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Lursque le document est trop grand pour dtre reproduit en un seul cliche, il est film6 d partir de Tangle sup^rieur gauche, de gauche d droite, et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre d'images ndcessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mdthode. irrata to pelure, n d □ 32X 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 REPORT OK TlIK CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY ROYAL COMMISSION %;, VOLUME I EVIDElSrCE OTTAWA PRINTED BY S. STEPHENSON & CO., CHATHAM, ONT. 1882. Hb MINUTES OP^ EVIDENCE UNDER OATH. fr I)ci)uty Minister of i{;illways iUKl Canals. Ottaw.v, I2lli August, ISSO. TOUSSAINT TIIUDEAU, Swuun and Examined: trudeaU By the Chairman : 1. Have you u posiliui in the Depai'lincii! of Jiiiilways and Canals? — I have. 2. What position ? — Deputy of the Minister. 3. Are the affairs of the Canadian Pacific liailvvay under llie control of j'oiir J)e2)artraent ?— They are. 4. I[o\v long have you been connected with this Dopa trnenl ? — Since its formation — 1 mean the JJeparlrnont of Railways, 5. In what Department were the affairs of this railw ly managed Jjeforo that? — The Department of Public Works. 6. Had you a position in that Department? — I had. 7. What position ? — I was the Deputy of the Minister. 8. Then you have been connected with the management of this rail- ^^"*:'",''^" '■,'^"'„„ .•' . . -^ ° nt'ctcd with man- av Since its inception ? — les. itufinfni oi this way Itailway since Its eoniiueiiceiiient. 9. The raanagemeni of this railway', I understand, was transferred ^ from the Department of Public Works to the Department of Kailways i\ud Canals ? — Yes. 10. And at the same time you were transferred to the Department of Eailways ? — 1 was. 11. Who has the management of the affairs of this railway next "r Kaiuva^rffext"* after the Minister himself — the inside management? — I have. after the Minister himself. 12. Are there any officers in your Department for the management other offlcera— of matters connected with thi railway separate from other works of <-'i>ipf K»i?ineer the same Department ? — Yes, we have the Chief Engineer of the Cana- *° *''" " dian Pacific Eailway and a staff. 13. As to matters of account, are there separate officers for this rail- At present no se- way or not ? — At this period there are no separate accountants. We HSts.'^*'M'n Taylor, have Mr. Taylor who is now auditing some of the accounts connected ^."'^J''"^' Pi'ewenfc with this railway, but the present expenditure is managed by the aged°by Account accountant of the Department. ^n^^,""! Depart- 14. Together with other works of the Department? — Yes. 15. Are you aware of the system in which the books are k< t? — Well, I am generally aware of it, but ^f you want much detailea infor- mation of that you should examine the Accountant of the Depai ^nent. TRUDEAU 2 James Piiiii, Ac- countant. Only on spocliil occiiHions report made us to state of books. f'rrtaln moneys placed In s. KUmh- Uif^'B hands when surveys were commenced, Aftera tlmebook- keeper appointed and all tlie ac- counts brought, ultimately under general system. Expenditures on Burveys. Accounts kept by Watt reported Kalisfactory. In 1877 when the new system was adopted, condi- tion of accounts not sat ist'actory. Impression in Department that monty was pro- perly applied but He can give you fuller ialbrination. 1 am aware that it is undex" a general system of double cntiy. 16. Who is the officer in chai-ge of tliat particular matter?— Mr. James Bain. 17. Are you inlornn-i regularly from time to time of the general result shown liy those books as it concerns the railway, or only on special occasions? — Jt is only on special occasions. There is no regular statoi I'eport made. 18. -No monthly or periodical report? — No. 19. Was there any change made in the system of keeping the accounts relating to this railway ? — When the surveys were commenced certain sums of money were placed in the handf of Mr. Fleming, and he had a staff of accountants keeping an account of the expenditure. After a certain ])eriod this system Avas changed and a book-keeper was appointed immedititely in the Department, and, after a few months, all the accounts were brought in under the general system of books kept by Mr. liain. 20. When was that change made ? — The expenditure on the survey commenced in June, 1871, and funds for that i)urpose were placed to the credit of Mr. P'leming up to 1875. A portion of such sum Ava» expended in British Columbia through Mr. George Watt, Paymaster at Victoria, from the 1st of Ma}', 1871, to the 1st of June, 1873. A further sum was paid through Mr. Wallace, Paj'master at Ottawa, from the Ist of June, 1871, to the 1st of March, 1873. From 1^75 to 1877 the expenditure was made through an accountant (Mr. EaJford) specially engaged for that purpose, and after that date by the Accountant of tho Department. 21. At the time of the cliange in the sj'stem of keeping the accounts are you aware whether the condition of the previous books was satis- fVictory to be Department?— The accounts kept by Mr. Watt have been audited by Mr. Taylor and have been reported by him to be satisfactory, lie has accounted for the money placed in his hands. 2i. I understand that there was a change, not only of Mr. Watt's accounts, but of all the accounts ; that sometime in 1877 a new system was adopted ? — Yes. 23. 1 am asking whether at that time it was the understanding, either with yourself, as Deputy Head, or some other party, that the condition of the accounts was satisfactory ?--It was not satisfactory. The vouchers were still in a very informal condition. 24. Why was it not satisfactory ? — Eecause the returns of vouchers had not been made suflBciently full. 25. Do you remember the amount which had not been properly vouched for — about the amount that was understood not to be properly vouched for? — I cannot state the amount. 26. Is there anybody who can? — Mi*. Taylor can. 27. Do you understand that I am asking not only as to Mr. \7att'» but as to other accounts ? — Yes. 28. Are you aware whether since the auditing of the accounts it is understood in the Department that this amount has been properly accounted for ? — The impression in the Department is that the money I ( .-,-t TRUDEAU a Air. chers % that vmicluTs not Bufflt'leiitly I'or- niiil. Pract Iro of Do- pai-liiicnl— Dfim- ly Minister iic- coinpaiiicil by Chief Ennlnoei' take eorrespoiid- eiice and report, to Mlnlst<'r anii!M)rilliiHl(' lo riilcf Kn^'liipcr iiiiulcjolutly ; MliiiNtur icsei'v- iiis; appoint nicnts lint iiiwavs coii- MiIlliiKClilef Kn- Noniomorandiirn of consuIlatiiiiiK fis to cllfiihility of suborUiiiiitu.s. Soparato !ic- I'ounts liad l)pcn kept for 7v ,.it'y spiiit on cxploi'ci- tions asdistln- jiulsliedfroni con- tracts. 49. Wcro tlie appoiniincn'H of onifiiiooivs and other ]ioi'sonH Hubor- diniito to him made by the J)op!irtniont on \U rosjjoiisibility or hy tiio Krijifinoer himsolt' on his rosp jnsihijity ? — Thoy wcro ni;i lo j )intiy. Tlio Mininlor reserved to hiin;olt' tlio appointment of eny;inoers, hut lie never did so witliout consiiliin^ the Chief Engineer as lo tho capa- hilitics of tlio indivi(iual — as to his compotenoy. 50. How were you awaro that he always cotisulted with the Chief Engineer? — Jk'eause in many cases 1 was ])resent. 51. In all casoy were you present? — Not in all cases. 52. As to those cases in which j'ou were not present, how ai't of ))ersons who had a))plied for employment, and the Chief Ivi- gitiocr, after looking through them and reating the recommendations made, or probiihly from his own knowledge of the individuals^ would recommend certain individuals to tho Minister. 55. Do you know whether there were exceptions to that course when suggestions came from the Jlinister to tho Engineer as to persons lo bo employed? — 1 have stated tho general rule followed. 56. Do 3'ou remember any exceptions ? — 1 do not at this moment. 57. I understood j'ou to say that separate accounts liad been kept for the money spent on explorations as distinguished from contracts and other labor ? — Yes. 58. As to information about tho manner of conducting tho o.^plora- tions and surveys, ought wo to enquire of persons in tho Department or in tho outside service? — Y''ou should ask the Engineers. 59. There aro some in the Department, are there not? — Y"es. 60. You would not be able to give us much information, I suppose, about explorations and surveys ? — I am not qualified for that. Contrnct Wo« 1« — T«leyrapb. First contract was for the con- struction of a te- legraph. Made on the 17th Oct., 1878. Contractors: .John W. Slfton, David Glass, Michael Fleming. 61. Is the subject of contracts more within tho knowledge of the Department ? — Yes. 62. Upon what subject was your first contract ? — The first contract was for the construction of a telegraph. 63. At what date was the contract made? — On the Itth October, 1874. 64. Have you the contract here ?— I have. 65. Give me the names of the contracting parties? — The contract was between John W. Sifton, of the City of London ; David Glass, of the same place, and Michael Fleming, of the Town of Sarnia, under the name of Sifton, Glass & Company. TRUDEAU iposo, iiC). Wii8 this* coDtrac't mado ut'tor uclvortising for tenders? — Yo.s. G7. Iliivo you a copy of tlio advertisement? — I have, antl now pro" diuo it. nS. Wore tluMO spocitication.s or any other infoi'niation ^iven to the public to enable them to judt^o of tho sort of work that would be lequired ? — Yea, I now [nodueo them. GO. Have yon the original tenders which were made for tho work ? — I have not got them here, but i can produce them. TO. Have ycu any memorandum with you showing the names and the substance of the tenders?—! now pr(jduce u schedule of the tenders. (Kxhibit No. 1.) 71. Who made this schedule? — This is a certificate that a number of tenders for tho construction of the telegi-aph were opened in my pre- sence and in the presenceof Sandford Fleming and F. Urauii, Secretary of tho Department. 72. This certiticato is at tho foot of the schedule? — Yes. 7.i. The tenders must have been opened before this schedule was made out? — Yes. 74. Do you you know who prepared this schedule — whether it was the Flngineer in Chief, for instance, or the Secretary ? — This appears to be tho writing of Mr. Fleming. 75. Have you any statement showing which was the lowest tender, the next lowest, and so on, in order, for section number one ? — Yes, and I now produce it. 70. What is meant by section one of the telegraph line ? — It is from Winnipeg to Selkirk and along tho railway line to Livingstone. 77. Then it is from Winnipeg to Livingstone via Selkirk? — Y''es. 78. Was that section one of tho telegraph lino tho subject of tho first contract ? — It was. 70. Please read from that statement the name of the person who makes the lowest tender? — R. Fuller, of Winnipeg. 80. Does tho work include only the construction of the line or the maintenance as well ? — The tender is for worK of two kinds, construc- tion and maintenance. 81. What is Mr. Fuller's tender for tho construction? — The rate per mile is $155 ; for the gross contract $38,750. 82. What is his tender for maintenance ?— $G,000 per annum. 83. For how many years ? — Five years. 84. Then, for construction and five years' maintenance his whole price is how much ?— $G8,750. 85. Who makes the next lowest tender ? — II. P. Dwight, of the North West Telegraph Company. 86. How much does he ask for construction ?— $225 per mile ; $56,250 for tho contract. 87. What is his offer for maintenance for five years? — $30 per mile per year. Cnii(i-nc( So. 1 — Tt'lt'Krii|>li> Tcmlors cnlk'd I'or OpnnetJ In pii'- wcm-e oC .S. Fli'Ul- ItiK, F. Hiniiii nnJ ol witness. Soliednlo prepur- ed liy Flfiniiu;. Section one, M'in- nipej; to Liviiij,'- stono viaStdkli'k. Tho subject of flist contract. Fnllor's wiis tho lowest tender, i.e. Jl'kj ^)er iiille, i-JS.T.jO for gross coutriict. itfi.noo per anniuu for ninlutcuiiuco. His whole price i()H,7JU. Next lowest ten- der, H.I'.Dwight's ?'>!') pernilie; 3.V5,- 250 lor the eon- tract. Maintenance : J30 per mile per year. TRUDEAU 6 Coiidnt-t Ko. I- Tel«Kra|>li. AKKittfnie: .fT/vKi 88. Was tlioi'D all o.sti mate of thai in tho ag^roi^ato ? — Voh, $7,500 inalU;fi;i,7-iu. 89. Then that is oqun' to $87,500 for iho maiiitonanco ; what is tho gross amount for con^ti'uction and maintc'iancc asUcd by Mr. Dwi^ht? —893,750. Wniuiic Si Smith 90. Who makes tho next lowest tender? — WaJdle & Smith, of Kini'- iicxl lowi'Mt ten- ^i_,, (li'iers. BlOn. J1(MW>(» lor con- ^iti'ucltitn, nuUn'nMianV'e', ^^- ^^'^^^ '^ ^*'*^''' P'"'^"'^ ^^'* ^^^ yours' maintenance ?— $3,000 per »;t,WH)|)eriiiiniiin; annuiu ; $15,000 for tho five vear.s. $l5,(Mj(). -^ III all $i'.'i,2rj(). 93. Then tlie gross amount for construction and maintenance for five years is liow much ?— $121,250. 94. Who makes the next lowest tender? — Sifton, Glass i Kloming. 91. What is their price for construction ?— $106,250. Noxl lowi'st ton- dcTcrs: Slflou (Jlass & FlfiMilnn. $l()7.8,'J0 for con- struction. Tlu'lr prlc(? for iniilntcniince a 95. AVhat is their price for construction ? — $107,850. 96. What is thair price for five yetvrs' maintenance ? — My recollection sui)ject of siib«(>- Ci it just now is that this was a .subject of correspondence. (iiuMit corrcsixHj- lence. 97. Have you the correspondence ? — I have not. 98. Have you the original t'lidor made by Mr. Fuller?— I have. (Exhibit No. 2.) 99. Have you the original tender of Mr. Dwight? — Yes. (Kxhibit No. 3.) 100. Have you the original tender of Waddle & Smith'? — Yes. (Ex- hibit No. 4.) ' • 101. Have you tho original tender of Sifton & Glass? — Yes. (Kx- hibit No. .5.) 102. In this tender of Sifton, Glass & Go's there is no allusion to maintenance of tho lino ? — No. 103. You say that was a subject of correspondence; have you any correspondence amounting to a tender for that branch of the work ?— At present I am not able to produce that original correspondence, but 1 think I can do so at a future time. Hlfton.GliiHs&Co. get the contract. No objection to Mr. Fuller's char- acter or standing. Contract awarded 106. Then the quostion of his getting the contract depended upon .skieratVolTs?'*'*'"' pecuniary considerations ?— It did. lOT. It was not intended that any other person should get it at a higher price than he was willing to take it? You say it was a mere matter of pecuniary consideration ? — The reason is given in the note. 108-109. I am asking you whether it was intended any person else should take it at a higher price than he was willing to take it ? — Mr. Fuller offered to do it, and he had a certain figure. Fuller Informed 110. Can you explain why Fuller's tentier was rejected ? Did he the"**Hne^*^w a's decline to carry out the con trad at his original terms, or had you any taken north of roason to sujiposo that he would not carry out his original tender? — I 104. Those are the gentlemen who got the contract ? — Yes. 105. Was there, so far as you know, any objection to Mr. Fuller's Mr. Fuller's char- eharactor or standing ?— No, there was none'. wo wo a r del rur of acr adt TRUDEAU ♦If Si vvoultl !^ay llml tho work was otVered to Fuller on Iho eotnlition that ho would dopoHit a certain 8um of money as security, and as appears from a report signed by Mr. Fleming ho was iidormod by Fiillor that his ten- tifiy or Ixty thousand ilollars referred to by Mr. Fleming art, . thiiiU, m^ant to apply to more ♦han one section. 118. I am asking about section numbc one. "What would the S')0,000 added to his otler make it, assuming that he meant tho whole $60,000 to be added to his offer tor section number one? — It would be 8128,750. 114. Then his increased offer for tho whole of the construction and maintenance for ffve years amounted to $128,750? — Yes, assuming that lie askod for tho whole $60,000 to bo applied to Section one. 115. Was it considered that tho Government could make bettor terras than that ? — It was. 116. And was that tho reason for rejecting his offer? — Yes. 117. Then the next lowest being Mr. Dwight, was he ottered tho con- tract ? — He was. 118. Have you any original documents showing tho reason why he did not take it? — I have no original document with me, but I think I can prcduce it. 119. Have you any original document on the subject between tho Department and Mr. Dwight? — No, but I can give the correspondence in the form of a return to the Commission. 120. In addition to the prices called for by tenders, some terms as to time of completion wore asked for? — Yes. 121. What terms did Fuller^oi.v^r ? — He offered to complete it within the year 1874. 122. What was Dwight's offer on that subject ?—Dwight's offer was to complete it on the 1st of September, 1875. 123. What was the offer of Waddle & Smith? — Five hundred miles a year. 124. What was the offer of Slfton k Glass? — To complete it against the 2ind November, 1874. 125. Do you know whether the contractors asked for an extension of time?— They did. 126. When?— In a letter dated 9th of July, 1875. 127. How long did they ask for?— They stated that it would he quite out of their power to complete the work by the time named in Coiltrart Kn. 1— T«Krnph. RiiUtii; Motintiiiu he would rei|Ulrrt »2ii iin acre Tor all t li I' iiei^cHsarv . Waddle A SmltJi at tlie rate of 50) mlle.s a year, Slfton A Glass by the 22nd Nov., 1S7J. But In a letter they Jisked lor an extension of tirno% TRUDEAU 8 Contract Ko. 1— Tel«|[Kr«|>ii> their contract, and they asked for an extension up to the 30th ol' October, 1876. 128. Would you look at the contract and pco if the time named therein for completing the work is the same as that named in their tender ? — The time named for the completion in the contract is the 30th ofOctober, 1875. 129. That is nearly a year longer than the time mentioned in their tender ? — Yes. 130. So that the contract gives them hotter terms than the tender They thorcforo got bettor terins *"v. -^v^ ^...i.^ v.^/ v,^.. v. .^v^i, i, than they askeri calls for On that fcubicct ? — Yes. for in tender. •* Dwlght wanted modifications and Department treated that as Impossihle. Waddle A Smith, the next lowest, ■were willinK to take tlie work. Tenders to have 131. Are you of the opinion that Dvvight declined to take the conti-act, or that he was refaned the contract — you say you have not g(i' the original correspondence with you? — My impression at this moment is that Mr. Dwight, while perfectly willing to take the contract wanted certain modiflcations to be made which rendered it impossible to give it to him. 132. And that the Government declined to contract on the terms offered ? — Yes. 133. Then the next lowest tender was from Waddle & Smith. Da you know whether they were willing to take the contract ? — I can only infer from the fact that they tendered, that they were willing to take the work. 134. Your opinion is that they were willing ? — Yes. 135. Have you any means of knowing now when tenders wore to bo to2"ua'^Udr^8''i I'eceivod by the Department for this work ? — The advertisement said ' ' "up to the 22nd of July, 1874. 130. Look at the tender of Si fton & Glass, and say what time that was received by the Department ? — There is a stamp on it marked July 22nd. 137. Is that the last day named ? — Yes. 1S8. You find that stamp on part of the envelope attached to the ■ tender ? — Yes. Sifton, Glass it 139. Ard from that are you of the opinion that it was received on a.'s. received on ti,m ,ij,y ?_Yes. that day. J Practice to at- 140. Is it the piactico to attach portions of the envelope to all the to tenders!"^"^ tenders ?— Yes, as much as we can. Xone attached to 141. Is it attached to Fuller's tender ? — I ilo not see it in Fuller's Fullers, nor to pontract other three. l.uuuav.t. 142. Is there any envelope showing when Dwight's tender was received for section one ? — It has none. 143. Has Waddle & Smith's ?— No. 144. Are you aware of any special reason for attaching the envelope to the tender of Sifton & Glass ? — There is no reason. Alterations inS. 145. Dc you notice any alterations in their tender imm the tender aa G. Aco's. tender. [^ originally stood ?— There are. Beduce their in- -./,,, , , . ••,nmi i^l lended offer from 146. Are thov to reduce the pnce or to raise it r — Ihey reduce the r.'.;'«(OT4!t2, wood; • $'M} to 18!t per pin-tr. mile prairie. i I ori^ our riv( §49 of I Yes TRUOEAU Coiitrm-.i No. I'^ 14Y. In what respect? Will yon state it in each instance as it was originally, and as it was altered ? — It was originally written thus : " In our estimate we placed the wood line from Fort Garry to Winnipeg river, and from Fort Garry to Fort Polly at S529." This is altered to 8-192 per mile; also "The prairie land within a distance of 250 miles of Fort Garry at $209 per mile " was changed to $189 per mile. 148. In the document which you produce as the tender which reached No positive oflVp you on July 22nd do you tind any positive offer for section number nl'therr lomior!' ^ one ?— No. 140. That document is in eflect a tender for the whole lino ? — Yes. 150. I think they mention there the rates for this pai'ticular section Kates for soctioit upon which they base their olfer for the whole line ? — Ves. i)ase^V)V oiVer for*" whole line. 151. Is that the only allusion to section one in the document? — Yes. 152. Can you tell by that portion of the envelope attached to the contract where the letter was mailed ? — No. 153. Where is the letter dated from ?— The letter is dated at Ottawa Lotter date.i ot- on the 22nd of July. Uwa,2-Jud.iuiy. 154. What is the post-mark on it ? — There is no postmark on it at all. No post mark. 155. Then there is no evidence herewith the document that it passed through the post-office ? — No. 15G. Have you yet obtained any of the original correspondence with Sifton, Glass & Co. as to the maintenance of the line ? — Yes, but I have not yet assorted it. 157. Can you give any reason why AVaddle & Smith did not get the Contract otriM-cii contract in preference to Sifton, Glass &f^leming? — Waddle & Smith sJ„inf for section were offered the contract for section number five, but they failed to •'>; tiiey faiieaa-i „ ..• ' ./ to security. jirocure t?ecurities. 158. When did that happen ? When did they fail to procure securi- ties? — Section number five became contract number four later. 159. You say thnt the contract foi number five was offered to Waddle & Smith, but that they failed to give security ? — Yes. IGO. When was it known to the Department that they had failed to give security ? — On the 21st of October, 1874. 161. That was the reason for passing over their tender and giving the contract to Sifton, Glass >k, Fleming ? — Yes. 1G2. What is the date of the contract to Sifton, Glass & Fleming ? — Contrnct to sir- The 17th of October. lad^iuhoct.'''' 163. How do you account for a reason which occurred on the ilst ^^^j*^"^',^,^ posmon* afiecting a transaction which took place on the 17th ? — I can only ac- of airairs wiis count for it by supposing that it was known that that was the position, i^etu^"weiratteV- and that these letters were exchanged afterwards to record the event, wards exchanged '^ to record the event. 164. Then you think it was known to the Department before the 21 st of October ? — I may say that before that the Departm<'nt had been making efforts to get this information. There was some correspondence with Waddle, and ho was always promising that he would furnish tho security, but he was not doing it. TRUDEAU 10 Contract IVo. 1 — Telegraph. It was eon|crii|ili« if Sifton GlavsACo. get l>y coiitriKit .>20,i)(H) with pro- fits for rivo years' luuiuteuunce. 184. Then, on the same basis, Sifton & Glass would want $32 per mile without profits ? — Yes. 185. How much would that increase the aggregate of the offer of Sifton, Glass & Co. for construction and maintenance ?— $20,000. 186. What would that make their whole tender?— $147,850 without profits. 187. Have you any reason to know whether the profits are actually a considerable amount or not in the working of this line ?— Wo have no reports on that question in the Department. 188. Can you sta^o whether this work has been fully performed? — I would refer you to the engineers for information on that point. 189. You are not able to say yourself? — Not so well as tho engi- neers. 190. Are you aware of tho amount that has been paid up to lliis time on this contract?— Yes, $119,085.29. 191. Do you know how much further is expected to be paid on tho contract ? — I have not got the information here. 192. That includes how much for construction ?— $101,800 for con- struction, and $17,285.2t>. 193. At what date was (hat ? — This is up to this montli. 194. When did the allowance for maintenance begin?— On the lino from Winnipeg to Selkirk, 22.15 miles, on January 1st, 1875 ; on tho line between Winnipeg and Fort Polly, 294.36 miles, on August 1st, 1876, less two mont'^s not maintained ; the line crossing Roi River from 3l8t March, L ,6, $180. 195. From Winnipeg to Se'kirk— is that moneyed out at $16 a mile ? — Yes. 19!>. And tho other at the same rate? — Yes. 107. What is tho amount up to the Slst of March ?— $15,306,72. Wailillfi it Smith estlinatod that profits would ro- (iiice the charge for malnteuame by one-half. On this hasis Sif- ton, Glass A Co'a tender $14",S.'i() No rci)0rt as yet as to profits on this Section. $Il!>,(H).2!t paid up to present on this contract. $101,800 for con- struction and *17,2«.5.2!) for niaintenan(!e up to present inontli (August, WSO.) Dates wlien cliarge for innln- teuance began. This Is calculated at 4 lit a mile Up toSlsl March, TRUOEAU 12 Contract No. 1 — TelrKraplit i8t August, iwfi, 108. From what date (loos he chai'go maintaininc; the whole lino? n^r'^^^'i'i.'? fnT' -The l«t of August, 1&76. commences. 199. Was it finished then ? — " do not know. 200. Is there any other matter about this contract number one that you would like to explain ? — I want to consult more clearly the corres- pondence, and see what it was that led us to pass ovei* Waddlo & Smith'* tender. P.iimor in ciuirKe 201. You spoko of tho system of keeping accounts in the De|iiirtmen !iuS^"tojmi", ^^ (lifferent times, but you omitted the peViod between Juno, 1873 an^ 1^7'..' ' ' 1875. Who had chai'ge of the accounts at that time? — 1 think M^** Palmer. "al Ottawa, Friday, 15th August, 1880. The examination of Mr. Ti'udeau resumed : By the Chairman : 202. My last question to you yesterday asked if there was any other matter about this contract number one which you would like to explain. Have you now any additional information to give ? — I may state that tenders for tho construction of tho telegraph were called for up to the 26th of July, 1874. '1 hey were opened on the 7th of August, 1874. For section one Fuller was the lowest. He refused the work at the price named in his tender. Mr. Dwight was the second lowest ; he also declined. The third lowest, Waddlo k Smith, had been ottered on the 12th of August, another section, number five, from Fort Garry to Nipigon, but they did not give security. Had Waddle & Smith made their deposit for section five promptl}-, it would have been a good reason to offer them section one. On the fifth of October Mr. Fleming reported that Mr. Dwight declined to execute the work on the ground that their price did not include clearing of woodland. Waddlo & Smith had then been six weeks preparing to give security on section five without having been able to accomplish it. Tho fourth lowest tender, Sifton, Glass k Co., were then called upon to take section number one. 203. Yesterday in question number 107, and alluding to Fuller's tendei", I asked whether it was intended that any other person should got it at a higher price than he was willing to take it. Your answer was given : " tho reason is given in the note." To what note did you allude ? — The note referred to will be found at pages 130 and 131 of tho Blue Book entitled "Contracts let by tho Department of Public Works from the 1st of July, 18H7, to tho 27th of March, 1878." Cou?»pif niitiioriz- ^^''^^ ^^^^'0 3'f>u the Order in Council authorizing tho contract with ini; tiic contrnpt Sifton, Glass & Co ? — There is no Order in Council. with yuton, Glass ' & Co. The pra?tico Is to 205. IS it tho practice of tho Department when a tender which is not rnC()iincii^umier *^^ lowost is accepted that a report to Council is required? — Yes. Tenders called for lip to the iJ()th .Inly, 1874. Opened 7th Aug., IK74. Fuller lowest for Soction 1, but re- fused work at price named In tender. Dwight also declined. Waddle & Smith olTcred Section 5 hut did not put up security. Dwight's ground for refusal— his price did rot in- clude clearing woodland. .Sifton, Glass* Co. called upon to take ttec, 1. like circumstan- ces. 20G. And is it then acted on without any Order in Council ? — No. 207. Then there is an Order in Council ? — There is no Order in Council in this case. i 13 TRUDEAU 208. Is it the usual iiruclicc ? — It is the usual practice, but it was not done in this case. 200. This was an exception to the usual practice ? — It was. 210. Do you i'eol sure that there was no Ord(3r in Council about '*Sif'ion tS: Glass's contract ? — I have not found one. 211. Please road the memorandum on the back of tender, Exhibit N 0. 5 ? — "This tender not being the lowest, a report to Council is '•required. John AVaddle & Co. are the lowest, but section five has " already been awarded to them, and it appears to have been determined '• already not to award two sections to one tirm." 212. Who signs tiiat?— Mr. Tissault. 21 5. What is his position in tie Department? — lie is our hnv cloik. 214. You see a lower memorandum on tliat tender? — Yes. 21;'). Please read it? — It is in French, and, translated into Engli>h, reads thus : "Procure the Order in Council which gives the work to " Sifton, Glass it Co. lor section one." £l(i. Do you say you have no i'ecord of that order having been ])ro- cured ? — I have not found it. 217. What time generally elapses between tlio time lixei f()r i-ecoiv- iiig tenders for work in the Department and the opening oftlie ten lei's? — The tinie required to allow the mails to come in, so that any acci- dental delay of the trains may not interfere with the arrival of tenders ; that might be one or two days. 218. That is the usual time allowed between the time fi.xed for receiving and opening tenders, one or two days ? — Yes. 219. What was the time fixed in this case ? — The time was from the 2(5th of July to the 7th of August — twelve days. 2i0. Do you know wh}^ the time was extended in this case beyond the 1 :.. -1 period? — I have no record of ii. 221. Do you know ? — I do not recollect it. 222. Will you read from Sifton, Glass & Go's tender tho^e words which make any offer to build, without relating the special conditions; I wish to ascertain whether his offer to build relates only to the line as a whole? — He says: " Wo, the undersigned, residents of the Province " of Ontario, make the following proposal to the Government of the " Dominion : Wo will do the whole of the work along the wliolo of the " proposed line, including all the sections thereof, and comprising the " finding of the material for and the erection of the telegraph line, the " clearing of the roadway, the preparation of the pack trail and all "other matters pointed out in the advertisement and information for " parties pioposing to tender." 22.3. Is there any other part of that offer which points to the build- ing of that section one alone ? — No. 224 Did it happen that persons offering to build the whole line specified the times at whi*!h they would finish particular sections of it in any case ? — It did. Contrni-t No. I— T<'l<>^l'n|tll. In lliis ciiso ex- ct'ptlotial action taliun. Mcni'iraiulnni of liiw cliTk point- intr (ml tliat i >rili'r in l.'onncil was lu'i'essary. AiKiitii'V niomo. ill l''ri'ncli ilircct- intx lliiil, I )r(l('r in Ciaincll sliould l)(J ll|'()(iUC( (J. (>n(> or two (liiys usually allovid liclorc o|>('niMic teniliMN to '.'iv time lor ni iil.^ (O come in. on tills occasion IJ (lays elapseii. Does not recollect wliy time thus extended. Substance of offer l>y Sifton, OlussA Co. No olfer for ."^oo- tion 1 ulono made by S., G. & Co. TRUDEAU 14 Contract Ko. I — Allnn McLean, Ibc first person who tcmleri'd for 8ec;tiou 1. Other tenders. Si n on, ( J hiss & Co. willioiil a price. Up to 7th AiiKiist, i.e., after the lime for rect'ivlnfj; ten- ders, the schedule prepared by the officers did not Intend to show that Slfton, Glass & Co. had named any price for .Sec- tion 1. 225. Then tho mention of particular times for finishing particular section.^ is consistent with the fact that the tender rehites only lo tho whole line?— Yes. 226. The certificate you produce dated August 7th, and signed by yourself, Mr. Fleming and Mr. Braun, relating to the opening of tenders, shows different particulars as to the several tenders. Will you explain what WHS meant to be shown by that generally? Was it intended to convey the substance of each tender as it relates to each section ? — Yes. 227. Give me the name of the first person on the list who lender© for the construction of section one ? — Allan McLean. 228. Does he name a price for construction ? — Yes. 229. Give me the next name for the construction of section one ? — ]I. P. Dwight. 230. Does he name a sum for the construction ? — He does. 2.31. What is the next name ? — Parmalee; he names a price. 232. What is tho next name? — McKenzie, Grier & Co. ; they give a price. Tho next is Waddle k Smith ; the\- give a price. The next is Humphrey . That was after the time for receiving tenders had expired ? — Yes. 240. When was it first regarded by the Department that they had made an offer to construct section one ? — The tenders, after they were opened, were referred to Mr. Fleming for his report, and on the 10th of August he reported and stated that " sheet number one shows that " there are fifteen proposals for section number one. Fort Garry and " Fort Polly." 241. Does sheet number one name Sifton, Glass t& Co. ? — It does. 242. Then, on the 10th of August, for the first time the Department understood that Sifton, Glass & Co. had tendered for section one ? — That is the dale of Mr. Fleming's report. 1 --■ .•J ■ ■: Yes. 16 TRUDEAU vecl any I?— Yes. ^ey had 3y were 10th of rs tliat |rry and oes. ; .,: 243. Can you ni.me any earlier date than that when the Department HO unclerritooJ ''' — 1 «.lo not think that before that the tenders had been bufficioutly analyzed to enabled the Department to form an opinion. 244- Do you think they have been sufficiently analyzed now ? — They were given to Mr. Fleming for the purpose of being analyzed, and Mr. Fleming's report was admitted as an analysis of them. 245. You told us that on the 16th September, 1874, Mr. Fleming had reported that Fuller wauted from 850,000 to S60,000 n»oro than the amount of his tender for construction, did you not ? — Yes. 246. At that date (16th September, 1874) was there any document which assumed to be a tender for anything more than construction from Sifion, Glass & Co. ? — The tender received from Sifton, Glass & Co. btated that the price was $1,290,000; this includes maintenance. 247. But that was for the whole line? — Yes. 248. At that date (16th September, 1874) was there any document Avhich assumed to be a tender for anything morj than construction from Sifton, Glass & Co. as to section one alone ? — I am not aware. 249. Then, at that time the only matter upon which Fuller and Sif- ton, Glass & Co. had both tendered as to section one, was for construc- tion ? — Fuller tendered by sections. 250. I am speaking of section one ; they, that is Sifton, Glass &. Co., had not then tendered for the maintenance, had they ? — Fuller tendered lor maintenance, and Sifton, Glass & Co. had tendered for the whole, including maintenance, 251. I am speaking of number one by itself? — Sifton, Glass & Co. had nothing for section one. 252. Wgre you in a position to compare the tondei'S as to main ance of section one, at that time, made by Fuller and Sifton, Glaf Co. respectively ? — No. C'Ollti'MCt Xo. I — Tt'lfKraplit On 1(11 hSopt., 1871, !S. Kloinint; re- ported Kiiller wtuilcd *.5(i,(H)0or ^tKMMMI more than li'iulcr for oon- structlon. I'p to tliat date the tender receiv- ed from Sltton, Glass A Co. stateil price for the Avhole line ^•1,2IHI,()'(). ten- ass «S: 253. Then, the only matter upon which you could compare their i da- tive value was the construction, as far as it relates to section one? — Yes. 254. As to that matter, which was the most favorable to the Govern- medt at that time ? Give the figures. For instance, what was Mr. Fuller's highest offer at that time— the 16th September, 1874 — includ- ing the increase for clearing ? — $98,750. 255. What was Sifton, Glass & Co.'s offer for the same matter — that is the constructio-" ?— Sheet number one, prepared by Mr. Fleming, states that the gross construction is ? 107,850. 256. That is the same sheet which shows Mr. Fuller's to be $38,750 ? -Yes. 257. And by adding the $60,000 for clearing to that you arrive at the $98,750 of which you have spoken ?— Yes. 258. Then, at that time (16th September, 1874) for construction alone of section number one, which was the most favorable offer to the Government? — Mr. Fuller's. At that time the- tenders of Fuller and yifton, Glass & Co. as to main- tenanee of 8ec. 1 alone eouki not be compared. Fuller's highest offer for construc- tion and clearing up to 16th Sept., 1«74, |«8,750. Sifton, Glass & Co's offer fl07,S50. TRUDEAU 16 1! <-'oiitrnct No. 1— For I'onsf ruction alone Fuller's tlic jiiost fuvoral)lo oiler by i$!t,lO(l. I'p t,ol(lth Hppt. Sliion, UliiNS A Co. Iiml nmde no olli'i' to niiilntain .Sec. 1 alone. Fullf r'H oti'er to inaintilln Sec. 1. - il,iHJ(i lor live >-ears, In all ;|i;io,iii)i). J59. By how mucli ?— $9,l(i0. Sirton, (ilass it t'o ask In adtli- Hoii to conslrue- lion price 51"")*^)''. ."•lii per mill' i)er -in!Hiin wil li i)i'o- tit.s IVjr niaintiiu- nnce. If their profits for Jive years were valued at any- thing more than itWOO their tender would still be }ii>;iier than Ful- ler'.s. Scales thus turn- <'d by correspou- donce with 8lf- ton, Glas.s A Co. Department un- derstood that Fuller requested ills prices to be ■changetl, but that Siftou, Glass & Co's explanations ■were explana- tions of his ten- der without sug- gesting increase of price. 2Gi). At that time Sifton, Glass & (Jo. b ul inado no otloi- Id muiMtain section ono alone ? — Not alone. 201. How much at that time was Fuller's oiler to maintain soctioii one alone ?— 8'J,000 for live year.s, in all §;30,000. 2()2. Was it by ncf,'Otiations snb.'»equcnt to that ])eriod that an olTor was procured from Sifton, Glass & Co. at a lower tigure for the main- tenance V — 1 prefer answei-ing that question later. 203. Have you any original documents showing an olfer from SiAon, (J lass & Co. and the terms up )m which they would maintain section number one alone? — I have a letter from Mr. Fleming dated 13th Octo- ber, 1874, whirh relates to the subject. 204. Will you put in ciLlier the original or a copy of tliat loiter ?— 1 will. 2')5. Doo-i it. state that Sifton. (rlasf=! <& Co. charge something a Iditional to their construction price — S1U7,850— for maintenance of the line? — Yes. 206. How mucli extra do thoy ask ? — Sixteen dollars per mile per annum. 267. With or without profits ?— With profits. 263. At the time of getting that letter the Department under.-^toxl that Fuller's tender for tho construction was §08,750, including the increase for woodland, and $30,000 for five years' maintenance ; that is, for construction alone Sifton Glass & Co's tender was $9,100 over Fullcr'.s. AVould this new offer of Sifton, Gla.ss & Co's turn the scales in their favor ? — Yes. 269. How much ? — Nine hundred dollars. 270. But they got the profits, which Fuller did not ask for ? — Y'os. 271. So that if their profits were valued at anything over $900 their tender would still be higher ? — Yes. 272. Have you any idea of the estimate of the Department as to the profits ? — We have no report on the subject. 273. Then this turning of the scales was made by correspondence in October ? — Y'es ; it maj^ have been before October. 274. You say that was the first intimation ? — It was reported in October. 275. And was only communicated to the Department by letter from Mr. Fleming ?—Y^es. 276. Was it upon that turning of the scales that the contract was awarded to Sifton & Glass ? — The request by Fuller was that his prices should be changed, and the explanations by Sifton were understood to be merely explanations of his tender without increasing his price. 17 TRUDEAU I to maintuih itain soc'tiiMi that an oll'cr I )v tlio mam- ; • fcom Sif'on, * fitain iscctiuii ,; ed 13lh Octo- s & attoQ riiis 111 V Contract Wn. 1— T«-lcgrn]ili, 277. Do you moan understood by tho Department? — Yen. 278. J)oes that report or letter of Mr. Fleming's recommend a.uy action? — It does not. 279. You Hay that Mr Flemini^ ppeiUs only of tho oxphnuition of siiton, y either House of Parlia- ment ? — Yes. 294. Did you prcpaio a report for either House ? — Yes. 295. Was it printed ?— No. 29fi. Hsive you that report in manuscript ? — We have. 207. Is it connected in tho return with other sections? — The report* apply to all the sections. 298. Will you produce it as the report called for? — Yo3 ; I now produce it (Kxhibit No. 6). » 299. AVhat was the subject of the second contract? — It was the coa- struciion of a telegraph line from Livingstone to Kdmonton. 300. What is the date of tho contract ?— 30th October, 1874. 301. What is the name of the contractor ? — Eichard Fuller. 302. Was that one of the sections advertised when you asked for tenders? — It was not advertised as a section from Livingstone to Ed- monton. 303. Was it a part of any of the sections advertised for ? — It was. 3C4. Apart of which section advertised for? — Of section numbex* three. 30.5. As advertised, what was section number three ?— It was from Fort Garry to a point in the longitude of Edmonton. 306. Have you a li.st of the tenders which were submitted as to that section ? — Yes ; I now produce it (Exhibit No. 7). 307. This is attached to several sheets as, I notice, showing the tenders for all the sections separately ? — Yes. 308. Mr. Fuller appears to have submitted the lowest tender for the whole of section number three ? — Yes. 309. Did section three include originally section number one? — Yes. 310. Then cf.n you explain why did he not get the contract for the whole of section three? — It was because for that portion of number three which corresponds with section one he wanted a higher price. 19 TRUDEAU C'oiitrn' t Vn. -J— 'IcIcKrniili, 311. How much hit^licr? — Fifty oi" sixty thousand dollars. ,'U2. That was not fonsidorod to bo «<» ?'JU>,Oi)0, whereas tho tenders accepted amounted to 8225,100. w\u.'■l^'\^!Is^iKv^! 313. Whv was it coir-idored proper to accept tho tenders which were accepted foV $225,100, insteail of this inc.oased offer at $iU;,0()0 ?— Jjecauso the acceptance of Mr. Fuller's tender involved a charii^c in tho amount. 311. Fs that in your Department held to be a reason for i"efiisin<; a svich m iimu-o contract, if a man adds anylhinij to his first tender after it is sent in? — prn,!|'i(M''oi''i')«-^ The practice is that a tender should not bo altered after it is sent in. imrtnu-Mt. 315. Do you mean that tho Department will not recognize tlioni if they are altered? — No. 31C. That is the general practice? — Yes. 317. And do you give that as a reason for this lower otfor having been refused — because it involved an alteration after the tenders were received ? — Yes. 318. Do you know any reason why this should apply to tho second Tiiinks otror to contract, and not to tho first contract? You will, ))orhaps, remoml)er fwrnVinu-'imiioo that in Octolior there was something added to Sifton, (llass !!''!:'"'f' 1 otn -IP • i 'J r I Ai \ -L 111 U'lKlcrol Siitoii, tender — $10 a milo for mamtenance c — I am not suie that it was added c^inssit co., con- in th'if WAV triiiy to nili'sol- mtnaiwa}. Department. 311'. Speaking of contract number two, you sa\' that was awarded to Contract No. •_' Fuller. How many miles did his contract embrace nominally ?— That auy .Th** mik^s'."'"" contract embraced nominally 500 miles. 320. What was the sum agreed to be paid on construction in contract For constniction number two— Fuller's contract ?— $117,250. *ii7,j.-.(Mii;ie.^ion. 321. And how much for maintenance for five years? — According to ^Tm/ihi lor main- his tender $05,000. ' t.nancc. 322. Which makes a total of ?— $180,250. Totiil, tl,Sj,'J.'i(i. 323. And what had you previously agreed to pay in tho aggregate $i(i7,s.'>o nj^iecd to for tho balance of section three to Sifton (llass c\: Co. under the name [ii'al'i''y co.'foT' construction of Spo. l.nnd • 1 '27,8.50 for niuintcnancu l)e.sules protlts. of seiitionono? — $107,850. 324. And tho maint'jnance ?— 8127,850. 325. That was besides profits to Sif\on ? — Yes. 32b'. Then, exclusive of profits, what had you accomplished by those Tims Jnio.ooo, two contracts as the price for the whole of section three including con- [.ost'Ifr^co'iTstru't- struction and maintenance ? — We were getting the work executed for \ug am\ main- $310,100, including maintenance. ^«'"'"''' ^''- ^• 327. Will you look at tho statement of Mr. Fleming respecting ones. Fleming's of the rejected tenders, by Thompson, who offers to do the whole of his genu'Thomnson^s portion of the line, section three; lot us know what his oflfer was ? — tender for the In the statement prepared by Mr. Fleming Mr. Thompson's tender is exciusile of reprobented as being at the rate of $280 a mile, giving a gross sum for offl«es, &c. construction of $22t>,000, offices and other matters not included. For the maintenance $11,200 per annum, which for five ycare gives $56,000, TRUOEAU SO Cniitrnpt No. 3- 1rl<-|)(i-«pli> I I Thiif Is f ;t(),(t(K) inliiiiM CDMt or otilccs, IcsH (hall tlic price eon- tract cd (or. 'I'hoinpsoii pri)- piiscK t(t llnlsti Hccs. riaiid 111 two years ; Hcc«. 1, l;, and :! In three years, ami Sec. I in lour years from (lie date of. contrae(. No od'er made 'Dioiupsoii. to Fleming's sche- dule showed Thompson's ten- der to bo all.'-lHi per annum for maintenance. The actual tende' Is li per cent, of cost In woodland and .') per cent, in prairie per an- num. Further particu- lars of tender. :!.> li' III nnd thia added to the })rovioin «ijm ^ives $280,0J0. Time of completion three yeurs. 328. Then uh fiii' ns constnicliDn iiml umitileiiiuuio ai-o concoi'tuMl ho oflbfs to do thin work tor 8:i80 ()l)(), wilhuiit olHces 'f — Vcs. :{2!). That Im 830,000 loss than the two coiitractH which yoii m: (K-?— Vos. 330. J)o you know whothor thai $30,000 waH coii>i(ici'o 1 to ho the value, or lot>s than the value, ot the oftiou.s ? — 1 must refer yuu to the engineer for that information, I am uiiahio to answer it. 331. Vou mention that ho leiuierod to complete this in tlirec years, and it i.s so stated in Mr. Fleming's certificate ? — ^'es. 332. Have you looked at Thompsun'd origiiitil ten lor, or a cujiy of it? — Yes. 333. Will you read what the tender .say. s about t' o time of comple- tion ? — iLsa^ys: " Inasmuch as the Parliament is uite silent on the "question of time for the C()m])letion of the lino, (l of sections of il, " ] have decided to submit the following which, however, may, perhaps, " bo modified upon comparing with the DepartmcMit. Suctions five aiul " si.K in two years, sections one, two and three years, and section four " in four years from the date of contract." iJ34. Then the time that he names for this section throe appears to have been tixed upon the condition that he should get tiv and si.k ? — 1 have given the exact words of the tender. 33.5. Was there any otter made to Thompson, that you know of, about this section ? — Not that 1 am aware of. 33G. Will you produce Thompson's original tender ? — Yes. [Exhibit No. 8.] 337. In the schedule to which you have referred, relating to section three, Mr. Fleming appears to show Thompson's tender to be §11,200 per annum for maintenance ? — Yes. 338. Look at the original tender and tell mo what his actual offer for maintenance is, and read it? — It is as follows: "[will keep the " lino«i in repair for one and one-half percent, of the cost in wooJland, " and five per cent, in prairie per annum." 339. Then his tender for maintenance depends upon the price he asks for construction ?— Yes. 340. What price does he ask for construction through woodland ? — Eight hundred and eighty dollars per mile on section number one. He does not state his price for woodland on section three. 341. And for prairie ? — For prairie on section three, $280 a mile. 342. Does his price at 82^0 a mile extend to the whole of the prairie on section three or only to that portion beyond Fort Pelly ? — Only to that portion beyond Fort Pelly, which is 550 miles. 343. Have you calculated exactly what his tender asks for mainten- ance ? — Yes. 344. What is the gross sum that he asks for maintenance ? — 810,777.60 per annum. inL' li: iii xnpU'tion •erncil ho m:ili. .'{H. Ari'l for five yearri ?— 853,887.50. 340". Til is ncUled to Iuh price for constitution, i\n staged in Mi", Klem- inif'.s ostinmto, would givo wiiat total ? — $227,887.50. 347. TliiH would appear, by that cHtiniato, to ho some $32,000 Iobh than tho two contracts that you have accomplished ? — Yos. 318. But this estimate of Mr. Fleming's as to tho construction is s". Fifniinu's csti- ai)pHrontly erroneous ?— Yes. '"'H'' «■''.. .icons. 34!>. The price for construction as really asked by Thompson amounts Thomimoii's a considerahlo sum over that ? — Yes. MKilortim'ii Ui to 3.')0. How much larger would tho sum be that was really demundod by Tiiompsou upon an exact calculation '{ — SI 14,750. llOHO fdutriu'ti'il for. f complc- it on the ons of il, ', perhaps, is tivo uiiil iclioii tour ip pears to Uli Sl.K ? — V of, about [b:xhibit to section 811,200 ual offer ceop the wooiland, price he dland ?— nber one. mile. le prairie Only to mainten- lance ? — OrT.\w.\, Saturday, 14th August, 1880. IIenhv X. RuTT.vN, sworn and examined : RUTTAN. Snrv«'.VN"E.'i- Itlorntioii. Civil Entfliiucr. Bi/ the Chairman : 351. What is your occupation ? — Civil Engineer and contractor. 352. Have you been in the employment of the Government of Canada at any time? — I was in tho employment of tho Government in 18U8 on tho Intercolonial Railway. 353. After leaving the Intercolonial Eailway, were you employed in any way in connection with the Pacific Railway ? — I was employed in 1S74 on an exploration north of Lake Superior, and in 1875 on an oxploratoi-y survey between the Kay lakes and Root River. 354. During the first period had you charge of a party, and in what capacity? — WLen 1 left the Intercolonial Railway I was in charge of section six as Division Engineer of the Intercolonial Railway. 355. And on the Pacific Railway ?- -In 1874 I was assistant to Mr. T. J. Thompson, and in 1875 I had cliarge of the division ; Mr. Henry McLeod, District Engineer. 35fi. What time in 1874 did you begin operations? — We began in .June. 357. At what point ?— At the Pic River on Lake Superior. 358. In what direction did you pi'ocoed ? — We proceeded in a westerly direction along tho shore of the lake to Nipigon. 359. What was the number of men in the parly to which you wore attached ? — About twelve altogether. 360. Will you describe the different positions of the members of the party, whether they were laborers, engineers or otherwise ? — Mr. Thompson was the engineer in charge of the party ; I was assistant engineer, and the rest of the party consisted of the chain men, axe men and boat men. 361. You had no animals with you? — No. No animals. In 1871 cxplor- utloiis norlli ul' Lako Supi'ilor ; In 1H7.J exploni. tory Survey bo- tween tin- Hay Lakes iiiul Root Klvur. ,\sslstant to '\\ J. Thompson tn 1S7I; In IH7ri had charge of dlviiiion. Repan opi-rations .Iiinc, 1S71. Proceed 01 1 west- erly to Nipij;oa. Party nunil)eretl twelve. RUTTAN 22 I'' Snrveyn -Ex. ploratioii. 'J'lirec months on »lior('-> of lake, then made Instru- mental snivey ti'om K<'(1 Hock to boulli Bay of Nlpigoii. ]<'our tnontlis in Held. 'J"homp.son pur- chaseu .sui)plu'> in Toronto and Colllntfwood. How- kept. accounts After fleld work, olHcc work at Ot- tawa. Chain and a.xe- rnen disoharKed alter Held work. 3G2. How long were you occupied in that work ? — We wore occupied about thrie months in theexplonition along the shoresof the lake. We then mad-) an instrumental survey from Red Kook to the South Bay of Lake ^ipigon. 368. How long did that occupy ? — As well as I can remember about a month. 3G4. So that during the season you were occupied about four montli.s ? — Yes ; in the field. 365. What was the system for procuring the supplies for such a party at that lime ' -The supplies at that time wore purchased by Mr. Thompson, the engineer in charge of the party in Toronto and CoUing- wood. 366. And taken with you or sent on ? — I think thoy wore taken with — possibly part were taken with us, and part were sent on to ited Rock. 367. Then the engineer in charge made all expenditures upon his own responsibility? — He bought, of course, what he thought was necessary for the survey. 36S, Did ho exercise his own discretion in procuring supplies neces- sary for the expedition? — i think soj I do not think he had any instructions with reference to the matter. 369. Do you know anything about the mode of keeping the accounts for that party? — We had an officer attached to the party — sometimes with the party, and pomotimes getting the supplies — who was suppo.sed to keep the accounts, and attend to tiie distribution of supplies on the lin'.\ 370. Who was that? — A man named Robson or Robinson, 1 am not sure which. 371. You took no part in the accounts o'' the procuring of supplies ? — None whatever. 372. Do you know the letter which would designate that ])arty at that time in the books of the Department? — I do not remember just now ; 1 could find it by referring to the report. 373. Besides the time you were occupied in the field, were you engaged a further time in ronnection with the work? — After getting through with the field work we came to Ottawa and made our plans and reports. H74. In the Department of Public Works? Were 3'ou connected with the Department of Public Works? — In the Canadian Pacific Rail- way Office; 1 think it was outside of the Deportment of Public Works proper al that time. 375. After the work in the field I suppose the chain men, axe men and others would be discharged? — Yes. '^tfi May, 1875.^ 376. About what time did you commence in the next season ? — In enjiineer'n/'^^' '^^ the next seasou 1 left Winnipeg on the 20th May, 1875. <'harge of division 377. What was your position in that party?—! was engineer in charge of the division. 378. Who was your assistant, or hud you an assistant ? — My first assi.stjint was W. McG. Otty, ■I 4 'i ■5; .;:s K 23 RUTTAN ?oro occupied !io lake. We ■Joiith Buy of lember about i)ui months ? such u psu'ty steed by Mr. and CoUing- ro taken with to lied Rock. res upon his thouu;ht wa.s ipplies neces- he had any the accounts — sometimes svas supposed jplies on the on, 1 am not of supplies ? at ])arty at member just d, were yon fter getting e our plans u connected l^acific Hail- ublic Works en, axe men season ? — In engineer in ?— My first } > 379. What was the size of that ])arty ? — During the season there were over twenty-five or thirty -five men employed. 380. Do you mean at one time, or at ditforent times ? — At dirtorent times. 381. What was the average strength of the party ?— Sometimes twenty-five, and sometimes more than thirty-five. 382. Over what territory did they operate ? — We made the explora- tion between the Hay Lakes, south of Edmont<'n, to the Root River. 383. Was that an exploration, or an exploratory survey ? — It was an exploratory surve}'. 384. That is diftorent from the work which you performed at Nipi' gon ? — Different from the work on the north shore of Lake Superior* This was an instrumental survey. 385. The explorations are made without instruments of any kind, I believe ?— Simple explorations are made without instrumental measure- ment. 38o. How long were you emploj'ed on this last service ?— The survey was commenced on the 11th of August, and finished on the 13th of November. Nurv«jr«— Rx- pIuratloM. From 2."> to .Vi inea empIoyeU cluriuj seusuu. Between Iliiy Lakes anci Root Kiver. Ati axploralory survey. Nortliof Liik(!.Sii- Derior an instru- meiilal .siirvoy. 387. Wore most of the party then discharged? — The party wis hired in Winnipeg, nnd about the 2r)th of November we lef\ the neighbor- hood of the Hay Lakew on out- return to Winnipeg, but when near Fort Pitt we received instructions to return to Edmonton and commence a location survey. 388. Did you return ? — I went to Carleton to meet Mr. McLeod, leaving my party at Fort Pitt, and returned to Edmonton. 389. Were the men of your party retained at work, or dischai'ged at that time ? — They were retained under pay. They were travelling ; they were not at work. 390. Do you know how long they were retained underpay travelling? — l''or the time necessary to enable us to go from the Hay Lakes to Carleton and return to Edmonton. We commenced the survey again ^)n the 4th February, 1876. 391. After they got to the point that you describe, Edmonton, weie the}' then discharged ? — No, they were not discharged. It was very difficult to get .nen there. We could not have got men to go on with the work if we had discharged those that we had brought from Winnipeg. 392. How long did they remain under pay without work? — The burvey was finished on the 13th of Novembei , 1875, and commenced again on the 4th of February, 1876. 393. During that intervening period were they under pay and not at work ? — Yes, except at travelling. They were not at work exploring. 394. Were they at one place much oi that time ? — I received instruc- tions from Mr. McLeod to bring the party down to Carleton to meet him, but instead of doing that I left the party where the messeng .r found us, at Fort Pitt, and went down to Fort Carleton myself. While Survey coninioii- cedou th-' Ulh August, tliilslicd 13th Nov. Location Niir> vcy. Instructions to comini'iice a l(K;a- tloii survny at I'M in (.> a ton. Commenced sur- vey again 4tU Feb., ISTt). From I'Uli Nov., 1H75, to 4th Fet)., 187t), men under pay and doing uq worL. RUTTAN 24 III 1 :il I I' i SI: ' Location Sur- vey. I was going down to Fort Carloton and returning tho men were at Fort Pitt. 3r'5. About how long was that ? — Abont three weeks, I think. 39G. For the rest of the period were they at any particular phice rooting? — They were travelling constantly fur the rest of the period. first rnsponsiw- 397. Upon that expedition who had tlie responsibility of procuring luprUt's^rTsted"" the supplies?— The first responsibility rested with Mr. Nixon, at with Mr. Nixon. "Winnipeg, who was purveyor for that district, and there was an officer of his attached to our party. ii;)8. What was his name? — Valentine Christian. 399. What was his duty ? — His duty was to look after all the Govern- ment property, and see that wo wore kept properly supplied with pro- visions. Nixon purchased 400. Do you mean that Nixon had the responsibility of purchasing reV/uismon o" fhc Supplies in the tirst place ? — Of purchasing supplies upon a requisition engintcr. from the engineer of the party. 401. Then the engineer made a requisition for such articles as ho thought he would require, and Nixon bought them at such prices as ho thought proper? — Yes. Prices in no way 402. The prices were not in any way under the lontrol of the engi- enS'eci!."^"'" "^ neering officer ? -No. -. Peputy purveyor 403. Who certified the accounts for the supplies received by tho pUes"eoeived!!"^'" pa^'ty ?— The deputy purveyor attached to the party. 40 1. Then, Valentine Christian could certify? — He would satisfy Mr. Nixon that tho supplies were properly received. 405. He would not certify as to the price? — I think not. 40'j, Were 3'ou required to certify aii;' amount of money ? — No, Witness not re- quired to cerlKy any amounts of money. Nor had he any 407. Then you had no control over the amount of expenditure ? — nTc^'p*' "^' "^ Not otherwise than as making a requisition for supplies or provisions which were necessary for the party. 408. Without re'erence to the price? — Without any reference to the price. Expedition west 409. Can you say about how long you were enjj;aged in that expe requisition icles as ho prices as ho jf the engi- ne J by thi> mid satisfy ?— No. nditure ? — provision-^ eforonco to lat expe • tructloii— CoiiB tiact No. lUt Cross-sections taken in the fall and winter of 1876, from which ap- proxlmiite ()iian- lltit's obtainable. Did not set a complete work- ing profile until months after work was coin- luenced. Government en- gineers refused to Klve iufornialioii. AUIiinments and gradcii ciianged I Dstructeii 432. Then was it possible to form any approximate estimate of the quantities at the time the work was commenced ? — 1 think that approximate cross- sections were taken in the fall and winter of 1876 from which an approximate idea of the 'quantities could be arrived at, 433. Was that after the work had been commenced? — Before. 434. Were you furnished with any of the particulars given by those plans? — We had never been furnished with a complete working plan. We did not get a complete working profile until several months after the work was toramenced, and it was commenced before we got any ci'oss-sections. 435. Did you ask for these particulars from the engineer in chai'ge ? —I did. 436. What was his answer ? — He was away from the contract when I arrived there, and 1 rirst asked the assistants for the working plan and profile of the section. 437. Who were the assistants? — Mr. Fellowes, Mr. Kirkpatrick and Mr. McXabb. Mr. Fellowes told mo that he could not give me any information until Mr. Carfe returned, and Mr. Kirkpatrick and Mr. McN'abb told me that they had no plan or profile of the work made ; that as soon as they made one they would bo glad to give me a copy. 438. When you saw Mr. Carre did you ask him? — I did. 439. With what result? — Ho said that his assistants were quite right in refusing to give me any information, and that he did not intend to give me any of the information that 1 had asked for about the work. I specified all the information that I required, and wrote to Mr. Carre asking for it. 440. Was this answer to you in writing or verbal ? — His answer was verbal. 441. How were you first made aware of the character of the work that you were required to do? How was it pointed out to you what the contractor had to do? — There was a line cleared for the telegraph construction, and over a portion of that the location stakes were in, showing the centre line of the railway. 4 2. Then the information given to the contractor was by something on the gi'ound ? — Yes. 443. Not in the shape of plans or writings or papers ? — Xo. 444. Were levels given indicating the grade? — The gi-ade pegs were put in for us at the commencement of cuttings on the ground. 445. Then you had the line grade? — Yes. 446. Shown on the ground ?— Yes. 447. Was that lino adhered to throughout the contract? — The align- ments and grades have both been changed in several places. 448. Were you led to understand how the water stretches were to be -We were first instructed to fill up the water stretches with ♦jan^niontsin the rock taken from the cuttings and make a rock basis in the wafer retehos. gufgui^ntly wide to carry an earth embankment. make a rook base ni-ocaoH ? lor the earth em- ^i "=>»«" '" 449. Filled up solidly ?— Yes. 27 RUTTAN nato »f the think tbut ;or of 1876 arrived at. bre. 3n by thoi^e rking plan, oaths after we got any in charge ? itract whoa rking plan patrick an(i vo me any k and Mr. (Torlc made ; ne a copy. were quite he did not for about and wrote answer was the work o you what telegraj)h OS were iti, something lO. ( pegs wore d. The align- were to be tche.'» with the water 45,). About when were those instructions given to you ? — I think I liuve a letter from Mr. Carre containing those instructions, dated about May or June, 1877. 451. Do I understand that they were the first instructions as to the mode of crossing the water stretches ? — Mr. Carre wrote that they wore tJie orly instructions that he was aware of at the time. 452. Then they were the first that you had communicated to you ? — Yes; the first communicated to us. 453. And that was to malce a solid rock basis across water stretches wide enough to support an earth embankment ? — Yes. 454. Would the width of it depend upon the height of the ])robable orabankment ?— Yes ; the higher the embankment the grcatei- the width of the rock basis. 455. Then the probable height of the embankment has been com- municated to you by those grade pegs ? — Yes. 456. Was there a scale given to you to work by, showing what width would be required for any particular height?— Xo; but the slopes of tlie embankment, were fixed and the width of the base depended upon the height of the embankment. 457. How were the slopes fixed ? — The standard slope for earth ombankments is one and a half to one. 458. Then you have it fixed by contract? — Fixed by specification. 459. Attached to the contract? — Yes. 460. Were you at that time led to understand that these embank- ments were to be of solid earth ? — We were merely told to make the rock basis sufficiently wide to carr}' an earth bank. Had the rock basis been intended for trestle work only, it would not have been necessary to make them nearly so wide. 461. Then did those instructions in May or June, 1877, appear to indicate that it was a base not for the support of trestle woi-k, but foi- the support of an earth embankment? — The base was required to be made wide enough to support earth embankments. 462. Were the bases put through the water stretches as solid rock bases ? — Xo. 463. Wh3' not? — It was seen that in order to make those bases, we would have been obliged to use all the rock on the contract at very few points, carrying the rock from cuttings over intermediate dry fills, and ])lacing the material in the water. It was not considered practicable to do that as it would have taken a very long time, and entailed an enormous expense. No contractor could have stood the expense. 464. You say that this was ascertained ; was it ascertained by the contractor and yourself, as an engineer, or by the Government engi- neer ?— We spoke to the (xovernment engineer about it. 465. Do you mean yourself, or you and the contractor ? — I mean the contractor and myself. 466. To whom did you speak ? — To Mr. Carre. 467. Who was Mr. Carre ? — He was the division engineer of the work on the part of the Government. Rnllivajr Coil' Htriictlon— CAna tract Ao. 18. Date of iiistnic- tlons, Muy or June, l!J77. Widtli ofliascdo- peiKlrd on tlio hei^'htof tin; eiulianknieut. Uock bases nuirli wider tliun neces- sary for tre.sUo work only. Not ciinslderod practicable to make bases of roeii. The Kngi!iccr-ia- Cliirge addressed on tills subject in summer ot 1877. in charge RUTT/N 28 Vailway Con- •tiiu'tl- u— Con> tract Mo 15. 1,' I, 1 '1 1 i 1 ( i r i Kiigincer look no action. V/ent on under Ills instructions nlftdnK roch; as ba.se8iu the water stretcbes near liie cuttings. July, H77, Rowan visited work, and nave autliority to till up Lake De- ception wlih earth, protected by narrow rock walls. This was a decid- ed change In the character of the v.'ork. These directions Kiven verbally to ». has. Whitehead. Rowan did not tllrect thiit the embankments throunhout should be rock protected. In Sept , 1877, began niakln^i; the side protoo- llon walls. 4<58. About what time did yoa communicate that to him ?— Immoli- jittiy upon receipt of his letter of instructions we mentioned to him that it was not practicable to do the work in that way; that we felt bure there was not rock enough in all the cuttings on the line to fill up the water stretches as ho had directed us. 4fi9. Abaut what time of the year would that be ? — May or Juno, 1S77. 470. Did he take any action upon your communication ? — No imme- diate action that I am aware of. 471. Did you proceed upon your own idea of what would be be.st ? — No; we proceeded upon his instructions to place the rock cuttings that was near those water stretches in the water, forming tho approaches. 472. You eay that he took no immediate action upon your communi- cation ; when did he take action upon it? — No immediate action was taken by him, and we wont on under his instructions, placing the cut- tings near the water as solid bases. 473. Were any dift'orent instructions communicated to you authoriz- ing a different kind of construction ? — I think in the latter part of .fuly, 1877, Mr. Eowan, inspected the work and then gave us authority totilf up Lake Deception with earth, protecting the slopes of the embank- ment with narrow rock banks. 474. Was this a decided change in the character of the work from which Mr. Carre had first directed? — It was. 475. Were the.'^e directions from Mr. Eowan in writing ? — No ; the directions were given verbally by him, in Mr. Carre's office, in the presence of Mr. Carre and Mr. Whitehead. 476. To whom? — To Mr. Charles Whitehead, as the contnictor's agent. 477. Were you present?— I was. 478. Did those new instructions apply to the whole of the work or only to particular localities? — The instiuctions relntive to filling up the embankments with earth applied to the whole of the work as far a»* earth could be procured, Mr. Rowan's instructions to us were that we should borrow all the earth that we tould in order to make uj) the embankments. 479. Do you moan his instructions at that particular time? — At that particular time during his inspection of the woi-k. 480. Do I understand that through all the water stretches Mr. Kowan directed you to make rock protection banks instead of solid bases? — No. ^ 481. Then to what were the instructions limited ? — The only definite instiuctions given by him with reference to that referred to Lake Deception at that time. 482. Were these instructions confirmed in anyway to you either by Mr. Rowan or anyone else afterwards ? — In September, lo77, we began making the side protection walls instead of full embankments, under the direction of the engineers. 483. Which engineers ? — The engineers in charge of the work. 4i Dec oml on t ucro inte Tint tliev 1 29 RUTTAN —Itnmo li- ed to him at we felt e to fill up y or June, -No immc- be best ? — ;k cuttings rming thv:' •comrauni- action was g the cut- 11 authoriz- xrt of July, ority to fill e embank- vvork from — No ; the ice, iu the ontractor's) ! work or ling up the a.H far -m re that we e up the —At that r. Rowfm bases ? — y definite to Lake either by we began its, under ork. N ' ruction— Cuii> 4S4. Who wore they? — Mr. Carre was immediately in charge. *"■'** *•• '*• 485. Did those instructions apply to any other places besides Lake in s«"pt.,i'<77, Deception? — Yes; in Septeraber, 1877, we commenced making an J^Xuiiinient lU embankment at Station 230 in that way. The fact of having the rock same «'aT'as'a'° on the outside of those embankments in^^tead of placing it all the way r.akei)i'oepn'.'u. across would not necessarily alter the first instructions, because t!ie intermediate portion might be filled up afterwards. 486. Either with rock or earth? — Yes. 4S7. Or thcv niiirht be used to support trestle work? — They could Hork proffPtions - - •' '^ ■ • • 'A 111 /• i ii J could not l)t' useii cause they would be so far apart that for titsi le work unless tlu' liiter- iiicdiate spacus were 111 led in. not be used for trestle work, bee there would bo water between them :: ] 488. But they could, by filUng in (he iiilerincd'ato places, be used tor trestle work?— Yes. 480. Then the outside points on the top of the Inscs would not be inrthor apart than if the original instructiDti.s had been carried out? — No ; thoy would be the same distance apart. 490. The openings were the ijitermeJiate ]»Ia,ees between those outer jiarts, and they were left vacant in.-5lead of being filled with rock ? — Yes. 4!)1. Have you any reason to know whether Mr. Carre, in Sei)tember, Civin- had in- had instructioub from any su))erior officer to alter the original character ."lunf, ihtt. lo of the work ?— No ; I have not. Mr. Carre told me that he got instruc- !.',u.u"'iH:'couid. tions in June, 1877, from Mr. Rowan, to borrow all the earth he could on the work to make up the embankmentfj. 4fi2. And did his telling you that lead yon to understand that you might make that change in the progress of the work? — It led us to believe that it was understood the change was to be made — that the work was to bo carried on in that way. 403. That was in Juno, 1877?— Yes. 494. Was there, at any time while you wore connected with the con- No fuiUicT in- fract, any intimation on the part of any Government officer that you tresUe^voriVwas must provide trestle work, as mentioned in the contract? — There was '^"r"^.,',',',',"^'*!'''* '^'^ no further intimation than the contract itself that I am aware of. ^^ 495. I am asking whether any of the officers directed you to fulfil the contract as to trestle work?— No; that is, not as to trestle work generally. There wore special trestles provided for the passage of streams, of which they gave us bills of timber and which they instructed us to build. 496. It was originally Intended that all the works left in the fillings, [Ion was to^span which could not be made up with inatoiial on the line should be filled by wooden super- ..1 1 , f •.. 4- o -»'• .structure all up With wooden superstructure, was it not r — les. voids in the fillings. 497. What I mean to ask is, whether the engineers in charge over Engtaeers-in directed you to do that at^cording tothecontract?— Thoy never directed dJi-ected"co'nt'rac- us to build any trestle work exceiit that required for the pas-sage of the tortobuiia . o 1*'. ITU I JO trestle work save Streams, of which 1 have spoken. over streams. 498. Would tbut be built up to formation line ? — Yes. Contractor's ■^ Engineer and the 499. Were there differenoes of opinion between you and the engineers charge differed as in charge as to measurements and quantities ?— Yes. {„ ciTssmcatiou* of material. RUTTAN 30 I'i I I I:';; 1' RHlIway Coil* ■t ruction— C{nrUlng looso rock. Kngineorscoii- ti'Miled that Htones iiiiUer fourteen cubic foet were to be reckoned as Ciirth. Contractor always clalmotl tJiat loose rock was iinder-esti- Tiiate tract 4^o. I.*^, I'nill till' iim't'c- inent with Siniili l-;n>;iat;er onilttoil sucli rook from nionsureim'ats. Yot he rel'iisod to allow ii miller any t•l(^s^ltU•a- tioii. 515. Had you removed it from the embankments? — Yes; under the Material piace34. Then the soil, whatcvor soil there may be, is principally sand? — Yes. 535. Is sand good matei-ial for filling ?— It is considered very good material for embankments. 53G. Better than ordinary earth ? — There are different kinds of sand^ some kinds of sand may be betler than ordinary earth for embankments and others not so good as ordinarj- earth. 537. Is the sand that you find in that country good ? — It is generally of good quality. 53S. As good as ordinary earth ? — I think so. 530. When you first went up there did j'ou ascertain whether theie was much material which could be borrowed, or not? — We saw, upon our first inspection of the lino, that we could borrow all the material necessary for making the embankments. 5i0. Without trestle ?— Yes. 541. And has the result shown that opinion to be correct? — It has. 542. Then, from the beginning, was it your opinion that there Wtts no necessity to introduce trestle work, because earth embankments could bo made from the immediate locality ? — Yes. 543. Do you know anything about the western end of section 15 being higher than the grade as arranged for the eastern end of sec- tion 14 ? — The character of the country on the western end of section 15 and the eastern end of section 14 is the same 544. What I mean is this — it is intimated in some of the papers which have been before Parliamentary Committees, that thei-e was a great deal of filling required to raise the eastern end of section 14 so that it might coincide with the western end of section 15. I)o you know anything about that matter? — I do not understand it. The grade at the junction of the contracts is the maximum grade allowed on the work. It would not be possible to get any lower on contract 14 with that grade. 38 RUTTAN ^ it clrtO- ,y proper. 10 line of way runs. ^'?-Ycs; Drrowiug; los of the 'es. at all ?— Qsofl of the vod where ,ho line as i of wind in lally Hand? very good ids of sand, bankments generally ther there saw, upon 10 material 1?— It has. II lere w td it. The [de allowed Icontract U RnlUvny (^nii* Htriii'tloii— C'nii- Irnctw 11 A ir,. f)!'). Did Mr. Whilelicftd nndcrlake lo do any woik on the caHtern wiiitoiiemi id of Hoctiftn 14? — Yes; ho luulorlook to do a Ward's contract, iinniediatoly adjoining section If) ond of section 14?— Yes; ho nndorlook to do a portion of Sifton ^^ "»t<.ok ti. en not ,0 a |)()rtl(>ii of Con l{ adjoining 1) Contriict triuiH- ."vlO. From whom did he take that coiitract ? -I think the contract '.'•'•'■•''' ''V. *^*"y'- I I I /< X /• 111. f -■- 1 ■ w \ ■ 1 1 Ironi Slilon A was iransterrcd i»y the (joverninent Ironi Sifton tv Ward to >> hitciiead. Wanito wiut..-. head. 547. Are you awaie that the quantities estimated by the (iovcrnment W'itn< .ssftocs nc ginecrs, were unexpectedly raiseil \>y chan^-jng the grailc ol the oi'i'i \viii nusl-a oaslern end of section 14, so that it might coincide with the wostern tocoirospona end of fcociion 15? — 1 am not aware that that could he done. 548. Ai'e you not aware that it was done? — I am not. The country iis of the same cliaractcr at the junction of the contracts. 540. Then you say that it was known from the beginning where the <'railos would meet ? — 1 cannot say that, but J do not sec why thei'c should be any rea.-on why the grades should not meet. 5.'>0. You are not aware that any such opinion was entertained ? — No. 551. You never heard of it ? — No. 552. Did it hap])cn, either on the castei'u portion of section 14whi(li ^Ir. Whitehead undertook, or on section 15, that muskegs were di-ained and tiie bottoms subsided ? — You mean that the surface of the muskeg -ubsided? 553. No; I mean that after drainage the earth would sink at the A "''''• "^•-'<'p'' bottom BO as to make a lower surface of earth? — Yos ; the section of hipiuny'cov.Ted llio railway sliown after the drainage of the muskeg was very much ''>","','" ^'''"y before. wer thaiv lower than was shown before the drainage. 554. The earth at the bottom of the muskeg ? — Y'es. 555. Were there some muskegs drained which had thateifect? — Yes 55t). In many places ? — On the eastern half of eection 14 there were Scv.-rai large several lai'ge muskegs that subsided in that way. muskegs on eastern end of U subsided. 557. Would it be possible to follow that altered surface by the railway line, or was it necessary to till it up to the original lino grade ? — If it was intended to make the embankment a certain height in the first place, the absolute Leight of that embankment might be reduced to correspond with the lowered muskeg. 558. Without interfering with the line? — Y'es; because the muskeg was more solid after drainage and would support an embankment better than a wet muskeg would. 559. Do you mean that the formation line might have been lowered, ^"n^a^'fnjl'ht^^^ where muakegs were drained, beyond what was originally intended have been without affecting the efficiency of the line?— Y'es; they might have l^^g^,[^.J ^:|^',f ** been lowered and an embankment made of the height originally drained without . . J 1 o o J reducing Its intended. efficiency. 560. Was that done in those muskegs that wore drained ? — I am not aware that it was. I think not. Opinion of 561. Do you think that an unnecessary height of embankment was e'mlinkmentH' made through those muskegs ? — It is the opinion of some engineera musklgs^were** that the embankments are unnecessarily high. madeunneoes- •^ ° sarilyhigh, 8 ' \[ Mil V^ li Pi '! Ir M RUTTAN RnilHuy Coil- Hiruf liiiii— roii« trRclN 1 1 A 15. 84 Wltni'»s of I he oaiiic (i|>>iiluii. The wlioleof So(!. ITi lifv ill (jRurt'ii- tlHii foi'iiintloti. Most 1. In 1870 found it difficult to get a message over telegraph line from Winnipeg to Fort Pelly. Lines down for Weeks at a time. 579. Have you any means of knowing whether the telegraph line from Winnipeg west— eay to Fort Pelly— is generally in good working order or not?— When I was west, in* 1876, I found it very difficult to get a message through to Winnipeg. The lines were down sometimes for weeks at a time. 1 ■ T) ■} Wii • mil; ■, .5 ' get 5> 1 and 1 r)f 5; cieti The one nuri' to tv theiH sfun( 58; count myse lino c 58f^ 587 tract 588 •.u'S 589 dialel^ 590 No; 1 woods 591 592 mcnt i 59.3 594. tract ( 595. ment? 596. contra( specto Someti from C done V origini 1 85 RUTTAN I r)!"0. WuH that on account of any incfflcioncy bctwceii Tort Polly and *i I Wirinipei' '/ — It was said to he on account of tlio lino through the IS near the | „j,„|,;^,^l,etwoon Fort Pelly and Winnipeg. - 1 OH. ^ of'xl'f Tho I •'»8I. How would the inuHkegs make a difficulty? — It is difficult to I ^'ot a polo down firmly in muskeg. ^.jy •(» ii i^ ^ r)b2. Why is it difficult? — On account of the sot\ nature of the .soil, ' jiiid the ([uantitity ot water in it. 583. Have you over been ovor that lino youisclt ? — No. Md'IK-lillll— Coil- tr»«'t Ko. I. This lUtilliutoilto iiiUHkex^. Ill which It In ilifll- cult to fix il ixilu lli'iiily. •0 favorable railway had would havo resent locu- oen diverted ir Keowatin ''at or Bay of which point I'tion of the avoided. r that route [lOt. it an exact character of lartors of a he northern as built bo •oute would ig expenses -The map 10 two and lanitoba. ; because shorter? — is. at Cross ;raph line " working Idifficult to |8ometime8 584. What is the general opinion in the community about the offi- «j.'neiiii npiniou ~ -" ~- . . that line Is very liiulliclcnt. cioncN' of that ; ortion of the line ? Have \ou any moans of knowinsr ? The opinion is that the lino is very inefficient. I hive been told by one of the foremen who built a portion of tho lino just beyond tho narrows of Lake Manitoba, that very often their poles would go twenty to twenty-tive feet in tho muskeg without touching bottom, and that there was no means of their bracing tho polos so as to make them .Ttuncl. 585. Havo you any knowledge of any other contract made on ac- count of tho Pacific JJailway? — Yes; Mosi-rs. Whitehead, Eyan and myself entered into a contract this spring to deliver 100,000 ties on tho line of railway. 586. On what part of it ? — On contract fourteen. 5>^7. Do you know tho number in tho Department, of your con- tract? — Contract number tifty-nitie. 588. What was the subject of your contract ?— The doliveiy of 100,000 ties on tho line of railway on contract fourteen. 589. What part of the country did that cover?— The countiy imme- diately east of Ked Kiver. 590. Wore you to deliver them at any particular spot on tho line? — No; merely on the line of railway where they wore got out of the woods. 591. At what rate were you to be paid ? — At 27|c. 592. Subject to any conditions a-i to price? — Subject to the Govern- ment stumpago. 593. Of how much? — I do not know the amount. 5111. Has this contract been fulfilled ? — Ye«; we completed tho con- tract early in April. 595. Then the matter has been closed between you and the Depart- ment ? — The matter has not been closed. TU'H — C'oiid'at'f K», 50. Whltelicad, Ryau it Huttan, cou- tractors for KKI.OOO Iks. On Con. 11. Delivery to b(> over coiuitry iin- niudialolv east of Red Kiver. To 1)0 delivered along line of rail- way where not from woods. At 273 cts. S abject toGov- •vninent stump- a^e. Contract coni- pluted in April, 1880. The matter not closed.; Why not? — On the 7th of April, after we had completed the Ties were re- ;t, Mr. Kowan wrote us stating that he had forwarded the in- Swn mit.°^ 596. contract, specter's report to Ottawa and that the 100,000 ties had been delivered. Sometime afterwards he informed us that h© had received instructions from Ottawa to have tho ties recuUed and re-estimated. Ho had this done with the result of throwing out 4,000 of the ties which he had originally estimated and which he t-aid in his letter to us were delivered. 3i . w RUTTAN 3(1 1 ' 7lvs— Contract No. 5y. 597. Has that prevented the matter from being closed ? — We did not accept that estimate of the ties, and they aio now again being re- cuUcd by another man. 598. For your benefit?— No; by the Government. Tiiini iiisiwction. 599. That is, then, a third inspection ? — A third inspoclion is now going on. 600. At firsi, 1 understand, you had a certificate from bini that tlie contract was filled and the ties were satisfactory ? — Yes ; the certificate was got from Mr. Eowan for the purpose of using it in the bank. 601. Why in the bank?— The bank required some authority h> enable us to get the money to pay the men. Our ties were got out by sub-contract. Our agreements with the sub-contractors were that wc should pay them for ties as acceptol by the CT0vernm3nt : an_ythini;- not acce})ted by ttie Government we would not pay them for. On Mr, ]iowan's certificate, our sub-contractors claimed payment for that num- ber of ties. 602. What number?— The number certilied by Mr, Eowan, 100,000, and wo paid them on his certificate. 603. Do you mean that you are not able to pi >co yourself in llio same position in consequence of their not being finally accejited l)y the Govcrnnicnt ? — There is a balance of six or seven thousand dollars still due us o:i that contract. Silt i-fontracf Ill's ))uiil oil iuo,(hm; tii'S. Brt'.TIlCOOf ■'(!,00(i or t'7,im still tUK' R<.>\van's letter irfive iinpression that liis lirst lu- spoctioii wa.s ^•ibsoiiite. 604. And is that the dispute between you and the Department or, account of this subsequent inspection ? — Yes. 605. At the time of this first inspection upon which you paitl your sub-contractors, v^ad it not understood with Mr. Eowan that it was only a temporaiy arrangement and for your benefit, so that if it waj subse- quently ascertained that the ties wore not all there the whole amount should not be claimed ? — Not at all. His letter to us conveyed the impression that the contract had been completed and the estimates for- warded to Ottawa for final action in the Department. 606. There was no understanding between you and him that it wa^ done fot your benefit temporarily ? — Certainly not. 607. Y^ou understood it to bean absolute acco'.*ance for the fulfilment of the contract ? — Certainly ; otherwise we should not have paid our sub contractors until the final estimate had been made. I !! i, I ^1 ' !!' , .I'lll i'lr 111: 608, Is there any other matter within your knowledge relating to the Pacific Eailway which you think should be mentioned? — Not that I am aware of. ll«U-»v ay— Con- tract No> 15. iH'*r*'on HecM'to" ^^^" ^^^ ^^^ know whether there was sufficient standing timber on | Vmiui trestle . Bection 15, suitable for trestle work as originally mentioned in the '^^°'^^- specification? — No; there was not enough timber on tha contract tOj build the trestle work. Character of ■country must liave been well known before Jine located on hdc. 15. 610. Referring to the kind of country over which section 15 had beenl located, was it well known before the location of the line? — It mubti have been known, the surveys had been in progress for some years in! that section of the country. 31 RUTTAN »— We did being re- lon IS now n 1hat the ) cortiticate jank. ilhority U< got out hy ive tiiat wc : jinytliiui;" r. On Mr. r that nmn- iiii, 100,000, •self in till' ptod l)}-^ the dollars 8tih )artment or. I paid your it was only L waj siibsc- lole amount nveycd thu stimates for- 1 that it wa-i be fulfilment J ve paid our relating to ?— Notth:it g timber on oned in the contract to; 1 15 had been I e? — It mubl| ome years in? t! 1 ] . Were there any trails over that section ? — Two or three surveyed lines Lid been made, and there were also trails. 012. What do you call trails? — Trails are paths through the woods or lakes which are usually travelled. G13. For pedestrians or horses ? — Not necessarily for horses. 014. Then there had been a track through that country before the line was located ? — Yea ; for the surveys. 015. Would there be any difflculty in ascertaining the amount of earth that could be obtained for the fillings? — I should think not. 010. Do you know where it was expected that the timber would be •■•ot for trestle work on section 15 if the timber was not on the section or near it ? — I do not. 017. Have you been over this southern line that you spoke of from Eat Portage? — I have seen the line in several places, and I have been along the water, along Clear Water Bay, on Shoal Lake, and by the p'alcon Eiver, and up Falcon Lake. 018. But not on the immediate location ?- No. 019. Is it the same geological formation as the other line? — Part of it is the same, but the country is not ho rough, and as you approach falcon Lake you sooner get into the open country on the southern line. 620. liow much sooner — by twelve miles or thereabouts ? — I should think about that. Rnilwajr Coii> xtruetioii — Con- tract No. 1.5. Surveyed lines ai* well as trails limi been made. Noillfflciilty ill ascerlainiiij; amount of carlh to be oblalned for the filUnj{ up. Does not know where the timber for trestles was expected to be obtained. Approaehinir Falcon I.ak«', j,'e( into open country In the .southern line twelve miles sooner. Tfl«'grBiili — Contrai't \o. I. ToussAiNT Trudp.au's examination continued : — __, ,__... TRUDEAU. 021. Upon the first day of your examination I asked you this ques- tion: " Do you think that the reason why the Department gave this .ontvact to Sifton, Glass & Company was that they thought Waddle k, Smith weve about to fail to comply with the terms of their contract for section five ?" You made some allusion to a report of Mr. Fleming's ; have vo.i anvih*! g to say further now that will elucidate that matter by '«:' ler reference to the report? — In my answer to question 202 yesterday, I stated the reason why the tenders of Fuller, Dwight and Waddle & Smith were passed over. It was my intention this morning to have read Sifton, Glass it Company's tender, which, in my opinion, has been adopted wThout modification of price, but was prevented from doing so by other p>essing business in the Department. I shall endeavor to do so by my next appearance before the Commission. 022. It has been considered that I prevented you from making as Witness not pre- full a reference to this report as you intended. The object of my pre- f,','i'i\*;enM"nee'fo *^ent question is to know whether you now wish to make a fuller Fleming's report, reference to this report than you wore allowed to do on that occasion ? — (Xo aiiswer.) 023. As you seem unprepared to answer that question,- will you answer this: Were you prevented from making as full a reference tQ that report as you wished ? — No. TRUDEAU 38 ;!^ 1.11'!- Practlcfof De- l>artiii«iit. Practice of De- part nictit ti> refer tenders to Kiigl- iieer iu clmrKe lor report. Report not alwaj's accom- panied by a re- <'ommeiidatU)U. Explanations would not be allowed to nio- tJify tenders. Any meaning adopted must have appeared from the docu- ment Itself. Final appeal to the Minister. 624. Is it the pfaclico in your Department to require the engineer to recommend which of the tenders should be accepted ? —The u.sual practice is to refer the tenders to the engineer in charge of the work lor a report. 625. Always a report with a recommendation^? — It i3 not always a recommendation. 626. Was it usual that the engineer should, in conversations with the, pej'sons tendering learn their intentions as to any matters that were left obscure in the tenders? — Yes. 627. Then a meaning can be adopted after a tender from conversa- tion which could not be gathered from the document itself? — If after explanations received from a party tendering it was not possible to understand the tender without the explanations forming part of *!u^ tender, I do not think that the explanations would be admitted. 628. I have not been able to follow your meaning, I ask ifamoanii.^ can be adopted after a tender, by conversation, which could not bo gathered from the document itself? — No. 629. That was not allowable ?— No. 630. Then the meaning to be adopted must have apj^cared from the document itself? — Yes; it must be possible to understand a document from the wording of it. 631. Then if the tender conveyed one meaning to your engineer, a different meaning, in consequence of an explanation, would not govern the choice of tenders ? — The engineer may have been wrong in his first reading; he may not have understood the tender. 632. "Who has to decide whether he is right or wrong? — The whole Department is under the control of the Minister; lie is our final appeal. Sometimes Fie- 633. Has the attention of the Department been called to the fact mendod*t?i'"adop. that in some reports upon the question of adopting or rejecting tenders, tion of tenders : jyjr, Fleming positively recommends the adoption of some tenders, and omitteYVo do'so. in Others avoids recommending any course ? — The Minister saw all the reports made by Mr. Fleming, and he may have noticed himself the recommendations made by Mr. Fleming without its being necessary that his attention should bo drawn to it. 634. Have you noticed the ditterence in the substance of his reports on this subject ? — Yes, In tiu' liitt.Toase, 635, Then where he declines to recommend u course it is adopted Knfilneer not res- ,,, ... -i -i-*^ o ti • ponaibie. Without his responsibility .' — It is. TfleKi-apli— CuutractH Sins, I and 3 Fleming's report ^•^^- ^^''' 3'^" '^'^^ ''^ ^''*' i"6pf>''t upon the tender o^ Mr. Fuller for of i6ih isept., p jtions one and three, and upon the demand for a'. . dditiou!.' price datVoVon"tei'ders fo^* clearing, and say whjther it recommends any act> m V — T!ui '-eport for Sees. 1 and ;?. of the 16th of September is simply a Statement of facts. Ji doe.j not recommend any action. On 13th o tober, 637. Will yoii look at his report, about the 13th of October con- niond.'" ^ *^"'"" ferning the new interpretation of Sitioii Glass & Go's tender as suggested by Mr. Sifton's letter of the same date to Mr. Fleming, and say whether that reommends any action? — 1 havj looked, and it does not. I I .'I 39 TRUDEAU e engineer ■The usual the work )t always a i.s with the that were . con versa- ?— If after possible to >art of <:ie ed. 'a mean 1 1.-- aid not bo 63>>. Will you produce Sifton, Glass & Go's original loiter of that ^^ate ?— I now produce it. (Exhibit 9.) 639. What is the date of Mr. Fleming's report on thia letter now produced '/—October 13th. 640. What is the date of the original letter? — October 14th. 641. Then Mr. Fleming reports on the 13th on Sifton, (J lass & Go's iotter of the 14th ? — (No answer.) 642. Have you the original order appointing Mr. Fleming? — I have, and now produce it. (Exhibit 10.) , j_ 643. Have you copies of the papers connected with the contract V\ number one? — I have none ready at this raonijnt. Telegrapli— rontraetfi STos. 1 aiMl 'i. Sifton. Olaas & Go's. letter pro- dueed. Fleiuitig'M report In tills letter tinted the day l)ufore the letter Itself. Ordor-in-Councll uppolnts Klemlng. Papers on Con. No. I not yet ready. 1 from the document ngineer, a lot govern )ng in his rhe whole lal appeal, the fact ig tenders, ndere, and saw all the imseif the necessaiy lis reports is adopted ''iiller for a:.' price 'ho '-eport d>j'-vj not THIRTKELL. Resides In Lind- say. Ottawa, Tuesday, 17th August, 1880. John Tiurtkhll sworn and examined : By the Chairman : — (514. Where do you reside ? — In the town of Jjindsay, 645. How long have you lived in Lindsay? — Twenty odd years. 646. Do you know the people of Lindsay very well ? — Yes ; I know flhem nvettj well. 64":. linv'e there been any other Thirtkells living there of late? — [y<'S , !' ti'.' is a son of mine, W. J. Thirtkell. ti8. V'li you receive a summons to come here ? — Yes. 649. K vr • Tv^ that addressed? — It was adiressed to W. J. or John jThirtkclI. I 650. Then, it appears to have been given to John and not to W. J. ? W-iThirtkei;, |— My son is not there : he is not in the country now. I'ln'canaaa!'"' "*''' 651. Where does he live ? — In Boston. 652. Was he the person who was in partnership with Sutton in Hewasronnected itb tender for the telegraph lino?— Yes; I think he had some connec- '^'^'' •^""""• |t' 'i' ^hh Sutton at one time. •■.'>; L>o you know anything about that telegraph matter ? — I do not tbii;!. I c(/i'.!d say anything about it. 1 was not connected with it in any way, and, of course, I do not know anything about the transaction jmyself. 654 So that the W. J. Thirtkell to whom this summons is directed Is another man ? — Yes ; he is my son. ober con- suggested V whether TRUDEAU 40 1 ! I* WitHess believes that, FIemliifj'8 becoiul reailldg of Sifton, Glass & t'o's. tender of 3874 was the cor- rect one. Coiitraet Wo. 1— Torusul and :on, Gla.s.s it ific Railway second read- llio foi'm ot 1 " Informa- ment, oftern ), including;- naintenance I'B from tho owing para- laclie, or to ) Nipissing, I of Ontario. d land, and will be $621) it ion houses, ^nati'uction ; the location ?259, includ- parties pro- 1 much upoti west to Fort i further in 1 Port Garrv at $492 per | liles of Fort i e quoted ii 1,485 mile. — $].82,59r>. otal for cor. of maiii- i be sixteen st twecn Fort at embraced and U8ed in it $492 po). 450; total iS & Co. b}- leage prices 1 afterwards )f $629 and alone was lie, from tho if or rates of elusion but ntenance in states prices asked hy siftot^. (JIass ife L'o. f'oiitrnct Wo, 1 — TeleKi'aph. [not included in cither case. Tho work awardoi to Messrs. Sifton, Glass k Co. embraced the construction of the telegraph from Winnipeg or Fort Garry to Selkirk and Livingston, near Fort Pelly. Forest, $492 per mile. Prairie, $189 per mile. Maintenance, $16 per mile per annum. 056. You say, then, that the contract as awarded followed the proper conbMiiction of tho original tender, in your opinion? — What I say is that the prices of $492 and $189 per mile did not include maintonance. 057. Is that all you mean by the explanation that you have just read Kxpiains how this morning ? — I mean to show that this conclusion could bo arrived at tondeaVo/cuViUf from the tender. It is independent of any explanation given by Sifton, i'/^ Kaiiiered^fro Glass & Co. 059. Which conclusion? — That maintenance was not included in those prices. 659. Then do you consider that the contract was awardeil according to the proper interpretation of his first tender? — The only objection 1 have to it — 600. Have you any objection to it ? — The only objection I have to it wunesa finds is that the exact figure for maintenance wts $15.83 per mile instead of ""'/,"''J''^*'"P '/* ' . ,. ..aP r i»T i. -1 i- ii • be Ii If) Instead of SU), making a diiierenee of 17 cents per mde per annum for the main- *i:..s;i per nnir. tenance. m 001. With that exception, do you say that your opinion is that con- (^oniraeto not tract was awarded according to the proper interpretation of his tender ? ,%erate the Hue —•In the contract Sifton & Glass are obliged to operate the line for the for the proflts. j)rofits. There is nothing said of that in the tender ; but with those ex- ceptions, I think that the contract was a proper interpretation of tho tender. 602. Then the feature of profits was one which did not appear in This feature i the tender ?— It did not appear in the tender. '" ""^ ^'"■''*''- 663. How were the particulars of that feature arrived at between tho First mention of (Jovernment and Sifton, Glass & Co. ?-In a letter dated October 14th j;!' sTfton, Gla*!s'^ to Mr. Fleming, Sifton, Glass & Co. otfer to work and receive thejn-ofits & Co. Oct, 15. of the line. 664. Do you say that they offered to^work ? — He says so in his letter. 005. Road the context ? — "Contractors are to maintain, \,ork and " receive the profits of the line." 666. Do you mean that this letter of the 14th of October was the I'"'? '<'"'''; ^'A'"' /.. .."', ., \- i. n ,. ,, . oi- 1 ... first nei?ot la (ion first negotiation on the subject of operating the iine ? — It is tho hrst on thesuhjeetot that I know of. o|)erallnK the line. 667. At different times in giving evidence you have named tho date 2'2nd .luiy the for receiving tenders as tho 22nd of July, and also the 26th of July; tenders. '"''■'""""" which is the correct date ? — In a printed copy of the advertisement which I have in my hand the 22nd of July is given. 668. Do you believe that to be the correct date ? — I do. 669. Has any return of tho correspondence and documents connected with the letting of these two contracts been asked for by either House of Parliament — either by themselves or with any other contract? — Yes. 670. By which House?— The House of Commons. TRUDEAU 42 ii: , i |i.!l ■I Mrliil'' Contract Aio. I— TclegrapU. A return of cor- respontlence asked lor, lltli May, 1H7S, hy HriuNO of Com- mons. Return not laid before the House. Neither the letter of SIfton, Ulu8s A Co. nor P'le- mint^'s report, included In return The written re- port pioduceU. FlenilnK's report to Minister not In record room. It reached De. partment"and Minister saw It. Practice of De< jiartineiit. Practice that tenders shall not be changed. 671. AtAvhatdate?— On tho llth March, 1873, " A Return calling f>r copies of specifications, ten iers, correspondence, contracts, etc., in respect to the Canadian Pacitic Eaiiway, telegraph froiiiLake Superior lo Fort Edmonton." 672. Was there a return prepared according to s-.^Uv ui^ . '( — Yes. 673. Was it laid before the House ? — I do not think it was. 674. I)o you know the reason ?— 1 do not. 675. Is this letter of Sifton. Glass k Co., to Mr. Fleming about the new interpretation of his tender, or Mr. Fleming's report to the Depart- ment, included in that return as prepared? — No. 676. Have you the report as prepared for the House ? — I have. 677. Can you produce it? — I now produce it (Exhibit No. H), 1 want to explain that it does not appear that Mr. Fleming's report, containing a copy of Sifton Glass k Go's letter, has been filed in tho records of the office. The original letter from Sifton, Glass c Co. to Mr. Fleming was filed in Mr. Fleming's office, and i believe that that is the reason why it does not appear in that return. I can see no other reason why it should not. 678. You speak now of Sifto", Glass & Go's letter to Mr. Fleming ? — Ves. 679. But what of Mr. Fleming's report to the Minister? — I have mentioned that also. That does not appear to be in our record room. 6S0. You think it reached your Department, do you not? — I am quite sure that the Minister saw it. 681. Is not that report given as the reason for adopting Sifion, Glass & Go's tender ? • Yes. 682. Then have you any doubt that it reached your Department ? — I have no doubt that it reached the Minister, but I am only explaining how it is that it is not in the return — it is that owing to some accident, the return was not recorded by the clerk who endorses the letters and reports received every day. C83. Is there any rule in your Department affecting the eligibility as a contractor of a person tendering and making a material change iu his otter before the contract is let? — We have no written rules. 684. Then there is no rule on that subject ? — There is no rule, but the practice is that tenders are not changed. 685. It appears that tenders are changed. I am asking whether it affects the eligibility of the person tendering? — They are not changed materially. 686. Did not Mr. Fuller ask $flO,000 more than he tendered for ?— Yes. 687. Is not that a material change ? — Yes. 688. Then a change was made ? — It was not made. 689. It was made in the offer. I am asking if it does not affect his eligibility afterwards?— No. 690. He is still eligible ?— He is still eligible to make tenders for any fu'.ure work. ^5v (]9 ?oul 69 iHte |that 69i ■'k'ontr, •I •9i 43 TRUDEAU ivn calling ;t8, etc., in ce vSuporior >— Yes. s. nbout tlio the Djpari- have. t No. 11). g's repMt, iio'l in th'3 3 C Co. to Q that that Be no other Fleming ? ■?— I have 30rd room. ot?— I am fion, Glass rtment ? — explaining e accident, etters and eligibility chaoge i:i es. rule, but v'hethor it t changed ■od for ?— affect his rs for any 691. I mean for that particular contract? — I should think that he 70uld stili be eligible for that particular contract at his original price, [o would not bo eligible for his modified price. 692. Then the practice is, that if a person, after tendering, makes a .jaterial modification in his price or terms, he is no longer eligible for That contract? — We do not entertain his proposed change. 693. You do not allow him to modify his tender? — No. 694. Then a modified tender could not be accepted as a basis for a L'ontract ?— No. '95. And does that apply whether the modified ofl'er be still the lowest Dffer or not ?— It doe*. 696, So that although it be the lowest ofior he is still ineligible for that contract ? — His modified price is not accepted. i 697. Whether it be lower or not than the next tender? — Y'es. I 698. For what portion of the line is the contract made with Mr. b'uiier?— From Livingston to Edmonton. 699. Was that either of the sections named in the advertisement for .enders ? — It was not. 700. Did Fuller tender for that portion of the line by itself? — No. I 701. Was that portion of the line, by itself, ever offered to public iompetition ? — No. I j 702. Have you ascertained whether an Oi'der-in-Council was made in Ireference to the contract of Sif ton, Glass & Co.? — I have a.sccrtained [hat no Order in Council was passed. 703. In the advertisement for tenders of these telegraph contracts I lo not notice that any directions are given to endorse the tenders as lenders. Is that usual or not in asking for tenders? — That is the general practice ' he Department. 704. It was not followed in this CKse ? — Apparently not. 705. What is the object of asking generally that tenders should be so indorsed ? — So that they may be collected together and not opened. 706. Then if a tender should reach your oflSce not endorsed as a jnder, would it be opened before the day fixed for opening the ten- lers ?— It would be unless it were brought in by some person who Stated to the Secretary that it was a tender. 707. Unless the Department had some notification that the letter ms a tender, it would be treated as an ordinary letter and opened on Its arrival ? — Yes. 708. Look at the tender of Sifton, Glass & Co.; is there anything on Ihe envelope or tender to indicate that it ought not to be o])ene(l at \ncc ? — They arc marked " Tender for Canadian Pacific Railway Tele- |;raph line." 709. Then you think it was not opened until all the other tenders rere opened ?— I do think that it was not opened. 710. It would be on the 7th of August that it was opened?— Yes. Praclioe of Ue- Itartinriit. A proportCil clianifit In tciKior U(.>t cntgrtaiiitid. A imidlflod^ton- dor could not bo accepted as a basis of a con- tract. Kven thouuli It were the lowest. Cniitract ^o. 3— 'I'cli'KrHiili. Contract Sn. 1 — Telegraph. No Order In Council In re- ference to con- tract to SIftou, ClOHB & Co. I'sual In adver- tisement to direct that tender shall bo endorsed. Practice dlsre- fj'irded in this case. Ob.i*'ct of enilors- Ini; tenders. Ill absence of some notice, a tender would be opened before ihs day fixed for opening tender. f'lfton.Olass A C'ii tract not .1 warded accord- ins to the rule at that time. CorrcsnondPnce Willi .Mr. Dwijiht, Fleming reports that i wight's Conipany decline unless paid lor clearing, ^320 per mile. 711. Do you know what the usual practice is as to askin/jf for Oider- in-Council upon tenders that are uot at tirst the lowest ?— Tlio practic.- has varied a little. At one time an opinion was entertained in tlu> Department that it was not necesi n the low•e■^t his tondci- ' to Cour.('i! Iv, an(i th:it ■wo tlioui^Kf. But ot lute cil on nearly id aeceptori er, 1S74?- to Council r tender ?— f willing to J.'s tender by ,s not nccord- itod that wc I been more ) tlie rciruhu- cgular rule ? .vight, show- y correspoii- itembor Mr, t : — alTclegrajili Paciric Tek- oui' tender. ' od a tendo,' quite rea'ly erdry froii er for coi di- nner and on ention." C »iiapcrs connected with that O'lntruot oriirin- contract now in you/ Itepartment ?— This contract was awarded to Mr. jV/iniiiniVwho Barnard, and Mr. Barnard alleges that ho has a claim against the De- nmki-saViiiiiii ' . ,. -.1 ii • , i mi II i. viilcli Is now !)(>- jKirtmcnt in connection with this contract. Ihe whole matter was roie MiMi.ster of referred to Mr. Compton, one of the official arbitrators, for i-eport on •'"•li^''-'- the facts. Mr. Compton has s])ent considerable time and taken a great deal of trouble to ascertain the tacts, and he has reported to the Depart- ment, This report, with the papers, is now before tlie Minister of Justice. 727. So that you are not able to produce them ? — I cannot at this moment. Contract IVo. 4 — Tvle^ra|>U, 728. What was the subject of your next contract ? — Contract number Line from Fort four was for the erection of the telegraph from Fort William to Selkirk, kirk.''^™ ^" ^'^'" 729. Were tenders asked for this part of the line, together with the others of which you have spoken ? — Yes. 730. Who made the lowest tender for this section ? according to the list prepared by Mr. Fleming. 731. How much for construction ? — $189,120. 732. And for maintenance — and I will add if you prefer it — as under- J5,(U0 lormain- stood by the Department? — For maintenance S5,040 per year with lUsror^lVoso"^**" profits; or 810,083 without profits. without. 733. Did they get the contract ? — They did not, 734. Do you know the reason why ? — They failed to give the proper J^^^j to nit'u '"^ security. Becurlty. 735. Whose tender was assumed to be the next lowest by the Depart- Next lowest, sut- raent?— The second lowest, according to Mr. Fleming's list, was Sutton ^onauaThirtiteii & Thirtkell. Waddlle & Smiths Wad.iiio a s.nitu tlie lowest ten- derers. $189 12() for con- struction. TRUDEAU 46 I I'll 'i Cwnti-Hct No. 4- $211,fl50 for con- Htnictloii nnd iimintenaiR-e. They also failed to give security. No correspond- encp other than appears In Ses- Fkmal Paperc, Third lowest .Sut- ton, Tliompson & Vo. They did not get contract. On 24th Dec, 1874, Oliver, Davidson A Co. wrote a let- ter to Dept., say- ing they had ar- ranged to carry out the tenders of Sutton, 'J homp- son &Co. for sec. 5. 73*». What is their price for construction? — Thoir tcn-Jer is for on. Mtruction nnd maintenance combined. 737. How much ?— $214,450. 738. Is that for five years maintenance ? — The tenders do not state, 739. Have you the original tender? — Yes (Kxhibit Xo. 12.) 740. I see that they proposed to construct and maintain according i) the advertisement of the Public Works Department ? — Yes. 741. You assume that to be for five years ? — Yes ; 1 assume that it is for five year?. 742. Did they get the contract? — No. 74.'. Do you know the rea'^on ? — Thej* failed to give the security. 744. Have you any original correspondence between the Department and Sutton and Thirtkell beyond that of which a copy appears in the Sessional Papers of the House of Commons for 187H (No. 52) ? — No. 745. Was there any correspondence beyond this that you know of? —No. 746. AVhat time do you fix from this correspondence as the end of your negotiation with them ? — On the l2th of December, 1874, Mr. Braun, Secretary of the Department, telegraphed to Sutton &Thirtkol! " Unless you come between this and Wednesday next the Minister " will pass to the next tender." On the 16th December, Mr. Sutton replies : — " In consequence of personal and family illness of one of my ])artio>, '" I would request Minister allow three days to replace ilieni and will " close this week sure. Answer." 747. What is the signature to that lelcgram? — In the printed cojiy before me the signature is " R. S. Sutton," but in the original it look-, like " 11. T. Sutton." 748. Do 5'ou know of anything after this passing between Sutton nnd the Department in respect to Sutton iS:- Thirtkell's tender? — I d<) not. 749. Whose tender appears to be the next lowost, from the report of your engineer to you ? — The third lowest is Sutton, Thompson & Co. 7oO. Do you know whether that Sutton is the same whose name appears in the firm of Sutton and Thiitkell ? — I do not. 751. Do you know the Christian names o* Sutton in the firm of Sutton and Thompson ? — The tender is simply signed " Sutton. Thomppon and Co." 752. Do }'ou know the Christian names of the Sutton in that firm ? —No. 753. Have you any other document on this subject from Sutton, Thompson and Co. on record ? — No. 754. Did they get the contract ? — No. 755. Why not ? — I find that on the 24th December, lo74. according to the printed document before me, we received a letter from Oliver, Davidson and Co., staling : '* We have now an anged to carry out the tender of Sutton, Thompson ** & Co., of Branlford, for section number five of the Pacific Railway 47 TRUOEAU is for cjii. 3 not state. 2.) according to mo thut it is security. Department pears in the . 52)?— No. Li Icnow of.' the end ot •, 1874, Mr. i&Thirtkol! the Minister my ])artio~>, jin and will rinted co]iy nal it looi<'? Iveen Sutton dor?— [ do ho report of ^son tfe Co, i^liose name Ithe firm of " Sutton. that firm ? I'om Sutton, t. according I'om Oliver, [, Thompson ic Eailway Telcnaph. What time would ho convenient to havo tho matter t' closed with the Department? Could it stand o.er until after tho f' Onlurio elections? Please advise and oblii,'o yours, " (Signed) Omver, D.widson &, Co., "By A. Olivbr." VoH. Had you any other information than that letter thilt Sutton, [Thompson & Co. had parted with their interest in thoir tender, that ?ou know of? — I do not know of any other. 4'oiitrnct Xo. . 1 1 ml piirt.fil with llimr liltor- csi in tender. 757. Is it tho habit of tho Department to deal with a person who Not iik- praciico presents himself to be an assignee of one who has tendered ?vii'if 'a person jpi ithout any evidence from the party himself who has tendered ? — No. "iio represents ""^"'"•" V I .^ )i)nisell as the 7.58. Can you explain wliy that wiis done in this case ? — I cannot. Is it according to rule or contrary to rule ? — Wo have no written assignee of a ten- derer. Witness cannot explain why that w-.is done In this CllhO. Tt was enntrary nsnal practice". 759 rules. 760, Is it according to the usual practice? — It is not according to ^he usual practice. 761. Have you any evidence of any communication to Sutton i*c n<' <"0"eKpond- ['hompson, informing them that their tender would bo accepted — that Thmil^isoir* ("o\' ^, after you had decided to negotiate no further with Sutton »t Thirt- ||'J[»,'J'^[.';{:,^^!JP',',Jj, ^ell ? — We havo not on record. 7G2, Can you explain how cither Sutton & Thompson or Oliver, )avidson & Co, would know on tho 24th December that their tender :.§«rould be accepted ? — No j there is no record. WOUlll 1)0 uc- eepi<'(l. No njpans of e.v- pliilnint; how they or OUvei-, Davidson A Co. could know that their tender wa.s aecepled. 76H. Is it the practice of tho Department to deal with persons praiing with nder the circumstances in which this proposition is mado by Oliver, 2'/.y,'^''";^^t^''''^"uv "'avidson & Co. without any transfer and without any notification that practiCe of Dopt.' ou were ready to deal with them ? — It is not the practice. 7(j4. In this case you did deal with them? — Yes. 765. Can you explain why you did not follow tho usual practice? — <'o. 76(!. Were you present when it was decided to give them tho con- tact ? — No. 767. Will you give me tho names of Oliver, Davidson & Co. separa- sly? — Adam Oliver, of the Town of IngersoU ; Joseph Davidson, of le City of Toronto and Peter Johnson Brown, of IngersoU. 768. Have you ever before noticed theabsenceof any communication rem Sutton, Thompson & Co, on this subject with the Department ? — I ras aware of it. Witness did not 769. Did you enquire into it ? — I did not enquire into it very deeply, transaction very fhe ti'ansaction was managed by the Minibter. managed' by^"'' Minister. This is the reason 770. Was that tho reason for your not enquiring into it ?— It was. nlVmlkc^enqul rles TRUOEAU 48 \» I i!i.^ II' !l ^f I I i! In ill mm ml ill ml lili MM lit' I liiiiL ii ^'Aiili-nrt No. »uttoii A 'I'lioinp- '■^>i>'« ti'iiilor .i2H,2iHi iiiun- tlian S\ill<»ii ii>rt r>f V.n- ^liK'cr ro<'o>!;- viipiitllntf IliiS li'ii' (U>r lor lu'cr))!- aiice. No Oi'ilcr ill 'Council. 771. You say you did iiol eiKiuii-c into it " vory (loo|)ly ; " dil yon oiiquiro far enough to uscorluin any rousi)ii, I do not know oi any. 772. You did not a.stortain any? — 1 did not. 773. You arc not awaro whothor this is the .same Sutton, a-i Sutton i,; tho lirm of Sutton & Thirtkoil ? — Mo. 774. llavi' y(.u noticed that the Sutton k Thomj)son tender is noarlv li{30,0U0 more than Sutton &Thirikelis' r— Yc^" ; tho ditl'orence iH82H,2iji'i 775. What is the price given under tho contract as Sutton & Thoni]. son's assignee, or rather to Oiivci-, Davidson & Co. ? — 8590 pei" niile tti woodland, Jind $435 jior mile tor pi-airio. 77<). Total for construction ?— Total for construction anJ mainteiuii.c combined is $2l3,li)(). 777. Will you produce the tender of Sutton, Thompson I'c Co. ? — Yi« (Hxiiibit No. 13.; 778. Do you know of any rcj>ort of tho engineer recommending ilii letRJer lor acceptance? — No. 779. Do you know whether thei'o was any Order-in it? — No; there was no Order in Council. 'cildircctiii: 780. Are j'ou aware ot any other agreement with Oliver, Davidsons Co. about ()])crating the lino — so far we have sjioken of construction an. maintenance only?—] would like to refer to th lions of the branch '' as defined in the H])ecirication " ; can you fJCC lose II bo the dirtorent sections in the specilications ? — Not at pro^font. d maintonai.ct J" this mail 795. Was tho contract avvardod to Poach ? — No. 79<). Why ? — On the 2Gth ol" August, Mr. JJraun ttdographod to Poach Mid said : — " Tho iMinistor wisho-i to soo you respecting your tender for Pembina Hranch immediiitely." On the 27th of Au<,Mist, Mr. Peach answers: \/'anr.ot arrange for my >ecurily id present, llavo written you by Pencil i!ld not !?i)t (•out met . n .^ Co. ?— Te«, mmonding lliiv 'Cildircctin: ver, Davidson ,\ ?,onsf ruction an. of tho JX'liai. was tho oaril F»ito tho City I ast of Pembins [0th of Aiigih: work ?— Yes. •I have not gt* us work? — Yoi- jach, Toronto. mdoring ?--Tt ins." )f thom?— Ye> specification; jwer. |l cannot say : And tho letter written by Mr. Pea 'li was : " 1 iini ill I'd'oij)! oi'yoiir telegram, and in rei»ly beg to say that, 1 Pincu wmitoa * have only been horo a short timo from lOngland and I am afiuid that sc''.*",,ny!'^" "'' \' I ciiiinot give you ilm satisfactory security just now, but if ^'oii can give me tinu to got a rojily from Knglaii , 1 could then give you all I' tho security you require. Awaiting your reply, etc." Then on the 28lh of Au^'ust, Mr. I>ruiin (ologiaplH to Mr. Poach : '• Cannot grant delay askeil foi-, thendbr must pass to next tender.") Dt.'lay rofuse>i. 7!I7. Whose was tho next tender? — Tho tender of Mr. Peach was 21 iv-acii's prioo 21 bents a yard, and ihore were two tenders lor an cij^ual price of 22 cents I)t'iie'r t'ru'.V ' ^^" 22cls. CT.S 111, Ml' tllCSC, Tondcrs opciHtcl 'JOlh Au)fnst, .sri. jach. 7!i8. Of ihoso Mr. W»iitehe.\d's was one?— Yos; Mv. Jo80])h White- wiiUoiicud'sonq icud, and Mr. A. II. Clark. 7!)1). Do you know when tho^c tondei-s wore opened ? — Yo; 8(10. When ?— On tho 26th of August, 1874. 801. Were you ])re.sont when they wore opened? — 1 was. 802. Mr. Whilehoad's tenders, one for tho central .section and the wiiitehoiids tcn- )thcr for the southern section, both appear to have been altered at some aJ cts^ p?.r cabT"^ kimo from 18 cents per cubic yard to 22 cents ? — Yes. , yani to22cts. 803. Do you know anything about that? — No; tlioy were altered Tender altered )eforo they were sent in to tho Department. ifepartmMni.''" 8fi4. They were in their pre.'^ont state when they were opened ? — :es. 805. Then tho contract was made with Mr. WhitehOvad on this lender ? — Yes. 8C(). Have you tho original contract or a copy of it that you can pro- luce ? — I have not got it hero, but I ca-i furnish it. 807. Will you produce Mr. Whitehoad'.s tender to be filed?— Y'es ; I low produce it. (Exhibit No. \5.) 808. Have you an Order-in-Council for this contract? — Yes. 809. Of what date ?— 7th September, 1874. 810. Was it tho rule of that time to require an Order under the [jircumstances of this contract ? — I have alroudy explained that tho Opinion was held by several officers in the Department that oven in this base it would not have been absolutely necessary to get an Order-in- jouncil. 4 ■»SMI TRUDEAU 50 1 Mailway Coii> Mlriictiun — Contract No. 5. Order-ln-Council produced. I I 811. ('iip you explain wh}' it was got, if not absolutely np^^essajy ?— Xo. 812. Will you produce the Order or a copy of it? — I now produce the "original. (PiXhibit No. 16.) 813. Can you now tell the date of the advertisement asking for these tenders? — The advei-tiseraent says "tenders will bo received up to " noon of the 25th of August." Sl-4, Has this contract been fulfilled by this contractor? — I thlKk that would be a pioper ([uestion to put to the engineers. 815. You are not prepared to give an answer ? — No 8jC. Are you aware Avhelher there has been any dispute between tlic Government on the one si'.le and the contractor on the other, on the s^ubject of this contract? — 1 am not prepared to go beyond the lettiii!'' of tiie contract. 817. Can you say whether there has been an}- dispu'.e or not? — I must refer to the books of the office before answering that question. 818. T.J there any other evidence connected with this contract that 3'ou think it proper to give us now — I mean which wo are not likely to obtain better from the engineers ? — No ; I have no desire to make !uiy other statement. 819. Do you think that the othoi retiuisitc evidence can be boLtei- obtninod fi'oni the engineer-^ ?— Ves. 621 TcTrKi-apli. Confi'iiet yo. i. Cojtyof Si f Ion, Glass A Go's, let- ter of the mil Oct. Flomlng's roport of siiine tlatc. RailwAjr Coil' ntriiction — Contract Wo. 5. Description In Bpeoiflcation ol work in Con. 1">. Wednesday, 18th August, 1880. ToissAi; T TuHDEAu's examination continued : Bi/ the Chairman : — 820. Will you produce the letter from Mr. Fleming to Sifton, ( ub- \' Co., of the 14th October, or a copy of it? — I now produce a copy 'li it. (Exhibit No. 17.) 821. Will you produce the "oporl, of about the same date, of Mr. Fleming's, or a copy of it? — 1 now produce a copy of it. (Exhibit Ni. 18.) 822. Yesterday you said that you would search for the correspond ence about operating section one of the telegia[)h line? — T have not had time to complete the search. 823. Have you any statement showing the annual expenditure or. this section ? — We arc now preparing a statement. 824. Speaking of contract No. 5 with Mr. Whitehead, I noti(0 that the spcciScations describe the work to bo divided into two section", the southern section being through townships 2, 3, 4 and 5, about 24 miles, and the central section through townships (>, 7, 8 and i», about 24 miles, which would make 48 miles ; but the contract appears to be let for about 63 mi !os. What does this mean? — The length of line isj not given in the contract. 51 TRUDEAU looessary ?— now produce cing for thesi; :'eivod up to 3r?— I thii.k i betweoii the ither, on the id the lettinc' B or not ? — I L question. contract that ro not likely (?ire to make an oe beltei' 825. Are the terminal points givet* ?— The contract says this : " The i southern section, which will bo in the allowance for road between I townships one and two, will pass through townships numbers 2, 3, 4 land 5 ; and the central section, passing through townships 6, 7. 8 and 9 and terminating at the allowance for road between townships 9 and 10, lying east of Ked Eivir, opposite the town of Winnipeg." 820. Is the allowance for roa I between townships 9 and 10 opposite e tow.: of Winnipeg? — Vou must ask the engineer for that infoi-m- ion. 827. If the line ha<^ been completed to any point notth of the line itween townships 9 and 10, it is irrespective of ibis contract ?—Ye''. 828. It is not embraced in this contract ? — No. 829. If it has been made further south than the line between town- ips 1 and 2, is it embraced within this conti-act ? — No. Rail«vM>- Coil- Ktrllctlon— lontraet So 5. Description in contract. t'diitract No. 33> Traclc-lnylnK and i[)iillaslin!? 1)1!- tweeu i^l. Boni- face aiul Kmer- son. ContnictorR— Ka- viiiiasli, Miirpliy .V- Upper. IgUSt, 1880. Si ft on, ( i;i!- ice u copy "j date, of Ml'. (Exhibit No. 5 correspond- T have nyt penditure on 3ad, I notiic two section", 5, about 24 kind b», about Ippears to bo; Ith of line isi (830. Do you know of any other contract for making this line cither nth of the boundary between 1 and 2, or north of the boundary tween 9 and 10 townships? — Contract No. 33, with Kavana^>li, urphy it Upper is for completing the grading, with all the track- yirig, ballasting, k(.\, between St. Boniface and Emerson. 83 i. Have you that contract here ? — Yes. if, I 8:}2. I>) you know whether any grading was paid for to Mr. Whitc- '^Bad on ttiesc portions that you speak ot ? — 1 would rctur you to the agineers for that; I am not able to say. B'.]'3. Was this branch of the line continued northward from Winnipeg, ir opposite Winnij)eg ? — Vcs. 834. riuler what contract ? — Under an extension of contract No. 5. 835. Have you a special number for this contract in /our books — I Jean the contract for the extension ? — la Mr. Flem it-'s reports it is illed 5 A. 836. Have you the original contract or a copy of it?— There is no No adiiitionai I !•.• 1 • ^i £■ c A. \ ^ !■ c t papers (1 law n ui> Idiiional paper in the form of a contract drawn up lor 5 A. n.rj A. liine contiiiiuHl north ward frotn Wlnnipi';^ iindiT extension of Con, ■). pallfil lu Flo- nilni;'s report.s .") A. CoiilriK't 't A. 837. ilave you nothing i^igncd by Mr. Whitehead showing that he [rdertook to do the work on this extension ? — There is nothing before le :-igned by Mr. Whitehead ; but Mr. Fleming, in u report dated 19th .pril, 1877, says: " Mr. Whitehead offers to do the grading on the extension of the Pembina Branch at the same rate as his original contract, and lay the track at the same rate as the present contract for sections 14 and 1")." My iinpres-sion is that Mr. Meming received a letter from [»'. Whitehead; we have searched for this letter bat have not ret. got it 838. Does this extension, as arranged with Mr. Whitehead, embraco ie grading, track-laying and ballast! ng ?— In the extract that I have Kven there is nothing said about the ballasting. No ilocntnent slKned li.v WliUo htad. FU-minK. (in tUo liUh April, 1«77, reported that Whitehead oirereii to jrrade extension of i'eniblna Braneli at same rate as his original con- tr.iet, and lay track Hi rates of Con. II and 15. ■!■> ; TRUDEAU 52 1: !i!^|:^ ' € V 1 P:\ ■all^vny Con- atriictioii — Contract 5 A» 8.i9. Was there any Order-in-Council authorizing this extension iti this way ? — Yes. 840. Have you the Order or a copy of it? — Yes; I now produce it (Exhibit No. 19.) 841. This Order seems to be based on the condition that the whole cost of the woriv to be done bv Mr. Whitehead was not to exceel $60,000 ?— Yes. 842. Do you know whether that condition was communicated to Mr Whitehead / — I cannot show bj' any document that this was comnm nicated to Mr. Whitehead. 842A. Are you otherwise aware that it was communicated ? — No. 813. Have you any report showing how much has been paid upoi. that extension ? — At page 350 of Mr. Fleming's printed report for lS>(ii I lind that Mr. Fleming states tliat the amount paid on his contract iii> to tlie 3lsl of December 1679 was $141,800. A fontiact ill tiio 814. Do you know whether any ert'ort was made to get a contriu' (mier-in-Coiiiu-ii for Mr. Whitehead u|)on the terms mentioned in the Orcle:-in Council ' not, e«»nsi(ii-ivii — jf^ ^yjj^ j^jf considered necessary that there should be a ."-eparate ooi.- tract. It was considered an extension of contract Mo. 5. 845. Was any effort made ? — No. 846. 1 see a note endorsed on this Order-in Council, apparently In your Law Clerk, " No contract made.' What is the object of lli;.! note? — It means nothing more than a statement that there is ii contract. Order-i n-rouncll authcrii!iu^ ex- tension. Order-ln-Couiicll based on ooikII- tlon that cost should not exceed 460,000. Witness not aware of this condition having been communi- cated to WJiitu- hcad. Amount paid up to 31st Dec, 1S79, $1I1,SOO. iiocessiiry. No cfl'orts to etrcct a roni rai'l Jiuide. 4 f47. When you say that it was not consideied necessary becaux this might be done under his tirst contract, do you mean that this woik was in any way referred to in his tirst contract? — Tiie tirst contrac says : " All the works required in and for the excavation, grading aiiii " other works contemplated to be done in the formation of the I'oad-bo; " of the railway branch intended to run from the main lino of tlio " Canadian Pacitic Railway to sonie point on the International bom; ** dary at Pembina (to bo distinguished under the name of the Pembin, " Branch) or so much thereof as the Minister of Public Works mnv "determine within the limits of the two following sections, namely and then follows the quotation that I made before. Length oi line. 848. Then the length, as I understand it, is not limited — by you interpretation — within the two sections named ? — From the reading o: the contract, it appears to be at the option of the Minister to construr the lino from the International boundary lino io the main line, " or -> *' much thereof as the Minister of Public Works may determiiic. within the southern and central sections. . 849. That is speaking as to the lino which was covered by the cor tract ? — Yes. Charac'cr of 850. Then as to the nature of the contract, what work is covered l)j| cont'ract!"'^*'^' ^^ '* ^ — ^^ '"* ^'^® excavation, grading and other works contemplated to Ij« done in the formation of the road-bed. oxlension in )w proiluco it hat the whole not to exceel nic'iitod to Mr I wa.s com in 11 ited ?— No. (cen ])ai(I upoi, eport for IS-^ii lis contract ujj fot a contrai. ei'-in Counoi! .' I i-epiirate oui- ipparently In object of 111 a'. at there is u sary becau>e that this woik tirst contrac n, grading aui >t'the I'oad-bo; line of tJK- ational bom: t the Penibiii:, Works may ions, namely ited — b}' you he readings: ii to const rill' 63 TRUDEAU lino, " or .- determine. by the coi- ls covered lijj opiated to b«| 851. And the only price named for that is 22 cents a yard, be!>ide8 lauling? Vee ; it is the only price named in this contract. I 852. Does that contract in any way rvSev to clearing, or fencing, or loose rock, or timber, or track-laying, or ballasting ? — [n the specifica- lion attached to this contract there is a clause which says : " On some tf portions of the prairie there are occasional groves of low poplar, I* willow or other light timber. Wherever the branch crosses any such I" groves they will be cleared the width required by day's labor, or in # some other manner. This class of work will be so trifling that it # will not be necessary to embrace clearing in the contracts for grading." 1 853. Can you say about what proportion of the expenditure of 141,000 is for the work of th 5 kind described in that contract No. 5, nd what proportion is upon other works not described in contract 0. 5 ? Name the separate amounts apj)roximatoly ? — At page 26, of a report prepared by Mr. Fleming, 1879, he states that "the approximate amount of work executed under this extension up to the 3 1st December, 1878, is $144,017.75, on acco'.int of which tliei-e has been paid $141,500. Of this amount of $144,017, $56,428 is for items named in contract number five, and $37,589 for other items." 854. Has this work, which appears to have cost over $87,000, been ■ubmitted at any time to public competition ? — No. 855. Have you any record of the directions givc-i to Mr. Whitehead fo perform this work ? — 1 find that on the 11th Mj , 1877, Mr. Braun, Secretary of the Department, telegraphs to Mr. Rowan at Winnipeg : " Authorize Mr. Whitehead to proceed with the Pembina extension as part ( f the first contract at 22 cents for earthwork, and the other work at prices as per his contract 15." And on the 16th May, 1877, Mr. Braun writes to Marcus Siuith, Icting Chief P^ngineer, as follows : — " I beg to inform you that on the 11th instant Mr. Rowan was instructed by telegraph to authorize Mr. Whitehead to proceed with the works on the Pembina extension as part of his first contract at 22 cents per cubic yard for earth excavations, and the otlier work as ])er prices in his contract for section 15." We liave not, in the records of the office, any letter to Mr. Whitehead. 856. Do you know whether it v/as discussed in the Department as prices of contract 15 being high or low for the work upon the ex- jnsion ? For instance, it appears by Mr. Fleming's report of 187!^> that Ln amount of over $24,000 has been paiil for the excavation of ofl'-take litches, at the rate of 45 cents per yard. Was the propriety of that [ate for this extension the subject of discussion in the Department ? — should like to refresh my raemorj' by consulting the papers. . 857. Then, without consulting the ])iper,s, do you moan that you do ^ot remember? — Yes; that is what I mean. 858. In order to refresh your memory 1 will call your attention to lis fact: that on the section covered by contract 14, which adjoins the Brritory over which this extension is built, the price for the same sort work is 23 cents, instead of 45 cents, and that that contract was reviously lot. Does that call anything to your memory? — I must )usult the documents of the office or the engineers. •trnctloii — Vontnct 5 A* Price— 22 I't.s. a yard besldt\s liauUng. Clearing so trl- fllDK not ncoe.s- sary to lueiiuon It In contiiu-t. }S7..")8n<)iii of $HI.(il7 lor works not nifnltoneil in the contnu'ts. This po-t Ion of the work never ^' siihiiiltteil to pn'illc coiiipell- llon. 1 1th May, IK77, Braun tele- graphed to Kowaii to autho- rize Wliitehiiid to procee were liigh or low lor the i'cnihina extensini). Th3 faet I hat 45 et«. a yavd were paid for eseava- tlon of olV-take ditches, whereas only 2:1 els. were paid on Wee. U, In no way rt^freshes witness'snuMiiory TRUDEAU 54 .:ll ■lalltvay Con^ «tmctloii — Contrnt-t Ko. 5. AUvcrtlsciTKmt for tcridcrs. Jf contract "> <>ml)rn awarded without competition. 870. All of it ?— Y'es ; all of it. S^!i''wV.u^''oX'-^ 871. Have you the report or a copy of the report from Mr. Fleinirc upon which the Order-in-Council is based, ordering this work to l^edoik by Mr. Whitehead ? — Yes. 872. Will you produce it ?— I now produce it. (Exhibit No. 2J.) 873. Have you any other original documents relating to tiii« extension which would give us information on the subject ? — Yes; i now produce a report from Mr. Fleming, dated May 2nd. (Exhibi' No. 24.) 874. This report seems to define the prices of section 15 which wore to be made applicable to this extension. It mentions " namely : tier 40 cts. each, track-laying and ballasting, $i90 per mile, " and nothiii. more. Do you know why other price^ for section 15 were mai applicable to this extension ?— No; 1 do not. 875. On April 19th Mr. Fleming's report contains this language " Mr. Whitehead offers to do the gra inderstood yi': Si.. Bonifut'o ' .isemunt. face ? — It wa- 1 Mr. Fleming' '^ork to 1)6 dotif It No. 2J.) iting to tii;« ject?— Yes; 1 2nd. (Exhibit 5 which wore namely : tie« " and nothin. 5 were ma'i. his language m of the Pom and lay tlu T sections li 65 TRUDEAU His report of May 2nd has this language: " An Ordor-in-Council be passed accepting the proposal of Mr. White- « head and defining the terms." The Order-in- Council makes no allusion to prices of section 15 Ibeing applicable to this extension, except as to these matters so defined : Can you tell me the authority that Mr. Braun had for telegraphing as ^e did on the 11th of May to Mr. Rowan ?— I cannot. 876. Does it appear to you that this telegraph, in wider terms than Railwsjr Cou> ntractton— Contract S A* Witness ilooa uot know Brail n's authority for tole- Krapliint; the ia- HtniCtlDIlS lo Rowan on tlx; nth May. Witness knows no other reason Ihiin Hraun'H tt!li>grain for Iho higher prii-i.'s. Tjettor about fent'lns'. reason tor it. 877. Have you any other paper that you wish to put in concerning contract 5 or 5 A which would enlighten us ? — I wish to put in a letter about fencing. (Exhibit No, 25.) 878. Was any action taken on this letter which you produce? — Yes. 879. What action? — I produce a letter which was written to Mr. f-etter loSraoUio. Smellie. (Exhibit No. 26.) 880. Do you know what further was done about this matter ? — No. 8 SI. Have you any other paper that you wish to put in ? — I have no [>ther. 882. Have you any further evidence t() give by way of explanation ^f your previous evidence on this subject? — Nothing at present. 883. Was there any other contract made in connection with the embina Branch, either north or south of St. Boniface ? — Yes. 884. With whom was it made ? — With Kavanagh, Murphy k Upper. 885. Will you give their individual names ? — The contract is signed M[ T. Kavanagh, Jame^ Murphy, and Joseph Upper." S86. Was the work included in this contract submitted to public 10 m petition ? — Yes. 887. Have you a form of the advertisement to put in ? — I have none yith me, but 1 can prepare a copy to be furnished afterwards. About what date was the advertisemeot ? — I have not got the Contract Ko. 33* Kavanagh, Mur- phy & Upper. 888. late. 889. What time was fixed for receiving tenders? — The first of March 1878. 890. Whose was the lowest tender ? — Mr. Kavanagh's was the lowest. 891. The one which obtained the contract? — Yes. 892. Have you his tender ?— Yes. (Exhibit No. 27.) 893. Is it based upon any form of specification furnished by the De- irtment ? — It is based on a specification prepared by the Department. 894. Is it the same as the specification attached to the tender pro- iced ? — The paper attached to the tender is not a specification, but a bill of works. 1st Marnh, 187S, tixed for reoelv- in^ tenderH. Kavanagh's teu- iler lowent. Tender produced. Ba.sed on speolfl- oatlon supplied by DepartmeuU TRUDI^AU 56 ■railway Con- Htrnctlon — Contraet Ko. 38. 895. Is it not intended that his tender Hhould be qualified by epeci- ficationa ? — The tender is to be upon the terms and conditions speci- tied in the 8])ecification8 bearing date the 18th of April, 1876. 896. Ilave you the specifications of the 18th of April, 1876, which 3'ou can produce ? — I have not ^ot the 8i)ecification here, but will pro^ duce it later. 897. What is the number of this contract.^— It is contract l>o. ."iS. 1 m 1) .' Work not com- pit'ted. qneiicf oiit of their haiuis, A dispute. Tiist of tenilercrs for this work. 898. Has the work been completed under thi-ir contract? — It has JlOt. contractorsfftiied 899. Has there been any dispute between the Government and the to execute a por- contractors upon the subject of the contract? — The contractors have taken In conse- failed to execute a portion of their \vork and it h:is been taken out of " ' ' "' their hands. 900. Do you mean without any dispute or diftbrencc? Were they willing that it should be taken out of their hands? — Theie was a dispute. 901. What was the nature of the dispute? — I would rather ajipcai before the Commission with the jiapcrs connected with the dispute. 902. Have you the contract here? — Yes ; but I do not wish to leave it at present. I will prepare a copy for the Commission. 903. Have j'ou a list of the persons who have tendered for this work ? — Yes. 904. Can you produce it ?— Yes ; I now produce it. (Exhibit No. 28.) 905. Aic these tenders based upon an approximate estimate of the quantities, and a schedule of the prices attached to such work ? — They are. of tenderers** ns°'' **^^* li* the relative position of the pcrsons tendering ascertained liy rcrtaiued by monej'ing out thosc schcdulo prices? — Yes. inoneylng out ^ <=> fcchedule prices. 907. Have you a report .showing the result of that moneying oiU ?— Yes ; and I now produce it. (Fart of Exhibit No. 28.) Report shows 908. By this report the persons who got the contract aiipear to have lliat contract was i iU i * . i • ^i .. i . i- o ^r jtwarded to low- made the lowest lender; is that your understanding .'' — les. est tenderer. 909. Has there been any dispute between the Dooartmcnt and any other persons who tendered as to relative positions ? — tin, 910. Is there anything about this contract that you can explain beyond the evidence that you have already given ? — Two of the parties who sent in lentlors mjitJe mistakes in the extension of their figuro< and these mistakes wore corrected. 911. Has any dispute arisen on that account? — No. 912. Do you know whether the Department, or the engineer, or any- ^ one lias kept an account of the quantities executed since taking the^l contract out of the hands of the contractor ? — The engineers are keep EnRlneers kctj)- Sdk account of'^ ■work executed film Oovern- mei took con- trol. ing an account. 61 TRLVOCAU k1 by speci- itions fepeci- 76. 1876, which »ut will pro [•act No. .'53. ict?— It \m lent and the r actors have taken out of ? Were they Ihei-e was a atlior nppeai dispute. wish to leave ercd for this E.xhibit No. imate of the vork ?— They scertained liy eying out ?— ppeur to have es. lent and any can exph\in of the parties their figuicv ^inecr, or any- e taking tlie^| jcrs are keep •Iructlon— Coiiti act No. :t3.. 913. Do you know whether it is done by day's work or any Done by day's iabsequent contract? — It is not done under a subsequent contract; it work. Is done under day's work. J Final estlmatt^ of W 014 Do vou know whether a final estimate of the executed quantities quantities cxe- Iwas made up to the time of taking the contract out ol their hands ^— taking of con- Ifhe final estimate is not yet made. [?actol^ h^JT ■)i holnji preparetl. s 915. Has it been ordered to be made ? — Yes; it is being prepared by be engineers, but it is not completed yet. 916. Will these documents to which you have referred give the time >t which the work was taken out of the hands of the contractors, or do |pou know now?— They will. M 917. Is there any other information which you can give now about ^his particular contract ? — No. m HMllivnv Ties— ^ig Cuiitrai-t No. SB.. 1 918. Was there any other contract entered into in connection with ulhe Pembina Branch, and if so, what is the number of tlie contract ? — gfes ; No. 36, for the supply of railway ties. 919. Who is tho contractor? — William Robinson. « 920. What is the date of tho contract ?— February 22nd, 1878. 921. Was this f?ubmitted to public competition ? — Yes. 922. Have you the advertif^oment asking for tenders ? — No, not here. 923. Can you produce it afterwards? — I am not sure whether we Bnta(ivertiseubllc conipeli- tion. 925 here cl Who opened the tenders ? Was it in your Department or some- Tenders were , ,, fni X 1 1 i H7 • • opened ut Winnl- ;ltje { — The tenders were opened at Winnipeg. pen. 20. Who had charge of that matter ? — Here is a ropoit from Mr. NM-voncxpiaininj? ,ma8 Nixon, explaining what was done. ^^"^^ ^^"^^ ^'""'• 9 Lhomas 927. Is that the best evidence that you have about that matter in rour control ? — 1 now produce tho be.'^t iMormation that I can lay before the Commission. (Exhibit Nc<. "'^.j 928. This report from Mr. Nixon is addressed to Mr. lirnun, Secre- Documents ro- iry of your Department, and refers to other letters and documents, 5^'[xon's'report to lave you control of them? For instance, he speaks of Mr. Martin's be produced. letter respecting which he had telegraphed Mr. Braun, and also of a letter to Charles Augustus Nolin ; he also refers to a telegram of the 19th of February to Mr. Braun and to a message from Mr. Braun of |.he 20th ? — Yes ; I can produce those at some other time. I have not jot them hero. 929. Tn what capacity was Mr. Nixon employed by your Depart- Nixon paymaster lent ? — As paymaster. 930. Where did he live ? — He dates his letter from Winnifieg. I 931. Did he live there, as far as you know ? — I don't know where he lived ; he lived in Manitoba somewhere. TRUDfAU 68 llnilway Ties— Contract Ko. -Jtt. llti'M mi 11 :i - iManaupmcnt left to Marcus .Smith. Nixon Imtl made a proper selee- tlon. On2!»tli Oet., 187i", contract taken out of contrac- tor's liands In consequence of delays. Tender was iie- •cepted liy Order- in-Coiinoll. Nl.\on left the tracklaying of the Pembina Brancli was being delayed in coiiso- quence the contract was taken out of the contractor's hands and a suili cient quantity furnished by the Department at his expense. 937. Have you any further knowledge of the matter of this contraoi, or would it be better obtained from the engineer or any other person .' — 1 refer you to the engineer. 938. Do I understand that there is an Order-in-Council ? — There U an Order-in-Council accepting Robinson's tender. 939. Have you that Order to be produced ? — 1 have not ; but I caii get a copy of it. 940. As to the payments on account of these different matters, have I understood you to say that we had better ask the engineer or accountant as to the particulars, or Avill you be prepared to furnish them? — The engineer and accountant will know quite as well as I can. 941. Is Mr. Nixon still in the employ of your Department? — No. 942. Do you know about what time he ceased to be in the employ of theGovernment?— In 1879. 9J3. Did he resign, or was he removed ? — The position he had w.a,s> abolished. 944. Was that the subject of an Order-in-Council? — I am not pio pared to answer that. Ottawa, Thui>day, I9lh August, 1880. ToussAiNT Trudeau's examination continued : By the Chairman : — 945. There were some papers asked for yesterday, which you thougii; you would be able to get to-day. Have you brought them ? — They art. now being copied. 946. Is there any other contract relating to the Pembina Brand! besides those which we considered yesteitlay ? — Yes. 69 TRUOEAU vas it fi-amei V to ret'oivi' I, the Acting- prepared tllO to do so ill Mr. tSmitli's \lv. Nixon o[ tisfaotory to ilei'od ai lln; ?— YOH. page 129 of H that on tile ties, and a> ed in conso- ls and a suili- 0. this C'ontruol, ther poraoii ? 1?— Thoru i, i t ; but 1 call liters, havo I or accountant them?— The jnt?— No. le employ of he had was. am not pro- just, 1880. you thougiit ?— Thoyare ibina Brancli J>47. Wiiat is the subject of tlie next one in point of time or number ? Tlie erection of station buildings. 948. What is the Pacific lluilway number of that contract ?— No. 4f*. [t4I). Who was thfi contractor ? — Eichard Dicicson. ItSi). What is the date of the contract ?— 15th August, 187'J. , ind the time for receiving tenders was the 15th of July. 9.")^. Where was it advertised ? In this province, or in Manitoba, or (n both? — I can give that to the Commission at some future time. 95.'). Were any specifications furnished to persons lenlering? — Ves. 956. Can you produce a copy of them ? — Yes ; but not at this moment. 957. I understand you to have one before you whi^h you read from, )ut which you wish to keep as a record of the oflSce ? — Yes. 958. Have you a form of the required tender which can be produced ? — have a form, but cannot produce it at this moment. }i will produce It hereafter. 959. Have you any list showing the relative positions of the different persons who tendered, or was there only one tender? — Several tenders Vere received, and a list of them is printed at page 32 of the Blue Book sailed "Tenders for works on the Canadian Pacific Railway since fanuary, 1879." 960. Was this contract awarded to the person who made the lowest tender ? — Yes. 961. Have you the tender? — I will ^end for it. 962. Have you the contract ? — Yes; but I would ask leave to prcxiuce coi>y of it hereafter, as I wish to retain this as a record in the iJepart- lent. 963. Is this contract made according to the terms of the adverti.se- lent for tenders? — Ydi. 964. I notice attached to this contract a separate indenture from [oreties. Is this under any new arrangement ? — It is not a new ar- ingement. 965. Has it always been customary to attach documents of this kind contracts relating to the Pacific Railway works, in the Department? -Yes, up till very recently. 966. I notice in this contract, section t, that the cost of the work limited to a maximum sum specifieJ in the contract. Has that been jual in contracts on the Pacific Railway? — No. »M-H(nttnn Biill Nlriif'tioii— Contract No. 13, Spr-flfi cations (Ltiven totcntlor- TTK. 27tli Feb., 1S7.-), latest time for re- ceiving tonclers. 9Cr. This contract is upon a printed form; is there any settled form alopted with that condition in it now, as a rule, in the Department?^ Each contract stands by itself. They are prepared by our law clerk, Hnd transmitted to the Minister of Justice, and are there approved of or amended. • 0m8. Has the work under this contract been fulfilled ? — Yos ; Mr. Firming, at page 314 of his general report for 1880, says that thi.-* con- tract has been completed. 969. Are you aware that there has been any dispute about the mode of its completion or the prices jmid ? — No. 9tO. Do I understand that it has been completed to the satisfaction of the Department, as far as you know ? — Yq^*. 971. Is there any other matter connected with this contract that you can explain ? — Not that I can think of at this moment. 972. Can you now put in the form of tender upon which this contract wai lot ? — Yes , I now produce it. (Exhibit No. 30.) 973. Can you now put in the form of specification on which the con- tract was lot? — Ye.s; 1 now produce it. (Exhibit No. 31.) 974. Can you produce the Order-in-Council which authorized tlie contract with liobinson, as to the ties? — Yes; I produce it. (Exhibit No, 32.) 975. Was thei'c anv other contract i-olatini; to the construction of this portion of the Pembina Branch? — No. 976. What is the number of your first contract for any poi'tion of the construction of the Pacific Railway between L;ike Su])ericr and Rvd Kivor? — Contract 13. 977. Who is the contractor ?—Sirton & Ward. 978. What is the date of the contract ?— The 3rd of April, 1875. 979. Wus this work let by public competition ? — Yes. 980. Have you a coi)y of tho advertisement ? — Yes. (Exliiliit No. 33.) 981. Upon a pi-evious occasion you said you would produce a state- ment of expenditure upon the telegraph coi. tracts ; ai-e you able to jiroducc it now ? — Yes; I produce a statement signed by Mr. Baiiic, Accountant. (Exhibit No. 3i.) 9 2. Wore any .specifications concerning the work on contract 13 given to persons tendering? — Yes. 983. Have you a form of the specifications which you can produce?— Yes ; I produce one, and it embraces the bill of works. (Exhibit No. 35.) 984. What was tho latest time for receiving tenders ? — The 27th ofj February, 1875. settled form partment?— r law dork, iproved of or •— Yo«i Mr, hut thi.H con- (Ut the mode latistUction of ract that you this contract hich the con- ) ithorized the it. (Exhiljit iiction of til 1.1 )o;'tion of tin, or and R>^^(1 •i1, 1875. ji?. (Exliiliit uco a state- you ablo to Mr. Baine, 1 contract 13 1 pro luce?— ;s. (Exhibit The 27th oi ei TRUOEAU 986. Have you a stateniont nhowing the persons who tendered?— •truftli 11 ~ Contract No. 13. flSG. Can you produce it?— Ye^; I produce the original. (Kxliibit Lut of i,.tuieierK. lo.SG.) 987. This last appears to be certified by Mr. Braun, Mr. Ilovvan and Jr. Palmer ; are you yourself aware of any of the circumsiancos con- lected with the opening of the lenders beyond what that certifies ? — Jo. 988. Then your knowledge as to the opening of thofo tenders is bused ipon this certificate ? — Ve-i. 983. Attached to this certiticate is a ioj)Oit by Mr. l-'Ifiiiing showing the eight lowest tenders ; have you any knowledge as to that slatennMii beyond what is shown there?— No. 99 ». Are the facts correctly stated in those certificates, as far as you ctiow ? — I believe they are. 1 have not audited the list, but 1 believe It to be correct. 991. Were these tenders based upon a sch<"lule of prices applied to Ihose (quantities given in the bill of works? — Ven. 992. By Mr. Fleming's certiticate, Cliarti-rs iV: Co. appe.-ir o you know whether that was understood in the Department fo he all !ip|)roximate estimate or not? There has been some diffeiem c )f opinion, I notice, in the evidence before the committees, between Mr. 'leining and the Minister of Public Works as fo the meaning of thtit Bstiinate and these words ; have you any knowledge as to how it was inderstood in the Department? — 1 understood the words "approximate [uantitios " to mean as explained in the bill of works. The bill of mrks says; " The quantities in this bill are furnished for the purpose I' of giving an approximate idea of the nature and magnitude of the ['contract, and to admit of acorapal•i^on of the tenders. Tlie Department I' of Public Works rosoi'ves the right to vary the location and alter the works in any manner that may appear advisable, and such altei-utions shall not invalidate the contract. Tiio quantities of work so altered, [' whether above or below the quantities now fuinished, shall hereafter I' be correctly ascertained and paid for according to the schedule of Y prices in the tender which may be accepted.'' 99i. You have not understood my question. That is the intended effect of the use of the words upon the minds of the persons tendering, 'ly question is directed to this: what was understood in the Depart- lent to be the meaning of the words ? Was it understood that those luantities gave an estimate approaching accuracy, or were the quan- Rties entirely speculative ? — My understanding was what is conveyed |d the bill of works. 995. I have not made myself intelligible. Did you understand that Utianiitiosnamed fche quantities named in this bill of works were nearly correct, or that ipprox'tmato'ly'' khey were speculative? — My understanding was that they wereapprox- correct. jmately correct. TRUDEAU f,2 Railway C^on- Miriu'lioii— Coiiti N('( N*. I3> WltncMS iiionnN by " lipDI'OXl- iiiivfely ooiTt'ct " as rorrcct. us llicy could iKMibtilliied on the i)rolll('. Af (trciis 8iiilt.li (It- poHi'd In l.S7i» tliiit tills contract was lot bflore survey. Witness suppoHos from Kleiuitiu's report that a trial location had hceu iiiiidc bcfuri' • •ould bo on the protilos, btit not as closely as coidd bo nioasui-od latei on the ground. 9i)7. Then did yoi iindorstand that those quantities were, at all events, as correct as would be obtained after the location ol' the lino ' — I n-idersinod thcni to be as correct iis coidd be obtained on tli' nr.) file. 998. Is there a profile made before a location ?— There is u protlL; made of triid locations. 999. Then tlo you mean thnt the (luantities were ascertained by pro- files on triid locations in this inaliince? — Yes; as far as I understood i; 1000. And that the ([uantities were named as closely u» they could be named on that kind ot o.xamiiuition ? — Yes. 1001. Mr. Marcus vSmith gave his evidence in Mtirch, 1879, before a committee of the Senate, in which he says thtit this contract "i" ' before the survey was made; do you know if that was correci'.'' — You will observe that the bill of works referred to is dated Januiiry 20ili, 18l5. Now at pai^o 51 of Mr. Fleming's general report for 1877 he says, in the fourth year — 1874 — that in the autumn the location of the lino between Thunder Hay and Lake Slicbandowan — a distanco of 1,") miles — was commoncoil, and eonsiderable progress was made by the on i of the year. I suppose the statement made by Mr. Fleming is corie't. 1002. And that consequently a trial location had been made befor- these quantities were stated ? — Yes. 1003. By the report of Mr. Fleming which you have jiroduceil Charters it ('o. a}i])e!ir to be the lowest tenderers. Do you know why they did not gel the eoi. tract ? — Mr. Chtirters withdrew his otter. 1004. How is that communicated to the Depiirtment ?— On the 12[: of March, Mr. Chaiter.s telegraphs to Mr Braun: "Telegram received, and liaving had no answer from you rogardin. " my tirst request for (lelay of time, I was compelled to relinquish coi; •' tract a^fainst mv will." 100.5. Have you the coriespondenco showing what he had asked, or copies that you (;jin put in ? — On the 3rd March Mr. Braun telegraph^ to Mr. Charters : " Are you ready to unilertake contract for railway between For: " William and Shebandowan, as tendered for on the 22nd ult., and in " compliance with the Railway Act of last Ses.^ion, chapter 14 ?' 1006. To what place is that directed ? — Dorchester, New Brunswick ' 1007. What is Mr. Charters first name?— E. A. Charters. On the^ 4th March Mr. Charters telegraphs to Mr. Braun : " Not anticipating decision so soon, will require short timo to set:s| ' others concerned. Think my tender will come under head of clau>e?* " 12, General Provisions, chapter 14. Will in all probability accept, ,* contract and mahe deposit of cas'h, stock and bonds ot amount reqnirei^ ,' if a little time is allowed." fa i 68 TRUDEAU iin? — In eon- tioii and tho Dse inoftHuiv- , as ckwely a> oasuroil later wciv, at all of the lino ' 5(1 on tlir pro- is a protili; Lainod l)y pro- unclorstoot;i bability accep:|| nount requircii^ Rnll\*'»y Coil* Nlnictloi'.— 13. On Iho lllh March Mr. Hraun toiographs to Mr. Charters: " Not hearing from you, and aniplo delay boon allowed, the Minister * has i)assed on to tho next lender ,., r. i Then comes tho telegram of tho 17th March, which I have road. '^ 1008. I underbtand that you are reading from copies, not tho original, If this covrespondenco ?— Yos ; from copies. lOOlt. Who makes tho next lowest tender ?— Mr. Taylor. Js7t'?nM"'n,r.'"''" : 101<». Can you explain why ho did not got the contract ?— Mi-, ly;;^^;;'-.;^;;; ';,;,., 'aylor, in a telegram to Mr. Hraun, dated !5th March, says: .; •' Still contined to my bed. Will have to abamion contract." I 1011. Where is that from ?—Orillia. i 1012. Do you know whether any deposit was made by these persons tendering at the timo of tender?— I will givo the answer in a few Hainutcs. ♦ > 1013. Have you the original tender of Charters vt Co. ? — Yes ; I now l^oduco it. (Kxhibit No. 37.) 1014. Have you the original tender of Mr. Taylor? — Yes; I mtw reduce it. (P:xhibitNo.38.) roni Fleiiiln_''8repoiti . ^ 4,vv.— ..-,^, - _- »{5, *-v/iiLi 4ii^ t .1 wi u IT 1 ; I liiiii to "Shebandowan. Taylor is the next above Charters. If Mr. Smith has R.'f.KTicotoiroii. ".not heard fi'om tho latter, I should say it would Ix) advisable to pa<^s •^" •'• ^•»'"'- Hover him and enter into contract with Taylor. Do you approve? ( " Y''ours, &c., '' 8. Flkmin(>." lOld. To whom is that aJdressed ? — It is not addressed to any one. inl7. Do you know for whom it was intended? Who is tho Mi-, ftnitli referred to? — Tho pencil mark .says " Hon. A. J. Smith.'' '^ IdlS. Do you know wh}' he was named? — Probably because he was of the same locality. Possibly tho Minister of the Department may have in([uircd of him whether ho was a competent and able man . I 1010. This is a surmise ? — Yos ; a surmise absolutely. '' 1020. What is this pencil writing in the corner ? — The pencil memo- randum in the corner is : "Mr. Smith will let me know in the course ot tho day — Wednesday." It appears to bo signed secretary — "sec." It iiipnsHibly a memorandum by Mr. Braun. § 1015. Attached to this tender of Mr. Charters is a short i-eport fn %r. Fleming; please read it? — "(irading, contract Fort William Conjectures of \vit!ii'ss as ti) rt'len'Mco to Hon. A. .1. Smltli. Momoriiniliiin ro- lativc to Smith. 1021. This repoit of Mr. Fleming's seems to suggest the passing on to Mr. Taylor, providing Mr. Smith had not heard from Mr. Charters ; 4p you understand why Mr. Smith's hearing should be material ? — I do BDt ; you must apply to Mr. Fleming. 1022. Did either Charters & Co., or Mr. Taylor ask for any return deposit, on abandoning these tender.", that you know of? — I will bewer this question later. 1 1023. Attached to these tenders of Mr. Charters and of Mr. Taylor apparently signatures of two sureties in each case. Do you know len they declined to take the contract whether any claim was made kainst the sureties in either case? — These were sureties offered in case Does not ktiow why .Smith's hearing from Charters slioiilil be material— Re- fers to Fleming. No claim mado against sureties, as they did not guarantee tliat tenders would l>© adhered to. TRUDEAU 64 Vadiv^y Con" atruotlon — CoiiiractNo. 13. f laiiKuaKi-' of ilo- <;'uiin'nt 8l);ne(l l>,v surelU's How interprotod *>y DepartJiieiit. »'ollt IMct fill- ^^•lH•k l)et wcmji Fort WllHiini ami Mii'liaiulowaii. C'lmiit,'!' Ill liica- tinn cjuisi il <'(Hi- I liii'l lo tcriiii- linlc iiciir Siiii- ^hiric ( rci'lv. Lino sh<:)i-toii.'il tho contract was entered into. The; were not Rureties guaranteuin;,' ♦^Hat the tenders would be adhered uO by tho parties tendering. 1024. That is not the langiia*jO of the document they sign. I wii: read it: — " And in case this tjnder shall be accepted, we hold ourselve- " ready to enter into contract for the due execution and completion o; '• tho work, or so much thereof as may be required; and we otter a- '•' sureties for the carrying oui; of all conditions, as well as for the dut " fulHlraont of tho contract, the two persons who have signed their " names to this tender for that purpose." Has tho interpretation o: this undertaking in tho Department been that the suroLios are no; liable until the contract is entered into? — Yes. 1025. Have you the tender of Sifton & Ward ? — Yes ; I now produc, it. (Kxhibit >:o.3U.; 1020. ]I:ivo you tlu' contract based oa this ten ler ? — Yos ; I liav. here 4lio ongiual contract. 1 will produce a copy to bo filed. 1027. This contract is for work between Fort William and Sliebai. (lowaii. Has t lie contract been t'ullillod? — I tind at pi>go 388 ol' Mi Ficiniiig'.-i gcnorul report fjr 1877 tho statcinont that "alter tho vo " tiact was let, a change was made in the location of tho lino whir. " cut off about \2\ miles at the woslorly end and reduced the quaiili;, " of work about one-third. The contract now terminates at a poii. " ncaf Sunshine Crock, length 32^ miles." 1028. Without reference to Mr. Fleming's report, are you not awaiv that the length ot the linu was sh )i'tened 7 — Oh, yes. 1021). lias the worl: which ha^ buen done by Sifton it Wai'd und.' this ctjntract been accepted a.-, a fiiliilnieiit of their iluty under it?-! bhall look in tho Department and refer to the reports on the inattei'. 1030. Have yoi;, within your own knowledge, any estimate of lii cxpen>liture upon tho portion abandoned, and which was originally included in this contract? Or is that to be obtained from some oIIh branch of yoar Department ? — I have not. The onginoi'i's will i:iv y ou that intbi-mation. Rnilwny Stn- lliia li.iildliiKs, I'tiitliiiia Mrmn'h— OoiiliaL-t 5ro 4t). BniUvay f oii> Htl'IK'tioll — 4'outritct So 13. Claim lor coin- pen sail on. 1031. Can you jiroduce novv Mr. Dickson's tender for contract 49?- | Yes; I now produce it. (Exhibit No. 40.) Marcus Hnillh took cliarnf of outtlcinenior iliis claim. Continct Nu«33. 1032. Aro you aw.M-o that compensation was claimed by the co ^1 tractor on this contract 13 for the keeping of men some weeks bcfm " the engineer arr'»'ed to locate the line?— I am aware that there wa'^J such a claim. j;0o3. Do you remember who took charge of the settlement of tlil cbiim? — 11 y recollection is .at it was Marcus Smith, Acting Cliiej '<; ngip.eer. 10. J4. Can you pr'»di!Co tho bill of works for contract 33? — Yes, novv produce it. (Exbib No. 41.) 1035. ('an you produce the spocitications for contract No. 33?- Yes; I now produce them. (Exhibit No. 41^.) 65 TRUOEAU aranteuin:,' ;n. I wii; id oni'8olve< jiplotion (i! kve offer a- 01* tho duv igned their )rotiition o ies uro no low prodiuv 'os ; I hav. ed. md Shebiii. 388 of Ml tor tho t'n lino wliir. the iiuaiili'v ■i £t a poll. )U not a\v;u\ jWai'd uniK'! iiidei- it? -1 le matter. imate of tiic IS originally, some otlKVi i-s will irivi n tract 49?-! by the conl voolc8 bctoril at there wa!| imcnt of thfl kctiti Cliie; 33 ?— Ye^, 1036 What is the number of your next contract on the construction etween Lake Superior and Jlod iiiver?— The next number alter 13 is To. 14. 1037. Who were the cont'actors? — Silton & Ward, I 1038. Wa.s this work lot by public competitiv-n ?— Yes. i 1030. Have you tho adverti.semcnt awking for tenders ?-- -Yes. |Exhibit No. 41^.) 1040. Was any s])ecification or other information furnished to persons tendering? — Yes. 1041. Can you produce them ? — Yos. (Kxhibit No. 42i.) 1042. Were the coatractors the persons who made tho lowest tender? --No. 1043. Who made tho lowest temler ? -According to tho report of ||r. Klomitig dated 31st of March, 1875, the lowosl tender received on <«Cinlract 14 was from Wallace & Co. 1044. Are these tenders based ujwn a schedule of prices? — Yes. 1045. Which are to ap})ly to tho quantities given in the bill of works ? •«ji-Yes. : 10 It), And by iii'>neying out tho.^e items you arrive at the relative jsition t)f tho jjarties tendering? — Yes. 11047. This report pi-oposes to show that position? — It dues. J1G48. Have you tho tender of Wallace & Co. ?— Yes. (Exhibit 41) [1040. Some copies of telegrams are attached to this tender ; hove j)u I he messages to which these were answers, or copies of them? — BH. 1050. Aic they in such a shaj)0 that j'ou can produce tlicm, or do Ml wish to keep them? — I have not got them in such a .shape that ley can be j)roduced, but I can road them. On the 25th of March, Mr. raun telcgi-aphs to Wallace: I" If your tender for contract fourteen is accepted uiv vou ready to Imakc deposit recpiired ; if so come. Contract papers must be completed nthin eight days from this -answer." lOn the same day, 25th of March, Wallace, telegraphs to Mr. Braun : I" I am ready and will be there to close contract first of next week." ih\ti is signed " R. J. Campbell." |1051. That is signed by a Mr. Campbel' ? — Is ho one of the parties adoring?— Y'es ; Campbell was one of tho parties tendering. 11052. Under the name of Wallace & Co. ?— Yos. Mr. Campbell, on 2!llh, telegraphs to Mr. Braun : *• Just heard that section fourteen was awarded to us. If necessary i-ill you extend tho time to qualify five days— answer." ")n tho 30th Mr. Braun telegraphs to Campbell : I" Time cannot be extended ; matter too urgent — answer."' ')n the 31st Campbell telegraphs to Mr. Braun : When will time expirt.; answer immediately and oblige." RalUvAy^ Cou* •triictlon- Contrat-tNo. 14, Contraolors, 91 f- tou A Ward. AdvprtlsotiKMit calling for ten- dors. Sf i, glv(>ii to 1' we.st tenderer. Wallaoe A '"o., lowest tenderers. Ti'iidi'rs based on sclK^ilulf oi" i>ric<^H Tender of Wal- lace A Co. Tolei»rani>< be- tween l>ii)t. and Wallae>; A. Co. Contractors ajv ply for extension of time. Refused. ) . V qq ?,^B^"^ o" ^J>e »amQ day Mr. Braun tolographs to Mr. Campbell : .^o. d^ f-H. -pi^^g expires Friday, 2nd proximo." V^.^-x- ■Mi TRUDEAU 66 RalUvny Con" NtriK'tlOII— C'<>litrni'>>i KoM, i-i nu at. (hu .■saiiif time. Part IPS U'lidfrcd lit Haiiie time Tor II and l.'i. Lontrtli of poii- tracts. Coiiliiict IVn. 14. Work iiwardod to second lo\vi.'.>t lendi-rer. By vorl)al order of Minl>ter. Braiin writes to Reec! ver- general report, 1877, the length of 14 is given as 77 miles, and at page ■'jS'J the length of 15 is given as iWh miles. 1050. Jieturning to contract 14, was that telegram, which you liavc read, the last of the negotiations with Campbell or Wallace A: Co. ? — Yes. 1060. What steps, if anj', were then taken as to the next lowe>! tender? — The woi k was then awarded to the second lowest tender. 10()1. In what manner was it awarded. P>y Minute in Council, ny order of the Minister, or how? — It was awarded by order of the Minister. I(ltl2. Have you any record of the award? — There is no record, Hm;;. Vol bally, do you mean?— It must have been verbally, for I have no record in the ollice. lOtU. Wiis his decisioti communicated to the persons who made the next lowest tonJer? — I have nothing belore me, bull shall refer to the d(K-tunents of the ollice. 1005. What is the next comtnunication you have, either to or from tlio.-e parties who mtide the next lowest tender?— 1 have here a letter dated i'8th .\pril, from Mr. IJraun to the Jleceivor General, which is as follows: — "1 beg to inform 3'ou that Messrs. Sifton & Ward, contractors lor " the grading and bridging of the Canadian Pacitic Railwjiy between " Ked Jtivcr and Cross Lake, contract 14, are required to deposit i" " your credit 820,000 as security for the due fulfilmont of their cnii " tract. When that deposit shall have been made you will pleun " transmit your certificate to that effect to this Department." 1006. AVas there any report or recommondution from Mr. Flemini: by which this contract was to bo awai*ded to these parties ? — 1 do noi think so, but I shall bo able to reply more positively as soon as the person who has gone for papers to th«; office returns. 1007. You will remember that attached to the tender of Charters A Co., for (-oction 13, there was a letter from Mr. Fleming recommondiiii; :V... 67 TRUOEAU :. Will be Xotiiy me 15 by the 15 ?-Yes. ^ccUorlS II i times for iilverlisc- ntrai't. No. length . .. Flemings ami :U paj.''' eh you havr ce kCo. ?— next lowcM ft tontlcr. Council, nr )V(ler of the rec'ortl. ji-bully, for ! '1,.) tnadc the Jl lufc'f to the !!• lo or from hero a letter I, which is i\i n tractors lor Hway hotwecii [to deposit to lof their con (n will plu"^*^ hit. Mr. Fleming jH ?— I do "'^'' ku soon »w the lof Charters Ji| Tccommcndind BHilway i;ou- Nti'ut'tinii — that the contract be awarded to the next lowest tender. Do you know <^«»"**""«* ''^"- **• why there is no such recommendation in this case? — 1 have no doultt the Minister consulted the Chief Kngineer before he awarded contract 14 to Sifton i^ Ward ; but I do not know why he did not report on tlie subject. IV, 8. If tenders were accepted in their regular order, and because Usual prar-i ice to lower tenderers were not willing or were not able to fulfil the terras, was '"""'*"" Hi'ming. it usual to consult the engineer as to the propriety of going to the next lowest tender? In other words, was that a matter for the engineering- branch of your Department or for the mannging head ? — The engineer was consulted. 10(39. That was the usual practice, do you mean ? — Yes. 1070. Have you any record of his being consulted in this case, about Noiccdki that contract 14? — No record ; but that does not mean that he was not con- aho"iuuuTnlrt*ii. suited. 1071. Has this contnact been fulfilled by the contractor, as far as vou <'<)iiiii««t uutrui- know? — ^ot completely liy this contractor. tmctor. 1072. Was the work taken out of the contractor's hands by the Gov- ernment, or w.'iH it by some friendly arrangement? — Before answering that (piostion 1 wish to consult the documents of the ofWce. 107.'5. Have you a report showing the relative position of the persons Fiirninir's irpoii, 'tendering, made by Mr. Fleming on this contract? — Ves ; I })roduce ""* '" ^' '"''"^" :it. (Fxhibit No. 44.) 1074. Are you prepared to give the amounts expended on these |ditl'creiit contracts, or would you prefer us to get that information frotn |g(»rne other otUcer in the Department? — I ihitik you can get it better flrom the accountant than from me. . 107'). What is the number of the next contract on construction [beiwccn liake Superior and Jied River? — Contract 15. 107(J. Was this work submitted to public conipetitjon ? — Yci. ^ rDulriicloix, Sut,- 107i. \Vho were the contractois ? --Sutton, Thompson it Whitehead, ton, Tiiomi.s< »'><• sed on the tii-st advertisement for tenders. There were several adver- Mscments. 1080. Ilavo you the first advertisement for work on this section ? — Te-i ; it is the same as the one produced on contract 14. i 1081. That led to no contract ?— No. 1082. Do you know whether the second udvortiseinent led to any )ntract?— It did not. 1083. Tids contract was let upon the third advertisement , was it? r.'V'V'"'!' ^'.V'"'* y ' ' third advcrllsfi- ' ' ""• lueut. 1084. Have you the third advertisement ?— Yes ; I produce it. Exhibit No. 45.) ^ ., 5^ 1 4if. .... ! . TRUDEAU 68 Ballway Oon« Htnictlon— Contract Mo. IS* SpeolflcatloiiN. Lint of (onders In Blue liook. Bill of works. A. P. Macdoiinld & Co., IdWl'St It'll- dorerN.dtd luitget tondoi the coiitriu't. 1085. "Were specifications and other particulars furnished to persons tendering for this contract? — Yes. 1086. Canyon produce them? — Yes; I now produce them. (Kxhibit No. 46.) 1087. Was this tender based upon a schedule of prices applied to estimated quantities ? — Yes. 1088. And the relative position of the tenders was ascertained by moneying out the pi'ices and quantities ? — Yci. 1089. Have you any report or information showing the relntive po8ition of the persons who tendered ? — At page 10 of the Blue Book called "Return to an Address, of papers connected with the awarding of section 15, on the Canadian Pacific Railway, 1877," there is a list of the tenders received, with the amounts. lO'JO. Are these amounts named in the list based upon a bill of works furnished lo pei'sons tendering ? — Yes. 1001. Can you produce the bill of works for section 15? — Yex; I produje it. (Kxhibit No. 47.) 1032. This list shows A. P, Macdonald &Co. to have made the lo.vest did they get the conti-act ? — They did not. TendPr of Martin & Cliarlton. f 1,(100 deposited with each lender. 109J. Tiio Blue Book to which you have referred contains some cor- respondence on this subject; do you know of any correspondence relating to this subject besides what is shown in this Blue Book ? — This return was prepared as a statement of all telegrams and correspondence with parties tendering, or with any other parties, in relation to ten- derers or to the contractors, and 1 believe it is complete. 1094. And do y .)U believe it to be correct as far as it goes ? — I do. 1095. Have you the original tender of A. P. Macdonald k Co.? — Yes; 1 jiroduce it. (Exhibit No. 48.) 1096". Have 3'ou the original tender of Martin iV: Charlton ? — Yes. 1097. Bo you produce it? — Yes; I now produce it. (Exhibit No. 49.) 1098. Do 3-ou know whether any deposit was made with those ten- ders, as required by the specifications? 1 think the specifications call for 81,000 ,vith each tender? — My recollection is that deposits were made. Cannot say at 1099. Do you remember whether they Wore returned to these per- were returned!*'^*' ^o^^ whoso tenders were not accepted and who were unable to give security ? — I must refer to the otiice for that. Noruietoprcveni 1100. The second tender appears to have been made by Martin it given to one of"*'' Charlton, and the report shows that on the 2l8t December E J. Charl- tonderin^'"''"'"* ^"" withdrew his tender. On the 29tb of the same month, the other person, Patrick Martin, communicates with the Minister, stating thai, he is ready to perform the work and give security. Is theie any prac- tice or rule in your Department which permits or prevents a contract being given to one of several persons tendering when the others with- draw?— There is no such rule. S^King^Sr-* ^^^^' Then, 08 you understand the practice, on the 29th of Decern- tio', who had ber Martin alone wout th( as a V' me iiti< 1 1 to I w. mat! 69 TRUDEAU persons Exhibit plied to iucd by relative ae Book warding I a list of I bill of -Yes; I le lo.vest nome cor- pondence k ?-This ipondonoe n to ton- —I do. & Co.?— —Yes. ;hibit No. M hose ten- ilions call )bit8 were these per- e to give Martin k J.Charl- tho other ftting that, any prac- contracl lers with- of Decem- -if he could A have ^iven Bpcuriiy ? — Yes; on the 6th of January, 1877, the Minister reported to Council, and in his report the following ])aragraph occurs: — " The letter of Mr. Martin, one of the members of the tirm of Messrs. " Charlton k Co., already referred to, contains a statement that ho is " prepared to proceed to give the necessary security, but he did not " tender any security, and as he had been given the opportunity of two " months to do so, it would have been evidently UHeless to wait any " longer on his account, petting aside altogether the matter of the rup- " ture of the firm of which ho is a membei ." 1102. D)e8 that qualify youi- ojiinion previously expressed ?--- It does not. 1103. Are you still of the same opinion ? — Yes. 1104. Then do you think that the rupture of the fir a was not uuiterial ? — Not the rupture of the tii-m ; but the fact that he did not inuko the deposit for two mouths was material. 1105. But the rupture of the firm was not material ? — No, 110b*. Who makes the next lowo.>«t tender ?— Sutton it Thompson. 1107, Will you produce their tender? — I now produce it. (Exhibit No. 50.) 1108. Give me the names in full of the members of the firm ? — H. T. Sutton and William Thompson. lloO, Are these the same parties who tendered for the telegraph contract ? — I do not know. 1110. Was the contract awaided to them ? — Y'es; to Sutton &. Thomp- son. 1111. ITow was it authorized ? — By an Order-in-Council. 1112. Have yon a copy of the Order-in-Council ? — The pi-intod copy of the Order-in-Council is at page 32 of the return to the Address ro- fi'rrod ti> in one of my prev.ous answers. 1 here is a typographical error in it ; the «1,;'9I,000 should be 81,504,000. 1113. Have you the contract ? — Y'es; I now produce it. (Exhibit No. 51.) 1114. ho you know whether the dealings between the Department and the per.sons who have done the work under this contract have been with Sutton, Thompson & Whitehead, or with oneoi- moroof that tirm ? — They were at first with Sutton, Thompsor) k Whitfjhead, but since then an Order-in-Council has been obtained recogni/.ing Mr. W^hitehead as the sole contractor. 1 1 15. Have you that Order ? — I have not got it here, but I can procure a copy of it. 111(>. Was the work on this contract within the estimated quantities mentioned in the specifications or hjis it exceeded the estimated quan- tities? — H has excoeled the estimated quantities. 1117. Largely, or to a small extent? — Largely. 1118. Do you know whether the progress estimates that are furnished to the Department gave any infoimation when the estimated quantities w. :'i first e.^oeeded, either in gross or in detail ? — The progress esti- mates did not give that information. Railway Con« ■tmctioii — Contrart Ao. 15. written that, ho was preptiretl to go on without Cliarlton, hud fallpil to put up senurlty, and that, bemdea, thn flrni WHii brokua up. Witness, not- wlthstaudlnK Minister's report, of the snnie opinion tliiit the rupture of the nrninot material. Sutton A Thomp- son the next lowest tenilerers. Contruei award- ed to tlicni l>v Urtler-in-CouncIl, Ordi'r-lii-t'ouncll ree trnizln^ Whit<'hi-ai| us sole eontrnctor. Work li.as larRoIy exeeeiled tlie esti- mated (|UatitltteB. Pro({ross esll- iniiles did not Klve Infornuit on that eBthnated ({Uiintltli'si had been exceeded. TRUDEAU 70 Kailway Con- Mtriidiwii — Coiitiact \«t« 15. Not possible for Uept., wllhoul ndvlcH" of cnxl- iieors, to know whetlitir work ■was li^oing to 1)0 more expt'nslvo than was esti- mated. No record of esti- mated iniaiitltie.- kept. 1119. Was it pos.siljle fov the Department, then, durinef the pi'ogrosi of the work as executed, to know whether the work wa.s goint^ to he moio expensive than the tetiders intimated? — It was not possildo without, recourse to the engineers. 1120. Do you keep any book or record of the estimated quantities, so that it can l)e a.>e proper to stop oontrnct wtien quant 11 les readied, del)ated. Also wlietiier it would not t)e ex- pedient to eliant;e Krades from 52'2opt. shortly after it occurred. Ottawa, Friday, 20ih August, 13S0. ToL'ssAiNT Tri'deau's examination continued; By the Chairman : — 1121. According to your system, may the executed quantities lai-gely exceed the estimated quantities without the Department being awaro of it? Is it possible? — No, it is not; for the engineers are in constant daily communication Avith the Department and keep it informed. 1122. Are you able to say now whether, in reference to pcction 15, thoydid keep the Department informed of the fact, as soon us itoccurreii that the executed works were co.sting mtjro than the estimateiJ works ? — I have no doubt that they did ; and what recalls it to ray min I is this fact: I know it was discussed in the Department whether it would not be proper to stop contract 15 when the quantities in tho contract were reached. This thing was very seriously discussed. Another proposition discussed was, whether it would not be expedient to change the grades. It was thought that the grades might be change i from 5J*2b' to 80*40 ^ca^ to the mile This vas very seriously discussed and very favouralily entertained by Mr. Mackenzie at the time. Another thing which brings it to my m nd is this: that on one occasion, before the Committee on Public Accounts, a question was raised us to the incrensed cost of these works, and I recollect that 1 stated there, before the Committee, that I advocated the change of grading, and that it had been discussed in the Department and the Minister was favourably disposed. 1 12.3. Favourably disposed to what ? — To the change. That is what brings it to my mind, that on both sides of the Committee there was a strong expression that the grades of the road should not be disturbed. 1124. I do not under.stand how the strong expression on both sides of tho Committee would affect this particular question, but perhaps it does. In the meantime, do I understand you to say that the knowledge that the cost and quantities of the works executed exceeded the cost iiiid quantities estimated on section 15, was known to the Department, and tliscii.ssed there soon after it occurred .'' — Yes; I gay that it was, and I have quoted those things simply to show what brings it to my mind. 1125. You have no doubt now that you are right, and that it was al)out section 15? — These dist ussions apply to all the .sections, bii! section 15 was very much the subject of debate. I yet. 71 TRUDEAU e progress to 1)0 mo 10 »to WltllOUt, quantitios, are put in, s ? — VVe do ast, 1.3S0. ties largely cing awuro ill conslaiii rined. poction 15, I it occur red I estimated to my mill 1 wholhor it itios in tlio discusHed. expedient bo chango 1 ly discusHcd »e. Another ■*ion, before 1 iw to tiie liere, before tliut it had fa von rabl v 'hat is wliiil here was ;i disturbed, )oth sides of nips it does, w lodge that le cost aini rlmont, and was. and I my mind. [hat it was eclions, Ijiu rav Ci Mtrnctlon — Cuiitravt No. 1.5. 112*!. Without reference to other sections for the present, aie you aware whether li'is excess on soctiou 15 was l>rought to the notice of the Popartmont and discusseti very soon after it occurred ? — My impression is that it was verbally. 1127. Have you ascortaineil whether any deposits were' made with Oeponits were the tenders in the case of section 15? — I have ascertained that deposits I'lurs'for^scr. n"' luivo been made, and we are now prejiaring the list. 1128. lias it been the practice with the Department to forfeit deposits rrnci ici- us to made with tenders when the parties who made the tenders with- sVts'^\'iVA''c<.nsUHt. drew or omitted to fulfill the conditions? — The practice is not constant. 1129. What is the usual practice, or is there any understanding about rhequosjmtsumo u usual practice? — The practice is to retain the cheques, but some of ''"ve '>*'«" '"- the chcijues have been returned under special circumstances. spt'l'iki "rrVinu. 1 l.JO. Xot under ordinary circumstances ? — No. 1131. Are you aware whether any of the securities, in the shape of cheques or money, on undertakings connected with any of the offers iibout work' on the Pacific Railway have been retained by the Govern- ment in consequence of failure in the performance of theotler? — I cannot answer without referring to the Department. Orilor-iii-rouiK-U 1132. You spoke yesterday of the Order substituting Mr, Whitehead vvhiiI.hvH"i'''for for the firm of Sutton, Thompson & Whitehead for section 15 contract ; the finn oi Sut- ti)i', Whi Thoii' psou Jt have you got that Order ? — 1 produce a copy of it. (E.xhibit No. 52.) I 1133. Have you the contraci or a copy of the contract No. 33to f j)ro.ltice? — It is not ready yet. fl 1134. Have you contract 13, or a copy of it ?— It is not y^t ready. )1135. You spoke of some correspondence concerning disputes on contract No. 33; have j'ou tliat ready?— We are not (^u.te rca ly 1136. Contract 15 covered the ballasting and track-laying over the grading work that had been done on section 1-t? — Yes. ContincI No. 20. 1137. What is ihe number of the next contract, on account of con- !'!'"' {"f-' *'=•• wtruction, between Lake Superior and Rod Kiver ? — Contract No. 25 ( •'reHk'iim"En'J- "^ llsll KiVLT. 1138. What is the subject of that contract ?— Grading and bridging, iind other works, between Sunshine Creek and English Jiiver. 1139. About' how many miles? — About eighty miles. , Extent, so iiiii„«. lUO. Did it not also cover some work over part of what is known Also rovrtrod iis contract No. 13 ?— It also covered track-laying and ballasting from b'lmlVuS'imm'^ Jort William to English River — that is 112 miles altoirethor. '''"'■i wiiiiam to ° English River. 1141. Was this work let by public comj)etition ? — Yes. 1142. Have you the advertisement asking for tenders? — Yes; i praluce it. (Exhibit No. 53.) 1143. Were specifications and bills of work furnished to i)ersons !?!?T,' ?,?*','*"'' , tendering !--\ es. fiirnish.Mi to ttMiilorers. 1144. Have you copies of these to produce now ? — No. TJ TRUDEAU 72 Builwfty Coil' •tmction— CoiitrAct No* 35. Price based on i><-hted to statt ossary 5 per !iow that Mr, . Purccll, very of the persoiiv whow that lU ?-Yes. all connectcl 73 TRUDEAli >lRllf««|r Coii- Mtriivtlon— 1160. I notice a letter attached to the tender which sayn that Purccll C"»t'««» «"• »*• willing to raise the bonus to $500. Doea that atloct tho value of tho ndor in any way ?— No. 1161. It did not alter the terms of the contract ? — It did not. 1162. Have you the contract No. 15? — Yes. 1163. Can you produce it ?— This is an original; 1 will produce ;i py of it. 1164. Have you the corrcspondonco showing what led up to the Lepartment?— There is a dispute. 1.1169. Did the executed works exceed the estimated works on this excet-VkVi csiimnt- 0(1 very coiisidi-r- ttbly. was usial i" 10 time wen the managin.' nister, or thv not always It J were opcnoi ,sion that tht | if them ; ami | owed on lli' •0 ?_Yes , tilt Fleming an: 'f^ tor the rcccip; .|^ alty or bonih'k are that thea Kxci'ss principal- ly on excdvatlon. t lU- )ntract?— Yes. 1170. Largely, or only in a trifling degree ? — Very considerably. 1171. Do you remember upon what item the principal excess was? — Bxcavation. 1172. Of what material ?— I do not wish to speak from moTuory. the Commission would obtain this information from tho engineers more lircct. 1173. And more correctly ? — Yes; more correctly than 1 can give it, jeaking from memory. 1174. Was there a re-measurement of the executed quantities upon Rf'-mcasinvnion . r ^1 i ^i /ii • I- n ■ 1 -i • 1 ol oxecut(!il quai ns contiact--i see that tlie Chiot hngmeer recommends it in the titles, ^torests of the public ? — Y''es. 1175. What was the general result of tho ro-moasuromcnt ? Was it Re-menNnroment verify the previous measurements, or to show that they were too low h.l^^tiian'niV'tirst too high ? — Tho re-measurement did not agree wiih tho first measure- meusureintut. lent, and at this moment they have been referred to the engineer who ^ado the first measurement lor report. 1176. Do you mean that they were loss than his measurements? — "icy were less than the first measurements. 1177. Who made the re-measurement? — Mr. L. G. Boll, lilngineor. 1178. Who made the former measurements ? — They were made by a 111' of engineers under Mr. McLennan. ;1170. Who gave the certificates upon those previous measurements; Bre they by the staff or by a single engineer?- 1 cannot remember. TRUDEAU Rallwiiv I'oil" NirMrlioii — Cuntracl .\«». 45. Mftlfer roicrroil t'X'iijfiiiccr will) iiiaile tlrHt iiumi- 'surciiiiMit for I X' l>lariuli()ns III smnniiT of JHN), McLenimn'N Kcrvlces ili~|)t'ns- "iX wltli. Some pxplanii- I1011S linvc hceii tflvfii by him. Not I lie practU'P <>{ Di'parlmoiit to initiHlalti'ratloii!! ill tender*. 1180. You say thut this mousureinont by Mr, Hell has bocii rofii: back to the j)or.son who mixlo tlie provious moaHureinoiit ? — Yes. 1181. Yon (Jo not moan Mr. llu/lowooii? — No; it lun boon refoii to Mr. McLonnan. 1182. Jh Mr. McLonnan still in tho omploy of the Dopartmont ?— N 1183. HiiL you expect him to make a report iUv your inlormation - Wo expect ho will (ielenii his previous m<,;isureiiiont. 1184. Then, is the matter rofoi-reil to him with that view — !hat : may defend it? — Ills i-eferred to him with the view of receiving a: explanations that ho may otter. 1185. Can ^-ou remomhjr in round numli'rs the ditle;"once in va of the work as corLitiod by him a id by Air. Boll ? — I would i-athor 1 >peak from memory. 118G. Was Mr. McLeiiiwin dismi.^sed, oi- did he rosii^u, or how oth wise did ho leave the sorvico ? — Mr. McLennan li;i.s only lately leH ii service. 1 1^1. 1 was not askin^^ about the timo ; I wasaskintcal)out tho man ill which he left it ? — Durinij tho last winter Mr. .McLennan was out tho survey, and on the coniplelion of the survey this spiin>^ or suinim his services were dispen.sed with. 1188. Then he had completed any work upon which ho had lnv en^fii^od fi)r tho Government before ho left tho servioe?— Yes ; ho hn completed his survey. 1189. Has ho fjiven any explanation of the ditt'eronce in quanlit as ascertained by hini, and by Mr. lioll ? — Ho ban not done so — :i completely. 1190. Has ho not comjiletely <^ivon you any cxplanatit)n, and il'>i it by correspondence which you can produce? — Yes; he hns, by cor pondence. 1191. Which you will produce, or a c )py of it ? — Yes. 1192. Can j'ou givo tho certificates of ent^ineer.s showing tirst wu the excess occurred on this contract beyond tho amounts of w ): estimated at tho time of tho tenders? — Ye.;. 1193. Do you know whether there is any recognized practice in tl Department that upon tho opening of tenders, if any ofthon\ appeaiv to contain alterations theso alterations should be initialled, or notcii some way, by tho persons who oj)enod the tenders, so as to j)revt subsequent alterations, or suspit-ion of them ? — It is not the practice 119L I notice in this tender of Purce'l's that alterations have In" made upDn at least three items after it was tirst prepared : " solid n ■ excavation," " rock excavation " and •' ballasting" ; do you roraoiiii whether it happens that the tinal increase or decrease in quantitie.- ])rincipally upon theso items, or any of them ? — It is on theso iteub 1195. Have you tho certificate of re-measurement of Mr. Boll, < copy of it, that you can produce, showing the ditl'eronce between th; and the previous measurement ? — I can ])roduce a copy of it. 1196. And tho final measurement by Mr. McLennan? — Yes. 75 TRUDEAU boon I'Dfui; ?— Yo.M. boon rel'iMi irlinoiit ?— N ilormatioii '- viow — that jiicc in v;i ilii riUlior I, or how oUi hiU'ly letlji (lit thii mail IKlll VVUH (till iiig ov .suinn,, ho had lie — Yes ; ho h: in quiintii; done so — i; i)n, and ilM' Ins, hv'oor:. ng tii'st \vi, unl« of wr i-aclice in t: Vim appeaiv , or notcii !iH lo ])rovi 10 praotico iH have Ik " solid I' ou reraoiii! quantities heso itomr 'r. Boll, .r Cuii« wtriirtloii — 4'oiilrnol N» 14. 97 Can you proiiiicc tho contract witii Sit ton it Ward, No. 11, coiiy <>i .oiitrma copy of it ?-I. now produce u copy of it. (Kxhibit No. 57.) Vv'anil' o'"' |l98. Can y -u prod iico tho bond i^'ivcn by way id Hiiroty for this itruct or a copy of tho bond i* — I n<«w produce a copy of it. Ihibil No. 5S.) Al'.itt. Have you a copy of the specitications for con* act !.'> In pi'o- couirKct Xo. 1,5. jan ?— 1 now produce a cojiy. (K.xhibit No. .09.) liOO. Have you a copy of the bill (d" works for contract 23 to pi'o. ^.^ ^e/ — I now produce it. (Exhibit No. (JO.) '»iitru«'t Sn. !4.'S. I20I IJavo V(»u the Minute of Council authori/.ini' tho oporntin;' of '»'«i«'K«"i»»» *»»• tolegiapli lino by Oliver, l^ividson & Co.? — I now produce it. «'oiiirH«-i a». 4. Ihibit^(). HI.) [202. Have yt)U any notification, or copy of it, from tho on<(inoer, or one in your Department, to Oliver, Davidson \ Co. coiicorniiii,' opor.utiii^'of this line ? — Yes; and I now produ.,coii- tniclorH. March Ttli. IS7!t, iluic orvontruft. [214. 1 sec by the advertisement that other work than this was (iiuK-.i m a.lvcr- tlseriK'iit lor ten- ders. Iluilod in the advertisement foi tenders ? — Yes. [215. Were all the tenders for this work received by the (iovern- Time for recoiv- it before the time named in this first advertisement? — No; the leMd.'-dl"'"^'^ "^^ \e was extendel. I2I1!, Vas the date for the extension inserted in any newspa]|)ors >i'o \\w time had elapsed named in the first advertisement? — Yos. TRUDCAU •7 c Nlrnctlon— C'oiitrnct No. 41a Timeextondod 1217. Wcro all tho tondciN wliirh w.)ro considorod by Iho FV; RiK'r Hwonti ad- rnoiit in rofereneo to thiH contnict rocoivod bof'oro tho tiino nnmijf iho Hocond advortiHcmont? — N'o; tho time was iijujain extunded. m^ 1218. Was thli* extension advortisod boforo tho timo name Meccmd advcrtisomcnt had expired ? — Yen. 121!). Have you any Htatomoiit or report Hhowing the relative lions of Uie dillerent parlies who tendoied, after tho tenders i opened ? — There i'h a printed copy of a report by Mr. Fleming, co- * ing a lint of tiio tenders received. (Ilxhibit No. UG.) Lift of lend(>r.i. I- Ide-t )rso lpon( ] () Ml who wh diiii 1220. This report which you have proonden( llanK'nt 15. Y( lean 1 3en £ 16. Tc -firsi in, '< I leers f i1. Hi ice?- of it 18. Is 19. Hi Irtmer TRUOEAU i hy tho I), 3 tirno iwuiv; oxtundcd. g no namc'l ii' tho rclativo [ tho tondois ' Florniii^', cii- ' r IM Hoventei'ii | id 1880, aii.l it twonty tri n tho Blue Hoventoori loi 10 roturn. iHcropancy, , JiooU ?— T.I roady for tin . Flemin^'V i made tho 1 ns, lull ol WOlkH. Tw()-lnl(l con. II- lloii as to IIiid; of I'oinpl.'tloii a.lo|>lo», 4 it 1250. Do you know whether the progress estimates, as they Ik, Itoen mado, show that any of tho ([uantities originally estiinated I'di- piirposos of tendering have been oxceoded ? — 1 refer you to the ongin , on that. I cannot say from memory. CoiilincI Wo. 42. 1251. Wo will loave this (•i>ntract for the pre.sent. What is the n, (Mntract relating to eonstruction between Lake Superior and f?jd iJiv. — (-ontraet V>. Frusor, MiiiiiiinK 12r)2. Who worc the contnulors ? — Fraser, Manning Sc Co. A Co. ^ This work suh- ,.■,-,» .ir i • i i •, i . ,i ,• ^i , i i iiiiitcd to I'oiiipc- 120.5. \V as this woi'k siihnntted al tiio same time ttiat the last i lilnens^nntniVr ^''•'"^ ^^""^ Hubinitted for public roinpetition?— Yes. 11. Timo for re.-.iv- 1254. Weio the times l'i)r receivinL^ tenders extended in the ^ui icn.k'd. way f—\ es, 1255. Aud by the same advertisements ? — Yes. lL5f). Have \o.i any lepoits or corrospoMiIeiice I'eforring to this i tract l)eyond (hose mentioned in the returns and reports which » have put in already rehiting to contract 41 ? — Xo. >r(.rs<-, Vichuison 1257. Who ma, Nichol.son 8. Have you that tender t— Yes ; and I nov iwoduce it. (Exhil No. 72.) ■ 1269. Did these parties get the contract ? — No. finish tl Ihoy fulled to niuke depubiU J70. Why not?— They failed to make the deposit reciui red. , as they !k, tiiiiated for ■ o tlio eni^iiii. hat is the in nd ll^d Kiv, ed in the sii; ng to this I )rtH whitli 1 >i"80, Nichols xhibit No ',' i as to .scci! uuiilitics, a rolativo ]w j)poars Ui y. Klomiiii. ,'()u that In 1 I ho forii n it Mai'ii' iXo. vith(h'awal, nt is print ones & Co. e It. (Exiiil i red. 79 TRUDEAU ,71. llavo roll any Lorrospon(!onco or doctimonlH showiiii^ this idrawal or faiiiiro on their part?— Tiie reasons and corrospondeiico ich M 'o the rejection of this tender are given in two reports to Oobncil, dated LJrd and utli >ii' March. These reports and Ordors-in- Conncil will l»e found at pages 23 and 24 of the Jilue Book. J 27?. Aie von personally aware of the cireunistances connected h the lejection ol this tender, beyond what appears in the Blue »k?-No.' 73. From whom did you receive the next lowest tender ? — From icr, (Jraut it I'ithlado. 1271. Have you their tender ? — Ves ; I now produce it. (FiXhihit : j[27.'>. Was the contract awardel to those parties? — Yes. i27t). The tender of Andrews, Jones it Co. appears to have been to finish the road for through trains in July, 1S81, whilo tlie tender of tlio Pties who got (he contract is to finish it a year later, do you know Bther any ditVeroiiCe in value was attached to the tenders on that mint? What 1 mean is this: was it not considered in the Depart- _^nt that finishing the section at ".n earlier date was worth a higher Ujfce than linishing it at a late aate '•' — Vc'. ^77. It apjtoars that the contract of the present contractors is over iO,'M)ll more than the next lowest tender, and rc(|nires the road to _|hni>hed a year later than (he other olt'eretl to do it. Do you know Sfcny other reason for not giving it to the lowest temler excepl: that '■iy had failed to tieposit t'>o pccuiity ?— 1 know of no reason except one which is given in ihc report to Council. 1278. Did you pi -.^onally take any part in tlie discussion abmU this jitter as to the propriety of refusing the extension of time which was ted fl>r i>y Andrevvs, .loins it Co ? — No. 1279. Was the contract awarded to Fraser, Grant it Pitblado? — Ves, some additional names. |!128>X Have you any correspondence, or copies of it, relating to tlio rodiictioi'. of new names? — Yes; 1 now produce a letter. (Exhibit 74.) 1281. Do you know the addresses of Andrews, Jones & Co., to whom extension of time was not given to make the deposit ? — Mr. Andi-ews, foiNew burg, N.Y., Mr. .Jones, of Brooklyn, N.Y., and Mr. J)rake, of n Catharines. 282. Did you ever hear any question raised about the responsibility hese parties? — No. &1283. Do you know the names and addresses of the persons whoso idor was accepted ? — On the tender Mr. Fraser gives Iiis address as ^w Glasgow, Nova Scotia; Mr. Grant, Truro, N.8., and Mr. Pitblado, ^uro, N.S. gl284. Have you die original contract fcr section B ?— I have, but I ^uld rather produce a copy of it to bo tiled. ''ZBS. la thi ; work in progress? — Yes. Kallway '~oii» Mtl'llt'tiOII — Coiilrnit No 42. Reasons mid (•i)r- rcspoiuleni'e re- hilliij; to M;.' rc- jcclion 111' IhiMr li'iidcr (jlvi'ii In liliio IS <8^, as I ho tlnit' lor thilshinu contract whili! IIk! time HximI hy tender of Andn.'ws, .lories .t Co , was,Inly,l.S.si. A money value attai'lied to linisliint; tlie oon- .rael earlier. Kalliire to ileposi) seeiirily, sole reason why con- trael not H:iveM to lower tenderer. Wit ness took no pari in the iliseus- -lon ••e--pi'etiii;| piopriei y or re- lusint; extension 111' ttiiie to An- drews, Jones A- I'd r,elter relatlvp to Intioilnellon of new names hy Kraser, (J rani it I'ithlado. No i|itestlon re- gard I nt; rc.spiin.si> hility ol'the/ier- sojini/ of An- drewsj.IonesifcCo. Work In progress. TRUOEAU 80 RftiUvKv Coil- Mtmct ion- Contract Mo. 4a. No disputes h<>- twcen contTiu'tors and (Jeparlmeiit. lloth Morsf'.v Co. aiut Aiulrcws, •loiies A Cu. inmlu c it. (Kxhibit s contnuf p.m. on liK' en oi on li )!' receiviii!,' his cjiHe?— -Yeb. name tKo was from 'os. Yes. e with tho til each or do you moan that things in the safe ought not to be embraced in "n the*"safe wuu * po leturn ? — There is no reason why it should not have been embraced <■•'« cheques. tho return, but it was locked up in a safe with the cheques and was )bably overlooked. ml325. Have you another return showing tho result of all these ttnders compared with each other? — Yes. ^1326. Is this embraced in the printed returns? — Yes, substantially. 1 1327. Does tho Department continue to deal with Fraser, Manning Do , respecting this contract, or has there been any change since the iking of the contract? — I will answer that q^uestion later, after Iference to the oflBce. Contract Mo* 13. 1328. Can you now produce a copy of the contract with Sifton & BrftoJ* wrrd"* ird, No. 13? — Yes; 1 now produce it. (Exhibit No. 7b'.) co. TRUDEAU 82 Failway €oii- Htriictluu— Coiiiract No. 33. ,„r«o /-^ i n , ^t ir,.„....a.ri, 1329. Can you tn-odiue ;i copy of the conti-act No. 3.^, wii Murphyv Upper. Kaviinami, iMurpiiy tV lijj|u r r — i es ; I now produce it. (h.vliili Nn. 77.) Conlr««-t Xo.40. 1330, Can you produce a copy of the contract No. 4!) ^ — Vr-, n<»\v produce it. (Kxhihii No. 78.^ Coil I rite I No. 44. 13:51. IV paper No. t.'i II u copy of the u'tual contract, No. 4- '- It is. 1332. Does it contain the a;,jreoinenL abo it suhstituting other porsoi. for the original contractors ? — No. BM-iiHtUx mill Ott.wva, Saturdav, 21st Autrust, IS^o I'Hy IIK'ltlH oil ■ o ' Ari'Oiiiil. Tiiu.ssAiNT Trtideau's examination coiii liiued : By the Chairman : — 1333. Can you state now the particulars of the securities given wii the tendei'H or with the conti-act.s, and which might have been forfcite to the (Tovernment by reason of tlie default of the persons giving th socuritios? — 1 cannot at this moment, but I can get a statement ]ii.. )tare of any portion of the Pacific Railway ? — No. 48. 1339, Who is the contractor? — John Ryan, fract^f^(?rs?'iu.n. 1340. What is the subject of the contract?— It is the first 100 mi tireciinneswcsiof section wcst of Red River, Jieil Kivtr, 1341. And for what work? — For grading, bridging, traoklayitii: half-ballasting, station building, &c. Work let by pui.- 1342. Was this work let by public corhpetition ?— Yes. lie competition. -^ r r 1343. Have you the advertisement asking for iHndei*8 ? — I will pri duce a copy of it later. J^^ Ain?u»;t, 1870, 1344. Can yon name the date mentioned as the last for receivinr ceiviif/tendeTe. tenders ? — The Ist of August, 1879. 1345. Have you the specifications or bills of works upon which thebe«j tenders were to be based ? — Yes; 1 will produce c-opiej later. Contract No. \i. Contractor ; John Kyan, [es io. 3S, \vi' it. (Hxhil 49 V— Yi->,: •A, So. 4'2 > nhiiv porsoi 83 TRUDEAL*^ Rkiilwny Con- ■ttriirtloii— Contract Ao. tU. igust, \H^i). !S given wi; been forft'itc ns giving tl. utenient piv mtrsict, .sliow 0, undor ou' ! based on tl V to comjilt:- getting tl,;, contracts i ?— Nolhii.. 3on3tructi'i st 100 mi .rai-k-layingil I will pro-j or receivines which theee* ■er. 13iG. Are the ^pcciticalione and bills of works ultjiclicd to the con- pact?— Yes. 1347 llave you the contract or a ropy of it ? —I have tlie original win produ^-o n ntrac't here but I will produce a copy to be tiled. •.'.''liVmX"'"'' 1348. Have you any report sliowing when the tenders for this work fere tirst opened ? — Ye.s ; but I cannot produce it at this moment. 1345). 1 notice that there are two pets of Hpeeitications attached ti) (j.Murai and s|x - liiH contract: one called "general speciti.-ation,' and the <>thor ;;\;;m'o.;1iw^^^^^^^ (.pecial specification ;' were they both liirnished to i»ers(»ri.s lendci- >soiin tfuiiering. lo- ?— Yes. ij 1350. Who made the lowest tender?— Mr. Hall. ""I'l!"'''''''' ^''''' i 13.')!. Have you the original tender here '.'' — Yoh ; and I now jiroduco :|t. (Exhibit No. 79.) I 1352. In the Blue Book of 1880, I notice at ])age 34 twn c(iliiinnri nisiinction ix^ ;.;jelaiing to this atid other tenders, one being lieaded "total as per ten- Ii'i^irul.v'isct'rteu. Per, " tiie othei' " total as revised : " will you explain wh} any revision ti-ix. %as necessary ? — The column headed " total as per tender " is a list of ^he tenders as received ; the column headed " total as- i-evised " con- lains the same tenders, deducting the fencing and one-half of the ballasting. 1 1353. Is that deduction made to apply to all tenders? — Yes. y 1354. Is there any condition permitting the Government to make ciauM- uivitiK puch deduction, either in the specitications oi" bills of works, or was it p,',\^J^M.'iI','l',luk.- «he subject of a subsequent ari-angement ? — In the fourth chune of the iis. %pecial specification called the Colonization line from ^Vinnipo.g, in l|4anitol>a, I find thee words : ;' " These <[uantities may, in actual execution, bo diminished, and the W contractors will be paiil accordingly, but on no account must the $' assumed (luantities be incroase) you know whether before the opening of the tenders it was Arranged before rranged by the engineer or in the De]>art,ment tliat this deduction was Xu"d°dur"io*n* ko be made? — Yes, for I find in a letter addressed to Mr. Pope by Mr. was to b« made. Smellie. in the absence of the Chief Engineer, the following iraf^nipb : — •' The Engineer-in-Chief, before leaving for England at the end of LPtterfromSmei- June, wrote a memorandum instructing me to say that, on the recep- Mij^igter']?*''^''^"^' tion of tenders and on making a statement of their amount, the whole of the item for fencing and half of that for ballasting should be deducted." TRUOEAU 84 ■a,] ^tC*ntrMct no. 48. Hall, the lowest 1359. Does Mr. Hall, tho pordon who maUo8 the lowest tender, I'c tenderer, did not *i _ 4 - o at *" get the conirafL the contract ? — JNo. ^w?'^!?J'r"n,T{o 1360. Why not?— Mr. Hall wrote a letter to the Department statin- '-make tbedepoNit. that he wan not prepared to make the de])odit. 1361. Is that the letter referred to on page 44 of the Blue Book ? — Ym iiavi sent for im- 1362, Can you s.«iy whon he was informed that his war. the lowes' we^e'optK"**''' ^6"^*^'''' «'"'' that he was entitled to the contract?— I can state fro- memory that Mr. Hail was sent for immediately after the tenders Wf,, opened. 1363. Di.1 you see him?— Yes. 18r(4. What took place between you and him in reference to lii. matter? — It was a ^^onoral conversation on his ahility lo execute ih. work. \'U)0. Did you inform him that he would be entitled to the conlrac if he was propartnl to fulfill the conditions? — Yes. 1366. What was thf result of the conversation ? — He wished for time to consider it, and tinallv sent in this letter dated 8th ol Auirust. ;sia!i fif.mMic 1367. Yes; but for the present, 8i)eaking of the conversation, did h: tvm^yiTn.'/'IapIt- iffomi you then that he would be ready if he had time or any otiiei delay or favour granted, or was ilaa unecjui vocal statement that he won., not bo able to fultiil the conditions? — From the first he appeared t- tliink tliit he could not find the capital necessary. 1 v68. Do you know the man yourself?—! never knew him before [ saw hira that day, and 1 have not seen him since. 1369. Did you state to him that he would have to be ready with th'^ deposit at once, or did you name any time within which he must mak. it? — My recollection is thit the conversation never reached the poini of when he would have to make the deposit. Mr. Hall appeared t. doubt whether he could make the deposit at all. 1370. Are you aware that he was informed that he would be oblige; to make the deposit at once? — I am aware that he was informed tha; he would have to make a deposit within a very few days. The word; " at once " used in Mr. Hall's letter must not be understood to me;i!: that I asked him to make the deposit during his first interview. 1371. Did you inform him at what time, or about what time, ht would be required to make that deposit ? — I informed him that he maa, make the deposit within a few days. 1372. Then you think the conversation did reach a point at whiei: the time for making the deposit was mentioned ?— It reached tha: point on my side. 1373. Did you inform him that there was any alteration in the specifications ? — He was informed of that both by myself and bj ili. Smellie. 1374. E'y Mp. Smellie, in your presence ? — No ; not in my presence ■informed Hall of 1375. As to what you know of your own knowledge, you say tba ^here'b^ing^dc-*''^ J^^ informed him that there was an alteration in the specification ?- eductions. informed him that there would probably be no fencing and only om half the ballasting. Witness Inform- ed Hall that he 'must make depo sit within afi w 'Says. tender, ge: nent statin.- 3>)ok ?— Yes F. the lowes' I state fri)i, loiulorH W(>i\ •enoo to ;ir. execute ui: the contrac ished for tiiii LUgUSt. sation, did h or any otlu': that he won.. appeared t him before I ady with llv must mak the poiiii iippeared t; d be oblige'; ntormed tha The word; ood to meat rview. hat time, he that he mui. int at whio'c reached tha; •ation in th; and bj Mi my presence you say tba' 5ificatioa?- nd only ofif 85 TRUDEAiar J376. Do you remember whether you said " probably " or "posi- ely"'?_l do not. 1377. Was any other person present at this conversation besides nrself and Mr. Hall ? — 1 do not recollect. 1 1378. Could you tell about the time of that conversation ? — I have b note of it. It must have been before the date of Mr. llall's letter to ie Department. 1379. Can you not tell more nearly than that ? — Xo. 1380. Do you remember whether at any time before i)ii9 Sth of i.u^u8t you had a conversation wilh Mr. Ryan on the siUiject ;>f thin jnder?— No; I had no conver.-tatioii with Mr. Ryan. fe 1381. Do you know whether Mr. Hall was aware who had made the ^ext lowest tender ? — I do not. I* 1382. That was not alluded to in any way in your conversation ?--l' ■#a.x not. 1383. Did you see this letter from Mr, Hull, of the 8lh of August, t)»ut that time ? — Yes. 1384. Were you surprised to find that he made the reason for with- pawing the necessity for making the deposit at once, and the fact that alteration had been made in the specitiiations ?— 1 do not recollect ^heilier 1 was surprised. I 1385. Did you take any steps to let him know that wme time would i|e given to make the deposit? — Mr. Hall (piite understood that a few ipByn would be given him. 1386. Then, did you understand from this letter that he was giving is reasons for withdrawing in good faith? — I thought so at the time ]d I think so now. 1387. 1 ask if you think that the reasons which he gave were really is reasons — the necessity for making the deposit at onee and the Iteration in the specification ? — I think that his reason was that he ad no capital. 1388. And that he ought not to have made tiie tender ? — Yes. 1383. Did he deposit any security? — Yes. 1390. How much ?— $3,000. l.'iOl. In what shape ? — In the shape of a cheque on u i)uuk. Kallway Con* ■triirtlon— t'Ontrnvt NO(4fi» Had no coiiveiiv- lloi) witli Ilyiin, IIiUl's ,<-!tcr (o I)i'P«rtm!-iit ; hi* rt'iison fur wltli- (trawliifi li'iirliT. TliliikM Hull hntjt no capital and that li(! (uiuht i)i>e to have tcnacied.. Ill' ili'iiosltevf 131)2. Do you know whether his deposit was i"cturned to him? — It Deposu leiuiu.ii.. returned to him. j]393. How much more did the Government agree to pay the next [west tenderer for the same work ? — $46,190. ,1394. And in the face of the fact that the Government were obligeti I pay that extra price and your impression that lie ought not to have lade the tender at all, was the deposit returned to him ? — Yea. .||1395. Have you now before you the report of the opening of these iders? — The report is mislaid, but I will search for it and endeavour procure it hereafter. 11396. On page 46 of this Blue Book it is mentioned in a report by acting Minister of Railways and Canals that Mr. Ha" was notified J4''.l!'ii more tiiaib Hall' leu'lei paid. TRUDEAU 86 ■nllwny Con« ■Iriietloii— Coiilriti'tNu. 1M« Order-iii-i'oiUK'll authorizing ro- .( urn of dfpo.sll to liall. "Work iimler pro- :greHN. No dlNputi' l>e- twoon coiitractor tUKl ilepHrtinent. Not aware whe- ther any list of tenders was made public before con- tract WHS awarcl- Nor of the publl- ^^ation of any list. Work not com- $^eted, Some fault found ^rUh contractor respect! DR the ^)rogress made. uii Moniiay the -tth, and cumo to Oltawa on iho 7th of August, IS;:* do you know how this information was obtained by Mr. Popo ? — M: Popo probably had before him a copy of the telegram seni to Mr. il;i \'.idl. Then you think that a telegram was sent to him /—U, yos. IIJ1I8. Why do you think that? — Because it is my recollection 0: the mattoi'. 1399. Do you remember now whether at the time of the convor>;i tion between you and Mr. Hall, of which you have spoken, you li:i any information that Mr. Ryan was in the city at that time? — I do no; 1400. Was any Ordor-in-Councll passed concerning the return of ! deposit to Hall, and, if so, when was it passed ? — An Order-in-CoiitM dated August 12, lb79, wjw passed. A copy of this Order-in-Council r given at page 46 of the Blue Book. 1401. Was the contract awarded to the next lowest tenderer ? — V.. 1402. Did ho enter into the contract? — Yes. 1403. Is the work under contract now in progress ? — Yes. . 1404. Has there been any dispute between the Depailment and []. contractor as to the quantities or quality of the work ? — Xo. 1405. Is there any other matter within your knowledge connect,., with the letting of this contract which you think would help us in ih en(juiry ? — Nothing occurs to me at this raoment. 1406. Do you know whether any list of any of the tenders rclati;.. to this contract was made public before the contract was awarded - No. 1407. Do you know whether any person outt^ide of the Departine: had any list of the tenders, about that time ? — No. 1408. Do you know whether any list was said to have beon publishe in any newspaper before the contract was awarded ? — I do not recollc: I did not pay much attention. I did not enquire I40t, You were not made aware that any list was said to have bo- published in a newspaper before the contract was awarded? — I do n recollect that I was. 1410. Did you ever afterwards see in any newspaper a list wL! had been published before the contract was awarded ? — I have no ree-j lection of that. 1411. Have you any reason to think that information respecting tt' persons who had tendered for this contract or their prices was give by any person in the Department to any person outside of the Depar ment before the contiact was awarded ? — No ; I have no reason to thiii: so. 1412. By this contract the work was to be all finished by the VM. of August, of this year; has the Department been informed, by te!l graph or otherwise, that it is fully completed ? — The work is not coi^ pleted. 1413. Do you know if it has l)ecn considered in the Department tiiJ he has made proper progress, or is any fault foujid on the subject ?i UgUrit, l*(7' Pono?— M; to Mr. 11 u him y—Oi [•oUection n lie convoiM ken, you Im ? — I do no return of !: Br-in-CoiiiH in-Council leror? — V.- OS. . iient ami ;i go coiineci.-. lelp us in ih iilers rclati;. s awarded - >mo fault has been found and ho ia heini; urged to go on with the )rl<. !l414. Ih the work nuich in arrear or only slightly, do you know? — )e Chief Kngineor is now on the work investigating this question. il415. And you have not sutticient knowledge of it to answer ? — Nut answer definitely. Rallivay Con* Ntriirtloit— C'oiitrnct No. Is. Railway l'i(T«~. Coiitrnt'l iWo. 3U, * 'ontriiclnrH : Whltcti.ail, Rut. .■Ill A Uy!H!. ll4Hi. What is the number of the next contract? — No. 5'.i, 11417. Is that ill Manitoba? — It is for the supply of l()i),<)00 tics in for supply Drtloi. nitoba. 1418. Who are the contractors ? — Whitehead, Kuttan & Ryan. ;ll411>. Has the contract been fultilled? — Ves. 1420. And paid tor? — Not wholly. 1421. Is there any di8])ute between the Department and tlie ion iciors ? — You will obtain that information from the engineers. 1422. Mr. Ruttan, in giving evidence a few days ago, said that ho id received a final certificate of the ties being delivered and had ittled with the sub-contractors upon that basis; that subsequently an jjgineer required the ties to bo re-inspected, and that some were then ^Ued : do you know why the new inspection was considered requisite ? i-I must refer you to the engineers for that information. 142;3. Vou have no report here on the subject ? — No. |l42t. Is there any other contract for construction in Manitoba?— les ; contract 6G. Rnllwa)' Cniia • tructiuit-' Cuiitrat't Nu>ti6% ) Departiuo: -S 1425. With whom?— With Bowie & McXaughton. ConI racloi's : Bowit' A M<'» Nuugliton. oen publish' not recollc: to have bo- d?— I do r V a list wli have no rei espocting tt es was give )f the Depar oason to thin ,v|1426. Was this work let by public competition ? — Yes. •;' 1427. Have you the advertisement asking for tenders ? — Yes ; I now produce it. (Exhibit No. 80.) 4 142J^. Can you now produce the advertisement No. 48 V — Yes ; I l||)w produce it. (Exhibit No. 81.) ,11429. Have you the specifications and bills of works upon which those Kepmi Mhowiug tiders were based ? — Yes ; they are the same as those attached to the weV^J upiTiwi? ntract. ' 1430. Can yoa produce the contract ? — Yes ; but I would rather give ^Jopy. |1431. Have you any report showing when the tenders for their con- »ct were opened and the Jesuit of them ? — Yes ; I now produce it. Exhibit No. 82.) 11432. Was this contract let to the persons who made the lowest ten- Oontraotiet. to L, ^ "Y" lowust ti;tiuiM'er» J1433. Is this contract, with the accompanying papers, correctly )rted in the paper marked 19 S, of 1880, as far as you know ?— Yes. 1434. Then no copy of it will be required. Can you produce this Ider?— Yes; I now produce it. (Exhibit No. 83.) ■HT TRUDEAU 88 ■•llway Vow ■tructloik— ConlracU No*. 48 mid flC* Tender liRHCdon n bchtei- lu-r than NOUN otii Rdwlc A Manglitoii. Mc- Cniitraci Mo. 64i« No dlsjiiitc Snl May. IKHtp, .into Of conlrai't. 1435. Have you tho tender upon which the Uwt, contrnot was awaivli, — Kyan'et? — Yea; 1 now produce It. (Kxhibit No. 84.) 143<). Was this tondor base I upon a Hchedule of prices to apply ; tho oBtimatod works ? — Yos. 1437. And tho moncying out of thoHB priccn and woi'ivs shows iht rolative positions of tho persona who tender? — Yes. 1438. JIas there been any correspondence between any of the olhv persons, itesides those who obtained tho contract, as to the propriety ^ awardin/^ tho contract to Bowie & McNau^^hton — in other words, li:i\v there been any complaints from any of tho persons who made Ih rejecttHi tenders 'f — No. 1430. Is there any correspondence up >n a similar subje?-t in rofereni> to tenders for contract 48, besides that which is roportoil in tho l^liir Hook ? — No; there is no correspondence. 1440. lias any dispute occurre 1, within your knowlodj^o, between iht j (fOvernment and the contractor as to tho work on c jntract 66?— Nn, 1441. What is the date of tho contract?— The 3rd of May, 1880. 1442. Is there any matter connected with the letting of thirj contract! which you think would enlighten us in our enquiry? — No. 1443. Do you know if tho progress is satisfactory up to this time, have you any information on the subject? — The Chief Engitioer is iiojj| on the lino, and there is no report from him yet. 1444. Have you contract No. 23 which you can produce — that : 1 kSil'ton iS: Ward for cross ties ? — No ; we have not got it yet. 1445. Will you produce it as soon as possible and give it to iht| Secretary; wo wish to take it with us to Manitoba? — A copy will prepared. 1446. Can you produce contract 32 A, or a copy of it; it is i.;*! station houses at Sunshine Creek and English River ?— I will produciiM copy of it later. 1447. And also contract No. 26, for the engine house at ForJ William ? — 1 will produce a coj)y. 1448. Have you contract No. 40, for engine house at Selkirk?-! I have tho original here, but I would prefer to give you a copy. 1449. Wo have before asked lor contract 48; have you tha; i-eady now ? — It is not ready yet. 1450. Have you contract 59, for ties on .section 14 ? — I have ib^ original, and will supply a copy. 1451. There was some correspondence in connection with the cocl tract No. 33 (Kavanagh and Upper), have you that ready now] — We are now preparing it. 1452. Have you the correspondence concerning Mr. McLennaii'j inaccuracies in measurements on section 25 ? — It is not ready yet. 1453. There was an additional agreement concerning contract 42, li| which other persons were substituted as contractors ; have you that?- It is being copied. 8y TRUDEAU was awai-'lti Mnllway Ooa» Ntruvtloiw 1454. Thoii there is a report of the engineers, or other ofticorw o]»on- Idc the teiiderH for contract 48, which you Hay has been mihlaicl; have tow found it yet ?- No ; we have not found it. Priiib. HrKiK-h. \4!'t'i. Ih the Pembina Branch now workotl under a leuHO with any- Worked i.y Oov- )nc ; if not, how in it worked ? — It is worked by the (Jovornmont. -y. ^^'■ 1459. Ih there any dispute botwoon tiio (rovornmont and these con- fractorn in respect to that contract ? — The contract is not settled, but it ^8 in a fair way of being Hottied amicably. 14(10. Have you the original, or a «'opy of contract No. 43 to produce ?— I can give you a cojiy. -I have \km Winnipeg, 8th Soptcmbor, 1880. FoiiN SiKTON, Bworn and examined: By llic Chairman: — 14C1. Whore do you live? — In WinnipCj^. 1462. Have you been interested in any contracts on account of the ^ici fie Railway ? — I have, 1103. What was the Hrst contract in which you woi-c interested? — >)ntract No. 1, telegraph construction. 1464. In what way were you interested in that ? —I was contractor, lor one of the contractors. 1465. Who were thej' ? — David Ciluss, Michael Fleming and myself. 1466. What was the name of the firm ? — Sifton, Glass k Co. 1467. Were there only those three persons interested ? — Those arc 111. 1468. Were there only those three interested all the way through the contract? — That is all. In fact I was the only one interested in it Ibowurds the end. 1469. You acquired the interests of the others afterwards? — Yes. 1470. The contract was let after tenders were asked for by public )mpetition ? — Yes. 1471. Were you in Ottawa at the time the tender was put in? — I ras. 1472. Were you there for any length of time upon that occasion? — think about a week. Hll'llt'llOII — Coiili-iMtt So. !• SIFTON. I.Ivos In Wlnui- First confrncl In whifli Ik- w!is lu- lerested, No. 1. Conlraotors : T). Glass. Ml'-liael FlfiiilDj; and wit- no88. Sifton, Olasst Co. style of firiii. Witness the only oni' interested to- wards the end. Was in Ottawa wlien tender was put in. . .f.; ^->i .%.. )iS. .rV IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) ><• ' 1.0 I.I IIIM Ilia m I 4 IIIM 12.2 2£ 1.8 1.25 1.4 !.6 -* 6" — ► Photographic Sciences Corporation ■'^^■\^ I^N^ \\ #^.. -^x o >^^ o^ <^ 1 V % n? 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY 14580 (716) 872-4303 •if MJ &?■ #^. fA % ^^ SIFTON 'JO feleirrnnh Oon- •tniciioii— Contract No. 1. 1-473. Wore you there on the last day for receiving tenders ? — 1 was. Tender fii Flem- , ,„, r i •.• • .1 • . 1 r-. 1 -i ■, -ht . » ^r tm Inn's iiHiid-wiH- 147-i. In whose writing i.s this tender, Exhibit rso. 5 r — Mr. rlemini>M. Int;. Fleming's i)usi- 1475. What was Mr. Fleming's occupation at that time? — He was jiess pursuits. express agent and manager of the telegraph in Sarnia for the Montreal Telegraph Company, and he was carrying on a private bank at the sanio time. 1476. At Sarnia ? — Yes, at Sarnia. 1477. Was he in Ottawa at that time ? — Yes, 1478. And Mr. Glass?— Yes, and Mr. Crlass ; we were all there. 1479. You were all there at the time the tenders were tiually received? — Yes, I think so. \ was, and 1 think we were all there. I could not be very positive, hut my impression is that wo were, because I think we were only in time to make out the tenders. I think thoy were put in just the day befoi".e. 1480. Are we to understand your recollection to bo that the tender was made out upon the last day, or the day before ? — Yes. Fleming, Glass and witness in Ottawa on the last diiy for re- ceiving tenders. 'I'ender inndc out on last day orduv before. The partnerslilp arrangement made before start- ing for Ottawa. Did not flnall.c settle amounts' and time of com- pletion before see- ing Chief Kngi- iii'er. Cliaracter of In- tbrmatlori want- ed from Chief En- gineer. Understootl that the advertise- ment left it op- tional to tender for the whole line. Tend*: r applicable eltlier to whole line or one sec- tion. O'hinks there wan no dlscutision with Fleming on the day the leii- eeii willing to Prices worn stiileil for prnlrloand for woodlaiiil, anij they wcrti ready on terms of con- tract to accept any seetlou. Not jmsitivf If tills was so with tlio British Coi- umhla end. Trirgraph Coa- ■ triictton~ and tinally tixed on. I do not think that we spoke of tenders tliutday, <^»»»>-»ei ao. i. J know we were not stoppinii; together, and I do uoL think I naw him that day until the afternoon. 1 do not remember positively. There vv.:s no discui^rtion any way on that day. 1490. Do you mean the day ou which they were finally received ? — Yes. U'Jl. l>id you consiiler that you would take any one of the sectiooH •at the mileage rate at which you offered to take another aection for ? — No. 1402. What sectionH would you require different prices for ? — The jn'ices were stated. Thei'e was so much for prairie and so much for woodland, and on the terms of our contract we had accept any section. 1493. That was the only distinction you made — so much for \v(jod- Itind and .'•o much for prairie? — I think it was. I have never seen the tender since it was put in, and that is several years ago. 1494. You understood then, if they wished to give you the British Columbia section, the Thunder Bay section, or any other, that the only di.stiiiction you wished to make was so much for woodland and so much lor prairie? — That is my recollection of it, but I cannot speak posi- tively of it. The question with regard to the British Columbia end is that there was some of it very heavily timbered, but I do not remember whether there was anything specified in the tender about that or not.. I have never seen the tender from the time it was put in until to-day. Our idea was to get the whole work, and in the event of not being able to get that to get what we could. That is the way we felt about it. 1495. Look at the tender again and read it through, and then point out any portion of it which you think amounts to a tender for any particular section of it ? — I presume that clause thirteen would be a special offer for that piece ot the line for which we had the contract. 1496. With that exception there is no other offer for any particular section? — 1 do not make out anything else. My remembrance of it i.s that there was nothing else. The reason for that offer was, that that section was considered to be so very much easier built than other por- tions of the line. 1497. Did any one of you three gentlemen take a more active part than the others in negotiating this arrangement with Mr. Fleming or anybody else? — Not up to that point. 1498. You mean up to the time of putting in the tender? — Yes 1499. Were you present the day the tenders were opened in Ottawa? — I was. 1500. Were you at the opening of the tenders yourself? — No. ^ 1501. Were you informed that day of the result ? — No. 1502. How soon after it were you informed of the result? — We all r^eamed tiiat remained over, I think, for two days—the day that the tenders were Xp^e^e"! ui'for- opened and the following day. Then Mr. Fleming paid it would be mation re«aniinK quite uncertain when, and might be some days, before he could give tmct' could be**"' information about the matter, and my two partners went home and xiven. left me there. I remained for about two weeks but I got no further inforraation. Clause l;{ coDstni- able as ait otl'cr for the piece of line awarded. ■ '• f. 8IFTON 92 Telegrapli Oon- atractlon— Ooiitract No. 1. Trudeau, eight •lays after con- tract was opened, said lie had better go home. Bcveral days after final reciilpt of tenders elapsed ere he was told that there were oilier tenderers lower. Both partners present when he asked for In for- mat Ion from Kleinlntf. Fleming t?ave no parrii-ular infor- mation. Character of tim- her to be used as poles. Described In vertlsement. nd- 1503. You mean after the opening of the tenders? — Yes, I got no further information on the subject, and either Mr. Fleming or Mr. Tru- deau, I do not know which, in a conversation that we had, said that I had better go home, it was not very far off and they would let me know ; but there were other parties apparently lower tlian us on the line and no decision had been arrived at. 1504. How long was that after the opening of the tenders ? — I think it was eight or ten days. 1 think 1 said I was there about two weeb altogether. 1505. Do you recollect how long it was after the final receipt of the tenders before they were opened ? — I could not tell anything about that ; I do not know where they were opened. I S'lppose they were opened the next day, but we could not get any information on the subject. 150G. Was it about the next day after the final receipt of the tenders that you were informed that there were other persons lower tha\^ you ? — No, 1 think it was several days. 150*7. How long were you there altogether on that occasion ? — About tAvo weeks, or a little more. 1 was there about two days before the tenders wore put in and the balance of the two weeks after. 1508. You say that you think you stayed about ten days after the tenders were opened ? — Yes. 1509. What time would that leave from the day they were received to the day they were opened ? — I said I took it for granted that they were opened the day after they were received. 1 really do not know when they were opened. 1510. How long was it after the tenders were put in when you were informed by Mr. Trudeau or Mr. Fleming that there were others lower than you? — T do not know. I think it was about the time I said 1 Avont home — several days after. I cannot remember. 1511. At the time that you asked for further information from Mr' Fleming was any one of your partners present? — Yes; 1 think that they were both present. 1512. Did you have more than one interview with Mr. Fleming?— I do not remember having more than one interview. 1513. Where was that interview? — In Mr. Fleming's office. 15U. What was the subject mentioned at that time?— It was just to gather what general information we could before putting in our tender, of what the requirements would be. 1515. Do you remember what information he gave you? — No; 1 think he did not give us any particular information on the subject at all. 1516. Then what did you understand to be the character of the work as specified ? — We understood that such timber as could be got along the line, every place, was to be used for poles. That was understood definitely, and was stated in the contract. 1517. What was stated in the contract would not be information to you at the time of tendering?— No; it was stated in the short advei- 93 SIFTON tisement that was publiahed. I do not know whether there is a copy of it attached to your papers or not. I did have a copy of it at one time, but I do not know whether 1 have it now. 1518. Was the whole character of the work to be of a temporary jjind f — So far as the poles wore concerned it was, but so far as the wire and instruments and clearing of the land were concerned, they were to be complete. The wire and instruments were to be of good material, and the clearing of the land was to be of such a character as to admit of their going on with the building of the railway on it. 1519. What about the erection as well as the material of the poles? —There was nothing stated about the manner of erection. We con- sidered that in that matter we were more interested ourselves than anybody else, as we had to keep the line up. If we did not keep it up we would not get paid tor it. 1520. Do you mean that the mode of securing them would only bo such as would answer your own interest? — No ; but what would answer our interest for five years would answer the interests of the Government or anybody else, and we were supposed to deliver the line over to the Government in good working order. If we had not the poles well secured we could not do that. We understood that they were to be put lip as well as they could be under existing circumstances. The poles would not stand very long. 1521 . Why ? — Because they would rot. 1522. What kind of timber were they ? — In nearly every instance ihey were poplar. I have obtained a few miles of cedar and tairarac polos at considerable extra expense to save the trouble of putting them in again. 1523. How long will poplar last before it rots? — About three years. 1524. Was that a material approved of by the engineer? — The con- tract approved of it ; it said " the material on the line." 1525. Look at the original tender and say upon what day it was finally prepared? — It must have been prepared on the 22nd of July, the date it bears. 1526. Do I understand you to say that that was the day upon which this document was first completed ?— No ; we had this document com- pleted the day before we signed it. 1527. Then you think it was first completed on the 21st of July? — I do. 1528. Why was the date of the 22nd put in ? — Because that was the (lay on which it was handed in. 1529. Was it handed in ?— I think it was. 1530. Why do you think that? — I think it was handed in to Mr. Braun. I am not positive, but I think I handed it to Mr. Braun rayeelf. 1531. Do you remember whether your partners were present? — No, I do not. 1532. Where do you think you handed it to Mr. Braun ?— It would I be in his office if I banded it to him. In all cases when I put in tenders ID Ottawa, I have handed thorn to Mr. Braun. Telegraph Con* •irnrtioH — Contiart No. t. Clmractor of wire and Inslniincnt!). Clearing to bo such as to onabln the roati to bi; Koue ou with. Nothlni? stated about manner of orectlng poles. The oontractorij as much Interest- ed as Government In having poles put up well. '* Poles would noG '-■k- .stand very long Poplar in fjeneral. ,1 '*' Poplnr last three years without rotting. . 1 '• ,'■■. Contract stipulat- ed " mater al on line." ' '■, Tender coinpletecl *"'f: FTON 94 Triegrapli ('Ona Htruction— Contract Mo. 1. Aitemtionsin 1533. Then you think it was on the 21st of July this dociimeDt was figures matie be- first prepared; can you say when the alterations were made in it, in JiandedTn.^" tlie tlgures— or rather the amounts for section 1 ? — They were madi- before it was handed in . 1534. Can you say whether the alterations were made on the 21ist or 22nd ? — I cannot now, but I think 1 will lie able to establish it. 1535. How do you think you can establish it? — By looking over my memoranda, I fancy I can tind out what was done. 1536. You think you have a memorandum showing when the change was arrivet "^ and 22nd July. ort that much from the price i* — JNo. Cause of change in tiaures. ChaiiKG not made in conse Trlegrraph Con- atrnctton— Contract No* 1. Next most expen- sive section, tirltlah Columbia. Next to that the prairie region be- tween Bdnionton and Pelly. Contract 1, tlie leant expensive section. About 'S> per ciMit. cheaper. At time of tender- ing understood, umong witness and his partners, that some sec- tions would be more expensive to maintain than others. "When making original tender understood they were to have re- ceipts of line. Bat tender says nothing about this. 1564. And which would be the next most expensive? — The British Columbia end would be the next. 1565. And which would be next? — The pnilrie region between Edmonton and Pelly. 1566. And the least exponHivo of all would be your section ?— I thought it would. 1567. What rate would the expense of maintaining it bear towards the Edmonton and Pelly section? Would it be 50 per cent. Iosm expensive, or how much ? — I think it would not. The difference would be between 15 and 25 per cent. It is a matter that a person would require to think over some. 1563. At that time you did consider that some sections would be more expensive than others ? — At that time we had con8idercd the matter very fully and figured out what we thought to be correct. 1569. Could you say now pretty nearly what would be the difference lotween the cheapest section — the one you got — and the most expensive section? — What really would be the expense of doing that and what we calculated on at the time would be two different things.' 1570. I want to know what was operating on your minds at that time of the transaction ? — i could not tell you. We considered this the cheapest section, but I could not come near the calculations we made at that time. I do not know that we made any difference with regard to the maintenance of the whole thing, but we thought that would be the easiest section to maintain at that time. 1571. You say you do not remember that there was afterwards a discussion between the Department and Mr. Glass, acting for the firm, as to the amount that ought to be paid for maintenance ? — I do not know anything about that ; I was not there, and I know nothing at all about the discussion. 1572. Do I understand you to say this : that at the time you n^ade your tender it was understood among the partners that some sections would be more expensive to maintain than others ? — Yes. 1573. And if you received only those sections you would require to be paid more for maintaining them ? — I do not know what conclusion we came to with regard to that, for really our idea in the first place was that we would get the whole line. We had no other idea. Then when we were offered one portion of it I objected to taking it at all, because I was eni;aged at that time in other matters. Mr. Glass went down to Ottawa and then wrote back to me, stating what arrangetnenta he had made, and we agreed to go in. 1574. When you made your original tender had it been discussed between you as to whether you should receive any of the profits of the line, or work it at all besides maintaining it ? — We understood that we | were to have the receipts of the line, I think. 1675. At the time you made your original tender ? —I think so, bat | I am not sure now. 1576. If you did so understand it, how was the idea communicated to | you ? — I could not tell you. Does the tender say anything about it? d1 SIFTOM Trirfirnph rou" COHIriif. So. I. 15T7. No; it does not? — I could not g-ivo you an answer on that qiiof^tion. 1 do not remember what our ideas were nt that particular tiino ; 1 do not remember it distinctly. 1578. Do you keep your correspondence about business matters tiled away, or do you destroy them ? — Some of them T keep, and more of them 1 destroy. It' there is anything on this matter that I can refer to 1 will do 80. 1579. For instance, there is the letter of Mr. Glass to you from Otlawa ? — Yes ; ho either telegraphed or wrote to mo from Ottawa, and my impression is that I have that. 1580. I understand that this arrangement as to the taking of the con- tnict was made by Mr. Glass in your absence, and thi;t you and he did not diiscuss the detailsof the final arrangements ; that you left it tohim to act? — Yes. 1581. Then I suppose you had made no estimate about what the i,een ^maiio as' to prctits would amount to if you operated the line as well as maintained would amoluu'u) it? — Xo. ir they operated tlie lino. 1582. You had never made any calculation of that kind? — No. 1583. If you had never made any calculation about what the profits would amount to, how could you consider that to be an element in the transaction on which you would base your figures ? — I do not know that I can answer that question. So far as the first question you ask is concerned, I think the probabilitj'- is that after or before that we had considerable talk about the profits of the lino, but 1 really could not tell which. 1584. There was nothing said about it in your original tender ?- No ; I think there was nothing said about it before that. 1585. At the time you made the tender it was not an element in your They were not an calculations for the contract? — No, it could not; because there was fations for '"con- nothing said about it in the advertisement. '''■'^<'*- 1586. While you were in Ottawa, about tho time of receiving the saw Fieminti, tenders, did you see any person in the Department besides Mr. Fleming ? i'""^^"'" Ai^ra*"!* —Yes ; I saw Mr. Trudeau and Mr. Braun. 1887. Any one else ?— No. 1588. Neither Mr. Mackenzie nor Mr. Buckingham ?— I saw Mr Buckingham frequently on the street. Nothing said about profits la orlKlual tender. Saw Buckingham in tho street, but did not con- verso with him ou the subject of tlio tender. After tenders In, conversed wttli Trudeau only decision would bo arrived at. 1589. Had you any conversation with him on tho subject ? — No ; I had no conversation with anyone on this subject, except Mr. Fleming, until after the tenders were put in, and then the conversation I had was Y'^'^ ^''^ view of ■ii Tijr m 1 1 1 discovering when With Mr. Trudeau and no one else. 1590. Did you converse with him more than once ? —Yes, I went in there every day half-a-dozen times to find out when they were going to decide it, and whether ho had any information about the contract or not, but I did not go there for information of any other kind. That was the place I expected to get the information from. 1591. Do you remember whether you were informed tliat a fortnight, or anything like that, would elapse from the receipt of tho tenders before they were opened ? — I do not remember. 7 SIFTON 98 Telef(rn|ili Cou- nt I'licUou— C«iitin<'l Nil. I. Anii()iin('<>mftiil tliiit tlioy hud Kill •roiilrs'.ct reiifilit'tl witness h(!l'or(! thii itt.luT j)arlners. AskMl for oxfcii- dlon III time, whlcli was Kriiiit- e<4. InTorinaf Ion tbut tcindci- was ac- «'P|)tl'(l COQtCID- iwrani'ou^ Willi ilraun's tele- gram to ssifton it Glass, London. Does not, know who answered the tcU'Ki'am. Consultation of partners before answci- sejit. Awaic tlion liow Jiincli of Hue was 1n(duded in sec- lion 1. 1592. How long do you think you were in Ottuwii at that time .'— i thinlv I was there aliout two weeUs alto^•ethol•. 15it3. And upon being informed that tlioro were other persons lower than you, you went home and dismiHsed the matter from your mind until yon were informed later in the year that your tender would l»o accepted for a portion of the line? — Yes. 1591. Do you romcmbei- whether this communication from the Department waH to you individually, or who it reached tirst ? — I think it reached me. 1595. "VVhero were you living? — In London, 159(). Do you remember the time that was first named for the com- pletion of this contract? — No. 1597. Do you remember tliat you a^^kod for an extension of the time '! — Ye^. 1598. Was it grante.l ?— Ves. 1599. Was it completed within the extended time? — Yes. 1600. Mr. Trudoau has given us a cojjy of a telegram of 6th Octn. ber, 1874, to Sifton H. Niimc ()(■ (irni : HUloii it Wind. i'er.vonnci of lli'in. Docsi rot IVIIICIII- iMT whi'thcr work >>.\ cdMtract 1 1 unci ii «('i'"(ulvorllsf(t for III siiiiii' tUiii'. Ifow Hrm made up. wa» Witness fliii per- son «lio tcnilered. Farwoil not awjiri! (if his tcndi-rlns. Wlicn ho siiw that witnesN had got contract tclo- f^raphed hltn to ask whether ho oould not come In on the work. Harl bt'en over a large portion of the work. And was thus ahl« toformanoplnloa as to prices. -■•> %•■ 1,1 no chaiit;ed ; but witness can give uo particu- lars. MM! SIFTON l-'2 BMflwny Cou- nt riictloii — Contract No'.l' a cii!iii;,'u of line at Bun.sliiiiu C'renk. NciiDtiHiioiiH took place as to tho toriiiH on which thm clianKu Nhoiild beniudc. Taylor engineer for contractor for purt of time. Matter HottIe- posin^r that I'on- truct was correcU Contract No. 14» Poos not know who made lowest tender. Afanagemonl uf this contract principally in witness's han«o. 13» SIFTON 104 tiiianUtios to bo exoouted gri'atly jn excess of estl- lUilfO. Bail way Ton- Btriictlon— OoHtract ff a , 1 4. Considered 10,000 yaids, if I remember rightly, and the actual quantity wa< from 30,000 to 35,000 yards. In loose rock the estimate was about 3,000 yards, and there were o^'er 30,000 yards executed. Then the earth work went 50 percent, over what was estimated. 1693. Did all that excess in the rock work arise from the deviation? of the line? — Yes. 1694. Was it not partly from the alteration of the grade? — I could hardly say whether the grade was changed or not. I could Had out hv referring to the profiles. 1695. Had you an engineer employed on your own behalf? — Yes. 1G96. Did he make plans and profiles of his own, or did ho get copie- from the Government engineers? — He got copies from the Government engineers. 169*7. Who was the engineer you had employed ? — We had three : the first year we had a young man'naraed Henry Hollingshead, from St. Paul who had liad considerable experience on the St. Paul and Pacific. Then we had Mr. Molloy, who had been for a time engaged with the Goverii- ment here. He came Irere in the employ of the Government, but wa> dismissed. After him wo had Mr. Lynch who is now in charge of part of section B for the Government. 1698. Where are the plans and pi-ofiles that you had at that time '?- I do not know where they all are ; I have got some of them. 1699. I understand that you are making a claim against the Govern- ment for something in connection with this particular contract ? — Yes, 1100. What is the nature of the claim, generally, without going into I particulars at present ? — The nature of the claim is, in the first place, | for delays ; and in the next place we claim that on account of the clclay and our men having to go away, that wages were raised and we werol entitled to a charge for the excess in wages that wo had to pay. In tk next place we have a claim for an extra ditch, an immense canal, that was dug some four or five m'les along the road, and the engineers made us wheel the material from that into the centre of the road, some I Excess (iro.sf! from di'viiiiioiis In line. Contr.aetorp had nu engineer em- ployed. Who Ki>1' eopics of plans and profiles fronj Govern- juent engiueor. Contractors mak- ing (dalni oa Gov- ernment. 17ature of claim. 1702. Going Wiis Mr. Glass 1703. Did h( you make the i 1704. Are v( work ?— No ;"}] 1705. Remei about the first ( to mo. I thin I .'»omc other day 170(). Doyoi sagos over sec words from lier n07. I think some idea of th( inlbrmation oft 1708. About OttaAva about tl time the contrac ^^ 1709. Do you that of Wallace ti'uct 13, gettir ^va,s open for us, IVIO. To that the line, you mu ton ; how much " was up to five 105 SiFTOr* Railvvny Cou- atriirtioii — , .„. Contract Ko. 14. cighty-fivo foot, and only allowed us the price of ofi-take drams for it. The engineers hero have recommonded that wo be paid the price of side ditches for it. AV^e claim that wo should liavo not only the price Xjiturc of ciaim. of side ditches but a charge for bringing it the extra distance. Instead of having- to bring it only ton feet, which the ordinary berm of the road calls for, wo had to bring it eighty-five feet. It was not such earth as could bo moved with teams. If it was wo would not have asked anything extra for it, because wo wore obliged to remove earth from borrow-pit« any reasonable distance to the middle of the road-bed, but this had to bo wheeled over bogs and muskegs eighty-five feet from the berm of the road out of the ditch. Then wo were stopped "working at one time in the fall when we were getting ready and had transported some of our supplies on the line; and there were fresh surveys maiie north and south to see if it would not be better to change the road. AVe were obliged, in consequence, to move back our supplies. ITOl. Where was this? — It was thirty miles east of the Julius Mus- Julius mu-;k-c'_'. keg. It was thought to be a great barrier at that time, and they wanted to move the lino, and we were put to the expense of removing our supplies and a small building that wo had put up. Then we hail the road changed very much, and very much to our disadvantage, which I think can be shown by competent men who have examined and seen it. ^ Tel<'K:ra|ili C'oii- Ntnii-tloii — Coiitrnvt No I* 1702. Going back to the telegraph contract, one of your partners ohiss on.' ufjiart was Mr. Glass ? — Yes. ners. 1703. Did he propose to you to enter into the partjiership, or did Not awaro wiu- , ., /I ^ , * , *^ . 1 • Q T II i -J.' flior lie made flr.st you make the nrst overtures to him r — 1 really am not positive. overtures 1704. Are you aware whether he had ever been engaged in any such beeireiv'a-'ejr^fu work? — No ; he never was. any snciVworu. 1705. Eemembering that now, does it lead you to any impressitm ^yitness•sl)llI.^es- abnut the first offer ? — My impression is tlmt he made the projmsition made fl'sioiilr.''''* to me. I think I could answer that questiOTi more fully to-morrow or some other day. 170(). Do you know now the price that you ask for telegraph raes- Tarifr over sec- sages over section 1 ? — Yes ; it is one dollar for a message of ton '^'"" '' words from here to Pelly, and extra, I thinlc it is 7 cts. 1707. I think you said you had a statement by which you could give some idea of the receipts and expenditure? — Yes, I will prepare any inlbrmation of that kind that I can give you. •708. Koilway Coii** • triK'tioii— Coutruct Ao. 14. i7ue. About this contract 14, do you lemembor if you were at -^^.i^, j,^ oitawu Ottawa about the time the contract was awarded? — I was there at the w'leu eomraei time the contract was awarded. ''■"' ''^''"'"^"'• 1709. Do you remember that there was one tender ahead of you, that of Wallace & Co.? — I think I was there in connection with con- tract 13, getting that fixed ), when we were notified that 14 was open for us. 1710. To that dollar that is charged for a message over your part of ''"'Jj'ii^Vtion-""" the line, you must of course add something for the part over to Edmon- contnut .>«. i. ton ; how much is that addition ? — I do not know how much that is. It was up to five dollars at one time. mmmmmmmtmmm «IFTON 106 ■triictloii— Coiitrnct So. 14. Ward with wit- iieiis when con- triiot ibr 11 dosed. Date of contract. Contract!* BfoN. Id au Htructlon— 'ContrMot No, I . 1711. You do not control the sections west of Pelly? — ISTo; I think it ih fi dollar from Peliy to Battleford. In other words, it would be tloublo as much from here to Battleford as from here to Pelly. I think that is the present rate. I have nothing to do with the other hno except settling up with them and receiving their messages. 1712. You say you think you were at Ottawa regarding section 13, and at that time you also negotiated the closing of the contract for section 14 ? — Yes ; I think so. 1713. Was there any other partner there with you ? — Yes ; I think Mr. Ward was there with me. 1714. Why do you think Mr. Ward was with you? — He was there to sign the contract, I think. I think my brother and he were there. 1715. The contract for section 14 is dated the 3rd of April? — They were both there at uhat time. 1716. ])o you remember how you were informed that your tenders on those two sections would be accepted ? — I do not remember how we were informed of 13, but I remember how we were informed of 14. Mr. Trudcau informed me when we were settling about the securities and finishing up about the other contract, or getting it ready, lie said that the House was about being dissolved, and the time that hai been given to somebody else for putting up securities had elapsed, and they wanted the contract closed before the House prorogued. He said : " If the contract is awarded to you, can you put up the security at once ?" I said " Yes, immediately — before night if necessary." He said : '• Well, I will see you again." I called in again. Contract No. 14. 1*717. Tho same day? — I think it was the same day, — it was either the same day or the next morning, and he said the contract had been awarded to us. 1718. That was in 1875 ?-U- Yes. 1719. Did you furnish the security then immediately? — Y''es ; I think it Avas done within tho next day or two before the House rose. I left to come to this country on the 7th of April. Tnideauiniormed 1720. Mr. Trudeau thinks that was a contract awarded by Mr, *^*'"- Mackenzie, and he says that he has no way of knowing how you were informed of it. That is my recollection of his evidence. Your recollection is that it was Mr. Trudeau who informed you? — Yes ; that is my recollection of it. I am pretty clear about that. It is five years ago and I might be mistaken, but I am pretty sure about it, as I recollect the conversation that took place about putting up the security, and that is what brings it to my mind. 1721. He told you that the persons who had made a lower tender had not put up the security ? — He either told me, or it was understood, I cannot exactly say which . 1722. Understood by you ? — Y'^es. Trudeau thatThe 1723. Can you say how you came to that underatanding ? — It must w^^L/*'m.'r''^.'"^ bave been from conversation with Mr. Trudeau, as I had no conversation naa not. put I'P ... i ^i ■!_• >. security. With any person else on the subject. 107 SIFTON Railway fon- atriictlOM — Contract Mo. 14. 1724. \0H say that Ward waa the only partner of yours that was witness's brotiu-r ilown there at that time ? — No ; my brother was there. also in Ottawa at " . tilt) lime. 1725. Do you know E. J. Campbell, of St. Catharines ? — No. 172G. Or Wallace & Co ? — 1 do not know any of them. 1727. Do you know anything about the change of grade at the cast end of section 14 ? — Yes. 1728. Was there a change of grade which increased the quantities Kirect m (nmnti- considcrably there ?— Some places, I think, the quantities were in- l\!^f,ieat oasfti"d creased, and in other places I think they were decreased. I think we had of section 14. better decide that by looking at the profiles. I will get whatever in- formation I can on the subject. 1729. You said you had been over the lino of country generally before the contract was awarded on 14? — The first twenty miles. 1730. Had you been over the country south of that at all ? — Not much ; chaiatMer or • L 1-ii.i i c\ country soutli of just a little east of here. connactii. 1731. How far south ? — About fifteen miles. 1732. That would be just starting from Winnipeg then, and not with a view to railway construction ? — No. 1733. You do not know how that country would compare with the located line for railway construction ? — There is not much difference, only one has timber on it and the other has not, but they are both level. 1734. Do you remember what was the time for the completion of ■ontract 14?— In 1876, I think. 1735. It was not nearly completed then the 1st of August, 187G ?— beincon.ifetedTn . No ; it was not. is^e. it was not ' nearly compleleu in August, 1S7B. 1736. Do you remember when the letting of the next section east of that, namely bection 15, was made ? — I do not remember, but 1 think it was in 1877. 1737. Was there ai^ch of section 14 unfinished in January, 1877 ? — Yes ; considerable of it. 1738. That was six months after the time for its completion ? — Yes. 1739. What was the cause of the delay ? — The first occasion was delay in not having laid out the work in the first place, and when wo came on here the work was not ready. 1740. How much of it had been done? Was the line located on the Line located but ground at all ?— Yes, but there was no work laid out. . "^"^ ^''■'•^ ''^•'* ""•" i»«iTv 1111 ..ml No cross sections 1741. Do you mean that they had not crosa-sectioned it? — There ii»ti no engineers were no cross-sections done, and no engineers here to lay out the work when^th?"'' ^""^^^ when we cap^o. •contrac- tors went on the ground. 1742. How long was it after you came before the work was laid out witness prepared so that you could proceed ?— 1 came here prepared to go on with the work" by" 1st "of work in the latter part of April or the ist May. I had a large number >iay. of men and horses coming into the country. We b/ought our own teams ; and I advertised for men in St. Paul as wo came through, and em- plojcd an agent to hire men and send them on to mo,expcctingthat «very- liiing was ready. We had about sixty teams and 1,200 men, and we kept [them some time. Wo could not pay them, but we boarded them, and we SIFT ON 108 >^'l Bailing rate of wflftos fa i lei I to biiiif; tlR'iri all back. Railivay Coii- MtrlK'tiOll — Contract No.lt. y\on left bocaiiso ^f^'l to pay .^onio of our foremen'.s expenses. After a while the men wont IK) work ready. aw:iy uJi.l reported that there was no work goin_:5 on, and no work ready. The oonsequence was it was impossible to <;"ot men inagaiii tlitii Slimmer. We could have employed any number of men at 81.75 per day then if the work had been ready ; but they all went out of tho country again. We had to raise tho wages to $2 per day to try and bi'ing them back, but oven that did not bring them, for wherever the men went bark to the Uuilod States, all the way to Chicago, it was reported that there was no work going on f-o that laborers were afraiil to come. After that wo had to pa}' verj' high wages to induce Ihem to Continctois in a c'oino ill, and could not get over half the number we wanted. We wcro (lono III" tVi^ work in a p().'-ition to have done all the work thai summer liad it been laid tiiat smniiijir bail Q„L ^,5j. ,j^ . jjnd it was the be-*t season we have had since for work. It be-n laid out. -,,r , ' j. ^ ^ i * xi • i fortboin. Ave made uvery etrort on our part, bitt tho engmeers only came on to lay out the work in June. 1T43. When they come on to lay out tho work were you able to Sroceed then, or did they require to lay it all out befoi'o you began ?— 'o ; they allowed us to commence five miles back from the river. Tho line was locate 1 that five miles but they thought of changing it, con- sequently we had to commence tive miles out from the bose of our wupj»lies. We had to build a ro id to got out our supplies which, after the real location was made, was of no use to us at all, for we could have commenced at the river. jii'unced tobiy tmt 1744. After they commenced to lay out the work at that five mile pi'(KT.de<1' e?il'i- point the}' went eastward and located in an easterly direction ? — Ye^. ■ward. aheac'rof coiitrac- 1 ?'!•'>• Did they keep ahead of your work then, oi' did they impede torsniiiii Decern- you ill anv Way? — They kept ahead of us until tho following Decern- cuity ''arose ^'rc- ber whon that difficulty arose about tho Julius Muskeg. gardlntr Julius ^^i"^'"-- 1746. Is that where they laid the ditch eighty-five feet from tlio roadway ?— Yes ; they gave us notice not, to proceed further east than the Julius Muskeg, and that slopped our work all winter. 1747. How tar was it between tho five mile point from which yoii started and the Julius Muskeg ?— About twenty-tivo miles. 1748. So that this was the only length upon which you were per- mitted to work until about a year after you got the contract ? — Yes; until the time that they located this end. They located the five miles at this end .some time during the latter part of the summer. Twenly-five miles from wliero thc.v started to the .Tullus iMu.vkeu;. Until line at Win- nipeg; end located coutraetor.s not permitted to work on more than this lenjrlh for nearly ii whole year. AI)out. Ausnst poniiitted towork Avestori.v towards the river. 1749. Then they did not permit you to work westerly towa river ? — \"es, they did in the latter part of the year — perhaps in . or somewhere about then. •ds the August ^J;*',PiJ[,V^''Jo'rk n50. Then the j.ortion of tho line that they would not permit you not permitted the to work on was east of the Julius Muskeg— was it ? — Yes. .Julius Muskeg. ° Advuntases which woidd have attended permission to work on the Jullu.'s Mnske^'. 1751. Would it have been any object to you to have been allowed to work east of the Julius Muskeg? — Yes, for the reason that we could have got our supplies over ; and we intended and had made arrangements to have our supplies taken across the muskeg in the winter, as we could not get them through in the summer. It consequently delayed us a whole year. i7o2. Wh^ in the winter' 1753. Wha time ?— The J our supplies c .>;ummer, to bi in our supplie had no notice 1854. Could on the ice at a were running and we did no 1755. How ^ there is a sraal about a mile a 1756. When provisions for shanties to live them ]-eady alo making which 1757. What ^ 1758. And fo work. The pri and we had mei 1759. In geti the line would wanted ? — Two 1760. Could } was to be locate 1761. Do you all that winter ? 1762. If you c line was to be lo tions?— Yos; bu like that is a pre on one side, and 1763. Do you ! not tell within Ves ; and the vei they were unceri 1764. Is your ( supplies by any t0 8top?--Exactl 1765. I believe were to stop youi period, equivalen was delayed by tl 1766. Did you any more. 109 SIFTON it.V2. Why did you wish lo ^^ct. your nupplios over the Jidius Muskej^ in the winter ? — Because wo had plenty of work there that could be done. 1753. What was the object of your getting the sup])lies over at that {^ifi^c? — The Julius Muskeg Wi-H frozen in the winter, and we could got our supplies over without any difficulty. We were obliged, the next .>;ummer, to build a corduroy road eight miles long before we could get in our supplies, for w^e could not commence until the spring because wo had no notice where the line was to bo. 1854. Could you not have got your supplies over the Julius Muskeg on the ice at all events ? — We did not know where to put them. They were running one line to the north and one to the south— trial linos, and we did not know which ono would be adopted. 1755. How wide is this Julius Muskeg? — Four miles across, and then there is a small piece of diy ground, and then another piece of muskeg about a mile and a-half wide. 1756. When you speak of supplies what do you mean ? — We mean provisions for the men and teams principally, as well as proparing shanties to live and work in. We build them in the winter and get ihcm ready along the line every two miles or .so. Then our timber making which we had to get out in the winter was stopped. 1757. What was the timber for? — Bridges. 1758. And for trestle work ? — Yes; tltero was a great deal of trestle work. The principal part of our timber was east of the .Fulius Muskeg, and we had men on that work at that time. 1759. In getting out timber for your work how far north or south of the line would you have to go for it as a rule — to get all that you wanted ? — Two miles, perhaps. Not more than that. 1760. Could you not tell within two or three miles where the line was to be located east of the muskeg ? — No. 1761. Do you mean that you were not able to get out any timber at all that winter ? — No ; we stopped operations at once. 1762. If you could have told within two or three miles whei-e the line was to be located, could you hav« gone on with the timber opera- tions ? — Yob; but the di-awing of timber out ot the way in a wet country like that is a pretty serious matter. They went off two or three miles on one side, and then they abandoned it and struck the other side. 1763. Do you say that the location was so uncertain that you could not tell within two miles where the line was to be finally built? — Yes ; and the very fact of the notice that they gave us would show that they were uncertain as to the point. 1764. Is your evidence that they did not facilitate the getting in of supplies by any qualification of that notice, but that you were just told to stop? — Exactly. 1765. I believe there was a condition in your contract that if thoy were to stop your work at any time you were to have an additional period, equivalent to the delay, in which to complete the contract, if it was delayed by the stoppage ? — Yes. 1766. Did you get that additional time ? — I presume we did, but not any more. haiUtiiy Cuii> slriiftloii — Coiiti-uft No« tl. .TiiUus MuskuK ll'0/.(:ll WUlllll liavf made iigtxxl lirl(J;;i' 111 winter lor nettliiK over supplies. Had to biilfda corduroy road. Wliy under clr- curvistiincos ice bridge on .lull us MuskcK not used. WlHi'r lor the fills. ;{7 ct.s. ii viint. Whltchfiad otrer- eil to do it lor 40 els. Smith said unloss arranKi^ment was iiKVilcwitliWhiti- lu'ad, Govoi-n- iiiunt would liavc! to take contract oiitof ilii'ir liaiKlM. Tills was ill Sep- temlmr, ISTS. A r r a II f?e iii c ii I male with WlUte- head subjccl to approval of (Jov- erntnent at 10 cts. Wliltohead also to do balance of rock. SIFTOM 112 Anllwiiy Toil- Htriictioii— Coiili-nut Silt. H, Contnictors lost by ({Ivlni; llils work to W'lilti- iK'iid. yurds or so to liu tini.sliod in tho cuts, tliat wore roquired to bo put into tho tills, and ho toolc tliiit at oui' jirico. 17'Jl. Was thero any loss or giiin to you by his taking- it from you? — YoH ; there was u loss to us. Tho earth fliiin« 1702. "What did you lose in that particular urran^^omcnt with Mr. wlVrkTheyVma."" Whitehead ?—Wo lost on liis gettiii^^ the work. That was tlio host paying work we had, tho filling of tho earth work. 1703. lie got 40 cts. ; what was your ])rice? — Our price was ar- ranged by tho schedule of prices, according to the distance which ilie oarlh had to bo drawn. Wo had 26 cts. a yard for all earih up to 1,'JOO feet, and extra haul after that. 179-4. At what rate? — I do not i-omembei* without looking at the specification. 1 see by the specification that it wjia one cent \ or cubic yard for every 100 feet over the 1,200. 1795. Who paid tliis extra price between 26 cte. and 40 cts. to Mi'. Wliitehead ?— Tho Governmout. We gave him an order to liavo tlio Government pay him for the work as it was estimated. 1796. As between you and the Government was tlio di tl'orencc belwotMi tho 26 cts. and 40 cts. charged to you ? — No; they do not estiiauie that worli to us at all. 1797. I understand that if you did the work you were to get at least 26 cts. ? — Yes; and an additional cent per yard for haul, and he \v;is to do it for us at 40 cts. without any extra haul. 1798. Do you know which amounted to the larger sum, 40 c'ts. per yard without extra haul, or the 26 cts. per yard with extra luiul? — Our price was tho larger at 2(! cts. per yard and the extra haul. The Gcivcrmiicnt paid Whltclii-ad. t'outrai-lor's price lii>;licr than Whitehead's. The (iovernment. therefore get the work cheaporjanc.' 799. 8o that the Government got this work done, as a whole, at a this is the gro'iind lower price by Whitehead than they would have got it done by voii '!— of one of the v J b J J claims of con- xCS. I'&ot C)I*S 1800, Is that difference one of the items of your claim against the Government ? — Yes. 1801. You say you can furnish the particulars of this claim ?— Yes, No other claim on 1802. Is there any other claim that you have against the Government fertoWhUeViead" o" account of that change of the contract from you to Mr. Whitehead, besides this earth work ? — No. 1803. Tho rock work does not come into the question? — No. When change 1804. When you made this change at the suggestion of Mr. Smith I LV.^\'!,n.llr" voa'i^if.ih" vvas there any understanding as to whether or not the Government in.i; relation of should end the matter with you, or whether it should still be consulci'eu •contractors to ' transferred worl standing of the kind. *''"*''''^*''^*"''* *■" i-k. afterwards between you and the Government? — There was no under- No understand- ing between con- tractors and Whitehead. 1805. Was there any understanding between you and Mr. White- j head? — No understanding whatever. 18 1 6. There wae a document drawn up between you and Mr. White- head ?— Yes. 1807. Have you a copy of it? — I do not think I have, copy of it with the Government. There is a 113 SIFTON 1 1S08. T^ tins a correct copy of that doi'iunont now handed to you '/ — tliiiilc it is riijht, but 1 cannot say without comparing it with iho Hallwmy <''on- Hll'IICtiOII — Coil true I \'o. 14. original. a«r(X)- en ooiit riic-toi's iiuil Whltchctul. work lotter. was not Uoiio by 180!). Will you produce this as a true copy, subject to correction, if''„ltlJi\ i,i,uvt it is not a correct one ? — Ves. (Exhibit No. 85.) 1810. Do you know anything of the grade of the formation level at iho oast end of the line, whether it was higher or lower after Hectiou 15 was lot than it was intended to be when you first took it? — I do not know from recollection, but I can tell by tlie profiles. I ha\ j the two profiles, the lirst and the last. 1811. Bid the Department at any time before this conversation with Mr. Smith complain that you were not linishing the work as fast as you ought to have dome? — Yes. 1812. Wh^D was that? — 1 do not remember now, but I have the date Firstnoiitieduiat of it. 1813. Was it by lotter? — Yes; it was by letter. ' 1814. Can you produce it? — I am not sure that I can produce the letter, as 1 think Mr. Farwcll has it with the other documents, below. 1 can produce the answer wc sent to the Government. 1815. In your answer did you call attention to the delays that in answer men- caused you to be behind?— Yes; and I think that they comrauiiicated ure^iTi%.rwhi«fh those facts to the District Engineer, and asked for his explanations, threw the work and his explanations corroborated what 1 stated in my communication *" ° • 1816. What I mean is this: were you led to understand by the If^KJ" '>«'">vn „,, ,, , li 1 i.. ii Z that (tovyrnnient Silence or action ot the (.Tovornment, after your explanation, that your thought tin-ir conduct wa8 satisfactory?— Yes; I coitainly was. toTy!'^'"' ''"'"""• 1817. Then you did not understand that after the explanation they were still complaining that you were not getting on fast enough ? — No. 1818. Was the time that Mr. Smith came up and threatened to take fu'ruiatao^eml the contract out of your hands the first occasion after your previous i>i«nt •>' oiio<:ouid do and that we were anxious to do it. My brother felt it was a greai **' [object to keep it as he considered it was the means of making some jpiotit out of the contract, which we had not made before. 1821. Did you explain to Mr. Smith that the delays were not your Explained to IX ix J ii "1 -i. *^ ui i i 1 XL 1 i. £. 1 "^ 1 o Marcus Smith llault, and that it was unreasonable to take the work out of your hands? that the deiuvs |-Yes, decidedly, we took that position. J^^^l °"* "'^'"^ 1822. You said that you were not to blame for the delay ? — *^oStion that t h.- [Certainly, we took that position — that we were not to blame for the were not to*biuino Idelay— that the Government had delayed us. f*"" '^^^^y- 1 o m Smith replied 1823. What was his I'eply to that? — ^That he was acting under that he was act- Nructions. *^ ^^ ° , |n«^"der Instruc- 8 '1 . 8IFTON 114 i ■•llwnv t'ilJia ■triictioii— Clontracl Xo. 14. Hail coaimotoiN 1824. Did lio i^jiy Unit 1)0 WJiH jictiii^ undor inHtruclions ? — Uo is a Ko< ''1"»"''h 'I'l'io peculiar iimn. SoinetimoH ho will talk a i^ood doal on nome Hubjo(l>., thc.v vv«)iiiii I'lHvr and .sometimts ho will not nay niiicli. IIo said: " Tho last oxtonsion thereby*''^*'"*'*' ^^^^^^ y"" '"^^0 got IVom tho ( Jovornnicnt is run out now and I miiHt ha\c thiH thin^f done." Ifo was anxious whilo ho was Ihoro that sonu' arrangoinont should bo mado that, would l)o final about lluit ond ot tin; work, and, as I said befoi-o, I think tho reason of that was to got out of ti'ouMo with Whilchoad more than anything else. Had we got half tho time that Mr. Whitehead got to do tho work it would havo boon $150,000 in our pockets. 1825. Do you moan that if your time had boon extended as a favom as long as his time was extended as a favour you would have reaped a much larger ])rotit? — Yes; wo did not ask for time, because we felt, whatever tho opinions of tho engineers on the subject were, that (iiir delays, caused by the (Jovcrnment, were equal to the time that wo toi)k over tho contJ-act. Tho lirst year of tho time we considered as lost Id us by tho work not being ready for us, and when wo were stopped at the Julius Muskeg, that delayed us another year, licing stoppcvl during tho Avinter it prevented us from woi'king the following summor, and we were also stopped on the east end. 182(1. When do you sa}- that that throat of Mr. Smith's was made to you? — It was mado in Septemboi", 1878. t<>di'lay> AInrciis .Smltli's throat mado In S«'i>teiiibni , 18"s. Smith remained nntil nrr!infj:('- inenl withWliltc- lu'iid was con- KUinmaU'il. No undcrstftnd- iMK Willi AJr. Smltliastoolalin. Wording of agree- ment. 18:^7. Did ho i-emaiii up there until you and Mr. Whitehead finally consummated the arrangement? — He diil. 1828. Was it done shortly after this conversation? — Yes; 1 think, perhap.s, a couple of weeks ehipsod, it could not have been more. It was early in So))toml)er. 1829. In round numbers, can you say about tho amount of your claim for this tilling done by Mr. Whitehead? — I have not figured it out. I havo got the amounts and the distances. Perhaps it would bo bettor tc leave it until to-morrow as 1 could not go within a good many thoiisand dollars one way or tho other. 1830. Was there any undei-stariding between you and Mr. Smith, a? to whether, if this arrangement was made, you should have any claiiii against tho Government, or whether your claim should bo ended ?— 1 never had any understanding at the time. 1831. You were not asked in any way to end your rights?— No; not by any means. Mr. Farwoll got up tho agreement after the matter had been talked over. I was out on the line principally ; but after tho arrangement was made ho got up tho agreement and Mr. Eowan and Mr. Smith, I think, had consultations over it, 1832. This agreement between you and Mr. Whitehead contains these words: " Upon the completion of all the other works on contract II " and final settlement made out between the Government and Siftoii, i " Ward & Co., irrespective of the work to be done by the said Josepli " Whitehead, as aforesaid.'" Now that might bear the construction that the Government might settle with you for all the rest of tho contract, and that thy might assume the responsibility of this work being done by Mr. Whitehead without increasing or reducing your work at all?-! I never had any such understanding as that. We had a large amount of I security in the hands of the Government at that time, and some per-f rentage; a/ could bo dui Ivopi Mlive, J k'llS t\ut to ^'«N my urid 183 1. Tl.i.. Air. Farwoll S'liith, I cam 1835. ft n, connected wii iiad it might 1836. At II, loagroo with which you coi Ncction ?— Wo I^^37. Jhity, f*Miall amount. 1838. WJiat thut time. 1839. Did yo (''••'^ Mr. Whitei Nmall force to hij ''7 t'a'-'S. AM w and steam yhov< 1840. Had yo 1841. Mr. Wh 1842. Would the Government item $1,291.50 work to be laid' ( June. The next foreman who wo ^ve had to make ^rst five miles e increase of wage: fe had all their %, but when tl to induce men to ^1843. Thatwa.. les. I 1844. Your con j ine (rovernment ■ not that intended" nnder oi-dinary cii . '845. But was . iftt entered into t| iDe compensated U 115 SIFTON l(H*lt« ny r'oii> atriictlnit - Cuiil.itt I iSn. 14. ront!i{,'o; uiul wo got the final ostiinalo williout vvuking until tlitit wurU coiilil bo cKmio. ]'S'V,i. Was it yon 1' intontion that vvhntovor claim you liail should hi witinws uiidn kopi Mlivo, antrthat thin ai,'roomoiit botweon you arid Mf. Whitohfad ^,' ' '''"'^' ''''^ That iiiii- illcilllil IlllVt'. liUlii I'I'lllllill ALtrcoiiirnt, prc- l»iircil tiv l''iir\vi'll .'lllll WIlllt'lM'lul, 1111(1 siiliiiiiMi'il lo Rowivii or Smith. loiil a vas nt't to end your claim tor tho eastorn portion of tho line? vttM my undoiHtaiidiiif^ of tho wholo thing. 1831. This agicomont you say was pro|iarod hy Mi-. Karwoll ? — Uy Mr. Kai'woll and Mr. VVhilohead, and suhiniltcd to Mr. Jiowun or Mr. Hiuilli, 1 cannot say which. IR-'i*). It was pro|»ni-cJ without any lawyoi- ? — Thoro was no lawyer AKnciiu-nt pr.' cotinccted with it. Wo novor had a lawyer employed on our work, it we |',i\'v'yl,| '^"'' hml it might have been better for us. IH^fi. At the time that Mr. Smith made this threat and induced you to agree with Mr. Whitehead, what amount of {'orce had you on hand which you ccMild have a])plied to this ,»ai'ti(!ular work at tho end of tho Hcction?— Wo could have put all our force on lo that. 18;]7. But you had unfinished work at tho time ? — Yes; but it was a hiaull amount 1838. What force had you at that time ?- thtit time. -Wo had about 500 mon at Contruclors Imil a l'o|-cr ol.'dMI nifll,!!. nimilicT siimdcnt ill WillU'SS's <>|iiiiii>ii to anlHh tho worit. 1830. Did you conwider you had forcoonough then to finish this work iia.i not iniinof thiit Mr. Whitehead afterwards had ?— Yes ; it would have taken a very ulx'v^Zi u'.em. Httiiill force to have done that work ; it would have boon done altogether l»y cars. All wo had to do was to got in the machinery, a train ol'cais and Htoam shovel. 1840. Had you tho train of cars ? — No ; but wo would have got them. 1841. Mr. Whitehead had them on the other contract? — Yo.s. 1842. Would you explain your contention about item No. 1, against Expiiination m- ihe Govern men t ?— Item No. 1 in in reference to tho first part of that Haiin'^T-uinir'*''^ item 81,291.50, expenses of hoarding men while they wore waiting for Uoveruiiiont. work to be laid out when thoy first came on the contract in May and June. The next item in that claim is for wages to the engineer and t'orcman who wore hired by tho month, 0380. The next item was a road we had to make that became useless after tho lino was located, for the first five miles oast from the river, $584.62. Tho next item was the increase of wages to tho mon wo had during the four months following. We had all the mon wo could give work to in the spring at $1.75 per day, but when these men left the country we were obliged to rise wages to induce men to come back. 1843. That was owing to the delay caused by the Government ? — Yes. 1844. Your contract contains a clause that if you wore delayed by ,. , the (iovornmont you shcmld get an extension of the same period ; was ci-ciiinstiiiici's I not that intended to bo a full compensation toi- tho delay ? — It might be rei"H.<'tVn-*! x''<'n- under ordinary circumstances. sionottimowouid ' provhh^ (•oiiipen- 1845. But was it not intended as full compensation at the time that *** ' ' n - . • iTou entered into the contract ; did you understand that the dola}' would |be compensated by a similar extension? — Y'es; but we did not want ah SIFTON 116 Hallway •triiciioji— Coiitrttil Mn. II. But the work was not reudy In the lirbt pltu-i;. "WaKesroHC In coDHe(|ii('n<;(! of action orOovcrn- nieiit. Julius Mu8ki%', Item No. 2 of cliilm. m '■■' Point Involved in thispiirtof ('l)Uni. ■H' any tiling except that extension. We did not want any compensation for dohiys after the work commonced. lH4t!. Then why do you aak 25 cts. a day for the work of the fit-si year ? — Because when wo came on here the work was not ready for us. Wo were not delayed, that Is they did not stop hh ; but they never hiul work ready for uh. 1847. Why should you charge 25 cts. a day increase for the work of the first year ? — In couseciuence of the action of the Government the wages went up. 1H48. What was the action of the Government which caused ilio wages to go up ? — As I said the work was not laid out when wo l.iioiight in the men, and they went back to the United States and i-e- ported that there was no work, and we could not get men back again without raising the price of wages that much higher. 1849. Now if in the following year the country had been full of laborers, and wages had gone down 25 cts. you would not expect to liave to take olf 25 cts. or to give the Government credit for it ? — No. 1^50. And why would you not expect it ? — If through the action of the Government the wages were reduced we would bo very happy to give them credit for it, but under ordinary circumstances we take our own chances. 1851. You think then that the price of wages was raised' in conse- quence of the action, or the inaction of the Government? — Yes; and 1 think Mr. Eowan will bear mo out in it. I felt wery sore on the mattei- at the time, as we knew how it would pinch. I made representations to the (rovernrnent at the time on the suliject. 1852. Then item No. 2 concerns the Julius Muskeg alone ? — Yes. 1853. And that is for making a ditch outside of the railway line ?— Making a ditch ou^^side of the railway line, and bringing the earth in to make liie load-bed with. 1854. Does your contract require you to bring in any earth from tho outside of the lino? — A general clause of our contract is that for hauls of 1,200 feet we shall got nothing extra. 1855. Does that include b'^rrow-plts ? — Yes; but this is not a borrow- pit. 185(). Why was not this a borrow-pit? — Because it was a ditch, and borrow pits are made in places where we can haul the earth with teams, We would not n ake a borrow-pit where we couid not draw with teams for the Government or anybody else. If they got the stuff alongside of the road they sometimes increase the ditch, but they do not increiisie (he berm, and we get it wherever we can wheel it; but this ditch was put there for another purpose. 1857. If this ditch at the distance of eighty-fivo feet could be treated as a borro vv-pit along your contract, then you would have noclaini ?— No. 1858. Then the quosti ati-at't ion- Con trnct Mo. 14. Knrth had to be wheeled an aver- age ot seveuty- tliree feet. Re(iiilrpd to movo m),tm yards from thudUoh. Had to makp tre.sl loH for the plank for tlie barrow.s. '^_^ SIFTON 118 fay C Mtriivtion — Contract No. 14. Work stop])e'^^^^ we had to undo. We had supplies there and we had to bring them back. 1881. That was not work on the line ? — It was work for the line, 1882. Your contract you say has a clause to this ett'ect: that if you are delayed at all after the work has once commenced it shall be duly compensated by giving you a corresponding time in the shape of an extension. Do you understand that to be a condition of your contract? —Yes. Rea.s<>ns wiiy wit- 18SH. When tho Government stopped you in January, 1876, for a as'u)'ftxtl'nVi^on'o(- Particular period, is it not within your contract, according to your time (iocs not opinion, if you get an extension for a similar period afterwards ? — No. covoi 1 hcase. pov instance, we were only stopped there tor four or five months,or some- thing of that kind ; but it prcvciitod us li'om getting material across there, and so stopped us from working the whole of the follow^ing year. Wo had commenced operations, and had out- supplies there, and had to move them back again, and 1 never understood any such thing as that as coming within that clause. 1884. You mean to say tliis : that a stoppage at i ome period of the year would bo more damaging to the contractor than at other periotls in delaying the woi-k ?— 1 think that if by their action they have caused worJc to be done that is of no advantage to the contractor in carrying on the contract, the more fact of getting an extension of time does not repay him, as he only gets the extension of time to enable him to com- plete his contrjict. I do not see that that is compensation for anything by which they have caused an extra expense. 1885. Are there some periods of the year when the delay would bo more damaging to tho contractor than others ? — Yos. Delays during certain periods of the year would be juorc damaging than at other periods. If work stopped during winter BuppUcR unnnot be got In 188G. Which are the most damaging periods of the year for delay to occur in ? — The fall would be the most damaging period with us, because if we are stopped during the winter it prevents us from getting in supplies. Ad fcoon us sleighing comes we get over this wet country easier than any other way. 1887. If in some periods of tlie year delay is more damaging to tbo contractor than others, it must follow that there are some periods in which delay is loss damaging to the contractor than others ? — Yes. 1888, What period would bo the least damaging? — The first throo to^coutnicVor.*' '" months in the spring would be the least damaging to tho contractor, Spring tlie period during wiiicli deoa trestle work. wdrk."^^"' '''■*""'' 1903. Was it decided before you arranged with Mr. Whitehead Bcjoro ^ arvanso- whother they should be filled with trestle work or with earth? — Y'es ; wiiiteheuiiitwas^ Value of wear anil tear of plant, $6,250. Ksti mated valua of loss of worka $15(),iK)0. "' t fiw i—xmmmmtm' SIFTON 120 BnlUvajr Con- HI iivtlou— Coil tract Mo. 14. fllliil with earth. Karth drawn from distant borrow-plts. , It ' dMi'ied tiiat the it wa8 decided they were to be filled with earth, and we had done part voi.is should .{.0 ^f j^ii j.,^g gij^^ 1904. On this mile and a quarter ? — Yes. 1905. Was this only raising the embankments ? — No ; it was the completion of them. There were gaps that wore not filled out— one almost entirely filled and the other two were gaps. 1906. When yon speak of a mile and a quarter, do you mean the, gaps ? — No ; 1 mean the full extent. 1907. So that the actual work would really be upon a much shorter length than u mile and a quarter ? — Yes ; about 1,500 feet. 1908. As I understand you, the earth to fill these gaps was drawn Irom borrow-pits ? — Yes. 1909. But it was at such a distance that the extra haulage made it very high-priced? — Yes; this was the nearest place that the earth could be got. 1910. And it was settled that it was to be filled bj' earth instead df trestle work before you made the change to Whitehead ? — Yes. 1911. Did you make any estimate of the probable value of this work before you consented to change to Whitehead ? — We did. 1912. Did you tell Mr. Smith about the difference in the cost of it under the new arrangement as compared with the previous arrangements with you ? — I do not know that there was anything said about it. 1913. Did you call his attention to the factthat you would lose money by it ? — I do not know whether there was anything said about losing money by it, as I understood we were to get our prices. 1914. Is your claim the difference in the cost between his contract price under the new arrangement and the price you were to be paid under the old contract ?— That is all. 1915. You do not claim for loss of profit at all ? — No ; we claim that Mr. Whitehead is our sub-contractor with the permission of the Government. 1916. And you only ask the Government to pay you what they have saved by letting Mr. Whitehead do the work ? — That is all. 1917. Could you have procured the plant that was necessary to do the work, and finished it as soon as Mr. Whitehead ? — We could have done it much sooner. We had the means to procure the plant immediately and could have done it much quicker, because we had nothing else to attend to, and he had other works. 1918. As a matter of fact, when did he finish that portion of the line? It was on the 13th or 14th of September that you agreed with him?— It was done this last yeai- — 1879. 1919. More than a year afterwards? — Yes. 19?0, So that he could not work over that piece to help him on secticii 15 until last winter? — No. 1921. And you could have finished it sooner if you had been allowed to do so ? — Yes ; v^o dearly understood that we would not be allowed to finish it in the time it was necessary. Nature of claim. 121 SIFTON R nil way Con- Ntritctloii — ,. , . . , .,11 Coiitruct Mo. 14. 1922. In making up the estimate of prices that you sny you will be able to furnish us, you can state the price of the over-haul ? — Yes. 1923. The length of the over-haul did not effect thejirice paid to Mr. Whitehead ?— No. 1924. But you say that notwithstanding that the engineers I'^ve ^]^^^'^[jj^|^»J||^|j-'' "^J'l mentioned the length of the over-haul? — I have got it from the en- oveV-iianimudo „,._ hy (lOVfrnincnt gineeiS. englntM-rs. 1925- Is it from that you make up your claim ? — Yes. 1926. And not from the measurement of any person who measured it in your own interest? — No. 1927. l>o you know how it is that the C4ovornment came to moasui-e the distance of the over-haul ? — No ; it maj' have been because I asked them for the information. All that they would have to do is to look at the profile and make it up from that. 1928. The profile would not tell the length of the ovcr-hnul ? — Yes it would. 1929. You mean the profile of the borrow-pit?— I mean the profile of the borrow-pit in connection with the profile of the line. The two together would show it. I just asked for the information and I got the exact figures. 1930. You did not get them verified ? — Xo ; but if it is necessary I can get it done by an engineer. CARRE. Winnipeg, Thursday, 9th September, 1880. ^snlTA*-^ Henry Carre, C.B., sworn and examined : ' > By the Chairman: — 1931. What was the time of your first connection with the Pacific Workins on oon- Eailway? — I was telegraphed for when 1 was on contract 14 of the cIXniai'RaUwaV, Intercolonial Eaihviy, in the latter end of May, and started the 1st of }or7^*Fu^nllllI'^'^ June, 1871, as near as 1 can remember. 1932. Do you mean telegraphed for to go to Ottawa? — Mr. rieming telegraphed to me asking me to leave the Intercolonial Hailway and join the staff of the Pacific Eailway, as he was unable to procure onough men to take charge of the parties . 1933 . Did you come on then at once ? — I came on at once to Ottawa oot-s to Ottawa, about the Ist of June. '"^"^ ■'""*^' '«'^- 1934. To what place did you go ? — Some time in the middle of .Tune Leaves Ottawa (or I loft Ottawa for Thunder Bay in charge of a party to run a line J,^^7^'|,'\y,.^;;'f,j[;^^^^^ between the height of land and English River, from Ijae des Isles to Lac to run ii iint^ from Seul. There was a plan published on which the lines wore all laid [o'h^^KilsiVHil'en^ down, but I .lost my copy of it in the fire. I ran until the end of Out or provisions September, when I wrote to Thunder Bay to Mr. Eowan, telling him ^y September, that I was out of provisions, and that I would have to leave the 1st of October, if he did not send on more supplies. The provisions did not Returns to Thun- conie, but I kept the work going until the 10th of October, when I o^-u.be^' isTh' backed out and returned to Thunder Bay. On the way we had to patch lip our old canoes, and I got home without dinner for my party. OARRE 122 rv .., - i?! .1! Tliiity-tliree men uiider his chnr!,'!'