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Mr. Charies Fitzwilliam. Mr. Oladatone. Mr. Gordon. Mr. Grogao. Mr. Gumey. Mr. Percy Herbert. Mr. Kjniiaird. Mr. Labouchere. Mr. Lowe. Sir John Pakingtou. Mr. Roebuck. Loifd John Rnaaeli. Vitcount Sandon. Lord Stanley. .^:t^':/ Thb RiQBT Hon. HENRY LABOUOHERE, iv thb Chaib. JoIm Jtou, Esq., cnlled in ; anctKtmnined. , 1. ChairmtmJ] I bblibvb yon are a Member of the Canadian Pariiauent? —Yes. 2. How long have you belonged to tiiat body? — Since 1848. 3. You were also, I think, a member of the Canadian Government for several '. years ?-~From 1851 until 1866. , 4. What situations did you hold ?— I was first Solidtor-general, subsequently . Attorney-general, and afterwards Speaker of the Legislative Council. 5. You are aware of the objects for which this Committee has been ap- pQinted? — ^Yes. , 6. Has your attention ever been directed to the question of the affidrs of the Hudson's Bay Company, in so &r as thepr affect the interests of Canada r--Y^, ! I have thought very much upon the subject f
13. Do you think there would be any difficulty in establishing rc^ar Com- munications between the. Red River settlement and the present province of Canadio, if any such arraiigemeht as you have described could be emcted ? — U any project were mooted and #eie set afloat for carrying a railway across th» continent, I believe it is conceded that that portion of the continent pf Noirth^ Ame^ca over which the Queen's Government extends is the most ftesible route that cian be ad(^ted. I bdieve tlMt is conceded by all the American gehUe- "^ men who have faivestigated the subject, and I think it is so accepted now. 14. You have hrard that opinion generally expressed ? — I have heurd that: opinion expressed by leading and influential Americans who have investigated the subject; 1 believe it is Mr. Whitney's opinion; at least it is thai impression that that is his opinion. I j. What is about the distance from the Red River Settlement to the ex- treme , . , . . -. .,.■..'•■. •J^-'# •; ^^: .^'i' VPyr^. »^4,-v.'.;i:':'i^.. '■ ' *, ■:k,fj^:i:^:t. lUte *.»£«; j,'j ex« sme SELECT co«i«aRraio« IttM MDSON^^^I^^^ 3 ^ptttton of the wse^tfM ptai at CioiidGa at fhe pcariekit Mom^t i^;the >. Xm^'^ „. . -I should think about 1,800 mfles ; but I may be wrtng. ' . '.." — 16. Elave these questioos only recently occupied public attehtion in Canada, «« F«bni«jf 1857. or have they been disoUsacid fi>r some timife therdr— I thitk it was diiring the wiy last summer that tiie discusnon first commenced upon the subject. The 'question of the opening up of the territory has often for jrcart been inddent- ftUy mooted* but ^ a regiriar ' disonssion of the question has never arisen tintil the eouhie of thislaat summtf, that i'am atrate of. 17. Doyou tbjnk that if some amuig^laii«nt could bc^ made, such :ib that vlUdi you. have described, by which tire Red River Settlement, for instance, was: taken oid; of the control of the Hudson's Bay Comimny, it could be d»u- Veniently governed and administered frran Ganada, or that it woidd be nei^es- su'v to have some form of local government?—^! do not think that, 'at present, J$^ could be convenienthr governed of administered by the Canadian Govem- qient. There should dther be a railway constructed from the west end of Lake Superior to he Hed River Settlement, or a good broad onSen road cut «ttt and made i and land, such ae niight be fit for cultivation^ hda off on eteh side of it for settlers to occupy, and as the occi^)ation took place, and settlers matin, it could be exteaidoi; tod in that way the Red River Settlement cnHOld be coim«:ted with our present lines of commumcation. 18. With regard to the oountiy more to the north and north-east, do you Imagine thctt then is any «ctent of country now belonging to thti Hudson's Bay Company on the tirontier at Canada, which it is probable would be occu- piiBd for settlement within a few years ? — I think not ; I do not think that in that direction there is any territory which could be occupied, or that it is pro- bable wiJi be occupied. I know that the Hudson's Bay Company held within tibe Canadian boundary a section of country which was called the King's Posts. They lay up towards the Labrador border, along the gulf of the St. Lawrence, from bdow the Saguaney River. They surrendered those posts to the Cana- i: ^ian Government, and during the titaie that I was acting as Attorney-general . > 4: in Canada they were re-leased to the Hudson's Bay Company. It is not a country which can be occupied with any advantage, because I believe that the ■stives, and the people who are there connected with the Hudson's Bay posts, if the Hudson's Bay Company were not there to assist them during severe winters, would veiy often starve. ' 19. Mr. RoebucLl Do you know anything about the territory round the Saguaney River ? — ^l have been along the whole of the Saguaney River. ao. Is not all the land at the Saguaney River very fertQ^ ? — No ; I do not consider it is. 31. Do you remember M. Lettellier being there? — ^Yes^ I k^p^ k^ y^ well ' '. ' ,\,[ ..'\/-4,'^ |. a a. It was his opinion, I believe, that it was a very fertile terHt»iV'?— rmsy state for the information of the Committee what I know to be the fact. I have 6r8t of all been along the whole of the Saguaney River, during weather when I had an opportunity of observing the shores on both sides. I have been At the leading milling establishments on the river. It very often happens that, when grain is sown there in the spring of the year, it does not ripen ^ in the fiitt> That has very often happened dc^ng these last few years ; almost every two years. The inhabitants living along the Saguaney River have sufl^i'ed from that cause ; and Dr. Lettellier has himself been at the head of deputations making applications for assistance frvm the Government to keep the people from starving. 1 believe that there are now quite as many people along the bankb of the Saguaney River as can be maintained. I am aware tbnt the opiiuon #hioh I atai expressing here may, perhaps, hurt the feelings of bbme of the gentlemen who live in that part of the country, who would desire to Lave a brge settlement near them ; but I must say, that! do not think it would be advantageous to the settlers, or for any other purpose, that an increase in the number of inhabitants should take place there. 33. Chaimnm.'] Has any inconvenience ever arisen from the circumstance of the limits of CanUda not being actually defined ? — No ; I think not. It is desir- able that they should be ; but up to this moment, I do not know that there has been any inconvenience from that cause. 34. In point of fact, are they ascertained and defined very accurately to your mind ? — ^They are not so accurately defined to my mind as is desirable. I have never been able to discover the distinct boundaries. 0.35. ■/..■, . A 2 ,;■■;,':..- /:-■■;■■■--,. V. 25. Does ■vVc; 2%V V::, S'A' ■m \f ■I"/ '(■t.; ^'<,p-' ■M^^-f^: v^i*i':.:.!>;,;;;>*at../:.^; ii.,/ 4 MINUTE OF EVmBNGE TAKEN ^FOB£ THE /. Mm, Ei^ 35. Does that obBeiratioii apply only to the country to the west, or does it ' " appl^ to the whole circuit of the boundary of Canada ? — It applies more to the 30 Pcbnwry i«^7- 4»uatraMto the west a6. The watemshed line is the reconiised boundary to the north and north* east; is it not?-^That is taken to be tiie boundary. There is very often a ttts' pute as to where that is. > af. Mr. Kwutaird.^—Axe you not apprehensive that in that part of th j ter- ritory which comes in contact with the United States, there will be settlements made ^ the Americans, and that there will be difficulty hereafter, unless the boundary is defined?— 'fhe Americans are extending their settlements very rapidly towards the Red River, and it is very important that that boundaiy should be distinctly marked, and as soon as possible. That is my opinion witn r^;ard to that point. 28. Are any of them already, do ]rou think, coming over and settling on our territory? — It is stated that numbers have crossed the boundary; of course thitt Can only be ascertained by drawing the line. 'jg. Lord 8tanl^.2 At present the Red River Settlement is not open to trafti' in any direction, eicept that traffic which comes by canoes ?— It is not. \ 30. Is there^ in your judgment, any probability of a line of communication fit for traffic being estabUshed between the American settlements and the Red' River ? — I think it is tending to it very rapidly. ' >' 31. Do you know what the distance is finam the nearest inhabited point within the United States r — ^I should tbmk it was firom 805 to 1,000 miles. si. Mr. Charles F^tzwilliam.] Do not the Red River half-breeds continually come down from the Red River Settlement to St. Paul's r— Certainly they do. 33. 1 think every summer they come down ?— They do ; but they have t» . crpss a very lat^e extent of territory on horseback to do so. ^ 34. Do they not come down in their carts ? — Yes, so I have been told ; but a gentleman with whom I am very well acquainted, who recently crossed the country from St. Paul's to the Red River, and who was bom there, informed me, I think, that it took him 16 days to cross from the last settlement to the north of St PauFis, to the first settlement as he approached the Red River. 35. Mr. Edward Eltice.\ You have never been there yourself, have yout —No. ' ■ 36. CJmrman.\ If a man wanted to go frtun this country to the Red RiveTy what rov^ would he take as the easiest ?— By St. Paul's. 37. Lord Stani^.'\ Hirough the United States t — ^Yes. \,^. 39* Mrw Roehvj^.'] But if your scheme of a railroad were carried into effect,. he would go by that, would he not ?— Most unquestionably ; 1 should be very glad to see a railway made. ^ 39. Mx, Edward EUice,] In vhat direction do you propose to run that raiUr wagr from Canada to the Red River ; you alluded to the railways contemplated, by Mr. Whitney and others ; do you know that that scheme of railways is in connexion with the Minesota scheme of railways running up from St. Paul's % — I. do; the railway that I should desire to see carried out would be one tQ^:^ connect with our own scheme of railways in Canada. ^v 40. Are you at all aware of the practicability of a railway, except at a mosi^ enormous expense, from the head of Lake Superior, from the Canada frontier, to the Red River?— During the last 18 months an exploration has taken place along the north shores of Lake Shurun and a part of Lake Superior, and inland frotn the bofders of both lakes along the valley running westerly, and the report of the gentlemen who were instructed to make the survey represented the umd tc be Very good, bearing very fine timber, and to be well fitted for settlement; so that if we accomplished a connexion between the Canadian system of rul- ; ways and the Red River countiy, it would be throi^h the valley to the ncurth ^ , ■ V' priiake Shurun and Lake Superior until we got round Lake Superior. ^;. ^41. The country of which I am speaking lies to the west of what I underli':'' stand to be the Canadian boundary, taking the water-shed as the boundary p it runs about 500 or 600 miles from the extreme west end of Lake Superior, from the extreme west boundary of Canada to the Red River ; I suppose vour attention has not been directed to that country r — ^The extension of a railway *| |. over that country is just that of which I have been speaking ; you would only '^; ■■ haveMo make a curve if you could find a valley and get out of it at the west end cf Lake Superior upon this country which I have been mentioning. ■S.^-..- . ..:V, .• .v::«v„ ... 42. Your •^.' SELECT COMUfPmB ON THE HUDSON'S BA:¥ (X»fPANY. 5 4a. Your suireyora have not been tbvough that countty ?-~-No. ^ 43. Mr. RcebucA.] Where does your raihn^ end ?— It is now yer/ nearly cairied J. «M», l«(t Co Lake Huron ; there is another railway connecting with it whiisfa aim ruus to to Ftbrauy tt57. Lake Huron, but it runs ncnth from Toronto to Notowsorga Bay. 44. I suppose you require Acts of the colonial Parliament to enable you to make those railroads ? — We do. 45. How fiur have you got Acts of tiie cdooial Fteriiament enabling you to do so ?— >We haTe an Act m the colonial Parliament authorising the construc- tion of a branch from a town called Beileyue, near the head at the Bay of Quinty, and an arm of Lake Ontario, northerly to a river emptying itself into LakeHuton ; that is the furthest point to which the branch goes ; by extending that line you could get into the valley to the nmrth of Lake Huron, of whidi 1 have been speaking, and over which an extension to the Red River might be , made. 46. You contemplate the extension of tiiat railway to the north of Lake Huron and to the north of Lake Superior I — ^Yes, when we can get settlement and get it carried out. 47> The extension of the rpUway^ I suppose, is dependent upon the settle- ment of the country ?-r-Very much, I thinL 48. Do you believe that a ^uintry can be settled which is retained for hunting ground? — I do not. ' 49. Then the hunting ground is incompatible with the settlement of the country r-r-That is my ovm impression, merely speaking from my own notion of the matter, without being a practical hunter ; we find, as a matter of fiict, that the wild animals recede from the settlements. 50. Then the exclusive power of the Hudson's Bay Company overtime country, as a fur-bunting company, is opposed to colonization ? — I think if the Hudson's Bay Company asserted their power over any part of the country that is fit for cultivation, it would be an obstacle if they resisted the settlement of it. 51. In fact then, the contemplated extension of the railway by you is incom- pottlble with .retaining the power now possessed by the Hudson's Bay Company ? — It would be so most certainly, if they resisted the giving up of any of the territory fit for the purposes of settlement. 52. That is to say^ that so long as they retam their power over the country which can be settled, it will not be settled ? — I do not say that, because I do not know what they are willing to do ; I have had no conference with them, and ^ ^ . I am not able to say whether they are willing to give up the country which ii ■i4*-^-t'' fit for settlement. 53. But it is to be supposed that a fur company promote the interests of a fur company ? — It would be reasonabhi to suppose so. #> ;':;':^ , ^ ,54. Then those interests which are contemplated by the extension of tlie ' railway are opposed to the interests of that Company? — As I tell you, thatmUM depend entirely upon whether they would resist our carrjdng a railway through / their country ; they might give up their rights there ; it may be that there ar- I have never contemplated it in any other way than I indicated, I think in my second or third answer to Mr. Labouchere ; which is, that so fast as any part of the country adjacent to the settled parts uf Canada is required for purposes' of settlement, I think we ought to have the power of settling it, and I tlunk v . that the Hudson's Bay Company ought to be requured to give it to us. '/' .56. 1 suppose you are perfectly fiuniliar with the system of colonization oU the part of the United States under the Ordinance of 1783 ? — Yes, t think I know the whole of the system as it is pursued. 57. Have you ever contemplated the {nropriety of giving that power to the colonial Government to make territories after the fashion of thO' American Government r— It was at one time spoken of in Canada, and it was considered that there would be very great difiicultiea cmmeoted with it ; I may meutinn a fact which probably will be within your recollection ; I think it wan in thi 7 tar . 0.35. A3 io49. ■ ■/:<■ ■ Mt^ tM:'' y I ^i»u.» i r 6 MINUTES OF MiPmiQE TAKES BBFOBS THE ywi&^i J. Xm^E«|. 1840. The Canadian Governmeat granted lioenoes to certain oompaniea-for — ——' nining porpoieioD l^ake Superior; one company, I think it was called the •o fdbmaj 1857. Quebw Companf, took possession of an island, Micfaipicotbn Iriao^d in Lake Superior, and establishi^ worlu there. Certain Indians, the Garden River Inaians, known as the Garden River Tribe, and certain half-breeds, asserted that they had a right over those lands for which a licence bad been granted, and they went; by force and took powession of the Island of Michipiooton and of the works of the mining company. The Canadian Government' of cotine •nested the parties, and so £tr as the Indians w»e concerned, upon the expression of their contrition fear doing wrong, they Were forgiven, and in the end a compensation was ^ven to them to surrender their rights ; bulf that cost the Canadian Government so much money, that I HAok whatever th»|r might have considered as reguds colonization, they have felt very much alavmed at the idea of getting into contact with Indians since. 58. Then J understand your objection to be, that money should be paid by the Canadian Government. If it were paid by the Imperial Govemm^i^ I suppose you would see no objection to that compensation being made ?— The question 01 coqipenaation as regairds the Inxperiil Govcinment I have not rtiised at all. I think if the Canadian Government required Sor purposes of setdehKut •ny portion of the territo^ which is not now within their borders, sudi com- pensation as might be considered fair they might fairly be called upon to pay. 59. You did not perceive the force of my firtf questim. When they acqu^ed^ land beyond their borders, I propouaded to you the inquiry whether yoa thought it better that the acquired territory should be made a territory, or aggregated to Canada ? — I do not think that under the system of government wUch exists in Canada now, sudi a course of acquiring new territory, and governing it by means of territorial government, woidd bu oonvenieut or conducive to- the interests of Camida. 1 think they had better take what land they may require for purp(»3es of actual settlement, say to the extent of 10, 20^ SO, or 50 townships of land, «uad so fast as they want more, obtain it in the way 1 have suggested, by notice to the Hudson'a Bay Company, than that they should get a large extent of country with tribes of Indians, perhi^, occupying it, and perhaps a border difficulty, or war to deal with ; I think that would not be advisable. . 60. Would not the difficulty arise just as much whether you acquired 90 settiements or townships or 30 ? — ^It might in that proportion of 20 and 30 ; but if notice were given to the Hudson's Eay Company that within 12 mcmtha.:^ or two years the Omadian Government desired to occupy such part of the eowitry as might be fitted for settlement, the Indians whom the Budsoh's Bay .V, .. Company employ and deal with, finding that settlements were to be established, ^ '^;,^..^ ft n^ght become a question of compensation to the Indians to leave their V }■ ' ; ■ hiBnt£g ground, which I think the Canadian Government should pay, and thef ' would remove c^ that part of the territory or not continue to occupy it. The thing, I hope, would be Curly and equitably done as r^ards the Indians, abd in that way I think difficulties perhaps would not ensue. But if you take a wry large extent of territory, and by so doing take away the employment which the Hudson's Bay Company at present give to tribes of Indians, and leave them in want, they may perhaps find means, of helping themselves, and; th^ may come down upon the border settlements. .'\; . 61. Mr. Kitmaird.l You rather think that the fact of t^e occupation givei|» to the Indians by the Hudson's Bay Company has been a protection to the border country? — I am clearly of that opinion. ^. V '' '^> .. . 62. Mr. Adderiejf.'j To what degree do you think the Canadian Government could extend. its system of administration from head quarters? — At presenl> I am; not sure that it would be convenient to extend it at all. '0 63. Talking of the extension of the colony of Canada, do you consider thal^; it could, by (kgrees, take in the whole of the habitable part of the Hudson't^ Bay territory.? — I think so. «4. Lender the Government of Canada, without any local or subordinate system f — ^Yes, Idiink so, in case they, could lay o(F the townships ; but the fact is, that it would not be desirable to settle them any faster than that. a^ 65. The compensation which you suggest, I suppose would be from the Canadian territory, both to the Hudson's Bay Company and to the Indians ? — I have not sugge&ted any compensation at all. I only say that if the giving of ^;^.;^:.; compensation ( \ SEI^CT COMMirrEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 7 compenflation be equitable and fair, if the Canadian Goremment require the territory for purposes of settlement, whatever that compensation may be, .1 think it fair that they should meet it. 66. Compensation to both parties, the Company and the Indiana? — ^To bot|i parties, if any compensation should be pdd. If \he Hudson's Bar Company - surrender a territory fit for settlement, which ot course should omy be where the Canadian territory approaches it, I am not sure that for that any compen- sation should be given. I only suggest that if they are called upon to give up posts they should be allowed to retun a certain portion of the land far their employ^ about them, and hold it as a part of their own property. 67. When you speak of the possibiuty of carrying out a railway dq[)etiding upon settlement, might it not be pos^ble that the more distant parts might be Mettled first, and that the railway might pay as the means of tiiorou|^i£ure to the furthest point ?— tThe usual way ofbeginuiug such a settlement is b^ cutting a good broad road through the territory which you intend to open up, and then laying o£F your aUotibents of land tin each side for actual settlers. That wottU^ I suppose, be usually the first process before the railway was attempted to be made. You would carry on the thing in that way by degrees. > 68. Tdking of a great continent like that, supposing Vancouver's Island and the western side of the Rocky Mountaine settled, although the part between that and Canada was stJU wild, might not a ndlway be a very feasible plan as a means of thoroughfare to that part which was settled T-^-I thiiik ft might, but I think that more of an imperial question than a colonial one. 6g. Do you think that too lai^ an experiment for Canada to make ? — ^Yet) with her present resources. 70. If the whole of the Hudson's Bay territory were settled do you not think that Vancouver's Island would be most attractive to settlors ? — Yes. 71. Long before the intervening portion of the territory between that and the western side of Canada could come into settlement ?— So far as my informa* tion goes> that is the best for settlement, and would be the first settled. 72. The idea of a railroad, ultimately, is not so much for the benefit of the interior of the counti^, as for a means of thoroughfare and access to harbours on the western coast of America, is it? — That is so, and for the through trade from China and India. The construction of that railway is a most important subject ; apart entirely from the opening of the country through which ft^ would pass. ' > 73. Mr. Gordon.'] Are you aware that a society has been established, «l Toronto, for the purpose of forming a colonization to the west of Lake Superior, between that and the Lake of the Woods? — I believe there are certain gentlemen at Toronto very anxidus to get up a second North-weat Company, and I dare say it would result in something like the same difficul- ties which the last North-west Company created, I should be very iiorry to tiee them succeed. I think it would do a great deal cf harm, creatidg furthel^ ; difficulties for Canada, which I do not desfare to see created. «^ 74. You do not know anything of the hature of the society or a880ciado%v recently formed, and what weight deserves to be attached to it ?— I do know several of the gentiemen who are moving in it ; I know that at least one of them was veiy instrumental in making the difficulty which was made with the Garden River Indians, and the half-breeds in 1849, of which I hare been speaking, I believe he was at their head at the time that they seized upoQ and took possession of the Quebec Company's works upon the island of Michipicoton. 75. Then you do not apprehend that there is any general wish, on the part of the people of Canada, to have that portion of the country added to what they now have ?— I believe there is a general wish that so fast as the territory can be occupied, for purposes of setUement, means should be taken that it should be so occupied. -^ 76. Do you believe that those portions of the territory, capable of being ' colonized, are such as to afford sufficient attractiveness to bring colonists to that distance, in preference to more attainable points of settlement, much nearer the settled parts of Canada ? — I should say not at present; I should Ufy^ they much prefer the nearer lands to more distant ones. ■ ,f^ ; 77- Mr. Roebuck.'] Do you say that from your experience of colonization in* \ the United States ?— I say it ^m my knowledge of public affairs^ in Canada ;: 0.35; ^;,/p»-'f-; ■■//.-■'A^|i-'' ' *;-, '^:'-'^"\^k" solely j BO Febniary >8fi7* 8 MINUTES OF EVlDfeNCB TAKEN BEFORE THE /. Smi, Et^ solely ; I speak of \rhat I think desirable for the Canadian Government and people. t Febnurj iSg;. 78. Do you know the tatent to which new territories are created by the United States? — I know the usual process. 79. I refer to the extent of territIe might travel farther westward ? — ^You will observe that aU these territories are adjacent to settlements ; for instance, if a settlement began on Iowa, there would be a starting point for the settlement of a territory beyond, but when you have a space of 1,800 miles intervening, and probably more than that, it does not seem to me a convenient course of settlement. ^;v . 86. Is that accurate respecting the Oregon territory ; that was not contiguous to any territoiy whatsoever? — The Oregon territory was not settled firom 87. I am talking of a settlement from the United States ?— Or^on had be(a|| partially settled before the United States got possession of it. i' 88. 1 am endeavouring to point out to you that Oregon is an isolated terri- tory, far from any other settled territory, and still people go there ? — If people go there, they usually go by sea ; at least, they did so until the overland route to California was established. Of course, it is well enough known that a few persons had travelled across the continent before that time, but very few persons, an^ in going there they went round by sea ; now there is no way of getting round by sea to the Red River Settlement. If you go there you must either go directly across the country from the west end of Lake Superior, or you can take ihe better route through the United States, and by St. Paul's. ^ . 89. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.'] Is it not the fact that, annually, at least 4,000 emtovnts cross from the Missouri River to the Oregon territory ? — 1 should doubt it ; I am not inclined to believe it. v. 90. To California? — I am not able to say the number. ^"^ 91. Chaimian.'] Is not settlement pn^ressing fast in the vicinity of the Red River, on the American side of the frontier ? — Not in the vicinity, I thidc. I stated awhile ago that I thought it was at least 800 or 1,000 miles frvm the last settlement to the north of St. Paul's, to the first settlement at the Red River. 93. 1^ John Pakmgton-] Do you mean that there is no intervening settlement whateyer in those 800 or 1,000 miles ? — I believe there is no intervening settle- ment ; I may overstate the distance a couple of hundred miles. 93. Mr. Grogan."] There are railways running into St. Paul's, are there nol^ or very near it f— Within a few miles. 94. Are any extendons of those lines contemplated, in the direction of the Red River. wMch would shorten the distance that way r — I think the Americans, '"lib are interested in those roads, contemplate their extension. I do not know .^ivthing about those companies, beyond the fact that one year you have no railroad at all, and the next year a great many miles are made. 95. Mr. Edward Ellice.] I think fou said just now that Mr. Whitney, who had s?e SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 9 tnt and by the asses of rere not -ItU. utntities ob^;ha »ythem; leyooiild of Iowa? ■in was a • BO, Iowa the Iowa Iowa? — •e Canada re that all ent began i territory I probably aeut. contiguous ttled from. ihadbeMi ■jeA terri- If people and route lat a few !W persons, of getting either go bu can take least 4,000 I — 1 should of the Red 1 think. B3 from the at the Red settlement ining settle- »tion of the Americans, .0 not know ou have no hitney, who had Sf^'■''.■ ■-■'; Committee a statement of anything like the exact numbers, for I am not /Sufficiently informed. • : ;: 103. Chairman.] Is it not the case that that part of the territory of the Hud- '^'^ son's Bay Company which is valuable for the fur trade is not the part which is f>roperly adapted for settlement, but is rather a more northern and a coldr \ part r — ^That is our impression in Canada, but in that we may be wrong. ■' 103. Mr. Blackburn.] I think you say that you know no parties in Canada wishing to settle the Hudson's Bay territories ? — There are parties who wish to get up another North-West Company. ' 104. An opposition company ? — Some company who will lead to profitable Seculation. I do not think any person seriously desires to settle any of the udson's Bay territory at present. 105. Mr. Gordon.] The association of which I spoke is not a fur company at present, is it ? — It might be converted into anything. 106. Lord Stanley.] Can you state to what extent occupation has gone on up ;«;: the Ottawa River r— I could send, I think, from papers which I have in my possession, the last census returns on the Ottawa. 107. Mr. Edward EUice.] Are you aware that the Government has offered 4,000,000 of acres on the Ottawa to any company who will undertake a railway there ? — I am. 108. Mr. Roebuck.] How near do the head waters of the Ottawa approach to the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — You go north to the water- shed, I suppose, towards Hudson's Bay. 109. Have the boundaries between Canada and Hudson's Bay ever been settled? — I think not on the west. v-'^S^iT^ff-: r ■ no. That is on the north? — That would be north-west. is^# f^v *. 111. Mr. Lowe.] Has the valley of the Ottawa ever been completely sur- veyed ? — The greater part of it. ^, 112. Are there not some of the tributaries not yet surveyed, or traced?-** Yes ; a great deal of the valley has been surveyed. ^:f: ;^ 'A*:c--i. 'V .'-■ 0.25. •-A considerable portion of it ; it is merely a strip of settlement so far as' the north shore of the Ottawa is concerned. 115. Do you think that persons will be likely to go on, and settle on the Red River, till the good land on the shores of the Ottawa is taken up ;— I think not, ;irom my own experience. 116. Mr. Roelmck.l Does that arise from experience of the United States ?-^;| I speak from what 1 think are the dispositions of the Canadian people. I 117. I am speaking now of emigrants ? — I think that emigrants would pre- fer getting gocKl and cheap land as near the great lines of oomii|iu4<^M'|pn f^ ;. ■:::: . possible. ', , ^ .^.; .:^,:.;:: ' ,;.v->: '';^5^': v>Tw!^^^ '^ f; 118. Is that the case in America r— I think iio. ' ' ^" ^ ^ lie;. Would you say that that is the case in the United States, that large territories have not be colonised, when very large portions of very fertile land lying intermediately have remained uncolonised for a long time ? — I know that it has so happened, but they have always a starting point; they have always a so Febniary 1857 --■■ ' n'> . m. settlement adjacent to them. i*P'iS.- '--n.. ■•M^<, M^ h4)^ ^d^-'H^^M'Mt^'M W- 120. Is that true ? — I think so as a ride.^ 121. I point out Oregon ?— I told you that they went there in ships ; they had communication in that way. \ 22. They had no place lying near Oregon ? — ^They have now California to the south of them ; but the settlement of Oregon first began from sea ; there was an occasional pilgrimt^e across the country, at intervals of long years, of a few people ; but it began by sea, and it chiefly goes on in that way now ; they go across the country now in part, and partly by sea from CaUfornlEi ; rnd from California they go northwards in ships and steamers. 123. Mr. Kinnaird.'] I gather from your evidence that you think that what is taking place in the United States is no guide for \;hat would take place in Canada ; do you think there is a difference of feeling altogether among the two people?— I believe they all desire to get land as fast as they can on both ifeides. 124. Lord John Rmgell.'\ Is there any difficulty in governing people at a great distance from the seat of government in Canada, with regard to police or the collection of taxes ? — No; if land b? laid out in townships for settlement Vnder the authority of the Government, it is included in the adjacent country, f and it comes within the municipal regulations of the country within which it is included. 125. Chairman.'] But I believe you stated that you thought a settlement at :«o great a distance as the Red River is from Canada would be, at present at , least, an inconvenient adjunct to the province of Canada ? — Yes. 126. Mr. Gordon."] Until a road and railway were made? — Yes, until means of communication were opened up. I think if the Canadian Govern- ment desired to settle any part of the country west of Lake Superior, and de- sired to bring the Red River Settlement under their control, they would first begin by cutting a broad road through some good land next Lake Superior, : and laying off allotmenta of land, and promoting the occupation in that way. ■ v /■'f'j'i ■ it* '■. ■•''"' ^ ■ 127. Chairman.'\ You think that accessibility should first be established, and •that then annexation might follow ? — Yea. •w'128. Mr. Gordon.] Do you say that accessibility alone would be sufficien*. or accessibility an:<; possible to govern the Red River Settlement, from the head seat of goTemment in Canada, until there were good communications made between those two parts of the country ? ao February 1857 — I think it would be possible, but very inconvenient, and that the country would not be well governed. 133. Are you aware that for seven or eight months in the year it would be impossible to communicate from Toronto with the Red River, except through the United States ? — I thiidc it would be impossible. 134. hcfrd Stanlejf.li You do not mean that mails could not be sent? — I ; think it would be almost impossible to send mails in the present state of the communications. 135. Mr. Roebuck.] Could not the country gpvem itself? — I dare say it could. ^; fmi- 136. Do not they do it in the United States ? — Not communities. " ^ 137. Take a territory; do not they immediately form a government? — '^'hen a territorial government is authorised they immediately form that government. 138. Could not that be done in the Red River Settlement? — I dare say it could. 139. Chairman.'] Do you know what the rules are upon that subject? — There is a law of Congiess of the United States finng it. 140. Mr. Edward Mllice.'] What effect do you suppose would be produced upon the Indian population by forming the Red Hiver Settlement into a separate territory for government under its present circumstances? — I think experience has shown that in the United States, wherever these governments have been formed, they have come into collision with the Indians on their borders. 141. Are you aware of the war which is at present going on in the Oregon territory ?— I know from the newspapers that there is a war going on there, and that it has been going on for some time. 142. Mr. Gladstone."] Will you explain your answer as to the impossibility of communication with the Red River for several months in the year except through the United States ? — ^There are points of settlement along the north shore of Lake Huron, extending up to Garden River, and so on, up to St. Mary. During a great part of the year the mails are carried from Pentangashen, or brought across the ice to the different points where they are desired to be left. ' 143. On Lake Huron ? — On Lake Huron ; that is the only way in which the mails are carried ; very often the ice is in such a dangerous state that the crossing may not be made for a month ; the Bruce mine is another point, and the Island of St. Joseph's another, and there are large islands lying adjacent to the north coast of Lake Huron and so up to St. Mary. When you take into consideration the great depth of the snow, the thinness of the settlements, and the fact that you have to carry the mails on foot across the ice, I think till you really carry the settlement into the valley to the north of Lake Superior, you are completely cut off from communication with the Red River. 144. What was the route through the United States which you indicated as possible 5 — Round by St. Paul's, and from St. Paul's to the Red River. 145. Mr. Jtoiihuck.] There is no difficulty, then, in your view in settling the north shore of Lake Huron or the north shore of Lake Superior?— Judging from the reports which we have had during the last 18 months from our sur- veyors, there is no difficulty. 146. So that if settlement went on there would be no difficulty in opening the Red River ? — If settlement went on there would be no difficulty, as far as 1 am informed, in settling the Red River. 147. Then the idea which some people have got into their heads of an impassable morass between Lake Superior and the Red River is, in your opinion incorrect ? — That it is impassable is, I think, incorrect. I have been told by those who have travelled across the country that there is a great deal of swamp there ; 1 believe there is more broken and bad land than good lying in that country between Lake Superior and the Red River Settlement. 148. But you think it possible to run a railway there? — Quite. 1 4y. Mr. Eduard Ellice.] What is the distance, do you think, in miles, from u.a.l. . B 2 the '^<-^r .V, ^4i V, 13 MINUTES aF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE •7- ^MMf Eiq. 30 Febniary 1857, ^i- ;■-■*•' the western portion of the Ottawa to the head of Lake Superior, near the country that you hare been talking of, where a railway may be run; is it, 1,000 miles rrr^t is about 600 I shoultl think. 150. Mr. j|^/.] What is the distance! from the most distant pmat of Lake Superior to the •Red River Settlement ?—^In round numbers 1,600 miles. 151. Mr. Roebuck.'] What is the extent of yoxu contemplated railway, from the point to which vou have vow obtained an Act of Parliament, to the point which you contempWe eventually ?~We desire to have it carried across ihe continent, believing that it will be for the interests both of the Imperial uid of the Canadian Government ; and we think that the trade with China and India might be drawn over that line of communication. Perhaps it is taking rather a long flight. 152. You contemplate, then, going across the Rocky Mountains to Van- couver's Island ?— Yes, we hope to see it extended there in time. 1 53< How far is it from the head of your present railway concession, if I xaay use that term, to the Red River ?— It is upwards of 2,000 miles, I should think,^ 2,500 miles. 154. Then the railw&y to get to the Red River would pass to the north of | ;^; Lake Huron and the north of Lake Superior? — Yes. v?^ " ' ,i 155. And jrou think it perfectly feasible'?— As at present informed, I do. 156. Mr. Gordon.'] Is it not the fact that the banks of the Saguenayare extremely precipitous and inaccessible, and that that is one of the difficulties in the way of having a prosperous settlement there ? — ^The banks are very pre- cipitous ; but I was speaking of those parts which are cultivated. 157. The valleys?— The valleys. ^ fnlf' (lt'^yh>- ■^C'Pt" ■^:ii^t/^!C:;,Xi.^iq.^ ' " Iff 'f* 'W '.. •* '«*» ^^•,mAv Luna, 23» die Februarii, 1857. '^ '' •, '-t'iii ,U ' mt;i Mr. AdderieV' Mr. Bell. .7 Mr. Edward Ellice, * ^'' Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam. Mr. Gordon. Mr. Gregson. Mr. Ch'ogan. Mr. Gurney. Mr. Percy Herbert. MEMBERS PRESENT. ■5*¥'f!» ^, . Mr. Kinnaird. ;■./•;■■," 'ft>''i/";;i- i« :>.'! '■ Mr. Labouchere. f^:' ":<. .Wf/ ■',' ■ -^ Mr. Lowe. ■''=•■;**#'; i-'*^ ijtiWvii Sir John PakiDgton. J^ if< :th:-^P''-^; Mr. Roebuck. ■:' ;*'^''V:: " .->• Lord John RuB8ell.*j|f r *> ''i^tv, % ,:,.,5^ ,;iMV 'mM;M^ ^Mi>-i\;.'^^4i Viscount Sandon. :i^.-;:i^:-:^-.- ', , ^yM^.,V^.^i ir-.r ^' Lord Stanley. ^ $j;,;i^,%:,i-ii; ,itv^ i\.::y.^i... ,.., .,,., ; ... i()2. Did \flK 'A i-oL ■fti.u'' ,'''t.»«.i, ■.<;.:;■ \ SELECT CX>MMITTBE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY C50MPAN Y. 1 3 Did you go at all to th^ west side of the Rocky Mountaiiu? — Not The Cominittee will be glad to hea|r your opinion of the physical state Lieut-Colonel J. H. Lffns, a. a. ^^■"V:" 1 6a ataU. of that country with reference to the capacity for cultivation and settlement? '^ '«>»"^ > 57' — ^The general qpinion which I was led to form was, that agricultural settles^ent can make but very slender progress in any portion of that region. 164. Did you visit the Red River Settlement ?— I did. . 165. is not that a part of the country very well adapted for agricultural >< purposes ? — The Red River Settlement is pretty well adapted for them, although it does not bear comparison with the best parts of the British American ^ colonies ; but it forms but a small proportion of the whole region. 166. Do you mean to apply the observation which you have made to the 'i;#l- country generally that borders upon the limits of Canada at present ? — I should ' - -^ : apply it particularly to that country, so far as my observation goes. As we proceed to the interior, we do come to a region in the neighbourhood of the :-i:'-t'-0'H^i Rainy Lake, and between the Rainy Lake and the Lake of the Woods, which ; " "ji^-^^^^' seems to me to possess agricultural facilities. It seems to have the conditions ..^'^;h^>'t t^ of soil and dimatenot much more unfovourable, perhaps not more unfavourable, j ^'-^^..-^W'^ than in many parts of Lower Canada. V ^ fi'^^^' 167. When you say that jrou think that, generally peaking, there is not ^j/^i ;^ •''; much land contained in the territories to the east of the Rocky Mountains beyond the' borders of Canada, which is calculated for settlement and cul- tivation, do you say that chiefly on account of the nature of the soil, or on account of the nature of the climate? — On account of both causes. With regard to the nature of the soil, a very large portion of the region is primitive in geological formation, almost entirely denuded of soil. The frosts are so intense, that over a very large portion the soil is permanently frozen. The seasons are so short and so uncertain, that crops are liable to be cut ofiF by unseasonable frosts at periods that make it almost impossible for the husband- man to reckon with any certainty on a return. 168. Do you know the Saskatchewan district ? — I have been once up and once down the River of Saskatchewan. 169. Is there no land in that district which you think would be susceptible of cultivation and fit for settiement ? — Undoubtedly there is such land in that district, and it is along that district and a little to the north and south of it that the agricultural land is to be found. Cultivation has actually been tried with some success at Fort Cumberland on the Saskatchewan ; wheat has grown there ; with uncertainty, however, from the cause I alluded to just now, but still sufficiently to add greatly to the comforts of the residents of the district. 1 70. Are you acquainted with the country which belongs to the United States to the south of the border between the two countries? — I am not. 171. Lord5ton2ey.] You spoke of an attempt at cultivation in the neigh- bourhood of Fort Cumberland. The settlement at Fort Cumberland, I believe, ( was not made for any purpose of colonisation, but simply as a trading post ? — ; ; <~ - Entirely so ; but there we^ a small attempt at settiement on a spot imme- ' '^\ , i diately adjoining, called on the maps the Basquiau River, but commonly called .<'; in the country the Pas ; a settlement of civilised or christianised Indians has ^ been formed there for the last 10 or 12 years, and they have succeeded, iO; y some degree, in cultivating the ground. ; > ; 172. Do you know what crops arise there? — They grow wheat, barley, k^^,.« ., * potatoes, and various vegetables. 173. Mr. iioeftHc A.] Do they grow any Indian corn? — No. I believe that 1^^, 1. , Indian com will not ripen except by matter of accident in that region. t'y ••\; \ 174. Mr. Grogan.\ With regard to the wheat, was it a crop that could be "''■?• ■»• '-•-> depended upon at all ? — 1 am inclined to think not, but I do not speak with ;?' ;=*'f. Company, do you know whether, on the northern parts of that river, the banks ,;. pre habitable, or not? — The Red River Settlement occupies, in a straggling / manner, about 50 miles of the course of the Red River itself, and a portion of that ground is under cidtivation ; not very much, because the habits of a great proportibn of the population of the country are opposed to regular industry. ^ 199. It being under the command of the Hudson's Bay Company, does liot the Company rather favour htmting than cultivation ? — At the Red Kiver Settle- ment I think the Company favours cultivation, because unfortunately the bufiidoes swarm in the surrounding regions, and the great difBculty is to keep the people to steady habits of industry, and to induce them to refrain fii;>/i, Aw^/^ i'it-:-.ff&km\ ^limvi 204. Is it not a remarkable fact, established by 'all ^x:^riehc<^, that wherever limestone is, cultivation is possible ?— I believe so ; it is a most fiivourable district. "'■'■■\ -yi^awf- 205. You say that the geological condition of the c6iitttry Is primitive ?-^Not there. ' 206. But by the Saskatchewan River ? — To the eastward of Lake Winnipeg and along the line of descent to Canada on the north side, and northwu>ds again through the line that I travelled, except the Peace River, where we come tc the secondary formation, the general character of the region, I should say, without giving myself authority as a geologist, is primitive. 207. Is not that the case with Lower Canada generally r — On the north shore of the St. Lawrence, but not the south ; but there you have very little culti- vation ; the north shore of the St. Lawrence below Quebec is a primitive region. 208. Above Quebec ? — I think not ; but I speak with deference there. 209. Are you at all aware of a publication, by Mr. Isbester, of the geology of that country ? — I have never seen it. 2 1 0. While you were there had you occasion to see much of the Indians ? — I took a great interest in the Indians, and I took what opportunities were given me of inquiring into their condition, and of seeing them, but my scientific duties left me very little leisure for anything else. 211. W^hat were your scientific duties directed to? — To terrestrial magnetism ; making observations of the magnetic dip, and the magnetic variation, and the magnetic force of the earth in that region. ' , v 0.25. B 4 212. Then v>, ■■ :.v ' '^ ■ '-,1 -'*t' •:'i, ^f;^':., ■sc ■ *>^f . -%■■ ■ i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE r^f. ■\'. :W -..>/f i:- ^*;ii'# Kftnt.-Colonel JZI2. Then if 70U had not much time to considet the state of the Indians, J. h. i^finji, K. A. iiaj you much time to consider the phylcal condition of the country ?— The physical condition of the' country meets one's eyes in all directions, whereas 99 Febroary i«57. the Indians are but rardy met with ; and I did not speak their language, and did not always have an interpreter with me, but I used to converse with the residents at the forts. 213. How do you judge of the fertility of « soil which is not cultivated? — tif those portions which are cultivated ; by the known facts of science affecting cultivation, and by the jHroportion of alluvial soil visible at the surface. 214. Over that territory did you find large woods ? — ^I have jdaoedbefne the Chairanaa a map on whidi the region of prairie is indicated by a green tint ; north aud east of that region there are woods. 215. All to the north of Lake Superior is woody country ? — Until you get to a very considerable distance north ; but I beg to say that the wood in tbat countiy, the pine, which is tiie most prevalent wood, will grow in any crevice in which there is any moisture, and I have seen pines of livge sbe growing on a granite rock as hard as this table, simply by the moisture which was found in the crevices. You cannot infer that that is a soil fitted iac agricultural pur- poses firom the fact of there being wood. . 216. Not from the fact of there being pine-wood, but if other hard wood grows you may do so ? — ^Yes ; those woods having a tap root, but a great num- ber have not. 217. Is not that the mode by which people who explore a country for agri- ; If *r;/ , cultural purposes determine the capability or the country for agriculture, namely, from the wood upon it; in America, I mean ? — It is one of the modes; it is a superficial oae. ''if 218. Where you find large quantities of trees of five feet in diameter, and 4:^ large beech trees, would you not at once say that that is a cultivable soU? — ' !;. Unquestionablv ; but there is not a tree of any desoription five feet in diameter '} in the Hudson s Bay territory on the east side of the Rocky Mountains ; the largest pines, which are the largest trees there, seldom exceed three feet in ■■H:^ diumeter. v^4^> A 219. Supposing there were trees of three feet in diaiheter, would you not say w-' tbe soil was good? — Yes. I have seen that in islands possessing a depth of ;.:l alluvial soil brought down by floods. The island on which Fort Simpson, on the Mackenzie River, is built, is of that description ; and very fine timber is to \- be found there. :' -^ 220. You say that you have not seen any evidence that the climate has ameliorated? — I have seen none, ij^^'-;' ■■^;^^^ .Kt^^ c 221. Are you at all aware historically of the state of Etitope in centuries C^ — Yes ; I am aware that there is reason to suppose that the climate of pe in former times, before cultivation was so general,^ was colder than it is now; the winters were colder. Having given considerable attention to that ' : subject, I may state generally that the result of my inquiries leads me to this conclusion, tiiat the effect of cultivation anywhere in America is to diminish the extremes of temperature both in summer and in winter, but to leave the mean annual temperature not much affected by it. Meteorological observa- tions were commenced at Toronto, in Canada, in 1840. I was myself engaged with them about 1 1 years ; and I of course had experience of a great variety of hot winters and cold winters, and summers also. Since I left it, which was in the year 1853, they have had extremes in both directions that fall far without the Umits of my observation ; they have had three winters of such severity as I never encountered in all that period, and they have had hotter summers ; it therefore shows that conclusions based on dat^ not derived from observations ' ^; , over a long series of years, comparable and accurate ones, are very likely to, deceive us. ;;■ ; • ' , 222. The sensations of a ms^ are very misleading ; but supposing, for example, that formerly the territory bore reindeer, and that the rivers of that territory 'k were annually frozen, and that now reindeer will not live there and the rivers are never annually frozen, would you not say from those data that *he country had ameliorated in climate ? — 1 should say so, if I wiis acquainted with no other facts ; but 1 am acquainted with a fact with regard to the habits of the reindeer which f :;.f-' ■•'^<, ■■'^■" 9rte;;-;A. ,.;;;';; i;,^,j «,;:■,. ,(^,i- ;,<,;> \..^,:.-jMi. SBLECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 17 f^-. which would render such a conclosicm insecure ; until the year 1882 the rein- I.ievt. vs«fii4rj^Mvi?o.!{;.fH te>«i,i* -(if w 233. Does not that fall into Lake Superior r — It dixdns, I believe, intfli Lake Superior ; I never was there. 234. Therefore, may we conclude that it is higher than Lake Superior and the land through which it runs ? — Of course. 235. If on the shore of Lake Superior there are not morasses, we may con- clude that there are not morasses between those two points ? — Hardly that. . Morasees are to be met with at the highest points. In fact, it will be found, as a general rule, 1 believe, that the districts which furnish the sources of rivers are always districts of morass. I could point to three or four instances of that on the map. Probably, Honourable Members can find on their maps the Kiver Savan ; the Dog Lake will be found on the map not far above Lake Superior. If you follow the line of boundary between Lake Superior and the Rainy Lake, about midway between the two you come to a very elevated 0.25. ..•i": ^,-:f..;:. ■:^0^,' ^ "<^' V ■ -■ district :m ^BW«^«i^P^«P» tgiWfimm^ |l87. ;.^'- .; -v>- .Vj»- ' -ct -■ -^m'A.< ■'V.. ■» ■ :^'''^.V'>/ '■ •,:■',: !>■ ■■>■*; , y>f-V; .:-:.>^, y •■ '.■'^ ' ^ 1 .,*.'■ ''■u-^!^;. ' %" ..•.^'■ '0\:S^k'::j-- ,!,:-^-..^.:-r ■■■(,/,.■. ■■ ■ jI'^^..'*'\- ' '_. N;^;- .', ■'' ■'■ "■'•■_;:•■■ .-( ■ ■ ■ ' IM^^'-'-' M:t'-:. ■ " .ft. ,';-?>*||r- _ ■ '-^ ■■.>(>'/ ^ ■ ■ ^ t ■■■ ■ . J■^ ^ ' •■-,. '■-. •'■i ' . -^ ,- -■ , * * ^ . -■..>!i-i;V' . ■ , ,. -■.■:l'v-r\\,." /.,', .'"■".' ; ;:';^."'^;-.>*-n>r''':' ' "' ^.'-^^ "y ';*■ ' ■?- "''■'''.y'''" ■ :'-v:^/ - -'\^. '^-^12: ■ ,' > ' ■■ .' ^ . ■'-^. - t ./■ ■ ■•?■*■■ _-?";■> -.\ --,'V*'- »i.- ■.■■i<. "•■:• • ■.•■,-■■ ■,.,!.' i1. . , ;^:- *.;^:t%c;ii- .;:..;•': ■ ' •*: '-=:^;*.,^ ::•■. &.{;> *^^ ^ ,.■)*! <■>"• ' »'■.,■' ■'•»,, ■?J,v ' '" '■ V *'-:■'/-' V'"' '/.'■;,. ■:. '^ri^f-'v. ■ .«' ■■■- ..-,-^-v\ ;|^^|:u-" ■■ 1- ■ . , ' J'.Y-:. 'V''n--V'./ ^'' '" - - t^^'-. ■'"'■ -'..m: 18 MINUTES OF BVIDENCB TAKEN BEFORE THE ttMricK wliidi fiindtheg the source of rivers fiiUing in both directions into HvdsoB'ft Buf, and into Lake Superior and the Atlantic. That region is one of imuumat pbyneal difficulty in consequence of morasses, and every trader knows tbe Savannah morass, the Prairie portage, and the great interrupttons whidi he has to pass, with extreme difficulty^ in consequence of there being twuam al' what is the height of land of that region. '^30; Are you aware that there is a scheme now in commencement, rather than anythi^ elsci of carrymg a railway akmg the northern shore of Lake Superior, and eventually across the Itocky Mountains to the Pacific Ocean ?— • 1 haire sete proposals to that effect. «37. Do those plans contemplate any impassable barrier on the northern Aore of Lake Superior } — I'hose plans have always seemed to me to be drawn cm the engineering principle of laying down an air line, and then assuming that oapitid-wiU catry you along it; but the physical difficulties of doing it would be enormously great, and I cannot persuade myself that such an undertaking WMiddbe conducted with any commercial advantage. aaS. Mr. Grogan.] You spoke of the population on the Ked River Settlement BoHMiitg very lai^, owing to the difficulty of access. If there were a railway ia' that direction capable of being constructed, would not that difficulty be obviated ^— It would, undoubtedly ; but it always appears to me, on studying tiie nap, that the natural affinities of the Ked Uiver Settlement are with the vriliay of the Missouri, and that we shall be going against nature if we try to IfBBoe it into the valley of the St. Lawrence. . sjo. You flomider that the natural direction is to go into the United States ? •~~11niidt 80; I do not think that the route by the St. Lawrence can ever eonlpete commercially with the route to the south. ^,_, 240. You have illustrated your local experience for a period of 12 or 1« yeara-;^ you have said that your general observations in the country were inwiffieieBt to aiable you to form c(HTect data? — I'hey were insufficient to obtain the &ct of the highest or the lowest temperature, or to furnish a mean frUoh was not liable to be disturbed by the observations of another year. ^: ^41* Do any records exist at the different stations of the Hudson's Ba)r Conqpaiiy whereby the increase or decrease of temperature can be ascertained ? T'l asa sorry to say that the records of that region are exceedii^ly slender, 'almost valueless in a scientific point of view. Sir John Kicharddon has oollectrd ia his last work of travels the best information he could get, but the data are most scanty. 244. Jn> point of fact, does the impression exist in the country that the climate of that district is ameliorating ? — 1 never heard of it. 343. With regttrd to limestone, is the district where the limestone prevculs c" any extent? — ^l^e western shore of Luke Winnipeg is entirely limestone, but there is no soil on it; it has literally no soil in many places ; it is as bare as your hand. ;. 244^ < The rock' 'is on the surface?— Yes. h^i^i%i^Jifr-l'^;mii,^.''i:l^l 345. The soil does not cover the surface completilly ?— I did not explore with Buffioient accuracy to give an opinion upon those points. I must beg that my lobaelrvations may be considered as relating priucipally to the routes that I travelled over. 1 did not explore the interiors ; I went over the great routes of communication only. '^46. Are you able to speak of vegetation, whether it e \ists in detached portions of that district ? — 1 can speak more positively of that, because 1 madeiuquudes about it, the subject having engaged my attention. The points where cultivatioa was more carried on were these : there was the Red River Settlement, where there was very considerable cultivation, and Fort Cumberland, and the Basquiau Hiver, in the Saskatchewan district, and Lake La Crosse ; at Fort Cumberland there were about 10 acres of ground under cultivation ; at Lake La Crosse, a little to the north of Cumberland House, there were also about 10 acres of ground under cultivation, yielding barley ; at Lake Athabasca, where i passed a winter, which is further north again, potatoes of a small size could be grown, but there had been no success in growing barley, or any cereal at all. At Fort Simpson, on Mackenzie's River, where it turnn to the northward, just at the angle, on a large island of deep alluvial soil, farming was unusually successful ; there were regular crops of barley, regular cattle, and a very good garden. That is in about latitude 62° I think : barley grew there very weU indeed. ■i47. Sir «ij(.' ■T^-Ks.-:' '^ ., , ''^fii: i?. •.'/ ',■■•>•■,'■ :. ■■', '>' ■ivrc, SELECT OOMttlTTEE OtI THE HUDSON'S BAY COf^tPANY. i^ 1^7. ^\*fi- ■^l '^^i! ■ ,■)''•' 347. Sir John Fakingtou.] Were you thfre youmlf ?— I fMMMed «'bont fBMr months there ; barley was even grown with Bueoeu ; thiU is to sajr, Mrfidentfy ^ M, lEfl^H^ *• * 80 to be worth the labour bestowed i^Km it by the trader, and to funuth gndn to add greatly to the means of sabsiateBce ot the small family ooev^qring a trac^ post at that station ; they were able to pick the very bwt pwoes of ground to be found. Also at Fort Norman, in lat. tf4* 3 1', barley waa grown, and that is the most nortiiem spot in America where any grain haa b«ea gnmn. 348. Mr. Grogan.] Was that the osly cereal crop grcmn in that locality f-^ Yes ; wheat would not grow in either place; but I was toJd, I am not aom with what authorit}', Uiat wheat had been grown about etery third yoar, it being, in the intermediate years, cut ofF, at Fott liard, not fiir to the aoadi of Fort Simpson. 249. Was there any peculiar gexdogioal formation in that locaUtyvriydi conduced to the growtli of the barley there, so much more northwavd than at Foart Cumberland ? — ^At Fort liard it is the tail of the prairies i there ia a long high belt of prairie land which runs as far as the inunediate neighbourhood of that spot ; it is immediately under the shelter of the Rocky Mountains^ and the climate is undoubtedly, as you approach the Pacific, much milder than it la to the eastward. 250. What distance would you say that Fort Simpson is from the Padfia or from the sea coast ? — I think it is about 500 miles ; I am not quite sure. ■25 1 . Mr. Charles FUzwilUam.'] Do you mean in a direct line, or to aome particular point ? — In a direct line. I think I made out that it was 500 miles from Sitka, which is the point where observations were made at the time that I was there ; and therefore I had occasion to ascertain the distance from one point to another ; but I speak from memory, and may not be accurate. 252. Mr. Grogan.'] Do you consider that the difference of distance from the sea coast of Fort Simpson and Fort Cumberland was sufficient to account tot that change ?— It is one of the facts which go a long way towards accounting for it. itj* 353. You mentioned that at Fort Simpson they were able to grow cerM' crops, which at Fort Cumberland and the Red River Settlement were of so uncertain a nature that thev could hardly be relied upon 1—1 did not intend to say so much as that. At Fort Cumbei^land and the Red River Settlement they grow wheat, which they do not at Fort Simpson ; and with regard to the com- . parative uncertainty of the crops in the two places, I do not think I said any- thing. I suppose the crops are much less uncertain at the Red Kiver than they are at Fort Simpson ; but the cultivable portion of the soil at the latter place was confined to the island of which I have spoken ; on the mainland, on eidier side, you get into a morass, which could certainly not have been culti^rated. 254. Then you imagine that the island is the peculiarity ? — Yes ; it is due to the depth of alluvial soil upon an island, and to its being pretty well sheltered by large woods, which that soil enables to grow. f* 255. Mr. Gordon.] In traversing the course of the Saskatchewan had you an opportunity of making any observations upon its mineral resources f'— Very slight. I ascertained that in the neighbourhood of Edmonton, one of the forts most to the eastward, coal is to be found, and workable coal, because it was used by the blacksmith for his foi^ ; but I do not think in any great quantity. 