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•

2 ?7/ Mais-A^ it., )it fy

DEBATE

THE S

■SJ

5$ i^ -^

^TE

THE TARIFF.

MAY 9th, 1870.

OTTAWA:

TIMES rUBLISIIING COMPANY, SPARKS STREET.

1870.

\\.

DEBATE IN THE SENATE

THE T^RII^^IT.

SENATE.

Ottawa, May 9th, 1870.

Tho SPEAKFR took the Chair at three
o'clock.

After some routine busmess,

The Bill " to amend the Acts respecting
Customs and Inland Revenue, and to make
certain provisions respecting vessels navi-
gxting the Inland Waters of Canada above
Montreal," w.is read a first time.

THE TARIFF

lion. Mr. CAMPBELL moved that the
Bill be read a second time at the next
sitting of the House.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER DE ST. JUST said
that he vould move in amendment that
the Bill be read that day six months, as he
was convinced that it would be most in-
expedient to pass a nuasure so contrary
to the interests of the people of the
Dominion. He was prepr-a-ed to acknow-
ledge that it was sound policy to interfere
as little as possible with money bills which
were sent up from the Commons; but, at
the same time, he felt that wlien measures
involving most important interests came
up for consideration, it became the duty
of the Senate, which was a sort of interme-
diary between the Crown and the people,
to take care that they did not sanction any
proceeding which would injuriously afi'ect
the public welfare. The measure before tiie
House imposed a lax on breadstuffs and
other articles of prime necessity, and it was
obligatory on the House to consider it with
great care before agreeing to its passage.
The manner, indeed, in which it had been
oarried through the other branch rendered
it more necessary for the Senate to con-
sider it with great circumspection. Eleven
out of thirteen members of the Govern-
ment had agreed that the policy they had
adopted was bad, and made a declaration
to tliat effect in the House ; but immedi-
ately afterwards it was found that their

views were reversed by tn-o others of their
colleagues. When it was seen that the
same Government which propounded one
policy in the afternoon, liad a diflerent one
in the evening, it was time for every man
who was anxious for the welfare of his
country to pause and consider the character
and effect of the measure, which had been
brought forward and passed in the Com-
mons under such extraordinary circum-
stances. Again, when it was founil that
the commercial cities of Quebec and On-
tario jiad declared themselves most em-
phatically in opposition to the moMure,
there was additional reason why the
Senate should interfere and save the
country from the consequences of a policy
which was so unsound. Breadstufts—
articles of primo necessity — were hence-
forth to be dearer, simply that the
Government might raise a revenue of about
eleven hun Ire.l thousand dollars ; but
surely some other moans could have been
devised to raise the amount without
burthening the masses of the people. No
doubt could exist in the mind of any one
that all the money requhed could have
been easily raised by imposing a small duty
on the luxuries of life instead of taxing the
necsssaries, which enter into the con-
sumption of the labouring class. The
House should also carefully consider the
effect of the policy upon the manufacturing
interests of the country. It was well
known how mmy difficulties stood in the
way of the establishment of manufactories
m this country— that they were chiefly
protected by the cheapness of the raw
material. Now it was obvious that the
moment a tax was imposed on the raw
product, there was a discrunination against
our manufacturing interests. Whether the
measure was considered with regard to our
manufacturing, our commercial, or our
shipping interests, it must be recogu zed
as embodying a policy most detrimental
to the best interests of thepominion ; and
he was convinced that the members of the
Government themselves, were they to re-

veal tlii'ir Hocret thouglits, would confisa
that lio wus right. IIo would acknowletlge
that tlio motion which he had made was of
iin ixtraordinary character, and if it had
been i)rncticablo he would have preferred
moving in another way. If ho could have
tlono HO, he would lia'c moved to amend
the Bill, for he did not wish to deprive the
Government of the means of meeting the
puldio expenditures. Not being al)le to
pursue such a cour.so, he had chosen the
mode customary in the House of Lords,
and moved the six months" hoist. But it
might be said what would be the result of
j'ejecting a measiu-e providing means of
meeting the public expenditure. It was
true there might bo a dlHculty, but it was
one that could be removed by the (Jovern-
ment. In the year 18.')6, the Supply Bill
came before the Legislative Council of
Canada, in connection with the question of
the selection of the Seat of (Jovernment.
The selection of the Seat of (Tovernmont
was one of the privileges of the ( 'rown, but
inasmuch as the Legislative Assembly had
moved in the matter, the Council contend-
ed that they had the same right to bo con-
sulted, and decided linally that inas-
much as they had been overlooked they
would refuse the Supply. The Bill was
proposed for the first reading, and imme-
diately afterwards, and previous to the
second reading, it was moved that the
House .'^hould dispense with the 19th Kule,
and for reasons set forth in the Kesohition
declare •' th it it cannot concur in the Bill
of Supply.'- The Bill was tiiken back to the
Assembly, and the objectionable pait of it
repealed; and then it was returned to the
Legislative Council, where it rece^-ed the
assent of the House. If it wore a.sked what
the Government could do if they were
refused the means of mo(>ting taxation, he
would reply that they could pursue the
course that was taken in ]8a6. They
would take back the measure and amend
it so as to make it conform with what was

the sentiment of the House and country

nay, the sentiment of eleven members of
the Govei'nmont. If taxation was requisite
to raise money, let it be im])Osed u])on the
luxuries of the rich iind well-to-do classes
of the people. The Senate should not
hesitate a moment as to the proper course
for it to pursue in the case of a measure
which was notoriously obnoxious to all
classes of the peoi)le of the Dominion, from
one end to the other. If the Senate were
to interpose its authority in order to pre-
vent such injurious legislation Jieirig fast-
ened upon the country, it woukl win the
gratitude of the people. In any .system of
taxation for general purjwses, e.acli Pro.
yince should ho placed on the same fo(jt-
ing. No section should be benefited to
the injuiy of another, and yet that was

Hon. Mr. Letellier de St. Just.

exactly what the Bill was domg. In New
Brimswick and (^uitbec the people were
obliged to get considerable quantities of
their coul. Hour and wheat from al)road ; in-
stead of affording them facilities for doing
so, the Government proposed liurthening
them with taxes on commodities which
they required. The people of (Quebec,
Montreal, Toronto and other places in the
Province of okl Canada, were to have their
fuel ta.xed, ostensibly for the purpose of
benefiting a partiiailar class in a single
Province. Such a policy would only i)er-
petuate sectional jealousies, and prevent
the harmonious working of Confederation.
If the Bill pa.ssed, he was persuaded that
it would create an amount of irritation in
Nevy Brunswick that must lead to the most
prejudicial consequences, and to show that
he was not speaking without authority, he
would refer to the representatives of the
Province in the House, who, he felt con-
vinced, would vote against the measure.
Those gentlemen would declare
that the policy m (juestion was des-
tructive of the best interests of the
Province— subversive of the Confedera-
tion- -and directly in the interests of
the .advocates of annexation to the
American Union. In the other Pro-
vinces the consequences would be efjually
serious: trade and enterprize would bo
cramped and the people irritated ; and
under these circumstances he could not
bring himself to believe that there could
be found oven a majority among the sup-
porters of the Ciovernment pre2)ared to
sanction a policy whii'li was so ojiposed to
the true principles of economic science
and antagonistic to the true interests of
every section of the Dominion.

Hon. Mr. WILMOT followed, and said
that lie had no doul)t whatever that the
moticn of thehon. m(>mber for Grandville
was perfectly constitutional — entirely in
accordance with the iiractic^ of the House
of Lords as well as of the Council of the
old Province of Canada. He had little
hesitation in .seconding the motion, from
the fact that he knew that the Bill, as it
had pi., sed the other liranch of the Legis-
lature, would not meet with the approval
of the people of the Province from which
he came. He regretted that in almost all
measures relhtivo to Cu.stoins, he had been
obliged to express opinions contrary to
the (iovornment of the day. The increase
in the duties upon articles of necessity
had naturally created a great deal of
irritation in the Province of New Bruns-
wick, and atlcled to the dissatisfaction that
had already existed there. In maturing
a tariff; every care should be taken not to
press heavily upon the masses, or em-
barrass trade and enterprise ; and he must
acknowledge that such would be the ef-

g. In New
leoplo were
uimtities of
al)road ; in-
2s I'or doing
liui'thoning
ties which
of (Quebec,
•kicew in the
o hnve their

purpose of
in a single
(1 only per-
lul prevent
ifedenition.
uaded that
rritation in
to the most
o .show that
ithority, he
ives of the
i felt con-
B measure,
declare

was des-
ts of the
Confedera-
nterests of
m to the
other Pro-
be e^iually

would 1)0
lated ; and

could not
here could
g the sup-
irei)ared to
ojiposod to
nic science
nterests ol

I, and said
'cr that the
■ (frandville
entirely in

the House
ncil of the

had little
otion, from
3 Bill, as it
' the Legis-
i approval
I'om which

almost all
e had been
ontrary to
lie increase
f necessity
it deal of
ew Bruns-
action that
maturing
ken not to
!s, or em-
id he must
be the ef-

fect of the present measuie. If the Gov-
ernment liati chosen to aid two and a
half per cent, to the ad valorem duties,
they would have raised a large limil in a
less objectional)lo way. But the uvw tariff
mposeil certiin specific, in addition to the
ad valorem duties ; and merchants would
have to make additional entries, and be
subject to mucii trouble and inoonvonitnce.
It was the true policy to havo a tariff of
as simple a character as i)Ossiblo ; liut tiie
jiresent me.isure only oomplicate<l matters.
The measure was called •' a national poli-
cy," on the ground that it was intondeil
to meet the policy adopted by the United
States with respect to oursoh os since the
repeal of the Kecijirocity Treaty. Look-
ing at it even from that stand-point, he
considered it ui\ju3tiHable. Before de-
cici'ng on the measure, the Government
should liive considered more carefully
whether it bore fairly on nil interests anil
sections, and was not calculated to bmeht
one locality or class at the expense of
the great majority. As respects the differ-
ential duty on salt, he had been under the
impression that under the Koyal instruc-
tions no such tax could be imposed. Gen-
tlemen connected with trade were aware
that coal was brought from Great Britain
a? ballast, and conse(iuently could be pro-
cured by our manufacturers and others at
a lower price than would otherwise be the
case. If coal hatl been chu'gcd an ad
raforem duty on the cost at the vlace of
production, the duty would not have been
felt, and it would have been able to com-
liete with the coal coming in from the
L/nited States, where the cost is consider-
ably higher. In whatever pjint of view ho
looked at the question, ho was convinced
that he was bound to vote for the rejec-
tion of the Bill. If it were rejected, ' he
thought that the Government would have
no difficulty in finding tlie means to meet
their obligations, especially as the amount
they required was very small. If the con-
sideration of the (juestion was postponed
for another year, they might be able to ma
turo a system which would meet with more
general acceptance. As respects the duty
on pickages, he added, he was sure that
it would cause a great deal of diisatisfac-
tion among importers, on account of the
complicated nature of tlie system. It
must bo considered, too, tint the pack-
ages, although costing considerable at the
place of shipment, were of little value at
the i)lace of arrival ; and it was, therefore,
manifestly unfair to tax such packages.
For these and other reasons, lo hoped that
the Senate would agree to reject the Bill.
^ lion. Mr. CAMPBELL replied that the
Government, in his opinii.ai, had some
reason to complain of the course that had
been pursued by the hon. member for

Grandvillo, e.spooially in view of the man-
ner in which iiuhlio business liad been con-
ducted in th It branch of the Legislature.
The Government might ha"o e.\pe<!te(i
that if the hon. member had decided to
pursue the usuid course of miiking such a
motion on the first reading of the Bill,
he would have taken the opportunity ot
informing them of bis intentions. He did
nut think that anything that had occurred
I during the present or previous session
i could warrant h.m intal<ing the course that
: ho had and surprising tlie (iovernment
' (laughter on the Upi)osition side).

I Hon. Mr. LETELLIER DE ST. JUST did
not suppose that the lion, member wished
to attribute motives to any one.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL meant that tlia
only interi)retation that the Government
could draw from the coiu'se of the hon.
gentleman was that he wished to surprise
them. It was not usual to make suck
motions until the Bill had come up for its
second reatling. However, the Govern-
ment were (juito content that the discussioa
should take place at that stage, though
he did feel that they might well hava
been informed of the intention of the
gentlemen opjjosite. Tho Government were
(juite prepared to defend their policy, and
discuss it on its merits, in the conhdence
that it would rece.ve the sanction and ap-
proval of a majority of the House. He did
not think tha, the hon, member hatl fairly
considered — and he hoped certainly that
others would do so — tho position in
which he would place the House with ref-
erence to the Bill of Sujiidy before them.
Honourable gentlemen should remember
that they were sent to the House, not
merely for the purposes of the present
Parliament,but to est d)lish asystem which,
it was to be hoped, would last for ages ;
and that the example they were now set-
ting would hiHuence those who should oc-
cu^jy their se its hereafter. Under these
circumstances the House should proceed
with great caution and reflect, not simply
ell the results of their action for the mo-
ment, but with reference to the future
legisl ition of this country. If it was really
desirable, — and he believed it was — thit
there should be a second Chamber of th©
Parliament in this country, it became of
great importitnce that the House should
confine itself to strict constitutional prac-
tice and usage, and that it should not be
diverted by any temporary reasons from
the course that it ought to pursue with
reference to matters which come especially
within the piirv ew of the oti^r
branch of the Legislature. Now he
was of opinion that a Bill regulating th©
tariff was hardly ever rejected m the upper
branch. Every one admitted that it could

not bo iimoridod, iind, tliorofore, the lion
niemboi- hud moved that it be rojfcted en-
tirely. That WHS a courHo which' had never
been Uikon ii. the Parliiiment of C.inulu

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER de St. JUST —I
have just referred to such a case.

lion. Mr. C^AMl'BELL did not con.sider
It fully in point. Such a course w.i.s not
foUowo<l either in the Parliament of Can-
nda or m the Imperial Legislature, ile
had endeavoured to awcertain the practice
ol the liiitLsh Pailianient, and the only in-
stance, of late years, where the House of
Jvords had interfered with the action of the
Commons on a money Bill wi,s in the case
of the Paper Duty Bill, which was not a
measure involving a general tariff; like that
now und.-r consideration. Why was it that
the Tariff' Bill was never rejicted ? Be-
cause It iiad been passed by the House of
Commons,- the hotly which represented
the people, and was specially charged with
the imposition of taxation, Therefore it
was understood, tliat in accordance with
the Constitution, the Commons had the ex-
clusive right-and they had ever success-
fully vinilicated it— to deal with such
matters. Gentlemen who would look
luto the matter would find that after the
measure m question was rejected by the
Peers, Lord Palmerston roi'terated in the
strongest terms the exclusive right of Par-
Uamint to de:>l with such matters ; and
the result was that next session tlie same
measure was adoi)ted i)y the House of
Commons and went to the Lords where it
passed witli the Bill of Supply. His hon
friend opposite had referred to the case
that occurred in I8.J6 when the Legislative
Council objected to the course pursued
with reference to the seat of Government
In that case the Bill could be amended
without difficulty, by striking out the
Item providing for the expenses of the
seat ot Government. But the same thing
could not be done to the present Bill It
must be amended by supplying new items ;
andtheresut of the passage of the mo-
tion ot the hon. mem her would be that
tne matter would have to be reconsidered
in the House of Commons— that the mem-
bers would have to be summoned from all
parts of the country, and the
session consequently indefinitely

delayed, wliilst a new tariff was
mtroduced and all the usual forms pro-
ceeded with. He could not understand
bow gentlemen could deem it their duty
on a question of such a nature
to vote as the honourable gentl.^man's
resolution proposed. The effect of the
passage of such a motion must be to bring
the Senate into collision with the other
branch of the Legislature. He would call
attenti n — for it was a case

t.ie feeling that was exhibited, when an
address came to the Senate asking that its
clerk should be examined by a Committee
ot the Commons with ro-spect to the in-