. Exitloratoi-y Sm-vey— I' arty K. First tnttageci as 1935. In whai capacit}- were you first engaged? — In charge of au pi'minK party," ex])loring party. K party. 1936. What was the distinguishing number or letter of the party ?— I think it wa3 K. 1937. The survey was from Lac des Isles westward ? — Yes. When I arrived at Thunder Bay I received instructions to remain out all winter, but my men deserted. 1938. How many men had you under your cliarge at that time ?— Thirty-three men. 1939. In what capacity wore they employed?— 1 had a transit man, leveller, assistant leveller, rod man, two chain men, and the rest were axe men, packers and canoe men. System of supply. 1940. Do you remember the system that was adopted for supplying the parties at that time ? — Yes. We wrote to Thunder Bay fo'- oiu- provisions and got them sent out on the line. There was a com- missariat officer employetl. Capt. Kobinson was employed at that time. 1941. Was he stationed at Thunder Bay? — No; Mr. Jones was cmploj'ed there. 1942. From what point did you get your supplies ? — From Thunder Bay. 1943. Did you take out enough supplies for a long period, or did you take only a small supply and write for more ? — We started with what was supposed to be a month's provisions, and paddled up the river until we came to Dog Eiver, where we made calculations ourselves, and cume to the conclusion that we would be eaten out of provisions John Fleming to bofore WO arrived at our starting point. John Fleming was to go cast, troeast; witni'ss i t ^ ^ fc> & i west. and 1 was to go west. 1944. Who was John Fleming ? — A brother of Sandford Flemin' Purvey— Pai l.r K. an lOT'J. Wlien you took stocU, for whui tirno did you connidur you had .jipplie.s tor your party? — JuhL oiiough bupplios to land Uh uL tlio start- Not more thii ini,' point— tho two parties. sf^.p"!.'!!*'*' 1980. What time would it have taken to reach tiie starting point? — Three or four days. 1981. So that you had i-eally not more than seven days' ^uppliccs according to your recollection of it now ? — No. 1982. And the HupplieH would, at the end of that time, have become insufHt'iont to go on with ? — Yen ; with only one party 1 only ran five or nix days until 1 was out of provisions. 1983. Was it the end of the third day when the party was divided ami John Fleming gave you all his 8up])lies to add to your own ? — Yes; and then I went on four or five days' travel and four or five days' run- ning the line, and then I was out of provisions. 1984. Were provisions forwarded to you then ?— Capt. Eobinson came through with cue canoe and six or seven Indians and some pro- visions. 19S5. IIow long did that supply last? — I really cannot remember. Unfortunately, 1 lost my accounts in tho woods, and all my papers on contract 15; the papers were burned. 1986. IIow long did you stay out that season ?— I returned about the ?«<^"'""\l?, '■'*'>»?' . , n /-\ , u mu J D tier Bay Idtli Oct., 15(h of October to Thunder Bay. supplies imvinK glvon out. 1987. Did you return to Thunder Bay because there was no more work to be done, or because you had not supplies to go on with ? — It was because I was out of supplies. I had written to say that I would return on a certain day unless the supplies were at a certain point, or unless the mail canoe was sent to say for certain that they would be there. 19S8. Was the work stopped on that particular survey inconsequence work stopped la of the want of supplies ?— Yes ; I backed out then. coascquence. 1989. If supplies had been forwarded would the work have gone on ? —Yes ; it would have continued. 1990. IIow much longer? — I do not think I w»uld have been sitting here today if it had gone on longer. When I got back to Thunder Bay I was told by Mr. Jones, who was the commissariat officer there, that instructions had been sent out to the woods for me to remain out all winter, and supplies had been forwarded. I waited for those instruc- tions to come back. The canoe that had been sent out witli the supplies returned about the 22nd or 23rd of October. They had the greatest trouble to get through and back. 1991. To get through where ? — To the place where they had deposited the provisions for me. The ice was forming fast. 1992. If you had had all the supplies that you required before you '^rov/Jions' would turned back, how long would the work have been proceeded with ? — have nniBheo^" It would have gone straight ahead if I had had provisions. survey about 1st January, W2. 1993. For how long ? — Until I would have finished my survey. 19i)4. When would that have been ?— I think I would have finished [about New Year's. OARRE 12G From tlie mlildk- of October to end of December time lost. Tlie whole tlilrly- tliriie men uikIit pay ilurinj.' tbiit time. Exploratory Mui-vey— Party M. Started at,'nin VM)f). Do you know wheii tluit work WHS tini.shod which you failed d with a new luirt.v accomplish I'or wantof HupplioH ? — I had to start again with a now p.'iiiv having hire new ^^ j^ j^^ j ^^ j^j^.^ ^^^^^ men. Mv owri mon would not go back again. I liad to go out l>y tho JJawson route to Lac dos Mille Lacs, tmd roniuin there until tiie lakes all froze up. Then 1 had to explore a lino throii;^'h from there myf^elf to join my own line, and we had to pack all our pro- visions and everything in. We struck the old lin(! on Christmas I'a-o. It was well on in January before 1 had everything back on the end of the line where 1 had left oft". 1906. T understand yon to say that from about tho middle of Octobor to the end of December the time was lost, and no vvork was done tor want of su[)plies? — Yes; 1 waii returning to Thunder Bayand working my way back during that time. lOMT. If the supplies had been forwarded as required would not that time have been lost ? — No; not a day would have boon I ^t. 1998. Would you have been at work instead of on tho road ? — Yes. 1909. Were these men under pay during that time ? — Certainly. 2000. The whole thirty-three? — Yes; because they were workiiiir their way back to Thunder Bay where I paid them off. Then I had to engage a new party, and there were a few days lost between the time I paid off one party and engaged another. 2001. But with the exception of those few days the time was losi, all the party being under, pay? — It was lost except what tirae tho men were packing in provisions. I was hauling in provisions myself, ami my staff were hauling in provisions on sleds. 200U-. But the surveying was not going on ? — No. When I got back- to tho point where the canoe had left the provisions in tho fall, I foiiml three bags of flour, four bags of pork, two kegs of syrup and souk- othei- litte things, and these would have been the only provisions that I would have had for thirty-three men had I remained. 2002. Do you mean by this that the provisions which they did send in would have been altogether insufKcient ? — There would not have been more than two or thi-ee days provisions. We would have been lost if we had not returned. I verily believe that the whole party would have been starved to death if I liad not returned at the time I did. Tlie lakes were freezing up, and wo would have had to cut our way throuijh the woods and walk out. Pay of the party. 2003. Have you any idea of the daily pay of that party?- I was getting $160 per month myself; the transit man was getting $100: the leveller S 100, the assistant leveller S60, the rod-man 840, the chain men 830 each, and the remainder of the party were getting a dollar a day each. 2004. Do you mean for the whole month, or only the working days ?— The whole month. 2005. For tho time that was lost what would be the expense to the Government ? — The time lost was from the 10th of October to the middle of January, about three months before I got to work again. The expense for that period would be about $3,840. The provisions sent to him would not liave fed the party for more than two or three days . 121 OARRE 200G. Do yoti muUo that as the upproximiite oxpenso of tlio piirty ;vhil(' tlio}' wore not oftbctivo but under pay? — Yes. 2007. ]}o.sidos pi-ovisions? — Tho provisions are not includod in lliat. 200!?. Thoy got this amount in pay and tiieir board in addition? — Yes. 2001), Do you know approximately what tlie men's board cost j.er (lay on that kind of work ? — It would bo very hard lo say on that work, bocauso it costs so much to pack provisions into that country. A man could ordy pack one hundred pounds seven miles a day and return. 2010. Knowing all that you do about the matter, can you give no information about tho i)roi)able cost of tho men's l)oard ? — lOvery day tho co.st increases in pro])ortion to the distance tho provisions iiave to bo ])ackcd in. In somo places where wc can use canot-s, it is much chcajior than where we have to pack supplies on men's backs all tho way. I am not able to answer this question satisfactorily under such circnnistancos. 2011. How long did you work after you commenced again in January? — I worked on until the enti of Februaiy when I got scurvy and some of my men were also laid up. We lay in the woods, however, until the woi'k was finished up to tho end of my section. 2012. When was that?— It was in the middle of March, 1872. I think 1 was two months at work and I returned to Thunder Buy. On my way back I received instructions to remain out and work ahead from the end of my section until I joined Mr. James who had started in somewhere from a bay on Lake of the Woods. He was to run east- ward from Lake of the Woods and I was to run westwai-d from the end of my first survey from Lake Soul to meet him. 2013. Did you go on with that work then ? — I was laid up with scurvy and was being hauled out on a dog train. I was unable to stand ; but I asked my party whether they would turn back with my assistant and continue the work. They objected and I had to bring the party in to Thunder Bay. 2014. Your health prevented you from obeying tho instructions ? — Yes; I was unable to stand then, and was not able to walk until the 1st of May. 2015. When did your engagement ceaso after that work ? — I was still under jiay. 2016. Then what was the next work you did ? — The next year I was sent down on the Bale des Chaleurs to run tho Paspebiac Branch of the Intercolonial Eailway. 2017. What was your next Avork on tho Pacific Eailway ? — In 1S73 1 was sent out on the N?j)igon. 2018. In wliat capacity did you go? — In charge of a surveying party — ii similar party to the one 1 had before. I ran from Red Rock by the north end of Black Sturgeon Lake. 2019. About what time of the year did you begin ? — In June, 1873. 2020. What was the size of your party ? — About the same as the former one. It is the general size of such parties. They vary a little li.«|iloratoi-)- Hiirvf.T — Pnrty H. Sii.Mo (wpoiise iif parly, I'xcliislvc ot'provl.sliili.s. ■ WliPn lie iitfaiii commciictMl, woikcd on until work WHS ilnisli- od to 011(1 of .seo tiou. March, 1K7-J. Whilo roturnlny; to Tluindor Kay I'occlveil iiistriic- tion lo work aht'ad I'rom end of his .sc'il'iii mil il he .struck ,/arn()s, who was i(» rmi castwai'd from Lake of the Woods; Carre to run wosi ward to meet him. Pill forepd, throuKh scurvy, to brlns? Ills parly back to Ttuiadcr Bay. In lH7;j, out on tho Nipigon. In charge of part.N- ; ran from ±ted Kock to nortli end of Black istUfKeon Lake. Began .Inne, 187,3. Party same size as former. OARRE 128 Kx|il»i'utory Wiir»-«-y— KoblDNiiu luiil Itowiiii Hoiit parly HII|>I>lll'H lI'UIll lUid Ktick. Siip|ilU>s(llil not (irrlvL' 111 time. WoiiM not tto out In 1 ST.! without knowing wliat conimlssivrlat ar- ransemonts ha„t lynvtiura of 1H71 wont out. Ill Kat 1 01 uvgo. „Q ,.„mract i.i. 2031). In what (!aj)acity ? — In charge of the location Hurvoy on con- tracts .0 and 14. ,40. Was tliat tho first survey that had boon made there ? — Mr. \V. . Jarvis ha 1 surveyed a line in 1871. He had started from ^orth- EaHi Bay of Lake of tho Woods, and ran through westward to Hod Kivor. The fire which destroyed the Canadian Pacific Railway offices ul Ottawa had dostioyod all record of it. The plan now before you will show the lino run by Jarvis, as near as can be described. It is all from my own topography and from information obtained from block surveys. 2041. What was the size of the party you had charge of at the timo ? —1 think there were over forty men in it. 2042. What work was done under you at that time ? — I made the explorations and preliminary surveys, and loaition or trial location of contract 15 as it is now run, with ono or two slight deviations which shortened t!ie line. Then I ran the preliminaiy survey on cor»tract 14, I'rom Cross Lake to tho eastern boundary of Ikuinitoba. VV'. E. .rarvis had surve.Vrtd tlils lino in IS7I, having .start ctl from north-oaHt hay of Ijakeol thoWcxxIa and run tliruii^h wt'stwarU to iU'd. Ulvor. Carro's party over forty mi'ii. Work done hy Carre at this time: prelimi- nary and locution Kii'veys contr.ict 1.1 , preliminary survey cent riict 11, from CroMS Lake to boundary of Manitoba. 2043. How long wore you engaged in that work?— I commenced in ^-ork^rrom Ju?y, July, and 1 finished in the middle of January following. im, to January', 2044. That bungs you down to January, 1875 ? — Ves. Then my party Puriy sent t.. ^•as sent out to Shoal Lake in Manitoba to run fifty miles easterly tj lioba, to ruii''^"" Join from Shoal Lake to Selkirk. sXTic!'"'^ ^** 2045. What time of the year was that? -That was in January, 1875, Takes sou ndin^s I was afterwards engaged in taking soundings at Selkirk near the Sei^rk.*^'^*"^"' present crossing of Red River. •^ ° While his party 2046. But your party was principally occupied between Shoal Lake iunstituted as he- and Selkirk ?— Yes. between shoai Lake and Selkirk. 2047. What size of a party had you under your conti'ol there ? — The same old party. 2048. How long were you engaged in that work ? — We did not take work finished long. It was only some fifty miles over a prairie country and we ^'^'^'^'^'^y-^**^*'- linished it in the middle of February, 1875. 2049. Then after February, 1875 ? — 1 went down to Ottawa then to to Ottawa to make up the plans. In the meantime I was asked for the plans and ^^^^^ plans, profile of contract 15 ; when I was about ten or fifteen miles west of tihoal Lake — that is when I had got to Ronnie on my trial line on con- tract 14 — I was then asked to come in to Winnipeg and make up tho plans. 2050. Have y'^a omitted anything in connection with your location in December, isri survey of contract 15 that you would like to explain? — Yes; I y„aa asked to send i n a ""** plan andproHio jisked to send in a plan and profile of contract 15, Prom F*dt Portage to J'^'J^^^aTporia e Cross Lake, when I had made about fifteen miles of the trial location to°(>oss^Lake."^* of contract 14. 9 a ■^g^^PTWP— ^■—■HW ■PHiSIH OARRE 130 ■•llivny IiOCR- Uoii— CMitnict Vo>l5. How witnesA mado plan which, Mnt to OttawH, waH the Ixise on which Frank Moborly and party calculated qnantltioa. By plan ahli- to Klvea j«tituteit. exploration ahead, and another paity with a transit man and leveller making the location after them. As soon as the exploration party found a good line the location party camo along and located it. It saved backing up, and I found it more economical. 2075. Did that keep the parties always moving in the same direc- tion ?— Yes. 2076. How long did you continue at that survey ? — 1 finished that I'inished Deem* lino, 1 think, in December, 1875. ^'' ^^^■'' 2077. Was that the line that was adopted finally ?— No. aUopt'ed: ''"""^ 2078. How many men had you in that party? — f cannot remember Had about tifty [ exactly now, but about fifty men. """" '" ^"'' •""■^'' W«Mit l)aok to make another survey on section No. 15, .lune, 1875, /♦ CARRE 132 BallivKy lioemm tlon- Oontract No. 1 5, Cliaracter of work done in summer of 1875. Neither of the two lines Carre ran filially atlopted. At Ottawa until May, 1870. Till' line located by witness in 1874 adopted. Bail'way Coila 8iriiviioii— Coulract!flo>15. Witness, Engl- n(^r In rhnrgo May, 187(i. Contract let January, 1S77. Began to re-locate contract 15. Ile-Io? — Yes. 2090. Your etforts of 1875 did not lead to any new location ?— It led to the former line being located, but no furtlier survey was made on that line. 2091. In May, li,76, you came out as what? — As engineer in ciiarj^'o of construction on contract 15. 2092. Did you come out before or after the contract was let ?— Before the contrt. .t was let. It was not let until some time in Janui y ]STi. 2033. Then what was your work after May, 1876?— I ;iud ibm assistants and I commenced at once to re-locate contract !5 I founi that the old stakes had fallen down, lumber had fallen acrosft, and iho marks we had made on the rocks in the hasty survey were obliterated I knew that a number of slight deviations could be made which woiiU improve the road, so 1 considered it better to at once re-locate the line j and cross-section it. In 1876 I re-located the ^:hole of the contract. 2094. Was that on the line that was finally adopted ? — Yes ; the one , that they are now working on, with a fe' i le deviations. ^i 133 CARRF r.oiiialned In wootls, winter of 1H76-77. Shanty at Lake Deception. Four parties. To each a (juarter of contract a«- siKned tocrosa- sectlon. Th» How fi". Chang. ^: \ e RflTected ua)*ntl- ties may be shown. grades were then established in Ottawa, and when 1 received those grades I found that they had been lowered materially. 1131. Do you mean that having sent down those plans and profiles to enable them to ascertain the quantities, that when you got instructions from Ottawa, you found that they had changed some material part ot' that arrangement ? — Yes. 2138. What was the part that thoy had changed ?— They had loweied grades, and made more rock cuttings and eartli excavation. 2139. Did it affect the earth more than the rock cuttings?— It affected the rock most materially. It was not of much consequence so far as the earth was concerned, because if the earth was not found in the cuttings it was to be got somewhere olse^ 2140. Do you attribute the great difference between the executed quantities and those estimated at the time of the tendering to the chanf^e of grade? — To the change of grade and the change of allignment, which was made afterwards when Mr. Smith went through, and to quantities of rock ordered to be borrowed — some 20,000 or 25,000 yards. 2141. Would your progress estimates show how much difference occurred from these changes? — I do not think so. 2142. Would not a comparison of the quantities executed, with the quantities estimated on the ^rst located line show exactly where the excess waa ? — Certainly. 2143. So it is possible to show just now how far the changes tare affected the quantities? — Yes. 2144. And are there somewhere in the possession of the Department materials for a calculation which will show just where the changes have occurred in all the quantities? — Yes. 2145. Have they ever been ascertained or compared that you know of?— No ; not thoroughly. I know myself a good part of them. 2146. Have you ever furnished that information to the Department? — No ; Mr. Bowan may know something of it, but it has been furnishei to me by my assistants. 2147. Then you have those materials in your custody ? — I had tbera but they were taken out of my hands. 2148. Who has them ? — Mr. Bowan and my assistants have them. 2149. You mean that they are now in control of persons who have taken your place on the line ? — Y'es ; the whole thing ccn be worked out. He cannot tell the quantity of rock until the cuttings are taken out, or whether the cuttings are of rock or of earth. 2150. But you can tell whether the executed quantities on the changed lines exceed the estimated quantities on the proposed line?- Yes. 2151. We are comparing the executed quantities on the actual work with the estimated quantities on the proposed work ? — Yes; but we are certain of the work done in the one case, and in the other it is Oi)ly guess work. 2152. But is it not possible to compare the executed work with the proposed work ? — Yes. 18t OARRE ».y Con Htrnctlon— . . ., , , . , . , . Coutraci Mo, 15^ '?153. So that it IS possible now, at this day oven, to ascertain whether c»rre'.s orisinai the increase in quantities was due to changes in the line, or whether it calculations cut* was due to a miscalculation of quantities in the beginning ? — Certainly ; * ciieckod. and the original calculations made by mo can all bo checked, because the work is all in the offices. They are all kept in the level book. 2154. That only applied to centre levels ? — Yes. 2155. And tbnt can be verified now ? — Yes ; and if there is any error in that it can b( found out, and then the only thing is estimating the percentage in the cuttings of rock. That was the great trouble to estimate in going through the country for the first time, when it was all bush, bogs and moss on the surface. I say this, that if the original estimate, of which I have the figures, had been taken it would be found that I was right ; but the quantities were altered. 2156. Then you have sent in an estimate of the quantites on the lino as now located ? — Yes ; I sent in two since the work commenced. 2157. I think you said that upon your first location some tenders were asked for, but the quantities were so great and the prices so high, that they abandoned that location ?— Yes. 2158. Do you remember whether those tenders were called for upon the bame grade that they were finally asked for ? — No. 2159. Which was the higher grade ? — The present grade is the higher Grades, one. That was the second set of tenders. 2160. I am askicg you, as between the first and third set offenders, which grade waa the highest ? — ^The first set was the lowest grade and the highest quantity of rock ; the third set was the highest grade and the lowest quantity of excavation. 2161. Is it your opinion now that at the time the tenders were insufficient data asked for on the third occasion, id which resulted in a conti-act, that *« e^s^timate quaa- sufficient information had been obtained to ascertain a fair estimate of quantities? — No; you never could tell a contractor that it was an accurate estimate of quantities. 2162. At that time had there been sufficient information ? — No. 2163. How do you consider that it affected persons tendering, the fact of being unable to ascertain accurate or approximately accurate quantities ? — It depends altogether upon the prices. 2164. Would it enable them lo make fair tenders, or would their tenders be speculative ? — It would enable them to give a fair tender as to the comparative cost of each . 2165. .Do you consider that a man can give a fair consistent tender Knowledge of without knowing the comparative quantities of different kinds of work? nuantHksuna —He need not have a very inconsistent tender ; but if he requires to get »*»■ tendering, in an immense quantity of plant, and does get in a large quantity of plant, expecting to have to perform a certain amount of work, and it is afterwards found that he has not got so much of that kind of work, of course he loses by it. :il66. Notwithstanding that possibility, can a man give a fair lender ? —Not for a lump sum contract. i* OARRE 138 ■trucilon— Contract Not 15> Without accurate knowledge ten- Mi> tl«ii— Contract Mo. 15< 2224. Then in forming your estimate as to tho cost of this road did you estimate it higher than you thought it would cost?— I cannot un- dorstand that. 2225. Why did ycu not when you wore malting up your calculation of tho lower line at a two feet hoist, make it up at a four feet hoist ?— Because I made that calculation on my own responsibility. I was never instructed to give that two feet hoist. I did jt because I was certain luit that line was the best, and I was anxious to have it adopted. I handed in my tigures and allowed the Department to make their own deductions from them. 2226. By making your estimate on the two feet hoist did you not withold from them your impression that this south lino might have been cheaper than the north line ? — I said that that was the nest lino. 2227 . But you did not inform them of the low cost of adopting a four feet hoist ? — There were four enormous fills on the south line which swallowed up an immense quantity of earth in the calculations, ami had those lour been trestled or bridged in some way I consider that that would have materially affected the cost of the road. 2228. Is that tho way, then, you would have reduced the cost of the lower grade? — Yes. 2229. How much lower would the four feet hoist basis of calculation make the Cost of the southern line for that forty miles than with the two feet hoisi ? — I could not say without calculating. 2230. A material amount? — It would depend on how it is built. 2231. Have you never estimated, in your mind, as to whether there would be a material difference ? — It would reduce tho earth filling by using viaducts, and when viaducts are a certain height they are cheaper than earth filling. 1 am on oath, and I would not like to make any statement of the difference in cost. It is a thing that can only be based on calculation. wouiKvf ^^^ 2232. At the four feet hoist would it have made any difference in the nodiftbrence In gradients ? — No ; it is an absolute hoist all the way. the gradients. ° ' "^ 2233. And the ruling grade of twentj'-six feet to tho mile going east would have been maiiAained all the same ? — Yes. 2234. Have you the calculation upon which you made that estimated difference of $275,000 at your command ? — Yes ; I have portions of it. I have got the calculation of the quantities in cuts and fills, but I have not got the structures and other portions. I had them all. 2235. Have you materials now at your command which you could give us to show how your calculation was made ? — I have ; but it would take some time. I would want the original plan that 1 put in. It is deposited in the head office at Ottawa. Witness reported 8tronj?ly to Mr. Howan lu favour of the .south linu. 2236. Then you would not be able to give it to us up here ? — No; ii is a thing that would take some time. The calculatiotjs were all made and handed in, and any deductions that were made from tliem were made outside of anything i did. Although it was not in ray province at all, I made certain calculations on certain data that was given to me. I handed in those calculations, and deductions wei-e made from them, but I was not consulted as to the reasonableness of those deductions. I ■ ( SI 143 OARrtE BkllwMy Locu- tion— Contract Wo, 15, leportod, howovor, to Mr. Jiowan, wtrongly in mvour of the south lino, but what ho said to Mr. Fleming I do not know. 2237. Who aswistod you in making the southern lino survov ? — g. u. l. Friiows, (;. K. L. Followos— ho is still on the line at Koewatin— and William Il}aku,g',7u' '" Robinson, who is on contract 42, V^ou remarked that there was a strong nouthern uno desire to know why the quantitioft wore increased heyond the estimates. ''^'*' That is a question that I wish to have thoroughly gone into, so that I may bo oxonoratod from tlie blame of having made false (quantities or errors. CAMPBELL. WiNNiPio, Friday, lOth Soptombor, 1880. contrmi No. -f s. H. M. Campbell, sworn and examined : By the Chairman : — 22?^8. Where do you live?— At Portage la Prairie. fa PrnfrV!*"'^*** ? How long have you lived there ? — Throe years and throo mo 2240. Are you well acquainted with the locality and the business (lone there ? — Yes. 2241. Do you occupy an}' official position tdoro ? — I am wai'den of Warden of the the county, but 1 am not an official in the town. ooimiy. 2242. What county? — The county of Portage la Prairie. 2243. Have you been over much of that part of the country ? — Yes; I have been over the whole of it pretty much, from the Assineboine Rivev to Lake Manitoba in that county, including four ranges: 5, 6, 7 and 8. 2244. What is the extent of that country oast and west? — Twenty- Kxteut of county, tour miles — four ranges of six miles to the range. 2245. And north and south between the limits you describe from Lake Manitoba to the Assineboine Eiver ? — It would average, I think, about twelve miles. The lake comes in in some places, and the river is crooked also. 2246. About what is the population of Portage la Prairie village now?— We have not taken any census, but we generally calculate it at nearly one thousand. 2247. Is the farming country about it pretty well settled { — Yes ; j very well settled. 2248. Have you any idea ofthe population of the county ? — I could [not tell you the population of the county, but I can tell you the assess- Iment. 2249. What is the assessment ? — It is about two and a-quarter [millions of dollars. 2250. Do you know what the assessment of the village is? — I do not Iknow. 2251. Where did you come from before you settled at the Portage ? -I came from the county of East York, within fourteen miles of i'oronto. 1. 4 CAMPBELL 144 Kailwny Loca- tion— CoutrnctNo. 48* County ciuMScd by (list hundic-d miles west of WliinlpcK. I'lan hIiowk a de- flection of Mno fotlie south as It appr()a<'ho8 Port- atje la Fralrle. Tlie iiiore the lino dcJlccts to viilatfc ilii- better. 'f tlieydedccted fiirlhei I'ast It would he brought nearer Mie village 2252. Did you reaide there long ? — All my life. 2253. Then 1 suppose you are well acquainted with the effect of railwjiy.s on settlement and business ? — Yes. 225 i. Do yon know whether the location of the railway in iho vicinity of Portage la Prairie has been finally settled? — I do not know. 2255. Is there any work being done upon the railway near there ?— No. 225G. Not through that county ?— No. 2257. That county is crossed by what is known as the first hundreil miles west of Winnipeg, over Ryan's contract ? — Yes; the plan wliich wo have of the probable location shows a deflection of the line lowurds the south i\H it approaches Portage la Prairie. 2258. Have you any itlea how that, deflection would aft'ect the pros- perity of the village ? — Of course the more it would deflect towfirds the village the better efi'ect ih would produce. After it comes just opposite the village by the town lino, between ranges 6 and 7, it then deflects to the south about a mile and a-half. If it were to make that deflection before it comes that far it would be an advantage to ihc town, it begins to deflect at the town line ; if it made that dcflcclioii further east, so that the most southern point would bo at the town lino, it would be a great bouofit to the village. 225!>. Do you mean that that would bring the railway wiliiin i shorter distance of the village ?— Yes ; a mile and a-I>aif nearer. 22G0. Is there anything in the country there which would m.'ik(>an earlier deflection less advantageous to the government ?- I do not think so. 22G1. Vou think it could be done further east than where it is siil to be done ? — 1 think so, and I have travelled that country, 22G2. Do you mean that is a benefit to the town to bo dellected cvoii as far south as it is now without goin;; any further south ?— Tliiu deflection of a mile and a-half is made just after the Hue passes a |ioiiit directly oppoeila the village, to the west. 2L''63. Supposing that this curve were made furl bur oast and wont no further south than it is at present supposed t.o be, would that help the vil'nge? — [ think it would. It would not go as far fsouth as wo would like it, but it would be a little help, in our estimation. 22G4. Do you think that that curve would bo more advantageous h)\ the village than if the road kept on in a straight line V — If it mado tlu' I curve it would be of more advantage to the village. 22G5. Although going no further south than township 13?— It is ai township 13 now, and then this curve goes still south into 12 22C6. How far does it go it to 12? — I think it is a mile and a half: 1 am not certain. ne2S'he'v"iMa«o 2267. How Dcar does that come to the village?— At the town lineitl jit liny Kivcn is just six miles north of the village. Then it diverges south about jI miieH. ""'" railo and a-half- still going west of the village, so that I am r*' prepared than six u 2263. I to the villi that ?— I ( abalf is ai 2269. Bi an advanta 2270. 1 1 your ovide directly we than itha» to build a b the branch 2271. Th( the village i 2272. Wh by having tl modato more (own, becaus west, which 1 another thin/ <'Oiild utilize railway. 2i73. Did to-day, to say f'dUijino diro' '^'Jii'' than it for lis if the r yf I'-otting a r^ --'71. Vou your evidence ,1,'oos south of — lO. You i'oiiveivsii)g yyj -'-'V5. V„„ J, ^ii«i 1 t'lillk V '_'^ 'lio better, j I'lie countiy^'nl t'liclvly popula ■ It. n ■«»' -'ion, ■'"leroad we '''''e^ti<^n rathe, , "-'78. Is ther •X'lUion of thi.s ''OHatistiod if ;v '"n't-that is f( town line beiv •''•''alfof-thatso ^omo two miles 10 145 CAMPBELL tlon— Coutractaro, «8« iiropared to say that it is any nearer the village at any given point than six miles. 2263. Do I understand you to say that if the railway goes no nearer to the village than it is now it is an advantage to have it as near as that ? — I do not Know that the soutLorn divergence ot a mile and ahalf is any benefit to us. 2269. But, supposing it diverged further south ? — Then it would be a more southerly , i. i divergence would ar advantage to us. b« an advaDtag« 2270. I understood you to say, in a conversation before you gave Prairio. vour evidence, that it would be better that this line should continue directly west, or north-west, unless it approached nearer to the village than it hai» yet been proposed to bring it ; is that right ? — We propose to build a branch, and the shorter the distance we would have to build the branch the more advantageous it would be for us. 2271. Then it is an advantage to have it come within six miles of the village rathe** than have it go further north ? — Yes. 2272. What advantage do you think would be gained for the railway Advantageous to by having the load still nearer the village? — 1 think it would accom- beb^ou^rlJ^Tnea'Tcr modate more of the faiming community as well as the people of the the viiiuiits town, because there is a great country lying to the south and south- west which has no other outlet only to come in that direction. And nnciher thing: those to the west and south-west for a certain distance voiild utilize the Assinoboine River to that point and then tranship by railway. 2i73. Did I understand you, before you began to give your evidence to-day, to say thai it would bo better for the village that the load should (onliiiue directly Wvwt, and not go south at all unless it went further soul' than it docs at present?— We had an idea that it would bo U iter for us if the road went altogether north ; then we would have a cli.'inco >A iretting a road of our own. 2271. You had that idea; have you got it noAv while j'ou arc giving your evidence^ — If the road went north of the lake ; but us long as it i^ocs south of the lake the nearer it comes to us the better. 22T5. You have ^lot the same idea now that you had when you wore conversing with me ? — No. 2276. You have changed your opinion since that conversation ? — Ves; 1 think when it goes south of the lake the nearer it comes to lis the heiter, and the inoie people in that locality it will accommodate. Tlie country 'along the southern part there, on the Assineboino, is more thiclvly j)0pulatcd than it is out towards the lake. 2277. Then, in your opinion, it would be noadvantage to the village if the road were continued due west or wont in a north-westerly (liroclicn rather than where it goes now ? — No. 2278. Is there anything further that you wish to say as to the location of this part of the lino ? — All that I would say is, we would lio satisfied if we could got the road to what is termed the two miles limit— that is four miles south of the point which it now passes at the town line between ranges 6 and 7. They have come a mile und uhalf of that south after they passed west of us. If they would only come two miles and a-half further south wo would be satisfied, and it 10 • 7 » ,. » CAMPBELL 146 Ballway I tloii. Couiract Ko. 48. EtiKiiioerlng commercial and re- woulti accojumodalo the great bulk of the settlers along through thai diBtrict. 2279. Then your suggestion is that they should add five miles to the suits of *takinK length of their railway — two and a-half miles to get down and two and Hue further Bouih a-half miles to get back? — I beg your pardon, it will not lengthen their line that much. When the deputation ot us met Mr. Murdoch the engineer some months ago when he was surveying the road, he said it would only lengthen the road a mile and a-half by striking to the south a greater distance to the east and making a curve. They have come a mile and a-half further south already than they supposed at that time, consequently the additional length of the road now would not be a mile and a-half 2280. But you want them to go still further south ? — Yes ; we want them to come still further south than they are at present. When we asked Mr. Murdoch to come south to the village at first, he said it would ojily lengthen the road a mile and ahalf Now the road is a mile and a-hail further south than they expected at that time. 2281. And you wish them to come further south? — We do. 2282. Then will they not have to got back again ? — Yes. 2283. And will not that lengthen the line? — Yes ; but it will bo on a long curve, and although wo want them to come two miles and a-hah' further south it does not follow that it would lengthen the road five miles. 2284. How much do you suppose it would lengthen it? — I do not suppose it would lengthen it more than a mile. 22^5. Is it a detriment to the village to bring it as far south as they have brought it now rather than continue on a straight line to the west ? — No. 2286. I understood from your conversation that it was more cietii- mental to the village to deflect as far south as they have than to carry it directly west or north-west, because you said it would, perhaps, lead to the starting of a rival village within a short distance of the Portage, and if there was to be a rival village it would bo better further otf; have you changed your opinion on that ?— I never feared a rival village; but that was my opinion. 2287. You remember having urged that before us as a reason for being called to give evidence to-day ? — Yes. 2288. Is there anything further that you wish to say upon this matter? — 1 think not. MclLVAINE; lilvcB at Portage la I'ralrle. Samuel McIlvaine, sworn, and examined : By the Chairman : — 2289. Where do you live ?— At Portage la Prairie. 2290. How long have you lived there?— Since the spring of 1878. 2291. Where did you live before that? — In the town of Meatord, county of Grey, Ontario. 2292. How long had you lived there?— Two years, and formerly in I the town of Orillia, and then in the county of Huion. 147 MclLVAlNE ■niUvay IiOf.a» tloii— 2293. Have you noticocl the ett'ect of the building of railways upon c»"t«"»t» »f»' **- different localities such as villages and towns ? — I have. 2294. Do you occupy any official position in Portage la Prairie? — No; nothing except school trustee. 2295. Are you a property holder V — Yes. 2296. A largo property ? — T have between three and four acres in the village, a dwelling h"U!.iiivey of the southerly line was completed. 2324. Then that sonthevly line of yours could never have been adopted without abandoning some of the work done on 14? — Yes ; I stated so in my evidence before the Senate Committee. 2325. Have you any idea of how much work had been ilone upon thot portion ot the lino, which could be replaced by this southerly line? —1 could not state. 1 heard rumours, but it is so long ago that I cannot he certain. 23i6. Have you any opinion whether that southerly line was avail- able to the Government at the time you located it? — 1 think it was. The actual work that I did came into the end of the work that had been done. I ran to the end of the location on J 4. My line joined in with the end of the h)csition on 14 — the easterly portion, which was then chopped out clear and located. 2327. Have you any idea how much of 14 then done would have had :o be abandoned to make your southerly line available ?— I remember hearing that there was about 860,000 or 865,000 worth of work that would have to be abandoned if the best line had been adopted. The southerly line could not have been adopted without abandon- ing some work done on section U. 2328. In order to save the $275,000 you spoke of yesterday the Gov- ernment would have lost 8()5,000?— Yes. Had heard that about iM.iRKi worth of work would have had to be abandoned. Thus, to save $'27S,U0ll, (lovern- ment would have had to lose pit CARRE 150 Rail way £iOc-n> tloii— Contrarta Nox. l«an<115. Net saving a little over *20(i,00(), takinK It that the roitiainder of the Hue would be t'n 14 is from Bog Kiver ? — I have iiiUit in this way : from Rat Portage to that point, two miles oast of Bog River by the present line, 15 and 14 are tive miles, or would have been tive and a-half miles shorter than the t^outh line between these ■*aine points. 2342. Of that five miles jou have already estimated over three ^jleg?— Yes, throe and a-half miles. 234'{. Are you able to say whether there would have been any gain ,'it ail to tlie Government by adopting that southerl}' line from Rat Portage to two miles east of Bog River ? — I have never made an estimate of that portion between the forty-mile station on the south line and Bog River. 2344. Hav^e you been over that country ?— No; I have not been on tiiat piece myself. My party ran that lino while I was exploring the Ualie;* line. 2345 Then you have no information that would enable you to judge whether the southerly line as a whole would be better for the Govern- ment than the present line ? — I have no estimate. 1 only speak of the southerly line for contract 15 as against the present line for contract 15 ; but the general character of the country I consider better — it was found to be better. 2346 How do you consider it to be better ? — The plans and profiles i.how it to be better. 2347. Have they shown it to you to be better — have you looked at them ? — Yes ; I consider it to be better from what 1 saw and heaixl from those parties. 2348. Have you any information which would enable y^u to say hvhether the ))robability is that that line would have bee better for the Government than the one that has been adopted ? — I cannot speak I personally. 2349. Who was it saw those plans ? — T saw them myself, but T have Inot made any e.stimate on them. I consider from the plans that it was la better line, but I was not over_the ground and thei-etore I could not [fwear to it. 2350. What if the plans are correct ? — Then I consider it is better — |tbat it went through a better country. 2351. Better in what respect? — Less swamp; it would save all the i>»s swamp on vor'i on the Julius Muskeg by going south of it. There have been so '°"'^^*'''"'y """* aany lines run that it is impossible to make a description of it that »ould bo intelligible without a plan. 2352. Then the Julius Muskeg would not have been escaped by the Bule piece which you did run ? — No. 2353. Were you ever over that country through which you say you kroposed this line to Whitemouth River, which would have saved the Julius Muskeg ?— No. Plant* and profiles Mhow that the Houtherly line would have pasHed th-ough a better country. OARRE 152 ■•ilway IificK- tlon— Contrncta Nos. 14 and 15. Data for tal8 opinion that a KoutJierly line ■would be cheaper. Cross Lake. A cheaper line could have beon had from Falcon Lake to Red lUver. 2354. How do you get your opinion, when you say it would be cheaper ? — From the plans and the reports of the men who run the line. On this south line there was one portion that was never estimated, that is the mile and a-quarter to Cross Lake — the heavioi- portion of 14 which Mr. Whitehead built. That ought to have been placed against an equal distance on 15 and 14, until yon get out of the rough country, and then it would have made it more difficult still. 2355. You are speaking now of a portion of section 14 ? — Yes. 2356. That portion which is so expensive in consequence of the till at Cross Lake ? — Yes. 2357. Cross Lake is partly on 14 and partly on 15 ? — Yes; it is a bay of Cross Lake which has cost such an immense sura above the eetiniute. Take forty miles of 15 from Rat Portage of the present line, and forty miles on my south line, and estimate one againat the other, and then I say that there would be a mucli greater difference and the country would have been easier, or as easy. 2358. Your estimate on the southerly line was for forty miles which ended somewhere about the west end of Falcon Lake ?— Yes ; and the other has thirty-seven and a-half miles on the present line of 15, but it did not take you out of the difficulties. 2359. Are you able to say whether, from the west end of Falcon Lake to Rod River a cheaper line could have been run than from the end of the forty miles west of Rat Portage to Red River?— I consider, from all I have heard and seen of the plans, that it would have been cheaper. 2360. How much cheaper ? — I could not say without estimate. Or at least as cheap. The f'onntry would thus have the suvliiK on tho south, line t'oii- tract 15, more than )|27,'),000. making an 2361. Could you give anything like a round number? — No; I would say at any rate it could have been done as cheaply, without any doubt, as the present line. 2362. Would that have been of any advantage to the Government to have it built only as cheaply ? — Yes ; because then the whole advantage would have been in favour of the contractors. If contract 14 was built as cheaply, then we would have gained the whole advantage of my calculation on the south line in 15. 2363. And what would that amount to ?— $£75,000. I ccnsidor it more than that. 8275,000 it showed by my calculations of forty miles) against thirty-seven and a-half, but had forty miles on the present line been estimated as against forty miles on the southerly line the difference would have been greater. 2364. Should not the cost of the three miles on the eas^t end of 14 be added to that saving ? If you saved 8275,000 upon comparing the thirty- seven miles of 15, against forty miles on the southern line, which took 3-0U as far west as Falcon Lake, then that saving of 8275,000 would be in- creased, would it not, by the actual cost from the end of the thirty seven miles to the west end of 15, to the point forty miles west of Eat Portage? — Forty miles on this line only Drought me to the lame degree of longitude as thirty-seven on the present line, so that there would be an equal distance from there to Red River. 153 OARRE Ballwajr Loc>» -1 /. Ill' Contracts Nos« 2365. Then why did you say that forty miles of your nouthorly hne I4»iui 15> ought to be compared wilh forty miles of the present line? — Because it is the rough portion oi the country on one lino compared with the rough portion of the country on the other line. 2366. Would the westerly end of that forty miles upon the adopted line leave the Government at a point from which they could make as cheap a line to Rod River, as from the westerly end of the forty miles of your southerly lino ? — I think the present line would be more expensive, from all 1 have seen and heard of the plans. It is through a worse country, from what I have seen of the block surveys and reports of the ongineers. 2367. But you have not been able to make a comparative estimate ? witness did not —No; I have never made an estimate, but there is plenty of data in iVve estiimue!*'*' t lie office to make an estimate from. I would not like to give any- thing more than my private opinion, until 1 had made an estimate. 2368. Taking Rat Portage and Winnipeg as objective points on the south line shorter line of railway, would the south line in your opinion be shorter, and gjvp/®"*'''^***'"' loss expensive, than the present line ? — The south lino would certainly be shorter. 2369. And less expensive ? — Yes. 2370. By how much ? — It would be very hai-d to say, as thero was no survey made. You can see by the plan that it would be shorter. The south line went more directly for Winnipeg. 2371. Now as to section 15, 1 wish to ask again, did you take any Ran vay cou- part in making up the cjnantities which were submitted to the public coiitract*Mo!i5. when lenders were asked for? — I did. 2372. What part did you take?— I was given instructions to take Wh^^ tenders^ out the quantities from the profile, the centre heights given on the section i5, witness profile, by tables which were provided for me. I usetl our t-entro ukeout^tbe^^'^ ^^ Leiijhts, and estimated from those tables. quantitieHirom ° ' the profile, &c. 2373. Where were you at that time? — I was in Ottawa. 2374. Who had prepared those profiles ? — I had, with my assistants. 2375. Then it was from your own profiles and the tables that wore Quantities oaicu- . 1 ^1 '' ^- ■ 1 •■ 1 i . II- 1 lated from his i:iven to you, that the quantities submitted to the public were calcu- own protiies ami i„ff,i ? It WT! ^''"^ standard pro- lautl r — 11 was.. I IVhslonal tables. 2376. When you speak of tables what do you mean ?— Tables calcu- lated which give the number of cubic yards in a hundred toot length, for every height of bank. 2377. Were these printed tables ? — Yes. 2378. In general use in your profession ?— Yes. 237.'*. Are they standard tables for such calculations in the pro- tes.sion ? — Yes. 2380. And by using those standard tables and jour profiles, thos^o quantities were arrived at which were submitted to the public? — Yes. 2381. The profiles giving only the centre line, would not, I suppose* enable you to ascertain the quantities accurately? — No; they would not. OARRE 154 Mtriiction— ContrRct Wo. l.f . 'Cross- sec lloiiH necessary to t)ie a<'ciirate calcula- tiuiiof (luai)tltles. Quantities ealfu- lated from croiis- s('etlous,.Iaiiuary, 1H7«. Prior to tlii« cal- culatloa );rniles lowered tm an nveragp two feet. Increase In rock cuttings in con- sequence of the lowering of tlie grades, 113,200 yards at |2.7') per yard. 300,000 yards of rocli In accepted tenders. 2382. Wliy aro crotiis-soctionH nccossmy to make it more accurate ? — Because of the irregularities of the ground. 2383. But if the ground wore perfectly level all the way through, I suppoHO the centre level would be sutHjient? — Yo.s; it would give tlio correct quantities. 238-i. Then the cross-sections were necessary because the wurfaru of the ground was not level ? — Ves. 2385. Do you know whether, after tho-»e cross-sections were takon, any calculation was made then of the quantities that would be requiroil to be done on the work ? — Yes; I made a calcula'.ion from tiie ero,s.s- sections in January, 1878. 238G. How do the quantities so ai-cortained compare with the quan- tities which had been ascertained botbro from the centre line? — Thc-^o weio largely in excess, but in the nieanlimo the grades h.id been lowered, which increased the quantities. 2387. Then the cross-sectioning alone did not increase the quantities, as far as you know? Is that what you mean — that the increase wan due to something else than the cross-sectioning ? — There was no calcii- lation made on the same line, with the same grades, by cross-section ■>, because the grade had been changed in the meantime. 2388. In what way had it been changed? — It had been lowered. 2389. Had it been lowered an average depth over the lines or onlv i/i places?— I would say it was an average of two foot, in some places it was identical with the old line ; in other places it was lower. 2390. But the general result was an average of two feet ? — I should call it so. 2391. Do I understand that the location had been changed in somo places, before this cross-sectioning calculation, as well as the lowering ofthegrade? — There were two calculations : the first when it had been changed in on© or two places. 2392. The location ?— Ye^. 2393. Did that materially aftect the quantities? — It was a great improvement. 2394. That is a lessening of the quantities? — It was a lessening of the embankment, but it was a slight increase of the rock — scarcely any increase of the rock, because it made a reduction in other places. 2395. Have you any opinion as to the increased cost of rock cuttinsja by this lowering of the grade upon the whole of section 15?— Wo made a rough estimate, and found it to be 113,200 yards. 2396. Do you remember what the approximate estimate was in the tenders for solid rock ? — 300,000 yards of rock in the accepted tenders. 2397. Then that lowering of the grade increased the actual co.st of the road, as far as rock is concerned, by that quantity — 113,200 yards at $2.75 per yard ? — It increased the excavation by that, as far as the rock is concerned. 155 CARRE RAllway f;oii> • trii<>tloii— _ 1 I I I I . n . . . i , Coiitmct No. 18* 231*8. Do you know whother the lowering of the grade incroasou the loose rock excavation ? — It increased all excavafion in the cuttings, 231t9. Did it happen that there was any loose rock to be excavated ? —Yes; it certainly increased the loose rock. 2400. Do you know how much ? — No. 2401. Did it increase the earth excavation? — Yes. 2402. J)o you know by how much, in round numbers? — There was Eaitii ox.^avation „iie calculation of Mr. Kowan's—l think il was 224,000 yards. 1 do |^"i■^'i'^yu!•,u iiol kuow how he arrived at it. 2403. Did you ever make any calculation of it yourself? — I have the notes, but 1 never made them up in that shape. We put the whole excavation in to complete the contract. 2404. Do you know whether the lowering of the giade had any etl'cci oii-tnk.' drains (,i, the excavation ol ottUake drains ?— No. loweVKraYes. 2405. It did not affect that item ?— No. 2406. Assuming that on the road, or at least on this work, there was to be polid embankment instead of trestle work, bow would the lowering of the grade atfect the quantity obtained from other places for the embankment, such as borrow-pits? — It would reduce it. 2407. The lowering of the grade reduces that item? —It reduces the quantities required for embankments. 2408. Have you any idea by what amount it would reduce that ? — There is no calculation that would give it accurately. I could come at it from my notes, but I do not remember. It seems strange that I should not be able to answer this; but tlio calculations that were made were made at different times, a year apart, and there were changes in the allignment during that time which altered the sum total of the whole thing, and I cannot take out these portions to see what the reduction I or increase would be. 2403. You have never ascertained that? — No. 2410. Assuming that the work on this contract was to be done all Lowerins:of«rado I «olid embankment instead of trestle work, would this lowering of the "" "»prov«menU grade be a saving in the cost of the whole work, or an increase? — I should say that the lowering of the grade was an improvement. 2411. Then the lowering of the grade saved expense to the Govern- |iuont, provided that it was all solid embankment ? — I think so. 2412. Have you any idea how much it saved ? — I could not say. 2413. Did you ever enter into any kind of calculation u|)on that sul> Iject ? — No. 2414. Then you are not prepared at all to give evidence upon that [subject? — I could not give anything from any calculation made by mo. 2415. Do you consider that the cost of the road, which is now a good Ifnany thousand dollars more than the first estimate, is in any way due >the alteration of the gi-ades ? — I could not really answer that quc-j- jlion from any calculations of my own. 2416. But I understand you to say that it is a lessening of the cost -that the general effect would be a leasening of the cost? -Yes. j;i^'-;^ OARRE 156 • Increase of cost not due to oliHnKi'H In loca- tion nor to lower- lug of tUe gradcH. ■*ilw«jr Con- atrarllon— <;»uti»«tN«. IS. 2-117. Then can you not f*ay whether the inereaHe was duo to that?— 1 do not think it woh due to that, but I could not Hay anything without calculating. It han inoroaHod the quantitieH, but wliethor it huu in. creased the actual cost I could not say. 2418. It has not increased all the quantities; it has lessened tin borrowing quantities, for instance? — Certainly. That was a jminr that was never gone into— the decrease in the earth excavation from lx)rrow-pit8 to make up embankment ; it was never calculated, iind there was no allowance made lor it. 2419. Besides this change of grade you say that there were aorae changes in the location of the line ? — Yes. 2420. Do you consider that those changes in the location of the line wore an increase or a lessening of the cost ? — 1 think they were a lessening of the cost. 2421. Then this increase over the estimated cost cannot be due to thof d changes ? — No. 2422. So that the increase of cost is not due to changes in location, nor to lowering of the grades ? — I do not think it is. 2423. In your opinion what is it due to ? — It is due to a change— u diftorence in the way of constructing the road. 2424. What was the difference in the way of constructing it?— Making round timber trestle work. 2425. But there was no trestle work. The change that ban actually occurred could not be due to trestle work, because trestle work has beoii actually abandoned as a material feature of the transaction ? — The:i there is no great difference between the two estimates. 2425i. What I want to know is, what two estimates you are com- paring—are you comparing Mr. Whitehead's estimate of the total cost to complete the contract according to trestle work with the actual cost, or are you comparing two different contracts of solid embankments ' —No. 2426. Did you not make an estimate of the works that you thuiigtit wore going to be done on the line ? — In what way? 2427. The last estimate which you submitted was to be largely of trestle work, was it not? — Yes. 2428. Did you not make up that calculation as to quantities?— Ye-' 2429. And when the prices were applied to those quantities the money ing out resulted in a tender of somewhere about $1,000,000 in round numbers, did it not? — Yes ; that is with trestle. mo1)ooto*'tfo(X»^)(io 2130. Alter the contract was entered into changes were made: fiM over ostima'te due of all, by lowering the giado, secondly, by change of location ; and the Inent o/uesUe' I'esult is now that the work is likely to cost from three-quarters to a I work for earth million of dollars over the estimated cost at the beainning — I am ank- embankments. . „ , l i • ^l i. • i • • • .j mi „« ^ i ing you now to what is that increase due in your opinion I — lliat is the increase of earth banks against trestle work. 2431. That is what you attribute it to?— Yes ; I attribute it to the! changes in quantities. In that case the lowering of the grades inadeaj difference. 157 OARRE MtructloH — ,.„, . „ „ , ^ , ^T Conlr»et N«. 15. 2431J. '*ut 't made a dmoienco in favour of the Govornmont ? — Not ns nj,'ainst trestlo work. 2432. You say, broadly, the change wbr because trestle work was abandoned, and earth embankment adopted ? — Yes. 2133. Now what was vour estimate for trestle work? — My estimate w.»^'*i''.''JL"''!:> was $<79,000 I think, or something like that. for treiitii; work. 2434. That ..'mm to bo the cost if these gaps were to be filled with trewtlc work in the way you estimate it? — A portion of this trestle work in for culverts. 2435. Do you know how much of that estimate has actually bcvi imt upon the road in the shape of culverts or bridges, or in any other t*l)apo? That estimate is for the whole amount of the wood work, is it „ot? — Yos. If I c;>uld see the last progress estimate that was sent in I could tell. 2436. Can you give any approximate estimate of what has been actually done ofumt wooden work on that road ? — About 89,800, and there lias been u 1 o».vy amount done since. 2437. You have just left the contract? — Yos. 2438. And have you no idea of the amount of trestle work that has lioon done since ? — 1 have had nothing to do with it since the end of June. 2439. Assuming that 8380,000 represents the amount of trestle work a mount of trestle and iron bridges that was originally intended, can you say about how wi'mim7o "lay much of that has been dispensed with? — About 8370,000, up to the is-o *:t7o,iii)J date of the return of May, 187i^. '^"'■'"• 2440. 1 understand you to say that the increase of the actual cost beyond the estimated cost is due to the substitution of earth embank- ments for trestle work. N«w, by abandoning trestle work, 8370,000 of diat expenditure was saved, how much was the cost of the earth embankment increased ? — 1 really could not give you any figures. lie I lie :i 2441. How much was the estimated cost of the earth work? — The estimated cost of embankment was only taking out the stripping of the imk, and the cuttings. 2442. How much was it?— 879,600. 2443. In May, 1879, can you say what estimate had been made of llhe earth work then done, and yet to be done after that time, in the laggiegate? — The workd one was 82,9^3 yards, and the work to be jdotic Avas 530,252 yards. 2444. Then what would be the aggregate cost of all the earth work [at the tender price ?— 8613,245. 2445. Deduct the estimated cost at the beginning from that ? — It |vould leave 8583,045. 2446. Now that represents the total increase of putting in earth Embankments as they will be put in, above the estimated cost of earth jembankment as at first intended to be put in ? — Yes 2447. Ought you not to deduct from that the estimated cost of trestle jork which has been abandoned and saved, in order to say how much he whole cost has been really increased by this change ? — Part of the Kstlrn.atPd cost of eiiibaiikiiiunt of $7!»,6ttO. May, 1S7M, work done S'J,!W;! yanls ; work to be doae 53i),2VJ yards. AKKrogate cost of earth work at tenier price |Ui;i,245. Total increase oa earth erabank- nieats, ^5S3,t>l,'j. OARRE 1B9 Ballway Cou- nt riivllon— (/Oiilract No. 15. TlilnkR the total ooKtof •■urth work will cxcu'd Solid TfH'k will be l<^8BthHii(!Rtlinatu of May. 187)t, rm,(m yanU InHttwl otr,zym yards. BavliiK In rook avcouiUfd for. Amount ^avcd on lock, $(i8,T,'iO. evidence that I gave wns as to the advantage of lowering the grades ii; cu.se there was solid eml>ankment. 2i48. This $583,fi45 rcpre-sents the total increase in the cost of the earth embankments? — Yes; according to those calculations. 244'J. The etfect of making that increase was to do away with $370,000 of trestle woi-k? — Yes; according to that return. That is «213,G45. 2450. Then that sum, $213,645, repiosents the actual increa'^e oi substituting earth embankmont for trestle work? — Yes; according t) this return. 2451. Do j'OU think this return as to that item is correct, or is 15 too high or too low? — 1 think the total quantity of earth, according' to that return, was too small. The calculation of the amount to be done was too small, 2452. Do you think the total cost of earthwork will eventually bt more than $613,000? — 1 think so. 2453. Have yoii the impression that the executed work when com- pleted, will be more or less than the information given before the Committee? — I think it will be less. 2454. But you think that particular item will be more? — Yes. 2455. Then, on the other item, it will compensate for that ?— The I estimate of May, 187'J, for solid rock was 525,000 yards, and 1 do noil think it will exceed 500,000 yards. 2450. Then you think there will be a saving of 25,000 yard?, of Kolidl rock? — Yes; over that estimate. J did not make another estimate I since the one they have adopted here (pointing to the Blue Book). 1 made one of 516,000 yards, and the lusf one I made is 513,000; nowl do not think it will exceed 500,000 yards, owing to some of the (]evi,v| tions that have been made of late, saving ro:k. 2457. Then that saving in the rock has been by a deviation of the! line? — It is partly due to deviations in the line, and partly to the] cuttings turning out less i-ock than we had calculated for. And then' there are increases in rock quantities duo to deviations in the lino. 2458. Upon the whole you think the rock quantities will be 25,0 yards less than the May estimate of IHIi) ? — Yes. I do not know whjj they have adopted this. They have adopted it because it was thel large.^t, as 1 hi.d another one in of 516,000 yards instead of 525,000 yanij.! 2459. But you say the 525,000 yards estimate is too small ?— Tliatij| of rock, which 1 »»y is too high. 2460. Assuming 500,000 yards to hi v ht, that would be a savingol] 25,000 yards of rock ?— Yes. 2461. What would that amoi nt to ?•- $68,750. 2462. What is your estimate of the total quantity of earth \vhentli«j work is finished? Y'ou say the return is not correct, and I wanttoiit«[ what your estimate is ? — 1 could not say what it will actually he. 1^463. You could not say exactly, but you say ih-vt is not enough ?- It is not enough by the way the work is turning out. 2464. Can you say how much more it ought to be? — No. 150 OARRE ■ailwa>- <'on» Ntructiou— Contract AlO. IS. 2465. I do not understand now you camo to those conclusions and made thofe calculations and not know the amounts ? — I made the calculations and allowed 10 per cent, for shrinkage. Now I know that in places it has shrunk more ttian lli per cent., but how much more I cannot 8r.y. 2460. I am trying to get from you your reasoning about the excess r^oworinK mado of the cost of the works over the estimated cost at the beictonfiietota£ cost of this work that the changes male since the contract was let rn^de'sinre con- would create? — The principal changes in quantities is duo to the lower- t'""' was let. ing of the grades, and assuming tho increase in tho rjock excavation due to that lowering to be 113,000 cubic yai-ds of rock, it would be neces- sary that a decrease of about 565,000 yards of earth required in embank- ments should be made in the amount of earth to till up those spaces, t-o as to balance the cost of forming the embankments at the juesont con- tract prices. The comparative cost of filling voids with trestle work, as against earth, is very materially increased by the lowering of tho grades. If the intention was to complete the contract with solid earth lianks, at contractors' prices, then 1 consider the lowering of the grades was beneficial; but if built with trestle work such as is now being put in by Mr. Schreibor, and the voids to be afterwards filled in with earth by the Government at the actual cost of performing the pnme, I think the lowering of the grades would have the effect of increasing the total cost of completing the contr.vl. All depends on the actual cost of tilling at a further dtite, in ;his last calculation. 1 would also state that the bill of timber in tho bill of works was made before the grades were lowered. It was estimated for a higher gradient than the one that is adopted at present. 2471 . Would the result of lo'vering the grade have a material effect as to Trestle work. iho quantity of timber that vais tendered for ? — It would be very slight. CARRE 160 •Mllway CoB« •traction— 4!ontrnetAo. 15. Material (linVr- ■enc« iti cost oi' trt'wtte work made by di'pth of void. NVhoro a deep void oaii I) (lllrd •with trestle work adviiiUaKeous to tainlv. ii> away with trestle work in every void whore it was only eighteen lio! .' — Yes; according to those p'ans. 2478. Will you explain what you moan about the i-elativo cost oi trestles to fill a shallow void, and to fill a deep void ? — The suporstriK ture, no matter what the depth of the void, is the same. The ditl'orcine in cost between u twenty leet and a forty feet trestle bent, in lioi^ht, is very slight in comparison to the ditlcrenco in cost of a twenty loe; and a forty leet earth bank. 247n. Do 1 understand you to mean this : that whenevci- a deep vnil can be filled wilh trestle work it is advantai^eous to do so?— (.'(■:• Banks ordcroil for certain larisp flllliiKS. 2480. Ilutifitisa shallow void it would be better to fill il with earth than with trestle work? — Certjiinly. In this special caho ihcro were certain large fillings — water stretches — in which banks weiv ordered to be put in. In fact I was instructed that they had been allowed, and that those ])roteclion walls being'al lowed, virtually graiitel earth filling at those points. 1 was also instructed not to calculate trestle work in tho^e cases. 2481. Did yon start to explain this deep filling over water strctcbn with a view to showing the comparative cost of trestle and oaitli embankment? — Yes. I say that in this particular case the earth lilliiii'M were eliminated out of the calculation that I made upon which Mi Itowan's calculation was based; that these heavy fillings that wouW 161 OARRE Coutr«ct No. IS* •traction— have told in favour of the trestle work were eliminated, and the average number of fillings is below the paying price— that is, eighteen feet, 2482. Atwhiti; points were the deepest fillings made? Can you name some of them ? — As it is now ? 2483. Yes ?-Station8 42, 215, 430, 435, 530, 570, 1445, HOS, t^aiiUe. of 1745 and 179 i. Those would be the deepest voids. 2484. Do these numbers start from the east or the west ? — From the east, and number to the west. 2485. Then station 1792 would be about Cross Lake ? — Two miles cast of Ci-oss Lake. 2486. Is there any part of Cross Lake on section 15 ? — Yes. 2487. Is not that a deep fill ? — Yes; but that was eliminated. I have jiot given you any of the water stretches; these are the land voids. 2488. Besides tho-*e stations that you have named, are there other leep fillings on section 15? — Yes, there are. 2489. For the sake of illustration will you name the deepest filling cvoHsiAke the on liection 15, so far as you know?— Cross Lake would be the deepest, swuonr!.' ''"*'' '^^ 2490. What is the height of the filling there above the base ? — It is !^()t'l, mud bottom. 2491. Above the stone base ? — Above the stone base it is not the iiii^host. 2492. I want to know some spot where a deep filling has been filled with eurlh that might have been tilled with trestle; of all those fillings any one filling on the line which absorbed most earth ? — Cross Lake. 2493. Iluve you any idea what that particular filling would cost in Amount of earth the way it has been done, with earth, for the distance that it might (Jro8.ri!ako*" "" l.avo been done by trestle ? — I understood that it took 205,000 yards to till it. That was the calculation some two months ago before I left ilic work, and it tank the other day some five c six feet and they were filling it up again as I was passing. 1 should say it would take now 222,000 yards." 2494. You moan for the distance that might have been filled with irt'stle ? — Yes. Cost of earth |SJ,00O. 2495. What would that cost at the contract j)rice ?— 182,000. 2496. What would it have cost, in your opinion, to have filled that Eurth work and with trestle at the contract prices ?— That 222,000 yards is full lT''L'*T'"'' iiuatility to fall up between protection walls. It is not a calculation lor the amount above rock basis. The trestle work above a rock basis would cost about $17,000. 2497. What would it have cost to put in a rock basis for the trestle work? — That would have been a big item. You would have had to iiaul the I'ock from the cuttings for five miles to have done that. It would take about 120, OaO yards to put the earth toj) on, and that, at 37 (18., would be $44,400. 2498. Whiit would the trestle work have cost ? — The trestle work would have cost about $17,500, a difference of $26,900. That is, with the expense of trestle work. 11 CARRE 16i BAlHvaF 4'on- •f ruclloB— Contract So. 15. Cost of filling Cro88 Lake nccordinK to original opeoiflca- tlon, ».U'J,H;t2 ; ncrording to exe- cution, $l42,.'iOtl. |lft'i,fi32 in favour of earth aod pro- tection tilUnK. Solid cart)) etnl»nkment more favourable as to coNt. In heavy lanti voids, of wliicli there were many, trestle work clie^mr. 2499. r euj)i)Oi>e that this instance you speak of at Cross Lake is a most striking example to illusti-ate the benefit of trestle work ii» against earth embankment ? — It is. 2o00. Supposing the rock basis to have been there, the saving would have been 526,900, in round numbers ? — About that. 2501. But supposing that the rock basis was not there, how would it haveopeiated upon the comparison? — Then j'ou would have had to put in rock points. 2502. What do you consider to be a fair length to take for tho purpose of comparison ? — Seven hundred feet. 2503. And ymi think about fifty feet is the height ? — Yes. 2504. Commencing this work now with the rock protection walls only, and intending to fill in the middle of it so as to make trestle work available, what would be the expense of this most favourable example of trestle work ? — With full rock base and trestle work, as contemplated by the original specification : for the rock, $328,332 ; for the trestle, $17,500; or a total of $345,832. 2505. To have filled that void according to the original specificatioD, it would have cost $345,832 ? — Yes. 2506. What did it cost as it has been executed — with earth — in your opinion, the same void and the same depth ? — $142,500. 2507. How much is that in favour of the earth and protection filling? —$165,832. 2508. Do you mean to say that thp earth embankment in this parti- cular void is $165,000 less expensive than the rock basis and trestle work ? — It would appear so from that calculation. 2509. In suldition to that advantage, in favour of the earth embank- ment, is there not another advantage, that tho trestle work would have to be eventually filled with earth? — The earth embankment is cheaper than a full rock basis. 2510. So that the change from the original intention is beneficial, and this is the most favouretl place for trestle work over the water stretch ? — No ; because the rock basis in this case is very deep. In some oases we have very light rock bases, and very high trestles. It is the excessive rock basis that makes the fri^^htful cost in this case. There is no doubt tfaat a full rock basis would kill the trestle work in eveiy case. 2511. Did it not happen that on this section several rock bases wtre contemplated ? — Yes. 2512. Then was the original arrangement with solid rock bases and trestle work, as favourable to the cost as the later arrangement of making solid earth emkankment? — No; it was not. 2513. A solid earth embankment was the more favourable as to cost ? — It was the more favourable of these two. 2514. In what other places would the trestle work be cheaper?— In heavy land voids. 25 i 5. Were there many of them? — Yes, all those that I gave yon, and one or two others that I have since thought of. 1420 is auother. 2.522. I am at ies OARRE 251C. You have shown that in this particular water stretch the trestle work would have cost some 8164,000 more than the earih embankment ? — Yes ; earth embankment and full rock bates as origi- nally contemplated. 2517. Taking all the water stretches together, in your opinion was the original arrangement for solid rock basew and trestle work super- Btructure more expensive than the I'ock jirotection walls and earth embankment? — It was. 2518. How much more expensive — taking the water stretches only, first? — I would not like to say'. 2519. Would it be in the neighbourhood of half a million in favour of earth embankment? — 1 am not done with this one yet. There is an- other item. That rock that we have charged altogether to your base is now used to make up embankments over land voids in the meantime. 2520. That is in favour of the earth system ?— Yes; it is in favour of it, but then there is a query as to whether, if there had been a full rock base put in, there would have been sucli a waste of earth. 2521. You say, as I undei-stand you, that adhering to the original plan of solid rock bases and trestle work superstructures over the water Htretches alone, that that system would have been much more expensive than the rock protection banks and solid earth embankments? — I have made no calculation for protection banks yet. 2522. I am asking you, from that illustration, whether your opinion la that it would have been better, or less expensive, or worse, that Ih more expensive, to have filled in with rock protection and solid earth embankments over all the water stretches, instead of trestle work and M)lid rock ba^os ? — As a rule the earth and protection walls him far belter, and less expensive. 2523 You mean not '^nly more economical as to future effects, but absolutely less expensive at the present ? — Y'es. 2524. Now as to the other voids on the solid earth foundations, have you any idea as to the comparison in favour of trestle work which you say it would be as against earth embankments ? Take, for instance, any void you remember as most favourable for the trestle work system ? — In every void over twenty feet in depth trestle work would be less expensive than earth tilling. 2525. Have yon any idea what it would have cost to fill all the land voids, as distinguished from the water stretches, with trestle work according to the original specification ? — I am not able to say. 2526. When did you take charge of the works as Government engineer on section 15 ? — In May, 1876. 2527. That was before t>.e contract was let ? — Yes. 2528. Then you wore there when the contractor came on the ground to proceed with the work ? — I was. 2529. Had you any instructions from your superior officer as to the information that you were to give the contractor ? — What sort of information ? 2530. Of any kind ?— Yesj dillorent orders. Hi Mtriivtloii— Contract No. 1ft.. Upon the wliofe, the original ar- rangeineut for solid rock bases and trestle work would have proved more ex- pensive than the rock protection and earth em- bankment. Tiand voids. Trestle work In voids over twenty- feet deep less expensive than earth tllllDg. Took charKe of works as Gov rn- ment engineer, May, 1876. CARRE 164 RallwAv Con< ■trwctlon— f^outntet Mo. IS. HIh Initmntloni from superior ofllcor. Refu.s>id contrac- tors cCi'taln Information. Reason why int<)rnmtl(>u was r<' fused. O>ntrftctor.s coin- II' ".ceii work la Ket ruary, 1K77. Work all cross- «ectl<..ned and cross-soctloDs plotted. Were not Kot from Ottawa until •September. 2531. Do you remember what the inetructions were? — I was insiructed, in the first place, not to let any one know what the pricen were — not even to let my own assistants know what Mr. Whitehead'H prices were. They were printed in a book and published a few dayu afterwards. I was also given general instructions to lay out the work and give the conti-actor points at any places that were noce-ssaiy. 2532. What kind of points? — To lay out his work and allow him to commence at any point he wished. 2533. You mean on the ground ? — Yes ; to lay out his work. 25cl4. Was that all the instructions ? — I cannot remember exactly. I was told to show him any plans that I had in my custody or control. 2535. You were never told to withhold any plans ?— No. 2536. Did you always give any information you could ? — I did not give them all the information they asked for. 2537 What information did you refuse? — They asked for details of every cutting from station to station — so much of a return in eucli month. 2538. I am speaking of a time before the execution of the work; did they ask for any information and plans? — Yes; they asked for a working plan and profile. 2539. Who was it asked for that? — Mr. Rultan at-ked for it. lie wrote to nie several times. 2540. Did ho get it? — Not for some time. 2541. Why not ? — 1 had neither the time nor the material to make it. The work was going on full swing ; my assistants had as n.uch as they coulu do with that work, and I repeatedly asked for stationery to make tliofjo plans and plot my cross-sections, but I could not get it. 2542. Do you mean that they could not get this infoi-mation tliitt they asked for becau-so you had no stationery ? — Because 1 had not tbo material to mtike them with. 2543. Did you show them the originals ? — I did not show them to the contractor him.self, but I told the contractor's engineer that ho could go to the office and look over the works with the assistants, and examine them, or do anything he liked. He demanded this informa- tion as bis right, and said that he was told in Ottawa that he wouki t,'ot it — that he w.is to got copies of all my estimates. I told him that I had no instructions to give them, and that 1 could not do it until 1 gu* instructions. 2544. About what time did they go upon the ground to work ?— In Februaiy, 1877, I think he commenced work. 2545. At that time had any cross-sections been made of this work? — Yes ; the work had all been cross-sectioned ; and the cross-sections had all been plotted and sent down to Ottav/a. I had rep»*atedly as-ked Mr. Rowan to have them brought back, as I knew they were not required there. 1 could not get them back, however, until Mr. Sniilii came out in September. 2546. You had no duplicates of them? — No; nor had I paper to make duplicates on. I had the figures irt niy field notes. 2547. Wa« the location ( there were cl 2548. Do I grade was th(i 2549. Aboi 29th of June, i550. That 2551. How the grades w( gradient and i 2552. Were gi-ade, except 2553. Did tl get the grade ( 2.')54. VVhy( was at work ar 2555. Hady< were not appro put on myself. 2556. Doyoii ground, no grad No. 2557. Vou m< 2558. Then h I'een establishei ni the grades. that were necess 2559. Then th you, were only ( established gradi riiade up the qua 2560. You sup on the grade vvhi 2561. Then wl posed that was 81 iliiy saw the C)0! grades that 1 put ic-locatod the gra -'r)fi2. And you ^eH. 1 telegraph contractor was w< l^tweon such and 256 {. Then the '"■''« your MJggPHl 256 1. But in ac 11'^. I expected ■.»if 165 OARRE 2347. Was any change made either in the character of the work or (he location of the woik, after the contract was entered upon? — Yes; there were chang-3p at different times. 2548. Do you remember what the first change was? — Lowering the grade was the first material change. 2549. About what time was thai? — The new grades came out the 29th of June, 1877 ; and the work had been going on from February. 2550. That was the first material change ? — Yes. 2551. How did you come to be informed of that change ? — Some of the grades were telegraphed to us from Ottawa, just the elevation gradient and the rate per hundred. 2552. Were there any other instructions given as to change of grade, except by telegram ? — Yes ; we got copies in writing. 2553. Did they follow the telegraph ? — Yes. I pressed so hard to get the grade of certain portions that they would have to telegraph it. 2554. Why did you preps for the grades? — Because the contractor was at work and wanted them. 2555. Had you not the grades already ? — I h. I the grades but they were not approved by the Chief Engineer. They were grades which I jiiit on myself. 2556. Do you mean that at the time the contractor came upon the ground, no grade had been regularly and authoritatively established ? — No. ■•llwav Con* •triM-tlon— OontnkfltBlo. 15* Changes made artvr contract was entered on. Flri>t clinnKo : grade lowered. 2557. You mean it was lefl uncertain ? — Yes. Grade iinoertain at the time con- tractor carne on ground. 2558. Then how was there a change made if the grade had never tjiIs explained. heen established ? — I established them myself. After re-locating I put f n the grades. I sent down a plan, profile, cross sections, and the data ihat were necessary to put on the grades properly. 255^. Then these changes that came by telegraph, or otheiwise, to you, were only changes from the suggested grade and not from the established grade ? — Yes; from my suggested grade on which I hsitl made up the quantities. 2560. You supposed then that when the contract was let it was let oil the grade which you had suggested ? — Yes. 25C1. Then why was it necessary for you to telegra])h, if you sup- poced that was sufficient to go on with ? — Because I was certain whe«» tlioy saw the cross-t-ections that they would alter the grades. Tnese grades that I put on were the four feet hoist, and when the line was relocated the grades would have to be adjusted. -5fi2. And you would v.rite or telegraph for definite information ?— Yen. I telegraphed to get the grades at the different points where the contractor was working. I would telegraph : " Please send mo grades liHweon such and such stations." 25 me (saying that I might make the protection walls for the present. 2591. When was that ? — It might have been in August that he wrote in An?uM.Rowan ... ^ ...1^1° .»• iii^.i ^ had written to go me telling me to go on With the protection walls lor the present, as on with tii.> pro- they were only a portion of the solid rock bank. th^'nr"i«at!*"^' 2592. Was that for a particular locality, or all over the line ? — Tho only ease in point then was at Monk Bay, station 40. 2593. Do you moan that Mr. Rowan's letter authorizing the rock protection walls referred to only one locality ?— I would prefer to look at my notes before speaking positively of those things while under oath. (After looking at the book) : On tho 3rd of November he wrote me, stating that Mr. Smith had authorized the contractor to put in tho efore any Committee ? — I think so. Not authorizing it, except in that conditional way, that it would be bettor to commence with those side walls, and we could afterwards till in the middle and make full rock bases. 2602. That was not authorizing a change, but authorizing a step preparatory to the change, if it should be afterwards authorized. Now, going back to the grades of section 15, what is the usual practice uprm that subject? Is the engineer of construction the one who rules it, tho grjuies, or the superior oflScer who has not been over the ground ?— On tho Intercolonial Ilailway and the Pacitic Railway, as far as 1 have done work I have put on my own grades, as engineer in charge of the party, to guide myself in the location, and those grades were after wards re-adjusted by the Engincei-in-Ohief. 2G03. Who had not been over tho works? — AV'ho had not been over the works. They were tinally readjusted allor tho crosssectioninir was done. 2604. Your own views would not bo carried out in reference to the change of grailes ? — No; unless I was consulted. 2605. Would you not be better informed on the subject of the (^ffoi : of change of grade than anyone else who was not on tho ground.''— Y^es ; unless they had the ci-o.-^s-sections I would be better inforrni'd, 1 had the material written on the cross-sections. 2606. Besides this change in tho biiso for trestle work, was thero any in^tructi()ns given to you about getting all the earth you could iipoi: the line instead of using trestle work ? — Yes. 2607. When was that instruction given you? — Those wiero veihiii insti-uctions given in 1877, 1 think in tho summer of 1&77, thai wherever borrow-pits wore found available without extra haul, the contractor might oo allowed to form banks from them. 2608. Do you remember where you were when you got those verba! instructions? — Yes; about station 250. 2609. Was any one along with you when ho gave you those iiistrui tions? — Mr. Fellowes, my assistant ; and Mr. Huttan and Mr, Charles Whitehead, I think, were thero. 2610. Was that considered by you at the time a change from the original intention of tho contract? — It was certainly a change from the intention at the time that the quantitiea were taken out, as 1 169 CARRE ■tkllnray Con* ■trurtion— Contract No> 15» undei'btood them. Foralthourh the quantities consiBted of earth in excavation from cuttings and borrow-pits, wo had no data to go upon as to the quantity in borrow>pit8, and therefore I made no (-nlculation of that amount. The idea was, when that 20,000 yai'ds was calculated, to Htrip the rock and take out the gullet afterwards. 2611. Have you within your control now the particulars of that sur- vey of the southern line which you made as against this adopted line ? —1 have not. I have a portion of it — the protile. 2C12. Have you sufficient data to give full particulars ? — I have the calculations of quantities in the cuttings as I made them oui at the tirao. 2613. llad you at any time fuller information / — I had. 2614. Ir what shape was it ?— It was in the shape of a bill of works far the whole forty milori. 2615. Had you a protile and plans? — I had the location plan and loontion protile. 2616. Have you those now ? — No ; I have not. 2617. Where are they ? — Ihey are deposited in the head office at Ottawa. 2618. Why were they deposited in the head office ut Ottawa ? — All liliiiis and profiles of the road are deposited there. All the plans of all the surveys, trial surveys and everything, wore deposited there. 2619. Have you looked at them since thoy woro deposited? — Yes. 262(». Are they to be had now ? — I saw the profile in May, 1879. 2621. There have been some changes in the location of section 15, as well as changes in the grades; wei'O they made by you? — They were made under instructions — after receiving instructions trom Mr. Rowan or Mr. Smith. 2(122. Would they give instructions without information from your- These lost rue- self, or wouKi tliey be based on your own views ? — They wore based su^r'^esuonl from on .suggestions of m}' own. «...„„„„ M lerlals for n <-oiiip)irlson of quantUloit In tho adopted line and the soiithorn llr.i) not at witness's command, they helngdeposltuu in head offlee, Ottawa. The ehangt's In location wero made acoordlnx to Instructions from Rowan or >cc- tion of lln«' .• J'nrtlcularH of. ■trnction— coiiiriMt No. 19. 2626. Wiilton insfructioim?— No; vorl.al instructions over the lino. Then, uAoi- i^roat proHHuro I got |ioi'mi48ion to mako one or two uitur. utionM. 2627. Oid Mr. Rowan |tnH» over (lio lino frequently to inspect it ?— Not veiy. 2628. About how often while you were in charge of construction?— Kirnt in 187H, he came out once or twice and canoed alonir the cainju route over half of it tliat summer. Then he came out again in the full and stayed at my camp for some days at Ivoewatin waiting for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith did not come while he was there. lie was beliiiiil time and the weather was very broken and bad, and Mi-. Kowan nul I both started in for town. Mr. Smith arrived after we left and wulkmj over a short distance of the line, and then came on to Winnipeg. 262!>. Then, after the contract was let? — After the contract was let Mr. Jlowan came out twice or throe times, in 1877— once in the wiiitc- time. I cannot remember the dates, but I have them all noted in tiiy diary, lie wa.s out from two to three times a year. 26.}0. That is as often, 1 suppose, as division engineei*s ought to go over the lino to get crrec*. information on tho subject? — Yes; if tlioy go regularly over it. If tho line had boon walked it would have Imen sufficient for the first year in my estimation— he would have lournoj something about the line ; but there was no walking over it until tho hummer of 1877, when 1 asked him to come out and fix the structuies, and state what structures wore to be put in at different points. Hu then walked for the first time one half of tho lino, that is from Spiuio Lake down to Keewatin. 2631. Do you mean that at different times ho has been over tho lino sufticiently to get the information that your superior officer ought ly get ?— Not before that. 2632. That time and since?— Ho did not walk over tho remainder of it until 1878, a few days before Mr. Smith walked over it in September, 1878. 2633. Did you apply to him to come at other times before he came? — I did, repeatedly. Rowan did not go 2*134. Do you mean that ho should have come earlier and oftonor than oveAhe line, and ho did ? — I wished him to come oftonor so as to assist me and see thinf?8 ium^ed**!*!! conse- ^^^ himself. In my opinion 1 thought it was nocesuary, and woulJ quence. have been of advantage to the work it bo had done so. 2635. Did he give you any reasons for not coming ? — Ho said he was very busy generally, and was delayed by otiier work. 2636. Has the business of tho road in any way suffered by his delay or omission, as far as your opinion goes? —1 think so ; 1 think if he had seen it for himself and urged the thing more strongly than has been done, he might have got more definite instructions sooner. He did do a good deal. He did write, you can see by his letters, to Ottawa on different occasions, forwarding my suggestions and his own aboat matters, but no attention was paid to them. ''^eAia''isTn"^a?t ^^^'^' ^° y^" mean, then, the fault was not with him, but with some responfTibi'e lor ono at Ottawa? — Possibly; I should say so from the letters I have seen. 171 CARRE 1 (iiil not got tl»o infonniitlon I uskol for, and it U))|>eur8 that he had ankoJ lor it at Otlawu. 2H3H What Hort of information ? — Thoro wa^ ono inHtance in which I |)ro|)0>«od that chuap masonry culvortH, permanent Htructururt, nhould 1)0 put in instead of thowo very expensive troMtIo cuIvoi'Im. ! Heo by lijti letter that he propoHed thnt at Ottawa, but no notice wan taken of it. It is now being done hy Mr. Schreibor. lie iH hauling out these trestle culvertH at groat expenwo and putting in the \ery utrueturos that I |)ropoHod in the lall of ln77 — putting them in oven aher the culverts arc built, and taking out tho timber. 2630. J)o you mean that it would have been hotter to have done it long ago, when you Hr.st suggested it ? — Yos ; and there would be no trouble about it now. 2(140. Who do you blame for its not being done? — Some person in Ottawa. I suggested it to Mr. J?owun, who writes to say that ho fully approves of it, and that he would make the suggestion of it at Ottawa. I soe he did make tho suggestion at Ottawa, and nothing wa*j done. Whose fault it is is not for mo to say. 2G41. How long did you remain in charge of settion 15? — Four vours in charge of construction. 2642. When did your. connection with it end?— Last June. 2fi43. Was tho work still in the contractors' hands at that time? — I could not say. Mr. Ilaney was sent out to take charge as superintend- out of the work. 2644. Is he an enginoei-? — I do not know whether he is or not ; he li»i a good knowledge of engineering as far as I have seen. 2645. Do you mean that he supplanted you? — Ho took everything in his own hands. 264.- section through the bush with only one axe man to each party, ho then allowed me to keep on a sufficient number, ^o prove that the altei'^ tions in the grades wei-e under consideration \r July, 1878, I p-o ^icea letter dated 3l8t July, 1878, which says : " I have received a •' ier to- " day from Mr. Marcus Smith informing me that he will be at ih) M " Portage about the middle of August. He says that the grades, (Sic. "on the section are to be overhaul(jd and the ouantities revised, eo " as to give an approximate estinuUe of the final cost." That proves ihe 2CC8. Then it w 173 CARR£ ■nllwajr Con« ittrnctloB— stato of uncertainty in which I was kept as to the grades, even in 1878, <'«"»»"*':t mo. is. (Exhibit No. 8y.) 1 now produce a copy ut a report which 1 made to Mr. ?ulI,>rior offherH'*' IJowan direct, dttted 9th of November, 1874, showing that I did not in ii{noriiiio.> of leave my superior officers in ignorance of the work that wasdoiio, and '•'"'<'■•''''*'*' work. Iiow it wan being done, and the character of the country through whi(^h l^asned. (Exhibit No. 90.) 2i55. Did you ever make an estimate of iho ainoutitof r x'!w required to be excavate*! on this section, so as to make the rock base-j accoixling to the original plan? — A full rock basis? 2656. Yes ?— I did. 2()57. What diu the full rock basis call for?— It culled for 1B3,387 Ofq^'/^^Vi k1.'.w7 vardrt of solid rock in excavation. yiir»j«of.m>iii"irocic ♦^xcAvalloii. 265S. Was that over the water stretches only ? — That was over water iirelches at ten points. water ' stretches ? — Yes ; that walls rttqnirt'il H;i,7i)i) culilc yjinlu I'XCIlVllllOl-. 2H59. Did not that include all the i'lcluded all the water stretches. 2600. Did you ever make an estimate of the quantity required to be excavated to make full protection walls r.t the same place? — 1 did at the same time, 2661. What did the rock protection walls oall for in excavation ?- ^3,700 cubic y.' 'ds. 2662. What would be the ditforenco in the quantities? — 99,687 cubic Ditrereiiw: *),f)87 yards. •'"'''<' >'"'"'^* 2063. Would the adoption of the t■^■ch. protection walls, instead of solid bases, save absolutely the expanse of that quantity of rock, or wou'ifi it only reloaso it for use a' Mxao other place? — it would release it for use at other places, unless an equivalent were borrowed. If it wtMC not taken out of the rock cultin'js then it would have to be liorrowed. 2664. There was a great deal more than 189,000" vards of solid rock Morotiian is.),o«o 1.1 , , 11 i o A- > ^ yjirdsof solid riKjk I taken out at all events ? — i es. takonom. 2665. Then the decision not to use it in the rock bases would not JHive the expense of that much rocR cutting, as it hatl to come out at |jill uveiUs .iomewlierc? — Yes. 2666. Ycu would only use it in another place instead of at the ba'^es ? I— In forming the ba-cs wo must u- • ■ • ,'^ .' OARRE 174 Miniction— Contrni-t Mo. lA. Kftto iof extra haul ol rcKk. 2672. Then it was a mere question whether it should bo put in here or somewhere else ? — Yes. 2673. The decision of not putting it into the rock bases did not Haro the expense of the rock ? — It may have pave7r). Do you remember what that rate was? — A cent a yanl iVn every hundred feet over 1,200 feet up to ?,500 feet. For a greuter distance than 2,500 feel it was paid at the rate of 13 cts. a yard. 2676. Have you made up any estimate of the rock that would iiaw been available at these points, tor either the bases or the protoctiun walls, without extra haul ?— I could not separate it. I made an ostiinau of the extreme distance on either side of each water stretch from which it would be necessary to haul rock, so as to obtair» a sufficiopt quantity to form the solid rock bases. That was in accordance witu instructions received from Mr. Rowan oi-dering me to force tho con- tractor to take out no cuttings on either side of the water stretch until sufficient, lock had been obtained to form that full rock base. 2677. Vou mean to prevent his putting it anywhere else? — Yc8. 2678. You do not mean to prevent him from taking it out, but to picvent him from applying it anywhere else? — Yes; forcing hira tu iiaul it round or over intermediate cuts, or through interm -ite cuti*. 2679. Have you prepared a statement showing between what s'ations in the neighbourhood of each fill over a water stretch it would be rcquived to take the rock to supply what was required for that parti- cular stretch ? — I have. 2680. Have you distinguished in that statement between the rook that would be required for protection walls and the rojk that would be require! for a solid base? — I have. *j| ti 2681. And have you distinguished the distances? — I have. I have given the stations in each case between which sufficient rock, as esti mated at the time, would be obtained. I produce the statement (Exhibit JSfo. vf location. iris prcliiiiliiary survey did not k<> farther wcnI tliiin eastern boundary of Province of Manitoba. Urunel InKtructed to make a cio^h- Ing on tlie JUmI HI ver and to run to eafterly •)ouiiilar\- of t'rovluce. where about two foet lower ? — It wiw in accordanco with the proHont grades. 2685. So that the width of the ba.'^es would bo narrower for the present grade than according to the contemplated grade of the leUin" of the contract ?- It would. 268G. The.se are the leaser quantitiea then ? — Yea. 2687. Going back to the time of your being employed in locating ilie line on 14, do you way that you located it as far west as Kod Rivor?— No ; I jiever located it. 1 ran the preliminary line. 2683. Who made Mie location ? — It was made by different parlii^ Mr. Brunei located as far as Brokenhead, in the winter of 1874-7,j. I think ho ran in the curves then. Then Mr. Forrest ran the locution of the remainder of it, I think. 2689. You (lid not locate any part of U?— No ; I did not. 2690. What did you do towards ascertaining the line to be used?— I made a preliminary survey, and I plotted the plan, and laid down what! proposed as a location, and on that propo.-^ed line I inado an approximate profile. 2691. Were you employed on that work all the way west l<) Ked I?iver, on 14? — I was employed on the preliminary survey. 2692. Did you do it all the way to Red River?— I did not; 1 (ml- caino to the eastern boundary of the Province. 2693. Did you expect to go further west than that?— I did. 2694. Why did you not go further west? — Because I icieivoJ instructions from Mr, Rowan — or a letter fVom Mr. Rowan — statinij that 1 was not getting on fast enough, a'ld Mr. Fleming wus m<-' anxious to have the work done immediately, and that therefore ho huii in.structod Mr. Brunei to make a crosnirg of the Rod River anti n; eu.sterly to the easterly boundary of the Province to moot mo [\wu. I can produce that letter. 2695. Had the employ inent of Mr. Brdiicl Tor that work the ctt'octof fiiiiHhing the prelimiiiaiy survey sooner than you would have done it ' — Yes ; it had. Brunei's oniploy- menl. expedited work bv about a Jbrtnliiilit. Nhoal liAkf t<» Mclkirk« Instructed to go to tDlioal Luke lo run easterly flfty miles. 2696. llow much sooner ?— About a fortnight. I should say 1 have run it in a fortnii'ht. 00ll;'J Took soundings of crossing near Selkirk. 2697. What became of your parly the time Mr. Brunei came ii, between you and the river? — Aa noon as I had made the connerti: with Mr. Brunei's work I received instructions to move camp ami ^-i westerly to Shoal Lake, north of the Province of Manitoba, and run easterly fiftj' miles back, to join the western end of Mr. Bruner.s survey, 2698. Was that the time you took the soundings of the crossiug iiftir Selkirk ? — That was the same time. 1 was engaged at the sounditiL'- j while my transit man, Mr. Forrest, was engaged at that line. It wa.^ merely the production of a long tangent — running a straight liMJ through for fifty miles. 2(;99. As t would be a p 2700. Whe of the rivor, 2701. I8 tb liocn ;iny plu( was a place fi .'(now. 2702. Is thi told thei'o was hundred feet ( ■If not I do no 2703. Have liccii adopti-'d than tlic plan 2704. What 2705. Whor 1,01th of Sngai 2706. Has il >iile of the rive !iecn an alteial 2707. Did yi ))fopoM>(l crosf* liftMi cliatigcd, 270S. Which estimation ? — 1 27n!t. How t 2710. Didyo /ivor jir Mutin's till, and the to(j I'M the bottom. 'or >oli(J roc|<^ ;, 2711. Is then '■V!is a more e.\j) -"12. Is (lioi\ ■"• wat all. I J) ixiK-'Osive, but.s -. I'. Uoing I :naie protile for ^"U. Didyoi iis far a.s I i.^J [• -'715. Woul.l '"' fiiade up ih oeiiove it was. 2716. The qua .V'tiir prortle, but logetlici-?— Ye.s. 12 1 "•■• I « t CARRE Hallway Loca* tlon- 2i!".>9. As to the soundingn, did you find any place that j'uu thought *'J°"ve7?^ "*^ would be a proper silo for a crossing? — I did. 2700. Where was that? — Near Mr. Biinn's residence on the cast bank of the river, about half a mile south of Sugar Point. 2701. Ih that where the crossing is now supposed to be, or has there lieen any place fixed tor the crossing as yet? — 1 am not certain. There WHS !i ])lace fi.xed, but whether it has been changed since or not I do not know. 2702. Is this place that you found suitable for a crossing? — 1 was ^"'^""J'" ""'vey told there was another survey ordered by Mr. Schrcibor within a few H,!imu>.T'. hundred feet of the same point. Whether that crossing will bo adopted ■ If not I do not know. 2703. Have you understood at any time (hat a crossing place hud liocn adopted by the Doparlinent ? — No; I have not. Nothing more tlum the plan showed it. 2704. What plan? — The general plan with Mr. Fleming's report. 2705. Where did it show it to be ? — About a mile or a mile and a-half north of Sugar Point. 270it. lias it got any name ? —The town of Selkirk is on the west M(le of the river, !ind the lino passes through it. 1 think there has ]iecii an alteration since I made llio soundings. 27"7. Did you take the soundings at SelU'r!:?— I did at the then propofcd crossing — Mr. Bi'unel's propo.»el crossing. iSiiice then it has iifiMi changed, I am informed, 270S. Which was the most desirable place lor the cros.sing, in your rixMnost ii.'sir- c^tiniiition ?— The one at Bunn's. " ;'''i';.'I',7r,iv" iH'lli Oil 11 II S. 27"". How tar south is that of the one you speak of as Mr. Brunei's cios.-iifg ? — About a mile and a-halt, I should say. 2710. Did 3'0)i find a good f(Mindation for any structures across the Roou r>>iiiiilation5 ■ jvor !it Hunn's? — I did. I had I'cgular boring tools and had long]v)les supi'.orif Vouiuij viil. and the tools dropped through holes in the ice, and tappe I along tii.ie. on llio bottom. It struck solid roi-k eveiy stroke, or what was taken till' Mtlid rock, and what I beliexe to be solid i-ock. 2711. Is there a-t good a foundation at the Brunei cro.^sing? — There ".Viih a more expensive one. 271-. Is there as good a fo\indation? — No; 1 f')und no solid rock .\t Bnim'' r nvi.s th»!« lit all. I passed through chi}- and loose gravel. It would be more ohiy aijVi"*,',o8o" txjiensive, but s< ill it coulJ be made a good foundation. sand. 271:5. tioing ba -k t> scciion 14, you say that you made an appro.Ki- Contrmi Xo. I4« in.'ito profile for the location of the line? — I did. 2714. Did you make that for the whole of section 14? — I think so; ;is far a.> ! i^-ui run. Mr. Brunei had made his pn)file of the other pait. 2715. Would the bill of works offered to pers(»ns who were tendering * rnade up from the quantities as ascertained by that profile?—! tielieve it was. 271tJ. The quantities could not be made w\\ as I understand, from tf"'^"ll'•^^':,""i'^ vouf profile, but thev could be made ui) from yours and Mr. Bniriel s up from tiio logctiicr l—\ es. ^,„, Brunei. Yi ,f CARRE 178 Riillt««>- l.o lum - «>nui'n<-i «». It. jil]!. V. (Ill- pn .rill' extended only aw Ihi- west jis the lioiindury oC llie I'covinie '.'' — Ves. as the e.'t.slei n Uoiindai y. The presont line in not nt iili in the sanie ]H>.-itiun in which I htid il down, and on whieh I niadi' my app:<»xiniate profile, DeviationH hjtve heeti made in a great imiuhiT 'if |iluC«'S. J7J8. Do j-ou mean >»ince the contract was let ? — ^'es. J7nV That woultl not art'eet the ijill of woiks attached to the tetidei.>.' — It woii!d atlect the «'\c< uted (,iiantities. Pill ..f works 2720. I wa- trying' to rir.d out who was leNponsiliio foi- the I'iil oi on"p''.'./ii!""of ""^ "'"'-'^^ oftVi-tNi to people tendering: ' -Thi-y were made ii|i, I believr, ov Cm I. ■» 11(1 Brunei, that. ! did not make them up, Imt that was the only information thai was in the department at the time. 'J7-1. As far a:< you know, the lill (d" woi-ks for the whole of seetioi. !i was mjide up troin the (juantilies shown [>y your profile t<> tliu la^tern Itountlary of tlie Fmvinee, and Mr'. JJiMinel's profile from the oastoin Iniiinda'-y to Red liiver? — Yes. 2722. But you did not make them up? — No ; hut I wish it to lio understood that the line unw is not in the posilitin it was when I localeii it. Ifniypiutile i.- called in quention the ([Uantities executed may vary from the <|U'intities mjule from my profile, hy ctianges in the r/i»M-atkIi'iun'in(C location, and not fi-om inaeeuracy of the jtvofiles. 2723. I>o you know who maiie up tho.so (|uantitioH on section U .' — — I < »«»iiot remember. 2724 Where were the}' sua ie u[i' — I think they were made in <)ttawa 111 "tie winter of 1874-75. 2 2.'). V<>u were goinj; to Ontario; in what pai-l ot' Ontario will you prol.al'ly hi- it' we should want you as a witness a month or sn iaiei- .•' — My address will ho Carleton Place, near Ottawa. • Quant i1 i> ."< fXi'Ciitcd iiii„-tit Vitry CroHi <|ii;in- 111 ics made up Irom jirofllf nf •wit iic.«s 111 consc- <|U<'l)ci' ol'cllHI.m RailMk> Coil •tIriK I il ('unlritt I Ho.IA. ■Wit new siinKcst- •»i cour:wjin jvnd otlicM- parties t'Xi)ro>^Ked tbe hiinie opinion. iJ733. To you? — I think 1 have }ioard him say so. "7?.fi. What was tho idoa of HUff<;estint' that the contractor should H.asonsior ;.'t'l rid oi tliese jtersons .'' - It was Liocanso of tlio little disliirliancus ane parties •ii whom you objected has affected the efficiency of the work m any w.iv'f — It was my opinioi\ at the time. '.iT30. 1 am asking whether the retaining of them ha I a bad effect on •ill- woik ? — That is my opinion. 2740. That the woi-k is not as well d[iecitication ^lates that the cuttings shall be left in a workmanlike manner ; ami t(» permit of making the final return of any cutting the -;i>fies had to be dressed up and left so that there will be no danger from tailing portions of the rock. Great portions have fallen down siace hen and have had to be removed ; and in case of the contractor tlirow- ;mi: ii|) the contract, or its being taken out of his hands, I thought it was liio|)Oi', in accordanc'j with the sjK'c'ification, that the cuttings should be leaned up and left completed, otherwise we could not arrive at the intual cost of the completion. Bottoms were left in certain cuttings whieh have not l»een taken up yet. Some of them are being taken up now at great expense; others of them are left in, and it is almost impossible to get men to go in and take them up. 2742. Why, is there any danger in taking them up now ? — Yes. 2743. What does that arise from ?- -From the leakage of glycerine in ^.^^^^ ^^^^ tiie cracks. There were three men blown up in one instance, in diilling b.>uoinH »o left in a hole to make the water course. fml^"""* ^''^"«^'- 2744. That is while taking out the bottoms of unfini.shed cuttingH? — \'eb; that was a difference of opinion between myself and Mr. Euttan. Tliey thought it was not necessary that this work should be done, and liibrnied me that it was their intention tr> do it afterwards when the I i.Mii;iiiu was passing. I objected to that on the ground that tlie rails Ittitrht he injured. 12^ «■* CARRE 180 A Mllway Coil* ttriictloM— Coiit>art No. 1.1. Contrnctors thnu;{>)t wlt?icH« wiiN not kIvImk thi'm Kiilticlfiii 2745. By tho explosion ? — liy any l)lasting tliut was nootHsmy in tl).> bottoms, or by throwing down any heavy roclcn or houMois from th; sideH. That was one o I understand then at tiim-s you would certify thai u smaller quantity of rock excavation had been executed than had acii!- silly been done? — Yes. 2748. And you would do that .so that the deficiency would hol|» ili' (Jovernnient to reimburse themselves if they had to do the re>t of ii yt a higher ])rice? — Yes; it is the usual way with engineers. 2740. Then when they certify quantities the}' arc allowed toexfidso a discretion as to whether they will put in the real quantilies e.Kccuk.l or a Hmallor amount? — Y'es. 2750. And at times you did certify to a snialler amount ?—Yo-, 1 (lid ; ani there were times whjn tlijre were errors m ide by mys.Mlaii I by my a.ssistants. One month a cei'taiti item would not be retunul, but it would be placed in the next month's estimate. 2751. Tiiat would be unintentional ? — Ye>. 2752. But this action you h:ivo spoken of would be inteiitioua!?- Ves ; and was done undei instructions. 2753. Was it done under written instructions ?— No; verbal instni- excavat'ions^U)""'^ tions. It was a perfect understanding between Mr. llowan and mysclt, slopes, hut ttui.v I wish further to say that under the specification the contracor is bound to take out exactly to slopes ; that the specification states tlmi no oxcavatio i shall bo paid for out:side those slopes, uiiless uiuli'ia written order from tho engineer. 2754. Which engineer ? — The engineer in charge of the works ; il,.' specifications of the enginecr-inchief. They, in taking out their cut- tings and using high explosives, shot portions of rock beyond the prism. Those portions of rock, in my estimation, were left in a daui^erou' state, so that they were liable to fall down at any time. They claimei solid rock prices for the removal of those pieces. I refused, under the specification, to return them, because tho specification said that they would be paid nothing for them witbout a written order. Theso portions of rocic were shot out by their own action, by the large charges of explosives which were used. In many cases the holes weie Contractors shot portions of rock bey oml ()riNm. liored (^utsidf! ir in accordan 'at ion says t iiiid 1 undorsi hcciire so that III the specific! Wioiild a sh'do c'.4iiiiated at Ic ;t my duty to L'755. Wtis il 2756'. And tl Uiv it. The sp it unless it wtis 2757. Then t you refused to i Dv uiiie cases ii .•ind blasting cm 2758. Was fli yi'U refused to c^ tractors— in oth without excavat 2759. But still niiuie a return ic '27«0. Would t smaller charges fukipted ?--I con 2761. Do3'ou than were r.ecest 1 do not say dee iiml deep holes t I'e in a tunnel. 2762. Could tJi, "/ some of this n to ?-They could "If re to do it. excavated outsid( bve done and lo." ■'ii'i' to get earth mottled. That is "i^ocitication says m> power to go b( , 2763. When yo i^i¥t instruction' ?- ^^Tfi4. At the b ;illow anything. 2765. Then M,. tliiit subject, by a , 2766. In wfiat " MN solid rock, ai 181 CARRE lioitHl outsidii of the prism to throw out the rm\i. I refused to return ir in ai'cordance with the HpociHeation, as I unden^tood it. The speciti- (iitioti sayw that everything nlmll be left in a workmanlike manner, uiid 1 ui)dor!«tand that to mean that the cuts Hhall be left fai'o and hccure HO that there can bo no slides or slips. There is another clause 111 the specification which says that after the slope** are piopeny formed ^ll(Mlld a slide occur in iho rock then that slide shall he measured and estimated at loose rock prices. Under the^e clauses I did not consider ;t mv duty to make any return for Ihcm. '_'Tr)5. Was it not used in making up the rock bases? — Ves. 275tJ. And there was nothing paid for it? — There was nothing p.ii(i !(ir it. The specification said clearly that nothing sh )uld bo paid for it unless it was a slide, 2757. Then these portions ol the rock outside of the prism, for which V(Ui rciusod to certify, came off, or were e.Kcavate I, by the negligence or default of the contractors ? — I could not say that it was negligence. lii (.(jnic cases it was from errors of their own men in driving the hole and blasting outside of the slopes. 2758. Was there any portion of this rock oi tside of the prism, whi(di yi'U refused to certify, that was excavated without any fault of the con- tnunors— in other words : that they could not perfoi m the contract without excavating? — Certainly, there was. 2759. But still you declined to certify for it ? — Yes. Since then I have liiiKle a return for a portion of it. 27t50. Would there have been less excavation outside of the ])rism if smaller charges and more shallow borings had been used than were fukipted ? — I consider so. 2761. Do you mean that by using larger chai'ges and deeper borings ihan were i.ecessary they took out more rock than was necessary ? — i ilo not say deeper than was necessary, but by using liigh explosives ;iii(i deep holes there was more rock shot off the sides than there would k' in a tunnel. Li a tunnel they only take off about a foot. 2762. Could they have, by exorcising great care, saved the excavation if some of this rock outside of the prism, which you refused to certify to?— They could, I believe; but it would have cost them a great deal III (re to do it. I think it would have cost them moie not to have excavated outside of the slopes than it will cost them to do it as they hiive (lone and lose the price. Since then it has been decided that they ;,ie to get earth prices to cover all that when the contract is finally settled. That is a case that did not come under my jurisdiction. The siiccitication says distinctly that they shall not be paid for it, and I had ii(> power to go beyond it. 2703. When you speak of "earth jirices," that was Mr. Fleming's fiibt instruction ? — Yes. 2Tfi4. At the beginning you allowed only earth? — Xo; I did not iillow anything. 2765. Then Mr. Marcus Smith was the fii-st person who dealt with that subject, by allowing something? — Yes. 2766. In wtiat classification did Im allow it? — The contractor claimed iifiswolid lock, and Mr. Smith f>aid, on the ground, that he would allow Ntrurtlou— Cuiitrnei Ko 15. RcriiBod to n'turn rofk rorNoMd rcM-lt pricif, Ac. Soiiii- poriloDH nl rnck "ii.lstde priHiii I'xcaviitod wUhout any fun It iif coiitracliirs, for wlilcli he rurusftl to (certify, l)ut foi- a portlou of which he ulli- iniitcly ci-rtiricd. ('(i«triiftors sliot otBoo much rock hjpiii,' use ot hiKli • •xplosives. Ppcicled since to pay earth prices for tills scaltcrcct rock. Afarcns Stmith first allowed loose- rock prices. CARRE IS'l ■allway Con* MlriM tlo•l— < tMllrnrt Aio. 15. Kill lull riirtioiiM <-«ini! lifter wan Is Irotii (Jttiiwii to |iHy (inly nirtli |)iiceH. On IciiriiliiK Hmltli's(l«.'cl.sloii Witnt'NH put III It lllllipHIIIII llf lO.IIIKI yanl> iil loosf Kli'iiilnu's (iri| ul Idosi' rock III I lie <'Hrth (•olniiin. (laVH 0Olltl'ilC»'K gcnoral InstniW f Ion!). Asked to kIvo written onlern in certain cases hut refused. M)lid nnk. Then ho came into lown, and (Hi connullalion with Mi. K<»wun they roduced it to Ioono irici; pricuti. 27<»7. And then al'torwurds ?— Tlusn uftor the mattor was iliMcu>ri,;il in Ottawa in May, thorn were inslructioiis to pay only earln j)rii'«'s liy it. Art rtooii as Ml'. Smith decided that thoy were Lo receive loose mc ; prices I put in a lump sum of 10,000 yards al loowo ro(d{ prices, i,, cover aiiylhiiig oul.side of .slopes. I had no time, and had only a feu- days liefore the ehtimale, and I put in the lump «um, estimat'iig it u' hI'Oiii 5 per c:ent. of Ihe total rock excavation. 27(1''. Was that as near a sum as you could arrive at ? — Vtw. ] intended it to he approximately coi'rei-l, and thought it wouM a-sisi the contractor. 27(!!K Wafl any chan/^e mndo afterwanU ? — Ves ; then 1 was oiileir! to transfer iha'. 10,0;s? — I do not thin'i v(»ii , because I do not ihiiik there over was a specification similar to theirs. U7s2. What was your principle? — My first principle was to estimate :is closely as 1 could, the number of stones that I finind, or I saw, in ihc cuttings, and estimate the (quantity in cubic yards. '^^i'^. On what rule? — The specification said, over fourtoeti cubic foot und under fort}' was to be loose rock. A stone fourteen cubic foot is a little over three feet in diameter if it ia perfectly round. That is a very l;u'ge st mo, and would require derricks to hoLst it. 2784. Vou called that loose rock ?— Yes. 278."). And over forty feet? — Over forty cubic feet was .solid rock, 278H. And under fourteen cubic feet? — Was earth. 27B7. So that any stone found in an earth cutting, under fourloon feet, would be called earth, and you so estinmted it in the contractor's work? — Yes; as well as 1 could. 27S8. Was there any change made in tiuit mode of estimating ? — Yos; 1 gave instructions that large stones of that kind should bo left in the cuttings until they were measured. That was ofyected to by the contractor's engineer. He claimed that it would be very costly, and that it would bo impossible for them to do it; that tho cuttings would be choked up, and that I should guess the percentage. 1 receivoi written instructions to do so. 278!). To e.<*timate them as you went along? — Y'es ; to estimate them as we went along, and see how much percentage of loose rock there was in the cuttings. As I could only go over it once or twice a month I considered it a very inaccurate way of estimating. However, I received written instructions to estimate the percentage. [ did that to the best of ray ability, but Mr. Tluttan and I differed on that point in calculating the quantities — that is, as to whether there could be possibly 100 cubic yards of loose rock in 100 cubic yards of excavation when the crevices were filled up with earth or sand. Wo ditf'erod on that, and Mr. Euttan claimed 40 per cent, over and above ray estimate. Mr. Marcus Smith then came out on the line, and ho orlered all small stones to "be piled into waggons, and the number Rwllway (nils ttnit'f i«>n-- Coiilmi'l Mo. 1.1, I'rilirlpii- nil which uil ni'H% iiii'iiMiiri'il roi'k toutxl III Ciirl h i-Ultlii|$s, I^i'thiltlon oCiooso rock. I>otiiiitioiior.soll(I nick. PctlnlUon of I'lirlh. In«lriict(ins. Marcus Smith's directions and thij unsatisfactory way they wer's carried out. // s C/j V. \ %% --^n^'' \^ CARRE 184 Ballway Con* Mirnctlnn — Cwiitmut No. i.j. q£> Htone-filled way^ons to be kept count of, and the number of earth-filied wagjrons. Mr. Ruttan got a number of boeks ready, which ho handol to his foreman, and they kept track of the loose rock. In coming over the line and 8eein«^ the men liftiriif these stones in their hands and loading them .without a doniek into the car, I would ask the foreman : " How do you return that to the contractor?" "Oh, that is loose rock, sir." Each one of those stones was from six inches to a foot in diameter, instead of being three teet in diameter, so that I saw there was no dependence to be plaeeil upon it. The work was all put into the hands of their own foromoii who were rated according to the amount of work the}' did, and it was to their advantage to return as much loose rock as possible, because it was n higher price than eai-th and more difficult to handle, and showoil a great deal of woi-k done in their cuttings. 1 considered it no way to estimate it. I also instructed my assistants to obtain the number of car load> from the contractors as far as possible and let me know then) so that J might see what they were doing. I believe that there were instructions Issued to the foremen not to give us those quantities, so that I was then left to go on my own resources and still go on estim- .ating percentages in accordance with Mr. Smith's new definition ot loose rock. 2790. What was his definition ? — It was that all small stones and boulders were considered loose rock, and that they were to be estim- ated in the pile that they would ; lake in embankment, whereas the specification says that everything shall be measured in excavation. 2791. I am asking what Mr. Marcus Smith directed? — He directed that they should be put into those cars, and that the number ot car loads should be ascertained. I went on ascertaining the percentage oi; that new definition as far as I could guess. 2792-3. Do I understand you that Mr. Smith's definition was tiiat al! stones of a certain size found in the earth embankment should be put together in a heap, and the cubic contents estimated as loose rock instead of earth ? — Yes. 2794. Did you follow that practice?— I did as far as I could. 2795. Did you follow it by estimating the percentage, or by meusui-- mg those quantities? — By estimating tlie percentage. The contractoi had refused to pile them. 2796. Could they not be measured in waggons, or loads, as well as iii piles? — Yes; if I had gone to the expense of putting a Government man on to keep track of them. hirv.''snmiutonei 2797. Do I understand you to say that Mr. Smith directed you t^ and boulders measure them in heaps or in quantities when they were put togetiior' — Ye?.. Marcus S-'jiiith's iifw (Icflnition of loose rock. Smith's instruc- tions. estimated as loose rock In a heap on the ground. 2798. How do you understand in what shape quantities they wore to be put together. Was it in heaps on the ground, or in the waggou?— Heaps on the ground. 2799. What was his instruction ? — That was his instruction ; if theie was to be so great a difference between ray estimate and the contractor's estimate that we could not come to an agreement about it. 2800. Was that done ? — No; it was not. ;# 185 CARR£ 2S01. Why was it not done? — The contractor preferred the other portion of the instructions — that is the keeping tracli of the car loads. 2802. Was that part of Mr. Smith's instructions ? — Yes. 2803. Then his instructions were not to have them piled in heaps on the ground ? — They were both his instructions ; you will tind them in his letter at page 1 18 of the Blue Book: " First Report of the Select Striding Committee on Public Accounts, 1879." 2801. This letter is directed to Mr. Eowan ? — Yes. 2805. Was a copy ever sent to you? — Yes ; a copy was sent to mo. 260(5. I understand those instructions to be to this effect : that if you and the contractor, or his engineer, differed so that no satisfactory an-angeraent could be made, then the only course was to separate the btones from the earth, leaving the stones in the cuttingn, piled so as to be measured at convenient intervals of time? — Yes. 2S07. You and the engineer, as I understand you, did differ, and there was no satisfactory arrangement arrived at ? — No ; there was not — at least I could not get from the contractor what his estimates were. 2808. Was there a satisfactory arrangement arrived at ? — No. 2809. Then were the stones left in the cuttings to bo piled ?— No, they were not; the contractor refused to do it. He said ho could not do it previously. 2810. So as to that matter you obeyed what you considered to be the substance of Mr. Smith's instructions ? — 1 went as close to it as Icoiihi. 2811. Was there any change made in that respect? — There was a large increase in the amount of loose rock estimates. [ was ordered to go back over my previous estimates and increase them, I did that with the contractors. I went over my previous estimates to the date of these instructions, and I made as satisfactory a return as I could with the contractor's engineer up to the end of September, 1878. 2812. Do I understand 3'ou that after the instructions of September 2()th, 1878, j-ou applied the same system to the previous work and iiieieased the estimates as if these instructions hul existed from the beginning ? — I did. 2813. Do you know how much you inci'cased the cost of the work, hy that estimate, going back before September, 1878? — Between 4,000 ;.ti(l 5,000 yards, as well as I could remember. 2814. Was this practice adhered to ps laid down in the itistructions It Se:.icmber, 1878? — It was adhered to, as 1 told you, up to the end (1 May, lb7n, when I received verbal insti-uctions from Mr. Kowan to go back and reduce from the very begirining, and to only return the i'loso rock quantities exactly in accordance with the specification. 2815. And that was what? — Stones only between fourteen and forty cubic feet. 1 was working backwards again, and reducing what 1 had increased. There were three different in.structions, and I was instructed to work it all back again. 2816. Then the last estimate made between the contractor and the (Government was on what basis, as to loose rock, because you say you had to rectify it? — I was instructed to do it and 1 partially rectified it. RMllway f^on- •truvtlou— Contract Ko. 15. Large Increaso i the Hinount of loose rook (>stiniate8 In C()nsed witness to made returns of looHC rock from the beginning in accordance with the speclttcatiouu.. Instructed to revise work done- under the dlft'ei-- ent orders, and to reduce. i?;' . CARRE 18({ ■•# Hallway Coii- structlon — 'Contract Ko. 1 5. Took off 4,(HI0 yards loose rock Increased by Smith's Instruc- tions. How the whole revision was ••••ai'rieil out. From hall' to three-quarters of »11 stones, l)etween fourteen and forty cuble feet removed by blasting or eriod between September, 1878 and May, 1879, includes a larger tsti. mate for the loose rock than ought to be included if the FliMiiin^- instructions are right? — Yes. 2821. So that if the Fleming instructions are right, something oiiirjii to comeoff their account as allowed them under theSmith instructions' — Yes ; and also off the Rowan period for the difference between tlio Fleming definition and the Rowan definition. 2822. Did you include in your returns, or estimates, as loose rock' rock which required to be dealt with by blasting and derricks ?— Cer- tainly, derricks or blasting were necessai-y in all casos to remove any of those stones that are, according to the specification, to class as loose rock. Men cannot get around to lift fourteen cubic feet of rook on a car without a derrick or blasting. 2823. As a matter of fact, were all the stones between fourteen culiii' feet and forty cubic feet removed by blasting and derrick? — No ; they were not. 2824. Was a large proportion of them so removed? — Yes. 2825. About what proportion ? — I could not give you un estimate. 2826. As much as one-half, do you think ? — Yes. 2827. As much as three-fourths, do you think ? — Xo. 2828. Somewhere between one-half and three-quarters? — 1 shoiill say BO. 2829. And how were the others removed ?— The others wero removed by crow-bars into the dump, and sometimes out.'r>ido of the dm p. 2830. And the quantities so removed, you think, would be some- where between one-quarter and one half of the whole ? — Yes. 2831. Did you so estimate them as loose rock because you helievei that they were within the meaning of the specification ?— These answers refer to stones and boulders, and not to loose rock in situ. 187 CARRE Rr>\van's inst.rtn- tioii-, iis to |iiosi> rock ami varili. BaiUvay Cuu- MtrUl-liOH — ('outract Tin. 35. 2S32. Did Mr. liowan, or Mr. Hmitli, limit you to any ])orcentai>o -when you were eHtimating the loone rook in the cuitinij.s? — Mr, Smith riaVH it seldom exceeds (10 per cent. 2833. I am asking whether you were limited toany pei-centage? — No, I was not limited. 1 do not remember that tliei'e wa-. any percentage, hut I hail better put in this letter of Mr. Howan's on the subject. It is the best answer I can give to that to give the i)istructions 1 received. (Kxhibit 92='=.) '' .sv,. Not,- h.^ow. 2834. Did you, yourself, limit the percentage of loose rock rolui ns ill the cuttings? — L did. i must limit it in each case to a cert;iin aQ10UI:t. 2835. Did you? — T did. In each case I limited it to the percentage 1 allowed, but I did not consider it right to return over a coi'tain per- centage. 233(». What was that percentage ? — Sixty-five per cent. 2837. No matter how much was there? — I said it was impossible that there 'Ould be more than 65 pei- cent. ; that the remainder must ho Fand. 2838. Do you mean that no matter how close those boulders were tofjelher you would never estimate over 65 j)er cent, ol" the whole bulk? — In some cases 1 did under Mr. Smith's instructions. I know the very tirst Cfwc I gave 90 per cent, before I began to think the matter out and consider it. 283!.'. But after you considere:,' over a certain percentage? — I wrote a report to Mr. liowan, stating that it would be impossible that there could be more, 2840. I am asking whether you did it ? — 1 did estima'e as high as 1.} per cent., and up to 90 per cent, on one occasion. 2841. What was your general piinciple as to the percentage to whicli you would limit the whole amount?— Sixty five per cent.; that is, up 10 the time on which I received the letter from Mr. Howan, the 22nd of July, 187S. I wrote a report on the matter then in answer to the report of Mr. Ruttan, whicli claimed 100 per cent, as the maximum. 2842. Did you not give written instructions to your a.ssistunts not to return more than 65 per cent. ? — Yes; at one time I did. I said that w;w the maximum that could be. 2843. Was that adhered to afterwaids ? — No; it was not. Witness limited l)erci'rilai;e of loose rock in yficli case tixins? •>■"> per cent, as t lie nistxlniuni lie woulil alKiw. In sr>im! ciiscs uniJer Marcus SniiMi'.s insti-iic- tions ijfavc more ; iti one cHse 'H) per cent. #.• , t NoTK— * fn Rowan's letter which is dated Winnipeg, 22nci -ruly, 1878, Carre is „ iirected to " Decide in all cases what proportion to the bejt of your judgment of a ciittiQi; is loose rock and what claj, sand, he, as defmed by the specificatioa. Havitig decided this point, the area thus arrived at is to be returned under the head to which it beloD((s, If half of a cutting contaiiini; IwO cubic yards is loose rock and the other halfsatid and clay, you return the latter at earth prices and the rcui tinder as luoc'V rock • • I cainot say what the Govemin^nt intend doing in refereice to the niakini; the banks solid and doing aw,iy with all trestles. I reported s )me time ag > ii faruur of thi.s course. .Ur. Fleming also recommended the same ; bat I have as yet received no instructions on the subject. In the meantime, 1 would say it is not desira- ble to make borrowing-pits in which the loosi rock would form anything but a very imall propjrtion indeed of the amount of material to be borrowed "iherefrom '' Tills letter endorsed by Carre : " Detiaitioa of loose rock — not to lay out borrcw- I fits where loose rock would be claimed." wan'.s Ii'lte: CArtRE 188 'ay t'Oii •traftion— Coiilrnct Ao. 15. i.84i. Did you change your mind on the subject ?^ — No; but instructions. «oi 2845. Was it adhered to up to the time of the Fleming instructions? — It was adhered to up to the 22nd ot July, 1878. 2846. That was before the Smith instructions? — Yes. Wrotnto Smith 2847. Did you ever consider the Fubjcct in reference to this coiitrart j'erm'anentbrkige of Using, in some places, permanent bridges over the water stretches? 7!w**'"""^"^^''"' — ^ *^'^ ' *''"^ ^ wrote to Mr. Smith recommending one at Lake Decep tion, crossing about station 792 or 793. The embankment there will bo over seventy-five feet in height on a bad bottom, and expensive work ti; got protection walls in . I proposed that as we could ifet rock foundalion at Avater level on both sides that they should put a 200 or 210 feet spai, over it. 2848. Would that bo a saving? — I think so. 1 had no data to :,^o (ii; as to what bridge they would put on. Mr. Smith was examining ii with a view to viaducts, and I gave him some information after that. CHARLES MACKENZIE. I^ives at Sarnia whore he carries on alone the huslness of a hardware iiverchaiit. Was in fiartnor- hliifi with In;' late l)rother John Mackenzie Ironi IKIT until liis ileatli, 1877. Interest earlof the pr;>'ts on this contrnt my interests, as I looked forward to that beinif my futnie business in Montreal, to withdraw entirely fcom the Hirn. His reply to that was simply that I must use my own judgment. Thai is all the conversution, communication or otherwise, that I have ever had with Mr. Alexander Mackenzie with regard to steel rails, and that is my whole connection with it from first to last. Up to the present moment I am not a benefiUer, except a loser by it in any way ; a \ohw in this respect: I abandoned that business, though I had intended t'^ make it the business of ni}' life and establish myself in .Montreal. 2665. About how long had you been connected with this firm before the contract for the steel rails ? — It was in 1872 that I made thai arrangement, and the contract for steel rails was about a year or twi> afterwards. 28t)t>. Do you think between two and three years would be about the time ? — I think so ; that wili establish the date absolutely (pointing- to a Blue Book), and, of course, I can certify it afterwards if iiecessiii}. It must have been in the yeixv 1875. 2S()7. Do you think that Cooper & Fairman \vei"e interested in the contract which was spoken of as having been made with Guest i^ Co? — I do not know. (Jenernl condi- tions ()r special partnership. 28G8. Or with the Ebbw Vale Steel & Iron Co. ?— I know nothing at all of it. [ may state, further, that 1 absolutely avoided all knovvledgi; or conversation in regard to their businoss from that day to this. 2869. Do you mean before this transaction with the Government ?- fjnmediately after my dissolution with the partnership. 2870. Before your dissolution did you avoid all convei-sation with Cooper & Fairman with regard to steel rails ? — Immediately after I avoided it. 2871. But before your dissolution did you avoid conversation with them in reference to steel rails ? — I never had any conversation with them. I could not have conversation about them, because I did not know of it. 2872. Befoi-e the dissolution were you made awai'e that they were interested in any contract with the Government in the name of Giu'st tt Co., or any other name ? — No. 2873. You say you were a special partner ? — Yes. 2874. Upon what general conditions? — The general conditions of special partnership are these: The special partner is only liable for the amount of his capital ; and the special partner, under the law, as I understand it, is not allowed to enter into the general management of 191 CHAS. MACKENZIE •the it ot the business, otherwise ho would become liable for all the debts of the lartnership. The terms, if 1 recollect lightly, as to the division ol iiiotits, was that the profits should le equally divided. 2875. Then do you understand 3-our partnership to be on this con li- •jon with them : that you should put in $15,000, and should got one- ;hir(l of the profits, and bear one-third of the losses for the capital you lilt in? — Yes; that was my understanding. 287li. Was there any writing on it ? — There was a general partner- siiip paper drawn up. 1 have not got a cojiy, and I do not think I ever Ntfcl RnlU. I'rntlts wore to !»• emially (lIvMi'.l. lillU, 2877. Then if all the capital of the partnership was lost, and further liabilities existed, you would be free from any liability on account of •Jiose?— No; a special partner is not liable any further than his cap- ital, 2878. I am not speakinir about the general law, but about the iiirangement ? — The arrangement was not different from that. 2879. So that in putting in your $15,000 you ran no risk of losing more than that ? — No. 2SS0. And if profits were made you should have the profits to the i extent of one-third ? — Yes. 2881. Before the contracts were mswle between your firm and the hiovernment, had they been in the habit of sharing profits with you? -No; there were no prohis. 2882. "Why not? — The business had not made any pi-ofits up to that I time. They were a new firm, and had been extending their business. 2883. Had thei"e ever been an investigation of the affairs of the firm ? [-Not to my knowledge. 2884. Had you never been informed by your pai'tnors a.s to the state loi the business? — They informed me in a general way that the business Ibi been in sevei-al instances profitable, but in other instances that ItliC}' had lost. The general statement was that they had not lost any jmoney, but they had not made any money. 2885. Besides informing you that they had not made any money, Ithey might have infoi'med you that they had lost? — I think one year Ithey t-aid thoy had lost, but the amount I cannot say. They lost during lone year, I can recollect very well. 288G. How much was the loss ? — I cannot i-emember, but I i-emember jveiy well that one year they mentioned that there was a loss. 2887. Was it a large loss in pi-oportion to capital ? — No. 2888. What was your understanding of the whole available capital bl the firm at the time you entered the partnership? — Thei'e was my 115,000, and then Mr. Fairman put in several thousand dollars. 2889. More than you ? — No; less than I did. 2890. How much le.ss, do you think? — Well, now, 1 cannot say, but Utiikes me it must have been in the vicinity of $7,000 or $10,000. 2891. What did Mr. Cooper put in? — There was an arrangement Ne with a Scotch tirm who gave them a large credit, but the cspital Ran no risk of losing more thfuv »1.',,0()(), and If proiHs wore realized would share one-tliiril. Previous to contract with Government there were iu> pro (U.S. Had been Inform- ed only fteneral li- as to the state ot ihe buslnes.s. Available capital of firm when witness joined it. * ' I I CHAS. MACKENZIE ItVJ Steel Ralls. SumetliiiiK iiiKlcr .■»i'),0«i» would represent aciual <-aMh capital of'the Arm. Has neithor ))aper8 or books or IcUers to show wliat losses of linn were. .•OU lifdl 5«aw no balance jiheet ; trusted lo the word of his I artners ; receiv- ed Impression that capital was impaired to the t'Xtent of one- lialf. Never paid any jmoneyyet. Notes yet In his posses- sion. that Mr. Fuirmun and I put in — atid I tliinU Mr. Cooper liad hoiuo 81, -Vm) or $2,000 — was all Iho cash capital, as far as 1 am aware of. 2892. So that somothinj^ under $2.'i,000 would represent the actual cash capital of the whole firm ? — I think so. 2893. Any transactions larger than that would bo upon the basi^ if credit ?— Yes. 2894. What was the last information that you got from your tirni, before you heard of those tenders, as to the state of the firm's utfair-i generally? — Well, I could not state that positively. 1 think I must have been in Montreal the year previous, and had often seen them, i was usually in Montreal once or twice a year, n )t more than that. 2895. T am asking you what your information was? — My inlbrmi- tion as I said before, was simply ot that character, that they had maJ,' losses; but I cannot state to you what thoia losses were. That oai, bo easily found out. 2896. 1 suppose you have papers or books that would show it ?— Xo. 2897. I suppo.so you have letters from them on that subject? — No; I have no letters upon that subject that 1 recollect of. 2898. Was the impression derived from the^ui|<)rma,tloii y< that the capital was gone? — No; but that it was u^w&t 28 9. To what extent? — Severa' thousand dollars. 2900. "Several thousand dollars" is very vague? — I did not tako that active interest that I shouM have done, because I luid a very laivo amount of confidence in the parties engaged in the bnsiness, 2901. That was in the beginning?— Yes ; for two years. 2902. Do you mean that at the last time you got any inforniutiiir. fi-om your partners as to the affairs of the firm, that you did tiiii talu' sufficient interest in them as to get Ji positive impression us to tlio |)im- portion of the capital ihat was impaired ? — No; I would not say that: but I had not seen u balance-sheet. 290i]. ^'ou trusted to their word? — Yes. 2004. What impression did you get from that ? — That tiie capital was impaired. 2905. To what extent?— Certainly one-half at that time. 2906. Wap it more than one-half?— No; I do not think it was. H;i] 1 been examined in Ontario 1 could have got all the infoi'mation. 2907. Assuming thit it was to the extent of one-half and you liaJ then decided to go out of the partnership ; upon that basis how math of 3'our capital could j'ou withdraw? -Perhaps you would allow me i to state that I have never been paid my money yet. I have tlio.«e I notes in my possession yet unpaid. 2908. That does not afl'ect the question at all. lam asking you, I according to your understanding of the terms upon which you \fM\ partners, and having an impression that one-half the capital was gone, when you dissolved how much of your capital ought you to have taken I out ? — I could not say that ono-ha f of the capital was gone at the tiina j I withdrew, but at one time during the co-partnership it was. 193 CHA8. MACKENZIE Ntecl RaII«. 2909. Did you not understand my question to have relation to the Cannot Hay last iast date of the information of the partnership affaii'8 ? — Well, you see "/,o,'," r^'aniuiK" that in whore I am very much astray. I cannot say the last date of the JK?r'^*'"A'''P- Information ab9Ut partnership affairs. 1 think that when I dissolved he tMssoivpd^io ^ with thom I had perfect faith in their solvency then. inte'ioiVency. 2910. You mean at the actual date of the dissolution ? — Yes. 2011. But that was after the tender for the rails ? — Yes. 2912. I am not speaking of the state of their atfairs after they had the advantage of this contract ?— No ; they had not delivered any rails at all. all. 2913. But they had the advantage of the Government promise? — en. Butllionthoy had u(l vantage of aovernraeui promise. Witness's Im prfis- slon that the year prior to steel rall*i contract was* thr their affairs, nor did they offiT it. YeH 2914. I am trying to find out from you now, at the last date of the inibrmation from which you received any impression from your part- ners as to the amount of capital loft available to the firm, and before the tender for the rails, what was your impression about the standing of the firm? — I think I understand you now. At one time they had told rae the capital was impaired, and afterwards they had done a great (leal better; but my impression the last time that I had seen them — that must have been, of course, the year previous to their contract for the rails — was that they were going to got on all right, that they were making money; and when I dissolved with them I did not ask for a statement of their affairs, neither did they offer it. 291.5. At the time you dissolved ?— At the time they dissolved; hut my impression was at that time that they were in a far better po:- Improved. 2917. Did you remember that awhile ago when I asked you the Expianutioa of previous question on that subject? — I was a little confused as to the answers.^ Irift of your question. My statement is this now that I thoroughly unilcrstand you : that on several occasions they had told me that they had lof^t money. Vou asked me — " to what extent? " I told you that my impression was, to the extent of several thousand dollars. 1 hey had afterwards recuperated, and my impression was then that they were certainly better off than they had been before they had lost money. 2918. Did they state to you about the proportion of the capital that they had lost before the tenders? — They must have stated it to me in iigenci-al way, but I did not get the figures. It might have been from $7,000 to $8,000. 2919. That was less than half ?— Yes. 2920. Was it, in fact, impaired to the extent of less than one-half? — I Had improHsion [ i-hould say I had the impression that it was about from $7,000 to Im'lJalmrfrom'*^ I §10,000. r *7,0(M) to $10,000. . 2921. Do you say it was one-half ? — I ewi recollect those figures. 2922. I am asking you now not for exact figures, but for the impres- [«ion made on your mind? — The impression on my mind was that the capital was impaired, but to what extent I could not say. Their im- 13 <• > i CHAS. MACKENZIE 104 Nt<«-i nailM. Altli'xiuli capital (>r th)' firm rnaltrluliy iiii- jpiilrfil, fliil not tliink rol\r\'\n with lilN own capital Intact a notnl tran>i- Hctidll. !Notc.s all over due. liocaiitie firm iinuhle t(i pay. When he wlth- ilrew his capital lie would huvo been more than Willing to remain Ji hu-.lness. Thinks it would have been better ior him not to have wittidrawn hib capital not- -withstanding that the firm had lost money and have been unable to pay the notes. pioHsion was, it was impiiired, scrioiisl}' itiipaircJ, hut (o whiit extent, wLetlici" il wjis oiic-lialf, ov lljioc-luiirllis, I cMilil nut Hay. 2{)23. WiiM it tho whole? — I nm certain it van n' i the whole, but my improHrtion is that it was iindei" iialf. 2924. llal you tho impression that if tho capital had been impjuii',! hy these business inon, in whom you lia 1 couHderico, that it would lieu ^'ood transtiction t ) ^'et out of tho puitiiei>hip with tho wIkjIc oi your capital ? — 1 had not, 2925. You thouf^ht that tho hope of future llU^inoss would ho hcttii than the capital which you took out? — I certainly had tho hope, jnnl 1 was satisfied that the business would bo succoflsful. 2.»2G. Do you mean that you thought you couM manage tho busines?; better than they did ? — No ; but I wassatisliod that, with my assistiince, if I had gone down there, I could have niado it my business with thorn; J bail no lear for the businens at all. V'ou will permit that to go on evidence, that since I have withdi-awn my cupilal from tho ]>artnoi>hip I have still tho thi'co notes of Cooper <.^ Kaifinan which 1 toi;k ioi' mv capital. 2927. Woi-e they made ^Kiyablo at dates later than this? — No; Uaj are all ovei'duo. 2928. Why have they not l>eor^ paiil ? — I suppose for the simple rea.sou that they are not able to pay. Ot course it iiiipairctl ttieir business withdrawing my capital. 2929. You think the business has still been so poor that they have tiDt boon able to pay those riotes? — 1 think that thoy have had a great doiil of di.-aitors. Tho ^ai4«*H-r trade of Montreal has boon in tioiiblo fur some years, and 1 believe that thoy have come thi'ough it with a ^'ivat deal of ditficulty. 29150. Is it your impi'ossion now that if you had remained in tlit business you would liavo done better than by withdi-awing all voiir capital ?- J could not say that now. At that time 1 would liavo been pei'toctly willing to remain in tho busino.ss — more than willing. 2931. Do I understand you to say tiiat at tho time of your witli- di'awal you thought that it was a pecuniary disadvantage to go out of tho firm ? — Not a pecuniary disadvantage, but a di.sadvautago us to raj 1 prospocLs. 2932. Fi'om n pecuniary point of view ?— Well, I suppose, ultimately from a vocuniary point of view. As I said before it was always mv I desire lo establish myself in Montreal, and 1 took that means of doinj,' it. 2933. Do you mean to say that you have made money there?— Mjj idea altogether was that if I had remained in that business I would have! made it a success. It could have been made a success I believe, but) gtill disaster might have come. 2934. Are j'ou of the same opinion still, that it was not a good transl action for you to have got out of tho firm with all your capital ?-Ij think it would have been far better had I remained in it. 2935. Notwithstanding the fact that the firm lost money and liave^ been unable to pay their debts? — They might have been able to] ther debts. -!'45. At al tins 815,000 be lirm was when — i'«« ; J never -'^iO. Vras it 2947. Doyo, iif'tions betweei Sf'JS. In the expressed your amounts, or pn remember that ^^iw a little angr 'n Toronto, I re determination t tonti-acts or am< 29^0. Was th ; 'I'an.saetion by w j ilje firm had not -Nothing whatevi 2950. Did vou 'H'et?-Hepro V 1!I5 CHAS. MACKENZIE S't-tl HailH. 2!»,'ju received any interest on those notes? — Ves ; they intcifsi hasiieon have paid interest. i'Sc"r""'" 2042. Do you own them still ? — I do not. I only own oneduilf ; the odicr half belongs to the e-^tato of my brother John. V t 204"^. Is the interest or income derived from this ca])i(til at the ordinaty rate of interest ? — Seven per Cunt. 2044. Were the notes secured in any way?— No; they were not >ccure(l. 2045. At all events, I understand you to say that the tirst time that this 815, UUO began to bear you an}'^ fruit after you had put it into the tiriii was when you had retired from it on the basis you have described ? —Yes ; J never received anything from it until then. 2040. Was it in money that you put in the $15,000 ? — Yes. 2947. Doj'ouknow in round numbers the amount of those trans- iKlions between Cooper & Fairman and the Government ? — T do not. 2048. In the conversations between you and Mr. Cooper, when you expressed your wish to withdraw, was there no discussion as to the amounts, or probable results of those transactions ? — No ; I do not remember that there was. I have no recollection of that at all. Ho wivs a little angry with me thatl had resolved to leave the partnership. In Toronto, I remember his telling me he was angry with me for my determination to leave, but I have no recollection of discussing the eontraets or amounts. I ju.it left it. 2940. Was there nothing said between you as to the equity of the transaction by which you should withdraw your whole capital, although the firm had not been able to pay its debts or make any money ? — Nothing whatever. 2950. Did you propose, or did he propose, the amount that you were ; to get ?— He proposed to give me thi ee $5,000 notes. Tho *>1.'>,000 never Iporc any Inilt until It was n^tiroU from the Urin. Does not know iitumt tlii'iimuiint of the transac- tions between Cooper i^t Kuirman and the Oovern- nient. Nor V hen telling {,'ooper h-. would withdraw did they discuss them or their probable results. Nothini; said as to equity of traDHuctlon. \f , c )• ■■ * .... CHAS. MACKENZIE 196 Mtrel Balls. Witness Insl.ited on retiring, and, elthor at that or someothor Inter- view, they proposed to give hlrn three notes for $5,(XK) each. 2951. Did you not suggest yourself that the withdrawal of your capital first put in should be one of the conditions of retiring from tlu' business ? — I do not think I suggested that, but I insisted on rotirinir and either at that interview, or some other, they propose 1 to give mo three notes of $5,000 each. 2952. 2953. But the gross amount of capital was proposed ? — Yes. It was not necessary that they should propose three notes ?— No discussion as to amount of money witnes.s was to ret ire from tlie biiRinesH. Has avoldctl knowledge regarding the business since. Never had any connection M'illi a tioverniiicnt contract. KiiriiiNliiu); Niipplles. Bepeatedly received orders from H. Suther- land for goods to go to North- West, On other occa- sions supplied Government engineers with goods. Never liked this, and sometimes refused to sell. No. 2954. Was there ever any discussion as to the amount that should go to you on your retiring ? — No discussion at all. 2955. Was the discussion simply as to whether you would retire or not ?— Yes. 2956. And was there no discussion upon the terms ? — No ; there was not a moment's discu.ssion on that. 2957. Have you ever been informed whether the affairs of that part nership were improved by this transaction with the Government?— I have not. I may say here that I avoided any intimacy with the biisine>j from that day to this. 2958. Did you go to Montreal to accomplish the actual dissolution of partnership ? — Yes. 2959. Were there papers drawn up between you and the other members at the time? — Yes ; and signed. 29G0. Had your firm any transactions with the Government Ijefbie that, connected with the Pacific Eailway ? — Allow me to say, in genoral terras, that at no time in the past or now, in any way, directly u: indirectly, near or remote, have I ever had any connection whatever with any individual or contract in connection with the Government. 1 have had no connection whatever in any shape or form, directly or indirectly, with any Government contract. 2961. Do you moan that you have not reaped any advantaf,'o fi'om any of the transactions connected with the Pacific Eailway? — Fioraro contract whatever. 2962. I am not speaking of contracts ? — I have had no bonetit what- ever from any bargain or sale of any kind whatever. I have not been mixed up in it in any sha])e or form. 2963. Your business is a hardware business is it no, ? — Yes. 2964. Do you know whether any supplies were furnished from your establishment to parties who went out to survey the country ?— Yes: but no contract. 9965. I said transactions ? — The only Government supplies, to my \r owlodge, that I ever sold was that repeatedly Mr. Hugh Sutherland sent me orders for goods to go to the North-West. I filled those order' at several dift'orent times, and on other occasions engineers of Gov- ernment steamboats have called upon me to supply them with goods. I never liked it, and on several occasions refused absolutely to sell. 1 refused by letter at one time to the late engineer of the Government. The extent of goods which I have sold in that way, from first to last. I would amount, in all, in the vicinity of from $1,000 to $2,000. That is the whole extent of my sales to any parties connected j with the Government and that was in small sums. 197 CHAS MACKENZIE 2966. Do you know who furnished supplies to surveying parties, as jj ,.ule — I mean supplies of hardware ? — I do not. 2967. Do you know tlirough whom orders were given for such supplies ? — For surveying parties ? 2968. Yes? — I do not know. I have no recollection at all of selling to any one for the Government in connection with the surveys, except to Hugh Sutherland. 2969. Did Mr. Nixon ever order anything from you ? — No ; I do not know the man, and never had any communication with him. 2970. Where do j^ou think Mr. Sutherland was stationed at the time you speak of? — I think it was the time he first went up. I think he must have been going to Battlefoid. 2971. Was he engaged at surveys? — No; I understand that he went up there and was engaged on buildings for the Mounted Police or something of that kind. 2972. You have spoken of furnishing not more than $2,000 worth of iroodB to the Government? — I do not think it was more than that. 2973. Well about $2,000 to persons who ordered on behalf of the Government? — Yes; by Hugh Sutherland. 297-t. And to engineers ? — Occasionally they have asked me to supply ihera and I refused. I did not like the business at all. 2975. Has your business been benefitted by supplies given to con- tractors? — I do not think so. I have sold a good deal to contractors, but on the whole the protit was very limited, and 1 have made losses by it. 2976. Do you moan that you have made loss by not being paid ? — Yes. 2977. If all had been paid for which was sold to contractors would the result have been very dirt'e rent? — No; the result would not have been very different for the simple reason that the business was very limited. I was very handy at Sarnia for sending goods up. I keep a very :;iir stock, but as a rule the contractors did not buy from me. 2978. Do you remember to what point those si/pplies went that you did sell to contractors? — To Thunder Bay. 2979. To what contractors? — I sold a limited amount to Sifton & Ward, but only at the tiist out-go. They bought everything them- selves, but not from me, only to a limited extent, I have sold some little to Purcell & Ilyan, but a very limited amount ; ihey have done nil their buying below. These, I think, were the only two contractors that I sold to up there. 29S0, Those were the two contractors near Thunder Bay ?- Yes. 2981. What do you thiiik was the amount of your sales to those two contractors? — During tho whole years that ihey were in business? 2982. Up to now ? — I would like to be particular about that. 2983. I do not wish j'ou to bo particular; say in round numbers ? — I would much rather look at ray books and give it to you particularly, but my impression is that from first to last 1 never sold them more than 1110,00.) or $12,000 worth. I now sell to contractors occasionally. 1 Itliinkl sell to contractors as much now as I ever did. FuriiUhinK N-applle*. His business not henctlttcd by selling siippiles to coulractors. As .a rule the e()ntraotors did not l)iiy fioni liini. The whole amount f>( bis sftles to si f ton it Wftrd and Puhm^II & Rvan, not more than $12,tM)U. CHAS. MACKENZIE 198 FuniUliliig 8ui>pllc»« tioii!>i. Intorostt'd In liiiuls 111 Man- il()))a. !mr«l Kails. Cooperit P'iiirrraii when spcaklnj^ol' losses (11(1 not state anKnuits. Reasons why he avoided 'retllnK knowledge re- specting the tlrni after steel rails tender. Remembers neither dale of dissolution nor when It appeared In Gazette. 2984. As far as you can recollect now, you think all your ,sale-<, eillior to the Government direct or to contractors would amount to less than 812,000? — I should say it might amount to anywhere from $10,000 to 815,000 during the whole" of the years that I have heun doing business. It is a very small portion of my business you miisi recollect. 2985. Are you interested in lands in this section of the country?— Ves ; 1 Jini interested to the extent of— 1 do not know how many acres, 1 have bought .several half-breed claims here within the hist year, aiid 1 own within the Province of Manitoba now,, f think, about 2,(J()(i acres, ditterent lots, at various prices. 298(5. Is there any particular locality in which jou are lartjelv interested ? — No; the lots are dotted over the country, here and tlieri-, 2987. Were you, at any time, interested in any particular locality ?— No. 2988. Ifad you bought lands north of Lake Manitoba at any time .'— No; I have never owned any lands here until the last six or eii,dii months. 2989. Before that you were not interested in any at all ? — No; bet i;c that I w IS not interested in any way, directly or indirectly, in laiuU in Manitoba. 2990. Do you consider that between the time you tirst learned timi Cooper (t Fairman had made heavy losses and your letircinenl, \ik] learned from them that their business had improved ? — Yes. 2991. Did they tell you in what respect it had improve J? — They did not tell me. 2992. When they told you that they had made losses at ditl'oion' times, did they state, as far as you remember, any amounts? — Xo; 1 cannot lemember. 2993. You say that you have avoided getting any knowledge of tlio business ot the firm since the tendering for those rails ?—\'e.->. 2994. Why did you avoid it?— 1 avoided it from the simple dLslike I had for any matters connected with the rails. 1 avoided conver.-iii,' with them, because I had very little opportunity of conversing witii them. I nevei- asked them what they had made, or anything connectod with it. It was a subject 1 disliked exceedingly. 2995. You say you are not able to define the date of dissolution ; it i^ hardly likely then you could tell how long after that it apj)eared in tin; Gazette ? — 1 could not tell this. I have a perfect recollection tlia" theie was a great paper controversy in the newspapers about it. It was denied that the dissolution had ever been made because it was not registered. I received from the lawyer who drew up the papersi ;i letter saying to me that ho was very sorry that the papers hiid no! boon registoiod and that it was all his fiault. 2996. You have brought in the name of Mr. Mackenzie, the ex-Primo Minisior, in pai't of your evidence, of your own accord, and stated tliiit you never had any communication with him on the subject of tho-e tenders ? — Yes. 295^1. Can you remember that you ever had any communication with anybody else, his secretaiy for instance, or anybody else whowouHl 3005. Was tl 3007. Would 199 CHAS. MACKENZIE Nteel KalU. i^now anything about the transaction ? — No ; T stated that T had no comraunication with him directly or in ■' i Before mcetins; ' 3040. Was it after the mecti?- with Mr. Cooper, in Toronto, or cooper at Tonmto • brother you would retire from the firm ? Mackenzie'^he'^' lietbre, that you had told your — Ik'fore meeting him. 3041. Then the first person of those two to whom you communicated the fact of your intended retirement was to your brother? — Yes; t think before I saw Mr. Cooper I told Mr. Alex. Mackenzie I would letire. 30J2. What was your object in telling him ? — It was that a man will naturally communicate with his brother about such things. 3043. Was it a general habit of yours to communicate with your brother about your attairs ? — No ; but this was a matter that I thought art'ected him. 3044. How did you think it affected him ? — I thought it might affect him politically. 3045. Was ho of the same opinion? — He never expressed it. 3046. Did you go to him or did be come to you ? — I think he visited his family or his friends at Sarnia about that time. His former home was in Sarnia, but he was then living at Ottawa. would retire from firm. OHAS. MACKENZIE 202 lllii ^teel RaiU. 3047. I think I understood you to say that you decided to go out of the partnership, not because it was a good transaction in a pecunituy sense — you considering it a losing one — but you decided to go out bocaut^o it might att'oct your brother politically ? — I resolved to go out of ii because I disliked the whole transaction, politically speaking. 3048. Did you think at the time it was not a good pecuniai-y transiu;- lion to you ? — 1 do not know. I regret going out of the firm, 3049. I understood you to say that you thought it was a bad traii-i. action, so far as the jjocuniury t'eatuies were concerned? — Yos; f regretted it exceedingly. 3050. Was Mr. Cooper of the same opinion ? — L cannot say that. 3051. Did he not tell you that it was a \evy bad ti'unsaction foi" him? Did ho not say that it was very hard of you to go out?— Certainly. 3052. I)id he not expi-ess to you whether ii was a good transactii)ii as far as he was concerned? — He expressed his regret that L shoiiid leave the firm. 305 i. And did iio not say that it was a bad thing f )r him, for you tn go out ? — lie certainly expres^ed his regret that J should go out Ih^'uhm) my name was some strength to the partnership. •Cooper said It was 3054. Ditl ho not express the idea that it was a bad transaction ji/p andK'airinantiiat the firm, you going out? — Yes; as 1 said "before, he said it oeitaiiiiv witness should was not fair to tlum to retire, because it would weaken their credii— it might, or would, weaken their credit, the withdrawal of my name. 3055. Did he say it would weaken the establishment to have ym take out so much capital ? — I have no recollection of his saying thut it would weaken them, but the taking out of that much capital woiiM weaken any business. I did not take it in cash. 3056. I understand tliat, upon the whole, Mr. Cooper thoiiglii thut it was a bad transaction for them that j'ou should go out, and yoii thought it a bad transaction to go out? — I do not know that I consi- dered it a bad transi;ction to go out ; and 1 do not know that it weakciio I them. 3057. Do [ understand you that if you thought it a good trau'^actioii to remain in the firm at that time, it was not on account of their pro- Cooper, Fainnan sent standing but in the hope of future business? — Yes; I had gieiit ^' hopes that in the future, with my assistance, we coidd build up a hirgi.! business in Montreal. 30.o8. Did that depend on yo;ir going down to Montreal ? — I was then in hopes that I would go to Montreal and give my assistance in buikliiin up the business. 3059. Do I understand that the prospectof the success of the business depended upon your conducting it?— No. 3060. Did you not say that the hope of your life was to be able to g* to Montreal and establish the business ofj'our life there ? — Y^es. 3061. And that one feature in the building up of that business was, going there yourself? — Yes. 3062. How could you go to Montreal to take an active part in the business as a special partner?— H I went it would bo as a genera! Had great liopes of the In tu re business of 203 CHAS. MACKENZIE Mtrvl Ball*. Mi'tncv. If I liad gone to Montreal il wouM have chanirod llio pai-t- nersliip un(ioubte(Jly. ?0t!3. Do you know whether it is necessary in a special parlnorwhip sppcuii tmrtnor- (hat time should bo nanood — that it should be for a tixed period? — j siiip iimi ^im.^ (oulil not say ; probably it was in that document. 30(j4:. If it were so how could It be ]>os8ible that you could go at your own option, whenever you liked, and change the character of your "partnershij)? — I supposed I could have gone and dissolved the parinei'- :-!iip by mutual consent, or waited until the expiry of the partnership. 30(15. Do you know if there was a time mentioned for its expiry ? — ■ I do not know, in ail those partnerships there must be a time men- tioned I suppose. 30(5(3. Then at the time that you decided to take out your capital ami end the partnersliip, you thought that it was not a good transac- tion for you, because you might atterwards decide to go to Montreal' and become a general partner, and that then the business of the firm would improve ; that that improvement wouM be better than to take out your capital at the time. Is that the substance of your theory ? — Voii i»ut the words into my mouth. Of course my idea was that when I withdiew I regretted it, because I believe, if I remained in that tirm, 1 would have ultimately gone to Montreal, and with my assistance we would have built up a large and lucrative business. 30(j7. Then was the hope of this future what you lost? — Yes. 30(!8. At that time you thought that was more available than the 815,000?— I certainly did. 30f)9. Are the notes that you hold the original notes ? — Vus ; they Notes iieWi: are the original notes. on^'inai nutus. 3070. Do you remember about their. dates? —About the date of the lissolution— it must have been in 1875. 3071. 1 8uppo:^o that copies of those articles of dissolution can be luinished at tome future time ? — Yes. 3072. I think I understood you to say that you were not aware at Ni.tawareof his the time that they wei'c tendering for rails until after the matter was "li'Vitruiuu" published ? — !No. matter i)ul)Usl)e- »tru«-lloii— <'oiitravt No. 1.5. WHITEHEAD. Charles Whitehead, sworn and cxtminel: By the Chairman : — 3075. Where do you live?— In Winnipeg. pKnce^May.'" 307(5. How long have you lived in Winnipeg ? — I have been living ^*^"' in the city since last May. 3077. Where did you live before that?— On contract 15. r.iveS on contract •^ 1>, from June, 307vS. How long did you live thro ? — From June, 1S77. is;- to May, 1880. O. WHITEHEAD 204 Ballway Con* Mtrnctlon— Cou tract No. 16. General charge of contract 15 for contractor. W'ns not In Canada when contract taken. Rutinn employed hy Whitehead before witness went on work. BifHculties be- tween fonlractors and Governinent tnf^lncer. Fellowcs refused information, the want of which retarded Ruttan. 3079. In what way were you connected with the contractors \n business matters? — I had general charge of the work on contract 15. 3080. Do you remember about what time the contractor first went there ? — I do not know ; I did not go there until June. 3081. Had your father been there before that ? — Yes. 3082. Had you been in any way connected with his business in previous contracts on the road ? — No. 3083. You took no part in the management of them? — Previous lo 1877? 3084. I mean previous to 1877 ? — No. 3085. Had he done any work on the I'oad previous to that?~f believe he graded the Pembina Branch, south. 3086. You were not on that work ? — No. 3087. Do you generally take any part in the management of voui father's business atlairs? — As a rule I do. 3088. Did you take any part in the obtaining of the contracts on hi- behalf? — No; 1 was not in Canada at the time the contract was taken? 3089. Then your first connection with any of the work of the Canadian Pacific Railway was about June, 1877 ? — Yes. 3090. And that was on the work where the line is being built?— No; I commenced first by taking a sub-contract from him here af St. Boniface for grading. 3091. Had Mr. Ruttan been engaged by your father before you went on contract 15 ? — Yes; he was there some months previous to mv going there. 3092. Who was taking charge of the Government interests on that section ? — Mr. Carre was the Government engineer. 3093. Were there any difficulties between you and the contractor on the one side, and any person on behalf of the Government, about the time that you Avent there? — There was some little ditficulty with Mr. Carre and Mr. Ruttan when I went there. 3094. Do you know what it was about ? — He (Mr. Ruf tan) eom])lainei! that he could not get the bench marks for the cross-t*• marks. 3099. Had that the effect of delaying you und your father on the work ?— It had, to a certain extent, because we did not go into any work until we had the cross-sections taken ourselves. 3100. Can you say about what timie you were tirst made aware of lan, »{rHt"inaao iinv change in the character of the work from what had been intended awan; of det. r- ♦"V °, „ r.i-i> n . I « r>— _ mlliatlOIl tO liy the tenders? — 1 think in September, 1877. 3101. What change was that ? — Adopting filling in place of trestle work . 3102. Had there been any change of grade mentioned before that? — 1 do not remember. 3103. You think that the change to embankment instead of trestle was before the change of grade? — There may have been changes in grade, slight changes, in several places, but I do not recollect. 3104. I understood Mr. Carre to speak of a general change which amounted almost to an absolute change of all the grades ? — I do not think that change was made until Mr. Smith came up in 1878, but J will not be positive on that point. 3105. How were you first made aware of this change in the filling ? — 1 made the arrangement with Mr. Rowan. He came on to the work in September, 1877. It was the first time he was on the section after I took charge of it and walked over the work. When we came to one of these voids or depressions I asked Mr. Rowan what was going in there. He said trestle, or earth if it could be obtained. He said that the Chief, would prefer earth embankment to trestle, if the earth After walking some distance over the line ho went down west of Deception, and ho wanted mo to name the place. Mr. Ruttaii and I were together when he wanted me to name the place that wo would fill. 1 asked for time to think over it, until next morning, when I was to meet him at Mr. Carre's office. We met him there. I told him that we would fill all the fills that were there. He said that there would be an extra haul, and he asked where we would got the material. 1 told him we would bring it by locomotive and cars. He wanted to know where wo would procure the material. I told him that Mr. Rattan and I had been looking into the matter some time before that, and that wo would fill all the fills without charging extra haul, but wo would not fill any particular voids that they might choose to iiamo, unless we were paid the extra haul. If we made all the fills we would do it without charging for extra haul. 3106. Was that the proposition on your part to Mr. Rowan ? — Yes ; a proposition on ray part to Mr. Rowan, to be approved of by the contractor. 3107. The contractor was not there ? — No ; ho was not there, but I made it subject to the contractor's approval. 3108. Then at that time it was not accepted ? — It was accepted in Manner in which this way: he was certain that he would recommend it, and that tho p^^^J'*J['^';J^*'' Chief was in favour of earth banks, in all cases, and he gave us permission to go on and fill out Lake Deception in that way. Rowan (Sept., 1H77; came on work, anil told witness the Chief would prefer earth embank- menta to trestle If the earth could be got. in all cases, could bo got. 'V i M Prepared to fill all Alls without extra 1 haul, but this •t . . :\ would not apply to > ■■ . ' ' partleulur nils. '^ fill' lif*"-- C. WHITEHEAD 200 JRnllwny Con* •truftlon— Contract Ko. l'**. M«'a II while to tio on iind till l^ik<^ Deception, Rownn siiUl earth • fiH to l)e put In each filling liroti^ht under thlKUOtlCf, Kownn oil work Iwoor three tiiiu's ayearin wltnesH's time. Rowan's tlin'o- tlon: " Karth If it can be obtained." 3101) Then ho tlid not accept it'abHoIiitoIy as to tlio whole line ?— Xo lio (lid not accept it tlion. 1 jould not raai. Did that amount to ua ord«r, in youi- opinion ? — It did not flmount to an order. 3127. Then you did not act upon thnt conversation as an oi-dcr to do Kowair.sooiiver- tlieworU in that way ?— No, I made the otlei* aftoi-ward8 ; to do all the rirru'\fris'iii.i'uot liirth filling as I previously told you, and ho gave us orders to make |J[,yi"JJ|"'^ ••"•"■" Lake Deception till in that particular way at that time. Other matter was loft over to bj referred to the contractor. :il28. And also to the Government, I suppose ? — I suppose ho would have to communicate with the Government, or with his Chief. 3129 Then did you understand that to amount to an otVor on your iturt on behalf of the contractor, subject afterwards to conrirmation by the Government, or the Engineer-in Chiet ? — Yes. 3130. Do you remember where that conversation took place, at which Mr. Carre was ])resont? — It was in Mr. Carre's office. 3 I'M. Is there any other matter connected with this contract that vou wish to ex])lain? — I do not know that there i.-. 3132. Did you take any part in the negotiations between Mr. White- head and the Government, at the time that ho took in partners to tini.ih the contract ? — No. 3133. Were you present at any time when he negotiated with the Government as to the terms upon which he should hund over the work 10 the Department ? — No. 3i34. Did he manage those transactions by himself? — Tdo not know oovornment took how that was done. 1 do not think there was any managing. I think Joseph 'whue- thev just took it. I do not think there was any management about heiKi's hamit 1 -^ " '., JO witliout anv taking it. ^ negolia'" .n. 3135. How about the partners ? — That is another matter. I was not juesent when the arrangement was made; they objected to my being present. 3136. Then was that made by your own father on his own behalf, without your assistance ? — Yes. 3137. Do you know about what time Mr. Marcus Smith first wont Marcus Smith on there?— I think it was some time in December, 1878. i^^l'^""'^- September, 3138. That was about the time Mr. Jlowan was there? — It was a year before that that Mr. Eowan was there ; but Mr. Jiowan came over the work perhaps a week before Mr. Smith came. 3139. Is there anything else connected witli the transaction that you Smith's decision ish to give evidence on ? — I do not know that I have got anything rocit."' '°*^'*'' else to sa3\ This loose rock question came up when Mr. Smith came over the line. We had some difficulty there and he settled it. We claimed loose rock outiside of the slope stakes. We could claim, of course, solid rock, but Mr. Smith decided that we should be paid loose rock for it. Then we had another difficulty, that was loose rock in earth cuttings. We claimed a certain percentage. We made an Arrangement arrangement between Mr. Carre, Mr. Euttan and myself, that when a earth ouufngs? dispute came up as to what percentage occurred in an earth cutting, if he claimed more than what he thought he should give, we were to argue the point on the ground, and decide the percentage that should be ' 1 WIS O. WHITEHEAD 208 llatlwar C'oiiM ■trnction— Contract No* 15. DltrcrenceM with iiovorniiHint f'HKliK'or HH to iierceiitHK)- of liKitw) rock In ^■ftrtti cuttliiKH. Wo did it on several occasions, but I found on comparing n's tigureH, and iho fi(;urort returned by Mr. Carro, that \w Carrc'H «yHtem of ineiMurlni; \oom i'ock. ?i8 if they wore put into a box by themselves ? — I do not under- stand you. 3152. Did you -la m for tho rocks in the cutting the same space that Contractors they would have occupied if thoy had been piled up by thomsolves? — oluiVne o7pne of Yes; wo claim that we should have what *'ioy would measure if they io'>«« rock would 10 all piled in a pile. lunke. :n53. You claim the space that the outline of that pile would make? 1 fK. 3154. Jiut if they had already allowed you, by way of earth, the amdutit of earth that was in the spaces amongst those rocks, you wish it tt» bo allowed as if it were all rock. 'Although there might be, when the rock and earth were separated seventy feet of earth in it, you do not winn the seventy feet of earth to be allowed to you ? — Certainly we do. 3i65. And how much of rock ? — Thirty foot. 3156. Perhaps 3'ou d(^ not understand mo. For example : take 100 foot of earth with round bouldors in among it ? — Yos. 3157. Take those bouldors out and separate thom, put tho earth into one box, and all the stones into another ; will not those two boxe-j occupy more than 100 cubic foot ? — 1 do not seo why thoy should . 3158. Do you not see that tho stones have open spaces between them which are filled with air instead of earth as thoy were before ? — The stones are laid loose in tho box, and there i^. space between them which there was not when thoy were in the earth. 3159. Now what you want allowed to you as rock is the cubic con- tents of the box which would hold the rock, is it not? — Yes. 3160. You did not want tho earth which had been put into a separate box calculated all as earth ? — Certainly we did. • 3161. Then if you did you must certainly want more than 100 cubic leot ?— No. 3162. In 100 cubic feet of earth excavation, if there are a number of round stones, and after the excavation you separate the Intones from the earth, putting the oarth into one box and the stones into another box, will not these two boxes contain more than one hundred cubic feet of material ? — Yes, they will, because you will have voids amongst the stones. 3163. And you want to be allowed as loose rock the whole of the space in the box which held the loose rock. Is that not your conten- tion ? — Certainly. 14 '■1 Mm O. WHITEHEAD 210 ! S':'-::» Kailway Con- Htriictlon— Contract Aio« I5« Digputs TOgard- t ng luoHe rock not ilnally settled yet. '"."Itr.fss dalmtd Irnit ties c)n cr.; trnct 15 wc CUl; d tooclw- , V, ;n64. What would bo the entire contents of the heap of rock which had originally occupied one-half of the excavation. Have you any idea of the proportion ? — No ; 1 never tried that. 3165. Would it not bo a good deal more than one-half? — 1 do not know as it would. 3166. Before the excavation the space aiound the stones would be rilled with earth? — Yes. 3167. After the earth was taken out and put in a heap, then the stones would only have air between them ? — Yes. 3168. Did you want the earth that was t ' 3n out to be measured to you, or not? — As earth, of course; anything between the rocks was earth. 3169. Then do you not see you would want part of the whole cubic con- tents to be measured to vou twice— first of all as earth, and afterwards as ail? — No; I do not see it in that way at all. When the cutting is opened you decide with the engineer what percentage is to be allowed, 20 or 30 per cent., as the case might might be. There might be 40 per cent. The engineer might have the advantage in the estimate or the contractor might have it. It is a mere matter of opinion as the work progresses. In all cases where I have been on work it has been decided in that way. It is a matter of experience and judgment between the contractor and the engineer what percentage should bo allowed. 3170. Does not that end the matter? — Yes. 3171. Were you not paid in that way? — No, that is the difficulty; that \ii why we want it ended. That is why we said to Mr. Carre: " we will meet you on the ground and decide what per cent, is to be paid in these cuttings." 3172. Do you mean to ^ay that after you had met and decided the p< "centage that you were not allowed that percentage? — No ; in place of his allowing that 40 per cent, that was agreed upon, he only allowed us 40 per cent, of 60, in place of 40 per cent, of the whole. 3173. Knowing that he applied this rule of six-tenths to the rock agreed upon between you, would you not contend for the larger propor- tion of the rock to which this rule should be applied? — No; we did not know that he was going to applj' it in that way, and Mr. Smith told him not to do so. 3174. Did you not know, from time to time, from the progress esti- mates, that this was the rule that he adopted ? — He did not adopt it for some time. We hsid several progress estimates before he got this idea into his head, and then we objected. 3175. Then this dispute about loose rock has never been finally settled between the Government and you ? —No ; not that I know of. 3176. Is there any other matter that you would like to explain ? — We had a matter of counting ties that was not very satisfactory to the contractor. 3177. Do you mean the supply of ties on contract 15 ?— Yes. 3178. What was it? — I claimed that the ties on contract 15 were •;lled too closely, that they made a g-reat many more culls than they enould have made. 211 O. WHITEHEAD Railway TicM— Contract No. 15^ the )lace )wed 1 rooK )pov- not told csti- litfor idea Ittled the ?ere Ithey 3170. I)id y*^" ii^voe in the contract that any particular person iBhould have the decision of that question ? — The conti'act for all those nue.^ions was to be settled by the Chief. ,'jl80. Has this been settled ? — I do not think so. It has not been ettled tiatisfactoi'ily to the contractor ; it may be as far us the Chief is omerned. The contract for ties out on section 15 covers the laying of xaok on contract 14. The ties had been got out about two years, were nspecled by the Government engineers, and the track had been laid for jvear. Liist, September Mr. Rowan had the ties re-"ulled on the track, Ind notched those ties that he said \^ere culled, with the axes, and said hat they had to be taken out. My father was away at the time, but I alleil on Mr. Rowan and asked him what he was doing, and if he was jculling those ties. He said he was. 1 asked him if he wanted them (iken out. He said : " Ye-» they would have to come out." I told him hat if he could show any ties that were marked culls that had been into the track I would take them out at our own expense, but if hev were not marked culls 1 would not take them out, and asked him lie was going to stop the culls he had made in this estimate. He said : 1^0,' 1 asked him if he was going to stop them off the next estimate. lesaid il would be time enough to know it when it was done. Since len the reduction has been made. 13181. What does it amount to altogether ? — I do not know. Perhaps lor 12,000 ties altogether. 2. What loss would that be, per tis, to you ? — Forty rents; and I taking of them out, which would be quite an item. The_^- have not en taken out yet. |31B3. Is there anything else that you would like to explain ? — There B some other little difficulties that I do not know it is nccefjsary to ng up here. Bl84. Do you know whether Mr. Carre, the engineer in charge, was ■eatened at any time by you or your father that you would attempt ehim disTuissed if he did not accede to your contention as to isuiements? — He never was by^ me. I told him that we would have ictical men brought on to the work to decide whether he was right |\rrong, We have had those contentions rectified. Row.'in hm\ ties- re-cullc(l iind ordereii some out. I/)ssor 12,<)(Hj ties in consequence of Rowan's action at 40 cts. a tie, and cost of taking them out. JOSEPH WHITEHEAD. ■tructi Has lived at Winnipeg on' and on since 1H74. I'll Whitehead, sworn and examined: Bi/ Ike Chairman : — p. Where do you live? — In Winnipeg. p. How long have you lived in Winnipeg? — I am on the lino of the time, and when I come into the city I stop with my son. vebeen in Winnipeg oil' and on since 1874. |6T. Where did you live before that? — In Clinton, county of Huron, Vrio. ^8. What is your business generally ?— 1 have followed railroading a railroad man. 11 was eleven or twelve years old. I commenced driving horses in N instance on a railroad in England, and have lullowed railroad- man its branches, ever since, pretty nearly. iJfiL- • J. WHITEHEAD 212 Hallway Con- 's tnictlon — Penib. Branch— Contract Ko. A. "Witness's first transaction in conneottou with Pacific Railway. Tendering. One of the throe lowest tenderers. Peacli tendered fir 21 ots.,but - It was an pi'ice wa 3216, But did Pthing else to do, «^ very low. I si [I' can knock as i F tlie figures are 213 i. WHITEHEAD Tenderlns^— P eiitb. Branch — Contra<:t Ho. 5.. in England, and he wanted to come with me. I was a cripple at the time and came up here on crutches. So I gave him charge of the work, and finally when I dismissed him he wanted to claim a partnership in (he contract. ']'iD5. Do you know what he contended to be his arrangement ? — Nopartneisiiip There was no arrangement. and witness, 3206. Do you remember making an arrangement in Toronto ? — Yen; 1 1 remember making an arrangement with him to come up here as I iciroman. 3207. Did you not discuss with him before that the probability of iuinging him up on the work? — No; we were lodging in the same j place in Toronto. 3208. That was before you got the contract ? — Yes, we were lodging hoijether at the time; and he was foreman for some man who was building drains and culverts in Toronto. He had tendered, but I did not know it until after he had sent the tender off. After he got notified Ihetold me that he was not able to find the security in time, and so I got the notice. 3209. Were you aware at the time that if he failed to get the Ifecurity, the contract would come to you ? — I did not know that I was Ithe next lowest, and then I found out there were two others of the Itamo tigure, 3210. Did you not know at the time, that if he failed to give security you would have the lowest tender ? — I did not know that I was the [lowest. There might have been others lo.ver than rao. 3211. A^hen he was writing to the Government that he could not five security, were you aware that he was so vvriting ? — No; I could tot tell his means. 3212. Did he not tell you that he was going to write in that way ? — Jletoid me that he had sent off the tender, and then ho told me, when lesfot notice from the Government, that the Government had accepted lis tender, but that he could not get security in time, and had written \o ihjm to that effect. Then I got a letter from tl te contract Avas given to me. ?.21o. How long after he wrote did you get the notice ? — Two or lee days to the host of my recollection. ?2U. Did he claim, in his suit against you, that you had promised It Toronto a share in the contract if ho would throw uj) his tender ? — do not recollect now, but he claimed to have an intei-est in the con- bet when he sued me here. But there was no understanding, and no aik about it in one way or another. 3215. It was an object to you to get him to withdraw, I suppose Jo; the price was not so lucrative at any rate. .....», .. — .... the Department, that ? k; Price low. Con- 3216. But did you not think then that it was lucrative? — I had ithing else to dol When I signed the contract Mackenzie told me it J^^]*"^h»" ^*'"!' IS' very low. I said: "I know it is low." " Yes," said he, " but I know Mackenzie?"* '"^ mean knock as much out of it as anybody else can." I said : " Yes, |ilthe figures are very low." t- ■ J. WHITEHEAD 214 Tendering— l*einb. Hraiich — Contract Ao. 3> Atone time. tliou};ht ol tenderiug at 28 cts. Assisted fl an- clally by Hon. Donald McDonald Made alteration In price on his own information. Bailway C on- stniction. Reasons for building the I'ombiua Branch. 3217. You say you had a conversation with Mr.- Macivenzio Ijefme you got the contract ? — No ; it was when I signed the contract. H,. waid : " The price is very low." I said : " It is low." Said he : " You cai, knock as much out of it as anybody else, but the figures are very low, 3218. Wei*e you at Ottawa then ? — Yes ; when I signed the contiac, 3219. Were you at Ottawa before you signed the contract ?— No, 3220. Where were you before that? — V was living at Toi'onto. I wii, building a mill in Frederic Street and I was lodging in the .same nlai. where Feach was lodging. 3221. At one time you thought of tendering at the rate of 28 it<, for this earth ? — 1 did, and I altered the Hguro eight to two. So as t ! make it 22 cts. instead of 28 cts. 3222. Where were you when that a'tei'ation was made ? — It was made] before I sent in the tender, at Toronto. 1 tendered froni Ttn-onto. 3223. How was it that you made such a great change in the tender —1 worked it as close as it was possible, to save myself, and savoai little. I had nothing to do at the time, and I thought if I got it it migh; be a step to something else. I knew if I got it I would give satisfactii!; with the work, and it was necessary to make a start. 3224. Did you think it was necessary to name 28 cts. so as i accomplish what you have said ? — I did it on this consideration; thatll had to make a commencement, as I was a sti anger, and 1 knew if Idiil work 1 could give satisfaction, and I put it down as low as it could kj well done for. 3225. Was any pei-son else assisting you in this matter, in getiin,' the contract, or making this tender? — No ; I made the tender myseiil 3226. On your own behalf alone ? — Y'oa ; but my brothor-in-la'.v,| Hon. Donald McDonald, assisted mo financially. But I made tbl tender myself, in my own name — at least, I think I did. 3227. Entirely on your own behalf ? — Y''es ; except that I had toj depend on bim for financial assistance. 3228. But was it for your own account and benefit alone? — Yos. 3229. Is this tender (Exhibit No. 16) in your hand-writing ?—Yej, 3230. Do you remember whether any person suggested to you tlii^ alteration to 22 cents ? — No; I did it myself. 3i31. On your own information ?— On my own information altogether| 3232. Had you been up there to see the country and the nature ( the work before that ? — 1 had not ; but I think there were somcpolitb matters in the question. There was a change of Government, I think, and it was the present Government, I think, that first projoctodi Pembina Branch. Then Mackenzie came into power, and I think itwai thought that he would have to carry that Pembina Branch into oxecutioa The rails were piled up, and in Ottawa it was thought that there war a large emigrat: i that was coming in here ; that they had nothing ti do and nothing to get — meat or lodging or anything else, and their were only some ten or fifteen days notice given. That was the objefj for letting it in such a hurry. When I came up here theib was nollwij 215 J. WHITEHEAO adozen men to bo had, ami then I had to give thom $2 a day and board. 32 3. Do you mean to say that you put in 22 etc. for that work wilhout knowing the c )untry ? — I knew the work wa8 only digging from the eides, and 1 ould make 3 cts. or 4 ct^, a yard clear from it. But when the plant and stjtf were paid foi', there was no money left lifter it. 3234. Do you remember the mileage of that contract? — It wa.i some- thing over sixty miles, I think. 3235. But 3'our contract did not cover the north and south extremi- ties ot the Pembina Branch ? — It startel at the south side of Bishop Tiiche's estate. The engineers were locating the line, and I think they had crossed the Seine River two or three times. They had not the location decided and they started me at station No. 50. 3236. Did you go down as far as the boundary line of the Province ? — Yes. 3237. [ thought there were some miles at the other end that were not in your first contract? — Yes; 1 had it all the way up there. I was on the whole ground up to the boundary, and I graded the station ground. 3238. Did you work all the way to the boundary line ? — Yes ; I worked to the station ground, and the station ground is up to tho boundary line. 3239. The specification describes two sections of railway, the southern iiection, going through townships 2,3, 4 and 5, in length about twenty- four miles; that does not embrace township No. 1, on the boundary? — I do not know, but I did it away from here up to the station ground at Emerson. 3240. Do you mean that you were oidered, under your contract, to work down to the southern limit of the Province? — Yes; the engineers were there and staked it out for me. 3241. Do you mean that you never understood that there was aJiy reason why you should not go all the way to the boundary ? — No. 3242. And did you work all the way to the boundary ? — Yes ; I did work all the way to the station ground, and it came on a hard frosty night with snow, and I did not quite finish it. 3243. Is there any dispute between you and the Government res- pecting that first contract of yours?— No. 3244. Has it been fulfilled, and settled for? — Yes ; there was a dis- pute in the measurement. I calculated that I worked 85,000 yards more than I got from Mr. Rowan. Finally I went to Ottawa and arranged to have it measured over again. They appointed fresh engineers and brought mo out G5,000 yards more than Mr. Rowan wanted to give me. 3245. What was the next transaction connected with the Pacific Railway in which you were interested? — This was in 1875, I think. I did nothing in 187b', and in 1877 was the next contract — contract 15 — ,wilh Sutton & Thompson. 324'). Was that before the work on the north part of the Pembina Branch ? — No ; I held the contract for 14. Balltvay Vonm Htruction— Pentl>. Brnuch— foutrnct No. S« Kxtciit Dl' con- t.raut, over ^jxty miles. , i rJra'liHl as Tar aa l)<)unn Ooverniuent ari'l contractor with, respect to thi.s contract ». . Contrat-t No. 15* .1 'ifil J. WHITEHEAD 216 ■tnictfon— Contract Ho. 15* Tcnderlni;. Twenty-six tf n- ders. Witness's the thirteenth. JDld not get con- tract on his tender. Sutton A Thomp- son Hucces' ful tenrterijrs. Whitehead goes Into partnership •with them and buys them out. 3247. I am asking whether the contract with Sutton & Thomjwou was before the finishing of the north part of the Pembina Branch ?— 1 took 15, and then they had the iron to get down to Selkirk, and I thought it better to make the road and run the iron down the track. Section 15 was the first. 3248. Was that work let by public competition ?-^Yes. 3249. "Were you one of the persons who tendered ? —Yes, I tendeiod ; but there were twenty-six tenders, and my tender was just the miikllc — the thirteenth. 1 did not get this contract on my tender. 3250. Was it let by quantities and a schedule of prices applied to those quantities ? — It was let by a schedule of prices. 3251. And the monoying out of those prices attached to tlieso difi'erent quantities showed the whole sums, and the comparison of those whole sums showed which tender was the lowest ? — Yes. 3252. That was what you understood to be the way of arriving at the lowest tender? — Yes. 3253. Y'^ou say your own tender was about half-way? — Yes; it wan the thirteenth, I think ; and there were twenty-six in all, to the best of my recollection. 3254. This work was advertised several difterent times ?— Vchs ) three times, I think. 3255. Did you tender each time? — Yes. 3256. Did you understand that your tender was not likely to be accepted, but that the tender of somebody else was, before you made any offer to Sutton & Thompson ? — No ; I found I was a good way up, and they were not able to take it if it came to them. They fully expected that it was going to come to them, but they were not able to fut up the security, and they wanted me to go in partners with thorn, spoke to Mackenzie to see if he would have me put on as partner with them under an Order-in-Council, and he agreed to do so, and by that means the contract was given in that way to Sutton, Thompson i^c Whitehead. I got the $80,000 put up for security, and I bought them out. 3257. You say that Sutton \-, Thompson thought it was likely to come to them ? — Yes ; they were second or third. 3258. , t the time that thty were under the opinion that it was likely I ■ ^me to them, were you of the opinion that you were u long way off V — { got to know their figures, and I knew those prices lor the largest bulk of the work were pretty good, and the thing could bo worked through. 3259. You say you got to know their figures? — They told me their figures. 3260. Who told you ?— Sutton & Thompson. 3261. Speaking of your figures in tender No. 13 on the list: how did you know that you were not next to Sutton & Thompson ?— We talked one amongst another and 1 found I was about thirteenth. 3262. Talked with whom ? — The different tenderers that were there* 3263. That was after they were all opened ? — Ye° ; after they were all in and opened, and I found that Sutton AThompson's figures were 217 J. WHITEHEAD Tender! itg— Contract No. 1 5 , I riclty gooJ for rock and earthwork, and offtakes, but for the tunnels m-new there would be money lost in them. I calculated there would 1 1^ $50,000 or 360,000 lost in the tunnels. 3264. Did you know anything about the affairs of Sutton & Thomp- sutton a Thomp- ,,n whether they were wealthy men ornot?— I knew that they could eouia'not pot up ,,;put up the money. ^.l^'irio^^e^ii out 3265. Did they say that before they got the contract ?— Yes ; they ?,eairgo in a"®' Uauted to sell out. partnerH. 3266. Did they say that? — Yes. They wanted mo to go partner Hon. Alexander I with them. They knew my brother-in-law could put up the money, admittefi white- andl went in with them, and Mackenzie admitted me as a partner by jjy'^orje^.'iui"^' iirdei'-in-Council. Council. 3267. Had you arran^'^ed with Sutton & Thompson, before it was I known that the contract had come to them, that you would go in with bc^^-Yes. 3268. Did you tell Mr. Mackenzie that ? — I do not know what I told im; but I told him Sutton & Thompson wanted me to go in partners, land he cautioned me about them, and said I should take care of them. 1 dare say he knew them better than I did. 3260. Before it was known that Sutton & Thompson wore to get the ontract, you knew that if they did get it you were to be a partner? — Ve?. 3270. Did you communicate that to Mr. Mackenzie ? — I mot Mr. I MiK'kenzie between the two buildings, and I told him that they wanted I me to go in partners with them. I asked him if I could be admitted ilirough an Ord6r-in-Council to become a partner with them, and he \m\ he would do what he could. 3271. Do you remember writing Mr. Mackenzie a letter on the sub- |;e(:t?— Very likely I did ; I do not distinctly recollect it. 3272. Did you have any communication with Mr. Mfickenzie, or any [fine else connected with tho Government, befoi'o it was decided that I fjiitton & Thompson were to get the contract ? — Not to my recoUec- i'ln, 3273. I a lower tenderer, Charlton ? — I think I did Do you not remember writing to him about letting the contract ingTietteMo '^'^' write a letter to that Hon Aiexandor , , , ,T ^- ^ 11 ^ i Mackenzie, about Itllict. lie was wantmg to sell out too. a lower tenderer, Charlton. 3274. Did he try to sell to you ?— I do not distinctly recollect whether Chariton tryins [he did or not. He was trying anybody that he could get the chance to somebody.^*' hell out to. 1 was about the Russell House at the same time that he hvas there talking about it. I heard him talk about it, and offer to sell. There 3275. To whom did you hear him offer it ? — I do not remember I ^voie a dozen of us there. 3iI76. Can you name any person ho offered to sell out to ? — Tho first Mr. Cauchon sent [I heard of it was from Mr. Cauchon, the Governor here. He thought fntosh^to sen 'oia' JMackintosh was a partner with Sutton & Thompson, and he sentCharl- to htm. ton to sell out to Mackintosh. That was the first I heard about tho heliing. 3277. Who did you hear that from? — Mackintosh told me himself. That was the first I heard about selling. J. WHITEHEAD 218 Tenflrriitg — '."oiitrait Not 15. 3278. What ' -as the next ? — It is so long since th;it I cannot iiMnen. ber. Ho would soil to Sutton k Thompson, or to anybody that wimi buy him out. 3279. What makes you think he wanted to sell to Sutton & Thoni^ son? — Because 1 heard him say if ho got it he would sell out to the!;. 3280. What did he want from them ? — I do not know. 3281. Do you knowof any others ho oflfered it to? — I do notreniti bor. 3282. When he proposed to sell out to Sutton it Thompson, anij you knew that you were going to be a partner, what did you hay aboi;; it ? — r do not know that it was before I knew I was going to bcaiur.. nor. 3283. What did Charlton say? Did you and he lalk about sellin(;i' out, or did you talk about buying a share if he did soil out?— He waJ talking to Sutton & Thompson, and ottering to sell out if he got i: but I do not remember any price ho asked. First awanied to 3284. Was that before it was decided that he was the lowest lenderir — I think so. 1 think it was awarded to A. P. Macdonald, in the tiiv| instance. 3285. Then this talk was before it was known who was to "ot it - Yes. 3286. Was there any amount mentioned ?— No ; I do not think ii, 3287. As a matter of fact, what was the arrangment betwec;. Charlton and Sutton & Thompson, or between you and Sutlonil Thompson and Charlton ? — There was no arrangement with Cbatltu at all. 3288. Do you know anything about any arrangment between Siilio;!. or Sutton & Thompso"i and Charlton ?--No. 3289. You know there was a general talk ?— Yes ; it was about three! months before the first letting to A. P. Macdonald when Sutton andll finally got it. A. P. Macdonalil. Bought out Sutton A Thomp- son. 3290. You finally bought out Sutton & Thompson ?— Yes. 3291. In paying them their price was there anything said aiwuttiie amount, or whether any amount had gone to Charlton ? — Xo. 3292. That was not taken into account ? — No. Dot's not recollect 3393. Now when you wrote that letter to Mr. Mackenzie, whatwa- his object In your object ?— I really cannot tell my object now. We had been there j respeoting two or three months and I was tirtnl of stopping there, as I wishw \'A aVcx! Mackenzie'. ^*^® ^^ decided in some shape, it was such a long-winded thing. Ii) not recollect, it is so long since. Made bargain ■with Sutton & Thompson to give them, If they got contract, $10,000, find security and l)ecome sole contractor. 3294. It was before Sutton & Thompson were informed that they were going to have the contract, that you made the bargain wiilij them, that if they did get it you should be a partner ? — Yqs. 3295. On what terms were you to be a partner? — I arranged to give j them 80 much if they got it and I would find the security. 3296. How much were you to give them ? — Ton thousand dollar:^. ■«* 219 J. WHITEHEAD 3297. Thon you wore to find tho socurity ati.l bocomo tlio solo pro- |)netor ? — Yos ; and 1 wass admitted by Ordor-in-Council as tho sole contractor. 3298. Was that arranginent made before they knew they had got the contract ?— Yes. 3299. Was it understood, before it was known that they were to got tho contract, that if they did get it then you were to bocomo the solo owner of it, and you were to give them ^10,000 ? — Yes. 3300. Before it was known that they bad gut the contract did you write to Mr. Mackenzie on tlie subject ? — I do not recollect. 1 think 1 must have written him betbre they got it, but 1 am not sure. 3301. Do you not romemlier writing to him for tho purpose of influencing his mind against Charlton &Co. ? — I did write him a letter, i told him the facts whatever they wore. 3302. Do you not remember the object ? — As I siiid befoi-c, I was for i^oing home, and not staying to ^ee it settled. 3303. Do you not remember that your object in writing this letter was to influence his mind against Charlton, who had a lower tender i\n- this contract? — I do not remember the contents of the letter. 3304. Without remembering exactly the contents, do you not remember the main object of the letter? — I really could not say what was in the letter. I do not recollect it. 3305. Do you not recollect that yo'ir object was to influence Mr. Mackenzie against Charlton? — I know that I was there so long, that I was tired ot it and wanted to go home. 330H. What did you write to him about ? — I do not remember what I did write to him. 3307. Did you write him this letter in tho Blue Book report of Committee on Public Accounts, page 7 ? (Handing tho book to the witness.) After reading it will you tell me what was your object? — It appears that the contract was going into the hands of some Americans, and 1 wrote to him to influence him against letting it to Americans. 3308. And these Americans were represented Jjy Charlton & Co. ? — Yos. 3309. But you knew that Charlton was willing to sellout? — Yes; they were going to sell out to some Yankees. 3310. And you did not want them to have that chance ? — No. 3311. Why not ? — Because I think there are plenty of men in our own country to do the work without getting the Yankees to come luul do it. 3312. At the same time that you wrote this letter, you suggested to him to give the contract to Sutton & Thompson ?— Yes ; because they wore the next tenderers. 3J13. Did you know then that theirs was the next lender? — It is likely I did. 3314. How could you know that ? — It was very likely we told one another's tenders after they had been opened for two or three months. It is often enough known after the tenders are all in. TeiifleriiiK— Coutrnvt Aio.15. Made soli' con- ti'ftcHor by Onli-r- lll-l'OUtUMl. Dl.Jedl r.f li-ltiT to llou. Alex. Wrote to prevent Hot). Alexander Mackenzie lettintc coiilruct pass Into hands of Yankot's .S«(;s;ested that Hon. Alexander Mackenzie Hhouid give contract to tSutton A Thomp- son. J. WHITEHEAD 220 Tenil«rlug— Contmrt No. IS. Oonerftlly soine- b(Kly at Ottawa who gets lo know the character of all the tondorN ag Hoon HK tliey are in. Wlf no88 knowR that thliiKH have not been In the Department two liourN when they liRve been known In the Ktrcets. Explains object of letter. Hon. Donald McDonald jiavc Sutton A Thomn- son $!(»,( KK) 111 pre.sc'nce of witness. In Ottawa. Putton, who was present, had power of attorney from Thompson. 3315. But if some man does not tell ? — Tliore was no one betweon UH, it appears. 3316. You mean only those who were present to tell ?--Tliere is generally somebody who gets to know the whole thing in Ottawa. 3317. How do they get to know it ? — I cannot tell ; it is more than I tan do, but some of them do. By the time the tenders are in they know the whole of them. 3318. You must be wrong about that ? — 1 know it for a fact. I know things that have not boon in that Department more than a couple ot hours before they are known on the street. 3319. Which Department ?— The Public Works Department. 3320. You must l»e mistaken about that ? — 1 am not, and I know the party to blame for it too. 3321. In this letter you advocate the lettiufr of the contract to Sutton & Thompson, and you say you have no other object than to let him know the feeling outside ?— That is all. 3322. But had you not another object ? — If Sutton & Thompson got it I had. 3323. What was the object? — The feeling outside was very much against the Americans getting it. 3324. And what was the feeling inside ? — That Sutton k Thompson and I wanted to get the contract. 3325. And you got it ?— Yes. 3326. And that was the real intention ?— Yes. 3327. You say that the bargain was to give Sutton it Thomp.sou 810,000?— Yes. 3328. How much was given to them, as a fact ? — I gave them $10,000, 3329. AVho gave them that ? — Mr. McDonald paid it to them in my presence. 3330. Where ? — In Ottawa when we signed the contract. 3331. The contract did not show that you were the sole owner at the time it was signed ? — No ; the whole three of us had to sign the contract, and I had powers of attorney as soon as wo signed the con- tract to give up their whole right and title to me. 3332. Were they present at the time of signing the contract? — I do not think Thompson was, but Sutton had power of attorney to sign for him. 3333. Where was it signed ? — In Mr. Mackenzie's office. 333-. Who were there? — There were Sutton and myself, and Mr. McDonald and Mr. Biaun, and I think they took the contract into the room lo Mr. Mackenzie to sign it. 3335. He was in the other room ? — Yes. 3336. You did not inform the Department of the real bargain between you and Sutton & Thompson, before the contract was signed? —No. 221 J. WHITEHEAD 3337. You wUhed tlioin to believe that Sutton & Thorap8f)n were jutill interested ?— 1 do not know that I had an^y object in that. There was nothing of importance in it in any way, and I could not May what I thought at that time. 3338. Did you not represent to the Department that you were only gointf in as a thii'd partner ? — Yes ; that was the time that Mr. Mac* kenaie admitted rao by Order-in-Counoil. 3339. But before ihat time you had arranged to be the absolute owner? — Yes; I had agreed to buy them out. 3340. Then you did not let the Department know the real state of the atfair ? — No ; I did not at that time, but I did after they passed the Order-in-Council, making me the whole contractor. 3341. Why did you think at that time that it was advisable to keej) from the Department the fact that you were the sole owner? — J po30 the contract was a loss ? — Then he would get no profits. 3347. Were you to bear all the losses if there were losses? — I sup- pose I was. 3318. Was that the understanding between you and Mr. McDonald ? — I suppose he would have made loss too, as I could not make it up* But he had every confidence in me as a railroad man, and that is the way we did it. We did not anticipate a loss. 3349. Was it arranged between you and Senator McDonald that his son was to have half the profits of the contract? — It was the arrange- ment. His soa was present at the time. 3350. What is his son's name ? — Mitchell McDonald. 3351. Where were you then ? — In Toronto, in his sou's office. His son is a lawyer. 3352. Besides advancing the security did Senator McDonald advance this money for Sutton ? — Y'^es. 3353. Did that carry interest too against you ? — Y'^es. TeiidrrlnK — CoulrMct aro. IS. Dill lint let Ihs- pnrlrnuitt know all tliu ractti. Hon. Donald McDonald put up security. Hon. Donald McDonald to ;;et 10 per cent, pt-r annum, and hiM Hon was to have lialftlK! protllsof the contract. Wllness to hear all the los.ses, If any. The arransronient made in Mitchell McDonald's office The $10,00() to Sutton aUo carried interest. J. WHITEHEAD 222 TriMlrrliiff- 4'uiilr»4;t <.«o. 15, MItcholl McDiiiiald not a tiillroad inun, iior wualtby. Hon a tor McDonald could not taku partner- hhip lifInK In Honate, and thcrofore m-ciired ii through litH HUU. Mltohcll McI>onald In- solvent at the time. Paid him HaO.dOO on account. Mitchell McDonald having got the warrant for $20,000, gave It to his father. 3354. Was liis son a railroad man ? — No. 3355. Was Mitchell McDonald II wealthy man? — No; he was ti)' wealthy. 3350. What was tho object of associating^ him an a partner wit!> you? — I Huppose he could not lake the partnership himself hein^ irj the Senate, and I suppose that is the way he took to secure tho henetit of it, by giving his son the partnership. 3357. Why do j'ou think that was the object of it ? — T do not nee any other way it could be; ho could not be a partner himself. 335S. How do you know that ? Did ho s.iy so ? — Of course he know it, and everybody know it. 3359. Did he say so? — I could not recollect distinctly whether ho said 80 or not. I do not remembor, but I know that was the object. 3360. Do I understand you to say that tho substance of the arrange- ment was, that Senator McDonald was io get half the j)rofit8, through the name of his son as a ]>artner, because he could not be partner him- self? — The anangomeiit was made in tho son's name that ho was to have half the profits. 3361. Do you know why it was made in tho son's >iamo instead oi the name of tho Senator himself? — I do not know anything except the reason 1 gave you. I know he could not have it himself. ,3362. When ho first arranged with you for the money, wa.s it part of the understanding that you wore to give up half the profits to some- body ? — Yes ; it was arranged that Mitchell was to liave half the protitn. 3363. Do you know whctlier Mitchell McDonald was worth anything, or had he become insolvent? — Jle was insolvent, and went through the Bankrupt Court since that. .3364 Did you actually pay any money on account of thai partner- ishiptoanyhody ?— I paid Mitchell McDonald $20,0()0. 3365. How did you pay him ? — I gave him a checiuo. 3366. Payable to himself? — It was a warrant from the Department. 3367. To whom was the Avai-rant payable? — The warrant was made payable to me, and 1 endorsed it over to him. 3368. Did yoi; put your name on the back? — Yes; I must have done 80. 3369. Do you remember whether you put your name on the back?— 1 do not ; but he got the money at any rate — $20,000. 1 think I would put my name on the back. 3370. Do you remember to whom you handel that piece of jiaper? — I handed it to him. 3371. To whom ?— To Mitchell. 3372. Where was he ? — 1 uo not know, but I know he handed it to his father afterwards. His fAthor was sick at the time, but I saw it afterwards in liis father's own hand in his house. 3373. Did you pay any more on account of that division of profits ? — No ; I have not jet. * 22J J. WHITEHEAO 13T4. Twenty tliousaiul dollarn is tho extent of the money (hut you Lve given, is it? — Voh. 3375. \M you ever arrange wi*h tliom that you would give a larger noin BiitiHfaction of (heir claim 1 r their part of tho profits? — ^'cH ; Uasto ficivo him $112,000, and that $20,000 was a part of it. ;j3;6. Ilow did vou arrange tho balance then ? — I gave him notes. 3377. Your ■■ n note? — VeH. 1 3378. 11'- iMuch waH that for ?— About $90,000. 1 337!). ' ere you the maker of that note ? — Yes. w'O. Have you paid it?— No; I have never been able to pay it yet. 13381. How long had it to run ? — 1 think it was twelve months. 1 ^-et now. 1 3382 When you say that Mitchell McDonald vont into the Insolvent |t)urt, do you remember whether the assignee, or the person ropresont- ; his estate, came to you for that note? — Nobody made a claim on Triiilfrliiir— CttMlrMrt Mo. 1.%. \Vll,uc«« was to was piirt. Onvc hill) noU* l. That sum the result ot a compromise. Senator McDonald not satisfied. Wanted his son to make a deed, and place arrangement in the original form.. J. WHITEHEAD 224 'Tenclcrins— came Mitchell McDonald has tried to get from wltneMH tho ainonut of these notes. Before tendering, sent a man over the road to Icara its character. MailWHy Coii> structloik — •;$(K1,(H)0 yards of rock; 80,(K)0 yards of earth ; eight miles of trestle work. 3398. Did the father ever apeak to you on that .subject, as towheilier he was satisfied or not ? — I do not think he did, but Mitchell told nie he was not satisfied and had made him make this deed to put it ba^; where it was before we made this arrangement. 3399. Did you see the fathei' after that ? — Yes ; many a time, but I do not think he ever mentioned it to me ; but Mitchell wrote me a note and sent me this deed to sign, and told me that his father was very much displeased at what he had done. 3400. Where did he send it to ? — I think it was to here. I home to Winnipeg from his office. 3401. Has any person made any claim asjainst you in respect to that $92,000 since the time you gave that note ? — No one but himself. H- has tried to get it himself. 3402. Do you moan Mitchell ? — Yes. 3403. Did you know Martin, who Tvas Charlton's partner on tb-l tender? — Ho was working on the railway hero with mo since I iroitl- contract. 3404. Had you been over this country before you made that tenJe: for section 15 ? — No ; but I sent a man. I was a cripple, ou ci-utchi-, and could not go myself; but I sent a man with hammers and drili<| to bring me specimens of the rock, and to find out wherever variation) took place. 3405. Did you have any conversation with any of the engiiicefsa>to| the kind of work that was to be done ? — No ; I had a profile to go Ii that was all. I saw the profile. 3406. Is it not usual before making tenders, besides seeing the plai and specifications, to discuss with the engineers the probable naturo»t] the work ? — Very seldom. Mr. Carre was ♦here, and gave any oxplanJ tion he could, how access was to be got to the line with provisions aril supplies. I was the only one who had a sample of the rock tlieie, Tk| engineers had not it themselves, nor had Mr. Fleming. 3407. Had there been any discussion as to whether the hrvlM should be built, or whether the fillings wonld be of earth ? — There weii> 300,000 yards of rock to ext-avate, 80,000 of earth, and there was einiitl miles altogether, I think, of trestle work. 3408. Before the tenders were made, was there any discussion leJ tween you and any person at all on the part of the Government as i^ the probability of how the work would be completed eventually?— Xj nothing except what the specification said, rock work and trestle worid and this 80,000 yards of earth. No one ever said anything dirt'eriii from that. 3409. You know there were three sets of lenders. First of all thefl were going to make solid embankments. That was fbund to be a expensive that for the time tho (Tjvernment abandoned it and asked foj other tenders. Then there was a second set of tenders leaving gap unfinished, was it not ? — I do not remember. .3410. Then there was a third set that you became interested in;! wish to know whether about that time there was any discussion a^ ' whether tho final construction of that lino would be according to thetiri set of tenders— solid embankments ? — That was all tho unaerataudin| w 225 J. WHITEHEAD Railway Con> fttructlon— that was held out at the time the tender was lot, that the rock was to <^«'»**"*«* ««».»5- be 300,000 yards, earth 80,000, with this amount of trestle work. Sill. When you bonght that co .tract from Sutton & Thompson did Went into work vou think it probable that the trestle work would bo adhered to ? — w^o*rk^ wwiiaTj ^ Yee; of course 1 did. adhered to. 3412. Did you go into that work with that expectation? — Yes; I had no other motive or understanding with any one. 3413. The change is, of course, beneficial to you ?— Yes. tcI'cont'ractJfr?"'*' 3414. You would have lost more money if thoy had adhered to the Trestle work trctlo work system ?— The trestle work would have worked itself. I be°en 'JinrsuedTn would have made money, but not so much as I have made out of the twenty years, earth work. In fact tho trestle work was the plan that they had adopted, but it would not have been finished in twenty years if thoy liad carried it out. 3415. Is not that a new idea. You did not have that idea when you commenced ?— Yes ; I did. 3411). Did you expect when you took the contract that it was to be finished with trestle work? — Yes. 3417. Although you knew it could not be done with trestle woik in twenty years ? — [ do not know that I thought so when I took the con- tract. 1 did not see so far into it at the tirao as I did after. 3418. That, then, is a late idea since tho contract was taken ? — Vos ; Miice 1 got started into it, and since the engineers told rao the way it li;i(l to be done. 3419. TIow long after you starteil on your work was it befoi 3 you came to tho conclusion that tho trestles should bo abandoned? — I did not propose to abandon them at all. 3420. Did j'ou como to such a conclusion in you- own iiind?— I saw in my own mind that it was going to bo a long job; aa we could not put on many mon if they adhered to it, and the work could not bo put tlii'O.iii^'h in twenty years. They woi'o either bourul to go buck on earth work or olso borrow rock to fill up tho embankment. 3421. What was tho difficulty ?— You see, "n the first instance, freiJ^J'e^work'^ all tho rock was to go into tho watei- stre'ches io inuke a rook base the wouuihavetakeu whole width of the embankment, .-nd thu-o feet above high \vater **" '""= '^ ^*'"'^- 'uuk. The next cut was to go ii, " .le lake, a id then a trestle had to oeput up next tho embankment, and then to got the next cut you had to build a trestle to got tho stulf over it, and the same way with the next one, and fetch the stulf in that way five or ton miles. You could only work twenty or thirty men at each end next to tho lake. 3422. Would it have been necessary from each end of tho contract to put up the trestle work before you ccnild go on to the cut beyond it? — Yes; and tho rock would have to go to fill up the wat^r stretches. 3423. Did you communicate that idea to any person on behalf of the Wernment — to Mr. Cat re oi- anybody else — soon after you went on the work ? — 1 think they began to see it themselves when Mr. Kowan wont down the line, because he told my Fon wherever there was any jdopofsit of earth, the Chief wanted tho voids filled in with earth instead I of trestle work. 15 4i' I 'ilM' J. WHITEHEAD 226 cutMng. Htmctioii— Cuiitiuct xo. 15. 3424. Do you mean to say that the trestle and other works con- tomplated at the tune of the advertisement could not have boon accom. plished under twenty years? — That is my impression, because you could not pat on men to work. Had lino been 3425. Was thai because you had to work from each end with a vecv notmore\hnn'''^ sma'l body of labourers ?— Yes ; you could not get more than twenty or twonty-tive^mon twenty-fivo men into each cutting, and they might be five or ten miles got intlfeucif " apart, and the stuff had to be put into the lake. I did not see it niyseli until after 1 got on the work. H426. You do not think you saw that before your bargain with Suiton (fc Thompson to buy them out? — No ; i did not bea it until after [got on the work. 1 did not understand at that time that all the stuff had to go into each lake. 3427. Was this talked over with Mr. McDonald ?— No ; ho did not know anything about railroads, and they left everything to me. 34i£. Do you mean Senator McDonald ? — Yes ; ho left everything ti> me. 3429. When you and he made the ari-angeraent abo it half the profits going to Mitchell, was there any limit to those profits ? For instance, were they to go to the full extent of one-half? — They were to go to the extent of one half, and then [ made an arrangement with AJitcholi afterwards and agreed to give him $92,000 to give up that chance. 3430. Did you communicate the idea that you speak of about the difficulty of finishing the contract to Mr. Marcus Smith or Mr. Kowan f — 1 am sure I do not know. TentleriiiK- Witness's teiuler for scclioii 13, WiNNU'EO, Tuesday, 14th September, 1880. JosEi'ii Whitehead's examination continued : By the Chairman : — 3431. Your tender for the work on section 15 was much hiiflior higiitT than Juvn the tender of Messrs. Sutton & Thompson, was it not? — Yes. Wiuton & lliomp- ^ ^ 3432. Do you know about how much higher? — T do not recollect at present. 3433. The quantities published in the Blue Book and the pi'lios attached to your tender after Sutton & Thompson's, make it appear that on timber your tender was about 8188,000 more than Sutton's?- I Perhaps so. 1 could not say what my figures were. At present, 1 do not remember. 3434. Do you think t' at is about the difference ? — I really could notj say; I do not remember what mine were now. 3435. The same statements make it appear that your price for tun- 1 nelling was about $128,000 more than his? — Ills price was no price atj all for tunnelling, whereas mine is $2.75 for open cuttings. Thotunnel- ing ought to be ut least three times as much as open cuttings. 3436. When you made your tender upon the examination of thel country which you say was made by your agent, did you consider pu I would have a large i)rofit on the transaction if you got it at youi'j Sutton's prlre for tunnelling tou Jew. no pi'ico in it f 227 J. WHITEHEAD Tcnderiiia— Contract So. 15> price? — I C'oiisiderod 1 would have u good thing in it. U was a largo opeiT 'on to go into. 3437. Had you made any ofUimatoof the probable i)rotit ? — I thought TiiouKht he would ,11 I oirn^i/.n oo.i/k *H lonlriicll^m,w^i than your own contract? — I found that his price was belter for rock, '^''^.^i"*'? ["^. ' I do i»ot remember exacth' what mine was. I think mine was only I'licesKooii t'oi Sl.25, and his was $2.75. llis prices were good for ties, and lor earth '^y.t,*).^."'* *'"'^'' work, but I knew there would be a loss in the tunnelling. Still I thought the thing could be worked out to advantage. 3439. How di 1 you i !' it could be workol out to advantage if the quantities which v ;o .i ,,. red to you, and which you were led to sup- ])0^Q would probaUi,\ be executed, made a difference of $300,000 against the Sutton tender, if you thought you could only clear $150,000 on voiu' own ? — 1 could not say how much I vvould clear on my own. 1 w;is i,oing into it to clear as much as I could. 34 to. Can you not explain \Vhat induced you to take :i tender of ^J.','^.^!";!,'^^'^'^^^^^'"'** Sutton's at $300,000 less than your own ? — I thought his prices were for mok ami good for rock and earth, and something could be made out of it. smnlA'ifiuK couui 1)0 made. 3441. But the quantities of rock and earth would not at all make up for the deficiency of $300,000 ? — It would come out all right enough now with the prices 1 have. 3442. But you could not tell th'^n that it was going to happen after- wards, that the timber would be . l.r.id >nod, for instance ? — No; 1 did not know anything about it. 3443. Then you cannot ex < la : '-(Oj'ond that the reason for suppo?- iiig that the Sutton it Thompi on struor would be a desirable one to have?— I thought there was money 'o h' made out it. I was perfectly certain 1 would not got my own tigr, ^.-^ because 1 was told there woie hO many below me. 3444. Do you remember a talk at Ottawa about Sutton & Thompson Rip-rap not in having left out of their tender one of the items — rip-rap? — Yes. •» ; vf ,. Sutton \t Thomp- son's tender. 3445. How was it known that Sutton had left that out of his tender? — I am s«urc I cannot tell, t h'^ard that he had left riprap out; and I think it was loft to the Dopar lont, and they took an average from the other tondeid for it and put it .) -it $2 a yara. 3446. At the time his tenuv;. wenL into die Department, there was no price in it for rip-rap ? — No ; he had left it out. 2. li Wa>. i' ftfter that correction was made by the Department that vou .igjvtifcvl w'tl. him to become a partner? — No; 1 think it was before thfd was k!i./,vn, 3448. Was it arranged between you and Sutton that 3'ou would become his partner if ho got the contract before that correction was made? — I do not think it was known at that time. 3449. You heard of it afterwards? — Yes; I took Sutton it Thomp- son t^ note to the Department, and the Department made an average from the other tenders, and put it in. 15J, J. WHITEHEAD 228 flllfet Tetulerlng— ' Contract Nw. 15* 'Some departmental matters bocome Acnown outside. party's name. I know !iut his name is, but I jikiers before anybody 1 es ^Vitness never •coulfl find out anything dhectly Charlton's interest. Knows Daniel Hayea. '«!»■ 3-150. You made a remark yesterday that matters known in the Depai'tment were sometimes known outside very quickly ? — Yes. 3451. And I understood you to say that you knew the parties through whom such matters came out ? — I say that it is generally known a very short time after the tenders are in. There is somebody gets to know what they are. 3452. What parties do you allude to? — I have knowr parties thai have got to know the tenders. 345.3. What parties? — I do not kno him by sight, in Ottawa. I do not kn(, know that he knew about the prices of thost know of. 3454. Was he one of the tenderers ? — Yes. 3r)55, I thought you know all the tenderers ? — No ; there were twenty- six of them. 3456. Do you mean that you knew any person in the Depart rnent through whom the information came out ? — 1 do not know that juirti- cuhirly. I do not know it for certain. 3457. What do you know about that? — Well, I do not know any- thing of myself that 1 can bring proof on, so 1 will not say miything further about it. 3458. Did you never talk to any person in llie Department {iknii matters in the Department ? — 1 do not know that I did. About piic or anything ? 3459. About prices or the contents of documents? — I never could find out anything. There was somebody had a better way of knowing it than I had. 3460. You tried, did you ? — I do not know that I did. I knew that I could not get an}- information, and I did not bother myself about ii. If I could have got information I would have had it. 3461. Did you try ?— I do not knowjthat I did. 3462. Did any one elsejjtry for you ? — Xo ; not that I know of. 3463. Do you know if Charlton sold out his interest in the tondor, or took any money for not completing it ? — I do not know that lie Imi'; any money. 1 never saw him take any mone}'. 3464. You might know without seeing ? — I do not know. 1 did n'! see him take any money, and I did not give him any money, and I could not tell anything further about it. 3465. Could you not tell without giving him money or sccinij h'lii take it ? — 1 do not know ; I nev- -• gave him any and I never saw him i take any. 3466. Have you any reason to know whether he got anything for not j completing his tender ? — I think he did, but I did not give him any, 3457. Do you know a man named Daniel Hayes ? — Yes ; from Toronto, 3468. Do you think he gave him any? — I do not know ; I have noj means of knowing that he did. 3184. Was f McDonald ?- 3485. At wl 34SG. Have .^JcDonald to t unu- account ? 3187. Can y coi'iect or not 3488. Are tli 3489. Wan I 3490. When 3191. What I Charlton ?— 1 \, 3492. Were 3 ^ 31=»3. What 1 ■loiel just oppoa 229 J. WHITEHEAD 3469. Did you never hear that ho gave him anything on account of anybody else ? — No. 3470. Do you know where Charlton was? — He was at Ottawa all the lime. 3471. Bui there was a time that he was away from Ottawa — just about the date that Sutton & Thompson got the contract ? — He wa^ in Montreal. 3472. Did you hear he was anywhere else — at Cornwall, for instance ? —Yes ; I heard he was there. 3473. Who was up with him ? — Mr. McDonald, 3474. Your partner ? — He was not my partner. 3475. Well, he was your financial assistant? — Yes. 3476. What did Mr. McDonald say to you about giving money? — I do not know. 3477. Do you not know that you wei"e to make good any money advances ? — Yes. 3478. Whatdid he say about that ?— I do not know any particular sum that he charged me with in the books, for Charlton, that I can refer to. 3470. Can you remember the sum now ? —I expect it was $20,000. 3480. What makes you expect it ?— Because it was talked of between me and McDonald. 3481 . Was it not more than $20,000 ?— No ; it was not. 3482. Was that the amount put down in the account between you and McDonald ? — There is no separate account, but it is amongst the other items of a larger sum. That was tlie amount. 3483. Are you sure it was not a great deal more than that ? — I am certain it Avas not. 3484. Was that part of the money on which you paid interest to JlcDouald ?— Yes. 3485. At what rate? — Ten per cent. 3480. Have you those accounts now that wore ren.l(M*ed by Mr. McDonald to you, showing the disbursements that he had made on your account ? — I think we have. 3187. Can you produce them, to show whether your statement is correct or not ? — Yes ; 1 can. > 3488. Are they here in Winnipeg ?— Yes. 3489. Was Hayes up there with Mr. McDonald nt the time ? — No. 3490. Wliei e was Hayes ? — I do not know ; he was not there. 3491. What makes you think that Mr. McDonald was up there with Charlton? — 1 was there too. It was at the station, going to Ottawa. Tpnilerliifi;— Conir»vt no. 15. Heftrd Clmrlfoir was at Cornwall, and that Senator McDonald was with hUn. McDonald charsj- ed witness wllU ,f2o,(K)() given to Charlton. Thispart of thf/ money on whcb witncfss paid Interest at 10 per cent per aunuia to Mo Donald. Witness In Corn- wall with McDonald. 3492. Were you there with them ?— Yes. 3i:)3. What building wore they in? — (t was the front room of a hotel just opposite the station. J. WHITEHEAD 230 Tendering — Contract Mo. 15, Not present wlion the money was puld. Said ho would fTO !l.20,00(l, and It'll McDonald to do the rest. Ka*Uv».v fon- Mti-lKlioiit In February, 1.ST7, learned that trestle work would not be used. Does not remem- ber discuasluK expediency of changing cliarac- ter of road, with anyofBcer of the department. 3494. You were iuterostoJ in this transaction, why were you not present ? — 1 waw out at the time. When he paid him the money I vvan not in the phace, I was out at the station. 3495. Who else was there ?-~l do not know who else was there. Tliere was McDonald, and Charlton, and another man who came i'roiu Monti-eal, a partner of Charlton's. He is peddling coal, or wood, or something, in Montreal. 1 do not icnow his name. 3496. HoAv did it happen that you were not present when this transaction in which j'ou were interested was going on ? — I was in tho station. 3497. But the terms wore all arranged in your presence? — I saiii I would go $20,000, and McDonald made tho rest of tho arrangement. 3498. You had not the means of your own to do the i-est of it 'i* — Nn. 3499. It was done with Mr. McDonald's means ? — Yes. 3500. Did you forgot about this part of the transaction, )'estci\lay, when you wore giving your evidence ? — No ; you asked mo whothcr Sutton A: Thompson gave Ciiarlton anything, and [ said no, I did not know anything about it. 3501. Were you watching the words i used ? — Of course, I have got to do that, or eli«e you would .soon trap me. 3502. Do you not want to bo trapped ? — No ; but I will tell you what you ask me. 3503. IIow long was it after you wont upon this work on section 15, w.. ..: you came to the conclusion that it could not be finished with trestle work, as was first intended by the Govorniuent? — It was the way that the engineers instructed us to go on witii the work, and instructed us that the work was to be done. Wo had to take all tho rock woi'k each way between two lakes ; there was only one set of men could work ; and when wo got trestle work to put in on one side we would have to wait until the men could work on the other side of it. 3504. About what time of the year did you become aware that the trestle work would not bo used ? — It was in February, I think, in 18T7. I signed tho contract on the 9th of January and then came up here from Ontario. 3505. Were you down at Ottawa that season ? — I was at the signing of the contract. 3506. I mean after you had become aware that the contract was not likely to be finished with trestle work?— I could not tell you wiio:i I was in Ottawa after that. I have been to Ottawa a good many times, and I do not remember. I did not keep track of it. 3507. Did you discuss the expediency of changing tho character of this work with any person connected with tho Department of Public Works ? — Not that 1 remember of. 3508. Not with Mr. Trudeau ? — I do not remember ; I could not say. 3509. Was not Mr. Trudeau present when you and some other poi- sons were talking about the necessity of changing the character of the work ? — Not to my recollection. 231 J. WHITEHEAD Bai Uvny Con* Niriirtioii — 3510. Do you remciiibor talking of it in the Dei)artment of Public ^ '""••»»«« «<>• »5. Works i* — No; 1 do not. It was with Mr. I^owan the thing tir.st com- 3511. J am speaking of a later time, after Mr, Rowan told you — about September, when he was down on the works? — I do not recollect. 3512. When did you first go to Ottawa after that ?— [ could not tcH (bat either. 1 do not recollect. 3513. Have you over been lamined as a witness before any of the ("oramittoes of Parliament ? — Jo. 3514. Wore you down at Ottawa at the time of any of the committees tiiking evidence ■.'—Yes; I was there the Session before hist when Mr. Pioniiii was examined, and Mr. Carre. 3515. You ^ ore not asked to give evidence ? — No. 3516. Do you know why you were not asked to give evidence ? — Xo; I do not know anything about it. 3517. Was there any arrangement by which you were not to give oviiienco? — No, I never heard of it; 1 did not know that they wanted meal all. H51B. Had j-ou been down to Ottawa before that, the season before, after Mr. Rowan had led you to understand that the character of the works was to be changed ? — J reall}' could not say ; I did not keep any memoriindum about going to Ottawa. I have been to Ottaw^a many difl'erent times, and I do not know any particular date. 3519. Have you let much of the work on contract 15 to subcontrac- ini>?— Very little, except the earth work. I kept all the rock work in my own hands. 3520. How much of the earth work did you sub-let? — I could not jay; where there was any barrow work or gr;i ling work that was to [Ijedono beside the trestle woik. 3521. Was that a small proportion of the whole ?— Yes; I do not appose that out of 1,000,000 yards I have let more than 20,000. i522. So that the bulk of the work you have done without sub-con- tract?— Yes; all by days" labour. 3523. Did you ever have any conversation with Mr. Fleming upon 1 the subject of changing the work from trestle to eml>ankment? — I do [not recollect that I ever had. 3524. Or with Mr. Smellie ? — I could not say; I do not remember I about it. 3525. Coujd you fix tho date at which that conversation took place t Cornwall between you and Mr. McDonald and Charlton? — It was piist a few days before the contract was let. 3526. You mean a few day.s before it was awarded to Sutton & Thomp- on?- Yes ; three or four or five days — perhaps a week before that. 3527. Do you think the account that Mr. McDonald rendered to you "•ould show tho date?— I do not think it would. 3528. Has there been any complaint on your part as to the quantities l|tlie estimates ^f tho Government engineers at different times? — Docs not know iiiiy reason why lie was not pxa- niined before Purliatnentary Cotnniit tei'. Let little of work exeeptlns earth to mib-contriu;- tors. Out of a 1,000.00) yards of earth, let only 20,000 yards. Triiilering;. Meeting at f'oru« wall between McDonald, Charlton and witness took nlaee a few days before eontract was let. a.. J. WHITEHEAD 232 •tructlon — Contract No. 15« TMspuf e with Oovernment en- gineer regard I ng l(K)se rock, ties, Ac. aT.CKKl tics kept from litm. Ahout $f>«,(HlO li(> thinks kept from liiui 3529. What was the principal dispute about? — Well, the loose rociv was a largo item ; and then there were other things — there wore the lies. For instance, Mr. Rowan makes me find all the ties to lay to the balla>t pits, and I have no right to do it, according to contract. I do the laljoiu' for nothing just to put the roads in ; but the Government Hod thu materials: sleepers, ties and rails. I spoke to Mr. Sehreiber about it (I think he has kept some 27,000 ties off me, as near as I can guoss) after he came over the work, and he said it was absurd to keej* the lies off me without paying for them. They might as well make m*. find the iron too. Then there is some of the track laying not paid foi' yet, and some of the days' work not paid for. I calculated it as near as I can figure it up, and Mr. Sehreiber has promised to give mo a finnl statement in November. Everything all told, I think there was 8O(),O0(! kept off me. 3530. Has the withholding of this money, to which you think voi are entitled, prevented you from successfully ciinying on the works, — Yes; the works would not have been in the hands of the (jrovornincnt to-day if I had got my estimates as I should have got them. 3531. Did you make any application to the Govern ment for assiv; ance ? — Yes, I did. 3532. When did you first make it ? — I could not say when 1 tiist made it, but 1 think it was some time about the month that Mr. McDonald died. That is about a year ago in January. 1 do injt remember the date. Thi ■ gave me 1-15,000 on my plant, and that, 1 think, is all paid back again. Then 1 wanted to get some moie, just before the Government took possession of it, but 1 did not succmi, although I was promised it. 3533. Do you say you had the promise of it? — Yes ; I had the promise of it but I did not get it, and I took in some other partners. F5. Ficiiiiiitrand 3534. Who made you the promise? — Some members of the Govcin- sir fhas'i upper ment— Mr. Fleming and Mr. Tupper. On a Saturday morniiiir Mr. Fleming said it would be sent up here from Ottawa, S()0,oOO, on Moiiday, 3535. Was it only Mr. Fleming who said you could get it?— The two said it. 3536. What security were you to give them ? — Rolling stock, engine and cars, and such as that. 3537. Wlu.t was the value of the property which you otToieil ad security ? — Something over $IOO,UOO. There were six loco mot i\e.>;j there were 108 flat cars, and then, of couisc, they have possession i.fj everything else besides, as nothing can be taken off the work un'ilf the contract is finished. Everything belongs to Ilor Majesty until thej contract is finished. 3538. Wa? there any objection on the part of the Government to [h value of the security whicli was offered ? — No. Ont *l."i,iHKi oil X>liint. Nald he could liave »(R),(K.«). $l(Vi,nO(i viiUu'of eecurlty.l Sir Chns. Tupper 3539. Then whv did they not make tho loan to you? — Dr. Tii|i|)cij the'oovernmont^ 8»i^ ^h^t the Government were anxious to do all that lay in tlieii cannot be his power for me, but they could not be mv banker ; and he said lie thoiiirh It would be better if I were to take in partners. This was on tni Tuesday following. Mr, Grant came down to Ottawa, and Tiittle, m newspaper man, was with him. Mr. Grant was of the firm of Fraten 233 J. WHITEHEAD Frnser A Grant* WltlteheHd Grant & Pltblado. lie vvas along with Mr. Macdonald, the Minister ^.^j^^ct Mollis* oi' Justice, that afternoon. 3540. Who was? — Grant was; and next day I saw Tapper, and he said he thought I had bettor take in a partner asthe Government were anxious to do all they could for me. He said he did not think I had iin enemy in the Cabinet, but that they could not bo my bankers. [Mnally, I agreed to take in a partner, and they were to find all the Money not fort h- moncv that was necessary to carry on the works, but they failed to do co.niiig the work I I i • Ui • i ii 1- J I'.i. /^ . passed Into the it, and so 1 went right into the hands of the Government. hands of the Oovernment. 3541. When it was suggested that you had better take a partner, was whon partner any name mentioned to you ? — No { there was not. By Sir Charles n,as^"rSpno'r* ***' Tapper you mean ? montioned uo 35-42. When it was suggested that you should take a parcner, was it also suggested what partner you should take ? — No. 3543. Was there any allusion made to any of those persons who did become partners, by any person connected with the Government ? — No. 3544. Are you sure of that now ? — Not to me ; there was not. 3545. Was there any suggestion made by any member of the Govern- Nor did any r taking in these individuals?— I do not know that {^,''^';^.|.n^neni' which led to you there was. 3546. This proposed partnership was no advantage to you, understood you to say ? — No; it was a disadvantage. he sui,'gest any one. as I t 3547. Do you mean to suggest that this proposed partnership was Does not euggos brought about by any action of any person connected with the Govern- was^^rmiKht^ ' rnent ?— No, I do not say that, because I do not know ; but Sir Charles aI?"io^i'^^f a}fy Tuppor told me that ho thought it would be better to take in a partner, person connecteii That is all I can tell you about it. ^^i^" Department. 3548. Did any other person than Sir Charles Tupper, connected with the Government, mention any names to you as proper persons, or desirable persons, to form a partnership with ? — No. 3549. J> -e you sure of that? — Yes ; 1 do not remember anybody. 3550. Those persons who proposed to be partners, .as I understand you, failed to frrnish the capita! which you expected? — Yes. 35.'il. And that has led to the trouble about your completing the works ? — Yes. 35r)2. And that trouble has led to the Government taking the work out of your hands? — Yes. 3553. Now, we wish to understand all the particulars about this trans- iiow he came to action by wliich you took partners who wore supposed to have capital, t^ai^e in partners, instead of borrowing money froin the (rovernmont. I wish you to explain any matter which 1 have failed to ask you about, that will give us a correct idea of how the thing was arranged ? — Well, Grant came (lov'n to Ottawa, and when Sir Charles proposed the partnership to me, 1 told him that I did not require any partner ; that I could do without a ;• tner; that I had spent a large amount of money in taking plant and pruvisions down to North-West Angle 110 miles, and that I had to team it from here. Sifton Ward & Co. were behind time in finishing their contract on section 14, and that is the way I should have got my provisions, plant, and material down ; but they were so far behind with i * J. WHITEHEAD 234 Si'raiier A Oraiit- WlilteheNd Coatr» r)y Duwbim route. iju(.j^s, to start on tho oast end of the contract instead of the west etui. 1 told him 1 had spent a large amount of money in this, and I wns getting the work into shape, and could work it by steam ; that 1 had five steam shovels and six locomotives, and I had every preparation to work the things on a very economical base, and I did not wish a partner at all. lie told mo 3554. Who told you? — Sir Charles Tuppor tolj mo that the Govern- ment was inclined to doovorything that lay in their power for mc, Imi that thoy could not bo my batdvcrs, and that I had better get in a partner. Then 1 came home, and 1 did not come to any decision in Ottawa about taking in a ])ariner. 1 came home and there seemed to bo a ring formed against me when I got here to Winnipeg. Cooper, Fairman i*t Co., who made glycerine foi- mo, wanted to have their accouiii for the glycerine. I think it was about $9,000; 1 do not exactlv I'emomber the amount, 1 failed to get the money in Otiawa that i expected when I went down, and when I had failed to get it Coo])er came in and said that unle>s he could get tho money that day I slioulij bo an insolvent before the sun set that night. Well, there were two nr three parties wb were my friends, or pretended to bo my friends, tc^ok tho thing up ani ^ot hold of Grant. This Cooper told them that he could get som' irties who would go in partners with me. AtYoHiiK'sofflco 3555. Whom uid Cooper tell? — He told Dr. Schultz and Young, a merchant here, and some other parties, that he could got some parlies who would go in with me if necessary. So they asked me to come down to Young's office, and when I went down Cooper was there, aniiivln<{ told hi 111 that tho Govern- ment eould not • ic Ills bankers, witness went »)ack to Winnljicg where Ills creditors pressed liiin. (^ooper. Fair man <.V Co. wanted thoir iiocoiint of .*!i,0(»0 I'or glyce- rine, and Co^iper llircatened to make him an Insolvent. Cooper said he <'oald net parties 1o KO Into part- nersihlp with htm. Cooper su);;rested, Fraser & Orant. rartnershlp iirraufiement. 3557. Was he with you ?— Yes ; Cooper said it was Fraser & Grant. So he went and fetched Grant up, and he proposed to find all the money necessary. Money was the least object in the virhole transaction accord- ing to his statement. So the arrangement was made that they were to go in partners, that they were to have half of the contract; that the rolling stock and plant that I had were to be valued, and that they were to pay cash for one-half of the plant when it was valued. It wm to be done by arbitrators. I was to have one, and they were to have one, and C J. Brydgos was to be umpire. 3558. Was that part of the agreement upon which the partnership was to be ai-ranged? — Yes. Well, wO got the plant valued after some time, but there was a great deal of delay. We were to go on with valuation right away, but instead of that Fraser went down to Ottawa next morning and did not appoint an arbitrator. 3559. Was the agreement for the partnership completed at that time? — Yes; I think the documents were all drawn up. 3560. Have you the documents? — Yes Ibem in the office. I think Mr. Ruttan has 235 J. WHITEHEAD 351)1. Do I undorstand you to say that iho terms of llio partnership ffO re ar ranged up here at \Vinnij)eg? — Yes. 3562. At the instance cf Cooper? — Yes; he was the part}- who F rater A- tiirltut- \Vlii(<-lic«ut money paid to (. liarUon. Ilflafivo posit loi. of lenders well known. Railway Coii- Hlriit-tloiia Government carrying on work on the linder- st.'tnding tliat wltnt'SK is to set all tiiatconu'Kout of work alter cost lias been de- frayed. TendcrluK. 3583. J low were you aware that theirs was tlic noxt tender?— It was pretty well known what every man's tender was at this lime; it had Doen three months before the C tibinet. It was throe months bolweoii the time the tondora went in and tho time the contract was let. 35?4. J)id you pay t'lat at tho time, because you undorstool tluit it Charlton backed out Sutton & Thompson would got tho contract?— Vos. 3585. And you had made arrangements with Sutton & Thompson to buy tliem out ? — Vos. 358b'. And you oxjiocte:! that tho effect of tliat would bo, you woiill bo the solo ontractor ? — Yes. 3587. Are yt>u awaro whether at the time you speak of, when llu money was paid to Charlton, any undorstunding had boon arriveil iit either between vou and Macdonald or any one connected with tho J)epartmont about it? — No; the Govornmont knew nothing at :i!l about it. 358S. T moan about Sutton k. Thompson's tender being the next.' — No ; wo all knew whoso tho tenders wero, one above the other. There was an American next above Thompson, named Gray, ofXow York. The tenders were all well known us tiiey were in three moiith>, 3589, Yes; but they might bo in thirty months and the public woulil not know, unless somcboJy fi'om tho Department told, for some oiii; person might ])Ossibly keep his own secret, and not inform tho pultji. that ho was a tenderer ? — He might; but 1 did not hoar of anythiiii: of that kind. 35!i0. Of course not. You would not hoar anything about it from him if lie kept his secret?— No. 3591. Are you carrying on th(?se works now, on section 15, on yom own account? — No, tho Ciovernment has taken tho carrying of them on ; and the understanding is, that thoy have possession of all ray rolling stock and everything else, and whatever proceeds come out of it, after the contract is finished and after all debts and liabilities are paid, the balance left comes to mo. 3592. At the time that you wore dealing with Charlton, at Cornwall, were you not awaro that he had a partner named Martin ? — I did not know. Martin Avas not thero 3593. But you saj' you knew all about everj^body's tender?— Yes; lie was in the tender. >* 237 ). WHITEHEAD TrmlrrlnK— (''ontract No. IS. Knilwny t'ou" M t rill' t Ion. 3504. Did you und:.'rrttand whothor Martin wn^s willing to sell his chivritonsiiid h« fij^lit in the lender lis well us Chailton? — I do not know. Charlton Ij{\\\,'.'',,'"y*rJ.',^,"',,i feemed to bo the managing nnan in the whole thing, and ho waid i»o piiriner. hud a power of utlornoy from his partner to ao up the work to To >rct. lo ots. you that they had no further interest in ihe cost of it, or that "■^''"'''• the Government were still answerable to them if the Department got it (lone cheaper than their own price? — i do not know anything about that. Silton & Farwcll agreed to give me 40 cts. a yard for it. Do whether mad( which that niow whether you made any agreement question was considered, or whether they gave it up to the Government ? —1 do not know. They got the consent of the Government to give it tu me, and that is all 1 knovvr about it. I agreed to finish it for 40 cts. a yaitl, and as soon as I got t!ie agreement I set three steam shovels to work at it. 3627. Is part of Cross Lake m section 15 ? — No; it joins upon a little island between this bay and Gioss Lake. 3628. What was the principal filling on 14, near your conti-act ? — It was all earth work. 3629. Was there any water filling? — That is a wa'er rilling where I ?puli0 of. 3630. V.'ht.t do you call that water stretch ?— It is a bay that comes in from Cross Luke. It just goes in back of the island, and we have I'l'Ossed it. 3631. How long have you ht'on engaged in filling Cross Lake, Time Cmss Lake including this bay ?— We started last spring, a year ago. '"" ''"' ''"'^''• 3632. When was it completely filled? — We went on to Cross Lake after it. Cross Lake has been finished about a month. It goes down a little every month, but I think it has now found a resting place, and it sinks bodily. 3633. When did you commence this water filling on section 14? f'<^rnmGT^cea at (ilUng on so'-tlon 14 in the fiprlng of i8:!i About a year ago last spring, 3634. How long was that after you made the bargain with Sifton, Ward it Co. ? — I started at it right away. 3t)35. But you say tliat when you made the agreement with Sifton A: Waid, Mr. Mackenzie had to approve (»f it? — Yes. 3636. Would it be Mr. Mackenzie who approved of it a year ago last spring? — I think it was in Mackenzie's time. I have the agreement somewhere. 3637. What ^'^•ce have you had at work upon this water filling near Forco employed Crot-sLake? — I have h>*d two steam shovals, three locomotives, mid o" this iiu. perhaps 100 men. 363^. Working night and day? — Working night and day. liiif m J. WHITEHEAD 240 Htrnctlon— Contract N»* !■!• Airreentent with KlI'toB A Co. Slftoti A Co .had not machinery for puttliifj; work forward. Contract So. 15. Conversation ■with Kowan and otliers as toearlli worli tlllin^ij. To malie partli nillnKs williout extra liaiilHge. 3639. Look at the agreement, Exhibit No. S5, and c&y whether that wa.'i the agreement made between you and Sifton, Ward & Co. ? — Yes' I think that is it. 3640. That is dated September, 1878. Did you commence the work upon the filling soon after that? — Yes ; there were two or three places this side in the embankment that had shrunk, and we had to fill them up before we got to this bay. Their agreement was upon an old speci- fication. My iigreement is. that where there is a haul of 1,200 feet and over up to 2,500 feet, I get a cent a yard per 100 feet for it ; bm his specification was from 1,200 feet and had no limit. 3641. This arrangement, you say, was bi'ought about at your request? — No; they came to me because Mr. Marcus Smith proposeil to take it out of their hands. They were notified different times to push the work forwai-d, but there was no progress made ; in fact thev had no plant or material to do it. I had three engines and sixty flat oais to put into it. It took about $70,000 worth of stock to woi-k at it. 3642. Was Mr. Smith a party to this arrangement between you?— No ; but be threatened to take the work out of their hands, and they came to me to do it becaui?e 1 had the plant for the purpose. 3643. And when they were pressed by Mr. Smith they came to 3-011^ —Yes. 36 14. The former negotiations which you had attempted had failed, and had been given up ? — Yes; that was when I started in September and offered them 850,000 but they wanted $70,000. 1 knew that they could not make half ot it, but I would have to remain idle for a year until they got thi'ough, or haul my stuff down by the Dawson loiite. It was in September, 1878, that Mr. Smith threatened to take the con- ti-act away fiom them. 3645. Is there anything further about section 15 which you wmhI 1 like to explain to the Commij^sion ? — I do not know of anything fuithii', except about that earth work when Mr. Rowan came down. Mi. JJowan was on the line with my son and Mr. Kuttan, and they had this thing talked over, and they came off the line and told me whiit they had been talking about. They asked me what I thought about it, 1 said I vv'ould let him know to-morrow. After thinking it over I tulJ him 1 would undertake to fill all the places where there wii.s to lie trestle work, with the engines if I had to draw it four or five milo>, He said if 1 would do that without extra haulage he would rccomrueui it to the Government with all his might. 3046. About what time was that ? — I do not know. There in a letter in the Blue Book will tell you. 3647. Was Mr. Marcus Smith preseiit ? —No ; I do not think Mr, Smith came until September, 1878. Then T told Mr. Rowan 1 would fill all the places where the trestles were going in, with earth, without extra haulnge. He asked me if I would give him a letter to that ett'oci, and I told him that I would. Shortly after that he told Mr. Carre 1 1 set out the retaining walls in the water stretches that, were to form the foot of the bank. 3618. Is there any other matter connected with section 15, oitheiib to the manner in which you got the contract or the manner in which the work has been done, or any negotiations between you and tho 241 J. WHITEHEAD Tendering— (Jovernment which you have not fully explained ?— No ; I do not *'""**'"''*'*"'' *^* Itnow anything else except the amount that has been kept off me. That is in the hands of the Government, and they have agreed to let it !$tand until the contract is finished. It is an open account to be settled. 3649. Was there any agreement between you and Mr. McDonald as o^yt- senator to how he should be secured for the advances that he had made for mortRage on *'^ you?— I gave him a chattel mortgage on the plant that I bought with St'/Vances^"""' "it. 1 produce an agreement dated 10th Januarj', la77. (Exhibit No. Agreement with rto \ Senator W-; McDonald. 3650. This does not appear to be executed, but appears to be a copy of another document ? — Yes. 3651. From whom did you get this copy ? — From Hon. Mr. McDonald. 3652. This document alludes to a previous letter or instrument which bad passed between you. It recites the fact that there was a letter or instrument in which you made certain promises, and that that letter oi- instrument should be constituted a part of this document; do you know where that letter is? — I do not know, unless Mr. Ruttan has it. 3853. Perhaps Mr. McDonald is the only man who had that letter? —1 could not tell you. stipulation that 3654. There is nothing here about Mitchell having a share in the jJ{|;po®!j,(j ^,^jj ^^ nrofits? — No; that is another document. I think Mr. Ruttan has it in have airthe t, p conl n't iTien- tue sate. tlon.n inasecond 365o. Did you over see it? — les. 3656. Perhaps you will be able to find it? — I will try, I think Mr. Kuttan has it, as he had charge of all the papers connected with the railroad in the safe in his office. 3657. Do you I'emember what the item was that he charged in the statement of account against you for moneys advanced ? — No ; I do not. 1 got a senator '"'^^^^®° statement which I now produce (Exhibit No. 94) about the 4th of McDonald and April, 1878. That is the first statement I got of the moneys ho was ^ giving me. lie used to give me five, ton, fifteen, twenty, thirty, and somotimes as much as forty thousand dollars. 3658. Do you remember if this motsey which he paid for you to Chirlton, and also to Sutton, was part of the first item of $IJ5,000 in the account produced ? — Probably it is in that item. 3659. Can you produce any other statement of a(ivanccs made by Further state- Mr. McDonald to you? — Yes ; I produce his own now, in bis own hand- '"entotaccountv. writing. (Exhibit No. 1'5.) 3 60. In this last document which yon produce in Mr. McDonald's own hand-writing, the first item is on December 20, ISTG: " Advances, $;^0,()00." That is about the time that the money was paid at Cornwall, is it not ? — I do not remember what year it was. 3661. Do you rememben if that advance was just before Charlton '•^•.•»o advance ■ 1 1 1 ■ X 1 r- ^1 n i. •! T- -^ for the purpose of wiihtlrew his tender from the (jovornment f — les ; it was, paying chariton dc 8uttou. 3662. A letter appears here in the Blue Book, dated 2 1st of that same month in which Charlton withdrew his tender. Now looking at the date of this letter and the date of that charge, are you able to say J. WHITEHEAD 242 ^^tikTk TciMlf rlnjj— Cuuti'iict Ao. 15. Letter from iMaroiis Smltli. Senator -McUonald fliargcd 10 per cent, on advaiioos RiKl on seenrity Kiven to Uoveni- liient. whether that was tor the advtince.s to Charlton and to Sutton ? — Wyy likely it is. 3t)63. Have you anj letter from Mr. Marcu.s Smith upon the suhjei;! of those works? — Ves; I produce it. (Exhibit JS'o. 9ti.) 3604. Vou said that Mr. McDonald fhargcd you 10 per cent, inioror- upon his advances? — Yes. 3(5(55. Did he charge you that same rate upon' the amount of sctiiritv which he furnislied to the Government ? — Yes. 3GG6. What n-as the amount of that security ? -$S0,000. 1 di.l no: haiii'ain tor that at all ; but when he made the statement I fuiiiid it there. Nature of security. 3067. Arc yoa aware that the security as was finally accepted by the (Tovernment was upon lanils and not mono^'?— It was, in the tii.it in- stance, a checiuo marked " ^ood" by the Consolidated Bank; but after that he got pr(jperty transferred for the cheque, and got his cheque After Senator ^''^^"'^ fnom-y seeifri'iy '' '^^'OS. J)id he Continue to charge you interest upon the security after back eon tinned to he iTot his chciiue buck ? — Yes ; trom the bc^'innino-. charge interest. o i o ri 3609. So that while he was getting the use of the hinds, ho w;is uLso drawing interest from you for the amount of the security? — Yc>; ht is (.loing that yet. 1 have a balance sheet here that I got from Milcholl McDonald, wlien we settled up a few months ago, as to the balance 1 was to pa}' still. 3670. Was .Mitchell acting for his father's estiite ? — Yes; and hois now. 3071. This statement does not take any notice of the nolo which you gave ? — 2s o. 3()7-. Tliis is beside the note ? — Y'es, it is all paid ; unless this $S,O0i) for the next year for interest on the security is put up. 3673. Have j'ou at any time had any negotiations with the (iovern- inent, or with iiny of the Departments of the (iovernment, in whicli you paid other persons for their influence or assistance ? — Xo ; I do not know that 1 had. 1 assisted Miickititosh in the paper. He was niv IIUJICI'M. Mackintosh u«'s"'\vho*assI.-!ir.i security in one instance or two in making tendois, and getting my him In Ills j)ai>er. other tenders along with myself, and I assisted him with his paper or Pnj.i no one lor he would have gone down. That is all the influence [ paid for in ( )ttawii, or II the bovernment, or to anybody else. 3074. Do yo'i mean that you assisted him with money ? — ^'es. 3075. In supporting the newspaper do you moan ? — Yes; he was in very difficult circumstances, iind ho was likely to burst up. lie had been vci-y kind to me, and got me assistance once or twice in socurilii.'« in making up tenders; and I w.'is a stranger there, and did not know atiy ))crson, and ho got them for me, and that is the way I assisted him. uiaVMnckhitoM"' "^^'^^- ^^"^ ^^ ^^'®'" understood between you and him that you were iiad anyintiiionce to compensate him for any influence that ho had used with any nionsbii" me'n t for w7nch" of the (Jovornmont ? — No; not sit all. Whenever I was wanting iiiiy- '\ven"""*^ was thing he used to see after it for mo in Ottawa. jiiHiieueiiiK 3677. Did j'ou ovor mako any gifts or payments of money to any curhR. one connected with the Departments of the Government ? — No ; nut one 213 J, WHITEHEAD IiifliifiiC'iiiK « IrrkM — that I know of in any shapo. Ma<'kiiitos!i is the only ono 1 liul I over ' ""'•"•'• ^**- **• ;hsif}teil in Ottawa thai 1 know of. 31178. la } 5ur lecoUoction iruo pri('f.s, aiiil t lifi rest oi ilic work at section j5 pi ict's. l»(]tir>. ndpiil a iiows- iiapi'i' man in \V iMiiipi'-c Reus II wliv. 3P18I. You have ah-eady spoken ahoul the Pomhina Branch ijoin^ Miutli from St. Boniface. Now as to ihe Pembina Branch going north, \v:is that work let by public tender ? — No ; I did not tender for it. It was given by Order-in-Council. 1 was to do the grading of it i'nv the «amo price that I liad done the section from here to I'embinti, ami all itlier works that were to be done were to bij at iho sumo prices that I had for section 1.5. BG82. You spoke of having helped Mackintosh in tlio support of his newspaper as you have described : have you helped any person else in iho >npport of any other news|)aper? — Yes; 1 had one here. 3C83. For what reason did you help him? — We had no other pajier hoie at that time, and I had reason to know that the /•'/•< e Fres.i was working against me, and T was bound to have another paper to support me. They used to get things into the Free Pnss pa|ior. Kor instance, till' last thing I noticed we had two men killed ; and they had it in thcii- |iaper two or thit") diiys running, as though it were an accident every .!;iv. Then when another accident happened they would have it: ".\notlier melancholy acddent on Section 1.5 ! I " It went on so that I tlioiiglit 1 wo I Id get iinother p!H»er. 3(18-1. Was your object in helping him entirely to advance your owit interest ? — Ves. .^1)85. Was it on account of any influence he had with the (iovern- meiit? — No; he has no influence with tne Government. 36Sti. Were you promised in any way that he would be of any assist- ance to you with any of the Doparlments as a competi.sation lor helping his paper ? — No. * 3687. Wore you led to expect anything of tiiat kind? — No; I did not think of .su(!h a thing. 3688. Now, returning to this north section of tjie Pembina Branch, now her«.n.> t.> \ Oil say It was let, as you understand, by (Jriler-m-Coun«/il ; how wiis oftiiis poinon oi iliat fact communicated to you ?-• -I think I have a document from .Mr. l^'i'v pi'ivato'" Biaiin. 1 cannot lay my hands on it; but I lhiid< I got the infoima- coutract. jtion eitliei- from Mr. Braun or Mr. Ii(twiin, I am not sure whi'di. I do \m recollect how I got it. Tin; reiis.)n was; I was track laying on HTiion 14, and the iron was all here; and it was considered to bo the 'hoapest and host way to lay the track down to Selkirk and take iion jt'i 15, us the water was getting low in Ihe river, and they coull not [take it down over the ninid.s. U was the cheapost and easiest way. 'i'lii' Miiiii lie lipjpcd without an.N Intincncf with t iir ( iovern- ineiit. «1. WHITEHEAD 244 Ballway Ton- nirnvtlon— mall quantities it might have been done for 19 or 20 or 25 cts. Mr. Rowan let two or three ofi'-takes in my contract last summer, and he let them at 25 cts. a yard. 3708. You think if it had been let by tender it would have been done for 20 or 25 cts. ?— Per-haps lor 19 to' 20 or 22 cts. 370.\ So that the Government offered you more than double the price at which it could have been done \i it had been let by tender, in your opinion ? — Yes ; it could have been let for about one-half. 3710. What was the whole amount of that particular item fov off-take liitcbcb? — T could not tell you. There would not be more than 20 '" .W or 25,000 yards, or somewhere there. 3711. I think one of the statements published shows that the wiiole item amounted to nearly 825,000? — I dare ^ay it was. 3712. Mr. Fleming stated that the quantity was neai-ly 55,000 yai-ds in the off-take ditches alone, on the north end of the branch? — I do not know. I could not tell you. 3713. That amounted to nearly »25,000 ?— Of coui-se it did. There were a great many of them we had to make a mile or two long. 3714. As long as you got 45 cfs. a yai'd for them I suppose you i">cts. n y.-uda would not care if they wei'e five miles long ?— No ; 1 would like to be '"'"Keprioe making them yet. 1 am not finding fault, but you must remember I lost $7 a yard in the tunnels on 15. 3715. At the time that you were instructed to proceed with that work, were you notified that the Government intended to limit the Did most of work at very much higher prici'S th.an on lower part of Pembina Bruncli, ^i cts. for oft-tako (litclics oil .soiitli brunch. 4-"i et.s. on nortlieni. Could have done it for l(.'s«:, Work niiaht have been let by public tender for 1!», or 20, or-.'.", cts. The Government offered him more than doul>le tite price at which iliey could have Kot the work done haiiblicly for tendera. l'l\e whole item of ot!-take ditches amounted to nearly |2'),ikhi. J. WHITEHEAD 243 ji*^ *'|S' Hallway Con* NtruftioH — C'onti-ut't 5 At Does not kiinw tliat 111 llK' Orilcr- lii-C'oiiii(!|l It was <'hIcuIjiic<1 tlic I'x- pfMulil.iii'i' would i)()(-oxeeea$0.»,(K)«i. Nor Hint till' actual (>xpcii(ll- lure apiiruai-iiod $ll>l),(HH). Work on t he north liriinrli *'on»i)lfl('il. }'ull 1i:i'l!i>t((l. Did iniiUi I'lMicintc at *1 a rod. iiii iioii. If the linoliad fione halta-nille 8UUth the Ills l)ay at Cross Lake might have been saved. wliolo oxpeniiitiiro to any sum, or about any sum? — [ do not know. J did not hoar anj'thin;!^ about it. 3716. The Ordcr-in-Council is based u|tf)M llie proposition lliut no moio than ^(JO.OUU ^iiould be spent altogether. Was any such idi.;, communicated to you ? — [ do not know anything about that. .3tl7. As a matter of fact hits not the expenditure been iiouily S1(J0,000?— I do not know they paid me for all I did. 3718. Has that work on the north end of the branch been completed? — Yes. 3719. Is there any di>pu(o between you and the (iovernmenl at)nui that? — I do not know that there is any. 1 got a tiiial estimate. 3720. I [as the ticcount about it been closed between you and ijir Government? — Yes ; I got a final estimate and got my mone}-, 3721. Was it half ballasted or full ballasted ?--I.t was fiUl hallusi. Thore are about !t,000 yards of earth for otf-take drains let to sonu' <»lber persons on this same sectiou last summer that ought to have lijen done by me. 3722. Did you do the fencing on tlie north section? — Yes. ;!723. Was it done by a separate arrangement ?— That was an arian^f- ment between Mr. Eowan and me. 3724. That was not done by public competition ? — No. 3725. What rate did you get for that?— $1 a rod. 3726. The Government finding all the materials?- No; I found cveiy- thing myaelf. . 3727. What kind of a tence was it ? — A post and board fence. 3728. Has that work been finished ? — Yes, 372!). An I paid for ?— Yes. 3730. And ihevc is no dispute between you and the Government aluut it? — No; except the tap-drains that 1 have spoken of. 3731. The Government saved^money by letting it to somebody olso? — Yes. 3732. Then you have been paid in full for all the work north of Si. Honiface up to Selkii k ?— Yes ; 1 have been paid for all the work fiom Selkirk to Emerson. 3733. Except this claim for oft-take ditches? — Yes; but that doo- not amount to anything. I took what they gave me; and I was con- tent with it. J left it all to them. 37-54. Is there any other matter that you wish to explain about any of those contracts upon which you have given evidence? — No; I do not know of anything else. 3735. Do you know anything about the nature of the country south of Cross Lake, whether it would have been an easier location for the lino of railway than the one adopted ? — I do not know anything alioiii that. 1 never was north or south of the line. I know that at Cro?- Lake, if they had gone south about a mile, they might have escaped that big bay that we have been working at night and day all last summor — you can stand on the bank and see it. . ■'* 211 d WHITEHEAD Hnllway Lotas ;{7;Jii. l)i II. Fkaser, sworn and examined: Bij the Chairman : — 3740. Wheic do you live? — I reside at ]>resont in Winnijteg. 3741. How long have you lived here? — 1 came up here, 1 think, last April was a year. 3472. Whore did you live before that? — In New (Glasgow, Nova SfOtia. 3743. Have you been interested in an}- proceeding on account of the Canadian Pacitic Railway? — Yes. 3744. What transaction ? — Thotiist transaction was the section B (•«n tract. 374.1. That is known as contract 42?— Yes. 374'!. Was the work on that section let by public competition ? — Yes. 3747. Was there more than one adveitincment asking for tenders? -- It was advertised, 1 think, in most c»f the papers in Canada. 3748. 1 moan were tenders a- ked for on dittorcnt occasions ?— Not |that i remember of. 3749. Were you one of the persons tendering ? — Yes. 3750. In your own name, or associated with others ? — In a company 3751. Wlio wore the persons? — Fraaer, Grant, it Pitblado. 3752. Where do ihoy live ? — They lived in Truro, Nova Scotia. 3753. Both Grant and Pitblado ?— Yes. FRASER Contract [%o. 'I!3. Before taking' up n>sl(leiiC(^ ii' Will. iilpcfi;. I i veil In ■^ew Uliistfow, Nova Scotia. First triuisaotloii ill which hiicrest* ed in connection with Canailirtn I'ucinc BiUlwuy, stction I'>. Tlif firm of Krascr Oriiiit A Pttbliul<>,of wliicU witness was a partner toudcrccj lor work. Orant and Pit- blado live In Truriv Nova. .Scotia. RA8ER 248 Tmtderliig— t^vutrnctNo. -la. Int<>re8tetl one- third each. Plxty-8even niul R-half iiitlcs the ]eiit;tbol contract How tenilers woro calltMl lor I{is ilrm pi t in IWOCllstl lU't tenders, cue for section A.andone for stictioii B, the lenders also cov- erlrit; tlie whole lenjitli. Teudereil for Whole UK wfll as lor each section. Got contract on one section. Not lowest tcfiiderers. Nicholson, .Morse & Co. the lowest. To wlioio coni ract Was awarded. Time mentioned In tender for completing work. 3754. Were you interested in equal proportions — that is, onetiiiiu each? — Yes; one-third each. We tendered together as a company. 3755. Having each a one-thii-d interest ? — That was the undorHtand- ing. Each equal nhares. I think the time was extended for reCfiviQir the tenders after the tirst advertisement, Imt I would not be certain. 3756. What is the length of the section on which you became inter- ested? — Sixty-seven and a-half miles. 3757. That is known as section B ? — Yes. 3758. Under contract 42 ?— Yed. 3759. Were tenders invited for any gi'outer length of lino than that ' — They were asked for separately or in ono tender, for the vacancy in the Thunder Bay section. I think the other section was 118 miloi, and the whole was asked for in separate tenders, or in one, section A and Section B. 3700. Did the tenders asked for by the same advertisement cover the whole length as well as sections A and B?-Yes; eitlu'i- in whole or in part. 37G1. Did you tender for the whole or in part? — Wo put in two ditf'oient tenders, one for section A and one for B. 3762. But none for the whole lino? — Yes; we put in ono for the whole line — that is, our tender for A and tender for B together would be for the whole line. 37fi3. But I understand that three forms of tenders wore askod tor: ono form for the whole line, ono for the western, and one for thu eastern sections ; did yoti put in ono form for the whole (section ?— No ; \mi, we put in for the aggregate of the two tenders. 3764. Then you did make a tender for the whole as well as each section ? —Yes. 3765. I understand that you only got the contract on one section?— Yes. 3766. Were you the lowo>4^ were bound to finish it in two years? — The price I put in for tinishin«jf it in two years was very largely in excess of the price for three years. 3774. Did you put in a price for two years for each section an well as! for the whole line? — Yes. 3775. Upon what basis did you got the contract? — Upon the throe vears time. 3776. Had you the option of taking it at two years or at three years, or was it with the Government ?— It was with the Government. 3777. And they accepted the offer upon the basis of three years ? — (Jot iiiecontnua Vos; they accepted it upon the basis of three years, and offoreil a large nuvey'i'iuMime. additional price if it could bo finished within two years. It was a attain percentage — I forget what the percentage was — but I did not txpcct it could be tinishecl in two years. 3778. That percentage was the percentage that was mentioned in , vourtender?— No ; this was an offer that the Government were making io induce the contractors to finish thoir work within two year.><. Nlcliolson, Morsiv 377fl. When you met Nicholson at Ottawa, had it liecome known wen"ni'Kotiatin« •iiatlhoy were offered the contract? — They were negotiating for their for ihoir sfcuriiy .. •' . .1 .• .L i. r A. • i I •.!_ ..L when witness i.tf(iirity at the time that 1 got acquainted with them. i)..<'amearnt. 'I'liouifht the thins? w as si't tleil wlien ^■Mldri'Ws, Jones »V (,'()., were uwardeil the ••ontraet,, as tlie.v were well liacke' 1 Ihnf Ihey h. .i ■ Iglit ^lays to i)\it 111) ".leposit. Witness under impression that Nteholson, Morse een considerably «xt«!nded. ;}78f>. Who rc'-oiviMl (hat notice? — The Mr-cossfiil tondofor. Jon,,, received thai iiolico aiioi" Moi-.se \ Nicliolftoii I'uiloii to piil tip iinji,. HOC'iirily. 3790. |)I(1 Aiiilf"'vs, Jones \ Co, iinkc thtil ptiMic ? — Yos ; thoy woio notified, and tliey in:ide il piibli'j. Con Irac tors wore n(niliod piihliciv, very olton in thi' hotel. .'ili'I. Was it made Iviiovvn that liiey w.M'e awaivlod the contiad on the condition ihat liiey should |iut ii|i the d(!p »sif in a certain tinm?— Those wore the lefiiis of the contract : that tliey siiould put ii|,> ij,,. ■ spol.^ m me when he supposed 1 was ])re;ty close, aiil lie wanted to take an interest with me, if I gol the contract — that is .Mimning, Shields A: McDonald. 1 do noi remember what time it wa.> •Lai tliuy spoke to me. 3S13. Vou say that thoy spoko to you when it was undeistood that ;, 111 were pretty cline : I am now asking you when it would l»o supposed :ii;it ynii wore pretty close? — It is very likely when it was awarded to .Vicholson ct Morse. HSU. Had they made a proposition to you at that time? — No; hut ^pipko very freely about my tender being so close. 381o. At what time did Manning or anyone on behalf of his fiiin 1 i:i;iko a propc^al to become interested with you ? — 1 could not say as 'the lime. :iS!f;. I am not speaking of the da}' nor the month, but of the time lifi llio progress of the whole arrangement ?— 1 thiidc it was after Smith liud gone awiiy to New York after the contract was awarded. 1 'tliink it was then. 3817. But before it had come to your turn ? — Yes ; bofoi-e it came to Imv turn. Cttawa, most or the time while neK<*Matloii8 Rolntr forwar(> , MannlDK and Me Donald there oecaslonaily. A rueniher of the Mannlu)^ tlrui told UUn An">i"inatioii Iroiri noi nave U anyaulhoiltmivo Moiiri.-e. TendrrinK— Coiili-nrt A«>. 43. 3836. Do you know, as a matter ot fact, that Smith never had the privilege as long as eight days to come back and put up the money ? — [could not say. There was part of the money put up. 3837. Within the ei^ht days ? — Within the eight Jay.s. 3838. You were aware of it at the time? — I under8too(' that it was. 1.1 1 .1 , n T 11 i • .L The Blroi't rumour 3839. now did you know that? — I tould not give you any author- was that ilv but the street rumour that there was so much money put up. ACo'^'hiul pui'^up piirt ol" tht- 3810. And yon understood that from street rumour before the ^'''urii.v. contract was awarded to you ? — Yes ; there was part of the money put up before the contract was awarded to mo, and they were waiting for the balance. 38U. And was that understood before the contract was awai"ded to Dia n.it hnveihis y^m ? — Yes; 1 understood it from common roport. I did irom any authority, and cculd not say whether it was the case or not 3842. Were you awaro that another sura was put up a day or two after that and before it u as awarded to you? — No; J was n(jt aware of it. 3843. It appears from a C0])y of a letter published in the Blue Book of 1880, concerning these tenders, that the time given to Andrews Jone-s & Co. was named as ending on Saturdaj*, the 1st of March, .'ind not at the end of eight days after the 2(]ili of February, when it wa^ awarded to them ; and it also appear, by a letter to the Minister of Public Works, dated as of the 29th of February, that you state 1 thai should the contract for section B be allotted to you, you wei-e pi'epared to associate with you Shields, Manning iV McDonald ? — Yes. 3844 Are you prepared to say whether that was the coi-rect date ? —1 could not say about the date. 3845. Were any of your Nova Scotia partners in the Province of N"vli'A[.,^na"r,iril Ontario at that ti me ? — jS'o. "<;'•« »" ' ''« i*''; «■ vlm-e at tl e time, 3846 Do you know whether your tender which was accepted was liancd upon tinishing the road one year later than Andrews, .Jones ct Co. had oft'erod to tinish it for their price ? — I could not say. 1 never f&w theirs. 3847. Was it not generally understood among you tenderers that wiiu. >> awiir.i.a siieli was the case?— The tenders were put in in so many dift'erent ways ^^V^; """•^'"'■' "" There iiM'siiiiy ovon- \n^, (III coiiilitlon thai he put up '> per piMit. liy lour o'clock oil Silt unlay. that 1 never enquired how they were. There were some in for two years, and some in ihi' three years, and they were all mixed up. 1 was awarded the contract on Wednesday evening late, on condition that I put up the 5 j)or cent, deposit by four o'clock on Saturday. 3848. IIow do you know it was late on Wednesday evening ? — Because it was in the liussell House 1 got tlie notice. I was in the Russell House late that evening when Mr. Bradley gave me the notice, and tiio condition was that I was to put up the 5 per cent, deposit by lour o'clock on Saturday. Three days wc got. 3849. That was three days besides the day on which yon got the notice ? — No; three days. Thursday and Friday, and until tour o'clock on Saturday. That is all the time 1 got to put up the deposit. .„.. ^. , ^ 1 . 1 /.I .1.1 Put up the whol-j oo50. Did your firm put up their slmre of the secuntv within the Heourity hciorc time named ?— We put up the whole ol it. I put up the'wholo of the satu'raay. ***''* "'^ FRASER 254 Tfiiileriiiti; — Conli-Htl Ao. 42. I Put lip altoiii'lher |i:i'< 1,1100. ArraiiKrtinnt with MaiinlnK A: i'n. afterwards carried out, aii Maniii'it; & <'o., and Fruser A- t-'o. Pcrliaps iti(' fact tlial tlic scasnn was passinj; niadn II iindfrsii utile to cxli'iid lime. money by three o'clock on Satiu'duy, I tlioiiglit that Msmtiiti^' iV (',, thought we would tail in putting up our securiiy, and as thi'\ wcr," only a short distance above us, they thought we were beaten, atnl I m,. :i little scared tl;at they would not put .ip their half. I telegra])li(.i [^^ my partners, and I put up $;^(),000 myself that I had in Ottawa, aiil they put up $10(»,0<)0 through the Halifax Hanking Co., and 1 put \u. S8(i,0U0 on Stiturtlay again. That was the whole of the money Umt was required. 3v'^5l. You and your partners put up $100,000 in Halifax? — Vt-. 3852. And yon also put up iii!80,000 and $30,000 in Ottawa?— Vos 3S53. So that you and your partners put up $ilO,000 altogelhor .'— Yes; and we had two deposits of 85,0u() that accompanied our tnideis lic-ides. That remained in the Receiver General's haii Is for us. aud that was $10,000 more. 3"<54. So that you anil your Xova Sco;ia partners furnished ser'iirity- to the extent of 5--0,000 without any ussisliinco from Manning or hi. company ?— Yes. 385'). Was the arratigc-niont tliat yoa had made with Manning ar.d his partnors c.'iriiel out afterwards b}' admitting them intoti half shani in the contract? — We carried it out with them. We thought we could have got cleir of them, but on account of putting in a letter associiitiinr ourselves with Mantling t*^ Co., we felt botind to carry out our p;iii n[ the arrangement, So we withdrew our naif of the money and they \m up theirs. They put it ujj about half past three o'clock that Salufdav ill the Keceiver-tJetieial's otlioc. There was over $"520,000 deposited altogutlter between Manning and ourselves. 385(>. It seems that the time given to Andrews, Jones iV Co. was i,,; more than three days, while the tinif given to ttie previous and lowor tenderer was more than eight days ; do you know how it happened iliut they wei-e allowed sucdi a short lime ? — 1 think thiit they wore allowoi more tliiin tliree days. I think there is a mistiike theie. 3857. If they were not alloweil more than three days, do you know why it vvat, ..tit the time was limited to that? — 1 could not say utiless it ivas that the season was ptissing, and it was very much against th-- intere-*t ot the contiact to be detaining it, on account of the ice bi'oak- ing up. • 1858. J)o you mean in the interest of the contractor ? — Yos. 385!i. Would that bo a likely reason for shutting oui a coiiiiMctor. because he was to sutt'er? — No. 3;i!0. Then could it have been for that reason? — No. 38t(l. Can you explain or giv(i an}' reason why those gentlemen wl:^ were second (m the list had only tliree days given to them, while ;i tower tendc'er had more than eight days ? — I think they had more than three. 3S(>2. Assuming that ihey had not more than three days, can yii explain it?— I cannot explain it .'urther th:in that the waiil of mo my prevenlo'l thorn from putting up the security. 38H3. Was there any discussion upon that subject between \oi mil Manning, or any one of his firm ? — No. 255 FRASER ;'{8C4. Then according to your understanding of that subject, the icason why the security waH not put up by thoin was because their Uickei" tailed to furnish it, or was unwilling to furnish it ? — 1 think he w;is unwilling to furnish it. 3SG5 And that the}' wore allowed about eight days to furnish it if thiy wished? — They got ample time to hirnish it if they were j)repared 1,1 taivC the contract. 38()tJ. Do you say that that was your understanding at the tinu', at iHtiiwa? — Yes; I say that they had ample time furnished them to put in d".e money if they were prepared to take the contract. .';867. What would you call ample time ? — Eight days is rpiite sutH- lent, and, if they were j)reparod, three ilays might do. 3H()8. Prepai-ed after they had got the notice? — If they were pre- laicd to accept the contract when they teodored. When tlicy tender ihov ought to know. 3S()!». Have you been accustomed to tender for public works ? — Yes; lessor more, for twenty-teven years. 3S70. Js it usual for persons tendering to be prepaied with their iipoKit at the time of tendering? L do not mean the deposit that ;ircompanies the tender, but I mean the deposit afterwaids to be niaile Hhen llioy enter irito the conti'act ? — They ought to bo jtrepared to know how to get it. 3b7l. But is it usual for them to have the actual command of it at I ;!ic time ? For instance, although each person tendering might be jC;!lli'(l upon to ])Ut u]) 8"i0<>, 000, is it usual for each tenderer to have [(niamiitui of $200,i>00? — No; not to have commatul of it. but they I id|iiirc to know where they are going to get it. 3.'^T2. But is it usual for them to have su"li a positive cominund of it hbtn enable them to put it u^) in three days? — It i.s not usual. 387,1 Then if three days was the whole time allowed to Amlrtws. Jii:i> iV (.'o. to put up $200,000, was it less than the usual time allowc I III persons iindci'lhecii'cumstances ? — I could not say about that, because wewoieonly allowed the same. Three days was a very short time. H(j Mr. Ktvfcr : — '■<"b VYas it not an unusiudly short time to j)ut up that amount of |ir,'iiiey? — It was. Tluce days was a very sh(jrt time. ■!S75. Did you ever know in youi" experience of a contract of this liiraoiiiit where a person tendering was required to furnish 8200, 0(;0 pecm'ity in three days? — Well, 1 never had anything so heavy as that Wfoio, and I do not know of anything in the Dominion in which t^o llarire a deposit was demanded in so short a time. By the Chairman : — 'i'>V>. I suppose you began to got control of your deposit when you ^leard that Smith was not likely to furni:*h the security for Aiulrews, lines i\; Co.? — No ; not until it was awarded. Wo never made a move tout our security until the contract was awarded to our company. i"'"7. But you hud previously made arrangements by which you |ou Id command it at short notice? — No; wo hud no arrangement ui all TomU-rliiy— Com. ut't .%<>. -i-i. VVItlltss's 0))iQi A- ( 'ii., hatt ample tlini'. Tt'iidcrers slKnilr* h.' pr. i>iir(Hl ti> know whiMc tij Kcl ilciio.slt. 'i"hi>uj;h not usual lor I'Jich tfudiMcr to liavc couiniiihil of I he ainouiil wh'.'ii li'Miici' is put in. Nor is it Us\i:il to have sucli coni- niand of U as to lie ,iIj1a.v ttieni *50,n(K) lor tlu'lr half (if contract. Wliltchcnd Partnei'aliip-~ Contract jNo. 1.5. Arranged to buy Jialf of White- bead's contract. further than we knew Ihiit wo coiiM get the security ; but we made no urrangomcut. 3878. Were the arrangements carried out principally b}- your partners in Nova Scotia alter they know you had got the contract ?-. It wuH after 1 had telegraphed to them that they went to Halifax anl made the arrangement for 8100,000, and I made arrangements i;, Ottawa on Saturday tor the $80,000 — Saturday afternoon. 3879. Did any one of your Nova Scotia partners, or yourself, come u to this part of the country at the time the woik was commenced ?— Mv partners came up here. 3880. Grant and Pitblado ?