256. Did you observe over what length of tract of coun^ Aat coal extended ? — It probably extends to a considerable regioii, because it is found again in one of the feeders of the Peace River, near Dunvegan. 257. You believe those to be portions of the same toaot? — There is no doubt of it, I think. ^ t^'ti i*-!^ 258. Are you acquainted with both branches of the Saskatchewan ?~I8(a|; the south. *' 2.r,9. Mr. Roebuck."] Are you acquainted with the length of the winter at fit. Petersburgh ? — No ; I cannot speak with any assurance upon that subject. 26i>. In the Baltic generally? — No; I cannot speak with any confidence upon those subjects. 2C1. Then you are not able to say whether the winter of that territory is shorter or longer than the winter in the Baltic } — I should be glad if you would be kind enough to define what you mean by " the winter ;" meteorologists con- fine the term " winter" tp the months of Deoejpber, Japufyry «od Fsbruary. ■Hi m We '■i^ 0.25. ' M" i^y ^m» 362. I am -:,<:-;;'*''■ & h^b'. aa MINUTEJ9 or EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE »-* ;:«' .■y*''. '■■■ ■«»ii. . - V ■ f'^?-,- ,.'f V .>4*»- : '■'''> .it ;^i '. ■ ■#; ■ ■ -.i '.*•' |.-V -. -■■■■' K- .v-y«^, f^id ::r''* IJa«t<^G«lMd 362. I am talking of a matter of flaet, not / •:v'/%^|^^ *• a66. Is the difference a marked and decided oner — Unquestionably so; i£ *\_;/^'-^lfafeiJts"yOu everywhere in America, that the further you go to the westward along :.\ ,ythe same parallel of latitude, you come to a milder climate. - .,.^ v^'v ' 367. Mr. Roebuck.'] Is that the case on the east of the Rodcy Mountains ?— ^ V -;:, tiaisno in the southern latitudes. "*■ ^^^'"'^ ^^9»«'*v?wr?rfi'. ^^-m-^rm^^ ^a^-^p-: '^ ,: 26s. Sir John Pakiwion.] To what cause do you attribute the dilference ra| [ dimate ? — It is difficuU to ^ve an answer to that question directly. The pre-' ; valent winds in the region beyond the tropics have a great influence upon the J.';. climate of the counti^es which they pass over. You find that the prevalent I"; ytutds in the extra tropical region being from the westward, those winds bring 1 ;fi^ Padfic Ocean a U^ quantity of moisture, which moisture has a tendency to ameliorate the climate of the regions which receive its first benefit.. As they proceed fUrther to the eastwud tbw lose a portion of that ' g ! :»: indisture, and pass over regions, frozen or covered vrith snow through a large ';> • ,• part of ihe year; they come down to Canada more severe, of course, and \ ' ' charged with less moisture, and actually colder by having given up latent heat ., tp the re^on^ they have passed over, than nearer to the west. . . 3^5^. What are the prevailing winds on the eastern side of this part of .^merica?— I should be glad to reserve my answer to that question because I ^puld wish to speak with accuracy. The prevailing winds, on the whole, are Westerly ; t^ey are rather from t^^ w,^^tern, semicirole tiian from the eastern, r Ijelievethey are north-westeriy, ;g;^t4'^nrIr»i>:1;H^:, £#^ ^, 370. How far to the westward have you penetrated r — ^Nearly as fir as the Rocky Mountains, but not over them. My limits westward were Dunvegan, on ; i' the Peace River, and Edmonton on the Saskatchewan. -ii^. 271. Do you attribute the power of producing barley so ito. north as Fwt Simpson to that comparative neighbourhood to the Pacific to which you have referred? — ^In a very great degree 1 do. 372. Can you state what is the general difference in climate between Fort Simpson and these other settlements in the neighbourhood of Lake Winnepeg r — The difference of mean summer temperature between those two regions I believe to be but little ; but I am reluctant to speak with precision ujjon these points, because if they have value at all, it is as scientific facts, and I confess that I am not sufficiently armed with them at this moment, to be able to be positive. 273. Fort Simpson has, of course, a much severer climate, I presume ? — Very much severer, taking the year round. 274. You bpoke in the early part of your examination of the district which you were then speaking as bdng permanently frozen, so that the crops could not be grown ; to what part of this district did you apply that expression, of " permanently ••57* :^^ ■XM "'*■*■ SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAT COMPANY. 31 "pomonently frozen" }—-l am unable to atate very extenaire beta upon that liMt^«|«Ml BUDJect ; the soil at York Factory, on Hudson's Bay, is permanentljr frmen. J- B. Ij^ <*- 275. Mr. Hoebuck.} How far north is that f-^lt is about 67 degreca, I think, not so far north as Fort Simnson ; the soil there does not thaw in the summer •} more than about three feet deep, and it is frozen to about 20 feel permanently. u;6. Sir John Pakington.1 1 apprehend that you did not mean to apply that expression, " permanently nozen in the sense in whidi I think you used it. namely, as applying genonlly to this district, but only to particular parts ? — Of course; it is a very lu^ region ; thedistrictis.aa large as Europe, and has great differences of dimate. 377. You applied the term generally. I presume there is notlung im which you could apply the term " permanently frozen " in the nature of t»e dimate about the Red River Settlement, or even at Fort Cumberland Station ?— Fort \ Cumberland, I believe, is near the limit of the region whwe the ground is per- manently frozen; more accurately speaking, I thfaik Lake La Crosse is about that limit atu 378. There is cultivation at Fort Cumberland, is there not } — I do not n^ean to say there is not cultivation where the ground is permanently frozen ; at the most northerly point I have spoken to, namely, Fort Norman, on Mackenzie's River, the ground is permanently frozen to me depth of 45 feet, yet there k cultivation. ;.-3 379. What do you mean by " permanentlv fit>zen " r — I mean that it never thaws except at the surface. I had a remarkable opportunity of ascertaining that fact by a great landslip on the banks of the Mackenzie River, exposing a completely permanent frozen soil to the depth of 45 feet. The surfiace thaws to the extent of a foot or two. in the more open situations, it thaws of course^ to a greater depth. it '■''•. ' 880. Under those circumstances, with a depth of permanently froaen gcovmi' ' of many feet, and only thawed very superficially, does the ground admit of cultivation ? — Not, I think, with any profit ; indeed, a white population accua* toined to civilised life cannot find subsistence. ' ' 'E;88i. The ripening of the crops under those circumstances must be preca- rious ? — Yes. There is a difference between absolute cultivation }delding small returns for the support, or the assistance of other means of support, o^ a veiy small communihr, such as is to be found at all these forts, and one on which a large community can permanently depend. All over that country, although they have a crop in many places, they depend principally upou nah, and tae dried meat of the buffalo. 382. What is the population of the Red River Settlement ? — In 1843 or ; it was about 5,000, according to the information given me. 283. What pupulation is there at the northern settlement of Fort Cum- berland, or Norway Hoxise ? — It does not in any one instance, I imagine, amount to 20 persons permanently resident. At some seasons of the year there are others coming and going, and the Indians occasionally frequent them. Not, of course, including the Indians inhabiting the districts supplying those stations with their furs ; but taking the residents, you will find 10, 20, or 30, according to. the means of subsistence. 284. Are there any European inhabitants in the district between the Red River and Cumberland Fort and Norway House? — None, but the traders in the Hudson's Bay Company's employu:ent. ''385. Is Lake Winnipeg open for navigation for any length of time in the summer? — Not for long; 1 shoiUd suppose that Lake Winnipeg is open fur navigation from May till about the end of October. J 286. The whole lake would then be open ? — Yes. i? . *';^^^. - '^ ! ^f^l^ ' 287. Mr. Roebuck.] Do you know how long the St. LaWteiiide fi open at Quebec? — It varies extremely in different seasons; but the St. Lawrence at Quebec is generally open early in April. -'' '- '^^i\ ■ -^ rs*^. *""r i* 3- * sP'^t '" 388. I beg your pardon?— In April. ' . - > > - .i. . 289. Not till May. Do you not know that after the nionth of November begins, the insurance upon ships doubles r — I am quite aware of that ; but I am equally aware that the lust vessels leave Quebec very late in Noreiither, and 1 have known them leave in December. '< * ', iJCT' _ 290. You say that you attribute the possibility of growing barley at Fort Simpson to its proximity to the Pacific ?r-I attribute it \n a great degree to that fiact. ^''■■-;*- "■•■■>'• v"^^"-\ ,,''''■• '"'"■' "■ 0.25. Vs C3 t 291. Does ^^i n IQli^lpS'C^ £1^PEN^ TMLSN %FOS£ 1^9 ttc^wtitt lower Iktttadik T hav» JMai tnmr over the whdli naiM of tlw Kbskf IfMntdM «rlllili ti«w iti Mm; ihenifore, I nresume tiiat ifbey m« Qarcnd#ltiiaM#dm6«tttftey«Mrf0Mid. 993. The Mwc«tKHlYeg, south'^afrt. *'i&S:^tJbmni^tM.Ynnl^ of th« Rocky Moimbhii fai the KlW dm^iioni tiv^timt mimiomf^f^ i lUM ahitade of the great puaes h^Ml!^t&|8MlaUoh^<*iiJhiiidthe(^ been avcertalnedifith toler- able predsion, but not ftirtlier to the north. 396. What la it iOwte ?~-'I do not like to apeak from memoiy. 9^j. Mr. Et^Mtri. EHic«.^ On ordlnaiy nuow the highest range is marked.fi|t abqut }5,opO or, 16,000 feet, ia h not ?— Hat the paaa is much Iq^wer thjitf^ agd. Mr. OtMmn.] Yoa spoke of the bariey , for inatanoe, having been ripened at Fort %npso& ; do you attribate that to any greater quanl^ of rain that maf Mth«eifluni-]< belfavrf ve^ Bineh. 30a. And of course further north ?— Further north stillmore so. ''''S<»3> Hare you«baer«ed-The Bladifeet; there are five or she tribes 'irhich go Under the general pame ef Blackfeet ; the C^reea, who inhabit; the tow«r pfnUon of tiw region, seem to have less savage tendf^caea. '■■■.■■. . j|0(S) Isitsafeto travel there, onemr tviro pecole together ? —Under the pro- tectionrxtf the IbMlson'si Bay ConHamy it ^ouid be done with perfect sa£ety< S r307< ^fifat thi^ that a lattway eould he made with fooility, from any p^it in Minesotl^ to Uie Red River ?r-Yes. , 308. from what place?-«^l think aimiaBtaavwhere. 309. J;tomJki.FMa>^«^Ye»l I should think; it might. 310. Mr. Pery Herbert.] You sppke of tlu district be t wewi the Rainy ^ke and &e Lake of the Woods, as being not much inferior to Lower Canadit': is that district of whli^ ybu spoke of considerable extent f-^ I do not dkfaik it k ol inreat extent, hut tt; must be to the extent of several townships, as they are hdd out in Canada. 311. Woidd the district betw< that and Lake Superknr admit of a eom«' lnunii»tion with Lake Superiors— It would admit of a communipation by going to a very great expense ; the distance is not very great, but you have to pass over a region of swamp and morass, and a river which is not navi^ble ; there is a line of detached lakes, communicating by streams and rivers, which are not navigabJb. 3ii2. Mr. G^^«on.3 Upon tSie whole, what inducements are there to attract em^ration to these regions ? — I do not myself think that emigration can be judiciously itf * ivftd, niBHintfc mode of Hfe. Then k an aliindaBWoftiM of J. « il^arjk Mfe af the B '^■ t»tlw &«igitfc vpon all )MttM# tlMt t&^ oawote b« aqpoHad at Apvofit. But petaoDB wEo will be content iiMi itrfloiani for fhr paattng boor, and whb'bvfi a torn for wild aemi-^ivUlaed lift, will «i^ tiMaaMurea theffof mveli. ,313. CAiurman.] It ktipMtyimtMkf eomiirf, kit niA 314. During joiyr reaidoDco in thatr ,oMiii(|rv bad fm my OMortayWaa of fonoinc^ an ofUBion of the mncial #1^^ Bay Conprny, so for aa vtuatea to OMrigr oondud toMwda tlte hMm tmA, ^btir node of |ni«errfaig tb^ pMce of the cooiMiyf-^llM bMl |B«aervalt'«a far the peace of the country waa taken by the HUmoc ^ ^y CooiBttOf afanift tiM year 1832, when they entirrfy diffooirtintteA aen^teit apMta Into it, ar, I hdiere, iwt endrely, but almost entirety. Since imt tfanebuKid fofods and quairdi MBong the Indiana have cBminiabrd Tcry nnich indeed^ . Xhf> wMtii populalbn ia ao ▼ery amaU that there la yery ^!t'i. ^alim, |iaoM^rf^« M^ q^ dfiea ooour thcfe, is, I believe, treated at liic JSted Rrifer Jw^^ the Uw oflbief ^ere,^andhetpldnMthattheg|iAlwfA|^a^^ IhaKevethcn^ is very little crime there. 31 5. Is there aecurity of trfrelUng tlvm Jhl^Meci . s^ourMgr* mi^ 4 the head of the Saskatchewan, and among i)M» utarl^ trihea» wh^ are soipi^^et no rei^cters of persona, and whoi win ;^Uage ^kf&r Mst firi<»4>- 316. Mr. C^lei FitxmUiam.'] VVhatdo yott call the warlike triiwa^-^tbfr Blackfeet, mostly. , 317. Mr. Edward EUke.] those wldidii^'neakeat the |h^^ 318. CfiainttaH.) Do you ajiprehind that there has been n'tvtf effect!^ ched( to the use of ardeqt smrits among the Indians, hyibje mnuuiNBt ^kep by the liudKw'i Bay Cwnpai^l^I am oonfid^t that thef^ baa, oter Ihe whote region except the Sa^kAtchewan, where the necessity of met^i^ thiff -AiVaty^ iBi in some degree with thc4r own veapon^ had obliged a vei^r Ils^ttedusf^of ^ph1t6 ; but the rule, if I am not misinformed, was, that ror one mtton of ruJDd. they put seven gallon^ of watpr ; the f ]^ jf^ed wag f* i^uoi^ ifthited t%t j^ .^'na| much effect. ' ':,■ ''■■'■-'.%.'' ' \ ":*'"',,":,' -^''.■ ' 319.; Mr.CWfitsfSfairtl&M.] Isitnottruethat Am^cans6n»^Bngin '^u^^ are subject to a very severe fine r— I believe there is that law in the Umted States, but it is evaded eonatanUy. 320. Have you not heard of a trader being setit down m chiiinB'froin the post to the United States r— No } I know that. A^n^ricans do tri4e iMgeiy in liquor on the Missouri. ' ":^ yii. Mr. jRoebuek.] You know nothing, you- say, m causes which may appear rather remote. I believe there is a con- stant de|missing moral influence, which is caused by association with clasttes in a superior condition of comfort to themselves ; then they become reckless and improvident ; they barter what is necessary to their own subsistence, or to that of their wives and children, which is equally important, fur finery, things which jffc of no real good to them ; their good fura, which they had better wear them- selves, they trade away for beads, and they go half clothed, and they contract pulmonary complaints, and their children are born with weakened constitutions, and tiieir families ai-e diminished in number ; the result is, that it is hard to ifind an Indian family of more than three or four children. I remember an instance of one man who, 1 think, bad nine children, who was quite a pheno- menon of paternity. 339- But surely your last answer applies to those cases in which the Indian .'I'.^'has been brought into contact with the European ? — They are all brought into >> contact with the Europeans by constantly truding with them and depending : • upon the European trade for their means of subsistence. 340. Is that answer correct as atfects the whole of the great district to which -. ;i I have referred ? — With the exception of a very small district to the north, on >: "what are called the barren grounds, where there are bands of Chipewyan Indians subsisting on the iiesh of the reindeer, and where the skin of the reindeer is .:^r* 'i^^^ ■W^ :w;r:- '-'M^^f^'i'^^-^ ^m ^■■' ''W .sj-.^. ..jp4^Mf,hi K]'.; 5* ^.' : their w- .1 'K ■■■ ^f^-f '*i: 'm t.(, :\ks sBLEcr oomnmmm Tmnmm^B bavhoohpany. >5 -Misemble in wlioria^y oome to sdiigr fiiitiffof ^tn^ bec^iurth^ ooqiMrSf^ Tfttflil'trniilii 34i;.~Dp aU tlpe tribes betwetsn Canada and tjhe Paci% o<; Hr. Qum^.'j With referenqe to tlie i^Nror between the Lake of the 'Vyovds and thf Uamy Lake, doM the wrm aj^ tl^it part foirm tiii,e boun^sijf be^^eh the Umted States territory apd the Vxkiah ttrniogy f-^t ttdiUc it dostf.t the b|0undi»ry stuts at the parallel of forty->nibs degrees, I think, i^ this nq^it^ ward of that river. . . 343. Then one bank of the river is American and thp other bank BiltisH l->-^ Yes. 344 Is there anymarki^ diflemice as tp tiie degree of settlement qn the two banks i — There is none on either. r.a ^345., Although both are suffioiently fertile to allow of some settlipmeot tl^re ? — I think there might be some settlement thiere. ^ 346. Mr. Bell.] Are you aware of any settlement in the Hudson's Bay tori* tory besides the Red RiT«r where any attempt has been made to cinlize ^» Incuan(f7--Such w attempt was miide neai; Npi^way House, at the hea4 of I^ Winnipeg, where, thwe was a vills^ (d Cree Indians in a tolerable si^te pf civilization when I visited it. 347. Do yott think they were diminishing or increasing ?— -The eicperiment had been so recently tried that I think it was impossible to siqr. 348. lliat is the only case you know of? — ^ThiM: is theonly gboo I knowt of , . .. an attempt to collect t^ Indians and to settle them in a village. Since t^t ■ L timeasmallsettlementhasbee^formed at the Pas, attlfe Basquiau Riv^. It was occasioned by the bequest of a private benevolent person, who left a suii^ of mon^to be laid out for that purpose, and it has been so done. , 349. lou have visited most of the establishments of the Hudson's Bay Cttsp^ pany?— Yes.. ■ ,; ..,■.. ?■ ' 350. And that is the only instance ?'- That is th^ only OQe tlti^t .1 can thii^ of at this moment. . • , •■ 351. Mr. Moebuck.'] Speaking generally, have not all attempts to dvilizQ; the Indians, in Norti) Ame;rica failed r-^lliey die out in the process ; some progress h^Svl^n made. ' . r •■'y.. Vx'-:-' ■■ •' - 35^. They disappear? — Yes. •'.:,;. / 353- Mr. Adderl^.} lou stated the population of the Red River Settlement .,at 6.Q0Q^r-Yes. . , ..v,^ ;.. , :.y I 354. What time were you speaking of? — Of 1843 and 1844. ; ' - ..^ ^', 355t Do you know at all what the pcmulation nqw is ?— I do not. 356. In your ojiinion, how have tlM) Company generally treated the tndiaits? T<-lt is necessary, in answering that question, to draw a distinction between the C!ompaoy iu its corporate capacity as a body of non-resident shareholders, and the fJoinpany ap a body of resident traders, its servants. The traders, almost witlfoQt c^cception, as for as my observation; went, treated the Indians with ^^gR^^l kijulQe^ and humanity. Many instances of their relieving them in diieir dJStl^, and taking great pains to do so, came to my knowledge. But then their m^ans of doing so are in some degree contingent upon the financial {j^[?angement8 of the Company at large, over which they have no control, or .but little. 357. Drawing that distinction, what do vou think is the effect upon the. Indians of such arrangements made by the absentee proprietors ?— •! think thfti Indians sometimes suffer, because I think that the supplies of goods sent by the Company are sometimes inadequate. The traders can only do the best "• - with the goods which they have i they have nothing to do with what are sent in. . t,i|r. , 358. Is the want of supplies the only arrangement which you think defeo*''' tlve ? — ^The principal one. 359. CAatrmon. J What is the general character of the agents of the Hud- .. son's Bay Company ; as far as you could observe, were they respectable men?! ' t —Very generally so ; I never mingled with a body of men whose general quoUtieB seemed to me more entitled to respect. They are men of simple 0.35. D primitive ;*v^)U'.' ae mmrrm mwmmsamrAKEHmrmu^^rm V'l. .«.; I' ■! 1 V'; ■''■ ■ J' ft-Mfim^*^ - aaiiig>iiheir diitf fJriihfiiBy^ to tfaete :^g||^|^^^g||^ j(|ggj^.|i,^>f),j^ ^^1^0^ ifrWveiy dHBMtlt MAject. 360. You thinj^upon the whole, that their conduct wu that of men %ho i^tmis/HSg ^bdafw/tfi KO&ait^btfg itf a^Mnsidetttte nuukner toward»th«Indltti8 ? '^4^'thliii: «d^'iiio8(«MiuMi%; -"'' '(f^'36i/Ml(».' 01^ Mf that thii bixfiyo exkts over this tyiRifdty Mi ditf hank ; -«an donvnitiaeattte life there also f—The buffalo wdeta over It; there are domestte oaMd^^'at «^oitt of the fottt now; a covrorttrO) W4tt liM^'dtiyirii ett'th«MMkeniie^^ tii^ hiite domestic cattle.' I was «; fettow-peBsenger with a bull in a small boat on that rlveTf 36si^i»1!h^lidi^«Xitt ill lOitt be housed; hut fadnes •xhibit extraordinary tarifdihodd theiPe ji the horses I have known to pao^the ^fh^terih th« bjtieki^i^^^ dubk^ittiilg theniiielves bf what hMhage .'lK«^($otiM^find'ti^dtf»'«hfeeiiow;> ^ •: r-^.r ■;;;-:■■ - , ■•■,.■,;.::>■..- 'f^'^^.'^rM%vl6l- = 'i^' ^^ 3^/ Aii spi^ tMnhee;'tlie etiwii W^ are the ftttfest, I believe, hnme- m&^ ii^MB iiMaitto^^A eannot speak< with mvuk author^ iipofo thai poiht, hut the annoyance of flies in summorls so great, that I knotr % fl^'tlrti iudiiUds almost to^ death, Mild they lose flesh fwry much. -^m^ Ciitw -...■.:...:; ..;: ■-'• -i ■' ;'■■...;.■■■ '..'-. „ii , .:..:,.;, . ■ i ■ ; j, ■.;,......,; ;i.,f-j*4j /.Aa^ Esq., ii.i>r >'i^.^ 0iUi(ttiMii;] I Mui^^ Tety cdnversttat with the territory now ■"'-'■ lii the Mtiopatioh and maiiagebient of the Hudson^s Bif Company f-~ni{ during that thM I saw Agbod deal of ^mtiveB of ^Ift^^tiartof the countay. After that^ for the last e^^ht or 10 rears, I was ^iM^i%fMl in aMtfc seittce, and spent some shtnt tfane hi Mackenale 8 Riv^^^^ I ^fMii^ ma %intel^joarawy, passed firom Mackensie*^ the usuid route to Om^ Red Rirer, and down to St. Paul's across the frontier through the States. ' t%iOee aiW^e loi% I*v4'y««f Iffeett n altpgether; eight summers and four winters. : » / ,,;. ^''j^SV'SblbalSAg ge^ is your Ophiion of thi capacity 0^ this ■ 1< i mtt» ty'ibi*thte purposes df setflement and oritivation T'-^I have never been ifii'SAi^alMitftraiDj hut f know the diatncter of the country from others; it is /.V :: all caMhle of cultJvatUn I hetteve. The diflhndty is the same as Ccdqnel %'i ^tMb^WxMtiti^t the AfficulUr of carryfaig out the produce by HndMw's Bay, <^^ :V,v V ^\ iii0|^<|nrodiiic« from the ^katchewan to market would do away with any profits ■"'::•'': >'''' that could be derived from it. 'nf-.>om:>i>J' ■ ■ mvwr/.- "^i^'t^'r^ .m-^c %/ If S^: ^ But you beliJirve that, tti fifriitsoUfBttd cUmate Mf«fonoariiiil, there is v;K; ^1lkth& t>ari of the HttdMm's Bay territory a considerable district of country ;v|i >^ttitilble for cultivation and for settlement r— Quite so; it will be capable of J'^": ^|)rbdii>>'cft>f ,vr! i<5S'* " vVv/^* 3^0. As far as ybu can fontt a eonjecture, supposing that ooontiy was' entlrdy " open for purposes of setttement, do you think that there would be a disposition on ^^^\ j[>art o fNbigrants to go there ? — Never, until the country is settled up near tt from^ tfte Stiites, 'because, a* soon as settlers attempted to settle there the "\ fi*..^ ' ■%■ ^.::^ ..K t'r:* . -itailt.Hm.u^ jNielitm oCloe I^ «ire wvlike in l^hAt p«rt}r i; ihOldd'^ beliiwii-lli^iaiii ■* -* • ^'""^J- ^ ■ ■ " ^ never been in the SMi«lcliiii^»,-S73, Aire you (rtfll in ttoir«^^4c«f?^Noi, I left ttififarRerrifle lai^^ t'j^'.«3?4.:irotta«enow<|uiteindcfend^V<^.ti^em?'-^^^ f> ■^P^5^' What is your Q|wii«p <« the tpfam^puivuediJ^itha^ as relates to the Indian population? — ^The systev^ pwrsued isffafiiie; I^,^^^ tonmrds the Indian «» powiUe i the (^niipKnyVtarif with thftlndvpish^^ of the principal things I wish to mention ; the tariJETis formed in^Apeimdiar^y^ and Aeoessarihr so ; tfae!Sum8§^ven£9riurs>dQnot5C(»ndde i^ the y«h)e of .|^e fins traded for with them, hoeawse the musk-'iat, or the l^T4ua^JSijm» toe p«id teg at a higher ratK ; were ^t Ckunpany tQ payior thtfiper ^ fyb^jije same rate, the Mm» would hv^t i^ij^iner fors has been done all along the frontier, and we should then require to reduce tlie price for the musk-rat and the inferior fiirs, and the^Im^i^ would not hunt them at all ; the IridianB wouM nevier ndnderiitattd ourva^^^the prices of the fuss according, feo the prices here; ; the oansequ^nee would ' h)9> ,#aEitp;1|ie Indian. *0uld not be tt bit betlwr off, and he would, ViU^paU ^Hk) fym.^mm^'mi v,leBve the^musk^rat aad;.ordn«ary fitp,unjBff««te4''^ -rir 'd availableffor tiiepurposes ^ set^^iaeiit ii.^'vrhei^ l^ypiir 4^1^^ ;in thaiks^peiBt, with n^M^tathal^ ?»st dlstriioit met4mestheitaropyieMedsiM»T'37l, Ifbii think thiure wbnld be no ^^0vm^t fyt>f^^ mtdept for the purposes of fw tarading^OQly that; and th|ULth^y«^u]id reiauiM'lo have' the exolusiTe right to trade ; any oppo^it^n in^OM^f 4^^^^ « wiui anr^ro&4i or advantages from it to ft great (Jxtent, : ■ '-' nn , v 385. Do vou think tliat it would be poirible to jpioride^ by aonte arrangcaneht wiui iS^ 0adkm'» Bay Ompttay, for tlie retention of the for trade ifi. their hands in those rraions which are fit for nothing biit the for trade, and can be^": MB^ ilt ftnriihefor nUde for soaie time to cotne, and at the same time to open t^i for' th^ porpofecaof ocionizatien^ aU such parts of the country as it ia at all teai^oittb!».t0^up^tia^ iritldn the next 80 yeiirs, f^ instanoei liould be<:inttU4 •lid' eblbnfaid ?-^I Humid be rattier at a loss to gi«ean dpinim lipon that ftubj^as I hairenot studied the ehrOumstances j it woiild be vei^ difficult to ; the arrangement ; it would be an excellent one, 1 belierej if it could bb I 3861 Yod think that if it could be done it would be a desirable arrangemeati v to'lnake^-^ATeryde8hrable one indeed. : Ji ■ 31^; ^niydo you^ink that it eould not be doner— I do not Aay tint it ' oeiildnot berdciiie, Imt it would be difficult ; I could not give a reason why it should not be doTO. 1 have not rtudied the subjeet. 388. I befiere the Riissians have a fur trading establishment on the extreme nonh^west point of North Ameriea?— Yes ; it comes in contact with Mackenzie's^' l^li#', ^iedistriiBt of whicU I was in charge for one season; |^< 3819; Are ydu aware of any arrangement wUeh the Russian Company haveir SH^e with Hie Hudstm'a Bay Company, by which the most valuable portifAi of^ thM^r lurwt^ad^ territory is lei^ed to tlw Hudson'l Bay Company on eertaut^a oonditiolia ?-^lftere wis aA arraiigement of that sort some years ago ; [ cannolt f^ in Krbethesr it fm itlB in forccf ; it waft a lease not of the wfade, but of ihie strip! ofnifdr whicli you wfll see in the darts rumhhig along' the skere. i^^ thi foil know what were the nttitives of the Russian Company for. ociuqigtotluttarrangenientr^ donot* 1 39f. Mif. Chariot jFifzwidMrn.} You' say that you were in charge of the Strict !a6e m' the district; bariey is grown at all the posts except three» Fort Nbrhian. Feel's River, and Fort Qoodhope, which are far down the river. 393^ lAt. Addertq^.] In what yeu were you on Mackenzie's River? — In 1849-60. Sgf^. Have ybu been ali beg intervab of time on the same spot ^I have be^ four yeara there at different times ; I Was two years wintered there in the expedition) but I was only one year in charge of the district. 394. Did you see anything of the Red River settlement at long intervals, of time f — No ; I was oidy there part of a wioter on two occasiuns, and once in spring, 3Qi(: You cannot speak to any alteration of climate in spots which have been set^fed^— No, I cannot ; but I can say with regard to the tract of country of whidh we are gj^eaking, namely, the woody country, that there is an influence agttinst its being affected by clearance, which does not exist in other parts of the world. There is the lai^e Hudson's Bay opening up to the north, where there' is a continual flow of ice during the whole summer ; it is frozen up seven ^ ei^ht months in the winter, and' in the summer season there is a constant influ:;c df ice which keeps theoUmate colder than it otherwise would be for per- haps 100 or 300 miles inlimd inall directions ; that is an influence which does dot exist elsewhere, and which would affect the climate, I think. 396. Mr. Chttrlei FitgwiHiam] While you were at Mackenzie's River, you, I dare -rsj"; SELECT <391fMnVBB ON THE HUmK>N»B&T^^^ 99 •^nbi■«xits^ WM ■%^e; d«l»;«Mf,:T|Ultel fiiwlDiVor Bofoff blaadf-- I viUM WoUMtOn akkHQsloria /. ju«b BH^ m-0^ Zitodfl^ 1 BuiTl^ed all the souihem coasto thete. $97. ¥(m nran'not on Baniip' Uand I^Noi I wm buM 10 fiar hwih. 398. Then you cannot tqpeak to the hatural produotioni of that buid ?--No ) thwe is nodiiag to be found on the neighbouring land*, the WoUaaton and l^ct6|jb.il,«ndi^ excqit'lfineatone ; a Uttte trablud sakdiAata rock are seen. 399. I thou^t that eoal waa to be found on Babka* Island l-^Hiejr have found thai thei^but On theland that I wasorer th^re is no i^niptoniof coal; th«j ^ whole coast is bare limeatonel i ' 406. Is it « 6oal or an ignite r-^I aib not qUite sfxre, I have seen none ,c^. the specimens. I think it is a coal ; there are no great quantities of it foifaodl 401. Are aninuds found on itf^— Yes ; rein dieer and musk oxt . > > ^ v 403. Does the musk ox require a very cold diitaate ?— Oeneralfy ; it Is sdtdom seen south of the Arctic Circle. 403. Mt.Xoioe.] TouheardCofondLefiroyezsresssomedoubt whether the CompSny did all they e6uld for the Indianitf in thiB matter of goods.being seqcl, Out ; wh^t do yon thkik oh that sidiject } — I have never met witti that liiywl ^ 404. What do you undetotaad hy it ?-~What Colonel Lefiroy, I tlunk, Uhided to, was the defidenoy of ammunition for a year or two at the Athabalfea amd 1^ ^ : Madcenzie Riveis. ■= ' '^M 405. Aihniunition to be supplied to t^e Indians ? — Yes ; I have h^iird k dH^ I '^'f ferent reason fw that, from thiat given by Colond Lefroy. The gentleman in cha^ of those distj^iets appeared to be very dose and anxious to make a very large trafficat a very littlJe expense t and goods were actually forced upon Uni from ^e dep6t at York Fadtory ; I have authority for saying so; and mtrnt goods were actually sent up than the gentleman asked on his r^uisition. ,^ 406. Was that the only defect ? — That was the principal one. - ,; ? 407. Do you think that it would be a good plan if the Company were to ftttt^ nish goods in great abundance, and with great fodlity t» the Indians ?-^Clearly, and t£ey do so generally^ itis tlieir object both to dcythe the IndiaBs well and to give them plenty of ammunition, because the better they are fod, and the bett^ tiiey are dothed, the better they will huat. ' 408. Do you give them those things, or do they trade for them ? — They get them in advance ; they get their goods all npmi credit ; not to keep them under subjection to the Company ; but the IndiMi is so improvident that if he were paid in the spring he would waste eveiything before winter. Several attempts nate been made to do it, and their debts have been cancelled to them ; but it tjould never be done except at two or three of the forts, where we gave them employmlent in the summer, when they sometimes earned frool 13 /. to 26 /. worth of goods in a season. 4(i9. Mr. Outrles Fitzmttiami.] Does that mean 25 1, worih of gbods.at the price of ^he country, or iu the. market in l.ondon ? — At fil^ per cent, pn the prime cost here, which we put on for charges of freight^ loss, damage, iand loss of interest. Let me add, to show that this per-centa§^ is not Exorbitant, that our servants buy goods, and take them up from the Bay to the United States, at St Mary's, and sdl their clothes to the Americans, a profit being thus ntade. ;, 410. Lord Stanleif.] You say that 60 per cent, upon the prime coat in England is the rent-charge to liie Indians ?— That is the tariff to the servants ; and in supplying the IlicUBms at that price the Indians can gain by their labour i&t that ratE, goods to the value of 12 /. to 25 /. in the summer season. 411. Are thfe prices of gOods sold to the Indians uniform throughout the clistri^t, df ib there any increase consequent upon the greater distaUce in the cue, for instance, of forts upon the Mackenzie ? — The tariff is increased theire ; it ib higher : but to show that it is not exorbitant, compared with other traders, we sell our goods at Mackenzie's River, at Fort Simpson, upwards of 100 per Cent cheaper than they are sold in the Russian settlements over in the RussiSti^ territory, and the Hudson's Bay Company's goods have much further to go. f, 41a. Do yuu know whether the Russian Company has any monopdy aif: not^— It is a government thing ; of course it is a monopdv. ' 413. Theii you are merely comparing one monopoly with another monopoly? ^Yes ; lit Fort iSimpson we hove no opposition, and we sell the goods at that rate. ■1 ; <>'^5. "-''.'p*- is'-^eammuu. 'p^: ]j"^. 3';'fiW_ i;g!^'<-^;}5t'«ji?^";^|'^fl^:t ;^:f^'^' la ,:\ ■'.. ,-*'^ ^itiM '!&<';>.;<^<.''.r'^,„' '.■»5- ',,1',, ■-') >',;.. '•^rvSv'.-r ■ ■ ' ■'■' ■"" '■ Cudb wd ti» IMited SiMes 1kMr»^lwi ben • good d«ld «l ttoiMs^wMlk «t ^I MTNir knew anytlifa% of that ^Idndk but IthiKk tt« badflu to ImQrUp tteir fan at «nrtlme, if thef are edknttted into thMiMhrieg and make a UttlanKmcfjr.tl^iiM it against the company aftti- waida; thejKiiiMmentfy bate done ao. n ) ' fi 7. Sfi*. Bc/A j^Do ybtt thmk that thfe settlemeal of the Indiana is idvan- tageous or disadnttAgeoai^to tiieS for trader^^I shaald think it is not dtedtan- taceal«vb«iB«iM^tf "Wibtnr is die tiase at itfaioh th^ hunt; oonse^alnitlflhey caneBudoythe whde summer season to cultirate tiie gfoun^ wtdH^iroald mOis^^Mhismt-vS; l believeliMidr the settknMM of Ind&nvat NanMy House faiM(«il^wi< servloe he will not settle down, generally ; there are many.e^di)^!!^; I eannot speak of the west side.of the niountujUis ; I )^W ftt^ heirii^^'^at what >N)tt'h^^^^ '"' 4J1O. Do Tou indw w Have Iff tU -y ■■A..* :'*#i5f' m "' ! i^/'V ->: k::i:'!^.iMfiMt 'f;Si^:^:; Hk^rUil^ h|o0d JiB mrymimi «t» tfent a«i« ai» 119 |»eflb«% »«• JMhai - . ' ■--^ ■ ■.-^ «b9f9 ?-^l think: it U iiuN>rr9e|^& Muth of jhefflMliMriifwwi tlM( bd^ifes>M^ fa!)Fi^NM|»<««r' mnA fimi from Vom ^ in^ MiA I undewtenl iit tfjwrjgft kt<: acMrtt J than any otiier with wliite blood from all that I have heiM^ I canMH inminfimmkaomMgt. < '■■■-'<*.-.;.■; .i 430* HoKiur iK»A hMp yov travdkd on the MaclcMzie Ilifer^— I ,been4o«m to tfM miNith} I wentdown to thenoaOkwith Sir JoUki WdiMAiBii in 1848. . ' :t 3). !H$u Hvnyoa hem mmiwuAtia^ the coast?— Never wicatwat4< [ : 434;' You (fo not i^noir what SucSMj thore i» for ships sai^ng rouBd l# 'Utt i»(mtW.^ the.Miidcenrie:?— The fM^ having oome rowd wen those of Captain M'Ouxe and Captain ColMosDn t Hmf paseed there. ^> ^i.nw rr:43S- That ariiea from thrgrsM obatnic^isni^Yefli^ firom theio(»{ IhMoifnre the obI^ two instMraeiidicfe they nuuagedktogettikr^^ nffi 3 > ^:j><«it^U 434* Mr. JBiM^cA.} How fiur noitii have yon eirwlfm 1n^^ M ithe Orinii^ ttid Shetland. ■. • ^' :■''■<■ :■.•■: ^: ■■ , .-r) 435- GompWini the dia»te of the OrloMys nith the cttoate ftXa^ fm Hudson's Bay, where was the great differenoe ?r^The diffefenee WR% that the sttiouner was mAieh as oar sununer in Qritney ist but the printer, of oowcse, nlittded vraqr seven to^ eight^aumtbs, wfaep there was no navigatioiu< Tb» winter sets in in the bcf;inning ci November, and the loe does not get a^rav from the river befiDi!i& June. J eould not get across the nmrth river at York Factory^ on account of Ibe, b^ore the 10th or I3th of June. - ^ • .t,s 436^ Osn tiiey gprdwwIwBt in the Orkneys J-r-It ifriU ripeo« in sniaD .jpuRr titiea, but it is not generally grown ; bariey and oats are geoeraily growi|» Ui^, JK 487. ButyoncangrowwMBtat Yoric?-rrNever. '.,;*> 438. The dimate in the summer, I take it, is finer than at the 0]cki|flya?!R«i- It is milderi a little; but it is nMore irregular becamse^ we hi^ve frostSi o^^jpg. to theice being itt the Bay dose off Yorii^g^oii^enti se^ ice jn tbfr ^y alipjp^rihf •whole seBBOBiround.;'^^ 'j7?.iv v.? ;.-^;,;x^M■ ;',7 ^ef>»*>xflv' ;;•■'■»■> -j^^ a^":-.':. -i:'4*o ly. 439. Going further south, have you ever been to Lake Winiipegl'TrffiKlhl havie passed Otrough it several tinjril^.:. .?.'i'440; Haveyottbeen in that part of the country through tb*twdve 1901^? 441. Yon do not know whett ibe. winter h^fins^ tp tii^ soutjb ^.Jimkt.y^ia- n^iegf— The winter begbs about November, that ia tomy, the ice; be^ b shut up the navigation Inr tb»end of 0«t<^beKj»it]^ ##Bc;i«f^ lail^Ppi!^ .'impassable about the end of -Qctoberi:' 3. ■■,(■;• j" ^ifv,\/j,jiy i,.,vv,./ -^ if£i\ r'-aiiB^ »\' ii 442. M'oen does the winter end there ?->You can get throttghldike WUiato^ ' aiometib^ about the Ist of June ; ;at oiher tinies you mm bfa ^tonpfsd by uie 1^ t» (iie ndddle of June 1 when I went tbr^NgJb^ iritb Sir Jobn )ElJHdifir4Ye8, to St. FaulV • '446, At wlmt time of the year «ms thafr?T-*ln thft wintctr. 447. So that you 4xnild not very wdlr iju^g?^^ ,#^.;^^ Klinesota and the country round Lake WinnipiegJr^No, Ijcouidl not idl j^oriuier than that it is a perfectly level tract between! ,Redi River an4 . BllfMfiota^ j^l^ •re'iMt hlUs or> difficulties in the Way of tratelling. -, 5-, ) ,ir:fnisiitr-l ^>eafc of ;the(,SadEatcheiRan4ponkjhMRH|^^^^ ■km^\ed^.'..y>-rh'<-Vauidtfl}ur:i ^AUm! .^^j-^v/i -^{>:md4i«.C ma--^'^ ^.ff----^ fia^^juf 450. Round about Lake Winnipeg is it fit for agriculture T—It is Aj9|Hrj|Kiit sandy place, foil of marshes along the niw^- shoveuof JUke Wi(i|^ip^; we sometimes had to go many miles befocsr we eoidd get ground to niake w encampment on ; sometimes we bad to traireL l^,,(h9y,j|^t;:bfi|ii|r!^ we coiijd make an. enoampnunit. . ..'■ ......ns.- r..) ■ ^w^v^n' ••■•-' '..wp •'•^i«.1l^s>v">::.-x:.p;.,., :.-^: ' . A ^.: . , ■- ' ,-.Jh#Mft, ''.- - V '"r;'^ V . '^ .■ 45»- Was Lake Winnipeg ?A -m "S^^ %. ■.Vt '% #. - "'i'-'-.-t-' ■■m 99 mmUTES OF SVIBENCE TAXSI» BSfORS THS ' 451* WwtlMtdanny tlw winter ^-^Nd, ifit tk0 sinmd«tt^ 45a: ItMf ^ Imu^ traviUed ii» that, poitioa of the woiddin tlw, mmm as-IWipwry ttt7. bwt not ihioii|^ Minaiato l^No. 453^ Wore jroa flrer jlrthe Bed BiTer S«ttlemait dpriiig themiamffif-T'f^. a Bhort time in ^ mring. 454. What sort of land ia it about there ?— Very exoi^nt gownd i iieb» good 4dt5> Wli«n 7 Which runs into the MiaeissiDpi ? — X'^f 460. Mr. Roebuck.} I believe now Minesc^ is.a t^toiy» is it not(?t-Xie9«.:$ :^ 461. Didit become a terntoiy lately ?— In 1853 ; it was beoomipg a terii^pi^ I think either in 1851 or 1862, when I was passing through. 463. Wisconsin is a atate, it it not? — Y(;s. 4$3. Is Wisconsin ptepled: thovoughly, or is a large portion of it.siill wil4?-- A very large portion { at least the por^on that I, travelled tiifough wa?, wilicL f>i> 4^. Whilst Wisconshi remained wild, Minesota was b^un? — ^Sf inesota, up north as for as St. £teul's, seems to be pretty well settled ; tlial, ia to say, tliere arg. DOW houses ; but b^ond that, betweeq that and Red Mivei^^ t^Mre seeded to be from 800. to 400 miles, by the route I took about 450 miles, ^ot/ set^ledt 465. While very large portions of Wiscraian remained uninhahlted, a pprtl^n of ue terptraty of A&iesota became peopled? — I caimot give ypu reasons, because I merely speak of the route that I passed through. 14^ Did you pass through Wisconsin ?— I passed through, a very smal^ por- tion of it. 467> Waa that part of Wisconnn tbKHigh which you passed unci^tivated; was , thraie a large portion of the territoiy unceded ? — There wa? a large pb]:t|qn which seemMUscarcely settled ; there were s«Wrmills, a^dtthingsof.thait Kup4^^. 468. At that very time there were people in Mine^o^ ?— ¥e|». ^ 469. So that Minescta began to be peopled before WisconM^ was full of inlud>itants ?— Clearly because they follow^ the route of the rlyer. 'i°hey col^ get stetoHboats completely up to Minesota, up to St. Paul's^ llie stea^i- boaltB came all the way up the Misassippi with one small break. . ^V^ 470. 60 that we may conclude that people would go to a new territory ^ there were inducements to go there, though Gmada diould still retain lands ^r; unodtivated, unsettled, unc«led? — Yes, it there were ind^i^tnents sufficient; ' but the Americans have not had inducements yet to push up beyond, except at St. Peter's River. •' i^ji-'^:- xy: -i:.,-^.:msr 471. Going to a diflierent subject; you spoke of the tariff, established by the Hudson's Bay Company ; do not they establish a tariff upon the goods th^y sell ^|;; , . and the goods they buy ? — Yes'; they establish there a tuiff foQ their servants. 473. 80 that if a man si>l]j you a heaver skin, and you sell him a flannel shirt, you put your own price upon the flannel shirt, and upon the bea^v^ skin ? , • —There is ti different settlement of tariff. for the Indian, and for the servant 473- Do not you put your own price upon the flannel shirt and upon, th? beaver skin ?— Yes ; 50 per eent is the price put on. i^ v ' 474. For example, we will take an item ; take a flannel shirt ; suppose it cost here half-arcrown, you say you put 60 per cent, upon that r — Yes, 475. Fif^ per cent, would be added to the half-crown when it got to York ; if Tou took it to the Mackenzie River how much would be added to it there ? — Nothing to the servant ; our tariff is higher there. '-'y^Bf- J V vv 476. I am talking of the Indian ?— I do not understand the xptestion. Our tariffs are made ; there is 60 per cent-, a fixed tariff, put on for the sein^aint 477- We ■ Un^ y.>i :W: W'-f3: ''^f'v'r^^lv '■ 'K/ * '^'>?*! .: ^y.: .*,'■ SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAT COMPANY. 33 477. We will not talk about the servaiitt— -Then this ardde is sold to the /. Jia«, Bw]., m. o. Indian; there is a certain tariff made vrithout any fixed per-centage. The articles that are useful, such as woollens, guni*, and absolute necessaries, are 33 Febnuy >867* sold to the Indian at a comparativeljr cheap rate ; there is no fixed percentage upon them. 478. 80 that in Csct there i» no tariff at all to the Indian? — I never made out the tariff, but this is the way in which we did it Supposing there was a- valuable skin, we could not pay ^e Indian for that in the same proportion as i.i value. . 479. I am not asking that question ; I am asking you whether you do not put your own price upon the goods you sell to the Indian, without ngoxA to any tariff whatever r-^£xactly so, but there is a fixed price that the Indian perfiectly understands { there is no regular percentage put on. f . 480. You lived s(Hnetame at York ? — ^At Moose, in James's Bay. \-^\ 481. Do you know what the tariff was there to the Indian? — Yes ; as far at^ I remember, it was from 2 s. 6 d. to 3 ». for what we called a made beaver. 482. What was the tariff upon goods taken from England and sold to the' Indian there r — I do not know that i I did not make out the tariff. 483. Were you there 10 years without ever learning that fact r — Yes ; it is difficult to learn. 484. Why difficult to learn r — Because I find that they have no fixed tariff made out upon the plan you have spoken of, wherever it is. There is no fixed per-centage put on the goods anywhere, whorever we have traded with them, or wherever any person else has traded with them. 485. Mr. Lowe,] Do you ask the Indians different prices for goods at differ- ent times? — Never ; we cannot vary the price. 486. A beaver skin vrill always command the same amount of European goods ? — At the same place. 487. Mr. Roebuck.'] Are there not varieties of beaver skins ? — Yes; but the beaver skin is the standard ; a large beaver making one skin. 488. Do you give the same price for every beaver skin? — Certainly not; two small ones go for a large beaver; two martens go for a large beaver. 489. Who determines whether it is a small or a large beaver ? — ^The Indians themselves determine it ; they know it perfectly well, and so does any man who is acquainted with it; any man who looks fit it can tell the age of a beaver. 490. Lord Stanley.] When you say that a beaver skin commands a fixed price, you mean, of course, a skin of the average size ? — A skin of the average size ; a good kige skin killed in winter or in spring. 491. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.'] When you talk of a thing costing so many beavers, you mean that they may give a beaver skin and five or six racoon skins, or marten skins, in the same way that in the buffalo country they talk of a thing being worth so many robes ? — Yes. 492. If you bought a horse from an Indian you would give him so many beavers for it ? — Yes. 493. If you sold a gun, you would say, "I will take so many beavers for it ?"— Yes ; it is a thing perfectly understood by the Indian. 494. The beavers being the current coin of the country ? — ^Yes ; the same as the current coin of this country. The Indian understands it, and no one will do anything until he gets up to the standard price. 495. Mr. lioebuck.] If a man came with ten beaver skins to the factory at Moose River, you say that he would know what price was to be put upon those beaver skins ; but would he know the price to be put upon the European goods ? — He does not know anything about the price of the European goods to him. He knows exactly the articles that he wants ; he knows how many skins he has got, and he knows what he can get for them. 496. Who determines how much he can get? — It was determined long before I entered the service. 497. It never varies?— It never varies much,; it W88 increased ^ome years ago in ft»rour of the Indian. frrt.j ■ / '^j*. .r^ff; yr-i,^^ 498. So that, as goods in England become cheaper, thejr do not become cheaper in Hudson's Bay ?— No ; and if the furs sell cheaper we do not give less for them to the Indian. 0.25. E ■ 499- So ^ .'■•iP.: /«^:?;'':,«;¥- 520. •^;i^|pfi4(^^ '^in: /-y- given ;■•€ -*' .Vl'^?K;T if-'j- SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 35 (vo and a half given for the beRver in the couutiy depend upqn what the beaver sells for in ^'. London ? — Of course, entirely. 331. Do vou remember the price of beaver a pound some 20 years ago in *9 London? — I do not. 52 a. Was it 90 1. ?— About 30<. or 33 4- 533. Do you remember what it was selling for about three years ago? — Seven shillings or eight shillings a pound. 534. It is now, 1 believe, about 13 «.? — Yes. 535. Mr. Percy Herbert.'] What is the weight of an average beaver ? — About ft pound ; 3ome of the large ones are a pound and a quarter. 536. Mr. Grogm.'] Am I to understand you to say, that in fact the whole traide there is one of traffic ? — ^Yes. 527. And that the beaver is the unit of computation in the purchase and sale of amr article ?— Yes ; it is the currency understood by the Indian. 528. I think you stated that latterly the tariff for that barter had been aug- mented by the Company ill favour of the Indian ? — Yes. 529. lliat is, that they allow a larger quantity of European goods for the beavers than they formerly did? — Yes ; there was a modification of the tariff In favour of the Indians some year* ago ; I foi^et the season. 'W ;'; > ^i' • 530. How do you reconcile that with the fapt which we have jusif Ueiord, that the value of be&ver has fallen from 30 «. to 7*. or 8 s., or 13«. ? — I do not know the reason for making this modification. *^\ j f>'^;M? 531. Have you any impression on your mind that the Company' arelcanrying on an unfortunate trade r— 'No, I think not. 532. How does it arise that the Company are able, notwithstanding the great reduction in the value of beaver, to give a larger quantity of European goods to the Indiui and still have a lai^ profit r — It arose, I fancy, from the iact that European goods got cheaper ; that is the only way that I can account for it ; I was ordered to make a modification at Mackenzie's River, and I would not do it, except to a small extent, because I found that things weUt on just as well ; that the Indians could clothe themselves very well if they did any work. 533. Are the goods furnished to the servants of the Company and to the Indians the same in quality r — Exactly the same. 534. Are the Indians aware that they pay a higher rate for them than the ' Company's servants are charged? — They do not seem to be aware of it; they are not told th?t they pay a higher value, but they are quite satisfied with their treatment generally, and the Indian can clothe himself and get all his requisites if he likes to work. 535* Mr. BellJ] Has the same reduction t^ken place with regard to other furs besides the beaver ; the silver fox, for instance ; is that selling at a pro- portionately lower price now to the beaver? — No, I believe not. 536. Is it higher ? — It is about the same that it always has been ; they vary considerably ; some kinds of fur go out of fashion, and others come in. 537. Has the general average price of furs in this country fallen within the last 20 years, cir risen ?— Some have varied. I do not think the average price on the whole has altered ; but beavers have fallen very much, and they were the principal returns of the country at that timfe. ''^I^S^j'ti'^^^'^' 538. And soine have risen ? — Yes ; I believe a few have ri&^'. ' »<^ '^•*' ' 539. Mr. Roebuck.'] I suppose, during your residence at Moose Factory, you saw the trading with the Indians ?— 1 saw it ; I was not a trader, but I saw the mode of trading, 540. I will read you a description ^ven of that mode of trading, and will ask yuu whether it be a correct one : " Thus, an Indian arriving at one of the Company's establishments with a bundle of furs, which he intends to trade, proceeds, in the first instance, to the trading room ; there the trader separates the furs into lots, and, after adding up the amount, delivers to the Indian a number of little pieces of wood, indicating the number of made-beaver to which his hunt amounts. He is next taken to the store-room, where he finds himself surrounded by bales of blankets, slop-coats, guns, knives, powder horns, flints, axes, &c. Each article has a recognised value in made-beaver. A slop- coat, for example, is 12 made-beavers, for which the Indian delivers up 12 of his pieces of wood; for a gun he gives 20; for a knife, 2 ; and so on,, until his stock of wooden cash is expended." Have you ever seen that process?— 0.25. E2 Certainly; Fi ':W-' ''>Sf:r\ .:'? .:S'v- 1=1:31 '.'&'j' ■■(-. 36 MINUTES OF £VIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. JtW, £*] , M. A. "^^f > %^^, ^. it-i"^- Certainlj ; but a coat generally costs fire or six skins. The process is true ; but the details are not true. «3 Fibmary iSfi?. 541. I will now read to you from the " Indian tariff of the territory embraced within the Royal License, situated east of the Rocky Mountains." I find that a gun, which in England cost 22«., is charged to the Indiim 20 beavers, equivalent in market value to 82 /. 10«. ; is that anything according with your experience ? — It was true many years ago, but it is not true at present. 543. Have you wonderfully reformed of late ? — No, but the price of beaver is not that ; it is 13 «. in the market at the present day. 543. Then the Indian would have to give more beavers ? — No, it would still be the same ; and the gun might rise to 30 s. or 40 ». 544. In marten skins he gives for the same eun, costing 22 «., 60 skins, and their Talue is 46 /. 10 «. ?— I never saw more than two martens go to a beaver since I have been in the service. 545. He gives five silver fox skins for the same gun, and their market value is 60 /. f—Yes, it is true. 545* Do they descend to musk-rats, which form half the stock ? — At some places. 546. They do not say an3rt ing about miuk-rats ?— No ; that is just the A -^ ^- -T' thing; there is little or no gain upon them. Let me give my side of the '^St^-'i '"'■ ' tariff: ten rats go to a beaver ; for a gun it would be 200 rats, and the price in tiie market, some years ago, was 3d. or 4 d. a. skin. ^ ■ 547. Mr. Grogan.'] How many beavers go to a gun ?— Twenty by that* l^v ;> account, and that is the Mackenzie Hiver tuiff ; that is the very highest tariff that we have to the Indians. If you are paid for that gun in rats you have scarcely the profit that a London merchant would take, even in the City, instead of going to the Saskatchawan, and those musk rats form one half of the bulk of rthe returns of the southern department, and a great portion of the northern. ' 548. Mr. Roebuck.] Can you state the difference between silver foxes and tj^i '"'beaver skins ; how many beaver skins go w> one silver fox ? — Four or five. ..• 549' Then they give five silver foxes for this same gun ?— Yes, in Mackenzie, ><, River, but about half the amount elsewhere. fi i: V 550. And that is equivalent, it is stated, to 50 /. r — Yes. v^-c4 551* ^1^^^ is the mode of trading with the Indians ?— That is the mode on "^'the one side ; you must take both sides. Hiere is a loss, at least not a gain, in trading with the inferior furs. Were we to pav according to the value of the skins the Indian would hunt up and destroy all the valuable fur-bearing }?^animals, and would not catch a musk rat or the inferior skins at all. k::^ 55 2' When you trade in musk rats in order that the Indians should catch i^usk rats in place of catching beavers, you give more for the musk rat in I proportion than for the beaver ? — The more inferior the skin, the higher the "?price which is given in proportion. ;?' 553* Supposing an Indian comes with musk rats to buy a gun, how many 'musk rats will he give for this gun?— About 200 in Mackenzie River, and a #fittle more than half elsewhere. 1 ' 554- And how much is each musk rat worth? — ^They have got up this last "^year, they were from 3d. to 4 d. for several years. ' .''>55- What are they now ? — I forget, but they have increased this last season. 556. Are they 6 . Mr. wr ■;:vt^ 'rSfjt' k ^'\ - '■:' vo is do th tei of ..-■.-.' th m( ca ha •' A""/''4 th %->:^if all de Tl ev '''-''■\ ■- -.V"*^'-'-; • .' ..' )t be w vSIf UI ; Vif r.;<5 Y ' ' ■' 2 di •■&-■' •; SI ' 17 .- •'■■ ti - -^ -^ w to ■; al w; vS '"■I' i'-ii'--?'^ ' '^f>iki'.^j^:' \-.^ --^if.-. SELECT COMMnTEE ON TIffi HtlDSOITS BAY COMPANY. 37 ^'y.^„>f .^i:"-^ -.♦; % 'Ptk.' i^ -l^- ^■hii ;v 1 ;f . • 561. Mr. Edward Eilice.'] You were at Moom for a considerable time, and J. Bu, Etq., m. d. were through the Indian territory ; what dispoaition have you generally, nbcerred ■ in the Indians towards the traders r — ^They are most fiiraidly, as for as I have ^3 February 1857. erer seen them. 562. When Indians came to the fort that you were at, in distress or in a state of destitution, did the servants of the Company relieve them? — ^Tliey were always relieved both in food and dothing if^ requisite, and in medicines if necessary, for those who were sick, and that was done gratuitously ; they got the clothing gratuitously ; if they could not pay for it, it remained a debt. If it was an old penton that could not hunt h« got the clothes gratuitously, and some food also. 563. At your station were sinrits ever barteved for the furs ? — Never. Where I was, there was a dram occasionally given to a good hunter when he came in^ one on coming and one on going, but spirits were never bartered for fiira. 564. Was it an uncommon tilling t'^ see an Indian in the territory in a state of intoxication r — ^Very uncommon i< late years in the Company's territ^iries. 565. Are you aware that spirits are given in small gratuities at certain times of the year ? — They are given in the summer when Indians are employed to voyage ; they are given because it is an old custom with the men, much as it is with sailors or anybody else, to give them a little spirits when they come down to the depdt, and the Indians so employed get the same quantity. But the Company, wherever I have been, have o£Fered them other articles, tobacco, tea, and sugar to two or three times the value, if they would take them, instead of the spirits. 566. Mr. Roebuck.l The spirits were for payment in that case, then ? — No, the spirits were given as a gratuity. What they call the regale given to the men when they come down. .567. Mr. Edward Eilice.] The supply of spirits was limited to what was called the regale ? — ^Where I was, and in many cases, we had no spirits ; we have no spirits in the Athabasca or in La Crosse or on the Mackenzie River, for ' the men, officers, or Indians ; the persons in charge had no spirits or vrine allowed them. 568. In trading with the Indians, did you find them tolerably quick in their dealings with you, or were they credulous and to be imposed upon easily '( — They understood the value of every skin they had, and they had in their mind everything that they wanted. Afr(&6g. Were they shrewd in their dealings ? — Perfectly shrewd. ^,|,r ^irf>j!^ ^trrv 570. They knew their rights? — Perfectly so. 571. '1 hey were aware that with this tariff, which was established for the barter, the servants of the Company could not interfere ; that it was a fixed thing with them r — They knew it thoroughly. 573. Mr. Gordon.] But I think you said that you thought the Indians were unaware of the much higher per-centage that they were paying for articles ? — Yes ; they did not understand anvthing about the per-centages. 573. Mr. Edward Eilice.] Is there any district in the country besides the district you were first speaking of, the Saskatchawan, where you think a self- supporting colony could exist? — Not in the present state of the country ; not till it is settled up to that point, and then it might, but it would take a long while. 574. To what part of the country do you allude besides the Saskatchawan ; to the thick wood districts r — ^The only part that I should fancy, would be up about the Rainy Lake. 575. The Rainy Lake is between Lake Superior and the Red River ? — Yes. 576. In what part of the thick wood districts, north of Lake Winnipeg, do you think a selt-supporting colony could exist? — Nowhere, according to my experience. 577. I believe you have travelled in the country between the northern sh(Hre of Lake Superior and the Red River ? — Yes, in winter. 578. What sort of a district is it, keeping; on British territory, between the Red River and Lake Superior f — From the Red River to Lake Superior, by the route that I came to Fort William, towards the west end of Lake Superior, is not a difficult country to travel over, because we in the winter followed the lakes and rivers ; but on coming to Lake Superior, the hills on the north shore there run north and south, consequently there is a continuous series of ridges :\,y.23,,, ,. , E3 having M •f .■.* ■i'-? • J. I* h -■J&-- ■ ^5" .iS*:c 38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE /. Ha*, Etq., h. o. having deep ravines between them, where the streams running out to Lake — Superior pass throi^h, and you have to go about 100 miles to the north of the 83 February 1857. place before you can travel well. I went to the north about 100 miles, and found tbe country there difficult to travel over ; we were obliged to leave our dogs, and cartjr oar elothes and provisions on our backs. ^ ' ' « * 579- That is on !th« northern shore of Lake Superior ? — Yes. .'^'ijji>:'''''^ 580, Was there lliere any temptation tu a colonist to settle? — It was the i;'»'v<^y winter timej and I saw no country that would do for settlement ; there were a great many swamps^- I passed along the head waters from Nipeg»6 >^ winter, is it not ? — Quite so, to a great extent. ^^^' ''-'•' 584. There has been a good deal said about a railway coming from Canada to the Red River, and so on; from what you saw of the character of the country, are the physical difficulties very great against carrying out that railway ? — I should think they would be immense ; not insurmountable, but immensely expensive, particularly on that line tjong the north of Lake Superior. 585. Did you hear Colonel Lefroy's evidence ?— Yes. . 586. He describes that as a line which engineers had drawn in the air, ^f course imagining tiiat science and art can overcome all the physical difficiilti«3i I suppose you agree in that evidence? — Perfectly; as far as the practical results go, it could never pay anything in the present state of the country. 587. Supposing that a British colony was founded, and that the Government of Canada was to be extended to the Red River, and no railway was to be made, how could communication be kept up between the seat of government in Canada and the colony of the Ked Hiver in winter? — There is no regular communication without going through the States; there could be no r^ular and quick communication. 588. If any one now wanted to go, say from Toronto to the Red River, in winter, how would he go ? — Through the States, by railway as far as it went, and he would then cross over the prairie country, which is unsettled, with horses or dogs. 589. Mr. Kinnaird.] Was the 400 miles that you travelled to St. PauFs with horses? — Dogs; horses could not trav*;!; the snow was too deep; it was in February or March. :;. 590. Could you have done it with horses in the summer? — ^Yes, it is practicable in summer both with horses and with waggons ; light waggons go regularly across the prairie plains. * % 591* Mr. Edward Ellice.] Do you know the Nipissing at the head of the — =^tawar— I have never been there, but I know where it is. 592. Taking that to be the end of the railway concession, how far is it in a straight line from the Red River? — It is difficult to say, but I think it is some- ,, i.!Where about from 1,000 to 1,200 miles; it is on the charts. r," , , 593. I understand you to say that you have been through the district ex- '^^■'■- tending from there, and are able personally to speak to the sort of countnr "t which it is? — I have traversed t^at country once, and I have passed through _ Lake Superior several times by water ; the whole of the shores of Lake Supe- ■ |,rt|fior are perfectly impracticable ; there is a little cultivable ground at the mouth ' " /Of each river, but otherwise it is an immense rocky tract. •, 594, Mr. lioebuck,] Supposing you were going from Lake Erie up to Lake Superior, could not you go in a steamer up Lake Erie, and from Lake Erie into I^ke Huron, and from Lake Huron into Lake Superior ? — Yes, in summer. &" , "i "Hit. ' '■ ¥f::f'. '/.■'■4^;i ',':.'. m •m- '■.■;fi ;•., ..M*; W<^ /'ff ; ;'-i"y _!■ 1". 11' '■'• ■■:- ' ■ * - -\4 Hf. 595 .-: ■<• iif¥f :^'i 7857. will be a regular communication from the Atlantic Ocean to the head of Lake v;. v' Superior? — Yes. ip^^ 597. You say that the road is impracticable during winter ? — Yes. ' ' ' ' hY^' 'rfJ^is 598. If the country were peopled, woidd not the people make a road in for the sleighs r— Not along the north shore of Lake Superior. 599. Would they not travel over the ice ? —The lake is so bad that the ice gets detached from the rocks ; it does not remain fast, and our expresses sel- dom or never attempt to go Ihere. The wind comes on, and the waves from the lake break up the ice ; and several of the expresses have been nearly lost. , ' 600. Sir John Pakington.] Which line do they take in winter?