Hon. 3Tr. Campbell

in point — to

Jemnity an<l m leage of hon. members.
1 h It was considered a matter of privilege
?"«' 'ho ilouso refused permission to allow
Its ctHcer to be examined with respect to
Its accounts. Could it be supposed, then
that there would be no irritation in the
totnmons were the Senate to interfere
with their action respecting a measure
immediately within their i)urvicw, and of
which they are traditionnlly jealous ? Was
<t likely that they would recede from
thor position and allow them-
selves to be dictited to by the
Senate in reference to a measure which
must ongniato with themselves, and
which IS especially under their control in
accordance with our constitution? He
could not believe that those who wished to
see the Constitution preserved intact and
hmded down to j)08terity, were ready to
sanction any course which womd create
jealousies between the two branches of tlie
Legislature, andjeonardize the harmonious
operation of our legislative machinery.
J iiere'ore he would ask hon. gentlemen
in view of the future, and the security and
hu-mony of our Constitution, not to ap-
prove ot a course which was revolutionary
ami calculated to bring the two
Houses into serious conflict. With
these remarks respecting the con-
stitutional aspect of the question, he
would now refer to the merits of the mea-
sure Itself. It had been .said that there
were eleven members of the Government
really oi^posed to the present policy ; but
the fact was, that there was no division at
all in the Cabinet on the subject, and that
the Government were a unit and h:td so ttled
oil their policy after grave deliberation
and under the conviction that it was cal-
ciil ited to promote the interests of the
whole Dominion. The question was ne-
cessarily attended with difficulty— it could
not be an easy task to arrange a tariff' satis-
factory to the whole Dominion. If hon
gentlemen, who might hereafter find them-
selves members of a Cabinet, believed
that they would be able to frame such a
policy as would meet with universal ap-
proval, they would soon recognize their
mistake. It had been the desire of the
Government to frame a tariff" that
would embrace the interests of the
whole Dominion. The leading idea
was to protect the fisheries, and stimu-
L-ite certain great interests in all the Pro-
vinces. We had been endeavouring for
years to obtain a renewal of the Recipro-
city Treaty, but all our patience and for-
bearance had been perfectly futile; and
under these circumstances it became a

Ijited, wlion an
I asking that its
;>y a Committoe
pect to the in-
Hon. members,
or of privilege,
nission to allow
with respect to
Lipposed, then,
ritation in the
e to interfere
ng a measure
urvit^w, and of
jealous ? Was
I recede from
illow them-

to by the
neasure which
insolves, and
fieir control in
titution ? lie
who wished to
red intact and
were ready to
womd create
ranchoE of the
le harmonious
e machinery.
>n. gentlemen
e security and
n, not to ap-
revolutionary
g the two
iflict. With
; the con-
question, ho
■s of the mea-
d that there

Government
t policy ; but
no division at
ject, and that
idlwd settled

deliberation
t it was cal-
erests of the
tion was ne-
ilty— it could

a tariff' satis-
on. If hon.
ier find them-
let, believed
frame such a
iniversal ap-
iognize their
lesire of the

tariff" that
sta of th»
eading idea

and stimu-

all the Pro-
ivouiing for
;he Recipro-
mce and for-

futile; and
t became a

matter for consideration whether it w.is not
advisable to pursue sucii a policy as would
keep our Hsiiorios within our own control
and stimulate couiinorcial intercourse be-
tween ourselves. The (iovcrnmont linully
adopted the present policy; and, gonlle-
inen, when tlioy objected to the ilutios on
wheat and coal, and other items in th •
t;iiiti; should remember that each and all
wore part of a general system, Dfficulties
arose, Hulise((Uont to the introduction of
the new policy, anil it w.n iipiirchemlca
lor a wliilu that the siuid'on of a nnjoiity
in the other branch woukl not bo given to
the scheme as u whole. I'ndor such cir-
cumstances, and anxious to avoid a crisis
at a very trying period in our alfiirs, tiio
< Jovermnont deviated snincwhat from their
policy for a time. Imt only to come l)uck
to it when they found it was i'ullv in ace .rd
with the majority. It hid been said by
tlio hon. member opposite that the (arilf
proposed to tax breadstufls and other ne-
cessiries of life. Now he (Mr. t'ami)!)cll>
denied that coal was a necessary of life.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIEU DE ST. Jl'.ST
explained tint he had said " Breadstuff's
and other articles of i)rime necessity."

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL replied that nine-
tenths of the people were farmers wjio did
not use coal in any shape, and to them it
was not a necessary of lit'e. Coal was n.<ed
chiefly in manufactures— certainly in Onta-
rio, and did not enter into the consump-
tion of the general connnunity in the up-
per Province Now, if a duty on woo( I had
been proposed, that would have lieon a
tax on the masses. Honourable gentle-
men coming from the large cities, knew
perfectly well where the pressure on the
<luestion originated. Take for instance,
his hon. friend from Toronto (Mr. ^Icl'her'-
son) who was smiling in his usual mi<'ni-
licentway; he was at the head of a Lu'ge
establishment, which consumed largequan-
titics of coal. The tariff' might atlect such
an establishment in the city, but it certain-
ly did not interest the rural constituency
which he (Mr. Camiibell) represented.
Lven m Toronto, the consumers of coal
were exclusively to Ijo found among the
wealthy clisses, and the same might be
said of Ottawa, ami other towns.
But under any circumst mces. coal was not
an article of greater necessity than clotluni'
or boots and shoes, and vet those juiicle"
wereheivily taxed. It' was onlv a few
manufacturing establishments, after all
that had any real interest in the f]uestion
ot coal, so far as Ontario and the rural dis-
tricts of Quebec were concerned. The
arguments that had been adduced against i
other feitures of the tariff' were equally I
fallacious. Diil any one suppose th it we
were going to piy more for bread in conse- 1

i|uen>'e of the iinignilic mt tax on Ameri-
can Hour and wheat'/ The mijorityofour
our pooi)|e made th( ir own Hour, and could
supply their friends hi the Lower I'rovin-
cos with all that they re(iuirc<|. By en-
courag ng the coal of Nova .Sctia and the
Hour of (Jntario, cominercial intorcour.-o
would be encouraged between the two
Provinces, and the Confederation nors-
sarily strengtiiened. The (invernmont
had been led to umlerstaiid that a > ery
smill duty wouKl oualilo the coal owners of
Nova .S'oti I to supply the Dominion with
fuel. It was a wise jjolicy to make one
Province supply the wants of tiio other,
and keep the D</minion as in lepondent as
possible of the Americins. During the
rebellion in the Cnitod Statc.i, it wouM bo
remeinbereil that the (Icvornment issued
an order prohibiting the exportation of
coal altogether.

Hon. :\Ir. McI'HER.SON— That was only
anthracite coal, which cannot be got iu
Nova Scotia.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— The prohibition
might have been i)ut on all kinds of coal •
and it was wi-e to guard against such'
dangers in the future. All should unite
in building up an Intercolonial Trade, and
stimulating native industry. He had been
toldby amtmber of the Legislature that
the result of the policy of the American'
in the particular just refcrreil to, had beei'i
to jeopardize the operations of a large es-
tablishment on liiike Erie, and the owner
confessed that he would rather see a dol-
[ lara ton put on coal thin be agiin sub-
ject to the same difficulty. The tax would'
soon be considered a Ijlessing if it had the
effect it was expecded to have— of sujiply-
ing our own coal to all parts of the Domin-
ion. He found that the Americans im-
posed ifl.2r> on Iiitumiiions coal, 4(J per
cent on the anthraci ,, '20 per cent a
bushel on wheat, and wheat H .ur, 10 per
cent on rye. Situate I as the Dominion
was, alongsitle of the United States, it
was necessary to shape our policy with
reference to theirs. He would not, how-
evei', dwell at any gre der length on the
question. He was himself most in-
Huenced by the constitutional aspect of
tlie subject, and ho implored hon. ' gen-
tlemen, before voting for the amendment,
to consider the conscipiences that would
ensue by coming hito collision with the
other branch of the Legislature, and the
effect of the example they would give to
those who succeeded them in the Senate.

ilon. Mr. MILLER said he rose with some
diffidence to address the Senate on the im-
portant question underconsideration, after
the very earnest ami persuasive speech of
the hon. Postm ister General. Tliat hon,
gentleman, from his ability an I position,

iiH woli 118 (Vom lii-i j^i'oiit pcMMoiiiil iioiitilnr.
ity, <li'MTVo.lly puHst'.ssod ^rout inlliiojice
with tlu) lloiiso, ..nU lii.H lii'fli io;<;ii<l for
him m:i(io It 11 vt'iy iinploiusiiuf, duty tooi).
' I'OJio him on tho pieaont ouoasiou. Jim ho
l)ohovt'(l im u roincseutitivo IVom (hn I'm-
vinco of Novii Ncotiti, it w.is his diiiv to
• 'l.poMo tlio Jtill b(.|(>r,, thil N..ii:it . "Not
only did ho ^.J^'l•ot lu'iii«ol.li>.od tojissiimo
it poHitioii of aiitaj,'oiiisiu towards Ins liou.
triond, hut Iio w.m also sony to I o coiti.
poiUid to i)laco liimselr in hostility to tho
(ioviTiuiu'iit of which tho lion, goiitlomiin
rtiw a distin«iiisht)d nionihor. Smco he
ua<l tho honour of iisoiit in tho Sonato, }io
had tiivon tho Uovcrnnu.-nt a cordial and
unwuvonng support, ovjn when in many
canes, his convictions lent only a (iiialiliod
approval to their acts. Coining as ho ditl
to this House strongly commuted to the
great exporimont of Uovorninent, which
under (;onfedcration,tho I'rovi.Ku-s of Jhit'
ish North Aiucrica wore endeavouring to
work out. and deeply mterestod as he w,is
in the success of that exi)orimcnt, ho had
lelt it his duty on all possible occasions to
give tho friends of thumoasuro his humhlo
a.Msistanco. ilc iiad not yot lost faith, al-
though many ol its earliest advocates had
in the great scheme of building up on Brit-
ish soil ,11 this continent a NowNitional-
ity under u .sound j.olicy and an ccon.jnii.
cal administration of public atliiirs. If
<lisaster were to overtake tliis great exjieri-
inent, it would bo in consc(|uen(e of the
mcai)acity of our rulers, and thoir want
of wisdom 111 forchig on tho country such
vicious legislation as the Lill i)elore
tl«3 'louse. To that Bill ho wii decidodly
opposed, as unsound in principle, and cei

tun to prove unjust m its operation, anl
injurious to the host interests of the whole
Dominion. JJut much as ho depid'atcd
the Bill itself, ho would iiilinitely pr.^fer
tho passage of a tariff a dozen tinies more
obnoxiuus to tho count:y, than that bv
any means this S mate slraild concur in the
oxtr.iordinary constitutional doctrine laid
down by the Hon. J'ostm ister General as
to their 2)ower to deal with a mousure of
this k,nd (hear, iioai). Against that doc
trine he j.iotostod. and called on this
Jlouse to protest in tho strongest nnnner
(hear, hoar). He regretted to hearsolibdi
an authority as the hon. gentleman dTs-
puting the uiinii.ililied right of the Jlouse
to exorcise a deliborative judgment upon
this Bill, ami to reject it if they .saw lit.
He must tell tlie Hon. I'ostmistertieneral
that this do('triiie was contrary to ;,ll ])re.
cedent, and it was neces.^nv ihit it should
bo met and its f dlicy exposed on its lir^t
assertion in this body (hear, hear). The
])rivilegos of this IIou.se in resi)ect to '
Money JJills were at Iwist equal to those of
the House of Lords, an I the Commons of
Hon. Mr. Miller. 1

hnglijiil hill invariably concctled to that
lirimch of tho Legislature th • right to deal
wilh such Bills, iM a whole, cither by ns-

seliting to or lejecting ;heni. l)isputOH

had from time to time iui-(Mi botwe. n tho
two Houses of I'arlianieni in England dur-
ing the last two or three hundred years as
to th« light claimed bv the Lords to ajucnd
Money JiilU— a cfuiii whih liad now in
pr.ictico been abandoned, but no dispute
could fairly exist as to tho aiisolute right
of rejection of such Bills by the I'jiper
House. :May, a great authority on rarlia-
mentary practice, said:— "The Lords were
not originally precluded from amending
Bills of .Supply; for there are numerous
cases on the Journals hi which tho Lords'
ftinenilments to such Bills wore agreed
to." I'racticall}', ho admitted this right
of amendment hiul been abandoned,
hy the Lords, and lio did not claim it for
the .Senate of this Dominion. But ho did
claim, and lie was sorry to hear it denied
or doubted in any .juarter, that thi- Uou.so.
under tho practice and i)rocoflonts of tl' >
Jlouse of Lords, possessed the right— tL„
undoubted right— to reject this Tariff Bill,
or any other moasiiro emanating from tho
Commons. Wore the .Sennte to adopt the
position the Hon. Tostmaster (ieneral
asked tiiem to take— to acknowledge that
they had no right todeal with tlie (juestiou
before it, then they would establish a
lirccedent that wcjuld bo quoted for all
time to come against this body. (Heir,
hear.) They would yield their right to ex-
ercise those functions which they ought to
enjoy im.ler the ( 'oiistitution. In onh^r to
understand tluir true position, ho would
turn the attention of tho lluuse to tho
functions of the House of Lords in re-
ference to Money votes. Ho might
strengthen his position by old authorities,
but would not go back further than the
celebrated Conference of the Lords and
Commons in ICiTl, on a question of tliis
character. Then the Lords compliined,
m the linguage of their own Resolution,
'' that by a new maxim of the Commons a
hard and ignoble choice is left to the
Lords, eitlier to refuse the Crown Sujiplies
when most necessary, or to consent to
ways and projiositions of aid which neither
tlieir own judgiiu'iit nor the good of the
people can admit." Hero evidently the
right of alteration and amendment wa.s
contended for, and whit was tho answer of
the Commons? "Your Lordships first
reason i, from the happiness of the Con-
stitution tli.c the two Houses are mutual
checks on each other. Our answer is, ' So
they are still,' for Ymir LonUiip.i have a
ni'ijitth-c U, ill,; icJiok'.'' In contradiction to
w-hat had fallen from the linn. Postmaster
'ieneral. ho asserted th 't until this dav,
the light admitted Ly the Commons in

;e(lp(l to that

i'i;irlit to deal

ei tiler l,y ns-
11. I)iHiiutos
I liotn'ci II tlio
Kiigland due-
ilii'd yciii','^ iiH
H'dsto umond

Imd now in
it no (lisimto
Iwoliito right
,• tho Ujiper
ty on I'liAlii-
10 Lord.s wei'O
ni anionding
10 nuinoious
1 tlio Lords'
were iigrced
d this light

abandoned,
claim it I'or

But ho did
sar it doniod
t till- Uouso.
dents of th >
3 right— th„
iHTaritrBill,
ng I'loiM tlio
to adopt the
ter (Jeneral
)wledge that
tho fiuestion

estaijlish a
oted i'or all
idy. (Heir,
' light to ex-
ley ought to

In order to
1, he would
(jiise to tho
^ords in re-

JIo might
autliorities,
icr than the

Lords and
tion of tliis
■ompliined,
Ifesolution,
Commons a
eft to the
ivn .Sui)plies
consent to
lich neither
;ood of the
idently the
dmont was
10 answer of
Iships first
if tlio Con-
tra mutual
wer is, ' So
i/is Ji((ve a
iidiction to
Postmaster
il this day,
jmmons in

tliiit oelohrato I c.iho hiH novnr boon yield-
ed on tho 0110 hand, or mu . ossfully (|ueM
tionod on the* other. Ho li. llongod the
hoiioiiralilo gontleiiiin to eite an inst in<<!
in whieh it had. Again, in lOH'.i, when tho
I'oll Hill w.is amended \>y tho Ihui.so of
Lords, the ComnioiiH insisted it was n
hrouch of privilege, and this was tho
language of their renionstraneo : "The
Lonh cannot alter the grant i)ropo.sed, or
otherwise interpose in such a Ihll than to
pass or reject tlie same, without alteration
or amendnunt.'' Coidd any admission of
the right to reject ho more dear or em-
jdiatic than those expressions, not of hasty
action, hut of soloniii dclitieration on tho
part of tho Commons?

iron. Mv. CAMrUELL— <Jan you cito a
ease in which tliis right has lieen exercised
in modern times ?