— Yes. 3881. Have you remained interested in this contract to the extea: that you were in the beginning ? — No ; I have gone out of it. 3882. To whom have you sold your interest ? — We sold it out to om partners, McDonald, Manning tV Shields, and they took in some oihor partners. 3883. Was there any dispute between you and the Government eoii- nccted with this transaction? — No. 3884. As far as the Government is concerned you have urran<'e!l satisfactorily? — As /ar as the Government is concerned it is, biu wi- had a dispute with the company which is not settled. 3885. With the Toronto contractors you mean ? — Yes. 3886. Were you paid any bonus by the Toronto men to ^ive iheni one-half of the contract? — I'hcy bought out our interest for a certai.. amount. 3887. That is the first half? — No ; they gave us nothing foi- tliotir-^ half, 3888. What was the price that they were to give you for the other | halt ? — They wore to pay us fifty odd thousand dollars when wo get it. 3889. How long after you had made the contract was it before thiv| bought out your remaining half interest? — We entered into contnu"; with them in March, and 1 think it was some time in July or Augu>t. I 3890. Was there any understanding before you dosed the contiiu with the (iovernment that at some future time Manning & Mchonai could get your remaining half interest? — No; not the remotet^t. 3891. That was entirely the subject of subsequent negotiation^ '.'— li WHS the I'osult of subsequent troubles that arose among oursclve;*. 3892. What was the next transaction in which you were interestoJj on account of the Canadian Pacilic, Kailway ? — My partner went i:i| with Mr. Whitehead. We went in. I was down at Nova Scotia utthel time that arrangement was made with Mr. Whitehead to buy the liai; of his contract. 3893. Did you take part in the negotiations ? — No. 3894. Who was acting^ — Grant was here, but 1 was liable lor ti;^ actions. 3895. 1 am asking who was acting ?— Grant. 257 FRASER Frwier A Or«at< ^VhitrheMd 38iHt. Was the arrungemonl made through ( rrantV negotiations ? — Yes. contH!Vt"oI?5. 3897. Is that the arrangement to which Mr. Whitehead alluded in his ovidoiice ?— I expect so. 389S. You wore present ? — I was prenent when ho spoke about the contract. 38flO. IIow was that arrangement brought about? Are you aware, or (ire vou only aware from what has been told you by other persons ? — How an arrango- 1 am aware that Mr. Whitehead was in financial difficulties. wi'iUhead wa« 3900. IIow were you aware of that?— There were a great many men '""^ » ^ ou . tinpaicl on the line. 3901. IIow were you aware of if ? — I was here previously, in the liist |»iirt of the summer, and I knew there was a number of men un- i,aitl on the works. Cooper, of Cooper i^ Fairman, was the party who look au active interest in making the arningemcnt. 3902. IIow do you know that if you were not there ? — Their name is embodied in the scaled agreement, in which Cooper was protected foi- liis iunount if the contract was carried out. 31103. Do you mean that in the new partnership established between voiir tirm and Whitehead there was a condition expressed that Cooper -lioiiltl be secured his claim, and that that is part of the terms of the )!irtiicr>hip ? — Yes; if the contract was carried o\it and he got a half iiiteiv^l in it. 3904. Have )'ou a copN* of that agreement? — I have not got a copy Avilli mo; but I can get a copy in the city here. 39)5. NVcro you aware before that pai-tiiership with Mr. Whitehead KM'w-tc.i part- w:is arranged, that such a ])ai'ttiershi|> between your tirm and Mr. "vhit'-li'.^i't wouldl WhitolieotI was likely to bo carriet include I'ithlado. Natiirn of auree- infMl Willi \Vldti-t\ead. Financial stand- ing; 111 self aiHi (iraiit. at dale of aKri'MiKiiU Could hnrillv sny AV'hat ho and lim jiartni-r were ivorlh. 301 1. Whftt dkl he tell you ?— That ho was talking to Mr. Whitelioad about entering into H jiartnorship with him. I a>. What is their address? — I cannot say where liain has i^one to. 3937. l>id he leave after j'ou sold out ?— No ; he was on thoie quite a •imc. He left hero lately, and 1 think ho has gone on some survey to ;he Xcrth-West ; but McDonnell is «Lill there. 1 think he has a contract ihore now. He is an uncle of the present contractor. 3938. Is there any other matter in which yon had any transaction Contrnct xo. 16. (niiDLvtod with the Canadian Pacific Railway? — Nothing thr' ! know lexeeiit those two transiictions. 3939. Is there any other matter which yon wish to explain connected Foun.i .somr or ... ,^ .^ ,/., ,. rp, . •'^i . ..' / ,1 the WDik so fill- Willi tiio I'acihc Hallway .•' — '1 here is nothing, e.\-ce])t as far as the boiiimi ind.'bt lanying out of the agreement with Mr. Whitehead, that we saw the ''"^J', [jj,>*','}f ,,""!.„ ivork was .so far behiml in debt, more than we expected, that it on wi.rk wiih wmiM hu impossible fijr us to carry on the work to advantage. ♦ ailvantaj;!'. la US ibou' aiy lur I wore \\\) ill CLARK. RaiUvay rou- st rii "I ioii — Conli'arl No« l-t. WiNNii'EH, Thuisdiiy, Kith Soptember, ISSO. |.\!HERT H. Ci'ARK, swom and examined: By the Chairman : — :i940. Do you know anything about the work performed on contract lU'.'-Yes. 3941. Were you engaged on that work? — I was engaged there over Kmpioyedfwo I.VO years. " ^ ° ^ "^ ^earn as walklug 3942. In what capacity ? — As a walking boss or superintendent. 3943. Did the work at the Julius Muskeg come under your know- EeliiL?— Not directly : only 1 have been over it frequently. 3944. The men in your charge were not employed at that portion 1 the work? — No. 3945. Then how did you obtain kriowledge about that work? — I His knowledge of |biiied knowledge of it by being frequently there and passing ove ' ^■■•''■- Jullus .Muskeg. il946. Do you know whether the work performed .at that place was Work dtm-rpnt i«i'nt I'rom the work roquiied under the specification ?— Yes; it was fM"i'".,i'i)M.ier l^roiit m speolilcatloa. ■',. CLARK 260 Knilway <'on- ■trMctloii— Contract No. 14. Contractoi-M* ClaliiiN. Elglity feet lietweeii whoro (tlU'h (liiK and the r-mbankraent. Furthor than they HhouliI hav(> moved eartli. ReKHlor width of •clearing l.ti feet ; of embankment seventeen feet. To disadvantnge of contractors. Wot, s\vaini>y ground Karth had to be ■wheeled on plank to a Kreat ;i> far as they would otherwise have had to do. 3953. You say it had to be wheeled over plank ? — Yes. 3954. All of it?-Yc8. 3955. How were those planks supported? — By temporary tre>;i.' work. 3950. Could the plank not be laid on the natural surface of iiio earth?— No; it could not bo laid on the natural surface, thei'o woiu have to be some blocking put uniier it. 3957. What distance did this ditch continue along tho sido of liw road ? — I do not exactly know, but I should think (bur or tlve miles. 3958. Have you made any estimate of the extra cost of this dlii over a ditch which would have boon properly within the s])ecitic!Uion ' — Yes; I should think, according to my judgment, there wouLl iiave been from 9 to 10 cts. a yard difference. 3959. You mean per yard of the earth excavated in the ditch?— Vw. per cubic yard. 3960. Wholhor it was wasted or put into the embankment ?— I nu-x, the way it was put in, and if it had been put in in the ordiiiarv u;iy it would have made a difference. 3961. I am f.sking whether that 9 or 10 cts. applies to all tii. material that was taken out of the ditch, or only to what was put iiiU' the road-bed ? — Only to what was put into the road-bed. 3962. Some of it was wasted, then? — Yes; it only applies to iIki. j which was put into the road bed. 3963. Do you know how much was put into the road-bed ?—l do ni:.] 3964. Then you do not know the gross amount of tho difforeiKaj which was tho disadvantage to tho contractors? — No. 3905. You only know tho rate per yard cf that which was put into tho road-bed ?— That is all. 261 OLARK rny <^oii< filoii— Mmlli •iriiciioii- ContrMct Noa I4« Coiitrat-tom* ClalniH. yjiM. And you think that was 9 or 10 cts. a yard ? — V'es. :i907. Do j'ou mean that it would cost (ho contractor 9 or 10 ctn. a v;ird more than if the ditch had been built or made according to the ^ntructori'cai'!''^ to 10 clH. IV yiird more than 'if tlio jpecificution ? — Yes ; that is what 1 moan. 3068. So thnt 9 or 10 cts. a yard would not afford him any profit' ^'laiieacvo^'inK lilt would only compensate him for his loss? — That is all. tospecinciuion. 3(169. Do you mean that the contractors would be obliged to pay ,,!• 10 cts. a yard more for getting this work done than if it had been iliino according to spicitication ? — Yea. 30TO. You do not moan that 9 or 10 cents a yard would have boon aiair piice for the contractor to undertake to do it for as incluiliiig hisprotit? — No ; I mean that as an e.xtra price. 31)71. Out of the pocket of the contractor ? — Yes. 3!t72. I low do you ariivo at that price of 9 or 10 cts.?—! have now witno^s liirivcd at it l)y the ditfei-onco in whooliug and difference in plant that pI*.[ooop'Jl.tV''iio ii would (iiko to do that amount of work. That is the way 1 arrived lu cts u yard. at it, and it is generally the mode we take. 3!t73. How many yards a day would one man's labour excavate and move to the line if the ditch wan only ten feet from it? — I had an t-timalo of from fifteen to twenty-five yards in some places. 3!t74. What would it avoijige? — 1 think in that material they would not average more than ten yards a day, that is supposing the liinil was regular. 3!i7r). I am speaking of the ton foot berm through this muskeg. That w mid bo according to specification, would it not ? — Yes. 3H7fi. How much would one man's labour take out and move to the ono innnMubonr line per day from it? — 1 suppose one man would probably take out ten '* ''"•^' • '"' >""'» yiirds of that material. 3977. That is if it woio within the line of the specification ? — Yos. 3978. llow many yaids won Id one man's labour move fr(>ni the distance Ai .li-i.-in..' intiiis at which this ditch was really situated?—! should think that he would yrsevrlr/arlTs.'"''' I'labably move between six and seven yaids. 397!). So tliat at this dislamc a man's labour would move about thioo y;irds per day Iosn than if the ditch were according to spocification ? — Vi's; about that. 3980. What wastho vaiueof one man'.s labour at that tiino? — About \i><)ut i;i:a day S2 per day at thtit tinio. u93i. l)id that cover his boaid ? — Yes. 3982. At that i-ato every nine or ten yards put into the lino would cost how much more than if it batl been put in under s|)ocificatiun ? — I have not figured it. 3983. Does he not lose three-tenths of his price if ten yards woulil w«t 82 under the specification and ho only gets seven yards ilmie for it under the work as actually executed'? — L suppose about ^ that. ^984. Von must have gone thi-ongh this process to have arrived at Askoi tu.xpinin. tlio co>t in your own mind. You did not guess at the 9 or 10 cts. a ! v:u'd?— No ; I wont thio igh it so ot\en that I know it. till' value Mtflli-tiOM— Coiilrnvt Ko. 14. CoNlrNftoi'H* CImIiiih, Pripo foroxfnvat- Inif liiif illU'lies uncicr sptM'ltlca- tloii, L>i its. Not umiimI to WllKlc IIIHtl'I'lllI Cdiiiiim mil III llni'illti'lii'>. Cause (>f liiss. Knows line lietwi'on Broken- lifiid ami VVliiie- MlOlltll. Cliiingn of line between those points ilisitdvan- taj^oous to contractur. (^harnctpr of both line."* compareil. 3985. Tlioii if yoii are laiuiliHr witli it becuu-so yoii liavc g,,:,,, tfiroiit^h it so otloii, will you oxj)luin it to n»o ? — I coulii notcomo iim,!, uoai-cr to it. I have ^ivon you tlio (iiiantity a man would inuveui that (listanco, and how much he would move at the other. 308*). Do yoti know what price tl>o contractors wore to have lu excavatintj line ditches under the specification ? — 1 never haw thu i;,^.. tract, hut as far as I heard it was 2G cts. a yard. 3'.t87. Have you made any estimate of the etirth that was wastoii oir of this excavation in the Juliu.s Muskeg? — Mo; 1 have not. 39>i8 VVas it u.sual to wa.sto any of the material which came out uf the line ditches within the limits of the s|)ecitication ? — It is not umi^ to waste it at all, unless there is an over balance of what is waiilcil i: the embankment, and then, of course, it is wasted. 3()S!>. I suppose it costs no more to the contractor to waste cuith on the outside of this ditch than it would to waste earth on a line iliici within the limits of the specification ? — So. 3IM)0. So that on the item of earth wasted you do not tldnk there ii any loss to the contractor ? — I do not thitik tliero is any loss in that respect. They were not rerjuired to move it any further awa^- tliaiiili.' side of the ditch, if it weie not req^uirod to be put into the emImiiK ment. 3M91. Ft was moving the material an extra distance which loJ to thi} loss to the contractor? — Yes, 3992. Throe-tenths of the price to the contractor at 26 cts. wouli amount to something under 8 cts. Is the balance of the 9 or In cts. that you speak of applicable to the ci keil l)\ h')r>. - (iroiiiiil iJriiT ami ihiTflorc riioro I'lisliy woi'kfil. iloiie Willi hiirnes mill scraiHM-s I'ur oiic-lhird IcsH tluiii ill uiiy otlicr WH.V. DoiK' Willi wlieeN liairow.i. 4tni, What difference do you think it would make to tho contractor lMiror.>nc<«of froiu - - - ... li to 7 per ci'iit. to I'oiiiructor. ill tho cost to him ?— 1 should thiiik in tho nei;;bourhooi of between ti j and 7 per cent. 4012. Do you mean that the same quantity of material vsould cost Ibimtlor? poj- cent, more for moving it on the south lino than it 1 would cost him if he had to move it on tho north line? — Yes. 4013. I understand you are not able to say what tho aggregate cost [would be, but you establish that as tho basis of calculation ? — Yes. l( I were going to take the piece of work, 1 should take that figuie as a 4014. About what proportion of the whole |('mi,' lino? — No; 1 have not sulHtiontly j^onc through it to know. BIRRELLi Ja.mes ItiRREi.r., sworn and examined : Bii the Cfutirman : — FrnirrAfiiKiK- 4017. l>id Mr. .1. II. Frasor ^i vc yoii any docunicnt to give t' th, Comini.ssion ? — IIo insti'ucted rao to ^et thirt ilocumcnt from Mr. Hii;g>. It wan in his otHce. 4018. And at liis reciue.st vou now produce it? — Yes. (Kxliil)I' Xn. in.) U hltt IMH)! pMrtn<:rNlil|». 8IFT0N. JIalUvii)- Coii- Mtriiftloii— Conlrnft Iko. 14. Clulm f<»r «oiri r llalii*!. SpcrillcJit inn .lot'^ lint i-ovor Culler (laiiKs. Mfirnis .Sinilli's opinion and instructions. .lonv W. Sikton's examination continued : By the Chairman : — 401'.'. What is the next item upon which you make any claim, .di. the ones you have previously alluded to? — Item No, 5, for coth-r ilam- 4020. Will you explain why it is that you consider you have a rhiim updU that head? — In tho first place it is usual, under all contracts that 1 ever had, to bo paid extra for cotter dams. It is impossible toestiinni. thorn, atid unlos there is a special provision made to cover them in iht lipociticalion we are usually paid lor them by day's work. 4021. Were tho cotl'or dams built at tho direction of tho Govoriuiiont engineer, or entirely at your own option ? — They have to be put up in certain cases. In this case it was impossible to do tho work witlinii' putting up colVor dams. 4022. Would it be impo.ssible U> do tho wtn-k without got tiiii; iiki. there also ? — Yes. 4028. Then why do you chaige extra for putting in coffer d;tins tor doing Work that yoii couM not pei l()rin without them ?— In the tii<' place it is usual, where tho specilications do not cover these items, t. have them p:»id tbr by the diiy. Wc! claim that the speciticatioinliiJ not cover this work, and we broiinht the matter to the notiio otthel acting Cliiot Kngiiieer. 4024. Who was that?— Mr, Marcus Smith. Mr. Smith said he had not studied the specification, but that he would look over it that iiii,'li: and see whether it covered it or not. " It it is does not cover it," said, '* you certainly have a right to bo paid for it under the contiact,! or tho clause which provides that any work which is not cove rod I}'! the spccitication shall be jmid for by adding 15 percent, for tools, AcT Mr. Smith lookod over tho spccitication, and concluded that it did n"t| cover this item of work, and said to mo and my brother — we wore boiiil together — " (Jo on with this work and keep an account of it, and Iwilr instruct the engineer in charge of the work to keep an account, so thatj 26S SIFTOM llallwav Com* •Iriiittioii— [,o can fortily to your billn every monlli." Wo charged the ai-tuul J;oniViirior«'**' unioiiiil of lal)our expended on tlio work, adding to it (ho !'> per cent, cmimn. allowed hy tho HpeciHcation. The engineers on the work certiHed to ihoso billc, and they are the correct hil!-, which are produced in thin item. KCi'). Did Mr. Smith's remarks apply to Hpecial hridgos at 8tati(»ns i7'»), .'{8H> and 3%'0, as well as the one at (he Whi(einou(h centre (lijinnel ? — Yoh ; it ap[)lied to any place where it became necessary. \{)26, Then his remarks wore general, and not relating onlv to lb»^ •"^''"''''"•^'"'^V'^.. |,;irti(Milar spot ot which you were upenkmg at the timer — No ;niis ^eutniiiy. ;t'marks were general, and the insd-uctions to tho engineers were to I'xumiiie and keep account of the labour we expended on such works. 4027. Do you moan that his instructions were to your engineer ? — Vc.H. 1028. Were you present when he gave those instructions? — I was not [trcsent ; but they had instructions, and they acteil utuler those ji.structions. 402'.'. Were those instructions in writing, do you know? — I could iiot tell you, but 1 can tind out by some oC the engineers in charge. 4030. Did tho engineers tell you that they had those instructions? -Vi's, they were very })articuliir in their accounts always. They kept 'he days so that they were able to certily exactly to the amount of labour tliat was done. 4031. Is there anything lurthor about that item ? — No. 4032. What is tho next item ? — Tho next item is loss in delay caused hv teaming of plant, kc , from Fisher's Landing to Winnipeg, instead nt' bringing it by boat. Tho amount 8.35)5 is the actual dirterence that il would have cost us at this point if wo could have brought it a month jiievious by boat. 4033. What is tho next item ? — The next item is roads that were iiiiulo by us tor tho cairying on of tho work. Our s|)eciticulioii and (iinlract bind us to provide all our own roads for canying on the work nl' tills contract. Wo came in here when there were no roads at all — 111 this country east of Red Jiiver. We expected to have to do that, lilt (luring tho time of carrying on our works the (iovornment was i.arn ing on works on section 15, and building engineers' houses along llie line of road. They were taking out their supjilies, and much of the cost and labour of keeping u[) these roads Avore occasioned by the amount ■ irstiitV that was taken over them by tho (Jovcrntnent. They used iliom, and we asked for an allowance. Mr. Eowan and Mr. Smith both ••aid wo had a reasonable claim for allowance, as all wo could be asked 111 do was to keep up roads for ourselves, and wo were keeping them up for (he (jrovernment. Tho last year and a half of this time there v.is a largo amount of stuff taken over our roatl for contract 15, and (iikeii over tho road-bed of 14, and we had to expend a large un\ount of niotiey to put it in bhapo again. 4034. Do you mean tho roadbed of the railway line? — Yes; (here were places in which they could go nowhere else, and we had to go over our work again and put it in shape. Cliiiin for loss Ii.- ili'lay liy It-wiii- illK |llMllt. I'liiiiii for loss In i'i'|iaii'iti<; MiiKKMii roHi of makin:,' aiid inaintainini,^ this road frotn the bei^inninj^ until the limo thai ili,. (iovei'nmenl ceased to use ii ? — Duiing oui- time of it ? Toini cost (>r roar three miles ill one place, and tlueo or four miles in anolln'; wIkib it was bolter for the teams lo go on than tho I'oad through tlii; woods. 40H!>. How much of tho road bed of tho railway line was used fonhc tradic which \ oil dt'scribi; ? — .Sometimes theio were only a very I't'u- miles Used, and thou at other limes when there would bo a severo raiii tho teams would turn ou the road-bed wherovcr they could g(!t lii chanco. 4040. Do I understand that your item of 813,000 was for the roa'i^ made outside of tho railway line? — All with tho exception of about 8400 or ,r'>"0— I could not give tho exact amount — that wa.s for lovei- ling this road. 4041. So that tho co.'st to you of putting tho railway lino in orilor after it had been used for carrying in supplies for section 15, would i.r amount to more than 6500 altogether? — No. 404"2. Tho highest would bo for tho preparation of the roads, ani keeping thorn up outsid) '^^tho railway line altogotbor? — Yes. 4043. 1 suppo.se that if the road had never been used for the suppiiei* nn section 15, you would have been obliged to build a road for your oww purposes ? — Yes. 404 i. What would it have cost you to build the road for your own purposes alone ? — I dj not think it would have cost me more than hait' that amount. 40^5. Do 3'ou mean that tho ocnstruction of the road amounted t' about halfof this 818,000, or more ? — Yos ; I think that the construclioi of the road amounted to less than 8I.'J,000. The construct' jn of the road amounte 1 to perhaps §4,000 or 85,000, and the keeping of it up to tho balance. 404G. I am asking, first of all, what the construction of the road ci>t? — That is what 1 am not certain about. !Hl3,»KI0claliiU'r roails oi'* -ide of railway .aic, <'Xi-ept. *.">(Hi I'or level Mum; t'lis. A road I'or tlic use ol section 14 alorn' would not have ■cost more than Jiaif. (^ 267 SIFTON C'laiiii far W'mg- goit ■»a,^ A- nn.r.'.' .1 1- . ■ , ^ i ( 'olisl rUCl lull ill DOiliaps 84,000 or $o.000 tfjr tnu hrst construction ot the mail. loa.iost iiIm)ui 404^. Was the balance of tliis item incuiToii hy iho repaii-ing of the rnail ?— Vcs 4O4O. At difl't.Meut times? — Yes; at iliU'orent times. We liad coii- ^tanlly to keep on the men repairiiii^ the roads on ai count ot the i,(ivernniont. 40riO. Hut tlie oi'iiiinal cost of construi'tion you would havo hail to licar at all events whether the CJovcruinent use.l it afterwards or not? -Vos. 40.51. Vou do not think the Government ou;^ht to share any part of iliiu item ? — Xo. 40.')2. Then, after it was constructed, did you briri^ over the road riiuio supplies than the (iovernment did? — So; 1 think not, 411.).!. I'D you mean that the (Tovernment used it as much as you did (oiistru<-i.Mi 11 after it was constructeii ? — I think they used it more. You understand syM*^iIJi",''''-,'Vi'.Vi/'^'" 'iiat a large amount of supplies were taken to 15 hy the contractor, rnistrtion li. ' in; iude that with what went for the Governm.nit. 40;') i. You mean supplies u.sed by the contractors ? —Yes. 4055. Then why should the Government psiy for the contractors ;,'i.tting 8up])lios over the road ? — 1 ilo not know ; we had not anything;- IimIo with it. They went over the road and it would iiavo been pretty Imi-d to stop them. ,, , » f iovt>ri)ment 4056. I understood you to say that the Govornrient used the road lli^^'supjlu-'s Vo^' i'lr takiiu in supplies for buildini; the ent'ineer ' ii ou, os ? — Yes. buiM enginei-is' •^ ' ' , liouses. 405". Xow, for that use of it by tiio (rovernm jnl, how much was it ivortli?— I think it would amount to one-tbuih of the u.se of the road. 4058. And bow much did the contractors ui^e your road lor their l)urp.)S08 ?— I think the contractors for 15 took as much stutf over It as we did altogether. 4059. At that rate you would use the road to the extent of four- iiimhs; the contractors to the extent of four-ninths, and the Govern- ment to the extent of cne-ninth ; have you estimated it as closely as (hat tor tiio sake of ascei-tuining the proportion that eaeh i>arty used it?— I do not think I h.ive, 40(50. You understand what I mean ? I wish you to separate, for the present, the amount of use vhieh the Government iiad of your road, as 'iislinguished from the amount of use which the contractors had of it. Can ycu do that? — Yes; 1 think I have done that in my answer. Yoar exjlanation of it is right. 40(U. You think that the ])roportiona I have named are tht correct I'roijortions, as far as you can judge ? — Yes, 40ij2. Then taking the tirst cost, which you assumed to be 85,000, (iovoinmont uso ii'oin the whole item a balance would be left of 88,617. Krom what about oiie-nintii. you«n\ you ihink the Government, for its purposes, had the utseofthe roa^l ' the extent of one-ninth after the construction ? — Yes. 4003. Do you mean by that, that the expense of keeping it in repair forthe solo uso of the Government would be equal to one-ninth of the I* **•• SIFTON Claim for Wag- Vou Boadat Am-.— rontract No. 14. 268 f'osl of ri'pmrlnj,' WIlH^;i)I> ri)U(l for I hn'c .v(';irs from .*">,0 during that tirue. 4068. Do you mean (hat for the tirst three j'ears, the (ioverniiiLMit, for its own pui'posos, u.sed your road to an extent equal lo about oiic. tifth of the whole use ? — Yes. 4069. What would the balance of the time bo? — The balance ; year only twenty miles, our " toll reads " as we call them, and extcniic! tliem as we went on with the work. Then it became necessary to buii'l in .some places very ])ermanent works. 4076. Were you requested to make your iirst construction more solid or nicne permanent? — No ; they did not request us at all. They saiil nothing to us about these roads. 4077. You did ihvA of your own option ? — Yes. 4078. But you say _^^ou spent more on them because you expeetoi! more travel over tl m than your own ? — Yes; they wereti'avollini,Ni!i them all the time. They had let the contracts to build their eiigiiiciT? houses. 4070. lias the item for this use of the roads been under the consi't oration of any of the engineers? — It has been under the consi()eratio:i of Mr. IJowan, who has reported on it. I do not know what liis report is. Wo up'ierstood in Ottawa that Mr. Marcus Smith had reported on 269 SIFTON Hallway Oon> Mtruction - this item, but wo know nothing ub ('onti'ficl provides t iiHl in <•)!«<' of delay tliiTf Klioitid lt<> nil «''iuiviilant exlcii- Mou of I line. Tinio snfli(;ienll,v extended. Lo8tnot)iing. But thinks an increase of (luan- tity ut a late period ought, to 1)0 l'avourai>Iy i'onslUered. 4001. I am aslcintf you if tlio quatitity liuil boon on llio nrif.iniil lim what would it have cost yon ? — It would have mado no ditVertMiCL-. 4092. The >;hange in location iiuule no difference in the cost? — No. 401>3. So that the change of line is not the basis ofyom- claim, tinles>. the lalvini; out of the same (luantily on the other line w )uld havt' c'(t>t N'oii le^^s ? — It is. 4004. Do you claim that the taking out of "^.'i, 700 j-ards on (ho tiiM line would have l»een the foundation of a claim for extras ao;ainst tho Governnient ? — I Ini: ruasonai)le that information t-hould he given within ii reasonable time befiire the contract runs out. 4008. Does not your contract provide that if you are delayed in the work any particular lime you should get an extension for a siinilui' ])criod to complete it ? — Yes. 4000. And that the time in tiddition for completing it shall be :i compensation for the time which voii were delayed in commencing- if- —Yes. 4100. Have you hud that additional time? — ^Ve have bad the ielay. 4101. Then have you not had the coippensatioti ? — Xo ; we have no: liad the delaj'. because I contend 't would have taken tho whole tirni; to have finished that east end mere than it would on tho other. Wc ought to have been made acquainted with that fact simulianeously wiili the commencement of the contract. 4102. It was not some of the work which you banded over (o Mi, Whiteheail ? — .No ; we handeil over a little of it, but it was a uiattcr oi request that we should stop. 4103. But you have had sufficient time to take it out? — Yes; aiidwt took it out. 4104. So that you have had extension of time suffi iient to euaMeyoii to do it ? — Yes, 4105. You have lost nothing by being enabled to do it in the extcnlcJ time? — ^lo ; we lost nothing, because we got time to finish it. 4106. Is there anything further about that itom which you wish to say? — Nothing, only just this: that all our rock cuttings cost us more for doing it than the contract price. Whatever was in the schedule wo accepted, as we would be obliged to do that anyway, whatever it would cost us, but the increase of the quantity at that late day, wo consider, ought to be favourably considered in the settleuiont. 4107. Do you mean that you have no claim for it under your coii- tru'-t, and that the all )wance of it would be as a favour more thtui as a right ? — 1 have no claim under our contract except for delay. as lini,>-lied -.vcre iiske 1 t (•olore, and ill 271 SIFTOM Mli-iicilttii — < oiitinct Aua 14. Next iti'iii : ••l.iiin on )i('<'i>iint iif ^••'Iklrk M«Hlif>ii (•■'Ollllli. 4l()8. You do not claim it as a ri^lil, but ask fur it a-i a favour ? — Y- sxi;{i'\d a iai\i;c amount ot work that we liad not calculattHl on doing. 4;0!'. What is your next item '.■' — Selkirk Station Ground, No. 0. 411(1. Was tliat in your orignal c-ontract I* — Vos ; wo had to compUte w-.tk th, ysiioni ,,' station giound. Wi' wore obliged under our eontraci to do any viik on the section tiiat wo might be ordereil to |>orfoi-m. This station ,fas lini>luHl, |>aid for, and taken olV oiii' hands as complete. Then we •.viie :i>l they wished to enlarge the ground, »liange the Taioand prepare it for l)Uil(ling an engine house. Wo went back todo not liiivi' lif^fii citlli'il on til ilo. :k'\vorl but wlien it was laid out we louml that it was not work thai we ,iir|)t to be called upon to do undor our conliact, as it iiad been done iottire, and if we were called liack to do it, it should bo done as the con- vict provided, by day labour. It liapjiened that the aeting Kngineer in- (hiif, , Ml. Smith, was away just at the time wo commenced, but Mr. Niiiili, Mr. Jtowan, Mr. Thompson, the Division Kngineer, my brother ,11(1 myself, met on the gr«)und where the wvu'k was being ilone, anil 1 ileil Mr. Smith's altonlion to the matter. He looked over it, and said Maicn- SihiiIi'k ■ would think about it. '^ Well," I said, " we are going on wi'h the XumVoU.V '''"•'' k now, but we w^mt to know whether wo are tt) bo paid for it, »«>"i>i»ii"i i" t Thomp- [leave this inattor in the hands of the J)istrict Kngineer, Mr. H()wan, txVn,'';,7ri!Ulr'''' anJ the Division Kngineer, Mr. Thompson, and let them settle on the .vanu. ixti'u amount.'" He said: " We will not pay you by the day. We do jiiot want any work done that way that we can help, but," s'lid he, thoy will settle on tlio extra amount you arc entitled to revcive for i,' 1 saiil I was satisfied with that.; 1 was satisfied that they would j(io what wivs rigfit, and i)erfectly satisfied to accept their decision on iic natter. I lalled their atlenlion to it some time after and they did •fiiiodii the price, and gave usa statement as to the amount they would In.'m. The}' ulhnved us 24 cts. extra on l'J,3G4 yards. 4112. Who allowed that ?— .Mr. Howan and Mr. Thompson. |ii3. Did tliey certify to it ?— They certified to that, and made a .turn recommending it under the iristru<'ti<)ns given to them by Mr. Miiitli. \\U. So that your claim is not for the whole price of that material ; Mask for the ditt'erenee over your et>n tract price ? — Yes, we just ived to whatever they would do. ^^^ 4115. Is there anything further on that item that you wish to say ? fi'.'.J^'JJs hf cfHim*' -There is no'.hint!; further vu that item. on hiu ha«ked =■ lip l»y Whitc- 41]*i. Is there an}' other item about which you have not spoken ? — ''«««•• 1 want to refer to item No. 10 again, as you a.>ked nie on a i)revious t,we»'u "oniiaVt iccasion l(,i some tiiiures on that matte'. Our claim for item No. 10 V'^'V ""'*.^^'''"°" 11 1 1 • .V. I . ....•.• -i 1 .Li lii'nd'8 price ibasi'd on tlie iitTiu'ence between our lontract price for it and the ciaimeu. krici' we contracted with iMr. Whitehead to complete the work for. Tiei(Mvere liiroe fills to be done by Mr. Whitehead. The first of those \v;if, Mjcaied at station 3980. In that till there was 37,005 \ardfi SIFTON 9" > bAiikrd liy WhltehevMi— Contract No. 14* Filial Ntiit Ion :Ht80, 37,(Xk'i yardH j>u(i In, liiiiiU-(t U.ani feet. Fill alHtatlon 39«n, l.'i.SlKf.viir.ls put In, liiiulud 1 1,1(10 foct. Fill lU stullon iu;i, l7r,,M\~ yiirds, put In and hauled V2,rmu-v.i. Total amount of dlft'ort'i'.ce l)o- twocn I'onlrai't j>rl('e and W'lilte- licild's price !^'JIO,K«a.H;i. Erlra luuil l.'.'iiii) ft. inssl.'.iHi ll,.!(ill ft. Opiional ^vlth tiovernmtnt 1u fill or trestle the voids. put in. It Wiis liatiled un avei-ago di.stanoo of 9,200 feat. I am not very Hin'o that m} fi/iCtiros aro correct or not. Tlio dirtoroncte in M, Wliitt'head's |)iico and in tlio contract we made would bo 8J4,4:.,'!.;i(i in tliat Hll. The next til! is at Htation 3!>9H. In that fill there \v,m, 15,;i!K) vi'.'dH, which was hauled an average distance of 11,100 feei The ditVerenco in that till Ix'twoon the «vibcontract with Mr. Wliitehen; and the (lovcrntnciit price to us, is 812,fi27.t)0. In the third lill, ai station 4i 13, there were 175,56". yards. That was hauled an avorai'i^ distance of 12,500 feet, and the iitl'erence between our contract jiriic for it and the price paid to Mr. Whitehead, wa.s $ 173,812, I>3. Tii, total amount is $210,8(;3.83. •1117. Have you estimated what it would be at the contractor's in-iiv 40 ctH. ?— No. 4118. Jiow did you arrive at the lens must be wrong some w:iy or other. If \ iiv extra haul was 12, i)00 feet upon an average, that would be SI.!'.') ! n every cubic yard hauled ? — No ; deduct the 1,200 feet. 412 1. I thought this was after deducting the 1,200 feet. I a^ked y i; jtarticularly al)Out that ? — I did not undei^iaiid you. That is (ho tuia 4125. Then that i.s the average haul, and not the average oxiia haul ? — Yes. 4r2tl. In your contract was there any provision for com])letiiigthosi' voids it» any other way than by earth cmiiankments '^ — No ; tho.v never was any other way spoken of or intimated whatever. That ii the way il was calculated to be tilled. 4127. T f^upposo the hauling of the onrfh was done fiy curs ;ini engines ? — Yes ; it was done by raachijiery. 4128. Did you ever consider the probable cost of bridging ovoi- ili '- voids instead of tilling them with earth embankment '.■'—1 novi:' estimated it. ^g^ 4129. ^Yas there a clause in j'onr agreement with tiie Governnen', by which they were permitted to omit this work if they tlioiii?li! proper? — There is -lO doubt about that. They could have put in timhi!' if they wished. 4130. Had they the privilege of omitting this work from your con- tract if they vished ? — No; not of omitting it. They would liuvehiW to do it with timber or some other way. 4131. lint there was a provision by which they could have piittio^tlo work into it if they pleased ? — The general term of the contract: allouvl 4147. Mr. ^Y\ m4o SIFTON ■trnctlon— them to put in trestle work wherever they saw fit, I take the contract *'•»*•■"*■**• **• iiidspocification to mean that, but it would have been a very costly job to have put in trestle work. 4132. Were these fills, an you call them, over water strotchos ? — No ; they were across gullies principally. The last till was a neck of Cross Lake. 4133. Then would a large j)roportion of those fills require rock bases Aiar^pportionof lor trestle work?— Yes; I think a large proportion of them would ?,l!.kTrH'»'!,'";or"'™ leqiiiic lock bases. They would have found rock in some places by trestio work. .>iieaci imvJo U' :ilvv;iys looked upon that as the best part of our work, and wo had |^oV"i'uiT»>f wVirk. notroliations with Mr. Whitolioad to soil him out our intejvst al» )Ut that limo. Uo made us an otter foi" it; and il wo had not looked upon it as iho very host part of our work wo would have aecoptod it. 4 138. ^ou say that Mr. Whitehead made you an offer? — Yes. 41.30. l>o you mean to take from your hands the work which was Mil completed ? — ^'os. 4140. And do you say thai his orTcr had reference to this portion of iviirk which you had not coniplotcJ ? — ^'os. 4141. Had il any i-oforeiKO tp a much larger j)Ortion ? — Not much 41 12. You think that his ofVor was for the pui'po&e of gaining the profit 'II this portion ? — Yos. 4143. Do you remember what ho offered you ? — 1 think it was $50,000. wiiiteii.ad il was to Mr. Farvvoll ho m:ido the olfor. ""■^■•*^^'' *'^'''"^« 4U4. Do you not think it was $55,000? — I could not say. 4145. Do you romomboi- thi't you oiforcd to sell il to him at a rortain Prnp.»ser indoiii- iWty for ^5,iHKi jflven to Whllo- lieud to iiNSure liiiii work would lio dotif HO UN not to dfluy him. Ctnlnis hIso for i itere>t. 41HK ll(»\v Inpi;- liu 1 tlu\y t'lidoil beforo tliis now iwrjui^cinoiil w;,. iiuulu witli Mr. Wliiteheail ? — I could not say; but I ehould think llim, or lour months. 415U. Tlien it was not about tho tiino that you nuide the arratiginiout witii him that ho was ottering to buy you out?— No. 4151. So that in that you are mistaken? — No. 4152. I understood you to say that abo'it this time Mr. Whitclioal was ortbi'iri,' to ijuy you out ? — It made no difVoionco. It was this cikI of the work that he was anxious to get hold of as it had the prorit in it. 415 {. J)o you mean that at the time you made the arrangement witi, Mr. Wliitehoad, you had the option of taking his otter of 850,000, or ot' fompletitig the work tliroiigh liim as a sub-fontractor ? — No; we had !.ot entei-ed into any particulars with hitn at all at that time. The other rugoliations had entirely broken off. 4154. I understood you to intimate that at the time yon could li;iv>i done something very favourable to yourself ? — We could have done su befoi'c, but j»t that time we never spoke of rcnewinfj old negotiations ;u all. We haiTil>'^f'*'d ot myself, in charffe, one transit man, otic levellor, one ;l^sista^t leveller, rod man, and two chain men, and about twenty-tivo a\c men and packers. 4lt;7. About thirty-two in all ? — Yes ; about thirty-two I should think. 4l(i8. Who had charL'^e of providing you with supplies? — I laiher ;hiiik it was Mr. Alph. .iones who sent in suj)])lies fi-om Thunder Hay. Tlieie was a eomniissai-iat officer attached to eacli paily ; my coiu- injsjsariai otticor wa.s Mr. John Breden. Ho accompanied me. 411)0. ^'^aH that in addition to the numbei" you mentiontMJ? — Yes; 1 had not nienLionod him. 4170. Was he subordinate to Mr. Jones? — I think so. 4171. Had yf)U any immetliate control over your commissariat ofticer ? —Vos we acted in concert with le^jjard to getting in the supjtlios. 1 iiLstructod him-as to what HU))plioH I wanted, and ho took mean.s to procure *hem for me. After November, 1871, or during tho month of November, he i-eceived orders to remain in tiio woods the whole winter. It was not contemplated at first that we wore lo remain out all winter, iiiiil I then despatched a raan to Hed IJivor to purchase supplies. 4172. Who was that ?— Mr. (_Jray. 4173. To whom did he make apjtiioation ? — I sent him in here to Ml'. Bannatyno to purchase what supplies weiv needed. 4174. Had Mr. Bannafyne any connection with tho Pacific Kailway? -No; he kept a general store hero. 4175. Were you autliorized to take that step, or was it loft to your fiwn discretion ? — No ; I took it on my own responsibility. The party were out there and the supplies were nearly i-un out, and J found it a great saving of time to got; them in Winnipeg rather than wait until I iTOtlhera from Thunder Bay. My supplies arrived from here sooner ihan the supplies sent from Thunder Bay. 4176. Did you allow \-oar messenger to use his own discretion as to the prices he was to pay ? — No; there were no orders left as to prices. The instructions to the messenger were to obtain tho supplies on the understanding that those who furnished them should draw on Mr. I Fleming for the amount contracted for at Ottawa. We had a small hum of cash furnished to us at the outset, S50, which did not amount I to much for that purpose. 4i77. J \^i8h to ascertain now the means by which the pi'ices of those |;iiiiplie8 were fixed ?— I presume they were the ordinary current prices lieie. 1 l>ad no control over tho prices my.self, except that duplicate m • 1 1 I'lirty n. Hasc nl' snp)illc's nt 'I'luiiulcr Hiiv, liKi iiilli'H lioin' CDiiiiiU'riceiiicnt of work. .si/.c ()( Pill ly Ihlrly-lwo ill at SuppllOK. .Si-nl (Jrny to Wiiiiilpt'i; ro piir- chaHo snpp'leii Iroiii ISttinifityiiiN Instnictloni: to messenger as to maimi'r of ob- taining suppUes. Prices of goods 1 1 f JARVI8 27G Hnrvtyn— Parly M. itf. nimciiityor writing HllJipllCh. •"(iiisiiiiiimI tin I hi' way liy siijil'ly party. S\iiipH('« scut fnim Tliundcr Biiy iu!iil«iiii!iie. Oiief Enniiioor scut instriK^tions To remain out ■(lurinf!; winter ami stated tliat sup- plies and winter clothing would be sent. invoices were sent with tlio ^ool.s to mo. I knew tlie priro^ an I certified to receiving the goods. The mutter of prioos was of no con- corn to mo. 4178. Then you loft the prices of the goois to bo Hottlod butwouii the party who HUj)plied tlicm und lliouiithoritios at Oituwa ? — Voi. 4179. Do you remember when you got tho invoice whether, in your opinion, the prices were reasonable or unroa-tonubio ? — Tho prices a])poarod to me to bo high, biit hardly more than I expoctol tliern to lie here at tiiat tinio. Tlio phico was very isolated, una wo could im: expect to get them lower under the circumstances. 4180. J)itl you make any representation to tho authorities at Ouawa upon the sid)jeet of ])i'ices ? — N'o ; I did not. I .simply reported iti' liut of whut 1 had done. 4181. As to the supplies which wore sent to you from Tliunder iJiv duiiiig the first season, do you lemonihor wliethor there was aiiv dillieulty in getting what was Kuilicient to support your party ? — I: was wvy late in the season, I renieiuber, when wo received the(n, anu owing, ])robably, to tho length of tho journey, the supplies were vuiv nearly all consumeil by the j)arties bringing them in. When tln' suj)plies that were supposed to last us over the winter arrived we Wvw loiTod to send in here for more, they were so near!}' exhausted. 4182. That is supjdies for the winter season ?— Yes ; the on!v sujiplies we received from Thunder 13ay weie clolhingand supplies iIkh were supposed to do us for tho wintei-. 4183. Did you mako any reprosoniations to any person at Ottawa a> to tho state of atfairs ?— 1 reported at Ottawa the stale of atl'airs. 418k Do you remember, in round numboi-s, tlie value of the su))|ili>-. which you ju'ocured from Winni})eg lor thai winter? — I do not. TIio>l' that 1 individually proc'.red I may possibly tell, but others were piv- cured about Chi-istmas, when another commissariat oflieer \va> appointed. Mi*. iJreden left me al tho beginning of the winter, aiM Mr. W. E. Jones was appointed as the commissariat ottieer to my pariy and the next party east of mine — the party undei- charge of Mi-. JanK'>. 4185. Were the supplies that were sent from Thunder Bay fur Uia' winter veiy inadequate ? — Entirely inadoiiuale. 4186. Do you know whether you had enough for one-half of tin- winter or one-quarter, or can you state any jtortion of tho time f/i which they were probably eufficicnt ?— l^robably not enough for oiu month, 1 should think. 4187. You liad to ask, as I understand, for enough to be sent froiii Thunder Bay to keep you during the winter? — No; wo did not ask at all. The instructions came from Ottawa from the Chief Engineer w remain out during the winter, and stating that supplies and winter clothing would be sent to us, not mentioning the course they would take or the name of llie person in charge of them. 4188. And it was after that that the si.pplies you speak of arrived?— Yes ; some time after that. 4189. But not in sufficient quantities ? — No, not in suflSc'ont quantities: except the Avintei- clothing. The winter clothing was ample. 277 JARVIS Niirvrya — I' •It)- M. 4100. Then on thiit enierj^ency you (K'cided to send a mosscniror to iiow hfcamf to Winnipog ?— No; I did not maky mysolf wutiU-iontly v\mr. Wlion 1 ?;;r"I.,I;;,^' """'"''' riist arrived at WhitoHsh Buy tlio snpplios wore very nearly oxhauKiod. 1 ihon hcnt u moHHcngor to \ViMni))i'<^ tor HuppliuH with a iettor lor tho Chiof Knt;inoer reporting what I had dono, and of courso my siipplio.'* niuliod mo het'oro my roport roarhcd Mi". Kleiniii^. ll!'l. Those wore supplies tor the fall? — Vos ; my moKscn^or only iiiuriied lute in SoptcMilicr fi'oni hero. The other Mipplies thai I spnke ,it as heini; sent in lor the winter, were sent in, I .suppose, hy orders tidm lK'ail(|uaitcrs. Il!t2. Were those which you oi'dered from Winnipeg for the winter snppii, soniind ,,r only to eumplete the survey? — <.'niy to completo the sumnuM-'s JI',,),Y'|""lMml-* uoiK. lui r'-. w(jrk. H!'i5. Was it alter that you reeoived the notice thai you were to riiiiain out during the winter, and that HU]»plies would be forwariled to you ? — Ves. 4104. Vou expected supplies to ho forwarded sullicient to maintain viiu ilnrinj^ to winter? — Yes, 4103. Did they come in sullicient quantity ? — No. 4l0(i. How was tlie deficiency made up? — The deficiency wa.s made sum. i -ni mii>- i|i alter the appointment of Mr. Jonos as commissariat oHicoi*. He hat have nu)re sujiplies im- mediately. 4107. Do you know from whom he got those supplies ? — Ho purchased : hem from ditt'erent persons: Mi\ HatuuUyne, the Jlud.-on Jiay Co., I'r. Schultz, and o'her.s who were keeping stoics. 4108. There wns no officer appointed at that time in tliis locality to furnish supplies on tho Government account called a purveyor, or ;iny poison of that kind ? — No; there was no purveyor. A certain sum w;is placed to the credit of Mr. Jones with the Deputy Receiver-General here, and ho made use of that money. That was a matter entirely lit'tween my commissariat ofluor and tho Deiiurtment. 1 had no contnd liver it at all. 410;'. Was any work dono on the surveys that winter ?— Yes ; we Avoiked the whole winter. 4200. Still progressing westward ? — Yes; we worked until theSOiIi ot .Maich, when we i-eached Ecd llivor. 4201. I underf^tand that your line which you speak of was from ^Vhitetish Bay in the first instance, to the point known as Keewutin ? — Yes; Keewatin, or Eat Portage. 4202. Can you indicate the direction from that point westward any distance? — The present location is almost identical with my line very nearly to Whiteraoutli Eiver. 4203. And then ? — And then I struck more directly for Red River — that is, more directly for Winnipeg — than tho present line does. I Systftii of sniijily First lino from WliUi'iisli Bay to KeowiUiii. F-rt'sent localon on siiine line Ironj Kat Portagf to ncarWhUi'Uiouth Hiver, whor.ce \vu iietss siriick more directly for WInnlppji than the present Une. I * .1 • : I * I ' " ,. ,' ' IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I ■^illM IM i_3 6 lllll^ 2.0 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 -* 6" — ► Photographic Sdences Corporation ^ (l a loca- tion oil papor. Cross sect lonod portions oi' line. OwInK to changes in location, not l)088ll)le to compare the quautitit's. Witness's plans and data hurnod \ip in the Hri' In II le Pad tic Rull- wiiy offices, Ottawa, i-eachid Roil River at a point ten miles north of this, about iialfwMv between hei-e and the Stone Fort. 4204. That survey was complotcdin March, 1872? — Yes; about Uic 30th of iMarch. 420.5. Did you i-emain under an en^'agemont with the Government after that survey ? — I did. 420(i. What was your next work? — After paying my men, my as,. Will you tell me what data you mean when you say " insutti- cient data." Do you mean the data you had were not sutfioiont in accuracy, or that you had not the data at all that were necessary?— We had sufficient data to complete an approximate location — that i.s to say, we were enabled from our notes to lay down on paper whore wo thought the line ought to be run as a located line, some distance a\v:iy from our preliminary line at times. Those were data obtained Ironi field notes, by ci'oss-soclions and surveys. 4210. Did you ci'oss-section the line that you ran at that time ?— Yes; at points we did. 4211. Not all the way through? — No; not all the way through. 4212. Did you cross-section that portion of the line which is now ])art of the adopted Hue? — Yes; portions of it at Keewatin and Ciosri Lake. 4213. That is the portion which you cross sectioned ? — Yes; portions of that were cross-sectioned. 4214. Was that line sufficiently cross-sectioned to give information upon the quantities of the line as finally located and now adopted?— No ; I think not. I think the location has been so much changed, although adhering very nearly to the general direction of the line, that it would be impossible to compare the quantities. A very slitrht deviation in the location would make a material ditterencc in the cress- sections in that section of the country. 4215. Then all the information you obtained upon the line run by you was no help in ascertaining the quantities in the bill of works at the time that this particular cont'tict was offered to public competition? — None whatever. It was not made use of in any way. It did not 279 JARVIS exist at the time. My plans anl a',1 data were bufried ui:i in the tire ill the Pacific Railway otiiceri in 1873 or 1874. 4216. But r understand yon to say that if thoy did exist they would not furnish any infaimalion to establish a, bill of works upon them ? — >'o. 4217. They would have been no lielp, in fact, in ascertaining tlii» quantities for this particular line? — No; tliey could not have boon used lor that at all. 4218. Do you remember whether your instructions at that time liiectcd you 10 make for any particular point on Hod Kiver? — No, they did not. 4219. It left the western terminus to your discretion ? — Yes; as well as the means of getting there. 4220. The Red River on the west and the eastern starting point were the only two points indicated? — They were tixcd. The approximate latitude of Red River was givon mo as the point I should cr(jss. 4221. Do you remember how that was given ? — If I remember right the hitituilo of Fort Garry was given without any definite instructions •IS to running to that point. It was simply a fixed point named ktitudo 49"5J north, which is about the latitude of Fort Garry. It ■tvas given to me more for information than instruction, I think. 4222. Wore there written instructions given to you? — Yes; there were written instructions. 4228. Do you know anything of the location of tho existing line between Wentworth and Selkirk? — I have not been connected with it professionally, but I have travelled over the line. 4224. From your observation have you formed any opinion whether that was a more feasible or a less feasible lino than the southern one which you located or surveyed ? — I am under the impiession that my line was a better one. That is to say, I think the character of the Aork is about similar, but my line was a more direct one. 4225. Do you moan that tho cost would have been about tho same ? —I imagine that tho cost mile for mile would have been about the ^aino except in ono point, whore I understand a great deal of money has been spent. It is known ae tho Julius Muskeg, on contract 14. 4226. Would your line have escaped that exi)ensivo point ? — Yes; my opinion is that on my line we would have escaped it altogether. 4227. When compared with as much of tho route of the railway as would be west of tho Whitemouth, do you think that tho southern lino would be preferable ?— I think it would. 422^. Unless there was some other object to bo attained by going further north? — Yes; it was preforab'o unless there was some other object to bo attained. 4229. Assuming that it was a matter of indifference whether tlio point at Selkirk or the point which you reached should be tho one to ^idopt, do you say that the northern lino would have been preferable to llie southern lino? — If it wore a matter of indiftbrence which point should be reached I should say that the south line would bo preferable. fwhould prefer the south lino for two reasons: tho avoiding of thia Snrve.yn — Party iW. Iiistrnctions did iiDt (ix on any point in Red HIviM. Tlic western tormiaus and tlie way to It, Ifl't to WllllOKS'fi fliscrclion. Written instruo tions. TliInlcH hiH lino niDre CcaHlhlt^ than tlie exisMiii* Hue. Tlii'.rultiisMiis- koj? on seotlon 1 1 wonid have buua avoided. The south IIikj lu all respect ■ preferable. JARVIS 280 Snrveyfi— Party M* 4 ♦ Eag^Ie I^ake to Ntiirgeun liake. Next employed to run a line from Eagle Lake to Sturgeon Lake. One hundred and fifty miles. Base of, and manner of pro- curing supplies. Tnstructed to pur- chase supplies himself. Goods sold at current rates. muskeg, and the greater facilities it would give for ballasting tlio lin,. by running close to the foot of Bird Hill, where good ballast Cf.uld be obtained. 4230. Did you cross-section any portion of this part of the line— •! mean west of Whitemouth ? — I did not. 4231. What was your next work ? — You mean after tinisbing those plans ? 4232. Yes ? — I was then sent to a point 200 miles east of Red Eiver called Eagle Lake, to start at the Hudson Bay Co.'s post there, and lur. a line easterly to Sturgeon Lake. 4233. About what distance would that be? — I think by our line that was about 150 miles. 4231. That would bo in the summer and fall of 1872 ?— That wa> from Juno, 1872, until the end of October. 4235. Where was your base of supplies at that time? — Winnipeg;. 4236. Was it still under the same system that you described la.sl? Had you a commissariat otficer ? — No ; there was no comrai^f-ariat officer attached to my party that season. 4237. What Avas your arrangement for your supplies ? — I wa instructed to purchase my supplies myself. Mr. Jones was only instructed to find the transport. 4238. Did you purchase the supplies that season? — The supjilies i took with me I purchased myself. 4239. Did you take enough with you for the whole season ?~.\o ; I did not. I sent Mr. Jones back for some more. 4240. Do you remember from whom you purchased your sujipliee that season, cither directly or through Mr. Jones ? — From all the prin- cipal storekeepers in the place. 4241. Did you fix the prices ? — I did not. 4242. Who fixed them ? — The goods wore sold at, I presuuK', tht current rates. 42 13. Did you arrange about the prices? — I did not. I i>imply made myself acquainted with the market prices here, and beiaiik aware that I was chai-ged the regular prices that those goods were spelling at. 4244. Were the prices mentioned to you before the goods were ordered ?— At the time of the purchase 1 became acquainted with the jjiices. 4245. Then you agreed for the prices with the sellers ? — T may say that 1 agreed for the prices. I knew at what price the goods were selling, and the supplies I bought myself 1 knew the prices ofiittbc time, because I certitied to the accounts. This second 4246. Has that survey been made available at all in the location of Tv&ulhiXufo the line between Thunder Bay and Eod River as now adopted ?-[ location of line, beliovc not. That line was run with a view to passing north of Laks Nipigon. The present line diverges considerably to the south-oast. 4247. It crosses the present located lino ? — Yes. 281 JARVIS 4248. Only at one point ? — I believe only at one point. That is the very point between Wabigoon Lake and Thunder Lake. That was the only point of intersection. 4249. What size was the parly that you had with you that season ? — Similar to that of the previous season. 4250. Was there any difficulty about the supplies which were furnished to your party ?— None whatever about those that I took out with me, but there was considerable difficulty with the fresh supplies that Mr. Jones sent out to me. 4251. What was the difficulty ? — Thai they were nearly all consumed iicfore thiy arrived at our camp. The men who transported the goods nut having been supplied with provisions, consumed those that they laiTJed, and as the}' were a month on the road, they consumed nearly allofthera. 4252. Do you know who had the organizing of this party? — I had laJ'Self. 4253. Do you moan that they were some of your party that were detailed off for the purpose of going to Winnipeg? — No; the instructions •vore sent to Mr. Jones to forward the supplies. 4254. He was then in Winnipeg? — He was either at Winnipeg or between my party and Winnipeg. I sent him instructions to send me >iipi)lieH for my party for one month. 4255. Who organized the party to forward them? — Mr. Jones Migiinized the transport. 4250. How many men were there in that party tor transporting the ■upplios? — 1 think there were sixteen men. 4257. Any animals? — No. 4258. Did they puck the goods?— The goods were freighted over the North-West Angle road — a portion of the Dawson road — as far as the Xorih-West Angle by teams. 425!t. There was a good travelled road over that portion of the 'D'lritry? — Yes; the road was kept open in those days. From North- West Anglo the supplies were forwarded by boats. •i2G0. What kind of boats? — I believe they were York boats — ihidson Bay boats, 42()1. To what point did the boats take the supplies? — The boats (ame up half-way to Eagle Lake. +262. To what point would you call it ? — I think that the name of lio lal „ «' Siirveyii-- Kn|i(le Ijake broiK'ht it to my farnp, aivi I then Hcnt wonl to those rncn not to come I^il'," '***"*" iiny further. 4283. After those supplies reached you, had you sufficient to finish suort or supplies, ihiit season ? — No; vve were short ot 6>upplie« for some time, an.l did ffilllOUt. 4284. Was the only result of the supplies not reaching you pro])erly ;!,atyoii were ohliged to do with a shorter allowance? — That was all. 4285. The work was not stopped? — No; the work was not impeded at all. 4280. That work took you down, I think you said, to October, 187:^ ? — We reached Winnipeg at the end of October, 1872. 4287. l>id you remain there in the employ of the (rovernment? — I Work not ilIl|K:ilC(i. 428^. Were j'ou in the office here during that winter season ? — ]iiiring that winter 1 left my assistants here making the plans and piotiles, and proceeded to Ottawa myself. 42&0. How long did you remain there?— I remaijied until the end of juiiuary in Ottawa. 1 was working in the head otiice until the end of [January, 1873. 4290. Did you remain in the employ of the Government after that ? I -I did. 4291. At what work? — I then leceived instructions to connect the iwo sections 1 have already described, by running a line from Eagle [Lake to Rat Portage — eigliiy miles. 4292. Did you run that line ? — I did. 4293. What was the size of j'our party? — 1 had a party of three liissistants and about twenty men in all — rather- a smaller party than on Itlie two other occasions, because I did away with canoe men and packer's. 4294. Had the country been explored between those two points at Itlietime you commenced? — Yes; I had explored it myself the previous I year. 4295. Had 3'ou been exploring it while the work of the survey was L'oing on between Eagle Kiver and Sturgeon Lake ? — No ; it was while pework was going on between Kat Portage and Red River. 4296. That was the season of 1871 ? — Yes ; about a year previous — |itijuiiuai-y 1872. 4297. Was it merely an exploration or a survey ?— Only an exploi-a- ion, with barometer and compas^s. 4298. It was not what is called an instrumental survey ? — No. 4299. Had any roads been made thi-ough that part of the country ? -Xo; none whatever. We had to make our roads as we went. 4300. What was the base of your supplies that season ?— Winnipeg. 4301. Under what arrangement? — When I i-eceived my instructions [lOitawa to make the survey I sent orders to my assistants to procure ! necessary supplies, hire the men, and start to a point that I would Idieate where 1 would join them. My chief assistant did so, and he ok trains and axe men, and star'tei out to the lake called Sheban- powan. In Oita\v;i fri>m fiiiioris;'; to,i!in., Ka|t'l4- I.akf to Kill Portage. Witness liad liimself oxplored the country previously. Millie roads as tliey went ou. Winnipeg base of supplies. Arrangements regarding supplies. JARVIS 284 Superior system of supply. Had neither pork nor sugar— on iy absolute neces- saries. Surref*— Bagle Lake to Rat Portage. 4302. Did you find your Supplies there? — A depot was made, an] "EaKle'Lak'efFe^)., ^^0 supplies wore left there, and the party then i)roceeded to Eat-k- it«"3. ' ' Lake, where I joined them in the middle of February with anolhn assistant. 4303. Was there any difficulty about supplies that season y—X,;^^^ i whatever. Supplies, value or. 4304. .Did the value of the supplies which you furnished in that wav exceed or equal the estimate Avhich you have previously giveii?— Jtl was a good deal less. 4305. Was it less in proportion to the size of the party ? — It was not I less in proportion. It was a shorter season and a smaller party. 4306. But was it in proportion to the party yuu indicated : a partvi.t] thirty for a six month's season ? — I think it was rather less. It 'v;..\ under the average. 4307. How do you account for that . that an expenditure undoi'thel former average was sufficient to support the party; had tho |iiic6| gone down ? — No; I think the management in procuring supplies atii getting them sent out was rather better. 4308. Do you mean management in purchasing or in transpoit ?-! In the transport, and in the quality of the supplies purchufsed. hv " quality " 1 mean the kind of supplies. My assistant was a very ijooil and a very energetic man, and the men that he hired were altogether i natives. We had no white men and we took nothing but the nativo provender. We took nothing but pemmican and flour with us. We diil away with pork and sugar and such things, such as we hud taken iui previous seasons. I took nothing but the absolute necessaries. 4309. And that resulted in a saving ? — I think so. So much so that] we had a considerable portion of the supplies left when we reachtl Kat Portage in the March following, having estimated them on theolii basis. 4310. You reached Rat Portage in March ? — Yes. 4311. What time did you leave? — About the middle of Febniarv. 4312. Then you were only a few weeks on that survey ?— We wei.j only five weeks. 4313. What was the character of that survey? — It was culled a pie-i lirainary instrumental survey, 4314. Did you locate any line ? — We made an approximate locutiia by cross-sections. 4315. Was it a thorough cross-sectioning? — No; only at parliiiikii' points. 4316. Did you lay down a centre line for the railway on that occa- sion ? — Yes. 4317. Did j'ou take out the quantities at any time on that location ?- No; we did not at that time. We sent all the data to Ottawa. 4318. Do you know whether the quantities were taken out at Ottawa| upon those data furnished by you?— I believe they were. 4319. Did you continue in the service of the Government after Maichj of 1873 ? — Yes ; we remained here in April and May. A preliminary instruiueiitai survey. Cross-sectioned at certain points. Laid down n centre line. «S w 285 JARVIS Nurve>'»— Caohe Creek to . . Neton Lake «Ie 4320. And after that ? — W o were ncni to British Culunlbia in the Thomimoa [{^jfinningof June, 1873. I'M How did you proceed to British Columbia? — We proceeded by Proceeds to ij,;i San Francisco.' j^il.t'.'^':^:'""""^- 4322. What party? — Myself and three assistants. 4323. When did you reach British Colunibia? — We reached there [aboat the 25th of June, 1873, and I'eported to Mr. Marcus Smith \Tho |,va„ then in charge of the surveys there. 4324. r>id you proceed with further work ? — Yes ; we made a survey [jliere that season. 4325. Between what points?— We started at Cache Creek, and sur- Extent of survey. heved south-westerly to the Cascade Itauge, crossing the Frasor Eiver at Lillooet, and terminating our survey at Seton Lake; then from Cache Creek north-westerly to the Thompson Kiver, following the Hey of the Bonaparte on the north wide of the North Thompson I Kivei'. 432G. About liow many miles ? — I should think it is about 180 miles or iOO miles. Size of party, self and three assist- ants, and twenty men, inulo and puck trains. Tiiirty mules. Yale principal base of supplies. 4327. AVhat was the size of your party ? — Mj'selfand three assistants, about twenty men and a mule train and a pack train. 4328. How many animals? — About thirty mules. 4329. Where was the base of your supplies that season? — Chiefly Yale; but we also obtained supplies from Clinton. 43.30. Did you take your supplies with you intending to have enough for the .season ? — Yes; vve took the season's supplies with us. 4331. Were the animals purchased ab.solutely, or only hired? — I .lohnTrutch tiie hhiiik they were purchased, and were the property of the (iovernment. on"'!"!^'*'^'^'"''^ The whole of the surveying was in the hands of a person named John I Trutch. 4332. What was the name of his office? — We called him the com- : raii^su'iat officer. Bij Mr. Keefer : — 4333. He is not the engineer of that name ? — Xo ; he was the brother of the ox-Governor. By the Chairman : — 4334. Where did he live? — In Victoria. 4335. Did he take the responsibility of pui-chasing those supplies and Pack animals pack animals ? — As for the supplies 1 cannot say, but the pack animals porty'of the''"^*^' I were already the property of the Government before Mr. Trutch was ^"vemment. I appointed. 4336. Then you used animals which the Government already owned ? i -Yo;*. 4337. Was there no purchase of animals for the requirements of your I party that season ? — No. 4338. As to the quantity of supplies did you consult with Mr. Trutch, Trutch took lordid he take the responsibility of ordering them upon his own dia- sibiuty?^''*'"' cretion?— He took the whole responsibility. The system on the other JARVIS 280 Niirveyi— Cache 4'rf<>k to Nrlon I^nke A TililllipHOU Uivcr. Piirty prccf'ilcd lilin loslai-tliig ]iuiut. Supplies ample. Jli'ported (^\ooss «)1' siipplloK, and where stored to Trutch. Made further explorations for a month. Then paid :■ ..'ty-sent men to Viotorla, and the mules to winter (luarters, at Kainioops. No loss further than a few barrels of flour. . ide of the mountains Wiis oiitiroly dill'orenL from tin; system oii ti,;^ side. Iloro tho responsibility rested on the shoulders ot" the oiii;iiit.,|. in eharf^e of the party as to quantities; llioro the whole matlcM' w!i> arrar)god by the Commissariat J>epartinont. 4339. Did you furnish him with the number of peri>ons emplovci and the longlh of the time of the service ? — No ; he was furnislied tV(,|, the head olKco with that. I had nothin<^ to do witli it. I v.asontiivl independent of it. 1 simply procoodod with my assistants to my slaitiii!/ p)int, and there I found my party and supplies. "" 4340. Did you not take them with you? — No; they procedol usa few days. 4341. On whose orders ? — On Mr. Trutch's orders. 4342. Independent of yours ? — Yes. Of course I took eliargo ni them when I arrived. 4343. Uad you sufficient supplies for the season's work ? — Yos; wc had ample. 4344. More than enough ? — Yes ; more than enough. We bioii.'Li some out with us in October. 4345. Out to what point ?— Out to what is called the waggon io;il, a Government road running up the Fraser Jliver. 434«J. And what became of them after you brought thorn tluio?— We returneii tnem to the Commissai-iat Department there. 4317. Was theie a branch of the Commissariat Department tliero?— No; they were placed in store there, and wo notified the Commissariat, Department. Thei-e was a hotel there, and we placed the supplies in a store-house adjoining the hotel. It was a private store-house, routed In- the Government. 4348. Did you notify Mr. Trutch ?—W\> notified Mr. Trutch as to the quantity. 4349. Had you an}^ further responsibility as to those su])plios?— No, after placing them in the store I took some of them out again as f was inst) noted to make further explorations, which occupied mo alioiit another month. I then paid the party, sending the men and assistants to Victoria, and the mules to their winter quarters at Kamloops. 4350. In whose charge did you send them ? — I sent tliem in ihargu of my commissariat oth'cer. 4351. To whom did you send them? — His instructions weiotoitjo with the animals and place them on the winter range and then lo report at Victoria. 4352. You had not the responsibility of delivering them to any parti- cular person ? — No. 4353. You delivered them up to the charge of the commissariat officer ? — Yes; with instructions to deliver them at a certain point. 4354. Do you know whether there was any loss on the stores in connection with that season's work? — No; there was no loss of any kind except a few barrels of Hour. 43J5. Do you remember about what time you ended your survey upon the North Thompson ? —About the middle of October. W?-No; after I : :w 287 JARVIS \i\)(i. Vuii say that af'lor tliat you inaJo unothor BUi'vey ? — Yoh ; I naile an exniorulion in what is known as tho HorHo Fly country, -inviinis the llorso Fly Lakes, from a ',)oint on tho Frasor Jiivor noai- l')iiil"e Cnick, atul running in an easterly direction about eighty miles. We went on until wo wore turned back by tho wintoi- season coming on. l<57. Wivs that nn o.\|»loration, or an exploratory survey ? — An (Xiiloration only, witli compass and barometer. ^358. What was the sizo of your party on that occasion ? — Three I c;t.|i and half u dozen mules. 435',). Altogether? — Yes; wo simply travelled ovor tho country. 43t)D. Was the previous examination of that season an exploration ? I^That was an instrumental survey, all tho work previous to that. J361. Had you any difficulty about supplies on this last work that [vou describe ? — No; I had not. 43t)3. That brings you down to the full of 1873? — That brings us „wn to the end of November, 1873. 4363. For the purpos.e8 of exploration and making surveys which Icannot bo called instrumental, have j-ou any impression about the size [ill parties that ought to bo employed ?— For simply exploratory pur- ;.ises ? 43ii4, Yes? — Yes; T think that a partj' of the size I have mentioned |;.aliout largo enough for explorations in that counlr}-. 43(J5. About three men, with the engineer in charge ? — \"os. 4366. How many animals? — Wo had half a dozen ; it was about the iriffht number. Weonly expected to be absent inside a month, and they neres^uflicient for that ti-ip. The number required varies in ditfei-ent jiiaitsof the country. You would require more men on the east side ot pRed Jiiver, because the transport of supplies is effected in a diffor- Mtway. lu summer they would bo canoed, and in winter thoy would Lcanied by dog-trains, and on men's backs, whereas in British Colum- Biathey were packed on mules. 43G7. Do you mean that tho explorations in the mountain range can bo fcieit'ormed at loss expense, as far as transport is concerned ? — ^'os ; west fihe mountain range. 4368. I think all the British Columbia section was called the moun- lain district, as distinguished from the prairie section ? — Yes ; but there Ire largo plains in it. When you go up into the heart of the Ilocky ]lount;iins the feed ceases, but down in the lower valleys there is plenty ifeed for animals all ovor. 4369. Was this country which you surveyed in the fall of 1873 boiintainous ? — No ; the end near Krasor River was rough ; but the ond lear Thompson Eiver wm not so rough. It was a rolling country. i 4370. Did you remain in British Columbia during tho winter of 1873- ll?-No; after I finished this exploration I rejoined my party in Vic- a, and then returned to Ottawa. 1 4371. And spent the winter there ? — Yea; my party remained in )tta\va during the winter. 1 was absent in England myself on leave. ly party remained in the office, doing tho office work necessary for tho finplotion ot this survey. Kiplorntlnii — FrKHcr Ktvrr iKunrdM Hurst- Fly l .th by boat, down to the Frasur Itivor. Tlioro tho party EUiiunmm, were jtaid otl and returned to Victoria, with tho i„ACO[)tion of one of •I :itai of suppiie.s. •ions also, and were nearly s'a; e • 1 .'. i.i. Ulvcr. ICO to 4H90. AVero your 8npplior» i iMillir Ikcii insutfioieiif. had tne weaJior w |»ilh fearful storms, and there ^v s > :'.r . I Hit-.. .0 , . V.r.- il 1 .,L Ji- .'■'.>! op "•, 1) •.; w • -in't Vt* fncliMiKiii WuiltllOl'. ]'■' JARVIS 290 m Nurvtyg— Kxitloratioii froiii fort U«orK«- to £dinuiitoii. Length of explor- ation IHiO miles. Tpnninl of explorjition. Went north of the previous ex- plorations made irom eastern base of Rocky Mountains to Kdraonton. WO were detained u long time on tlie journey — a mucli longer tinit- than we anticipated. 4400. What was the total length of the line of exploration ?-The total length, as set down in the Blue Book for 1877, is 900 miles. That was the amount surveyed by compass and barometer. 4401. What was thestarting point of thatexploration ? — Fort George on the Praser River. 4402. And the eastern end of it ? — At Fort Edmonton, on the Saskatchewan iliver. 4403. AVas your examinacion of the country from the eastern base oi the Rocky Mouitains to Kdmoiiton an exploration or a survey':'— It was only an exploration. 4404. Had it been explored before at all ? — Yes ; from the eastern base to Edmonton had been previously surveyed. 4405. Did you follow over the same line that had been previously explored? — No; 1 took another line further north, with a view to improving It. 4406. Has any portion of the line explored by you during that winter been adopted now as the probable route of the railway ?— Yes; a portion of that line between the eastern base and Edmonton, as to the changes we suggested thei'e, north of the line run b}' Mr. Moberlv. 4407. Did you succeed in bringing the train with you to Edmonton? — No ; those of the dogs that were still alive I left at Jasper House. 4408. About where did your supplies begin to give out? — Shortly before reaching Jasper House — about fifty miles from there. 4409. On reaching Jasper House were you not able to get supplies? — No; our reason for striking Jasper House was we expected to get supplies from the Hudson Bay Co. there, but we found the post was shut up. 4410. Then did you get any relief before you reached Edmonton ? We got a little from the Indians. We got a small supply from them. 4411. The insufficiency of the supplies, as I understand you, arose not from defective arrangements at the beginning, but from unusual storms and unfavourable weather? — Yes; from unfavourable weather, and the roughness of the country generally, which delayed our progress, 4412. About what time did you reach Edmonton ? — About the end of March. 4413. Did you break up the party there? — There were three Indians with me when I arrived there. Two of them I sent back to British Columbia, and I proceeded with my two assistants and another Indian to Winnipeg. 4414. About what time did you reach Winnipeg? — I arrived ho-o about the 23rd of May, 1875. Declines to go to 4415. Were you employed after that on the Pacific Railway?— Ko; andfea"°8ihe***' I proceeded then to Ottawa, leaving my assidtant here, and made my report to the head office at Ottawa, but owing to the lateness of the .'^eason all the parties had been appointed for that season's work but one, and that one was at Tete Jaune Cache. Mr. Fleming aeked me to I Supplies hegan to Rive out about lifty miles from Jasper House. Ef. a{rd May, 187.5. •ervice. 201 JARVIS KO there, but I declined as I did not wish to go to the mountains aj^uin. Railway l^oca- lion - Coiitrncis Kom* follow 4416. Besidea havinjj; made th I left the Government service. 14 and HI. >f th( _, US survey or tde country Boulh of Had travelled section U in 1871, have yoii travelled over the country still further "asnYom wTu-'^ south?— Yea: travelled over the country due east from Winnipeg. nipcK. 4417. About what time was that ?— I think that was in the spring ,ifle72, previous to starting on our season's work for 1812. 4il8. In what way did you travel over it ? — On foot. 4419. AVas that north of the travelled ro!id which you have si)oken ^,f?_Yes. 4420. What is that travelled road called ?— It is generally called the DawHon road. 4421. You say that your direction was due cast from Winnipeg? — Vcs; the countiy that I saw would be about ilue east for fifteen or twenty miles. 4422. And then? — And then south to the Dawson road. 4423. So that your knowledge of the country between the Dawson Extent oi his road and the line which j-ou ran in 1871 would be only to the extent the^^untry!"^ of about fifteen or twenty miles? —That is all, in that immediate neigh- bourhood ; but further east again I know more of the country south of the line. 4424. Do you mean north of the Dawson road? — Yes; in the neigh- bourhood of Cross Lake. 44-5. Upon what occasions were you enabled to gain infoimation about that country ? — On various occasions on my surveys — travelling over the country with supplies for surveys. 4426. Have you travelled over it more than once ? — Yes ; 1 have been over that country south of the located lino three different times. 4427. Have you, upon those occasions, considered the question To tiic souiii whether there was a more feasioie lim than the one that has been thaUocated!'*" adopted? — Yes; I have always considered it would be a better lino south. 4428. Do you mean, looking at it from an engineering point of view ? —Yes; I never was appointed officially to look at it, but my impres- sion was such after travelling over it, that I reported that, in my judg- ment, a better line could be got further south. 4429. Do you remember whether that was a written repoi-t or a verbal communication ?— I imagine that it was embraced in my written report to the engineer. 1 know that I mentioned it frequently in my conversation with Mr. Rowan. 4430. You think you also alluded to it in your official report?—! think BO. 4431. From what point on the present line would you diverge to the Would diverge south ?— A very little west of Rat Portage it would leave the present atTp^'nt west 0I line. ^^^ Portage. j 4432. Have you ever considered the oost of a line over that section ? On the subject of -Not independently. I have gone over the matter with Mr. Carre, iwedw'it'h Carre. the late Division Engineer on that eoction. We have discussed tho 19i OARVIS 292 iiK'lps* Wail-way IiOGa> tlon — Contract* No8. J4and 15, A large saving •would have been «nt(le by taking line south— In round numbers •8till of opinion that irvHi.oOd might have been saved. Formed opinion ns to relative advantage of liilc as early a>> 1S72. ■Witness thought line slionld run south-west from Keewatin to S p iss thi'ough a good country for thirty miles, capable of beinsi heiilc'l, wliorcas on the present constructed line tho country is n'>t tit lor KctiU niont. M» 21»3 JAR VIS 4444. From the map, does it not appear that the length of the south- em line would be greater than that of the located line? — To what point ? 4445. To Red River? — No; it would be shorter. If I remember right I scaled it on the map, and found it to be shorter. •,44G. I have an idea that in your former evidence before the Parlia- motitary Committee, you considered it would be three or four miles longer to Winnipeg ? — My impression is that it would be shorter. 4447. But to Red River as an absolute terminus, what do you think ? —1 still think it would be a shorter distance, but it would shorten the tluough line as a whole, and I think that a portion of the saving in (lieitance would be eflec^ed east of Red River, the common point being Kcewatin. 4448. Returning again to the cost of exploring through the British (.'olumbia country, sind the country east of Red River : have you tormod any opinion of the comparative cost of the length of the ser- vice? For instance, would any given length in British Columbia co^t less to be explored than the same length in Keewatin district — purely A preliminary survey ? — No ; the average would bo the same all over iho continent. 4449. The average per mile would be the sama? — Yes ; with the ex- ception of the prairie section, the average cost — whether you use canoes, mules, or dog-trains — would be the same for flying explorations. 44.50. How would it be for instrumental surveys? — Always except- ing the prairie sections, I think the instrumental surveys in British Columbia would be most expensive. 4451. For what reason ? — As a matter of ftict I know that in the case of my own parties they wero more expensive. I judge from that as tiinch as anything, I know that wages are very much higher in Briti>*h (.'olumbia, for one thing. Wages for axe men are 50 per cent, higher there than in this pait of Canada. We had to give $45 there, and only gave .S30 hero. 4452. Do you remember what was the general character of the line which you sui-veyed in 1872 from Eagle Lake to Sturgeon Lake? — It W!is a favourable line for a railway. It was altogether through Lauren- tiitii formation, simply a rolling, rocky country interspersed with snuill liikcs, but presenting no insuperable difficulties for railway construction. By Mr. Kei'fer :— 4453. Much the same as contracts 41, 42 and 25 ? — 1 do not know those contracts by their names. It is very much lighter than the piece immediately east of Rat Portage. 4454. It was pretty near the summit, was it not — theheiL;ht of land ? —No; the height of land was this side of Eagle Lake. In that explor- ation we were altogether on the north side of the height of land. We (lid not cross it, and must have been some distance norih of it. By the ChairmuH : — 4455. Is there any other matter which you think would give any ini'onnation on this subject? — No; 1 do not know of anything else. I have described to you all the country that I know from my own Balliray Loca* non- Contracts NuM* 1« mul 13^ ("oinparativo lenKlh oi liuo. Surveys. Avernse cnnipar- atlve uo.>t oi sur- veys. Excepting prairio averiif^e cost the siiiiio all ovtT the CDiitiDi'iit lor c'xplural ious. InstniMientul survM-ys wDukI bo- iiiort' ex|H-iisivo In Britis!; CoUunhlu. IvaKic f.akr to Ktui'tjooii Lukp. Charat^ttT of line from I':ns;li' l,ake to Sturiii'on Lake. ExplonnJ on north side of the helithl ot liunl. »* JARVIS Vntltvajr I. What would you sny about that? — The only point I wouM make about that is with regard to the location of the line ; that the line could be, in my estimation, brought over a very much better location in another direction than the present one, between the end of the work at present going on and what is known as the second hundi-ed— ir, fact between the crossing of the Assineboine and Edmonton. The lini' keeps south of the North Saskatchewan. It crosses the south sjdo di the North Saskatchewan and keeps the south side all the way. Bv keeping north of the North Saskatchewan, and crossing it below the Forks, it would be a better line. 4457. About how far below the Forks? — Very neat' the Foiks. It would pa->8 through the Moose Hills. By Mr Keefer : — 44^8. It is through the foi'est ? — It is a woody country — a veiy tine country. I undei'stand that the proposed location from Battleford to Edmonton is through barren waste.. It is so reportcil to me by the Indians and others in this section of the country. By the Chairman : — 4459. You have not been over both lines? — No. 4460. Then your actual knowledge is confined to the north lino?— Yes. 4461. Your other iiifoi-mation, you say, is derived fi'otn the Indians? — Yes. 4462. And you believe the north line to be over a very favouiahio section of the countiy? — Yes, I have seen a good deal of it, an I I understand it to bo a very favourable section of the country. It certainly ^aves the bridging of one branch of the Saskatchewan. By Mr. Keefer : — 4463. You would not go to Edmonton at all ? — No ; I would pui^ immediately north of Edmonton. The best settlements are north of Edmonton, and I should judge from that that the best land is there. By the Chairman : — 4464. Have you reported yoiir views about that north line to tlio authorities at Ottawa? — I think 1 have to Mr. Marcus Smith. 4465. In writing? — No; not in writing, but in conversations on various routes. 4166. Have j'^ou given the question of inundations caused by the risking of Red Hivor any consideration? — Yes ; I have. 4467. Have you made any report on that subject to the Govermnorit, or have you assisted in any way in making a report ? — I have only made reports of my own from actual surveys, and cross-sections of the river. In the spring of 1812, after we came in, T was instructed to report on the most favourable crossing of Red River. 4468. From whom did you get your instructions ? — From Mr. Flem- ing- 4469. At what time of the year was that ?— In April, 187"^ I think; 295 JARVI3 Rnilwnjr Iiocai tloii — 4470. I-)it flood. 4474. Do 3'ou remember where the ice jam took place which caused Last ice jam toot the last flood ?— It is said to have taken place at Point Douglas, about i^u.^iai^"'"^'' two miles below the town. 4475. Has not the country been inundated further back than that ? — Only the overflow. I understand that tho water was then backed up at the present site of Winnineg, and flooded the prairie, but not to any great ('i"*ance. I believe that the people of St. Andrews did not remove fronUueii' houses at all. 4476. Did you endeavour to ascertain whether the portions of the The river widened river that are confined by the firmest banks have wirlened of late years, ""■'^*"-''»"t^' or whether the widening has only been at other portions of the river ? -I know that the whole river has been widened, both in the wide and iiarrow portions. 4477. Are the narrow portions confined by rock sides more than tho Narrow portions ,,1 ^ o V J i.1 iL • 1 •' • . 4. confined by rock. Others r — les ; and consequently the widening is not so groat. 'i hercforo wuicn- 4478. It proceeds there much more 6«lowly ? — Yo-<. stui it (,'oes tor-' ward, 4479. Still you think the widening goes forward ? — Yes, I think so; all along the river. By Mr. Keefer : — 4480. Y)o you think it would bo a diflicult thing to remove the rock Not difficult to which makes the jam down below ?-I think not. '•^'"'"^" ■"•""• 4481. Is it tho rock in the river, or tho rock at the sides of the river, I which proveots the channel widening at those points ? — At one place ARvrs '296 m : \ flailwMy Itoctk' tion— Kcfl Miver In* tuidatlona. Stone Fort. Fock formation fxt*n(l8 all tlie ■way lUTOHs river at ytone Fort. Rock stratifltd llrnfBtone. Rivor crosses a trreatcr au'a Ht Hapiils Ihaii in 18TL-. it is from the rock in the river — at St. Andrews. There are bouMeis in the river and gravel formation on the banks. At the other point— at the Stone Fort, where the rock is in situ on the banks — the chanrie! is deepening. By the Chairman : — 4482. At that point is there no rock in the river ? — No ; no loose rock, or anything of that sort. By Mr. Keefer : — 4483. Do you think the rock formation extends all the way acioss the river at Stone Fort ? — T think so. I know from actual observation that oppo.site the town of Winnipeg the river* has widened over fifty feet in the last nine years, from surveys made here. 4484. Do you know if the material of that rock is liraestono or granite? — It is limestone altogether. 4485. Stratified limestone ?— Yes. By the Chairman: — 4486. Have you noticed any widening in the rock localities since you were here first?— Yes; I have observed a littlo washing away ii; the banks, but not very much. 1 am under the imprest-ion that tiit- river now covers a greater area at the Eapids than it did when I made ray surveys in 1871 and 1872. 44S7. Do you think that the bed is lower ? — I think that thechaiinei at both those points is washed out, because navigation is much easier row than it was then. Steamers were not at that time able to pass at those points at some seasons, but now they are able to pass all sum- mer, I think that the water has reached its usual level and that tin channel is washed out. There must be a large amount of deposit tar- ried down by the river, because the bar at the mouth is very rapidly increasing in size, and that all comes from th? upper reaches of thi river. By Mr. Keefer : — River iipvpr runs 4488. Docs the Water of thls river ever run clear? — I do not think clear, SO. g 4489. Not in winter time ? — To a certain extent the water is eloarei in winter than in summer. 4400. Then it must always bo carrying down a certain portion '?— Ir. the winter none of the bank is carried away, and the action of the water then scours the channel. Under no ordinary circumstances would ;i flood raise the water over the level of the city here. Line iinrth of I^iMke JHani- tobu. Coinparativf merits of lines nurth and south ofl.ake Manitoba, lilno south of Manltol)a prefer- able for con- si ruction and oeltleinent. By the Chairman . — 549J. Have you ever traversed the country north of Lake Manitoba ?j — No ; I have not. 4492. Have you formed any engineering opinion as to the expediency! of running the line through Selkirk, and north of Manitoba, as com-j pared with the lino through Winnipeg south of Lake Manitoba?— 1| certainly consider the southern line a much more preferable line botb| for construction and settlement for agricultural purposes. 297 JARVI3 Bnilway Ihouid be shown to the northern line. 4496. Are j'ou speaking now from an engineering point of view, or .soutiiem Hno' fiom the fact of having an interest in this locality? — I am speaking Jjp^/jngafjJ}^'* from an engineering point of view as well as from having an interest in economic the country. I think it can be clearly shown, because after the lino ^'*^"""'^" had been located there was no settlement along the route to the north, jimply because no settlement could take place in a country that was nearly all swamp ; whereas the western portion of the province, and the country adjacent thereto, between here and the point south of Lake Manitoba is becoming better settled all the time, and filling up rapidly. Then I think that the southern line would be cheaper to construct. With regard to one point, the crossing of lied iliver, an enormous outlay uould be required to make a satisfactory crossing at Selkirk — very much more than a bridge could bo built for at one or two other points outlay, oa the river that could be named. 4497. In round numbers, what difference do you think could be made Cost of a bridge in such a crossing ? — I should think that there would be about double $r,l)/MK)t at '^''^^'' the cost. T think a bridge could be built at a point near the rapids on Selkirk, jsoii.ix^'. the Ecd River for '$150,000, and at Selkirk it will cost $300,000. 4498. Is this a matter to which you have given much consideration ? —With regard to the cost of bridging Rtid River, I am now in charge if the construction of a railroad bridge which is being built here across Red Eiver by the city of Winnipeg. Crosiiiii^ at Selkirk \vouli»J involve large 4409. Have you, as an engineer given much consideration to the ireneral direction of the line, whether it should bo north or south of Lake Manitoba, or is that a matter upon which j'ou are expres.'^ing vimr opinion now without much consideration ? — You mean Avitli ine? regard to the direct through 4500. Y'es ? — It probably would be more direct going by the Narrows ol Lake Manitoba, 4r)01, I am speaking about the expediency, from an engineer's point .South Huenmre "I view, of building the north or south line as a whole ? — I should guftMsHngg^cuna^^ lertainly say the south line by all means. 4502, Is that your opinion without giving it much consideration ? — No; I have gone very closely into the question of the relative merits of the two lines, and I am satisfied that the one adopted west of here — that is, passing south of Lake Manitoba — is the better line of the two. It will be the better line to construct from an engineering point of view, the easiest and cheapest to maintain, and it will produce the JARVIS tlon— liiiie north or lou whetlier vou have reason to consider that there were other motives besides endneering motives? — No; it is hard to say what reason could be iill'geJ in favour of that crossing, other than a nominal one. It cer- laiiily was on a more direct line, when it was intended to take the roati iioiih of Lake Manitoba. The further north you get on lied River the more direct youi line would he. That might have had some influence on ■he decision. WiNNiPKo, Friday, 17th Se])tember, ISSJ. JuHN J. McDonald, sworn and examined: McDONALD- Bu the Chairman: — Tciid«-ring- ^ • t'oiitraet Ho. 49. 4517. Have you been interested in any transaction in connection interested in con- with the Canadian Pacific iiailway? — I am interested in contract 42. '■'■'*'''' *^' 4518. Was that the first in which you were interested ? — Yes. 4510. When did you first become interested in that transaction ? — I The work was let a j'ear ago last March. I was one of the parties who tendered for the work then with Mr. Manning, Mr, Shields and others. 4520. Were you connected with Manning & Shields in tendering Tondoreii with I for the contract ?— Yes. huumb.^ "'"' 4521. Was your tender accepted ? — No. 4522. Then how did you become interested in the contract? — We Went in with I tendered for the work, and wo afterwards went in with Grant, Fra^er pubiadl'." iPitblado, whose tender was accepted. 452.3. Did you make any arrangement with them before you knew j whether their tender was accepted or not? — Yes; we arranged with itbem that in the event of the contract coming to them wo would go in I with them. There was a regular agreement drawn up between us. Shields, Mnnning and myself signed an agreement with them to that [deer, 4521. Have you any copy of that agreement ? — No. 4525. Do you remember a letter having been written by Fraser, Fraser&co. to iirant & Pitblado to the Minister of Public Works, to the etlect that JS wUnV^ss^^nd" lyou were to join them ? — Yes ; there was a letter written. his rrionds werH ' to Join that nnii. 452G, Was that the agreement you referred to? — 1 think the letter hvassent by us all. I know there was a letter sent to the Minister of Public Works to the effect that, in the event of the work being awarded |to them, Shields, Manning and myself would be associated with them. 4527, Was that the only document embodying your agreement with |Fraser, Grant & Pitblado ? — That was the only one until our articles ol partnership wore made out — that I know of. Mcdonald 300 Tendering— Contract Ko. 43. Morwe A Co. siu)- poiied to be the KucccsBful ten- tlerers. "Whrn nfirocinont wus made with Frnser & Co., Morse A Co. sup- poBcd to be the Buccesisful ten- derers. Morse * Co. failed 10 put up security. Tender of Andrews. Jones & Co. next. Andrews, .Tones A Co. Kuppost'd to be strongly baeked. 4528. At tho time of your makini^ (hat ni^reement with thorn, wlir, was supposed to be tho sucoe-tsful tondoror ? — Morse & Co., of Torontu 4520. Wa.s that before tho lender of Andrews, Jonos, & Co. haij [^,,^^ accepted ? — Yes ; we were speaking to Grant and Fraser in tho event (f it coming to them. Arrangement was made between us, verbally, before this letter was sent in— some days before. 4530. Had there been any document em bod 3nng that agreement' No. 4531. Then you had arrived at an under.standing before tluslotiirl WHS written? — Yes; a verbal agreement. 4532. Was it a positive agreement? — Yea ; in the event of the work 1 coming to them, wo could go in with them. 4r)33. You say, at tho time of this verbal agreement, Morse \- (.'o, were supposed to bo tho successful tenderers ? — Yes. 4534. Did you then know whether Morse & Co. had got tho otler n3. Was there any time allowed after you got the contract uii which to furnish bondHmon ? — No; we gave tlie names in at the time we signed the tender. The tender hud to be signed by two responsible jmrties willing to become security. 4567. Have you had any experience in contracts where the heciiiitvi for the fulHImeni of acontract was in the shape of a money deposit ?~ No; not until this present contract. BuiicvPK ntason- 4508. So you are not able to say whether the time given to any of rnaii'cawef.'^*" ^^e parties tendering for this (contract was what would usually bo con- sidered a leasonable time or not? — 1 believe it w s a I'easonable time. 4.»69. 1 am asking whether you know from y< experience that i; was a roasonaltlo time? — No ; I do not. 4570. Do you say you think it was a rea(*)nable time that was given | to Andrews, .lones «t Co. ? — Yes. 4571. Do you know how much time was given them? — 1 do not| know exactly. 4572. Then how do j-ou form an opinion that it was a reasonabloi time? — We did form an opinion at the time that Ihoy bad all the time they ought to have. Of course I might think so, being the next iowci^tl tenderer and expecting the contract would come to us. 4573. Are you sure that you know the time then that was given ti)j them ? — I would not be positive. 1 believe we knew the time, l»ut l| would not be positive of it. 4574. Hut you do not remember row what time you thought had] been given ? — No ; I do not remember. 4575. Have you still — I mean your firm — an interest in the contract! to the extent of one-half, or more ? — We have bought out Fraser, Grant} & Pitbh io. I bought them out and took in new men with m. I bought them on behalf of the firm. 4576. You have taken in other partners instead of Fraser, Grant k,\ Pitblado ?— Yes. 4577. Who are they ?— Alexander McDonnell, James Isbestor andj Peter McLaren. 4578. So that the whole firm still comprises the same number of| individuals?— Yes. 4579. What was the price of their half interest ?— $52,500. 4580. Was that beside any profitfi that had been made up to thstl time ? -No j that was to cover everything except their expenses up toj that time. Bought out Fraser, Grant & Co. Other partners taken In. $52,600 paid for half Interest of i< raeer A Co. I Yes; I believe tl ■ *•(* 303 MoDONALD TatHlerlnv — «'uiitr.uonHos Cor their halt' intercHt in tho vontraot ?— Yes. 4583. That would bo calculating the whole value of the (.ontract nt }li|\0OJ ?— Yex. 4584. Are you aware of any other bonus or gift to any one to onablo interest of i>. o, vnu to ;^ot this inlorest in tho contract ? — There is an intoroHt that Mr. '-'"**• jiaoriing and Mr. Shields have agreed to give a certain party who .k'neil iti the contract in Toronto. I have nothing to do with it. 4585. Do you mean it is a share of their interest? — It is not settled vet between the firm what shape it is to bo in, but we have nothing to ilowith it now. 4586. Vou must make that more plain to mo; I do not undorsland Cif>H' was toimvo vou. Do you moan that Manning and Shields agreed to give some per- u/e Toa'tract'!''' '" ion a share in this contract? — Thoy agrcot moi'o re wciv v. Six- 1 ihciv 111 lliciv ul tVum ■iilarly. TendcrlaK— Contract No. 43. 4613. Do you mean you got informatiou from those men which was several iistn or not reliable? — No ; but there were several lists, supposoJ to be lists, of abo'Jft" ^"""'^ tenders which had been put in. 4614. Who had these lists? — A. P. Macdonald had one. I got one — a list of five names — from a man named LaBerge, of Jlontreal ; he was a ijntractor tendering there. 4615. Were these lists supposed to be correct lists of tenders that !]ad been filed in the Department? — They were supposed to be, but I liiiow that some of them were not, because I compiii-ed them and they ditfered. 4616. Did any of them turn out to be correct i.i the rank in which cannot say tenders were placed ? — I cannot say. those nsts'wera cor 'oct 4617. Why can you not say? — Because I have not compared them with the correct list. I have never taken the trouble to compare them alter the work was let. After the contract was let, the regular list of tenderers was published. 1618. Wore those writton lists or printed lists ? — They wore written ill pencil generally. In |)Os.so.ssion of 4619. Have you any of those lists that were circulated at that time ? "one of u.e lists , -^ •' of tenders olrcu- —So, Iftted before o two pi'l ■,620. Have you had any communications with anyone connected j„,i„J,,pj„^ Willi any of the Dopartmcn'.s on tliis subject, either before or since the cierkH, &c. hettiiifj of the contract? —iNjt particularly that I know of; no more jilian if 1 met any of them., as 1 am veiy intimate with them, 1 would j.poak to them casually, "'jui T)Othirig particularly. 4621. Do you stale now, a.-? a matter of evidence, that the only I'i'omi-c, or gift or bonus, from any one of your firm to any person, on I noil lit of getting this contract, was to this gentleman in Toronto? — rfliai was all from any person connected with the worR. This man jrioso was supposed to be one of the sureties, and when they got him witlidraw 4622. Have you knowledge oi anything being given to any person witness promised liiut connected with the woik?— Yes; i liave piomised to give t-omo- ^{.\^^^y"^'^|^jj^^^J;l^'|J55,j riiirii; to a party myself. to'chapieau. 46'J3. In what shape?— If 1 succceued in doing the work I would do imcthing for him. 4'!24. Have you succeeded in doing the work? — If 1 succeeded in ijelting the contract. 4625. In what shape were you to do soirething? — I was to give him l^omctliing. '.fi2(). What was the somolhing? — A certain amount of moiiej', if I iK'it'odcd, ^627. Where does he live? — Ho lives in Ottawa. 46jS. What is his name ?— Chapleau. W20. Which Department is he in?— He is in the Public Works Iti'imrtment. It was for nothing in the De; •vtment that I was to ffive tto Inm. •1650. What were you to give him ?— $1,000. 20 I :, t>act i\u, 4/2. influcncinK 4ou that ho had any reason for supposing (hat Sf,UOO would ^ilonco Smith ? — No; he did not lead me to believe that. 4637. It was bj way of a proposition ? — 1 do not for a moment suppose that Smith was getting any of this money. 4638. You supposed it was for Ch.^pleau's own benefit ? — Yes; if he would influence Smith not to come forward. 4639. P'rom his own personal friendship? — Yes; that is it exactly, 4640. Have you paid any part of this money to him? — I gave him $500. 4641. No more?— No. 4642. "When was that given ? — It was given perhaps within the last six months. I cannot sr.y exactly the dale. I could find out by hunting up my chofiuo book. 4643. This spring or summer ? — Yes. 4641. Have you reason to believe that any other promise or gift was given on behalf of any one of your firm to any one else? — No; I do not know of a cent to any soul outside of these two. 4645. Have j'ou reason to believe that any one of your firm will here- after give anything more than this ono twenty-fourth to Mr. Close and $i,OOU to Mr. Chapleau ? — No. I have not the slightest idea. wlStributwi"*' 4646. Have you reason to believe that any of your firm has contri- ttnythingtonews- buted to the support of any newspaper or any other indirect means of The $4,(KHi promis- ed with the hope that it would in- duce Chapleau to influence Smith rot to put up the money for Aniirews, Jones &<'o. 3Tas given him Boes not know of a cent to be given to any one .save Chapleau and Close. 507 Mcdonald Toiideriiig— ■ influence in your favour ?-No ; and I ihink it thoy did I would know \''^l!r-»^^Xu'^^]^^' it. I iim not aware of anything. 4GI7. Does unj'thing else occur to you which ouf^ht to be stated that would f^ive us knowledge of matters referred to this Commission lor investigation ? — No. 4»UH. Have yon anj'thing which you youriiolf wish to 8ay about this matter? — No; not here. jiiHN Shields' hworn and examined SHIELDS. ArmiiKeiiionts with Fi-itser, Grant & Co. By the Chairman : — 4t)4!'. Have you been interested in any transaction on account of the Canadian Pacific Railway ?— J have. 4(!f)(). Which was the first transaction ? — Conti-act 42. 4G5I. That is the same contract spoken of by Mr. McJJonald, the lasit witness? — Yes; the same contract. 4052. Do vou remember when you first became interested ? — T think Datcofcontraot, wo made the contract with the Government on the 20th March, '-'"^'' *"^''"'^"' '**'"• 187!». 41)5:^. "Were you before that time interested in obtaining the con- tiitcl ? — Yes When we wont to Ottawa, after we had put in our ten- der, Mr. McJ)onald, myself and others who are associated with usj met Mr, Fraser, Mr. (Jrant and Mr. Pitblado, and before I, at least, knew anything of the standing of the tenderois, or. heard of the >Uinding of tenderers, except vague rumours, to which we could pay DO attention, wo made an arrangement that if our tender na« the low st and was accepted they should become our partners, and it theirs was the lowest we should become their paitners. They felt tiiat they were incompetent to handle such a heavy undertaking. 46,54. Who thought them incompetent ?— They stated themselves '.but they thought they were not sufficiently strong. 4055. Which of them stated that ? — Fraser and Grant stated that. 4G5H. Were they both at Ottawa ?— Ye^. 4057. And Pitbhulo? — Yes ; Pitblado was at Ottawa, too. 4058. Then you met the whole of the Nova Scotia branch of your firm at Ottawa ? — Yes. 46.59. Did they all remain in Ottawa up to the time of letting the contract? — No; I think not. 1 think that they all went home except Mr. Fraser, 4660. Were negotiations completed before they went home ? — The A verbHi agree- legotiation between iliem and us was j^ verbal agreement which was "lent wuh Fraser uiKiersiood between us before they went home. 4601. What was the substance of that verbal agreement? — Just what I stated, that whichever of our tenders would be lowest the whole six would share. 1 do not think we even knew what the figuies ol each otbei 's tenders were at that time. Frasor, Grant, * Vo tliought Ihcy were not sufllcl- ently stronjc. SHIELDS 308 Tendering— Contract Ko. 43. 4662. When you became jointly intorestei in that question, woula it not be nameii between you ? — Probably it was afierwards, but I know it v/as not named previous to that. 4663. Do you mean that this agreement was made without your knowing the amount of their tender or they knowing the amount of your tender ? — I do ; distinctly. 4664. If your tender was the lowest were you three strong enougli to manage the contract without them ? — I do not know. 4665. What was your opinion ? Was it your opinion that you were strong enough to manage it without the Nova ScoLia firm ? — I do luii think that three would be strong enough to manage it, because when they went out we took in three other partners. 4666. But they did not know at that time that they were going out, and that you were going to take in three others ? — No. 4667. I will ask you what moved your mind when you were lender- ing ? You say it was thought by them that they were not strong enuuirh to manage the contract without taking in partners ? — Thoy stateil it at the time. 46d8. Was that one of your reasons? — I do not think it was. 4669. Did you mean to mislead me by slating that that was your reason ? —I stated that as the reason that they gave us. The reason that I, at least, as a membei- of the firm, thought that the work was a heavy undertaking, and that it would require a large number, and it' we did not succee 1 with our own tender that theirs might succeed. 4670. Do you mean that it would require six persons or more capital to manage it? — 1 believe it required all. 4671. A firm of more than three persons? — I believe it requiiod a very strong business management, a very requisite practical knowledi,'*) of the woik, and it required a very strong financial firm to do the woi k, 4672. Did you think you were moving in the direction of obtainin<,' that when you wore negotiating with that firm ? -We thought so at the time. 4673. Was that one of the reasons which moved you in this an-aiigo- ment ?— Partially. Wo thought there was a bettor chance of getting the work with their tenders and ours combined than with each singly, and we thought in case the work was obtained there was enough fur both films. 4674. You mean enough profit for b-jth?— Yes; enough jtrotit for both of them. 4675. Do you mean that if your firm obtained the contract that it would be to your advantage to unite those other Nova Scotia men with you ? — We thought so at ih« time. 4676. That was one of your motives for the arrangomc^nl?— Vos; we thought i-o at the time. 4677. Were you aware at that limo that any jierson had loridoml lower than either you or i'mso.' k Giant?— Not at that time. isuk^n^iu""*'^ '^^^^^ ^'"' ^^^^^''^'lald'N lO'.-olloction is that it was tuipposod lliat, e date when Morse &, Oo. were the successful tenderers at the time? — 1 have lioaii Agreement made without amount of tenders being known. r)oes not think tliree would ' e sufficient to man- age so large a contract. Further reasons for the partner- ship. Tliought that if witness's firm's tender did not succeed that of Friiser & Co. might. Tiie worlt was of s\ich magnitude as to re(iulrea SI rong practical executive, and large financial resources. The work large enough to liave given a sufflcleot profit to the two Arms. Thl ni the 309 SHIELDS No docwnient cinliodyintf iiiiroo- iiuMil, other than letter seiitto Department. Tenilerliiic — Contrnct No. 4*4. \ff. McDonald's evidence, and 1 think that he is mistalien. I think it relative position wiwadayor ho after the tenders went in, and I do not think the ;j^j',X',''''* *'''''''"'' standing of the tenderers was ascertained at that time. 4679. Can you say how long it was after you made this verbal agree- ment with I'Vaser & Grant, that the lottei- was sent to the Depart- ment by them, stating that you were to be associated? — The arrange- ment was made with Fraser & Grant immediately after the tenders went in — some time in .January, about the end of January', I think ; iiiid the letter went in, I think, about the end of February or the beginning of March. 4680. You say that the arrangement with Frasor & (rrant was completed verbally ; do you know of any dot-ument embodying it except the letter sent to the Department, of which you have spoken? — None that 1 am aware of. 4681. You s^ay that your recollection of the verbal arrangement is that it was made about the end of January ? — Immediately on the tenders being ^^ent into the Department, and before we even knew of the figures — the comparative figures — with regard to the tenders. 4682. Then it was after your verbal arrangement with Fraser & (iiant that you were aware of Morse & Co. having been awarded the contract ? — Yes. 4683. So that as soon as you knew that fact you know you wore intefcsted in Morse & Co. not getting the contract ? — Yes ; 1 heard that Morse & Co. were the lowest. 4684. Did you know the persons upon whom Morse & Co. depended ;iK sui'oties? — J heard Mr. McDonald state now that Mr. Close was Moi'!i>e t time you heard it ? — 1 think I did hear it before. 4680. Then why did you point out to mo that you heard Mr. Mc- Donald say it?— Jiocause I had forgotten it entirely. 1 have hoard it before. 4687. Then why point out to me that Mr. McDonald mentioned it ? —I thought Mr. McDonald was in error until it came to my i-ecollec- tioii that I heard he was Morse's security. 4688. How did you hear that? — Mr. Close, I think, told me so him- self. 4689. Where ?— In Ottawa. 46lJ(). Was Mr. Close down there ? — He was. 4691. At that time ?— Yes. 469'J. Did you see him more than once on that subject? — Ue stayed ill the hotel where I did — at the liussell House. 41 93. Did you see him more than once on this subject? — I never biiw him on the subject at all. 4694. When w^s he telling you ?— He may have casually mentioned it. -^,|JJ^" ^'no\"a We (lid not take that of any account, a man being security. That was niatter of great a mere matter of form. conse.,uene... After arrfin^ie- nieut had tjeen made with Friiner tfc Orant, learned that Morse & t"o. had been awurdeil eontraet P. security for Andrews, J' /nes & Co. at that time? — We did not know but what he might. He said he could obtain an interest in their contract, and we agreed, upon certain conditions, that he should have an interest in ours — that is, putting up his securities and doing his part of the work, etc. 4700. Do you mean to say that as an equivalent for the interest which he would lose by Andrews, Jones k Co. not getting theontrae:, you offered him a share in yours ? — Not altogether. 4701. If not altogether, in what respect? — Mr. Close stated tli;U he (!ould get an interest in it if he weredispo.>ed. Mr. Close would probablv have got an interest in our first tender — he might have got an interest in our first tender had we got the whole of the work for section C; we were very favourably disposed to him. 4702. How do you mean that he might have got an interest in eon- tract C? — Because although we tendered, the tender does notreproMcni all the names interested in the firnt tenders, and had the contract come to those tenders for the whole work, as at fii-st arranged, the probabili- ties are that he would have had an interest in those tenders. 4703. Why do you say it was probable he would liave had an inter- est ? — Because it was understood . 4704. Understood between whom ? — Between some of the parties that he should have an interest. 4705. Some of which parties ? — Myself and others. 4706. What others? — I have no particular recollection now, but I think his name was mentioned to McDonald and Manning. 4707. You think it was mentioned to them? — Yes. 4708. What makes you think it was mentioned to tliem ? — I have a recollection that it was discussed. 4709. Were you present when it was mentioned to them ?— I have no distinct recollection of discussing the matter at that time, but theio 311 SHIELDS partner.-*, Teiiilerliig — Coiitrnet So. 44. was a lari,'e nutnbov of i)arlios. This was supposed to be a very hoavv work at that time, ant) we wei-e tryinjif to get the two sections, A ami B, ami tiy ins^ to j^ot the throe contracts, and there were a number of parties bjhind us who, had wo ijot that contract, would have been with us, aiitl >1r. Close was one of thon». 4710. Why do you say ho was one of those ?— Because it was arranged tliat he should h:ivo an interest. . , n I • 1 o TT 1 . 1 , • <'lr)Nl> spok(? to 4711. Between whom was It arranged ? — He spoke to me about it, witness ahoiu and 1 spoke to the other partners about it. There was no written ,"1';,'^ wfuii'^ls''"'^*'^ ai,n'comerit but there was a verbal agreement between us. 4712. T understand you to treat a verbal agreement as a binding jiiri'coment? — Yes; when all parties carry out their agreement, I sup- })().se it is, 4713. Do you think that agreements are only binding when they are carried out? — I think that an agreement, whocher written or verbal, ought to be carried out. 4714. r am speaking of the e.Kist'nco of such agreements, not of The ,T!,'ioeinent their lultilment. I wish to find out from you when the exigence of noVu u'lrsiaiu^^* that agreement be^^^an ? — From the start. 4715. Who made the agreement that Close was to bo intereatod witii Manning, McDonald, & Shields? — AVhich do you mean ? 47I0. You say that before any lender was put in, or at the time of the tenders being put in, that there was an agieoment that Close was to become interested with you and McDonald and Manning — that is what you have led mo to understand : now I ask you who made that agree- ment? — 1 think I made the agreement with Mr. Close, and Mr, Close f-poko to me at the time when we came to the tender we put in. 4717. Xow do you say there was an agreement made between you and Mr. Close at that time ? — Yes; I think there was an understood agreement. 4718. Do you not know whether there was? — There wa^ L think. 4719. Now, knowing as you do, was there an agreement made? — There was no well defaned agreement understood. 4720. Then why talk to me about an agreement? — It was under' stood that he should have an interest with us. 4721. How was it understood ? — There were no details arranged. 4722. Was it understood in your mind alone? -It was understood in hig as well as in ours. 4723. What makes you believe that it was un lerstood in his mind ? —Because he spoke to me about it. There was a simple understand- ing that he was to have an interest in our original tender when it was put in. 4724. Would you say now on your oath whether there was an agree- ment at that time between you and Mr. Close that he should have a share in the contract, if you succeeded in getting it? — 1 can only put it in the way I have put it ; that there was an understanding between Mr. Close and us, that should it corao to our original tender for section C, t; «it ho should have an interest. WU,ness thinks he madr the agreement wUli Close. No wel! ileTinod agreement, No (Jptails arrans;oJ. Witness cannot put it in any other way than that there was an un- derstanding that should the origin' al tender for sec- tion C. prove suQ« cua!«ful he would have an interest^ SHIELDS 312 TrndcriiiK— CoiKrnctNo. 42. 4*725. Do you mean that the understanding should have a ditleront signification from the agreement ? You have prevaricated a good deal and have talked to me about simple agreements; all that I want yoij to say on j-our oath \h: whether there was a distinct undorHtanilini' Itetween you and any one else that Mr. Close was to have that share iik the contract ? — I do not think there was, that any specified diviHJon was to be appropriated to Mr. Close, or that there was any dotailel agreement enterea into with him either verbally or otherwise, onU there was a simple understanding that he should have an intoroHl. 4726. What do j'on mean by a simple understanding ? Do you meai, it was suggested that he might have an interest? — No; there was an arrangement between both parties that he should have the share in ii, if it came to our tender, 4727. Was there a definite understanding, or a positive agieomem, Close shou'm have *^'*^ he should have any share, whether the share was designated or not? a share In the — I think there was. orljiiruil tender. 4728. Do you not know, when you were the party who acted in it?— Yes ; there was to be a share in the oriioad of mine. 4701. Who has been looliing after the inierost of yuur fuLJior in tho matter ? — 1 have. 4762. Have you spent mucli of your time in the noi^jjhbourhood of ih,. worlv ? — I have spent nearly all my time in connection with tlio \viir:< and his business since we got the conti-act. 4763. lias there been any particular chan^ijo in your circum9taiicv« between yi)ur jj^etting the contract and your father becoming a paitner instead ot j'ou ? — Ves; that was ihtJ cause of putting my fatlicr in rm place. 47(»4. What was the change in your circumstances? — The chaii;'; was that I got into business difficulties. 4765. Did that result in any change of your property ? — No— Yes; ii did. 47' 6. Could j'ou get into the Insolvent Court without tliero bointr a change in your property ? — 1 did not catch the question that you put, 47t>7. Did all your property or interest pass to somebody else after you became a contractor and before your father toolc your place in tlu' partnership ? — No. 4768. No change took place then before your father went in ?— N i, 4769. Was it soon after your father took your place in the ]iaitiier- ship that tliore was a change in your property ? — Yes; not long. 4770. How long? — I think some months. 4771. More than one month ? — About two months. 4772. Is vour father a man of means ? — Yes ; he is reasonablv well off. 4773. Was anything given to you for your share that was transferred to him ? — My father put up the securities for me in the contract— the original securities — I think some $36,000. 4774. Was anything given to you for the transferring of your share to him in the contract ? — No. 4775. That was a transfer without value then ? — It was a transfer | without value, owing to his having put up the securities. 4776. Were you in the partnership at the time the arrangement was j made to buy out Nova Scotia mcml>ers of the firm? —I was acting for my father then. 4777. Did you take part in those negotiations ? — I did. 4778. Had you authority from your father to do so? — I had. ilitcli and the hi 313 SHIELDS Tfiiili'i-iilK-- I iiiilrafl Sit. 4'i. ^'''X Sothiitlliiit IraiiHtt*!' iKproporly fonyiitiunatodjUH you uiKlorHfaiid lihatiho I'rasor, Grant iSt Pilhlado tii-m have no longor any inleio^l in jj;__l undofHtand it to bo ao. 4;80. Voii signed the eonti-act yourself originally ?— 1 did. N,,«in. i..)t nront 47SI. Huvo you roa-ion to beliovo that any gift, bonus, or advantage, to witu.-sVH liJi'.U'on promised or given to any one on account of any one of that Jl "mViuu or hl's rtiim bciii;i' inlerosted in this contract? — Not a cent to niv kiiowlcdure. (iiin itoinif ititcr. I 111 m I"- r> ./ r< exicd 111 llils , . , . , . colli riii't. i;S2. Is there any other matter which you wish to mention t') the K'jniiiussioii connected with this transaction? — None. „iiN Mdi.LOY, sworn and examined : F,ij the Chairman : — 47S3. Have you been in any way connected wilh any of the works [,i; the Canadian Pacific Kuilwa}- ? — Yes. 4184. Tn what capacity ? — T was one of the assistant engineers on ^(oiitnict 14 from June, 1875, to July, 1877. 4(85. On the part of the Government ?— Yes. 4TS(i. There are .some claims made by Siflon, Ward A- Co. in con- itcKion with that contract : one for change of the location of the line jaiid another for a ditch at the Julias Muskeg? — Yes; 1 was in charge [(if the work on the Julius Muskeg at that time 4757. Do you know about work at this ditch ? — Yes; I know some- Itliing about it. AVhat the claims are I am not aware o!' but I know [(oncorning the work. •>. 4758. They say the ditch on the Julius Muskeg is at a greatoi- ijjjtarice from the line than the specification described ? -Yes, that is lihecase; I laid out the ditch myself. There is a ditch for about four liinJ a-half miles, ninety feet from the centre of the railway line to the |(entre of the ditch, to the best of my recollection. - 4789. What is the greatest distance which there could bo between Ithe centre of the lino and the centre of the ditch, if the ditch was jwithin the specification ? — That would depend upon the depth of the iJiteli and the height of the bank. From the centre of the railway line |to the extreme limits would be fifty feet. 47M. How do 3'ou make it fifty feet ?— That is the limit of the rail- [way. One hundred and thirty-two feet was the limit of the telegraph Iciearing. 4791. You say the whole width of the railway line would be 100 [foot?— One hundred feet on the section I was on. 4792. Might not the line be laid out at one side of the centre of that |lU)teet?— It was not. 4793. I am asking if it might not be under the specification? — No; lit could not be under the specification, unless the specificuiion was jtirst altered. All our plans and cross-sections show that. 4794. Then the specification made it impossible to have the ditch Iwiihin them and moie thin fifty feet from the centre of the line to MOLLOY. niiiMvny f'oii- Nll'IK'lloil — Coiitrat I All. 14. CoiitrHclorM' « Iniiii.i* AssjsUint 1'111,'i- iiftT on coiili'iict II. Ill plmritcor work un.lnlluij Muskeg. r>itcli oil .Julius MiiKket; at a Kreatcr distain-o from line than d«sciibeil liy spt'cKin.ttioa. Wlilth of railway tine on section where witne.sn worked IW fuut. MOLLOY 816 Railway Ooii* •.•rin'ilon— C'oiilrHft No>l4, Contrnctoi-M* CInIiiin. Kxtfiit of tx(rii haul. TlilnkH (l.stnnco CXtt'lKkMl to t'VCIl lit'voiKl nliH'iy Ifet. Cunti'ol rnnnot sny wlmt woiilil lictixtrome limit from tlic fiMitreof tliedltch to the line iflt was within the speclliftttion. The lierni ten feet from the bottom of slope. From eentre line of the railway to the outer limit of the railway ilfty leet. Thinks the ditch inust be within fifty feet of '.he i-ciiUo line to be within theppeclfl- ctitions. tho cei'tro of the ditch ? — Ych ; it would bo (luile impOHHJblo I'lom [\A fcntro of the line to the outHido of tho ditch. 4"l>5. In this cnwe, whore it wbh ninety foot, was thofo Homowlicreali^uti ciirhty feet extra huiil if tho oarth ffom tho ditch wftH put into tho Hn^J — VoH ; there would bo more than ninety feet. Taking ihecontroot'thj ditch to tho centre of the railway would be ninety feet. Now in (tnoiilmJ that ditch was over thirteen toot at one point over tho icifiilalion should say it was thirteen and throo-tentlis — that would bo u little (u'ei'l forty-nine feet wide — then tho bottom of tho ditch was >iii' feet, hiiifl of that depth would bo two foot, and taking two fron^ ' - If olfortyiiitij it would extend that distance to even boj'ond ninet' oot. 4700. Would it not bo tho same distance on th' .iisido of the line as it was outside? — Certainly. 4797. Then if that mucli was stived in the distance on the iii.si(le the centre line, would it not compensate for tho same distance ouisilj of the lino? — That would make tho average ninety feet. 4798. What would have been the distance from the centre ot tlul ditch to tho railway lino, if it was within the Bpociticution?— TlmJ would depend on the height of tho bank. It was a three feet bank, mil the slopes of the bank would be four and a-half feet. Take half thoi width of the road-bed, eight and a-half feet, and add it to ton feetl would be eighteen and a-half feet, that Avould boa slope of Ilmi feet furl the berm, and that would bo the distance of tho ordinary line. 4799. I am asking for the extreme limit that there could be from ihJ centre of the ditch to the line, if it was in the specificatioii?— Takin'l the ordinary ditch it would bmiboutfbur feet. It would be impnssililotnrl any man to say what it would bo to the centre of the ditch, bocau>e itl would ^pend on the depth. 4800. Can you tell me tho extreme limit that it could bo?— Xo; [| could not. We have had them from ten feet to thirty feet. 4801. 1 am talking of the centre line of tho ditch, that won Id not] affect the depth of the durh ? — Certainly it would ; the bona is toiitleH from tho bottom oi the si :pe. 4802. If you hav:; "uiy fifteen feet to go and come upon from the oiit-l side of the j-ailway io the centre of the line, is it possible to get moi-ethai fifty feet from the centre of the line to the centre of tho ditch ?— Noj but we have gone outside of that. 4803. I started this part of the subject with asking you tlio tlistanco,! within the specifications, that could possibly exist between tho centi*, lino of the railway and tho central lino of the ditch ? — From tho central line of the railway to the outer limit of tho railway was fifty t'cot. 4804. Do tho specifications require that the ditch should be within! tie limit of the railway ? —There is nothing sail of that, that I uinj aware of, in tho specifications. 4805. May a ditch be made on the line of that railway oatsiile li'i)j feet, and be within the specification ? — I think not. , 4806. Then it must be within fiftj' feet to be within the specification 1 — I think 80. 4807. If it is within fifty feet and within tho specification, whati^thd greatest distance which can exist between the centre of tho ditch anj Lcentioof the li yitih to outside of t 4'08. Clin you at jliijttliut ditch is p 4%J. What is thi fcouM be made six it ^810. Now assum Idegroatortt distane« Lntro of ditch to th Uepih of the ditch, 4511. Can you to |lio spool tications fh iilway ? Have you Lusit tliore? — It v 4512. 1 am askin/; [jfihe ditch, what w -If you tell me the Irt come down. 4813. How deep c ji?-The slope woi 4814. Can you toll KJeon top? — Nino 4sil5. Can you tell teim then of five foe 4SI6. Can you ta 'citainly ; it loaves : 4817. Xow then, fr Jfbicli could exist bel line of the railway ?- m ditch. 4818. But, in spoal jTiiy I am describing, Ibt could be made, i peadilch fifty feet 4811). lam talking lam li'viiig to get y liisn foity-iour feet 1 ircatcr length than t 4S20, Vou understi forty-foil r feet three i •1S2I. In this case i |t(lto tho railway, w 4822. Can you tell Itat it could have boe have been unde leuiie of the lino. 31t MOLLOY |tli,iioiiti»J "^ tho lino? — It would bo tifty foot from tho contro of tho liiuh to oul«ido of the lino. 4;08. C'ln you anwwor my quostion ? What is tho narrovvost width iiittlmt ditch id pormittod to bo made? — Thut would dopond upon 4^ijJ. What is tho ruirrowo.st width that tho ditch ciu bo nuidf^? — It tiulii b« mado six inchos. ^810. Now UHHUminir that it is six inches wido, can you not toll mo LeLToatortt distance that could exist within tho Bpocidcutions from tho Lti'o of ditch to tho centre of tho line? — It would dopond upon tho Liiioltho ditch. 4SII. Can you toll mo the greatest distance that could exist under lliespocitit'Utions from tho centre lino of tho ditch to the centre of tho jilwjiy? Have you not powers of calculation enough to state thai, as iiusit tiiore? — It would depend on tho depth of the ditch. 4812. 1 am askin/r ^'ou, supposing six inches to be the nairowost point fiho ditch, what would be tljo distance from tho side to tho centre? -If you toll me the depth, I can tell you ; it must have a certain slope ) come down. 4813. How deep could tho ditch be mado if it were six inchos wide on lop?— Tho slope would be nine inches. 48U. Can you toll mo the depth of a ditch that would bo six inches rale on top? — Nine inches. 4815. Can you tell mo what is the width of that ditch ? — There is u m\ then of five feet nine inches taken olf tifty feel. 4816. Can you take off five feet nine inches from fifty feet? — Irtainly ; it leaves forty-four feet three inchos. 4817. Now then, from that basis, can you loll me tho greatest distance irhicli could exist between the centie line of the ditch and the centre 1 of tho railway ? — No, I could not; it all depends on the dej ■alUvMr Coil* •triictiaii — Ouiitrart No. II. ContrNrlorM' CInIiiii). Tli>> illlnll rr)u!il l)t) lllilili> six luclii's wule. ilopi-ncls oil i\u\ ilopthoi' tluitliteh. Til 11 (lltcli of six ih('llC8 Wlllu (III top the slope would bo niiit! l..oheH rikI a biM'in of tlvt) t'oet nine Inoluvs. FIvo foot nine iiK'lics from lifly feet nlvos tort 7- foiir loci tliii'i! Indies. Jptl 1 01 Ike ditch. 4818. But, in speaking of tho greatest length Avhich could exist in tho I am describing, you must take, I suppose, the narrowest ditch Ihat could be made, in order to maintain tho greatest length V — Then lake a ditch fitly feet wide. 481!). I am talking of the greatest length and not the shortest longth, am trying to get you to calculate. Could you have a greater length hsn forty-lour feet three inches? — No; I could not possibly have a greater length than that if it were a six inch ditch. 4520, Vou understand now that you could not have a longer line than forty-four feet three inches on that basis '—No. 4521. In this case you say the centre lino from tho ditch, as execu- From ceiitrc line led to tho railway, was ninety foot ? — Yes. 4822. Can you tell me how much that exceeded the greatest longth Wit could have been unJer tho spocitication ? — Tho greatest length it kid have been under the spociticatiou would be tifty feet from tho leuii'e of the line. to the ditch ninety feet. MOLLOY 318 Railvray Von- Hlruclioii. ruutrnrt Wo. 14. Contrat- tors' Claliiiti. Extent of extra Iwaul forty-llvo I'l-et nlno Inches juore tlmn Itcould liave been It tlu; ditch had becu within Uiespt'clll- catlon. Instructions 7iot to liave ditch less limn four feci. l'"()rty-six foet a fair average for excess of haul. Cost of extra haul tocontractois. Avernt'e day's woTK for a man, ten yardfeof earth. 4823. T am talking about the contro line of the ditch ; sm-elv voa nmst undorBiand what 1 am saying? —That would ho forty- five feci nin J inches. 4824. Then do you mean that the length cvoi' which this earth had to lie hauled from the ditch to the railway was on an average t'orivtiv. feet nine inches more than it could possibly have been if the ditfii ! had iiecn within the specification ? — ^'es. 4325. It has been suggested that it would be impo.ssible, undor th" specification, to make a ditch so narrow as six inches. J)oy()ii | unly in estimating the po.ssible length ?— That is the smallest ditcli thm could ])(>ssibly be made. 4827. Could _;-ou make it as low as that under the tpocifioation?- Those woi'o o\\v insnuctions, but wo had to make a ditcii aftorwwJs less than four loot. 4S28. Have you ever calculated, in your own ^vay, to ascertain the average extra haul mtido by Sifton cV Ward on this particular work from the haul that would have been requii e I it' it had been maae undti- the specification ? —No ; I never made such v. calculation. 4829. Do you think that forty-five feet nine inches is a tair aveia:.' for his excess of haul ? — Ves ; suy forty-six leet in round figures. 4S30, Do you think there was that much excess of haul ?— 1 do. 4831. I suppose the loading and unloading of the barrow would huve to take ])lace, whether the haul was long o>' short ? — Uertjiiiiiy. 4*532. It would only be then for the time occupied in the excc's.>iv. haul? — Yes; f)r going b.ackwards and forwanls and making iho plunk i>n which to wheel the barrow. 4833. Have you any idea how ftxr a man can pro])eI a bariow of eaith in a day's work ? — No; I never rnudo any such calculation. 4834. It is only the propulsion of this barrow of earth for which they make the claim, as I understand? — Yes, and there is the corning back, 4835. Is that jjropellir - backwards? — They iraw it backwanl-. 4S36. I mean it is the locomotion of 0.^ barrow? — Yes; and that would make about ninety feet instead of twenty. 4837. I am directing my questions now to the value of this extra! haul, or rather the cost of it, to Sifton it Co.: that would dopciid on [ the value of a day's labor, would it not ? — Certainly. 4838. The length that a man could so propel and haul a harrow in a I day's labor? — Yes 483!V You sav that you have never considered that question ?— Xo;, becuuse some will do a good deal more than others. 4840. In several days' labour you take the average o( a man's strength. Have you never estimated how much a man can do in a day's \vork?j — Yet; ; as a rule about ten yards. 4841. Have you made the calculation? — Yes. 319 MOLLOY ot plank iinil trestle work. Tliompson, eni;l* lU'cr lu cliargc. Rail^vny Con» Htriivtion — 4S42. t^oi' the same reason you can calculate how far a man would <^""*«""*'t ^»- **- . i,,^pel a barrow? — 1 am speaking from experience that a man can ^^^iiiims""*' escavate about ten j'ards a day. 4>j43. Have you in any way formed an opinion of the value of this .s^iftons extra fxti'a liaul of Sifton & Co.'s ?--U would beat least one third more. j;;^;|;,°\\%^{.\'^;' [heir osliniatos were one-third less. a yar'ti. 4S44. Do you mean that from making up the estimates from time to riiie you have ascertained that any given number of men take out one- lliiid loss, with this long haul than they would have taken out if they had jiilvtho regulation haul ? — Yes, than they did on other portions of the ifladwith the same quantity of earth. 4'45. Then assuming the value to be 26 cts. per yard, you make ;|iec(Mt to the contractor of this extra haul about 9 cts. per yard ? -Ves, about that ; one-third or a little under 9 cts. per yard. 4840. Would he be entitled to something besides that for providing contractor entit- [ plank and trestle work on which those barrows were wheeled ?— Yes ; more o?i&minn\i jitook a great deal more for the long haul than for the short one. 4847. Have you estimated what would bo a fair price for that? — No; itwasdoise by the men before I had anything t^ do with that part, and I could not give an estimate. It was a very expensive work, the men tad to make the plank with broad axes and small axes in the woods. 4548. Who was your engineer in charge ? — Mr. Thompson. 4549. Wore you one of his assistants? — Yes. 48'>0. At the time that the work was going on was it discussed [letween you and Mr. Thompson whether it might be the foundation of ;i(l;.im between the contractor and the C4overnment ? — He said it would teun open claim, that ut prescut Mr. li)wan controllei that ditch as an ort'-lake drain. 4851. Was it the prajtice to move the earth from otVtake drains Tract ico as to oit- iiito tiio line of embankments ?— Nc. tak.Mirains. 4852. But in this case the material was moved from the ditch into •,lio ba'ik, as a rule ? — '^he bank wtis made out of the ditch. 4853. S'< that the practice in this instance was different to the practice Rule i.rokcii. :n respect to o^hor olf-take ditches? — Yes; according to the specitl- falion r"' , jke ditchos run at right angles to th(i line, while this ran paralk'i .>> the line ti>>'oughout ; there was no diversion or angle what- ever. 4554. Do you know what proportion of this material taken from this iJiieh was put upon the line? — I could not sa} that, because 1 arrived iheie before that portion of the road was disputed. 4555. Tpon another item of this claim — this change of location — do oiaim relating to I you remember the locality at which the change M'as made? — Yes; j 'j]h^'|ngeofioca- lavo been over the ground 485(). Was it made at more than one locality ?~Not that I am aware • |ef; it was made from the northern survey t:^ Iho southern one. 4857. I mean aboutthe locality on the line — for instance, the number i-ooniity of rtf the station? — It was made a short distance east of Brokenhead "^*'""8«- liiver—1 should say about station 1020. I would not be positive in that mutter, but if I had the profile I could tell. aVIOLLOY 320 ftailway Con> Mtritctlon— Contract No. t4« l/ontractors* C'lailllSa Line changed for n iiuinbcr of miles Itctween Broken- head to near Whltenioulli Elver. 'Quality of mate ri- al to be moved heavier in tlic new loealion. riiant^f lo sou 111 lu.ide it necessary to eross a greater Jeiifrth of Julius ^Muskeg. \Vork onsoutlicrn •ine 'S> to 8<) pi r cent- dearer. Tliree-fourthsof northern line voii'd have been worktHi at <'heaper rate. Manner of taking proRress esti- mates. 4858. Was it only in the neighbourhood of that locality ? — That i^ tho one I am cognizant of. 4859. For what length was it changed '-' — It was changed for ;i number ot miles, between Brokenhead to near Whitomouth River. 48()0. How far wan it changed at th.) modt extreme point ? — [n \\^^, neighbourhood of twenty miles. 4861. I moan what distance was it changed in the south ? — In isoin; ]>l:icc8 it might be a mile. I think a mile would be tho extreme distaiKo at any point. 4862. At the extreme point the new line was only a mile south o; the located line ? — About that. 486.^. Was there any considerable difference in the qualitv- ..t'l,. material which had to be removoJ, occasioned by that change' ii, tion ? — Yes. 4864. What kind of material was it upon the first located line?— The greatest part of tho northern line was high and dry, gravel ami sandy ridges. 4865. Did it cover any part of the .Tuliiis Muskeg region ? — Yes ; Inr. that portion of it was narrower and tho soundings were not so deep. 4866. So that change to the south made it necessary to ciws a greater length of the Julius Muskeg? — Yes; a more difficult pari. 4866^. The greater part of the northern line you say was satul ani gravel ? — A great deal of it was high — what wo would call dry ridiros - in fact it is from the neighbourhood of the old line they take out tho ballast for the purpose of ballasting tho road. 4867. Would that be done by hand labour, or would inacliiiKiy be used? — Horses, scrapers and waggons would be used. 48''8. Would that bo loss expensive to tho contractors than hau I labour with barrows ? — Certainly. 4861). What per cent, cheaper? — Were T the contractor mysjlt I would ,«ny 25 jier cctit. cheaper — perhaps 3(J per cent, cheaper. It would be iiO per cent, cheaper at least. 4870. Then it would cost nearly 50 per cent, more to do the sain.' amount of work on the southern line? — Certainly it would. The ^^'leatov part ol'the southern lino was covered with water until it was drawn olt. ■iSl]. How much of the western line do you thiik cr jRl have beon worked at this cheaper rate than the southern line? — Three-fourths ut' it. 4872. Could you state between what stations? — No; I would rallior state between what points. It is three years s' ,ce I have bee.i theio and I have forgotten the numlter of the statior -1, I wuul-i ?-ay ahdut station 1020, a poi it near IJiokcnhead Jiiver, u> statif n ."'40 near Whitcmouih ; that is as iio.ir as I can coi".e to m,. I w: noi swear to that. 4873. What is about the mileage of that distance?— Nearly twenty miles. •1874. In taking progress estimates of vvork executed do they numbi'i- frotn station to fetation in the es'im lies ? —No; not in returning Uio ct'timat' s, we uikc our eK^tiinatcs on tho lino f.om staticju to station biit- Tve do not re from station depend on hi 4575. Hav (Cst to which [could notd( the north lint line it would (liftcrenco in 4576. Not lot worked, h i.i.ar the addit those two lin( |ier yard chea 4577. You t i^'iS 1>.) yc work LO Si f ton !in;'tli of the s 'Jiose two poin 4^7;i. You n Vosj between 321 MOLLOY Iwu itll. re ix'OM I'll i> 1)1 Rnilway Con* atractlon— -(jjdo not return them from stations, but very often in a lump sum, or ^®"*«'»«=t Mo.i4. from station to station as the engineer in chai'ge would direct. It would cuim*.*"''' (iepend on his fancy, but on 14 it was done. 4575. Have you made up any calculation of the amount of extra cost to which the contractors would be put by this change of line ? — [could not do that, because I am not aware of the quantities that were on ihe north line ; unless 1 knew the quantities that were in the northern line it would be impossible for me to do it, but I have considered the (iifforenco in expense between the north and south lines. 4576. Not knowing actual quantities on the noyth line which was Northern nno lot woriced, have you any idea what percentajre of the south line should don'e*at*7cts*.^a'^ l-afthe additional price you have named? — Were 1 the contractor for yivrdcheaperiiian , ,. , "^ "^ T ij i I lu 4.1 !• J. a i. tlie southern one. these two lines to-morrow, 1 would take the northern line at 5 cts. iior yard chcajjcr than the southern one. 4877. You mean for the whole length of lino ? — Yes. 4.S'8 l>;)you mean by that that you think the extra cost of that \vork io yifton & Ward was as much as 5 cts. a yard over the whole !tii:,ali of the south line ? — I do think so; I am speaking of between ihcse two points. 4*^T'.i. You mean as far as it relate.-* to those twenty miles alteration ? — \es; between Brokenhead and Whitemouth. 4S30. Do you know what the object was in changing the location ? — jl do not, unless to make a nice i)iotile upon paper; that is the only !v;i;oii 1 could assign for it. rallit.'!' I\ tlnTO abimt |) near ';ir l>) Iwoniv linilR'i' (11 but- EatKliieer's Contract No. li. llu'-e you any other matter connected with the Pacitic Railway ciaim made by iiii h you wish to give evidence ? — I have some accounts which JJ^-nlnlffiu" *^"^" 1 ii^ ''le paymaster. 488 '«■ It i'^^2. J vol! wish to pioduco it? — Yes; 1 pi'oduco it. (Exhibit |\o. 'J:i.) 4S.^'', iiow did this account arise?— It arose by refusal of j)ayment. \-^8i. You mean refusal to i)ay it to you ? — Yes. 4SS5. Who refused to pay it? — The paymaster. 4*^fl. Who was the navmastcr ? — Mr. Nixon. lie mva: his reasons Nixon's reason . I • -ill r '.i /ii • .• 1' 1 -1 •. r for roliislnsi to inr.t doing so in that letter. (I'ointing to hxhibit.J pay this claim. > ■"'. ( see this is for an amount which you contentl was paid to a >'-' '--Ves; that is one of the letters. I had several of them destroyed. tl"^ . Did you employ the cook ? — Yes. 4SS9. In what capacity were you acting when you employed him? — |.\sii>*i,istant engineer on the road. ^'^'M). Was it on this same contract 14 ? — Y'es. l";!'!. Is it the common practice of assistant engineers (o employ hwks oil the road ?— It was the common praciice. 4S112. Were there an}' rules laid down about it?— No; there were finnilcs until this arose. •lSii3. I see that Mr. Nixon stales that you have k nilos of the service ?— Yes. not complied with 21 MOLLOY 322 m-': , CnifiiM'cr'H ClHiin— Contract No. 1 1, Witness accused of non-i'onipll- anee with riilen. Payment refused brn-ause be em- ployed a woman and Dot a man. Claitn for pay- ment to several cooks. Object ions to imy- mi-iit wbere men employed. 4S9A, What rule docs he refer to ? — That 1 should employ a poiN>L on my section and send him in to him, and then have him travel buck to my house. 4S95. Was that the u.sual practice ? — No ; never. 4896. Do you mean that you were not aware at the time of em])ioy. inj; this cook that it was ])art of the regulation.s ol' the service?— Xo. I Avas not. 4897. How wore you mad ^ aware that there was any contention on the part of the paymaster that such a regulation existed? — Payinoiu WHS refus 4898. Did ontion the particulars of that rule to you at the tinio payment was i' .sed ? — No ; the first payment that was refused wa< when I employed a woman instead of a man. Payment was refused on that account, because I employed a woman. 4^99. Is the employment and payment of this woman part of thi- claim of yours now?- Yes. 1 was a man with afam lyand [considered 1 should have a woman instead of a man in the house with my wife; consequently I employed a woman, and payment was refused. 4900. Was therj any rule at that time that cooks should he ineu cooks? — It was understood that on surveys cooks should be men. 4!>01. Is it on construction ? — I was not made aware of it. 4902. This letter alludes only to one cook, Paul Boucher? — He is a F'renchman ; there were several others. By referring to their liooks we can tind the whole *hing, and whether these men have been paid or not. 4903. By referring to what books?— The paymaster's looks. 4904. Is your claim for payment to other cooks as well? — Certainly. 4905. Then this letter does not refer to your whole claim ?—Xo, because I have no letters in reference to the whole claim. 490G. How much is your claim for payment to Boucher ? — I could not say just now. 4907. Does your claim consist of the payments to these two iudivid- als : the woman cook and Paul Boucher ? — There were others. 4908. But Avhat was the difficulty about those ? — Because they were employed in the same manner. 4909. You mean you did not send them to Winnipeg to report thoni selves? — Yes ; by not sending them to Winnipeg to report and having them come back again. 1 live thirty-three miles east of Eed Eiver. 4910. Is there any other objection to your claim than the two you have named : that one was a woman and that the other men cooks did not travel ^o Winnipeg to report themselves and come b.ick again? — Tha. 's the only objection made by Mr. Rowan. -1911. Have you paid these men and these cooks? — Yes. 4912. Was it the usual practice to reimburse to engineers the amount they disbursed to cooks ?— Yes. 4iU3. Have you paid those men ? — I have. Mr. Slfton carried oneot these orders in to get the wages for these men, and he was refused liecause I could not come — and tlic woman lefl me. 323 MOLLOY KiiKtneer'fl Claim— routiac't No. 14. 4911. Have you any other claim hesidos the«e? — None whatevei". 4015. There is here a claim for house rent? — The second claim is for claim for house hiHise rent, l»nt it is not in connection with section 14; th:it is on the '■*''^''> *-"•■'*'• l.ranch. 4910. What is the amount of that claim ?— 6237.50. 4917. How did that arise ? — When I went on the branch I suppo.sed 1 was to act as every other engineer on the road did, and that my rent would be paid and furniture supplied me. 4918. Was there any arrangement upon that .«nhject at the time you went to this house ? — No; not at that time. Mr. Rowan afterwards, in March, told me that he would see it would be paid. 4919. Is this the amount that you actually disbursed? — No; I did not ilisburse it all, because you see tiiere is an amount for furniture. 1 used my own furniture. 4920. ITow much of it did you disburse for rent of house? — Kor the >ix months and a half in Winnipeg I paid $20 a month, and for the five months in Emerson I paid $10 a month. 4921. The rest of the claim is for the use of your own furniture? — Yes. 4922. At the time you rented this house you say there was no under- standing upon the subject? — No ; not at the time. 4923. You took it for granted that they would pay you ?— Certainly ; ljcei'""-e every other engineer on the roa 1 was paid . 4924. What is the objection to paying it? — I do not know what the ■ilijection is, but it was i-efused. Mr. Brophy, when he came up here kist bummor, was willing to pay it. I put in the bill and he signed it. 1 sent it to Mr. liowan and he refused to pay it, so Mr. Brophy told me, 4925. IIave3'ou Iwid any connection with the Canadian Pacific Railway "iVMleMo„^""" besides these two matters on which you have spoken ? — I was on the Fe"»»». Branch. Pembina Branch line a little over a year. Contract No. 5. 492G. In what capacity ? — In charge from Red River to Emerson — Oltcrburn Station it is called now. 4927. That is on the South Pembina Branch ? — Yes. 4928. What is the length of that part of the branch ?— About forty milen. 4929. Was it on construction ? — Yes. 4930. For what time ?— From 12th July, 1878, to 1st August, 1870. 4231. When did the road begin to run?— The first rail was laid on comnu-.i ii to be 22nd November, 1878, and then they commenced to run forward {"""•j^f^l'.'^*'*''''"' mil they connected. They were laying the road from both ends. They the unlil they connected. They were laying eommonced to run on them about the 15th Decemb'i- 4rf32. You were looking after the Government interests then ?_Yes. 4233. Who was your next superior officer ? — Mr. Rowan. 4934. Was the line built according to specification? — Yes. 21i Rowan next superior otticer. i MOLLOY 324 n fty Co •tnictfon— Pemb. Bvaurli. Contract Xo. 5. DHncultyl)etween iJoverniiH'iit and <'ontrHctor about ties. Instnicllons as to accepting lies. i'ontraclors flissatlsllcd. 4935. Was there any difficulty between the Crovornment and tho contractor upon that subject about the portion c^er which you "'ore in charge ? — There was some difficulty about ties, 4936. What was the difficulty ? — The frreat difficulty was that they were chopped instead of being sawed, and some of them were a Jittio short. 4937. Did you accept them as the engineer in charge? — 1 followed the instructions of Mr. Eowan. 4938. What were his instructions? — His instructions were, in tho first place, not to accept any that were not cut square on the ends anil of one length ; afterwards he gave me instructions to take them twu inches sliorter than eiij;ht feet, if they were cut with a short scarf instead of a long one and all the stub ends cut off. 4939. Did you accept them under these instructions ? — \cs. 4940. Then did that end the difficulty ?—[t ended the difficulty, but it did not end the grumbling of the contractors; they were not very well satisfied and they suffered a good deal. The ties were principally American ties ; they came from the American side of the line. 4941. Who was the pai-ty furnishing ihe ties? — Willis & Co, 4942. Was it a contract for ties alone ? — I believe it was a separate contract. However, that had nothing to do with nie; there were to bo so many tics at a certain price, and the Americans sup])lied a ocrtaia number of a certain length. 4943. Is there any other matter connected with the railway aljjiit which you wish to give evidence? — No. SIFTON. Telegraph maiatenauce- Coutract So, J , Expense of keoj)- ing line In repair and operatlnj; $5,1W a year. Becpiptsof Hue. About $lo() a montli. John W. Hifton's examination continued : By the Chairman : — 4944. Can you give the estimate which was alluded to in your fbniioi' evidence about the telegraph line ? — I think 1 can. I can give veiy nearly an approximate estimate. The expense of keeping the line ii. repair, operating, and wages, about $5,100 a year. That include? renewals of poles. 4945. I suppose it includes repairs of every kind : wire and other matter necessary to maintain the line in good order? — Yes ; and oper- ating as well. The receipts of tho lino vai-y very much. The first two years it was very small — perhaps under $400 a year — but it has kept increasing from that time to this. It runs from $100 to $150 a month. It is about $150 a month at tho present time. It is very uncertain. Some months we have a very small amount of business over the line, but that is about the as erage. 4946. Have you not made up the aggregate of tie expenses for repairs and maintenance from the beginning until now ? — I have not. 4947. Have you for any particular period ? — No, I have not ; but I can do it very nearly, I think. I think the books are in such a shape I could get it. 325 S1FTOM 494''. In your opinion has the cost of repairs, and maintenance, and operating exceeded the amount of receipts ?— It has not exceeded the receipts — that is including what I have received from the Government as well as the profits of the line. 4949. I mean irrespective of that item ? — Yes; voiy much exceeded. The maintenance, and operating, and keeping in repair have exceeded the receipts at least 300 per cent. 4950. In round numbers can j'-ou say about how much you have expended up to this time in maintaining, rejairing, and operating ? — Aljout $20,000. 4951. Can you sav about how much you have received for the use of the line?— About''«5,000. 4952. I suppose that under your contract with the Government you were obliged to maintain and repair the line to the same extent as j'ou have (lone now, and whether j'ou operate it yourself, or whether the (iovornment or some one else operates it ?— Yes. 4953. There has been no excessive cost on account of operating it yourself ? — No. 495 i. What has it cost you to operate the line altogether, up to now, independent of the maintenance and repairs? — About $5,000: some- thing less than that. 4955. So that setting off the receipt'^ against the operating expenses, ihe receipts are only a little higher? — It is about the same thing. There is very little difference. 4956. Your receipts are improv ing each year? — Yes. 4957. How much longer have you the privilege of I'ctaining the receipts? — One year. 4958. What do you estimate the probable receipts at ? — T estimate the probable r- iptw for next j'car at about $2,500. Tiaesrapll Malnteuaave— C»nti-aft i\'u. 1. Malnlonanci! has exceeded reeelpt* by M) per cent. f 2i),iW sponf. on mnlntenaiioe and i)perating to date. }5,(MiO reeelved Ibf use oi line. Round to main- tain lin(> under contraot. iF."),nno spent on operaling alone. 4959. And what do you e-»timate the probable expenses of operating only?— About $i,L0O. 49(10. So that on the whole transaction you will probably be a gainer to ilie extent of $1,300 in the jMofits over and above the operating ox|)enses? — Y''es ; 1 think that will cover the whole. It is a veiy fair c>tiniate. I would just like to say that the greatest exporse for repairs has originated at or near Lake Manitoba — near Dog Lake. Thei'e is ii place tliei'c where, although the swamps are not deep, there is con- siderable water, and the great difticulty has originated there and at tbo rossing of Lake Manitoba. We had agreed with the Government about a certain arrangement to cross the lake by driving in piles and a'lting the poles on them, but the poles did not remain there. In con- sequei co of that we have had to cany the line around through a swamp a good distance. You were asking me the other daj'^ if there was not a irood deal of complaint about the keeping up of the line. All our liitticulty arose in that place. There is a section of about eight or ten miles where there is a great deal of water, and it is very hard to keep np the poles, as the wind blows them down. As to the c^vst of the line, it has cost me about $15,000 more than I received from the Government ; that is, provided 1 receive the balance of percentage that is retained siill in the hands of the Government. Probable receipt tor ensuing year, iL'.-'iOd. $l,'_H)Oe.slunatc for operating. Balnneo in favour of contractor in a coniparl.son be- tween profits and oi)eratlng. Most expensive part of contract. ■ « SIFTON 326 Tflr|n-a|>h MaintrnRiire— Cwiiti-nct So. 1* l'..» Worst xpasoii of the yeftr lor nialnttinancc : . I line to August. Arransjcmeut Willi h'leming ns to puttins; in plli;^ whfre I lu're was watfr. Poles ami piles carried away. Cli»iiiionOovern- ment for making pier and flllliijr with stones. 4n(jl. You credit tliut to the transaction a.s if you wore »ure to^cx ii? — Yos; I will be out of pocket about $15,000 upon the conbtriietion. 4962. Irrespective of the operating? — Ye.'^. 4963. The operating will save you to the extent oi'$l,:>00? — Yes. Bi/ Mr Kee/er : — 4964. What i.H the worst seatson of the year to maintain it? — Fri.in the beginning of Juno to the middle of August is the worst aeuioa nf the year. By the Chairman : — 4965. I think you have .said that you had acquired the interest of thf whole firm ? — I hud. 4966. When you speak of this loss, it is of the loss to the whole tiim ' — Yes. 4967. I think you said 5 ou had an urrangc-raent with the (io\or;i- ment about putting in poles? — Yes. 4968. With whom was that arrangement ? — With Mr. Fleming. 4969. What was the arrangement ? — In our contract we had so iiukIi a mile for prairie, and eo much a mile for wood land. 4!*70. But nothing for carrying it over water ?— Nothing for tMiiv- ing it over water; but this was a greater extent than it could bo (-iV- lied over with one span, and we made an arrangement with .Mr, l-'leming to put in piles there. It was thought that by putting in piles and connecting the poles with them that they would stand, and wu drove the piles in in the winter. 4971. Was that done on your own account? — No; under an inidor- standing with Mr. Fleming as to what was to be done. Then, iu the next spring, they all went away. By Mr. Keefer : — 4972. Was it with the ice ? — Yes ; in the spring the water rises theio before the ice goes out. 4973. Were the piles carried away or only the poles ? — Yes ; tlio poles too By the Chainnah : — 4974. How was it managed then ? — Afterwards we made a pier with piles and filled it with stones. 4975. The Government did not assist you in that ?— No; we were to receive $2,000 for the first work we did there. 4976. You mean in this water stretch at Lake Manitoba ? — Yes ; and at Bog Lake. 4977. Did you furnish the poles and everything under this arrani^'e- mcnt with the Government? — Yes; but they would not stand. 4978. Has that claim been paid ? — No. 4979. That is still a claim on your part against the Government?— Y'es. 49S0, Ls there any dispute about the correctness of it ? — No; I (b not think there is. 327 SIFTON T<-It'Kraph MaintraHai-e— 4!)S1. Has it Ijeon u Huhjoct of (Jiscurtsion or iirgumoiit between yon Couirmt No. i- •ami the Dopartmont ? — No, 49S2. 1h there any othtM- mntter cotmocte 1 with the Canadian Pacitic Jliiiluiiy vvliitli you wish to explain ? — No; nothini^ else. CiiAur.Es WiirTEiiEAb's examination oontinucil : By the Chairman: — 49S.'). Do yon know anything about the arrangeraont between your ialher, the contractor for section 15, and Sifton, Ward & Co., contractors tor li, respectively, for the finishing of the east end of section 14 ? — I had .some convei'sation with the contractors, Ward & P^irwell, as to (he completing of it. 40S4. Ilow was that, conversation brought about ? — Between Mr. Farwoll and myself, lie suggested the propriety of my father doing the work. 4!)35. Did I uiulerstand that at this time you wore acting for your father? — Yes; he suggested the propriety of doing the workfoi- Sil'ton, Vv'ai'd & Co., and completing that particular fill— this heavy till. By !•() doing, their price, if allowed for extra haul, would be some- thing over 81 per j-ard. 408b'. Was that understood to be the result at that time? — Yes, that was his agreement, you will understand, with me, that wo should do it for them, and that would be the result if it was done for them — that they would get the extra haul, which would bring up the to ;il to over $1 per yard. I told them E did not think tho Government woulil stand that kind of deal; that they would not have it. I told him that ifwc did complete it we would complete it under the Government, but 1 did not think my father would complete it for them. I advised with ray father to that effect — not to complete it for Sifton, Ward & Co. ; and whatever arrangements he might make to make thom through tho Uovernraont for the completion. I told him I thought there wuuld be no ditficulty in getting -aO cts. per yard for com.pletmg it. 4087. Was that to include all the haul recossary ?— Yes. By Mr. Keefer : — 4!)88. Taking the earth from the same place? — Wherever wo could get it. By the Chairman : — 4989. Finding it at your own risk ?— Finding it at our own risk and tilling it for 40 cts. 4990. What did that lead to?— Mr. Marcus Smith came alon^g just about this time — ^just after this conversation had occurred — and 1 told Mr. Smith that I thought ray father would fill it for that price — for 40cts. per yard. Mr, VVard was up about that time. He spoke to me about it and said that he wanted that we should do it. Henry Sifton — I don't Ivnow whether he is one of tho contractors or not, but he was doing that end of the contract — wanted to fill it himself, so Mr. Ward told me, but that he would not listen to anything of the kind, that he had CHARLES WHITEHEAD. Knil«vn>- Coil- MlriU'lloii — Cull tract Nu« lli ^vUU Stilton A Co, Farwoll .suniieslod, to witness tliat witness's latlicr KtiDUld linisli work III I'fist cnA ol coutract 1 1. Nature of iicsjotl- ations (IS to doing work. Antlcipatod prico forcomplellnsiflU 40 cts. a yard flndlD»; the earth at their own rislc. O. WHITEHEAD 328 4' ,MI : ■all%vaT Coic utrucUou— Contract No. 14. A Kreenirnt with Mlftou * Co. Ward desired ti) have his llrm relieved of tlio contract.and thnt Whltohoad KhouUl do the nil- fiulshcd work. Iffclpinfc IVctvg- pHpcro) Ak. Knows nothinpr of arraiifiements With Mackintosh. enough" of 14, and ho vvantoJ that we shoull do the balance of tl,, work for the Government and (hat they should bo relieved of it. 4991. Wh8 that what Mr. Ward wanted? — Yes; that they should bo relieved of the contract, and that we were to complete it. 4992. Do you mean that that portion of the line which you wt'io to finish should no lonffer bo dealt with as between them and ihj (lovernment? — Yes; and that we should complete it. 4993. That it should be dealt with as if it were never part of tin contract? — Yes. l/»94. Do you know whether his partiiors agreed to that proposition, — 1 talked to Mr. FarwoU afterwards and ho seemed to think ho. 4995. Was it from that tidk with Mr. Farwoll that you undoistdu,] ho agreed to it ? — Yes, I think so; they all seemed to be agieeul.tlo ii it at the time. 4996. Was it spoken of between you and Mr. Farwoll after you Im,! had the talk with Mr. Ward, as a matter that should bo regarded a-i ii ii had never boon in any way part of their contract ? — Yes; that wax tlm understanding with mo. Every time I talkcl with him and ovei-y con- versation I had, 1 think that they woro glad to got rid of it. 4997. Did ho load you to understand that ho was willing tluit th. matter should bo arranged as Mr. Ward proposed? — I did not tell hin. anything about what Mr. Ward had said to me. 4998. On a similar basis, then ? — Yes ; ho seemed to bo quite satiistiiM with the arrangement. 4999. Woro you present at the time the arrangement was concludwl between your father and them? — No; I generally talked these mat tors up, and then told my father what would bo best to do, anil then lu' did that part of the bus'noss here. 1 gave him my ideas what I thought he ought to get, and what it would be done for. 5000. So that what you know of the final arrangeraenis was from convei'sations before that with Ward, Farwoll and Henry Sifton ?— Yts; and with my father af'Lorwards. 5001. Is there any other matter connecied with the finishing of the line upon which you wish to give evidence ? — No ; there is not. 5002. Do you know whether the agreement between Farwoll am! your father was submitted to any legal yentleman? — I am not cortaiii, I recollect tolling him, however, at the time to bo sure that ho did not have anything to do with Sifton, Ward & Co., that we wanted our transaction to bo with the Government cn<^irely. 5003. Did 1 understand that .you managed generally the affairs oi your father in connection with this work? — On the worlc entirely, ami when he was away L managed his finances hero. When he was away 1 would go into town, but mj' business was chiefly to attend to the work. 5004. Did you at any time attend to work for him at other places; at Ottawa, for instance ? — 1 did not do much for him at Ottawa. 5005. Did you have any transactions for him at any time with Mr. Mackintosh, on his account ? — I do not know anything about the Miu- kintosh affair, only from hearsay. I do not know anything of my own knowledge. 329 O. WHITEHEAD Rent Bftin to MiicklnioHli for ftcceptanci^N. H<-l|tlnK IVr\^M- |i«p<-r«« Ac— 500C. Did you iissidt in dealing with Mr. Mackintosh as to the return t'®"*'****®**- otiiny monoy or paper, or anything of that kind ?— Yos ; J did not go to Mackintorth myself, but I had my father's attorney go to him, 5007. Who WBH that? — Mr. Bain. j(i03. Was Mackintosh hero? — No. Mr. Bain was in Ottawa. 5009. Was that Mr. Bain of the Hrm of Bain & Jilanchard ? — Yes. 5010. Did you know Mackintosh personally, at that time? — Yos, I have seen him. 1 think I saw him when I was down there, but 1 never mentioned about the transaction to him. 5011. Was it done entirely through your attorney and Mackintosh? -Yes; it was done with Mr. Bain. 5012. What was the result of the transaction ? — I think ho got back Acciptantos to ,ny t'ather's acceptances for about 811,000. i':v"n up'" *^''""*'' 5013. Did you seo those acce])tances ? — I think I have, but I would not bo certain. 5014. Were they got back by Mr. Bain at the time that you were ilioie? — Yes ; they wore got back in December last. 5015. Had they matured Ijofore that, or were they running? — I winild not bo sure, but I thiLk they were running. 501G. Did you say you do not know whether you saw them then or ;i», iiny time since? — 1 think I have seen them hero at Mr. Bain's ottice, but I would not be sure; I know he got thorn. 5017. Who was it i-etained Mr. Bain at that time? — I think it was ajrreat deal through myself. 5018. J'id j'ou take any pai-t in the instructions to Mr. Bain? — Only in this way : I felt that my father had been — 1. do not know how •.npiii it exactly. Ho wont and got the acceptances back. 1 knew that ;liL' acceptances had boon given in this way: when my father was invay some of those accej>tances would come up here; some of thom I Aoukl ]>ay, but others I would allow to go to protest. I wanted to know from my father if Mackintosh had other acceptances, fi i \e said lie had, but he did not know how much. Mr. Bain and I ii :>! talked ihi matter over as we would any of my father's business transactions, and Mr. Bain, as well as myself, thought it was only right that wo should endeavour to get the acceptances back. I do not know that my lather said that we wore to got them back. Those were matters Ivory ia'(iiK'iiily said nothing to hiin about until I got thom made right. 501J). Then you did what you thought was in his interest, sometimes without his authority ? — Yes, when 1 felt that ho had been swindled. That is the idea. 5020. Did you say that those acceptances would sometimes come up 'II lie paid by you ? — Yos, when my father was away ; otherwise 1 would rxver know of them at all. 5021. Can you say what all the acceptances given by him to Total amount of Mackintosh would amount to, judging from what you have seen ?— I ^''t;«ptanfes given ^oulil not be quite positive ; I should say over $30,000. 5022. Have you any moans of knowing liow much of them has boon j paid from your knowledge of your father's business? — I could not say C. WHITEHEAD 330 aielpliiK Xewi* |il»l>«ra, 4k9- — Coniri»ctMo.l4. |,^^ ^,„.|, j,y^^ jj^q,^ ^^jj^ Jj„,_ | ^j,i„|^ SDlUOthin^' ovor $20, (}()() ill loiiii; AhoutiavKjopaiii numborM. I may bo mi.stakon ; it may bo nioro, it may bo los; hm j liJive tbut klcii from wbut I huvo soon. 5023. J)o you know, or huvo you any roason to boliovo, thutuDv "in or promise, or udvanta^o, was promisoii or miulo by your latliur io anv one, on account of this transaction ; the contract for soction 1,"( f—\ ,], not know of an}-. Homunoration do you i.ican ? 5024. It may have boon a bonus; I am spoakins^ of ^iftx as woli ;,. lomunoration, or nny kind of udvautago? — I do not know. I caini,,; say that I do. 5025. You arc nwaro that 1)0 has givon scmothint,' to Sutton \ Ti\om])Son and somothin^ to (Jharltoii ? — Vos; from what ho tolls nii- 602G. And this amount to Mackintosh ? — Vo?; from what ho ti'llMn T know that lio has I was oxasporatod at b' 'oing aiiylhii,' so silly, 5028. Was thoi-e anythi;ig else about this matter upon which }•■ i wished to give evidence ? — No; I do not know that there is. SUTHERLAND Vi.irt VrnncfH Ijuck. Resident In Win- nipeg (luring six years. Took charge of work at F'ort Frances Lock at the opening of navigation, 1875. WiN.Mi'EO, Monday, 20th September, ISSo, IIuoii SuTiiERLAN'D, sworn and oxtunined : By the Chairman : — 5029. Where do 3'ou live ? — In Winnipeg. 5030. How long have you lived hero? — I have been heio otiamlor, i for six years, but I did not come here to reside permanently until about a year ago — that is I did not bring my family here until last winter;] but still I niny say I am resident here for six years. 5031. Was this your headquarters for business purposes? — Ve^ tlii^i was my headquarters; in the summer time especially. 5032. Where was your principal residence before a year ago?— la i this country. Of course I was travelling backwards and forwanii through the country and down to Ontario. 5033. Were you engaged on any business connectid with tho Canadiuii Pacific Railway at any time ? — Nothing, unless tho Fort Francos Lo.kj is included in that. That is the only thing. 5034. Assuming that to be a portion of the works of tho Canadian] Pacific Railway, then you were ? — Yes. 5035. When were you first engage! in that?— I think I first to)ki charge oi that work in 1875, - 5036. What time of the year? — About the opening of navigation. 5037. In what capacity were you engaged ?— I suppose it was in tin capacity of superintendent of the different works— really inspector. :vM SUTHERLAND fort Frniii-rit 5ii:!8. lii^pot'l'"' o' w'l"''''' — Of various jmblic works. Fort Kruiuo- T,K'k wu-* 11 portion, and the (iovernniont Buildings wu-st at HiittlofoiMl a,,,i K(.rl l^'lly- jOHit. Do y.. .;. :..t...i I I ; 1..... ... wlilcli III' was «'iii|)loyeil. '0 IV riioro wore mon appointud under mo, and it wab my duty to oin place to place and report. 5iU0. lliid you |)owor to dii-oct the 0|)erations as well as ins])e('t Ljujii^ '_Yos ; I had power to direct the operations in anything that (aiiio within my instructions. J041. Tlien whatever may have boon the name of the otlice, it was tiict nuuiagor as well as ins|K'ctor ? — I presume it was ; it would br hn niiMO tiiat of general manager, I .suppo.sc. ,'ii)i:}. Had you any written instructionn when you first took charge of Rocrivci writtou iiiieL'iekHat Fort Francos? — Yes ; 1 always received written instructions unle'ro'i'imo.''"'* Itinni lime to tirao on what to proceed with. 5ii|3. From whom did thoso insli'uctions come generally ? — fJenerally Ifrim tlio Secretary of the Public Works Department, upon the authoi-- li!v, 1 suppose, of the Minister. It generally comes Irom the Secretai'v. .i044. You assume, of course, that they were projjerly authorized ? [-Yes; 1 suppose so. 501."). Did you report to the Kngineor-in-Chie'" Mr. Fleming, at any Ahvay^spnt IiN |tinio.'-Xo, 1 think my reports wei-e all sent to tho Secretary of the |",';|?y o? ^^^7,7"* IPiiblic Works Department, because it was from that Department I got Works. iii^lriiclions ; of course I reported to him. 5046. Were the opej-atioiis directed by the Enfiineer-in-Chiof? — Some- sometimps ron- I , , ,\ , *' " Sllltl'll Kiisrliiei.T- |imie>' no was consulted. in-ciiifr. 5047. By you ? —Yes, occasionally I consulted him; but 1 always loiidci'stooli that my directions came from the Department. 1 did not IkDOw whether there was any ditt'erence. My instructions came from Secretary. I do not know whether they came througb the engi- ineers. 504^. Vgu did not consider yourself a subordinate of the Kngineers iDepurtment? — No ; I had nothing to do with the engineei*sat all, except home person who was appointed specially for my work. 5049. Was any person appointed to take cl.arge of engineering mat- Iters on that work ? — Yes. 5050. Who was that ? — I believe the first one appointed was Mr. Mor- |timcr, a civil engineer. 5051. What was his duty ? — He locat'jd the works at Fort Francos On iiis iiepait.ura land surveyed them; then Mr. Ha/.lewood personally inspected them "W'*" '*<''^**- land gave instructions. After that Mr. Mortimer was sent away some- jwhcre, and subsequently Mr. Rowan did anyth ng that was required in Itbe engineering line. 5052. Do I understand that Mr. Mortimer resided at the Locks when Ite was employed there ? — No ; he was surveying lu the vicinity of the jWks before wo commenced to have a local engineer in that pait of the Iwuntiy. This work was assigned to him until he wa^ removed to some lotbor place, and then Mr. Hazlewood took charge. Morllmor ap- pointed il8 engineer. SUTHERLAND 332 Port Frft.nc'«H No cuKinoer In cliarj;i' >>I the works ; Mortimer, llazlewood i. lul l-!o\van exeroiseil cncli a partial Mipcr vision. CMiartiflpr oC ('ni.'iiu'<'rinii sii))- crvlsifiii. No pf^rinnncnt cliiirtro. 5053. Ditl Mr. Hazlcwojd rosido there? — No^ ho resided at Tlimij Bay; but he was very often over the line. 5054. Over what line? — The Dawson route to Fort Franco.s. 5055. Who succeeded Mr. llazlewood? — I think Mr. Rowan follnve Mr. llazlewood. 5056. Did he reside there ? — No ; he resided here. Mr. Rowan v; then he was sent off for a while and came hack sigain — he was Ijuck aiij forward. 1 could not tell when he left there, hut Mr, Mortirnoi anl Mr. Haxlewood were sometimes t lure togotli"»'. The war I urideMai! the thing — Mr. Hnzlewood was chief man and 3Ir. Mo- ■iier wusciir^ ing out his instruction!-'. 5060. You think that Mr. Mortimv^r loft the j»lacc before the iiiuiai works of construction wore commenced? — No; he was there a l^hJ time doing works of construction. After laying the work out hewed away for a short time, came hack again, and he was there a "'^nsidirl able time during the progress of the woi k that year or next ^oar bcl it is pretty hard t(j say from memory : people change about s) oi theie from one ])lace to another. 5001. Did you get a plan of the F. )ck from Mr. Mortimer?— I 5062. Do you know where that is now ? — 1 might bo ab!c to tiiu 1 do not know whether one of the engineers or my assistant, who \v;i^ left in charge, has it. J tio not think there would bo any ditli'iii'y finding it. 5063. During all the time that those \v'orks were going on was tliert any porsoti residoMt at that |)lace who hud (diariije of littvciiiiei.!! interests, a-i far as engineering was concerned ? —Not alw i\>; ll'^ra were just the engineers I have mentioned who wore travelliiii,' .ilioiiy from place to ])lace. Sometimes they were resident tboiv. Mi'. Mirj timer had his headquarteis there; and Mr. Hazlewood fre(}uciitl.v raiiii^ over tlie line, he mado bis headiiuartoi's there in his proirress we>t. think further this vvay Mr. Rowan had charge of this end. Tiiat «;ii| the extent of his route, from Thunder Ray to Fort Frances. 5064. Wha* proportion of time after the works were comtr.cncci you think that .iOy ot!o repre-iu!! ting the Governmont interesl.-t was mi stantly at the woi-ks — I mean (lovernnient interests in engiiieerii','- I could not say, but 1 could say this: that tliero was no |ierni:i'""i! 333 SUTHERLAND Fort Fianvra p/iiieor iii charge. It would be very hnrd for mo to sum up tlie time at all these men were tlicre. 5i)ij5 Do you think that one day in the weolc was spent there by iintf Government engineer, i)utti-,ig all the days together? -It might ])Ossiblo. ■0S. I moan to ask if you can iell ? — No; I did not keej) any record ihcir time. 5067. Then ut ])i'e8ent you are not able to say that any person stayed nuich as one day in the week ut the works inspecting the engineer- i;?— No engineer was. )8. In the absence of any engineer,who looked after the engineering i„ tho ai.senooof oiiioiiofthe work?— That was lei t to the Ibreman over the work.-. ^■;;,f^",^f^'i;(^[;;:,„i- ftourse, the engineering of that work was not very great any way. eti enu'ineerhm tore was nothing very difficult about it, and after the plans w<\ro ^°'''*" cc drawn out and the levels all taken, it was not a very hai-d matter I'l'talon'', because it was very plain work; and if we at any time iii ciiscsor.Jifn- I any doubt about it being at the jtroper levels, we always had iiaaivcoursr to Kccss to some of the engineers, Wx. Hazlewood at one end and Mr. fj'.' 'j[o^|",'^'''^^''''''' fioffiin iit this ond. On one occasion we sent for Mr. llowan to come Lthoro, We thought there was something wrong with the levels, Ind ht went out and f-ettled it. There was not much difficulty after all, 5ili!9. When you say " wo," who do you mean ? — Myself, if \ happened Ik? there, or the foreman of the works, Mr. Thomjtson. 5010. How much of the time did you hnp])cn to be there? — 1 had, of WM', to travel about 1,200 miles. 1 su])pose 1 made two or three visits (iiriiij;' the summer there, and then up to Saskatchewan. 5071. -low long would each of tho.so visits be? — I would remain charnct•■ nuuh there was to uni-avel, and how much 1 ha(' to do. If I llioiight they were getting along well I did not sUiy 'ong and if they lOienot I used to stay until they were all right. .)072. How long used these visits to be? — .Sometimes a week — T have l\ knnv exactly where. The last jdace 1 know of him residing was at Walkoi- ton. He was at Walkertonat the time he was appointed by the Govimh. ment. Manner In which 5080. Do you mean ^t hat money was ])laced into his hands t'l [•e expended as he might direct ? — No; I had to countersign his clieiiue'. He was accountant ; he examined all accounts as to their validity, recommended all i)aymonts in connection with the works, and male I out the checiues. Ofcoui-se we had certain periods for payiiitc: and when i went into Fort Frances this was part of my work, to coimtei- sign these checjues and make out a statement and pay the niei?. It was principally confined to wages. The accounts for supplies wore certified and sent dirci't to the Department ; the J)epartmenl i.'^siiod cheques dii-ectly to the parties from whom supi)lie8 were jiurcliased. 50D0. Who certified to supplies? — I cei-tified to them, or Mr. Lo!,'mi certifieil to them. A portion of our supplies — I may say, in fact.aveiy large j)ortion of them — were purchased by the purveyor of the Canadian i J'acific Railway. 5091. Who was iliat? — He is now a Police Magistrate down holoff, Mr. Bothune. 5092. Whoie does he live now ? — I do not know ; I understand ■some- where at Cornwall ; ho is Police Magistrate at Cornwall, 1 think. 5093. Where did he live then?— His head office was at Prince! Arthur's Landing; ho was purveyor of the Canadian Pacific iJailway, NuppiicH. How supplies ■were procured 335 SUTHERLAND 50D4. ^V^h*^ informed him as to the quiititity of supplies whiuh would ij. ie(|uin'd for this work? — I presume the order would go from me. jnresiimc the list would be made up by somebody else. 5005. l^id it happen that 8U|)plies were sometimes ordered when you ^e-eiiway ?— Yes ; no doubt that is the case. 5flt)(;. How did those orders go fiom you ? — They would bo sent to Jlr. Bt'thuuc at Prince Arthur's LtipJing ; if thoy were short ot any- jlijng he had instructions to send anything that they were in need ol. 5097, Then those orders would not go through you ? — No ; if 1 Ijjjppened to be away they would not go through me. 5098. But you say there were oi-ders sent for supplies at times when vuu were away? — Yes. They hud a (Jovornment store at Prince Arlhiii's Landing from which they dealt out supplies. 50!i9. I am not speaking of dealing them out at the landing, but of i'dtioj,' tliom from Mr. Bethure, to be dealt out at the Locks. Who was re If witness was HWiiy ordors lor SUpplleH WHS scMit direct to Hfiliiiiu' at Prince Arthur's Luiidiu" Thiiiii|)S()n 1 'Sponsible Tor ii.sccrtaininii the snppllas rccjiiirc(t *>> Witness as a rule KHVC orders and KOt hlH prIceH at Toronto and else- \v 1 1 ere. SUTHERLAND Fori Frances Before certlfyliiK lur KupplleBwouId have 8hlpplDK receipts before )ilm. A bulldliiR do- voted to keeping «upplie8. C'lmractcr of «xpt^n(llture: for labour and '.supplier for workmeu. many men I would have, I cou'd make out all tb'ise lists myself. [ knew from practical experience how much we woula I'equire, and mail!! ouf, my orders in that way. Then I would get prices and give som,. person an order, and certify to this account when the gmxls \\\n. shipped. 5109. When you certified to those accounts for supplies, would vm have knowledge of your own whether they had been supplied or not' — Wo would have shipping receipts of railway or steamboat, or what- ever way they were shipped. 5110. And were these receipts based on your certificate as to qium. titles supplied ? — Yes ; of course we had a further check. If there wn< anything short we had the opportunity of following it up and ^eein- whether it was shipped at all or not, and corrected it in that wti}-, 5111. When those supplies reached the Locks, who had the ciisiody of them? — Mr. Logan, at first. 5112. Was he called paymaster ? — Paymaster and store-keeper; lut ho could not perform the duties of both otfices, they were too much lor him. 5113. Was tliere a building devoted entirely to the keeping of i1hm> supplies ? — There was. 5114. A separate building? — Yes. 5115. And had Mr. Logan charge of that as storekeeper ai lirst '— Yes; but he had an assistant. He supervised it. 51 KJ. Who was his assistant? — lie had difterent clerk* tlu'ie. i could give the names of several, Messrs. W"arren Marr, Beiitlcy im! W^ilson, that is all I recollect of being in the Store Departmem. 5117 Where does Marr live now ? — In IngersoU, I thiiilc. 5118. What is Bentley's first name ?— L. R, 5119. Where does ho live? — I think he is in Chicago. 5120. Did he live at Orillia?— Xo ; never. He was a hardwaro mi!.'i- chant here for years. 5121. What is Wilson's first name ?— G. M. Wilson ; ho live.- Iu;e. 5122. Who engaged these men as clerks to the paymaster?— I engaged them. 5123. W^liero did Marr come from ? — Tngersoll, 5124. Did you engage them down in Ontario? — (Tencrally; 1 Ik^I applications in writing from different parties, when I would go down below. Then, before the navigation opened, i had alvvays to oiig.ii;' u i-enain number of men, becau.-e I had to discharge the moii in the winter, and I had some point for them to meet me at. 5125. Do you remember where Bentley came from ? —He came f'r>m here, 1 engaged him here. 512fi. Do you remember where Wilson came from ?— From T'U'niito. 5127. The expenditure, then, was directly on account of labfuii woi k and on account of supplies for persons engaged on the works Yes. for 337 SUTHERLAND Furt PrnuctM Liook— 5128. Do vou remcmbor any principal branch of oxpenditiiro?— ^\j',*'p„*"*' Wages wafi tho principal branch of expenditure; the principal amount wuKes principal of money that was paid out by the paymaster was paid for wages. In branch of expen- nearly till cases, as far as possible, we sent the accounts to Ottawa ; we ^^^' ffere instructed to do so. 5129. Do you mean accounts for labour? — For supplies. Ofcourso we could not do that for wages, as men had to be paid the same as other people, from time to time, and that could not be done any other way. 5130. You think supplies would be paid for at Ottawa : I moan those -applies not furnished from the Government stores at Thunder Bay ? — Yes. 5131. Did you pay yourself for any supplies furnished ? — No ; unless there would be some small quantity for a travelling outfit, or something of that kind. 5132. Who had chaigi! of the principal office at the Locks, where tho Book-Ufeunijc liooks and accounts wore kept .'' — 1 suppose tho principal office would be the paymaster's office, that is Mr. Logan's. 5133. Who was head book-keeper? — My bi'other. 5134. What was his name ? — James. ')\:ift. What would his duty be ? — He kepi; the books — all the accounts ; iheinen'r* time ; in fact, he kept all the accounts. 5136. Was there a separate set of books for Lock works ? -Certainly. 5137. When was he engaged? — I think he was engaged with the tii'st outfit. 5138. Did you engage him ? — Yes. 5139. Had he charge of the moneys ? — No, the paymaster had chaige Pfiymaster im.s ufihe money; he could render v>hatever assistance the paymaster *''"^''*'*'"*^"""'"^* «iiiiled in making out the accounts. ")liO But I understand his duty was only to make entries of trans- actions accomplished by other persons ? — Yes. 5141. Had John Logan charge of the money? — Tho money was Money (Jopouted ■lepiisittd to my credit in the Ontai-'o Bank; but it could i:ot bo drawn *"itm^s^'^ "' without it cheque drawn by Mr. Logan, paymaster, and countersigiu-d kinyscir. We hail forms of cheques. 'il4'. Whiit bank was that? — We first commenced, T think, in the Moi'cliaiil's Hank, and then the account was changed to tho Ontario liank. witness's brof her .las. Sutherlanil, head book- keeper. 5i4!{ I>)I iHidoi'st;ind that no (lovornmont money was taken fi natters to which ; -That comprised the priinM lie Ijitnk. except to pay some of those matters to which you have ''"''** •"'""''i'"' iliiiiloii. Hint is, either wages or supplies? pal e.X|iOii(lituro. •Vi44. Aii'l the manner of taking it would ho l)y chofjuos, signed or wiiiitoisi-iu(l by yoii and signed by Mr. Logan ? — Vo>. 514.'). Which bank had the first account ?— Tho Meiclutnt's Rank lit 'ii'^l; but I do not think they had anything to do with the Fort Frances "iioiihL 1 think it wsis the Ontario Bank. The Fort Francos accounts wui-ekeiit in the Ontario Bank altogether. 22 ni WaitoN and sup- plies priiK'ii cxjicndlturu. SUTHERLAND 338 Fort Krancea liock- Paymcuta. Allr«f<-*l SIIh- Witness while employed by Government carried on no private business, but nilxlit have siioeulatod In iHUilS. Purehitsed no pine limits. Payiit<-ii Manner ot pay- men is. Manner In which funds were ob- tained from Ottawa. Sums drawn for payment of wa^cB generally carried to Ix>ck8 by Loiran. 5146. Did it remain at the Ontario Bank until you had finished tho worlis at the Locks? — It did. 5147. Was there any change in the paymaster — did any person stu:. coed him before the work was finished? — No. 5148. Then he i-evised all payments made out of Government moneys, on account of wages ? — Yes. 5149. And on account of those small supplies which were not paid at Ottawa ? — Yes. 5150. During the period that 3'ou were employed on behalf of the Government, during the years that you named, did you carry on anv private business ? — No; none. 5151. Nor speculations ? — I might have purchased some land oi something of that kind, but I did not carry on any regular businosfj, 5152. Did you purchase pine limits? — No. 5153. Are you interested in any pino limits purchased during that period ? — No. 5154. Did you at any time send men to look up pine limits or any other kind of land ? — Not during that time. 5155. Not while you were in Government employment? — No; ex(0|ii for Government work. 515(>. For the limber required for the Locks, do you mean? — Yes. 51'.7. Were men employed at thtTexpense of the Government to hum uj) timber ? — Yes. 5158. Did you become interested in any ot the land that these iiion found ? — No. 5159. Was the money paid out of the Ontario Bank in sums just suHicient to meet the cheques of Mr. Logan and yourself, upou the expenditure you have described ? — Yes. 5160. In what shape would the money go through for these purposes — 1 mean would it be by cheque or by letter ? — Large sums : wo would pay these by cheques ; but in paying the men we had to cany money out there; sometimes I carried it out and sometimes the payinasier would. 5161. In what .shape would the money go to the Ontario Bank for you from Ottawa ? — In the shape of a warrant. 5162. To what account would the amount of the warrant ho credited? — Port Frances, if it was for Fort Frances. 5163. Was that the name of tho accouii! ? — Yes ; Foi-t Fiances Look, My name would be attached to it, of course, as superintendent, and pel haps Mr. Logan's, I do not know. I never saw the bank account, but our che(jues were headed Fort Frances C.'inal, Dejiartmei/ of Pulilie Works, &c. We would make a requisition f >m time to time for this money — Mr. Logan and myself— to Ottawa; wo would rc([tiest them by a certain date to put so much money to our credit, and stating what we wanted it for as near as we could. 5164. You say that the money you would draw out sometiraes in large sums, for the purpose of paying wages, &c., would have to l)o carried down 10 the Locks? — Yes. 339 SUTHERLAND Fort Frances liock - 51(;5. By whom ? — Gencnilly by Mr. Logan or raysolf. Payment*. 516tj. I suppose that would appear in the bookftofthoestublishraont ? -Yes; but wo made out a che(iuo in that shupe, and wo would say, to nay wajjes of mon, bocauso any man who would take a cheque for his account wo would ^\ve it to him, but if thoy would not take cheques ttp would have to have money ; some men would not take cheaues. ^*^ " '' ' ^ No public money 5167. Bid any of these moneys that camo from the Goveriunent for ^jtnesl*rprivate these public purposes over pass to your private credit ? — No. credit. 5168. Was the account always kept in an official shape? — Yes. suppiif«. 5169. Was there any person at the Locks who had a private store of Private stons ;\t I'oods, and who sold on their own account ? — Yes. Locks. 5170. VVho was that? — Mr. Fowler, the Hudson Bay Co., Mr. Wilson, Mr. Phair and Mr. McKiiinon had stores ; those are all I recollect of just now. 5171. Is this the same Wilson who was clerk to the Government establishment? — Yes. 5172. Ho was not cariying on this business at the same time ? — Xo ; Wilson resigned lie resigned his position with the Government, and opened that store. Kiuuvtion^aila" ,„ , , , , , . , r, 1 • 1 .1 opened store. 5173. Was the Government store carried on alter he resigned i* — Ves. 5171. For how long? — Until the work was closed. He had a store ot Irs own. 5175. Is he any connection of yours? — No; none whatever. 5176. Had he any business transactions with you ? — Nothing further than I knew him for a number of years to be a good business man. He wiis in business in Orillia at one time, and it was on the strength i»imiHKcm«i»t <»r oi that I gave him the position. 5i77. VVho would be answerable for the labourers performing a proper amount f)f labour while they were under pay ?— The foremen over the oV'wo'r'k.' lilfoiviit branches of the work. There was a foreman for each branch There was a rock foreman and a timber foreman. fi)reman ? — H. ivork. Korcnian respon- sible forexei-utloii 5178. Do you remember who was the rock McLennan. 5171>. And the other? — Warren Oliver was the timber foreman. R. R. R. McLennan, rock foreman. Warren Oliver, timber forumaii. 5180. You not being there much of the ^ ae, you could not, of course, ffiorciso much supervision on that subjv-cL?— No. Of course they had tlio plans and spocitications to conform to as well as I had, Hvervthing was suppose 1 to be done under plans and specifications, and these loreineii wore to see that the men performed their duties. 5181. Who made the arrangomonls for the procuring; of meat for the nuM, and necessaries of that kind? — Anytning outside of the two iliipartnunts 1 have mentioned, these would come under Mr. Thorn p.son. 5182. And the details of the providing of necessaries, such as hay, potatoes and oats ? — That was managed by Mr. Thompson, the general I'oreman. 5183. Was Bentley under Logan, the paymaster, all the time that he Will there ?— No. 22i SUTHERLAND 940 Vort Franeea Ijoek— MnuaKrmeiit of 'worl 5184. I understood you to say that Bontloy was a clork to Loifjin?— Ho was ; but when ho had not anything to do in tho store lio kept Hi,. time of the men and assisted at the office, or at anything that was to bo done. Of course, there wore times when there was a great deal lo be done in tho store, and there wei'e times when there was veiy littl,. to do in the store, 5185. Do you remember about tho time that Wilson befanie in. 8np|iii<-ii terosted in tho store of his own? — I cannot give tho date. SometiTTioH 5186 After he became interested on his own account, do yon | with all those traders, as we called them there. If we were shoiiof tea, sugar, rice or anything of that kind, we would have to buy ihoni to the best advantage until oui- own supplies were obtained. We borrowed them sometimes. 5187. Did you take part in any transaction by which he became any property first ordei-ed for the Government ? — Yes. How certain Government f)ropfrty came nto Wilson's hands. owner of any 5188. What were those transactions ? — At first we were supplylnij ourmen— tfie Government 1 am speaUing of now — from the Govern ment store, with tobacco, boots, clothes, &c. There was a necessity for it, in the first place, becau>se there was no store or place' there where you could got those things except from the Hudson Bay Co,, at very high prices ; but after I had worked it that way for a while I found that it entailed a complication of accounts, and there wasagieat deal of dissatisfaction. The men had the idea that because the stuff belonged to the Government, they should get it for nothing, so 1 thought I would stop the whole thing, as there were traders coming in there to supply stuff. 1 made a proposition to the paymaster to i,'et rid of what little stulf we had left, to sell it out to some trader there and take other stuff for it — take such stuff as we could eat, and to give them boots, tobacco and other things in exchange, and have them valued at a fair price. Wilson was the man who took it. Mr. Thompson and Mr. Logan took an inventory of what stuff we had, and made the exchange with Wilson in that way, and got back stuff from him. After that tho men could buy their boots and tobacco utid clothes wherever they liked, as there were other stores there then. I con- sidered that was the best way for the Governmoiit. Thompson and 5189. Who wore the two men who valued the stutV?— Tliomnson Logan valued , -, ' the goods Inter- and Logan. changed between Wilson and 5191. iJid they value what was sold to Wilson as well as what wa- GovernmeDt. ^^^ f,.^,,^ Wilson ill exchange ?— Yes. 5191. Were tliere entries of these goods exchanged made in tho books ? — Yes ; it is all as clear :is a pike staff. There was a very groat deal of mibajjprehension about that, and 1 am voi-y glad that yon asked the question. 5192. Have you ever prepared any statement for the Govoniment from those books, showing this transaction among others ?— I thinlcit is likely. All our statements of account,'*, I think, were senU'ionitirao to time to the Department. Of course that would come under Mi. Logan's charge particularly. w 341 SUTHERLAND Fort Fran«eM ItOiStL— 5193. B(iL it would probably bo cortitiod by you before going to the ■«»"'*-»'*«'i»*"K- Depurtnieut ? — No; no certificate would bo neconisary unloHH psiymont was required. 51!)4. Do you rcmombor at one time you were asked to make up a stalemonL fiorn the books? — Ves; I was asked on several occasions. Do you moan of the general business ? 5r,i'). Yos; and the results of the business? — Yes. I)!!*''. When you were asked to make up that statement it is not likely ilint Logan would make it up ? — Yes. 510 1'. Was he the person asked by the Government? — No. 511)8. Did you not finally prepare u statement ol' the books and send it to the Government ? — I do not remember. 510!t. Do you not lemcinber that when Dr. Down wanted the R«f"Sf'i to k'vo •1 I 1 . • ,1 I II. books to Dr. [lOoks you said you could not give them because you had to prepai'e a Bown, bfoaus.! ,tiUen.ont for the Government ?— Yes. a^stlTtoineur'"""^ 5200. f-)id you prepare that statement ?— Yes. 5201. Did that statement show the particulars of that transaction ? —That ti-ansaction would be I'oported long before that. 520 i. That statement that you speak of having prepared would no be made by Mr. Logan only? — IJo would make it up in all probability, audi would sign it. Jl it related to stores, of course it would come under him. 5-03. Will those books show all the transactions that were done bwlkswouuuhow thu trarisactioDii which took plac under him. land show those transactions. under him? — 1 thiid< .so ; 1 have never looked at them since 5204. Where are they now? — Mr. Logan has all the books of the store. 5205. Had be books of his own as well as the Government books ? — Logan took the They were Government books. Of course when he w'jnt away fi'om bcwks wTthYiim. hero he took all his books with him. 520tl. Did he remain in the service after you did? — Y'es ; he was Logan the last about the last man on. He wab left of course as paymaster, to settle man on the work. up all the little accounts. 5207. Had you any books showing these transactions kept by James byjllr^s'suuler- Sutherland ? — Yes. .^20S. When was that ? — We always kept books. 520n. [ thought James Sutherlanu was in the employ of the^Govern- ment? — Yes; wo kept such books. 5210. Had you private honks of your own ? — No. .5211. Then any books which James Sutherland kept were Govern- ment books ? — Yes, .TaniesSutlierlaad 5212. W..a he employed at this time in any private capacity as dis- while in G \v||,,|, thing. 5214. Then tho books that .lames SuthcM-land hud cliargo of woiiM 1,^, books in which tho transactions ot Logan would apjK'ar as minor tiaiiv actions? — Yos ; tho hooks that my brothor kept would cont;iiri, in .,i| ]»n)bability, not all of Logan's work, but as far as matters suih as tiim. of men, mono}' paid to thorn, and all that sort of thing was coiitoriicii 5215. Would thoy not contain ontiios about supplies? — Yos. 5210. Would there bo anj^ portion of the businos recorded in Lojrun's books which ought not to appear in James Sutherland's books? — | nm not exactly cloai- about that just now. You see it is so long jincj, aiiil 1 have so much other business on hand, I am not sure; but, olcoui o, it would bo very easily aacortainod. 5217. What I mean is this: tho transactions of Logan wore onlj a part of tho transactions of tho whole concern ? — Yos. 5218. And thai. })i'o]wrtion of tho ti-ansactions ought to appear in iIk. same .-ihape in tho general books ? — Yos, 1 think so; and 1 tliitii< thov did. ^ 5219. So that the books in possession of James Sutherland wo'ilil really contain a record of the whole transaction of Logan as well ;h other.i ? — Yes. 52i0. Logan has pos.scssion of none of those books wliich jaiiie> Sutherland had custody of? — No. 5221. Then as to those general books that James Sutheriaiid Imil charge of, whore are they? — They are hero in Winnipeg; but copies of all of these accounts have, I presume, been filed in tho -Department. 5222. Have you tho custody of these books now, or has James Sutherland custody of them? — I suppose we both have, as we are in partnership; thoy are Loxed up soTriewhere and put away in the store. I suppose they can be found, there has been none of them lost us has been reported. 5223. Has it been reported that they had been lost ? — Yes ; it liiu been rumoured to that effect. 5224. Have you heard any other rumours about anything impro]iei' having taken place about the manageniont of the Locks ? — Yos ; I have heard a groat many rumours, but it would only be idle talk to go over them. 5225. It might holj) us if you wish to bo asked about any of them? — I dare say you have hoard more of them than 1 have. 5226. Have you hoard that Wilson sometimes go. property of the Government at a low price, or without accounting for it at ull ?— Yes; 1 have heard a great deal of improper conduct attributed to Mr, Wilson and to me. Believes rumowii 5-27. But you woro not present at the Locks all the time ?— If he coiidilet by*whicii S^^ 'i"y pi'oporty at a very low price, or without accounting tor it, he the Government would bo responsible for it. Of course I depended upon Mr. Thomosoii, ed. the local manager, to have everything properly carried out. I belie\o he did. 1 know of nothing improper. Kone of the books kept l)y James Butherland lost ai reported. diict. 343 SUTHERLAND fort ITraiKcw ljo«'(k — 5228. Ho you know, in round numltors, the nmoimt of mon»'y tlm( Kiimu.imih-.-. came till oiigli your cuHtody o!i account ol' tho Locks? — Roiilly I could [)Q[ siy now; it in u long time ago, and I liavo a largo husinusH to look atlor, ""'' *i niiuiber oi' rnadt'r.s tliat bother mo u good deal. 5221). l)o you rcmcinl)ui-, in round niimbor-^, wliolhcr the amount of hibour w:is more the lirst or second year? — No; I do not. 'il'.SO. Would the books show that coi-rcctly, as lai- as you know? — Y^.s; 1 am inclined to ihink. though, witluMit rclroliing my memory jl hiivo never looked at tho«o books since I closed that work, although I iiiii,'lil liJivo done so if 1 liked), my im|iression was that tho fii'st veai' was larger than tho second. I thitd< thci-e was a sto|)])!ige of tho ivoik at one lime, anil it strikes mo it occurred tho second year. 5:'31. As far as can be gathered from the books now at Ottawa, tho Comparisc.n !>.•- iii>t year re(iui led about «;J7,(MM) for supplies, and about «3!>,0(i0 foi- j,^y;;[',!„';';;;;;|;;|;;^ wa 't'?i— tliiit is, the supplies cost ub(nit as much as tho labour, so that mid wants. iliei'i)>l of keeping a man appearw to bo as much as he got for his |;ih)ur '!— No. r)282. The two sums are very nearly eiiual ? — But that imdudes all the plant and machinery as oxpendituie. hi'i'i. Whtit sort of plant? — Wo had steam engines, boilers, hoisting rii;s, and implements of all kinds. I dare say it represented not tho ffliolo. I do not know how mutdj the first year ; but I have no doubt it r('prcsci:ted altogether as much as you have put down there for >u|iplies $.-i7,0UU. hl',i\. Ill the second year when there was no demand for that kin- ^"I'l'""" i'''><''i"S' I ,.■ II 111 .1. I 1 i .1 /-I ^ n \XT -.1 I'd generally l)y action which would be most (avouraliie to tho Cioveinmont .'' vVus it by tender. tc'iidcr or by peisonal coinmunication with tho sellers? — By tender. Very oftou by tendei-. Generally by tender. Generally, if there was no time to tender, 1 would go round and take prices from merchants [inyholl. ■)2;i7, Wore these tenders invited by advertisements? — 'Vos; all Tmnsport u Ifco toiKk-rs and advertisements and everything was i)ut on Hie in the pi'ii'<^'ii>iti iiem of [iJepai'tnieiit. ■ 2;i8. I suppose a considerable portion of tho expenditure was for jtraiisport ? — Ves ; a very large portion was for ti'ansport. it was one jol the principal items in carrying on work in this country. „-lS*i—- 8UTHERLAND 344 I ♦ Fori Vraiiccs ftiin|>ll<'N — TrnaMi>nit ■ Nixon Included tinpplli's tVir Lock III Ills iidviTtlst<- iiU'Mlis for tt.'tidnrs for Iriiiisport for riitiMiMiiii I'liclMc Ji.nl wiiy. Relations with Nixon ('iirllici' expliilncd ft2;i!>. I)() you romombor liow you mnnii^'od thai?— WoII; tho d;,,,^^ tort would 1)0 |)i'inc'i]):illy jH-rforriiod lioro. Aro you Hjioiik-ing uf in,.,.. uiid Iransjjort now, or rail? 5240. Of luiid traiiHpoit ? — Mr. Nixon, who win purvoyor Jicio (,„, tlio Canudiuii I'acilic Ruilwiiy, invited tondoris for his truiispofi^jiuilinv iipplios weio ^ivoii tioarly t.j tlio Hamo pooplc;, and ho iiu;liiih''l ii,i||1, and look the IowohI tondei . h?A\. J)o yon think that tho HupplioH for tho Lockw wore traiispoii^.,! Iiy tho sauio contract which cariiod tho .supplies for other portions .,1 tiie I'aciHc Kailway ? — lii some ca,scB ; yoH. .')242. And do you nay that Mr. Nixon inanaood IhoHo when flm wore united? — Voh. r)L'4;j. Do you know, of your own knowledijje, by what syv<(>m In arrived at tho prices? — For iiiMtanco, 1 was at, Ottawa in the Sj.iiuj^r ,,1 till' year. 1 was leceivin^ my instructions for the summer's opoiatiniiv and in order to get supplies down cheaply tho contraci lor lr;iii>|riii should bo lot by a certain time in tho spring. Where there is u lui-.'^. qu.'inlily of supplies going together, of course it is done more cliuaplv 1 would write up to Mr. Nixon to say that I had aconHideralileaimnint of supplies. If I did not know the amount I would guoss at ii ; ;.iiit knowitig that ho would advertise every year, 1 would say : *' advcrti^'Mi much lit)!' me." If tho ap])lication happened to be too lato lie wmill advertise ior me specially. If 1 happened to be here myself, of c^mx. I would do it myself; but whoever made the lowest tender foi "■, ; , for tho Canadian Pacific Railway to Mr. Nixon generally got my wmk. 5244. Have you given tho prices actually paid for transporlatiun aiiv consideration ? — 1 do not understand you. 6245. Have you considered whether it was a fair price, or too low.ni too high at any time? — I depended more upon Mr. Nixon's ju(lj,'riii'iit than my own on that, because he had more experience; 1 piesunie he always took the lowest tender. 1 do not think the price was higlior than other people paid. 5246. I mean have y()U considered that question at any time?— Vev I know in one case (I think it was the first time I came hero) 1 woiiM not accept the tenders at all that were given, 1 thought they weio all too high, and I went on to perform the work myself; but by the time i got half through with it, the same parties who tondeiod canioM me and offered to undertake the thing for a little less, and I gtivo them the balance of the work. McKay and Allovvay tfot most of the work of tran.si)orilng Hupplius. Alloway got most of lilt' work. 5247. Who was the ])or.son who got most of tho work of transporting supplies? — 'J'ho llonourable James McKay and Alloway. 5248. Was it juetty evenly divided between them? — No; Aliuwuyj got the most of it. 1 do not know but they were in partneisliii). 524!>. You know it was said that they did share in equal proportions,! or in some way, either as j>artnership or by some other ai raiigcnionr.'j — I think they did tho first year, and that is why I objected. 5-50. Bo you moan that they were not really competing ton(lcr.s?- 1 do not think AUowaj- put in a tender at all at that time, but 1 though McKay was putting up a job on me, as it wore. My time was very limited, 1 could get but very few tenders at all, and thought .McKaj II. F. Forres 84ft SLfTHERLAND Fort VimiieeM IiO«k — u!is itiniii"'''i'>^ *i<^'itJ'' pJU'tiuf^ to bid hi;^li, iiiiil tlicii I wont in liii'iti^ *''ryi.'ii[^',*"i^,.g, rit'ii tny-'olf. Wlioti lio siiw I wiis likoiy to siiccood l»o otl'orod to liiico it (liciip^i) 'I'"' I ''"^ Hutiisfiod in I'oforonco to tluit, tlmt I got my siipplios mil (oii-iili'ialtly cheiiiu'f than : uppliofi woie lakoi out for the Monntod Police to tlio Miuno place. 5251. Wlio niiitmgcd tliut? — Capt. Chvrlto wus in I'lnirgo that yoar. 525-. l>')yon mean that iio nianagod tlio nito for transpoctution ? — Yos. 525.'!- Do you ronu-inhor tho trunsaclion ahout nil I'o ulyciMMiu'— 1 ^/ij"""f'^^^Ytoi* iliink' llioi'i) was soino letl iit'tur tho worU was (iomplotiid ? — Yos. iwiuJ. ,j25i. What was that transaction? — Tho (Jovornnient sold it to Whitc'heail. 5253. Who managed tho saU* ? — T rnanagod this sale, I thiidv. 525(1. I'o yoii I'ornoinhor uhout what prop »i'ti<;n of tiio actual coet yim recoivcd lor that? — W-ry nearly the actual cost. 5257. Including I ran. sport ? — Including transport to Lake ol tho Woods. 5258. Mr. Mowhray's name appear.s in tho accounts at Ottawa; was il puichased from him ? — Yes. 5251t. Do you know whether that sale to Whitehead was made avail- alilo to the Department in anyway? — Yom. 5260. la what shape? — De[)arlmont retained it, . think, from his estimates. 1 certified to the account and sent it down to the Depart- ment, and tlie Department collected it in .some way, I do not know how. 5261. Would you bo good enough to have that box of books .sent heie in- investigation by the Commission ? — Yes. II. R Forrest, sworn and examined : FORREST. % the Ghainnan .— ''JiVivVy- '"'' 52()2. Where do you live ?— At pi'osont at Tilford. .Maiioo«i»». 52(i.{. Where is Tilford ?— Four milos and a-half this side of dross liUke, on contract 14. 5204. Have you been employed in connection with the Canadian Piicitic Railway? — I have been employed since 1872. 52(;."). What time in that season ?— In March; T was on the Tntor- folonial Railway since 1SG8, but was iran.sforred to tho Canadian Pacific Railway in March, 1872. 52()(). In what capacity wore you first employed ? — As subordinate. 5267 You do not mean as one of the labourei's? — No; as assistant leveller, but not as one of tho assistant engineers of the party. 5268. Was that upon exploration? — 1 was assistant engineer on an Exploration froia exploratory survey running fi-om the North Thompson towards ChiK- u.'chiiuot'ia^'''"* c'otin Plains in British Columbia. Plains. V FORREST • 346 k m m Exploratory Survey — Party K t Maliood^M. Survey described. MiihooU In the Ki)Clcy Mi)un- taliis. Witness temporarily In charge nctiii); under instiue- tlons from ftlcLennau until Alitbood arrived (in .June •> I'arty thirty I'arty In all. How party \vi\^ organized. Ba.se or.sii)i|iIli's atjunoiiiii) oi <,'learwatei- und ThotnpMiii Party had two traliiN, one of six- teen mules and one of olgliteen paek boriies. By Mr. Keefer :— 6169. VVlio.se party was it? — M>-. Mahooci's. By the C/mnnan : — 5270. Please describe the tji'iniiii and coiirso of that siu-voy jn <|,(.|| a way that it can be mentioned in tlie noios ? — It is so ioni; sitico — jjx years — that I hai'dly rocoileet the points. We started I'roiri a point on the North Thompson, abcv'e its junction with the (MearvvattM-, ainl laii to the vjiliey of the BUieivwater Creek to Lake .Mahood und (.'anim. | think the western terminal point was ubont ei^ht miles west of Lii|<(; Uanim. J n connection with that survey there was a second line lun up the valley ot' the Clearwatei' to l^ake Caidm. 5271. in which you took part? — Yes. It was merely an altciaiion' The Mrst portion of the Blackwater was found impracticable and we backed out. It seems to me it was known as Bluckwater survey. 5272. At what time of the year did you commence operations?— I think it was the latter part of May, 1872. 5273. Were you in cha.ge? — No ; Mr. Mahood was in charge ; but he was absent in the Jlocky Mountains, and I was temporarily in cliari,'e, acting under instructions from Mr. McLennan. 5274. What was the si/e of your party ? — I think about thirty all told. 527'>. Can you describe the duties of the different members of the party — I metm (Kscribo them by iheir ditVeront positions ? — Mr. lioiand was running the level ; I was runiiing the transit. We had two chain men, picket men and a rod man. The remainder of the pai-ty wa.s iiiado up of a.\e men und camp packers. 5::7p!ics from thei'o ; wo also had a certain portion of them at Fort Kamloops. 527I>. IFfid 3'ou any animals in the ptirty ? — Yes, we luid twn trains: one of sixteen mules und eighteen pack horses. 5280. Whore did you first get them ? — I'hey were furnished, 1 think, at Vrcek, about Iwent, i iles from Clearwater. r284. Then fhoso animals took no part in bringing up supplies fur you ? — If 1 leeoUoct rightly, we had some six animala with us part ol 347 FORREST the time tliat wo were on the Blackwiiter f-ide ; but I roally ilo not ,e(olle<'t ttio number. I recollect that we hud veiy tew previous to tlieaiiival of Mr. AJahood. 52i5. Where did yon get those animals ? — I think they must have l,t.eiit'iii'nibhed at Fort Ivamloops. 52St). Do you not io [supplies, or saw after the getting of supplies for Mr, McLennan, .■|201, Had you a commissariat officer attache 1 to tho party ? — No ; thiiv was a depot clerk at Oloarwater. &2, Was ho one o>' your party, or was he attached loiivlly there? — Ho was !iot one of my parly, h.'Xl I am asking you whether you had a commissariat officer aiuaiied to your party ?— No ; we had not. 52m. Then, d> you mean that your fiist duty eoiinectet. R. McIaMiuan (Icpidcd on (lUiiii- tlty orsuppllt-s for piirty. VVItn(!8s plapiMl ill cliarsje at Yale. Mis duties (lid not cover arraiitit!- ments rt<<;anllug auppllus. Mllcriiio of coil II- try I'xniiilnwl about forty uilleu. Maliood loU'.fd party in .lrii<- and took .•linriji Nature of hiiim\v; exploratory wltli t raiisit iiiiii level. Maliood hiid pro- \ lousl\ passed tlircaiuli pouiiliy. wmm FORREST 348 illll Ex|iloi-a(ory Survey— pnity R t Maliontl'Ma The line survcyoii was prnctlcablo but. not I'livour- able. MiikltiK plans In offli-o ai Ottawa coniR'elod with siirvpy. Ci»rrc*it Pnr(y« 1873. In IS?;! onu'atjod in Ki.it vf.v from NiplKon Klvcr to Sturgeon Lake. 5305. What became of the uiiimalH ut tlio end of the work?— I liini). the unimalis were iseiit to Ksimloops ; I do not recollect positively. ixiOH. W supplioH t'linii^hed in a satisfactory manner? — Yis; ^e had nothing to complain of, 5307. Were (here any supplies over at the end of the season?,! think there wei-o, because there were other partioH operating m the Kocky Mountains who were also furnished from that dejjot. 5308. Do 3'oii know what became, at the end of that season's opoiaiioiis of the supplies which you took with you? — 1 do not. if I rocolic^t rightly we had no surplus supplies, because they were rathei short, when we diew towards the western terminus of the survey. 5309. What was the result of the operation? Did you discover a favourable line? -The line was practicable, but not favourabk-. 5310. Did you make up any rei)orts connected with it? — I did tidi. 5311. Would that be the duty i^f your supeiior olHcer? — Yes. 5312. Did you remain in the employment of the Government utier November? — I have been in the employ of the (lovernment since. 5313. What did you do after November? — I remained in the ofliceat V^ictoria until January, when we returned to Ottawa, and wore in Ottawa until the following June, when we went on an explorntorvor trial survey south of Lake Nipigon. 5314. Did you assist in making out the jdans connected with this first survey while you were in Ottawa ? — I was engaged all winter niidving out plans of that survey, but they wore burned before comple- tion. 5315. Then you had not completed them before you went to ihe Nipissitig district ? — No, they were never completed; the books aiij everything appertaining to that survey wei-e burned. 5310. Did you take tliom down between 1872 and 1873 ?— Yes. f)3l7. Did you comjdete them before you started out on a new lii|)'? — They were vei'y nearly completed before the building took lire, and they were destroyed. 5318. After vour season's work, would it be your duty, diuiiii,' the ensuing wiiuer, to make up your plans in the office? — Yes. 531!). 1 am asking whether you di. How long did you remain on that sui'Vey ? — We completed ihat >iu'vcy about the \7i{\\ of the following June. ')'.'¥K Did you rc'inain tlu'ie over the winter? — 1 was engaged on other trial linos during the winter. .VIH. Did you begin tliat wlieii you left this in Jnnuary 1875? — Yo«; a lew diiys after. I ran a line to Shoal Lake, under instructions tiijiu Mr. (':irre — from Shoal Lake to lied River. Our initial ixtint was Slioal Lake, and we lan towards Red Rivei-. It is tho Shoal Lake wo--t of Red iiiver. ■iiVl. Wh.'it time o| tlu^ year did you begin that survey? — Wo began italiDut the middle of January, 1875, and (!oinpleted it in the following Cui-re's Party. System of supply. Survey onds iu November. Engai^cd making planH. Pallway l.oca- Mon— Coutract No. 15. Tills work over on I'lth .June. I'"iii;iiij('il (liirliii; winter on other trial locnIloiiM. Ran (I llru' to siioiil litiki' anil from .Slioal liUku to Winnipeg. IlliiiitJi. FORREST 350 tlOlk— Coiitrnci No. 1 5. Witness in charirc of .survey when Carre not i)rt'HeMt. Character of country. Length of survey from Shoal Lake forty -tlve miles. Country about one-half swamp. Aliou* half tit lor aKrlciiltural purposeH. Instnictod hy I'arro to run a triuk fmm White 5343. Mr. Carre being Htill your on veiy swampy, the rest was dry poplar ridges. 5349. W^as it good Jigricultural land, any part of it? — Vervlml,. if any. 5350. About what wtis the length of that survey, from .Shoal I.ui^e eastward? — About forty-five miles. 5351. Do yo" know if this was about whore the telegraph lino \v:i-.' — The telegraph lino wa.s run previous to the survey, we liin on the telegraph lino; it was to straighten a line that was previon.sly lun. 5352. J)o you remember about what proportion of the couiiiiy was swamp? —I do not know ; it was in the winter, and there wa- consider able quantities of snow on the ground; but I should say it was ono-liult swamp. 5353. Did you not put down pegs to mark your centre line?— Yrs, 5J54. Could you not tell from that, what kind of country it \va>, M)li>l earth or swamp?— Tlif3 p(3gs were only put down temporjirijy. dulv put in in the winter tind over the bogs, 5S55. You siiy about one-half would be swamn? — I think aboiil limi proportion. 5.)5h'. WouUl all the rest bo light sf)il, or could you not toli ?— I (onM not tell, on account of the (|tiantity < f snow on the ground, fhc liinlicr was gorieriilly poplar. 5^57. What size ?—(iuile small. 5358. Are you able to form viny opinion in winter of the iviitmo ot tho soil over which you pass, from either the trees or any oilier iiwlicu- fion ? — it is veiy difhcult to do so. Of course wo can foiin an idea whether the land is dry, to a certain extent, or whether it is ^'ravel or slit!' clay ; but it is very ditlk-ult to form iinjtliing likt' a convct opinion as to the nature of the soil. 5351). Did you think that port ion of the country V7as one likely U; be settleti by farnioi- for agriciiilurtil purposes ? — A portion of it. 53C0. About what pi'oportion of it ? — I think aiiout half of the cdiui- try might possiltly bo selthd, but I fancy not (or sometime to come. 53(51. About what time of the year did you end that survey ?~Tlie second week in February, 1875. 5302. And then wiiere did you go ?— I then received further instiMO tion from Mr. Curro to make n track survey from Whitofish Hay, of the 351 FORREST MailWII}- laP«-H- tlou— - , ^ Couti-Ht'l .\o. IS, I, ,1^0 of iho Woods, towards otui'goon I^juIh, an arm of Kuiiiy Lake, pisii uay lo i uke ^vurking ul)Out Bouth-oast. • <>f the wooiIh'. 53G3. I^itJ y "I take charge of that pai-ty ? — 1 was in charii;o of the rally iKMHoriiiUy acting under instructionH Irom Mr. Can-e. 5361. Wluit was the ^izo of your party ? — About tiiii-ty six all told. ai>mii tC?rty-.six In all. 5365. Where was the base of your supplies ? — North-West Angle. 5366. Did you take any part in the ari';iii;.'onient for supplies for ,|,;il work? — No; the supplies were to be at North- West Anglo waiting f<»i' "10 wlicn 1 arrived there. 5367. Wore they there? — Some; a large jiroportion had not yet arnvetl. 536H. How long were you occupied in that woi'k ? — 1 completed (ho rompioitHi work w,',i'k on the 26th of March, and i-oturnod to Winnipeg on the Gth of <^" -'iH' March. A|)ril. 5j61t. ]li»iifs. ,;imp witli. to move our supplies from North-West Angle totiie head of Whitfti'^li Hay, the contractors having failed to deliver them. 5370. Who wore the contractors? — I think it was Mr. Stayner. Mr. NiPiraan McLeod had been left in charge by Mr. Carre to see after thuse supplier*. 5 71. Was the work more expensive on account of having to use the .l(i(f trains in the way you describe ? — But very little more expensive. We wore only one month running seventy miles. 5372. Then there was no serious delay or loss in consequence of the No serious delay. Mi|i|iiies not having been forwarded ? — Nothing sorious. Of eour.se we wi'ii' on hhort allowance and might have got through a week sooner, liiit there was no serious delay. .•)373. Tliei! you reached Winnipeg about April? — The (ilh of April. .■|374. What did you do then ? — I remained in Winnipeg until the Couirnct .\o. ii. allowing .June making out the plans of the track sui-vey. .vir. Thompson \va>i then a|)poiiited in charge of contract It, and instructed me to into the lirst fifty miles of it in the month of June. 5375. The first fifty tniles in which direction ? — Kast from Red ItlVtT. 5376. Did j'ou take chai'go of the party to do that ?— I was in charge III the party. 5377. Did you say under Mr. Thompson? — Acting under instruc t lions from .Mr. Thompson. 5378. Who was Mr. Thompson ? — lie was the engineer appointed to liiko charge of contract 14. 5:',7!t. Is that before there was a contract or after ? — Tiiere was a line run liy Mr. Brunei, and the contractors were working on that lino. WSO. That is, the piece of the line which was nearest to lied River? Made tinai -Yts ; 1 nuM'v'ly made a final location of the lino already lun. location. 5381. Who had made the previous survey ? — Mr. Brunei, if 1 mistake I Hot. FORREST 352 ■allway I tlon— Contract No. 14. Line marked by witneaa flually adopted. Finally located the line already run. F'urnlNhed data by which other persoDH could pnlculatf' qiiiin- tllleis. 51^82. Of which you afterwards made the final location ? — Which I afterwards made the final location of, with tho exception ')f five milu., from Rod Hiver east. That portion was new lino. 5383. Do you mean, that that had not hoen previously locatofl hyJIr. Brunei? — It had not been previously located by Mi*. Biuiicl. ),[y instructions were to start from a certtiin lot running parallel with ttiV l)arish liiii. \intil I intersected with Mr. Brunei's line, 53'^4. Then did 3'ou locate up to Red River ? — We comtii iiced m Red River, or vvithin half a mile of Red River, an' located oast. 53-5. What was the eastern terminus of your work ? — For that season it was at station 26 IG. By Ml. Keefer : — 5386. Is that on section 14'i' — Yes. By the Chairman : — 5387. How long were you on that work ? — Until about the middle of July. 5388. That was July, 1876?— July of 1S75. 5389. Was that lino, as located by you, finally adopted ? — Yes. 5390. Did you work it out on the ground? — I staked it out every 100 feet. 5391. The centre line? -The centre line. 5392. Did you cross-section it ? — Cross-sections were taken every 500 foet through the swamps and level portions, more fro(iuontly oil rougher grountl ; reference stakes were also put in. 5393. Did I understand that you were engineer in charge of thai work, or were you assistant to Mr. Thompson, who was engineer in charge ? — I was assistant of Mr. Thompson, but was in charge of the party U)C!iting. The terminal points were fixed, and I merely located finally the line already run. 4394. Did you ascertain tho data upon that work from which to take out the (luantities? — I did not. IJofore the com))lotion ot tlii^ whole ot the distimce the books were sent in to tho office in Winnipeg. 5395. Had you not ascertained the data then from which some pei'smi else coidd make the calculations ? — (."'ertainly ; wo liin a line of levels over the works, and also took soundings of the swamps. 5396. Did I iinderstatul you to say thtit your work incliuK'i ibeei taining these particulars which would furnish other persons with tlir means of ascertaining the quantities? — Yes. 5397. And were these particdars contained in books ?-Ye-^; they woi'C contaiiied in l)Oi)ks. and tlie_y wore forwardoil to Winnipti^^—lhey were foi'warded to Mr. Thompson in Winnipeg. 5398. Aftei- thill, had you any connection vvith tho tit'ty miles?— I had, at a later date. 5399. Do you know who look out the (luanlities of t!ie work you bad done ? — I do not. 5400. You were not responsible for that part of it? — Not at all. ties were asi >f 353 FORREST Mail way liovmrn lloii— 5101. What is tlui practii^e on that subjoct? Do the assistantti help to *^"'»«'»«'« xo,i«. •ikiilalc the ([uaiititios, or does the engineer in charge take tlie respon- sibility' — Tlie engineer in charge takes the responsibility, but the issi-^tants, of courae, help under lus instructions. 5402. In this case ho did not have your assistance in making out the ta''ulations ? — Not my assistance. r)403. Are you aware whether the quantities, as made up from your data, liave turned out to be correct when the work was executed? — [ am not aware whether any quantities were made up from the data turnished by myself. ,")40-i. Are you aware that the contract lias been let upon that lino? -Yes. ;')403. And that the estimated quantities were furni.shed to the Estimated cuiau- londeiors ?— The estimated quantities were not furnished from the data upfnimdat"*" jiirnishod by myself; they had been made up the year previousl}' on furnished by ?omo jirojoctcd line, if I understood it correctly. ^* '"^^''' 540(1. Did you find that a projected line had been run over the same I' ground and staked out upon the ground ? — No. 5407. How could they got the quantities on the projected line, with- TiiinUs timt m ,nit having it staked out? — [ presume that they used the data acquired ™urs?h.'y us»h?^''" on I ho trial line of 1874. I was not aware that a projected line had the data a^71, ;)4ll. Was tho trial line ot 1874 marked by stakes? — les. marked i>y " stakes. 5412. Who did it? — T was transit man on that work. 5413. Who was engineer ? — Mr. Carre. By Mr. Keefer : — 5414. As transit man, you put down tho pegs ? — Yes. Bij the Chairman : — 5415. Did you in your evidence describe tho work which you did under Mr. Carro as part of 14 ? — 1 think so. 541(?. Was it not upon part of 15 ? — That was run the same winter at the same time; there was no distinction then between 14 and 15; and we ran a line through to near Brokenhead River. 5417. Do you know tho namo of the station on the railway which is Bon Sejour i ho ^i-,iLiT». or«ci- "^ .station nearint nearest Brokenhead Kivor r — Bon oejour. Brokeuhead 5418. Then that was the furthest point west at which any previouBly projected line had beon run with sunioieut data to take out (luantities ? 23 * ' ■ FORREST 354 BalitvH^ Loca- tion— Contract No. 14. 1 " • ins aliiiiit. the inldillc uf'.liiniiiiry, IsT'i. Trial Niirveyi*— P<-llll>> ii|-MIICll« 4'/4>ntra«-l 5 A- Jristi tK'tfd to run lini- t'mm Selkirk to VViiiiiiin.'Lr. See:>un. WiliH'ss incliai'L of ptirl.v but aclinii mulpr lii- strnctlons Croin Aowaii. BriMifl ran liin wliicli was :idi)|)t)'(I. ]Ukiliva.v t'uH- Hlriii-tioii— Coiitrftit No. 14. Next u-ork from that ?— 1 do not. 5422. Do you .say that, previously, the prO|0C'tcd lino had boon made with Kutticient accuracy to furnish tho data for quantities? — Tlio trial line had boon made with sutticiont accuracy to furnish approximate quantities. 542;{. What time of fho year did you end the woi'k ? — Al»out tii, middle of January, 1875. 5424. Did you remain in the cmphjy of the Crovoriiinent y—Vos. 5425. What (lid you do after this final location of .section U?— In Au;!^ust, 1S7(», 1 received instructions from Mr. iiowan to run a trial line from Selkirk to Winnipeg, for the Pembina Branch, on bothsidesot IJoil liivcr. 54:^0. Wei'o you the enj^ineer in charge of that? — I was in cliargo o! a pai'ly on the gi-ound, but acting under instructions from Mr. liowaii, 5427. What was the size of your party ? — Thei)ai'ty was a very ' (luantities might have been taken out. 5435. Who i-an the lino which was finally loi^atod ? — I think it \va- Mr. Bruuol. 5436. What was your noxt work? — I think my next work was on construction on section 4, contract 14. 54.i7. Was the whole work divided into more than four soctioiwi'— It was divided into six sections. 5438. Was there an assistant engineer in charge for each section'— There was an assistant for each section. 355 FORREST vHy Cm Dtriictioii — <'oiitrnct No« 14. ')0. CiUi yoii doscribo tlio locality of your section ? — It was closo )tbe iviiitcinouth Eiver. 1440. Kii'"*^ <^'' woat? — Tliroo miles west and about two miioH cast. :,(4l. Wlint was youi- duty as to that section ?-T() lay out woi-k tor ^.,,„p^^,^ duty to hMinlnntoi'S. and superintend the work on the part of the (rovei'n- lay .1 i ii Fi'liiuiiry, ISTti, |J:iiui!iry or rebruaiy I ran a line Irom station J')«>0, south ot tiie ijiti im.' imm a kiact, to about station 2075 on Mr. Carre's south line, contract 15. suu i',',",' "(''"'.'■oi,*.'* \i\yi. About what was the length of that line? — Foi-tysix or forty- ""'' ' '" ivi'ii laiios. j.i45o. Woidd that strike the ])re.sent located line oast of lied Paver? wiiiiM strike it oast of Shelley. LiW. How far east of Shelley ? — Probably two miles. [51'm. Was that a trial location, or merely an exploration ? — It was a ■ed line, :md 1 think the}' ran in a curve so that it might answer for llrial location. 545fi, What sort of country diti you pass through? — The swamps country sw.iinpy ttiveiy btvd, and were very unfavourable as compared with those on arcomi'mrert with [present located line. " that on.rpsoi.i ' locateit lino. |5]Di. liow long were you occupied in that work ? — Until some time ii ami i."-.. iFebniary. On completing that line I received further inptructions instnuted to rim )iiin a lino from five and a-half miles west of our intersection with anda-h'aniiiUM (Scmth line. we»tolinlcrs.-r till' Julius •Mu.sKt'K. Causes leailiDg to Kreal length ol (lltclieis. On last trial loca- tion aufficlent data obtained to <-alculate •iiuin- titlC8. Nearly level. 5450. I iiiidorwlaiul yon huvo doHCiihed your eastern tenniiiiis on tfif now \voiI< ? — Yes. 54(10. Wliore did it go?— The vveHtorn torrainuH waw at station 9iifl some tliicc miles west of Bcokenhead Rivor, on the present hjciUeii line of section 14. •.'i4t!l. What sort of a country did yon ptiss over to do tliai \voik:'_ The eastoi'ii Iialf was i-athor favourable— certainly as fuv(;nrablr as ((jn. tract 14. The western liulf was run by Mi-. Armstroni,'; 1 was n,: over it. 5462. Had Mr. Armstrong been employed before that upon tin; con struction work of 14? — Yes. 5463. You say the eastern portion of that line would l)e ah easily made, at all events, us the same distance on 14? — Yes; such was mv impi-ession. 5464. In looking after tiie woi-ks done on 14, would it be youi'diuv to take any part in deferences between the contractor and the Goveiii- nieiit engineer as to the method of doing the work, or the i|iiantitie«, or would that lie left to your superior otticer? — That would be Icfi tu my superior otticei'. 5465. Did the section over which you had charge include the Jiiliib MusU'cg? — Not section 4; but I was in June, 187*7, given chai-go oi section .'J, which included the Julius Muskeg. 5460. AVas there more of the Julius Muskeg upon the line whicli u> j aciiially adopted than on the last !ine that you ran? — The lai^i liik 1 laii there was none of the Julius Muskeg on it. "We oscapod the muskeg wholly. .>167. What length of the Julius Muskeg wason the a(Io])led liiu .'-I Tlie ojjcn muskeg was about 3,000 feet in length, I think. 5468. Do you know anything of the ditch which was run thi'(jii,'!i| that muskeg locality ? They say that it was some four or tive milisl long aud outside^ the railway limit? — It would be between foui- five miles long. 5469. What length of the muskeg do you say was on the line?-! Tlio open muskeg, 1 think, was about thirty chains, or 3,000 foet. 5170. What was it that occasioned the four or five miles of aditrh?! — 1 presume it was to carry oft" the water of the muskeg. 5471. Did you consider that it was necessary to make it so long! "Was there no escape for the water by a shorter way than that'M think not. I know of no escape myself. There was a creek at station! 2068, and the ditch was run to that station. 5472. Is the absence of this muskeg upon your last trial line oiiei the reasons why you think it was quite as favourable as the one fuloiitedl — Yes. 5473. Did you ascertain sufficient data upon this last trial locutio from which to tiscertain the quantities ? — Yes; wo ran levels ovei- it anq took soundings. 5474. But not cross-sections ? — Not cross-soctiona. 5475. Was it tolerably level ?— Very nearly so. The greater portia of it was quite 80. 5481). Your I 357 FORREST 547(!. Quit*' 'i >isiant eiM'ineer alter the line was run. 54S4. Alter tho provious location of tho line? — No; alter the final Ideation. 548,'). That was after your work was done that you arc now dosorih- ih;:?— Vos. ,')486. Were the quantities taken out from this wurk that you arc now (imperilling ? — No. .■|4S7. When woi'c thoy taken out ? — Thoy wore taken out in h'^r.'t, 1 believe, from noitio piojeeted lino ; but I merely sp(>!ik from hearsay. .■)4S8. Did (his lino, as finally- located in l.*<7n by yoii, dill'er IVotn the trial line pi'es iously hicatod? — I know n-tlhingof lln^ ]»rojectod line, li ditlerod very little fVtMn the trial line of 1874. I followotl the general (imi'so of the trial line, with one or two oxeej)tioiis. .5480. Your linal location was tho one actually adopted ? — Yes. 54'.I0 What was your next work after that? — 1 think 1 took (diargo lof snb.scolion 4 on construction. il'Jl. That was returning to tho position whicli you had formerly joceiiijied? — Yes. 54112. How long did you remain in that capacity ?• -Until October, .5411'. And fchon what did you do? — I was then transferred to sul)- hfciion (i, with insti-nctions to i-evise tho last mile and adialf of tho Loiilract— that is, I ho most easterly milo and a-halt of contract 14. 5404. Did yon revise it? — 1 did. 549.5. Did you revise the grade as well as tho location of the line ? — 111' 1 recollect rightly no grade had been decided upon on that end, jpending tho final adoption of a grade on contract 15 at Cross Lake. 5490". That would govern the eastern end of 14 ? — Yes. 5407. Had tho western end of 15 been tinally revised, as to location, hlthe time that you tinally rovi.sed tho eastern ond of 14? — Yes. Rnlltvn.v liOcn* llon- rniitrn<<* Noa. I I Niul lA. rouiiHt't No. \i, Iti.slriK'tcd III Miiri'li. IsTii, lo aiiiilly looalr jiurtinii of (ici'lloii 1 1. IJiiinilltics not t:iUi'li (lilt rrnni the \vi)rl{ vrn tlila tliinl locatinn. FliiitI lin.Mliabred \ I'l'v lltt Ic from trial lint! i>r l.STl. KiiiUvn.v <'on« sii'iM'tion — CoiiirHci No. 1ft. I{('lUltlC(l to lltK luivHiiis wiirli oa sub-st'dlon I. Octolior, ISTT. trunKforrccl to hiib-seotlon ti. Rovlsod mf)Ht easlt^rly mile and !i-liair(>r(M>ntraut 14. FORREST 358 •triictlon-— Ooiitrnvt No, 14. Cnnlrnetoi'** I'lHllllf*. At one Htation es- timate or QIIHtltl- tles for Hlirliikugc iiiul Hubsldcnce 29,(10(1 yai lis allciw- iriK liiporci'iit. for HhrlnkaKc Actual quaiitlty put 111 mi rii.ooo yards. Tills particular Jill between two ruck outtlngN. 64!>8. So iliat you could nuceituiii wiili precision tlio locality of line? — Yen. 54iM). And you did that /—And I did ho. 5500. Ilavoyou luid the prohttbloqiiantitieH to tiniwh thot^nHtcrnotiJofl 14 under your conMidoration at all ? — I have, as far as CroHH f/aki'-nj.. Hoction. Section ti e.xtondod to ('roisH Lake, but did not oinhraee d ,^! fiake. 5501. Did not section 6 conio to the on»i of contract U? — Vos. 5502. I am upoakin^ of that portion ol" 14 which wan at the easiimi end. Voii are aware tliat there hati been u ^roat deal of diHciissi,, about the tilling of CroHs Lake and the large quantities roqiiirai iiil make the embankments; 1 am asking whether you have ;j;ive[i ihJ quantity of tilling in that embankment any consideration ? — 1 huvethJ approximate quantities of the material in the several tillings. 550;-{. Did you make these approximate quantities on tiio dulu \\\t\ you obtained at the final revision of the line? — Yea. 5504. Could you produce particulars of thai estimate of tlio qnati- titles? — Certainly; 1 have a memorandum of them. 5505. Do you know the particular tills upon which Mr, Sifton nofl claims an amount from the (iovernmciit, because VVhitohoud tlitl it;iu| lower rate than Mr. Sifton had contracted for? — Yes. 5r)0>j. As to those particular tills, let mo see your rstiinuto of tliJ quantities ?— One would bo at station 8980. The calculated '[iiantitr.l adding 10 per cent, wn^, in round tiguros, 2!»,0U0 yards. 5507. Js that 10 per cent, for shrinkage? — Ten per cent. k\ shrinkage and siib.sidonce. The whole (juantity put in tho till wa 51,»)00yards. 5508. Do you mean that 20,000 yards was what you cstimiUed, at liitj time of your fioal revision, to be tho probable quantity iwiuirel?- Yes ; 51, uOO yards was tho actual quantity put into tho till. 5509. How do you account for tho difference between 29,(100 anil 51,000 yards ? — From the sliding of the material in the bank, id Heomed to sink down and i-ai.se up a swampy bottom towards the hikJ to tho distance of over 400 foot. 5510. Do 3^ou moan that the excess in the quantity has disuppearcq below the surface ? — Yes, disappeared completely below tho surface raising up the swamp in some places to the height of twelve foetalwvd its level. 5511. Is this j)iirticular fill in the lake? — No; it is not far uon it. It is botwoen two rock cuttings. The lake is about half a mild from the north side. 5512. Is any pai-t of this filling over water ? — No. 5513 In it in muskeg or swamp ? — It is in sideling ground, the ginning of tho j)oint of swamp that enters between two cuttings. 5514. Tho embankment was made through this portion of th swamp ? — Yes. 5515. Is your explanation of it that the earth as put in has spna out and raised the surface of the surrounding swamp ? — Hay dispM 359 FORREST the liglitor nmtoriul ami riiisod tin* surfttco of llio Mwanip In conHoquencii of' it. 551<). Were rotk prott'(ition walls put in this tilling? — No. 5517. Tho earth waw just (Jumped into the Hwninp? — Yoh. 5518. Couki you distinguiHh, in your original estimato, hotwei'D tho quantity which yon OHtinoatod above tho original Hurl'ace and bolow the original surtiaco? — It would ho lather difficult to do ho, if I undorn- land your question. Tho whole estiraato was above tho surface, because it wat« thought that it wan solid ground. 5519. You tho'ight it would bo solid enough to support the embank- ment ?— Yes. 5520. But instead ol" that you found that it was not solid /• — Tho Hoiith side was sufficiently solid. 5521. Do you know now how much of tho work executed — 1 mean the quantity put in tho work oxeruted — is above tho surface? — I <'ould easily tind out, but I could not toll you offhand. 5r)22. Is the height of the embankment as executed tlie name height which you used as the basis of your calculation ? — Tho height is the same, but the width is somewhat greater as the top and bottoni moved slightly, HO that this 2t),000 yards would have to bo increased by a few thousand yards to cover the amount above the surlaco. 5523. And all ovei- that slightly increa.sed amount is duo to tho in- wiffiricncy of tho Ibundation that has disappeared there? — Yes. .i524. Then tho nature of the foundation would account for nearly '.'2,000 yards ?--Ye8; 21,(j00 is what I make tho excess over tho esliinatod quantities to be. .5525. Do you mean that it is due to the weakness of the foundation : thai it disappeared as it wont in? — Precisely. 5rj2i;. What is the next till ?— The next till is at station 4010. 5527. What was your estimate? — The estimate, with 10 pei- cent* added, was 114,400 yards. 5528. What was the character of tho locality there ?— A water utietcli, crossing a bay of Cross Lake. .j529. Were rojk protection walls put in ? — No. 5530. Were there not rook protection walls to all oartlj embankments over water stretches ?— Not on contract 14. Riillwny <'niia ■tr>irtlou- coiitrRcl No. 14. tlon wtiU' put in tliNtllllM>;. Nature of roniida'* tloii would iK'comit forLM,flOO yiirds oitcos'.- over estlmat*;. Fill atatation^OlO Water sirotfli t-roBHtiiK a hay CroHs Lake. No I'Ock (. Ott'rv tlou waHs. Of 5531. What was the foundation actually executed over that water ciiaraoter or >tietch?— At first there was no foundation; tho earth was simply '"•"'"'•'it"*" lumped in. The bottom seemed to bo gravel and blue clay, as far as we could lest it with tho sounding rod. As the bank progressed it began to spread. Tho earth was then levelled by the contractoi's, and a mattrasB or platform of timber built under it to hold it together. 5532. To act as a stay as well as a support for the future suporstruc- lure?— Yes. 5533. Was it something like a corduroy preparation for a roa»l? — Somewhat similar, except that the timber was crossed. FORREST SCO «t Ntriintloii— Coiitrntit Not 11. AlM.ill ir.i,H">' >Hrpears to be somewhere about Gl.OOO yaids nunc tlmi. you estimated it ori/^iiuilly ? — Yes. 5531t. How do you account ior that excess of quantities '.' — IVom tho weakness of the loundntion ; the earth has moved away. The ori^'inai earth has appai-entl}' moved away into the lake. On both sides of iLc bank lliure i^ quite a lar^^e (piantity of earth that has lisen to a cuii>i. dernble level above the wntei. The disturbance, 1 darj say, e.\ioini> 400 or 500 feet on the lake side. 5540. So that the earth that wis put in there has really male tin lake moi'c shiillow on both sides ot the embankment than it w^^ foi-merly — has lielj)ed to till it up to a certain extent? — Vo-- ; Ui acit: widorablo extent. 5541. Was that the cause of the loss of a considerable (piatititv n: earth tiiai was intended for the einbatd\m«'nt ? — Ye.«, 5542. So that the whole ba^e of tlio embankment is C(in>idoral)lv wider tluni it was originally intended ? — Yes ; three times more. 5543. Does that s)M-ea< ; tl\o lioiiiig I'lold oii^ht to have boon useil. ,'>,')5(). D<) you know why propor borinj,' tools wore not used? — I d( not. '^iH' I'eason is, 1 bolievo, they wore not in our possossioii. f)')')!. Whoso duty would it be to tin ; we wero simplied with these test in<^- rods merely, rind had no idea at the time tliat iln' botlnm was as weak as it proved to bo. .■)."i.').'. That is not exactly tho point I am askin irive 3'ou the prol)able ert'ect ol' an embankment oi" that height mill wii^lil? — 1 think tiiey were not. 55')(i. Who is 10 blame fo;- that? — Tho engineer in charge of the con- tract i-' ilie party i'0«pcnsibln lor tho due perlbrinance ol" the wi>rk on the niutiact by his assistants. 'i')')'. Did you tell him your opinion upon that subject at all or had yuii (■un>idcied the matter and ai'rivcd at, any opinion on th" ^-ubject ? —All tlic soundings 'V'"'e mai-ked, underlined, or dotted in on the pi'o- liie nvAvr what ••■ i; '1 the original sui'facc, and then the cngineei's I'diild inlgc lor themselves i'es[)ecting the bottom. '(SrjS. Vou a tho pei'son who superintended tho use of those instiii- iiioiii^. in making the soundings? — Yes. 55.')!'. Did it oc^ur to you at tlie lime that Ihey were not sulHcient to |iiovc whuthor the foundation was sti'ong enough to bear the weiglil tliat wmild 1)0 put upon it ? — Mot at the time. ')")(in. Then you did not ask for larger tools? — No. "lotil. Von iisod Iho ones that luul been provided, and saiil noihing liioi'c about it ? — Yes ;■)^)ll:^ Whac was the height of that embankment? — Fifty feet of an ;ivei'age. B>/ .!//•. KcA'fcr :~~ 556,'). Above tho water'/ — .Vnt above tho water, but above tlio I'OttOlU. Bij the Chairman : — 5564. What is tho next till?— Tho next fill is at Cross Lake. Sot!."). What is your estimated i]u:r.itity ? — 1 have boon ordy in charge '•ftlmt portion of the work within the last, three nionlhs. I'he work was well advanced when I was placed in charge of it, and J. believe tho iimmtity estimated at tho time was, in round figures, 180,000 yartls. 5516. This was a i^art of tho lino which you finally vevi.seH ?—Xo ; '.his is a portion of contract 1&. RAiUvny Coi» • M I mot inn - ContriK-l Nil. I !< > No l)ortn_' tooh Wlio is n.|iiiii- sit)li' iDi- liiiliirc I «i li'.irn true rhar- ncli r (>r Ijutto!!!. Wit M''.«'- \\ llO NUpi'l-Oltl'IKlcd work illcl mil iisk lor liU'uc'i' tools. ('OMtrH<'l \o. !.'>, Next till ; Cross Lilltt'. Work we!) iid. vniic.tl wild) wit IK'.SS Wil.-. plnot'd hi cliarKP ; (luanltty cstltiiiil- (•(1 at tliat lime, l.SO.iKK) .var(l.'<. •J I ' # FORREST Kall^vRy Con- Ntrnftioii. 4'oiilracl tkn. 14. ruutriici Ku. 15. Cross I^ike. One Dlllif wiitiT stretches over wlileli orlKiniil iQfeiilloi) was to put trestle worK. KedsoiiK why orininsil eHlimiite not sutlieieiit. I'rotertloii walls iMovMil Into hike. E.'irtli (li'opjietl hetweeii i)rotee- Mon Willis had efl'eei of raising •.)rli;iiial sur.'nce oijt.side of the protect ion wnlls. HorlDK IooIh were used, t)ut only alter contract was let and eni- iiankinent »)ef{uu (o sink. 55«j7. I have been spoakitig of tho tills on 14 ; «lid you only ostimai, two fills in your roviKod location of 14? — I estimated other tills, bmtL quantity put in has not called for any special remarks. 5^.68. Now tliat you have gone to section 15, J will ask you al»iu this: you say the quantity was estimated to bo 180,000 yards?— -Ye, 65(59. That was over the water stretch ? — Yes. 5570. Had it regular protection walls? — Yes. 5571. What amount of work has been executed? — They aro >ii|| (lumping material from the borrow-pit into the lake; but J shoulj u.,ii. mate that at present we have put in 215,000 yards. 5572. Have you any estimate as to the quantity which will yet have to be put in to complete it ? — No ; but this is very nearly sufficient. They aro now dressing otl' tho bank so that u small quantity more or loss.wil! be sufficient. 5573. This is one of the water stretches over wliich it was ori. But tho bay had not any protection walls? — No. 5577. That has spread from the inside of the protection walis?--Yo> it spread moving the protection walls with it. 5578. The movement of the earth carried the walls further away into the water? — Yes. 557!*. Has the bottom of the lake boon d rbed also oiitsitU: thej)!!)- toclion walls ? — Yes ; to a distance of 300 or 400 feet ; possibly more. 5580. Has the depth been diminished?— The earth has been raised above tho water pi-obably ton feet for the greater jiart of tho (iistaneo, 55S1. That would be outside the protection walls? — Yes. 5582. So that tho earth Avhich was dropped in between tho protection walls has hud tho effect of raising tlie original surface outside tho pro- tection walls? — Yes. 5583. Then it must have sunk bolow tho original surface betwoeii tho protection walls, and moved side wa3'-s ? — Ves; in one or two phiee* it has also broken the protection walls, and in one place raised u portion ofonoof the walls and worked its way underneath the stone. 5584. You liad not charge of that work, so as to say whether proper soundings were made or not ? — No ; I had not charge at the time, but I know that borings were made. 5585. Similar to those you have described ? — No; boring tools were used. 558G. When the contract was let? — No; after the work in the embankment in tho bay began to sink. These tools had boeu obtained 303 FORREST ftiun on contraot. V). Rr. 'viin wIliii'Hs's superior officer. ■Imctlon— alter the churactor of the foundation had beon nscortainod U> be iiisutti- ^ i4"Hn*i*i5f "*' cicnt. 5587. As to this portion of it, you say you do not know whether any nielimiiiary examination was made ? You are not ronponsiblo for any fsuminulion haviufr taken place? — No; 1 am not responwible for any (■xaminution. 5588. You took no part in it ? — No. 5589. What did you do next after this ?--I am still on ihis work on witnesB still on .. ,,, <; work of section H, section U. contriM't II, and 5590. Part of contract 14 ? — Yes: and I have also charge of J r)gf)lf iy,g,*^irH'uivt end 1)1' 14 was taken over by Mr. Whitehead from Messrs. Sit'ton, W'lircl & Co. ? — 1 may say 1 do not. That is, I have received no oflicial intimation whatever. 5591». Were you ])roscnt at any part of the a'Tangement youi-self beuvoeii the parties? — No; I was not. I merely heard tlie thing ciisuiilly. 5G00. Did you ever talk over the matter with Mr. Sifton, Mr. Ward, or Mr. Farwell ? — No; not to my recollection. \ have not. 1 am certain 1 have not. 5G01. Have you ever examined the c()Vintry in the immediate neigh- iiotirhood of this deej) filling, with a view of ascertaining whether a ilesiiuble change in tlie lino had escaped them, and of obtaining one wiiicli was feasible and better, without destroying the general direction of the line? — I ran a trial line immediately after revising the last mile Jiiid u-half of contract 14. I ran a trial line south for a shoit (listance, but the terminal point was the same. 5(!02. Which was that ? — The crossing of Cross Lake, it was a ^ho^t line, about three and a-half miles long. 5603. That would be on the east end of 14? — Yes. 5t)(l4. And ending at the same point as the western end of section 15? -Acs. !**■ FORREST 3(54 tloii. C'oiitrMotii Mom. 14 anil 15. ^'onllll n portion of till' SUIltlllTIl lliin inore ravoiir- iililc, but. I lie ills- tnncc liicrciiscd. Does not. tliiiik It U'onld tiavi' saved much expense. In Ni>v( inlior <>r IST'i, niiiile !i siir- ve\' In I'linnei'tioii Willi Cuiro's trial line troin LaUe Afinns to (onoli the Irl.il lino of JK7I on contriiei 1 1. Tlie country tlirou>;li uliich he passed not so favouralilc as pri'heiit lucalcil fllie. 500"). What did you flinl ? — Tlicrc was a portion of (lio line n,,,,.,^, favf>unil)k', Lut tlio length was iiieroased botwecu .'{00 and 40U tcrt. olJOi!. Would it havo saved much of that oxpcn-^o? — I hai-Jly diini- it, as ii was impossible to escape the bay. 5G()7. It would still havo iiKduded the bay? — \'os. 5(!0S. And CroHH Lake ?- -Yes. S'lO'.f. Da you know anything of any other line south of thai which would have boon more fttvourable than the one ado[)ltd ? — 1 iiavf in.i given Jial ninttof any consideration. 5()10. When you say it was impossible to e^^cape Cross l/iko, j-mi mean it Avas impossible to escape it by retaining the terminus wliirh you jiad ? — Yes. .')'II1. You do not nu^an it would havo been impossible by aiiollur line to liiive es(aj)ed it? — ^o; not at all, T)'!!-. Is there anything further about this matter which you woiiM like to explain ?— No ; there is nothing. J omitted to stale iliiU in iho fall ot 187;") — November, lh7o — 1 was instructed to make a ^-iirviy from J;!ikc Agnes, ;il*oul three miles east ot the north eml of (J^l)^^ Lake, weslwiod, to connect with the trial line of 1H74, on contract U, about seviiiiteeii miles from Cross Lake. This line was i-uii in cdii- lU'Cticii witli the trial line then being run by Mr.Caric from the l);illc's on the Witiiiipeg Kiver. nni.S. That was under the instruction of Mr. Carre ? — I was iiistructnl ly .»ir. Rowan. ^(iH. Was it while you were serving as assistant to Mr. Ctirrc?— No; 1 was ically then umUu- Mr. Thompson, but Mr. Jv '\v,in njuiivd my services. 1 had l)((en appointed on contract 14, tiii't was taken from that contract to do llie work. ')6]7>. Was that to connef't with the line whi(di In 1 been previoibly run by Mr. Carre? — lie was lliwii running a lino Irom the I'allo* Id Lake Agnes. '}ii\i'). What was theg^uioral character of tho country throu,'li wliitli you ]);!ssed ? — It was ii )t so iavourabie as the present iocali'd liiu; of contract 14. 5017. That would correspoiid with a part of the present se> lion U: That is, ii woulti be within the same degrees of longitude ? — Yi-s : about. 7)6\^\ Your eastern t' rminus of that survey would be somewhere diiectly north of the eastern terminus of section 14? — It w.s i^Ueiuieil to be as nearly so as possible. Gtiin. Is there anything further which you wibh to say ? — I cutinot recollect anything particular. 363 FELLOWES lUkii- I I iiiiU 15 a ml ■ ■iiir Ht'Ml. »f Kill Ui\<'i WiNNll'EH, Tut'silay, 21sL Soptoinbcr, 1880 (; R, L. FELTiOWEP, sworn and oxumincd : By the Chairman : — 5020. Uiivo jou boon omijloyod in any work coniieetod with the ,„ ^i,,^,^^ ,^, Caiiailian PuciHc Railway"' — Vos, since ihe .sprinic ol" ^874. I was ussistant loveiicV II enii)loyc'd as sissistant levellor, and sent up to this country hy Mr. nnTumr.v'Via'i' Carre. \\\\v friiiii Kni I'orliiui' to .'ili'Jl. Whore was your tirst work? — From Rat Porta;',;e to Broken- {[','^:J*;."'""'"' head Uiver, noi.r the Uno that is at present under construction. n(J2'i. What w:i« the natur6 of the work done tliat season ? — It was ;i in'climinary trial line, with the location tollovvini,^, made hy the same party. .■)G2;{. How long did you remain on that work ? — I'ntil February, I tjiiiik. 1 think the survey ended in Februai-y. 51)24. Of what year? — 1S75. 5()2r) Do you moan field work or office work ? — Si\nply field work. r)(J2(I. Then you were earryin ? — Yes. ,,,, ... 1 . ri 1 .. T • 1 ^r 1, III 1S7."), Wifll 5(J27. What did you do in February (—1 was with Mr. l-ori-cst run- Kurn-st, iuiiiiIiik iiirig the line from Shoal Lake to Red River. rlak'?'to''Rru''''' Klver. 562S. Is that the Shoal Lake west of Re'^ ii'in31. About what time did you go to Ottawa? — I think it was in March. L am not very clear as to the time, but it was in the spring iif 1875. 5()S2. Was it at Ottawa that you took part in the office vvoik con- office work, noc'ted with those sectionn ? — Yes. 5C3. Dii'37. Did you take out the quantities for tlie whole ? — No ; I merely JH..do tho plan. FELLOWES 366 Odii'o work. tiuii— ^VVnuali^."" •'><''"i8- Vou mean the location plan ?— Tlio location plan. 563'J. Did you not do any work on the protilos ? — No ; none. f)*!!'). Thon the location ])laii would not enablo you to take out ijuaii titles?— No; it would not. 5611. Did you take any part in cstimatin<,' the quantities fdr that Work ? — I think not. 5Ct-i'i. Describe what woi-k you did in connectioji with that loratioii in tho othce? — Merely takin in tlie Ottawa otliee. ri644. Have yon soarciied tor it in the otiice hero? — Yes, a little, Kiit Mr. Rowan told uw that he is prepared to say that the majority ni tlu' plans, itarticularly of tho south line, W(^re in Ottawa — at hiast lie leti ii ihere at the tinu' he was beloro the Senate CJoniiniltee. 7)ii4i^>. This i> not the south line that you are speakiiii;' oi'?-~N(> ; it ir^ t'lo mi(Ullo line. 5f;4<>. Did you say that Ml'. Uouan inl'ornis you that the nKijuitv oflhi' plans aie at Ottawa ? — Yes. 5647. Mii;ht not this be anionic: the minority ? — It mi^hl be. That I • •annul swear to. 5648. Ilavo you a>ke(l at tho otliee here for this particul.ii' plan tiiu' you describe? — No; I have not. The south line plan and proHli' wi'i; the ones I asked about yesterday'. 5(;i9. Are they here ? — They are not her(>. I ])roduce a plan shown to tne. which 1 think is a tracini;- of the ]dan 1 made in 1875, in tin- otiier, of the ceiitn> lino— the 1874 line. (Kxhibit No. lOt).) A|)|>(-iiit,Miii;ii)sit r>(]50. Aflei- tho otlne work in the sitrini;- oi' 1^75, wdiat did vou dn Mall to (arm ((( . . , , ,-, ... n -i .^ ■ . . i". iiiBkc II Hill- c.v next m connection with the racilic Kailv/ay r — 1 was a|)iointed transit man with Mv. Oarre, to make a survey from Kat l'orlai:;e, aiul iin|iruv(!, if pcssiblo. tho work of the ])reviousyear. I think we commenced opL'r;!- tions at [lat I'oitag'e in .lime It was then intended to try the preHVii south line laid down near the IjaUe of the Woods. 5651. Is that the lino !^oing south of Falcon Lake ? — Yes. 5652. When you spoak of tho pre.scnt south line, you d.) not nieiiii the line at present located ? — No. 5653. You mean the line which .appears on the maps as the south survey? — Yes. 5654. How lon^ were you upon that work in 1875 ? — Until JNovembof or December. I think it was about the 10th of November. 5655. Thon your field work for that season ceased ? — Yes. 5656. About how far west did you run that survey? — The line measured^ I think, about sixty-four miles, tieing in with contract 11 near Bog llivor. 5657. Did it strike section 14, east or westofliog Rivor? — Easjt of Hog Eiver. from Kill I'ortii ■West wind. 3G7 FELLOWES tioii- 5658. About how far oast ?— I would not bo prc^parol to siato tlm.. I *'i"*„'",MVi ."""*■ ihink tlie fitutioM wo ticil-in with on contract 14, was 2000. 51)50. Wliat sizetl ])Hi-ty made that survey of 1875 ? — Mr. Carre's party wiisdivitled up into two. I was transit man on one, with Mr. Wators vlcvtilicr, a rotl man, pickot man, about .six axo n>on, and 1 think a iiifiO Hal you chai'i'O of that ijurty undor Mr, Carro ? — Under Mr. ihuior Mr. cmiiv, Cjiia', 1 liud supervision ot it. „i prutV in is::.. ')(J()1. Wk) had chari,'e of the otiier. parly under Mr. (Jarre? — Mr. Iinbin.-><)n. 5H62. II'iw iiuich of thi.s lino did you your.self h)cate ? — 1 located ;iom l:{:it Porta^'c to this point near lioi.^ Kivei-. 5tiii,'j. Ih'W much of it did Mr. Uohinson locate? — lie twivUs trial lines ln'iuk'il in .lill'eient diveelions, midci- insti'uctions from -Mr. Cane. .■)iilM. Then yon wen* over tin; whole line with yoiii- ])arty ? — ^ es. .'iljily. Are you able to form any comparison between the feasibility i';ni oi iik. nt thill line and of tho one which was afterwards adoj)ted ?— Not very vV.'ry'MiVi'ii'i.'.r'i'.'!' ' ni'll; I ild merely* compare between certain distances to the present s.Tii.111 i.,,ms,ii iiiie. 1 niii;lil say, from K'at Porlage twenty-eit^ht miles of tho i-onntry t^'"'"*'""'- svery similar to section 15 as ut present under eonti-act. 5(ili(I. About what point would that bo? — That would be the west, (■III of Crow Lake. iiiKj". And from there weslwai'd, are you able to compare the teusi- Ami p.iri hkiiiu; bilityoflhe two lines?— From about twenty-ei^dit miles to fourly-five fuVavhl'JunVt'r,'.' Imiles to Rat Portau'e. ihe country is similar, 1 think, to the east end iieas.\ liii. m| MHlion 14. ,^lllJ8. Do you mean the extreme end of 14 at Cross fiake ? — Ves ; leaving out the heavy till. otiOO. is that a nutro favoui'ablo line? — That 1 never formed aiiv |()|iinion about ; I loft that entirely to my superiors, ."iGlO. Have you not formed any opinion from your own knowledge ottho two localities ? — Ni^ , I have not, 56"]. In what respect did that latter portion of the lino — 1 laean Wtwecn tho end of tho twentN-oitrht and the end of tho fourty-five miles— difler from tho fii'st twenty-oight miles? — The fills wevi^ li«^ht. Wc (■ould !;el an oasN' grade, and tho cuttings wore not >o heavy, with the exception, perhaps, of one or two points. One point that 1 think I romombcr of, was about fourty-four miles on the west side of Kalcon lliver; it was a summit. The work there, 1 fancy, \\(»uld l)e heavy. r)G72. Taking that balan<'e of sovonteon miles, did you think it was ikely to bo less expensive, Oi" more expensive, than the tir-'t twenty eight miles of the south line? — It would be less expensive thorn the I first portion. .3671 Mtxch le.^s expensive ? — I could not say !i67l. Are you not able to say, in passing over tho (M)antT'y and loca- ticg a line, something about tho ditierenee in expenditure of a railway through it?-- At that time I did not give a great deal of attention to iit: my principal tiioug'it was to lay down as cheap a 'ine as I could FELLOWES 3(}8 Kn\tlw<«y Koch* IImii <'i>iitl'ni'lH NwM. 14 liiul ■•'>. I'roiu I we Illy* lorly-IIVK imIIohoii I lie soiitliirii llui'wcst ol' ICiI I'lirliiiit!, would have l)i'rii <'<)nsUliTal>ly i'lii'ii|i('r timii till' llrsl l\vi'iity-ol«lit miles. (iiumHIIfs taken lint oil south line. I'raclico as lo r(?sponsll)IUty for titturt's matle out by eugliieers. Engineer in (Oiarge docs not revise figures of subordinates. He tests woik in one or two places, and if Inaccuracy found tlie work lias to be gone over. Yet calculations may be Incorrect. throu,i;h llio coiiiiUy l)y exploring'. Tlio resull of that I did imt mai;^. up or uivo any M^rioUH coiisidoralion to, ItecauHo I loft that oiiiin.ly i,, my .sti[)ei'ior.s t j judgo. fjliTo. I»ul if it was loll to you to lay down us choaji a lino ;is V',u cotild l)y t'xpioratioii, would not the prol)ablo uxjiciidiluiu be oiiu ol ih,. materials lor your consideration ? — Vos. 5()7(». Well, 1 am asUin;L? upon that (luestion : whether it would IhmihIv ^li^Mitly cheaper, the iirst portion of the lino which you located, ur ,i,|",. siiicrably cheaper? — It would ho considerably cheaper. The tKniliKi^ i do not. remoinber the j^rades across the nuiskcj^, on the east niu\ w^ of F.'dcon iviver. That is a lar^o marsh. Ol'courso if iIicih; w.isa heaw haidv there, wo might have a rej)otition or it would besimiiaf in Crop's Lake. There is a probability ot that; but I am at a loss, :i> | ,1,, ,|„| remember the position of the grades in that section. itCtll . Do yoi! know whether (juantitios were lii! pr(»jocted line, south, or on any portion of it? — ^'e.sj I think 'jiiantitiiK were taken out on the south line. 5G78. Upon what portion of it ? — I think througli the whulc nf ii, 5fI7!>. Did you take any part in estimating those quantities ?— .\ viiv little, I thiidi I began to take out (juantitios at the beginning of il," calculation. 5(>8(l. ^'ou moan at tho east end ? —On the east end. A liouhio ovrwcl in my family anil 1 had to leave tho ollico. Then I had to Icive the party, and I think tho balance ol Mr. Carre's party assisted in lakiiii; out (juantities. 5(581. Would tho ttiking out of those (|Uantities bo subject fi tii' revision of Mr. Carre, or would each por.son who iuok (jiiantitics im tlu' tirst instance, return that as a tinal report on tho subject? — I lliitik i: was subject to his revision, and thoy were under instructions from him, I think, at tho time. 5(j82. Speaking about the practice in such matters, was it iisiml t'.i! a person who had charge of such work as ^'ou did, and took niii Miiii ([uantitios as you did, to make a tinal report to the Dc|)arLim'iil?— 1 think, if they have coriHdence in a man, they accept his ligiire- ;is correct, .")683. Then the engineer in charge, if his subordinate is oonsidoivi competent, takes no responsibility connected with that tigiiriiig?— 1 think ho has to assume tho responsibility as a matter of practice. 5684. Does he, as a rulo, actually revise them and go over the caKu. lations ? — No ; I do not think he can ; he has not the time. 5G85. What is the general practice? Is it the general practice iliiit the engineer in charge goes over the calculations, or does ho permit his subordinates to make the final report on the subject?—! think j that they give it a test at different points to prove the accuracy of the j work. If they find it incorrect the work has to be gone over again. 5G8G. But notwithstanding that test at different points, tho calcula-j tions may be incorrect, and it may not be discerned ? — Yes ; they may, 5687. And was that the practice generally followed by Mr. Carre?-! I could not say what he revised; but I think he had a good deal ot'j confidence in his assistaats. 3C1) FELLOWES nnllway I lull — ;)l588. Dill you know at nny lime of the calculation of liis assistants ^'"Yy","'/,^, luiiic' assumed to bo correct without revision, and i-olurnod us such to ihe siipi''"io'' "lllitior ? — 1 cannot call to memory now ; it does not strike me at this moment. 5t)8!). Would not his subordinates have some general understanding on \\m subject, whether it was the practice to adopt them without re- vision or not? AVould it not bo talked about amon^ them? — I think not. They carried out his instructions as closely an they could. ,')690. If any revision ditl take place of those calculations of quanti- tiirt, was it the practice that the engineer in charge should ask his suboitlinatos to bo picsont, or would ho do it alono in his own office? — I liavo never been present at any revision that I can remember of. _, , , ... ... 1 ... 1 ^ Not iiwaro 5C91. Then as to those quantities which you did take out, you are whether .jimnti- i,ot aware whether they were revised or not ?— No. him wer^r'-vlw'S or not. r)C92. Do you nny that you think the quantities which you were not able to revise on this southerly lino were revised bj' Mr. Kirkpatrick and some others of the party ? — Only the plan was prepared : that is, jiijttho ground line ; just merely the plan was what Mr. Kirkpatrick was at. 5693. Do you say that after you were obliged to leave oft' taking out .[uantities on the south lino, some other one of the party pi-oceoded with the calculations of those quantities? — lam under that impression. 5G94. Who did you say had charge of that calculation ? — J think tliLMO were John Macara, Alox. McNab, JiOuis Waters, who is now (lead, and David Rodger, working at the calculations. 5095. Why do you think so ? — I am under the impression that when I left the office, they were all engaged at it — all of Mr. Carre's party — ard I am unuor the impression that they were taking out quantities. 5696. Do you know whether Mr, Carre ever revised the calculations ot those other persons ? — I do not know. 5697. Do you know whether Mr. Carre returned any report upon the subject of quantities on the southerly line to his superior officer ? — J do not know. 5698. Do you know whether Mr. Carre had formed any opinion carre thouRht officially of the expenses of this southerly line, for the whole or any f,iSch*rheaper * part of the distance ? — I think he was rather glad of the way the itne. southerly line turned out. He thought it was a much cheaper line, that is as regards the work to be done per mile, than the central line 5699. Then ho had formotl the opinion that the quantities would make it less expensive ? — Yes ; less expensive for the same number of miles. 5700. Do you know whether he made any return of that information I to his superior officer ? — I do not know. 5701. Had you been able to form any opinion on the subject yourself? -In going over the country I imagined that our southerly line was I better for the same number of miles than the central line. 5702. I mean had you formed any further opinion than you described Ufew moments ago ? — No ; I did not give it any consideration. I was pushing at the plan. ' 24 FELLOWES 370 ■MiltvHy I. f)703. Iliul you ^ono into ilmt Muhjocl caroi'iilly imiou^'Ii to ,.^^ whothei-you concurred in Mr. Cunv's opinion or ncd? — No. 5704. Did 3'ou take tiny purt in tlio ottico woi-k connoctod wiU, [y Hiirvoy — of tho Koulhcrly lino — such us making out locjilion idniK,, profile ? — Yos ; I think I made u plan to the H(!aU* of 400 feet to an imi 5705. Was that for location ? — Yo»; lor location. 570(J. Not a j)rotilo ? — Not a proHIo — ^,ju8t a lottation plan. 5707. Was there any other work that you did in coiuioctiou wjif that Hoiithorly line there, in the field, or in the oilicc ? — VVc ran a ^||hl• branch at Cross LnUr. to Clearwater Bay. 5708. Was that a deviation fi-oni the first plan you have spoken of' — No; it was just a little branch — a spiii* runnini;- down to the v,m!,- It was more for the contractors than anything else. 5701>. What was the len^'th of that sjnir (tr bi'anch ? — AIdhi ;, m,,, and adialf, as near as I can I'cmember. 5710. Was tlioro anything further connoctod with llial ,ii:'[ gosting i.nything that struck me to my superior. 5710. Tiien it was always as subordinate to some superior orticor'-j Yes; always subordinate — transit man. 5717. After this completion of the survey of the southerly line, what I was your next work, either in the field or in the office ? — I was absent from the office for a time ; then, on returning to the office, 1 think I made tracings of either the centre line or the southerly line to take with us in the improved location survey of contract 15, the field work of which began in .June of 1876. 57 18. Where did you do this office work? — In the Canadian Pacii Railw^ay Office tit Ottawa. There is where I was in the winter raoiitb, making out these plans that I have reference to, 57I!). Then what was your work after the coramencomont, in Juneoi 1876? — I was ordered to improve the line, under instructions, from j Zero to station 290. •M FELLOWES lion 5;20. Hi'doi- wl.om ?— Under Mr. Curro. <'....i.... i Sn i«. By Mr. K>efcr :— i'21. Wtioro is Zero? — Zoro is at tho custom outlet of tlie T,:ikf <•( ,l,oWii'-, 1 chaui^cl tho line und inijirovcil il so a.s to U's-i.i, ||n. (luaiititic-*. Tho ohjoct was to lossoii tho i|uantitics in tho cultinu;<, iiml iiiiivasc tho tills as little as possihlc. The tills were th^Mi heavy. j,i„ltlH'^M'ii(los were high. .')72o. Would your lessonini,' the (pianlilios in tin? iiittini^s hnve the tll'oi't of 'liiiiiuishiiii^ tho i[iumtilies in the tilUy — No. it wmld liave tlu' contrary elVoct. .^)7i(). Then how do yon m(Min that yon could .acctMnplish tlie-e two ii„\v !,,■ nni-nivod thiiij,'-' at llii- same litno'.'' — In the i>hicin^ of the line and usitig (-harper ii"'iiii<'. ciirve.>. ■)727. Do you mean in lenj^thenin<; tho fills? — No; in lessciiin::- tho (luantitios ••O([uii'od to make theso tills. 5728 |)f) you moan that you would select t^ntund in which there would be shallower tills ? — If po.ssihie. .i72!i. .So that at tho samo time that you rediiceil the .pianMly of th,- eiitliii,i,'s you covild make a lino without havini; us much emhankmcpi lb would ho required in tho tirst located line? — Ves ; tin; first (d)je(t wa> to diminish tho ()uantity of I'ock. 5730. Was that done in any instance whore it mi<{ht atleet tho pei-- iiiancnt value of the road? — I do not luiderstiuid that ipiestion as you arc putting it. 5731. For instance, you might do it by making such shar)) curves as Four ii.'sir.cs tiio til make extra wear on your engines? -Xo ; We wore to stick to the '""'''"i'"" ''"'■^■•'• oiirves given to us, four degrees being the maximum. 5732. Then, was your improved location an advantage both as to mIum',ilivll?TaKo Iho coni^truction of tho road and as to the working of it afterwards? — i)<>tii asto tiie ,,,.,.. o construction ot 1 ttnnk it was. t ho roail and Mio workhig of It, 5(33. liow long were you employed upon making that improved location? — Until about the month of August. 5734. That was upon the lino as now adopted ? — Yes, on the centre line— on tho line of 1874. 5735. How far did you make that improved survey ?— Prom Zero to Employed station 290. Then Mr. Kirkpatrick commenced there and ran to station ^!t!^y'^.^T^^-T^ 720. 1 was removed up to 720 and made the location from that to station to it2s. 928, 1 think it was. 5736. Was the work which you did on that portion of the line similar to that which you had done from Zero to :^90 ?— Very much similar. 24i IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I SUM iim '" IM 11112.2 136 12:0 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 ^ 6" — ► '9 ^ /: 'c>l "^ c% =^c> #„v '>* Riotographic Sciences Corporation 4: ^v 4l>^ \\ ^/^. # 0^ 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY. 14580 (716) 872-4503 i\ \ 6^ mmm FELLOWES 372 ■allivay LiOca^ Contract No. 15. Runs a trial line Irom station 44 to Btation 179 Houth of the then located line. Taking croBH* tjectlOHH for quau- titles from Zero to Btatioa 480. Plotted erosB- seetlons between November and •end of December, ]87(i. Not until after Nov., 1876. was data establinhed on which others could calculate quantities. 5737. llow long wore you upon that portion of it ? -That and liie previous Hurvey occupied the time 1 have mentioned — I tliink i., September. 5738. What did you do after that ? — Then I was ordered to run a trial lino from station 44 to station 179, closer to the Lake of the Wools and south of the then located line, to exhaust the subject and see if we could better the line that wo then had. 5739. Was that going back over the ground that you had gone over earlier in the season, to see if you could not still further improve th,. line ? — Yes. 5740. How long were you upon that ? — It was a short time. I do not remember exactly the time — perhaps a week or a fortnight. 5741. What did you do after that? — After that we commenced takin' cross-sections for quantities from Zero up to station 480. 5742. About what time did you commence taking those cross- sections ? — From September, I think, up to the middle of November, 5743. Did you return the quantities that you were taking out, after cross-sectioning, to anyone? — Noj we did the field work — that wau taking cross-sections with a level, and then we plotted the cross-sections fiom the field notes on the cross-section paper or plan. 5744. Do you say you put them down in that way between September and November, 1876 ?— Between November and the end of December, I think. 5745. Then you did not plot down your cross-sectioning before November, 187G ?— I do not think so. 1 think that our time was fully occupied in the field. 5746. After you had plotted them, would it not be necessary to make calculations to ascertain the quantities ? — ^That was the object in making cross-sections, to obtain quantities. 5747. The object was to give some person data from which to calcu- jate quantities ? — Yes. 5748. The work which you are describing would not show the quan- tities? — No ; it would not. 5749. It would only be data for other persons to ascertain the quan- tities from ? — Yes. 5750. But you did not establish those data until after November, 1876?— No; 1 think not. 5751. For what portion of the line did you establish those data?- from Zero to station 480. 5752. Do you know who, if any one, was doing similar work on the rest of the line ? — I am not positive, but I think Mr. Kirkpatrick was doing similar work. 5763. Under Mr. Carre? — Yes; under Mr. Carre. 5754. In all this work they were subject to Mr. Carre? — Yes. 5755. Do jou think Mr. Kirkpatrick was doing all this on 14 from 480 ? — No ; the second nine miles in the contract. 6756. Who had the next sub-division ? — They were continuing the improvement of the line— that is, Mr. Waters and Mr. McNab— from 373 FELLOWES the point I left it at station 928 or theroaboutn, and they had to bo down at Cross Lake before the cro88-seclio"8 could bo a^co^tained. I thinic that took up their time until the snow fell . 5757. Did you do any cross-sectioning except on this first sub-divi- sion ?-No. 5758. Do you know who did the cross-sectioning upon either of the tivolast sub-divisions ? — I do not. 5(59. It was done, under instruction from Mr. Carre, by some one? — Yee. 5760. Then at what time that season did you end the field work ? — I The field work, I think, ceased in November, when the plotting of the [ work began. ilTGl. What did you do after that ? — I think I was brought into Win- I lipt'g here to assimilate levels. 5162. What do you mean by assimilating levels ? — There was a [difference between the levels brought through from Thunder Bay and |lhe levels we were working on, of some 21*37 ; this we had to add on, think, to all our levels. 5763. Do you mean to raise the grade to that extent ? — No ; we lestablished datum up here independently of it, and when this was tied- n to our work we had to raise our datum to 2I^^> 5"64. You mean that you were doing that work on the plans and [profiles ?— In the book work we were adding it to our datum figures. 5765. So as to give the persons who prepared the profiles from your jbooks that improvement in the data ? — ^Yes. By Mr. Keefer : — 5766. Could you tell us what you assumed the surface of Lake of the I^Voods to bo — 1 suppose you started from that ? — I do not remember. By the Chairman : — 5(67. Did you know, during the work in the field of this season of |1876, that it was generally understood among the persons employed on Itlie surveys that this deviation in the location of the line would lessen pe qnantitios to bo submitted to the contractors ? — Yes. 5768. Could you say about what time in the year that impression kame a general one among the persons employed ? — No ; I do not [iliink I could give dates ; it was while we were going under canvas. 5769. Do you remember Mr. Marcus Smith going over the line that leason ?— Yes. 5770. Had you any communication with him during that visit on Ibat subject ?— No ; I think I mentioned that some changes in the line Ve™ going to reduce the quantities by large figures, just from obsor- ^Mion with ray eye, without making any calculations. 5771. Do ytu say large figures?— Yes; I thought so. 5772. You mean that it would lessen the quantities?— Y'es; lessen tie quantities very much at some points. 5773. When did your work end in connection with this improvement If the survey ?— In November, I think, was the date I gave. Railway f.ors- tloii. Contract No. 1.5. Assimilates levels. Understood that deviation of line would lessen quantities. WltOMi'i work and Improving survey ended in November. FELLOWES 374 tlon— Contract No. 15. Thinks approxi- mate quantities lor lenderB could be got at by means of this section. Explains. When Carre was away witness decided the move- ments of the party. In other matters the engi- neer in charge directed. 5774. Then what did you do with them? — I plotted those cross-sec tions that I spoke of. 5775. Whore did you go to do it? — I plotted them under canviis Ijut 1 think I made fuller notes in the office in Winnipeg, with Mr. c'aiTe 5776. Wei'o you and Mr. Carre hei-e together, in Winnipeg, at that lime ? — Yes; wo met in Winnipeg. I think Mr. Carre was in before [ was. 5777. Do you know when the quantities were taken out for ihij located line, after your survey made with that object ? Wore they taken out that winter? — I do not know; I had nothing to do with taking out quantities. 5778. Are you aware whether they were taken out at Wiiinipeiror at Ottawa?— No. " 5779. At what time had you to furnish sufficient data for the sectiun or sub-section which was uiidor your charge to enable any one to take out quantities? — When the section was made they could have got at the approximate quantities. 5780. You mean cross-soctioning ? — No, not the cross-soctionini'; just the section when it was made. I think the probable quantities could have been got at close enough to allow of tenders being called for, 5781. AVhat do you mean by the section ? — Just the levels taken ;it the stations every 100 feet, and at different points between the 100 feet, wherever a break of the ground would occur. 5782. Would the}^ be taken down in your field-notes? — They would be taken down by the leveller. 6783. Would they appear in the level books ? — Yes. 5784. Do you mean that those books could then have been handed to some person, and that quantities, sufficiently approximate for tenders, could have been obtained? — I think, by an experienced engineer, the quantities could have been taken out from those books close enough to allow of tenders being based on them. 5785. When did you say those data, which you describe as beiiii; j sufficient for skilled engineers, were actually furnished to any peri^on for that pui-pose ? I do not remember; but I think it was the duty of the leveller to furnish the Division Engineer, Mr. Carre, with the | information when he required it ; it did not pass through my hand\ Perhaps the only thing I would like to add, would be the section of our j day's work, but my duty properly was to follow out the line laid down by the officer in charge, who was Mr. Carre. I did not take a special interest in the leveller's work. 5786. Would the leveller be called upon to hand in his level bookjl direct to Mr. Carre, instead of through you ? — Certainly. 5787. Then in that respect he was not subordinate to you? -No; except in matters of moving camp. When Mr. Carre was away I wisj the party to say when we should move and where to. 5788. So that some of the parties had duties to fulfil towards the| engineer in charge irrespective of you ? — I should judge so. 6789. Was it so practiced ? — Yes ; in some cases. 375 FELLOWES 5790. Then you aro not able to say at what time, or whether such liooks were furnished to any person to enable them to take out quanti- tie3?--Noi 1 cannot. 1 do not remember it at this moment. 5791. Did you put down on cross-sectioning paper, from time to time, iho result of your work, or did you wait until towards the end of the survey for that season before you marked it on the cross-sectioning paper?— I think that the leveller took rough cross-sections as the ifork progressed, and that assisted Mr. Carre in laying down the ira- piwed lines that he required to run. By Mr. Reefer: — 5792. But did you not keep yourself, on section paper furnished in the office, a tracing to show the position of the work from day to day as it progressed — I mean the longitudinal section of the line that you were running with the transit? — No ; nothing further than Mr. Carre pencilled it in, and we did not apply it to the plan until the survey »aa finished. 5793. It was not done from day to day ? — No. By the Gliairman : — 5794. I understood you to say that that Avas done under canvas before you went to Winnipeg to plot the plans ? — The cross-sections of tk surveyed line were done after the survey was made, so as to allow of quantities being taken out more closely than you could get from the section. 5795. When you speak of sections as distinct from cross-sections, I you mean the longitudinal sections, the cross-sections being at right I angles? — Yes; at right angles to a point on the line. 5796. Do you say you went to Ottawa in the spring of 1877, or jwnt to Winnipeg ?— I had leave of absence, and I was not on duty. 5797. For what time? — For two months. I got married then. 5798. What two months? — I had only onejmonth — part of April and I the beginning of May. 5799. Then were you not in Ottawa that month on duty? — No; on I leave of abisence. I had nothing to do with the work at that time. 5800. What was your next work for the Government in connection [with the I'jiilway ? — I was preparing for the contractor's men. 5S01. Preparing what ?— Staking out the ground and laying out the [work on the ground. 5802. What time did 3011 commence that ? — That was about the jmiddleof June, I think. 5803. Were you still under Mr. Carre? — Yes; he was the engineer I in charge of the contract. 5804. Were you next to him ? — I was supposed to be the first assistant. 5805. What party had you for that work ? — A rod man and an axe [man. 5806. Was that for the whole of the section onconti'act 15 ? — About {nine miles. 5807. Which nine miles ? — ^The easterly nine miles from Zero to 480, Rikli^vuy MAH-a.- tlon— CoiitrnvtNo. 15. Progress of work not recorcU'd from day to (lay but pencilled in i).v Carre and applied to plan wben sur- vey was flnlslied. HaiUvay Cou Htrnctiou. L,aylns; out work for contractor's men, June, 1877. Still under Ci. no, ' At.' ' FELLOWES 376 Lal 5809. About how long did that take you ? — As the contrackir required the work set out, then it would be done, or instructions given to him. 5810. Had ho his men upon the ground at the same time ? — Yes; lie had a walking boss then, I think, named Pettit, and he was t!.o first oflacor that was sent on to the works to superintend the construction. 581 1. Was the construction commenced at that end of 15? — Yes; at that time. 5812. Then you did not lay out the work on the ground us soon as it could be done, but only from time to time sa the contractor i-equired it, so as to keep ahead ©f him and not impede him by delay ? — Y^es. 5813. Did that require you to be continuously engaged ? — No. 5814. When you were not engaged in that particular work whaf were you doing ? — It there wag any office work I would attend to that. 5815. Where was the office ? — At Keewatin. 5816. Was there any office work? — Very little at that time. 5817. Then you were not continuously engaged either in office worl{ or laying out work for the contractor? — No; there would be a rush for work. Wo would have a lot of field work to do, and then the same witli the office work. We were not steadily engaged. 5818. About what time did you finish laying out the work for the contractor in this sub-section ? — It is not completed yet. .581>. Then if you are not continuously engaged at that or at office work, what are you doing? — I suppose amusing myself. canuf.t say what 5820. About what proportion of the time would you be able to amuso fim^Vasgivento yourself ? — That I could not say; I do not remember. Perhaps we would have a day — and perhaps a quarter of a day — or half a day at various times. 5821. You have no idea of the proportion of the time: would you be occupied more than half of the time ? — I think so. 5822. More than two-thirds ? — I would not be positive. 5823. Was it not practicable to proceed with the laying out of this work on the ground without any of these delays or amusements tliat you speak of? — It could have been done with assistance. 5824. I mean with the assistance which you could obtain ?— The majority of it could have been done, I think. 6825. Would it not have been more advantageous to the Government betfe^to procTOd if you had proceeded immediately and without delays of any kind to out of u*ewi?l '*y °"* *^® ^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^ y^^ could, and end that job, and then get ■without delays, some other job instead of having recesses continuously between the beginning and the end of it ? — I do not know that it would. I think part of the time might better be given to more office work and work- ing up quantities, testing the line laid down to see whether it could be improved or not, and making improvements where work was going on if possible. amusement. Witness's reason why it WHS not 377 FELLOWES But for the prt)- bablUtles of changes in the grade, Ac, work might have heeii flnlshed up and bis services maile available for other places. Ntruvtloii— ;')826. Do you mean, whilo you wore laying out the work for th^ '^*'"**''**'* *"• *'''" contractor it was necessary that you should remain thoi-o, so that any i,"ee8sTiry?" vrork which he did would be subjected to your supervision ; that you could not have gone awry from that sub-section whether you had your vfoik completed or not? — I tiiink it was necessary to have a super- vision of the work, and direct the men as to what was required to be done, 5827. Then, besides laying out this work for the contractor, you were charged with the supervision of his work ?— I exei'cised u certain amount of supervision subject to my superior officers. 5828. I understand you to say that at the beginning of this particu" lar work you were instructed merely to lay out the work for the con' tractor. Now, if that were all that you were required to do, you could have done it without any stoppages and proceeded to other work ? — Yes; I could have done that if no changes were made, or if no changes were anticipated. I could have gone on with it and laid it out from end to end. 5S29. And then your servioss would have been available for other localities? — Yes ; they would have been. 5830. Let us understand why that was not done, why you did not tinish that work and make your services available for other localities ? —Because there was the probability of a number of changes takingplace. Tiie grades being changed points would come up that would necessitate a lot of outside surveys, besides the line work, the work of staking out. The cuts and fills could have been done on the located line, and my services made available for other work. 5831. Were you directed to do anything more than lay down that work upon the ground when you first went there ? — There was nothing definite told me, further than that I had supervision, as I understand it, of that first nine miles — that is, to do all I possibly could towards setting out the work for the contractors, and assisting them in getting men into the points. 5832. Is it the usual practice, when assistant engineers lay out work on the ground for the contractors who are ready to work, that they should remain there and exorcise supervision over the work which the contractor actually does ? — [ do not think it is necessary for that par- ticular man who sets out the work to remain there. 5833. Is it necessary to have some one ? — I should think so. 5834. Is it the usual practice ? — It is the usual pmctice. 5835. Were you instructed to aflfonl facilities to the contractor as to the locality and quantities of work required of him ? — What way would that be ? 6836. In any way. Are you aware that Mr. Whitehead complained that neither he nor his engineers could get from the persons in charge, on behalf of the Government, sufficient information to enable him to commence work with convenience ? — I heard rumours of complaints. 5837. Now can you understand my question : whether you were in- structed to give them all facilities or not ? — I do not remember exactly the instructions ; I think that at the outset the contractor's engineer came to me asking for certain information. Necessary to have soiue one to supervise the contractor'ii work. FELLOWES 378 Hallway Ooii- atrnctlon— Couti'Kct Mo. 15. ns a right. •Cliaracter of In- forinatioii deHired l),V contractorH. 5838. That is Mr. Euttan ?— Yes ; I told him that, as Mr. Kuttan—as contracto"'8*engi- »" engineering friend of mine — I could give him a certain amount of °t n'r'"^?'^"'^**"" information to assist him in watching the work, but that the informa- tion should or ought to come from the Division Engineer as the officer in charge; but that 1 did not think it would be objectionable to give him this information beforehand so as to assist him, if possible. I have reference to bench marks now. 5839. Was that information which was necessary for thocontruc- tor to obtain before he could go on working comfortably ? — \ do not think so ; I think he could establish his own benches, do his own crois- sections, and then when I was proving certain of the levels to my benches he could tie in. .5840. How were those bench marks made evident to any person ? Do you mean by pegs on the ground or strokes on the trees, or how? — The roots of trees sometimes, sometimes on the top of a stump, sometimes with a nail, sometimes without a nail. By Mr. Keefer : — 5841. Did you not mark the levels of those benches? — F think it was all levelled, but was so often burnt over that the figures wcro obliterated. By the Chairman : — 5842. Do you mean that at the time the contractors came there 3'our bench marks were not to be seen ? — That they were charred— the majority of them. 5843. If the contractor's engineer could not see your bench marks how could he tie-in with them ?— I could tell him. 5844. But I understand that was one of the things you would not tell him ? — I would not tell him until I had an opportunity of testing the thing myself. The leveller had gone over this work, but I wanted to test his work as through work from bench to bench. 5845. Could you not have occupied yourself at those times of amusement in testing as you describe, so that you could give the con- tractor's engineer the information that was necessary? — I think at that time my time was fully occupied in working up other information, and in taking extra cross-sections; the first cross-sections that were taken were rather to establish the grades in the Chief office, as I understood that they had to be approved of there. 5846. Do you mean that at the time that the contractor's engineer asked for the information which he did not get from you, that it was because you were not able to furnish it, or because you were not willing to furnish it? — I was not willing to furnish it without instructions from the Division Engineer. 5847. But you were able to do so if you thought proper ? — I could have given him the information, and he could have made a note of the difference in those bench marks. I could have given him the informa- tion that was given to me by the leveller as recorded in his books. 