— They go further to the north by Lake Nipigon, and a place callod Long Lake, 100 or 120 miles in from Lake Superior. >" ' 601. Mr. Rvtbuck.] So that if the country were peopled at Lake Nipigon; there would be a regtilar communication by sleighs ? — I cannot say ; the route that I passed by is impracticable to sleighs. 602. Are you at all aware of the richness of the northern shore of Lake Superior in metal r — I have understood that there are mines; at least that there is copper ore there. 603. Is that no attraction, do you think ?— I understood that the geologists, who visited them, said that they would scarcely pay for working them ; they are not equal to the mines on the south shore. I have not Examined th6m myself; I only speak from hearsay on that point. 604. Therefore ^ ou cannot say whether that country has inducements to ^ttlement or not r — I can say that it has not the least inducement of having fine agricultural land to settle upon along the north shore ; it is a perfectly barrec, rocky coast, peifectly iron bound, except at the mouths of some of the little streams where there is a little alluvial deposit of land, where little patches may be cultivated ; generally speaking, it is a rocky, barren coast with ridgfes. bo5. Do you know the northern shore of Lake Huron ? — I never came along that side. ,606. Have you passed over from Lake Huron to Lake Nipissing ?— I never was there. 607. Then the questions put to you about Lake Nipissing you cannot answer r — No. I said that I could not answer them. I never passed that way. C08. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Will you describe upon the map the line of . country that you have been through, starting from Fort William ; where did you go to, going up towards Nipigon ? — I passed directly from Fort William up to Lake Nipigon ; I then struck east to a place called Long Lake, about 100 miles. 609. What sort of a country was it between Lake Nipigon and Long Lake ? 1^-1 1 vcas low and swampy. I passed through a number of little lakes and rivers, and swamps, apparently ; they were all covered up with ice at the time. Then from Long Lake I went to the Pice River, a difficult tract of country ; that is on Ijoke Superior. v v^,„, ./^ 610. What sort of a country was it between Long Lake and Pice River? — Very rough and rugged ; our dogs got knocked up ; we could scarcely use them ; we were obliged to carry our clothes on our backs. j i;?; ■>- 611. Which way did the rivers run there ?--;» Nc«rly northviMid sduth generally. ^ :/j.(-i'v,ww ?;v;,ni;.:^r..'i"'i'' 6\2. Mr. Roebuck.] Tlie Pice River falls into Lake Superior r — Yes. iu/j. 613. Mr. Edward Ellice.] And the water the other way ran to the nbrth, to Hudson's Bay ^— I did not go so far up, I wua only at the watershed at the headwaters. '■t^%'K'-'Tf:V-7:yxi:tr'^''':''> ^i'-:.---" ... ;^i«-»vwM>."«« -'>■■-• 614. Did there appettf^H^'tio Valley !tt that direction, iw no jpAr^ eligible for settlement ? — I saw nothing, excepting that the country which I weqt over was low ; it looked swampy, like most of the watersheds there. !>jf -'rt|nt, :, 616, There -.«, v: ■.1 i!.i.. .:.li.'JL:i'A\''i^-iitii. ,.jfc,'...>A.>M s^ili.}^^. ■^mm ^» • ;.,*.> ;^i •/'. ft' ;,'' v;^':': v.. ■>i^wJ^ i 40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORK THE hL- »3 Februnry 1857. if:. J. ^of, E$q.,mp- 6.16. There you came down into Lake Superior? — ^Yes. From that I came 9 to St. Mary's ; we were obliged to leave our dogs behind. 617. Sir John Pakington!] How did you get on? — We walked on foot, and , carried our baggage and provisions on the backs of men. It is one of the roughest countries I ever passed thrpugh. 618. Mr. Edward EHice.] With respect to the mines on Lake Superior, are ^ you aware of the number of them, or the available state of the work at those mines ? — I am not. 619. But a great many companies have attempted to work them ?— Several. 620. Both on the American and on the Canadian side ? — On both sides. 621. The general result has been not very profitable? — Not on the north j ride, because they have given them all up, or most of them. There are only a few of the American mines paying where they get large masses of copper. 622. I believe that the great difficulty with the copper there is irom itsV extreme purity, and the great masses that it is in, so that they cannot easily break it ?— On the south side ; but they have found nothing of that kind on } th6 north side that I am aware of. .^ 693. But all the copper is actually in large solid masses, requiring great - force to break it? — ^I have seen pieces of one or two tons, and pieces are ,, found much heavier than that. ' 624. Sir John Pakington.] What was the length of time occupied in your ^ journey from the Red River to Toronto ? — ^To St. Mary's, two months ; about . 60 days. 625. It is a journey rarely made I suppose r — Not by the same person ; there . are generally relays of men at each post ; each eight or ten days. ^ 626. The journey is made from post to post ? — Yes ; by di£ferent relays of men. 627. In that way is the journey often made during the winter months?— Only once or twice when the express comes down ; the winter express used to come that way communicating with all the posts bringing information down to ' Canada. ^ 638. What is the distance between the posts ? — Generally 100 to 200 miles ; by the route followed it is more. 629. Mr. Grogan.'] You said that the express went by Lake Nipigon and ' by Long Lake ; did the express travel that route because there were posts there? — Partly, and partly because they cannot travel along the lake on i account of the ice breaking away sometimes with a gale of wind, which renders , it Very dangerous ; the shore is sq precipitous that the ice is apt to break away ' and prevent travelling. 630. Are there no posts between Lake Nipigon and the north shore ? — No. 631. It is the only route that is practicable?— It is the only route that the Company's people go generally ; they make a rush sometimes across the Bay, ^ but they do not do so generally, it being so unsnfe. 63a. Mr. BeU."] Are there any whales in Hudson's Bay ? — I saw a few up to the north. 633. You do not know whether the Hudson's Bay abounds with them ?— No, not the southern part ; I baw a few in the northern part, towards Repulse Bay. 634. Are there any seals ? — ^There were plenty of white porpoises and many seals, and some walruses the last time I was there. 635 Do they afford a large quantity of oil r — Yes j the Esquimaux kill them. 636. There are no British fisheries? — No; none are established there. 637. They are not allowed, I suppose ?— No one ever attempted it that I am aware of. 638. Do you know whether that is part of the Hudson's Bay monopoly ?— It is part of the Hudson's Bay territory. 630. So that no ships can come into the Hudson's Strraits to fish for whales ? — I suppose so ; there are not many whales. 640. Do you suppose there would be a sufficient quantity of fish of that kind to support a settlement ? — I think not ; when I went in 1846-7 I saw a good many whales; when I went in 1853 and 1854 I saw only one or two small ones. 641. At what part of Hudson's Bay ? — Inside Southampton Island. 642. Mr. Edward Eltice.'] How long is the water so free from ice that vessels could hunt the whales ?— About two mouths ; it is very dangerous ; it is full of currents i > #■'1 ^ >, ,v% ■ ■■■'■-.:'.», ;v. ■ ■ "i^'l« ft'^J vfti.^.^'" ."'i'^.:?./' \ ■ ' k '. .P'v..',. ■ ■. Ij. t'' y •i^ji-. 8 '■ ,te &; K ^«-is.i; ■'■*^ia^^' SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 41 currents; it nearly wrecked Sir George Back's vessel, and prevented another /.Ai(,liq.^.D> Sentleroan, Captain Lyon, twice from getting up there, whose vessel got nearly estroyed; the currents are very strong and it is very dangerous ; I got on ^iVthxvnj xiii. because I had boats and got inside the ice in shoal water. 643. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.} Do you know of any coal being discovered anywhere on the shores of Hudson's Bay ? — I am not aware of any. 644. Mr. Grogan.] Along the journey which you have described to us ay.. '. having taken, were there any houses or any people ?— None, except the posts that I have mentioned. 645. The whole of the rest of the country is imoccupied and desolate?— • Quite, except by Indians. 646. Mr. Kitmaird.] From your evidence I gather that you entirely approve of the rule of the Company, in not selling spirits to the Indians i — Perfectly ; it is the best rule that was ever made. 647. Have you compared them with those who have access to spirits ?7-Ve8, i I have seen the effect ; the Indians are much easier to deal with, more attentive, and better in every way. 648. You also, I gatiier, approve of settling and attempting to civilise them ; you think that it may be done with success ? — I think it is a good thing ; if it coiild be possibly done it would be beneficial in every way ; it is not even opposed to the Cpmpany's trade, because the time when they would be employed in the settlement is not the time when they hunt. 649. The scheme has been partially successful in the Red River r — Yes, but very partially, because most of them bunt in the winter, and they do n<%, depend upon the forms. 650. Tlie settling and the civilising have never been opposed by the Companj|^ in any wny ? — Not that I am aware of. 651. Chairtnan.] Still, do you think that the constitution of the Company is such as to make it very well fitted for the management of settilements except upon a very small scale ? — ^I speak of the Indians settling down, not of others BettUng ; not of colonising, not of strangers coming in. 652. When you use the word '* settlements," you mean mere Indian villages ? •—■Indian villages and settlements ; local trading places. 653. Mr. Roebuck.] But surely a fur company is opposed to colonisation, is it not ? — I should fancy so, generally. 654. Therefore, insomuch as the Hudson's Bay Company is a capital fur Company, it is a very bad coloniser ? — I should fancy so ; it never professed to be a colonising Company. ^Xi^^ 655. Mr. Lowe.'] With regard to the half-breeds, do you consider them a material from which an agricultural popula. )n can be formed ? — I believe that the English half-breeds may be so ; they are a very excellent race generally, but careless and improvident. 656. Will they settle down and cultivate the ground ?— There will be a difficulty about it, because they generally prefer the hunting. ,1X1 657. Have they settled in any great numbers i — In the Red River to a 00% siderable extent. ^n 658. Have they given up hunting altogether ?— Not so far as I know. Th^ generally hunt as long as they are able ; they go as voyageurs in the sunuuer, and hunt in the autumn and winter. • 6.59. And they do not really cultivate the ground much ? — Many of theftt do, but the generality of them prefer the sort of wild life of hunting. 660. Are they troublesome people to govern ? — Not so far as I am aware. 66 1 . The Company has no difficulty in ruling them, and keeping them in order ? — I think not ; I speak particularly of the English half-breeds. I have generally had them with me on my expeditions, and found them good practi- cable men. 66a. Chairman.'] Is the number of the half-breeds much increasing f— I should think it is ; when: they are colonised, they are increasing largely. 663. Mr. Charles FitzwiUiam.] You spoke of the settlement at the Red River i'ust now, as if it was a settlement of Indians ; there are very few Indians there, beUeve ?-— "niere are a good many at both ends. 664. I mean fuU-blooded Indiws?— A good many Crees are settled there. ■ m •'■>ii< '"■m •h^ ,i-f.^^..-^ and others. vf'KV. 665. They V.-' :i%i -iff- '*i:; iJ.M', ., 4^^- MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BE^RE THE ,^.imx % £llta,itMk-f^^'' ***^5. They do not ilann, do they ?— They do to a smaU extent. ^ /* >1 .■B ! ) ' f 666. Are they not the only instancei oi Indians, except these that hare been S3 Febnury 1857. suireuncted by the population of Canada, that you know of, who have settled down as ffomers? — There is one instance in the States that I have heard of. ■i66y. Where 1*^1 fomt the name of the tribe. 668. The Chflvokees tnrvYes ; they have seUled down, and have really become civilised ; they have thefir own Monber going to the Legislature^ and tiiey have schools. .••; "5^'''':i 669. The Cherokees arfe not "now inhabiting the ground when thi^ weire imgmaUy found f>rrNo ; they have changed their ground, and also po have some of the bthers ; some have immigrated from their own bnds to the Red Rivern^ 6^0. Mr. RoebtickJ] In tiie whole history of America has there been one instance of a half-breed settlement continuing up to the present time ?><-I am not able to answer that question. 671. Hais it not been found by experience that the red man is imposed to that kind of life which we call civilised life ? — ^Exactly so ; there is no doubt about it -* y 679. And wherever the dvilised man comes the red wan disappears r-^Yets^ that is the result, generally speaking. f. 673. Mr. Gqrdw.} In a letter from Sir George Simpson, which is to be found in some piq;>er8 laid before Parliament in 1842, he says: " Our different trading establishments are the resort or refhge of many of the natives who, from a^, infirmity, or other causes, are unable to follow the chase ; they have the benefit of the caie and attention, free of expense, of our medical men, of whom Vy ' about 12 are usually em^doyed in the servioe; every tradhig establishment being in fisct an Indian horoitid." How far does your experience as a medical man in the service of &e Company bear that out ? — ^Wherever we act as medical men our services are given gratuitously. We go to a distance if an ht/SSim is at a dis^kp and ^ve him taken to a fort, and hylatt(», it would be a &lse charge ? — Perfectly emmeous : in &ct the Indian u more readily attended to generally than the others. 677^ And as a rule the m^'Ucal men appointed by the Company would not consi^ it their sole duty to attend to the Company's servants? — Certainly not j they are there for the Indians as much as for the Company's peqple. .■■ ,678. Mr. Roebuck.] How long did you say that you dwelt at Moose Factory ? — ^Ten years. 679. During that time what was the average number of the worn-out hunters who lived there upon your charity ? — I cannot exactly tell that. The popu- lation of the place was, I think, about 180 altogether; few Indians came there; I)Ut there were generally two or three or four old femilies, or six sometimes, pensioners at the place. They calledi at the Fort ; they were there regularly every week: tj^ey bad their encampment at the place, and they went and hunted at intervals as they were able, and if they were not able to get food 9i\(|^i^§^ they bad it given to them. :.itr', ■^ *- ■ ,#i;v; V'v*v- ' ,.; ■< ;. V 'I':-^' ■}i 0. How many people wOMld those femilies number ?— -Fttrhaps 12 { perhaps l^^l 14 aUogether: ''''.'"^ t^^-^^ul^^ ■''>^-f^n-r>(*fy>^f,:ifi,,^^y,„^. x^^^ ,;• ' 681. Then I understand you t^taHheM they fen.,-.' I ' ■^m.y ; ■■■)*'■■ ■ .'^R"'» h M "; iiid "i"^^..';'; )od ';■•.,;'; out -l^'-p ;'"';' »u- ■:;}''-^'-''.'', int, '<'b>*''- , ney ;/■•>• '" «•*■' ,v.' ,,'-f ,• .^tisr ,i3 they were received at the Fort; we never forced them into the Fort; baiif J.]U»,E»q^ii.i>. they came and asked aflsistaBC* and wished to stay, they did so. _____:_■ 683. Mr. Labouchere wishes to know whether anything is done with r^tpect , VZ:..^V^ to vaooination ? — ^Yea ; vaeeiiic matter is sent to all the posts. I may mention i%:lW: a curious fact, which is, that in tlie year 1836 the unalUpox was broi^^t «q» by ;'^ a steamboat firom the Stwtca. A gnitleman at the Sasklttobeww vaccinatM au '■f, the Cree Indians thai name in » and there was aeaic^ a s^ag^ case pcciwred ^ -f^> among the tribe; we supposed it was because they had all beeuTaceinated;- whereas deaths took j^aee amonget the more distant tribes, near the MissQurii The smaU'pox was brought by steamboat up the Missouri, and was brew|^| V over to the Saskatchewan by a quantity <>f hone stealers, who he^ni^that the disease waa at the Missouri, and want to steal h<»8es there. They fcund the ladiaiM dying by hundreds ; they took the disease* with them, and mopt of tben^ died upon the road. / ; *^ 684. Ilaloag you from Moose Factory to the mouth of the Maokenaie River, ":--:-''^f},- where you lived; how long did you live there !?— About nine montiis at Foi| ■''-}.!:■ -''''''''^l Simpson, and two years at Bear hake, which is in the Mackenzie district. '' r\ ^v .' ' v^fv?/^ 685. How many worn-out hunters lived there, deriving charity from you}— ^ ^ j^^l/; I do not remember; I think there were about two or three fiuuiMes whilstJ^ ' ^^ r'''':' ' ■ was there ; at the one post. • ^^ "-. 686. Say six people ?— Yes, about that at that time ; but it varies according ' ,vft'; , to the privations which the Indians have suffered. V^;:fe i? 687. Mr. Gumey.] Did I understand you rightly, that in addition to the ? ; . worn-out hunters wjbo were resident, there was aiso gratuitous medical advice ;^':''^: ''';.. given to the other Indians as they happened to t^M^t^^il^?---^ t^ve^ one.that !• A'^^ v]^ came, or that we heard of. ,- ;"'.' ,!i^fklp■)u\ ,c.:tr.;. ■Mzt^s!!^ ik '^1/ 'i^' ' ":^:' 688. ^\x John PaMngtm.} How iar south do the fisq^inmctocaBe Y-n-AIbng 1' - , v ihe shore of Hudson's Bay ; they come to Churchill, in latitude 69*. 689. Dp they come down as far south as the Great Slave Lake ?-^They do not go inland at aU ; the furthest Inland that they go is up the Back River^ j>v ; ' f 4 v! that we know of now. ' . " ' A^^ -'"^ 690. They always keep to the rivers or the sea? — Yes* it ia generally ' found so. • ,-" '"^i^'tSi'V'; 691. Is there in the interval a large tract of load between the North American Indians and the Esquimaux 7— Certamly ; a sort ;' , '■ ^terval between them is about 60 or 100 miles. > 694. Mr. Grogan.l How long at any time did you reside at the Red River Settlement ? — About two mont& at one time ; tliat was the longest period I ^ias , there. 695. Do you know the regulationa of the American companies with M^ard to ^f ,< hunting; do they give a larger price relatively to their value fbr th6 inferior '['/"- ■■? skins, as the Hudson's Bay Company does ? — ^They sell their goods nearly at the same price as the Hudson s Bay Company, only the goods are inferior ; IndiiinCi, frequentiy from the American side, come over to the Hudson's Bay Comnkmy to ,, get good guns or a good article, and they get ttiem as cheaply as in the states ; ' , < that I have heard from hunters who have Men among the Americans. Ariother ;. ' -^ point I may mention, namely, the proportion of spirits which is acquired on ' the American frontier; when I travelled down from the Red River to CiW* Wing to the Minesota territory, nearly every American Indian that I found tr^g, had botties of spirits witiihin^ ;^,^^,^ ,,^^^^^ V 2 696. Mr. ; '-r ^f:'-^W- .•iy,.5r-' *',»', ,»("" ■ f->;«v 44 MINUTES OF £VIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. Sae,Vtq.,u ,v. ggg. Mr. Charles HtzwilHam.] That country which you travelled through rr 1 fipom Red River down to Crow Wing was a so-called settled country, was it not 1 03 Fcbnurjr 1857. _No. 697. It formed what is called in the States, Indian territory ?— Perfectly so, as much as in any of the Hudson's Bay Company's territory, where I passed throivh ; we came to little posts between Pembina and Crow Wing. 698. I mean within the boundary of the Minesols territory ?— Yes. 699. Consequently these people who traded in this liquor were not the licensed Indian traders, men who had paid money to obtain a license to trade with the Indians, but they were the free settlers ? — Yes, I think free settlers. 700. Over whom no company had any power whatever; an American trading company has no power over the free settler of Minesota ? — ^The Govern- ment have ; they made it a rule that no spirits should be sold to the Indians on or near the frontier ; that was what I understood ; whereas there they had abundance ; it was against the rules of the Government for them to get it, but the Government could not prevent it. 701. Chairman.] Do you imagine that the American Fur Trading Company does put any effectual check upon the sale of spirits to the Indiims in their country r— I cannot tell, because I have never been among them. Jotfis, 26* die Februarii, 1867. ti^fy MBMBBRS PRK8ENT. Mr. Adderley. Mr. Bell. Mr. Blackburn. Mr. Edward Ellice. Mr. Charles Fitzwitliam. Mr. Gladstone. Mr. Gordon. Mr. GregBon.' Mr. Grogan. Mr. Guroey. Mr. Percy Herbert. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Laltouchere. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Roebuck. Viscount Sandon. The Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCHERE, m the Chair. ' * Sir George Simpson, called in ; and Examined. '■''-";':^^:.m. Sir 6. Sn^teH. 702. ChatrtHan-] I BELIEVE you hold an important situation in the adminis- ~ tration of the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company? — I do. $0 Fdwuwjf 1857. yog What is it ? — I have been Governor of their territories for many years. 704. How long hare you held that situation ? — Thirty-seven years I have been their principal representative. ' 705. Mr. Edward EUicc] As governor the whole time?— Yes; I have held the situation of governor the whole time. 706. Chairman.'] What is the nature of your authority in that capacity ( — The supervision of the Company's affairs ; the presiding at their councils in the countnr, and the principal dirt;otion of the i^hole interior management. 707. Where do you generally reside ? — I have resided for sevmd years at the Red River Settlement ; I have resided in Oregon ; I have resided in Atha- basca, and latterly I have resided in Canada. 708. Is there any fixed seat of government within the territories of the Hud- son's Bay Company ? — There is no fixed seat of government, but there is a seat of council for ine northern and the southern departments ; one at Norway- house, at the northern end of Lake Winnipeg, and the other at Michipicoton, or Moose Factory, for the southern department. 709. Your authority extends, I imagine, as well over Rupert's Land as over the territory which the Company holds by license ?— Over the whole of the Company's affain in North America. .;■ ' ■ 710. What ^S::^0^';^ SELECT GOMMirTEE OP THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 45 710. What is the nature of the council which you have mentioned r —The {irincipal officera of the Company, the chief ftcton, are memher» of council, f there is not a sufficient number of chief factors the number is made up by chief traders, who are the second class of partners, and ail matters connected with the trade are discussed and determined at this council. 711. What is the nature of tlie authority of the council as distinguished from your own ; are they merely advisers ? — ^They fare advisers, and they give their opinions and vote upon any question that may bo under discussion. 712. Does the ultimate authority and decision reside in you solely, or is it with you in conjunction with the council ? — With me in conjunction with the counciL 713. Do you mean that they could outvote you and prevent your doing any*' thing which you thought proper ? — ^They could outvote me, but if has never been so ; in the absence of the council my authority is supreme ; in travelling through the country, or giving any direction connected with the management <^ the business, my authority must be acted upon until it be annulled or cUsallowed by the council or the Company. 714. Of course, having administer'ed the affairs of the Hudson's Bay Com- pany during so long a period, you are well acquainted with every part of their territories? — I have travelled through the greater part of the country ; I have not visited what are usually known as the Barren Grounds. . 715. You are well acquainted with the western portion, as well as the eastern ? — ^Yes ; I have not been in Mackenzie's River, but I have been in nearly all the other parts of the country ; my usual route in going up the country is from Montreal by Rainy Lake and Lake Winnipeg to lied River ; 1 have crossed the Rocky Mountains at three diiferent points to Oregon. 716. Will you have the goodness to give to the Committee an account of your impressions of the character of the territory of the Hudbon's Bay Com- pany in point of soil and climate, particularly with reference to its adaptation for the purposes of cultivation and colonisation ? — I do not think that any part of the Hu(&on's Bay Company's territories is well adapted for settlement ; the- crops are very uncertain. 717. Do you mean that observation to apply only to Rupert's Land or to the entire of the territory now administered by the Hudson's Bay Company ? — I mean it to apply to Rupert's Land. 718. How would you describe the limits of Rupert's Land to the west? — The Rocky Mountains to the west. 719. Would you apply that observation to the district of the Red River? — Yes. v;.,., ■■: (.,■::- 720. And the country immediately behind it ? — Yes. 721. Is it not actually settled?— I do not consider it well adapted for settlement. 722. Why so?— On account of the poverty of the soil, except on the banks of the river. Tiie banks of the river are alluvial, and produce very fair crops of wheat ; but these crops are frequently destroyed by early frosts ; there is no certainty of the crops. We have been under the necessity of importing grain vrithin these last ten years from the United States and from Canada, for the support of the estabiishroent. 723. Have yo\i an equally unfavourable opinion of the country on the Sas- katchewan River ? — Yes ; ^ihe climate is more rigorous, and the crops are even less certain on that river ; the scarcity of timber also is a great bar ; there is little or no wood in the country. The present population of Red River have great difficulty in providing wood for their immediate wants. 734. Is there any part of the territory of Rupert's Land towards Lake Superior that you think adapted for cultivation ? — Immediately upon the right bank of the Rainy Lake River cultivation might be carried on to advantage ; but there is merely a slip of land adapted for cultivation.; immediately behind are deep mox'asses which never thaw. 725. Mr. Gladstone.] Is that right bank of the Rainy Lake River in the Hudson's Bay territory ? — Yes. 726. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Do you mean by "never thaw" that in the summer, when the surface is thawed, if a person was to walk through that morass his foot would get to the ice below? — No, not immediately so ; but by Sir G. Simpum. 36Febn|WV 1857. diggi'io deeper you would come to ice. v tV.. -J '^ "',727. Chairman.} ■ ' ^J .-■■ m -.. ■ ; ■ , ■ '"*■;'" ''-./ :p^, •i^"-^ ; '■'■'"/);;' ■ '- ,.!> , 'S^f ^''y m:] ;K\.;:i 46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir G. Srniptni. y^. 1^'* 727. CfcwmMw.] You have stated that in Rupert's Land you do uot think ' there is any extent of territory of any consequence which would, for some «6 Vtbamy 1857. tin^e at all events, he ikdapted for colonisation and settlement ?— Which would he &Tourable for colooisation or settlement ; it is possible. 738. Do you apply the same observation to the land to the westward of the Rodgr Mountains ?— In the British territory I do, north of pandld 49* ; it is a nigged, precipitous, mountednoui country. 7139. Is the whole of it al that character ?— Principally of that charaoter. '^ 730. Do you know Vancouver's Island 1—1 have passed Vancouver's Island ■ previously to its being British territory ; I cannot speak to it 731. Do you consider Vancouver's friand as being within the territory of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — No. 733. You do not mean your observations to apply to thatt—No, not to Vancouver's Island. 733. Are you acquainted with the coast near Vancouver's Island and above it T— Yes, I have gone along the coast from Puget's Sound to the Rusdan principal establishment at Sitka. 734. Do you believe that coast to be altogether unCavouraUe for the purposes of cdbnisation ? — I believe it to be quite unfit for colonisation. 735' Doyouimow Queen Charlotte's Island ? — I hacve not been on Queeur Charlotte's Island. ^ - 736. Mr. Edward Eliice.'] You confine your observation to the main land ? —Yes. 737. Mr. GtadstotuJ] I think you have spoken of Rupert's Land as including, from west to east, the whde country, beginning from the Rocky Moutttaina' and moving eastwards ?— Yes, to the shores of the Bay. 738. Do you understand that to have been the original signification of the term Rupert's Land, dating from the period of the charter?— Yea, tiutt it' inchides the land on all waters falMi^; into Hudson's IBkty ;, tlite|r form the boMid»^ ^ lies of the tcnitory. 739. There is a reference in the chaiter to the fell of the water, is there ?-r. I (^not call that positively to aoind ; that is the imJireaBion upon n^y mii^^ and I believe itte the general impresnon. «' 740. It k di^cult, 1 a^poee, kw yon to state whit you would take «^ Iw) . northern boundary ?— The northern boundary of Rupert's Land I diU ^' Methy Portage and Li±e, chvidiqg the waters that fell into the Bay tftm those that fell intp the Arctic Sea; ^era is a heyii «f iRod 4t UwJH^ - Portage. "•'•rr-^';^. ..uv-jrTr*;., 741. Taking tfa^e Methy Portage as the northern boundary llnr that longitude,* as you eome eastwards the territory trends very vmA to the north?—' Yes. . /_,: _^ _ . ' 74a. And goes up to the Melville Peninsula, which seems i6 b^ about the Borthemmost part } — Yes. 743- Speaking of the whcde of thi^ country, as included in Rupert's Landt^. would jan draw any material distinction between the oliimate of one part and ^^ the chomfte of another? — Yes; the climate of tiie southern part of the oouotry is not so rigorous as that of the northern; the wintess are not so 744. What woidd you si^ was the length of the winter in the most fevourably situated parts of the territory ? — Five and a half months^ I should say, at Red River, which is ''^e most fevourable part of the country. 745- Is there any ptut of the coast of Hudson's Bay, or James's Bay, which partakes of a comparatively good dimate ? — Certainly not. 746. Is the softening influence of the sea not much felt in any portion of it! — Not much; at York Factory, within about 18 indies or two feet of the' surfece, we come to ice. 747> Mr. Bdward Eltte9.'\ At all times 01 the year?-'At all times of the 748. Mr. Gladslme.] Would that observation apply to SwtfS's Bay, even^ down to the southernmost point, viz., Moose Fort ? — I should say the t;limate is not much more favourable; barley very seldom ripens there, and thepota* toes are exceedingly smalU and the crops unproductive. 749. Irrespectivdy of the question of north and south, is not there a good deal / r,/-M{f; »« i "■ m j;*= Kfiif ■-«■" 'fefi- m mi •'? '^.U -It ■■T'-.i-Aj*:;, ,'/.*?,! -■kiA-if-. ■r- - X,-:, "0^ U'.m ^'Bi ■,JS> .«'. ^fe i%M: vm^ aiaa; the t it Ida, !?— . the'^ wle, ind,,/;:'^^:'.:.!*' md ' '•' the 8Q .,,,^. ■ blv Ich- k:/::'i of die' '-^•r' ■- ',^- 5: :*.--i..»; 135 ■%■ SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 47 deal of difhrenoe in the clinnte, aoeording as it liea eastiward or westward ? — Sir a, afMfMm. Yes. - J SO. Does the dimate improve westward? — It rather improves westward ; a6 Fabmary 1857. as you go from the coast westward the climate improves. ,. 75 !• Did you ever hear the saying ia. America that a degree west was equal to » degree south?— No, 1 never heard it. :^ 752. Take the Saskatchewan country, upon the hanks ; is there no alluvial soil on the River Saakatdiewan ^-^lliwe is alluvial soil, but the season is not ^s- so iQng, and the frosts are earlier than at Red "River. 753' Have you travelled up the Saskatchewan yourself? — ^Repei|t^y,^'9% ''' 1 have very seldom beenable to raise wheat in the Saskatchewan, o/^h '/^v 754. Have you travelled up different branches of it ?— I have. 5 755. What length of winter would you give to tb() banks of the Saskatche^ wan?— About a fortni|ght or thi'ee weeks longer than at Red River. ■■'iMit'v / ■ 756. Would it be six months ? — Yes. ^ ; -v ' S^ 757. In the accotfnt which you have given of the climate of that couutrVf,^ "/^^ take, for instance, the dimate of the banks of the Saskatchewan, you have made no allowance for the influences upon climate which are produced by settlement r . .ji — No ; I am not aware that settlement does pvoduce any material influence upon climate; I have not known it do so in Canada; I have been in the Canadas for a great many years, and I do not find the climate improved ; I think the last two winters have been the two most rigorous winters I have : experienced in Canada. ""''' 758. I suppose it is not to be doubted that when a lai^e district of country becomes populous^ there is then an influence upon climate ? — I have not seen it ; from my experience it is not so ; I think the climate of Canada is as severe as it hfiiB been at any time during the 37 years for which I have known the couptiy, 759. And that is true even with respect to the most settled and the n^pst densely peopled parts of the country? — Yes. <-*)«« 760. Taking the ease of the country to the west of the Roeky Modiii»^biR^ 'I^ understand you to have described Yancouver's Ibland as upon the whole favour- ably circumstanced with respect to cfimate?— I do not speak to Vancouter's I|W|ad; I have jiever been there, except touching the northern part of the island ija a steamer ; the weather was un&vonrable and I could not examane tl\^»land. ,,), .,,^,j . ' ■ ■■■' . 761. Takii|ff me Qoast opposite to Vancouver's Island, & it less favourabl;jf^ situated than Vancouver's Island ? — It is so ; it is ru^ed ; it is only the soutlriiiiir' end of Vancouver's Island that is favourable for settlement; the northern pwrtis exceedingly rugged, of the same charicter at the opposite mainland coast. ■'■'''^' ■ ■•' ' '■*'-•-'- -■••- ■■ ■■■•■ V '%\.''''''>ni,. :...:■ ^ 76a. Take tbe coast opposite the southern endof Vancouver^ Iskmd; it btt» , a south-western aspect, has it n6t? — The southern part of the mainland has. •' "i: 763. Is that as favourably circumstanced as Vancouver's Island itself?—' •■ i .-; I, think not ; it is not so fieivbnrable as the southern part of Vancouver'a?^ - M;S >: '^^ Island. ■' ''' av^ iui^:^ .^-.V':' •::> :^.:*v^v' 764. What is it that makes the portion of the mainland opposite the sa^berii'' ^? part of Vancouver's Islnnd less favourable for settlement than the island itself? — That portion in British territory is exceedingly n^ed and mountainous, craggy, and there is a want of soil. : ' 765. Is the mainland side of the channel there ru^ed, and the island sidtf ^ . of the channel open and favourable, or are both sides rugged? — The island !#;• ji/ :? '; «i', less rugp;ed than the mainland at the northern end of the island. ' ' 'p- 766. I am now speaking of the southern end of the island and of the land- /^ <^ ^^ Vard side of it? — ^The American side of the channel is the same character ot country. . .^,: '.--^ . 767. Rugged?— No, open. 'f:-' -■:■-•' JS ■:■■.:, :^-:i 768. What is the character of the ti£^nlffiM i^dM4% that op^n ootthtrf^^ "^ the landwanl side of the southern end of the ishmd? — ^The same character;; open, .;;?! ,i-K^rUfK, ,-. ■..-'-- i-^;^^!J-it.i%d«i .V-C/tJ i)!.,oV?- ;'.-AJ-ov.V)i». — ' .^|»t •"•\-- ■'■'''•■ '■■■ 769. Mi(' Bdu^Ellke.y 'tht^ U'nat JkMA tmiitoryhmJihft ^Jiuii-W^^^^^ American teiritory; that is south of 49^. t <, , j* 770. Mr. (JJfaifo^one.] Take it north of 49», between Fraser River and the water i ' —North of 49*, north of Fraser River, the country is exceedingly' rugged 0^25. K4 771. I know piV '^ m v#' ?-:«• , 48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ;* m-. Sir O. &mp$on. 771 . I know that your ovm experience and authority are very great ; but do ■- you think that the opinion which you have given of the climate of this territory a6 Februarjr 1857. jg jjjg general opinion ? — I thinlc so ; at least it is my opinion, and I believe it is the general opinion. 772. Mr. Gordon.] If I understand you rightly, you think that no portion of Rupert's Land is favourable for settlement, but that some portions might be settled?— Yes. 773. In your very interesting work of a " Journey Round the World," I find at page 45 of the first volume this description of the country between the liake of the Woods and the Rainy Lake : " From Fort Frances downwards, a stretch of nearly 100 miles, it is not interrupted by a single impediment, while - yet the current is not strong enough materially to retard an ascending traveller. Nor are the banks less favourable to agriculture than the waters themselves to navigation, resembling, in Rome measure, those of the Thames near Richmond. ' From the very brink of the river there rises a gentle slope of greensward, crowned in many places with a plentiful growth of birch, jpoplar, beech, elm, and oak. Is it too much for the eye of philanthropy to discern through the vista of futurity this noble stream, connecting;, as it does, the fertile shores of two spacious lakes, with crowded steamboats on its bosom and populous towns on its borders?" I suppose you consider that district favourable tor population ? — ^llie right bank of the river is favourable, with good cultivation ; that is to say^ ^ the soil is favourable ; the climate is not ; the back country is a deep morass^' and never can be drained, in my opinion. 774. Do you see any reason to alter the opinion which you have there expressed?— I do see that I have overrated the importance of the country aa a country for settlement. 775. Chairman.] It is too glowing a description, you think ?— Exactly so ; il^ is exceedingly beautiful ; the bank is beautifully wooded, aqd the stream ia very beautiful. 776. Mr. Gladstone.] What is the character of the Saskatchewan, or of any of the principal branches of it as a stream, with regard to navigation ? — Theret are several long rapids in the Saskatchewan, at various points. I think a^ steamboat might, with the exception of those rapids, or by cutting canaU round those rapids, asoend to Edmontcin. 777. That is on the northern Saskatchewan f — It is. 778. What would you say of the sr athem Saskati^ewan ?— On the southern Saskatchewan there are fewer rapids. ■' 779. Are there long reaches which are wholly without rapids ? — Yes. 780. With a depth ample for navigation r — ^There are chains of rapids beloMr the junction of the two rivers. 781. AtNepeeween? — Yes; there are two very long chains of rapids; 10 miles at one place, and seven or eight miles at another. 782. Are there any long stretches of water of navigable depth* without rapids, upon the branches of the Saskatchewan ? — Yes. ,' 783. What is the longest stretch that you can remember ?-^Perhap8 50 or 60 mUes. ^ 784. Mr. Grogan.] Is it to be understood, then, that except for those rapidS' the northern branch would be navigable for steamers, as you describe, up to Edmonton ? — Yes ; at the junction with Lake Winnipeg there is a very long ^ rapid called the Grand Rapid. 785. What may be the length of it ? — From two to three miles. S 786. Those three rapids which you have pointed out would be the three obstacles to the navigation 1 — ^There are several other smaller rapids ; there are a great many rapids, but those are the principal rapids. f 787. Those are the rapids which you think would require expense to obviate ,f ihem ? — ^Yes. 788. Supposing that that expense should be incurred, and a canal, as you t have suggested, should be formed, would any difliculties of a serious character, ' sufficient to impede navigation, exist between Lake Winnipeg and Edmonton? > —In the spring of the year the water of the whole river is exceedingly low ; I have come down in a perfectly light boat, and we have been frequently undep^ : the necessity of getting out of the boat to hand it over shoal water. 789. Before the snow has melted r — Before the mountain snow has come. down, , J* AV- Irl! '-•"A:**', .»;:.:; ■;4;»*> :^., ■ •^v-' i--»i.' -> ■ ■.,■•.•*' Mr- SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 49 down, namely, from about the 10th to the 15th of May ; then about the Ist of aw G. Simp^H. June the mountain snows melt, and there is a freshet in the river. — ; 790. From the I'^t of June to what time would the navigation of the river a6 Febnury 1857. continue good? — Until the month of September tolerably good; the water falling off about the middle of July. 791. On the southern branch of the Saskatchewan to what extent would it be navigable, supposing those improvements were effected ? — I cannot speak so distinctly with regard to the southern branch ; I have merely seen it in parts ; 1 have not gone up the southern branch to any great distance. There is no timber on the southern branch, and there is very little timber on the northern branch. 793. There have been no attempts, I suppose, to effect those improrements ? —None at all ; there is no commerce to justify any outlay. 793. What is the distance from the southern part of Lake Winnipeg to Fort Wilham on Lake Superior r — About 500 miles, 1 think ; from Lake Superior to Lake Winuipeg is about 500 miles of bad canoe navigation with 66 portages, varying in length from 100 yards to 3^ miles. 794. Do you know a gentleman of the name of Captain Kennedy who ' aade a speech at a meeting of the Toronto Board of Trade ? — I do. 795. He states there that the distance would not exceed 200 miles r — Yes ; be does not know the country ; he never was in the country. 796. What may be the state of the river going through Itainy Lake and from, the Lake of the Woods down to Fort William ; is it navigable for boats, or raft8^';r' ■^^ ,/ or anything? — Between the Rainy Lake and Fort William it is navigable only by canoes ; I have passed through that country about forty times ; it is passed only by canoes, and in many places with very great difficulty. 797. Is that from want of water ? — From want of water and shoals in the navigation, and the wretched character of the^ country altogether ; many of the rivers are embarrassed with timber constantly falling ever/ year ; there is one river which is one continuous mass of timber, requiring to be removed every season. '* . ' ' 798. Mr. Edward FMice.] h that what is called the Savanne portage ?— Yes ; that is a river from the Savanne portage to Mille Lac. 79p. Mr. Grogan.] Do you consider that obstruction so material as to impede the navigation of that river?— Yes. 800. Could not it be removed ?— -It could not ; in the autumn of the year, or ' ''-' *' " rather in the month of August, I have been obliged to get out of a light canoe and wade in the water, handing the canoe along this river. 801. Has any attempt ever been made to remove those obstructions? — The obstructions are removed every season, so as to enable the canoes to pass. 802. You mentioned, vnth regard to the Red River Settlement, that the- climate was so unfavourable for the growth of corn, and that there was so much uncertainty as to the ripening of the com, that at times you were obliged to import corn for the supply of the residents there ? — We imported corn some years ago ; there was a failure of the crops ; 1 was apprehensive of famine, and imported flour from St. Paul's, in the Minesota territory, and from Canada. 803. Is that an exceptional case, or does it occur every year ? — It does not occur every year ; it is an exceptional case ; but the crops very frequently fail. We have been obliged to send for seed grain ; we have not had sufficient grain to sow the ground in tiie following season. S04. Can yon say, during the 37 years that you have been Governor, how often you have been under the necessity of importing com for the supply of the people at the Red River Settlement ? — We had never imported any large quantity of grain for the support of the people until that season, in the year 1847, I think ; but the crops have been entirely destroyed, from the country having been overflowed with water. The country was entirely overflowed with water in the year 1826 ; the habitations were swept away, and the people were obliged to remove to high grounds for the purpose of saving themselves. 805. Am I to understand that the occasion to which you refer was an entirely exceptional one, and owing to the flooding of the water ? -It did not arise on that occasion from the flooding of the water, but from an apprehended scarcity owing to the presence of troops. In 1826 the country was flooded and the 0.35. f' - 1 ,r ' G ^ V. crops •-^..j;,., ■^'^l -A -'^' ■*^>(B:-'^Ji;',ii>i^; ^}:9r 5 JV:?^ 830. Mr. Adderley.] What is the nature of the wood growing in the WQody sir 0. Simfiam. district ? — There has been elm at Hed River. It is now quite denuded of wood ■ ■ about the Red River Settlement by Kre. d'2\. 1 refer to the higher part about James's Bay ( what is the nature of the wood there ?— Small stunted pines. 8ja. What is the highest latitude at which fine timber grows?— I cannot tell precisely ; there is very little timber on the shores of the Bay to the north, 100 miles north of Churchill- On the eastern side of the Bay there is very little timber north of Big River, or Fort George on James's Bay. 833. When you ^t to those fine elm forests, is it not veiy fine timber? — That is in the prairie country. There was some very good timber about lied River at one time. 834. Is the natural wild growth of the prairie country good ? — In some parts. 825. Is it very luxuriant ? — In some parts ; in other parts the soQ is exceed- insly thin, and there is very little herbage. 826. Vbliat should prevent cultivated produce growing equaUy luxuriantly on the same spot ? — Immediately behind Red River, about a mile firom the banks of the river, there is merely a thin skin of soil. 837. Is there any luxuriant herbage, either grass, herbs, or fruit of any Idh^ at a greater distance from the river than you have mentioned? — I think not, except in detached spots. There has never been any cultivation a mile from the river. ' 828. Would not many of the impediments which ^ou hare tiHuded to be got rid of by art and cultivation ? — Certainly not. 829. It is iu^oBsible r-^It is impossible; I have pftddled or«t the md^ of some of the houses in my cailoe. ^^^t^^MS!-,-.^, .u»ii^'ih,Hhi.--^ ^-ti.^' 830. Do you say that you never knew any ^d litotiiiwy ftl whldH'Iftfe <»iii&te was softened by drainage? — I have heard of the climate 'uf countries being improved by drainage, and settlement and cultivation, but I huve^riot experienced it myself, 831. Are you aware that Europe was otuse as much^fiiizen as Ruperii's Land now is ? — I am not aware that it was ; I have heard of some historical facts. 833. Can you state the present population of Red River, and the increase in the last 10 years ? — llie population of Red River is abcmt 8^000. 833 . In what time has it doubled ? -^The settlement has been established' 40 years. 834. We had a statement from a former iritness that, 10 years ago, the population was 5,000 ; can you state wheth^ that is correct ?— It may have been ; the population is now about 8,000. It is not from natural increase, but firom the migration of some Indians from other parts of the country. 835. Is there not always emigration in the shape of a squatting population from the United States ? — Not from the United States. «' '836. Where from r — The neighbouring districts ; Indian migration. ' ' 837. Should you say that there was much difference between the climate of Minesota and that of the Red River ? — Decidedly, the further south you go the better the climate is. 838. And do you state that there is no overflow of population from Minesota to Red River ? — I am not aware of any ; 1 believe two or three Americans have gone firom St. Paul's, who have seated themselves down as small dealers and opened shops. 839. Is there any barrier to their doing so from the nature of the Red River Settlement regulation ? — None. 840. Mr. Kinnaird.] Are there not westward from the Red River colony several hundred miles of level country towards the Rocky Mountains ?— Yes, a ven^ fine country. 841. And, comparatively speaking, a railway might easily be made along there ? — Yes, from the Red River to the Rocky Mountains. 842. How far are the large rivers from the settlement of York navigable up the interior? — ^They are navigable by boats from York Factory to Lake Winnipeg ; boats carrying about three tons. 843. Without much portage ? — There are a great many, portages ; there are from 40 to 45 portages, I think. ,/..?,. i . h-ik,^-. - - *=.. * - 844. Could thejTeasily be removed J-Nol^^*' ' ''■' -"^'^"^^ -- ' '-^^ 0.25. G a 845. Mr. ■itl 1 \\?~ -» !' J '^/yisiafSSjrWy-n:'.-: sa MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE TflE every thing is a6 ^Febnury 1857. ihXt.Saqmii. 845. Mr. Edward EHice.] I think that at those po, Uteridiy carried on men's backs ? — Ves. 846. Mr. Kinmird.] Did you not, after that interesting extract from your book, recommend to the Company the establishment of a settlement somewhere between the Lake of the Woods and the Rainy Lake? — ^No ; I suggested that a miaiionary establishment might be formed there. 847. Which would attract settlement ? — Merely for the improvement of the Indian population. 848. You recommended it as a place adapted for a missionary station, which, in jOtber words, would be adapted for a settlement ? — A missionary settlement would live by fishing in a great degree ; they could not only raise produce bat fish, and ff,ve their time and attention to hunting during the winter. 840^ Are you not aware that the whole of the manure Which is made in the Red River Settlement is wasted, because it is not required for the improvement of the land, it being so fertile ?— Some improvident, careless people, who know vm' little about cultivation, rather than take the trouble of collecting their n^imure, throw it over the side. 850. I believe it is not required? — In some parts it is required ; in the low alluvial points it is not required; the low alluvial points which are improved year by year, or every second or third year, from the overflowing of the river, require no manure. 85 1. Mr. Belt.] What communication is there on the shores of the Saskatch- ewan towards Edmonton ; what is the nature of the country ? — The country is level ; it is a rolling prairie. 852. Itis a practicable country ? — ^Yes ; I have travelled on horseback through the whole of that prairie country. I haye |^ravelled from the Red River to the Columbia on horseback. 853. Mr. Gurtiey.'] I understand you to have spoken of the right bank of the river oi the Rainv Lake ; by the right bank, do you mean the southern bank or the northern bank ? — Going down the stream ; the north-eastern bank. 854. Gk>ing down the stream would be rather the southern bank ? — No, north-east ; the opposite side is south-west, the American bank. 855. Does not that bank belong to the United States ? — No, the right bank of the Rainy Lake River is British territory; the river divides the territory ; the light bank, going down the stream from the Rainy Lake to the Lake of the Woods, is British territory. ?rt, ; : , [ ~ ^^ •; ' / 856. The opposite bank is American f— Yes. 857. Then the right bank is what would rather be the northern bank on this map: — ^The north-eastern. 858. Opposite the southern part of Vancouver's Island there is a place on the maps marked Fort Langley ?— That is at the mouth of Fraser River. 859. I believe you mentioned that there was no very good land between Eraser River and the coast ; but how is the land immediately inland from Fort Langley, between Eraser Hiver and the American boundary ? — The boundary is Eraser River, or very nearly so. 8(io. Mr. Charles FitswUliam.] Does not Eraser River run north and south ? — I think the boundary is very near Fraser River, at the mouth of Eraser River. 86 1. Mr. Gurney.] My object was rather to inquire whether Fort Langley Was in any way the centre of a small district of good land r — No, it is near the southern boundary of the British temtory. 862. What is the character of that district ? — All the way down Fraser River to within about 50 miles of Fort Langley, it is an exceedingly rapid river. 863. What is the nature of the land eastward from Fort Langley, inland ? — A short distance to the eastward is level; there is a mountainous country higher up the stream. 5564. Therefore there is a space of level land immediately inland from Fort Langley r— Yes. 365. Is the mouth of the Eraser River at all available as n port or outlet ? — No ; there is a bar at the mouth of the river ; vessels with a small draught of water would take the ground. ', ■"''', 866. That bar could not be easily remOv^r diately. II -It would fill up agidn imrae- ■; S67. Mr ,l>' :;»« SELECT COMMmEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 53 jangley ,. lear the ^-Sf''. '■, -*i''; ^i*.. 8G7. Mr. Charles FUzwilliatn.] Do you know what the water on the bar is ? Sir &. Stt^pum. — I think about eight or nine feet. 868. Mr. Lffwe.] Which do you consider the best way to the Red River «6 Febniarjr 1857, Settlement from Europe ? — ^Through the United States, by Minesota. 86g. By St. Paul's?— By St. Paul's. ;.. 870. From Canada, which do you consider the best way? — By Lake Superior, Fort William and Hainy Liake, into Lake Winnipeg, and then on the southera side of Lake Winnipeg. 871. Is that the way you went yourself? — Forty times I passed over that ground. 872. Mr. BelL] Is there any other practicable route, from Canada to the Red River? — No other. 873. North of Lake Superior inland ? — ^There is no other practicable route. 874. What has induced you to change your opinion since you wrote that passage in your journey with regard to the nature of the climate and the soil, and its applicability for cultivation, because I observe that you had been 20 years in the country when you wrote that passage ? — I had never ^ven par- ticular attention to the climate of the country, nor to the fact of the country being one continued morass behind, until after my narrative was written ; the Company have a farm at the outlet of the Rainy Lake at the commencement of the river, and our crops very frequently fail. 875. Mr. Edward Ellke.] At Red River Settlement, owing to the great rt; uncertainty of the crops, do not the Company keep two years' consumption of ,' .1/ f grain on hand in case of accident? — Yes, that has been our object ; we never ■ ; * ^* can get up a stock of grain. - •^^J;;'^^;' 876. With regard to those floods which you have spoken of, are you not t; •^- ■,'•;/ aware that they nave happened repeatedly on former occasions? — Yes; there ' ?} v was a flood upon one occasion, a few years previous to 1820, on my firatv;^ ., ,, / "^ j visiting the country. In 1826 the whole country was one continued sea. ';". vi ■ ■.. .J - ■ : 877. And in 1848, 1 think f— Yes, about 1860 or 1851 there was another i^|g ; J :r''V flood. ■ ■ '-A /: 'v>";;i;>.S-; ■• 878. To give the Committee an idea of those floods, what did the breadth of . r" the river increase to ? — There was no river ; it was a continued sea for hun- .,,;'•:- v'r dreds and hundreds of square miles. \ 'J , ;' ' . 879. With regard to the farming at Red River, do you consider it the inte- ;, / jv,- rest of the Company to promote agriculture there? — It is very desirable, for , v- the purpose of furnishing ourselves with the means of living. 880. Have the Company been in the habit of giving encouragement to , . t; »,;. agriculture at Red River? —We have promoted agriculture by every means ia :'^'si'^^%^' r our power. ^If ' i O.;- 88 1 . Have the Company established modd farms ? — ^We did establish a model X;-' . v't-: IJarm. ' ' .t'l..^'-^ '3 882. Have the Company taken out stock on purpose to promote and im- . ^ '"^V- . prove the breeds ? — Yes ; the most improved breeds of cattle and horses and sheep. :, : 883. You told us about the character of the. territory in Rupert's Land and ;, in Oregon, but you have said nothing of the character of the land in the part > : ' of Canada occupied by your posts, and more especially the part between ,-, Sault St. Mary and Fort William ; what is the character of the country on the '^ noith side of Lake Superior between those points ? — It is a very craggy, barren, '^ - rugged countiy ; a surface of rock. ' 884. Viscount Sandon.] You are well acquainted, I imagine, with the Assi- niboine branch of the Red River? — Yes. 88.5. Will you state to the Committee how far it is navigable ? — ^There are / > shoals and rapids at the very commencement of the stream. i^ [ 886. For what distance ? — From the Forks where it unites with the Red River, f. I think about three miles, there is the first rapid ; and 20 or 30 miles higher up a further rapid, and above that there are very frequent rapids. .;.. ■ ; 887. So that it is in fact unfitted for navigation ? — Quite so. .^IS.;- . 888. What is the character of the land along the banks of that river ?— The ;.^and is pretty good immediately along tiie banks. ' ' 889. I think tha land is cultivable nearly to the sources of the Assiniboine river; immediately upon the banks. j '' • i ' 8yo. That is fpr a distance oJ" about 150 miles ?--Ye8. ''''"• ' " " ■ ;";^.^.;0.25. ■i;;p:v •;• '.': ^;i. : . 03 -"■.■'"■ ; ■"■'. 891. A former ,. ,4^':,;^]^';] ■■■':--'3 ' ,f' .1. V" -':-'--;r'i!;ii^K: ■^^;»^v■ %:' " '\ f^l.- ■ < 54 MINUTES OF EVIDENGE TAKEN BEFORE THE •9 Mmiurf 1857, . . 894. Afaasaa mtsnam has stated that the Americans are extending their Betdements verjn^^jr towards the Red River, and that uiunhc^ have crossed t^ bou^dnqr j iosou JnMigine that fact to he correct ;- OUuf^iniie.'] Is St Paul's near the junction of the St. Peter's with -Mp,; I think, they are settled within the jBritish. territory. I am ,iln^awpre,ihi^t th^ are outside th6 line. d' ^.^O^tktui pot lort Pembina belong to .the Americaiia J^T-^^The Pembina. Fort Pembiaa is an old trading establishment of th( fi^ompfuogrr, I ! ^'^h lere is qq fort at the Hudsbn's Bay vi.' 901. Mr< (rn»«i.^ But does Fort Pembina belong to the Hudson's Bay : yCompany or to ue Americans ? — Fort Pembina did beltmg to us. 90:l.;Ta^adlO(ndoes or whatever you plea^ to oa^ it ? — I think the settlers are upon both sides of the line. ...f ,\U ' ^04. Yis^oulAiSMdlMif] You imagine that the nearest American settlement is on 'the Crow Wing River? — I consider that an American settlement because there if an Amte^oan populatioiii I consider it tt^ nearest American settlement. •^■^f: poSi Ifitwas {Proved, that tfa^ were Amerioan settlers coming in consider- 'ible numbers to the British boundary you would think that a/ considerable argument in favour of the goodness of that territory, would you not ?— i do not v&iiik they vrould go to the Red River from the United States or anywhftre else (V,f<>r the purpose of settlement. . . 006. I only asked you whether, supposing that was proved, you would not )re«urd it ai a donsiderable argument in favour of the character of the territory ? I ,-^es ; but I should not agree in that fact. .907. Mi^ fitaf^kburt^.] Provided that they settled for the purpose of agricul- ture } — ^Yes : but I am satisfied that they will not do so. 908. Mr. Ckarlts FitxwiiUam,] You say that the north shore of Lake 'Superior is barreci and rocky r — It is, except at the outlets of the rivers ; the ' general character is rugged and barren, and a surface of rock and water and s^amp. . 909. Is there anjr timber immediately on the shore of Lake Superior?—. , .; very little ; scarcely any ; it is all burnt ; it is a burnt wood countiy. J; :vM S'°' S*"™* by what ?— By fires having overrun the country; the greater ■ >f part of the thick- wood country is overrun by fires. Ui , 9 1 1 « Of what wood are those the remains ; is it a fir wood ? — Ii is a small ■ ' [description of fir. ;. j|^n 913. What is the breadth of that belt of timber r— It extends from the ^-shores of Lake Superior to the shores of Hudson's Bay. 913. Without any intermission ?— Yes ; except by lakes. I think there is a y . larger surface of water than of laud in the whole of that thick- wood country. ;|j 914. When you get from Lake Superior, and travel north, do not you come S -to any country which is timbered with maple and oak ; soft wood r — At the ^ River Kamenistiquoia falling into Lake Superior at Fort William, for 20 miles, ^1 think there is a good deal of maple, and perhaps a small ^uwtit^ of oak ; .. ,_....,_ ■<;'**^'|ff That I have not noticed oak. ■Jy- m: F^M.'i^M :'-fi-^n SELBOr COMMnTEE ON THE HCJt>30N'S BAY COMPANY. 5* 915. That wood grows on the valley of the Kam^nntiquoiAr^Yes: that u SirO. jbv*«i; Sor, barely 20 miles. ' J * — : - 916. I do not mean so far to the west as, that; there is a place ca9ed the 16 Fdbraary 1817. Pic?— Yes, it is a p&i^tly barren post ; it is' 8«;h4 np^ ^e Qcaoh mi *ock behind. .. ■ '':-ii- ' ;;:rr" :■'■'''■"■ '''■■^/'■\ 91 7. It is a mineral cOttttti^, thot%hV is k netf-^1re$| tdl 9)191^^ shore of Lake Superior is* a mhieralGountiTy. v; \ ■ i-V*' Z yi8. There is copper ?— Copper. ' "?<''^^ [,^m^v^^^^m. . 919. 'And iron ?<-< Yes." v . ;,; j!..:..;;i !u. ;. ^i>«4)i» 4:*-f;-- ■ '• ' 920. Andthev^getatioaiBpiBe<«ood?^YcR ^ « .S- • >* .. 921. When you go through a \.Ai, say of two nules of that country fimn the shores of the iaksi do you not then come to a mbple and odik yegetftitioa f— Certainly not There may be patches hevier and there, tm the hpika. of the river of maple, but in a very smoU quantity. ;; ! • j fP ',#: ' 922. The country rises from the bank of "^he shopft of Lake Supeiii»v 'dMf it ' not?--.Yes;.tathe wateftbed. 1 ' 923. You come into a country filled with small lakcistuid'moirassesP^^Ycis. -* 924. How are those lakes formed r-^^They have been lidies fiuth the b^k- ning of time, I believe. These basins are formed by htrgequaltititito of snow^' and the morasses are very deep, and the season is not suffidiently long to dry them up. '"'--■: ■-'-•■;- >■ ^ .. v^a. .