Hon. Mr. MILLEU could cito many

f-ases in proof of his i)osition. In IT.Vs, a
Bill to repeal tho duties iiayahle on tallow
imported from Ireland, having boon sent
to the JiOrds from tho rommons, was ro-
joctod by that House. In itlTl, a Bill for
tho imposition of duty on fonigii commo-
tlities was also rejected l)y the Lords. But
coming to more recent o.ises, in 178'.», a
Bill i'or placing a duty on cocoa-nuts,
which liad received the sinction of the
Commons, was thrown out in the L'ppor
Jlouse. In ISOT, a Bill for imposing cer-
tain duties on malt was rejecto I by the
Lords. In the same year a Bill to abolish
payments to officers of Customs in Ireland
was disallowed Avitliout remonstrance. A
Bill passed tho 1 louse of Commons in
1811 to suspend for a year tho duty on
corn-wash for the distillation of spirits in
England. That was a Bill of great imjior-
tanee, involving revenue to the amount of
ono million and a half of jiounds, and
underwent a long discussion in the Com-
mons. In both Houses the ministers took
an active part in tho debates. Yet tho
Bill was rejected by the Lords, and no
complaint was made on the 2)art of the
Commons. On the contrary, when the
Chancellor of the Exchernier introduced a
few days afterwards a Bill to provide for
tho loss of duties; he said, "I introduce
this Bill in consequence of the rejection of
a Bill by the other House."' (Hear, hear.)
llii would not troulilo tho Senate with i'ur-
ther cases, until he caino to the remark-
able Bill for the repeal of tho paper duties
in 1800.

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— What I mean to
say is, that my hon. friend cannot cite me
a case in which the Lords have rejected a
Tariff Bill.

Hon. Mr. MILLER - Perhaps not, but
why 'I The necessity for doing so could
hardly have arisen under tho practice of

tlio Hou-o of (-'ommoim prior to IStiU,
(Hear, heir). Wiiat was that practi(!0?
The hon. gentleman is as well acquaintetl
with it as any memiier of this House. Ha
well knows that in the rurliament of Enj.
land, until very recently, most of tho Bilfii
of Supply and Taxation related to spoeilio
commfHlitios. I'reviously to Isdo, a great
portion of tho revenue there was raised by
Acts imposing duties, so to speak, in ilo-
tail. Separate Acts wore pa.sHod placing
duties on <litlerent articles, any ono of
which, if obnoxious, couM bo rejected by
the Lords, without endangering tho whole
fiscal policy of the Administration. If
therefore an unjust or objectionable tax
were proposed to be imposi-d by tho Com-
! mens, it would come before tho I^rds, not
in the Taritl'Bill, but usually in a separate
Bill to bo consideretl on its own merits.
Nearly all debateablo taxation was intro-
duced in that way, every item had to
stand or fall by itself. Ilonco the
reason why no necessity had occur-
red of rejecting a Tariff Bill. But
the right claimed and exorcised, the pr'ii-
ciple involved in the rejection of any mouoy
Bill, applied to tho Tariff as a whole, aa
well as to tho Tariff by items or parts. Tho
reverse of this proposition was too absurd
for argument (Hear, hear). In this coun-
try our practice had been ilitterent. Our
Tarifl Bills iueliRled nearly all tlescriptions
of taxation and supply. Tho Minister of
Finance gave no opportunity to Parlia-
ment of passing on sjiecilic items, apart
from tho general policy of tho (iovernment.
All wo coiilil do was to reject tho whole Bill,
if we considered it contained items of un-
wise or unjust taxation. Cur right to do
this should not bo doubted, and must be
.settled and admitted (hear, hoar). Would
it 1)0 .said that while under the practice
and precedents of tho House of Lords, we
had the right to reject Tax Bills in detail,
we had not tho right to do so when tho
substiinco of such Bills came before us in
the aggregate form of a Tariff Bill ?

The Hon. Postmaster (ieneral told the
Senate tluit this was tho first time since
its creation on which hon. gentlemen were
asked to pass a resolution such as that be-
fore the House, and he warned them
against the precedent their decision would
I estalilish. aiul tho example it woukl set.
j Ho would earnestly reiterate the warn-
j ing of the hon. gentleman. He begged to
j remiiul tho House that they were, lo some
I extent, called upon to establish a prece-
; dent, and hi tho words of tho Hon. Post-
master (ieneral, set an example for
I future imitation (hear). What were that
I precedent and that example to be 'I A
I servile surrender of their undoubted rights
j or an S uiie(iuivocal assertion of them ?
i That Avas the issue the Postmaster General

had placed before the h'enato, and
those who supported him must a<lopt
the degrading doctrine he propounded,
•or his part, he should prelir that thi
body should conso to exist rather than en-
. orso such a doctrine. Was it not more

Wv uiTr. ""f- r^^l^berative Assem
l)ly— that body which occupied tlio hidiest
position under the constitution-to dclib
erate where it was contended they had no
ight t . del. berate-but simplv, under to
hction of deliberation, to lo echo lo
wishes of tlie other brancli, and perfo na
no functions of tlieir own ? If tl,c Sem to
;vore intended as a check on thfpori '

ot the Dominion, ospociallv the smaller
ones itwnnldbe moit miwise and S
al, they would bo deposin- them^eh-es
irom the higli position they should occuw
^vere tlioy to s.y tliat thev had no i?S?^

Sm "'Ae.T as the 'one now"brfoJe
tiiem. Jherelore he agreed with tl,o
Postmaster General that' the co se t le
Senate would now pursue would be con
mdered as a precedent in the future ami
It was most impoV Mt, it should not be
such as would hereafter be cited aJhniit
ing their functions. He would especiX
press tins po.nt on hon. gentlemen^ rS
«entmg the smaller Provhices in die Con

SVnor'n"- ^"i '^^ constitution of tSs
.Vnat,, the weaker Provinces were guai. m-
^ed a pro ection against the enSch-
ments of the more nowerfnl
commumties of the Dominion.^ In tie
House ot Commons, Ontario or Quebec
^n easily over-ride the wishes of Nova

K tt We .f ""^^™^^ ^" ^"^ 1"estiom
for hm^ fi """ ''T ''^''^ ^^'-y flifterent,
IZii 1 "'® ^*™^"e'" Provinces unitec
could always resist unjust legislation It
was essential to the interests of these Pro
vmcesthat their representative hi thl

t xefancK^ '°".'-'°^ *^° impositL of
ta\es and the granting of supplies The

iinfe'Tn^Tf^'t"?^*"^^ M^Stime Pro
vmcfc, m the Senate was given for tne nu.-
pose of acting as a check on he mo. J

Fn Tli?o\r^'''^ ?' '"^^ Confederation

OfS % f '^™""'^ °*' *lie Legislature

Of what value would this check be, ^f the,"

yieul un the ffreni, vi-Tl.f „„,i -,..•.•', "'^

yieul up the g,-eat right and privi e4 of
con .filing taxation and tlic expendifures
oftheCrovernment? (Hear, hia, ) Xe-'

o.e, guard the pnviloges of this' .Senate
with a jealous care, as in it thev may -,1
wayshnd a safeguard against inVsHce or
owH^ssion. He feared he was\veSing

ritter the speech o*' the hon. Postmaster
General he felt it should l,e fully ,li„d
(hear, hoar.) He had alluded to the great

the British Parliament in I'iGO. If the
Hon. Mr. Miller.

House would indulge him, he would quote
, the opm.ons of some of the eminent men
Who took part m the debate on that
question, as to the privileges of the Upper
House in relation to Mo icy Bills. The
great speech of that occasion, in favour
ot those privileges, was made by Lord
Lyndhurs , then in his eighty-eighfh year
^nff^'-f"" ""'/"'^ argument, that great
authority used this language :_" I take
eave to say that there is°nor an instance
to be found in which the House of Com-
mons has controverted our right to leioct
Money Bills. Over and over again, I ''re
peat It nothing can be found in the Par-
hamentaiy .Journals, or in any histo-y of
Parliamentary procoodin.'s, to show that
our riglit to reject Money Bills has been
questioned.- Lord Monteigle, who fol!
[lowed in the discussion, and who in a
H?2''^'n "l'S".nie.it moved the rejection of
the Bill, said in reference to the- speech of

le rned Iriend s speech, I do not think that
any one will be disposed to question the
n^}LT\TT^\'^^'^ "2lit of the House,
admitted by high autliorities, andsanction^
by uncontradicted practice, to deal with
any Money Bill, as a whole, either by ac

d!&T°'wTf^"^ '^■' I" the same
cltbate Lord Chelmsford expressed himself
as follows: « We are all agreed as to the
privileges of the two Houses of Parliament
with respect to Money Bills. We are
agreed with reference to Bills of Supi^lv
and Taxation, that your Lordships have, at
all events, the power to reject them. You
have, to some extent, admitted you have
no power to alter Money Bills." Lord
; Derby ^zsed language to the same effect,
[ and he could quote Blackstone and other
high authorities in support of the constitu-
tional right of the Upper Branch of Parlia-
ment to deal, as a wiiole, with all Money
Bills. He was only surprised that in the
face of such authorities tlie leader of the
Crovernment in this House would disimte
the privilege for which he contended. But

^^''•"11"' ^' '''''' *■«'■ tl^e fii'st tune, he
considered the argument should be fairly
and fully met antl answered (hear, heir)
He would no^v say a fe^v n-orcls with re-
spect to the merits of tlie measure itself
which had been heralded as a portion of a
great national policy. The framers of the
policy harl certainly been fortunate in their
.selection of a name, whatever might be
Its shortcomings in other respects. No
doubt they felt that unpleasant things
n?nfn t; T'^'^'^^led under a specio.is
name He for one. was not remlv to ac-
cept die policy of the Bill as a true'nation-
al policy. Jiiasmi'ch as it might be in-
tended to operate ag,inst the American.
It Louid more properly bo collorl a retalia
tury policy, and as such it was ridiculous.

In t}iat point of view, if, was really worse
than no policy at all. If the Government
had brought down a measure adequately
protecting our coal and agricultural pro-
ducts, then it might with some propriety
be called a retaliatory, if not a national
policy ; but he was prepared to show that
the present scheme was entirely useless as
a means of protection, and could only bu
serviceable as a means of taxatiun. It
v;as proposed, in the first place, to levy 50
cents a ton upon coal coming into the Do-
minion. Every gentleman who laiow any-
thing of the trade of Canada was well
aware that above Montreal the 50 cents
would not be suilicient protection to the
coal of Nova Scotia ; and therel'ore Ameri-
can coal would continue to be brought into
the country, and the consumers would be
obliged to pay the tax themselves without
any benefit to our coal interests. If the
people of Ontario were desirous of paying
that tax, of course they were at perfect
liberty to do so ; but he thoujjht from the
expressions of public opinion in that Pro-
vince, the majority of the gentlemen re-
presenting it in the >Senate would not be
disponed to favour the imposition of that
duty. It had been said by
the hon. Postmaster-General that coal did
not go into actual consumption among the
poor; and although that might be, to a
large extent, true, yet it was well known
that when coal rose in price, wood also in-
creased in cost, correspondingly (hear,
hear).

Hon. Mr. CAMPBELL— To some ext?nt,
perhaps.

Hon. Mr. MILLER— Its cost would in-
crease _ considerably in the large cities.
Therefore, the price of wood was to be
raised during the long winter months,
when it was an article of prime necessity
alike among the rich and poor, and without
any benefit to the coal interests of Nova
Scotia. He would then ask if the House
was prepared to sanction a policj , which
was to raise revenue ui a way that woulcl
bear most unfairly on the poor peoi)lo of
this country. He did not tliink such a
course was worthy of being called a nation-
al policy. If it went into oi)eration, before
a year passed by, it would be condemned
from one end of tiie Dominion to the other.
Now how was this policy to benefit Nova
tJyotia ; whei'o was the Nova Scotia coal to
find a market ? Fifty cents a ton v.-ill not
send their coal above Montreal. Coukl
they even compete in Quebec for the supply
of thit locality ? He thouglit not. In Que-
bec, the average price of English coal was
20 shillings a chaldron, or 13 shillings and
4 pence a ton, and the market was now al

would be 15 shilling and 10 pence, or .say
16 shillings; but Nova Scotia coal could
not be put into the market at less than 20
shillings, and, therefore, it could not enter
into competition with the English article.
It was true that some enterprismg
gentlemen in Montreal had in-
vested considerable cajijital in the Nova
Scotia coal mines and might succeed by
their influence, and business con-
nections in introducing a small quantity
I into Montreal, but it could not be much.
I It would, therefore, be seen that this great
j concession to the coal interest of Nova
I Scotia amounted to nothing, but on the
j contrary, it was calculated to excite odium
I against that Province hi the other sections
j of the Dominion. He also objected to the
; duty on rice, whicli is an article of luxury
I among the poor fisiiermen and labouring
j classes, and ought not to be taxed. It was
i an article that the Legislature of Nova
Scotia had always hesitated to touch for
the reason he had just given, and the duty
would certainly be considered of a most
objectionable character in the Maritime
Provinces. As respects the duty on Hour,
it was understood tc be a sort of compen-
sation to Ontario for the duty on coal.
Why was there no compensation to Quebec
and New Brunswick ? Last year the peo-
ple of Nova Scotia imported something
like 160,000 barrels of American flour and
60,000 barrels of corn meal, the duty on
which would amount to $50,000 a year.
These were articles that entered into the
consumption of the people generally, and
yet they were to be taxed under the great
" national policy." Even supposing 20,-
000 tons of coal could be sent this year
into Ontario and Quebec in consequence
of the protection of this tarifi"— and he
doubted whether such would be the case —
it would be only a few capitalists and
monopolists that would receive tlio benefit,
whereas the Hour duty would fall on all
classes ; and for that trilling advantage to
the coal owners the people of Nova Scotia
would have to pay §50,000 in duties on
breadbtuffs alone.

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL— A large portion
of that Hour was Canadian sent through in
bond.

Hon. Mr.,MILLEIl undertook to say tliat
he knew something about the trade of
Nova Scotia, and tliat he was quite correct
in his statement. Some Canadian flour
might have come from Boston, but the
larger proportion certainly was American.

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL sai I that his hoti.
friend was misinformed.

Hon. Mr. MILLER— If the hon. gentlo-
man would look at tlie trade returns of

togoLiier supplied from England. At 2shil- i Nova Seotia. whena duty wis iniposetl on
lings and 6 pence a ton, the whole cost American Hour, ho would liu I that he (Mr.

Miller) was borne out by the facts. Pre-
vious to the Reciprocity Treaty, there was
a duty on Hour, and after the repeal of the
treaty it was re-imposed- His conclusions
were cb-awn from the returns of these
periods.

Hon. Mr. LETELLIER DE ,ST. JUST—
The duty was imposed for tne purposes of
revenue.