5848. And which he asked for ? — And which he asked for. that aVi work^'''" 5849. And which you thought not proper to give him ?— Not as the iiandeii over to contractor's engineer. I was under the impression that all work *e"evued'^''°" handed over to the contractor should be revisea, if possible. Jlngineor's "Witness not willing to furulsh contractor's engi- neer with Infor- mation without Instruction from the Division Enstneer. 319 PELLOWE8 5850. IIow would that make a better check? — I could verify the leveller's work by running over his benches. 5851. Whoso benches ? — The leveller's benches. 5852. Then do you mean that you were uot able to give him definite information, because you had not run over those benches? — I could iiccept the leveller's work as correct ; as it turned out it was very nearly con-ect. 5853. Do you mean that you tvere not inclined to give him this information, because you had not satisfied yourself that the leveller's work was correct ? — I wanted to satisfy myself that any work that went out of my oflSce was correct, by checking it. 5851. Then was it because you were not able, or were not willing, to .rjve the information that induced you to decline? — I think that all information ought to come through the Division Engineer to the con- tractor. He ought to be cognizant of the information we were giving, as engineer in charge. 5855. Did you communicate with the Division Engineer on that sub- ject?—! think I did. r)856. Who was the Division Engineer ? — Mr. Carre. 5857. What was his answer ? — I think he I'ofused to furnish him with part of the information he asked for; but about the vouchors I would not be po.silive. I think that Mr. Kuttan also asked me for cross-sections, and that 1 refused it. 5858. Did Mr. Oarre instruct you to refuse cross-sections ? — I think so. 5859. Would it be any disadvantage to the Government to let the contractors get the cross-sections ? — Not if there were suflScient cross- sections taken over the ground. 5860. Did you say the grade pegs were in ? — No. 5861. How could the contractor ascertain the grade pegs, so as to know where to begin, if he was not shown the bench marks ? — He has to get the grade pegs from the assistant engineer to start his cuttings. 5862. Were the grade pegs put down as fast as they were required by him, or at the time they were required by him ? — Yes ; the cuts and fills were given to the workmen, and they would work with cross- heads. 5863. But would it not be necessary for them to commence the cuts and fills by knowing where the grade pegs were ? — If they had the cuts marked and cross-heads put up, the contractor could strike his own grade. 5864. Is it not usual for the proprietor's engineer to famish the contractor with grade pegs, or the locality of the grade pegs ? — Yes. 5865. Was it done in this case? — I would not bo positive that it is done in all cases. 5866. Was it asked for by the contractor ? — I think so. I m'ght have pointed out on the ground whore tho grade was ; but not to put a peg in in every instance. 5867. What time do you say you remained at that woi'k ? — From that time up to the present. Railway Coii» Htriictlon— Contract No. 15. ' . V Thinks all Infor- mation ouglit to como tiirougli tho Division Engi- neer. But Carre refused some informa- tion. Usual to furnish contractor's engi- neer wltli grade pegs or tlie locali- ty of grade pegs. i j>j » h FELLOWES: 380 ntiiiciloii — CouurnctNo. 10. Orntle vnrled after contract v/i\,h let. In consequenco baiibN (letTeased and rock Increas- ed. ObanKes of loca- tloii, Increased rock and decreas- ed fllllngs. 6S68. On lliat particular bub-scotion ? — Yos. 5809. So that your work fram thon until now has bocn on that nine miles? — YcH. 5870. Is it finished ? — No ; it is not completed yet. 5871. After the contract was let was there any material cliaiiirc in the grade ? — I think so. 5872. To what extent?— It varied.. 5873. Could you say upon an average about the extent? — I would not like to say an average. 5874. "What was the general effect of that upon the quantities, either upon rock or embankment ? — I think it decreased the banks and in- creased the rock. 5875. Have you ever compaied the quantities of the work as origin- ally laid out and as now executed ?— I think I have, but I do not remember the figures. 5876. Have you made returns of the different sections— I mean tbe changed quantities in the different sections ? — Yes ; that has beea returned to the engineer. 5877. Would it be possible, if similar returns had been made from each sub-section of the change in the quantities, to show the whole change over the whole line ? — Yes. 5878. I mean the change in the quantities caused by this change in the grude ? — Yos ; it would show it over the whole contract. 5879. As far as your sub-section goes, you had taken out and reported the quantities as changed by these alterations in the grade?— Yes. 5880. Have you made up any estimates of the work which will probably be required to finish the contract on your sub-eection ? — Yes. 5881. Up to "what time, or since what time ? — From about a month ago. 5882. The 1st of August do you think ?— I think so. 5883. Have you returned that ? — Y'^es. 5884. To whom ?— To Mr. Kowan. 5885. When? — About three months ago. 5886. Is that to be revised by any one ?— I could not say. 5887. Have there been slight deviations in that line, or any devia- tions, since the contractors came on to the work which have afl'ected their quantities ? — Very many of them. 5888. In what direction have they affected the quantities; have they increased or decreased them ? — I think the rock has been increased and the fillings decreased. 5889. I mean the change of location, I do not mean the change of grade ? —Yes ; changes of location. 5890. So that the quantities, if they were correctly estimated at the beginning, would be less now than then ; that is, the quantities affected by the change of location ?— Y'^es. 5891. Has Mr. Schreiber been over that line lately ?— Yes. 381 FELLOWES Ilnllt%a>- Coil- • triK'tlnu — 1802. IIuvo any clian;'c.s boon mailo in consoquenco of his diroctions ? *'""*•"'**=* *«• "*• V J r^ 1 cliiiTit-M' nmdi^ 111 _-H'f<. Iixriiilon In ,_ , , , . , 1 ■ n I 1 • (H)iisi'iju('nc(' of W,^3. Ilavo those chant;cs boon in ij>'fi*Jo '>'' locaUon r — In looatioii. srhn-iboi's . , directions. ri894. 1^0 thoy still further (iiininish the quantities, in your opinion ? „. They diminish the quantities in the tills and slightly iiiercaso the nuantities in the i-ock, at points. 5805. Ua« the effect of the changes been to diminish the expenditure ? Eire^t to (iimin- . , . I , ^ lull exiii-adlturo. «.I thuiiv so. 580li. Is anj' part of your sub-section finished? — There are points, cuttings; very few points are finished; that is, there are some catch- wator ditches and things of that description required to bo done to complete. 5897. Is the track laid over any portion of it ? — No ; except tor service cars whore steam shovels are working, and out of cuttings. 5898. Of course, you have travelled over the lino, over that as far as it is finished ? — Yes ; once this summer. 5899. What is the most easterly point to which cars run now ?- AI)oat sixteen miles from Rat Portage. Hixtoeu nillos from Kat Portage, the moat eastenjr pi lint to whicli 5900. Who is the assistant in charge of the sub-section next to you ? <'«r8 luii. (Sept. -W. W. Kirkpatrick. '^''' ^'^ ^ 5901. The unfinished portion then covers your sub-section and most ;,f his ?— Yes ; part of his. "?ion-*' ''""'" 5902. Have you been over any portion of the line south of section Coi't'^tNo.!*. U, except that which you surveyed in 1875, so as to ascertain the i/cneral character of the country, or the feasibility of a railroad over it ?— No ; I have not. Chakisse, an Indian Chief, when I was out at falcon Lake, said that he thought a better line could bo got by running direct towards Winnipeg, than the present location on 14. 5903. But from your own knowledge you have formed no opinion ? -No. 59i)4. Did you take any part in the soundings of Red River at the time Mr. Carre was employed upon that work ?~No. 5905. Were you employed on the line between Rod River and Shoal Lake ?— Y'es. 590G. Is there any other matter connected with this subject which you think ought to be explained, or which you wish to speak of ? — I do not think so, at present. H. F. Forrest's examination continued : FORREST. 5907. Do you wish to corx*ectany of the evidence you gave yesterday ? Corrects previou#' -Yes, I do ; on two points. In giving my evidence yesterday I stated *^^ ^^^^' that my impression was that there was no commissariat officer attached to division R; I desire to correct that statement. There was a person specially in charge of supplies, but I do not recollect his name. Also in reference to the bottom of the fill at station 4010, 1 intended to say that in np case was it more than a foot or so below the water bottom that we found solid bottom —gravel and blue clay — and not rock, if I did stale it was rock. i. ■■*; ALLOWAY ^ Nlxoa'* Par- veyorshlp— BiiyinK MorseM »n«l FrclgUta Ink- W vos at llll'Ipt'K. Employed to buy liorscs for Qov- criiiiiont on coninil^isloii by Nixon. Rate of coTnnils- siou 2i pur cent. Horses bought for Nixon principally for Canadian Paclflc Railway. Relations with Nlzon commence In spring of 1875 VV. F. Alloway, sworn and oxumined : By the Chairman : — 59()S. Whoio Jo you live ?— At Winnipof,'. SnOtt. How lori<^ havo you lived horo ? — AI)out ton yours. 5910. Boforo that where did you ii'O ? — At Moiitroul. 5911. Ill what business wore you in Montreiil?— None ; I was at school. 5912. Had you not done any husinesH on your own aceoiini at thai time? — No. 5913. What husinesM did you enter into when you came here .'—l came here with the volunteers. 5914. Uow lon/j; were you engaged in that servieo ? — A year. 5915. After that service was over did yon enter into any iiusiness? — I did not go into any regular husiness. I did so many thin.;-t. 5910. What did you do? — I was buying and selling latuis and seijii and I was in the tobacco business for some time. That was the tirM regulai- business I was in. 51)17. I believe you were at one time employed to buy horsos tor ilir Government on commission? —1 was. 5918. Who employed you? — Mr. Nixon. 5919. Do you remember how many you bought in this wny /— 1 ,i,; not. 5920. In round numbers? — T could not f, y. I bought them one ;i! a time. I remember one lot of sixteen I bought. I may havo hoiiijlit loss than 100 altogether. 5921. Do you remember what was the rate of commission wliicli you and Mr. Nixon arranged ? — Two and a-half per cent., I believe : 1 an not ])0sitive 5922. Did this rate vary — sometimes a larger and sometimes a smaller amount — or was it generally on the same basis? — I do not think it varied. It is a long time ago. 5923. AVere you engaged on any other transaction connected with the Canadian Pacitic Hallway? — I was freighting sui)plies. 5924. Were these horses bought principally for the I'acific Railway, or for some other service ? — At the time my business was in that lino I bought many for the late Mr. McKay and for the police. 5925. I am asking if those you bought for Mr. Nixon were prin- cipally for the Pacific Railway ? — Yes ; 1 think bo. 5926.' Besides buying the horses and freighting, had you any other transaction on account of the Pacific Eailway ? — 1 do not think ho. 592Y. Did you know that Mr. Nixon was employed by the Govern ment to act as purveyor ? — 1 did. 5928. Were you well acquainted with him ? — Not at that time. 5929, At what time did your transactions commence with him on behalf of the Government ? — In the year he came here. I think he lovernniei :^ 38;] ALLOWAY Ni'Vcr imri'linsr>d H hoiNc wlllioui - ' net Ion lit' (!HkI- iii'cr nr NIxiin. V Xlxnii*N Pnr- vryorMhi|i - eamo here in tho fall ; tlio iioxt Hprin^ ut'tor he camo ; I think it whh **">•'»« ""•""'"• in thenpring of IST'j. .V.KJO. Ilttil you had inucli oxporionco in transact ioiiH with lior.so.s boloro yoii ontorod into tho ttrraugcmont with him ? — Yos. ')'X]\. Your Unovvlcdgo of horses was pi-otty good ? — I think so. yXSl. Would it be valuaMe to tho (Jovornmont ? — I think so. .¥j33. AVould you prohablv bo ahlo to know if there were defects in witness nt,'* expected, 1 suppose, that it would l)e of advantage io tho (iiivernineni that you sliould exorcise your jiulgmonl in purchasing the lioi'hcs? — That was what it was for. I never purchased a horse without thr siinclion of the engineer oi- Mr. Nixon. ')l).'5(i. Do you moan thatynu woulii ask Ihcni to exercise their judg- tneiit ill each case? — in c\i;.y cane. r)'J,)7. On ever}- horse? — Yes; sometimes there would bo haii w live togothei". Jf i met a man with a band we would go ir.to the bund aiiil jiii'k them out, and I would see whether they were sound or not, nr whether 1 thought they wore fit for the work or not. .WHS. And was this commission intended to cover your service in this way ?— Yes; the engineer or Mr. Nixon were cognizant of the |)rice all the time, and sometimes they wouUl say it was too liigh and would not take ihcin. When thoy were here they always inspected tho horsos. When a requisition came in for horses — tho engineer would re{|uisitioii llir (-0 many horsos — ho would always look at them before they wero i,'iveii to him. 5939. If not would Mr. Nixon exorcise his judgment? — Yos, that was in the case of one ; but if there wero four or tivo to be bought for a |iariy going west, tho engineer would always sa}- whether thoy Avero til for his work or not. C'liaiiii'tiT ')t' \vltnes-.'.s st'i'vlci'. 51140. Besides the freighting, in its ordinary sense, wore you not t^'«»''>''"»' '•»"*• -- - ' - -.. - Got I'outriict ' carry mail-*. engaged in carrying mails ? — 1 got a contract for a mail : that was for '^^^ vm\\\-acx to ihcPacitic Eailway. 5941. It was connoctod with the Pacific Kailway works ? — Y'os : it was lor their mail. 5942. Had you any place of business established, suv 'i as an office or shop in the city ? —Latterly I had. 5943. About what time?— I always had an oflSce; I always had a place to do my business, where I was to be found, and where my freighters coming in could find me. 5944. Separate from your residence ? — T had no residence ; I was not married. 1 lived in an hotel. 5945. But had you an office separate that was not connected with the place where you lodged ?--lt was where I lodged, because I always slept in the office. « mm ALLGWAY 384 ll^'iVT^: •if ?IlxAn'H Pur- veyorahip. ForKets first transactlou with Nixon. Office. 5946. Do you romomber at what time you first had an arrangement with Mr. Nixon ?~I could not tell you the year; if you know what yoar Mr. Nixon was sent up here, it was in the next spring. 5947. Do you rcniember what your first transaction with Mr. ^ixo,, was /—I do not. 5948. Do you remember where he lived at that time ? What part of the city ?— I do not know where he boarded. He had no family wiil, him at that time and was boarding somewhere. 5949. Had he any place of business ? — He had an office. 5950. Where was that? — It was past Donaldson's big store. It \va^ near the old land office, next door to the Eeceiver-General's old otlico-- Mr. McMicken's office. 5951. And where was your place of business then? — Upnenrtlie PaciiiC Hotel. 5952, time ?- Witness may have written out wages bills In Nixon's office, but never had any real connection with his office. Carrying Mails, Contract for carrying mails let by tender. May have spoken .to Nixon about ;tiiat contract. Did it happen that you and he had an office together at any -Never. 5953. Had he any desk or any right to occupy any portion of yom office, or had you any right to occupy any portion of his office ?— Xover; I may have written out wages bills in his office, but I never had any connection with Mr. Nixon's office, or he with mine. 5954. If you used his office it was only temporarily? — If we wore sending out supplies we would check them over in his office, and [ha is all. 5955. Were you ever interested in any office which he occupied ?- Never. 5956. Nor any person of your name? — Not that I know of; it:.i some time ago, but I am pretty positive that there was not. 5957. Do you remember this contract for the carrying of raailn, was it let by tender ? — By advertisement and tenders called for. 5958. Can you produce any account connected with that?— I produce an account for carrying mails to contracts 14 and 15. (Exhibit No. 101.) I did not get that contract from Mr. Nixon. I got it from Mr. liowan, I think. I think it was Mr. fiowan who advertised for the tenders. 5959. Were you told that you could get any information from any ol the officers connected with this worl; before you put in your tender ?- What kind of information ? 5960. Any kind of information ? — I went to the office and asked them what kind of service they wanted performed. 5961. Whom did you see? — It was Mr. Rowan's office that gave that information, I think. 5962. Had you any communication with Mr. Nixon about that con- tract ? — I may have spoken to him about that. 5.163. Do you remember anything that passed between you and him ? — No. 5964. Is C. V. Alloway any relative of yourd? — He is a biothei' of mine. 5965. Where does he live ?— Here. 385 ALLOWAY J)elonKlii)i to witness's brother. Nixon^N Par- 596*>. Were you interested in his business.' — No; any bufinoss he (lid for himself I was not interestei in it. 5067. No; probably not? — He and I were never in partnership. 5J()S. Were you interested in any house occupied by the engineer? — No, iQfiO Do vou remember that an engineer did occupy a house be-AnonKinwr longing to your brother .'' — los, 5970. Where was the house? — The house was on First street, in Winnipeg. I might say that the house now belongs to the Alloway c'siato, and my brother was attorney for it. 5171. Were you interested in that? — Xot at all. You asked me Nixon lived in a about the house of Mr. Nixon. Mr. JNixon resided in a house of mine 'ioii*<''<*'"wiinei-, 3. -with his family. lie lived in a private hou.se of. mine. 5D72. Where was that?— Next door to that one. 5!i(3. Where was this one ? — On First street or Fourth street. 59("4:. Can you tell when Mr. Nixon first became your tenant? — 1 cannot; it was when his family came here. 5975. Was your charge for that rent against the Government or affain,st Mr. Nixon ?— Against Mr. Nixon. '^ FreiKhtliifCa 5970. Do you remember whether your bargains for iVeighting were Barsrains lor anived at after the tenders being asked lor, or by private arrange- ar1-'i*;?^j a^' '"'"^ ment? — 1 never did any work by private arrangement. I may have ijone little bits of things, but never anything of any amount. 5977. Upon what basis would the contract be made, by the mile or !)}• iho pound ? — Tenders were advertised for for taking supplies to Batllefoi-d, Edmonton— naming the dilferent places — and hovv much foi'eiicli place. 5978. Do you know whether there was much competition on tho:«c ociasions when tenders were invited ? —Yes. 5979. Were there many different tenders put in? — I think so. 5980. Was there some arrangoniont between you and any one else belore tendering ? — Never. 59S1. Do you know whether there was any understanding at any time that the freight should be divided between you or any other person in any way? — Never; they never were divided in any way. 5982. Were your tenders always made independeutlv ? — Always. always mado ■^ "^ L J J Indopenaeuily. 5083. Do you remember at what rate you carried provisions to Rate for carryinpc */ •/ • * DrOViHK>n8 to tllti North- West Angle? — It depended upon whiit season of the year it was. North-wesi 5984. In November, "877? — In 1877, the year round it was about 82 a hundred. If it was a special occasion they would have to pay just what it was worth. In the fall or spring, if 1 did not have a con- tract, I generally charged them raoie. 5085. What was the value of the use of a team of horses a ilay, "bout November, 1877? — $6 or $7 a day; that is cheap. 5986. What would that include ? — Team and man and harness, vvith a spring-seated waggon. 5987. That would bo for carrying passengers? — Y'es. 25 ALLCWAY 386 jife; Team would carrv from 1,000 to2,U0« U.S. atlitv ll.") miles from Winnipeg to North-Wnst Five days, average time ol journey. Aixoit*8 Pur- vis voi*N 111 u-*^* Frt'igiitin{$. .">988. But for caiTyin.i^ freight ? — Tho same ; sometimes §1 ies< ft' it waH a light spring waggon it was more; but thete wugirous that we have here have nice spring seats on thcra, are just as cointort able, sometimes more so, than a carriage. 5989. About what weight would a team and vehicle tot- frei^rlit cany ? — If the roatls were at all good they would carry 2,0()() lbs., but if they were not they would sometimes caii'y 1,000 lbs.; the roads wore sometimes very bad. 5990. About how tar would a team carry that weight for a day?— Twenty miles. 5991. On good roads? — We never have any good roads here in the spring of the year, or any season, to the North-West Angle. 5992. About what rate did you carry freight for to the Xorth West Angle ? — From Pointo du Cheno it is the same as from here. Thou there are two roads. Some seasons when one is cut up we take the other. 5993. From here to the North-West Angle what is the road called ?— Jt is called tlie Dawson road; but it is impassable; you caiinot gei through it. 5994. What is the distance from here to North-West Angle ?—Alioiii 115 miles ; 110 it is called, but it is about 115 the way they go. 5995. Upon an average how many days would it take for a tonm to go from here to there, with a fair load? — Five days ; sometimes 1 have had them ten days on the road. 5996. I am spealiing of the average ? — About five or six days on an average. 5997. And for the return home empty? — Three da3's, empty. If the flies are very bad they wMll not go that fast. 5993. .So that the round trip coufd be made, as a rule, upon an aver- age of eight days? — That is a very small average, they could not average that all summer. They would not average it all summer, because they would kill their horses. In the summer time, when the roads are middling good, the flies are bad, and then when the road.s are bad the Hies are gone. 5999. ilow many days did you say it would take to make tho round trip from here to North-West Angle, going with a team loaded and returning empty ? — Eight to ton days. 6000. What would that be worth per day?— From «6 to «7. I speak of it in the* past, I do not speak of it now, as it is higher now than it was then; you could not got them to go now for that moDey. 6001. It is not so much the travelled route now ? — No. 6002. Taking the state of the roads upon the average, where, between half a ton and a ton, would you say would be tho ordinary weight of a load? — It is very seldom that we load up with half a ton, that ii for a team. Aveni^geweigi.t QQQ3. What would be the average weight of a load ?— From 1,700 to ■waggon from 1,700 1,800 Ibs. tol,8wlb9. Average of round trip from eight to ten (lays. 387 ALLOWAY KIxoii'm Pur* veyor«lil|»— 1)004. Ff^i" each 100 Ibn. you ;;ot $'2 ?— 1 did not froiglit ihat way ; riiiKUUnj;. ;hat was not my froightiri<^ at all. 0005. Did you not freight to North -West Angle in that way? — Not that way ; 1 always freighted with carts. (i006. Did yor not charge for one team to North- West Angle, lor section 14? — I have charged tor lots of teams. (1007. That was not for carrying freight? — It may have been freight. t)008. Did you never freight by contra(;t from hei-e tf) North-AV^est j^Pj^fleP — I did ; but never with waggons though, always with carts. (j009. What would bo a fair load for a cart?— 700 to 800 lbs. : 7<)0 t(>«i Hjs. n tan- load on the North-West Angle roal. ""' ''' '"''• COIO. How would a cart be drawn ? — With one ox or a horse, ox (reiierally. (iOll. There would not be a driver for each ox cart? — No. (;012. How many ox carts would one driver tQuniigc ? — Four to five 6013. What is it worth per day for an ox and cart?— 81.50 a day. I i!o not suppose 1 ever hired any by the day though. Yes, I did though. fiOU. Was there any general understanding what it was worth? — No; I got the contract and I either sent my own cattle and carts, oi' I hiiel some man to take it out at so much by the 100 lbs. 6015. Between man and man, what do you consider a fair return for $i.2.'> u fair return the use of an ox and cart for a day ?— $ 1 25. an"", "carl' fm-T'' GOIH. And you say that would dra^v about 700 lbs. ?— Yes. ^"^^ 1)017. What is a fair average lor a man who boai'ds himself? — $2 a day. (J018. So that a fair return for a man and five oxcarts and oxen would he about $8.25 ? — 1 suppose so. 0019. How long would it take a train of that kind to go to North- rJ/^::7A.'!LT>r*''°"** West Angle and return empty .'' — fifteen to twenty days. round trip from ° '■ ' J J WinnlpPKto 6020. Would that be a fair average ?— Fifteen day? would be ijo ▼eyorahlp— FrelKliting* "a^ifson^pemhina bei' one instance. Branch ttt»i 5.) ^^^9, Do jou remember at what rate ?— $1 .50 per day, 1 thinlc. 6028. Between what points?— On the Pembinu Bj-anch. I lemcin- per day. Hi rod 'eanis at $5 and $t) a day. CharRed MO for A)iir days on contract II. 6030. That would probably include the service of the man ?— Xo j; might not. Never to any extent. Perhaps a couple at one time. 6031. Had you any transactions in which you hired teara^, per (Jay — les. 60:i2. Do you remember at what rale ? — Yes, 86 a day fur heaw teams; I think 1 have let them have them for 85. 6033. Would it be at that rate if they were going Itack empty.''-. Yes ; every day they were away. 6034. Do you remember taking Mr. Blanchard to contract 14?— !({,) not. On looking at the account handed me, I do remembor. I took hiin there. 6035. What did you charge for four days? - $30. 6036. That would be higher than the rate you say would be a fyii rate ? — Yes ; I remember there wore some others there, the same. 60.^7. Was there not some others there for moving out some furriituiv ,' Why did you charge 87.50 a day for that? — The roads were very bii.i and Mr. Blanchard had to move his furniture. There was no roail, an I they had to go in the ditches and in the dumps — that was when the grade was half tini?hed, and it was worth 810. I quite Irequemly charged 87.50 a day for light teams for a buggy like that, with seab in it. » Wesf^xn di^"'?'"' ^^^^' ^ ^^® ^ charge on November 30th, 1877 : " one team to Xorih. day.s a't »(! .a'day!*^ West Angle, with provisions for A. Stewart, and man, nine days, at Sti ?' — Yes. 0039. Do you remember whether that was a passenger wagii;on?— 86 would be a heavy team, from the jMice ; I think it was u heavy team. 6040. Do you remember the transaction ? — I do not. 6041. Will you look at the entry of December 6tli, 1877, in tiieficcouiit, and read the charge ? — " To two teams to camp 4, contiucl 14, will; Briggs, eight days, at $6, 896." 6042. Do you make eight days at 86, $06 ?— Eight times six wouli be 848, and two teams at 848 would be 896. four daysVharged 6013. I want you to explain the deduction in the bottom oftlie down tdiwodays. ^cccunt ? — 1 charged four days, and he has cut me down two day.s, 6044. Did you agree to that ? — I suppose I agreed to it if it is in ilie account and took the money. 6045. Then on the 6th of the same month you make a similar charge ; did you agree to a similar reduction on that? — I suppose ihi'< first reduction of December 2nd is on the same account, lie would not allow my full charge. 6046. Would the next charge of December 6th be subject to tlie same reduction ? — It would appear so irom this account. Theso were 389 ALLOWAY Htxon'it Fnr- 1 1 r . .f Twy . 1 • 1 veyoiship— iiiV charges, and when 1 came in Mr. I>«ixon Haul it was an overcharge, Pr«!i«iiiin«. iinil he would not pay mo what I asked. (;()47. Did you agree to it ? — I di lor the bushed and band- ed carts. Price of bushed and banded carts now. \ fi065. About what would bo a fair rate for a man and liorse. For in. stance, if'thoy wore employed hunting up stray horses, would it ijo 83.50 to $4 per day ? — For one man and one horse ? 6066. Yes? — $1.50 for a horse and $2 for a man. 6067. That would be $3.50 per day ?— That would be about rii,'lit, 6068. Did you provide any carts for any surveying party ? — Yes. 606!). Was that under contract ? — I could not saj. If it was a couple or thi-ee, it was not under contract; but if it was many I suppo.se ;• •was. 60t0. Do you remember? — T do not. 6011. On the 27th June, 1877, you charge for sixteen busiied an J banded carts : was that a different kind of cart from the one ordinariiv in use? — What wo called " bushed " is a boxing with iron around tli.' axle, and " banded " is that the hubs are banded, .so that thoy will wa crack with the sun. 6072. Is there much difference in the value between bushed and banded carts and ordinary' carts ? — 82 or $8. 6073. Was there that difference at that time ? — Yes. 607-1. What was the price of the ordinary cart in tho.^e days ?— $15. 6075. Did that include the extra axles ? — No. 6076. Did you say that the ordinary cart cost $15 in those days?— Y'os. 6077. And bu-shed and banded would be how much extra ?— About S3, 6078. That would be $18 in all: your charge is $19.50? — You can now buy carts for $10. 6079. Did you know at the time whether there was any reason tor charging this $1.50 more than ordinary prices ?— Perhaps c*xrts were scarce at that time. This spring I have sold them at $J0 a piece foi' ctirts bushed and banded. 6080. What is the price for bushed and banded carts now ?— Fi-om about the same ; sometime.-* we put on ordinary hoop iron, which makes a difference in the price. 6081. What would be the diffei-ence in a cart without bushing or banding, and a cart bushed and banded, of the best kind ?— About $4.50. 6082. How do you make that up ?— There is $1.25 for the bushing, 6083. Do you mean that is what you paid for getting it done ?— The bushings are iron . 6084. Can you buy them ?— You can buy them at the foundry ; you can buy them separate to insert them in the hub to prevent the axles from wearing out. They cost $1.25, and it cost at that time $1 to put them in. 6085. What do they cost now?— $1.25, and 75c. for putting them in. 6086. What would bo the cost of the banding?— The binds would be worth $1. There are four bands. m 391 ALLOWAY (i(i87. ilow inucli would thoy welgli, the four bands? — About six jioumls. 6088. Is thnt what you consider the present value for bands to be, toi'one cart? — Yes. 6089. And what would they be worth put iu V — 50 cts. 6000. Whore is the lost of the $4 — that is about $>{.50 ? — There is $1.25 and $1 and 81.50; that is 34. No; it is worth $3.50. 6091. Why did you say $4? — Because I made a miscalcuhition. (;0!)2. What is the price of u bushel and banded cart now? — 1 do i;oi know, I have not sold any. I sold some this spring at 320. 609;^. What was a cart not bushed and banded worth this spring? — from $15 to Jib", 6094. Have they changel in price from spring until now very materially ?— Yes ; very materially. 6093. W^hat is a cart not bushed and banded worth now ? — You can luy tliom at 810 but they are no good. 6096. When you tell mo the value of a cart not bushed and banded isSlO, you say it is no good ?— It is no good tor freighting. 6097. Do you mean that you could buy one at 810 that is no good ? — Ves; an ordinary cart that will take an emigi-ant tifty miles or so you can get for that. 6098. What can you buy a good one for ? — I am selling some from $12 to 815. I have not sold one for less than 812. They cost me that last year, f099. Do you remember what the price of an extra axle was in 1;77 ?— Generally speaking it was ' Bfixnn** Piir> Cartg. Mlsi'ii'culation. 3^1. Carts iiof bushed aiKl band -d can be bad for .<10: a ffood one ul from »12 to JIV Priee of extra axle. 6100. Do you know why you chafed a 81.50 ? — I suppose they were higher at that time. If they are finished axles they are worth 81.50, but if they are ordinary axles hewed out with an axe they are worth Ijl, not fitted to the wheels. Those I supplied to the survey were all [tilted to the wheels before they were sent up. 6101. Do you remember whether those were so fitted ? — They were unfilled. 6102. Do you remember the value of cart covers at that time? — No ; j I do tot. I generally bought the cart covers, and put them in at the kime price that I paid for them. Sometimes cart covers are made long t and sometimes short. 6103. Besides the horses which you bought in the way you previous- llj described — that is when you were paid for your knowledge by a [(omRiission— did you sell any horses to the Government ',* — 1 have. 6104. Who fixed upon the value of them ? — The value was agreed [upon mutually. I asked him a certain price, and if he did not like it jhedid not agree to it, and if he did, he did agiee to it. 6105. Who was the person ? — Mr. Nixon. 6106. Do you remember selling him four horses in J'one, 1877 ?- Ido not remember. Horitv*. Provided liorsea for the Govern - luent by agree- ment with Nixon. .■^^old him horsea in 1877. 'i>: ALLOWAY 392 Ni>on*« Fur> vryorthip — Buyiiii; ilor«eN. bnylnt.' horses for Lucas. Ponyrht morn than four horses for IjUcus. Bold (o Nixon hut Jjuoas a^'r(■(.■(l on priof. 6107. Do you romombof having any contract with the Govoriiiiitiii on the fiubjeut of horsos —any written contract ? — Xot that I know of I lAuy have had, but I do not remember. 6108. Do you remember about what the price of a fair cart hor.-,v w^ in 1877 '.''—I do not. 6109. Do you remember arranging with Mr. Nixon about the saioot four cart horses to him ? — I do not. 6110. An account of June 27th, 1877, contains an item of four horses at 84o0 : does this bring to your mind any part of the arrangomont ? — AVho was the party ? 6111. Mr. Lucas ? — Yes; I can remember I bought more than fom^ for him at that time. Since you read that out I can remomljor (>iiiip|y- ing Mr. Lucas with horses. 6112. Who fixed the price 7 — Speaking from memory, 1 think ilioiv wore some of those horses supplied on commission, and otlior^ wep horses that I owned myself. There were some of them higher than others — they were saddle horses, I think. 6113. Look at the account and say what you remember about tha' transaction (handing an account to the witness) ?— (After looking ai the account) : 1 remember something about this now. 6114. Tell me how the price was arrived at? — Isold those horses: one to Mr. Lucas and one to Mr. Smith. They wei-e not cart hor.'^os. 6115. Did you describe them as saddle liorses ? — There were two saddle horses and one saddle horse — three altogether. 6116. Do you remember who fixei the price of them ? — J sold them to Mr. Nixon — it was Mr. Lucas agreed upon the price. I sold them to Mr. Lucas, and Mi-. Lucas fixed upon the price. I said how niiah I wanted lor the horses and he agrecckto it. PnrMIe horse for Marcus tiinlth. Two Keloeled hy lucas. iC^t 3STIc !Nixon never derived any advantage from transactions with ■witness. 6117. Besides these saddle horses^look at the other items ? — J-'ouioiin horses. 6118. Do you remember about the cart horses? — I do not remember about the cart horses. 6119. Who fixed the prices for the saddle horses? Do j-oii say Mr. Smith fixed the price of one? — If you say fixed the price 1 fixed the price. I asked him $:iOO for it, and he hail to agieo to it or do without the horse. 6120. Who made the bargain on the other side ? — It was ho. 6121. Do you mean Mr. Smith ? — I am not sure ; but I think ii wa- he, because I remember there was some dissatisfaction about it. He said he wanted a good horse — a first class saddle horse— and he got it. 6122. Is that Mr. Marcus Smith ?— Yes. 6123. Do you say the other two saddle horses were selected hv Mr. Lucas ? — Yes. 6124. Had you any arrangement with Mr. Nixon about these horses? —No. 6125. No arrangement of any kind ? — No. 6126. Did he derive any advantage from this transaction ?— He never derived any advantage or benefit from any transaction with me. 3!>3 ALLOWAY (jl27. I «iw asking about this ono ? — No ; never. (;128. Did ho derive no advantage from your dealing in those horses with tho Government ? — No ; except that lie got a good article. (1129. Mr. Nixon ? — The Government. (;i30. 1 am speaking of Mr. Nixon individually ? — No. b'l,']). Had you any conversation with him at any time about suppiy- ;iiL' these horses to the Government, besides bargaining for the price ? -N^o; I suppose he told me that they wanted the horses, and to look them up for ihom. 11132. Had you any private transaction with Mr. Nixon on his own ;,e(oiint ? — Nothing; except house rent. 11133. Was that house rent which the Government ought to pay or which ho had to pay? — He paid mo. (1134. Did you make out an account for the (Jovernment? — Never. 0135. AVhat is that item (pointing to tho account) ? — " Two harness ImrscH for buck-boards." ()13G. What does that moan ?— It means a bettor class of hor.>^os. 0137. Is a buck-board a bettor kind of vehicle? — Yes. •1138. What is it for?— For carrying passengers. iil3M. Do 3'ou remember anything about these buck-boards — who, for iii>tancc, arranged the price for you ? — No ; Mr. Lucas agreed to tho |,ncoofall these horses. iiUO. Do you know where Mr. Lucas lives now ? — I do not. IJ141. Do you remember purchasing a lot of eiglitoen horses for the (iiwernment ? — No. i)U2. Do you remember purchasing a lot about that number?—! ]iiia'hased several lots. OHS. There is an account of yours dated in Ma}-, 1875 ? — Docs it say wlio they weie for and what pa: tj' ? 0144. Xo?~WJio is the account to? fiU5. Look at it yourself (handing it to witness)? — (After looking lit the account) : I do not remember. 014G. There is an account of yours, May 6th, 1875, for the purchase of ei,'hteen horses, do you remember purchasing that lot ?— No, 1 do not; kit 1 may have purchased them. 1 think 1 do reraenibor something :ibmil it. 0147. What do you remember? — I remember that I purchased them. 0148. How did you come to purchase them? — I was ahked by Mr Nixon to purchase that lot of horses, I think, and he and I purchased them together. I rendered the account, he agreed to the price, and I got JO much commission. If I could find out wliat survey they were foi", I lOuld tell you more explicitly. Nixon** Pur- vryorshlp- Hiiyiug llorNf*. No prlvn'o triitis- il(!llOll Willi NIxou fxccpt hoii.st' rent. Two linrnf'ss li()r8(;N for huolc- l)OHrils. prli'o of lilt! iiorsos. E1iiig |:, iiifif;nioiit upon the price for which each of these horses wa,-> l„iight ?— Ves. (IITI. Can you tell mo why, instead of putting down tho i)ricc that •lis 1 mid for each horse, vou put them all together, averaging the h" tiv'cragc prici; -iji^^e ?— Ht'cause some horses were more valuable than others. Kxplanntion why ii liil of lior>f.s wore put diiwn lit liorst's were iiiuro Vlllliullll' tllllll 01 Ihts," (1172. That would not affect the question ; I suppose you coiiM put li.o the He])arate price for each horse? — Ves, (il78. There was no necessity to average them to show that they (Ostdirt'erent prices ? — No. b'174. Can you tell mo, if Mr. Nixon know and exorcised his judg- inieii' upon each horse and each price, why you lumped them : calling I them eighteen horses at 890? — Because that was the price paid for tho d^htcen, and ho said to make tho account in that way and he would agree to it. HI75. I suppose the length of the account would not be a disadvan- Nixon and wit- iiage?— It might be at that time. At that time 1 had not a book- u"^? ui«y"f.m.id Ikeepi'i", and i did not keep books; I only kept a pocket memorandum be put down at, I (it them, and he knew the prices of them, that they wore so much, and S"'"' "• t""^'""- Ue averaged them at $90 a piece. 617'>. But was not Mr. Nixon accustomed to keeping books ? — He liil uot keep my books. 6177. But he kept the books of the Governmont, and was there any I loasoii why he should not have a record of the price j)aid for each [horr' ^ '•'""»• IthecertificationbusinesH was an institution of a later date. 6180. Do you moan at that time that he paid accounts without any person certifying to them ?— When he purchased a purchase like that, that he was thoroughly cognizant of himself, ho did not certify be- |iau' vfyomlilp— Buying lIorNCHi Ex lent of wlf- ncHs'H (lcillltlt{ with Nixon on liclialf of (iovcrii- Tricnt. f'lO.lKdXir nioie. ♦)183. Yo»> have h:id very largo dealings with him on hi^linlj' of tU (lovcrnment ? — Yen. <)184. Have you any itloa to what extent ? — I Iinvo not. OlSf). IlaH it been more or Iohs tlian $10,000 ? — More. Cmi 820,000 ?— More. «;187. 830,000?— I think more. t;i8H. $40,000?—! think so. <)'I8!». You aro not certain whether it wa-^ over $40,0UO?— -I |.,jyi| nf)t 8ay. filtli). In dealing to thatextent witli you it is probable tli;it you r['\iu:.\ considerable advantage?— Yes; I did. (!19l. It was an object to you to have a person deuling wiiii vin on behalf of the (lovornmcnt to that extent? — Yes; I HUpp()f4(! it ^,y■^^ ClO'i. Have you any doul)t about it? — No; I have no drjulji ijiit Anothrr lu'connt iiul ill (It'tiiil. At tliis tinii> kf'pt only 11 nienioran- (Jlllll ticcouiil of liorse transac- tions. romrnenced to keep t)ooks the fall lifter Nixon came hero for freighting. may have made more out of soreicbody else. fJlHH. Did you ever explain to Mr. Nixon thai it was an olij.Mi you ? — No. an account) is not in detail and not certitied, but still paid ? — I carinoi, ThiH account was rendered and paid, and 1 got all the money — oveiy cent of it — and kept it too. 6197. Do you remember the trans.nction now after loolsing :it tlii- account? Has it brought any part of it to your mind ? — No ; 1 raniiot say that it has. 1 do not remember it distinctly at all as a sepante transaction. 204. You commenced to keep books ? — Y'es. G20.5. You sa}' that the only memorandum of this sort of ti-ansaction would bo in a private book of your own ; what would you make any entry in your pri pate book for ? — A pocket memorandum : " horse, siicb I a price " — that vi all. 397 ALLOW AY '■'I'V a :it tlii- 1 rannot sopiinle nie'^-Xo, |)t a son . 1 ha.l :. !Hb)llC«S| ()k> siiuel iiii;- wi 'iinsiiction make any I orso, sncb j (Ijfld. IV» you mean in a pockot book or a pockol diary? — A pockol oiary. tljO". Wimt would bo your object in kouping it thoro '/—To romombor it. (i2()8. Was liioro any object in roinornbering it? — Xono; oxtopl to ihai'go fur it. i;jt)!i. Wiioro aro thoio booka now? — 1 do not know whoro it is now. f;2IO. That pockot book in which you put an entry of your ])ricoM ? _l(io not know ; I u.sod thorn up — oiio ovory nix months or ho. Sill. I>ii'r.soiis. Another account May iTtli, IH7.5, about wtilcli lio cannot remember anything, >t FT Wmmmm^'^- h.UJCWK^ 398 Klxon'8 Pwr- veyomhlp— BnyiuK HorN#H. Cannot explain why the actual price of each liorse is not given instead of an average price. In fnct witness boufiht horses on helialf of tlie CJovernment who got the advantage when a good bar- (;ain was made. Fnid in cash. Another account. J;!:W for two hor8ts. Nixon look pai-t In purciiase. Never happened tliat a man would he willing to sell horse for less price than wit- ness would name to Nixon. 0229. Do you know whether any record was kept by him oi- l»y yoini the price of each horse ? — I do not know anything about him ; I knowl kept a record of it for the time beini^. Of course 1 must liavo kept % record. ()230. Can you i^ivo any reason now why this account is mado out in a himp sum, averaging the price of each hoi'se, instead of givinc thp price of each horse in detail ? — 1 cannot. 6231. Do you know whether Mr. Nixon has overstated thiit you never boui^ht hor^es on commission ; that they were bought for tlio (roverii- ment out and out, without reference to what you paid ? — I do not know. 0232. The fact wa'. 'ou bought them f )r the benetit of the Grovern- ment, and they were to get the benetit of the price if you made a "ool bargain ? — Yes. 0233. Have you and Mr. Nixon conversed about these horse ti'ans- iictions much ? — Never; except at the time when we talked ubou; them ; but since, never. 0231, Would you buy those horses from farmers or from sti angers as a rule, or do you know ? — From both, 6235. "What kind of dealing would it be: would they take goods from stores, or how would they i)e paid ? — In cash. 0236. Invariably ? — Alwa^'s ; I never paid any other way. 0237. Look at the account now handed to you, dated May, 1875; i^ that your hand writing (handing an account to witness) ? — Yes. 0238. Do you remember anything of this transaction in which yoi chai'ge$.i30 for two horses ? — I do not remember. 023 >. Do you suppose it was accomplished in the same \v;iy a- the others? — Y'es. 02-40. That the price was agreed to by Mr. Nixon before the bargain was completed ? — Yes. 0241. And he took part in the purchase in that way ? — Yes, 0242. And would it sometimes happen that you would see the sellers of the horses first and arrange about the ))rice, and then take them I) Mr. Nixon to have the price approved ? — No. 0243. Before the price of the hurse was named between you and the seller, Mr. I^iixon would take pa:-t in the purchase? — I would not say that always. I would meet a man on the street, and say : " How much will you take for your horse ? " and I would siy : " Come along." 0244. I ask you if you and the sellers would not sometimes talk about the price, and if you would not then take them to Mr, Nixon? — We would talk about it, and then go to Mr. Nixon. 6245. Did it sometimes happen that a man would be willing to sell the horse lor a less price than you would name to Mr. Nixon?— No; never. 6246. I notice in an account of May 7th, 1875, in favour of C. V, Alloway, veterinary surgeon, you sign a receipt. Is that your signature (handing account to witness) ? — Yes. 0247. Were you authorize I to act for him in such matters ?— Yes; flometimts. V,' 399 ALLOWAY 0248. Were you iutorested at all in it? — No. ^'2\d. At this time, in 1875, had you command of much fund.s your- jelf?-Yos. t)250. Were they funds thatwere provided for the purpose of carrying m this business of buying and soiling horses? — Whatever I wanted lundsforl got all I wanted. i]251. 1^0 you know why those purchu-ses of individual horses were liotpaid for direct to the seller by Mr. Nixon, instead of by yourself 1, tlie tirst instance and afterwards by Mr. Nixon to you ? — I suppose it was to pave the making out of cheques and accounts, as nine; tenths of those people cannot read. They were half breeds, and t'^yy cannot read. G252. Is that all the reason you have ? — I think it is a very good one. It is one of the principal reasons. (1253. That they cannot read ? — T think that is the principal reason -the making out of accounts — and Mr. Nixon asked me to pay for ihera. 6254. In another account of May 27th, '875, you have charged for a lay mare for section 14: do you remeinbor anything about that trans- ii.tion? Look at the account (handing it to witness). — 1 do not remember. ()255 You think the reason why Mr. Nixon did not pay by chec^uo [was because the sellers could not write ? — I suppose so. 6250. Did he never pay acoountt- to anybody who could not write — a^fiir as you understand ? — I suppoje ho did. 6257. Why could he not have dene it in this instance as well as in [the others ?— He could have done it. 6258. The half-breeds of this couatry, you say, formed the larger [portion of the individuals who sold those horses? — Yes. 6259. Do they own many horses, as a rule — the half-breeds ?— Not I LOW. 6200. Did they then ?— Yes. 62GI. What kind of horses ? — Good hoi'ses. Indian horses. Largo [lioi'tes. 6262. When you paj'' large horses, do you moan imported from [other parts of the Dominion, or native breeds? — Native. 6263. Large animals of the native breeds ? — Large and small. 6264. As a rule are Ihey large horses — the native breed ?— No. 6265. What Avas an average-sized animal of the native breed worth pn those days?— $100. 6266. Was that about the ordinary pi ice? — Sometimes $250, and ometimes $75. 6267. I am speaking about the ordinary price? — For a cart horse or ' saddle horse ? 6268. For an ordinarily fair horse for general purposes? — For a enera! purposes horf-e, $150. Wixon's Pur- v«»yo'8hlp — B1lyl■l^ Hurtief). Explains wJiy horses not pal>t for direct hy Nixon. Tlilnksfheroasou Nixon . ll^iO for aKeneral purpose horse. ALLOWAY 400 111;^ ! ■ ▼cyoraliip— IliiylDfi; H«r«eit. Account, horses *15()aii(l comnils- «ion $7.50. 0269. What would cart horsos* of tho native breed be worth at [\\x date ?— About $90. 6270. Do you remember anything about this bay mare for which yon have charged $125 for section 14? — 1 do not. 6271. In an account of June 10th, 1875, you have charged tor on. horse, $150, and for your commission, $7.50; do you remember unv thing about that ? — No. 6272. Do you think that was purchased in the same way, throu^'li Mr. Nixon and yournelf exercising a joint judgment upon the price ?~ Yes, his Judgment upon the price ; and my judgment as to whether hj was worth it or not if he was sound. 6273. That would be as to the pi'ice if you were exercising Jiulcmeiit as to whether he was worth it? — Yes. 6274. Then you both discussed that (question ? - Yes. MOBERLY. Kxploratnry Surveys — Partita SAT Kngineer ami oontraotor. EnteredCanadlan Pacific Railway service In J871. Km ployed as Dis- trict Kngineer lor surveys through mountains from Shuswap Lake to Kdmonton. An Engineer in charge of both parties and both subordinate to witness. Fleming wlt- ness'tf superior otlluer. Winnipeg, Wednesday, 22nd September, 18So, AValter Moberly, sworn and examined : By the Chairman : — 6215. What is your occupation ? — Engineer and contractor. 6276. Where do you live ? — In Winnipeg at present. 6l77. Have you been employed on an}' of the works of the Cauadia'! Pacitic Railway ? — Yes; I entered the service in 1871, and went oiii with the tirst survey. I came over from the western side from I'tali at the time the road was tirst started, and took part in the survov> through the Ilowse Pass. 6278. From whom did you got your appointment?— From ili. Dominion Government. 6279. How was it communicated to you ?— ^3y Mr. Fleming. 6280. In writing ? — Yes ; I came to Ottawa and he gave me tiio appointment there. 6281. In what capacitj' were you employed ? — As District Ivigineir for those surveys through the mountains Irom Shuswap Lake t' Edmonton. It was not particularly mentioned to Edmonton, but it was understood to be in the direction of Edmonton to where we coulJ get through the mountains. 6282. Had you charge of other parties that year?— I took t'.vj parties up, S and T. These were the survey parties. 6283. Was there an engineer in charge of both these parties ?—Yej. 6284. And both of these parties were subordinate to you?— Yes, 6285. Had you the principal charge of all the surveys in Britis Columbia at that time? — No; Mr. Roderick McLennan wont up tliej North Thompson. 6286. Was he your superior officer ? — No; he was entirely inJepen- dent of me. 6287. Who was your superior officer? — Mr. Fleming. 401 MOBERLy Exploratory SnrwyHfH.C— Pl»rtl«K M. A: T. Then there was no othcer in charge of ull tlie siirvey-s in Nooffl.erin Hritish Columbia ?— No ; we were entirely independent then. HHUshCoiumbilii 6281.'. llftil you charge of the organizing of botii parties S and T ? -Yes. 6290. What was the size of the party S? — I think, exclusive of the sizo of party s. packers, there were twenty-two or twenty-four men, and others were ent'a'^ed occasionally. We had a great deal of trail-making to do. 6291- How many subordinate officers would there be to that party? -Tlie engineer in charge, transit man, levellc : , assistant leveller, rod man two chain men, and a commissariat otHcer. 6292. Would the last be labourers, and men of that class ? — Yes ; there was a commissai iat officer and a clerk. Sometimes some of the other officers acted in place of clerk ; the assistant leveller or rod man. 6293. Except those persons whom you have described, the parties ffOiiW bo composed of persons who had no experience in the business ? -No ; except good choppers. 6294. But peculiar to explorations ? — Yes. 6295. Wore your axe men paid higher wages than pack men ?— No ; Axe menistna pack men were paid higher wages than the others. The axe men were fronfjayto fSHVa"^ ilie least paid ; they w^ere paid $40 a month, and the pack men were "i'^"*!'- ranging from $50 to $90. 6296. That would be besides board, of course? — Yes; avo boarded the men bet^ides, and all expenses. 6297. Were there any animals attached to that party S ? — Yes ; we Party s ii.ad a had. I forget how many now, but I think 1 bought the fii-st year a or^irur-ty aninlais train from the Hudson Bay Co., and I think there must have -more bought. heen eighty or ninety animals, or something like that ; after which 1 tought more. 6298. What kind of animals? — Mules and horses. 6299. At present I am speaking of party S? — Yes; J think the other party had no animals. 6300. Do you say you bought more than eighty animals that a mimber of ^ season?—! bought a good manj- more animals. I bought a number 11], MrLennau' of animals that season to help Mr. McLennan, and Mr. Selwyn, fp'/„?f'^''^'} the manager of the geological survey. I bought them at Kamloops to assist them to get otf, but 1 forget how many animals I bought. These were for the North Thompson altogether ; they did not belong to my pty. I think they were all paid ior by me by drafts from nie on i*ivi- Pnrtjr S. 1871. Report I'd Feb, 24tli, 1872, tf) Flcinlug. ArraiiKeinonta for liniiiilieit. Bill for supplies to \w ready for party, $o,iKK). Made arraiiKe- incnts to liave Other iiiippllcs at Yale and ICani- loops. G303. But in 1871, in connection with tho Canadian Pacific IJailwar' — J had nothing to do with it. I wont over it in the winter after I m,t ck. ^ 6304. T believe a report from you to Mr. Fleming, dated Februai'v 72, appears in tho Hpocial report of 1872, describing your oporation-- back. 187 ol 1871 ?— Yes G305. Who had charge of tho furnisliing of supplies to party S, ovei the season of 1871? — Before 1 left Ottawa, I asked Mr. Flemiiur [,, telegraph — I think I drew the telegram myself — to have .siippliov forwarded from Victoria to Wild Horse Ci-eek, a mining camp. It w;i, what was generally known as the Kootenay mining camp. Those siiii. plies were delivered to me at Wild Horse Creek. The}' wci-e fiirnisheit through a house in Victoria that used to be Henderson iS: Baiiiaby they made arrangements and had a contract drawn out with a maii named Chisholm. G306. Do I understand that you merely decided upon the quantitio, and that some otie else ordered them from these parties ?— I geiicrallv gave the quantities and ordered them that year, 6307. Did you select a person from whom the supplies were orilored';' — No; I did not know who supplied them. 6308. Then your responsibility was merely to give the quuntitics' —Yes. 6309. And your superior officer decided from whom to order ?—Xn; I think he took my advice who to order them from. I forget now who ho telegraphed to, but I think it was Mr. Trutch. It was only forii small quantity of supplies to be ready for my party when we got up there. 6310. For what number did you order supplies at that time, and.sutti- cient for what period ? — I think the bill came to 85,000, or something about that. 6311. Do you remember tho distinguishing number or letter of tho party?— Party S. 6312. And for what period ?— It was simply to have supplies goiiiir on there until I got other supplies on. 6313. Did you decide then what time it Avoukl be necessary to have them there, so as to enable you to get other supplies ? For instance, if you furnished supplies for no more than three days, it would probably not be sufficient to enable you to get other supplies afterwai-d.s?— I knew the country very well, and knew where I could draw ray supplier from, and J made all my calculations so that I could have other supplie-* at Yale and Kam loops, which I bought myself to carry my party through that year — through the winter and into the spring, until I could get further supplies up. 6314. Did you order supplies to be placed at this initial point for a period long enough to enable you to get future supplies ? — Yes. iJ315. Do you remember how long that period was estimated to be? — Until I could get a pack train from Colville in, and I think it might probably have been for two or three months. ticular iia rt 403 MOBERLY for party lor tliree tnonlliR. neii from Victoria ami New Wi'Bt minster Sclocifil cnsjilnoer In clmri;!' of l)Liit.\- h. l<'X|»lorntory Survey, B.C.— I*iirlv N. (i^^K). Then, according to your recollection, do you think tluil supplies sii|i|»ii«Hfiirnish- werefa'"Jii^hedMit Wild Jlorse Crook sufficient for this party for two or ['J.^^'j.YuIhci'.uT*' three mor.ths ? — i think so. 6;il7. DiJ yo'i S^ to Wild Ilorso Creek ? — Ve.s. ()318. Where did you get the men to make u[) your party ? — Most of pa'lV.v "/'oni^ni them in Victoria, and some at New Westminster. t)3lt). Did you take any of your party from Ottawa ? — Only my ,,,aiiiii?s;u'iat officer. 6320. Who was he ? — A. 8. Hall. There was another, my lovelier, who joiiH'd mo out there. He wont aci-oss with me, l»ut I did not take him. lie came from Ottawa ; but he was sent out, without any par- ticular jiai'ty to join. There wero three or fi.uir. iii'll. Bid you select the engineer in charge of party S? — Vo-. 11322. And your transit man, lovellei-, assistant and i-od man ? — Ve>i 1 selected them all in British Columbia, b'323. You say you got most of them in Now Westminster? — .Most of the men at Victoria, anil a few at New Westntinstcr. 1)324. How far was it from this point at which you engaged them to the point at which your supplies were — in round numbers? — L thitdc it must have been over 8U0 or 900 miles. But I did not follow the party. (132."). Did the party ])i'oceed about the distance that you named 800 Count lytniveiiea III' !IOO miles? — No; they did not ti-avel as far as 1 did. They went "^''''" sirai<^ht across fi'om Hope in a more direct line, along what we call the siiiithern boundary of the Province. i;32(). How far did they travel to get to those supplies at Wild Horse Creek? — I should think they must have ti-avelloJ about 500 miles fiom Hope. Then they travelled nearly ItiO miles from New Westininsto)', hesides that, by steamer. •1327. Would there bo no necessity for furnishing them with supplies oil the steamer? — No; I paid for their meals there. 6328. Prom Hope to Wild Horse Creek, how were they provided with supj)lies? — I bought some at Victoria and a few at Hope, and setii them on a pack train that went with them, I think J might have iiniight a few from the Hudson Bay Co,, too. 6329. What was the size of this pack train? — I think there must Fifty or si.\ty have been about fifty or sixty animals. I aflervvards got an order for * "tfJJ"'"^ '" '''"^'*^ some more from the Hudson Bay Co., on one of their posts at Similkomeem. ()330. Were these fifty part of the eighty which 3'ou say you bought tor that party that season?— Yes ; I think I had the order from Mr. Finlayson, the chief factor at Victoria, for them. He was in charge of the company's business out there at the time, l!331. Did the party proceed to Wild Horse Creek? — Yes, 6332. Do you know when they arrived there? — They arrived there .\rriveii at wild aday after t did. I overtook them a few miles out ; it was, \ think, in sei'.'iTn?bcr,^87i, September some time. 26i • • T MOBERLY 404 .,-., 41*.,. S!x|iloratory Mitrvay, H.C. Party S. 1871. Most of HuppHes bought on respon- slbllltyofwltnesH. Buying for his own party fS), party T and McLennan and Selwyn's parties. Bea<;hed Wild Horse Creek a •day before party. Seeking a Pa*i8. Takes party S to the Howse Pass. Object: to find ou whether Howse Pass could be made available for a railway. 6iVyS. Wheu did they start from Hop , ? — In August — I think the first week in August. m 6334. Do you think they were somewhere about a month on the road or not as much as two months ? — Not two months ; they were over ;i month on the road. G335. Were the supplies for that trip bought by you upon your own responsibility ?— I think most of them wore ; there may have been a few bought in Victoria by Mr. Watt. I was buying not only for m^ own partj^, but for these other parties, and trying to hurry the paitie- oft' as fast as we could. 6336. You mean party T and McLennan's party? — Yes, and Mr. Se|. wyn's. T bought a good many, and Mr. Watt bought a good many, for ray own party; also for McLennan's and Selwyn's parties ; and these quantities were afterwards separated and distributed amongst the different parties. 6337. Then, by taking another road yourself you reached Wild Horse Creek u day or so before the party arrived ? — A day before ; 1 * ->,v(lle(| fast with three Indians. Of course the pack train only made an average of from twelve to fifteen miles a day. 6338. Then you made to the rendezvous as fast as possible ? — Yes. 6339. How did your supplies hold out on that trip ? — Very well, 6340. As far as you know they had sufticient? — Yes. 6341. Had they any to spare when they arrived ? — Yes. 6342. Did you remain with party S ? — Yes. 6343. What work did 2)artyJS undertake ? — I took them down Wild Horse Creek to the Howse Pass by the source of the Columbia. 6344. Was this a party for making a bare exploration ? — An explo- ration and instrumental survey. I took a party up there because the only doubt I had with regard to the line of railway from Burrard Inlet to the North Saskatchewan was the grade over the summit on the Rocky Mountains to the west side to the Columbia Eiver. 6345. I do not catch your meaning about that doubt ? — I had explored all this country before for the Government of the country; on the Columbia Eiver, the Okanagan, the Thompson, and the lower Fiaser Rivers and other southern portions of British Columbia. 634'^ Did I v.nderstand that you thought it might be necessary tn lake a railway from Wild Iloi'se Creek to Howse Pass on the east,>ide ot the Columbia River ? — No ; it was to -^et to the Rocky Mountains on the west side. On the west side in that portion the slope was steep. 6347. Was that with a view to ascertaining whether Howso Pass could bo made available for a railway through it? — Yes. 6348. Then was it considered necessaiy, in order to ascertain thi>, that an instrumental exploration should take place between Wild Jlorse Creek and Howse Pass ? — Y'es ; I recommended it myself. 6349. Was that for the purpose of ascertaining the height ?— The height, and if we could get a practicable line for a railway down the mountains. 405 MOBERLY 6350. Then did I understand that you thought it mi^ht bo necessaiy to bring the railway down that line? — Certtiinly. When I left the employment of the Imperial Grovernment, Mr. Trutch and mywelf had lometo the conclusion that the line for the main railway was settled hy the Valley of the Frasor lliver, from JJurrai-d Inlet to Kamloops Lake. 1)351. That rou considered as a settled projected lino ? — Yes. 1)352. Then do you consider that a lino might be made from Kani- luoiw through Howse Pass? — Yes ; our doubt then was that from Kam- loops Lake to get into the Saskatchewan country— which was the lietter pass to take : the Yellow Head Pass or the llowse Pass. 6353. I>o I understand that the object of this instrumental survey by party S, in 1871, was to ascertain the feasibility of Howse Pass? — Yes. 1)354. A.nd you say in order to arrive at an opinion on that point it was desj'rable to make an instrumental survey of the way from Wild Horse Craek northward ? — No ; no instrumental survey was made there at all. G355. Then the progress of that party which you have described from Wild Horse Creek to Howse Pass was not an instrumental survey ? — No. (!35 ). Was the progress only for making a trail, or was it exploration as well ?— Only to make a trail to get our supplies forwarded by. 6357. Then what was your objective point ? — We were going to Howse Pass. 6358. How long did it take your party to go from Wild Horse Creek tolIowsoPass? — I got there on the 2nd of October, myself, and the (itbers kept coming in as fast as possible. Of course we were forwarding supplies up until the snow came on, and winter stopped us and we coukl not forward any more. 635f>, Did you proceed ahead of the party ? — Y''os. 6360. With what number of your party would you be ahead of the main body ? — T took three or four Indians and went across the mountains into North Saskatchewan ; I took none of the members of my party. 1)361. Then you separated from the party ? — Yes. 6362. Leaving them to follow the line which you had indicated ? — Yes ; and open the trail. 6363. Was the principal object of that party to make a practicable trail, so as to get your supplies up to Howse Pass, or in theneighbour- hiial of Howse Pass ? — Yes ; at that time. 6364. Then you and your detached party went as far in a north- oasterly direction as it was necessary to reach the North Saskatchewan ? —I went to Kootanie Plain on the North Saskatchewan. 6365. Would you call that progress of yours and your small party, exploration? — It is described, I think, on page 32 of the Blue Book of Mr. Fleming's special report for 1872. I considered it exploration. 6366. Was that as far in a north-easterly direction from Howse Pass I »!! you proceeded that season ?- -Yes. 6367. Did you return ? — Yes. Exploratory Survey, B. €.— Party N. 8ff kliiK a raNM. Triitch and wlt- I1CM8 uon.sl(l(;red lino for main railway settled by the valley of the Fraser Plver from liiirrard Inlet to Kam- loops. Tlie only doubt which the more' deslrabUf pass Yellow Head or ITowso, No InHtrnmeutul survey made. Howse Pass an objective point.. Witness took three or four Indians and cross- ed the mountains into North Has- katchewan, leav- ing them to fol low Indicated Hue and open trail- Went to Koot- anie Plain on North Saskatohe> wan. ■ft., • -■# ^T^ MOBERLY 406 ,'♦41' Exploratory Nurvey, B. C— Party S. Jleturnotl to mouth olUIiif- berry Klvt^rwhhJh llowb llirongli HOWSO I'tlHS. Am])lo Buppllos. iiouKht all tho su))plu's thi'.v hilit Ht h'ort ("olvlUo " from cvcry- Imily." Winter ol 1^T1-T•_' pnssfd liy parly In n('i:,'lilir iirliood «)]■ lloWsio Tass on the <'i>!nnilMa KivtT. Trail opened by Blaehcrry Kiver and I rial lino run to siuninit of mountain. . -«■ Party did not work durlnir heavy part of •winter. G3G8. On tho same route? — I returned on the same routo to il,,. inouth of the Blueberry, which flows through tho Howso Puss. G3GD. Did yon find party S ? — Yes ; I built a depot ai'd wintered th« party there. (J3T0. Had tho supplies which had been forwarded to Wild II,,K' Crook boon sufficient for the ]»arty during that season ? — Y'es. (5371. Were they sufficient for tho whole winter? — Yew; ;i ir,,,,! m;my of them lasted us well into the spring. (J372. You do not mean that tho supplies that you hud i)rovi(it;,| originally at Wild Horse Creek lasted into tho spring? — No. 03(3. Then you hud provided other supplies during the cieason lo have sufficient for the winlor? — Yes. 0374. Do you reniember Irom what source you obtained those si)pplie>? — .Most oi' tlicin wore boui;'!it at Fort Colville, from Openjicuncr \ J'lown. In fact I bought all the supplies they hud tlierc from ovoiy- body. (5375. How were those siipplios transported to your party ?—Tliev Were paclced up. 0.']70. Did you detach a jjurt}- from your main body to go fbr iIiom' i^ui)plies? — 1 went there myself; my party did not go to l^'orL Colvilk at all. 0377. Did yon eiigap;e otlior jiarties to transport those supplies from thai jjoiiit ? — Yc-> ; I urrauged lor tliUt. 0378. Did lliC}' reacli their i!e.>lination sufely ? — Yes. 0370. Then tlic winter of 167 1-72 was passed by your pariy in ihf neighboui'l'ood of liowse Pass? — Yes. 0380. On tho Columbia lliver ?— Yes. 03S1. Js thoio aisy name to that particular locality? — Wc usually called it Columbia Kivor Depot. 0382. Do you I'tmomber about what time of the first season your pai'ly reached liowse Pass or the neighbourhood ? — The 2nd of October; 1 thinic that was aliout tho date. 0383. Did they proceed with any work ? — Yes. 0.j84. What wnik? — Opeiii'ig the trail by the Blaeberry liivor, and running a tiial lino to tho summit. 038,5. What distance did ihcy make that trial line ? — I think it was thirty-seven miles, 0380. Did the sii!,e of party S remain about the same during the season as at tho start ? — Yes ; they could not get out. 0387, About how long were they engaged on that work making' n trial line ?— Until tho .snow set in ; that would be about tho beginning of .Noveinbor, when the snow came on in the mountains. 6388. Did the party remain at work after that? — No; not during 1 tho heavy part of the winter. They commenced early in the spring j again. 407 MOBERLY (J38y. During tho time, when the psuty woi'c not at woi-k, was it .liminishcd in size ? — No ; wocouUl not get them out. I took one man ilinvn with ino to Victoria; he is tho only man who left. (i3!)0. Then j'ou left the main body of tho party at Columbia River Depot for tho heaviest part of the winter, merely remaining there for tiitiiio operations, but not doing any work ?— Yes. (JSt'l. Do you say that the whole party was somewhere between twenty and thirty ? — Yes; but of course some went (town wiih the iiniiniilM to the head of the Columbia. J forget how many there were, but I f^upposo there would probably be eight or ton in charge of the pack trains. G302. Was that because fodder was more plentiful there? — Yes; it was !iu open country and they could feed well, and the upper country was so thickly timbered that there was no feed at all. (j39r{. Were these animals and these packers available for sul)sequent operations? — Y'^es. 6304. Have you any idea of tho expense incurred in wintering the puity duriiii.'; the time that they were not at work ? — 1 think that if 1 R'liienibcr aright the gross amount, of everything that ] paid up to the cud ol that year, from the 20tli of July to the end of the year, was 857,OUO. (1395. Is that up to tho 1st of January? — To the end of the year. G39i'. Would the actual expenditure up to the end of the year cover tbo supplies for the rcmaiiider of the winter alter? — Yes. Go97. You were not obliged to incur any further expenditure to carry iliom through tho winter, as far as you remember? -No ; 1 could i»ot 1,'ot ihcin in. (;3'.'S You and one man, you say, proceeded to Victoria? — Yes; f took six Indians with mo to pack through the snow. Wo had to walk on snow shoes and carry our provisions. 6390. How long did you remain at Victoria? — I think 1 must have liecii ihcio about two months. It took us about tifty-iour days to walk down iVoni tho Howse Pass. (J400. Was any office work done in eonuection with the previous >caM.)irs Held work ? — Befoi-e I left the llowsc Pass wo made out all tho slaitchcs and accounts and everything else in tho tents. I waited there to get it done, and as soon as it was done 1 went to Victoria. iMOl. At Victoria was there any wo k done in connection with the Canadian Pacitic Railway?— Not with my party, except my own reports. I wrote those. I never went to the office except to see Mr. Watt occasionally. (M02. When did the work of the next season commence by your party, or any of them? — I think they must have commenced in the beginning of May. They commenced as soon as they could got out. (i403. Were you with them ? — No ; I had not got out. in charge was with them. C401. Who Avas that?— B. C. Gillette. Bx|iloratory Niirva-y, H. C— 1*11 i-ly H. .MilUl l)OiIy ol' party ut ('()Uiiii through Ea^lo "Witness arrangetl lor suppHes*. SrekiiiKs Pa»M. ()405. What was tho work of tho partj' tho boginiiing of thm KniiiimK .survey HoasoM ? — Kiinning the survey on down the lower portion (»t' Howse portioii of HowBo Pft«« find along the Cohimbia River, and opening the trail. 6406. Did you join them during tho progress of that work '/ — Yes, G107. About what time? — .June, I think. Party T. I8T1. 6408. Now, 1 think you said it was in tho beginning of Juno ihat you had party T under your control ? — Yes. 6409. \Yhat was their work ? —I took them to run a line tluom/h . tho Eagle Pass; they came by steamer to Yale and then by wag^on^ to Karaloops, and from there I sent them in by bout to tho Kagle Pass. 6410. What kind of boat ?— Bateaux. 6411. Did they start their exploration at Eagle Pass? — Yes. 6412. Moving in what dii-ection ? — East. 6413. Who arranged for tho supplies of that party ? — I did. 6414. In what manner? — T bought some in Victoria, some at Yale, and some at Kamloops. 6415. You purchased them on your own responsibility ?—Ves There was some portion that Mr. Watt purchased, but wo divided them all. 6416*. Were these some of the supplies which you say you purchased for the several parties in 1871, and divided among them ? — Yes. 6417. I)o you remember the size of party T ? — About tho same as S about twenty-two pai-ty^ without the packers; I think there were twenty-two in thai party. 6418. They had no animals and no packers ? — No. 6419. Do you remember where the depot was for tho sup))lio3 for that patty that season?— In the Eagle Puss. They wintered on the west side of the Columbia River, at a place called Big Eddy. 6420. What is the distance from their starting point in the Eagle Pass to Big Eddy ? — I think the survey made it forty-four miles. 6421. What sort of a survey was that ? — An instrumental survey. 6422. Was it a trial location ?— Yes. Size of party T, Noanhn.'vl.s and no p.ickers. Depot for supplies In tho lOagle Tass. An instrumental survey and trial location, from Eagle Pass to Blti Eddy. £agle Pass a good pass for railway purposes. 6423. Was it considered possible that the i-ailway might go through that pass ? — Y'es ; it is a good pass to get a railway through. 6424. About how long wore the party engaged on that survey?— Until the winter stopped them from working. 6425. About what time was that? — 1 think they stopped a short time before Christmas. I arrived there two or three days before Christmas, and I think they had only been in theii- winter quarters three or four days then. 6426. About what time did they commence that survey?— They must have commenced in August ; I think about the end of August. Time occ-upied in 6427. Then the work occupied somewhere in the neighbourhood of i" lour moSthl^ four months for that survey by party T ?— About that length of time. 409 MOBERLY Plenty of MlippilCM. Hilt dimciilfy In tliroiitrh. For half the tllstanco l)ct\vt'oiL Eti^le Pass and BIk Eddy hard to transport s«p- pUcs, Bxplomtory Nurvej-, B. C— Piirty T. tlt2H. As far as you know, was tho work progrcsscil with at a 8<-«kinKi» vnn*. reasonttblo rate ?— Yes. ()4'-'9. You had no fault to find with tho work dono, or with tho litue taken ?— No. (USO. Was tiiero any difficulty about tho Hupplios with that party I ihat yt'iu' ? - ^''it^'y had plenty ot supplies, but the difficulty was in ^ol- tiiifftliom through the woods. They could not got Indians tojjacU tlioni ,vell, and it was very expensive and a very bad country to get thcin thiougli, and the transporting of tho supplies after they got above the lidiit navigation was very expensive. I went round and I sent a large quantity of supplies that I mentioned as having bought at Colvillo to Hi:: Kcldy to meet them. (j431. How far was it from the point at wliich the boats could no longer transport them to this point which you call Big Eddy ? — Tho liiiiits came to Shuswap Lake and tho Eagle River, which flows through till' Eagle Pass. 6432. Could tho boats take the supplies up the Eagle Tlivor any dis- tance?— They could a portion of the way, but not up to whore the depot was. The depot was built in the pass, and the supplies were left there. (i433. Then the distance over which it was difficult to transport siip- plies was the whole distance of the survey of that year — ^that is, from tlie depot to Big Eddy ? — About half the distance. ()434. How did they make it more easy over the other half? — I sent the supplies up the Columbia to meet them at Big Eddy. 6435. Then you mean that you transported the supplies with diffi- (iilty al»out half way towards the Columbia River and then left them ? -I made a calculation roughly, and I found that we could transport the supplies from Kamloops to that depot for about 80 cts. a pound. 1 think it cost me about 5 cts. or 6 cts. for the bulk of the supplies sent up fi'ora Colville — the transport of them. 643G. What became of the supplies which were left at the point about half way on that survey ? — 1 sent an Indian to take charge of them when I loft, and T think they stopped there. The transport was loo expensive to take them out. It would cost another 80 cts. to take them back to Kamloops, and I found that I could buy, and did buy them, at Fort Colville and transport them for 4^ cts. I bought flour at Kamloops at 4i cts, I did not transport these supplies back again becau.se it was too expensive. 6437. You say you left the supplies that were difficult to transport J" charjio or . for the balance of that survey about half way on the survey? — Yes. 6438. And you sent some Indians to take charge of them ? — One Indian. 6439. With what final object ? — That there might, perhaps, be an opportunity of getting them out. 6440. Did he remain there in charge of them ? — I suppose so. I ihave never seen them since. 6441. Did you direct him to remain there until you saw him again ? I -Yes. ■!» Snpi'li'^xleft liulf way on tho survey. MOBERLY 410 m': » -i Kxiilorntwrjr Niiivvy, U.V.~ PHily T. M('i'kiii}( II Phkm. Allfiiipl lu re- J'OVIT Nll|l|lllf«t — (Tiivc III! order (<) Oiiptalii I'UKNtoii (iir them. No rciisoii to tlilnk t lint su|>- plles were recovered. Tost oi' supplies Ict'l oil llic way arnl lost .^7,0(Hi. Party T in is?:;, returned toKaiii- loops and proceeded on North Tlionijison, iiiakliig survey lhrou«:li Yellow Head I'as.s. Took what sup- plies they could carry with them. l)U2. Do you Uiiuw wlmL bocamc of tlu' sii[)|)lit!s, or tlu) Iii.ij.in ;__ No; 1 do not. I iif'tiTWHi'dH ^iive Cupt. l*ii^.st(jn, who went down i|,, followih^' ywii", iin ord«)i- to hoo if lio could rotovor tiny ol'tlioni but I doiit know what ha did. (J44H. Who wn.s ho? — IIo wim captain of Htoamer 4'J. fc'444. Was that a Ciovcrnmont Htoarnor? — No. ' 6-i45. Why did you direct him to look after thorn ? — llo hotiioil i,,,. mo on tho Upper Cloiiimbia, and Iwid diargo ofali my hotiis on iji^ Upper Columbia. I do not know but he sent a i'o[>ort in. 644G. Jf he got Ihcni, he AVoiild got them from iJig Ivldy I'oiiif.'^ No; I gave him directions at a point further .south tluin JIowso I' to j.)roceed down the Columbia Jliver and endeavour to get tlioscsii^l ]»lies at .Big luldy, or to get them transi)ortcd Imclc to J}ig Ivkly, ni,i| then to take them to Fort Colville. j 6447. Do you know whether ho succeeded ? — 1 do not know. not recollect; he might have. II ho did, it would probably be rotuincill by Mr. Walter Mr. Mall. fI44S. Is it your impression that hedid? — I do not know, but I tliinH not ; J have never seen him since. (114!>. Vou hiivc no reason to think thiit they were saved?— I tliiii];| not. C4.')0. \Yh:it would be the value of (he supplies lost in thtit wiiy, lui round numbers? — I think tlicy cost, in round numbers, about §7,iiOii, delivered there, as near as 1 could make out. t!451. Vou do not know wheiher llu' Indian is under p;iy yot?-lloj has never been jiaid by mo. 1 jjaid him o(F before he went tlnji'c. Itl was his hunting ground, and 1 told him to use whatever he wanted torj food . 1)452. Where did that party T winter ? — /i ■. Big Eddy. 0453. Had you still charge of that pnilv dui'ing tho season oflST:'?! — Ve.s. G454. What work did they do during the season of 1872?— Tliey I returned to Kamloops and Droeeeded northward on the east sidouflhel North Thompson liiver — sometimes on tho east and somotinu's on iliol west — making a survey through t!io Yellow Head Pass. 6455. About what time did they start on that Avork?-— I think [J telegraphed up to them on receiving instructions from Ultnwa loj abandon tho llowsc Pass. That was early in tho spring. 6456 . Tho party were then at Big Eddy ? — Yes. 6457. Do you know by what routo they arrived at Kamloops ?—Tlifl| same way they went up. 6458. Did they bring any supplies with them ? — Just what they could carry with them. 6459. There Avero no packers with tliis party ? — No. 6460. Nor animals?— No. ni MOBERLY i;4()l. I)(t you know wlint tinio they rouclicMl luunloopn? — Xo ; 1 do „i,t recollect. Tli'jy wero lu'oiigiit down, a.*! last as possible, and ('arn|», t„ Ivamlnops. (ilti2. Was that \\'(, k which thoy had to perfoi-m in thi' season of 1-;:' !i dilleient work from wliat you had bcMin led lo expect ? — Yes. (i|(i,;. What work had you before that expected that thoy would !h! jni;)' ,il li; ?- The completion of the sui'vey irom Jii^ lOddy to the ■ ,,ih ot llowso I'uhs, lollowing the course of the Columbia Itiver. liliih Then the work of the season of liS72 foi- party T, was makiiij^ ;i nurvey northward from Kamlooi)s, Ibllowing the Valley of the Tlioiiip^-oii through th(! Yellow Head Pass? — Kroin Tote Jauno Cache iliiuii^h Yellow Jlead Pass ; T parly went up the North Tlioinp-'Ou lomuko a survey from Teto Jaune Cache easterly through Yellow Head Pass. lilii.'). Do you say that they made '.'ir pro^-rtv-s from Hig i'ldd}* on i.lii'ir rdiito to Teto Jauno Cache ? — Not ah the way. (Itdt;. In what )>ortion of tho distance did they fail to niaIiip|illes wero to bo delivered at Tote Jauno Cache. I do not know whal was Uie cause of theii- not being there; 1 think that the engineer in ihargu ot tlic party was to blame for not sending his animals I'aik to get the supplies, (i470. Back fiom where they were camped ? — Yes. 11471. Whero was that ?— Somewhere between Teto Jauno Cache a. id Blno j-iivcr. (147-. Was it the duty of tho engineer in eharge to send his animals [ kck to gel those supj)lies ?— Certainly it Avas. ti473. As (ar us you are concerned, 1 undoi'stand you to say loyed l)y tho iiominion Government at Victoi'ia ? --Y''cs. Wl.'j. And that arrangoment was not carried out?— Tl.o supplies were nut up at Tote Jauno Cache. i;47t;. In making that survey, this party T was to proceed iwitiiwaid or Mjuthward? -Northward to Tote Jaune Cache, and then oa.>^lward through Yellow Head Pass. W77. If the supplies had boon arranged to be furnished at TOto Jauno Cache, • ow would the failure of that affect their tirrangoments when they had reached Blue River, because Blue River is a point which U)o,v would reach before they came to the point where tho supplies tjuylit to have been ?— Because the supplies did not come u]). Kx|»lorntorjr Survry, H. t;.— ruily T. N<'<'klnt( It Push. IIikI ('\pocteil to liiivo hiul to foiii- pli'tu work from lll'_'PM(ly to imiutli of llowsB SlipilliCM, .Afudc lair pio- irrt'ss save at Hliio i jike this did net t ho trail? tho trail supplies rst of all Explwratiiry MitrvcyHtB.C.' Party T ,l,;ii the trail party did not do their duty?— Tho trail party did do^„„,^.^^,„ a' . duty, but tho engineer in charge of T party did not do his duty, he tiioi«i»hoii ,.lni 1 not allow his men to work with the trail party. ''*'**" **"'*>• ffOUl not allow his men to work with the trail party. Trail piirty.lfilay- 0494. Did the trail party make their trail to Tote Jaune Cache ? — protiross to'i-^te y^jj'but they were delayed, owing to not getting assistance from T l^^eais.-^'enK'inVr ,,,,, ofT party Itiipro- P^'.'' pcrlyi-efused 11495. Who was onginee]- in charge ? — Mr. Mohun. ihem ussi stance. i;496. Had you instructed the engineer in charge of T party to render ;i,eh aissistance to tho trail party which you had organized ? — 1 instructed him to go up as fast as ho could and commence the survey a'Tete Jaune Cache. An engineer knows very well that he has got I'linakehis own trail, roads and bridges through tho country if he uant.s to got ahead. 1)497. I understood you to say that ])arty T failed to make proper pioi'vet^is, because the supplies were not ])rovided for them as you exiwded ?— Yes. 6498. And I understood you to say that supplies were not provided J, viiu expected, because the parties in Victoria were not able to trans- pt them over tho p'-ojected trail ? — So far us I know ; I never invosti- i-atri the thing afterwards. G499. But is that your theory that you have given me? — Yes. liSOO. Then I ttnderstood you to say that tho parties in Victoria [(Oiild not fullil their engagement for the reason that tho trail paity which you had organized did not do their duty? — Thoy did not get tluoiigh. The trail party did their duty, but the other party — T party — ilid not. iwfll. T understood that the T ji^rty not doing their duty, was the leict of the previou.> cause; now you say Uiat that was the cause of iIk' default? — No; the supplies run short. I cannot state how it was i!d02. Have you not somo explanation to give of that? — No; the paity ii ^applies did not come there, and 1 fupposo tho pany got disorganized. 'v.'i4("ex"('V>t''^ [On account of it thoy did nothing for six weeks, so far as I can make imnt rcr gum.'. 'Ul, oxccjit to ))unt tor gume. I v as awuy^ ; I did uot see the party. 1 Iwasaway on the Colrmbia Eiver all this time. ii.")(i.'l. J)id these r ies — I mciii the an the engineers, or superior oflicers Mvi Fiomins; id [ot these parties — rej;urt to you, .i;; their superior officer, the cause ,,f T''''''i»'icCiioii.'. trouble ? — Afterwards, in Tote .launo ('ache, 1 had u short verbal Ifxplanation, and it was there that i met Mr. Fleming in tho puss. This [fdilineor was with me, audi was in a hurry to return to tho Columbia, landltold him to give Mr. Fleming all the iuiormation he had. Whothor Wilid .so or not 1 do not know. 11504. Who was this engineer? Was it Mr. Mohun? — Yes. [ li.iO."). Vou handed him over to your uperior otticer to e.vulaiii the toui m I);*, 14 'J \' ^ J I explain lln' de- l^ittlCUlty !~\ CS. liuilt U. Flemln*?. 'ii06. Have you formed any estimate of the loss occasioned by that Aiiioiintorioas I i .■ u , 1 / . • 1 •■ 1 I .1 I •/ oi'<'!Vsl()iie(l liv luiault lit duty from whudiovor party it ])roccoded r — i suppose it thisiiflniuit. i!80a VhiM run about i)robab!y $75 or 880 per day— 1 should say roughly. ;\'!i'\'vy^;ki;.''''' ^""^ t'of^T. A nd for how long ? — For six weeks. MOBERLY 4U '•-^- •» Bxploiatory Party T and North ThoiiiHon Trail Parly. Trail party worked on unjisnisted l)y parly. Pecuniary loss about $:;,m. (!50H. Does that include supplies fui-nished to tlie part}- while they were on the work ?— About the avera_i>-o of what their cost wmild lie per head. 0500. And besides that, hud you not furnished the trail i);iity wjtli provisioas on the way up? — Yes; they got some of them from me. (Join. Was that not additional loss? — Xo ; the trail party worked on as fast as they could with what supplies they had. You seo T ])artv ought to have turned in their men with the trail party to ussi.si il,e,)j while they were lying idle there. ()511. This lo.ss is a pecuniary loss?— Ye^. nr)12. It amounts to somewhere near 83,4-00 ; did it involve a furtliei- loss than money? — The loss of the time in completing the surveys. The al)ove delaul f oau.sed a delay oi a year in coin- l>li'tlnt; survey east oi'llu' inonn- 1 at U.S. I'arty arrived iit Moose Lake ou the ISth Septem- ber. Kate or progress made by party T. from T<^te Jaune Caelie to Moose La ke. Part} f*. I'arty S discharged. (JolrJ. Had it a serious effect upon the completion of ilio survev that season? — \cs; I think 1 could havo got the parties out of ii,"o mountain a year earlier than 1 did. 0514. Was that because the survey of party T commenced at Tine Jaune Cache at last, much later in the year? — Later in the your; tlicv had not pushed it on to meet me on the other side, and I hud to ; they had surveyed from Tete Jaune Cache to Moose Lake. 0521. Can you ibrm any opinion about what, timo it took thoiii ; survey from there to Moose Lake ? — They averaged about a mile a day on the survey, and it was about twenty-nine or thirty miles, 1 think. 6522. iSo that they commenced their v/ork that year s'out ik beginning of August? — Yes; »oout the 10th of August, i th' k 0523. Where did they end their field work of tiiat seii>r > . ?— '". tm' height of land in the Yellow Head Pass. 6524 . Did party S continue in the service of the Government ?— They went oft' before I got back from the Columbia, and I wont down and discharged them all. 415 MOBERLY (;52j. At whal time were they discharged? — I thinU as soon as my iiiesseDgcr got down to Kamloops. 6526. About what time would that be? — In October some time ; it niiclit liavo been the early part of November. 1)527. W'''^^ that soon after they had finished tlieir field worlc? — As ^,n as they got the survey to the summit of the Rocky Mountains Instead of going on to the Athabaska, they turned around, left tlieir siipplie- on the summit, and went back to Kamloops as fast as they n\M go- (i528. They had comparatively easy means of communication with Kamloops? — At that time they had a capital trail all the way. ';:2". '^^i! the whole party return to Kamloops? — No; I got two of , !i iu 't — three of them. I sent my messenger down and he ,)Vv ^k li.o pirty, and a transit man, and leveller, and another mai; tame back to rejoin nie in the mountains; hut the others all went. (,'530. Have you ever formed a: t- estimate of the whole loss to tlie iimlei'takii.g, in a pecuniary sense, of that mi. -conduct in the season of ; 1S|2, of party T?— It might have boon a matter of $50,000 or §00,000. 6531. Now, returning to party S, what do you say was their work foi- 1^^2?— To build a trail through the Athabaska Pa.ss and along the Columbia, and then to carry on the survey easterly from Henry House to Fort Edmonton. 6532. That was for the purpose of completing a line which jiarty T had commenced, or oucxht to have commenced, from Tote Jaune Cache to Henry House?- - T-Jt', 6533. Was it to i li> '.hat line ? — Yes ; to Join that line. 6534. At Avhai ti: h; ild party S commence work, in the fall of 1872 ? ' -24th of October. 6535. Had they do.io iio work in the field before that in 1872? — They w(no al":''^ getting through the Athabaska Pass. 653f'!. Then when you speak of work in the field, you moan survey fffirk ? — Yes . 6537. You do not call that exploring? — Party S wore building a triiil all that summer. Exiiloratory SnrvryH, B.C.— Party N, S<>« kinu W Pittiw. nischiir(i[nd ill i)ctob(>r Of Novciiilifi'. Parly T. Mis'^'ticJiict oiT |)iirty ill 1S7J, cjuis.mI a loss ()[ from *")i),iiiKi tn .?lil),(IOII. Pwrty S. Work of )i;ntv S for Is7-.'. Party S c-om- ini'iicuil siirvov work '.Mtli Octoher, IS72. ot call that work in the field ?- ••■. e'- on the other side. -No , wo call that I'.-xrt.\' Sbuildintr a trail all tin,' .siiniiiier. 6538. Vou 549, Did they make the trail all +he way to Henry House '.•'— Vo-;. 6550. At what time did they finish the trail-making and begin tield work proper ? — The .sui-vey commenced at the summit of ih(> Kixky Mountains on the 24th of October, at the point where T parly left oti. 6551. So that'all that season was occupicil, up to the 21:th orOctubor, in getting through the Athubaska and preparing for the >iuvey.'— Yes. 6552. Was I'.is movement of pai-ty S directed upon your responsi- bility?— Xo. 65511 How was it directed? — Directions came through the Lieute- nant-Governor to me. 6554. From Ottawa? — Yes. 6555. From the Engineer-in-Chiof ? — Yes. 6556. — Did those instructions direct you by what course you were to move youi- supplies? — By the Athabaska Pass. 6557. Ifyouhac' jeen left to your owu discretion would you liavo adopted that route "^ — No. 6558. What route would you have adopted yourself? — I would have gone to Edmonton by the North Saskatchewan, and run my survey westerly. Commenced sur- vey on summit of liocky Mountains on anil October, JNIovcinenl ol' pfii'ty S now directed Irom Ottawa tliroutfh Lieut. -Governor 'lYutcli. Witness would liavo taken a route difrorent trom that direct- ed l-Ienilnsj. ■117 MOBERLY i;j5f). If tliat course had been adopted would you have •0 tonimonce your field work ut an earlier date than the been enabled 24th of Oe- Kx|ilornt4»r.v .SufVC.V. Ii.< • — f'liit.r- \. Stckiii;; 11 I'lixti, ami tober?-Yes. (1560. About what time do you think you would liavc been able to (omnienco it ? — About four months sooner. i),")61. Do yo'i moan that four months work of all youi* party was iirobably lost by adopting the route, determined on at Ottawa, instead 1 of allowing you to exercise your own discretion on the subject ? — I I think at least that. tl562. l^ that what you attributed it to ? — Yes ; I recommended against |ibeAth.'il>:iska Pass route, and in favour of a more easterly route by the North Sivskatchewan.. 65G3. You mean for the purpose of arriving at the same destination to Jo the same work ? — Yes ; I mean that I should have commenced ivork at a difl'erent point on the line. (;5(;-l. And accomplished the same work ? — Yes. \;')6d. J5ut you would have commenced at the easterly end of that r;iit of the survey instead of the westerly end of it ? — Yes. i;566. To whom did you make that recommendation ? — To the Lieute- laut-Govcrnor. tl')67. Did you explain to him your reasons ? — Yes. ij5li8. ^yere you instructed to follow his directions instead of the (iirettioiis from Ottawa ? I mean, was he tho channel of communication between you and the Engineer-in-Chief ? — Yes ; I am not sure whether [he showed me the letter, but at least he told me that the Government Ihad requested him to take a general supervision about the things over Idievc; not to interfere with any of our surveys, but to have a general lsiipervib.ioa over things. There were so many parties knocking about [the country. (j569. Do you mean that the instructions from the Chief Engineer Iwoiild be communicated to Mr. Trutch?— They were from that time llorward. G570. But during the time we are now discussing ? — At the time tho lielegram came to Mr. Trutch to stop the surveys in the Howse P^ss and •hwhn them, and that T should go to the Athabaska Pass, they sup- iKisc'l 1 had left Victoria ; but fortunately I had not. (i')"!. Do you know whether Mr. Trutch communicated to the |En:;ineer-in-Chief your suggestions upon the subject? — lie read the [tek'grani to me the next day that he sent. 6.")'72. AVhat was the substance of it ? —Pointing out that wo both [recommended the route by the North Saskatchewan to Edmonton, and iKiyiiig that tiio Athabaska Pass was, I think, impracticablo. He has pot all tho telegrams. 6573. Did any answer come to that suggestion ? — We got an answer, I think, in tivelve days afterwards. 1)574. Did you get the answer before you loft? — Yes ; 1 waited for ^k answer. 27 Loss hi conne- ciH(>neo of tilt! routo beln^ determluetl ut Ottawa. Recormiiciideil S\ tllUciPut coiii'se. Lieut. -Goveiuoi' Trutcli given a tJteneriil supor- vlslon in British Columbia, and lienceforward in- structions iroiii Clilef EngineiT went throuKh Trutch. Tijlo!j;ram scat to Chief i:n«incer that botli TruttrU and Moborjy re- commended a did'orent route to that determined on at Ottawa, and giving I'eaEons. Twelve days after auHwer arrived tliat the recom- mendation wa-s not approved of. t<";:; mOBERLY 418 Exploratory Snrreyf B.C.— Party S. NcekliiK a Pn«a. Trutoli an ublo entfineer. Loss in cons*'- quence ol" the route disapproved of by Mr. Fleming? — Yes. 6583. Have you any idea of the pecuniary loss occasioned by yoiii taking the Athabaska Pass instead of a more easterly coniso?-! think it Avould be about $60,000 loss. 6584. Do you moan that that was a positive expenditure which might have been saved by your proposed course ? — It delayed us ; and i it kept me from completing the surveys through that year. 6585. In speaking of me disappointment as to time, do you mwii that four months pay of the party was occasioned by this adoption (it I the Athabaska Pass to arrive at the point from which to coral mence this survey ? — That was loss. 6586. Was that a positive loss in money ? — Yes ; of course. 6587. When you speak of $60,000, do you mean the pecuniary los that was occasioned ? — That loss would not have been occasioned iii| four months, but the delay of keeping the party the following year. 6588. Then does this 060,000 cover a corresponding period of the! next year, or any period of the next year ? — We had to winter in tht^ mountains that year when we might have got out. 6589. Do you think, if you commenced the survey on this particularj lino, you would have been enabled to get through without winteringj in the mountains ? — I think so, provided the other party — party T- had not failed in their survey. 6590. Do you mean, if you had gone to Edmonton and proceeds westerly toward Yellow Head Pass, commencing four months oarlieil than you did, and that party T had commenced at Tete .laune Cach«j and proceeded easterly towards Yellow Head Pass, as contemplate" that the whole of that line would have been run before winter?— Yes. j 6591. And that the expense of wintering the whole of party S would have been saved, as well as four months' pay, during the time thiii they were in the Athabaska Pass ? — Yes ; they should have saved th^ preliminary survey, and I should have kept the party there afterwar' on location work. 410 MOBERLY Ex|iloratory Miirvty, B.G«— Party H. N<'ekiii){ a Pnita* Trutoh pnssosseiJ of more (iellulte iufoniintlon on which to form iiii opinion thiia h Icmlns', Holli witness find Triit('li liiul (laiii hoinrc tlii-m not in possession of Kloinln;;. 6592. Assuming that Mr. Trutch and Mr. Fleming were of equal iibility in forming their judgment on an engineering question, do you ihiiik there is any reason for supposing that Mr. Trutch would have 1 >en enabled to come to a more correct conclusion on this particular niiittcr? — Mr. Trutch had much more definite information regarding thefouiitry than Mr. Fleming could possibly have. IJ593. And had you any information which would assist Mr. Trutch in coming i-o a conclusion ? — Yes; I gave Mr. Trutch a great deal of information. I was assistant for two years in the Government em- iiloyment at one time, when he was Chief Commissioner, and had (haige of exploi itioos in the interior. i;594. Upon this Columbia River? — Yes. li.V.ij. Do you mean that between you and Mr. Trutch, you had data minii which to form a judgment which you think Mr. Fleming had not ?— Yes. i;59(). You commenced about the 24th of (October to survey easterly lioiu near Moose Lake, in the Yellow Head Pass, from the summit ot ilieKocl Trail ' r Z .7 Parly. 6603. They having continued with you during the season of 187'-? — I Yesf. 6604. That is the McCord party ?— Yos. 6605. How did they come to join party S ? — They finished the trail [thiough to Henry House in the winter, and built a depot for the paity winter in, and then opened the trail the following season to Edmonton. 6606. So that during the winter of IJ72.73 you had near Laca-Brule JTOiir original party S, with the ad'Ution of the McCord trail party?— lies. 6607. Numbering how many altogether? — I think we must have Number of men lad, between the two parties and the packers, somewheie ovei- forty or lol'ty-Vye! '^''*"'*' jforty-five men. I thinlc probably not quite .so many. 6608. About how many animals ? -I think wo must have had in the 25o animals. |iieighbourhood of 250 animals. 6609. How many animals had the McCord trail party, without jieference to pai-ty S? — I think they must have hail somewhere in the JMighbourhood of thirty when they joined paity S. 6610. Had you over 200 wit]-, your party ? — Yes. 27i Procfcdeil that season easterl.v as fara.s Lac-a-Hrulfi. Party Tdisml.ss- ed ; witness in eliarjje of party S anii tl\e Nortli 'I'liompsAn trail party. P- * MOBERLY 420 mm \mm Explorntory Surv»'.v»<» ll.C. — J'lirty S« II 11(1 In itrtli 'I'ltniiip- KMn Tinil Parly. 8liillK H PllNNa licftson lor liavlii;; > Columbia— to within forty-eight miles of the headof the Cohimbia-ainl they wore on the way when these orders came from Ottawa to nio ti. abandon the surveys. Those supplies were to be delivered to me at tlii- place — the boat landing oi\ the Columbia — forty-eight miles from the head of the river. When 1 had to transport supi)lies into the Yellowilia I Pass, I knew that if the men who had the contract for packing ctiuglr me there without packing animals they would i)ut on exorbitant juires, so 1 followed tho pack trail and bought all the animals that wcir among tho packers, before they knew that a change was to take iilaci.-. G(!15. Did that result in a saving to the Government? — Yes. GtJlG. By owning the animals you were enabled to get in your su|i- plies at a fair rate ? — Yes. GG17. 1 sc( 'hat in Mr. Fleming's report of 1874, there is a repoii from you to , im dated loth .January 1873, in which you allude Id another rojioi-t forwarded to him ; is that other report printed, as tar a> you know ? — No ; 1 think not. GG18. Have you a copy of it ? — Ves ; I produce it. (Exhibit No. 102.) (iG19. Are the facts stated in this additional report correct, as fara^ you know? -Yes. GG20. Are you still of the same opinion as to the conclusions whieli you make in that additional report? — \e». 6G21. Did you pass the winter, or any portion of it, near Lac-a-Brulc, in the winter of 1872-73? — The trail party were camped about within a quarter of a mile of the west end of Ltic-a-Brule, and built a depot there. My surveying party built their depot about two miles furtliii' west than that, within one mile and a-half of old Henry House. G622. I ask whether you spent the winter there yourself? — Yos. GG23. What time did you commence operations in tho spring ni 1873? — I think it was on the IGth March we left tho depot. 6G24. You did not get down to Victoria during that winter?— X<'. GG25. Was any office work done connected with tho field work ut 1872 ? — All the office work Avas done while we were in tho depot : plan?, profiles, reports, and accounts were prepared and forwarded down to | Winnipeg. I sent a dog train with them, with instructions thai they were to bo forwai'ded on by express to Ottawa. G626. Upon what work did your party start in 1873 ?_j-Sur tyinf.'] from Kettle River to Edmonton, and making a trail along the ^i.t. G627. Had you still tho large number of animals with you, 250?- No) 1 sent some of them back the previous autumn to KaraloepN 421 MOBERLY Fxpiorntorj- Sniv«-v»«i II. <\— I>iuti<'«M. A- T. (j(iJ8. Whr.t number of Jinimals .lid you ulnUT over ?— I lliiuk I '^•'•'♦'"k «"•"«"• Nmalifr <>r :iiiiniMi> k<'[ till.' iiKiiuilaln^. iiuhl liavo ]\nd 150, Of soinctliirig like tluit, in the luniuitiiins^ ])(M'1i;ij»> iiiiiniiii> ki'pt in ., few wore. fi(i2n. J^i'l .y<^ii think as many as tlint wouM bo roijuiri'il to transpoit voiu" ^"Pl'l'os in ISi".';? — Vcs ; they wore kc^pl busy all sumincf. (IfiS'l. While on the subject of su)iplit's, I wouM like to ask yon, what Supplies. Iiail been ye only way was to li-ansport them on men's backs. (jll33. IIow many men liad you provided for traJispf)i-tin<.!: for |)arly T, at Ka^do Pass? — Tiie men out of the survey and a tew Indians they m:aiai::od to pick ii]). iiliU. -Did you ]>rovido for tlic difficultcountry w'lich actuallv e>fistod nnik (iisnppiios n.iotranspoi-lin,i,^ for 187l for par'y T ?— Tlie bulk of the' supplies |;;;\;yXa'i.'sHu.y stcmnor, >ive to i>;ct from Shuswaj) Lake to the Columbia lliver. ijGI),"). Arc 3'ou speaking of party T now? — Yes. iJUiJl!. That Avas the party who left their supplies, and to which you HMit nil Indian? — Yes. 1)1)37. it tui-ned out that sufficient provision liad not been nuvlo for ihc transport in !^ of those Hupplies from Kan^-lo Pass to the Columbia llivci — iiii;- Eddy ? — I did not want to get those sup])lies to Columbia Rivor. Those supjilies were left in the middle of the ])ass, so tliat .1 toiild use ihem for the location survey through that pass. t)63S. Did yon not expect that your party would reiiuirc to use those siiiiplies as they went on with their woi'k tliat season ? — Xot on the L'uMiiuL'iu Eiver. i)ii3!b Between Eagle Pass and liig Eddy? — Big Eddy is at tiie west end of Eagle Pass. Big Eddy is the eastern terminus of Eagle Pass. i)G40. In 1871. the party progres.sed easterly ? — Ves. iit)41. But they were not able to take antticient supplies with them ? — Xo; because I provided supplies, by sending them up the Columbia to Biii; Eddy, by steamer. 1)642. Did Jiot that occur because they were unable to trans])0rt tlieir Did not want to supplies more than half way?— About half way. 1 did not want to "vboie" vay.'''' "'* send them the whole way, because I could send them up so cheaply tiom Colville by steamer, and I wanted the 8urve3' party to go along the river to Boat Emcampment, and then on location survey i could liave utiHzed the supplies in the Eagle Pass. fil)43. Do you moan that, in laying out the operations for l^tl for Jiirty T, you intended that supplies should be carried by them from MOBERLY 422 Kxplomtory Siir-v^yn^ll.t',— Pnrlieii M. A T. MeekiuK n Pnas* fc Reiison why tn ]H71 he niaili' provision for supplies Tor tlic following .ycur. Eagle PaHH eastward, about half the distance over that yoar'n .lurvoy' — About Imlf'way through that pass. < 644. That is the same thing as l»alf way through tliut yoai .j survey ? — About half way to Big Eddy. 6645. And you had always intended that they should remain tlioii- and should be utilized on the next year's operations ? — Yes. 6646. That is, provided that you .should decide to make a location line?— I made every provision to make a location survey right through, from Shuswap liuke to Julmonton. The survey work done theie Wih reliminary work, and I was making provision to go and linish the ocation survey as soon as that was done. (i647. Do you mean that your instructions for the 18*71 opoiuti(jns included making a location line at a subsequent period, as well us |)iTiiminary survey lor that year ?— No ; there was nothing dcliiiito about it, except to get this preliminary survey done lirst, 6648. Then why diloiHtor> (J657. But lit the beginning of tho 1871 oporalions you took it
id you not know at that time that some other pass might bo The cIk. ice lav j.od?-l thought it lay between Vollow Jload Pass and llowse Pans, ^J'^s'n'lldBV'X'Jr which would bo adopted. Hcii.i Puss. ii")5'J. If it should turn out that the Vellow Head Pass should be the iiic .'iilopted, was it necessary to make any location lino for llowse Pass?—! should have located a lino through Eagle Pass to the west «lope of the Kocky Mountains, they being the two doubtful ])oints on that route . 0500. Although the Yellow Head Pass had boon adopted? — It was Dot adopted then, at that time. 0661. Did you know that it might be adopted; did you not conceive ihat it might bo adopted ? — Yes. 00(j2. Did you conceive that it might bo adopted at such u time as to Miller a location line througli the Howse Pass useless? — No. 0063. Why not ? — T thought that this work would all be done the lolluwing year. 1 was not charged with any work on the Yellow Head '&>A, thtil year, until 1 <:;ot the telegram that the Howse Pass had been 'ab:imionod. 1 had I'eceived a telegram to make a location through I Huwse Pass, and a few days afterwards came the instructions to aban- I don ihiit work. ♦ 0064. J)id you arrange for supplies being loft in Eagle Pass for the I [iiirpuse of the location of the line, in 1872, before you knew that a I location lino would bo necessary? — I left those supplies there in 1871 txpectiiig that in 1872, 1 would complete tho location survey through IthoEaglc Pass. CCOf). What was the reason in 1871, that you expected the location jiineto bo made through tho Howse Pass? — Because J thought it was jprobable that it would be tho pass that might bo adopted, in preference |to Yellow Head Pass. 0066. Then it depended upon the probability of your expectation Iking correct ? — Yes . OOGT. It turned out not to be correct? — No. 0068. Would it not have been bettor to have provided for a possibi- jlitvof it?< not being correct, and to have saved those supplies ? — If you pould like to take a number of men into the mountains and run tho Iriskot their starving to death, I would hy all means say: leave the Implies out ; but you cannot take men into the mountains and risk Itheir lives. They had several times to make trips during the winter, |;o get supplies from that depot. Hocelvfd a tcU- «riim to iiiiikc a location lint! througli i low so TasH ii row iliiyg before reoelvnig Instruction to aliaiiilon it. Advisability of arrangeinent as to provisions for lUT-J, contingent as to correctness of opinio!) tliul Howse Fit' would lui • ')- n. adopted. 3. At what time did your examination of tho Howse Pass lead you in October, lst.s, Jtothe judgmont that it would not bo the one adopted ?— In October, ^J^gp'JV/^^^^'j^^^ |lS(3? noteligiblV was Was it not in March, 1872, telegraphed thattho other had been Kially adopted ? — No ; it was telegraphed to me to abandon tho survey IMhcUowso Pass, and make surveys through Yellow Head Pass. 1VI0BERLV 424 ■ «l>lorulory Miir»«'y»» H.<'.~ Pnrl.v N. Mi't-UliiK ii I'hhn. "Wlllii-'s 111 l>7:! coiK'liiilcslriiiii Ills own oh-^C VUllnii tliiit Y.llow HiiKl Pans WHS lliiU Wlllcll Nljdlllll 1)1? pllONcll. J'i- ^ll■'V(■,v• In INT.; tiiilil wfirk tijidcd ill OctobrT. Survey (minIciIv toKoot Kivor. Infiti-uctod liy Fleming it Smith to tiii'D imcU west to MoDsi' Liiko. lilnei'iiii from ■MooRo l.akii to lotO.lHlllH^Cllnh''. CriTl. Tlioii M) fill' as your itidiviiiiial jii(l;4-tiu'nl /^ocs, ynii wove no* i awai'u ()(' llio ])i-c!tbi'oiico for llu) ^'ollowllcinl I'ai^s, until you Ii;ii| „^.|,j J your surveys of 187.*V(* — In Octolior, 187.5, I rodn tliroii;^li ^'<'liii\v l[i;;,,| F':i-s to tlicOraml ForUs of tlio P'rasor, and I canio to tlio f'iii(lii..i,,i| i tliori llh'it it was a boltoi' pass tliau llowso Pass. 1 simply i oilc iiii'i,n^,i I on linrai'lKulv ; tlu> i'wtil tinio I lind boon ihrouijli it. (I()7-, At what time in 1)^7.J did your party coase field work-? _!, 1873 wo ceased Held woi-k ju.sL i)')loi-o we left Tt'do .lauue Caelio to m\ bade to Victoria. ? — Yes. (](!77. What time in 1R7I5 did that party eml their worlc ?— I tliinkii was the Itllli of October that I completed the survey ot the Ti'tchnur Cacdie. fit)78. In the spring of the year when you eonimeneod work easieilv, how far did you proceed ? — To Hoot River. GC79. Wei-e aU your party oceupiei^ on that survey? — Yes. GGSO. Animals and men? — \'os ; all except one man in cliargi' of the depot. GOn. At what time ilid you end that easterly survey? — 1 tliiiil< i; was about the end of August. CG82. What did you do next? — I turned back and wont we-l ti)| Moose Lake — re-crossed the mountains. Party return. s to yictoria. Bupplios trnns- ferreil for storage to Hudson liav Co. at Lake Sto. Anne. 6683. Had you special instructions for thut change? — Yes. 6684. From whom ?— From Mr. Fleming and Mr. Smitii. G085. What work was done after that by tlu> party? — A line w;; run from Moose Lake to Tete Jauno Cache. 6686. Was it a located line ? — It was a very careful survey— a inv-l liminary line with the cross-soctions — so that it might have been u-ol almost as a located line, I ran it very carefully indeed. 6687. About what time did that work occupy you ?— That was almtl the middle of October when the surveys were finished at Tetc Jaune[ Cache, J 6688. Did your party do any work in the fall of that year?— Njij thoy went down at once to Kamloops atul returned to Victoria. 6689. Do you moan the whole party, or only the party in charge ofj the animals? — The whole of the party, except one man wiio was lefttof get the supplies that thoy oi'dered to be transferred to the lluil-oi!J Bay Co., at Lake Ste. Anne. 6690. In dealing with this surplus, would you exercise any jiulgmentj as to the price at which the company would take them?— No; thejj were simply transferred, for storage, over to their hands. 425 MOBERLY l''.\ |il4trn(ory ^iirvi'>H« H.<'.— iKIDI. |)id tlioy ])iirc'lias(' tliom, oi- moroly liiko cluiriio of tlictii ? — I s".'iliii«*i» inin.. H'lit dvoi' to Mr. Uicliaid lliiidi-Jty to soihI iiii oH'.coi' \\\t to lalco tliciii overfi'iiu my Iwmds. I think 1 wrolo to liitii — I liad iiovor hcoii liiiii — ,,ii,l toM liitiithut I would pay tlio expiMisos ot'llio ollicor that he would (.cmJuP lor tliat piii-poho. I wanted to get a ixHoi])( [Voin lh(! conipaiiy fur thoHo supplier. t'tCt')'!. I siip[»()s(i that wart according to yoiii- iiisti'iictions in dc'ling with suri>lurt hupj)lics ? — Vo.s. , iJfiO.). Voiir jiarty procoodod to Kamloop.^ in the tall ot iST.'J, wi.ti' I'aii.vtiiMiiur-cd (bey «""<• '"'H'""'' soiiK' Indian-!, troni the rorivs ol the AUti'cda up the INorih 1 inip-nn, tidn ii|> Nn.iii 'vyand connect with the survey that htid hecn iiinlroni liowetiound 'ii"'"'ii"«>i'- 'iito Inlot. aij'J". At wliat time did you end that exploration ? — I won only a lew (lavs ill there; I thijd< it must have been iihout the end ol Oclolier. (J608. Did you then proceed to Victoria ? — Yes. Hr.lli). .Did yon remain there long? — Two or tliree weeks. (JTOO. And then where did you go to?— To Ottawa. iTorc, .is lo 6T01. IIow long did you remain there? — Rather longer than 1 a< nkiiiii" wunti'd. 1 think about a year and a half. I got in in the beginning «»v«iiiuui.-^i. nf .luiiiru'v. 1 was there all that winter and summer, and I thml-: the '\yii',"" ""'',",'!''.''"^ MHI'CIi tollOWing. (Mil nixutMiiul l>ri)rili's iuiil LTninji ()"02. Were you occupied during that stay at Ottawa upon the Cana- iiroii^'iuuroiiiita. dian Pacdic Railway business? — 1 had to get out the reports and tlio proiile of the survey, and then I had to go through nil the accounts v.'itli (lie Auditt)r, Mr. Tajdor, which was completed, 1 think, about the 2iitli ()( May. (J70:;. ot what year?— 1874. ()i04. That would take you to May, 1874 ?— Y'cs. (JT05. Then after that what were you doing ? — I expected to leave then, but they appointed another auditor to go through tlio accounts again, Mr. Eadford, and they kept me all summer and winter. fi70G. Was there some difficulty about the auditing of these accounts ? —Mr. Taylor got through the accounts, and wo had nr trouble. I had to explain eveiy bill and every account. 6707. Do you moan that after having once gone through, ho was no^ iiad to go Natistled that the operation was complete ?— Yes. !i sTcmui'un.e.'"*^ 6708. Do you know what the reason of that was ? — I .sujipose it was to try and give me a little difficult}-. 1 never asked. 6709. To give you a little difficulty ?— Yes. • MOBERLY 426 Accoitiits (ivt-rhiiiileiK Result of two audits the same. Gov(M'nruent re- fusml to pay witness an'ytliliig more than au allowance for th<; time engflscd in un(iitiDi; Ills aceounts. No fiirtiier I'on-' ncction with Canadiiiii Pacllic Railwjiy. 6710. Was tln' second audit accomplished satisfactoi'ily ? — Yes; there was no change made. 67!!. The result was the same after both audits? — Yes. 6712. Then you lost that season altogether in consequence of the second audit? — Yes ; they refused to pay me. 6713. What reiison did they give ? — They did not give mo any reason at all, but thoy would not pay. 6714. Do you mean to say that thoy would not pay tor your servicosi or were there other accounts ? — iNo ; they would not pay dii iiiif thai time — fi'om the time the first audit was completed, and while thfi second audit was going on. They refused to pay me any sala-y, onlv an allowance during the time I was occupied auditing '^'- No reason was given Cor not liaylnglilm. He left. II ad Some drafts drav*-:i by witness reniniaed unpaid for a long time. Palil htm no ex- penses from the lime he arrived in the eeatral provinces of tJie l>oiniuIon. Thinks it was a mistake to have taken supplies 6715. After the second audit was completed, were you further ton- iiectcd with the Pacific Eailway ? — No. 6716. Have you not been upon the works since then ? — No. 6717. Was there any rea.son given for not paying y(ju — such as youi' misinanagcinont or inaccuracy ? — No; they never said a word to me. 6718. The reason was that you had not been employed oxcopt i auditing ? — They gave mo no reason ; 1 told thoni that thoy ha behaved unfairly, and I lo(t. 671*^ Would thei-e have been any time that season to do tmythini,' further in your busine.s.s, after the time you say the second audit, was ended ? — I leit in March, after the second audit was in. I applied to i,'ot, a settlement for that time 1 had lost, and some t mo elapsed i:, (,>;-"e.^. })onding. 1 wrote to the Minister of Public VV'-rks, and the i-csiik oi' the corresjiondenoe was I could get no satisfactio.t, and 1 wont tiw-.y. 1 only asked them to pay mo up to the end of tue year, but 1 Ict'i in March. 6720. Since that you have had no connection with the works .'— None; there were accounts, some drafts, that wore given 1)}' nic, tor ditlbrent things in the intoi'ior, that wore not paid for :i lojig linw after 1 came to Ottawa. Thoy woi-e accounts for su])plics ;'nd for some men's wages, amounting to several thousand dollars, and for dog- sloiglis that were sent up on my i-o'iuisition to Fort Edmonton to the mountains by the Hudson J3ay Co., tha*.. were not paid for four youis afterwai'ds. 6721. Have you been out of pocket besides your loss of salary diiiMiig that time, in consequence of the action of the Government?— Yes, thoy never paid any of my expenses froni the time I arrived in CaiKula. When 1 joined the railway, and thoy gave me ray appoirtm^mt, it wa-* mentioned then that all my expenses should be paid ; but I had to pay all my own expenses. 6722. Is thi.s matter the subject of a claim now on your part, agaiibt the (jovernment ? — I tried for it ; but I found it was easier to go to work and make money over again, than it was to get it. I think if it hail been a private company, I should have sued thom. 672H. That claim is not pending still? — No. 67-4. Is there any other matter connected with this railway which you wish to explain ? — I think after I loft the mountains, the Yellow tll'.'T. i;TL': 427 MOBERLY l[^,ml p;i.s>, llint Ihore was a great mistake made iri having thesupplics taken out of the pass. They ought to have been left for the Huvvoys •hat wore made afterwards, and for which supplies were taken back hure iii,'airi. Of court^c, I am speaking now of after I left there. I wanted to bavc those location surveys finished without taking the parties out (iftlie mountains. There was so much time lost in taking men back- ivard:^ iiiul forwards that the better and cheaper plan would have been 1,1 have iit'pt them in the mountains, when they were on the ground, ami tini^hod those surveys. Parties Avent up from this side oven to make I xplorations light at the Athabaska River, in one place within half a niile of my depot. I met the pariy here under Mr. McLeod. 1 <;iid : "You are going to explore the Mulgravo River to the Rocky Kivev, and other explorations. I can tell you I would have i)ecn the ],:iit\ 10 Ikivc given you information about it. You vvill go there and iiiu- back again and lind no pass." I said : " 1 have expioreil every iic- of those ])assos." I told him he would have a dilticull trip, and Aoukl (.vuvi back without iinding any pass there. I think his report ;. [iiibli-lied in the report of 1873-74. i;;::"), J>id ho succeed in getting any pa^s? — No. t)?ii!. Did you think that there was no pass because you had Meviou-ly ox]jlored il ? — I had tried to get through botli ol tho^o j)laces, luni aboiii a dozen )thers. ilT'JT. You mean your men employed on the Pacitic Railway ? — No; '.viiL'ii I was up iu the mountains. i;t2^. Ill what season had you made those branch explorations? — In >Tl I li'i'^d to see if thot'e was any pass from the head watei's of the .N'n'th Sa^kalchowatl into (he Athabaska valley, examining il from the 1 v;i!ley ot'lho Norlii Saskatchewan. The following year 1 examined the si'iienuii'je of mouiitains southerly from the Alhabaska, and tailed to rind any pass. 67'-'!). Did 30U I'^port the result of these branch explorations to your .-iipei'iiM' otlicei'S ? — Xot any unimportant ones. (J.uO. Did you report the fact that the Athabaska Pass was t. (a kasibleuuo? — Yes ; that was out of the question altogether. It \;is i ot no U:-e. >''i2\. Was Mr. McLeod then going to explore the Athabaska Pa-^s ? j-llo was going to explore those passes from Athabaska River, to try ai;d get lliiough the mountains to the south. I told him when 1 met iiimlieio — 1 was then out of the Goverument employment- that he ivoiilil tail. •!732. Those may bo described as subordinate explorations ?— Y'es. iJT'iS. The point that I understand you to make is, tiiat be was sent I 111 survey subordinate localities ? — 1 do not think that he was sent to [Minoy, but sim]ily to examine. |j7.'14. Well to examine what you had ali-eady ascertained to be unavailable?— Yes. ^Toi. Had you reported that fact to your superior officer, that \ou Dad (i scovered them to bo unav'ailable ? — I think I had repotted Exploratory K»rv»y«,B.C.— out of Yellow Henil Push, where surveys should h;ivo been coin- plotcd bofore the iiHTi left the mountains. W.irn'd Mc^Leod ho would And no pass up tho Mul(,'r;ive K;vor. Report ed Im- ji'issibilily of AthabusUa PasH. VV;ini<>.l .\rcr-ood he would fall to ^'et I hrouK'i the iiiountains to tlio soul 11. i,viu'ially that it was impossible for us to go through Irom Aibabaskii no tiirounii, fro? to (ho Saskatchewan without going much further to the north ami .sulkiiichewai.!'' .Showed in rnport ail vociitliiu pro- s<'iit Hue that It was liii()OS}slble tr> from tho f* MOBERLY 428 Kxploratory Miirveytit B.C.— Neckiii;; a Piihs* Snnplo pxploi.i- tlOtl !Mll l|ll:Uf to iispcrt.un r";)si- hllity (pfinix pass, iiniicc. ss.iry. Exntiiiniitloii mmli' by witness in 1S7I a i)ii'- liniiiiarx sin'vcy. oast, and I sent a fikotch map to Mr. Fleming, tlu'ou<;li ^[|■. ^[■^Y^,u Smith, befiii'o 1 came down, showing them whore tlio I'ighl Im,. \'()i-\i, Canadian I'acitic Ivailway we^^t of Yellow Head Pa,-s wa^! ; ihc line thcv are on now. G73G. IJoside.s showing them where you thought the li-lit lino was did you show him (hat those other loealitie.--, which aie in llie ii(ri|| line, had been examined, and ascertained that they were not availuble' — I shftwed them that 1 had tailed to get through those mounlains. (>T.'i7. But dill you report that you had actually ex|)lor('d t!icin;'_[ do nut Icnow that I did. 1 think when I told them thai, I lual l:ij|ejini get through, it was hardly necessary to mention every little d'ock aiid valley that, I went in through. It was hardly likely thai 1 wouiil lea\v any pass unexplored in a country like that. 07^:58. In oi'der to ascertain the feasibility of any jjass, i.s ii nGi.'es>.arv to make a location siu'vey ? — No. ti7d'.'. It can be done by merely what is called an exploialivii. ?— V^., ti740. Was there a location survey made of an}- pcilion of t!ic loiri. j tory thj'oiigh the Ilowse Pass? — No. (!741. The examinatioti which you made in 187 1 was not a loeatiotj survey ? — No, b"742. What would you call it, technically ? — A preliminary stiivtv. fi74.'>. That is instrumental, I suppose? — Yes; not tlridiiirh ihij Ilovvso I'ass. The sui'vey that I did through the Yellow Ilciui IV wa8 done much note co'rcetly. ()744. Could the fea ibilily of the Ilowse Pass, for iiistaiicc, havel been discovered without anything more than a ()arc ex).!r.!ali(iii '/—A very good idea could have lieen arrived at ju-t meiely by any oiiifiriMi iToinii- over il atid exatnining it with liis eyes. Run a fast survey alonv; l raU to Howsi' I'ass, ti'iik levels and j^ot tlie «llstaiii'<'s. Inst riicl I'd (o nmkesnch survey jis )io made l)y Fleming. 0745. Was a more ex))ensive mode than that ndo|)te!! !)'• yo!i?— [ lan a vei \- fast siirve\' along the trail tliat we cut tliioui.n the valiev, and took NvcU and got the distances. 0740. Was it nec«-suiry to do that to a.-certain the fets'.Mljtyof it'.'-j I think it wa.s necessary to enable me to send a jirolilt' down to the (iovornment, so that they would be able to decide wli;it kii.d of linil tliey would bo likely to get. 07 17. Did you a-^sume (hat there would bo any liiu:> (h_M\?— Yi-. 0748. Ordid you assume that you were only to a-coit.-ru whotlior there was a possibility of a line ? — f assumed (hut it waN veiy likely that the railioad would go through there. 0740. Were (here instructions from your superior oiUrer t'i make I such an examination — whtttever the technical name of it in:iy lio— as| you did actually make? — ^'es. 0750. Assuming that this examituition may Inive been mor.; elal rati' and more expensive than was actually necessary, 1 wi h to kiiouj who was responsible for the direction ot' it ? — I f )rg('l the wiwJiii,!,' otj my instructionH. I think a groat deal of it took place in a conversulionj between myself and Air. Fleming, verbally, the lirst year— thai wasiiif 1871 — and (hut it was considered that 1 ehouUl make a pioper suivoyj ihrough (here for a railway. 429 MOBERLY II. 1ICOO^^;^^• liiiv >iii'V('V. (1754. Bat you would not have hud to j^et so much supplit;s if the I party had been a few men ?— No. K\|>li>ri«tar>- o',')!. i3iit the problem, in my mind nowis, what was the pfoj)or '^•-■'■'*^'"-«' "■ ******"• ^^^^.^Q\'} — I con.siuei- u preliminaiy survey thi'ougli tboi'o, and a looutiou Mirveyof tlio line through the llowse Pa.s8 and Eagle Pass. 07,')2. It the oidy object of that season's o)»eration was to ascertain Feasii)iiitv of ,|,efeasibility of the pass there, the survey which you say you have f^.'I'^fj^^'^J.'Jflji'n^:;, nvi.ip w!is unnecessary and moi'c exijensive than it was reciuired to bo, =it mucii k-sso.x- lii'rtiu.so vou say tlie leasibility oi it could bo ascertained by merely .Svor tiugrounu. ■ralkiiii,' through ? — It could have been ascertained, but there could not [have been a proper knowledge arrived al. AVe did not get to the west [eiiJoftho llowso Pass until the 2nd of October. (175;;. That wae because you had a large ])arty, was it not ? — Wo i could not get our siipnlies there without. Failed to set sup- plieH tlin)ii]Lrh, iiiosl oi wliicli would not, have Ijct'ii ii((Hl('d for n 1)755. If the object of the survey — or examination, r.ather— was only winch was aii lioii-t'ei'tain. the feasibility, could it not have been accomplished by a nMtuircd.'' iess I'bborute and a less expensive examination? — Yes; 1 think it I could . fi756. Then do you know why the more elaborate and more expensive Eoni' was adopted ? — To got a thorough survey. Ij757. Why was a thorough survey adopted instead of an exploration ? l-hupposo it was owing to their wanting to have the line located within two years, according to the agreement with British C< 'unibia. 1I758. AV^ho was responsible for ado])Ling the more thonMJgb aiiil Kieiunis; r.'simu- [expensive purvey ? — 1 think Mr. Fleming gave instructions about eili'iH/rVite survey? Iww the parties were to be conducted in the printed books that he I «ent u.s . 6759. Vou speak of printed books ; were printed instructions given I vou ?— Yes . 1)760. Did those printed instructions describe the kin(l of examina- {J;"//,'J*:'/,,!^\?;f^^^^^^^^^ Itioii that you were to make in this instance? — 1 think so; it is so long by Fii-ininvrdts- «in(T I have read them. They described how each engineer was to con- oliKiinc'^wavMo JiRthis survey, and what was to be done in carrying them out. <'..ii- perlal Govern- ment, come to the decision that from Kam loops to Burrard's Inlet wiia safe to be the line, and that the devised, not to ascertain whether the Howse Pass was a foasihle m^^ but, taking it for granted that it was a feasible pass, to compare it wiiii another one which was believed to be a feasible pass ? — Yos. G7G6. Have you over given any serious consideration to this questioir whether the ascertaining of ji route for a railway througlj Hiitisi. Columbia could have been accomplished, at less expense than it lu! been accomplished, by sending out smaller parties and exploring nierolv instead of making preliminary surveys ? — Ves ; T should havo rcconi mended a proper survey through the Howse Pass and tliinufh th,' Yellow Head Pass. All other explorations I could have dune with nh engineer and a few Indians, without those heavy survo)^ parties When I heard the Bute Inlet survey was going on 1 reconuiionded ai: exploration, but not a survey. 67<)7. ^Yas your recommendation ado])ted ? — No. 6708. Was there an elaborate survey ? — Yes. G76;». charge ; 6770. 6771. Who had charge of that?— Mr 1 forget the engineers thiit wore on it. Marcus Smith had tl le goiierni -In 1872-73. I do not know how many, make that recommendation, veibally or In what year?— How did you writing ? — By telegraph G772. To whom ? — To Mr. Fleming. 6773. Do you remember when you made that recommendation ?-|[ was in the winter of 1872, I fancy — in Februaiy. 6774. That was after your first year's operations ? — Just after I l^i liown to Victoria from the interior. 6775. Was there any other instrumental survey made where yon think a smaller exploration would have been suHlciont ? — 1 think ilic Howe Sound survey, up Howe Sound, was unnecessary. I Ihncy some of the more northerly surveys wore unnecessary. In ratiking explor- ations and examinations in British Columbia for the Imperiai (Jovei'ii- ment, much of the interior work was in my hands; I obtained infor mation of the country in every way possible. When Mr. Trutch wa.>. Chief Commiasionor I was his assistant, and gave him the iuformation about iho country, and that was what led us, in 1867, when 1 left the employment of the Imperial Government, to come to the decision that from Kamloops to Burrard Inlet was safe (o be the line, but that wo wanted to get the Howse Pass and the Yellow Head Pass thoroughly examined to see which was the better of the two. We were perfectly clear that either one of these had to bo adopted. Our system of curiy- ing on explorations is shown by the reports published by the Govern- ment of British Columbia for 1865-66. We deemod that system to be an oconomical one. 431 MOBERLY Kxplorntory NiirvcyatH.C't— 6776. Can you describe shortly what that system was ? — 1 explored **«*>**"«» Van; ffilh one or two men and a few Indians ; took observations ; 1 ^'oxpiorationH'' fldimated the distances ; took latitudes and lontjitades as well as possible ".'"i''"" t'lo old and obtained altitudes. 1 sent my assistants in the same Avay. Very British Columbia. often when I wanted to obtain information of some place, I have issued provisions — a few pounds of flower, and bacon, and tea, and tobacco — to men I could depend on, so that they could prospect and report to me. They got their provisions in the interior whore they wanted ihem and I got the information without having to pay any wages. It was an economical mode of doing it, and I obtained u great deal of int'ormation in that way. 6777. Taking any given distance of locality, have you any idea how much more expensive the system adopted for these ])relirainary jui'voyst would be than the system you have described ? — I do not know what the expenditure has been in British Columbia for these surveys, Imt I know it has been large. 6778. Judging from the parties you had under you and the cost of them, can you ibrm no opinion ? — Since I left the em])loyment of the Canadian Pacific Railway, [ have not followed the number of parties that they have had there. 6(79. Can you form an opinion on the subject without knowing ixactly what has happened ? — J think that, under the other system, we might have got the information that we deemed requisite in two vear.s, with, I should think, four parties — four surveying parties. 6780. Exploring i^arties do you mean ? — No ; surveying parties. 6781. That is not exactly what I am asking. Assuming that it is aii uocfgnary necessary to maJvC an examination of any given locality in tliat country, J"Janii'ig BriVisii 1 an you state what proportion of the expenses of a survey party, such Columbia miKht ;byou had, would be retiuired to make only the exploration in the way $4orvKwIo?.':f]794. Had you much experience in crossing rough coui.nirs ?— A good deal. 0795. Do you think that would be useful to you in forming an opinioh of the practicability of lines through a country not thoroughly exploieii .' — I think so. ()7!H5. Js there any other matter connected with this subject wliii !i you would like to explain ? — I do not recollect anything at jui^-ont, but if I think of anything 1 will let j'ou know. Witnoss's fxperlcnco. ALLOWAY Nixoii'N I'lir- v»'yor«tl»li»— ttiiyiug lIufM'S. Failed to Mud iiit>in<)raiidum hooks. WiNNii'EO, Thursday, 23rd Soptombor. W. F. AiiLOWAY's examination continued : vSO. By the. Chairman : — 0797. At your last examination you said that you had liKulo -oir.i' entries in some books of the particulars of the purchase of those hordes that were sold to Mr. Nixon, and that you would look for the books; have you searched for them ? — I have. 0798. Have you found any ? — I have not. There was only one pocket book and one diary, and it was only in one, and f could not tin I it. 0790. Do 3'ou mean that you had only one book in which you Inid entered all these transactions ? — That is all at that time. OSOO. You kept one book which would cover all that time ? — Yes; I kept a pocket diary about three inches by five. 0801. I think you said there would have been some difficulty in to- cording the names of the persons from whom you purchased tlioso hoi-sos, because some of thorn would bo half-breeds whom you did not know ? — I said 1 did not know the persons from whom I jMuxhased, and 1 did not take any trouble to find out who thej were. • 433 AL.'.OWAY of hoi'M'S. t)S()2. Yoii ^;avo that u.s omi reason why names were not moiitioiu'd ? «uyi','^''ii'il^c(i, ^Yes' in my diary I never entered the person's name from whom I accouiiis, kniffht. i P^^ P'lt down, saj', " oin> che.-tnni, hor. o,' dido, mu many jiiids hitch, and if he hacl any pai'ticular points about him, T would „,)ioril:it so mucli. i;S03. Wouhi you not expect that that purchase and the particuiarn of it ^illik^ii'.'rontriis «oiilusiness man would be foolish not to. iNOl) Tlicre would b'.* no difficulty in rccoalirii' the names of the a 'li'^fiui^y '" , II ,1 ,• I .) ■ \' I . ■ 1 .1 III Ki't'piiin ''i<"'''>ii;it .filer.-' iis well as Other ))!irticulars i* — Ws ; I tlimk tliere would tiave oiniuncsoi seUcrsf Uriidillicuity. ti,-07. What would lutve been the difficulty ? — Well, sometimes horsos ■,wiv' out down by people to be sold ; one man wotdd come in from the in.ii'lil)<)iii'i>o:iu and would brin^ in tlwee or four horst'S ; so-and-so would «,ii(l Ills horse and he wanted so much for it. If 1 did not give it the l,oi>o would go back. tlS()8. Wlijn ho said so-,md-so you mean thrt he would mention the !i,imo of the owner ? — Yes. ! tjSOO. If he mentioned the name of the owner would there be any Nodifticuity in lilirticulty m keeping a record of it f -iSo; I do not su])posc there would oinjinii.'.-<)fs(iiiM I have been any great difficulty in keeping the names. ot horses. 6^10. 1)0 you think there would have been any great or small difli- [rultv in keopiug a record oi' the names, if it occured to you as being pecessiny ? — If 1 had ♦hougliL it was necessary I would have kept the 1 names. 6S11. You said that the accounts being made out it, a lump sum jaml ;i linup niimbor, as j-our accounts were oti sevtsai oc('asi>)ns, was raii>0(l, to some degree, by the fa^t that you had no book-i c-epcr ?--No. M2. l)itl you not say that ? — No ; I did not. I sa o I had no book- i keeper. u81.!. lUu did you not give that as a iviison for not ivMuletii.g your Reiismis wiiy Ik- I . .' 1 . 1 o -ST 1 • 1 •■ 111 . I ' I (■ 'lid not i(>intt'i' laccouiils at gie.'iter length r-- IN o; I said it would be a great >ieai ot .,ccomits in ni.uft 1-3 'lliei' to me to render them at gieatcr length. il till!. •1814. Wa-^ the iioihor wiiicli was occasioiu'd by having no book- |ii'e|iei ihe reiiS'U lor your noi lendei ing tlietii indilail? — 1 can answer llliat, liiit I woul 1 sooner answer it by saying •i>i."). .Vuswer that first? — No. *)81(), What WIS your reason for not rendering them in detail? — Biir.u c I a kcd Mr, Nixon if it would do as well the other way, and he I Milt it A-oald. Thiit is my reason.. 28 ALLOWAY 434 NIson'M Pnr- No detail Ijy Nixon's perinis- slon. TIk! way Nixon and witiioss luinptM) tlie accounts. Both had details. Another reason tor not giving d- tails. Nixon Kot no advantag(^ from these eoulracts. 0817. Then it WiiH hy Mr. Nixon'n dii'ections that you did not ioimIo,. tlicm in detail ? — Nut by his dii-ectioii, hut by his poi'tnirtflioii, (5818. I do not .see much ditlbronce ; it was in consoqiienco of hi, docinion. You .'•nl)ntiillod the sul^joct to him for his docisioii, und he decided that tlioy need not l^o rendered to Iiim in detail? — [ submittal my figures to him and his figures corresponded with niii;e. '['hcif was a certain number of horse.s — there were eighteen lioise-^ in onolo! 1 think — and I would say to Mr. Nixon : " Ther- is so niucli Miimiy- this would be S^'f) Ji|jiece," and lie had the same aniounl of rimiu'v 1 had myself, and he taid : " Yes, that would do." (3819, Then it was in consequence of his decision on that subjcii iiun the actount was not rendered in detail ? — With his dilution ii w,,, done. 68"^0. Was that not his decision — had he not an npportiiiiiiv m| deciding- ?~ You know better than 1 do, .Judge. G821. J)id he not decide that it was unneceasai-y ? — Ilo gave ine hi^ sanction to do it. 6822. Do you think he gave his sanction without deciding?— Wc I, it would not appear to me. When you ^ay a man gives his saiiction, ii i> a diU'crent thing tiom a liecision. 1 think he gave his saiu-liou to ii, (j82;-j. Now, as a matter of fact, did yon not go ovei- the account wjii him so that he might comjiare yoiii- figures first without i;iviiiir him all the dettiils? — lie had them hitn.self: the saiiie details as 1 had. (;824. But did he have them?— Yes. «825. So that you and he boih h:id the details ?— Yes. 6826. Do 1 undei'stand that before you made u[) you:' aci;()uiit >h m-- ing an average, you would submit to him a statement sllo\vill^ the details of ditt'erent prices ? — Yes. 68-7. 1)0 you know what more bother it would have b>H'n to liave left the statement in that way insteail ot' ])utting it in a gross vmn, because \\ seems that all this bother which wtis occa.-iiuied you liy not having a book-keeper, was not livoided after all, inasmuch ;is you hud submitted all the details to Mi-. Nixon? — 1 did not think it \va- -d J! uch a ]);irt of my lai>inoss to keep the details. I thought i! wa-- nine his business to keep the details. ti8i8. You say that he got no iidvantage from any of liiose conti';ii!>.' N'es ; emphatically so. 682!). Was the advantage altogethei- your own ? — Yes ; altogcthor. OSJO. Did you m d (iimily? — Never. 68o2. Did y(>u lead him to understand (bat you were to hoconira connection of his? — Never. He never understood anything of the kii'l. 1 never dreamed of such a thing, nor he eitlier. 6H;38. Thoi-e was no under ,tanding on his part that you should liecome | his sofi-indaw ?— No ; there was not. 1 do not think that lias anylhini; to do with the Pacific Eailway. I do not think it is a lit subject to lw| discutt.-ed in connection with the Pacific Ituilway. 485 ALLOWAY I'lil 111 V"iir i Also worki'd for Rowan & Siitlier- laiul. 9IlxoN*H i*iira vey«»riilil|t— \)^^\. Ml'. Nixon was an ofilcei' of iUo Cunailiiui Pacilic RailwfV, and Bnyi-K iiorae«« we witsli lo know his luotivon in doiiliii^ as ho did wilh you?- His AccaiiatH. ,|;iui,diUM's were not. 6^3,'). I liavo aliiidod only to him and his m ttivos. If they woro im fio'uniK wiui* intoioslc'd wo oiiLTJit to know it? — His motives were not intereslotl. "'""""1 "."'' t;S36. That is what 1 am enquiring into? — The_y wore n')t. (,'837, Did you oxi)0('t in these other accounts foi- horses sold that lu' would keep t'ulhM- piu'ticnlars than you furni-hed in your hills? — I expected so. I supposed he kept os lidl particulars as I did. tJ888. I am a'd \'our commission, witiiout mentioning any name, can voii >ay for whom that horse was bought ? — No. (!iS4S. Your account does not mention it. liook arid see (handing the uccoiiut ) ?— (Atlei looking at the account) : I expect that tiorsc was lor Mr. McMillan. Qi^V'K l)ocs it ajtpear there? — No; it says above : " One j)air of holt- bles." fjj^no And }ou think that the horse was foi- tl e same person who gf»t the liobbles? — I thiid< so. o8f)l. I)o you think that was siiilicienlly partieular without stating tor whom the horse was got ? — 1 uo not know ; 1 got the money tor it, and that is all 1 wanted. 0S.")2. 1 understood 3'ou to say that 3'on believe your accounts were romU'ioil with sufficient carefulness ? — Yes; the}- were rendered with ^ufhciiiit cjtrefiilinss. Ji 1 sold ati article lo you. and 1 londered an iK'couiit for it lo you, that is all the particulars that were necessaiy. 1)^53. it was not necessary if those accounts would he afterwurds subject to ii.spection ? — 1 was not partieular whether they were or not. 1)854, Do you remember? — I do not know that I thought of it. 1 may have thought of it at the time, and 1 may not, 1 am not sure. ALLOWAY 436 Nixoii'ti Piir- veyorNliiit— Manner of ascor- taln1ne (here was a way-bill sent with iIk- fnMi;lii. G8(il. Who would make out the way-bill? — I would makooiit dh.. and Mr. Nixon another. 68G2. I)o you mean that in every instance when freighting Wiis(|oiii there would l)e a duplicate way-bill at this end of the line ?— Yos ; |i,i the Paciiic liailway. H8(J3. In charging for the use ot teams, to any pai-ticular camp t'.n • instance, how would you satisfy Mr. Nixun of the time charged tor?— What camp do you mean ? 6Sf!4. In the account of May Ist, 187(j, the first item is "two lonm- tocampC?" — Yes; the receipts that the teamsters would got would be dated, and I would got as much as I could after the date to come back empty from Mr. Nixon. That is to say if they left here on the 5th .and the receipt was dated the lOth for the delivery of the loacl,tli;ii would be tlve days, and 1 would get three days most likely for comint; back. That would be al^out eight days for wherever it was to. 6865. Do I undoi'stand that you would get a certificate from the officer at the other end of the line as lo the date you arrived there ?— Not from the officer — anybody who was there in authority, whether he was an oflScer or private, 6806, Ho would be an officer for that purpose? — I suppose he would. Perhaps he would, and perhaps he would not. 6867. Be good enough to answer my questions conectly. I am asking you how you would satisfy Mr, Xixon as to the correctness oi the time occujiied in carrying that freight ? — By presenting him with a receipt, 6868, From whom would you get that receipt? — From the person in charge out there, authorized to receipt them, 6S((9. But how would he know of the time oceuj)ied in returning?— The way-bill would b-j dated from here, Winnipeg, sueh a "ate, :ind then he would know. If ti'aiii flvo days goln;:; to ohjectlve point, '■ ■would lio allowed for return. Bill for teaming, 6870. Ami the return ? — Yes ; ho would allow mo so many diiv:^. Ifl iirccdayV vvas tivo days going out, he would allow me as an average tlweo iiuvs for coming back. 6871. You have a charge on April 4th, 1S7(), "thice teams to crossing," what ero.ssing does that mean ? — How much is the ohai'go? 6872. Is there more than one crossing ?— (Looking at the bill) : That is the crossing at the lower Fort at Selkirk. 437 ALLOWAY veyui-Mlil|i« .Hcsiiiritr< CnrryiiiK MhII«. < 'oiitnict for curryiiix miilN east. t]:i':'>' II'JW fill- is tliiit ?— Twonty-two milos jitul oii^ht chains.J i;s7l. Aiiotlior chai'ijo, May Ist, 1870, in foi- a •' mo-«sont(ov to Mi-. llitiiiel, 815," Have you any idea \\n\v thu mosscMiiror was cDnvoyod 10 Mf. Hiiuiol ? -- 1 lliiiik ho wont, alon/^ (lio IVnibina Mi-andi to Kmei'Mm. Ij.ST'). Willi a li()rs(i? — I do not I'oniurnlior ; I do iiol think so. i;87 ;. How fur woidd that Ijo about ? — Thoro and l)acU ? ; iS77 Vos ; oithor way ? — I'J'I milos, thoro and bu(d<. "any cUiys would it occupy a man witliouL an ;iiiini:il ? — ! could not toll you. It was all wattM- botwoon boro and thoiv. $15 IS (diai'go — Buckltoiiril. IPii'iKlilliiK* Item lor wndlnt; out liorst) mid cart to Kiiici'son, AcCOIIIltMa Item lor tnins- porttnK Htort's to Nortli-West Practico as to Toucht'i-H. (I8IM!. I iiin ii^kinj; yoii wliclhor tlii> \vn.- ii ln-l lor niic liiuii iisii:i|''__ I siipjiOMO it was I'roiu the piico. (5897. lluvc yoii jiiiy rt'iolk'i-tion ol i( ? — No. 6bOH. VVhtit was the prit'c of a usuiil out' ?— 8>"0 or ^Hf). »)S!I!». Was tliis Ji ii-u»l price, or an iiiiusiuii prico?— It \va> a iimi;,i price. ()!M)0. Do yoti know wiietlier tiiis l»iicU-bi anl thai you soM n. .\h. Wall was oi' heller <|ii!iiily than tlie avertioi. (|iijilily ai thai lime?— | (h> not know what the (iiiiiiily ol'it was at llie lime, e.xeept from juii^ii,ir fr<»in the i)rico ; it was a ^ood hiiek-hoartl. tilM)l. Wtis it better than Ihoiiveni^e hiiek-noard sold at tiiai liinc?— It WJis a f^ootl averag(* hiick-huaid, liecause the averti^o Wiis iiicity n(.(,il (!90U. Do yon renmnihor iihoiit the distance o\ or which yon cairirl mails to section 14 generally? — No. 6'M)',\. Would the distance vary from time to time? — I tliink so, (5904. D) Juno, 1S75, yon make a cluirge tor sending out a hor.so ainl curt to Kmerson, including e.\penscs and wages of man, $2'J. HO, do you romomber that transaction? — No. ()!)()'). liiivo you any idea how long it jirohiibly took for a nmii lu go thei'c with a horse :ii:d cart ? — ?22.fjO would be ahoiil .seven days. ()!<()(). And woidd yon charge hetwoen $H and §4 per day? — Ve>, s,; or $H.50 per day. ()!»07. I-)o I understand that yon estimate the distance because of tlli^ ])rico? 1 asked you about how long it would take? — 1 did not ostitrmie the distance; l»'it the time liiat it would tjike. 6908. And you Judge by seeing the price now ? — No. (JHO'.l. Could you not judge without seeing the ])rice? — Yes; T couiil. U would 1)0 ah'jut six days. Kmerson is about si.xty-threo miles, aiul it would be about that time it would take. t]910. In June, lS7f), you charge for four teams, eleven djiys each, for transporting stores to the Nortli-West Angle; can you explain what evidence you would be likely to have to satisfy Mr. Nixon of the cor- rectness of that charge? — The receipt is the only thing, uidess some oi' the engineers were with them ; of course there were. 6911. Wlien you presented those iU'Counts containing siicli items would you give uj> the receipt to Mr. Nixon? — Yes; the receipt was the voucher for the item. I would have a voucher for ])relty nearly eveiy item. ri912. Do you say it was your practice at that time to furnish him vouchers for most of the items in each aicount? — Any items that vouchers could be fuinishe• >rNlil|i - ■■111 r.iil Ih' \vi;v-l(ill wniild lint silow ihi' l.iriu' v<>'i woro kt'iit on •"''•'hIiimiu. .1,, iniid'i'— Tlio ivcoi|)t ot till) vviiy-l)ill would ho tor ho many diiy-t on |L. Kiail n"i'i,i^ <"•' '• iIk'Ii lie would luivii to lie tlic jiid<;(' of t lu' ihiiiiIkm' „iii;iV-< <•" '!"' ''*""' ''"iiiiiiu t'Jick. it I stui'tml I'l'oni licro on tlic ritli ot ' ill,' nioiitli i' would lie 0'\ tlio way-Kill " Winnipcif, M ly f)tli." H' 1 ir>i i.itthcit' ill livcdays the man \V(»iild rocoip* it. or say tlial I anivdl on [lie null, thai would .sliuw tiw days. (jlli'). Stni|n)so you did not call hit atlontiori to it until aCN'ryoii ivi'it till' oa day or I wo ? — Tlioiowoidfl Ik; no supposition alioiii it, it IcuiiM not be. ilOlil. TIk'H tlierocoipl ilsolf would not show it? — Tho ivcoiid itst'lt MiiiM >li"\v '<•• illii7. No tlio I'l'Ci'ipl would not show it without lii') liict h'in^ o\i- iJeiiti'liii i-oiiio way that you had dolivorod it lis soon as you could. It ii.ii^h li:ivc hiMMi nioi'o profilahio to you !o wail thorc a coiiplo of tlay> juifo I' liclivt'i'iii^ tho ^oods ? — I could not wait there. In seiidini; stiill' (iit 1 1 ihe North-Wost An^de tlioro is only ono house, and a man is not ii'iiiiLT t'> allow :v team to stand ihoio for a day or an hour if ho can help ii riiii' is I he way we do business. (iijS. Were tho lioods which \ou transp n'lod weiiihed at the othor "i- ii mi«|' hi- leiidotlllO line C — Vos. i.Hmt .n.l ol Hue. i;:i|;t. At \\ 'unipcirand the points to which you wi'ro taking iIumii ? l-llit wii Ion' '.>y the hundred it was 1120. Ill takiiit;' gooils to Wat I'orta^o, do you lemomber whcthoi ItiitTDwas a per.M)!! there who weijLjhed ihein? — Yes. l.i-l. Please look at your uecoiint ot the Ibth June, 1S75, and say lum lor iniyiim hviii'licr till' liorscs sold thoio wore horses boun-ht by the Govornmont, rlll'TTmr-'ii'i'l!' '""' wiit'tlicr they were horses of vour own which you .sold? — I rould <'"'i>'i'i-^-^ "" •"• 1 . -I'll ■ ,1 1 • ■ . .1 ., wfiilil 1 liiiik wcio Ii siy ; II looKs as it they were my own (looking at the account). his own. lilL'i 'flioii can you explain why yon charge commission on hor.ses $i2coniiiii«8ion. [d-?-! do not know. Is $12 charged in that account? ti.ij.l I showed you the account? — I did not sou the commission I'l'sU. If you found the commissior) there would it make any liiitVix'iico ? — Yes. liUJo. Then you can look ui il again (handing the aoccMint to witness) ? |-uUier looking at ihe account) : Someof them must liave boon mine. ii'.'2(]. IIow many horsi's have you charged for in that account? — llheiuare only two horses. 'il'27. Xow what do you say ? — There were none of them mine — tlu-y |ffeii' bouLrht on commission. t)i^2S. And the reason ^-ou s;iy that i.s becaii.se you see the comniis- Ihoii cliar^ed ? — Yes. •ti'2!'. I)i(l vou do freigh'i:\L; ''^:' ''e Fort I'^ances Li>cks and for .^Il•. r«»ri Fruiicot iHugh Sutherland at the same rule that you did it tor ^Mr. 2si.\on ? — Kit'iit'JiTiHK. fi930. Was that rate established l)y competition with other persons ? -I beliove there was a year or so that contracts were not made on [iitTountof none to go, and wiionever there was \ charged higher for it. ALLOWAY 440 m Mlxoii'K Piir- v<'yor>tli*|» — FiM-i t''ri«n<-"M Lock. K«'lii(i<»iiN %*ilh Miilli<'i't-.iiil. All mill' r ■.|;iM(l- iim u i' h Nixon .t Siilhci'liiliil thiit wlialpvcr line paitl lor Iri^uht- liiu 'III' <>t lii'i' would psi.v. C'liiiiil sliiii down b< foil' wil tii'ss and siiihcrlanil roomed In siinn' iioiiso. 6U',il. Was tlioio ail}- iindoi'.standini^ beUveon ;, ou ami Mr. Siitln!ilm„i and Mi-. Ni.Koii tlial whatevt'i- one jtaid llic f'.rn!!- should pay ?— \\,,^jj I not ill' Pac'itic Railway contract I got Y r. iSiithorlaiui's couliact. (i}i;{2. \V'uio you and Mr. Sutlierla'.d conncctcJ in any wav ni biisiness ? — Never, at that time. •):]3;j. Did you live together? — Xot at that time. ^'}'X^l. Did yon at anj' time diuingthe time you diiwoik tor tli.- Pa'ilic Railway and Fort Krance.s Lock.s ? — I do not thinlv so. I nii"|it s:iy no. 1 think the canal wari shut down before he and 1 ro-nioJ iiiiln.. house. f!'.^;'). Sinc'j thill you have been connocted in business toi^-ctluT?— X,. <;'.):>(). Did you not make a conti-act f'oi- any work togelhei' ?— Xcvoi' i't'Xr,. Why did ^'ou s;>y that you had not been conneeteil in hiisiiit'>, a' ihal time? — Well, I have done thini.(.s for him and ho has done tl Sul lii-rliind and V. li iii'ss '•'iiinerl- od louftlii'i' in l>ii' Never Jointly intt'rt'Ntcd ill any trKiiMicttnii with S*ullicrlHiid. But there Isu bulWhiiif In Win- Ill pit' w liieli tiiey liiillt on .joint aeeoiint. (i!(.'5S. Have 3H)ii not bee i jointly connectel in business toyoUiui .'- I was for about a month. (J5W9. Then why do you say never? — I len. him some tnonev t^ do business, and after a month I sold oui to him. (imO. During that month you were interested together? — 1 ijo iint think I ever t.!iou';ht I was interested with him. 6!)4l. Did lie think so? — I do not know. fi942. Did you ever have reason to suppose that he thought so ?— Xu, (!ft4:{. Do you say now tiiai you and he were never jointly iiitcieMi'l in any transaction ? — Yo8. (1914. You say that? — I say that, yes. I might say that there i> a j building here that Uo arn! I built togoihor, it ^-ou call that business. ♦if 4"). On joint account ? — Yen; 1 do not know whether you call ilm )usinesH. ((94 !. It wiis not for pleasure altogether, was it ? — It wasspecul lie and I built a builtling togav yo iiasc tliril. Wliat giu''^ in there. II suppose: do you not know the nalurc of the liii-.iiie,--ornhlp— (iOal, Curlotori— I think it was to Fort Polly you inlended to take *'«t'i«i»«i"K. lein. but you left thorn at Carloton ? — Yos ; I loft thorn at ('arleton. (1955. How tar is it to Cailotoii from Winiiipotc ? — 547 miles. )i7 miluH. i,i).)ii. That is llio (listtiii.o you think to the ])laco at which you loft ihem y— Yos. (i957. Wli:it was the distaiieo to the place at '.vhich ytw wore enL';ap.;od to leave ihotn ? — Aix^iU 8()(( miles, I thmk, from memory. 1 ihiiikyou will liiil the exa 't 'li.slaueo in that riccoiuit, it 1 am not mistaken. 6958. Do you mean in tho account which 3'ou ron icred, oi- in ti«^ui'e.s .(Itorwards ? — In tho account whi(-h I rendered. I do ikH know that it i- there, hut I know we Htjured tho distance. J do not knmv whether it is in the account or not. (p1i5.I. Do you tind it ligureJ theri; (handing witiios.* the account)? — (Lookin;; at tlie account; : No; 1 do not. (IIH)O. You were mistaken about that? —Yes; the way we arrived at TimuvfriiKc prica thi' 2-i cts. credit was hy saying if il was woi-th 11 cts. togortOl) miles, ''•"riv.-tl ut. what wa.i it worth to go .')((0? 1 rcniombor the trun^jioriation }»;.irti- lulaiiy; 1 had go;Hl reason to. ii9(jl. The amount actually paid to j'ou was oidy a pi'oportion and not an excessive j)ro[> jrlioii of tho whole a.mount? — A very snnill [)ro portion. I)9li2. Leas than you ougiit to have got, in your opinion ? — Less than I oiiifht to htivo got-- a good deal. ()9(il{. In Marcdi of the same year there is an item for transporting Ml, )|)lies to Vi(!toria, Saskatchewan, and which were not iranspoi-tod ;llthe way, hut were loft ut Oarleton ; was that Hettle^), was another for $:iOO or $;iOO, 1 think. (J!)(iO. What Horvice was ijorformod for tho hirL'o amount? — Weekly, w.-ckiv tooon- to{.'ontra<'t 15 ; it was $550 or SHOO a month. .ji(;i>i)ii ii'icntn. G1I7II, l)o you rcmembcrduringwhattimeth.it <'iiMLract at the larger lato extended ? — I do not. I I'emember there were tenders called for aiitl 1 gol, the contract. liini. IV) you wish lo '-a)' anything fin ther ah >ut the ovidence you have a! re.'uly given ? — I'l.vcept tliat 1 would like to a>iv tho lepoiters ii'it 1(1 |,ut in that person liiiy about .Mr. Xixon and hi.-< family, I do not Jiiiik it is a proper thing to apj)eai' in the papers, and I do n(^t ALLOWAY 442 IVI«oi>*H Piir- think it is a proper thini; to ask rne, as [ cannot see it has anv C(,u. nccti' II will) tiio Pacitie liailway. 1 cannot help stiyintj so ht-foi,. [ loavo tiie Itox. The Chumium : — It ^y\\\ havo to i-eniuin now. lift- WILSON. F«»rt Vi-iiiicvM Sl>|t|>li<-N. In ston' !il Fort Friuici's. KnnJii;" il l),v SutliorlaiKi III sprini; <>(' l>7ii. G. M. Wilson, sworn atul examined : Bij the Chair wan: — (inT2. Were you at any time connected witli any transaction con- ceining the Imsiness at Fort Fi-ances Lock ? — I was. t)!>73. In what capacity were you inlei'estod ? — I was in the sldiv; ii, the (iovettinient store. H!)74. When were you engaged ? — I think it was some time in th, spring of lS7. What was your dut}' in the store ? — To give out supplier aiil attend to tlie service of the men, whatevei' they re<|uired. K.pt books whi.-ii j;()77 Did you keep books?— Yes. )iri' III possession •' ^ of 7I>. To wiiom did 3'ou give them up? — I lett them witli lliediovorn- nu.'iit. tiiey hek)ng to tlie Government, and I have nothing to do with them. (iHSU. Who had charge of them aflor you leit ? —Mr. Tjogan, the store- keeper. !. IFow long did you remain in the service of the (loverniiiont in that cap:icity ?— Until the following spring, the spring of IS77. 6H8 . Was there any persofi in the store over yon ? — Yes. 6'.>8I^. You had n88. Did they dis|)Ose of them to an}' person except iho pi'i'sDiis employed liy (ioveiinnenl ? — Only to employes of the (inverniueiit. (I!I8'.>. Was there a sejiarate acount k(>pt toi- each of the oniplnyo^?— Yes. (!09i). And goods got out of the store would he charged? — Yes. H!>!)1. Was it your duty to settle all these accounts with the lahourers? — No. r,W-l. Who.se duty was that ?- That was done at the houd offire. My duly was only to ftlrni^h the accounts to the head ofhce. Ill Kcrvlco of Ci(l\ ITIIIIII'm iiiitd spring 111 1S77. IVfr. I Dir.ni Ills fiUlMTlni urJlcir. 443 WILSOM Furl Krain'i'H 8ii|t|»lic.«. 01). Tlion, from tinu; to tiino, you i-oruieivil stateinoiitri to tlic hciul K,.,Kii,n(i stuii'- 1 4;... lit' llio trooi-ls i^ot by each of tlio omployo.s ? — I'^very moiitli. in.nts to Ik a.i I • niontli. i;iii4, Sottlotnont.s betweoii the (jovernment luid tlio pt'i'soiis om- i,,iC'l took jtluce at tho ho. id otiicii '/--Yes ; at the head ollice. tlliH"). Do you mean the principal office whicli was at the L(n'l witli the boats ami [111 r tiling's ? — Yes, eveiythiiig ; ail liail td i-ojtort there. ()t course Kiniimc these accounts woull be rendered (jftenor, if they wcie iiir ui> with the men. hD'.iT. Hut the ])ractice was to i-ondei- tlietn at least once a moiilli ? — ](.; s.)inctiines ot'lener it necessary, if a man was neltiin^i; uj). i;i:i8. What chaiiire tool< place in your traiisiictions with the CJovcrii- j,,ii; vou say in the sprini^ of lb77 you euiled this engagement? — iy.- own account. TrniiKiert-iii'i- or (•(»v«-riiiii4'iit ;'i;>!i, Then, what happened ? -The (rovei-miient, ;.r Mr. Sutherland, in spriujioiisTT iiiMeciiled todo away with the store. 1 think a lunnber ()t" parties f^,"'^'^l''iyi\Y"th'e'' a iiitf started stores there, and we used tu have a good many com- ni'n'^>''"-P'o'{ '>f ^. .1 I .1 I I -1 ! . I Htori', till' provl i|;.;i l> h'oin the men, one way and another, and we decided to tio away sions hcinic jriiiit. The furnishing ]iart of the store, it was decided to do away '•'■t"tii'> on my own ai-coimt. ijusiticss on nis ?iii.!. Do you lemeinber what you gave for it ? — I do not remember jii.t \\w ligiiros. 14 Can you tell near about ? — No, I cannot; it is so long since I ■ikiM at the thing. ;iifl5 ('an you tell within $1,000? — I should think it would be, i»er- I'rici' pai.l >-oiiit; ,,^ 8:!,U00 or 84,000. *:!.MK,or >i,ih.u. ;iili(;. llow was the value of them arrived .it?— The value was in.w ihIci' kirivi'd al from invoices. arriv.d at. I'l'i". But you would lirsl take stock an 1 abcertain the ipianlhies? — K-: >lock was taken. i'liS .Viid you apj)lied to those t the cost — whatever the goods cost. i'HJli. Adding freight and charges? — In .some cases ijiere was; in niiir ta^es there was not. it|il. I u what cases would you not add freight and charges? — 0;i tlu^ ibisli. lull. 1) ) you remember what rate you pait' on the cost? — I do not. "012. Did you pay the full cost ? — Yes; and some of it was a }irelty l-i'l lot to pay co.->l for. WILSON 444 f ml KraiiecK lAM-k — Nll|>|lllfH Traii<«l<'r<'ii('e of (•4»v4'riiiiiriil Ml If liOKiiii A Thomp- son till' viiliiiilors w lio ai)i>ral8i'»l tlii'i|ii)intill('siiuil piicis ol Koods tiaii>Ii'riH'(l to ■Witness. 17. You had no negotijitions with him? — No; simply to Imv Oie >tock. It was Mr. Sutherhxiid ottered the slock for sale. 7018. l)id you agree with him as to tlie rate at which you \v,i; pa3- the whole cost? — Xo ; 1 was to pay the cost. 701!^. Ihtit was arranged with liiin ? — Yes. 7020. When \ou purchased what you did, vvluit goods did they retain (o dispose of on the Government account ? — They kept nil the provisions. 7r21. T suppose you got a detailed account of the goods piirfliaKwl at tlie time ? — Yes; it was jdl done in detail. 7022. I>id 3'ou keep u copy of it ? — I raa}' have it; [ am nut quite ]>ositive. J left Fori Frances in July, 1878, or ahout 1st August, IS^d 7023. Then you were in business on your own account some liftot.'n months? — I think it was about llio 1st July, IS77, thatl got pG8sos>ion of the slock, and it would bo about July, 1878, vvnen I left — aljjiii al year. 7024. I thought it was in the spring of 1877 that yim left ?— Spiiii:; out there is June generally. 702.'). Besides the goods which you got at the time of the traiiMer, odier goods arrived, did they not, which went into your possos^io^? — Yes; the statement I made there, fibout the \aluert of the wlmle, Would include them. 702tl. lUit i! wjiM iirrangod that goods on the way to the Govcniiiioiitj stores should ]>p-s over to you ? — Yes ; furnishiiigs. 70-7. Was there a se|)ariite invoice made out for those goods wKA arrived afterwaitis {n you ? — 1 think that they arrived there ai)Oiil llic time I took posse-sioi) . 70'»8. Some invoices arrived tifteiwiir Is, I am informed? — I ruiildj not tell; the (lovcriiiiient books would show, 1 suppose. 70i!). I am asking whether you had separate and subsequent •■.;;ii.'-j mcn!>, showing tho.se new arrivals after the tii>t invoice of tlic liistj transaction ? — Ye8. 70;)0. Do you think you have those ? — I may have some of tlioiii, IJ brought my paj)ei's wiUi me tmd threw them into my slorc-lioiiH' thej are there I will be happy to ju'oduce them. 70.{1. After _y()U became proprietor of this, store about July, l^Ti was any person interested with you in the store? — No. 445 WILSON Fort FranccH ;i)o2. W'liat system was adopted, aftoi' that time, about goods got **"i»i»»«'^- ii,n yu. L>y pci'sons engaged by f'le Government? — No system what- ijvi' 1 liad to look out for n)yself. '1)31 Vou did sell goods to persons employed on the works ? — Yes. ;ii.']4. I low did you get your pay? — I got my pay hy oi lers on the Men pai'i iiim by p;,viii:islor, IVom the men. niust'er°" ''"^" 7113.'). Did it sometimes happen that the paymaster paiil you. without loniei's tVoni the men? — No. ;ii3(i Would you always settle tirst with the pui'ehasor of the goods, liiil i,'*'t iliiections from him? — Yes, I got instiuctions from tliom ; •jj, V .-oiiietinies gave it verbally, Imi it was done generally through Lnitiii order. 1 wish I hate;id of buying. They had the stores on the way, and if I had |!liei,'oi"is in the shop 1 nevei' refused. ;il,;lt. What would they l)orrow from you ? — Provisions. ston- ix.rnjwod , * provisions. T(i40. 1 hey did not deal m any alter you purchased the goods from I'liam?— Nothing but provisions. They may have bought some sheets, .1 Waiikots, or something of that kind from me. 'M. And was this borrowing only recorded in the memory of those Ifhoffot them on behalf of the Government, or was it entered in the |Vi"k,s? — It was entered in the hooks the same as another article. TI142. If they borrowed an article would you charge it in yoiii- books ? ■ It wii-" charged in the books, and when it was leturned it would be |th;irgOii hack. VW'l So that .all those t'"ansactions would uppoai- rocoi-ded in your All trHiisaniuns aks?-Yes; an i',';Xs!*''' '" '"'" * iG'iveriiinent would be reco'ded. ?l4f Of course you did not feel sure that they recoi'ded it? — 1 |i>>uiiio that they did ; they should have done so. rU'). Si) f.irasyou know you have no reason to think it was not done? 1-1 beiiove it was done. 'W>. Do you I'emember some butter coming from Thunder Hay, lailiircs-dl lo the su|»erintendent, Mr. Sulherland, but allorwards going |l'i\im?— Not that I know of. di. .Vrc you aware that there has boon some rumoiir> abfiut such |r;.iiSirli(iiis ? — I never lu!:i:d any rumour of the butler transaction ; lait l!;ivf In aid other rumours. , Notnuiiin -n 10 1 1 1 -11 ■ 1 • 1-1 , . 1 ninioiir tlml uii it)l^. It has been said that a , and that the butter went to miuU-cimnsjod I, r i. 1 ,„ -^ ° and l)utlt'i(l«'- r— 11 IS lalse. llvered towlinoss WILSON 446 Woit FrniifFH 7-. 7050. About vvlwil quantity? — That I could not s;.y. I <.■,,( Iiiuti;,. „j many times from Thunder IJay. 7051. Would you ;,'ot it in each quantities as that? — I gMi |,|.,..(J lai'ge quantities of hutter — some very lart^o quantities. 'I 7l>r)2. Do you rcuunibor any arrarii^oment by which Imttci' \vl,!,li| had been intended at tirst for the (Joveiiunent store, hecaiiu j-iiiJ property before it reached the Locks? — Never ; there was iirver s'l a thint; occuned. 70r):5. The rumours that you allude to are j)robably ahoul vwuh' Yes. lidvcriiiiuMit 7054. What do you >ay about the rumours of the iu(!iit that, (■!i;iim,j,i boorii'oi'n wu^^^^^^^^ hands?— The}- b(»i'rowed some from mo and they rcturin'ti ii. [i 'y.^^ an.i rctiirncii It. oidy a small amount. I can, perhaps, cxolain liie rnattt^i- 'li'ii'dii.riiivtji you; I bought a beef tVo'n, at that time, f supj^osod the lluij- in |;,y| Co.; it was (hro\ijj;h one of their officers. It was in the vorv linJ weather, and the familit^s ha 1 nothiii'jf but pork, and somo nfilionil were golfing black-log ; they wore coinplaining that they woiil.; hj to have some beef. 1 got an opportunity of buying a beef, it WiJ mo;e than the lamiiies would use, two or throe limes ovor; ani [] agree! lo buy it and supply the families, piovided that the ftowrJ ment would take the rest and return it when their cattle cam iiil which tliey were vorv glad to do. F 705.J. Then they got it from }'ou and ri'turned it utteiwaiiU '^j Yes. ■<((5fj. Did that happen on moi-o than one occasion? — That wa.s ?— Y 7004. Do they appear in the books lo tho credit of tiic ti)ve ment ? — Thoy do. 7.:s l>y (JoviTii- iiniil srrvaiils 01 which fniKht iloiii.s rcjiuiur acconiits were ko\U. UT WILSON in Tliuii(l„f| I'ain,; y >:A never r.'iii| i:ilc!iuii.'^l| il. It 'V:iH '>l'on;fliiyto] Inilvin liiy I! vei'v liiil mo lit' iln.inj t!l'. It \V;tj| Vol' ; an he 'iilVcl"!- tlo e;im: iiij M'wariU '-I at vrns 'jiel i:-Ii a*. :irsfl any liv« liuii^h; ;il| ■ule?-Uol it! Tli'iii'leij ;lalilisliiin'al '— V.'>; ij 's I,'H;k aiilj 1 MIllU' iiVC I lie (iuvorn cm- ?— Yc liie ('iovel -0()(j. Thou }()ii huvo not 1)0011 lu^ai- oiioiiLrh to the h(H)l<-^ for yoti U |,iiiii' tliorn since ycni Imvo Ijoor supbd'tisiea '.'' — No. TOUT. Ai'o you aware tliut thei-e has huen soino niinotirs ahoul the TifiiS. iiiiiiiiK Port ►'rnmi'M H^Mk — .Hii|i|tlii!<«. II ol Kiient ? — No. 7071. It has been said thai the (jovernmenl clerks were not always Nfv«r aiinw.'.i i ;liei whai 0, Miul that they had such confidence in you that they h-t you laUc Vtiii wi'hel and allowed you to kt'ep account of it? — '1 heie was no im r.prfs.'iiiiiti ve * . . . "^ . . . * . .... I tf ( tn V't'rn moil I to store anil Inkc liiKxls wlicn siuli thing hajtpencd. 1 do not think the store-keeper would allow aiiviliiiiil ol tlu! Icind ; he is a very strict man. 71)7^'. I beli've Mr. Thonipsoti, who was foreman on the pirt of the (iiiveinnicnf for some time, bought some of th(> property or got some 1^1 (it the property : are you awaie of thtit transaction ? — Xoi that 1 know III I cdvcrniiioni lirt'si'iit. Ot. 7ll";5. Ditl you know thai ho IkuI got any ma hineiy of an}- kind ? — X(i; not that 1 know of. 1 have heard those liimtuirs; ihal. is all. 71)74. llaliort time, upon some tuuiri' occasion ? — .My jnivate books? "0711. No; the books of the (Jovernmi'ut ? — I htive no books of the rTiivoriiinent. TOHt). I rnetin your private books in which your charges for the (TOvoriime;it are, or your credit foi- thinirs returned by the fJovern- moiit ?-l woiilil willingly .show it to you in my presence. 1'ktkr ScTiiKiti.ANi), sworn and examined: By the ( hoi r man : — 7081. Where do you live? — In the city of Witinij>eg. 7082. llow long have you lived here? — Since 1873. 7083. Do you know Mr. Ni.xon, who wa? puymaster and purvoyor foi' the Canadian I'acitic IJailway ?- Vos, P. SUTHER- LAND. IVlxim's Pur- v« y«». .-Hliij) — NiipiilU-o. p. SUTHERLAND 448 BxtPiit oft nms- acMons. Nixoii'x Fur- vryors'ilp — ^nr^ t- • • i i ■ • i Hiipiiii< <. 70S L Ilavo you liiul any (rariHactions with hini ui that ('ii|)a('it\ ?_ Vos, m-lsTnnMirK "085. \Vli:i( was il„> iiat iinx.f tl..' 1 ransMcti.Ki,. ? -It wa- lari^'dy,,,, with Mxoii In till' contracts, aii:i in a y-i'oaL many instaufu^ ni'ivato nll^(•lul^^e.s -lli;iii> t;,i and ituicliiis.s(or the ( lOVOinmoUt. the Oov(!rnnK'nt. _,, , i, i i ^ r i • • i 70M) I>nt not. I»y toncloi' r — Lar^jjoly it was sunply pi-ivati' [m, ■l;^.^., 7<>S7 Xot l>y (••im|)(>titi<»n with o(hc!' parties? — Iri a i^i'<',i nmiiv in^lanci'-, yi'^ ; and in as many instance!-^, no. 70S8 When yitu sf!i!:ilv of private pui'chasos, yi»ii nii-nn ii-.i bv ihiIm, compotilion hut hy arr.ini^omt'nt with him alontj ? — Yos. 70H!). Ilavo you any idea, in roiinil nuniI)ors, of the whole .uiKiunt i.i your tr.'insaf'tions with him? — I eould not speaU advisedly witliMiit referenci' to old hooks; Imt it was a very lar^e jimount. lO'M). Would it he aiiywiiere in the tons of thousands, or only iri th. thousands ? — I (h) not think it would he in the tons of tiionsaiid>, hi' it would ho over thousands. 709i. Would it all amount to more tliaii 81<>,')l»() ? — My inipre>si„i, i. that i' would. Fh'st acquaint- lOO'l. llow did you lir>t lieeome ae(|Utiintod with hin. ?— Wliii," nncc wHh Nixon, rytii riiiiii; from a hii.sinesH visit to the east \ met Mr. Nixon on boanj one of the steanierrt — 1 helievo it wa.s the 'SidUirk" — and he inlrodiici'ii himself to mo there on the boat and i^ot aequainted with my witc His famil}' were not alotii^ with him, but he willi!)^ thiit I would be happy to receive him in my family; and hu Went to my wife and made the .same rerjuest to her, and .she duiniuiel. 70II3. I sui)pose you were not present? — No. 701)4. At all events you say he had an interview with her?— Yos. Nixon Koosto live 7095. What ril. 70!)7. None of his fatnily were with him? — No. 700"^. During- that period hud you dealing's with inm in Ids capariiy as jaymiister? — Not during his rc^idonee in the house. 701): . Whiit was your business during that time ? — 1 wa- (luding in wiiolesale provi.siotis and groeeiies. Nixon dealt with 7100. Did he deal willi voii on his itrivate iiecouiU duriiii:- the saiiie private account poi'iofl that he w;is (h-alitii;- With you on the puhlie bohtdt ? -lleilnl. during 1 lie sumo -i.,. ni i . ■ i- i i i i ■ i ■ • |if'rlo • r ■ 1 111 i I • V«'J-Of.|>>|» - 7103. "11^ '•■ uii(loi'sU><)u timt lio was to pay that private account iii su|i|ih>s. !#) never an ini'lerstandiii^' at any tiino. llo jjll,ir not ? — TI)cro wjpt never an iin summoned to appear before the Committee. 7112. What happened l»etween you and Mr. Nixon then? — When I Tii.nieiKi.io.iiiia I II ^1 Lj. -^ J • Ul A 1 1 • ^ • i. II * llCCOUIll III tull. was summoned I thought it advisable to render his account in tull, from ik'limo that he commenced to that date; and he came to visit me and iie!>aiii to me : "Is that account not settled upon your books?' I Nixon caiicii Mad [aJmilted that it was settled upon my books; but, on the other hand, it rhl'ftpomelhing in that neighbourhood, and took his note ior the balance, t'ook*Nix<>n'.s'nota Ipayablo at a future date. 'o'' ''-ii'inf'". ill.'). The notes were settled Hubse(iuently ? — ^os ; all except the ['ikuuiit. Of course I discounted it very liberally. IlKi. Voii mean discoiiiitc^d your open account? — ^'es. (117. But the notes, the}* were finally satisfied ? — Yes; tlu-y were |killy satisfied. 1118, During the time that he was boarding with ymi, was there Monoy f.>r ii...ir.i ny understanding that he .should ])a3' you for bijard ? — No; although uVaTNi-NonwIlnUl [liter boarding with us for some time, he actually tendered, or made Kf»- |eri([iiiry what the amount of his board was ; and my wife being anxious logetbim away from the house refu.sed, and I refused, to accept any- liiiig, thinking that he would take that for granted and leave of his iwn accord. SUTHERLAND 450 Illsoii** Fnr- v«'yornhlp— Nii|t|illeN. Nixon Hiil(l>i<> coiilil not pOMBlhly Hta.v ami nol pay, liiit III- .stHvcrl. Itoard iifvi'i- piilil lor. rheqiU' l'or,$l'iti loi' Rlelwli reliiiMi- (mI to Mrs. Nixon, AVItncss irot two Klfljfhs at the time, one for the eiiulnecrs and the otlier fur Nixon. I'aid only lot- Hl<'li;li fiirnislicd to i'ii);lnuci'H Nixon aware that clKMine had hern I'ltui iii'il. He had no oh.iec- tion. (ioverutnent HOeonnt the reason for ihls tM^novolener to Nixon. Nixon ••lalined the riKht to large diseountsoii his private aecMuintK. 711!). Did ho propose to loiive ? — Ho Haul lio opuld not po»«il)lv ^t^\ hikI not pay board. * 7120. Did yon nsHoiit to that ? — Voh. 7121. Thon ho wont away 1 siipposo ? — No. 7122. How loii^ aftoi" that did he Htuy ? — ilo stayed on until some time in April. 7123. How many raonthw would that bo? — From October to April 7124. After this conversation do you mean? — No; it might ho snttic time in December tho conversation took place, ami he wtayed mi umil Ajtril. 712r). For that period has he over given you any coinpoiisalioir'-. ^B I'y ''Ci"ef '^"' No. ■ 712G. Do yon remember any ti-ansaction botwton yon and him about a cheque from liim to you ? — ^'es. 7127. What was that for?— That was for a sleigh; but i retiimd the chei|ue to Mrs. Nixon, or it was sent to tho house at all ovoiils by one of my dorks. 7128. Do you remember the amount of that ? — In the neighbourhuoi of 8150. 1 could not exactly specity the amount, but I recolle:-! well th;i' 1 got two sleighs at tho time, one foi- the engineers ami the otlieif'.r him. 712n. Was this che(|ue for the one sleigh you got for him? — 1 was paid simply for tho sleigh that was fnrnishod to the engineers. 7130. Do you mean that tho cheque covered the price ot boili sleighs ? — No. 7131. Only the one sleigh that he got himself? — Yes, 7132. Do you know whether that came to his knowledge atunCf; that you had returned the cheque ? — Ho was aware of it at once. 7133. What makes you think he was aware of it at once? — The liui that his cheque, given on the Ontario bank, I think, was i-eturnod to him. 7134. I >id he ever speak to you about it shortly after that ? — Staicely ever. 7135. Did ho object to your .sending his wife tho cheque ? — No; Ik- had no objections. 7136. Was there any reason why, in addition to board being i,'iveh without pay, yoti should make any gift to any one of his family ?— Tin re was really in truth none, only that the Government account w!U an account that wo regarded valuable, oven if wo did not make a profit on it. To a person in large business ready amounts of money were most valuable, and we regaided that it would be better at least to hsivo an oitlinary share of the patronage of the Crovcrnment, even if we were not making anything out of it. That was my only object. 7137. Did ho make any request to you about your throwing off iiny of your account at any time, either as a discount or otherwise /—He | always mentioned that it was customary, according to mercantile rule, | that a person purchasing largely should get a largo discount upon any- thing tnat they wanted privately for themselves. 451 P. SUTHERLAND ;|,'iS. Do you moan puichasing largely upon public account? — Yox. ■;13'J. That would give him a claim for reduction upon liin private ;i,(niint?— Yes; by the ordinar}' pructico of commeico. ;l.lO. Did ho mention wha' that peuontage wan? — No; mA par- ticiiiiii'iy- ;ltl. It was not a question of percentage? — Xo ; not ])articular!y a , ii.siinii ot percentage at all. ;142, Then do you way that this balance of his privati- accoun' iiiiiiiined written ott'arid unsettled until you wi>i'e sumrnonc; I hcfoie the* I .iiiiiiiittee on Public Accounts ? — Yes ; until I was made aware of that khein;; summoned. 711'}, Ami after that time, when you maile a I'uriiishing goods to the Government on account of the I'acitic ILrhviiy in a business-like way, or did he endeavour to ol)tain any advjiri- [iai;t?— 1 can oidy speak tor myself. 1 know that 1 telt, during all my inmsaclions, that it was luicessary to ))ropitiate him lo gel -i mo there wore ditUculties raised, and our terider was regaided as |irrii,'iilar. It had never been regarded so before. 'l.')0, Did you succeed in getting a contract on that tender? — No. "151. Are you aware of any instance whore other cUsilers projtili- ated him ? — I am satistied in my own mind. (152. I can hardly take that us evidence? — Ft is so patent with eveiy lone that every one knows it. The hist of my transactions seemed to be lilt the time that he made application to mo to buy a lot r prii- pitliitliii; \lxon in ontiT to Meciire sonu' ul Ihi' ' •ovcrniiii'nl iti'oiDiKc T('iiiliii:'d very low. I.nst tr.-inNjiction witli Nixon. Th« latter WHiitf^. \'>n iiicroy <»rnilt(>4 piivi,:,. accoiiiu, to sotnowliort* approiicliin^ omt-tliini ot tlio wlioUt, ha.s tlmi Htill ruinaiiKMi uiipaitl? — II Htuiuls iip'>n tho face of luy books vc' allhrniyh 1 have baiancetl tho at^count to protit uikI loss. 7HI1. 1 moiin has ho artiuiUy satisfied it l»y anythinij valiialii(>''_ No. 4itl NIxiin'H |irlviil<- acciiiiiit 7linu;« J{i)i)k-kf'(i>er. I/Ol't LookM in Aviii cr or lK7!t. IIiicl cliaix*' "I Oovfrnineiit JxHjks. Pystnii on wlilcU tiouk8 wore ki'pl. .Scpui'sito accoiml lor (iovcriiiufut. Stdfc. Ami lor traiis- j)ort. TrniiM|»iirt« J.vniKs Sutherland, pwoi-n and examined : By the Chairman: — 7I'>3. Wore you at any time employed by tho rrovernmonl in ron. necliori with any of the Pacific Builway works? — t was cniploycil n directly l»y the Governmont — that is, on tho Fort Francos Canal. 71(54. ^'ou mean tho Locks which wore built under the charge of vour brothel' ? — Yes. 7105. In what capacity were you employed? — I was book-ke'ei)er 716(1. At what time woi-e 3'ou first ougaged ? — In tho spring of iSTi, 71ti7. Was that at tho Locks? — It was at the Locks. 7HIS. Where do you live now? — I live luire in Winnipeg. 7H»1>. When diti you leave the Locks ? — 1 left (ho Locks in tho winici of I.S7!', or rather in December, 1878, just about Now Year's time. 7170. Who had charge of the books kept on behalf of the flovein- ment at that point? — 1 had. 7171. Had you any assistant book-keeper? — Occasionally I liail ; a portion of tho time 1 had none. 7172. Will you explain to me the general system of kcei)in^' tiic books connected with these works? — To keep tho accounts of all liic different works and to credit tho Depjirlment with all money cx)niiiijr. and to Ivcop a proper distribution of time and supplies, and all thal^mi of thing on the ditforent works; keeping everything straight in thai Avay . 7173. Did you keep a separate account for the Government store ?- Yes. 7 1 74. A nd for the boats ? the Governmont owned a l)oat ? — We diJ nnt j keep it for the boat; wo kept an account for tho transjjoi-t of siipplii'^ between Thunder Bay and Fort France-*. When vro did that suit (>{\ thing we charged it up to Transportaiion Account. 7175. Did you engage i)ersons for that Kpecial service? — Yes. 7170'. How was it done? what kind of vehicles? — Wo had horses mull waggons on tho poi'tages, if necessary, and small boats on tho lakesj with barges in tow. 453 r. SUTHERLAND ;177. 'I'liiit i.^, you lvt'|)l II I'orco (or llwit woric Hp(>ci!illy? — Ves ; wIumi i^,i|iiiii'il. Tlit'V vvoi'o (lot alwiiy-* i».'iiiiir<'il. Ku:' iii.-laiicc: we h.-ul >oiiU! .,i,i|)li(>.s that wo wantinl from Tliiiinlt>r May; wd IuuI a intui orniiloycd .,. thill pinposo, and \\o liircd incii to a>Mi^l iiim to I'liiiLC lii^ stiiMi ii;lil •liioiijj'li, iiiiil would jirobiibly iiiaUu lliico or lour Iriji-a mmmii il ru'vo>- fiiiy- 7178, Then you had not any lorci- thorf coiiliiiuoutly ?— -Xo. TIT'.' I)o you say you had a sj-pjirato account tor that !sorvi? — Not always; Capl. Wjiie (oiitnicled to take somo Hometimes. ;184. How did he tuko it? — iJy his boat aud baigo. TlSfi. W' hat wjiH the name of his boat ? — I forgot the name ; it was a little tiig. "18!. Did tho (Jovernment own at any time any boat there ? — N» tiiiat, except on tho line ; thoio was a small tug-boat there. 71S7. Where was that ? — On IJainy IJiver niid Lake of tho Woods. 7188. Tiien, be-iidoH tho work done by that (lovernment boiit, you mcasionall}' hired ('apt. Wylie to work with his boat? — Yos ; us the lire boat was not sufficient. TlSl). 1 'id you keep a separate account for that boat ? — Ti'ansporta- lioii Account : North-West Anglo Division. T190. Would that account include tho principal operations of this |,oiii '.'--Yes. (I'.il. Did you keep a separate account with each person emplovod? i~Yes. 7102. How would you get information of tho amount of goods (lis)Misc(l ot at the (Jovernment Btore? — By a ytatenuMit handed 111 to I me ti'oin tho store. [ll'3. Who would have charge of making that statement? — There [were several. Of course Mr. Logan was the heaJ ; ho had .Mr. Wilson ;> his assistant, who generally furnished me with the statement certi- |tiedly Mr. Logan, and 1 entorcd it accordingly in my books. 7IW. Then they had a subordinate set of book.-t for tho pnr])0sc in hat store? — Thoy might not be called a set of books, a,s they wore I memorandum to be transferred to tho head book.s. TI95. They had somo books in which ontrie.s wei made ? --Yos. 719o'. And did those books purport to account for all goods going I'ulof the (lovornnient store as far as you know ? — Yes. Fori Frnmri-n liOrli lliMili kt't |>iUK« TiniKlMti I. Nfi (■(•rin.iiii'iit I'dici'. Triiii-.|iortat imi frmii Wlmil|ic'i; III Noitli-WiHl y\iiL;li' II I'm I lift (i Kir liy riiiilriicl. Hfsides Oovorii- iiii-nt liimi lilri-il Lain. VV>II(>. <>ov<-riii>iriit Ntori- . Ainomit of liiisi- noKs (liiiit> lit tiiiv- iTtimciil Ntdi-o— asciTtuiiuiil liy a sliili'iiiciit Irfiiii stort'. J. SUTHERLAND 454 Fort Fraiii-eM Ijork— l*ayuiciiti. AecountH remlor- «'il bfl'or*! puy- inentts wen- made tu luboiirerH, <»ov«rpiuriit R,V8tem of book- Bookr) in poAscH- ciluii. TniiiMi'r dC some m<'lU. Wilson. llovk Iheso gu(x)s wen- vahifd. C!(»od8 which arrived alter transfer delivered and flinrKod to WHson. 7107. Wan thoie any j)artiouIai poritxl of timo at whicli tii,,^,. iicc(>uii(M shoiilil bo ronderod to you ? — Always bolbre the iiayiiK-ni, wore iiiutJo. 7198. You mean payments to bo made to laSourors? — Yes. 7199. How often was that? — A.s a general thing when my liiiiiin.,. came in. There war. uu particular lime, us the men did ri(»i reiiuii,. their money thoro ; thoy could not do anything with it, and tluy \y^|^, better without it often. 7200. As a rule were the jiayineiito made to persons? employ('(J ou^v when your brother came to the p!:i"e? — Occasionally; Mr. Logan kiMi a small ;vmount of cj.sh on 8U>j)en.se, and if :i man wanted a dollui m two ho woulii ))ay it. 7201. But there was no )»eriodicaI Holtlemcnt ? — No. 7302. In keeping this account with the (jovernment stoi-c, 1 uiiilvr btarid you had a separaLe account open in your books for it? — Vec 7203. Did ^ou charge your Stock Account with the good.s that liuni' to the store ? — Yes. 7204. AVt what rale? — The invoice rate, with freight and chuigi. added. 7205. Did you charge the .Storen Account with the cost of tians|wiui- tion of the goods which wnnt U) the store ?—Yo8. 7206. And you credited your Transi)ortation Acoountaccordingly ' - Yes. 7207. Have you ihf books now showing that account from the Ix'ciii- ning ? — Yes. 7208. Do you lemembc;- " transaction l)y which a certain jiuriimi of stores were at one time sold, or exchanged, to Mr. Wilson ? — W'v 7209. lieforo that time Mr. Wilson had been in the employ ot (i. a. ernmoiit ?~Yes. 7210. In what capacity ''' — As assistant store-koepe! . 721 1 . After that time he kept a store on his own account? — Ves, 7212. Do you remcmbor how the value of those goods, whicli vn-n traiislerred to him, was arrived at ? — 1 think that they were put in iii cost, oi- I think Mr. Thompson and Mr. Logan valued tliem, if 1 mol leot right ; the statement was handeil to me at all events, and onteici accordingly. 7213. ^' I ju charged Mr. Wilson with the amount of that statement, and credited your Stores Account ? — Yes. 7214. There were somo .'raii«'«i> ltt. men's Hiipplios — wore sold to Mr. \Vil«on ; Jind those goods, when they itiriveil, were handetl over to Mr. Wilsftn and charged to liis account. ilt'oourwe there wero no more bouglit after tliat but supplies. "21H. U'hen you speak of supplies do you mean provisions ? — N'es. 721!^. So that alter that period you did not deal on behalf of the Ariiiirini iiroC n'crnmunt witli fui-nislung goods — sucii as clothing, and boots iin(l "iioronil'iuiii'in':.' .l,„e>. y—Xo ; not at all. and ti... iik... "•,'20. Then llmf account which you say was kc^^i of (hos»' stores Aoc-oimt.ot siut-.-s ,i).rht to show whether that trunsaciion had been a pitiitable one or an "f,oi{".'''"""^ '" iiiprofilable one ? — Yes. 7221. Would you open your books and lot me see how that account »taiide'/ (Witness opens the book.) Do you renieinbor whether your liiolhor used to charge to Stores Department Account the salaries of j„reons who were employed ? — Yes. 7222. Such as tliose ot Mr. Logan and Mr. Wilson ? — Yes ; everything in fonuection with it. 7223. That account has not been finally balanced ? — No, it remaiiii* . v^n; the store was handed over. 7224. J understood you to say that you liad charged this account ^vith the amount of goods got by Mr. Wilson? — Certainly. 7225. When the store was closed was any stock taken of the goods nil hand? — That is, when the works were closed here ? 7226. When the stuff was transferred? — We kept the store for our nh^piich. own biipplies. 7227. Is it open now ? — No. ■|22S. When was it closed ? — It w j,8 closed wlion the works were shut Jdwii. 722!i. Then you left befoi'c the store was closed ? — Yes. i-»it \w(»vr st-nc WHS clost'd. I iin* 7230. So that you arc not abl. to say how the account was finally »ot say how ailju.>*ted? — No; J am able to say just in the same position 1 would be iinany ad.hrvii'ci. -npiWhiiig tliat were the case. I took it fi-om the statements at all limen ; 1 was not supposed to go into the store and take stock mysoll. I WPS furnished with a statement of stock on hand. 7231. J)o youi- books — those books whiclt are under your control — >li(,w the final settlement of that account ? Js this the one you mean (po nting to an account book) ? — Yes. 7232. In doing tluit woidd you credit to Stores Account that final ■latement of stores on hand ?— Yes. 72J3. Is it done ?— No. "234. Then those books do not show the transaction? — J can show fun Hbow smti yim statement of stock on hand, but it is i..«t entered up there; that is imnJf.h'irntis''* Mipposed to show the amount of stuff on hand. ""• entor.d up. 7235. Why is it suppoeed to show it when it is not hero ? — Every entry is made of all the stuff that has gone out of it, and every entry is made of the stuff that wont into it, and the difference between the two is the balance on hand. * J SUTHERLAND 4.')U I I Hr^ u^^ftjf fori Praiirox l.'H Ik — U«M>Kok«*a-|iilll{. Nll|l|>li<>i«. If li()<)l«S \l Ul'l* forrniilly hiiljiiic- od wniilil show sttiti' orairairs al llie clmliii; ol' .jliop. Bntliorf)! wli- lH'SS liiu»i|p(t over all Htock In liHiici to Fowler lit I 111! tliiii' of the Hbiin- (loniiii'iit of the After transfer to WllRon only sup- plies Kept for ixxirdiiig house ■Wlilc!.' was charfT- •d at cost price. All hooks require an entry of credit goods, side of stores aoeount of th<' viilueof Hfoods liamled over, to show the real Btnle. if tilings. lI'Au. I5iit >ii|)))osinic tliev hiul beoii s-foleii, woiikl the Ixioks sIk,.. whethoi- tlioy woi'e on liniid oi- iiol ? — Oei'lainly. 7237. How woiiM the books show? — We had Iho amount of end ac'coiiiifol ■^tllll■ ihiit wont in thoi'c. All it would •(.•qiiii-o is ;i tneiv nialti'i- (il woj'lc, to pifk iloiit in Uie IcdgiT, and that and Iho sliitlili;,; liad boon sold would show it. 72.'5S. Jiiit tho stiiir (in liand is nof. cntci'od to show the balance helwuen Iho two accounts; this account as it ntands now does not t,'ive any i,l^.;, of the real state oC ull'aii's at the closin<^ td the sliop ? — Tlio wdm^ "by balanco on hand" aro not wi-itten in. 72.)I). Jf that wei'o wi-ittcn in coi'i'oct'y it would show ;■' — Ve-; ; d^ is all tliat is ivquii-cd to be done. 72J0. You think that can be ilono by the statoiucnt that you l-ii •, ■'.- (,'ortJlinly. 7241. Will 30U pro.lucc that statement'.'' — I have not ^^ot it wiili mo but I think I can find it. 7242. Do you reinenibci', in round numhors, the amountoCthat siaio ment? — F could not say. 724.'>. Was that (ho time that you sa\- the store w:is handed owv ;. M r. Fo w 1 1* ? — Yes. 7244. Who was Mr. ['"owler? — He is a man who owns a mill tlioiv. 7245. iJid ho ijuy this stuff thci-e ? — No; I believe my brother hiii instructions tVom tho (lovcrnmont to hand over any stuff thai wa> m hand at tho time of closing the works to Mr. Fowlei'. 7240. Was a statement of the estimated value of tho goods tu that time taken by Mr. Fowler hancied to yon foi* the purj)oso of ontoriii;; it iu the books? — Y'os ; and signed by Mr. Fowler as having rocoiviM it. 7247. Did Iio receive it on behalf of the (Jovernment oi' on bi-< oun account? — I believe on behalf oi' tho Government, to keep it iii>t(iiv for them. 7248, Then ;h:;L statement, if the estimate was a fair one, won!! show, up to that time, whether this kee])ing ot the store had liccii pm fitablo or unprofitable? — Yes; of course as far as prolit is conceriio'l wo had no profit en anything exce])t goods that were sold to tho men and that was closed when the store was handed ovej- to Mr. Wilson, 7240. 1 thought you still kept supplies after that ? — No; we keii supplies to supply our boarding-house, and wo chai'ged it at tho s-ani' i-ate as it cost, just the invoice price. Transportation and expensosii! connection with tho stoi-e were put on tho good.-), and thoy weic dealt out as near as wo could get at tho cost.' Of course when tho stoi-es were all dealt out the two accounts should balance, because there avus* n" profit on anything except stuff that was sold to men. 7250. It would show how- unprofitable it had boon : i t would show tlic actual state of affairs? — Yes; it would show tho actual state of atl'aii-. 7251. So that all Ihis book requires now is an entry on ci-edit side 1' stores account of fho value of those goods usostimatod when thoy were transferred to Mr. Fowler? — Y'es; tiio difl'oronce would be the depre- ciation. 451 J. SUTHERLAND- Fort ►'iniir<>« l.4>«'k-- :>r)'. Wiis lliat your hist roiiiioctiot) with tlio hooks ?—^■os. iio«k-k.M-|,j,.s<. j'jaij. i'i'i yii (•hiir^c Mr. Fow'or witl> that trnnslor ? — No ; I diu i,.ii maUt; any entry of it al aU. 1 ditl not char-^'c him with it hecauso Iffiis for :j,:;.7li;.:;ii. 7260. When was that ?— December ;}lst, 187T. 72t;l. What is the amount of that charge?— 83,710.30. 72G2. Besides the good.s and sup])Iiort tran.'ilerred to him, was tliere an -charge for accounts assumed ? — Yes. •203. Wiiat is the ar lount of that charge ?— SLSO.-iO. '^'''',"'"1.^ '""""" 72C1. Then what would be the toUd of y(;ur debit uj)on that trnnsfei- ToImi (ici.it (if tho accounts and goods? — S."),.')'.) 1.17 ; I do not know that that was ♦''''"'•'•• all in conneo'ion with that one transaction. You see we had a trade aicount, and that made sotne ot it, of course. I have not tho details Ix't'oi'C nie, ui"' I cannot tell without referring (o them. 72G5. Whether it was part of th;3 transfer at all events it was a charge which ought to bo made against him?— Yes. 726'). Are you aware of the method by which he settled th:it claim? Claim .sciiici b.v -lie settled it by supplies in return, J thiidt ; if i recollect rightly. ""'I'l'He.^. 72117. Tho value of what ho got was not to be ptiid for in money? — I do not know what the agreement was. 7268. Do you know whether it was paid for in nioiey? — I do not think it was. 7269. IIow do you think it was paid for, if settled? — f tliink it was puid u>v i.y paidfoi by supplies that we got after in return from hini. I know a '*"Pi>iii'-i statement was sent to the Department in tletail. 7270. After this transfer to him you continued to deal in provisions? —Yes; we kept our own sujjplies for our woi-ks. 7271. Do you think that you obtained provisions from him in ixehaiige ? — Occasionally; when we were out of them we did. 7272. I mean In satisfaction of this largo transaction : was it not aiiMiigod that he should pay for the lurnishiiig goods which ho got, by giving you provisions in exchange? — I do not think it was arranged, ••;i 'f!i J. SUTHERLAND 458 Fori Fr«iM-«M I.nolt— B4M>ll>kfl'|>illg. TmiiNlvr of UumIh la Ullxou. Account with •Oniiirlr. Dank. Kfjn ijf $l,;t07— SuKpuiiNi; Accuunt How Suther- land's ctlHburse- moDts weri.' arr.'intfPtl- SospeiiRe Ac'f!Ount — how ticiilt with. (Jovorni'iont pay- itienlH riiiide on Joint choline. but if it was r dn not know what the arrangement was. lie was i,, |>ay for it; but before very long he had an account against n^ f,,, supplies which I think covei-ed it, if I recollect i-ightly, bciaiiso u^ Wire very often out of supplies, and we could not get them in under ;i week or a month's notice sometimes. '7273. Do you remember who valueil the goods which wcro jroi i,; any large quantity from him, after he got furnishing gooils from vuu? --They were charged to him, 1 think, at cost price. 7271. 1 am speaking of the goods which you got from him. Wi,,, valued them ? Vour brother's recollection was that thoio was un understanding made between him or some one else, on the part of ii,,. (Jovornment and Mr. Wilson, to the etlect that Mr. Wilson should take all the furnishing goods that 3'oa had on hand, and that he should pay you by the exchange or delivery of other goods, siu-h as prinisi'HK, which you required to deal in? — 1 think that was the understandini'. 727'). J)o you know who valued the goods which you actually gm from him ott that bargain? — 1 think Mr. Thompson and Mr. Logan, ii anybody. Of course I do not know. 727fi. Isee there is a credit in June, 1878, of one entry of an invoice, will you be able to produce that invoice? — Yes. 7277. FM(!ase turn to your account with the Bark ol" Ontario. \Va^ it your habit to keep an account with the Bank of Ontario, showititr each amount that was sent by the Government to that institution flu the expenditure on the Locks? — Yes. 7278. And then showing each payment on cheque given against thai account? — Yes. 7279. Please turn to your cash book of May, 1877. 1 notice .icrndii to the bank of $500 in one item, and $1,307 in another; can you explain why such a largo sum as $1,307 would be drawn at one time ?— It would be drawn on Suspense Account. For instance, my brother would be going away on a trip, and ho would want to pay small bills ; a cheque would be drawn by the paymaster and countersigned by hiniself and marked on " Suspense Account." Then when he returned ho brouglii in vouchers in triplicate for everything that was paid, and a statcnu'iit was made up from it. That amount was charged to Suspense Account, and the vouchers were credited when thoy were brought in. 7280. Will you show me the Susrvenso Account which contains thai entry of $1,307, and how it was disposed of ? Did you say that upon such occasions as you mention, when $1,300 would bj taken from iho bank, it would be taken in bank bills and paid out by somebody hand- ling it? — Yes. 7281. In this instance it would be taken by your brother? — It would be deposited to his own credit in the bank, to issue cheques against it, as if it wore his own — it amounts to the same thing. 7282. What object would be gained by that ? — He was only in then' once in a while and he could not be with Mr. Logan to get a che'iU'' countersigned whenever he wanted. Ho was 500 miles and some- times lOuO miles away from Mr. Logan, and he could not isaue .i cheque without Mr. Logan and he were together. 7283. Had a system been established that payments of the (4iTTcrn ment money should only be made by joint cheque of Mr. Logai; ani •15!» J. SUTHERLAND Fort Vi-auvfH v,mrbrollK>r? Js ll.ut, uhalyou mean?— Yes; 1 iKilicve (houj^li that the "««.fc-i*t-n.i..«. iiistrtH'tioiis wei'c that whonover any money was to be ossible ; they could not bo avoided. tiic check of the 7286. Do 3'ou know whether, when \ou mivea credit in this instance „ .^. , [,j your brother tor his lusbursemcnts against this Suspense Account, he vouchors lur his hud to submit vouchors, and submit them to a similar supervision of '"'''^"'■**^"""'"''" Ml'. Logan, or any one el.se '•' — He handed the vouchors in to Mr. Logan. 7287. So his Suspense Account was not credited with those items until Mr. Logan supervised them? — lie was not credite*• item like that would bo revised by Mr. Logan ? — Yes. "200. What was Mr. Logan's position at tho Locks ? — lie was pay- fxjgnnpaymaKier. master and store-keeper. 7201. Besides his duty of looking over tho goods in the store, had ho aNo to revi.se statements of expenditure? — Yes ; but the assistant store- keeper relieved him of a good deal ol work in tho store, m) that he could give more attention to the cash. 7292. Then your brother had not tho authority to pay moneys [.Ko^ftiKT/ «iilirelv on his own judgment?- No. to pay money o.i •' JO his own Hccount. 7l!93. Is it your idea that this chargoot $850, according to the system ^ssd for wutrcs which you have described, will appear to liave been revi-cd by Mr. '■'^^''*"' ''•^' *-**^'""* i.o;^'an ? — Yes ; I can give you the details of it. 7204. I am speaking of Mi-. Logan's signature'?- Anything about wages will bo on tho pay rolls, and will be found coi'titied to by Mr. Ldgan. Department has them and wo have triplicates. 7205 Were tliere other Suspense Accounts besides this? — Yes; Mr. Logan had a Susp«;fi.>o Account. T2;*t). l)j 30U mean by that, that money in a lump sum would bo ii.didod to him Uii4 diarged to his Suspense Account ? — Yes. (207. And it would be his duty alterwards, to account for the disburse- system of ami 11 iiitnt .<■ that money?— Yes; and my brother checkctl him, because all FniuoisTocks. vmiihei's iiad to be certided to and approved by l)Oth ot them. "21t8. And that was tho system of audit which was adopted with leteience to the !.'X.*kB? — Yes. "209. It (lid not pass through the hands of any auditor in Winnijieg? —Not that 1 know of. ■ff V (^omq^gpnmn J. SUTHERLAND 460 Fort FraiicnH Lock— liook-kri'iiiDK- Til*' Bolhr ti-nisiHur(ioii« Tlionipsnii lorr- iiiiin ill cliar^'o of worUs. Thiiiiipsoii ixni ii !»)ll<'r I he projiei'- ly or(!i)V«)"uiiirnt which w.s I'hai'geil tu him. 7300. Who WHS tho forein.'iii in charge ol the work.s? — Mr, Tlir son. ifitiii,. All iipriirlit hoiln- ('jiliimt Sii.\' Whi'lh" r Thfiirip- Muii WHS chiirtfcil by (jovfriiiricnt with t iJiusporl of liiiilci'. )*.T>»l«'in <»f' |»nv- iiip IhIiuiii'' I'M. 7301. [)i(l lu' roiriiiin thoi-e as long aa yoii did ? — ITo i-fimaiiicil i|)f.,. h)ngcf than I did ; ho roniainod thoro until the close of the works, 7302. J)o yon know whcthoi- ho got any of the propc ty iK-ioDirj,,,, to the (rovernnient, by |uiicha«o or otherwise? — I boliove he <'<)['■ boiler, which was charged to him in the books. 7303. Was that in your time? — Yes. 73(14. Pleu'^o turn to his account? — Tt did not belong [o us, it belo!iged to I he lied Hivor rcMile. 730.'). Was that a boiler that had been in use in ono of the liuat< that you speak of?— It was a boat. I think the hull of it wus bmni oii the route, and it was taken to Fort Fiances und used thert-. At the close of the works Mr. ThoTup.son bought it; and I believe iii\- brothir liad instructions to sell all the stiitlhe could. 7.'it)(i. hill you take any part in the arrangement ?—. No; 1 did not 7307. I*o you know who settled on the price? — 1 tliinlc it u;i, between him and my brother. The books will show the transaction. There was no arrangement between him and me. 7308. Do you know what kind of a boiler it wius ? — An upriirln boiler. « 730!». Have you anj' idea of the value of it yourself? — I do noi consider mymdi cMpable ot valuing it, 7310. Do you know \h*^ >iy,e or number of tubes, or anylhini,f of thai description? -1 (io not ; I sim})ly i-ecollect seeing the boiler. 1 (iid imt ]jay any jjarticular attention (o it. It is not a very large one, at a!: events. 7311. Do you remeuiber whether Mr Thompson was charged with the freight of any ])roperTy which he biid removed? — I do not recollcrt There are otlier means of ti-ansporting, besides Government. 7312. Yo ; l.iut 1 want to know as a fact whether he had been ciiar^.a'd by the (iovt-rnment with any transport? — I do not know. 731iJ. You do not kiiow whether he ought to have been charged witi any ? — 1 do not. 731 1. It was nil part of your duty to manage the affairs there ; it was only to keep record of them in yotir books? — It was only to keop the Look-'. '.315. Did Mr. Thompson keep a boarding house? — No, 'i3l(). Ill jiaying the labourers, do j'ou remember whellier it wnstlic system ihajt they should gis'e orders upon shop-keepci'S foi' any i^iKxis that •Ivt'y got before you paid the shop-keopei-s, or did you p;iy !!icsho|i- keepers without sueli ordeis, and charge the men with the aiuount?— In the fimt plnee Mr. Logan paid all the men ; I know it was tlio hi.hit when a man wanted any !i,(tods at any particular store, he would como in and ii*k the pavmaster lor an order on that store. Mr. Logan woiil'i not give ar ordei- until he went to the store and found out how much lie wiMiterl. and whatever he wanted Mr. Logan gave hini an onjci' on the store for it, and took his receipt for the order and charged it to hi;i ftecount. ■KJl J. SUTHERLAND I'oi't l''r»n(-i<«t ;:ll7. Ilav»' you iiny rciisori to lu'licvc that. Mf. Wilson was iiitiTostcil uus ni> nuMiTi id ,;i,ilv \vill> any oiH) ol.so in tho sioro at'li-r no lu'caino tin* o\v ncr <»t' '','.'1',''^'' """ , 'i'"'; •: W 11x111 \vii> III- ih'it store r — 1 nsivc not. irrcsicii iuiniiN Willi Hiiy iiiii' ill ;;;1S. Vitu arc probably aw.iru ihallhuro bavo lavn riimoiir.s ilial lio " "" „.,,, v.-Yos, 1 juu siwaroof it. ;;;l!l. llavo you tlio tiniii-bo )lv that, was Uept ? — 1 do not know lliat I j,.ivc; I ox[>o(!t that I bavo. ";!2(l. Was it pari of your diit}'' Lo keep tbotinu'? — Tbo tore p:ut I , ,1, lull iii'icv Ji wliilo I got so busy I coukl not, and got a man to assist w. 7;i21. Have you the pay-lists? — We bave tbti trijibeato copies soino- wlicie; tbey have been stored away lor a yeav ami a-balf. T;!21 Have you tbo custoiy of tno ebeques tbat were given on tbe li;iiilv ol Ontario?— No. T;i23. Do you know who would have those?— Mr. i^ogan, tbe pay- ulask-Vhas'"'" Master. Tj24. I>id I understand you to say tbat all tbo cbcfiuos given on ilii> (iovt'inment account on tbo Bank ol Ontario wcmo signed by two |iTsous: your brother and Mr. Logun ? — Vos ; lirst signed by Mr. l,o:,'an anil eoiintorsigned by my bi'olbcr. 7325. Is there anything else conneelod with Ibis matter wbieh yoii tnmld like to explain, either on account of the evidence _\ ou have given, or anything that I have omitted to ask, so as to give a lair knowledge .lithe way it was conducted ? — I do not know that there is anything, I'lilcss 1 heard the evidence i-ead. 73'2(!. Voii can consider the m.'itter, and if at any luture time you vi^h In '^'wa your evidence you can do so. ctisloily oj (•Ili()lli".>i, T<-l«'Ki'»|»li i'l liiti'i ill;,;. CcilllriK I .^«». 'Z. WlNNiPK(i, Kriday, 2llb September, 18S0. liiciiARn Kui.LER, sworn and e.camined : FULLER By the Chairman : — T:)27. Wbeiedoyou live? — In Hamilton. Vol^. Have you si)ent much of your time in the .Vorlh-Wosi of laii yoiiis? — A very considerable in the .Niinimor lim«. 1329. Have you been interested in any transactions on accouMi ot' [ ;iio Canadian Pacific Railway or telegrapli lines connected with it .■' — I Yes; in building tbe telegraph lino from Livingstone to the longitude I'Eilmonton. I have built in Edmonton, but thai w^ip. al my own I i.xpenso to reach the people there. 7)80. Were you the contractor oi-iginally for thi.s work ? — Yes. (331. Was the work let by public competition? — Ves. puMu- '.'wn?^ 7.i32. I>id you lender for thrt work which you contracted for ?— '" I U's; amongst others. rT>ri rv 1 1 f> 1 -1 111* 'WiTm>SlR's (flltlel i.M.1. Uid voui' tender make ar oflei- fo'- that ]>arlicuhir work? — Mv «•:•« from Fort wider was from Fort Carry «o Edmonton. ' \^'P' "* =•'"'"" FULLER 4C2 TrIeKraph— Tfiulttriiiff* Contract No. tl. TtiKlcn^d for threi- soctloiis. Dill not tcnilcr ^(•|mi;il(!l,v for tlii.' j)urtiou lie Kot. How he civmo til uel ii portion oi till' UiHi for wiiich he liail not lendort'il. Miid Kpcclfleil tf> "o sOiitli by Ell ice. (^ot pontrnct. No. 2 oy nPKOllations .siil)R(M|iient to lilH tt'iidi'r. Witliilrew origin- al tender, und contract from Pelly to Kdinon- ton o IT'erod to h 1 111 . Asked f 20 per acre for chopping and clearing. 73;U. Did yoii mtiko any ollor lor the portion of thy woi-k wlijcli y,,,, contrjicttMl for ? — It coveretl that. Tho way I tc5ii(iore»i was fo|. [\^^, Ihrco sections. I did not toiidor for No.l, from FortGarry to \-\>n l>^.\\y 1 tendered iindtM- tlie othei-, No. 3, from Fort Garry to tho ioii^'itude oi J'ldnionton, and \ likewise tendered from Fort Garry to liake Siiin'rior TM.'^f). In Iho woi'U tor wliich you took th»' contract, tho iimtioii m the line between FortCJarry and Fort Pelly was not invlndoil.^ — Ii w;,^ included in my tender. 733(}. Hilt for the portion of the line for which yoti conlracioti !~. No; that is not in my contract — from Fort (Jarry to Polly. 7337. It waft not a Hpecial tender from Polly to Fdmonton ?— X,, 7338. Did yon make tiny tender tilone for the portion wliidi vm; Imilt ? — No ; not .separately. 7330. Then your contract was for a ditforent leiit^th of the liiu, fiun^ that for which you tendered ? — Yes. 73-10. Ifow (lid it liapi)cn that you olitainod a contract for a ])iiiiiiii, ot' the line for which you had not tendered ? — I was notitit'il |,v telegraph that the whol^j of my tender wa8 accepted from l-'ori Gtiirv to Fdmonton. When I reached Ottawa, tiiidiii"; that they wore i^'oin^r on the present route of the rtiiUvtiy to i^olly, I declined to takt! that, 7341. Do yon n.ean on the ])resent route of the railwtiy '.■'— Vu> because 1 had tip'.citied to go south to Polly. 7342. Rut ih(> present route of the railway is south?- I inoaii iho then projected line. L had fortunately specified in my tendor to <^t) hy Kllice or Pelly, or that way ; that is going up this trtiil. 7343. Then wjis it by a subsequent negotiation th.'it you were ul iwi'il to contract for only a |)ortion of the lino for which you had lemJoied .' — Yes; that was the result of my withdrawing from that. 7344. Was it by subsequent negotiations ? — Yes. 7345. It wjw not in ticeordanee with the terms of your tender /—Nii. 7346. Then itvvtis by subsequent negotiation ? — Yes. 7347. With whom was it you made these subsequent negotiations':'— J think it was u])on a report from Mr. Fleming to the Minister. 7348. With wboTi did you make them? — T withdrew unless I \v;h paid an extra jirice from here to Pelly, and then the other was offoreil to me. 7349. Who ottered it to you ?— The Engineoi*-in-Chief by speiia! report. It arose from a report from the engineer, I presume. TliiU i> all tliat took place. I withdrew ; and, in the course of tho day, that tVom Polly to Kdmonton was ottered to me. 735U. Do you remember whether the offer was made in writiu;^ or verbally ? — 1 think on their part it would be verbally. I do not think there was any writing to me about any more than the contract. I put ill a letter saying what I would do this for from here to Pelly. 7351. In that letter, stating what you would do this portion between Fort Garry and Pelly, did you claim a price higher than you had originally tendered for? — Yes; [ claimed $20 an acre for the chopping and clearing. 463 FULLER ;;j52. Do you. mcuii $20 uti aero for tho wholo poi'liim of the wood, ,|. oiilv f<»i' that portion which you Hupposod to be in excess of ilmt, «hie'li"\^''>"'^ bo on the southern line? — On the southern line 1 did not calcaliito on any tiinhor land. '353. Then your demand was $20 an acre for the whole of the wood ;.iii(i wliich would he found on tho noiMhorn line? — Vos ; I wnuld li:ive jiad 110 timber to hinder mo on the southern line at all. 7354. Do you know by what amount that increased the olVfr ul your loinler?— I t'ould not tell. 1 do not know the number of acres tlier'c woaM lio between here aiul Polly, '355. i)o you think this proposal for the increaseii price wa> made nwiitinic or verbally ? — I made that in writiti<;. 't'idCt. To whom was that directed?— It was directed to Mr. SaiidliMil Flotniiii,'. t'oiilincl .>o. '<. WduIiI liiivf hati no tliiilxT 111 \\\h wii.v on MiiUliorii liMf. 'I'l'li'Krnitli CooKlriielloii. CoiilriK'l .\o. 'J, 7357. Had \t>u a conversation with him on the subject after this H.iii.n.iiii ki.mu- - • ■ - - ■ ||,M ollrrcil hliii 1 1ll' poiilini limi, rcll\ lu K.lrii..n tiiti. writing?— ^'^" : ' to ihat?— No; I bad no idea of the quantity of timber. 7300. Were you led to understand, before you were informed that viMi would ^et tho contract for tho balanco of sectioji ,'J, that some one i'Ne was willini;' to ti>ke the portion upon which you charged the extra price?— No ; not fi'om tho Department at all. 7361. From any one else ? — No. 73(52. Then your projjosal to tak»' the westerly poi-tion o|' section 3 was made without any knowledge as to how th(! (iovernmeni wen • u) get the section from Polly to Fort (iarry coj'structed ? — No. 73(13. Was there any tirao in the contract by which you weio to liavc this woi'k completed ?—Yoh : time was the essence of tlu^ con- tl'OCt. 73G4. What was tho time?— Tho 1st of July, 187')'. 7365. Was it comj)lotod within that time? — It was completed on the liight oftho 15th or 16th of July. 7306, Was the mamtenanue of the lino included in your contract ? — 736", For how long ? — Five yeai a 7368. Have you undertaken the maintejiance? — Ves. 7369. Have you carried out that portion of the contract? — Yes. 7310. Was tho maintenance by the mile or by the time? — The maintenance is »i lump sura per annum. 7371. Without reference to distances ? — Yes, that is for the whole I of my wor]v. 7372. Did the length of your work excaed tho amount, or rat])er the [distance, estimated at the time of tendering ? — No ; I think it i.s about [three miles shorter. ( III l';ict 1(1 III' iviniplnlcil lis \IIStl*llflloll« 4'«>lilrii«'l A«>< 'J< <''HilllM. >'M> (JIT Here rliilllli'il I \l I'll lor n niail i-iit throii'.'li III)- \VIM)(l*i. I'iilil fj"i; m-oss >llllllllllt :^I0,-JIM). ".■>".!. I>iil yo'if fomliM' makf any difVcronco Itotwooii \v>hk1 Imul ;,||| |»raiiiij land/ — My tuiitlor was Hpui.'iliecl in u specitiHilion [,, I,,. .,|| prairio. 7.i74. Was it, more oxpcnsivo V) yon than all prairio? — Vls, n,,, tinilicr was a vory hoi ions delrimont to niy oporations. T;{75. I >iti you make, any claim on lliat ac^coiint? — Vcs ; I ijainhl \hv a road I cat llicMu to bniM the liru' tliiou^h the woods. 7;{i bail on tinishing the line. 73S3. At the time that tenders wore invited were i»articul;irs alloivlrl by the (iovernment to persons tendering? — Yo<<. 7o84. Was it in those particulars that 3'ou were int'orincd that iIioh' was nothing but prairio on your section ? — Yoh. 73H5. Ilavo you a copy of those particnlarH ? — In tlu^ niomoiaii.liiia lor the information of parties tendering, clause 17, it stales ■ Unvcni Fort I^elly and Edmonton the country is prairie." 738(J. Was there any other matter during the coiisinuiidii ii|imii i»ii«\oiii- ment? — Yes. $i.*Kiiiaiii'iidy? — The parties were not out to survt-y ihe line when my !:;;i!('iiiil was on the n-ad. l\()\. Thon tiio contract was lot before the line was located? — Y08. in'ron-'iitit,'' , . , , ,,,, , . looaloil. ',<()-. JIow |on^ neloi'o it was located f — i no location ])arty only kl'ptju^t in frontofmy mon, and had hard work tolceepahead of them. :|i);{. Was thnt tho |)arty locatinr that maintenance been resistoil ? — It has l«M up once or twice, and it has not been settled yet. "153. Was the construction of that portion finally completed at the, p you name?— Yes. ' • ■ 3(iJL FULLER 4G8 TclearrnpU— CoiiMti-iiftioii> Contrac' or'f* Nut iro ol «'ont;ii('t()i'' coinpliiliU. Contract M«. a. 7454. Ready for operation if (he rest had been ready? — ^■cs. 7455. And you say the rest would have been ready but for tlie !k:;,vi caused by tlie Government ? - Yes. 7J5G. Now what delay as to the rest was caused by tlie (iovomJ ment? — The delay in not having a line to lay the material on, havn to move the material, and the delay caused by the party wlio lunJih^ sub-contract for laying the poles on the western end being turned ImI by the Indians. All these poles had been on the ground, and 1 had remove them from the South Branch west, and all the material, a x'vnii tini3. 7457. In your bargain with the Govei'nment originally was m r« any agreement that lliey would have the line located at any particiiiaj lime? — No; but by my contract 1 was compelled to finish (ho line the Ist of July, 18»6. Time was the essence of the contract and 1 w;, bound to it. 7458. You mean t me as to the finishing ? — Y'es. 7459. But your complaint is that they were not in a position to loj j'^ou begin work as soon as they ought to have allowed you to bei^in '- My complaint is that the line was not ready for my material (o be laid upon it when it arrived there. 7460. Is there any portion of the contract which calls upon tn* Government to be ready at a jjarticular time ? — No. 74GI. How do you make out that it was their duty to bo ready :iti particular time? — To enable me to do my work within the limiiofnii contract. 7462. Then it was by implication, was it, and not by any cxpresiii either in the contract or verbally? — No; I notified the Governm.Mil when I was going on, and they notified mo that they had made ] parations for it. They knew the time I was going to commcMiio. 7463. But would they not have performed the spirit ofthea^'N ment, as you understood it, if they enabled you to begin the lino that you might complete it within the time named in the contract '- Jiimtocoiiiincnce If they had done that. 7464. As a fact you completed it within fifteen days afterwards Yes ; but it was at an extraordinary cost to myself. , 7465. But the Government did not contract that you should LmiMthl line in the cheapest possible mode to yourself? — No. 7466. Whether you could have done it less than the contract prii or not, is not part of the agreement with the Government ?— No. 7467. That claim has as yet remained unsatisfied ? — Yes; itreniainj unsatisfied. Complctlns; pon- tracl nearly iu time notwith- standing worit not prepared for cost. Claim remains tinaatlstied. Telesraph— niHlBtenaiice." . . Claim of $10,740 ^468. Is there any other item for an for cutting trees amounting to $10,740. during mainten- ° ance. extra ? — There is a c!a:i 7469. For what ? — For cutting trees. 7470. During maintenance I suppose you mean ?— Yes; duriii maintenance. , 7471. Why do you make that claim ? — Because I have no right take the trees off. It should have been all prairie. 4t)9 FULLER ;i;.'. Why (lid yoii tiiUo tliotn otV Ihe line? — Tlio lino coulil not h:ivo linii kept lip without taking them otf'. ;ii3. Were these trees which you have lemoveJ, and for which 3^ou iBiiko this claim, entiicly within the wooded coctiors ? — Yes ; priii- fiii'iilly within the tirst lUO miles. ;J71. Are they scattered trees? — There are no scattered trees, it is nlid wood. M75. Do you mean that the whole maintenance of th? line has cost ■„ii this much more in consequence of there being a wooded portion ;r:>;oad of being all pniii'io, as you were informed ? — Yes. ;4;(!. Po you mean that that is the amount that is has cost you ? — It .ijio iinvHint returned to me by my men — the number of trees — and 1 iLa.e charged by the tree ;4T7. Did you pay your men by the tree? — Xo ; I pay them by the iinlh. 'i'!<, Tlien how did you arrive at this sum which you claim ? — The lexii'ii cost of men and killing of horses sometimes in the bush, Ti'O. Have you calculated exactly the extra cost it has been to 3'ou lioiiuiintain the line ?— Not correctly. lean get that from the books latBiittloiord. II8O. Upon what basis do you make SIO',740 ? — So much a tree. ;,81. llow much a tree ? — I do not recollect. I have not theaccou^its until ine ; 1 have only a memorandum of accounts. Many thousands ot lireoj have fallen, but I have not any iilea of the number. Then there Iwre brackets and insulators. '■182. Do you say that you were not directed to remove these trees, Iktyou ibund it necessary to remove them in order to jierform your Ifontract? — Yes. T48;i Could you have fixed a price per tree? — Yes. (484. Can you explain upon what basis you have arrived at the price iviuhave fixed per tree? — Sometimes it has cost me S50 to sonil a man lit lor probably one tree, and sometimes it will not cost much, because I man will go through the woods and cut otf a lot of them. T485. Have you !850 for extra men to go out. "It6. Have you the data upon which you can now calculate that it Iks cost you 810,740, or is that a random estimate ?— I have not the jtxacl data myself, i would have to go to Battleford to get the books. "487. I am not asking you to produce them now ; I am asking you lifhether you have them within your control ? — Yes. i488. So that you are able to thow the correct data which has led to lis amount being claimed by you ?— Yes ; by extia men and horses, I Itliink. U>i9. That claim is still unsettled ?— Yes. "WO. Have you any other claim to make ? — I have a claim of $475. T491, What is that for ? — For sending an operator to Edmonton pom hero during last summer by the instruction of the Govornraeut. T«•Ic^rallU — Maiiilciiniitra Coiidnct No 4. C»iit»a«- tor's t'laiiiiH. Tlio amount clllilllcd— the lUlti'renoc in cosi beUvcen a wooii- f(l and a priiirii' reirioii. Amount arii veil at by counting I'Xt I'a cost 1)1' niou anil till' value ot horses kilUil In bush. Has data on which he bases this claim for $Hi,710. Clniin of $17.5 for HeutliiiK oprrH- tor to Ktliiiou- ton at .suggest ioi) of (Jovernment. wmmmm FULLER 470 .■ « •in; MatntciiBiicc* Coittract Ao. 'Z. Contrnt'tor'a ClwiiiiM. Ijliuis oporatctl for benefit ol' con- tractor. FleminK ill^stra(•t• ed operator to ♦)(' sent to E(l- irionton. 'Object ol llii> Does not as a rule operate lin'^ between Battle- lord ami Etlinoii- ton. 7492. Was lliere any ai'rany;einent witli the Ciovernment Ijy wlli^il^ you were to operate the.se lii)e>? — No. 74'J3. Arc they operated? — Yes. 7494. For whose benefit ? — My own; rather for the benotit oi ii,o| public, for 1 lose out of it. 74n5. Has the operation not res^ulted in a profit to you? — Xo. G496. Foi- what reason was this operator sent? — By written instnir lions from Mr. Fleming. He was sent by mail cart to Battlefoiij, ai.': then by my own cart to Edmonton. Tbis claim includes his pay tori live or six months up to the time the Cxovernmcnt was expecting tbJ expedition that came over the mountains, 74'.)7. Was tlii.s for the purpose of furnishing an operator at ilij request of the Ciovernment ?— Yes. 7498. Ill order that this lino might be operated as well as mail. tained ? — No; it was in or.ler that when Mr. McLeod and Mr. (ioidonl came out from the Peace River there should be an operator there tol send the rofult of their expedition to Ottawa. I charged IIumh \viiii| the man's pay and sending him out there for that time. 7499. If the (iovernment had not asked that that operator bo sont!i;ij would the line have been operated? — Not between lialilefDrd aiil Edmonton. 7500. That was for operating the line further than 3'oa had cor] structed it, do you mean ? — No ; I do not operate it, as a rule, butwedj Battleford and Edmonton. 7501. That portion of the line you wei'e not then operatiuiC ?— X,; 1 only operjited it when the repairer happened to bo al the other uiiJ 7502. And the operating on this occasion was done for special purj poses of the Government? — Yes. 7503. And caused this extra expense to you ? — Yes. 7504. About how far had you to send thai messenger? — Fi-om here] 1505. How far?— About 900 miles. 7506. You say that he went with the mail cart? — Yes. 7507. Was there a regular mail cart carrying mail from thi.i poinj to that? — Yes ; he was carrying the mail in the oart at the titno. 7508. And this cart sometimes took passengers? — He sometimej takes a passenger as a favour. Claim not settled. 7509. Has that claim been settled?— No; Mr. Fleming wished io| settle it upon the basis that I should deduct the amount thai wa charged for the message through to Ottawa, and which was very conl widerable; but I do not see that I should do that, because that mesisag^ amounted to considerable money passing over other lines. 7510. Do you remember about what your charge was for p!is>ii over your line ? — No, I do not recollect ; I did not got those particuhu:j They are all on record of course. 7511. Do yju think that the Government should bear the whole cosi of this man's travelling and pay, in order that he might operate thai particular section of the line, and that you should get profit '.''—1 thiKf Had to send ;i niessensei" !""' miles. ^ 471 FULLER eratoi- at tiiJ hoiiilht to got the profit because it had to go all through in\- other jopciiitors. '512. Why through the other operate ti-.s ? — My operator at liatlleford Ilia, to take it, and then at Pelly. :513. Can it not go all the way through to Wiiinij)eg without that? |_Xo ; it haa got to be repeated. 1514. Did the repetition by those operators increase the expense to jyi,n?_ Necessarily. 1515. Were they paid by the message or by the time? — By the llime. 1516. Then how did it increase the cost to you if they repeated it ? — Iwiid paying them anyway. 7517. Their repeating it added nothing to your expense? — Nothing 110 the oxpenwe that I was at at that time, but I think 1 had a rigiit to |iilei;itiniate charge for their services. IJ18, If the Government had not sent this operator to the westerly jenilot the line, so as to send a message from there to Battleford, your lopeiator at Battleford would have had no message to repeat? — No. 'th\9. And the repetition of it by him c^ost you nothing? — No; no jmore thati his daily wages. 1520. But still you think you should charge for this message in addi- tion to the cost of furnishing the operator at Kdmonton, which you put ^ownat $475?— Yes. "521. Have you any other claim ? — I have no other claim. 1522. In what manner has the lino been maintained since you have KoiiJ-tructed it? — It has been maintained well. 7523. Has there been any complaint on the part of the Government br the public ? — There has been complaint on the part of the Govern- netit, but 1 have to bear it all from Ottawa to Edmonton. 7524. Has there been any complaint as to the maintenance of this |iirticular section over which you have control ? — There was only )n|)l;iint when the line was burnt down, for which wtoppago was io of 8960 for the number of days which it was down. 1525. The Government has charged you that amount ? — Ve.s. 7526. Has that been settled ? — I do not call it settled nivself. "527. But they have taken that amount from you ? — Yes; they have akin that amount from me. '528, Is that a deduction in proportion to the time and price ?— Yes ; Ik lino was burnt down the same spring and full, and it was put up 1» rapidly as it wan possible to be put uj). 1529. Do you mean that the line fell? — It was burned by spring and tires when the frost was in the ground, and burnt down about twenty lesofit. i530. Do you mean that those accidents were not provided against I the arrangement with you that you were to maintain the line? — h] there was nytbing in the contract about it at all. Tclrvra |>h— nnliitaiiancea Caiiirncl So. 4, Mi'ssnui' tiiul to 1)1! repeated nt I ha several stations. No other claim. Line maiutaliie(l ; well. Coinplfilnts inada ofinefflcieiicj- of line. Only one corn- plnlnt respeotinff line; $^.^. tliat 1 should sutt'er a poi'aity for sucd> accidents. Of course if ] ,iii not repair llie lino as i-apidly a.s it was possible to do it, i should be, 7532. Do you mean that this was more in the nature of reconstriicti m, than repairing ? — Yes ; it had to bo reconstructed. 7533. Upon what understanding is the line now operated'/—] k,.^.. the operators there and i operate it myself, so that it is not worth v hi ,. making any further fuss about it. 7534. Are j'ou allowed to take ull the rocoii)ts? — >'cs ; which a;.: m, to very little. 7535. Is there any arrangement about u tariff? — No. 753G. llave you established a tarilf to suit your.'-elf ? — Vc^. 7537. What is the tariff? — It is SI for a message of itn w .i ;>. and 7 cts. a word for all words above that. 753S. Ai'e these prices less in ])roportion to distance ?- No; tluv are the same all over the line, however short the di^ttlnce may hv. 7539. Is thore any other matter contiected with this tolegraph cmii-I struction or maintenance which you wish to explain ? — No. 7540. Ila'^e you been interested in any other matter connocie'l wit'n the Pacitic Eailway ?— Not with the Pacific Kailway. 7541. Have you tendeied at any timo for any work coniiccto.! wiiij the Pacific Kailway ?— Yos. 7542. AVhat was it? — I tendered for this fencing. 7543. Whei'o was the fencing? — For the wire fencing of th, liiiiji recently let here. I did not know then where it was to be. 7544. When was this ? — Three months ago. 7545. That would be since the 16th of Jur.e, consequently t!i:pt not within our enquiry. Did yon propose to do any other work ;ii| connection with the Pacific Railway, or any mateiial for the laihvay? — Yes; 1 made a tender in 1875 for the transportation of rails. 7516. Was that work which was offered to public competition?-! was in answer to an advertisement issued by the Public Woikjl Department in 1875. 7547. Do 3'ou know who got the work? — The Red River Tianqnm^ tion Co. 7548. From what points?— From Duluth to Winnipeg or lielow it. 7549. Do you mean below it on the Pembina Branch ?— It wjist'oj carrying rails from Duluth to any point between the boundary liu^ and Winnipeg, and between Winoipeg and Selkirk. 7550. In fact upon any point upon flu Pembina Branch, north oj south ?— Y'es. 7551. Do you remember the rates offered by you in that tender?- Yes. 7552. What rates?— $13.50 from Duluth to any point from thj boundary to Winnipeg per ton, and $15 if it was landed between Wi Tiippg and Selkirk. 473 FULLER JConstnicti.il, 'b'yi- ^Vii!^ lluit the long ton or the short ton ? — The long ton. Thoy did not specify the long ton, but I never thouglit of iiny other ton but 2,240 lbs. of iron. 7551:. Upon that ])oint did you make any change in the wording of vour tender from what was supposed to bo rc([uired by the wording of iiie advertisuiaent ? — No. 7555. Have you tlie particulars of that advertisement now in vour control to bo prr>(luced ? — lam not sure whether 1 have it at 1,01110 or not, but very likely 1 have. I am not cei'tain. 7550". Did you get any comiaunicalion on the subject afterwards ? — No. 7557. J^o that you have not been officially informed of tho result ? — 755.^. Do you know by whom the work was done? — Ey tho Eed Jivoi' Transportation Co. 7550. Was that an incorporated company? — I presume it was. 7.')G<). J)o you know who were the persons principally interested ill it at that lime ? —[ do not know any myself that was interested except Mr. X. W. Kittson and J. Hill. 751)1. Then you know of no reason why you did not get the con- iiiict?— No. 750-'. Were the prices which you asked in xVmei'ican money or Cana- dian money ? -I think it was stated in tho otl'ei to be American money. T5li3. Did your offer of the price betvveen Winnipeg and .Selkirk dcpoiid upon any improvement in the channel of the Jlcd liiver ? — No. 75U-J:, It was an unconditional ofler ? — Yes; it was unconditional. 75(i5. I notice that contract 18 is for transportation of rails from r'uhuh to Winnipeg, or any point on the IJed Itiver between Pembina riiidWinnipeg, at the rate of 815 per ton. United States currency, and in the event of the channel of the Eed Kiver being improved, tho same rate, namely, S15 per ton, from Duluth to the point of crossing of the Canadian Pacific Railway north of the Stone Foi't ; is that more or less in favour of the Government than your offer? — I should say my offer was more tavoinuble. It would a good deal depend on how much money they would have to spend on the Eed River of course. 756i). But I understood you to say that this of yours was uncondi- tiiuial ? — Yes. 7567. If so, would not your offer in any event be the better one for the Government ? — It must have boon. 7588. Do you know of any reason why your oflor was not accepted ? —No. 7561). Do you know whether your offer reached the Government or the Department? — There is not tho slightest doubt about it. 7570. Why do you say that?— Because I have seen the public returns to Parliament in which that was included, and there was only my tendei- and that of the Eed Eiver Transportation Co. 7571. There were only two tenders shown by that return ? — Yes. TrnnHportnt loi» of KiiiU— 'ri'iiilt-riug* Cuiitrnt't So. 18. WorU (lone hv Red Klvcr Tiaiis portation Co. Witiioss thinks his offer more favourable than tlie prices oj iiv:i River Transport- ation 0(1. Otter absolutely bctter tlian that accepted. FULLER 474 Trail »portatloii of RallN— TciiderlnK> CiontractNo. 18. Date of tender. Charges for ■wharlhdc, iin- loiulln;?, Ac, included. Tclrgrapii — Ci»iif«trii('.lioii> CoiitiHCt No. 'i. Expliinatlon re- spei-tinR lino running tlirougli hikes. For purposes of mainionancc, lines b.^tter than If they crossed lakes. Claim agairttt I'oiitrnctnr* Claim byOovern- inent ai{'>lnst, contractor for not crossing lakes from $.'),IK)1) to 4it),IMK.I. 7572. Were there any remarks made upon iho .sulyect in the rctiiin ' — No ; simply the offers. 7573. About what time was your tender dated ? — About the ^oi-J „f April, 1875. Tiit.' return \v:l^ made to the Senate. 7574. Do you remember whether the advertisement invitini; tender-, required you to staio whether all charges for wharfages, uiiloadiiin', \,. were to bo included ? — I think it did. 7575. Vour tender covered the.^e charges? — Yes; it inciiiilod ai! charges except any entries to our Custom-house at I'embinji, and ihts^' were excepted — a"y tees for entry coming in hero. 7576. Is there any other matter connected with the Canadian Pacific rjailway upon which you wish to give evidence ? — No. 7577. fs there any further explanation which you wish to jidij t,, what you htivj already- stated ?—2so : there i's only one explanatidi;, arid that is about my line running through lakes. 1 have disputed tha* point. 1 hiive run around some of them instead of through. Th.' Klrf.ight rtiilroad line runs through a largo number of lakes, and tin; engineer wanted me to build floating platforms and put the perils oii them instead of letting me run around. 7578. What would be the whole length of the crossings of tliow lakes ? — T'ley vary. 757!>. Hut addini; them together, the total length ? — \ have no acci- rate return, but it would be some miles altogether. 75S0, Instead of ci-o.s.ning the lakes you have built the line around ?— Yes; where it was imjws.-^ible to get :\i them and maintain the line. 75'^1. Have 5'ou reiurnod as quickly as possible to the general diiec- tion of the line ? — Invariably. 7582. S'> th It for the purpose of maintenance and operation tiiey ar<' just as etfective as if they crossed the lakes? — They are more so. Ii would have been impoi-sible to maintain them if tliey were done in ihi' waj' Mr. Lucas wanted me to do them. 7583. Hjis it been pr':tposeil to deduct from moneys coming t) yon any amount fur thu?i omitting to cross the lakes? — Yes. 7584. Whiit amount is in dispute on that account ? — Between 85,000 and 8(),000. 7585. Has that been still withheld ? — Yes ; and I hold very unjustly, because the line is a great deal belter as it is than the other way. 758t). Have you had any discus.sion upon that subject with any officer of the Department ? —Ye?, with Mr. Fleming ; and soraootHcef reported ihat my lino was built within the contract Borao two years before. That was when we finished up for the construction. Two years aitei' wards Mr. Lucas wanted to go back to the construction, for some reason or other, and reported me as being oft' the line ; but in this place, on tlio 8outh Bianch, it was Mr. Fleming's instructious that I .should keep oit the line. 7587. Were these instructions verbal ?— They were sent through by telegraph fi'om Mr. McLeod, and 1 understood it from my foreman. 475 FULLER T<'lef{ra|ilt — (''oitstriictlon. till Coiiti-Rct N». 3. c no acc',1- Claim Mfjniiixt Contrnctor> ;5S3 Yuu umlerHtood fVom your foreman thai Mr. McLeoortir>ns DOrtioriH of it. ' ic.„,(i rora-ricul- 750.'i About what pi-oportion ? — Pi-obal)ly half of it: half of it might be very good for settlement ; or say 40 per cent. ; and then there i. another percentage which would not bo very good ; and then there is iiiiotlier ])ercentago of poor soil. 75!i4. Would the best portion of it be as gooJ for agricultural pni- po^o.-? as, for instance, the land in the neighbourhood of Winnipeg? — Winnipeg cannot be exceeded anywhere, provided it was dry. 7505. Is the portion you speak of as good? — No; I should like to live in it better; but I do not think in any portion of it that the soil i> .'isdcep as it is at Winnij)eg. 750i». Why would you like to live in it better? — The country is dry country ,iiy an. i and rolling, and ploasanter to live in. '" ' "^'' 7597. Do you know n\uch of the country in eithordirection, north or r-oulli of the line? — 1 have been north of the line from Ilumbolt, and it is a very good connti'v between there and the Saskatchewan, llum- liolt is up west of the Touchwood Hills. 7508. Do vou mean that portion between Ilumbolt and the Saskat- Conntry totiK- 1 , ^ i' ii • 1 o » /• 1 i- .1.1 Mjiitli vury sooil. clitwan to the noith is very good .'' — A lew miles away irom the tele- !;ra|ih country, you get into a country that is very good — that is, to the iS'iuth Branch of the Saskatchewan. 7500. That is north of the lire?— Yes. 7000. Do you know the country south ? — Yes; I have travelled from Felly to the Touchwood Hills, and that is a nice countr}' about thirty Msiiway i.oca- niiles away from Pelly — a very tine country. lAnc^wvst of Ilril Blvrr. TiiOl. Is there a better tract of country for agricultural purposes Riiiisytiy tjoin-j; which would be served by the railway at any ])ointdown the line now '^'"'' ''"'''''' ^^"^' adopted? — I .should think not. My opinion is 1 think the lino is now- going the right way for settlement. Vfi02. Do you think that the railway over this lino would serve tlie agricultural portion of the country as well as any other? — Yes; from liore to Shell River, as far as I understand, it goes through a good oountiy, and from there to the Touchwood Hills it goes through a good country-. 760.J. Y'oii are assuming the telegraph line to be the proj'^cted line of the railway? — I think my lino, say from west of ^-dly — some seventy or eighty miles — would serve the country as well as any I FULLER t7h- Rnllwny In- Lliic wrxt ol' I'oiiiitry not' Hi (if Liilvc .Vl!iiiit()l);i not iniicli ii.si.' IVt setlU'iiU'iit. 7 lie line on the first, and srcond liKi mill's west or Hcd Klver better lor scltli'- nifiit thiiti road pri'vlously projoctfd. know (if personnll}', as I'nv us lUiytliliiLf I know of my own kimw TtiO-l. Tlicii Itcyuiul that, ciglity niilos: tlu- rc^t i>f tlio way? — Thai , the rest of tho way. 1 moan th ,t Mipposing tlio pi'csoiiL I'oail stiiiii< my lino that disltinco vvosl of Polly, it woiihl !>ot'vo iho country as woii as iiny 1 know of. 7<>0r). !)id it ha|)])on that yon wtnit ovor tho poi'tioiis ol I ho counny nortli of I^ako Maiiitolm hofoio ycni toiuloicJ for tho huikliny; ot t|,, work? — No; I only knew it fiom joputation. 7 you think tho lino now in coui-se of construction — the tii-: and second 100 milcs-is a hotter line for .settlement? — Uiiddulii- ediy ; tho othor line may become useful b\'-and-byo wheti thoy want a shorter line or when ihey want two lines. I'ndoubtodly tho profiii route, if they want to follow the good land, can reach liie mountain.-. throujL;h jU'etty good land all the way. I thiuK the evil was in tr\ iiiL' to keep an air line in a now counti'v. think tlie best plan would h.ivi been to follow the country as it answered tor s-ettloment and >tiaiudit- eningout the linos afiovwards. JOHN RYAN. Teinlu'liig— ContrnctXo.l9. FiiMt. 100 iniIrM wvNt or Iteil Klver. Hiill from Three Rivers a lower tenderer. .loiiN Ryan, sworn and examined : Bij the Chairman : — 7012. AVhere do you live ? — In Brockville. 7t)1.3. Have you had any business tiansactions on account of \\.c Canadian Pacific Railway? — I have just now. 7i!U. What is it ?— f have contract 4S. 7615. What length of line are you contractor for? — lOt) niilcs 7GU). Was that work let by public competition ? — Yes. 7617. Were tenders invited? — Yes. 7618. Wore you one of the tenderers? — Yes. 7619. Did you get it upon the price named in your tender? — Yo.-. 7o20. Were you the lowest tenderer ?— No, I think not; 1 tliink there was one lower, 7621. Who was that ?— I believe it was Mr. Hall, from Three Eiveis. 7622. Were tenders asked for upon more than one occasion for this contract, that you krow of ?— No ; I think not. I only heard of one. 47T JOHN RYAN Tci'MlvrliHf — Coiili'tii'l i\'f h,''i!)Ie'r.mtimt iln-iiilVeroiit ijorsoiis who tendered— I moan tiio raiik u liicb was jiwaided ^^,"'*. '•'' i^'"; "">'< . .' , ., XT 1 .. ol till' various them 1)11 thou- tenders r — ^o; 1 was not. i.h.i.tois. 7t)26. I mean who was first, second, or third ? — Nc ; 1 do nol. I never inked i I i'*iVor ti'iod to find out. [ heard of some remarks (hat .•oine persons were hi<^her than I was, Voii always hear contnictoro . 'king — " iMy figures are so much," and so on. 71I27. Was it froni eontractors that you heard that? — Ves ; in the liotoi. ((i28. Did you hoar fVom any person connected with tho De^iari- iiient?— No; not o^ •. 702!). How were you noti tied that your tender would be acce|ite,d ? — ^!'.V'"'an'(-'(''urhi3 in iho usual Way. I got notice from tho Department by one of their icn.it'r in iiw mesi^engers to go up and soo them. "'""^' ^'"^' 7(530. Were you in Ottawa? — Ves. . 7631. Had you been in Ottawa from tho time tho tenders wore put in?— Yes; until they wore declared. 7632. You remained there from tho time the tondei-s wore received iiiiiil the time the conti-act was awarded lo you? — Yes; it was only iw'o or throe days, I believe. 763;}. Was there anytime named in your contract for tho completion nniuvii)- con- „t the work ?— Yes. Hir.utio... 7634. \Vhat time 7—1 forget now ; it was mentioned in tho contract Time forcompio- thrmgh. I think tho time is' expired now. work noi'd.m?"'^ 7035. Has all the work been completed ? — No. 7t)3(). Why not ? — I really do not know why. The work has not The work not aii been all located until about tivo or six weeks ago — loss than that. woekslinoe.' "*'* 7637. You mean that you were prevented from beginning the work ill some portions of the line in consequence of it not being located until recently? — That is one of the reasons. 7638. What other reason i* there ? — I do not know of any other, Contract let except that the material could not be got here i .r it until the winter half was 'to'i'mvo^ time. We could not get the ties across until the winter. The contract ''|^l",'*"'*Yh' '" ii was let last August, and fifty miles wore to be finished in eight months half in four. after the contract was let, and the whole on i»r before tho 19th day of August of this year. 7639. That is, you had eight months to finish half of it, and four months to finish the balance ? — Y'^es ; that is the way it is worded, I think. 7640. Has the delay in locating the line hindered you from com- oniy fifteen miles mencing to work after you were ready to proceed with it ? — Yes ; I jJi^y ®i,s8oI' ^"^ could have started some works last fall at the Portage, and other places, if the line had been located. I might have done so, and the probability is that I would have done so. It was only last May that they started the location from fifteen miles out here. JOHN RYAN 4V3 Ralltvay Con- Htriivtioii — Contract So* 48. First IOC miles wtiit or K«,fKHl yards instead of iiiMXXl yards of balhist- ing. do No more ballasi to be put on. 76 il. Do you moan that no more thun tifteen miles had been located up to last May ? — Yes; I do. There were two lines projected fiom the mair. line, on the line of Selkirk — one is called the 4th Base Line and the other is four and a-lialf miles north of that, and it, was onlv decided in May this year to adopt the north line. 1 do not know when it was decided, but thfit was the time it was locate Biiil^vAy fou* Ml ruction — 7656. Have you had any directions to change the quantit}' of ballast *^«"<''Bct mo.48. from the amount that you understood to be iu your agreement originally ? west of *"hvX -We are usinj; ballast now in place of grading ; we are making ballast »**»'«»•. ;ike the plficc of grade in the formation. When the Chief Engineer '"^"'-"•^'/'^''^^f f"i-''- ""^'' J 1 ," • . II If.' ,1 ,., 1 ,, iT , ,, neer to put tiiiek anie up here last Winter, 1 showed nim the prohle and the kind of on the prauif lOiintry that we were going through, and I suggested that ho had better i'.",' wVilV).aii;?!,i!* >iut ties down on the grass, and make a road bed with ballast, onacicount A it Icing so wet ; in fact the water was over the ])rairie, and they had lit made any preparation to take it off, so that the only thing that 1 siw to bo done, was to put the track on the surface of the ground. 7657. The specification required you to take out the material from the ditches and i)ut it into the road-bed, did it not? — ft does not exactly say that it requires you to do i^ ; the specification shows you a .'lado above this level of the ground, but it does not specify that it should be made from the side ditches, although that is the way it is usually ilone. 7658. Do you wish it to be undoi-stood that instead of putting the hai," "ho ^Hiial? (.arth from the side ditches into the road-bed you have to haul the bal- tor the road-ij.ci, histfoi* the roadbed and j)ut it into the ties?— Yes. and put It uiulor t he t les. ■No ; 1 he ballast iss ■J'Jcts. 7659. Not only for use as ballast, but as a support from the level of ihe prairie? — Exactly. 1 think it makes the best i-oad. 7660. What was the price per cubic yard for earth excavation ? — 1 Vv\co por cn\>u- , . , ip . ' ^ '' yiiril for earth think lb CtS. excavfttlou.lCcts. 7661. And are you putting in this ballast at the same rate ?- the ballast is 22 cts. 7662. Then, instead of building the rotid according to the intention lit the time of the contract, and supporting the ties by earth, you are putting in ballast at a higher price from the bottom ? — Yos ; it is a higher price — a little. 7663. You are not putting in the ballast, then, in place of the earth, Making the rond but you expect to be paid for it at ballast rates?-! did not put the s\Vy asTine whs''*' ballast there from choice. It was a matter of necessity for me to put not loeatu.i, ami it there, as they had not the line located for the di'ches, and \ was to'Iuuke dUcUes. obliifcd to put the track down on tne ground, and I bad not time to make those ditches. 7664. Do you mean that you had not time to make the ditches before you put down the ties ? — I had not any reas jnablo time. The track was located only sometimes twenty- miles ahead of my track- lay er.s ; |sometinies, probably, thirty or forty miles. 7665. Has this been done because you considGiod it necessary to bo 1 lione, or because you wore directed so to do it ?■— I was directed. 7666. Who directed you ?— The Chief Engineer. 7667. 7668. Air. Fleming, you moan? — No, Mr. Schreiber. When was that direction given ? — In the month of May. .^ehreiber direct- ed him to make the road in tills way. 766!1. Where \\sxs he at that time ? — He was here 7670. Then the quantity of ballasting which you are doing, and pro- naiinstiig now c to do under this contract, will exceed one-half the q "' '" ■contemplated to be done ? — Ves ; more than double. I pojc to do under this contract, will exceed one-half the quantity origin- ,^iou\,^p ^h ,a wa " ontenipiutcd. JOHN RYAN 480 Railway Con« fitrurfloii— Contract Ko. 48, FirHt 100 iiillfs ivettt of Keh this fall ?— I hope to get it through altogether before 1 stop. Ilhope to keep on track-laying until T. finish. 7692. Does the winter season make any difference in the rate of pro- Igiess?— Of course, it is slower and more expensive. 7C93. For what reason ?--The cold weather. 769-4. How does that affect it ? — The men cannot work the same then, las they have to wear butt'alo coats at work, and the days are shorter. The weather is very severe in winter; in fact sonao days we cannot I work at all. Bij Mr. Keefer : — (695. You propose to continue on until the work is done, without Stopping in the winter? — If possible. I mean until the track is all laiil at all events. Of course, we cannot do any ballasting in winter I time. By the Chairman : — 769(i. Have you built any of the station-buildings? — I have just [started yesterday, or the day before, to baild them. We expect to build four of them this year. 7697. HoAv many will be on your line, as far as you know ? — Seven ; Seven stations. )a I there were, at first, twelve or fourteen, but I think they havo dispensed ""''• I with half of them. 7698. Is there any other matter connected with this contract which I vou wish to explain ? — No. 7699. Have you been interested in any other work of the Pacific contiRo* n<>. ki. lEailwav? — I made a temporary bridge across the river hero — myself 'ivmporar.v and some other parties. kiiI Kiv4-r. 7700. When was that? — This year ; we finished in .July. 7701. That is no part of this contract ? — No. 7702. Was that work let by public competition ? — Yo^. 7703. Invited by advertisement? — Yes; I think so. Yes; I am quite [>ure it was. 7104. When did you make that contract?—! think it was in March |j;,"',at;'lnp,!nuy !)ii(•. Contractors : Ryan, Whlttliead A RnUnn. [or April, or some time in the end of the winter. 7'(05. What was the total amount of the sum involved? — $7,350, was not alone in it. Mr. Whitehead and Mr. Ruttan were in it. 7706. Was yours the lowest tender? — Yes; I think so. 7770. Has the work been finished ? — Yes, 31 . . Work flnl( A«.'<' wnntt . Has taken part lA unditlnjj! Cana- dian PacUlc RhU- way accounts Blnce ISiO. Duty to see tliat cheque and account eorres- ])oncle(I. Henrv M. Driimmond, sworn ard examined : By the Chairman : — 7718. Where do you live? — In Winnipeg. 7719. How long have you lived here? — Since 1872. 7720. Have you been connected with any of the business of the Canadian Pacific Railway ? — No; merely as auditor of things passing through my hands. 7721. Have you had to fulfil that duty in connection with Pacitli Railway matters ? — Yes ; part of it. 7722. When did you commence those duties connected with tin' Pacific Bailway ?— I suppose it must have been — speaking from memory — since the office was open here. I think it commenced about 1873. 7723. Do I understand that you have taken part in autlitiiii,' accounts since about that time ? — Yes. 7724. That is Pacific Railway accounts ? — Yes. 7725. Can you describe to me what duty you had in reference to the accounts ? — Jlerely as to the issuing of cheques. They bi-oughl the cheque with the account along with it, and it was my duty to see thai they corresponded, 7726. Do you mean to see that the amount of the account and the amount of the cheque corresponded ?— Yes ; and of course that it \m a proper voucher. 483 DRUMMOND Mxoti's P«y- iiiuMlt-r niid- 7727. Vou meat) that the account was accompanied by a propei- a Jj-ohui^?' ****** viiuthcr? — That the account was in the proper form, lluit it could ho >ent to Ottawa ; and, as far as I could see, that there was nothing wiong- with tlio account. 7728. Would it be necessary for the person 8i Judgment ? — As far as I know. 7749. At all events you exercised no Judgment? — No. 7750. Then your jurisdiction seemed to be more of ascertaining' whelher it was in the proper form? — Yes; you see our business \va> ntoi-e in the shape of getting these accounts in and charging them up to the different appropriations. 7751. Your principal duty was for the purpose of boolc-kecpinir' — Yes. 7752. Not investigating the merits of transactions? — No. 7753. Do you know whether there was any person, except Mr, Nixon, whose duty it was to investigate the merits of the ditl'eient transactions for which he gave cheques ? — Not that I know of. Hu was certainly the only one accountable to us for the accounts. 7754. Did it t^ometimes happen that you countorsignca his cheqik- without having certiticatos from him at all — that the mere produc!iii!i of thecheque would be sufficient evidence to you that it was propei' (n countersign it ? — When we started there may have boon that. 7T55. Did you ever find it necessary to object to countersigning any of the cheques first signed by .Mi-. Nixon ? — £ could not spy — not that [ remember Just now. We might have made some slight objection, It ;t 1 do not remember; it might have happened. 775G. Are the accounts presented to you, in the way youdescribc, from i Mr. Nixon's office still in your charge ? — No ; I sent them all down ii Ottawa. Each return that I make to Ottawa 1 send the accounts with the cheques. By the way, I might say at that time I gave them bark to Mr. Nixon at the end of each month. 7757. Do 3'ou know how long that continued, that you gave them j back without sending them to Ottawa ? — I do not know how long tliii; was. 1 think it was almost up to within a couple of yours ago really foi-gct now. 7758 Are you able to say now where those cheques could be fotiiM'| — In the Finance Department at Ottawa. 7751). Is there anything within your control which would throw any light upon the transactions of Mr. Nixon in this office as paymaster to| the railway ? — In so far as the transactions go, [ have the books over i" the office yet. 485 DRUMMOND 7-(]0. Tliat would i-how 8im))Iy ll:c entries ufier each uf the.so tiaii- ^actions was consiimmatod ? — Vos. 7761. So as to !?ho\v the j)itrticiilai- account to which each cxpetidituro H as ch urged ? — I co'ild give you the parly to whom eacli che<|Uewas payable. '762. I mean to sec earlier in the tian^^adioii than that? — No. 7763. ]t would only bo tlie amount paid to each party, and tlie •iwnuit to which that payment was diargcd ? — Ves; and what it was I'oi'. BTIxoiiN Pny> ■■■ANt«rr-NII. No voiichiT e.\^:-- -^^-'>i^>- '■ DRUMMOND 4S6 Mlxon** Pay- ■iiwHtt-r-and- Piirvfyoi'wlilp Nlxon'8 dealings 111 noway ri'Vlsed by wltneiti. I'rnctlfo ill pre- scnl to have tho certlflcato of t.-n- Klnoers' to whcun jfoodshavp been furnished atliich- 4id to the voucher iiccorapauylnfj; c'lieque. Thinks present tsysloni was CKtiiltlished spou- tuneously. get Mr. Nixon'H signature in your estimation ? — At that time with ili; Nixon the cheque was sufiicient for us, with the v^ouclior. 7775. Would it ho the vouchor or the person who made tho claim-- for instance, would Alloway's receipt he a sufficient voucher, in ymw estimation, to justiiy Mr. Nixon's cheque going through? Jn other words, did you revise Mr. Nixon's dealings with the suhject in any wiiy / If it satistied him did you accept that as sufficient ? — Yes. 7776. Then it would not ho necessary to show you the cngincei's certificate, if those ceitilicates had heen tirst shown to Mr. Nixon?— Of course now, at this late date, I almost forget ; but certainly now the engineer's certificate is attached to the same vouchor that goes aloni' with tho issue of tho cheque. For instance, the engineer has written across "approved for payment " or " certified as correct," as tho (.iifie may be. 7777. Do you remember how far back the present system has buen established ; has it been since Mr. Nixon has given up connection with the office, or was it established before that ? — I think before that. 7778. Could you say how long before? — No. 7779. Do you remember whether the system which you say is now more certain, was established in consequence of direction from the Finance Deportment, or was it your own management which led to it? — J think it was our own management ; we wanted to get into aspeitect a chock as possible on all parties. 7780. You mean the officers in the office at Winnipeg? — Yes. 7781. Who were the-e officers? — Mr. McMicken was auditor at that time, and I was chief clerk in the office. 7782. How long have you been auditor? — The last two years, or a little more than two years. Winnipeg, Sutarday, 25th September, 1880. IWIoTAVlSH, George L. McTavisii, sworn and examined : "?fe^o«-"": , % the Chairman .— Contract SOff^^ 7''83. Where do you live ? — At Winnipeg for the last two or three years. One of the firm 7784. Ilnvo you been interested in any of the works of tho Canadian loom'lk^swesTo^f Pacific Eailway ?— Yes ; 1 am one of the contractors for the second Kert River. 100 mile^ wert. 77fc5. When did you become interested? — In May last, when the contract was signed. 7786. Was the work let by public competition ? — Yes. 7787. Did you tender for the work ? — Yea ; I and some others tendered. 7788. Were you interested in the tender ? — Y'es. 7789. Your name did not appear?— No. ■s»; ' '187 McTAVISH Kallwnv €'tuf Ht met ion - 7T9U. —Yes. Hiriiciioii- tj But tho tender was mmle on your hohall" as well iis the others ? ^"'•""«« '♦"• «<5<9 VnrlHors : 7791. Who wore the others f — Csip'am J3o\vie, Malcolm McNiiughtou, Cftptaiu Bowie, 1 (' . ..» U.-..!.;.^ Malcolm Mc- iiiiti deofye iiowie. Nauniiton mikI CtcorK*' Bowii'. 7792. Do you know whether their tender was the lowest ? — Wo wore Coudn.t si}ti„..i lold so. 1 was absent at tho time when this was going on, at LaUo |"",Jps*'„"''''''' Hui'or., and hiid nothing to do with it. The whole thing was signed, sealed iind delivered before I got back, and a certain amount of security put up to make the 5 per cent. I knew nothing about it until I came back ii'om Lake Hui-on and found the conti-act signed. I have always iiDuorstood it was the lowest tender. They could not reach mo by mail, III' telegram, or an^'thing else. 7793. Did you take part in any other negotiations with parties temlering on the contract than appear on the paper ? — Nothing what- ever. 7794. Do you know whether any of your partners iietrotiatod with * iiiiy other persons in order to procure this contract? — Xo; J am not aware of it. (79o. VVas there any tmic named in your contract for finishing the iist DocemiMi-, work?— Yes; the 31st December, 1881, I think it is, we are to finish ''^'' the track-laying. 7796. Do you remember the date of the contract? — Tho 3rd of May, 1880. 7797. Have you commenced the work yet ? — We have. 7798. Have you done much ? — We have cleared about three miles rio^iess oi work: :md a-lialf of timber, and when I was up the other day I suppose there was half a-mile graded. They commenced to grade ten miles from the western boundary of the Province, and tlie work is progressing easterly at present — that is as far as the line is Ic.'ated. Two projected lines start from where we have commenced. The location of the line has not been completed beyond where we have commence'c»n- receipt ol' riitis, anti iioii- rompleUoii ol' first UN) miles CilUNll)}; lllCUll- vcuioiiee. First 100 miles was to have bi'cn completed on H'th AlIKUSt. GoverDinent litis not hrokeit any part of contract. ^tOi. Ih there any other matter eonnecfed with this traiif^aclion which yen would like to explain? — I vvouM like to loconi tliiit th, non-rcreijpl of the rails and lies, according to contract, is causinn' u^ ., great deal of inconvenience; and 1 have notified Sir Charles tiinper to-day regarding the fact: that is, that the non-complotioii of tlic tiisi 100 miles is a serious inconvenience to us on account of the state of tho roads west, whit-h makes it almost impossible to get supplies in. TSO'i. Ifthe line had been completed by tho lOth of August, what difference would have been made in the progress of your work ?— We could have put on a hiindrehall have to give up work, as it will bo liai;l tit remove the sod, and we could not work to advantage. 7807. Do you know if there is any time named in your contract at which the (lovernment wei-e to have tho rails at tho oast end of your section? — The 19th of August. They do not bind thcnuelves, Imt Kyan's contract was to have been complete J on the U)th of Aiigii.sl. 7808. But your contract does not contain any clause with reference to that subject ? — It refeis to that at page 13 of the contract, section 12. It says : "The Manitoba section of the railway from Winnipei;, one hundred miles west to the point where this section bcginsi, is under contract for construction to bo completed on the IDth ot Angus;, IfcSO ; but some delay may pi obably arise, and the Ciovern- ment will not be bound to give .access over that portion of the line I'V the date fixed." 7809. Then your expectations have been disappointed ? — Certainly. 7810. But you do not consider that tho Government have broken any portion of the contract? — No, decidedly not; this has been an unusually wet season; the roads have been worse than they have been known lor years, and I have had to pay double what is usual toijet supplies for this autumn up to the contract. 7811. Is there any other matter which you wish to state? — No; nul that I know of. JAS. RYAN. James Evan, sworn and examined Exploratory Surveys- Party K. Chain man to flr.st exploration to tlie height of land between Thunder Bay uud Red River. By ilu Chairman : — 7812. Where do you live? — At Winnipeg. 7813. How long have you lived at Winnipeg?— I atn bore since 1872. 7814. Have you had any business connections with tlio Canadian Pacific Ey.il way ? — I was chain man on tho first party that came to explore from Ottawa to the height of land, and after that was finished I came to Winnipeg, 7815. Wliat was the length of that first survey ?— I could nottelly^ii the number of miles. It was from Red Eock to tho height of land. 48'J JAMES RYAN m horo since ilcnr.v C'liTc, 011- t;ilii'i'r III i-luil;;!.'. Siii)i)llcs. Kt|>loriiloi'y Siirvi-y*— ;31G. Tlie height of hinrl where ?—Bclweon Canada ami Mariiti)lia. *''"*>' •*■ ;S17. There are sovonil phioos where there is a height of land ? — That i> tliu dividing line bctweon the two Provinces. 'SIS. Do you mean the height of land between Thiiiidor Iliiy ar.d Jled I'ivoi'? — YeH ; this nido of Thiinaily. 7832. Was Mr. Carre with the party most of the time ? — He was, until he got sick ; then he went up to Prince Arthur's Landing and remained there. 7833. How long was he away from the party at that time ?— He was iiot away more than a couple of months. " The party Avere nearly tinished when ho got sick, and they followed him. 7834. Was there any suffering from want of proper su])plies, or did the work progress as it ought to have done ? — No ; there was no want of siipplie.?. , , , ,, ^; i . . Carre witli imrty until he got sick, when lie \v(^iil away for a couple of iiiontlis. NosufTorinii from want ol (•ui>pllcs. JAMES RYAN 490 KOI. veynrMtilii -n.i- ■■ i i . • • • .i <''arryiuKnniiH. "o.i.i. Ihivo yoii had any ollior coiiiioctioii Willi tlus railwiiy ?—^„ rciMioriiiu. I hut is nil uj) to ISl.i. I had no moro t'Oiiiicctioii with it uiiiil I hero. T.n,i,.n..i i„r.()M- '^^'^^'' AUi'i- yoii ^'ot horo liml you any?— After r got hero I san a iract fo.'iiiiy noiic'oititho I'Vec Pres.'i calling tor tenders to tairy the mail tVom !l.'r,',','rmsrLak': I't-'fo to CroHs Jiuko and Bat I'ortago. 7837. I>id you answer the advortisomont by making a teiidor?-! tciidcrod for it and drew up the tender, and went to fi-iends of niinoanj fjioUo to them about it, and they said : "All right, you are just the persmi lor it." 7838. What did you do after that ?— I put the tender into ii lelur box in this man's otHco that called for tho tenders, and I wailed fm- some time. 7S3:». What office was that?— The Canadian Paci tie Railway Pay. master's office. 7840. Who was ho ?— Thomas Nixon. 7841. Whore was the letter box? — The letter box w; inhisoffi door; it is thei'o yot. 7842. Can you produce a co])y of the advoi'tisoment which yuu saw? —Yes; this is it. (Exhibit No. 103.) I'lit ti'iidcr Into Ictlcr liox In Nixon's office. M Advci'llsciriciit for tendcM'. 7843. Did you put it into that box before tho timo named in udvcrtisomeni? — J put it in the box before tho timo named in advortisomont. llie contmct given 7844. Did you hear anything moro of tho tender ? — I hoard in a low ut »")0o a month : days afterwai-ds. The time wa;; so short my friends said tome; "Thoio wItnosK tendered • • x- .. t •». i i_ i iu *• l . at4.'>oi.«. a mile, 18 "o U80 in you oxpocting to got it ; ho has made tho time so (?horl l»'.l!!!'„V?i"i''lViT® that there is no use in tendering; iiO will have it arranged for some nnionnted to only ^. , ,, r i -i.!. r • i o • e ii u it $L'4()atrip. friends. 1 arranged with a friend of mine for the horses, ami by- and-bye J found out that tho thing was given out for $500 a month. I tendered for 45 cts. a milo in and out. 7845. How much would that have amounted to for each trip?— It would amount to $240 a month, I think. 7846. Do you know at what rate the contract was actually let ?— I do not know, only I heard it was given for $500 a month. 7847. Did you over hear any reason why your tender was not accepted?— Ho told me he never received it. I went there anil asked him; there was a friend of mine in tho office at the time, Capt. Howard, and he said he never saw it. I told him that I had put it in the letter box, and at the samo time, fcr fear of it going astray, I put a stamp on it. Then I asked him how he gave it to a man without a tender, and ho said it was none of my business. 7848. Who said that ?— Mr. Nixon. 7849. I mean who was it spoke to him in that way ? — I went to Mr. Nixon to enquire what became of the tender, and told him that I had heard that a man had got $500 a month for carrying the mail in and out. He said that he had not seen my tender; and then I told Capt. Howard about it. Capt. Howard was Mr. Nixon's book-keeper. 7850. You were talking to Mr. Nixon in the presence of Capt. Howard? — Yes; both of them were together. Ntxon Haid he had not received wltness'H tender as did Capt. Howard. •I'Jl JAMES R/AN T-.')!. l>o \()ii know wlictlier llicro wlto aiiv IcikUt.s boMitU's \t)ur> '.' _1 c(>iiM not Miy. 7852. J>id you i!Vor lu'iir tliero woio?- I iliil lieur llioio worc! two ididl'I'M tllClV. ;8')I{. Whoso loiidors? — I ihink oiu! was fiom a man iianu'd Spciicc, iiul iliodllior was from a man natnod Hiiikc. I 011I3' hoard so. 7 ')\. \\ as this lettor-box an open lotlcf-hox ? I mean liad il an opon- ini; 1)11 till- oulsido of tlio d<»or ? — Tho box was on tho insido, but Iho npt'iiiiif,' was on iho outside — Just llie (-amo as in ibo po.st-otlico hero. 7^;)'). I'itl you consider that it was made for tho j)urposo of receiving liters loi' that office ? — ^'es; 1 put .several letters in that l)0x lioloro ihat ami t5(;. Were they reecivod ?— There was only a tax notice that I put ihore for Mi'. Kowan, and bo saj's ho never saw it. I put that in as 1 ^^•ils sworn to deliver every one of them, but bo told mo aftorwanfs iliiit ho never got that assosatnent pupor. I told Mr. itowan that tho |ii)X was a very awUvvard arrangement. 1 told him that 1 had put the Kiiijer there and they never got it, and I put bin assessment there and he nev(ir !^ot il. Mo said tho box was all right. 1 said : '' If it is all right von oii^lit to get your papers all right." 7857. Oo you remember whethor thoro was any por^on else in tho nllico doing work thure, except Capt. Howard, at that tim«i? — Vos ; Julm Parr did work there . 7S.')S. In what copucit}-? — Stoi-e-keuper, I think. 78.VJ. Was ho in tho employ of tho (iovornraent?— He was. 7SG0. Was tliere any one else besides Howard and Parr ? — That is all, 1 think ; hut thoro used to bo a lot of people in and out thoro. I could imisiy if they wore working thoio — only Howard and Parr. 1861. Then you have no moans of knowing whethor your tender wiis actually received or not ?-No ; 1 have not. TSGU. You have Mr. Nixon's word that it was not received ? — Yes; and Capt. Howard told mo bo hud not soon it. T8()3. Have you any doubt that you delivered it in that box ? — I am ^lll•e 1 j)Ut it iu tlio box, because 1 had made arrangements foi- tho lioi-es, us I thought I would have got the contract ; and the parties who ;,'ot it told me atlerwardH : '• You could not furnish horses to take that mail thoro." 1 said " What is to hinder mo ? 1 have got as many horses :is you have got." 7864. Who told yon that ? — Mr. Alloway ; he is a gentleman in town. 1 uskcU him bow much he got for it? and I said: " 1 will take a sub- iiiiiiniot from you." He said : " 1 bavo already given it to a half-breed." TSi!.'). Is thoro anything fuithor about this matter which you wish to ixplain ?— No ; nothing more. 78fiG. Kavo you had any other business transaction on account of ilie Canadian Pacific Railway ?—TS'o ; none. 7s()7. Had you any other tenders? — No, I iiad not; only the one. KlxiinN I'lir- t «'y»i-«ilil|>- 4/'nir> lii^ .WmIIm. 'r<>u«l«'i'luK' lli'iird tlicrc Well' otlii'i- timlcis liosldeN IiIh. Till' Ipox in wlilrli li»' |nit IiIh t-ciKlfr, II li'lttT linx hi whicli \w had |>iil Ht'Nc'iiil lellcrs. .John Piiir In offli-e as sture- kei'per. Witness lias ni> niouns of kiiow- liiji wht'llier tender wrn i>'- celved or not. O tiered to take u sub-contract from Alloway wlio told liltn lie had (liven it tu a li;ilf-breed. 1 STRANG 492 IVIxoii*)! Par- Kn^ittfetl ill selli!!'; ijootis but not on Ills own iiccount. Baiinatyne's ))o«)U -keeper. SniMO tniiisac- I'.ins In name of witness hut not on liis account. .Sold uoods to >'l.\oii, .", provisions :uid stuff of that kind. I iluiik that was pi'incijuilly the whole thing. 788(5. Wei'e these sales made by ])nblic competition or by ]iiiv:iU' arrangement? — In nearly dveiy case llieywcre by public com jicUlioii; at least we wmc asked for tenders, not always by udvei'tiscMicnt ; but we were a^ked to give prices on a certain line of goods, and 1 under stood whoever was the lowest got it. 7887. In transactions of that kind would there boa fixeil tinioni which eveiy pei-ton must have made their offer before a decision was made? — Yes, generally at a certain time; noon, or a cei-iaiii limc of the day. was named. 7Sh8. Do you mean named verbally ?—Wlien it was by aJvoitise- nient oJ course it was mentioned in the advertisement ; and we were told to have this list in by a certain lime. If wo were handed a li>i and asked to tender on it we were told to have it by a certain time next day, or bomething of that sort. 493 STRANG L'counl of iho ii;ootlB?— Ye>. .nt altoifctlier, jales of which wholherl ciii! Ucr tluui you ic Ilailwaj-?— as an agent or [)er, of tluMii were. iC of them woiu it of cioine one — Doyoii nu'iiu .Ml'. ]S'i:>oii Miiil l!irou;^h Mr. )vn\ o'rocei'icN )iiiu'4ialiy the or by ]>iiv!itu coiiijiotilioii: I'tiM'iiiciit; liiit and I liiidei'- fixeil lime Mi I (iccisioii ^\'"' eriaiu lime of l.y advciti.lvod to **"»•«•"♦'•• attach prices? — I do not know thai they wore priiiteil. Some enifinecrs \\o\M COMIC in with a hiri^'o list of supplies wriitcn out — several cop;'!s of ilioni — which would bo supplied to the principal deahus, and they would be asked to tender on them. -3!)0. And Mr. Bannatyne being one of the princii)al doalors, your istiiblislimcnt would be asked to make an oifer as well as the others ? -Yes. TS'JI. 1>o you know, of your own knowledge, the practice which was ;uloptcd towards other establishments? — 1 think it was sirailar. 7SJ2. Do you know? — No further than I surmise tiiat it was the .^amo. 7893. You a.ssume it was the sumo? — Y'es; that everybody was on thcsi'me level. 7801. Ikt you have no moan.s of judging, of your own knowledge, how it was really managed ?— No; except from hearsay. 7895. Besides these transactions in which you took part in your own busIhoss tnm.'^iic- name, woi-e you familiar with other transactions in Mr. Bannatyne's ernment'ifttteriy name? — Yes; it is some length of time since. Latterly there were a if" Bannatyne's" iot of transactions in Mr. Bannatyne's name. It amounted to the same "^^" na"»e. thing, whether it was in his name or in my name. 7896. Were the goods from his establishment and the tran'^aetion fur his benefit or loss, as the case ni.ight bo? — Yes. 7397. Wei'O those transactions v.-iiicli took place in Mr. Bannatyne's oAvii name conducted in the same maniior you have described as those eonductcd in your own name ? — Yes, 7898. What other establishments wore v-onsidored to be loading ostnhli.shinents at that time? — Jjyon, Higgins A: Young, Sutherland, iho Hudson Bay Co., and Snyder & Anderson, were the piincipul ones. 7899. Besides the transactions between Mr. Nixon and Mr. Banna- Tr.iii-^aotionson tyno, on the CTOvernment a'X'ount, are you aware of any transactions {Ipuvt.e'^/'x'j x?,','i' a upon private account? — Between Mr. Nixon and Mr. Bannatyne ? Ban lat.vne. 7900. Yes ? — They have had transactions on private account. 7901. Are you aware of any advantage which Mr. Nixon oblainee(pience of his dealing with Government matteis? — Xo ; J am not, 7902. Not any advar.tage .'' — Not more than any other btisiness men Nixon paid r.n- woiihl have got in the same transaction. That is to say, any pui'chases JuMvaVo'm.loi'inr ihal Mr. Nixon made from Mr. Ba-malvne he would pay for as any H'>'» Hannatync ,1 „ I 1 .4 ii " at the usual i:it,('s. other person would pay for them. 7903. Do you mean to s;iy that he always paid the valuo or price of the goods which he got in lull ? — Yes. 7904. Was there never any reduction man to mont olUcor ?— I do not know that he wassi)ccially j; (Jovernmentotlicer. I'L'rwntiiiscount. Ho use. I to run a private account, and get IH per cent, discount as wo |[.t ^1 jiiive allowed to other ])rivale persons. We havo allowed boirding- hoiises the same rate. They wei-e ( harii,ed at full |)ricos, and ho was allowed 10 per ceni. discount — that is, on purchases on his own private atToimt. X.. STRANG 404 Mixon's Piir- vcyorMlilp — SiiitpiieM. 7!)Ur). Do ym say that Iho discounts mudo on his privutii ti'ruisactjiMiv wcro no greatei' than tlio discount on other person's privulo tniusaotiou^ to simihu- amounts ? — Ves ; 1 saj- that. per^cenrA^T''' '" TDOiJ. D.) you i-cmoml)cr to what extent these discounts woi'c made? privatf account. — Ahout H) per cent., and nothing more than that. 1 have not lool{^.,| lip anything lately; but that is my recollection of it. 7907. And do you say that at the titno it was the practice of leadimr establislinients to make discounts on ])rivate transactions to thatoxiout'? — f say that we were in tlie habit of supplying other people who boui'lit largely dui-ing the month, and giving at the end of the month 10 tioi- cent, on the settlement. 7908. Do you mean such as Mr. Nixon boughton his private acpniint, or such as ho purchased on the Government account ? — No. on hi, private account. 7909. Are you aware whether at that time he was in any bu«iiiHss on his own account ? — I do not think so. 7910. Then his e.^pensos or purchases would be those of a pi'ivatc individual of his standing as far as you know? — Yes, for his liouse: his butter and groceries, and all that sort of thing. 7911. Have you any idea what would be the ordinary purchases ot a man in his situation, for a year, of that kind of goods ? — I do not know. What 1 could judge from M-ould bo from m}' own expenses, 1 suppose. 79i2. You could judge from the actual fact of his expenses ?—l do not remember now exactly what they were. I could not tell you fiom recollection whether they were $20 a month, or only $10, or $50. We have not had any dealings for seven or eight months, 1 suj)po8e, or a year. lloiiae Rented. Rented Govern- ment r store- itoiiHe. $:i({amon(b. Made arranKe- mcntH with Nlxou. 7913. Did you ever have any other transaction with the Government, either on your own account or in your own name? — I rented them a storehouse. 7914. lien ted to the Government? — Yes. 7915. AVhere was that store-house ? — Just bacK of here. 7916. On which street ? — On Annie street, 7917. At what rate did you rent that? — $36 a month. 7918. Was it a written lease between you and the Government?— 1 think 1 did give them a written lease. It is sevei'al years ago now, and I forgot. 7919. Do you remember who signed it on the part of the Govern- ment? — I would not be sure whether Mr. Nixon signed it on their part or not. 7920. With whom did you negotiate the terms upon which it was t^ be rented ? — With Mr. Nixon. 7921. Ho decided, on the part of the Government, what rent would be given ? — He accepted the rent which was charged. 7922. Did you propose the amount of the rent ? — 1 do not romeniber now, I am sure, but 1 suppose so. 495 STRANG. iv uusincsis 7023. How long did it remain rented in that way ? — It ninst have been ii couple of years, oi* nearly that, or pei'hai)^ more ; I would not bo >ure. (924. Wiift the i*ate of the rent changed during that period ? — No. 792.^. After that aiTangement ended did you rent it to anv jiei-son el^e?-No. 7926. Has it been rented since? — Stobart & Eden own the propoi-ty now. They paid, I think it was, $-1,000 for it. 71127. AVhilo you had the power of renting it, did yi u rent it to any one else after the Government ceased to be j'our tenant ? — Not uliile [ had the power of renting it. 792S. Do you remember how long you had the power of renting aftei' they ceased to be your tenant ? — No. . 792'J. Do you remember how long aftei- that Stobart \ Eden became interested? — No ; I could not remember just now. 79.']0. While this arrangement between you and the Government lasted, who was tlie person interested in the amount of rent paid ? — The building belonged to Mr. Nixon, T931. Then knowing that, whom do you suppose was interested in the amount of rent paid? — I suppo.so he was. 71)32. Do you know any person else who was interested in the amount ot rent paid ? — No. T933. Then have you any doubt about the person who was in- terested ? — No ; J have not. 7934-5. Was it Mr. Nixon ?— Ves. 79S6. Did any person else, on the part of the Government, take part in the arrangement that you made Jis to tlio amount of the rent to bo paid?— I do not think so. 1 u.iderstood Mr. Nixon to say that lie had reported to Ottawa the amount of it ; that he hatl been paying more for ;orae other building on Post-Otfice street than that, pi-evious to the time it was rented to the Government. 7937. How did it happen that you had the power of renting it when Mr. Nixon was the person interested ? — lie leased it to me, and I leased I it to the Government. 7938. By a wi-itten lease ? — Yes. 7939. Was that before you made the arrangement to lease it to the Government? — Yoi. 7940. Al>)ut how long before ? — Not very long before. 7941. Was it understood between you and Mr. Nixon at the time [ that you took that lease from him that you were to lease it back to I the Governmen t ? — Yes. 7942. That was part of the arrangement? — Yes. 7943. Do you know how long he had owned the lot befoie that? — LVo; I really do not. It may have boon six months or more before Itliat. I do not know exactly. 7944. Do you know from whom he had bought it? — Ho bought i' jfiom Mr. Bannatyne. KItom** Pnr- v<'yorNlli|t~ lloii.s«' Kviit<-.ss ami (jov- ermiiHiit a,s to llii.s storc-hoii.si' l;i.st('(l, tlie hiiilil- ii)$; heloiigi'd in Mt.\oii. NIxou leased tin- property to wit- ness, ami witness leased It to the Ooverntneiit, At tliiK' of taking lease from Nlxou it wa» understood that witness w«s to lease It to Ooverninent. Nixon had boHRlit lot. from Bannatyne soon after arriving In "Winnipeg. ■Wjt^^^^ STRANG 490 Price paid by Nixon lor lot with CraiiK! biiiltiinj^, $1(10 would liavo ]%'ixnii*«i I»i«r- vnvt Inl^as^iVwaRwium ^^ould bo the cxponso probably required to fix it up?— I siippise .S40i|| rontod ioGov(!rii- at the lowest. jnent. 7951. It would require as much as that?--l tliink so. 7952. Do you say that Mr. Nixon told you that he luul reportol \\ the e(f it. 7955. Is there any other matter connected with the Pa ifl • ila iiviM which you would like to explain? — 1 have nothing to explain MANNING. Ar.KXANJiKR Manxin<}, sworn and examined : c:n;V;;^ri5;:.,2. BytheChaimon:^ 7956. Where do you live ? — In Toronto. 7957. Have you been interested in any trausactions connected vvi the Canadian Pacific Railway? — I am interested in section ]>, coiitiacj 7958. Was that work let by public competition ? — Yes. iieciime iniorcst- 7959. Woi'e you interested in any of the tenders made for il?-j llriint Ai'it'wado. was ; I subsequently became interested in a tender of l''ra-ier, (ri'iinl k Pilblado. 7900. Wore you not also one of tho original tenderers? — Yca; onj tender was hi^-her than theirs. 497 MANNING re \va.sL:oiiJ ;;)(;l. Tlioii your own tcndci- did not Ijocoine Uio suocossfiil one ? — i"JtiL\ A lowoi- one, wliicli yon s;iy was ni:u!o by Frascr, (li-ant i*v: IfiiMado, was succosst'til ? — \o^ ; they gol the (.'(jntracl. j'.irJi. Diu you become inlorcstcd in llicii- contract bofoi-e it "was |.;,var(k'(l to tbcin ? — No ; I had vavy little t'» do with them. When it |,i;,< known that thei'o were two or three tenders bolow my tender, I iliil not interest myself much. In fact, I nevei* took a ^leat deal [if iiUorcst in tjictling the contract; I merely entered into it to help |(i>lnr poojile — old Ml', McDonnell. 1 would never have tondei'ed on j-jiv portion of the Pacilic Jiailway at all, hud it not been foi- those Ki'i'tio.s soliciting me to join them. 7:164. Which parties do you mean ? — Alexander McDonnell and his ijeplicw. and Mr. lshe>ter. 1 had intended to I'etii'c; from that kind of liu^iiic-s altogether ; 1 had not been feeling very well. 'DCS. As to this tender wliich was Huccossful ; did you not become M.ioicstod in it before it was actually known to bo successful ? — No. ;9ijii. I understood one of the gentlemen who is present — one of your laitiiers — to say that an arrangement was made with them — that is |Fra-er and Pitblado— that if they became the successful tenderers ili:U you and your ])artners were to share in it, and that an arrange- ',ml was made bcfoi-e it was known whether it was successful or not? |-Tlj!it I do not know. Of course I was very little in Ottawa; I do not like goini>; there much, and unless the matter came I'ight up to ine |(jireit 1 did not meddle with it at all. 7907. Then if there were such negotiations, the}' were carried on by 'ihor ])ersons ? —Yes. 7'JuS. And 3'ou took no part in it yourself? — No further than this: I was introduced to Mr. Fi'aser and Mr. Pitblado in Oltaw'a, and we llaikxHl ihon ; the others had brought about this meeting. When I was (jowii there at one time they showed what theii' tender was, and 1 lilioiiuht their prices wei'e pretty fair ; and it was suggested then would liiiioi be |)ossible to form a jiartner.ship in the event of the woi-k coming |Mtliem, and they seemed as being favourable to it. I'dO. That is the Nova Scotia men seemed to speak favourably of it? I-Ves; they thought it would be all right. •I'O. Did that result in any positive arrangement on the subject? — Iwcourso the other parties were very much interested in getting this pvoik, I was not. 7'J7l. You mean your other partners?— Yes, Shields and McDonald ; lliicy wore interesting themselves a great deal to got the work. It was la matter of indifference to me whether I got it or not — in fact, 1 would jiiistas soon not have got it. (972. Did you understand that any negotiations had ended in a jbrgain before you left Ottawa? — No; there was none at all then. The tirsi 1 knew of it was, I think, Mr. Shields either telegraphed, or wrote line, that he thought those parties were wanting to back out of it ; that jthey wore not disposed to enter into any agreement or writing on it ; jlbat thoy were wishing to leave it an open question. I had heard that Jtliey were negotiating with other narties. H2 Tt'iiiloriiiB— t'»iitriic'l So. 4'i. Dkl not hocomo InU'resteil with Krascr A Co. until alter tlipy luul Kot till- ('i)ii. tr.'ict. Motivo which Ipil Iilin to seok toLC'it the con tract : hi'iH'volenofi towjinls otluT IK-rsoiis. If any arran^ft- nii'iit was iiuuU' on tlu' .specula- t ion that tlic; con- tract would tali to one of tlic two Hrni.s witness knew notlilngof it. Mot Fraser A Pit- hlailowho showed what their tender was. He thought theirprieesiiretiy fair .SusTKcsted that a partner- slilp lui^lit bo formed. A matter of In- dlftercuce to wltnes.s whether he got contract or not. Received tele- gram from Hhiclds that Fraser i& Co. wero trylnji to back out. MANNING 498 Tenilerliia:— Cunliiu'l 5(o.'lS. 71'73. Who wcro ncf:;otiating with other parties? — Frasor and 7!)7+. At what sta<;o of tho all'air did j'oii understand (hat j-our pur:.] ners became ab-oluloly interested? — Ne\or, ualil we put up ti F ecnritios juit iiii bhulo; I had not seen (r ran tat all. Did not iinilor- (itaiul that. Ills pannors had iipconu! intorcst- c(l until thi'y put moiiev. up tho inoncy. 71)75. Before that it was only an open proposition which iiiIljI!! 1. accepteil or not? — Ves ; that mi>,'ht be broken oft' ornol. Of c(min,. when tney sent (or ine to como down, that tho arran^'cnieut was goii!:; to be cai-ried out, I wont down, and brouifht down my sliai'o ot ili-i security then. At tliat lime Fniser was tho only man who w;is ll^i •, 7076. lie was tho reprosonf alive of tho Nova Scotia (inn ?—^e<: and his firm had not come, and he was in a yreat state oC cxcitomc:' I'or fear that they would not get here, because that was the day it ii;;j to be on or off. 1 got down in the morning, and he stud Uiu ihln; had to be completed at oi.ce or he would get other part'^ -. 7077. That was tho last day given for ])utting up the sccurilio> .'- That was the last day ; and i sent to Mr. Frascr that I was prepaiL'i, McDonald was not quite prepared with his ptii-t of tho secmitv, bu: Shields had his security all but a smtdl sum, and I made up iho dilk'r- once for Shields to put up liis share. Dui ing the interval Frasei- iji! not know that tho money bad been put up, and he stiid at tv.Mv.. o'clock the matter would be off. Thtit vvas wluit 1 understood. 7978, Vou h(ard it from Frasor ? — No, ho stood aloof nitlior I thought he wanted to get rid of tho arrtingomoiit ; tind I was iuroinul that he went otf to got (ioodwin, of Montretil, to put up tho security, an! that Goodwin had put uj) a hundred and some odd thousand doilais. 7079. Probably it is Goodwin, of Otttiwa. you mean ? — Yes ; Goodwin, I of Oltawii, tho contractor. [ had voi y little to do with it, as I veiv| seldom go to Ottawa. 1 only go as seldom as I can possibly help. 79S0. Then you were tibsont from Ottawa during lliese prelimiiiarvl negotiations, which ended in no bargtiin, until tho day the seciiritios were put up? — Yes ; tliat was the time there was anything detinite, 7981. Do you romombor now that you were given to understaiiJ, I before you went to Ottawa that day, that there had been a positive, 1 idnding bargain between Shield.*", J. J. McDonald, or cither of then, on the ■no part, and Frasor, Grant fc Pitblado, or any one of them, on the other part, as to a partnership being arranged between you ?— liie only thing that I undei stood — I lo not know that I am right insavin^' what 1 understood 7982. Were you informed by any of those people — Pitblado or any \ of them ?— No; I did not see Pitblado but once. 7383. But your partnei-s might have written to you about it ?— No; the only thing I understood was from Shields, in Toronto. He men- tioned to mo that if the contract was awarded to them tlie Govornment | would not object to our being associated if the parties were wil themselves. Never understood , co"wel-e"winint 7984. Then you had not been led to believe tho parties themgekes to join witness's were willing and had agreed to it?— I never understood it until we| flrtn until the , ... ° ., '^ , r ,1 1 ^ •. ^1 w ,„„., transaction wa8 closc'U th© transaction ; in lart I thought it was the oijposite way closed. Fraser stood bIooC. Wiiiicss iiiloniipd that he wanted to get rid oCarranfreineiit, and had gone to (ioodwm to 1,'et security. 41)9 MANNING 'IVlMllTlllg — Con (in it So. 4!). 798.'). 1 tio not know wliellior y.)ii uro aware of it, but il appears in (,\\ii oi tlic Blue liooks (hat a Icltcv was written to the Mininter, stating that he had made an ahsoiuto agreennent? — I do not know anything;; of tliat. 7:t8(]. If so, voii haw never been informed of it?—! have no reeol- t-;!"'"- yoiiiinKof ' ' •' the 1ft tcr I nun krlioM of it at pi-e.sent. T'JST. The letter read.- KrasLT, (iriint it Co. to Mh)lstor proposhKr to nsso- " Ottawa, ILth February, 1670. ^i;'l,j:^:';i\',I;;;;;,, '•Sii!,— We lieg li'Hve to iiil'oim \ ou tliat should tlie contract for section B of the vi'.'i')''''' 'li Ciina'liiin I'acilic Kailwuy l)e alluned to us, on our t.'ntlur, we are jirepared to ' '' """ ' ' aisucitiie with us Messrs. Mantiinj;, .Shields & ,VI(d)otui!d. " Yours respectfully, " f UASKli, (jI'ANT & PlilU.ADO. Mlon. U. Tii'i'KH, C.B , " Minister of Public Works.'' Wha; date wa.s the contract ?— On the .Tth March, 187!), tlio iiiotu y to be ptit up on Siitiirchiy, the 8th March. I w;is not (h)wn in (juiuva then, and, of course, 1 conk! not have known of tliis letter at that time. 71'88. Unless by some communication ? — I do luit think tliere wotUd bo any communication sent.v H pe'son connected with any of the Departments? — No. 1 may have talked to persons that I was tendering for the work. 1 know a great many otticers in the Department, and I am on intimate terms with ir tendering h;- them for the last thirty years. Of course if [ met them I would shake "aikeu w'ltii hands with them and talk wiili them, but not on this work, unless I them. was tendering, or something of that kind. 7994. Did you take part in any negotiation by which this contract, or the awarding of it to Fi-aser & Grant or any member of your firm, was* made more likely than it would have been but tor such negotiation ? —No. 7995. Did you leave it to bo awarded in the regular eounfe? — Yes. 3-i MANNING 500 Tcitil<-iiii|{ — <'OMlravl So. 43. l)'ul not know hcMorc the foii- tract was award- 0(| lliat ("lose Wilis fu have l)0(>ii 1)111' of tlio surotlcs lor Morse A Co. Sliiclils iiicnlion- c'tl lo Manning tliat lie wanted C'losp lo liavo an interest. Close t-nnie into office and nien- tioucd matter. Agreed to give Close one twenty- I'oiirth Interest. Thinks the time to put up security by Close for Morse & Co. had expir- ed at the time witness and his partners made agreement to give him one twenty- fourth. 79Ut). ] lliiiik you said tliiit yini lofl OUnwa wlieii you a-r.'ii;iiii,.[ that thoro woio .sevoral luwor tondor.s than your.s?— Yus. 7!*n7. Do yoa ronn'mhor wlio wa.s coiisithM-ed to bo the lowest at liiit timo?-! really do not know. 7lMt8. Hy the Public Accounts Morse it Co. ."pinjai- lo l,j (jn, lowest; does that retVesh your menioiy on the Hul)iect? — Tlit'io woi,. several lower (eiiders. Marks \' Connieo had n lower (jiie than iiiiiji. and Mor.se A: Co. wtie llie lowest ol'all, as far as I can I'enuMnboi'. 7!n)il. J)o you I'omeniber whether it wan understood, before iLl- iom- ti'act was awarded, tliat a ^'cnlleman in Tor-onto, Mr. Close, wa-t Id i,o one of the sureties for Morse & Co. ? — 1 did not know it at the time. 8000. Did you not know it before the avvardin<^ of (he contiju't?-. No; J knew it aftorwards by the printed re])ort that was subiniuej !,j Parliament. 1 saw his name down a.s surety. SOOl. Were you awaro of anj^ arrangement by which his putlin^nip til is security jor Moi>e k Co. was prevented or delayed ? — No ; wliat 1 do recollect was (I believe that Shields alluded to it hero in his eviiioiK.' who the party was. whether it was Andrews, Jones & Co,) that Moi'm- & Co., I understood, were ruled out, and that the contract weni tn Andrews, Jones & Co.; but it appears to mo that the day Mr. .Sliiuliis spoke to mo I was in at his place of busino>s, at five o'cl"ck in tji,. evening, and lie mentioned to mo that ho wanted Mr. Close— in cun' wo got this work — to get an interest, lie said that Mr. (ylose was to have been a surety for some of the parties, but that the time htid ex- pired that day. That day was the last for putting up the secuiily, aini Mr. Close came into the otlice, into this room — while ho was there an I he mentioned this. IIo said he was not going to bo security for them, but if wo would give him, if we got the contract, an intere-it with u>, that he woulii like to join in with us. Mr. Shields had mentioned tlii? befoio Mr. Close came in, and, of course, Mr. Close mentioned this matter i.imsclf. I told Mr. Shiehls before "what ditt'eronce does i: mako about bringing (-lose in." I did not know whether the oUiei' parties would assent to it. At any rate Shields was very pressin^Mi get Close in, and from our intimate act|uaintanco wo agreed to give Close a twenty-fourth interest. 8002. Upon that occasion that agreement was made ? — Yes. 8003. You pay that was the last day for putting up the security tiir the firm lor which ho was to be a security? — Yes; I think the time had expired. 8004. That day ? — Yes; that day. I am certain what 1 undor-tooij Close to mention was that thoy wore making him offers that he wotiM have all the supplies and some other things if ho would go security for them. 8005. Do you think tho time for putting up the security for the tiim for which he had arranged to bo security had expired that day?— Ye,s; it had expired that day. I think, according to the reports published, the security was to have been up that day at throe o'clock. 8006. And was this after throe o'clock ? — It was after five o'clock. 8007. Then at the time of that conversation you understood that his principals had no longer any chance of becoming contractors ?— Yes ; 1 felt convinced of it. 601 MANMNQ ii)08. Had tlioro Iioeii any nc<;o'i.iti(>n.s from tho lioL!;iniiin<^ that your inn was to g'wo a t«liuro to Closo ? — Xover, uiit I thou. fOOD. lliid it not been iinilorstool, as far as you know, belwoon >onio (if voui- tirni, either Shields, McDonald anil yourself on the one p:wt, ii;ilClo^o on tho other |>urt, that if he Hhotild perform ceitain conditions ,[,;,t ho would always Le entitled to como in and taUo a share? — No; f;„t up to that time. jOlO. Do you know anything about tho npLCOtiations by which a .\Ir Smith, or some person of that name in New York, wa'^ induced to .vithilraw from his proposal to put up security for Andrews, Jones A in, ?