■■ <• . ;•^t 925. Are there not some artificial reasons for that, as there are on the south- shore of Lake Superior ? — No ; I am not awane of ahy^ ^ .. •-?* -li 926. Dams of different sorte r — ^No. *^ ' ' ^ 9^7' Then it is not of the sume nature as the shore on the southern sldfr'of Lake Superior ? — I am not aware that the vraters are cb^med on the southern^ shore. 928. With regard to Fraz^r lUver, you said that the country on the midn-' v; land was generaUy unfavourable for cultivation ?— Yes. 'i?^>fe .'/ 929. But there are farms at Fort Langley, I think ?— There is a &rm at Fort ,?^i ^ c Langley. . v . . . . •• • -■■ ■ ■- /wir%^-'^' 930. Mr. Edm, -< ''*Mk] To what extent ; how many acres ?->-Peihaps attMUt v . V ' 20 acres. :^ ^uiyi-f^.-?:!'.'^ ^.::ii'.,^y^.^-: /'■^KAy- ■ 931.. 'MxiChatii '■ itlUtm.'] But there is plenty ofrooot ft>ritti!^i>^Yes. ^ '■ ' 932. Chairman.'] 1 nere is somO extent of ground there fit for cultivatioh I — i Yes, at Fort Langley. • < v a- .: »'* . . 933' What extent should you say ?— Perhaps several hundred square niiled. 934. What sort of cultivation ; would it grow wheat ?-^lt nlight grcNf' wlMitt^ ««'vh 935. Is it as good as the southern portion of Vancouver's Island?; — Not so - >'' good, i should think; it is a more moist blimate. ■ > , 936. It is not so good in point of olimate?^— I should think not. *''^'»'^»^ ^ 937. Mr. Charles FHzwilliam.'] Is not the drought at the southern eiid'*bf . Yancocvf^r's Island, rather a drawback to cultivation in the summer time)— " I am not able to speak to Vancouver's Island. ' * *• ' 938. Is the country round Fort Langley of the same character as that betwMA= ' ;*' ^X.! ■f'\- of ■ .. .■^.. . ■■■■«.:,, . SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 57 .*'' J , vV ■•■//■. *'K. :.i^--' mi ' ;'-5\- ■ ■A, ^1- %.. i! t 58 MINIJTfiS OP EVlDENCift TAI^ BEFORB THE sir 6. 5in|MM. 997. Does that include the Indians in Vancouver's Island T—Yes. ■-, .,. , . 998. Since you have knowtf that country, has that number been on the fl6 Febnuury 1857. increase or the decrease ? —For two or three years previous to 1820 there was a great mortality in the northern parts of the countryj in the thicl^ wood country, from unall-pox and meazles ; that was in 1816, ldl7 and 1818.^ .^ter that period we introduced vaccine innoculation, ' and tie small-pox hiss been unknown in the countjry wnoe then. 999. Since that p^o^ do you believe that tfie number of the Indians l^ive increased or aecreje^ i—l think the number of the Indians in tlie thickwood country has increas^. ' ',V . .' ; 1000. Take them as a whole?— In the prairie country I tUnk they have ' d<;er«BMd owing to wars and small pox. ;J 1001. Bv wars you mecm wars among themselves?— Yes. loos'. Mr. £ that is the thickwood country. ' 1004. To what do you attribute the clifference which you state to have existed in the number of the Indians ; the nuniber you say has not duninished in the thickwood country, and has diminished elsewhere? — In the thjckypod country they are. piQJfe under our own cax^ under our own eye ; we have a. certain cimtrol ojrer them ; among the pKdrie tndiims we liave no contirof. ' 1005. Do you mean that there are not wars between themselves in the thickv^ood country ?— There ajje no wan, and these is no loss of life arising \ from wars. There has been no nnaU-pox ; the country has been healthy, ^d the means of living, if not v»y abundant, have been suffident. 1 006. To what extent have you been able to prevent the introduction of spirits among the Indians i — Spirituous liquors have never been used as a medium of barter for furs, within my knowl^gC. 1007. What is your system with regard to me Indians in connadon with' the fur trade ? — Our mode of management is this : the Indians are usually outfitted from the establishment in the fall of the year with such supplies as will enable them to get through the winter in comfort and make their bunts. 1008. How do you pay them for the furs which they brii^ ? — ^We pay them by barter entirely : money is not known in the country; they do not. know money ; it is a barter trade on a tari£F of very old standing, varied froin time tp time according to oiioumstances. & t ; ^^^1009. Do you ever encourage tiiem to resort to agriculture under any dr- ctwistances, when it can be done?— Always; we have encouraged them by ^A£Mi;y'^'AmL -^.^-.•, SirO. SELECT OOMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 59 1018. Ih what ivi^-- ia^jvstikfe adttiniBtered in that countiy whi^h is wider Yovr control? — ^As nearly as possible fuxiording to the laws of En^and; we nave a very competent legal officer, who fills the office of recorder at Bed River s6 February Settlement. ' , , ; lot 9. Supposing an outragiB' ttkte place in a distant part of the ootintry, wluit wi|>paiB ? — ^^e case wo^d be tried probably at Red ^ver or at Norway House. 1030. How can that be done ; when a murder, for instance, takes place in a very distant jtfrt of the country, what is th«n done ?-^ln one case three parties who weife'cbnoehied'td a'mlirdier weT^ temdved to Canada fo!^ trial, all the way firpm MackensdefS lUver, at-Kr6atd!fficdty and great expet^ ioizt . I inkpp^ in Very dbtant jf^trts of th^^ coUntry yt)u adtnitalsUbr justice ai best vOU mily ?— In many instances w6 haV« brd^ht cases to Red River, where the partite have been re^ilariy trifed 1^ jttry. ~ 1022. For minor offences what prOce^ngs.do yOu adopt practically r^-^, The Indian is reprimanded and hdd ftl dis6iy6Ur for some time. •" > ^ 4 1033. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] Will you fflustrate that ttnswei^ by givmg a case vi^Ch occutifed'at NorwSjr House' i^ntly ?>*^me Indian lads- broke into one of Otir stores ttud they "Were regvtforly tried, (tnd two of them were tran^)orted tiota their owil district 300 mUes off to' ahother dwtiict; that was the entire punishment; it was, in fact, no punishment; they were also severely repri- manded. ■ ' ••"., ^' '..,.■ ,. . • , r 1024. CAa/rman.] What system do you ad<^t in the Way of preserving dis- dpUne and proper subordination among your own officers, scattered over this v&st 6ttent of country, at the different points f-^I do Itot know that there is any particular dtedpline; we genisfally (contrive to have respectable men; oUr officei^"' ''.--■ ■-.j^! ''J it^ -ji' ,-^'ih..ii:::^¥t^i^ ' '' ,. 1030. What is the date of that arrangement ?— That arrangement, I thhik, , * «tvas entered into about 1839. . *i J031. What are the terms upon which it was made; do you pay a rent for mat land ?~-'nie British territory runs along inland from the coast about 30 ".' miles ; the Russian territory runs along the coast ; we have the right of navi- gation through the rivers to hunt the interior country. A misunderstanding existed upon that point in the first instance ; we were about to establish a E)st upon one of the rivers, which led to very serious difficulties between the ussian-American Company and ourselves ; we had a long correspondence, and, to guard against the recurrence of theso difficulties, it was agreed that we should lease this margin of coast, and pay them a rent ; the rent was, in the first instance, in otters ; I think we gave 2,000 otters a year ; it is now converted into money ; we give, I think, 1,500 /. a yealr. 1032. Mr. Charles FitzwilUam.] What otter is that?-^The land otter from the east side df the mountains; we now pay 1,600 /. a year for the use of this margin of coast. • ''' >"'' ^ , 1„ 'r 1033. Cikairman.} Is it a lease for a term of years?— I think tii? term was originally 10 years. r 1034. Mr; Kinnaird.] Have you the whole care of ii, or are there Russian - officers in the territory ?— We have the entire care of it. ,, »8S7- iblB. In ^'iu] 0.2j. ,'.i-^ -mn i:-* ' ' '^'. ' i;';- h*^' Sir O. Simpion. a6 Fcbruwj 1857, ^W: •:-'f M «s .^{jf-- ■■'M-^: i--':iii- '" Vfhl".'' :t'. .': ^\ '•'V-. 60 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 1035. Mr. Edward Ellice.] That was maintained through the last war, was it not, in order that there should, be no disturbance among the Indians ?— Yes. 1036. Chairman.'] Was any inconyenience sustained before this arrangement, was teade with regard to the mani^^ement of the Indians, inasmuch as it was fouhd that spirits were introduced among them by parties competing with one another for the fur trade? — Yes, there was a great abuse of spirituous liquors. 1037. Was that the main inducement to you and to the Russian C»57- liquor goes there. 1 050. Mr. Edward EUke.^ Is it not tl ^ct that that is one of the districts into which mirits do not go at all ? — No spirituous liquors have been sent northward of Cumberland to my knowledge since 1822. 1051. Eitha* for the Company's servants or for ihe Indians? — Not for any* body ; neither for officers, servants, nor Indians. 1052. Mr. Gordon.'] Then you presume that the Committee^of the House of Commons were misled by the evidence before them ?— Decidedly. 1053- It luu> b^ii stated to me by officers in the army who have travelled in those parts of the country where the Company have stations on the Sagqenay Biver, at Chicoutimi, for instance, that though liquor was not traded with the Indians for furs, yet at the time the bargain was concluded a certain quantity of liquor was always given to them as a present ; does it app^ to you that that differs in anytUng but name from making spirks a portion of the trade ? — I tiiink it very likely that on the St. Lawrence, where we are surrounded by opposition, that may have occurred. Where we have opposition, we must, in order to get furs, do as other parties do ; but we never sell liquor. Liquor has never been used as a medium of barter. We are opposed on the St. Lawrence by every shipmaster and every pilot and fisherman. 1054. The greater portion of your European servants, I presume, come from England or Scotland ; they are not bom of white parents in the country ? — The greater portion of our white servants are Orkney men ; there are a few Highlanders, and a very few Shetlanders ; a large proportion of our servants are half-breeds. 1055. With your Indian servants what sort of contract do you enter intot how long is their term of service t — Merely for the trip ; merely for the summer. They are sometimes employed as express bearers going with letters, and they are frequently employed as boatmen, mixed with the Company's servauts and with the half-breeds. 1056. Is there any provision made for your servants in case of sickness or old age ? — There is no provision made for them. They are paid liberal wages, and . > ' i^'t > our servants very frequently save large sums of money for their walk in life. •'- ;V''v They generally leave the country before extreme old age comes on. ^.x^'Mi;'.^: 1057. But there is no regular provision for a person who becomes disabled in .'i^;. :-':'' ■ your service ? — There is no provision. ., : /; ^V^'- ]0*;_: 1058. That happens, I suppose, not unfrequently from accidents ? — It does '■.'"'':■■%■':; ''\A happen, and it frequently happens, that the Company, after their return to Eng^^ ^'.■':'':-sr-^:-'-y,-^- '■ land, aUow them a small pension. C .; ' 1059. Mr. Edward Euice.] Have you ever known, in any case which was , '>' 'r deserving, a small pension refused? — Never. ' •; 1060'. Mr. Gordon.] I suppose this can hardly be considered as administrar *, ' tion of justice : I find that in Mr. Alexander's Simpson's " life of Mr. Thomas ' ' Simpson," at page 427, it is stated that the Company has the invariable rule of - •' ' ' ' avenging the murder by Indians of any of its servants, by blood for blood, with- ;,!"'. out trial of any kind. Is that the case ? — We are obliged to punish Indians as ) vi^J^^ a measure of self-preservation in some parts of the country. j^,^v , :: '\ 1061. And without any form of trial r — We seldom get hold of them for th^. • f ;, . purpose of trial, and they are usually punished by their own tribe. I scarcely :v . know a case, there may have been perhaps a few cases, in which our own ser- " .: vants have retaliated ; but the Indians are usually punisheil by the tribe to -I , which they belong. 1063. Mr. Gr«g-«on.] What mode have you of ascertaining the population of the Indians? — We have lists of the Indians belonging to various posts; we have compared and checked them with the report of the Government officers who went to Vancouver's Island some years ago, as regards the tribes to the west of the mountains, and with Colonel Lefroy's lists, as regards those on the east side, -. . ' * and we have arrived at this estimate of the population. 1063. You say that you fit out tlie Indians— is that only for the hunting V , ; season ? — They do not require any outfit for the summer. ,, j ' ' ''fc • ;■ •^, 1064. Do they continue throughout the year to be provided for by the ^■0,25. ,;v.(5\'^f' ■;:;. :..v.v^''V-'- ** 3 ;if^- ■,■-■■■■• "r -^ "^*^- '■■■•■ ■■- ■■ Company ',','•■" r/->. ,«.,'■■ i " "t ■ pi's'' ■■ ' .- ' "■' '-''■=. ■Ji"'^ i •--"--■■ ■ * j. ,-■ ■.''■-,"■■•'.-■.-'■'/ ^;" '"j 5" ''''^K;^ 'l .(' Mk .•^V ^1 '^■' ■x^iK^P'^i m 6f ( ' him UTEB/ OF BViDBNCE. tiAiUiN BSFOftB THE I'M Sir G. StMjpMN. Company in olothh)K>-~-YflB.; that is to aay, an Indian does not. Jraquire European clothing ; he usually has blankets and a coat. a6 VAnuxy 1857. >10D5> Do they dinend upon jnou for thdr sui^xxt throughout the year j-~ Entirely, except such as they provide themselves with skins. They are very firequenUy clothed in skins » rabbit ddns and leather } indeed, numy of our own servants are clothed in leather. 1066. 'Hit. Kiwmrd.'] You stated .1 just now the population in rough $ -vuxuld you have any objection to g^e in to the ConuButte» a copy-, of the estimated census of the population which you have made. ^ There «.« some other parts ^ can you give us your census, of the Red River population ; you have got it, I presume, in detail?^-! think I have; I am not certain^ I took these notes previously to leaving Canada^ 1067. i think I heard you say that one vessel or more enters Hudson's Bay fat the supply of the colony r<^We usually employ two ships to Ywk } one ship to Moose, anid anoUunr to East Mdine. . . io€8. May ^ps came and trade at York or Moose Bay, jif they choose^ on their own account ; wonU every iadlity be given for ouier ships besides the Cranpany's ships earning r— 'Not to of^pose mpany's store at the Red River, so as to supply the demand there r— We keq> in stcnre generally a two years' supply of toe most essoitial articles of trade, to guard against the possibiUty of loss by the wreck of our ships, or the burning down of our establishments. 1071. Are you not aware that you do not sufficiently supply the Red River Colony with goods? — I think the Red River Colony is ustvdly sufficiently supplied. .!- 1072. I thought that a great caravan annually went down, and got their goods from the United States at St. Louis? — Yes; a caravan goes taking buflbk) robes for sale in the United States, and cattle for sale, and bringing back tobacco in some cases ; they likewise smuggle liquor into the country, and there are other supplies which are to be had cheaper from the Umted States, than ft a England. 1073. Ml*. Edward Ellice.] With regard to the traders, cannot the traders at ■■J Red River get out whatever they like in your ships by Hudson's Bay ? — Any- tldng they like except liquor. We object to become the freighters of liquor. 1074. And the traders at Red River may charter ships on- their own account, so long as they do not interfere with the fur trade? — ^Yes; they have never chartered a ship yet, because they get their freight cheaper through the Com-< pany than they can by charter. ^1075. Mr. Bell.'] Have you never refused to take goods for any of the traders of the Red River ? — I think on one or two occasions we may h^ve done ' •''' ' ^ ^ ; perhms on one occasion. I am not satisfied of that. > ", ■> 1076. Mr. Gordon.'] Was that in the case of a Mr. James Sinclair ? — Yes. 1077. Mr. Edward Eliice.] That was when it was in contemplation to inter- iere with the fur trade ?---Yes. itl 1078. Mr. Lowe.] Will you state what the case was with respect to " Mr. James Sinclair ? — There was some objection. ' . 1 079. What did he want to do ?— We object^ to bring out goods for him at r'^-'r '-- ;■;■ ,. one time. •'i''4:V>^.A.^^-^'vft5xi#if<*v:v-v^in?»j*fH^1^ ■■> •^• ; - them in the fur trade. W' ?^ : - " ' ^^2. Mr. Kinnaird.] The Company does not oppose a passive hinderance to the entruice of goods or of people necessarily ? — Not at all ; we take their goods :"' out on freight. 1083. If I wanted to bring a mechanic into the Red River, couldl dp S9?t- Decidedly ; we should a£fbrd him a passage. «iV f^aw 1 f^-'l ,^-/\d : t vi 1084. Then the Company would facilitate the entrance of free labourers of r3 . : ' good character who should pren^t tb^ps^ves, by giving them a passage ?— %'-';^'' ""■' '■''"':' Unpaying. ■■,-' .■', i 1085. Allowing them to have the benefit of the Company's stores upon the ■;'f'i=y''^:^' •-!•.'■-"* terms fi <:*• ^-V U ;$M,;j5yi' "^ H \yt''.'-''?''^"'J, . !r. ■ -* , 'A: '*fc 'f' ■'■' ««>cfttil.V,^.kt«'Akk,' Jv(Bvi*i-.>,iiia-/*^ m SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY C50MPANY. 63 r. ■•i'>i,'- ^Vf.'Jri !<::;*' :■■ •i>^: terms of the Company's servattts?— No,'n■'-• 64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. Edward EUice.] You have possessory rights, I beliere, under the -Yes. 1117. That ia the interpretation which VQU giv trade," that it gives you a right to the land? — We 1108. treaty ?- 1 109. Mr. Roebuck.] But has pot Oregon heen given up by treaty ?— By tint treaty our Dossessory rights are retained. 1110. What possessory rights have you r — We have various ettablishments ; pasture grounds ; hunting grounds. We claim very large possessory rights. 1111. Mr. Edmard Eiliee.'] Have you not also the free navigation of the river? — Yes. 1 1 1'i. Mt. Roebuck. 1 What do you m^an by possessory rights ; d^ you mean rights under the qharter ?— Rights as British subjects previpusly to the treaty. IH3. Had you possession of land ?— We had possession of laAd. . ' 1114. How did jrou acquire it ?— Under the licence to trade, 1115. But that 18 not possession of land ? — Yes, under the licence to trade we had various possessions in the country. 1116. Do you understand that a licence to trade give^ you possession of thp land ? — We understood so. ive to th? words " a right f^^ fe conceive so. 1118. In fee-simple i — I do not say under what tenure, but W9 consider that it gives us a right to the land. 1119. ^ ^^^^ when you received by charter from the Crown a monopoly to trade over certain portions of territory, you believe that the whole of that territory was ceded to you ? — No, not the whole of the territory that we trade over, but the territory that we bring into cultivation. 11 30. How much land did you bring into cultivation in Oregon? — ^1 rieally cannot tell. 1 1 31. Did you bring 100 acres r-^Five thouscnd acres, > ;j s^Vi 11 33. Into cultivation r — Yes. ► *^ 1133. And those are all the possessory rights which yqu have? — We have various establishments all over Oregon ; we have them in various parts of the Colnmbia Riyer and Puget Sound. 1124. Mr. Edward EUice. ] Are you not aware that in addition there is the Puget Sound Company, who also have those rights reserved under the treaty ? —Yes, that is an ofibhoot of the Hudson's Bay Company ; an agricultural esta- blishment formed by the Hudson's Bay Company, or parties connected with qr interested in the Hudson's Bay Company, encouraged by the (Government of the day. ^1135. Mr. Kiwiaird.} I gather from your evidence, that in stating the number of people whom you employ, you do not consider the Indians who hunt for you to be your servants ? — We do not. 1126. Is not the Company pledged to them by payments in advance ?-*- Decidedly ; that is to say, an Indian to make his' hunt must be provided with certain necessaries to enable him to live during the winter ; he requires a gun ; he requires ammunition ; he requires blanketting. 1127. Are they not to all intents ^nd purposes your own servants hunting for you, for which you pay them in advance ?— There is no contract ; there is an understanding that they will pay us if they can< If the Indian is sick, we lose the outfit. 1 128. You make him payments in advance; then you settle with him after the hunt, and in the event of any illness, or sickness, or of old age, you under* take to provide for him ? — We consider that a dead loss. 11 29. What provision do you make for the instruction of these Indians ? — In the different parts of the country favourable for settlement we always cucout rage missions ; but in many parts pf the country it would be impossible to collect any body of Indians ; the means of subsistence are not suflScient to do so, 1130. As the missions extended would you grant assistance? — DecidecUy; ive are anxious to improve the condition of the Indians. ;M'; jf >R .-^ 1131. What grants in aid are given for the education of the half-breeds and the Indians ? — We give no grants in aid. The hidf-breeda are quite in a condi- tion to pay for themselves; the inhabitants of the country; the heads of families. , -^ 1 132. And the Indians ? — ^They are brought to the missions. ' * > M- ^ 1 133. In fact, ypu think they are able to take care of themselves, and you make no grants in aid for their education ?— No. . 1134. The '/■€ :/... :iH/.-r-:S- A: ■a. ■^:- v] II drci a in! prov Indii Rain 11 jecti II The] Then undei »»^ thousi "3 are fo have ] count] 114 respec 114 tering Wean blishm council 1144 »M5 andoth was a I but our countr 1146' bank bank; to any pay the 1147 Red Rii and ap at 60 di 1148 interest their m your tei of it; i H50. ezclusiv 1151. 1152. chief fa Compan now spe In the : is the g( »I54. i'55. 50 mile! 11.56. fact is til 0.25. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THB HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 65 rthe Blits; ; It*. ' '^ I tHi?. . mean ' «aty. trade $h% to i !r that (■ poly to )f that B tracl« le have of th© .., •.# e is the »4 treaty ? ■>?*>;■, al esta- y with qjr ;ii . ing the ?. j ho hunt , .;m";,:. val- ance ?— ■ *^a led with Bf iaguu; hunting ?*iii there is? V sick, wo":i ( im aftey ■- u under- >^'i dians ? — '■ rs encou-' ssible to to do so, ecidedly ; eeds and a condi- heads of , and you 1134- The .J. 1 134. The barter of ardent spirits, rou sidd, was never aDowed under any Sir a. ifaqwon. drcumatances ? — Never for furs. In tne Saskatchewan it is necessary to give a small quantity of spirits to the nain Indians, as an inducement to bring in *6 Pebnury 1857. provisions, otherwise they will not do so; these are principally American Indians. A small quantity is likewise given to some of the Indiuis at the Rainy Lake, who supply us with dried sturgeon and wild rice. 1 135. Have any ordinances or rules been passed by the Council on the sub« ject of ardent spirits ? — Yes. r 1 136. Can you put in copies of your rules with respect to ardent spirits ? — The most effectual rule is not to introduce the article. 1137. Have you no written minute from the Council? — No, I think not. There can be very little spirit used, inasmuch as the whole importation it. under 6,000 gallons. ,f' 1 138. What is the amount of ardent roirits imported in the ships ? — Four thousand nine hundred and some odd gallons. 1 139. How is !t distributed in the territory ? — ^Two-thirds of that quantity are for sale to the inhabitants of Red River, who would otherwise distU. We have had great difficulty in preventing them frc^ e|tabU»hing distilleries in the country. , ^ . X r 1 140. Are the Company's regulations, to yoiir knowledge, violated in that respect r — I think not. 1 141. Have any of the officers of the Company been called to accotmt fo - bar- tering ardent spirits where it was not necessary ? — No, not that I am aware of We are so decidedly opposed to the use of spirituous liquor in any of our est»,- blishments that no officer would venture to act in opposition to our desire. 1 143. I think you said that the government of the couniijf yiaa ^^sfa^d |q, a , council ?--Yes. ^^ ,, v * . „ ^-O^M^itf^i^-S ->^»^'^ 1 143. Are the transactions secret? — ^Not at all. <>,S,^^^..';^'^xi^¥^i'^''fiV'^'' '<■ -^-^ 1144. Are minutes kept ? — Yes. '''''.ir ,^"'^?.'' :■ ^! '.';.-"■';,}; '''[ ,• .' 1 145. And is it open to the public ; may anybody have access r— AU crim;i.;£.^ and otiber legal cases are tried at Red River, and are open to the public. Tliaxu was a trial by jury last year at Norway House which was open to the publ' ■ ; but our own deliberations with reference to the management of the trade oi' thri country are not open to the public. 1 146. Is there any bank out there for the use of the servants ; any savings bank or any place where they can deposit their savings ? — We have no saving-^i bank ; but the Company allow the interest of the day, f think it is four per cent^, to any parties who may choose to leave their money in their hands, or they will pay their balances, as they accrue from year to year, as they may desure. 1 147. Is every facility given in that respect at the dilBerent posts? — In the Red River Settlement we have gold, silver, and copper as a circulating medium, and a paper currency. That paper currency is redeemable by drafts on London ^ at 60 days. 1 148. If any of your servants at the different posts wanted to place money at interest, you would allow them four per cent, upon it? — If they ch > , V ' hidd ? — Our counsel in this country recommended that lease.< ,J#::'t}|:|:'- ■'iiitH.-lfc yon-know why-?— No. •- -sn-.. ?^ .- • -u : ' •1iit%??; >i65. Who granto the leaser— The Company ; generaUy the governor of ,-,-'■■".■'■,''• '^i'i'- Ac (Bstrict. '* ■ ^'^^■% 166. Under the fled of the Company ?--4Jnder the seal of the Company. .; '/^^ . 1167. ilave you a seal of ttie -Company out there?— Yes, as CSovenfuM^in- '::-:-■,':■'•-■ v;:,\* chief: ■p..-.'^ •-""■-/ i\i€ii. Has the Company in London any legislative power ; can it make laws ; • 1 for the territory ? — It gives instructions with r^ard to the mode «f conducting ' the bui^ness. /> ^# 1169. Tbere is no^I^ ;>i ,|k^ i^ subject of the laws, I would beg to refer to the recorder. \._ I M^^^t I "10. Mr. Edmtird^ioe^ Is it not the case ^t the directors in X^ndon ; , " have the supervimon of the acts of the council ? — ^Yes. UasI ?«:?|-; ni^^i-fm \; : ■ 1171. Mr. Zoiw.] The Governor is the Executive?— -Y^iv ,%:^Ws»r ^^■':i:",*«l2li 172. All over the territory?— Yes. ^Al^4^■;*;,"iii'':wv,;L '.i^y ^ :^ II 73. There is no l^^tiye power at aU, as I undentand ; thi^i^^iii no po^er . t a'i9Btii74. You do not TOMse Statutes 9tdl?---'No. • • ;, n75. 3Do you make Ordinances?— No, we have never had oecasion to m^e c Ordinances ; we hiave passed certain ftesdlutions of Couiicil. '\bbij-n'j6. Are they considered binding in the nature qf laws on the inhabitants •-: (irf the territory? — 'fhey are principally in reference to pur own trade; the . . laws are administered as near^ as possible in accordance with &e laws of X V £ng|land by ttie recorder of the country, and the late irecbrder is now on lus * ., way to Ixmdon, and wttl be forthcoming in Ae course o 1^'% 1 177. "Sphere do tlidse 16 ^ibtdrs, who form Itoe council, live r— AU over the ■ *''mintirtr; ' ■■ "■' ■ ■■ " -^ -: . ■ 1178. Are they summoned every year to meet? — A sufficient number assem- -^ :_.:■'■- 'blef for tlbe putpbse of hddlng a counca every year. 'lM''^§i^:^W)^'^^]'^:''-'-'\ .... 1179. Where do they meet?— At Norway House. ,^itm- 1180. At what time ? — ^Generally about the lOdi, or I5th, or 30th of June. 1181. Mr. Bett.'j WuA nuqiiber is considered sufficient?— I think seven 'I .tutors with the Governor. ' 1183. Mr. XoiM.] Does the public ever attend the discussions pf this »^> eoancil?-~No, never : the public would be our own servants. 1183. Mr. JK«iMi«'(/.] There is a council at Red Rlverf— Yes, at Assiuiboia, ' K iiirhere the recorder resides, and where the white jpopulation is aasemble4i '^' ' . 1 1 84. Mr. Leiwe.'] Has the recorder a council r— oTes. I0) 1185. What does that consist of?-^Certain inhabitants of the colony. I thhik there are 10 or 12 ; the clergy, the Roman Catholic and F^testant ttshops, the principal inhabitants of the settlement. 11 86. By whoo) are they selected? — By the Company, on the recommenda- tion of the governor of iShe country, 01* the application of any of the parties. w^j.yit.' Adderley^ Does the GoveMor-in-chief sit with the council himsetf'; is be a member off the council? — Yes; he is the president of the council, and the recorder'is the law officer. 11 88. fbBjnembers g^^|h/B council are nominated by him r— He suggests them. "'■""'■ M,;,'.^. ,:■■-.■'■ ^ ■^^- ■..^-j:- :.-■,.... .^. , . 1 1 1 89. Mr. He//.] Is tfcere a recorder ipdependent of the Governor?-— Yes. 11 90. At the Ited River and at Norwiyr House also t— -Ko ; the recorder of Red River goes to Norway House. ' " • ' ' ^ "^ '■- ' ' ' '' 1191. Mr. SELECT CC»4M1TFEB ON THE HUDS(»«'S BAY COMPANY. 67 ''.' V, •;* ■M)'M.' iao8. And that would be the only payment which I sh( laog. Thatv«tnkid'BetcitibeCk)mpany?Mr^; 5«. ih^tipiirt'oftliecountryt and 7 f • 6 <^. in another. 1310. 1 should have no other impedimont, either in the way of payment or in the wav of restrictive regulation to my buying land there?— None at all. ' ; 131). Anybody, from any part of the world, could, by pajrihg 5 5. an acre, purchase any quantity of land at the Red Biver Settlement mm the Company? —Yes, I beUeve so. 1313. Mr. Roebuck."] The Ck)mpany sell that land, you sayf-^-YeSi ;^,^, 1313. By what right do they sell that land?— By the right which they hold linder their charter. 1314. Does the charter give you land?— We bfclieve so* '-^\. ^ > =vi*iri J- ,, 1315. Do you know the words of the charter? — No. 13 1 6. Are they not u licence to trade; to hunt? — No; I think thfe charter gives us a right to the land. , »;v 1 -t fi <■ ■ * v • , , 1317. Mr. Orogan.] In thft ev«St &? a j^i^dn coming from England, for instance, and puruiasing land, as you say, at 5 «. an acre from you, is the land 0.U5. I jj!...-'- X'-'-'-^'-'i ''■'■'•"■■,•■•'■.■■ . conveyed :*;•■ 1191. Mr. Lowe.] Have you any magistrates, justices of the peace? — We tih G. Simptm. consider all our factors as ma^tratefr. . ''' ■gif), 1 193. Do they hold any commission fitnn the Croiip, or from the Governor ? «^ F«brotry 1857. —Their commission as £^u^rs is understood to answer the purpose of a cbiji^- missionasmagistratesiu:} *f ^ , .......s«s>i -^^Hj/Wi j-^f-i^^-xj^'^^ 1193. Have they power to imprison, aiiH to' deode any mUifei'l— We have .; ; '^'' • never had any case of impruonment. , ^ .^v^y v^^ . 1194. Mr. Groyan.l Dines the Charter specially^ coo^^K ;^ .fhe^ Gompat^. a r '"7. pbwef' of goveminant, such as, we are nowsp^ddog 0^ ntaidiy, at iiiatparia(wmg parties, or is it only* Ucence tQ trade?— Ijaji^l ^^ lo V^^;ipiyij» f charter. 1'^ .!5**^M'^tS**iKs^^-*f«r.fV^'^ Ti]95. Have yoa it vd&yot^t^—llunFcr noli. . > " .:; 1196. In point of fact, if an English jettler was to go out to Ae Re^Rnre^ district and s^tdeion a portion of land there, without any reference at all to the Governor of that dirtrict (you say it is tiie recorder in that district), could you remove him ? — We have never yet removed anybody. 1 197. Bat could you remove him?— We have never had occasion to examine Jiittotiie question. ': J 1 198. Has the question never been raised? — Never. We have never removed i^yman. 1 199. Mr. Adderley.'] But is it your opinion tiiat you have the power ?*-^r do niot fcaow. I am not dear that we have. Squatters throughout the United States and in Canada are allowed to remain on payment of the established price of land. 1300. Mr. Roebuck.ylLO whom is that price paidr-^We have never exacted payment for land in Rupert's Land. v? ; i 1301. Ur. Jdderletf.] Of no kindr-^Of no kind. ^^^'^ V^vWf :^m ,- .: :;v „ ;: 1 303. Has any payment been exacted by the Company from settlers, either ^"% way of a price per acre, or by way of a licence to purchase ? — In cases where oiur own servants, who are free only upon their return to Europe, go to the Red River, we sell them lands. In some cases they have paid for them ; in others t&ey have not, but very rarelv. ; 1303. If 1 wanted to buy land in the Red River Settlement, should I reqtdre limy licence fixim tiie Company to enable me to buy? — ^I should think you vould. Tliere has never been a case in point. > f ;1304. Mr. Edward £Hice.'] Is it not the finet that the Company claim to be the pn^rietors of the soil o£Red River ? — Yes ; we have n,ever forced it ' . 1305. Mr. Addetkjf.'] Has nobody ever paid anything for a licence. to buy land ?— Not excepting in the cases of our own retiring servants, who are bound >u|i» go back to their own country. ■;mm'<^'i^k i1«>i^^foi#-^,-vn^^^ii»* u^^¥ •'■-■ 1306. Mr. Edward ElSce.] As I understand % t}&m Is no ficenoe to buy land ; it is an actual purchase ? — It is an actual purchase. ''^'] 1 307. Mr. Adderley.'] If I wanted to buv land in the Red River Settlement, iipon what terms could I buy it ? — Five shillings an acre. ~ should have to make ? ft : c'' 1 I 68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BBfOBE THE i# ^ Sir O. Stfl^jMOfr. 26 Fabruarjr 1857. •;*?■ 'ill'' conveyed to him in fee-simple, or for any particular term, or uader any deed ? — It is conveyed to him under a lease of 999 years. «^ . :, 1218. Is there a regular form for all those leases ?— Yes. ; .^'' 1219. What are the terms of those leases t — I cannot call them to mind, i^^n I :<30. Have you a copy of the lease wiHi your— No. %:; 1321. Will you furnish one to the Committee? — I wilL o>ii|iJ;^'/ 1 22a. Are tnera any conditions whatever in that lease respecting exclusive rights and privileges to the Company ? — I think there are with reference to trade, as fiir as my recollection goes ; 1 have not read the lease for a great length of time ; we have so very seldom occasion to issue those leases that I do not at tUs moment call the particulars of them to mind. 1223. Then, we are to understand that a settler going from this country to purchase land in the Hudson's Bay Company's territories gets a lease for 999 years, at the rate of 5 «. or 7 «. 6 a. an acre, according to the locality ? — ^Yes. 1 224. And he is also subject to certain restrictions as regards a particular tradf ? — ^Yes ; trade in furs. 1225. Simply as regards the trade in furs ? — Yes. ..■ij^>«- 1226. There is no other limitation of any kind r — No other limitation what- . soever.. 1237. In regard to the eicports, which «uch a settler is permitted to make, is there any limitation whatever on that point ? — None at all. 1228. How do you explain then the case of Mr. Sinclair, and the export of tallow, to which you referred a short time ago ? — I think in his particular case he had traded in furs. .1229. Mr.Bell.1 And therefore because he had traded in furs, you would not allow him to trade in tallow? — No; we did not give him freights. That ,was not approved of at the time by the Company. ,1 ^:i.n30. That was the method which you took to punish him r — I did not take it, but the officer m charge at that time;.ii,.^:u,^, .;^i i.^, u .; .^ . 4;^, u, ^ aAA** , x 1231. I mean the Company ?— Yes. " " ■' '^ ^^v:.v'^i*ii^f%r->^..;i¥;v ■ ;-, 1232. Mr. GroganJ] I will read to you a passage from a pamphlet, entitled , " Canada West, and the Hudson's Bay Company." " Mr. James Sinclair sent in one of the Company's vessels a small quantity of tallow to London, as an experiment. It proved remunerative, and the next year he sent a much larger ,. venture, but this was not allowed to be taken. In the interim, however, appU- ■.'. cation was made to the Company by other settlers for permission to export tallow at moderate freights ; but to this no answer was returned. Subseauently , the Company found it necessary to legisUte on the subject. From the Minutes of CouncU on this subject, published June 10, 1845, and from a letter of the ,. governor of the country, in answer to the apphcation of certain half-breeds to have their position with respect to hunting and trading defined, all of which . documents will be found given iu extento in Fitzgerald's 'Hudson's Bay Company and Vancouver's Island,' we learn that it is the fundamental law of the country, that no settler should trade in furs." Do you remember the transaction relating to the export of tallow ?— I do not remember the particu- lars ; I was not in the country at the time. 1 233. Mr. Bdward Eltice.] Is it the fact, that any trader who was refused by tht Company could himself have a vessel to take away his goods from Hudson's Bay ?— Yes. 1 234. So far as that goes, it is merely a favour that the Company does to the trader ? — Yes. 1 235. Mr. Grofian.] Is there any limitation with regard to the imports which such a settler might make ?— None at all. I have myself suggested to settlers that they should charter a vessel for themselves. 1236. Is any particular licence reqmred for imports by settlers ? — No ; there has been no application for a licence. 1 237. I will read to you another passage, and you will tell me how far it is correct : " Further, that while once in every year settlers are permitted, at their own risk, to import stores, fur traffickers are excluded from this privilege, but that even for this a licence is required." Is that the fact ? — No ; it i" not true. 1238. "Moreover, that while imports to the amount of 60 /. are permitted, they must be purchased only with certain specified productions or manufactures of the settlement, carried away the same season." Are those facts correct to your knowledge ?— The only article of import prohibited is liquor, and the only article ';^%>''::' •*4 . '»ap. lake, is 5;:;^' cport of * ar case '► ' as an there but not true. rmitted, iifactures r»rrect to the only article SELECT coMMrrrsE on the Hudson's bay company. 69 iEfftide prohibited for export is Air ; with tho^ two exceptions, you may import Si^ O. Simp$on. or export anything that anybody requires. 1239. Then how do you explain the drcumstance of these parties not being '«6F«l>n««y»857. allowed to export their tallow ? — I do not exactly eall to mind that circumstance. I was not in the country at the time : it led to a good deal of correspondence ; the thing is not quite fresh in my memory. 1340. Did you know a retired servant of the Company, Mr. Dunnf— I did not know hhn, but there was iBUch a man. 1 341 . In what Mpadty was he employed by the Company ? — I think he was originally a Greenwidi scholar ; a boy from the Naval School at Greenwich, and taken as an apprentice on board one of the Company's ships, and he was after- wards promoted, I think. I am not quite clear as to his posTt.^on. 1 343. He was promoted to what. Did he become captain vf o iie of the ships }. .i^) 1343. Supercargo? — Mate, 1 thiidc. ■■'■''■ 1344. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] How many years ago is that? — A good many years ago. .1245. is it 30 r — About 25 years ago, I think. \ 1246. Mr, Grogan.'] Was he in the Company's service during the time that , yoii were there? — No. I never saw him. 1247. You mentioned that 5,000 gallons of spirits are imported into the country. Do you mean that that is tto quantity of all the spirits imported ?—- That is the whole quantity imported from England. Some of the settlers at Red River smuggle spirits into the country. We are unable to prevent it. fe,' ^ , i 1248. Did you ever hear that Mr. Dunn had published a journal, in reference ^i^''-'\-'^"'''i to his experience in the Hudson's Bay Company ? —Yes, but I do not think I ever saw it. I do not recollect having seen it. Upon the north-west coast of * 'l^i''3 v'': America, I have not the least doubt that spirituous liquor has been very much ;; a], . ^ abused ; that was during the opposition with the United States. f' % ■:; 1249. In 1832 r—Yes. .^i^mi^u^/injii ,i0irf\ AZ^-t.-^, • ''■'■''§ " 1350. You gave us the number of chaplains that v^ere emploj^ed and paid by , ■ D the Company. Are those chaplair^ required to keep school ?— They jyre ? „, ■■if a encouraged to keep school. ^'f'f^ |) House; and at several of the Wesleyan establishments, very large schools . )f ■ .are kept. ,,:.., i^^>^,v-'' 1253. Are they paid for their services as schoolmasters by you or by the ,1/ Missionary Society ? — They are paid by us in md of the mission. A salary is given to those parties in aid of the mission, and they keep schools, according to ; * v the instructions which they may have from the society to which they belong. ' n.' 1354. Do they receive any payment fh)m the scholars who frequent the - lehools ?— I think not. i2,'>5. For what period of time do your servants that go from this country engage with you ? — Generally five years. 1 256. On the average do they return at the expiration of the five years ? — No, 1 think they generally remain ; I should say that six out of eight remain ; they renew their contract over and over again. There are many servants who have been in the service 25 or 30 years. 1357. -A* ^ general average, do they remain, say 20 years with you? — , Perhaps barely 20 years at present. 1258. But they remain a long time ? — Yea, many of our servants remain a long time. Many of our servants remain altogether in the country. They retire from the service, and become settlers at the Red River. 1259. What is the highest salary that the Company pay their servants? — ^ The price of labour has increased very much. It was some years ago 17 ^ sterling, and now it is increased to men coming direct from England on tlieir first engugement to 20 1, ; and it is raised according to their position afterwards. A man from being a common labourer, takes either the stern or the head of a boat; being called the bowsman or the steersman; in that ca^e, he is paid ;'■'' higher according to his capability as a boatman. Fishermen are paid higher ; they ;. . are paid 30 /., 36 /., and 40 /. in many cases ; tradesmen also are paid higher, 0.35. I 3 ia6o. The . 'f ■f.'W pI; .;:&'. >;,w 76 ^wmMm. i Of BVtDENCE TAKE#^ ^^I Tf^i f'T7 Sir a. Siu^tett. 1360. The class that you describe as labowTert axe paid 301. t6 30 /., atad -^— SSLP-^-Yes. ... 36 February 1857. ,ia6i.^ What majT b« the sdajryr.af the superior officei«t— The fiustors and traders hKns an httwest m the txada^. they are partners. ' . ., ia6s. Mt.Kkmaird.'] The 16 faotoint?— ^The 16 factqrs and t}i« S» traden; ^ 1263. Mr. Grogan.'] They are, tu a certain extent, partners in the adveii'i ■■■ttiJte?«-*Y«s« - . 1 364. A witness informed us on the last, diay that, with ngigArd to the biuKMr bMMB^n tiUitrader Of hdict and the Indians, it was all dittne according to a iaASh*r^Ym^-A«tei»(kimiiff.. . . --,■.,...■.■,.,,...,■.;;,. ' 1965. Is lAiar tariff setQed by the couiusil^tiieip^ settled in this oouiitnr.?^TherB is. a tariff o£ very oil tftandhijr; the Ihdian % ttiid the trader perfeotfy understand each other as regards the taim 1 266. By whom was the tariff settled r— The tariff was settled originally by the original traders. It has be«n modified from tiBM to time accord&g td dr- cumstances. 1 ia$j. The existing tariff in its modified form is ratified and carried out by '>'^1he -council ?«4- Yes. It varies in different partsxofthecoiinfeiy. iom 300 /. to 300 /. 1 Orkney labourers, who are extremely ecimomical in their habits^ I speak of those who have bc«n in the country tor a great length of time. rit: i3*|ri. xhey have saved that money out of the wwes of from 30/. to 80 1. a year, and the four per cent, which you allow them for money whiQh they do 'j^iiliot draw?— Yes. 1273. Mr. Gordon.'] I think there is no other settlement of any importance, ' 'llMdes the R«d RiHrei), of whites living under the government, but not in ' "{7:)th6 service <^ the Company, in your tearritory ; of course I do nCt speak of Yaik« couver s Island ?— >There is a small settlement at a distance of about 60 miles from Red River, at a place called Portage la Prairie. '■^p^' 1373. How long has that settlement been established? — Seven or «ight ■ Y.f ^ars. ^ 13741 1475' 1276. -m. Mr. Rikbuck.'] W ereabouts is it ?-^That is up the Assiniboine. That is oktse to the Red River ?— Yes. Mr. GorJl&n.'] Is it in your power to sanction such an establishihent, ti^iJjjjp is it only in the pow«r of the Governor and the Company at home ?-— We ,b '^iirere opposed to this settlement in the f rst instance as being difficult of ' : liiiAiagemettt. It was at such a distance from the seat of Government, that we had not the same control. If offences were committed, there were no coin > BtableiD within reach. There were no means of laying hold of the offenders. '■■^M- i377> What reason made it much more difficult to communicate with it? — > ;^ The distance of 60 miles is considerable. >^^> 1 378. Is it 60 mUes of interrupted river ? — I think it is about 60 miles froifi t Portage la Prairie to the Fbrts (Fort Garry). fifihr \Qjg, And the riVer* communication is not good ? — ^The river communication ^'jf to not good* i^/{ 1 ago. Mr. Charles FiUwilUam.^ Is there no communication by land ?— Therie .;>i ' I -is a communication by laild. ^tn^yi t38t. Mr. Gordon.] Is it in your power to sanction such an establishment as that, or must it be the Governor and Company at home who sanction its ^^ 'fortnation t — I referred to the Governor and Committee, who thought it desir- huH- flj)it! th^ the settlement should not be established; but no step was taken to prevent it. fiM-ii, 1 a«a. They permitted it, but did not sanction it?— Yes. •f'.miAi- 1283. If I went and chose to settle there, might I db so without any opposi- f>w tion ? — Yes; in any part of the territory, so far as t am aWare, it has never .been '■:,^^ '^■•# f^ '*'' '1 ^:H i % ■-r.--- ■ 1 . >[ f i f4 • <}(■ - '^''''- V' >'- ■ k\ ' ■•'*>' •M :,'■ if If -■"Hii: '■y^'f^' t,i ;:■' .«■- Sf:v- 'rfe'- SELECT COUU^Wtm ON THE HUDSON'S BAY CX)MPANY. 71 t;irO p -- tieen objected to. iteide. There has nerer been a camtJuhen applicatuui has been Wr G. Simfun. w« 1 284. Supposing such implication were made, would it be eneottngsd, or ¥* Fe^ary 1B57. diseoiu»ged as you hm^ discouraged it in iS^^h/ii^ ease^^-r-Tbat would be a matter for consideration. I have not prepared myself to anirwer that. 1 2S5. Do you ^dnader th«b your right to iseSi luad i« ^e same in those terri- ;tQri«B which you hold under your chctfter, and in those whiph you hold under n- license to trade ?r-NQ ; we do not connder that ^re haye any right to ^fHi under pur license tp trade. 1)86. Am I mistaken in supporing that you sjud that you conridered your- ,, selves justified by your license to trade, in «elUng land in the Oregpn coun^r irr A tqpecial pjov^on was made hi the trefl^r fpo* sii^iii sale, rei^ecting our possessory righto. ,«, ia87..J|fr. JSfAoaWJ^ic)^.!'^^ to pr^fterty wl^ch the Cprnpany l^ualhr created? — Yes. "■ ''^y'r'/ ■':■•;■■ ^:4>;,,. 1288. Mr. Gordon,'] Whi(^ you could occupy, hut not .iellr— '•We were pro- :C.i''S\ prietors as well as oecupiers. ■ '>*« 1^289. What «re th^ conditions now required of any settler taking a. lot of ; ;v land on the Red IGtiver Settlement ?-^It viras arranged, I thought, that I should .. bring a cmiy of the i^ked before the Committee. 4V'?':|- . if^ 1^90. What is t^ usual price of unsettled land now in Uppor Canadb^?— ^^^ '\^ ''^ 1 cannot speak to that. ' ' '"' r 1291. Y(iu do hot suppose the land, the price of which you have stated to be 5 *. or 7 «. 6 d. an acre, to be better than that in Vp^XMmiUt^-'Qes^^ hot i it is not so good. ' ? y'fy:.-:^ 0., 1292. Are the laws or regulations under which the colony of Red River I '' is governed printed ; are they accessible to the settlers ?'^They are not printed, but they are usuallv posted on the church doors, and the settlers have ca|^ of j^em ul through the country. / 1293. You mean that that is done with any new one»?-rY«s; anything that ; affects the Red River Settlement. ,n - ;- 1294. But how do they know old ordinances or regulatioB8?-<-Thesettlers there are so very few that that has never been necessary. ,.4 1295. M.T. Edward Eliice.'l I suppose there are no newspapers to advertise ' 'them f— No. 1 296. Mr. Gordon.'] Then, in short, they may not be aware of the laws and regulations under which they are living r — The laws and vegulations are so .very Jew that they know them perfectly. '.' v.^ji ,Vii^ 1297. But they are not accessible ?--'fhey are not published^S ''4' '^-^ Mt. Edward EUife] It is a very simple state of sodaty, is it not? 'i". 1298. i-Yes. "99. 1300. Mr. Gordon."] There is no newf^per in the Red Riw colony ?— No. You are aware, I suppose, that a newspapar is generallyithe first thing , . .introduced in an American colony ?— Yes. >;; ' » 50 1 . Has there never been a wish expressed by the settlers of the Red Biver colony to have a newspaper there ? — Not that 1 am aware of. I suggested, ^ .§ome years ago, that they should get up a newspaper, hut they could not get '■".■i|iixyb6dy" to 'take chaise of it. ' '■''^•'''':f':''i'iii^r.r{A,if'%ix'^.^^^- 1302. Can you tell me what is the freight per •teb on goods impoited fi^om London to the Red Riveri*— je.5 a tod, Imid 1 A^or lighterage and stomge, and I, being warehoused ; that is 6 /. ^' 1303. it was lately a good deal hi^er than that, was it n^, 8 /. or 9 /. ?•— No i I think it was lower. I believe there haS'been vyty'little ohange^ 1 304. t have heard it repeatedly sthted, that 4he iciheapest way of receiving < ?«pod8 in the Red River for traders there is to hove them transmitted by New Orleans, and {dong the Mississippi ; that it is obeuper 4han ' thair going by York ii Factory ; do you believe that to be the case ? — ^The freight 4o Yofk is 6 /. a ton. ^ the freight from St. Paul's to Red 'River is 18/. a -ton, (» 16«. the piece -~.4^.lg(i 100 pounds.' ■ '■''■■; '■ ^' - '•*■' ' ' •' ' ■••'' 1305. What is the diat&hde from Hed River to York Factory ?— About 600 miles, I think ; and the freight from York Factory is jlO/. a ton io the Red River. 1306. Mr. Edward ElUce.] With r^fard to that freight, any persons can take •:^f 'the goods as cheaply ai they like?— They ean take them any way they please; ■,,.,.,,>• 0.25. .■i-4'' ■'■i ' '■• .>^. (i.;. we »»>;; 73 MINUT£S OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFCJIE THE Sir O. Sm^mor. we pay that amount Quraelves. We dp not do our o^m transport ; vra usually ■— ^ employ the freighters at the Red River. Different traders do the transport £or a6 Febnurj 1857. US from Yoric Factory to the Red Rirer. 1307. Mr. Gordon.} What is the distance from Red River to Lake Superior ? — Six hundred miles. 1308. You think that the distance from York FacU>ry to Red River is not glreator than from Fort William to Red River ? — It is about the same, perhaps ; but the freight from Lake Superior to the Red River in the transport of the flour vhich I have before mentioned, was 40 *. a piece, or 46 /. a ton. 1309. The route from York Fatitonr to Red River, is not a veiy good one, is it ?<— It is very bad as fiur as Norway House. 131 0. Is it not the case that there have been petitions frvm the settlers in the Red River to have that route improved f— We cannot materially improve it. It is not susceptible oi hnprovement without a prodigious outlay ; such an out* lay as our traffic would not afford. ) >> ^ 131 1. Mr. Beil.'] Has there been a petition ? — I am not aware of a petitioisf We are very anxious that the route should be improved for our own purposes'; but the outlay for inq[>rovement would be more the trade could afford. 1313. Mr. Gordon.] You sav that it is very bad ; do you think it worse, or not so bad as the route to Fort Wiiiiam r — It is not so bad, inasmuch as we can use boats, carrying about three tons, between York Factory and Red River, and the only means ni transport between Lake Superior and R»d River is a small canoe. 1313. I suppose, if the route to Lake Superior could be improved, it would be t^ shortest route from England for goods ; there would be water communica- tion up to Lake Superior ? — Yta. 1314. It would be easier than by Hudson''s Bay ?— I think the roul^ canndij^ be improved sufficiently for the transport of goods. 1315- ^Vhat are the great difficulnes on tnat route which prevent its being improved ?— The depth of water in the river, the interruptipn i^w ^l^ ^^ V fijls, and the sww J^vV iirj;V ^t/ H^^'^? 1316. Is not that the way which the old North-Weift Cbiiijiaby used to carry all thdr supplies for the use of the interior? — ^It is. 1317. Then they must have carried along there nearly as much as you carry fi-om York Factory? — ^No; it was not one-tenth of the transport that we hayi? from York. V; 1318. If I understood tou rightly, you said that the copy of the resolutions; dated 1845, was not authentic ; I have a copy of the resolution with resj^ct to the duties to be paid on all in'ports into the settlement?— That resolution, I think, was disallowed. 1319. Have you reason to believe that the colonists at the Red River are satisfied with the government of the Company there ? — I have reason to believe that they would be perfectly satisfied if their minds were not unsettled by agit»»^ tors \frho have an eye upon the trade. 1330. In short, you think that the a^tation comes frova. without, and not from within? — Decidedly. 1331. In your "journey," to which you have referred two or three tim^ ::■!!.' -..i,..^;.,: before, at pegfe 54 you say, with regara to education, " As to the charges of ' education, four-fifths of them fall on the pious and charitable association just ':j,,ft!^:>;^ mentioned ;** that is the Church Missionary Society ;" while the re'mainlDg % fifth is borne by such individual parents as are able and willing to spare 15 «< . ' *' a year for the moral and intellectual culture of a child." As five-fifths make a whole, I suppose it may be taken that the Co!npany do not pay anything ? — ' No ; those are the agricultural settlers of the Red River, who are in a condition, to pay for their own children. 1333. Then the Company do not contribute ? — Not there { that is under tfaie direction of the biehop. 1333. Is pemican sold to the schools and missionaries at the same price that it is to the Company's servants ? — ^We do not sell it to the Company's servants ; we sell it at a very small margin of profit i there is a great deal of waste, and it ris necessary tu sell it at a very small mar^n of profit, to cover that waste, '/ij^. 1334. Mr. Gurneif.] What do you imagine is the ordinary time which elapses X>n an average between goods being bought by the Company in England and 'tiiose identical goods being delivered to Indians within the Hudson's Bay C01191- ' ". . '■ '■ ■ • ./■■,„ V i- . - - '/ ■ ■ '■' . pany's :-i'-.r. ■ ,, ■i- ,t1 ■: •■M'% >4: ■M-^ ■y^-n,. 1,.,^ ,. . '•■>•■ ■ ■Or. ■■'< ■■■,.' ; .f>i'''/-H>";r ...;i'-i;., ■'■• ;. ■■.*#"; "i'irt/-:M i.^v '•■; re ,. ve lot ;^ ; J*- of ; tst led Dd ^- m^'^[. w a\, 4- tW-. ^/^i SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 73 jMinv's territory ?— It depends upon the locality ; in one part of the country, Sit a.8imp$om. 88, for instance, a part of Mackenzie's River, it occupies seven years ; that is, — 4. from the time the goods are shipped in Londdn iintu the returns are brought a6 Fabruarjr 1857. to sale in England. 1325. Then seren years would be the extreme ?— Yes. 1336. And what would be the minimum 1 — From three to four years. 1327. It ran^ from three to seven yean r--^ Yes. 1338. Mr. KhmmrdJ] You have not told us anything about the nnture of the population in Vancouver's Island?— I know very little about Vancouver's Island : I have not been there since it was established. 1329. Cui you tell me the state ot the population on the west of the Rocky MoiBKtains ; of the Indians there ?— -The iudirin;? are all in a state of warfare in Oregon. In the British territory they are more independent; they have a better position as regards means of subsistence tium OQi the east side of the mountains ; fish is very abundant ; salmon. 1330. Is there no process of settlement ?— None. There are Indian village^ along the coast, and salmon are very abundant, mi deer are very abundmt, and on some of the islands they raise potatoes. 1331. Mr. Ckarlet Fitzwilliam.'] With reference to schools, has any obstacle ever been put in the way of schools being established for the instruction of th«y^^|^ '' Indiuu?— Never. On the contrary, they h«ve been, encouraged. , ,.;^t^:o^~n :> • 1332. Did vou know Mr. Leith, a chief fiactor ?— Yes, Mr. James Leitho;r!|ii^; .' ^ i33(). Can you tell the Committee what those purposes were ?— I think ihe ^'y" promotion of religion in the Company's territories; religion or reli^us y instruction; I forget the precise terms. -r^m^sMi 1337- Mr. Edmtrd EUice.] The VQOunt was 10,000 /., was not it ?—• Yes. h^l 1338. Mr. Charles Fitzmwam.'] Aro you sure that it was not for education, and not religion ?— I cannot speak to the will, but the executors, I thmk, were the Bishop of London, the Dean of Westminster, the Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company, and his own brother. 1339* How has that money been applied ? — ^To the support of this misciiim. 1340. Of what mission ?— The Bishop of Rupert's Land. 1341. But a little while ago you hgibrmed us that the Company paid to thei^^^ Bishop of Rupert's Land a ssSury of 800/. a year r — ^Yes. 1 ^^ j? ' 1342. WhiU; has become of the income of 300/. a year, which is the jnterertffij ?i on 10,000/., more or less? — I am not able to ansn^er the questiou* I.eannot $ state distinctly how the application of this money has been made. 'f«£, 1343. Mr. Lowe.'X You 6ay that it goes to the Bishop of Rupert's Land?-:- \iii\i 1 think it is under his direction. ;v^;j 1344. Mr. G^o^aa.] You spoke of the Company possessing rights in Oregon, ; vrhlch rights were recognised under the treaty. with America 1 — Yea. jj^-^ - 1345. What were those rights ; a licence to trader— "{^i^ were our poafesr r eory rights, whatever they wsv^ v .^asx^M a 4^9ul^'f^ |Ri have given a different interpretation. qv4: 1347. Had you the exclusive right to trade in that district ?—?T)}/|) ;Bc^nQ£^|, licence to trade as we had on the east side of the mountains. ' .,t> '^liu^;.'fS,V4%' 1 348. Do you consider that vou have that right now r — Yes ; our licence to , trade has not expired yet; it will expire in 1869. >;/ !( 1 349. If an Englishman went to that district .and attempted to trade in furs,.;. ,vr do you consider that you would have the power to prevent his doing so? — I ,| {..> think so. 1 350. If an American were to do it, do you think you would have the powey^ to prevent him ? — I think so. :VJ*i. "■K'^, "l" .:.; X' > K^ 1 -■■■'->^ "M /# i .'l.^-' -' '','i ■ Wk ■'..}^\ ■il % ._,/ ..' 1 "'^ ■- ■■*, "si ' >"'. >f^i .. m «1 -t ■% (K/ 0.25. -^%:' r'v»*nrs V, -y J.^ '% m. \m .*■■ i.:'ct\ ■;"*>.• /i'j. lv'it|W*V^^' ■" ■ :,-V' . •.'.Y,. ■•■«« 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ■6 Fbbruwy i«ji7. Sk i6. Si mptom. 1351. Do you think he would be prevented by you ? — I do not know that he would. 135a. Mr. Edward Etlice.] With reference to the council at Norway House, ^ is it not one of the objects of the council to assemble together once a year th^ poKons having charge of the poets in distant parts of Uie country ?— Yes. >353* In order that they may compare notes, and consult together in the a^r^;ate as to what should be done t —Yes. 1354. That is the only time for bringing them together ? — Yes. 1355. 1*he country, I believe, is as large as Europe f— The countay is of pro- digious extent : I have an estimate of the mileage. 1356. Mr. Adderkjf'i Would it not be possible to govern the country by deleg^Bted authoritv at different distances from the centre ; do you suppose that in the general settlement of the whole of this territory as big as Europe, it w(Mild be absolutely necessary always to refer home, on every deteil of management, to Norway House r — No ; I should conceive not. 1357. Is it the case that there is that reference between the government of Bed River and Norway House ?— No. 135H. Is tiliere none whatever ? — No. 1359. Did you not state that the Company opposed themselves to another settlement on the borders of Red River, as being too distant from the seat ai government ?— They did not deddedly oppose it, but they discouraged it. »r^ 1360. On that ground ? — As being more difficult of management. , 1361' Prom its distance from Norway House ^ — No, from Assinibma. Our '^'1^1, and court-house and poHcey are all in the Settlement. .v^ ■', i.i^2. When you speak of the seat of goveniment, what do you mean ?— The sieat of gotCTnmeik of Asiiidbpia^ wUchfoxinsacircuit of 50 miles bythe com- ,^ pips, from the forks of the Red and AsSR^otne Rivers. ., \ ' 1 36'3- Have the itihabitktxts' of the Red River Settlement any inftuence what- soever over the decisions of the council trtrich govern them?— ^TJie princijpal inhabitants of Red River ai;e themselves the councillors of Assiniboia, with the gbvemor. .;/ 1364. When you say that the recorder is governor of Red lUver, do you * pueap that he is ex officio always so ? — No ; he was considered a very fit man to hbld both offices. 13^5.. He was so appointed f — Yes ; he was the recorder originally, and on the redrement of the former governor he had the commission of governor like- >. ^"■', M W M 5^*' n 'W '%*'- '^* 1366. Who appoints his council ?— They are apptnnted by the Company, at ^ ,|he suggestion of the governor, or on the application of any of the inhabitants. 1367. But is it an appointment by the governor, or an application by the inhabitants r-r Both. The Company is willing to appoint anybody who may be ooiuidered a fit person qtialified for the office. '^fi^' 1368. What is the name of the present ncorder ? — Francis Johuson. He iii^PPIB a Queen's counsel in Canada. itf i V 1369^ For what length of time are liie members appointed?— The;^ id' no limitation of the time. ^ 1370. Are their appointments for life ? — No ; there is no fixed period ; they are appointed councUlors. 1371. During pleasure ? — During pleasurt^. 1 372. Are the council at Norway House appointed in the same way ?-^At Norway House the factors are councillors under their commission. lur 1373. Are they appointed during pleasure? — No; it is while they hold ihe ' conunission of factor. 