Hon. Mr. MILLER— The argument w<is
then used that by imposing a duty on
American Hour, we might facilitate nego-
tiations with the United States for a renew-
al of the Reciprocity Treaty.

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL— That will be
one of the effects of the present duty.

Hon. Mr. MELLER— The argument has
been totally dispelled by the facts of the
case for the past five or six years. He
also had strong objections to the duty on
agricultural products. It was likely, if the
Bill became law, that a proclamation, in
accordance with the original resolutions —
which might be fairly presumed to fore-
shadow the intentions of the Government — i
would be soon issued to put certain agri-
cultural products under the ten per cents.
Although the duty on flour and corn meal
would be a very serious tax on the i^eople
of Nova Scotia, it would not in a liu-ge sec-
tion of the Province produce so much
discontent as this provision of the Bill,
should it go into operation. A large portion
of the people of that Province were en-
gaged in mining, fishing, and maritime
pursuits. The people of a lirga section of
the Gulf and Atlantic sea-board depended
to a considerable extent upon Princ?
Edward Island for certain necessaries. In
the fall of the year, vessels leave many of
the numerous ports of Xova Scotia, antl
proceed to P. E. Islanil, where they get
cargoes of oats, potatoes, itc. These ves-
sels bring back their cargoes, and the
entries show — and they are not always
made— a very large import of agricultural
prodacts. If the people along a large sec-
tion of the sea coast were to find that
this agricultural produce was to be
taxed, as one of the results of Union,
they would naturally feel deeply irritated;
and the consequence would be t'uit the
harmoni.jus working of the Confederation
must be delayed. Such a tax was unjust
inpruiciple, and vexatious in its operation,
and calculated to do more to produce dis-
sension than any other system of taxation
that could be devised — more irritating
even than the iiostngo on newspapers or
the stamp duty. I'nder these circuni
stances he had a right to assert that the
measure wa,'- not a national policy. It was
a policy that would liear most unjustly on
the li'iiouring classes. It was not such a
policy as would draw forth the sentiment

Hon. Mr. Bliller.

that was expressed by a British statesman
when he hoped his name would go down to
the future as having given bread to the
poor, "unleavened by unjust taxation."
This Bill would not only leaven the bread of
rich and poor with the bitter leaven of un-
just taxation, but it would impose taxes on
nearly all the prime necessaries of life.
I Did such a result deserve io be dignified
;with the name of a "National Policy?"
; lie might be told tliat taking it in connec-
i tion with other matters of legislation, it
might be considered a national policy ; but
1 he was not able to appreciate such ari argu-
ment. The protection of the fisheries had
\ nothing whatever to do with the question.
I '.)ur fisheries were as much our pro-
, perty as our soil, and should bo
' equally protected from the encroach-
; ments of foreigners. It might with
i the same reason be argued that the expen-
I diture of $200,0U0 to meet the anticipated
Fenian raids, was a part of the grand na-
tional policy of which gentlemen opposite
were so fond of declaiming. The one was
as much a portion of the fiscal policy of
the country as the other. If the measure
went the length which it should, if it met
American products bj tlie same duties im-
posed on our commodities in American
markets, then there might be some rea-
son for supporting it, but to say that such
a tariff as the one i)roposed would ever
lead to reciprocity was nothing else than
an absurdity.

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL— Then the lion,
gentleman s objection is that we do not go
far enough. Is it so ?

Hon. Mr. MILLER— If they had imposed
a duty on co.d sufiScient to protect the
Nova Scotia product in Hamilton or Lon-
don, he would feel proud to support it.

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL— Would it not do
to send it to Toronto ?

Hon. Mr. MILLER— He did not believe
that any duty could be put on American coal
sufficient to be of service to Nova Scotia,
with justice to Ontario. It should be re-
collected that our m mufacturing interests
in this Dominion had claims on this Legis-
lature. If we could not protect them, we
should not crush them out of existence.
This assumed protection to Nova Scotia coal
would bear heavily on these enterprises.
The prosperity of this Dominion must to a
large extent depend on the growth and
success of its minufactories, but j'ou are
striking a heavy blow at them by this Bill,
lie supposed, however, it was all right, be-
cause it was a "National Policy." Ho
would not detain the House any longer on
the merits of the Bill as he rose chiefly to
speak to the Constitutional aspect of the
question. In couciusion, lie would say
that the country was looking anxiously to

the action of this Senate on the question
before it. Should the House be met by
the argument — that it should not bring
itself into collision with the other branch Y
Could they be influenced by any intimation
of that kind ? Should they hesitate a
moment as to their proper course when
public opinion pointed so unmistakably
to it ? He believed if hon. gentlemen
^ere true to the interests they represented
— if they rose above party considerations,
and those other influences susceptible of
being exercised in this House, and rejected
this Bill, they would win for themselves
the gratitude of the people from one end
of the Dominion to the other. The Senate
lia<l a duty to perform to the country and
to themselves, and that was to protect the
interests of the people, and, at the same
time, to assert and vindicate their own
rights and privileges.

Hon. Mr. McPHEItS(3N said that he was
impelled by a strong sense of public duty
to assume a position of hostility to the
Government on the important question
under consideration. At the outset, he
must say that he hid been as much
taken by surprise as any other member of
the House by the motion of the hon. mem-
ber for Grandville ; for he had expected
that the amendment would have been
moved when- the Bill came up for its se-
cond reading tomorrow. Such p. course
would be more in accordance with the
usage of the House ; but now that the
subject was fairly brought up, he was
obliged to deal with it. It was his inten-
tion to move an amendment to the amend-
ment, to the following effect : —

That all the words after "That " be left
out and the following inserted :

Resolved, — " That in the opinion of this
House, by subjectmg to duty of Customs
as proposed in the said Bill — breadstuff's of
any kind, or rice, coal and coke, salt, or
any of the " natural products " enumer-
ated in schedule C of the present tariff (31
Vic. chs. 7 and 44), and which at present
are admitted into Canada, free of duty — a
principle would be introduced, that Would
be partial in its operation botweeu the
Provinces constituting the Dominion, that
woukl distribute the burden of taxation
unequally and vexatiously amongst the
people, tliat would injuriously disturl)
trade, and tend to engender sentiments of
.sectionalism and disunion in the minds of
the people of Canada."

He regretteil exceedingly that it w.as his
duty to oppose the second reading of a
Bill of such importance as that under con-
sideration. He was fully conscious of the
rosponsiiiility of rijootinff n. measure com-
ing from the other branch and intended to
meet the public expen-i tares ; but he

did so under the conviction that any
other course would be antagonistic
to the best interests of the country. It
was not sutticient for members to
give a simple negative to the Bill — he
thought all sliould put their views on re-
cord. The gentlemen who opposed the
measure were not actuated by factious
motives, but by a high sense of public
duty. All the propositions in the amend-
ment he had just read could be easily sus-
tained. Ho believed it to be exceedingly
unsound to impose a duty on coal and
breadstuff's, or any natural products that
were now free. He acknowledged that
there was difficulty in framing a tariff^ that
would be acceptable to all the people of the
Dominion ; but certainly it would have been
an easy task to mature one that would be
more just to all sections than the measure
before the House. If it had been the ob-
ject to devise a tariff' that would set one
Province against another — that would cre-
ate and perpetuate sectional jealousies and
antipathies, the Government had certainly
succeeded. Breadstuff's were to be taxed
to please the people of Ontario ; but he
believed it was a great injustice to the
agriculturalists of Ontario to suppose that
they were prepared to accept such a tariff",
or that it would be a protection to them.
The market where their surplus produce
Wiis disposed of fixed the price of the
wholf>, and the duty could not be of any
positive advantage so far as the price of
their breadstuff's was concerned. Then,
the duty would be a great obstruction to
trade all throughout the country, which
should, in accordance with the true prin-
ciples of commerce, be left as unrestricted
as possible. Not only would the tariff" be
worthless to the people of Ontario, but it
would be most burthensome to the other
sections — to the fishermen and the great
masses of the people of Nova Scotia and
New Brunswick as well as of Quebec ; for
it was a well known fact that a large
quantity of breadstuff's were yearly taken
into the latter Province from the United
States. Then, as a part of this great "na-
tional policy" a duty was imposed on
foreign coal, as a means of propitiating the
people of Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia, New
Brunswick and Quebec werfe taxed to sa-
tisfy Ontario — Quebec, Ontario, and New
Brunswick were to be burthened to please
a minority in Nova Scotia ! Nothing could
be more calculated to create dissension
and disturb the harmonious working of
Confederation than such legislation. The
lion. Postmaster General had said that he
(Mr. McPherson) was connected with an
establishment which consumed large quan-
tities of foreinn coali and therofore it was
natural that he should not favour that part
of the tariff'. Now he would say in reply

that that estabUshmont VTould not be af-
fected by the policy to the extent of a
single dollar.

lion. Mr. CAMPBELL— Hear, hear.

Hon Mr. McPHERSON— The proprietors
would collect the duty for the Govern-
niont, but their customers wouUl pay it.
It was (juite true that the tax Avould be
bnrthensome to all inanufactuicrs in the
country, and make it more difficult lor
them to comi)ete with the foreign pro-
ducer. As respects the establishment
referred to, it only turned out railway iron,
and he must take that opportunity of say-
ing that when it was proposed there should
be no duty on that iron, he did not
oppose the proposition, for he had never
allowed himself to be influenced by his
private business in legislating for the
whole country. lie believed that a pro
tective duty was unjust, and could not
be supported on true principles. He was
also convinced that there was nothing
more illogical than that incidental protec-
tion which some said was one of the objects
of the measure. The object of a tariff was re-
venue, and in order to protect manufac-
tures sufKciently it was necessary to inter-
fere with the revenue. The duty on coal,
notwithstanding what the Postmaster Gen-
eral said, would be a very serious tax upon
the poor, in the cities. The inci < ase in
the price of that article would be really $1
a ton, and it must re-act upon the cost of
wood. He considered it a most unsound
principle to diminish the number of
articles on the free-hst, as it was done in
the present case. The policy of this coun-
try liitherto had been to follow the exam-
ple of England, and to raise the revenue
from leading articles and increase
the free list as much as possible. The
Finance Minister had acknowledged that
he did not expect t- ,ive much revenue
from the duty on eoul, breadstuffs, &c.,
and probably he was right. That hon.
gentleman seemed to have reserved him-
self tor the duty on salt, as he made special
reference to it. That was a most oV)joction-
able tax, for salt was an article that was
consume! by every man, woman, and child:
but because, forsooth, some deposits had
been found in Ontario, the Dominion was
to be taxed. The Finance Minister had
said that '■ there was a gigantic monoply
on the other si>.l<} of the line, and it was
simply a question whether the infant man-
ufacture of salt in this country was to be
put down by persons who, without any re-
gard whatever to what the cost of it might
be, would crush in some way or other tliat
manufacture. " That monopoly hid existed
for a great many years in the state of ^'ew
York. Now, he had taken si.me trouble
to ascertain the price of salt for a number

Hon. Mr. McPherson.

of years; and he found that it was $1.50
per barrel in 18C3 ; $1.G0 in 1865 ; $1.75 in
1866-7, when the taxes were so high in the
United States ; $1.65 in 1868; $1.50 in
186y — the prices in the month of May of
each of those years. 8o last year the price
of the article had fallen to what was actu-
ally its normal cost. He was not able to
iind any evidence that the Canadian enter-
prise was being crushed out; but even
were it so, would the House sanction an in-
crease in the cost of the article, amounting
to 25 cents a barrel, which would have to
be paid by the consumers. Was the Iluuse
ready to subsidize every little enterprise
that might be estaldished in tliis country,
without reference to the masses of the
people ? The whole amount of capital in-
vested in the salt interest at Goderich
could not exceed $100,000; and if it was
the wish of the Government to encourage
that interest artificially, it was
bettei to give it a direct
subsidy than to increase the cost of the
article by a tax on the consumers. The
same argument would apply to the coal of
Nova Scotia. 'If it was the intention to
encourage monopolists at the expense of
the people, then let it be done directly
out of the consolidated fund, and we would
soon know what it would cost. Referring
to the tariff in other respects, he was ex-
ceedingly surprised to see how many
things were taken out of the free list be-
sides those to which he had been referring :

" Animals of all kinds, except such as
shall be imported for the improvement of
Stock, which sh dl be admitted free of
duty, under regulations to be made by the
Treasury Board, and approved by the Gov-
ernor in Council. Green Fruits of all kinds,
Hay, Straw, Bran. Seeds not classed as
cereals. Vegetables including potatoes
anrl other roots, Plants, Trees, and
Shrubs."

It was most objectionable to tax any of
such things, and he was suri)rised how the
Government could attempt to defend the
imjiost. Fruit trees and vegetables — of a
better description than we can grow —
ought not to be taxed, more than animals
imported for the improvement of
slock. The more the tariff was considered,
the more clearly would its injurious effects
be sen. The clause in reference to pack-
ages was most cumbrous, and had been
copied almost verbatim from the United
States tariff. The effect upon the cheaper
goods was to increase their cost
beyond the higher priced goods which
are less bulky and come in packages
which are not dear in proportion
to the contents. That provision would
mike a dilleronce of riiore than 5 percent,
in tbe price of the cho ip and more bulky
articles which are used in nine houses

out of ten ; and Buoh goods as
were used by the wealthy
classes would be comparatively little af-
fected. The duty on coarse, bulky cheap
goods might range from 20 to 25 per cent.
This must be considered a discrimination
against the poor that was most objection-
able and ought not to be Banctioned by
the House. All the duty that the merchant
paid, whether on goods or packages, or back
charges must be put on the goods and
collected from the customer. He did not
object to the duty on tobacco, for he
tliuught stimulants of all kinds like luxu-
ries were fair subjects of taxation. The
Finance Minister need not have had any
difficulty in raising all the money that he
required, in a much less obnoxious manner
than was proposed in the Bill. He pro-
posed to increase all duties three quarters
of one per cent, and from this source he
estimated he will receive $425,000. There
would have been little objection to his
making the increase of duties one and one
half per cent, which would have yielded
according to his own estimate $850,000.
Tliis with the estimated increase of rev-
enue from tobacco of $300,000, would give
a total additional amount of $1,150,000,
being $50,000 more than ho estimated
would be received from all the addi-
tional duties imposed by this Bill
— $50,000 more than he asked —
He suggested that as the easiest plan of
raising all the revenue that might be re-
quired. If the public interests were to be
jeopardised by accepting the amendment
he proposed, he might hesitate to jjress it ;
but he knew that if the Taritt were
rejected no inconvenience need
arise. He had no doubt that the
Banks would purchase a large amount
of Dominion Notes in the course
of the year. He did not imagine that the
Government cared as to the source from
which they would receive the requisite re-
venue. The money received for Dominion
Notes would be used like any other re-
venue to pay debts.

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL did not deny that
Kioney so received would be exj^ended,
but what would be the effect upon capita-
lists ? Would they not hesitate to advance
money to a country whose debts were paid
in that way ?

Hon. Mr. McrHERSON— The hon. gen-
tleman could not deny thr t the proceeds
of Dominion Notes would b-j expended as
revenue. Pursuing the si/',, c under con-
sideration a little further, iio ..mst say tliat
the action of the Government in another
place had been such as to fetter that
House. The Budget should not be
a strictly party question, but in
consequence of the course taken by the

Government, in changing their policy and
subsequently going back to the original
propositions, they made the question one
of confidence or non-contidence, and pre-
vented the House of Commons freely ex-
ercising their judgment on the subject. In
this connection, Mr. McPherson referred
to the opinions of eminent British states-
men, to show that a Budget should not be
considered in a purely party aspect, and
went on to say that if the Tarift under con-
sideration had been discussed with perfect
freedom in the House of Commons, it
would not now be so unpalatable. The
Senate, however, was not fettered by such
considerations as prevailed in the popular
branch, and could deal with it, free from
party bias, and with a strict regard to the
great interests involved. Two years ago,
when the Criminal laws came up from the
Commons at a veiy advanced stage of the
session, the Senate refused to consider
them ; but there was not a word said about
such a proceeding affecting the stability of
the Government. The Senate, in the case
of the Tariff, was called upon to exorcise
its impartial judgment, especially as it was
a body representing particular sections or
Provinces which were unfairly dealt with in
the Bill.