— 1 do not. SOU. [t has been said by some of the witnesses hero that there were some negotiations of that kind at Ottawa ; do you know wheilior you ueic there at the time of those negotiations? — No; I have already .uitod that 1 was not down at Ottawa at that time. S012. Were you made aware of that transaction and that tho firm ivoio to bear a portion of the expenses ? — Of what transaction ? ■1:013. Tho transaction by which Mr. Smith was silenced or induced lit to put up the security for Jones iSc Co. ? — I did not know anything I fit. 1 have heard since. SOU. At what time ilo you think you first heard it? — Some time al'ci' the conti act was allotted — some considerable time afterwards, I •Jijnk. [ was very much surprised to hear it. 8015. Have you taken any active part in tho management of tho atliiirs of the contract ^'■ourself? — Not on tho works. [ look after tho /etting of supplies forwarded, and all the monetary transactions. 8016. Others of tho firm are upon the work looking after the active Eanngoment of it ? — Yes. 8017. Is there any other transaction on account of tho Canadian Pacific ilailway in which you have been interested? — No; unless that with Mr. Close. The condition on which Mr. Close enteied into that was ;iiat ho was to put up his share of the money — that is, provided Fraser 1.V Grant and those would approve of it. I uid not like it myself, but it was so piessed ; but 1 have had my idea since that because of ;he relations — business relations — between Close and Shields, His I'lsiness conditions had changed very much from what I supposed ;hcy were at tho time the contract was entered into. I found out >liorlly after the contract was entered into that ho had failed, and I jiippose his business relations with Close got me to get Close to join !he partnership and put up bi& share of the money and do his shaie of ihe work. 8018. Is there any other matter connected with the Pacific Railway, txct'pt this contract 42, in which you are interested ? — No. 8019. Have you any other matter concerning the Pacific Railway which you wish to explain to the Commission? — No; nothing that Iknow of. In fact I never chai'ged my mind. If I had supposed that an txamination of this kind was to take place, I should have taken care to iiiive noted it down. I have a large business of my own, and sometimes my memory, I ike others getting up in years, is not so good, and I do not keep these things in my mind unless I note them down. I havo TriKlcriiii;- tliitil llicii no lu- ;,'()Ilatiiin«i lu u'l v Knows iiollitny ol lu'iiotliii ion-, liv- wlili'h .Snillli of ' Xt'w York \v;is iniliiiH'il not to (Hit iipsii-urlty loi' Allihi'WS, Joni:- A- Co, Sonic tinii' M'tor contract was allottcil liparit oC tills niattci'. T.ooks after t lie .«U|i|(llcs and linancc. Condition on wlili'li :inri'(!inont niailc with Close, '^ MANNING 50-: IiifliiciictiiK Cl<-i-ks, A-f. jr witncim had oblalnoU kiiow- U'Alge through an officer In the De- partment ht> would never liavo ri'vealed It. ObllKntloii of an oatli. TeiitlerliiK— Conti-nct NO. 4!i general ly a pretty goaid, and jimi must take the responsibility of recording your measure of the value ol the oath ? — I appreciate the value of the oath, and if on any matter i am called upon fairly to give my evidence under oath 1 am voiv much annoyed at what has taken place. 8026. As you have stated that while giving evidence, of course it !■* the duty of the rep)i-ter lo record it. Is there any other matter wliicii you wish to explain ? — No. 8027. i'ou do not know about the progress of the work ■.•'- Yoti; 1 Progress of work, know pretty geuerall}' about the progress of the work. Py Mr. Keefer : — 8028. Are you getting on with reasonable dispatch, and what tiiiio o far as thiy related to the I'acitie JJiiilway ? — No. NIXON. I'nyniu^lM'-iiiiiI- riiytiifisfcr :ili(l t)Uiv< vur lor Caniuiliiti I'ai'UU.' J ailwiiy I'lniii Pl>l liii; 111' |s;,",. Piitlps : purcliasis for I'liiilnctTS Diit on surveys; pay- uit'Mts ; trans- FefelveiitK< fet of books kept for (.'aiiadlan I'aciftc Railway transactions. Con kiln, and D. S. Currip, book- keepers. TiidMAs Ni\)N, sworn and examined : Bij the ( liitinniin • — SO.!!!. Where do you live? — At SI. iioiiiface West, near Wiiiiii|)i;,'. 8i)i(). IIa«l you at any time any connection with the ^lovoriiiiKtit interests, HO far art they rohited to the Canadian I'acilic njiilwii} .'— I had ; I was paymaster and purveyor for the Canadian Pacific Kuilwav, 8011. l''i'oni what time? — From tlie '^piini^ of 187."), f presume; ( dM not come here in the interest of the Canadian Pacific Railway. 8042. ^'oii wore hero before that?— I was iicro before thai ii. iIm Mounted I'oliee. I forget what month it was. It was in 187.'), I il,;iik, that I was appointed. I came here, I tiiink, in 1874 — one MHiivtiiiK- forgets date-i. 8043. Until what time wcio you holding that ollico? — Until a ycur ago last January. 8044. Tiic beginning of the year 1879 ? — Yes; the beginning n| ih, year 1879. 804."). Can you describe generally "hat your duties wore in C(iiiii(.(tiri;i with the Pacific Railway? — i had to make all ])urchases for tlio I'lij;:- noers who were out on the sm-. . y and make all payments to the men, and for tho.se purchases, and do Iho transporting. 8040. Were .special instructions given to you with regard t'> the Pacific Hailway as distinguished from your duties towards tlio nlbir Departments ? — Yes. 8047. Were they in writing? — They wore in wj'iting. 8048. Have you any eo])ies of them ? — No ; they are in the otiirc, or they sliould be ; 1 left all the documents in the oliico. 804!> Do _you remember whether a separate .sot of books woi'c kept for the pur[))se of Pu-itic Kaihvay matters? — Yes; a .separate .set wy-' kept. 8050. In that set no transactions ought to find place which were connected with any other Doparttnont ? — Xo ; nor do 1 think they cli Hi.U. Mail yoii l)oon Ufcustotm-Ml to kiop li nks yoiiiscH?— Noiu' ; ii*„',u!I14'',!I'|!1mb. ,xn'|it {'i>v my own piivute husiiicss. ^05'). IIii'l you liL't'n on^a/^cod iti any ImsinosM? — Yo-f, sifiil. \VI"vt kind of biisincH.s ?~I was a i^'onoral merchant in Now- i,,:iiket— ^i'< 'oi'it'^ and dry ^oods. 1 was also oii<;a^od in businosfi in T.n)nto, in wdoI and hides. >i(i,')7. Had it hocii nocosmry tor you to kcop hooks iti Ihosi- ditVercnt ii;iiiities of businoss lor yoursolf? — Ves, cortainly ; I hud hookdvoojiors. -Oj'^. i>id you oxeruine any siiporvinion over the hookM yoursolt? — I ,;;,! iioni linio lo time. -ii.V.'. Au-yoii «c<|uaintod with tht> /^'cnorid roquiromcnis of hook- AcMiiiiiiitoetwen (..'oiiklin imd Ciirrlo. A«liitlui8trn- tion. Staff In oflioe. AgiiitR \n eliiirfio or ('iinadlnn PiifKic Kalhviiy interest. "Uenerally eacli |iiirty In the flel'' iiail with It an agent suhor- Pur> Aoiilil have no sub agent. The cook would be held accountable because A«iiniiriVtrH~ tlieie wa8 so little goods with them. *•«"• S085. The distribution of the supplies would be confided to tlio cook in small parties? — Ves; but it would only be where there would bo jwoor three men. For instance, 1 had a Mr. Hamilton to provide for ;,t Ijird's Hill and sometimes on the way to Lmerson. He h id no sub- sirents. There were two or three instances where there were only an !ixe man and cook and the engineer himself. 808C. Besides the general oiBce, in which the interests of these ditferent I'lopartnients were managed, 1 understand that there was a store ffiiicli contained the property of the Crovernment which might be iquiredfor the Mounted Police, the Pacific Eailway, and the Indian liopartment? — Yes. S0S7. Who had charge of that store ? — My store man, John Parr, — ider mc — and myself. SOSS. Who had the active manugeniont of it ? — I and John Parr. 80S9. J)o you mean that you were generally pi-osent when anything was taken in or given out? — Yes; pretty nearly always. Wo did not koe]i, as a general thing, goods. I did not buy any in advance of my :vi|iiii'omonts ; except in one instance I never bought any in advance of iiiv requirements. 8090. Then what would be in the store? — Goods that would be <»niy roinmod retained when those engineers would come back, and Mounted Police sfon^ '^*'''' '" ,'toros which would be returned; the goods sent in by the Mounted i'olice, damaged goods, sometimes; sometimes goods that they were tlirough w ith, and supplies for the Indian I)ej)artmeiit which would be -eiit under conti-act at a certain date preparatory to *heir being distri- i'iited to the points which 1 had to send them. soul. As far as those goods which you have last mentioiiod, the build- 'ing would be used merely for temporary storage? — That is all. S0112. Not for keeping stores as occasion might afterwards require ? stores rceivod -Wc received from Mr. Provencber, the),reviou8 Indian Commissioner, {'he pro v?ous"' ''*''" ;i idi of axes and sotue pork, and i think some tobacco, which 1 had to ino you remember whether in that store-book the Viijiios fmlv of the stores were entered, or only the numbers ? — Only the imiuln-iv, never the values. Wo could not arrive at that if wc wei'o iiiclinci \, do it, because the goods were not always new. 8101. Was lliere any value attached to these goods at the time \n:i took them over ? — No; reports of the goods remaining on luuid \\\|. furnished the (iovcrnmont from time to tiine, pci'sisteiitly, tliroui;! iii, my course. 810.J. J low woiili these statements be made up: would it In by deducting iiio ([luiiililies on har.d from the (|iK\iitities whiclihai been proviou>ly in store, or was it based on the values of them ?— Xn, not at all; on the values. 8l0b'. Then was a record kept uf the ([uantilies or amounts of r.uii kind of article ? — Yes. 8107. Look at yonr letter-boolc, page 9.i, and say if that is a >.!;iii'- ment. as far as you remember, of the goods whicii you took over iVoi; the gentlenum vou named in the beginning ?— Yes. 8108. That was the basis then of the store-book from the tiineviii commenced to 'lold olllec ? — Yes, but lliat is not the store-book; that is my report to Ottawa. 810!». IJiit what would be the first transaction recorded in your si u'c- book ? — Api il. 8110. I think you said the tirst was taking over those stores iliiiiii^' the month of April 187")? — Xo ; the tirst thing I took in was a lot of dogs from Mr. .larvis, that were returned from British Coliirtilii,", They may be properly regarded as almost the first record of sloiosbii' I do not know what engijieer they came from. G. BROWN. Fort Frnacc'H llHvii.— Bank J t'ceiiut. Maiiairer of Ontario Hank. Had Government, neeonnt under iHteCioverniuenl. (iKoK(;e Brown, sworn and examinoJ : By till! Chairman : — 8111. Where do you live? — In Wiimipeg. 8112. What is your occupation ?— Banker; bank manager. 8113. Of what bank ?— Ontario Bank. 8114. Have you liad tho accounts of any of the ofUcers connc-tol with the tJovornmont since you have bey should le drawn from the account and passed to Mr. Siithei land's private ;KC')i'ii^ or wiiether the general ])i"actico was that it should bo paid out i'ljinill sums to other parlies ? — Of course the cheques were si;^iieil ivliiin and coiintersimaller ledger containing the amounts : the debits and credits. -122. Did you Keep an account of any other officer of tlie Govern- Kept nuaccomit mini, bbvides M'\ NiKon, in conne(;tion"with the Pacific Kail way. For lviJhr\nTi*i('ii!ii^ ia-taiice, had V'.u ar! a'count tor any of his sub agents? — No; onlv a J'aibii!';otits, in o'-clor that Cliristian might disburse it for Government rpdsos ; ao you remember whether Mr. Christian would keep that :l^all otficia) account or private account? — 1 do not know that anything 01 that kind ever came up. Sl.'o. 1m it your vecdlection that Mr. Nixon's is the only account winch you had as un official account connected with the paymaster's cttice , ol'tho Faciti Railway ? — 1 think so. I do not remember any just now. It ffiis Bonv; ;> e ago, and & great many accounts liavo gone through Fort F'rnin-«'s I^ock — Biiiili Acc-oniit. 812i). Was noo this account of the Fort Francos Locks considered to Fort Krancus bi) a Government account? — Certainly. Usually all Govern nient .Vaovermnoia^^^ lacounts were placed in tho Government ledgers altogether. aceouat. ^127. This account was not put in the Government lodgers? — No ; R'^'^""') ;'',''>• 'j'o't II was sent in a ditferent form. If a letter of credit was given it would uw«Mmt not'in be put in tho Government ledger, ifu cheque was seiu it would be j^'^',^^[!""'^'"^ sent probably to them . 8128. Do you know why this account was not kept in the Govern- ment ledgers, if it was entirely for Government purposes, and only \ G. BROWN 510 ■■* , ■^ -) Fort Fraucett f jO«: k— Bank A«.'('oiiii(. Thinks credits wei'O sunt by clieiiii'" |>iiyal>le to I'RiiJc tor tsutliciliuitl anil LoLcan. In on'cct the way in whicli money came from Gov- ernuient into the liandsol'the hanli made no (lidV-r- enco in the way the accounts were manatifd. Clie,„ any ioat?on why it was not kept in the Govornnaont letli^ei-s ? — a (if'v. eminent uccount would bo credit advices. We would get advice iom 80 much to their credit from the Finance Department. 8129. Were these credits advised in this way? — No; thoy were >ortk bj' cheques. 8130. Payable to whom? -I imagine payable to the bank for iIk;., It mio-ht either bo sent to tiie bank, oi ••jeiiL to Mr. Sutheiland tu l'o i his account. The mtijority of then; tvere telegraphed. 8131. Do you iv.he diiVerence in the method of advire.< ?~[ is so long ago that 1 do not remember. It is so complicate!, li w.ii such a small distinction : one was a letter of credit. There was th'J ditf'erence : one was charged direct to advances and the nthei' waj charged to Dominion expetidilure. 8133. In effect, I suppose, it made no ditfereuco in the account No; it mtulo no dif'erence. 8134. No diifereiuc i'. the way in which you managed tlie account^ and disburscti the money ? — No; when it wont through the (iMvenl mont ledgers all the cheques Avent back to the auditor here. 8135. In this matter did the cheques go back down to Mr. .Siitliei-j land and xMr. Logan? — Yes, of coui-so; they had them for vouchers, 813li. I suppose the dilference is really this : that the other Gowini mont accounts wore subject to chetiuos payable by the oflieial lierJ counterf.igned by the particular auditor on the spot? — Soniolimel they were audited and sometimes they were not. 1 think the firsl ones of Mr. Nixon were not audited — then afterwards thoy weif audited by the Departments. 8137. I think that Mr. Drummond's recollection is that theywe:i always audited for the Canadian Pacific Eailway ? — Then Llie Mt iiiiki Police cheques were not. 8138. However, this particulai- account was subject to cheques coiia tersigned by a ditterent individual? — Yes; by Mr. Logtm, the master, and the superintendent. 8139. That may be the resison you put it into a ditteieiit lei'^vi .'- Vos; and it might not have been considere'Oi'iiihi|> — Buok-ktepiiiK- » Thomas Nixon's examination continued : By the Choir man : — 8140. When supplies were bought by you for the purpose ofdistrij bution very soon afterwards, would they appear in your storo-hook?- The supplies themselves, those that 1 sent out? &141. Yes; that is what I mean ? — No. 511 NIXON ley wcn> >or.J accounts .'- Mcnl ledn'oi''.'- imoiit awoui'.t Payiiiawter- nii4l-Piii-« SU2. [ iiiulcrstood you to say that sometimos the future would contain »iyoi»*iiii»- 1 • 1 1 1 I I'll 1 i> ■ !• MOOK-Kl'ClHIIS » (fflods which had boon obtained by you ror the purpose ot inirnodiato Jistribiition ? — ^Jo ; that would velafo to the Indian Department and lOtlo llie Canadian Pacific Jfailway Department. We had to keep stotk lijr the Indian Department, because Indians would be comin;'y o'^''*''' y>"" 1 r» -ii !-> •! o /^ 1 1 1 .( I . |m:v beyond my necessities, than the fifty bags of Hour. 8103. J)id 3'ou charge the fifty bags of flour to any account in v.i;;: books ? — I do not know that it was charged to any account. 8104. If you did not charge it would tho books show all thai tinjl ought to have shown '■' — Certaitdy, because there was a store-bt)ok. S105. But that was not ])art of the Pacitic Railway books ?—.\u : i did not say so. 810G. I'ut you said it belonged to tho Mounted Police and Iwlm Departmeul and Pacitic Kailway ? — No; we kej)t u sejiarate hook '.'■: each. Tho store man was a general store man for all parties, but i, i: t^hat store-book. 8 167. But that book in cflect forms, T suppose, part of your leili;or: — Yes ; in effect i so understood it, because it came under my own diiu.: cognizance. 81CS. Then tlio ledger does not show all tho transactions withoat tiio presence of tho store-book? — No ; it would go to make up. 8109. Supposing horses wore returned to you from some stimy which had been previously charged to that survey, would any cut v be made in your store-book as to those horses ?— Certainly ; and a receip; I given to the person who handol tho horses to tho store man. 8170. So that everything which came into your possession on accoiint of the PacilSc liailway, and remained in your custody for any len;:tl of time — even for a ehort time — would appear in j'our store book.'-] Yes. 8171. When shipments were made to parties at a distance, to whom would they be consigned ? — To my sub-agent out in the North- 1 West, on the Eat Portage, on the eastern line, generally speaking to the engineer in charge, Sometimes, however, it would bo t» the engi- neer who required the goods; but he would only get them by requisi- tion from his chief, the m^n in charge. 513 NIXCN niiid that ivpj)ly to the men also? — Yes, S17'.). And those employed by the (iovornmcnt ? — Vo.s ; but wo had ;iii exploratory' i)arfy in the Held. 8180. They got a money compensation instead of being .supplied iviih board ? — Yea. 8181. Anil they got the supplies the be.-t way they could without Wherevcnii<>y oining (o you or any other j.urveyor ? — It was su|>posed that I should had^^to frt-ittrit i.uivcy tolliem, but they asked the libert}- of purveying for themselves, goo's- .i;id I wa.s only too gla— Look •(!('<' |il 11)^. How inoni'v puid to and t'.v siib- agenis. No siibordlimtc^ officer t'ntni.->t< d With a credit at. the bank. In one cnse a sub- ordinate liHd a bank account, Inti in llie I'orni of a private account. Boa son why, nevertheless, he changed subor- dinate's account from one banlt to anothtr. jiccoijiits — for instance, at the year 187'> — when I camo to look ovoi ii,, books I found that account after accciint had not been closed iiiiibl thou'.;ht they ought to have been. 8188. Do you remember, its a matter of practice, whetlier your su- a<;ont8 had .sc)i:u-ate ticcounts in any btink here? — I tliink not. 8189. Did they give cheques? — No; 1 think tliey paid the iikjuv. r will explain : on going out on the survey, >^ny Mr. Lucas woiiiil requisition for $2, ()()() for the sub-agent thiit would go with him,iniil Mr. i\'uttan for $1,000 or $J,000, according as ho thought othci- thinN would bo required for the agent that would go with him. Tliat tnoin^ would be di-asvn out by chetiue and given to the sub-agent, and tlnv took it with them. I do not think they ever issued tiny cheques, \j]i- was theie anything plticed to their credit by me, 8'90. Was there any other suborditiato officer onti'ustod with a ci'.li. at the bank and given power to draw cheques ?— No. 810 !. Had you not an a>*sistant purveyor? — I had for a short lime, but he had no such authority — Mr. J, J Hell, lie was sent up by the Department. 8102. Do you remember whether he h" renu'iiilior whotlici" it liappoiicd thiti Valontino Cliristian, Iff in!, that lie had not lexioii'lL'ti :ill iho money which was a-Ucd tor liim by tho cngineiM". sjoi. '[\> whom wouhl that money go ?— To the Keceivor-General, tit lOilauM, not to the Assistant Receiver-! roneval liere. -202, ^\'^luld ho make a cIumjuo ])ayablo to the Rocciver-(rencrars Irelit'.' -No, to nil.'; and [ would make the cheque payable to the |i;.Hoivt>i'- tor iMnsidorable amounls'.'* — Certainly theie was; how could ihov close ihoir ai'counts it' they did not ? S.'Oo, I am asking you whetiier you remember that it did hajipen that Ithevc'lnsod their accounts by giving you cheques, payable to your order, 111' ton.sidei able amounts? — No; I do not think it. 1 do not ihiidv that hero were ever considerable amount-i in their hands Ij'ing over. 820fi. Do you think any of them ever had as much as 82,000 or IflooO lying over? — I do not think thei'e was ever so much money jiving over, except in one instance, and it might not have been $2,001), |l think that was Mr. Lucas's sub-agent. S207, Who was he? — I am not sure whether Chi-istian was his agent lor not, 1 think Christian was Rattan's sub-agent. 8208. Look at John Brown's account on page 107 of ledger A, and |f;iy how you settled the last balance? Read out the last entiy — Lnk account, $2,8(5 1 28," — that is an entirely different affair. 8200. What is that affair?— That is goods ho sold in the North-West, Ithat was not money sent to him and brought baek to me : those were Igontls that he sold — horses, cart>», waggons, and provisions — rather |th;in bring them baclv to Winnipeg. J210. How would that be, wouM that bo by a chenu.c ? You have lir.arked it, or Mr. Conklin has marked it by a cheque ; do you remember jtlie tiansaction ? — I do not remember, but I presume it would be by a jcheqiie. He would, perhaps, place it to my credit. I rather think he jpve 11 cheque to Mr. Conklin, or to me, the proceeds of which would le deposited with tho Receiver-General. S21I. Do you remenibei', at the time of Mr. Conklin giving up these jl'i'oks, of ascertaining that there was a considoi-able amount wrong in |i^ie balance in some waj- ? — No; I do not particularly remember. "^212. Do you not remember that something over $4,000 could not ji' accounted for, as hir as the booics were conceriicil ? — No ; I do not. 8213. r think it is so recorded in your book. It may have been — I |(1 niot mean that it was — misappiopiiated ; but I mean that tho books |-«'Miot8how what had become of it? — You will find receij)t8 nom the jl'epaninonf for all these moneys. The receipts are at the Canadian |lVitie Kailwav Office. m Pn,vnia«tiT- Htt«i-Pur- Vt'.VOI'Mllip — II«>uk-li<-«-|iiiig. I'r()li;il)lc' that V'iilcnlliH' ( lirls. thin si|u:ir*'il up liis accDiint liy uiviim lil> clifiiue. l.tu-as's suli iiijoiit n ronsldcriililc.' biiluiii't' oil luiinl. .loll ■>. nrowii's acc.viiit. Probably Hrrtwn gave f'lie(|ue lor $J,-<()1.28 to N'l.\on wlio would dc- nowlt It with till- Recclver-Oenera I Does not romem- ber tliat whon Conklin made np b«iokHl;-l,0(MH-OMl(l not be iic«!oiinted lor. NIXON 51t> PnyiiiiiMtt'i'- niid-Piir- v«'jorjilil|i— Jioi>k-k('<'|tiii^. Statcinciit 111 IcdKcr Unit 111 inks \V(»tllil l)uIl):i;iMcc — + 1,11m. .S,i bcill^' sliorl. Witness thinks liJK lu'connts at i.)tluwa would bo ritilitevcn tlioiii;!! Ills liook.s niiKlit !-ho\v iVHJtl sliorl. Jtem $2V) for Nixon's I'xpenses explained. Item ofhorso sold to Alloway lor ^'2-i S21 I. Ai present 1 am ti>ini!; to jiscortjiin wlietlior tlio .sysicm \v;i,;, siillicioiil ono to hhow the real state of atluirs? — Tlioio was a clieckn' C)ttaw:\ In can "^c I wi'iit tlown thcic oiico and foinid a man's arojin; tli;i4 •iii^lit Id have boon in niiiio, and it was not in niiiio. 821.'). I)o you moau Jolin Brown's ? — No, tlio account of .Idlni So;' kCn.; so that ihoy ltray in tho money lino. S21^^ L'jok at paije 42 of journal B, and roa I tlio fool iio'e'.., "Balance accoiint. l)i'. $l,4(jj.83; Note— This is an accounl o|iiii,.i with the al^Hjve Hm« in oidor to close tho books and ciedits in ij,,, led-;of, on 1st ot' May, lt'77." 8217. i)o I understand that } nu have soon Lliis note bel'ore ? — I lat; it for granted i have. 8218. Do 3'ou understand, therefore, that at tho windiiii( iij» ol' keo|. iiig ol accounts by ('onktin, tho books did not balanco within Ihh amount ? — I suppose to, according lo that. 8210. Have 3'ou ever erdeavoured yourself to ascertain why it i>ili;ii the books showed that discrepancy? — Xo ; 1 havo not. Mr. (Jnn,; may, though. You see there i.s a voucher tor every dollar I kwa e.x|ionilcd. We had no contingent account. 1 took out no moneys t"r a contingent account. 1 kept none, and novel' hud any. 8220. But you had an account for general expenses ? — Xo ; I liaj imt 8221. Had you not a general [account? — Xo; I had no (jontingeiu account. 8222. But you had what is called a general account ? — Yes. 8223. In which \-ou put all entries that were not to ho char^'od in particular accounts ? — Certainly ; but they were ])aid by otficial cIumjiu. The money did not come into my hands to bo paid out from my li^ii books; therefore my accounts at Of.tawa would be light, even lhoii;'i, my books rright show $4,000 sfiort, because my vouchors would ,'i down as against tho money.s which they had placed to my credit. 8224. Would it happen that you would sometimes p-ay expen.^cs luii draw sums against those expenses? — I do not remember that I did. 8225. I think in one instance I .see a cheque of $250 charged to ym and against that a credit of expenses to yourself? — Yes, that is viiik. that was for going to Ottawa; thai, was when I was suinmoneltii Ottawa before the Public Accounts Committee; ;.r' course there wa.^DO other way to get money but tbat, and I placed to credit of tho Receive! General, when I returned, the amount that u-as allowed mo, because ik' I Public Accounts Committee paid me, and the amount 1 took was more than was allowed me, and I placed the balance in tho hands of Keccivoi- General. That is how that is explained. 8226. On the 19th of June, 1875, I notice an entry in journal A, that] you received from W. A. Alloway: " cash, $25," for a horse that wassuU to him ; do you remember the transaction ? — No. 8227. There is a memorandum that the horse was severely kicked?- 1 No, I do not remember it; but I suppose tho horse was returned by a gUrveyor, perhaps between this and Portage la Prairie, and sentbai' 8228. I do not hnd any credit in the account that you kept with ihH bank of that $25. I mention it now in order that you may have an r.iT NIXON ' system \Vii>;i was il cliock ii; mun's aiciiiiiit of John S'li;' lta\v;i, so tlnMv font Il0'(.'.'_ ICC.UIUll (I|HM|..1 ci'Oilils ill lii, )ef<)ro '.■'— I lak.; ing II)) of ki('|. CO williin (hb n wliy it iMli;il >t. Ml'. Ciirre dollar I have no motleys i ■;■ -No; Iliad Hot 110 conliiigeiii -Yos. bo c'harj^'iiil '.n ' otTii'iiil elu'i|iU'. frota my ci;-ii- t, oveii lli'Mi^'ii U'liors would ,'1 my croilit. Y expenses am rtliat 1 did. jhargod to ym , that is rigbl. 18 sumraonc'lti j 80 there wa^no of the Eeceivor- mo, becaibe liio I took was mori'l nds of Kcceivi'i- journal A, that] The that was sok' erely kicked ?- ,a ret urn od byaj and sent bacli. 1 kept with the I u may have an I'liyiiinNtPi'- iiikI I'iii'- ,,,„„.tnMi'y of looking into it ? — I ciuiiiot lo(d\ into it for 1 havo not iiUH'-kTl-pi'Tir. lU^.dociirnor.ts. s22!l 1^"' ' ^^'i" t^i^'*' you the books, and yon can .>-oo whelhor it is iivliled? — Von will sec that Ihoro is a statement niadc^ to the bepart- iiniit ot lluit liorso J t Ih credited to Koceivor-tJenerul when ho .sent him. S'.'iiO. Then, on the 28r(l of June, 187'), 1 (in 1 a memorandum in your iiiiu uf -lu ->u ,,,iiinal : '• do|)OHite I to credit of paytna->tpi", in tho Mt(r(di mts' Hmk, v!i'i'.'.'a(-r!.iiii'i''.')i' >i2.5n;" W(nild that bo to yuiir ollicial account? — No; I do not think M-^'J". ]■ wiiiikl. 8231. Would it bo to youi- private account ? — \ s\ippose it would. That wDiilil jiroli ibly bo i'or some goo Is sold, and tho nioneys would not be loiMisiteii to ci'cdit of Receiver-' lenoral until we got the whole together ami beat it at the end of the month, oi- the he^'iiining of tho succeeling iiiiinlli; that is, when we got the 3'-") wo won I 1 not send it then. Wo made our returns monlhly to tho Receiver-' ionoral, of all moneys weived during the month. I a-prohend that that would he the way iliat was (lone ; 1 do not know what it was foi-. •"'IIVI. Then this last entiy of the deposit, would tint be a jjrivate :rai!siiction of your own? — I do not know that it wouM. '^■1']?,. 1)0 you thiid< it would bo to your ollicial account then ? — 1 had "'"' ii""(ii.i,,i 1,11 utlicial account. ^2:U. ('an you cxnlain this entry; " deposited to crcilit of I'aymaster n the Alerchanlri Baidc, Si)2.5 / ? " — It was ]>robably moneys whiidi ame into my bands belonging to the Canadian I'ucific Railway, an I it I was placed to my credit to be afterwards sent to Rocoivor-Gcnuiral. 8235. Do you know wbetber that would appear cluirgol to you in tho i'ludtic Jltiilway bo >ks ? — It should. I should be credited and Hliarf,'ed there — at least I ought to be credited and ch u-ged : "by amount to lioceiver-Gerieral." >2Hf). Tho books nt Ottawa, as far as we have been enabled to und«>i'- >ia:d tliem, do not show it ; but ])orhaps there is some oi-ror ? — \o: the Recoiver-Gonerars books would only show, I suppose, the cheque which I signed ; — it might be $400 or more. That would be embodied 111 that. I would send a detailed statement to tho Department, and not \ to the Receiver-General. 823'7. It is possible, that if you did not send tho amount which j'ou i received from ditl'erenl sources nntd after Juno, in 1875, it will appear I ill tho following year ?— I can got it for you it the papers are ])laccd in I my possession. I remombor sending it, and I will guarantee I will ] liiid it for you. 82i8, If you look at page 118 of ledger A, you will see that Yaiontirio Surmiso as to iiie ■nnistian's account was settled by some entry rofoindng to the I'aiik ^^hristiau's ''*^ i iinnsaetion ; can you explain it? — No; bank chenuos. I presume those nccount. wns I, , ' 1 • 1 1 ! 1 .1 1 ' 1 1 1 .Li squaruil up. were cheques which he is.sued to the men when probably thoy were I'eing discharged. 82dl). You menn paymenta by him to some one else? — Payments by him on the pay-list to men in the field. I apprehend that would be ithc way that was. It would be very expensive sometimes to bring men NIXON 518 Pnyinnater* nii«l>l*iir> vryorNlilp — AiliiilnUtrMtion Ilii'/ KiiKliioiT inmlp i'0()nlMilliiim for iiioiicyN tor par- I ioH on Hurvcys. rmtinoiM' iilwiivs «■ -rtiticil clulin or sub-aKt'iit. Kxccpiiou lo tliis nik'. IJrown Jippoiiited in, if ihoy Hiivd to wtay in tho Noi'lli-NVost, and that would Ijo lakci fioru tlic puy-listw. 82 40. Who would iniiUo roquif-, moving ^upplies from |i in- to ])oint as Iho engineer would direct him ; and that wjuld be dn, unler requisition from the engineer. 8214. Well, when he camo into your office to settle for the advantv which had been made to him, and would bring in accounts of tli(i..' expenses, would you always require his claim to be ccrti' 'bvtln' engineer before you gave him credit for it? — Yes; the eng lor;;' Hod to the claim. 8245. 8 ) that for all those items of credits in the case oi'a piirsoiii \'aientino Christian's position, you would have a certificate t'lomiLtj engineer, or some one on the spot ? — Yes ; the engineer vvas inslruclo; by liis printed or written instructions, to do that. Of courso, in JuL, Brown's instance, ho would not bo able to tell the goods Brown sold, Ijocauso Brown was in the North- West for a 3'ear, or a year and ahali under instructions from me to dispose of property there; for instaiin ho had a lot of mules which we got over from British Lolumbia, aiii horses and other material. 824n. Did he got any from Moberly's party ? — No; I think not. I think- it was some old stores of Henry McLeod's, some of which weiv cached in the North- West before I came horo at all, and some were a' Henry Mouse or Jasper House, I do not remember which. I think lit] sold to Barnard, of British Columbia, for $1,000, a lai-go (luantity nf supplies that had been there 1 do not know how long. 8247. Did ycu appoint Brown a sub-agent, or was he ai)[H)intoil a; Ottawa ? — 1 appointed him. 824^^. Wore you satisfied with his conduct? — [ was, always He I was Mr. Fleming's sub-agont before I had anything to do with tli-; j (lovernment at all — his right-hand man; ho was not a sub-ajjini, because that name was not known then in the service. 519 KIRKPATRICK WiNNii'Ed, Tiiesduy, 28Ui Soptfinbcr, 1^80. \V\i W. KiiiKi'ATiiKK, HW'ovn Olid cx-imint'd : By the Chainnan : — h2l!K Whore do you live? — At Oilcrsiin i, ctjnlract 15, Canadian Pacitic Railway. S250. llavo you been oiigagod on any work coiinoctod with the I'acilic ll;iihvuy ? -Yott. 8251. Wlien were you fii'st connected with it ? — From tlio time the lirst parties wore t'Oiit into the woodr* in 1871. S252. By whom wei-o you eni^a,ged?— My ihe Public Works Deparl- ,ii,,iit_by the Engineer-in-Cliief. >^253. Wore you notified in writing? — Yes. '254. What was your first duty ? — Transit man. s255. To which ptrty? — Division (i, untlor Mr. II. N. Armstrong. :;25ii. I" what h)cality? — On Lake Superior; to the north of Lake ,>ii|)uiior on Pic l{iver, i-unning oast and west. -'257. Can you describe the termini of that exploration "^ — At the XaiTOWrtof Long L:ike on the westsiilo, was the western terminus; and i.n liio eastern it was either the White or Black Kiver, I forget which, but 1 think it was Black River. ^258. Was that a point further oast than Pic Kivor? — Yes. s259. Then you crossed Pic lliver? — We cro.ssod the Pic River. S2(J'). About what was the length of that exploration in mile.- ';* — About ninety or 100 miios, I should think. S2C1. Ilow long wore you engaged on that work? — I think it was lin.kine that we went up there; 1 left the party shortly before Christ- 1 mas. S2C2. What wa.s the size of the party? — It must have numbered I nil ml forty men — peihaps forty-five. ^2G3. How were you pi'ovided with supplies ? — By a corar.iissariat. Fxiilorntor}' M|i' »■«•)-« — i>nrt> <;. ('i)limiliil will) ( 'iinailiaii I'liclHo Hiillwiiy sliici' ISTl. Traiisil mini tn l)lv1slon <; niKitip Ariiistroii({. LfH'ullty: Lak« SiiiKTlor ; tiTiiiliil or»'.\p1i>ratl<)ii : l>nng Lake iirxi Hinall Hlaok Rivrr. Size of party ; about forty -II va men. 82t)4. Had you a commissariat officer attached to your party?— Niipiiii<>!i. IThcTo was one, not a regular commissariat officer. There was one at Itlie mouth of the Pic Rivor. Yes, I may say there was, because we Iwei'o the only party up there, and he was attached to our party. ^2G5. But he was not always with the party '.' — He was not always |v;iih the party. s2(J6. From what point on this exploration did you start? — About Itwi'iily-lhreo miles up the Pic River. S-fiT. But in which direction did you work at fir^t? — West to Long Hake. 8208. Then was Pic the base of your supplies? — \''oc : the Hudson Bay post at the mouth of the Pic was the base of our supp'ies. 8269. Were you supplied with enough provisions and ether articles fipon the starting of that exploration ? — Yes. started about twenty-throe miles up the Plo Klver and worked west to Lomj I..tika '«, \ of KIRKPATRICK 520 it. iP' Eiploratory Survey** - Pnrty <.. NupplieM. 8270. Thofo w.is no (lefcct in your Jirrant,n>moiits? — Xol in t; Slmrt. of siipplk's liv(|iiiM'ill.v ; IvllSOIl till- cDiiunlssariiit ofHcrr (1!(1 not nndi'i'stainl liis busiin'ss. Btartlllg. 8271. Was tluTo {il'toi'wanls? — Wo wore Avn't of pvovi.-^iois vo, frequently. 8272. Wliy was that? — Owing to tlio clitlijiilty of triin.-;j)o:-liiiir i; tlie end of the lino. 8273. Do you mean that it took a longer time than was anti('i[i;i;. to got your supplies from the Pic to the point t'equired ? —No ; 1 nitli thinU that the commissariat dfUfor did not undorhtand the liiisiric-v getting the supplies in, and in eiigaging Indians. 8274. Was there any Lomplaint on that account to the connnissMiJ officer?- Yl'S] we certainly complained, 8275. Vrould it be you duty to communicate the comjdainL?— ! v, not in charge of the ]) irty. 827'j, Wliosc duty would it be? — H. N. Arm.-;irong's. Comiiiissa ,'iiit ott'ciT |Moinis('(l 1o sii|i|)l,y tlic'in bcttiM- iii I'll I lire. Transi>iirtc(l siippn«'s Willi tlirt'i; Iiuliuns. 82(7. Do you know whether any ex)»IanaU )ns were rccoiw-ij li);;; the commisL-ariat olHcor while these de'ective arrangements o.xistei' — Yes; I thiidc he wrote once anlies upon ihe work of tiie party ? 1 mean, a\ ere they hi:!dcroid you secure the supplies upon that occasion ? — I diil. 8288. From \\hat point ?— From the llixdson ]Jay post at the 1 o; end of Long Lake. 8284. Unw i\u- was ihat fro It mu-t Itive been 12n miles. n where the ]):ii'ly tl.'ti wti-* ;il work '- 82.'5 J);!l you tiike men oi" the jiarly with you? — I ilid. S28(! How many ? — Thi-ee or four Indians. 8287. Anl wiM'o the jirovi-ions transported by the pariy wore carried from the south end of Lonir Lake on our hacks. '!-Tm] 8288. If these men had not i»een detaclied f-'om the jtarly, wlu' woi'k would they have j)erformed with the pai ty ?— They wero tin reguliir packers. They vvou'd have been sent back to Pic for sii[)i' V28!>. So that they were performing' the duty for which they engaged, wliether they were with j'on or whether they retumcil )l:ev WW I to iIh' » 521 KIRKPATRIOK commissi 'v;i-> lit won; Kx]>K>ratory Survo.VM — r);^.'?__Ycs ; we h:ul a number of Indians in camp, far niovinf' camp ''»••>•««• a„d racking supplies. '*"••»"•- 8201). Then the W()rk ])roper siill'orcd, il'fit all, only by your itidivi- ,liial abf^once ? — Tliat was all. S2il. IIo'V lonii; wore you ab-ient on tlial. occasion ? — Not more than -^ «*'•>'< !ii'S"nt III '^ I ' 1 .1 . 1 i i II- ''"■ supplies ;i week. 1 do not know wnoUnir the I'ai'ty were at work uurip^' my i.lnenc'e or not. 8:"J2. Could you not tell when you retni'iied whether thc^' had been iU Avu'k or not ? — 1 ihitdi Ihoy hud done a little, perhaps a mile or two mil OS. S2I';{. l!o yon tliink the work of the ]^a.^•^y snlTered in consequence of your absence, more than with your iiuiividual ])i'esence, wiihnut sii|i|i!ies ? — They had no prov'iaiotis to live on. They lived on blue- U'lTics during my absence. S.'04. Then am [to understand that, the work was not proceeded Wdik .i-ui pm- wilh ii> etleclively as It W(ndd have been if they had been l»i<>pCM'ly l;;;;^;'; j;;';'/;^^^^^^^^^ •.iijipliul ?— Decidedly n(;t, S21I5. At the starring of the expedition, was it contemplated th;it voii might have to g) to this ])')int for provisions as well as to l*ic Kiver''' — II' 1 rememUjr correctly, Mi'. Armstrong ha 1 instiucted the (iiiiinii>-sariai oflieer to send supplies around by the travelled route to the lIiKbon Hay jiost, lo tin; north end of Long Lake, then down to the -Miiili ciul of Long Lake and tiiere to make a cache. 82n(i, Then v\as it a |/art of the arrangements at the beginning, that I'lc nri-iuiff.dfiiav there was to be a cache at Jiong Lake, where you would find ^''t' ,V,i;;|',','. "',"l!.'ii"' '' >i|)iilie>? — It was. l/.ke. 82i)7. Then your going therefor f^upplies was not contrary to the oii;^iiuil arrai.;vement ? — Xo, not to the s')uth end of Long L:<''><'i<^ lor suppUijs. the cache on the Pic River. The romniissariat oflu'ei- may have l»een unnblo to piocuro packers at tlie Pic. Of course I do not know how that was; he may have been unable to get them. 8303. Would the absence of tliose axo men wlio would !e sent back Woi-k iicinvi d n. for supplies aO'ect the progress oi the work ? -Ve.s. coi,se.,nen.M-. KIRKPATRIOK 522 mm: Exploratory SurveyN— Party O. Snpplles. All the axf.' men of the parly away. <, iiie cache lost throiiKli wooit.s laklng liii'. Tit^fi. this work ju IX'ct'inher. Track Survey. .Mak<'8 a track- Mirvi'y around north end ol Long Lttko. 8304. Delay it very much, or only very little? — It dopendoii upu,, the number who would be aent oft'. I think we had six or eight axo men altogether. 8305. Altogether ?— The regular a.Ko men of the parly who.so duty jt was to work on the line, and when they were a\v£.y of course no wni!; could be done. 8306. When they were all away, do you mean ?— Yes. SSOt. And were they all away at one time getting MippHes?— [ think so; I think they were away once or twice, if not more. 8308. Would they be accompanied by the packers or Indians?— B\- ail the men that could be spared in the camp. 8309. Why send so large a party to get in more supplies ?—Tiii road was so very rough, a man could not cany more than tifiy or sixu- |jounds on his back. 8U0. Did that absence of proper supply happen only seldom n; frc'iuentiy during this particuhir work ? — I think it was froqueiulv on thiit lino. 1 may here state that wo hud the misfojtune to lose our cache at the mouth of the Pic — not at the mouth of the Pic, but at ihc crossing of the Pic, whore we started our line. Eveiytliing was hiiiiii by the woods gelling on tire; and that delayed us some time. 8311. Was the loss of that tiupplj' by tire, the occasion, in yuii! opinion, of the defect in the arrangement afterwards for 8ui)pl3' nituh ' — It might ])artially, for a short lime, until other supplies carao in. 8312. After that was made up, did the defective arrangements cu:- tinue ? — Yes. 8313. Where is Armstrong now? — I could not tell; I have novir heard of him since the fullowing year. 8.114. That is not the Armstrong who was doing work on section 14 n' 15? — No, be was an American, 1 think; or he may have been a Caim dian ; but be came from the United States, 8315. Do you remember who was commissariat officer at the mninh of ibe Pic? — I do not; there weic tsvo of ihem at first, but who tlitv were I cannot remember. If i heard their names I would, jierliaii-, remember. 831(). You say you left that work about December? — About Novci^.- ber or December ; the latter end of November, or the begintun;; ot December. It was shortly before Christmas ; it might have been two or three weeks. 8317. Then where did j'ou go ? - I proceeded to make a track suitov, according to instructions received from Mr. Kowan, around the noriii end of Long Lake. 8318. IIow was that suivey made? — A rough survey, by takin.' bearings with the compass and by pacing — counting the paces — )r othei- wise, judging the distances as rapidly as possible — merely passing' through the country and taking notice of the character of the countn. 8319. How wore the heights taken ? — No levels were ascertained. b320. Was a barometer carried ? — I had a barometer, but I tot'K no levels from it because I hud nothing to check from, and il wa.s noi consideied necessary. 523 KIRKPATRICK rse no wuik Exploratory Survey!*— Party G. S;{21. That would l»e called a bare exploration, I suppose ? — Yes. Ajjtire expiora- 8322. How long were you engaged on that work ? — I think I arrived Arrives at Rei ;it Kcd JJock at the mouth of the Nipigon River at the end of Kehruury Nipi^'o™"Kiver.' (,!• the beginning of March . enu of Februury. 8323. What was the size of your party on that occas«iDn ?— About si/.eof party : un, eit,'lit or ten men. 8324. You had charge of the party ? — I h.ad charge. 8325. Upon that occasion, did you say you started upon the height of laml, or aboil', ♦he height of land? — Yes; about the height of land, near the north end of Long Lake. 8326. What was your arrangement about supplies on that occa.sion? —1 took certain supplies with me ; but forwarded, previous to starting, three Indiuns^with toboggans, loaded with supplies to be cached at the Long L:ike House — at the Hudson Bay ])ost in Long Luke. 1 took vupplios with me from the mouth of the Pic to do me until 1 got there. 8327. Was that arrangement suttifient to cany you through with >!ipi)lie8 until you tinL-shed the work? — It was. 8328. A\'hat was your next work on the Pacific Railway ?— I reuinicd ;.j Ottawa, and on the 1st July, returned to the Ni})igou country again. Arraiifjcnieiits lor siiiipllt'j,. 8321). That would be July of 1872 ?— Yes ; July of 187. '. 8.J30. In what capacity did you return ? — In charge of a party. boil. Do you remember the number or name of it ? — I think it wa> L. 8332. What was the size of that party ?— About thirty or thirty-five. 8333. Fi'om what point did you start work? — From thirty miles from iLu north-west corner of Lake iS'ipigon. ruHy I^. Heturiu'd lo OttllWU. .liily.lXTJ, In Nlpi- \iou coiliil ry iigaiii. ^\/.r aity I.. SiiiiplifN. F.'iiliir'' ill brinj;- iiifi 111 siipidu's rapltUy enough. Work less elU'c- f ive ill cnnsequ- f ni-(> ol failiiri.' in K applies. Work finisliod on Christmas lunrnliiK- Cliiirnoter ol' work : prciiniin- iiry siiivoy with Iruns^il ami level. liCtfi'fs of parties sometimes wronK ■•"H43. So ari'uni^ement-i hiid Inu-n niado for ti'iin.sporting provisi.)ti, iVom the point which yoii htivo irulicated, to the liitlefcnt iMii)U(,| your work? — Tlie commissaritit oflicor I had with mo was snp|iose.i > hiivo them packed in, or to ^ot them in by some means. If wo caiii. across hike.s they were supposed to bring them in iiy (■•moes. 8841. Then was thei-e a commissar'at ofRr-er attached to, or ae(,,in ]iiin\'in>.- your parly ? — Yes, twooftliem; a man by the na'ue of Co!i. an i McL>.)n.ild — Dancan McDonald, 1 think. 8815. Was their husinesd to procure moans of iransj* irt from ii/ startirio- ])oint, or this.place near (he startini^ point, to difVcroiit poi: u on the line of woik where su[))tlic8 would be required? — Yes. S84(). Did they fail to accomplish tliat ? — Xo ; I cannot say llml lli^v failed, but the supplies M'ore not bii)U!^ht in as rapidly as ihoy .sliou:! have been. They did not altogether lail. 884". \Va.s the work performed satisfactorily by ihem ? — 1 do i.ni think it was. Xot to my satisiaction. 884S. Did you mako a comjilaint upon this subject? — \ certaiiih- reported it. 884lt. To whom? — To the Assistant Engineor-in-Chief— at that tiin Mr. liowiin. 8350. Where was he stationed ? — He was not stationed at any parti ciilar place as fur uti 1 can remember; he was supposed to be all w<>]\ 1 think. 8851. Had he no headquarters?— I think not; he had no iioiii- quarters that J am aware of. S352. Do you know whether he received your complaint? — I cannot f'-'S53. Did your complaint result in any improvement or in ain change? — Xo; it did not, because he maj' not have received it lur months afterwards. Communication was very hard to nude tollowinii; spnnii; otmwH. ;i,i(| ran a line from the nortli end ot Lake IJeien, towards tlio n^irth ']'iV/'.'',!,';,'J[ Ji^;'!j'',','" ,11(1 i)i Loritf Lake. "<■ '-iiio' iii-'i.'i. u> ^ ^ nnrlli cl Loiii; s;;()l. That would he in the general direction of j-oiir exploration in i-''^^'. ihc winter of 1871-7- ?— Yes. 8302. Ahout how long was tint work — I racaii in di--lance ?— Ahoiit \v.,ru .ioni> sixty >ixiy miles (d' the line I ran. I think it was sonittiiing nearly IdU miii's in longiii. miles; but we never completed it. h^tJ^. Whfit kind of examination was tliat ? — An in.Ktrumontal ^I'l"- p,.,,|i,nii>.irv vi'V— ti jtreliminary survey. survey. s3t)4. Had there heen any exploration of that pai-ticular line hefore iho instrumental tiirvey, as far as you know '/ — None but mine, liial I Mil aware of. >3(i5. What distance was that from your own ? — [ erossed it with my !i;ick survey various times; but it was along in the general direct ioii, l! may have been run very fur, though. 83ii(}. Then it was to some extent for the purpose of contii'ming voui- oi-jpi-i : to. ■(>!)- |,;ovious work ?-Yes. ' jl;::^^.,:^^?;;;. 83'J7. Were you in charge of the party ? — I was. mb. What was the M/.e of the party ?— About thirty or thirty-five. f*i«7>f P'oty: ■,'ii)lt. What was your arrangement for supplies that soa^on ? — They snppiius. viie brought in by the commissariat from llel liock. s.nO. Was Red Kock the base? — It was the base of supplies. S371. Hud you a commissariat officer going with your party, it iiccoinpanying it? — Yes .S'372. Do you remember who it was ? — I do not. 8i73. Were the 8up])lies brought in to your satisfaction during tho ['I'Ogrcss of that work ? — Yes. 8374. At what time did you end that ■ -^oik ? — Late in the fall, in iime to get out by tho steamers. 837'). Bid you go to Ottawa?— I did. •'^37(). I'pon etich of these occasions, upon your going to Ottawa, . I!'. ArrantrrmonI fo piircliaso (he sup- plies made wllli HuUierlaiid. (ifioils tiiUcn ovoi' wow srhi'dulotl ami prict'd. fr.l.;{f. toorodlt of Government. AsMimerl aceountP. 83F0, Were they actu;il!y dolivorod at tliut time? — Tlioy wer.j .i,. livorod at tliut time. 8.-581. Was a scliodtilo maile out y — Yes; and regularly invoicc. 8307. You were willing to lake their statement without lookin!kh transp trtation ?— Yes ; an arrangement was made with Capt. JWylie. JIo was the party who tixod tho freight, and ho was to carry for Ij'cts. a hundred, for other por.sons, and for tho Government. 1-412. Thus tho real understanding was that you paid tlio same rate [a«was charged to other persons ? — Yes. S413. I>id you, at any time, have any goods transported, for which Itiiiglit was not charged to you ? — I had not. 84U. Were all dealings with you about such matters upon the same [km as with strangers ? — Y'es, 8H.V Had you no advantage from dealing with any of tho officers Ic: ilie Ciovernment ? — No. 841G. Whoso wi'iting is this in tho journal ?— It is mine. S417. What is your next item? — My next item is $1,850. 841 S. What is that for ? — For provisions loaned to me by the |Iieiiaitnioiit. ^41!K Was that a quantity loaned at thut partic.ai- time, or was it llio !igi,'regate of many loans? — It was a regu'v invoice rendered to bieliy tho Department of stores loaned to me !ip to that date at differ- Isiit times. ^4'JO. It was not a loan on that particular occasion? — No. U'l\. Do you know for what period this system of loans had been loin;,' Oil? -You mij;ht say it was during the whole time I was there — ciins backwards and forwards. ?42-'. Then these were loans between tho time you commenced to bvo a stoie of your own and the entry of that item ? — Yes. S423. What date is that entry ?— May 31, 1878. n24. So that that w^)uld be the amount of the loans during tho ei'iod of about eleven months? — Yes. 1^425, From time to time, as those loans occurred, was any record ipiof thoni in j-our books?— Coming in ? ■.«>«• k— Nll|>|lllfM, Accniiats. rtcm $r,MM for t riinsnortlnsi siip[)lies. Al\VJ\ys pnid I'rolKlil on srooti*: ciirrled lor him. $1,s5n for provl- BJons lent witness. DurltiR wluile period a system of mutual loan existed. WILSON 528 Foi-t Fi-ai>('<-M Iiorli— Nii|i|iliei4> AcfuiiiilM. Ifoin of loans Jippear.-i ii.su lump tsiun. »1C2 4Jcrpdlte(! to Govi'rninent for trausportatloii. Hl2 ;. Yes ?— I think lliore \vi\:>; I kopt a mornoruiitlum of tliem. S4-7. Whoro would tlisit, bo ? — In lui uccoiint of a potty-hodk 1,1,1 I of course oxptctod Uio (Jovornmoiit siore-cloik to keep a slr;(i^r|,i at'L'otnil of it. Si2H. Did you coinpato tlio ^taterncnt. fuiiiiMhod at tlio liim.' il,;,; this ngi^i'o,!j;iilo was given, with the Htateinont which appealed in v ,i||. bot)k about tho.so loans? — 1 think I did. 8421). Do you remember ? — I do not remember. H4H0. You think so because it would bo likely, but you do not leiiKi:. bor the cii'cum.stanco ? — No. • 8431. Who kept that statement on the part of the Governineni .'- The Government clerk. 8432. Wiio was he ? — Mr. L. R. Bontlcy would be the party lU tlm time, and Mr Loij;an, I suppo.-e. Mr. Logan was the store- keeper, ;ii..l Jientley was his a.-uistant. 8433. You are aware, I suppose, that there were rumours that voii Iia4 some advantage la the obtaining oi those loans ? — Yes ; 1 am aViiv.i it. 8434. Have you that statement now of the itom which you have c:v- dited ? — 1 have not; it was furnished to me by the Department. Iwiil just t-tate that I came very near not having anything. When 1 lift Rn: Francos I, had no way of getting out ] had my own dunnage, and hai to bring out my stuff in that way; airi I had decided at one lime ii throw away all my books and papers, as 1 had no further use for them. but on second thought I picked up my books, and some of my aeco'iiit> with Tuy creditors, and brought them along, in order that if anytliii ,' arose I might bo in a j)osition to look at all of them, I \v\>]w.[ them at the bottom of the lake many a time. 8435. Then you have no record of that statement of loan.s?— ^^); i have not ; 1 have looked for it. I thought I had them, but I tind I li.iw not. 843(J. The item is in a lump sum as it appears in your books ?—Vo. j 843 r. l)id I understand you correctly, on a previous occasion, to say | that you had never disposeil of any live caltle which had at any tinu' been the property of the (iovornmont? — Yes. I will give you a >i:tk- mcnt of that after a time, if opportunity is allowed me. 8438. What is the next item?— The next item is $5 which shouli not appear here. It is a mere cross-entry to correct a previous emr in my business. I think it was some cotton that was got out of iL' store, and should have been charged to Thompson, the foreman, in.steal of to the Department. 8439. What is the next item?— The next item is $162. 12. 8440. What is that for ?— For tran.sporting supplies from Barriej station, on the Dawson route, to Fort Frances. 8441. By what moans of transportation ? — ay the Governraont lu.'.j 8442. Ts the price the regular price charg'ed to sirangers ?— I Jo noil think at that time there was any freighting doYie for strangers at all. 5J0 WILSON o not reiiK'in verniiicni ' t I tiiid I li.iv: Fort Frniiccii •.iick- >.y;;. Is it a iUii- price ? — It is a f'iiir prico. The \\'i\y il was Jii-rivod >*"i»i»"«". ;a \v;is liy c'luii<;iiig tlie tiino of the inoii and OKponso and making up ^'^^■'*""**- ihofroiglit in tlmt way. It was niado by Tliomp-jon, Iho forcMuanoi Iho i'(i the transportation of 23,402 lbs. of freight from tho North- \\'o>t Anglo to Fort France^, at 75 els., making a total of $^1^8.01), less ;iii account of Capt. Wylie's of $3G..')o. !-.4')2. Why did you deduct Capt. Wylie's account fi-om tlio credit (if ilio (jovernmont ? — Tho (Government owed Ca|ii. Wylie .it that lime, and I was coming away from Fort Frances at tho time .^nd could not see Capt. Wylie, and 1 just turned the account ovc-r to tho JJepari- mont. '^f;V!. Was that consented to b3'Mr. Sutherland, or any one on behalf oi'tlic (iovernment ? — Yes; by the foreman. >4r)4. Were these prices for transportation the usual prices allowed r the same work ? — They wore tho same as other pai'tics were getting done lor. loi' il .*'2-J.2ii for supplies lent. .?l,2!m.l7clieqnt> ;45.'). What is your next item ?— $22.2ti. 8456. For what? — F''or supplies loaned mo. It is a small account the (jovcrnment had against n^e for supplies before 1 left there. S457. The next item and the last is $1,296.17; what is that for?— ...,., Tliut is a cheque received by me from the Department at Ottawa to to'imiani-c'^'^'"*'"'^ balance my account, and is the only sum I ever received from the account. Ik'partmeut. 84o8. What items have you on tho debit side of this account ? — For Mipplies furnished tlio Department. 845'. What is tho total amountof your charges against tho Govern- amou'iitot"' mcnt during the period that you were interested in the store on your ^''arges aRiiinst i i • 1 r 1 .1 •' *r. ».-r> #kii "^ Qoveriimeni own account, at the Locks / — $8,778.92. mauo by witness MT^i lip Icof^Dt ri" 8460. For what is the bulk of these charges ? — It is for, I suppose, store at the ixTcks. supplies. 34 WILSON 530 Fort FraiicCM Nli|>|ill<*i<. '^I'ltruss's system t>f h()(il?-kt»'|ilii!.'. All snods pnssed tliroutili somo ag«'nt (if I lie Ooveriuneiit, T>io.i trom mo — hutter, sugar, and tliirii^s of that kind. 84(!2. Were the.-o articles fu; iiished to the (rovornment piinciimliy at one transaction, or, from time lo time, in many transactions ? — I'l ,iu time to time, as they rofjiiired them. ■^403. And at what titno would you make tho entries of tlics^ ai'lidos? — At the time that they took place. S4H4. Did you keep a day-book or a blotter ?— -I kept a journal. 84(!5. Was tiiat the first book in which entries wore made ?— -I hmi a jietty b<>ok. but as 1 had to attend to all the business my.self, 1 c^iili not enior it up in my rci^ulur books except at night. 84<5d. Rut from what would yon get the items to make the eiilii,> at night? — From what they call the blotter. S4»57. Did you find, either in your journal or your blotter, foui-ja. lions for every entry which you have in your ledger? — I did. 84fi8. And the entries which now appear in the lodger, arc all the results of tbe>e items, whicli are first of all charged by you either in your journal or in your blotter ?-— Yes. 84tj0. Would these goods for which you have charged the Govern- ment be furnished directly from you to the iigont of the Governinont or would the'}-, sometimes, be furnibhed to other individuals?— They would be 'urnished l>y me directly. The only party that would sret them w-ald be the foremin or the store-keeper. S4Tu. The.sc were not furnished to the labourers for the CJovcni- ment ? — No; they would n(>t accept a transaction of that kind at :ill, 8471. And all this merchandize, you say, ])assed through Njrno agent of the Ciovernment — either the clerk, or the store koepei', or tin' foreman of the works ? — It could not be done in any other way. It would not be allowed. 8472. Have you the blotter? — I have not. I thought I had, Init I cannot tii.d it. It was in the house last winter. 8473. Did you keep your books by single entry ? -By double entry. 3474. Did you transfer the items from your blotter into your jour- nal before they were posted ? — Most of them I did, unless I was much hurried. 8475. Would you sometimes post direct from your blrtter to your ledger? — No; never. 8476. Then all entries must first have gone into .-ome intermediate book? — Yes; into the journal. 8477. Then are there entries in your journal for every item which appears in the ledger? — Yes; there are entries in the journal for every item that appeal's in the ledger. 8478. These items which are charged to the Government under the name of merchandize would probably have a corresponding entry to the cifdit of the meichandize account? — They would in lump sum for the whole number of the accounts at the end of the month. It would not be for that single entry. 'j.']! WIL30N iloublo eiury. Pnrt Prnncct l.iM'k— Wii|>|illrM. 48(). Ploaso look a( pai,'o 84 of your journal, and way wliotlior the"'"'*"'''""' ,;iiticiil:ir.s ( f thi« amount of $;{51.t50 arc oritered tliore? — They arc. SiSl. On the 30tli of .Iiino. 1878, you appear to have charged an item :i,iiii.8i noMctuiw ,1 <.>,-l iO.Sl lo tlio (government; uro you able to b.how the tlclails of hut cliiu>,'o now ? — I am not. ^\^'l. Why not ? — i'{ocau>o it is not entered in detail. The details uiie tin iiislied to the Dejiartmcnt. S48;], Voui" jnurnal entry from which this was made show.- three Frxplanai inns re- items, one ot whieh is §'{,l()5.5.") : is that the transaction of which you |.",'i'tlv^". '''''"' jiio not able lo give the dotads now ? — Yos. >iS+, How do you say that amount was arrived at ? — It was catered ,1 my blotter and invoices furrnshod to the Department. •"i^b. Do you renuMober what it was composed of? — Supplies. ^4S6. Of what sorts ?— Of all kinds. '487. That would piobably bo the supplies for one m< nth ? — No ; niiter than that. J may state that at first I did not think it would bo neecftsary to enter all this in the regular books, because it would be tntercd in tliG Depai'tmental books — these loan transactions; but 1 was iiitormcd by Mr. Sutherland, or the book keeper, that it Avould be riecossiiry, therefore I had to make the entry in my books to corre8p<)nd with theirs. ?4S8. Do you mean that they had entries of the same items, amount- ing to this 33,105.55, in their books? — Yes. S480. And yon made yours to correspond with theirs ? — With the aicount 1 had I'endered them. ."i4P0. Do you mean, that at first you did not keep this in your books aiall?— I kept it always in my books ; that is, I did not enter it U]) in my journals at regular times ; that is, in this way, 1 did not enter tiie ii'iailcd items in the journal. ■^491. Was this item imiorstand ? — Yes; it "ipplies. 8402. Are we to understand that this charge of ?3, 165.55 is not for ;''io(ls delivered after the time of your last previous entry against the niovernnient ?— 1 could not say just exactly during wlmt time that was I delivered. 8403. Are wo lo understand that at some time you made up an entry Fnrtiicr exptana- eomposed of goods that had been furaished tor a long time previous? *"'""• -ll might have been furnished for a couple of months or so, or perhaps I ninrc. 8494. And that during those two months you had made other entries la^iiinst the Government, but hail not carried up those entries ? — Yes; jtor instance, I tried as far as possible to keep the;e, what we call dry Ig'Wls and such things as that, a separate entry from the loan account. jliiid that for the purpose of being able to see what would have to pass principally for gootJs loaned to them, as you PriiKipaiv, would be principally for goods loaned to them — t u;,;,,, you say wort^ loaned and not sold out-and out, at what prices woiilj you cliai^^o them ? — If 1 romonihor corroctly, I think tho tiist iii'('()iii' was londoroJ apiinst nio hy tho Dopartinont for Mij»plios loaned lo n,,. and in return I would chaij^o iust tho !»arno prico as thoy ehaiiidl n,,. whatovor it was, for an}- i)ailieular article. Thoy cdiuiged iiie hi:;]; than 1 was in tho hahit of selling myself in (-ovoral cases, and, of cum-. when I was roturniiiff 1 would charj^o them at the same jtricos; y theio aro things 1 wo;;ld tdiargo my regular retail prices lor, ainl generally lower tlian wore charged hy the bepartment. 8407. Do you know what was tho result of this intorcluuigc ofroodv was the balance in your favour or against you? -No; i think that tli. sum i)aid mo would ho pritUMpally for other gotjJs outside of lliohii|ip!;. altogether, such us furnishings. 8498. Then do j'ou say that on the loan account by itself the halaiH ■ wa^ not in your favour? — 1 think it was about oven. It was iiitei I Ih it whatovor was bori-owed should bo roturnoil. Sometimes ilicy coiiii not return tho same articles, and sometimes J could not return thusan,, articles, but it was allowed on something else, 8499. In giving tho Govornmont credit I think you meiitionoil ii item as a loan account? — Yes. 8500. Is that because the details of that item wore obtained iVom iIil] Government by way of loan ?— Ye^. 8501. Have you a sitnilar cntiy on your side, that is, a loan iiccoiini as distinguished from a sales account ? — Xt) ; I looked upon the jjimvi- .sions as generally a loan account. 8502. Does your charge against them for goods which yon ai iir< I intended to be loaned include anything more than provisions?— Uniyj ))rovi8ions. 850.J. Then do you think that this item of $3, ir)5.55 is pri noi pally I'irj provisions? — Principally for p/ovisions. I think it is all. I s1iou1(1mi.| that it is all provisions. 8504. Did you keep in your lodger a separate account for niorchaml zj account ? — Yes. 8505. Did these transactions with tho (rovernment result in a lar;.'ej credit to that account in your opinion? — It would to the amouiuottLej creiit of whatever was given out to them — both debit and credit. 8506. But I mean balancing in the account between the price.s yoal paid for goods and the prices at which the Government bought theniif have you any means of ascertaining from your own book whctherj those transactions with the Government resulted in a large credit t your merchandize account ? — It should not, because the prices weietbal same from both parties. The prices that they would charge me loij loan account would be precisely the same as my charges against themj 8507. Do you say that this item of 63,165.55 is for items which ari uot included in other charges made by you against the GovernmeDt!| 533 WILSON or morchaiKl:?.;! _[t is n<>' iiu'liidcd in :iny otlii'i' clrti^'os a^aiiis* llio (iovcrmiu'iit. It «-,,iilil not l»e tlioro if k), 1 am |i')-ilivo it was not. .')ll'. I).>ynu lli')\vii>i^ llio details <>t tliat ciilry? — i tliiidc tlio I)i)[)artniotit luiHt i:.vi!il. ><,10!i. f>id you wind up your liu.sjncss at tlio Locks lie((»i'(.\\ ou rcmovt'd ?— ^'os. '•,')10. I)i8i)jsiiig ot all your goods ? — Yes. •,')11. Did you credit your morchundi/o acconnl with tho prococ^ls „i tlic tiiial sale of goods? — I did. \2. Had the (lovoruniont any part in that transaction ?— The iMivorntncnt had no part in it. n')1;!. How long were you in husinoss at the Locks? — It would h-) iViMii iibouL tfie isiof.fuly, when 1 gotopjiied up in KST7, and I left there ;ii ilio beginning of August, 18ii8. '•i5l4. About thirteen months altogether ? — Yes. \\l'). When you started, did you got much stock from othoi* sources loicloij what you bought from the Govorniiiont ? — 1 did a largo amount. i,il5A. Have you any objection to 8ay — F nni not sure that we arc :;lt()f,'othor cmpowei-ed to ask you this — about how much you had iivo^tcd upon the whole there? — [ do not know as I could without :!:,'uiirig up the amounts, hut I Imvo no objection to show 3'ou my iieditors accounts, which will give you some id la. SjW). I do not want to f.sk \-ou for all the particulars of your !idobtc8, I only moan to ask, for instance, whether your mer- iiaiidize account on the whole showed a cons-idoiable pi'olit ? — 1 do i,"t think I am justified in answering it. ^;)\1. Vou are justified, but you arc not bound to state it? — I do not In! boiuid to let you know. S5I8. Do you moan to say that you do n;>t wish to let us know? — Nj; 1 do not wish to let you knit pressing you about it ? — Cer- !;iinly. \')20. Do you think that you would be ablo to give us the particulars ioiihis large item ? — 1 think 1 can. s')21. Have you found tho details of the entry of §;i,l(J5.")5 which , ivf were iliscussirig betore recess ? — 1 have. 8522. Can you produce it ? — I can. (Statement produce 1.) S5''3. This is in your letter-book, and appears to have been copied liom another papei' ? -It is a copy from the statoment furnished to tho j'iovernnienl. 1 prefer to give you a copy rather than leave the letler- il"ok, and you can compare it. i"524. According to these particulars all tho items of this sum were jgiven by you during the month of .luno, 1878 ? — Yes. S525. What is your account of such a large transaction ha|)pciMng jin Olio month ? — The CJovortiment wn-e short of supplies atul wanteil jttiese 8U|>|jlios returned, and I had bought these su]»plies on purpose to Irtlum them. Port •'rniic*'* l.4l('k- Nll|i|illfi«. AcClllllltNt ThhikM l>(<|iiirt- iiii'iii iiiuKi ii:ivo ImvdIcc slimviiiu ilclansot tills ciilry. WoiiihI up I)i|n1. Iirss III IjOi'Us tlffulT CUlllllllf iiway, til liiisliipss tlili'Iren imiiitlm. Hcfusi's to suy wliithiT Ills iiiPr- cliiimllzo ivccoiiiit sliows a coii^idcr- iihli' prolit. IV'tilils Dl'iltlOVl' i I I'll! of ♦•.'!. Iii").5) liroilucoil. All tlic jfoods si'jfiiiiiHt tlii» liviga sum lent tn tlii' montli ol'.luiH', 187.S. WILSON 53-t Fort FrKncea Iiock— Currants clianrcd Oat iii'';il '< els. Nails t' els l>,\ till' ki'i(. Ill fairness, prices i'luirK»'tl \vltiii'>s liv CidViTiimtMil sliould tip loin- Iiiircil wltli Ills jii let's. cuaillit'l. KxplaiiMtory r;tat(>iin-nfiis to ciMiiilii nmniur- 8520. Do yoii mean llial you had locii getting new goods at tiu' tiiio? — Vgh. 8527. Ani lho;e items wcfo sciectotl from your new stock ?— Vcs, 8528. Tbo quantitios appear to be almost wholesale quantities; |,r insttinco, one barrel ol" currants and other items in large quanlitiC'i ?- Ves. 8520. At what price did you charge those laigo quantities? A; retail price or something like wholesale prices '{ — Somothing Hi;,. wholesale price.s. 85.S0. "Currants, 15 cts. ;" would that he near tlie wholesale piii,.' — Ves; taking freight into consideratioii. 8531. Would the costs and charges amount to about that sum?- Yos; pretty near it. 8532. "Oatmeal tit 8 cts.;'" what were you selling it for loUiil v that time? — 10 cts or 12 cts. That had to be bouglit here. ;iii, bought pietly high, and freight j)aid on it. 8533. What was 3'our retail price lor a;:es ? — There weasel to i; 82 ior them. 8534. Do you remember your retail price tor nails ? — It was u(;;i) , ing to >vheie we purchaseil them, they ranged IVoin 12 cts. tn 2.") i.ls. 8535. I\v the keg?— They ranged about 10 ets. to 12 cts. by the ke,' III. S53(!. You charge cts. here. Was thai iiUen led to be about tl,' wholesale ])ric.e ? — ^■'JS ; 25 els. was the common price al For' Frances tor nails, that is what the llud>on Hay Co. charged for iIkh; 85;{7. Would the! Swan Kiver priees be anything like tlio I'.ir Fiances Lo.;k prices/ — I do not know where Swan Kiver is, Incon,- j)!iring these prices it vvoidd be necessaiy to compare them with th' jirices that the troveriiincnt charged me lid' those j.anie goods. Tlnv must corresDond, as it would not bo fair if they chai'ged me one \)'.\(\. and 1 should not be alloweii to charge them the same. 8538. You will please furnish us with :i copy of thi> staliMiii'ii! ;i' your convenience ';* — 1 will. 853!*. Is there any other matter ci)nnei'tod with the Paeitie Kniiwin or the Fort Frjiiices Lock, (Hi which you wish to give evi Icnce '.''— I liavo u stali'tnent that I would like It) make in reference to some iiimDii!' which are circuliile 1, which the (.'ommissioii have not touclieii iipii; at all, «nd 1 woiil 1 like to state thtit before the furnishing deparliiion: of the Covernmoi.l ntore wiis oll'ered to me it was otlerod to twoolhoh, iijimely, S. II. Fowler, of Foit FraiK-es, lumber mcrchinit; also Julii, Logan, storekeeper ior the Department at Fort Frances and it w;i« only after their refiisjd that il was mentioned and oll'ered tome. I' was rumouied that the build;. 5g occupied by i.ie as a store at I'^i: !■' ranees bolontred to the De| '•• nont. and that I paid no rent It the j same. Tb.i; buildiiiirs actually occu|)ied by mo : first during the month (»f July — my first nioplh ii. " usiness — i occupied a building beloiijjint: to L). Cameron, of Kinean'iiio ; from the 1st July until tno day I I'M Fort Frances, I ooccu])ied a building belonging to S. IL i'\)wler, liimb!' merchant, Fort Frances. Do thi- Commissioners wish lo see thot'iiln'j ill that"/ 5:i5 WILSON goods at tla Lock ?— Ves. [uantities; i,r qaanlititM ?- iiantitios? A: )inothing lil;,. olosale pricj' il thai sum .'- it for roliiil u; «^ht licre. aiil we Utjol lo i;- -It was aci'oi'a- ts. U> 2") ets. •t8. by I ho ki,;. Lo bo about ll.' ])rico al Ivv I'i^od I'lif iticii; like tlio ['•<:■ er is. 1 1) ii)!ir thorn Willi th'- ' IciK'o'.' — 1 havo some i'uinou!> L toiuhoil iipn; ing doi'iirliutfii; I to tv\H)0lll(31>. iiiil; also Jolii, (^'•i ; ami it w:i« M'od to me. 1' II store at K"i' no rout t';r the iriiK^ l!u' month dii);.^ bolotiiriiii.' tuo day 1 I'f Fowler, luniM'l <) SCO the ciili'i-* Paid «:!,iMKi for Till' cat til' sdlil by wiliii'ss |i\iichn.s- i'"»«-- Sdiull/.. Winnipeg;, to the lion. i>r. Tiipper, Minister of I' lilways, Aii«-if.-«i mis- dated Jitisscll House, OUawa, 17ih December, \S1^, as follow.s : — "j, made at the lime the transaction occurred. 8543, About what amount do you find that yo'i paid jUtogoihcr tor treicfhtiiig between those two points, lo persons not connected with the I'lv'ik'iiUi (iovormneiit ? — I p:iid aluut $;iOOO. >544. And no person conneclod with the (iovornment transp irted ;iii\ of tliOf-e goods free of cliai-ge, cither between these two points or any otiier ))oints ?— No. It was also stated tiiat the cattle sold l)y me ;ii Fort Frances bel'wiged to the (lovernmcnt; I wish t't show W. F. Alioway s receipt foi' live head of cattle. 1 tUso state *h:it 1 jiurchased r,\v bead of cattle from Capt. Wylie. of the North-West Angle, one liKin S. II, Fowler, of Fort Fiances, and one from one Frank 'I'homp- <)n. There is also an extract from a letter from one W. S, Volume to ihr Hon, iMackeii/.ie Bowel I, dated Cross Lake, 14lh December, 1878: 1 al. kept and rendered in detail to them. I may stale, Mr. C'ommis- [•''KMior, that I feel that this statement sbouhl be made in order to sat i>I exhaustive. details to tlio satii extent tliiit yon were ? — Tlieso were fiirnisli. 1 U\ the l)ei)art merit to Mr. Sutlu'rliuid jtist bof'oie the investiiration wtiid, took ])lace under the lion. Walter K. Bowii and Mr. Alo.xaiidir M' Arthur, of Winnijteg. 85l(j. Do you know whether that invo^ti;;ation was ba-el u|m i. ov;. Anumnt nf |nir- ctiascs irnin ; fiiiisiilc (Jiivi'rnnKMit ; 'leneo luu concerned. ier oiith '! — It wa.s not. J could not say as far as every 'lie Is 8547. Was it obtainini,' int'ormalion froin those persons only wi would voluntarily give it? — 1 could not tell. 8548. ^'ou understand that they had no power to make win,." aj)pear who did not wish to appear ? — No. 854SK So that their sources of infoi-mation wei'c voluntary >i;it ments from jjcreons who made Ihem ? — 1 think so, and from |;iii; who knew nothing about it; and they did not try to get it from puiti who were ni thi pos ition to know. 'ill! 855^. You have ))roduced these receipts, showing that you h.ivi | for cattle purchased on your own account, and that you have pai for freights to persons not connected with the (iovernmcnt ; th subject, and you ai'e at liberty i'\' establish your assertions on that retain tliese receipts if 3-011 wish? — It is my wish. I \vf)uld iioi c'li,. only there may be another investigation; this is the second or tlijpi one. 8551. Is there anything further that you wish to sny? — I was ii.-kcij to state, before recess, in round numbers, what was the amount 01 mv purchase from other parties, independent of the Departmen'. ?— 1 v. state that it was about $25,000. lav 8552. Do \ou remember whether, in makint; your entries conn, (id with the bu,sities.s, you charged your moi'chandizo account with expenses of carrying on the biisine-«s, or only with the costs charges on the goods themselves? — The expenses of carrying 01 ill)' I business, cer tainly M<'i('tiaii(li/(' HCCdlintN sliow )«roOls()l' business Icnvln;; value ol' ^\•it^<•ss's time onl ol account. 8553. Then any profit or bahiu'e to the credit of the men IimiiH/a account would be the profit of the business? — Of course; it wuui.l hm; show my own private personal expenses. 8554. Would your own time, in the shape of a salary, be eh irij' i 1:1 the business? — So; nothing connected with nnselt j)ersoiially. 8555. Then youi- merchandi/e account if any balaneo is to its rmiit. shows the protit of the business, except in so far as the value nf yiii;i' time is concerned ? — Yes. KIRKPATRICK K^ploralory *iiir»'«>y — Lnc il4-H niillc lf !;iii' ofLhe(iesMiiie fo,. the purpohc of seeing whether it could be ulili/e r I'.i onaiui. plant and povisions for the furtherance of the (-anadmn I'acilie i>;i' way. After that was completed I proceeded to F'ort Fnincis. S37 KIRKPATRICK IS OHl\' \\\]', ;U<0 Willi. -n- no-i coiiiicilel Kxiilorntor.v 1.III' ilrH Mill*- Soj". Fii'st of all fti.^ to that, do you know how lon;j;you wore cnifaji^oa Kk<«, ii(>«i{ii« that Hijrvcy ? — Abnut six weoUs. It was in connoetioii with tho Kram"«' *"' rt 111)011 M' jnit/uii'"-' J ' — — — ^ ■ — ... -- ... — .... v.; Lako, I tiifi.ccto Wa liivor to Uaingoon Lako, and down ihroutiii Man Itou aiitl back to I'nrt I-"rancts. ,..,ik, and t.'' 1 down tho Wahif^oon I \ ;|)i()\iii;!i Manitou, and hack to Fort J'^rances N)')^. That work, as I understand it, would have no connection in Kxpimatory sm- .,i;v location of the lino? — No; it was an c.\i)loratory biirvcy iii;»de )^'|Y.r'',','J,'.'i,^J!.''''' with Kuchon's micrometer. <)j'.l Was it made jirincipally for (ho jjurpose of {indinir 'inos of naiisjiDi't ? — VoH ; and also (o ."-cc the character of the country, as no ' ixnloi'iilory survey had been made befoi-o then through thai country. ^5(;0. "What lime was occupied in muking tliese survey .s ? — The whole .i.iiMin. S')!!!, Until alout whtit time in the fall? — Al out the middle of (irloiicr. >5!2. Were you in change of the part}' ? — 1 was. ^')(i;]. What size party? — I thitik I hud thirteen men and one si/c oi |.uri.\ : . , , I ./ IllillCfll. ;i-M'l!lllt. •'iiit. Was it neces^ary to have any comnii'>sariat olfii-cr with you ::]inri j-oui' c.vjiodition ? — No. xaf..-). Was there any trouble about supplies that season ?-.\o; I mh-I.^.I^'Y,!;.'!;"* atlcriilcd to by iriiishcd Ihetn niyseit. \M. Do y'>ii mean that 3'ou b:>ui,fht what supjdies you consideixvl I lare.'isury and the Ciovernment paid for them? — Yes. \)'u. I'pon youi- own re-iponsibility ? — No; by instruction-^. ^5ilS. Hut I mean as to the quantities of supplies and prices ? — Yes. NVi'.t. You provided what you considered necessary ? — Ye-i. n')7<'. About how many miles did you survey that .season ? — It mi<;'ht Kxicni orKurvey liivo k'cn 3(11) or 4(10 "miles. It is pretty 'bard to answer without [.X's''''' ^" ''' >c;ilinf,f it. I made all the calculations ii;''erwards in the ottice, but I (iiilly toi ^fL't. It mit^ht have been 3(JU or 401) miles. "^.i"!. What were the modes of transport jirincipally tHe possible, finding out tho portages myself. Z'>, I)id you do the otlii-e woi k connected with this tie!d-work ? Pri'liniliinr) ."Siir\«'.y - ICiiNt mill «vi-Hl Iroiii Wiilti- K'ooii. he next 'p- 1"-"' ^ "'"'';' !'>" lliii- troiii Wabl- liinm cast niid WOfct. "•574. What was the next work ? — I ran a pi diminjiry liiu U;isoii from Wubigoon, east and we->l. S575. Were you In chargo of tho iiaily ? — I was. ^57(1. What was the size oi' tho pjirty ?— Between thirty and lorty. rmt'^Mi'ihty'i.. 8577. What was the nature of tho surve}- ? — During tho summer a ^""^' jl'ii'liminar)' euivey. KIRKPATRICK 5.8 Preliiniiiai-y WntVf.V — Cm at ami «vfHt from Walti- (;ooii« Slipplll'S. Finislii^il i^urvoy Railwny hncvi- lion- Wabiifooii ea8t\var;('un I-'ulls InstriK'ti'ii to '.ocato lliii' Irmii \V'al)ipi)v'ii casl- waril to Walii- l-Mioii Kivcr, I'^ritrayiil nl I his Mill il Maicli, ISTii Size (if party : lie- I \\ ct'ii liiiity ami /((ily. r.i.ft wllliout hllOW slllX'S, 1(1- ^Mi>.');aiiN hikI winter clitlliiiiL', v*2. l)o you remember what your arrangement was for ^\\\)\&- during the winter?— The same as they had been during the suiniiui, The commissariul officer was supposed to furnish me with all thai wa> necessary. 851)3. And was Thunder Bay the ba: tloii. S5!)8. Was any arrangemontH made for protecting you? — I ''^'li^vc ^*p2i|*!JJJ"|, pGOW nhocs were sent up, but they did iii^t arrive in time. Tlioy were tVozei) in on the way uj). 8599. And those other articles that you mention, how did 3'on procure Snnw Hiioesnnd them?— 1 made the.Ti and bought them. I made over forty pairs of !,y 'jlar""^ "''^'^" Miow slioes and thirty toboggans. Canvass, 1 thinli, was t^ent up to ;iKiko one tent, or it might have been two. 8G01 How did you manage about protecting the rest of tlie party ? —I hud tiie old tents, and 1 had to send in here for a skin tent, and I I'liink a stove or two. hfiOl. Was the work of the party dolaj'ed by tlie absence of these (onsiii^iaM.'tiino •up])lios? — 1 could have returned immediately to the ground when 1 ,',',7,!„'".'"*'"'^"' (amcdiiwn if J had had Ihc supplies on hand, whereas 1 did not start ■iiitii the week before Ciiristinas. StlO.'. What difference did it inaKo in the time of linishing your uoiK?— 1 do not think it really made any dilfeience because the woik I would have done during that time would have been thrown away. A" 1 informed you, the instructions 1 received afterwards were to abandon the line between the north end of Manitou and Sturgeon Kall.i and make a trial location of the line east from Wabigoon. 8fl03. Then the time that was lost was while yo\i wore preparing to •:o this work which was afterwards abandoned and not done al all? — Yes. n!04. After you commenced upon the woi-k wlii'li was nii, isth, w.nt LM then ?- 1 wentdown to « )ttawa via Winni])eg. '"' ^^"•'"'"•• SilOG. JIow loni; did vou remain there? — It could not have been vcrv k»ii\v»> •-«»«•«- ng, as 1 think I was j)laced on construction in May or .lune, l>i7fJ. CtMUrnei Mo. 1.5, Mi'lT. What construction was this ? — The construction of conliael 15. *-iiilS. In what capacity '.•' — 1 was assistant engineoi". >ii01). Did you take charge of a sub-section ? — Ves. NilO. What was the number of that?— No. 2. I supj>o. e tiny I'all it. -id I. Numbering from the east? — Yes. ^(!12. Who h.id charge of No. 1 ?— Mr. Kellowes. -)13. What was the length of his section ? — Nine miles. M!U. And of yours?— Nine miles. xin...niie>i.M,«:h ^t'l.T. So that >ours would be the second section Irom the end of !.*> '.' — Vs; Irom J{at Portage crossing. '^•IIG. Was that before the contract w.is lot ? — 1 think .••o. 3617. At what time do you understand that the construction con,- iiieiiccs as distinguished fi-om surveys or location ? — 1 should .say when liie coiitrnctor went to work. "'dS. Then did you go there as engineer upon the construction as 'Hi'lyasyou mention— June, I87tl ? — I went there as assi.ttant engineer i'» assist in locating the final location. A>:sl.staiil iiiiri- iii'cr, coiitiiu't l'>, .hull'. is7ti. In • •lilin.'r ()• slill- s<'i-tioii No. ■-. Xln.'inile> of M'Cl ll)!l It KIRKPATRICK 540 BHilwny liun Kn^ineer, My. Carre, as to what curves and whiit liI,,•^ i was to run. After the lines were run I hud to cross-.section tlioin, Bi/ Mr. Keefer: — 8(124. There are two liiie> marked on the location survcv, ivhicii ^i those did you run first? — I could scaivid^' answer that que uion l.>ji.ab' the line has been champed in so many ]dace-(. By the Chairman : — Sfi2.>. Did you say that you erosssectionel the lineovur the di^t.iinv which you located it? — No; only from station 480, my own p.ino milu.. It was afterwai'ds divided up into nine-mile subdivisions — into lour sub-divisions of nine miles ea(di — nnd I liai one of them. 1 (rov sectioned that from station 480 to (!50. 8()2(!. That was durin<^ the season of 1^7') before the contract w;i- let? — [ do not know. I do not know when the contract was lot, 8(527. The contract was let in January, 1877?— Well, that was b.'foiv the contract was let. 8628. Did you cro.sssection it thoroui;hl3 or only at some diiliM' ])oiiits? — 1 ciosB-sectioned the wiioie of it. 8629. That is the whole nine miles? — Yes; I cro.ss-sectionod tl.j wliolo nine miles for ])rcliminary cross-sections, that was bofort' tii.' contractor commenced. 8030. How do you record the cross-sectionin_i;s as it is done fioni today? — Ki'iher in the level book or it is reduced in the tiold taken plus and minus from the centre line. 8(i31. If taken plus and minus from the centre line, would you ircori each day the I'osult of the cross-sectioning^ mere'y ? J mean avouM vn record in some book the quantities which would be the result of tin cross-sectioMin*.^? — We would n<>t take out qiuitititics of those crosr sections until ai'teiwaids. 8632. Then you would only record data from which at son.e L\W' time quantities miifht be anived sit? — Yes. l;iv lli'i Kfconlfd fl(.Miies from u'liU'li iiiiaii 8633. Tlion wlien you say that you cro.ss-sectioned that nine ini!i- titles wl'iv'ti'iio'ii. that season, do you mean tliat you arrived at data from wliicli a sii! sequent calculation would ^nve quantities?--] recorded the figures twin which the (quantities were taken. 8634. Did 3'ou take any pjirt in making the calculation and arriviiu' at the quantities afterwards? — Fiom those cro-ss-sections i did. 541 KIRKPATRICK ijinii (liffi(;.i'.' lioii- C oi.trnct Ko. 15. 8035. WoiiM thai bo in the winter following' or was it, dnno (lurinrs for- ,. -oaxiii c)l tlioliold work, or do \-ou romrinlioi' ? — Icaimot rcMiiemltfr "V"'"""- '"•■'"''■'^ ,or\ well. It may luivo uocn in tho onioe liorc. I ronioniooi' lorward- aiii-r iiicy wli,! ,_/in3' fiosB-.seftions aJtci' ihoy were plotted. i>i"tttii. S'!3li. That would Ijc data for quantities? — Yes. siiy?. Do you iom"inl)cr where you for-vardod tln'ui ? — To the Divi- -;(in Knj;incer. Mr. (Jario. m!33, Where would ho be at lint time? — He miL;ht have been on (he ;iiio (»r lie Tni.n'hl have lioon in Winnipeg. I rather ihiniv I sent thoni II with Mr. Fellowes, who was going in at tiio lime. S'i'3'.'. V>o you remember what time of tho year that would be ? — I M) not. ;!«!;K). What is your opinion upon these matters: whether those parti- (• liar eross-.seetions of yours were used in arriving at the (piantitios, v.hich wore otl'oretl to parties tendering for the worU ? — It could not iiiivo been. The}' had not time to make out the (juantitios, I thitd<. I 'hiiilv tho tcndor.'s must have been out long botoro that. ^'«v.MniHM-. ^'M-i, Did you remain in that locality during that winter? — I did. Sti45. Did you do any office work connected with this season's ticM ^volk' ? — I did. f^tl-iO. Wheic? — Di the bouse that we built that winter at Ostersund Station. >()47. What was the nature of your winter's work ?--Ileducing and ^Y'llV'"^*"'"' jilotliiig cross-sections, and making plans and ])ionle8 of the line. seeiionsand niaklnsj prollles. t((48. About what time would that work be finished so as to be made use of? — Use of in what way ? 8tj49. I mean to furnish contractors with particulars, or anything of 1 lat 'vind'' — Well, it was being carried on all the time. For instance, to make a profile of tho line ii only required a short time — a week. 8650. Dill you furnish a profile to any person within that time ? — Uiihin a week after getting through ? 8t)51. Yes?— No; I think not. I do not think I was called upon to Not called on to t'„,.; 1 „ 111 !•! i. .1 . . . f^ i' niakeprotlleuutll Hiiiiisii a profile until after the contractor went to worK in rebruary, after contractor 1,S77, bad gone to work February, 1877. 8652. Would that profile be tho first, in your opinion, which was iimdoofthat particular portion of the lino?— No; it was tho first of 'liiit line, but previous lines had been run — centre lines — perhaps I KIRKPATRIOK 542 RalUvny Locu- tion- Co ill met Sit. 15. Quant Itlos asi'rr- taiiK'il iliirlnt; Fniluiiy Coil* Nti'iK'linii, Oiif vpry hcnvy fill on wllni'.-H's SC'C'tloll lit (TDSS- iiiK of Liik<'<'<'|iii(in. Pf'Viiitlon (if line ecn a-cortained befoi'e the sjifinj^ of 1S77 uynn \\u. pMrlion of ilie line to which you allude? — Xo ; l have not. Sdotl. ho these I'einsiiks Ujiply moi-ely to the nine niiUi sul)st''tiip|, of to H li.jiger distanee ? — (Jidy to my own work, the nine rnilus. fc(I57. Wiis there any particular poi-tion of thsit nine miles whic' lequircd mote than usual attention, or which wa.s more than umiuI:, ilitt.cult for construction ? — No; I think not. It was all pretty ditti./iiK fi('<^S. What w!is the j^Piieral character of the work ? — It wa- a veiv rough, rocky i-egion — shores of lakes along which a line pu>>t"l ;ii ,i certain elevation. I do not think theie was any part ot' it llial wa^ more difficult than any other of the thirty-six miles. 8(559. Are there any very heavy tills on that nine miles? — Vo> ; there is one very heavy fill at the crossing of Lake l>eception. al«ir station 795. 8600. Is the lirie, iis now constructed, upon the line whi(l( yi.i located at that time over that spot ? — N(tt altogether. Not more thai! half of it, I suppose. 8G(il. Has the deviation iliminished the (juiintity of the \\-<)vk iiiyo;r opinion ? — Ves. B// Mr h'eefer : — 8f)G2. The grade is very higli there ; has that been reduced since'''— Xo ; it has not. By the Ch'Urman : — SOG;}. Wy- it part of your duty to ascertain the naturi; of the touiuii.- tion for the work ? I mean the kinil of su|)port whieh it w<»iild have, whether earth, or rock, or muskeg? — Yes; if the hivision Hnginod' gave me instructions to do so. 8064. Did ho give you such instructions ? — In some cases he di'i. 86(15. I am speaking of this partictdar place? — Xot that I remeuiU- of. 8666. Do you remember whether you did tost the bottom ?-I I'emembor ap|)lying at one time, or asking f(U- boring tools or >oni(tliini: to sound with. 8667. Did you got them ?— Xo. 8668. Then did any soundings take place ? — Xo. 8660. Did you form your estimate of quantities without being ahlct') ascortJiin the kiinl of foundation ? — Yes; I took it from the depth ot tho water which is twenty feet. 8670. Can you sny what tho depth hivs turned out to be which was required to be tilled ? — No; no soundings were ever taken properly. 1 Ui KIRKPATRICK Wnvk ill vol!' IVcirioil altorwiuds to .soutul and could got no .-olid bottom at twenty Kit beiuw tlio water. itJTl. So that that would bo fortv foot boiow tlic surface of tlio water ? -Vos. SII72. Are you alile to my now at what ilopih there is a .solid founda- tion -No /)'(/ .)//". h'fcfer : — Bnllivay foil* Nil iK'lion — Coiilriicl .\lUl luuiidiil inn. '4. Have you over estimated the quantities required en this parfi- 'ilai' tilling, so as to a.sceiiain how much more thoy wore than the R(n-k i)r()ti'ction walls ill (Ji'epi'sl. spot. Rii( tln'SC \vc\f thrown out liltp St niws. amities which were at first estimated to be required ? — No; because I'll) not think with any calculation that any dotinilo conclu.sion could kairivod at. When the top goes on that Lank I think it will throw tout considerably more than it is at present. ?(j8,x Have you made any such calculation, ba.sed upon the embank- [nienl ii.s it now stands, without taking into account any future trouble? I -I have not; but 1 have to make that calculation yet for the final i'>iimate which is not yot comj)leted. ^^'^•i. Have you prepared an estimate of the probable amount of hwk n> bo execute* I after tlio 1st of August la>it ? — I am ])reparing I "no, but it is not complete. 1 am at it yet. '^''87. Was it part ofyour duty to discuss matters with the contractor iMiis work went on, or willi his engineer, or was that always done by •Ir. Cairo? — 1 did not consider it so. As assistant engineer I ccn- pwered it my duty to take my instruciions from the Division Engineer, iM'ifepnvtto him. Pi-eparliiL; ivsM- niati' of j>rol)i(ble atnoiint of work to be exccuteil. AVKntss's coiu'cp- tlou or Ills duty. KIRKPATRIOK 5U RnlMvNy Colla >ili-ii<'li maltiMs uoikci in ii plfiHiinf way hoiwtoi ym ;in,| tlu' foiitiartor'^ ciigiiitoi', or wcic tiicrc ditliciillicrt ? — I never li;(,| .i,,,. ditlkulliof. 8tiin:ilc» ? — 1 did cmi my nine miles. lu.i^rcii iniiiiiiiii.s 8()rtl. Did yotMlecido U|/>n lliu classilii alion of tlio (luanlitii's dhj,. !'iiri'ii"ii'ii7 liot""' work Z — 111 holid ruck and o;irtii 1 did, ijiit not on liio loose rock iin,.,. luDte rock. tion. I."'■"" •iiiU'^KO !il><'»l tho looso rock ?— I M tlu, nuj,,, , b< 03. And would the (jiiantitit's returned by you be ha.scvl u|iMn ili.i; percontai;c so dictated by him? — It wijuld. SfI94. Wa.x that satisfactory to the contnicti)r or the cniiiiicc:?-; think not. 8695. What was tho liiffercnoo of opinion between the ciigiiiocr I r the contractor and Mr. Carre? — It varied in various cuts. SfilH). Dill the conti-actor's en, , narrow banks as they are now doing. So9S. The work is now being finished by the Govcrnmenl?— u-^. SG09. It is taken out of tho contractor's hands ? — Yes. 8700. I>o you understand that tho work as now being dane !i\ tl,| Government is not so accurate ? — It is as accurate, but f'hiirnctororwork 8701. Docs it SO porfcctl}'^ Comply with the specification? — No; li <^nimc'nt?^"^" cause the work is not corapleted. Tho banks are narrower. In [ihi ■ of being seventeen feet wide in many cases they are not ten. 8702. So in places the lino is left not up to the specification '-In- complete. 8703. Do you understand with what object? — To hasten the commu- nication between IJat Portage and Winnipeg, 1 suppose. 8704. Bowe understand that the train is to pass over tho road before it is a8 complete as the contractorvvas bound to make it?— Yes. 8705. It is for the j)urposo of making the road useful earlier thiin itj could be if tho contract was accurately fulfilled ? — Yes. 8706. Are you aware whether the character of the work, as originl ally contemplated, has been materially changed since the contract wasj made ? — That I cannot answer. I do not know. Work l)cinu tlnlslifd by <^iovorniiitnt. 5*fS KIRKPATRIOK ilrilf'lioll ,71)7. r)i> ymi ri'momliiT tlio .|iU'H(i.>n ■>[ |rt«>tlo work Itciiij: ,|j^. <"'••••»'<>"• l•■^• ,,,,(.,1 al ilio linuMit" lliij eoiiti'iu't ? — I 'lo; Imi ii«. u^isistniK cMi^^iiioor ,(,li(l not «'i»ino witliir) my proviiici', 1 Mipji.cin, to discuss iho muUor. S'Oi^. I*i'J y"" ln'IM**^" *'* '' '"■ ""y '*' '■'^^ superior ollicois speaking ,.ttli'' -iilijyct. oi" ol lio tniitoiial lo Ik' u-od upon tin; liu<' Lft'orcj llic iUiai I'liiiii^c look pi.iro '.■' — I, may have tioiK" so. .S7OII 1 1' my moinory is correct, some Olio say.» that yon woi-o pro- •viit wlioii Mr. Jiowan directed some nt'llio etijLjiitoors to horrow all tlio ,,;,i'tli possible so as to use .'IS nuicli as jiossiMe on the lii I may int'UitI)"- a \\\>i\t price. |i;ivo Ik'cii. l)iit I do not. recollect the circiimstaiico, 5710. l)oyoii know tho ])ricc.s that were to he paid to tho eoiitriictor ■MidiUV'i'ent kinds of work I'or instance', solid rock? — I have seen it in Mr, Flemini^'s roporL as a ischedule of prices. 5711. What do you (hink ot the solid rock pi'ite, 82.75 ■.'' — I ihitdv it *.' ::. loiM.iia ms u very good jn-ice tor tho conti-aclor. ""'^ " «'""' '"''••'• '711 J)o you mean a hiu;h price or only a iairl}' jjood price? — iL was a fairly "j^ood price when the contract was taken, ihe cost oi sup- plies and material being so much heavier then than it is now. >J7i;j. What would you think of tho price now ? — Over tho same work ;,ii(l with tho 8amo facilities ? S7!4. With the present facilities? — It wiMild certainly b • ' igh. 87b'). Do you remember tho price ot tunnelling ? — 1 remember tho 'cmral prices of the ditt'ei'ont kinds of work. 8710. What do you think would be a fail- ])rice for tumiolliti!;- at the lime the work was commonccd ? — What kind of liiiinels ? 8717. Lino tunnol.s such as we require for that work ? — I may say I h;i'l,iio line tunnels on my sub-division, and of eoiirse I di J not go into ;he calculation of cost. S71S. 1)0 you rotromber whether it wasgonerally understood among i-rir-i. r<>i iuiukI- ihe eiigiiiecj's at that time whether the price was considered a high or '"'- '""■ ;i low one? — It was considered a very low one — Mr Whitehead's price ;.jr tunnelling — as far as I beard. 8719. J)o 3'ou know whether any of your superior nlHcers had the inrlination to make biin do more or less tunnelling than was osii- raalcd ? — 1 am not awareof the amount of tunnellinu- that was estimated :br. * S720. Without knowing that, did you know their inclination, 01 did jMii ever hear thcni cxpi'css an oi)inion on the subject ? — Ves ; I think- 8721. Who was it?-~l think I beard Mr. IJowan. S;22. What did be express?— His lakitiL^- dcligbt in ordering the ,'.!.';;V,:^^^,'*,';|;!,';, ,,, iuiinels to bo made. .iKi.riiii,' iumupIx to lif Ill.uli'. ^723. Do you remember upon what occa.-ion that look place, or who •Aire present? — I cannot say I do. I cannot i-emember who was pivsuiit. It Avas during one of his visits to tho line. 8724. Can you remember what was said on the subjecl ? — It was some p!;i('o whore a stream tunnel was necessary, and the District Engineer, Ml', Ilowan, ordered one to bo put in. KIRKPATRIOK 540 on (livlMiun. Hiriiflloii — (out I'll ft No l.'t. HT^f). \Viis tlitil till tliat w a- saiil '•' — Yi'> ; I tliinic lit* niado tin; iviriail A iirii(lMi>l!rii)- ''"'" ^^"'^ '■''* ''"^V •-" ''*' towards directing the tunnels to ho luaili?- Certairdy not on my subdivision. 8720. hoyoii ri!inembcr about what time the contractoi' tiist lici,';!!. to make solid cnibunkments instead of trestle work on your >idj(livi nion .'' — That I cannot answer without having my record hook. Tim; would show at wliat time borrowing commenced. 8730. Can you tell about what tinu' the solid earth emli.inkiiU'nN wore made instead of trestle on any other part of the lino, cDiitiii i 15 '/ — I do not know. 8731. Have you continui'd to be connected with that sidj-seotiiih since you first went up there? — Altogotiier until now. 8732. In s|)caking of tunnels, did you understand juo to ask only .[ line tunnels on y<»ur sub section '.■' -^'es. &7ii3. Are tlicro tunnels other tium line tunnels? — There art.' ^ti'.-an. tunnels. 8434. Have \ou any knowledge of the counti-y south of tlie'lim which has been located on section 1.') ? — 1 have not, never having' been over it. 873'). Have you had an opportunity of examining Ifed River bolwci'i; Winnipeg and Selkirk? — I have not. 873(5. You have not any data upon which to form an opiiiinn a> t- tlu* proper locality for crossing? — I have not. 8737. Has the grade been lowered materially since the conliail \v;i.« let on your sub-section ? — It has been changed in many places; tiiii ii was lowered. :ind it has iieeii ])iit u|) since that again, so I do not think that it would be materially changed since the contract was let. 8738. .Vie you aware that ihe cost of the work on section l'», ;i> executed, is very much more than the cost as estimated at the time that the temk'is were asked for? — I have heard them talking about it. 873'.». Have you any opinion as to the reason of that excess?— I Mip pose the (piantities could not have been taken out accurately. 8740. In your opinion, is that the proper cause of the dilVeiriico .'-[ I could not answer that, because I do not know from what data lluyj worked to take out those Hrst (luantities. 8741. Have 3^)11 ever considered the question of the change fnmii trestle to earth embankments .so as to ascertain how it atl'e:!tei'ia1l.\' • Ull'eit'iit trinii i' <'iil"'iiliii Ion "II till) Milijci'l, or u;ix jt <'•••••»««•-. .\o. i*. |'iiriiii'' a roii^^li iiiciiial i''.uii.:ili' '.' — ll \v:i> ii iuciiImI o iiiKiic 1 lijivc iu\ iT ll fii askcil to iiiakii any i-airiihu ion \iy my >ii|M'iior-. ^;4i!, llavo yoii any fit;iiic-. lluil woiiM ^]v>w ilic iiio U- ol it-as iitin;;' |,v «lii(.'li you arrived r.t lliat. <'oiiclii-ijon ? 1 liav.' ,ioi. sjll Have you ever foniM-il any ojiini »ii upon llir (|iic-! '.■'—I liav(.« niult) no i.'alciil:tiio'i>>. s;4.'). Do you rennwnlu'r altout tlio time ulien .Mi-. Smitli lii-t went iivoi' tlio line ol' your siih-section ? — I renieinlu'r wIkhi lie ijas-i- 1 ovt-r ilieliiii', l)Ut whether it was tiic first oi'o.iil time 1 caniici -ay Irom iin'iiii>r\ . *T4'i. I*i«l yoii take |tait in any convi'i'sation wiili Mr. Sniiili at lint iiiiio?— I may huvo (lone so ; hiil 1 taniiol ^ay llial I renuMrilicr any i,!iiii(ular conversation oenin-in^. *TI7. I'o you renii'iiihi'i- wiiclher lie rna'li' anv remark aioiit tin- iinlKiiiMuontH being placeii on tlio lim.' in-teaW ol tro.-^ll*.- work /— 1 ili> IIMl. •71"^. U tliere nnythinij fiirllu'r in ••ohiicction with tin- Pacitic h'lil- wav uliicli you would liki' to »'X|(liiin in Vinir eviilciii (>, or aild to your I'viili-'in'c ;* — No; but 1 .should like it to ho recorded that I ha\ c aiiswci ni I ;ilt(»^a'lher IVom memory, without any j iiinial ur diaiic-s to look lo. n4'.I, Have y<»u any reason to think that your an>wri> an- iiienr iwioii that aeeount ? — No: I have no* . P. SUTHERLAND, WiNNil'Ko. Thursday. ;'.Oth St-plcmber, 13.'-(l. Tin' Cli/iirman : — Mr. IVti-r Sulherlatnl now makes jm a]»|ili<'alion to AmiII.miiom t<> liit'C'oniiui.>.sion, lhroiii,di hi.s eounsi'l, to he allowed to a^ld to or <''»r- [."^"j',''.'jf^.j|'''^''""* 1 ri'it his previous ovidiuu'i' in the mailer ofdale. It i> ohjciii'd hy .Mr. Nixuii, in |)erson, tluit Mr. .Sutlu;iland .slwxild not In Ik; allo.ved to I iii;ikt' this correction or adiiition, because since he <;ave !ns evidence on hill' ti)rn\er occasion. Mr. Mi.\on has mad(^ a char>,fe ayain-l him of hKMjiuy, based on hi.-» evidence, and that he (MiLrht not Iheretoic lo I <• lii'iwcii now to alter it in any >hape, I eeaii.-c thi> would pr'-jiilice tite |fj^ition of the prosecutor wlio intimates that iip"ii >oiiie t'ntui e occa-'ii n !e jii'elioses to lake i'liitlier ])ro('eediii^-s Ju'de-e iIkj Miiniii;f lor the moment -which, however, we cannot admit — that a iiiminal charge before a ditlerent tribunal concerning evidence pre- [vmiisly o-iven by Mr. Sutherland, could govern our decision, the Com- n;i->i()iiers (h) not see how any condiiei or ^tatemellt on tin- jiart of Jr. Sutherland to-day, could atleet tlu' crimi"Hlity nr innocence d' hlaleiiu'iits made undei- oath upon a previous decision; they may, jliwevoi', atreet the histoiy of the facts which ar' before this (Jommi>- MOn for investigation; they coiihl not U'-.^cn ;ni\- mi-.toii jiici of his — hujipo^iiii^ there wa.s mi.-^coiidiict - at an earlier i <'iiiM!. M i-. Ni.xon i-< It'vulcmly wrong in his contention on I hi.'- head, 'riierelor.', as lar a> lour duty ia concerned — whii'h is to elicit all the facts — we :ire now ot I'iiinioii that we ought to li.sten to any '-iti ection which .Mr. ."^utleiiMid pvi»lios to make. 35^. p. SUTHERLAND 5-18 t <'y , s Kivfevliltjnoc. IjotuiH^ I ri-ndci'ci Mr Xix'oii's a('(M)iiiit. I wan s«Mit for to Dr. ScIk!!;/,. hii;i>o wjioio tlioy well', and I \va^ iiuo^tioiiiMl on inattors relating ,, my connection with llio stipplv ot i^oods to the liovfrnrni'iit. Tl, . intormalion t!iat ihoy a>*ko I lor I refused to <^ivo, and Ihoy advised tn. Ukm, ih'.l I was to bo siiinnioiKHl hot'oru some Irihiiiiai t<) t^lvc cvidemv That, was |)i'ovioiis to my rendering!; Mi. .Nixon's account. Thai is ;, ; 1 ii.ive lo ."->. In t.iiere any (jiiesliuii, .Mr. Nixon, wliieh you would \vi,sl. > to ash iMr. Sutiieriatid ? Mr. yixon : — No; iiothiiiif. NIXON. Pity inn ^nr- iiiid'l^'iii'- . r v«»r« liip— Houl<'> III riHilil of >Ji.\uir,s |iriv!il(' JK'i'OilIll- cXlllll- ll.'ltlull III I tils. .Miilirv N III' ( 'iillii- diiiii I'uciHo iijiliwaypliicccl lo Jsixim s priviitc ■.iciouiit u'lHild lie mixed lip wli 1 Ins •iiwii riiunoy In I lio ('finji iK'COUIlt. TiKAi AS Ni.xo.n's examination continiioi! : /)// t/if ('/i(i/n:!iiii : — 9'i')[ In your jiviirnal A on |»a;^e 20. an entry apjic'irs : " Hi']) ,vii :.. till; credit 111' ilii! L'ayinasU'i' ot' the ("aiiadian I'acilic l{ail,\ay. in Mti- (d'ants i'latik, .^.305 : '' can you say wlielher tiial was jihieed toyoui'iiii'- vidua! accouiil or to <.)flicial account? — It must liuve Ijcseii phiced to n'v indiviilaal credit, becau.se 1 ii.ad no ollicial account — thai is in myowi name; it was alt eroili ed to the t'anadian I'acitic liailway .Vcciniii! coiiiiiij^- from Ottawa. STr>5. Vou are 8j)ei\kini( now ol yoar ollicial account? — Yes. 875(1. Hut these entries, yoii think, would he: in ^'oui'jnivate aiM'oiiir'j — 1 |Mesuin<'Si) lift me exjilain lli.al mo moneys could I'O plarnl'' : ly ollicial account otlicr than li\' the (iovernment. S7r)7. A^siiinii'.t; that to bo ri^ht then, do you say that these iiiiMhv< were pla 'el to your [irivale credit ?— 'Wvs. ST.'iS. Would they be mixed iij) with other private moneys "t vnoi'l own in the same account? - ll is probable they would. Vis; I .siipp'iH'j they would. 8751b Have "ou any means ol' showing now what money- (liiU'Mii* in ihat way into your privati' aceoiiiit in the bank oiii of liiii.l> unii:ii belonged to the trin'eriimeut V — i have not. These would he nioiM.vsl whi(di I'.'ime into my hands a.-^ paymusler. the money which you reldwij to there. For instatice, a persor vms lined 85(J0 by '.ho C'oiuiui.>^:*iitii 1 ol .Mounlod Police; he was instructed to pay that r uicy h< nio. bItiO. Arc you meiilioidng that by way of illu- L' atiiu ?— Vt'^ '^1 ■way of i!lu^tr{^tion. r,n> NIXON III tlsLse iivin>'V>m «7(Il. Tliis ii;irtii!il;if iU'in \v;l■^ a iiiiiMrr p •• ' •iMii'i;;- Id llu' I'uL'ili- li'ailu'itv ? - Vc> ; I'u oilior wa.'^ Th- .Mnaiiini i'Miiic. >7 i'J. I' ' N'oii iiMiicinln'i' a!)i)'it this [(ur; u'lila ■ :U:n ? — I to n >t. ^(■Ii. /v..! 'I'l y.i'; say lliat V'Hi !ia\<' i.n iii'iri- iin.v m]' >li,i\vii)'_;" li'iw llii- nv'ii'y.-' wore pi-srd to ymu' cit'iit, or win' mhioiiiiI of inuiiry «> p.'iv'i.'d to your crciiil V — No, ti.c b > »k>. \v;l. -ho.v iha'. 1 ilo iioL •av lli;it. •71II. I ;i-Ic<'il yoii il'yuii i-oiil 1 hiiow ■a-IhiImi' yoii" privalc iiioih'v.s wi'iv iiiixcii willi t(io.-.o I'acilii.' IJailway luoiu'v.-. in y hi, privalu acv-oiiiit ;,i ihi.' Iriik, aiui yo'i saM yO'^ ? — Yi.n. >7(i,") I ask' you ii' you havi' any mean- oi' -,li(>\vi:i-- now linw much „; ;lu' Pai'iiii' li'iilway ini)n('y was t-o mixcl with your own in \\)v wav Villi (U'-cri 1)0 i iti your jtfivalo hank arroimt ?— ( )!iiy li\- tlu' (iovi'iii- iiic'iil ImoI's licl'ifo yo'.i. Tiic ino;n.^ys uro lliei'i- diariroil to nio. >7iiil. lif'iX' avo llu>. nooKs I'lO!)! Ihc lio-'nnin:; of your ollicc until thi- duldt' IS71! ; will you ]»loase show any ai'<'ou'ii w'lit-h oxhihits that? — Villi !ia i liot lor jri'l Iho jiccoiintant to ijo that; 1 havo not lime to i^o iivtM' tlioso hook-i now. •^7ii"- 1-^ tln'r(> !Uiy om.' aci'oiint wliidi will-how it without {jfoini^ovcr ;:;! iho honk-? — I (io not, ! not iho ari-oiintant. »7'77(>. I iiin tiot asking how it could h,' : I am nskint;. ms a matlcr of tlict, did you consent to ihv !\ic'tic Hailway moneys I c ni;- mixrd up witii the privato account 01 ^oiu own at tiio l).ink ? — I prosinnc thai is liiii w;iy il was done. ^771. I am asliiui;- yoi. to show to f ho nommi sioncrs (o wh:it extent the Pacilic Railway moneys were mixed with your <'vvn in your pri- vate ticcoual ? — I cannot • hut iho accountant can, I presume. *^T7'-'. Will you namt* one of them ? — bl. ii. Conklin and D. S. Currie. liLirk dioreisan exhibit jdaced before you, in nn'own hand writin<^. of ihf nioiieys whi(di I placed to the credit of the Ivcceiwr-* General from iiiiiHtli iomoiilh. 'I'heexhihit now hof(»re you is in my own haii(h\vriting ;>t'ivm time to time money.s wore nent. S77.'>. I>() you understand that I am not syioakinjjj of llio moneys which passG'i into the bank to any otiicial accounl ; I .'im speaking- at pre>'iit of moneys tliat were passed into tlic bank to your individual priviito account ? — T so understand. 877t. Then why tell me that 3'ou liave a statement tliat shows the iiioiieys tliat go into tho Hccoivor-Gonorai'H account? — Why did you not ask me that ? 8775. Eocauso I am tryini^ to elicit the truth in my own way. Please iiiiderstand that ior the present I am tryinii^ to ascertain the moneys which you conlroUed belonging to tho Pacilic Railway after they wei-e pill to your private credit in the bank. I am not asking what ulti- iiitiUily became of them, but I am a.sking how you ci)ntrolled them, and Pn.I'llinHt' r- nii<»li. kirrpiuu;. l>or> mil n mean- llIT I 111' lilOl' COM- tii'i'ti'il with Iti'iii. Dci'lJiH's Io show 1 1(1111 l)(K)l{s Unit (illVlTllllli'lll IIIOIII'VS Jlillli llltii 111- lulviitn .'icroiilil Will' i-hiirt;('(l tu him. • 'ruiiiol 'iliow to wlial I'Xli'Hl thi' llli\lll|-f! Ill ( '.I'.K. niuiirvs iinii Ills own took pliu'i-. NIXON 550 PnyiiiitNtcr- niiii-Piir- vry- Buuk-k«'<'i>iii;(. raiinni point mil )io\v the I ii: n- • liitii I'ii.l'k- K;iil- vjt.v mciiif.v^ mixpil with his jn'ivatc ;ici imiit wei'tM'(iiitrol!''c|. Rffci'N to liis book -liiH'jicr. Explains. ii' V'lU cHi; >Iio\v ill wiii.l way lln'y Wcri-. cdiU rolU-.l ;ui(l lo wli-u rM,.,,, they \\\M0 control lo.l by your privuto accoiint? — I can explain \,, \-,„| tranlciy ami iViH'ly liial llicy \v>ii! to my priviUr croilit, ai'.d iliai I .in' to l!)o Itt'ci'Ivoi'-tJL'iioral, iVoin moiilli to inoulli. thoso nioiuy> wliid caiiic iiitd my liatii.s. 8T7ii. I ouil*' iiii(K'rs(aii(l what yoti say, anil f have no idea iliai ii j, not cniri'ci, Inil in llic mciiliiiu; I am tryinij to a.icmtaia wIumIic; — bt'-ii(l(!s yoiir mem >i-v. wliii'li is as liable lo on-or as that of aii\- mln., man — iIkmc is any writliMi ixh oi'd ot tlicsc ' lansactions y — In iJio |,:,„i^., the 10 is. .^777. Then I propo o to ynii to lind it in the book> ? — 1 haviMmi time to find it in the boidis williout the aid of the accouulaiilr> , iIm, accoiinlaiits l<(!pl llie books aiid kiu-w the moneys. .'•'77B, Were ymi aware t'lat ihe ai'i-oimi int kept ono aecoiihl in \niii own name in the I'aeilie lliilway books V — 1 tliiiik so. 8770. Siioiild .>r)t(,") appear as (diai';^'ed a^ain-l your private aei'MiiPt in that l)()ok ? — 1 suppose, it siioiiN. S7>^(). Will you look ami se(^ il it does (liandiiii;- the lodger \> w'tltw--,' — This is a dillcreiil aei- unit wliieli }ou hand me. 87.S1. 1 am hamiiiio; you m» one aeeonni, but I am haridin:,' \()ii tin- whole lodger? — (,Lo(dhow that that iimucv Weill lo the Kereiver-t Jeiiei al iiel'oiv this Court elo.>es ? 87'^4. I will h:t you now? — 1 eould not show il now. That an'miiii is kept by my.sell. 87S5. I am not ;il present eni|nirini( whethei- any money tinuHv I'omained in your hand.- which belonged, to tho (Jovoi nment ; but, aiiiHii:;-! othej' things, I ae. eii(|uiriiii^- into tho system ol' book-keepiii;;' which was adopli'd at ihe time, sou-- lo know whether it was siitUcient in >l).iw the real .-tale (d' allairs, or whether it was deleelive? — I -iipjiu-c y>^n are tryinj^- to do me the credil ol' tindin^ out whether I kejii any linv- ernnient inori.jy or not. 878() You will bo allorded every opportunity to make any o.\|iliin- ation you ploa,-e about this matter. The quesiioii.s which 1 have pntti you are questions whiidv are su«:ujostod to tind (ml, in my own way, any points which I thiiilc iieces-ary to be elicited. Do you txMK'ink'r whether in the books, as thoy were kejit by your book-keeper duiiiiijtht; tii'st eijL(hieen niontlis or thereabout.s, there was an account which was intended to show the moneys which you obtained private control > if ?- There must have been. 8787. Then do you think that account would appear in tho loilgur' — It ou,^. I)o yoii roincmhor wliclhor yon ('.\i.>rci>i'il wiicli a >ii|KMvision ivor lii^ l)ooU-kocj)iiiii; as to Iviiow wliollier Midi an acfomil did exist ? — 1 ihiiili not ; I was very Imsy and had a ;.(i-oat deal to do. My diiiit."^ \nic oxcoodiiigly ai-diious un])':)Scovch that lan IhmIoih', though it may take a loiij.,' limo. , >7!U. W(^ are willini^ to Lcive the time, so lar as the Conimi^ioners aiv rDiicoriied. I )o 1 uMdeistand you correctly to say that your .-.ul*- ■XX 'Uld no\er be erediied with items of o\|»ense unless those •len - ■• • -J eerlilieil or cnrridorated by some olliccr ot the railwn\- on •iio>]K)ii' — Tliat wa> ^^'ciierally speaking the case. Ilowevei', take the ibtaiii'o of John Hrovvn and another siib-auent, whose name 1 did nol •siiiiioii ihe other day — .Mr. .McfJinn. The>e persons were alone in the .\.iiili-\Vesl for ]iart of the time — for ])art of the time alone — waichini; ^loivs, for example ; and tlion there wan another suba^ent 1 forijot i1m), Mr. Camei'on, a j.;rueer ol (his city. wlii> \ on can ^.^^et. 5Ir. Ciirrie *v;'s u siib-Mgont. Pll.l llllllll !'• niifl-l'iii' iil»<>h-!;<'r|iiiit;. Willi llcT 1>|,|)I{- l rliiim crt iiii-'l. E\l'(!|ll loii>, I<1 tlii-- riili'. >'(!•.'. Tlie other sub-a jarlicularly from tho-eiii the tield with Iai'j.^e parlies in the North- \\'o-t— V:dentine ('liri>tian, ,1. .1. Bell, and .lohn Mrcjwn, wiien he was Willi any pa'-ty. S''.''. Tak(> the first one yciu name: do you say that thecredMs wliicii v.iii have ))laced io Ids account woiikl lu* ba>etl on a ct'iliiicate from 'oiiR' (.iiLiiiicer or jiersoii who would know tho correclness of them ? — Tlif moneys would be by re<]ui«ition from tho er. V — That wo woi^ know from the return sheets whieh would tiiiue et the number of persons employed — the pay-lists. S7'Jr». Whatever tlio character of tho certificate or the sliape of it iniirhl have been, do you mean that lie would always havo certificates of >aiiu' kind before you to j)laco items to his credit against the moneys vliichyou had charged him with ? — 1 do not understand tho questifjn properly. Ni'<). Well, I will repeat it in another shape. Vou advanced moneys to him u|)on u requisition of .some engineer oi- person in charge ':»f tlio Mii'veyov's work ? — Yes. ^I'^l. lie wouUI not return that money to you, but he would send in ^tateiiionts for whicli ho asked credit. Is that right ? — No ; if you use the expression " for which ho asked credit." .lie would send instate- jnients using up the credits which wore given to him. ^■Il^■MtlM.■ < iniH- t iiin's iio'oiiiit . Uliri.sllaii wdilil Nend in stiil.t'- iiKints ii.-* rfi|iil- sltioM i-niilviilcnt 1(1 (•(•itifw'.ttc. Pay-ll'u<'0 of ci'itltl- ca(t's. ST'.''S. Would lie nul, ;i^l< civdif !i:raiii-t tlu'^c aiiuniiit-> wliicli v..;i I,,, cliiiii^^ctl ;i^:iinst. Iiis iici'oiint ? Ik) _vou know, for iiist:iii(H'. il' llu'!tMva>;, so]);iialo aci'Oiint kept with \'a!cnt iiio Chiistiaii. in yoiii- l)ii,i| liavo, you cliarLTod to \'alcntinc ('!iri>t;:in un (i. liaiit', in ;^i'oss ?— 85,t)iU,75. 88(11. Now Iiave you ij:iv(Mi ' ini civdit lor any iK'ni> a_:;;iiii>i Iha; '- Ves ; there are oxjion.so.s Iiciv. 8802. How u-onld yon a(> frolj;- _ His account woid which he clainied in it mviv correctly alloweii to him? — I diii, .Sir. 1 liave no douhl about that. ' think I can huIcI}' say that is llie case. 8805. Would these credits so allowed hini be based on (he cei-litli;i!.- olany one elso but himsell'? — (Jenorally speakini.;-, the en;;irii!fr ii charge luid to si^^n these — il' he did not, he would pi'esetii to nu' a certilicato, or rcv]uisition i-allior, oi(ierin<^ him to make a certain ))iir. chase. For instance, we will lake expenses, ?!i ; »xpeiiso>, Shin expenses, S'JO. I would watit to know what those exjieuxM wdv, and he woidd give me a rerjiiisit'on from the engineer to lo a certiiii; thing, nay buy a hor.-e, or a cart, or u dog harness. In that way [ lind a supervision, but noothei-. exce])t where the account would he rc'iilcivi and signed by the engit)oers. l.*ay lists were always suppoM' 1 \n !,■ signed oy the engineer w hen they came in. 8800. Were they always signed, do you think ? — Perliaps thi'ii' iiiii:lit| be some instances when they were not ; Imt we knew the iiiiniU'i men in the field at any date, because I eni[>loyed them, or tluy weivi employed undei- my ken. 8807. If they were emj)Ioyod be}'ond your ken, what ceititii-.r. would you have to form the bisis of j-onr credit to your sub a;ritit ' -I This amount would be on tho pay-list, and tJlftso pay-sheets would i»' signed by the engineer in charge. 8808. Is it j-our recollection that the accounts of th»>se su''-a.' were satisfactorily settled with you? — That is my recolleclioti, alw.i - 8809. Do you remember wi-iting to any of those sub-agents that tin'- j . had sent you no certiticates corroborating those statements for sovi'ml! months at a time ? — Yes; I do not remember to whievoiy[ little moneys placed to their credit at all, 8811. You speak of $5,000 to this man's cedit in one year?— Vo;. mmmm :>:>:i NIXON .U'Mii^l that '- I'n.yiijUHlir- iiiilill|-,-r!ll(Mlls uti ;ii'<-niliit >>{' the u,V» '*"'», i:«'|.Vir!;. (iin-i'riin;i'iit ; was ii iiiU'tidod thai yun yains wore iii.~liUi'!sod ? — (/'erlainly ; and I diil. F81ii. t 'oiild you (>\rrcis(' thai ju l!i;im'iit willioiil .-oimdil; thi> cc;'!!!!- rates nj no ])ei'.~on othci" than (lu^ mm hiin-fH' wiio liail ihi' iis.> of tin.; moiicv '/ — X<' ; iinhiss i liad Inquisitions tVoin llio>o nicn. It tin- ciiL^i- iH'cr makes a rci|insiti(»ii to have a <'crtaiM work don.-, or a <(i't;;!n man .•miil'ivi'il, it is na'ural lor the payniastor to suppi^c that ihai n'orlx' !i;(« bci'ii done. ."Sit. IMeusi) k)ok at yotif h.'ttci'-book, \>.\;j:i' '.!~!', an i n;;_\ whalis yowy acolk'Otion about tliat niattor? — I rocolloit th;;i ih-s |iay-'hoct came into nu' ill September, OetoliCi', Noveinher ami 1 »C''ei.ihcr. S8b"). ni" what year? — I eaiinot tell I'oi- tli(> moiiienl. Il ni;i\ iiavv.' been April liH, IbTti. SHKI. But the Docemher was in ]-^~')'.' — Ves ; this is Ma. letter i.cinr t.-c^hr-N- ddicssod lo \alentitio Christin!", 12th Ai.iil, ISTIJ, and read- as J^/V^^;' ;';,','.'';,','''•' ''- tolluWS — ■-rlili.-al.-s. ' I (icsiri' to (iriiw your attPtition to the very {irnvp omission on your [inrt in ros'.icct 'II ilic jinv-?lnM.'t3 f'i)r iln" nioiillis (4 Kt'i>teinli.r il c tutiirt' ni> omissii n of iliis kiml occurs, us 1 cxi cct iliiit Uii-i alluilcil lo vvul Iji.' relurtKni tri'Di UtiHwa for tiiu digimtuied which bhoiilti l)u attached." >()\v iicrmil ine to make an ex|)lanation. ();;,- o! llie cn^imers, i^ikhs nrn-^ni ir> Mr. Ijiicas, |>ositivol,y I'etiisrd to si<,Mi any docutiii'iits. as lu> ^aid l,,. ^Ik" ""> mm ms. Ii!id nothing to do with it. That 1 Jiow tian's ili'ins alliidcfl to in that letter arc n(»t eortitied to? — No; I meiiiion lliat as ^ome of the ditticulties sub-aovnts mij^ht haA'o. SSIS. Do you remember that tho^o items which appear to have been rrodited to Christian wore aftorwai (Is corroborated by any certiticato uccordiiii; to the juaetic(> whiidj he account is balunceil by j;ivino- him credit on 4th ha'hnl!.',',^ ''^ October, with " Itenk disbursomcnts, les.s credits, §5I{.")," and " November, Bank che(|iH-s. $1,-88.75," — can you nay who i^ot i1h> lieneHt of these rhiHjuob — 1 nwan in the tirst instance ? — 1 prestimo the parties in the tield. 1 think Mr. Conklin could fully explain this matter to you. -^91{K Tfyou will look at paf;o 107 of ledjjor Ayou will see that .John Joim nrowii',a<-- Brovvn's account fwho was a subuLaMit) is tinally balanced by a credit !'."",'i!,!;"!!;"'''""'' of 82.801 j23, wiih tho words "Bank Account a crodll ol lo you remember, or $2,H(ii.28. 'iin you explain, what became of the money with which he is there 'edited, or what tho words " Bank Account " moan ? — I do not know 'vlieiher ho put that n\oney to his own credit and gave mc a chetpie ♦* , ' t NIXON 554 l*« J•|llll(^l«■r- llllll-Pll■-- I. IJ. Uowaii's .'K'l'omil liiihiiici'il liv ii rnilii 111 No |)il Viit.i' tiiins- ^M'tions lici woi'ii M lliicss mill Hiiiun Willi au <..NCI pi l')l\. H1,oi'i-iM)«»k kept ti\ .lulil' ":ilT. l-ayablo lo nie as paymnstiM'. This por.-on \va> a i,'01'm)1i wiio M)i,| v^py iarno stores in tiio Nmth-W »'•>(, this .loiiii Hiuwn. ami this woiilii i^",, wluMi lio camo in and niado his linal ri'tiirns tur ihat yonr; al loasi | noiiM |)t•(^sllm(! il v'oiil.l. 1 could toll yoii holli'f i!' I coiiid -fe' .lo;,!, l!ro\vir> af.'CKiiiit ill detail as loiidorcHl lo the acroiuitan!, tho simiIdiiu'i i madu. 8821. J)id you Unow whclhor CJoiiUliii had hocii cinployt' 1 ,;s Ik,,', Icr an\ whoio betiiro yoiiisinployod him? — 1 do fiol knoiv Jim .i.u and 1 do not. ii'iiu'iiiluu'. I lold you thd otiuir day that I had liiMid i,.. was the I'riiK'ipal oi'a foiniuoreial collL'^e al Hamilton. 8'^-2. l)o yoii un.iL'i->tand oiiouucli of iho sy-!cin upon whii li 111,,^. hooUs wei't' kept lo explain to what aeeounl 'lial item oii;;|it to!,,. ilohitod . thai it(Mr> which you have tjiven .loiin Krown credit ior,'_ Nil : I Will have tu leave liial ti; C'oiiklin to explain. 8^'.';',. On paiiH- IdS oi ledger A, iho ac(i)iinl of James II. i|,,\vaii appeals to iiave l>eeti lialaiiced in JX-eember, 1S7(!. I>y an item Mtcil..;"^0 p,i>sed to hi> ereilit with these word.- ".Scllled with the l>epai!iiu'ir Jiir balatiee of af<-oiiiii ; " do y(»u recollect anythiiiLC about ihc traiisn lion, or can you explain what uccoiun wasdci'lti'd with ih.at ilciii wiij.ii yiiu there j^rive h m credit lor? — No, 1 do iiui. reineiuber. Tluic \v;|. a lare|>ariiiK:hl, |.ii some expen.--e whicli he had not made an account of — 1 n.a nov spe;dcino' entirei\- from meinory — iiol a siiiii o.jiial to lli!.-, aiul lie was iiislructuii, 1 tbiiik, to pay back the balance. It may he ni c m- neciiun with iliat in some way. 1 do nol under.>lan I thai that, is tlic $r»44..»5. I thitdv liniou_jjjh il is tiial ilom lliere, I think that was ]i;iiii buck by order of tiiHr Dopui'tmeiil. H^24. Tben llmt last rcinai-k would not a})pl3M<> ihe last item ot' whldi 1 huvo H|>okoii, $\:A»^ ? — No ; 1 think not. .-SJ"). \{}H have no recollccuoii of this lar^'e item which eloxd .lolm Brnvvn s account, a.H to iho disposition oi' it? — 1 d<» not rcineiuber ai the present moment. SS2(I. Had joii private transactions with Brown separate In^m I'lu (.lovernmeiit account? — I had in one sense. 1 put money of l)ru\v!^^ into the savinfjjs bunk for him, but that is all. i had no otiier, aid they were his own moneys — Ibey were not (Jovernment moneys. Thai is all the transaction 1 hud wilh IJrown. 6H'2~t. Yon were not umier lavours of any kind to him ? — No : notliiii;: of the kind. S^'lH. Vou |ust iiandied his money to dojiosit it? — That is all. Wlioii be waH ^oing to the Norlh-Wcfit he gave me the Mum of ^2,000 or §3,000 which he had. to jmt it into the saving's branch of the bank to lii> private credit. >^2.d. Ah iar uh j'^ou cm tell now, are you of opinion that ho settled th;U balance, ami thut the (rovornment got the benefit of it?— lam , fliOHt decidedly. 8830. Look at this book marked " store-book," and sav if thi> i> the book t() which you refeiTed in your former evidence when you said ttoat a book wa.s kept in which there would be shown the articles tliat had gone into the store, those which had gone out, and the balance which .)55 NIXON tern ol wlmh -No ; iiotliin;: I'liyiiilifitt'i'- itiiil-Piir- li^maiiu''! llie:o IVciii tiiiif lotiim"? — Vo> , 1 ]:l\■^^lmo lliis i,-> ihc lio^ii;. i{,*,ou-k«'''pinK. [ ,^^^■ i! is ill .Iwliii l';(n'> liaiidwritin^' — iuksI of it. ^s;',l. hill yi»;i ihtoiid thti*. tliai hjuU >hoiiKl sliow at jiti}' t,'ivi'ii time ii,i'!inii)'ii.l ol' |ii()]HM't\' w'lifli wu.s llieio l>eloni;iii^- to iIr; (iuvt'i'iimoiit ; whicli wotiM Ijo ill tho stuiv atxl wliich would In* Kont rrum tlio ^ll)^o .il^„y — 1<\)V instance, wlicii I would ii'cl a ro(iui>itioii, tlic licsl tiling I WDiikl do voiild bo to liaiid till' I'l'miisitioti to tho stoiviiiaii, and ^o ovor llior'lolo and .-ii'o il'aiiy ol ot tluMii; .11 tlr'u way thoy woro ro-i.s.sutHl. <<:','2. I a n dii'ectiiijf niy qncslioii lo ascorlain this: wlu'thcr at .any T.x.k sIock jilimxI ^'jvfii time iho hook w.mld show the balance ot the stores t hen on hand ? "' '■'^^■'' •^'""' l_Yc- ; 1 lliiiik we took >toid< at the end ol'i'acli year and. rcliirned t(t ijie (idverrinioiit the atnount wo had on hand. ,-8i)."!. Was il only vvhen slock was so taken ihat one could ascer- tiiiii llu' ;iinoiinl of stores irom your books? — 1 )»resutne that was all, .•\iojti witlioul ;j;oin'^ over the book and sceipii,' tlu! amount whi(d> camo ill aii'l lh(! amount \vhi(di went out. .\i;iiiy of these stores wore worth- less wln-n I'oturnol I'rom the cook'. 'riier<( woie tin pots, krtlles, pans, l>ii;:i^ai:s, snow .-hoes, ^r., w liich !iad been u>i'd ;;;i. This boidv ap|iears to us lo cojiiain a series of memoranda of wimt suji-r iirmk jiariic ii'.'ins.ut.ioijs — tho I'oceipl of troods, for instance, and the issue ^ '''''"" •riMiiual.y . hut it does not ap[)ear lo contain ti statomont aiway.s slidwiiiu;-, or troni which it coidd be always a-certaiiied. wliat stoivs viif I'll hand at that piirtioular time : is lliat yoiii' idea ot thi' l)()ok '.'' — Vi'-, ] llunk that is correct. s^:i.'». Did vou youisclfat limes i)a\- waices an 1 t.ake croilil for 1 lit' Witness fit times iiiViiHMil^ as llicy appealed upon llu; ji;ty-sluvts 'r* — 1 lliiiik to I . • pii'il \\'.'ii;i's liliii- '■"'"'^ Sflf :m.l tllolJ iiiicliuies, 1 think I remenibor. (Lo >kini; at the boolc, pai^o .'U4. ledy;er '•i' it iiiontioned " l)y waives as per })ay-.sheot " in which eases (here .-ire inly illicit items. .1 pie.-umo that these were men sent in by iho ••iii,niicer. ^S.'lti'. With the pay-sheet? —With the pay-siieet ; I aiu not sure that I atn cori'ect, but as \^ell as my memory serves me that is tho way il is. 1 may say that if the sum mentioned tliore was taken out in one cluNpie iiy me, which is the probable way, the cheque would be " l>:i,y l):iyiii!ii^UM- for wajjjoH so much," that the pay-sheet would i^o (Iowa as ji voucher along with the account. S>'I!T. That particulai- pa\'->li(H.'t would l^o certified Vty yourself «nd ilie men who would sij^ui for their wages? — Yes; and the engit»«er. 1 would not j)uy wages of that kind without tho enjjincer I piosuiwe. i\. . I, ,'■ D CONKLIN 5r)(J <'I'i k ill Nl Mill's oltiic. KIvoh'm I'liy- iiiHHli r-nii■ >lii|i iiiiiM. Ili.iA- (I. ( 'oNaMV >H\voiit aiiil cxiirniiH'il : Uij the < 'iui I'll) (til : — S^,'}S. Win r*' ^■\^^\■U in tho oilivL* ol" Mr. Xi.;,,, S."-H. Wcii' ymi clorlc lural! lli'.^ Iiiiiiiu>ss traiisactoil in Mrii n|1ic.„ only li'i' a pai lii'iilav porii^n of il ? — I was cli'ik loi' all i lie i viirm . lines in (■•iijiu'ctii.n willi llio t 'aii;;i|ian I'anic Uailw.iy an i i iic .M nim,. I'oii' ctlii'c. cS-"l2. \V. '■'(.' si.|.a.'at(; b)ol. Ki'|ii .lay, iiivuicf Sh'-lTj. CoaM \.in rciiifnihiM' n<>\v what I)ooli' railway? — 1 iliinU l do. Ofcoiir-so I Inivi- novcTHo ii lli(U)i foi' siinic I'o ir yi'ar> now. I know wo kept a ook, a f-nsli-b .ok an I Icdjr,]' an 1 1 lliii'lc tiioic was an invoicu-liook for paslinij in invoice-;. E'ii|.li>.v.'(i ii-inii ninl iiook which you refei' In as the i|;i\- l)o()k ; it is niarkeil "day-hook A?" — fAfior exatnininif tlio IkmiL Yes. H81S. 'Vho first entvy in tliat is 12th April, 1^75; . 1)'. yon think that Iheie was a ilaybook bofurii this? — 1 d^m rcmetnber of any. I had no otlier. 8850. Had yon any knowledf^o of book-keoping I»oforc t'.ial?— Yi>. 88')]. Any praoticiil oxporieiiee .'' — \'es. 88r)2. In what sort of an establishment? — In n wliolosale store ii; iJamilton ; ai d 1 adjusted accounts in iluiniltOM as an uK-oiiiitiuit. liOflgir; tho way 885.'>. A moiin; othor books you have dosci'ibed a ledtrei-, wliaf i" the ,.,-,.niinisw,M.- object of a led. csiilo -^torc ii; ■coiiiilaiit. lilil tlrl'-llllll- S.-;')!- I' ' .>■">' ^^'i'''' 'I'- '" uiii!»'r>i;i!i(l that vmi" Iki iI; uasoniy In sIkiw i;,V,!k Y;'^"Irii'''* „. U"iii'''.ii"'i<>" • '»;' lhi> liiaiicli dtlici', as i'ar a'^ llic I'acilic Kail way was ■.)iicoi'iitHi ? — Vf.-i ; incn'ly I'.ir ki'cpiii;;' accouiil'' ol'ilii- I'llici... '-'^,")^) 'l''lit>fi <'X]icii'lilui\'-^ n( a'i\- jxcNoiis (III ace )U!il i>\' t'l' Ii'ailwa)' ;,iji lo irmii llii' ImmiI oMicc, ".v.jtil.i not, a('iM)riliii_f ii> y.iuv \-\v.\, apiicar , VdiM' li'i'lc". Is tliat what yiHi nu'an ? — ^'^•■i ; t'lal is what 1 iiK'aii. SP.'d!. As f'u' as your lirancli was cofU'irMH'il, will you loll iiic what (iim.'.i ,.f ic.iu.r : iiii.|t!i>U)o.l was iho ohjoct i)i' iho L'ily;or?— Ko».!)>iii:j: 111" w orkiiu-irs I;,Vn''s ac.'-uiM t''*' lints. S-.")7. Only w.)fkmon's ? — Xca. »,")S. hid you not koep otlior accoiiiils in it ?— OiIhm' acciSiinls wvn ;,,|»l hut it was not (rouiplcte. S8.VI. Not coniphMc in what i-csp.'ct, y — Foi- instanco: division I' Ti/c'V hroii^-ht snpplii's with llii'in, or tlu-ir cii^fiiioci's hrou^hl Mipplios I IK) knowh'iiiro of that. It would not show thy coin[»lcio i'X])cndi ii.'i' lie '> t J)ivipi()n I*, for instance \ liil:;.! -Iiollld sStJO. Tiieii, without rofcroncc to this Itrancli, would _voii ttdl tni' tin- .siicwViirini. ulijrct of tiio Icdgc^j- in any set ol liooks?— To show the ti'iu' [io>ilionol '"Jtin'sl.'" li ; husinoss. .^r^lil. i>o you undcrstund that your lo(lgor shows tho fruc^ position of iho iiiisincss of that hraiudi ? — It did, a> (ai* as the worknion were r,)ii(.'ci nod. ■^Siil!. I'o yoii say that the ii'dgcj' was only to show your jiositinn as iviraiils the workmen only? — No. S8(i,{. TluMi wliy did you adopt a uifVerent systtMn with I'c^ard to (ho .'ijufi- h"ro iViuii what you say you luidcrstaiiil to ho Iho ohjoct ot" a :i'i|'4or in any .sot ot hooks V — Foi' t his roason : w hon I was taken itir( ii MM nil H'lll employ, 1 was uiidci- the im])res,Mon thai I had merely to keep an imt of the dishiirsomcnts arrl reoi'ipts ot this braiudi, and that was to Ottawa, and the aooount.s kept enteird there in lull, 'i'nat was t I iiiidci'slood when 1 wont flioio. ( )1' (bourse they showed every ■>vli;i ,i.>liiirse.ine!it. 4. From whom tlid you _^et that idia? — 1 understood that liom Ssi I'. Nixon. lilcu ol lii-i (lulii-s 11 -^ 1 1(11 lie •|H r iihtMificd from NImiii >si;."). ,Su])poso ^0() Is were pnr^SliS. Tiion if any ]">eriod ol:i))sed hotwecM the furnishing o;' the goo is :<}' iho niorchant and the jiaymcnt ot them, to who^(; credit would tl>i'y ijipear? — i did nut liave the account until it was ])ai(l. Jl -uas the ii'^t 1 saw of it when tl;e accoiiut was brought in. Tlie mercl,;ii •iijnilicd tlie goods would bring in his account, and that would ir.' tl il w;io St I would CO ot' it — on the payment u\' it. f-. CONKLIN Ml (Oil** l'n>- Ilinoltr-Hiitl o.IiTk'tVi'.'iHu.'* >^'^i>'*. TIh'ii 'li lo lim.', il,, I ('i]iii«-ilioii oi' ilic )iiwti<'s. tli<' sii|i|ilii>- wliidi wiMt' t'linii-^linil a |.,, <[iii»itioii lM)ok kept, 1 fornctcNiiilly liow il \v;i> l<\\' u^ haviiii; bi'cii >in>|)liL'd. Ni> it'finil 111 Mil t.raiiMM't iiiii until till' inimi'.v WHS paid t S«7if- Hut did \'oii kc'fii ..n\' record ol' tin' -titc oftl !«' MI'C'Mllits lic't\v«'«'ii tin' tinu' tlu' i^'oods were fin iii>licd and llu' tiiiio at wiiiili il K'\ Won- |iai< i lor/ — N. SS71. For tlial iiorlioii ot llio liiuo llic t lan^aclion u;is not rocoidt — V a s(. >87-. I'id you conjiidor that was n iiropei" way to niauM;,'!! liiMik>? — I fou'il not do anytliin<^ dsr, as lar ax I wa^ coiicim iicil, Hs~:i. hid Mill foii>idc'r that was a ]»io|ii!r way to inanaijc a m-i >,'. h'»okMi|)|io>o it foil Kl liavo licoii maiia^cvl ditrmi'iit Iv. TIktc coiild havi- Itc'oii. I Mi|i|io>-t'. a rciiuisilion hook, and had soinr rucur,] ihal way. S874. Yoii clo not mean to say t hat a roiiiiisition liook is iic(e-N:ii\ at all for a sf i of hooks. .Siipposinii; a inert hant choose-^ lo i^'ivc hikmI. willioijt any ri.M|iiisitiini to Mr. Xixoii, would it not slill Im.> proper ti ro<')id the fact that llio tnoicluint had ik'livi'red soinnLj-oods to ymi. an ( thai Some aee »iinl is iiidelitoil to hirn lor these ^oods? — Vos. 8.>7r». 1 ani askiiiLT yoii if that war> over recorded? — No. Nixnii went .'iiiii S.^T''. Why Hot? A I'eij iiisi t ion when il was handeil to .Mi'. SIkou he would take and huy ihe-^e i^oods. I had no kiiowled^^i wju'ie In' iiiii-uiiiij 111'- was liiiviiii' thoin. 'I'he first intimation 1 had of it was when tin biMiKlit til.' '.;iHio you understand thai it is pro|)or lo make entries in th l(du'< r 111 any.as.- |e,l.roi- in anv ease tor the first tiini^ ? — No. for the lust tlino. '^ 8880. The entry then is drawn from some other hook which ye call an auxiliary hook? — Yes. lines iKji lyni.m- 88SI. l)o \ oil know whether all tlio entries in your ledger, as bor It all till' ell- . • . 1 ,. •!• I 1 ., I 1 tries if. i\is i.ti^'er matter ot oractice. were drawn lioni some aii:ciiiar\ book ( — I do ui Wen.' drawn from otlliT soiirecs. emenilter now, isiialto r.'coid ill 8882. Do you rccoi'd, or is it usual in a sot of books to rerorJ, in tl.i ledtrer the source trom which the entry was drawn bv a note on tin lednor the soiirei- whence en try drawn. 1 aire ? — Y'jj May bo iii.siaiiees 888.-5. Do voti know whethoi- that was a practieo of vours in this whore this n(it, ;et Inn.' in hi.<» books, of books ? — I do not romombor. There may bo instances of it iiMt beinir done. 550 CONKLIN "■111 ry Ins ln'cn ilru vvii. ■liii«i«'r-H*iil- -S>'|. liOiik !it \niii- U'di-cr A Jindsiiy wlit'llior llitit u;i> tlin in-iicticc. nlMWiil^i'iniu'* ,,itlii>i' |i;ii ti:illy oi- ill wliolf ? — 'Plicri' :iro i-iiti ici lici-c ti>r wliicli llioic ;, III! roloirin'c. SSS.». I liliil tlu' iiuiiilicrs (A sojiic clicqilrs iii!ill()()k-t, t'nun wliicli you di-cw v'oiir iiifiinnalion. or to iii>t'i-l ''Ikiwihk th. ii y li sooiiis to liu oiiiitlod luM'c »'\('i'|il In way o| c'lii'i|iirs. sSSti. Arc ill*'. im!nl»«;r."' of tlioso cIkviuos lo lie f.niiid in any otlin- Ixiok except I Ih' Itooiv wliit'li \um call your casli-book, as far as yon know; in other words, does not this i-i'f'orcticc point only ii> the h lok \diiili yon call yonr (•a>h-booU ? — That i> all, I think, oxcopt tin' .stuh 111' ciiiintorfoil of ihu choipu'-liiiuk. 88S7. Tlion thost" accounts iti tho li»dn;('r. where? no nninher nl the (lienuc is 1,'ivon, would ho taken from .-orne hiiok which is not reii-rrcd III ill tlic ledj^er itself; is that rii^ht ? — Yes. 838S. ('an yoi' lell ine from what hook they were. a.-> a niatlei' o|' lad, taken ; — the entries all throiit;,h this ledixer which ai-e not acconi- iiaiiit'd l>y cheiiiie miinbers — can you tell nio irom what hook llu-y woie taken / — Tlioy must have hoon from the journal. SSSD. Ho von know how vou can tind out trnm this leij^er what Niitiur imi.'.' mn- |,.irliiui of the Journal they wore taken from ' Von rannul tell tiiat |I|',.,',V|'„|',''|""'' willidiit the iiumher, without the paij.e or lulio, and that does not a|i]u':ir ? — So ; it does not appear. SSIK). Then the only way to verify those nceoiints. iC 1 have i-orrecil}- liiiilcrstiiod your explanation, is to look fhrouijh the dilfertMit paj,e.» ni' iho iiu.xiliary hook whi(di you call }'our Journal V -The date is the only iliiii^' which mi^ht indicate it. ^■^i'l. After explainini:^ the souices from which yi>ii think it is rii^'ht iiiiiraw the entries in the lodger, will you toll mo wiiut,in your opinion, imi,'ht to be done with all the entries which appear in t lie (lay book, or iiiiiniiil, as you call it ? — The folio of the ledgiM' should bo indicated, aiiil they should be carried into the ledi^er. 8802. Now, what did you call that oi-iginal book; did \ m (all il a ilay-hook or a Journal, from . which entries were cai'ried into the I'difor ? — It may lie a diy-hook or a Joiirtnd. ^81*3. In this ease what was it called ? — A (hav-l)ook. \r>. ^S;)t. Is da\'-booIv A the book to which \-ou allude in this case ? — i' ♦'. ■ \>: •is SSil."). Look at the day-book and see if you follow the ))ractice which 01,1 not cuny aii yoii >ay was the riffht one, of curr\inu: entries into the loilucer; in tii';''i"i<''«i»'ii'.v- 'itiier words, have von carried all the ontne« 111 this da\--book into the lodger ?— Xo. SSDC. Will you explain why you did not follow the practice which yoii s:iy was the right one ? — There are some of these entries 1 see ivhich ai'e curried into the caslid)()ok. 881)7.^ Are they all carried either into the cash-book or into the it'jger ;' — I presume they are. .^^jL,^Mi»^m*A- IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) I 1.0 I.I IIIM 112.5 ■ : '- IIIM '^ 2.0 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 < 6" — ► Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 873-4503 % (p., i/.x \ V <^ 0: CONKLIN 560 ■ IIIISt4'l'-UII<|- l*«ir\<'.V iio)«k-ii<'C|)iii^. S'-'!).-^. liOok !i( i);ii!:o 20 ;i'i'l rail an item nl'S-^O,') dopDsiLt. I (o the (i.>- ci'C'dit of lli'.i i'aynKi^loi" of liio (Jjuiailitin Piicilic ilailway, in ilie M Jler I n (■>.?!." positc'l to crcillt or Nlxoii In l)iiii" k. chants 15;uik. and toll nio wliothei' that wan carried into any e-a-l, I Tlii>^ item not caii-lc'il into auy <'!i8li book or Ictljior. t)i' an V lcd";or ? — Tiierc is no i'olio to indicate it 8811'.). Will yoii .s'.iy, as a matl(3f of'fact, wliclliof it was cui'fi.'.l aiiv ca>li-lioolv oi'imv Ieilli-book A. the casli-book wl .■M.-'i-!,. IcepL at thiiL time now in yi)ai' hands ?--Yes ; this is the which Iccjit the accounts of the cash witli the Itaids. Tliui you alhido lo there passed to I ho credit of the llcceivei-(iciieiMl leceipt was sent to OlLawti, and ofcoui'so thoy have the ticcou-i; I piesunie. lllNi li Villi he in an I ilu. h/iv. 81100. Was it carried into any cash-ltoolc or any lcd;^oi- ? — Xn; I ,l( not see it liero. 8901. Why did you not adopt tlie pcactice which you '•iiii>idi light one? — This cash-book which J kept, was merely t ;no )i" \..\", Ijiak account. 81)02. Have you no i-eferencos connected with that itiMii \n >ho.v it was not carried to any account ? — Xo. 890.]. Then why do 3-011 say it was dejiosited to the cicdil of J?occiver-Generai ; do j'ou remember the fact at tliis moniont ?— X. 8904. Then why do you say so ? — The only thino- is, I ^a\v itciiici^ here as being deposited to the credit of the Rocciver-Gcneral. 8905. IMease read the entry as you see it ?— " Depo.^it U) cic lit 1'; :i:il DO master of C.P.JJ. in Merchants 13anl 890(». ]s that deposited to the credit of the Receiver (I one I misunderstnod that. ral 8907. Now read that entry and understand it. Do you say tlitu that vv;ts carried into any bool; in your set of books ? — No; 1 do nut liiiili It i> iiiiuot c^xphiin. 8908. Can you toll me why ? — I do not know how it wa- Itf'in $9i!.'^l not <'iirrlcil Into any • look. :.909. Look at the next p!»j:;e but one, 22. Loolc at a siiiiilar i t^'iii III u\- one 'I. \'i:ii' §02. .')0 ; can you tell mo whether that was ctirried out into a set ot bo()i concnrncd. 8912. Is that item in any other book ? — No. 891.">. I")o you mean that these books show the transacli. 11s w.ili the exception of these two items that L htive jiointed out? — I do Hit know; J could not tell without goin^i^ over the books. IIP 561 CONKLIN Mxoii*)* Pay- ■iiaMtfr-niifl- <\)\4. Bnt now, witli the book bcfoi-o you, ilo 3-011 say that all those Book-*k?'«-ii7ii>|.'* ;i;ii].";iclionss or iioarly uli are recorded in your set of bjokrt properly ? ..[ think so. . I 1 1. ii /2 1. 1 i 11 1 i I 11 No Item on rtrst -;)!'). Look at (ho ni-st paj^o and tell us on what page of your ledger i)aKoor(tn,v-ii,,ot ;ii,i.e;iie recorded ? — There is no iteni there tor the ledger. 'led-'ei^ ''"'' S:ll6. Look a', the next. Did 1 not undei-.-tand you to say tiiat all ;j)o cnlrioH in this liook ought to be transferred to the ledger ?— Of toui'so I did not look at these entries, ■«1I17. Then when you said '• all " you did not mean all ? — Of course tiuso are only mere memoranda. i')\S. Do you ascertain now that 3'our da^'^-bonk, besides keeping oiiti'ies which ought to foi'm a portion of all day-books, contains raenio- ,.„,,J^?_Ye9 ; the same as all day-books. s310. Would any da^'-book contain an3'thing more than the entr3'^ to Ai tadobit or credit account 7 — The da3^djouk ought to show the history ot'all transactions. A person nia3' have occasion to put down a merao- nuulum indicating something with no amount. 8920. Then do I understand you to say that all the entries in this hwk, which refer to some particular amount, are carried forward to \m- ledger ? — No; we have ju-^t discovered one or two entries here. SI12I. AH but these two? — I do not know without looking. ^022. There is another entr3' on page 4: "deceived from James McKa3'^ itomori5,ii3 >."t,U2; " does that apDear in anj' of 3-our book?!? Is there not another McKay.'"^" ,>ii-botik? — 1 can remember no Dominion casb-book that we had. SD23. Do 3'ou remember what books are kept ? — I am not aware of ;iny other cash-boolc. ''i'24. Is there any reference to an3' other cash book there? — No. •^ILT). Then what is 3-our opinion ofthat entry ? — It should have gone ii.:u the cash-book. ''22t). What is 3-our oi)inion of what happened it? — There is no Nocntry toiiuii- i.n'iy to indicate it. „f this sum. ■<^21. Therefore, what is your opinion ? — That it has not gone into ahv other book. 81)28. On page 9 tliere is an entry: "Received from the Boundary $4,50 received from ,• ..''='. , rti- I ■» J ii i o A"- Bourulary Coiu- vminiSSluneiS, nine horses, $lo^' ; «o you see thai entry r — Yes. niLssioners. S029, Does it appear in anv other of your books ? — There is nothing t" indicate it. ?930. What is 3-our opinion upon the subject, a^ to its entry in an}'- Nothing to indi- other of your set of boolcs ? -There is nothing to indicate that it is wascHrrNedlnto"* I (anied into an}- other book. any othoi book. 8931. Seeing what 3-ou do, and iiaving the intolligonce that you liiu'c, what is your opinion about that item ? — That it has not been tarried to any other book. 8932. April 30th, an entr3- of $5.42 lias not been carried to any item ^r,A\ other book ?— Yes; that would be in the cheque-book. 8933. That is a portion of it? — I presume that the amount is in the caeii-book in cheque 35. 36 CONKLIN 662 Nixon's Pay- jnu«t«r-Hr:d- Piirv«'yorslil|» Kuok-kf«-piiiK- i;i:i^ 89H4. First of all you ai'o charging liim with money. I ,1^, underHtimd what cheque- l)Oolc you can allude to. He bought luu j you, did ho not, by that entry ? — Yes. S'X\'i. Will that appear in your cahh-liook, that ho got hay?--] bo uii.stakcn— yc:J, the hay was got from me. I'liat is an cnor ii, entry. S9u6. On ])age 10, I find an entry in which an amount is n.i " By the Honourable Jamos McKay, carts" — does tluit appeai' in v,,,! set of books? — That will appear, but atill there is nothinc t indicate that it does. It will appear in the invoice-book audi ehcnae Kli'i vo:il 8937. Ih the invoice-book'part of the regular set of books?— Yi. 8938. Do you mean that this can bo ascertained by looking at invoice-book ? — Yes. 8930. Has it been carried forward to your ledger, which you . would be a proper book in which to have this entry ? — There is uutli! to indicate it there. 8010. These arc all the enti'ies in which the amounts are namd, "Witness liiid.s in lli.S (>|>illl()Il thRt i\ u • ■ r-illi iiiJi-r •! ontricswiiifbiiad the beginning of the book, on the tirst four pages : you said some ref'^ronce toil jjivi'' tlciilar amount * . » i ■ , • - . would ni)poar in appear in the ledger ; now what is your oi)inion on that siibic ledger to liavo r.,. ,...'- . .i been mistaken. Cannot say wliothor Nixon's account of items $ni)-> and $9'J.f)0 was corrcft. ago that all entries which had refei'cnce to a particular amoinit appear in the ledger ; now They should have gone in. soil. But did they go in ?— No. 8:'42. Mr. Nixon, in giving his evidence, stated that it V.I Hi cf,' was ). iiiil impression that these amounts — for instance, on page -0, of 850i on page 22, ol $!)2.50 — were, as a matter of fact, ])asse 1 to his privati credit in tiio bank, and that he afterwards dealt with them in uccouiitinJ lor them to the Government ; do you know, as a matter of fact, lookiij at these entries, whether that is correct or not? — No : 1 cannot, 8013, Can you not say, having writlen these books and having ma these entries, what facts justify the entries ? — t would infer from then that they passed to his credit in the bank. Books do not 8044. Now, having liad charge of these books for some time, ai show til o amount i • i i j ^ ^i '■ . i i • ^ i . placed to Nixon'* having looked at them today, can you explain to me how wo can tin private account out from the books, or from auA' evidence, the amount of moMOVs whici were so placed to Mr. JNixon s private account in the banks f— Lxd^p by his report to Ottawa, in the letter-book. 8945. Was there any other record made from time to time?J'o instance: supposing Mr. Nixon should accidentally make amislake,aiiJ not put all that he got in his statement, is there no way of ascertainini from these books tliat such a mhitake was made ? — By going over ihl books there would be 8946. That would be necessary would it? — Y'es. 8941. There was no account kept by you of the whole transactional ~I do not remember. 1 do not think it. I do not remember, llioiii; there might have been. I thought there was another casli-book entoring receipts of cash. Of course that cash-book only shows thj bank account. 563 CONKLir« lunster'AiKl' l*itrve,v«trMlii|» Iluok-kei'|lliii{. No system lo record such triin?« iictlons lu any out" place. nooks not koj)t, in !i I'orrcct way. Reasons Ibr this. 80-t''?. Wlieii you .siv tliat this matter can be uscortaiiied by f<<»iii^' through the books, do you moan by lookiiii^ over ouch otitiy in theduy- [iooi{ to see if such an onti-y appears? — That is the only way now. SOlt). But no system was adoptel to record tho.se entries in any other plitce? — Xo ; except by tliu iettei'-book. SD.'iO. That was noL a system to record it? — No. T also sent a report i.ii('li month, or quarterly, showing the amounts of cash received, and I'ldiTi wliJit source. 8!i.'>l. Whcie would yi)ii i^et that from? — Frrmi the day-book. You iiiialit L,'et it from the duy-buok. J t was not collected together in any accomit in the day-book. 8!tr)2. Then it would be by turning over all the dilterent pages of ihc (hiy-book that you would get the data for that statement? — That would be ihe only way. <1I53. Is that a correct way of keeping track of tiio tran.>1.28, with the words Bank Account. 1 suppose you are of opinion that an entry of that kind to the credit of one account should have a corro-i- pyuding debit to some account of the same amount. Is that what you understood by single entry, or any entry of any kind of system in tl)e world ? — No; it would not be by single entry. 8956. Can you by single entry make charges against a man without having a corresponding entryj can you by any system of book-keep- ing in the world get them out even ? — They are not even in single entry. In single entry of course you may have a debit or credit entiy without any corresponding account; that is to any ledger account. S!l.')7. According to the system which you say you adopted, should Cannot explain, thatcredit of $2,yt)l.28 have a debit to some account, or be in the shajie of a debit to some account ? — 1 do not understand that amount either. If I had an opportunity' of looking over it, I could be able to explain it at a future time. I do not know; but that must have been deposited by John Brown. This is his account as sub-agent. 8958. That entry was made by you to balance that account, was it • not?— I do not understand why it was made. 8959, Was it made b}' you? — Yes. 89()0. Can you explain the basis of that entry? What would Bank Account mean, for instance? Do you think that meant that it went to your credit in the bank account, in the bank in which you were deal- ing? — I cannot remember now why that entry was made. It 1 had time lo look over it I am satisfied J could explain it all right. ' .lolin Hrown'.s account srii(]e statements of stores lor the (ioverninent, from a staiement made by John Parr, Poes nf)t know from wliat source or iiow Parr made up tills statement 81HJ1. Did 1 concctly iindei'stiiiid 3^011 to say lliat the reason fop ,, ,, making those entries, according to the system which yon utidci-stathl to be c jrrcet, was that you had not time to make them ? — Vos ; atid uKm 1 was under the imprcs-ion that I had merely to keej) a ctisii-ljook ;iii,| keej) an account of the expenses. 89(12. Did you think it would be more proper toi- you to in;i| i,^- (hiy, on an average, you were called upon to make in those books ?_[ have no^ Of c)urseit was not so miudi the entries in the hooks ;i< checking over the supply accounts as they jaine in ; there w.is u gieiit deid in tliat, I know. 8964. Do you remember anything about a store-book being kept liv John Parr? — I believe he did keep u store book. ^965. Did that come under your notice or supervi>ion in any way'— No. 896G. Do you remember whether you made up statements to be .H'lit to the Government from time to time, to show what amount of store-; belonging to the Pacific liUilvvay remained in store?— Vos; 1 lemi'm- bor there were statements made up to that effect. 8.IG7. Do you remember making them? — 1 i-emember malviiiii ap ^hese statements. 8968. Can j'ou ^ay from what material you made up those state ments ? — 1 made them up from John Pan-'s account, I think, lie ivn. dered me an account of what stores were in the warehouse. I do iiit see how else I could have got it. 8969. Do you remember whether he purported or proposed to render you an account of the stores that were actually there, or of the .stons which his books showed ought to be there? — I \^as under the improv sion that it was what was actually there; I do not remember from what source or how he made it up, but L remember there were s^uch reports made up and sent. 8970. But as to the foundation of this statement, you do not remem- ber how he made it up ? — I cannot speak from actual knowledge. 8971. Do you remember whether he represented to you that th:u statement showed the actual quantities in the store, or quantities which his books showed ought to have been in the store ?—l cannot exactly I'cmember. ■I of)') NIXON not romera- 'ou that th;U Tiio.MAS Nixun's cxainiiia'.ion coiitimiod : /)'// (Ue Chair. •ran: — rll'I^. IVitnrss: — f produce the letter-lM)C)k T leferrcd to in my pre' vi,)iis examiiialioii, in whieh I tind the following: — F. Bu.u-N, F]£(|., " Sfcretaiy of I'lililic AVorks. ■I Sir, —In reply to yo'irs of the 29 h uliimo, asking infoimntion respecting nionpy jfl'Ojitfd iu tin; bank lo the account of the Caniidiaa Pacific i!ail\vtiy,l have the hoiioiir •.cienelosi: a duplicate statement of the details of ihe same. I he ori^tinal was stnl ;i,mt days ago lo Mr. C. H. O. Psliner, along with the statement i.f ihe expenditure ;p to the 30ih June. A3 the fiscal year ended on the 30th June, I deemed it a proper foui-ie to place to the credit of tl.e Government all the moneys then in my jjosscssion. Indeed, I much prefer not to have an}' moneys placed to my private credit, and there- fore, as tar as possible, I pay all accounts by uffii.'ial cheque. Tl:e horse sold was one ailich bud got kicked and which belongel to the C. P. R., having been, along wiih tihers, purchased for the parties going westward. The other uems will, 1 tiii:.k, fijily explain themselves." Accompany in<:; that was tho detailed Hti\teraent to wiiich I have rd'eiTcd. J saw it, and the lio) so is mentioned in it. ^972. Did you J'ender, from time to time, Ktatemenls to the D.'part- niciit showing what you con.siderod to bo the amounts which you had received on the part of tho Government, and tho amounts whieh ycMi liiul transmitted or deposited lo the credit of the lieceiver-denerai ? — 1 always sent a detailed statcinont with the monc_> s wliicli 1 had deposited 10 tiio credit of the Receiver-General. That was never omitted — tho ilotailed statement was never omitted. S973. Have you heard tho evidence of Mi. Conklin to-day? — I ditl. 8074. lie has led us to understand that tho books, as kept by him, lio not afford the moans of ascertaining whether those statements which you sent from time to time were actual!}' correct —that is, from a lollected account ; but that the only means of ascertaining what did come to your private control is by turning over tho ditferent pages of the original books, which he calls day-books, and collecting them together again : do you know whether he is correct or not in that ixpliiiiation ? — I apprehend he is correct. S975. Do you think that all the moneys which you did receive from ;:i:yf*ourco on account of tho Pacific Railway, will be found o'ltored in ii,viiiHspcctiiiK iiioncys deposited on accniini of Canadian I'ailtl.- Hallway. .\hvav< sent de- tails ol IllOlll'.N s deposited lo en (litorReciMver- tfeiK'i'al. runkllii'.silescrip- tion ol ilio etiar- a(!t('r of tlic l)ook- koopinu correct. Sclieiiiilr. Of aiiioont.s pluocd toii'cillt of Kt'ceiver- ueucral Prn<'iiriii4( Kup|ili<.-H> System of pro- curing supplies NIXON 566 Paymaatcr- veyoMhlp— ProciiriiiK NiipiiIleH. Supplies soine- tlinuH 8(>U(!>it for l).v public lender sometlmeB by |)rlvate contract. Several tenders for freli;htintf ; for the freif^li ting to North-west Angle made a yearly contract at ■2 cts. per lb. I'rlncipnl con- Lvractors. Kyjn's t.MKlcr, went from one morcliant's store to another, and found who was iho lowest and gave them the contract. 8980. So that it would be sometimes by private negotiations, arni sometimes by public competition ? — Yes ; there was no other way oi doing it, on account of the want of time sometimes. 8i)31. "Who wore the principal persons who furnishoJ supplios in that way, in the town ? — Bannatyne, liiggins k Young, Peter Suther- land, the Hudson Bay Co., ani W. L. Lyon. 8i)8?. With whom were the negotiations carrieJ on ; in matters cm- nectod with the Hudson Hay Co , for irstnncc ? — With John McTavish or the manager, Mr. Newman ; ho is living at Portage la Prairie. 8983. When the goods wore furnished after public competition, diil you keep a record of the tenders? — [ think so. I thinic you will iin.l the tenders themselves among the papers ; they should be. 8J84. Were there generally many competitors? — No. 8985. When you asked for tenders, did you generally advorii.si; in some paper ? — Yes. 8986. You sometimes communicated the intimation by private com- municatiou ?— Yes ; when time was not allowed me I had to do it in that way. 8987. In regard to other matters besides supplies, you had to en Niid-I*iir> Vf>'arHlii|i — Bll>lii{{ lloixeN. 'i« Wliat AlloM ny's Ixx.kK \V(ltll(t Dhow. Thinks Alloway compared record lie had kept witli thai In wllneHK's custody In orcU'r 1o arrive at. averafe'o. Thinks he did not do this. (haraetPf of liorses piiK'ha.scd; Btout Indian poniesi, Biiyiiiff Car(M. Kind of cnrls botiglit. ^ouirlit carls from JVlloway. 9011. In tliiit to be had now ? — No; I liad it from h'm books. j It0]2. Aio you HUfo of that? — I am very positive of it, Sir; m(i.,ii\.| these horKCs, not all, c)f courso, were bought from Freneh liiiH-l)io(.,), ij am alituiinf; particularly to the heavy cliaiight, which compiised ;||,J great number. | 9013. AVhat would hifs IiooIch nhow ? — The person from wlioni Ion .1,J and the price paid, and the de!scrij)tioii of the horso : ba}', or gra\,~oi-j roan ; maro, horse, or gelding — as the cjiho niay be. I fl014. Why did j'oii dei)end uj)0ii bin account of it ? Why did you „,,J keep a rocoid of it yourself, having taken pail in the negotiations?— [I employed him to buy the liorecs, an J I knew (he price — ho could nitj cheat me. | 9015. 1 am asking whether you kept any record, or whotlier vuij had to d( j)end entiiely u[)on hits record ? — 1 presume I dependcMl, n-tniJ at« the writing itself is concerned, upon bin record ; but when tli(iliorNJ were purchased, Ihey were tinned at once into what we inllel ilij (roveinnr.ent stable as eacli purchase was made. I 901(!. W'heie wjis the (Jovernment stable ?— Opposite to us. li v,;,sl rented from the Uonouiablo James McKay. J mean opposito touJ office. I 9017. And ditl lie not comjtaio with you the recoid that he had kii'l with the ro(oid that you had kcj)t anil in your own custody, in ori|,ij to ascertain that ibo average was :i ]iro])er one ? — I do not know Ijin L.J did. 9018. Could he have dono^so, if you kept no record ? — No. I 9019. Then why do you say that ho did ? — 1 think not. I 9020. Did you know the names of the parties yourself?— 1 did 'ii,J myself know the names of tlie parties; they were mostly Fien(li,!iiillj could not speak French, but lie could. I 9021. Of what chaiacter was the majority of the horses puiclmscd 'I — '^''bey weio stout Indian poviies, tit for cart, to travel two or thuoj thousand miles. Those pet sons were going out to Edmonton— th'iM-j stirvej'ort- — and tliey wanted gf od native hcrsos, I 9022. What sort of carts did you buy on (hat occasion ? — The comiu nl native cart— what is called bushed and banded cartf^ — and boxes jiui ii)| tho wheels. The natives do not use iron in their carts. I 9023. What extra cost would that bushing and bandin;^ make?— I Fiom $2.50 to §3 ; 1 forget. I 9024. Do you remembei- jdiout the value of tlie carts that ym boiinlitj on that occasion, without the bushing and banding? — I do not I'erm'in- j ber — I think about §15 to 816. 1 am speaking entirely from moinoiv.j We had to have good carts; 1 could have got cheaper cart.-*, bin [| would not have ihera. I 9025. Do you remember from whom you bought those carts in ti.^J first instance?-! think from Alloway, he had a very largo numlo!.! 9026. Was he dealing in carts ?— Yes ; ho was dealing in carts, anJ j had scores of them at that time. I 9027. He did not buy them specially for your order? — No; Ithiiik-I not. I 669 NIXON dinir make'/— I Paymnater- uii«l-Fura 0028. Wore the carls lower or lii-^'Iior in price Ihon than now ?— I ih,yH"K''c«r7'<. think tlioy were liiijhor, but I do not know ; latterly, of courHO, I havo not pnitl miicli attention to thorn. I think cartH are not very much (heaper now (hoiii^h. The National Policy hardly comes into play there, and of course they are cheaper. — [10-9. Look at an account of Alloway's of Jiino 27th, 1877, and nay what the price was you paid for carts? — 810.50. 1)030. What did tliat include ? — Those carts that were bushed and lio.-it |H'r cint, landed. It says so here: '^Sixteen bushed and banded carts tor Mr. oMfiu^'ivH-llxil-I; i.ucas' party, at 319-50, and sixteen extra axles, at $ I. r)0, and sixteen ';'";•'• *-•■"'•"'">■ , it CON I'l • cart covers. 90.51 . How much for tlio covers ?— 82.50 eacli. . Koiii' i-art liiirsiC'S, 1I0')2. What 18 next .'^ — ''rour cart horses, S-K^O ; two harness hoj-sos *iiiii; two inr f„r buck boards, $280; two saddle hor.-i-s, 82U0 ; one ditto for Mr. u\!;;'V;Ir'^adViil'*' ' Marcus Smith, 8200." ^i^m ; one r..,- ' 'MV.^ Now, what would be the price of that cart and cover, without tin- axle? — $2,':$. 50 altogether — that would be bushed and banded, n>lo and cover. ft0:i4. That is witliout the harness, I suppose? — Ves. (103"). What do j'ou make out the bushing and banding and axle to bo wortli? — I do not know exactly' about the bushing and banding: from Jii.riO to g.'i, it might be more ; the axle is 81. 50 and the cover 82.50 ; that would leave the value of the cart and covoi', without the harness, SIC. 50. !)03G. i'^xcuse me. Look again? — I thoughl you asked mo what '.vtiiild 1)0 the value of the cart and cover. !)087. I am asking you what you make out to bo the value of the liihhing and banding, and axle ? — 85. IHl.'iS. That would be 83.50 for the bushing and banding, and only 81.;")0 for the axle ? — Yes; I may be a little high for the bushing and I'iinding, or a little lower. !i03[). Then vdiat would }'ou make out the value to bo of a cart ami cover, without tho harness, with the boxing and banding and axles liiken otl ? — You mean with the bushing and banding and axle taken I'OIO. Yes?— 817. :i041. Please calculate again ?— 1 take $5 from 823.50, leaving $18.50. 9042. Now is that your idea of tho value of a cart and a cover, with- vaiuooicart. out the bushing ard banding or axle?~No ; it is too high. That is tho carts would not cost 818.50 without those. 9043. But is not that tho price that Alloway got? — No. 1 do Dot sec that is, nor do you see it, Mr. Chairman. 818.50 ! Tho prices I gave him for those carts was 816, according to that account. Don't try to make mo out giving him 818.50. That is what you are doing, Mr. Chairman. The axles are there. As extra good carts wo did not I'uy them . 9044. I am asking you this question: what you gave Alloway for the cart and cover? and I have asked you over and over again, and you |i •. MIXON 570 ■*«ymaMtcr- niiandlnK, $18.")(). May have bout;! it ■(■artsol'tlio same kind hu-liidln;^ MarnesH for h much lens .sum. FIveoarls wUh ■fovers and $17..j(). Kntry wrong ; Jiiust be wi'ontr, have mtulo Hvo or t*ix culciilutionrt, ouch of them wi'on<^? — I^ccause you l)ut me out; now if you ask me, I will answoi* it. 9045. Let mo know, according to thin paper, which you may take in your hand, tho pri(^o which you paid Alloway for the cart and cdvur, without e.stimaliii^ tho value of tho bu.shin/^ and bandiny, or axlo ?— 1 BUpposo I gave Lim — I cannot toll oxa'.tly. JK)46. You may have tho paper and u pencil to Q^nvo it up?— That will not Mupply mo. I can make the caiciilalion with any mun. Inn this will not supply mo with tho price. 9047. if not, why not? — I do not understand what you want to got from mo now ? 9048. I am asking you plainly enough for you to answer? — $19.51) 9049. Now add tho pi-ice of tho cover to that? — Yos ; it makes 822 for tho cart bushed and banded and cover. 90r)0. I wish you to add to that tho pj-ico of tho axlo ? — Tho axlo ii $1.50, that is 823.00 total. Now, what do you wish mo to do? !H)f)l. T wish you now to make up what you consider to bo tlu! value of the bushing and tho banding and tho axlo ? — I have done that. 9052. \Yhat do you tind tho price to bo of that cart and cover, without bushing, banding, or axlo? — $18,50. 9053. Did yo.i consider that to bo a fair price? — 1 did, or wouid noi have paid it to Alloway, or any man under hoavon. 9054. Did you over buy carts of that kind, including harness, lor a much loss piico than that? — 1 do not romoml r, perhaps I did, 9055. I have already asked you about tho diffcronco between iho price at that time and later. Can you toll mo now whether they wlto much lower or much higher?—! cannot tell you. 905G. Do you romombor tho character of those carts, whether thoy wore bettor than usual ?— [ cannot tell you ; they wore su])po.sod to Im good ; they had to go a long distance. 9057. Do you romombor tho ordinary price of hobbles at any time? — No; 1 do not. I remember nothing about thorn. 9058. Look at requisition No. 12, in your requisition book. and say whether ,you bought any carts to go a long distance, ami requiring to bo well made, for tho purpose of tho Pacific Jlaihvay ?— Yes: " Five carts withcovei-s and harness'' — I see that hero — " le»s two from Divisions N and P." 9059. \Yiii 3-on toll mo what those carts cost you with the cover iunl harness? — 1 can from this book. It says hero, $47.50. 90GO. Would that be for five carts? — No; it might be for throe. 9061. Do you think it was for throe? — I do not know ; I never bought a cart for that price. I do know that I never bought a cart tor $9. I swear that positively, and re-swear it a thousand times; thcre- foie tho entry is wrong. It must be wrong. 9062. Do you know whoso entry it is? — No; I do not. I do not know whose the figures are. The writing is Mr. Conklin's, but I pre- sume there will bo an account. I do not remember buying carts and 671 NIXON CH)ver ana PMyniBMter- niid-Piii'- Lnt'SH for that pike. It is only u liltlo ovor an avoruge of $9 each uiVyui'iTcalTii. |.,|.tt(iirt and harnosH and cover. j(;3. Will you look at your roquiHition No. 9, and soo if you Fin(^oii carts wiiii |i,ut.'ht any cnrtH with covors and harness complete ? — Yes ; Hfloen cai Ih cm' "rtTrom'pV'i.-. Ijtii harness *k1 covers complete. (•'^cu (h(7.">.) 30(U. What did they cost ?—S 142.50. I>»2.i.-,. lOii,'). Would that bo an average of somewhere between $9 and $10 ? Av.MaKc iiotw.on ,1, would appear so. ijiiumi rio. [iOiIG. And these would include more than those carts which you laliieut $18.50 ? — I do not know. Tho.->e would be neither busliod nor Itifi'led. rOiM, Hut I understood you to arrive at a price Avithout bushing or IliHilinf; V — No; 1 did not know anything about it. I know I acttJ Liestly for the (loverntnent. I would like to look that up. I do no) iMnembcr ever buying carts from Stalker tSc Carswell. 1 do not thinic iJiil. Hi6S. But these are entries which ajipoar in your books, are thov :?-Ycs. iiii;9. Thoy naturnl'v give the impression that you did ? — Yes; they iMiiually give the impression that I did buy the carts. ;^n;0. l>o vou say that you know noliiingabout the price of hobble? ? K'ik.ws noiiiiinr Y ■ "^ •' '^ ^ ilhoiil the prlci- or --^•)' hoblilcs. ;hj"1. Did you never bargain for any ? — Yes; but I do not know the Ijrirenow, 1 bought nearly a 81,000,000 wortli of goods, and it is not l;i>on!ible that 1 should remember the price of everything I bought. !'ii(2. ] am not pressing you to do so, but I want to show j'ou some Hoi.bics:.-, cts. |.uries. h- you look at the entry of July 17th, ISTu, you will find "'"'*'•""'•'"•''■ iolililes charged ; can you say from whom j'ou bought these hobbles, IJilthe price you gave ? — SI each and 75 cts. each, it would appear. !I073. Look at the entry of the 27th A])ril, 1S75, and see if you Hii;ht some hobbles, and from whom, and at what pi-ice ? — Yes ; 1 did |iw twelve hobbles, $12 — $1 each. WTl. From whom? — From Alderman Wright. What is entered 'nniondstiiat. Ilero as live carts with covers and harness is the jjrice of the harness lire ""on"! '^""'' jiiJ covers oiily. It should have been covers and harness for five c:irts. |lIr,Conklin has written the word " carts," and it should have been 'tivecart luu'uesses and covers." I1O75. Then the word with should have been loft out 'ilso ? — Yos. •'076', Then you say the entry on requisition No. 9 is aiso wi-ong as jcikrid by Ah'. Conklin ? — Yos; you are tr} ing to show^lhat 1 ^iwa |.liiii\vay a great deal more than 1 ought. '077. I am trying to ascertain what your books show. I told 3'ou "("liall take any explanation you wish to give, but we desire to con- jwtthe examination in our own way ; wo do not wish merely' to take jjoui' own general statements of correctness, because it is our duty to vestigate the matter as well as to hear your statements. Do you Kv this entry for requisitioi.' 9 is a wrong entry? — It conveys a jwiorg impression ; I bought no carts from Stalker & Carswell ; it was NIXON PnyiiiAMter- and-Pur- veyorslilp — Kiiyliig (/art*. %' Ton hul'lilf's .$10. BiiyiiiK liorscH. Sohl AUowny horses. Bi.\ ponk'js i'2M. Prlvatf l>ii8i- ■K'88 Willi Alloway* llatl no private liUBlni'ss connec- liou with Allowfiy. Neitlier tlirootly nor IncUrertly. Never endorsed bis paper. not for ciii-tH — that is what I .say ; it was only for the harness and i;,,. covers for carts. 9078. Then, of course, it i.s incorrect ? — It is incoi-roct in tliat seriv That would be easily verified by gettinj^ Carswell k Stalker's aocount- OOTl*. There is no objection, as I said before, to you ^ivin\«<-keei>iiig. Proporty return- ed Irom surveys not credited. Horses and enttle returned, not credited. Allowny's horses never kept Jit Ciovernnient *" stables. Wliat was done when storcN were returned and re-; issued. 9106. Have you any idea at present, without the papci-s, of \U nuiTiboi' of tendcfs that were submitted to you for the carfyitiy i)\'[\J mail in tiiis instance in which Alloway got it? — No; I have not. X'J IJowan had that contract and not mo. Mr. Rowan was tlie cnffinuerj and it wn-^ for the Canadian Pacific JRailway pure and t^imple. l[\ a-ilicd for tenders in my nanr.e but ho let (he contract. Tlioy wlJ asked in my name, I 8up|)Ose, because 1 had to pay, but they were miiJ niittod to Ml'. Rowan for his decision. 9107. Do you rememi)er how msny competitors there weio?—| not know at the present moment. That tender was lot by Mr. iiowaiij and he instructed ihe hiwyors to draw up the documents. 9108. Was it in reference to that contract that Mr. Ryan said he in; deposited a tender which yoa siiy you did not receive? — I picsumijM The contract Avas let next lime to some other parties. Allownv tcndei- was higher than others. 9109. Property that was returned from survo^^s and which had booi originally charged to them — what wa< the practice conconiinir tlij as to crediting those accounts? — Thoy were not credited becaiiso tli..v could not lell what tlie values would bt.>. it would be old pots auj pans, as I said before. 9110. Well, horses and cattle would be sometimes returned?— W there would be horses sometimes ; and carts and harness. 9111. As to that kind of property, would it be credited to the iKir. tieular account which had been originally charged withit?— Nn; think not. Xo value was attached to them when we entorel tlieinuij the books, and therefore they could not be credited. 9012. Therefore you think the way it was left upon the I'Mki would show a large debit against the same surveys or |)arti(nil:ir ijivij sions ? — Yes; but I was going to say that whoa sales were made thoil might credit it jit Ottawa. 9113. You wouki explain in your account to Ottawa the particular division from which tliat properly came ? — I would not like to be lul sure Jibout that fact. If my store man mixed them altogoiher, wheij we catno to sell we could not discriminate ; Jind it is not impmlial'i that he did, wlien 1 come to think the matter over, but the ciigiiieei'j took leceipts lor hoises delivered to us and for material. 9114. Do you remember whether Allowny's horses wore at anytiniJ kept in the (.Tovernment stables, or either ted or attctidod at M Government expense ? — They wore never kept at the (lovcrnmonj stable, and never kept at the (iovernmont expense. Thoy never erossel the threshold of the door. 9115. I think it sotnotimes hapfoned that stores would bo rotmnol from different parties, and then reissued again from the store-hou>e tj different parties ? — It would. 9116. Do you know if there was tmy account kept of that soit 'I transaction ? — Yes ; by the store hian. 9117. Would the reissue be charged to any otlier division ?— I thin not; but tlie rerjuisition coming from the engineer, ho would ask, savJ for two camp stoves, by way of illustration. I would say to Parrf '' Have you two camp stoves in store that are good enough tognoiit' 575 NIXON of thill sort ol If ho had, they would not be purchased; but if ho Iiad not, I would have to purchase them. 0118. Was it your practice to charge to the parties rc(iuirin<^ goods, any g'oods reissued from tlio Govornmont store ? — I do not think the iK.countant kept the account in that way. I think ho only charged them in all probability for the purchases which wore actually made, oven if he did do that. 1I119. Are wo light in supposing that Fomelinies when you sent out •applies to parties at a distance, that y<)u would instruct a sub-agent to jcII those for a higher price than the trovernmont hud paid for them ? — Yo^, that is correct ; I was so instructed from tho Department. 9J20. Do 3'ou remember whether those goods would be charged to that party at tho increased price or at the actual co.st ? — I do not rcnicniber now. There was only a reasonable percentage which I was instructed to have added on, which percontage was supposed to cover what was paid ii)r ti'ansport. 0121. It was done with Ihat object, so as to save all or ])art of the trans[»ort ? — Yes ; that is tlio way I understood it. 012-. Would those supplies be within tho control of (ho sub-agent as to the price at which they would bo sold ? — No, unless Ihey weio damaged en route; then ho would have to use his own judgment. An invoice was handed to each sub-agent showing tho prices ho ought to charge the men. 9123. Were these goods that wore so sent out to bo re sold charged to tho sub-agent in his account, together with money that was furnished 10 him ? — 1 presume so. 0124. Do you know whether it would bo charged to him at the lower or higher pi-ice ? — I could not tell you ; I do not know how that would be done. I added at the foot of the invoice so much. 0125. You see if you diarged the agent only with tho actual cost to tho Government, and he sold them at a percentage higher, ho would get the advantage of that percentagp, unless you had some mode of check- in;,' the j)rico at which he received and at which ho sold them ; thoi'e- iftro, iam asking whether there is any record in the books of it ? — You :!ee he sold to no one but tho men, and they wore sold to the men in place of wages. For instance, a man wanted a pair of boots or shoos, he got them out of the stores on tho order of the engineer, and they woic charged as wages to his account, and when he returned this would be subtracted from whatever wages was due to him. 012G. Would the sub-agont get credit for the cash which ho had paid on account of wages ? — Yes ; certainly. • 0127. Would ho got credit for the amount of wages which ho would pay to the men in tho shape of goods ?— Ho would, or the men would iin tho pay-list. The paj'-list, as formulated by the Government, had a heading for casli and for goods, and the sub-agent placed in those columns the amount of his goods for tho month and tho amount of his ta.'ih received for tho month, if any. 0121. After that oxplai .(ion, cnn you say whether, if the sub-agent paid a labourer with goods, ho would get tho credit at tho price at which the goods wore sold to tho labourer, just tho same as if ho had Paymaster* uiid Pur- veyorshlp— IloukaikfViilnit'* Goods cliargod to ))arti(!s 111, a hialicr rate f.liai» was palil lor thciii. Til ifi done to cover transport. Poos not know whctlu'r siih- ag(;nt was fharfj od ttie i-ost or selling; price of goods. Sub-aKont would «t'l credit for cast) j)aid on account of wages. »* NIXON 576 I*ayiiia8ti-r> nu«l-Piir' voyorslilp— Bouk'kcfiiiiiK. r'rsictlcetocliargo siib-nKOiit with selling price of goods. Sub agent coulil not make i)iof1t. paid that amount in money? — Cortainly. The Hub-agent wouM ivi crcilit for the price at which ho had sold the goods. 9129. Would ho be charged with the price at which he was to sell the goody ? — Yes. 9130. Would he bo chained with the gooJd at tho selling price ?— Yo-;. 91.>1. Before you were not sure about that; now, after this explaii.i. tion, do you say that the practice was to charge the subagont wiih th.j celling pj'ice of the goods? — That was tho general practice. 01.32. Because it is phiin that if that were not done he woul(| in- getting the profit ? — lie could not make a profit ; it was not pos-^ilile. 913.3. Why not? — Because when ho came back with his account lif brought us the goods which wore not sold, if any there wei-e, aii-l wo took Uiat from tho amount of his invo.co and then looked into iho amounts he sold to the men. 9134. It is upon those amounts that he sold to the men, I am makiiiir the enquiry; *he rest does not affect the question. As to the atnoiuib which ho sold the men, if he was not charged the selling price, o* coiu>o he made that profit? — He could not make it. 9135. He could if he was only charged with the buying price: \m instance, if you sent to the sub-agent goods which cost ^500, and ynj told him to soil those goods at an advance of 10 per cent., and he would soil them and return that ho had paid wages to the extent of 8550 by goods, he would be making a prorit of $50 ; but if they wi-ie charged to him at the $550, then he would make no profit. 1 am -Asluui: which was monthly sheet came in, a pair of boots would be charged to a cortaiii man, but there would be so much wages duo him for the month, an.] he got so much less wages. Wo knew what the sub-agent sold ovoiv article for and we knew what to charge them at, and as t)ie sub-aj^oiit did not receive money for those goods under any circumstance— 1 nuan when sold to the men, and he was not allowed to sell other tliaii to ihi,- men — ho could not make any piofits. 9136. He could not ? — I am satisfied that he could not. OURRIE. Kixon's Pay* inn8tFr>an«i- Parv»yor«hii> Coniinifisntiat Officer* Commissariat officer (sub-agent) In connectloa with Carre's party on section jNo. 15. Winnipeg, Friday, 1st October, 18S0. I). S. CuRRiE, sworn ami examined : By the Chairman : — 9137. Where do you live ? — In Winnipeg. 9138. Have you been connected with any of the -business of the Canadian Pacific Railway? — Yes; I have been connected with the Pacific Railway since June, 1875 : the first two years as commissariat officer, and from May, 1877, up to the end of 1879, as accountant ic the office at Winnipeg, here. 9139. When you were commissariat officer were you attached to any particular party in the field ? — Yes ; I was sent out with Mr. Carre. 9140. To what locality ? — I went out to Rat Portage and worked in towards Red River where contract 15 is now — two surveys. 577 CURRIE nixon's i**».v IIIHMlfr^MUli* ;il H, Was tliat office of commisariut officer similar to what is called r^"V^i?.TJ«!^* ;i siibai^ent, soinetiines alluded to iii your nooks? — Yos, the same. All oiiurr. ;lio coinmissariut officers are known assub-agenls in the official insti-tic- ;i:in>. 'Ail. What was the duly of these otlicers? — To receive all stoi'es Dutioi! or mii>. scat forward to the |)Ui've3'or ; to keep account of the men's wayes ""•■'"'• ;iiid time, and any advances made to thom,antl to make a return of the time to tlie purveyor at Winnipei^; and also to move camp I'vom time til lime J s the engineer in charge of the party might direci. ',1143. Over what matters would they liave power upon their own discretion to act? — There was \ery little indeed. I'Ut. Would you makefile birgains for freighting for the camp?— A foico nrtpn or \o; we had a force of men under our charge all the time, probably [[J,Vvi"i)nlviM''.!is, ten. twelve or fifteen men, to move the camp and provisions, us the ciiiiiiieer in charge directed us to do. 1)145. Then these men formed part of that party? — Yes. 91 to. When they were not moving camp how were they employed ? —Cutting out trails in advance so that we could move camp. Ot' coarse they were subject to the engineer in charge at any time. If we had no work for theni in the camp he would send them off U) any duty ilial he thought proper. ;tl47. Did the sub agent keep a set of bo -ks of his own for each Book-kteinnj;, piiity? — Yes ; ho was supposed to ilo so. f'l4^. Do you remember what set of books you kept for that party? Kept ikwIc record. — i kept a tliin book in which J kept the merj's time and wages |ina'wa"''ps.'!ina aC( Hint, and ere liled ihem with their time at the end of the month, ci»a«Ki"«"'i , 1 1 ,1 -.i 1 vaiK'Os ill stood ■) aiiii charged them with any advances. ormon.'v. :U49. Do you mean with any money, or goods, or both ? — Both. 915 ). Do you remember whether these accounts were kept in yoni' mn name or were they kept in the name of the party ? — In Winnipeg.-' 0151. Yes, in Winnipeg or anywhere? — Of course I considered those iiijoks my own books. 1 simply kept them in order to make returns. Iil52. For insiai.v.e, if you received money would you charge that to yourself in your book? — Yes ; as sub-agent. IM53. The account would bo " D. S. Currie to cash ? " — Yes ; exactly. 1*15 L As to supplies, did you make entries in j'our books on that Did not fiitt>r siihjoct? — No; all I was required to do was to see that tho Kupplies J'fJ'f]^"k^;7,tHy''^^ Hilt forward and billed to rae wore received, and I receipted for them signed way-bui. and returned tho way-bill to the fj-eighter. 0155. You say those supplies were not the basis of any entry in your books ?— No. 015(i. You did not charge j^ourself with those supplies at any price ? Xo. SU57. Then did you only keep a debtor and creditor account, as far as you wore concerned, about the cash items? — The cash items and lepajment stores. 37 J. SUTHERLAND 578 Fort Frniict'ti l.orii — Buuk-hi-eiiiiiK'. Ja.mes Suttieuland's examination continuod : By the Chairman : — 9158. You have alrcsRly been sworn? — Yes. fifntcmcnt of 01.50. Can you prodiK'O tlio stiitoment of the goails which 3-011 r;, . wrtMessVprol'*^'" ^^'l^'^" y<^" ^^^''"^ g'ving vour evidence before, liad been delivered i.> J' 1 a rices Lock. < lovernmerit at the closing up of the Government store? — Yes ; 1 i^ ,. dijco it. (Exhibit No. 105.) 01(iO, In this statement no j)riccs are attached to the items? — Xo, 0161. Will it bo possible to show the state of the Store Accoii-it without having tlioso items priced and carried out, extended ard entoic! in the book? — No; not the amount. 0162. Have you any means of arriving at the proper prices wliiti, ought to be attached to these items ? — Yes. I have a knowledge of th« plant that was there, and of ccnxrse I have a price list. I have the las; statement which was written upon the books to the Government. 1 could put the prices at a vary close valuation, I think, which woiilJ show the right balance whatever it might be. 916.3. The particular account of the Government store at Fort Fr.in- (•09 could not bo complete in the way it has been kept without aso.':- taining the prices of ail these articles ? — No. 01 64. Will you bo good enough now to ))ut the price to this so as to complete this portion of the bookkeeping (har.diiig witness the stati- ment) ? — Yes. 9165. Then for the present thin inventory is returned to you. Tiio books which you produced the other day, 1 understood you to say, won? all the books of that work as far as you knew ? — They were considerci the head books. 0166. Do you mean the subsidiary books of other branches, or i.s Inis a complete set of the genei-al office books ? — They are the complete >ei and all written up. 0167. Are they tlie original books in which these same items -vvoro entered ? — Yes. 9168. Was there any change by replacing some books with ollieis in that set at any time? — No; tliese were the only books thatwoic kept. 9169. The day-book, for instance, in this set, is the original book?— Yes. 9170. And you made no others to replace it? — No. 9171. Nor any other book in t>^at set?— No ; it is the complete sot. Books proctnrod : roinplcic set and ah writtci) up. • 679 CURRIE le items woro erinal book'?— Kivon'M Pa^'- lUHMtrr-nnd* I), S. Curuik's exjinunatioii c uniiiucd : Book-kenlTilB.'' By the Chairman :— 9172. IMcM^e explain the aeconiit of repayment stores? — That is .tores oliiei" than piovi.sioris to ho isstiod for the men : t(jhaf'CO, clothing, ^^,.,__aiiythin^ that they might veiiuire for their per^sonal u>-e that they totilil not procure on the line. iH'S. Then those items did appear in yotu" set of li>(;ks? — No; not ;i,o itoms. lUTl. I a>lh items, ;!|ipoarcd in your booUs, and you said no otherw except repayment «toivs? — Tliey appeared in tliis way : that the men wore charged with ■hem when they were issued. 1 urn not clear that 1 charged them myf^elf ui)on receipt. 9175. That is the point I am cndeavoming to ascertain, whether when ihesc stores I'eached you you charged yourself with them as well as •vith the cash which was entrusted to you for payment of the men ? — I would not like to say that 1 chai'ged myself with anything j-elating 10 these atoi-os in the books 1 kept. 917(5. Is the book now in your hands the one whicli was kept by villi when you were sub-agent on section 15? — Yes. 9177. In your own books kept out on the lino did you enter the witness iiimse.t (|iiantitios and prices of the goods, which you call repayment stoies, a]/,"tmt or 'cun-: ' whicli were sent to you from time to time ? — I find that 1 charged sijimmiit. ■* I myself with the amount. I made no entry of the number of articles, biit with the amount of the consignment. 9178. Do you know whether you charged that at the price which ^^'^'^^'ic^Jj;}^^^^^^^^ vou disposed of it to the men, or at the price which the purveyor pur- {> ''"^.'J/S'''*^*}^ I based it ? — They were charged to the men at the list of prices he gave whu.h also were me to charge for the goods. I'Kefu ' ''*" ''''*^ 917iK Do I understand you to say that the ])rices you charged your- self for them were the prices at which j'ou sold them to the men ? — Yes. 9180. Did you, from time to time, render statements to the purveyor Made monthly un the whole amount that you had paid the men, inchxding cash and '■*''"'''^*'- goods payments ? — Yes; I sent returns in monthly. 9181. Do you know whether you would get credit in your account :itthe head office tor all the amounts you had paid the men, including puyirents in goods as well as payments in money ? —Yes ; in separate accounts. 0182, You sent a distinct account for the amount which you paid in money and another one for the amour.t which you paid in goods ? — Yes; the pay-roll showed how much was advanced to each in cath and fctoves: there was a column f i" one and a column for the other. 91^3. Do you remember whether, in settlements between you and the purveyor, the amount or value of the goods charged to you would I'ecineof the items upon which you made the settlement? — Yes; there was a settlement for stores apart from either salary or cash advances. 9184. Do you know whether that statement was procured from the ^tooksof the purveyor or only from detached papers?— That I do not. «*' OURRIE 580 T-f (''•111'? Klxon's l*»y- ■iiaster JR4»Ok-kvri>ill}(f Never heard there was any profit placoil to sub-agent's credit In his books at ■Winnipeg. ■Understood he was charged at selling price. ktiuw. I have HoUlod with Mr. Coiiklin ; but whotlior he n'()t lhL'>t;a,. ment of iKH'oiiiit from the books oi- from Iho itivoieos I do tiot kihiw. Tho Hcttlomcnt wa.s in accoi'thuico vvitli the list of goods and pij,,, sent out to me froru time to time. 5)185. Do I under.>«tuiid you to say that, as a matter of fact, you -ottuj with tlie pui'veyoi- foi* the cash which ho gave you and also for il,,. goods wiiich he eiitiustei you with, and that the prices of tho,-c j/Oik wore settled for by you at a higher price than 3-011 uiidor.-iiiol l,„ bought them for? — I should not liko to say so iu every case; lnu 1 undel■^tood, in fict I think I hcaril Mr. Xixon say that he chaigtjhp, advance of 5 or 10 per cent, on the cost to cover charges of tnm, ])Orlation, and that it was on that basis lio made out tho ])rice list whioi, lie gave mc, and my settlement with the pui-veyor was on the liiisisu; those prices, irrespective of what ho paid for them. 1>18G. Assuming that ho had an account in his set of books, and 1,,. charged you in that ac(U)unt with only the invoice prices of the goojs- that is to say, tho ))rice at which ho had bought them — and liiat voi afterwards got credit from him or settled with him at the higher |»iirr of 10 per cent, over, can you say what tho effect of that would In' With whom would tho profit remain ? — Then my sales would l»o i; excess of tho amount charged against me. Of course there would ho a ])rotit made if ho charged me with the cost prico, but I assume In chargcil mo w ith the prico with the freight added. 9187. I am spoaking now of tho books at his end of tho line — tliiii n, at Winnipeg— not the books at your end of tho line. I undorstuna that you do not know and did not know the contents of his books ;ii Winnipeg? — No; I never saw them. 9188. I am asking yMn you lemembo!" wliether these matei'iaN were in dome other h i)k, or were they on detached paj^ers ? — I would have likely taken .lime of the entries from the vouchers and from copies of tho stale- iieiits sent to Ottavva, of monthlj' leturns; in fact, 1 endeavoured to .iiako a start Irom the commencement of that year 1877. 9201. Did you find in day book A any of tho materials for these , lilies which you make in youi' day-book or journal li ? — No; I think l.ot. 11202. Have ^'ou had the custody of the books which Mr. Ni.xon transfoi-red to the l>epartment at the time that he gave up office? — N'ot continuously ; that is to say thoy had been handed over to one I iwo parties who were examining into the affairs of the office, but they were returned to me. y203. Have you obtained them again?— Yes; all the books were leUiriied to mo, but \ did not clieck the individual vouchers, papers and li'ttors. ,1204. Was there any book before the journal B, now produced, which oii^'hl to contain tho maierial for these enti-ies? — I think there was i.nothcr book with a few pages of memoi'anda of some sort or other, which 1 think I can produce. 0203. Were those entries in the ordinary way in which entries are Eniric-iiiiciiuiar, liniile in any set of books? — They were not legular entries, that is lioublo entry. : !l20fi. Were they entries made with a view of book-keeping ?— Yes [iiilhough not made in the f(nMn that they aie ordinarily made ; more in littail, 1 think. \ 9207. Bo those entries Avhich appear in your journal B proceed from [tliu^e entries which, in your opinion, you found in Capt. Howard's "ok altogether, or in pui't ? — Thoy could not altogether, but they prob- [iii'ly are in part. I'208. Had you occasion to look- into the books which had been kept, previous to tho 1st January, 1877, by Mr. Conklin ? — Yes ; in get- ting materials lor the returns called for by tho Department. '«■< 9209. Do you understand book-keeping ? — Yes; 1 think so. fiiderstniids book-keeping. CURRIE 582 iniMter«nuii- Furveyornhlp Iiook«ke«|iiiiK« A now s.VHtcni of »iook-kPeiilii;( udoptetl. V ■i- 15o()k.s as kei>t. t)y Conklin t'ould not show the state of fiindrs. \)1\(). Have you been nceuHtomod to it? -Yes; before coming n-, hero, 1 WHS for three years accountant and cashier for a hir^e cullieil in Nova Scotia: tlie Glasgow and Capo Broton Coal Company. Thi', employed at times probably five or six hundred men. 0211. Wore your booUs kept in a satisfactory way down tlioic"-| Yes. 9212. Have the books been kept in a satisfactory way to the Dopar mcnt here, since you htive taken charge '/-Yes; I think so. 1 hav adopted a now system altogether, since I have been made ro.sponsibli..; the J)epartment myself. 1 have had my own way in the matter since tlni, of course. Previous to that I vvas under instructions from other |)aili.> here ; but now I am responsible to the Department direct. 92i;-{. Had you any occasion to look into the books which li:ii| kv kept before the 1st of January, 1877, in the purveyor's depiutincnt • tlio Pacific Jiailvvay, by Mr. Conklin ? — ^'es ; aftei" J had conio intuili,. otHce. 9214. Did you form any oj)ini()n as to the method in which Uh'y li;,, been kept? — Well, yes ; 1 formed an opinion. 9215. Did you look into them frequently, or only occasionaily Describe what connection you had with them ? — There were seveiai occasions on which returns were called for from Ottawa, to shovy the to!a: expenditure on the survey on the dill'erent works; then 1 looked iiiiu, rally into the books to get the information ; but not Hnding it tlioiei looked to copies I found in the office of returns, and endeavoured U)i;'i the information from tlie vouchers. Of course I looked, as a nuiltev'; curiosity, through the books from titne to time. 921G. Have you formed any opinion as to whether the books woiv kept so as to show the real state of attuirs ? — No; they could not sIidv anything, in fact, more than the personal accounts ol the men — thit • correctly. There ma}' possibly he individual accounts which mvi possibly be correct ; but from the manner in which they wore kep: they would not show correctly the expenditure under the ditt'oroi.l heads. 9iil7. I assume that yon mean thiit the set of books would showti' state of affairs in the estalilishment for which they were ke])t ?— (Vr tainly. 9218. Would they show only money transactions, oi- would thecal, book be sufficient to show the monej' transactions? — It would shi the whole, but not as to details. 9219. But if there was anything else but the cash kept, woiiid thc-i; books show it ? — They should show it. 9220. But did they show it to you ? — I know there are stores accoui: < 9221. AVere the stores accounts kept so as to show the transaolio!s| of the establishment in a correct way? — No; not so as to show transactions of the establishment in a correct way, 9222. In your opinion, can -we, by investigating these bonks, aiwei at a proper conclusion as to the state of affairs ? — Of course the concl'jj sion I would arrive at, was that the books had been kept in Hm:iaj manner that they did not show what they ought to show, an 1 ff^'j they should be expected to show. 583 CURRIE down tluM'o ;- i, as a nmUep; l lt22."). Dill thoflo bo;)ks show tho real sialo of nttai-s ? — Xn ; they did ;io:. I am not aware that thoy woro over InUant'ed. ;>221. In order to show the real wtate ol" all'air^ they should he Uiliineed ? — Certainly. « lt22r). You Hpoak of oxpcnditiiros continuously, should they not show the purchases '? — No; thoy did not, !t22f soolii^i how this a<'<'oiii)i was sclllod. ;!■'. No entry in joiii'iial to corres-^' |)ond Willi dale im, ledjiur. ^ CURRIE 584 NIxonN Pny- iiiHHt4'r«niiliiK< P*ok« niroid no clew to i.x|>liilii Uie trariMuilnti. IIpiti .T'llltt'd to litiiik iiriil also to iirown : shoiilil luiV(.' Im'cii I'liiutri i| to liiiii. toil in tlio ledger. I WDiiId tuko tliiit to mean tlmt Brown Ii:i 1 (lo|»(n'teii that anioiiiit to Mr. Nixon'H crctlit in honio l)!inl< hero us tlic proi if.li ol'storo.s ^()l(|, I |tre.suino, or somi'lhitiij ol'thitt sort. 9237. I'o you moan tliat you aHcertain that from Iho hooks? — No, !I23S. PoVhiips you do not rorncmijor tho (luostioii. I nfkvd ym, t,, tell nr.c from the l)ooks how that was settled ? if it was settled iluit way, HJiould it not ho (diar^oJ to Mr. Nixon ? — Vus. (After oxaminiii' ihohook); 1 ^ivo it lip; I cannot timl any cxplatialion of it. TIumv miiy bosomoaeeoiint in the led<;er iiere which are not in tho index, in i iiavo fie(iiieritly fimnd amounts in the Ied;,^u' that were not indexcil. 'J230. If you look sit the cash l>ook, nn Deccmter 14th, you will jiii ; an item of the stime amount; will yon explain whtit the otfeet of tlm, entry is in the ca^l^hook ? Is it to mid\e the iiaidc ii creditor or dt'h'.oi- fir that sum ?— Tho hiuik would he made a creditor. !>240. Can you oxpiiiin any process by w[ii(di John Broun woiiii. ii. credilel with that sum, and the hank would also be erodiUid with ihai Tlic ,f'.'.K(il.l."< \v\h\ to lirowii hy Otilclil! I'lK-'lllU. sum V No; as it is entered here it should have been char^'ed JJrown, and insteiul of that 1 see it is creditel to him. 0241. Now look at the ledijor A, iit [)at;o l!>, and you will similar amount debited to J;)hn Mrov\'n ? — Yes. '.•242. Can you exi)lain llio elVect of all these entries, and sa}' liou ,iii matter was tiiwill}' settled with .b)hn Brown? — .b)hn Biown seiMn> to U: ])aid that amount^ jind is charo-ed with it in his acci)iint hero. Tli;u i- correct, as far as it ^oos. Jle is charged with it and then credited Aiih it, so as to have the effect of making it nil altogether. '.•243. Then what is the offect of that transaction ? You have tioliioii (hilt the batd< gets credit for that simount as if it had been )>aid xm^i one, docs it not? — Yes; it would appear to have been paid to iii'own, 9244. Then tlio effect of these charges to Bi'own's account, aro llnv not that he apparently received tho amount, and ))aid it back to Mr, Nixon, inasmuch as he gets credit for it? — Yes; from tracing it in this way that is what I would iid'er; that tho itmount has been ]iaiil tn Brown, and the bank has been credited with it. 9245. From these entries, as you find them, does it i»i)poar that sonir one lias ttikcn from the bank the sum of $2,801.28? — Yes; it is cviilont that that amount litis been paid to Brown by otiicial cbcfiiio. !l24fi. Can you understand why it should ho credited to him, tdlhoiiirii it has been ditiwn from tlio bank? — No, 1 cannot understaml, unless il may have been placed to his credit. 9247. To whoso credit? — To Brown's, as sub-tiircnt. !I248. iftis that entitled him to the credit on his account as siib-ai^oiil .' — That would bo taking it out of his personal account. In that ca-o it should be charged against him in another account, as sub-agent, tigainst which ho could cheque. That has been done, at least i liavo hoanl it- taid that it had been done with some of tho sub-agonts. 9249. Is the effect of all these entries a correct one as far as Ix-ok keeping is concerned ? — It should not have been placed thei o at all, it that were the case. 585 OURRIE Niton** Piiy- iiinNt4>r-nii«l« n:'.')!). Uo you roniotnbor wliother muiiy of llio accoiiiitpi in tlio.-o uook-i»V«pSii'iV* l„i()kH lU'o closod ill a way tliat doos tint a|i|>c!Mi- correct or only ii fovv ; y i,^,^,,, „„,„i„.| .,0(1 is llii^ anioiinl iiuitciial or iiisi.)\'oii remetnher how the wtorc-keepor I'linii^lied you with wiiii.'SN'srcnuin. .laiciiictits as lo tin- ^'oods left in the store? Do you iemem"ber whe- M!lVrm\!hT-!\m'-'*' •iii'i'ilicv were sU|»|)o«ed lo l)e based on the (luatitities actiiallv tliere, iiMicd i)y sioii- 1 iijviii the (juantities wliich tlio books showed oui^ht to liavo been ' '^ ' •ii'io? — 1 do not remember. There were no rej^ular returns made of 111' (;oi»(is in store diirinif the time I wan there. My recollection is that \|r. Ni.x'on maid that at ditl'ei'ent times ho had made returns to the (Jov- ^ .innieiil sliowim^; llio amount of stores then on hand, and ho did not nr.iilcct ti.e melhoil by whicli this amount was arrived at. If ho did II, they did not pHHs throuf^h my hands an accountiuil ; 1 do not i-e- inii'inluT having- seen them. lie j^ot the storedHM'(('. will the fijnods thai car -out?— No; I was not given any statement yivctln iih'it of f lilt) ffoods that wen, in or were taken out. I did not coii^idei- that a'n'i uut'onV.'' ;iiiie within the scope of my duties at all — anything with regard to I tiio store*. 'Xl;)i. Then your books would show nothing about that ? — No ; 'iilliiiig about stores at all. J was not given to undersland that I had jiylliiiig to do with them. !!.,')[. Are the books kept in a different way now? — Yes. '1255, Please explain the difference which you think exists? — They Hooks itopt now •.;!f kept by the refiular system of ilouble entry, and balanced at the I.'r.uiubiil'enVry,''' ■ iidotoiich month bolbre any returns are sent to Ottawa. Tiiero is Ac iniic attention paid to the checking; there is a diti'orcnt system all iliruiitrh. To begin with, the accounts are certified now by the engi- ij'or ill chai'ge of the subdivision, oi" wlritover work it is chargeable 'i; liiU all the accounts chargeable to that division must be certified ',0 by liim in the first place. Cliiuiuo In aystciu ol' l)ooli-lieei)liit;. \yH)ii. Did not that system prevail when you wore clc'k under Mr. system under Nixon? — Xo; not regularly. He bought sometimes. Ivyine accounts ^"'""" 10 jtaid on his own certification only. The engineer would make a Nixon would pur- iiisiiion on him, and on that requisition he would purcliase the sup- I^crt'if/t'o rorrect- 3s and ceitifV lo the correctness of the account and pay it. 1 have f"^'*^"''".''.':"""'. ■rer ii'-l iiken a copy of the returns as rendered now, with all ot the vouchers, '"' ''"* ;i>;in illustration of the system. 9257. Will you please produce it? — I produce a duplicate of the leturn for July. 5)258. How often are these returns made ?— Monthly ; at the close "f each month, or as soon after as they can be prepared . 9259. Please state, under the different headings, what particulars Returns nsmnde- itioyshow? — It shows, in the first place, expenditure under the f-everal pai-uouifus." ii *!t CURRIE &86 J* v.; u*> . . If. If ..;^.iv JWIxou's Pay iiiuat.«r-aiid« Book^Tkeeiiiiig.'' appropriations under which tho money is voted. I got them tioni tbi estimates. Tresent system of 9260. L)o you mean that the wholo voto is divided up into smuilji' i^rpi'tuno".'"'^**''"^'' aums ? — Yes. There are tive divisions in this month from Ea<,'Ie Uivor to Koewatin, contract 42 ; consequently Keewatin to Soilcirlv embrace. contracts 14 and 15. Then, west of J?ed Elver, first 100 miles, sMconJ 100 miles and third 100 miles. This is as tiir as tho expenditure i-i a' present. 9201. Do you mean that a sepai-ate amount is voted for each orilitv.v works? — Yes. 9262. And do you kotp a sepai-ate account for each of th<.'m ?— Vf- aud ask for a ere' it under those ditl'iirent heads. Then, undor tho-. principal heads, ..lere are sub-heads in detail. In the first phuc engineering is a sub head ; then there are sub-heads again to that, ;i> to further detail, showing wages, supplies, hoard, salaries and Iran-. port, or any expenses incurred. All payments for construcliiMi aii; matle by me on contract 15 ; that shows the amount paid for wage?, supplies, stores, ])lant, 1*^:0., and where it is necessary to make advallCl^ now, every payment made is supported by vouchers. Every paymon; is hupporled by a voucher, except where it is found necessary lo mak',' advances to engineers going on survey. In that case it stands charii'.i to me as an advance until vouchers are produced. Tho amount vi alancod, or wuh it necessary to commence with a fictitious balance on tionie account ?— The books had not been bahmced when I took charge. I Mmply continued the old system up to the end of the year then current. 92(J1). Please look at page 42, journal B, and explain the note at the foot of it. What is the substance of that note? — There would be accounts remaining open, the total of which when summed up would amount to $4,405.83, and charged in order to balance the ledger with ihe intention of starting from that date under the regular double entry system. t»270. Do you mean that that would be the whole imount of op<'ii accounts, oi* do you mean that one side of all the op<;ii accounts differed that much from all tiie open accounts on the other side ? — Yes ; it can be explained in that way. ',•271. Do you mean that what I say is a right explanation : that it may he the dilferenco between open accounts to a much larger sum than that ? — Ves. ^ ',1272. Then it does not show the amount of the o))en accounts ? — No : it is supposed to be the difference between the total debits and total credits, and thev would both be out verv much. 9273. As a matter of fact, can you give any idea Jiow of the total amount of the accounts which are not settled or squared in that set of lijoks? — I think I ran up a list of .'.hem at the titne in pencil. I have here a trial balance sheet taken on the 1st of May, 1877, on the books leiiig handed over to mo, and 1 find the debits all foot up $;^9,G07.'20. 9274. Were those accourits .'■qipare'.itly unsettled in the books at that time? — Ves; that is what 1 andc^ttood then. The credits 8B,8U).;J8, leaving a discre])ancy of $30,880.82. 11275. Do you remember now how that discrepancy was i-ediiced down to $4,000, so as to start the new books. with a llclitious entry of ^mly 84,00)? — They must have been written off as settled. J went to Mr. Nixon first ancl then to Mr. Conklin,to get explanations ; from Mr. Conklin at his office. We went over the books together, and the accounts remaining open that he told me had been settled [marked olf. 927 iiiaster-anrt* fur vejrorali i |> Book>keeplM}{. Boolis wlien wit- ness took cliiirgi! hiul not l)oeu Ijataueed. $4,l(tt.S.! pill ilovvu as at'cuuiits p'!- iiuiininKopcii. WIh'Ii hooks haiidi'd ovi'c to nini lii'hUs aiiuiunti'ii lo $:t!i,ii!i7.Lii. Ciodlts ?s,S|(i.-,S l( iivliis; dlsore- pant'yol jou.ssu.s III ordor to find tlii> balance of $ t, !(),•> s;Uhodi tit; I' ence between that sum and *;{o,HS<(.H2 must, haveliceii written oiras sottlid. ■RV CURRIE 588 iiia«tfr«nii FtirvryorMliip Bonk«ki-e|iliig, 0280. Did 3'ou undtTstand thjit they had been sent lo Ottawa ani that no correct entry renpectin;^ them had been previously made iji i||,. books? — That is what I understood. 0281. And is that the reason why it became necessary for hiin to trust to his recollection at the time that these accounts were wriityn ett? — Yes. He told mo that they Avere settled, tho'i^h not mai-koj nfi, 92S2. When you say marked oft' do you mean liiat the meiin> hv which thej' were settled did not appear regularly in the booics ? 1 nui b<)ou"su>\v».uraiit asking you if there was an entry in the books on which to found that '^* matter, or was it merely in the man's head? — There was noth the books to show it. 0283. Is there any other ni'iUer which you wish to explain by wrc of evidence? — No; 1 think not. $2(i,ll '.91 written oil' wiltiont. an.v- ItiiiiK ID tlie liig 111 Rniltray Con> Ntriifilon — Contract i\u. II. MOLESWORTH. WiNNFi'K.;, Saturday, 2nd Oct.jbei-, ISSU. « Aktiick N. -Moleswortii, sworn and examined : Bj/ the C/uurman : — 92S4, AVhere do you live ? — I live in town hero. 02S5. How long have you lived here? — About throe months. 928fi. What is A-our business? — Civil Engineer. 0287. Have you at any time been connected Avith any of the woi-ic-jfii the Pacitic l^ailway ? — Yes. 0288. From what time?— The 1st of June, 1875. 0289. AVith what Avork ? — 1 was appointed assistant engine^ ;■ on contract 14, ut.der construction, 1^200. Who was the engineer in charge? — Mr. Thompson. "0201. Was that after the contract was let ? — Yes. 0292. What duties did you undertake as as^istant engineer ? — Tu lav out the Avork for the contiactors. To lay out the ditches and bii'ige- and culvertf, «fce., and the cuts and fills. 9293. What Avork had been marked upon the ground before yon commenced this work? — The line had been i-un thiough ; but they Avere changing it Avhen I Avent there — a part ( i' it. 9294. AVei'o there an}' marks upon the ground to shoAV wliat woik umwAVcSilct' liad been done ? Had the centre line been pegged out ?— Yes. The centre line had been cut out and stakes were put in. There was iiii engineer on the first section who had laid out a little of the work, anil they had commenced work on the embankment. 02.5. IIoAv do you say he had laid it out — on paper? — No; he put in the slope slakes and ditch stakes, and marked the cuts and tills, so that the men could do the work. 9296. When you Avent there was there anything to show that any cross-sections liad ever been marked out or done ? — No ; nothirii:, excepting just those few hundred feet — I suppose about a (piartoi' cf :i mile — laid out by the engineer, Mr. Bristow. -A sslslant to Ihojup.'ion, 0D'4\- iicer in chargi'. Duties t)f assist- ant engineer. Blntf of woric 589 MOLESWORTH of I ho Avorioii! t eiiirmei:' on noer ? — To lav RniUviiy Con^ Kiriiotloii — Cuiiti-a«-t ^'4>> 14. '.I:i07. 1)'> you know tVom what you sa'.v whether it hsi I Iteon cross- cross-s.'dic.noa sectioned belbro you did it? — It waw cross-sectioned every 500 teot. GM'vy rm u-vi. 11208. "Were there siirns upon the ground to show that, ? — ^'os; stalcos. When they saw the liue through they simply cross-sectioned ever3'50(l leet. It was sucli a kivel country that they did not think it necssary to cross-section it any closer than that; it was a perfectly flat country— or, at least, nearly so. The parly who ran the line had just cioii^-sectioned it at the same time. 112'.)!). Who was that? — Mr. Forrest. He had an assistant cioss- .ectioning at the same time that he took the levels. 'JiOO. Were you assistant engineer over the whole of section 14, or witness mmipct- oiiiy a sub-section of it ?— Just a section ot" it. t^^en m'.i' ■'sut!-''''"' :t30I. How long wa^ that section? — Thirteen miles, heginidng at Red tni.t'Ti." Kivcr and running eastward. :i;)02. Pid you remain in that situation during constiaiction by Sifton, Aftor twoyp.irs Ward & C ). ? — 1 remained in that position for two yeais, and then p^^[||j7cunn'lu't. 1 was removed to another part of it. The excavation was completed, iiiiil 1 was sent to another section. 0303. Can you describe the extent of the deviations after you were; thuie, which were adopted and upon which (lie work was constructed ? -Wlioii 1 went theio, they were re-Iocatinsi' the first five miles fiom Red IJiver on my section, and that is the only change that was made 111 t!u! part ftf the work that I was connected with. S'SOt. Was that a great deviation or slight in distance or character? sii^iit pimnu'o in -No; it was only slight. They just change xlriictlon— Cuiitrntt Su It. FinlsliccJ thp r"i'- lion III' I Mo wnik near Ueil Uivcr Tho line at Rod Kiver rpaiiy for c'lntrHctor tiy .July, 1S7,'). AVork progressed steatiily on si'c- lion of wi'iiiess. North Pftiibiiin Jlraiich— Contract No. 14. '.•."{I-i. Afier tluvt i'e-locati(in did tho conti-actor commoiHMs \v<;iica* once on tho lied River end? — Very soon atterwards ; i do not remember liow soon. 9315. Dill he -work from that end of tho sub-section in his coiitnir tion ? — Yes; well he worked from the centre bacl< towards that oml.ariu he iiad a few men woi'kitig- near the rivei'. He tinished lliat [>icie m, that summer. WkMC). So lie linishcd one portion of the line rather than aiiotlai portion wliich would not have been an advantage to hini in gottiu^'ii, his supplies ? — 1 do not know ; I do not think so. 9317. r>o you know from what direction he got his supplies /—JI,. got them from Winnipeg — from Selkirk. 9318. Would it be more advantageous to him to have the wo.^t onii jinishcd ? — Yes; it would, of course, for getting in his supplies. 9319. Then would you say whether it would bo more advantiit;eoii-; to him to have one part fini>hed rather than another first? — Vos ; i; would be more advantageous for him to have commeiicetl ai ti,.. beginning. 9320. Whicli beginning ? — Red River. 9321. Do you know how long that portion of the line remaintMj nc located after he was ready to begin his work ? — 1 do not know when ho was ready to commence his work ; but I know it was ready by the 1st ot July, 1875. 9322. Do you know whether he makes a claim against the (Jinern- nient on account of his line not being located in time for him in ire- his work done to advantage ? — No ; 1 do not know. 9323. Did the work progress steadily on your section af;cr it wiw commenced by him ? — Yes; it di v.) stoppage there. . 9328. Then the stoppage was on some other portion of tho line ?— Ves. 9329. When you were moved to another sub-section to what soction was it? — In the spring of 1877 I had charge of the bi-anch from heiv to Selkirk. It was building then. 9330. Before you left the first sub-section was there any dL-^piite j between tho contractors and the engineers as to tho quality aiiil quantity of the work done? — Not on the work that I was coniiectd with. 9331. Was it intended from the beginning that you should take tlie section which you say you were on ? — No ; it was intended that I should be on the last section at Cross Lake — No. 6. .^t'lji 9332. That is the east end of section U ?— Yes. 591 MOLESWORTH 111 tiflcr i' \v;i^ time li' .'tfiii KniUvny Von^ sli'iii't ion — Do you know whether the work liad heen hiid out on that oast *"•"'•"*•» '^o«i^- iMition of the lino a^ carefully as you say it was hiid out on the section lihii'h yf»i actually did take ? — 1 do not know. 11334. Oid you not look at the tfround before you decided not to go j,lj^,.eV__I was only there once, in the winter. I did not look at it at li,!, 1 (lid not go over the section. I ti.r^S. Is cross-sectioning at a distance of 500 feet considered sutlicient fross-socUonin-; I 1 . • '7 I I o -vT •. • , r 1 -J every iiHi feet IK t Uiierc the country is not level r — iNo; iL is not. In some places it cohsuIcm-imi smii- llas to be cross-seclioned at every ten feet. uau\Vlr.''mnt.-y. 'jl3(!. Is there r.ny portion of section 14, in your opinion, which Liiiires cross-sectioning at shorter intervals than 500 feet? — Vos; iTherovor there is any rock. .1337. What portion of the line wou'd that be? — From Whilemouth wiiitemomii '" |n>t\vai'(l there are short pieces hei'c at.d tliei-e all through — tliat is the rt\**nTre'^c'rfrss-'e'^- tlonlng within shorter Intervals. liajt ihirty-tive miles. 'J338. Do you know whether cro.s,s-sectioning of those portions was llone before the contract was let? — I do not know. ;i339. At what time did you go upon the Pembina Branch ? — In Vemu. Bi-Hueu— Jay, 1877. rou..-ac. 5 a. yUO. What branch was that, north or south? — North. m\. Who was the engineer in charge ?— Mr. Rowan. ii,7i;a"ge"^''''''^' 11342. Were you next under him ? — Yes. ;i343. What was the character of the worlc over that branch ? — It Ins common earth-work. 9344. Was the country generally level ?— Yes ; very level. Country h.vH i.nt \V.4. '•345. Was there anything peculiar about the land through which the Iftftake ditches would ho made? — It was very wet; that was all. Ilhere was a great deal of water on the line, an immense quantity. 9340. Would that make the off-take ditches more expensive to the Iwntiactor, or less expensive? — It would make it more expensive, I ioiild lliiiik. 9-47. Were the off-take ditches made under your supervision ? — Ves. 'J34S, Do you know anything about the off-take ditches on section |15?-No; I do not. 9340. Did you ever see the country through which they^were made? !'350. Do you know the country on the .South Pembina Branch, [towards Emerson ?— No. 1 have never been south of Winnipeg on the line, '•351. Are you able to give any opinion upon the comparative value or opinion there b[ ditches— off-take ditches— made on tlie North Pembina Branch and ^renlXofflnke pnthe South Pembina Branch ? — I have never seen the country, but I aitehcson the L„ , , 1 . I .1 III 1..1. i. 1 .^ r 1 1 1 soutli and north piikl not think there would be any ditlerence from what 1 have heard pembina Hranch. Kit. ^ 9352. Was the work on the North Pembina Branch finished according Poyoui- satisfaction ?— Yes. WIOLESWORTH 592 '■■fr- Railway Coii« «*(ructi«»ii — I'eiitb. Uriiiic'li- <;ontraet 5 A. Work Pitlislnc- torily in'iloniied liuantitips not ns- '.'erUilnod until work liiltl out. C'ontrnotors on « he ground ready to work Ix'l'orc 2ine laid out. fiine had Ih-ph located bofon-. But line rnn In ■winter and stakes not put In solidly. tl3.i3. lliid yoii any iit,'lit to docide, from time to tiino, wliotlar was piopei'ly (lone or not? — Vi\- , I mailo all the eHlimatcs. J \v„5, not make them unless the woik was in u sali.sf'actoi'y state. O.'iS-t. Vou considered then that the work was done aecorilin;f contract, and to tlie .satisfaction ofyoui-self, and measured accoi'iiin'iii — Ve.s. 9355. Were there disputes between you and the contractor ;,< quantities '/ — No. 0P.50. Do you know who made the orii^inal estimates of that poriij of tlio brancJi — 1 mean north of Winnij)cg? — Xo ; 1 do not. 985?. J)id you lake any part in it? — T ran the line and tuoK- ;;J levels and made the pi'<)tile, but Mr. liowan put on the grades. Wuil out the woi'k immediately afterwards. 9,158. Then the (quantities would bo ascertained in the office, a;ii that woi'k you took no part? — L do not think the quantities wcreovd ascertained until the work was laid out, because while 1 was local the line, Mr. Whitehead had 2)0 or 300 men out thei'c in tt| camps waiting for us to lay out the work, so that he could cotnnu'im 1 had to work day and night to keep him going. 9359. The ccntrtictor was on the ground doing the work, orivaiyj do it, before the line had bjen laid out at all ? — Yes. 93G0. And you say you had to work day and night to lay out work on the gi'ound so that he could do it ? — Yes ; so that I coulil ki'| him going. 9361. Is that the reason that you think the quantities had novo' li., ascertained before he cjmmenced to work ? — Yes. 93G2. Would it have been pt)ssible to have ascei-tained quantitio.r the line had never been located ? — The line had been located tli.J before, and they may have got the quantities from that. The liiiewJ running over the same ground, but the stakes were all out, and I Laj re-located it. 9363. How were they out ? — The lino had been run in the wiiii and the stakes wei'e just stuck up, but they were knocked out. TIk had the pi-otile of it. 9364. Was it the same line marked on that profile that was aitfl wards located by you ? — Yes. 9365. Do I understand you that you saw evidence thei'c that samo line had been previously located, but that the pegs raarkingj had been removed? — Yes; the lino was cut out through the busii found the hubs, but the stakes were gone. 9366. How do you account for that ?— 'Because the hubs ai-o diivel close to the level of the ground, but the stakes stand up, 1 think tli linos were run in the winter, and the stakes woi'e not put in solidlj Thoy cut holes to put the hubs in, as they had to put them solidly. 9367. Had there been a fire over the whole line ? — No. 9368. The stakes could not have been removed then by beiij burnt? — No; they might have been lying in the grass, but I would nl see them. It was swamp most of the way, with water up to our knof 593 MOLtSWORTri 10 contractor i.s: le work, or riaiy; .itic.-shad movo'KJ file that was ait J Rnllwa)- ('oiit M<|-]ICtiOI|-- :);}(!!). is thoro ai\y othor matter CDniiectol willi any of tlio works *'♦»•»*•**'* *"■**• IP which voii wish to <^.vo ovi'loncc ? — In tlio fall of 1877 1 was t-ont in niii or i,'<77u;r).'9 lukto 1 i' to No. 4 Hoction— that is the work Mr. Korro.st haish\g through the Julius Muskeg? — Yes; 1 had charge of that. 9.37-1. Was the material from that ditch put into the lino? — Most of It. 11375. What would you call that ditch ? — I would call it Just an ordi- Hiiiy ditch, only very lai'ge. 9376. Do you mean a line ditch or off-take ditch ? — A line ditch. 1)377. The material was disposed of, was it not. in the same way that khc material of line ditches is disposed of ? — Yes; just the same. All phat the bank required was put into the en^^bJinkment ; but if there was any over it was wasled. I'373. Is the materiid from oti'-tako ditches disposed of in that way ? -No; it is always wasted. Any other otf-take ditches we hsve had are riu'lit angles with the line. 9379. Are you aware that the contractors are making a claim on Conii»ctor«.» .(■ciiuiit of work in that ditch ? — Yes; I understand they are. Lniy'DiVriii. 1380. Were they obliged to remove the material from it a greater <'ontra<-tors imd , ., •/••i 1 1 1 1 >i •! 1- 'J A' 1 i • I i to move inateriiil gih than if it had been niadeon the railway lino .'' — les ; aboutoighty from thisciitch way liinita pa.ssln-r llinaitfli .Julius Muski'^:. Ii'tl Hcot .should thinii instead of ten as the other ditches were. elglity feot as against ttMi t'i'el In 9381. Have you formetl any opinion about the extra expense that auches."^'"^' hat would cause to the contractor? — No; I have not. 9382. In what way did he remove it? — With wheelbarrows; the Material remov- l«)tiora was 80 soft that he had to have trestles and planks all the way barrowsl ' '" nut, eighty feet of plank for each wheol-barrow. 9383. Ilavo you any idea how many yards of earth a man could move la this way could iiy the process adopted there per day ?— I do not think he could average ovlbic'yanls'of '*''' ^uorc than about six. earth a Uay. 9384. And removing material from ordinary line ditches, how many in ordinary line bids could a man do per day ?— He will average about ten yards, I w'm move"teu Ithink. yards » day. 9385. Do you know how much more a yard would cost the contractor contractors these are the right quantities; can you calculate the proportion that a yard more^natL jlhe contractor would pay at the lor..g distance more than at the short at the short liistance? — About 15 cts. a yard I should think it would cost him, Bccording to these figure.'? 38 If I . 1 j MOLESWORTH 594 KaiUvav C'oii- Ht ruction — Contract No H. CoiitractorM' Claim tor Line Ultcli. Woultl cost two- thlrdu more pi'r yard. C'IhIiii for Coder Dtiiii. Balla.sliii|j;i In cliiirKO of l)!il- liiHtin;; ou i:on- tract 11. Satisfactorily (lone tiy \Vhitc- Contract No. 48> Leveller on west fiart of first 100 miles west of Ked Kiver. 938G. Yoli think it woulil cost him 15 cts. mofo ? — I do not kn.w I am Ciilculatinf from my houd. 9387. Ilore arc pencil tind paper, and you ctm Cidciilnte it and Miswcr mi3 in a porocnlii^c not in cents? — It would cost two-third.s moio ii, !• yard at tiio long distance than it would at the ahort distance. 9.3S8. Is there any other matter connected with thiit lastseclion, ujioi, whicli you were assiHtant enj^ineor, which would be the foundatiiiii if iiiiy extra charge liy the contractors? — No; nothin<^ else that I air. aware of. I think they have been making some claim with rogufil »..>;( cotter dam, but 1 do not know. II389. What do you say about that? — I had charge of the bridge theiv, antl the building of the cotter dam, but I think if IhoN'just make a claim ti)r the coHt of the cofferdam — 'Lho Government think that it is in theii' cuntract ibr the building of the bridge, but tlie contrtictors claim iha' ihey should get extrti for it, that is till. 0390. If that work was to be paid for by the rj-ovornment, wouki it be subject to jour certificates as to value ? — Ves. 9391. Did 3'ou ever give any certificates as to value for that work ? — Yes; 1 kept an account of it and sent it into Mr, Thoinp-ion every month. 1'392. Are you preptired to say now whether it wtis a proper chargoup not tor this man to make against the (lovernment ? — I do not kniw at all. 9393. Is there any other matter upon which you wish to give evidence ?— There is nothinsf thtit I know of, except that after I ha I finished on the section at Whitomouth, I was appointed in charge of the ballasting on 1-4. 9,394. On the whole of 14 ? — I had only cl\arge of forty mile>, an 1 that is the only part thtit was ballasted. 9395. Who was that work done by ?— By Mr. Whitehead. 9396. Wiis that done in the way in which you supposed it was \n iio done by the sijecitication ? — Yes. 9397. Was it satisfactorily done ? — Yes ; very well done. 9398. Over what portion of 14 was that ?— From Brokenhctid Itvcr to Whitemouth. 9399. About what length in miles ? — Twenty-three. 94(t0. Were you connected with any other work on the Pacific Rail" way ? — For the last two months I have been out helping to locate tho end of this first 100 miles. 9401. The west end of it ?— Yes. 9402. In what capacity ? — Leveller. 9403. Who was the engineer in charge ? — Mr. Force. 9404. That work having been done since the date of our Commission we will not proceed further with the enquiry upon it. Is there any oiliti' matter connected with the work which you wish to speak on ?— Nothing. . ■'».. 505 CONNERS lo not kii.,.\v ment, would it J, UN I.. CoNNEUs, bwoin Jiiid examiiieil : /?// the Chairman : — 1140'). WlioiT ill) you live? — In NViiinipc;^^. mOiJ. How long have you lived here? — I cunu' here in (he spring of bTi'. Couati'iictloii. Contrail Nw. !• fllOT. Ifavo you lioon engaged in any occupation connected with the Twoiimiii imir Paciric Hailway,or the Paciiic liailway Telegi'aph line? — 1 was engaged fnHrrrpaVrrr'oa t;,ralr)iit two and a-half years as duiM-ator and i-onairor on the (,'anadian tiir Ciinn'iiiin Padtic Kailway lelcgraph line west. , ici.'u'raph ().•- " HlOS. Between what points? — Botwoon SolkirU and J'ort Felly. sukI i-ort, I'eiiy. 11401^ Did you operate it at Winnipeg ? — No; I «-)pcrateiimmer. Thei-e was a groat deal of the line that hatl been put up in 'v^-' i"«»»"*'**.'""' iiji- I I i.L ., 1-I-. t lit' poll's hoilin :he wmtor and had been put over muskegs, and the way they did it was ii,.|ii up'iy iiki.'p. incut a hole and put the pole in. 941*2. Do you moan without touching the bottom?- Such bottom as ihere was; it was all slush. 9413. Was the pole inserted into the earth in the bottom? — No; it wiis only put in. 9414. Then what would hold it up in its place temporarily ?— The ice. '1415. Do you mean the ice on the siirfiice? — Yes. 921ti. Was that all the .support it had ? — That was all. 9417. Over what length of the whole line do you think the poles were put in in that way? — From the Narrows. From Fort Pelly, I ;liink, they were put in very carelessly — that was on the start, 1 mean. In the (-ummer time they had to watch them again an>>ti'tt('t Alo. 1. As a nilo lino ncvfr working tlirou^'h. Not proppi'ly iiiiilntaincd. Never siioceedod iu getting help. I-ine down all the .spri Dg of last year Tried frequently In vain to " call " the operator at the Narrows. K12-1. How did you tix it tomp'H'Jirily '/ — My jtuttiug ii|) iIkj.h' |i ,i,, tripods and niit'ing tlicMii out oI'iIk' hoat. 0425. How did j-ou fUston liio tri[)od to<^otli<>r at tlio tiiiio':'_!, wii'O. 9-t26. Would you put a polo in llu' mid llo of tlio tiipod ? — No; i,,,,, section ot the Iripoi would bo tlio polo, and 1 would put tho iiisiiiatf,. on that. The first Hummci- I was out thoio they did not /^'ct a cjiv;! ; throuifh until .some time in August — I am not ])asitive, i)ut I beliove • was in Auj^ust. Tho lino was only cut out twenty foot wide, ainl w, l)ut tho wire thiough that, and olcourse tho trees fallin<^ aci-oss it 1<,.|- tho wiiOH down. As wo would get it up on one side it would lny;,,; down on tho other; hut that winter we had circuit. 'J427. Do you moan that it was opoivited that winter? — V('<; ii «•„. operated that winter. 9428. Without many delays? — F never knew it to bo operaliMJ wit: out delays, Sometimes wo would /,'et circuit from tho Nairows ; Winnipeg, and sometimes from tho Narrows to Fort Polly, AHiinio tho lino was never working through ; tho summer of ]8V8 it work, i pretty wol' — that was a dry summer — but that was the only suninu.: it ever worked to amount to anything. 9429. Why did it not work well ? — There was not force enon-,'li mi i to repair it. 9430. Then did it not work well because it was not i>ro|)erly mai: tained ? — That is what I moan, 9431. It was not for want of instruments or operators ?— No; it «> for want ot help to keep it up, 9432. Was the lino maintained sufficiently to enable it to be worko! properly ? — No ; it was not. I used to have to carry my bed aiiil W\ with mo. The last time I was out 1 was out forty-eight days nlone, and never saw a human being, and, of course, I could not do miuhati:, \\\ these muskegs it takes two or three men to (h) the work, I left i on account of not having help enough on it, and I could not niaiiilaii; it alone. The poles were poplar and would rot, and two or throe miio^ of tho lino would go down at one slap, and I could not keep it up. 9433. Did you inform j'our employer at any time that you rci|iiiii i more help? — Yes, frequently; but 1 never could got it though. L;i-: spring William Sifton liad the sub-conti-act, 9434. To do what?— To keep up tho line from Shoal Lake to Duck Mountains — about 162 miles, Uewas oft'trading and the line wasdmvni all spring — at least, I was informed that he was off trading, and 1 know tho line was down, 9435. How do you know the lino was down ? — Because 1 am ton nected with tho line now. 9436. In what capacity? — As repairer and constructor, 9437. Between what points are you repairer ? — Between Winnipo; j and Cross Lake. 9438. Would that enable you li — Miiliilviiniitra IHJII Whon 3'on s-iy you frc(,uc'titly "calloil " tlio Narrows, did you *'"""•""«« •>•«»• *• tiv U) communicate with tlio opeialor al the Narrow^ ? — Vos. 11140, By telci^raph ? — Vos. 11441. Hid you Huccecd ? — No ; tlio line was down. Tlioro wore j)a)tit's tiimo in there who toltl mo that ho was otf trading up tho hike. 11442. You do not know that of your own knowledge? — No; I was i,ot there. !U43. Tiion from th(! tinio that j'ou were tirst employed at the Nar- i.in.' in i.'f><"i rows until now, can you say what proportion ofihc^ time the line iias n7/iy'f<')i"i'.'.iir ' iiCi'ti in good repair ?— About four months in the winter, pecjiaps '"«•'""<'" whjtor '■ ' '11 ,111(1 two iiKiiiMis Ive, 111 ■'Ulilllli'l' 1)1 1^T'<. 9444. And in the summer? — None; it never w.'is two weeks up, txccpt tlio summer ot" 187'^: there was June and .luly, and pai't ot August — it stood up first rate. '.1445. What was the occasion of that ? — It was dry, calm weather. 014i>. And wh}- is it that it remains firmer and better in winter than !!i summer ? — Because if the line should bo in the inuskegs or marshes nhen it freezes it becomes an insulator — ice is an insulator as well as 11447. Do you mean that if the wire falls on ice you can still keo[i up the cii'cuit? — Yes; it makes an insulation. 0448. Then may communication bo carried on during the winltv, Hc'iscn wiiy iiin- iilthoiigh tho wires arc not on the poles ? — Yes ; just as good as if they ""a'irinMUiao'r! ' iu'i'o raised on tho poles. !)449. Is that the reason you give that tho communication is better mtiinlaincd in tho winter than in the summer? — Yes; because J have known the wires to be down over a mile in winter in the muskeg and •lill to work well. 9450. During what portion of the time since you wore first engaged Novii- iicir' ;,l the Narrows until now do you tliink that the line has been properly proiu'r/.iy'jVii'aiii- i:iaintained ? — 1 do not think it ever was — there never was help enough '"■'» ''•• HI it, because if any trouble came up I used to have to start alono either fift}' miles east or 112 miles west, and I could not make over Wi\ miles a day, tho country was so wet and bad — that is my average un or twelve miles a day, and 1 am a good walker. I have walkc i titiy-six miles in a day over that line, but in summer time I could not make over ten or twelve. ■U51. What width was cut out througrli the woods in consti'uction ? rncniistrm tion [.,•.• r , I •! !• .\ I sixty-six IVel cut -^ixty-Hix loot on cacJi side 01 the poles. out on each suu- though at first 94j2. I understood you a little while ago to say that the opening Iwl^ity VeoL va.-oiily twenty foot ? — On the start tho opening was only twenty feet, and it was that way about a year befbro it was.cut out to the full I width. 9453. And during that early time the trees would fall and delay the [operating? — Yes; the line was hardly ever open. 9154. After that was that defect cured ? — About four times, to my knowledge, the trees would fall on the wires and knock them down ; its a rule, the timber was not good and the poles would rot down. In the 4n!< GONNERS 698 TeltiKr»pli — III«liitriii»ii<-p. Coiitrwot K«t« 1. Not miu'lO Jlllsllll'SH llulll' lUitlrl poll's (o 1)0 liad by (Irawlti;; t lii'in soino Iwt'u- ty-llvo iiillcs.l Poll-son liiif noarly all popliir. 05'per cent, of poles put up poplar. Mauner'ln which line was rt'p«ln.'(J. mti«kc;^s the jiolos wore not Hufficieutly well put up, uiul thay wo^ i full clown from tho wind utul froin natural chu.soh and lay in tlio water 1)455. Are you acquainted with tho husinosH done over tho liii(> now from your connoction with tho ortico ? — I do not tliinic thoro in umd liusinoHH dono, at loawt I do not moo much. 1 am in tho olUcc cvoiydav while 1 am in town. IU56. Arc you ahio to ju'lgo, from what you Roo or hoar in tho otKuc, whothor buHinoHS is boinj^ done over tho lino ? — There is sonio Ijn., nc'ss, hut I do not think Ihoro is much, from what I hoc 1)457. I)o you know whothor there is much complaint about ere noction bein^ cut oil'? — 1 never hoard anybody say anything about 1 boy do not seem to use the telegraph out there ; llioy di I not hi" [,, pay any attentia| reasonable distance, they are not; but if it is, thoy wore. Tlicy took the polos right off from the ground on which they put up the liiii', within twenty-five miles thoy could ha^'e got tamarack, and for tiixtvl miles on the lino tamarack grev, riiuxt through where they broiii: the line. For 162 miles of the lino thoy could hove got the tamanelii very close, within half a-mile or a mile. Then for fifty miles thiv could have got pine nearly as handy as poplar. 9465. I think you said a small proportion of tho poles actually |in;| up were not poplar. What proportion would that bo of tho wholes- Last summer thoy put up 9466. I moan on the firet construction ? — 1 think 5 per cent, woiii be an allowance. 9467. Then 95 pqr cent, would be poplar? — Yes; fully that. 9468. In the repairing and maintenance of tho line since that, luivij they used abetter quality? — No; they did not do it as well. Tin}] cut oft" tho old pole which was rotten at the ground and put it backii again, which made it four feet shorter than it was on construction. Tli' only piece of line that was put up in any shape was a piece that I putl up beforo I was interfered with. I put up a good line with new poplirj instead of breaking oft" the old ones. OHO 00NNER3 und they wou ! ly in tlio water or the line rinw : tluM'e is mini, ulUco cvory dm- Liur in tho otHcc, re is s(jmo bns; aint about th' /thin;^ altniii dil iHjt Hi I, I'Molf or any Y"':- ' it, and n yin; lo.se wliifli wii. K>ul twoiily-iiv' and tamarack, is used tor tliov years; hut tliov and put in, thoy i pally poplar ?- iick on it, alwiiil 11 Id be obtaiini y tive miloi> \> ;i| 'oi-e. Tlieyti)ok| )ut up the liiif. :, and for .sixty I re tiiey broui:li; fot the tamar.'K'k fifty niilesi tlii'vl loles actually \m\\ of the whole?- 1 per cent, woui'i lly that. ) since that, hiive I as well. Tlieyl nd put it backii j )n8truotion. Tli' I piece that I put j with new m>\'^ TrlrHri»|ih — M(«Tati«UMii<-f. By Mr. Keefer :- €outr«.i 2%o. i. \m')0. Do you moan broHi< thorn otVorout themott? — I mean I broke iheiii oft". When I would attempt to break one sometimort a dn/.en .vould fall. JIi/ the CiiaimuDi : — !,»470. Uow wf, Id tho fulling of one make the others fall? — lU-iausi^ •ihoy rot right at tho ground, and when a pole would fall down it would drag tho wire with it. ii47l. Was that bocauso thoy wore tied together by tho wire ? — Ves. ;U72. In what way wore you interfered with? — I was putting up a OM i.oie-* im.m| line that was costing about ^'.i.'.iO a mile by putting in new poles, but ^•I.pl\"!'iiir'.''r"' the sub-contractor, William Hilton, camo along and said wo would have to do it (juickor, and he used to bi'oaU otl llio old poles, pull out the (.tutnp and j)Ut it hack in again, which inade the pole very much whorter ami made a very bad job of it. The line 1 put up before I was intor- icred with was good, but they wore poplar poles. :U7'i. Do you mean absoluti "iy a good line or only as good as you !i)iil(l make it with po))lar ? — As good as I could make it with pojtiar, ihoroughly insulated and up in good shape., 0174. What do you say as to tho other portions of tho material ; ^i^oV's,I'^Mlw':'?,nVH> ibr instance, tho wire and insulators ? — The wire is good ; some of the insulators, insulators were not good. They are what they call a bracket and insu- lator combined. They are not good; but the wire and insulator material are all right. There are a few brackets not of first class quality, but it does not interfere with the line at al'. !t475. Do you think that portion of the work is as good an "a c(Mld be made? — Y'os ; No. 10 or 11 wire and glaas insulator, "'illi a few iu.su- luior and brackets combined — over half. Woulil oost iiioi'i) to rcinovi! Hue to !t47b'. Prom the nature of the country over which the lino is made, IS it jKJSsible to remove tho wire or insulators, or any portion of tho rinotii'iTiooaUoii ]ii'eHcnt line, to another locality ?— Not without a greater cost than new omi."'"'^° "^ what new material would cost, because a now road would have to he eat. 11477. AVhyisthat? — Because the second growth poplar is now as tall as the line, and it is impossible to get through without cutting a road for horse and cart. 0478. Then do T understand that it would cost more to remove this matorial to a different line than it would to obtain the same material tiir u new lino from other sources ? — 1 would sooner furnish new material than take up tho old one, as a road has not to bo cut before you can get it tioit- Nortli of Lake Mniiitoba. 1'479. What is tho nature of the country in the neighbourhood of the Narrows, supposing you were looking at it as i ])robable railway The Nnnows a route?— I think, as a probable railway route, it is the easiest in this fur/, J."*"^"""""^ country that I know of. 1 am a railroad man. It is level. Tho mus- ivegs, although they are wet, they are not difficult to get through. Six foot is the deepest 1 found, and that is the Crane Kiver Muskeg. It is what tiiey call the most difficult muskeg on the route. It has what thoy call a cobble-stone bottom, six feet from the surface, composed of \i: ^ > mm CONNERS 600 Hallway 1,« . \-' tloii— Nwi til Mf Lakn Miiultolia. B<'tf('rf,o Imve run rnilway around south oi" I>og I.ake than to have crossed It. C'rossiiii; at tho Narrows nhu;- loi'ii Tent deep; solid hottoiu ;2,7(l Through Mossy Jiivor. 1'. liv iia'> Ii;ica Cross! nu- .it Mossy Kivor ^rooil. '"iood pounti'.v he- t wef-n ScUilrk Jiiid tlie Narrows. 9488 And the ci'ossing at Mossy Jliver? — Tiiat is good. ! high banks on both sides, limestone. 9489. That is near Winnijjegoeis Lake? — Ves: ha'f a mile from it. 941/0. Do you say the crossing there is good for railway ])Ui'p'Si,N' — Ves; high banks of limestone formation. 9491. How wide would it be:— 350 or 400 feet: .tbout 400 ft--, 1 should judge. 24;'2. How is tiio line of count i-y between Selkirk and the Naivnw- of J^ake Manitoba? — (Jootl gr; zing and agricultural country and u'o! timber. Thei e would be no cuts ( r tili? Splendid tfrazint; <'oiiiitry. 9493. Is it level ?— Yes; very level. on it tov a railway. 9494. Js it settled at all ? — Twenty miles out tlieie are some sell ki'j. 9195. Is it settled at all uj) at Ibe Narrows, on the east side ?— X". but there is an Indian village thei-o. 949G. From tho Narrows out towards Fort Pclly are then.' iiiiv settlers? — There are no settlers. For sixty miles out there isaspiemlil ginning country — it would be a good country after it is cleared tbi j 601 CONNERS .nd Fort IMIv, 'f a milo I'iick iC tlO t'Uts (1' tili> 'rcl<'u;ra|ili — CoiiHtrilctioiit I'uutrnct A<>. !• Ritil^vay Loca- tion— iiifiiciiltural purposes, but it is timbered — that is, sixty-three miles itniu'it'obar west. Then Mossy Kiver comes in. and about lour miles west of that pirst class as;! i- i^good; and from that to the Apex — iifty miles— about Northcote, is a t^'uitmaicountry. limbered country — lirst-olass limber for railway ])urposos — pine and tamiiraclc ; it is lit foi- nothing but timber ; it is all muskegs ; but fi-om ;he A]iex to Fort Polly, is a first-class agricultural country. The Swan Jiivor Valley is the best valley I ever saw. fl407. What kind of land ?— I do not know what name you call it, liut 1 snp|)Ose it is rich alluvial soil, timbered in spots. lU'.).^. Have you any knowledge of the way in which the line of tele i^'rapli cast of Selkirk has been coiistructed ? — Yes. mOl). Have you been connected with that ? — [ am on tliat now. HoOO. TIow far east comes under your immediate^ notice ? — I have icon to Lake Docej)tion ; 1 have charge of the line to Selkirk. !)ri(ll. But you have travelled further? — I have travelled cast of Lake Deception about ten miles. 1)502. How has the line been con'^tructed tliere? — To Whiteniouth it Miu' in iiood ;< put Up in good shape; Irom Whitemouth to Cross I-ake it was put niouih: not so ;ip more carelessly ; it was put up more on the cheap plan from Cross J^^'/j^'in^'toVYoi!,'*"" Lake over sect ■.)n lo. It is a very dilticult country to put up a lino i,aiut up the line — they put it up too cheaply. Fcnm Selkirk to Whitemouth it has been put up first-class, but from Wliilcinoiith through to two miles ea-t of Jjiiko .iJecei)tion, it has not ireii put up right. 115(13. What is the defect over that last-inenliuaed portion ? — It must East of Lake D.-- iiavo been ])ut up too cheaply; they did not expend enough money on up'too^he'tu)!"!' :;. They did not put up pr'.os — the '.'ight kind of poles, or the right dnd of insulators. Kvcrythi'.ig has been done by men who did not know anj'thing about the \v>jrk, '.'504. What sort of poles have they used there generally ?—Tama- nu'k and spruce. i'5()5. Is the fault in the wood '.■' — A groat many of the judosare trees -awed off at the top They lay on the insulator and saw the top of the iLcotf; that r.akod an inferior pole, because the roots rot and they '.imblc dow ■ 950G. Do they kill the tree by that oijcration ?— Certainiw The line T.iiie n-oinSHkirlc lulross Luke is run in trood shape, hvery ]ioie is gooii ti-om Selkirk tiood. !') Cross Fiake. 1 renewed the line last summer — all that wanted re- ru'wal I^oOZ. Is that renewed at the expense of the Governuieut, or of the MHiatiuam.-. (iiiitractor's ? — At the contractor's oxpen.se. ItSOS. Who is that?— P. J. Brown. 0501). Is that one of the firm of Oliver, Davidson .*L- Co. ?— Ye?. p. .r. Brown, foiitractor-, repre- sent inn UMver, Davidson Jt (. u. !ir)IO. Does he take any personal charge of this matter liimself ? — [ !mvo never met him, although 1 have had orders to renew the lino at liis expense. I have renewed the line from Selkirk to Cross Lake, and it CONNERS G02 Teleifraph— Jllnintenaiife* Contract Aio> 4. No rtifficulty lu •communlcatlntr over eastern enfl of line by reason of Jiefect In the maintenance. Cannot say lino between 'I'luindor Bay and Selkirk well maintained, ticcause the rliflit men are not on It. Men einployt-d not the right kind •of men. TJuc not workln;^ iparf of last spring is in first-class order, Avith good polos and insulators. Further oast I know nothing about. 9511. Have you had any oxporienco of attempting to co^ nunicat; over the eastern end of the line? — Yes; it is difficult somolimes, ui, account of railroad men using it exclusively. They use it for runiiiii^- trains; but as far as trouble is concerned I do rot know of any. 9512. Has there been any difficulty in operating it on account of anv defect in the maintenance of the line ? — I think not. 9513. Then is it your opinion, as far as you have been able to foini an opinion, that the whole line, east from Selkirk to Thunder B:iy, h:i< been well maintained ? — No; I cannot say that I do not think thov have the right men on. 9514. What is the trouble? — They know nothing about tlioii- woik. 9515. How is that shown ? — B}'^ theii' movements. 9516. What sort of movements? — They know nothintj about te!^' graph linos; and it is like any other business: if they know iiothiii; about it they cannot take care of ,t. 9517. llcw would it show to a person going over the lino '.' — T coul i tell it by the splicers, and the work they have doi;o. 1 am a practitu: telegraph man; 1 have been at it all my life. 9518. Do 3'ou know what kind of splicers there are oa.st of Docu)- tion ? — 1 do not. 951i). How do 3'OU know 1 hey are not the right kind of nion ■'— 1 know they are not, 9520. How do you know ? — I have seen one of them. 9521. Who?— John Kobinson, 9522. When you met him whtit did \\ n find ? — 1 h-id not any rnn versation with him, but my comrade had. 9,'23. What did he say to him?— lie a- the trouble. *.% 603 CONNERS 'in-ther oast I CO. nunicaU' soinotimes, ui, it for runniii,' )t' any. iiccountof aiiv al)le (() form nder B:iy, h;h o(, think Thov t tlioii- work, 2^ la; about to.r know nothiii; line '.' — T couM um a practiciii eu.st of Decoji- i(i oi' men ?— 1 Telegraph— Malnteiiaiicp* d not any cmi- )mo down an! arno down aiiii Iks, I have g'': i-aph Hue. :ou any reasoii l)0C'Cpti()M ?— i [)ring when ii lat. 10 OpOl'iitDI'.'— c opeiui>'i''— , ; oi.se, iMi'! '" |)lo. ro. lie canu' id liio trouble. |)raclieal tea'- bolbre lie tii:'i- 11529. You mean the phice whoi-c the trouble exists ?— Yes ; ho could <"®"*'"«^* ««• *• not locale it. 9530. Who would be the best person to know about the time at which delays occurred in the operating ? — H. iVIcDougall. LI531. Why would he be the best person? — Because he is the super- intendent. 9532. Does he superintend all the way fronti Thunder Bay to Selkirk ? —1 cannot say that; he is my superiutender.t. 9533. I mean of this line from Deception to Thunder Bay ? — I think .-II. He is a tirst-class telegraph man, and if heliad hisown way abjut it, ii wuuld be all right. 9u i'i. Do you know whether there is much business transacted over F:xti'iii oiimisi- , ' ,0, iVom Selkirk to Thunder Bay ?— There used to lie. n.-ssUoM.-. [■:■.,.'». Doyiu know if there is now? — There is not so inucli since liie tiuvernment have taken hold of section 15, lio.jG. Does that affect the general business — jjubliu business ? — Ye.-*. DiKu. In what way? — Because the business on 15 was paid forwiier. Mr. Whileliead had it, but now, since the Government have taken hold of it, they have tlieir own o])erators, and everything is dead-head. 9o,'3S. Do you mean the business is still done, but not ])aid for? — li is !iOl paid for, '.'530. Was that same business, for the work on 15, ])art of the lusincss \>hich you say ii:red to be done and ])aid tor? — It was paid t\n\ Yos. 9540. Have yoii travelled over the comitiy south of the located lino HniUvH.v i,or«- iliuilway — • n-c'iu the line between Selkirk and Deception — so as to conVr««t« x<»«. know what -.on «' country there is from Shoal Lake Kast to Winni- iiautii.j. peg? — N-; ; J ) i;.)r. know miieh about ihat countrj- ; but from what 1 lio know 1 ihiii ,- iii<: easiest lino would have been south. Tiiere woula not have boon l ni'-oh rock. I'JH, You '"^ean the easiest line fur the railway ? — Yes, there would i-:iisi,>st hiu'wohm not iv^v" been so much rock; but there would be other dilticullies to '"»^^' ''«i-" >""'''• (i)ntend with which, ])erhaps, would have made up for it: there are Ijnger muskegs and higher hills. That is about all 1 can say. I think ilie line Houlh would have been the easiest location they could have I'Kiiwd ic, from my knowledge of the country, 9542. .; .xvoyou travelled personally over the eonntiy lioni Winni- peg lo .-ii ,' Jiaka Kust ' — 1 have lr:ive!lod from Winnipeg to Deeep- uoi'. both • i liiis line and off it ''.Vl3. How far south of the located line have you travelled it? — Aljuut seven miles at the furthest. '544. Then this opinion a))i)lies only to that jioilion between the piv-unt line and the line seven miles south ? — 'i es. 9545, Have you any moans of forming any julgment, from your own knowledge, of the line still further south than seven miles ? — 1 have not ; but 1 think, from wliat i have seen, the hills are higher, more diflicult, 1111(1 not so level. (► i; i^' CONNERS GQ4 Kailwity l. '^hC)'^. Cm yi)ii pi'odiK'o tliut book at any other time conver)icnlly ? — Vcs; I. till Ilk so. I have it in my trunk, but I have not looked at it for n loiif,' time. 1 can show it on the map without the b)ok. 1 put in thiec years in the country, and 1 know every part ot it. :)'){] L Did you Pay that at tlie Narrows there was a bank further inluiid which I'oso another fifty feet, besides the I):ink immediately at the water? — There is no bank at the water, but there is a bank back „!'it. It is fifty-five feet liighor than the level of the water. IKjiiS. That is the liighcst spot which would have to be overcome? — Vcs. ?'M. How high is it on the other side of the water? — About fifty !oi-'l. 95G7. How far is it between these two highest spots? — It is 2,700 teot across the water, 400 feet from the east shore of the bank, and •j.OOO feet from the west shore to the bank. 9,')G8. Do you make that eomefhing over 5,000 feet from the highest iioint on one side to the highest })oint the other? — 1 dare .say it. is aliout that. J never measured it, it is only a guess. li.jOO. Did you ever speak to any person about the state of th.e tele- ^rrapli lines east of Selkirk, and as to their being properly maintained or operated ?— Not particularly. i'570. Did you not call Mr. Rowan's attention to it?— I think I did to the line east, as far as I knew anything about it— that is to Kat ' Portage — b"t east of that I do not know an3'thing about it. 1 do not 'hiiik they had a proper man east of that. Railway Ijncit> (ion — Xoi'lli of liiilte itlHIlilollUi .\t till! Nnri'DWs a bunk back of wiUi'i' tiily-iiva ffct lugli. 2.71)1) fi'Pt ncro.s.s tlie v/atpr ; .'i,i)in» feet !)'n\vocn llic two liinhi'.sl, polnl.s. Tflesriipli— AiniiileiDiiice. Cniitract ]^o 4. -S:S le lake waioi "W[NNrpE(i, Monday, 4th October, ISSO. ,H>Ei-ii Whiteheau's examination continued JOSEPH WHITEHEAD. By the Chairman : — 9571. Von understand, Mr. Whitehead, that you have been sworn coatmci Ko.iSt icforo, and that you are still under oath giving evidence ? — Yes. 0572. Did you receive a telegram from me about the 23rd of last month asking you to appear again to give further evidence? — Yes; ;ii)Out that time. I could not speak positively to the day, but about that iime. 1)573. Look at a copy of the telegram dated 24th of September, now handed you, and say whether you ssent a telegram to that effect ? — Yes. 9574. Will you road it ?— " Cannot be in before Wednesday, 29th." I would have been in on the 2yth, but I missed my passage on tlie 2yth, and could not got in. 9575. Were you subpoenaed the latter part of last week ? — Yes; 1 was Bubpcenaed Saturday night. 957G. Is there any part of j'our evidence given upon any previous TrndeHng. occasion which you wish to correct ? — Yes ; there is that matter about Cornwall ; it was not at Cornwall it was at Prescott it occurred. I ! J. WHITEHEAD 606 Tcmlerliig— i'oittrati So. 15 Money piiiil to Charlton not at Cornwall luit at Prescott. ■Witness .siiK;;est- ctl to Mcliontikl to olFer Charlton pa^x-rs — Atl'fivd iiiipro" JUT inlliiciicc. Fomeinhcrs con- tract I'l being before the Coin- mltteo of Public Accounts. Mackintosh told him what was }:olnij; on betoro Coininittce. I.cfl (o under- stand that work might be taken out of his hands unless some Intlu- enct- was brought to bear. iiave Maokiiitosli acceptances. 9577. Voa moan the plfice where tho money wu.s paid by Mr. Mcl)onald to Chsirlton ? — Ve.s. Ji)/ Mr. Kc.efer : — 057^. You mean TreHCott Junction ? — Yes; Prcscati. .' '■ r.' ,„y phicc. It was not Cornwall, i did not want to go into the thiiu'at all, but he was anxious to go into it and pressed me into it ; and Isaid; " Ort'or $'J0,0()0 to Charlton, and get through it as soon as possible, " aiil he paid the mono}'', and 1 was not into tho mutter at all. i think 1 can find a letler that he wrote me to see Charlton and make some arraii 'c- mcnts with him, it' possible. By the Clunrman : — !357'J. Who urged you to do that? — McDonald, I think. 1 havr i!),^ letter, but it is at Clinton. 9580. There was tmother tnatter to which you alluded on tlu' |nv. vious occasion, that is, money or assistance in some shape giv t, Mr. Mackintosh ? — Yes; Mr. Mackintosh got some assistance li'oni im,-, 9581. Do you lemembcr the circumstance of the matter of contiac' l5 being before the Committee of ['ublio Accounts at Otttiwa?— I bOiievo so. I was not summoned, nor was I at the Committee, but I relieve there was something about it before the Committee. 9582. Were you in Ottawa at the time ?— Yes ; I think I was. 0583. If you were not before the Committee, how did you kiiow that it was going on before tho Committee ? — Mackintosh told me. 9584. What did he tell you? — T really hardly can loll you what h did tell me now ; he said there was a committee going on, and xirne investigation about section 15, and he blame 1 llaggart, 1 think, for getting it up. ft was supposed that section B ])COpie wanted to got i; Dut of my hands. I think that is about tho sense and substance ut i*. They wanted to get it out of me, that was the impression. 9585. Were you willing that it should be taken out of your hand-?- No ; by no means. 8536. Were you led to undersand that it might bo taken out of yoiv hands, unless some inrtuence were b»'OUght to boar to prevent it ?- Mackintosh gave me to believe that. 9587. How did he give 3'ou to l»clieve that ? — By telling mo thai there was a committee, and ho blamed Haggart for getting tiiis com- nuttee up to try to get the thing out of my hands. 0588. Did ho suggest any way to you by which that might bo pre- vented ? — I do not know ; I never thought much about it, and i coiiltl not tell you a straight story about it now at all ; at least, Ldid not know i that I would ever bo called to account for it like this, and I do not recollect the conversation that took place between us. He told me | there was a committee about it, and ho blamed Haggart for gctliiii,Mt up. 0580. Now after that, I want to know what took place on tlic siib-i ject between you and Mackintosh ?— Well, I gave him some of tliosli tliOMn iicc<.])ian(H'>-. A iiioiint oi ac- ci'ptaiiccs $ll,iii)i.' or $I'J,IHMI. Ilail iiivon hiiii iicccpiaiiccs IxMbro Koliiir, wliicli wcri' piiiil !>>• him and .some l)y witiics.s. .^^!l(■kinlo.sll always williiii; to (foasMH-m-lt y.ami tirid lionilsiiicu lor wit iicss. Tliiiil{.s Rain irot l)ai'l( all till' i>()ii(I.<« Kivi'ii oil tlijit itt(0S <'niitract Vfo. 15. Helping Ncivio pi«l»erK — Alh'K'i')! iiii]>ro« |l<'l' illllllCltCf. Th> yon still, as i'ar as you know ? — No ; 1 do not exj)oet they aie. 0fI04. VVhei'e ai-e the}- ? — Tie has not intend t) jiay them. DflOr). Have you and he talked ovei' Ihis mallei', so tliat you oijuM ascertain wiiat a(;ceptiinces he had taken up? — I do not know llial u\; have. He told me ho had some to take up, and ho had saeriticod .ioiiiv^'- tiling" to got them to satisfy the bank when they camo duo. 9()f)G. But is it from what ho told you only that you aro tiiiilor ;h'' impression that he took thein ii))? — That is all 1 know about il. DfiOT. Then as to those acceptances which ho .' — Well, ho was going up to Toronto and thei'o was a clerk who 1 liij.;, and his family were in great distress, and I think I gave him 8200 nr S300. ]le carried itup to them. His wife and family were ingrcatdiv ti'088. His name v,as Norton, and they were turning him out of the house. 9000. Bid you give him anything which j'ou got from Mcl)oiiahl— :i much larger sura than you name? — No; I thiidc not. 9G10. Do you I'omembcr the first occasion on which you gave any acceptances? — 1 really do not. It is some time ago — two or years ago. OGll. Do you mean tliat because it is two or three yoais you do not i-cmcmbei? — I do not recollect anything more dotinitc.y than 1 have told about il. 9612. Had he taken any part on your account in any oilier negotia- tions connected with your contract — 1.5 — besides this matter hefoiotiii Public Accounts Committee? — No; not that 1 know of. If over I wanted anything done in Ottawa I used to write to him, and he ii-seJ to see after it for mo; and whenever I wont down different times ani wanted sureties, he got them forme, and was surety for me himself, ariii that is all the bcnolits or assistance 1 had from him in any way. Ho was always willing to assist me and go my security, and always fouiil another whenever I wanted it when i was filling up a tender. 961!H, Were these tenders for work conncctod with the Paeilic Piaii- way ? — Yes ; I tendered for section B, and 1 tendered for section A, anl for two or three different other things that 1 do not remember of; but it was all for Pacific Eailway work for the Government. 9614. Did you say that these previous acceptances wnich you hal given to him before that night which you have describe 1, were on account of his assistance when you wanted to tender f.. the Paciti' Eailway? — Yesj from his complaints that he made that he wasombar 111! iiivyl mmm C09 J. WHITEHEAD im out (if . McDoiialii— :i rii*.?etl about his paper, and that it was likely (oi^o down, and because liifhi;* kindness to me on different occasions 1 tried to assist liirn. 9015. Do you know who were your i-ureties on these dillerent occasions ivhen you tendered for work ? —I do not ; James Goodwin was one, a I )lr. iiomobody else, who is a merchant down on Wellington street, and [think Captain Bowie was one— I do not remember. DtilO. J)id Mackintosh lead you to understand that when you made I these tenders, and he procured the sureties for you, th'it it was necessary rhiin to make any disbursements on that account? — No; he did not. |i()17. If it were not necessary for him to make disburseirents why I would you provide him with money ? — I would assist him in his busi- Iness. Ho stated his paper was going down. !)G18. I understand you to say that you used to write to Mackintosh I to help you in your matters? — Yes; if ever I wanted anything seen nftei' in Ottawa 1 used to write to him and he used to attend to it. 9619. With whom would you want matters seen after, as you call it? [-Perhaps with the Department of Public Works. I could not exactly ,,iy. Anything I did want in Ottawa I used to send to him. !IC20, As a matter of fact was it with the Department of Public Works that you wished him to negotiate or do business for you? — Yes. There was no person else, or any other place else, that I had anything todowith in Ottawa. 0621. Do you wish us to understand that you had given him these I moneys or notes because he had been useful to you in your negotiations I with the Department, or business with the Depai-tment? — No. I gave him this assistance purely for Ids own business. He was saying that the paper was going to burst up. He was embarrassed, and 1 tried to assist him in the way 1 have described to you ; and if ever I wanted anything, he was willing to assist me in getting securities, and going ray security when I was putting in ray tender. 9622. You have told us of that before ?— That is all I can tell. 1)623. You say that he helped you by attending to matters for you ? — Vort. If I wanted anything attended to in Ottawa, I used to write to him and he would see about it for me. 9624. Where would he see about tilings for you ? — In the Public Works Department. 9625. Was it because he had done this sort of work for you that you gave him this assistance ?— No. I told you before, when he assisted me, 1 thought one goqd turn deserved anothei*. 9620. Were these negotiations with the Department one of the good turns which you say deserved another ? — No ; I did not give him money for tliat at all. I gave him money just to assist him because be was always willing to do anything he could for me. '.1627. Did any person connected with any of the Departments lead you to understand that it was not agreeable to the Department, or to any one connected with the Department, that you should continue to do business with Mackintosh ? — I think it was the last time J was <"oiiti-a<'l .\<'. IS. Ilt'lpiii'; .\<'WM- u>»|ierH — |iro« illlllK'IICCt |iri SHrftltiR Mapklntiivli did not U'Ud liiin to boUevo tlier«> would he any (Usbursenu'iits nocossa I'y. Wished Mackin- tosh to do busi- ness for him ill connect ion wUli Department of Public Works, along with Sir Charles Tupper, when 1 bade him good bye, he said '■ Push on the work, and if you want anything write d Led to under- stand It was not agreeable to hc- partment that lu- should do busi- ness throuKli others, and Sir Charles Tupper • . „. .„ 1 told hhn to write irect to me, and .urcct tohimRcu. J. WHITEHEAD (510 Contract No. 15. Helping TieftH- A fir - per iiitliK-iiia-. Mackiiitosli (liforo the Committoo ui Public Accounts, was the name of any othoi I'lomber of Parliuiiiem mentioned to you except that of Mr, lluggart r— I do not thitdc it. 9633. Did Mackintosh at any time assist you in fllling uj) yom tenders for other works ? — No ; 1 made all my tenders up myself. 9631. Please describe tho sort of assistance that ho gave you in connection witli tenders? — lie never gave me an}'' assistiince but lie wjis my security, and if I wanted .security ho found one for mo. That was all the assistance ho gave me with my tender. 9635, Do you not remember who was your security on these own- sions? — I think he was one ; Goodwin was one, and McCJillivray, down Sparks street, and Capt. Eowie. ".•636. 'Js that the IJowie that is connected with the second 100 miles west? — He is tho man who runs the boat down to Montreal. 963Y. Who else wjis surety for you ? — I do not remember. Somo- times I used to lake sureties with mo fi-om Clinton. 9638. For which of these works did you use his iissisL-^iue in tendering or getting scciuities ? — I really could not tell you, us 1 ije not remember. 9(539. Were these tenders made in your own name ? — Yes. 9640. In the Blue Book of 1880, concernirg tenders for works on tho Canadian Pacific Railwa}*, I find on page 16 that your nair.e is ineiitionod sis one of tho parties tendering for section B, Eagle River to Keewiilin. and the n.;imes of sureties given for you are Patrick Kelly, E. Mcdillivriiy. iind Alexander Bowie. Are these the parties, or any of them, whom Mackintosh procured to be surety for you ? — I think it was Bowio ami McCrillivray, they are Ottawa men ; Mr. Kelly is hero himself. 9641. Mr. Kelly, the othei- one, is hero? — Yes. 9642. Did Mr. Mackintosh procure all ot these sureties for you, oi any of them ?— Two of them, I think, out of the three. 9643. Did you procure Kelly yourself? — Ye,s. 9644. By your own influence ? — Yes. (Ill J. WHITEHEAD I'or you, 01 CoiitriK'l No. 19. II<'I|»'|IU ^••Wll- r,\'}. Do you vumomlior whothof you tonaci'ol ibr thr wliolo st'ction in»i».i« 1 iXj iniles bosuk's Hcctioii \i f -\es. ,„.; i„ii,„'.,„.e, ;ii;4(;. J)o yoti tlunk )'oii lon'lorod for contra 'I A? — ^^•s. %[1. Dill yoii say who your sui'ctios woi'o on your toinU-r for thu |«lio!c I'^i^ inilo.s? — 1 did not. :i;;4S. Wero thoy procured fo:- you hy Maolurolie.s wore there foi- it also, but I could not say. mini). Upon the jirovious occasion you referred ti> the fact that ^•()u AssisteU iii.' win- lliial ^iveii assistance to some other |)a|)er besides Mackintosh's? — ^'es; J',','"-'^., ..'hMiM^r'" t|i:it is to this ono liere, the Tunes ; I gave mv assi^laucc to it and 1 took ]""''',-,'Vn|,V"' '^ |;uliattol mortgage for 811.000 on it. '"^ * ' lill.')!. Was that the whole amount of the assistance thai you gave? — (Jum' ^omr ninn-. h'li; 1 do not; think it was. 1 gave him some more in I he way of hel|iiiig liim with the paper. \K)1. ho you wish us to understand that il was an amount which liviisuni included in the chattel mortgage? — Y'es. till.').!. And for which you had no security? — Yes; tlu;ro was some Ai<>:int(.:i Fiviuli piipei' for which 1 gave ray assistance. i-iciu-ii \yA\H\: il'.t.Vt. Was that assistance in the shape of a gift oi- a loan ? — Xo ; it I \v;l^ ;i loan. IHlo."). A loan without secui-ity? — Ves. '.t(i5(!. How wore you induced to make that loan or gift ? — 1 d) ivt [know; we liad oidy one paper hereat, that time, and 1 had some icasons which 1 exj)laincd before, and that was the n^ason wh^ytliat thing came [iiito existence. %\)1. Witij whom did you negotiate about that mattiu' ? — With Muucyitir /'/(/if* 1 T„..l V mvcli Id 'i iltt 11'. I liuUe. 'Jii'jS. Where does ho live? — lie is in town here. IHi.V,). -Did he live horo for any time before you liad that transaction R«->«()tis im- iwiihliim? — Xo ; I met him either in Toronto or Ottawa, lie was ' yJ',:,'^'''''''® I'lililishing a book in Ontario, and he was publishing books in ibe 'Uiiil('(| Slates at different times, and he was a smart .sort of a fellow, !ati(i that is the reason 1 got hold of him. lt()()t). Whore do you say you met him ? — 1 think it was in T(»rt)nto [orOttawa. Ho came from MorUi'oal previously. '•liiU. Were you induced to make the loan or advance to him by any iderstanding that ho Avoidd be of assistance to you in your matteivs jconnected with the Paciti? Railway? — No; not at all. 1 do not know 1 any assiistanco 1 could get out of him any way. •11)62. Had you any reason to believe that he could intlucnco any |„lIi',.'v'irTufii,. illember of Parliament, one or more ot them ?— No. ' "•<>iit.i i)iiimM„M- I ' iiiiy .\lornb<'i' ol , rurliniDO))! •'Ooj. Are you aware of any rumour to the ctloct that your help to him wiw to obtain his assistance by influencing any Member or Members |of Parliament?— No. 39JL '; } J. WHITEHEAD G12 Contract No. 15. Il«l|»inir NrwN« I»n|M-rii- All«K« |I«)I' Illilllt^lK'K. No fonndiUlon for I'Miiour thai. his IMf)t,|V(! WHH to Jnlluenc-e homh.- M.P. ; WHiitud Induenocof l»apt'r. Avrr«-iiM-iit witli Sl(;n4iiiiil«l« !)()H4 Aid you not iiwai'c ot uii}' mucIi riiinoui'? — Not that I ktii)w i,| IHU;.") Was thoro any foundation for such a rumour? — No, I do not tliink it; of coumo ovory )»:i]»or hm its influonco, uud that is all that I wanted. !)Gi)6. 1 am not Hjicakin/^ of tho influcnco of the paper but iiiflucnic through the man ? — No ; there was nothing ut all of thai kind. Ofjn?. Upon a previous Dcoasion you spolco of a letter or agreonun; wliich u-m\ passed between you and Mr. Senator McDonald In refuroini to tho partnership on section 15, and you said then that you tliojglit it might be with Mr. Ruttan, who had been your engineer ; have yoi; searcliotl for it since ? — No; I do not think I have seen Mr. JJuttin since. ^)G()S. Tliut is referred toin a very indefinite way in the longer uiticl.^ of agreement which you producud, and wo informed you that wo \vou|,| like you to produce that letter or some copy orit? — I do not kipm anything about the letter; and you have those papers, oo, which I want o got back. !)(J(j9. We will discuss that again ? — Tliat paper refers to sonic loti-r, but 1 I'eally do not know where it is or what it is. j^O. Will you be good enough to make a search for it and lei have the original or a copy of it ; you remember you told us u, substance of your agreemont with McDonald? — Yes. 9(J71. And when you produced the formal article:-i ol' agrcenuTit between youi-self and Mr. McDonald, it alluded to a former letter or agreement which contained tho substance of j'our understanding?— It ii quite likely that Mr. McDotiald may have that letter hiniselfii llero is such a thing. I know I haven't, unless it is with Mr. 'RaUw, aid 1 think it would b? with Mr. McDonald himself; 1 do not know what it contained, it was the beginning of the transaction, the substamo of which you have in that agreement. KELLY. Patriciv Kelly, sworn and examined: coatVlTct K*. 15. By the Chairman :— Surety for AVhiteliead. 9672. Jlavo you had any business connection with any matter con- cerning ho Pacific liailway? — Nothing personal directly with thf road. 9(j73. Ilavo you been a surety for any person who tendered ?—Ye\ 9674. For whom ?— For Mr. Whitehead. 9675. Upon how many tenders? — I could not possibly say now, I rather think on two or three tenders. I would not exactly say, I have not kept note of it. There are two or three, or even more. 9676. Did you sign j-our name to any of these tenders ? — Yes. 9677. Where were you at the time ? — I was in Ottawa, I think, nn two occasions. 9678. Who else signed those tenders with you ? — When I ^^■:i'' j signing then' there was no other of the sureties present. 613 KELLY tr: ttwil I kriDW III. — N(», I do riiit hul M all that I or but iiiflui'iiir hill kind. luld ill rofureiHi' it you thought leor ; have yoi; jon Mr. liuiiiiii longer urticliK lU tliJit wo wouM 1 do not kiinw )o, which I want ■s to sonic lotttT, r it and lei ^OU told lis ua s of agree iiu'tit brnior letter oi erstandiiig?— it )ttci' himself ii ith Mr. Kutlaii, 1 do not kridw >n, the sub.stame Tfudi-r'nu— (OiilriK'l Su. IS, liG"!'. Who woro pre-cnt ? — I do not roniomhcr luiw. Mr. Whildu'ad |«;is piOhont (or Olio, and I could .scarcely .say who wu-t iirenent lor Iho I othor piirtics. !I(j80. Woro there many prosent?— Xt), there were not many present ; think tlioro were ono or two. 'j(]s;i. ^'ou cannot remember now? — The names I do not ; tor I did [not know their names, and could not mind them ton miniitcH after 1 [«aw lliom, for thoy were utrangers to mo. ll(!Sl'. Did you not loarn at the time who the}' were? — I might have learned the names at the tirao, but instantly forgot it. 968;{. I>id you hoar any negotiations as to the mode by which their Lecuritieti woro to be procured ? — No. DCRI. llavo you any means of knowing how othor sureties signed for I Jlr. Whitehead, or why? — Nothing that 1 can .say from personal know- 1 le*Jge . 'J685. Did Mr. Whitehead toll you? — Yes; ho has told mo once or twice, 1 think. y68fi. What did he toll you ? — That ho was going to got other parties. He told mo the names of the parties, at least, that were going as ■urclics. 91)87. That i.s not how ho was about to procure thorn to be nurotios ; [ am asking you what ho told you as to the arrangement ? — lie told me tlif.t Mackintosh was going to get one at least, either one or two sureties ' fur him on one occasion. 9G88. Did ho mention to you the condition on which Mackintosh was ^J^A'l^r'''';',''.''';' . n fi not. IIKiOtlOM to 10 procure the sureties r — J>o. him iimcomii- ' tions oil which 9689. Have you any means of knowing whether Mr. Whitehead Mitckintosh was 1 • T.. i • I ^ »• to procure mado a promise or gift to any ono in order to procure any sureties buretics. besides yourself? — No; I have not. That 1 knew nothing about. BAIN. any matter con- roctly with the tendered ?— Ye>. isibly say now, actly say, I have I lore. rs ?— Yes. ;awa, I think, nn >_VVhen I «';isj It. 4- pJKni'd to wltiicsR lilK assets In con- nection witli contract 15. For r; certain time trustee. Ht-IpillK lVr-»%-8- l»a|n-r>i — AI1<'^<-<1 iiii|iro- peir iiiilileitcfa Coniniiinlcated With Mackintush on subject of notes and accept- aneos of White- head. AlackintoHh |j;avc back hiilHand uoteR at oncp. it(Jl)5. Did ho Iransfor his i'ight8 to you ? — To a certain extent, j\., connected with tiiC tinanciai muniiiroment of hi-J contract. dijdii. J n what shape was t)iut ti-anyfer made? — By un assigiirneiit or sort of trust deed. 9 nt; his behalf? — For the purpose of becuring payment to hi^ creditors. 9()'J9. Then were you a trustee, as you understand by that docunidit, for his creditors? — llad the arrangement proposed been carried out I would hiive beet). 9700. During the time for which yon held this property inyoiirowi name, did you understand tint you were trustee for his creditors .'-I Yes; while the docinnent did not lake etlect until ail the croilitors h;i,| [ become jtarties to it, ^olne of tl)e creditors would not itgree t>> it, ;iiii the whole arrangement fell through before it really took ctTect, 9701. Was the property re-conveyed by you? — The whole thirijf wasj to be void, failing i.heasiiiK KcivN* paii<;i-H — All«-Ki'4i iiii|>ro> per iiiiliit'll<'f'« on that subject from his own book-keeper, Knew tliaf, Maek- iiitosh ha < upacity of trustee, in the way you have mentioned ? — Yes. 97-2. So that the book-keeper hatl had communication with you on the same subject ? — Yes. 9723. At the time of those communications you understood yourself In I'eproscnt all of Mr. Whitehead's interests ? — Yes. 9724. By virtue of having liad this conveyance? — Yes. 9725. So that between yourself and the book-keeper you were dealing iW) principal in the transaction ? — Yes. 972G In speaking to Mackintosh himself, did ho give you to undcr- i'laiid that the book-keeper had. been authori/.ed by him to come up here and negotiate — J mean, have you reason to think that the book- keeper had the authority which he represented he had? — Tt was certainly by Mackintosh's instructions that ho came hero; but I do not know what authority ho had to negotiate, as I understood lie jus^ came here to enquire. Dcjilt as a prin- cipal in tlio triuis- iiction Willi liDols- kcepcr. 1' BAIN G16 Coiiti-aci No. t5« l>ii jieru — AllfU'i-d liiiiiis>> |t<->' illllllCIICf* BooU-kepper of Maciklntoshwhen In WiiiHipeK, refcrretl to uotes ami bills. Bonk-kei^per entU'uvouriiig to colli rtilCOept- aju'ts. Told Mackln- tosb's book- keeper that hu would refuse to pay those notes. About a fortnlfrht after this, Interview wltli MackintosU took place. 0727. Was it from the bookkcoper or from Mackintosh that you ^ot the idea that Mackintosh had Hcnt an authorizc(i man lioro ?— I knew, oi' course, in the tirst instance, fi-om the book-keeper here: but in talking with Mackintosh ho referred to his book keeper havinj' been lierc. 9728. In communicating with the book-keeper, did ho mention the amount of the whole claim which he stated Mackintosh then had? — No: 1 do not think he did. 9729. Did he not mention the amounts whicii ho expected to bo settled by Whitehead, or his estate? — I do not think it; I have no recollection that he did. He simply referred to it as the notes and bills, 9730. Without remembering the amounts, do you remember wliethei it was a larger sum than that for which 3'ou afterwards obtainoij tho acceptances ? — 1 cannot say. 9731. Then, at that time, the book-keeper representing Maclvinlosh was not proposing to give up the acceptances, but endeavouring to collect them? — He said nothing to me about giving them u]). He spoke about collecting. He enquired about Whitehead's ability to pay some of them. 9732. Was not the whole object of your meeting and communicatiun to ascertain whether these notes were likely to be paid by Wllitollead^ estate ? — Yes ; I think it was the main object for which Smith canic I) me. 9733. Then the proposition to give thorn up must have come tVom some thought or intention subsequent to that ? — I think that in dJKUs- sing the matter with Smith, I told him that on behalf of the creditors from what I hoard, I should feel it my duty to refuse to pay those notes, those of them that were still held by Mackintosh. Some of the other creditors — some of the local creditors here — in discussing the whole position had referred to these notes — to some notes of Mr. Whitehead— as being held by Mackintosh, and expressed their strong desire that I should not allow Mackintosh, the holder of those notes, to come in as one of the creditors. 9734. In other words that Mackintosh's claim 00 any notes hold by him should be resisted by Mr. Whitehead or yourself, as representing the interest of the creditors ? — Yes. 9735. And did you intimate that intentim to resist to the book keeper ? — Yes. I think I did. 9736. Was it after that intimation to the book-keeper that yoii met Mackintosh in Ottawa ? — Yes, about a fortnight after that. 9737. And then, as I understand you, he at once proposed to return the acceptances which ho held ? — Yes. 9738. And it is from your previous communication with the Iwok keeper that you understand Mackintosh to have boon fully informed a^ to the position which Mr. Whitehead proposed to take with his cre- ditors ? It was not necessary to go over the ground with him ?— No; I think Mackintosh seemed fblly to underntand the position that I had intended to take before I went to him, and I inferred that he had learned that from his book-keeper. 617 BAIN i\ to the book- Contract IV o. 15. OT.^n. Was there any condition attachou to Mackintosh ftMvini^ up i»n|M>rN- thepapei- which he then held ?— Mackintosh stated to mo that ho had '*1h;1?[I',||',".V,hI,".. heard that Mr. Whitehead had been reportinf; that these notes had been obtained by Mackintosh improperly, and had been otherwise niakesa' I^muii- speaking very harshly of Mackintosh's conduct to him. Ho said tliat Jion that wiiite- lie felt very much annoyed at this ; that it was untrue that ho had ever exomVatiirir*''"'*" taken any advantapje of Whitehead, but, on the contrary, he had always 'i-'ti*-'- tried to assist him in every possible way, and that before givinj; up the notes he would like to got a letter from Mr. Whitehead contradicting some of the reports that ap])earcd to be in circulation concei-ning Mack- intosh's connection with Whitehead. I told hira that was a matter jietwocn Mr. AVhitehead and himself, that I had nothing to do with that, lie then, I think, drafted a letter and showed it to mc, and said that on that letter being returned to him, signed by Mr. Whitehead. the notes would be handed over — the 81 1,000 which ho still retained. I told him that if he would send the letter to Mr. Whitehead — ho was then in Winnipeg — and if he sent the letter up to Winnipeg to Mr. Blancliard, my partner, that ho would see Mr. Whitehead and seo whether he was willing to sign the letter or not. 9740. Do you know whether the condition was fulfilled ? — T know that the notes were returned, and I understood that the letter was sismed and returned. 9741. AVere the notes returned to to the office of Bain & Blanchai"d. you ? — Yes ; they wore returned Not.-s lotunic.i to offlcc <)l Hiiiii A- Hlaiu'hard. ;iw the notes amounting to 0742. Vou have seen the notes yourself? — Yes ; I answering the description of those which I asked for, «11,000. 0743. Have you a copy of the letter whidi Mackintosh dictated '' — T have not. 9744. Do you know whether any copy was kept of it by Mr. White- Nix-oi-y on.tttr. head, or any one on his behalf? — 1 know no copy was kept in the office, and 1 never asked Mr. Whitehead if be had a copy. 9745. Is there any other evidence connected witli this which you think ought to be given, and which would help \i8 in our investigation ? —No; I think nothing else that I know. Eeally I know scarcely any- thing else of my own knowledge. 0746. Do you know anj'thing else besides that which has been com- mnnioated to you in your professional character? — No; what is the dbjectoftho Commission? 9747. The object of the Commission is to enquire into all facts con- oi>jtHcr of J'arllanient is intorestetl. Sclinllz anil I!an- nci/^hbouihood of Selkirk, other than in a prof'e8sioiial f'!i| icily?— Y(K(| as solicitor for dilforent parties, and as tho owner of lands down iheic, I have had a groat deal to do with lands at Selkirk. 1)74!'. Are you aware that there has been any rumour that tho 'ora- tion of tho crotising is to be attributed in any degree to the interL',S(,.sof| persons having lands in that neighbourhood, and not entirely for niihvav leasons ? — I have certainly heard that report from tho very lirsL timel the lino was spoken of as crossing down there — that is, just hearing the rumoui'. 9750. I am speaking just now only of the existence of the rumour?— I Yes ; I have heard that rumour. 9751. 1 understand that you say you have held titles of land in tha; neighbourhood in your own name ? — Yes. • 9752. Have you held them upon any understanding by which aiiyi Member of Parliament or any engineer is interested in the proceeds of them ? — No; not at all. No Member of Parliament or engineer i> in any way interested with me, or ever has been, neither have 1 ever t)biaincd any information from either one or tho other that iiidueodmu to purchase there. 9753. Are you aware, otherwise than in your professional cliaiacler. Members''of'V'ar- of «ny Mombcr of Parliament or any engineer being interested in iiaiiieiitiioi.nns; lands' ill that locality before the site was fixed? — The only Meinljoi> landilown there. rn i- ■ /• i i .1 ^ 1 i 1 ^1 of I'arliament, as lar as 1 know that owns any lands down thciv, aie Dr. Schultz and Mr. Eannatyne. 9751. They would be able to speak for themselves? — But 1 do no; know whether they got them before or after. 1 know of no eni^inoor that got any down there. I do not know whether it was before oiiiflor the site was fixed that Dr. Schultz and Mr. Jjannatyne got lands down there. 9755. A re you aware, otherwise than in your professional ca])iici(y, of any trust, not expressed in tho titles registered, by which any Member of Parliament or any engineer of the railway was interested in the land iterotV'aiMiaino'nt in that neighbourhood before the site was fixed? — I have no kin wleili,'i' tat'oi'i! '"' "''^■''"' of such a trust either prolessionally or otherwise. 975(i. Are you aware of any other matter, except in your pro[e.>sioiial character, upon which you could give evidence to the Commission con- cerning matters referred to them, so as to assist them in their investiga- tion? — There are .some matters that I suppose come within ihe scope of tho Commission, but ray knowledge of them camo to me fir.st jjioi'os- sionally, and that afterwards as trustee I have had to follow them up, but my knowledge of them, in tho first instance, 1 may siiy wa> gathered professionally, and there are others of which I can only speak by hearsay. Jt places mo in rather an embarrassing position, having acted as solicitor, to have to speak of huch matters. 9757. Wo wish you fully to understand that we have no desire to encroach upon your position ? — I do not think it would bo proper for mo to speak of any other matters than those of which 1 have spoken '! 9758. Then we are to understand that, as to any other matters, you claim the privilege that your profession gives your clients ? — Ye.s. 0759. You made allusion to matters of which you obtained knowledge at first in a professional char.ictor and of which you learned raoreaftii- No knowloili;e of any trust not ex- pressed In titles nj' which ail en;rlne(>r or .Mem Refuses to speak of ot her matters as known to him proiesHloually. ProlPssional prl- vllei^e. 619 BAIN JRailiviiy IjOvm« lion— rt'iirds ; do you \vif>li us to uiiderstaiul Unit wliat you lournod lU'lei- **cr,"ii*ni. wauls was while yon occupied a fiduciary diaiacter ? — Ycm ; in tlio lirst inblaiioo HOine mailers camo to my knowledge acting ])fofossionall3', afloiwaids while acting as trustee, and during all this time J acted as >olicitor too, and in my own mind 1 am not able to separate what I learned professionally from what I learned as trustee. During all the lime I acted as his fcolicitor and 1 am acting as his solicitor still. the rumour?—! e no kurwIeiL'i' M. M. Thompson, sworn and examined ; By the Chairman : — !t7C0. Where do you live? — I live now at West Lynne. !)76l. Have you lived there long? — About a year. !)T()2. Before that whore did you live ? — T was living at Cleai- Springs, thirty miles east of that, before that. I)T<|iiiiK. •)l all the stores and jjlant, and as assistant superintendent. 0772. Are we to understand that in the absence of ^fr. Siilherland you were responsible for the proj)er management and disj)osilion of all the Government property ? — Yes. 077.1. Had you any personal knowlodgii of the books that were kept ?— Yes. 9774. Had you a separate set of books for the works as distinguished system 01 hook- from that of the stoios ?— The stores were kept fi-om month to month. ""«•""'■'• Wc did not pay so much attention to the store- book, only at the end of In Hut?li Sutlier- laiul's ubsonce r('spon.s|t)le for inunau;i'nient ol' all tlie (iovorii- nient projierty. ^ THOMPSON 620 Fort Frnncrs I^ock— Iioufc-kcrptng> Undei' witness were 1 ho foromaii tor limber work, atul Mie foreman for rook work, the store keeper, time keeper and liook-keeper, the rest labourers. Pay-rolls Includ- ed all wa^es paid. Maiin4;fiiii>iit of ^vairk. Witness checked wa^es and time ; .lames MUher- liind prepared the j)iiy-rolls. HukI) Sutherland or witness em- ployed men Just «8 It happened to Jte convenient. each month there were stutcments rcndorod from the stoiws to the general oflico and they were ineorpoi-ated in the gononil booIcH. 9775. Then these store-books kept in the store itself were intended only to sliow the tran^action-s of the store during the period you have named ? — That i's all ; just the receipts and do liveries. 977*3. In 80 far as this transaction affected the general business it was shown by the books at the general otfice ? — Yes. 9777. Do you know whether there was a set of books kept in con- nertion with the works? — Yes. 9778. "Who kept those books? — James Sutherland. 9779. Was that wliat you call the ger.eral business, the general set of books? — Yes ; the general books. 9780. Was there a subsidiary set of books kept for the works alone? — Not to my knowledge. 1 know there was not. 9781. What officers had you under you, conti-oling the men? — Wo had a foreman on timber work, a foreman on rock work, and the store- keeper, and time-keeper — book-keeper. y78"_'. Were the other persons employed labourers or men of that clas.s? — Yes. 978.{. Do you remember whether j'our pay-rolls included the names of those otticers as well as of the labourers '( — Yes ; the pay-rolls included all wages paid out. 9784. Yours among others? — Yes. 9785. Who had the responsibility of preparing the paj'-rolls from time to time? — I had the i-esponsibility ot checking the wages and seeing that the time was correct. Jame:? Sutheidand prepared the pay- roll-:. 9780. Who employed the labourers and fixed upon theii-pav?— I employed a good many. Mr. Sutherland employed men just as they happened to be required, or whoever was authorized, or wherever the men could begot. Sometimes we wanted men at Thunder Bay and some pariios would be employed to hire them there. 9787. J)o I understand that, as a matter of fact, you or Mr. Suther- land employed the men just as it happened to be convenient? — Yes. 9788. Was theie any one else who employed thorn? — Yes; in parti- cular instances where thoy wore authorized by us. 9789. Can you say now whether, as a matter of practice, the pay- rolls wore carefully investigated at each period ? — \"os. 9790. And certified ?— Yes. 9791. Did you take part in these certificates? — I took part in the checking of the pay-rolls and seeing that the men's accounts were pro- perly extended, and balances properly carried out, and Mr. Logan and Mr. Sutherland certified to the pay-rolls. 9792. Did j'ou certify to them under your own name ?— I will not be positive about that ; it is some time since and I have almost forgotten. I remember chocking the pay rolls and helping to pi'eparo them. I think i did though. 6'il THOMPSON al business it the ifeneral sot works alone? )r men of thai -Yos; in parti- Fori Fi'iiiiCi'M "^ L. Kiinionrs that witness had re- ceived advan- tas^es, hccanse of his conneetion witli Oovern- nient works : )>oiler ; lut-li<'. ;t8')(>. |)()yoii I'oinetnbor whal I'elation it bojir.s to the wage-* of wlii(( men? — The Hiitno thini^, !is fill' !H lalmiiriiiLC nion wcvo conconuvl. [ remetnltor that (hoso wo hail lit the [lil I'of a whih* wo p.aiil thom the satno wages as to white men. !)cS07. Do yon fomcmbcr the system thsit was adoptetl in payinonl i4 hvbomors, wlion tliey wei'o pai'tially pi;'(i by goods, ami llie means bv whicii that would be ke))t ti-ack ot ? — We had iK^thiiig to do with lveoj)ing track of what thoy wciv) paid l)y goods. We ptiid none oftlu-iii by gooiis. 080S. Yoti j)aid thom when they were taken out of the (roverntnom stores? — Wo dill not pay them out of the (Tovortiment stores. Shortly after J went there they were paid out of the (roveriimont stores, Inn the store was afterwards ptirtod with. S>SGn. While tiiey wore so paid out of the (lovernment stores, do yon remember the system that was ado])ted ? — The amount of goods wii- shown on the pay-roll. 9810. Was there a sopai'nte column foi- goo;ls and for money?— Speaking from memory, [ believe that they wei'o separalo. 9811. But you tliink, at all events, the pay-roll does exhibit the pit/ portion of goods and money? — Yes. 9812. After the Government ceased to pay them in stores, do yon remember what system was adopted as to debts that they would v\\i\ in other stoivs ? — We woukl not become responsible for debts at all. Lut the persons that trusted them look out for their own pay. 98U?. Had you control of any ot the modes of transportation to anl from the Locks ? — A'es : I had of all. 9814. Were yoti in any business while you were under paj' of the (lOvernment on your own account ? — No. 9815. Did you I'cmain at the Lockb as long as the woi ks were bciiiL; carried on ? — Very nearly. 9816. About how long biifore ? — T came out about the 1st of Xovcm- ber, and 1 do not know how long they ditl work after thai, !I817. Are you aware that there were some nitnouis Ihat you liaii obtained some advantiige on your own account, because of your con- nection with the Ciovernmetit works? — Yes. 9818. Can you explain gonorally the substance of the rumouis, and what account you give of it? — I have hoard some of them. I niav not have heard them all. In the first place, I was reported to have got some machirery f()r nothing. Some boilers — one of those boilers, I believe, is charged to my account in the Fort Frances Lock accounts. The other boiler and the spring waggon I bought from Mr. Bethune, the purveyor of the Canadian Pacific I?ailway, and gave hira a clieiiiio on the Ontai'io Bank, Winnipeg, for thein. 1 also had a small lallii: made at J"\)rt Fninccs by the engineer oi" machinist there, which he agreed to make me on overtime, for which 1 agreed to give him a hai( of floui', which I bought in Mr. Fowlev'.s store; and the blacksmith, loi' doing what was nocossai-y on thai, Igavo him a 310 overcoat {'or that and some other little jobs he did for mc, working overtime. 1 bought that of Mr. Fowler. J had a littl) account with him. I believe those are about the only things I heai-d. G23 THOMPSON ngos of wllih Duconioil. I id tliuiii Ih: I |)ayinoii!. nl lio inouiis Ijy to tJo with HOMO ui' them Govern mom •I OS. Shortly il .stores, hill stores, iloyoii of goods \V!I- "or mone\- ?— I. hil»it ihe pro" tores, do you would I'liii ill s ut all. Lot "tivtioii to :iiiii r pay of ihr cs were Ixiii^ st ol' XoVi'.lll- t. ihfxt you huii of your coll- rumouis, uiul ioin. 1 may rtol to have those boilers, ock accounts. Mr. J}ethuiK', him a cheiiuo small hillic ro, which \w ve him a liai( acUsmith. tin' overcoat for overtime. 1 im. I believe Port Krn iicfx Lock- liSlll. It is said that befoi-e you bought this boiler or engine you had ''V'innNwVnoii. jitrcpiiired ut the fJovornment'H expense with tlio view of ))urehasing |jtv_Xo. ; that boiler had never been touchol. Tliere was a small |eiii;ino and lathe which did not belong to the ffovornment at all before Ijifot it, and he took Home little time and cleaned it up and made some |ri(iitions of the lathe. The only ai'ticles from the (rovernmeiit were Itivn boilers and the spring waggon. ',1320. One of those boilers was taken from ihe boat, was it not?- — So. !)S2! To what use had it been i^reviously put? — It had l)een used in iioii.-rinui i.i'..|i 1 , u 1 Ti- used nil Heii nboiit on Jied liivcr. kivit. Ii<2-. Not in your time ? — It had been used when I was running the I'd liivcr route, and it was lying at Fort l'" ranees when J went theic. ',tS2o. It bad boon detached trom the boat ? — Yes, |i82i. For how long? — I could not say, for these i)oilors were some- ItniL- changed around iVom one place to another ■• s they were reipiired. ptwas not detached with any intention of my '-uying it. 9825. Had it been repaired shortly l)eforo it was detached? — Xo ; Uthor of the boilers had been detached by the machinist lor repairs, fomy knowledge. 9S2n. Had you a farm of your own about the time you went to ilic «rn!ks?~Ves ; before I went to the works I had a farm. !i82t. Did any property go from the works to your ftirm? — Y'os ; \\i- property that I got. '.'828. Is there now any ]iroporty on your farm got from the riov(M'n- ti'iit?— No; not that i am aware of. 9329. Were the prices j)aid full value in youroijinion ? — Yes • if they |iad charged more, I should not hiive taken them. I'SrlO. As to the transportation of that projierty by Government means ''"''' i\'r trans- it transportation, what do you say ? — I sent them to the Angle when .•m^<>i!s inTm :u raon were going out. I put them in the Government boats nivsclf '^'"'V'".^^ I'.^' . • mil took them out at my own expense, and I paid Charles Nolm for ciiCn.'. '(ti-ansport of that stuff fi'om the North-VYest Angle to Pointe du '531, In the purciluise of the property, was there any understanding It yon should have it transjioi-tod at the Government expense ? — No, tliinlc, more than to the North-Wost Angle. !'!32. Was it understood that you should get that transport to the oith-West Angle ? — Yes ; to the North-West Angle, as it did not cost il' Government anything. '^'*33. I am not sure, but I thiniv there is a charge against you of 820 i'lhiit transportation, in the books, which you allowed ? — If it is, it is le whole cost of the boiler. It may have been ]iart for the boiler and |i:ti't for transport. However it was put at u lump sum. ■'"34. Do you remember what the sum was? — I do not remember iJ'-'-V",',*'" '"'''' stinctly— it was .somewhere between $135 and 8140. •fiSi). Whore had that boilor been before you bought it from Mi Bethune?— It was down on Pino Lake. for Oollcr, THOMPSON 624 Fort ■''i-niicva Ijock— • TIm- Hoiirr TriiilMncltoii. I'l-li'i; orniiotlicr boiler t»tJ or ^iU.'). )il)oul. Iioller wllh HukIi Sutherland Took iiat't. Ill de- livery and Iraus- icr ofg<»od.s !it (Joveriiiiicnt store, and priced them when tnrn- t'dover lf). Wliero i.s Pino L:iko ?— Uulf-wuy bolwoen Fort Fruiices ;nn 'I'luiiidcr Bay. !)SM7. Wus timt proporty over which you had ch.ir<;o in your oitii ti fhiiraclcr? — Vcs ; 1 hud hud chJirj^tj of it. I will not siiy Ihut I hu chargo ofit jiiHt at tliiU time. I thitik Miv Bothmio had chur^o ui just then. !)83S. Was it property tliat had ijcen phicod in his chat-f^o hotoio \ ,| h)u^'ht it? — lie had never used tliat boiler. I sujjpose it was \>mi the Jlcd Jliver route jilant which had been placed in bis chaiyu, I i| this boiler ho did not use at all, 9S31). Do you remember the price of that one ? — I think tlio lioilei or waggon was $80 or $85, 9840. What was the power of the boiloi-? — I (hink betwoeii thici four horse power, it was a very small boiler. I)8il, With whom did 3'ou make the bargain about the other boileij — Mr. Hugh Sutherland. Mr. Bethuno lott mo instiuctions for Mi Sulhorland to sell any ot the plant that he could. J[o loft ine veihij instructions at I'ort Fiances in Mr. Sutherland's absence! to sell any the Red River plant that he could sell, and I told Mr. Sathoiluin.1, am bought this boiler from him. 9842. Did you take any part in the an-angement with Wilson ii> i| the purchase of the Government stores ?— 1 took a part in the doliwn and transfer with Mr. Logan, and I priced the goods thai were Uiin over to Mr. Wilson. 9843. Was the arrangement of the transfer made with you or wiiij Mr. Hugh Sutherland ?— With Mr. Hugh Sutherland. 9844. In the prices fixed upon that occasion on the goutU thut Mii Wilson got, do you know the basis that was sidopted — on wh()lo>ak' retail prices ? — Wo made no discount. W^* fixed them at wlKitcvortliL']! were worth there according to invoice. Wo did not go acconlin;' t1 invoice in all cases, because there was a lot of old stock theiv. Wetiwl whatever price we thought the goods wore worth, having 111 view m original cost and the cost of transportation . 9845. Had you any other dealings on your own account about (Jow ment property ? — No other ; not to my recollection. 