1374. For the whole length of the tenure ? — ^Yes, the tenure of office»?p'f'Vt ', ^^^■'■■' 1375. Mr. Edward EUiee.} That is under the charter ?— It is. ^v ^ : ; 1376. Mr. Adderley.] Is your appointment an appointment for life ? — No; ■■>0i$M^ appointment is bythe Governor and Committee. 1 -j^^ 1377. Mr.Roehuck.] I think it is a double government. You have a govern- ment in England and one in Hudson's Bay, have you not ? — The Governor and „ . .Company are the superiors ; they have the supreme direction. '':'"'j',^^!:' 1378. The Governor and Cumpany in England appoint the Governor in :-■>■ ^A ■:•!«<- 1379. According ,?.■„ m %'-■. «,-■■ JAR. ■ ■ 1 y.'k :*^.v ; '■ a( '^'^^'■i. \ '-■■■■i>- •: \ A ^i'. ; f'^-*'' ■• ^•;/-. .- ti tl 0: £>■■ -'^ ■- .■^- ifVr" ■■f. ct tb yr CI SELECT COMMnTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 75 1379. According to their will and pleasure, and bis appointment is revoked sir 0. at their will and pleasure ? — It is so. 1— 1380. So that, in fact, the Governor out there is the downright servant of. t6 Ftkrapuy )867' the Governor and Company here? — He is positively thehr servant. . 1381. And what they desire him to do he is bound to do ?— He is. : 1383. Where does he live usually when he gets to that country*' — I have been the Governor for the last 37 years, and I have lived nearly all oyer North America. I have Uved in Or^on, I have lived in Hudson's Bay, in Red River, at York Factory, and in Athabasca. I have travelled the whole country over. 1383. There are no head-qiuurtera of the Government, then, and the talk jtbput tbiB Governor and council is a mere idle statement ? — No. The Qovemor of Asainiboia is resident upon the spot. 1384. I remark that you always allude to your Red .River Govomni^t at Aflainiboia ; did you not just now say that that siinply occupied a circuit ttf ,^ miles by the compass ?— Yes. . ' ' V . ,..'H , fsSs* And the whole country, you have told us, and ihe inap tells us idiib^M as large as Europe ? — Yes. 1 386. So that when you talk of that small territory, it is like talking of San Marino, in Europe ? — (Mminals would be sent down to A^iniboia. I :> 13S7. If a mvurder were committed on the shores of the Arctic Sea, would the man be sent down to Assiniboia ?— Yes, in the first instance. 1388. Have you ever known an instance of a murder on the shores oi the Arctic Sea ? — Not on the shores of the Arctic Sea, but within the i^cctic drde. 1389. Can you state that case to me I — I cannot give all the detaib from S. m^: ^'im.-*^-. -J,', memory. 1390. to-day ?- I39» ;^l' 'fl^ Mr. Edward EUice.] Was that the case which you spoke of before -Yes ; Creole Le Graisse was one ; there were tluree. Mr. Roebuck.! So that hi your long life there of 30 odd years you lunre known three tiases ? — ^That was one particular case ; those three persons were accomplices i they were sent to Canada for trial. 1393. Are those the only cases which you recollect ? — The only cases in the Arctic regions, that I recollect. .1393. How many criminals do you suppose are annually tried at Assiniboia ? — J think the whole of the criminal cases within my recoUection, are but 19 in the,37 years. 1394. And that you call administering justice in that country ? — Yes. ; "' ,1395. We may take that as a specimen of the administration of justice in those countries under the rule of the Hudson's, Bay Company ? — Qf ti^^fibsehce of crime, I should hope ; we claim to ourselves great credit. '^'^''-^ \'^^'y'' 439^. Do you mean to say that in your tenure of office there ^r '^7 years there lias been only in fact 19 criminals in that country ? — I think so. 13)7. Mr. Edward £llke.] Are those serious cases or minor offencesl — Serjouac.s^s. 139SI Ivu'. EoebucA.] Take murders: do you mean to say that in all your term, of office u: upwards of 30 years, there have been only 19 murders committed in the whole of the Hudson's Bay territory } — ^There were 11 people killed in this paiticular case which I am referring to. 1 399. Do you mean to sav that in the 37 years of your government of that country, there have been only 19 murders committed? — 19 cases ; I said there were 1 1 murders in that first case which I spoke of. 1400. I want to ascertain what has been the admin'stration of justice in that country ; I want to know how many persons have been brought to justice ; you tell me 19 i — Since 1821 there have been 19 cases of homicide in which the Hudson's Bay Company's people were concerned ; in 1 1 punishment was inflicted ; one prisoner was tried and acquitted ; one was a case of justifiable homicide ; three accused parties died before being captured, and in three cases there was no evidence to proceed against them ; those are the 19 cases. 1401. Do you say that that fairly represents the state of crime in that country r^ — I do. 1402. Do you mean to say that since 1821, the date that you have quoted, there have been only those 19 cases of murder in tnat country ? — In which the Company's people were concerned ; in the wars that take place in the plains among the Blackt'ec: there a;e ca^es in which we cannot interfere. ^-•^PH: •^v ■ - W-' ■.■^::■.- ■■■•tts' p 'im^ 1403. 1 •'*M-;' 5*-' <'fi''il>. W^ ^:^1'- mi, ■ t'l: .'*!' I ■' -'M'l^.: ■'S*'; /■*)*-'■ .,..«■: :->v ^^ikiy ^ MINUl^ OF EVID^CE TAKEN BEFORE THE aH ■'■'T. : Bw w» AMp'Mk •e toMWjr 1857. Tijvi^,. ,«:*■;■ ^H- ;■, s ■l,' ':r^'' -- -^0 ■-,?i'V4>-«fc; 1^403. I refer to cases over which the recorder hu }ariidictioii ? — Yes. 1404. That if your estimate of the cripie in that country r-^Yes. if^.. 1405. Mr. Edward Ellice.] In short, it is your knowledge ?— Yes, as for ai ' my knowledge goes. 1406. Mr. Itoebuck.'] I have a book in my hand published by you I think in 1847 F-Very possibly. 1 407. How long had you been then Governor of that country ?— Twenty-sereifc years. 1408. And I suppose that in those %7 years you had acquired a good deal of experience r — Yes. 1409. Are we to take this book as the result of your experience of 37 yeant*- — 1 tfa^bik you may. i^- ' 1410. And all that you stated then was your view after 27 years* experience V''K- country ? — No, I do not know that I have materially altered my views in regud | to it. , .<, 1413. I know that this passage has been read to you before, but its matter'li^ has struck me very much, from its poetry as well as otherwise, and I will read it again and ask vou why, if you have changed your opinion, you have changed it: '* The river which empties Lac la Pluie into the Lake of the Woods, is, in mors;' . '^ than one respect, deodedly the finest stream on the whole route. FVoc Fort Frances downwards, a stretch of nearly a hundred miles, it is not interrupted (-,by a single impediment, while yet the current is not Sarong enou^ materialhr ^ to retard an ascending traveller. Nor are the banks less favourable to agricuU,' : ture than the waters ^emselves to navigation, resembling in some measure those' of the Thamea near Biohmcmd. From the very brink of the river there rises a gentle slope of green sward, crowned in many places with a plentiful growth of birch, poplar, beech, elm, and oak. Is it too much for the eye. of pbilaa-£, ; .; thrq[>y to discern, through the vista of fiitur^^, this noble stream, connecting as it does the fertile shores of two spacious luces, with crowded steamboats on its bosom, and populous towns on its borders " ? — I speak of the bank of the river Uiere. 1414. I am going to direct your attention to the river itself; the river itself . was at that tin^ capable of bearing steamboats ? — Quite so. i 1415. Is it not so now? — It is. 1416. And the land was very fertile then, you say ?— The right bank of the f" liver which I speak of, indeed both banks, the Up of the river. 1417. You say, " Nor are the banks less favourable ;" you allude to both banks?— Yes; I confine myself to die banks; the back country is one deep ;; monuu extending for miles. <: 1418. 80 that anybody reading that passage would have very much mistaken the nature of the country if he fa»d thought that that was the description of it ? .' -—Not as regards the banks ; I confine myself to the banks. 1419. Do«s a traveller usually give such descriptions of a country as that?— ^ . ^ ' Yes, I, as a traveller, did so. * 1430. Then we may take that to be a specimen of your view of the country ? '' — You may. ■^'. 14a I.. I will now direct your attention to that portion of the country stretehing round the Red River Settlement Supposing you took the compass 'as for as the boundary line, and struck a circle round, how for is the Red mver Vfiettlemnat from the boundary ^— About 50 miles. . ,,; - . .^ 1433. That would be a diameter of 100 mUes? — Yes. ^'^ ->. 1433. Supposing you took a square, and you included Lake Winnipeg, up to the north, and went to Cumberland House, and you then came down tiie parallel of longitude 105*, making a very large square of 10 degrees of longi- tude and five degrees of latitude, you would nave a large territory^ would not you ? — It would be a large territory. 1434. A good large colony ? — Yes &, W:^ if'J--- m%' "M^i <*?■. ^.^-i^ii: .'HSfi; 1435. Supposing ■I'f Ar iVsfc: W vr> ,'■ -.Ai'ii|;.:?5 ^;iV' ;^fe'i-.^ At-:.. "Vtt:-: "iA:. ' ~ o. r,-.^ir* , ■y.'- ",\. :x w s. 4^ ^';r*; ■ ■;i ««•'!>; SBLECff COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 77 :,.■«*' 1435. Supponn^ that were done, and it were erected into a territonr, uj at Sir o. mmpt«», the end of the United States : do you suj^se that that country coidd be self- supporting ?— I think not. t6 Febnufy 1857. 1426. Why ? — On account of the poverty of the soil ; along the banks of the river I have no question that a settlement might be self-supporting; a population thinly scattered along the banks of the river might support Stem- selves, but a dense population could not live in that country ; the country would not afford the means of subsistence. 1427. That if your view of the country r— That is my view of the country. 1428. You are here to tell us that the country is very Imrren aud could not support a papulation ? — It could not support a lai^e population, and, moreover, .there is no fuel ; the fuel of the country would be exhausted in the course of a very few years. 1439. Why is there no fuel; are there no woods? — No woods; all that prairie country is bare of woods, 1430. And yet I see the country upon this map marked green, and they me that that signifies the woody country ?— Yes, that is the woody country. 1431. Mr. Grogan.] You described the river at the Rainy Lake, in the .'; -« passage read by Mr. Roebuck, as capable of bearing steamboats at the tim©.; , ■;:: that book was written ? — Yes. |l! %-i^^ "' 1433. For about 60 miles of its distance?— Probably about 60 miles. ^ ;'' -: € 1433. I* it in the same condition now ? — Yes ; from the outlet of Rainy Lak«i|' ,; i W to the Lake of the Woods, there are four rapids. . [• '^ ■ 1434. But those r^ids you do not consider would be an impediment to ' '> ;.' ateam navigation ?— Two of them would be, axfdA third rapid, at the establish-'^ : mcnt, would be an impediment. ■*^' 1435. What may be its extent? — It is a waterf^ of about 40 or 50 feet. '^'■- 1436. For a quarter of a mUe, or less ?^The portage formed by this waterfall, is a quarter of a mile. t 1 437. You would then get into the Rainy Lake ; that is navigable, of course ? '■^Yes. , ' ■ 1438. For a steamer ? —Yes. 'i. ?^^ % iWr^>^.^^^j'^?X^^ ^' 4^M- . 1 439. Then I see a series of szKi^ bkd> gofa^ ddwte toV»ar& Wbitew4W^< ff^ 1443. That would be 120 ? — Yes. The river runs from the Rainy Lake dowii^ to the Lake of the Woods, aud from the Lake of the Woods the RiTtt WiottWfe.^ flows down to Ltdce Winnipeg. •"' ^ ■ "^fP^^T . 1444. Is it navigable for that distance ?— Not the R,iver "V^^nipeg. Th^re * are a numb«^ of portages in it, and the river is not navigable except t)y boats. The part of the navigation which is fit only for canoes is from the tUdny Lake to Fort William, Lake Superior. ' ' '/. -■•■'^■V , 1445. What distance is that ?— That is about 300 miles;'^ ''^ * '^ ''^^ ■V''* ' i44(>. Mr. Edward Ellice.1 Are reports of the conduct of each servant sent in by the chief factors and traders every year ? — No ; reports upon the character of the whole establishment are sent in ; if there is anything remarkable it is noted. ' ^^ ''"'^\ ^■"'' 1447. And each chief factor is responsible for the dcindiictdf'tlie servants under him ? — Decidedly. ■>>h:?i' ,::'^^ ■-- ' -■ \ M f -4^*i- ■■,')■.,•. 'jiJTJs^fVjipJiVtf^l.T^N .[i-^. >%■■■ - r 7« BflNUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Zume, 2" He Martii, 1867. 11KMBKS8 PRE8BNT. Mr< Adderlcy. Mr. Brli. Mr. Blsckbarn. Mr. Edward Ellice. Mr. Ctiarles Fiitwilliam. Mr. Gbdatone. Mr. Uordon. Mr. Orflgaon. Mr.Qrogaa. Mr. Qamej. Mr. Percy Herbert. Mr> Kinoaird. Mr. tuiDOudiere. Mr. Lowe, tiir John Pakington. Mr. Ru«buck. Lord Juhn Euaaell. Viacoiint Samlon. Lord Stanley. Thb Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCHERE, in thb Chaib. »,' ■- ^m^< ■~i . -J J.' Mr O. StM|MM. 9 March 1457. Fufe Appendix. ■■.■ .',» '.,/,-. . ..V.'l « ^lij,'i*>.' , Sir Cfeorge Simpson, called in ; and fiirtlier Examined. 1448. Mr. Eiheard Eflice.] YOU were asked the otlier day to liand in a copy of the land deed hj which the Company convey land to settlers at Red River i — ^Yes ; here it is. The leading conditions are, not to deal in fiirs ; not to distil or import spirituous liquors ; to resist foreign invasion, and to promote religious instniction. — (T%e tame wai detivertd in.) 1449. With regard to the Indian Settlement at Cumberland, you were asked some questions with reference to a sum of money of 10,000 /. which was l^ by the lateMr. Leith, who had been in the Company's service r — Yes. 1450. Will you have the goodness to explain that matter ?— The words of the bequest are the llowing : The legacy by James Leith wae "for the pur- pose of establishing, propagating, and extending the Christian Protestant reli- nou in and amongst the native aboriginal Indkins of Rupert's Land." The fund, with the accumulations of interest, now amounts to 13,345 /. 1451. Mr. Roehuck.] What are you quoting from?— The words of the wiU.' ■ 1453. Is that the only statement in the vnll ; does the will say nothing of the means by which religion ia to be propagated ? — No. These are the words : " For the purpose ci establishing, propagating, and extending the Christian Protestant rdigion in and amongst the native aboriginal Indians of Rupert's Land." i/,53. Is that all ? — ^That is all that is said upon the subject. ^v ' 1454. Mr. Edward Ellice.'} I think you stated the other day that the money wail left to certain trustees? — ^Yes. The sum now amounts to 13,345/. Three per cent. Consols. '0^ 1455. Mr. Roebuck.'] That you do not quote from the will? — No. ' "1456. Mr. Edtoard Ellice.] Tlmtis lodged in Chancery, is it not? — ^Yes, it is now in Chancery. 1457. By whom is it administered? — It was committed to the Bishop of Rupert's Land by the Court of Chancery, upon the understanding that the Hudson's Bay Company would add to the Bishop's income a salary of 300 /. per annum, and provide him with a residence. 1458. Which the Company did?— Yes. The executors are, I think, the Bishop of London, the Dean of Westminster, the Governor and Deputy-Governor of the Hudson'^ Bay Company, and his own brother, Mr. William Leith. 1459. They are the trustees by whom the fund is administered ? — Yes. 1460. With regard to the pensions of retired servants of the Company, have you anything to add to your former statement ? — Yes. I was asked whether there was any [>eusion for retired servants. Tliere is a sum of 300 /. a year set aside from the profits of the trade to pension old and deserving oiTicers. To servants and others not entitled to participate in that fund, special grants m' \'f^ <», S 1 .] w^^-' ' i , ^^$^:'.' 1 ^^^K*s;". y ■ ■ *^ 1"' W^^''' ■■- V v^'- ^^^^* V ' B^-'-'!--;-' ' -'t ■ ^ '■:;;;%■-,■_ '- Ui" '•■''tf'--^ ■ v.. ■ :*'!■/' 5 . \ ■ -■■ '^"z^- Hi' ' ^» '--*'■' ■''' P • K ■■:-■■•;■? ^ ■ '■■^::f-:^S ^m^^^m^y: ■'Vk'-if.C> '^^'H'kf^-' :m. c'*S;v [ .> , ■ ■■ m. * tH di .-''■; re ■ ft 'th -/•'of ")?'■/ %*^- -.&.^ ■ SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 79 ■■4yi I2i. '•■ • copy W':/ River J '■'••*■' ), &'.: Lodiitil t ' ■*■'■■ '» ■ F;- ■ ■ elijpous .V eaaked ''■'■ 1 k left by •,/;.. . i p;-' ords of he pur- ;'■■/**'■■■ int tA\- 'L-., ■ " The K- jwiU. f''V g of the *k.**i wordfi: »«,«?■• s- ■ hriBtjan " ,-■' ■-. li^rt's ift ;■■ -jS-- tre made on the recommendation of the councils. When servants are in(»pa- nitated by age for active duty, they are raperannuated and kept at the posts as ■upemunieraries, rendering such voluntary service as they please in return for their food and clothing. 1461 . You were alM asked to put in the census of the Red River population. Have you it ? — Yes. 1462. Will you put it in }—{The IVitnesa delivered in the same.) The total population shown is 6,500 ; add the population of Portage la Prairie, Manitobah, and Pembina, 1,500 ; making a total of 8,000. 1463. Mr. Roebuck.] Will you tell us where those placi« are, so that we may know the area of country r — They are parts of the Red and Assiniboine Rivers. The settlement extends along those rivers, up and down, above and below the fort. 1 464. You stated a certain number of names. I want to know where those names are upon that map ? — I am stating where the first is. ' ' ': 1465. The first is the Red River Settlement ?— Yea, 1466. What is the next? — The next is Portage hi Pnurie, about AO mflea above Red River, upon the Assiniboine ; Manitobah is about 60 miles in a northerly direction, upon a lake of that name. 1467: Mr. Edward Etlieei] Will you point out Pembina. (7%« « me was pointed wt). 1468. Mr. Roebuck.'] What is the number (tf the population in thuse places ? — ^Eight thousand. "' 1469. Whites and altogether? — Yes. Vt ,iiQ*t ^Olsia 1470. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Have you put it in in detail ?— Yes. *^?i47iL You were also asked to put in Uie census of the Indian population in ] detail over the whole territorv r — Yes. Here is the census of the Indian popu- ' lation. There is a list of the Company's trading posts, and the estimated ' 'dumbicT of Indians frequenting those posts. {The /Vitnegs deliverea in the strne). 1473. Mr. Roebuck.] Will you state the total ?r-rThe Indians, east of the 'I^OuntafhSi 55,000 ; west of the mountuns, 80,000 ^t Esquimau^, 4,Q0O..,^, >fV -1473. What is the date trf that census ?' — haat year. '/'• (j>rf;m' ->rrfe 1474. Have you any census for 20 years back ?~We have no regular census. ' It is a veiy difficult matter to get a census ; the tribes are so migratory that it is impossible to fill up a correct census ; this is an estimation. ro-rf i^' 1475. Did the Company ever attempt to make a census in times past?— We have attempted it in various parts of the country. " 1476. Have you that census ? — I have no census. tfo?j.v^ 1477. Could you get it r— Not in less than two or three years ; two jwsn certainly. ' ''' 1478. Why would it take you that time to get it r — Qn account of the dis- "%in'ce ; sending off now, we could not get the census in the most r^motiQ, part of Mackenzie's River before 18 months or two years from this date. ^iidiii^:^frS,:- 1 479. I asked you if the Company had made attempts to get a census some years back, and you said they had? — ^Yes^ we have, from time to time, in different parts of the country. s< .Pt ; 1480. Can you put the Committee'' in. possession of those censuses ?r~ I think not. . ,? 148!. Why not? — I do not know that they have been sent here. But our estimate of the population has been confirmed by travellers; for instance. Colonel Lefroy took an estimate of the population. ;• 1482. You give the census now. I want to get the census 20 years back to know whether the population has increased or decreased?— I cannot supply that. 1483. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] Colonel Lefroy's estimate was made in 1843, I think ; that is 13 years ago ? — Yes. '■''^' 1484. When was Major Warre's made; in 1845, 1 think? — Yes. 1485. With regard to the use of spirituous liquors, you were asked the other day whether there were any rules in the Council, or any published regulations regturdingthem; have you got any such rules? — Yes. 1 have first an extract from the standing rules and regulations of the fur trade, dated 1843, prohibiting the use of spirituous liquors. Likewise, a copy pf the 42d-minute of the Council for the Southern department, dated 1851, prohibiting the importation of spirituous liquors into that department. Thirdly, a copy of an agreement, "^•. 0.25. ■,;:r.';i ■.;.-;■-,::■:;■ ^4 dated ,r. .,,, W^- '^.- >§;:.—( M!-' ' 'W^^ ... '■': <; ^:-FJ" Sir O. Simpimi. a Mareh 1857. Vith ApfmOin. -'.■y.; '^*,>vC-'y- ii|i«fA:v«ft»tii>,,.-, •;, -■,, •i,'- ;?.■•?. .4 Kc( ./;./'! >^.^-- "■■ : 1 ■H 1 ity -"."i» rT'fy.. if*. ;:?^'y5i&; 8d MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE •■.fir- ■■■ Sir G.Simjuon. dated 13th May 1842, between the Hu(!soto's Baj Company and the Ruasian- — Ameritiftn Company, prohibiting the lue of apurttuouB liquors on the North-^est t Marcti 1857. coast df America. Fiii Appendix. i486, Will you hand those in ? — (T/te Witness delivered in the same.) 1487. Yuu Were also asked Xrith reference to the refusal of the Company to export some goods belonging to a man named Sinclair, at Red River?— Yes. 1488. Havte you any explanation to give of that circumstance ? — In 1844, Mr. Sinclair forwarded to York a quantity of tallow, for the puipose of slup ment to England in the Company's Tessel. The ship was so full that a lai^ quantity of nie Company's property and Mr; Sinclair's tallow were left out ; as it was doubtful whether ;oom could be found in the following season the Compwiy took ths tallow off tiie hands of Mr. Sinclav, on his own terms^ od the 25th of July 1845. But although the property of the Company it remained Hi&e for ft year afterwards, for want of room in our ships. 1489. Mr. Roebutk.'] Was th(^i^ any attempt to accuttaulate taltdvi^ by Mhe)» persons, besides Mr. Sinclair, the next year ?-^Mr. Sinclair, and, I think, Mr. M'Dermot, cdlfec^ tallow etnd sent it down for shipment to York Factory. »v \ 7^0] 1490. TTt»e next year ?— In the year 1844. >^ ^^> . ;, 149^' That was the first year; I asked you with reference to the second ' ^ v iii^^ y®*"^ ^— Tlie second jrear I am not aware that there was any tallow shipped. ^ 'li V ^ >4Q3. Was there an accumulation of tallow by other parties besides Mr^ c-^p'^ii Sinclair in that territory ?— I think not. ^v^.:'- ;'i','^ :;:■,■, y'\ »493« There was none brought ?— None that lam aware of; Mr. Sinclair ? <;l >> and. Mr. M'Dermot were the ordy two parties that I have any recollecticni of as .: ('' ' luting collected tallow for the purpose of shipment to EngliAnd. 1 1 ' -!^' V 'i494' ' think you say the Company left the tallow there, and they did not ., J - , ' buy it until the next year? — ^They could not diip it; a lai^e quantity of the ^"^ ' ^'■^■■"■'^■■'^!^H ■' ^ ■ Cranpany's goods were likewise shut out. Vi^„ ' v| 1495. TTiat is to say, the Company having the exclusive right of trading ^ ;^s.V' "^ there, did not provide shipping enough to carry it on? — Yes; there was not , v' ,; T;^' ' shipping enough that season. • ;| /: 1496. Mr. Edward Ellice.] But I think you stated the other day that there ' fras no objection on the part of the Company to any other person charb(riiiig a \r„ ... freight if he liked; to take away or to bring anything he wanted ?~~Not ai; ''^■y'-^'/:-", laU; I have suggested to Mr. M'Dermot and Mr. Sinclair, and various other ^(■.'' people, that they had better charter a ship for themselves. 1497. Mt. Roebuck.'] Doyoum^an to say that the Company would allow '> anybody to send ships into Hudson's Bay, to trade in that part of the world ? > — No, not for the purpose of trade ; I said that the inhabitants of Red River are quite at liberty to import their own suppUes in th«tr own ships. 1498. How much tallow was there? — There may luive been a few tons ; I do not exactly recollect the number of packages. 1499. And you suggested to the senders that they should get a large ship, to car^ 200tonsof wlow? — No; we take out about 10,000 ^ worth of property V' , for them sometimes. 1500. You say that you offered to those gentlemen, Mr. Sinclair and Mr. M'Dermot, the power to charter a ship to cairy that tallow to England ? — ^Yes ; at that time they were talking of forming a large association for the purpose of breeding cattle for the export of tallow, and for growing hemp or flax ; I suggested that they should charter a vessel for themselves for such purposes. 1501. Mr. Edward ElHce.] Have the Company ever chartered vessels so small as 200 tons to take out their property ? — Yes, several ; there was a ship called the " Geotve," and others. 1502. Mr. Roebuck.] There were 200 tons of tallow left behind that year? — , I do not say there were 200 tons, but there was a quantity of tallow ; I cannot fix upon any specific amount. 1503. You say there was no increase of that quantity the next year ?*— No, I do not think there was any. 1504. And you suggested to these parties that they might then charter a vessel to carjy home that tallow? — No, not then, but previously for many years I had suggested it ; they talked of forming a large export trade of colonial produce ; I said " Very well, there can be no c'^jection un the part of the Company." ' . « * , ", • .: T'^- \ n-' I 1505. We :*:■ T'^ that If s'-'. payt 1^ infei 1^ —Y 0. ;^'!>,: '^^[^ %[ ■fjf^- y:m^. ^■ est to i. 44, the ^l"*/^;^! >oii 'v.^; ned '-/!-: the» Mr. ;:' -: x)nd clair )f as , not; the wling t not there finga [otai. ot;hier low arid? River ildo ship, perty Mr. -Yes; )8e of uc; I les. -h 80 ship annot --No, •ter a years loniai >f the We -CM SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 8i ' I5v'>5. We are now directinf; our attention to this portion of tallow, and you Sir 6. Smpton tell us that you suggested to these parties that they might charter a ship ; did -— you siu'gest to them that they might charter a ship to carry home that tallow ? > March 1857. —No. 1506. What did they do with that tallow ? — They sold it to the Company. 1507. They could do nothing else I suppose ? — ^lliey might have allowed it to remain th ^re till there was an opportunity of exporting it. 1508. Till it pleased the Company to take it home ?•— No, not till it pleased the Company to take it home, but till they had an opportunity. 1509. What opportunity could they have?— Their own ships. , 1510. That is to say, if they chartered ships according to your suggestion? ••"■l^ Company have certain ships ) they generally send two ships a year to York Factory, and if there was room in those ships, they would naturally take J i;' 5^ , , tallow as a matter of course, or any other produce they might have. ..'•: * ■ ; '^ ; 1511. Do you not think that a mode of proceeding which would put an end '^f y to all trade ? — No ; I think if the trade was sufficiently extended, the Company would provide shipping, or the settlers might provide shipping themselves 1512. Was not there more produce than the Co jipany's ships could carry home upon that occasion r — Yes ; perhaps there were 30, 40, fiO, or 60 tons. 1513. I understood you 200? — ^You said 200; I said there were a few hundred weight, or possibly tons. . - . ... t, ,.;. 1514. It was for that that they were to charter a ship ? — No. ' ''T -p^^i 1515^ Mr. Gfegson.] Did you not say thfit yoa had not sufficient tonnage that season for your own goods r — We had not sufficient tonnage that seiison for our own goods ; we were obliged to leave out some of our own goods. 1516. Mr. Roebuck.] That is to say, you did not charter vessels enough even for you own trade ? — Yes. 1517. And yet you were traders? — Yes; it very frequently happens intjtie port of London, as in every other port, I believe, that goods are left out. ',.,', \^u 1518. With respect to the manufactured goods which you take out to tliat territory, have you any account of the amount of goods which you annually take out to that territory ? — No. / t j» 1519. Could you get it ?— I could ; I could obtain an estimate of it." *''>»•''" 1520. Possibly, not knowing the actual quantity, you can tell me the ihod^ tn which the goods, whatever may be the quantity, are distributed ? — I think the imports into the country by the Company are about 60,000 /. a year 1 at the York Factory, Moose and East Main ; that is to say, to the Bay. ^ ir).)si\^jgi 1521. Can you give me any idea how that 60,000/. worth of goods is distributed over that immense territory ?— I think about two-thirds of that quantity of goods is given to the Indians ; however, this is merely an approxi- mation ; I Imve no figures. 1522. What was the number of Indians which you just now stated r— On the east side of the Rocky Mountains, 55,0\)0. v . .- . ; 1523. I suppose that quantity is confined to the east side of the Rock^ Mountains r — Yes. 1524. You distribute 40,000/. worth of goods among 55,000 Indians?— I think that is about the estimate. 1525. What are those goods usually composed of?— British manufactures; the stai-'ls articles are blankets, cloths, arms, ammunition, uron works, axes and various things. 1526. I will direct your attention to arms ; in what way are they sold ; are they sold by barter or for money ? — They are sold by barter. > 1527. For so many skins ? — For so many skins. .^ « A A 1528. When you sell a gun to an Indian, do you ever take inferior skins for that gun ? — We outfit the Indian- 1529. Cannot you answer me that question?— We do not sell a gun fcr s'-' .3 ; wo give the gun to the Indian, as ^^verything else, on credit, and he pays for those supplies in the spring of the 3'ear. 1530. Supposing a gun is sold to an Indiui^ would you take in payment an inferior kind of skins?- We take in payment wha<.c"er he can give us. »53i. Um Indian had nothing but musk rat skins, you would lake those? —Yes. 0.35. h 153a. Do \\- >K' m &4m i:\ 83 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE •m SitO.Simpion. 153a. Do you meai) to tell me that?— I mean to say that we would take from an Indian whatever he could give us. The Indian must have certain « March ilj?. supplies. 1533- My question is a very, plain one; would you take musk rat skins in payment for a gun from an Indian ? — Certamly ; we take whatever the Indian can give us. 1534- And you mean to state that to me, that guns are sold to Indians with the full understanding that they may pay you back in musk rat skins? — If an Indian has nothing but musk rat skins, we will take musk rat skins. >535. Supposing that were to occur with an Indian once, would he be likely to get a second gun ? — Yes, decidedly, if he required it. ^53^- Do you know the relative proportions between musk rat skins and beavers ?— We have a variety of tariflfe ; it depends upon the part of the country where the goods are traded ; as, for instance, in Canada we pay in a great degree money for our furs. On the American frontier we pay frequently m money; in the interior it is principally a barter trade; and on the frontier we are regulated in our prices by the prices given by opposition. » 537. Are the prices rather higher upon the frontier than they are in the ^,;;;iy-;^-t .•;-;-.■; interior of the country ?— Yes. ^p;;Ai;''^?^«i« ^*i'?'% '''\'i'-f'''''-ii,f,-.^:r.^53^- Does not that arise from the competition ? — Yes. i:^.' -" #1539- So that the Indian, where there is competition, gets more than he does >; ft-v S ' where there is none ? — He does. Afn .j:;^ ;f> 1540- Does not that rather improve the condition of the Indian ? — No, cer- ■^Ji''fy,^-i:^^i^s taiuly not. w, i V ' 154' • So that getting more does not improve him ? — No, it does not improve f his condition. I think that the condition of the Indian, in the absence pf oppo- '. •" ■' sition, is better than where he is exposed to opposition. ■„;' '^'' • . * • 1542. C/iairman.] For what reasons ?— The absence of sp?r!ftK)dSiiqubrff. 1543. Mr. Roebuck.] First of aU let us understand this : in tjie, interior of the country you say you barter with the Indian ? — Yes. 'l::..^^'',-''Mf''f^y^''''' 1544. And on tHe frontier you give him money ? — ^That fi^ue'&tly happens in some parts of the country. 154.5- On the frontier he gets a larger price for his goods than he does in the interior ? — Yes. 1546. And you say that notwithstanding that, he is better off in the interior than he is on the frontier, because in the one case he gets spirituous liquors, and in the other case he does not ? — And in other reopects. The Indian in the interior depends upon us for jill his supplies ; whether he i^ able to pay for them or not, he gets them j he eets his blankets, he gets his gun, and he gets his ammunition. If from death in his family, or any other cause, he makes no hunt, it cannot be helped. 1 547. I suppose you recollect that you diytribute among the Indians less than 1 /, a head f — Very possibly we do. 1548. I want you to tell me the condition of the Indian in the interior : is he ever starved to death in the winter ?— r Very rarely. 1 549. So that if travellers tell us that story they tell us a traveller's story ? — Indians do starve as whites do starve sometimes. 1550. Have you ever heard of Indians being reduced to cannibalism during the winter ? — Yes, I think I have, and of whites likewise. y;i5.5i . Because they have not enough to eat," I suppose ? — Yes. 1552. Upon what, in the liunting territory, does the Indian live? — In the prairie country he lives principally upon biiffulo meat. 1553- Does the buffalo reaoh to where the fur country is 5 — There are a few furs in the buffalo country. 1554. 1 am talkiiig of the fur country, where the people pass their time in hunting for furs : how do they live in the winter? — They live in a great degree upon fish. '555- Are they from one year to another fully supplied with fish ? — I think generally speaking they are. J 556. You still have instances in your recollection of cannibalism occurring? — Cannibalism has occurred repeatedly. '5.'>7- When did it occur in your recollection ? — I do not exactly recollect ; I think huts, we Ci 15 era »5 post, 15 15 outpo 15 15; are o( 0.3 .,,■*». • '*_• SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BA.Y COMPANY. 83 the n the a few I think there were'sOliQe cases of cannibalism in the last few years in the Sir G. .S/w/Mcwi Athabasca country. 1558. I have before me a letter of Mr. Kennedy : I suppose you have heard a March 1857. of Mr. Kennedy ? — There are several Kennedys ; which Kennedy do you mean? 1559' H^ i^ ^ person who has quarrelled with your Company, I believe ; and he wrote a letter to Lord Elgin 1 — William Kennedy. 1560. Theire is this passage in his lett<3r ; and I want to ask you whether you are at all ci^^izant of the facts : quoting" from a letter received by him, he says, " You will be grieved to learn that the curse which had effect in the old country has e:d;ended here, though arising from causes of more frequent occur- rence than even the failure of the crops. Starvation has, I learn, committed great havoc among your old friends the Nascopies, numbers of whom met their death from want last winter ; whole camps of them were found dead, without one survivor to tell the tale of their sufiFerings ; others sustained life in a way the most revolting, by using as food the dead bodies of their companions ; some even bled their own children to death, and sustained life with their bodies !" Quoting from another letter, he says, " At Fort Nascopie the Indians were dying in dozens by starvation ; and, among others, your old friend, ■■ , Paytabais." A third he quotes as saying, " A great number of Indians starved to death last winter ; and says it was 's fault in not giving them enough of ammunition." Do any facts like that come within ycur l(nowledge ? —No ; tliat is an exaggerated statement. 1561. In your 37 years' experience in that territory, you have never heard of any transactions like that, and deaths like that ? — Never, except in Mr. Ken- nedy's letter. ;^ ■ ^ , , , _. ; ; , 1562. Not in your own experience? — Certainly not. ■ "•■■-<*' ^ •*i'«i,i * .iiii,\u\ 1563. Mr. Edvmrd Ellicei] In what part of the country is that? — Upon the tiabrador coast. 1564. Mr. BMbuc1c.'\ Then you do not believe that statement ? — J do not. 1565. Where is Fort Nascopie? {The same was pointed out.) — It is on the , Labrador coast. 1566. Mr. Edmrd Ellic9.1 Th^t is in Canada, is it not ?— It is in Newfow^ 1567. TAt. Roebuck.'] Does not the Hudson's Bay Company's territory extend over Labrador ? — No ; it is a part of Newfoundland. 1568. So that that northern peninsula does not belong to the Hudson's Bay Company ? — The whole does not. 1569. Mr. Grogan.] But is that fort which Mr. Hoebuck is questioning you about, in Labrador, or is it in Rupert's Land r — It is in Labrador. 1570. Mr. Roebuck.] It is pointed out as on the Green ; then it is in the Hudson's Bay Company's territory ? — I think not. 1571. Mr. Edward Ellicc] Have you examined that map ? — I have not atten- tively. I had not seen it till I came in just now. ," '' \ ' '] ! '' ' ' ' "' 1572. Do you know whether tliat fort belongs td the Hudsofn's Bay Com- pany ? — It does i it is a post or establishment called the Post of Nascopie. These posts arc moved from tune to time according to circumstances. - 1573. Mr. Roebuck.] Can you remove a fort? — A fort is half-a-dozen log huts, and may be erected by half a dozen men in about a week ; that is what we call a fort. 1574. It bears tlie same name wherever it travels?— We call it either a post or a fort. 1 575. Do you mean to say that you move a fort about ? — We call it an out- post, a trading post. 1 do not call it a fort. 1576. It is culled a fort here ?~It may be so ; it is a uiisnomer. "-^'t'^^.' 1577. Do you mean to say that you have no Foi.'t Nascopie ?— We have an outpost called Nascopie. 1578. You have no fort crlled Nascopie ? — We have not. ' T.'.'K;r. nt> . • , ^ 1579. Mr. Grogan.] It is a station? — It is a station. 1580. Mr. Edward Ellicc] And those stations depend upon the time they are occupied ?— Exactly so. " .1 0.25. 12 1581. Mr. [I- iv§: I mm mm 8WO. Simptom, * Marcii 1B57. iSS;¥ if- 'Ilifi S'. '"•■■■. H' -, - ■|^=-'^; li f 84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 1581. Mr. Grogan.^ Has that station ever been abandoned? — I reallj' cannot tell ; I think it is very likely. 1582. But has it been ab^donedr — I really cannot tell ; vire move an esta- blishment according to circumstances. If the Bsh and the other means of sub- sistence are not suificiently abundant, we move it to another pmnt, 10, 20, or 30 miles distant. 5 1583. Mr. Roebuck put a question to you about the death of a great number of natives adjoining a fort, which at first you were under the impretnon was in Labrador ? — Yea, ♦ 1584. Now it appears that it is in the Hudson's Bay Company's territory > — I am not quite sure that it is ; I am rather disposed to think it is not. 1585. Mr. Roehuck.'] You distinctly said that Plascopie was a station belong- ing to the Hudson's Bay Company ?— Yes. 1586. This account speaks of Nascopie?—Yee. 1587. Therefore it belongs to the HuH sun's Bay Company ?^It did belong to the Hudson's Bay Company. 1588. Mr. Grogan.'] Has it ever been abandoned? — I do not even know whether it is at present occupied or not. »^ . 1589. Mr. Edward EUicef\ It is still occupied ?— Yes, 1590. Mr. Roebuck '\ So that it still belongs to the Hudson's Bay Company? — 'It always has belonged to the Hudson's Bay Company, when it has been occupied. 1591. It just now belonged to Labrador ? — Upon the coast of Labrador ; we have establhihments upon the coast of Labrador. 1592. Mr. Blackburn.'] Are these posts sometimes in Labrador, and some* times in the Hudson's Bay territory ? — They are moved as circumstances may render advisable. I593< Mr. Roebuck.'] But they are always under the command of the Hud- son's Bay Company ? — Yes. 4, 1594. So that wherever they are moved to they belong to the Hudson's Bay Company ? — ^Hudson's Bay establishments are under the control of the Hud- son's Bay Company, but there are other establishments in the immediate neighbourhood. '595' Chairman.] Is there any arrangement with the government of Labra- dor, by which you use that territory for your purposes?— It is open for any- body. 1596. In truth it is practically unoccupied r — Yes. T ilT '1^;;iV i^r :3*'^'' 1597. Mr. Roebuck.] Will you allow me to read to you another passage : '* There are some extensive tracts of country in which the means of subsist- ence are scanty in the extreme. In the region lying between Lake Superior and Lake Winnipeg, the natives, during the winter, can with difficulty collect enough of food to suppo^'t life. In the country lying immediately norih of the C{«nada8, though fr.r-bearing animals are still comparatively numerous, and the trade consequently valuable, the poor Indians have &t all times a hard, fight against famin ^ In thiii tract of country fish is at all seasons scarce, and in winter the sole dependence of thw natives for subsistence is placed upon rabbits (the most wretched food upon which to exist for any time that can pos- sibly be conceived), and when these fail the most frightful tragedies at times take place. Parents have been known to lengthen out a miserable existence, by killing and devouring their own offspring"; do you bejiieve that? — ^That is an exaggerated statement. rf'f''- .^ /^' ^'-h;',;-,'-: •:/>'''■:['-'■%.- '^^i.. '^. 1598- ^1 did. T^'d you ever know a book called '* The life of Thomas Simpson " ? — 1 599. By whom was it written ? — It was written by Mr. Thomas Simpson, I believe. 1600. And if that is an extract from Mr. Thomas Simpson's book, you say it is an exaggeration ? — I do not know what part of the country he speaks of. 1601. Between Lake Superior and Lake Winnipeg ?— There is a very thin population there. ido2. Who was Mr. Thomas Simpson? — Mr. Thomas Simpson was a distant relative of mine. 1603. Was not he a long time in the Company's service ?— No. > 1604. Wa3 trnot esta- 8Ub- 10, or mber rasin tory> slong- ipany? ) been »r; we 58 may eHud- "'■■>, 1*8 Bay s Hud- aediate Labra- )r any- assage: subsist- uperior collect lorJb of >us, and a hard. rce. and > d upon an pos- Lt times xistence. T— That ion"?— >imp8on, you say !ak8 of. ery thin a. distant 04. Was ■■■ -; ''.'£" SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSONS BAY COMPANY. «5 1604. Was not he a long time in that country ? — No ; when I say not a long Sir Q.Simp$oH. time, I speak comparatively. I think he may have been six or seven years in the country altogether, or seven or eight years with me. a Much 1857. 1605. You say that that statement made by him (because you say the life is !(mtten by himself), is an exaggeration ?— Yes ; between Red River and Lake Superior, which I believe is the tract of country he speaks of, the population is ^ exceedingly thin, and never was numerous. ' 1606. Do you know a book called " Ballantyne's Hudson's Bay"? — Yes, I ' have read it. "j;\ ? -; : ,>■ ^, 1607. In that book there is this statement: "At these posts the IncUans are frequently reduced to cannibalism, and the Company's people have on more titan one occasion been obliged to eat their beaver skins ; this was the case one winter in Peel's River, a post within the Arctic circle in charge of Mr. Bell, a chief trader in the service ; and I remember well reading in one of his letters, that all the iresh provision they had been able to procure during the winter was two squirrels and one crow ; during this time they had exist«l on 1^ a quantity of dried meat which they fortunately had in store, and they were obliged to lock the gates of the fort to preserve the remainder firom the wretclied Indians, who were eating each other outside the walls ; the cause of I all this njisery was the entire failure of the fisheries, together with great scarcity ^. of wild animals. Starvation is quite common among the Indians of those " distant regions ; and the scraped rocks, divested of their covering of iripe de , roche, which resembles dried seaweed, have a sad meaning and melancholy appearance to the travellers who journey through the wilds and solitudes of Rupert's Land" ? — Yes ; Mr. Ballantyne never was in that country ; he does not know the country. The cases of cannibalism are very rare indeed. 1608. I will read to you a very short passage, and ask you whether it is a , true description of Mr. Thomas Simpson : " No man in the Company's service had sucii opportunities as he enjoyed of becoming acquainted vrith their H, management, and none was better able to appreciate its effects ; " is that an accurate description of Mr. 'ITiomas Simpson?— No, I think not; he acted as J my secretary for a short time, but I do not think his judgment was very sound upon many points. 1609. If those words come from a report on the part of the Hudson's Bay . Company, then they are incorrect ? —Yes ; I do not conceive that his judgment was sound upon many points. 1610. I ask you, if those words come from a report made oy the Hudson's Buy Company, still, notwithstanding that, they are incorrect ? — Yes ; his judg- ment is lauded a little higher than I think it should be. «,»>(.;; 161 1. Who made that report, do you know? — I really do not recollect. i 1612. There was a letter written by Sir J. H. Pelly, Bart., to Earl Grey, V dated " Hudson's Bay House, 24th April 1847." There is, as an enclosure in j Sir John Pelly'p letter to Lord Grey, a report on the memorial of Mr. A. K. J Isbester and others, to the Secretary of State for the Colonies ; that report, j I suppose, was a report of the Hudson's Bay Company. In that report is the i description which 1 read to you of Mr. Thumas Simpson ; in spite of this coming from the Hudson's Bay Co3npany, you say that it is an incorrect . description of Mr. Thomas Simpson ? — Mr. Thomas Simpson was a very active, energetic man, but not a man of sound judgment upon many points. 1613. Are you aware of a complaint made by the American Government about the sale of spirits by the Hudson's Bay Company ? — No, I am not. 1614. You are not pware that the American Government applied to the English Government in consequence of certain complaints made to them, the , American Government, of the sale of spirits by the Hudson's Bay Company ?- - No, 1 do not recollect any such complaint; there may have been one. i()i5. Are you at all aware whether the nuiubera of the Indians are diminishhig now ? — No ; I think the Indians of the thickwood country are increasing in numbers ; the population there, I think, is increasing. i(ii6. You say that in different parts of tlv ^rritory different prices are ;»3 charged by the Company for the goods they sell to vhe Indians ? — Yes. 1G17. At the mouth cf the Red River what is the per-centage of the tariff added to the cost price of gcods?- 0.35. -I cannot st^y at the Red River, because it L 3 depcD''.) V , iHm S6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCB TAKEN BEIiY)RE THE r?(#^ B it G.Simpi im. depends entirely upon the price given by the Americans and others upon the "~ ~ frontier. • Jfarch 1857. ,g, 8, Is the mouth of th6 *ed River near the fronlier ?— The mouth of the Red River is dose to the frontier. 1619. I would say the mouth of Mackenzie's River ? — I cannot tell the precise tariff; I have no copy of the precise tariff; they pay n higher price for their goods tha' those nearer the coast ; the returns do not come to market until about from six to seven years after outfits are issued. 1620. Mr. Edward Eliice.] That is to say, that you give less for the furs ^^ We give less for the fiurs. I €u I . You take more fitis, in fact, for an article ?— Yes ; our system of dealing is this : Indians require certain necessary supplies to enable them to hunt, and these we provide them with. 1 6ia. Mr. Roebuck.'] Do you know the quantity of beads which you have imported per annum? — ^I do not; they are not an article of trade; they are given as presents. 1633. You never give so many beads for so many skins ? — Never ; they are .'■'■:■■ entirely gratuities ; beads are never traded, to my knowledge ; if they are, it is (J:; .. i^^te contrary to instructions. "'^:''' :>v,i624. Do you know the amount of marten skins imported last year?— I do ^ ^ ' not ; I cannot tell from recollection. Awls, gun flints, gun worms, hooks, needles, thread, beads, knives, gartering ribbons, &c., are given as gratuities ; about 20 '; ■ V,, ■ \; ; per cent, of the outfit in those articles are given as gratuities. i] >rl ' -, 7^ 1625. So that a good knife is not considered an article of commerce at aU^^ • '; •; i. ; ■ ;, — No ; it is given as a gratuity. \, ' j^ > .1626. And that is the statement which you make of the way in which you ; deal with the Indians with knives ?— That is the usual practice. t' :;.■ ^^ 1627. So that if a knife were to cost 10*., you would make a present of it? — We never ^ve lO-shilUng knives ; they are too expensive a^ article; 19 cannot afford to pay such prices. ■^^ 1628. Do you ever give 5 *. for a knife ? — No never. .j"' :v . 1629. Half*a-crown ? — I cannot tell precisely whivt the co^t price of a knjife may be, but I should think the cost price of a knife is high at half-a-crovfn ftff the Indian trade, • 1630. Was not there some agreement or some bond entered into by die Hudson's Bay Company, that they would send the criminals to be tried ^o Canada? — There is a concurrent jurisdiction in Canada. 1631. Will you answer my question ?— I am not aware of any bond, but very likely there may have been ; I do not recollect. 1032. So that though you have been Governor for 3'/ years of that territory, if such a thing has occurred, it does not now pccur to your memory?— rl do not recollect ; the cases are so verjr few. v r T .!li. 1633. In your long experience of that country are you aware of any CriUmlklB ever having been sent to be tried in Canada ? — Yes. 1634. How many times ? — On one occasion; there were three men sent for trial for murder ; and I think that case was noticed in the foirmer investigation of the Commit1:ee. '635- Chairman,^ Supposing an arrangement was made by which any por- tion of the territory now administered by the Hudson's Bay Company, which might be supposed to be fit for the purposes of colonisation, was separated from that administration, such a district of country, for instance, as the Red River, and any land in the neighbourhood of the Red River, or of the frontier of Canada, or land on the extreme west coast in the neighbourhood of Vancou- ver's Island, would there be any difficulty in the Hudson's Bay Company con- tinuing to conduct their affairs after that separation had taken place ? — 1 think not, because I do not believe there would be any settlement for a great length of time ; I do not beUeve there would be any migration into the country for ages to come. ''•^' ''''^] ^''■'■"'"''l'* ■■''^>0*^> 1 6^6. Suppose that was left to be tested by experience ; suppose any country, such as it could be thought would be available for the purposes of colonisation, was taken from, the administration of the Hudson's Bay Company under a suitable arrangement, would it interfere in any way with the management of fhe aSsiin of the Hudson's Bay Company, or of such territory &s was left f — I .'^^r-':;;. think :•» ,?'! ; m fi SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 87 ^S*?(i ' rrJP ■ "■'k- ''ir. o. Is there no fur trading upon the western coast of the Pacific from the boimdary line down to California ? — Very little. 1661. Is there not a fur company ? — No, there is no fur company that I am aware of. 1662. Eio that the Americans do not accumulate furs at all? — In that part of the country they do not. :^ uii| {"fww t 1663. Do they in any part of the counti^?— No, I am not aware of it; on the sources of the Missouri a good many furs are collected. ;US:ri4.w^ 1664. Is there not an American fur company? — No, I think not; there was ;<^^ !; Vv; an Anierican fur ccmpary ; it was broken up long ago. ■ -.r '';;'; . 1665. Mr. Charles Fitzmliiam.'] Within the U^t two months?— No, within j; , i;i '-^^ the last few years. :^''^,.:,''^';^ ■< . i666. Mr. Adderlei/.'} In reply to a question put by the Chairman, you ■»; :; "-V.\' .: y," stated that the Company would not object to any settlement west of the Uocky . ;' t "' Moimtains, provided such settlers were restrained from interfering with the rights of the Company as to the fur trade? — I think so. 1667. Will you describe the nature of the restraint which you would surest ? ' — That they should not be allowed to interfere in the fur trade, but confine themselves to agriculture or other pursuits. 1668. Doyoumean, then, that the settlers west of the Rocky Mountains should a'.;' be bound to maintain their own settlement in a fur-bearing condition ?— No ; th9 ^^;' country adapted for settlement is not a fur-bearing country. | 1669. Then what would be the nature of the restraint which you think the Company would conuder necessary ?— That the settlers should not go into the fur-bearing countries. 1 670. The restraint would only apply to other portions of the district claimed by the Hudson's Bay Company ? — Yes. 1671. Do you consider tliat the Company would have a right or interest in making any restrictions upon the settlement of the country itself west of the Rocky Mountains ? — No, I think not. 1672. The settlement of that part of the country might be effected with no injury to the Hudson's Bay Company, without any restrictions as to the terr);-.. tory itself? — Provided they did not interfere with the fur trade. '^ 1673. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Would the restriction of dealing with the Indians be sufficient for your purpose ? — ^Yes, it would, I think. 1674. Mr. Adderky.} The country to be settled, west of the Rocky Moun- tains, might be settled free from any conditions relative to that country itself? — Except as regards the fur trade. iKts. Chairman.'] How do you manage to prevent the Canadian traders now from introducing spirits iiito the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company, along that great extent of frontier ? — They cannot pass through the country without our assistance. 1O76, Is that difficulty of communication sufficient to enable you practically to prevent the trade in spirits ? — Yes, decidedly. 1677. ^ suppose there is some smuggling in the districts immediately in the neighboiurhood of the settled countries ?— 1 think there is no smuggling in t^.- territory of the Hudson's Bay Company, in the district of countiy over which they claim an exclusive right of trade, except at Red River. 1678. When you say no smuggling, do you mean that there is none of any consequence, or none at all ? — 1 believe there is none. 1679. Lord Stanky.] You have posts beyond your own territory, have you not, in Canada ? — Yes -, we have establishments all the way down the St. Law- rence. ^'^' ■ ' i68o. Chatrmn.] iSfT SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 89 in the in ti- which ive you . Law- 9 March 1857. ..•■>.-i.^ ' *■*•, .,•. ;. .-'...--in' . 1680. CAatrmon.] Have you gone on in hanuuny with the Canadians and Sirff. AMfum the Canadian Government ?— Perfectly bo. 1681. Mr. Boebuck.] Id that census which you have given in, is there an account of the numbers of the half-breeds in the Red Biver Settlement ? — ^Yes ; 8,000 is the whole population of Red River ; that is the Indian and half-breed population. ifi82. Can you give any notion of how many of those are half-breeds? — About 4,000, I think. 1683. Can you tell the Committee whether those half-breeds are improving In their intelligence ?— I think they are. 1684. Have not the Company established schools there? — ^Yes, there ore schools. 1685. Do not the half-breeds go to those schools? — Many of them do, especially the half-breeds of European parentage. 1686. Since they have gone to those schools have you found the half-breeds ^ as submissive as they were before ? — Yes, I think they are fully ; more so. '?** 1687. So that they do not give you any more trouble than they used to do ? ;; — We have little or no trouble with them. 1688. They do not demand free trade in furs ; you never heard of such a .> thing ? — They do not demand it, but they practise it ; many of them do. 1689. Have you found the free trade increase since the instruction of the:^ ]^eople increased ?— No, I do not find that since the encouragement to trade ' has increased they have been extending their operations in that way. ' 'i l6go. Do you mean to say that the free-trading has not increased of lat6 years ? — Not very materially ; they have been in the habit of trading, more or* 'j less, for a great many years ; perhaps there may be more engaged in it recently^'' than there were a few years ago. i6gi. So that the increase of education at the present moment has not at all increased the desire of the people to have communication vrith America ? — • No, I am not aware that it has ; I am not aware that there is any particular ' desire to connect themselves viith America. 1692. I mean to trade with America ? — To trade in what ? "^'^'''-^J^'' V^sf 1693. In all commodities? — I believe there is very little trade at prraent '. going across the frontier. 1694. Are you at all aware of any increased desire on the part of those people to carry on trade with the Americans ?— No ; I am not aware that there is any increased desire. 1695. So that we may take it as your statement that there is no increased desire on the part of that population in that respect? — They have more frequent communication with the United States than heretofore, inasmuch as they have larger dealings. 1696. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] That is not in fiirs ? — Not in furs ; principally in buffalo robes, and a very few furs. 1697. Mr. Rdelmck.'] What do they give to the Americans ?— They take cattle from Red River ; builalo robes, and a small quantity of tallow and horses ; I think those are the principal articles. 1698. Do the Indians of the Red River Settlement wish to trade with the Americans ? — I think not. itigg. I mean the pure Indians? — The pure Indians, I think, principally deal with us. 1 700. You have found no desire on their part to conduct trade with the Americans ? — No ; not across the boundary line ; they principally deal with us. 1701. But I want to know about their desire to have communication with the Americans : have you any proof respecting that ? — I think not ; there is nothinf|[^ to prevent their having it if they have any desire. 1702. Mr. Edward ElUif^.] Do not they like to sell their furs to the best bidder? — Yes, ther ?o to tb** best market. 1703. Chairman.^ 4nd I si^pose they would get spirits wherever they could iind them ? — Yes, I tomk they would. 1704. Are the fur -bearing animals on the increase or otherwise, in the Hud- son's Bay territory, speaking generally ? — I think towards the southern frontier they are on the decrease. 0.-25. M 1705. Trke m ■.:m m m i w ill ■ Jlf; I 1] go MINinSS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE SbO. a Mufeh f 8ii7. i^-x \-s^:-. ^:X: we 1705. Take the whole together?— In the northern part of the couhl ^ nurse the country very much, and the country has improved and is much rich^ in Air-hearing animals than it was 20 years ago. 1706. Taking it altogether, is the export of furs increasing or decreasing ?—r It is larger new than it was at any time within ihy retoUeotion. 1 707. It is the most valuable Air trade in the world, is it not ?— I thin V so. 1708. A great deal lai^r than the Russian fur trade?— Yes. 1709. Mr. Grogan.] You stated that in the form of the lease of land, one <^ the clauses was tnat the settler should endeavour to encouitige the ChristiiBn religion ?— Yes. ^\ '1710. What is the meaning of that covenant? — I do not know; I do not ^^ recollect the covenant. Perhaps you will draw my attention to it. 171 1. You read a passage from one of your land deeds. Mr. Ellice asked yptt the coi^ditioiis of grants of land to settlers. One of ihem you sai^ had rdafiion io efforts on the put <^ the s^er to encourage mpralit^ and the ^Qhiishan religion ?—Yj8. '^:" 1713. Whfll meaning do you attach to that covenant ?—'The covenatit ex- presseait. . 1 7 > 3* Will you read it ? — " And for encouraging and promoting gpieral educa> tion and religious instruction.' Aiul that he tiie sidd • hijs executors, ■dminisfcratoEB, or assignB, shall or .will from time to time, and at all times d^^r^>g the said term jpontidbnte in a due proportion to the expenses qf iUl publjip establishmeirts,^4Rhcither of an ecclesiastical, dvil, militaiy, or qtl^ mature, i^dju^g.ih(n>^ the maintenance of the clergy, the building and enidowment ^f^^fH^ SH^/^ V^ ^ ^ludl or nj^iy jbe fonued un4er the aiijtjxQjniY pf the. ter i» QDi^fleais h '^^., ' 1714. "What may be the tax imposed upon the setiler?— There is no tax., ; :t«.v;^T7l5.>Thctt thai) covenant is vend? — ^That covenant is void as ^ as taxation goes. - 1716. These is no contribution imposed upon the settler for any of the pur- poses stated in that covenant ; viz., the maintjcnance of the ojLergyand the maintenance of schools ? — No, I think not. " 1717. In answer to a question a few moments ago by Mr. Roebuck, you stated that there were schools established in the country, at the Red River Settlement ^.fnar instance ?— Yes. '-' 1718. By whom were those schools ^tablished ?— By the Missionji^ Socie-. ties ; the Church Missionary Society and the Wesleyan Missionary Sooi^y. 1719. And they are still maintained by thetn ? — ^They are still maintained by tiiem^ and as^sted by Ihie Hudson's Bay Company. ' ' ' 'j^'20. Will you explain to me the amount of assistance which the Hudspn's Bay Company give them t — There is a money grant to the Bishooi of 300 (. per 1721. What Bishop? — The Episcopalian Bishop of Rupert's Land. There % 1007. in aid of schools; there is 160 /. to a chaplain at Red River; 50 /. at York ; 50 7. tP a chaplain at Moose ; 50 /. at East Main ; 200 /. in aid of the schools at Fort Victoria ; to the Roman Catholic Mission at Red River, 100 /. ; to the Roman Catholic Mission at Oregon, 100 /. ; on the Gulf of St. Lawrence, 100 guineas ; to the Wesleyan Missionary at Norway-house, 50/. ; at Oxford'- house, 50 I. ; Rainy Lake, 50 /. ; Saskatchewan, 20 /. ; and the Presbyterian Chaplain at Red River, 50 /. 