It being six o'clock the Speaker left the
Chair.

AFTER RECESS.

The Senate resumed at eight o'clock,
and the debate on the tariff' was continued.

Hon. Mr. McPHERSON— Before the
House adjourned he had argued that, in-
stead of uxing the people, for the sake of
benefiting a few monopolists, it would have
been a wiser policy to have subsidized the
latter directly out of the public revenues.
It was well known that the majority of
the owners of the mines of Nova Scotia
were not residents of the country, and
therefore any benefit shown to them
would not be a benefit to the great mass
of the people of Nova Scotia. Therefore,
it would be seen that the tariff, so far as
it touched salt and coal, was only intend-
ed to benefit monopolists to the injury of
the great mass of the people. Many indi-
rect evils would be found to proceed from
the operation of the tariff". " A large num-
ber of the vessels that come every year
from the United Kingdom for timber were
freighted with coal instead of ballast.
Whatever they got for it went in reduc-
tion of the freight charges of the
Canadian product ; and it necessarily follow-
ed that any tax that increased the freight
must diminish the profit of the Canadian
dealers. The inland shipping of Ontario

as a large number of vessels were now en-

gaged in carrying American coal. He did
not think the tax would be operative, but
if the expectations of the Government
were reaUzed, then the result would be
aa he had stated most injurious to our
marine. Another interest in Ontario would
also be affected by the salt duty, and that
was the Lake Fisheiy. The ocean iisheries
would not be touched inasmuch as the
salt used in curing the fi,sh was allowed to
come ill i'ree from Oreiit Britain and her
Possessions ; but there wom lo such pro-
tection afforded to the inland Iisheries.
Yet this was called a great 'national policy'
which was to protect all interests nnd please
all sections, and lead to the renewal of
Reciprocity with the United States. If ;
the last argument was correct, then the I
tariffwould destroy itself; but what ^vas i
more absurd than to suppose that an |
additional taxation of ourselves to the
amount of two hundred thousand dollars
was going to have the effect of forcing the
Americans to renew free trade with Can-
ada? If it was true that a mutual inter-
change of our products would be the best for
both countries, we should receive all that we
required from them untaxed, in other words
at the lowest possible rates for ourselves
(hear, hear). What could l^e more illogi-
cal than to say to the Americans— "If you
will not untax what is consumed by your
people, we shall impose a t;ix on what is
consumed by our own." If we could make
the Americans pay the taxes, then there
would be some reason in the arguments of
gentlemen opposite ; but so long as we
pay them ourselves, there could l)e_ noth-
ing advanced in favour of the tariff". Be-
fore recess he had stated that the course
he was pursuing was influenced by a high
sense of public duty ; and he had no hesi-
tation in urging the Senate to adopt the
amendment vvhieh he had laid before it.
If money was wanted, he imagined
that the Government would have
no difficulty in devising such a
tariff" as would be more acceptable to the
House and country thiui that now under
consideration. He believed that if the
Government had adhered to the changes
they had made on a memorable afternoon,
a few days ago, in the House of Commons,
they would liave acted more wisely ; for
the tariff, so amended, would have be(>n
lessoljeetio ible than the prestut mea-
sure, which was unpopular from one end
of the Dominion to the other.

Bon. Mr. MITCHELL— No, no.

Hon, Mr. McPHERSON The lion, gen-
tleman would soon see how manymemliers
from his own Province would support him
on the rjxiostinn. (Hear, hear). Pul>Uc
opinion was unmistakably opposed to tin-
measure ; he hud not seen a newspaper of

Hon. Mr. McPherson.

any mark or influence that was fully in
favor of it. The Local Legislature of
Nova Scotia had unanimously expressed
tl. sir dissent from the policy. In the
election shortly to come off in that Pro-

vince, no omdidftte he was assured was
likely to present himself, and pronounce in
favour of the new tarifi". In New
; Brunswick and Quebec, the press was as a
, unit agiinst the measure. Under these
' circumstfnces, a great responsibility de-
volved upon the Senate in dealing with a
Bill of so important a character. No doubt
! could exist as to the perfect right of the
House to dispose of the question in the
way proposed ; and in this connection,
: Mr. Mcpherson (juoted from Todd, and
I other authorities on British Parliamentary
1 pi'iictice, in support of his argument. Not
I only were British precedents in favour of
the right of the Senate to deal with such a
subject, Canada could aflord examples in
the same direction. In 1859, the Legis-
. lature was sitting at Toronto, and the
I question of the removal of the seat of Gov-
ernment to Quebec arose. The Govern-
ment pledged itself to the Legislative As-
sembly to remove the Government to Que-
bec, but tlie Council was opposed to such
a removal. No item on the subject was
placed in the estimates— the Government
simply pledged itself on the question.
Hon. Mr. De Blaquiere moved, seconded
by Hon. Mr. Allan, that the Coun-
cil " feel itself called upon to de-
clare and resolve in defence of
its undoubted and unquestioned
rights, as a co-ordinate and co-equal branch
of the Legislature, and as the only iiieans
of preserving its independence, that it will
not take the question of Supply into con-
sideration, &c." The motion was carried,
and among the names constituting the
majority on that occasion, there was one
which would be considered as of great
authority — and deservedly so — the Hon.
Mr. C;ampbell, the present Postmaster Gen-
eral (laughter).

Hon. Mr. LETELLIEK DE ST. JUST—
That was "revolutionary!"

Hon. Mr. McPHERSON— At that time
Chancellor Vankoughnet took the ground
that the Postmaster General assumed now.
lilr. Campbell then said that the responsi-
bility rested on the Government and not
on the House. It was right to assume that
the hon. gentleman took the correct
view in 1859 rather than hi 1870. The Bill
was postponed, and the extreme step of
stopping the Supplies was taken, but a few
days afterwards the Government had an
addition of strength by the arrival of mom-
bers. (langbter) and the measure passed
by a majority of two. The only debateable
ground now, in fact, was whether the Sup-

as fully in
islaturo of

expressed
'. In tho
1 that Pro-
vssurod was
renounce in
In New
538 was as a
Fnder these
isibility de-
iiling with a
. No doubt
right of tho
stion in the
connection,

Todd, and
irliamentary
iment. Not
in favour of
with such a
examples in

the Legis-
ito, and tho
scat of Gov-
riie Govorn-
■gislative As-
ncntto Que-
osed to such

suhject was
Government
he question,
ed, seconded
; the Coun-
pon to de-
defence of
unquestioned
-equal branch

only means
!e, that it will
iply intocon-
. was carried,
stituting the
lere was one

as of great
?o — the Hon.
stmaster Gen-

3 ST. JUST—

At that time
k the ground
assumed now.
the responsi-
nent and not
o assume that
; the correct
?70. Tho Bill
treme step of
ken, but a few
mient had .".n
rrival of mom-
sasure .oassed
[dydebateable
5ther the Sup-

ply Bill could be amended in the Senate.
So iar OS he was individually concerned, he
had no other desire except to enhance the
usefulness of the House, and enable it to
win the respect and gratitude of the people
throughout the Dominion.

Hon. Mr. SANBORN said that no doubt
the Government felt thamselves so strong-
ly entrenched that they did not consider
it necessary to use any arguments in reply
to those which had been advanced in be-
half of the amendment. The constitu-
tional right ot the House to deal with the
question had been so fully maintained by
reference to the practice of the House of
Lords and the old Legislative Council of
Canada, that he neeJ not dwell on it at
that time ; but there was another argu-
ment on which less had been said, though
it appeared to him as forcible as any that
had been adducod. The Confederation
was formed upon certain principles which
were fully enunciated and discussed. Some
persons advocated the continuance of the
elective principle with respect to the for-
mation of the upper branch of the Legis-
lature ; others contended for the nomina-
tive principle. Those who sustained the
latter view took the ground that the repre-
sentative character of the House was not
unlike that which existed formerly— that
its members were nominated by a responsi-
ble Government, by those who represent-
ed the people. It was contended that the
members of the House would possess a
representative character, although they
would be necessarily more conservative
than the more popular branch. Tliese
views we:o sustained in the discussions on 1
the subject by those who held a high posi-
tion in the country. He found in the de-
bates on the Confederation scheme a re-
port of a , speech delivered by Hon. Mr.
Campbell, in which that hon. gentleman
said : "In Upper Canada, as had been
stated lately by an hon. member, the
population has increased very rapidly, and
would probably go on increasing in a much
larger ratio than that of Lower Canada, or
the other Provinces, and if the Legislative
Council were elective, the time might
come, when the people of that section
would fancy themselves entitled to an
increaseil representation in the Council,
and commence to agitate for it. They
might object to the fishing bounties paid to
the Lower Province, to the money expen-
ded there in fortifications, or to something
else, and claim a representation in the
Council, more in accordance with their
population, to enforce their

views and in view of such contingen-
cies tho delegates from those Provmces
conceived it would not be safe to trust
tlieir rigiits to an elective House." In those
remarks, the Hon, Postmaster General re-

cognized the principle of Provincial repre-
sentation. The Senate was bound not to
take into considenition any measure,
which would atfect injuriously tho interests
of any particular section. Further on, the •
same hon. gentleman said ; " And if that
was considered necessary in a country so
compact together as the United States,
how much more would it bo proper in a
Confederation, some of the sections of
which were separated from each other
by long narrow strips of land, or wido
estuaries, with small representation
in the popular branch, and looking chietly
to their equality in the Upper Chamber
for security for local rights and interests,
and institutions." Notliing, then, could
be plainer than the principle laid down by
the Postmaster General, that the repre-
sentative principle was applied to the Sen
ate. If he waa correct at that time, it
necessarily followed that he was now in
correct in saying that the House had no
right to reject that which might be injuri-
ous to the several Provinces. When the
constitution was formed, the prepon-
derance of representatives eryoyed by
Ontario and Quebec over Nova Scotia
and New Brunswick was very great, but
it was wisely provided that the three
sections of the Dominion — the Maritime
Provinces, and the two Canadas —
should be equally represented m the
Senate. In this way, the Lower Provinces
received a countervailing influence in the
upper branch, in order that their interests
might be protected. The Minister of Jus-
tice, speaking on the same subject in the
House of Commons, laid down the doc-
trine that " the man put into the Upper
1 House is as much a man of the people
the day after, as the day before his eleva-
tion." According to the British constitu-
tion the King, Lords and Commons, form-
ed the tliree branches of Parliament. The
Lords represented themselves, the Com-
mons represented the people, or in theory
the people themselves aosembledto delib-
erate on what was necessary for their in
terests. Now the Senate was in an entirely
different position from the Lords. The
members of the Senate had no separate
estate to maintain— they represented, in a
secondary degree, the people, for thoy were
appointed by those who were responsible
to the people. That position was support-
ed by the highest constitutional authority
in Parliament— by one whose opinions on
such subjects were entitled to the highest
respect, even by those who might
differ from him politically,— at
a time when the Legislature
was dibcnssing tho details of the Constitu-
tion for the Confederation. In the same
debate the Hon. George Brown said :—
" The desire was to render the Upper

House a thoroughly independent body-
one that would he in the best position to
canvass dispassionately the measures of
this House, and stand up for the public in-
terests in opposition to hasty or partisan
legislation." Then in the British North
America Act itself, the 18th clause read :
" The Privileges, Immunities and Powers
to be held, enjoyed and exercised by the
Senate and by the House of Commons and
by the members thereof respectively,
shall be such as are from time to
time defined l;y Act of Parliament of
Canada, but so that the same shall never
exceed those, at the passing of this Act,
held, enjoyed, and exercised by the C0..1-
mons House of Parliament of the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and
by the members thereof." That clause
did not make the distinction that the pri-
vileges and immunities of the Senate should
never exceed those of the House of Com-
mons, but placed that body on an equal
footing with the other branch, and provided
that its powers might be extended by
an Act of our own Parliament. That
fact showed clearly that it was contem-
plated to constitute a Senate which
would be of equal power to the
Commons, though its powers would be
perhaps exercised with more moderation
and discretion. The fact that the name
of the Upper branch had been changed to
that of the Senate was very significant.
The history of the world showed that the
idea which the term conveyed was that the
Seniue had highei duties and responsibili-
ties than even the Legislative Council. In
the course of the present debate it had
been clearly demonstrated by honour-
able gentlemen opposite that he House
of Lords had undoubtedly tlie power
of rejecting even a Supply Bill.
It had also been clearly demonstrated,
that not merely a tax which came within
the Supply, and which was minor in its
character, but the Supply Bill itself had
been directly rejected by the late Legisla-
tive Council. The present Postmaster
General had himself "recognized the con-
stitutional right of the House to deal with
the question by his own recorded vote in
the old Council. It was certainly proper
that a measure imposing taxes on the
people, should emanate immediately from
a body, directly representing and under-
standing the wants of the people ; but in
the present case, the Senate was called
upon to express an opinion as to the pro-
priety of the burthens to be imposed on
the country. Such a right should, of
course, be exercised with great care ; and
the question now arose, whether the Se-
nate would be justified in exercising that

House of Commons. If the question had
not been made one of party, the tariff
would never have come up in its present
obnoxious shape tt) the Senate. When
the Supply Bill came up in the British Par-
liament, it was never the practice to treat
it as a strictly party question, involvmg
the fate of the Ministry. Two or three
adverse votes might be given against the
Government, but the House would not ne-
cessarily consider them as votes of want of
confidence. The Government, however,
had said, to their supporters, that unless
they assisted them in passing the measure,
obnoxious though it wasj another set of
men would probably come mto power. So
unpopular and unjust was the measure
considered, that the Government
were only sustained by a bare
majority on the motion against
the duty on breadstuffs. The Postmaster-
General had positively declared that the
Government was a unit on the question,
but no one could surely believe — especial-
ly after certain occurrences in the Com-
mons—that the Cabinet was by any means
satisfied with a measure which was raising
such a cry of dissatisfaction from one end
of the Dominion to the other. Now it was
often said that when an individual was as-
sailed on a particular point on which he
knew himself to be vulnerable, he invari-
ably insisted upon being relieved from even
the shadow of a suspicion. It was imposs-
ible to ascertair- how the Government
could be a unit on the question, when they
liad one policy before, and another after,
dinner. If they could be considered a unit
under such circumstances, it must be by a
species of legerdemain, which could not be
understood with reference to other associa-
tions of individuals. As respects the me-
rits of the measure itself, he must confess it
was most burthensome to the people. Luxu-
ries, used by the well-to-do classes, were fair
objects of taxation ; but the policy— the
great "national policy" — imposed duties
on the poor and labouring classes of the
people. It was urged that the coal duty
was a matter of little importance, except
to those who lived in cities ; but it had
been urged, with truth, that when you
raised the price of one description of fuel,
you necessarily enhanced the value of all
others. In many localities ot Quebec,
there was a very great scarcity of fuel-
that indeed was one of the causes of emi-
gration from certain districts of that Pro-
vince. Those who travelled over the coun-
try to St. Hyacinthe would see that the
country was as bare of fuel as were the
prairies of the North West. When the Post-
master General said that the duty on bread-
stuff's would not alter the price of a loaf of
bread, it was obvious that he had not

right. In answer to that question, he 1 —^ , — -— , . ,, , ,. ,

would refer to the scate of things in the studied the science to which bakers applied

Hon. Mr. Sanborn.