9S4G. Did you take any part in fixing the price at whirh Mr. Wil: I'cturned goods to the Government stores? — Yes; 1 was the ono ilai Mr. AVilson had to agree with in reference to those prices. 9847. I mean of his goods? — Yes. 9848. Can you say upon what basis those prices were fixed?— Tlu' were fixed at % lower rate than goods were usually soi.l for on the \)o^ age on account of being taken in quantities, I do not remember aiiJ rates in paj-ticular, but I say they were at a lower rate than they wi'i^ usually re ailed for, 9849. Upon all the transactions hud between Mr. Wilson and ainj one there upni the Government behalf, do you know whether he ;,' any marked advantage ? — 1 know ho did not. 9850. What was the size of the larger boiler ? — About, I should ":iy| from eight to ton horse-power. Probably ton horse power. THOMPSON Fort Fi'jinecs m I think tlic liDJIel V bctwocn t!ii'(vi :ount about (.rovor K«irl FriiiirtH ijook— 9S:)1. Wa.s it fluo 01- tubular ?— I-Muo. ''Tr.nIl«riM»ii. 9352. What was it U8od for (it'torwards ? — It was not used at all. 1 jlniii^'lit it on Hpoculation and it turned out bad. I calculated to lalio it |out on my farm. 9853. Do you romombor tbo ditforont books which wore kcj)t in the Book kniiiair, l^'oncral ofiico ?— Yes ; I would know thorn if I was to hco thorn. 0854. Do you think you could descri bo tho sort of b)oks that wore sysiom ofimok- Ikept?— Yos; wo liad a day-book, i think a day-book and journal wore '*''«^I''"k- liipeiiod, if 1 romombor right, lodger, cash-book, largo time-book, lotter- llioolv. 1 think those wore the principal books which were kept at that liime. 11855. Wan James Sutherland, the bookdcoopcr, considered to be under Ivour control ?— Yes ; that is I never interfered with his book-keeping, j'honsultod with him and ho consulted with moon all entries that wore Imado —prices and all that sort of thing — although I nt^vcr took any jcontrol uvor his stylo of book-keeping. 985G. Were you next in command over the whole business under Mr. iSuiherland ? — Yes ; I acted for him in his absence. 9857. Do you remember whether there was an original book in which lentrios wore made before they ajipearod in the journal or day-book — I whichever that may bo ? — No. 9858. For instance, was there any blotter from which entries would [bolakontobo made in the day-book? — Xo; the entries wore made lirect in tlio day-book, from statements from the store, statements I from the timo-keepor, and so on. 9859. Do you remember whether payments made at odd times would I appear for the first time in the cash-nook, or would any record of those be kept in a preliminary book such as a blotter ? — It appeared in the I iiish-DOok. 9860. You think the entries first appeared there of payments made in small sums ? — Yes; I think if you examine the cash-book you will find all those in detail in the cash-book. I might say that the ca>h was entered up from Logan's statements — the paymaster's statements. 98(51. Would Logan have the control of moneys before the record was kept in the general office ? — No : any money that Logan had was I charged to him ; but Logan would have to pay out the money botbre the record could bo made in the general office. 9802. Then, do you remember — according to your memory — was it syst( m of payii- thc sj'.stora that he would bo charged in a lump sum with whatever '"""^'^" money he got, and that ho would ask credit on account of wages ? — Fur small amounts, during Mr. Sutherland's absence, there would bo a Miiall amount drawn and left with Mr. Logan and charged to Suspense Account, which he would have to account for afterwards. 9863. Then ho would have the preliminary record of small pay- ments? — Yes; and ho would hand in the vouchers for them with his btiitcmont. 9864. Do you remember how it was managed when Mr. Hugh Sutherland would got sums to bo disbursed afterwards on account of the Government ? — In the same vvay. They were charged to his .Sus- pense Account, and ho would account for them and hand in his statc- 40 THOMPSON C>2C, ^^ Fort *''rniic<-« Bvtoh-Ut'i'iilnK- HtuttiiiicntH (iC dlBbnritiiinents maUe by Hiithei- land und IjOKnn enteroil In lull In vasb book. A 4'liiiiii. Upsponslldc for .■?!l(l wlilct) ( iov- «riiin''ut refuses to im.v. morif :vIoii<^ with the vouchers for tho itoms. That will all show in d,, books. 1)8G5. Do you remombor whclhcr tho.soHlfitomonlH whii'h wero \nm\(>,[ In by Mr. Sutherland on his bohiilf, and by Mr. Logan on his holmlt will ho entered in full in tho oa->h-bo()k, or only tho result oCiiiem?- in full in (he ''iish-bool< — tho items will appear in tho eash-hook. "8(Jfi. The full details of each of these items?— Yes. 1)807. Jh there any other matter which you think would assist nur investi^'ution, or regarditii; which you wisli to make some oxplaiiation ?~ Nothing (hat I remember Just now. There are rumf>urs of atl'airs tJKif which you havo not touched upon. 9868. If you can atisist us in tho investigation wo will boglal tolna: of them ? — IMioro is nothing in which 1 can assist you in showing,' thm- tliero is anything wrong in reference to tho management of the woik- at all. 98(J9. iJesides the management of the works do you think tin interests of tho Government !ind the public wore propoily protectel' — I think so. 9.-i70. Is there .anything further which you wish to saj' ? — Nolliin. further in connection with that. 1 do not sujjposo it would come iiiidfi that business. 1 wish to ask a question. After 1 left Fort Fiances theiv were two horsc:H sent out hero for supplioH wliidi had t«j l)0 taken in there for (hat u inter. I had to become responsible for some tobogiraih and shidts to get these supplies in. As that account has not been settled and the man threatens to-day to sue me if it is not paid, I would lila to know if the Government would settle it, or what is to be done? 98V1. Wo are not empowered to do anything connected with it, Im; I havo no objection to hear your statement if it is connected with tlu canal works? — Tho account was sent in to tho Dopai-tment, hut n<' notice was taken of it, at least so the part}- informs me. 987-. l>o wo understand that you havo madoyourself answoralilofoi an amount which tho Government refuses to pay ? — Certainly. 9873. What amount?— Slii. 0874. To whom is that due ?— To Thomas Lusted. It is a small atViiii but J do not wich to i>ay it when I havo no benefit from it. 9875. Is there any other matter on which you wish to give evidence.' —No. JOSEPH WHITEHEAD. Kailwav Coiio utnicUoH— CoiitriK'f Xh. 1.5. Oov<;rnment made iidvaiicos lo witness from thi- 10 per cent, on .$I,SOO,0,mK iiSHl. So lljni you Imvo received fiotn liiiu' to time, out of lliosi.) ailvaiiee-i, hoiiI' iliing like S10-"),0uO moi-o lliuii your contract cullol t;,| y — Yt;rt j riHue than my estimates, that is a.i near as 1 can iv'll. 1)SS2. With liom did you negotiate to iiave that return made ? — 1 a>Ueil Mr. Alacdtenzio, and ho ordered Mr. 'J'riidea'i to icil the accoimtant to jnuUo advances out of tlie IK per cent, nionc.-, and iikov'ise Dr. Tiij)pei' has (h)no it. 1ISS.'{. Won you present when each of those ujcntlemen told his s 1. 'ii'dinatc I'Hicer to da it ? — No. He spoke to llie mcssciiircr out of 111- (itlice. I f.polce to Mr. Mackenzie in his otlii-e, when lu- was in iiowcr, !ind likewise to Dr. Tuppcr. lie would rinn' the hell and ^ive iiistraclioiib to Mr. Tnideaii, his deputy. :iS8l. ^\ ore these amounts returned to you in con.v'riiuMK'e of u s.iuh a largo sum, ami we are anxious to ascertain what other reason si'/, UMUor^Mvi'iiMT thorowas? — There was !io other reason, only just wluit I have told vou. M'tcK-intosii ' •' •' " iiioiu'y. 0890. Are you still of the opinion that at the conversation, when your matter was before the Committee of Public Accounts, there was no larger sum than about S11,000 given? — No; nothing else, at that lime. 0801. And you say that the whole amount was about $25,000 ?— But wiioicaniomit this 811,000 is to be deducted off it. "'""" *''^'''"*'- 0802. Then that would leave something like 814,000 or more, which Ma.kiniosii paid I „ . 11 .1 oil • I ' i' ^ 1 . 1 i. some of tln' nolCH lie got tor other reasons r — Ue ])a]d some oi the notes and acceptances ^i,,.,, tm.y himself when they became due. ix'caim'din' t.ut '' illd not i;lv(' tlu'iii 0893, But were they given up to you ? — lie ))aid them and kept "'' thtMii. 0804. But you do not know, do you ? They may be outstanding, so far as you know, in the hands of some other jiarly ? — 1 do not know but th^v may; 1 have not hoard anything about it. J. WHITEHEAD 628 Railivay Coiiai Ntriictlou— Contract >«». 15. Note J iciveii to niacklutoNlia Mackintosh got Beourlty for him Htid was III (lilfl- cultleH and he helped bim. Mackintosh un- dertook to get acceptable ■urellCH. Put up a cheque lor $r),(HiO. CONKLIN. 0895. Do you moan now that I should Uiiderrtfand that you ^avc him thoso notes, originally amountitu; to something over Sli.ooii, bosidcs wliat Mr Bain got baciv, oriy because ho had helped 3-ou in m;''cing out tenders and getting 8er,irity for j'ou ? — He never hoipol m J to nialvo a tender. 0896. Well, to get KPCiirity ^or you ? — Yes; that is the way I ^ot into it, and I went further than I intended that he sliould have gone. lie t-aid ho was embarrassed and 1 tried to help him. 0897. Is there any other reason that you can give us for havin)' given such a hirgo sum as tliat ? — No ; 1 have told you all I know There is no other reason. 989S. At the time that you say Mackintosh procured some suretio for you, had you any impression whether they were persons of .stand- ing, pecuniarily, I mean men of sufficient means to be of any help?— 1 do not know what they were, but the (Tovornmont accejited them, and as long as the Government accepted that is all I wanted. 9899. Did you then liavo no imiH'cssion about it ? — No ; T had not. 9900. Was your arrangement with Mackinstosh that he should tiinl good and sufficient security fci- you ? — There was no arrangemoni oi that kind ; 1 told him I wanted good persons. There were more thaii those that you recollect this morning. 1 kept no memorandum oftlioui. 9901. Did you say that as long as they were accepted by the Govern raent il;"y answered all the purp(>ses Mackintosh undertook to supply — That is all ; ho undertook to do it, and got satisfautory persons that the Government would ac(tept; but I did not got the contract, and thi' question never came up as to the other, 9902. Those sureties were to bo persons who wore to be answerable in case the contract would ho awarded to you, and not that the contiaci should bo open ? — Provided I got the contract tiiese sureties would havo to stand until the Ciuitract was finished. 9903. Besides that undertaking to be surety for you if you got the contract, it was necessary f tr you to put up some security at the timo vou tendered, was it not ? — To the Government? 99('4. Yes? — I would have to put up 5 ))er cent.: I put in a ch('(|ii(.' for $5,000. Mackenzie used to ask for a $1,000 choque to be put in, Imi this Government asked 8.5,000 cheques. 9905. Was any part of that kind of security paid by Mackintosh ?— No ; it was my own. 9906. So that the only benefit he did, was to find some rorsoii who would become answerable in case you got the contract? — Yes; tluii was willing to do it. Nixon «• I'ny- ■naiitf-r-i.'ii«l' Pnrv<>y<»k-Nliip Hook-kerpiiiK. El!as G. Conklin's examination continued: By the Chairman: — 9907. Have you had the bo ' which you kept for Mr. Nixon, in Has hpii bookH your custody for some time piist? — I got them on Saturday nftonioon. formerly kept by ., . r . i r i i . i i i him for purijose 9908. ror what ])urpo,se ' t or the purpose of looking tlirough thoni, through them. *i'i'l ' looked at them on Saturday night for a short time. 629 CONKLIN Mackintosh ?— appoarod in requisition, K„,Miir.v ofKup- IVIxonN Pay- niMHtcr-Hiiil- 91tO!>. Aro you better able now to explain flic system than you B'I|"teykT'V»»''«K* were on a ])revious occasion? — Yes; I e:.n lecoileet it better, flOlO. ^Yill you now explain tlio sy.->leni upon which the day-book WHS kept, for instance? — All trunsactions as they oreuri<>l wei'e eiitored Kxijinriiition of in the day-book, excepting, ot'coinve, the ^iviii^ of chcsjues, and they -^ysif?!!. wont into the cheque-i)ook or bank cash booic. '.'Oil. When you say chequebook or bank (.'.sh book, do you mean that there were two books, or that they were all in one? — They wero all in one. 0912. Did you say that all the transactions as they occurred wero entered eitiier in the daybook (tr in the ca>hdiook ? — Yes; of course. There were requisitionn, but they were put into the I'equisition book. An ciiicinecr i!;avo a requisition and it was entered l)y Mr. Nixcjii in the requisition hook. 0913. That was not a transaction but a request? — Yes. 0914. But when a transaction occurred, do 3'ou aay it the day-book oi- in the cash-book? — Yes. 9015. Then if Hupplies were furnished nc(;ording io any an eiitrv would bo made concernini!" that? — NVheJi the supplies were i'''"'**, f"'^"''*'"''' ■ 111 . 1 .1 .1 * • until ancomil tuiiiished there was no entry made until the account cruni in. cume in. ItOli). What account ? —The account from the merchant. For instance. Ml. Nixon getL a requisition fVom the eiif^ineer, that re(|uisition is kept in the requisition book, and Mr. Nixon tills liie order. It may take some time ; and at the end of the month the account comes in and it is checked over from the requisition book. 0917. Then when an account comes in from the niercliant to the otl'oct that lie has furnished some supplies for some work, somosurvty, or some party, you umicrstand that that furni>hiri^ of supplies wotih appear in your daybook? — That would a|)pear in the invoice book. All thoMj were kept, or pasted into the invoice book, so that tli.it would not appear m the day-book. O'.tlS. ^Vo^ld that bo tlio only record of that transaction 1,\- whicli the merchant had fjirnished supplies to some |>arty connected with the Pacific ]{ailway ? — That would be the only entrj'. HOlO, And what would that entry be : would it be a pasting of the Fntryor HuppiidB invoice on the leaf of the book ? —It would be a pasting of the invoice p,'i«t^,I/il"u'i']i[Ji^. • m the leaf of the blank invoice-book. 0920. ^Yould there bo any entry of that in any of your set of books? -No. 0021. Then no charge would be made to any work on account of that supply ? — No. 0922. Do you think that was the right way to keep a set of books : l<» tile away invoices and make no entries concerning them ? — In oitliiiury business transactions, if I were keeping a set of merchants' »)()oit.siniii'tt\vay, l)ooks, I would not do that ; but when those books were opeiietl I had IK) knowledge of what these accounts would be charged to, we had no knewledgo of what the items wore to be charged to. Wo were not posted regarding the divisions and had no instructions from Ottawa. What I understood, wc merely forwarded at the end of the month a list of the cash statements with the vouchors accompanying them. Id tinllnary biisl- IieKH WttlK'HS wuiild n;if kfcp CONKLIN 630 Nixoii'M l*ny- lliaHtfl'-HIKl- Piiivi yui'KliI]) BuiiIi-Ki't'piiiH. Wlifii wltiipfis took cliiiij;'- '><" books lio ili'i not know hov. to proceeJ. Kept IK) IKTOUIlt In h'U^fer I o which Hiipplit's ibrwanl- t'd l)y various inerchiints wi-ro eliaiiii'd. •Simri from cm'- tain (Ichu'iK'ii papiTs, Ac, hooks ns in Wllicll Mlpplii'S WITH M'ut In by intM'cliii rit » from w'lioni I licy liiid been pinolias )■ )ok : a COlIl'Ci . .» of lu voices. Animals and other siippllcg vrhloh wcrs wore furnished, show you to wlial account tliey mi^ht ho chargoil ? — Tliey (11(1 ill Hoinc cMso-j, but not in Jill. I had no idea when I went lliuiu what to oj)en ou,. I opened first an account for the Piicilic l{aihvay. 1 tlien understood that we were to keep no ixonoial ledi;or; thai llii'^e entries wore to bo lorwarded to Ottawa, and charged up there to the respective accounts. 91»i4. Then are we to undorntand. as a matter of fact, that you lia,l not to keep an\' account in your IccfcLfor to which supplies, forvvardcd or supplied by different mjrchaiits, i.vero charged? — NTo ; that i;i correct. 1)!)25, The only way of a-'CortiiininLj lliat intbrmation would be a|)an from your books and locking at the dotatched j)apors ? — Ve.s. 99?6. And if one of tlio.so detached jiapors should bo mislaid or lost there would be no record of it? — The vouchors were taken in triplicate — that is, after they were paid. ltl>27. 1 atn speaking of the other end of the transaction ?— Thai would be the only thing that wo could fall back on, to tind what those accounts were naid on. 1*028. Then did your books, apart from the detached papers, show the ti-atmaction of thai Ijranch of tlio business or of t'lat otUce ? — Tho}' could be arrived al, of course, from the detuchod paper--. 992!). Do you know the meani'ig of ajtart ? — Yes. 99;]0. ft seem-' absurd to say that your books would show it. ajjui'' from the detaclKvj papers, if yoii look at the ])api>rs? — I mean that you would re<]uire tho'delacliotl papers along with the books. 99.']l. 1 ain asking you w^jiiM your books show it without the [jupcrs* — No. 99.'j2. I suppose some articles not procured from merchants were obtained: mich as horses, or cattle, or animals of any sort — Wv)uid there be any entry in 3'()ur set of b.ioks, in lepcndent ot' dolachod p.i|)t)rs, to hhow that transaction? — I'jxcopt in the invoice-book. !19.'5.'}. The invoice book is, as 1 understand, a collection of dotacheil ])aj>ers? — A collection of all invoice;! of goods furnished. 9934. It is not an account of them, but tho papers thomsolves ? — Vc^ 99.i5. The invoicedjook has no part ot it whiclt shows a current account evideticing the whole amount of the transactions? — N"o. 993'!. Wore things of tho kind that you describe, either animals or supplies, which in the first instance were got for parties, and the parti- culars of which would be pasted into the invoice-bouk somctimos, returned either in whole or in part ? — Yes ; of course. 9937. Did you keep any record of Buch returns? — The store-koopor had an account of it. 9933. J)id you keep any record of such transactions? — No. 9939. Would iuiy invoice-book or any book in your set of books shovr the tiansactions of those returns, without showing the value or (piaiUity of things returned ?— No. 9940. Would your books alone, or with tho invoice-book, show the real state ot affairs? — Yes; I think that they ought to. r 031 CONKLIN )ii olMotaclied solves ? — Ve- '.1041. Will you explain to me how lliey oiiicht. to, if you sa}- llie returns were not entered in thorn? — Of course, the}' would not. 1 mib- iindorstood the question before. '.I94_'. Now can you say, us a matter ol pi'actice, whether the Ntore-book ivhich you told us was kept by -Mr. Parr, shows a current account exhibit- in!' at any time (ho amount of stores that were then on hand ? — I do not kno'.. I am sure; J never went over his book. 9'J43. Tlien are 3'()U any better able to tell whether that book .showed the value of the blores on hand ? — It diil not, 1 am positive ot that. 11944. Then ^oiiii;- to the system of koepiui;- accounts wiliisub-a;,'cnts, (.an you say wliether an account was kept with the subagont as a iiorsoiuil account, or was it charged to the party with which ho was (■onnoctcd,or wt)rk with which ho was connectetl ? — It was u per.sonal account. 9945. What would form the debit r^ido of that accout)t against sub- ;u,'oiits?— Amount of cash advanced. 99l(i. Would anything more tiian cash bf chai-ged fo him ? — '.''ash -ales ; that is all 1 think. 9947. Would you cliargo to any sub-agent supplies which you tor- wanlod to him to be dealt out in any way or to any of his party ? — [ kept account of it on a se})arato sheet. 9948. I will repeat my «inestion: Would y(»u charge to ariy sub- iiijent sup])lies which you forwai-ded to him to be dealt out in any way pitoany of his party ?— They were charged, but not in his account. 9949. Uf course I am asking you as to your >et of books ; 1 am not ^lioaking of dctaclied memoranda scattered about tho ottice. l)<) you ;imler;-la:id that I am now speaking ah. Kit vour svstom of book-keeping j* -Vos. ;'9r)i). Then 1 will ie])eat that question making it apply only to your -ysitctn of books ? — No. 9951. AVould you credit to any s dj-agent'.s account amounts which lie had i)aid labourers by any of these supplies? — No. 'J'.t52. Had you any account in your itodks. cither with individuals or uniler any general name, showing tho whole amount ot supplies which yuii forwarded to different sub-agents or the whole of your sub-agents, ;md the mode in which those supplies were dealt with? — No. There was not such an account. 'v/953. Then is thoro any metho;l in your bo(dvS by which wo can iKcrtain now whothor Hup|dies which were forwardel had been fully aicounted for? — None, except by going through tho books. 9954. But 1 understand you to say that thoy wore not shown in tho lioiib ? — I was referring to the ledger when I saiil there was no account kopt. 9955. Do you moan that there is an account kopt tor such supplies :nany other book than your lodger? — There wore entries in detail of '.bcm. 'J35G. IJut no collected siutement ? — No collected account. Nixoii'M I'liy - iiiuMt«:r-aii|-.«1|||| U«»uk-k<'('|iiiiK. Ni'Vcr wi-iit over Piirr's -loif-lxmk. hut posiilvc U.iUa not Rliow ilio vjiUic- of sti>rc> (III liand. Afcoimfs Willi siih-aseutK personal. Snl)-;it;piils <'liiiri,"'il oiily Willi I'lish sali'S. Siil)-Mi;''iit ii()( <'l)iiri.'<'i| witli siipplii-.s fiii'warM-kcc|tliif;. Jiaj'hook would imt, show tho liislory of 8U|l|>li('S. Involcc-book mid day-))o>-*'ii-p<>-'ii [•980. Would the money which was received by Mr. Nixon on Nixon would i.ii aecdunt ol' the Government pass through your individual contrfd. or j.',l",!iv'^.,'i"|','"'i',^ would he tell you of the items HO that you miyht make an entry? — nom uov.•Vll- He would toll me. OOSl. llavo you any moans thurs within 3'our own knowledijo of Cinuioi teii knowing whether the entries in the day-book show a correct statement |all'uy.'')',,,uic''\v,'T.> olihoso moneys? — No; of course 1 cannot say that. ' correct oinot. '.i;'S2. You have every reason to bclievo that they do? — I have. 99815. What reason havo yon to believe that thcj-do? — Nothing t'.xeopt my confidence that Mr. Nixon would not do anything (S the kiml. 9981. It is from that confidence ?— Yes ; of courHO I had no means of idling. 9985. That would not help your system of book-keeping? — No. !)98(!. Did you personally take part in the manairemont of his own Tioosnot think ii. personal bank account with the bank r — iNo; 1 do not think it. I do iiiiin!i:.'.in.iit of not romcmber of having taken any part in it Nixon'.s pi i viiti' aci'oiiul. 995/. For instance, if you made deposits to his individual credit in the bank, wou'd you afterwaids take control of that account and deal with the bank respecting it as an officer of the Government? — No. 9988. Ifavo you any mean.s of knowing whether the mone,ys which you deposited to his private account wore all included in the stafemcnts which were afterwards furnished to the Government as contaitiing a correct statoraont of that matter — I mean, are you in a position to Verify the correctness of those Httitements which were forwanled from time to time by Mr. Nixon ? — I have no moans other than the letter book. 9989. I am speaking of verifying them before they were sent off. Had you yourself a personal knowledge of his personal aHairs or (»f his bunk account sufficient to enable you to show whether the state- ments that he sent to the Government were strictly correct, or whether they containod mistakes? — Thus far: that whenever any monc}* was leceived on his account by the Department 1 made an entry in theday- Itook, and when the deposit was made of course 1 could then tell by referring back whether the deposit covered all the roceii)t8 or not. !)"90. Then those remarks, I suppose, you mean to apply to the loceipts which you had knowledge of? — CoVtainly. CONKLIN (334 Kfxoti*H Pny- ■■iMHtt'i'-miil- l'urv< yi>rslili» Uuok'iKMpiiiK* (ik. Ooi'S not Uliuvv wli<>tl)i.'C hank liiiil a Ix.ok In uliicli the sums reciivi'il (III :\v- I'Oimt (ildoviTii- mcut, ami dipo- silcil to Mxon's private acfdimt Averc fiiteroil. No iBcaiis nfox- plainiii;; the way acciuiiits sm-li as those ot John lirown's were lialaiiced. Kxplaiiation from iiieinory. '.'Dill. Are yoii iiliio to .say tiow wlii;tlier lioturc those siatonionls weic soiiL to tlie (<()V(!riimuiiL yon did look over the detucliod mcruoraiidii m the day-liook so as to be able to decide wliether tho statomcnls whidi Mr. Nixon seid \vei'o:d) have been had on account of the (rovernmenl, aiid another hide ol' tho accounts of the moneys which you depositcil with the I{ecoivcr-li'J.). ])() you say whether you evei' saw that? — I do not romembei' having i'vui) it. I'l'OT. J )id 1 ask you about several accounts that were balanced in your b oks : John JJrown's, for instance, tmong others? — Vos. I)!)!)S. Have you arrived al a means of explaining that balanco? — Xo; 1 think i under.-itand it ahbougli I can see no trace of it. 1 can recall the transaction to my memoiy. It'.iiHl But tiie books show no trace of it?— It is shown on tliui account correctly, but still you cannot trace it. lOOUO. You mean that what the book says is the correct statement but you are not able to trace it from entries in ti.o books ?---No; 1 cannot. From memory the ro.^ult trliown in the books is the true one, that is what 1 mean. 10001. You say that from your memory? — I remember the (liin- saction to a cci-tain extent. I remember this amount was placed to his credit in one of the banks to draw on as sul>agont at Edmonton. For some reason ho did not draw, the people would not take cheques, and tho amount was afterwards deposited to the account of tho Eeceivcr- (Jeneral. 10002. Is tliat your recollection of tho way in which it wassettlod?-- Ye.s. 10003. Then if your recollection is right ho never really drew the money from tho bank? — I think he never drew tho money. 10004. If ho did draw the money then your recollection would be wrong? — Yes; unless it was handed to itir. Nixon and deposited to the credit of the IJeceiver-Goneral. 10005. Look at the entry in John Brown's account and see the tlalcot it ?— ISth December, 18?6. 10006. Do you find in this ^;f,atement by Mr Nixon (Exhibit No 104) any evidence that any amount of that kind was deposited to the credit of 635 CONKLIN ihowii on tluit , waM settled?— see the dale ot ilio IJeccivei'-deuoral llion or aiiywiioro about tluil liaic, tlio ninoiint hioiii<4 o2,8b'l.:i8? — No; i «eo no such amount. liiOdT. I undiMstood you to say that if tlio money was drawn upon his ( lioiiut.' to .loliii Brown it would he correct only in ca.-e there was Kmiic eviilonce, or in case it had actually lieesi put to the ci'edit of tlii> IJcoeiver-trcneral ? — When I >aid that 1 could recall the Iran-Faction — ItlKii part rccouliui; the credit to the lieceiver-dlonei'al — of course J am ]iot exactly sal istied on that, hut 1 knew such cases occuri'cd, and I iJiiuk it is in John Brown's account. Kii) 'S. ('an you ex])lain this credit in any other way except upon the hla^is that that che(|uo was not actually taken by J3rown ? — The che(iue |rtii-! ii'>i taken hy Brown; tiiat is tlio conclu.sion I should arrive at. lOOOl). If it was would that entry bj coi-rect accordiuij [o vour Idea? lOillO. Ti >ok at. the cheque now handed to 3-011, and say if it was iruwii ly John Brown iVoni the bank ? — Yos ; I see Ijy the explanation h'ivcii on ihe cheque it was (bijiosited to reimburse him for cheques on jiiivato account. 10i)l]. Do you now sny that your first explanation that it was not I ii:.\vn iVom the bank was a correct statement of the Lransaclion V — No; lit n;i> not correct. 0!)12. You think the explanation which you considered from memory Ito bo correct is not correct? — No. l;ii)l.;. You .-ay liow that theie is another explanation? — Yes. 1001 !. What iy the other ex])l}»nation ? — I can only trace it ly the |f.\|iluiuition ot theche(|U«! tliat Brown must iuivo ^iven cheques when Ihe was out there on his own |;rivate acccnint up to this amount. lOOl.'j. Is that a matter which is exhibited by that sci of books, cr Imiisl wo ^o to .lolm Brown's private account to lind that out ? — This d;of[iie ajtpcai's in his account does it not? Ill Ui. Can we ascertain the correctne.'^H of your last explanation 'viilioiil i;')iiiu' (o .lohn Brown's jirivate account ? — No; unless we i!;o to burnt' of the statements or some ol' the detached papers. HiOlT. Then your books do not show the exj)lanation of this tran.>- |aiii()ti ?— No. 10018. ;\boul the other accounts which I mention — for insuincc, |V;iloiitino (,'hristian's, and otiier persons who wore sub-agents, have you kcd at them to aco it you can give a better explanation of them than [joii g-ave betbre ? — No. 10011). I'pou the whole, what is your opinion now, as a b lok-keepor l-lor 1 iindcistand (hat you have some reputation as a l)ookd li»ofc-ke«'liliti$. IOOl'I. Th.iL is from memory ?— Yes. 10(»L'2. Tliat vvoiikl show tliut tho l)ook.> iniglil mi-l'':i'l on,'?— T),^. otliei' ()X]iI;irintion I mailo wiis, I considoroil I liu'l only to k-coji iln. JK.'Couritu of tlio men unci accounts tliot liiid to bo settled Iim-c, Ihu iIkm tho accoiinlH of tho Dcpai'lment woro kept in Ottawa. 1002.}. is there any other matter which } ou would like to s.'iy lir way oi' evidence or explanation upon this subject? — No. NIXON. HiKl-Piir- ll ihe I li"ro, Imi ihii! lil:o lo >-;iy !iy .ion of Ml'. Conk- nit bliowiiiff the I niont, nnd whirh ])!'ivnte ;\fc(iiii,t lOuM lio inve-ti- )(iok ? — Vnll !i;il i'k ? — Ves. Tlitiv ahiuits, iiml 1 (I'l L I bulii-'vo I can, 0(iuostio!ieil Mr. ot the ii'i.'iniii';' 'cs^^al■y to ('Xjilaiii iIum': lli;.l Mr. r nM'civoil 110 'oiil'l b'j (.Mroc'iei, horses Wiiull be U to hitn to keep yoM fiMiik'.v till'. UmI to Mr."Coiik-| ■ inonovs t'lr the iiHist have k'n] U Wits froiii my nklin, thiUthe.>e| to inc. jther, iiH siipMiir I iK'l him to litep I . ccoutitaiit in the oamo ill, but ho Could not May tijo Ixist' on wlilcli I'lirr inado up IiIk statu luuiitH. of checking ilio I accident lo men- a sum ho had '"^ | Pa,viiinftt<-r« ■ iiit-riir- [cantrol over tho hooks or the bahinco which woiiM appear at miiiu! ii*,l,it"uV.''|Iia liiture titno so U8 to correct your inomory about it? — No other than tliis : if tlio tran.sactions came iiruler tho coi^iiizanco— iw 1 say they |jiJ— ot'tho accountant, ho would know all about it. 10033. liut if ho had kej)t a collected account sliowintr tho debit [and credit of any particular party or work, then ho would have boon euablcd to sliow by tho balance whether there had boon Homo orror or omission, anil so bo able to remind you, or call your attention to the I circumstance ? — 1 think he would. lOO.M Hut do you think that that wouKl Iiavo been tho more perfect [niode of recording the transaction ? —Yo.s ; it would decidedly. 10035. I think I asked you before whether you were awaro of the j basin upon whicii Parr made up liis statemonts from timo to time— whether it was from tho actual goods on hand, or what his books Uhowed ought to bo on hand in tho store? — I cannot tell you exactly I how that was. 1 would not like to speak with po-itivoncs:! as to it. jl think i-eturns were made to tho i.TOvernment yeai-ly of tho amount (if goods in store Bpecifying tho articles, but not their value which we IcDuld n»t do of course. 1003G. Do yo;i remember this matter of Brown's j'oursolf so as to be [ablo to explain it more fully than Mr. Conklin ?— No ; I do not. 10037. Do you think that your private account in tho bank, to which I ^ome ot these Govornrnont moneys were deposited, would show to any one a distinction between those moneys which you had of your own, and those moneys which you had belonging to the Government ? — 1 do 'not think it. 10038. Would the production of it enlighten us upon that subject? — lido not think it. Suppose that horse, say $25 — you remember tho tiansaction — 1 might that day deposit $40 or $50 to my personal hredit in the bank. If that wore the case — of course 1 am speak- ng entirely from memory — you could not discover the $25 by itself. I do not remember banking always tho exact sum. Of course, it is some years now. 10039. Do you think, speaking in a general waj', that you had large j amounts mixed r.p with tho Government moneys or only small iimonnts ? — They were largo sometimes For instance, I received moiioys from tho Archbishop during the timo of the grasshopper i)Iaguo -larye sums — which I had to pay out for wheat and Hour. The moneys peie transmitted to him and liy him given over to me. 10040. Can you suggest to us— I ask this because I know you are Cim sii^«tsi no Iconsidored to bo a very yooil business man — arty method by which we "'"v .','.y..^.'fil'!?.' i.. . I , , •' o •/ »f r*>i rt'iM iiuss oi lilts Iwn investigate tho correctness of your statements to tho Government stnioiuonts to tVoiu titno to timo of tho moneys of theirs which you had in your hands ? might'V"'i'nvrMi- |-Xo ; 1 cannot. Kutcd. 10041. Do you think that thisprivato bank-book would help us in the j investigation ? — 1 do not think it would, but I have no objection that ym should have it. I have given full details of tho fuP transtictions to [tho Department ; and then 1 may ,«ay it was aboutamntith only, while jihitigs would bo fresh in my mind. 10042. But of course you had iinmenso sums to doul with ? — Xo. Cannot oxplaln llrown's account more fully than C.'oukllD. Private a<-('.ount In li;ink would Htiow no (nstlnc- tlon between flovi'iMmn-nt moneys and moneys properly private. NIXON iJiiS PnyiiinHtrr- Mflil-I'iir- v«-yoii»hl|»— B«M>K-k<'e|>lii|K. KxpluliiH why li|i nioiiior.v lit' lUlKMintH roulil not III- ill I'm lilt. ♦^ >; lOui.'!. I tliiiik you tloul!, ill Hoinotiiin^ ovoi* Imlf u nilllion miuI J';u:ilic li;iil\vay alono '.■' — IJiit none of tliiil (vuiio to mv luiii N. ^'ol| nin.ti iiiuk'iMUitid tliut tliul would not forno into my coniiol diioctly or \u\\\ I'cctly. lOOll. I mil iiol Bpojikin^ of iho amount iindni' your control, \><\'. Ilio atiioiuitK that |>a> I 'liii' tiiM.,j .statcmenl.s woic mado to tlio < iovornnitMit at short period- ?— ^■l•s. 10015. And I Kiippo.so you motitioii llinl to'liow that y(»iir nioiiiuivi lor that i^hort period would likely ho .>io por'cft that no mistake wnui] ho mado liy joii. Is that your iiloa of moiitioniriir about the >lii, ■ jioi'iod ? — S'oH. lOOtf). Af,'ainst that idoa, I am siii,'ijt'stinfj^ to you that voiir mitiilji;,! to C'arr\- sindi lart^o tran.sactions that it mi;^ht p(»ssil>ly li;ivo ovorluokcijj .soino matter of your own ? — No, that is where we difll'r; in thiswuv: that I would tiot receive lari^e amounts. I would bi' montlis, iii instance, with only S52r} — or nii^dit be months with only 8/5. It is!', cash whicdi actually camo into my jiosse.ssion only that I had tn dt,, with, in tlio way in which wo aro now speaking of. 101)47. Tint wuutd your mind not bo occupii-d with other tran-aclioih in whi(di morioy would not p:iss throiii;!) }'ou'.' books ? For irislanr^ the jtui'chase of supplio — tluMloalini,' with merchants? — Of coiir>t>, I.; [ thoui^ht what you meant was that having such larife sunjs of nviiirvi I miylil niadvortently overhok Homo of them. 1004S. Xo ; I meant that your mind was so occujiied with "llier subjects such as suppli(vs and doalini!: with merchants, that a mistake miiiht occur? — Certainly ; but my ac(rountants knew all the moiiov- that came in, and my storeman. No transactions were made withoiitl the cogni/.ance ot either one or the other. 1004!'. Now, as a matter of practice, would yu not sometimes ivnivJ money and deposit it to your |)ri\ato account in tho bank bcfoio vuiirj hook-keo])er wa.s made awaro of it ? — 1 do not think it. lOOno. Would you tell him while you had tho money in yoiii- liaili or pocket? — Moneys usually came through the accountant. 10051. lie says not, I understand him to say that you wiiiiill receive these jnonej's and would tell him of it ? — Jn some cases 1 -\\\)-t ioi'ii Ji!| ■ liuvo ovorloiiki'l Im' ; ill this wiiv bo motiths, I'mI ly SlT). IliMhe ill I htul t(i ilea! iLhor trtui-:u:li'«'-| ? Pol" itisla:ii' ? — Ot'ooni'sc; Ur sums 1)1' niDiitvl ;i|iicMi will) fillii':] s, tlial a niist;iko| i- all tlio m 1)1 10}' jro inailo withini:! >i)inotinios ivi'mve bar.k bc'Ibii' vn ii»y iu youi' li:ii/,j itaiit. thai you \vi!!ini| momo casos 1 Mip be otVcctoil - -:i\ nlly, and the m:»i)| instoad oi to tli( ,0 dotal Is yomvili (' to timo— soine-l do. )nsi? — I \v()iikli;on 'II private inoiu'\ : .)u would toll tliej would not alK' I'll) iiinxtt'i'- mikI-I'iii-' 1005.'). I moan a day or twodaysartoi-wanis?— Xo; I do n • 'liinlv „,^,';{^",'^,',!|,';~^. it, 1 was particular about inorioys that caiiio into my hands, as you will hoo by my loiter to tho l)o|)arlmont. I did not like handlini^ any iiionoy. I 1005C. Do you think that this stalcinont contains all tin; inom-ys LjepDTitod to tho ci'odit of the Kocoivci' (umkm al ? — 1 think so, It is Ivcars since that was written. 10O.')7. Have you any reason to believe that tho slalonionts ruvnished bvvou from lime to time, both oftho moneys received and th iioncys placed to iho credit of tho Rocciver-CicticMat, arc substantially ■ urrecl ? lam, mo>t positively. lOO.'iS. 8o that if th«re is a fault, it is a fault in the s\st«-m of I)o :)k- Docs not tij.nk ktfepin;,?, and not a fault in the transactions tliomHclvos?— I do not li^/i'iVu'!*,^' nV.v.'''''' liiink there is a solitai'v dollar astray, and niivcr did ihink so. 1 was ■•ery, very particular. I 1005'.'. Is ihere any Mtlier matter coniii'iU'd with this subject which jvoii would like to oxpkiiti or give evidence on '.■' — No ; I do not know ot lanytliing. I lOOfiO. Vou found, I presume, a ditlerent state oi' I) )ok-kecpin!^ under )1;'. Currie'.s adminisli-ation ? — Ves ; Mr. Uuri'ie's bookdvoeping seems • ^ali^hlctor3^ I IfldGl. About those moneys, in like manner, he could have told you ; Jliocause there aie moneys deposited by you in that sl.alemenl ? — Tlioso hniounts wore not put down at one time. , 100ti2. Mr. Carrie's books, I suppose you ai'c aware, contain the laicount which I h'lvo been aakinj;' you .about, and whii h w!i-< absent ]t!iini youi' ju'ovions system ? — Vcs ; I told you before 1 was not satisti(>d Jtlii' way things were. I 10003. Would you be good enough to look at your private b.ank-book, lif you can find it, and see if that will elucidate the subject? — I will do I, I lOOlU. If you find that they ai-o m.'ide in such shape that they will llieli) us to investigate this mallei", we will l)e obliged to you ? — I will, I lOOtij. But if not will you please come and say so? — I shall do so trunk ly. STRONACH. T«l«';;rH|»li — .llHiiilMiniiei'. ( oiili-iifl \n. 1, ttl ■ |J)ii.N Stiu)N.'\oii, sworn and oxaminoil: Bii the Chairman: — I lOOiJtJ. Have you had an opportunity ot judging of tin; elHciency of c<'i)ii''<'t'ii «• llie iclegrajih lines connected with tho Oanadian Pacitie liailway? — jvaig." """ ' IVt's; during the last three years 1 have. I 100(JT. Where have you boon during that lime? — The first three lii'mhs 1 was connected with the line, l was at Whilemoutli on the ll'anadian Pacific liailway ; the remainder of the time 1 have boon in The Winnipeg office. 100G8. In wlial capacity in the Winniiteg offl-e ?— Ojieiator and wk-lcooper. STRONAOH 640 'I'l-leirmph — <'oiitrMt't No. I . I.IIIL' bet Wl'fn WlmilpfKiind Fort I'flly works well tit corlulu perluilH. IlaK been from three wtjeks to a inoiith unwoi'ka- tile. C*aii Jiiilge from cliofk hook pro- biiblo time of hruaks. rs with tho office. It goes back jw tar US May, 1877. It shows just when the lino worked with Polly ovcnf month on Swan River. 10O7r>. Ill this book you keep a record apparently of each djiy us which the line is working? — Ve.s; that is, every day wc have bii^lnev| it is ontorcd in here. 10076". These records are only for tho work of tho line upon wliiili you made charges ? — Yes. 10077. So that if there are blanks here, it would not necc^sarilv] I'ollow that the liiio was not workable dui'ing that time ? - Ve« cs[)ecially in such a small space as four days. In March, 1S78, 1 ^iiuiili hay that the line worked tho whole month. 10078. Do I understand that from what appears in thiit hook yoii can lorm some opinion of the probable time of tho dill'ereiil brc;il<>.'- Yes. 10079. AVill you please look at the book and say, lor the past lliiocl summers, about what proportion of the time tho lino was not in workiiii.' order ? — During the last three years I judge tho line has worked l'runi| belwoen one-half and three-fourths of the five months from tho l< May to the oOth September, of the summer season. 10080. And during the other months of the year, do wo undcrstaivl that you think it has boon working without any more breaks than iiwjl be e.vpccted on any other line ? — it compares favourably with ouroilierj line, the North-VVestern line, going to St. Paul in the winter season. 10081. Have you made this calculation which you now give us (romj looking over your book and counting tho different ])3riod8 duiingj which no work was done over the line ? — Yes; that is no paying AVOikT 10082. Then have you charged the line with being down iluriii-j the whole of tho period for which you liiid there was no paying \mM or have you made some allowance ? — If there is business on one daj,| Miy the lyth of the month, but probably not until tho 15th or I6tli, iM\ STRONAOH llllO upon WliKE 'l'4'la'irri(|»li - MHllllrlll%nrr> wmild (hero l>o any nioio bilsinoss, I would |u'ol»:il>lv' soo onu iiu>ssaj,'c *'"•»•■""' '"^«»» i« ,,;, that day; bill thai i-i no rt'usoti wiiy tho liin> slioiild lie di»wn diifiii;^ tli;il liiiH". ]l)fl8,'{. Aflor ^ivinj^ the lino ciclil I'or liciiiu" wni'kalilo i1ioujl(1i not TiM'ai.ovi'nnNW.'r woilvi'd fi»i' tli«' siiorl int(«i'Vii!,> wliidi you dt'sniho? — ^'cs. In K'^'i'V^^ !,'vr.','ii,''''iii'iiir.'< .iv'-im,'.'. lilOStl. "What is your experience of the litic west ot I'elly? — I have c-ouiimi Xo. n. ',;(1 iiolliini;' to do with il. l()i)S7. J^o moshiagofi go over that line from your oHiie? — Yes. lOOSH. They are repealed from Pelly to J'ldmonton ? — Yes. * lOOiO. Do you know any pei'so?is hero who can tell y()u anything ,liout this? — Yes ; there is a repairei' here named (i. \V. Wright, who \vii.'l very good. There "is not a gi-eal deal of li'ouble, 1 think lately, since "'" ''"""-"■^'""'• vdiistriK-tiori on contract ]."> has stopped--that i.s, the blasting f)t' I'ick lias stop])ed. During the lime blasting ^as going on tho line w;(> continually being blown up. That is \vh;il the I'cjiairer said. 1 !i;ive 110 means oljudging lurlher than that. 1001'). Do you mean thai thci'e wore frequent inlorruptions during I'locincni int'r- the |>eriod ol construction on contract 15? — Yes; but tho intcrruj>tions p.lj.'iV.'.i'irr rl'.n-"" wiMTCoinpai-ativcly shoit. There were repairers there, and they would sini.-tion on go out immediately and tix it up. Very often the foreman of the gang '"" who blew down the lino would tix it up, and any interruptions were lii'omptly fixetl. 10094. Then the line was not out of working order for any grefit jiroporlion of the time? — No; there wore very few days but what we (oiild work through. 10095. Do these remarks apply to the three years of your experience ? —About the blowing down of tho line — that was when the rock work was being taken out on contract 15. 10096. Yes; but I am asking about this last answer of yours — when it was out of working order for only a short time? — Yes ; that is as far as Rat Portage. 41 STRONACH (;42 /« Miilltll IN III- biuH lirau.'ii. j^y,Y^ Wiiohasc-oiiti-ol of ...0 tole;,M'a|.h ..vor the South Pominu l'iiw'Vo'?\vmMi,a lii'iirich — I iiieati I'-'orn >Sl. I^joiiiliifO soiitlivvani '.' — Thci-'^ ai'o two dillcivii; liiaiKii lines. They both belong to the Noi'lh-Wo.stoi'ii Tclni^i-apli Coiiijcmv unless tiinied ovcm' to thu Pembina il'vnch Coiiij>;iiiy f'oi- tlioir u>o. 10008. J)o you moan the Railway Company ? — No; the (loveriinui] I suppose. At I'.'.tst I do not know that liie (Jovcrnment have ; in;; I here was 'li-. afrant^emc'it made willi Swifl, Upper i\: Co., when tin liad the l\tid.iina Jjraneii, 100119. And noitli of St. Huiifaeo, on the I'enibinu Hiaii'di, i^ ti,, a j)art of the railway teleirra[)h .system ? — No ; there is no line on il,) I'lilway I'unninuf to .SolUirU. The lino runs tlown on the west bank ,„ II e river, and crosses at Selkirk cro.-sitig. Tiiiici|.;>i tiouiiir 10100. Is there any (jther matler which you can montiou wliii!, oVM'iiTiV'i'.nrsii'i'r would ^ive us a belt'.'i- understandiiiijj of the way in which these liia^ are maintained .-' — The piinciplo trouble with the lines, I believe, Imi, want of sunieieiit staff to maintain them jii'opei'ly, aiul a bad eouiiii; t>^ run Lhom throuifh. I have no means of judj^ing of thai only Iruia bearing repuirei's and men connected with the line C()ming in and ro|Mjrr ing these things. In my position in ihe K, ^5 iiiKl 41. WlNNii'EQ, Tuesday, 5th October, 18- ' John S. Cadiiv, aworn and examined: By iha Ckairmo.n : — 10101. Whore do you live? — I am living at Fori William. 10102. How long have you lived thei-e? — Since the sjM-ing. I live: at the Landing before that: 10103. How long had you lived at the Landing?— Since last Sop t ember. 10104. And before that?— I lived at Fort William. I ha^l lol^ni;:- at Neobing, in our (dliee. 10105. How long had voii live there? — I came u]) (m the IhhMiiv 18T!». 10106. Eeforc that where did you live? — 1 was at Sarni;i, Caimn Lambton. 10107. Since you have lived near Thunder Bay have you been cm- nected in anyway with the Canadian Pacific Pail way? — Yc>, 1 bl charge of contracts 25 and 41. Appointed April, 10108. "Were you connected with the railway before May, IS'll?- | ^^''*' No ; I got my appointment in April. 10109. But your first knowledge of the atl'airs commenced in Miiy 1879?— Yes. 10110. Have you since that time been aUvay - jn'agod on tlioriil- way? — Yes. t-imr(l'. tlio (lovonuneii'. iiineiil liavc ; In;; : Co., whcu till', . BraiU'h, \* thr is no liiK' on [U tho west Ijaiik i,i II mention wlniii wll it'll tllOSO lilKN >s, I believe, i> ti ul 11 bii'l eoiiiiu- if that only tioi;, fling in uiid roiiuri- 1 have h;:.'l a i,mw' 1 October, iS- Railwny Coiim itiriK'lioit ~ 1()111.\ What stair nave yon had ni.der you?— I have haer ol assi'^tants. ( A t'ler j^,.^, .„,,.,.„ Inokiiii^ !it a rctnrn hande.i the witness by the .ludge) ; 1 see that the n^^-isimiis. number ofa'^sistaiits nosv is .scvt'iiteen altogether. Bi/ Mr. KcfU'r : — l(ili;{. That includes the divi-«ioi. en^iiiei-rs? — Yes. iiij the Chairman : — ■ l(ill4. Three division en-^niieers. and Iiov ;ir.uiy assistants ? — Fonr- toi'ii lirst and second a>>i.--tants and sutonlinates. That ineluilcs the iK'cmnitant and olei k. lull.'). How far W'.ist have you y<»ursolf' travelleil over the lino al <;'>»sovor.iivi- (lillereiil limes so as to t:ive a personal sM|)ervi^ion ?--! have been all ^,i?"ifh."'^ (iver riiy dividon myself several timi'-. I niaUe a jioiiit o( going over it every month. IDlil). How far weaL do the trains run? — They are runiung now to Tramv iiitniiiit.'(o about the 15Uth mile. r-'.i. .mi... 10117. I^oos that iiududo any part of contract 41 ? — Yes. KHIS. About how much of it ?— On Saturday, the day I left Fort Work im.i t. . AVilliam, I got a telegram that the track was laid to the tbrly-.si.xMi I'lliiJoilVi!' mile un 41, to station 'J.')7t[), By Mr Keefer: — 1011''. l>o the numbers begin at I'ort William? — No; the}- liegin at die cud - ftvayV— Yes, Ibl fore May, 18"'J.'- )mraonecJ in May. -aiiod on the riil- works. L[. Fa.vsEHs exr.miLialion continued : FRASER. T<-ii'i''' liiid tendei-ed lower than you ? — [ did, as Ijvr as I knew that they had iiic icTiii.'nT . , I . ^,. , , . ■' ., ,. , . 1- 1 "^ • 1 lower than \vK- tailou HI putting up their security, or did not put it up, oi" did "ii;>t wi>h i...is's iinu. to |)iit it up. The first parlies were Nichol.'^^on, Morse i\; Co. The\ were the lowest. 10128. Did you take part in any of tho negotiations which led to one of their 'sureties not coming forward? — Nothing at all. Is that with reference to Mr. Close ? 10124. YeSjWith reference to Mr. Close ?-The first notice T had of tht.t First int'.niatioM was I was served with a legal paper after I got tho contract, notifying "' "'lo""''^ ">ic"'^^ ine that .Mr. Clo.so had some interest in tho contract, I enqi'ired of .Messrs. Manning and Shields what it meant, and they gave me some explanation that if they were to get the contract Mr. Close was to have !i eertam sliarc, and I replied that I would have nothing to do with that at all ; that they had tho half of the contract and they "light FRASER G44 «f », ' ' i>l TciKlcrliii;- <'oiili'ai-l .to I'i, divide it iiji into as many shares ns (liey likcui, liiit tluit \vc liold th,. liiilt'and inleii'lotl lo liold it, uii I would ^ive a share to no oulsiiler. NogotialionH wore m ido allo^^elhor with Shields and Mannini; wiiL )X'>|)ect to ('l(»se. I had no conversation with him with rei^ard in ■■ before thai wiiatever. I'ook no |>:iii in (iri)ciirlii)j; Itii' witlHlrawal oj 10125. Then I undorstand you to say that 3()u took no pait i: proeurin/;^ the withdrawal of Mr. Close from any intended suretysliip? cinsi- truiii Miri- — 1 took iioicii't in it, and I did not kn.)w at the time that Irj vv;i> I \ ship for /iM\ , , , . 1 , i ■ ,m.. ' siu'i'ly at that time. 10l-(>. J)id \vc uiniei'.-^tanil you to say that Smith, who was a sinc'v. oi' intending- suiety for I lie next lowest tendei'er, had intimated tlu: hit Would not come to. 'ward ? — Not to me. Not to me. 1 lliT. How did you ^et, the iilea thai h•^ was not wiliiiii!; to hecoinr Mnciy? — The 1,'eneral i-e|iorl was that their eontraet wa-t very hiulW Co., wuii'd not !)(• arranged, and the opinion {itnotig us contraetors was that no ni;i i n •• Icneral Iinprr^- j-ii)ti Itij.t An- < I rows, Idiii'S A iilili' io tind iiiiy had iudM- t'stcd himself iu Micii- hclialr. means wuiild go into it, lieeau'^e their ro;-k was oidy SI. 50. It \\;i.< - very imjort.'int item. Wliitehead's contract, which was 82.75, joiiioii it, and it had a had imjiros ion, AikIi'cws, Jone-i & ('o. heing so low, ]f)VIt<. J)o I understand you lo say that your itupression wasdeiivri entirely fro?n reasoning out in your own mind the |>r<^hal)ililies of li,~ ei)ming forward? — Pretty much, until 1 lie.U'd it afterwards. lOll'I'. When you say " pretty muidi," do you mean aitogelhcr, ,i not altogether? — 1 shou! 1 thinlc, aitogedier, liiat he was di>saii>ii.vi with the (.unti'act. 10130. Had you an\- other reason hut thai in your own mind i: liriieving that I (' was not likely to come loiward as surety ?- We:,, there A'nsagoid deal oftaMc th:il there wore jiarties in'ore^ting tlrin- selves in getting the c )ntracl (or secti )n !>. 1 do not know whulhor there was any reality in that or not. Mr. Shields was in Ottawa a good d'-al of the time ; hut wheti.ei' he was in ea'iiest in trying to got, ;i> it We; e, intluence fiom other parties, 1 I'ould not say. I had f jrg'iiti.'!) when I was ho''o giving my evidence about a liltli' alVair that I notias ill John J. McDonald's evidence — that is ah(ai( (.'haple;iu. .John J, J do not I'eniciober whether it was after the i-ontrael was awar icd to in.' or at the time Smith was in New York) introduced me to Chaplcai and said that C'lja])h'au h;id interested himself some way in getting tin cjntiact for us or for him, and 1 said that w.is all very good. lOKJl. \Vliom y .lohn J. McDonald, and whethoi' 1 had any convoisatidn willi Ciiaiiloiiii or not I do not roniombor ; but I novel' aiiproachod un\' orio pi- made any olfers. 10134. Dill you understand before tin's intorviow thai an arrani;('mont i)l' that knid ha.wa\- to Now Voik ti.at ^bis interview' took place. I(il3:). That is not answering the (luestion ?— That wa> the time (hat ihoy were waiting lor iheir securitie.s. 10137. Then *hey had still a time dui'itig vvbiidi they might put up •lu'ir securities ? — Yes ; I was notilicd on the ')\h of March. 'Il38. Ploa.'^e do not getaway from what 1 am asking }ou, bccau>c initi\ii« ii,>. \..ii may confuse us all. At present 1 am tr}ing t''i<.i.- whi'ii we think you are s;i_ying that this intcrvu-w between you, r.ir ,\i,(in wv, McDonald and Chapleau was befoi'e the lime had e.Kj)ired, during ',','n'','MMiV.'iV''' .vliirli Andrews, .lones A: Co. hail the privilege of juilting up iheir - '•miiy. -.(•iiiily? — Vcs; 1 think it wi> before ihe tiivic c.\'|)ired. It was when ^'.n\[\\ was awry. . Kllii'.i. Was not Siuiih away a nionih ;ifterw;irds, and evci' sirce ha- 111.' not been awa}' ? — \\ s. lOi-l'l. Then do you not undeislaiid that yonv telling inelhat it u'ji . wiiile Smith was awa^', does not establish whetlu'r ii wa.> beforo or ;.;; T the tunc expired ? — It was lefoie ihe time expired. min. Was it understood, bet ween you and Mchonald then, at the ]t"soi\al interview with (.'ha|)leau. that Mcl'onald was lo pay him the meiicy, and that you would share in the |(ayment of the money '.•' ~ 1 Icid him as a matter of honour that he should ]):.y him. btU'i. Do you not understand that is not answering my qiu'stion '.' I :im not asking you whether McDonald was lo pay it; but 1 i.ni :;>king if it was undoi'stood that you should ]iay ] art of it? — There ^;is very little talk about it. We sold out so Hhortly afterwards. 111143. What happened aftorward:^ does not atlVet what I amen(|iiir- wiiat tonic |ii:i. o iig about. You understand f am en{piii'iig what took placi; at 'his (\v.>'.'M"\vHn^s>'," interview — so that it doe.s not heli) me when you tell me what took <'iiiii>i '.III liitiiiiiili! Iiiond of Smith's, WHS to inlvlse liiiii tluit Aiiilri'ws, .liincsiV Co.'h, coii- triict was !o\v,(uiil tlmt ii wniiM 111' iiiipruilcnt lo risk • iioiioy In it. Sorviof r\s per- I'ormed liy '.'hnplfiiii. Witness's Impres- sion ilS tl) St'lVll'O I'lMiilored l)y Cliiipleaii. loll.'). At tliut iiUerview- what was iiiidcfsloxl to \k', undoitaUeii li\ Chapleuu in consitloraliori for tlio inoiioy wliicli was pi'omirtod to him .' — 1 conltl not toll you that it was anything. I did not considor that ii amounted toajiylhirif;- inysell". I did not lvn')w what hohtil done. 101 K). Whiit was dcscfiliod to you as tho services which he liui rentlerod, and foi- which he was lo ^et $4,000 ? — Thiit Smith and he had been intimate fVionds, that they htid been old acfiiiaintancf- and that he wiis goiui^ to advise Smith that it w.'is a veiy low (nii. ti-acl, and that it woidd be very imprudent tor himself iiiid his fri(M)i!« lo invest and risk money in it. That irt all I understood Chtiplca did. That he was a personal friend of this Smith's. 101 IT. Hut did you iiiidL'rstand that he was intendint^ to advise Smith truly and faithfull}- as a friend at thfit time? — I could not, (d; you, because he was a strani^ei' to meal thattinv.'. 1 was not aciiuaintis with him, and I ilid not know whethci' ho was doin^ it to miv, iManniiiif, MiDoiiiild \ Co., or to xevvo me, or to serve Smith. 101 [8. 1 am not a>kini^ whether he was a friend or not. [ tun !itoo I by you and McDoiialil at th.at time— \ i; under>land what I mean — whether your own miiuls were imjjiosn; with tho idea that he was to perform some service as ti friend to Smilii or whether his service was to bo paid as a friend to you? — lie Imi performed tho services when 1 was introducod to him. I was iiitr i duced to liim as tho party who had done tho service before that. 1014i). What was the understanding in your mind of tho service li had iiorformcd ? — That Smith considereil the c )nti'ac'. too low, mu; that he would not provide the securities — or his I'l lends would iir, a-sist him in providing the securities. 10150. Did 3'ou understand in your own mind that what ho had doi;. in his interview with Smith was an act of friendliness to Siniih — I think it was now. 10151. ^'ou think that is j'our understanding now ia yourown mind ' — At that time I thought it was. 1 thought that Smith was too \m. 10152. T am not asking you what 3'ou thought about it in that view at all. I am asking you as to the cliaractor which Chaploau as^urauii in giving this advice to Smiih — whether it was asa friend to Smith tli;r bo had advised him to keep out ol' tho suretyship ? — J could notansuo: that, because I could not say. 1015.3. Had you no impression in your own mind on that subi>ct ?- i did not think niuch about it: because it was all new to me, iiiid Idi. not think it was worth anything to me, as Itir as I was concerncil, an I Just listened to it and lot it pass right along, because it was nobiMien. to mo. 10151. Was it not a benolit to you to get the contract*^ — Util';." i got the contract in a straightforward manner, I did not want it. 10155. Did 3'Ou not think that tho contract was a pecuniary odvau tago to you ? — 1 did. 1015G. Did you understand that yon had that advantage m conacqiionii' of Chaploau's interfernnco with S mth ? — Xot at all. I had no 'iiilli i what Chaploau had done lor mo. 1 ilid not think it was an}' bciuci. fi47 FRASER pofUiiiar\- ;uiviiii 1015". I)iii('tit to me. 1 did not want his inllneuee and eoutsequenlly I did not lon.-idcr it any henelit. lolUl. Was there any writing produced at that limo ? — Nnt asira|i; ihfic was a telegram thai he got from Smith, 1 lorgel wiiat the |)u;'|' >i t 4 die telegram was; that was tho way, ho showed me the telegram and M(d)oMald. ]0in2. Do you mean you forgeC the purpoiM of it ? — It was stating ii;i: lii"< friends were advised not to put up the money. It is -o long •iiiio that 1 forgot the ])urport of it. lOlti.'}. To wdiom was that addi-essod, to Chaploau or to Mel) )nald ? —I could not tell you that. The purport of it was that ihoy considered :,r prices were low, and that his fiiends advised him nd to have MivthiuL; to do with it. loPU. Whose frion Is ?— Smith's friends. lirKJ;'). Did that remove any doubt in your mind as to whether you would receive the contract? — Not any. !0|6(i. It removed no doubt ?— It removoi no doubt. 10167. Had you not somodoubt inyour miml up to that time?— 1 had jKimo doubt by tho way thoy wero acting. 101()8. Had you any doubt a!\er tho telegram was explained to }'0U ? i— I could not say, I am sure; 1 do not HU])pose that 1 had. I think I haiilly reniomber when the telegram came indeed, 10»(i!>. Was it not exhibited at the tinie of this interview between ivoii, McDonald and Chapleau ?-— Yes ; that was the time it w;i.- exhi- 'itOll. lOlTO. Bjit wa> not that in etfect informing Chaploau that there was liifi loni^ei' any danger of Andrews Jones & Co.'s interforing in 3'our jiTotting the contract ? — No; 1 do not think it. 10171. Was not that tho effect of the information ? —No ; because I 'oiild not tell what the nature of that telegram was. I w;!s not sure ot ivlhing then until I was awarded tb« c uitract. Contracting is such [a liorulirir busines^i ili:il you cannot tell until you are awarded what i nuiv tarn up. loi7J. Was there any other person beside.s Chapleau (u^nneotod with lai.yof the Departments of the Government in Ottawa, who took any jp't to help you or your friends in this mutter? — None that I know , not one, Sir, that 1 know of. Toiiili>rlim — 4'<>iilrnct .^lo, '41, Nil wriiini; pro- iliii'i'il ill tiili't- \ ii'W ; tiiii II li'li'Liiaiii \\;is IllllllllCCli Itvuii StmIIIi, siiylnu : his irlcii'ls wi'M^ ililvlsi'il Mill tu |Mlt III' iiiuiiiy. .A rtir ti'Irm-iiiii \v;i-< ii'iid, liiiil 11 ) • l<>iil)t ihiU his ( Wll lU'S-SI!") irii-niN would i{ct •'ontract. No iv'i'.son iitliiT thiiii c'liapleiiii connecicij wltli I)i!|mrtiiii'nt liclpcil wUnesx iiiiil Ills frlonii.x. FRASER 048 ¥€ ICraNc r A ( \%'llitfilfH(l Fnrtt>rrNlil|i— CoiitrMct No. 15. I'arliicrslilji wllli %\'hililic:iil nol tliK' to iiiMiit'Di-e of any person coniK'cIrd Willi Department. Til iiUs it was due lo C'(M>per, Kali- mail iV Co. Not due lo llldll- eiii'e of ail.\ Mi'mliei ot I'ar- llalllelll. (iraiit iiiinle arr:i iiL;eirieiil With \\ liiiili I. (trant liavlir_'^ made arraiii:<- meiils KMeiirapli- I'd witness to Hsic if lie would uo in Willi him. « <»nlrH<'l .\o. 1:^ lulliifiii'iiiK' titiks. The ehapleiiii iiinlltT. 1017J. Hiivo you any rciison to think tlini your partnership w:',;. Wliiiehcud arniii^ed ut a hilor tlato wan duo to tho iiifhienco ol' ;niv person connoctod with any of tho Departments in Ottawa? — Not win, the Dopiirlmonts ; hut I think it wan by other parties. 10174. What other parlies? — I think Cooper, Fairman it Co. h,. i ;, very hiiLje say in tho matter. 101''). W;is it due to any inrtuoncc of tiny Member of Parliiiniei;! ■ — No; be.'ause the arijinj^ement went into elleet bet(Ke any MeniLei ,[ I'aijiament knew anything about it. 10n con plelod at Winnipeg? — ^\'s. 10l71». And it was eoni|i!eted ihi-ough (irant representing \ litiii ? — VeM. 10180. lie beini: here at Winnipeg at the time? — No; he did ; rt'prestMit the tii'm, xs 1 need not have gone into it tinless 1 chosc. Whi'i ( trant made all the arrangement'' he telegraphed me asking nu; i' ! woidd gi> into it with him. 1018-1. Tlien waw that ai-rauirement with (irant idonc ? — Ves. 10182. And yoa were ottered the option altervvaids to go in if vi.i pi'cierred '.^ — Ves, atter he had made the arrangements, because ;!,i> were not certain I would go in. I IfnS^. Then sit the time of (hat iirrangenient, j'ou were not aclii:, interested".' — No; although my nii'n(> was embodioil in (he ariaii::- ment at the time, still it was optional with me to agree or ! i. . I ;• of Pai'liimii'hi • any Meinli..i i to interest hi:;. to your part!,! n<;' spoken !■■ ;; at the time, :u:i fluonce, aro \ > d not say win iiiij^ements. 1 L onK^nts with M it'tcr < Irani li, • ni-ani^emen! .\ .■ proscntinLC \ No ; lio 'lid ; -s I choM'. Whi'i. asUiiiL!; nio '■'' '■ ? — Ves. 1 to go i" '^ }"' ts, l)C('Uiise lht^■ vcre not aelii:'. in tho anaiii.''- to agree or ! i'. liing; only ■nun I kind of wanti't was to make i' in j)rocar',ii!,' lli.' OS in order to u't't hem, and to t:ii7. Do you remember how far the trains had been running went, whon y»»u first took charge of the work? — They had been running to ihe end of contract 2') at the end of the lK5th mile, about. 10188. Wiiat is your juilgment now abo\it the cl»;iracter ol" the laiiway as it was com])leted iit that time — I mean over sectictns 13 iiml 2.') — il you M'ere giving your opinion as to the manner in which die work had been fini>lied and contiaets hillilled ?— Over l.{ it shows II uood deal l)etter over than 25, and they showed a good deal bolter at •hat lime, because at that time it was otdy partly bulkisteilon 2.'), that i< tViiin the HSth mile west. That is the construction part of it. The ballasting of all of 13 was .ncluded in 25. 10180. Do you say that section 1.5 had been well tini^hod as a rail- way ? — Yes. I0l!tt). It seemed to be in a better ^hapc ? — Ve-. lulltl. Without comparing it with another line, what is your opinion ,it 13 as finished at that tinni? — I thiidv it would seem tn I)e in very ::.H)d shape lor a new road at that time. 10102. Had the rord bed been completed to Ibo full w'dlh i>f i\y genei'ally tlicn as to 25 U]»on tlia< siibjeet ? — The construction ol' puii ol 25 riin> tin (Hi^h veiy (lilbciilt ccnnlry lo ,ft into sliape at once. Thei e was a great deal (jf muskeg, and il -iiks veiy nuieh and st>ttles. It is very uneven. lOl'.lb Do yon mean it settles after the rails .are upon it ? — V(^s ; and .■t'nre the I'ails are upon i(. I never had any expeiience in thai kind t' wDi'k befijre, and it looked rather rough to me. lOpt.'). What else about 25 ? Is ihere anything else tmticeab'e aboiit 'he character of the woi'k ? — There was a go(;d ileal of Imi.- bing-up 'M lir (lone thai, 1 have done since. 101!)(). Was that tinishiiig which was iir'liided in the oi-igin;tI iDiitriU't, in your opinion ? - Partly. 101H7. In what respects was il untiiuslu- i '! — There was till the bal- asting had to be goneoveron 25 ; from Linkoping west it was not bal- lasted at all, and theie was some ditching. 1010:^. How far is covere€ the 'Oiitriictors hands as finis icd ? — No ; I ilo not think it hatl. 10200. Did the contractors do any work upon it after you toot ■hargc ?— Ves, they did ^rork ; principally us days' work. 10201. Was it your (\\\iy to give certiticateH u^on that subject? — Vcs; for all the work that was done. UI202. Wjis this balla.sting to be paid for under the original agree' mont, by the yard or by days' work?— IJy the yard i>rincipally' 111.1 some of it hud to be done by days' work. RailM-ay Con- Miriictloli — <'ui»lii»<'tii yn», )» nn4l '45. Triilns riiiiiili)i( SVi-.'-l. In I'lld i>r I'milrihl ■_'■>, whi'i'. witiii'ss ilrst took cliarKi' (>r wiirk . <*li;iracti'r of rail- way .'IS coniiili'ti'ii ill -iiu'liii; ol l^T,'. Si'.-I ion II wei; niii>lii'>l. I'liMcl-lii'd coiil- lili'li'il III I'liil SlVilltt'cH reel III. It l)ia- mil on ■_•.',. A Liiiiit iji'nl or III ii^Ui'l; III! ■_' >. l''ll)Ml I.illkO|)Ill.i' west, com raci Ji was uiuiiii.slii'il. Ba'.Iastiiii,' liy original a^irce- meiit paiil for liy tlip yiini ; iiever- t Imloss soMK! work waH palil lor as days' work. CADDY «.50 RnlUvny Con" H I met ion— Contrnft .\o.'^5. W-.rU -till tiicoti (r;u'tur« Immls, run over riiav liu said lo lie sljll vilidcr pro^Toss. Not evorywhero of full wlillh nor now up lo uriuli'. Contrnrt Wo. 11 ^\■<)l■k coinrncne- ins; on 11 when witness took charge. Work lot with tuuicrstandin^' that line was to he iitncnile;!. Work staked out, ' work ?--()n tho lower partf^I'lho contract on the oil^torn onil, tlie\ liaij got out of thoir pits ; they had loft their pits on tho eastern etui aiiil were working on the western end from Linkoping west, and when tliey had finished the ballasting of tho wosttM-n eml tliore was sdtiic ])la('OS thiit had to l)o fixed on the eastern eml, and conteqnontly it [mii them to more expense, and part of it wtis ditching, part ballasting, ami it could hardly bo oslimatetl in any other way than by days' work. 102(1(1. Iliis that section been taken iiltoircther out of the hatids ni the contractor now ? — I do not think so; there is yet work to be (knii' on it. 10207. Whiit kind of work ? — .Inst ditching nnd levelling up the oii'l^ of the bridges, in some places, whore the banks have settled, niakiii;. good Hloj)es in tho banks, and somo rip-raj), retaining walls and tliiiii,'^ of ihatdc^cl■iption. lO.'JOS. Do you Htill make periodical estimates of the work done towaidrt finishing this section ? — Yes. 10;';0y. Has tho contractor any engineer on the spot on his beliall —Ym. 10210. So that the contruction of section 2.') is still under progress',' — ^'oii niiiy say it is; it is not yet finishet look charge ? — They were just comtnoncing 41 when I took charge. 10215. Tho contractors ?— Yes. 1021(5. W^hat woric had beon done on the part of the Govornniont'/ 1 moan bad tho work boon let out ? Had tho location beon coinplctei at tho timo you arrived? — There had been a lino run through llioro that the contract wtis let on, with the understanding thiit it was to bo amended, and work was being laid out on the j;art that was finally located. 10217. AVas tho workshown upon the ground in the usual way by being pegged out ? — Yes, staked out. 10218. Centre lino and also cross soclioning ? — \ei. 10211). And bench-marks? — Y^es ; everything that was necessary foi' tho work. 10220. Over tho whole line, do you say, or only over portions ? — Only over tho portions that v;ero final'y located. Col CADDY -Tlio ori^'iiia! p work iliiiP' )n his bolialr vou fii>t took l(li2i. As Id (lie otlicr ])()itii)tH wliicli liail lu-oii (iiially ioca'i'.l, wliul liad Iteon (loiio llion' ? — CloMriii^ hiid lieon ilono. I»iil llioro wa.> |i:iit ot tlio lino tliiit li:ul to hi,' ainoniii'd and hud to hi) ciciirod yet. Tliero was a line ahont two clniris wide all the way tliroii;;li foi- tht- ;eli'i?raiili. In 1878, I think, tiamshy nuulo some deviations troni thai iiiii'On which the <'ontra(a was lei. The lino on ■which the contract uus let comprised the old tolegi'.\|»h line and the deviations made hy •.tuinsb). 10222. Upon tho wliolo lino of section 41. includinff these portions which wore upon tho orij^inal telegraph, and those which were upon it;ini-*liy'rt deviation, had the line work heen regularly laid out and liiiirlced so as to show the contractor where to do the work if he wished to do it? — Wherever they wanted to work it was laid out for them. Iii22.'{. Then as to tho portions on which thoy did not want the work laiil out, what work had heen done hy the (lovernrnent ? — Tiiere had h'on a lini', as I say. run thro;:i,d) on which the contract was let, but il \':is siilijoct to improvement. Iss-si ctions had licen taken ;iiiil al what ilislance '! — No ; the}' wei'o i\ol talvon. I(l2i5. T am trying to jjct from ynu what was done? — Tiicre wa.'^ iiiliin/^ 'luta piotilo line, a centre line, I'un through, on thoso ilevialions '! (iaHi.-'hy's and conncc;ting with the whole telegraph line survey that wiis I'k'arcd out. 10226. Had there boon crosa-sections taken on the old telegraph line a> 111' ;is it was adopted undei' the contract ? — No ; not for laying out wi>rk. 10227. What is tho nature of the country f)vor those ])ortions of the ,ine which had not boon cross-sectioned and upon which ijuantities could not bo correctly a.scerlaine I ? — It is a very changeable country. There is no five miles of it alike. You run from one doscri]>t.un of (ountry to another. Some runs on sand plains, some on muskeg, some I'll rock, and some on clay. 10228. Then, having that in view, can you 8ay wliethcr, at the time tho contract was lot, it was possible to give accurate ([uantities to any person temlering ? — No ; I do not think it was. 10220. Is there any probability, in your opinion, as an enginoor, thill the quan*ities finally executed vvill be approximately Ihe same :is tlio quantities which vvei'e estimated at the time of tendering, or is it ontiroly a niattei- of chance? — You see, tho line now as finally 1 '(.'iUcd has reduced tho quantities immensely and shortened the line. That was one of tiio fii-st things I sot my mind to, when 1 wont there, 'va- to improve the locaticn as much as possible, and the (jiiantilios -vhon llio lino is finished will not come up to the estimated quantity iy u con.siderablo amount. 10230. Assuming that no change had boon made in the location of 'lie lino, was it probable that tho executed (]uantities would be approx- imately tiio same as tho quantities estimated at tho timcof the tenders ? —In some instances it would, it others in would not. Some classes of work would be very near, where it was earthwork for iii'-fance, but the rock work, loo.se rock particularly, and the muskegji, vary in cha- lactor a great deal. They shiitik to a greatei- or loss j)ercentage. RniUvay Con* xtriiflloil ' C'«>ii(i'a<'( Sn. 41. Wln'iii Mr coii- I lai'Inl s W:ilili"l to \vurk. Ijiii I'cmls lur I lii'hi. < III cit liii iiurl liMix III IJM'' iiiily a |ii<>. Illc aiiil ri'iit ic lliii' run I liirlii'.< liino !is linilly iocatcil iciliiccil 'lU.iiitil Ic- ami sliortciK.'il liiic. Qunntilics wiicn line Is (inlshcd will l)(! iniicli l(»m« than cstlniat' I ■ i|uaniiilcs. I' CADDY 058 RnllM'iiir Coiia hI ■■iiflion — Coiitrnt't Sti, 41. I(l2;{l. Wliut is your opinion now u.s to llio lino .'ictnii'.ly locutoii ? inw- nnKiVt'iH'sim '•• ^''" f^usi-cptililo of ini|)i'ovonu'nt, or do yon tliink it is tlio bn.st i I'drllicr hii- I f ilicrt: was limn III icr (in I veil, Prolmlilo sa\ iiiii hi rosi liy slinr Irr locjil lull lilicdit ).VKI,IKKI. Four ancl a-lialf mills III ilistaiiro SllVf'l. could l»o ^ot ? — I liJivo no doultl, if wo hud j^ot tinio, wo couM si,, huvi- improved thc! lino; Imt I wus vory anxions not to keep tl, contruclors fVoin their work, aiul ^ot tho boht locution that Wiis j,. sible in tho tinio that wo had. 1(I2;{2. To what extent in tlio co-t do yon think it is possIM,. ■„ iinprovf the line, if time had luunt no ohjeel ? — I cMild hardly tell vu'i, I can tell yon what would ho the i)rohal»le ^aviIli^ in cost now as local, i I Ihiidt it would la' holweon ;?U»0,()liU and Jjrt(IO,0()0, bosidos tho Mun.- in di^taneo. 1()2;{3. How iniiidi in distance? — There are al)out lour and icpinri' miles saved in distance. Of course tlu^ capitalize 1 worth of the savi :, in distance will ho accordingly to the trallic on the load. Line lix'al colli I Id2;M. Take tho W(»rking oxponscH as a basis, auil calculating ili,i capital from ihut ? — Ves. I02;{r). Can you form an\' opinion to what e.\N^nt the line ini-ii have been liiither improved if time had I een iioohject -i mean, hoiii i cost and in distance — nr have you given thai siittlcient considcrali i, form any opinion ? — 1 can hai'dly say, bul [ think a very great snvii.; could have bc(n made boih in allignniont and dlstaiun', it we hu'i ha; more time to do it in. .'.'i'whVir ''* l*>'-3(!. Then, from an engineei'ing point of view, do you consider th.r raci was U't. the contract was let too early? — Ves; 1 do not think iho line u:i. lot-ated properly. 'I'lial is ovidcMil from what has been doiio to iiMprnv, it in the short lime liiat was at (uir dispo>al. 10287. Can you give any explanation of the rt'.asons for lellinn- iii contract under these circumsiances, at tho time it was let? — S".\ cannot ; unless it was necessary to have the work in hand at onci'. an! put it under construction. 10238. Do you mean that it might have been mon^ impoi'tant ',o lii' country to have it tinishcd oai'ly, than to save the money which i; would have cost to have finished it at a later date? — That mi'dit l:i. Evidently li:,.| lic'cn lliiaitiht nc been the understanding at tho time. It is very likely it was. 1023!). 1 am not askiiii!; whether it acluallv was ; I am a: ■KIIIl' pessary t(>"iHii, tiie whether, in your Judgment as an onginoer, you can see any riiison lir it? — That is tho reason I would give for it : that it was imjautai^t [•> work in lianil even williont roximniely luivo llic roud mado through as quickly as possible npi ample (lata iK'iifc (lie c'laiisn tiiat I he location 10210. Irrespective of (ho cost? — les; my idea was that it wa? was to b inipioviH neccs.sary to liave the road l)uilt through, and for that reason the coii- tracts wore let with that particular clause : that tho location was to i)e improved; that the lino was siil)ject to improvement. Bcti(>r had there 10241. From whut vou know of tho subject, have you any opi moil botMi more sui vpyinfr before worlc was let. wliothcr a better gonoral location than tho one so obtained could hiiV' been obtained by piittingon a larger staff to make the examination ani locations? — [ think so. [ think that if, before the work had been let at all, there had been more surveying done, it would have been bolter. I think that the lino could have been improved before the contract li: been let, if it were deferred for some time. n:.:} OADDY ion thai \v;i> ;, .. Rnllttny ('oii» •>! I ii«'« Ion - I(l2l2. At proMoiit T iiiii !i-ikiii^ wlictlior it coiiM not liavo Ikh-ii doiu *«••••"'••'*»••'• \yitli.itil ilol'orriii^ it lor any ('.iiisiiloiMltli! tiiiio liy piittini,' on a larj^cr .tail ot hurvevoi's ? — No; 1 do iiol lliinU that. 1)L'I3. So llial lime \vn>< abHoliiU-ly iiocossarv lo liavi'> nuuli' lliis miIi- .moit dm,. '.v.mii.i ., iiuMil iiii|)rovi'iii('ii! wliic'li you (l('sciili(» ?■ — Vc.i ; it was ''*'•'«' -"^i'ly. [,',',',.y'''jj;'''."^"'"''"'' Villi .• I ,':'„'! nVi'v! " '"^' iiiivosceii 12, i, soems to l)o a pretty ;.'o xl ((MUitiy. 11124"?. Tlial is llic- oast end of 42 ?— Vo-*. 10210. It 1. an easier country tlian llio worst part of 1 1 ? — ^o . i:.,-.iri iikih u. 10250. What is the geiiorul nature o|ili(> coiiiniy over llio woi'sl pai'l ,.; il '! — liuck and muskeg. lo2")l. What ))ro]'».)rlioii of 41 in yo'ir opinion is rock- and niii>kcu;. aimjiu ..ii<.-tiiir.| rniuiitry ol thai character '/—A l)(Mt onolliird of it. ' ilmik,'.'^'.''' '""' l(l2r)2. What is llio general (diaraoter of the ri'st of iho lino on 11 ?— Tiiirty-ivmr mii.'s .Vlm<)st all the western thirty-four milos is cl;iy,witli vory lialo niu^kog p,ui si!','ni',m','i'''''"'' "II it. The mid llo part is miiskoi;-, aid s.-md, and rock, and tin' >astorn "■'"■i<; '•i-i n^o-i , . ., I . . , ' I I II , iiin.«ki';,' 11 ml luDsc ]'ait IS all Mil tlio hoavio-it niu~kog work and rock — loose rock. ruck. 102.');i. That la-.t is the portion which has boon lini>liod, and over '-diicli trains are now running ? — Yes. 1 )2r)-l. Can you form any opinion from your past experienco, as lo Ti-Mins win nin ilicpohaMo time when 41 vvill bj tinislu^.l, s> that Ira ns can go over Vs^sV' " '" '"■"'" it .'— I believe, unless there is seme unforesooii cau>e for delay, the Irak will be laiil over it iio.Kt tall, so as trains can go over it. 10255. Do you mean about a year from this time ? — Ves. 1025(!. Will you describe, in a gonoral way, alrmt the force that is t'orce omi)ioyoii iiowemphy-v.'.! upon the work by the contractoi's ? — I think there is i','.a"t'lr'Kio(V'n".',i, :ili(uit l,4i)U men. 10257. And what machinery ? —On the construction they have got lumping-cars and horses and carts. 10258. Steam shovels? — They have got no steam shovels on the (onNtruction, except ballasting ; they have two steam shovels on the Idlasting. 10259. Have you any idea, in round numbers, how many horses they liave employed altogether? — That I could not tell Just now. 10260. Would it be in the hundreds ? — Yes ; there are ovci 100. 1026'. Is the character of the work d )ne on section 41 to vour eatis- Work being done j faction ?— Yes. ' wuisfuctorny. atui lior's(!s iimj nmcliliKMVv. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I mil T o 12.2 (iir e m ^ m 12.0 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 ■• 6" ► Photographic Sciences Corporation ss. #^ k #^ .<^. •t. *t>^ * ^ ^ •« -* \\ 6^ % ^^ . And instead of that they claim for the borrowed material, and for the measurement of the material that had been wasted ?- Ves;ili;i'. is one ol the things they have asked the engineer t<5 grant, becaua- J will not. 10270. is there any further subject of disjiuto ? — I cannot reiiicinbo. of anything just now. 10271. Have you found in the estimated mea-uremontsof :hociiiliaiii':-j ments over nuiNkegs, that there has been any -erious ml>tal:pcrionce. ng, by boring, the ith muskeg work vouredtonHcertain )oring?r-Vo.s; the RnlUvay C'oii» siriicilun — engineers sound them all as tliey go along; that is part of the duty of *-'«"*»•««*«"• '-i^^- I ^ I,,,.,, 1 1 ,,,, KiiiliitiikinriitM lliCle\0llei. .,vtTmu*ko«.s, 10274. I)o you eniiiloy ci'ossdogging on the muskegs ? — in very few rases on our work. Whenever wo can tlrain it j)ruperly wo do away with it. 10275. Have you noticed whether thei'c has been much shrinkage A frioat denioi lifter liie line had been apj)aronlly made up to formation level ? — Yes; mVi' mVuM npVo it .-ettles, and will settle for years' across mu^kegs. We have to cut '"I'liiiition levf',. down bridges as much as three feet on the contract. 1027''. To coincide with the adjoining ro.addjed ? — Yes ; to I'cduce the ifrade. I could show you, if you like, some cross-sections taken across contract 2.). 10277. Have you any knowledge of the country north or south of the line near Lake Superior ? — No; 1 do not know the ctountry there except tioni seeing tlio proliles of work that has been gone through. 10278. You mean surveys ? — The only information 1 have of the country is from surveys that have been made, the profiles of which 1 have seen. 10279. You moan surveys that have been reported in the books ? — 1 mean McLennan's exploratory surveys. 10280. But \ou have no knov/ledge of your own ? — No. Coiifrnct No. 11. 10281. Has any portion of section 41 been taken off the contractor's X(i portion of sec- 1 I 9 XT^ t'"" '1 taken otl hands .''—No. contractors lumd^. 10282. Do yop understand that the whole must be comi)lcted before any portion is taken off his hands ? — Yes. 10283. It is upon that basis that you arc pi-ocoedin^ in the mutter ? —Yes. 10281. Can you say williout exactness about what pro])ortion of the line, as linally located, was so located when you arrived ? — There was about twenty seven miles up as far as the Gull Kiver on the east end. 102S5. Have you ever given an \' consideration to the prices of the Prices for earth tender ior this Work ?— Yes ; I tliink the prices for the earth work pHeesnor'. "''''"" Avas very low when 1 fiist saw the work, and the jirices for the other work were fair. 1028(). Did you consider whether the prices as a Avholo were propor- tionate or disproportionate ?— To other work, do you rf.can ? 10287. No; to each other. It is sjioken of as consistent or incon- siHlent in some places ? — The price lor ballast I consider to be a fair ])iice. The price for earthwork I consider low. The ])rico for rock work, I think was just about as litllo as it could bo done ior. 10228. According to that there would not bo the price of any of the work which would make it the advantage of tho contractor to increase the quantities upon one classification, and decrease it upon another ? —Yes ; it would. 10289. That la the rca.eon T am asking you about consistency of contractors make ])ricos ?~For instance, the muskeg. Tho contractors mako moro out Jui'iski*^'.* °^ of muskeg than anything olso in the way of excavation. 10290. Y''ou moan more in proportion to tho price? — Yes. CADDY C5f) Hallway Coii- striict Ion- Contract No. 4 1 . Work measured In oxpavatioii jukI iiioro Is required of miiskcK to iiiitke ii htink tlian of other ■niat'^rliil. I'ii) inls of iiuiK- kffi to KM) yards of bank. " I 'onslsteiU " f untie rs. Contract II iiicon- >islotU. Less rock work and more mu-skeg Jjest for contrac- tor. 10201. A Iju'goi' percentage of the piico is gain? — Exactly. 10292. For what reason ? — Tt i.s easier work, and there is a (rna; shrinkage in it. The work lias to bo mcas-u -ed in excavation aiid i: (ikes more of it to do. You have to take more o it of the pit to niaki.' up a bank. For instance, take a ])ioce of bank that will have 100 y:iiii> ill it. In some muskegs it will tuke 150 yards to make 100 yards (if bank. 10293. Do you moan that the material which is taken out of ihoM' muskegs, and which shrinks in the way you describe, is taken out at loss price to the contractor than other material? — Yes; that is exactly it. From that illustration I have given you, you will see tlia; ^ exactly what 1 moan. 10294. Then wherever cai'thwork is require 1 f )r purpose of liliif;- in muskegs the price per yard for that sort of earth work ought l.. U less than other earth work? — Yes. 1029.). And the tender that is ba'^cd upon the same price (or littli < ; those kinds of earth work is not a consistent tender ? — Unless the con- tractor cxj)ected to use this mu->kcg. For instan(;o, the conliact"; might in making his tender know that he hatl a certain auKuiiit. .• sand or clay, and a certain amount of muskeg. IFo might make i:i average of the price, knowing that he could use this mu->Uog at ;, greater prolit, 1021)6, Have 3'ou any understanding about the term oi- the wi;! "consistent'" which is often used by engineers when appliel to tiie different prices in a tender of different kinds of work? — Ido not iiiikr- fctand it the way you say. 10297. 1 have assumed from what I have read and heard from otlni engineers that " consistent " means this: thtit a man will make about t'\>: same percentage of profit upon each kind of work, po that it is no; material to him what kind of woi'k is diminished or increased, lorlli. same percentage of loss will ajjply to them all. An inconsistent tondoi'. as 1 undortaiid it, is tliis: that some works he will make a ]n'olit o; and others he will suffer a loss on, and that a change of the kind oi work will be a benefit or loss to him, according to llio classifieation ot ihe quantities ?— Then I consider that it was an iiiconsistent coiitrart— contract 41. The prices were inconsistent. 10298. Tn what respect? — Foi instance, if seme classes of woi-k weio reduced the contractor would lose more money than he would if nther classes of work were reduced. 10299. Is there any other item besides this earth filling in nuii^kej:- to which that inconsistency could bo applied to any extent in the can' of contract 41? — N'o ; I do not know that thero is. I think tluit iho rock price is just about as low as it possibly could be to get it done a; all. I do not think the contractor will make much money on the rock work. 10300. Then the less rock work and the more muskeg filling this contractor has the better for bim? — Yes. 10301. Have the deviations which have been made, and on which the cost has been diminished, been in the direction of saving rock?- Yes. 657 CADDY -Ido not n\\.\ Rnllwny C'on« MiriK'tinn— ,,,,,.., 11. I 1 Couli-acl Xo. 41. 10302. 8) that the deviations luivo not resulted in any lo.'is to the p^^.^.j^j,,,„^^,f |,|j,^ (luiructor ? — 1 think not, in the ijorcontaifo. have n'sniiiMi in no loss tocon- 10303. If thoy have been in the direction of usin^ more muskeg i'"'*'^''^"''- c-mltunkmont than would have been used on tlie olJei" line? — No, 1 ihink there is le^s ; if anything le.-.s muskeg and less rock. 10304. Tlien ihc larger proportion of work lias been in ordinary ah wostmi .xcavalion -^ es ; (J r«> Coiitrnrt !%'o t 1'. .1. Hiown, iiiaiiiiLfia'. It. Oliver. Da\ iilsDU 10310. Kor somebody else? — Yes; for Olivei-, Davidson & Co. 10311. Do any of tho principals live near the lino? — No. 10312. Is Brown living roar the line any portion of the year? — He liiis generally been at the Landing once a year. lie was once last Miramcr and I believe this summer. 1 did not see him this summer. 1U313. In Ills absence who has charge of tho work of tho line on the Xcii M>if(iou'j;aii, si,ot?-Ncil Macdougall. i^^l^S" a" ^ uie. 103U. Where docs ho live?— At Fort William. 10315. In what capacity? — I su])pose hois manager of the line, as i;ir as Eagle Lake, I think it is. That is the only one that I know of. 1031G. Is he an operator ? — He operates too. 10317. Are tho mes-^aa-es repeated at Eagle Lake, or do ihev go on Mos>a.res npoat- io Hal Poi tago ?— 1 think they are repeated at Logle Lake. ' ' <"^' '" '"^'^"''^ ^^''■*"" 10318. That is the end of your section ? — Yes. 10319. Who is the operator there ? — I do not know. 10320. What is the arrangement about messages over that section of Canadian I'ariii.- the line connected with the lailway business? — They arc supposed to .![|,'Jr',',!^\'auI"pn»- Uike precedence of others. coiience of ot iiers. 10321. Are thoy paid for? — No; we do not paj- anything. Not paid for. 10322. Are you enabled to send messages connected with the line without expense ?— Yes. 10323. And without delay? — No; not without delay. Frequent delays. 10324. Docs it often happen that delay prevents you sending mes- sometimeK a Mii,'CH ?— Yes ; once you pass the end of contract 41 the line is very [\\'^.^^'',','|,^ {JJf^f'''' uncertain. Sometimes you do not get a message through for a month, moiuh. 1 have had a message kept over that 1 did not get for a month after- wards. 10325. Is there any portion of the year when communication seems lobe bettor kept up than at other portions of the year ? — No; it varies. 42 ■--'iM • ^ U- CADDY 658 T«'I<-Kr»|iIi— JtlMinlniaiK'r. Colli I'll <' I y», i- Line not hcttcr in!iiiilMiiii'(l in \\'liitcr thiiii ill Huniimr. Delays nrisc Ironi line biinjr down. Polos not put In properly whert" there Is rock. On 11 poles fall by reason of rottln;^ ; wood bail and in- Bulutor.s come oil'. Insulators nut iironerly put np in tlic llr.si instance. Life of poles ao- oordlnKtoiinalily Of wood: of tani- .For a short liniL' il miiy work very well; then it takes a liini th, other way, and doea not work lor a week. Vuu eaiinoi get a nKs>;i;:, from Winnij)e^ lor a week. 103-(). I)(t you know whether the rule is that the lino is belter man,- laiiied in winter than in Miriinior, or the leverM'? — [ do not think ii i- the rule. KKJ27. It has bt'eii represented that where there is much water ii|ivi! the line in winter, the lino is workable with lessdelay than in siininiei-, t(»r the reason that ice becomes an iii.-ulator ; tlo you know wlielhci' that has proved so in your own experience? — Yes, whenever ice t'unn> on the wire ; but that is only occasion.-illy througii the vvintor, and ;;oii- erally at the beginning of winter, I Icnow. 10828. To what do you attribute tiiesc delays in the transmission,! messages? — i fancy it is from the line being down — gotting ktiocko', down or blown down — the polos not being properly ])ut up.^ 10329. Did you say that througli the woodel portions the openini:- wore two chains wide? — Yes; that is the width of them — two chains, 1 think. 10330. Do you know whether the poles are knocked down by trees falling on thorn, or is it from tho defootivo construction originally ?— It is very seldom the trees fall on it. 10331. What sort of polos are in use over that section? — All sorts- tamarack, spruce, and pine — that is about tho principal woods they uso, 10332. Do you attribute tho falling of the poles to the material ot tho poloi-', or tho insufficiency of the >uppoi"t at the bottom? — I fancy that (;ii 42 tliere was so much rock, tho [)oles are not put in properly, 103iJ3. But on 41 and eastward? -On 41 whore it fails is from tho polos falling down alter rotting off. It is bad wood and the insulalois come otf. Sometimes a lot of insulators corao oft" in the storms, aiil tho wires drag on the ground. 10334. Have you soon them in that condition ? — Yos ; and have pat them up. 10335. Often ? — I have seen them often. 103.'i(». Do you think they were sutficiontly put up in tli' fir.-t instance — tho insulators? — No; I do not think that they were pro])cn} put UJ). 10337. I understand you to say that tho insulators would becomo detached, although tho poles might remain tirm ? — Yes; when one pole falls down it knocks out a lot of insulators from tho others. 10338. Do you mean that tho insulator is put in with tho grain at the top of the pole? Will a nail or anything hold us tirmly length- ways in the grain as cross-wise ? — No ; it will not. 10339. Is that more decidedly tho case in soft woods, such as yoa describe? — Yes; of course. Tho softer the wood is tho less resistance there is and it will rot quicker. 10340. Have you noticed that tho poles have fallen from rotting off? — Yos ; in a great many instances. 10341. Have you any idea of the average life of poles made of tlio wood which you describe ?— For instance, tamarack— I think a tan . .rack G59 CADDY kes a (urn li,' I >;iu', I is belter ni;i'!.- (> not tliink il i- null Wilier iii>n! .hail in ^ll^lm^'^ know whellici' nevei' lee t'ul■ln^ vviuLor, {UkI \;cii- 3 ti'finsmission ^it getting kiificko'. t up., ons the openin.u'-i icm — two eh;iiii<, i down by tree- n originally ?— ll on? — All sorts— II woods they vbo, ) the materiul >• lottom?— I fancy put ill properly. fails is from tho Ind the insulators the storm.-', and 3S ; and have pat up in th'' lii'^t ley were proi)orly irs would becoino 1h ; when one polo Ithers. nth the grain at 18 tirmly length- ^)d8, such as yoa 10 less resistance from rotting otl"? ioles made of the thinkatnii.a'ack 'I'clrU'rnpli — ."tliiiiitniniK't'a ,(,|ewill last alxut ten years at the outside, before rotting. liV. 1 ibiiik ♦-'""•••"♦•t *"»• «■ ■isprwec polo will i.oL last more than tlire(> or four. I'ine poles last ;'!%nl°'\\;i:^yr,;p iir(»b:il'l\' from seven to ten years, recording to the cliaiaeLer of liio i<>i\v: pinciniiu .Toiuid. It will rot t|uieker in sand than an\ thing else. M\tii o en. 10;U2. Jluve voii toi'med any opinion of the proportion of tiioi-e (freim^r iirupor- ,litlorciit woods used in the [xdes of this line 41, and eastwards ?— No ; ],'.;'.',^';',|;;;';,;:""' ^^ iiiit I sa\' the gi'oater proportion arc cither jack pine or spiuee. -luucc. \0:\V.]. Since you have had experier.ce on (he lino, over wliich you i.ino not iircp.Tiy liiive charge, do you consider that the line has l)ecn cllicicntly mnin- "'"""■""'''• j.,i,n.ii V — Nstt. 1 do not think it has been looked after properly. I do iKit think it has been maintainctt properly. i( it had been maintained |.iv)neilv wc coulil have got messages through quicker. 10341. Could 3'ou i-ay, in a general way, about what proportion (jf Quinicr c>niii.e tho time, sintte you have been there, (he line has licen out of working !;V,\7hrnnL'h.''' '^'^' iiidor'i' — All (he way thiough to Winnipog ? 10345. Vcs? — 1 shouUl (hiiik tiboi ( onc-(iuarler of the time that you could not get u message through. 1034(!. Have you any idea whether (hat is due to defects south of Selkirk, oi' oast of Selkirk, as a rule ? — 1 could not say that. I siiould fancy it was from the east of Selkirk, betvveen P^aglo Jiiverand Selkirk. 10.347. South of Selkirk, over what counti'y is the line consti-ucted ? —1 am not personally acquainted with it, but I should say it is prin- cipally aflat prairie, or bush land. 1034S. Assuming that it was altogether on the west side of Eed River, have you any information of (he character of thecountiy ? — No. 1 do not know it personally. 1034'.'. Have you spoken at any tijnc to any of (hepai-ties in charge riflho telegTa|>h work as to the delay, or the nisutficicncy of tiie main- tenance? — 1 have spoken to tho man in charge theie. 103r)0. Who is that ? — Macdougall ; and 1 have also spoken to our head iiffice. 10351. Where ?— At Ottawa, b''352. Has this been tVoquently — T mean tho complaining either to i''ivi,iKiitiy rom- Maccougall or the head office ? — 1 have complained to the head office '' ''''"^^• once or twice, and written about it, reporting that it v/us woi king very Uidly. 10353. Do you know whether there is much general business done over this line? — I think there is a good deal. 10354. I mean irrespective of the railway business — the Government liiisiness ? — Yes ; irrespective of the railway business theie is a good deal. 10355. Do you know anything of tho rates charged over tho Oliver \ Davidson portion ?— No ; I do not. 10356. Do you know what staff of men arcemjiloyed in repairing or Thn.inonat maintaining this line?-l o.ily know of three men. I have seen three work occusion- nien at work on our division. 10357. Are those men kept steadily at work, oi- only occasionally? -Only occasionally. 10358. Is there anything further that you wish to say by way of evidence? — No; there is nothing tliat i can think of. 42A PARR 660 >¥ n Bflxon'd Pnr- vryor«lil|i— Stor«'H AK'Olllll. .loiiN ]'arh, Hworn and oxumined : BiJ the Chairman : — 1035!^*. Whci-o do you live ? — Winnipof,'. lOIJGO. ]I()vv long have you lived here? — Since the winter oi' IS'To lO.'Jdl. JIavo you had any connection willi the I'acific llail\v;i\ /— V cs. •■Storp-kcopi'i' IVdim 'ipriiivr f)t' In".') to ^uuiiiK'r of l!SN(J. Dulios. For most of tlinc ahsent from store. ■Store-l)ook shows amount of t;ooUs received and issued. Contains ac- oounts of (.'una- tlian Pacific Railway, Mount- ed Police, Indian iind private stores 10|]()2. In what capacity? — I used to act as stoi'Ofj' man. l?.'U;i]. iJuring what time? — Fiom the Kpiiiig of 1875 1o Jilioiit :, month ai^o. ]0:{<)4. What were j'our duties? — In my rchitions rcs])ectin!r li.,. Canadian i'acitic Jlalivvay ? 10:30'). Yes? — I used to fetch. the mail down and look aftci- tlic .sjip. mont of all the goods; and if any of the ongineorH wanted anythirii,' l!.; (ent me to ,lo ; . ]0.'{(Jt). Anything further ; what was your piirnipal duly? — I canii ,: tell you. lO.'JGT. Did you not take charge of the stores?— I did. lO.'JGS. Was that your princijjal duty ? — I was not the principal p;i:: of my time in the store-house. I am tlioi'O once a week, may he on,, a day, or may he once in two wieks. 10360. Then for most of the time you were absent from the .store' — Yei. lOHTO. Did yoii keep any books in connection with the busine^jso: the stoi-e? — jSo bookd but ihe one in your hand. 10,'}71. What do you call it : do you call it a le Iger ? — Xo. 10372. A day-hook ?—Xo. 10373. Can you give it some name?— 1 call it a stoiv-h lok, 10374. Did j-oii keep any other book? — No. 10375. What i,s this book intended to show ?— To show the anion;' of the goods that was received into the stoi-o and issued out. 10376. Does it relate only to the Pacific Railway stores? — No; llieiv is more than that. There is some Mounted Police, some private ami some Itidian. 10377. When you say private what do you mean ?— Coi. Richardson used to send up goods here addres.sed to himself, and i would have to keep track of them. 10378. No other private goods? — Yes; policemen's effects — package^ and bags and satchells, trunks and things like that. 10370. Did you make entries of all such goods as (hat in this book? — Y'es; to the best of my recollection, I did. 10380. Then this store-book was intended to contain entries of all tlie goods from every source which went into the store ? — Yes. 10381. Is that what you mean ? — Y''e8 ; that is what I mean. 10382. Does it contain entries of goods that were issued out of tlie store ? — Yes. GO I PARR duty ? — I (.'anii'ii from llic stuii ,h the busiiie^ Xixoii*D Piir- v«!y«iri»liip— 10;}F3. Are the values of the ^'oods mentioned in the book ?— Xo ; I «««»«• Account. did not know anything at all about the values; there are sonu', I think, not mT>iVnou".a.'" ihouijh. 10381. NVas it a gonori.l practice to mention the values ?— No ; it was not. 10.'i85. Besides ordinary i^ooils were animals ])la(:ed in your chai'i^e sysu m nistoro- as st(ire-kee])oi' ? — Sometimes; HU]»poso a sub ajfent brought them jp, }|^',''''""« "-'""'"''**' and he was retained on, he would look after the horses iiutil they wci'C l-laced away some place ; but suppose a suba^^ent came in from the west, and broujjjht in forty horses, he and the man would bo kept on to look aftoi" the horses until they were sent out to the Monnonito settle- ment, or some place like that. 10381^ Would your book show any record of the transaction ? — No; there would be a receipt in the office from the party who got them. 10387. Were you in the office as a rule?— No; I was principally on tlio street. 10388. How (lid you come to know that there would le a receipt in the (ittice '.■' — [ have scon receipts. 10389. On every occasion ? —No ; I could not say on every occasion. 10390. Then why do you say there would be receipfs there ? — Beciiuso I have seen some. 10."'91. Do you moan yo'i think there aic i-occipls ihore, br.t you do hot know ? — No ; 1 have seen some receipts from the Monnonites. 1039:^. What do you moan about seeing receipts in the office ? You have voluntered some statement about thai, and I want to see what tho statement amounts to ? — I have seen I'cceipts in th'j office from parlies '.vlio 1,'ot the things. 10393. Do you mcu'in to s;iy that receipts wore alwjiys given and Icll •n the olfice, or not ? — No; 1 (1<; not. 1039i. Therefore, it is bettor to confine your answer lo my question. 1 \v;is asking what happctied under your knovvledue. Would }'( ur l«H)ks show any record (»!' the tiansaction which you have describetl :il."iul the return of a lai-ge (|uaiitity of horses which were afterwards taken into the countiy V— Tlie shipping-book would. 103!t5. Is the shipping book your book? — I look after it occasionally. 10396. T made use of the words your book? — 1 do not undeislaiid you. 10397. I asked you a little while ago if you ke|tt any book, and you said you did and pointed to the sto!-e-boolc, and now 1 ask you about your book. What book do you think I mean ? — There would be no ieeord of it in that bot^k. 10398. Would there be any record of it in any book which you 1 avc tiny control of, or had then control of? — Unless the shipping book. 10399. Had you a shipping-book ? — Yes. 10400. Where is it ? — Some place horo (witness looks for the book). 10101. Explain the nature of this book which you say you kept — wliich you call the shipping-book ?— This was tho account of the goods that parties got going out — surveying parties. bijuk. PARR GtjJ 9Iixoii*« Pur- veyiU'NllIp— ^iloi-CH Account • No ni;iti'riiils In iiook to show the JinltniiK which <'amo liitoiUHl liM't III chiirtic of •VltlR'SM. Al)ont twice !i .voiir aslioil to miiko 11 statement, sliowliif,' stores ill Ills chargu. Mnihi statement of wliat ho found jn stock. No rocolpl-bonk 111 .store. Wltiifiss's (liities SIS storc-kGCiior tMided July, l.S7!> ; but In charge until ho t uriiod goods over to Scott In spring of IS*}. lOlO-. Would tlio.xc lixjks liavc relrfoiico to pioportio.s whicli vi liiid iindof youi'coiitrf)!, or the supplio.s vvliicli otlior jiartics ftirnis||,..| llir siii'vcyiiin' j)iifli(!> or otlior hooks 'i* — T1h'\' woid J rtdorto l».)tli. Tlnv would coiitiiiii ctilrios of |iro))City wliicli 1 had coiitnd ol, and Mi|)ulit'- ui o'Jior j)Ooj)lc. 10403. Now would tho^'o shipping-hooks show the traiisaclions wliji i, yoa have doscrihed — that is tht* receipt ol'iuunbers ofaniiuals returiiel I'roni survoyiii;^ pai'ties '(* — No. lOIOi. Is tlioro any hook wl^i^;h^vollld sliow that? — I tiiitdv so (luok- ing ut the storcdiook). 10405. Of cour.sc, you iindorstand tliat tiiy quoHtioii relates to li,,.. f^eiieral jji'ticLieo, and not to ,siii^';le traiisaclions? — i think the geiicrai transactions were put in tiiis hoolc. 1040(1. II it was necCHsaiy to nudio up a stati-inent now IVoni lli(>.' books for the purpose ot showing all tiio animals which were in ymi! ohai'^c at iiny time, and of the animals which left your ehari^e, au' there materials in this hook to show that siiUieiently ? — No. 10107 Why not? — Well, there were horses died, liorHos lost, ilmt 1 could not keep truck of. There would be no truck oi' them in that hmi; 10-IOS. Then is it possible from these books whicli you had, to usee,"- tain now the result ol'ull the transactions upon tliat subject ? — No. 10400. AVere you tisked from time to time to make up statements V; show what property was left in your charge ?— Ves. 10410. At what intervals? — About twice a year, V think. 10411. Upon what basis did you makeup that stittement; was!: from what the books showed, or from what you found to l)e preseiii in your custody ? — From what 1 found to be present. 10412. Did 3'ou ever attempt to ascertain whether what was fomil to bo p jsent in your custody wotild a/i;ree with the entries in the book- which you had made, ordid you roly entirely upon your sense of siglii .' — J think I relied upon my setiso of si^ht. 10413. Do you know whether any rocei))t in writing was given bv Mr. Nixon, or anyone else, when goods or animals were returned?— I do not know. 10414. For instance, supposing;; a surveying paity woidd rctuiu thirteen animals? — Yes; I would give receipts for them. 10415. Did you keoi> '^"y I'^^o'"*' of those receipts? — No; only wlm't was in my books. 1041(3. There was no book out of which receipts were alwavs cut'.'— No. 1041*7. No stub ends to trace them now ? — !No. 10418. Did Mr. Nixon sometimes give receipts himself for mh property? — I could not sa\- ; I rather think not. 10419. When were your duties ended as store keeper? — A yeurag" last June or July. 10420. Was any store continued after that time? — Yes. 10421. Who took charge of it ?— i had to take charge of it. m:i PARR think so ( IdoI;. ■e uhviivrj cul'.'— 10422. Aftor your (lutioM oiidc'd ? — Vos ; iiiiLil I luriu-J thorn over to Ml. Scott horo some tirno hist spring. 10423. Then youi; (lutiort (lid not end until some lime hiit spring u.- ^;ii a^ those stores wore concornoJ ? — X ■ ; perhaps I ought not tosngge.^i ■inything. 10124. Ye.^, suggest unylhing ? — Well, I got things in charge yet iliut no one vvouldi take over. 1012"). Iliive you otForeVhat was the first knowledge that you had of it? — A mo-'- -eiigor came up to my place in the morning — that is the first know- ! 'liiro 1 had ot it. 10437. Who was the messenger? — A man named JV.iiley. 10438. What then ?— He told mo the otfico was i-obbed. I said : "robbed of what?" Ho said ho did'nt know. I said there was nothing there to rob. He said it was robbe 1 and asked what was to be done, so I camo down. 10430 What did you see ?— I saw the books and papers knocked aroiuid on the office floor. 10440. Did you soo any means by which a peison ha — Siorcii Accoiiiil. 'I'liiiiijs 111 oliiirijo lliilt IllMllli' Wuulil, tllUo OViT. Mi'ssf'iii;i>r ainl slilppiT I'lir • ';iim- (liilll I'iK'ltir Kiiihva.N . Tiiiii|><>riiiK uiili PnperN. Oltii'col ( 'iihfiiliau i'licnir- KiiUwiiy liroken into. Fouml l)i)ok,s and papers oa ottlco ll'ior. PARR ()64 \* >n v«>y«r>ihlii— Tniii|icrliiK Willi l*BIIOI'Ht Nix( II assisted ■witness in assurt- iDK |ii |iers. 10441. flow (lid it appear that any person had cnteicd ? — It wouM ap|»oar that thoy had conio in through the window of Mr. iNixon's dllico. 10442. Was any pcrHon oUo prohont '.OHidos Bailey and you rM-lf.'- Thoro was Mr. IIoHpoIor, Capt. ITovard, Mr. Liixton, Mr. Sniitli, 1 think, and Mr. Pierre, and young Mr. lIoHpolor. 1044;}. What was done? — Tlioy looked around at it, and saw th,* hooks and papoiss there on the Hoor, and I do not know whether it \v;i< ('apt. Howard or Mr. Luxton said thorc^ was no use in allowing Ihotp. to Mo there, f had hotter put them into a box, and I gathered tluMii up and put thorn into the box. 10444. Do you know whether they hiivc over boon assorted ^!ll(■^.'.■' — \o» ; I think thoy have. 10445. Did you take any part in tho assorting?— Yes. 104 ifi. Who else ?-l do not knov.' whether Mr. Currie did or not, 10417. Did any person else assist you in assorting thoni ?-Mi' i^ixon did. 10448. Had ho been at homo, at Winnipeg, during the breaking int.; tho olKco ? — Xo; he was not homo. 10440. Whore was he? — I, think ho was down in Ottawa, oi' diwi: east tjomo ])laco. 104.')0. Was it undorstofxl generally at that "iini' that ho Wiis at ih'. ciist ? — I do not know ; but I think it would o round town. 10151. Did you understand that ho wont down to visit some iricnils; — I do nf)t i-omoinbor whether ho was called on business, or wheili..! li wont down to vi?it. 10452. One of the Blue Books printed in 1878 shows that bo uiis under examination, on tho j5th April, 1878, before a Committee of t'\(. jlouso of Commons ; do you know whether h'.' was away on tii!!' occasion at that time ? — I could not swear that that was tho timo uiilo- 1 knew. 10453. In the assorting of tho papers, do you know whether ilu ]^a]iors were all forthcoming again, or whether any wore missing''--! do not know. I do not know whether there were anv books raisbinu; but about papers and vouchers, 1 could not toll. Kf)nie of iiie i)un- 10454. Woro they Very mucli disturbed ? Wore thoy in bundle-, ro any of tho bundles scattered around the floor, opiTi/ami'^svHUer- wero any of tho bundles open ? — Some of tho bundles woro open :iiil ctt. 1C455. Tn detached pieces or i i collected parcels? — Some of thcin \n d(;taclied pieces and some in parcels, the same as monthly account^ would be. 10456. Do you know who took part in the breaking in ?— I do not, 10457. Do you know whether any steps were taken to ascertain :it that time who broke in ? — Not that I know of. There was no one hoiv but Mr. Currie and Capt. Howard. 10458. Is there anything further which you wish to Fay by way oi' evidence or explanation of your previous testimony ? — About anything:' (]G5 PARR 10450. Anything you wIhIi to say connoctod witli tho Pacitic liail- \v;iy •li''«t5l'ly or indirectly? — No; nolliing. Of coui'so my opinion ^utuld nut bo anything anyway. lOifiO. r am speaking as to factH within your Isiilt of th(jsc inquiries? — I have not recorded tho result excei)t in my memory. 1041)8. Would you bo able, witlnnit my asking fpiestions upon t ho ilitl'orcnt features of tiie mattei', to give us a general statcmoni of it ? — As to inundations ? 10KJ9. Yos ? — I can sjioak moi'e particularly as to information I have received with regai'd to tho flood of 18;')^ and tho flood of 18lJl. I iiave had many convoisations with a numler of por^ons who wore !v-iilcnts in tho country at the time and received a good deal of infor- mation from them. From tho result of tiuvM; convort-ations and from '.'itaiu data I have taken, and observations I have mado myself, 1 should siy that iho channel of the livor had vor\' much iacivased, so largely ii)crcased that I hardly think there is any danger of ;r-y j^orious fiood again oc curing. lOJTO. Do you mean tlie Ked River? — The Red River and tho Asfii- iieboino. A memorandum of data 1 have, referring to tho Assineboino. As I happen to live on the banks of it; within 500 or OOi) yanls of Rod Kivcr, I have mado observations on the rapidity of tho cuiu-ent for two r)i' three jears, and I have data as to the cnhirgoment of the river at 'hat [toint. 10471. Do you mean the widening of the river when you say enlarge- ment? — The widening of tho i-iver and tho deepening of the channel, ii^ there has been a considerable amount of scouring going on. When 1 was here first I had constantly to go up in boats to the Lower P''ort where we had a detachment. hJubsequently I have been in the habit OOL. W. O. SMITH. Kullnii>' liUcna lion— Keil Kivfi- I nillKlMtlOPHa ni'Iiuly.AdJululil- ( ■('iii'i'iil. Piirt or his iluly us stlUrnlllfcr to iiiiikf liimscir .'((•• HHmIdIimI Willi physlciil coiicll- lloiis or thi' (•oiiii'r\-. CliRTinpI of Red ami As^|lU'l)onu■ Rivers so iniicli Wiil0l'(>(l, little danger of Inun- dations. OOL. W. O. SMITH 6CG Railway Loca- tion— Rffl Kivcr Inundation. ftf \Vi(li'ne(l ospooi- ally where hanks are level, wliloh extends twelve ,!»■ i.illes from Whi- »■• nl )eK; thence to ;:u Se kirk more ,.L jiriivelly and » rocky. «» !\. I'^i date of last preat flood. River widened bv one-third even whore the shores are tirm. On the Assiue- boine found hy Jiieasurements 1h ud 21() feet. Rapidity of cur- rent from two five ciyrhtM to 2'7K miles per hour. f of going down every year to the mouth of the river, and I have noticed that the river ia very hirgely widened, more parlicuhii'ly whoiv tin- banks are leveller. 10472. How far does that ])Ortion extend ? — I should say about twelve miles. 10473. And from that point north what is the geiiei-al chai-acler nt the bank? — From that jtoiiit iiorlh, nearly as far as Selkirk, it is more gruvelly and more rocky. That ))ortion also, from information I have received from old residents, must have widened \oyy largely since lSj2, which was the last serious flood. The flood of 18(J1 does not appear lu have been anything like as large in extent. 10474. As to the widening of that portion which is bounded by linn banks, do _\ u remember from the information of these old seltloi^, what judgment you formed as to the extent of the widening ?— In one parlicuiar ]ilace 1 should imagine there was fully one-third of tm- river — that is at the point twelve miles away from here, whei'e, as funi- 1 can understand, the channel was very contracted and where a jam uscl to take ])lace and throw buck the water in this poi-lion of the eoiuitiy. 10475. 1)0 you mean that we should understand that you wore ninli r the impression that the river had thus vvidened one-third beyond wlmi it was in 1852 ? — Yes; my informant is a man who lived on the ])oi)i! which was then enlii'ely washeil away. In fact, as he expi-ossod i;, "a good sized farm had gone," — a man named Joseph Monkman wli. lives at Poquis. 10470. From your own personal observation have you formed any opinion as to the natural ]jrogrei-s of the widening of the |)urlinii bounded by (he firm banks? — No; I could not say that because I liavi' never lived down in that portion, and I have only noticed it from goin- up in boats. 1 can give you an idea, from data that I have extiactid this morning from old memoranda, of the widening that is going on in the Assineboine. Of course, that is level, and it rather surprised mo The two first I am going to mention were from actual chain measmv- ments made under my own superintendence. One that was made tlii- morning. I was not present at it because I had something else to do: but it was done as carefully as ])Ossible by carrying a cord across tlio river. The first measurement was taken from bank to bank in l^T-l when the ice was in the rivei-, that was 12 ) feet. Jiy Mr. Keefcr : — 10477. Is that at water surface? — No; from bank to bank. TIk' banks are veiy upright thei-e. Thei'e is not moi-e than a ditferencc "t ten feet of slope. In 187<) it had increased to 132 feet, and this mornin:: the measurement given me was IMO feet from bank to bank, that is !■ say, it had increased f. om a chain and three quarters to a little ovci three chains in six years, lean give j-ou the rapidity of the cui'i'Oin taken from observations. In 1877 it was /^ miles per hour, this w;i- at the time of the breaking up of the ice, when the ice was rusliini: awaj' and the cui-ront was at it;? strongest; in 1878 very nearly lln same result was given, but I have not the actual figures. In IbT'J I took them very carefully intlecd, in conjunction with Mr. rrrahaiii,oi the Land Office and the result was very ne.irly the same, 278 miles jtoi' hour. GOT Col. W. O. smith and I have noticed iularly where the should Huy about iioral clr.xrnoter m Selkirk, it is more nfbrmation I have largely since 1852. does not appear tu ■s bounded by tirm these old seltlei'\ Lhe ^\'idonin^;• ?— In lly one-third of \\w re, where, as fara- id where a jam hspI ion of the couiitiy. hatA'ou wore iiiHlii' third beyond what lived on the ])oiiit. ■; he expres,>*o(.l ii, ■ph Monkinan vvhu e you formed any ng of the ])()rliiui hat because I liave ticed it from i^oinc t I have extracte'l that is goiniij on in Lther surj)rised mc. ual chain measuiv- lat was made thi- netbing else to do; r a cord across the ^k to baidc in bT-1 uk to baidv. The an a ditVerenco "l t, and this mi>riiiii^ to bank, that i.s I' u-s to a little over iity of the curreni per hour, this wa« ico was riisliini: ^ very nearly th' j;uros*. In IbT'J I ]) Mr. Graham, 01 anio, 2-78 miles per I it be absorbed into the gr->iind to diminish the ])r ot llie Assi- i eboinc ? — Certainly. 10483. As to the effect upon probable iiiundalion by the widening of tiio ris'er banks, have you formed any opinicm whethci' the chances are matei'ially lessened from that cause alone — I mean the widening, not lhe letting off the water from otf the land? — Very materially iessoiied. We havoachannel which is now gcnei-aily admilled to be at all '■vents double the capacity of what it was in 18(11. But the raint'ail is liol double, and 1 should imagine that there wuidd be no danger therefore (if floods in the future. 10484. Have you taken notice of the character of the banks at litferent jioints down the j-iver, with a view of consiilering the best ioealit}- for the crossing of the railway, or has that come within youi* iiu'isdiction ? — No; not beyond ha\ing generally looked at it, and generally knowing the points from conversation and other things. 10185. Have you considered the elTect of ice jani'^, and how they would I'lobably affect inundations? — Yes; I have considered the ice (diannels Very carefully, and 1 have failed to see that there has been any flood !i! all after the ice disajipears. The ice goes away in a very ])eculiar 'iiaiiner. The river level is, of couise, no^ i>nly Iovvr Iiiiiadatloiist No |)l-(tl>,lt)lllt.V of Ki'^'Hliiiiimlat'lon.s la lilt lire : not only I lie liver wider lint more land hciiii; ciiltl- vaieil ilicre will 1)0 inure ubsDrp- tioii. The .•ialii.' re;i.sori- lll',' .(pplies to ooiintry on both ^^i'lc.s<)I Kelt Uiver No (l.uiLier from ice jaiiiv. Col. W. O. smith 608 Railway Loca- tion- Bed River Iiiiuitladoiis* The surfivf o of rivor increases while the lee Ueereases. Ice hero so brittle tliat if stopped it ■wouki crniiiblc bi'foro tlie force of the current. Benson fr r be- lieviiit; tliJit (Iraininij would lessen the volume of water. Rixr «>r TiMkc JluililOlllla Liike Nfanlloba six feet higher than a year since. Therlsin^'of r,ake Manitoba would Increase water In Assinebolne. 10^87. The surface of the river widens more than the siirfafo of the ice? — Yes; the ice decreases while the channel increasos, and there :■, ample room for the ice to get out of the channel. 10438. Notwithstanding tha', would not the ice formed where (he river was wide as it went down to the narrower portions, become janinioil and form a f^ort of dam ? — I do not think ice of this cliaracter would jam. I doubt if any ice from Winnipeg ever gets down to the Lower Fort, and certainly not to the mouth ot the river. I think thecharaoior of the ice would prevent a jam of that kind. 10489. Do I understand you to say that the character of the ice wouM be so brittle that the force of the current if it were stopped wnuM crumble it? — Yes ; striking against the bank would crumble it. and th. force of the current would crumble it if there was a jam. 10490. So that it would find an escape on that account ?— Yo.'J. 10*91. Have you considered the effect of artiriciul drainage of limt upon the body of water in the river ? For instance, would the diaini ,;: of wet land, it generally carried out, enable the water to get more rapiiliy into the river than by the jiroccss of nature ? — 1 consider it wonjil. 10 92. Would that have the effect of increasing the probability 'it' inundation or lessening it? — I should think it would have the etfo(.t ni lessening it. 10193. For what reason? — Because the swamps woulix feet higher than it was last year. 10496. Is the rising of Lake Manitoba suppo-ied to be the caiisu of the water coming on the low lands? — 1 am told so. liy the Chairman : — 10497. What eflTect do we understand you to say that the risin;' oi the water of Lake Manitoba will have upon the probable inundalum of the country? — That it would overflow to the southward and ineicvo the volume of water coming down through the Assineboine. 669 Col. W. O. smith rainuLce ot Rnilwny Locn* tioii— 10498. Then notwithstaii'Hnir:dile to MiUo ?— No, or it would be the cau^L' '>! James II. Eowan, sworn and examined : ROWAN. By the Chairman : — siuvrj-s : isti, 10503. Where do you live ? — In Winnipeg. 10504. How long have you live' ^'^^■ lor me and asked me if 1 would assist him. 10509. Whei-e were you then ? — I was in the Department of Public Works at Ottawa. 10510. Will you describe in your own way the manner in which you skot(iie''y to make a survey of wventy-five mlUis. Plan on which p.irties wero to work described. Witness in wliole cliar(j;c' under Fleming. Direct cliargc of parties east of Red River. Arranged for ex- ploratory parties towards tlie Kocky Moiuilains Su|iei'ior and here. Frojii that time forward, after I had got the pailie-; to the points on tlie coast where they wore to otideavour to coinmoiirc to peneti-ate into the interioi', I was engaiied goint^ backwards aini forwai'ds visiting tho jiarties, and the duty then devolved upon uv which r did not contem])hite at ail, of being a kind of gcnei'al commi-- sui'iat oliicer a.s well as engineer. 10511. I understand that you are speaking at present of tho first ."^ea^on ? — Yes, 10512. And wero there thirteen pailies botwoon Lake Superior aini Red Jiiver, the tii'st season, as far as you remember? — I think thii'tcei; parties wei'O all the parties 1 had under my charge — that is belwoeu Mattawa on the Ottawa, and Eed River. I think it was twelve wr thirteen parties altogether. 10513. You lust mentioned between Lake Superior and lied liivoi. but you mean frohi tho Mattawa? — Yes; that is where our surveys commenced. 10514. Were those parties distributed over the north part of Luke Superior ?-They were distributed over distances of from sevenlj'-live to hundred and fifty miles each. What we contemplated was that each party would be able to make a survey of seventy-five miles for one seusou, Some parties wero placed back to back and going from each otijcr ; ami some wei'e facing, working towards each other. The object I m\^hi mention, and then you can see for yourself : one party started at tbo mouth of the Mattawa iiiver, on the Ottawa, to work northwai-d ami westward. Two parties were sent up the Michipicoton River, tliai flows into the eastern end of Lake Superior, one worked eastward aii'l met the party coming from tho east. The other woid-ced westward, A party was sent up the Pic River, with instructions to work both westward and eastward — westward as far as Long Lake, and then to go back and work eastward to meet the party working westwai'd from the Michipicoton River. A party was sent in at Nipigon to work eastward towards Long Lake. Four parties wci-e taken to Tliuncler Bay. Two of them were to go up to Lac des Mi He Lacs, or somewhere in the neighbourhood of it, if I remember rightly, one to work eiist- ward towards Nipigon, the other to work westward, about seventy-five miles. Tlie remaining two parties that were sent to Thunder Bay, were to make their Avay over the Dawson route to tho Lake of the Woods, to start on a point at tho north-eastern end of that Lake. It was then shown on the maps of those days and called Whitefish Lnke, but it is now expunged. One was to work eastward and the other westward. Those were all the parties. 10515. In the westward course of one of the two last-mentioned parties, was there any objective point indicated to you? — No; they were to work forward to Red River. My impression is, it is a long time ago, that there is a map with one of the earlier reports of Mr. Fleming that laj's down the line approximately the way they were to follow. 10516. Do we understand that for that fii-st season that the gi-omul to be covered under your dii'oction ended at Red River ? — In one sense yes; but not in another.. I had the whole charge at that time under Mr. Fleming, and while I took dii-ect charge of all those east of Kod River, I had the general arranging and fitting out of the general expio- 671 ROWAN r 4 cnt of the Surveys : 1871. latoi'V nai'ty tliut was to .start out west towfU'tls the IJooUy Mountains, in ,so far as seeing to its being atartcd off and fitted oul. lO.MT. Hid you undertake to tlii-tct them as to the country wliifh 'licy were tD explore, oi' only as to the lilting out of the jturties? — As to tiie eountiy tliey were to exploiv ; tlie direction tliat liiey were to lake; where they were to start, and how they were to start; tlie eOdr>e that tley were to ]Mir?ue in oider to elfect tiie oljjeet. Tlio pimcss we took was we look certain points on the map, as [ have desc'ribcd, and ui(iuotbrio>t, to fix it by, or tie it to, or state positively that then we have discovered !oand-30, it would have been all lost, and we would not know how to tix it. If an engineer came back and said : " 1 have found a very iiavour- able tract of country," we would otherwise have no means of laying it down on this map, or seeing that it was in the general route, that it was proposed to bo followed by the railway. 10522. What size of party as a rule was necessary to make such an sizo or party, examination >..-( you describe as having been made, for the distance which you gave to each of those parties ? — There was an engineer in charge of the party, a leveller, an assistant leveller, a rod man, two chain men, and 1 think, two picket men, with probably six axe men. That was obout the strength of the engineering staff, and the balance came more probably under the head of transport and supply, cooks and men that carried the provisions. We had to convey all the supplies on men's backs. ROWAN 672 ■'«■... Thlrt,y-flve to forty men. Throo or four men *'oiild make an ■exploration : but ■11 (;onsl(K;riiblo nuinlifcr rc(iuiro(l to move supplies. <.)ne engineer ■could make an exploration. Say 4wo engi- neers ; tlien there should be a party of from ten to fifteen. 10523. IncIiiJing mcjn of all classes, what do you consiJoi- Iho wli i party would bo? — 1 think tho whole partie.s averaged soinewhei. betwcoa thirty and thirty-livo, somolimcs as high as f^i'ty men. 1052-1. If it had beun considered that a bare exploration woulJ Ikiv, answered tho purpose at tii-st, what size party would have been ncce- sary, in each instance, to cover the same lengtli of ground thai l!io>, parties covei-ed ? — That is a difticuit question to answer. Tlu' ni;i;i, difficulty was the transporting of supplies. Two men, 1 suppose, n one ])orson could have made the exploration, and could have ixm ■ through tho country and said what ho saw ; hut he would have had n means of fixing it. 10525. I am asking what would have been the size of a party if oiiiv a bare exploration had been considered necessary? — It is very difli'n to .say. Of course 1 could only say that it could have been cuii.sidL'.. ably snialler. 10526. For instance, you say that the average distance fdi- ead, ; ; these parties was seventy-tive miles? — Yes. 10527. Now if you wishoil to make a bare exi>loration ofsevoiiiv. five miles, how many men do you think yo'i could safely start out o!^ that expedition, including every bi-anch of tlio sei'vicc : commi!<.Hari;it, transport, and everything that you consider necessai-y ?— I am enlin v at a lo.ss to answer that question, for this reason : to got the sup|ilic> to tho place where the party would start from would involve a coi siderable amount of labour and tt-ansport; as, for instance, a man t commence an exploration of any kind from a point seventy or ciirliiv miles north of Lake Superior, in theMichipicoton River, would requiic;i canoe or canoes to transport liis sup|)lies to the point from which in- was ordered to start to make the exploration. The moving ofthu- canoes, and the supplies that thoy would contain, up these rapid slreanb and portages, woukl require a number of men before ho could start :. Ids exploration proper at all. To merely start from that poini and^-i over seveni3'--Qve miles, without making any survey, would noti'cquiri- 1 should think more than three or four men. 10528. It wa,s necessary to ascertain tho number of the whole loiv. required to make such a survey as you did make, with all tln>' difficulties that you now speak ot'?— Yes. 10529. But that did not make it iinpossiblo to arrive at some rui,- elusion ? — No. 10530. Is it not possible to form some conclusion, whether tho nunilir of the men employed on the engineering service should be incro;i>pl or diminished? — Yes; that I can answer you at once. 10531. How many men would it requiie to make an exjiloi-aliui; only, who would be engaged in the engineering jwrtion of the work.' — One man to make the exploration. 10532. How many men would be required to transport and cany al! the supjilics and all the necessaries for one man ? — They would ii:ivo to carry for themselves also. 10533. Including that and including every possible contingency just as you have included it when you calculated on six or eight engineers?— I take it, assuming the point I have made, to have started two men, because you could not get one man to go over the wood;! by 673 ROWAN risiJei' the wIimi,. igod somewhere )i'iy men. ition woiiM li;iv,. hiivo been iijce- round that llio.v wei'. The m;i;i; sn, I suppose, II :'.oukl luivo i,")iM. ould hiivc liad v. )f a party if oiny t is vcMy ditlieiiii vo been coiisiili'.. stance t'oi- ear I ", •ation offtovoiiiy. afolv Ktart out mi c;e : ('ommi?^;sai'i:i!, •?— I am entiniy 3 get llio sju|»])lii- d involve a on:- nstance, a man i- seventy or oii^liiy r, would requii'iii nt from wiiicii in' moving oftlin- lese rapid stroan- he could start n;. that poinl ainLvi would not rri^ui V the whole loiv..' with all till.'''' ive at some loi:' lethcr the niiniln'i »uUl bo incroibv" :e an exploratiui. on of the woi'k' ort and carry al! ?hey would hiive F. ble contingency, _ on six or eight le, to have started 7QV the woods by Survey* t I871« himself. To t;tke two men and transjiort all the supplies neco.'-siify, I think it would require a party of ton or fifteen men. 10534. Then is it your opinion now that if a bare exploration liad been considered necessary, and nothing more than that, the party to effect that, including t'-ansport and all other branches of the service, would be composed of about ton or fifteen men ? — Yes ; the party vvuuld consist of about fifteen men, 10535. How many of an engineering staff are required to make the Anenginperintf i^ui'voy as it was made.'' — About eight. quired for an -.^ . rni IT 1 J ■ , .,1 , , « . 1 . • instrumenti lOo.^O. Then do I understand yon to say that a party of eight engin- survey, eers would require . I whole party of about thirty to do all that was necessiiry, aii'i that a party of two would require from ten to fifteen of a whole party ? —Yes ; only if yon would add to that when the parly oiiine Lack, there would be nothing to show for what they hud dono. 10537. Will you explain to mo why a party of two enginetirs would require so large a party us titteon, when eight ongineeis could be sup- plied by a party of thirty ?— Becatiso the eight engineers helped to sujiply themselves. They form part of tiie force that are utilized in the trans- port. 10538. Would not tho tw(», if they \vere:il()no, form jiart of the force in supplying themselves? — They would ; but not to the same extent. 10539. W()uld they not in a proportionate extent?— No. 11)540. Why not? — Because you must have a canoe to stai-t th mi f anoe with a into the country of a certain size, and that requires a certain number monrequi^ea uo of men to manage it, niatterliow small ° the surveyint; 10541. What is the size of a canoe party? — Seven men. party 10542. So that no matter how small a party it would re<|airo seven canoe men ? — Yes; that is my judgment. You ntust have a canue. of that size thai it would take seven men to take It through, with the supplies. 10543. The seven canoe men would only be required on that pcMtion of tho line whore there was water? — Exactly ; to take in supplies. 10544. From the point at which they commenced their exploration, would the canoe men be re(iuired, or could their services after that be dispensed with? — No; they would lie required still. 10j45. For what purpo.se? — Crossing the lakes thai they would meet on the way, unless you lost a great deal of time in making your way around them. 10546. If there were eight men employed in the survey or en- with an engi- gine(M'ing, hoV many canoes would be required ? — They generally had "igiu'they^iuu/ two small canoes al«ng with the engineering party, and then they had two small cunoos a number, which varied, bringing in and along their supplies: three bHng^,^gsiipp"es. to five canoes, I suppose. 10547. And how many men would be required for each of these oanoes for the larger party? — From tive to .^evon men. 10548. For each canoe ? — Y'^es. 10549. And how many canoes?— I think there would be about three or four canoes. 43 ROWAN 674 'Survey* : IbVla A li.inoo not, abso- lutely nci essary for a bare explor- ation. "What wltnens would do If plan- Ill ns; a bare ex- ploration parly. Two canoo loads ; fourtoen orflftuen men and himself. Would not under- take 8uch a survey with a smaller force. When an explor- ation Is made the direction can be recorded by the oompasH and dis- tance can be paced for. But this could not be done in the <;ountrysurveyed. 10550. Thi'ce altogether? — Three or four large canoes. Theenginoer and his asHistants, his axe men, and leveller, and tranNit man eoiiKI wield a paddle, and they would help to pa^ldle the canoe. 10651. Of course as far as the muscle force is concerned the two men would contribute their share just as well as the eight men in tliu lui'gor party ? — Yes. 10552. But if it is a necessity in every case to have seven tiu'ii to mtifiage one canoe, then I can understand that that would iuiil lo the small jiarty a larger force in proportion ihun would be re(jiiirt(i to be added to the large party ? — Yes; that is just it. 1055:-{. Is it a necessity to have a canoe to cross waters upon hare explorations ? In your opinion is it a sine qua wai ! —it is not a mt qua uon, but it would greatly expedite matters. 10534. Then besides the seven canoe men, who would be necessary in every party to examine the country, what other men would be rccpiiied so as to make up the balance of the tiftoen ? — 1 do not tliink that one set of seven men would cai-ry in enough supplies. You could not earn- in supplies enough for the men who were taking in the supplies, and the party who were going to start to make the exploi-ation, and go bat'k agiiin with one set of men. You would have to have two canoeH and establish a dejtot. 10555. 1 am endeavouring to get youi- mode of calculation as to wlmt is necessary to supply a party tor the smaller exploration ? — Would it not be simpler if: were to describe what I would do under those oir- ciimstances, and then you could see ? 1055f>. Will you say what you would consider it necessary to do if you wei'e planning a bare exploration at the smallest possible expeiist', so as to make it efficient, and through the countiy over which tliDsc examinations took place? — I would go to a point of the coast where I could penetrate to tlie interior, by steamer, taking with me one assist- ant besides myself, and two canoes U) carry our provisions, proliably a small canoe beside.-* — what is called a two-fathom canoe. I would then take with me these canoes, and men and j)i"ovisions, up the sti-eum to the point from where I was lo start my exploration. 105' t. When you say these men an'l pi'ovi.^ions, 1 do not know iiow many you mean ? — Two canoe loads : fourteen or fifteen men Jind myself. Seven men are considered a crew fui- a three or four-fathom canoe. 10558. Do you think that a bare exploration over this countiy could not be made except in the way you have described, and with a force as large as you describe ? — I do not know ; possibly it could, but I would not undertake to do it. 10559. When a bare exploration is made, is there any means of recording the direction, by the compass fi)r instance, and the extent of the country examined, so as to make it intelligible to another person? — Certainly, you could with the compass take your direction you travel in, and you could pace for distances. In any ordinary country that could be done, and you could get a very fairly approximated idea of what you had done. In the country we are speaking of you could not take a bearing of where you were going for six feet, for it is so densely covered with timber and brush in many places that you could hardly penetrate through them. It would be a perpetual winding in and out <)75 ROWAN Theenj^inoev it man could Vii seven men , would iulil U) Id bo i-ofiiiiivil iitioii as to \vli:it ion ?— Would it mder those tii- esHary to do it (OSHible expense, or which tliDso coast where 1 1 me one assist- isions, prohably jaiioc. I would iH, up the sti-eum > not know liow fteen men and le (»r four-ttithom liH country could Id with a tbi'ce lit could, but I any meaus of Ld the extent of Lnother person ? Iction you travel Vy country that )xi mated idea of L)f you could not Ir it is so densely |ou could hardly tiding in and out Niirveyii : INTt. among treoH. Wo had to chop out a lino before we could get through at all. 10560. Then was it on account of the character of that particular country that it m.'uio it expedient to have a more elaborate Hurvey than a bare exploration? — I think so. 10561. If the country had been of a different characfnr — prairie, for ovor pr.urio instance, or principally prairie — would a bare exploration have been l",Vhuu!^\rui'v('y* sufficient?—! think it would. I think you could have done voiy well wouui imv.Mjono indeed with a preliminary exploration over this prairie country. very we . 10562. Do you know whether it sometimes happened, in making the oxaminatiou such as was made, that obstacles would be reached which were insurmountable — tor instance, a lake — ho that it would be afterwards impossible to locate on the lino of examination ? — Yos. 10563. You think from the nature of the country that the existence obstae/«siu'h as'a of that obstacle could not have been ascertained etUciontly by a bare large lake and exiiloration? — The extent of the obstacle or how it could be overcome ov\Tcoine?"(mi(l lould not have been ascertained. ertV*"aTiir."''"' cxplorntlon. 1056-4. But the existence of such an obstacle ? — You could not have placed it with siiiflcient a(!curacy, but you could have stated generally that tliei'o was an immense lake. If a man came to a lake like Nipigon, for instance, on the e.xploi-ation, you could say that a considerable distance north of Luke Superior there was an immense lake that would lender it necessary to go soventy-(ive miles further before you couli. tliat lirnt season ? — Any oflhein that did cease, (teasel about, tho otnl of'Oclobei-; most of thorn continued on through tho winter. 10574. Wore particuhii-H concerning the field work sent by tho oni;i- neers in charge of the different parties to tho head oflice at Ottawa so as to let the otlice work i)o done; or, if not, how woukl the ollico wmk bo(U)no? — Tho ollice woi'k was done when tho party eomplolel hi work and came in. WhcMi he performed Ids seventy-five miles ho camo home with his i)arfy and plotted his work. 10575. Might that bo in tho summer? — Tho following year most di them got home. 10576. About what time in the following year ? — I think about Maitli or February. Circumstances varied very much ; some of thomgot iiome earlier than others. 10577. Were you still travelling from point to point during tho winter, after tho first season,! mean the winter of 1871-72?— The winter of 1871-72 I was frozen in on the Lake ot tho Woods on mv way tr}:ing to get through here. I was detained thoro for some days, and reached hero about the latter end of October or beginning oi Novombor, having been frozen in on an island in the lake. 10578. Did you pass that winter in Winnipeg? — I remained in Win nipeg until about tlie middle of Docombor. 10579. And then where did you proceed ? — Then I went to Ottawa, lO.iSO- IIow long do you think you remained there? — 1 remaineil there until tho following spring. 10581. Still occupied in engineering for the Pacific Railway ?— Ye>: at office work, compiling tho information that came in, getting it iiit" shape and working out tho details of it. 10582. Can you say what was the general result of tho work of that year — tho first season — did it establish any important facts or data fori future operations? — I could not say without referring to tho report The report, I think, shows all tho results that were arrived at. 1058.:J. Did you make a written report embodying the iriformati'Hi i ob'.ained as to the result of those operations? — Yes. 10584. Do you remembor whether the explorations of that year! resulted in a lino being laid down as tho ono which would probably bo finally located noi'thofLake Superior? — No; I think not. 1 think that tho result, if I remember right — 1 am speaking entirely nowfi'onij recollection — was that wo came to the conclusion that a line woukl mt be practicable from Pic llivor to Nipigon, south of Long Lake, and that from the Pic River, eastward from the Mi{diipicoton Kiver, wej would have to t.y in some other direction for a line. That is inyf recollection of what was discovered tho first year. Also that a lnwj from Mattawa to tho head waters of tho Monti-eal River was veryl unfavourable, and that it would be desirable to endeavour to tindsonie| other line through that section of country. «PI«9I 677 ROWAN ing yoiir most nt 105S5. Have you any reusofi ri.>\v to tliiitk that tlio i-oHilt of ffiosc- ulioraliotiM, as reported \>y you, was not coiTecl ? Afo you still of tlio .anic opinion as that wliieh you expi-ossod in your roport ? — As \v(3ll ;in I remotnhcr, 1 am. I think so; 1 do not know that I know (jf any- thing lliat would lead me to ehan;^o it. 10r)St!. Then, in 1"72, what operations were undertaken undei- your ilirections ? — In 1871i we tried {'or a new lino from Mattawa via Luke Nipissin;^ t') the Valley of the .Slur/j;eou KivtU', erossing the ALoose IJiver somewhat further north tiian oui- line of 187 i, and endeavouring^ to reach the head of Lon_i^ I^ako. We also started in ut Xipigon with a view to tlioroui^hly explorini; the country lying hotwocn Ked I'iver and Ni")igoii, uiid more partieularly in tlio section of country lyin|:;all ai'ounil Fiako Xipigon for fifty miles. 10557. Wore the examinations and surveys of the same character as those of the year preceding ?— Yes. 10588. And about the same sized parties ? — Yes ; just ahout. 10581). Was there any particulai- change made in the rnaiuigoment of the affairs of the survey [)artios that year? — 1 think not. 1051)0. Were the ox))lorations wont of Red Hi ver under your direction ? —No; not under my direction. 105'.>1. Did you make a written report of the work of that year? — I ttiink so. 10.jD2. Have you any rea.son to change your opinion now as to your jiKlgmont stated in that report?— I think not. 10593. Do you remember at what time the field work ceased that yciir, or did it cease ? — 1 think for the most part of that year it termi- nated with the close of navigation on Lake Superior. 105!>-4. Did the engineers proceed to Otiavva, or were they discharged as a rule ? — No ; thoy proceeded to Ottawa and plotted their work. 10595. Did you remain out during that winter of 1872-73, or did you go tu Ottawa again ? — 1 went to Ottawa. 1059(1. What oi)orations were undertaken for 1873, under your Jirections ? — It would appear as if, during that year, we had been caiTying on further explorations with a view to getting further know- ledge of the country lying between Red River and liake Nipissiiig, generally all through, but more particularly the country lying between Ked River and Lake Superior. Miirveyn— iN7l. 10597. Was there the same number of parties employed, or :,bou( ilie same number?— No ; there were eight parties employed. 10598. So that in 1873 the survey force in this section of the country Mas considerably reduced ? — Yes ; very considerably reduced. 10599. Were the examinations of that year confined to prelimitiary surveys, and not final locations ? — No; not final locations. 10600. Nor trial locations ?— No ; portions of them wore merely exploratory surveys with the insti'ument referred to by Mr. iveefcr: a Kochon micrometer made by Mr. William Austin. Nt't'Ollll Mt'llHON t A new Ihii' tried fur irorn Miittnwu ri(i NIplssliiK lo Viilley oiHtiir- u'eoii HIscr. Attrrnpt to tlioriiiiuhly i'\- plori' cminlry hctwfcn Nipixoii iiiid Ucil Klvor. SiirvovN or this yttar Hkc tliosc of Idst— liistrniiiciit- til. Kxniorntlon west of Hvd nlver nob undor wIIucms's direction Reported on work of J oar IKTJ; opinions tilt! siitne to day us tlioKC! In thivt roport. En«lnecrs pro- o.ood(!d to Ottawa and plotted tlieir work. Witness also was lit Ottawa diiriin; winter of I.S72-7:i. 'I'll I I'd NeiiMoit : 1873. During 187;! fiirllier explora- tions In eonntry lyliiK between Ued 111 ver and Nlplssln;?. <)nlyelf;htparlles asconi)>ared witli thirteen diirlusf the two previous years. Examinations of 187,! also preli- minary surveys. Portions purely (exploratory wltli a Kochou micro- meter. ROWAN 678 ■ur»ey«— Third N«»iton t .*•■■)» Uadt* report on work of IHT.i ; no reiiNon to <'hiinK<' optnloiiN \hv.n fornieil ; luloptfvl ItiD' not tliHt imI- VOa. Hay as the terminus was decided upon? — Yes; I think so. It rniist t«Mn?nii8dec'id* '''^^^ ^^^^ '" ^^® spring of 1874, I think. Mr. Mackon/Zic was the ed spring on874. Minister of Public Works at the time it was decided. 10614. Do you remember whether — it was about that time that the general course of tho railway across Red Eiver in the direction westerly and north of Jiake Manitoba was settled — there had been at one time an intention of running the road south of Lake Manitoba? — Yes; that was the line that Mr. Fleming laid down in his first map as tho general line the railway should follow, and on that line the first exploration was made, I think, by Mr. Frank Moberly. t)79 ROWAN ,llO I'OSIlll (ll till ? — Yos ; I lliiuk 10»!15. My ((iiostion is mow to iiHcortHin if you knowuboiil what timo llie cliiiiigo WHS adoptt'ii, fixing liio roiito l)y tlio Narrows <»»' Luko Ma- iiiloba? — I thiiilc it was in lH7ft— tho npring ot 1875 — that I was iiistraclod to liavo tlie Hiirvoy made that way, lOdlt.'. Then during IH74 what oporatioiiH wore carried on under voui' (lirc'tion ? — In ISTl, J thiidv, wc* wore engaged in re-nurveying wliai is now contract 15— nuiking u re-«urvoy ot the country hotwoon IJut INntago and Ited liivei'. I(itll7. Woul(i that he the principal portion of tlie work of that weuson iiiKicr your direction ? — I thiid< it was. KM)]-. Do you roinomlier ahout how many parties were t'lignged on it?-d think there was only one party. I0t)l9. Had you only control ol one party in the wcason ot 1H74? — We wore miking surveys to the west on the northern line. It must liiivo bien in that year, too, 1 got oders to makeasuivoy nortli of Lake Muiiitobii. l(l()20. So that that route must have been adopted also in 1874? — Vt'> , 1 think 8o. My duties 1 see now from the Blue Hook werecontined piiin ipiilly to this f untry up here. I had nothing to do with the loiii uy east of Lake Superior at all. ItMiiil. Where had you your headquart'jrs? — At Winnipeg. lUt>22. Had you supervision of the operationr* west of Kod River ? — Vis; my district at that lime w.is not the same as I answei'ed you in uiic of the firrtt questions you asked mo. 1(MJ.'3. Then tor 1874, what was the extent of your disti-ict ? — My district for 1874 was from Rat Portage westward to Fort Polly, includ- iiij< the Pembiiui Branch. 10t)24. Between Rat l\)rtag(* and Lake Superior who had the control of the operations? — Mi-. Hazlewood. It)ti25. Were his duties over the sociion (similar to yours for the sfc- tioii wehtward ? — Yes; we occupied exactly similar positions — disti ,ct I'ligineerH. ltKi2tJ, During that year did ycu proceed to make surveys with a view to construction —] mean, had you determined on the location of the lino neai' enough to Itegin to prepare for construction? — Yes; I think we began then to make the actual location surveys at the Eat Portage end. 10627. Who was the engineer in charge at the Rat Portage end ? — Mr. Carre. 10628. That part of the line is generally spoken of as section 15, is it not ?— Yes. 1062!). And between that section and Red River is knowi» :is section 14?— Yes. It was during that year fdso I might say that the explora- tion was made from Red River ejistward to Rat Portage, north of the present line. 10630. Who made that survey? — Mr. Brunei made a portion of it — f< track survey — and a portion of it was done under Mr. Carre's supervi- sion. (toil- i.iiif iioHii i*r I.Mkr Mniil- loltH HprlKK "f H:.> Iii- tttiilloii to run Hoiiili or l.^ikc cIiiiiikimI. Nurv«-in f'oiirlli !(<-i»«u. WIlncNM's district for IM74 f'om Rut l'ort»g«i to Fori Folly and the Peiiiblnii Kruiich, BeKan to nuikc actual locutltM) Gurvoys at Rat Porta(?<' end. Exploration made from Red River to Rat Port- age north of present line. '..^* !•'.,/ ^ ROWAN 680 ■nrveya— Fourtli Seuaoii 1H1I4. Track .survey. Reason wliy north Hue not Hilopted- had crosfilnc Wliml- pi's; «\ivcr. A Kc'cond survey of section 15 by Carre. K8ilwny I■ file t Ion — p.-iir.«. itritnch. ( .>iiti'nct Ko 5. Located under »iii|iervislon of w'ituesH. Ground so level not necessary to cross-section. ■,s First contract on Pembina Hranch eiiiliraced troni nine miles south of W'InulpeK to first township 10()I{1. TliJit was not over llio line sitiro ailoptcd? — Xo ; one iiorili of it. 106;52. What do you mean by a traclf survey ?— A track survey was, he went through with clogs and snow-shoes, and paced the distance and took bearings as you spoke of with the compass. lOGol!. Something in the natiwe of an exploration ? — Yes. 10H3i. Not an instrumental survey? — Xo. The i-eason of it was Mr, IliizUnvood, Disti'ict Kngincer on the Thunder Bay District, repoi-led gie;it ditticulty in getting through by JIat Portiigo on the lino na at present adopted. lOGo'*. W'ls this nortl ly line undertaken with a view to cscapi' {{;.t I'ortage ? — With a view to trying to escape going down to Rai Portage from the east ; but the countiT to the west of the Wiiiuipoi: liiversofar noi'th as where he indicated it; would have to be crossed that is the Winnipeg River — was so very unfavourable as to i-ender it im- possible to utilize that route for the railway. 10(536. Was there another survey during 1874 of the line ot scotinn 15, about where it is at pi-esent constructed ? — Yes. 10fi37. W^ho made that survey? — That was made by Mr. Carre. Our previous line that had been surveyed in 1871 was burned when our office was burned. The record was destroyed. 106. i8. Y'^ou mean the plan of it ? — The plan was burned when our office was burned out in that year ; also the construction of the Pembina Branch was deemed advisable. 10639. Was the location of the Pembina Hranch made under your supervision ? — Yes. 10640. By what engineer ? — I went over the ground myself fir^i and made a preliminary examination, and then an actual location wa> made by Mi-. Brunei. I think he was the engineer in chaige. 10641. W^as it cross-sectioned ? — No. 10642. Was the character of the ground so level that it did nut require cross-sectioning to get at the actual quantities ? — Yes; and even the longitudinal section was so level that there are but very sli^dit variations between one point and another. 10643. Were data sufficiently ascertained to form a fair estimate ot the quantities so as to invite tende's upon some reliable information ' •I really could not answer that question at this moment. 1 will ,nve you an answer to it wiien 1 refer back to the jiapers. 10644. D>) yc" remember, as a matter of fact, whether the exetuted quantities exceeded laigely the estimated (piantities ? — I do not ; but 1 remember that the contractor complained that the executed quantities as returned are very much smaller than what he had actually pertbrmed. 10645. Is there any existing dispule on that subject between tin' coi. tractor and the Govei-nmeni? — lam not aware of any. I ilo "'" know whether he was settled with or not. 1 was under the impre!^(*i'"i that he had been finally settled with. 10646. Did the first contract embrace the whole line from St. nonite to the boundary line of the Privince? ■ No; it tiid not. The fit st contract embraced from a point about nine miles south of Winnipeg, to 'dmiit 681 ROWAN ? — No ; one norlh the lifrtt towui^hip north of tlio boundary line. Speak'ng from memory I think iic wu^ allowed to do the balance at the bume price. 10(^47. Did he do the balance or did not some person follow him and finish it?— No; i think he did the work. Thei-e was a .sub-^etiiieiit con- tract entered into with Upper & C')., fur the nine miles next to St. Boiiiliice. 10648. Dill the Up|)er contract include the ballasting at> well as tinisbing at iho north end oi' the Pembina Branch ?— No; Mr. VVhite- hend consti-ucted the north end to Selkirk. The Upper contract was to finish the gi'ading from one mile south of St. Boniface Station to where contract 5 terminated, about nine miles south of St. Bonibi e, ami to track-la}', ballast, put in bridges and culverts on the portiot; >vhich had lieen graded under contract 5. Bailway I tioit Hnil <'oii> Htriirtlon - l*eiitb. llraiM'li. north of boun- dary Hue. Upper & Co. flld sradnig nine miles south of St. Boniface Station. f the lino t)t sectiuii \ made under ymir evel that it did n"t antities ?— Yew; anJ re are but very sli;,4it WiNNiPE(}, Wednesda}', 6th October, 1880. WiLLtAM F. LuxTON, sworn and examined: LUXTON. C'UMtrn*'! .\<>. 15. llelpliiK .\c\vit- I»R|>frK. By the Chairman: — 10049. You have been summoned to appear before the Commisaiouers because we were informed that you wish to give evidence, concerning some matter which you thought alfecvcd you ; is that coriect? — Yes. 10650. What is the subject? — It is the matter of Mr. Whitehead's} Complains of t'vi(^ence. On the 14th, Mr. Whitehead is reported as having said, ^l!^ni^foahe^tu^ among other things : Heptember, rr "^ " containing Ineor- " I hIso helped the newspaper here When I Hpst cnme I knew the A'/rc I'ress was rect statements T* rkitiff hard against me, and I was bou' d to biive the help of another paper, 90 I vvf nnipes Vi-pe a- ^^is'f d T'lttle in starting the Tunes. We iiad no other paper here at tlie time l)iit pre.s.i. till' Fi'ie Prenn, and they used to g"l things in the paper about a man lieiiig Itilled on si; ;tioii 15, and then there w< uld be an account of another melaiK hi.ily neeident on section 15, and the paper used lo contain sarca-stis remarks, so I thi)ughi I would gel ai:()ther paper here to advance my own interests. It was not on aceouii! of Jais intiu- *ijce with the Government that 1 assisted Tuttle, the proprietor of ihe paper. It was not promised that he would be of any assistance to me in the Dej>artment8. In com- pensation for helping his paper I was not led lo expect anything of the kind." Mr. Whitehead is repoi'ted as having given that evidence on the l4th September, and tlie day before yesterday he was leported, when the mutter was more closely ent[uired into, atid he then "* referred to the same thing: '-We had only one paper here at tliat time, and, for the reasons I gave before, I gave assistiince," tliereliy re iiffliming what he hud alieady affirmed. Now I !i|)pear before the Commissiun lo contradict Mr. Whitehead in this respect, lie .says : "1 knew that the Free Presa was working hard against me," and that is the reason that he assisted this other paper. Now I have the tiles of the paper hero, from the time that Mr. Whitehead took the contrtict — that is, contract 15— U]( until after the time of the starting of the Times, and since Mi. Whitehead gave that evidence 1 have examined the Hies very closely, to see if there was any justiHcatioti whatever for his evidence. I wjis persua•. JI«Iplii({ Xctvit- mav state in evidence wo have spoken very !>ievorely of Mr. White- J'^p*"*"* ncatl S WOI k. severely of liim ^11 • I • ■ n r 1 o anil bis work. 10 58. Uave yon hvtely periiHed thoae references, or most of them r — J perused raostoftliem yesterday. 10059. Do you find tliem in substance to be of the same lone as the ariicio you have alluded to?— Where we ventured an oi)inion the O])inion has always been in accord, but otherwise we simply stated a fact as a matter of news only. We mentioned the accident just the KUiio way we would mention that ho had brought in a new locomotive. Whenever we ventured an opinion, up to the end of March — until after the Thnes was started — it was always of a complimentary nature to Mr. Whitehead and his work. 10600. Besides what you say in these articles do you remember well the spirit in which the remarks were made at that time, because of the pajior being under your control ? — As far as 1 know, the remarks were always made sincerely; they were not intended to be sarcastic nor wore they intended to bo ironical. 10«)61. Do you consider that you have a good memory of the spirit in wliich you dictated those articles ? — Yes. 106(i2. Then from your memory now of the spirit, and from your having perused the articles latel}', what is your opinion of the reason which he has given in evidence for the assistance he ofl'cred Tattle? — My opinion is that it was simply the easiest way he could get out of it. 106f)3. Do you consider that it was truthfully describing his motive for affording assistance to the Times ' — No ; 1 do not think that it was truthful. 1()6(j4. V>o you consider then, knowing what you know about it, you have reason to believe that he mis-stateii liis motives ? — Oertainlj' ; I may say, at a certain time there was a strike on the road, and wo men- tionod simply that there was a strike, and it was stated that the reason •was. low wages and bad board. That was simply stated as a matter of fact ; but the day following we stated that the men had resumed work. 1 mentioned that because it might be construed into something else fruiii what I slated. We spoke of the strike, and that is the only thing that might seem hostile during the whole time ; we did not give it as a hostile opinion, but gave it simply as a fact. lo6(!5. Did you publish a rumour that the men had left because of bail hoard and low pay ? — Yes. 10fiG6. Was it ti ue ? — It was true in point of fact. 10667. Do you mean that it was found to be true afterwards? — Yos. 10668. I produce the article about the strike : " Intelligence was received this morning that considerable dissatisfaction has pre- Artlr-li' on strike, vailed on contrnct 15, Canadian Pacific Railway, during the past week or so, owinjt to ihe reduction of wages having been made, and to the discontent which whs increased owing to the inferior quality of the food supplied, culminating in the strike on Fridaj. It appears that on the 15th instant, the reduced rate of wages came into operation, 26 cts. being struck oflFthe pay i,f each man. Those formerly getting $2 a day b"ing mid $1.76, and those who used to get %\ 75 being paid $1.50. The men, it i3 stated, were not so much dissatislied with the reduction of pay as with the inferior quality of food which it is alleged was supplied them, and for which they were com- pelled to pay $4 50 per week. The complaints were, that the pork was at times niu9ty, and the supply of grub inadequate. Failing to secure better terms, the strike commenced at both ends, and quickly spread over the whole contract, until the whole A strike on roiul ; the fart stilted in Free Prem with motive of It - l(j\v wages. Tills the only thing wlilch could seem hostile during ilie whole time, up to Mtircli, 1H79. Published il ruiriouf that inoa had left heeausc of bad hojird and low pay, which was tound to be true In point of fact. mm^^ "■•51 1 LUXTON 684 -i^^y ^y . '■ Is • ''y 'Contract Xo. 15. |»U|M-I-M. Thifo ilays after publisliin^ above published the faor that llio strike was over. The article about strike appeared before White- head's arrange- wieut wltliTuttle. The publication of riirnours and Journalistic etiilcfi. f'lirce of 1,500 men were implicated. No violence was offered. There was only an entire cessation of labour. Siiice writing the above, news Iws been received that th» men on the eastern end resumed work to-day, b\it on what conditions have not beer. obtained, The otlier strikers, it is said, were also expected to return to work." 106()0. What (lute irt that ?— This appears in November 2:{r(l, 18ts, Three days following that, we f-aid : " All (he strikei-rt on contract 15, Canadian PaciHc Kailway, have ^owq back at the reduced rjuo of wages," that is on the 2(Ith November of the same ycur. Those two are the only two that can be by any possible means consti'ued as hostile, and J deny that they are hostile or that they were written in a hostile spirit at all. We simply relalod the fact and ventured no opinion, and just to show how we deult with Mr. Whitehead. The dissatisfaction was becoming uioio general about this time, but I did not know it at the lime. I, myself, had frequently had the men about this time coming to remonstrate with me for not saying something about the way in which Mr. White. head was ill-treating his men. I rcmembei" going down to Mr. Norton, Mr. Whitehead's book-keeper, to see about it, and the men were very much annoyed at my not saying something about it. However, I did not get much satisfaction out of Mr. Whitehead; though I believe he had a good deal of trouble with his men. I stated that on fJih March, I lepublished a paragraph from the Globe, favourable to .\h'. Whitehead. 10670. That article about the strike appeared in November, 1878?— Yes. ]()t>7l. Was that before his arrangement with Tuttle, as you uiulor- standit? — Before; and it was before the lengthy article that I have read you, as the strike article appeared on the 23rd November, and i lie long eulogy appeared on the l!>th December, which shows I may submit, that there was no bad feeling in the matter, otherwise wo should not have published these remarks tifterwards, 1067-. In that article about the strike you made use of the words "it appears," — did you tnean the public to understand that it hud aj'pearod there was some authentic information ? — I may state llmt when we use that expi'cssion we use it in such a way that we do not asbuiuj the whole responsibility of saying it. We use the words "it appears " or " it is alleged." lUb7.'>. When you say "it appears" does it not mean ''it is evident?' — It is a qualified way of saying it. 10674. When you make use of those words, do >ou not wish the public to believe that you think it is true ?— Yes; we incline to believe that it is true. 10675. Do you not wish the public to understand that you have reason to believe that it is true? — Yes; without absolutely saying it is tiiie. 10G76. J?ut your object U to create that impression upon the pulilic mind ? — Yes; but still in a qualified sense. 10G77 If you wished to create that impression on the public mind why do you avoid the responsibility of it ? — We say it in the qualified way, so that if anything turns up we can say we wore misinformed. 10678. Then do you wish to create an impression on the public mind as to the fact without first ^aiisfying yourself whether it is true or not? — 1 ii: -y say this: a newspaper has to deal with things occasionally of 685 LUXTON ,'ember, 1878?- ot mean '* if is which Uio })Ul»lishor.s ui'o not in a position to puss upon the truthfulness or oUicrwi.se at tlio time. Tlioy must say something about it, and, on occasi.MiH of that kind, wc tiy a;i(i i-elicvo oui-selves of as mucli i'esj)i)ii- siliility a;' possible, yet we mast give f'uilher currency to the report. 1u(j7'>. Do you think it is tlio duty of a public journalist to impress the mind as to the existence of i'acls while the editor hims'df is not so impressed ? — I certaitdy say not; but at the same time we endeavour to wiite in such a way as not to leave the opinion absolute. However, I may say that it turned out to bo absolutely true. 10G80. This is not ihe question to which I am at present directing iittention. Among other things, I am trying to ascertain how that might operate upon Mr. Whitehead's mind, not upon your mind ? — I can only ariswei- that in the way I have answei-ed. 10081. Is it your practice, and do you think it to be correct, to cir- culate a rumour of that kind, accompanied by the words " it appears " without first satisfying yourself as to the truthfulness of it ? — No ; we iiie very careful not to do it. Our practice is not to do so. We were just assure as we could possibly bo without being absolutely sure that it was true, and that is the reason we qualified at all. 10682. Can you tell me what you mean by being as far as possible sure without being absolutely sure ? Do you think that foi* such a purpose there is realy any comparative to the word sure ? — There is ; foi- instance, if T meet a number of persons that I do not know, and they tell me substantially the same thing, that would make mo believe it to be true; but J would not take the responsibility. I would really consider it .'-ure without taking the responsibility of it by being absolutely sure. Supposing then I met a number of persons that I was well acquainted with, and knew them to be credible people, if they told mo the same tiling 1 would then be absolutely sure. 10683. Do you think that the journalist is justified in stating that a fact appears to exist because he has heaid it from several people whom he docs not know, and without investigating it further? — Certainly; a journaiist is justifiable by ]jroj)erly qualifying it. I made use of the words " it appears." I think that qualifies it enough. 10684. Do you think it qualifies it so as to make a doubtful impres- sion upon the minds of the people, or only qualifies it to relieve the journalist of the responsibility? — 1 say this : that, of course, I can fully speak as a journalist and give my opinion, that 1 believe anj^thing acknowledged in such language as that is does leave a doubt on the public mind whether it is so or not — just a slight doubt. 10685. The reason I am asking you about your opinion on this mntter is because you have founded your evidence to some extent on the spirit in which yon have written articles, and therefore the spirit in which you seemed to do such things may have some bearing upon the question as far as Whitehead is concerned ? — I may say that this article regarding the strike was written as qualifiedly as it possibly could be in order not to create a sensation against Mr. Whitehead, because this was not by any means the first we had heard of it, and we had to put it off and put it off as long as we could ; because 1 say this: my sympathy was with Mr. Whitehead, 10686. You say that yon think that article which contained the words " it appears " was written as qualifiedly as it could bo? — As it < 'oiitract \o. 15. Ilt'l|»iiii; XeivH- liapcrs — An eilitoi' wlieii not certain writes In such a way as to make an Im- pression short of absolute. A journaUHt pro- perly gives cur- rency to a rumour without investi- gation if he pre- fixes tlie account with"lt appears." LUXTON 686 ^1 CniitrNct no. 15. Il<'l|iiiiK >rWM« pniierM. Prior to till' Wliltahead- I'ut- tlc arrangment all notices of con- tract 15 which rppeared In free J're.ix W4Te fav- Durahle. Object with Which wltnenN fjlves hie eviilence. Did not know until Informed hy the Secretary that the (Jom- nilssioners were dcslrousof hcar- Ins all who could help them in their investigation. SutTKcsts names • of persons to be exunilnod. could under the circumstances. There are lOt many journalists Ijui wliat would have stated it absolutely if they had had the same infor- mation as 1 had. 10687. I am not suggesting that your views are incorrect, but ills necessary to understand your views upon this subject f?o as to correctly interpret the spirit in which you say the articles were written. No.v, referring again to the general tone of all the editorial remarks, which you say you have ])orused, are you of the opinion that they woio generally found entirely in favour of Mr. Whitehead and his conduct — 1 mean before the Tuttle arrangement? — 1 say absolutely that they woio. 1068^. Then do you wish the Commissioners to understand that you believe thei-o must have bjen some other motive for Mr. Whitehead giving the assistance which he did, than any motive which he has des- cribed ? — I, do ; that is my opinion. 10689. Is it with that object that you wish to give 3'our evidence to- day? — 1 had two objects: the one was to exculpate myself, and tlion also T thought it was right that it should not be allowed to pass u.,.;i!il- Icnged. 10690. Do you know of any other persons who would be able to give us any information upon the subject of Mr. AVhitehead's motive besides the witness whom we have examined? -1 do not know; perhaps Mr. George Brown, o< the Ontario Bank, might. I do not know. 10691. Is there any other person ? —Mr. Tuttle ought to bo examined himself; he has already been subpoenaed. Mr. McQueen ought to know something about it, ho was Mr. Tuitle's book-keeper, and ne ought to know something about it; but, of course, I do not know that he did, he was merely tho book-keeper in the office. 10692. Are you aware that at the opening of this Commission the Commissioners informed the public that they would bo glad of assistance from any person who would help them to ])rosecute their investigation? — I was not aware of it; I was not in the country at the time ; 1 am only home a few days. 1069;}. Then it is only latelj'' that you have been aware of that desire on the pai-t of the Commissioners ? ~ I do not know that I knew it until 3'osterday when I heard Mr. Whitehead, and I did not think 1 would let it go unchallenged. I did not know until yesterday of the desire of the Commissioners to obtain information, and then T came down and saw Mr. Davin and wanted to be heard, and he said : '■ all would be heard." 10694. We may remark that we will hear all who wish to be heard, or who wish to give us information as to others who ought to be hoard? — Dr. Schultz ought to know something about it. 10''9r). Dr. Schiiltz has been named. Is there any other name ? — It has been suggested that Mr. Bown might give some information. 10696. Is there any other ? — I do not know. 10697. If you know of any other please communicate tho name to tho Secretary? — I will. 10698. Is there any other matter which you wish to give evidcMice on in connection with the Pacific Railway, or of any contractor or of any person connected with the works ? — No. (587 ROWAN e litno; I am c the name to J. ir. Rowan's examination continued : Bji the Chairvian : — 10609. Were data suflBciently ascertained to form a fair estimate of the (juantitieH so as to invite tondern upon some reliable information fur tlie Pembina Branch at its first coramencemont — this was the Mucstion asked yesterday which you were not able lo answer? — Having looked over the correspondence at the date wlion ihis woi-U was about to be commenced, 1 find that we had no detailed data, the line not having Imen surveyed, because the work was started very lun-riedly, as far as 1 remember, in consequence of representations made to the (rovernment by jieople of influence in this country that numbers of people were in very distressed circurastancos owing to the grasshopper pla'^jue, and 1 WHS ordered to make an examination in the country and locate a line lielween Emerson and Winnipeg on which work could be commenced immediately following in the main one of the public i-oad allowances between the two points named. 10700. I i.ndorstand that yon have described the work of 1874, over which you had supervision : what was the next operation which you iliiected or took part in ?- In 1H74, 1 had, I think, in addition to what 1 have already stated on the subject, sui-veys going on from the Red Kiver westward to the neighbourhood of Pelly, on what is known as ihe northern route. 10701. By the Narrows of Lake Manitoba?— Yes. 10702. Of what character was that survey made? Was it a location ■ui'vcy or an exploratory survey ? — It was a preliminary instrumental >iirvey, not an actual location for construction. In connection with liial 1 may state, on looking over my correspondence with a view to iiticsh my memory, I find here a lengthy report which I made myself to Mr. Flem'ng, after 1 had made a personal trip up there, up through tliat countiy by his directions and through up to the Saskatchewan, which I have never seen published in any of the reports at all; it must !i;ive been overlooked. 10703. What is the date ?— 21st October, 1874. .--^ 10704. What is the general tenor of the report? — The general tenor ot the report is giving them a description of what 1 saw in my trip, the liiUure of the country' as far as 1 was able to ascertain it, its physical diaracter and its peculiarities, and what were the engineering difficul- ties as far as I could ascnlain, to be met with, especially in the neigh- bourhood of the ^Narrows of L;ike Manitoba, and the kind of country the line would pass through ii taken in that direction. 10705. Was it recommending a line by the north of Lake Manitoba, lis against the formerly projected line south of it? — No; the facts are these : the line was pi-qjected south of L:ike Manitoba, t was asked liy Mr. Fleming if we could not get a line more direct to the north, "Dil by the Narrows. I replied that from what I could learn about that "iintiy, that it would not be as favourable ; that it was very swamjiy niidwet, and that we would have more difficulties to contend with by S(oing that way than by the south. That was from enquiries 1 made Ifom parties whom I thought were qualified to give information in this 'luntry, and I reported to that eflfect. I was asked if I had seen any 'Jtlhe country myself, and been over it at all, and generally on what I HnlUvni- Con* Htrtictluii - Coiitrnct Ko. 5. Could not CHti- mate quantities ; line not havlnK been surveyed before It was hurriedly coni- nienced. WurveyH: 1874— ■line north of liiike JUhiiI- to1ta« Preliminary survey from Red River to Fort Pelly north of Lake Manitoba. Vi^'ltuess's report 21st October, ISTl, on route to the north. How survey to north of Lake Manltol^acame to be made. ROWAN 688 Surv«\v« t 1 874— Tiiiie iiurlh of liitUf '>laui> tohu. The report— per- sonal oDMorvatlnii and opinion or wltncHH. Reported that tho Narrows pre- Kented no norlous ditflculty and tho country superior to what was anticipated. Time when ex- amination made : Urd September to 18th Oetolier, 1871. Witness did not consider the country from the point of view of settlement. Bed Kivrr Selkirk fixed on as crossing In 1874. bused the conclusion I had arrivcl ill. J siiid T had not boon Ihroi'li tho ( >untiy mysolf, uiid it was only from what I could pick up fVotn pi'oplo who professed to know soniothin^ iib'xit it. 1 then rocoivfd iiisti actions t(t iho ottb(!t to kjiovv positively svhothcr wlia' I said was tho curto or not. We must have some pioper examination of the country made, and I was instructed to have a line run tliroi;L,'h thtit \v;iy, ;v\i\ al-o to go and see for myself, as fur as my time would ii coming from the east came out and struck' the riv(!r, there eouid be then no longer any doubt as to where we wore going to crosH. 10717. About what time did that happen ? -1 think that Wiis in tho till! of 1874. It I remember rightly, some time in tln^ fall oi 1874. 10718. l>id you procooil along the located lir\e to Koi-t I'clly yonr- >elt? — Not at that time. 107.0. Did you at any time ?— Subsequently 1 did; not tho whole way to Fort i\dly. 107:^0. Did you walk over it? — Yos. 107'iil. How much of it ?— About fifteen miles west of Lake VVinnipe- jfosis to this side of tlio F)u(dv Mountains. 1 dul not g(» around the Diu'k Mountains at ail. 10722. Was there any difficulty in getting over that portion of tho lountiy ? — No; merely some poi-tions of it wore swampy muskegs, like what you saw in section 14 the other day. Thei'o was no serious (iiflSculty, 1072;-i. Was any work done dui-ing the winter of 1874-75 in the field ? —Yes; those very surveys were carried on all through that winter. 11)724. Wo have got down now, as I understand you, lo the end of tho winter of 1874-75 ; what was the work next un'doi'takon on account of tho railway ?— Tiie next work undertaken then. 1 think 1 wont down to Ottawa in the early part of L875, and assisted in getting up reports and getting tho work in shape. Tho ])lans and ntlico woi-k ttenertilly and tho general charge I had, undoi- Mr. Fleming — nutsidc of what ] was perscnially looking after— that I attended to while in Ottawa. Then I came bacdc, 1 think, about June, i875, having been otlcicd — M coii.straction was about to commence, and it was considoi'oU impo si- lilelhat any ono engineer could look after such extended wo;k under con^t^^cti^>n— my choice as to what district I would prefer to take on (onslructi(l River <'roH«luir— Allt'Kfd I in* lirupnr 111* ilu«'iM-ei KninvM 110 Mi'iii- tit^rof I'lirlluiiiunt or (Mit^liKdT nUor- t'hU'd hi land '.vlinro Mile (•r(iH><('8 lieil lUvei . Survey hiK p;ul los li'uiri till' ciisl striiok iled Kiver hi nut or ihTt, litin— L Fort Ptlly. Survi.j»t. Winter o( is: 1-7.) tlie same .surveys carried out throu};li whiter. KnilwRy <'4>ii- Hlriictinii — Karly In IKT.'j went to Ottawa and assisted In nilirnr ii|) reports and putting worl< In shape. In .fnne, is?"), went to Manitoba to lake cliarj?e of district I'roir, Hat Portage to Kort Pelly. ROWAN 690 <'oliMtlrUctioii« Com rait No* 1. In IHTi, coiitrao- torH iKiKiin to liiiiltl a Itiic ''roin W>nt)l|i(iK to Selkirk itiidHully. WIt.iK'sN spc'cliilly liiKlriictcd IIS to lino from VVlnnl- fiBK tuHclkirk hat t>r>IUKiii)part of tliclr foiitniet. 10726. I tliiiik yoii niudo no alluHion to tho tulogrnph construction during 1^74, or tho beginning of i876 ; do you roraombor wliothor any of that work whh procoeded with ? — It vvus. I think it was in the fall of 1874 that I ho contraotorn came hore (Sifton, (IhwH & Go.) to build a lino lioro from horo to Pelly, with iohtruction to mo from tho Secretary of Public WorkH, that they wore also to connect this place with tho line by building a line of tolegniph from horo to Selkirk on the public highway. 10727. West of tho Rod River? — On tho west Hide of Rod Hivor. I may montiim that Sifton, Glaws & Co.'h (contract was to build a line oi tolegniph fi'om a point on the west side of Red River, along the liny of the railway, to Fort Polly, or Livingstone as it was subso(pienlly called, to the longitude of Polly. 1 had special instructions as to tin- building of tho lino from horo to Selkirk, as 1 do not understand thai to be a part of their contract. 10728. It was done under Sifton, (Jlass k Co.? — Vos ; I thiiil< in October. 1874, and tho beginning of November, titoy comraenceJ opuia- t ions to build this piece of tho lino. ■WitiK'Hsthcchan nel of (>(>iin)iuiil- cation bt'twuen FliMiiliit; iiiid contractors. ti»n-- roiin-ilctN Num. It niHl 15. Divisional Engi- neer sent to coninicnee Io<>a- tion of (M)ntrunt 11. Witness arrlvoil In Manitoba .Innc, iH75. Survey and loca- tion of contract 15 golDK forward under Carre. Pi-elliiiluary Survey- Polly to Ed- monton* Survey from Pelly to Edmon- ton H preliminary railway survey. 10720. Was the building of the telegraph lino beyond Livingstmiu westward, under your jurisdiction ? — To a limited extent only. 10730. What responsibility had you in connection with that work .' — I was made the channel of communication, Mr. Fleming occasionally iii-tructed me in reference to the matter, but tho details of it were nm under my charge at all. I occasionally gave general instruclion> regarding it as they wore communicated to mo by Mi'. Fleming. 10731. Will you proceed with a desci'iption of the works after the time you have luuned — the end of the wi titer of 1S74-75 — which were undor yoiii- direction ? — A division engineer with a staff of assistaritfi was app<)inted in Ottawa, and sent up hore to commence the location of contract 14, at Selkirk, and to work easterly. That is tho actual film I working location on which the work was to be constriicled. Busineis coimccied with the office detained me in Ottawa for some time later, and I did not get up hero until huinetime the latter end of June, 1875. In tho meantime vir. Thompson, the engineer — who was appointed as divisional engineer for contract 14 — under me, was at work with his assistants locating and laying out tho work which wa> let and known as contract 14; and generally speaking then the work of (ionstruction proceeded on contract 14 ; and the survey and location of contract 15 was also going on under Mr. Carre. 10732. Could you say whether the telegraph was located from Pelly to Edmonton on a preliminary survey or on a railway location survey? — It was on a preliminary survey. 10733. Was not a line located— the railway line? — Yes; it was located, but it was not located for construction. That is to say, all the curves were not laid round in 100 feet lengths as we would do it if it were a final location; but it was located sufficiently close to admit of the telegraph being constructed. 10734. Quantities were not ascertained, but the locality was leter- rained on? — Exactly. 691 ROWAN )h construction lor whothor uiiy was in tho fall Co.) to build a itn tho Secretary ace with tholiiiu I on tho public )f Roil River. I build a lino ol r, along this lino UH Hubsoquoully notions a» to tlu^ undorfitand thai fos ; I think in unraonco'J opoia- ond Livint^hlone jnt only. with that work ' ning occasioiuilly lils of it wore imt oral in8tructi()n> '. Fleming. workw after IIk' -75 — which were taff of aHsistanth lonco the loealion 'hat is tho actual be construcied, Ottawa for some ihe latter end nl' /inoer — who was nidcr me, was at . work which was :ig then the work Irvey and location )cated from Pelly ^location survey? le?— Yes; it was It is to say, all the would do it if it close to admit of ocality was deter- Trlcirraph— Mnliil«iiMac« 1073;'). Have you conHJdorod whothor it wouhl have been more profit- u.Tm,*''*'*"*'^'**' ablo to tho Govorninont to assume and woi'k the telegraph in connec- tion with tho railway, or allow it to bo controlled as it has been by other parties ? — I have. 10736. What is ^-our opinion upon that Bubjootasan onginoor, know- OperatinK teie- iiig the managojnent of tho buHinoss? — My opinion is that it would be hulalilu^j/ tho*"" much bettor in tho hands of tho (rovernmont; that is to say, tho oper- Oovtruinini. uting of tho lino. Tho construction, in my own opinion, would bo hotter done under contract, under proper supervision ; but the operating of it and maintaining of it, in ray o|)inion, would bo much better in the hands ol the (Jovornmont. 10737. What advantage could tho (lovornmont have reaped, which they have not I'oapod, if they had undertaken tho maintaining and operating of the linos? — It would have boon in hotter shape, and of more use to tho Government and the public generally, than it has been under the present management. 10738. Has there boon trouble about tho otficioncy of the operating and burtiness gonorully ? — Ves; it has not boon properly maintained. 10739. What sort of trouble have you experienced ? — Tho lino being down and unable to get coMJinunication over it. 10740. For short intervals or long intervals have you been deprived of the opportunity of communication ? — To what partdoyou now refer? 10741. To any part? — Say between iled River and Livingstone, it Contrai-tMo. i. has been down, if I. roniombor corrocily, lor as much as a month at a nutweeu Htni time, r think I am safe in stating that it was as much as a mouth at a ,'tm,'y^iine,Vowii'a lime. I might say t^urther, in connection with this subject, that a con- montii at a timo. tract was let for tlio erection and maintenance of this line that we are now speaking of, fiom Red Riser to Polly — tho erection ol'it and main- tenance of it for a certain liumber of years, and also the operating. I think that this was tho only contract on which the operating was lot. Wiiero tho mistake, in my judgmont.occurred was that too much roliance tim) nmch rcii- wa.s placed on the fact that the contractor had to maintain tho lino for n"" vlL'w tim't" live years, and it would be, therefore, his object to erect a good line in coniiaotor the first place so as to save expenses in mait)taining it afterwards. Thi'^ ii'i^y. livc^'joars'iv I'ontractoi- ibolinhly for himself, in my 0|)inion, did not take proper youiM bo his lu- steps to SCO that that was done. j^ood unc. J0742. Then tho inducement which was supposed to be held out to him was not safftcient to make him erect it of a permanent character ? — Xo; but I think he was very short-sighted not to have taken more trouble to have erected it well in the first place. 10743. You moan that the inducement was not sufficient, because i had not tho effect of making him erect a permanent line in tho first place? — 1 thirdc hardly that. I think the inducement was good; but <'oiitractor woui4 ho did not see it right — he was blind to his own interest. If he had '" "''"'^ "*''■ used proper judgement in the matter, he would have seen that it would have been better for him to exercise close supe-'vision in his first con- struction of the line, in order to save subsequent expense. The rowult has been, in my judgment, that the contractor has expended as much money in trying to keep that line in repair as would have built a line of double the length properly in the first place. 10744. In what respect was it not properly built ? — The poles were poIcr not pat far not properly put down in the ground. J suggested that an efficient '^'i®"^*' '"«'"""''* 44i Iiidufeinent lule- iiuate Kone could be sure thaiovery t' ROWAN 692 Trirvriipll— Aliiliitdiniirn and (;oiiMtriic- tly FlriiilnK. Coiilravt No. 4< lilno between Winnipeg and Tbunder Hay badly matn- tftlned, Serious delays causing loss. Messages repeat- ed at Rat Portage 111' I '"} J.I Defects exist up to present time. inxpootor Nbould l»o noiit ulonj^ with tho conti-actor during the; work oi oohhI ruction, who hhould hitnsolf, on bohiilf of the Ciovorrwnont, soc that ovcry |)olo was jmt ih)wii tho proper length in tho ^routxl, ami ihc lino put u|) ill |)ropor order, in tho first j)la('((, as it was impos>il)lu | could, ill (•oiu\o(;tioii with my othor diitios, pcrsontilly neo to this matter myKolf. 10745. To whom did you mako that sui^i^ostion ? — To tho (!lii,.| Kiiginoor. 10746. Was that bof'oro tho construction of the toio/^'rapli liiK boon conimonccMl, or wliilo it wtis in pro/jfross ? — To tho host 1 recollection, both. lt)747- Then you made tlu; siiygostion upon more than one ot;* 3'ou think? — 1 think so. 10748. Was it ado|)tod either wholly or in |)art ? — It was not adoptud, and the reason assigned was tho one I loll you : thiit it was considorod that tho contractor, liaving to maintain tho line for tivo years, would be at pains to put it up substantially in tho first place, to save exj)enst' in maintenance. 107^9. Wore these suggcfttioiiH in writing or verbally do you think ' — I cannot at this moniont say; but 1 will be in a position, by looking,' ovei" my leitors, to give you a decided answer. 1 think that thoy were made in widting. 10750. As to any othor section of the telegraph lino have you any evidence to give upon the maintenance and upon the efficiency of the operating? — I have further to say, in reference to telegraph constnu- tion, that the maintenance of the line between hero and Thunder Bav has been very poor, especially that portion of it east of Rat Portage. 10751. Has the defective maintenance interfered with its busine.S() in connection with the railway ?— Very materially. 10762. Do you moan that delays, inconvenient and long delays, have occurred? —Serious delays — a loss to tLo work. 10753. Have you any moans of commuuicating directly from your own office over that ])ortion of the lin . ? —Yes. 10754. Then has the manner in which it has been operated been under your own supervision continually — I moan within your own knowledge as to its efficiency or otherwise ? — Yes ; that portion between here and Rat Portage has been dii'ectly under my own knowledge, and from the fact of it being connected through with tho Thunder Bay portion generally. 10755. As Ji matter of fact I understand that your me-sagos are repeated at Rat Portage? — \es. 10756. So that if the line should be down between this and Eal Portage you would know it immediately by not being able to eommii nicate ? — Yes. 10757. As to the points beyond that you have to be informed from some other place ? — From Rat Portage ; except occasionally when they make what is called a through connection, then we can hoar Thunder Bay ourselves in my office; we can hear communication direct from Thunder Bay; but owing to the fact of the line not being kept in proper order this through connection is not at all continuous. I may 693 ROWAN iijf tliu work oi JoVtM'tlllUHlt, soc j^rouinl, mill till' as im|)l)s^illlo I to this miUtci —To (lu! (;iii,.i tlio liost i>t m\ liin one occ ),i tvivH not mlojttoJ, L WUH considered J yoars, woiilil be snvo expense in y do you think .' ition, by lookinf,' { that thoy woie [)0 have you any ) efficiency of the lOgraph conHtiuc- ind Thunder Bay f Rat Portage. " svith its business ong delays, have •ectly from your m operated been eitliin your own t portion between knowledge, and the Thunder Bay )ur me-sages aiv en this and Eai g able to coinrau- e informed from onally when ihcy an hoar Thunder ition direct from )t being kept in itinuous. I Hi'iy MHiiiti-iiniii'ea ,t!ite thill thcHo (loftH'ts of which 1 am speaking are up to the present *'«"♦'""<•• "**»• ♦• hour; in fuel, within the la^t few dayH it has involved us in very «erious iiiconvonionee, if not Io«h. 107r)H. Could you form any opinion as to Iho ])i'oportion of litno i,inc unc-sixtii of during which t'-o maintenance bus not been made sutHciently ; l(»r ■^■'""' """ "'"""''''■• in.slance, has it bv en onc'third of the whole year from time to time, or lessor more?— Speaking in the lowest approximation, I should say that ovor the whole distance it wouM be probably oiie-siNth of the year. IKT,")!). Out of order? — Yes; out of order. initio. Is there any other matter conneclod with the t»dei,M'aj»h busi- roiiMtintiuiii— iiess which you tbiidc necessary to explain? — I might mention, lor the * acrVisH KKer. infoinialion of the ComniisHion. that the conti-acts for ^be telegraph „|fj,^|| ^.^^j^.^.^^^j were let, one from Thundor Hay to I'ed River, to the east bank of tlie jjnp ix'twcin iim^a Red Fiiver, and atudhor was from the west bank of |{(!d Hiver to Pelly. 'w" st' lllink Ui!'* Those lines were unconnected. There was a break at the crossing of V,!^''PV.I"''"'^' "'.^. Red Kivor. I repoi-ted on this f"ct to the hnginoer in-(yhief, and also of and ftKreci to an offer tliat was made by Mr. Sifton to complete this gap, or to build J'jOrt'yeaVtouil a line aci-oss Red River connecting the two linos, which otVer and the $ sufflclcnt to calculate quan- tities where country is level. 10T67. Ah I understand the matter, a profile will show the elevatinn and depressions of the centre line of the location ? —Over which liie profile was run ? 10768. Yes ?— Yes. 10769. Would that be sufficient to enable them at Ottawa to calciilato the quantities ? — Yes ; where tht country was level. lam speaking n(nv of at right angles to the railway where it was level, .it right angles to the railway it would be unnecessary to make cross-pections. Consideraiji.- por- 10770, Was the line on this section level ? — For a considernlile portion I4°evei.*"°"*''^"'^* oi' the ditstance it was; but other parts were very rough. First forty three ml les east from Ked River level. And the greater portion of what remains over level luuskeg. Only two- flfteonths would require cross-sec- tioning toarrlve at exact quanti- ties. A location survey not made on line on which the rall- vay was to be built east from Bed River to Cross Lake, but a survey and line run by Carre not to bo the line to be followed, It being one from "Whicli deviations "would be made. Line actually made, laid down and another line thouffht more desirable dotted. 10771. What proportion of the distance would you so describe?— Speaking approximately, the first forty-threo miles going eastward from Eed Eivor. 10772. You think tha:^ would be so nearly level that the centio line would afford sufficient dat>^ to make an approximate estimate ol the quantities ? — Ido. 10773. And from that point further east would there bo any pfopoi- tion of level country — I mean level enough for that purpose? — Yo; iii broken stretches the line runs for a considerable portion — in fact, the greater portion of the remaining part of section 14 — across muskegs which are quite level. 10774. What proportion of the distance of the whole icngtli of 14 would be of a character where it would not be level enough to admit of fair estimates being arrived at without cross-sectioning?— Probably out of the whole length of seventy-six miles there would be about ten miles of cross-sectioning in order to obtain the exact quan- tities, 10775. I believe, as a matter of practice, it is not expected to give exact quantities, therefore I do not ask the question with reference to exact quantities ; but 1 mean approximate quantities in the ordinary sense of approximate quantities ? — T only answer the questions just as you ask them. I do not volunteer any statement at all. There is somo- thing I would like to say, Ido not know whether it should go down in evidence or not. 10776. Yes ; you can explain ? — Have you gathered from what I said to you, that the location survey wa' made on the line that the raihvay was to l)e built eastwards from Red River towards Cross liuko ' 10777. Yes ? — Then that was not what I wished to convey. 10778. What did you mean ? — A sui-vey and line had been run hy Mr, Carre, but it was not (as was stated at the time it was sent to Ottawa) to be the line that would be followed when we came to make the road — that deviations would be made from it, and what was cailcii an approximate profile was plotted from that of the line that was intended to be followed, as laid down on the map. The lino actually surveyed was laid down on the map, and then another line was shown, dotted whore we thought it would be a desirable place to make the final location ; and what was called a compiled profile, I presume, was made in tho office at Ottawa, intended to represent appioximaloly what would be a section of that dotted line. - ■ij'ma-H«7» 695 KOWAM 1077'K Explaining the object for the present of the question wliich lam asking you, there has been a good deal of diseiiH>ion about suffi- rjtMK'y of the data which were within the knowledge of the Government at the lime that the tenders were invited for this work, some persons (■(mtcnding that it is not necessary to have anything like accurate iiatii, and others that data such as weie offered in this case were alht- ^ether inadequate; and I am endeavouring to ascertain from you the ami)iint of information whicii was given to persons tendering, and wlicthor it was reliabU% or altogether or principally a matter of guess- ing?- I would say, in reforonco to that, it could (mly be an appi-oxi- ination ; but I cannot say. specially by the light of experience now, that it could be ihen considered a close approximation, from the tact that, as I say, the line was not located on the line intended to be followed when we cani(> to actual construction, and that these f-urveys, iiitbrniation and data forwarded to Ottawa, were all made in winter when the L-ioimd was frozen. No one connected with the surveys here ill the tield, as far as I am aware, had at that time any idea of the ilejjlh of some of the muskegs that were to be crossed. In making up the quautities from the profiles, the approximate quantities in Ottawa, it is probable that sufficient allovvanco was not made for shrinkage and subsidence. These quantities were not made up under my supervision, but I think it is not at all improbable that bad they lieen, I could not b.-ive given very much closer approximations than wi'io given under the circumstances. lOTSO. Have you been examined at any time upon this subject — I mean the ditiercnce between the (juanlities as executed and the quantities as communicated to tenderers? — 1 have been asked about it in Ottawa. 10781. Has there been a great disciepancy between the amounts coiiiiiiunicated to tendeiers on .section 14 and the Wwrks executed ? —There hits bien a considerable difference. The nmount of work executed is considerably in excesr, of the original iigui-es that were siihmiited to parties tendering for the work. 10782. Did you attribute that dillerer.co to the deviations of the line, and the extra de|)th of the muskegs only, or was there some ot'ior matter to which it could be attributed? — No; I attribute it to . lio.>'0 two things, to deviations made on the line, and to the nature of the material, as it subse(|ucatly turned out. 10783. Had the devi.vti<»ns beon in the direction of increasing the fiaiitities or of dimi"" bing thoia on the whole? — On the ea-^tern end, 1 think, they have lb.. uod to inci'>ase the quantities; on the western end to decrease. 10784. Could you say upon the whole, whether the quantities have i'eeii increased by the deviations? — f think upon the whole they have probably been increased. In fact, it is not only probiible, but they liave been increased upon the whole. I078r). Have you at any time considered to what extent the dcvia" tii'tis have increased the quaiiiilics ? — X"t in detail. 10786. J3y percentage or any other method of informing us? — Yes; Ilhink 1 have. 10787. By Avhat percertage have the deviations increased the estimated quantities ? — I <'Ould not say at this moment. I will make a 'i"to of it. I think I have some figures bearing on the question. utriirtlnii ~ Cuiitracf No. II. Only III! Hpproxl* niutioii lixjuim- titles could bo rtiTlvwl ai. The Hill' not loi'iilt'il (III line lnt('ii(J(>(l to l>c fol lowed. Data forwariii'cl to Ottawa, all made in winter. None any lile-i ol' tlie deptli of iniisketjs to 1)1' crossed. Work e\i'<'iitiil on lljlc hctwi'en final esiiniatcs and nica.siire- luems. All Inforuuitlun rl tjuantlttes sont U> OttHWIl. IO7H.S. Id |)re|)afiii_i( tin; progress e•^li^I»&to^>, do you state the dilT'oroiit poiuth jiloiig the line at whicli llio qunnlities are ascertained, or only the a^i^iegate ? -Tlie aggregate. 107^9. In ordoi- to arrive at this aggi'egate, I suppose you havo tiist some data as to the particular localities? — The assistant engineers havo all the detail measurements of each particular locality. 10700, So that it would be possible, by comparing those qiuiiitiiius with the quantities ascertained before tendeiing upon the same loralilius. how much they ditfer, if they ditt'er at all, in each locality ? —Yof<; I believe that has been done. Iarison has ben, made >o as to ascertain what inci-ease in ([uantiiies is duo to musl ;' — I am ; generally from information I gathered. 1 learned from Ukh- who W(!re engaged in the work, that in those portions of the linu wheie it was jKKssible to re- measure the work with any degree of aicunuv, th«: re-measurement substantiated the linal estimates as I'eturned of ilu' work ; but that on the swam;»y portions, especially the Julius Mii>kei;, that they could get no such quantities out of the re-measnrcmeut a.-; the original measurements when it was measured at the time it was done, show. 10792. Do you mean that at some time estimates of the e.xocutoil work have been made too large? — No; but a ditch was dug in the muskeg, and it was measured when it was dug; subsequently the sidus clo.^ed in and the bottom rose, and to measure that after these things had happened, it would not give the same cubical contents as it did when first completed. 10793. It does" not occur to me that that is material to the question I ask, but I will explain, so that you may see whether it is so or not. 1 urn endeavouring to ascertain the cause of the ditt'ereiice between the (|uaii- titles actually executed over the whole work and the (quantities origi- nally estimated. Now you say that this difference is due to two causes — first, deviatioNS of the line, and secondly, the increase in ilit (juantities required to fill the muskegs. Vou say that the deviations in the line inci'eased the quantities to some extent, and that extent can be ascei'tained b}' calculations which you havo made. Now I am oiidca- vouring to find out how much more the quantity was incivax'd, bei'ause of the extra filling required foi- the muskegs, and you say that estimates have been taken fi'om time t(» time, at oacli locality, so that one could ascertain the inci-ease of (juantities due only to the muskegs. Then by ])utting these two increase: togetlicr, we can see whether the whole increase upon the original ostiniate is mainly duo to this particular cause which you have given. Now, as lo the muskegs, anil the increased cost of them, have you means at your disposal l)y which you can inform us how much was due to that causo? — I find • 1 that information is in Ottawa. 10794. Do you thiidx t!;at inf( rmation has been sent to Otta-v'i., , iiu\r ing bow much of the iiicroa.^e is duo to muskeg filling? — The wnole of tin detail measuromonts of the work as completed were sen » '.c Ottnw::, 10795. (Tiviiig oatih locality ?— Giving each locality. 1079G. Not only the aggregate result? — Not only the aggrogalo, Imt cvti'v book and ]ia])er connected with the work of the assistant oiii,'iii- eers, and the division engineers' returns, books and papers were wont ;:^'' ^mflsni 697 ROWAN tate thedittbrom I'tuincd, 01' only c you have tii'st t cngirioers luivc those quant ilies Maine locali lies, )cality ? — Yct^; 1 lai'ison has boii, luo to rTnisl ? irned from those ofthe lino where ree of accui'ary, s retui'tieil of the e Julius Muskei;. measuix'iueiit us the time it \v;ts of the oxocuted was dug in the quently the sides ler these things intents as it did to the question 1 is so or not. I am otween the (|uaii- (j^uantities oiii;!- is due to two iie increase in the the deviations in hat extent can be Now I am onde;i- y was inereu>eil, egs, and you '■ay at each loeality, Mtities (Uie only ise!. tog'etliei', we 3stiniate is fiainly Now, as lo the 1 mean^ at ymir Jueto that cause.' t to OttO>*^i., ^•llu\v f ?_The wriole "t resell! ;cOttn\'.:. Lhe agf^roiTUto, hut assistant ent,'iii- papers were noiit AUowIni; lor extrsi iuiiouiit ro— quired I'oi- imis- ki'K ami ilevlii- tlons, orlfj;inal o.stlmatn would Oo nciirb lonccl. Knilwnv ( ou- Mtriictioii— to Ottawa, and they give in detail the exact place whore every cubic *'*•»*»■*<■• ^<'- *♦• yard of earth was taken from. As regards the increase of quantities that is due to two causes, namely : deviation of line and nature of the material on the muskegs. The difference between that and the quan- tity as jiuhlished for the information of contractors is the excess that tho.^e two causes give I'ise to. loTHT. Then your opinion is that on section 14 there was no defec- tive estimate at the beginning — I mean no serious errors? — I thiidc ihe fpiantities were under-estimated. 107.'S. Yes; hut only because of the extra amouiil required for ln^lske^•s and the extra amount required for deviations? — Kxactly. IdTi'J. Alhnving for this, the . riginal estimate would be nearly cor- rect ?— 1 presume so. ]0">( •: '-i that the conclusion at which you have arrived after con- siiu'.tig 1 subj(\ct? — The conclusion at whieh 1 have arrived at is (h.Ti 'he r^xcossive fjuantity is due to the nature of the material through which the line was constructed and the deviation that it was t()and (losirabic to make. 10801. And making the allowance-i which are actually oc asioned by those, as far as you can understand the original estimate was about right? — Yes. 10802. You have mentioned the Julius Muskeg. Now, as to the ditch .iuiihh .nuMkeg. at that point, which is not, I believe, on the line, and for which a claim is made by the contractor because it is not on the line, arxl because he was required to haul material a much longer distance than he would if it had been on the line ; can j'ou explain the reasons for putting the diti'.h in the place where it is, and the effect upon the contractors claim? — It was t'aii^i 'locessary to drain the Julius Muskeg in ordei- to huihl the railwi;y ucsoss it; profiles and lines were run in dirt'erent cl.reelioris, w'lh a \ io'.v of asterlaining how this could be done most Reasons why dlt(th chosen. Best for (ioverii- raent and eon- Iraetor. e(otifimically. ar< y^V.'n the least exj)enso, both to the (rovernment and to tliu contractor, , ad !',]V)n due consideration of the advantages and disadvantages of ai> t' . lines, the one on which the ditch is now dug was selected as giv.ng a less amount of work to be peri'ormed, work which would bo at the same time easier for the contiaeioi- to do, and it would be more permanently useful to the railway than if carried out ill any other direction. 1080!:}, ! understand that tbe main object of this ditch is to lake An otr-takeditoh, water from the line in the same manner that off-take ditches are intended to move it? -Yes; it is an oif-take ditcli. 10804. 'li: : right to claim extia pay for hauling the material from any place to put it into the road-bed until a certain distance is reached, which is defined in the specification ; but it is only when the engineers oblige him to haul material beyond that distance that he is entitled to pay for extra haul, and then the pay that he is to receive !;> distinctly specified. 108()!>. Do you moan the dista- ce beyond 1,200 feet?— Yes. 10810. And at a fixed price according to the distance beyond thai? — Yes. 10811. Has the contractor the option of wasting the material talceii from off-take ditches, if lie wishes? — In otT-take ditches it is specified that he will take the material and cast it back from the ditch so many feet on each side. 10812. But it is wasted, as far as the building of the road-bed is con- cerned, if ho wishes. He is not obliged to remove it into the road-bed ? — He is not in most cases ; but the engineer could compel him to put it in if the engineer thought it desirable in the interest of the work to do so; but it is sj)ecitied in the specification distinctly what is to be an off- take ditch, and what is to bo done with the material, and it is pointed out that that class of work will probably be of a more expensive character, than the ordinary side ditch of the railway. I might men- tion in connection with this subject, as yon have asked me, that the whole matter was brought before the notice of the acting Engineer-in- Chief, Mr. Marcus Smith, during one of his visits here, and in my offiie, b}' the conti-actors, when tho whole matter was discussed between thorn. myself and Mr. Marcus Smith, and he decided that they had no claim nor no right to claim extra payments for that work, and, as I under- stood a member of the firm who brought the matter urder his notice- Mr. Farwell— the thing was then definitely settled. Grade lowered In order to reduce COIit. 10813. Would it not have been possible when the bank thi-oiigh the muskegs was found to shtink so much more than was expected to lower the gi-ade of the road-bod in order to reduce the cost? — That was done. 10814. Was it possible to have been done to any greater extent than was done without injuring the efticiency of the road ? — It might possibly in some places. 699 ROWAN e tho ditch was my Mtriiftioii— Coiitinct No 14. ]0ol5. Whs the oxpodioncy of doing so considered and decided upon fioni time to time ? — Yes, I think it was ; and it was done. The banks were not made up across the muskegs to tho height shown on tlie profile. 10816. I mean was it considered whether it might be done to agrcater extent than has been done ? — I cannot call to mind that it was. 10S17. Would it have made any material ditt'erenco to the cost of the oiaduoouid not roiui, if they had been lowered to tlio lowest possible point? — I do not trnK-i/Toworwuii tliink they could have been lowered much lower than they are with advamaKe. advantage. 10818. You said that the ditch at tho Julius Muskeg was not made aiV,'ran.r,i'uiius !i> close to the road-bed as in ordinary cases, because the I'oad-bed Musk*'; not mndo Nvoiikl displace its sides ?— In places, yes. oniinariiy.'''''''' "* 10819. Would that have happened if the ditch had been as shallow as ordinary ditches? — It might, but not to the same extent, of (H)urse. 10820. Then there is tinothor reason which has not been stated. Is nol the ditch made to a much greater depth than ordinary ditches? — It Wii> laid out with that view. 10821. Was not that one of the reasons— I mean the extra depth — ^-Mlf"';.'^!,'':""' 1 • 1 1 r. /- 1 T 1 I o r. 1 WtUtll OfultCtl. why it was placed so fiir from the road-bed f — rartly. 10822. Would it have been safe to place a ditch of the size that was necessary to perform the work which that did as an off-take ditch so iioar the road-bed as an ordinary ditch? — No. 10823. Then it was because it was wider and deeper than ordiiuiry iliuhes that it was placed so far from the road-bed among other reasons? — Ves. 10824. t think you said that you had examined the surrour>ding country to see if oti-takc ditches, in the ordinary directicm, ct)ukl be niiule v/ith effect ? — Yes. 10825. And you decided that this, the one now made, would be more ttl'o'.tivc and less costly ? — Yes ; and easier tor the contractor too. 10820. Would you explain what would have been the character of the liitch if made in the ordinary direction from the )'oad ?— 7The di'ch would have been as long, if not longer, and considerably deeper. The depth to which the ditch would have been obliged to be cut in order to get through the intervening ridge which hems in the muskegs from tiie fall to the north where the ditch would have passed through th:it ridiic, would have been considerably deeper than it is through the ri(lg«! which it passes through, thereby entailing considerably more exj)ense oil the contractor in making it. 10827. What would have been the greatest depth if made through that other ridge? — I think twenty or twenty two feot. 10828. Where would that ditch have emptiini ?— Into Whitemouth Bivor. 10829. Where does the present ditch empty ? — Into the Whitemouth liivor !it a point further south. 10830. Was that difficulty explained to the contractor before you decided upon the present site of this ditch ? — It was, and a profile of If (lltcli iiiiulo in ordlniiry dlrcc- lion most liavi- been diM-pPi' and larjitT. Would liave enijiticd into VVI\ltcoH)Uth River as does present dltoli at point 111 It her south. Before site of pre- .sent ditch decided on the matti r discussed with ROWAN too ;. '» RnilMpy 0«»ii- Mtriiclion— ■<:«»iili-ncl No. 1 1. contrdctor who eeemcd to JlC<|lllOSf'(.'. Diri'Cf ions to conti'actor rf>K!ii' if from a Itori'ow-pit, or waH it a mattoi" of negotiation oi* compromise with him that ho might do it instead ot the ordinary lino ditch close to the road-bed ? — What actually did occur, to the best of mj' recollection, is this: I told him : "There is a ditch. Such of thematerial asisroquiivd to make up the road-way you will put into the road-way, and I will ])ay you roud-way price foi- it. kSuch as is not required you will wibiu in the ordinary way, like for an otl-takoditch, and you will got otl-taki' ditch ))rico for it." That was the understanding. I conceived that 1 had a I'ight to put any quantity I liked of it into the road-way. 10834. Did he assent to that? — I tliinkso, because there was no dilll- ciilty made about it at the first at all. 10335. Had he the opportunity if he wished to take the material from a smaller line ditch in the ordinary way closer to the road-bed, so as to make the haul shorter, if ho had preferi'ed it; 1 mean on the south side of the road ?— I can i\ot .speak positively on that point now. I believe that Mr. .Jefferson Thompson, the engineer in charge of the division^ and who re-ides at Kingston, and whom probably you will exainiiK' bofbie you get through, will be able to speak more positively on thit point than J can. 1083^). As to the quantities re(j[uired to make the road-bed throiii,'h the muskegs, was there any more than one reason why they were mm li in excess of what was originally estimated ? — Yes. 10837. What were the diffei'ent reasons?— One reason was that the material was sof'tei- than it was supposed to be at the time the suivtv was made. 10835. And by compression would fill less space? — Yes; by com- pi-ession and drying the water filled less space in the bank than it diil m sjYm, and even if it tilled as much space as expected. Besides tli;it reason there was another reason that a considerable portion of the stuff that was taken out of the top of the ditches — the first spading — had to be wasted owing to the character of the material being full of stuin|is and roots. This, according to the specification, wo wore not permitted to put into the bank. That had consequently to be thrown toonesido, and with it, of course, adhei-ing to the roots of the stumps, wasacpuin- titv of the material and moss taken from the excavation, which was wasted on one side of the road, forming a very considerable portion of the iraterial taken out of the ditches. lOSbH. Is there not another reason that the depth of the muskeg itself was much greater than was expected? — Yes; that caused it to subside and settle down. 701 ROWAN -hero was no dilti- 10840. 80 that even if the excavated material had been firm thoi-o would Imvo been a great exceed in the quantities in order to reach a tiim bottom ? — Ych ; not only that, I iit there would liave been an exce-^ owing to the ditches draining tlh! muskeg and making the ma- terial settle down so as to to: ni a solid boltotn. It would then reiiuire ii c-ioater amount of material to bring it up to the linr called the formation level. 10841. Was not the bottom of the muskeg much farther from tiie ^lllfaco than was expected ? Yes; a long way — nineteen feet instead of tliice or four, as was anticip.'Uod in the case of the Julius Muskeg. 10842. Do 3'ou remember whether there had been any aiLcmpt made to ascei tain th distance from the bottom before giving quantitie,^ in the estimates ?— Such an attempt as was practicable with the means at our disposal at the time the surveys were made. 1084o. At what time of the year were the surveys made? — In win- ter. 10844. And what means were at your disposal?— An axe, a spade and shovel and a pole. We had no boring tools with us at the time the surveys were made ; it was with difficuUy even we had to transport our supplies, which had all to be done on men's backs, and tliere was notliitig carried that could be possibly done without. Boring tools would be very cumbrous to transport, nor was it thought necessary to hiive them. lOBif). Were the tests made with these materials at your disposal considered to be satisfactory on the subject? — They were at the time. 1U846. What is your opinion of the road-bed, as it is now constructed over muskegs, as aifecting the wear and tear of rolling stock and rails? — 1 have the opinion that it is very much cashier ; that that portion of the road which crosses muskegs makes a very easy road-bed for rolling stock to run over; will be easier to keep in repair, and will not be so injurious to the rolling stock as hardei' portions of the line of more firm material. 108^7. S) it will save in W' 'ving expenses something of the ordinary e-xpcnditure of the railway? — Yes; no doubt of it. 10848. Of what character is the material in the road-bed as now made through these muskegs ; is it a peaty substance, or spongy, ov earth, or what? — It is peat, and moss, and sod and pine j'oots. 10849. Is there much wood fibre in it ? — I think there is, in some plnces. lOS.'O. Have yon considered the })robabilily of fire injuring it? — Yes, I have. 108.")!. What is your opinion on that subject? — I cannot now say whether I have reported in wi'iting about it , but I am positive, in oonvcrsation with the Chief, I have mentioned my views on the sub- joit, and that it i; desirable to give; the banks a slight coating of earth itr ballast, gravel or .sand, in order to protect them from the risk of fire. Wo liMve found from exMorience now that the banks have taken tire on ^evel■aI occasions, whether fnmi the locomotive or fi-om fires passing in every dry season, from 'he very fact of the men lighting matches to i>moko, igniting the bank, and if the wind is blowing it smoulders i-ight Kniltvuy €on- Ntriiftion— Couli-iKl >o, 14. MusUey iilnoteeii feet, doep Instoad of ttiroi! or tour ii.s anticipated. Survey rnaJo iu winter ; no boring tools. Boring tools cunibrou.s and fas thought then) not necess.'trv. Mu.skeg-road easy for rolling stock and easy to be repair«'(l. Banks boing largely made of peaty substance containing much wood-flbre, desirable to give them coating of earth, gravel or sand. Fires have occurred. I' HOVAN 702 ri^. Bnllwny Vow Coiitrnct Su. 14a Fin' In NOino caHeH iiiakcN holoN In bank. And Injuries tlcH. Contract 5 A« .]iul»{iDK l)y Flem- ing's report of April li)lh,1877, FlfnilnK had hliusell'niado oalciilatloMH of the work on fi A from preliminary profile. RnilM'Hy Loca- ti«ni— Coiilrnct. Vo. 14. No deviation to south eould have been made on •frtstern end of contract 14, ho an to make the work as efHoient at lefls cost. over the whole bank a small fire and IturnB otl a thin coating of ly bank. As that becomes an ash it smothers the fire and it goes oiii. But in some places where the peat is lumpy in the bank, with intur- slices in the Dank, it is apt to burn there and make a largo hole in thu bank where there are air passages. 10852. Do those fires injure the ties? — They do in some instanci's. 10853. Have they heretofore? — In a few instances; and once, as far as I remember, burnt or partially burnt at any rate the stringers and cap timbers of one of our culverts. 1085+. You spoke of a distance of about ten miles on section 14 beiriL' of a character that merely centre-sectioning would not give sufficient data to form anything like an approximate estimate ; have you any idea what time would have been required to have cross sectioned that portion of the line, if it bad been intended to get more accurate inl'or- mation ? — That would have depended entirely on the force that would have been available to have done it. With the force wo had it would have probably lengthened the survey by a moiith. 10855. I think I understand you to say that, as far as this partieuhii' section 14 is concerned, the absence of that cross sectioning made iin material difference in the estimates, because all the ditVoronce is now otherwi^ie accounted for, that is by the deviations and muskegs ?— I think so. I think it did not materially affect the (luantities, the \v;mt of that information. 10;)5''. Do you remember whether you made up an estimate of the work probHl)lyroquiredupon contract 5 A, that is the Pombina JJianch, north of St. iJoniface, before the Ortlor-in-(yOuiiciI wjis pai^scd by which Mr. Whitehead was authorized to proceed with it? — My impi-ossioii iv that 1 did give Mr. Fleming some information on the subject ; wholliei' it was l>efore or subsequently, 1 am not now in a position to stale, Imt I will make a note of it and bo able to toll you. 10857. Here is a document from which you can refresh your mcnioiy (handing witness a paper) ? — Having hoked at this dcpartrnontiil document numltcr 13,60::J, being a report of Mr. Fleming dafel April 19th, '877, I think that ho has made all these calculations himself from the preliminary profile made of this line; but f am still under the impression that I must have given him some estimate, at some time or other, of the probable cost of this portion of the work, of which 1 will bo able to inform you to-morrow. 10858. Have you considered whether it would have been expodiont to make a deviation at the eastern end of section 14 by localngthe lino a little to the southward of the present lino, or what ett'ect >*ucdi a deviation would have had upon the efficiency or cost of the work?— Yes, 1(>859. Do you think any deviation could have been made, so as to make the work as efficient and at less co.st, at the eastern end of U? — No; with the grades which we were instructed to follow no improve- ment could bo made. We inaile efforts, wo ran several trial lines, a plmi of which I will produce, and j)rofilos, before the Commission if it is thought desirable. VVe ran a number of trial linos, commencing us far west on contract 14 as station 3900. 10860. Was any trial line made commencing in the noigl J mrbood of .station 4000?— Yes. » ■ >, " ' J' •703 nOWAN Bendlne south woulil iiiuan lu'ivvlcr rock iiiid Krcfi" cr (^rvatiire tliiiii was per- nUxslblo. K»lUv «>• f,nrn- 108(51. Wan tlmt inado ho as to avoid tho buy in Crosf* LaUo?— Yes. ^'""amiVs*'"" 10862. About what .statioti oast of Crons Luke would that stfiko tho ursel'ln'ro^s''' •nain lino aijain? — It would strike it somowhero in tho neighbourhood r.akfooiiid be , " ^ ,. ° avoided. ol tho pi'osent line. 10863. About what station on tho present lino? — Wo did, closing in agiiin on contract 15, at about station 1!)00. I may inoution, wlion I say station 1900, that tho drainage on contract 15 I'uns from the cast westerly, and closes almost immediately on the west shore of Cross Luke, whereas tho .irainage for contract 14 runs from tho west oaHterly closing at the same point. 10864. Can you remember the nature of the difficulties which you met on that prnjxmed location ? — Tho difficulties were comment;! n;^ about the point you name, about station 400'); it threw us into very much heavier rock cutlinji;, while the curvature that it required to got round the south end of the bay, to get back to the high ground at about station 4018, was greater than wo were permitted to make on the lino. If wo had attempted to run ucn.ss further south, thereby avoiding this curvature, we would have been thrown into very much heavier embankments on the low peninsula, which cuts the high wall over wlijch the line is, in connecting with the main line. 10865. TIjoii as to the crossing or embankment over Cro.ss Lake pro- per, did you meet with difficulties there as to the length or depth ? — The length of the crossing ovoi- Cross Lake proper, had the line been >A'ung down to the course which I have just mentioned, would have heeri considci'ubly increased and the distance across the water would have been consiipot himftolf. lOSttV. Were the results of this inspection submitted to him ? — Yes ; and as I received no orders, after that had been done, to change the line, I concluded that the acting Engineer-in-Chiet had made up his mind also that it would not be an improvement to shift tho location to that point. This profile and plan wore forwarded to him at Ottawa. Ami iPriKtb of (iros.slns; would liav(.' bi'cn Increased. Owlnff to cliarac- tor of country on contract \'> im- possible to net till? firades which had bocn decided on without heavier cuttln^f. ROW»^ N lO-A ! •♦ Huliwily l<<>rn- tlOo Cuatrnt't Xo. 14. ]'",xlHllm; line as gCKMl UK could bl! I'OUIIil Willi I lie UriiduN. Kniltviiy Coiia Ntriitnoii— (/'Mill riM' loin* riHtiiiH. Exp'nsc In coii- Hequt'n<'(> of I|('H wlion work was Htoppcil ciisl or Julius MuMki'f.', more thun coiii' ponsatcd for by the cxtonsloii of time kjlvoii till in. dianK<' ol'lino botwoen lirokoii- Jiead and Willi.- mouth advan- tageous. 10H(!H Ai-o yon at tins day of llio opinion that the lino u'loptod i^ a> ^ood HH any that ('(nild Ixi I'.nind on that jiart of the vvoilv ? — I am, uiiii I hi! grade- that wo wore cullod on to I'ollow. 108()it. The contriiftor.s upon section 1 1 make achiim for the exj)iMiM's of inoviiii^ men and nupplius, wluui the (diani(o of line w;i.s CDnlempialcl ai:d the work stopped east of the Julius Muskeg; do you remeinl.n'i' aii> thing about that matter? — I do. I am of opinion that the delays to whicli reference is made, and which only extended over thr(;e or four rnonlhs, were more than compensated flir hy the exterisi(U) of tjnu' which was given to the eontractors fbi- the completion of their work. I have, however, sul)initt(.d my views on the subject to the u'hief Eiigiti eer, in a letter dated lOth January 1870. 10i'';70. There is also a (daim by the contractors for tlie ciiiingeof liiio between Hi-okeiihead and Whilemouth, because the eharacter of tin; soil was different and more costly to work ; do you remember ahoiit that i em ? — 1 do. A report is made in refei-ence to this claim also in my lett((i of the flute which 1 have just named. 1 may hero state hiiell}- that the change was made owing to the fact that it W()uld have entailcl considerable additional cost to have made the railway on the first line to which the contractors refer, if we wore called upon to carry throiigji the grade, of twenty-six feet to the mile, running eastward ; bychan^- ingtothe present location the difficulties in this respect were removed. 10871. Was the change more advantageous to the CTOvernment, do you mean ? -Vow. Iu872. How did it affect the contractors ? — L fail to see that it mate- rially atJ'ectod them at all. 10871^. Are you still of the opinion that the views expressed hy you in the letlei- referred to, are correct? — 1 am. 10874. Is there any dispute about coffer dains with the contractors? — I can hardly call it a disj)ute; they made a claim for an extra pay- ment on account of |)Utting in the cotter dam for the pier of the brid^'e over the Whitemouth River. 1 did not feel that 1 had any authority tn witness's opini(m. entertain such a claim with the specification befo.-o me. When the acting Chief-Engineer came along, they submitted their claim to iiiiii. or stated it to him; they thought they were entitled to consiiloration. Actini? Chief The acting Chief-Enginoei' read over the specification. I<-annotcall ti> hiiii'to have a *^'^ mind now exactly what he said on the subject, further than he desiioil me to have a note kept of what the actual cost was in making thi> coffer (lam and send it to Ottawa, when 1 was making my return of thi; firal estimate. This 1 did, and my remarks on the subject will bofoumi in the same letter to which I have already referred, and to the view> therein stated I still adhere. 10875. There was also a claim made on account of delay in localiiiii the east end of the line, by which it became necessary t'> team plant and Mip|)lies from Fisher's Landing at an extra cost to the coiitraclois: is that subject mentioned in your letter? — Yes; that is item No. <). I have reported on that. 10870'. Have you anything further to add to what you have ro|ported? —No; 1 think what I have reported in that letter covers the subjoct fully. And lr> no wav In.jurlnuH tot'i traittors. Claim for roller ilwiii for the pier of the bridge over Whitemouth River without foundation In note made of actual cost and send It to Ottawa. Claim for loss eoii.iP(iuont (in U? — I am, will) or Ihu ox)uMi-.(s 18 contciiiplalcl you rinnonili'i' that tho (loliiy-i .-or thnse or toiir tefisioii of time I of tlioir work. Uio I Uiiof I'jiigiii !io ciiiingoof lino ,',lKll'ilCtor of till! roinemlior iil)()iit is chiim tllso in hero stale briufiy uld liiivi' eiitaileil on tho tir.st linu to cany throiigli twurd i bycliaiii:- ut wore removed. Government, ilo »eo that it mate- sxpi'esscd by yon the contractors? ail extra pay- lior of the brid^'e any authority !n me. Wlion tho r ehiini to him. to coiisidoratioii. . i cannot call in than he desired in making this my return of the ijoct will bot')iinil iul to tlio vie\v> delay in lociUinj!- •y to team plant () the contracloi'>: is item No. <'■ I 3 )U have reiinrted? vers the bnbjoct 10877- I iindoi'.stood from Mr. Sifton, one of tlie ('oritruutor.s, that you favoured their cduira to sotne extent for I'oads, made nso of l»y the Government, whicli the contractors had consiruciod? — Ve.s ; 1 find that the lust clause of my rejiort on that subjoct, in this same lettoi', winds up with the words : " I consider the contractors entitled to some cousid- oration under this head. " i087rf. The contractor led us to undei'stand that n portion of tlie claim was foi' the u-io f»f this road by the contractors for 1*), and not alone for tho mail service oi- any woi'lc of the (Tovornmcnt ; have you tonne I any opinion as to the pi-oportion of the whole expense of rcpairin:,' whi di the (roveMunent ought to pay ? — I have not, and it \voMld l»e a vory dilHcult matter to decide. 1(I87L>. 1 think In3 t^avo somc! oviden(!o, which was to the clfe:'t thai tho \V')rk f(jr the iTovernment alone would l»e about on^vninlh of th ^ whole cost of rc])airiiig, and that foui'-tunlhs would b" lor the c 'Utia 'i ors themselves, and the otiicr loui'-uinths f)!- the contra"! ors ol l". 1 do not know whclh-r you have re ison to think, wit boat curcl'ul cnn^id- eration, that ihese pr(j; ortious would be nearly right; if so wo would he glad t.o hear you on that subjoct ? -I would say, in retei-eiice to that, it would 1)(! dillicult, even impossible, to ai'i'ivo at anything like a coi- rect conclu-^ion as to tlcj ])roportioiis; the ligui-es you have state I seeni tome, speaking in a vei-y uncertain manner on tho subject, to be pretty fail', except the one for the Government, alioul their one-ninth. I do not know that the ( J.)vei'nnuMit are entitleubt, and put him to consideralile e.Kpenso; but in my engineering exiiei'ionce 1 never knew that a company or the (.iovei'nnu'nt has been eallect upon to [)ay for the use of contractors roads, whicli he had tomake over his work, for them to pass backwards and forwards over tlieii- line. 10880. Is tliero any reason within your knowledge why the Ciovern- should pay tor the use of this road by the contractoi'sof*Hoction 15? — No; none whatever, that I know of. 10881. The contractors also claim an item foi- extra price of work at Selkiik Station ground : is that one of the subjects upon whicdi you have reported in the letter alluded to? — Yes; item Xo. 9. 10882. Arc you still of the opinii)n that your report is a correct oi., on that item? — 1 may road the last part of my i-oport in reference to that question ; 1 also reported in a letter above loferred to. The con- pludiiig portion of the report on tho subjoct is as follows: — " The matter was hroupfht under the noMce of the acting Kntfineer-in-Chit'f here [not Winnipeg] by the contraetcr. He directed the division engineer an^l mji^i!!!' to determine on wlmt propcjrtioa of tiie m (-"erial removed the coutvacior miglil lay claim to extra remuneration, and also what priee ])er riibie yard winild be a fiir allowanee. Tin' q lanlity we riiaki' to be 19 iltit cnhic yanis, and ih-' [jrice 50 cib. jier cubie y^ird, whi'di wo ild anio int ti^ ih^- sum ot S9,fj82 ; or, i;i otln r wurd?, if this meets with aiiproval, tiie tirnil e.^timate would be increased by th" sum of .-s4,6,S53.59, incr-'iised as per item, page 17 of this ieport, $2,800, and 83 ab.jve $4,tj47.36, total $644,350.95 " lOS -3. Have you made any estimate, oi- iirocured any estimate, of the woi'k yet to be executed from tho 1st of Aiigii.-t on contiact 14, oi- ls it considered to bo linished ? —1 am having such an eslimale [irojiarod foryi 11, and will submit it in a few days to the (Jhief lOngineer. 45 lluiUvny <'on- wIriH'tlon— C'oiitrart No. I 4. 0»ntr.'»<'torM* ChOiii fur eoio- pensation rot- iiMt' of roMn nf lllhlllly Ini repiiir of roads esMmiil- ed hy eoill I'lietor filir exeepi the one Hint li eharji- edtoi Jo\'ericiii:i*.. Claim for i^xtrn ■M-lrv at N -Ikirk Sintion ;;roiin(l: witness reeotn- inend(>(l ;m e.xtr.'i '.: 'ce. Tliis wmild iii- erease total e.stliiiate liy - I,lil7.:!ti, wlileli with item of $'_',s.')ii would h'-int; tt u]> to *(m,;i5(i.!M. f r I r- ROWAN 70(] \ '1m:' . MtriK'tloii— Coiitrnrl .'«<». 14. 4'«MI(l'H4-|«irN' <''IkIl('(('tl lllllltM' coiitriK^l wltli .Miricin, Wiir.lACo About two mlli's of foiilnicl II I raiisCc-. red to WI.ltcllOHtl. Ajrrcoim'iit wltli VVIiltchuad made) III Rowan's orticc ill pi'esenco o' and ut su^K*^'f)Mou <>l" MarousHiiiltli, aotlriK Chief KDijlnciT 10SH4. IImh tlio work boon fully (Nunidoted iitidor llio conti'iiot with Siftoii, Will (I &, ()()., (»n N(H'ti()n 14 — I inouii ii-rospoftivo of tlio oiihUmii 011(1, uiHlortiikon l)y Wliitidiciid '(* — No; it hiis not. I ropoit(-(l tlio lad tlinl siu'li was the ciiso i.i lliolottor to wliicli I liav(! m.-ido fVoc^iiorit rolci'- oiico of lato, and submitted an ostirnato of wliat it would coMt to do tliu iiiifirii^^liod workattlio contraftorn' i-ntos, stating al tho liino that itwa> ilifliciiit to Hay what it roally would cost. I suhmittcMl an o-*tiinaf(! «\ what it would cost if don** at tho cuntractor's rato, but it wns ditticiilt (o say wlmdior it c<)uld bo dono at contractor's rato or not, or what it would cost lOHSi. Was thoro any othor poition of tho lino which was ori/^itiiilly coiitracl !4, vvliich was aftorwards transforrod to Whitehead to W lihislicd ? — Thci'c was. lOHSli. \iiout wliat length of the line was that ? -About two niilt'-. 1id the work undertaken by Whitehead, by that airangeinniit, include detached tills, or did he iindoi'takc other work for the whole icm^t h i)f the lint^ at that tiine iintinislHMl ? — It wa . a specitied wmk remainino; unliiiislunl between a certain point on tho lino on coiitnui 14, vvliich I think was specified in an agreometit. 10S8S. Then was it that ho should do all the work on that portior the line which it would be nocessary todoto fiiltil the contract, what the woik might be? — 1 think so; that is my recollection of it. l0^8!». Do you know how tho arrrtngenient was brought about V— I do. It w:,K brought about in my office and in my presence, by :iii arrangement ett'ected by tlio acting Knginoor-inC'hief, and a written an'rcoment was drawn up and signed by both paities, if I i-emeiiilHM •ight, wliii'h the acting Eiiginoer-in-Ohief undertook to submit to the 1 )epartmcnt for a|)proval. 1()8!»0. Was Mr. Smith tho acting Kngineer-in-Chicf at that tinio?- Yos . 10891. Was ho proHont ?— Yes. 10ft9:i. Wub be present when the agreement was signed, or whei: ilie arraiigement was made verbally ?--Yes ; it was all done under hi- supervision and suggestion and conversation, and fie handed it ovor to mo. 10893. Was a writing made, do you think, at tho time tho vorlial agreement was completed ? — 1 think so. 10891. Was it arranged altogether at that one meeting, or had tliero been previous meetings on the subject? — I think they had several meet- ings before they could come to an agreement. 10895. When you say they, do you mean the contractor for 14 and Mr. Whitehead, or do you mean Mr. Smith also ? — The contractor and Mr. Whitehead had frequent discussions about it; and if 1 remember right, there wore discussions at which all three -that is Mr. Siftou, Mr. Whitehead, Mr. Smith and myself — were present, before the conditions embodied in the agreement wore arrived at. 1089(5 Who represented the contractors on those occasions ? —Mr. Whitehead was present to speik for himself, and the contractors of section 14, and^I think, I would not be quite positive, whether it was Mr. Sifton or Mr. Farwell — I am not quite positi^. e— or both. My im- pression is that it wae Mr. Farwell. TOT ftOWAN ifli WHS ori^iiijillv VVIiilehoad to W of at tluit time?- I timo tho voiliiil HMllfi'HV C'aiiiB >itrii<'tloi» — 1(»MII7. doiild you (loscrrilu- tho pro^rosH of thi' no^'otliitioiH without *"■"»•'■•»«'• '*'\*^ loltvoiu'o to lh^( wording; ul tho (lociiinout ; lor instuiic^o, wo would liko V'iiiUiih. '* to iiM'ortaiii whothor iho V(!i hal arraii^omoiit was tho hamo an thai Vi riml Hrniiii.'i^- wliioh waH otnhodiod in tho wriliiij:;? — Am to that point I can stuto that ".VJ'," ,',''',"',',',','!' ii wais, booauso I was piosont. As I understood, tho thinj^ was liiiaily inxiii'.! in wriunic. arraii^od, and tho written a^rooniont was iianded ovoi" to nto as llio liiinis on which tlio thin^ was to bo carried out, when I i-ecoivod noti- lication that it w;m approved of by tl>o authorities at Ottawa 10Si)8. You moan, of <'ourso, tliat it was inlotaU^d that tho writing should embody their agre<'ment ^ — Yes. 10899, But it mit^ht bo a (luostion of lej^al constiMiction what tho wiiitoii.fu.i i<> \,\-o\H'V meaning' of tiio written document is, and I urn endeavouring^ to ^vI".'|['n'I,'.'|.jMv' ih i<» Mscertain, witiiout rcfoience to tho words in tho document, what tho iIkkh i-dsi en'iof verbal agrcomotit was? — Without seeing tho docuineiit I could hardly i,',iuVi'!ila.riii'i' ^I)oak at this moment as to what the verbal a;;n mient was; but the l!",""' ^^■''"•■"'"* impression convoyed to my mind was that tlie document embo lied .Mircii<)C(.vi^ri..ti»i what was u^i(;od between tho parties; that is to say — I may be wron;; — 'iim.'iu"*'"^' '^"" hut my recollection is that Mr. Whitehead was to comp'olo what work ilieio was to do on t'le eastern end of contract 14, loli unfinished by Sit'toii, and thill ho was to haul tho material from whore be liked, and that 4(» cts, a yard (1 think that was the piico) was to cover the total cost. Mr. Whitehead was also to take out a small (piantity of rock that was loft in the most ea>tern cutting of contract 14, with tho view of using it for rip I'ap on tho side of the bank across the bay. lUOOO. When you say tho total cost was to bo 40 cts., to whom do you sirion &c... rotor — the cost to whom — tho (rovernnient or to Mr. Sifton ? —To tho ,\Viu'iHyI.i'iii'i*fUia tiovei'nmont. Silton was ((uile clear of the thitig altogothor, as I umloi-- work oi this piiri. >ioo(l it. lie had nothing todo with that part of tho work. The work was 10 be taken otf his hands, if the (Jovernmont would assent to this agroo- iiK'iit. Mr. Hmilb, who was acting Hngineor-in-Chiof, predicated all bis consent to this ai-rangemont on tho uriderstamling that tho Department would a])prove of it. lOiWl. Was it montioned whether Sifton, Ward cV Co., after that time, wore to have any part oi- claim concerning that portion of the lino which Mi'. Whitohoad undertook to finish? — 1 cannot remember whether it was or not, but my impression is that Sifton was to have nothing more to do with tho work at all, because the matter was dis- ■usscd as to their not, having the {iroper kinr ? — I think it was to be according to dage sliould ap|)l\ .' •a haiUage for any ujled the material .' lilted by tlie lMij,'i the finishing dftlii- igth ot haulage ■.'-- >()nu!thin:X 'ike tw m limit for wliieii lid beyond whi' li li«' paid tor every yuni price a^ at ih:i' nbor. 709 -b 1 f.) T- ■ lOl'lf). Assuming for tlie jiresent that it is 2,500 icet, do you know ' H whether that limit, as to other contracts, had been tixc' and known to 9 yoiii'self and Mr. Smith, before the arrangemont made between Sifton, H iVard work otf their I hands? — Yen, that was known. j^ 10!) IG. lias the haulage upon thi> fiiiishii inucli greater distance than 2,30(? feet ? — Yes. lOlHT. Oo you think that eithei- you or Mr. Smith wouU sealed to any arTangement for the completion of that job .^ extra haulage bey^ynd 2. .500 feet wouhi have been possible to be made b}' the contractors: Sifton, Ward & Co. f — We would not liave assentcil to any such arrangement. I0;tl8. I)oes not this claim, at present, of Siflon, Ward iV Co., dejiend (in their being entitled to a very much longer iiaulage than these 2,500 leet? — I do not know to what claim ^'ou refer. 10911». Are you not aware that Sifton, Ward it ('o. are claiming for haulage for all that tilling done by Whitehead, beyond tiie price of 10 cts. which the Government paid him?— I am not. ROWAN RMilway <'oii- Mtrii<-li«»ii - Cdiitritct !\o. 14. ('oiitrnctom' 4'laiiiiH. e I'b been lor a lave con- >y wlii(di N'rltlior Smith uor witness WOUlll lillVI' ilS- scnted to any rlHiiii for liMiil- i»«;e lit-yoiKl ^f'tt^t r.'ct. 109:^0. The rest of t being upon the basis of the extra haulage for ih'^ whole length from the borrow-pit to the filling ? — Until now 1 \va.s nut awaie that my smdi claim was being made. 10921. Upon that subject have you anything to say?— I have a distinct recollection that when this aifrcement was beiiii; (liscussed between the parties already named, that the whole ([uestion of haulage, ill idl its bearings, as reganis Sifton, Ward & Co., Whitehe.'id & Co., and tb.^ (Tovernraeni, wuh very fully and thoroughly di?cu-sed by Marcus Smith. 10922. In the presence of the other parties ? — In tlie presence of tbef-e other parties and in m\' pioseiice; and that the conchision ai ,ved at thtr; and there, whatever the agreement made, was that the price — I tMnk it was 40 cts. — was in lieu of everything. There was not to be any charge fiir anything from anybody. Mr. Whitehead was to do all that was remaining to be done on 14. lo the silisfaetiou of the Government and their engineers, at the pr^ce of 40 ots. per cubic yai-d. Mr. Sifton was to have nothing to v^ what- ever as to getting any jjiice at all. Tliei-e was no (piestioM in the matter at all as to any further ( laim of Sifton, .as i understand it — that ho was wiped *>ut of the thing altogether. 10923. .Sifton, Ward tV Co. are now making a (laim against the 'idveniment up'^n this l,«asis : that they are entitled to be jiidd for all the 'iliing that wiis done according to their contract rates, intdiiding haul- au:e tiMin the distance which the material was hauled, and without any ina.\iin!!m limit, as oblaiiKnl in other contracts, in the way you have iiieiitioued ; and they say ihat the (Jovernment are eiititlol to deduct tiom that oidy the 40 cfs, per yard which they actually paid to \\biteliead. Sow, it is in reference to this matter that I a>ked you, ^oino time ago, to try and remember all the negotiations which led to UK' wiitten agreement, and this last evidence of yours touches tiie point? -That is exactly what I have said. My recollection is distinct that, as regards the exti-a Iiaulage in all its bearings as to the Govern- ment and the two other parties^ that matter was fully and QiK^stion or haul- age thorou;ilily • IIscusspU in inoetiiiK's preli- minary to iigrofineiit. UiHtiiiclly utjreetl tlitit Wliltohfart was to do all tlia liaiilaK*> at lU eta* '*, . ■„ C;. ROWAN 710 ■J if KalHvnjr Von- ^truc'iion— (Contract No. 14. 'ContraiclorN' Slfloii, Ward A <"■<>., Wt'lV lO llUVl! liu ( Ijilni for rxtra liAiilti^i wndtT »«»•»■»— vi<-nt yyhh Ar )'ngl)ii'er In chnrj^e would have considered It Inexpedient to inuke the HI lings in to(!over everything in connection with the making up ot that pail ni the work. 10928. I am asking you whether, as an ofiicer having a voice in the matter, 3'ou would have agreed to have it done if it had been likely to cost anything like |1 a yard? — I would not, for this reason: that wo discussed it in that bearing, if we had to pay for the extra haul. Sifton urged it as a plea, when we were discussing the matter, and said words to this effect : "There is no maximum to my haul, and ifyon compel me to haul the stuff away from the borrow-^Mt, we will ,i,'ot a big figure for it." "Yes," we said, " but we will not allow you lor it from there, we will make you scratch it up from the ditches and from holes in the rocks wherever you can got it." That brings something further to my mind. Wo went to work then and sank te.^t l»its all over that peninsula immediately close to the shore of the lakt', ^\ ROWAN »n, Wuid \ (',,, ton, Ward (do,. rvaiit to, 1)111 it KnilwAv Coii> !*ti-uctloii — 4'oii.rii4't \o. I I. <'4iii(rn<'torM* simwfil Sii'ioii iiiiil his l>i()llnT wluTt; tiny conld icel initlrrial : Imt llicy Niiui il wiis viM-y liiinl and would rai InT •^Ivi- 'AorU c)v>'i' to Wlilli-lu-ad. I'poti till' purl of llii> ( iovcrrimi'iit Hiiiith and wlt- i)(? one of the parties that was present. By Mr. Miali .— 10'J.j3. Only one of the Sittona or both ? — I am not quite sure ; cer- tainly the one to whom I ha\ e i-eferred ; but i am not quite sure whc lior they Wore both there; certainly the one who is the woi-king man. liy the Chairman : — 10934. Is there any other matter pertaining to section 14 which you N('wspap.iHattoii of Rrilx— rontractNo. 34. "Will proiluco paporH. IVUon^s Piir- vi'yiirNlii|». Nixon took his oriliM's innn Witness. I>miiis; Mir vcys fti'-iiif''!' ill cliarui' liiul power to rc(i«.l»ltl()n from Mxon, but durlnjiooiisl ruc- tion tills renuisl- tlon liail to be Biibinlttcd to Rowan. No 4;unlrol over Nixon's book- kei^plns. Complaints of del .\ in furnlsh- inu ;tn I as to qiiiililv' oiyooils. No serious groniiils lor sueli coniiilainis ; bul witness (Iocs not know whether proper iieeounts weri- kept or whether tood.s were bouKbt cheaply. lOl'^iT. Will you ploase prodiico tliom if you hiivo tliom now ? -I have not got them with me. Uil I will pro luce thctn to-moirow. I0!);j8. Wti.s ti.o purveyor under your jufisdictiou at any time iii ihe niaiiagetnent of the Ptieitic Jliiilway aH'aii's? -Yes ; Mr. Xixoii. 109.3it. Was he conHidercd suboidiiuUe to you? — Yen ; to a oi-itain extent. i(ll)40. Had you control over the sy.sti'iii in which he kepi his oodIo? — Xo ; ho used to take his orders from me. I liad to approve of tliin;;s before he could get them. 101)41. Kveiylhing or only of certain things? — Things connected wi'h my district. I()lt42. Would not the engineer in charge — Mr. Cari-e, for inslaiice — have ]iowei' to requisition for things without youi- supervision ? — Dmini,' the suiveyshe would, but on construct'on they were genei-ally subiniued to me Hrst. 10943. Then was there any time while Mr. Nixon wis puivcyor during which you had not the duty of always certifying or ordering things?— I think there may have been times when they did not cntno through my hands. 10944. J)o you say that you had no control over the manner in vvliith he kept his books, and explained the transactions of his de})arlmeiit ?— None whatever. 10945. Tiien you are not able to say whether they were satisfactory iu that respect? — In what respect? 1094(i. The .system of exhibiting the affairs in his department : in liis books or papers ? — N"o ; [ had nothing whatever to do with that. I declineci positively to have anything to do with the accounts or com- mis.sariat whatever, up to the time when (hey were taken out of \\\s hands. 10947. So far as you know, were requisitions made by yourself and members of the start" general!}' filled within a i-easonable time, so a> not to occasion inconv^enionce or unreasonable delay? — No ; sometimes they were n«)t .satisfactorily filled; there was (considerable comploiiit occasionally as to the things not being to hand on time and not Uiii;,' of the quality that they ought to be. 10948. Was it youi- duty to investigate any sucli complaints ? — When they were brought under my notice I did so. 10949. [ supjjose it was difficult at that period of the settlement of (he country, to got supplies atid other materials through rapidly?— There was considerable difficulty, mkI large allowance had to be made on that account. Sometimes the purveyor was accused by those in the field of not using due y material to be obiained from the cuttings, or from borrowing pits in the neighbourhood, with trestle work. At that time it was thought that the borrow-pits were all earth, becaii.se there was no rock-borrowing contemplated at all, so it was su|)posed to amount to very little. I09ti5. Do you remember what amount of informal ion hail been oliiained by the (iovernmeiit before the tenders for thai last method were invited ? — There was nothing but the longitudinal sections of the line, and a ])Ian of the longitudinal section. loyo't). That line exhibited on the plan is called the profile? — Ves. 109(57. And the plan to which you allude is the location plan ? — Yes; the location plan and the profile along the centre line. 109(i8. The location showing the surface, and the |irotile showing the section? — The location showing the allignment upon the surface, and the profile the section of that allignment. Kl.'coii'u Piir- vi'y«»rHlii|>. R'tilwa.v liOtaa tlon- Cuitli-uc'l .\it. 1.5> In 1S7«, first plana I'OJidy wlii'nco (Itiiiiititics could 1)1' liiid on wlilcli to cull for liiHt, tiMidcrs. Woric to liavn been solid tlirou;,'lif)Ut. ( fnidi' as ;it. prcscnl. None of Ml.' Ilrst luiidors iicct^ptod. Now fend«;rs asked on niUed urndes, Imt no contract let. Froslj tiinli'i's aski'd I'm- '111 still anothiM iiasis. Proillc and locii- Uon tliK-: this alt tin; inforinatiun ijovorniiuMii had bfCorc calling for tenders the thir«l time. 4W* ROWAN 714 tl KMlUvHy I tloii - 4'oitli'net. \'u. 15. Country rough and rocky, with lakes. tiuantltles could not have been approximately, accurately cal- culated without cross-sections. Cros.s-sectlonlng (•otitract l.'> Im- pructlcable. ])eslrahle to get more Inl'ormat ion bct'ore tendering than was had In this contract ; but tliere may have V)een rea- Nons, other than ♦■nKlnoerlng, for pressing on the work. 10I»<>!>. VVliJit w.'M (lio ntitui'c <»f tho country through which ilii- section 15 was to be made ? -Very rough and broken rocl7-<. Hiid the line not been opened for telegraph purposes V—l think not, at that time. No; I atn pretty sui-eit had not — not thoroughly cleared at any rate. The longitu<'"'al section of contract 15 is about tliiity- si.K miles. I think that the cross-.-iCctions that we have made over the lino now, with a view to arrive at the correct quantities, are pi-etly nearly 200 miles. 10975. 8o that they must have been tidarticular case, there may have boon ciriuni- tances with which I, as an engineer, have nothing to do; which may have rendered it expedient tor tho Government to think it desirable to push on the work, without waiting for tho delay vhich would be occu- sioned by the getting of that necessary information. 10979. Uo you mean that the reasons to which you allude would bo other than engineering reasons? — Certainly. 10980. Then there are no engineering reasons whi'-h would make it advisable to lot tho work upon such insufficient information ? — No ; none. *.* " 715 ROW \N allude would bo lO'.tSl. When the contiactoi' Ciimo upon tlio ground, ha I f'ui'lhor data boeii obtained, as t82. You are aware, no doubt, that llio contractors complained that tlit-y wore dehiycd by not lieing able to get all the inlorinatioii that they asked for from the (ioverninent engineers? — Yes; 1 am awaie that thoy made such a claim, but whether it is well founded is another qiiC'^tion. 10083. I am asUing you ju.st now whether you are aware of it ?--Yes. ]t>'.t84. Have you considered carefully whether they arejustitied in making that assertion? — 1 have. lOitSS. What is your conclusion ? — 1 do not think tluy were. 10!>8(>. For what i-easons have you come to tliis conclusion ? — Because, as a matter of fact, they were not delayed by the want ol information tu my knowledge, that 1 can recollect Whenever a contractor asked to have work laid out for him at any particular point, and he was run- ning about from one place to another, wherever it wm easy to do, jiutting the engineers to very great inconvenience, my assistants and siiljordinates alwa^'s went wherever they were asked, although they wore put to a great deal of unnecewsary inconvenience by the vvay this was done. I am further aware that they were asked often, and frc'(iuontly asked, to set out work, and did set out work, where it was not begun after they had sot it out, and that they were obliged to g(» ov<'r and over again setting out work at such points, because the works that the}' had put in were destroyed through lapse of time, and for- tiiiious circumstances. 10987. Do you i-omember whether you gave any special instructions t(i ihe engineer in charge, or any of his assistants, not to furni.-^h partic- uliir kinds of infoi'mation to the contractors ? -Yes, 1 do. That is to say with regard to e.stimates, but not as to anything bearing on the prose- cution of the work. in!i88. Do you mean estimates of work not to be done ? — Xo ; oslimatos of work done. That is to say, what his estimate would amounl In — the value of the work done. lODSf). Did you think that that ought not to be communicatciii ( itlawii mil to tflvp contractors eslliii.'ites or wliiit the Work woidd anioiinl lo. Url^iiial Inten- tion to till voids with trcsth; work, tlie rock from culrtintis and any borrowinu to he had In nel'.'hbuiir* liood to he used. n'-y ROWAN 716 \* llnllwHy (on- MiriK'iion — Coiilinfl So. 15. rirn; V III I'll it h (llsfuviifd. Kdiiic li'iilli ill Wlillilicad's lliiM.r.v Mint, to liiivc fllU'd voids witli trcstleH Wdllld liiivc lllUcil a ciitisldcrHhli' iiiiiiitit'r ol' years. (Iinnuc lo ciii- biiiikiiit'iit ad- Mllltil^t'OIIS ill point III' lliiii'iih widi ns In pnlnl of (ii'rniiiiieiiiie. liut (ri'NtU- waii to Imvc Im'I'Ii put III III NiU'li a mail' HIT iis looki'd to tlii'lr lii'lnn ultl iiiiilidv i'liaiii;r>d to ('inliiiiikiiient. Wltiif'ss explains tku'dimcullyof mnkliit; troRtIf woi'k|ilii'i)nt.'lioitt, lieud — that is to sny, horiowin^' oi ouflh — was oxpdctod to Im viry small iiideod tro»n wliat wo. Unew of tlio coiiritry at that timo. The lialarico of tlie space-* left tluMi, atter taking the rock cMittings toboi-iow what earth wo coidil in thi; iiei;.jhlioiii Imod, wjis to hu made up oftic-stl,! WOl'IC. l0!>9l-{. Was it early in the pi(jgre>s of (lie construction that yun discovered more carlh than sou had expected, oi- w.is it as the work went on that those horiow-pils were developed ?— ji was as the Woik wont on, iind us the metms at our disposal enabled us to make (li«. ciA'ories ; when we had mcin on the /ground — contractors' men— wliuni we could em|)loy to sink te-t ])i(s and make examinations with ti view ti> asiuM'taining- llu; nature of the inatcriiil and the depth, iind then wo discovered that theie was nior(> earth on one spot of the line than wo contempliited on the whole section — thirty-six miles. iOL>!)-i. Mr. Whitehead has sotne theory that it would ho inipossiliK; in a liireal number of veais to have finished the work with trestles in tlio way that w;;s oriin'inally contempliiied, hiK-ause it would have hcfii tio(!essary to till U[) one void with trestle wofk, before begot to anolliei', iind to another excavation beyond thtit, and that he would never have boon able lo get in the rock with reasonabl » ihsspntch for the founda- tion foi'tiie trestles? — Ilhink there iw some truth in that. 10!M)5. It woiikl have been then, in your ju-esont opinion, mtre ditli- cult to hiivo carried (nit the original trestle system than was conlom- jditlcd at first? — 1 think it would, l()I»l)n. Therefore the change to solid earth (anbiinkmont was advan- tageous in point of time as well as in jiointof permaneneo of the work ? — V es. I0!tl)7 I mean the time at which the work would l)0 finished? — Vos. 1 would like lo give a little explanation. Our original instructions us to the way the work was to be carried out, was that the work at ll.e cuttings was lo be placed in the water strotchert so as to form a solid base lor trestle work, broad enough and across the whole water s[)ace, on which to place the trestle work, and to lie at such a level us to kco[) ll.e trestle work out of the water. ](>!)'.>8. Was that to be brotid etiough .so as to hold eventually an eartli cmbaido wide as the one contemplated in the contract ; would you not reipiiie a much wider base for an earth embankment tliiin for trestle woik ?— Yes, lltJUO, Therefore the bsi.se which was ctuitemplated from the' begin- ning was a wider one than would have been required if ti-estlc had been intended to be a pei-manent arrangement? — Yes, 11001. In othoi- words, you wore providing, as far as the ba>e was concerned, for a solid embankment at some limt; ? — At some future date. I Wiis going to give an illustration : To make that base a.s re(]tiii'Oil by the specification it would have been necessary to bring the rock iiol from the cuttings alone immediately adjoining that walbr stretch, Imt from a number of cuttings, and a long way both to the east and west of the paiticular opening that was to be filled— tluit water stretch. In some instances, in fact in most, but in some specially, the quantit} ot rock required to make such a bank would have extended tor a milo, 717 ROWAN t timo. Tho ])i"l»uMy over twu iiiile!->, ol lliu oulliii:^.-? of iho roiul. To do lluit woiiM h.ivo (ici.iyol llio WDi-U, ill tlii . w.iy : iluit tho coniraclor could not. luviin til tiiki! ilm I'ock out of('iiUiiii;s iioxt I'lit. oiio to tho phicc whoro lie \v:i> niukiii;^ iho liuiiU until lie had dune llii' lirst one; iiocauso, if :dl the lock wart to conio from cutlin:^ atlor cuHin;:; aloii^ tho lino to bo ])Ut into this space, he must do the lil•^t cutting next the wsiti r and put it in, and then put in llio nox' and so on until he had cleared "Ut >utlicient i(»ck cutting-- to till up this particular sjiace. To <^o from one cutliu;;; t(i another, the iiitorvonin^ voids must liavo hoen tilled uj) with trestle work. Tllc|•et'o|■ea^ the contractor, instead of workin;^ a nunil)cr o|' eutlinics as ho did suhsoipicntly, ut the same time, it lie had had to do it in thtit way lie could only have worked one cutting at a timo, ono ciUtiiii; on each :-itabli.-«h u good daily newspti per hoi'o, foi- the reason that he felt very much annoyed at, these false reports of tho Free Press, and that he was iiuito willing to assist any competent person who would undertake tho piihlication of a good daily now-'paper bore. UOU. Did you know Mr. Tutllo ? — 1 had met him and kn«w him !>liglilly at that time. SCHULTZ. <;uutra<'t Ain. 15. lIel|iiiiK K<-\vN« I»«|iei'j« — Allt'ifcai liiipro- |iet' liillii<-M«' , 80HULTZ Ooiitrnct So. Iff. ]l«-l|iliiH 1V<'>VH« (iii|ii-rM - U'in-tt iiii|irii« |M-r illlllia' paper, oC coui'Ho, would havo an influonco in publishiii;^ ropoi'ts of the pro^rross of tlie work. I do not think tliat he wasextensively acipiaintcil with Menihorw (»f L'urliatnent, nor would he have much iniliieiico wiiii them. llOlfi. Havo yon any reason to think tliat Mr. Tuttle induced llie assistance from Mr. Whitehead, hy an\' representation that he coiilil irillueiice any one in favour of Mr. VVhitehead ? — I never heard Mr. Whitehead state that ho ailvanccd money to Mr. Tutll* for any such piir|»ose. He always maintained that he Iiad simply paid for the pl.iiii and privis and material, and that he would propose to retain his own ri^lit to it, allowing Tuttle the use of it. I never lieard from .Mr. Whitehead or Mr. TuttU' that there was any lonsideralion ol iiiMucnc- inii' the (lOverTtment in connection with it. 11017. Ilav(> you any other reason to believe so? — ! havo not. llOlH. Have you no reason to believe that the assistance by Mr. Whitehead was t them ? — I know that there was a partnership. ll()2.'i. Do you kncnv how that partnership was brought about ?- 1 do; genoially. Mr. Wliitehead had been in financial dilHcuities. 11024. You mean a partriershi]) in his contriicl on section 15?— Ye-; with Fra.ser A: Grant. Mr. Whitehead was in fimmcial d'lHiMiltics, caused, I believe, l)y the death of the late Senator McDonald, who managed those matters for him. The baidi who had hitherto ad vnnrcii him moneys from montii to month to carry on his work, had suddenly refused to advanctMinything ; and Mr. Whitehead's solicitoi- asked me to see the bank, with a view of stating what I knew generally of the progress of" the work, and to endeavour t(;aiil him ii' re establish- ing the confidence which he would seem to have lost wi h the bunk management. That endeavour was ur)successful, and an oiler from Fraser k Grant, made to Whitehead at that time, seemed the on I}' way in whi(di he could go on with the contract at all, and after .some con- sideration of it, it was accepted. 11025. You were present, I understood Mr. Whitehead to say, at the time that the negotiation was finally concluded?- Yes; .Vlr.VV^hitelicirl'' solicitor appealofi to myself and to Mr. Brown, of the Ontario I3aiik, to 'ID SCHULTZ liny iiirtiuHiic houtl upon til.' iXCOpt tllilt lliw ; roports of lln' volyaciiuuiiitcil iuiluonco with tlo inilucod \\w \ that ho toiil.l lovor heurtl Mr. « tor any >ucii iiid for the planl retain his own hi'aifl iVom Mr. [Viioii ol iiilluoin'- 1 have not. ijiHistant'C hy Mr. 3s.sed or iinpHod, 10 niemherrt of it ? know myself, "f eireuhiteii?— Ye^; ivourcd tocotinoil o.Hsion is that Sir I) the moon, heliovo there i- II" rnioi!; Mr. W'lutu- eoimeetion with ratit, or either of ll.rought uhoiit ?- lial (lilficullies. section 15?— Yes liincial ci'(HiMiltii!s, [r Me Donald, wli" hitherto advaiin'd iorU, had suddenly Isolicitor a-ortion of the contract ntilil those ondeavonrs vveic! unsiie- (cssfnl ; hut meotinix in the manager's olHco of the Ontario Uiirdi, hi^ jiiiiids had to tell Mr. Whilelmad that tliero .>-eem(Ml no help for it hat t(i make soint; linain-ial ai'riui^«'inonls witli I'^iioer i\: (inint,oi- with some |ior.- having to appeal constantly to the ^Joveinment for iiilvances. 1.02^. Do you know of any >uggestion8, either directly or indirectly, to Mr. Whitehead that a partnership with Frascr iV (Jrant, or either of them, was d,>ired hy the Minister of Railways? — 1 do not. lll)2!>. Do you know whether Mr. Whitehead was led to thiidi this, iiiid that that assisted in accomjjlishing the partnershi|» in any way ? - I do not know that he was, and I do not believe that he was. i believe that it was purely the force of necessity that made it. It was the u'f'nsal of the baid< to advance the money that was the cause of the ariaiigoment. 110;iO. Ale 3'ou aware of any rumour that Mr. Whitehead was com- liL'llcd to complete this pai-tnership out of deference to the wishes of any one of the Cabinet ? — Tic l-'.riiiituj ■Journal of this city has constantly :is.>i(xiated the Minister oi If.dlways with a disposition to force Mr. Whitehead into a connection with Fraser \ (rrant ; but with the I'xception of that, I have not heaid any rumour fi'om any respectable source. 11031. What is your o])inion as to there being any foundation for >iich a rumour? — 'rhere is none whatever. 1 .say that, because Mr. Whitehead, during the Session at Ottawa, repeatedly requested myseff ;tnd the other Men\bers of the Commons from Manitoba to einleavotir lo assHist him in pi'ocuring, from the Minister of Railways, conce>sions \\\ the way of advances on his plant, and secui-ity offered in that way. I have frequently accompanied deputations (consisting, on many occasions, of all the Manitoba Members of the House of Commons, and Soimtors, with Mr. Whitehead to endeavour to aid him, simply because he had, l'oiitiH«-l \n* l.'i. FiRHt-r A' (•rniit- Wlill. lit nlil(i. MliiistiT 111' Hull- ways toM Willi.-. hiMid that the (iovt'rnniciil hail (■(iiitldciii'i' ni liliii as a coiiinictor bill not as a flnaii- ch T. No ft'RSOIl to ijcllnvc that u ptirtnfi'8ni)i hu- Iwccn WlilUdioiid and Kniser A- (iratit wa.sdosiriMl hy Mlnlstci-. Dock not hidlevc aiivbodv led WhllPhPiid to lliliikorMils. No t'uundiitlon wliHt^n'i'rforsiK'li a I'uiiioiir. 80HULTZ Contrni t So. 15. KriiN« I'aft fJiiilil- PnrtiM>rMlil|>. llt'lliill;; !%'!'«% •l- |lu■H-l'lt~ AlltK'i'«l iiiipift- |><>r iiitliK-iif'c. Knilwny l.«tcM> Hon — Ii<«l Hixvw CroMNiniCt illleKrd iiiiprn- |ier tuUutfiicc, KnowKof no Member of Par- liament but hlni- Keif wliu has land near crossing, anil his Intorost act|Ulred sub>>e- (juently to the (Itviislon. Not awaro that any engineer has an Interest there. Bannatyno's in- terest nequlred about the Kiime time ns liis own. IVotn tlu' vpcy lit ', liclpoil tlii-^ Provinoe V(M*y much io tlio oinploymoii i o| |.il»)tii' locully Imfo, titid tlic piifclui-^o ot Jilinost liis on'i''() ^mpplir, : (li«) ••iiy. He sCMfcoly iiiipofti'd iitiylliiiij^^ lu)i\', tirvl this v\ms m i^j-otit ivlv.ifi.i tii^o to this city ; so that nil tlm Matiilohii pooplo vvniiM ii-lp .is innctij ll^ they ('.(Mill. Oil Ih'iso occiisions. Sif (.'hir-los 'I'lippoi- ii>^Ufoii us th, il wa-t wcnit'oly lU't't-ssjiiy to do this; ih it .Mr. Whitcdniiil stoo 1 a Iiiijli lis hi' pos.silily coiilil .'is ii coiitiaciof. with tho D 'piftnu'iii, ;ii,i| tho only dilliciilty witfi hitii wiis thai, iiiit'oi'iiiniitidy, iu) coiilil iimiI niiiniii^c ills tirijiiifiul untitigoiniMiis. ll*i;{'.!. A witiiosH, yoslofday, in spoiUiif^f ol'the ii".i.-.lar'Ct5 which Mr VVliili'hciid i^tivo to .\If. Tiilflc, iind oflhc ni )iivos whi(di led to it, iiicni ti(»;iol y')ui' titimc as oik; who would likely Ijo tihlo to show that it \vi«l iiol tof tho I'otisoii lluit ho wished to a-sot him mi!i(dya> a iiowsp;i|it,'rl pi'oprictof, hill that thci'o was somo othof motivo which had led loii.f np(»ii ('oiisidei'iiiij tho uialtoi' '.'ai'ofiilly, liavo you now any iiiformil lion upon that Hiiiijocl to i^ivi^ iim whi(di you have nol Ljivon iis? — Ni I h.avo no rotison \o holicvo that Mf. VVhiUdioad iis.i-.tol Mr. Tutu IVom iiiiy other motive, oxeopt to (istahlish ii nowsp:ipcw. and that li did HO bocaiisc Mf. Tntllo was fcpnled to ho ati oxpofioncod pctraoii i', thoHc maltei's ; fairly skilkMJ in sill do|)arlinents of no\vs|)aper work] tind tho piibiishor of sovond HUOcoHsful hooks, and apparontly fiiitiild' lor tho oltjoct ho had in view. ll()3y. 1 boliovo you aro the holder of a t'on>«idorahlo ([uantily nj hind iti tiiid about this neighotirhood ? — I am. 11034. Also ul)out Selkirk ?— 1 am. 11035. Aro you aware of any Membor of Pariiatnont or tiny ongiia'cr being intorosted in tho location of the crossing about the time or befoiv tho time it was wettled upon, .«o as to influence the deciHion of any onel who had the power to decide it V — I know of no Member of ParliainonM except myself, and my interest was acquired in the lands that I have there, sut.scquent to the time that the decision was made ior tin crossing. 11036. As to engineers, aro you aware of any of them havinjifai!! interest? — 1 lieard tho rumour at the time, but lam not aware that anyj engineer hiis any largo iiitei'ost there, or iiideeid an}' interest at nil. 11037. You aro aware probably that the po.ssiliilit}- of such a lliin;'| hits been discussed frequently? — Yes. 11038. It is a mjtlter of some interest, and wo wish to ascertaii whether there was any foundation foi' such an idea: have you aiivl information on the subject which you think would en'iuhton us? — Xo; 1 have not. I was in the way, wIumi puichaHing 'he pioDorty which I own, which was bought on the 20rii .)uiio, 1875, to know other lotsinj the neighbourhood that had beoti bought, out Jit that lime. No engineer name coftiiinly appeared in the rogisti-y (.tiice at that time, nor duliiiiyj name appetir which would lead mo to .suspect that tho rumours thenl current were true. 11039. Besides wh;tt was .shown by the registry there may have booiij titles which were not exhibited but which existed by vii'iue of soiiicj secret arrangement ; are you aware ot Jiiiy mtUt-jr of thai kind? — Nu, I am not. 1 made a little misltike. Mr. Bannatyne is another Moinberl of Parliament who owned land in that vicinity, besides my.se If, and 1| vn SOHULTZ thiiiU Hunii;ityno'is iiitorost was ucquiro I ubaiit tlio Humo timo us my own — subsotjiiont to tlio osliiblislimonl of Iho crossing. IIOIO. Flail yo;i any mo;ir\s of nsiHM'l'iMiin:^ l>of)io olliors that tlio cl•o^isin^ \Vi>ukl bo lixoJ at that phico ? — N *. lion. Arc y(ni awnre that any other )>ei'son liad, oilhoi- from tho l)o])artmont, diroclly or imliroctly, so as to i»ivo thotn an aclvanta,:^o (Acr tlio gonoral puldli- ? — I do not know that any person had any information; I am doubtful if they had, bocaiiso mwt of (lio property wm acijuirod about tho same timo as 1 nc(|uircd mino, whicli, as 1 said, was subsoquont to tho detormiiiation of tho (iovernmcnt to cross thoro. 11012. Is thoro an}- other matter eonnected with tho Paeific Railway, directly or indiroetly, which you tliir'k would assist us in our invost- i'jiation and which you couKl communicuto ? — I do not think of any- Jimt,' at this moment. RuiUvay fiOrM* tlou- KctI Nivrr t'roNallilK. All«>u*'il liii|irn« |M-r liilliivii<-r. Ah far nn Iw knows ii(>l)i)i|y hull liny iiii'iiimof kiKiwiiii; iu'lori!- Imml wIktc croHS* liiu WDiitil he. Most of till' |iro- pcrly iici|iUrc(l Kiihsi'nui'nl. to Iho (li-tcrinlniitloti ity of such a thing at time, nor tin It tho i-umours Ihoro may havo been I by virtue of soukJ y\h-\i kind?-N< ' iiinMlfr-nud- I>iii-vc>'orHlil|i li'nrt Kr»ii<-rit I.otk. WAt.TER R. Buw.N, sNvoin and examined; BOWN, 1)1/ the Chiiinnan : — 1 10-43. Whei'o do you live ? — In Winnipot;. ,1041. How long have you lived here? — I think 1 have lived hero ■^ivtrru or seventeen years. 11045. Have you had any connection, on your own account, with matters connected with tho Pacific Railway ? — Only an investigation. 1 1046. What was tho nature of tliat investigation ? — To make enquiries Connooiori wuh into tho Ni\on accounts, and into Mr. Sutlierland's affairs at tho Fort lllio N'LNon'"an.i Fiances Locks. .smhfriini.i'- accounts. 11047. What wore tho powers given to you? — To take evidence without swearing tho witnesses. 11043. Was it known in the community that such an investigation wa-^ going on ? — Yes. 11049. It was not a secret investigatio.j ?— It was a private investi- giition, 11050. But it was not secret ; it was ui.Jerstood in tho communitj- ? —It was understood among the community. 11051. There were no regular sittings? — No; there were certain (barges made, and the investigation was made to see if thero was any truth in the charges made against certain individuals. 11053. Did you obtain any information on that subject? — I did. 11053. l)id you communicate it to any one? — None, except tho information Government. communicued to 11054. In writing? — In writing. 11055. Was it considered to be a confidential communication ? — Yo.>). 11056. Have you had any other connection with Pacific Eailway matters ?— No. 11057. Your name was mentioned yesterday as a person likely to throw some light on the motives of Mr. Whitehead in assisting Mr. 46 the Government. 'J BOWN 72 29, '■:::m'--:m V''-' Contract No. 1(1. Helping Kewa> paper*. Knows nothing ofWlUeheail's Idea lu asslslhiK Tuttlo Hiivo whiit he heard from Dr. .Scbultz. Never hoard timt Tuttlecould assist Whlt«head with the Government or any member of It. Tuttle : have jdu any intoimalion on that subject that you can com- nmnicato to us? — 1 do noi know Mr. \Vhitohou(r.s idea in eiigaifiii institution that his lien upon it would be Mitlicient security for his investment. 11091. It has been suggested to tho Commipsionei-s that there was a motive beyond that operating on his mind and leading him to ad in 46^ <'oiilract No. 1.5. |>l>|t<-rKa Interested in timii from si art to l:!tli .Iiiiiuiiry, Wlilteliead Ije- caiiie rcHponslble for pluiit uiiiJ stock for Hturting paper sef-urliiK iiimsclf by Ucu. Negotiation took plaee at Ottawa. No InllniPie ac- ((naintiiiK'e wttd any Minister o! tlie Crown. Nor influence with Ministers. Nor (lid he lend Wlilteliead to un- ilerstand he htttl. Whlteliead led to hellevet.'iatpHjHir nilKlit he :nade a valuable Inslltvj- tlon. k lip ■. i TUTTLE 724 fi; :■ **^' Contract Kom 15. Helping Me^vsB pnpers. Whitehead never could have thought that Tuttle personully littd any liiHueiice Humours tliat Whitolicad had assisted hlin he- cause of Inrtuenec with the fiovt-rn- ment absolutely false. tho way ho did, because ho mi^ht ^ain homo advantage, either tiiioiijrh your influence or the iiifluonce of some of your friends upon tlie Government : can you say as to the truth of this? — I know notiiing of any such motive, and I do not thinic that Mr. Whitehead ever acted (jii that idea in any connection, except ho may have thought tho paper would bo of value to hill hilt, as iiir as I am concerned personally, I am sure he never though i so. 11092. Had ho not some reason to believe that you. or your friends w(Hild bo able to influence tho Crovernment in his favour, and would do so because of assistance to you ? — No. 11093. Arc you aware that such a rumour has bctMi circulated?—! have seen articles to that ed'ect in the Ulohe, ot Toronto, and, 1 think, in the Free Press, of Winnipeg. 11094. What do you say as to tlio foundation of these rumours .'_ That they aie absolutely false ; there is no foundation for them. 11095. Is there any other nialterconnectod with the Pacitic liuilway ii))on which j'ou can give us information to help us in our investiga- tion? — I know of nothing. BANNATYNE. Andukw G. B. Bann.vtyne, sworn and examined ; Rpd River Crodsliijf— All<-f(eil iiiipro- per iiitliii-iii'f . Kg reason to think that cross- Inir at Selkirk selected because of Influence con- nected with any Interest In lancf. Never heard rumours regard- Ins motives of Whitehead for asslstinK Tuttle from a quarter in which he could place any depen- dence. By the. Chairman : — HOPS. Where do you live?— In Winnipeg. 11097. How long have you lived here? — Going on thirty-iliiiv years. 11098. Have you had any connection with any mutter pertaining lo the Pacific Kailway ?— No. 11099. Are }'ou the owner of consideiaMe property in the neiglil))ur hood of Selkirk ? — I am : of a good deal. 11100. Are you able to eay whether the ownership of any propcrtv, by any one either expressed upon tho registry or otherwise, influeiict-d tho deci.iion of the locality for the crossing at Selkirk? — No. lUOI. Are you aware of any Member of Parliament or engineor being interested, so as to influence the decision ? — I cannot, unli's^ Dr. Schult/. might own a little property around me; wo hiive piv- perty all over the country, whoro we meet together. I think we ol'ioii meet jit every municipality in the countiy. 11102. Are you aware of a discussion or rumour as to tho subject of the locality of the crossing being selected in consequence of the owner Bhip of lands by any one ? — No. 11103. Ilavo you any reason to think that it was in any way influenced by any interest in land? — I have never seen anything to make mo think bo. 11104. Do vou know anything of the matter between Mr. Whitehead and Mr. Tuttle, of the aBsisUnce that was given, or the reasons for it? — Nothing at all ; 1 have heard rumours, but from no source that I could place any dependence apon. 7-'5 BANNATYNE oil lliirtv-tliitv Red Wlvfir 11105. As to the partnership botwoon Mr. Whitehead and Grant and ^"e'r^uJoVieKcc'. Frascr, have you any information?—! know nothing at all except rumours . lllOG. There was a transaction between you and Mr. Nixon about jiome land at one time while he was purveyor? — Yes. 11107. Do you remember the price of the land ?— There were two transactions I think about land. There was one here, where he wished to j>ut a Temperance Hall ; I sold to him and others. 11108. Thf.' iroperty did not affect the Pacific Railway ; there was iinother piece of land rented for the purposes of the Pacific Railway ? —I h any transaction with him. J had a manager, and I left it all to him. '^'■''""• I never spoke to Mr. Nixon about per cent, or anything else. 11113. Was the price of this land affected by the fact that ho was Pii