1722. With regard to the sums which you have just enumerated, are those payments out 6f the proper monies of the Hudson's Bay Company, or out of amr. other fiind ? — Out of the funds of the Hudson's Bay Company. '*' ^'1723. Exclusively 1— Exclusively. *' 1724. If a missionary were dispatched from this country to that district to take up a location there, would he have a free passage in one of your vessels ? — Yes ; they usually get £^e passages. 1725. Are you sure on that subject?— I do not recollect that any case has ever been refused. 1726. Are you aware of any cases in which freight has been charged for missionaries p^ing to that country in your ships ? — I ctunnpt tax my memory with that. 1737. In the Parliamentary Paper before us there is a statement pf expendi- ^ ••^'f*"^'>- ture There !iiO/. at of the 1 100 /. ; pence, >xford- lyterian those ; of any Itriet to sels?— ^ge has 5ed for lemory jcpendi- ture SELECT COMMTTTEE' Off THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 91 tm« for two paiiBages in a Company's ship, ahd travelling expeaiea 41 /. S«. ; freight, sapping, and insurance 8 W. ; ti t is chiuged to the Church Miftrionary Society for two piersons who were sent outP-r-Very Ukel/it was 90. If it is 'Stated there the probability is that it was so. 1738. Then hpw is that reconcileable with the fact w|ilch,v6tt bore jvA told us, that there was no charge made ? — I did not say so. I sidd. that I' coiild not call to tbtmojy ii^ether there was k^bj^chargfe or ttoti but We are in' the habit of allowing them these salaries. ' 1739.' Axe those salaries to th^se i&issionAriels and dergylaen to th!^ as tchapkdns or as schoolmasters? — ^They are td them in the double capacity of, chaplains and schoolmasters. .. „ . . - . 173b. Is there any requirement upon them on the rafedpt of such a salary, to keep a stibool? — ^No, there is no positiTe risquirement, but they usu&Uy db keep schools. . . 1731. Is it entirely optional with them whether they keep a schobl or not?— - It is optional as far as we are concerned ; we^ do not insdst upon their keiepiBg; schools. Tbey are under the control of the bishop of the territory/ or tide society to which they belong. We exercise no control over them. 173a. Chairman.'] I think you made an arrangement with the Russian Com- pany by whicb you hold under lease a portion of their territory ? — Y^. , 1 733 • I believe that arrangement is that 3^u hold that strip of country which intervenes between your territory and the sea, and that you give them 1,5002. ayearfor.it? — ^Yes. 1734. What were your objects in making that arrangiement ?-^To prevent difficulties existing between the Russians and ourselves ; as a peace'offenhg.: , 1 73,5. What was the nature of those difficulties ?— We were desirous of passing through their territory, which is inland from the coast about 30 miles. , There is a margin of 30 miles of coast belonging to the Russians'. We bad the right of navigating the rivers falling into the ocean, and of settling the interior country. Difficulties arose between us in regard to the trade m the country^ and to remove all those difficulties we agreed to give them an annual allowance. I think, in the firet instance, 2,000 otter skins, and afterwards of 1,500 1, a year. .„^ ;,'••••':;..', 1 736. Before that arrangement was made did you find that spirits, got intro- duced owing to a sort of competition between your traders and those of the Russian Company ? — ^Yes ; large quantities of spirits were used previous^ to that. .„.;., .,,,:... . .,,.. , V .,-. ..,; 1737. And you found that very injurious ?— Yes. * i / '■:t^¥'l>s^^^ 1738. During the late war which existed between Russia and England, I believe that some arrangement was made between you and the Russians by which you agreed not to molest one another? — Yes, such an arrangement' was niade. 1 739. By the two companies ? — Yes ; and Government confirm^ the a^range- knent. 'a ♦ ' ^- r- ' 1740. You agreed that on neither nde shoald there^ b6 afiy' x&ot^tatibn or interference with the trade of the different parties ? — ^Yes. 1 741 . And I believe that that was strictly observed during the wbole war ? —Yes. 1 74 '2. Mr. Bell.'] Which Government confirated the arrangement, the Russian or the English, or both ? — Both Govemmients. 1743. Mr. Urogan.'] Did you know or hear of one of the servants of the company, named John Saunderson ? — No, I do not recollect the name. it " 1744. Or Peter Walrus ? — No. There are many Saundersons in the service ; it is a common Orkney name, nnd we employ a good many Orkney men. 1745. Is it a fact that a distillery has recently been established at the Red River Settlement ? — There was a distilleyy erected a good many years ago, but never put in operation. We have never attempted distillation. By the desire of the settlers we built a distillery to please them ; but we have never put it ki operation. . 1746. Mr^ Mdioard Ellice.] It was stopped by the Company in London, I believe ? — It was. 1747. Mr. Grogan.] What privileges or rights do the native Indians possess strictly applicable to themselves ?— They are perfectly at liberty to do what they please ; we never restrain Indians. , ,,-J v's,, . 0.35. M 2 . 1740- Sir 0. SnNjMm. t Much 1857. -:i^ W-S^' :'¥•■; Is # ^ ^ Ana IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) A 4s^ ^ /^V ^^ fe Kj ^ 1.0 I.I 2.0 1.8 1.25 1.4 1,6 6" ^ Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 f. , 96 MiimtEd prmamscE^AKmBwam tun Sir JiB, J a t p ixr. 1 S5K Mr. Jtddkdl.] Do tl|0 buffOocs ektOMl ^ Vb» AAstic drde ?— the pndi^ tniAdo ^. 1853. What pcoportioB of jO^ food of the ic'' abitants is m^pplied b^ th« mO^i^oxP-^lt tt verjr nnaU t it is entirely confined to tint part of liie oountiy. 1853. Jp beti yoii may |mt it out qf omsidsiaticin aUoge^mr ?—¥es. 18^. Ilierefoie, your answer that the fobd of tifaiie country duefly4epaided- upon buftdoes was not correct ?<-^!lhe food of thi^ jindirie country is buffids) the foodof the tldckwoqd <»«nti7 is priniti^pally M^ iBss. Mr. MAward mUee.l fs not pemMna ahnost the staff of life of the ser- ▼ants^^the CVmipaay in idl p(uresl----Far ti^^ ijy^« M|r4 JRm^-] Wh|i«i8pemiciiii?~Pemicaniaaowripound of buffido nun and tallow ; it if a portid4<» proThton, principally used in^ traveling. 1857* Have you lianaed any Vim of, ^quantity 01 p«ou foctured in mat country per azmumT-^Perfaapsftom $)(K)0 to 9«00(%cwt^ per. annum;} 809u« years more ; sometimes leas. >. 18^. Andyou bftTc toU lui that therp are,d|»,<)00 inibiddtants 1— East of Hie mountains there are about 6&,000 gr of these' about 35,000 are Indians Uving i^n buiEilo meat.'prind|KQl]yi and 80,009 Bve piindpally iqwu fish ; that is to say, fish ai4 n^Wts. i9ilip ilbttXtiutitd JSCtce.] But the means of existence of the serrants of the CompBuy depend upon provisions taken to the different posts from othei- parts ^ — ^Ym, aaithe fisa they are isible to collect; tiiey lite very much upcoi fish thnraxhout the countnr. 18m£ Has tlHrf) deed wUidi is before the Committee ever, pr^ ^ been made use of by the Company to restrain settlement at the Red River ?-^ Neveri--.'-;^ ;^'?' - ■ . • 1861. Mr. UoAunk^j What is the use of the deedj theto ?— It is so tery little Used tibiat it is <^ tio value, in foot ; i^neteen-tweUtieths of the people have no tit^ i they squat and set tiiemselves 'lown. iSiSs. Suppodng a doten people were to start from Canada determining to setUalit the Bed Itirer 6e^em«iit* would tl^y be at fiU impeded by tl» Com* pany? — ^Itbinknot. i8&3« i^ if mMances are brought forward of great impediments being tfarowniiiJhe w^, you never have heard of tlunu?— There has never been an instuice to my knowledge ; they squat and set thonselves doWn wherever they |deaSe. 1864. Have the Company ever ejected anybody >— Never to my knowledge. 1865. Mr. Grogan.l ^ ^i^ emigrant, as Mr. Roebuck describes, come from Canada to the Ried River Settlement, and be anxious to purchase a partly-* ' improved hmd which some squatter had heea Upon, would your Comiwny interfere to prevent the transfer of the land ? — No. 1866. Would it be neceaury to ask your permission ?— We usually enter all such transfins in a transfer book when the parties i^ly ; but if they do nut choose to aplp^ to us we cannot help it 1867. Is there any fee for that entry ? — None> 18681 Hien is not the pracUoal effect of such a deed as has been read to pre- vent oo^ person taking such a deed from you ?-*-I think that it is not 1869. If a man may squat on the land, and hold undisputed possession of^ the p«rt diat ho squats Upon from you or fxonx «aj aw else, and if he may transfer tJ^t land to another perscm Without obs«n«EGwtmF ?-^Pdcfectly so ; we exercise no eontrol &v«r dian. . > • ? 1751. Mr. Bell,}J)o youmean that, posiessing the right of soil over the whole of Rttpttf • Iwk^m do i^ oonra!^ tiiat yon possess any jurisdiction ^er the JidMhitttitB of that soii ?^No, 1 «n not awace that we da We exer- #Be none, whatever right we possess under our charter. 1^53. Then is it the oale that you do ilot conrider that the IndUns are under your juriBdiction whoi any orimes are cxnnniitted by the Indians np6tt th the iJo^Uieins^ or solely to the Whkes ?--Ta the Whites, we conceive. 1754. ^^'*' G'igan.] Are the native Indians permitted to barter sldns m*«r te "from ime tribe w another ? — ^Yes. J 755. There is no restriction et 'Ul in that respect ?--None at all. 1*56. Is there any restriction with regard to the half^lweeds in thatrespeot ? '•^^None, as r^ards dealings among themsdies. 1757. Lord JbAn fittffrf/.] Supposing any person was t» come from thp United States to trade with &em, would you interfere ?--We should oppose it by every means in our power, but not I^ violMice. . :, 11758. Bvwh#t means would you prevent it ?— By ^ving higher prices, or watching the In^ans. , I75d' B«* yo^ would not drive away such a person ? — No. 1 760K Mr. GrogimlX Have you ever seized and ccmfiscated the goods of parties wlio we?e trading in that way with the IndlajU ?— If it has been done, it baa been of very raro occurrence ; \ do not recdlec^ the circumstances. 1 76 1 . It is stated in these papers that an instance occurred where the goods of some of the settlers were s«zed md confiscated on the suspicion that they were intraided for the purpose of trade with the Indians ?"-It has been of such rare oceurrence that I nave not the least recollection of it. 1768. You stated on Thursday that the price of land to a settler vras 7 *• 8 A An acre 1-^Ytom 6 *. to 7 ». 6 1 764. Is that priceever exacted ?--Very rarely. -^ 1765. If you pmcti<»fiy pve the land ftfee, why is it held out to the world ^ that you demand 7 s. 6 d. ?— We consider ourselves proprietors of the sdl. 176©. Has the 7 ». 6 «f. ever been paid?— It hto been paid. 1767. Lord Stanley.] You daim the right to impose that price, but you do not impose it in every case ?--That is so. > - , • 1768. Mr. Edward Eltiee.'] But inasmuch as it has been the interest of the Company to setde the kmd as fast as posable, they have withdravm from taking •the price, because they thought it for the oompanyV hiterest ? -^Yes. '1760. Mr. Gfvaon.}— What amount may the Company ever have received from Mttlers in that way by the sale of land l^-l think from the beginning of time it does not exceed from 2,000 /. to 3,000 /. 1770. Within your own government can you say what sum has been re- ceived ?— I cannot tell from recollection, but I think under 3,000i. 1771. In what iWiy was that money applied?— It was the property of the Company. - „ - 177a. It was applied to the general funds of Uie Company?— Yes ; part of the time it t^ent to Oie estate of Lord Selkirk j Lord Selkirk was tiwn tiiepro. prietor of the'soiL _ , . *^ J773. I asked BELBCfOOmmWR OH WB HUPftON'a Ml^ CQiarjkKY. '1773' I wked yoii» wlthiik the t&tie tM jm )faNlL>ew UAlto ^G. ^imfmi Wdenrtud tiiat the wm oi 8,000 L hu been r^edved from ut^den for ih* ' ' ■ ' — pwnjhaiBofjMidT-r^yes. tUi^if^j. 1774. Since your own goiumment? — Since mjr own govenunent. , 1775- Bfr. &AvAn/ i?fllfee.] k Iftst siaee the yew 1S84 ?^I tliink not so xnvoll since the year 1834. Ht 1770/ PwHoiiahr to 1834 -Itl^ so; more thanthatl n?xf V^rVMrfV rrvr I78^Perhsps not l,tXK) 2: ( or possiUy it may be 1,0001. 1786. Did that go into the genenl fittids m the fluids of the Comiua^?-— No; from the gmeral'' funds. There is an import duty of 4 pir cent, duogeal^le iipon all goods impdrted into the settlement of Red Blver. The Hudion'S Bay Company are the prin- cipal importers, and they pay the lai^^ pry unusual thbg. "* 1 874> l^ey are tatiafied to^ld tlie land ^thout a deed ^- Yea. 1875. Mr. Orogan.} 1 Understood you to etpUiin to us that there was a ceir- tain annual bodi reeeited br iSbm CoAKpany as duties of cwtonis, viit., four pet cent, t— Paid bv tb' rompenr. 1876. To wbtmf — To We trwisui^ cf the Hbd Rirar. 1877- Is the treasury (tf tUb Red lUver part and pare^ of die Cio^ipKiy ? 18781 Is not the apTernment wkhtbe frontier; 1885. If therefore a letter written at Assiniboia 6nd8 its way to the frontleir of the United States, the United States take cans of tiiat letter #nd i«^ fdnraid it to its destiiiaticm te ^ as it goes titrough their territories ?-T-Yef. 1886. Mr. Eiward JElUce.] There is a r^plar post, is not there ?^Ye8, twioe a month. 1857. I^r Qr«gm.'] Who maantalns that r^uhur mulf— The United States Govemm^t 1858. Is Ihere any mail or post, or despatch of any kind, maintained by the Hudsoo's Bay Company in their territories ?'--There are several expresses in the course of the season. 1 889. Is there any mail or post or despatch maintained by the HudsDn's Bay XJOmpany for the accommodation of the settiers or the public ?-—Ym, tbmis. I Sgii. WiQ you describe it ? — By canoe during the season of open water, and I think there are three or four expresses in tiie interior in the course of the winter. 1891. In the event of asettier wishing to send letters or anything of that sort by those despatches, een he do so ?— Decidedly. 1 892. Is he charged for it ? — There is a very snmll charge ; I forget what.^ 1 893. Hut he is chafed for it ?-.~l here is SMnetlung I think. 1894. Mr. Mttward EUice.] Is there a regular post maintained by the settiers between Red River and Pembina ? — No, there is no r^ular post i at least I am not aware that there is. 1895. Mr. Ria^uck.2 I have a letter in my hand which is to the following effect: "My dear Sir,— 'As by the new reflation regarcBng the posting of letters, it wUl be neoessiay that Mr. McLAughlin shotdd eetid up his letters open for my perusal, a thing which cannot be agreeable to him, vnUjrcu have the goodness td tdd him that in his case I shall consider it quite sumcient h»» sealmg tiie letters in my presence without any perusal on my part, and for that purpose I shall call in at your house to-morrow evening. Beheve me, (kc jB. JLane" That is dated asth December 1844 ? — It was quite unauthorised. 1896. Who was Mr. Lane ?— Mr. Lane was a clerk ihen in the serviieevof the Company. > 1 897. What does he mean by the new regulation : he says, " as by the new regulation regarding the posting of letters" ? — It wiis no regulation of the Company. . , 0,95. N 1898. Do Mr». • Mmkttif. -■if ^ mmvm&fmimfioBT^^ S if ft Stii^wj i*; iSot. Mm« M^v^iril']f%iiW d^^ a taif iQlpfitne^ ii>pi0» was xeMl^-«d s wutAiB^i. ^^^^^ tiB'ifli« bwt of y«M5 nmmhtadf^ ?^If tkmsf bar b^cai; rMdiMfdniir 7^^ l^dl it & to a rety soutU amouiit If a peraon retiri&g froiiirliieB^^ presseg a drtdte ti» gd pt^Vj^ JRiv«nr to iettl«v.«e .gigri^^ .<«^ liiit^ 6t;H«.3rou must beoQiB^ a pcorohW. ioC JlM*'* WMtdjbe #aj^ {iiiimiMt J^'^^' w^ei, and pay down 26 per cmt. upon the amount. ^j, : < m< c;^c. : 1 R>d. SupppalDg an location is made forland, what oom^df^nttiip ^Qf^^nui the authoriUes of the iConqiany in deten^nning whether to aeQ or wk^tMT to |7atitf*'''^^e:in«an9.of:thf?pB)Fde8gQi^^ . 1803. tf you think tfeaittaWetfthiiriW^ny*^ ^ 1 804. If you do jdot tlfUi^! tiiem ahk to Inqr. i^ymfftaiU<'-Ttusf«rmi, t we never disturb ajttybodyi* , ^ 1805. th«i you do no| mal^. pants (|f^ landJ-^We giy«i l^bem gran^inJien ._,. _- ,__ .. „ ^ _ _ -N0I Viiep^c^SfcahiK^ affioi4^ pay for landj^ we cannot iuterfiifeii^ , . , 1 808. Lord Jokn RtcuiBU.'] How do yoi* prev^t fistfutes between two a^m^ ters ?— We never have ant difptites upon the subject of lands, , ., 1809. Mr. OlAdtiom.\ Is tiiat oi^'tb tht abufiatft<*'(£the1aiid 1810. Mr Adderfey.}, Are there mtai}: squatters ?— They " art he&ljh ' aQ ''HftlBatters* • t - ■ i«*ii. 6Mof'ho#iiwiny?--^^P^^ 181 a. Are those 8,000 squatters ?-tNo: some have paid. 1813. What prqpoitiiHi of the 8,000 doyou suppose have t^ l-^-The ;mSle receipts for ^SL from'tHe beg^ifi^ pftwe/^ari c«^ 3,00d/. . Y8i4i Call yott tdl uj^ ai all^ in pviiM nunkbers, v^lwt pitipoiilon of thd families wbo have settted at the Red' Elver Sl^Hli^^t; bai^e pud for landl— Nineteen twentieths Kivehbt wddl , v. . . vi '■ 41^ 1815. How do you r^con«le the st^ipmlitits yptt hate jUst^l^^ ^ode of di^MD^ of Wd with'yowr itogw«T to Ctae^ 1^ land' wa*OT«e2l at sums varyfag froin 5*. to ft.ed. an acre, not i^ft'fee ^ple, but under iMses of 9^ yevnir— lite pa^es firequenlly seit thenwelvtt down on laml without cokisiidting us ; w* never disturb theitai 1S16. I asked you, in Queiaon 1207, "If I wahtied to btt^ land in llrt Bed Riter Settleineiit; tqjon vrt£itt6ihau could I bi^ it ?" Your ahswe^ was, "Fife ShilKnwianaiWer*-— YeSt , . '.^ 1817. Am I to uri^fewtAttd thafrif I artfliftft forit for nothing I should g^ 4 equally ?— If you were to squat, we sbotud not, in all prdbabilitjr, disturb ydu. "1818. Ybtfsidld thitt fi^ gritots wiwe giveni to thbse who appfied for u«m ? i-Yes itfltf. Squatters do not a^jply for free gr«it«, dbr*h^?-^We poltat owt the sitttations where they may squat; we do not pre them tstJeS uideii tliey mawi Isbme «i#lDBtiiittiettt for th« {ttj^ent: i8ao. Are we to understand that squatters squat iliift!* terms of agreemeM) *yite f^e Company ?-Ym > very frequsntty. , ^ . . „^ «i#k^f l8i1. I^r. EoebuekA'ftim Why are thiycdtedaqdatt^?— A raw without t^lcm^ into the country, lyi, " ^*«»*f «i«2?« *J««' ^*I>f^ StthI mS of payiflgj" we sa^«'Thew is ns^objtefltiontoyobr settling ^ms^ Mr, iiftfer%0 Aw thfere settlers in tte B*d Blfeif Settftinent who aauat without any agreement with the Conipitoy?^Many. ^^^rSl to uStend that 4 great proportiott of iftot yttu cdl squatters have squatted under an agreemeht with the Company r— No. -^ .^^ 1 824. Miy we understand distinctly what you mean by the Wti^J « squatter i W.A man who comes and sets himself dovrti uoon land without tttte. _^^_^ 1825. Is it possible that a squattjjr should settle under dwtmct terms of understanding with the Compatty, even tho,«h '''^^f;^^J^rff^^}^ Yes J very Ukely a man without means would sav, " Where t pre- vent it ]8a8. W^i)(mt affUiigl^ Cki|apaii7?— Ye?. 1839. Mr. BeS.) Tlwn w mm that tt»e dlffer^t^ M ^hctt, when Him settle wi^itit paj^ Jfgr j%>l||t«k4f :<**y 1mw^9 i»p agre^eptf—TChey hwe 90 »830. ,A^^>eyfeive|Miitl%s wJhepQ» |«^ry jp the |i«twe of ft free gnoit, is there anythmg f^^fip^the way o^lie^inse duty ?-^No,,no1;hin& 183?, Iko 4iiy liaqple jBttJe in the^^^p^i \^y territonr i^pan Uooues, without a pfQ^QflUtiN^ jt^ ?-~No, I ^^^^^^ 1A33. S^•IZo«6lt<^•^iBthatthef<^r|ttii^der^w^^ 4inip<«my part thereof, for^ 6r any pt^ o/t^ SfijA ti^:^.()tmy interest derived under the same, without the con- 1841. So that when a party buys land of you he cannot sell one particle of that land, or even let it ? — ^Yes ; but we never object to it. ' 1843. This is your indenture ? — ^"xcs ; that is our indenture. 1843. 1^0'^ that, in your yiew, tend to promote the settlement of the country ? — I do not think it can materially affect the settlement of the country. 1844. Dp you ffioojcf that depriving ja man of the power of alienating any part of his land, or eveai underletting it, conduces to the settlement of the cOiintiy ? —1 40 not beUeve that the setuers of the Red River pay much attention lb we tenna .of Jtlieir title deeds. 1845^ Do you fancy that preventing a naan from underlettii^, from selling pr parting with any portion of his interest in the lahd> conduct t6 thfi settlement oftheQountry}-— No: Idonotthinkitdoes. .', 1846. Do you thhijc it hinders the settlement ?— I think it dods nbik hinder it in the Red River, because there are no appiicants for land. ' ^1847. ^. £idiDard Etlke.^ With reference to the question which the Chdr- man put to you just now, with regard to the territory being colonised, I think your anawer was that you did not consider that the colonisation of any psirt of the teiiritory which the Government might think proper to reserve for that puipose woidd be prejudicial to the fur trade, if the exclusive right was pro- perty protected ?— Yes ; I think it would not be prejudicial. 1848. By the exdueive right being protected you mean the trade of the Indians being protected i — ^Tbe fur trade with the Indians. 1 849. ^ itb regard to the cases of starvation, I presume that the means pf the Company in suppcHthig the people in the territory very much depend upon the produce of the buffalo hunt and upon the orops raised at Red River ?— Yes, the produce of the cha^ and the nroducts at Red lUver. 1850. Woidd it be impossible tor the Company to undertake to provide for the general population tmrOUghout the coui^y hi times of scarcity ?—^vute ipipqssible. '-'v-if ■■.:.' '^''"'\'' o.'is. M4 •"■'r\:^ . 1851. Mr* Sir 6. a Mardt 18^. ^. y-:m. .1' : ■■■»*^. i:?' ;.W". M ,. r" y| ft i f i b .^illaff» i i lllNUTBaOF RVmBIslCfi TAKEH WlEOaE THE waL •fttiSiwi. yo» 4«i««antof lt?---Yeii there wm no iwgiOjtioa JpJ** loiiii ^r IthaanJ^iMit^mi^wt faro hikd it bi«are fa cdctenee.^. ^4SfrS^^S^SrX Md«» then,, and who jomn.^ 'v'/i': tf^^^H^S^ Bp?^ feiMt.1^ l£3&.ki I c«mot; .41^^ whdtt^ toll ki^iMrib h»Te resided in that pMt of the «om '^»«»« _. "^S The tetter spealBrf new H«»da»^ SS«r^l1^^ IflS not fa the iet^ ^^'^.aoj^ Tn^ «^wer. I «a. yo»v do yoa la«>» .^bi«g of tb0« iJS2oBf ^-Ntt. I do wJTa* lewt I c^^^ *1Ta^ OZoilttMM i Thte letter, purpofttog to he *r»t«,hy ♦ pewon who '^*^-2^^Sri«ilIidSl5it wScottntey, and written to wialiie^ ^£Sio«, lut^ey wew not contfaued for any time ; they weie. rery Bk^fyi **'''*"'*** _«. viL«» t:h«a iniiwr did vou ever hear fa the courae of your expe- ^J"^^^^^^^^-^^^^^^ GoWtemtorij. IlS5JrtdS^tt^?nS^ «nder whicb the Con^y had &e puwer to, ^t^tSeTtSof^^tid-alMt-^Never. Inev^lmewan^^ ii , L«i^ii«;;i>iti«> thi^ was 8tt<*l a rWJlatkm aa k h^re men^Med i^ Mj^ T '^'L^i^o,S^T1eS£i^in»de!--V^^ ^^^^^S^^^Sve forthe ti.,«.befa| a^ H** toveiv>||t JS^SKWlSl**^ hy me a^thoritie* midl?— 'Of i. «K»ild not K competent i disallowed K very fw i(jici. Then 7919. Thc9 th»t i» fUf^rent fron your aanrofi^ ioe, thi^ H wouMl^^ike&ree years ?->No; I never made sueh an answer. ' 1920. Mr. OUidetmie.} Do yon eousider that the Gov«uor and CooAcfl of Red River would have ht&^ ttgtXlj oompetent to make sudb arn^tton if they had thought fit ?-Ithink not. 1991. Mr. Gr6ikn:\ 1 think jm told us, that a lette wth|<^. shouUtM its way to the £rcaitiffl>, to Pembina, could be despstcheft then^ Itfabknot. '• '^■^' •994. Ihe dManee, you said, wsM about O&mil^s ?->-Abottt fiO nsOb. 1995. b it oose a wed(| er enee ar-^uvontfa, dr once fai a season ; erho# often is it that the mail in the United States part of 'the territory is #q^«tllhabctr '••-^taoe' a fortnight' ■ - ' ' ^^ ioa6. And )^ th«^ b no proriirian by tiie Goyeraor and Oinuica of Asi&iboia for tranmnitting e letter /qpilariy to the frontier at all?— Nat at bMt I con not sMtfre thst thei^ b. ■> < 1987; I^adced "you a genisrali qiie^bn, whether thwe was any post w dbpatch by which letters could be soii throu^ the Hudson -s Bay tenitoi^. Maintained ly tiie GoVernnieM^ and>ytMi said that there were eanoeS and boats occasteaiaUy r—Yes. 193ft. Do those expresses, or eanoes, start periodicaUy ?— Tbe^ do. i9St9. When >— Two or tbnae'tinies in the coarse' of the sMUKm of qpen water, and I think once a month (at least it was so when the troops ijnsre (here> dwitfS the winter; not so fre^pteutfy^no^. t itV ? trf' .v' v s . a" 1930. Wlttt dp. you catt the period of open water ?>~VMin the month of May until the monui of Qotdber;. 1931. That b four months ?<^Kvem0hths. , 1939. llien there are opportunities of sendbg letters two or three times dining the ftn^ 8«iS(m?^ Yes. 1933. And onee a month during the Imd season?'^!' am not sure that tiie nufl beontinued so frequnitly asonee a month during tlus winter. 1934. Det you know how often it b sent; my object b to ascertain th4 exact infonnati'ibr' instance, exist in the Hudson's Bay territory?— Throu^ the United States regularly. > -» - 1935. I do not ask as to the United States? — ^The time ocdupied from Bed* River to the Sault St Mary, where there b the first regular commmieataon, b so long, that parties will not be ditposed to send their letters in that waf ; for itistance, they would send them by the UMted States. ^ 1936. Would tiiat arise from the uncertainty in ,the means of sending thu:} : The uncertainty and the length of time occupied in conveying the letteis. 1937. I see ill your evidence ypu state, tbi^ you have travfl}e4u^i;<>mfprt William, at the head of Lake [Superior to Assiniboia, about 40 times r-nT^ I think so. , . ..^ 1 938. Of course you know that road remarkably well ?-— Yes, pixitty weU, . '1939. Are there steamboatewUch now navigate to Fort William, on tim head of the lake, from Canada r — No ; there is no regular steamboat comma- nieation. Steamboats have passed roimd on pleasure excursions. 1940. Do they go periodically 9-^ No. 1 > 1941. If it wei^ stalted that they went once a week regularly^ would iii be correct? — It b not the case. 1 949. Are there steamboats of any nation that traverse the lake periodically? —On the south-west side of the lake, the American side of the lake, there are steamboats which pass, I think, once or twice a week ; on the north-efist side of the bke there Is no tiraffic ; there is no communication. •■■ , 1943. With those boats passing once or twice a week, as you describe i||^ where is the uttermost limit of thdt journey on the lake r-o-I cannot exactly t 957' Mr. Adderley.'] Did you ever hear of Mr. Dunn's journal being burnt ?, —I never did. 1958. Or destroyed ?-^I never heard of it. 1959. Mr. Oordm.] I wish to ask you a few questions in continuation of thoae which I put to yoit <» Thursday with respecit to the Red River S«t; tlonent. I tbmk you said that one of the causes which rendered the Red River uiiiidtitble, in your opinion, for settlement, was the prevalence <^ great floods there ?— Yes ; the prevalence of floods and of droughts. i960. Wbat is the lengtii of country into which the Red River Settlement extends along the river r — About 80 miles; perhaps not quite so much as iSOndkBa* ' ig6i. Mr. Bdward E/tiei.] I think you said 50 the other day ? — Yes. iQ0a. Mr. Gordon.] Is the w'nole of that length of the river equally subject to obods?— The whole of that country has been overflowed m my recol- lection. 1963. Am I to understand yoU to say that the whole of that 50 miles is equally subject to be devastated by extensive floods ? — Not equally so ; because the lower grounds are more subject to flood than the higher grounds. 1964. Is Ksa ^^H tl R "■,/■ hi is it to a( th th It bri Ri at by ant bee im{ SELECT OOMMrmiE ON THE HUOSON^S BAY COMPANY. 191 ; burnt ?^ subject y recol- mil«8 is because 1964. Is 1964. It not the lower part dt the river, new Foit Qiuny, ipoire i4ei«ted,tlMin ^rO^ the u^orpart, and tfaovfore ten lubject to floods ?~~Tbe lower piut is mor* eleTated than the upper part. 1965. And therefore less 8ul;$ect to flood ? — Yes. 1966. Is there a marked diflinreoce between the two in tiiait respect ? — Not • mwrked difference ; perbi^w ei^t or ten feet. 1967. Has the Strict of the Gfaud Bapi^ ever been covered by flopdaf-r- No. 1968. That is free from floods?— Yes ; that is at a gn^ distaab? fjcoiA Red Biver. f, 1969. Mr. Edward Ellke.} How far is it ?— I should think from 900 tp 9(|iqi miles ; it is the Grand Raidd of Lake Winnipeg ; it is the outlet of ^ SaakiAt- chewan River. t.;it97o. Mr. Gordon.^ Is there not a pises upon the Red Rirer termed th« Grand Rapid ?— There is a place upon the Red River termed the R^pida fd the Red Rtror; but there is a place known in the country aii the Grand Rapi^, which is the Grand Rapid of Lake Winnipeg ; the outlet, 40J MINUTES OF BVIIIISMCB TAKEN 9EF09B THB 8>r 49. AiMyMMk 4%?. 1091. And with t^t h«v« iSbtf «iade iQada thcaitelvfet r-^WiUi that the settlera have nuule roMts. 1 99^* AiKWtt iwhftt TOH^Na* of flafiw itf itMdi, idiwIA you wjFi hn'vitJMnl mads under the authority td the Oooniaiiy N—Tbe Compaay nudle no rowls. 1993. Mr. Edward EiUm.} Tbty iwy for thstr bdag made?— They etm. tr&ute diefar ahare of thetax. 1994. Mr. Qoirdm.\ You OMatioiied iii your cvidcitoe oq ThtunkUy, ihe Compaay alfam tiie intereit of the day, t think it is four per cent., to any parties who may chooae to leave their money in their hand^, ortbey wUi pay their bdbmeet aa they aoorue, froia year to year, as they may desire." Does that apply only to the swvautt of the CoauBoay, or does it extend to any «nd wrhos^ hmd they claim ; 1 do not refer to the half. iMSlej bat to'-the poiritive^'ii^ffian poptdattoa ?-'0v^ 25,000 ofthatlhdian ^tepulatioBwehavenocentrOl'i namely, tHe nhiri tribes. They wander from the M^ouii to the hanks of the Sadtaitohewan-; they^ are a bold, warlike people, over whom we have no control. sooa; HmtkapartofthemiW^ respect to those who hunt for you, you use no means for their intfmctioQ f -^There are religious missions in various pari»4>£t^ cOm^. 3003. You contribute a very small sum, but that is fbr them to rainlstcir to jmur AKI aftations and fai^uries, not a»missionarie« ^-^ISes. 2004. You ^e no specific help for the Indians } — ^The country is so poor that they cannot form settlements 1 (he missions must be immediately in the neigh* bourhood»of the estabUshments. : 301*5^ Arevweto undostatid tfast'^eOompany glveno aidi^iedfically finr'the instruction. of. the Indfam-^ At their own expense. 2009. With!noaasi8tMiiioefro8iyovun#ves for that |)|uipQsef*r-I amf nota^Mre that there has been aity. 2010. Can-yotttdQme^f amr case where you. have contributed for sehool- Eooma lor the benefit of the Indiana ?*^ We are quite ready to receive Indiaa children at our own establisijdnents when they can be obtained. 20J1. I donot nee any reeerdof any eooiaributions out of the futids of the vGSompany for the erocstion: of these ik^ooIs? — llwre is no immediate outlay coni> nect^ with the erection of schools at any of our establishments. We have a ^seg^idar estabtiihmevt of peqple who do all th$ work about the establishment ; they build hou»e« and erect schools, and ivhateveir else may be necessary. 3012. At York, have you an evening school, conducted by one of the Coqa* "V -J , •■■/-■ ....... pany's SELECT COMMltrSB ON YltB flVt)«ON'$l ftAY COMPANY. 103 notavMure • W«cli 1857. 1 0nMiM JMkrmt pany's Mtruits (iuring tke wifttev, fer t)w boMfll of tht IntfaM and otben Sit A. tmftem. reibleiit at th« fort ?— Yes. = Ju 1 3. Wai tiM»t formod ttodtir tha dtnetUm. of the CmHpiBjr ?~-¥m. aoi4. la that canried out ot any other stalkin ^~-I tfainik at Morway Honse, «bd at all the ettablialiiMnts whn* ttrare are nMma. 2015. Do you assert that there are evening tdboatt condMlid Ml^ A» 1 air the Company ?—The»a to no expense Maneeiad iridiil At tile Mtablidinients where th«r« are ntsdonatiea TveftMuile edveatton iy «mry meant tto our powar. 3016. It ivould be very easy to anferoe ihto at all IbaslMtfaM, wooliltMt? —Not to enfiKlivc it, but to encourage it. 20 1 7. And you would do 80>? — Yw, we mold d^aai aota, M» it9fbiidi,] Is thira a HoeiNw to fitWfl^ Cp«da gfutad bf the Company ? Supposing that I being a settler at the Red Hmt BcttlpMBnt WitkA Ip, M&^ gnodt tor LondnHi, to there atot a Uce«oe gnuited Igr the Hudson's Bay Company to enatdp m« to do solit^-Ko^ I am nsit awnra tint thereto. We firdnt all gneds that eome to us if thwe to room in oop shipping. 301^ I wflJ fipa you a copy of a licence to freight goods. It to signed by A Company's officer { it to signed " Alexander Cnrutie^ diief fietctor of the HonqiUMble Hudaon's. Bay Campany." " I hereby Moense ■■■■ • , of Bed ItiTer Settlement to carry on the b«|diieM of a frdi^iter between Bed River Settlement aforesaid and xorii Facitorfl Provided* Itowercr, that thto Ucenee shall be null and void for every l^gal purpose from-dilfedate if he traffic in anything whatever beyond tiie limits of the said seraement, excepting in so fiEur as he may do so under any municipal regulation, or if he traffic in furs within Rupert's Land or without, or if he usuitp any privilege whatever of the Hudson's B^y Company, or tf he become, or continue to be the erafdoyer, or the anentt or tM partner «i any person who may traffic or usurp, or majr hwre tnmdied or usurped as aforesaid, or of any such person^ debtor. Given .41 Fort Gariy thto 39th dur of July 1845, Aktmder CkrittU, Chief Factor [di the Honourable Hudson's Bay Company." Are you aware of any such doouments as thto (the *amt beinjf tkum to tke fVUtuMs) f — I am not aware of them« I do not think thto to Mr. Christie's writing* and I never heard of the regidation. 20SO. I think you are or have been governor of Rupert's Land. In 1846, were you at the Red River settlement f — It is very likely I was there in 1846 $ 1 do not exactly recollect. 2021. You had a council there, I 8iq>po8e ? — Yes, in all probability. 3022. That ooundl was held on the i 0th of June r — ^Very hkety. 3033. I see that you passed certain resolutions at that time ; have thoae reso- lutions been allowed or disallowed ?•— If you will allow me to see the resolutions I may have some recollection of them. I cannot exactly call them to mind. We pass resoludons for our own operations. 2024., Yon do not bear in mind whether any of those rest^tions wnre dtor allowed or not?— I think the Company ^d disallow some of our reaolution% 4)ittt I fonfet exactly "ivhatJ^ey were. 3025. ^iB you be kind enoudi to inform us why, amongst your resdutiiMMi •yoiitiresolyed !&i8» " Tlu^ all oU^r imports from the United l^ingdom for the aforoHdd setttefnent sliaU* before delivery, pay at York Faotcqry a dnty of^SO per cent, on their prime cort, provided, however, that the governor of the SjSttlement be hereby anthoriMd to exempt firom the same all su^ importers, or any of them, from year to year, as can be reasonaulj believed by biin to b^ve neithcar tjraffickedio furs., themselves since the 8th Aay of December 1844, nor cnaUid others to do so. by iUe^lly or imigriqperly supplying them wiU» tnk^ng artiekMS of any description.*' Do you recollect passing any such resolutioott tii^ r-r-I do not recdlect suph a rMt^titm ; it may have been so. aoitd. In your present view of the matter, do you think that that would con« duoe to the settlement of the country 1-A think it would not. 2047. Therefore, if passed at that; time, it would have (^qposed the settlanent <^. the country ?<— No { I do nipt th^ji; ^ wwild ba;i;i^ mate; toUy^4|i8ei4ed the settlement of the country. ; J •*1' 2038. Not prohibiting t^ importation of goods;, except upon a duty of 30 per cent,, and .tb»t from the United Kingdom ?— i do nut recollect that it was ever enforce^ -r /< •, . Ves. U052. Mr. Eduard Ellice.] But the money is actually expended ?— Thell*^^; money is expended decidedly. 2053. Lord Stanley.] You were asked whether you had done anything for the improvement of the navigation ; I will now ask you whether there is any trade with the western country which would justify a large expenditure upon navigation ? — None ; there is no trade which would justify an outlay. 2054. Is there any trade at the present time which may not be effectually and satisfactorily carried on in cnnoes ? — Between Ciuiada and the interior the. trade that is conducted from Canada must be entirely by canoe ; but the com- munication 'y<:v m: '■'-'^: , ' ■11 ■ :ly'n !,,> ■$> 'W r»f-> 1^.'' SELECT CX)MMITTEK ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 105 I drawn vi/^^ivv- ley at .%■;:' [River alony i>inted pinted re? — -The Is for .1^: *%■■ Is any t- - lupon lually Ir the loom- lation i- munication with England is by boat from York Factory and Moose Factory, the Sir a. two dq)6t8 upon the coast. 3055. I was referring to the Red River, and that part of the country ?— t Mmh 1857. With Canada the communication must be by canoe. With England by boat to the coast. 3056. You have been asked questions with regard to the pippliances of education and civilization which you have provided ror tiie Indian tribes. Have you ever considered yourselves as a Company cluu^ed with the education or civilization of those tribes ? — No, we do nOt consider ourselves charged as a Company, but we contribute nevertheless. 3057. If I understand your former evidence rightiy, you have no control over those tribes, except that of being able to ^cmde otiier traders from the country ? — ^None. 3058. Are you well acquainted vrith the country to the west of the Rocky Mountains } — ^Yes ; I have travelled through that country repeatedly. 3059. Are you able to form any opinion as to how much of it, or whether any of it, is fit for colonization ; I speak of the mainland; not of Vancouver's Island ?— Very littie of it I think is fit for settiement and colonization north of 49*, from the ru^ed character of the country ; it is an exceedingly rugged and mountainous country. 2060. Do you mean by that, that thesoil is unfit for culture, or that ther6 are no means of transport to the iiea ? — There are patches of soil near the rivers in certain localities where agriculture might be carried on upon a small scale ; but generally speaking, the country is exceedingly wild and rugged and mountainous north of 49". : ^ **\,' 2C^i. What are the winters there; are they severe?— The winters are not ■ so se .ere as east of the Rocky Mountains. 2063. Assuming the soil to be suitable, is it probable that wheat crops would not ripen in that coimtry?— I think they would not; there is too much moisture ; it is exceedingly humid. 3063. Have any experiments been made in the neighbourhood of the forts ■'■3^':.^^ there? — At Port Langley there have been experiments made, and grain has ' ■ been raised upon a very small scale ; potatoes are very abundant ; and likewise further north. !,;Ii, : 2064. In the event of colonization being attempted there, is it likely that any difficulty would arise as regards the Indians ? — The Indians are very warlike and very numerous, and I think they might be troublesome to settiers in the first instance, until they were sufficientiy numerous to protect themselves. 2065. The Company has had more trouble with them west of the mountains than in the east ? — Much more trouble. They are difficult of management. 2066. I think about two-thirds of the whole Indian population reside west of the mountains 7 — I think about 80,000 ; the whole population being about 139,000. 2067. Therefore on account of those tribes, putting other difficulties out of the question, there are only some parts of the country where it would be possible for settlers to establish themselves ? — Yes. 3068. They could not do so in small numbers or at outlying posts ? — They could not. ^*'- 2069. In the event of any part of that western territory being constituted a colony apart from the Hudson'^ Bay Company, would it be easy to mark a boundary, so that the establishment of a colony there should not interfere with the exclusive rights of the Company? — I think there is no room for a colony of any extent north of 49°, upon the west side of the mountains. The character of the country is exceedingly rugged. 2070. In the event of any portion of the territories being set apart for purposes of colonization as a colony independent of the Company to the west of the Rocky Mountains, would there be any difficulty in so defining the boundary of such a colony as to prevent any disputes or difficulties with regard to the point at which the rights of the Company terminated ? — You mean the British territory I presume north of 49*. 2071. I mean, of course, the British territory ? — I think there is no portion of that country north of 49" adapted for settlement, 3072. Mr, lioebuck.'] That is not the question; the question is, whether there ere any means of marlcing out the boundaries of the colony, supposing that a colony should be determined upon ; supposing it should be determined to make a colony wje!»t of the Rocky Mountains, taking the southern boundary to bo 0.25. / \ "'•■•'.■ ;/"-V'^', ,■■,"*■>::*' .\''''. ■• O ,.- '■ ,■■; ''■'•■.: ,:■'„■■•. .the >;*>■ "■■:' •■' -1 .ffl- :s. 4ii;'j':- :V' ^■: ■*^\;- '*, '>■ ^o6 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE m 8ir^ ANMptAM. the boundary between it and tibe United States and tbe eastern botindacjr, -^ -^ the Rocky Mountains, it there any posidbiUty of finding a northern boundary ?— a March 1857. ] do not Imow of any other means 01 finding it tlian determining it by observation. The countiy is not so n^arlcM in its character as to form any boan^btfy. 2073. TVreisnoriTer?— Th^reis.noriver. 2074. With respect to the climate, you say that you have travelled, in that country ; is not tlM climate of America, on the west of the Rodnr Mountauu, similar, in point of foe^ to that of Europe, in the same latitude ?— I think -there is more moisture on the shores of the F&oific than upon the eastern dde. 2075. That is not my question ; my question is, whedier takfang latitude for ■ btitude in Europe, and on the west of the Itocky Mountains in America, the dimate in the same latitude is not the same ? — I havo been such e length of time out of England, that I scarcely recollect what the climate is. : 2076. i am not talUng of England r I am talkii^of Emrope ?— I eannot tell. 2077. We will speak of the climate of Vancouver's Island j do you know that?— Not weffl. 2078. Is not it a fine climate } — It is a very good climate, I believe. 2079. ^^ will grow pretty nearly anything, vrm not it ? — On the southern part of the island. 2080. It will grow wheat? — ^Yes ; on the southern side of the island. 2u8i. And on the nortliam too } — 'The northern is » rugged, mountainous country, where you can grow nothing. 2082. But it would not be prohibited by climate ? — There is a great deal of moisture ; there are torrents of rain. 2083. So there is in Rngland ?— I think there is more on the west side of the mountains than in Englaita. 2084. Lord John RuuelL] Is the quantity of moisture such as to nrevent the culture of wheat ? — It is such as to prevent the ripening of grain, I tnink. 2085. Mr. Edward EIHee.'] But at Fort Vancouver, on the Columbia, in the Oregon, are there very fair crops ? — Yes ; never productiTe crops ; we used to look upon a return of ten or twelve as very fair crops (ior (^egon. 208^. With reference to Fort Langley, which is near the southern boundary of the British Territory and where there is a fort, I think you said the other day, that there were about 100 square miles of level ground there ^ — Yes, I think so. '.'087. Could not a colony be planted there ? — It might be. 208 s. Is there any thing remarkable in the climate there different horn what it is in Vancouver's Island ? — I believe there is more moisture. 2089. Nearer the mountMUs ? — Yes. : i- 2090. Mr. Groffan.} You are making a comparison between Fort Langley and Vancouver's Island ? — Yes. 2091. You say that there is rather more moisture at Fort Langley ?— Yes.. 2092. Does the thermometer show any difference in the temperature ?— The further north we go, the degree of cold is greater. 2093. I am speaking of those two situations ?— Yes ; the one is in 50°, and the other is in 46 i°. (a) 2094. Praetically, is the heat there very great in summer? — In the Columbia it is. 2095. — In the part called Caledonia, there is the Columbia River ; that is on the west side of the Rocky Mountains ?— Yes. 2096. I am not speaking now of the American territory, but of the British above 49°. Is the heat in that part of the country very great in summer ?--«,. Not very great ' "^ 2097. I perceive that in the account of your travel, speaking of Fort ColvUe, you speak of its being an exceedingly productive, and well circumstanced place ? ; — Yes. 3098. And that what you describe as a fine season is a damp season ?— Yes. 2099. That is owing to the great heat which prevails below 49° ?— The great drought, the great length of time they are without rains, they are weeks and monuis' together without rains. 2100. Does the same observation apply to the land immediately above) ,49°^ f;—-Upon the coast there is more moisture than inland. >' -u. 2101. Is the quantity of moisture sufficient to destroy the ripening of the 'M: ^y- »: -'■ftirjife., "M j^ grain ? — ^Yes, I tlunk so ; in some seasons I think it is likely. •t ^ ' .ir.'W'* ■ 0)02. But ^-r^^ (a) This answer had refbrcoce to Fort Vancouver, on the Columbia River. -t*'-:^:.- %■ <'JW1',1 ■ -:>tt.i., .V. SELECT COMMITl'EE ON THE HUDSON'S BAT COMPANY. 107 lundary, dary?— srvation* lintiuit mntainB, -I think im side* ^tude foi; erica, the leagih of tnottell. Ott know therniMurt d. lUntainous eat deal of Bide of the )revent the bink. ibia, in the we used tQ ihoundary other day, I think so. from what '■>-'»■■ \J angley and ?-Ye». ure ?— The in 50°, and llumbiaitis. that is on I the British lummer?— Fort Colvile, jiced place ? in?— Yes. -The great I weeks and above 49° ? ling of the 2103. But ';'„^::;i,.-t^..':Vf'' ■fi"' 31 02. jBut as a feneral rule i — As a general rule I tiuck the great moisture Sir 6. would materially affect the crops. — — — — . 3103. What nunr be the ^Bstaace of Fort Cobrile south of the 49th degree of ^ ^^""^ **<7' latitude, the boundanr ? — ^I thbk Fort Colrile is about 48 or 49 degrees. 3 1 04. About one degree southward of the boottdBiv f —Yes. 3105. Do you consider that the difference of one degree would make such a diffierence in the temperature of the place ?~~Thereli more moisture on the cdast than inland. 3 1 06. Fort Colvile is not on the coast ? — No, it is inland. 3107. I want to draw a comparison between Fort Colvile and the same land on the British side of the boundary. IVhat circumstances exist to make a dif- ference in lAxe climate and (he adaptability for colohizatik>n qf thv two places ?— The climate west of the mountains is warmer, I think, than is the same parallel east. '. ' ■ 3 1 08. Would not that part of the British dondnionB north of the 49th degree of latitude, but in the same parallel of longitude with Fort Colvile, be equally l^pted for colonization as Fort Colvile itself? — ^No ; the diraate of the west ride is warmer, there is much more heat> but very &de level land. Slog. Supposing a colony were planted on the 49th degree of latitude, quite close to Fort Cohrue, on the Columbia River, what circumstances exist which vould prevent that ctdony so planted being equally weH favoured and well circumstanced as Fort Colvile itself?—! do not see that it would be materially prevented. I am not aware of any circumstances whk^ should cause it. 3110. Then would this description in your judgment apply to it, "Cattle thrive well, while the crops are abundant. The wheat, which weighs from 63 to 65lb8. a bushel, pelds 20 or 30 returns. Maize also flourishes, but does not ripen till the month of September. Potatoes, peas, pats, barley, turnips, melons, and cucumbers, are plentiful." That is the description whieh you ^ve of Fort ColvUer— Yes. 31 1 1. Alid you do not see any circumstances which would prevent a colony on the British territory opposite Fort Colvile being so well favoured ? — No ; the climate is not so warm. 3113. Iherefore it would, in your opinion, hold out equal inducements as regards the ripening of grains and fruits as Fort Colvile itself? — No. I think the climate of the Pacmc is more favourable U^ cultivation than the same parallel on the east side. .%/ , .-¥ 2113. Mt. Edusard Ellice.] I suppose if a popuUtion were found to want a ^W*' " " settlement of that kind, and chose to go there, they could raise crops very well for their own support ? — On either the one side or the other, I think ; on either ,^ >,.; . side of the mountains. ':|!^;?* ■ 2114. Mr. Grogan.'] Have any attempts ever been made to establish a colony, or any setdement at all to the eastward of Fort Garry on the Assini- v ;» * borne, up Liake Winnipeg, Rainy Lake, or in that district ?~No attempt has %^*- been made to form a settlement at Rainy Lake. j?. - 2115. Or to the eastward of it ? — ^To the westward there may have been a few , > ' .. settlers at Manitobah, within 40, 50, or 60 miles of Red River, -t^i 'tfiii;^ ii|U :-i' j^; . 21 16. In fact, there is not a sufficient population to render those localities, which you have described as so beautiful, an object to settlers ?— 'That is the feet. -J.v^Yjt^^ : '■"■v 2117. But if it should become an open colony, and settlers should go thewv ^ '■ ^g^^i^ there are no physical circumstances in the countiy in your judgment to prevent '" ^ iT^- their success ^ — No; 1 think not. The country is not favourable for settle- ■;;ii,<:3' ,ment, I think, about Red River. , . ,/''■-.. '''^■' 21 18. Why?— The crops are very uncertain. 'it-:t^M'^ta<'Jil)||^|>>*ir'Vv\fet»^j^ 2119. You have nothing to adduce beyond what you have stated already ? — Iv''''-"" - No. '^'''-'4' 2 1 20. In the extent of land between the Rainy Lake and Fort William, on ^ . the Kamenistiquoia, at the head of Lake Superior, what may be the height to . ' which the land rises ; is it 800, 1,000, or 2,000 feet, or what?— 1 think about 800 feet above the level of the lake. . 2121. Do any serious practical difficulties or impediments exist in making ,J.. that navigation, which you have traversed with your canoes, a regular course of ''' j;<,,V navigation?— I think there are insuperable difficulties, unless the "Bank of England were expended" upon the improvemeiit of the country. Near the ^ !'SV^ ■■"n •*- kl; ■>;. rF..*-ii| :i^- 0.25. ..A' 02 ■'.V 4 Ji\ ■'<';.: • ■*ij ■;':;'•"'-?*''•* I f^*kl ' ViC ■ «Jf.»! height ,:-'.l. ■!Ww?(^?i' I "■•i*"^ .,S Sir 6. Sii^$m. • Mkrch 1957. 168 WlNOtBS OF SVfDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE height of land tiierei is no watar; the riven are shoal, and the soil is had. I ttdnk the difficulties are Ter7 ^reat. 3122. To how many miles of oouutrir, in your judgment, would jronr present remark apply ? — I think, abo^t 309 miles. ^; Si 1 33. As much as that ?•— I think sn. 3134. You iiave jg^ven the entire distance from Assinibji^ to the head of Lake Superior as about 500 miles ?— Yes. ' 2135. And fott thhik that in 300 of those 500 miles, there would be such difficulties ?< — ^Yes. Mr. m/fioM Jir«nMrgAairj called in ; and Examined. Mt.W.KtnughaH' Lord John Huasell.] WHERE do you reside?— At Chicago. What is your bui^ess or occupation^ — I am a General. Merchant 3136. 3137. there 2138. Have you anv statement to make with rtxard to the Hudson's Bay Company, or their temtory, or their trade ? — ^The Chici^ people are running: sleutt-lioiits now towards that part of the coirotry. 2i3p. Where from, and where to ? — From Chio^ to Superior City, Onto- gsnan and Marquette; steamers also ply fiMm Deibroit and Collingwood to those cities. 3130. Mr. Edward ElKce."] Are you a native of the States? — I am an Irish- man. 2131. Lord Jokn MusteU."] Have you any statement to make with regard to that matter ?— I should like to see the trade opened up there in the Hudson's Bay country; 2132. That is to say, you would like to see an end put to any exclusive privi- leges ?— Yes, either in liand or trade. 2133. Have you found any obstacles practically to exist to the trade which ybu livish to promote ?— There is every oppoSitioa thrown by the Company in the way of our traders there. 2134. Of what kind? — Every opposition. They are not allowed to trade there. This last season 500 waggons started from Pembina, or the Red River Settlement, and sold their loads of wheat, tallow, beef, and other produce at either St. Paul or St. Anthony, I do not know which, returning with goods of Amaican and British manufacture and other produce back to the Red River. That is the first direct trade the Red River and the Company's country have had with the United States. 2135. Were not they allowed to dispose of the goods which they had bought in St. Paul's ? — A good many of the goods were British manufactures ; but they had to pay duties on going into the American territory at very high rates, which woidd not be the case had they gone through Canada to the Red River Settlement. ''3136. How could they have reached the Red River Settlement ' through Canada ? — You can get goods shipped direct from London, Liverpool, Glasgow, or any port in Great Britain, to the extreme end of Lake Superior, at 37. 10 s. a ton, in one bottom, or with transshipment. ; they pass through die St. Law- rence, a Canadian river. 2 1 37. Mr. Grogan.'] Can you specify any port on Lake Superior ? — Any port on the Upper Lakes, either Lake Michigan or Lake Superior, ports in Superior, . stated above. 2138. Lord John RtuselL] How would you have the goods conveyed from there to the Red River Settlement ?— You would have plenty of people to waggon them, or bring them across. I suppose the expense would be about 8/. or 10/. a ton; it would not be greater than that of waggons from Red River to St. Paul. 2139. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Have you been between Fort William and Red River ? — No. 2140. Is not that the route which the goods would take ; how do you know that goods could be conveyed between Fort William and Red River for 10 1. a, ton ? — The Americans would do it. (2141. What authority have you for saying so?— The statement of people in Chicago connected with steamboats. 2142. Have •-«gff •* 'I- SBLECr COMMrrtEB ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 10^ V, from tple to about i Red id Red know 10^. a ople in Have 'ifes 9149. HaT» th^ e rgone that route? — Their steamboats go to Superior Mt^W.K«rMigi^ city. — ___— 2143. Mr. Qrogan;} Where is the town of Superior ? — ^The town ol Superior « Much 1857. h at the very extreme end of Lake Superior. 3 1 44. Is it at Fond du Lac ? — Yea. 8nperior is a new town, commenced last year, and it will this year have a population oi 10,000 pewle. 3145. Mr. BelLl Then you think it would be possible to make a rimilar settlement on the British shore, if it was not for the monopoly of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — Certainly. 3146. Lord John RtuseiL] When yuu speak of the goods going in waggons, do you mean in the summer season only? — ^The lakes are only open from about the middle of April, and the lake communication closes at Chicago about the let of December. In Lake Superior, I suppose it closes about a month earlier. In winter goods might be carried in sleighs. 2147. In what part of the year do you suppose th^ goods could go in waggons between Lake Superior and the Red Rirer Settlement? — In summer by waggons, winter by sleighs. I beg to say that the Chicago people, the owners of ^e steamboats, are beginning to open a line from the extreme end of Lake Superior to the Red River Settlement. I think I had better read an extract from a Chicago paper which I have got to-day. It is .headed, " A New Project. — In the Senate of Micubigan, on Thursday, General Cass presented the petitions of Jean Lafever, Robert Mallon, and Alexander M'Lain, asliing for a Government exploration and survey of the Pigeon and Arrow Rivers, of Lake Superior, and of the route from the mouth of those streams, or near them, to Kainy Lake, on the United States boundary line, with estimates of the cost of so improving by locks and camtls the 'communication between those waters as to mi^e a practicable navigation from the Lower Red Biver of ,(] the North, vi& Lake Winnipeg, to Lake Superior. They represent that, at a reasonable cost, the whole vdley of the Red, Assiniboine, and Saskatchawair rivers can be connected with the waters of Lake Si^rior." 3148. Mr. Edward ElUee.} Through what territory would that route to which you have referred be made } — Partly British and partly American ; the chain of lakes and rivers separate both countries. 2149. You stated that one of the obstacles to trade was the duties put upon goods entering into the States ; how would you avoid those duries ? — By land- ing the goods in British territory. 2150. You just now said that the road was to be opened up partly on British territory and partly on American, between Fond du Lac and Red River ; if it is to be partly on British territory and partly on American, how do you get rid of the duties ? — The goods would go in under bond in that case. 2151. Why could not they go in under a bond by the other route ? —They ^^tiv4i have never tried it yet in that way, but a great business would be done inife'J;!: that country if free trade were alloweid there. <;'. f^ 2152. Mr. Blackbum.'j Is there any duty except the American duty at pre- ;;;?.-: . sent ? — ^The Canadian duty is very light; the American duty is very great* t>5 ., I am not aware of any duties at Red River. '''-. i^V 2153. I thought you spoke of the duties being paid on the goods going into the American territory t — What I mean to say is, that on the goods put at St. Paul into the 500 waggons, the sellers of the goods had paid the American ni.^' ' ^ duties. ■ '■^"''**|< 2154. Then it was the American duties which made it disadvantageous, not ' \^. anything done by the Hudson's Bay Company? — That business was done against the wishes of the Hudson's Bay Company. 21.^5. Did they impose the duties or the Americans ?— The Americans. „^ai ; 2 1 56. Mr. Grogan.\ Am I to understand you that this caravan which crossed from Pembina to St. Peter's, or St. Anthony s, purchased goods ? — They sold at St. Anthony the productions of their own country, and they bought at St. Anthony their groceries, wines, woollens, linens, &c. 2157. Which had been British imports? — Some had been British imports and some American manufactures. 2158. And on all the British imports the American Government imposed a duty ? — Yes. 21,59. If they could have gone through the country under bond, the Red River people yvould hftve saved that duty f— Yes. ^..-(f -', ."V*'*', ,^l 0.2J ■: - -■'.'J-' ^^iv- ^:%' ■■■mv 2160. Mr. ;?.,»■'■■ . ■M.-- w^S^lim^ ,«■'{„; ■if-Al. no MlNUTi SmCR Ti^KSN BEFOBE THE Mr. IF. Ktmtffk^ 'v;a|6o. Mr. Edward EtiiceJi b then ah osport duty in the States upon goods ? ,, . , ,, ' —it do not know. * March il|7. ai6i. Then how do you mean that the Red River people would have sared the duty ^^Had Uie §,-oo& bought goods in the Amoncah territoiy because he could get them dieaper there tiian from the stores of the Hudson^ Bay Company at Red River ?— Yes : thef have undersold. Joi^ &' dit Martiit 1857. KIHUaS FRBSBNT. 5 March 1857. Mr. Adderlay. Mr. Bell. Hr. Blackburn. Mr. Edwaid Ellice. Mr. Cbarties Fitswilliaiu. Mr. Ghirdon. Mr. Oregsoo. Mr. Orogan. Mr. Percy Herbert. Mr. Kinnaird. Mr. Labottcheie. Mr. Lowe. Sir John Pakington. Mr. Roebuck. Lord John Rusaell. Vwcount Sandon. Lord Stanley. ;!•■>;«•!;. Th« Right Hon. HENRY LABOUCHERE, in thk Chair. tHr.W.Kenw^luat. t Mr. William Kernaghan, called in ; and further Examined. 2171. Mr. Grogan.] YOU have been for some time settied at Chicago, have you not? — Yes. 2172. Are you connected with mercantile pursuits there r-^Yes. 2173. Individually, or as a partner in associated oompanies ? — Individually, rk 2174. Has the course of your commercial business made you acquainted with Lake Superior, and its capabilities fur transit and commerce ? — ^Yes ; friends of mine there have a line of steamers that run from Chicago to three ports on Lake Superior. 2175. "What is the most northern port, on Lake Superior, that they go to? — They go to Ontoganan and Marquette; Onlagon is the copper, Marquette, Ihe icon district ; and Superior City ; they go to the west. 2176. Do f y^*i- SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY, iii 1^ -i Jts %*s .'.-v. M hav* ally, inted -Yes; three oto? iiette. Do ■*^ ■M>\0n^, ?^i' %' 2176. Do ther go higher up than Lt^e Superior; do they go to iPort Wil- Hr.lT.Ktmagbm liana ia the English territory?— No. 3177. They do not extend their oourse then b^ond the American boundary f •^No ; there are no settlementii on the other ride. 31 78. Do you know whether there are ^igliah ateamers which travene the lakes to Fort William ? — I do not think any regidar line rum ; a line in con- junction with the Toronto and Collingwood railroad rutas to Lake Siqierior, but the steamers beloi^ to an American company. . 3179. ^ they go to Fort William, the Enj^Uw settlement ?— I do not think they do ; they go to the American towns only. 3 1 80. Can you state what is the population of the town of Superior ?— Supe- rior City was foimded a year and a half ago, and the population at the end of this year will exceed 10,000 peof^e. 2181. Are there any projected railways there?— llie Fond du Lac railway runs 120 miles from Chicago at present, and it is to go to Superior City; it iai finished 120 miles from Chicago. It is to go to Marquette, to Ontoganan, and to Superior City : three brandies. . 3182. Do you know of any projected connections or communications, between Fond du Lac, and any of the British Settlements across the line ; Red River, or the lakes there ? — General Cass brought a Bill the other day into the Michigan Legislature to render navigable all the rivers, as far as the Americaiv territory went, between Lake Winnipejg and Lake Superior, for steamboats and ships. > 2183. Mr. Edward EUtceJ] LakeWinn^>eg is in British territoi7?---As, far as the American territory goes towards Lake Winnmeg. ^..J ^^i^ ' 2184. Mr. Adderl^.^ In the direction of Lake Winnipeg? — Yes. ' 2185. Mr. Orogati.] Do you know what is the leng^ of that projected canal? — L do not know. •»vij« 3186. Or theoipense? — I do not know. " . 2187. Has there been any action on that petition in the Legislature ? — I do not know. I only saw it in the Chicago paper. .