[uestion had
Y, the tariff
I its present
late. When
I British Par-
tice to treat
in, involving
'wo or three
L against the
ould not ne-
?s of want of
it, however,
, that unlesj
the measure,
lother set of
> power. So
he measure
Government
f a bare
n against
Postmaster-
red that the
le question,
ire — especial-
n the Com-
y any means
was raising
)m one end

Now it was
dual was as-
an which he
3, he invari-
Bd from even
was imposs-
Government
n, when they
lother after,
iidoredaunit
aust be by a
could not be
Jther associa-
)ect8 the me-
lUst confess it
eople. Luxu-
ses, were fair

policy — the
posed duties
classes of the
le coal duty
mce, except

but it had
it when you
)tion of fuel,

value of all

ot Quebec,
ity of fuel-
uses of emi-
of that Pro-
iver the coun-
3oe that the
as were the
hen the Post-
luty on bread-
is of a loaf of
he had not
akerscpplied

the
it
in-
of
sec-
Bill

IhemsolvGs. Ho (Mr. S.) had found that
when there was the slightest rijo in flour,
the bakers were painfully alivo to the fact;
and he hud no doubt that the ullect of the
iluty would bo to put iv cent on a loaf,
without any reference to the actual tax on
the whole barrel. The rostniastor General
did not appear inclined to bo iiiHuenced by
the opinion of the cities; but in that
respect lio certainly dii'-^rod from his col-
league, the Finance Minister ; for if
H inking Bill showed anything,
was thit tlio groat B:»nking
torests of the largo cfntres
population were consulted. (Jtrtain
tlons were afl'ected injuriou.sly by the
— especially the Province from which ho
ramo. The tax on coal would notoriously
weigh heavily upon the population of
Queijec. The same people would also suf-
fer in the article of brea<lstufts, for they
were obliged to import Indian com and
flour from the TTnited States. No doubt,
the Minister of Marine felt that tho Pro-
vince of New Brunswick would suffbr by
the Bill. Tliat hon. gentleman gloried in
being a Liberal, but if that term' was to
mean anything, it should be applied to one
who espoused tho rights of tho people,and
under such circumstances, he would surely
rise above all party considerations and as-
sume that attitude which he must feel in
his heart was due to him as a
friend of tho jieoplo, and a repre-
sentative of New Brunswick (hear, hear).
It was only necessary to read the organs of
public opinion in that Province, and to see
the position of the majority of its repre-
sentatives in either branch, to conclutle
that the Tariff must be most odious to the
masses in that section. It was customary
with certain gentlemen to call the measure
a " National policy," and to defend it on
the ground that it would bring tho Ameri-
cans to their senses and restore Reciprocity
to us. Such an argument was so jiurely
absurd, that ho would not waste any time
in discussing it at length. The policy of
imposing taxes on fuel and foorl, which
were necessaries of life, could not be for
a moment defended on any substantial
ground ; it was a policy neither in the
direction of free trade nor of protection.
lie had great faith in fostering a mamifac-
turing industry, because ho believed that
farmers in the vicinity of manufactories,
were directly benefited ; but tho elToct of
the present measure was to burthen all
classes and confer beneiit on none. In
conclusion, he would merelysiiy that ptrty
considerations should not prevail in the
Senate — whatever position hon. gentlemen
might take could not afl'ect the stability
of thft Government. The diitv of the
Senate, under the circumstances, was
clearly defined, and that was to g' '

against any unnecessary burthen being
inii)osed upon the people of the diflVrent
sections of tho Dominion ; and if hon.
geiitluiuoii fulled to re.spund to the public
opinion of tho country, they would be
recreant to the high trust reposed in
them. (Hear, hear.)

Hon. Mr. KEESOR said that he did not
wish to detain tho House for any time, but
ho was unwilling to allow the vote to be
taken without having given expression to
tho reasons which influenced him in the
course he was about to pursue. At the
outset he must express hia regret that the
<tovernnient hatl not given more reasons
why the House should support the Bill
under consideration. No doubt could
exist in the minds of any one that the Bill
was unpopular from one end of the Domin-
ion to the other ; and certainly a measure
which gave so much dissatisfaction ought
to be sustained by sound argument before
the Senate was asked to pass it. It was
not a national policy in any sense of the
term, for if it were such, such formidable
opposition to its passage would not have
arisen in every section of the Dominion.
It was urged that the duty on wheat was
an act of justice to the farmers of Ontario ;
but there was a very large quantity of sur-
plus produce raised in that Province, and
its value was regulated by the price in the
foreign market—whether that market was
in Montreal or [South America, and could
not be affected by the tariff. If we im-

Sosed a duty on American wheat and
our, the consumers would have to bear
the burthen. But there were other con-
siderations that should not be forgotten.
If we allowed the produce of the far West
to come through Ontario, as it had been
doing for a number of years, then we were
fostering a most lucrative commerce. Fif-
teen millions of bushels of American wheat
passed through the hands of Canadian
merchivnts last year. It might be said that
there was a drawback on that merchandize,
if it was intended for export ; but it was
well known that the very fact of the exist-
ence of such a duty must create annoy-
ance, and cramp that trwle, now so profit-
able to Cana<:la. He could not understand
how the Government could sanction
a policy which did not benefit
any great interest in the country,
but on the contrary must re-act injurious-
ly upon the farming community which was
deeply interested in the development of
all our commercial and, manufacturing
interests. In nine cases out of ten,
American coal was used in manufacturing
establishments throughout Ontario, and
the tax upon them would be very consider-
ji^ijlfi \\\ the course of a vear. It liad been
said by the Hon. Postmaster General that
tho duty on coal was only borne by tho

manufacturing ostablislimonts ; but it was
well known that whatever inoreaseil the
duty that tho manufacturer puid nocos-
Barily enhanced tho price of the article
which he had for sale. ' Take, for example,
railway iron. The duty would necessarily in-
terfere with any contracts that firms might
have made of lite. Parties engaged in
constructing certain railways in the West
applied to a certain firm to supply them
with the iron. Tho price was named, but
it was too high. The s.ime parties had
now agents in England to see it' thoy could
there get their iron cheaper. Was it fair
to throw difficulties in the way of such en-
terprizes ? A manufacturing interest should
be encouraged, inasmuch as it brought
additional consumers into tho country, and
stimulated the agriculture of tho Domi-
nion. He did not object to a littlo inci-
dental protection to manufactures, but
that protection was in no way aftbrdcd by
the measure before the House. The duty
on the coarse grains was particularly ob-
jectionable. It was well known that corn
was the only coarso grain brought in from
the United States, and inasmuch as it did
not enter into competition with our own

E reduce, the farmers of the West were not
eneHted by tlit; duty. He was aware
himself that within the past year
thousands upon thousands of bushels
of corn had been l)rought from
the United States. Not only would
the distilling and manufacturing interests
be effected by the tariff— the shipping in-
terest would also feel it. A drawback
might be allowed on corn exported, but
why throw difficulties in tho way of our
merchants and manufacturers? Under
these circumstances, he was convinced
that if the Senate had ever been called
upon to intorfero with tho legislation of
the country, it was in ti.o case of a mea-
sure which boro tmfairly on particular sec-
tions, and could not be justified even by
those who wore endeavouring to fasten it
upon the people.

Hon. Mr. IIOBERSTON said that he was
unwilling to give a silent vote on the mea-
sure which had already been so fully and
ably discussed. It was certainly one of
the most important questions that had
come up for consideration since the
commencement of the Union, and he re-
gretted that he was obliged to give a vote
on it adverse to the Government. He felt
it was the duty of the Senate to rise above
party feeling and deal with the question
in accordance with the true interests of
the country. The constitutionality of the
course proposed to bo taken by the oppo-
sition to the measure had been thorough-
ly stated, and it was not necessary that he
should go over that ground on the present
occasion. Looking at the general features

Hon. Mr. Reesor.

of the measure he must iay that iti effects
upon the interests of the dift'erent Pro-
vmces. and ultimately upon the Confeder-
ation itself, would be of a most serious
character. The Bill gave very general dis-
satisfaction, and would continue to create
an irritation that it would be Terf diffi-
cult to allay. Instead of endeavouring to
stimulate the manufactures of the coun-
tryj the Government had adopted a policy
which hampered them. An indirect tax
was put on manufactures, not only by tho
duty on coal, but by the duty on bread-
stuffs which enter into the consumption of
the labouring classes. If that shuuid be
the cfise, — and no one could doubt it —
then there should be no hesitation what-
ever on the part of tho Senate, as %o tho
propriety of rejecting tho measure. So
far as public opinion had expressed itself
it was most unequivocally against tho
adoption of so injurious and unjust a
policy. He saw no force in
tho argument that the duties
would have the effect of renewing more
liberal trade relations with the United
States. If ho remembered aright it was un-
derstood that the negotiations on the sub-
ject of Reciprocity terminated some time
ago, but since tho tariff had come up it
was said there was a greater chance
than ever of obtaining Reciprocity. Th«
whole amount of duties on American pro-
ducts was estimated at $200,000; and
would any one assart that the Americans
were going to give as a renewal of recipro-
city on that account. They would only
enter into reciprocity when they consider-
ed it was for their interests to do so 5 and
it was absurd to talk of coercing them. If
we chose to put a duty on goods necessary
for our own consumption wo would
also have the privilege of paying it. Look-
ing into the question of the coal duty, the
House would see how unfairly it would
operate. If you would take the article of
gas coal, it would cost, from 35s. to 408. a
ton in Glasgow, and the duty upon that
would bo about 6 per cent, ad valorem.
Steam coal, at the shipping ports, was Gs.
or 6s. 3d. a ton, and the duty on it would
be 33^ per cent. Common house coal was
93. a ton, and the duty upon that was 24
per cent. American house coal cost, on
the average, f 3.75 of our present money,
and the duty on it would be 13^ per cent.
Anthracite coal last year was $7.50
at the lowest price at the nearest
shipping port to Canada, and the duty
on it was CJ per cent. Now it would
be seen that whilst we would pay 33 i per
cent ad valorem on the coal imported
from (rreat Britain, we would only pay GJ

United States. Therefore a diiierential
duty, to all intents and purposesj was im-

iti efTecU
jront Pro-
Confflcl«r-
3Bt ■erioui
;eneral (iia-
) to oreato
Terf diffi-
vouring to
the coun-
)d a policy
Klirect tax
»nly by the
on breiui-
umption of
HliuiUd be
loubt it—
tion wbat-
aa k) the
asure. So
ssed itself
;ainat the
unjust a
force in
e duties
ving more
le United
) itwaa un-
>n the sub-
some time
ome up it
er chance
city. The
rican pro-
,000; and
Americans
of recipro-
?ou).d only

Y consider-

so ; and

1 them. If
) necessary
we would
; it. Look-

l duty, the

Y it would
article of
. to 40s. a
upon (hat
id valorem,
rts, was 6s.
n it would
e coul was
at was 24
%l cost, on
mt money,
I per cent,
vas $7.50
e nearest
. the duty

it would
ay 33 i per
i imported
ily pay GJ

diiierential
3, was im-

posed against the English coal t>) the ox-
tent of 26 or 27 per cont. ; and yet, that
was called a great national policy. It was
certrinly very extraordinary to hear the
Postmastor (Joneral say that the duty
on cod would not bo felt outside the cities,
and there only by the wealthy people.

Hon. Mr. MrrCIIKLL wished to ask the
hon. member if ho was not aware thivt the
largest importation of coal was usoil m the
cities, and that the rural distric'.d hud no
interest in the matter.

Hon. Mr. ROBEUTSON— Would tlio
hon. gentleman say thit if the importa-
tion of coals was stopped, it woukl not
generally attect tho price of fuel?

Hon. Mr. MlTCIlELI^If tho entire im-
portation were stopped, it would "*li'<-t,
hut not seriously, the price of wood. Iho
rural districts, howover, would not leel it :
but, under any circumstances, the tan I
did not preclude the importation of coal.
Hon. Mr. IIOBEUTSON-It wns quite
certain that tho Nova Scotians could not
supply the people of the West with coal.
Hon. Mr. MITCIIELL-Tlio argumont
urged by the steamboat proi)rietor9 lor
taking oil" the canal tolls was— If you take
them off, we will obtiiin all the protection
we require, and with the rotiiin frnghts,
we can make our business pay. Ihero
was every re\son to believe that there
would bo an additional consumption ol
Nova Scotia coal by moans of the duty.

Hon. Mr. IIOBERTSON — That lact
showed clearly that the Dominion was pay-
ing a, subsidy to the Nova Scotia coal own-
ers at that time. Ho was not un-
willing to give a little incidental pro
lection to manufacturers, although lu^
was a fr»se trader in i)rinciple. The pre-
sent measure, however, would only tcivl
to increase the expenses of the labouring
olassrs engaged in ship-buildui'r, or other
manufactures. Ho knew that it afldecl to
the expense of ships to have a quarter ot a
dollar imposed on Hour. He could not
understand on what grounds that tax
could be supported ; for it burthened tho
poor, and was declared by the Ontario mil-
lers to be no protection to them. The ob-
ject was to tax one Province for the beiio-
Kt of the other. New Brunswick had to
pay duties on breadstuffs and on co.il, im-
'er the delusion that it would benefit tho
millers of Ontario and the coal owners ot
Nova Scotiii, and she had to bear this bur-
then as one of the advantages of being a
section of the Dominion of Canada, ilio
people of that Province were promised
equal justice when they entered tho Con-
federation, but certahily there was no just-
ice in the Bill before the I!-'V>='" ; svr,:. .le
was positive it would lay the toundationn
of discord. He asserted .without fear of

oontnidiction that the men who were most
anxious to iiccomplish the union were now
the most bitterly oi)po»e 1 to it, on account
of tho legislation of the Canadian Parlia-
ment, and the manner in which the Con-
federation was being worked out. The
Hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries
might Will move uneasily in his seat,
for ho knew that the assertion res-
pecting the state of things in his Pro-
vince was perfectly correct, and that
there wns no doubt tho I'eeling would in-
crease in intensity unless there was a
change for tho bettor in Dominion legisla-
tion. I'mler siuh circumstances it seemed
to him tiiat the Senato ha<l ample reasons
for adopting tho ameiulinent l.oforo the
House. Tho oU'ect of tho Bill might be
simply stated as setting one soclion against
another, and exciting jealousy luul preju-
dico from one end of tlio Dominion to tho
other. Itw.is impossible to look into the
details of tho Bill without scoing that must
disastrous results would follow fom its
operations. The mode of assessing tho duties
was certainly of a most extraordinary
character. Tlireequarters per cent, adtli^-
tional was put on all articles that pay 15
per cent, ad vatonin on which, according
to tho Finance Minister, $42"),(KX) was ex-
l)octed to be raised. Ever so many entries
would have to bo made at every Custom

House, ami tho stall' of odicors would have
to bo inn eased ; for it would bo impossible
for the ortlinary clerks to spare the time
reciuisito to make tho calculations that
would be demniided by the Bill. The same
stiteiiiciit was niiplicablo to merchants
<>n":i"cd in large buHiness, and having fro-
queiiUy to make entries. It was impossi-
ble to predict accurately tho amount of
roiil'usion and trouble that must arise
under tho Bill. The stipulate ns with
respect to packages wns most annoying.
There was not a man in the Domhiion,
who had anything to do with the importiv-
tions of wines, and was obliged to pay
for the c isks. The e^isk was included m
the price of the wine or brandy. Section
Eight of the former law was now repealed,
ami a most extr -.ordinary section substitu-
ted in its place, which ho must confess, ho
could not thoroughly comprehend. •

"8. The value for duty, of goods on which
an ad valorem Duty of Customs is imposed,
imported into Canada by sea, shall be the
actual value of such goods at tho last place
at which they are purchased j and the
value of such goods lor duty it • "tt 1
irom tho United States by Ian. " l

navigation, shall bo the act' ' Ji

sueh goods at the last place at v _ -ney
are purchased for importation into Canada,
o.„i «-li»nno. tbev are directly convejod,
wit'iout change "of package, to Canada j
and whatever be the countiy from which

tlio goodi nro imported, or in wliich tiny
aro |)urchaito(l, Buch wlim Mhall bo OHPcr-
tninnd by adding to thct viiluo of hiuIi
goods at the plnoo of growth, pnxluction,
or manufrtcture, thocost of tninsportutioii,
whether by land or watii, and of niilpiiu'tit
and tranHhipment, with all tho oxpeiiMOM
included, from the jiliuc of fjrowth, pro-
<Uiction, or mnnufacturc, to tho plmo
whoi-e the goods nro i>urclmHp(l, and if tlioy
are purchaHod in the I'nitod States, lln-ii
to the place whcnro thoy aro directly con-
veyed to Cnniidii n.«i nforosaid,— nnd such
value Khali include also tho value of any
box, ciiHO, 8 ick, j)acka;»o, or cov.-ring of
any kind in which «uch );oods aro
contained, and all export duties on such
goods, and all costs and charges incurred
prior to their purchase."