rs si'allercd about. 11123. Did you hear any noise at the time? — T did, buti did not hoai' it first; my wife heard it first and she called my attention to it, atnl ! went down stairs thinking that it might be on our fiat. We occi!]iv two flats more. Mr. Nixon and Mr. Rowan occupied the first fiat, an i we occupied the second and third. We sleep on the third fiat, and im wife heard some noise; thinking it was down on the second fiat in oiii own apartment, 1 got up and went down stairs, but did not find ;iii\ thing unusual and wont back again to bed, but afierwards heard ita<^iuii, and 1 went down again, and being satisfied that is was not on our own flat, I went down stairs and went into the pas.-^agc. Thei-e is a passage behind the oftico of Mr. Nixon. 1 listened there and hoard fool,ste)b in Mr. Nixon's office. I wont round behind the Imilding through anotlni entrance to see if there was any light in Mr. Nixon's office, but I did not see any light. At the same time I knew I heard footsteps in Mr Nixon's office. So 1 wont up stairs and called my son to go down witli me, and when he came down I told him he should watch the windov, on the side of the house, and I went through the front door. While 1 stood at the front door I hoard footsteps in tl 'joffi(!e near the door, :.'iii was certain thero was somebody inside. Still thore vvas wo light iliorc So I told my son he should go over and call Jacob Smith who lives iie.x' door to us and call him to come out, as ho was one of Mr. Rowan .^ draughtsmen. My son went (o call him up and I remained near thi' corner of the building, watching both the entrances and at the saino time the window. While I stood at the corner of the building a nian opened the front door and ran out across the street on tho crossing:. Afterwards tny son went t; call Mr. Currie, Mr. Nixon's clerk, at ikv. time. lie went to the hole whore ho was boarding. Wo entorod tiif building immediately after Mr. Smith came. Wodid not enter it bctoii, and wo found that a numboi" of papers were distributed on the tloui. and books and a screw-driver, and a general ransacking amongst tin' papers; and afterwards wo sent for Mr. Currie, and he eamo along an I locked tho rooms again. MV 727 HESPELER milding, which 3?— Yee; 1 am ' the engineers th theMouiiteii to the Paeitii' building beiiii'- .at time?— Yos; ? — Mr. Nix(iii\ m my dwcllin;:, into? — As near n the moniiii:,', lit I did not hex: ition lo it, ami ! 1at. Wo oecii]iy ho tirst thit, an I lird flat, and my econd flat in our id not find any Is heard it au;:iiii, not on our own ere is a passage lioard footstt')!' til rough anollic^ office, but I dill footstop.s in Mr, to go down will! atch the wiixlov. t door. While 1 3ar tlie door, i.'ni IS no light ihori'. i» who lives nex' of Mr. Jtowan- niained near th.' and at the s;iiii: 3 building a niiin an the crossitifr. n's clerk, al ih:\' We entered tiio »t enter it hel'orc. ed on tlie Hour. ing amongst thi' eamo along anl Nixon's Pay- luHDter-and- 11129. Do you think that the person who was in the building was ,p^,',',y;.'j.>'|'J'_"'''«» disturbed by the movements of yourself and you i- son ? — I think so; I with papeM, think the person was disturbed by our movements. 11130. Then is it your opinion that he had comj)leted the work that Thinks i.ursiin- ho had intended, or that he was obliged to leave it?— I rather think he I.Tl/isto^kl'"'^'" was obliged to leave it. 11131. I suppose you cannot say to what extent the papers were disturbed? — No; 1 have no knowledge of what had been previously there. 11132. Did you call out to the person as lie went away ?— I do not recollect that 1 did, but the person that ran out mentioned something which I could not distinguish what he meant; at least 1 heard a sound as he ran out. 11133. Do you think he was speaking? — Yes; he was calling out some words, or some sentence. 11134. Do you know who it was? — No; I have not the .•slightest idea. No i' (iovcrnim'tit Ii.'kI Miivtliiii^' lo do Willi It. 1. 1 .11 npn m' , « G. BROWN 728 rontrnctKo. 15. Helping News* p«pei'8. Whitehead saia Ik* vvimted n jtapor which wtjulil give lilm talr play, as thu Free Pre. is Jiad killed the same man three or lour limes. Whilfhcad rc- jieaiedly siild lie was not fairly • ioalt with liy tln' Fne J'rexs. Ant's*'*' iiiipro- pvr li>lliit-U(-('< Of course T am t»pealt- ance to Mr. Tuttle might influence some Member of Parliament or .some member of the Government, in favour of Mr. Whitehead uj)on tin matter of his contra(;t? — I never heaid him say so directly or imli rcctly. 11146. Have you licard Mr. Tuttle saj;- so? — If 1 did it would go in one car and out of the other. I never remember what ho said. Tliort is no doubt at all, from his conversation, that he would have every member of the Government at his beck and call. 11147. Did Mr. Tuttle say anything in that direction? — No, not that I can remember; and Mr. Whitehead was very guardeii in anything he said in a case like that. 11148. Still we wish to ast-ertain what was said ?— I do not re- member. 11119. Do you know whether Mr. Tultle's representation that he could influence any member or members of tho Government was in any way tho cause of the assistance given by Mr. V hitehead to liini,^ — I never heard the reason — Mr. Whitehead's, reason for giving as.'?i>i- anco to Mr. Tuttlo. 11150. Ilavo you any other means of knowing why Mr. Whitofiead was induced to give this assistance, except what you havo heard tVoiii Mr. Tullle or Mr. Whitehead? — No. t)nly tho rumours about tlie town. 1 did not know anything. \ could not .swear to it. 11151. Is there any other matter connected with any of the contiact."', or pertaining in any way to tho railway, on wl ich you could giv( I'.s infoi niation to help us in the investigation ? — That is a pretty broaJ question. 11152. It is in earnest? — I know; but it is a pretty broad one. Mr. Whitehead and I were alwaj^s very grejit fj ionds, and I havo heard so much of it, and 3'et there is really no point that I can give. 1 know u great deal about the road, us it was going en, but 1 think there is nothing of importance. 11153. Have you over understood from liim that any of his transnr- tion?* were with tho object uf getting foino advantages from tho Gov- 729 G. BROWN , from runiDUi', rc'i iumsolt iioi ion? — No, iiDi trniiient, more than ho would bo entitled to as a matter of right? — Xo, certainly not ; everything ho did was for the purpose of facili- tating matters as much as possible with all parties interested. He has been fighting, as you know, with the engineers ever since ho lommenoed, and the engineers have been fighting him, and everything that could be done to f'acilitato matters, 1 think he always did. 11154. Arc; yoii aware of atiy transaction on his part with the nlijtct of obtaining an undue advantage, or which had the oHoct of jiving him ar.j undue advantage ? — Xo ; none at all. 11155. When you speak of his desire to facilitate matters, what iiijiltorsdo you allude to? — Well, one matter was the dispute bHtwoen himself and the engineers about the loose rock. He, ofcour.se, thought ihat he had boon very hardly dealt with in that matter, and, from my i.wn business relations with Mr. Whitehead, I know that every ob.stacle ■.oemod to be placed in his wa}^ in getting through his work. It was a ri!j;lit cveiy month about his estimate-'. lie never could get anything ime properly. It hcems to mo there seemed to be a hitch in every- thing. 11156. What matters do you say he alluded to when you say ho wished to facilitate matters? — His loose rock and rock questions, the ;ie question, and the matter of getting his estimates earlier. 11157. When you speak of quosiions, do you mean to say to facilitate ;he settlement of the questions ? — No; but every month there was always something cropping up — either a reduction in the estimate from what his engineers said it was, or there was always a tight going on. 11158. What was there ho was endeavou ! ig to facilitate or hasten ? — Ti) get those things in an ordinary proper form. His engineers vciiild niako their measurements and return thorn to him ; then they would never know what would be in Ottawa. 11159. Do you mean the money that he was entitled to ? — Yes. 1116^. Then it was the receipt of the money that he wished to iiasten ? — Yes. llKil. What do you understand that ho did in order to accomplish hat? — lie did anything in his power that ho ccnild. 111(52. In what way? — To facilitate matters both for the engineers — Ut course they are the tJovernment, or (Jovernmot»t servants. 11163. Do you think he gave the money to Mr. Tattle to facilitate his estimates? — No. 11164. I asked you if you knew any of tiis transactions were for the pm-pose of obtaining any undue advantage, and you say it was for the purpose of facilitating matters? — Of his actions, afterwards and before, 10 facilitate matters and try to get his work done. 11165. Do you mean that getting the work done was facilitating the mutters that you allude to V — In getting his monthly tstimates. Ho -pared no trouble. 11166. Do you mean getting the amount of his monthly estimates ? ; — i'es. 11167. You see a contractor may do a great deal to facilitate the siting of the amounts of his estimates, when he ought not to got CoiitrnotNo. l.V AllrKC4l impro- per Influence* Awnro of no triuisiu-tlon or Wliltcheuirsalm- Ine; lit ivn undue udvantiiRc, or liy which this Wii.-i ()btuini!(l. Whitehead seem- ed "'onRtantl.v to have some diffi- culty to cuntfiUil against. Never would know what money he was entitled to at Ottawa. Did not give money to Tuttb,- to facilitate hlR estimates. G. BROWN 730 v'- , :;v; 4;«ntr«vtl«tt. 15. Alleged liiipro- per iMiiiiiucc. tliom, anil I want to unfterstan'l what 3'ou mean l»y that rcniiii k ?— iVhitoii.ad His eni^incers, ho alwavs said iiiniscK: — he thoiii^ht bimMeH' that theiV' tuiii amount <>t was a Certain amount kept back troin hnn ana rediictions made m hh *rnnTrIiVor?v*'koi)"*' owtimatCH which wore wron^, and his en^^inoors ihougiii so too. ^.a--ed L«-Krnpli~ <'oiiNtrii('ltoi). C'oiitrni'l Alt. I . Ki'porl on (lio Varrows. .Ja.mes H. Rowan's examination continued the report to which you alliiir i^^'poction of the route tlirmi:; 1 produce it. (i'lxhibit No. im; NdIIiIik; to prr- xcnt line from 'it'inK innlnlalnetl hi fair wr)rklnK oiiliT hnil tilt' ■.■onstnicMon bfcn properly dono In llrsl InNtMHco. Had snu'ifCHtcil that .soiuo one should havo liccn Mppolntt'd to ••upcr Intend < I'pctlon. It liclnt; linpossl- l)l<' for wItncxM to do more llian make a Krfiicral liiNpi'ctlon. » 'ontraclor tiavltiK to main- tain lln(! tor tlvn ywirN tliouKlil a *ul!lcl(Mil Kuaran- ti'c that work would I done Mfll. fii/ the Clutinnan : — 11173. Can you produce a copy of yesterday, and which refers to your the Nanows of Lake Manitobii? — Yes You asked me, yesterday: " w^re the suggestions in reteienco to th. construction of telegraph by Sifton, Glass k Co., in writing.'— tL;.: i-t, when I spoke about the inspectiofi of tho telegraph line built, In Clifton, GUus & Co.— and I said that I thought an inspector should hav been along over the work at the time it was being built ; ami ym asked me had 1 made tli;!i rocommendiUion in writing. I said 1 thought so ; but 1 was not sure. I have since looked up the niiiltir and 1 tind it was in writing. 11174. About what date?— The !tth .Jiiii", 1877. I refer to mv jetlor- book and i-ead the following extract from that report, a cop}- ot wiiicii is on tile in the Engineers otti'-o : — " To siini up t'tip whole I may sny tliat. with the exoeption of thrfe points, Du: Lake, the Narrows, and day vi Lake Maiiitolja, Crom which a sjiecial agreenietit Wh-, I believe [I have not been ollicially a. tified on the fact] made through M. Klt'inii)': tiiere is nothing which sliould prevent a line from beinj? maintained in fair workitt* order, if proper jirecautions had been taken by the contractor iq ita con3iriictio:i That that has not ln-en done cannot be denied, and the consequence is he iiiis be ^ put to great expense for repairs and maintenance ; and the result is, I believe, tbi;- two items have already cost him almost as much as putting up the line a secoii'i time throughout its whole length, while the freijuent interruptions in the work bsf also been a loss to him and an inconvenience to the jniblic. In making lhe.s<' l■e^lllr^■ it would seem as if I were passing a censure upon myself for not having seen liini il' work was properly done. In reply to this, I beg leave to submit the folio" itip re- marks which will, I am sure, lie gubslantiate.J by Mr Fleming. When this work w:i^ about to be commenced, I suggested that some one should be appointed to sniieri:.- 1 tend the erection, and accompany the coeitractors' men to see that the poU'J *'«'* I stink a sufficient depth in the ground, and properly secured, and the joints in il wiH properly made, it being im)i08sible for me to more than make a general inspection oM the woik, and attend tu my other duties ; the more ao as from the unsettled couDtr through which the line passes a considerable length of time would be requiredto make the journey. It was considered, however, that such an officer would not U 731 ROWAN that remark?— imHclC that tliciv ions made in lu- ll rto too. the ( Jovcrnmeiii 18 due to him ?— laa .s was dirocloi't .'rod ut tho lim- tisr of tlic kini i vantage. Lly or imlirectly )U fould «;ive 11- is time ? — ^ <■>. f liis iiM'i.ir- lliiii which you allinini Itho route tlinni;;!, Kxhibit No. W retei eiico to th': ti writing."— tliii' ph line iiuillbv loc'tor should liav. i)g built; ami yi ,\'riling. 1 ^s'''' ' ed up tho miitlii. refer to m.v lette:- L, a co[)y <>t wliici; of thrt'e points, D ;.- iiecial aRreenienl Wh-. ihrouKh M. Kli'inm. Rined in fair workiu' ir in its conjtructioii iiience is he Ima In"-' uU is, I believe, tb--- ip tiio line a secon'i ions ia the work hnv making the.s.- lenmrj-: il having seen tlmtll': imit the foUo\Mn|r r-^- When tliis worii wi- mpoinled to silken:.- lUt the poU'J «'«f* idthe joints in it wnH , general inspection.. the unsettled coudu;- would be required M officer would not t« ' Bnll%vMv Coa> NtriK-don— r.ecessaf). from the fact that the contractor had to maintain the line for live years, a *-'»"*•'»•■* ' A. 'iict wliicii was thougiit to be a sufTicicnt guarantee that they would in their own .nterest take pains to put it rip in a substantial manner.' In reply to the (luestion you asked me yesterday, as to whether r'"*"'"*'""'' r,''"'; 1 had furnished Mr. Fleming with any ostimato of tho j)i'ol)ablo (.rproimbi.- cost ,.)st of the northern extension ot tho Pembina Branch, 1 bog to "i,",'',';r'iv^lMna joply that I did. and it was communicated to Mr. SmoUie, in Unmcii. Mr, Fleming's office, in a lottt r dated Ifith July, 1B77. You asked lie, yesterday, to j)roduco tho contract with tho North-Wost Trans- ''j^Ji'"'^' '"^ jiortation Co. for tho transport of rails. Tho first communication p,.,„i,„.,,m,„por.s 1 had on that subject was a letter from Mr, Burpee, dated 25th Juno, nskeu iv.i. 1S75, son(Ji ng mo a copy of documents relating to tho transport of steel mils, delivery and storage, which I now produce, together with tho lettci'. (Inhibit No. 107.) Further, on tho lOLh May, 1«7G, 1 received a letter from the Secretary of the IVpartment of Public Works, enclosing me an ■ ifirial co])y of tho santo document. I was asked for plans and profiles of i'ios>* Lake trial lines. These are being prepared, and I will have them lealyloryou to niglit. I was(iuestioned,yesterday, about the co^npletion Haiiwa.r ton- (t tho eastern i)ortion of contract 14 by Mr. Whitehead, and an agreement r.,'!'I'"."'„'.'g"J~ ,a made between liim and Mr. oifton, which was to be sub)ect to tho approval (if llio Minister of I'ublic Works. I then stated what, from my recol- iection, I believed to bo tho purport of that agreement, whatever any written document might say to the contrary. I now produce papers Pnxiiu's piip«'ri whic'li, to my mind, soems to confirm the view I then took. These pfJiJl!,'.'",!!,"'; ,','''* ''*'' puiiors are marked A, li, and C, and wore placed in my hauls by the unr.'.'m.'nt i).- uting hiigitioer-in-lyliiel, at tho time that the transaction took place. wiiit.'ii.'Md. A is a letter from Sifton, Ward iV Co. to m)iself respecting the con- tract with Mr. Whitehead, and dated the 13lh September, 1878. B is tho agreement between Messrs. Sifton, Ward «t Co., pro])erly «i:;ncd antl witnessed, and bearing date the 13lh September, 187S. The 'hird, C, is a letter from Mr. Fnmcis J. Lynch, dated Winnipeg, Sep- tember, 1878, addres.scd to Messrs. Sifton, Ward & Co., and show- iiij; them tho respective costs of doing the work in different ways. I will now hand those papers in, if re(j[uired, and I think an inspection of thom will confirm the view that I took as to what tho niiture of the liu'roornent was. 11175. Thoy will not bo ro]uired at present. If wanted you can send ''J',*!'*^*' '-'"*" ihem by mail to Ottawa. D) you romenber whether a lino considera- ('»iiiiaelicd of i''"/' ^"''"' '^^\ ,. . , ' 1 si'dliiii 1.1 mule uie portion ho run. by Cuiif. 11177. Bid that come under your inspe^'tion? — Yes. 11178. l)id you consider it a favourable line? — In soiiu rc-n— Cniili-art* ffout 11 and ISi J.inr iiortli nf I<«lt tliroiit;li Nariows (Ixcd on : tiC'Mot H would liMiKllifli line. I, Inn HOutli of I.aki! Manlloha would prohalily luivf niad(; the line Houlh ol pre- srnl colli ract i.'i t'lMiNllilc and th(- wIioIh line C'li«a|n'r. When coinnarl- Non IlKll to 1)0 inacU' the I'liolcc was no longer a pure cntilnecrlng qUl'Ntloil. One of the prin- cipal rcasonH for not ndo|)tinu: Carre's south line was that work had Kono too far on contract ii. Carre's line would have lenKthoned line by nventlleB. 732 contract 15, it was thou/^ht \>y tho Chief Kii/^iiieer, who wont into li,,. muttoi* very fully with myself, that no saving would bo ctt'octcd if «,. had to abandon tho work already done upon contract 14, what \vou!i| have boon necessitated by tho currying out of that line. Its iticieuscl Icngtii. and tho cost of nnaUing that increased length and oporatini' i; for all time to como — these and other similar matters which wore givui; \iiry full considoration by the Chief Kngineer and myself, b'd him t., concludo that it was better to adhere to the present lino at that lim,. than to atlcmpt to maUe a change. 11182. I believe that considoi'jition was aftoi the line throui,'h tii. Narrows of Jiiiko Manitoba had been settled upon? — Yes; that is wh;,, I mean b}' stating it would have increased the length of the gcinM;il line, and taken it out ot tho direction it was desirable to follow. 11183. Had the lino as tii-st projected, that is south of Lake Mjuiitoii;i been aiioplcd, would it have been jjossiblo to liavo made this south lii,,. of Mr. Carre's work in with it, and on the whole diminish the costoftli,. railway? — I think it is quite probable it would, if that had been (iic lino (iist struck upon when tho surveys were started. 11184. What I mean is (his : if, before tho Government had bwii commilcd to any expenditure, there had been tho choice of the two routes from Uat Portage, one by the present line to Selkirk and tliemc northward or north-westerly across the Narrows of Lake Manitoba, and tho other the southern line from Rat Portage as surveyed by Mr. Canv, cros« not necessary or requisite to go into the question, in tho light \\l)irli you have j)ut it, at that time. 11187. Assuming that tho frovornmcnl was committed to the crossing at Selkirk, and that no expenditure had boon made east of ]?ed Jliver on contract 14, would tho south lino run by Mr. Cano and joining in with tho present routo somowhore upon 14, have beoii ;i more favourable lino than tho one now adopted over 14 and 15?— I am hardly prepared to say whothor it was or not. 11188. Do yon think that tho principal reason for not adopting tlio southern lino of Mr. Carre's was that tho work had gone too far on tho lino of 14 as then under contract? — I think that was one of the leading reasons. 11189. Do you remember any other reason or consequence?— One I have mentioned — the length of tho line and the cost of maintcnaiico for all time to come. 11190. Do you know by how much that would have lengthened tlm line? — I think, if my memory serves mo right, something about five miles. (33 ROWAN lllDl. Is Ihoro any inulo of cahnilatii)^' Iho probablo lUdDing \|K'ii-o of the ruad ? — Vos. 111!*::!. Wlnt is ii?— Takini,' (lio lon^'th of tlio ro«il, i-mvaliiro and ihognidionts, you tind <>ut wliat ..mount of trailic can ho ('arric'd ovor It by oni^incs of a oerlai'i pDwcr, wliirh would cost a certain nnrn. and •j:(! cost of fuol and otiicr ingroiliiints, oil, iVc, that arc rc(iuircd. /,'(/ .Ur. Kci'fer .— Ul'.'o. But with tho same gradients and came curvaiiiro it is ti luccd ; I a (luo.stion of t-o iniudi [tui' nii.c? — Yos. Jiy (he CfKtinnan : — lll!M. If tho capital applied to the construction of one was so niiich ,>s than on anc^thor — thai tho savin;^ of interest amounted to more ;iian tho t-uving of runiunf^ expenses on tho olhorlitio — would that iiiublu you to say whi(h was tho most favouruble lino to adoj)l ? -1 do not think that that alorio woulil. 111!)'>. What cIho would bo a material element in tho calculation ? — Tho country to be bonetitted by tho railway, and tho pridiabilities of muic or loss tratlic on tho route through which tho road W(juld pass. lllOlj. Assuming that tho local traffic would bo equal on each lino, hlhcroetill any other lu'itorial ingrolicnt in the calculation ? — Vis; 1 ihink so. I think that in a transcontinental railway, such as this in rontcmplatod to be, that other things being equal the shorter that you (un mako the route tho better. IIIDV. That is — leaving asi^Ie tho question of capital an I interest involved in tho conntruction of the one or the running ox|»enseH of the I'thcr — tho lino which could bo travelled over in tho .shortest space of ume might induce an amount of through tiallic which a road of L'reater length would not induce ? — Yes. 11198. Aro you of tho opinion that this was one of tho reasons why tlie direct line from the Narrows of Lake Manitoba was at one time loijected ? — I am. IIIO'J. Do you mean that tho probability of ihi-ough freight and )iiisi' sliiirlcst muto be^l. Tills is tli(> reason why 111.' Hue lluoiiuli llu) NarrowK was l>rujooti'tl. .Shortest Ilm- arrived at. Local trafflfcxpoctoil to 1)0 swelleil from branch lines. :;":*>, ROWAN ■nilwliy Iu. 734 Hftd ho known as niuc'li lis lu'tloi'H now of the ('xthod Ihroiii^h within a slioi |irii()'l (tl'timo, and that fonsecinonlly local tralHc could not aiiKiiint ii tnuih in thai, time — in tho Linio I mean from its con^nioncoraoiil u, n, i'on»[)lotion. J I20;{. In yom- opinion, would Iho rood bo u moro pj-otitablo iiirje;. falviiii; if it had boon built without ro you remember whothoi" you and tho Chief Kn;,'ii)coi' (nii. sidciod tho question upon those matiers, or whether ho alone undcrtoolv it? — 1 do not lliink he consulted me on that particular point. 1120(5. As an engineer yourself, and without reference to whai liii, taken place, are you of opinion that tho moro protitablo undcitakiii' would have boon to consider tho sottlomont of tho countiy through which the road was to paHH, 80 as to increase local tratlic from ihoi beginning rather than wait for its development afterwards by biiimh linos? — If 1 know all about tho country then when this work ^va^ undertaken that I do now, probably that would have entered very strongly into my consideration ; but so little was known at that timed the vast extent and fertility of tho country here, that I do not think 1 would have been in a position to give it that consideration wliiih I ought to. 11207. By tho light of the present day do you as an engineer think that it was a fortunate decision to plan the road in the raostdii-oct wny across the continent, irrespective of tho nature of the country as to I settlement, through which it was to pass ?— I think that a lino b ini; started and built, and intended as a quick and speedy transconiinoiitai railway, I would sacrifice some of tho benefits to bo gained from local traffic and improvement to make it the most direct route practicalil across the continent, provided that the engineering features of that route | did not largely enhance the cost over what a road moro fiivouiiil!' for settlement would be. 11208. Then do 1 understand you to say that in your opinion tlioi decision of that day was correct? — I think what tho Chief decided waJ right. 11209. Do you mean right according to the light of that day, or right j accoitiing to tho light of the present day ? — 1 think it is right still. 11210. Then that involves this gequence : that the through traffiJ gained by the short line would be more profitable than any increase ot'j local freight which would be gained by going through a better scttleilj country ? — I do not see that, for this reason : a through line is a triinkl line, whatever local traffic springs up will be led to that trunk lintJ when it is completed ; by branch lines. It is not probable that two! great trunk lines will be run across tho continent anywhere in closel proximity to one another, and the through continental road, jilthoughl r^*) ROWAN M, do you menu th lows !l(|v!llll!l;'i )M(»Mn|)l;it('il : ih I I within a >lil iiiiioiiiii I, rnoncoraurii lo iu profitahlci iinijer. ooily e(»in|)lcti(,ii, iiltcr '/ — I (lu iii.i' tiot nrnliiibly niacoil in oxaclly ibv lu'«t position for lucul trallic in Iho iii>t |)laco, will huvo that local tnifflc corno to it in tho com'ho of tiino. that not ho aftor Iho fiiiMhcr o\'i)oiiditiii'o of hiiildini^ -Cortaiiily attor lln- vMMiiiti-y i.s wolllod and hi'ani.di-liiH'.s llLMl. Wil luiinch lines?' air required. 11212. Would not tho advant.i^o of tho local trailic which may bo ultiiiiiitoly obtained bo dirninislKd if Iho co.st of tho > onNtruction of ijicse hranchos on tho original Mhortor lifio amounts to moio than the ,11ft of incroasini; tho lunj^or lino in tho tirnt instance ? — Itsoems to mo ihut in that way of putlinj; it, you aro loavin<^ out of consiiloi'ation altojrothor tho through tratlic. 1121.'{. I do not intend to do that .■' — Hy tho const ruction of a short ;hroii|^h lino, which ia built to compote with through trariHcontinontal linos, you give it a HUporiority lor that competition, and the local linos bo subse<|uently built will all'ord it u larifo local tratlic bosidon. 11214. Of course tho amount of throueventh of the whole, which do you think will be tho more important element in deciding wuether it should bo a short through lino or a longer line through a country well settled and in which there is more Uiisiness?--! think that if 1 am giving up a transcontinental railway, Jloii - Coiilrni'ta IVos> It Mil«l 1.5. hllK' iiorlll o< I <•!>»• r.iii'iil truiUc wlK "iinic iiiiir conn- try Miili i| an. I liiiiiicli lines iiiadu. IiTPspectlvo or i<»'!ii ti'iitnc iiio (Irsl );riinil ohjfct was I lie const ruo lion of (I traiis- (^ontliicMtul railway. Proportion bonift l>y throiiKh trtitfliT over a transcon- tinental lino to the wIiqIl' traftic. !!! ROWAN 736 1% ftnlUvay liocn" liuu- 4''ontrRi-tii IV(;n< 14 Niul 15. IiUOCCSStllll\' Willi oilier InuiM'cin- (llU'Ulul iilK'S. If Jitter compli'- tioii oi' lliii' Uirou!?!! lii'slness IK) more I hail -inc-scvciitli of \hv wholi- busl- JiesH lliiit could linvo bfi.'i.Kcciired liy a (IKIcri'iit roult" 1Iii'<)iikIi ii tietter aettlcil <'oiiiitr.v ; iis a purely lliianclnl «pectlve of Iinperlallnterosts the longer route glvliiK more busl- nesa a'ouIi! Iv the hettei line from a financial point of view. I will build it through u country most Hottlofl. If you ceaso tn li;,v iliat tilt) most important f"!iturt' in tho tliin<^, then I will taUo lli.> In,,, thi'ougli the country llitit will bring most local trullic I'oganlluss ni length. 11222. I understood you to nay tluit tho i-ca-^oii why you, as an on:;:. neer, considei'od tho short transconlinenlal lino t!ic best, is bocjuiso ii w;; induce the most through •r:;iiic, wiiich will be of more importance ihii:, tho valuoof the local t.atKc through the ,>jettleinent ? — Vou have niNuii derstooti me, and what I intend to convey — that tho consideration in.j object of making a transcontinental railway ol" the Pacific lliilw, was to enable it to compete favoiaaljly with transcontinental railwa.- iii other jiarts ol the continent. 1122.'5. if' after that competition tno business sliouUi bo no more tiiv onc-sovenlh of the whole business, how would t'iirit uf'cct the fiuostnin— J mean one seventh of tho whole business that could have been stviuvi byadilVerent route through a belter .■settled country ? — I>o you iiiwiii ;i- a finaiK^ial uiidortaUing ? 11224. Ves? — As a purcl\' financial undertaking, I sIkjuM !,•,: disposed to lengthen the line so as to secure the local trallic. 11225. Do you mean that tho question of tho amount ot tlirmi^' trallic to be secured by this particular lino was not entirely a liiiitnc:,; question ? — I think it was not; 1 may bo mistaken, but 1 think rioi 1122(5. What was the other question ? — 1 think it was a naiiiiii;il and Imperial question. 11227. I^o 1 niiderstand that tho intorosts ol" this countiy aiiil ilu' probabilit}' of a monelavy roiurn was not considered to bo of > ■ much importance as the interests of tho Empire gonorally in the oni. struction of this road ? — .!. do not know anything about tliis at a'., ' thought you were asking my vic./s ? 11228. So 1 was, but you went on to say what hud been di)ni\ ,M,i you have gone baidc from the decision you foiincrly ;^ave ? — Of coiu>o it is purely surmise en my part. When I say 1 think it was, or wasii'ii, my answer is, that, as a nurcly financial undertaking, I woiiM bv disposed to lengthen tlio line so a.s to secure u greater amount ol loia, tratfic. 11229. Irrespective of Imperial interests and by the liglil oftli' present day, which do you say would be tho most favourable onginoeriiu' and ti-?:u)cial undertaking, to make a direct short route with a viiu to the speedy transit across the continent, or tho long route whieli would bilng about more business from tho country moro or less thickly settled? — 1 think, for the present, tho longer route giving more biM- ncss to tho lino would bo tJie better line. 11230. You mean batter from a financial point of view and without considering the Empire ? — Exactly. 11231. Then the reasons in your mind, if any, for making a short and direct liru across the continent are, tho consideration of linperia. interests rather than of pecuniary results to Canada ? You will under- stand that I am only asking at present for nothing moro than your own individual opi lion ? — Thva my answer is, that I should bf d.^posei; to lengthen the Hue somewhat for the sake of securing local : .fuo. "■>7 G. BROWN vas> a niiiiiitKil ana view and withoiii ,;;"i{iiK Uuiiun's o:<;uuiiialiiiii (unt iiim.".! : % t/it' Chair)/) It n :— NI(on'li«>ii4 Willi A 1 1 o w n }' • U-.'ii. H:'.'-'^ you with you any siK'li li )o!\ as was rcrciTcd to in the Pioiiui-o^^ i.ook ,iili[vi'tia sei'vod ujm.!! you ? — 1 hn\v a book sli(»wing all notes di>- ','""! "!i?s''oimii.-. I MlitltOii in tilt' ItUlik. Ill UnOuiu Hunk. 112.'{'3. Will you jiloasc look at It and -^ct' if it ciin'tiiiis u reforonfo to ,'iV "f'fo or accrplanco tnudt; hy \V. F. Alloway or Tlionias Xixon, and njiwii 01 eiidoi'scd liy oithcrol tlu'in? I lia\e no do>i.'i-. to see atiy •hor porson's businc-is. — Cau you i:;ivo la ) any date? f should also l.ko it noted that I ^iv.' this lividoncc under protest. U there have loon any t hi n>^, I do not thirds these have been any Irausaetions I'or ...lao 3'ears. 112.'U. We wi>li to know noihin;^ of at.y note or acceptarK i- upon Fimis .vovimiik.t, Thifli tudy one n|' these n-inies appears; i( is only as to papei- upon !,V,i';. nr'^'I'iU'' \\'. which both n.uiu'^ appeal-. Wo wi.-h you tiistofall to find it there is K. Aiiowav „ . ' 1 oil miikt'r lovl ,, irferonee to any sueh paper r — I do. 'iii.mums Nixua ,,- 1.-. ., r »T 1 « _- i'iiili>r->ir. 1123.). ^^ hen .'' — In November, l.>(.>. W'.'Zii. What is the amount of tho jiaj or ?— §1,000. I ain simply ;;ikin^ from my books, i could not say. Diii- books aic headed in the I'jumiis '' I*iomi>-ks of your liank?— Yes. 11213. Which bank?— The Ontaiio Haidi. 11214. Are you manager a. id agent of that bank? — 1 am. 1124;'). Do you tin-hould wish it wo will notify you so as to give you tirao to look 'hem up. 47 ^:?>. ^^ i ] » » ROWAN i38 Mli-inlioii- toDfra«« \<>. 15. J ]]• R(,\v\ji's examination < oiitinuL-d Vciiriciil ion iiii-if mirf'tiiciil'. miiili' tiy I'fttr ijiMiil. Rfcciv . .1 oili<'i.iI iiutiiicHlloii thill work WiiH taki'Q f.iil (l cost to complete By the Chairman : — 11250. Was t licit- u voriticatioii measiircinfiil l>y Potor (rrant of ti.. woik on sfclion 1.') ? — Tlicro was, I believe. lli.jl. Do you know why it wan onleretl ? — I do not. 11252. Do yon know what the result was ? — 1 do not. I would |||<,. to say I ilo not. 1 know it was taken, and we at!'oi(led hitn ail li.e j'-sistance in our power to take it. n25M. Do yon IcnoAf the reasons which were given for takir ■ fiintract 15 out of'Mr. Wiiitehead's htmds ?— An ollicial docunu'tit w-a- sent to ine from Ottawa with instiuctions to serve it on Mr. V\ hilclieal I i'((ad it over and served it. That dncument is, to the best of tiiy recollection, an otlicial notification that the work was taken out oi'lu- hands. He beifig absent from hero at the time his lawyei' accepted -or- vice. Further than th;it 1 know nothini;; ol the matter except from nn position as district engineer. I know that the woi'k was not bein'' carried on satisfactorily. 11254. There has been a (juestion very much discussed, namely, the authority for tiie chungo of work on section 15 from the iresllo work system to the solid earth embankment : do you remomljcr wha; was the first authority for the change? — 1 remember the whole circi ni- •-lanco very (dearly, irom having given evidence under oath on the wliolr subject beloi'c a Coinmitlee of the .Senate 'n Ottawa, about a year ai! i adialf ago. 11255. C\in you say who was the first person wiio directed a changf— who had tiny authority to do so ? — The (question of authoi-ily todoHe-h, 1 have heard, a moot (question. 112on. [ will alter it by saying the first person assuming to liav. authority ? — The pei>on who authorized mo to make any change wai the acting Engineer-in-Chief. 11257. Do you mean Mr. Smith ?— Yos ; Mr. Marcus Smith. 1 look."! on his order as being '.'li tliat 1 require I. This, howevei", refers only to a ( hange of a portion of the work from trestle to earth embaiikmo/ii The authority for th.' complete change was communicateil to mo by the Engineer-in-Chief, Mr. Fleming, last yetn-. Ilis letter t(» mo rtluU"i that the Government approved of the change and had authori/.od it. 11258. Do you remember whether you had authorized thccontrafi);' to make any change before Mr. Smith bad directed you so todo?— N^. 11259. Do you mean that you do not remember, or that you did not authorize the change ? —I do not remember that 1 aulliorized any change until I was authorized by Mr. Smith. 11260. Can you say no'v?, 'n round nunihers, how tnuch the cost of th' whole work on section 15 will exceed the estimated cost at tho tirno the contract was lot ? — Yes. The original estimated cost wtis about 81,600,000 on the tenders ])Ut in. The estimated cost to complete i- 82,500,000. 11261. Then the diffeience is about ?— $900,000. 11262. Tho trestle work system would have been a less cxperii'tivc one than tho one now adopted ? — It is a more matter of construction, 730 ROWAN r (Irani of ti.. iminic U> luivr Sinilli. 1 look'' 11263. I moan the first cost — coiisti-uctioii (()st?~Vi's. 112()4. Ci\n yon say liow mucli of Uiis (iitVofoncc of SIMIO.OOO i> ])io- |,ably due to the change tVom trestle to eai-tli eiiiltaiikriiriit ? — .\boiil ?250,OOO, I think. 11265. To what do you attribute the bahmco of SO'jO.OOO ? — To an excess of Bolid rock excavation, in the actual (|naMtity ol' rock to be removed, on the line over what was placed in the aiiproxiiuate ([uan- tity submitted to parties tendei'ing. 11266. Was that from a change in tlie gra^iro to ss\y that at the time that iho qiuinlities to be >iilimitt» l r ) j)ai'ties to tender on undei- the proscnl contract, or at tiiat letting, v,\;/i.: called for, Mr. Carre was engaged in the tielJ locating and crosB-fjectioning contract 15. 1 received instiuctions from Ottawa .■•eipicsting an estimate of the probable quantities reijuired in oi'der to ■>ubmit to tenderers, and I sent out fi'om here to the line, and got Mr. Carre in to assist rao in making up thecjuantitios ; and as the thing was uiintod very hurriedly, I instructed him to make up the (piantilies ol" rock i.nd earth while 1 went into the designing ot trestle work and !akin^ out the (^uantitic I of timber woik that would bo required to complete the voids. H»^ gave mo in the (j.iantity ot rock that was required to be done, and showed me at the same time an improvement tliut wan made in the location which he was then engaged on over the ]irevioas locution which wmild sboi'ten the line considerably, and o!) that account W(^ struck oil' about 20,000 yanis of rock. If my memory serves .ne right, the quantity he had was 320,000 yards ; and ihiiik'ing wo could ^afely knock otV the 20.000 yui-ds on account c a' the piece that would be laken ot!' tho length of the line by this deviation which he was then making, I accepted these figures as correct with !liiit deduction, and forwarded tlu-m with my estimate of tlio other iiiiuntities to the Hngineor-in-t.'hiet. It was only a con.-iiderable time Mtorwards that I first became aware of the fact that there was going to be such a large discrepancy between the ouantity of rock to be ;ictiially done and that submitted to the tenderers. 1 brougnt it to the notice of tho Engineer-in Chief. Ho was very much s'U'prised and dis- pleufied when 1 brought it uniler his notice, and desired that I slK)uld iiivo some explanation of how such a discrepancy could occur. I iippealod to Mr. Carre as having made up the quantities lor an expla- nation, in order that I might lay it before Mr. Fleming, because ho was. as I havoalreiKly stated, completely taken aback by finding there was Mich a discrepancy between tho quantity given and what it was tiirn- iiif,' out to bo. Mr. Carre furnished, 1 believe, the Chief Engineer with an cxplanalicm — 1 think there must be a copy of it on tile in the office ~that accounts in a large measure for the increase ot tho (quantity and tlu,' cost of tho work now as compared with what it was estiniatod to ost under the form of tenders; and many people liavo, in consequeine, 'iioiight that the increase in cost v,as due to the change frtnn trestle 47i KiiiUvay Coil' NiriM'lloii <' of soll'l roi'k OxruviltlOll. Tliiv la»;t iti'in due in piirt to cliiink;!' of trr«l iictiial i|imn< litU"i. (^iiire furnished Klcniins with au e.x|ilautUtoii. ■\^'^"i^BPi^^T?^ ROWAN 740 '» * Rnilivny C'nii> HiriM'tloii— C'uiitiiK-t .>o. 15, No MiUlciiii! ihilii In llrMt pliici- III ohtilin :inyl liiiiL; lll«! cull (■('! (iliiiu- tltl.s. 'Iliinlis ilxTc liius' iilsii li:iVf liet'i an nrur in CllNMlillioll. I?((liiMlc liffoic calculat Ions ui 'jiiantil lis nil' Miailt! Ill |ii'(iliii' anil I'liish-st'clioii lint!. Ill lliis I'Hsi' I'l!" culiiltiiiis liasiii i>n cfntii' llni' "Illy. riicirfiirc ii.-sible to obtain sutlicient data lu riuiki' a coneet falcutation ? — Wo had not 8uHi(Mont data in the lii>t place l.j obtain anything like a correct calculation. 11270. It was no Cault. in the tiguriiig tlion ii])fm the data which Wfio obtained?—! do not wi^h to say that, 1 think iIrm'O mu.-'t have h(M, some en or in the calciilat ion ; but, at the same tinui, I saj* positively tha' we h;id not sutlicient data to arrive at a correct esiinialc or ;ii'\. thing like a coi''oct estimate, but 1 think there mu>t havo bi't-ii u <'rror in the calcuiatioii bcsi(|(>«, althoin^h, in justice to Mr, C'a:iv ; must si'v tliat ho was of opinion that theie was not, and eiidoavninr , to e.xphiiii how it was, 11271. Kerore the calculations ol' (|U.inlitics take jilaci', wlial ini ir- Illation is obtained by the ]»ersoiH in tho liold?-— The longitudinal pc- tiles of the country along the centre line of the lailwa}' is takcti. ai, ; .■«ubsei|ueiitly atrc([ui>ile intervals crotiH-sec'ions are ni.ale both ol"i ■ cuts and tills, 11-72. J)o you know whether the calculation, in this instaiico, wa- made upon the centre lino only, or ujion the additional inforniati":! which vvi uld be atl'ordcd l)y cri>.s.s-soclioning? — On the centre liiiewii^v to the best of my reeollviction. 1127.). I*o you remember whether i( was asMimcd, (or the purjici*^ •: tiiat calculation, that the surface of the groiiii'' was level and that rin' calculation proceeded on that basis? — Tliatwaslhe only ha->is nii \v!r i il could proceed al lliat time. 11271. 'riieii it was made in that way y m think ? — That was llic'.vav it was made. 11275. ilow would these parliiiihvrs of the centre line bf recnrdrl ! \ the person in the lield ? — In tho level Ixxdv. 1.27(>. l)oes ho record particulars tivr each loca'iiy as he proeodb along the line?— He lakes levels along tho ceiilro line of the railwav and records thi' height <>f the nurfiieiof the ground at oveiy IdOlcct.ii tifty feet hero and there. Those were necosaary bofoi"9 a certain as.sami': datum. Subsocinently a grade line, sujiposed to represent foniiali' ' level, as it is called — or about eighteen inclies below tho rails — will mi;- sequontly bo drawn on the profile, balancing tho cutH and tills, ih otherwise, as is doomed desirable; and the depth below the surface i; that grade line in cuttings is tho figure by which an approxiiuule ca culation is made of tho in c.i-' 10 iniaiitity ..: : tlio lio^iiiiiin:; lirli liUil Ijcc): t dill a til rnak.' \i tii'^l [ilace I.) itii wliicli Wi'io u.^l liavo b(\;. positively tli;i' irnati' or anv. havo l)Ot!i) u: lo Mr. Caiiv, i |(i i'lnloaviiiii r , (■V, what :iil ■:■ )ii!(itu(liiial |i . ■ is taUt'ii, ai.'i la lo both ()t''!i" s mstaiifo. w;.. nal iiifiirniaii'"! c'ciili'L- liiK' wii y • tlio puriii-'> '! ^•ol iiiid tiia* 'i.o V b!l>i> I'll \\\v' 1 hat was llie 'v.iv Ix- i'Of(jrdt>'l i y : iis lit' prori'od' I of tlio railwiiv voi-y 100 loot, M certain assumi': osonL lormali'' 3 rails— will Mii- j ciitH ami r!ll>, " w the Hui'tiwo"; upproxiiiv-Ue vn- III to roi)eut liu'l I 1 from the data >f'| actually ma'i-' *| inipros.-ion ---j liiiVi' been ln»itf>l c» l'rc)iii Irvi'l iiiK)k !>>• iiiiylMiily. RHilvt'My Caii- utriirlKiii — 1127J>. I undcrHtand that thia level ho .k heiii^' proHcnt and afVordiiij? Coiiir...t K.,.ir,. this data, that any person not connected with the tield work can niaUo he calculation ? — Yes. I12S0. So that it was possible to ascertain from the level book itsolt', Tho .ornitiicsM ivilbout Mr. C arre H presence, whether Ins calfulations as to 2. But although that can be rci)eate(l and his calculation l<(stod, v.iii iiie uncertain whether it was evei' ascertained whether he had :ii;idea nii>takc oi- not upon the .subject ? — 1 am certain it was ascertained that he had made a mistake. 112fi.'5. Where was that ascorlained? — When I cnmo to find the luuatity of rock over 500,000 yards, ratlier than ;j((0,00;). 11281. Wjis it ascertainr 1 by calculations from this field book, which liffrjrds sullii'ient data, or was it oidy from the result that you say it was ascertained ? — It was ascertained when we came to calculate from the cios-f-seclioiis that the (|uantity of rock that would actually have to lie (lone was in excess of the ligur-es given by Mr. Carre. Whether ;!ie figures were gone over again of the mere centre line profile oi* not, him not prepared now to state, but I rather think thoy were. 11285. The information given by llu' cross-sectioning wouM afford aiiogother new data for the calculation ? — Certainly; and corret-t data, U28f). I am at ])resent not directing my cmiuiry to that matter; 1 iiiderstand you to say that Mr. Carre contended he had made no mis- lake in the data which his field book aflorded ? — Certainly-. 11287. But he contended if there wa.s any error it was because his tield book did not afford sufficient data, inasmuch as there had been no (Toss-scctioning? — 1 think that was Mr. Cane's contention. 11288. I understand you to say that you thoiiglit there had hc.Mi a <'f iminvsviion ^.iH'iilciilatioii of tlu' data which his tield book\iid allord /— That is I';;'!.Hin'iMi!''i.' : y impression. 112fO. And \-ou say you tiiink that was tested ?— I think .Mr. Smellio, Tfrmks sm.-iiir „ ., ^j, 1 I .1 "^ " .v.- I I . I ' h.in hint i|iianli- c ttio otnce, had the on"'. titles re calculated. ties r.Miiiciiiiii. .i. "'12!»0. Do you think it like'y that the level book is still ])reserved ? •you know whetlier it is tne j ractico to do so ? — I think it is ; but if ; is not the profile is pre-^erved. The original profile is Iti the office at "tawM from which th^e heights can be taken and calculated the same -■ii'om the field boi*l<. 11291. You will probably see the drift of m}- (;ucs',i 'ii when 1 i(>mi"d you that if ho was instructed to make his cuJculation upon a sim})le !t;ntre line, and ihe result turned out to hii insuttieient, it would be no -lit of his; but if the centre lino gave him sutticient data to make) the ait^ulation, and in the calculation he made serious '>^ at fault, and it i- with the view (o asce errors, then he would whore that responsi- > ■■» , •- 'iiily lio^ tiiat I am pushing these iivKcil by liowiiii mill llii'ii sent til Ottawa lo >>(■ rovisi'd li\' •lllff KlmlllllT. 710 led alju\ 1' t III sea, Laki' Muu- •iiilja Mil. Dill not iIIk'cI loD.se rock til Ix' put Intoi'miiaiik- mint witlioiit, iiH'iisiiit'ineut III am I'irtssltlcullou. W Ut'n'coii t rH<>k two yafts ol rook outside iirlKiii was Al- lowed rorthr*-*' yard* ofoartli lu t tie bank. 11292. \V'oll, cull it iin orrcji- Ol' mistake? — Yes; i*. was an unfnrui. nnto one 11' it whh iin en-or. 112!).i. I urn not suie whollu'r 1 asked you lioftjre what execs.-, ui I'ock oxciivution was due to tlie clumgo of gfudos — I moan in rouini numbern?--! tliink you did; and that 1 replied liiat 1 was unable lioii, memory to tfot at this moment the quantity. 11201. In iho matter of grades who governs : are tho\ revised l'\ the Chief I'liii^iiieer .^ — They are revised by mo in the tirst pltKH', aiui ! Hond them sub>enuontly to Ottuvvti fur the upitroval of the Knginooriii- Chief. 112!)."). TIavo yon any re<'t»Uection as to what qiianlity ot nx-k exiu valion hitd been oX('<'iUo«>w what the levels on the map itr*!? — Tht-y are not correcl ;is now known; they were supposed to Ik- acciiralc m! the Lime this map was ma-uiuing Lake Winnipeg to be 710 leet abov • the sea, Lake Manitoba Wouid be 804, I speak from memory, 1 c;i. {iive it to you exactly to-morn>w. It is onl}^ a saving clause to say it i" from memory, us 1 think it i.i correct, though I would like to be suio. 11299. J)o you remember a dispute between the contractor and tl i (rovernment on the subject of loose rock measurement? — Yes. 1 IHOd. That has been explained very fully both by Mr. Carre aiil I'V , Mr. Whitehead ; but there i^one matter which, perhaps, you ctm ixphui, also: whether lofwe r()ck VVU.S put into the embankment at any lime without being measured in any classiticftion to the conti'tictor uri'iui your diiectiouh? — 1 think not. 11301. Were you aware that it was done ? — No. 1H02 Were yt)U aware that solid rock outside of the prism was \>n' into the banks without being allowed for? — Xo ; he was allowed for al the rock put in the embankment, that wiis taken from oiitsiiie the aulliu- rized prism of the cuttings, us etirth, at the rate of three to two ; that is to itiy, if ho to(»k two yards of rock from outside the prism and pii^ it into the bank he wa-< allowed at the rate of three yards of earth. 1130.*? Is that iKicau^e iwo yards of solid rock is 8uppo.seil to fill n ^ace in ihv bank equal to three cubic yards of earth? — Yes. 11304. So that you allowed him the same price as if ho had niii'lo that filling!,- with 'urth instead of rock ? — I'lxactly ; that is to say, wi; allowed him the space of three yards of earth in the bank. I think, bu; 1 as not quite ponitive, that he makes a still further chiim than thai, which is this : that ow'ng to the tact thai, rock stands at uiio to oiio 743 ROWAN riia und l.nk. while earth will only stand at a slope of nno aiul a-haif to one, lie should (JO paid for tlio lonj^lh of hank in:\dc up with mc!: as if it h-id k'on made up with earth : that is, that it would make more b:vnk lineally. FKit. I boliovo, has not heon allowed to him. !1305. Tho question of loose rock in wtill an oj)on quoKtion between h:m iiiid the Government? — Ho disputes the measurement; there it- no ■Kiubi about tliat. 1U506. It is more a question of classitication than of qnantit}- ? — 01 |iiantity. 11307. Thoi'O is a dispute ab(.»ut classiiication : does that apply to the hick (iiitside tfie prism? — No. That applies to boulders and ro ■io it. In my judgment, as will as the judgment of the division cnirincer, there was a lai'ge part of that woik that could not bo done n that way ; and, when wo found that he would not obey orders, to keep our.-elves safe, in case at any time he should fail to comjilete his A'lik, and it should bo thrown upon the hands of the (Tovernment, with ;ui the costly work left to do and ;ill the i-emunorativc work done. «o refused vo give full measurements. 11.'512. Then is it understood that the certificates are not statements 't the real work done, but only a certiricate f»f the work he ought to epaid for, although more work was done? — The ccrtiticate states oii '.> tiue that it is an anproximato estimate. Kvery certificate wo make [mrports on 1^' to be an approximation ; and eveiy certilicate which is nuitJe up monthly is an a|)proximate statement of the total amount of ^Vi>rk done from the commencement on the contract up to the tiniL' when it purports to be a return of work, and it onlj" profe;?seb to be int. ;ipproxiniation. ll'il.'l But is it intended to be as correct a statement as r-an V given I '.he actual quantities known ? — Yes; that is the intention. 11314. Then why i.-. a smaller amount named: is it tor the reaaon^ you liavo given ? — l*]xactly. it is because i conceive that a oert.un amount of discretion is left in the hands of ari engineer, occupying the position 1 did, as to the amount of the returns that are to be made. ll.'^ir). Thon you consider that, although the certificate purports to 'tate, as far as ycuv knowledge will permit you to state, the quantities RatlWA)- Con- Htriit'lioii - Contract .^«>. LI. Contractor's clulin for inoro Uiiciil rn(!iisiirt>- iiit'tit not iillowt'd M<>asuri'moiit of liKnc rorli (UspllUMl. ( ioVlTlimi'lil'S view thill stones li'ss tliiiti foiirti'en cMlhio li'i-l slidUld l)i' I'ljissKlfd iis fiirth ; if lori.N feel as soljil iojl{. EnnlMiH'r in cluirn'' iindiT ill- rccl ion nf witn«'s*i oTlitlcil Ik h snialli'r limn tho aclnul i)\ia')tit,,v of rock ulriiftlnn— CoiitriK't Nu< l.'S. 744 Trestle niiil I'liiik (i|U!il |irlci III « lnhtci'ii fict. oxocutcd, thut it is not intended reuliy to ftato the full amount, if tin any reuHon you should think any portion of tlio price should he kciii back ? — 1 do not think it docH. 1181C. You consider it nccosHury t(» f'ramo your certificate in th;i; way to Ha. o the (Jovernment the expense of linishinpf at a liit^her juiiv tl)at work which was left undone at the contract price, and tii-i ri-iuin ing of the ])ercentago which is always left in the hands of the (iuvein nient might not cover it, so as to save them from this loss ? — No. 11317. Have yon considered up to what height of the einbanknuiii trestle work, as originally conteinj)latr(l, would ho the chea|K!r wvA" of construction ? — iJcyond wliat height, not up to what height? 11318. Yos ; beyond what height? — I have. At the contract r;iu< in this particular contnuit, the point whore embankment and iro>ii,. weie of alout ecjual cost was lighteeii (ijet. This was due to the liitrii price of malei'ial for forniing the embankment, and to the low j)riceiii ti.nnbcr. Had the things been inoi'c c(iiial the relative ([Ualily umil.; have given a deeper bank. 11319. J>ocs that include the solid rock bases, or do you assumo thai that is present in both cases? — Xo ; I thitd< tliat is compared willi iho earth bardc. 11320. ho you mcMii to ixnjiare a rock base and trestle sii|mi structure on tiie one side, against solid earth enibankmcnt, without ;ui\ base, on the other side of the (piestion ? — No; 1 mean to compiiio tli' filling of any valley uo to a certain level, where that valley would !• crosseil by trestle work up to that levtd the whole way across from lln bottom up, with earth without any ti-cstling. 11321. I)oes the question of rock bases alter the comparison in .my way ?— Yes. 11322. How would it altci- it: I mean would it alter the height u; which you say they are equivalent ?— Certainly. 11323. Have you considenid it with that element in the c.ilciihitioii.' — 1 have. I have submitted a voluminous report considering it in cvtiv ](ossible way, and showing the price per lineal fool of the era Inuik men in (.very way it was possible to make it utider the contract : earth bank, earth bank with rock base, ami earth bard< with rock sides and lia^ettu: centre and bottorc being eaith. 11324. That i-eport was made to Mr. Smith : is it likely to be fvin". at Ottawa? — I tliink so. If not 1 (;an furnish a copy. 11325. Is there a dii-pute upon the subject of the sufficiency of iIk ties used upon contract If)? — No; not as to the sutticieucy bm ;i- to the number and the insjiection. 11326. One of the contractorM, cither on 14 or 15, reprcseiitol rmitrjictor put In that after ties having l)ecn accej)ted by the (rovernment ho usei i.osiii'veoniJr8 them in the road; and after they had been used for a considoraU'i I '^,''"'1' \''«^'''''~*'"" time— a year or a year and a-half — he was required to take them out *"^ "'^"" and put in others, which has not been done yet ? — That all occurred '^i' 1 contract 14, but as a part of contract 15, The facts wo tho^e: the contractor went ahead with tlio trackdaying night and day, ami put in tics in spite of positive orders to the contrary from the I Division Engineer, Mr, Thompson. T have his report upon the subiiHf,| which, if deemed necessary, I can submit a copy of it. In cousequoiKO Ruck lni.ot' Willi M uUer ('(itii|>Hi'i!-iiii IMMputf ii.s to Mllllbl'l' i.tu) \\\ h))(.'ClioU ul' tU'.<. ( unlriK'tlVo. 11, 746 ROWAN til bis doing thirt I declinod to roturn that part of the track as complotod, ami hubrtociiiently Hoiit ovoi' tho road to cull tho l>ad ticM that were put into tlio road after ho had boon using the road quite a time hirasolf. 11327. Wo undorhtood Mr. Carre to Hay, in his evidence, that ho ccMiHid- cied you had not visited tlio road very frequently while he waK finally locating tho line. It may have boon later, but he mentioned the inter- vals which happened between your visits ; are you able to say about l;(iw frc(|Uontly the line was visited by you, or whether it was visited ;.s often as iiece.ssai'y ? — J visited it as often as I possibly could in connec- tion with niy other duties ; I could not say exactly how many times I visited it, but it must have been twenty-five or thirty times. lll{2cS. J)o you thinl< the work done was less efiiciont th:in it would !i:ivo been hud you been able to visit it of toner? — Possibly, if I could liavo visited it oftener ii might have been better. 11320. Have you any i-cason to think that it would have been better? —Viewed by tluj light of subsequent events, 1 supjjose it would. I want it to be distinctly understood that I could not visit it more fro lueiitly, and attend to tho other duties that 1 had to attend to. 11330. It was not from any neglect on your jiart ? — No ; it was not liii'uugh any intentional neglect ov wilful neglect. 113:}1. Have you over estimritcd tho cornparaiive co-t of bridgirig the Rc'l River at Selkii-k and at Winnipeg?— I think 1 ilid make some r'jiigli calculations some years ago. 11:J,3j. Can yctu say what tho result was ? — My recollection was that :1ilM'o was very little ditl'erenco in tho absolute co.-^t between bridging 1,1'ro and bridg'iig at Selkirk, if these are tho two points to which you ;.l!udo. 11333. Did that include the filling f )r any distance oust and vve-*t of :he liatdcs of the river? — To the water's edge ? 11331. Yes, t) tho water's edge ? — Yes; it included not tho filling but ilic trestling at Selkirk. 1 1335. So as to roach tho general level of tho prairie ? — Yes. 11336. Have you compared the cost between tho bridge at Selkirk '.i\ that way, and at any other point besides Winnipeg — Stone Fort, lor iistaneo, on St. Andrew's Itapids ? — Y'es ; ii is my impi-ession I did. I am I'letty sure J did, only in rough a]i]>ro.\imation, never going into details. ilic result was that the ditl'erencc in cost would be very trifling at any ]ioint, if that was the only comparison that was to be matle. 11337. What other element do you think ought to be taken into cunsidoration in coinj)aring the two points? — A large number which are all Bot forth in my report on tho subject. 113^8. Do you mean the report in which the level of the water was ^'iven when tho countr}' was inundated? — Yes; all the various matters V'hioh in my judgnjent required to bo taken into consideration in 'lotermining on where the site of the bridges should be, are brought 'inder notice in that report; possibly, speaking from memory, the onsideration — which at the time the location was made was considered to be a very important one— was the question of property, to whom it belonged, on tho bank of tho river— 1 mean that at Selkirk a large • mount of property was owned by the Government; and this utilized Railway Ooa» ■triivilon— Contract No. II. ir«l Hlvcr CromilitK. ' iinI of liriilt,'!' anil l|>|l|'Ulll'lll'S \l the time til.' ••'iSt 11(11 hild^'c at Wliiiilpft; ami ul Selkirk would not tM> very tlissliiilliif Still holds (!„• X Jew of his it'porl, !.ent,'th nf hrldfrc TOO loot, t rent Ic work at. side i.',(HK) iliCt. Fullest Infortua- tlou reKardln« I.' very HUKsrcsicd jtolnt fjlven In report. jiH a town wito, uh it voiy nrob:ibly would bo, would h'lvc broii^rlii j,, .^ voiy lui'go Jimouiit ofmono^ *'> tho (rovorniuont, umply Hiilliciciil in tin juilfiftnoiit to inoi'O than puy for tho fost of bfidjjjiii<^ tho rivor. 1 l.'J.'JO. Do you roniomboi", iti round numbers, what vahio wuh attiiclioij to that fact? — 1 subrnitte ovof .HUggOhLcd b\ anybody wore ;at;i(l»cd to the loiigitiidimil Hcclioiis. 11351. Would not tlio lino of railway after it hul crossed the bridge ;,|,..o have croHHod the low lands to the west ol'tbe river tliut would be vortlowod with the (lood ? — About ten miles west. 11352. To what extent would it be overllowed ? — To u dei»th of three feet, about. 113515. And what width ? — Speaking from momoiy, I think from l.ilOU to 1.500 foot. 11354. You spoke ol the depth to whieh it would be overllowed ; did vim refer then to tho flood ot lS5:i ? — I presun>o so; that is what I iin'! lloii- Hrd Klv«r C'r«t4r is not piTccpllhly wirier tliuii In TriiiiMiinrlaliOli of KmIIm, < Contract So. IS. ,« 1 ". f t ', - ■i^ , :!, .0/. '^^1>T.%. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I «i5 IIM |||||M 2 till *:■ IM 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 < 6" - ► y; % 'a <%/ ^. # '^C^^ _A. y ^ Photographic Sciences Corporation ,\ \\ l\P '!>'' O^ ^ 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 " r<^^ V. ,^ ^&f Sop 4 L^i'^' i/x ROWAN T4S \:9 •: *• » .' Conf riietor reJused. t • Transportation ol Rnlla- coutract So. 18. j jyjjj, jy^ y,.,^ ,.eniembor who made the tender ?— Kittson. The hia> tmf-tor unam^"' »'*<^ ^hese : the hrst 1 know of such a contract at all was the ruiU rails at Selkirk, coming here and parties asking me where they would unload them, ami 1 told them at Selkirk; and they told me they cou!d not go down tlie liapids at St. Andrew's. 1 said : '• You must go down ; I want the ra Is down there." They said they would not, that their agreement with the Government was that they could navigate the whole Ked Rive; from Moorhoad to St. Boniface, and were bound by the Governraont to carry the rails as long as there was two feet of water in the river, but to go over the St. Andrew's Ra])ids they had to have six feet. 1 thought it was a very peculiar thing, and if my recollection serves ni' right, I applied to Ottawa to know if it was the case, and I got a cotiv of the agreement that was made, and I insisted upon their going dowi, notwithstanding their contract. I said they must go down, that tlioic was six feet of water there. They went down with the first load paii of the way, and then tui-ned back when they got to the head ofth' J-Japids, and unloaded them when they got to a place called the Birclu-. opposite Bird's Hill, Pembina Branch now. 1 think it was the follow ing year they made the same pretext, and said there was not six fei;i. of water in the Uapids ; I said there was, they said there was not. It was a question of assertion ; and I hired a small steamboat and had a beam stretched across her forty feet long, and had teeth put int(- i^ like a rake three foot apart, and made her go down the river from lien to Selkirk, and took the levels in the river when she went down, aini there was no denying that there was eight feet of water, without any boulders to strike the teeth three feet aj^art, and by that means I go- the rails, 9'JO tons, down to Selkirk. Then the water fell l> the level that we know by our levels would not leave more than six feet over some of the boulders, and I ceased to insist. But my own impression is that the difficulty was not so much that tliej' could iioi go down, as that having gone down they had not the p )wer to Utw their barges back again up the Ilapids. 11360. I understand that the time arrived when, in your opinion, they were no longer compelled to take them down?— Yes. 1 1361. Tt was necessary then to procure some other means of tnai- portation ? — Yes ; in addition to which we had a large quantity di rails landed on the bank of the river between hero and Selkirk, wliitli was neither near St. Boniface to be utilized where wo wanted rails, nn yet neai- Selkirk. The building of the Pembina Branch woiikl oMiibl- us to get these as well as other rails to the part of the line whore they were required, at a comparatively small additional expense, beyonl building the Pembina Branch. 113G2. Do 3-0 u remember what would have been the cost of t .•an.>- porting those rails from the points near Winnipeg down to Selkirlv ■*" as to make them available for section 14 or 15, as the case may bo, ii you had not built the North Pembina Branch ? — I do not remember at this moment, but I presume the figures Mr. Fleming submitted inn-t have been nearly correct, because he had the contract to Judge ly when he made the proposal to the Government about building tlm Branch. Contract Ko. 33. 11363. Do you rcmcmbcr the substance of the contract botwoon Kavanagh, Murphy & Upper as to completing the Pembina Branch ' — I do. Bnllwn.v C<»u> Mlriiflion— I'ciiibt liruncbt ecember ibllowing. 113(55. That was the completion of the gradiiij^ whicli hatl been left niidone by Mr. Whitchoad under lus contract ? — Partly that and partly ;i portion of the road, about seven or eii^ht miles between St. Boniface ;iiid the northern end of what had been Mr. Whitehead's contract that hud never been let before at all. In otlior words, it intdiided the i^i'adini!,- from a mile south of St. Boniface station to the point where Mr. Whiteheau's grading;; had been done, and the putting of Mi*. Whitehead's uriiding in proper siiapo to complete tho road, together with all the bi'idges, culverts, cattle guards, road crossings, poct? — Ho did not deliver tho ties that he con- tracted to deliver at ad, nor those that ho did deliver within the time, specified. 11374. Have the ties boon delivered that were intended to be delivered under tho contract? — Yos; we procured them by othoi' means. 11375. Is there any other matter upon the subject, or any dispute di' (Jiftercncc of any kind ? — Xot that I know of. 1137(3. You are not taking part in the pottlement of any dispute on tho subject? — No ; I have made all ray reports on the subject. What action tho Government have taken on it I do not know. 11377. Had you any jurisdiction over the fulfilling of the contract made for the equipping and working of the Pembina Bianch with Mr. Stephen ? — None whatever. 11378. That contract was ended and the work taken into the hande of the Government— the running of the road ? — Upper & Co. ran it for awhile until the work was taken out of their hands, and since that the (government have been operating it themselves under their own officers. RniUvay f'on> fcti net toil — Poiiibt Braaeli* (Contract No. 33. T'^pppr AOo.'s contract mmpli't- Int; Whitcliemrs work oil I'ciiiliinii l'.r:iiic!i Soiilli. Wort< tiikPii out of llicir liumls. Ordered to rntn- plcli! work at con- I ractor'n cxjiciimj by day l.ihour. Whiit yd re- mains to l)e donf . (oiitract Xo. SO. Rnt)|iison i"alled to perloriii iiis ciiiilract. Operating Line* (Jovernment operating Pem- bina Branch. . • - , :? •' • » 1 » !•• r " I i4' ROWAN 750 Priiibt Biuncli. Oprratiiig; Line, P '3 ''<>'■ « Pcinliina Rraiidi wi>rk<.'il well. RnlUvay ('on- «t,ruotlon— Contract JNo. 48. Some delay took place in locating line. Engineers above their waists in water. Large amount of water cause of delay. Charnoter of road- bed. Contractor claims that laying the rails on prairie iand ballasting them afterwards more costly to him. 113*r9. Fs it worked under your supervision? — No; 1 hiivo onlv charge of the construction. 11380. Tlio manner or efficiency of the working of the road a-;. running road is under the direction of some other person ? — Ves. 11381. Who is that?— Mr. Lynskey. 11382. Have you an}^ information, which would help us in tlic ii,vr>. ligation, to give on that suhjoct: have you been enabled to noiito whether the woi'k has been well mansiged or ill managed, or is it pav- ing, or anything ol" that kind ? — As to paying, I could not say; but ii-'to working, I think it has been as well managed as it is possible lo do with the means at his disposal. 11383. The first 100 mile section west ot Eed River is ui/der your supervision ? — Yes. 11384. The contractoi-, Mr. Ryan, has mentioned that ho considom* that a considerable delay occurred in the locating of the line atter h. was ready to go on with the construction, what is there to be said about that ? — There was some delay at the commencement no doubt. The amount of water at the back of the town here, where nobodv seemed to be aware belbre that there was such a quantity, seriously interfered with the prosecution of the work. It is very difficult indeed to get at the point where the work was to be started, even to make the survey. The engineers were over their waists in water. There was i a difficulty in getting away that water, and from this and other cau.^e.^ there was delay in setting out the work ; but I think that that was j really the principal cause of delay — the amount of water both inside j and outside of the city limits and the difficulty of getting rid of it. j 11385. Are you aware that there has been a change in the character of the road-bed from that which was intended originally ? — I do no; know that there is anj' change in the character of the road-bed. Theie is a slight change in the way of the carrying on of the work. 11386. When I »-aid the character of the work I meant that the road- bed was to be of earth originally, and that now it is made for a con>i- derable distance of ballast without any earth being taken from the ditches or put into the road-bed ? — The way I would put that is that it was contemplated to make portions of the road from ditches dug at the sides of the road, but now some of the places that would have been made up on that way have been made by hauling material from borrow-pits. It so happened that these pits are of gravel, and the portion used for that purpose — I mean the bank purpose — may be considered as earth work, and the portion that is put on top for holding the rails in place as ballast. 1138Y. Is it not contended by the contractor that because this lower portion of the road-bed is of a different material from that originally contemplated that it will not be necessary to make the road-bed so wide, but he has to be paid just as if it had been made to the full width originally intended ? — I do not know what his contention is at all. 11388. Has not that matter been submitted to you at all ? — Xo, 11380. Have you understood that he was not making the road-be-l of the width, for instance, that it was originally intended ? — I under- stand that he raises a claim that in consequence of his having to goon and lay the track on the prairie, in order to expedite matters now, and 761 ROWAN ^o; I hiivo Mulv I River is utid«r Knilway <;on- • trurtloii— put materiul in underneath aflerwardf*, that it is more costly to him t;ontra«t«w». 4S, thiin if he had gi-adcd it tir.sl and laid the track' afterwards. That is what I understand to be the contention. 113i)0. Has ho made this contention to you, or has ho made it direct ;o some superior otficer in the Department ?— 1 think he has mentioned the matter verbally to mo. [ do not think ho put it in the form of a complaint that I was to take notice of, but I fancy that ho has discussed the matter with the Chief Engineer. 113!U. Then whatever his contention is, I undorstand you to sa}' pniersnoinivinii that it is a matter upon which the Chief KnijitiCi r is givini"- an opinion iiis opinion at •I • o v 1 i- 1 r i. .. *• .1 present oil tlie or considering r — los; and which 1 expect at some time or other, pro- claim ot eoi>. Uibly, to be called on to give an opinion too ; and I would not like there- tim^tor. fore to hazard any opinion now until the matter is put before me in fome shape by the party making the claim. 11392. That change in the manner of making the road-bed is a matter which you have not given sufficient consideration to pass a final opinion on ? — That is the tact. As the matter will probably come before mo olficiallj'', I would rather not express any opini(m on the subject at all until it is brought before mo in that shape. 11393. Is there any other matter that you think of which you consider would be debirablo to give, in the way of evidence, so as to assist us in this investigation ? — Not at this moment ; but I would like to have permission to do so if I think of anything before you leave. * f > I at all ?— No. Winnipeg, Friday, 8th October, 1880. Thomas Nixon's examination continued: By the Chairman : — 11394. Do you know whether there was any other person of your name living in Winnipeg in the fall of 18*75 ? — There was a man named Thomas Nixon. The way I know is that I received letters in that name which were not for me and I returned them to the office. 11395. Mr. Brown, of the Ontario Bank, yesterday led us to under- land from some memorandum in a book which he produced, that there had been a note of Allowaj's endorsed by Thomas Nixon in the fall ot 1875, passed through the bank, and we wish to know whether it was you or some other Thomas Nixon ?— I do not remember of any such note. 11396. Now that I mention this fact to you, does it induce you to alter your opinion on the subject ? — It might, but 1 would like to see the note, because I do not remember. I have no recollection of the matter directly or indirectly. Of course if I had .1 would not have made that statement, so positively. There were no relations between us that I could call to mind why such a thing should have occurred. Do you know the amount of the note ? 11397. $1,000. — I do not remember the transaction. 11398. In what business was this other Thomas Nixon ? — I do not know. I did not know him at all. I never saw the man. NIXON. P«ynia8tvr« auAccoiillt> iO'hi ■On nth .TiUKs placed $01)5 to - covered the bank-books or some other materials which would enable you to give us the information — that is, the amount of deposits to your private account while you held your otfieial position ? — 1 cruM not, tell that; I could not discover that from my biink-books. I tind in mv bank-book with the Merchants Hank, on tlio 17lh Juno I placcl S.lii':) to the credit of the Canadian Pacific Jiailway, but what il vva^ for [ could not tell. 11400. Was that in the oi!ifial account ? — No ; if I romombei-riglit— and I think I am correct — the ledger keeper gave me to untlorstm,! afterwards that it was no business ot theiis. They did not care who ;t was for. I produce my private bank book showing a credit on the ITt'i June, 1S7.^. My returns, of course, would enable me to know whatthut was, whether it was all one sum [ received that day or not, but tho.c is no other entiy in any of my pi-ivate books which would lead mo t' tind out. That is marked " C. P. K.' as you will notice (handing [\x book to the Chairman). 11401. May tliore not have been credits in your private accoiiit which in your bank-book would not bo marked C. P. K. ? — Ccrttiinlv, that is the only one that is marked. It was either a question ol'kecpii!;' the money in my cash books in the ofliceor placing it in the bank. Yni will notice by the exhibit which is before you (Kxhihit No. lOi) tluii the moneys were placed with rapidity to the credit of the Receiver- Cenoial. August 24, 1875, for example, $100; August 2.') (next day . $91. Then coming down to 1877 : twice in October, 2nd and ISth ; twirj in December — the second time is for the Rod Kiver road, however. I.i February, 1878, twice; again early in March : 12th ; twice the same dtiv in July the same year ; twice in August the same year ; twico b. November the same year, and four times in December the same yeiu': nhowing you that the moneys were not detained by me for any loi;.' period of time. 11402. That statement would not show that some moneys have nut been always retained by you. I am not suggo-^ting that they were; I am only speaking of the value of that statement. That statement oiii" shows that you accounted for those moneys in that rapid way whicli you desci'ibe, but one might make a mistake and not account foi' otlv ■ moneys ? -Certainly ; I suppose so. 11403. Yes ; and it is with a view of ascertaining whether any sucii mistake did occur?— I did not discover that, because I cannot dis- cover what never occurred. That is an impossibility. 11404. Do you mean it is an impossibility for you to have made a mistake ? — Yes ; almost, certainly. I do not see how I could. 11405. Will you see if you have made a mistake about this endorse- ment? — Certainly; that is not moneys though. 11406. Would this bank-book which you have show the amount oti depoBits which went to your credit in your private account in January, t53 NIXON Payniitnter" auil-Pnr« This is my book willi tho Mcrcliunts oookl'kr.fc ng. to lilrn unilcr lioadlni; " BaaK Account." ]ii"7?— No; it would not Bank. 1U07. You romcmber an itom of $2,8^)1, oi- thereabouts, which was .$j.>, liiowu was charged with achequeof 32,801, that on the ir)th December he was credited with an item of the same amount, under the heading ■Iknk Account ? " — Y'os. 11411. And it also appeared by 3'our cash-book, whiih was in oiit'Ct a bank-book, that that amount had been drawn from the bank, ;iiil tho clieque itself was produced showing that it was endorsed by John IJrown ? — Y'es. 11412. I would bo glad if you would ascertain whether that amount wont to your private credit, which you can do at the same time that you endeavour to ascertain tliis matter of endorsement. It will save lissome time if you will do it, instead of our having the books here to § hook over them ourselves ? — Yes ; I will do that. * ^ t- .' 1 ■ ''I bout this endoi-e-l [Wm, T. Jenninmis, sworn and examined : Bij the Chairman : — :1413. Where do you live?— At Rat Portage. 11414. What 18 your occupation ? — I am in charge of works of con- ■tmction on contract 42. U415, Had you been engaged in any work connected with the Cana- dian Pacific Railway before that ? — Only on surveys. !141G, When were you first engaged ? — In the spring of 1875. 11417. About what time?— In April, 1875. 11418. Please state the progress of the work which you undertook [and your connection with it ? — During 1875 ? 11419. From the beginning ?— On receiving instructions I proceeded Ito British Columbia with other members of the staff', and there my I party was formed, and we proceeded to the point at which I was to jcoramence operations. 11420. What was the number of the party who accompanied you to jBritish Columbia ? — I do not remember the exact number, but 1 think Ithere must have been some thirteen or fourteen. 11421. All of your party ? — No; in my party I think there was only lone or two who accompanied me from Canada. 48 JENNINGS. Surveys, B.C.— Chilnnco (o BInchwaler River. In charge of works of con- struction on coa- tract 42. .\prll, 1875, wont to British Colum- bia. Size of party; seventeen. JENNINGS 754 I ) ti SiirvfyM^ B.C.— t IlillllICO to Ktvcr. Axe inrn ciii^a^rfrl at o(ll(c,Victui-ia. Whoic party In field: t\vfiity-ii\f Survey from Chllanco River (o Vicinity of lilack- "water Klvcr to find liead waters of Na/co River. Trial location. Exfoptintr Hour and porli broiiL'lit supplies wifii thern. » 4' Engnsied on worlt from ntli June to loth Oetober, loo miles. NodKHcully about suppt'e" 1 U22. Had you c-hsr.'go of Iho party? — I hfid chaige ol' my own parly. 1 1 4L'H. What was done when you ariived at Biitish Coliimlia?— XIk; jiaity was titled out and men wei'o eiiffagod. ll-t-4. I[o\v many men wore ont:;ii;^ud, and wlioi-o were the eiii,,,..,.. menlsmade? — At our office in Victoria. Wo en/^a)i^cil the axe iik;ii tieces-aiy for the work. Those men wei'o hired at so miudi pi-r niontli and their bt^ard and expenses fi'om X'ictoria to the worlds and li.icl^' ard alter getting the requisite number and supplies — lU'Jy. I)o you i-cmember about the requisite number? — 1 j,;,,! thii-teeti altogether that season. My whole part}' in the tioM, ji | remember rightly, consisted of about iwciity-tivo altogether, incliuljn,,- the packers. After all preparations were completed we left Victoi'ia and proceeded by the waggon road to Soda Creek. ll4_tJ. What was the locality in which you wore to make the siuve/ that s«a>on ? — From (.iiilanco Iliver to the connection with Division .M. in the vicinity of the Blackwator Eiver. 1 was instructed to find tlni head waters of the river called the Na^co, if pi-acticable, to proceeil in that course to the Blackwator, or to the junction with Division M. Division M |)arty was working from Port Goorgo down the Chilanfo iiiver to Blackwater, but they were to go on and meet mo on the Xazco, if I should succeed in getting over the divide. 11427. What was the nature of your survey to be ? — A trial location ..simply. (Jver a portion of the distance I had information gailieiod from a previous survey, the first twenty miles probably. 1 1 128. Had that been a trial location survey ? — No ; a ti'ial or e.xjiloi. atoiy line had been run througli there the year before, and I \v;i> instructed to commence at a point near that line to bo decided upon k Mr. Cambie and myself. 11421*. Where was your base of supplies that season ?~\Vitli tlioi exception of some pork and flour, we carried all our supplier- with uj lll^jO. From whoi'c? — The}'' were sent from Victoria, as fai- an 1 am awai-e, but we got them at Soda Ci'eok, and we bouglit our Cittlel twenty miles, I think, from Soda Cieek, on the way to our woik. lU.'il. Is .Sofia Creek a tributary of tho Fi'aser iiiver ?— 'l es ; it nI a vi;vy small ci'eek. It is Just a ci-ossing point — that is where ff.'j ci'osscd the liver. 11432, That is somewhere in the latitude of your point of commeiKC- ment, or is it a little noi'th ?— Soda Creek is a little further nortli tlianj the poirit of commencement in latitude. 114.'';'. IIow long were you engaged on that work? — I rcturnelt)| A'icto) ia on the 4th November. 114.'W. IIow long were you engaged on the work? — From tho June to tho l.'ith Octobci- — perhaps the Kith. During that time ffoj were engaged in surveying woi k entirely. lliy.iy. That is the extent of the field operations for that season ?- Ye*, that is the extent ; altogether about 100 miles. I143t;. Had you any difficulty about supplies? — No; our supplid were sufficient — we had all that we required. 755 JENNINGS .\^f — I return e I tol for that season •; -No; our suppl 11137. Who li:i 1 the iv'.pon.sihih'ly of ohtiiiiiiiii; the supplies ut C/lillniK'ti lo li| |{|>«<;k\« itirr tiirinir the prices tor tiicin ? — Mr. I{i)biiisoii was the purveyor for th:it ,. *,**"* Jisirict. jMii vyoi. lU.'iS. VVliero was his heiKhpiai'ters ? — Victoi-i:i. 11439. Did he go with you to purchase them at this point ? — Xo ; o.|iiii.v nui-v.-yor 1 h;id a (ioi)Uty pui-veyor with nio, ami the only supplii's that wore ^*'"'' **' """'"'• iiiirc'hasod hy nne there were the cuttle and some minor articles. Wo ifotriine head of cat lie, as far as I can rememhcr. 11440. Did you meet with any unexp(!cted - pointed in the gradient, but I did not consider those difficulties, 11442. Were there any troubloH with the men?— No ; not more than ordinarily. At one time the men wore inclined to bo a littlo unruly, but they were quieted. On two occasions they wcie a little trouble- some, 11443. Did it end in delaying the work ? — No; there was no delay ■,vh:itover in consequence of these disturbances. 11444. You say you uriived in November in V^ctoi ia ; did you V.um',"ry!'is7^')I'I'i' remain there during the winter ? — 1 remained there until January. workoriV'ofi'ii', 11445. At work? — In the office, engaged on the protile and office work of the field operations oi' that season. 11441). What was your next operation ? — I returned to Ottawa. Atouauii. 11447. Was any work done th(U-e ? — Ves ; tho profiles and [ lans were completed there, and quantities taken out. 11448. Was the result of the operations of 1875 to find a practicable line if the connections with it h-td been feasible : I mean was that iink of the line feasible ? — The object vva.s to get as good a line between ihesc two points as possible. 11449. Do 1 understand you to sa}' that you surveyed what was [ eon^idoI•c(l to be a feasible litd< in the line, if the rest of it had been ;tksible ?— i believe that this portion of the line was as good as could legot in that country in the time and with tho stall' ut my C(jmmand. 11450. Without comparing it with any other line or with any other [part of the country east, was it a feasible location ?— For a mountainous liountry it was. Fi'oiii Dean liil' f iIiii/MkIi 11451. What was your next operation after being in Ottawa in tho vuiity. |wiultM" of 1875-70? — i was sent bacdi to Hrilish Columbia in charge of i«7f,, i,act<;toc<>i- iaparty to proceed to Dean lidet. My iristiuctions weio to run a li-iul lVi'ai''i,',,'.Hi'i<''.n inio location line from Dean Inlet through the Salmon River Valley to the irom u.sin iniet icoDiiection with tho line previously run by Mr. Hunter. kiv«i Vaiicy.. 11452. Where did you make no your party ? — Some member.s of my irow pmiy mnuiisly. P"ll'ty-t\vo nilk'S. Survey clo.sod end of Scptombftr. Supplies. Party returned to Victoria with ex- ception of men engaged on ground. 11453. Wliiit was tho numbor of the ptii-ty ? — Al oiio tiino the )i,ii;v mu8t have iiuinborod on to .sixty. It wu.s a double piirty. 11454. You moan a party for ruimiiijj; two ditloroul explDiaii,,!,., ,,,, surveys? — No; tho nature of tho coiiiUry b(M'n,i^ Huch, wo rofiniivl ., lai|,'or foico than or.liimry to enable uh to ij:et throui^'li tho niountain, during tho working soastjn, and for that purpose I wu.s allowed a liniliiy j.arty. 11155. You mean because of carrying siipplie.s? —No; on accoutu.,; tho nature of tho country wo required to htivo a double stjill', >,» ti,.,, lociilionand trial lines could bo going on at tho wamo time. To al intents and ])urpo.sc8 it was Iho wanie as two ordinary parties. 1145G. Each of them carrj'ing on ditlerent work ? — Yes; oiiu |.;ii:v cngagetl on the trial lino and tho other following up with the lucaliun, 11457. What was tho extent of the country surveyed at that time, and between what points? — Tiie length of the location line \v;i< between tifty and fifty-two miles from Ivenirquit, the head of Di-mi Inlet, through the Salmon River Valley, to the rolling country boyonl ^ho main range of mountains. 11458. Did you complete the operations that wore undertaken.— I'es; I completed tho full distance. 11459. Until about what time wore you occupied in the liclJ.'— 1 closi-d my survey about tho end of September. 114G0. Where was your ba.se of supplies for that season's operation-.' — At the sea coast in the first instance, and duiing the hitler part nt the season the supplies were brought through tho country by the mine train. At the same time I had a depot on the coast. 11461. Were tho mule trains provided under yo\iv direction, or 1 v 60me other officer of the Government? — Tho niulo trains were undu; the control of the purveyor, who had, I believe, an agent in the upixr country to look alter them. 11462. Had you any difficulty about supj)lic8 that season? — 1 \\> rather short in July. Owing to the high .state of tho water in the Eraser Eiver they were unable to get the supplies through from Yah'. 11463. Was there much suft'eiing in the party in consequence?— No, not at all; no sutioring. 1 1464. Was there any\lolay in consequence of the absence of supplio?:' — No delay. 11465. Did you meet with any particular difficulties in the operatioii-^ of that season ? — It was rather a difficult survey to make, tho country was so rough and rugged wo were in danger constantly. 11466. From the nature of the work? — From the nature of tho country and necessarily from the nature of the work. 11467. Was there any difficulty which you might not expect in such work ? — Not at all. The ordinary difficulties to be met with in li country of that description. 11468. Then, after the field work was over, what did you do ?— We returned to Victoria. 11469. With all the axe men and men ? — With the exception of those who were engaged on the ground. Those men were paid off. i , 757 JENNINGS liiuo till' \w:[\ y. Dxploriitiiiii> ,,' we r(M|iiiri'i ;, tlio iiiniintaii,, 111 lowed a .louUf •) ; on uccouiiinf ie start', si» thiit time. I'o ai parties. Ves ; Olio ii;ir;y 'illi the Itx'aliuii. )d at that linic, cation line \v:t< le head of I)o;ih I- country lioytuil undertaken.'— in the tield.'-l ison's*operatioib ' ho latter part n; ntry by the niu,u direction, or by •ains were under gent in the uiipor Boason? — I wa^ ho water in the lough from Yalf. consequence?— iienceof supplie?? , in the operation' lake, the couclry Ihe nature of the 11470. Men whom you had engaged at Victoria, ycMi took back at the (rovernmont expense ? — Yes. 1 1171. Yon only discharged on iho spot those wlio wore engngod on ;liO spot ? — With the exception of some men who were discharged from the works and sent home, I remember that there were some four or live men during the progress of the work. 11172. Was it the system to pay men of the force their passages to tho point at which they were engaged ? — It was, as far I know. On that ucia-ion we had a Government steamer to take us to the beginning i»t H,<\ — HoHliHi Itnr to ttMiiiicr. I>ll^et Siiuiitlt ■Rarly In Xovom- iMT at otf awa ■when workfid on plan and protilc. '£ninry H»r to Boston Bnr. Spring of 1K7S, to British Coluiiihla to rovlse survey on Frascr be- tween Emory Bar and fioHton Bar. Kaniloop* l^aki' to North rriioiupsoB* Survey along north Hide of Kara loops Lake ; also trial line aloHK south side of Kamloops Lake. Size of party tweuty-two. ■4 'v 11484. One tliat could ho used for a railway ? — Ves ; wo ohiaiii,.,! viiiy fi(H)d gnulioMts. urid 1 do not think tlio co.'sl ol' il uil lhrou;i;li wa. exuoMaivo — that Ih iho 08ti mated cont. IRS.*). I'p to what tiino wore 3-011 on^a;,'od on tliat work? — I (.„,„. plotod my Hiirvoy in tho mi idio of Soptombor, about tlio 23rd of Seii 1oml)or; and aflor a fow d lys I continuoJ down tho rivor, ruukiii" ;, track survey to connect tho river with tho K'MWoy that liad heoii mud,, by tho TiOcal ( Jovernniont, to a point 8omo ten miles below where I had Htoppod work. I had beoii continuin8. And thon? — Anl (lien I rotuitied to Ottnwu, 114!'!>. How loni,' (lid you remain llioro ? — I remuiiiod llioie until the ;,)||owing Hpring. lir)Of), Doing tlio ottico work for this past seuaon'.s oponitions V — Vofij 1 was rloitig office work when 1 waw required. llf)')!. What was your next work ? — 1 was Hont out to take charge nt foiistriu'lion on coutractl 42. 1 left Ott:iwa early in May, 187'.', and cumi- on to Winnijiog, and i'rom there to the workw. 11502. Were yo'i in charge of the party? — 1 wan in charge o|' the party. liril)3. Did y(»nr jiii'isdiction extend beyond the limits of 4"2 ■.■' — No: my jurisdiction only extended on contract 4'J. 11504 What did you lind on reaching the ground? — We found the line of the year before, of which we had a plan and protih'; wo fuw the |iortion cleared for the telegraph purposes on the fbi'm< 'ine, and tho ]iog8 belonging to the line that our plans referred to. 11505, What hue was that, the centre line or cross-section in^ ! — The (L-ntro lino and 1 dare bay there were cro.-s-seetion stakes als(>. 1150G. JJid you find evidences that the line had been fully 'ocatod mill cross-sectioned ? — In j)laces these stakes were to be found. In going over the work 1 would not look as closely at all these little points on the ground, as the aspsistants and division engineers would, but 1 saw lioth centre and cross- section stakes on the work. 11507. Had you any information given you as to the quantities which were expected to be executed?—! had the bill of works, ajid aliio a sheet showing abstract measurements, and the profile and plan. 11508. Did these show you the estimated quantities at each locality ? -Yes; 1 think they did show every little cutting and embankment. 1150!). 1 mean would you be able to see whether the quantity at any pariicular locality had been incorrectly calculated? — Yes; betwoefi artain stations 1 could take from this original bill of quantities, make lip my own and compare them. 11510. Wore the contractors on the ground when you reached there ? -I think one member of the firm was there. 11511. Who was that ?— Mr. Grant. 11512. Was the work laid out so that they could proceed without delay, or were they hin Hiriit'lloii - Coiilraci Sit. 44, May, IST1I, on workx. How III' louiiil till' liiit.'. IllKl With III III data hIiowIiik every culling and oiiibuiiknifnr. ■■Jf ' .n '. * roiitractors not (lelayccl. JENNINGS 760 ». ■* I 4 ■'» Nirnctlon— Contract Mo. 4ii. Work was ready before contrac- tors had any Appliances on ground. QradofiltorfMl and improved. Rock (Mitt in J. rt-dufcd. Amount of rock reduced. Fartii also reduced. Noroiison why rhantios .sliould !(-• steep gradients. The gradients were reduced. 115li-l. Has the effect of the change of grade been to increase the imk cuttings? — No; the rock cuttings throughout have been reduced. 11525. Is it by raising the grade or by deviations in the line.'— Bv deviations in the line which I approved of. 11526. Has it been materially decreased ? — I think it has. 11527. Will that have any effect upon the time within which tlic !i;,; can be finished ? — It reduces the amount of work, and it will in uiii'.l way. It reduced the amount of rock excavation, and consequeiiily tne time required. For instance, if a given force is employed they oiill be engaged on .some other work. 11528. Has it also the effect of increasing the earth onibankiiun' — 1 am satisfied that they have been reduced all over. 11529. Then, do you mean that the quantities of the two pi-iiiiijiail kinds of work have been materially diminished by the devia'.ioiiij ?-J The line as at present located gives quantities much less than that of the line the year befoie. 11530. Do you mean both of rock and in earth ? — Yes. 11531. Do you know of any reason w'hy the change made by tin deviations will delay the finishing of the work beyond the time tliatl was originally intended ? — I do not. I do not think that the work been delayed in any way by any change in the line at all. 11532. In a conversation with one of the contractors he led ib tJ understand that the earth embankments would be very laiveli increased, and that the rock cuttings would be diminished, and that thj ih m ifi i T i i< limmtui '- ' -^ 761 JENNINGS contractors any them ? — Yes. wt- id any apifliaiiccs at you dill hin k-r spot wlicn Y')!i shortly ai'lcr thcv lly or otherwiav r operations ?— I ) worliJS have U-oi' Drk ? — Thoy m;\\ ! wo had not *[nVi: uttings at a ^radi; grade was dropjii."! Hild bcbiu'ctotitki', her over the wholo ? — The grade lire L think there i^ !i'v to increase tlio I nek been reduced. s in the line?— Bv ik it has. iithin which tl«c ';i: .■ land it will in ln:r.| id conseqiienily iiu' ployed they i-iu;ll lirth embunkiiu'iii?! )r. the two primii'ill the devia'.ions.'- Ih less than llu'' -Yes. [ango made by tiiaj >ond the time llial| Ik that the work wa at all. ictors he led u- tl . be very hY'H inishcd, andUuitth* eon- Bnilway ''on* •trnction— etlcct of that would be to delay the completion of thu line, bccaiiHO he *''»"*«■•*«**<>• *"^ could not do the earth embankment in winter, but ho could do the rock luttings ; and that if the rock cuttings were not gone on with it would take longer to finish the earth embankmentw than wa.H originally contemplated ? — That depends on the manner of confttruction, ll;i33. Is there anything in the manner of conHtruction which will manm-r^f" cnlitchten us on thiscontention of the contractor ? — I do not think the s^truction to (.haiigcs have affected the contractor in that retsj^ect matfTially, that is nactwr. ar» far as the cuttings and embankraentsare concerne-i. The less cuttings there are the more rapidly he can get on with his contra<;t, and if neces- ,ary complete it by train work; and in placing the grade line through .uttings and embankments, I would place it so that it would be at the most economical elevation ; and 1 believe that I did ho. ll.')34. Have these deviations been submitted to your superior nrticcr? — I have sent a pi'ofile and plan to Ottawa phowing the j)resent iine. 1 have sent two or three profiles. 11535. Have you authority to make deviations from time lo time as you think proper, without submitting tne matter to the Chief ^jj^?/jl'J|^"||^J} Hngineer? — I believe I have. 1 have been acting under tliut belief, authority to and as far as I can remember have sent copies, or in r>ending the pro- mai**^ ^♦'^'ationa.. riles to Ottawa have noted the changes, and ^irlce th<' beginriing (>f this year I have pointed out to Mr. Schreiber any changes that f have made. ll.')36. Have you submitted them to any person on the ^[»f>t? Has ilr. Schreiber visited the line ? — Yes ; I have also j)oinleoint. In; approved change biit one. "I every change. There was one point where he th'^ught I could get :'. little further up on the side hill, and J directed Mr, latform of logs wroi-s muskegs. 11544. What else ? — The rook- borrowing has betMi very largely reduced, and train-borrowing has been very much reduced. •-., 'I ';i JENNINGS 762 II ail way Con* •truclion — ConU-act iSu. 43. ■■ i ' i^ 1 » <• ■*.. • I'' '*„•■'■' il ■'. .tl VJrUlj^e masonry redufed .30 per cent. llrulibinK iucreasecl. Stream tunnels through rook rock-borrowing adopted to complete. 11556. Mr. Manning, one of the contractors, gave evidence before ih and estimated that the total amount of earth excavation would amouii' to some 2,000,000 or more in excess of the original estimate, ho that tho aggregate now would be somewhere about 6,000,000 or 7,000,flOu cubic yards? — I think Mr. Manning is mistaken about that. I saw the item in a newspaper and I thought that was greatly in excess. 11557. I understand you to intimate now that the total cost will he actually less than was originally estimated? — The total cost of tin, work now will bo much less than formerly estimated. 11558. Will tho quantity of earth excavation of all the ditlcroni kinds be, in the aggregate, in your opinion, less than was originally estimated ?— It will, Avith the exception of offtake ditches. 11559. Well, as to otf-take ditches ? — That, I think, will be increase]. 11560. By how much ? — It may be double. In making up an c4imat«' of the work yet to be done, I made an allowance for oif-tako ditche>, which I thought would be sufficient to cover it, and I think I doublol the original amount. 11561. Will the increased amount for the off-take ditches a'foct thi' question whether tho whole earth excavation will e.Kceed tho origiiiii estimate?— Not at all. 11502. As to the water stretclios, have you been able to asceitaiM whether the depth will be about, the same as originally oxpjcted, or 763 JENNINGS .'iiig ? — 1 1 is. one luilc ; did J from moiiioi'v. nent? — It has. I reduced also II be about tlio 50 pel" cent., ut I, ani that tlu line was clcuiod jsarily alter tin.' lino. it will 01- not I small item. ir than clearing ? hrough rock?— 'hole oat of the -Yeri, very miieli, kmonts of earth ey ditler. Somt Uiei-8, where ilu; and in olhor? idenee before ib would atnoii,!' stimate, no thai 00 or 7,000,0(11) ut that. I saw y in excess. otal cost will W total cost of tile all the ditVeroiii was originally ;hew. will be incroasei. ngupanc-timati' oif-tako ditclie.N think I doubliM itches alVect tho ;eed the origi lai able to ascertain tlly oxpocied, or B«tlivn>' Coo* Ntriittlon— Coati-act No. 4ii. whether it will bo very much increased? — Wo have ascertained that the depth of water will be as shown on the original profile, but in some p'fif,!'J.^®^epoMit u^^ places tho deposit of clay, or mud, or sand at the bottom is greater than bottom greater, was supposed. 11563. Do you mean that that will bo displaced by the embankment ? a lllr^'(' ainnunt -Some of it will be displaced ; but speaking of water stretches, a large aoni^way wuh'^ ;imount of oarth and rock work provided originally, has been done ''|>^,*'"^j'.'*"''*'.'u'""'^'^ away with by the substitution of trestle work. 11564. Then there is a new item now in the expenditure for trestle Piling incroaspti, work of a much larger amount than was intended in the original oTtilubeVusI'dVn'' whole — tho tr«'Nll<.' not very , iniKih In t'xcc.ss of increased, wimi w sautui- l)iile(l. calculation ? — I do not think that the trestle work on the timber in the trestle work — has been very materially but some of the items have, the piling, for instance, will be largoiv increased, but the total amount of timbei- in trestle work does not form aveiy large item in the cost — that is, the difference will not be much i;reater. J;;^11565. AVill this item of tro-ho\ved that a discount had been made upon some note upon whicb the name of W. F. AUoway appeared as the maker, and Thomas Nixon as endorser ? — Yes. 11570. Were you in charge of the bank at that time ? — Yes, 11571. Do you know any other Thomas Nixon than the one who was purveyor ? — There was a man named Nixon here, but that was not lii.s name. 11572. Do you mean that that was an assumed name ? — No. There wai< a Nixon here, but 1 do not think his name was Thomas. 11573. Was thereany other Thomas Nixon, at all events, whose name you would have taken as endorser on Alloway's note ? — Not that 1 remember. 11574. Then what is _ ur impression upon this question, whether that Thomas Nixoti whose name appears iy your books was the pur- veyor, or some other person ? — Certainly it was Thomas Nixon, the purveyor ; there is no question about it in my mind. No other Thonm.s Nixon that wli- noss would liav>? taken ns endorser to Alloway's uo i. No qui^stlon tlic Thomas Nixoti on Alloway's note was Thomas Nixon the pur- veyor, ^> ■ .4 G. BROWN V64 • . , a . I . i;. Nixon's Fitr* v«»3r«rshli» — NiipplleM. Conti-a<'tXo. 15. A llt'j^rtl iiii|iro> per ialliieni'c. Relieves Cooper, Fairman & ;o., .-'— No ; I believe they did assist the 'Times. 11580. On account of the railway? — Not that 1 ever iieard of. t ^ TUTTLE. Contract Xo. 15. SiippIW'H. C. R. Tuttle's examination continued : By the Chairman .• — 11581. Do you know whether Cooper, Cooper, Fairiiiun & Co. furnished contractor with supplies. Alleg'ed fmpro* per litfliieitce. The assistance given witness by Cooper, Kainnan iV Co. not based on Influence witli any per.'^on oon- nected with Gov- ernment, but possibly on havliif? obtained a contract for them from Whitehead. Gave them a note Fairman k Co. were oii<;ago(i . — J — „ „ — I — , ^ , — ..^._ , ..^..^. . n furnishing supplies for the ('anadian Pacific Railway to the (lovoiii- laent, or through any oflficer of the Government? — 1 do not think they 1 rac ever were 1158-J. Were they to the contractors? — Yes. 11583. Did 3'ou receive any assistance from them on any gioiiiid connected with the Pacific Railway, or any person connected wiib the Govoinment ? — Certainly not on account of any person con- nected with the Government; but it is just possible that the assistaim they gave me was given to some extent, because I had been instru- mental in securing a contract bocwoen Messrs Cooper, Fairman .V Co, and Whitehead, but such an understanding was never expre.-^so!, Whatever a-sistance they gave me was on my nolo and the arrange- ment was that it was to bo paid. 11584. Then it was an advance on your promissory note, and not a gift ; is that what you mean ? — Yes. 11585. Did you endeavour to obtain the contract between Mr. AVIiitt- head and Messrs. Cooper, Fairman & Co., upon any understand- ing tha*^ you should receive money assistance for so doing ? — No. 11586. Do you mean that after having done so you asked for assist- ance in the shape you have named, and received it ? — Yes, I il<' imt mean to say, however, that I asked the assistance on that ground. ^SmaHmim* 765 TUTTLE |o. were (Mii^agiM to the (Jovorii- not think they connected with ly person con- it the assiriUuia lad been instni- Fairman iV Co. )ver expressed. id the arr;iiii,a'- note, and not :' 11587. How does it apjdy to the question : wiiat do you mean? — I -imply mean that if i had been in any way instrumental in beneHtting ;iiiy person, I would feel more like going to that person and asking fur ;i^si.stance, though I would not naturally state that 1 came to him on that ground. 1 mny say, hovvevei-, that Cooper, Fairman & Co. Iiad ;iMsi.sted me previous to my going into the ncws])aper, financially, and (letbre 1 ever knew Mr. Whitehead, so that there was a considerable apiuiiutance between us — a former a<>quaintanco. 11583. Have you at any time received any advantage from any con- i!iiCi>r, upon the understanding that 3'ou would exert your influence ..villi any one connected with the Government ? — ]No. 11589. Have you upon an understanding that you had previously vxcrei^ed your influence with anj' member of the Government? — No. 11590. Is there any other matter connected witli the transaction of Cooper, Fairman & Co. , which you would wish to explain ? — I think not; but it might be, perhaps, since my name has come up in this vonnection, proper for me to state this: the way I became acquainted with Mr. Whitehead, and to be thrown in connection with him and jieo])le from the North- West, and contractors generally, was that being engaged upon the seventh volume of my History of Canada, at Ottawa, where 1 located myself in order to get copies of various volumes from ;ho Parliamentary Library, and to take them into the Russell House ; while there and so employed, 1 became the agent in a friendly way ifir Cooper, Fairman & Co., to get a contract between them and Mr. Whitehead. I had been very intimate with Mr. Fairman's family, as liiends and neighbours in Montreal. He was visiting there, of course, find always came to my rooms. His wife was with him in Ottawa, and (in one occasion his wife visited with mine ; and talking over this matter with him I told him I would help him, and the contract was given to Mr. Fairman. 11591. You mean. by Mr. Whitehead and not by the Government? — Yes; in that way I came into conversation and acquaintance with these gentlemen. 11592. Do you consider that the Government, or any member of the Government, is 'n any way involved in arrangements between Cooper, Fairman & Cc. ou the one side, and Mr. Whitehead on the other ? — Certainly not. Coiitrart No, 154 Mii|>|ilifii« AIU'i(<'2,.'Vhi,ikki in.-tmd fit' .•Jt/HXl.lldO. Ti'ostle work leiiiporiir.\ . uups at I'll 1 11 re time lo lie lllliHl ill with (urtli. Boring rods used for teKtiiig (he depth of those water stretches witli soft deposit at bottom. From two tci four men reciulred lor boring. Pome borings sixty feet, in one case 100 feet. Eorings niadu were hot exlmwstlvc. I'olnts nt whleh more borings must he made. 11505. The rooncyiiig out of the items in thooi-if^ituil o;stitn;Uo, ii]).)|, whicii tenders were given, we understand to be something over S4,00(i,i)i)i) for the whole: is it that what you hiive understood ? — It is, 11590. And do you think now that the worlc as finis^hod uiidor ih.v c'iiangos which you have aiindod to, will ainouut to somewhere iiboui $2,o6i»,(JOO? — That is al)out whtit 1 mai Ntl'lIl'tiOII — t'uiilrMclNo. 42. Not, onouffli (iatii yet tc know lidw deep l)f)ltoni will he (nspliicod. (JfM'criilly ^ *)etween Goverii- iiient enginet'r and contractor. Line improved in 11»)21. Iluve tlicy consontcd that such uchnngo may bo made atunv locality or every locality ? — They have done nothing detinitc, as Car j^ I know, an regards it. 11C22. ll~> you mean thoy have not dissented or a-*sontod formally to it? — I believe thoy will dissent from the present mode of construclHin. 11023, Are the instructions as to those changes positively given in, to this time?—! sent the contractoi-s a memorandum of the iJiangosa., directed. 11624. When ?— On the 10th of last month. 11625. Was that the first time at Avhich the contractors wore notiti-i of those changes being mado, or being about to bo made? — In \vritin^ it was; at two points. At a previous dafe I informed Mr. McDoiiuid, one of the contractors, that at two or three points rock-borrowing ha; been adopted, but it had not been decided as to when the work wijiiM be allowed to be commenced on it. 11621. lias there been any dispute between the Government ainl the contra:;tors or their respective engineers, upon tho subject of inL'ii- surements — 1 mean either quantities or classification ? — Thocontraitoi> claimed that tho classification of loose rock is not according to thfii' ideas. They think that tho items as returned in tho estimates arc far too small. 11627. Upon what ground? — On tho ground that they say anythini; in the shape of a stone, no matter what size it may be, is loose roik, from the size of one's fist upwards. Of course I could not admit that. 11628. Are j'ou adopting the classification directed by your supoiTi: officer? — I believe I am as far as possible. The only classification, as far as loose rock is concerned as to tho size, is that anything utide; what two men can put into a cai-t alone is not to be considered as loo^<; rock, unless boulders were found in a mass or cemented. 1 do iin' know whether I gave written instructions to tho division engineer-. but certainly I stated that anything over that should be measured ami returned, or, if it was found loose, that the rock in cuttings was fouinl in an awkward position tliat would put tho contractors to greater expense in taking it out, their judgment was to be exercised in the niatter. Speaking about the loose rock matter lately, I said I wouM go into it more fully. 11629. Have the changes of line and tho grade and the consequent chanl^8*i"sumnK reduction of coit in any way affected the efficiency of the railway "> Telegraph— AlHinteiiance* Contract AO. 4* t • in a reduction of jsfot at all. I think it 18 Improved. 11630. Is there any other matter connected with this particular section which you think ought to be given in evidence in order to assist us in our investigfition ? — Not that I can think of relating to the con- tract. 11631. Is there any other matter connected with the railway geno- rally, any part of it or any work on it, which you think ought to be fivon in order to assist us in our enquiry? — Relating to the telegraph, think that a change would be beneficial. 11632. Have you found difficulties ? — We have. 11633. What are the troubles ?— The line is down a great deal ; at) least it was down during tho early spring, and up until lately it was in 1 a very bad state. Line down a good deal. imw'**' 769 JENNINQ3 ati mates are tur Ttlcvraph— MnliitniiKiicfil ll(i34. Who was tlio person roprosciUinf; tiio contractors lor the •'"""■**'* ^*^' ** luitintcnanco of the lino? — As far as my section is concerned, Mannin;^, HuiVi.Ilim'f t* k?i|) \r{Donal(J it Co. have had the maintenance for some consideralion, « t<'i<"Krii|iii iino that IS in connection willi their work. 1 believe they keep it in repair \„ npuit. foi' ibo privilege of doing their business over the line. 11035. Have you complained to them of it8 ineiliciency ? — I liavo. fhoy have spoken to mo about it, and i have telegraphed to Mr. Brown to send repairers out, which ho did. 1163G. What Ml". Brown ?— Not Mr. Brown. 1 should have said Mi. Jlacdougull. 11637. What Mr. Macdougall ? — I believe he is the superintendent nfthc lino. 11638. Where? — In Winnipeg; and last y»'.ar L telegraphed to Mr. Macdoiigall, at Thunder Bay, if 1. recollect aright. ll(!3n. Have these obstructions delayed your itusinoss ? —My busine.'-s has at times been delayed, and I have been obliget' to wait sometimes till' answers to my questions. 11640. How long have you waited? — Several days at times; in fact Mmwiism viiiiil the time of my departure I have waited three days ioran answer Now som.-^w'ii.'it, !o a telegram that I sent to Iviglo Lalce, and had not received it up to ttnprov..!. ho time I left Kat Portage to come hero on this occasion ; that is iho longest interval that I can remember of just now, but according to ijif returns sent to mo the line was in a wretched state ; now it is some- what blotter, although 1 have not got this last month's report in yet. U641. Could you say in what proportion of the time it is not in i^urini,' ■^prinu' •vdrking order, owing to defective maintenance? — I think during tho i!arfTi'ir'u'iu'i!''>ut, >[iring; as a through line, it must have been more than half tho timo ofoni.r. (lilt of order. 11C42. Is it better maintained or does it work Letter at any other reason of the year than the spring? — In winter time it works better. 11613. Can you explain tho reason? — On account of tho dryness of 'Jie atmosphere, the Avant of rain and fewer storms, tho polos are more tiiinly held in the ground with tho frost. 11644. Does tho lino go over water stretches ? — It extends over soveiul of the water stretches. 11G45. Does the ice aftbct tho UBofulnoss of tho lino ? — I have never »een the line down on the ice, but I have found it myself down in the water of tho Winnipeg River, and ordered it to be put up, and 1 have j heard of it being in tho water at other points. 11646. Then, upon the whole, do you say that it is insufficiently maintained ? — It would not be called now a first-class line. During tho spring it was certainly in a wretched condition, but repairers have Iwcn at work during the last month or six weeks. 11647. Of coureo it is not very oasy^^to understand the distinction insufflfiontiy [between a first-class line and a second-class line; but we can understand '■^*''i''«*">8'^' it you say whether it is sufficiently or insufficiently maintained ? — It is insufficiently maintained. 11648. Is there any matter pertaining to the Pacific Railway which I you think proper to give by way of evidence ? — I think not now. 49 f, ■ ■ JENNINGS 110 1 i k <-. '< RntiwHy Loca- tion— roBtrnctNo. 4S. With more tliiio prolmbly ii lifttcr lino cnulil liavo bopii laie when one can niukr changes fi'om time to time, by which largo reductions aio ctlecteii, [ think the more time you liavc, that is within a reasonable period, tlu; more you can do. 11650. Would the changes which you think are possible inatcriallv affect the line? — I do not think that material changes could bo madi-. I do not know of any, but of very minor ones. What I mean is, tliat:f the contract had not been let, and the construction people foUuwiii" us, 1 would have, perhaps, diverged toother lines and tried other points. 1 did the best [ could under tho circumstances ; but if 1 was goinf^'int.. the country to find a line I would take more time and go over a lanjn' area of country to look for a lino. 116.51. Have you any reason to know that if you had taken nimo time there would have been a niatoriaily different result ? — None what- ever. I simply make that statement on tho belief that a rough country will stand a great deal of surveying, and that it will turn out to le economical. 11652. Have you anything further to say on tho subject?— Not further that 1 can think of. !I1)lM .'..H •.i »' ■ i NIXON. Purvcyorsliip— Private trauN- a('£iou«» vvitli AIloway« Knows nothing about note for a *1,000 which ManagPi' of Bank swoars bears his emlorseriiont, Thomas Nixon's examination continued By the Chairman : — 11653. Since you gave evidence this morning, Mr. Brown imsi appeared again on our summons, and has said that, in his opinion, thoroj was no other Thomas Nixon at that time whoso name would have bceiij accepted by him on Alloway's paper, and he exprossod the opiniimj very strongly that you wore the endorsor: are youof thoBameopinioiij now? — I do not know anything about it. You can get the note lioml Alloway, I suppose, if you wish to do so. 11654. Do you say, as a matter of evidence, we can get the note iioiiij Mr, Alloway ? — No. I said I supposed you couid. I suppose Allowavf is an amenable and can be brought before yon. Mr. Brown showoil ma that thoie was a note discounted in tho month of November, I8T5, inj fifteen days, for $1,000. 11655. From what you know of Alloway's business habits, do yoa say it is likely that he would have the note now ? — I do not know any] thing about Alloway's business habits. 11656. Would you take tho trouble yourself to see if you couMi;oi tho note from AHoway ? — I shall not do it. 1 do not think it i>^ m for you to ask me. I have quite enough to do to attend to ni} oM business without attending to Alloway's. 11657. Do you wish us to understand now that you adhere to yoiiJ former statement, that you wore never an endorser upon Allowayj paper ? — I do not know anything about it. I do not remembc!,; ' not remember now endorsing any paper for W. F. Alloway. 771 NIXON ihjcct?— Notbind ,-embur, 187'). '"^ ss habits, do y do not knowiinyl adhore to yuui Swfiirs iiuiwli li- sliiinllllioivuli'llri) to conl iiiiy llml lu! dill licit I'M- Plirvrj-«r«lil|»— I'rivalf ti'iiiix* 11G5S. And not n^nKMiiboiitig it, do yon ikIIum-c to youi- formoi- 'lViI»*vHy*"*' .tatomcnt ? — That I did not? ♦ llO'.jO. Tliat you did not? — I .siippo.se 1 niiirht lo, lldtJO. Do you, 1 am a.'>lli to ^ivo to iho uowNixtm iirst I'ommission u|)on any of tho matters U])on which you have boon |','j'^^y,','|'j ''^■jjjj''^,'"'." iiiie-tioiiod ? — Yes ; I would liko to loll yon how I beciuno tirst ac(inaititod ,vith A!ioway, if you will accept it. 1 see I hero is an evitlcnt doKiro to miiko mo a partner of Mr. Alloway's, and thatdcHiro has been ovidonced by the way you have examined mo all the way through, Mr. Chairman. 1 wish now to make tho statement Ihat when 1 came to this country I I'ound, I presume some* three months after my arrival, that Alloway was a pailnor with the lion. James McKay in traiij-portin^ goods for the Government, at tho late of §5 per 100 ])Ounds lor 300 miles to Fort Pelly. Tho lion. James McKay ^'ot five cents from tho Commissioner of tho Mounted Police or his adjutant. That was tho contract; and the tirst transaction I had with this man— T mean Alloway — was hiscominj^ First tiansii(ti..u to my office and asking- payment for somo $13,500 for this service, w't'i A'i"^vay. which had been performed before I came to this countrj'. 1 then asked him what I had to do with him? and he explained to mo that he was a prtitnor of tho Hon, Jamos McKay in this contract. J just mention this to show that this man Alloway was in tho freighting business before I came here, and that will account in some measure for my transactions with him. My next transaction with him was giving him $4 per ll/O soc-jmi tnmsac- lor the same service, or for a little further service — it was really to Swan wuy.^^'"' *^""" Kiver, ten miles further than Pelly, and I really had to pay lor the looseness of the manner in which the pi-evious contract was made with McKay, as we had to pay an extra amount over and above the $5 a 100 for the contract was made to Fort Poll}' instead of to Swan l^iver, and I bad to pay for the extrs distance. This threw mo into communication with Alloway, Then you asked me about some hobbles, and you dwelt iiobiii's. piiecor. considerably on it. I have gone to Hugh Sulheiland since, and he told me that ho never paid loss than a $1,50 for a pair of hobbles, and ho is willing to state it under oath. Then there is this fi-eighting to the Norlh-West Angle. Mr, Sifton has freighted out to tlio North-West Anglo, and he is prepared to make an affidavit that he did pay $2.50 per 100 for ordinary lioight, I am not sure whether he i-aid he ever piiid less; and Charles Whitehead told mo that they luid paid $2.25. i. wish further to say that Dr. Schultz wrote a private letter to Sir Charles Tupper stating : " It can now be i oadily proved that Nixon was a partner with Alloway." [ desire to say it is a most confounded lie; that i never Denies ovim- was, directly or indirectly ; and, more than that, that Alloway took a p'uVner'wHii'' declaration before a Magistrate, that directly or indirectly, 1 had never Aiioway iuany received from him a present ; 1 had never had any commission from .unctiyor in- iiim; I never was a partnei- with him in any transaction, in any con- ^nii^Ltiy. iiection with Government supplies, or in any transaction with tho 'iovernment. Mr. Ashdown made the same declaration before a Magistrate; Mr. Bannatyne made the same declaration before a Magistrate; Mr. McTavish made tho same declaration befoie a Magiatrate; and, if I mistake not, tho Honourable James McKay did lief'ore he died ; and tliese documents i sont to the former Commission * 1^ ,■/' i '• M V \ NIXON 771^ P iirvcynrihip— 1*1 IvHtr |r>iliH« nt'lloao with AlluMay-a JARVIS. Rnllwny Coiia NtriM'li»ii— Coiitrut'tH !V 14 aiKl 15. Koiiort on lora- tion ami con- stniction. (hut (I'ic'il mo, juid uhoti I lurwurdotl l[io«o diH'iirnontN I tnadi) u iciiiks; tliut flit-y woiihljho Hiilcly Uopl iind i-i'liiriiod to mo, iis they iiiii,'lii totm part of my corlificato of charjKrtor in my life, as I lia!i ii express them on the subject? — I think I have given my oj)i; ious veiv iully in the report on the slate of the work. Xaturally enough ih.' inspection was a vei'y liurried one. It only occupied one day goin:.' and returning by train: but I have reported on the salient fcatmiMi! the woi'k. 110(8. Is there any other matter, either in connection with tlii particular portion of the railway or any other part of it, upon whidi you think it proper to give evidence so as to assist us in our iiivci^lii.'a- tion ? — I think that prol»ably my report covers all the ground on wbicnl I can speak with certainty, or on which I can throw any light whiii will bo of any use to you in your investigation. James Taylor appears before tho Commission respecting a tlainij for land expropriated for the purposes of the Pacific Jiailway, aiiJ wishes to have tho matter investigated. The Chairman : — The Commissioners find it impossible to take up the subject of claiiii' concerning lands betw^een owners, or other persons interested, andthej Government. If it is within the scope of their Commission to makoj such an enquiry, it will have to be done on some future occasion. lt»j not, therefore, necessary to decide whether it is actually within theirf duties or not. For the present, at all events, the decision is not tj enquire into that subject. Albert Todd appeared for the purpose of urging a similar claini.j The matter was disposed of in the same way. t a P. J. BROWN way (11 1'ViilfiHr racls 14 aipl !"i a similar claim. p J, Brown, hwoim and examined : l{ij the Chninnan : — IKIO'J. Where do yon live ?— I live at IiiKerHoll. IKJTO. Have yon har Oliver, Diivlflsiiii A To, one of the contractoi-H for the construction of the telegraph line :riim Lidte Supei'ior to Ked River. 11<;7-. Was the work lot by public competition ?— It was. lit!"!'*. Were you one of the persons who tendered? — No; wo did I Mit tuiid lor. Wo took the tondei' of Mr. R. T. Sutton, or Sutton iV Davidson & Co. Took ovor llm ti'nclor (iC SiittDii A TlioiniiHijii. imiisoii, oi i5ranitoru — Uliver, IDJTl. Wore you ono of the firm of Oliver, Davidson it Co.? — I was. 11075. Who were tho other members ? — Adam Oliver, of Ingovsoll ; Mi'J Joseph A. Davidson, 'f Toronto. ll()7fi. Did you take any part in the negotiations which led to tho •jiociiiing of the Sutton iV Thompson iiiterest in tho tender? — No; ixcept ho far as the arrangement with Sutton himself. Wo did tho voik, 8ii[»pli 1 the capital, put up tho security, and gave Sutton a luartor interest. Wo simply stepped into his boots, did tho whole of bo work, put up tho security fjr tho Government, and gave him a , nailer interest. That was the agreement between our firm and him- ^elf. 11077. Who took part in the negotiations which brought about thut i^ieemont? — Sutton came to Oliver and myself in the first place, and «howed us a telegram from the Department calling upon him to put up itie security within a few days. He said ho could not do it, and be Eiade us tho offer, which we accepted, Oliver went to Ottawa and put lip tho Hocurity, and Sutton assigned us the contract, and we stepped into his boots. We had no communication with the Departmental all CD tho subject, or with him, prior to his coming to Ingorsoll to see Oliver and myself. 11678. Had he the telegram with him ? — Fie had, and produced it. 1-awit. I think the telegram was calling upon him that his tender blheen accepted, and calling upon him to put up the security in three Jays, if 1 remember right. It may have been five days; but I know the time was so short that Oliver loft on the evening train, and went to Ottawa, and was only there in time to put up the security. 1107.*. The tolegi-am was addressed to Sutton, and not to Oliver, jllavidson & Co. ? — Wo knew nothing about it, and paid no attention to jit until we wore approached by Sutton with this telegram from the |ltepai-tment. 11680. Do you remember who signed the telegram? — I think it was IHi. Braun, the Secretary of the Department. 11681, And you say that the telegram stated tliat a certain time hould be given ? — That he had three days time in which to accept the jtoiitraet and put up the security. It may have been five days ; but I I'm rjuite sure it was three days. wit moss's llrni (ll because ho afterwards procured the signature of Mr. Thompson. 11688. Did he explain to \ou about the connection with Mr. Thirtkoll ?— No. 11689. Were you not informed at that time that he and Mr. Thirlki.i were interested in the matter? — Net at that time; the thing wuh al, done on the spur of the moment. The telegram that he had was tha? he had either to put up the security in three days or the tender woiil': be passed over. 11690. Do you remember whether you communicated with IL' Department after you had acquired this interest from Mr. Thomp.'firi before Mr. Oliver went to Ottawa, or was the first communication wiii the Department Mr. Oliver's presence in Ottawa? — Mr. Olivei' di; not want to go down for a week until after the nomination for South Oxford, but the reply was that the thing must be done at once, and lie went down to Ottawa next day. 11691. Do you think you saw the reply to that effect? — Veh, I remember it distinctly. 11692. Who signed it ( — Mr. Braun, Secretary of the Departmont. 11693. So that the Departmont refused to give you the time that was first asked for, and in consequence of that i-cfusal it was chw'j within the time first named to Mr. Thompson ? — Yes; within the tiiii'' first named in the telegram sent to Mr. Thompson — either three ortir.; days, as I said before. bow'^Thrrkcn'r'^ 11694. Did you ever understand from Mr. Thompson how ili. Interest had been Thirtkell's interest had bi.en disposed of? — No. disposed of ' 11695. Did you over understand from the Dcpaitment or any oi.i else? — No. 11696. When Mr. Thompson came to j'ou to explain ?—Tliomp'"- never did come to mo. (75 P. 0. BROWN )t. 1 signed ili>; nection with M: Telo(cra|»li — 'S'eniU-riujK — 11697. I mean Mr. Sutton— when Mr. Sutton canKj to you to explain <^'"'»'-»«5* «"•<• that the ti me was short and he wished to make arrHn^^omontH with hu rtgures'." "*' voii without delay, hud he any means of infoi uiiiig you of the price at which he was to get the worli ? — Yes; he showed u-* hin figures, cer- liinly; he showed us a copy of his tender. 11C98. Was that Suttcn & Thomson's tender or Hu'iou k ThirrkjU's ? -1 think it was Sutton &. Thompson's. 1 would not he sure, but 1 tiiink it was. 11099, Did he say whether it was altosrether his or whether M^'Vll/r'' ''''', 1111 1 • . ^ o II . 11 I lie matt. •!• as Ins Tiiompson and he had each an interest r — ile Ircu'ol the matter as own. inmiciitiou },i5 own. I know the agreement between Oliv i-, Davidson & Co. toie.st%^'fwus IwM with him porsonalK'. "?T"iI' *"-' '''i'"'' 11700. He led you to understand that Thomp" jn'^ name was used, not kcituse Thompson had any interest in the matter, biit ber'.ause he was U help to him? — In addition to the quarter intercMt we gave Sutton ?«00, which he informed me had to go to Mr. Thompson. I do not I Know whether it did go to him or not, but 1 know he got 8^00, 11701. Do you know whether Mr. Thirtkell male any claim aftei'- 1 wJs in respect to the contract ? — No, 1 do not, I never .-^aw Thirtkell I snd never knew the man. 11702. Do you know whether the amount at which the contract was 'iosed was the same amount as stated in the tender which he showed you, and if not, how much higher was it ? — I think it was the same itnount. I have got all the papers at home. It is scarcely fair to ask me |;ttliis hurried moment — my impression is, it is the hamo amount. 11703. Will you be aV.io fo send us the original pipers? — I think so; I wit I am not going down for a month or more, 1 have the agreement Uith Sutton, and I think 1 have the identical telegram from the Depart- rriint to him, but I would not be positive. I have all the papers together. 1170-4. You think they are still in your cust^xly at h'>me ? — That is riv impression —except when we settled with Sutton the other day — I'lhey might have been destroyed or put away. I could not say ; that is two or three months aso I settled with him. at ettect?— Veb, the Departmont. laidmenl or any one cplain?-Tliomi)": 11705. Was the settlement with him since the Commiffsion was ip))Oiiited ? — No, before. It was last March or April — I think it was. , Oliver was the 11706. Who has been the active member of the hrm ? — Mr. Oliver "ptivc im-mixT in r*> the active member in the construction. I have had charge of it Ko'ra'year^H'niVa" :ning the last year and a-half. in l-lim-l^ wftncs 11707. Are you Riill jointly interested T^ith the genliomcn named in Firm dissoivfa. |i!i';iii*m? — The firm has been dissolved. Davidson i-* out of the firm. |jlirive his interest, but Oliver still has the same inUirext. I think with ■ ■-'Government the contract has not been changed at all, it is Oliver, '•;ivi(lson & Co. 11708. With an arrangement between yoursclvta ?— Yo«, 11709. There has been no release on the part of the Government of k!y member of the tirm ? — No. 11710. Are you aware that there has be -i conhiderablo complaint nraintonauco. ^julthe manner in which the line has been maintained? — V'o«J. .,'>■-■ r" »-^' t " P. J. BROWN 776 Telearapb— Mi»int» nance. Contract Ko. 4. ThinkRtbe causes of complaint against telegraph line rest with the engineer and railway eontrac- tor. Special eause on section B. Line down ten days, the cause being outside witness's man- agenient. « « 11711. Have the complaints been upon the part of the public or bv any particular person ? — I think the cause of the complaint has boon more particularly with the engineer in charge of the line and the con. tractors as well. The contractors in doing their blasting blow the pole-; all to atoms, and then take their own time to put them up. 1 have furnished the engineers with offices and instrument-j wherever they havu asked for them. They do their own operating when it suits them, tjo away to their work, turn off the ground wire and remain away twoor three days, in one instance I remember throe days. My chief matia^'or at Fort William, Mr. Macdougall, has the whole day and date and where the thing occurred, and in several instances there is a half at located on that section, the line of poles wore put in the middle ot'thi' road bed. As soon as Mr. Rowan called my attention to the facts I applied to the J)epartment for permission to remove those poles mysol; to the side of the lino. 11712. Was that at the expense ot the Government or at your owi expense ? — At the expense of the Government. I made two applici. tions, both to Mr. Rowan and Mr. Fleming, and I am not sure but llmr 1 wrote to the Department direct on the subject, but instead of giviii: me that permission they have given it to the contractors on section R, Manning & McDonald. They took down my telegraph poles ani placed them over on the side on the cleai'od line. They place tlun. where they wish, and when they wish ; it is only recently the lint; has been down ten days on that account, that is what my foreman teli< me. I have two repairers between here and Rat Portage who aie ii|i and down the line all the time. 1171H. Is Connors one of them Y — A man named Fleming is o.io u! them, but I do not know the name of the other. Mr. Macdougall car tell his name. 1 have Mr. Oliver on B, and Mr. John Robinson ihiI section A, and another man between hero and Rat Portage, and I liavei spent within the last four months upwards of $3,000 for new poles ii. endeavouring to put the line in order. 11714. Over what portion of the line has this difficulty occurrod ii; removing the poles from the cenLi-o to the side? — On section!! frequently the poles are placed according to the instructions of tlii engineers, and they place them in the centre of the clearing. Weworel obliged, according to our contract, to clear to the width of 132 foot, ani were instructed to place them in the centre, but the engineer on ilul other end (Mr. Hazlewood was then engineer in charge), on cast oiT Eagle Lake, instructed us to put them on the side which turncil on; not to be all right. On section A the only trouble we have hau tlii.v| was in excavating; the contractor cared so little to assist us in kcepinJ up the line that they excavated about the poles, and perhaps woulll leave a foot of earth about them, and the firat wind that would coiiwl would blow them over, and I would have to send men perhaps cii,'li'}[ miles to put them up. 1 have charged in all those instances, and havej made a memorandum of the number of poles that were left in tliii| manner. The first wind that would come along would blow them ovcr.j Thinks that GUI- 11715. With the exception of section B, where the trouble is ooosj Mde of Hectlon Ii . . i .i ' i • , • t At ■ i i J there hap not sioned as you say by the careless way in which the poles have heej lorgr'uinbiing"''*^ moved, has the line been maintained in good oixJer?— I think ho; On .«ieotion B the difficulty arose in regard to remov- ing the poles from the centre to the (tide On s(-otion A con- t raetor excavated round the poles and did not leave snffltlent earth to keen them lu position. 777 P. J. BROWN of the public or by somplaint has been e line and ihe con. ^ting blow the poie^ , them up. 1 have wherever they havu en it Hiiits them, go remain away twooi My chief matuiifcr day and date and there is a half a A\\\ Rices. Then anotlier )\\ Bection B, as fii>i in the middle of the tention to the fa( ts I e these poles mysel; ent or at your cwn [ made two applica- am not sure hut tlmr lut instead of giving' ractors on section B, olep^raph poles and They place then. ly recently the !in« hat my foreman tetis Portage who are \\\ 3d Fleming is o.ie ui] Mr. Macdougall oar, r. John Eobinson (Hi Portage, and I have I [)00 for new poles in ifficulty occurred iii| ifi^. ? — On section le instructions of thfl le clearing. We wore| width of 132 foot, aiil the engineer on the charge), on cast of le which turned out )le we have had tliore .0 assist us in keoi)in^' , and perhaps woull ind that would coiiw men perhaps ci;,'hty 8e instances, and h " jat were left in t vould blow them over. I the trouble is owal , the poles have bee* rder?-I think ho; B ivel Telegraph- ma lutenaiice. think east of Eagle Lake or probably oast of Wabigoon, there has not Contract Mo. «. been really much cause for grumbling, and 1 think the same thing may be said between here and Cross Lake. It is suj-ely through that infernal region if you may so call it. 11716. You mean section B? — Yes; the great difficulty in a great many places was that there was not ground enough to sink a j)ole, and \ro had to build a frame to keep the poles up. 11717. Of what timber are the poles in thit section ? — All tamarack. 11718. 1 have an impression that Mr. Caddy, who is stationed at Q,uaiii,vofi>oiww Thunder Bay, said that some of the poles aie not tamarack? — Between here and Rat Portage i sub, let the work to Sifton, Glass & Co. Our firm i-ublet that 100 miles, and 1 was not aware of it until 1 came here about two years ago, or a year and a-half ago, that the most of the poles that they put in are poplar poles. They will all be replaced now with tamarack poles and peeled at that. My impression is that east of Hat Portage there are not a dozen poplar poles. There may be, but if there arc I have never seen them. 11719. Do you know whether thei-e are a ronsidorablc portion of ordinary pine poles ? — I do not know. 11720. Do you say that you think they are entirely tamarack poles? Sub fomractsto ■ J ^_ J _ J . J V . the cirofit that poles sliunlil l>e that they should be tamarack, tamarack poles, all subject to the approval of the engineer in charge. I have the sub-contracts at home. —1 think the great bulk, if not the whole of them, are tamarack "poles, pou.'s"^*'''^'"*' Our agreements with our sub-contractors were 11721. Do you know whether the poles put up for the purpose of replacing those that have fsillen, are of the same material as the poles oiiginally put in ? — I could not say ; but [ understood that the Depart- ment authorized Manning, McDonald k Co. to remove those poles. 11722. I am alluding to other portions of the line where repairs have been made by the repairers? — You will have to ask Horace Mac- dougall who is the manager at this end, and Neil Macdougall who is manager at the other end, at Fort William. 11723. Do you know the life of the wood used in that work and whether poplar or tamarack is likely to last the longest ?— Tamarack is the best. 11124. Upon what arrangements is the line working as to prices? — The same as Ontario rates. 11725. And for whoso benefit? — For the benefit of the contractoi- All Government messages, however, are free. 11726. With the exception of Government messages you get the l-rices paid ? — Yes ; and 1 think that the engineers abuse the privilege of the Government messages. If they want a pair of boots they will telegraph for them ; and 1 have known Mr. Caddy at Fort William to telegraph to Sarnia to send him by the next boat, seed potatoes and i^eed turnips and other things — a message that must have cost 85. I have known several instances where they sent their messages iiir every little paltry thing they want, but I have never grumbled ubout it, and I furnished them an office wherever they wanted it. I think I have some thirty or forty instruments on the line now. '■■:'ft Lino worked for heiiellt of con- tractors : nil Oov- eriiment businoss^ free. p. J. BROWN 778 Telegraplk — Maintenance* Contract No. 4, If line liad been properly under wllness'H control there would not have been the ^iiine cause for complaint. 11727. Is Mr. Macdougall in Winnipeg? — Yos ; Mi\ Horace Mae- (lougall is my agent in Winnipeg, 11728. Ts there «iiy olhertnatter in connection with this contract, or the fulfilment of it, which you think proper to give by way o| evidence ? — I do not know of anything else. 1 would say thi.s ; it ] had had the thing properly under my control I do not think there would have been the same cause for grumbling, not only on behalf of the public, but on the part of the Government, as there ha.s been. 1 may mention the delays of the engineers and their incompeten( y. \ great many of the engineers have the old way of operating, and take the message very slowly with the paper ribbon, and then with tlie most of the contractors it has been almost impossible to keep the lino in as efficient a state as it could he. 11729. Is there any other matter connected with the railvva}', in.lo. pendent of this telegraph contract, which you can expla'n so as to assist us in our investigation ? — No; 1 know nothing of the railway. I have tendered occasionally, but 1 have never been .so fi)rtutiale, (";■ unfortunate, as to get a coiiti-act. > i' .' .^ -: :i OLOUGHLIN, Ntt-el RallN— <'<'i-, Fair- man Oi Co, n ' Helping AieM'8- |»a|ici-8 — All<*|i;e(l linpro- per Inflnvncct Cooper, Fnlrman A < 'o. assisted Tuttio in connec- llon with the Winnipeg Times This assistance had no connec- tion with steel rails coi I'-.ct. Macroy O'Loughlin, sworn and examined: By Mr. Chairman : — 11730. Do you know whether Cooper, Fairman & Co , of Monlroai, were engage 1 in furnishing any supplies to the Government, or any Government officer, for the railway? — I am aware of the steel rails contract, and also a contract, I believe — I cannot say that I am actually aware of the latter that is for the supply of the spikes and bollb. 11731. Where do you live? — In Winnipeg. 11732. How long have you lived in Winnipeg? — About three yeai> and three months. 11733. What do you know about that contract? — I know nothing more than that they have a contract, but the details I know nothing about. 11734. How do you know that they had a contract ? — I was in theiv employ in Montreal previous to coming up hereon their business, and, while in their Montreal office, I understood that they had obtained ii contract by tender from the late Government, to supply steel rails to the Canadian Pacific Railway, 11735. From whom did you understand that? — I cannot say that I understood it from any one in particular but it was the general im pression in the office, and that is where I got the impression at tho time. The detail, was carried out in the private office of Mr. Cooper ami Mr, Fairman, of Montreal. 11736. Do j'ou know whether' they assisted Mr. Tattle with the con- ducting of the Tmes Newspaper ? — 1 do. 11737. Had the assistance any connection with this contract or with any other contract ? — None whatever. .■U"..-' i' 779 O'LOUGHLIN lloraco Mao out throe veins with the con- ioiUract or wilh Helping NewMa pnprra— 11738. Do you know for wliat reason the assistance was given, that ■*pe?j'iiii™uce' iMipon what ground ? — The facts I do not know of; but I understand, tuo only ivason Tuttlo known to wittii'i it least, I have always understood, that Mr. Fairman and Mr. Tuttle known to witn.ss were friends prior to Mr, Tuttle's coming to this country. I left there man A'cas'iiouia n 1877, and did not know Mr. Tuttle until after the paper was started *vai''oi7uio*'*'^ jiere — the Tiines. The only reason that 1 knew of was to assist Mr. eiomidsonriend- Tuttle, I think, on the grounds of friendship. ^'''''• 11739. Do you know whether there was any understanding between {hem, or any reason for an understanding between them, tliat the assistance was given in consequence of Mr. Tuttlo's influence with an_y Minister of the Crown or any Member of Parliament ? — 1 do not know (.f any. 11740. Mr. Luxton has mentioned your name as one who could give in wiimiixK $2it<) information upon the subjecc of this assistance, and of the connection of fo,Y!^lJ]/i"i,^j[eV,'^^.y Cooper, P^iirman & Co. with the railway: wo would like to know, if "'>te puydbielo we have not asked the question on the Bubject, what you know upon * co the whole matter or any part of it ? — Any assistance that was given to Ml". Tuttle, in Montreal or Ottawa, I know nothing whatever about it, if there was any given. The assistance that was given here amounted to, I think, $200, if I remember right, for which Mr. Tuttle gave me a 'lOte payable to Cooper Fuirraan & Co. in settlement thereof. 11741. Were you in that matter acting as agent for Cooper, Fairman <^Co.? — I had charge of Cooper, Fairman i)t Co.'s business here for two years and a-half, until I changed fi-om Cooper. Fairman & Co. to the Jlamilton Powder Co., about the middle of .January last. 11742. Was it while you had charge of Cooper, J'airmon & Co.'s business that this advance was made and note given ? — Yes. 11743. Was it negotiated through you — I mean the advance and the witness a Mackenzie FfcrtnetsUip« I'erRonally knew nothing about contract for steel rails. ]fel|»iii$; NcAV8> papers — Alie{j;efl iinpro- |ier Influence. Ccoper, Falrman A Co's. business successful. Cooper, Falrman *Co's. furuishInK Whitehead with bupplles nothing to do with the S2K) advanced on Tattle's note. 11750. Yes?— I cannot place that exactl}'. 11751. Do you remember the circumstance of Charles Mackcix.ir goin^ out of the firm ? — I kne\ personally nothing about that; that was entirely done, I believe, with Mr. Cooper and Mr. Fairman. 1 remum- ber Mr. Cooper mentioning, prior to the steel rails contract, that CIuuKm Mackenzie had retired from the business, and that they were goini; ti> continue it on alone. 1 1752. Was there any general understanding about the ostabliHhiu'.Mif at that time as to the extent of the business, whether it had been success. ful or otherwise or were there any difficulties ? — That 1 could not mu-; 1 had not been with them sufficiently long to know that. I knew nothiiir at all about their private affairs whatever. 11753. I am asking you if it was the general understanding amoriir the persons in the office?— The general understanding in the otttt'e among the clerks and employee was that they were perfectly godd, they felt quite confident. 11754. Cooper, Fairman & Co. also furnished supplies to one of tin, contractor. Mr. Whitehead ? — Yes. 11755. Had their advances anything to do with .!iat transactio!;?— Nothing that 1 am aware of. 11756. Would it have had any connection with them without yoiu being aware of it: in your opinion was there any person elso wh') would have been more aware of the reasons of the transaction tliiu, you were? — No one except Mr. Cooper or Mr. Fairman. 11757. Would they have understood it better than you did '/— Cer- tainly ; if there was any other understanding 11758. But I was led, from what you stated, to believe that it was done entirely on your own responsibility and not through thorn.'— When I say on my own responsibility, I mean on the responsibility us their representative, 1 advanced $200 of their money — Ithinkitwa- $200. 11759. Was it in obedience to instructions from your employers, or was it done on your own responsibility, assuming that they would approve of it ? — I did it on the responsibility assuming that they wnuld approve of it. 11760. Then is there any person else better able than you are, to tell the reasons for it being done ? — Not that 1 know of. 'J here is ii > other party. 11761. Is there any other matter connected in anyway, directly or indirectly, with the Pacific Kailway on which you can give us infoi nvi- tion by way of evidence ? —Nothing that 1 know of. r i i . LYNSKEY. Ballway Oper- ating— Pen>b. Branch 4c Contract 14. Thomas J. Lynskey sworn and examined : By the Chairman : — 11762. Where do you live ?— In Winnipeg. 11763. How long have you lived here ?— Since the 10th of February last. 781 LYNSKEY liii}; in tho office r — i think it wa< rouv employer-, o\ that they wotiM he than you arc, io Iw of. 'J here is iv' y way, directly oi' in give us inlonna- ■■llway Oper« ntintc— 11764. Have you had any connoction with the mjittei\s of tho ''^ ConVrn.TiV Canadian Pacific llailway ? — Since then ? 1170'5. Yes? — Yes; but none before that. 11766. In what way liave you ninco then? — As supoi-iritcndent of sinco ivhruarv, iho operating of tho linos. ^rt'oTI.^'.ir.Ki:'" 117i'7. What linos— between wliat points? — Between J'hiierson and I'V.n'^rson^ma C'ross Lake. '■'•"s** Luke. 11768 From whom did you receive youi- appointment ?— From tho Minister of Jiiilways. 11769. VVhiit are your duties? — I have chai-^o of tho frcigiit and Duttc« oihtmr. passengers, and the I'unning of all trains and tho main working of it. l!770. What t-taff have you l)08idos yourself lo manage that liusinoss? — i lu;ve an accountant acting as cashier, an auditor who is acting as auditor and paymaster, a store keeper, two clerks, and four iltrks in tho accountant's and auditor's departments; and in my f)wn otlice I have one clerk and two train despatchers. 11771. Are tho movements of the trains conducted by telegraph ? — By telegraph when in operation. 11772. Who built tho telegraph on the Pembina Branch ? — I under- that lo im wltli (lovcrninf^nt IS iiu _t(,epj. y,j sull.T- anco. 10th of February Tflegrnpli. qand that it has been "built by tho North-Woat Telegraph Co,, wel*; '^ iSi' ii mid it was formerly on the west bank of Red Kiver. At the time ot Company." the building of tho branch it was moved on to the Pembina Bianili, but I cannot say fiom my own knowledge. 117(3. Do you know if it is (xovernmont property in any way ? — Xo; 1 think not. 11774. What is tho arrangement between tho ^Jovernment and tho No iirran>;onient, (ompany concerning it ? — As far as I can understand there urnmgemout at present, they arc there on sufferance. 11775. Arc tho mesf-agos paid for on any particular tariff? — The Govonnnpnt s^cis lOiTidar tariff, and the (xovernment gets 25 per cent, reduction under f*'','T.''.''."',?r*^ ■^ • 1 1 I i 1 TT /"< 11 regular tarlir. ho arrangement with the late lessees. Upper iv Co., and that arrange- ironl continues at the present time. 11776. Could you say, in round numbers, what is the expense to the (ii'vernment for messages over this branch ? — T could not say, but I ihink my own will average about $25 a month, but Mr. Schreiber's and ilr. Owen's are separate accounts and 1 do not know. I could only give you in connection with my own office. This arrangement I speak of only extends from Winnipeg southwards — from Winnipeg to St. Vincent. 11777. There is no telegraph on the Pembina Branch north on the Telegraph ar- iine? — No, it is on the west side of the ; river and is very unsatis- unsltibVuctory-'^^ factory to have it work on the west line, because there is a great deal of delay and loss for not having it even to Birds Hill where we were I working steam shovels and ballast trains. We have to work it by I rules that they will cross at certain points. Train.s that are delayed I have to stop there in case another train is passing. 11778. So that the movements of the train cannot be worked from [lime to time as occasion may require, but they aro worked by some previous arrangement? — Y'ew. '^ LYNSKEY 782 I « .i, BnllwHy Opcr- ntinK— Feiiilt. Branrli A Contrat't 14. AVlicti witin'HS took chii"" '!• r()ii(i-li(' (.mji,. nectod with it when you took cliargc ? — The load-bod was in a very bad coridiLion. Thoio was iiboiit twonty-si.K niiles that iitid u |i,,|jj coating ot" ballast, say bctwcon St. Boniface and Nivorvillo, and a liitlr l)(!yoiid Niverville the other poi'tion had no ballast at all. 11780. And what else? — No water tanks on the lino. Wo hail t, syphon watcf tVom the rivei', which often took lont^er fo get the \\;iui i-c'(|uiied than the time it took to run between St. Vincent ami St. iJoiiifaco. 11781. Do you moan that the whole time during whicli the imiu was in motion would not be as much as the time taken to procure tlic water to run the train?— In many cases. Il78i!. Has this defect been remedied ? — It has been romcdiuij, There is a tank containing 50,000 gallons erected at Emerson, another at Otterburn, and one at St. Boniface, and there are two more, one a! Niverville an i one at Dominion City, now in course of construction. 11783. Are these answering the requirements? — They will answer fully the requirements this winter. 11784. Has the defect in the road-bed and track of which you spoak becn remedied ? — Yes. The track between Emerson and St. Bonitac is very nearly complete now, fully ballasted. The portion betweeiil St. Boniface and JNiverville, which had formerly one coat of ballast, wo are going over now and putting it up to the full standard. Thoj point from there to Emerson is fully ballasted and the road is in veiy good order now. 11785. Wfvs the condition in which you found the road-bed. wlu;; you took charge, attributable to the operation of frost going out of ihei ground, or was it from the improper formation of the road-bed?—! think the hod was made too wide, and the water lay on it, as well ;hi the nature of the soil. Just immediately after the rainy season com f menced the ties and rails went down out of sight, and wo had to ploiii:: the mud with the cow-catcher in going over it, and had to slacken {U\ speed to at least ten miles an hour. \\1>.G. Do you mean that is the greatest speeil at which it was^afo'.)! run the trains?— A good part of the road it was, in fact in many [laitsj of it wo had to reduce the speed to five or six miles an hour. 11787. Do you consider if the road-bed had been narrower, thai trouble would have been prevented? — To a certain extent \ believe iJ would. 11788. What did you think of the operation of the frost or l'aill^ i . .'spring, now as the road \a at present finished? — I think it will liav vary little eticct on it. 1 1789. Is there plenty of drainage? — There is a good drainage ; tlioii ai'c deep drains on each side, and between twelve and eighteen ineliei of gravel on the road bed. 11700. What accommodation did you find in the buildings at the timj you took charge ? — The buildings between I'lmerson and St. Bonitkl were very fair, they were new buildings, the same as we have at pre?eiil[ At St. Boniface the buildings were defective, in fact they did notatiii one-tenth of the freight acconiraadation that is required, then or \m 7&3 LYN8KEY iroi)crlk> coii- ,vas in a very vt htid a lij;ht llo, and a litllo 1. e. Wo \\i\A {> o got the \vau.\ iiicont and St. .vliic'i the iniiii to prociu-e ihe been romcdiiHl, inorson, another two more, one a; ' construction. hey will answer which you speak and St. Bonit'aiv portion betweeu e coat of ballast, 11 standard. Thej lie road is in veiy ! 10 road-bed, whei; st going outofihe the road-hed?-!| on it, as well ;h| ainy season eom-| wo had to plouiri: j uid tit slacken iL- Ivhich it was cafe 1)1 |fact.inmanyii:ii'ls| Ian hour. |en narrower, thstl 5XteMt I. beliove i'^ le frost or rain> in llhink it will \yM lod drainage ;thorj lid oighteen inchei^ Lildingsattheiimj 1 and St. BonitiicJ (wehaveatpreseol I they did not atloij Lired, then or no^ ■nllivnjr Oper- II 1 1 UK— I put up a shod about 150 foot, temporarily to cover in the freight until ''!!!"?,*;, "'"'J*'i*!i there is a new building erected. inOl. IIuvo orders been given to oroct buildings which you consider to bo sufliciont? — \ think not yet; it is under consideration, and I think will bo attended to very shortly now for the winter. 11792. So as to make tliem useful for the winter? — I think so. 11793. Can it bo done'!' — Yes; it could bo done in four or Hvowociks. There is no plastering, it is all wood work. If the piles wore driven the building can bo put up in four or Hvo weal-r - Hallway 0|K-r< atliiir— l*«mb. Braiioh A Contract 14 FoiiiTl buslncNs good. 11807. How did you liiidit'.'' — I found it vory ^ood. At tlio lii,,i month, Fol.cuai-y, tho St. I'liul road wuh protty well blocicol witl, snow, and most of March it was blocked, anil when the sciisoi, a 100 cai'8 a day, Llio latter ond of March, so that our worlc caino ail at once. How he iniina«iM) 11808. IIow tlid you mana/,^0 with tlio short rolIin<^ stock '/ — I ha-i i.i roVuiig siolu.' ^^'"'"'^ ^''"'^" "iyl't '^"'^ *^'=^y. "■'"^* '^''l'^ *^'i^'" "" ^''^ move. The initmoiit a train came in 1 had to send it I'ij^ht back with a fresh crew uii ii. 11800. Was there any other dilUcuHy with wliich you had tocoiili'inl at tho l)0^inning? — I tliink these wore tho chief ditHculties. Sulk of business formorl water rail. Rolling stock at present. 11810. What sort of business has 1 hero i)eon (h)ne while yoii \\n\\, 'liom'by'^^ been liero? — It is getting' brisk, and steadily increasing. The bu.nii].'., formerly done by water here has been d'lno this year — the bulk ol ii— . by rail. 11811. JIavo both departments — ! mean freight anti jjasscni^'oi — kept up? — liotli freight and ])assengei' have ke|)t up, and are now increasing. At present we have ton locomotives, ninety flat cars, six box- cars of our own, and about ton from the Intercolonial Jiailway, Wu do not miss the box car service us much as tho flat, for all through frci;,'h; comes in foreign cars, and wo get tho use of them by paying the mileage on them. 11812. Is there ti further supply of car.s under contract ? — Yo-<; tin iv are eighty new flat cars, 1 understand, ordered, and £' bout lifty box cin>, 1181,3. As to passenger cars? — Ltitely I rooeived twonewpasseiifj;cr^ cars and three new baggtigo and postal cars, and L understand tlu'iv are two more passenger coaches to follow. for the earnings of tlu: Yes. KIglif.y lliit and tilty bo.t cars ortleretl. Vasscnspr anti <)af;jiano cars increasing. 1181-4. Did you keep separate accounts for the >mbina Branch and the main lino oast of Selkirk?— Passenger travel good. Government ■alone interested in receipts. Karnlng.s oT road from Cross Lake to Emerson from 10th February to ^iOth June, »104,97.5.«tt. Pom 11815. How has the business been on the main line east of Selkirk.' — Tho passenger travel has been vory good, an average of tifiy p.i.v scngers every trip that we go, in and out each waj''. 1181G. Is that portion of tho lino working entirely on Govcnunei.i account? — On (Tovercmont account. 11817- Tho contractors have no interest in tho receipts iiow'.'- Not to my knowledge. 11818. Uo you know, in round numbers, what tho net earnings of tho Pembina Branch proper has been since you have been on it? — I couk! not give you the figures without looking to the accounts. I have conii' away hurriedly from the office, I did not bring thom ; but I can toll you what they were for the first five months, from the 10th Fobruaiy to the 30th June. 11810. That will be sufficient?— $104,975.09. 11820. Is that the net earnings? — Yes, the net earnings; that isj taking from Cj'Oss Lake to Emerson. II 821; I did not speak of tho Emerson Branch, but that will answer, You have deducted from the gross, expenses for labour and all runniiiijj expenses ? — Yep. 785 LYNSKEY on Govcnuiu'i,'. receipts now ? - jarniiigs; that u Rllllt%il,V <»|M-r ■ IN'iiili. Ilriticli «^ <'*. 11^1!'). The maintenanee of the road? — Tiie maintenance of the roail i> I'ar as keeping up the track and lelegraph goes. 118'iO. IFow olten are yotir returns made to the Department ?- Monthly. 118-7. Do those returns exhibit the not earnings ? — Yes. 11828. Not the gro^s earriings ?— Net and gross. ll!-2:). Jn deducting from the gross earnings have you deduct<-d the imiiasMnj.' romi eXDCiises for balla&ting and completing the road ? — No. ""' i>ii"'<'a-biit, 1 1 ir. ■ 1 I'lu li ji •! .1 • 1 f tlirst! atrc'i't. only iind a hall, we experienced any ditnculty — hvo miles this side oi smaii portion ot WorliiiiK I'x- poiiRi'is anil niiiln< tiuianre".') jmt (•(Mit. of (iross eurnlns^s. liinerson. llnu. 11840. Do you know whether it was understood that there was more More snow winiiT ?ni)w last season than usual ? — I undoi stood that llieie was more snow o/aiiy'«eason for last year than there was for twenty years, in any one season before. 1 |^^^'''i?'^,y y®'}™;, am quite satisfied that the drift was a good deal heavier down in Min- Mhinosota ti'ian "Mota than in the North-West, in tlie district where I was operating. '" Munitoba. 50 >»■> t 1 LYNSKEY 78fi I I .iA,.''} ^ ■■.*■ f t . r r Uvay 0|iei'- Fniiilt iii'Hiioli Jt <'t 1 I. Homeoxcciitlonal UXpOIISH-J Ml pic- Ht.'iit for Willi t oi UCOCmilloillitlnil. Uopnirs III |)ri- Nciit tliint' III t lit- Hound llouMi! lit Hi'Iklrk. tlu'i'c licliiir nosutflclfUt Hcrdiiiii'oilal ion yet. ■NViniilpi'K till best Nltu:xt,ion lor ri>pairliii,' sIkmN. WjlBtolsldiUKS b('inj' roini'dicil. , i ; * • ' 118H. Do voii think timl (lio rost of llio your, licyoinl iIkkc iiv,> rnoriilis, is likoiy to rui|iiii'u tlio Miiriit' iifopDrlioii of oxpondiiiiro— thai JH, tlio Miimo poiTcntiif^o of llio eaiiiin^s? — I think not. 11S42. Will thoro bo much ditlbronco, in your opinion ?—'riiLMr will ho considoiiililc 1184.'). Tho work then whs ji ^ooil doiil inoro oxponsivu'.'' — Wu |,.„| to keep men iiifjht and day in tho tm^^Mnos to keo|) thoni Iroin I'loe.'.iriir in consciiucncc of havintr no sheds, and wi' had, in ('(iii>iOi|i; "\qq (q koop thctn coiisuining I'uol all tho limo. It is vory oxponsi'- nH44. Thon do you mean that 3'ou consider that tbi- wIkiIo vuiii tho net oarnin^'s will [)o nioro than 25 per cont of the .nos eariiiiprsy — 1 think it will be. 1184'). The muintenanco and working expenses for the five hkhiiIi- would bo about throo-iiuaitors of the whole gros* eai-nings ? — Vo-,. 1184(1. Hut Vdii think th:it foi- the i-est of tho period the inuiiitiiiaiic,. and working ex|)enses would be a smaller pro]iortioii of the gi'(i>- earnings ? — Yes. 11847. Wliore do you make the repairs to your rolling slock- y—Oi; the sidings pi-incipally, so far. At present, we are doing whal litil,. repairs we have at Si^lkirk, in the round liouse. 11848. TIavo you sutficiont accommodation there for tlie lejjiiir.s m: your lino? — Wo have not. 11841*. Moi' at St. Moiiifae we will havo the workshops. It i- under consideration. 11854. Have you sidings enoiigl) to operate the i-oad conveniently / — Wo havo not — not for tbo growing traltic that is at the head poiiii bore, St. Boniface and Winnipeg; wo havo along the line at all tlic small stations. 11855. Is that being remedied ? — Yes. There have been sidings put down at Teltord, Darwin, Whitemouth, Shelly and Tindall. Tlioiv wore five new sidings put down this season — ono at St. Norbert, Niver villo, Dufrost, and Arnaud, Dominion City, have been made anil ballasted, so that they are now ready for use, and at Emerson there are very largo sidings put down. 1185G. Who conducts the operations of putting in the sidings?— The construction department. 11857. That is not under your supervision ? — No; it is not under my supervision. It is under Mr. Schreiber, or Mr. Kowan. ^BKlfS—SHCT 7S7 LYNGKEY RnHwnjr np«-r- iiiiiiK llHr)H. Upon 11,0 whole, mv tlii'iv siiMlnoiil i'.icili'ii's Ih';ii„' or nlmnt, ''a"<'V„"|!;;;.V'1V Id la' alloi'ilc)hm- WdiUiii,' itt tin- '''"'■'— Kvrr,viiiiii« n. ■.•(!. Vcs ; cwiytiiin;^ is boiiii;; (li>iii« ih'it cmii Im iImih! '1(i In tlio pi'o^i'Ut tiru'. ''il t)<''iim iloiin. 11S,')!I. Do 3'ou icnuMiiltor wliolluT tlii' (loc|»cst, strnw 'liit'ts u'li.-li iii,. ions: nmss ydi lill i to I'Olili'nd wilii Wi'i'i! at J)hlrt's whore iIm roul l)eil sV;i'^ liiL;liei' J!/|'|\'s"H',Vi',"*|,'iitH than tlio level oi' {\w priiirio <»i' nearly even with it? — Nearly lUtMi wht-ir tht> ilid willi it, uml eausoii by (ho loii;^ ^luss an i weo(is allowi.' 1 to j^inw '"'''"'■• without hoiii^ Inifiit down or (mU. in tlie fall. TlH^y hold the snow and iicciiiHulali' il on tho traek. I helii-vo d' IIk^ wei'ds and ;^Ta'"a(i or several cattle killed between Selkirk and here. The fence was burnt wa,*,t ,','i''I.?iI'iC«. down in tlie spring, and in several places wt; had eight or nine lio'iii of cattle killed. 11871. Ih the fencing contracted tor oi' in progress of constiuction ? -It is under contract, and the wire is hero now, or part of it. 11872. Is there any other matter which you think would l>e prf)por to give by way of evidence, so as to assist us in our enquiry? — I do not tliink there is that I have not given fully. 501 r NOUN 788 ,' ■»' ■ ■ Sri^ion'fi Pur- vi-yorship - Carrying' Mails. i'^M*. I' Mail froin Winni- l>eK to section 1."). Five stations. Mail sent to Noi-tti- W est Aiij^lo liy liorses and from Nortli West Ans'lf ')y funoe. i'ontriieloi' i o Cii rry m st i I lor seven montlis. Aluustin XdLt.v, swoni tiiid exumiiieil ; By the Chtirni'in: — Ml" Henry Clarke acting as Tntorpreter. 11873. Whero <1<» yon livo ?— Stc. Anne's, Point dii Clicno, ('oiimv Provenclio;'. 1187-J. How long have yoa lived there?— Ten years. 118(0. Have you c'>ine of jonr own accord to give evidence liet'or.' this Commission? — Yes; [ came to this Court voluntarily to :riv,. evidence. 11876. Upon what tnatter do you consider it propei- that you shn\\\ i be exaniined ? — 1 presume it is on the question of carrying the m:til. 1 1877. Between what points ? — From the office of the engineers if, Winnipeg to section 15. 11878. \Yhat do you know upon that suhject?— I was here in thr month of April wh^n W. Alloway came and spoke to me in front oi iiatuuityne's door oii iMain btreet. 11870. What he did he say ? — lie said : " I have a contract to irivc for carrying the mail up to the Xorth-West Angle, and Thoinjisun Im.1 mc that you are the best man to do it." 11880. How often was it iir<>posed that the mail should be carried?— Once a week. 11881. Were you to go direct to the end of that distance, or was it to be delivered at ditlbront j)oints ? — I have to leave the mail at flvy tlill'erent places. 11882. Was tiiero ai'y arrangement as to the means by uhirh it should lie carried i' — From Winnipeg to the North-West Angle it \v,v to be sent bv horses, ami from the North-West Angle it was to he -i-ii by carioe to be delivered at the ditt'erent stations along the line •')' section 15. '' 118''*'o. Was it part of the agreement that this mail shoidd beciuiini by way of the North-VVest Angle, and not by any northern course?— I was obliged to pass by the North-Wost Angle. It was the only mn'r by Adii(di we could arrive at the destiiuition of the mails. Tlic miti was not completed to Cross '^iake. 1188}. Did you conclude any agreemetit ov die subject ? — Vc>. 11885. For how long a period ? — To the best of my reculletti.i:, w;i> i'or seven months. 11886. Do you remember the time it began ? — 1 signed the ' for it on the sixteenth of April. 11887. Of what year? — 1 do not rememl>er exactly the year, Iml i; is about tl.ree years ago. 1 can ascertain it after 1. return home; bull think it will bo about three years next April. n88S. Did you outer into more than one agreement on this siiliji with Aiioway? — No; 1 made but the oiu) contract tor carryiiij< it mail. 11881). Bid von close an agreement at the first interview? — N". returned home but came back before 1 signed the contract. ?89 NOLIN Chciie, Cuuiity aid be curried?— •110(1 the I'Miitm ll'^iH). Did you jirrivo at a vcr-hal un'!cM>(.'iri.lintr upon IIk^ fiist iHcasioii ? — It. Aviis iii)dur;st()()(l ix-lore 1 Uul in itnutc, lh;il 1 was lo iciuni in tlie couri-e (jf'a coinilo <»t 'iny^ u> n^n 'Ant conf.r'act, 1180'. Tlion the torms upon which llio coi lra"t wan to ho si:^ned vcic tiii.'illy a^irced u])()n at the tiisL interview ? — Vc.-* ; and I helieve iif 1i:m1 the coutfacf ukhIc durint;- my alHtMnc, ix-ady fnr ^i;^hat(iie. llo'.lJ. Wliai ])ricc was paid to you foi- ihii (MM'virc ? 8:^:,'") a iiHUilh. v«'y II i;ii rorhal afrn-ffni-n' ilwi' this soivice $'."_'.'i paid witness foii-rti-ryliiiitiiiUl. AfcKay said to liUii tliat Allowiiy \v;is in;il;injr ^-no' 1)1- ^.lllll il, iiiuiil li out of liiiii ou iIk) i]';n;(\ to perlorin the service for S2."r0 a month, I was sitting' in Allowny'- ofTicc which was liirectiy opposite Mr. Xixun's ofticc. Jle sai:r otl'er tlian that i had ask(!d, but T refused. When Alloway fetiirficd fo his owti otlic'e iioia Nixoii's otKce, ho said: " 1 will tz'wa yoii 8'i()0 a month."' I iL'fii-iMl. I said then : " I will take it for g'J JO a rnotilh." He said ao-.-iiu : ■ Wait awhile," and left the office and cro.^sin;^ the ntrcet again, and ,>o on three or four times. At hist he agreed U) give mo ^^25, which J accepted. 1189."). Did he go each time that he crossed to Xixon'soffice ?— There wa-< only that j'laee thut he coul; go to, and then! wa-^ only that house where Nixoii's olVii-e, was. I air, perfectly well aware that he was going there to consult with scnebody, for every time he returned he otl'ered a little more until we .tgrood on (he 8225. 118!)(). Had you any other reason than that appr;arnnc(r of Alloway consulting with sonnbody else, to lead you to hupj>'«-e that any one el>c Ihaii Vlloway was interested in the harirain ? — 1 knew that Allo- way was in (he h.'ibit of getting till the contract'* from Nixoti, and for that reason, whi^n ho went there to consult with him I was satistied that th' • was sotntthing going on between the.'n, IIS07. Had you any other bargain for carrying the mail between any other points with Alloway? — The 22nd of Juf»c, following (hat lime. 1 enteied into an arrangement with Alloway for carrying the mail to the North- West Angle, that was the mail that was going to Fort fiances. 11898. IIow far were you to earry that mail ? — 110 miles from here no miles, to the North-AVest Anglo. 11809. IIow often did yon undeitake to carry the mail?- Once a Once a week. ^veek. 11900. In what jdace did you make that arrangement with Alloway ? —It was hero in town. Alloway met me on tlie Hlreet and brought me to the Post Office ; I signed no contract, but did tlie whole thing verbally. On 2\!n(i June, agreod with Allowiiy to carry mail to North- west Ansic from Fort Francos. •i :j '1 .t' ^m NOUN 790 '^ i . . *> » ■ ». Bixon'K Pill- Carry ill); Jtlailx. Allowny hjid tokl hi III he was to ^I't. such a coiitract, and would turn ii over to hhii. $15011 nioiitb. llDOl. J>id joii iiiako :iii iiiTung'emeiit, al tlio i'w.-^t interview V He liad already sjx^keii lo ine jj.'cviously, saying- thai ho was buch a coiiirael, and tlia lie wa-- g'Oiii^ to turn it over lo mo M'Oiiig !o K(,t, Used 1\v(i horses , bill wo did not see anv thingofit. Atlfcui'l (/f tlio time lor which 1 eonliac ted, Alloway came lo me again i;i,ds.ii(l the contractors were ready to lake ii for SlliO a month, and if 1 woiilit take itfdi' the same price, hi would give it to me. Voii will ha\o " the ])!cference if you wdl taliuer-s. '»"b^ 1190&. Then i;. was not on horr-et>ack, but in some vehicle? — It \v:w always carried in a vehii le that 1 had made tbi' the pni-pose, in the slylc of a bin k board. Then 1 aUvays had two men and acjuioe waiui.j;. The men with the eanoes look the mail from ihe iSoi'th-Wcst Aimlcio Lake Deception where ihe iwo men separated. They had eighlet'ii miles each to make. There w'ere live sialions, and Oi/o man luiil logo to iiat Portage, and [.hv other returned by the way of section 14. 11909. About how long did it occupy a team to carry the mail frcaii Winnijieg to ihe Xorth-West Angle ? — The mail was given to me heiv on Satuiiiay. iSatuniay we too,; it to my house out ihirly-l wo inile^tD Pointo Uii Lhene. Wo remained there over Sunday. On Monday wo started, and we returned to my house by Thursday evening. Wo iiovor mitjsed our time. We were always exact. 11910. At er starting on the Monday, at what time would you roach the North We^t Angle ? — Always twodaj's from my house to the North- West Angi • and two days lo return. I kept relays of horses on the rc-:;d, a. id the mail was always delivered here on Friday, ho thr.t it jimt took the round week. 11911. In ordinary freighting how long would ' j the aver.'jgo time taken to go fiom Wirinijjog to the North-West A:.g'e witb-oUt refer- ence to nniil cai'rying? — We carried fi'eight — that is, myt")!(' and my brothers, carried treight for ihe Government for • r?reu yc*'.!:^ from bere to the Noi'tb- West Angle. They always allowed ub seven days to i,'o and leluriii, that is starting fhmi Pointe du Cheue, thirty-two miles from heie and return seven days. Sometimes it took us more; somo- rv- E^^*' > *-:"W 791 NOUN orvicw V—Hc times Ics^. That is before the road was buiU, and while Uioy wej-e iiiiildin<:; the Dawson Eoute. 11!U2. l>o you mean seven days tioin Pointcdii Chene to the North West Anglo and back, or from Winnipeg to the North-West Angle luid back ? — From my place to the North-West Angle and back; this was with hoi'ses. If we went with oxen it took longer. 11913. After the Dawson route was made, liow long would it take tor an ordinary team to taUe an oidinary load from Winnipeg to the Xoith-West Angle ?— We could go in about seven days from hero to the North-West Anglo and back, taking a load i me way ; but a great ileal depended on the state of the roads. 11914. At some seasons it toolc longer and some less r— When the roads wei-e good we could do it fastej- than that. When they were bad, of course, we could not tlo it so fast. Wo have been from my Ijduso to the North-West Angle and back in four days. When J speak of seven days I wish it to bo understood that we worked for the iovernment lor years, as much as seven months in the year, and it las an understanding that we sliould be allowed seven d.'iys for the iiui d trip iVom my house to the North-Wcst Angle and back. 11915. What was considered in the year of 187.") to be a fair price lor the use of a team and vehicle, and a man's services as a driver? — l>hould say that a reasonable price for a man and team for the service iliat you have mentioned, would be about S-t or $t.5() per da}'. AVe leccived moic than that sometimes, sometimes less, but 1 give that as ilio average. For my own j art I would have done that service lor .?la day, 1 have done it for less than that for the (Jovernment. jI'.i.i!. Have you been accustomed to the juirchase and sale of horses lit ditluicn* times, and particularly about the^^years 1875 or 1870? — Vi's; liial lias been my special businesis buying and belling horses. II''.. About the year 1875 what was a fair ]irice for a good hall- b;vi.u ii I'iO ? - For a good cart horse tho price would be about 85U; ;h: w 'uk\ bo a good cart hoi-se. 11918. >ii))|/ ;;o they were selected carefully lor the ])urposo of lunying K: v, i over long dhstanccs, what could horses he obtained lor lor that [urpo-ie ? — When I speak of a good ]ior> ., ''->, '■.■■y !' i ■ « i« '.■■'•%: i . IVIxoii'x Pni-- vvyorshiji— Buying Horises. Fi-t'iglitillg. ISVrumd iSTd livislillrm to N ? — When the Dawson route was tiivi opiMicil we .not S-J per 100 lbs. for freio'htiui? fVoin hereto the Xorth-W'cKi Angle, and after that the price wiis reclucedto (I.s. sterlino-, or Sl.,jii 11921. Was the Dawson route open hoforo the year I87,)?— Th,. Dawson Jiouto was opened about the year 1870, after Ihc troons arriveil. It wiis on the arrival of the sec dti expedition of ti-oops, thoy caiiic iiv the hawson route and we ctr ried their freight. I mean llly^L•lf and my brothore. 11!)25. i> ^i-iT any othci- matter connected with the purvovorV oflice (Mr. Ni 1, or with the I'acilic Railway upon whirh you c;ui <'ive evidence? — I >■.. u)d a great lot of freight for them, and I boug ht, sonic old wtiggons tVom him — old waggons and old harness that had been condemned by the Government and left at ditforent stations aloni' the roatl. 1192G. To whom did you pay the money? — Alloway retained tlu' money on my contract with him. In my freighting for the odice, whin 1 would make my monthly claim Alloway would retain the price nf those things out of my estimatCK. 1 had charge of a lot of their tliini,'> at my house for '. whole year, and they never paid me for it. 11927. Was this property the property of the Government or of Mr. j Alloway? — Yes; it belonged to the Government. Mr, Nixon gave me an order *.o pick up all this property belonging to the Govern luont, and j bring it to my house and take care of it. 11928. Did the property which you bought belong to the (Juverii- ment ? — Yes ; what I bought from them belonged to the Govcinnioni. It had been used on the Dawson route. 11929. With whom did you make the bargain about the prico at! which you bought it? — It was with Alloway and Nixon both. 11930. Were lhe3" always together when you made a bargain.' They were together at the time that I bought those waggons. 11981. Did they consult together about fixing the price, or did on* of them fix the price? — Nixon appeared to want a higher price, .iiid Alloway seemed to be saying to him : " Better give it to him ; itisallj old stutf." There wore three old waggons, and a lot of old liroko htirness. I paid them $93 for the lot. 11932. Who owed you this money from which this pi'ice wasdeducteii] — It was Alloway who owed mo the money from which the price wai deducted. 11933. Do you know whether Nixon agreed that this price might b«j deducted from what was owing by Alloway? — Wh?n I bought iliel things in question, I said : "I htivo not the money to pay you" toNixinj Alloway said : " It does not matter." Alloway was interpreting fonnC in the matter. He said : " It is no matter, you can take the things, and at the end of the month the price will be deducted from the amount f havo to pay." Nixon consented to that. 11934. Do you know about what date you made this purchase?-! think — 1 am not verj' positive as to the date— but I think it wasabouf 703 NOLIN NixoiTH Piir- v< ,v«irMlii|i- .I'ollor-, 1 do not tbe inoiitli (if Sc'ptcinbci' of Iho saiiui ^'i^'iii' thut [ made tlio coiiti act. **'*'*■ "•'"'"' , with hill), i think it must he about the ye:iv 1S77. 1 coii! 1 a>(.-eitaiii iii«««rcss. the dale exactly if 1 wore at home, and hx:)l;iiiu' at my pajiers. llO'Jo. -Did you get any roeeipt in vvi'iting ibi- tlie ])iice .)f this property, which was deducted irom the money coming to you !'}• Allo- \v;iy ? — I do not third< 1. cUd. Tliey had to pay mo S --5 e/ery mouth, and they simply deducted that iVum tiie amount tlie}' iuid to jiay me. ll!i.'!(). Is there any other matter U])ou whicdi you can give evidence, 50 as to assist us in our enquiry ? — I am I'atlier rehiclanl to speak,! ahvnys worked for them. 11'J;j7. You liavo sworn tliat 3'ou windd spoalv ? — There ma\' be a wuius-'s ..m i^rout many things that I miglit remember, il'l were (jiiestioned, or liad n\'\i)!u sierling for each — S'jo. Each ox had a harness and cart with it, at Cl."^) stcrUng. 11938. Do you know whether that sale was {"ov the Govciiimetit —I mean was the property bought to be sold to the Government ? — I could not say, as it was not myself sold them ; it was my son. 11939. Is there any other matter? — No; 1 do not think there is. 11940. Was that about the ordinary price fbi* an ox and cart ?— That was rathci- a high price at the time. 119-il. Did you come from your home to give this evidence, or did you come on your own business to Winnipeg ? — I came for the purpose of giving my evidence. iii.- g to the (ioVCl'lrj the Goverumcm. lade a bargaii'.'.'-i W. T. Jennin(}8' examination continued : JENNINGS. % . Bailwny t oi» the Chairman : — Mti-in,«i **"""*' This would in no way alter the w^orking of the line as compared with the former arrangement. 11943. Do you mean that this change makes the property a less valuable one tor the present but not less useful ? — It does not make ii less useful. It makes it less valuable in a monetary sense, but not from the working point of view. 11944. Have you estimated what the probable cost will bo to fill in Ui-pia.itii; tr.stif the trestle work so as to make it a solid bank eventually ?— The dif- I'.f,.';;;";',';!';.';,""'^" feience between the two estimates made np by me rcpi'eseiits the $'»"<».'«xi. iliffoienco of the two estimates referred to in my evidence. 11945. Could )'0u toll me now ? — $500,000 — that is by the prices in the contract. 11946. Then the saving with the trestle work as at present used would be $1,500,000 ?— No; $500,000 is the difference. i7 ' I ■ ,' ,^^r-^ JENNINGS 794 ., ' . t ,i , » f| l|^ •% ^ '.V ^ ^*^ •v\J&- ,,.'W.'' : • -i' Il»ll\v»y ('on> Htrnt'lioii — Colli i-iK-t >'<>. Iti, I voiil ual savhii * I, I Nil 1,1 II 111. CnlltlMcl Jilfidllicd, use »>r iiiii.>.Ui'^ lifiHi; iillowi'd 111)47. 1 lliiiilc you t^uid lliiit tho Miving on tlic Avliolo work nf,sei'ti„|, 42 would bo about «l,r)00,OOU ?— Yes. 110 13. That iiichulos llio trestle work in its present pvopofied sliapu? — It d<.e^;. ir.)4I>. But if that is convortei into a solid onibankmoiit iIumi the suvin. Has this been jjo-.itively adopted, or is it under lii.-ciis.sjoii -^lill ? — It has been positively adopted, and tho work is now goiiiij;i)n. No iloulit thai Ihi' cliaiiirc (jf j^inde has diminished I'oclc ciittin'r. liock-borrowlnv; In soini' places, rock base in others used for eiiil)ankmenls across water stretches. llD.li. .\rr. ^Manning's solicitor !-eemod to think that it was >til! ai! I'orn (jiioliou ; that some of these (duingos had not been liiiiilly antli.)!i/-ud, and, in consequence, that they were n(jt able to ]doec'C(l \vi;h iiicir wc'ik on it, and llicrci'ore I wi-h you to be jnu'lii'ii'iii' as lo youi' : iiswei' to that question. Have you any ex[)laiuition to give on (bat subject? — As far as I am aware, 1 am acting in keeping with my instiuclions rcganiing bow the embankments are to be made up iVoin muskegs. ]10,")5. Js thei-e atiy other n\atter concerning cither muskegs or watci- stretches on which you ai'c unable to give positive ilircctinns lo (he contractors, because you have not received definite iiistniclioiis from your .supei ior oflicer ? — JS'ot that occurs to ray meraory at present. 110.")t!. Js there any other matter which you think it advisable tn have moie fully explained, or to have allored in your evidence? lliUf you any doubt that the deviations in the line, and tho changes in tho grad.) have diminished the amount of rock cuttings ? — J have no didibt about it. 11057. Have you any doubt that the grades alone have diminished the amount of rock cuttings on the work ? — The deviations and change of gradients have combined to reduce tho work. 1U''58. Have you an}' doubt that tho change in the grades alone has diminislied the rock cuttings on tho work? — I have no doubt. linS'J. Have you now any doubt whether you have heard olliciallj, or otherwise, that the Government had !'etarded the progress of the contractor's operations? — I have no doubt. IIOGO. In reference lo embankments for water stretche8,do you wish to state Jtiove fully tho mode in which tho work is to be tinisbed thuu you did in j'our previous examination; if so, please do so? — I should like to say that at some points rock-borrowing has been adopted to complete embankments across water stretches; at others a rock base has been determined upon. .,,, tmm 79B JENNINGS ork nr.vcctidii )po8od sliu]a'? lOiit tlu'ii the '%...iU,UOO— is as !i liiu-is the cm ark (in by at tho original boon modi tied'/ HalUvay Cuii- MtriK'tloll — li:i!;l. Y(.tiilis(it!;;ni>li i,cl\voon lock hascMUid rnckbDi'i-ou-iii-'; idca-e *'""""<•» ^»' •'^• OApiiiin what the tliNi ini'tioiiis ? — Rofbiidiig' to a iDck l)a.sis, I inMan r'u'k l,iiri)\v(;i| Ibi' the iiiii'jxisc of making' an ('iiil)ankiiU'iit lo a \\-\\ IclM iiivo ilie Mii'laco of the water, ii])(jn wliich tiosllo work will be oitil! an it been fnially ble to ))roCL'C(l larticular as lo on to give nn ?ping with my made up tVoni r muskegs or dircctiiins lo to instructions ory at present. lit advisable to •idence? llavo hanges in tho have no donbt ixo diminished ma and change [ades ahme lias loubt. Iicard oliieiivlly, progress of the i08,do you wish finished than I so?— I sbou'^l Ion adopted to }s a rock l)ase WlNNii'KO, Saiuixhiy, Dtn Oc'jdici', IFSO. I'lVii.i.iAM ]\Ii:iU)Ocit, sworn and examined : MURDOCH. />;,/ tin: Chairman :— ■'^'il.I^iV u ."'" ill!i:-t. Wliero do you livt*? — In tiie city of Winnipeg. ;i:i •"). ilnw long have you lived hei'c ? — Ab.nil a j'ear. W'X'r.'i. And before that? — Before tliat in Bow/nanvilb.!, wliiih was .■ iioiuiii^iiarlers. l.Dii". Have you been in any way connc-'le 1 wilh the C'aiia'lian ';;rilic Ivailway ? — 1 have. IliiuN. I'^'oin what time?— From .Iiiiie, 1871. r"'i''ViT;' ^ .J UllO, loj J. d.'ii'.l. I.i whal caiiacity were you iirst employed? — As (liu>ion vxitucss, Division , ,;, , „ I J J i J Kr.ziiicovtosiir- If',"".-'''' vcy rn.in Siuilt 11071). Wliere? — To make a survey of the Sault Sle. Mario liaiiway, in'riosoisuvuni ; |;ro!ii .S.iiilt .Ste. .Marie to UU) miles etisiward inst nimentall y ; then ti>';n .•.xiiioi-MUon 1 ,. 1- 1 I, 1 /111 .'• • til «l«nrll Klv«-r ■ inc ei(;s.siiig ol I' lem h liiver exploratory. 1 hose were preiinnnary . Whoi'j was your base of sup])lies? — Tho base of supplies was Huso oi supiiiies fnginally to land at Sault Sto. Mario. I had then to distributj thorn aauit «iu. .Nnuic puiigliuut tho wholo distance lo French Eiver. '*,P- .'.*' i. 1. f^ ■'*; MURDOCH 10G ■> ' Nni'vryM ; l>'TI— Party \V. DlslrlhiitWiii <,f MlpJllll'S. f'omnilsH.'irini to iiiirty. Supplier pnri'li.-m- <'plies iicf'0!ri]i!islit.i! '.'_|, iiiiikiii;^ tlio hiirvoy ii ran for Llio Hr>t lOil miles in ni:i!i\- iihuaw close to tlie rivci' bank of the St. Mary's River, in some pl.icn ; tive up six miles inhii:il, and 1 look tluMii up In' l»oal aiul disti ib:ite 1 Ihoinut tlioso ])oints. I sent by boat to tlwce ditlbroiit points between IV'muIi J{iver, at the end of the first 100 miles ^^oint.- eastward, an^i limi ])i'ovisioris pnt at ditVeront jioints inlatpl to meet nie at iny exijlo. ration as I ari-ived at those p(dulH. Tliat «ervieo wa.-, peilorniod li\- three men, I tliiiik. lli'TT. Wu.'! aii3' comTTiis.-arial otlieer alta"iie(l to yon r pin'f v. or dil yoii take the rtisponsibilily of providing,' ? — Vcs ; I had u eoniuii^suriui olliccr immediately umler my control. IIOTH. Did he take the lesp )ii>ihility of purchasino- tl:e siijijilios, dr was that doiK^ b}' some other olHeer superior to him ? — Tiie .^ii|ii)lio> ! thirdf, were purcliased by Mi-. Wallace, if 1 i-ecolloct ri;^hlly. Ii97!'. W;h thei'c any ditlv'ult}' dui'inf;: that sca-'on's opo-'aiion- oi: ac(,'ouiit of the supplies y — \«.iie; whatever I hail them direi'liy un,lrr my own control. 11U80. Al)out what time did the operations end for ih.'d, reason.'— Tiie fir^t 100 miles ol' instrumental work ended in Xovi'mlier. 11!>S1. What was accomplished duriiii;; the first season ? — An instiii- mental survey of 100 miles was acconiplishcd, plan and jirotile furnished to tho (rovernment, and the report upon it; also an exploi';i- t ion of the remaiidny distance over the 100 miles eastward to ImcikIi iiiver, with a sketch plan, and repoi-t accompanying it as to the k'n-i-'l bility of the railway. 11982. Was the ex])loration proceeding on the eastern ])orlioii at the I same time that j'oiii' instrumental survey was goiiio; on ut llioj western? — Not until I had run 100 miles eastward instrnniciit;ill\-, did f commence to continue my osploration easterly to French Jiiver, 11983. Was the party diminished for exploration ]-urposes?— Alll but nine were sent home, who accomj)anied me with sleighs and jiio-j visions haided through by men. 11984. Then dii|M'U' Itlxir l» ■ ••III ll ('i;inniiin' ()f 1 -Tl! '.'' — I was |i)iir ;i\> at homo. 1 think, and Mr. I"'li'initi^ 'losjivd nu> jtarliiiilarly to jf(j KVj'ila'iMi, I WiiijiilK';;' ti) iltitiutniiK! iipun tlio tbusihiliiy ol a lint; lor I ho i'acilic inri'ctrd i.y p'li ay, iVotn Iho crds^in^' of Wiiinipci;' [I'war viii Kiiiilish liivcr, ihoii hi:; to niii Irorn W I nil It Hivi „iiitl) of Lac Soul to Iho lioad of >i'ipiifO!i Lako ; liioii hy Ihi^ hruiich to na i Xiiii^oii Ij.My. i t'ouinl, on arriviii;.;' at liat J'orta^(!, l!ial Ihn i-oiili! I^,',,",',' proposctl liy AFr. Flominif was itnpraoticablo. 1 hati ihoii to (lottM'iiiiiii! .Nipi'-'on i.uk iiio cro.ssinii,' of tho Wintiipog liivor, ami docido upon tho roufo cast iiu'H-li H\\i In NOiilli Of \/,\,r 'III III lii'liil of Will' lii'ii III .Nl|ili;i)n "'i.v (l In ordor l(t attain tho information, 1 found a niiinhor of tho {«">!" iToposca tiy Klein I UK Ib.lia lis and chiol's (jf tho h)(.'ality oa.>t\\ard assom hied at Jtal Porlago; ii'iiix.^siiiio, :;ii(l througli Mr. MoPIicr.-ion, tho JIutlson r>ay Ai^'oiil, and from my ijwii pcinonal examinations, dotcrminod to make m}- o.xploration of tho cinssinp!; at JJat Portui^o a.s the ohjcctivo point eastward, and from information received 1 adopted the route aa hvid down on the; jdan wliic h I now produce and file. (E.xliibit No. 109.) ir.)!.)l. Is this tho red line marked " William Murdoch, March, 1H72 ?" _Yos; that is tho lino with altitudes taken at dillorent points, and shown (in tlic plan. 110112. Wan this I'Outc ditlereiit from the one which had hi'oti pro- Rimm.hsimmi.v jeded when you started on the work ?— Tho respoijsihilily was thrown lill!!Hut>i,uosi'ii- spoijsi unify. upon mo of choosing that route through tho counffy. At that titn(! the '((nii-. liovernmont did not know whore to send out tiieir parties tor tlic eibiiing year until that lino was determined upon. 11!>1)3. J understood you to say that Mr. Fleniing had ]>roposed some i/inc pmpospd by lino wh oh you found impracticable? — Via Knglish River. . Fiimir.g. 111194. Then he had proposed to you a dittorent couisc from tho otw. ttiiicli you found to bo tho mo.st favourable? — Ves. 11119.'). What was the route which ho ]>roposed ? — 17r7 English I'ivor, lywhat is called White Dog t(i Islington. 1199(1. The starting ))oint was JJed River? — Xo ; I had nothing lO do with Jlod Kivor and those points. 11997. 1 am s]>oaking now of what Mr, Fleming had intimated that litMJosired you to do? — He ])ropo.sed u route by English Jiivej- through Iv the .-outh of Lac Sou I. 11998. Is that tho route which you say you found to he impracticable ? —Ves; on examination of the different points, 1 found it impossible to loiistruct a line along tho English Itivor. 1 h;id discretionary powern to adojji a different one if I wished. 119!i:). W'liat was tho number of yrmr party for that season's <^pera- hi/.iui party, nine lions?— Nine men and eight dog traijis. .'i";«'trHi'us.'~''' 12000. Do you mean only engineers and packers ? — I had simply oiii! iium with me, as assistant. 12001. Was that a simple exploration? — It was an exploration, what An cxpioiaiidii to vnii may call a track survey, the ])oints wore laid down — lakci ami ul'!ul[r\hinJhuv- iiolalile points- so as to enable Mr. Fleming to distribute parties from vcyinu; imriif's. the information that he had got as to tho best section of country to make insliumental surveys. 12002. Whei'e was your base of snj)plies for that season's oporationn ? ciirriod supplies -1 carried them thntugh from this place, Fort(Jarry, to Lake Xi)(igon ^ with me. ,1'. ' * »■: *• I .' I MURDOCH IDS 4-1 ty^^ * V t I) ■ > •'■ ,-. .^::K »J A ( % . *• r '^ Niirviyfc 18?2— AVI II III pre Kiv< r tit norili ii|tlv;<>iia Kx|pli)riitli>n iini ('(I iitUiiil>abiU;i Jliiyjiiil .Mivy,l't. of M.'iy, IS72. 12i;()."). Was any iilliwiipl iikkU! to ascort.-iin tho l\(v;^li(, at (lill'..iviit |)()iiils of ilio roiiiiliy ? — V(.'> ; l)iit my liaioniotor.s woie l^i'olcen aiiliii\ jii(Ji:ftuont had to L;iii(lo inc its lo tlio lay of tho coiinliy. I mnV stiito, I ^;ii|t])oy(', that t'of sonn' years at'U'i'wai'ils, iVnin tlio (lltii''!,ihv u\ Iho sociioiis, lll-^^l•lllnt'lllal siirvtsys uhmc cai'i'ii.Ml on hy Iho (iov('riii"u(.|!! lo try ami better tho clioii'o of location, Imt liail finally to ailoni ih,, route as laid down as nearly as indicated on the plan in tho viciiiitv i>\ tlu: route liud down, 12(I0({. Wits that tilt* i^ciieral coiii'sc of the I'ailway as tiDW Ihmum constructed? — Up to Kaylo Ijalce, the east i-nd of Kaglc Lake. 12007. vU'ler May, 1872, what was your next work ? — I was ikliiiiit'd tliroiti;-h ico at Nipii^on l?ay for sotm" con.'^iderahie Icn^ffh nf (im,. hcfoic i wa> enabled to |)ri)cced lo Ottawa by boat, where ] ri'iioii,.,] to Mr. I'Meining from tlie sketcli plan and verbal repoi-t whieli 1 lr,^\■^> him at the time. On the surveys bein[]'uv- wero afterwards burnt, iind I'verything, with the exception of ihoiirolik' and the Stuilt Ste. Marie work, was destroyed. 12001). Jn a report of 1874, by Mr. Fleming, does lie not make soin,- allusion to the stibstance of this commtiniciition ? — None whatevci' thai 1 am aware of. 12010. And wdiat, after that? — I was then given instruction^ m; November 5th, 1872. 12011. IJetwecri M;iy, 1872 and Xovember, do f undei'sttuid that yon were occupied in connection with the Pacific Railway ? — Yes. I'lovioiis to Mr. Fleming's departure for Britisii Columbia, 1 was instriicto 1 If co()])erate with Mr. James II. Kovvan in looking after tho ]iai'tios iiii the Ni])igon District. 1 remained there until the fall tit Nipigoii Bay. Mr. Kowan went to Otttiwji to take churge of the ollioe, ;uid J tunkl charge of tho parties in ihe field. 12012. During what time did this tirrangemcnt last ? — Diiriii-- tin- simmer. 12013. What was your duty in rogto'd to tiold work for that Hummer?— My duty was to visit sorae of tho parties in tho held, to -a' the objective pointis^ and give them instructions generally. 120M. Had you any rcsjionsibility :ts to the supplies or only engineering work? — Fngineering work entirely; Capt. Eobii^'in was tho commis.'-ai iiit olUcer. ]201;'5. Were the engineers in diargo of tiie dilferent ptirlies siiboi-j dinato to yi>u during that period ? — ^'es. 1201(5. Were their movements directed on your rcsponsibiiity?- They were; their instructions htid boon received previously and lli'}'j JiimI (•oii(liict>.'il ^atisl'ictorily? — It siilisliintiaic I llic ri'porl that 1 niaihM') ' ««" Mr. Fleiniiij- in coiiiioclioii with tin i-duio ti-oin liod IJivor, and a '^'''■'"'•^'* ''""".""■ iioi'tioii 'H the !'()iito li'oin liiiko JNiiii;^on vvo-twanl . wim.s, i.. ii.i.i- liiv; as to I'diilc 12II1S. Hilt had VDii any t'hiii'^j;*! <>f otluM- uaitics wuikiiiM- ,.;i.st (,( irumUci nivir , , \T ■ 'J XT 1 • I • 1 I illsl mill WrsI |,:il<(' Ni))iL,'()ii r — JSol iniiiicuiatoly. iidm Mi.i'^dti. rjOll*. Llndor whom wci-c they operating; ? — Mi\ li )wan. ]:i02'). Tlu'ii your jiirisdiction oxtiMidoil tVoin NipiL^^on in Red liivci? vviiius..'s imis- — Vos ; wostcrly a-; tar :hs the parties woro oiil, nii'pi'u'mu *"''"""' lL'0-1. Ahoiit how many pai'tios? — Four of live partir-, I think-; I do not rcincmhor oxai'tly. I was ill |)art of tin; soa^•on, and laid up at I'd Rock, when Mr. I'leminu; was f^oiiii;- llii'()Ui^h. 121)2-'. [>o yoa know whether the^^e jiarties uiiiler sour control nu-t with any une.xpocled dillienlties? — Thero may have heon some Hlii;ht diffii'ulties in eoniuM'tion with the (arryini;- out of llie comniis-ai-ial ; I lomomhor heaiang that the supplit's were not rcLTularly t'nwardcd to them on the eastern ])()rtion of it. Aside from that nothin<^ iiiUKsiial. 120_';}. Did the work t'nr that season inoeeed to voiir satisfaction ?— "'^"'■1/,""' ''"*';'■ . I -' l^llll'l lull (il Wll- No; 1 cannot say that it did so, iicss iimi mnivmi. 12(l'21. Jn wluit ros|)ecl was it not satisfactory? — Tiiere were some slin'ht mistakes made; in startinu', at one of tin; ])oiiits, whi( h were iitterwauls eorreral ions after Novemher, *''i'*'I"'" '"'•%... 1872, when you receivoil those other instructions from Mr. Fleming ',' 'I'liri, .iVv iiay «'.» -No; my connection ceased with that part of the district. iWil'.V *''^'' inAn/> mi 1 1 ,1 1 1 • 1 I i I -J I liistiiicli'il 111 run 12020. Then what was tho new work which yon undertook.'' — J was ^n .•.\|ii..iai()i.\ dvou instructions to run a preliminarv line, an e.\'i)loratorv survey, fl";^'-^' '."'A" finni Prince Artluu's riantlinii-, Thunder JJav, to White Fish Lake. i.ioHiink'io white '^ " Klsli l.iikc. 120-T. What was the niiml)or over whii-h yon had cdiarge '.•' — Ahoiit si/,,- m |.iiri.\ , twonty-eight or thirty men, with dog-ti-ams. ,1,,,^ umIu-. 120-8. What was (lot!e? — An instrumental survey was ma-'i ' etwee n those two points, plans, profiles tind reports. 12029. Up to what time wei-e you occupied in that winter'/ — During till' winter, and I returned in the spiing to Ottawa. 120;]0. Does your i-eport on that subject appear in any of the ])rinted volumes? — I think that was lairnt as well, at the time the I'acitic Riiilway offieos were destroyed. riOiJl. Have you now any c<)py of your report on that snhject ? — 1 have not. 120.-j2. Was there an}- trouble about supplies ilnring that operation ? -None whatever. 12033. What was the next work undertaken by you ? — The Colling- I wood breakwater, I think, was tho next work I way entrusted with. VIQM. Is that in any way connected with tlio I'acitic Railway? — *' ill,' '*; .1 ,:;i'i T : ■ -U MUROOOH 800 I 1 i '.:^!V-.^ Hnll%«'i.v l<»fll> (litii Kllllll'.|iKli«|llllt ltai-ii»ii of liiii' 1 1'liin Mithiiii* ilownii li» I. lie 'llll|-S'4'K Ol' iiii|>r«»|ti>r <' Chaises pi-cl'cri'L'il JiKtiliist wltaifss and S. J. Dawson, III vest iudtion flt'iuiiMilcd by witness. Flciiiini; com- ]iuini you iti diai'^^'o ofu party? — I had rhai'go of two jiartiKs, 120;>S. Woi'u they cii,i;ii,i,^od u|)(mi dill'ort'nl woi'ks ?— Thcv wcr,. I'ligaLCod upon iho two ends of tho Work. 1 havcj writtou insti iiciiou, dati'd oOth Juiii', 1.S74, whicli aio in Hiib»tiinc'o.tu h)i;ato tlie hue iii'ili,. railway in tin; bc^t position ovoi' the Hhortodt routo botwoun th(! iiojnts roloi red to, having due re^ai'd to oconoiny in construction, and v^uv- eiully lo sociiro a favouiable allii,auncnl and easy rou''ht '"'<';>/'• '» 9""-, Iveci'tain members ol the Committee. 12050. Did you on that occasion intimiito to tlio Committee the hab- .tame of what you ai'e now intimating — that you wore dischar^etl liviilioiil any investigation?—! did; the matter was fully dibcussed tttoio the Committee. 12057. Was evidence taken before that Committee on oath? — Yos ; I |nb sworn at that time. 12058. In consequence of that btatement before the Committee, wore Ijny stops taken towards a further inve. tii^ution of this matter between jvou and the Department ? — Nothing further, 1 ima/fine, than the reports l-I iiiivo I'cuson to think that there was. 12051). Would there be any dilficulty in investigating this matter Iktweoii you and the Department now, or :■■ ,Home future time, on Lirounlof theab.>-cnce of witness or any other trouble? — I should think it. The absence of wilncHsos would, of course, materially atlect the :biii^' now. 12060. Are you willing that the matter should stand as it is, or do Matter a. i.!aa ivAii require that a further and fuller invetitigation should be made, ''"*'"-' "'^^• Idilior now or at some futuro time ? — 1 see nothing, either one way or iho other, that would bo of interest to me or to the Government to go lonwith it, or let it rest us it ifc. The matter is a dead issue now. 12061. Then do wo understand that you are indifferent in the matter? l-I iigree to whatever action the Commission think fit to take. It is a Imiitler that is past and gone, and when it was not investigated at the |iime, it is of no consequence to mo now. I have survived the obliquy ktwiis thrown upon mo, after pressing in every possible way to get I brought to an investigation at the time. 12062. What was the next work you undertook in connection with Railway iMcm- lik Pacific Kailway? — The next work immediately concerning the ^*j^"7^„ ^^y [Pacific Railway was the Georgian Bay Branch and Canada Central Br«i.cu— i . . "^ ° '' Contract No. 13. Itxtcnsion. 12063. About what time was that commenced ? — In 1874; I left in in i87i became 6i4 It was immediately after leaving the service of the Government on 'oeo^gUa'Bay^ tat I became Mr. A. B. Foster's engineer on the Georgian Bay Branch — Branch. |iiiimediately. 12064. Mr. A. B. Foster obtained a contract? — Yes; he obtained a |(DDtract for building the Georgian Bay Branch. 12065. In this matter you were acting in his interest? — Yes. 12066. What was the first work you did in that capacity ?— I proceeded inRtrumentai |!omakc an instrumental survey from the harbour of French River to bouTs^of Frenctf Ike Ninissing road, and from thence to the Amable du Fond, which was ^'^^Road'to'''* » be the terminus of the Georgian Bay Branch proper. Amabiedu Fond. 51 '/„'' ♦ii' ■'■.■:f n t. . *">!' MURDOCH 802 Saitwny IiOea> (lloii— OforKiaii Bay llrniicli— Coati-Hct S». li. • » , • A yar net npinl on tills work. r'ondpnincil rouil ami inlvi>('il Fostor Id hav(> contract caii- cellcd. Opinion corro- Ixiralcil liy Walter Shanly. Theorossins in connection with Sault Ste. Marie line of witni'ss's survey 1S7L', were llioso tixptl on had Iho line licoii carri'ti out. lla/.lcwood seni lo report on route Iroin llenlrew to :nciiitli ol" French lUver. ]20t>7. That is near the oontral point of the four townships markcil A, H, C, ])?-Vt's. 120t;8. Which was, in tho contract with Mr. Foster, desi^natcil us tin, eastern terminus oi' tlie (rcoi-gian Bay Branch? — Yes. 1200!). How loiiii; were you occupied on (liat service ? — That, togelher with tho Canada Central, i was a year. 12070. Was Mr. Foster also interested in the Canaila CentiMl '{"—Ye,. 12071. You wore still ii; his employment at that lime? — Vos. 12072. I believe tho result of the exploration on tho Geoi'<^iaii iJav Branch was to tind that there was no feasible route within the gru'licrits required ? — I condemned it on account of the diffic.ities to be Crif.jm,!. orod in constructing- a road under tho cast iron contract that \va> entered into between Mr. Foster and the (iovernm?nt. I advised him to have tho matter cancelled, as it was impossible for him to build 'a. 12073. AVas (his opinion corroborated by some other indepeiKie/ji engineer?— It was corroborated by Mr. Walter Shanly, who aiLelan. 12081. A location plan ? — No; what wo call a track survey plauani a report. 12082. Had (hero l)Oon any profile or had the examination been en; ducted so as to permit of it ? — I think the profile was taken from Sirj William Logan's geological plans and survey under his direction. 12083. There was nothing like a working profile ?— No. 803 MURDOCH jr. Mackenzie^ bo obtaiiic! ixaniiniiiioii- nation beon on- taken from Sir] Ih direction. Railway Locu* tioii— I208i. And what was the result of Mi, Jla/Z-woo I's cxaminati.>ns '•*u";"f,|2|J_"">' as to the probability of obtaining a pmciicublc* lino '( — wltogethei- erro- < oiitiuoi xo. i^j. neous ; entirely impracticable. 12085. But 1 mean to ask at what result did ho arrive ? — That a iinzUwood ro- «utiruia'L)o lied that taking each distinct portion of lh<; country as far ha he had »'iv''- cXiimined it, that a satisfactory line could he ^^7;?, I think there are nk'sof that report still in tho oilicf, which can be rcfori-cd to. 120SG. Had ho made an examination of lh<; coritinuous lino between :he centre of those four townships or thereabout, and some points on Fi'eni'li Kivor, tu which a i i spociiica- he branch — 1 mean the extension of the Can.-ida Tcfitral from l)ouglass Irr'id.Vs oi Vwuniy- restward. My question was intended to apply to tlie (ioorgian Jiay '^'-^.'jy*'' ''Yl| ','V'''' Branch? — Tlion my answer is: had not the specification been so framed i.wn ,. ( MURDOCH 804 ••';■•*• ■ «. tlon— Ocorglnn Bay Branch- Contract Mo. 12. The Government refusing to modify this and to abandon twen- ty miles of the line contract, was given up. Profiles and loca- tion maps not prepared before contract. Instructed by Foster to make exploration to flud best line. Proposed that the line should take the valley of the Ottawa. Foster construct- ed branch to Renfrew, hoping to command traffic of the Canadian Pacific Railway. 12093. It was upon that matter, I believe, that you applied to iho Government for a modification of the terms of the contract ?--Yo.-i. 12094. And in consequence of the rofuHal to modify, the matter was abandoned ? — The matter was abandoned on those grounds, and tertuin alterations of the lino were also demanded. The abandoning di' tin., first twenty miles of road to Cantin's Bay. 12095. A-dopting water way instead of railway? — Yes; on whici, locks wei'e spoken of at a point on the river to improve the navigation of the river to a point twenty -six miles up. 12096. What was your next connection with any works poilainin^ to the Pacific liailway? — Next the Canada Central. 12097. When was that ? — During a portion of the Huma year, and t;.!' some little time afterwards. 12098. What was your duty in connection with that ? — Mr. Fosiei', on his arrival from England, from the advices I had given h'ln, began lo fear that the line throughout was not represented truly or to iii> interest, in the report given by Mr. llazlewooi. 12099. For this, which you call the extension of the Gooigiau Huv Branch, had there been profiles and location maps prepared before tbo contract? — By rae? 12100. No; by anyone? — No, 1 think not; simply an examination as Mr. Hazlewood conducted it. 12101. Do you mean examination in the shape of exploraiion?— I think one line was run from French Kiver eastward for a short distance by Mr. Mortimer, from what is called the " Key," six milon east. 12102. We are now sj)oakingof the extension which was undertaken by the Canada Central as distinguished from the Georgian Bay Branch proper : do you know whether plans or profiles of that hud been prepared before the contract with the Canada Central, as to thf ex- tension ? — I think not ; it was simply on Mr. Hazlewood's report. 12103. Without plans ?— Without plans. 12104. What were your duties in connection with that portion of tiio line, — the extension? — Mr. Foster asked me to make an exploration where, in my opinion, the best line of railway could ba got for the extension of the Canada Central, — to make an examination of the country. 12105. What were the results ? — We proposed that the line slioiiM take what is called the valley of the Ottawa, the natural great artery of the country, where the lowest elevations could bo obtained. 12106. Was the central extension abandoned finally? — No; Mr. Foster instead then of building from Douglass vid the route projeeted by Mr. Fleming, and reported upon by Mr. Hazlewood, construcledlho branch to Renfrew, some thirty-two miles, with a view that should iho Northern Colonization Railway on the oilier side of the river cross ai Portage du Fort, he would have command of the traffic of the Pacitic Railway. 12107. Was the extension as contracted for with the Canada Central abandoned ? — It went through other hands, and wont into the hands ot'j other contractors, Mclntyro & Woi'thington. 805 MURDOCH s; on wiurh n examination .ey," SIX milo> RMllway liOca~ tlo«— 12108. Not over the same route? — No ; that was iibandoned entirely '''cwnada'clin. from my showing the inexpediency of taking a line by the projected 'i-*! <»" i^«ke loate as indicated by Mr. Uazlewood. xipu.iug. 12109. What was your next connection with the Canadian Pacific Determines ter- Railway? — My next connection was the determining of the terminus centrai'ouLaacif of the Canada Central Railway on Lake Nipissing, to the east of Lake Nipissing. Nipissing, with a view of getting a common point so as to admit of the line running north and also to the south of Lake Nipissing, and to carry the railway to the north sufficiently far back from the waters of Liiko Nipissing, should they be used for navigable purposes, so that the lino should not bo overflowed, 12110. By whom wore you engaged in this service? — By the present Government. _, ^,, ,. 12111. About what time did the service commence ? — Tn December > above^p-irpos^,'^ 1878; also to make a survey and soundings of what is called the East auatomaiie Bay of Lake Nipissing, for the purposes of a harbour in connection bay of Luke Nio- with the railway. \^>*^^f^ [" ''^^^^ «> 12112. Is that the bay laid down on the map, marked South-East Bay? — Yes ; and plans and profiles showing terminal points of the bay and the terminal point of the Canada Central Railway tire in the office. 12113. "With a report on the subject? — With a report — yes. 12114. What was the number of the parly for that service ? —I think '^iz'' "f p.'iii.v , it was about eighteen altogether. eighteen. 11115. Was there any difficulty about supplich ' — None whatever ; I took them with me. 12116. When did the service end ? — I think it only occupied about two months altogether. 12117. Then what was your next operation? — My next service was, contrutt ajo. 48. I had instructions to locate the first 100 miles from Winnipeg west- ward. 'th June, lS7!t, coninicncecl to loefttp UK) miles Wf.st ol Wlnnlpes?. 12118. About what time did you commence? — On the 9th June. 1679. 12119. Where were your headquarters during that service? — Win- nipeg. 12120. Were your instructions from the head office ? — Yes ; from ill'. Fleming. I had nothing to do with the office here virtually, but my instructions were to .submit the instructions to Mr. James II. Rowan, the District Engineer, to supplement any directions not therein L'iven, if there was anything omitted, from his knowledge of the lountry. 12121. Your instructions were to report direct to the head office ? — rnstmeteti top- Certainly; 1 never reported to Mr. Rowan on any subjectwhatevor. otilc port toliertil 12122. What party had you in your charge? — 1 had the usual loca- .'-^i/cof pnriy, lion party of twenty-one or twenty-two men altogether. twenty-two a 't>' altogetli meiu 12123. How many for engineering work? — The usual transit man, leveller,chain men, rod-raen, picket men, axe men, generally compri.-ing tliirteen or fourteen of a party. V- ' •rt MURDOCH 806 *-c -I' . No (iitlli'ulty about .supplies. Survey <;om plctinl 1st HeptomtiLT. Party sent at Flominji'srciiucsl to run a llnr Into PortaK"' In Pniiric. tion — CoDtrat't M«». 48. 12124. And the other men? — For packing provision.^, moving camt, making stakes, pickets, &c., involving all the work necessary lo cany on the work collectively or with any advantage. 12125. I suppose Winnipeg was the base of suppl'os ? — Yes ; oveiv- thing was brought from hi;ro. 12126. Was there any trouble about eupplies? — None whatever, except from the badness of the road and the generally vet seasoii which impeded work some. 72127. About what time was that survey completel? — About tho latter end of August or 1st September — surveys were completed in the fall. There was one party sent from me, at 5lr. Fleming's request to run a line into Portage la Prairie. 12128. Was that intended as a branch line or as a doviation ot' the main lino? — It was run simply to make a connection to show tho extiu length that would bo entailed by running a line there. 1212P. And to deviate the line? — And deviate the lino — yes, and im get the general features of the ground over which it passed. 12130. Were location plans and profiles prepared compiising this work ?— Yes ; they wore prepared as far as the work was ready U) go on with forthwith. 12131. Was this a final location or a trial location ? — It was a final location. There were portions of the work that would have been altered when the road was being constructed. For instance, there wore two routes, one on the 4th base line and there was another runnint: from three miles to three and a-half miles further north — the 4tli base line was completed, but there would have been an alteration in tliu wet piece of ground eight miles in extent to the west side of the Provinct' It would have kept half a mile to a mile or a mile and a-half fuitliei south to obviate the necessity of going through wot ground, but the 'lurvey had to be carried through to ascertain the extent and the advi sability of taking it through the wet ground or abandoning it. 12132. When did your connection with this particular work cease ' — During the winter — in January. The latter end of January I got imperative instructions from Mr. Fleming, by telegram, to make an Une'froin^naVf examination of the country from the end of the first 100 milo contrar: flrat 100 intlrH _ - towards the 4'oal regions. Location plans and proflle.s pn- parccl as far as work rt-ady to gi> on with. E.\plaiuslho\v his connection with this work ceased : Instructed by Ploming toiiret a Rowan took pos- session of wit- ness's office and papers. • '■ vui the valley of tho Assineboine towards the coal regions wiili a view of getting a line that would be not adverse to the coal traflir. with the least gradients adverse to the coal traffic. 12133. Did that end your connection with the first 100 miles' — If you will allow me, I will make an explanation. During niy absence, my staff who were working in my office at that time, preparing those plans, 1 got a letter here stating that Mr. liowan hiui taken possession of my office and all my papers at the instance of Mr. Fleming, and my offices were turned into traffic offices for the Depart- ment connected with the Pembina Branch. 12134. Do I understand that you had an office in oonnoction will: this first 100 miles separate from the general engineers' office ociupie-i by Mr. Eowau ?— Certainly. 12135. In the same building? — Not in the same building al ti!i. This building 1 applied for to Sir Alexander Campbell, who was tin Postmawter-Genoi al, for the reai?^on that there was no room in ilii', 807 MURDOCH nft — yos, and \.'\ llnll\«ay Locn* tluii- office below for two parties to work in at the beginning, and I choso *^»"«'"i'f »• ^8. thoecs offices. I had my office apai't from Mr. Jiowan's, and the woi k was going on when this action was taken, which I felt very indignant at. It might easily have bceri left until I returned from the exploration of the work which 1 was sent upon, and I wrote very strongly on the matter in connection with it. What object there was in it 1 cannot conceive. Mr. Rowan also sent for my own private papers at my own house, for what object I cannot understand. It was a most unpardon- able thing for a professional man to do. At the same time Mr. Jlowan, knowing I was 150 miles west of this, wrote me letters to give up every thuig connected with this, previous to my getting any know- ledge from Mr, Fleming of his desire to have my office, and that the Minister had instructed hini to request mo to take charge of the ascend 100 miles west. Conseiiuentiy, after bringing over the iron and Took iimn;.. or ties and starting the conti-act here last year, as soon as I went out on tve"t"»'/K«-«i"''''* the other work my connection virtually ceased with the first 100 K'*''"' <»"«••'•<•« miles, and I took charge of the second 100 miles west — a more difficult rVriniri'ii(,'"i'ui"f'n. location. The answer that was given to mo was that there was no work J;^,"{',',','i,"" "''"' to bodoneon this section rec^uiring an engineer, by Sir Charles Tu|)per ; that it was going to be done by assistants. n'r LUXTON Coiitrart Nit, l.j, IIcl|tiMK New** papcrH, William F. Luxton's examination continued : By the Chairman : — 12136. Have you anything further to add to your evidence, or any copy o{ Free documents which you wish to produce to the Commissioners? — I beg fh"v lu'iii i^n,. to put in a copy of the Daily Free Press of December 19th, 1878, contain- ■'''•«'•" .^J'"":*' , ing the article referred to in my former evidence which I submitted in heua.' '" ' ' refutation of the evidence of Mr, Whitehead that the Free Press wa!< hostile to him, and had done all it could against him. The article is headed "Our Outlet" and marked with my initials. (Kxhibit No 110.; 12137. Is there anything further that you wish to add?— That Is all. .Iames .Sutherland's examination continued : By the Chairman: — J. SUTHERLAND. F»rt FrMiiceit I«ork — 12138, Can you produce now the statement of the goods which were stiiicinoiitDf delivered over at the time which you ended your connection with the vii!u;'of kooii.s Pucitio Railway ? — Yes. wiu'ii wiin.i.ss' 1213!). With the prices attached ? -Yes. coiuicctloti witli Ijock."' cniiscil. l.MI.7(i. 12U0. What is the gross sum ? — At the invoice pi'ice with freight $:»i and charges added, $25,327.19, less depreciation, say 20 ])er cent., ?5,0(;5.43. 12141, Net value?— 820,201.70. 12142, Have you credited the store account in your books with that amount ? — Yes. 12143, What is the result of the store account then by crediting it sto,o acTOunt, with what you find to bo the proper value of those articles transferred •*-'^'*"'*''0'''- by you as above mentioned ? — It is $233,40 short. H ;• '! ; ( J. SUTHERLAND 808 *-l €. •■• Fori Francca Book-keeping* No book for ex- clusive purpose of Hhowine goods filsposecl of to labourers, Ac. Books show loss oft 23;! Ml. '.■•' « 12144. In the list which you produce have you added any tliiriLN which were not in your former statement of goods transfonod by yijif v — I have not. 1214r). In the making up of this statement you have included besides the articles which were property charged to Store Account, phmt machinery, rolling stock and other goods not properly store goods, have you not ? — Yes; they all go back into the st Drope. tle-lnspcc- tor, satisfactory In his conchict While under Witness. « ' William Murdoch's examination continued : By the Chairman : — 12151. In connection with the first 100 miles was there some matter of Drope's which you wish to refer to? — He was a tie ins|ioetoi' of mine during the time I was in charge of the work. 12152. Was there some trouble about the inspection? — It appears | that after I left he was discharged for some reason or other. 12153. As far as your knowledge is concerned, what have you to say I in the matter ? — As long as he was under me his conduct was satis- factory, and he obeyed my instructions. I gave him written instructions j which he could not fail to carry out; as far as I know they weiej carried out. I have no reason to believe that they were otherwise. 12154. Was there more than one tie inspector under you ? — No. 12155. Do you mean that his conduct was always satisfactory to thoj contractors who furnished the ties ? — No ; his conduct was satisfactory j to mo. 809 MURDOCH Rallwny Ooa* striictlon— 12156. Was there at any time occasion to revise this inspection ?— f "■**''*';* *"•**' Xot under me. Tie«. 12157. Did you ascertain yourself, by peraonal inspection, whether Has no doubt in- he had made a proper examination in the first instance ? — From what properly donef I saw of all the ties brought to this side of the river I have no doubt that the inspection was properly made. 12158. Then you had an opportunity yourself of forming a personal judgment on the subject? — 1 saw them every day passing and re- passing. 12159. Is there any other matter connected with that Drope aftair tvhich you think ought to be explained ? — I have made all the explana- tion so far as I am concerned personally, lie will, I believe, refer to me in the matter. : that upon the Thomas Drope, sworn and examined : DROPE. By the Chainnan : — 12160. Were you engaged in any transactions connected with the Pacific Eailway ? — Yes. 12161. In what way ? — I went to Ottawa and asked for a position as inspector, and I got it from the Minister of Railways, and 1 have his letter to that effect. He sent Mr. Bradley, his secretary, to introduce me to Mr. Schreiber. 1 went to Mr. Schreiber's office and met him, and he told me that he would telegraph me to join him at Toronto. I L'ot here on the 2l^rd December, and in about twenty or twenty-five minutes I reported myself to Mr. Schreiber for duty, and he instructed me to report myself to Mr. Murdoch, and 1 did so. 12182. What else ? — I obeyed Mr. Mui-doch's instructions. 121G3. What else ? — I went out on the line; went over the ties l^: '■11 I'-.- •♦.(•,], wont among the subcontractors. The contractor was Mr. Ryan, but Charged wltli coutractiD); del>t» _ on behalf of (Jov- he had some thirteen or fourteen subs, and 1 went round among the emment without camps, and among the men, where they were making the ties, and "" "' ^' !,'ave them instructions that there was no use in bringing out ties that would not pass specification. Mr. Mui-doch had given me the specifi- cation, and I showed this notice to these men ; and I got a letter from Mr. Rowan, charging me with contracting debts for the Government tliat I had no authority to do, while I had 'he receipt from the Times otfice three days previous for my o'''Hn r ney. 12164. Is it for the publication of this notice that the del>t yfEi% ^upposed to bo contracted ? — No ; I paid my own money for it. 12165. Did Mr. Rowan accuse you of coiiLracting a debt when you had not contracted a debt ? — He did. 12166. Was he right ?— No. 12167. Then what next? — I went over the ties from time to time; instructed by and I got a letter from Mr. Murdoch, instructing me to take instruc- acknowledge tions from Mr. Force during his absence, which I did ; and I went on Rowan's au- to carry them out until I got a letter from Mr. Schreiber to acknow- *'^°'"">'- ledge Mr. Rowan. OROPE 810 f t ■■'«■'■ ' , . '■■• " «. .A 4 • ,. fc ■,>i' Ballway Oon> •triictlon— Contract No. 48, Iimp^ctlon of Tied. ContrftcliirH n')t piiUl on)ilHC);rtltl- intimately c(in- tractorH paid rm JiUoijrtlllciito. Ci)Dtractors oom- plHtne Blnck Ntiir- Keen IiHkci « )ctobcr 23rd, 1873, liiHlructed to run a lino from twen- ty miles north of White FlHh Uiko weHt to HaiKly May then east to Black Sturgeon Lake. V.:i! An etpcnwive survey ; r.asoii for this. .'Vj "^■1 MURDOCH 812 m < I ) *■ 'i{;*:-^' *p ■/,■-• ■.♦■% Preliminary Survt-y — Ijlitr fk-nin north of White FlNh I^ake to Sauily Hny, thence to Black Ntur. gt'OB Lnkt-t Moborly sick. Back toTliiindiM- J{iiy. Best place for b(i«e of supplies. Lac deK Ml fie i^acs. '..-•:*'•■, . • ■ Base of supplies could not have been decided ou when party setting out. ' . " ', - ■ 4«sl^^K I • a diatanco ofubout 115 miles, with ull the campoquipniont and outtit l.n- two parties. On arriving there a horso trail had to IteciitHomo twoiitv miles north to utili'/o ihe horses that I subsequently got, to got us j,i{. as White Fish Lake. From there twenty miles of transit lino had i,^ bo run from that }ioint due north to the place of beginning to cominoiKc surveys east and west. From that point we had dog trains to tran.spoit j)rovisions entirely, involving twenty miles of dog trail to bo cut. Then from there one of the engineers, Mr. Mohorly, became .sick. I had to take his position and run his party, running westerly to what is called Sandy Lake, a distance of 115 miles, together with 115 miles df dog trail to be cut and traverses of lakes, in connection with the general line of the survey. Mr. Gordon, my other assistant, toolcu j»aiiv eastward some seventy-six miles to the Black Sturgeon Lake. AtitV finishing that he travelled buck and came out to me some iTiJ miles, to assist me in getting through. We came then back to Thunder \hy after getting the survey completed. Under those circumstances, tlie length of the line to be surveyed and cost of equipment would iiivoivt> the expenditure on a survey of that kind very much greater than if you had not to take your supplies such a distance. The wailing tor ihc taking of the ice and a snow fall, together with the fact that when 1 arrived there 1 found only two or three span of horses— four, I think were ordered by Mr. Rowan altogether, and it required twelve (U' fourteen teams of horses to transport the material. Consec^nently exceptional cause in ditl'orent places involved different outlays of money. 12187. What was the number of the party which you had charge ni on that occa.sion ? — There were two parties. 12188. How many men ? — Probably thirty or thirty-five men in eacl, ; hanties had to be built along the line of the road. 12189. Was each party to do a different kind of work, or similar work at different places ? — They were doing similar work, one goin^' east and the other v/ssi; in conjunction with that the oats ran out, their was no oats to be had in the place ; hay was scarce, and we had to bake bread and mix it with straw to keep the animals alive. 12190. Where would have been the most convenient place for the base of supplies? — The base of supplies — the nearest place that fould have been got — was Lac des Mi lie Lacs, at Savanne River. 12191. Was that on the line of the work? — It was fifty miles soiiih of the line of work. 12192. Whose duty was it to decide upon the place for the base ot supplies ? — The base of supplies was generally left in the hands of the engineer in chai-ge. 12193. Who was he ? — I was the engineer in charge at that time. 12194. Did you decide upon the base of supplies ..t that time ?— Th*^ base of supplies could not be decided on ti.-^n as I had no previous knowledge as to the point I was going to, and had not time sutiicieiit to make those arrangements. 12195. Was it understood at that time, either by express or implied instructions, that the engineer in charge should start upon his work without having any arrangements for his supplies satisfactory to him- self? — Nothing further than taking them with him and managing his o wn commissariat. 813 MURDOCH DU had charge m re men ineaclr. ifty miles souih time suliicieiit I2l9i). Tlioii ilo you nu^un it wouUl bo within his inHtructiuiiM t() stjiit ,,n 11 woriv of this itiiiii without itnowin;^ whoro liis biiso of Hupplios iviiiild Ijooi" considorinj; the Huhjt'ct himsoK ?— Ilo luui no tiino to ron- .nlor it, bocause ho had no knowloi^o of wlioro ho wu.s ^oin^ to, pro- li^bly ii wook before ho loft, iitid ho li!i I simply to take his 8Ui)|>lio-. nilli him, and do tlio bo.st ho could witii thoni whou lie got into the 121^7. On this occasion did you consult with an}' ono as to supplies „i vvheio tho base would bo? — I know the countiy. Having been over t previously and knf)win<,' tho vicinity, 1 know nioi'o about it than |:invoiio else who could advise mo. 12108. Therefore did you consult? — There was no nooessity for con- bulling. 1219!). Therefore did you consult? — No ; I consulted no one. 12200. Do you consider that the arrangements foi- supplies were .Iciective? — No. 12201. IIow was tho unusual expense incurred ? — Hy tho parties fiiiving to camp at the river until snow came to enable us to move our iiKitoriul. Wo had forty-fivo miles of the Hhobandowan road to go over liist. That had to be covered with snow. There was a lack of animals til haul it, by not giving Mr. Dawson sutHcient time to retain those animals. Lac des Millo Lacs had to bo frozen to carry that material, 1 ami the immense distance and having to haul suppplies to the point where you had to begin your work enhanced the cost of it materially. 12202. Do you mean that in your opinion tho direction to do tho work at the time it was ordered to be done was b;id judgment, or that ; was good judgment, but the arrangements afierwai-ds were defective ? I-Xo; tho arrangements afterwards were the best that could bo made, tor the instructions issued by the Government wore too late. There »:w no time to have got provisions into those points close to where the Uork could commence. 12203. In this particular matter, did the Engineer-in-Chief take the [responsibility of directing tho men, or was it done by tho Government irrespective of tho Chief? — I imagine that the Kngincer-inChief was fariying out the instructions of the Government. 12204. Then you mean that whoever was responsible for the direc- tion of that work made a mistake? — I meant to instance it as a case in point, where surveys cost very much more than they would have I fost otherwise under other circumstances, and as an omission of a part of the woik that I did which I was describing this morning. 12205. What would be the best season of the year for doing that kind of work, if economy was one of the main considerations ? — It is a question that involves time. If the work had to be pushed through, loth summer and winter would have to be utilized, and as to which would be the best would depend. Had all things been favourable, I assume that the winter would have been the best. 12206. And what time was this? — This was in the fall, before the jsnow fell. The snow fell very late. It did not fall until some weeks I alter we landed there, which caused the delay. 12207. You think the work would have been done as well if it had I kin delayed a little ? — You see the snow was late in coming, and Prclliiiliiar)- Nurvey — lilii.- rroni north of U'lill<> VImIi IjAko to NniKly tiny, tliriK'K li» llliu k Ntiir. K<'tiu Lake, Kxpclixi' ciiils «l liy piirtlcs hiivliiK t(» ciitnpiit the rlv(!r until miow ciiiiH! (inil tip' rl vers wcio Irijzen Oovi'rninciit in- Ktriiclloiis too lute. Iliitl all Ihlii^H been fuvouralilo winter the >»e.st time for itoluij work. $ ,..'< 4''^ Bnow tatc in coining. MURDOCH 814 li '•^.' 'M • ■ ■ ii ■'•r |*r«lliiilnary »iirv«'y — I.int- rroninni-lli of Wlillt' FInIi l.nk«- to NRiiily Ilay«tlitii«'<' lo lllnck Ntiir Imnrftrlloal)lo to ludlto iipinoxl- niatc estimate o( aviTHKO cost per mile ofHiirveys throiiKli Kuch a roil II try, Somo wet land. $llti a mile. I'rcltmlnary survey. Rnlln-ny lAcatloii- Coa tract \o.C(>. Tn cliurKfori)f;rty of t\vonly-i)iii' tu lt)oa(e si'coikI KH) miles west of Winnipeg. LafoncliP Tuppcr responsible for lurnlslilnj,^ sup- plies for four part k'B. Line located rb far as Bird-tall Creek. wliiM) \v^ l{uidcuiil i)xi)(.'ii,>,i of this work? — There is no iinusiuU cir(iimstj»n(!OK to ho attrjljutyd liu'ther than not l)oin<^ jihh' to ^ot to the work. Wo would \\'^\■^^ ij,,^^„ otiiihlod to got to tho work sooiu-r if the snow luid fidlon, and done more work to represent ho much money, and gained more informiilioii. 12209. AVas it that tho season was an unfavourahlo one lor tho ojicia- tionsV — Simply hecauso tho snow did not fall, and that dol!iyin<^ otiom. lions was ono cause. Tho want of animaU and liio cost of atiiiiKii^. It they had been provided for l)y ono Departiuont of tiic (iovcrnmoM, lun] the accounts shifted to another, it would have entailed less oxpon.to. 12210. Can an}' approximate estimate be m".de which would sh'.-,v ihi average cost per mile of surveys if this desci-iption through > kIi j; country as those operations wore carried on ? — It would depend cniiiely on the locality and circumstances. 12211. Then could an estimate be male which would show an avorugo of mileage cost ? — Not unless you take the whole work throughout and tho number of milos run, which Avould bo a very difficult thing lo obtain. Some wet land which 1 have done myself on tho (icorginti huy Branch, for instance, is about $llGa mile. By Mr. Keefvr : — 12212. What Avas the charactor of that survey itself?— A ]»ii m,'- iiiuy. By the Chairman : — 12213. Is there any other matter connected with your pre7ioih work which you think it proper to explain before we proceed to the socoml 100 miles west of Winnipeg ? — Not now ; but 1 may think of somethini: uflor. 12214. What work did you undertake on the second 100 mi]o^wosl r — Tho location of tho lino from the western boundary of Manitoba. westward lo the Jiird Tail Creek. 12215. In charge of the party ? — Yes. 12210. What is tho number of tho party ? — It averaged about t\V(.;nly- one. There were two parties. The party was divided — one piiily was on construction and tho other was on location. 12217. J )id the construction begin as early as tho time you iiamo, January, 1880 ? — No. 12218. A) the beginning whtit was the number of your parly .'—It was about twenty-threo or twenty-four men. 12219. "Who had the responsibility of furnishing supplies? — A com- missariat olHcor named 1-atouche Tupper. 12220. Attachel to your party ?— For three parties — four in iVt. 12221. Was there any difficulty about supplies during the work?— No ; no difficulties. 12222. Has tho work been fini.shed ? — The second 100 milos ha.sbeen located as far as Bird Tail Creek. 816 MURDOCH to tl>e secoml k of rtomethirii; ,00 milo^\vosl line you iiami' )lics?— A com- -tbui- ill lai't. miles has been ItnlUvMjr i'oa- Htrii«iloii — 4-UVO nion. twcnly-llv.- in.n. I222fi. At what time vvas it located so tli:it thoy could comiuonco i-i"' roady for oporatioHH?— It was in July— about tho 9tli July. .•.mUttcior i>ih 12227. Were tho contractors ready to proceed with the? work before ^','"'''1'' '""'V ''' r I .1 1 r 1 "^ 1 I- ■ 1 .1 I 1 ('(1 Willi w(»rk •jijity — 1 biivo no idea. If thoy wore, tlioy did not while J was llicro. whiif witiwis * was tlierti. 12228. Vou are not aware whether there was any delay occasioned !.v tho abrtonco of location ? — Not that I am avvaro of. 12229. Have you obtained as favourable a line m was expected ? — A Found a favoma- vory favourable lino throughout. '''*' ""^'' 12230. Is there any other matter connected with tho second 100 miles vest which you would think it pro))er to give by way of evidence V — Ihave nothing to say in connection with tho second 100 miles. 12231. Havo you anything further to say about any matter connected with the railway that you think ought to l»e given in evidence? — There is nothing that I particularly wish to say regarding anything CHnnoctod with it at present. 12232. Have you traversed any of tho country over which tho rail- way is now built except while surveying tho lines which you have inontioned and in those localities? — 1 ha^^ not been in any portion whoio tho road is being built, except at Kaministiquia and at VViuui- H'ff. RniUvay Lo«-ii> tlun— foiiti-aftii Noi*« II anil IS. 12233. Have you been over the country on which the present con- >liuctod lino runs east of the Jiod River?— On no portion of it except at St. Ujniface station, and from there to the first switch points north. I was over portions of it previous to construction when T was choosing ;lie location. 12231. T)id y(Mi know tho nature of tho country before it was decided construct the lines where they are constructed ? — Certainly. 12235. IVhat portion of the country? — Tho portion of the country li'oni Stono i'^)rt eastward to the Winnipeg Kiver, and near Winnipeg lliver, along the swampy portion of the ground there. 1223(1. Had you, from this opportunity or from any other, a moans jf judging of tho nature of the country over which the present located lino runs? — From tho general nature of tho country between the Stone Fort and Rat Portage, tho crossing of Winnijiog River, there are >omc large swamps and iflat lands that it would be difficult to build a railway over. 12237. Do you consider, from your knowledge of the country, that piu could judge of what is now traversed by sections 14 ; 14 and 15. I ' ! t ;■ Told Fleming of the loiiK cU'pp Kwiimps In the part of the coun- try over which ulna ruQS. Rowan staled c hero was a i^ood tiandy bottom. Relntlonw he- twerii KowaB and \vilii«i«M. Told to submit bis inHtnictions to Rowau to see Jf tht^re was any- thing to add Had no doubt that his position had nothluKtodo with RuwuD. 12238. Ab;>ut what localiiy ?— About forty or fifty milos we.^i of Hai. Portage. 12239. How far would that bo irom the present constriif^tod line?— Those marshes may bo on both sklos of it. It may run ri^Iil thr(jii /•i, tlio middle of them for all I know, as I have not been in tliut lo-ulily Hinoe, but the ground wi)i'!d reiiuiro careful looking at to hoo that, tin.' lines were properly loc'.ted. 122-10. Do you know wliethor the present constructed lines p.is, over any of the country on which you had a knowledge before it wa- decided to construct them ? — I must have passed over them, bocau'O 1 passed where the present lines are constructed. I told Mr. Flemin" (it them at the time that I returned from this trip, of those swanri])-^, in conversation with Mr. Rowan and himself in the office at Ottawa. 12241. About what year was that?— In 1872. 12242. And did you mention the locality? — Yes; I mentioned that these swamps were veiy doop and very long in sonio instances, atid very low ground. 12243. What swamps arc you referring to ? — The swamp> that Mir- round the outskirt of the whole of that rocky country. 12244. Had you traversed the country north of Falcon T^ake at that time ? — I do not know whether I went to the north of Falcon Lake or to the south. My objective point was Rat Portage going east. 1 had nothing whatever to do between Winnipeg River and Red River. 12i45. Did you communicate what you considered to be the nature of the swamps and the difficulties of them at that tirao ? — Yes, 1 (Ji(i. 12246. Was anything said upon the subject— anything Author' — Nothing fuither than Mr. Rowan stated it was good sandy bi^tlnm. 12247. Were these remarks relating to any particular locality, or to the general character of the country ? — No ; to the general cliaiaci. r of that portion of the country, but to no particular locality. 12348. Did he state why he was of that opinion ? — He simi)ly nia.io the statement. 12249. Was anything further said by either of them on this Hulijt'ct .' No; it was very short. I dissented from it, and the matter d'-oppod. 15250. Have you traversed at any time the country north of Lake Manitoba by the Narrows ?— I never sa^v it. 12251. During your connection with the Pacific Railway, has thero been any doubt at any time as to whether Mr. Rowan was your superior officer or not, caused either by the nature of the instruction- or from any oiher circumstances? — As to the matter of doubt, th-' instructions that I read to you this morning, in which it was stated that I was to submit my instructions to Mr. Rowan, to Hupplcment anything that had been left out. I submitted it to Mr. Rowan previou- to ray coming up here. I had no doubt in my own mind as to my position, which had not .ing whatever to do with Mr. Rowan ; but .Mr. Fleming fold me to leave and that my instructions would be wont aftt>i me. It was a point I ^t Mcularly wished to avoid to have anything' to do, or instructions iv anything to do, with Mr. Rowan in any matters connected with the liv (ic Railway. 817 MURDOCH i west of iJal )e the nattiiv 12252. Wlion you received the wrilttiri in^Hliiiotiorirt wore they of tho same nalin'c jw (he vcfbal iriMU-U't.i<0 com- prehensive. ]225.'j. Upon the [.)r>int of yniir beio^ '^ulfiriiinato to Mr. Itowan, were they the same ? — No; I did not undcTKland !hat I was to he a .iilA>rdinato of MV. llovvan'.s. 12254. Upon the poiit of your i,ot h«;inj; a suhordinate of Mr. Iliiwan were they tlie same? — Tiiey sverc not so compreliensive. I :eferred ihom lo Mr. Rowan. 12255. You mean the plans ? — No; tli)(erly ? — From Red iiivor at Winnipeg. 12259. During the location of the line? — I had charge of the work; I was Buppcsod to be in charge ot the work. 122(J0. The locating? — The preliminary lino across at Point Douglas. 12261. Was the work as done a])proved of h-. the Hupeiior officer at Ottawa?— I hardly think i-d. WtK-n Mr, Fleming came here 1 had no (.ffi'ial knowledge of his coming. Mi'. Smcllie came up here as his loprescntative, as acting Knginecr in-(jhitd. 122II2. Was that when Mr. Fleming rufuf, up? — Previous to his coming. He instructed me to lay out the lirus acro-tMfi'om the connection with the Pembina Branch and make two cuLh, one on ea^jh side of tlie river, which I considered unnecessary. 122G3. Did yo.i tell Mr. Smellic ho?— I did, and I told Mr. Ryan so; I'lU I laid it out according to his insU'u<;tionH, 122G4. Has the question been decided by th^; Chief Fnt^inccr or any •me acting for him ? — The Chief Kngineei catr here, and from a con- versation I had with him, ho sain across the river. Had they taken Mr. Whitehead's old track the wlirdo thing could have boon (lone for very little cost. Mr. Smellie did not propo.so to do so, and made tho-io cuts, and I brought the iron acrosH the river dui-ing the winter — the iron. The ties were brought ucrortH the river under my 'tiroction during the winter when the ice VhiU. 12266. Is there any^other matter about the railway which you think proper to mention? — Simply in connection with that there was a ilitch matter. While Mr. Smellie was here I made application to the Council to got the right of way up Point I>;UL{ltti Avenue, which they ^'ranted. 52 tweeii KowAn and M'itueiia. WrHton Instruc- lioM" -. ..t no compreliensive as verbiil, Contract Xo.'lS. Disiippnived nf some work iloiie on tii'Ht UK) mUes. Witness In oliargo of work. FliMuini; innT.ruct- (m1 witness to Ifty out line iioro.ss from fVml)lnii Krtincli and makA two cuts which lie tlioudit iinneoea* SJiry, hut ot)eyn(i instructions. ("Iilef Enelneer sur;>rl8e>. I'.ut S-jiiclll.' orilcrcil ilil

  • urds o( Ulti-li U'll o)Mn. Fleiiiiiitf ordorod ditches to ln' cut unaller with the effector lilt iinutc- ly closing up cfltch. FlcrniDL'Consurf'd WiliicKS lor mis- takes for wliicli )io was not responsible. reason iVti-lKJicv- \\\)l Uowiiti iiad I.') .jurisilictioii ovr liiiii. Itowan no rlylit lo take pos.se.sslun ol witness's j>ri\ale otflcc anarts of tlfj praiiio, the ditch had \)Con commeiued hy the contractor. By my altnaliou o; the line hack to its original j)rojeetion on Point Doughis Avonuc, it left a ))Orlion of this ditch oj)en, some 140 cuh.c yards. Mr. Fleming's attention was called to this, and ho asked mo tin- reason of it. I told him. He was veiy much annoyed about it. and wanted to discharge Mr. Force. 1 cut those ditches which iiKilt- :i jog in them, and Mr. Fleming ordered them to ho taken out sinalloi' which hadtheetfoct of closing them up — hilling in when the men weie taking them out. Mr. F^leming tliought there was too much woik about them, and ho wanted to get the work done quickly. IFe tlioiii;ii' a smaller ditch would do, and gave me instructions in writing. I carried them out with those results. 12208. Was that work tho etlect ? — No; subsequently it had tiic effect of closing up the whole ditch and no drainage would go un. Subsequently, when he saw the effect of it he allowed them to be li.kei: out at what they would stand, .something a little le.-s than one to uiie. 122t winter, in my evi- dence this morning, in the matter 'd' going Into my oilice dmiiiu' nr> absence, l.')!! miles from here, and taking evetytbing oiil of it. \\h;i:- ever his instructions I'lom Mr. Fleming may have been piivauly, I Lav nevei' seen. ;iiit, that .Mr. iJouan oii.dii not to have taken possessioti ot your otlice? — (^irtainly not ; no niari of common decency should have done such a thing in my ali-eiiee— :/■' into my |!iivate offii-e and take my papers, and send douii to tiiy lii'ii'' for private papers connected with the contract -■ my own pajx-r- ;ii"i tho i)aj)ers connected wiih the contract. 810 MURDOCH 12271- Woio you at that time en^ngod bv the (iovoi'iiincnt on surni! (ither work ? — I was eitifagud liy the (lovernmont in lookinif at tlic :oal lino of i-ailway from the west end of tho I'loviiicc by the valley ul' the Assineboine to Souris liivor. 12272. Dill yon make any ivprosontation iip.-.n the siil);cct t) hoail- K< iHlioiia !>«■- (\« «'<'■> Kot*nn hikI %i iliM s«i-' Coil. I'lit't %)>. 4^. i|iiai' tors ? — 1 did. 12278. To whom ?— To Sir John Maedoniild and 6iv Charles 'I'lipiJeiv .My letter was sent to Sir ('harles Tapper. 'Q- 4. Did yon made a re|)rcsontation to any one at the he;id of the tngineeiiiii^ stafl? — All were awai'o of it. There was no necessity fur my ajtj ealing to those who gave instinciions to Mr. liowan to do 12:i7'). Voui- judgment on that may have been light, hut I am asking ')iily as to the liieL ?— JSo. 12276 Who was the snpei-ior ottieer at that time over both you and Mr. Rowan ? -Mr. Fleming. 12277. And yon did not commuiucato to him? — No, certainly not; a w<( u iifUM liooaiise a week after this thing had been done by ^Ir. ]'owan a letter ,,!ncv at wiUn'ss si 1 lime to me from Mr. Fleming, requesting me ti> take cliarge of the j'-'""''" ''■:""' ''"''■">■ iwond 100 miles west, because this woi-k was so light that it did inicsUni; iiim to not require keeping up two establishments in Winnipeg. iniona^'ini'^nVi'if's i.io'-o rnu i • .• .• . • fl- i ii i ■»» I-"! • an tlicii' was no 122(8. 1 hat was intimating to you in enect that Mr. r Icnr.ng con- nf.d ..i ki.'phi^ «iilercd one establishment could take charge of the documents and "p t'.vorstiii»n>.h- papers belonging to this nrst 100 miles as well as tho rest o( tins jm^ lor th.' liist H'ctioii ? — Certainly; that was a week after this act had been perpe- '"' ""''"'■ tinted. TIad I any knowledge of it previously it would have been a liilierent matter. 12270. Had this letter, whi(di you got a week afterwards, reached y(.u 'it'oro il would have been a ditleienl matter'.'' — Certainly; I was away I'lO miles when this letter arrived. 122^^0. Then did jon not got it urtil a week afterwai'ds because il had t't'cn lying here in \Vinni])eg? — My wife got it, opened it >Mid for- //,JjY^'^vr',',|<'','',I;![. «ai'(led the contents to moat (irand Vallev, informing me of the whole ni'"iiiiiitrs lui.i . I i •. » .-I 'i ,', , 1 I • III lii'iMi l:iUiM out nl ;r(um:*t;inces ; hut it w;is not until ji week alter the liiings luid been iii>(,f!'.,,., •liken out of my otllce thiit my wife got this letter. 12281. Did you ever endeavour to a-cerltiin iroiii Mi-. Fleming vholhor ho htid instructed Mr. Rowan to t;ilg to inuid in profile- of tho Pembinti Hiunch I'ronieof rvm- ^vhich 1 was asked for. (F.xhibit No. 111.) It is in lengths of ten mil(>s. l;',,'',','jl;^'i;iy'' ;i- it would be too long to give it all in one piece, and to .>uy at the 52i ", I' .t ,,■ I ROWAN 820 Contiact Xn. 1R. ProiniKPs profile of con tract,. h i Had notlilriK to »li> Willi (Irst, \m miles Willie Mm- (Idcli wiiN in c'liiirgo. Itnilwn.v L tion— Vffl Kivor Crossing. Witness ri'portcd to Chief KriKlneer tliat prefront vould htivc complied with your roqiiost iunl wiih id,, instructions 1 had received also proviou.s to your eoinni!,' iVorii Ou.iwa of having one prepared ready to hand you of the first 100 miles wesi but that ni}' statt" has boon so very much occupied that f havo u..'. been able to have it comj)leted, hut 1 will send it Id ULlawa aiU!i' vuu as soon as it is done. By the Chairman : — 12285. Can you say when the first 100 miles west was hnuU' i, ,v> as to jiermit the contractors to proceed with the work— ii jioi-tion olit?— I cannot just at this moment. I think he had commenced ins w )||< wjien Ml-. Murdoch had cluirge, if my memoiy serves tne iii;lit, aiiii when I de(dined to have anythintr to do with it. I think siuiio of it in tlio neio-jihouihood of the city had been set out and ready for woik before I took chai'ge of it. 1 cannot s-iy positively as tu the tinie because I bad nothing to do with it at that time. 1228(). Do you know who may bo considered re>pon,-iblf for thu location of the crossing at Selkirk ? Who niaile the i-ecomnii'inialiui, in the first instance? — I submitted a report of all the crossiiiii> and n\ the Selkirk one amongst them, and I reported to the Hngineer-iu-Cliiot that in my judgment, and the reasons that i gave, that that was (Ik; best crossing. . 12287. Has that report teen published ? — Ves. l;i28S. Was it selected by you or under your charge ? — Ves. 12289. Had you any directions indicating where you should endeavour to get the crossing? — Well, I think that i had. I was to sekcl tlie best in the engineering point of view; and 1 think it was added, it 1 remember rightly, but 1 could not be positive, that ifthere wasa poii,- where the Government had pi'oporty of their own, other things hei;,.; ecjual, that that j)oiiit should get the preference. 12290. Were those instructions in writing? — I think nut. 12201, From whom did 3'O'igct the instructions? — From the Kngiiieer- in-Cliief, Mr. Fleming. 12292. Do you remember where it was? — In Ottawa. 12293. W;is sufficient known at that time to give an ()]Mni(m— even an a|)proximato opinion — as to the eligibility ol the difl'eronl points?— i think it had boon partially examined — not so fully as it is at tlie pi'o.sent time. 12294. But there had been some data upon whicli a person niighl form Komo opinion ?— Yes. 12295. And it waw after consideration of those data that Mr. Fleiinrir indicated to you that the point was to be BolecteJ, other thin!j;s lieini; equal, where the Cfovernnient had property? — Yes; it was desirable that the value of the Government property should bo enhanced by the location of the railway if other considerations in connection with the subject were equally favourable. 1229(j. Did this question of Government property weigh with yon in the selection of iho site ? — It did. 12297. If the Government had not had property there, would ym then have decided upon another f^ .:)t?— I do not know that I should. S2l ROWAI^ I ilio Kii|.^i!ioer- Hallwi ny Lorn- lion— 12J98. Arc you doubtful about it, or«is it an opeit question with you ? "j'VMiiiiit. —Well, yes ; I think 1 could not be positive about it. I might have had, but the tact of so large an amount ot property being there at that spot certainly i?ifluenced my views very considerable. I thought it was liUel}' to prove most beneficial to the Government properly, and consequently to the Government, having a site for a city at hucli an mpni'lanl point. 12200, Assuming that the through lino was to pass south of Lake Uliinitoba, and that Rat Portage was an objective point, could you say rtheie you would think the best crossing could bo made c^xisidering the whole object of the railway ?— Selkirk, r2;iOO. The fact of the line going from Kat Portage by a route south The o\m ih.it tiur nfLnko Manitoba does not alter your opinion as to the eligibility of l','^'^/;;',*„''„7;;;,',',[ "' Si'lkifli ? — It does not ; if wo were going north, ofcour.-e there could be i<".'ivoshis()i.iiiior^ .. i 11 I i> • L J 1 • 1 iif Selkirk cross- no question at all, 1 fancy, in arybody s mind. in- unciuinK'.i. 123')1. But assuming that no expenditure had been made and that 'lie whole matter was an open question, do you consider that the lino iiom JJut Portage to some point south of Jjuko Manitoba could be made ;it the greatest advantage by having the crossing at Selkirk ? — Is that having it at the present time, or at the lime the point was seloctod ? 121502, At the pre«ent time, I say, assuming now that the whole NVonui sttic^t maltei' was an open question with these two data, IJat Portage mid ^i',']'|'!<\'^,7,'|':'*"'"^ M/rae point south of Lake Manitoba and the neces.->ity of a crossing at I!oii River, would you say by the light of the proseni that the crossing voiild be best at Selkirk ? — I think that, taking every ])oint connected .villi the subject into mature consideration and giving the best opinion Icould on the matter, ])rofe->sional opinion, I should select Selkirk still, 12303, You said that early in the period of survey-; you had charge Nmvcyn. mo season of about thirteen ))urties, not only ihoir engineeiiiig i'i'»iiii'<''« .i impf-r hijiei'Utions but the forwarding of supplies : could you describe the IJi'iirVnlorh^i. ,Vp'.',._ iialuro of the work reouirod to bo done and the ditlicullies which the ations mid the ,. „ . . ■.. 1 o I 1 . -i 11 I ,. sy-l«'iii 1)1 (or- hii't engineering pailies encountered r— I can; but it will l)e ol wmciinK mi|.|i1jch .ibiderable length, and 1 would therefore ask jiermission to forward Mo you in writing, as my time is so much occu|iied now that I cannot >iit it in the shape 1 would like to. 12304. Please do so, with the understanding that any facts that you Kniiwiiy i,?). «- 'tate will bo byway ot evidence? — Certainly. I now beg to band in a cohVi'hiJm s^h. •ipy of the various lines that have been run in the neighbourhood of n "ii«i i.-,. 'Voss lyake (Exhibit No. 112)— with the protile-i, with thoexccplion of ''>"ni- .u iim x no, ot which 1 think 1 stated verbally to the Commission beioro tiiat I ii'mmi .,t cross Itiavo a co})y of here, as it was made at Mr. Mai'ciis Smith's directions *""'*'■ and suggestion, when ho was acting Kngineer-in Chief, and 1 forwarded ton to him at once, as it was urgently needed, with a letter. I have had a ii|»y of our 4,000 feet plan maJo showing whore that ])rolilo was made. Ibi'lieve the profile itself to be in the ollice at Ottawa. This letter laiaiost explains the profile itself. It is a copy of a letter in which the imHIo was forwarded to Mr. Marcus Smith. (Exhibit No. 113.) 1 was ""/ij;",*,,,*'*"' *bilto state what amount of rock work had boon done on contract 15, CumrnctNo. is. Tor l|i(> \;iriiMi', |Pii riles. ii the time thodiscrei>ancy or error in the (luantity was discovered. I DiRprcjmn.y h« ta iielievo that quantity to have been about as follows: solid rock 111, '^"' ^^"' ' "*) cubic yards; loose rock, 2,121 cubic yards; total value of work J'^no at that date on the contract, accoixling to our approximate ROWAN 822 't. K h " ' e llalHvay Con- Hiriu'tioii— Coiitrnct S(o. 15. Total value ol work (lone when »l)8cri'i)onc.v in iisy (o say what was anil what was i>ot rock. tioii— Bed Biv«r Ci'OMsiiiK* Crovenimenl no property on aay point of Red HIver where navlsrable south of Selkirk. K<-lnl{oii<« l>r« twevii tvitiirNt ami Aliiraiofli— Contract No. 48. estimate, in rournl numlier.", $4^7,000. In coniuclion with tliis siihu'ct 1 am not awai-o what evidence at all Mr. Carre gave. 1 did sec ;i sIkii- synopsis of it in one of the papers, but I was too busy to read it all hilt in justice to him, suppo-sin^ that these ddcumetits wei'(! luji pm j,, before the Commission, I would like, on his behalf and indepoiKkni ni him, to put in those two letters. One is a letter of his adilios.soci i , Mr. Fleniint^, ot which 1 was furnished a copy, and it is dated May Tth 1878 (Kxhibit No. 114) ; the other is a copy of the telegi-am which 1 receivou from Mr. Carre, when [ was in Ottawa, on April Tth, ISl'.t (Exhibit No. 115). 1 think 1 have now answered every question Uui! was put to me, and as far as 1 aiu able, with the exception of one which was to the ell'ect of: by what percentage has the ohtinf^c hi contract 14 increased quantities. That was iisked mc .-(uiie days u'r,, Upon hunting tlii'ough the oltice I find that 1 htive not ti copy of ih,. protile of the origiiiiil line, and I therefore am unable in give the percentage in thai way, unless it bo a |)ercentage between the qiianii- ties as we have tictually finally measufcd the work, and what we liavr ])ublishod in the schedule of quantilie-;, and I would like lo .>?iip|)|. ment what I then said by the further statement that as iega!(i> iUr increase of rock, which wtis considered in the final estimate a> cdin- p:ired with what was published, that at the time the survey was nuvli, which I stated before was in the winter .season, and it was nut ou>v tn decide what was rock and what was not rock in every case. 1230.5. Arc }0u aware whotlier the Government has any consiclciabl' property upon the navigable portion of Kod Kiver, except at. Selkirk — I mean navigable from the lake upwards? — To what jioint / 12306. As far as it is navigtible. It is not considered thai the livor i- navigable at all seasons ? — No. 12307. During the season when it is navigable continuously ?—Nui to my knowledge ; but I made careful enquiry into the subject when 1 came here at the Dominion Lands office, i believe tli'it the (iovernnuMit are not in possession of any extent of property at all between Si. An- drew's Ilapids and Lake Winnipeg, except the Indian Re.serve, iflhaliH considered (jovern ment property ; I presume it is The Inlian Jioservt; is immediately north of the present crossing. 1280-^. But none south of Selkirk? — None south of Selkirk, even up to Winnipeg that I am aware of. I would stale, although to soin • extent a repetition of what I hive already stated before this eveniiit; that the (question of (iovernmont property having been subiuitleJ {<• me a.s one which would somewhat affect the location of the cfussini.' one of my oarlioat enquiries when I came here, at the Dominion L;iii office, was where the Government possessed property along the rivei. 12309. Is there any further matter which occurs to yon to ;,nvc by way of evidence now?— There was nothing, except wliiit 1 desire to say or behalf of the stall' who were employed unler nif until I came hero to-night. I could not help overhearing what \v;^^ said by the previous witness ; it is too late now as it Roems to bo a |h'i .sonal matter, iiltogether too trivial for the Commission to take up tlu' subject at this eleventh hour, I have notliing to say about it at all. 1: I am called upon 1 can answer; but I should have liked that Mr. Forc".' the gentleman who was in charge of Mr. Murdoch's r-fflco here, wlion I received orders from Ottawa to cleir everything out of it, should l"| asked whether I did it in a gentlemanly or an ungentlemanly nianntr 823 ROWAN RrlHtlonM Im-> anil Miirilncli — lat llio river 12310. For the present you can j^ivo your own uccount instead of ^^^^^^^^ j^.,,^^ Mr. Foi'ce s ?— My account in very simple. I i-eceived orders from Ottuwii Kownn'siincoinit to immediately take everythinpf out of the ottico that had boon occupied oi inscntiTidi; !,y Mr. Murdoch and bring Mr. Force down into my otfice. It j^ •^'""•''■"•"'^'"n""^- iin]Kissible for me to go into the matter without refei-ring to porfcun- •il'lit's. 12311. We do not caro to hear personalities? — Therefore, I would s\y : owing to the fact that there was some slight ditliculty betWv^'en ill'. Murdoch and myself (a gentleman I have always thought con- sidcM'able of j, owing tD that fact and to tho fact that he was absent froin town, I was particularly careful and delicate of the wa}' in which I did the matter ; so much no liiat nothing was known about it at all, 1 liolicve, in the city, until alter Mi'. Murdoch's return. 1 dealt altogether with Mr. Force, and 1 told him to gather up the piipui's and to make an inventoi-y (l<'iiii inli>riiii'il uitni's.s tlml noiitiiiot IiikI lit'.'ti KIVl'M t(l AikU'i.'WS, Jofics iV Va) , aiiit niivlsi'd lilin to ui't :tii liili'ri'sl with iIm'IU. Witness (IocMikhI as thi'lr pridi's were too low lor lliu work. r» J. J Mcdonald 824 « i I, Tcnderiag— Ooutract Mo. 43* InllacncinK €l<-rka. OfrercitCliaplrau *t,(lill) to Itl'lllCC Jilm to iirevcnt Hrnlth frorn piit- tinK up tM'J'iirlty tor AmlH'ws, Join-" A ( <>. KruM-r ctiilorscil tiroriilHc rnailc liy McLkji'.iild to Ctiapleaii. Novcr [irevloii^ly tfMiipi<«l Cliap- Irau nor iin> our- friw ill Ui'iiiirl- iiient. Pal* that passed between us, but I am ]»erfcclly salis- tii'fl that Mr. Fiaser felt that that debt should be paid, thai bo was a party to it, and if ho had remjiinod in tho firm he would have paid it. Jle may not consider himself now responsible, as he is out of tho t^rnv and the firm should assume it. 12318. Was that occasion, in the presence of Mr. Fraser, the tirst ok which you had arranged to ])ay Mr. Chapleau anything for liis infliience? — Tnat is the first time I ever said a word about it. It was tho lir.-t intimation. IJust turned around and made the otter without consult- ing any person until 1 made it. 12319. llaii you previously made him any oflbr for any siniilai' -oi-- vice, or in any way connected with any of tho business of the Pauitic Railway ? — No ; uor to any one else in tlie Departments. 12320. Js this explanation to-day as you uiulorstand it, atVoctini; only the arrangement as between you and Mr. Fraser — 1 mean in .so lar a- it differs from your previous story ? — That is all. 12321. It does not afl'ect in substance what you said before, as to the arrangement with Chapleau ? — No. I mtide the arrangement with Mr (.'hapleau for $4,000, and I paid $.500 since with the cheque of tho company. 12322. So that what j^ou wish to make plain to-day is, that iht arrangement was different from that described by Mr. Fraser?—! want to explain the whole details of the arrangement. You asked mo the question before, but it did not strike me at tho time, it was >>' sudden. ♦ ;■ 826 LITLE WiLMAM B, LiTuE, Hworn and examined : By the C/iairman : — 12323. Where do you live?— At Jltit Portage. 12321. How lonji^ have you lived tlioro? — One year or iipwardn. 12325. Hoforo that whei'o have you lived? — At the Foil Kiunccs Lock. 1232fi. Were you connected in any way with the works at tiie canal ;,; Kort FranceM ? — Vch. 12327. In what capacity? — Ah lajjouror. 12328. Who waH the foreman under whom you woi'kcd? — There weio nveial foremen there : the two McLennan'H. 1232'J. At what sort of work wore you employed? — In rock one part if the time, and at one time I was engaged at the Hteam-hoisting ma- liino. 12330. Who was the person to make up your time, and the Htuteincnt if it on the pay-i-oll ? — There were several ])ersons, as far as I know ; .lioro was halfa-dcv-en at one time there. 12331. D.) you mean for the same period that sevci-al pi-rsons would iiuve the I'csponsihility of making up the pay-roll ? — Wit*. 12332. Would you explain how that came about. Is it not usual for ■ine person to have the i-esponKibility of each sot of labourers ? — Yes; there were several persons there; there was Mr. O'Connor — Mr. Wilson's hiolher-in-law — and Mr. some person, who kept a hardware store there. Vou did not give mo a chance, for all my papers are in litigation now ; my papers ai 8 all suppressed ; T have a memorandum of the whole thing. However tlie man used to keep a hardware store down on Main street ; his name is L. R. Eentley. 12333. Do you i-emembor uhelher your time was correctly stated on lie pay-rolls? — I think so; at l?asL I have ever}' reason to tliiid< so up lii certain time. 12334. Have you reason to think that the time was not correctly natcd for any j)eriod ? — 1 have. 12335. What period ? — For the period when I was living thci'e; it was i.ol correctly stated then. 1233G. Do you mean for all the period ? — No, for j)art ot ihe period. 12337. What part of the period ?— In April, 1878. 12338. In what respect was the statement incorrect'? — Jiocauhe I did not receive my money in the first place. 12339. Doe.s the pay-roll state that you received the money?— I fannot say that it does, because tho>e pay-rolls were issued very often ihere, onco a month, between Wilson and Sutherland. 12340. Then how can you say that the pay-rolls were incoriect ? — The pay-rolls may be all correct, as far as that is cjucorned, but 1 did ii"t receive my money. 12341. Did not you understand me to ask you whether the pay-rolls were correct or incoirect in their statement? — I cannot say wliother Fort FiMDCfit Lock— iMMnN|K«-iiieut uf work. FCmployod as liilioiiriT (111 llt<> caiuil III Fort Knincc'S. Si'voral persons liiiil r(!N|ii)iiMlljiU« ty of iiuiklni; n['). p»y-n»ll. Time corrpftl^ Hiatcil on pay- rolls up to u (;c>rtalri perloil. Id April, 1.S7H, not pitl'l. f'annot say tho pay-roll wfts U>. correct. ^"^■i LITLE 82i; t'nrt Ki'ancrN Lo coriocl or not. \SM2. Tlion you iiro nut ii\A<- lo sny whotliei' tlioy aro ciiricc! i>y iiol? — All tluit I ktiow irt simply oiio tiling: liiero was no payineiii tlion Jit nil, at the tiiiif I was llicii'. Tlioro was no pay ilny oruiiytlmiK ,,|' tliut kind. Evorythiti^ was done lliruii^li Mr. WiUoii, a^ far a> I kuiU fSOO. 12343. Aro you sj)eakin. Who else was pi-esent ? — Mi'. Thompson, the deputy Mipeni,- tendent. 12350. Any one else ? — They nlloweil me half time for it. Tin i ■ were several others pro>ent, but 1 could not say who just now. 12351. Was it understood, in that arrangement, that you were to give half of your working hours to the business of the Lock ?— Vo-i. 12352. And }ou wore to be paid for half time? — 1 was paid for Uu\ time from the (Jovornment. 12353. IIow much of your time did you give to the Govenimoii' work ?— Some times more, or loss; very little. 12354. Was it understood that you were to receive the profits of th ; time which you devoted to this paper?— Yes. 12355. And did you devote much of your time to that? — The wiio time, almost. 12356. I understood you to say tliat you wore not paid for the liino for which you expected to be paid by the Government ?— No ; lint the balance of the time after the works wore closed down — the balaiiro| that was duo me then 1 have not received. 1235*7. Could you say how much pay you received altogether iov the time during which you did not i-eally work for the Governmoni.'j — 1 meant to say perhaps the whny, i'nmi momnry, in roimil miinlioi's, ulioiit liow mucli time you wcmo paid tor? — A your anii u-liait' I ^lJoul(| say, In round numbers — no, uhoul u year. 123()0. For this one yoar'n pay did the Govornmont get any bi'iii'til uf your laimiir ? — I suppono thoy did. 12361. What bcnelit ? — 1 was trying to open up the (■(mulry, in thu tirst plufc. 123G2. What else ? — I was working ut opening up tiio country und allowing tho bonofilM loi- emigrants to go in tlior and Hotlic. 123(i3. Tiiut wiiH by your work upon the newspaper, was it? — W'.h. 123ti-l. And is (liat what you alhuk^ to when you say that tlio (lov- (.'iiiiuent got the bcnotit of vour work? — Yes. 12."{'!5. Is there any other matter eotinoetod with the b'lsinos^ ol lii.- (iovornment upon which you can give us intorniution ? — There is. 1236(i. ConnocttjJ witli the Lock? — Yes. 12;{<;T. What is it?— You had belter ask ino. 12368. 1 have asked you? — I will not volunteer any evidence at all on my pai't, but you can ask me anything you wish. 12369. Will you infoi-m u.s as to the subject upon which you wish to k' asked ? — Certainly. 12370. Name the subject ?— fn connection with the works. 12371. ^Vill you give us your information in coi:ucction with tin- works ?— I will. 12372. I'lease do so? — In which branch ol the "vork do you mean ? 12373. Wliichevor you can give us any information on. If there is more than one branch, you can give us information on one branch first ? —There arc several branches: there was wood work, and other works besides tlial, and there was a general store there. \Vood-cutting, steam- boat running, atid all that kind of thing — several branches. 12374. Can you give us any information on the store branch ? — I can. 12375. What is it? — Mr. Wilson was running a store for the (iovorn- iiient, or at least it was supposed to be in his own niime afterwards. It iippearcd to mo, I did not know, buL my impression was that tho store wiis run for the benelit ol the superintendent, from reasons that I have got papers to show that every ])ay day l)e made u|) tho accounts and Kcnl them in for signature to Mr. Sutherland, and tliore was not a |)ay ilay there from 1876 after that until — there was no payday until the work was suspended, there was no pay liay at all. The money was used for other purposes, 12376. What other purpose ? — 1 do not know. If I had my mem(j landum I could tell you all about that part of the thing. Men wore om])loyed there to kill cattle, beef was sold then in Mr. Wilson's store, .iimI iho balance of the beef u ent to the men's boarding-house. Govern- mtiit men were paid to look after this beef antl kill it, and they were liolding responsible situations besides. There wore two or three men paid to look after that. Besides this, there weie thiee men i)aid for hunting up timber lands. Their wages and time are supposed to bo in the books. Fort V>rauceM Lock or tvurk. I'lilil tur i\ >i-itr. ' iiiM' viiliic for I Ills piij liy > rvliitt tlii'iiiik;|i iii'\vs|iii|M'r to iiliiii ii|i I'Muiil ly, bllspi'clcd ll,;il siort- was n ii lor Im'ih 111 i)( si.|M'r- liiit'iidi'iil. Men sii Id to l>f> liiliilliiK ii|i llrii- IxT MinllH lor .Iiliiu'h HiiltiHr- land wlilli' In piiy ()r(i()Viriimi*iil . mm LITLE 8.'8 Fort Fi«nc«s Ir James Sutlierlaiid ? — 1 knew by spcakin/^ to the men tbt'inselvoH, arjil I krifW that their time went down on the books, because 1 saw tlu'm afterwards, ard I afterwards saw Jtinios Sutherland placinLf scrip irlh,. and Barents hands to locate certain limits on the liainy Kiver. I2.'{7!K Well, what further upon that subject ? — I do not know ;ui\ further than I had a j;')()(| many excursions on the Rainy Lake sUaiii boat. The chief cook was taken from the buanliii<^ houf^e tlu;re. and there wore several other cooks, and Government tttut!' taken to riii|ipiy those excursions. 12.'{80. I)() you know the names of the men, or any of llnim, wU,, wei'e employe I liy .lames .Sutherland at the tiovornmetil exj)i'ii^i / — J do. 12381. Please give the names? — Stewart was one. 12;{82. What was his first name? — I think James — oi' .fohn — I \u\«>t[ I k- 9lniin|(«-iiiritt 'It \V(irk« I2;i!>.'{. I> tlioro any oihor Itruiich ol'tlio bii-iiioss ii|)(>ii wliicli you caii rive UH iiifbiination ? — Noiio thai I know of. 12.')0i. What ThoniiisoM was it, wlio was present when you anl !^"tiir'riaruiniii ' ' ■ '' ,^r(•^^<■lll when liicli you woie not labourintr ' — Mr. •»•»«•/;••'•*'» IiiiIiIInIiIiiK ii<'tv«|ii«p«^r. ]U\^\i Siitlu'rland woie aiTaii;j;ini; ahoiit your |>a|)er, and ab >ut you (it'irig paid ibr the lime durin ir w Siitlioi latul was not j)rt'Hent at all. IJiOf). You Haid Hugh Sutliofland and Tlxunpson ? — I heg your j)ar- .Ion ; 1 did not mention Suthorland'rt name at all. ri-'JOO. Yuu see that Hugh Suthei'hitnl i.s present now ? — I see; hut 1 ill not say he was present when the arningetnonl was made. IL'.'JII?. Vou s:iid 80. You said that Hugh Sutherland and Thompson wore pro.- en t ? — 1 beg your pardon ; I made a mistake iC I said mi, lurause ho wan not present. I'l'.idB. Who was present ? — Mr. Thompson was. 1239!). What Thompson do you un-a'. — the (rovernmenl agiMit? — I iiuan Sutherlar.d's agent, lie was wuperinlendont of Mi-. Sutliurland'> ; lie understood tho whole thing. r.J2()0. Who else was pj-esent ut that arrangement ? — I cannot say now, 1 have not got my memorandum and papei's to show. Other parties were present at the time. 12201. Can you name any of them ? — I could name several of them, lilt they are not here. 12202. Perhaps wo can get them ? — I doubt il very niueli. 12103. J)o you doubt whether you can name them ? — 1 do; however ihi' books will show the arrangement was all right. 12404. You are under oath to tell the truth, and I am endeavouring toascortain if you know anything : do yousay you can name any otuors who were present ? — 1 cannot just now. 12405. Ih there any other matter eounected with tho business of the lort Frances Lock, or in any other way connected with the Pacific Railway, upon which you can give us information ? — No, I gue.ss not. 12406. Who HUpplied the plant for the newsp.apor of which you !iHvo spoken ? — Tho public. 12107. You did not advance your own funds ?— Xo. OtliiT norsiins will) 1 lionipHort when iiminKM- mcnt wns iiiuili>. Forgets ILoIr tllllllO.S. ■*<'':f, 1 llIi'Ui Sutherland's examination continued : By the Chairman : — 12408. Tho last witness speaks of an arrangement by which he was to devote his time to tlie publication of a newspaper at Fort Frances, and that he was paid as if he was giving his timo altogether to the public service, when in fact ho was not giving his timo to tho public Service but for his private advantage in connection with this paper: do Ivouknow anything of such an arrangement, and if so what was it? — 1 know nothing of any such arrangement. 12409. What do you know about the newspaper arrangement ?— I Itnow that a small sheet was published there a few times abK)ut the size SUTHERLAND Knows notliini;. or an arrango- munt by which LItle was paid by Qovornraent whUe devoting hi in so If to the publication or H newspaper* p SUTHERLAND 830 Fort FriiiK'L-H MHilHKrniPiit (if vtorha lh>w iK'wxpagx'f f line til Uc Mill I- uftiiat (pointini,' In :i parliamentary r«tiirii\ Tliis man Mtle .vi^ working in tlio cocis-pit as a lal^(""'er lor some time, an was ti lirst man who ;poke to me ahniit it, and a^ki'd ine if 1 w )uld give aii\. thing. I sMid I would give a small suhscrii»tion, and i did give $.") n;' jiu or somothintr like that. 12410. Oii( of \oiir own ineaiir V es ; oil t of rn y own iiicaii' Vnfi- at Hi '-'lit. Not .'iwaic that his hrotlier linl any liiiihcr limit') or I hr.t iiHMi were eiiL'ajfed hunting thetii up tor liiui. gellier. I hiid not .seen the man, did nol know him, and had rie\er li.n.|i introdiicod to him. He cumo tiiere looking for work. I di(l it on ihe strength ol Mr. Fowler's representations that it woiiM be a iiieo thinr to have a little paper there and bring l"\)rt Frances iiito notic(;. 12411. Have you ever learned that his time was paid lor hy 'Ju '.lovornmenl while lie was devoting it really to his (;wn interests ?— No; and 1 do not he'ieve there was anythinir of the kind. As to aiiv ari-Hiigement having been made with me, or that I iun ac(piaintel with any arraiigements of tiiat natine, is simply without foundation. I kinrs nothing alioiit it. only tlitit the paper was |)ublished there. I 'iiidcrMooil that he worked at it at nights. It was not very iicavy laboiii ; i' required very little editoritd labour and was a very small allair. 12412. The l.ist witness speaks of some of the men who were iti th, om]iloy of the (lovcriiment at one time, and who were in the eiiiplov- m >r<'r,Pnnan. rock loreniaii.had men hum ini; ii|> i iiii- her llmiis. entot'thi.^ (iovernment ai'terwr.rds, liaving been engtiged in hiinlii': up timber limits for 3'our brother Janios ; do you know anything ofiha. matter? — I do not ; I am not aware tliat he htid any timber limits. 12413. Arc you aware that he emt>loycd any men in the (i')v,:ii ment pay to search for timber limits? - 1 am not aware of ;in\-t!nii;r o; the kind. 1 think, perhaps, I can account for the ruini>ar as I hi\ird it li-- t()rc, li was re])rescnted, and rumoured that Mr. \l. McLonnan, wlm w.i rockd'oreman, and who I understand is in tin* city to-dav, ;dtl have not seen him. he is a eon'raetor on section lOilu'll B, he wa-i mv loc foreman at the time, and he wtts iMigage I at that timt; tind h:id hiiiiting up timber limits ; but that I and my brotlnM' were intcn lint witness In iin with him, as far as 1 am concerned, 1 deny — 1 deny tliat anyiliin..f way Intel evtpd. - . .^ . ._ . til' r ol ;inM was ever Iked of even. If Mr. I{. Mcl.eiiiun like to have him e.xtiminot IS in the fit}- ■1 I Kxtent or wit- ness's inleresi in land. 12414. As far as you know, there is no tnilh in the stoiy that-ii;!'- you or your brother made use of the Cloveriimeiit labourers to hiiiit n'l timber for either of you? — Xo ; I hav(i not owned any. -01 Inis t'v brother owned any, except what. 1 have obtained from , ho pros Goveriuneiit ; nor did [ jmrchase or scrip any land out ihuro, I m y brother scripped a half a sect ion, or a (juarler of u sectic eiiL nir. ,>n. of scme-l tliinir of that kind. 12415. We are not eiKjuii'ing into hmd which ymi or y Mil' brother have obltiined, but lo' the service of the labourers who soanhni for timber? — I positively M>My that an3-iliii'.i of t'le kind ever t( "livl 1 ilace. *» * ftJl SUTHERLAND I Lille Ail-. 1 il liocaint' rnii'lo tn^vt. liiit In; \v,i- i-i this Miaii could ;,'(.'l u)i liJit |)Mri)i)>i wK-r w!i^ iL \\>\ i^ivf .111 - ;ivi; ?.")>.;•? 10 iiioaiis a, lu- ll 1 iiover \<'\']\ dill it oi: tl,'' ji nice thinr liticc. ,il ior l»y '.11' 1 iiitoir^th '.■' — I. As lo aiiv (liiainlC'l w'.lh lation. I kiiii'.s '. I •.iiKk'iMoiMl iivv liiliour; it ! ail ail-. lio were ill ill- in tlic! fin]i!oy- :rri\ in hiinliiiir vtiiin^jf ofiliir. l)or limits. II) (111! (l')v.';n if ;iii\'t!iiii_' 'i; us I licai'ii il I'- .iinun, wliii \v.r. :iv, ailliOMul! ! Iwa-t my mtk- iitid had III''! \iw in(ore-lfil nvihin;.,' ot Th'- '•i \i>l ip<'>'-;'i(iv (■> I'lil I wil 111 S'«i's |(ir I he piiriHisi' 111' i-c. MIL'S iiH'i-ity I )ry lhaL'''.i.i " e!'-i to liuiit 11' y, r,)l !>U-* V \ \u\ -11'* l>l't'^'"'"l )iit, there, i)Ul elioM, oi' >''inc- lyiiu or y'"ii"l 'who seiirc'hiiij \i\m\ over toiilc| Fttrt. Fi-niirrH l.iMk — 12110. Is tlioro any other siihje'f <'./rmc'Ctc-cs, men who Jvoi'O CMigaircd hn- nie on ihc woi'k-^ who out(ht to Unow a pK)d deal jiithut it and who oiii^ht to he exuriiined, 1211Y. Arc thoy hero in tlie room ? —No; hut there is .Mi'. Mi LMinan, jxhi) was formerly on^'ai!;ed hy mo aw foreinan, I have jii.st hoard that he in the city, lie i-> the foreman umlcr whom Liflo worked, and may i'hai>s kiioWMimei hing ahoiit the pi-imiti;^ rn'itf -r. i24H. I'l^on the >ul>ject ol' heariiiLr furl.-;' «;vid. •?((■.•, tlic Commi- .iicrs think it j)ropcr to say that the cvidi^i-! e i^ivc.u hy Lille today has |yil(lis|ilai'C.d in any way the impres-ion whirdi they liuvc received fioin i'iiit"inL;'i ;iiiner witnesses upon this same suhjecl, and it will not ho ne(.'essary ' |;oi.'all any otliei" wilnesses f )r ilie pur|»o^c of ndmllin/.^ his testimony ; Ijtliryou wi.-«h witnesses to he calle) upon thtifration. 'fhei'c has heen a ^reuf d<:ai said some time |)L'oahout the reckless manner in whi( h this work was conducted, and iliiiow of no ))artics who are hetter ahic to judi^e, or irive evidence, Jian those who had charf^e, and wiio iiii;^ht la know all al'oiit it. 1 1^111 siiv this much; tliat I am veiy mu(h ph aj»ii n has taken up the heads (A' tliis hunin<'-(H and examined them, '••teiid of what ha.s heen done hefore, taking up the men from tlie rock- :i!:*auii others who knc^'- nomore al»'»ut it than lh«" man in the moon '". JVIii'ii ( was examined at )ttawa. I ^avc a h^t of all the headmen — Ik'ii who ouirht ^o know if there is anythin^^ wrong— and they refused fiibpa-na ther.i they refuseii to examine riiy'clf; they had witnesses iiei'v) who kiKW nolhiiii/. eompaiatividy cpeakifii.', almut ihc working' liiho canal. 1 am i!;hi(l i.ow to liave this npj».M'hinify of havini; them bimined. ^\r. McLennan is, probahly, the only other important man ; as 1 said Indole, 1 do not know t.hat he i:iu thr<»\v any new lis^'ht btlie siihjcf t at ail. 1 have not talked with him at all. Thero is a prgo in which ho hims( If is directly conceiriod, and I do not know but le would like to have the oppoitnnity of charing it up. i2Hi'. You are aware that the Commis-iotien .-upposo 1 that their liloiirs, as far a« taking; evidence is cMiicerncd, were circled on S,;Mirdav l;'ht last, and the ndjoitrnmont took place wilhoiit naming' a further [ay. and tliat the opcnin;!; ot the Imaiing to-duy was caused hy a witness i|lioai'ing for the jiurposc of giving evidence. It will not he viiiy con- leiiient, since all arrangements are made lor our leaving the city, to ]niiiiiie the hc'iring indetiniti^ly. If you ure ahle to get Mr. pl.cnnan here almost immcliatel , u will he very glad to hear him, jthei'wiso we shall have to deler luaiing him until we open the sittings Kiiiti at Ottawa ; then vve shall [)rohalily a~k him to como down if you pKidoi" it nocessaiy? — 1 do not know that it will he m-cessary; ii is Not iiti;r^sar>- ily in the event of some of those old chargen hein'< revived it will ho >i'o*i^,'nuun! wssary to have him examined except yo^i wi-h to have him oNam- Wihll.s t'. li;r, Mi'l.cnn.in i'.\iiiiiliii'il. -■! A '. SUTHERLAND 832 i t ! Fort Francefi l^ock — MHimiremeiit of work* Small nccouiils '.iii|>aivonld not give up his books. I/Oiran's account, inod 11^ t<» the genonvl woikin^ ofthe concern which, in all prc-iMbiliiv will be a cori'oboi'ation of the evidence of Mr, and f^elf. Thotnj)«on, my ljruU,..| "u{ 1 \VltncRs t'lanks <.'ommlssioncrs for tlieir impar- tiality. 12420. In the nioaritiino, will yon endeavour t(, o-^t hir.i quickly as possible, now? — I will. There is one more maLler, wish to touch upon, if I have the privilege of doing 8o. 12421. Von liave will; anything connected with the I^icilic ij;,i,. way? — There are a small number of accounts unpaid l)y the Dopart- inent, which are just and proj>er to bo paid by the liovernment. /Vli these p.ipers — 1 speak of nolhiiig but what I have on tile in the bcpai". niont loi.g ago These ])eoi)le, of course, are bothering me, cxin'c'inr that 1 should be in a position to get their money, and J wi--h t* have k put on recoi'd that 1 have done all that I can do. There is a niiinUr of accounts — I could furnish a list of them — in the Deparimoiit, anl what I refer to is that these accounts should bo paid. TIk'i-c is ;i balance also due to myself. The (Jovernment owe mo about $>i(h), anl the paj'masler about §ilJ(). '^Phis arose in tiiis way : we we;e kin! n long while at the close of the works without money, aiid wo nutj.. applications for money to pay up the accounts, and supposed ever)- lio:' that money would arrive ; and we kept paying out and paying out until we had overpaid this much. Afterwards, Uie money was .sc;,! hero to pay all the claims, but we were not paid. 1 have made ]ici , application to the Depailment several times since for a scltlc'neiM. I asked the l)epnty J^Iinister last spring, if ho knew any jii>t reason wliy I should not be pail ; ho said : " No, except that 1 ha 1 no- given up my IvMiks." lie insisted that that was the reason. I ha.i declined to give up the l)oolsi i, that was appointed, and the Deputy Minister told me that that was the only reasori he knew of. lie askc i the accountant, Mr. Bain, in m, presence, if he knew if there was anything wrong in ray accounts ;aiii Mr. IJain said that there was not. This amount stands to my croJit iii the books in the iJepaitmont and I have not received it. 124^2. Is there any other matter ? — I may pay that the paynia^li", Ml. Logan, whom you may have the opportunity of examining,', liu- been writing to me. lie is a jwor man and he has paid out this niDnev in good faith, lie has tried in vain to got it. He has asked me tolojk afior it. I suppose ho oxj)ect8 mo to put it on record in this Commis- sion. (The witno.-s then retires to see if he can find Mi. McLennan ii^ the city, and returning continues) : I'cannot tind Mr. McLennan any where in town and I do not wish to detain you any further on that account. I have onl^' one thing more to say. 1 huvo to return my thank? to this Commission for the very impartial manner in which 1 hav;; been examined, and their fair conduct; and I am very glad to have thi.* opportunity of putting my thanks on record for having heard those who ought to know most of the Fort Francos Locks. 2'he Chairman : — The Commissionors do not think they are cntitk'Jj to any thanks, for whatever they have done was entirely from a ncnsc of duty. They have granted you no favour but only what you were! entitled to. 1 ( ■•' '. 833 TRUDEAU m:itt('i', thai Trlrirrnph— th October, ISSO. <'"""•'"• «"»• »• TotissAiNT Trtjdeau's examituUion continuod : By the Chairman: — 12423. Whoii you wore before us on tlie last occasion, you said Uial ciuu'.)! pioMikt the docMimonts relating; to flu; Barnard contract (So. 3) w'ore not in the llViu cunt^aci'T'* missossion ofyour I)cj)arl.nicnt, but were with the .Ministt-r ()t .Insiicc : have they been, retuinei to your Department «o as to yive you contiol of them now ? — Not yet. 124 '4. Tiion do 1 understand thiit you are not able to produc e any of them ou the j)rosent occasion? — No. 12425. V'bat is the next i;ontract in order of time tiiat we liavc not i»iiri x^ , I' Rill In — ed f—yio. ii. coiiiiiu t xo. «. 1242o. What was the subject cf that contract ? — Purchase of rails. 12427. Was it lot by public competition ? — Yes, 1242H. Wore tenders invite I Ity advortiscnicnt ? — Yes. 1242'.'. Have you the copy of the adverlis(,(ment ? — ^'e» . I now Advert is. nuiu |)imiuce it. (Lxbibit JNo. lib.) iluc.-.i. 12430 1 see by the ])aper which you produce that ther»! were two advert iseiuenfs lor rails : was there any contract h'l upon the first advcitiscinent alone ? — No. 12431. Then the first advertisement resulted in no transaction ?— The ComrmiH n»h. second advertisement was simply a posti>oriement of the first. *' "^'" * 12432. Then the tirst by ilse'f resulted in no transaction ?— Yes ; tlieie was no transaction. 12433. Do you know whv the time was extended? — The time was extended to aflbrd opjiortunity to parties living at a great distance. 12434. Had there been any tenders put in uj» to the time named in the tirst advertisement: the bth of October, 1874 ? — No. 12435. Have you the tenders put in at the time named in the post- i-'if't of temi.rs poiiement ? — Yes; this is the list of tenders which I now pr()du('e. lialill.^n'l/s,'.,.!'",'" (Exhibit No. 117.) a.lv.Tllsem.n-. 12436. This doeumont is a schedule of tho tenders ? — Yes. 12437. Witli a report by Mr. Fleming, tho engineer ? — Yes. 12438. Have you the tenders themselves? — Yes; I now proiluce them . 12439. You make these twenty-live tenders? — Yos. (P^lxhibit No. ''.'^venty-iiv,. t.n- . .n \ Ut-TS put. 111. 12440. Do you know whotlior the tenders described in the Return to Tondois for mil-. tho House of Comm(»ns of the 2nd of March, 1876, comprised all the Moiitreiir "" tei dors received on that subject at that time ? — 1 have just compared them and I find the printed list contains tho list of tenders for tails to he delivered in Montreal. 12441. Were there tenders for deliveries at other places which were accepted and acted on ? — Yes. 12442. Were those tenders diti'erent in substance from the tenders invited by advertisement: \ understand your udvertisement alludes 53" TRUDEAU 834 purchase of Raila— CoiilraclM NOM. (i niid 11. No further com- peiltlKii oalled for al'ltT recflpt of ti-ndiTH. lO.iHMttonsordoriHl Jfroin w Vale ( o ^I'ontrncl 7). ^),(MH» tons with plafcs, *<■., from Mersey Steel aiul Iron Co. (eontrael X). 5,00<» tons and r),i»(Ki tons (Icljvi'ifd free at W<>\ king- ton, Cnnihcrland Iron and Hteel Co. (eontructs Hjind Id). Contraet II, r,,{)nn tons with Naylor, llen/.on A (."o , to be d>llvi'red free «>ii board at Liverpool. Contraet .'fl, Cooper. Kalrinan A Co., for bolls and nuts. i'ontract 8, tender for r,,m^ tons ; fontraet for 20,000 tOHN. f . Cox & Green and other tenderers lower In price. Satisfied that order Increased at larger price only to the (iolivoi-y at Montreal ? — They wcro ditferont ho far as the point of delivery is concerned. 12443. Were the transactions which were offootod for delivery at j)liices other than Montreal elt'ected without any |)ul)lic competition?—. There was no further c;)mi)etition than the receipt of these tenders. 12444. Can you state the different transactions which were offceied on the basis of these tondci-s invited by advertisement? — Yes. 12445. Name thorn, please, giving names of the parties and Uio •jiiantilies, amounts and numi)ers of the contrat-ts? — We entered iiiio contract No. b", with Guest & Co. tor 10,000 tons of rails, with propcd'tionate quantities of fish-phites, bolts and nuts. Wo entered into contract No. 7, with the Ebbw Vale Steel, Iron and Ooiil Co., l((j- the Mipply of 5,000 tons of steel rails with pro|)ortionate p'y of 5,000 tons of rtiils, with proportitmate (|uantiiy of tish-plates, to be delivered free on board at Liverpool ; contract ;jl, with Cooper, Fairman iV (.'o. for bolts and nuts. 12447. Do you mean that these two hist-tiaraed contracts, 30 and 31, were based upon the prices mentioned in the tendert to which you have h1 ready alluded ? — Yes. 12448. As to contract No. 6, were Guest &. Co. tenderers? — Yes. 12449. Have you the tender? — Yes; it is part of Exhibit No. 118. 12450. As to contract No. 7, were the Rbbw Vale Steel, Iron and Coal Co. tenderers? — Yes. 12451. Is the tender part of Exhibit No. 118?— Yes. 12452. As to contract No. 8, was this company the Mersey Steel and Iron Co. a tenderer? — Yes. 12453. What was the quantity tendered for ?— 5,000 to 10,000 tons. 12454. What was the contract for?— The contract is for 20,000. 12455. Do you know how it came about that the contrsict is for a larger quantity than tendered for: don't you think there wore two separate tenders for 10.000 tons each ? — No ; T think that the quantity was inci-eased simply because the conij)any expressed itself willing to undertake the larger quantity. 1245(i. Was the price named by these tenderers the lowest price of any — for instance, was not the tender of Cox & Green, or Guest & Co., a lower price ? — Yes ; tiio price ol Cox & Green was lower. 12457. Do you know whether those persons who had tendered at lower prices were offered the opportunity of incrc::aing their quant i- 835 I < A k< ^ ' TRUOEAU iu- as tlu! I'livory at oliliou? — jiidors. re offer led i. s iimi iho I to rod into liWti, wiili ^0 enloi'L'il m\ Co., U>v iianlity ut Steel ami luintity ot tlirt Wwisl >l>()i'tioiiaU> M) pfovides [Uanlily ot Ibi- in llic K'ted foi- to ts y and 10 or, Benzon ,te quantity contract 31, 30 and 31, you have — Yes. No. 118. )n and Coal Steel and ,000 tons. 0,000. it is for a wore two .' quantity Iwilling to price of lioflt & Co., Indered at tr quanti- Pnrchnae of Ri»ile taken? — I cannot pro- afu-r it waBiwrnr- luco any written correspondence on the subject, i)Ut I ain satisfied that taincJ that the the desire to increase the orders at the lar^^er price were made atler w,\Vim Ill.t'ialiJIioitt we had ascorta'ned that the lower i)idders would nul accept any more, 'oiy moi«. rU58. What is the date of the contract • t the hit'hor i)rico ? — The luii.runuary.iHv.'i, Uih January, 18«5. at hi>.'ii..T prt •«. 12159. Will you look at page 35 of the printed Return to which you On tiio jist llude. Please road the telegraph from Cox i^ and 10) for |,),ijOO tons of steel rai's, delivered at Workington, at £10, and subso- I jiiently it was agreed that these same rails should be delivered at hluiitroal, at til, aceording to the terms of the same tender received from the same parties. 12463. fn addition td the lerulers whiuliaro printed in this I{eturn,at p;i;,'e 5, are there other tenders based on the same advertisement to be lnund printed in another place 1 undorstaml, you wish to add somo- Ijiing to your evidence — please do so? — The tenders not included in lihu list printed in the Return dated April 7. Was your first contract lor the completion of the Pembina hnch ? — Yes. -488. Were you connected with some one else in that matter as a :'ner ' — Yo8. 12169. Who was it ?— Mr. Falardeau. of Montreal. He was to join objS'trhm Mil the contract, but Mr. iViackenzie objected to him. partner, Fain i-. '2470. Upon what ground ? — He did not say. 12471. Was tlie work let by public competition? — Yes. ! '472. Did you tender in your own name ? — 1 did, 53Jf ieau. KAVANAGH 886 T«niIeriiiK— Penib. Branch • . ) Contract No« 33. 124715. Tlion did you take the contract alone after this olijcction r — No; after ho raised the o!)joctions, 1 came up and told Mr. F-'alar- doau that Mr. Mackenzie ol)jectcd to him. 32474. Whut waH the result of that then ? — 1 walked away jVoni him at the time, and had nothing more to do with him. 12475. Did you take tlic contract alone ?— No ; after T camo out 1 met Mr. MMri)liy. 1 told .Mui-phy about it. He said ho did not mind taking the contract. Murphy tock the contract at my figiiros. I?l7tj. Did he take it alono or do you mean that ho joined you ? - No, ho did not join mc ; a party by the name ofUppoi- wont in with him. 12477. Well then yon did not contract at all ?— That is all there was about it. I think it was understood I was to lio with him in the eon tract. 12478. With whom ?— With .Murphy and Upper. Murphy dptor- 12479. Do you mean that you, by your render, became entitled to the fl^ureiL" witness! w>ti'act and that you did not get the contract ; I do not quite under- tand what you moan to say about it ? — The way it came, FaliU'deau w.i- to come with mo in the contract. When Falai-deau famo up Mr. Mar kenzio objected to him ; when ho objected to him 1 met Murphy, and I complained to Murphy that Mr. Mackenzie objocled to Falanimui. >o 1 told Murphy what my tigures were and he said he did not mind taking my contract at my figures. 12480. Bid you go with him to the Dopartraont of Publio Workh?— Yes. 12481. Whom did you see ? — Mr. Trudoau and Mr. Mackenzie — their was not anything more about the matter. Tho work wont along. 12482. Bat did the papers go along — were the papers signed ? — Ye-. 12483. Did you sign them ?— Yes. 12484. Then you became one of the contractors ? — T presume so ; .Mr. Murjihy though attended to it chiefly. 1-485. Were 3'ou a consenting party to Mr. Murphy becoming a Cdn tractor ? — Y'es. Conseuted to Murphy and Up- per becoming parties to con- tra-p* trac . 12486. And Upper with him ?— Yes. 12487. Then you had nothing to complain of about that? — Nothing: at all to complain of. 12488. When you first tendered, this gentleman in Montreal was not a party in the tender ? — No. 12489. Your idea to include him in the transaction was a »ubsoquotit one ? — Y^'os. 12490. And it was that subsequent idea which the Dopartraont objected to ? — Y'es,. 12491. But they consented to you taking other partners instead ol tlic Monti-eal man ? — Yes. 12492. And you agreed to it ?— Yes. 12493. Was there any arrangement, after you became the contractor, by which you went out of the contract and these other men remuiiuid the solo proprietors? — None at all. 837 KAVANAGH Teiiilrriiig— Pfiiilii Urnui'li. av from him ic Worker- own iiaiiio. 12494. Bid you tako any part afloiwaids in llu' ^ottlrnioiit with llic fontrm-iHo. 33. flovcrnmcnt ul)out tlio matter? — Xi>. 12405. Wh^' not? — I was not failed upon. 1241)(). Was tho work taken out of your hands ? — Well, 1 think it was jiarti}' taken out df my liands at the tinjo. 12407. Have you liad any settlement with those men who lu'came No si'tuoiuoni 1 ..1 . .• •> NT with ITpper and your partners almut the transaftion r — No. Nfurpijy. 124!>8. And is the matter still an upen ijaostioii between you and the (lovornmenl, or between you and tiie j»artnorsV — Well, J don't hardly think it is. , 124'.ill. How has it been elosod it'you took no part in the closing? — 1 took ni) part in the < losin«f. I do nut know whethei' they intend to settle with the government, or whether it i> an oj)en (piestion yet between them. 12500. ilav.. you any claim against tho (loverntnent on account of it? — Not a cent. 12501. Then you have virtually abandoneil all interest in the matter? — Virtually abandoned all into'-est. 12502. lias any claim been made against you at any time for not fulfilling tho contract ? — No. 1250;i. When you first Icndtu'ed was there any und( rstanditig that Tcndcmi in liis any person else was to have the benefit of the tender as well as your- self ? — No ; not at the time I tendered. There was some parties at the time I tendered ]»roposod to come iJi, hut [did not mention thoirnames in tho tender. 125()4. Had thoy an interest jointly with you ? — There was no inte- rest between us. 12605. Was there any agreemeut by word of mouth between you and some pci's«m else ? — Yos. 1250C. That they were to have a share in i' ? — Yes. 12507. VVMio were tliey ? — They were Americans. 12508. Did they have any interest in it afterwards ? — None. They Avere to come here, 1 think, with the understanding to sign the contract; and when ihey came they went away in the morning without staying to do anything with it, so 1 attended to it myself. 12509. You mean that they were here to sign the lender, not the oontract ? — Yes. 12510. They were not to sign the contract ?— They were to come here .and sign the tender. 12511. But did not?— But did not. 12512. And on that account you tendered in your awn name ? — The lender was in my own name all the time. When the tender was called for 1 attended to it all in my own name. 12513. Did you over give any personal attention to the work your- self?— No, 12514. Dkl you ever visit tho work ?— No. i KAVANAQH 838 I » Tendering— Contract Ho. 63« ■••'• 12515. I8 there any other mattorconnected with the Canndiiin Piu itli Railway in whieh you have had any interest ? — lu British Columbiu I had. 12516. What interent had you ? — When the tenders were called foi I put in u tender for it. 12517. Do you remember which section that was ? — Section f). 12518. Is that the northerly section ?— I think so. It is the foiiy and a-halfmiles. No; I think it is coming this way. It is section D lit all events. 12519. Was the contract awarded to you ? — Yes. V\» nonx inu-rent- 12520. Was any person interested with you when you made ih, •.I will. him. tender?— My son. 12521. Whore does ho live? — In town hero: Ottawa. 12522. Who took the active part, you or your son, in getting ny tin tender — the prices, &c. ? — It is myself. By Mr. Keefer .— rri.iii jiniptioii 12523. Do you know whether it is the section from F^mory Barti; F'^y." "'*'"""*''* -Boston Bar?— No; from Junction Flat to Savona's Fci-ry. By the Chairvian : — 12524. Was anyone interested besides you and your son ? — No. 12525. Had you been accustomed to any work of this kind ?— Will, I had done some ; not a great deal . For the last twenty or twenty-ti\ o years I have been noticing a good deal of railway work and \)iiy\n.: particular attention to it. 12526. Wore you furnished with blanks by the Department foi tin purpose of tilling u]) prices ? — Yes. 12527. And specifications? — Yes. His Hon delivered 12528. Who delivered the tender to the Department? — I thiiik tender U> Depart- ,.> *^ went son did. iin 12529. You did not yourself? — No; I was sick at the time. 12530. I thought you said that you took the active part in getting ny this tender ? — So I did, but I was confined to my room. I was not able to bo out. 12531. Had your son any experience in this sort of work ? — No. 12532. So that your idea prevailed about prices ? — Yes ; ho mailo the fig ires and I gave him the prices. 12533. Had you any communication, before the tender was put in. with any officers of the Department? — None at all. 12534. Directly nor indirectly ? — Not direct nor indirect, any iiioiLi than to get the fonn of tender and specifications ; that is all. 12535. Did you enter into the contract then ? — I was sick at the time and was not able to attend to it, and I told my son to attend to the affaii'. 12536. And did your son enter into tho contract— do you know?— I could not tell what ho done. I was not able to leave the room at all, 839 KAVANAbH miliuii l*a(iti( h Columbiu ! M'c called for iction [). , \h tho t'oily 8 soctioii D ;it you iniulf ihi ujotting 11 1 1 1 1 1 Emory Bar t *y- on ?— No. •I kind '('—Will, • or twenty -tiw k und i)ayiiii; rtment for lii' ■ I thinU iii\ time. k in geltiiigup I was not able Irk ?— No. ; he made tho )r was put in. •ect, any more all. ick at the time [attend to the l-ou know ?— 1 room at all. T«ii«lrrliiK— CuiilriK-t So. A3» 12537- Do you know whotbor ho became tho contnutor for I ho .section ? "•''* — I could not toll what ho done after that — I could not toll what he done at ail. 1 am on my oatli now and I confino myHelf exactly to what I done myHelf. 12538. Did you Join him in any arrangement aflorwai'dH to diHposo •><" aul**ii!l'i(r?h.'.M)ii. that contracit to any one ?— Not at that li'.iic. I did not m^e my son at tmct, hy wiiom Uo all. I tola him to go up and attorjd to the buHinesH. I did not aeo him ihliV/M^u'onioiik for some dayn afterwards. lui.i boimiit ii..- 12539. Have you been told by him that Home one fjocame ititorosted in the contract? — Yes. 12540. Who waH it ?- Mr. Onderdonk. ]2b4i. I)id you take any part in arriving at the price that Mi-. Ondeidoiik was ttt ^ay foi- it? — No. 1254.', Who settled that?— My son. 1254H. Were you willing he should settle italono? — I loft tho thing entirely in iiis own hands and gave him no inHtruciions. 12544. 01' course it was understood between you and your son thai you woi'c jointly interested ? — Vos. 12545. So be was a partner ? — Yes; a \}iiv\ucv hoiw fide. I left the msitter in bis hands. 1254<). Do you know the amount that Mr. Ondordonk paid ?— No. 12547. I>id not your |»artnor mention it? — I think be did, but 1 quite forget it just now. 12.)4H. Do you mean that you do not remember anything near the Docs noi iini.-iu. amount ? — Well, 1 could not say, 1 could not say just now. o\TaenioVi'k"mid. 1254!'. I am speaking now of what your partner told you was the liaii^aclion. Of course youi' partner was your agent as well as acting on bis own behalf? — Yes. 12550. And what he would tell you might be material. Now I wint you to say what ho told you, whether he was right or not in wh:.t be told you ? — 1 prefer not answering that question because I might make u mistake in tliat. 12551. I cannot relieve you from the responsibility of answoi-ing merely because you prefer not to answer, because if you know 1 wane you to say. If you swoai- that you do not know what your son told you you can do so and take the responsibility of that? — If my momoiy was refreshed by j;utting the question to him 1 might be able to answer ii bettei- than I can now. 12552. Was it not a considerable amount? — Yes. 12553. Does not tho considerable amount make enough imiiression upon your mind to make you remember it? — A person would imagine it could be HO — but really 1 could not say just now— 1 could not. I would be quite willing to have my memory refreshed upon it before saying it. 12554. Is your son living in town ? — Yes. 12655. Will you go and see if he can come up now and give evidence on tho subject at once ? — I will. (Witness then went to find out if his son n KAVANAGH 840 Trntlfi-llIK ' Cwiilmcl !«v .«3« 4t .-,■ Tliri'i of Ills soriM Int'-rcMii'd III coii- tnicl, .liiscpli, Kriiiicls iiiiil Mlfliiu'l. $."i,iKiii (lapdslt put up li.V cjiic (iC his could cornt!. lie retuciiod in ii ft'W miiiutcs, and ho infbi'inod tlic ('(,in. mirtsion tliut his son could not coino that day). rJ55f). How many of your sons wore intorestod wiUi you in tins tondor ? — Throe. 12557. Ciivo thoir names? — Jijsopli, Fraiici.s and Micliaol. 1255S. I)t) you know what anatigmnont was niado for |)iittiii^Mi|) tho deposit with your tondor? — 1 ilo not ; I Iviiow tho deposit with my tt ndor — I think it wa.s my .son Micliaol |iut in tho deposit with my tondor. I'i.')')'.'. Ifow much was it? — Upon my word 1 forget — f think il wi^ J.'). 000, hut I am not (juito sure, Vi:>{U). Had ho the command of $5,000 ?—Vos. 12501. Do you know whether any arrangome^^ was made with any person else to help you or your son with tho contract or willi the tiMidor? — I do not know what he done — 1 loit it altogether with liim HO If, I was quite ill at tho time. 125(52. What amount did youi- son say Mi'. Ondordoidt gave for tji,. tho contract? — I think ho told me at tho lime, but really 1 ioi-got now, J never settled with my son.s Nince. If! had settled with my son* I could toll, of course, but I have not settled with them for two yours. 12503. Have you seen him winco? — Yes. 1250 i. How long ago? — A few moments ago. 12505. Did you put any question to him? — No; there woie ton many by. J only asked him if ho could come up hero and hft said he couldn't just now 12500. Did you put up any deposit vvith tho tender for tho provioii« Bmn'-hStrac't, ^'outract, tho Pombina Branch ?— Yes. whVuKTthiTwnH 125G7. llow much?— I don't know ; as much as was called for :it] or was not tho time, rt'liiriica. 12568. What became of that deposit?—! could not say whotlioi' it j was ever returned or not up to this. T ...I., „„. .„» 12509. Has there been any time, between that period and to-day, wlit'uj irifiit to his son. j'our miud has boon altogether weak and innrm so that you do notj lonioniber things? — No; because I left the matter in my son s hanils.j it was not anything wrong with my mind, but I left it in my son's! hands to attend to it. 1 was thinking, of course, every day that tlioj Pembina Branch would be tixod up, and I don't know but 1 may h)\ called upon yet. 12570. Was your son interested in that too? — No; ho was not. 12571. Well, why did you leave that to him? — Well, because tlic}'] generally attend to the money affairs. ^ . .»T -.n 12572. Do you moan to say that you loally do not know wliethed c.B, thai, deposit has been returned to you or not? -1 really don t know. Does not reraem- given by under- 12573. Nor the amount that was given by Mr. Onderdonk?— No. donk, _ , 12574. Nor the amount which your son said was given by Mij Onderdonk ? — No. P( nib. Brniit-ha I'ut up (loiioslt 841 KAVANAGH nod till' CiMii- I tliiiiU il \v;iv IJ.^Ti"). Is there uii_) oilier nialtei- lOiiriecled witli Uie ( 'aiiadiun I'ucilic Kiiilwuy ill wliiehyoii have been iiilore.slod ? — No. 1257*>. !><> you ktiovv of any poi'soti who can give lis any iiiloniiatinii to ad.->isl ii-' ill oiir fii«iiiiiy aljoiil the inatlcr of the PacHl<' lliiilway? — I could iioL at all. I am very eaivl'iil not to niaUe any liiimiirios uImiuI u bi'ison's husinosH; il is a thing I don't make a practico ot. 1 J.')"?. Voii say that your son is the only one that loiuw^ almut ihii ? My son genoially attends ti» il. 12578. Is your son I'ai'ryiiig on business hero ? -Yes. 1257!). Is he going away with you; you wore s|)eakiiig 'd' going ;i\vay wore you not ? — No. 125HO. Then he can bo got at any time (hat we should want to examine him, say a week hence? — Yos; lu- i> not going away thai I know ol' jusl at iiresent. 12581. D.» you know whcihei your tender tor the lirilish Columbia section was the lowest tender ? — Yos. 125S2. And do you know wholhur Mr. Onderdonk tot k it at the >aiiie figures as yoiirsell ? — Nothing any more than I heard it was so. liiiiiriMl S». tva* U.V. Ottawa, Weilnesday, 22iid October. LSHO. TRUDEAU. ToussAiNT 'riu;uEAu'.s examination continued : 1258;-}. Witness .• — I wish to add to the evidence given by nie yester (lay that the pailicularK of bolls and nuts named in contracts !) and 10 are not given in the tender. The summaiy of the case, is therefore, as lollows : — The tender Kent in by Messrs. Cox k ttreen was for the Mi|i|ily of 5,((()t) ions of rails with projiorlioiiate quaiility lish-plales, the jirice to bo £11 sterling if delivered at Montreal, or UHI if delivered ill Kiigland. No j)rico was given for lioltsand nuts, the (^oniract entered into was for 10,000 tons ; 5,000 to bo delivered at Moiitn:il, at Cll ; .5.000 at Workington, England, at £10. The bolls and nuts delivereil at Montreal, £20 ; the bolts and nuts delivered at Workington, £1!). The contract was so far deviated from that the whole 1(),000 tons were delivered at Montreal, at £11, the contract price, and none at Workington. By Mr. Keefer .— 12581. The bolts and nuts, 1 supjiose the same ? — Yes. By the Chairman : — 12585. Did you intend to say yesterd'iy that before ordering the larger quati Lily of rails from Cooper, Fairman & Co., ai £11. 3s., you had ondoavoiired to get a larger quantity at Iho lower prices from the lower tenderers, and it was because they would not furnish them at the lower price that the order was given to C(joj)er, Fairman & Co ? — 1 have no correspondence on the subject, but 1 have no doubt it was so. 12586. If you have no correspondence on the subject please slate your reason lor thinking it w'as so? — Well, the very fact of our having called upon Cooper, Fairman & Co. is strong evi lenco in my mind. Had it been otherwise it would have left another impression. i*iii'('hiiM<' 4»r HllIlM— CoiilriK'lN ."Voii. niiiiiii II. rarllcularN of iHtIf n iiikI iiiitai DIIIIKmI III «'»■- (i'IK'Ih %»h. U iiiiil III not t(lvir you know what Ing any of these iiu- Department, for iuritaneo, if o furnish larger tne rate, is ihero )n», to that ert'cet )lio(l to formally [ deliver larger e corrosponelcnco was in commu- that they were litional. Is than that ; you the Government, 3s ; I u'ldorstand k_Woll, ray firm [re communicated In on my mind. It about that time In the subject of a jto the Minister; Int. 12601. Was there any one else to whom communications ought to be addressed ? — Communications might have been addressed to Mr Fleming, but they should have all been addressed to Mr. Mackenzie ; all communications should be addressed to the Minister. 12602. Were you not sometimes addressed on the subject ? — I dare- say 1 was. 12603. You were at that time the Deputy Minister?— I was. 12604. I notice in this printed report communications, from Cooper, Fairman & Co. on the subject of rails, addressed to a Mr. Buckingham —who is he? — Mi-. Buckingham was the Private Seoetary of the Minister. 12605. Had he any official standing in the Department which made it proper to address him on the subject? — Letters addressed to Mr. Buckingham were intended for the Minister. 12606. Intended by whom? — By the correspondents. 12607. How do you know what their intentions were ? — Because he was addressed as Private Secretary; I am sure that Mr. Buckingham could not dispose of any Government contracts. 12608. I have not asked you whether he could dispose of any Govern mcut contracts : did you understand that to be my question ? — No. 12609. Then why do you answer what I do not ask, instead of what 1 do : have you any object in answering questions that 1 do not ask ? —No. 12610. Please listen to my questions and answer them. Had ho any orticial standing in the Department which made it proper to address hiin on the subject ? — His official standing was that he was Private Secretary to the Minister. 12611. Well, according to the pi'actice in the Department, with which you have b(;en acquainted for many years, is it usual to address the Private Secretary of the Minister upon official business? — It is not usual, but it is very often done. 12612. Do you know any reason why the usual course was not followed in this case ? — No. The following documents were then filed :— Contract No. 6, of Gue-st A: Co. (ExJiibit No. 1 Ut.) Contract No. 7, witli tiie Ebbw Vale Steel, Iron and Coal Co. (Exhibit No. 120.) Contract No. 8, the Mersey .Steel and Iron Co. (Exhibit No. 121.) Contracts No. 9 and 10, in one document, with the West Cumberland Iron and Steel Co. (Exhibit No. 1122.) Contract No. 11, with Naylor, Benzon & Co. (Exliibit No. 12'^.) 12613. Have you any record showing by whom each of those contracts was finally awarded to the contractors — F moan whether it wa,s done by order of the Minister or by Order-in-Council, or how otherwise? — No; there is no record. 12614. Is it not the usual practice in your Department that a decision by which a contract is awarded is noted somewhere ? — It is not; when a contract is awarded the contractor is usually informed, and tliat forms the record. 12615. By whom is ho usually informed ? — By the Secretary. Purcliaai- of NallN- CoiitractM No»« (< aiul 1 1 • Cooper, Falriuau & Co. wrote to Huckliixlinin on the Hubjcct of rails. Letters addressod. to BupkliiKliaia intended for MlnLster. It is not UMUal to address Privato Secretary of Min- ister on Import- ant business. Knows no reason why tlic usual {•ourse was not followi'd by Coop- er, Kalrinan itCo. Not tiK' practloo < to note the awarding of a contract. Sk'cretHrjiinforniS contractor. ft- •'f> ■•,!'■ -r'TiTTn TRUDEAU 844 >*■. ■'•■^ .i*\ « i ' 1 k' •. ^;. I > » ■ if • i-m: '» ..t,, 4 1 V', , ' 1 ■ ■ Piirchanv of Hall8- ^TJlnX'ii!*""' 12(Jl(;. Can you say how tho Secretary is ilirocted to iiifnim t|„, contractor ? — The practice varies: soraotimos by a momorandiiin on .^ slip of paper, at other times verbally. Contract (i. 12fil7. Do you know of any mcaiis HOW by which it can be aseor- taincd how the Socretaiy, in each of tliese cases, was dir(M-tod to award the contract; for instance, take the tirst contract : do you know bow the Secretary in this case was informed that lie was to notify (iuost & Co. that they wore to get the contract ? — Xo. Coatraots!) audio. 12618. Is your answer the same as to the other contracts ? — I find, on the back of the offer by Cox iS: Green to increase the quantity of sloel rails from 5,000 to 10,000 tons, a memorandum by the Secretary : " Minister directs that offer be accepted." That shows that he got hij directions from the Minister. Cuutiuci s. 12619. As to No. 8 ? — I have no means of knowing howthe Secretary was instructed. -Xor as to any of the oil I Cl- ean not remem- ber wliat led to ;«djoiirnment of time for repel ving: teuders. Braiicli — Contract No. lii. Let by public competition. Contract award- ed to A. B. Foster who abandoned contract with Government's consent. 12620. As to any of the other contracts ?- contracts. 12621. Are you aware whether there was an Order-iu-Council ovei'i passed awarding any of these contracts ? -There was no Oidei-iti.: Council. 12622. Do you know what led to the adjournment of tho time namedj for receiving tenders by advertisement concerning the steel rails?— ij do not remember, I can only speak from my ni-esent memory. 12623 In the Return printed, a telegram on the second page, datedl 14th October, 1874, from W. H. Lockhart (xordon, asking to lioj informed of the total quantity of rails required, I do not think an answer appears in tho return : do you know whether he was infoimc of that quantity? — The forms asked for by Mr. Lockhart were sent t* him ; but I cannot say, at this moment, whether anything was written t him or telegraphed. 12624. What is the next contract in order of time ?— TIic no.\J conti-act is No. 12. 12625. What is tho subject of that contract ? — The construction o| the Georgian Bay Brunch. 12626. Was the work let by public competition ? — Yes. 12627. Were tenders invited ?— Yes. 12628. And received ?— Yes. 12629. Have you the tenders received ? — Yes ; I can produce thorn 12630. There is a Return on the subject, dated February 17th, 1875, an Address of tho House of Commons, have you looked ovej this so as to enable you to state whether you think tho facts stat here are true ? — 1 think they are true. (Exhibit No. 124.) 12631. To whom was this contract finally awarded ? — To the Ilononj able A. B. Foster. 12632. Was it completed ?— No. 12633. Was it abandoned by tho consent of the Government ?