^ ts,^ ,/ w.,,j 2188. Wns Chicago your place of residence?-' Yes. '> ' " ' ",r 3 1 89. What is the age of that city ?— It is about 19 or 20 years of age. 2190. What maybe the population of it? — In December it was 110,000. I suppose this month it is about 1 14,000. It increases 1,800 a month. 2191. Was it not from Chicago that the vessel was freighted which came the other day to Liverpool with com?— Yes. She came direct. 2193. Have you a personal knowledge of the Vancouver country on the west side by tne Pacific ? — I have never been as far north as Vancouver's Island. I have been trading on the west coast of America for three years. 1 have been as far north as San Francisco. 2193. Mr. Edward EUice.} What is popularly called CalifbmiaP — Yes. 2 1 94. Mr. GroffanJ] Have you any knowledge of that district fraia reports ? — I met several gentlemen who went to Vancouver's Island to try to trade there and they coidd not trade ; they were refused. 2195. They went to Vancouver's Island for the purposes of trade ? — Yes; they tried to commence trade there, and they could not. 2\i)6. What obstruction was there in their way ? — The Company did not like any people to interfere with them there ; that was the reply of those gentlemen to me. .J, , 2197. Mr. Edward ElUce.'] Where was that? — At Vancouver's Island. ''■ 2198. I thought you said you had only been at San Francisco? — Yes; I only visited San Francisco. 2199. How do you know that fact? — Gentle.nen went to trade there from San Francisco . I found them on their return at San Francisco. 2200. But did they go to trade there ?— 'Certainly ; they brought up cargoes there. 2201 . What sort of cargoes r — I suppose general cargo, u^ .\i.« s ; r. y.^i j.^. « 2202. Was it spirits?'— I suppose everything. ' • >r/iifi 1 ? "1 ;; i ; 2203. Who were they?— I do not recollect their names now, but I recollect perfectly the parties. 2304. Mr. Orogan.] Have you reason to believe that the obstructions to trade to which these gentlemen referred, arose from their desire to trade in furs? -No. 0.25. :KV." 04 ■'>i V --■j^'iiilf^'\'J^.:\1i»k'P-; V'.-:* ' : :\^- S Ifareh 1857. f>X. •^hi:f^f'^''^J^if A'0 2205. Was 1; I in MlNtJTBS OF i?ll}ENCE TAKfiN BEFORE THE Ht^mximigbk. saoj. Wtt it general trade that the^ were aniikibii to cany on f— Thejr did not want to trade in fuw ; they wanted general trade. 5 Mwdi 1I57. 3206. Did those parties ny that they were prohibited, or that such obstruc' tioHs were thrown in thetr wqy by the Government of the island, that they were unable to carry on business ?— Yes ; they were willing to tnde there, but would not go back again. ^207. Mr. Edward EUice.'] Was the obstruction by means of underselling them ? — I do not know what the obstruction was, but they were willing to trade there, and would not go back again until the Hudson's Bay Company would be done away with. 2208. Mr. GroganJ] JM those gentlemen inform you whether their inability to trade arose from any want of the productions of the island, which could be exchanged for thdr imports ?— No. The finest timber hi the world grows on that coast and in Vancouver's Island, and the best niarket for timber is San Francisco. At that tame there was a duty of 36 per cent on timber imported into the States, which is now done away with under the Reciprocity Act. « 2209. Was there any duty on the export of timber firom Vancouver's Island? -—No ; but there was a duty then oh the imports into the United States, which is done aWay with now. 2210. Mr. Edward EUice.] What description of timber is it?— All kinds of Sine; fir. Captain Grant shipped one cargo from Vancouver's ledand to a iecd of mine before I was in ^n Francisco. 2211. Mr. Grogan.'] Did those gentlemen mention to you anything about coal, or the mineral productions of the island } — Thme gentlemen did not ; but I was on board the United States steam frigate '* Massachusetts." 2212. In what year was this ?— January and February 1851 ; she coaled her- self at Vancouver's Island with the native cbal of the island. 2213. Did the ofiicers give you any account of what it cost them, or the time it took to coal her ? — ^The officers told me that they went very close to where the coal is, on the strand, and that the Indians quarried the coal, and that the men of the ship shipped the coal in boats. 9214. Mr. Edward ElUoe.] How do you know all this ?— The officers of the United States frigate " Massachusetts" told me. I g^ve the time, and the place, and the officer who told me. 2215. Mr. Grogan.} Is there any other part of the North American territory ' coasts that you are personally acquainted with ? — I have been in Labrador. 2216. For what length of time were you in lAbrador ? — Not very long. 2217. Mr. BelL] Are you acquainted with the mining operations on the south side of Lake Superior i — No. I know some of the companies, but I have no interest in them myself. 2218. Are you acquainted with any facts as to the products ?— I know about the quantity of the products. ^ 22 1 g. What quantity of copper is there r — There have been 3,000 tons of copper shipped last year from the mines. 2220. How many mines are there ? — Near Ontoganan, I suppose there are about half-a-dozen public companies mining. 2221. How long is it since they commenced operations ?— A good many years ; but since the ship canal was opened from Lake Superior to the other lakes a great many more companies have started. There are iron companies at Marquette. 2222. I see that Lake Winnipeg is mentioned in the passage which you read the other day from the newspaper ? — Yes. 2223. On the map there is a small Lake Winnipeg between the Rainy Lake and the Mississippi Hiver ; do you know whether that is meant ?— I do not know which. 2224. Mr. Grogan.1 In that part of Lake Superior, where the mineral dis- trict is located, on the American side, are there any limitations imposed by the State of Michigan With regard to emigrants who desire to explore the minerals? — None whatever. 2225. Every facility is given ? — A man may squat where he likes. 2226. And with regard to i-aising the minerals, is he at liberty to do so?— If you buy the land, the minerals are yours afterwards. 2227. Is it within your knowledge whether the same facilities for emigrants ^xist in the British territories as on the American side ? — ^There are no facilities on or many S;^::" .?.- other ies at read ■ Lake know \ V ?— If ;rant8 ilitieA on SELECT ^OMMITTfiBOJU THE HUDSON'S BAANY. jj^ pn the British tide north of 40 degrees ; if titere were, the oa«utrjr woaU be Mr. «r. Ktnmtimt. aa thickly peopled as it is south. 3338. Mr. Sdward Efliee.] How do you know that i what are your means 6f 5 Maicb ttty. information ?— the talk of the people ; there are likely to b« disturbances in that country the same as in Kanzas if the country is not made free under Kanzas. 3399. TOwt is also the talk of the people ? - Ye». 323(>. Mr. Bell.] Do you know any individuals who would go into that country to settle if they were not prevented by the exclusive system of the Hudson's Bay Company ?— 1 know a great many people in Chicago who talk of settling at the Red River, provided it was under Canadian rule. 3231. Americans? — Americans. 3332. Mr. Cfrqgan.] Have you at Chicago e^er had any commerciid dealing* with, or cdtae across any of the parties who come from the Red Rivet and that district with their goods ? — I myself have not had. 3^33. But do you, of your own knowledge, know whether any of the settlers of the Red River seek a market for their goods in the American territory?—! know that last season 500 waggons left Pembina with their pork, their beef, their lard, their wheat, and all their agricultural produce, and sold it at St. Paul's or St. Peter's, and brought back the goods which they required. 3334. That is the circumstance wUch you mentioned to us on the liast day r —Yes. 2235. Mr. Edward Ellke.^ They did so, as far as you know, without an/, obstruction on the part of the Hud8on''s Bay Company ?— The Hgdlson'^ Bay Company were not powerful enough to stop them. ,,,.,, 2236. Do you know whether they tried to stop them ? — ^That is the il»lk of the country. 2237. Mr, Kinneard.] The talk of the country is a very general sort of term; can you give us any fact showing the views of the Company ?— No, I can give you no fact, but I think the best proof is that north of 49 degrees there is no settlement ; south of 49 degrees, in Minesota, there are now 180,000 settkars. That district had a population four years ^go of 6,000 people : it has now 180,000. Red River had as laj^e a population 20 years ago as it has now ; I think that is a fact which is proof enough. 2238. Do you say that the land round Red River in that whole district is equally well adapted for settlement as the Miuesotfi district i — So it has been stated to me. 2:239. ^ou do not know it ? — I do not know it personally. 224Q, Mr. Gregson.] You have never been there ? — Never. The chief settlers in Minesota are Norwegians and Swedes, and those people would as soon be under Canadian rule as under American, and they would cross the bor^ der if allowed. 2241. Mr. Kinnaird:] They would cross the border if encpuragement Wjas. given? — ^Yes. 2242. Mr. Bell.] How near to the border have they settled ? — Veiy close up. . 2243. St. Paul's is 300 to 250 miles from the border r — Every year they are closii^ further and further. . 2244. Mr. Adderleu.] Do you know the country of Minesota ?— No, I have not been further north than bubuque, in Iowa. 2245. Mr. Oordoti.] How do you know that the settlements are closing up to the British boundary? — I know that those people would as soon be under Canadian rule as under American. 2246. That is not my question. You said that you knew that the American settlers were settling up close to the British boundary ; how do you know thet ? , -—From common report. There was a lecture delivered in Chicago; I will enclose it to the Chairman ; it may give some information. r The Honourable Charles William WentwortK FitzwilUam, a Member of tl»!^;< ■.■•;' Committee ; Examined. ,a ** ^ '■ 2247. Chairman.] I bblibvb you have recently passed some time in British North America ? — It is three years since I came back from America. In the winter of 1852'3 I was in Oregon and Vancouver's Island. 0.25. P 2248. How Hon. c. w. IV. F.lmiUiam, m.p. '1&:v J: I. AMI 1 »»4 MINUTES OF BVlDteNCE TAKEPI BEFORE fHA HhmsCir.W. ^^^' ^'^ ^^°8 ^ you remain' in Vancouver's Island i — I was there two Fi$mauimitlu.*. months ; the months of March and April. - a;i49. What opinicn ^d you form of the soil and climate of that island, and 5 M«Mii 1867. of its capabilities for becoming a place of settlement for Europeanii ?— The cli- mate appeared to roe particularly adapted for settlement by Englishmen If seemed to resemble very much the climate of England, though perhaps in win- t jr not 80 cold as it is here ; and in summer, from a letter which I have just received, it must be considerably hotter. The soil is generally productive, although in places rocky ; the country is divided into wood and prairie country I the prairies are parklike ; extennve grounds, stretching into the wood. 2.250. Did you go much about the island :— I was up as far as Naniroo, where there is a coal mine, about 80 miles to the north of Fort Victoria, on the east side of the island ; and I was about ten miles on the coast to the west. 3251. Did you hear much about the coal mines there, so as to form any opinion as to their probable productiveness ? — When I was there they were working a six feet seam of coal at a depth of about 40 feet ; it was close on thd shore ; within 20 yards of the shore. . ..az.oa. It is on the eastern shore of Vancouver's Island, I believe ?— Yes. ' 3353. Is there not an easy communication by means of a valley that almost cuts the island in two, from the place where the coal mines are to a good har- bpur on the western side of Vancouver's Island ? — I do not believe that that country has ever been explored ; but I should imagine there was from Nanimo across to Nittinat Sound. 3354. Sir John Pakington.] Which part did you say had not been explored? —Hardly any of the interior of the island has been explored. 325.5. I understood you to speak of the west coast not having been explored? -~0n the west coast, I believe, it has not been explored ; at least it had not been then. ,; : - '3256. C/iaii'm^.] Was the timber fine in the part of the country that yoHV tew ?>^ The fir timber was magnificent. i 2357^ The harbours are excellent, are they not?— Yes; the Esquimawll harbour is the finest harbour I ever saw. , 3358. Mr. Grogan.'] Is that on the east side, or the west ? — All the country I ain now speaking of is within the Straits of Fuco. ^i 2259. Chairman.'] What opinion have you of that country with regard td its r^urces, as to fisheries ?— Nobody who has not seen the enormous quantity of fish can possibly credit the value and extent of the fisheries. I do hot know the number of barrels, but many thousand barrels of salt salmon are sent annually from Victoria to the Hudson's Bay Company's depAt at the Sandwich Islands. 2260. Do the neighbouring seas abound with other fish, besides salmon }-^ Herrings are very numerous indeed. To give some idea of how numerous they are, the method of catching herrings is, that two Indians go in a canoe, one paddling in the stem and the other standing in the bow. The Indian in the bow has a lath of wood about eight or nine feet long, studded with nails. He scoopA down into the water and impales the fish on those nails. In two or three hours they get a fair load in the canoe. 2261. In what condition did you find the settlement which is now there, as far as you could judge ? — It was in a very primitive state. There were no roads except those made immediately round the fort, and one from the head oi Esquimault harbour to Captain Ltmgfurd's house. Captain Langford is the bailiff, 1 believe, for the Fuget Sound Farming Company. 22^2. Did much advance seem to have taken place in colonising or settling the country ? — Comparatively speaking, very little. On the other side of Puget Sound, on the mainland in Oregon, where I believe it had only been settled two or three years before the island was granted to the Company, there were farms of considerable extent. 2363. Are you speaking of the American country? — Yes; from what is now Columbia City, or Fort Vancouver, all the way across to Olympia, at the head of Puget Sound. Of course the farms were not continuous ; in a country like that you do not find farms, as we do in England, one touching the other. 2264. Did you travel through that country on the American side from Fort Vancouver [at is Uthe mtry |er. Fort juver ■gS' SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BX? (^>ifi»ANY. n^ Vancouver to Olympia ? — I travelled Inr canoe from Fmt Vctwiuuver to the Cow- lets, and then across from there to Olympia and to Nisqually. 4365. There are a sood many Indians, I bulieve, in Vancouver's Island t — On . 226*. Mr Edward EUice.] Do you know the Cowichan valley ? — The Cowi- chan valley is about 40 miles from Fort Victoria, on the east coast ; the C!ow- ichan Bay is a deep bay with, at the extreme end of the bay, low land, and oil the north side are high mountains ; it must be a very productive valley indeed, from the great quantities of potatoes which I saw traded there by the Company and by other trades when I was there. 2209. You were not in the valley ? — No ; when I was there it was almost dangerous to land there ; it was just after the execution of two Indians for tnurder. 2^70. Chairman.] Do you know what was the number of the European com> munity settled in Vancouver's Island when you were there?— I do not know exactly, but I should think that the numbers of Europeans and half-breeds, considering them all as white men, were about 300. 2271. Did you hear any causes assigned for the number of settlers there hanng increased so littler — I think one principal cause is the distance at which it is from the mother country. 2272. Did you hear the attractions of California, as a gold-producing country, assigned at all as a reason for their not having increased more 1 — I think all those who got up as far north as Vancouver's Island would not turn south and go to San Francisco, but they would be more likely to go over to the main land, which they could do very easily in canoes, where they would get as much employmi nt as they could want at very remunerative wages. 2273. Would not settlers who are in doubt where to go, who might have been induced to go to Vancouver's Island, have gone to California on account of the gold r — I do not think that a sufficient number crosses the equator in that direction for me to form any opinion upon that subject. 2274. Did you travel about any other part of North America ? — I was all through the States on the Missouri river, as far as Port Pierre. I crossed^ the Rocky Mountains twice, and was in California, and also in New Mexico. 2275. You were not in the territory managed by the Hudson's Bay Com- pany ? — No ; not north of the Boundary Line. 2276. Mr. Kiniiaird.] You stated that the interior of Vancouver's Island had never been explored at all ; did you ascertain whether there was any systematic ptttempt to arrive at a knowledge of the nature of the country by the Govern- ment there ? — I do not think that there was any systematic attempt. '^*'*^ 2277. Do you not consider it very desirable that an island of that import- ance should be, in a certain measure, surveyed r — Certainly I do ; for I think it is the most valuable possession in the Pacific. If you take the map of the Pacific you will see that the only safe harbours in the Pacific exist in Vancouver's Island, with perhaps the exception of Acapulco and San Francisco. The entrance to the harbour in the Columbia River is excessively dangerous, and ships are frequently detained there even for weeks in the winter time. 2278. Had Captain Langford never made any attempt to explore the island ? i^Only immediately round his house. 2.79. Did he express a desire that he should have powers given him for that purpose; did he think it necessary himself r — Yes, I think the colonists generally wished that some exploration of the country should be made. 2280. Mr. Edward Ellice.\ V\'as not Captain Grant there when you were there ?— Not then ; he had left a little before. *^ >,*.»' . - 2281. Do you know that he was appointed by the Colonial Govertimeikt iitt concert with the Government here as the surveyor of the island for the purpose of surveying it r — I do not know that he was. I forget the name of the gentle- man who was surveyor to the Company then. 0.25. p 2 2282. There iMn* C 5 Mwtk itsT^ -.mi :**. '1 ]m Wi ■11* ( tW i 11$ 3 M»rcb itj7. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE -Yes. '9383. Tbere wm a aurveyor to Che CooiMny then ?• •J2%S. Mr. Kitutaird.] You stated that there was a considerable difficulty in landing at a certain point, owing to the excitement among the Indians r — Ihat was in Cowichan Bajr. f ■2^64. Whidi is part Df Vancouver's Island? — ^Yes. 3385. What were the drcunistances which rendered your landing dangerous i — ^A short time before I arrired there, a Cowichan and a Nanimo Indian had killed either one or two shepherds. 3i86. Europeans?— Yes; 1 believe they were Europeans. Mr. Douglas, aided by C^^itain Kuper, of the *' Thetb," took these men, and they were tried ai^ hung for the murder ; they were hung at Nauimo. 3387. That created great excitement among the other Indians ?— Yes. 3388. And it was consider^ not safe at that time to land:— I certainly did not think it safe myself, because, if I had iHnded, I should have had to kmd alene; and as I could not speak Cowichan, and those Indians did not under- stand signs, I did not wish to risk myself there. 3389. Have any attempts been made, as far as you know, for the civilization or instraction of these natives ? — I think none. 3290. Have you heard of any missionary being on the island at all? — Mr. Stains, the chaplain to the Company, was then on the island, and there was a Roman Catholic bishop. 3391 You are not aware that Mty means were being used, or that any schools were in existence ; there was no settlement of Indiana there ? — ^The Indians there live in permanent vii^ges ; they are not a migratory tribe like those on the main land, but they live in villages on the shore. 3393. You would, therefore, consider that it would be easier to provide for their jnstruction, than it would be in the case of the wandering Indians P^-l think so. 3393. CAoirmffn.] Are they employed on the coal mines at all ?-~No. 2294. Mr. Edward EUke.] Vancouver's iHland is aliout as large as England, is it not r— ^I should think it is as long as England proper, but not so wide. 3295. Bir John Pakingion.] Is Victoria the only European settlement there? — ^Yes, the only town. 3396. Do the 300 English and half-breeds, of whom you spoke, reside at Victoria ? — No, not all ; some of thera reside on farms in the neighbourhood. 3397. Am 1 right in presuming that those farms are in the neighbourhood of Victoria ?— All within 12 miles of it. 3398. Substantially, there is only one English settlement in Vancouver's Island ? — Exactly so. . - ^ 3399. Is that English settlement of Victoria siiuated upon the very fine harbour of which you have spoken ? — No, not exactly on it ; it is situated on a small harbour which runs in a little to the east of Esquimault ; gomg by land it is within a mile and a half of the harbour. 3300. To what extent did ycu yourself obtain any personal knowledge of Vancouver's Island ! — I was at the coal mines at Nanimo. 2301. How far are they jfrom Victoria ?—'rhey .'tre i*out 80 miles, on th^ east coast. . , ^ 2302. I apprehend that those coal mmea practical'y constitute a settlement, ' do they not ?— Yes. I forgot the settlement at the coil mine*. 2303. What is the number of Europeans who are settled at the coal mines ? I do not believe there were more than 10 when I was there. 2304. What was the aggregate population there ? — 1 do not believe there * were more than 10 persons all together at the coal mines. 230.';. Do you mean t1iat the coal mines are worked by 10 persons ?—Tlier3 were only four men then working iu the mine. 2306. Without the a.ssistance of any Indians or half-breed ?— Yea, except one or two just to wind up the coal. . a, 2307. How far from the coa s the coal mine at Nanimo r— Twenty yards. 3308. Then the coals are all conveyed by sea, of course ?— -Yes ; a 500 ton ship can come within 10 yards of the shore ; within 40 yards of the mouth of the pit. 2309. On which coast is Nanimo ? — On the east coast. 2310. Within the straits?— Yes ; all the country I am speaking of is within the Straits of Fuco. . 2311. Are SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 117 9)11. Are those atnita throughout euy of navigation; it it • prettjr bold, safe coast; say from Victoria to Naniino, it it a safe navigation ? — It i> rather an intricate navigation, fur it is through a cluster of islands the way I went, by caooe and steam-boat. 33 1 3. You have spoken of a 500 ton ship ; is the water deep ? — Yes. 3313. Is there any difficulty in navigating a 600 ton ship from Victoria to Nanimo ? — Not with propelling power. 3314. Do you know the total number of Indians in Vancouver's Island? —No. 3315. I underatood you to state that they yren peaceable, and for the most part unarmed?— I should say they are for the most part ui irmed. 1 do not oelieve in the peaceableness of any Indian. 3316. Will you explun that answer?— I believe that any India* will take any and every advantage he positibly can. 3317. What I mean rather is, not whether as an uncivilised roan he would take advantage, but whether the Indians of VaiKKHiver's Island have evinced any disposition to be aggressive towards the Europeui settlers, or whether lixy have lived peaceably v !>h he European settlers? — I think, generally speaking, they have lived peaceably with them, as far as I can understand. 33 1 8. They are not what you would comparatively speak of as u aiavage tribe of IndiaiiiB? — No ; they are not to be compared with the Blackfret. 3319. Mr. Bell.} From what you say the coal mines are not at all 'in active operation r — No ; they were not when I was there. 3320. Mr. Edward Mllice.] Of what time do you speak with reference to that coal?— 1853. 3331. Are jrou aware that very shortly ofier the coal was discovered there was on intention shown to begin to work it r — Yes. 2322. Are you not aware that there are now 60 or 70 miners employed r— I am not sure ; but when I was there I know that miners were expected out, in the " Otter," I think. 3333. Mr. Gordon.] What class of persons were the settlers of whom you have been talking ; were they persons who had come from Englund, or persons who had settled there from America ; had any come from the opposite coast ? — I think very few ; some Americans hod come for job woric. 33^4. Where had the white population, such as it was, come from? — From England, generally speaking. 2325. What inducements hod brought those English settlers out there r — Several had come out as servants 'of the Paget Sound Farming Company, a»d were acting as baiUfiis and servants on that farm ; they had been brought out in the Company's ships. 2326. You do not think, then, that any of the settlers there had come out attracted by the advantages of the island itself; they had come out, as it were, accidentally in some capacity, and then they remained there ? — I think only one had come out to settle. 3337. Was any encouragement given to settlers to come; was there any effort made to induce other settlers to come f — I think not. -:i^?„ 2338. Mr. Edward .Etfice.] You do not know that to be the fact?— No. '^ "* 3329. Mr. Gordon.'] Do you happen to know at what price land was pro- 'cured there ?■- Land Was sold at 1/. an acre, according to the assignment of the island to the- Company by the Government. The Company received 10 per cent, of that, and the remaining 90 per cent, was to be expended in the improvement of the island. 2330. Do you know when that coal mine of which you have spoken was •first discovered ?— At the end of 1852, I think. '--^V'-'. 2331. Have you often travelled with American fur traders r — Yes. " " 3333. Have you had any opportunity of observing whether they, in their traffic with the Indians, make great use of spiritnous liquors as a means of ■barter? — I think, generally speaking, they do not use liquors^ 2333. Is there any penalty in force if it is proved that they have made use of them? — A very heavy one. 2334. Have you ever seen that heavy penalty practically enforced ? — I cannot say that I have seen it ; but I have heard that a man whom 1 wished to employ had been detected trading in liquor, and had been taken down irom Fort Laramy on the Plat to the States. 0.25. ^ p 3 .; „; , ; 2335. As Hon. C fr , ^. FiitwUliam, u.t. 5 ll«r«h 1857. ^';/^' '■.■'■ ua ^ •' ' I Hon. C. W. W. Fitsmtliam, u.r. S March 1857. .^'■■:m^0 118 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TA'KEfJ BEFOUE THE 3335. As a prisoner?— As a prisoner. ' 2336- Chained ?— I believe 80. 2337-, Then do you believe that that regulation is practically carried out? — I think it is, where tliey have the power to do so. 2338. Mr. Percy Herbert.'] You spoke of the anchortge ; that ships of 500 tons could lie off the coal mine t — Yes. 2339' ^^ ^^ <^ secure and extensive anchorage ?— It is not an extensive anchorage exactly opposite the coal mine ; it is perfectly secure, and within a quarter of a mile of it there is anchorage for any number of ships that choose to go there. 2340. Is the supply of coal supposed to be very large ? — It had not been explored very much when I was there, but they were then working n six-feet seam, which seemed to descend into the ground instead of rising to the surface. 2341. \i»covmt Sandon.] I think there are some islands between Vancouver's Island and the mainland ? - Yes. 2342. Have you been on them r — I have camped on some of them. 2343- Are they capable of cultivation ? — Yes, I think so. 2344. They are just at the mouth of the harbour, 1 think, opposite Victoria? — They are not at the mouth of the harbour. 2345. Just opposite f — Not opposite the mouth of the harbour ; they are to the back'of the harbour. 2346. Mr. Edward Ellice.] Are not those the islands now in dispute between the American Government and our own r — Yes. 2347. Mr. Adderley.] Can you tell us anything about the administration of the island, the government, or the magistracy ? — ^There was a governor appointed bv the home Ciovernment, Mr. Douglas, and he had a counoU of five to aid ,; him in the government of the island. 2348. Is he at all under the control of the Hudson's Bay Ck>mpany r — He is a chief factor in the Company. 2J49- Was he appointed by the Company ?— No ; not by the Company, but at the suggestion of the Company. 2350. What are the magistracy, or how is tne law enforced there ?— ; Mr. Douglas appointed magistrates. I do not know exactly whether they enforced the law as it would be enforced in England, but they made some attempt to do so. 23.5 !• There are tribunals in the island in case of breaches of the law r— The offendei-s are brought up before the magistrates whenever such a case occurs. 235a. Have the Company done anything by way of settling the land ? — I do not think that the Hudson's Bay Company itself actually has, but the Puget Sound Fanning Company, which is composed of members of the Hudson's Bay Company, has taken out settlers there, and has cultivated a considerable quan« tity of land. 235 3- Is that Puget Sound Company entirely mei|;ed in the Hudson's Bay Company, or is it a separate Company ? — It is a separate Company, I believe, composed altogether of members of the Hudson'd Bay Company ; that is howv it was explained to me. 23,')4. So that the whole of the Puget Sound Company is merged in the Hudson's Bay Company ?— Yes; all the memben of it are officers of the Hudson's Bay Company. 2355. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] You do not state that as a fact, do you?— I was informed so. 2356. Mr. Adderley.] Do the Company occupy lands as belonging to themr selves besides the land which they have sold ?— I think they had a few fields in cultivation close to the fort for their own supplies. 2357. Are the public buildings at the harbours, and the wharfs, and so on, retained by the Company as their own property ?— There are no pubUo buitdings, and no wharfs, but those which belong to the Company. 2358. Do the Company claim a royalty upon the mines? — Yes. I am speaking of 1853. 2359. Do you know whether they are taking any steps whatever to advertise immigrants ? — I have never seen any advertisement of the sort. ii2,6Q, You talked of a surveyor being appointed : how did it come to pass that ft. SELECT COMMITTSB ON THE HUDSON*S BAY COMPANY. 119 that that surveyor was appointed, and yet that no surrey took place ?— He seemed to me to be mostly engaged in determining the latitude and longitude at different points of the island, which was most useless for the benefit of the colonists. 3361 . Was he paid by the Company ? — Yes. 3362. From what quarter do you think that the settlement of that country will naturally come ; from the sea side or firoia the land side ? Supposing it was perfectly free for colonisation, and that there were no rights of the Hudson's Bay Company acting as any obstacle to emigration from any portion of thfi world, do you think it likely that it would be settled gradually from the sea, or that a population would grow up from the United States to it ? —I think that in all probability it would l^ settled from tie sea ; that emigrants would sail from here. 3363. Do you know that portion of the United States called. Columbia?— ,' I have been through the Washington and Oregon territories; there are very j few roads there, and most of the communication is by water. 2364. Does the population at all increase in that (Erection ? — ^Vastly. 2365. Towards the borders ? — Yes, up along the shores of Puget Sound, by Nisqually. 3366. Is there any speculation in those fisheries of which you spoke, further •; than the mere fishing in canoes ; is there any appearance of companies being ; formed, for the purpose of speculating in those fisheries? — None whatever, ,f The Hudson's Bay Companj' tiadod the fish from the Indians, and annually ■• sent down a great deal of salt fish to their depdt at the Sandwich Islands. '2367. Do the Company claim a monopoly of that fishery ; do they claim the exclusive right of fishery upon the coasts of Vancouver's Island ? — ^Tliey do not fish themselves ; the Indians are the fishermen, and they trade their fish to the < !- Company. 2368. Have the Company a monopoly in that trade? — No, I should not say that they have a monopoly there, for when I was at Cowichan there was ; an opposition going on at the time. '2369. From what quarter was it? — A settler on the Island, a Mr. Cooper, vfps trading then. I think he had got some goods up from San Francisco, ajtd ^ he was trading to San Francisco at the time. *''■;' 3370. Mr. Grogan.] In fish ?— Mostly in lumber to San Francisco. 2371. Mr. Adderley.] Was Mr. Cooper a man who had purchased land from the Company ? —Yes, he had a farm there ; he had about 15 acres in cultivation then, and would, I dare say, before the year was out, double that. , 3372. Do you know Nootka Sound?— No. ^ * «v r -> 3373. I suppose, that is a notoriously fine harbour, ? — I believe so. 3374. Can you state what is the nature of the coal which you have seen ; is it a good coal ? — It is an excellent coal, very like the West Riding of Yorkshire coal. ,.^^,5,, , ^, „^ ...... ;, 3375. And that is a vein very near the surface? — YeH. -^'^*- ''* • ■* • 3376. Mr. Grogan.}. What did you say were thp productions that the settlers were, raising when you were there ; you spoke of the 'Ihdians raising a great quantity of potatoes ; was corn reared ? — ^Wheat w,as raised. 3377. Was it a safe crop ? — ^Yes, I believe so. 3378. Were there any other cereal crops besides wheat? — Oats and barley. 2379. Have you any doubt whatever that they would grow there just as well as they do in these climates ?— None whatever. 3380. Chairman.] In short, it is a very fine soil and climate, is it not ? — Yes. 3381. Sir John Pakington.] At what time of the year were you there? — In March and April. 2383. Mr. Grogan.] Were there any number of settlers who had purchased , land from the Company, or was Mr. Cooper an isolated case? — I think Mr. Cooper was an isolated case; he was in partnership with a farmer, Mr. Blenkhorn, who was by far the most energetic settler on the island ; he was a man who had been in Australia for several years, and afterwards came back to England, and then went out vrith Mr. Cooper to the island. 3383. In fact there are no number of settlers going there, or in the island at present? — No, except those who are brought out by the Puget Sound Company. , ,■;,, , , ^ , 0.25. i»4 ' 'M 2384. The Hon. C. W. IT. Fitagiaiam, H.p. 6 March 1857. \:%>:,*«lT 5 March 1857. ,/;•-,.. %.>•> t'^:: '■'i:^-' Mr. A. hbitter. lao MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Hon. c. tr. r. FittmiUiam,n.r, 3384. The settlers whom you have described to us, and those in and about Fort Victoria, were all the serrants or Attach^ of the Puget Sound Company, were not they ?— Do you mean immediately about the fort, because the settlemeiit iA very small? 2385. You describe, thit-besides the fort, taking a radius of 10 or 12 miles round the fort, there were a good number of settlements where cultivation wai going on ?— Yeo. 3386. I call that the settlement generally; were they principally th« servants of the Puget Sound Company, or was there any body of independent settlers ?— Mr. Cooper was the only free settler, as they term it there, on the island. 2387. The only independent settler ?— The only independent settler ; all the others were connected either with the Hudson's Bay Company or with the) Puget Sound Company ; many of the officers of the Company had bought farm^> and were cultivating them. ^ » 2388. Mr. Addertejf.] Had they paid the Company ?— I do not know whetb^ money had passed or not. 2380. Do you know whether there were cases of the Comitany allotting land free of price to their officers r — 1 cannot answet that question. 2390. Citairman.] Is there anything which you wish to add to the evidence you have given i-r-l wish to hand in the following letter which I received from Mr. Cooper. ci|y .j^it ,'* [The iamt was delivered in, and is as JbUoivs :] '"'i'i ' '-'lit -— Sir, Victoria, Vancouver's Island, 21 February ISftar^^ I BBO to hand you a copy of my letter to (Captain Kuper, c.b. (Her Mujesty's ship " Thetis "}4 Also Bcconapanying it, is the document alluded to. >,T^ J '■■^'*' I have, &c. ■ "V Itv^fitonoanible G. W. Wentworth FiUEwilliam. (atgnod) Janut Coopef^ :^^ . ^«' ■■ ■ ■ . fi ■ ■■I.. - — —1 .. ■— ...—,.— , '::4. ■^. ,' Sir, Victoria, Vancouver'a lelond, 3 January 188»^ *■ .jIiIEnclosed is a document I beg leave to forward for your inspection, and as one of the many instances of injustice that we are compelled to gubn)it to. The two men whose signatures appear in the document were under contract to cut andi BQuare wood, to complete the cargo of the vessel lv>»g in this port countersigned to me. The governor compelling them to join in the expedition now absent (though perfectly cog- nizant of their engagement), leaving me with an impossibility of replacing them, consequently ihe vessel is detamed here much longer than she otherwise would be, under almost ruinous circumstances. It is not necessary for me to make any comment u]ion the above further than this >. .l^t it possibly may be legal, but it is not eitoet just or generous. ' ;'<>j'<>^tkl , .ss- 1 have, &c. ''^K V Captain A. L. Kuper, a B., (signed) Jamt Cooper, ki .^f~;>.M.S. "Thetis." _ I Victoria, December 18 A2. I HBRBBT solemnly swear that Mr. Douglas cotopelled me to join in the expedition now about to take place on the coast of this island, ondfer penalty ot being banished from the colony. The tnreats held out vrere in these words : " If any man is afraid to go, he may stop, but must leave the islond." , -;■'■'.- ^^j^'i :aity\;*»' -l'' V"^itv'.w-#s-s.'»^'j«*:'''-v ;«("'', >. .vr ..£l-iij^.^<:«/; /t«^fir?f^#'''' w*' '"''■ ■idM^ii*^ MIM^J'M Witness, Jama Cooper, ^ i , ^i-Tkamat Cooper. ■':> i/w ';* I ■^ ■■m>%m . Charbono x mark. y«i#r; Hi'itMM^' ;.,::^l: jJVft'f^-^ >. Mr. Alexander Isbister, called in ; and Examined. ^|feW»! 2391. Chairman.] I bblibve you have directed your attention for some time past very much to the affidrs of the Hudson's Bay Company r — I have. 2391. What is your personal connexion with that countiy ? — I am a natilH^ of that country, and passed the greater portion of the first 20 years of my life in that territory. -,.r,-?'V-Y- '■■•■•,-■■" '■'■■]■--:' •■^^- •■ • • ■■: . ^-■tSm-f^V'i y^ '^'vv^^A ;iN''n^o'\ ''■>■■- ^':'tv^ ■■'tf393. Were P' 2/\ now) and thosd news nver Wini tions COUT Cana theii 241 opini[ o.: 8BLBCr COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY, lai 1S63. \ e of the cut audi d to me. ' ctly cog- sequenliy t ruinous his: that , ie».^%- Where were you when you were ensaged hi the aerrioe of the 5 March 1857. Hudaon'a Bay Company ?— In the district called the Mackensie's River district ; the moat northerly distarict. 3395. In what capacity ? — I was a clerk, or a postmaster, a junior officer in tiie Hudson's Bay Company's service. 3396. In what year was that?— In the years 1838, 1889, and 1840, 1 think ; Tarn not quite sure of the date ; but it was about that time. 0397. What induced you to leave the service of the Hudson's Bay Company e ~I wished to come to l^ngland tu complete my education ; I was desirous of obtaining a University education, and of qualifying myself for a profession. 3398. You did not leave the service of the Company in conseouence of any dispute ?— Not by any means ; I had no diapute at all with the Hudson's Bay Company, and have no personal complaint whatever against them. 3399. When did vou return to that country ?— I have not been back sfaioeb^ < r 3400. You were bom there, and as a child you lived there ? — ^Yes. • - ^ ' 3401 . What was yoiur age when you left r— I was very young ; under 20. 3403. In what year did you leave r — To the best of my recollection about 1841, 1 think ; I am not quite sure ; or 1842 ; it is many years since I left the ;.^1>|^, ; . v territory. ' S-;}i^i./^^%.'^ y '■, 3403. During the whole of those three years for which you were in the :y^j^w;V i service of the Company, you were at the Mackenzie River, were you not?—- v;:;^^^^^^^^:^^-)^^^^ During the three years that I was in the Company's service. I had travelled '"'^' t , ,i tiirough portions of the territory before that ; but I was very young at the time. - i^ j' 1. 3404. Have you any knowledge of the Red River Settlement, for instance? -' . .; >^' r' •—Yes; I was at school there as a boy, and I have a Utile property there, for- ii'': ,; ^ 1 merly belonring to my fether, which came to me; I was also there one year • ^ after I left the Company's service. : ''' 3405. You have since that time, I believe, devoted a great deal of attention ;^ to the affisirs of this Company ? — ^Very weat. 3406. What opinion have you been Ted to form with regard to the general ; character of the management of the Hudson's Bay Company of these territo- ries?— Upon the whole, I think it is unfavourable to the development of the ^resources of the country, and also to the enlightenment and progress in civilisa- tion of the inhabitants. 3407. To begin with the first point, namely, the development of the resources r of the country, will you have the goodness to state in what way you thmk the f^ VjTstem pursued by the Hudson's Bay Company operates in that respect? — ^It 1/ is an obstruction to the colonising spirit of those settlers who are in the terri- tory \ the Company have not made any efforts, at least such efforts m I think ' they might have made, to provide a market for the settlers that are in it; . and they have thrown obstacles, according to the statement of the settlers at least, which is confirmed by officiid documents in my possession here, in the way of an export trade in tallow and hides from the wild animals in the prairies ; they have also inteifered in many ways with the efforts of the settlers to get up an export trade with the United States, the only outlet which is open , to the Red River Settlement. 2408. Do you believe that there is any considerable portion of the territory, now administered by the Hudson's Bay Company, which would be colonised and settled within any moderate period of time, say 20 years for instance, if those obstructions were removed ?— As far as we can judge, from the Canadian newspapers, there is an evident intention, on the part of the Canadians, to go up into that territory through the line of lakes and rivers which connect Lake Superior with Lake Winnipeg. There appears to be, fortunately, a chain of rivers which are well adapted for settlement, between Lake Superior and Lake Winnipeg. 3409. Then you believe that that district of country would, if these obstruc- tions of which you have spoken were removed, be more or less settled in the course of a certain number of years ? — I believe so ; more especially if the Canadians were allowed to participate in the fur trade, which I believe it is their desire to do. 2410. You say "to participate in the fur trade;" what would, in your opinion, be the effect of throwing open the fur trade indiscriminately to any 0.35. Q one •-S-:* 'W^^' \ ■■■ ' ,-^^-.-.. ■''.-^ =. {••■-•■ ' ■'",'.,• V ^ , . " I' V J w i'M' ;. v ■",.;--T' 'Wn '.y\ %■ '^'J.' if fill t'29 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr.^. itUtimr. one who chose to enter into it? — I have thought over that question a great deal, especially in reference to the Indians. I may at once state that vy diief 5 Mmh 1857. ol^ect, in eonneeting myself with tbis movement at all, was to improve the condition of the native and half-caste Indians in the Red Rirer S^^emeot. I believe, upon the whole, that if a monopoly of the for trade could be estab- lished, tffui eould be posidUy made to eonsist with the enlightenment and pro- Sress of the Indians, a monopoly would be best ; but I am afraid 1^ littder le present cinnimstanoes a mimopoly is impossiUe. I do not think that the Canadians would allow a monopoly to b« established in that territory. You Site quite ,«ware that they have Laid a claim to that territory, and I beHere they have a l^ai right ip it. 241 1 . What territory are you speaking of }— The Hudson's Bay territotry. •J4ia. Irrt^pectively of that daun, aud adverting merely to the advantage «f tite In believe tbat they are introduced in any considerable quantity ? — ^I htv^e very gfeatreaion: to believe so. ^ ,... 2414. Are you speaking of the entire territory, or only of those parts of the ' ^ , * territo^ that adjoin the settM districts i — From the most correct information tbat i can pFocwCj;! believe that the Hudson's Bay Company have discontinuttd 1^:sale of spirituousUquors in the northern portions of their territories, bu^l that. io<;the'fiountry south of the Sa8katchawatf^ and down to the ^ntier, spirituous Kquorsazevcitber. given or bartered r at any rate supplied to the Indiatts ; th^e areii»cts to pvove. it, which I have here. 241^ With regard to the fiuc trade, merely looking at it as a trftde, do you believe that if the trade was indiscriminately thrown open to everybody the consequenoe trould be &e destructpU 1^ the fur-bearing animals or not 1-rl think not ; I think that is proved by the &ot that even in the western states Of the United States the finr trade is still carried on to a very great extent i I bdieve there, is now a fur merdiant in London, Mr. Lampson, who is the agent ;j v^;. :[ for the American Fur Compc^y and for the American fur traders; l believe ^; < ;5' his sales are quite as large as those of the Hudson's Bay Company ; but the furs -' ''"^^4 aie inferior in value ; they are of a coarser description, as all furs ia southeiQi ''''■:^^,''^:^f''^7^[ 2416. Mr. Edward EHice.'] Does that remark «^ply to all furs, or to a par- ^^ ticular sort of furs ? — The aggregate of the sales, I believe, is about Uie sauie as r that of the Hudson's Bay Company. 2417. Do those sales mclude aU sorts of furs, or are they especially confined /| to one oTitwo descriptions of animals? — I believe they mclude all sorts of furs, 1^" as far AS I have been informed, o 241 8., Ciairmani'] Are you has there not, in the Hudson's Bay f territory between the white and the red man? — ^The numbers of Indians in the ' Hudson's Bay territories are so few that there could not have been any great wars. As stated by Sir George Simpson, the other day, I think the whole ^ number of the ludinus in th? thickwood countries, as he called them, was only , about 30,000 odd ; and wbea that is distributed over such an immense ai^ i^ is impossible ;that these Indians, so distributed, could get up a war. >r>..f^; i 2421. .You believe the Indian tribes in the United States to be far more ' numerous? — Yes, and of a far more wariike character. 2422.. In fact, it is a country more fitted for the subsistence of human beings ? ^ — Decidedly so. 2423. Should you have no apprehension that, in this vast territory now subject to .the Hudson's Bay Company, if there was an uncontrolled admission < of whites, to trade in fiirs in that territory, there would not spring up wars between the white and the red man of a very atrocious character ? — I do not see any probabiUty of it, for the Hudson's Uay Company do no pretend to control v^tik;Mj M^< •5V« ■''■t*l .. '^'^ fi'C ■ tt„'~^' > ■ i'-,;f,., *.i-iiS;,>i •■ SELEOf GOMMIITEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY, las ■f control theAi Indians ; and theydo not pretenid to exercise any inflaence over Mr. A. I*bui$r. them so £ur as I am aware. . ? ;34t4. Do they not practicaUy exercise a very great influence over tiie In- 5 March 1857. dians? — Theymi^. .' .. s.- ■•.>:>•.;( ;",»•■.; • a; v;':; -'S'r ■ ^•^^■: ,; .2435. Do they ?-r-I do not know that they da ' .^ * h >; 7 . v' »•"" 3436. You do not believe that. they do ?i^ do not bdieve thit they do. - ' 3437. You do not think that' they exercise .their influence to keep order in the .paoxLpcf, and. to uphold justioe, so fas as it is possible to uphdd justice .thnragh so great an extent of country, in the circumstances in which thc^ are ^pheed tr-^ believe it is a principle ti the Hudson's Bay Company's administra- tion not to interfere in the quurels or disputes of tribes at all, or to int^eie M little as possible. If any a^nessions are made upon the wlutes by the Indians, thoa they punish them severely. 243%. Id short, in your opinion, the interests of the red man would notrsuffer if the wholis territory, was thrown open to white men, without any restrict ion or control? — ^I think they would not, if there was a guarantee that spirituous liquors should not be hitroduced intc the territory ; if thin» vrere proper means for preventing it. ^■'■f-i-' ■■■■-,- •;<,!!,.'*( ..i^iy-i 0;'!-;,<»r!;U^"', 3439. Do 3rou believe that it would be possible, if rival traders wer^ comp^^ ingwith one another in the chase of these far-bearing animals, through the Instrumentality of the Indians, to prevent or restrain &ose parties thus com- peting vrith one another from having recourse to the) supply of spirits to the Indians,, whiph is the most attractive means of influencing them ?^I believe it woidd be difficult, but not impossible ; at least, to a very great ^ent. I be- lieve the practice in the American Fur Compan3r's territories, if I may use the term, that is, in those portions of the territories occupied by Americans, is to allow no person to trade in furs without a licence, which licence is fbrfeited upon ' the Ending of any spirituous liquors in the possession of the trader ; one trader is set to watch the other ; they have each an interest in informing upon each other; and I believe, upon the whole, that sj^mous liquors are not iai^ly used. I have here rather a remarkable paper ; a comphdnt by the American Gi^emment againHt the Hudson's Bay Company for supplying spirituous liquors iU large quantities to the Indians ; a complaint addressed to our Govem- mlent, and printed here in the form of a Parliamentary Paper. 3430. Mr. Edward Ellice.] What is the date of it r— 1860. (TheWittim Ftiftf Appendix. delivered in the Mme.) 343 1 . Chairmm.l You believe, then, speaking in the interest of the red man, that it would be for his advantage that the monopoly of the Hudson's Bay Company in fur tra4)i% should be abolished, and that the country Ehould be thrown open to the unlimited competition of any persons who might wish to engage in it ? — I should not like to express a very decided opinion upon the point. I should very much like to hear the evidence of the Bishop of Kupert's Land, and the clergymen who havft been in that territory, before I would express any distinct opinion upon the matter. 3433. You have considered these questions for a great many yeu^ ; have you i^ot formed a decided opinion upqna point of that description ?— I have not. 3433- It is a point on which a great deal turns, is it not? — It is a veiy important pomt. (h*^^ mI,,;; i 3434. You are, doubtiess, conversant with the state of things wmch existed in that country, when there was competition in the fur trade between two great companies, the North-West Company and the Hudson's Bay Company ? — I have read of the disputes that took place between them. 2435. What was the state of things then? — There was a great deal of disorder and violence in the territory ; I think that under present circumstances these disorders would not arise again ; there was an absence of any controlling power in the country in those times 5 there were no clergymen nor missionaries ; there was no public opinion of any sort or kind. B43G. You think that there could be an efficient system of control established KXXi 0.25. Q 2 which t > I ' 134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr; A>. UUtitr. S Mktch tS^. %^ '^^Prl 'm*-'-^ ■;*': •'i^^.. ••Mii wbich would {nevent those evils for the fiitare ? — Bj extending the Canadiaa Gorerament orer those territories, not otherwise. 3437. Do f ou think that the Government of Canada oould undertake to keep peace and order, and to enforce a proper system of check and control over this ▼ast territory, whidi woidd, prevent these evils P— If th^ did not I should not reeammend Uie territories bdhg thrown open. 3438. Do vou think that the Canadian Government coidd. do itr-^I believe iiisthdr wim todo it) I believe they could undertake it, because that ter- ritory is now praeticaUy governed from London ; why should it not be gmremed from Toronto modi more easity ? > 9439. At present it ii governed from London by a ccnt^any who have a mono- poly of the trade, and have thehr servants scattered all over the country ?-^ nedsely. 3440. It would then be governed by an authority at Toronto which would have no trading interest in the matter, but would have the dn^ of keepii^p order through all this vast territory ; that would be the difference, would it not ? — ^That womd be the diffierence. 3441. And you believe that the syttem would work equally well?— r-A force wouM be required in the Red River Settlement, which force would keep the whole territory under control ; because access to any part of the northern dis- trioto there, is by one outlet or one opening, the Saskatchawan River, which enters into Lake Winnipeg ; you cannot approach Mackenzie's River, Atlubasea, or any of those territories in the north, except through that one opening. A oostonuhouse or a llMle garrison estabUshed there would exercise an effectual control and supervision over everyth Jig which entered the country. t -f 2443. What you would propose would be to join the whole of this immense territory on both sides of the Rodcy Mountains to the colony of Canada r — I am afraid that it will come to that ; I should hardly call it a plan, but I emn, afraid there will be no other way of settling the difficulty. f 2443. There would be a considerable expense incurred, I presume, in main- tainhig order through so vast an extent of coimtry?-r-There would be the^ expense of establishhiK a force at the Ued River territory. | 3444. There must lie posts scattered all over the country, I presume t — 1£ believe order could be maintained without stationing those posts all over th^^ omintry. 2445. How could the expense be defrayed, whatever it was, of governing and administering the aSain of a countiy of this description? — The trade of,, that country is considerable ; a tax could oe laid upon the trade to defray ihi^,.^ ' expense of controlling and conducting it. i^^ 2446. Do you think that it would not answer the purposes of Canada as ft^^ || colony better, to have joined to Canada any country in its vicinity over which i^ ^ -|^f is at all probable or possible that settlement should extend ? — I am not preparedi| :- to speak upon that point ; I only judge of the sentiments of Canada from thei;v»< newspapers. Merely stating my own opinion, I should say that tlxere might| perhaps be no objection to it, and that the arrangement on the whole mighty t be a beneficial v there. ^r0k- 344?. With regard to the country on the mainland adjoining Vancouver's '"' ;:; Island, wliich may be adapted for the purposes of settleoK^nt, would it not b«!^. :nore convenient that that should be made a colony, and that its inhabitants' ;'' sl.ould manage their own affiurs, raiber than be obliged to go to Toronto fort ,!; thafr purpose ? — I thmk the whole of the territory west of the Rocky Mountains •; ■- must be administered from Vancouver's Island, if it is thrown open. Thei.;^ ';;' Canadians may, however, t^dnk differently. ''^[ 2449. Then you are spealcing merely of Rupert's Land ? — Merely of Rupert's ' 4* Land; the territory to the north of Canada. I believe it is ouv interest to v' people that country, because the United States are f5Mt peopling the territory i^J along the frontier, and they will have that territory from us unless we do It ' people it. ■'' ;;■ 2450. You think that it would not be enough, if such an arrangement could 'i ; f be made, to take away from the Hudson's Bay Coqapany any such territory as L ■■■::,: ^y-mvy^n-^^m. ?4r..7vv could -:, :- 'H 'ii •-&■: v.r/'JV^-i 24.') Colon % . ■'■ ' Red I fe" Grey, for thi fei^ I pro( made %■■:■■:■•. 246 which .!' ■ ■ I bad 0.2; '"i .jc-; . '.^ ::"•']>: nil kOt sve er- led m ing Bt? roe the ilig« ich sea, A nud use -I , , am ' > ' ' un* the the ,^ , imgf',- [e of ,; th^ asa shit the ight. ight;,r • . idis ; . : lonyV- t be-1^'^: ' -ants-v ;•''', fbr'f.-';;. ': tains ^ The.^,i';? iert*» i it to#v-, Itory e do K)Uld py as ;ouId ;:»»;■»,> P-!*." ,.1(> ■•'.■I64'- V«- SELECT COHUrrSBE ON THE HUDSON^ BAT COMPANY. 1 35 ooald be nude use (tf for the purposes of settlement for a long time to come ; &tr. A. liUtter. bi*t that it would be also desirable to take from them that portion of their tern- toiy which could only be uiplied for the purposes of titie fur trade, and to 5 Blarch 18&7. throw it open to unrestricted competition ?~1 am looking at the inducements which would lead emigrants into that territory ; I do not think th^ would go from Canada to the &d River Settlement merely for the purpose of obtainiag land ; they could get land in abundance in Canada. If, therefore, our object is to people that territory, we must hold oat an inducement t <> them by throwing open tiie fur trade to them. But even otherwise I do not f Mnk it is possible to enforce a monopoly in that territory ; you cannot do it. if you throw open Red River to the Canadians, you throw open the fur 'cade, practically. There is no means of preventing those people going there ; yoti nay just as well talk of establishing a monopoly in the gold-fields of Auiili-alia, 2451. You think, whatever the difficulties are, that those difficulties must be coped with i — I think so ; there is the cas^ of the Red River Settlement; they have gone into the fur trade in spite of all the endeavours of the Hudson's Bay Company, and it is a very insignficant colony. I have now a statement of the furs which were sent out from the Red River district by way of the United States. They are forcing a channel through there. 2452. Am I rightly representing your opinions as amounting to this, that you consider the thing inevitable, that, whether we wish it or not, the fur trade will, by the prepress ai events, be thown open to competition r — ^That is my opinion. y% 2453. But that you are doubtful, if it could be prevented, of the effects that such a change would produce upon the interests of the Indians, as far as they are concerned ? — Yes ; I wish to reserve my opinion upon that point. 2454. You referred to a paper giving an account of the fur trade going on witlk the Americans? — ^The trade going on between the Red River Territory and the United States. .■fiaffi.rw.,;:^v .■•■ ;*>•/■■. .'/**;> %- ;^'' ' ''iiMii^ 245,5. Mr. Edward Elliee.'] What is that paper to which you refer?— An extract from a newspaper which has been put into my hands within the last two days. If it is received as evidence, I shall feel bound to give the date, and the name of the paper. It is evidently an authentic document as far as a newspaper statement can be so : " Here are a few interesting Minesota items. The towns along the western bank of the Mississippi are rapidly improving in trade and population. Anew land office is soon to be opened at Buchanan, near the head of Lake Superior. St. Lawrence is the name of a new town, 15 miles above Shakopee, on tlw Minesota River. Trade between St. Paul and Superior is quite brisk. The total amount of peltries from the Pembina, Red River region, exported from St. Paul, Minesota, for 1856, is as follows -.—64,292 r9ts ; 8,276 minks ; 1,428 martens ; 876 foxeii ; 3,600 coons ; 1,045 fishers ; 10 wolverines; 364 badgers; 2,032 wolves; 405 otter; 2,542 rit-foxe^: 610 deer" (skins probably); "20 cross-fox: 8 silver fox; 50 lynx; 7.600 buffalo robes, and 586 potmds of beaver; worthy in the aggregate, about 97,000 dollars." - 1 2456. You do not consider yourself responsible for that statement ? — No, it is simply a newspaper statement. 2457. Mr. Kinnaird.'] Is it from an English or an American paper? — It has only been sent to me within the last two days, and in that form. I have written to ask where it is extracted from, and of course, if it is received as evidence, I shall be able to state in a few days. ^2458. Mr. Gordon.'] Do you credit it, from the other sources of information which are open to you r— 1 do. 24,')9. Mr. Grogan.'] I believe you had a long correspondence with the Colonial Office relative to a petition to Her Majesty which was sent from the Red River Settlement some years ago ?— Yes. I laid tb ^* .i»-tition before Lord Grey. I was myself resident at the time in England ; but I am not responsible for the statements of that petition in any way. 1 believe them to be true ; and I produced evidence in the course of those papers to support the^ stafemeuts made by the petitioners as far as I could. ,.■'<>' 2460. Am I to understand that you were concerned in getting up the evidence which is contained in these papers ?— Yes, but i^ot ia getliUig up tUv petition ; I had no connexion with the petition. .)^'> :i' -:;- ; ,• -vti^ii •■,/<■ i>t:^M ,: *«*a5v <* 3 2461. 1 refer ':iA:t A -, ■■*^'";':;i: it6 MINUTBS (»^ EVIDENCE TikKEN J3EF0BE THE I I I III Mr^. IdUtr. 3461 . I refer to a Tariety of papers tiiat were indosed Which were forwarded to the Colonial Office in support of tKat'petitifm from Red Riveir ?— Yea. s Murch 1857. 2^63,. You got up this evidence to bade up die statements of the petition l-~- Predsely. •,. 3463.' You have no quertion or doubt of the accuracy of tiieie p^mtb ?r-<-No, unless there are some misprintB ; tiiere are some misprints in Ha cotttae: (tf them. .-•<... 