No one could comprehend tho actual
meaninj; of such n clause. How was ouo
to got the value of goods at New Yoik?
Such a clause might well pu/./lo any mor-
cliant. lie was sorry to sco that the
(Jovemmont h id been under the necessity
of adopting tho most obnoxious part of
tho Tar.if in the ucighhouring States. It
was almo.st un))racticable to ;,'et the infor-
mation asked for in tint vcxatioin ('lan-e.
J)id it mean that a m ui buyiug a ca.so of
nilks in New York would InVo to go and
find its cost in China, or whorev>r it was
manufactured, and trace every step ili.it
added to its price before it )eacho<l hiiuV
Take ag.iin the case of a bale of (Jciiuui
cloths. One man might gc) to lierliu and
purchase his cloth, andbesidcs th^vilne of
the invoice he would hivo to state every
shilling he might have In i)ay until ho got
it to its destination. Now su|)[ioso auotlier
person should purchase precisely tho same
class of goods in Liverpool ; when lie woul I
present himself at the Customs ho would
be met by the ot!i«pr with tho loniuk,
"What is tho cost at the jdace of
production?" fie might reply, '• I cannot
say, for I bought the case in Liverpool ; "
but the otiicer would tell him. "You
must furnish me with all the charges uiitil
the case got to Liverpool.'" Tho actual
result would be that ho w.aild pay tlio
charges on that cloth as far as Livt'-rpool
twice over. lie must confess he could not
see how such intricate, if not impossible,
entries were ever to be made; and yet tho
measure was called a "national policy."
It was certainly the most iucon.^'iuous
productioi. tr 'i ho had ever met with in
the courec of ..is, iusin^S:. expoi'ience. As
respects ti.^ i ,. of tb^^ packages, it must be
admitted .-r: a i • auua that it would fall on
the cousnuicrs. If a duty had to be im-
pose!, why not put it immedi itely on the
gor-.ds thcm-.elve-, rather th;m on the
packages. It was simply because the Gov-
ernment did not wish to acknowledge they

Hon. Mr. Robertson.

were increasing the duties to IS or 'M nor
cent., that they brought forward iiuch o
policy. It would have been far preferable
lo iiave imposed additional duties directly
than to have dcviced such nn annoying
and cumbrous mode of raising money. No
one (i.rtaiidy was prepared to refu.xo the
(iovernmont permission to raise all the
money they reipiired in u legitimate way,
but what ho and others objei^te(l to, waw
tho system ailoptid. If two and a lialf
j)er cent, additional hul been |»ut on all
tho (((/ vitlorcm gooils, they woidd have ac
tually raised more money than they nHke<l
for, and savi'd trouble and annoyance. 'J'he
value of the jiu'lcagcs, commercial men
said, could not be estimated with refer-
once to the value of tho contents. Tho
n\ore bulky and cdu' ijier goods came in
heavy p.ackages. As respects to-
biceo, it nuist be remembered
that it wa.s the luxury of tho poor man,
just as tho rich man's luxury was a cigar
or maiUura. Coming to another branch
of the subject, ho wouUl mention that ho
saw it stated that Nova .Scotia paper would
bi.' rece.ved at tho Customs and Inland
Kovenuo departments in. New Brunswick
at two and two tiiinls per cent discount in
[layment 'or duties. He presumed that
this was to I oa concession to New Bruns-
wick to make uj) for the abandonment of
tln^ r.solutious liy the (ioveinment for tho
assimilation of tho (Jurroncy.

lion. Mr. MlfCllELIr-TheCovernmint
were tlio tervants of rarliament, and Par-
1 ament had allowed tho (piestion to re-
in lin over lor the present.

Hon. Jlr. l[i )ni':UTS< )N— The C.overn-
mi.'nt promised to deal with the question,
and then ignominiously backed down at
the <lictation of the members from Nova
.Scolii. Now iJ.i per cent upon §.5 was 13^
rents; the discount on Nova Scotia money
was K("^iotimo3 as low as ?>\, but that de-
pended on tho rate of oxclrmgo, and tho
average was ."> por cent or 1;') cents — so tho
couiicssi. n was no SU'M .n\it'b'.on after
all to New Brunswick mer, 'rt.'.nts. It must
bo consideie I, to,), that In *)."cli :ging the
money so collected t.oubidorabio expense
would be incuried. In i'act, it was impos-
sible to consider the preseut fiscal legisla-
tion of tho Dominion in any point of view
without .seeing how cumbrous, expensive
and unl't'.ir it was to the mercmtile in-
terests of the country. For such reasons,
ho believed the Senate was bound, by a
deep s'jnse of obligation, to the peoi^le of
the Dominion over whoso interests it was
bound to witch, to express its emphatic
protest against tho measure under con-
sideration, and relieve the eountr}'
from the burthens which, if it was allowed
to i)as8, it would impose upon all class©*..

or 'M i)or
(l such a
[)roforable
!» (iiiectly
nnuoyiiig
sney. No
■I'I'UfO tho

10 all tlio
niito wny,
'A to, \va»t
11(1 a lialt'
)ut on all
I liiivo nc
luy nHkoil
lino*. 'J'lii'
Mcinl men
fitli lel'or-
>ntH. Tho
a oimo in

lOCtH to-

nenil)erp(l
loor ni:in,
iH n cigar
>r hi'iincli

11 that liu
per would
1(1 Inl'ind
Biunswkk
liscoiuit hi
med tlmt
■w Bruns
inuiont of
put for tho

ovcrnmint

and Par

ion to re-

e (loveni-

quostion,

fl down at

from Nova

s.'iwja 13i

otia money

it that do-

;o, and tlid

its — so tho

Iv on after

It mu3t

'ging the

o expense

vas impos-

ical legisla-

int of view

oxponsivo

I'cintile in

;h reasons,

)und, by a

! peoijlo of

rests it was

emphatic

jnder con-

5 country

vas allowed

all claBse».

Uo hail no hesitation whatoror in giving
Ilia vote aRiiinst the meaMuro, inai^inuch as
it could not atloct tho poHition of the Go-
yerninent, niid no groat inconvenience
need arine from the i)aKMago of tho amend-
ment. Ho wim aHsurnd that tho people,
from one end of the Donnnioii to the
other, would lie ("xceeding; gratified if
hon. gentlemen would consent to postpone
the Bill. The resolution clearly expronxed
the wish why the Soiiite should take tho
course they Wore asked to purmie, and he
was convinced that none other waH open
to those who were iiillucnced by a (lesire
t promote the true interests of tho
people. [Hcflf, he;ir.l

Hon. Mr. Abl-AN said tint ho knew the
House was becoming imp:iticnt, and he
had no desire to prolong the discussion
tint night furthor than was necessiry to
](l«('e his vicw.s on record. Ho must say,
at tlie commencement, that there had been
no agreement b<Hw<^en the hon. member for
(»randvillo and otlur gentlemen on the
same side of tho Ibaisc, to take tho <iov-
ernment by surprise. Ho did not .suppose
that it W(iuld bo unfair to that hon. gen
tleraan if ho were to say that if the
nm(Midmont were to have tho cllect ot
bringing about a ch mgo of administration,
it would not bo a caii.so of dissatisfaction
to that hon. member ; but ho (Mr. Allan)
must say that ho was convinced that hon.
g(?ntlomau had ii it brought forward his
motion in a purely party .si>ii it. So far as
he was individu.illy concerned, ho could
assure the House tliiit ho hid no other ob-
ject in view except tho deferring cf a
mevsuro which h^' bolioved to be most un-
desirable. It had alw.iys been his pleasure
to support tlui C-overnmont on all mca-
8nre3 on which ho could {^onsciont'ously do
80 ; and, as regards the gentleman who
led the administration in tho House, he
(Mr. A) had groat reluctanci.! in assuming an
attitude of hostility to him above all others.
The present, however, was ono of those
cases when he ought not to bo influenced
V)y purely personal or party considerations.
It was not necessary for him to .say nmch
about tho constitutionality of tho proceed-
ings, after the remarks of tho hon. gentle-
men who preceded biin: but there was ono
passage in Todd's " Parliamentary Uovern-
ment," to which he would call particular
attention. Mr. Allan lead a quotation from
the authority in question, in elucidation of
his arguniiuit, and tlv^n went on to say that
tluTO was no doubt that tho Senate was
justilied in expressing an independent
opinion on a (juestiou of such a character
as that under consideration. Indeed, a
case in point had aheatly been mentioned
jj,- Yote t"kcn in 1S.;}9. in the old Legis-
lative Council, on the motion moved by
the Hon. Mr. DcBlacquiero, and which he

had the honour of leconding and lupporting
in compnny with tho present I'oHtmanter
(Jeneral. (Hear.) Without dwelling further
on a jioint on whii'li he wan convin(%tl
there ought not to be a doubt in the
minds of any one, namely, tho con»titu-
tional right of the House to tike the
cour«e the resolution asked it to pui-H'e- he
must briefly refer to the meritu of the
measure itself- of that " National Policy,''
(if which they lately heard so much. An a
British Canulian. ho was very dosirouB of

building ujia sti-ong nationality in this part
of tho c(jntinont, but he must fnuikly ad-
mit that ho could not seo how the Confo
deration w.is to bo strengthened by
such a policy as that before the Hou«o.
What he understood by ft national policy
was ono which was essentially for tho goo I
of the country. Such a measure should be
considered cirefully aii'l conscientiously
in accordance with wh it wore bolioved to
bo the true interests of all sections of tin-
Dominion. With respect to the protection
of tho fisheries, he was prepared to
support the (iovornment in guard
ing tho rights and interests of
our follow subjects in any part of tho
Dominion ; but that (|U«stion was very
different from one which could only perpe-
tuate jealousies between tho didorent sec-
tions," instead of eroding harmony nu'l
cementing tho I'liion. The argument that
such legislati(Jn could ever tend to recipro-
city was too absurd. Was it po.ssiblo that
four millions of pe(H)lo could cooroo thirty-
eight millions into tho adoption of a parti-
cular commercial policy V Ho was strongly
oppo.sod to the moasui'e, beciuso ho be-
lieved, in the first place, it was
i obnoxious in i)riiiciple. Hi< hul_
i no desire to i-ee the doctrine of
' protection revived in T'anad i, and more
duties imposed than were ab-(olutely ne-
cessary for the purpo.-<es of revenue. For
that reason ho objected to ilio nioasure,
especidly as tho principle hiving been
once allowed, it was not o isy to recede.
Then he objected to the pol.cy, because it
would not "answer the purpose which its
promoters cl limed for it. A»y incidental
protection it might atlonl to any particular
interests— and it was doubted if any would
I really be given — would not compensate for
tho groat injury that would l;e done to the
shipping and commoiciid interests of the
country by driving into American chinnels
a large trade tint had hitherto passed
through Canada. In speaking on tlio
question, tho Postmaster-(ieneral ai>peared
to consider it a matter of inditlen nee what
the opinions of the cities might be; but
the House was Inrdly likely to agree [with
him that it should n(')t listen with rc.spect
to the wishes an.l soiitiments of tho
largo centres of intelligence, whence

information radiated to all partg
of the countiy districts. When,
therefore, it vim seen that in the
^iient centres of industry the measure was
most eniplmtically condemned, the House
h;ul most powerful reason for rejecting it
without the least hesitation. (Hear,
iiear). lie acknowledged that if, by the
imijosition of the duty, it was possible to
I oinpel the manufacturers of Western Ca-
nnda to use Nova Scotia coal, it would be
satisfactory ; but no one who wis conver-
sant with iho subject but acknowledged
that they could not be supplied from that
Province. Nova Scotia coal, ho was as-
sured, had been tried over and over in
tiie fu.rnacis of the large manufacturing
establishments, but not with satisfactory
results. No matter what the duty might
be, the proprietors would be ol'liged to
use the American anthracite conl. Then,
again, consider the ettbcts upon the poor-
er cl isses of thu population. It had lieen
asserted that so far as the great body of
our people were concerned, the taxes
would not ail'oct them in any way what-
ever, but lie could not agree with that
opinion. In the iirst place, he must state
it as a fict tlititc lal was being extensively
u.-ed among all olasscSj owing to the in-
crease in tlio price of wood — oven in the
l.u'ge henevoleut institutions they were
obliged to use it altogether. Eveiy one
was aware that the destruction of tlie ibr-
ests was g ing on most rapidly in every
l)art of the jjominion, and the jirice of
wood was annually hccoming higher ; and
theie was no doubt whatever that the
moment tlie additional taxation came into
operation the result would be to add to
the price of fiul. If the ettect of the
me;tsiiio. would 1 e to encourage intercolo-
nid tr.ade, it would be an argument in its
fivour, Init his idea of the best
means of cflecting so desirable an
object w IS to mcrease the facilities
f)f intercoiu^e between the didcrent.
members of the Union — to improve our
canals and extend the railways throughout
the Donunioii. During the i)ast seison,
the steauK-r JLt Majnsty, had made regular
trips between llalifa.\ and the upper ports,
but she could only go down to Montreal
half 1 ideii, iu eonsetiuence of the limited
capacity of the canals.

Hon. .^[r. .MITCMELI.— She always got
her full o ug,) at Montreal.

Ib)n. Mr. ALLAN — The results, how-
ever, w r.i far I'lom profitable to the
own IS.

Ilon.Mr. MITCHELL— Had been told
by th ■ owner of the Ijnat, Mr. Chisholm,
that the ro:;ult of taking off the canal
tolls, wouUl be to give a inargin for ijront,
and that if the propeller had not been

Hon. Mr. Allan,

wrecked, he would have made a good
season.

Hon. Mr. ALLAN went on to say that
although he felt it lo be a grave responsi-
bility to vote for the amendment, yet he
was compelled, for the reasons he had
given, to support it. He believed that
the measure was in itself inaugurating n
mischievious system of legislation — that
it would not encourage Intercolonial
trade — that, on the contrary, it would in-
terfere most seriously with many valuable
branches of industry throughout the Do-
minion to which coal was indispensable —
that it would press most heavily on a
large class who were obliged to use it on
account of the scarcity anc expense of
wood. Under such circumstances, there
was no other alternative open to him as a
member of the Senate, entrusted with the
responsible duty of guarding the interests
of all sections, than to vote against the
passage of a measure which waa likely to
operate so injuriously upon all classes in
the Dominion.