—Yei 12634. Was any money paid on account of what was done under llij contract ? — Yes. 845 TRUDEAU I to inform ih,. imoranduiii on ;i it can be ascor- was diriM'k'd to •t : do you know lO was to notify I'acts? — 1 find, Oil jiuintity of steel J tho Seci-etaiy: r8 that ho got liij how the Secretary to any of the oilier] er-iu-Council everj was no Order-ill- , of tho time inunedl :he steol vails?— 1| t memory. second page, duiedj ion, asking to U| do not think aiij r he was informed khai't were sent to hing was written ta| time?-The iioxJ :ho construction \ -Yes. Itraiicli — Coutruct Nil, IS, 12G35. Do you know what wum ? — $-11,000 for survey's. .^ii.inKipaid for survi-ys. 12630. Do you kncnv whether this ahamlojimont was authoi ized hy Abamioiimeni an Order-in-Counci! ? — Yes; it was auMiorizod by an Order-in-Council_ ^^"^^Pj^iymentof eel l)y Ordtir-ln- 12637. And this payment of money? — That was also included in the couneii Order-in-Council. 12638. Have you the original report of the 9th February, 18*70, by the Etigineer-in Cbief on tiie Hnl»joct of the Georgian Bay Branch? — Vcs i I i)rotluce it. 12639. Have you compared it with that which is pri?i';ed in the Return M lui Address of the House of Commons of the 28th February, 1877 ? -Yes. . 12640. Is the printed copy correct' — It is substantially correct. On the third page the word '"estimate" has been been printed in lieu of the word ■' statement." 12641. With that exception is it correct in your opinion ? — Yes. 12642. ThiMi we shall not require the oi-iginal repoi't, and I return it |:oyou: have you the report ol April 27th 1876, by the Engineer-iu- Ichiof?— Y^es. 12643. Have you compared that with the one printed in the Blue l&iok of 1877, which is the Fouilh l{ei)ort of the Standing Committee I oil Public Accounts, at page 40 ? — Yes. 12644. Is the printed copy correct ? — Yes. I 12645. Then w^e shall not require the original. Have you the Order- Anotiier contract in-Council, or a copy of it, annulling the contract with the Honourable •*'''"'" ciinceiied, Ia, B. Foster for the Georgian Bay Branch ? — Y''es. 12646, Have you compared it with the one printed on page 15 of •he Eeturn before mentioned? — Y'^es ; I have compared it, and it is rorroct. 12647. Then we shall not require the original. Has the Georgian [Bay Branch boon proceeded with since that abandonment? — Another ontract has been let and has been cancelled. 3an produce them. iruary 17th, 1875. you looked ovo [nk the facts staw lo. 124.) \ ?— To the Honouj iGovernment 1—\^ Lvas done under thj 12648. In this letter of Mr. Fleming's, dated 28th of April, 1876, he lays that ho " feels assured that in the event of the Georgian Bay iBianch being proceeded with the expenditure incurred would generally Ibe available in the prosecution of the work : " do you know whether |the expenditure incurred in the jiayment of this $41,000 has been avail- in the prosecution of tho work? — I think that is a question Iwhicli should be answered by the engineers. 12649. That depends upon whether you know or not ; I am asking lyou now whether you know ? — I do not. 12650. There is a Return to an Address of the House of Commons of lb 17th of February, 1875, printed : do you know whether there are liiy other tenders concerning the Georgian Bay Branch besides those mat are referred to in this Return, I mean for the first contract ? — There ' no other tenders. 12651. Are these correct as printed in this Return, so far as you BOW ? — They are. Whether the $n,000 has been available in the prosecution of tho work, a question for the engineer. Witness does not know. ft^v i \V '•»(•• ' ♦■r TRUDEAU 846 ■i<^ 'n I I I 1 5« .' ' v*-^ Oeorician Bay Hrtkiii-lt— Contract No. I'Z, Tenders for (it'orjjliiu Bay Branoh. sil Subsidy to Oaiiaaa <'<;ii- trnl t Mou^laH to AliplssinK— Contract No. 10. Subsidy of $12,600 per mile. ' 1 ii . « Abandoned by miilnal consent. t f * « Trail snort ntlou of Ralls- 4'oiitract No. 17. t, '•1' Transportation from Liverpool to British Columbia. Cooper, Fairraan A Co., In letter to Department, 4tli .January, 1S75, offered to secure »relghtat£2per tor. (See 12H<2). , ■ *' ' '' ■ 12f]52. Can you conveniently produce the oi-lginal tenders ? — Ye produce them. (Eight tenders : Exhibit No. I'd5.) 12653. Have you the schedule of these tenders as opened by yoiii-- self and Mr. Bi-aun? — Yes; I produce it. (Exhibit No. IZG.) 12651. What is the nexi contract in order of time upon which yon have not been previously questioned by us ? — Contract 16. 12655. Upon what subject ?— It is a subsidy to the Canada Cent-al JJailway Co., for the extension of the railway from the vicinity of Douglas westwai'd to the eastern end of the Canadian Pucitic Railway, ncitr Lake Ni pissing. 12656. Was that let by public competition ? — No. 12657. Can you say how the transaction was accomplished ? — Tlio Canada Central Railway Co. applied for a subsidy to assist them in the construction of the line, and on this an Order-in-Council was passel granting them a subsidy of $12,000 per mile on certain conditions. 12658. Have you the application of the Canada Central Railway Co. for this subsidy which can be now produced ? — I have not got it here. 12659. Will you please produce it,or a copy of it, at another time ? — Yes. 12660. AYas the contract finally completed? — No. 12661. Was it abandoned by mutual consent oy the Government and the contractors ? — Yes. 12663. Have you the correspondence which led up to its being aban- doned, or any alteration in the contract? — Not at present, but I will produce it aftei-wards. 12663. VYhat is the next contract in theoi'der of time?— Ttisconti'act No. 17. 12664. What is the subject-matter of the contract? — It is the ti-aiis- portation of rails from Liverpool, England, to British Columbia. 12665. With whom was it made? — With Anderson & Co. 12666. Have you the contract itself here ?— Yes. (Exhibit No. 127.) 12667. Do you know how this contract was brought about ? — Yes, 12668. How? — 5,000 tons of rails were purchased in England, and an agreement was entered into with Messrs. Anderson, Anderson & Co. to carry these rails to British Columbia at the rate of £2 per ton. 12669. Had they furnished the rails?— No, 12670. Then you have just described the result of the transaction but not the means by which it was brought about. This appears to be a bargain by which Messrs Andei-son, Anderson & Co. agreed with the Govern m(!nt of Canada to transport the rails which some other party had furnished ? — Cooper, Fairman & Co., in a letter to the Department dated January 4th, 1874, said that if the Deparment would take more rails they could probably secure freight at £2 per ton, although £_' 10s. had been asked. 12671. Is that the letter of which a copy has been printed at page 37 of the Return to an Order of the Commons of the 2nd March, 1870? 84? TRUDEAU I^Ve.»i ; on tho 7th January, 1875, Mr. JJi-aun telegraphs to Mossrw. .^ Yes I ■Cooper, Fairman & Co. of Montreal, ihat : ed by your- 3.) 1 which you lada Cential vicinity of sitic Railway, ilished ?— rho |,''}'|j^'|jy''"' ImO tons steel rails shipped at any time. Delivery will be at Esqiiimalt, Cowichan tonsoi'sU'cl nillH Kg, or Nanaimo, al all of which places there are good facilities." (ieiivHred in 12672. Is it probable that the letter lo which you have just referred at xifor ireiKht. I :w of tho date tho 4th January, 1874, was really of the date 4th January, 187r) ? — Yes; it should be 1875. I2t)73. Well, proceed ? — That is the way it was brought about. 12674. Was that the substance of the arrangement between the luvernmoiit and Anderson k Co., as you understand, accomplished by |is letter and the telegram hero : is that arrangement qualified in any \iy, as far as you know ? — No ; 1 do not think it is qualified. l-26(i5. The telegram which you read commences with "if" some- ping could be done ? — Yes. 12676. That appears to be a conditional offer : do you know whether cooper tciegmph- was ever reduced to a positive offer or positive acce})tance ; so ftir the ofV,'^,VV'rj|tis*£in'^ Ucof Anderson, Anderson & Co. has not boon mentioned ? — On the ]•>«• ;rrei{,'iinu8. r, T 11 n- \r f^ ^ i I J Insinance not iti- |:ih January, lh7o, Mr. Cooper telegraphed : cUuied. Braun 'Accept your nfifer made by telegraph on the 7th : rails, X'lO 10s. ; freight, 40s. ; floslng h.Trtriiin. liiirance not included ; " rovernraenl and its being aban- lent, but I will .ft is contract :t is tho trans- lolumbia. Co. chibtt No. 127.) ibout ?— Yes. in England, 5n, Anderson le of £2 per ton. Ithe transaction ]s appears to be igreed with tho le other party tho Department )uld take more [ithough £-' 10s. printed at page Id March, 1870? Uon the 21st January, 1875. Mr. Braun writes to Cooper, Fairman [Co. : In reply to your several communications on behalf of Messrs. Naylor, Bcnzon & B I am to state that the Goverament accepts their offer to supply 5,000 tons of lei rails at jEIO 10s. sterling per ton, free on board at Liverpool, and allows £2 per Isfor freight to the Vancouver ports." Il2677. Then is that the bargain with Anderson, Anderson & Co. ? — m. ll2G78. How did you or do you ascertain that that is the bargain with lese contractors ? — I find nothing in the correspondence. 112(179. Is there any other contract that you know of for the trans- litation of rails from England to Vancouver Island, except this one (th Anderson, Anderson it Co. ? — No. 12680. Then i:. there any doubt in your mind that this is the con- Has no doubt this kct alluded to by Messrs. Cooper, Fairman & Co. in this correspon- mentioned^by^ ke which you have mentioned? — No; I have no doubt. 5*l^per. Fainnan • •' ' & Co. J12681. Do you know who certified to the receipt of quantities |iv(red in British Columbia ? — I cannot tell you at this moment, but p find out. 112682. Can you find out also the particulars showing the voucher I reasons for the payment of this transportation contract, and also I amount paid, and to whom, upon this contract, so as to let us know )-raorrow ? — Yes . p83. What is the next contract in order of time? — No 18. It is a contract No. is. Itract with the Red River Transportation Co. for the carriage of Transportation hirom Duluth to Winnipeg, or any point on the Red River between S!)i^tonRe- portaiion Co., had there l)ecn an attempt, by advertisemont, to prociui.' tenderH for the same work ? -Xo. 12688. In the Return of 1 BTfi to an Order of the Commons of thc2nil March, at page 5(>, tlioro ai))»oars to be a copy of a letter from Fuller & Milne, dated lUth April, 1875, which commences as follows; — " Sir,— Noticing your advertiaempu^ for tenders to transport steel rails and fastenings to Fort William and Duluth, &c." Thi.s is addressed to " F. Braun, Secretary :" do you think now that there was no advertisement for tenders for this work ? — Yes. 12689. Then were the writers of this letter in error in supposinf; that there had been, or how otherwise do you account foi* that letter? Does that only refer to transportation to Duluth ? -Contract 18 is for transportation from Duluth to Winnipeg. Tho advorti-ement referred to in the letter Just quoted is for the transportation of rails from Montreal to Port William or Duluth on Lake Superior. 12690. Then do you understand that this offer by Fuller & Milne was for work not alluded to in any advertisemont ? — Yes. 12691. Do you know how it was they were led to make any such ofTor?— No. 12692. Is the ofl'er in substance concerning the same work which vva; embraced by contract 18? — Yes. 12698. Do you know whether there was any discussion in the Depart- ment as to whether this offer was a lower or a better one than Kittson'sr — I think that Fuller & Milne's letter was referred to Mr Fleming to report upon, and that Mr. Fleming on the 5th May reported. 12694. Have you a copy of his report ? — Ye& ; I produce it. (Bxhibi: No. 122.) 12695. Read it aloud ?— Fleming's report. " Sand/ord Flemiuff to F. Braun, Secretary, Public Works —J return the letter of I Mesars. Fuller & Milne, offering to carry rails from Duluth to any point on the Red River between the boundary line and Port Garry at the rate of $13 50 per ton. Consi- dering everything I do not think the price unreasonable, but before entering into « contract with these gentlemen, I think it would be advisable to look into the matter] mentioned in the second last paragraph of their letter." 12696. Do you know whether that^section of their letter was looked I into, and had anything to do with the awarding of the contract to somej one else ? — I do not. 12697. Will you read the second last paragraph of their letter toj which Mr. Fleming refers — or if you have any doubt which is the Does not know how Fuller & Milne were led to make an ofTor, The offer is for the work of con- traet IS. Fleming reported on Fuller & Milne's ofl'er. 849 TRUDEAU October, 188(1. to make any such no work which wa? ,(.ro!vl hist, piira;j;r!i])ii real onoui^li hcPir(> it so as to bo siiro yni Incluilo it ? — " ['rovidod tlio Governnisnt obtain pormission fi-oiii the American 'jovi'mnviit to •rnn~iiiirl \h<' stiiin' tlu-.jiii^li llicir territory willioiil l)o-iilci, or on own personal l)OiiiJ, •iiiynnMits to b(! inii'l" lit tlie rate of " per cent, on dellvt-ry, and that we be iiifjnned of llie acceiitance of this tender on or before the 5th day of May next.'' 'l'rMII*t|M>rt>lliOll or hh*i>4~ 'I'l'lHlcrlilU ■ ( xlltliK-l .\(>. IH. o!)3. •^.;< Do yon know whether Fuller A: Milne were ever notified KuIIita Miini'K ;liuL lliis oiler was accej)tod or refused, or would he considerod ? — I liiid il'.!i'^M.,n',ni'i',o' tliat the ieltci- was acknowledged, l)Ut I find no oth-jr correspondenco. "iii.r acrcpijini-o. 12i)lJl>. In I'ul lor I's: Milne's letter the offer is at the rc'P'jctivo ratcis j.niKi ii^. toion uicMtiorKHl per ton : do yon know how that was understood hy the ',','"''.'!?,' "i"ll ^^'r"'" „ r- I I I' II 1 • I I I • I • ' or inunlier III Department, as far as ihe number ol lbs. to be ineluled m tlio ton is |iourifut Bolt Co. :" arc the tons referred to there of the weight of 2,000 lbs.? And the previous telegram of the same date from Mr. Braun to Mr. Jenkins, England, contains, among other things, these words : "Ship to Vancouver 5,0'^'* tons rails by Naylor, Benzon x Co, :'' are these tons 2,000 lbs. weight? — No; they are articles purchased But in Kngijmri in P^ngland where the ton is 2,240 lbs. The rails were to be pur- vaiiH.'"^ *^" '""'" chased by the long ton. 12703. Specified to whom ?— In the printed specification and form of tender. 12704. Will yoo read the paragraphs from Fuller it Milne's letter Kuncr a Miim^'s which state the different points between which they will carry the ransivomDiMuth mils at the prices specified ?— i^oK^J'K^^^y i**" " From Duluth to any point on the Red River between the boundary line and Fort "Yr**'" ^7' Klvor Garry for $13.60 per ton ; from Duluth to the croasing of the Canadian Pacific Rail- *'' ''^'' ^''"' way over the Red River for the sum of $15 per ton." 12705. From what you have said about the weight of tons, in the absence of any special description, do you understand that Fidler & Milno ottered to take this price for the short ton? — Yes. 12706. As you say that you know of no correspondence with them on the subject, I suppose you are not aware whether they were asked to 54 . .1 •■111 ,'t TRUDEAU 850 TrKiiNportntloii or HnilM- 'I'trlDlirillU— <'oiiti'n<:t No. IM. Does iio( know ■wlK'tluT II wns ever (llHciisseil in DopartiiiPtit ■wliotlier Kiilliii' iV Milne's incniit loiiK or .short toti. Cannot explain why Klltson's Ofl'lM' Ht II lilulx'i- |tri<'<' wiis Miii'pl • e^liort ton or tho giii>. toil?— No. 12707. Wo iinderHlund Mr. Fiilloi- himsolf, in /jfiviii;,' lii.s (3viilonco, 1 1 say Ihiit lio look it iis u iiitilUir ot coui'.sc? that; it would i)0 tlio U)u acc((pted at what ap])ears to he a hiichei" price thiin Fuller iV Milne's' —No. 12701\ (.'an you say whetliei- it was at any time considered tluit tlih oiler of Kittson's was more advantai^eous to the jjuhlic than Fuller \ Milne's?— No. 12710. Have you, since you were here yesterday, looked into tin substance of these oilers hy Kittson ; for instance, one oJ' tho alternativ(> being to deliver the rails !it the crossinif of iled Kiver, provided llii navigation was Kuflicicnt hctW(!on Winnipei.;; and that point ? — Yes: 1 have Just read tho letters sent in by Mr. Kittson. 12711. Do you sec anything in the offer of Mr. Kittson more lavoui- able to tho public than tlie otter of Fuller iV Milne ? — No. 12712. Do you see anything in tho otter of l*'iiller & Milne nieio favoiu'able to the public than that (jf Mr. Kittson? — If all the rail- were to be delivered at Selkirk' the tenders would be equal. If ;i portion is to be delivered above Winnipeg, that is between Pomhiim and Winnipeg, then Fuller & Milne's offer is tho bettor of the two. 127Kj. Do I understand you to say that in oi'der to make the Kittson offer as good as Fuller k Milne's it would be necessary that they shouM undertake to deliver the rails as far north as the railway crossing?— Yes. 12714. Did they so imdertake? — Yes. « «'1»^ CHAPLEAU. Cuiitrnvt No. 42. Infliicnniiij; C;ierkj«— illlei{«;il iiii pro- per iiiHiieiifc. A clorlj ill 1)0- ]iartinenf. of Public Works ever slivc 1ST:!. (.'orre.spoiiil('n(;t' clerk. SAM'".:i,J'i. St. ON(iE Chai'LEAU, sworn and examined : Bij the Chairman : — 1271"). Where do \-ou live ? — 1 live here in Ottawa. 1271H. How long have you lived here? — [ have been here siiici' September, 1873, I believe. 12717. Have you boon engaged in any of tho (Tovernment Depart- ments? — Yes; J have been a cloriv in tho Department of Public Work> ever since that time. 12718. Did you remain in tho Department of Public Works at llic time of the separation of the Eailway Department? — Yes. 1271!). Have you taken part in any transaction connected with tho (!anadian Pacific Eaihvay? — As clerk, yes; 1 have in the shape nt correspondence, and so forth. 12720. What was your dut}- in tho Department? — I was correspon dcnco clerk ; in fact 1 had to attend to almost every part of the I • 851 CHAPLEAU on or I ho j^riN. his oviilcncf, i . I [ 1)0 tlio loilL^ t [Miller \ Milne',-,' nsidorod that tin- ic than Fuller A >-, looked into tin )f'lho allcrnalivi'> •ei', provide I tlit t point ?— Ye.s ; 1 Ltson more lavoui- -No. er k Miliio moix' —If all the r:iil- l he equal. If ;i between Pombiiui or of the two. Mnake the Kittson that they shoiiM way crossing;-?— boon bore si mo rernment Depart- ot'PublieWorl^ )lie Works at tlio les. nnectod with tlu' in the shape I't -I was corros?t)Oii ?Qry pai t of the Department, sueh u.s lookin;^ up reeords of past transactions and milking" retui'iis to the ll(;usf of Commons, and so forth. 12721. Had you tho custody of any |)articulai- kind of document ? — At one time 1 had char^-e of the record room — ol hooks and documents. 12722. "What would there he found in that room? — All the i)uhlic icc'ords that j)asscd tlirou^'h tho !.)e[)artmetil —letters received and lottei's sent. 12723. Was thei-c any one else vvho had cluir^'c of that sauK; r-ooni ? —There was anothei' ottieor who used to lie entrusted with the >-ame (lulies 1 wa.s enti-usted with. 1272-1. Who was that?— Mr. Knnis. 12725. Would his ])osilion be that of a.ssistant to you or ono of (niK iin'ont power? — it was concurrent, I must say; we dischari,'ed iheso duties together. 1272(5. Then neither of you was sultordinate to tho other? — No. 12727. r)id he continue to ])crform those duties until the separation of the Railway Brunch from the Public Works h^'parlment? — Yes; [ think ho has continued in that ])osition up to this day. 1272cS. I mean did he continue in the Public Woiks .ncjjartmetit until the t^eparation of the liailway Hranch ? — Yes. 1272'.t. When was the separation? — 1 do not exactly reinember. It was in September, 187'^ I bclievo, or tlu^ beginning of October. 12730. What is tho system in that Department about the receipt of tenders for works — railway works for in^tatice? — Advertisements w ei'e jl^cnerally prepared, [ believe, by the Pacific Railway Branch, and the works to be let wore advertised in the press. Tenders were to bo Ireceived by the Secretary of the Department. 12731. W^ ho was be? — Mr. Bfaun. Alter the tenders wei-c received 1 could not say who opened them. Sometimes 1 thmlc it was a daly Idisuharged b}' Mr. Braun and Mr. Trudeau, the Deputy Minister, and lother times, I think, between tho De])uty and one of the engineers iiiKlor Mr. Fleming. 12732. Before wo get to the opening of the tenders I wish to know, [iificr tho receipt of them by tlio Secretary, what became of them ? — "le had the custody of them. 12733. He alono?— r thirdv ?o. 12734. Do you know howMhey wore dispo.scd of? — I have not any Idea. We, as clerks, did not see anything of them until they came to Us after the works had been awarded and the contracts let. They wore Ihen passed into the record room to be endorsed and to be tiled. 12735. Do you not know what the system was : whether he put them liito any safe or any place of cu.stody beyond ordinary tiling of them ? ' could not say what ho did with them. 1273G. You have nodrr liilliictit-r. Iliiil I'liiii'^i' III imltlic ri-voriU. wli li liitii. I'ril(!l Ice III De- piirt iiii-iit iiH to ii'(!(l])t and open' iii(f of ti'ii>l<'r>. Soort'l.'ii-\- iHrauii) liiid <-u.stii)'lii|r «'I<'||4« An«'K« |fcr lMlliit!ii«'<'. N<'ViT hml cMM- Ux\y i>( ti'inlii's fOfllllr'll i| wilh »'iM;lllr Uiillwiiy. ,VI(;fjiili;ilil'M pro- frilw ol iiKnicy pr'ivldi'il Mil ncss IIHCfl Ills ItlllllUIIC'l' with Hiiillli. Htdt^nii'ni r<- KftrdlriK tlilN Iriinsiictlon. 127.'>H. \Vli(!ri (lid your duly on tliut uccoiiiil cominonco / ^tct•^, (idiTcd <"i)n- tnif't. All undcrKl-un throw lip tilN Rltiiatlon Hfirl Kolnloiictlvc crt-opiTutloti with them. Two (layH after I Ills undcrstand- liiK •/■•)■ McDonald aHked hi III to dlH- niiado Hiiilth (Andrews, .lonos * ('<}.) from taking contract snylnK It woald tm worth ^ri,(KH» to Wlt?l(!H8. OtfHMM made like •♦itrord. 'l'21'M. Ami IViuii lliiit. liific forwiiid Uio tondcrH conncL-lcij willi ti I'licKic Kaihvuy wtoi|y dm loiidcr.s coiiiiijcttid wilh llic Pc.-ilic iJaiiwiiy? — No. 12741. Mr. .M(I)oiiiild, ul Winnipeg, dcscriijuu a tiaiisaelion I wliicli iio |)roini^<'d you a Miiin of rnoruiy for using your iiilluoiu^o will I .Mr. Sniitli : will you explain tlio natiir(! of that, business? — I Imv. prepared a lilllo hiitoiy o| this trtiriMiiction, if you permit ine to lonn t it may expuilito i/iatlerH. 127'I2. Voii may lUMid it. — T(»wardH tho lattor partof Fobruury, 1871' an old l'ri(!nd | k Co., who WiM'o tlnj ne,xt tender, would bo ort'orod tho work, wliiill turned out to be true. In the meanwh e I had met Smith Bcvonil limes iit my hotel, and in the course oT conversation refei jnee \ra made to the e-xj)erien<;e I had acfjuirod in the army in organizing anl operating large trariKport trainn, also in housing, victualling, &c., Jaii; bodies oi' men, sueh as would bo required on the works in quostionj which led to an underMlanding between us that, in tho event of I accepting the contract, I wum to roHign my position under Governniei,! and take an active fiurt wilh him in it. As near a.s 1 can romombei- was two dayH befbro the <;<»ritracl waH ollerod to Smith k Co. by thJ (jovernment — .1. . I. McDonald, whom I had met almost daily at iiJ hotel for months before, asketl me if I. would not use my influeucowitM Smith and dissuade him from taking the contract on the grounds thai his prices were Ujo low, jwldwig that if I succeeded it would be woitl $5,()fl(f to me; to whirdi I answerod that Smith was too good a jud/,'e work to bo intli:on(te. I'locccil wilh the ovidfiicc. — On tlici -illli d.iy dl' Fibniary. Andrews, .loDON k Co. wero infbniied that tlu-ir ici.dci' was uc('0|it(.'d I'or ^c'c•ll()n 1), iind aslatod linii) was n-ivcii lliciu tiiliiiiild arrivo at in llitMiialltM' of ',!i.> ajiiiIiiMlioii wliich ln' ha I iiiudo lo.' an (-'Xtoiision of'tim»5 to jxit uj) tliat ;') per coiit. M'carity, 1271''. ^^'as il ai'ran;^fod how you vvoro lo he iiii'irnic 1 of the drri.iion nil thai -iil>|i'cl ?-- JNo ; as I was in iho J)i')iarlraL'iil lit- a-diud nif il I udidd a.Mcriain wh^'thor thotimo was extoiidud ornoi,uii(l lo tcdc^^nidi him accord iti;j;ly. 12717. Mow did ho siipposo that yoii were to a.-^ci'i lain ? — By cn- (|uirin,:i,. 127-lS. I-'i'oni whojn ? — From the Seorotary ot'tli" .l)»!iiartmont. 127HI. Proi'ocd. — Two days after I leicirraii'u'd him that his a])|)Ii- ciition had Ineii rof'i!s('i|. llo left on tho2(;ih,at ni;_,ht, and it .asoi. the 28tii 1 toli\i^i'a|)hod to him. ]27r)0. Was the form' ' ''itor from tho Secretary to Andrews, Jon.^ k Co. delivered lo your euro? — No. 1-751. To what place was it directed ? — It was addro.s.sod to j!\ndi'ews) .[ones ifc Co. at tho Union House. 127'»2. in Ottawa ? — Yes; and some friends had irirttructionH, T boiievc, to rocolvo tho letter and to take cogni/.anco of tho contents. On the 28th of I'ohi'uary I received a despatch from him slating that liis friends were op])osed lo hlni taking the contract, and thai he had decidi'd iic('oniint,^ly. That was after I liad .vont that telegram to him tliat his applicalion was not gi-anted, 127r).l. Have yon gol that telegram '.'' — Xo ; 1 did not keep it. Laier on that, day on ni}' en(]Miring if he had not host reeon.-^ider lii.s de'.;i- mn 12754. Was that enquiry made l)y telegraph? — Yes. I informed liitn that $ .0.(100 had been deposited with tho tender, and if he had not better lei-onsider hi.s decision. He telegraphed buck that ho had fully Uccidod lo wiihdi'aw. Happening to moot Mt-Doiuild that aiternoon, oi- the afie! noon of tho next day, 127r)r>. T'o you I'cmomher what day of tho week it was you met Mi-. i\IeI)(UK:'.(l ?— Xo; 1 could not say exactly. 127."'''. Do you renicmhor whether it was Sunday ? — No, it was not vSuuday ; it was either Fridtiy or Saturday. 12757. Pioceed. — I showed him the telegram.s I li;id receivrd from tSinith. 1 also Hhowed theni to xMr. Fraser, whom he had iiitr >dnced tu me the day before, T think, and g.ave one of thc-e telegrams to Mr. I'Vaser. He asked mo for it. It was no use to mo and I ^ave it to him. In the nieanlimo a report was circulating in the pre>.:8 that .S5fl,000 had been deposited with the (lovernmont on account of tho per cent, sccui-ity in connection with Andrews, ^Jbnes & Co.'s tender, with, tho further Information that $50,000 wore forthcoming. That was in the press at tho time. Con I I'M ft !Vo. 44, 1 iilli.<'ii«.|iiK « I. rkx - Allvu'i'd liiittni- |icr iiilliK'iK*-* 'Jiiili l''i.|(rLiiir,v, i\ll(il(.WV, .loiics ifc t'o. Inrnniii'cl iliiit th.'lr i..ii n<< into coiitracl. Showed M..; Ooiiitiil uikI Kraser the tt'li^- fli'siiii lie liiid ri'- I'l. ,Vfd I'loiii Siiill h s.-ij iiii; hel liad dcti'i'inliic'd _ to withUruw. CHAPLEAU 864 ' ', ■ » ' u 'v: .; s > I I' > - ■1 ■» f ; Coutract. !S°o. 4S. Iiiail«n<-iiiH All('f(«'tl linprn- |>e> iiiiliiciK'.*;. AIcDonnUlfearlni; AudrewH, Joiios A Co. miKlil transfer iholr tender, asked witness whether he would Dot. tele- graph Hniith or KO toNe-v York nnd 8ec liiin. lii)ose(l the Odvcrnrin'iit was antattonlslle to him. MeDonald told witness he would see that he got $4,000 whieh wit- ness regarded as the outcome ot exuberant ieellug. 127r)8. Do you nv^an any piirlioiilur i)apor, or Iho jh-ohs f^ciMM-Jilly ; — Oil, the Free Press of this city. On tlie c^veiiin*:; ol tlio .Otfi ijf .\l:ir(|,_ after Frasor, (iiant iV' Co, had hoon tiotitied tliat ihcir U;\ii[i:y w;is accoptcd, McDonald, who was fi-i<^htened lest Aiidroww, Joiio-. iS: (J.,, might tiansfcr iheir tciidoi' to ^somo other parties (ho haviii;^' u-,(;(!r. tained that 8100,000 had been deposited on account of Andl•ew^, .Iniies i.^ Co.'s tender — ho told mo so), asked mo if I would not tcile^riapn or go and see Mr. Smith about it. As I had determined to go lo Wushitij^'- ton about that time, on business connected with a pateril I ha(l applieil for in January j)revions, and to which objections had been raiwui, I toM M>!Donald 1 would leave the next morning; that I would stop ju New York on my way to Washington, and would see Smith about it, whicli 1 did. Upon enquiring fi-om Smith, whom I met in conipaiiy with .Jones in Nevv York, on tlie Tth day of March, whether tlioy intended to transfer their tender, L was informed thiil t!ir;y had no ai)plicanon from any one. I have subsequently been told by .Mr. Smith that no ap[)lication was over made bj'- any one for llio transfer of thoir tender. 12750. Upon this occasion, when you told Mr. McDonald that you would go the next morning to New York, was there any airangerncnt between you and him as to compensation for your elloits? — lie may have mentioned something to me of thai nature, but I did iK^t pay any attention toil. lie had repeated that so very ol'Len to me. r27t>0. Do you retnombor whore this conversation look place when yon decided to go to New York next niorniiig? — 1 coiiM iii)tf-ay wluirc, I ti-ed to meet him .so frequently. 1 met hiin at the hotel and at his house. 12701. Ml'. McDonald's re^^ollection is that it was at his house or wlieicver In; was staying, and Mr. Fraser and you came togctlif-r ?— It mny have been at his house. J used to go tliore vovy Irepieiilly. 12762. Do you remember the circumstance, whether or int .Mr. Fraser ac(;oinpatiied yon. and in the |)resenco of the three ol'yoii it wan arranged that you should go to New York? — L could iK^t say as lo v/bether he was j)rc.sent or not — he may have been. 1270;^. Proceed. — On enquiry as to the reason why tiicy had declincil laking the contract, I was inf()rmed by the huad of iIk! tirru (.Mr. Dilloiij th it the chi(d' reasons were the wildness of llns (•oniii.ry, of which tlirv had not sulliiiient knowledge, and the cos'. ly tialnrc! of the works which the prices in thoir tender did not warrant llic/fi to iindoi- take, and the shortness of time given them to put up the money. 127G4. Do you mean that ho intimated that if the time had been longer to |(ut nptlie money he would liavo taken the coiitiact ? — It wils not entirely that, because they had time enough to jmt up llie money if thoy wanted to; but what 1 understood him to say was this: that havinj^ asked a short extension and having been refused that extension, ho supposed tlie Government were antagonistic to him taking the contrnct. That is the view ho look of it. 12765. Proceed. — I have never entered into any agreement with McDonald for any compensation for dissuading Col. Smith lo withdraw from the teitpir of Andrews, Jones & Co. When 1 roiurned from Washington, however, he told me he would see that his firm should j)ay iQd $4,000, which I regarded as an expression af the exuberant fuelingn 855 CHAPLEAU 'J .Otfi of Miirdi, C.'iV t(!it(;(;r- Arllll■(JW^, .Iniics ii)t, 1(!l()i me. oolc |)lac(! when Id ti<)t ^-:ly wlHifo, hoLol and at his at liirt Jioiisc or K! ti);!;cth^. But 3'ou say he never informed you of the particulai's of this laim ? — No ; he did not at the time. 12779. How can you calculate and state so precisely the exact IwiiiiK e duo you, when there had been no (conversation or understand- pgu.-i to the price ?~ Bccau.'je 1 have since sold othei- parties the right loii^e that invention, which would have brought me that much money 1 had got from him the same pritte that 1 have; sold it for since. 12780. In what you have ,-}old t^t others, lias the time during which k- patent has been used, or the extent of tlie works over which it has on used, been the foundation of tjio cl.'iim ? — Tt was easily calculated wiuise it was by the mile. Ho had so many miles to work upon and It'jiild calculate on that. 1-781. What was the nature of the patent? — It is a nut-lock. 12782. Over what work is he using it?— On the Intercolonial road. 12783. But up to the time of this receipt of the 6500, no amount had [eon mentioned as the value of it, and no coiment or understanding on fie subject? — No; you mean previous to the time I had ihat cheque ? Coiitvucf \i». Vil. Iniliii-iici.tw AH<'yp4'(k 4iii|tro~ |i tor S'lOOUIlllKiWitllDllt <'\pl:uiiitiiiii. Wlieii lit! recolvrd clie(iut!M<'D!isls of ciilouhi- lion oicliiliii lor iiscof imti'Ut. Calculation by the mile. » ip \%. I .1.11 CHAPLEAU 856 V V ■ ' , » > J. * I ' 1. I % > ■, Oovcriniu'iil Kavc Mouoiialil .t Co. tlio contract oil the (irsl pat- ent of witness. 'I'lii' coiiti'iietors applicil to use nn Impioveirient on thl8. Contract Ko. 42. Iiillii«iiel.ei] with him 1 ecuiso the GovernmenL had not ado[)ted that paiticiila: ])atent. The Government had given him the contract on tho lii-s' patent granted to me. I had in tho meanwhile made application — ihat I is they had made application — tou.sc tho other patent, the improvemeiitl on the tii'st. 12789. Who had made the application ? — McDonald & \Jo. 12780. To whom had they made the application ? — The Govern mem ;| and it was mv intention lo have told McDonald <.t Co. : " now tli;it tho Government has accepted this, and allowed you to put it on, 1 want] you to pay me so much per mile;" but tho Government refiHoltn allow him lo make tho change. I understand, however, that he wonii to work and ])ut in a mile of that new nut-lock on tho road, and haditj examined by the mechanical engineer, who reported to the Depart iiuntl that the last one was the best, and ho continued to put tha.t (inc over tho whole lino. 12791. Did thoy adopt it over the whole lino as you understood ?- Yes. 12792. Had Ihey adopted it over the whole line before 3'ou retoivo the cheque for $500 ? — Thoy had adopted the first patent for thowlml) line; but, as I said before, when they made application to Governnun to substitute tho latest piKcnt for tho first one, the Government icIiihI to allow the change to bo made, and in the face of that they aji[ilioJ the latest patent to one mile of tho road, and it was undorstoo 1 in ilij contract that after one mile had been finished tho engineer w;i- oxamine that one mile, and if it was considered good they were to loa tinue over the whole line. The engineer made his iiis])ecli Iht' earlier, the rdiefjue or the paten! ?— T (hiiil: I would have to rufer to the diary L i VillUf.'. Notwltlisiiindhig' ttiis i-hiiiiiN ;i;_';iitist Ihic lii'cmiKc 1 lie iinprovuiin lit sn vftl coMtiacturs Invonf ion inlulit Illlt ll;iVt' lll'rll used luliui' he got clioiiuo. Tiuf witiK'ss Icncw foiilijictor iiil;;lit |io;;.sil)Iy use it. F5ncitiisll)l;,- !)(• used lio <'t'ai;ri d liiiii >.')(iOon iid'ount if mi CHAPLEAU 868 1 1 i:'% ..«• 1. > ..»."■ •!;.^\.^'::- Coiitrnct No. 4%. lulliiAncinir ('■Ji'ik8— Jll<-s;«-<1 iiiipro- \>vv liilliieilee. Did not (lissuiidc Snilili fri)iM takiiiK contract ; nov<'r saw toii- ilers lor section or knew their contents till after contract was sljfued, nor wan lU! Secretary to Department at time, but only corresiiiiiidini? clerk. Arrautionient with McDonald on wliicli McDonald sent liim to New ^'ork to influence Smith uKainst aK.s.gnini; the contract. .McDoniild feared the Government niif^hl jio IjjicU on i)nMr decision. And that An- drews, ,Iones it Co. might a.sslt!;n t lieir tender. Tliinks the teii- ioil,()00 liad lieen put up until lie told them,. Whitney rocora- mended his patent. 12815. Proceed with youi' stiitement pleaHe. — In oonclusioii, 1 would t^ay tliat I did not dissuade Smith from taking that contract ; luilhcr, that I never saw the tenders for that section, or know their contents till long after the contract had been awarded and signed; and that 1 was not secretary of the l)epartment at that time, but simply a corres- ponding clerk. 12810. Do we understand this to bo the substance of your arrange- ment with McDonald upon the day before you left for New York — that he was in fear that Andrews, Jones k Co. liad acquired some rights because of their deposit on their tender, and that they might assign those rights and cut out McDonald, and that to prevent that being done 3'our services were engaged to go down to New York and influence Smitli ? — I cannot eay that that was what ho said to me. 12817- Is that the substance of your evidence on (his subject ? — He was afraid that Andrews, Jones & Co. might assign their tender. 12318. lie thought at the time that they had some rights which they might assign ? — They had that right certainly. They might havo assigned their tender to anybody. The Government might refuse to recognize it, but thai is another thing. 12819. IJut the fact of their having made the deposit made it ques- tionable Avbother they would have the contract or not ? — I do not exactly seize your meaning. 12820. If he had been quite sure that Andrews, Jones & Co. had been refused the contract finally, lie would not have been afraid of their assigning their rights; but. from what you say you lead me to undei'- stand there is doubt on that siil-.jcct, and the doubt was because of their having made the deposit ? — The doubt was this, as far as I can under- stand it : that the Government might go back on their decision. 12821. He did not feel perfectly established in h's right to the con- tract at that time ? — Well, 1 could not say ; 1 suppose he was not. 12822. Did he not load you to understand that ? — No, ho did not ; he simply told me he was afraid those per.sons might assign their tender to somebody else, and it might give him trouble — L think that was the expression he used at the time. 12823. Do you know, or did you bear from the persons themsolves — Smith, Andrews, Jones k Co. — how the money was put up which had been put upon their tenders? — No, they never told me. I do not think that they were awai'e that their money was deposited until Itold them that $50,000 had been deposited. 12824. Who was the engineer who recommended your patent on the Intercolonial Baihvay? — I believe there were several engineers who recommended the use of it as being very good. 12825. But I think you mentioned one whoso certificate was to decide tlie question ? — You mean the engineer of the Intercolonial Ilailway ? 1282G. "Whoever it was who had that decision within his juris- diction ? — Mr. Whitney ; he simply made the report. He was instructed to inspect a mile of road on which the nut-lock had been supplied. 12827. Do you mean your improvement had been applied? — It did not say ; I do not think. 12828. And that was Mr. Whitney ?— Mr. Whitney. 1 ' I •. ■ t /y> 859 CHAPLEAU ■jion, I would Lct ; I'uilhcr, eir con ten tH , and thai 1 ply a corrcs- our avrange- 7 York — that some rights night assign at being done ,nd influence mbject ? — Ho .endci. 1 ts which they might have ght refuse to made it ques- do not exactly I Co. had been fruid of their Inie to under- causc ot" their I can under- ision. t to the con- was not. 10 did not ; he leir tender to that was the u themselves — p which had do not ihink 1 1 told them patent on the igincers who [was to decide [al llailway? |n his juris- ^as instructed luppliod. liocl?— It did Coiitrai't No. 42. InlliK'nt-iii^ 12829. Whei'o doi's he live ? — I suppose his headquarters are at .*i '•''*.''": II II II r 1 .1,1 • ,1 1 I All«)i«'«l iiiiprtt- Moncton, although 1 could not say. J know that he is the mociiamcal per iiiiiiuiicc engineer ol the Intercolonial ilailway. 12830. Had you any conver.sation with him on the subject? — J never >:uv him in my life. 128J1. Do you think you will be able to get the date about the time ..{' your jjatent to-day ? — I can get the date of the patent today. 12832. Do 3^ou i-emembor whether you spoke to John J. McJ^onald with a view to influencing him to join Andrews, Jones & Co., if they -,'Ot tl e contract '( — J do noL remember ever speaking to him on that subjecl, although 1 might. 12833. If I am correct in the recollection of his evidence, he says I'lonaid t() ihIUvo that you led him to understand that the\- were likely to get the V"*^''^'"'';''"'**',,, , contract .'' — Ihat 1 did. t?<^t contract. 12834. Yes; and that he had better join them ?— I do not remember iV.*rrec ill the United States?— Yes. 12837. Who is that?— I know a Mr. Mowbray. I2S3S. V.'heie does he live? — He lives at North Adams, I believe. 12831). If.is he had any business ti-ansactions with any contractors oi ■!ic Pariiic iJaiiway as far as ytni Unow? — From hearsay 1 understood (hat he bail. 12840. JI.ul he some an-angenient with you at one time about Iiclp- Mowimiy imu au iiig him in Ids connection with tiles'^ i)eople? — Yes. wi'iu'witnl'isSc) notiiv him wlieri 12SJ1. AVha! ,,..sthe nature of the arranuenient ?— The nature of =^^'"'"!'"'^\";' , , , ■ . . , . , i.'.l\cn in wliK'll iliat aiTi-n^cnierit was tiiut, whenever a contract was given m wmcn iiwrc was.a jjreat iheie ha))pened to be a gi-eat deal of rock work I was to notify him, so ^'^-'^'o' ""''^' work. I that ho could come to meet the i)arties, and try to make arrangements hvilhthoni. 12842. How did he compensate you for that? — I do not exactly I remember. He gave me so much a month for a while, i believe. 12543. Do vou remember how much? — I could not cxactiv sav — For this roivIco |>.iO or $40, may bo. u month. 12544. 67."> has been mentioned ? — I am sure it was not that much. 12845 How did you got the information for him ? — After the con- I'aacts were awarded. 12846. I did not know that they had been awarded : how did you Iknovv ? — As soon as a contract is awarded it is published in the press. * ray, jii.'iiiiiriu'tiiriT ol e.\l>Iosi\(s ni (til! L'nitcil Slates. 1 .^: 1 . ■ '' I ''■>/ ', CHAPLEAU 8G0 ., •.'' , • t. ' ' 1' "His fonncctlnn Willi liio I icpiut- liiciil niifilil li:i\e been tlio rcii'-on Mowliray s(.'lic!(;il wltiH'ss lor Uiis servicL'. InfhK'iii'tiij; ' '"^Z^^*" ^_ 1-^47. I'liiit i-; not aii.-wei'iii;^ my question, Mr. Chaploaii. I an, Miiiui'iiit'iti ^i^kill^• 3'()U lniw yon I'^now Iho ])arlicul!U's of tlie iiitoi'maiion wnicli In, tvlVm't-i-oV'" ('i^^'^ii*-'! to L'cl IVoiii yon, and 1 Mipjiosc ho dosircd toilet tl'.cm as early Kxi>iosiv«s. asp'>:sii)lcy — Th'.' iiilormation I was to give lii in was 1 hi- : that when any woi'k was awaidcd lo aiiyboily 1 was to notify hitn, and give him tlu; names to wluxn the worlc was givo'i. 12(>f^. Dori'l you kn'W wiiy he !-electeil you in jjvcfoi'cneo to sotnc- boiiy else? — I have not tlic >iiulite;->l idea. l^SjIt. I.)()n't ycu lli'iik it was your eonneetion with t!iO J)opai tineiit which liad to let tho coniiaets? — It might have Lo'jn that. 1L!85(). Do 3-0U not inidorstand tlmt that was 8up])08ed to give him ai; advant;i;.;e over pcopic who did not derive their in('urinali"ii ifum tlie J)e]iartment, and th:;l it was i'nr that advantage he was payiiig you 84ft a month ? — I d(j not i^now thai i1 woidd. Other pai'iic> li^iJ the same op|>oi-tunities to lind out that I had. I'iFSl. How much do you thiidc ycm liave receive ! iVom him ullo gothcr lor thos-o i-ei'vicc s ? — Tliat 1 could not exactly t-ay. 12S5i. About ho^v long has it been continued ? —It is only throe or four months prodahly. 1285H. Is thoi'c any otlier perf-on whom you have as^i.^Lcd in busillc^^■ matters by intbrmatiou from any of the Departments? — None that 1 t'oiitiactNo. GO. remember just now. 12854. Do you know Alexander Bowie? — Yes., >'ovor iisslstGd A. 12855. Have you cvei- assisted him?— No. r285(). Do you not thirdc of any one elfo who has been bonefUlod by any information got from you concei'iiing the Pacilic Il.iilway? — information of what nature ? 1285*7. Information which you would dei'ivo from your connection ■with tho Deparlmonis? — 1 do not think that 1 ever gave an}' iiiforin;i- tion to any body tiiat I ben^ llLtod by thai I know of. 1 liuvo gut here an affidavit, if you would like to take cognizance of it, f-oin Mr. Smith. Couif act Xo.4a. lie will probal^ly be here himself, i have a^kod him to come and appear before tho Commission. This is his sworn aflRdavit. 12858. At present, I would say that it would not I)o (piite watisfacfory evitlenco urdess we had the oijportunit}- of cross-exarniniiiir him, because sometimes a ])ci'son will make a statcinent whicii on b(.ing (luestioned alterwaids m.'iy l)0 varied, and \^■i![!out having thai opportunity we cannni >a_y it is j)Ositive evidence. Vv'e siiid! be hapin to heal' him if he .should come here? — I think iie wiil be iiore. t« S' - i> Prlvnlo arm raiiKenitaf witit iiiiiuii'* factnri-r of KxiilotfivcKa Ottaw.\, Friday 2!)th Octob.'i-, ISSO. S. E. St. Onge Ciiaplkau's examination continued : By ihe Chairman ■ — 1285Ih We understand you wn'sh to make some covroffion in rog'ni'il to your testimony yesterday ? — It is in regard to Mr. .Mowbray. Mr Mowbi-ay asked me if I would not let him know when contiacts wore advertised tor in which rock excavation occurred. S61 CHAPLEAU nji!o;ui. [ ain ■M. 'on '.v!ii('Ii Ik tl.cm !is curly li.-, ; tliiit wild; I, nnd give liitii bi'onro t<) sotni,'- :,!io ])opu.t!n(.':ii I Lm i;-ivc hi in l!l; iiuri"u ii'um llie ji!iyii!^-you 840 ;> had the .same 1 Aotn liim iillo is O'lly throe oi' n>Lc'i in busiiio:- ji ?_None that I 12S00. Do} oil s;iy when coiitra(:t..s were tulvertiso:!? — Vori ; wlirn !C'n benoliUcd l>y itic Iltiilway?- oiir connection ive ;iny inlorinii- 1 liuve g;'l hei'C (••oin Mr. Smith. ini to come and av-it. not be (jiiitc ci'o.-'^-oxainiiiitii: nnoiit whicii on !out hnvini:; tluit ■-ii;;li he ha]iin be ue;e. ?,tobc-)-, ISSO. erlion in rog':ii''i Mowbray. Mr 1 contract.^ wore woi iiiiiii'iicingf ( JciKn — I') i villi' nr- I il ■ ■ ' "". /.. , ! . I ' . Initiioiii'iiiir Prlvnti! ar- >'iinK«'iMIONiv<'N. Mowbray's piiy- iiu'nfscontiinlc^d two niojitliH. ('nnnot my vvlml loil Movv'bray to send hlni th;- Kccond rc'iiiil- taiicc. Afowbrjiy's iiid- livt.'ii for piivirit,' hlin. Cuntriut No. t'i, 1 . ■' t McDonald appll od to iiNc his patent in April, 37l». . • 1 * - r , McDonald's cheque recidvod early tii 18H0. i 1 > ••v^!:^ ^ ^ 12S72. Could you stato iliii'in<^ what poriod you roeoivod pay fi-Dtn I'm? — I tliirdv this coiivorHtitioii occuirrod abf)ut a month before tlmt work was advertised. 12S7;^. VViiich work do you alliuk' to ? — I mean sections A anil I!— a month or six weeks, something like that. 12874. Wlicn did his payments bej^in ? — That I could not say. 1287'). Could you say how long they continued ? — Two months, I believe. 12870, Do you mean that you reeioved only two remittances ?— I think so, as near as I can remember. 12ft77. Do you mean that you received about $60 altogether? — Yes; that is about all. 12878, Understanding as you did that his object in getting this infor- mation from you was that he might bo present in Ottawa and see the contractors after the work was awarded, did you not take interest enough in the matter to a;.certain whether he . 12801. Was this with your consent? — I had no objecliuti to it. 12892. Did you express your consent to anybody ? — Do you mean to the conti-nctors themselves ? 12893. Anybody? — I muHt have* exjjressed my willingness to have tliem make their application to the (xovernment — the contractors — but I do not think I spoke to anybody else. 12894. To whom did you cx])ress your willingness? — To .Mi". McDonald himself. 12895. Do ^'ou remember now that you informed Mr. McDoiudd that * you were willing that he should use your improvement iijon that road ? — 1 suppose T may have said so to him, but 1 do not remembei- having mentioned any condition. 12;9G. J am not asking at present about the conditions, I am asking i;\|irfM-..,Miiiii- liist of all wliether you expressed youi- willingness that he might use MH^Hlai'i'sii'miVi it, either with or without conditions? — 1 may have e.\pres>ed my >"''• IiIn imtini. willingness to his using it. 12S97. Do you remember wliether you did ? — It is very likely I did. 12898. Do you remember whether you did ? — Yes, J_lhird< 1 did. 12899. You think you remember now that you did : is it <»rdy fioni the likelihood that you say you di riKit liii|)pened ?— No"; 1 u.scd to meet Mr. McDoiuxld almost daily at that M.jiJ^.n.iNMin.oHt lime. 12902. 1 have the impression that you told us yesterday that tii(M«! was no understanding about the use of this improvement? — Xi>, iheie never was. 12903. But now you think it likely that you told him he might uso il? — Yes; it is probable I did. 12904. And without expressing any conditions ? — ^'es. 12905. Then liow did you come to think you would have a (daim i:'H.sf)ns lor iigainst him for $3,900 for using it ?— Because as it saved him a lai-ge frolJol'.rrSM [(luuntity of money I think I was entitled to remuneration and to i'"- iis( <)rj..it.nt. [leoeiving that much. I may as well state here that it was my intention, t'O soon as the Department would have agreed to use that invention, to liavo said to Mr. McDonald: " You arc going to save so much by this Ion the work that you are going to execute, and I want you to pay me 3 i»\ / ■ 1 •It !! ■ • il , /ill' CHAPLCAU 8Gt I I ■', ■■■''M ,,-'"V*|' ■♦^^;^iv^.'.f; < , ■ -'J''' ■■ ■« liilliiriK iii4{ <'l< I its - All)-u:<'il linpro- l»'i iiifliii lire. Till' liivnil iuii his own. Jl. Has received eoiiipouwatioii lor use ol'patout. so luueli for tho iiso of it." I di'l not s:iy so to Iiitn Ijiil il Is tlio iiitc.'n. lion tiiat I liad at tlus tinio. I20()ij. l)iil you ubaiidoii Uiiil iiiloiitiuii ?— No, 1 did iKjt. 12!)(i7. Had any o])))ortUhiJ,y oociin'od whon you tnii^ht haw sai I ii to liim? — No. 12!)0S. I.s tho invention one ol your own, or ono acquired iVoni sotiio other pei'.son?— It i« my own invention. 12901>. Jlavo you obtained a patent for it? — I have had two ])!iteiits, 12010, Two ])atcnt8 of this improvement which is the suhjec', oi your claim now? — Well, tiio lir.--t ])atent was an iinproveniL'iit tm clieilc plates generally, and tho second i)atent was an improvement on my tirst ono. 12911. I understand your claim against MclV)nald is concci'iiiiiir wiiat you call an improvement on a previous invention ? — ^'es. 12012. When did you got a patent foi' that improvement? — Tlic letter's jiatent is dated, I beliovo, 2nd September, 187'.', altliough I made the discovery in March, 1870. 12013. Had your improvement been used upon any roads exceptiiiL; this ono ovor which McDomild had control before ho used it ? — No, jt had not ; but it has since. 1201i. His was the first use ol it on any road— practical use ? — Vcs. 12015. Have you received compensation from any other road?— Ves. 1291(). At tho same rate at which you proposed to charge him, or more or less? — It was a little less, it was at the rate of $5 per mib royalty. 12917. And what do you propose to charge him ? — 1 propose tu charge him $6 and ?7 per mile, not loss than $6. 12018. Before you obtained tho patent in September, 1870, had ynii procured any document or right which gave you the exclusive use of it?— Before what? 12919. Before the patent, which you say was in Septenilioi'. IST!'?- My first patent was issued to me in the month of Fooruarv, 1 believe, 1879. 12920. But I understand it is only this last improvement which you base your claim against McDonald ? — Yes. 12921. Then anything befoi'e that would not atfect the question. Speaking now only of this improvement which you say McDoiiaM used, and for which you proposed to apply this 8500 towards the piiy, had you secured exclusive rights to that impi'ovoment at any time | before the patent issued in September, 1879 ? — No ; I had not scomeil any exclusive right. Iw-THl-^Mo'V^i*^ 12922. Then how did you propose to charge him for the use of it I ho loll eiitltlea to , , , ^ ,, t T -^ . . „ t • ** n ,» . t uI iiiarseMcDonaij whon you had not the exclusive right f — ^I knew veiy Avell thatl could t?on notthen^" pi'ocuro a patent, because there was nothing like it, 1 was satisfied as I patented. tO that. 12923. And do you think that because you are satisfied of that liej has to pay you ? — I think so; 1 think the patent law, if I am notj lllioli 8G5 CHAPLEAU it Is llio iiiluii- Mjt. ;hl. Iiuv^' >;ii'l it lirod from soino •m\ two pntunis, \ the sulijec'. dl emi-'iit (III v'lici'k ■ovcinciiL uii my :1 is conceniii);' •ovotncnt ? — Tlu' allhou^li I vnudc I'oiiiU excepting .isod it?— No, it ;tiCill u> char<:'J hini- 'H' itt! of $5 i>cr mile y — 1 pi'oposc to •, ISTH, liiul ynu oxcliisive iisi.'1't' tomUcM-. ISTti?- M'uary, i belii'vc. M'ovcment iiimii ct the quostion. u say McDomiM towards the f^y. jent at any time [ hud not seouixHl "or the use of it well that 1 could was satisfied as ;isfied of that he aw, if I am not ini>lalil ihi^ycui' WoiiM not operate upon youc ttiiiid ;it the time that yon rct'iveil the chero|josed to apj)ly theSoOO you received : i^ that what you wished us to understand ? — In the course of the conversation with him I said once or twice : " I think that you ought ti) pay me a very handsome sum for the use of that invention." 12933. Was that before you received the dieque? — Oli, that must have been in Se])tember, oi- August, 1S79. 129.:>4. Did he answer that suggestion ? — No ; not that I remembc]-. 12r),;5. Had Mr McDonald become aware of the nature of j'our inven tiou, as far as the improvement is concerned, before your patent was secured? — I showed him the model in A]>ril, 1879, and it was after ni}- showing him that model that he made application to the Government to substitute that plate for the one which was contracted for. 12936. 'ihen you informed him of the nature of your improvement and consented to his using it : is that correct? — I very likely stiid to him that I had no objection to his using, but T did not say that 1 would not charge him for it. 12937. Was there any business-like discussion between you and him at any time as to compensation to you first, and if so what amount of 55 ^l^!It')nul(l iimmI his iial'tit Irniii • liny, l>r', In AllK.l«(, |S.S(J. 'rililikH hi' luhl Mcl lormld In- woiilil liavi' III pav liliii lor Usi of Invi'iil loll Siiitl to Mclionalii timtr hi' (Mitflit to pay hini a viry lianilHoiiic SIMM lor UNe of 1 11 VI' II- tlon. .1^! ', il Kemem tiers uo business-! ikt> urraugenu'iit. CHAPLEAU stm C*atra4:tNo.4a. liilliien<-liiK Clrrk* - jlll«'K<'rr IlllliKiirt-t IFd" tiikcn piirt In ri'i ix't'ol luMoMNur fxjiNiins l<'i)(l<>r- nif lor work oti < aiirirmation concerning muttt^rs pertain- ing to llif < 'uriadiati I'acillc, Uuilway, which you can Htate by way ul ovidciKHr/ — I ciiiMiot think of ariylhinju;. 12'.t4'J. Am to tliiK iitiprovernent of yourn for which you had applicil for a p.'iicnl, I think you Mlated yosterduy thut you considered it inipoi taut that it ^lioiiM be tested on a road? — No, not so; it was n clauhe ill iIk; contrari ilmt, l,(;f'"rc the contractor should piocood with other woi'k, they ~l)oul I apply t>ic inviuilion to one mile of th' road, which was tht;fi to beexuiniiied by a (lovcrnment engineer and i ortcd upon. l_'!)4.'l l)ii| you not coiiHidoi' it important that your invention should be practically tested by use u|)on some road? — No; J was perfectly satisiied that the irivontion wfis good. I had the certitieuteH of the best en^jiiieers in tlic country, that it was the simplest, cheapest, :iiid njost ell'e<;Uve irivention of the kind. 12J)4I. What (iiigiriecrs do you mean who certified to this? — Mr VVuUer Shatily for one. 12945. \Va-> that coticerniiig (he inipi'ovoment or the original inven- tion? — It wuh concerning llie improvement. 12940. Do you remeiribnn way and otlioi'^-. 1 remomber. aatlors pertain- tato by way ut on had api)licil 1 coiisidorod it )t ho; it was n Id piocood Willi ilo of thi ro^i'l, 001' and r 'ortoil invention sli(»ul5;{. Have you the contract? — Mo; but I shall produce it lat m-. 12!)r»4. lias tho work been completed ? — Ves. 12965. Paid for?- Yes. Hill's tender 1 iulars of contract I No; not at thisl Work rompl<'f » 1 :,♦ • ' • • i: Contract Com pleted. i ■ ^ ■■ ■ Krrctlon of Tr»ii«por(ation of HnilM— rontraciA'o.si. ^^.j|| j^.^^,^ j,^j^ mntfcr wilisfactnrily arrnnged inn fb-.v fl.-.ys " rmd (l,,. Pa*i7man^&r(r' Htitisfuclorily is italicised, evidently pointing to soino nridcrstandiriL,^ and Department, will) yon. It appeiirs to alliide to this tnisincss and alho to home otiici contemplated buFiness? — It alludotl to contract 20. 12074. lias the conti-Jict been fwlfilled — I mean this eontntct witli Kenny ? — I do not thiidc the contfact was t'or a given (|iian'ity of raiU, simply the price per ton, and under it some 11, ()()() tons of rails wore displaced. Work flnishrd. 1 2075. Has :ill the woik required by the Government tf> be doiu undei' it been tinished ? — Yes. 12070. Is there any other question on tliat subject? — I think th.i! Mr. Kenny has presented a cbnim to the Depai-tment, stating that In- had made preparations for the carriage ofalarger ([iiantity ofi-ails thai, ll,Oi;0 tons, but that chiim has not been entertained. Ties- 12077. What s the next contract ?—Tho next contraf^t is 22, but I Co]itrRit!w«>. S!3. jjjj^.j, „,.,j^ ^Q^ (i^Q papers with mo. The contract lollowitig is No 23 with Sifton, Ward it Co. for sleepers. 12078. Ilavej'outho contract ? — Yes; I pi-oduce it. (Kxliibit No.i:{."i.) 12070. Was this work let by public competition ?— Yes. 120^0. The subject of it seems to bo for ties to bo delivered on tlit, railway line? — Yes. 12081. Was the advertisement by the Department, or by sonu' agent? — It was by one of the engineers residing at Thiind(!r Hjiy. 12082. Did he undertake the awarding of the contract as well as tli( •oceiving of the tenders? — He did. 12083. Have 3'ou his report on that subject? — No; but I produce >Ir. Fleming's report attached to the contract, with a list of the tenders and other particulars. 12084. Has the contract been completed ? — Ye^. 12085. Is there any dispute upon the subject that you arc; aware of .' —No. 120SG. Has it involved any larger amount, so far as you know, than the one named, $14,648 ? — The contract provides for the delivery of 5H,0un tics and the quantity was .')6,330, that is the only ditl'eronce. 12987. What is the next contract ?— Contract No. 24; it is wilh coiitracTNo.a4. Oliver, Davidson it Co. for the erection of a house, and tlie house ha- been completed. 12988. Is there any dispute ujion the subject that you know of? — Ni» $.VO<'"i. details, bocau- so in order to elucidate the matters aj)])crtaining to the I'acilic Hallway wv. have no objection, ■because in our desire to get the fullest information wo prefer that h witness should say too tuucIi rather than too little? — Mr. Chairman, I have gone rather fully into my jtrivate allairs, bec.tuse it is important, in a public and private point of view, to show my i-oasons for anything that 1 did, and I could not give the (svidence simply on one part rela- ting to the railway matteis without relei'iing to the other, ami thei'e- tbi'e I have taken the liberty to enter pretty lully into details. 12003. As 1 said before, we have no objection, and you can give jour evidence reading from a document inslead of trusting to your memory, if you wish to do so ? — Th:vnk you. I may say before I proceed, I have not read the evidence, ivxccMjt scraps of it which appeared in the new.spapers. I was awiiy at ine time tiiat Mi-. Whitehead was examined. I aui simp!;y 'living r,iy statement of the fiuds as I know them to be. J am refer: .ng itere in the operdng to an item i saw in Mr. Wiutehead's evidence, but I will go Ihi'ough the whole matter hesidos. (The witness thtsn j)roceed(!d to read his statement as follows) : — It having appeared in evidiMiee that I received trom Mr. Joseph Whitehead, contractor for section 1') ('anadian Pacitic Railway, certaii\ pecuniary considendions, including sundry notes antl drafts representing 8 .5,000, I hereby make an oath and say: That about foui' yeais ago, in crtnversalion witti Mr. Whiteht^ad, Whltclioiul oirora who was formerly a Member of Parlianient, and known to me in eonse- In'u'l'wouTa'klep (luence of my long residence in Western Ontario, that tcentleman mm ponUmI ro- (xpresserl groat satisiaclion at Mecuring a conliact on the Canadian works, Ac. Pacific Jlailway, and said that if he could he of any assistance to me personally I could conimar. I his services. This led to further details, when he said that he would soon be in u position financially to assist me, if in return \ would agree lo ke((p him thoi'oughly posted as to any now work being projected, an}' depari ir.enlal reports made to Parlia- ment, and otherwise act in his behalf when forms of lender-. BpeciricalionH, , schedules or other similar do<'uments were re([uii'ei by him ; the object being to save time and m<)ne\ , as tho charueter of the work he had undertiiken wotdd necessitate Ids constant and um-emitting attention. A mutual understanding was ai-rived at, and iii; accepted drafts of mine for small amounts, In 1877 Mr. WhiloliOiiti, by writing over his own in i877ii,nM»int(Hi fiignature, appointed me his agent to act under his itibtruetionH h.-acL ff' ' MACKINTOSH 870 ' i i,» 1, >•;•*!, • •• ■if ' I ■ >. 'I .. I ' . • : . ' ■ •■■1 ■■;. •k' ' Coiitracl IVo. 15t Nnd TeiideriiiK freiicr»Uy— IcKCfl Impro- per iaflaviivv* "Whitehead pro- mlBCK help. "Whitehead's expressions per- sonal. Whitelicad olfers to give hlni a poition of profits. Keeelved notes nod drafts amounting to about $1,5,000, 12994. Havo you that writing ? — I think T have somewhere. I have not got it with me, but remember weeing ii last year. 12995. Proceed. — Subsequently ho told me he was paying very heavy intere.st to those who wore backing him financially, and I tlicii advised him to do all in his power to get rid of the burthen of interest crushing every element of business freedom out of him. lie expressed approval of my suggestions, and afterwards asked me how the news- paper was progressing. I told him I had assumed a great many responsibilities ; that my name was on a gi'eat deal of paper; that I had entered into negotiations with a view to paying otf t-ome of the original sharehoklers, and 1 feared Ironi appearances that ultimately the whole debt would be thrown upon me, as no one seemed willing or anxious to assi.sl financially. Mr. Whitehead asked how much it would require to pay off the debt which had accrued, 1 told him 1 believoil $20,000 at that time. He then said: "Well, when I get rid of some debts, I'll be able to help. 1 promise that, and you can rely on it." .Subse- quently I received various letters from Mr. Whitehead, all of a friendly nature, some on business, but usually reitei'uting his formerly expressed desire to aid me in every way possible. Mr. Whitehead did not, of course, so far as 1 could see, cou'^ider the question of assisting me in a political sense, his expressions being altogether personal. In October, 1878, he came to Ottawa, and called at my house hrin ;ing with him a state- ment of his affairs, value of his plant, i-olling stock, i^c, and intimated that he had succeeded in securing the entire control of his contract and getting rid of interest he had been paying. He desired that I should look over the papers and see if it could not be arranged that portions of his plant and rolling stock could be utilized as a means of raising money wherewith to make his bunk credit and financial standing per- manent. He stated that the work was paying a handsome profit, and voluntarily offered, if 1 would actively interest myself with him, that 1 shouUl share a profit. Mr. Whitehead furthei- said that ho had kept steadily in view his former a^^reement. Knowing the contract was one involving a possible expenditui-e of nearly $2,00(),000, and that I coukl render assistance to Mr. Whitehead fully commensurate with any advances ho might deem proper to make, I acciptetl his ott'ei-, and some weeks, perhaps two months after this, ho gave me notes and drafts at various dates amounting to $14,000 or $15,000. The proceeds of some of these, which were subsefjuently (discounted, went to pay oil certain liabilities on my own account and o.\ account of the Citizen, all being endorsed by myself and some by Mr. Carriere, President of the Citizen Co. I had agreed to renew the notes when possible, and did some sometimes by re drawal and sometimes by returning expirctl notes and receiving new ones. In 1878 (December) some of the creditors who held a lien on the CtY/>0 Hn absolute liar- srain In virtue nf which witness to look after Whlto- head's Interests. Never had the least Inlerest iu f'ontraet. C(7«^en's legitimate bu.^inesH paper, hold no security whatevoi', Idetcr- rainod on the acceptance of Mr. Whitehead's co-oporation. Up to that time, and even afterwards, I had made no secret of Mr. Whitehead's assistance, and always ^ave this as a reason, and give it now, for putting turth every etlort to help liim 12926. When you maUo usooftlio word assistance do you mean that those tiotes were given absolutely to you, or that they were to ho repaid : was it a loan? — The fir.>st notes given wore an Jibsolute bargain between IIS. 12997. You moan about SU.OOO or 815,000?— Yes, the tirst notes. Although it was uiidorstood the notes were to be twivaiieed wc; afterwards injide an ariangcmeut by which I was to look after his intei'ost here and work for him and got Ji share of the protits. 1299S. Do 3'ou mean that at the time ho gave tlioMc drafts it was understood between him and yourself tha. he was not to bo repaid them, or to be protected from the pjiyment of them ? — Yes ; that he was to pay them as fast as he could, but ultimately to be paid by me. J -999. Then it was by way of a loan that he gave you this assistance ? —Not at that time. No; it vva^ a matter of agreement as I said befoi-e. J was to share in the profits. l.iOOO. To what extent? — I ilo not remember e.xactly : a percentage i»t some kind ho spoko of; and then he made it a lump sum, some $14,000 or $15,01)0— somewhere there. l;{00l. Before it was reduced to a lump sum, weie you, as you under- stand it. a ))artner ot his in the coni.ract? — No; not in the least. 1 never had the least interest in the contract. 18(102. D.I you think you had no inteiest if 3'ou were to share in llio eoiitriu-i. ? — Xot until then; not until we made the arrangement in \HVc>. From the time ho got the contract in i.87o or 1876, I had no iiitci-est exticjitiiig to act as his agent, and he used to write to me instructions to look after dej)ai'tiueiil;il mtuters, and if any contraclois wcfo endeavoui-ing Ic injure him I was alwaj's to let him know what they were doing. Tho't; was always a good deal of that work goii - on. l;}003. Then those di-afts were a gift, except in so far as they were balanced b}' any work you wore to do for him ? — Any work T was totio tor him then, or in the future. 13004. Proceed. — Early in 1879, Mr, Whitehead called at my hou-e in ist-i, winte- several times after writing to me, aiul lec-eiving some documeiits he 'vVtnV>ss's*'i^^^^^ renuired, such as forms of tender, schedules, \'c., in connection with ti when an ai?ree- , ..' 1- 1 • 1 I 1 I 1 -111 1 inent wassif,MiP(l now lotting regarding which we had had consulorahlo correspondence, sett inj; forth the he desired that 1 should become interested with him, and look idler '')j',Vt'j^^.^'^"'^^'"^'' the matter as he could not bo here all the time, lie then signed an agreement setting forth our mutual interests 13005. Have you that agieement ?— No; the agreement was after- AKieement Ues- wards destroyed, and a new memorandum made out, a short one which nie^noraiiliifm I have. mnde. 13006. Have you it hero? — Yes; I will produce them as I read. 13007. That will do. Proceed. — He then signed an agreement sotting forth our mutual interests in case he was succos>l'ul as the lowe.-'t iss ■1 m -■7'v ■• H MACKINTOSH 872 t; ' ' > . * 1, ■', .Ah... ■, ,-Vf I I • ' '■ > ♦ ;■ n f; I '. t |: Contrnc-t Sn. ISf and 'IViidei-iiig grneially— illlf|j;t'il liititro- Kiiiiy In 187!i, Wliiiilioad aeraln ciillf- iiu witness com liiatninir l.luit lii'isoiis weie in- 4.'itins .MiinitoljH I'owilci' Works to push liin) fui money. Promiseil lo niiike it all riulit with Aranitol)a I'owdiM' Works, Assured reprc- iseiit,atlvesof ; Manitoba I'owder Work.s that •'.V« Whit«liead would soon he in a i osi- tlon to pay them. tondorei', or afti'i'Wiuds tu-riiiio;eil to I'c-mne tlie work on behult' of successful tenderei'8— — 13008, What vvoi'k Jire you alluding to now? — This wa'< aomo wmk next to his section. There was lo be a letting of about 185 miles, oi' something like that. 1 think it was about that A R and U — some(hi-oe sections there. My business aliaii's again were talked over, and Mr, Whitehead said that if he could be of further assistance he would lx> hnpjiy to do anj^thing in his power. A tew weeks aftci" this lie aLCnin called upon me complaining tiiat parties were inciting the propi-ietors of the Manitoba Powder Works to push him for money with a desiijii ot forcing him to make termH. l.'JOCO. Al»out what time would that be? — I should think that would be about A))ril, March oi- A])ril, 1870. 1 think it was Mai'ch ; I could not ho ])ositi\'e as to date. ITis impression was that the conti'actors for an ii. Have you any letters between him and yourself on this subject which you pui'pose to pi'oduce ? — I never took the least care of his Iciters, but tore them up and threw them away. They contained noth- ing i»ut what 1 was to do. There was very seldom anything in his Icttcis. They were not very interesting reading. 13017. They might be intcrcstint? now? — They might possibly; and 1 might possil)ly, if! looked through my old papers, find some, but 1 do not think I have tin}' dealing with this matter. TB^^*^^^!!^^ 873 MACKINTOSH mitoba Powdfr i:;01h. Procectl. — Mr. Wliitoliead still :i|)])t'aro(l contident lliat lie would .sc'ctii'C some ])()rti()ii of the .-octions roc-eiitly let, believing that lie lieM the !<(>}• to the |>osition, so far as having plant and means of aecess. "We talked it over several times, as well as the aiVairs of his cxistinjj (oiitrae;. About thi^ period a Ocmmit'ee had i)et'ii appoiiilisd by I'arlia- niciit to eii(|uirt' into liie en^ineoiing and other details eonnecled with -section 1 , Mr. Whileliead complaining that Mr. lla^'^ij.'ait, the Member for SniiMi Lanark, was partieiilarly prominent in piishin<;- the empiiry. ] .-:iid I would look iiito the matter, but advised him not to woriy liim- (■elfas I thoii^^ht ho had friends enouifh to ^ee th;it be was tairly dealt with. About this time my own business ^ave me a g-reat deal ol anxiety, and J deemed it best to endeavour to make final ariauL^ements fill' assiimiiii;' the entire iinaneial responsibility <>t the (7//C(7i .■ 1 had tem- jKirai'ily ai'rang'etl for the payment of some <»t the heaviest crediloi's and hoped that further time coid I be seeured as well as money raised by fnrnisbini^f collateral seeiirilies oul>ide ihnsc 1 had given. 1 told Jlr. \Vliiiehc:iee Mr. H:ggart. I met Ml-. Haggart casnally at lunch l.'U).;!. Was this betin-e you had received the S12,0()0 notes, op aftei-- wiM'ds that you spok(^ to Mi-. Haggart at lunch ? — 1 coidd not say; my impres.sion is it must have been afterwards; 1 cannot swear to it, but my iniprc-sion is it was afterwards. I do not remember the date, I could rot ])Ositively swear which it was. 12022. J^id you explain to him that you had got these notes? — Mr. Haggart? 1302>!. Yes? — I have iu)t finished the ref'ei-ence to Mi-. Haggart. I net Mr. Haggart casually, at lunch, and he appeared rather amused when I explained that Mr. Whitehead was very much worried about the matter, as it picvented his carrying on business satisf-udorily and damaged his credit. 1 said that Mr. Whitehead had been a friend of mine when I needed one, and anything 1 could do for him would be done. During the conversation — which was a Orief one— Mr. Haggart paid he had nothing in the world against Mr. Whitehead, but was simply discharging iiis duty as a Member of Parliament — or woids to that effect. I afterwaids mentioned these facts to Mr. Whitehead and said Ml'. Haggart is ail right- -the expres,->ion "all right" is one fierpiently used by me when explaining that there is no antagonism — and had no corrupt or improper significaticm whatever. As it lias been insinuated that Mr. Whitehead gave me notes knowing they were to be Cnii»i-n«-t No. I.>t mill Tvii(lerlii)( (C<-iM-i'i\ InK IS incorrect. i i • .1 1 n * , iof-ii 'I" amicable settlement resulted. To show that tietneat with one I am ill tio Way mistaken as to the object of my visit I beg to be per- mitted to incdude the following letter in my statement 130'''4. is that a letter wiitten recentl}' for the purpose of corroboia- ting youi- recollection of the transaction? — Yes; a letter from Mr. Thorn". 1302.'>, I cannot receive that in evidence. It will be necessary that Ml'. Tliom should bo sworn if you wish his recollection to fortify jour story. Proceed. — I have not the remotest recollection of doing business with Mr. Whitehead (n my own account at such an unusual hou., and it would nuL have been neces.saiy for me to do so to seciiro his endorsation or signature, as on no occasion did ho ever even object, aj)parently having every contidenco in me. In consequence of beiny able to extend the time of certain payments on account of the Cifizeii 1 did not utilize all of Mr. .Whitehead's notes in perfecting arrantro- inents, and postponed as well my iniontion of assuming all the respou- Having heard nerlous rumours visited White of his creditors. . ' VM 1. 875 MACKINTOSH 4'oiilrwcl .%(i lA^ iiiitri\t^>i irlvlri^ ones ill lolitTfM' dates. l.'J026. Wlmt was tlit^ amount of all the notes then given by him ? — Totni Muiount or >li')uld think ihey woukl iimount to about ^25,000, oi- something like j|JU'ii''i-iV"'.' Ithal. l;^027. Pi-oceeil.- lie left Ottawa, and shortly after this 1 learned that <>wiii!< to.frtaiu |iiilicij)ated negotia ions with other contrticlors had tallen thi(ponsible for furilier \t ^4 ■ . ■ »i' MACKINTOSH 87ti ' i '■•'■.|i •.('■(, •M 'V^'- . t'oiilriict !Vit. 15t iiiKl 'I't'iitlfiiiiK tf«'iii'riilly— All4'Ufii iiii|ir4t» |l«'l' iltlllK'iM'C. ■VVliitiliciul Iclc- Kra)>lic';i|)rr ill tlii'i'c iimntJis. 'I'lils not Ooni!— "Wliltcli.'iul's notes In iuiionnt ol ,>;l:!,iHi(i ill liiink <'inli)is('(l by wttncsH. ■Tanuiiry, l«S(i, iiiut Kjiln, to Avliotn lit! coni- platniMl of till' maiiiii'i' in which his in'iviilc! ad'airs with Whitehead hail hi'cn itilscoii- «trii(!il. liulil said wit- ness's explana- tions |iiit i)uitt< a (IllHrent coiu- lilexlon on niatleis. Tendered Hntn not<*K in his pos- fiesslmi anil pro- f'ei'red to r(3llre notes iindtjr dis- connt. Drafted for W hi tehoad's sig- nature, a letter exonerating' wit- ness from 3ert!tlii cliarges. liahilitit's. I bocatne iui endoi-.scr for tlio cotnijunv even bffofi; I ha,| any dii'cci iiitoifst in llio business. Just ai'lui I bail inaile Ibu airan'r,'. riHMits iind iissunu'd Ibe Cit'zcnti liabilities, 1 hoard Ibat Mr VV'liit(,'li(.;„| was iiivolvod, and, k'liowinjj^ this would sei-ioiisly atlbet me, 1, a^ a ])i'actical businf'-s man, sent to srciifo such iiilijniialioii as would diKj,.] .ni! concerning the wisest policy to adopt uiider the ciirunislaiices. | knew that 1 was imw heavily involved by my Jiifreement lo |i;iv le;:;itiinale ciedilor.> oi' the ('itizi'a Piiblishiiii; ('o., and that it' | had all Ml'. Whitehead's j^apers thrown iipiMi me suddenly, Ihe ordeal ihrou^li wiiieh 1 must |)ass was ono that could not l)uL allord suLisfactiDii to thiiso who were endeavouring lo break me down. A[r. Whitolioail bad lelegia|)b.ed me to draw, renewingall pa))ei' al three months. Tins 1 did not do. There were notes of his in the batdvs represertinir $!;{, ()()() iiiidor discount iind held as collateral, my name being mi all, and the signature ol" Mr. Carriere, President oi the Citizen Priiilini,' !ind Publishing Co., on some. I knew the entire amount wmiM have to be provided tor l)y me, and inoceeded to arrange the matter. In .lanuai'y, 1880, I met Mr. Bain, ol' VViimipeg, at my olHee. Jle int'ormi;i| me he was triividling through arranging with Mr. Whitelleal^.^ creditors. I told Mr. Bain 1 felt nnich aggrieved at the miumer in which my pi'ivate business with Mr. VVHiitehead had been mis- construed, it being represented he had paid large sums of money foi' (jrovernment influence wbicli I knew to be utterly false. I expresswj regret that Mr. Whitehc^ad harl not candidly maile me conversaiii with tiie true stale of his financiiil atfaii-s, and further i-emarked thai all a man could honestlj^ (.b) to assist another 1 had done for Mr. While- hea(i. Mr. Bain, after hearing my explanations, which were ])iiioly voluntary on my part, remarked that they gave tjuite ti diirereiil coin- ploxion to matters, and he was glad to be placeii in posses.sioii of llii- tacts. 1 further said that 1 had m my ])osse.>sion notes Mr. Whitelu'aii had given me; these J would leturn to him, and as to the notes uiider discount I would, of course, have to retire them myself. Mr liaiii appeared surprised that J should treat the matter tluis philosophically, and we afterwards became quite friendly. Just before Mr. Bain left my office 1 said I could not believe Mr. Whitehead was the author of the stories set afloat in opposition news|)apers. If he was, then I desifcil that h'> should reti'act them ; if he was not — and I afterwards foiiml lie was not — ho could write me a letter denying the allegations niaile. Mr. Bain said he ilid not doubt that Mr. Whitehead would do this; that if the facts were as stated by me Mr. WhiteheSd could not lofuse. He then suggested that 1 should draft something to indicalu what I considered proper, which I did. J now solemnly swear thai neither Mr. Bain or any one on his behalf, or any one on behalf of Mi', Whitehead, ever asked me to return any notes or even insinuated that Mr. Whitehead desired them. Tlie first mention of returning notes nol under discount was made by me. 1 further solemnly swear that the suggestion with reference to Mr. Whitehead writing a letter of cotilia- diclion as to various statements was made by me after 1 had ottered tn re! urn Mr. Whitehead's notes; it was purely an afterthought of mine; for, very reasonably, I felt that if Mr. Whitehead's design was to allow mo to be slandered, when ho could crush out every falsehood told, I was not in honour bound to make any great sacrifice for him, although hi' had rendered me an assistance at a period when I most needed ii. When drafting the letter, I eaid to Mr. Bain : '• There is nothing in this Mr. Whitehead cannot swear to, and I have made it as strong as . ». ', » 877 MACKINTOSH pjssililo so (li;it if lio oKj 'cts I cjin find llui imvisoii." Ahnijt llirc** wot k-* jiftor I ivcoivod the IbllowiiiLj loHor in Mi'. WhiloiiuiKr.s iiaii(i\sTitiiiit No. V.il.) ■ WrN.Mi'BO, 28tli Janimry, 1880. " Dkati SiH, — I liHve Icarncl with re(;rct tliit sevt-nil parties are i ^inj? your riaiiic n conii''eti<)ti wiiii my husiiies-:, luiil iisiriK i' inamitrner not in tie riioHt rciiiid" ie^rree warrantcMi l)y facts. For tiie infortnation of those wlio appear anxious loin ike capital at your ex|)eii.-e, [may state without reservation, that you iiave at ail tiuien ftCted most honorably towards me, ami any accommodation I assisted you wilii was of my iiwn free will and was always promptly met by you. Furthermore, thai wlieu voii lieanl of my diiriculiies you at once acted must «eiierousIv, and in a m.uini'r tli it iloes you infi'iii'" credit. [ can now state, that irrespective of any rumours, that the stories of my jiayinj^ you large sums ot money are false from beginning to end, and iiiglily discreditable to those who are prom iliug them. '' Yours truly, " JOSRPH WlirTKirKAU." TJO'J"^, Is tliis in siihstiincc tlio lottor wiruli you li:id dictiitcilV .\lv iiii])i'os>ioM is — I do not i'(uncinl)i'r oxaclly, Itiit my itn|»ri's>ion i.s i( i.>< almost word f'oi word wluit 1 dratUul. I could not say positively, liJ029, Did you maUo tlio signing of this lotter by Mr. Whitehead a condition with Mi. liain before I'elii'ing the notes? — Vou mean did I purchase the loiter by retiring the rotes? I made nit my mind toretiiiii the notes. In fact I hat not intended to use them in consequein'^ of his failure to make the negotiations which lie entered upon when gixing thciii to me. lie and I had always been very friendly and are to this (lay, though I have had no communictition witl> iiim since the (.'oinmis- ~i(.ii was appointed. When I suggo>tcd giving bade the notes, Mr. Bain iiiid neve !• referred to anything at all, except saying that Mr. Wliiic- hoad was iti diflicultics, and ho wanted to see what arrangements he I'ould make with his creditors. I never made any arrangement with liiia at all to write* thisletter. •-■aid: " It is pretty hard for me to do all this thing with Mr. Whitehead when I coidd really have pushed him or sold the notes, when he has allowed mo to be slandered through the pi'(;ss." I afterwards found tliat ho was not the author of these stories. I advised Mr. Haiti to write to his partner, Mr. Blanchard, to see Mr. Whitehead about it, and there was no refusal. I never said to Mi'. Bain : ■' I will give you those notes if yon will give me a letter," oi- " 1 will not give you those notes without a letter." There was no audi under- stiiiiding one wjiy or another. I30i50. W^hatever the reason may have been which was (tporating in your mind, did you lead xMr. Bain to understand that before giving up the notes you would retpiire a letter of this kind to be signed b^- Mr. Whitehead? — T could not say I did that, and I could not say I did not, because the feeling in my mind then was: if ho refused to do it 1 could .show exactly the roasoii 1 had for having those notes, such as the pro- Jiution of tliis bond betwceti us, if he was the author of the stories in ihe newspapers; but I intended to return the notes. 130.il. I want to know what you said to lead Mr. Kaiii to understand it? — I do not know why he understood it that way. 1 could not remember the language I used. 1 never said to Mr. Bain : "T will give you those notes if you will give me a letter." 1 said : "Treat the I matter as you please, because," 1 said, " Mr. Whitehead has been a h'iend of mine. 1 made up my mind, and I have to face the difficulty now, and whether it is a $l,00l> or $5,000 I will face it." He said : You do not appear to mind it much." I never asked him to give mo < oiifi;u( \i,. I;-;, lliKlTcinh'iliiK K<-"' inll.v — Allt'Kid iiiiiii'o- |)>'l' lllillK'iK'v. Wliil<•l|l^■lclwrUe.•4 li> vinrkintoMJi. Thill lu'hiKl aclcd lloriOllriilily ; thai nil hearing; of Ills ( Whlte- biiiil SMlllIleiiJlics lie bad ucleil most Kiii'r(.iisl.\', anil lliiil hi' liiiil not palil hiiii lar^tj siiiim i,( IMOIll'.V. riic aliiivi' III NllOshlllcC I h,. li'ltiT ilniflcd liy wliiiissiniil nl veil to liain. Mill iiol li,iiL.'alii to liaVe the above li'ller wrltt-M. I'lilliid thai Wbllelieail waH not the author of till! statcuiieiit.s inailo rellectlii'-; oil hirii. (-'oilld not say wbi'ttieror not lie led liiilii lo iiiuler- Hlaiid that ere lie would Klve notes up be would ri"- i|iilre siK.'b a hitter. ('an not (tx|)laln why l{aln uiuler- Htood that the Klvlnjjupof iiofe.s was coiiUltlonal. if*\- '^^■ : I i' . 1:! :"'i.i MACKINTOSH 878 •I u' t - 1 ■• ♦ ;■ Vi -Cotitract ^o. 15) mikI TeilddiiitK Ifi'tmraHy— AllfUvU iiaprn- P«'l' illflllt'llCI-. ■When Biiln was leiivliiK Maid : •* Hefore I give up the not eft I want a letter." 1)1(1 not send the notes until a('t(M- }ic liad ^ot the iPttcr. Wanted letter thoiiirh without the Idea of puli- lishlng It. The idea that he had received large sums was liurting him. II loftcr for the notes, boc-iiUHo I voluiittirily t>tVoi'e(l Ihe notoH liel.iic ;i letter Wiirt spolvon of. When ho was loiwing I said ; " Bof'oro I giveui, the notes T want a lettei-." 13032. Then you did nu^gest a loiter? — Yes; as soon as Mr. Whiti;- iioad i'uilod in his negotiations I put the notes away. 13033. You had them in your control at the time? — Yes. 13034. Why up, t show that he had not slatulered me or idlowed me to bo shmiiero through the papers; but it was not to cletir mo, because the fact existoiBfi'ived that I h;id paid some of the notes and retui-ncvl the others, and showeiBi'l not there was no object in having a letter when I could |»rove by the fai themselves \ had done what was stated in thiil letter. ivoar J) iMti adv 11(1 hav biher c 13038. 1 suppose you thought Ihe letter would be a more convetiiei way of proving it? — 1 will tell you, Mr. Chairman, the way it wii^.,, P.oplo would come to my olHce and say: " What is that in the j)a|)eiB*^'-^ ^^ about Mr. Whitehead paying you large sums of money?" 1 used !■ " *'^^^'^' 'per; ioteste( 3041. did in J say: " lie lias assisted mo, but the shoo will bo on the other foot." 1 j,' this letter without intending to use it in any way. In fact, I had ii)| gotten all about it until m^' name was mentioned in the invostigatio 1 merely wanted it without any idea of publishing it. I hud it eig or nine months without publishing it. I never thought of using it all unless people came in and asked for informtitioii, and I would sin it to them, and 1 had to do it sevortd times to my creditors. Tjp^'d in impression was abroad that \ made large sums of monej' out of t contract, and that fact itself wtis hurting mo. 130 »'.>. With your creditors? — Yes; because, of course, people woi say when I had to ask an extension from the bank that I could ))a}-l 13044. 1 would, and it was hurting mo in that way. People thought I iilhave no made any amount of money. pd the e 13043. il on M 879 MACKINTOSH 4'ou'r)ii ( \)». 15* Hiiil I'<'I|iIm-|iik l.'iOiO. Ti-ix^wd. — [ii rci|iiiriii^' this lottor I U^lt, in fact kiu-w, I could ;»ni!K«'i"Vni|.r.s »»( its toiiiH, hcrico there was no jmrticii- i" '• •"•Iimim<-. far advantage to ho deprived from |>o>si'WHing such a document except personal satisfaction, as I made no uso of it puhlicly until n»y name was mentioned in connection willi the present invesiiji^ation. in further Hiipport of the correetnesH of my statement I deem propei- to cull atten- tion to the fact that I have had to pay the outslandin immediately piih- jisliod as heinj^ connected with it ; if I performed oidinaiy work in my ]iid)lishiiij;' offire lor the (joverninent it was immediately lieralth^d as a job; in short, from the time the Governmont changed, I fiavo been shadowed by ^]»il^s and eavesdroppers, the worst constructions being iijiiced upon my actions by tho>e anxious to destroy public, contidence ^warx iluit »ii' ill me. J, tliereloie, make oath and say, that I never accepted money inoin.N <>r unv [>v any con^idclation from any man or mi'ii for advocating oi- ojtposinL'' ivllrn'/ulvn'mii or a meaMire belijie Parliament, or expiessiog (jpinions thereon in the "' lui'ii.ivociii- columns ol any newspaper 1 contiolled. 1 never accejjted money or ii„.,i.,i,iu imIoii^ '^" ,'.!',' iw.tnio iHaiiV other valuable consideration fi>r assisting in proiiiotitiir any anpli- I'iiriinni.'ni .irfm- \\ left 1 siiid'B''^'"^"^ ^" ""■' l-'ommioii (lovcrnmeni or any other doveinnient for a npiiiiciiiiciti to in"- forth tliotktlpi'i'ty favour or favouis, or for attending to departmental matters fi.r «MoVait'.3iK'' ■)toH bell 111' u [bro I giveu|i H Mr. Whit... es. I? — llo novoi' to Florie at a distance wdio desired information of a routine chaiacter. 1 n>iiay, that on no occa>ion did I ever pi'ojiose to a p'.',si!us at a "'^ Minister oi the Crown anything that was not of a legitimate nature, '•ix<"'»<'e- ami that no Minister u\' the (./rown or Member of Parliament has ever N<> MinlHieior . ... ... . , .,, . „ , . .Ml luljov (if P;ir- ud direct or indirect interesl wilh me in any of my business (ransac- nunirnt iiMscvcr Ihoii.s. Any money paid to me by Mr. Whitehead, any a.ssistance ino'irlvi'ivMiiy' lieudered by him, was for legitimate .serviceH and of his own free will, iiit.< ri'st in iui'. 1 , . 1 • I'll • 1 I .„ i 1 , liiisnii'ss triin y sue- the note> up, l<] to bo slanden the fact existed hers, and showeij love by the fn more convcnici^ the way it w; lilt in the papeii M rr 1 used therfoot." iiii fai;t. I had H iiirI at his own suggestion, and I consider 1 was free to re.-^ei've to tio'n uitii wiincss. myself the light to ]tarticipale in any work, to enjoy any proHt.-^ M,„H.y iv(-civ(Mi lei'ived therefrom, t(; become a partner in any transaction, so loiijr as I '.'"'I' vviiitt'iica.i lid not infringe on the statutory laws of the land. In conclusion, 1 s.Tvh^es. wear positively that out of the sum of 8-'5,0l).) in notes received from ()iit(ii$2.").(HK) ic- iiid advanc'd by Mr. Whitehead, I returned him 811,000 iindiscounted, {,™iii^i!m,''' ind have retired from the banks .SK-5,U0O, and paid interest charges antl retired .d:!,iH'Kiaii.i I ^ I J- ill • t- atm-n 1 • iiald nUerest and utlier cost:- and discounts, closely a])))roxi mating 557oO, leaving a <)iiier(!o.siN. cry small lemainder as representing the total amount received by me excess of the sums retuined or repaid by lifting the discounted aper; I ])aid the protested o I will Ioho. Iiim. I IiikI n* iiiloiilioii ol pi'ocot'ding iigu!ih 'I'liM III! In Mitil llIlll'^M Wllllrliciiil WIIH lililc III |)M,V ho wmilil iioi, \ corrosjiondonco with Mr. VVhiiohead since this Commission was appointed, nor has .Mr. \Vhil(dioad, or any one on his hehtdt fj;ivou tin; any docunutnt or relurned mo any notes sinco tho Comrnibsion wa> appointed; that in I'coing .Mr. VVhitehoad on behalf of the Manitoba Powder Works, I had no pecuniary interest, nor was I otferod any valuable c(*nsideration whatever by tho Miinitoba Powder Works, to elfect a setthfiiKMit of the ( laims aj^ainst Mr, Whitohoad. Ki052. I iinderrtand that you have olfored a very full oxplanatioii ol' matters whiiih were entirely private, -'vi;h a view to that .>ilatomoiit ot your private matlciis corrohoratii,^;; your rxplanation of matters which pertain to tho PiKiilif; Kailway? — Pro'usoly. 1'5053. And Iherclorit Ihoeorreclricssof the statement of your private matters is material lo the investigation of Pacific Railway matters? — Certainly; in connectifm with it imj)ortant matters with Mr. White- head have come oiil in Iho ifivostif^ation of the Pacific Railway, and 1 claim the indulgence of the (Joinmission to make this explanation. 13054. Do yoii kiwp books of account oi'your private matters ?— Ido not think that I iiver kopt any book at all with reference to Mf. Whitelioad — in nd'uronoo to hiH notes. 13055. Dill you about other private matters? — Well, as a genera! thing 13056. Fc- inhtitnco, have you had a set of books intended to show a statement of your private atl'airs from the time that you first had any connection with Mr. Whi!,ohead ? — No, I think not. I have had very 881 MACKINTOSH I, siH a genera! CDiiirnct %o. in« ii'hI 'I'ciitli-i Iiik liltlu tD.lo with Mr. Wliituliwul hiiicf I 1(m»1< tin- lMiHrie.s> of tlio (\'li:rii. Au.'K.Ii"IIn|.r.»- Tlio iiiiijoi' portion ol it 1 liad voiy lillh! U> do with ;il :ill. I had no |mt iiiii«i.iM-f. connection with tlio Citizen, as :i portion of my biisincsiJ, until ahout a n'ction wjiii year ago — not a your ago — u low months ago. riii«(muf tiiN. 1UU5('. I was not intending to onipiire abonL the 07c<'/t'.s bunines?*, Privntr nccuiini. Iiiit your own private niattorn: have you had books to sliow yonr own piivato matters for some years past y —No ; 1 could not ^ay that. My jiorsonal account 1 kept in a book at the otfico, but I do not think [ liavo over opr-ied the account myself for two years to look over it at all, but it is a .unriing account of just tlcbtor and creditor. i;{05?^. Independent of tho Citizen aflairs, have you had any books relating exclusively to your private affairs? — No; I think not. I opened an account, I think, with tlie JlaTumn/, v/licn I took an interest in the publication of the Ifamnrd Official Debates, because 1 iiad then a ])artner with mo, but unless 1 had a partner with mo 1 kcjti no account at all. 13059. Is tlioro existing any hook account which would show tho apitlication of tho money you i-aisod on tho Whitohead notes, because you saj' that you had to retire some 813,000 of thorn, on which therefore you must have obtained money or credit of some sort? — I suppose \ could account for a good deal ot it. 130G0. At present I am not asking whether you can account for it by recollection ; t am asking if there are any books or statements? — I ^ay probably if I went through my accounts there is a possibility I might. 1 could not swear positively I could, but I have a i-ocollection that I could, in looking through my books, select the amounts I got ihrougli Mr. Whitehead's notes; but as to telling how the were applied, it is an utter impossibility. They were always applied to pur- poses of business in every way — devoted altogether to business — never paid to any one or for any one outside of my own business transactions. If it is tho desire of the Commissioners to find whether they wore paid to any outside parties, I can swear positively not one dollar was ovoi" paid to any person outside of my own regular newspaper publishing business. Tliiiiksi it piohii- l)li' l>y lookltit; tlii'oimli Ills hook'. he liilKlil Sfli'ct Ihc lllllllllDlK lll^ Kot. tlir<>iit{li \Vlillfliciilrii!SH transacllons. Never paid to any one outsldt- of Ills own nrnv^itapt!!' biisliiofis, thct 13061. Besides these notesand drafts which you got from Mr. White- Jf-**'^''^''/'" head, did you get any money .'' — Oh. yes; he paid me during the years year i87tj-77, 1876-77— gave me drafts for about 153,0^0, 1 think-small drafts. iTn aboutV:!',')!-'. 13062. That is no part of the sum of about $25,000 ?— No; the only in istk-tsi vvi.it.'- reason I settled on this 825,000 is simply because I thought that came aijoili'fl'JHH'" into the evidence that 1 was to explain. I have never read Mr. White- head's evidence, but I saw in tho paper which was sent to me Mr. Whitehead wae recalled and said 825,000, and that is why T dealt with that altogether. The drafts he gave rae wore very small, and in fact were not felt much at the time. He would, when he was here, give mo a draft at sight, or something of that kind. 1 suppose he paid me — I think in 1878 or 1879, or 1878-79— ho paid me about $4,000, and then we Avent altogether on notes. When we entei-od into a specific agree- ment we entered into the last altogether made up the notes. 13063. Could you say about what sum he has given you, either in money or notes, which are still liabilities against him ? — Well, the only liabilities against him now would bo these notes amounting to 813,000. 56 MACKINTOSH 882 i'^!-;-y V t'.> , . • ',' . : ■ ■ ■ •■ i^ Contract No. 15t aiul Tt'iKli'i'liiw generally— Alle|t:cr«>- ]>er inlliii'iKie. Tlie wliole amount not fvoi'\ WliltclKiKl Horn t,lm(! to tinip about $;!4,iNKi. Tlio scnee tn Avliicli witness regards Uw note;- for $l.;,iMK) as ii nubility. Work (ionc Cdi' VVIiitflieiid wlioii any new work was i)ro.|0('ti'(l. Witness al)le to supply forms to WJiitehead througii no fav- ouritism of ttlH Department . Wliiteliead coni- plained about tlit; Interest lie liad to pay. 130G4. DndcrHtaiiding that, can yoii answei- tlic rent of tli(! riiio.sfion 1 ask yoii now tho gros.s sum, includinu^ those notes ami money at all times?— r should think, including the $25,000 in notes, that the whole ainount would bo pi-obably $33,000 or $34,000 that I h.-ivc handhuJ in notcH and money. 13005. Out of that $33,000 or $34,000 you have given back $1 1,000 ? — I havo given back $11,000. 13066. Then the balance, $22,000 or $23,000, he has given you, oitluii in money or in notes, which are outstanding against him?— Yes; ht; gave mo the notes and I had to take them all up. That is the way thai stands of course. I havo paid the $13,000 myself. 13067. But you have said they are still a liability ? — Well, of eoursi- T could not mid^e them anything else. I have stated in evidence tlic transaction on which the notes given were founded, and I could not very well My that they were not liabilities unlcf^s 1 gave them back to him. 13068. We do not want you to saj^ so : we want the facts? — I saiil distinctly, if Mr. Whitehead wanted them he was perfectly welcome lo them. I always told him to use me as ho pleased so far as tho not(< w ere concerned. 1306'J. You say. among other things, in the early portion of yoiii' transactions with him yoi undertook to furnish him information about new work projected : how would you got information about new work projected ? — His work was very difficult of access where ho was, as you .are aware, no doubt, imd perhaps instead of waiting lor the f>epai'tmerit to send schedules and forms to him, I could get them through two simply being on the spot and knowing whore to go and where to put my hands on the papers. So far as favo iritism is concerned F did not got much, although, of course, 1 was always treated with the groatesl. courtesy. 13072. You said that he complained to you he was paying large interests I'ov suretyships to some one? — Yes; he compluined to me 883 MACKINTOSH fjucstioii cy at all .hi', whole iindUui in :«1 1,000? ^•()U,eitlior -Ych; hi; ■i way tliiii , oi' course (Icnco the could not III back to hi? — I sail I ^olcomo to tho iiotc« [)n of your iition n\)(>n\ ' new work wuH, UH you l)epailTnoMt aihy? — No; oh no. Some time after that 1 helped him to laise ',',"7 '" '"'"*'' money that he wanted. 1M074. What money was that? — He wanted to borrow money tt> jjuy some btriko on the line, and ho managed to get the mcjuey. 13075. Through your assistance? — I'artially ho and partially through otliors, 1 helped him, but porfectiy in a private wu}'. lie got the money through the Bank of Monli-eul — I think il is tlie Jiatik of Montreal. 13070. What part did }(m take in assisting him to get itihrough the Bank of Montreal ? — Xothing in particular. J only advised him to show how his affairs stood, and to get wome one to furnish the money t(thim while he was waiting for his estimateH. 13077. That was advice merely?— Yes; altogether. He bad some iirraDgcment with Senator McDonald. 13078. I understood that you were of sotuo material helj) to him ? — Xo. 13079. Was it for this ay t'.iose that I have detailed. 13081. You have detailed so far thosytnpathy which you felt because wiiii.iuihi mil or lot' the payment to Sen,'aor McDonald ?— The interest of 8enat(»r ;;v',',",'t.Hl.''-^ ""■ I McDonald he spoke to me of some time .iftev that. The first advances that were made to me were not sympath}' from me to him but sympathy he felt for me ; he said : " Anything j could do to keep him posted, he .«>aieriniiiieiicc. iiitogctlicr uudefiiieJ ? — It related to what might transjiiie in tin' i'uture; there was always something turning up, always somothii:g Uiai wanted to be attended to. 13085. What do you intend to describe as the first occasion wheii you gave him some material value for the money or no'es which ho gave you? — AVell, of course 1 always considered that a. was giving value by attending to liis work, and he never found the least ftiuh, jio was perfectly satistied. 13080. It could not be loans, because you stated awhile ago it was to be paid in the future, so there must be a time when that commenced? —In 18T8 when lie came down his atl'airs were in a dreadfully mixed state, and he brought me all the papers and asked me to go throiio-h them, and said : ''I am willing to give you a share of the profits," us other men would have done, " if j'ou will work with me and show nio what to do under the circumstances." He had his affairs very badiv mixed, but I separated them and worked very hard for two or thr* • weeks getting them in proper shape. He wont away and left thciii ;(ii in my hands. He came back in f^eptember, I think, and found ihf in a good shape and closed up his business. Ill 1S78 Whitehead handed witness papers, and havln;; asked him to jto throu^li tlieni said he would give hlni a Kharc. Worked hard for two or three weeks j?eiting Wliitehead'8 affairs Into sliapo. This work related to contract l'>. 13087. Did that relate to the contrr.ct upon which he was then engaged ? — Yes. 13088. It did not relate to contracts lor which ho was tendering?— Oh, no ; at that time tenders might have been adverti.scd, but there were none awarded, and 1 do not think there was even an advertisement lor them. Accepted White- head's otl'er to Klve hfni a per- <'ent»^e on tils work HMiounting t;0 $ir),(i(io and 13080. Then, for the piesent, not touching upon the tenders for A, B and C — what value do you describe as having given to him for his advances to you ? — Well, I accepted his own voluntary offer to give uiu a percentage. I think it amounted then to $15,000, payable in, 1 think, payable inayear. a year. 13090. A percentage on what? — On the amount of work he was doing. He showed me the amount of plant he had. He wanted me to arrange the matter for him so that he could tender alone on it, and he said he had so much more work to do, and we then put it on a basis of a percentage which I was to get for looking after the whole matter. 13091. Will you describe the amount to which this percentage was to apply : was it a year's work or was it the whole value of his pro perty or contract : what was the gross sum to which the percenta-jte was to apply ? — Well, my impression is that it was on his plant. 1 am not quite positive but I think so. 1 think the plant ho valued at $300,000, $281,000 or $ 300,000. I am not positive about it, but I think that was what it was. 13092. And you mean that for making up during these two or tliicc weeks a statement of his affairs about that plant, he was to give you P per cent, on the value of it ? — No. 13093. Then I do not understand your description, ff thf t- Husac- tion ? — If 1 had kept any papers I had I could have, told • ou mine- dialely what it was. I never supposed it was to be f-jiokoa of, and so I did not keep them. Thinks the i)er- centage was on his plant wtiloh he valued at 885 MACKINTOSH he was thou tenders for A, foiit. wus it iiiutle up 815, UOH; bul wluit il was :ii)plioi! on, wlietlit-r it way the plaiil or tlio conti-act, I cannot. tcM. ll was a \\\m\) miiu. C'n«iti-]|('t Vo. t5» Piiil Tfiitlci-lilg 1300 1. 1 nii«lov>land jou arc subniittiii<^' tliis wliolc an'aii- for our ATh'si-VVmnro- ('Oiisidoralion ? — Yes ; iind I want it thoroti^lily sitUd. nn- iiiniu-nn'. 130:)5. That is wliy I am asliinif this (luostion? — Wlialcvcr thi3 iter runnof -aiy ;, whctlipi- till- per- ci'iilriiio wus (in till' i)liuit or the cuiitriKU. 1300(1 1 th.iuu-Iit you said just now it was not a iiunp 8uin hut a por- centaii;o ? — Weil, it was a pcniontago, luit ho lumped it, aii'i lie said: '' 1 will give you that if you attend to this matter for me." 13007. Do you say he offered to give yoi; 815,000 lor something? — Yos ; 1 wish the Commission to uri(ter>tand il. I am not ti-\-ing to reserve anything, hut I never charged my memr^ry with it, and 1 canuot say whether it applied to the plant or on the total work. I cannot swear to that, but vrc talked of a percentage. i;!0!)8. Are you satisthnl that he ])romised to give you something Hko 815,000 ?— Yes ; tihout that. 13000. Will }-ou describe what he w^as to give you that sum for? — ■^^.■!l, he came to my house and talked over his matters. We talked .« '..('r tlu! newsjjji.per Hrst, as we usually did, and ho said tome : " I have come to make an olt'er and to assist you in this maltei- if y )u will advise me in nij' business, and tell me what to do to get it in proper shape ; " and he mentioned some othtn- matters wliieh 1 now forget, llosiid: ' I will pay you this money," — at least he said : " 1 will give you this agreement or advance you notes ;" and we subsefj[uently made that agreement. 13100. About what time was that ho made you the offer of 815,000? wiiit.-h.'ad oiror- — I think ihaL must have been in October or November, 1878, st.nu - l^'^f^'JIons*'.'''''''* thing like that. 1 never went to him. lie always came to me voluntai'ily from the time I first knew him. 13i01. Was it at the time he made the offer that he gave von panci- Not until .somn to the exlai.' uf about 814,000 ?— No; 1 do not think lie gave it then. TnX'aui%Mte. 1 do no' ill' ■!< he gave it for two or three months uftorwards. 1 do not IhikI give witness .1 • 1 • '-I u ivi * papertotho tlnnk 'oaM, -no, he did njt. nniount oi*i4,0(n> 1m 0-'. .">iJ lie give ycu paper to this extent about the same time in sn.odOhKiiircient ililVei'ei;t il .'■us, or was it oil in one note?— All in dilVereiit notes. notes. i;)10;>. i' I 'j nand them to you about the same time? — Yes. llilOl. iiid together they amounted to about 811,000 drafts? — T think Ihcy did, 1 cannot swear positively. 13105. Do you lemember where it was that he handed tliem to you ? — 1 could not .^wcar liiat. 13100. Jlr.d you pi-epared them and did you take them to him for >ii'n liu'o? — No, I think not. I generally left it to him co say what ■I;:' ,. -ould suit him, yon know, but 1 do not remember wliere. 13 i'-. -Did you leave tlie question of amount to him also, or was it lo suit you ? — As a usual thing ho ]jut the amount and said what ho (uuld do, whether it would be a long date or a short date. 13108. Then the substance of this transaction was that ho gave you Nntureofnom- draftsof about 81 i.OOO, besides the 83,000 or 84,000 in money which !J^{];'|*,>V,X{7o, you had previously had, and all the compensation to him up to that tiiose drafts, time was your advice and looking over these papers and arrung- :,?»' W MACKINTOSH 8S6 ''■'4 r.'yy:^ !'' .Kr.^^ .m^ iu' V .♦•' ■ON in;| his aff{ii''8?— Coi-lainly ; I was to take full control of his business Character of wit- nesK'K !(f,'ency for Whltcliond. Contrat't Xo. 15, aufi Teiiilei'liiy l^u<>rtilly— Al!cKi'il iiiipnt- pt-r iuHiK-ncc. iuid ovei'yt hing tlso and udvi^e him here. He advanced tliat rnoin-v at that time not altogether hecanso it was tno value of the sorvictj I was rendering, but l\t)owing that the contract would last Moine time I was to go on and assist him in any way that I could. In fact I w^as retained by him to look after everything for him. Jf I ke])t uiiv writings we had ot his letters 1 could have been much more minute in my details with reference to the dealings with him ; but I never thought there would be any question in the matter and never kept anything in tact, important documents I. should have had I have lost. 13109. A great deal of this matter up to this time does not a])|)eui- to bo very i-elevant, but you have introduced it in oi-der to show that ji, verifies that part of the story which does pertain to the enquiry?— Certainly. 13110. Did you ever effect for iiim a definite arrangement with any one — acting as hi-< agent? — In what way, Sir? 13111. 1 do li I • ; 1 moan in any way? — Effect what? 13112 Any arra nent : you say that you were appointed by liim as his aerent to look alter all his affairs, and your services were of grout use to him? — Yes. 13113. I have asked yon did you in that capacity ever make any arrangement for him and bring it to a close ? — Up to that time any- thing he was doing was brought to a close. 13114. What transaction did you close foi- him in negotiating with any one ? — IN'ot with outside parties at all. Of course there were a grout many things ; when Iio was pushed for money I was to look after it, 13115 When you 8|.cak of acting as agent for him you mean with somebody else; you do not mean between him and you alone ; tliore would then be no room for agency ? — For instance, for departmeiitui work. He was making application to the Government for difforont thiiigs at that time. 131 IG. What for? — He wanted advances on his plant; he wanted change in the sureties. I think it was at that time that he got Senator McDonald, or whoever was the partner he then had, out. Ho wanted to change his sureties, and I became one at that time. Then, in making' his applications to the Government, J used to draw out all his papers and make any representations which he considered necessary, and gen- erally do his business as agent, the same as it is now done by a lawyer. 13117. Do you mean that the Government released Senator McDon- ald and took you as one of the sureties ? — No; the Government did not release Senator McDonald. It was in the matter of the Pembina Branch or something that Mr. Whitehead had finished, some settlement whore Sutton & Thompson dropped out of the contract, and it was necessary to have a new surety. 13118. With what Government was this arrangement made? — The present Government, I think. 13U1». And do you think that Sutton Ic Thompson were releaswl from some transaction by the present Government? — That is my impression. It may have been the late Government, but my impressioii is that it was the pieseht one. They went out of the contract at all events; whether under Mr. Mackenzie or Sir John Macdonaid, I do not Becnmc ouc> of Whitehead's snretles. Used to draw out hlB papers for tlio Department. 887 MACKINTOSH )f his business 1 that nioiK'v of tho soi'vici; aid last 8()ine ild. In fuel I If I U'e]tt aiiv loro minute iti never thought :ept anything ; 38t. oes not a]i|)o;ii' show that it, le enquiry?— oaent with i my 7htxt ? ointcd by him i were of groat /er make any that time any- igotiating with •e wore a greut so look after it. t?ou moan with alone ; there departmental for different he wanted he got Senator Ho wanted len, in making all his papers jsary, and gen- ie by a lawyer. enator McDon- nment did not ambina Branch tlemont whore was necessary t made? — The were releaHwl — Tliat is my my impression jontract at all )nald, I do not know. J became his surety, but that did not carry with it u release of the 5 per cent. Hcciirity. It was simply two (sureties who had to sign the contract, besides the 5 per cent. 13120. Wa.s that the Sutton »fc Thompson contract that you arc alluding to now ? — 1 could not swear, but my impression is that it was when Sutton it Thomp.son went out. 13121. And you concluded some arrangement with the (jroverniuont on that subject ? — Not with regard to their going out, because they allowed them to go out, but thoy accepted the now sureties they ottered. 13122. Don't you understand that 1 am trying to find out from you some transaction in which j'ou acted as agent for Mr. Whitehead, and with whom you were dealing ? — All tho transactions were usually with the Department. 13123. Will you state some one ti-ansaction in which you acted as agent lor Mr. Whitehead, and in which you brought your services to his use and closed it or arranged it ? — Well, tho whole of that matter with reference to the change, the time he took the contract on his own .shoulders and assumed it all, the whole of that arrangement was carried out by mo. Of course I couhl not go to tho Government and sign his name; he did that himsell. 13121. Did you negotiate that? — Yes; I negotiated it. 13125. With whom did you negotiate that ? — Well, some of it was, of course, through Mr. Trudeau the Deputy Head, and others through >5ir Charles Tupper ; but there was very little negotiation to do after I got all the papers ready, because Mr. Whitehead used to do a good deal of personal matters himself. 13126. In one of tho Blue Books concerning what is known as section 15, that is Mr. Whitehead's contract, a letter appears signed by Messrs. Sutton & Thompson, dated 16th of October, 1876, addressed to the Honourable Alexander Mackenzie, stating that in the event of their tender being accepted they desired to have associated with them Mr. Joseph Whitehead ? — Yes. 13127. Is that what you alluded to?— Yes. 13128. Do you think Sir Charles Tupper had anything to do witli that ? — No ; but I think they retired from the contract afterwards. 13129. They retired afterwards, you think? — They eiwher retired or their sureties retired from Mr. Whitehead's bond — something of that kind I think. 13130. On the loth January, 1877, Mr. Mackenzie, as Minister of Public Works, loports to tho Privy Council that Mr. Whitehead had applied to bo associated with Sutton & Thompson, and i-ocommended that that should bo accomplished ? — Yes. 13131. Are you still of opinion that that was not accomplished until afterwards, and that you negotiated it ? — I am still of tho opinion that Sutton & Thomp.son retired from the contract in 1878, or- else their bondsmen retired, or two new ones had to be. got. That is ray impres- sion ; I could not swear to it; but that is my impression of the way it stood. CnntrH«*t No. 1&, an2. Is yoiii' improsision still that it is nboiit fliis m.'ittor you oticcted some ut'gotialioiis on the part of Mr. Whitehead ? — Ves; it is iny iinj)ressic)n. I think I then heeamo a surety, and he desired a lar^e loan on his jjlant. I do not know exactly what it amounted to, 13i;{;5. 1)0 you say you became a surety for Mr. Whitehead with the Government on some contract ho had awai'ded to him? — I did. I do not remember what. I have not the faintest idea of what contract it was. 13134. Ihit you say your impression Is it was the contract witli Sutton iS: Thompson ? —Yes, I think they wantetl to retire; and Mr. Whitehead had to make now arrangements altogotlier. 13135. From the substance of several reports and letters in a Blue Book, it a])pears to us that Senator McDonald l)0came his surety alone ai'tcr Sutton it Thompson went out ; after they had no lon;^•cl• any interest in the contract, Mr. McDonald alone furnished landed security for the whole atlair? — Yes, Mr. Chairman; but it is neco'-sary besides getting the o [)er cent, security, always necessary that there should be two othei' sureties to sign u bond outside of the 5 per cent.. guaranteeing that the contract will be carried out by the contractor ir. all its entirety. 13130. And do you moan that besides the security of Honourable Mr. McDonald and his land, that you joined in some other way as an additional security ?— Yes. 1313V. Connected with the Sutton & Thompson atiair? — I could not say whicli it was. 13138. I understood you to say so ? — It was only thus far : that certain payments could not bo made until now sureties were got. 13139. And that difficulty was overcome by your becoming a surety ? — Yes; because I rcmombei' signing the papers. It was the trouble, ho could not do anything, and the next thing was tho matter of his oan. 13140. You are proceeding with the next thing, we have not got through with this. Will you refresh your memory about what benefit ho got by this change in the suretyship: do you mean that tho money was refused by tho Government from tho state of tho papers then?— He was not refused by the Govornmont, any more than ho could not got it. Tho Department of Justice, of course, would not allow the money to bo paid over until tho papers wore properly placed before the Government, and approved of by the Minister of Justice, or the ''•cputy Minister, i do not know which. They objoc'.el to any transac- tion taking place until the bond was re-supplied. 13141. How much money was depending upon that arrangement being accomplished ? — I do not know, perhaps $70,000. I do not know what the amount was, 1 think I heard he drew $70,000. 13142. Do you mean this to be tho substance of this explanation of youi's on this point; that he was in this predicament : that ho had $70,000 or thereabouts coming to him, and that he could not draw it until tho Government was satisfied with some now surety, and that you became tho now surety and relieved him from that predicament, and that tho Government was represented by Sir Charles Tapper? — I could not swear that ho was in a pecuniary predicament. 8S9 MACKINTOSH r ? — I could that certain arrangement ; do not know 13in. I am not asking wliotliei- lio was in a pecuniaiy rrcdicnnifni ; I am a-lviiig whcthci' lie wa-t in api'cdicamcnt ? — llofoun'.l it nec(."-^ary to conform with the rules of the J)e])artn"ient. 13144. And he could not do it until you arranged Avith Sir Charles Tiippor and hccamc surety ?— T did not t-ay Sir Charles Tuppei". 13145. With ]\[r. Truileati, then? — Yes; my iinprc.-sion is my name was suhiuittod to Mr. Trudeau and ho said lie was satislied. Thai is what occurred, but I am not quite positive about it. 1314(). Will you write it down and I will send a messcng-cr over to )Ir. Trudeau to see if he can find any such document ? — Yes. (Xoto written and despatched.) 13147. After the giving of these drafts to the extent of about 814,001), what was the next transaction in which ho gave _you cither money or note- " — The next transaction was the advance — as 1 ^-tated in in\" evi donee— of, 1 think, $12,000. lol4S, Would you explain the transaction by which he gave you this 612,000 of paper? — Yes, I explained to Mr. Whitehead; we talked it over several times, about business generally, and 1 explained to him that 1 merely required the notes at that time. That that of course was not any gift to mo, that it was merely accommodating mo at that time, to help me through. I told him that wo were very hard up. and he said : 'Well you shall not burst if I can do anything to help you." Wlufn these notes were given I saw an opportunity of buying out the other shareholders, and made up my mind to do it, but changed my mind. 13149. I must confine you now to the transaction of giving the notes ? — 1 got the notes from him at that time merely for use. 13150. As an accommodation? — Yes, to be used. This tendering was going on for sections A, B, C, at that time. 13151. The tendering ? — Yes. 13152. T want it definite : at the beginning the advance of tlie notes was entirely accommodation?— Certainly, I looked upon it entirely that way. I had no right to the notes. 13153. Ho would have been entitled to these whenever the matter changed — whenever ^' . Bain asked for thena? — Certainly. I waited until 1 saw whether uio negotiations would bo successful, and when the negotiations were not successful, so far as I was concerned, 1 put the notes back and never used them. 13154. You are speaking of a subsequent arrangement. I am con- fining my remarks to the original transaction : at the time that he handed you this money, are we to understand that it was jiurely accommodation on his part?— Purely accommodation, as I understood it, and I suppose ho understood it. 13155. As you understood it ? — Thai is the way I understood it ; I would have to pay back the money if I used it, and 1 told him at the time I might not use it, I told him that distinctly. 1315G. Your opinion is that something happened afterwards which gave him value for this paper by which ho became absolutely liable, not as furnishing accommodation paper, but as the real promisor ? — Certainly. iiikI I'i iidiriii^ K«'ii('riiilly — All'-^i'il liiipro- |H'I' illlllK'tlCt , Hiilitiilltcd to Mr, 'J'l iii|(:ui, uml ho siilil h<; U!iN lalls- neiitrn<;( Xo. I.'l, Hiui 'l'<;ii«t«riiiK V«>iia-riilly— Allc'K>'id you knovv before the time of tlie advertisement for tendci's that the Government was going to let the work ? — It was gone- rally leported, and I think thai one of the Miiiiatei's said in his speech, that he intended to build it. I think Sir Chai-les Tup])ei", in one of his speeches when going back for re-election, mentioned it. 13174. Do you think your agreement was made before the advertise- ment fbrtciiders? — My impression is it was made before that. I could not swear; but it is altogether likely it was. 1 think it was too, but we did not know them. 1 remember at the time that the sections wore goingtobelet — the two sections — we thought they were to be let in one entire block. I.'n75. When it came to the time of putting in tenders for that portion of the railway the work appears to have been divided into two sections, A and B ? — Yes. 1317C. And tenders were asked for each of them separately, and also for the whole, known as section C? — Certainly. 13177. You think you joined as a surety for him in his offer for section C ? — I think it is altogether probable I did. I could not say though positively. 13173. Are you aware that at that time you joined as surety for any- body else, any competing tenders? — 1 might have joined five or six if they came and asked me to sign my name. 13179. I did not moan to ask what you might, have done: \ want to know what you did ? — I mean I do not remember whether \ did or not. I am frequently in the habit of signing thobO things for any one that comes. 13180. For section B, the tender of Manning, McDonald & Co. has the names of Joseph Kavanaghand C.Ii. Mackintosh as sureties? — Ves. Contract l^o. 15t aiKl '^*:ll(ll■rlll^ K<'ii*rH|ly~ AilrK«>» .;;>. i< ' ' ,r, N'. r'v... ■I ' '">;'■■ .'i I I ' . 1 aii«IT<'ii(l<-rliiK K«'IHT»II,V — Alli'tt:*')! iiiipro- |i«T Inlliii'iif'i'. Assisted Wliitfi- liond lojjrct securi- ties lor S( ct ion I), l)iit I Ills no yiomiil oi claim. Orlfrinnl ni'vant'e- nieiit. Ilial he ^vi^s to liitve oiie-tliird slinre In •«<■<') ioii None of tlie eon- (lllloiis of iiuie<'. inont ever fnllill- u182. Doyou roiiu'mlior a.s.sisliiio; Mr. WhitcIuMd logo! .stirolics on his Uinlcrs lor soclioii B uloiio, if \\r did tciid'.'r for . hy itsoll ? — Ve- ; I think thcro wa.s soiiiotliing — 1 do no!, io'iic'iul.ii.'r any parliiMihir.s. i;>)8;5. ho you know wholhor ho considoi'cd you cnlilled to any 0()ni|icMisiilioii lor thai partiruhir service ? — Oh, no; 1 do n it think .^^o. I might nuMition that the namo.s that go in the jireliiniiiiiry luinhjis iir,- not tioco-sarily t!ic ones whicdi would go in (ho roguhir cotiiruct, its you know, Mr. Cliaiitnan; and, ihoroforo, if any ono cainu into my otHeo juid st.skcd mo to go on tlio tondor, iis long :i.s ho wa^ an honost husines.s man I ncvor rcl'u.sod. 1.')1H4. ThcMi the condition originally oi' this arrangoinoiit witli Mr. Wiiitohead was, that you wore to have a ^haro of ono-third it ho kuc- cooded in getting tho whole of section C? — 1 think llio who'o of the section ; hut 1 do not tiiiiik there was any dclined Hoctions as A, l> or C. 13185. But hy general terms it nnswei'cd foi- section C? — It may have hcen. 1 do not remember whether any names were given to the Boctions at that time. 13186. By some description — I will not confine tho description to section C — that portion which was known as section C was to bo tho subject of the contract Avith him in which 3'ou were to have a oiio-thiid interest ? — Certainly. 131'r7. And if ho bought any other person's intoi-osl in the smallei- contr.ict yon wei'O still lo retain your one-thinl intero'^t ? — Yes; that is the wa3' it was dctinod. 13188. Anil if ho wislied to buy you out, a fi.xed price was nr.med ? — Yes. i;U8!^. It wa^ S5n,i;00?— Somewhe;-o about 840,000 or $50,000; J do not romembor which. 13190. AVei'o any of tho conditions of (htit agrooment over fulfilhnl so as to entitle j'ou to any such componsnlion ? — Not that J know ot. 13101. Then how did yon afterwards become entitled to some com- ponsation : now we will proceed to the substitution if yon wish? — Certainly. Mr. Whitelu'ad came to mv office anil said that ho wanted to tear u]> the document. "Web," i said, "Mr. "Wbitoho'.d, i do not think time enough hivs elapsed to know whether wo should «io that or not ; because, from what 1 can hear, you are endeavouring to form an amtilgamation." At that tiino I heard that Fraser & (Irfint wore going to amalgamate tho whole work. I do not iinderstand all the points now, but they were going to take the other tenders and do the whole work. However, be said : "There is no such thing; 1 do not know whether anything will come out of it." T do not remember the cunvorsation in its details; but ultimately be said he would pay those noies it T would release him from tho bond. " However, you will have to give me lots of time to do it," he said. I said : " You can do as you please ;" and tho docu- ment was then destroyed. I said : " Well, Mr. Whitehead, you mu^st 8t);} MACKINTOSH IVk-ii.l .Mi. I \v;i.s a.-kwl who ciiiiu'. sui'clios on n hy it^oll? ic'iiiljer iiiiy illcd to aiiy it lliinlc so. ■ (cinloi's iuv colli. r.'ict, !i^ mo iiilo my ^, lui hoiio^l )nt with Mr. •d il he suc- vvho'ii oC tliu lions iw A, H C?— It may I given to the U'soviplioii to kvas to bo the [o u uno-lhud tht^ smallcM -Yds ; thai as nr.racd ? — $50,000; 1 ever fulfilk'il it I know ot. U) siMViC C'.om- you wish ?— It ho wanted 10'. d, I do not :i do that or £f to I'orin ati it wore goinii, (> points now, whole work. low wdiother nver.'-ation in OS it T would ;vo nie lots of and the docu- lid, you rau>jl "•ivo me sonu'lhing lo sIkjw the nature of tlie (raii-actioii, ln'caiiM' ."rl"'";'."* ' ^ , •,, n II !• I 1 .1 1. I Allo nolus .•' I iuvim' pn laiiiKvit. dreamt ii woul I ever eome up iri this way, liut I IhougliL from my own position it would ho better to iiavo it. 1 did not find it until yesterday. It WUH among a lot of old ]ia]iers that I had lhrt)\vn a.>ide, and in .seaixdjing, yesteidivy, I fourui it. I knew the matter would eome lieforo the (Jommiswion. Ofeourseit was only a memorandum, and not an ollieial or legal doeument. I ju8t drew it up, and ho signed it, hut 1 know it would not bo ii binding document if il eame into a eourt of law. F did not suppo.se it amounted to anything. 131!)2. J.s the Hub.staneo of your Htatomcnt eoncorning this .subHtituted agi'ecment, that because of your releasing him from the previous one he was to pay you tho compensation ot §12,000? — Certainly. 13193. And tlie reason why you thought it was of some value to him to bo released from the previous ouo was that you understood lio con- tomplated forming a eonnoetion with one of tho other contractors? — Preci.sely. 13194. And that if that were done you would by tho previous agree- 'i'ii,,ii^r),t n was or nient have retained an interest of one-third in his contract ?-~Certainly. yrUucto wiiite- •' lieiKl to he 13195. And to rellovo him. from tho possibility of that you reciuired aininnomont hm"' him to pay tho .$12,000?— Yes. Well, it was a voluntary expression !,V„Mi'iniKu'.H'f. of willingness on hi.s part to do it. wiiiuhi^-ni wlis Iryliii: to form a 1310G. You accepted it? — Yes; I accepted it. The notes wore .sent •'."/.Vi'.'l'.rl'o ^'iVi' as they were, and I was to bo entitled to payment of them. ■ Vi. 13107. Did ho accede at that time lo tho idea that lio was about to purchase any interest in any of those conti-acts ? — Well, ho never denied il. lie always acted as though ho were satisfied that he would in the end got tho intoi'ost. 131S8. From what lie said at thai time, or from his conduct, did he load you to believe that he would get the contract, and so interest you to the extent of the ono-third you had arranged for? — Precisely. I said to him at tho time: " Mr. Whitehead, you need not mind about this. Let tho matter stand just as it is." I said : " You know vei-v well I am not going to injure you. If you wish to got rid of mo at any time, I will go, ho you need not bother about it." lie said: '" I would like to know just where I am ;" so the arrangement was made. 13199. The actual date of the contract as reported by Mr. Fieri' in 1879 is tho 20th of March of that year ?— Yes. 13200. Vour arrangement is in May, nearly three months afterwards? Arransttfuuni — The contract was made in Marcli. I do not think for a month aflei- Vvii'iiVhea'i in wards there was anything done at all. 13201. It had been delayed by the Government ? — Yes ; that is where Mr. Whitehead thought bo had a chance. There wore so many coming ia he thought he could have an interest in it. As I learned from Fraser it Grant, at the time, they were trying to buy out his own contract, and that could not not bo done without my interest being considered. Il was in January, I think, we made the arrangement — about that time. 13202. Going back to the time when he gave you t^his $12,000 in paper, as you say entirely by way of accommodation, was any rein-e- fiontation made by you about that time to him that if he gave you that Uati' (fri^otit.i'acl. March, l»7!i. .May, 187!t. M MACKINTOSH fin4 i '{''*, ':tr i ,' i^m< >■ 'L ■ •/'. Cnnt.'-nrt No. IK, niiil'ifmaltirillV m^rn'ritlly— AII<'K*'<' iiiipro- lifr laMiH-iicr* When tlic pnpcr for $r.',n<«) wiiM kIvi'Ii l)y wiiy ol ni'i'oinmodjtlidii It wiiH ncvor liliit- «■(] tliiit It would l(cj uHa){)it li> Impress Wlilie- li(>H(l that It would pay to help wltnnss IxM'iiUHO of liillucnce with IlfiXK'irt or other Mem hers of I'ar- llaii'ciit. Hcarffly a day tlK^rt! was not HoiiiethInK to he done for hlni. hiin III yaiiiMioanii;^ wii Did not lead Whitehead to think that uiileHN he xave hini nolRH his affairs inlifht be pre- jndleod by •* par- liamentary coin- inllt«e or some Memhorof I'arlln- rneiil. Hald to Whlte- liead : "If you help mo with tlies€> notes I will help you with your matters." DkI not loud Whitehead to un- derstand that iinli!HH witness looked after his Int^trest It might he worse for him but Whitehead miKht have thought this. iiapoi' in uny h|iii|m) it would lio of soriu^ iiso to liis miillci' lli(!ii Iml'ii'o fli(! I'ul)lie Accoiiits (JinnrnitUH! ' — No iiolliini; iiioi't! t.liiiii I Miiid. lit) \vu« always driving to my liousi;, oi- ai lilt) ill tilt) olllct), l,o lo(,!< aCtfi* his l)ii>ititv-«s. I said :" I havoj^ul my own laisiness l,o looU aClor." it stnitdt me I could arrnn<5o it by tho means 1 altoi wiirds ur(»[H)rly iisod, or that thero was any nt)t;ossily tor its in)])i'o|M)i' iiMc. l.'i'JO.'S Did you not JoatJ him to uiidt)r.stand thatyoui- infliienco with Mr. llaggHi'i or with somo Mcimhois ofParliamont would boof suchus(( to him ti.Ht h() had botf-or holp you to this oxtont t)r to some extent? — No; I woiiM not hiivo imprtJHsod that on hi.s mind becauso ho know anti was always Ihoroughly t'onvincetl us to my being able to lookattor mattois for him and ariylhing he wante(J. Ofeourseyou ask tor details and I faniioi ,tr two tlavs ; but thoro was not a day hero that he had not soi;itjlhing Jio wanto(f me <,o do, or when ho was away ho wouM write to mo about, ,Mr. Ilaggart soomod to bo his bugbear ; he soemoil to think Mr. Ilaggart wan pushing him very hard, and toltl me so on many OfeaHioiiK. I ti mo far as tolling him I coultl deal withMr. Hag- gart J novel' iriKiriiiuted anything of tho kind, but he may have imag- ined thoi- WUH Homething of that kind — that 1 could use money to pur- chase political infliienco; but, as I have sworn tlistinctly,! never did i* tho nioNl remote degree. I don't see that the impression on his mi sht>uld bo evitlence jigainst me in tho matter. 13204. f don't say that the impression on anybotly's mind would bt^ evidence against anybtxly : it is only to arrive at the fuet that 1 am asking you the^o (|UeHtions? — Oh, certainly. ^■{205, Did you load him t<» understand that unless he gave you these no. OS, his utVaiis might bo dealt witli by some committee, or some Member ol I'arliarnofit, to hiM prejudice? — Nothing more than 1 havf detailed in my Htalement. With reference to that, he wanted me to give my whole Hum to looking after the matter for him, and to see that there wa« nothing unfair dore, and then wo had the conversation prior to the notoM Ixdng advanced. It there was an impressioa in his mind ho never ct/nveyed it to mo — never conveyed a suspicion of the kind to me. 1320«5. 1 ask you if you letl him to suppose so? — I can positively swear thai, so liiraH my action is concerneti,Idid not lead him to under stand HO. 13207, Did your woids lead him to undeistand it ? — ^The words I used I have detailed in my evidence. •l;{208. Do you ^h ink you remember the words? — Tfes; I remember saying to Mr, Whitohoutl : " If you help me with these notes I will be able to lielp you with your matters." 13209, Did you leml him to understand unless you looked after his matters it would bo worno for him? — No. I do not think f conveyed that to him by my notion. 13210, Or by your words? — Or by my words. He may have thought that. 8!)') MACKINTOSH nicioii of the 'he words I Colli I'Mi't \it 15, mill 'I'i'iiili-iliiK Ki'iM'rnll) - Allru't'd iiiipro piT illllllCIII'l-. Lcil WlilU-li.Mil I.. iiiiilci'Klnnil II would lie bftlcr to luiVfH<>iii>'liiMly look afli'i' 111* Inlcn'st. U'lillelii'iiij |iii>li- cil lilni It) liiuU iil'tcr Ills iiiiitiirs, Siilil lo Wl.lli- lii-ail : " ^' anil Hoo that it is all right, " montioning the circumstance; or, "I I ft'oiild like you to SCO Homobody and speak to him,'' as he did in the ciisoofMr. Haggart, hut ho novor suggested to ino to jiurchase any intlucnco or anybody. 13213. Did you suggest to hira that unless you exerted yourself on his behalf it would be worse for him ? — Not that it would be worse for him ; ho asked me to do what I could, and I said I would. 13214. J>id you load him to understand it was lUH'ossary in his I interest you should do .so ? — I led him to understand it would be holler tor bim to have somebody looking after it. 13215. And that you wore tho man ? — lie spoke to me particuhii'ly, hut in so fai' as coercing him it was his own wisli , ho had pushed me I to look after his matters. 13216. There was no necessity for him to push you : if you led him to understand it was desirable don't you see that wouM do away with tlio necessity of his ]iUshingyou? — It would; but 1 might at the lime have been so bothei-ed with my business, I could not (ind the time be wanted, and that is what I suggested lo him : " Vou had botler assist iiie if you want me lo assist you." 13217. Is there any doubt about this — that you led him to undcrstami jit be would assist you it would be better for him, bocau.se without your la^sistance ho might suffer? — No; J cannot swear to that. 13218. Have you a doubt in your mind now, whether you put it tb:itwayto him, either by word or action? — I have a very strong- doubt, so far as my suggestion to him that I was tho man to do it for him. 13219. Have you any doubt in your mind that you suggested somo- Iboily should do it for him? — I lliink 1 did. 1 think 1 suggested that Isoiucbody should. There were so many rumours going aoout, and ho Isaid : "What are you doing about tho matter ? " and 1 said : "[ have not [the time to do it mysolt*" We wore two or three days talking about jhii) matters. 13220. Had you any doubt when you impressed him with the idea l.at some one had better attend to his interests, that you would be tlio |oiie selected ? — My impression is, of course, that if I wore swearing 13221. You are swearing? — If I were swearing to that point, that, Poshiv.j ikxiiux- 1)1 course, he would come to me. I am positive about that, and I am tryinK*i'"i»'iy "' lalso positive that no such question came up as buying Members of Par- McmborBor [liament or using the influence I have. '^^ """ " ' 13222. Mr. Trudeau .sends this dooi men t : a contract between Sutton, Homi si^m-ii d.v [Thompson, Whitehead and the Government, »th .Fanuary 18*77, to B^wufonuIpiMh jwhich is attached an in.strument signed by yourself and Mr. Alexander '"iiuary ihtv. iBowie ; is that the bond to which you allude in your evidence ? ( Kxhibit l*'o 138.) — Yes; and this matter 1 attended to" I remember it all. 'ii^ JVIACKimOSH S9() ■;'%j.,..ie?^' I . ii; I ■* M . i','.r. . ■■.;•' '.'I aiKl Tt'iKli-riuju; U'fiM'riilly — All<-K'«'icd atiy ofToil lo itidiico AUoM-Vi'lmiiro- tho Department 01- uny one ooiincclod with tlio Dopurtr. out lo at'coiil in«r iniiiicnce* ;ho HUi-ety. 13237. Sufcly some one muHt liavo Kiigge.stod iho raattci", because the l)opai'tmont would never bavo taker Iho iniliulivo : you do not lueari thi.s was brought about oC lhr it if this was of no consequence ? — Of course 1 do not know what iinporlance the Depai'tment attaches to il. 1 only know wiiat took [)laco. 13241. Don't you know onougli about business to know that tI\oqucs- signal urcKi;! von lion of sufficiency would bo mat(!rial in accepting tho surety ? — Xo ; I w\7ii uio'n'i'u's m^ do not understand it in that way. The way wo understood it at the nie Utiiartiuent. time was simply to comply with (he lulo of tho Department. 13242. Ard do y(Mi think the rule of tho Department is that any i iip/v'i'ia'ii'niitii'i'iV rnattci- about sureties i^-uaran teeing the contractor would fulfil his ooii- thi; font liu Kir trad, w:is simply an addition that was I'cally of no very great imiKirt not consl'Ji'i'c'il of ' .1 •/ -^ JO i •' imicli ii;ii)orlaru'i! anCC. WliHchond tolTll,(KHI il'siicli R bond was tiiiiiid. Ko rufilprial fcC'-urily in tiond. Tliflond iinuilti-r oJ (orni. 132r)2 AVho in'ormed Mr, Whitehead that lio could not get his $TO,Oor; until such a bond wns given? — lie told me. lie came down here, J think, to arrange his business, and he told me ho wanted two new sureties. He said : " I want to get two new sureties and an arrange mont made." 1 think ho said he bought out the othor.«, or was doiuu ihe whole contract himself, I don't know in what way. and ho said : '■ 1 would like you to attend to this matter for me." I did not speak i.; the Dejiartment about it at all. I simply went in tho regular, formal way, and when it came up to giving a bond of that kind he said : '• U wiil require a bond for the others who have retired." i:3253. Mr. Whitehead said that?— Yes. 13254. Do 3'ou know anything of the circumstances of Mr. IJowio . is he suflSciont ? — At that time ho was not well otf at all. 13255. What would you call well off? — Of course I do not con- sider him a man thut would bo perfectly safe security if thoi-e w:is a money transaction on that. 13256. Was there, in your opinion, any material security i'l thi> bond to the Government at that time ? — I think not. At the same time I thought it fulfilled all that was requirol by the Government, at that time, as it was understood ; because tho names of those who go in as securities — they are not real sureties — they are only addenda Id the regular sureties. You will fin I hundreds of names just tho same way. 13257. Did you understand ut this time that your undertaking was any material security to the Government ?— I never gave it a thou:,dit — never thought of it. 13258. If you had given it a thought would you have considered it so ?— if the Government had asked me, or any one had asked me, if my name was good, in case there was a liability for a certain amount, men- tioning the amount, and 1 had known 1 was not worth it, I would, nmi have mentioned it at once. 13259. At tho time you otlerod your name as surety, wore yon in such circumstances as to mtike it a sufUciont surety? — 1 was, to make that a sufficient bureiy, because I looked upon the contract as perfectly good, and the Ciovernmont held $ SO, 000 security. 13260. Then you mean it was good because they did not want any surety ? — Yes. 13261. But if tJiey required additional valuable security, did your name give that ? — No, 1 would not have given it that way at all. 1 simply gave it that way as hundreds of men arc doing every day. 1^262. As a matter of form and not of substance? — Yes; it is d^me by two-thirds of the business men in Ottawa when there is a letting,'. They simply bring the names as a guarantee of good faith. If they had a^ked me if 1 was worth that amount of money, or any money Id ppeak of, I would have said I was not. 8LI0 MACKINTOSH 132G3. Thf Chairman: — We have not tiiiishcd tlu; questions that we wore about to ask, but we have reached the hour of adjournment, and wo do not propose to hear any further evidence until Tliiirhday next 1,1 11 o'clock. Contract "So. l~t, Hiiil Trii(l«>riiii; ariU'rnlly — Alli't;;<'ro> he said : '• It Mr, IJowic . i>. lot want any Ottawa, Tliursday, 4tli Xovcmlc'r, 1880. Charles II. MAcicrNTOsii's examination continued : l.'32G-J. The IVifnesfi : — I wish to call attention to a misreport in some Finnnciui status d the papers with reference to Mr. Tiowie. I am there represented as "' "'^^^'>^'- saying that Mr. Bowie is a pooi' man, a man of no position ; I did not use those words and never intended to say so. 1 said distinctly I knew Mr. Bowie to be a gentleman of j)osition, but I did not know his tinan- (ial circumstances. I was speaking in general terms in giving my ividence, and stating that I did not think if ho was required to pay $70,000 ho could do so ; that was the meaning I intended to convey whether I used the words or not. By the Chairman : — 13265. Is there any paper which you wish to produce? — No. 1326C. When did you first know Mr. Whitehead ? — I could not swear Uei wiiiteii.ud positively; I think I knew him some time in 1867, that is my impres- (Cau"a"a)" hion ; that I met him in London at the time of the general elections, I could not say whether it was 1867 or 1872. 132 17. Had you met him very frequently bef' .' he became inter- t-ted in this contract section 15 ? — No; no, I had not. 13268. So your first intimate acquaintance was after his connection Becftmo lutiiniiio with the Pacific Railway? — After his connection and tlurin:; the time afu^M he Vatters he was hero for some weeks, and some weeks before 1 knew wht'.t his fP""';!!'""..^'.'','. business was at all ; we used to talk together a great deal, and met RaViwny? together a great deal, and talked about western all'airs and old times there and became veiy intimate. 13269. Had ho any reason to think that you had boon acquainted with railway contracts, or would be useful in them as a coadjutor? — 1 tlo not think he had, I could not say he had, except from general conver- >ation we had. 13270. You have spoken of two sets of notes which he gave you : I T\m> -.t- or notes, iiiiderstand that the latter one was to the extent of aboui $11,000 or ? 12,000 ?— \"es. 13271. Do you remember bow many notes were in that set?— L K.owitmny'''' (ould not say that. noU'n in iiu-- 13272. It was not all in one note ? — No; the notes were gcneially Civen at long dates, three, four, eight and nine months or something i ko that, so there would be no trouble in dicounting or renewing them if required. 13273. As to the previous lot of notes out of which you retired about First lot or notes ihe amount of $13,000, were they principally given to you at one time ? Stom-'ulae.^''^'''" —Principally given at one time and at long dates. 13274. So that in edect there were two batches of notes? — There were two, yes. 67i ■'I MACKINTOSH 900 ;^'r ■;, 'i-'V'4' » ;• Some time in April, 1S7!I, hcffot the lot. for $I-.',iHio. I ' rontrnct lVi> I^, unci TciiiU-rtiii; AUeKt'rluMHo- l'^275. Aud thcso two latc'lierf coinprisod the principal paitoftho per iiiiiiu'iict'. -wholo that were given ? — Ves. 132*7'^. But besides those two batches there were s' mo smaller ones? — Ah I rnentioiU'd in my evidence, in my Htatenic t, I do not now remeniber, but there were some of those which he paid after war(i>, P.ositios tiie two there were several for $1,000 which he gave moat one timo, audi no\l-s'fo1'TiooI)'''' counted that in tlio general amount— the aggregate that 1 m: Je up on Saturday. 13277. Could you bay about the date when he gave you a batch o:' 815,000 in all ? — My impression is — 1 am inclined to remember ihui vei'v iact in connection with my conversation with Mr Uags^art, becauM! in my evidence I said it was before my c.'>r .-ersation T got the notos— my impression is it was subsequent, I thinl< it was somewhere iu iho leginiHiig or middle of Ajtril or somewhere there, I know only a low M'eeks elapsed bcitweon the lime he gave me those notes. I tranbferi'oil them on account of our subsequent agreement. lie went away a low weeks and came back and made tliis proposition, but while ho was absent I heard that he was trying to make arrangements either to sell his contract or get the other woik to amalgamate with his. 13278. Are you speaking of the $12,000 batch or the 815,000?-! am speaking ot the ^I2,00(i, 1 am talking of the notes he gave mo, 1 think, in April — April, 1870. 13270. April, 1870 ?~In April, 1879, which he transferred. 13280. And are they the ones that Mr. Bain got ? — Yes. 13281. I was speaking of the first batch ? — The first were given \» me, I could not say exactly what date — some time in 187B — the lattc' jiart of 1>.78. 13282. Could you not detino it more closely than the l.Uti'i- part of 1878?— You see I could if I could go by the notes, but I could not go by the notes because Mr. Whitehead when here woull change the dates so as to take up the old ones and renew them. I can- not trace them back on account of that, but my impression is that it was in December 1878. 13283. Then these notes were current at the time ho gave you the second batch ?— Yes, most of them. They wore either held as colla- teral or discounted. One of them of $4,000— I do not precisely romom- ber all the particulars, but Mr. Carriere, who was then President of tiie Citizen Co. spoke to me about trj-ing to arrange some financial matters, and I told him I would try to get Mr. Whitehead to accept that draft of $4, (00, which he did either by note or by draft, and Mr. Carriere endorsed it and wo discounted it. That, I think, was after December. ' 13284. After he gave you the first batch of about $15,000, did ho give you any other notos except those which Mr. Bain got back or renewals of the portion of the first batch? — lie may have given renewals. 13285. But besides renewals ? — I do not remember wdiether he diJ or not. lie may have given mo some small ones. 13286. Did he give you any money ? — lie paid a small amount of one of those notes ho gave me, and, as I said in my evidence on He paid 14,000. Saturday, I think ho paid $4,000. Some time In Dc- conihtr, 1.S78, yjot the lot for ;^15,f •H.j.dOO not renewed. were given. 13294. This batch of $15,000 was not renewed ?—Xo. 13295. That you can give us exactly ? — That I think was the 15ih of April, but he never confined himself strictly to the dates, 1329 i. I am spoaking of the entries in your books? — \ had no tiitries. I never kept any entries. If 1 had 1 could y)roduco them; ami though it is a private matter, I would have produced them. 1 could not say that there was a note dated 15th A])ril ; L could not ^wear that was the date that it was given on, because Mr. Whitehoal might have dated it back, or said :" 1 will not be here until so-and-so," ;ind he either dated it back or ahead, and consequently 1 cannot swear 10 the dates. 13297. Of these two ])rincipal batches, are we to umlerstand that the la.st was given originally only as accommodation paper ? — The last. As f informed the Commission on Saturday, I had gone into this arrange- ment with Mr. Whitehead.and I was therefore not sodiltiilent about 13298. I am not asking your reasons : at present I am asking iiioseoon,] hatch whether that second batch was entirely accommodation paper at the [,'[ ","|,'',';/*|'|7,,'j'JJ|, boifinninn:? -Yes; and 1 think I said to Mr. "Whitehead, if I did not use ;HToriiMio 1 ■' '.'..1 ■ ■. V t .■■ill f,-; Contrnvt Ko. 1 .'>« and Teiitlering ir<'ii«rnlly — AIU>K:o4I iinpro- l>vr iiilliK'iit'c. M'hitili.v'ul ;tgrft,'(l lo tiiki' notes (first liii'ch lor $I5,(,KJ0) H[> 111 tlu! eu<\, but witness to ciiri'v Miciri as Inns,' iis lie cou.ii, Vahl«' rciiilt'vcil for notes (first l>ivt<-li) to look after W'lilloliciKr.s business and seo that lie was not unfairly erowiled bj others. If sum measure il by eomniereiai value of witness's ser\ lees he was excessively jiald. Witness never l"il Wliilelieail to understanil that h« couUl proouio him favourablo fonslilerutl')!! from the Oovern- rnent. received ; but I always understood, and I think he understood, th;it tliorio notes wore to be paid by him, and to be carried by ino as long m 1 could. He never expected to bo in difficulties, and consequently never thought there would bo any trouble about them. 13303. But, irrespective of consequences or after events, was tho substance of the arrangement, at the time he gave you the first butch, that from that time forward they were to be a debt of his, or \voi(' they only paper of his that your were to use for your accommodation ?— Well, I only know how 1 looked at it. I looked at it as an agroemem made by him with mo, and in agreeing to that ho agreed to give mc^ certain notes, and to take them uj). That is the only way 1 lookotJ at it, and the only way it was. 13303. Now you say he agreed to take them up? — Yes; he agree i lo take them up in the end, but I was to carry them as long as [ C(juM, 13301. Then there was an agreement that he was to take tln;ni ud/i — Yea, an expressed agreemen*^^ 13;J05. I)o you remember where that traiisnction ha]>pened ?— 1 tliinivj it was in my own house; that he called on mo and talked over multer. and told me what ho proposed to do with mo, and what he wanted n.c] to do as far as I was concerned ; and we then made that arrangomont but where the notes were given I could not say. Some of them, I lliiiikl wore given in my office, but I could not bo positive Ihtit was the tiiMl arrangement. 1330G. I am speaking only of the first arrangement at piesent '! That was in my office. 13307. I am not speaking of the first arrangement strictly, l»iil i {| the first largo batch uf notes ? - Yes ; that is what I mean. 13308. What is your explanation now of the value which you tliinf you gave him for that batch of notes ? — Well, it is a rather ditiictii thing to define value in a matter of that kind. 13300. Well, call it consideration if it was not full value?— It wii^a.u offer made to me by a contractor, and I accepted the ofier, I supposi like any other business man under the circumstances, and ]>articiilai'!\1 as there was not a large amount of work to do for him. The valiK rendoied was simply to look after his business, and to see that lie wa-. not unfairly and unjustly crowded by others who wanted to brealv hinij down, and to see when ho was tendering to assist him in every way could — eveiy legitimate way — whx'h I did; to write to him Iroi quently and keep him posted as to the movements of other contiiKtnrs and the movements of tenderers, and public works being lot ; aiij generally to look after his business. If you measured it by the ca^ value, as to the amount which my services were worth commoroially. i was, of course, excessively paid ; but the proposition coming from MrJ Whitehead himself and not from me, and he considering my sorvidj were valuable, he sot his own value upon them and 1 accepted his pr. jiosal. 13310. Don't you think that this excess of payment which yiti a:i now alluding to was because he was led to understand that he woiiii g'lt some equivalent from you in the sh >pe of favourable considoraiiii by the Government? — Well, if he was led to understand that it wui by some other than mo. 1 always understood from him, when his conl lon<^ as [ coulii. L ut piCrtont ■.■'- beini; let ; mil C7»ii(rH4'l Sn. I ", mimI 'l'<-n«l«'rlii){ , 1,1 • , • , irwiHTwIly- tract was in a good position, tliat ho was goinp to assist mo in ovory Aiii'ir««i imprfi. way ho could ; but I never in my life told Mr. Whitehead that I would ''"'■ •■»""•""•• approach a Minister and ask anything that a Minister could not do. I would not have done it for him and 1 never did it in my lift, and he has since expressed himself perfectly satistied, and always did, with tlu; way I was doing his business.. His business was a difficult one because he was mixed up with a groat many people in Manitoba and olsowhciij, and I advised him how to manage it without consulting a great many. All I can say is that any and all business that I did for Mi-. Wliitehe.ul aii iMi,in-ss.i.Mi.3 was done in the most legitimate manner, and I would not fear if the \v muiI'.-mV'"^ whole world knew every word I said to him, and whatever 1 said to !i i' ^inimut.-. Minister, and I very seldom saw a Minister. [ suppose I am not in the iMinister's office once in six months — in the Railway Department. 13-111. Do you believe that ho was led to expect that soit of bendit in compensation for this excess which he paid 3'ou over the fair vahie of your work either by any one else or by yourself, although you may not have intended it ? — I could not speak for any one else, but if any one did it, it was without my knowledge. 133.2. Did you not, from his manner and conversation, think he was luuler that opinion ? — Only because ho always consulted me, that was idl. Mr. Whitehead never asked me. The only thing ho over asked me to do, I remember now, that I thought was rather out of the way (although ] put it down to the fact that he was not conversant with the statutoiy law and parliamentary rules), he was anxious at the time of the second letting to get the entire work at his own prices without tendering and to continue it, having the means of access and tJie rolling stock and everything re\' in his Hie. He siinjdy spoke of carrying on his contract as i then was, and never spoke ol having an advantage in his contract. Thei e had been changes wlieii Mr. Mackenzie Avas in power which ho told mo benefitted him very nuich. J did not think anything of thai. L suppose, had it been done under the present Government, I would have been blamed for it ; but I knew nothing about it, and Mr. Whitehead could never have been led to believe from mo that any excessive prices, or any extra or excessive privileges would have beon gained from co-operating with me. U hilchinil s cori' hlitnt '''iiiMii|i!i- tloti nf \vll.tii's-t only iliiri:; uliicli I'll hliii lo hi'lli'vc llllll III' ( Wiltll-MS) '•onlil iir'M'iiri' fiivoiiriiMc fon- Irni-i •: «vitlioiit tciiilcriiK'a I "I'l tl'if liiMkc ttllH |llo)ios r I |(, (iiiy .MIiiMcr. Whiiclna.l rxvor f-|iolrice I'd' youi* berviot's measurct by tho catb value? — Vc«. Mvo price for 13310. roi'wliat reason do you tiniikho gave you that excosnivo witnesb'B sorvices pj-jce? — 1 Paid measured by a coiritnerciul Btandurd — taking a (lomnicr. ExpiainH charao cial view of'it — for tho services I rendered him and the time 1 jriivu him, certainly it was an excGHsivo price; but (liero was more Ihaii tliat. He had Involved in this work nearly two millions of dollars. Jlo luiil everythini^ he was worth involved in it, aral he simply madr u pioposi. lion to me to share in the piofits to a certain extent atid to look aftor his interests. He wa^ in jeopardy unless he had a business man to look after it. Icr ul'stTVift's, Acti'ii asiuiviser. 13317. AVbat f-ort of a business man do you mean — a lawyer or ;t railway man ? — 1 gave him a great deal of advice, not as a lawyer but as an adviser. As a railway man, of course I knew nothing about Un railway itself, but I certainly knew when a man was ])aying a liiit,fc amount of interest — as 1 heard 10 per cent, a month — and L further knew that when he was keeping his books irregularly, and wliei: liii hadia largo r.mount of rolling stock and did not know how his accounts stood, if he had some one to put those things in shape and to pre])aio a schedule, that it was worth something to him, ar.d he having come h> me and having made that propositio;i 1 accepted it. old \l hltcticad lie coiiUl not pay the Interest he wns pajliiu for six luonllis with- out fatlnifr. 1H318. Do you say that he inf(jrmed you that he was ]»aying 10 ].ci cent, a month or 10 per cent, a year interest ?- What tirst called my attention to it was i\Ir. Whitehead saying to mo that there wan an attempt made — that by looking at his books, or that Jiis book kecjn r told him that some one had gone to his book-keeper and said ho was to bo charged 10 por cent, a month for advances. He made si.tno ox|)lai)ation of that to meat that time as to tho interest bo was payiiii,', 1 said :*• It will simply crush you. You cannot do it for six monliis without failing." I said : "Make some arrangement as soon as you go to Toronto with tho bank, and get yourself relieved from these advances, because if you are paying 10 ])ei' cent, a month it will luin you." 11(3 said he would. Ho went oif to Toronto and wrote mo down afterwani-; to say that he was making arrangements to get himself relieved. At that time ho was getting his rolling stock and plant taken as security for money to pay up this thing and get rid of the interest, and he also wanted to get some advances at the time I became that surety, and it was merely a formal thing. I think it was some claim he had on tho Pembina liranch, and some other money on his contract, section 1."), he having tinishsd up the Pembina Branch. Whitciicnd }j;of, l^'UO. Did ho get the loan that you speak of from tho bank? — Yes. im n r a I'd "il ','(!<' n I think he got $UO,000 ; I think that was the amount. and Kot rider t lie 13320. Was that from the bank Or fiom the Government?— He ir^oi bec'ii 'paying"^ '^"^"^ ^*^*^ Government as well. Then just before that tho Govorntaeiit advanced him— I don't exactly know how much. 13321. $40,000?— Something like that on his rolling stock, but refused to grant him anything on his plant. 13322. Had ho got rid of this burden of interest altogether before ho gavo you the $15,000 of notes? — 1 tliink so. I think at that time ho wasjust ])reparing to do it, or had made arrangement to get out ot' Aliont the time Whitehead made Ihe above ar- rangement he nave witness S'w."'"'^^'*^"^^ paying the interest. $ '. ..■ !'' ' , 905 MACKINTOSH nosH tnaii U It?— lie ^^>t Ciovornniont ' stock, tiut rontrKot No. 1.5* and Teutlerlng 13323. What interest, the 10 per cent, a month?—! do not know j^'i^^'litTimpro- (hat ho was paying the 10 per cent, a month at the time, bocauHo 1 in«r infliieacr. told him when ho wont back to Winnipeg to try and makoMom«i otiior iirrangements, and see if it was true that lie was paying that much, lie caid that no one was to blame, that he did it with his eyes open. 13321. Was that paid for getting a sui'cty at tho time thut ho got the contract? — Tiiat is my impression. 13323. That was Mr. McDonald ?— Yes, I think so; yes. 13326. And do you say that ho got rid of that burden of interest, whitoiieadas.sur- becauso he bays "^it still exists?— lie told mo thai ho had ;!U)0(», retired 813,000, that will leave a balance of about 810,000 ?— Yes. Kiolifthe ' 13328. So that you make it 80,000 or 810,000 the amount that you ixct-ived. actually leceived ? — Yes, I thiidc I got in 1S77 and 1878 as much as I got in 1878-70. I cannot exactly remember. 13329. Besides thor in the shape of advice and sympathy and giving s(Mne information ? — luai'ioii?'"^' '"''"" f did not say sympathy. 13336. Did you not say so on Saturday? — No; I did not .' wliolo $lO,n(K Hi>ii<' I') wllnes.><'-% ijonetit. rm I sympathy. «*.■■■' . »,-'''.• Cnntrnct No. IKi anilTendrrliiK K«rcrnll]r— J ll<>Ki- understand what 30U moan, and, therefore, I have to trouble you some- times to explain a second time? — My explanation is that Mr. White- head voluntarily made an offer to mo that if [ would a'tond to his business, so far as keeping him thoroughly conversant with tho move- ments of contracts and contractors, the publication of schedules an! forms, advising him in dirtcrcnt ways at ditlorent times 13344. So far that is information and advice; now, what else?— As to his work', attending to liis agency business, which included jhc- paring stafomonls and arrangoineiit of details with regard to his rolliiiL' stock and plant. 13345. Were tliene statements compile I ■from information which t,o would give you? — Certainly. IIo used to bring all his docutneiits down. 13346. That would be a job which persons without vciy great ability could accom]»lish — that would not be a very valuable sei'vicc? — I ila not think so — not that part of it. 13347. What else ? — And to roall}' represent him in his abser.cc Wvm Ottawa. 13348. Kopresent him with whom ? — Ropres-ent him as an agent in any business he hud with the Government, or any one else. 13349. Then it was representing him in business with the (iovorr- ment ? — Well, yes. 13350. Was that a material part of it ? — It was to ropres^ent blin with the Departments. 13351. Did you materially bor.efit him as agent? — I cannot say tha' I did, any more than any other mun might under tho circumstaiico^. 1335:^. You see it seems singular that a man who feels how much lie is pressed oven to pay interest for actual advances should bo willing to ^'ivo 324,000 for services of tho sort you describe, unless ho obtaiiiol Avhat ho consitlored to be some roid advantage, and [ want to know, if ho did consider it matevial, what tho advantage wa>», and whether li • secured it? — Well, I can only swear that I know of no advantage Mi, Whitehead received, other than I have detailed; that I o.or securcl from the Department any excessive advantage, or asked it. 13353. Do you remember anyone note or acceptance which ho [)iii i of about tho sum of $5,000 ? — No ; I never did. 13354. AV^hat was tho largest acceptance or note wi.'ch was paid at Winnipeg by him ?-$2,000, I think— $2,000. 13355. Did that go into your own hands first from him? — Yes ; it was ordorstd by Mr. Cari-ioie, of the Citizen, 1 think, and he drew uu ' :• .iV'' y [•vice? — I lio absence frotn the Govorr. low imicli he e.ei" seeiuo' mo. I reinoinbor tlio transaction now. Ilo diow on mo thn)Ui,'li the Ontario Bunk, and tolographoJ me to draw on him. I lorijet vvluit the leHiilt wu!*, but he paid it ultimately, It was $2,000 or 32,'-00— $2,000 I think. No $r),OOJ was ever paid mo. 1335G. Vou moan at one time? — Of course, I moan that. 13357. Becnuse altogether it waa some $9,000 or $10,000 ?—Vo,< ; 1 have said that. 13358. Now are you not aware that throughout his deaiinj^s from the bof^inning, or at all events from an early period in the transaction with the (rovernmotit, that ho has obtained some consideiable I'avour.s from the Government ? — [ am not. 1.J359. Arc you not intimate cnougli, nolwithstandiiii^ the^o con- tidential arrant;omentH between you and him, to be aware that ho received a percentage which the Government was entitled to hold on his Work, and which they gave up to him? — Vos; 1 know that. l'}3()0. Do you not thiidc that a matei-ial advantage? — [ think it is a material advantage to some extent, but nothing more than wc^uld bo duno to any other contractor under the same circumstances. 13361. Do you not understand it was entirely a matter of favour, and not of right, that ho obtained that ? - 1 never know that il was a favour. 13362. Do you think that every contractor is entitle:! to get whnt they call the drawback, as a matter of right? — No. 13363. Then is it not a matter of favour ? — It is a matter of favour to that extent, of course, but it was imt a matter of favour individually applied to Mr. Whitehead. If another contractor were in the same pt)sition he would get the same favour. Mr. Whiteliead had given his jolling stock and a large amount of security. The Government says in his contract, it will assume all this rolling stool, when the work is i^inished— buy it, buy it at a certain price, consequently the Govern- ment was perfectly safe. It was a favour, of course, but not afavoui- Jcopardi/-ing any right of the Government or infi-inging any dopait- mental right, when tho Government advanced on that rolling stock. 1.3364. Do you say that all along you believed it a matter of right lliat Mr. Whitehead should get this drawback from the Government, .•ilthough the contract provided that it should bo held until the work was complete ? — I could not say that it was a matter of right. If it had been there would have been no necessity for applying for it. 13365. Do you not think it was a matter of favour ? — I think it was a matter of pi'ivilege, but not specially to Mr. Whiteheail. I must measure my opinion of this particular transaction by what has been done to others. Of course I think it was a favour if you put it that way. 13366. Of course that is the way I have been tying to put it : did you take any part in the negotiations at the time he first obtained this favour from the Government ? — Well, I do not think there were any negotiations to speak of, except the pre^'aration of tho papers and appli- cation to tho Government. Coiitrnct No. fit aiitl T<'iiilrriiii( ir«tn<'rnllr— Allt'KiMl Inipro- |><-r tnllUVIK'I'a nid III I n'crisc iiM mill II iiM $.'i,iil. JIow Wlillilioml !{ot iJ raw back. 13367. Yes. Whatever it may have been, did you take any part in it Touk part In nogof laf loriH for (ir.awbiick. .^- MACKINTOSH 008 I ' ''■'! I ,' Contract No. in« anil TrntlrrliiK KcnrrMlly— All<'y,<'«l Inipru* per lalliimir. NrKoflatlonHWIlh Mr. Trudcau. Mny lidve nion- IIoikmI miittt'i' to sir ( harlt'M 'J'llplKT. Vi'MS. Willi wlioiii (lid MioKO iio/^oliationH tukc ])lac'0 V— Well, lay iiiipiTHHiuri \h iliHf, rriOM' of tlio nogotiations took place throiif^li Mr. Triidcuij, iirxl I think in iho .liiHtico Dopartrnont, tliei-o had to bo some jiapoi'M pioparcd, Sic Oliarlon Tiipper, I think, was away. Tho appli(';i- tion waH niiido in Octohui-. ]'.Y.Ui'^. Who wa^ ur,ting lor Sir Charlos Tiip!)or ? — I cotild not toll. I do not i(!iri('rnh<'r. I wiih not in the office. 1 do not think I wa>> iti tho olfico whihi Sir (-'harluH Tiippor was away, Tho Mitnster very hi'ldopx |i«h anyihitig to do with il. It passed into tiie other Dcpfut- UlCfltH. l.'}.'{70. Oo you rernetnhcir tliat you saw anybody on that subject / — \iin, I niuhl havo. 1.'}."'.71. Widl, whdiddoyou rcmcMiibcr havin;L^ seen ? — I do notreraom- bor. I renu!rnb(!r He»!ifi;.( Hcvoral departmental officers, but 1 do not romeiribcr any f!(»nvor,Malion 1 had with them. 1 remember, lor itistiinfo, rnoDting Sir (JharJes Tupper. I do not know that ho was Minister — yes, ho was Minister Ihon. Jle had just been appointed. I may have riienlion»;d thn matter to him, but merely casiuiliy, becauso I always cfMi'-idnrcid that tho Miidster had very liltletodo with the matter until nil iho tiapcus were prepared, and then I did n(»t speak to him. Sir (Miarhts 'ruppor had left. Mr. Whilehead saw Sir Chario-j and wrote that Sir (!|iarles Tupper had spoken very kindly to him, and told him that il he could ho of any assistance to him ho would be glad to do it, that he was going to push tho work on. I romembor receiving tiie letter, and tho contents of it. Ho was bound to have tho Moik vhroiigh as lawt an men and nioney could put it through, and that ho had sai I to Sir (-'harlos Tuppei- that he would want him to assi^t him, and Sir (-'haries said ho had better wait until he camo back. That is all the (MuivcrHaiion I hitd with ref»U'ence to the matter and correspon- dence with Mr, Whit<:li(wi ubcut it. 13157-. I'd you know whether that was the first occasion oa which ho h:td obtaimxi from j.ny (jovernment tho drawback? — 1 do not remember. Mr. Whitcluiad camo to mo tho first conversation avo had. Ho said it wai-t riot.hing to do, because Mr. Mackenzie was going to do it lor him, I haid : " I do not know what the rule is; but if anything can be done I will do it for you." L3.'J73. You hay you iuid a power of attorney from him in 1877'' — VoH. 13374. And that you were very intimate with him? — Yes. 13375. And had talked with him over his business ? — Yes. 13370. I thought from what you said on the subject that you knew all about it : I a.-k il ho had got all drawbacks before this time ?— Ho never informed mo that he had. 13377. Then your relations wore not so confidential as you led us to suppose, if he liud rtjccived it and did not inform you? — 1 did not say whether ho did or not. Jnwbuck'to*'*' 13378. Do you hay now, tl.e first advance of tho drawback to him Whuehcfld of was tho first lime you spoke to Sir Charles Tupper ?— That was the first wlilcli •vitues.'- 4;,v,« ' II mi .'I power of iiltoriii'v iioin Wl'jtf'licad ill 1M7V. 909 MACKINTOSH k't'll, my iif^li Ml'. bo some applicii- not tell. I wa^ iti tor vci'v r Dojini t- ibject ''— )t roraom- l do not nbcr, lor ut ho was ippointcd. 7^ bccauso with till.! , speak to ir Charlu-i ) him, and id bo glad •rocoivin^j^ tho woik i that he |SBi^t }iim, That is Icorrcspoii- on which 1 do not In we had . ling to do anything 187^ •ou knew I mo ? — Ilo led us to |d not say Ick to him las thotirsi 1337^. That is your rocoMoction of it now? — That is wry rocol lection of it; ol coiiiKi! otluT fiiciun-'luncus i. light mako ino rocollccl iiioiu', b'll I do not loinLinibor unylhing in(jio, 13380. Do yoii ruinoinbor when yon wore here bofofo tilling us that your conipon.-r Mr. Whitehead, and ho mallo it himself, 1 did not know that it was not n perfectly regtdar proceeding, and I do not know to this day that I ij not. 13385. I do not intend to suggest that it is irregular at all. 1 am ordy endeavouring to find out some foundation for his paying you tho sum which he has paid, and it occurs to mo that he got a material advantago by tho use of tho largo sum of money which ho has described in his own evidence, as $180,000, I think ? — I do not remember what it was. 13386. The use of that 8um ?— No ; tho application was. 1 think, ior $80,000, because f remember it. 13387. Well, if it was $80,000, 15 per cent, on that would be $12,000 ? — Yes; but there was nO such thing. 133S8. That was not tho basis at all of the percentage ? — No ; there was no such thing. 13389. Y'ou mean that was a single ap[)licalion, and Mr. Whitehead pays lie got his at different times ?— Yes; he has got some this year, and I have not been doing any business for Mr, ^Vhitohead this year. I have been doing nothing at all since I have had to take hold of tho business of tho paper. I have had nothing to do with him at all ; but 1 could not state distinctly what our arrangement was. Mr. Whitehead may have thought he was giving me those notes and would get this advance by doing so ; but he never told me so. 13390. Could you state the time of the j'oar at which you wont to him about tho Powder Co.'s claim to inform him that he was likely to be arrested ? — Will I describe it ? 13391. Yess the time of the year ? — I think it was the first week in August, 187;^. 13392. He has never given you anything since that, has he? It was not ior this service that any part of the money was given ?— No. Oi>iiti'ii<( S». Illi ■iikI 'rriiili'liiiK K'-iiKrnll.v - AilrH a|i- i'i l>lii-ali()ii wan lor I'l )iHII,IIIHI, ,;.( (•' .1 ! '^ ■*'.'! MACKINTOSH 910 /<•'♦■ ' 1 .. 1 1 I ' t I ) Contract. No. l'>, and 'Iciiilrrlng ireiiornlly — Aii«'K*'oU." 13393. It was something before thtit ?- -'i (js ; in fact I con.sidcroil it AvjH my duty then, in relaiion to the virciini^^'.utices (!xi- dated 8l!i of May, 1879 ?— The report of the Committee ? 13397. Yes, the report of that Committee ?— Well, thiit may be r-o. 13398. It opened in the Committee Room the 27th of March, 1S79, and on 9th of April, 1879, Mr. Haggart appears to be asking question- on the subject, and on the 16th of April the Committee are still sitting- and asking questions? — I think it was on or about that time I had the conversation with Mr. Ilaggart about it. 13399. Was it on or about that time that you got the $12,000 notes from Mr. Whitehead ? — Homo time about the Tith ; I thiidt it was the 1.5th. It was about the 9th that I spoke to Mr. lliiggart. I think It was the dtiy after he commenced to ask questions that J spoke to hint. 13400. After you spoke to him ? — Yes; in the wtiy I have detailed in my statement. 13'40l. You think you did not get the notes until jibr^ut the 1.5th ?— No ; I think not, somewhere there. I was lookittg that up on puri)Oho to see. I said in my evidence on Saturday, 1 think, I stated it was before. I may have stated it was before J spoke Uj Jlaggurt. 13402. Of course while you are giving cvidenco now your prcsctit recollection is of more value than your j)revious recollection : is Lhtit. your recollection now ? — That is my recollecti(jti now. 13403. That shortly after the 9th you spoke to Mr. Ilaggart. aial you spoke to him before you got thOiC notes?— Ves. 13404. You think it is possible then that _^,ou mentioned Iltiggart'.s name at the time you got the notes? — It \vas altogether jiossible tlmi 1 did mention his name, but I htive no recollection o( mentioning it af the time I received the notes; but Mr. Whitehead fre(|uently refertO'l lo members of the Committee who were pressing (juestioTis as to the details of his work. 13405. At that time when you got those notes you told him that yoii wanted the notes to use, did you not? — 1 do not i-emember exactly the conversation, or what I told him; I said I wanted tliose notes to ttst' and my impression is I said — I do not know u» I entered into any very lengthy conversation \. ■*h him on the subject, because wo had somo talk before, and I do not ^•c.iemborthe conversation, but I rememboi- tolling him thereat that timo. /r just thedti}' after — some time after I got the not'js — my having btaced : "If 1 do not uso those notes I will give them back to you, " bee -: 'f. I found, and \ comrncMfod to think, I could not uso ftny more of his notes; that I had enough of them afloat. -Tlf!T fUl MACKINTOSH Icroil it e being licli the ;art was not say t Hay as uted 8iii iiy be >;<>. eh, ISTlt, questions ill Bittini; had the i)00 notes ; was the [ think it to him. detailed 15th ?~ in purjjoso id it was ur present 1 : is ihut. Lri^arl. ai.'l Ilaggai'l's JHsible tiial ])ning it at ly retorie'l Is aw to tlie L lliat y<»u (xactly the >teri to use into any had some iremomboi- 1 after I got will give |ik, I could loat. 13400. AVhile you wero gcttiii;:; them do yon ine:iii?~.\o; Iwo or three days altorwardw \vh(!ri I saw what 1 could do and t'wund that even the last note 1 got frotii him I could not use it, and I ("jin;noneed to think 1 might as well giv(^ them liaek to him, aiid the reason I cannot ]>ositivoly' swear to tiie ri(^les being given on the 15th of Apiil, was that thoy changed tlie dates hc often that I would bo afraid to swear posi- tively that that wa-- the date. 13407. The snbstaiH'e of Mr. Whitehead's evidence is this : that while that Committee was sitting, ami while you and he knew that Mr. Haggart was " pressing (iue-.liotis," as you call it, that you camo to him and obtained §12,000 in notes, .'inij left the impression liy your maimer ur by what yon said, that the etl'ect of liis giving them would be that the proceelMigK in the Committee would be more fiivourable to hit i than if he did not give these notes ? — No ; well, if that was the imprjs- sion it is a false inipie.ssion. I can ])ositively swear that 1 never in- uiu- ated to Mr. Whitehead that I was going to buy any one, or was going to pay any one oi- even hUgge>led to him that there was anything wrong. Ho frc [uently naid little things that 1 took no notice of at all. 13408. If ho hai 1- iulliK-acv* wiiiiiiic.i.r.s ijii- pi(s;ii)ii I hilt wll- lli'NS Cll.|lllll'"j Ihi- .♦l-'.O II ill IH.tl'S wMIl I In; v.cw ol iii.'ikliit; till' art lull ol Ilir tNiiiiiullti'i' iiinn fuviiiiialile to liliii, II ('{tisu iin- |ir>',sKluii. Siilislanr' ol I'liii- viTNation In wlilcli Wliiti')i<'uil n).'rfi'(l to iiay Un- imtiN lor .ilJ.iKH) on conilltliin of lilt' n({i'«'«-iiH-iit t,o t;i VC WltlK'NS II hliarc In work on Mi't'liitiiM A aiMl It ItvliiH kI^<-'U In Kpliimirj or >nir.li, |H7H, wlinj Wlilii'lcail wuN ti'i'.'lt'rinn for seel i(>,is A anil H \\'.\ iicsH iiiulor- Hlood i|i.'^ rlrciilii- KtnncoK v.uro M--\ MACKINTOSH 912 I »!>..! I • . ♦ r ^ I ' Contract No 1.1, and Trnilcrliig Kenrrally— AllrK(-4l iiiipro* licr inlliifiictu In Mny, Wliito- lii'ild told wlliicss tlinf. his linaniMul jMisltlon was ■'all rlKht," hut that if prcssod hy all Ills (M'editors they inljiht uft ■ontrapl out of his hand. ' Witness's Im- pression in Mav, iS7!t, roKardlntc 1 Whltelu'iufs iiDaneluli>ositiun Tliat ho WHS all riKht liiiancially iHit pushed. IlPasons why ■witness did not think that White- liead would have to pay a honus to get In with the oontnu'tors on arc t Ion 21. 1341fi. Wlien was it?— That was some time in August. At tliat tirin' 1 had hoard of the amalgamation botweon Mr. Whitehead, P^^wer ,v Grant and some others, and that thoy were in fact going to Iniy Mr. Whitehead out, or that ho was going togct their section or interest uinl amalgamate vith the retii(l«riUK lago would bo iill on tlioii' side; tliat they wdiild have Jiccoss i(» their An'«'>j«'«i'iB»irro- work which tl.oy haoiiei'eo which Ml. Wndleiie.il hail of lh<' wuk ih' n- h)i' years hel'oi'e . cuii- neqiiently, i think ihero wus a inuluiil advantage to be derived fioiu t. les, yuu did refuse, accordnig to your oviuenee on sjiturdav c uu-ni,u>ti\\o - I said it was rather unfair to mo to do so without •■•■■ -"-" t..inuM(.ne tiuni writing. 13426 now con giving me some inlcii'st III the tVlMlI ol WIllK' loid olitalnln^ . Docs not that amounl to a refusal to give it ui), e.xcopt on a f"iiiraci loi dition f — VVeil, 1 never said tliat I would not give uji the notes. 13427. You said, the other day, you would decline to do so, unless you got a written agreement? — f*ut it that way if you like. I remem- ber there was no refusal on my part, because In; made the proposition and seemed anxious, and consequently 1 had no reason to refuse. I remomljer saying to him 1342S. Really, Mr, Mackinto>li, you forget what you say. Your evidence wu-. in substance this: that when he proposed to tear up the old agreement, you said it would not be fair to you, because you would have nothing to show, and you iv(iuired him io do something else, and that condition was to become the I'eal, as well as the nominal, promisor on the.se notes? — No; he did mjt say : " yuu mu^t give me notes." — 13429. I said that the condition was that he was to become in sub- stance the promisor of the notes ? Yes. 13430. And you made that a condition to the tearing up of the old K.ason why wit- bond; now I understand you to say the roasori why you did not give V|''vt%\7)'"hP h"mi up the bond without any new consideration was this : that you had been led to believe he was likely to enter into some contemplated arrange- ment with these other n\en? — Yes. 134.il. And now you say it was not only (hat he was to have a share in theirs, but the}' were to have a share in his? — There would be two or three statements made as to what the probabilities wei-e, and 1 could not at that time know whicli wasconect. I had reason, and substantial reason, to believe that some amalgamation w.-is to take j)lace, but in what way I could in)t tell, and the I'ael tiial Mr. Whitehead came to me and wanted rao to annul tlie agreement strengthened my imj)ression that there was something that he was not tolling me. 13432. Did you wish us to uiider.^t;uid the other diiy that you looked forward to his making an arrangement, which would b.j of bemdit to himself, with tho^e other parties who had got sections A and H? — Precisely. 13433. And it was because you had that iiitoresi yuu wished lo get 812,000 ?— Precisely. 13434. You say now the arrangement which you contemplated as possible under the circumslunc.es was thi« • tiiat besides liis getting a share in (heir new contract ho was giving up his interest in his old contract — is that right ? — Besides getting a share ? .4-i t ' MACKINTOSH 914 Contract. Wo. 1 5« aiKl T<;ii'»«'" I'acinc Kulwav west ot Lake Superior, tliere appears on paii^o 120 a wiiitehcad got report ot Mr. Sandford Fleming : he mentions that the contractor for «'".^'"<^'"" P'*"'- section 15 applied for an advance of $100,000 to enable him to carry on the work; lli.it Mr. Smith gave it as his o[>inion that the Govern- ?nent would not only be |)erfectly safe in advancing the sum, but that it would be expeilient, and good policy to do .so; and a copy of Mr. Fleming'a rejiort is attached, by which it will be seen that he recom- mended an advani^e, but not to the extent strongly advised by Mr. Smith, in.stead of 8100,000 his recommendation was 640,000 — that appears to have been in May, 1878 : now, with those tacts before you, do you say wbetlier you took any ])art in these negotiations or not? — No; 1 was away at that time — away the whole summer for two or throe months. 1 was only home on Saturday. 13449. Have you been interested at any time on any other tran.s- Nevorsouniitor action connected with the Canadian Pacilic Railway besides those any works^tun- ihat you have dci-cribed? — Xo ; 1 have not been interested in any of the iiorea for on n •:' ., , . , Canadian Tacltto racihc luiil way contractus. Kaiiway, save . . tlio.so U-nderecl 13450. Did you at one time pro])ose to obtain or obtain any share roiiiyWiiiteiieacU in a tender made lor any of the works besides Lhose of Mr. Whitehoatl's ? — No, not a dollar. 134')!. AVa-^ it intended, so far as you know, that you were to be a partner in Bowie & McXaughton's tender? — I never had a word with them. I think I was away at the time. I was away a great deal at the time that work was going on, down in Montreal, and 1 never had any interest with them. They never asked me; but anj'thing they would have asked me to do I would have done. They did not ask me. 13452. Did you do nothing to obtain an interest? — No. 13453. You have no interest in the contract in any way ? — No ; 1 have no interest in any railway contractor any branch of the public service. I am not interested in any. 13154. Is there any other matter connected with the Canadian Pacific Railway which you can state to us by way of evidence ? — Nothing that I can state by way of evidence, except general hearsay. Nothing in connection with the Pacific Railway that I know of. -■«n •Iambs (^'ooi'ER, sworn and examined : COOPER. B\j the Chairman: — Pur«'im*e at 13455. Where do you live?— In Montreal. TemieriiiK. 1345(>. Arc you engaged in business?— Yes. 13457. What businose ? — Hardware and railway sui)i)lio8 — principally Engaged m hard- • 1 1, f I I I I J ware and rall- ruilway supplies. way 8uppiii;«. 13458. What is the name of your firm ? — Cooper, Fail man k Co. 13459. Have you had any buslnoss connections with the affairs of iho Pacific Kail way? — Yos. 58i &., COOPER 916 » '. I ■ i Purchaae of RallN- T.-IM10HIIK. 13400. What were the Hist tranauctions?— I do not rcmoml.oi exactly; I utn not prepared to say what wore the first transactions. 1 linvo no hook before mo to note what it was. 13401. What iK the first that you rememher ? — I remembei' the larger tran.saetions. 13462. VVhicli of those?— The wpikc.s, bolts and rails. 1 would not bo prepai'ed to say that they wore the first tratisactionw. 13463. 1 mean the first that you remember? — I lomomber Hup])lyin<,^ the Governmoiit with .s])ikes, steel rails, bolts and nuts. Coutrni't No. 8. 134(!4. Was there a distinct contract for these articles whicli you now mention? — On bolts and nuts there was; but the other transaction for rails we vvore acting as agents for the Mersey Iron and Slcol Co.; we were rei)rehenting the Mersey Steel and Iron Works in our trans- actions with the Government. 13465. You mean that the property that was sold in that transaction did not belong to you ? — No. 13400. They belonged to some other firm ? — We wore acting for the Mei'sey Co. I'i467. Who composed your firm at the time that you entered into that transaction ? — If I knew the date of the transaction 1 could tell you. i really did not look up these matters or make any preparation at all. 13408. When were you informed that you would likely be questioned about it to-day ? — Some day last week, 1 think it was. I was not in- formed of the nature of the questions I would be asked, so I could not make any preparation. 1340!). Do you remember the fact that the Government issued advcr- tisomonts inviting tenders for steel rails, some time in the fall of 1874? — I remember the fact of seeing the advertisement in the western papers. T happened to be in Toronto at the time, and T think I saw it in the Globt; but I would not be prepared to swear whether it was in 18*73 or in 1874. 13470. Do you remember that the time foi- receiving tenders \va- extended by a subsequent advertisement ? — Yes, I saw that. 13471. Do you remember whether you tendered under the subsequent advertisement ? — It might possibly be that we did, but I have no recol- lection ; I happened to bo away from home. Does not know 13472. Do T understand you to say that you think you did not tender werl; put fu"beforo "P '^^^ ^^^' ^''"^ named by the subsequent advertisement ? — I could not second advertise- say whether wc tendered before. I do not know \vhether there were two applications or two tenders wont in, or whether they received tenders on the first advertisement. 13473. I have not yet spoken of the time or occasion when the first advertisements wore punlished, my questions have been directed altogether to the time mentioned in the 8econdAv(l*erti80|nent ; that was as appears by the Return to Parliament the mk 0©i«Ser,'l874 : now, 1 am asking whether you put in a tender within the time named in the later advortisoraent ? — Yes. Reinr'inbers Heeint; ndverttse- nientsfor Kteol rails. RejMonibors that the i.inp for re- oelvhig tenders extendcti by a Bubsoiiuent ad- verHsoment. Put in a tender witbln time nam- ed in advertise- ment of 8th of October, 1874. 917 COOPER .ranHactiuri ^ndors \vii> l*nrpti«iir KnllN- 1.U74. At llu.' tiino niimudfur locoiviii^ tenders in the liUci- :l(lvel•li^c•- '■•■•"'•''''"«• mcnl, can you say wlio composed your firm '! — That is in Odohur '( <'"M«rn«i Xo. 8. 1H4'7.'>. No i J think the hitci' time was the Kith Novcinlwi? — I frmM not positively toll you, I could not ]iositivoly swear ; Iml I think there wore three mendiors of the tinn, though 1 would not l)e positive. 1 would not ho p')sitive whether there were three members ofihe lir-tn at that date. 1 could not be sure. 1 could not tell at least on oath. 1 would not like to bo |)i!sitivo. 13471). Without making it a mattei' of eert.ainty, will you stato your impression — we can, perhaps, ascertain moi-o detiiutoly at'lerwardh 'i —I thiidx that 1 should suppose that Mi'. Mackenzie — Mr. (-'liarles Mac- kenzie — was a member ot the firm at that time. 1 suppose so. I thiid< BO. I know he had been talkini^ about retiring, but I do not know Avhether he served us with his notitieation before that or af'tei-; thai i-^ the i-eason 1 have liosilaLion about saying so. \Vith<»ut looking it over, 1 could not answer }()U exactly ; in tact i atn nearly always the absentee of the lirm. J used to be on the road most of the time and I am not 'as well po»led perhaps as 1 ought to be. 13477. Look at the tender now handed you, and please say in whone wilting it is — the written pait of it? — Yes, I can (h) that ver\' ou«ily ; that is Mr. Fairman's sigtuiture. 134Y8. NVhat is the .signature to it?— The signature i.s per Ooopor, Fairman & Co., Agent, Montreal." That is the Mersey Sieel an«l fron Co., and signed " Cooper, Fairman & Co., Agent." 1347!'. Do you see atttichetl '.o that tender a letter signed hy CoopiM- Kairman itCo. ? — Yes; th""< is a letter dated November I4tli, 1871. 13480. Who is the writer (^f that ?— M, Fairman. 13481. That tender which you looked at is, I think, for delivery at Montreal ? — Yes, the printed one. 13482. In fact it alludes to delivery somcwhiire ? — To delivery on the wharf at Montreal. Yes, I see that. 13483. There is another tender for delivei-y at other points, iJuluth or Thnnder Bay : please look at that and say how that is signed ? — ^'es, I see it is to deliver at Duluth or Thunder Bay ; that is signed by Cooper, Fairman & Co., at Montreal. 13481. That does not pui-port to bo (Jii behalf of aiu)ther person or firm, does it ? — No ; 1 should judge not. 13485. It purports to boon their own account : T am not asking you what understanding there was between your firm aiul any other party — I am asking you if the tender purports to be on behalf of your tirm or not? — It looks like it. 13486. In whoso writing is the envelope avldressed attae.hod to it? — That is Mr. Fairman's writing. 13487. Is it upon one of these tendons that you undorstand your tii-rn obtained a contract for i-ails, in the name of the Mersey Co. ? — We tendered on behalf of the Mersey Co., and got 20,000 tons, I think it was, of rails. I do not know whether it was 20,000 ton.i or not, but we got a considerable quantity. Colll'l nut, piisl- t Ivrl.v MWfiir who <'lllll|»lsl'(| lllf ilrm, N()VfMiit)or, l^7l. t 'tn\\'\ not Mii.v uliclhcr at Uiiil t line there «'.(< \ui \ OOOPER 918 Fiuxhane of HmHn— Contract No. II. Fulrmnn tlie cor* reBpondlng inem< ber of linn. 13488. lliul you any pari in any other tender bosidow these iwo whiclj 1 Imve mentioned to you ? — Yes, wo had. 13489. What other? — We had ; there was another quantlt}- of rjijls which wo supplied on hohalf of Naylor, Ben/on & Co. 13490. That was not awarded in consequence of any of the tondorH at this time ? — I cannot Kay. 13491. Do you romombor whether you took any part alone, althou^^'h on behalf of the firm, in the correspondence upon the suliject of any of the»c rails ? — No. 13492. On page 37 of a Return to the House of Commons, a printed copy of a letter, purporting to be written by you alone, apprurs : pU-aso look at it? — Possibly ; 1 do not remember. That is a letter dated — that is the time Mr. Fairman was in England. 134!*3. It was on the subject of those rails, some part of them, was it not? — I will read it as I have^motten that there over was such a lettei- written. I seejtis Mr. Pai » ^^n" hore ; it is a misprint, it should have boon from Mr. Q . orrnnn . 13494. Can you say which member of your firm usually took part in the negotiations or the correspondence about any of these rails, bcinf^ at Ottawa at the time of that covrespondence or negotiation? — Mr. Fairman. 13495. Were you here taking any part in any of those doings ? — No. ■WlliioHs travi'l- llnik; inomber of flrtn. mg Cannot say how •when' or when he llrHt heard of contract. ); .- ♦ 1349 in Montreul. I think 1 received a letter ill Montreal to that ell'ect. 13504. From whom? — From Mr. xMackenzio — from Mr. Charles Mac- kenzie. 13505. Could you give any information now ahout the date of that letter? — No; 1 could not. it just occurs to me thai >uch is the case, but 1 do not remember the date. 135ot). Have you the letter now, if you rei'cived such a letter? — I do not know ; L do not ihiidc it. 13507. Why do you not think it ? — liecauso it wr^uld have probably come to me. My own personal letters I generally lore uj), but lelteis to the tirm I generally kei)t tiled away. 13508. But you do not think that that etler would come to the tirni as well as to you ? — Xo ; 1 do not thiidx so. 135(11). Why do you think it woulil come to you alone? — Hecauso he wont in with me tirst, before Mr. Fairman becarne a partner. 13510. Mr. Fairman carne into the partnership after him? — N'es ; Mr. Mackenzie started with me, or at lea.sl apsisted me to start the buf-iness in 187- ; and then, when I loolc Mr. Fairirian in, 1 found I could not run the business alone, and then Mr. Fairman enterc!. .tlHrl«i'il#.i« Milli Ill-Ill (tf <^«i)i|H-i> KAlr- itiiiii A- t'o. In Montri'iil WlliMl lie llrsi li' iiril Unit t 'Imi-lcs .MiK^ki'ii- /.li' wLslied to IflilT. ThUilcs litliT li'orn Cliarlo, Muclii'iizli' uoiild luiVCCOIMc 1(1 liita lUM'soiwilly. Wit In I in Will ;it end ol' J I'll 1'. lUit iiotilicdtioii of withdrawal Ih < '('toiler or Nov- omlxM'. Means by ui.d ofi year tlu' 1st of .January. 'M i.'t COOPER 920 ■fif -: PiirchiMe of KallM- Rdnttoii of C r«ln<'k«ii'/.l« with tliiii or Coo|»>i> i<'nli'« iiinn A <'»• Vnrtitcistilp priil- »(l .tlst IX'ceiiilti'r, 1K7I. Till' t'DIHlltlollS of )iiirti)('rslil|) 111 Hrrii ol Ciiopi r, KmIi'mihii iV ( o. 'I'liliiks >fackpn- /|i' as sppclal |Ki,l ncr couhl Imvi' dictated (lie IcllllS (III wliicli lie woulil roMi'c. I ' l,:ril!*. Aii(i it woiiM 1)0 tlu' :ilsl. Duct^iilKir fMIowitig tliiit, that your |»iirtii('islii|) oiiilcsd f — No, Isl .hiiiujiiy, 1H75. l.*}5-'0. Do voii say tlieii lliat your ])artnerNliij) oiidod on tlio ;nsL iM-iMi.bor, l.^Tl'i'— Yfs, 187i. K{5'1. it oinioti ill ohcvliciifo to tlu' provioiis notification ? — It oiidod on the pfi'vioiis notiticiiticui tint it shniild lio snviM'od at oiu-c. hut of coui'so wo could not do it until wo (dosed our books ; wo C(ujld possibly art'an^o it tluui, but wo coiil 1 not anan^'O it in Octobo: when our husi- m sH was goin;;- on. Wo could not stop all our business to take stock and clo^o ouf hooks; of coui>o it wtuild bo itnjxwsiblo until tho end of llio ycsir. l.{r)_2. l)o you know wlielhor by tlio te^rli•^ of your piU'tnoisliip with •Ml- Ma(dll< l;{531. I want you to tell me if vmi lemomher any iiiiderstaiidinL: **l'"il"""'' , thcie was between you ? — I do not see the (niestion. it you can pin it t*iiii iirm .h- in another way probably I can nee it eleurly. m'."!''*'* *..'*'' 13rKi2. 1 wi^h to know whether when you wont into paruMn'>hip Wkh i-'xIhk lUo .,| >t ,11 I 41 I ' .1 ' 111 , .1 |ll>l'ttltMSlll|l villi Willi Mr. (iianes Mackenzie, tiicri* was any uiiih'f>t;iiiniiiu: a^ |i> ijnr |,,,,.|,.s m„,.|<,.|,. iiroportion ol his canilil that should lie willuliawii by hiin in case lie I'l' 'i" uncler- i ' , „,, 1 * !• HtnnilJDi; iiH III I'otired .''— I here was nu understamhiig. wiiai ik.iiiom <.r Ills iMpital siiDiiJiI 1.3r).33. Then was it a question I'or negotiation at thsit time as to how '"' witiKin.wu ii much of the c.pital it would bo liuhl for him to take out ? — Xo ; I merely stated in wriliiig to him, it I lemcmber right, thai all I woiiM .Miickfri/W.- ivtlr- iindertako to pay him back would be the amount th;it he had put in, IIi|)"t.ii'. that is all \ would u dertake under 'he cireumstanci s - thai be ■>liniiM take out what be had put in as his agreement. 135H4. If you had made two or tliiec time- the amount ot' your original capital, would it iioi be lair that be >hould take uul nioii' than he had put in ? — Not under those cireumHtaiiees. 13535. Why? — On retiring just on his own opinion ji man c.-Minol do that without having to sullcr some loss. 1353fi, Suppose instead of making a considerable addition to your Pocm nni suppimo capital you bad lost a poitioii of it? — Yes; but I do not siipjiose any- H"' 'i'"' i"-> • thing ol the kind. 13.')37. Mr. Mackenzie was under that im|)ression ? — Mr. Ma< l; years. I think ihe U-rm was iiour or six years, perbap.s seven. 1 know it is something about that — a little over four years — between four and six. 13542. That time had not expired when the dis.solution took place? — Xo. 13543. Are you willing to answer this : whether, in y^ur opinion, at the time of the dissolution with Mr. .Mackenzie the arrangement that was ma le insured him a gi eater benelit than it the partnership had heen wound up and he had taken his share at that time? I do not insist upon your an>weiing this (|Uesiion, because I do not (eel ipiiie sure that the affairs of your partnership are, properly speaking, within the matters pertaining to the I'aeific Railway, although I think they have been m:ide so by rumour and as.-;ertion and it is for the purpose of dealing up the.>e things that f am giving you this ojiportuiiity. 1 .'J ; a: 1 U' '■ , f 'im' COOPER Fur«tliaM< of JtelntlftH of C. **n<'ki-iiali' Witli llrin ol Coopt-ri Knlr* ■iitin A III' Niild tdliliii : " Voii can Imvo your ciipilal, and tlion' in no man kiiowH aiiytliliiK »li()ut our all'aIrN «'.\ri'|)t riiy pardicr and iiiynelf." Falrinan went to KiiKlaiid Decciri- iHir, 1S71. Corresponded In name or tlrni with Bucklng- bani. Secretary to MinlNtcr. iitii only Uh|litioii him that all Ik- foiild lal<()out— il ho loliioil ho could have hin ca|)ital. I uotdiiMl him lo thai tdlocd. IMrii'l. A:'<) you mid')2. And what time (lid he return ? — In March. I'iiftftl^. Then during that tinuiif any correspondenco took place by your lirm it would be by yourself would it not? — By myself. I.'>ft54, And afl(fr Mr, Kairrnan's return who would do ilie correspond- iri^f? — Mr, Kuirmaii pi-obabiy woiUd doit. Not in every case, but generally. lH^)^>t>. Did you correspond in the name of the firm with ATr. M'Krkinghafti, tho Hocrctiiry of the Minister ? — In the name of the firm ? ]'.ir}M. VcM V — I cotdd not say lor certain. l.'{r)r»7. Did you in your own name about any of this rail matter or bolts?— -I do not recollect. Nothing In mem- orandum or book to Inl'orm him 18558, f>o you think you have any means of informing yourself, either by bouKh or i»U)»er8, m to the time when you got iulormutiou of i J)23 OOOPER matter or tliih fontriua lieitig Ust lu you, or vvlu^n you i^ot tlu' Ih^t noliricaliori (hilt Mr. Mjuknii/.if wisliufi to retiro? — No. l.'JfiSU. Cum you isiiy whicli of iIioho mattern was rirnt comiiiiitiiiutod to you — tho fact of your ^ottiut? tlio contrait or tho fail lliat .Mr. Mackonzio wiwliotl to I'ldiro? — I cannot say. 1 could not placo tlicin. ]t Ih ho long ago. iyr)<10. Has tliiH matter not boon (li.scuHsod l»y you atul Mi'. Fairinan and Mr. Macken/,ic siiuo those events, and with refereruH' to the rolu- tivu d:ito8? — It was lusver spoUoti of. 135G1. Nor written alM)ut ? — Nor written ahout. lHr)(j2. i'lnd have you taken no means lu refresh your iniinoi y on those suhjects ? — No, I have not taken much interoHt in the matter after it went through. iJusinoss matters come heforo us everyday, and our minds are fully occuj)ied from time to time. 135GJi. Then you .\ay that since those events have happened you Iiavo not taken j)ains to refiosh your minds aw to the relative dates? — The dates of all our letters are there. Ki5<14. 1 am sju-aking of the dates of these two events only — one tlic awaitling of the contract for rails to your firm, the other the notitica- tion by Mr. Mackenzie that he was to retire? — No ; I have never Bpoken of it, and the thing has never occurred to me for ^ears. 135»!5. Do you romemher, while you wei'o in Toronto, teiling any ])ersoii before you knew Mr. Mackenzie wished to retire, that you had got the conti-act ?— No. If we had got it 1 might have told somebody. 135i!G 1 am asking you whether you lemembcr the circumstance? • — 1 do not remember the cir(U instance. 135 west, that you hal got lie contract, or hearing it by letter from Charles Mackenzie ? N'o ; I do not. 1 got no such letter. 135(;S. Nor telegram ?— Nor telegram. 135(II». Nor any such commuiucation as far as you know? — As far as I know I can sincerely say I do not recollect anything of the kind. I could not believe it except it was put before me — the facts. 13570. I 8uj)j)ose you ai-e aware that there have been a groat many rumours about all tfiis sort of thing ? — Yes; that is why 1 lia\e not read up on tho .subject at all. I heard so much of it. 13571. In these negotiations between the Department and your firm, did you take an aitlive purl, or did you leave Mr. Fail man, when he was in the country, to do the negotiating? — Principally Mr. Fail man. 1 may say altogether Mr. Fairman when he was at home. 13572. Boirides the contract for materials, such as rails and bolts, did you enter into any contract for transportation? — Ves. 13573. Do you remember whether in that matter you were repie- senting some olliei" lirm, oi- was it entirely on your own account? — I cannot say. Mr. Fairman might be able to answer that ([uestion. 13574. Did j'our firm own any steamboats at any time, or have you been awarded the contract upon tho boats of other firms, if ^-ou did order into any contracts for transportation ? — We do not own any boats. 13575. Have you owned any during this period ? — No. Pnnl.n-r nr HiilU Kriiilloii uf V, .M IK' k •■•■/, to tvltli nriii «ir C' uiitn A i>*»- vvlnii hn « 'I Id- loriiiiillon 'if coil* t I'llCl llll Vll K I'.: 'II li't iir Miicki>r f.\i''i> •U'li'i'itiliiutliJii U> P'llri". llaH tiilo-ii no irii'iiiiM Ut n-lic-li hjh iiii'tinir.v. Till- "-I'M '«)ii why III' to liilor'n lilriisi'K as to till' fiiotM WUH lliat li,Ol)() — and found il iiiipos-iblo to get our money and get paid; and he go. into a p."''tly tighl. place up in Winni- peg there — I tbrget the nionlh it w.is— Init last, litll tlu; Ontario Hiuik took tl»e whole of h's estimate and. kci.t it. lie guvc^ m •, an or ne;.',oii!i(ing f)(i(brl;inl. 13570. Wore you pre'sent at that proposition, or tit any time when iL was repeated between them? — I was pi'esent, yes; and Mr. Young was present, and fJeorge iirown ot the Ontario Hunk was jtrosent, and Mr. Whitehead, and i think Dr. Sehuitz — I iiin not sure. I propo-ed several names to him. 1 ])roposed Mr. Rogers, aitd I proposed .Manning .\: McDonald and Fraser & (riant, and suggcs(«!d :d] ihe-e names to hol|» him out of hiy difficulties. My interest was with Whitehead, to try and carry him through. 13580. Do you Ihink it was your suggeslion ol (hose names which led linnlly to their being taken in a;> partners?— I thiid< not. 135S1. Oo you think they had been suggest ed to him by someone else? — I think that the negotialions had been going on f(>r inoiith- before that in Ottawa here, when they mot here in Ottawa in July. 13582. When who met? — Mr. Whiteheud and Fi-az-er met last July — 1 mean the July before that. 13583. There have been rumours that Mr. Whitehend was rather incliiifcd to take t'lom in as partners on accoiiril ol llie iden that some member of the Government wi.-iheil it : do you know anythiiiif about that ar.imgement, oi- that reason ? — 1 shoiild think it would he quite unfounded. There would be no Ibiindalioii lor anything of that kind. It was a question of dollars and cents with Mr. Whitehead, who was going to help him out of his diiliciillies, I think thoy wcM-e ilio only men who wore willing to take hold ol him under the ditHcullies in which he was. 13584 Do you remember that the arrangement was brought aboiii ;us a businoss arrangement, oi' was it in deferences to some pressure ? — Oertainly as a busino.'^s arrangement — purely us a businoMM arrange- ment. 13585. Wore you taking an active part in \\n\ tiogotiatiors, being such a largo creditor ? - Yes. 13586. Js that the only reason that you look an active part in (lio negotiations for the partnorshi)' ;' — My only reason was being a creditor to a large amount, and another was that Mr. Whii lioiid was no financier 925 COOPER noH whicii — not boin^ uhlc to coniluct his biivincss tilorio willioiil u^sislutK■(.'. — llial was m}' inij)i'ossii;!;, timi, lie \viii> not. 13587. \V('i(! yon i('|tieHoiiliii:^ any | owiler company at any lime? YCH. 185H8. Was it in ''onnoction witli this powdor company tliat y^w j.H(l this chiim ? — Vex. ('»itlin«( Vo. 1.5. KrnMfr A ,i,,|- (•ornpHny yscit principally up tlioro wi.iih w'.s press- \uii Wlilti'lieii.l. a TrhMitl <»r WliltelK-ail. l.'^,59n. Mr. Maciiintosh speaks of ii claim of somo powdor conipany in whif.'ii ho speaks of a Mr. {Joopc acting against Mr. VVhitoIicatl : wa.s that you ? — Yes. l,^5m. Had \oii interviews with Mr, Mackintosli on tho suhjcct?--! Aiirjf.«i im pro- think so. •"'• '»"•"••"«■• 135H2. Do you rcmomher conversations or tho HubNtanco of them at Hd.i int.rvi.'WH those interviews r — IhciHuhjc^ct generally was Mr. Whitehead h dilii- i„ ,,.«iii(i to cultios — unable to in(;et lii.s payments. m.'.'i" ''.'.".''"''' 13503. Do you remember what part Mr. Mackintosh took in any ol NiM'Uiiito«ii»«« tiioso conversations?— I looked upon him as a friend ol Mr. Whiloheairs \vhi{"i»r*d--' and one who had a ginsat interei't in his welfare, and would try to assi.st him out of iiis diniculties. He would give him whati.vor assistance he ))()^siI»ly could ; eitiier endorse his paper or lielp him through ; ho seemed to be .ilways beliind and always in difficulties, unablo to take up liis paper when it was due. The man was •■ illing enough iml tievor seemed to be able. 13504. You mean Mr. Whilehoad? — Yen; Mr. Whitelieud was liouest enough, but novor seemed to be ablo to pay, 13505. Was there any proposition on your part, or on the part ol' Never luidtuie!!- your firm, to ai .-est Mr. VVhileluiad on his leaving for Chicago?— I ilo 'vymtohetur not think so, T slioi Id doubt it very much ; wo would iuive no interest ain'stci. in doing thai, 13590. .\co you awnn- of any such ])ropo-> ami cany liim aloiisf, bolioving him to bo an honost man, but not able i. inanigo liis business, and if we could got any ono in with him thm couhl manage his business for him they c.onld carry the contraci through. I woukl have been an enemy of Mr. Whitehead to do thai and 1 had no wish to injure him, but to try and get our money ji i could. l.'JOOl. Is this company which you represent known us the Manitoba Powder Works? — Yes. 13(!02. in speaking to Mr. Ma(dvintosh upon this suhject of Mr. Whitehead's indebtedness to you did you Hnd it necessary to withiiold your intention from Mr. Mackintosh or were you outspoken on Uie subject? — 1 was vei-y outspoken to Mr. Mackintosh, believing that lu* woidd tell Mr. Whilehotul and force him to come to terms with mc ; that is, by taking some of the notOH out of the way that were past due. 13008. Did you mean to exjiross yoiii- intention to .Mi'. Mackinlo^li ? — 1 might have exjiressed my intentions to him. i;{(i04. Do 3-011 mean that you wished to express more than \onr intentions to him ? — I migiit have done so, but 1 do not tliink I ever (lid express myself in that way. ll'tJOr). I did not understand 3'ou to sa}- that 3'oii did so express it : i will read n'ou what he has said: ''1 was further iidbrmed that liio Manitoba Powder Works intended to capias him if he left the city next vlay for Chicago I'n route to Winnipeg. Having -ea-on to believe some of tliose rumours to hit substantial!}' fouiuhMJ, aiid k-iiovvinijf thai Hiich events would prove disastrous to NFr. Whitehea''. ; " and tlien lie goes on to ex])lain w iiat took place, l do not know that he alhiijes o a conversation with you 01' any one else? — 1 should say in llie face of that, that I did not say so, but there must have been some lutnouis lo that ctVoct. 13(3',(6. Your impression is that you did not say .so? — My impres.^ion in that I did not .say so. if I did, 1 onl^- did it for the object that Mr. Mackintosh should use greater pres^ul•e in trying to get him to settle oiu' account ; but it would be quite an absurd thing to think of to do ncver- iholeSB. i always believed Mr. Whitehead was perfectly honest and tried to y.uy, and would pay me every cent as .soon us he could, but my desire vvils to try to get him to reduce his account as soon as he could, because it was accumulating. J mi^ht have explained to him in eoii- voi-sat'on that I had to keep him supjjlied with explosives to keep his conti-act going, and that his account was doubling on him ovory moiitli and of course I tried to keep it down. 13607. Th there any other matter connected with the Canadian Paci- fic Koilway which you could mention by way of evidence ? — 1 do not know of anything that would be of any importance (0 you. »," ' I ' TRUDEAU. TrniiHportatloB of Kalla- t'ontractNo. SiO. ToussAiNT Trudeau's examination continued : By the Chairman : — 13608. Have you the papers in any of the matters wliich you wore not jiropared for last timo that you can offer no\v, or do you prefer to proceed with the next one? — 1 would prefer to proceed with the next. 927 TRUOEAU [i you wore Trit»>^ port n I ioit of ^'illN 1M(]00. Wl.icli is thill ?— Contract No. 10 with tho Nfoivhiuits LiiUo «""•»"">«>•-!». imd JJiviT SU'iim-liij) (Jo. It is for tho tiMiiN]»ort:ilioii ol mils I''''" rinisimMl'^V.'.'i'.'-''' Montreal to Foil VViliiiini or Diiltith. ti-cal to f iri VViUiiiiii or Puliltlj. I I'oiil I'lii'l awiircl- I'll 111 Mcrpli-iiits Lake and Mt<'am- Kliip Co. w!ii"^i' iiaiiic (Iocs nol :i!)|)('ar 111 list, ol' IrMilfis sent In I'fjiiiiisc' to mi~ WlllSfllll'lll. 13G10. Was that work lot by public cotupclition ? — Vos. 1.'{(IU. Ilavo you the udvortiscniont asking for lenilci-s ? — Yo ])roti(i rvovemlier, iS,4, sIiowh ttial one or their lenders was lor delivery at (Iciivcm-.v oi rails Montreal, at the rate of A' II 3s. sterling, and another for delivery at Duluth or Tliundei- Bay, at the rale of .£12 Os., and wharfage and liarbour dues (}>) poils payable by (loveitiment. The ditVereiice between i'ii:irtment, of the 23rd of April, Messrs. (.hooper & Kairman urged ihat ihey woie committed in the matter of charter, &c., for delivery of from 10,0')0 to 12.000 tons on Lake „ , , • m. I 111 1 -I I r 1 1 1- • 1 • Proposed loper- Superior. They also add that they will perform the additional seivice form ad.iiiional called for by the tenders for transportation received on the 19th Ajiril, i'j7a(\7(riuemeiit, and not included in their tender of November, 1874, tor the sum of 60 ami not meiitioii- cts. per ton. Messi's. Cooper A: Fairman slate, in this letter, that in iiaci8'()f'(iate"" tho matter of transporlution westwarti 'hey represent the Merchants ^''^.f^''^"''"' if"*' T 1 IT.. .. 1 • !• • i- r ' 1 . /• 1 for fiO cts. extra. Lake and lliver Steamship line consisting of eighteen first class pro- jiollors. The case having been fully considered, and in view of tho fact that Mr. Samuel did not appear to be himself the proprietor of suitable vessels, or to be representing any poreon or company having the appli- TRUDEAU 928 f ■..^■■"' TraiiHiM) r( n t ion or HnllM- ascd upon Hii.v Invitation in Hiiy advert Isi!- nii'iit. (!(>oper, Fairniaii & ('(I. '8 offer the lowest lait one. How a favourable off'-r was refused. I ajici:s iiocossaiy to )toi'fofiii llic services, ti rt'port to Cnuiieil \va^^ pro |)ai'(;mnufn(lin-" that the w n k h^a\vai',U.(| to Mt.'s.'>f,~i. Coopor \- Fainii:iii on behalf of the Me'eliaiir; Lalco atid lii\-ei' 8l.eam'>hip lino tiL ^f!.20 jtor ton, on the condilioii.s naineil in tln^ adveiti.Neinont. Tlte Ordof-inC'oiiiicil wiis approved on tlie .'Mih April IHt') ; Ml'. .Samuel was inforniod oti (he 5lh May, 1S75, ihat hi- teiKh'r wa^ not aeiepted. I."l616. What was the extra .sei'viee fi»r which the <>0 elH. wa.s added to Cooper, Fairinaiiit Co.'h first otter?- — Handling, i)ilint?, inHiirance and whartage. l.'ifilT. Tln.'H tiiis ort'or of To )per. f'airinan iV: Co. for this tiansporta- tioii Wiis not (die of tlie tonUora whieii wore put in in an>vver to the advortiheinent 'f — No. l.'{(iI8. It was an otfor connected witli a previous tender for rails ? — Yes. 13f!19. And was that previous tender for rails in an>wei' to any atlvei'tiseinent, or was it outside of tlie terms of the advertisement which it purported to answer? — It was outside of the previous adver- ti^ement asking for rails. l.'J(!20. Then, this otVer wddeh was accepteil finally wa'^ made with out being bused upon any invitation in any advertisement : ! iindor- stiind it was prompted by Coojjer. Fairinan i*t Co. in both iiistance><, and no* by the (fovernment ? — Yes. K{H2l. Have you considered whether the offer as accepteil was better than any other offer tliat was made to the Government for tiie same subject ? — It was the second lowest. 130-2. Von mean as between Sumiul siiid Messrs. Cooper, Fairman & Co.?— Yes. 13623. riiid there not been an otTer by Perkins, Livingston, Po>t & Co. l() do this same work — an ofier maile in November, 1^71- — at a lower rate than the < no accepted, also cMipled with an offer made for rails. Here are the original tenders by Perkins, Livingston k Post, and also by Coopor, F"'airman & Co., eom])are them both and the effects of them upon this sul)Ject, and say which was the more favoui'able to the (rovernment : first, for the jairposes of this cornpiirison, leaving out the extras included in the (iO cts. ? — Messrs. Perkins, Living- ston, Post tk (yo., in a letter dated l4th November, 1874, offer to deliver rails at iHilutli, Fort William and (Jeorgian Bay instead of Montreal, at $4 pot ton in addition to the price named in their con; ract, and at $4.75 additional at Fort "^ViUiam. It is not possible for me to establish a comparison between tenders sent in by Perkins, Livingston & Post and Cooper .fc Fairmati, because I understood at the time tha^ Messrs. Perkins, Livingston iV Post intended to bring the ruil> \>\ way of New York. 13624. Do you know for whom Perkins, Livingston & Post were tendering ? — Guest & Co. 13625. Did Guest i^ Co. get any contract ? — Yes. 13626. VYlierc were the rails to be delivered ? — At Montreal. 13627. And did you not understand by this offer of theirs that the^o same rails would be taken to the points named — Dulntli and Fort William — at the extra price mentioned in their letter'' — Yes. 92r> TRUDEAU TmnwimrtRtion of KnMx — 1362S. How was it that yo i wore not ahlo to avail yoin-sclvos ot" ''*""■"*' *"*"*'** that, otlor '(• — Bucau.-io wo luul ^'jcoptod londcirt tur the delivery al Montroal. 13629. Hill instead of accopliiig teiir:"i'\\:V;o. at Duiuth than the Govoi-nment could liave got them tVom Perkins, M-'''/) "i'V* *''|';"' Livingston, rost iV Co. delivered at the same place ; for the present, ineston. I'ost, taking out of consideralioii the intention of the parties, was that tlio '* result ? — If the tender sent in hy Post k Co. in 1874, for tlelivery at Duiuth, had been accepted, it woiiM have cost less money than accej>ting the tender to Montreal in 1874, and iher letting the carriage by separate contract as was done. K}(i32. ! have understood you to say that the contract as it was let ThoGov.'imn'-nt was not by a separate understandinit, but because the Covernnient pr^Kainnan a'*' acceded to the contention of Cooper, Fairman ^*c Co., that it had been '^"•''"■''''"'' involved in the first transaction of the rails, is that right?— Vos. 13633. Then it was not a separate transaction, because it was, if I correctly understand you, the i-esult of the acceptance of the rail con- tract? — It was a claim which they urged in connection with the accept- ance of the rail contiact. 13fi34. Do you know how much advantage Cooper, Fa ivm an it Co. got by the acceptance of their rail contiact, in the way you have (lescribed, over what would have been paiil it the other tenders had ijooti accepted ? — 1 can got a statement prepared. 13635. Are we to undorstanpcr & Fairman say in their letter of the 23rd April, 1875, 136.36. Will 3^ou look at ]"Mige 31 of the Return to the House of Com moas before alluded to, and say whollier the leU«'r of Mr. Braun of the 2nd December, is the letter upon which Cooper, Fairman & Co. purport to base their claim for this transportation ? — ] think it is. ISn.'iT. Do yo'i notice that in that letter Mr. Braun informs them that their tenders made on behalf of the Mersey Steel and Iron Co. TRUDEAU 930 TrnimpnrtBtloii or RuIIn — Cutilrat ( .\o. UO. Th( odcrloilc- livi^r riillH cloarly Kfparate from the otlier by Uic Mer- Hcy ('[■:' tenders in the printed tonii irj coirect. ISG;}!^. lliivo yoti the (»rig-ii»al here? — No. 13i>3!>. Then will yon gft it for another time ? — Vos. l.'rlfiK). Will you look at the ori^^^inal torxlorsand say whether (m ij ui^ Fairman i*c Co. in iho-o tuliilli, or deliver raiU at Jhilnth ?— Yes, to Duluth. l;{(;4t. Please read the words which show the offer is made, not mi tlioir own aeeount hut on behalf of the Mersey Steel and Iron (d.-' — The woKiing ol the tender is this: " 'I'he untkMvigneil lierel)\- tenders to,()()0 ions of tho mersey Stejl and Iron Co.'h Bessemer stee' rails with a proportionate quantity ot ti.^^h-jointfl al the followitig rates." 13f»42. Ih i. beeaiiso they describe them of this make that their oil'ei is supposed to be on bobulf of that company ? Is it not an ordinal v thing with dealers to describe this make although making the otter on. their own account? Do you suppose that the Mersey Co. were teiidor- itig to deliver rails at DaJuth ? — No. 13643. Ttren in that offer to deliver rails at Duluth made on lieiiulf of the Mersey Steel and Iron Co. : is not that in fact distinct from another one attached t) it, made plainlv on behalf of the company ? — It is. 13644. Then is that offer, as you understand it, to deliver rail> .ic Dulutfa. made on behalf of the Mersey Steel and Iron Co , or is it made by Cooper, Fairman i*t Co on their own behalf? — It is only signed by (.'ooper, Fairman k Co., and probably on their own behalf, as represtinting the Mersey Si eel and Iron Co. to supply rail> ; and the Mercliunts Lake an! River Steamship Co. to carry them to l!io west. 13045. ^■ou muke use of the words "as representing?" — Yes. 13(i4<>. Do \ou meaii that they conveyed that idea in that pajiei , m that you think so fiom their reasons; of course, when you ritake uscoi the words "us representing," you mean that they h;id some authority to represent, simply otiered to lepresont, or thiit they purported to reju'esent ? — That they represented the steamship company doe.-> not appear from this tender. 13fi47. Does it appear that they represented thoMeiscy Stoel and Iron Co. from that letter, or from that tender? — Nothing more than Riot- ing it OS a brand of rail they would supply. 13648. Then do you mean that every person who tenders, and qiK^lcs that brand of rail lo be supplied, does so on beha'f of tho Mersey Steel and iron Co. ? — Not absolute y, because a persQU might tender and have rails on hand. 13649. Then why do you make this particular tender differ from other people's tenders in that construction ? — I do not make it different from other people s tenders, but 1 believe that Cooper, Fairman & Co. tentiored on behalf of the Mersey Steel and Iron Co. in this parti- :i3l TRUDCAJ Ti na«|iorlatiiiit or mwiIh— cnlar tender, l)ec;iuso on another ^lloet tliey say llicy do tt-riiler .,,4 '""'''•*' ■^■"- -"■ representing the Mersey Steel and Iron Co. 13()r>0. Do you say on another sheet, or is it :m enliiely dinVK-nt ten- der Hcnt in a ditlerent way, and tendering to deliver at a ditlcrcrtl |ilace? — It is on a separate sheet, Imt the sheets were all sent in ti>gethor. 13ti51. Sent in together in what : do you mean in one (Mivedojic ? See ilyou do not find two envelopes there, and if tlu y are not eiitir<'ly separate tenders; one for the Meisey Steel and Iron Co., and one for Coa[)er, Fairman and Co.? — Ves, they were sent in in two envelopes. 13(152. Are they distinct tenders for delivei'y at ilisliiut phue-^. ui)d '■""i" •• '"'iorman .. ,, ,•;.,. . 1 .1 A.' ' .V (<».'m tciiiirr fol- ia Ihc names ol ditlerent people r — 1 es. (i.iiN.iy at , ,, ,_„ vT . 11. 1/11. Ill iJiiliith'mit tiiaito 13()53. Now do you say that this tender for delivery at Duliiili, was on ii.iiaif i.i made on account of the Alersey Stoel and Iron (Vmiianj ?— I do not. imerco'/^'"^' ''^ 13()5i. Then do is the letter of 2nd of December, from Mr. Hraiii » MraimN ifttti r .1.1 il i 1 i' ,1 \l 01 1 11 /I iloi'H llllt lllVOlV'<* saying that because tlio tenilers ol the Mersey Steel and ii-on (o. n,,. ijivinKoniio 1 - ... - to '^ ' ' ' whose claliii una 13655. Then that contention or claim on their part is, in your 'J|,'*J||I" '•*'''" '"•* opinion, not well founded ? — It is not a good claim. 13656. Arc there any other papers about previous ma'ters which you have ready to produce to-day ? — No ; I have no other pfipern ready lavo heen accepted, involve the trivintr of the transportation of the rails "''',"'*i'"r.'^!\I'"'! "^ /-< Ti • 11 /-I r\ 1 1 ;> X' 1 rallH to ( oo|M'r, o Cooper, tairman iv Co., to Duluth r — Not neccssanly. inirnian *<<>., KwuKAL''s e.xiimination continued : By the Chairman : — 13657. Have you either the original or copy of the letter fioni Mr. ifad iiif .>nir of Bran n to Cooper, Fairman ct Co., dated 2nd of December, IH74, con- JI^',',f^'i'.,'';J'j^y["f' '■erning the acccptaiiee of their tenders? — I have a copy and I produce !«!<■» a.37 per ton respectively. The price paid to the .Mersey Co. for rails delivered at Montreal was $54.26, to which add freight contracted for in 1875 to Fort William or Duluth, $5.60 per ton, making in all 859.86 per ton. The 60 cts. per ton to-- liandling and piling, added in the case of 'he Merchants luie. is not con- sidered, as an eiiual amount would have been requiicii tor the per- formance of the work by the other party. Subequetit event» havo shown that if, in 1874, the tender m:ide by Perkin->, Livii'.-- n. Post k Co. had been accepted, the cost ot the 10,000 tons, if di'.n:red at Dnlnth, would have been decreased b}' $12 400, and ifdelivertil at Fort William by $4,900. 59,V f TRUDEAU 982 ) I ti - I Trnnii|inr(ation of Hullo - <'Ollti-n<-t No. 20. Cooper, Falriiuiii A { n. ma )lU;IU>Ht tlMllIlT wlilch was \('t arci'ptcil. Notlilu); on fare «if tender to sh )\v that any one but Cooper, Fairmaii A Co. wislieii to contract for transportation. Conlratl St'.i'i (\iopor, Fairm-'u ■ti Co.'s letter re- Karding this con- tract. l.']658. Ill the ^s(atenleMt wliich you havo now made, aflor < on^iloi!!- tion since yosterduy, you monl.ion that one tciulor was rniido l>y Mossi>, PorkiiiB, LivirigHtoii, PoHt »fe Co., and you mention tho re.Hiilt of th,. traimaction, as to the money jiaid to otiier jjoople, Init you do rioi happen (o mention who made the tender which was the hiniicst ami wiiieh was aecepled : please slate who made tliat tender? — Cooper Fairman it Co. lofiSf). Tliofo was no tender matle by either tiio Mersey I ron and Sto( I Co. or by the Morciiants Tialco and liivor Steamship Co. ior this pari! cnlar work, was there?— No tender was signed by those companies. IIjOUO. Was there any tender |)Ui-porting to be ma le on their ixdialt lor this work of trarispoi tutioii ? — There is notliing on the face of t!i, tender beyond the statement that the rails wore to bo of the brand i ; the Mersey Steel and Iron Co. 13G(!1. And how do j'ou think that intimates that the tiaiispoifatinh from Montreal to ruluth was on account of the Merchants Jjake aiii! Jiivor Steamship Co., or on aceountof the Mersey Steel and Iron Co. ' Wo are speaking now of the contract for transportation ? — It does not appear on the face of the tender. 13662. Have you been in doubt of that since I have been askitii; these questions of you ? Have you been in doubt about the natui-e oi my (juestion that it was about transportation ? Head if you wish i'n. i, some description of this contract and say if wo ai-e not discussing ;c matter of transportation only? — Yes; 1 understand that we are dis- cussing a matter of transportation. 13G()3. Will you read anj^thing in that tender which suggests lliiii any person but Coopei", Kairman 6c Co. wished to contract for trans- portation ? — There is nothing on the face of the tender. 13G6-1:. Had you any other means, as far as you know, of uii(i(>!- standing what wa.s meant by the tender excepting what was on tli,' face of it ? — No. 13GG5. Have you investigated the particulars of the transportation nf which we spoke the other day, and ior which tenders were maJe liv Fuller it Milne, and by Mr. Kittson ? — [ have not completed tin- investigation. 13GGG. What is the next contract in the order of time which we have not investigated ?— No. 22. It is with Holcomb »!!', Stewart for tlif transportation of rails with their accessories from Montreal to Kingston. 136G7. Have you the contract ? — No; but I shall produce it. 13668. Was the work let by public competition ? — A ciroular \va< sent to the various forwarders. The circumstances are related in a rej)oH by Mr. Fleming, which I nosv produce. (Exhibit No. 142 ) 13669. Is it concerning this same work that a letter of Cooper, Fair man & Co., addressed to yourself, dated 14th July, 1875, was written : a copy of it appears on pnge 66 of the Return to the House of Com- mons ? — Yes. 13670. Was the work under this contract satisfactorily performed, an far as you remember ? — Yes. 13671. And settled for without any dispute ? — The accounts are ni»t absolutely adjusted, but there is a very trifling difference. 933 TRUDEAU TraaaportaMon of RhIIn— 13G72. I noticud that, in this telcf^nun you jiienliori— or rathor Mr. <-'»"•«•*«:»«•. »<>• Fleming mentioDK—tho woigiit ol' the ton: 1 think the advortiboment '"Vu. **'' "''*'* which you produced yoHterday about tlie other matter, that is the other contract No. 20, the weight of the ton wa^ not mentioned ? - Xo ; it is not monlionod. i;JG73. Then was it the short ton was contracted ihv in contract 20? — No ; it was tlie long ton. 13674. I understood you tlio other day to cxphiiti that whctiover the weight was not mentioned it meant a short ton ?— It does. 13()75. llow do you oxphiin, although the advertisement hero does not mention the weight, the contract substantially was tliu long ton ? — When those tecdcs wei-e received wo found that some of the parties t>aid nothing about tho weight or the number of pounds in a ton, ifiereby meaning it was a short ton, while other parties mentioned the long- ton. VVo, therefore, ascertained from the parties what kind of ton they meant. 13676. Then it was by subsequent negotiation, and not by any impliotl understanding, that tho weight was tixetl ? — Yes. 13677. Upon page 65 of the Eeturn of the House of Commons thore is a copy of a letter from Cooper, Fiiirman trHctNo.»7. il ' ' '■ 1 Li'iu-r 111 UnI Dt- (•I'lllluT, 1»<7.'), ' liefort' advi'rtlHP- iiicnt (or tfiKU'is. ("tfK-r iiccM'i>l('(i dated Miiy tsili, Js7ti. RniUvny <'outratt No. SO. <'ooper< Fair« iiiMn A (^'o. Let by puldlc ronipetlttou. Bolts HUd SflltH- Contrnct No. 30i i'ooprr* Fail'* lunu jk Co. 13(J90. Wilt* thia work let l)y j)ublic compotition ? — Yen. 13691. Have you a copy of tlio udvortiHomont and a list of tlic tenders?—! have ; and 1 pioduco it. (Exhibit No. 145.) 13G92. Was thoro any corroHpondonco bcHidos Iho foi-mal tendois upon tho subject witb tho Dopuvtmont beforo tho contract was let ? — Yes. 131193. Can you produce it ?— 1 produce it. (Hxhibit Xo. 14H.) 13G94. This a]»pears to be a letter dated 31st December, 18*75, botori^ your atlvortisenient iiskinu; for tenders; has this been considercil togetlu'r with the tenders which were put in alter your advortisenioni '/ — 1 do not know whether it was considered. 13095. It is from U. E. Jacques iV Co., who describe themselves an agents of the Merchants Lake and Jiiver Steamship Co.; was tlii-t the succc^liil otVor — J mean was it this otVer that was accepted by lii.' Department ?— No: the offer accepted by the Department is dated Mii\ 8lh, 187<). it was one of the tenders sent in in answer to the adverlix; nient. 13096. Has the work been performed satisfactorily? — ^'es. 13097. Has tliere boon any dispute upon the subject, eithei- betwei'ii rival tenderers or between the Government and the contractor? — N^i. 13098. Is there any other matter connected with it which you think requires to be investigated ? — No. 13099. What is the next contract, in order of time, which we have not investigated ? — It is contract No. 28 apparently, but it is only an extension of contract No. 18, with some new prices added, but which wore not acted on. 13700. Then there has been no transactions under that contraci which we may not investigate under contract No. 18? — No. 13701. Nothing which I'oquires hcparato explanation from that of contract 18? — No. 13702. What is the next contract, in order of time, which we have not investigated ? — Contract No. 29, with Cooper, Fairman & Co., for the supply of railway spikes. 13703. Was this let by public competition ?— Yes. 13704. Have you a copy of the advertisement and a list of tho toi.- ders?— Yes ; and I produce it. (Kxhibit No. 147.) 13705. Has this contrAct been fultilled? — Yes. 13700. Was it awarded to the lowest tender ? — It was. 13707. Has there been any dispute between tho rival tenderers, or between the Government and the contractors ? — No. 13708. Is there any other matter con lected with it which requirci^ explanation or investigation ? — No. 13709. What is tho next contract, in order of time, which we havo not investigated? — Contract No. 30. It is a conti'act with Coopoi, Fairman cS: Co., agents for Kobb A: Co., for tho supply and delivery of bolts and nuts. 13710. Was the contract for thcne materials let by public cora])oli- tion ?— Y''es; it was one of the items in the tender received for the p-up- •JIJO TRUOEAU at contftic ■om that (if L of tho toir ]»ly of stool ruils from tho Morsoy Iron and Stool Co., roproMonto-l by Coopor iV Fuirman. 13711. Wa« this conti'act the result of acfe|»tiii<; any one of tlu; tcnJerH, or was it roachod by iie^v tio>^oliatit»i)H'.''—Thf lender hy tht* Mersey Stool and Iron Co. was aeceptod, and when the contract was prepared tho Mersey Co. asked tiiat they sliouM not bo cal'ed upon to supply the nuts and bolts. Theroupon Messrs. Coopoi- \- Fainnan, in a letter dated the 2nd of March, 1875, asked whi^ther the Hopartment would accept bolts and nuts made by Robb iV Co. of tho Toronto Holt and Nut Woi-ks. The Department agreed to this by teh-i^ram dated tho 5th of March, 1875, to Cooper, Fairman & Co., informing them that the proposition was accepted. l.'}712, Then, on tho 2nd March, 1875, thei-e was no hindini^ arrange- ment made with any om* for the supply of these articles ; I understand that in that same kttei'CyOopoi', Fairman iV Co. intimate that tho .Mersey Steel and Iron Co. object to include these articles in their contract ? — Ves. 1371.'{. At that time do you understand there was no bindinii; con- trait for tlieir supply — I mean on the 2nd March, lf575 ; in other vv<»rds, was it matter which the Depailmont mi;^ht deal with as seemod most to their advant.t^e ? — There was a contract in this sense : that the Mersey Co. had made a tender and the Department had accepted it. 1371-t. 1 understood you to sny that tho Mei-sey (-o. declined to carry out tho contract althoui;;h the lendci' was accepted, and that thoreloro that fieed tho J)epartment; am 1 wion^or right in this? As a matter of fact was no', the contract with tho Mersey Steel and Iron Co. executed without this being in il ?— Yes, it was, 137 5. Then do you not understand that tho Department was free from that subject in tho Mersey Steel and lion Co.'s contract or t(*nder ? — Well, I tliink it would be free. 13716. Being free, in your opinion, do you know whether tho -l>epartmcnt took steps to ascertain tho lowest price at which tlieso articles could be obtained. For instance; J notice in tho list of tenders of November, 1874, in which these articles were connected M'ith the tenders for rails, several persons offered to supply them at ])rico8 much below this $101 per ton: — (Juost & Co, $93.7!); James Watson & Co., $1)2.47 ; J. B. Allis, $94.50; William Darling & Co., $.)2.47 ; and Eice, Lewis & Son, $99 ; were any of tho.se parties com municatod with or any other steps taken to obtain tho articles at lower ])rices than $101 — 1 mean after tho Department was free in March, 1875 ? You will notice that the letter from Coopor, Fairman & Co. notifies the Department of this objection on the 2nd of March 1875, and that on tho 5th of March you close a bargain with them : does that help you to say whether elforts were made in any other diieotion ? — I do not think that anything was done beyond accepting Coopor & Fairman's offer to do the work for $101. 13717. Docs it hap])on that tho lap.^c of a periol, as long as that between the tenders of November, 1874, and this conti-act in March, 187.T — .somewhere about four months — materially affects the price of such articles as these in tho market? — It might. 13718. Do you know whether any efforts were made, without apply" ing to individuals on this occasion, to a.scertain whether tho market IIoHm aikI Kut« - 4oiilrMc( .^d. :|tl. <'uo|»«>r« FhIi'. iiinu A <'•> llnw I'oiil iin;l. I'ltiiD' to b<' nmilo. Hiiuiti'Nlliin liv ( 111 |i('r. Kali nriii A Cii. Coupler, Fainri.in A Co.'s olTf.r Wiis accepted wllliout colii|)i;lill>iii. Do(!S not, know U' !iny e(r)rt,s were iiiiulc to ascertula wlioLlnr pno.j.s iiad fall(!ii. um IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I ''■ IM 1112.2 ■ IM 2.0 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 < 6" - ► Photographic Sciences Corporation 4^ ■^ !\ \ \ «■ ^ O^ %^ ^\^'^> " TRUDEAU 936 BoltaandWutM— « ontract No. 30. Cooper, Fair- man A Co, Flemtnp rpcom- irif^nds t he at-cept- an'-e of tUe ofltT. Pots not know Wliethcr the poods were Cana- diiiri rnak*' or tK>'. • I pi'ice of these articles hail cljungod materially since Noveinljor, 18^4 .' — I do not. 13719. Have you the ofl'cr of Cooper, Fairman & Co. of the 2iid ol March on this subject ?— Yes ; I produce it. (Exhibit No. 148.) 13720. 1 notice a memorandum on this which appears to he by Mf. Fleming; will you please say whether that had anything to do with the acceptance of it, and read the memorandum ? — The offer was leferred to Mr. Fleming for report, and on the 4th of March ho i-ecom mended the acceptance of the otfer. 13721. Who gave the final decision on the subject after that nieiao- landum by Mr. Fleming? — i find the word approved written b}- myself under Mr. I'leming's recommendation. 13T22. Does this writing of your own refie^h your memory on the subject as to whether any effort had been made by yourself to ascertain whether this price had been the best price ? — It does not. 13723. Has this contract in the name of Jiobb & Co. been fulfilled? — Ves. 137lJ4. Is there any other matter connected with it which you tliitik proper to explain ? — I do not know of any at tiiis moment. l.i>725. Do you Ftnow whether these articles were Canadian made ()r English made; Robb i^' Co. from the tenor of the letter of Coopei-, Fairman & Co. ajipear to be a Toronto firm : if }ou look at page 5i) of that Heturn you will see what they say on the subject of the Toronto Xut Works, rather suggestijig that they were to he furnished according to a sample from Sandberg, but perhaps it means that they wei-e to come from England. I only wish you to say how that was?-l am not aware where the goods came from. 1372G. Are you aware of any wi'itten contract or description which would make that plain, or is the contract included in this projiosal and in the telegram in answer to it without any further document? — No, 1 do not know of any other document but this letter. 13727. In the reference to this contract in Mr. Fleming's special report of 1877, on page 39G, it says that the bolts and nuts are delivered in Montreal or Toronto, and are to be manufactured accoi-ding to u eample fui-nished by C. P. Sandberg: can you say now, looking at that reference by Mr. Fleming, whether these articles are English made or Canadian made ? — No. The reference to the sample furnished by Mr. Sandberg does not make it necessary that the rails should b* made in England, or that they wei-e made in England. The rails were specified to bo Sandberg's standard section, the fish-joints also were specified to bo Sandberg's standard, and it was necessary that the bolts, in order to fit the holes in the rails and fish-plates, should alf-o bo for that standard. 13728. Then, upon ihemain question, can you sny whether the article-^ furnished under this contract wei-e made in Canada or England ?— No, I cannot ; I cannot at this moment. 13729. Will you bo able to ascartain that?— I will try. 13730. Do you know whether articles of this kind made in England are considered moi-o valuable than such articles made in Canada for railway purposes? — I am not aware that the bolts and nuts made in England arc better than those made in Canada. m TRUDEAU 13731. Is there any otiier matter connectcil with this particular transaction which you would like to explain? — Not that I think of at this moment. 13732. What is the next contract, in point of time, which we 1 avo POt investigated ?— Contract No.3i, with the Patent Bolt and Nut Co., for the supply of bolts and nuts for British Columbia. 13733. AVhere wore these articles to be delivered ? — At Liverpool. 13734. Is the contract made with this company or with some one else for thorn ? — There is no further contract but this letter, and the acceptance by the Department. The letter is signed "The Patent Bolt and Nut Co., per Cooper, Fairnian & Co, Agents. " I produce it. (Exhibit No. 149.) 13735. Was the supply of these articles contracted for after public competition on the subject? — No, tenders wore invited for delivery in England ; but in a tender sent in by Cooper A: Fairman for the supply of rails the price of iron bolts and nuts to bo delivered at Liverpool is stated to be £1*J. 10s. sterling. 1373G. When was that lender put in? — In November, 1874. 13737. Either in November, 1874, or at the time of this letter in March 1875, or between those times, had there been any invitation of public competition on this subject?— No. 13738. Had you, without public coinj)etition, received many offers on this subject out of which you made this selection, or was this the only "tier — 1 mean for bolts delivered at Liverpool? — At this moment i think it was the only offer. 13739. Are you aware of any nicatis being taken by the Department at that time to ascertain the prices of such articles otherwise than l»y this letter of Cooper, Fairman & Co. ? — I am not. 13740. Is the acceptance of this offer rccomnieride I in the siime way as the last otter by Mr. Fleming ?— Yos ; the otter by Cooper, Fairman i*c Co. was referred to Mr. Fleming for repoi-t, and ho recommended its acceptance, and it was a]»[)rovcd by himself 13741. Is there any other matter connected with this contract which you wish to explain ? — Not that 1 know of at this moment. 13742. What is the ne.Kt contract, in point of time, which wo have not investigated ? — It is contract No. 32, with Cooper, Fairman & Co., for the sup])ly of railway spike^> to be delivered at Foit William and Dululh. 13743. Have vou the contract ?— Yes; I produce it. (Exhibit No. 150.) 13744. Was this contract lot by public competition ?— Yes. 13745. Have you a list of the tenders and any report upon them by the engineer or other peison ? — Ye-^ : I jiroduce them. (Kxhibits Nos. 151 and 152.) 13746. Besides the tenders ropoi-ted upon iti the documents you produce was there any other tender which was notconsidci-od? — There was one tender received from Kice, Lewis it Son, of Toronto, on the 2l6t of March. Bolt* aiKllViitii— CoulrHtt No. 3U. ('oiiliHct So. 3U U.C.— Cofiper, Fairo iiinn <^ Co. No coiitniPt save the letter /roni t,'") tlio second, /liKliest |)rlee.")cts. a ton higher than (Yiopcr, Fairman it t'o.'s teiKler. Letter from Cooj)- rinK-~ Coutrni^t MO. 4'Z. r, 18S0. )s I should ^'oi'lv city, motions of you weie lio lime ol' to Ottawa nos & Co., Dne that I ;villing to l.'n63. Had you any more knowh'Jge of railway mattoraat that time than Andrcw.-i, Jones & Co. ? — Not at that time. No, Sir. 13764. Was it an opinion upon the matter of finances, or upon tlic Cann- to inv.sii- l»racticability of the work oi- the prices of it, that you wore to investi- ofI.o,\\7arV*i.r<')v- gato ? — 1 was to investigate both in regard to the probab'llty of its ina'i i)iiyiim one. being a paying contract ; also, in effect, to investigate the whole matter — to look into the whole matter and to sec whether w^e would be justified in going in or not as bondsmen, to Curnish the 5 per cent, the Govern- ment required to bo put up. 13765. At that time was it intended by Andrews, Jones i*l: Co. that you should have any interest in the profits or losses of the concei-n ? — Not at that time, it was afterwards — after 1 came to Ottawa. At the time 1 loft New York' it was not. 13766. At the beginrn'ng then it was merely in the character of siu-ely At fust connictcii Ihtit you were to be connectcii with it ?— As" a favour to Mr. Andrews. "HI" <''>i'tnict, '' only as Hiiiety. 137G7. As a surety ? -As a surety or to furnish the money. 13768. You mean the money which was required as the deposit ? — Yes ; the .5 per cent. 13769. When you reached Ottawa, what took place on the subject, so far as you were concerned ?— Well, wo investigated the matter. Mr. Jones made his statement, and 1 gathered all the information 1 could from one or another. I looked into the matter as closely as I could. 13770. Was Mr. Jones with you here? — Mr. Jones was, yes. 13771. Any other member of the firm? — No, Sir. 13772. That is Mr. N. F. Jones ?— Mr. N. F. Jones. 13773. Ho also is of Brooklyn ?— Yes. 13774. And was at that time?— And was at that time. 13775. Well ?— After looking carefully into it, I told Mr. .lones that xoid .loncn iimt a.s far as I was concorneJ I would be willini; to aid in furnishinL' the "**''*'■"'' V'l' ^^"•"* 1.1 iii'i, 1 ~. , ".. concerned ni^ money, altliough 1 did not at that time anticipate the contract would wouuiiurniNh tii« over come to us— or come to Andrews, Jones k Co. I should not have "'.X'-'' ''■ " '"" said us for 1 was not interested. 13776. Whon you say that you informed him that you would le ready to furnish thy money you still meant the money of the 5 per cent. ?— The 5 per cent. ; yes, Sir. 13777. Was it before you left Ottawa that any change was proposed 60 as to make you directly interested in the transaction ?— It wa->. Sir. 13778. Was any understanding arrived at on the subject before you Ucforc uavin^^ left Ottawa ?— There was ; that if I furnished the money 1 was to have ajrepirtilai'ir he 11 certain percentage in the contract. imniKiicd Uic money lie \vnn lo 13779. To bo a partner in effect ?— To bo a partner in cfTect. iiavcapcr.vntajro *■ ' on the conti'uct. 1 5780. Do you remember about what time that understanding was arrived at, whether it was long before you left the city or only a short time ?— It was a very short time before I left the city. 13781. Was it after you bocanie aware that the contract wasawai-dcd to Andrews, Jones & Co. ? — No, Sir ; it was previous to that. 13782. Do you moan that at Iho time that Andrews, Jones & Co. ■wore notified by tho Dopartraont of the awarding of the contrtict you t %i J. N. SiVIITH 940 Tendering— Coutraft Mo. 4'. r-.i': y-"'> Notice that con- tract awarded Andrews, Jon(>B & Co., first haud- ed witness l)y Jiradlcv. Letter from Andrews, Jones & Co., saying that if contract Hwardetl them tliey won id do- jioslt tlie 5 per cent. Iramedi- ately. Knew nothing of tliis letter. wore by the iin-angcmont witli tliom a pai-tiior in tho concern ? — Not a liarttier, but 1 was to become a partner in cawo that 1 I'ultilled certain conditions. 13783. You bad tho privile/^o of bth Februtiry, IBT'.', addiesscid to Aiidrew.-', Jones & Co. in this language : " CrKXTi.KMKN, — I have to inform you llial your teridi^r for the construction of section B of the Canadian Pacific Railway has h'-en acrepteil, and that the contract will be entered into with you in accordance with that tender, jirovided you deposit the 5 per cent, required in the si)ecification, by four o'clock, l'..M, on Saturday next." Can you say now whetlier thtit wtts the substance of the conimuiiicatiof* you received? — From the best of my recollection I shoukl say it was. 13790. Do you know that a day or two before Ihsit a communication had been addiessed by your tirni to tlics Sc^crclaiy of that Departiueiit upon the subject of your getting tho cond'act ; iind if so that you were ready to make the depo.sit immediately ? — No, I was not aware of it. [ might have been awiire of it at tho liirie, but if there was such a com- jnunication it has escaped my niottMJiy. 13791. Please look at this letter, dat(!d Kebruiiiy 24th, 1^70, and say if 3'ou know whose writing it is? — It is the writing of Mr. Jono^, I should say — Mr. N. F. Jones. 13702. The same gentleman you have just mentioned? — The s.imo gentleman. 1 would add tlitil I do not think I ever saw. that lette;; I do not think it was ever sliown to me. 13793. Jicad it aloud?— • We have the honour to inform you that we have associated with us Mr. A. Labergfl, general contractor, of Montreal, in connection with our tender for the work of con- struction on the Canadian Pacilio flailway, betwcuin Knglish Iliver to Keewatin, and to state, in case our tender shoul i be anions the lowest, and the work awarded to u9, that we are prepared to make the necesHary deposit of 6 per cent, immediately, and commence operations at once. We mi^lit add that our lirm ia composed strictly of practical railroad men of large experience. " We have the honour to he, 8ir, " V'our obedient gervatiti, " ANDIIEWH, .IUNK,S & COMPANY, " per N. V. .J0NB8." J do not think, Sir, I ever t-aw the letter. 941 J. N. SMITH Tciiili>i-iilK — Cuiilriict .\o. 12. 1)71' J. U iIk! Icrror of t.liis letk-i' itccoidiiii)- to what yoii tindfi-^tootl t(» bo l.li(! »-iiH(! 111. Unit time, or is it a lU'W idea to yon now? — It i.s entirely u riow idea to mo. l.'niTj. Mad yf»ii not the information at that time that iho (iim wax Tiiovmut tiippui.- I liiu up of money nail an ilcpciiilccl ('iitli>ily :W I'cady lo pnl up llic rnonoy immediately, if roijueste 1 ? — Ni idea that it desponded (Mitirely upon the io|)orl 1 wonM make wdien 1 mi'iiic rcpeii }^oL hiiek t«» N(jiv York, and I know that the money was not in the liands mauli^wiu'n'i'.o <»f ariy tifinhf.v of'lh(! Mfm hoir to nut un, or at io.'ist 1 was siipposod lo «!'' V'"''* ^" ^'' put up that tiuiount of money. I'M'.Xi, 'Ihoti iH if, your present (jpinion that that utatemont in the letter WfiM rnndo without proper foundation? — I think it vvas nnide — Mr. Jone^ war* nri extremely sanguine man, and f think it vvas mido not thirdtin^- that ho did not give it .sufH dent thought of the. umo refjiiired to hring «;iO(»,000 to hear at this point. I.'i71*7. Knowing that, as you saj', do j'ou think it was made with oi' riomis.'io put up without pr/»per foundalion y — I thiidc it was made without pi"<'pcr ^^.7^\V)!iu'^'Vtw'r (oundutir»»i, I (Jo not. think it had ])roper foundation at that tinu). 1 louuiiuiiuu. would Iil, Not int(!nding to mislead ; but as a matter of fact his state- ment wuH not w
    4!a. ixies not rciiH'in- l>er the nrrimtjc- iiiciit iniulr to m-t answer to New ^'oik in reply to their letter re- (luei-tlnit exten- sion of time to jiut up securlly. ArriinKeinent iiiade Willi .loiies. Cliaple;iii'.s account. Clinpleaii teie- gviiphecJ on the •JSth.thatappllrn- tion for extension of time, had been refused. Does not remem- lier whether the telegram was ad- dressed to liltn. The person who was 10 raise part of the security refused after hearing witness's statement. 13S04. Wh:it iin-an;i:cmoiit was mudo about ^eltlncf an answer to tin-* iOKof, in which you awk for an oxtonsion ? — I could not nay now. [ (lisi'oinembor. 1380,5, Mr. Cha])lc!iu', in hi.s ovidonco, I thiidv .«aiJ tliat the lutlor was to 1)0 aihh'CHscd to Homo hotel here, and some one was appointed to ascertain the contents and to conununicate with you hy teleii;rii|i|) .- does th.'it reffcsii youi' memory on the subject or are you. still in doubt ? — r am in doubt, because that arran<,'oment was made by Mr, Jones him- self i;?80t). Then you made no ai-rangements by which the substar.cc of the answer was to be communicated to you ? — No, 1 made no arrati<,fi'- ment ; the arrtingement was made by Mr. .lonos. I know there was some ariant^emont made by which we were to receive, as early as possible, a communication in answer to that letter. 13807, Mr. Chapleau aUo said, if I remember rightly, that ho wiis asked to ascertain from the Secretary of the Department what the substance of the answer was, and to communicate directly Avith yon by telegraph; antl ho did so : does that refresh your memory?— Was that directed to me, or to Andrews, Jones & Co. ? 1380^, I am not exactly sure what he said, but I will read from his evidence : — On the 26th of February, Andrews, Jones & Co. were informed tliat their tender was accepted for section B, and a stated time was given them to deposit the required 6 per cent. SPCurity.Mr. Smith immediately left for New 5fork. I may as well here state that, previons to hia leaving for New York, he sent for me, and asked me to inform him of the decision that the Government should arrive at in the matter of the appli- cation which he had made for an extension of time to put up that 5 per cent, security. He asked me if I would ascertain whether the time was extended or not, and telegraph him. Accordingly, two days after I telegraphed him that his applica- tion had been refused. He loft on the 2i>th, at night, and it was on the 28th I tele- graphed to him. — My recollection would be tho same: that it is the same. Mr. Joiie.-^ and I have every telegram that was sent in connection with the matter, hut 1 have not got them with mo. When I say myself, either myseli or Mr. Jones hold the telegrams that were sent, it may be correct, however. If it is, why it has slipped my memory. 13809. You do not remember now that the communication froii) Chapleau was directed to you : is that what you moan? — I donor, remember. The majority of them, I think, were directed to Andrews, Jones & Co. ; there may have been a special one sent to me, but T do not remember at this time, for I have forgotten. 13810. As I understand, tho completing of this contract with the firm of Andrews, Jones the money undi'r any clreiun- slancos. Witness wonhl not liavo tr'e i to persuade any oni> else. The breaking up of tho wlnt(fr wliat (leterredthe ?arty In New ork. «( 1 I [ M 0. N. SMITH IU4 TeiiilrrinK— Coiitravt .«n. 4*2, r I .» ' .-: ' Looklna nt, ttio liiiH' of year run I met, hIiouIiI have ln'oii h't as ii(l<'(l on Ki'lllri!:! • he .suiii)lle.s III. WouUl have been more advantage- ous to have let the vork earlier. No further at- tempt made to tfct money. C'hapleau wroti; ?inl< tliii' V rciisoi! c it would depend e i 'H in 111" it was to> ot in Hnji- )plios and U4 to havo JOS ; as fur )i'k on tht> advanced Mr. Jones nade. ication t") link thei'O ?— I think -ne statini,' wished [ for me tu I made up )ven if the —Wo had iend who id decided o a certain Uection is was the ,?— Yes. ?— I think that Mr. a certain art of thi^i I'oiiliai't No 42, 13833. Who was to furnish the balance? -Ft was found timt it was necessary. I believe ho was to make arrangements with some CaruidiaiiH hero to furnish the balance and to have an interest. The arrangement, I do not think, was over fully perfected, but I do not know. 13834. Upon the question of this communication, do you remombor Thn»ks ho wns that you wore informed that a portion of the deposit had boon provided, J'orUorToMhe''^ and for that and other reasons you had bottor reconsider your decision itepoj-it iiad t>e«'u to give up tho matter ? — I think that is so, although 1 am not positive ; ""^"^ * *^' * but I think that is so. It is some time since, and I could not say posi- tively that there was (-uch a communication, but I think there was such a communication.- I do not think ; perhaps it was sent to me ; it may have been sent to Andrews, Jones & Co., or it may havo been sent to me. 13835. After tho 28( h, upon which you say you iuui this first dis- Mmic no further cussion with your fi'iend, did you ever make any further attempt to *",'5jpp;"''"'''^""* carry out tho tender ? — I think not. 1383'5. Or to complete the contract? — No, 1 think not. 13837. Do you know whether any person made any deposit on account of your tirra ? — No ; I do not know. 13838. Do you know whether any authority was given to any one to make a deposit ? — As at that time I was not a member 1383!). I speak of the firm of Messrs. Andrews, Jones ifc Co. ? — No ; I do not know whether there was any deposit made or not. 1 have no knowledge of ray own in regard to it. 13840. There is a letter of March 5, 1879; please look at it (handing it to the witness') and say in whose handwriting it is if you know? — Will you be so kind as to give mo one of Mr. Jones' to look at ? 13841. Could you not say without comparing it with another of Mr. Jones' letters (handing another letter, which witness looks at) ? — No, I could not. \ should say that that was not Mr. Jones' writing. I do not think it is. 13842. Do you know whose it is ? — I do not know. 13843. It is dated on March 5th ; are you aware whether Mr. Jones was in Ottawa at that time?— March 5th: no, he was not here then. 13844. That Avould be some weeks after the day on which you say you and he were discussing with your friend the propriety of going into tho contract. There is another letter of March 3i'd ; please look at it and say if you know whose writing it is (handing the letter) ? — No, I do not. J have no knowledge of the writing whatever. 13845. Was Mr. Jones hero at that time? — Ho wa recollection. I think after leaving here he did not come live — Mr. Andrews? as not to my back at all. 13846. Where does the other member of the firm — In Brooklyn, New York. 13847. Do you know whether ho was up here on tho 3rd or 5th March? — No, he was not. He was never up here on this business. 13848. What would you say about those letters signed on the 3rd nizo handwrit-- of March and 5th March respectively — Andrews, Jones & Co. ; were pul^pirting'to they signed by any member of the firm do you think ? — I could not c"™® trom say. I know that is not Mr. Andrews' writing. a'co. ^^*'' ' *'° 60 J. N. SMITH mo Teiiiln-lng— Contrnrt BTo. 4!!. Tliuri' wore ix'i - HOiiN/'roin tlii'wes- torn imrt o( t ho Dominion wlioiu It was propoNoii to takf til. Somt- talk that Alorse, NloholNun A Mnrpolo were to become mem- bers ot tlrni. Witness under* stood tliat Morse A Co. would not take their who had lower tenders and had not complied with tlie conditions wore to become partners of your firm— for instance, was Morse to bo a partner, as tar as you know ? — I could not say that Morse was, that it WJ18 definitely arranged. There was a talk that Morse and a man namoci Nicholson, and there was another party that I forget. I disremembor, 13857. Marpolo ? — It may have been Marpole, but I disremember. 13858. Did you understand from Mr. Jones that there was a possibi- lity of these persons who had not complied with these conditions, still being interested in the contract at tho higher price? — No; I understood that tlioy would not take their contract at any priee. 13859. Who would not take it? — That Mor.so ^ Co. would not take their conti'act at any price, 13860. Did you understand that they were to take a higher price contract or any interest in it? — Nicholson told roe that if he had got both sections that he bid for, A and B, he was willing to take them. That they had given A to another party, and that was a section where he had an advantage in, arid B was awarded to hira ; but I do not think there was any arrangement made with Nicholson on account of u- iiaino ')i Iioro wiis ii and I IhiiiK to conio ill. ottor of t lie ly tliiit lli( s horo that 11, and thai I condition>, the moncv tlioro wore natter with, e doliiiitely uto tl>o firm low ing wii( ng in ? — Ot I could oven )tion ?— Till' leaving to hose parti Ch vo or throe in order to purely an the person^ iitions wore rso to bo a vas, that it , man Dutucit isremember. emember. as a possibi- ditions, still understood lid not take igher price he haa got ) take them. IS a section but I do not account of 947 d, N. 3MITH .Inii('><' i)hjf»pt In t Ilk I mi; MiirHi' iV ('«'. In WHS fo iilvo a (/itrijulliin I'li'- iiifut to till' tiriu III) cxcolli'ijl eoii- t rucl. 'I'miloi-lnc-' Coiitra«-t No. 4'.1* hiH bid. I think he would never Imvo signoil hi^< contiait, hikI toiild not have signed his contract. l.'JSfJl. .Mr. McDonalil, wiio aftorvvards InM-atno iiitorestcd in the coiitrait, montionod in hi.s oviooiico at Wiiiiiipog thai it wji-t by the cMorts ol'ono of the h»wo.st londerors who had not comjdicd with tlio conditions that those deposits wore put up, and it was an attotnpt on their part to got an intorost in the samo contract at a liiglior piicf than their own fonder: do you think that is what loil to this deposit — I wish to know whether you arc aware of any sucti anaiigcmcnt or any thing in that direct ion ? — 1 am not aware of'any such arrangement. Mr. Jones stated to me his object was in taking thorn in tiiat ho wanted to add two Canadians to the firm so as it should not bo called exclusively an American concern. 138G2. Will you pK-tiso state what took place, cither in any personal K«ii«noii* »vmii interview or in any communication between you ami Mr. Chapleau, , "'i' •""■ upon the subject of your not completing this lender o.- ])iitting up tlio wiiiiV*t'i?>3iu'i>i'ii<-o deposit reciui'red?— Well, I had variou;> tnll-s with Mr. Chaitlcan while •',';t.w<;cn hiiu ami i was here. I had known Mr. Chapleau tni many years, and perhaps had known him very much longer than an} one in (Canada, and when I came hero ho used to come and call on n^o, and when ho was in Now York 1 used to call at the hotel and »"■■ him, and bo even came to my house, and consequently ho took more interest, I suppose, in advising • > J in these matters. Ho had a conversation with me in regard to section ciiapiiau ioM Ji — had various convoisations — from ilic time I came liere with I'rat't'was"" '"** Andrews or with Jones, and he seenied to think that it was a very excellent contract, and said to me that he wo ;1an. Ililiiks he gave Name reuttoDH aa before a^HlnBt ac- cepting contract Chapleaii never by word or act tried to induce wltneHH not to «?onoplete con- tract. Never any talk of Chapleau becom- ing Interosted an a partner. Does not remem- ber any conversa- tion to tlie effect that If Andrews, •Tones A Co. took contract Chap- leau was to leave Oovernraent and take an active part. before — th?-.: the spring was (K)raiDg on and the ice going out, n clitficulty of getting in supplies, &c., was one of our reasons, as well us the shortness of time for the procuring of the money. 1 Jo not recollect of anything else. 13870. Did he ever, by his conduct or his language, induce you or endeav^our to induce you not to complete the contract?— Never, never. 138n. Could you remember the time more nearly than you have described thiit he saw you in New York ? — I could not. I could not state — I leeu such an arrangement, but I have not 949 J. N. SMITH :i < out, H well us So not you or :ou hsive ;ould not own, if I «rould be I could ik it wan between sstod us a ri8inuatofl d money 'om pui'c Ion B, or cplain by imc? g ; I ma\ ler that I }onne(;tcd Ripley, 10 at that — became I which I would uestionM lich you conHider Smith if took the part with of tran»- wa« prcr !o.'k firm, ako Komo >d for the i8po*^Lin^ it, but I lave \>eeu Tcuflerins— Contract No. 49. 13879. Did you know him at the time of the American wAr?— Yes ; '*oih«**"*„7'**' I have known him for a long time. 13880. Did you know him intimately? — Not to my ro'imately, but quamted with we have known each other ever since however, tinfe!'^'*" * '°"^ 13881. Were you aware of his management diirin;; that time of bodies Aware of Chap- of men or transport of materials or anything of that kind?— I was ment*of huKcf" only aware from other officers who came more chwely in contact with bodies of men im than myself. transport of . , mp-torlala only 13882. And from that information how were yon impressed upon by hearsay. that subject? — I have always held him in high <}»t<;em. 13883. I mean in these particular branclMH ? — I should consider him Would consider a man entirely capable of any undertaking of that kind. ofTuchdutie'^ * 13884. Having that opinion, is your memory at all refreshed upon the subject as to whether you suggested at any time that he might be connected with this work in anyway? — My memory is, as 1 stated before, not clear upon the subject. It may have been so. 13885. Do you remember that it was ho ? — No, I do not. I could not state positively. 13886. The Chairman : — Is there any other «iacstion, Mr. Chapleau, which you consider should bo asked ? 13887. Mr. Chapleau :—^o. By the Chairman : — 13888. Returning to the Georgian Bay Branch matter, willj'on please Gconrinn B«y 8ta..e in what capacity you first became intercstfjd in the transaction ? conu" ct wo. 3T, — T became interested with Mr. Ripley at a late day, p(;rhflpH not more .j^^,„or three than two or thiee months previous to the clrming of the works. He months hofore came to mo and suid that the concern that he wan with — Charlebois & cd'bccatne in- Co. — had not sufiicient means to cjrry on the woik, and a.>iked me to }*''*"'V''i' 7'*'r..> . . •' ' Charlebois A Co. join him. 13&89. Do you say Mr. Ripley ? -Yes; Mr. Rijdrsy. 13890. flow was Mr. Ripley interested in the matter? — He becamo interested with Henoy, Charlebois k Fkxxi — f^ought an interest in the firm. • 13891. Do you know whether he was one of the original contrac- tors ? — lie Avas not. 13892. Was it by substitution that he l>ecame a partner, or was it an addition to the original firm? — I think it was an addition, but I am not cei'tain. 1389'^. Do you know, personally, whether he was recognized by the Trudeau said the fiovernmont, or is it only from some on<;clseV statement ? — The only noobyHctumto*** knowledge I have is from what he t^>ld me. I told hirn at the time that any addition to a before I went in I wanted him to come to Ottawa, and to sec if the bnmgiit it' Government would have any objections to our buying out thcs»! parties, strength. or buying oi't a portion of their interest. He informed me that he came and saw Mr. Trudeau and had a conversation with him in regard to it, and said that the Minister being away at that time ho saw the Deputy, and stated that Mr. Trudeau said that it had been the policy of the Government to strengthen at any time, and that the Governmont d. N. SMITH 950 I l^S It '. i Negotiated only ■V7lth Kipley. 'Witness and Hlplpy represent the whole Arm Reasons Tor «t()p|)ln>? work. CicorKian Bay BvHncU — Contract 5io.:{7. j^^j ^^ ohjections to add to the firm, if it ^ave a greater strength, and it was ii[)(ni that roprcsentation that 1 went in. 13894. Do you mean that Mi*. JRipley wcntin ? — It was on that repre- sentation tliat I wcntin. J joined him; he was already in. liJ8!)5. Did you negotiate with Heney and Charlebois or onl3' with Eipley, aa to your going in ? — Only with Ripley, 13896. Did you understand that he was negotiating on account of (he whole firm, or only for his own interest? — He was negotiating, I thinkjOn account of the whole firm, although I think there was a certain reservation made that Charlebois reserved a certain interest which ilipley was to give him if he went out, which we have since paid since the work stopped. 13897. Are you still connected with Ripley ? — I am. 13898. Is any one else now interested with you and Ripley ? — No. 13899. You claim to represent the whole firm as it originally stood, and with the addition of Ripley? — Yes ; we have an assignment of their entire interest which we got since the stoppage of the work. 13900. The contract was not carried on to its fulfilment ? — No. 13901. Why not ? — We were informed by the engineer chat the policy of the Government had changed, that they did not intend to build the branch, but intended to build the road north of Lake Nipissing. 13902. Was that by writing that intimation ? — No; I do not think that was in writing, but we had a notice. Our notice to suspend was in writing. 1 do not thinlc there was any cause given — any reason given — why they suspended. 13903. Have you any (daims against the Government on account of this stoppage of the work ? — Yes, I have. 13904. What is the nature of the claim ? — The claim is for work per- formed, for tramways, building docks, building and clearing the entire line through wooded country, and also for all the moneys that we have expended and a reasonable profit for the suspension of the work. 13905. You mean a reasonable profit on the balance of the work, if it had been completed ? — Yes, if it had been completed. < 13906. When you say for woi'k done, do you mean work done under the contract or work done when preparing for the fulfilment of the contract ? — A poi tion of it had been done under the contract — 1 think, from memory, $30,000 or $35,000 — perhaps more than that had been done under the contract, may be $40 000. The balance was for plant which we put there, which was lost largely ; and for loss of tools, loss of flour and food — and a large amount of flour and bacon, and sup- plies for our men that had been carried into the country and dragged up French River, that had to be brought back ; which really netted us very little — and I should have said horsea and cattle that wo had to bring back. We had bought them, and had to bring them back, and sold ihem at a nominal sura. ; , Furnished Gov- 1390*7. Have you furnised the Government with a detailed state- genTra^'^but m)t a ™®"* <*' ^^® P*'"^'^'*'*™ ®^ this claim? — I am not oure that we have, detailed state- I do not think we have. Wo did with a general statement, 1 think, bat mentor claim. „ot a detailed statement. 'Claim against Oovcriiment : natuic of. 'J51 J. N. SMITH <'«>orKiaB Umy llraneh— 13908. Has the claim been iiccudcd to, or do you know whellicr they *^«"*''««* w«-3T. have refused to entertain it? — 1 do not think they have acceded or refused. I have liad several talks with Sir Charles Tupper, and ho has always stated that ho was willing to do what is right in the matter, although wo have never been able to arrive at what that would be. 13909 Ilave you a i)orsonrl knowledge of what was done and of the I'aUiovcr.'jiiio.ooo foundation of this claim, or is it from jjorsons whom you employed °" ^*'"'''** that you gotXhis information ? — 1 have a personal knowledge from ray books, and from being on the work part of the time myself; but from my books. We have cash vouchers for all the money, and also from furnishing the money. There has been many bills paid since I have looked at the books,but the last time that I remember we had paid over $100,000 — considerably over $100,000 — in money, that we have cash ▼ouchei'8 for. 13910. I understand that your claim is composed of two branches : ciiiimi.ifurcatcd: one for actual outlay and loss, and another for contemplated profits, if lind^oss'; 72)V-f)n- the rest of the work had been done? — That is the fact. lempiatc'dprojits. 13911. But you have not furnished particulars of these different items? — The Government have never been ready to receive them that way. I do not know but they were ever placed in your hands, Mr. Macdougall (turning to Hon, William Macdougall, who was sitting behind him). 13912. As to the branch for the outlay, can you say in round numbers the amount which you have actually expended, and which will be lost to you in consequence of the suspension of the work? — 1 could not state the exnct amount, but I can state positively that it exceeds $100,000— lam speaking of the outlay we have made — the loss we have actually sustained. , 13913. I am asking for the outlay alone, not speaking of thecontem- putiuyover plated profits ?— It is over $100,000. $m,m. ; 13914. It may bo literally within the scope of our enquiry to hear evidence upon this subject, but I have a grave doubt whether we should finhll}'- pass u])on it, and while we have no objection to receive evidence, we wish to say that for the present wo do not feel authorized to give any conclusive repoif on such a claim even if we heard much fuller evidence than you have offered to day : taking that into consi- deration, do you wish to go further into the particulars or substance of your claim in this matter ? — Nothing further than to say that we have cash vouchers for all the money that we have expended. We can show besides a voucher for each and every dollar that we have expended. 13915. If it should bo hereafter decided by the Governor General that claims of this kind ought to be finally investigated by us, we will have to give parties further notice, in order that both sides may be represented, and witnesses examineu and cross-examined from the interest of the different parties; so that if it should happen that we over take up the claim with the view of deciding it, you will get further notice on the subject. When you speak of $100,000, do you mean that it is the balance unsettled —that you have received nothing on account of that $100,000? — We have got nothing on account of that ^$100,000. i 13916. . on consider that you have a claim for that amount ex- ipended? — Over that amount. 1 could not say exactly the amount, but J. N. SMITH 052 Oeororlan Q^y BrMneb— Contract Ko.37< •TentlcrlnK— Contract Bio. 61) B.C. Hail an Interest with Uyan & Goodwin. Interest pftsseil to Ondenlonk. it runs over $100,000. If you should conclude to take this matter up, Mr. Macdougall is my attorney, and through him any notice could be given in which we would appear at any time, and bring books and vouchers to substantiate our claim. 13917. That will save us the trouble of communicating with you at Now York? — Yes. 13918. That will bo recorded. Is there any other matter connected with the Pacific Kailway in which you have been interested ?— I had an interest in section B of the Canadian Pacific Eailway, and also in British Columbia, in connection with Mr. Goodwin — Mr. James Goodwin, of Ottawa — and Mr. Eyan. 13919. Was this firm one of the tendering firms for the work ? — It was. 13920. Do you know whether the tender was the lowest for that par- ticular work ? — It was the lowest. 13921. Was the contract signed by this firm as originally con- stituted ? — I think it was. It was signed by Mr. Goodwin on my part ; I left him a power of attorney. J3922. Have 3'ou remained interested in it? — Noj I am not inter- ested in it at present. 13923. Ilas the Government asssentod to any transfer of your interest ? — I have no knowledge upon that subject, as I left the matter entirely in Mr. Goodwin's hands after leaving here. 13924. Do you understand fiom your ])artner that it has been con- cluded by arrangement with the Government? — I understood that it was satiisfuctory to the Government. 13925. And that your interest has been parted with ? — Our interest has been parted with. 13926. To whom ? — To Andrew Ondordonk. I think ho is from San Francisco. 13927. Did you negotiate with him directly yourself, or was it done through some one else ? — It was done through myself, James Goodwin and Ml". Eyan. We were all together at the time the negotiation took place. The final concluding writings was done, I think, by Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Eyan, I leaving power of attorney. Having to leave and go to Now York, 1 loft a power oc' attorney with Mr. Goodwin for the fixing up and signing of some papers. What they wore I do not remember. 13928. Was there any consideration given to your firm for this transfer ? — There was a certain consideration. 13929. What considci-ation ?— Well, I should rather ask to bo excused from answering that. It was a private matter between Onderdonk and myself, and ho might think I was violating his confidence. 13930. I do not think we are at liberty to excuse you after having undertaken the duty which wo have under our Commission, namely to i n vest! s; ate into all matters connected with the Pacific Eailway; our authority on this point is a subject which we have given serious consi- deration, because wo were aware that such an objection as this of yours might arise. I can only say, speaking for the Commission, that wo feel it our duty to ask the question, and that wo think it proper latter up, could be loks and th you at onnected I?- 1 had 3d also in r. James rork ?— It that par- lally con- ly part ] I not intev- of your ho matter l»een con- M. that it I' interest from San as it done Goodwin lion took Goodwin and go to he fixing amember. 963 J. N. SMITH for this e excused nderdonk d. having amely to (vay; our us consi- 18 this of sion, that t proper Tt'iiili-flMK— «oiitrartiNot«ll» u.<;. to press it? — Under the circumstances I thall, of course, answer. Wo Rynn, awKiwinA each one— that is Mr. Ryan, Mr. Goodwin and myself— had each one- onoVthinU»rcoM. third, and I received thirty-three thousand odd hundred dollars for my siciimtion ; wit- _„_4. nesH receiving part. $3;i,()(K) oUtl. 139.31.. That would be equivalent to $100,000 for the whole interest ? — Which I divided with my pai'tner, that is my present partner, Mr. Eipley. 13932. Do you mean that is, as far us your intorost is concerned, that it was disposed of on the basis of the whole contract being worth $100,000 ? — 1 wish to correct that. I did not receive the full 33A per cent, of the $100,000, but something like $31,000. Corrects htniHeir: what he receiv- ed W(IH one-third of ii il(X),0()0 1essfl,ri(lO. Had you any information, directly or indirectly, upon the ^^^J"'^"'"'"""'^" as to charncU-r of tenderH until after they were In. 13933. It was less $1,500, was it not?— Yes; the 33^ less $1,500. 13934. Did you take any part in making the tender, or arriving at the prices named ? — I did. 13935. Was it from personal knowledge that you arrived at these IH'ices, or had you any extraneous information on the subject? — The tnowledge that I got came from engineers who had been on the survey there, and the character of the ground — that is the character of the material and the difficulties to bo overcome. 13936. Had you any reason at all to think that other person's tenders upon the same subject were higher than the tender you were making at the time ? — No ; I had no knowledge of any tender excepting our own. 13937 subject? — No information whatever. 13938. I moan as to tite tenders which had been put into the Department? — Never, unff after the tenders wore in. 13939. I mean up to the time that you put in your tender ? — ^No. 13940. Did you got any information on that subject from any of your partners — I mean as to the contents of other tenders ? — No ; I had no knowledge from any one. In fact, [ am not aware that they had. The.!;i(K),fH)Ore- 13941. This $100,000, the nominal price for the interest of all the ''"««"» *'•';'*• i • ii .. i. i. 1 J 1 A. Krtft -i o IT which was Klven partners in that contract, was reduced by $4,500, was it ? — Yes. 13942. For what purpo.se was that $4,500 taken out? — It was given to one of the partners. One of the partners insisted upon not !«elling out. 13943. And it was a bonus to him ? — It was a bonus to him. He insisted upon not selling out. 13944. It was not for assistance received from any one in the Depart- ment? — No; it was not. One of tho parties insisted on not felling out, and the others of us agreed to give him more in order to get him to sell out. 13945. There are rumours in this country that information has been iinproperly obtained from the Department, and it is our duty to ascer- tain whether such was the case or not? — Well, we have a good many rumours of tho same kind in our country too. to one of the partners. J. N. SMITH 951 'f I T«;ii4lerinK— <'«ntract. Aio. Ml* H.(/. A wait' of no im- proper inlluenc(.' lo asMlKt his firm. Total n mount of contract •}.'!,(il7,isn Exprotcd to iH'l ull tlie »;t'(-tioni«. lii!>-16. Are you auiiro of any )>r()miHo ;^ivoii, or suiy tnonoy paid, or any atlviintago bctttowid upon any porHon connuctod with tlie Depart- mcnt to assist your firm, or any ol' thom, in (jbtaining this contract? — No ; 1 am not. 13947. Are you awaro of any Member of Parliament, Minister of tlio Crown, or otherwise, getting any advantage or any promise upon this subject ? — No. 13948. Do you rcniembor about the amount of the gross price upon the estimated worit of tiiat contj-act? — You mean the total? 13949. Yes ? — I forget now, I could not state ; but it seems to rao that it is — I will not attempt to state it because I should make a mis- take, and it would be useless for mo to do it. 13950. I may mention, for your Information, that the Blue Book gives it at ^SjOltjlSU : do you know whether that will refresh your memory at all on the subject? — Vos; that is about it tis 1 recollect. I should like to state hero, in justification for the selling of this, at the time that we put in the bid we expected to got the other sections; that was our intention — to get them altogether. When wo found we had but one section wo found that it would be disadvantageous to us to do that one section and other parties doing other sections, as there would be con- flict in labour between the different contractors on these three different divisions, or four, and the satno arrangements would have to be raado for carrying out supplies and carrying out men for one section that would have to be nuido for all of the sections. While it would not pay three or four men, it would pay one man lo carry on this work, and have the entire thing very much bettor. 13951. You make uso of the word justification : tho Commissioners do not intend to suggest that it requires any defence, or that it is wrong to sell a contract fairly obtained ? — I ^uld like to have it struck out, and to say by way of explanation 13952. This wish is recorded, and that will probably answer the same j)urpose : is there any other matter connected with this contract in British Columbia that you think proper to give by way of evi- think pre donee ? — There is nothing further or interest that 1 know of. 13953. Were you interested in any of the other contracts in British Columbia, which were obtained in tho names of other persons? — No; I was not. 13954. Y'ou mentioned tho principal reason for parting with this interest, that you had boon disappointed in not getting more of the contracts : have you ever consldorod tho effect of having several of those contracts, as to the gonoral cost— T moan having two,or three, or more— would it decrease your expenditure by any particular percentage for instance ? — It would very largely. 13955. Then, as a consequence of that, would the effect be, that if Mr. Onderdonk got several of them he could afford to pay any indivi- dual contractor as mucu as ho did pay, and still save that much upon wjfat he dw ew^ the wholo ?— He could, as fkr as I know. 13956. 1 mean reasoning upon tho premises which you have described ? —Yes. 13957. According to that idea, it would be better alwajrs for the Government to let longer portions of the line than shorter ones : is that Onderdonk by having the whole -work could save «nongb In work- ing expenses to 1)55 J N. SMITH TcnderlBff— Cuntruvt No. Hl> U.V. or The OKvcrmiicnl iM'ller oir Willi tills work Iti tlio li.'iiids 111' Olio party thivii thnv would be with II In scvcnil hamlH. Concentration MiiVfN 111 the )st of liiboiir. And ecouomlsox machinery. yi)Hf (licory ? -Tliat is my theory; where they have rospoiisililo |t!iili(^s i lliiiiU il irt vciiy much bettor, aad I think it is to the iiitoiest ol' tlu; -p(!(ikih;^ of, ill the luinds of one party, than they would be to have it in I III' handM of several. Railroad corporations are <.'ominLf at the pri!H(;fit time (o that. They tind that they cannot f^o on letting small colli raclM ; it brings a conflict with labour. One m|Ui will hold labour a(. ont» price, and another at another, and the consequence is that bolbro tlu^y are through it costs tliom a groat deal more than to lot it to one r<'HporiHiblo party. I'JJJ'iH, Would it not make a material ditferenco also in the expense of muchi fiery and implements; tho same amount of machinery and iriipUjfnenfM necessary for a single contract being d^qual to the needs of a il>tt^,^•^^ piece ol work? — It would ; machinery is often lemovod from one Mii'tlou to another. Wo often take our steam shovel or steam drilln from ori(! place and remove it to another, and wheie a man has a large amount of lock or earth to remove by machinery, it is a great advan- tago to him to have a place to set his machinery at work, when he is dorio at one point, and keep it employed. I'A'.Kt'.). Have you been interested in any other work connected with tli miles of rotvd, 200 in .Sialo of Mew York and 100 in Connecticut. ]'.y,U'i2 Is there anything else connected with the Canadian Pacific Railway which you think proper to give by way of evidence? — There in nothing olse. IJi{M;;j. Hon. Wm. Macdongall: — I would like you, Mr. Chairman, to ask the witncHM, as he has mentioned my name in connection with him as U\a attorney, to ask him whether J have any relation to him in his t«ridt'r«, Hy the Chairman : — IIJJHM. You have mentioned Mr. Macdougall's name as attorney to Hon. Wra. Mao- whom f'otice should be given in case a further investigation is had Jlj^^JtV, *'^"tnj*st' u|)ori the subject of your claim : will you say whether you have had ""'y profcssion- Huy dufllirigs with him in connection with those lenders which you * ^' huvo niftdc, or whether you derived through him any information on thoHW Miibjccts in connection with any of those tenders? — No, never. 1 imvo never derived any information from him or paid him money, oxcunt ttM ftltorney. He has always told me that in case tho Georgian Way Mruncli matter came before Parliament ho, being a Member of Purlitttnent, should have to withdraw from the suit; but in case it went boforo the Court, of course it was then another matter, and ho could then act as my attorney. Has had oxperl- oncu iiutsldt! Canada. The above opinions baHed on hlM oxperlence. J. N. SMITH 956 ' Tcnderluv— C'OBtraotMo. 61. B.«;. Hon. Wm. Mac- dougall used no tutluencu for wlt^ nes8 and was wholly unac- quainted with hta tcndorH. 13965. lias ho exercised any influence, as far an you know, in his capacity an Member of Parliament on account of your claim, or in any other of those matters that you have been speaking of ? — Never to my knowledge. 139G6. Hon. Mr. Macdougall: — I would wish to get his answer more distinct Avith regard to the British Columbia matter, that veally I was not in his secrets at all, although I was his attorney and adviser on the other matter. 13967. The Chairman (to witness) : — Was Mr. Macdougall aware of your doings in connection with the British Columbia tenders ?— lie knew nothing about our lender. I suppose ho knew, j)orhaps, that we were g'^ing to bid. Ho knew I was here for that purpose, but he had no knowloiige whatever of the transactions between Goodwin, Ryan, myself and the Government. 139G8. Bid he take any part in assisting you in your tender either generally or particularly ? — He did not. 13969, Did you say there was nothing else that you could give by way of evidence ? —There is nothing else that I think o\'. 13970. The Chairman: — Before adjourning I wish to say that on Friday last the heating of evidence was then formally postponed until Monday morning; but inasmuch as the witness just examined appeared in the city, and wished to go away this evening, wo thought it better to hear him to day, rather than to ask him to wait until Mojiday, purticu- lariy as we were not sure of our power to detain him. 'f i I TRUDEAU. TrHnsiiortation of H»lll« — Contract No. 34, jA't by public competition. Ottawa, Monday, 8th November, 1830. ToussAiNT Trudeau's examination continued : By the Chairman : — 13971. Have j'ou the papei's now concerning contract 34, so as to give as any explanation of it?— Yes. 13972. What is the subject of the contract? — It is the transportation of rails, fish-plates and bolts fi-om Kingston to St. Boniface. 13973. Was it let by public competition ? — Yes, 13974. Have you the advertisement and any report upon the tenders ? — Yes; I pioduce it. (Kxhibit No. 154.) 13975. Ilavo j'ou the contract or a copy of it ?— Yes ; I produce it. (Exhibit No, 155,) 13976. There appears to be a change in the form of advertisement asking for tenders : canj'ou explain that and the reason of it ? — In the first advertisement dated '.^4th Fobruai-y, 1878, the time of delivery in Winnipeg was fixed at tho 15th July, This advertiscmer.t was can- celled and replaced by another in March, fixing the time of delivery for the 2,500 tons by the 1st of August, and the balance on the 15th September, 1878. 13977. The time for receiving tenders was not altered by this change of advertisement was it? — No. 957 TRUDEAU Tr I* im portatloit or KnIU— Conti-nctNo. 34. w, in hib 3r in any er to my iver more Uy I was jor on tlio aware of »•» ?— He , that we L he had in, Ryan, er either i give by that on )neil until appeared t better to r, particu- 1830. , 80 as to portation tenders ? rod nee it, rtiseraont ?— In the livery in wan can- delivery the 15tk is change Transportation from Fort 13978. In the descrii)tion of this contract in Mr. Fleming'rt Hpccial report of 1879 appears an item of tiansportation fiom Fort William : rrmllTort"""^" is that included in the advertisement for tenders or in the contract ? — wnnnin imnro. It is neither in the advertisomeni nor in the contract. ?Men'»in«'8'tieR^' 13979. Then it is improperly described, as forming a portion of this t-ontract; uopurt. contract, in Mr. Fleming's report ? — Yes. ^''*^"* 13980. Was that work performed from Fort William?— Yes. 13981. By whom ?--By the same company who performed contract 34 — the Noith-Wost Transportation Co. 13982. Was that work let by public competition ?— No. mu pSbiilfcom.'" 13983. How was the arrangement arrived at ? — I shall nearch for thi^ '"^ papers and produce them on some other occasion. 13984. Do you know whether there was any written agreement on the subject ? — There wore some letters. 13985. Has contract 34 for the transportation from Kingstoii been fulfilled ?— Yes. 13986. Has there been any dispute on the subject ? — No. 13987. Whatis the next contract?— Contract No. 35, with Cooper, '*2[,Vj;^>L Fairman & Co., for the supply of railway spikes delivered on the cwutractNo.35. wharves at Fort AVilliam and Duluth. cooper, Fair- III till A Oo* 13988. Have you the advei'tisement and any report upon the tenders ?— Yes ; I produce it. (Exhibit No. 156.) 13989. Have you the contract? — Yes ; I produce it. (Exhibit No. 157.) 13990. Does the question of duty enter into consideration at all in -deciding upon these tenders ? — Yes. 13991. In what way? — Parties from the United States when they send in goods pay the duty. 13992. The tender which was accepted was the lowest was it rot? — Tender accepted You "'6 lowest. 13993. Everything considered ? — Yes. 13994. Was there any duty upon these articles coming from England at that time ? — Spikes coming from England. Yes. 13995. Did these articles come from England under this conti'uct ? —No. 13996. Where were they made ? — At Montreal. 13997. Then they paid no duty of course ? — No. 13998. Could you have obtained the same articles at a lower price from other pereons tendering if no duty had been collected? — Yes. 13999. How much less would those articles have cost if furnished "by any other tenderore without paying duty — by the lowest of the other tenderers? — There was one tender from Dreworth, Porter & Co., for spikos delivered at Duluth within the United States at the rate of $48.16 ; and one from Dana & Co., also delivered at Duluth, at the rate of $48.86 per ton. 14000. And what was the contract price to Cooper, Fairman & Co. ? — $49.75 delivered at Duluth and Fort William, within Canada — that was in bond in Canada. The spikes mado ut Montreal. TRUDEAU 1158 ■' I ^ ) !« RnllMny Nplkm— CoBtract .\o. 35. Ooo|>ei> Falr> iiiHU A: <)u. Tlic nplln'S ponld liavo !)eoii fiir- iilHliod cliciiper at Diiluth If the iluty wore siil)- trncted. Practice in j-otisI- (toriiig value of t.t'iidor.s to loc'kon duty. NeohiiiK Hotel : OfllreM I'or Kiiglneeri)— Contract Mo. 38. Let to lowest tender. tlompleted. Total amount involved |3,4iX). Trnnsportatloii of Kall8— Contract No. 39. Let by public vomiietition. 14(»01. Tlio'i, but for tho nccoswity oi- cxpodioncy uC collocting duty. tlio«o ai'ticlos could have been luniisbed at this lowei- price ? — Tho\ could have been f'ui'niHlied so far as Dulutli was concerned, but a portion ot XU- spikcH wei'o rciiuiied at l'\»rt William. Then to the price ot tlelivery at Dulutli, it would have been necessary to add tho cost ot transportation from Diduth to Kort William at the exjient^e of tlw Government. , 1-1002, Do you know whether tho )>rice at h'ort William, if deliveied In eittier of those tonderors would have been necessarily liij:jber than ai Dulutli : do you know whether they were to bo ti'ansported by rail oi by b(.iat, bccauso if by boat throut^h tho lakes it is not likoly tiiut they would cost raoi'o at Foi't William ? -i do not. 1400o. Do you know wliothor thei'o wa.s any coi-i-ospondonco with eithei' of those American tendoi-ei-s to ascoi'lain whothor the delivery al Fort William would cost more or less than at Duluth? — There was no corresi)ondenc((. 14004. Do you know whether it has boon the practice in all cases in considering the relative advantage of tenders to add the duty ? — Yos. 14005. So that this matter was decided according to tho usual practice upon such subjocts ? — Yes. 14000. Has this contract beon completed ? — Yes. 14007. Has there been anj' dispute upon the subject ?— No. 14008. What is the next contract, in point of time, which we have not investi<(ated ? — Tho next contract is No. 3", but \ am not prepared on it. No. 38 is with Edmund Ingalls. 14000. Have you the contract? — Ves; I shall produce a copy latei-. J t is for the convei-sion of the Ncebing Hotel, at Fort William, int( offices for the engineering staff. 14010. Was the work let by public competition ?— Yes. 14011. To the lowest tenderer ?— Yes. 14012. Has it been completed ?— Yes. 14013. Has there been any dispute between tho (Government and the con tractor ? — N o. 14014. Is there any othei- matter connected with it which you think requires explanation ? — No. 14015. About what is the total amount involved in contract No. 38? —About 83,400. 14016. What was the next contract ? — No. 39, foi- the transportation of rails from Esquimalt and Nanaiino to Yale, British Columbia. 14017. Have you the contract or a copy of it? — I have not got it with me. 14018. Was the work let by public competition ? — Yes. 14010. Have you a copy of the adverti.sement or any report upon the tenders? — Yes; I produce a copy of the correspondence. (Exhibit No. 158.) 14020. Can you say how it was decided to do this work : I mean was it by Order-in-Council, or by the Minister, or upon a report by the y:.L> TRUDEAU :!lirig tluly. 30 ?— They It a portion pi'ico of the cost of IIHO of the if dclivoi'cd bor than at by rail oi y tiiut they lonco with delivery at ore waH no all eases in y ?— Yos. ual practice iO. ive have not )reparod on copy later, rilliam, int( lent and thu ih you think ■act No. 38 ? insportatioii imbia. 1 not ct tocoiii- pt'titloii hut not i>,y advi'itlscmfiif Kiriiis li> uhicli letters vvi'i'C sont. Bayloy 14031. Have you any report upon the offers made by any of tlioso firms? — I produce a report from Mr. Burpee in Mr. Fleming's office. (Exhibit No. 159. > 14032. This appears to bo a letter from Mr. Burpee accompanying the onjrinal documents, such as corrospondonco upon the subject; what I meant was a report as to the result or relative merits : havi- you anv report of that kind ? — 1 don't think we have such a report. 14033. Have you ascertained the relative value for the purj)osos kA' the Department and have vou any statement upon the subject? — Yes ; 1 produce one. (Exhibit No. 160.) 14034. About what is the date of the contract or agreement ?— The date of the order is about the 24th of June, 1879. 14035. And the time for delivery ?— The 15th of August, 1879. 14036. Were these subsequent contracts, Nos. 45, 46 and 47, considered about the same time by the Department? — Yes. 14037. What is the ]»rice paid on contract 44 per ton ?— £4 IPs. ster- ling. 14038. And on contract 45 ?— £5. 14039. Will you explain why, about the same time, a contract was given to one firm at £5, and to the other at £A 19s ; in other woi-ds, could you not get a larger quantity fj-om the first mentioned firm at No report lis to ii'ldtive merits. Order (liU<>(l •Jltli June, W7!t. '14—47. 11 litci. paid under contrtu't 14 ; £5 under contriuiUJ. TRUDEAU 060 v'l l*iir<*iii«Mii or '(''onlriK'ta 5IOa> 44—17. Ki'in^oiiK .vli.\ I'l uim |)!iliilract.s ties li%-«-i'cii III. miin> li'vnl. BnltM A- NiitN— Cnntrai't No. ir. Clrciiliirs NOiit to flrinH liiMteiid ol° wdveitlislnK. Boforo soiullnt; ■cinnilars, instead «>f advertlslnsi, tlie alttTiiiitlvo cuursos fully dis- cussed by Clilof Entflncor tind Minister. tlu) low |)i'ic«!?— In tho c>»rro.si)()ntlonco i luivo protliicod yon will find ;i lulti'i- tVoin tho West. CuniborltUKl Co. to Mr. Reynolds stiilins^ that Ihoy would not liko to iinr in fciciniiiig cir>„ulars of this kind, or at wlioso suggestion was this )ur8e a(lopLC(r.'' — This course was adopted at tho suggestion of tho * ief Engineo:-, as it, was urgent tliat rails should be obtained early ;ii the season, 14047. Do you know whether there was any discussioii as to tl.< possibility of this mode producing as low offers as the ordinavy mode of advertisements in newspapers? — Before adopting this course liio matter was fully discussed by tho engineers and tho Minister. (Evidence Continued Vol. //.) ou will find !i Htiitin/,' that (lolivcrod lit iilor.-itaii,!, by iuiiity which Stoel Co?— 3w Hii'mulito 3 of £5. 7c,s. I' 'f — For 0011- It Co., Bay. owes I teiulor iiat f')i|):irMty ■1 in Jjoiiclori, paitrnont as iny circulai'.s piodV—This J0!\ as itwn.s li m (o tl.< ioaiy iiiodo cour.sc! iho Dr.