Hon. Mr. LOCKE said that the ques-
tion had been so ably argued by his hon.
friend and coUengue from Nova Scotia (Mr.
Miller,) who had clearly proved the consti-
tutional right of the Senate to deal with
the question, that it was not necessary ho
should delay the House with any prolong-
ed observations on that part of the sub-
ject. It hid been urged with force that
they were now entering upon a new era
in the history of this country, and that
the example the Senate might set would
bo considered a precedent for the future.
Ho thought the House had a perfect right
to estalilish such a jjrecedent as would
clearly define its authority as a body per-
ibrming responsible functions under the
constitution of a Dominion, which was to
become a great nat.onahty according to
the promoters of Confederation. As res-
pects the tariff itself, he must say at the
outset that the duty on coal would not be
considered a concession to the majority
of the people of Nova Scotia. The coal
interest was confined^to Pictou and Cape
Breton, and the tax,ifa benefit at all, could
' only protect a minority of the population.
Whilst making a concession to the coal
counties of Eastern Nova Scotia, the bread
of the people in the West, was to be t;ixed.
The Western Counties traded cheaply with
the United States. At the end of the fish-
ing season, vessels left the western ports
for the United States, wliere they disposed
of their cargoes of fish and returned with
flour, rye and cornmeal. Only once in the
liistory of Nova Scotia had the coarse articles
of rye and meal been taxed. Rye could
not be procured in Canad.i on the same
terms as in the United Stiites, and the

same remark applied to coni meal to a
large extent. Kice was also a commodity
essential to a large class of the population —
it was the luxui-y of the fishermoa and
poorer people. The man who was
not able to buy any other article of luxury
used rice — even the schooners when they
went to the fisheries took large quantities
with them. The Minister of Marine and
Fisheries was perfectly well awaie that
meal was an article of prime necessity, not
merely among fishermen, but especially
among lumbermen. lie would next refer
to the article of tobacco, which was already
taxed largely, it was the poor man's
Holace — absolutely necessary for liis com-
fort when he returned home after a hard
day's toil ; but now he had to pay upwarils
of 100 per cent, more for the luxury of
smoking his pipe. The duty on packages
was very troublesome and unfair. The
cask, for instance, in which molasses came
might be worth $5 in Cuba ; but when it
reached Nova Scotia its value was not more
than 75 or 80 cents. In the fisheries, sucli
casks were used to some extent for butts,
but otherwise they were useless, and would
have to be broken up for fuel. No where,
except perhaps in the United States, was
it usual to resort to the absurd expedient
of chargin g a duty on packages. It had
been well pointed out by the hon. gentle-
man from St. John (Mr. Eobertson; tliat
the Eighth Section would lead to great
trouble and inconvenience, inasmuch as it
was almost impossible to comply with its
provisions, and under any circumstances it
would require additional clerks in every
large mercantile establishment, and in Cus-
tom Houses as well. Yet this measure, so
perplexing and burthensome in its details,
was called a great national policy. Some
called it a "retaliatoiy policy," but before
it could be entitled to thut name, we
would have to impose duties on American
products equal to those they imposed on
our own. The measure afforded no con-
cessions to Nova Scotia — unless it was a
concession to tax seven-eighths of the peo-
ple for tho benefit of one-eighth. In-
deed, it was most questionable — in
fact, it was positively denied — if
the duty would operate beneficially for
the coal producers themselv es ; but even
under any circumstances it was a wrong po-
licy to tax the many for the advantage of
the few, (hear, hear ) The true principb,
which should be at the bottom of all legisla-
tion, was to leave tho people at liberty to
buy where they can purchase the cheapest
and sell in the dearest market. He had
no doubt whatever that i. was practico,ble
to raise any money that might be required
for the public expenditures by some
means which would not operate unfairly
on classes or sections of tiie people, ior

instance, additional revenue could more
satisfactorily be raised by making a slight
increase on the ad valorem duties from 5
to 1 5 per cent. He thought, after having
given full consideration to the subject,
that it was the wisest course for the House
to reject a measure which was creating
such wide-spread dissatisfaction, and re-
lieve the country from the irritation and
annoyance which would certainly arise
from its passage.

Hon. Mr. SKEAD said that he felt some-
what diffident in rising to speak on tho
question before the House at that late
hour of the night, but he could not give
a silent vote. The tariff ha<l b;en before
Parliament for a month — it h:ul been
thoroughly discussed in the House of
Commons and in the public press ; but
nevertheless he had not seen a single pe-
tition from the fanners in (Jutario com-
plaining of its ]irobablo effects. It was
true the cities of Montreal and IJuebec
objected to tho measure.

Hon. Mr. ALLAN — Tho people have
with reason thought that the objection-
able features of the measure would be
struck out.

Hon. Mr. SKEAD was not denying that
Toronto, which tho hon. mctiber repre-
sented, was opposed to certain features of
the tariff. He was not himself altogether
satisfied with the measure, but neverthe-
less ho had (confidence in the Government,
and believed that they had devised the
best ueasure possible under all the circum-
stances. They were obliged to raise addi-
tional revenue, and the only way they
could do it was by imposing such duties as
would be distributed over all sections. He
iloiibteci very much whether it was advis-
able to add to the fifteen per cent duties
at the present time. As a representative
of a lumbering district ho was opposed to
a tax on timber, and it was probable that
the Governmcni; would be obliged to resort
to such a step, should they not be allowed
to pass the present measure. He had been,
he must confess, much surprised at the
statement of the hon. member from Hali-
fax (Mr. Miller) tlrit English coal could be
bought so much cheaper than the Noya
Scotia article in the Quebec market.

Hon. Mr. MITCHELL s 'd that it was a
mistake to say that any ship would bring
the coal simply as ballast.

Hon. Mr. MILLEll had made his state-
ment on the best authority.

Hon. Mr. SKE.\D was of opinion tha
unless the Nova Scotia dealers produced
Coal cheaper, they could not expect to get
the Canada trade.

Hon. Mr. MILLER r.marked that they
could not get it under existing circum-
stances.

Hon. Mr. SKEAD said that it was
obviou-s to him that the national j>olicy
would work to the advantage of the coun-
try if it w iH properly carried out, and he
iifl ovisd it to Ijo the duty of the represen-
tatives of all .sections to assint it ; and under
,itiy circumstances, if it did not operate
tjenelicially, it could Hoon lie repealed. It
wan a \;i.se policy, at the present time, to
ilirect all our legislation towards the
object of creating trade between
the Hfivoral I'rovincoH constituting
th- Dominion. The present measure was
K step in that direction, and was therefore
an <xperiinent worthy of trial. The Se-
nate slioiild also bear in mind the fact
that if it rejected the Bill before it, it
would subject th'j House of Commons to
much incf>nvf;nienoe, by delaying the pro-
gress of public business, and keeping
members for some time longer from their
homes and private affairs. He was not
prepared to assume the responsibility of
bringin/' the two Houses into collision
with eacn other, at a time when it was so
desirable to brmg the public business to a
close. In conclusion, he must observe
that he was desirous of seeing every
</'u8tom House on the frontier abolished,
and free trade established between Canada
and the world. Direct taxation was,
after all, the true principle of meeting
public expenditures; but whilst the
country was not i)repared to adopt such a
policy, he had to take things as he found
th. m, and ho would therefore vote for a
measure which had been matured })y the
(iovernment as a meins of raising the re-
venue to the amount required for the
public (;-\.igences.

Hon. Mr. BOUKINOT s.iid that before
the House divided, he felt it necessary to
make a few remarks on the very import-
ant question which had already occupied
so much time. He regretted that '.he
members of the (iovernment, and those
who were re idy to support them on the
(juestion, had not thought it advisable to
f.xpliiii more iully tlie reasons why the
House should give its assent to the
measure. He for one, would not apolo-
gi/x3 to the House for assuming a position
which he felt he was c.illed to assume by
.'I sense of the duty he owed to the
country. (Hear.) It was his undoubted
right, as a member of the Senate, to act
independently of Ministers, and he would
not hesitate to exen-ise it on the present
occasion. When the measure

w.is brought up in the House
of Commons, by the Government, ho
was in the city of Halifax, and in frequent
intercourse with the leading men engaged
in trade and interested in the coal mines
of the i'rovinoo : and not one of those'he
met expressed his satisfaction with the

Hon. Mr. Skead.

I tariff. The coal owners said they did not
! ^rant the duty of .W cents, inasmuch as it
I would not be protection to them in the
Canadian Market. They all thought that
! there was a dLsposition on the part of the
United .States to agree to amend their
< tariff so far as coal was concerned, and that
' there was every probability that the pro-
i hibitory duty would be al olished or so
j lowered ns to allow the coal dealers of
j Nova Scotia to send their product into the
American Market with profit. It was well
known that public opinion in the Uniteil
States was tending to the a^^loption of a
more liberal commercid policy towairls
iJanada ; and under the circumstances
it was believed in Halifax that the policy
pressed in the Canadian I'arliament by cer-
tain prominent gentlemen was unsound,
and not calculated to benefit Nova Scotia
in the end. It was clear that the natural
market for the coal of Nova Scotia was the
United States, and that it would go there
despite the duty imposed on it. Many of
the vessels now engaged in the trade
brought back flour and meal, instead of
b.allast, and now it was proposed to tax
those commodities which the people al-
ways considered they shotild receive free.
Such legislation was in itself calculated to
burthen the very class which it was intend-
ed to benefit, and showed a want of fore-
sight on the part of those who had ma-
tured iuid forced it on the country. He
was confident that the insignificant duty
in question would never create trade be-
tween Canada and Nova Scotia — if trade
should ever spring up between East and
West, it must arise from natural causes,
(hear, hear) — not from such artificial and
unnatural expedients as now proposed.
It was out of the question for Nova Scotia
coal to compete with the British coal,
which, as it had been before observed, was
brought in as ballast. The best house coal
sold at Sydney for about lOs. a chaldron,
and for $1.75 at the new mines, and the
freight to Quebec would cost nearly as
much. Then the various charges that had
to be incurred in going up to Montreal,
were bo large pt present, that the coal trade
could not be made profitable. The policy
WIS unsatisfactory in whatever jioint of
view it might be considered. It wiis in no
way calculated to build up a " new na-
tionality," but was certain to perpetuate a
spirit of rivalry and sectionalism that
might lead to most .serious consequences
in the future. He was not prepared to
admit that a great favour had been
conferred upon Nova Sc^otia by a conces-
sion which could not benefit even the in-
terest it was intended to assist ; but under
any circumstances, ho protested, as a re-
presentative of that Province, against the
adoption of any measure that would create

ill-feeling lietween ditTerent sections. As
respects the argument that wts used by
the opposite sMo — tint the eftect of re-
jecting the Bill would he to bring the Se-
nate into collision with the other branch
— he did not see much force in it. The
S.nate had a perfect right to pursue that
course which its members should dtem
most in accordance with the public inter-
ests, and even slioul I tliey differ from the
House of Commons he was convinced
there was enough liberalitj in that bcnly
to prevent any ditiiculty arising. He re-
gretted thitiiehad delayed the House,
ijut he could not refrain from e.\pres-ing
liis ojiinion on the ijuestion. thougli he
knew th it his lion, friends who hail pie-
c.d d him had exhausted tlie subjeet. He
had no h situion as t > the vote lie would
give that night, for it would be intiiienccd
i.y tlie desire to act for the interests of the
whole Dm niou ; ami those interests, he
w iS convinced, would be best subserved by
rejecting. I measure which would operate
most unsatisfactorily.

Hon. Mr. W.\RK' Mid that he had been
prepared to hear mmy diverse opinions
e.x'piessed on the .-ubjoot under considera-
tion, but certa.nly lie had never expected
to tind sucii unanimity. It was stati'dthit
it w.is the intention to I enelit Nova Scotia
and(»nt irio, and yet it was m st surpiising
to sie ni'Mubers from those sections
rising, one after the other, and express-
ing themselves oppose I to the me. sure.
I'he ertect upon New Uiiinswick was cleir-
ly to legislate her out of the Unimi. The
people of that Province hid to p ly taxes
on Hour and corn meal for the beiieiit of
Ontario, and on cod for the Ijenetit oi a
s.'ction of Nova S.-otia. He need liardly
till the House that it wis not possible to
force trade out of its natural channels, and
th:it the policy in (piestion would thei'efore
fail in that respect. He had tjeeii always
in favour of extending the canal sys-
tem of the Dominion, ami in tint w ly
f ellKating trade and ijitercourse between
("inada and the woriil. Every eliort should
lie made to remove every barrier that pie-
vntedthe .^t. Liwreiice being the great
highway between the West and Europe.
The Maritime Provinces would be the car-
riers of that trade, and therefore he wish-
ed to see every faeility atforded to its ex-
ti'Usion. Those Provinces had the means
of Ijuilding ships cheaply, luid manning

legisldionof the Dominion had sofarbe^n
d trimental to the interests of New Bruns-
wick; but the opp.sition that the present
m&vsure met with in that Provin-e W!U»
c .nclusive evidence of thit fact, and justi-
Hed the coui-se he was now taking.

Hon. Mr. LETELI.IER DE ^'^. ,Wi^
s.iid that the Postmister General, in tlm
remarks he had made at the commence-
ment of the debate, luul attempted to iu-
rtuence the House by a style of argument
that might be called in French, qutliiiif
chose (L' .tpirifujc. The House was toll that
the effect of throwing out the Bill
would be to create a collision be
tween the two Houses, and that
much delay and inconvenien, i- mu>t
arise from such a course. Now, referimg
to the proceedings of the I.egislati\tT
(."ouncil in 1S.">'.', he found the Postmaster
(ieneral agreing with the sentiments in
the resolution that was lulopted — senti
ments directly contrary to those which lie
had expressed tint afternoon. Now that
hon. gentleman was not prepared to assert
the rights and privileges of the Senate ;
but in LSj'J he assent<'il to the declaration,
" that the 1 egislative Council feels itself
bound, in deb nee of its unquestionable
rights as a co eijual branch of the Legi>la-
ture, and as the only means of presrrviiig
its independeiue not to take the (juestion
of supply into consideration."' Now ho
(M. de St. Just) argued that the motion
which he liad moved was precisely si-
milar in etfect to the one which he had
just read as having received the support
of the Postmister General. He did not
think the (Tovernment could fairly dedaie
they hid been taken by surprise — if the
Telegraph were to be brought up to give
evidence on the subject, (laughter,) he
thought the reverse would be shown ; and
h>'miist certainly tdce that opportunity of
congratulating the Government on the sii
tisfactnry results that had arisen from the
use they had been making of the useful
ageni'.y of circulating infurmation to their
friends.

The members were then called in unJ
tho House divided on Hon. Mr. Mcl'er
son's amendment, which was lost by tlie
following vote : —

CoNTKNTs: — Hon. Messr Allan, Blake,
Bourinot, Chart'ers, Christie, Cormier,
Dickson, Guevremont, Hamilton (Kings

which, according to the best authoiities,
was operating so injuriously to Am'^rican
commerce and enteri)rise. He regietted
llmt he w,is foieiid to ai'knowl»dge tint the

•3

Armand, Benson, Bill, Bureau, Burnham,
Cami)bell, Chapais, Crawford, Duchesnay,
E. U. J.; Dumouehol, Holmes, Kenny,
La:oste. McCrea, McDonald, ANh'Lelan.

McMnster, Matheson, Mills, Mitchell,
Renaud, Eoss, Ryan, Seymour, Shaw,
Skead, Wilson.— 28.

The question then being fmt on llonor-
ahle Mr. LETELLIER DE ST. JUST'a mo-
tion in amendment, the same was also re-
solved in the negative.

The question being put on the Honor-
able Mr. CAMPBELL'S motion, viz. :
" That the said Bill be read a second time
at the next sitting of the House," the
same was resolved in the affirm itive.

The House then adjourned at midnight.

lor-

iz. :
mo
the

'ht.