1 , i'ii< r. : .i^r.f^^. i are none that I know of, vrith the exception of one at,the ^ed jRiver i^ettiement, an academy established for the education of the chi,ldren of the officers of the Hudson's Bay Company, and under the chai^ of thie bishop. 3470. It is under the supervision of the bishop ; but who is at the expense of the school?— The Hudson's Bay Company contribute 100 /. a year towards the sciiool ; but it is a self-suppo: ting school ; pupils pay, I think, about 30 /. a-year to it i it is a school of a superior class. 3471. Mr. Charka FitMwiUiamJ] Were you yourself educated there ? — I was. 3472. Mr.C^ro^an.jAndyouhadto bear your share of the contribution? — ^Yes. 3473. With the exception of the contribution of 100 /. a year to that school of a superior class, is there, as far as your knowledge goes, any school in the territory of the Hudson's Bay Company assisted by them ?— I know of none. 3474. Mr. Edward JElliee.'] Are you speaking of the period when you were there ? — As far as my information extends down to the present time. ro»5i' V 2475. Mr. Grogan.] Are you now speaking of the state of things at the time you were there r — Yes ; and I believe the same state of things exists at the preseut day. 3476. The evidence you have just given us was, in the first instance, confined to your own knowl«lge ; it is some time since you left the settiement ? — It ja sometime. 3477. Have you been in close communication and correspondence with any of the settlers in that locality since that time?^ — ^Ever since, down to the present time ; continuously ; uninterruptedly. 2478. Do you conceive yourself in a position, by reason of that correS' pondence, to speak of the state of the settlement at present ? — I do. 247^. You have no doubt, whatever, that you represented the opinions of the settlers in the correspondence with the Colonial Qovemment in 1849? — No 3f;'' ^. doubt whatsoever. And I may mention, that since that time, in the last three or four years, a portion of my family who were resident at Red River have come over, and are now living with me, and they of course have given me more recent information. {i:;:; "'>e ' 3480. Mr. Edward Ellice.] I think you said, that with reference to those '*; Alw^v'^ complaints of which you were the organ, you were not respoD8ibl& ior the '■i'-V/ff^ ' ! »; '/ *?;, statements contained in them ? — Not for the petition. t^ > ■•tf^. "^K,. '■*'v rVit^ *V'-^; W' 'i '■M K''>*.*'^ by tl the 24 pany shou pany 24 the that ■M eyes varic Com SELECT 'dOMMrrrEB ON THE HUDSON'S BAT COMPANY. 137 i ■)' ■ .*,■; 'if f >■ •' w 3481. Mr. Ro^uci.] Bat I rappoM you hold joonelf respon^ble for erery Mr. A. Miner. part of the evidence ii^ich you are nam giving as your own opinion ?— I do. 3482. Mr. Grogan.] I referred yon to page 8&iioder the head of the question, s Msrch 1 dj?. " Are there any schools for the instruction of the natives where you have been ?** There are five answers of these five seirvants, which> down to 1849, you believe to be literally ooRect?—Yes^ I ^. 3483. Ave you able to say whether, at the present date, you consider that those answers would be applioable f^-^l believe so ; with the exception which 1 hove fonneriy mentioned. 2484^ Namely, that there is one school to which assistance is given of 100 /. a year? — ^Yes, and'honaiother. 2485. The next question is, " Are you aware 6f any attempts of any kind havinpf been made by the (!^mpahy t6 civilise thfe natives and instruct them in religion?" You have the adswers beforjB you. tfo. \. " They are kept in ignorance and darkness." No. 2. " No." Nd. 3. '* N6nei" No. 4. ** Not aware of any." And No. 6. " Not aware of imy." Are you equally satisfied of the correctness of these replies in 1849 as you were of the previous ones?— That is my opinion at the present time, distinguishing between the attempts made by the Misiionary Societies, and partially assfstraby the Hudson's Bay CJompany, as we heard the other day, and the attempts made by the Hudson s Bay Company themselves. 2486. You say the missionaries partially assiisied bv the Hudson's Bay Com- pany. Can you define it more accurately ? — I heard it stated the other day, in in reply to a question of this nature, that the Company give certain sums of money, varying from 501. to 150/., to missionaries. I know thct these are given to the missionaries Individually ; that nO account is exacted of the expen- diture of these sums ; that no retuifns are made th the Company of the way in which education may be advanced by these sums ; th^dvt they are ^ven, in fact, to the missionaries, and not to the missions, and are, 'upon the whole, rather an impediment to them than- otherwise. 2487. Chairman.^ How do you mean ** an impediment" to them?— In this way, that it makes them shut their eyes to many matters which occur. 2488. Mr. Edward EUice.'] I believe those missionaries are not appointed by the Company ?— No, by no means; they are paid f^m other sources, and. these sums of money are given to them additionauy. lajqi loth to bi^ ro, but v#^ -t-'H ' they are, in effect, sops to the missionaries. '?,4 Iv^ 2489. Chairman.'} In point of fact, do you believe that Christianity tas made (-'i-^-- any progress among the Indian tribes?— I beheye it has made /ery rapid progress in the last ifew years, since the bishop went out there. 2490. Is that among the tribes in the immediate vicinity of the settled country, or far back into the wilderness?— As far as the Saskatchawan. I ,i;.v believe' that, at the missionary station, near Cumberland-house, on i^ Sas- : 'vv' kaCchawan, the Indians have made very great progress. 'xl:^. r!^^ '< • . 2401. I believe the settlers at the Red River are, upon the whole, a very ' mom and well-ordered community, are they not?— -I believe so;^ especifdly the English race, and their descendants. \i ;!■ v>^ i^i i^^ j^l 2492. Mr. Edward EUice.'] Your observation with regard to these sums of money being a sop to the missionaries, I presume, does not apply to the sum of mo^ey that the Company pay to the bishop ? — The sum of money that is paid to the bishop by the Company is p^d under an^ sjirraiigement sanctioned by the Court of Chancery. The Company cannot withdraw it if they try, but ,,; the otheijs they can withdraw. ?^ K 2493. You are aware that it was a voluntary gift on the part of the Com- '* :*\ pany?— ^Yes, I believe it was; on the understanding that Mr. Leith's bequest should be devoted to the establishment of a bishopric, the Hudson's Bay Com- ptmy added a certain amount. 2494. Mr. Kinnaird,'] You say that the missionaries accept these sums from the Company as sops to clo8e their eyes to various 'things ? — They act as sops, that is their effect ; 1 should be sorry to say they were accepted as Such. :!495. You day that they are given as sops, which itiduCies them to rfosfe their eyes to various matters; will you kindly stiate to the Committed what are the various matterS' to which they close their eyes ? — ^The obstrtltctions which the' Company make to the settlement of Indians around them. M?3\t(«*:Tv2 f 'A^H ■:M -■ 1 n II II 11 i;i II ! n % i??6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Ur. J. Itbuler. 5 March 1857. think it would be better for the that whole territory, in order to ^r^ tur trade, and under thoM circumstanees I jurisdiction of Canada to be extended over prevent disorders arising in that territory. 2528. Buf; that administration might be m^e local, although the head quarters of the government were at a distance in Canada ? — It must be local to a certain extent. I presume that the Red River Settlement, for example, would send representatives to the Canadian Parliament immetliately t that there would be townships erected in cultivated districts in the same way as in Canada, and that the people living in those settlements would spread themselves northward and engage in the fur trade ; and that eventually the fur trade, which is now forced through the unnatural channel of Hudson's Bay, would be Inrought dowa through the route that connects Lake Superior with Lake Winnip<». 2529. In your opinion the distance of toat country from the head quarters in Ganada would not impede a very efficient local administnUion r — ^The distance is not great. I have the distances in miles between Red River and York Factory and Hudson'9 Bay on one side, and between Red River and Lake Superior on the second, and between Red River and St. Peter's on the third, comparing the three routes to Red River. 2530. Will you state the distances to which you allude } — Beginning from Pembina, which is precisely on the boundary line, there are 163 miles to the mouth of Red River ; across Lake Winnipeg, 300 miles more ; thence to York Factory, 382 miles ; making a total of 845. The route to the Falls of St. An- thony, that is the route through Minesota, is as follows : from Pembina to the Sioux River is 310 miles. '2531. Mr. Charkt FitzwUliam.'] Whereabouts is the Sioux? — It is about half way between Pembina and the Crow River ; thence to Crow River is 439 miles j thence to the Falls of St. Anthony, where St. Peter's is situated, 1 believe, is 300 more ; making a total of 1,049 miles from the frontier. From Pembina to Fort .Alexander, that is down the river and up and across the Lake to Winnipeg River ; the Winnipeg River, is 230 miles ; up the Winnipeg River to the Lake V;' of the Woods is 175 miles ; across the Lake of the Woods is 75 miles ; thence to Fort William, on Lake Superior, is 453 miles ; making a total of 933 mileai That is a circuitous route. A shorter route is by going from Red River direct to the Lake of the Woods by Rat River or Reed Grass River, which enables us to avoid obstructions in Winnipeg River. It shortens the route by 405 tniks, leaving the distance between the settled part of Red River and Lake Superior S28 miles, the shortest route of any. 2.532. Is there a portage from the Rat or Reed Grass River across to the Lake' of the Woods ? — There is an actual outlet, by the account of Major Long, who has made a topographical survey of the whole of that district ; he was sent there by order of the United States Government, and has published the mo^t minute and reliable account of that territory which we have. ^.y^WS.'^V ^aS'i- So that it is a continuous water communication ? — ^Yes. 2.<)34. Mr. Roebuck] You just now said that you thought that that portion X of the territory east of the Rocky Mountains should be aggregated to Canada if -iand submitted to its jurisdiction ? — Yes. •' 2535. Would not it be possible to erect that territory into a separate indi- vidual colony, bordering upon Canada, just as Minesota borders upon another State in the United States ? —There is not capital or wealth enough in that ter- ritory to develope its resources. ;y.*^'.rv ;ttv ;':• 2.536. Do you know the number of inhabitants required to make a territory ' ;f;.li ', v In the United States ? — I forget the exact number ; I am not certain. ''■■ y -i' ^^ f:'\, ^537. It must begin at some time, and would it not be possible to erei;t it into i^!' .;;.>.?, -'a separate colony so soon as a sufficient number of inhabitants got there to "ri ,'J^-*li?.^ create a body of persons subject to dominion r — The Red River Settlement is now capable of being formed into such a territory, as far as regards the number ' of the population. f 2538. Why would you aggregate it to Canada r — I think it would be more •advisable, because the Canadians would assist in the development of the ' Resources of this great territory, whereas the Red River settlers have not the means of doing justice to the country in which the settlement is placed. 2539. How does it happen that the Canadians would be more able to develope the resources of the country, if the country were under the dominion '. of the Government of Canada, tlian if it were governing itself ? —There would *'' be ^ii'^^': ^W Riverl done Ibeli] 25' made] addre 0.2J '-*Jk ,i&L':J ■■^: ;«»!»};.:* ;^ji»*'ii^i.v^s:.:.vv:>'.'=iKv(^Vi "&: fK ft- •■''7^^ SELECT COMMirrEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY, i ji be a greater interest on the part of the Canadians to open up a commuiuoa' Mr. A. MmMv tion ; for example, between Lake Superior and Lake Winnipeg. They would ■ be directly interested in the fur trade, and they would f^ply capital to the 5 Mvc^ *M7> opening up of a practicable route, which the Red Rirer people hare no means of effecting. 3540. Would they be more dir«ctly interested when the countnr was aqder their own dominion than when the country was goreming itseu ? — I believe they would ; they are asking for the territory. 3541 . I suppose you are speaking of the interests of individuals, not of Ihe interests of the States f — I am speaking of the interests of the Canadas as a province ; I think they would \m mure directly interested in the Red River territory if it formed a portion of Canada, if it was called Canada North, for example, than if it was erected into a separate State, as you suggest. 3543. Then do vou suppose that the people of the United States are not 10 much interested m the settlement of Minesota, now that it has become i| State, as they would have beet if it had been aggregated to Iowa ? — I do not think the piarallel hokis good exactly, for in one case you aggregate one State to another State, but here you aggregate an undeveloped country to a riohir country than itself. 2543. Supposing Minesota to be a territory, do you think that the people of the United States would be more interested in peopling that territory u it were united to Iowa than as a separate territory ? — That is a question which it is difficult to answer. I do not think that these considerations weigh with people in settling Minesota at all. 3544. Oo you mean this, that the government under which the country is, {f the country be well governed, is not a matter of consideration with private adventurers ? — I think that in the United States it is generally understood that all territories are governed pretty neariy in the same way ; that a good govern- ment is obtained in aU the States. 2545. If there were a good government in that territonr, and that good ' \ government were derived from the people themselves rather than firom Canada, do you tldnk that there would be tiie same interest in the people of Canada to aid and assist in the settlement of that country ?— I am not competent to answer that question. I can only give my own opinion, which is what L ^ave said before, that there would be a greater interest on the part of the Canadian in developing the resources of that country if it formed a portion of Canada • . a than if it formed a separate province ; for we all know that there is a certain jealousy between the British provinces of North America ; for instance, I think .' -y, Canada East would do more for Canada West than it would do for Nova Scotia, which is a separate province. 2546. Lord Stanley.'] As I understand you, your great object is to obtain a ' ;',< convenient line of communication from the Red River to Canada t — Yes, that I is the great desideratum for those territories. 3547. Red River having at present no outlet exceptin? the long and incon- Tenient one by Hudson's Bay and the one through the United States ? — Yes. 2548. And you think that the resources of the Red River Settiement are not in themselves sufficient to contribute materially towards the making of such a line of communication ? — I believe they are not. 2549. Therefore, if the work ia to be done at all, it must be done either by the assistance of the Imperial Government or by Canada ? — Precisely so. 2550. Sir John Pakington.'] You stated just now that the Hudson's Bay Com- pany obstructed the settlement of Indians near the missionaries ; did you mean to make that statement generally or only with reference to the Red River Set- tlement ? — Generally ; and I referred to certain missionaries who could give more speoial information upon the point than I can. 2551. How do you know the fact ? — It has been stated to me by themselves. 2552. Mr. Grogan.] Is it within your knowledge that the settlers at the Red River Settlement complain of the existing form of government r — They have done so ; they did so when the petition was sent over nere. 2553. Do they still adhere to the complaint which they made at that time ? — I believe they have practically taken the government into their own hands. 2554. Is it within your knowledge that any application or complaint was ever made to the Government of America on the subject ? — There was a petition addressed by the Red River settlers to the American Government, I believe. 0.25. R 2 2555. Did .■i'i'', ' ;y i: : 1' ■I • « 1 ■;:9i i 132 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr A. Iibultr. fi March 1857. i ^ 2555' Did you ever see a copy of that petition ?— I hare a rough copy of it ; hut whether it is authentic or not I har^ no means of saying. 2556. You are not abie to speak of your own Imowledge ? — No ; but there is a gentleman who can do so ; Mr. M'Laughlin. 3557. Mr. Addetley.] WMak'ia the date of the petition ?— It was about 1846, at the time of the excitement connected with the Oregon bounduy question. 9558. What was the general purport of the petition ? — I believe that they desired the American Government to annex the Red River territory to the Unit< d States, and jpromised thrai assistance agamst the Hudson's Bay Com- pany, in the event of a war ; I believe that was the object of it. 2559. Mr. Edward EUiee.] Was that John M'Laughlin ?— Yes. 3560. Mr. Roebuck.] How many years were you in the country before you left it? — I was there up to about the age of 19, wiih the,9xception of about fovir years that I was at school in this country ; I was all that time in those territories. 3561. When you left the territory you were about 20 years of age? — Under 20. 3562. You had a full opportunity of judging of the climate ? — Yes ; and more especially from what I have since r^td of the climate, and facts which I have collected bearing upon it. 3563. Jud^ng firom your knowledge of the climate of the country, how far north do you suppose it to be a habitable country, and one in which settlement could be made ? — I have myself raised com as far north as Fort Norman, which is near the Arctic Circle, on Mackenzie's River; I have laised barley and potatoes there. 3564. When you use the word " com," do you mean 'Indian corn or cereal r '— Eiadey and oats ; chiefly barley ; I have also raised potatoes. 3565. Do you know the latitude of Fort Norman?— it is about latitude 64 or 66, 1 bdieve. 3566. How many miles is that north of our boundary? — I could hardly answer the question without reference to a map; it is upwards of 1,000 miles> 2567. It would be a sufficient territory to make a large state? — A very large state indeed. 3568. Mr. Bell.'] Fort Norman is near the Great Bear Lake, is it not ; the most northerly lake on the map ? — It is opposite the Great Bear Lake. 3569. Mr. Roebuck.] Then in your opinion settlement might extend to the Great Bear Lake ? — It is possible. 3570. Mr. Edward Elttce.] Is it probable ? — No, I believe it is not probable ; for there is such an immense extent of territory south of it that, it is not necessary. ' i.'^>^,;:.-V;' 3571. Mr. Roebuck.] Taking half way, would wheat ripen halfway up to the Great Bear Laker — I have here the limits of the cultivation of all these cereal grains from observation. Wheat grows freely, according to the statement of Sir John Richardson, who has pdd a great deal of attention to that subject, as far north as the banks of the Saskatchawan River. 3573. The North or South Saskatchawan r— There is but one branch where the wheat has been tried. The southern branch is not occupied at all by the Hudson's Bay Company. Wheat grows occasionally, but it cannot be depended upon, at Fort liard, on one of the tributaries of the Mackenzie River. It is the most northerly situation which I know where wheat has ever been attempted. Barley grows as far north as Fort Norman. It has been tried at Fort Good Hope, and has failed. The limit of the growth of potatoes may also be 8aid to be Fort Norman. Although they have been raised at Fort Good Hope, 1 believe the crop may be considered a failure. Maize, or Indian com, is cultivated in what is called its green state, between the parallels of 49° and 51° ; beyond that it is uncertain. 3573. Will it ripen there ?~It ripens very well at Red River, which is about 49*, and I believe it is grown at Cumberland House. 3,574. Mr. Loae,] Does it bear the grain at Red River ? — Yes, verv large ; as well as it does in the States of America. A kind of rice, culled " wild rice," is grown in the territory between Lake Winnipeg and Lake Superior ; in the lakes and rivers, in very large quantities indeed. It is the chief food of the Chippewa Indmns. m&w3 '»wfe*!'*tfi*'%i'Wfi|[*rit?-Tii»nid^^ ■' ■t*"**'"'^ "Xi^^il ,\'i>- ■, , ■»•; VK hi ^% ^- \>>;' SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HdbSOl^'S BAY COMPANY. 133 2575 River ?- 2576 not. 2577 Mr. Edward Ellice.] Have you seen the Indian grain ripen at Red -Repeatedly ; at least the Indian corn. Mr. Itoebuck.'] Have you ever been in Vancouver's Island ? — I have Mr. A. IMaer. Mr. Adderley.'] Do you know of any amelioration of climate by cul- tivation ? — ^I have heard of frosts in the Red River Settlement injuring the crops ; but in my time I never heard of such cases, and I presume from that that the cultivation does ameliorate the climate. 3.578. Mr. Bdl.] Do you know anything of the fisheries on Mackenzie River? — Nothing, except from what I have seen there myself. There is no account of the fisheries anywhere. A few fish are found in the river, but it is not a productive fishery. 2579. It is not valuable ? — It is not valuable. I presume you allude to the;^< fishery in the river itself? \ \ 2580. Yes, or towards the mouth ? — There is a valuable whale fishery to the^ j.j north of it. 2<)8i. Have you reason to believe that the re^ons where there are whales would be accessible to whalers ? — I believe that whalers have gone into that part round by Behring's Straits. I have not the document by me, but the President of the Geographical Society, Admiral Beechy, in his address to the Gt;uT''apbical Society, about two years ago, gave a statement that the United Stctes had derived from that portion of the Arctic Sea, in the shape of oil and other materials ftova. the whale fishery, a return of about, I thiuk, 7,000,000 dollars. I cannot undertake to state the sum. 2582. Did you ever hear of any porpoise fishery near the mouth of MaO'*^ kenzie's River ?- I know that whales are abundant there, for I have seen portions of the skin of the whale in the possession of the Indians who usually visited- our establishments. 2583. When you were in the Mackenzie River district, were spirits intro-^-j, duced among the Indians ? — Not in the Mackenzie River district. 2584. Mr. Edtoard Ellice.'] Will you look at the mouth of the Mackenzie.,,, River. Do you see Baring Island just beyond it ? — I know Baring Island. 2.<)85. Was not that the place where Captain McClure was laid up for sof many years and nearly lost? — Yes ; the large Baring Island, for there are two. 2586. It is in the Arctic Sea? — Yes. 2587. Mr. Bell] That is considerably north of the mouth of Mackenzie River ? —Yes, and to the east considerably. , ., , 2588. Mr. Edward Ellice.} The navigation off the mouth of Mackenzie Riyef ' is not free, is it ? — That bay is generally open in the summer. / ,;?. 'ii.c.:),i.^-u,* 2589. How do you get at it ? — By Behring's Straits. 2590. Is it always accessible from Behring's Straits ? —There are no means of ascertaining that : it has been got at through Behring's Straits, and ulsQ through Mackenzie's River. Franklin passed from Mackenzie's River up '^ towaras Behring's Straits, and Pullen and others came from Behring's Straits to Mackenzie's River. „ 3591. Do Captain Collinson's and Captain McClure's accounts lead you to^" suppose that there is a free navigation generally through Behring's Straits to the mouth of the Mackenzie River ? — I have seen nothing to disprove the im- pression on my mind that that part of the Arctic Ocean is generally open and accessible, but I know that it is not accessible more to the north of that. 2592. Mr. Bell.] What sort of a river is Mackenzie River ; is it a navigable ,, river ? — A very fine large navigable river. ''■^' 25 93- To what distance up from the mouth is it navigable without rapids or*' l other obstructions ? — ^There is one immaterial obstruction near Fort Good Hope. ' ' I know of no other, until you come to the Great Slave Lake. ' 3594. Do you mean that vessels of any considerable size could pass, with th^f \^. exception of that obstruction at Fort Good Hope, into the Slave Lake ? — Yes,'^ without any interruption whatsoever ; it is a beautiful river. -^^ 2595. Mr. Adderley.] For how many months in the year is it so navigable r ' ' — ^The ice opens at Fort Simpson, which is the first fort from the Great Slave Lake, about the beginning of May. 1 should say that it opens at the mouth in ; about a month after, and it closes about October, generally. 2596. Mr. Bell,] From the Slave Lake into Athabasca Lake, up the Slave Fiver, is there much obstruction ? — The Slave Lake itself is navigable, but the 0.J5. B 3 Slave March 1857. • -, ^^■^H ■ •11 .Ui 5 s P tJn 134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ::^V^i Mr. A. libUter, Slave River, ivhich connects the great Slave Lake with Athabasca Lake, is interrupted by frequent portages. 5 March 1857. 3597. Mr. Edward EUice.'] Do you think, practically speaking, navigation could be carried on there with steamboats ? — On the Mackenzie's River, un- doubtedly. - ^ 2598. Do you think they could be got there ? — They must be either built on the banks of the Mackenzie's River, or they must be got by Behring's Straits. 2599. Mr. Blackburn.} I think you stated that the company had thrown ob- stacles in the way of exportation from Red River. What obstacles ? — There were two gentlemen of the name of McDermot and Sinclair, (the case, I believe, has been reported in evidence before,) who desired to engage in the tallow trade from the buffaloes, of which there are immense numbers in the plains to the ■ . west of Red River. The tallow was taken down to York Factory. * 2600. But you said by way of Pembina and the United States ? — I do not:*; know that I stated that in particular, but I stated general obstructions ; between the United States and the Red River the obstacles were simply fiscal obstacles in the way of customs. 3601. By the United States: — Goods imported from the United States to the Red River, and goods exported from the Red River to the United States, pay, or did pay, a very heavy duty. |: 3602. To whom ? — To the Hudson's Bay Company, at the time to which h refer- 3603. Mr. Edward EUice.'] Was not duty also paid by the Hudson's Bay Company itself upon those imports ? — I am not aware whether it was so or not^ but I believe it to be probable. ■* if ' 3604. Do 3rou know for what purpose that duty was levied ? — I believe iffi; vent to the Red River Colonial Treasury. I-.; 2605. To the settlement ? — To the settlement, so far as I know. a;' 3606. Mr. Roebuck.] Your statement, I think, is this : that the Hudson's Bay^ ' Company levies a duty upon exports and upon imports too ; am I rieht in that supposition ? — Upon goods going out from Red River to the United States, I am not aware that any export duty is levied. When I said exports and imports, I spoke of the obstructions which were thrown in the way of exports and imports. 3607. What obstructions are there upon exports from Red River to America ? — If they are furs or bu&lo robes, I believe they have been prevented from beiiu; taken at all. , 2008. So that the Hudson's Bay Company prevent any exports of fur from ' ' '""'^i*^ their territories into the United States ? — 1 believe so. 2609. Mr. Edward Ellice.} That they claim by virtue of their monopoly ? — ^Yes. ;^:> . V 2610. Mr. Roebuck."] And by that means they prevent the people of Red River Settlement papug for anything which they might pay ibr by that means ? — Yes. • >^ 2611. So that that is one obstruction to trade ? — Yes. j« ; '. ';t 2612. I suppose the great means of commerce which those people possesd ; V - consists in peltries ? — I know of no other article which would bear the cost of .J, - ; I transport between Red River and any part either in Hudson's Bay or in the ":'''•■ ;■ 3|; United States. i 2613. So that the Hudson's Bay Company, preventing the export of peltries,^ ,,..', .:\ really puts an end to all commerce in that country ? — Yes. 2614. Mr. Edward EUice.] Did you hear Mr. Kemaghan's evidence on the last day ; Mr. Kernaghan stated that he complained of the trade being diverted by Pembina, instead of going to Lake Superior ; and he stated that as many as' 5Q0 wagons went down to St. Paul's from the Red River and sold their goods ^ there, and came back again with supplies to the Red River ; was that a fact or ^ .':^;;> not? — I believe that there is a caravan which leaves the Red River for the ^1 v ?J .^ ;;; United States very often; what they take out with them I do not know; .' • : ' ■ *' ; I think it is chiefly for the purpose of getting supplies there that they do go. X;,'^ 2615. But they must take out something to buy the supplies which they ,' '" bring back f— Yes ; it is chiefly merchants in the colony. r^}/?-; - -' 2t)i6. You do not know it of your personal knowledge, not having been there .' so long; but have you heard that the Company throw any obstructions or obstacles in the way of these caravans going there, and that the> try to prevent them ?r— I do not know. ■„ . --yf „ ' ^M-' ' ' 2617. Mr. v^ *fiS 'Vk )b- las . ide ;-, lOt 'A m. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 135 26 1 7. Mr. JRoebucA.'] You do not know if one of those wagons was loaded up Mr. A. hUtUr. to the top with furs whether it would be obstructed or not by the Company ? — It would be seized ; I know that there is a case of that kind on record. 5 March 1857. 2618. So that if a trader traded away his goods for furs with the United States he would not be allowed to take back those furs into his own country?— >. I do not think he would. 'J619. Mr. Edward ElKce.] That would be an infringement of the Company's licence ?— Precibely. 2620. Mr. Roebuck.] Therefore the Company's licence opposes trade in that country ? — ^To that extent it does ; there are other matters which are mentioned in this land deed which appear to be obstructions. ^ 263 1 . Mr. Grogan.] What are they ? — ^THose holding land are not allowed to import goods into Red River from any port but the port of London, nor from *, di : ; v ^ any part in that port of London but from warehouses belonging to the Hudson's • f:^(f=f^'f Bay Company, nor in any other vessel or ship than the Company's ship. They ";'*:•.■■ are not allowed to introduce these imports into any port but one in Hudson s ■:: :^.f ^'C'iy-- Ba)r, Port Nelson, which is named as York Factory, and there they must pigr a i^,. ■ ?^^: customs duty of five per cent. • '* . ^*: ■ V? 3622. Mr. Edward Ellice.] In what page of the deed is that? — ^The first ; iv \? page. 2623. 2624. 3625. What line ?— About 10 lines from the bottom. . r Of what date is that deed ?— 1 844. Mr. Adderley.'] Supposing the whole of this territory to be taken out of the hands of the Hudson's Bay Company, do you think that you could make your property at the Red lliver Settlement more profitable than you now do ? — It would become more profitable in the course of time with the increase of population. 2626. Do you yourself consider, as the owner of property in the Red River Settlement, that the claims of the Hudson's Bay Company interfere with your making the greatest profit of your property ? — I do. I think that my property would be more valuable under the administration of Canada, for example, than und^ the administration of the Hudson's Bay Company. It would become more profitable in the course of time. No immediate change probably would tak^^ place. * 2627. Do you suppose that if the territory altogether was handed over from the Hudson's Bay Company to the Canadian Government, it would instantly alter your mode of treatment of that property ? — It is not likely that I shall ever return to Red River in my life ; therefore I cannot answer that question directly. But I think it would have a very immediate effect upon those living in the ter- ritory ; they would have an outlet for their produce in a very short time. People from Canada would come in v\o would require flour end other produce, which would give a ready market for all that the settlers can raise. 2628. Do you consider that it would increase both the outlet of the trade of the country itself and the immigration of people into the country ? — Yes, one would follow the other ; one is intimately connected with the other. 2629. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] That is to say, if there were a good communica< tion made with Canada ? — Yes. 2630. Mr. Adderleif.] And you think that that good communication would be more likely to be made under those circumstances ?— I see no prospect of its ever being made otherwise. 263 1 . Mr. Blackburn.] I think you said that it was a verj' fine country and fit for settlement between Lake Winnipeg and Lake Superior ? —In parts. 2632. Have you ever been through it yourself? — No ; I judge from descrip- tions. 2633. Mr. Lowe.] Is there anything else which you wish to state to the Committee ?— Only that it is very desirable, I think, on the part of this Com- mittee, to endeavour to have that territory conveyed to Canada as speedily as possible, for the United States have their eye upon this settlement, and I believe are fomenting the discontents which are going on there. I hold in my hand extracts from a treaty between the United States Government and the Indians and half-breeds occupying the upper part of the Red River Valley, the object of which obviously is to get the Red River settlers now within our territory to their side of the border. 2634. Mr Adderley.] To Minesota ?— Yes. " ' - >-."•• ••-» - v,, 0.24. R4 , ' ">■ 2635. Mr. M' S* *'■ :r*I.A ■%?'.■»„ wS-ss MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE £ March 1857. _M m Mr. il. /iiMter. 2635. Mr. Lowe.] Whence do you get that treaty ?— It is in a book published by Mr. Ross, of the Red River Settlement ; it is extracted from the Minesota Pioneer of the 30th of October 1851.' 2636. Mr. Grogan.} Do you refer to Mr. Alexander Ross ? — Yes. 2637. Mr. Lffwe.'] What is the date of that treaty r— 1851. 2638. Between whom is it?— Between the United States Government k| ' and the Indians and half -breeds who lay a claim to the upper part of the Red River territory. The object was to induce the Red River half-breeds to go up and lay clahu to the territory ; they give them 30,000 dollars in hand, and for the next 20 years annually the sum of 10,000 dollars, except 2,000 dollars of it which is reserved by the President, llie object is to get them there and keep them there ; therefore I think it is desirable that there should be immediate action in reference to this territory, otherwise there is a likelihood of their being drawn over to the United Stales to our prejudice. 2639. Mr. Grogan.] You mentioned to us that cereal props could be grown up to a very high latitude in your knowledge ; is there anything peculiar in the formation of the land, or the geological qualities of the land, that would /||;' conduce to the growth of those crops ? — Wherever the limestone secondary 1^ ", formations occur, there agriculture can be carried on ; that is to say, in all the n' country intervening between the great lakes and the Rocky Mountains ; all to the east of that district, with the exception of a small district round Hudson^s Bay, is a granitic region filled with Is^es and swamps ; there cultivation to any great extent is not practicable, I believe. ^■■■ 2640. Mr. Charks F^tzwilliam.] In Ciolonel Lefroy's evidence he speaks of the f^^' frozen ground, and says that the soil is never thawed; that it is permanently frozen ; can you explain what he means by that ? — ^The northern parts of both the Anatic and American continents down to a considerable extent have the soil frozen for several feet deep. I believe that the ground ice, as it is called, commences in those parts of America which have an average annual tempera- ture of 32 degrees ; that is a little to the north of the Saskatchawan River. It goes on increasing in depth until about Fort Simpson, where there is about 17 feet of permanently frozen ground. It thaws to a considerable extent in the summer season. But that does not interfere with the growth of trees, because they spread their roots over the frozen subsoil just as they would spread their roots over this table. 2641. Mr. iCtnnatW.] They do not sink into it ?— They do not sink into it; but those trees which have a large tap root, such as the oak and the other deciduous trees, do not flourish in those portions of the country which have a permanently frozen soil. 2642. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.] To what depth does the soil thaw in the summer time ? — At Fort Simpson, for example, in latitude 62", the thaw in Oc- tober extended down to 1 1 feet. There was an experiment made in that place ; that was the whole of the summer thaw. At York Factor}', which is nearly in the same latitude, I believe, on the shores of Hudson's Bay, the thaw had pene- trated only three feet. At Severn, which is further south, it had penetrated about five feet. All these experiments are detailed in the Edinburgh New Philo- sophical JounuJ for January 1841. A great variety of experiments were made and compared with experiments made in Siberia by Professor Baer, of St. Petersburgh. 2643. In the country that you are now speaking of there are thick forests of timber ; at Fort Simpson, at York Factory, and at Severn, it is a wooded coun- try ?•.— It is a well wooded country. 2644. In the event of the country being settled up, apd the consequent dis- appearance of the timber, would any material change be produced on the soil' in respect of thawing:— -If the woods were cut down, and a freer access afforded to the sun's rays, no doubt the thaw would be greater ; but I believe that there would be a permanently frozen subsoil, though at a greater depth from the surface. 2645. Would that ground ice interfere with agricultural operations P—Not pit all. 2646. Of no sort?— No, If the thaw is sufficiently deep, the frozen subsoil does not appear to affect the processes of vegetation in the smallest degree. In Siberia, which is in the same latitude as the northern parts of the Hudson's Bay Company's territories, there are large crops of wheat every year. 2647. Do - 4>- .all ■n ':'5t?f. j^Jrk.}^ --ipA ..S:. 'A«V ':^---^.ii^y nM i: V;''-. 5 March l857> SELECrr COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 137 9647. Do you think that the country on Mackenzie's River is at all adapted Mr. A.lMttr. tO'the ^ants of civilised man? — The climate is very severe there; but the soil. BO iiar as I have an opportunity of jud^ng, is tolerably well adapted for cul- tivation. You can raise barley and potatoes very well indeed. 2648. Mr. GroganJ] Without risk ? — Without any risk whatsoever. And on the river IJard, which comes from the mountains, you can raise large crops ; the soil is better on that river, and wheat has been occasionally raised. 3649. Mr. Bell.'] You mean that if there was anything to mduce people to settle there, independent of agriculture, they might cultivate anicuiture, but would not be likely to go there for agricultural pursuits alone ?— -No ; the yield is not equal of course to the yield of crops in more southern countries. . 2650. Mr. Charks FUzwitliam.'] Do you know the Saskatchawan River? — xwas bom upon the banks of that river. 2651. Where? — At Cumberlsjid House. _ 2652. Do you know anytUng of the coal on it?— I have collected all the information upon that subject, in a memoir which has been published by the Geological Society ; there are some specimens of the coal in this country which have been examined by Mr. Bowerbank, the greatest authority we have upon these matters, and I believe the general opinion of geologists is, that it is a tertiaiy coaL 2653. Mr. Roebuck.'] A lignite ? — Yes ; however, nothing more than the surface coal has been examined ; I have seen the coal in that portion of the coalfield running across Mackenzie's River near Great Bear Lake ; there is no doubt that there is a great coalfield there all the way to the Rocky Mountaios ; the coal was tolerable, where I saw it. 2654. If that country is granitic, how comes it that there is tertiary coal there ?— The country is not grantic ; the granitic tract lies east of the great lakes, which are situated in the line of fracture between the prinuury and secondary formation?, their basins being mostly excavated in the latter. You find the east side always graiutic, and the west side always limestone, or some secondary formation . 2655. So that that portion of the territory lying west of the line which you speak of is capable of ciiitivation because it is upon limestone ? — Yes. The Rev. Griffith Owen Corbeit, called in ; and Examined. 2656. Mr. Lowe.] ARE you a Clergyman of the Church of England? — ^Yes. 2657. Have you been in the Hudson's Bay Company's territory?— Yes. 2^)58. During what period ? — I left England in 1861 and arrived at Quebec. I then went to Montreal, stayed there till the navigation opened up, and thence I went to Bufi^o, across the territory to Chicago ; from Chicago to the Mis- sissippi, and up the Mississippi 400 miles to St. Paul, and from St. Paul along the St. Peter's River, and thence up towards the Missouri to Pembina, and from Pembina to Red River. 26.59. How long did you reside in the Hudson's Bay Company's territories? •^ About three years. I left in 1855. I took charge of the Grand Uapids Dis- trict, St. Andrew's, as it is now called, the largest parish on the Red River. 2660. Whereabouts is that? — About 15 miles from the seat of govern, ment. 2661 . What was ■ your duty there ? — I had sole charge of the parish, the Grand Rapids District. ^ 2662. Were you a chaplain of the Company? — No. •vt'^ij^f^ft ■: , 2663. In what capacity were you there? — As a missionary of tbe Colonial Chxirch atd School Society. 2664. Did yoii receive any payment from the Company ? — No. 2665. Weie you under the Bishop? — Yes, '/, . , 2666,, Mr. Gordon, Did you ever visit Portage-iar- Prairie ? — ^Yes. ^ ■' 2667. Was not there a desire to form a missionary settlement at that place ? -Yes. 2668. WLf.t led to that desire ? — There were a number of settlers congregated on the ilLS&iniboine River, about 50 or 60 miles from the seat of government, nnd these settlers petitioned for u missionary to be despatched to them for the histruction of themselves and their children. f ^ ''';'■■ ■■ 0.25, S ,- . :.-.,;.,ef •■•.;', /r- "vi 2669. Was Rev. 0. 0. CoThett. '...■tfyui'rj-;..-.',^ ?■■ ---/". '*','-'--^'"> ^ ** :■> r\' % ^'•JV- ; ■ :;a^;A: ■ ■ i-^V- V t ' ''- ' ■ ' ; v. -■<; •j^:-^' _ i- '' -''ry^. - >• 'k i^: ■ ', , ' i I' ^ ■?■ * • "'■,.' ,,Xi ^|.|^.^ri|j|5i??: i3» MJNUTB^ 0F ^yiDBNGB TAfCBN BPFORB THB R«^. O. a Ctririt 9^' Was way object^ji jnade to the formation of a station there ?— Yes. 5 March 1847. .\^'- m-. »f; '• 267! . Wbr, 6'wde»/«.)^^ ^y^t. objection^ ..MTj^if! tqad^ ,to the formation of a settle- meiDtJhere, ana by whoin ?~I was given to understand that the Hudson's Ba> Cbmpany i^^if^'not pe^pit^ 267a. U)Ta,Shinttej/^ li'^jaierf^y,. Waw^y *— Npi it .is pw^^ "^^J ^^^J^J^f.^f^^f^i}^^^'^^ before me, and I vf as to, chooefe one.'of thie tm,;f\^^»(tmfr featvures.obonected with these two spots, ijij^, (^,Pocta|g^-|^|riW^W^ w^ *Ke ^oii^t'i9^,,<>f !*^ Hudson's Bay; ^y, so p^ uthprjafif^^ c<^untry, aji well as Com (ot autbiqrities 2674, But were you informed of it?— Yef, by tjl^, ar<»defkooin and by the, bidiopi. . . . , . ,, ,, , , ' ;,.',■ .■ -,... ^',,-i J., ,'.,."", 'v.. ,. •■, ', ■' ' ,^5^67:5;^ Ybii WCT^ ' pot mformticl 6( it jby^, any offiow , of th^, Hudson's Bay Company ?— I think I hao intercourse leit)^ ^he Qffiqecs jof thie Hudson's Bay Company on the same subject. 2676. Were you tqld to \ybat limits , that prphijjition extended ?— 1 believe that the prohlbitipn woi^Id extend as fat as this, th^t no jnissipflary would be able to obtain his supphes for bis station if he went to that spot, so that he would,])e starved^ if he ordered jiis good^, for, ef ample,, fro^. London, .he could not rely upon getting' theiu. •. i * .. -> .'Pi 2677. You have misunderstood the question wnich t intended to put to yoii^/ To whfd; ex,tent of coimt^T did this prohibiten of settling in a particular parj;! of the country, f^ply?—tueprbiubition was directed, to the formation of a nussionaiT MUiement in one parjtic'ular ^/ 267,8.' flir. CfprdofiA Whpt reasons we^e asagned: i&>r iti?. — I believe i,t was' staled tbaii the di£5cmtiea would be tod great in governing the people there, and al^o that the people mig^t settle Uiwer ,down tpyr^M^ the colony of Red River iniittead of pfttling sp'higltup on^tne Asdiu'>oine ftiver: but th«|« was a desire on the part of the people at Portage-la-i^irie, on account of the timber, to form a settlement there. Ihey were also driven up there, I believe, from the upper part of the settltement on accpunt pf t^e floods... 2679. Are we to understand that the prohibition was only to a missionary going an4 8e(tli,og there,, or to tbe people collecting there {—iTo the people coUectiog as well) as to missionaries g^iog., . , , . 2680. WajS that opposition persevered m ?— Continuously, for several years j I believe it has only recently been abolished. ,,.4. 268i,,.H<^wl^|tbe^^t last ,9ve9rcome?-<-J^ the continued petseveranptf' of tbe mtimpniuries, and by the perseverfmce 6t the people there, who turned o^L d{dterif)med j(t all rie^ txt forifi ^ misiiipnafy ^t&i'pn ; and alsto, I believe, by the mdiws having gathered aroimd them, an^ in cpnp^ipL^ with the se^itlers, thajt a missioha^ should be appointed to that locUity. J^^^v-^* 2682. I)|jdy6\ievei^ know of , any objection being made to the formation Or a mlssionaij st^tipi^ or segment in, any qther portion of the territpry?— We consi4 which tihe settlers could have lands. The originid terms were that each- settler should pay down 2 /. before he could set his foot upon a lot of land ; qnd at the tiiiie of which I speak the Hudson's Bay Company raised the terms up to 12 /. ; so that no settler could legally settle down upon a lot of land without going dpwp ,to ,t^he agent of the Hudson's Bay Company, at the Fort, and paying 127. ,t 2685. Was this a sum in addition to the price of the land ? — No ; those were the tfpms upon w,W^,tb«j^<<^^,.%^i,^^^^^ ft 'W* ^i^, depo«[t or pjledge. A councH S' :A '%'^r tbe exi ■ .;V'''--iV-(t.^.. ' ''.■'.'■ ■.■.';<:. .;*i.v''v ■■■■" :^;^:;i,::-f-.v.:' -%-M of i" K.- line . * -SiWin,; SELECT GOMMrTTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY ^OHI^ANY. 13^ council of my own people was fb^^on wicoii^'i 6f this, wisl^ng imQ to'repre- ^er! io.'o! sent this grievance to the Hudson's Ba^'Cbinpiiiy's dficierJ Ac'cordtni^ljr, I sought &n mterView With the Agent it tJppef 'Fort Garry, Mr. Btacki'who very 5 March 1857. kinSy received me, and ti^ed over the matter, and promised to r^resent it to . the authorities in London, but coilidhot promiere me any redress, f also r^re-.^ ' sented it to the bishop, b^tise it' Was the wish of th^ peopl^ that 1 shotdd do. so. The bishop said that the difficulties could not liaye been foreseen,^ but that he would represent it in other (Quarters also. JStiice the biJihop's arrival ii|,fL'' Eh^atid I'have asked his Lordship whether any chiinge has taken plilce for th«;p'' better; and he says that it is rather for the worse, because now the people''^:, have to pay down 16 /. instead of 13/. in my own immediate district. Therefore; 'A perhajtt had not this Committee bben tdttih^; I should have felt a desire, before, ; ' retum^g to the country, to have s6u^t an interview with the Colonial Secre**^;!*' tftiy, for the purjpos^ of having some chto^ introduced ; because we have^' eppealed to the authorities in the ooilhtry^ and hiLVe had no chiihge whatsoAver ^^>] in&odUced in my Own distrld;. • ' j ' •' ' t-f 2686. That deposit which you have spoken of, you think acts as a quasi prol - f^r hibition toi setdeniient'?— Yes : the' raising of th6 tti^'ob for the lands; and it^,.,.> ,y-ri^^K:';l'^: also n^eS the people indignant, because many of them sky,' "We were the^ f " '"''^ originial proprietors of the soil, and noW that we wish to settle'down and 'form ~ ;>,; •,. - - a settlement (and here is a missionary who has come all the Way froii England)*'. : P' : '^ : the teilns are raised so that We cannot pay them ; we h&ve hdt! the means of / paym^them. , , ' ' • 2687. You have mentioned two cases in which obstructious Were, as ^oili' think, made by the Company to the formation of a settlement ; can you fAviS' m any other instances within yotir oWn kriowldSge?^— I can mention ' ffmie]^.;;' instances ; and 1 can also, with reference to this ^ubj^t, give an Extract froi^i -^ a letter which I received recently from a missionary at the tied lUver Settle- v ; ment, who says : " Sir George Simpson expressed his displeasure! at Archdeicdn" ' , ■ : '■ Cochrane'sproceedings. at the Portage-la-Prairie, -and required that he with- draw and the place be left vacant ; to which the drchd6acon replied, • I wonder Sir George Simpson duels not know me better ; he thought to send me from thof C Grand Rapids, then to put me out of the Indian settlement ; and does he think I am now going to quit the portage? I am surprised that he has not learnt better by this time.*" I have the original of this letter with me, if the Chair-! man should like to see it. S 2688. Mr. jE^e/war Mr. Xovw.l This gentleman stated it as his opinion in conversation 3 —Yes. 2702. Mr. £oebucA.] And was the conduct of the Company in accwdance vrith that opinion .80 gi^en ? — The condupt (^ the Company, or the system of the Company as such, is exactly in accordance with it. . 2703.. Mr. Qivgan.] You foention this as having be^ a conversation among som&^ergymen and gentlemim assembled ;^ did they conour in the view wblcm was 90 expressed to them ; did ihey throw any doubt upwi the statement atall ?; — Not the slidbtest . ,' v , i , ;. 37Q4. Mr. ^of^on.] Were you ever infinrmed by any misiAonafy thaw tluit he had been dei^red to quit the country, and thiat on his request that the petscm ao desiring bim woulil put that desire into writing, the request had been decUned? — I have heard. Archdeaooa Cochrane state that. 2705. Mr. Lotce.] Of himself ?->Of hinaself; that when he was goipg on buildmg the church at the Grand Rapids, which is now the chief distriot in the Red River Settlement, so great was the excitement occasioned hy the intimidlltions.of Sir Geoi^ Simpson that for eight months no settler or native seemed to possess sufficient courage to lift an axe or hoe to proceed with the building, and that he was in the greatest possible trouble under the circum- stanoes ; that Sir George Simpson eventually went to him, and told him that he had better leave the country than build that church; that he then said, « WiU you put it upon papet, and i will go to Englmid if you will ? " and that Sir George declined putting it upon paper. 2706. Archdeacon Coehrane stated this to you, I understand ? — He stated this to me upon the occasion of the raising of the terms of taking the land to obstruct my own district; he sud, "I rarely do any good in this country vrithout having an opposition ; but we have tried in the lower part of the settlementi therefore go forward." He stated this to me to ^courage me» . 2707. Where ? — At my own station. .2708. When?— Perhaps in 1853 or 1854. > 2709. Was any one else present? — I am not sure,' but still his observations were well understood in the settlement. 2710. Is the archdeacon in England? — No. 2711. i4r. ^eard ^ceJ] He is at Red River, is not he?— Yes. 2712. Mr. Gcrdifn.] What is the physical character of the country? — It it very good for agricultural operations. 2713. How Cur from the banks of the river, in your ophiion, might agricultuml operations be profitably extended?— For a very great distance. 2714. More than a mile from the banks?—! have heard Mr. M'Dermott, who is, ; |)erhaps, the gpreatest merchant on the banks of the Red River, say, ajsain and ogain, that he is quite surprised that the authorities hi England do not extend the route vid Lak^ Superior, and open up a grand overland route, and form a great nation, from Lake Superior right across the Rocky Mountains i that it could be done, and that he is surprised that towns and dties have not been jnedsed up. •27Mi. Is there timber or noal in the neighbourhood or your station r— There is a great deal of coal towards the source of the Assinibome river. 2716. How far from your 8tation?—Two hundred or three hundred miles; which coal might be brought down the river, and which it would be very desirable to work, because timber in those parts of the country is scarce ; the timber might be used for building purposes and the coal for fuel. 2717. I suppose that that 500 miles is a very interrupted navigation? — The, Hudson's Bay Company bring their furs and peltries all down the same river in •'"I large bateaux. 2718. Mr. lielL] Is that coal on the American side of the frontier or on the British Bide/fr-rC^ the British side, I believe. 2719. Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY C0M1>ANV. 141 9jig. Mr. OerdoH.] Do the people in yoiir district find a sufficient maricet Hur.O. O.C«iUk^ at the Company's stores for the produce which they hiiae ?-^By no means. ayao. Is there a quantity of surplus produce ? — ^^ere is nut a great quantity, 5 M«rch 1857. because they say» " If we raise it we cannot sell it." Consequently we cannot depend upon them for oqr supplies ; therefore a good deal of our time is dbliged to be directed to agricultural pursuits, which time might be devoted to educa- tional pursuits if the people were sufficieatly encouraged in ndaing their grain. ■ ,- *'■', ■'■' ''^''■ 2721 4 It i» your opinion, th!^ if t^ere werO a ftufficient market, even with the present population, agricultural pursuits might be profitably followed to a much larger ext^tT^— Yes, to an almost unlimited extent, up to a certain line tA latitude In the north, and still further north I beheve as we advance to tho western part of the continent. ■■^'■ 2733. Mr. Grogan.~\ What latitude are you refeirring to? — Perhaps four degrees or five degrees north of the boiindary line, begiiming at 87 degrees west longitude, about two or three degrees ttorth of the line, and widening up to five degrees in advancing as far as 187 degrees west longitude. 2723. Mr. Charkf Fituwilliam.] Will you tell us what the nature of the sdl is about Red River ; jou say there is a large extent of country there widch could be cultivated with advantage; what sort of cbutttry is it?— -The soil is alluvial ; they cultivate the soil without manuring it ; they sow it for 13 tod 14 years together, and produce fof four quarts, 12 bushels of wheat, 65 or 70 lbs. , to the bushel, which I ain told by the farmers of Ebglan^ really exceeds iA^e '\ returns in many parts of Great Britsdn. ^ ' 2724. You say that there is a large extent of country about Red River which is capable of cultivation ; is there water in that country ?— Yes. 2725. There are streams running to the Bed River ?-^Y^; fiine streaihs. 272fi. Are those streams timbered streams, or is there no wood ?— There is a fair quantity of wood along ;:he rivers. 2727. What timber is it ?~Ther* are oak, elm, birch, pine, and white-wood. 2728. What is white wood ? — It is sometUng like poplar. 2729. What are the other natural vegetable productions of the country; what is the nature of the grass ?—TihMithy grass grows, I think, tod other kinds. ' . ' 2730. Is it a Country which will naturally support cattie? — ^Yes. 275irHay oatj be Cut ?*- Yes. 2732. Cattle can live there in the winter?-;- Yes. They have only to Cut their hay ;. they have not to make it by turning it over, and so on, but have simply to cut it down and let it remain one or two days, and then go and collect it in. 2733. Is it necessary to house cattle in the winter ?-^No, not the whole of the time. They house them at night, but not by day. 2734. We have heard something of the floods in that country, are they of frequent occurrence ?— A flood had occurred previously to my arrival; but^, i believe they rarely take place. I think there have been only two or three floods th6re sineei 1 have had any knowledge of the country. Since the forma- tion of Red River Settlement, there have been only one or two floods. - . : ' ' 2735. Of course the floods occur in the spring time ?— Yes. *' > ' 2736. Has there been any extraordinary fall of snow in the winter when there has been a flood ? — I believe that has not been generally noticed ; they cannot attribute the cause soldy to the lai^r quantity of snow ; sometimes \t has been stated to be the 6ase. •''■'': ' 2737. Mr. Gordon.] Do not large numbers of the settlers and half-breeds ^ to St. Paul's for their supplies, instead of getting goods out, vid Hudson's Bay, by the Company's ships ?— Yes. 2738. What is the cause of that ?— The dissatisfection which they feel at present with the Hudson's Bay Company's system. 2739. B*** why should that dissatisfaction make them seek their supplies at '^' St. Haul's ?— Because they cannot get supplies at a reasonable rate by the '**' Hudson's Bay route. 2740. Why ?— They have again and again asked the Hudson's Bay Com- pany, as far as I have been given to understand by the settlers themselves, to ' improve the inland communication up to York Factory by Lake Winnipeg The interruptions only cover a distance of about 400 miles ; the other 400 miles might be navigated by a little steamboat, over Lake Winnipeg, which is 0.25. S3. a lake II, |I?: -f.*:' ^ I' .■I"'. . iW 44fl AHNUTBS (»P EVIDENCE TAKBK MFORB Ttife G.O.CtrMt. a lake 300 b^m in len^h. iTheyliare igiln and again tdd methatfttey — — — — hare aaked the Hudson's Bay Company to improTe the inland communication. sKanb iBt7. They-havit eryr w e d a willingneM to pay a iMnall tax to the Hudson^s Bay Company for so doing,' but the Hudson's Bay Company have not done so. One attempt I believc^ent in the communication between York Fnctary sua Red River :' have they ever done so with regard to Lake Superior ; do they think it possible to imptiove that route t — There is no interruption aU the way from Red River to the north-westem boundary on Lake Winnipeg ; it is all deir 6)>ea wateh; so that the Hudson's Bay Company might at tmis very hour have steamboats, or better means of conv^ng supplies iq> from that lake into the Red River, and the goods might be taken from Vork Factory to the entnnce of the lake. 9743« Have you travelled tlu^'countryi— No, I have not travelled on thelake. 3744. Sufely there is evidence that that route is very much interrupted by rapids and other obstructions T — Not the whole route, only a part of it. 3745. What makes you give Bfi decided an opinion as that? — From constant ' ,>^ !. intercourse with the people iqion this very subject, because it has become a ma;tter of public debi^te in tiie covuatry. 3746. What route.m^oQld that follow ; not that. I suppose, from I^ake Wionipi^ down the rivers ; I am speaking of the route by Lake Superior : I understood yon to say that thore was no difficulty in that route, which rather surprised mer— I meant the oth^r ;oute; but as to the difficulties between Red River and lake SupeHor» I aia told that they are by no means insurmountable. I have recently had a letttr from a gentleman on the banks of Red River; who has conversed with a retired chief &otor of the Hudson's Bay Company upon the subject. 3747. Do you c^tain with ease supplies for the use of your station from the Inrts of the Company?— ^ven if -the Company were willing to furnish us with our siq>plies (and we are not sure of that) we could not get a sufficient quantity. For example, in the article of (ea. there is not always a sufficient stock kept in the countiy. I have a letter in my hands, in which the gentleman says, "You will imagine the panic we are all in at the probability of there not being a ship ; jbhe real or supposed slaraits we shall all be. in ; and the plans proposed for a partial supply of the wants and necessities of this singularly situated people, dependent on one ship. Oh the casualty, the risk, the uncertainty \—hn* so it is. Pray God for ns, that we may not this year feel the sad eiqieriencd of ?o f ^irious a state of tbjmgs cons^uent on such inadequate means of supply. But it looks gloomy at present ; evei^thing is out ; all the stores are bare, and were it nut for what the importers from the, States brought in, there would now be little or nothingfor the people's use." ' 3748< Mr. Edward Elliee.} What is the d»te of that letter ?<— September the 3749. Hr.iLom.'i Do ^ oljeet to 'gtVe thA:: ..-•?•, I- •* )i' SELBCr COMMriTRB ON THB HUDSON^ BAY COMPANY. 143 •?*:-s;. A Mank i9$1 i^li'if a' ■■•■ ;-*. ^•*:«^ .:■ ■'' ■ ■;■■-,■ -, tbings which are fixed; for example, for rait we hare to pay It. a qitart; B«v.<7.0.Clnii«. and for sugar, I a. a pound ; and for rice, 1 «. a pound ; that is fixed. ■ 3753. Then there is a fixed tariff for «0B9e,.iEUcle8, but not for others? — Ye«. . • ,V,iT h 2754. Mr. Edward Ellice,] But all tfaos« thbgv are abo brought in by the community from the Btates ? — Not English salt;, ti*at comes from England. > 275.<). Is there any obstruction to their being brought in?r--Iie, . < t 1. .< . 3760. As you.say ostensibly, have you any reMon' to suppose that it is turned to any other purpose, whatever the dutv may her — ^I will just 'State a. circum- stance, if you will allow me, which will illustrate the case. 37&J. Just answer my question first t you nay state the circumstance after- wards. Have you any reason to suppose that that. money is apUropvlated to any other purpose than that for which it is stated to be railed?—^! <^uittOt always say how money is appropriated^ - .«r ^ .'<• -^'h!'.- ■ • . 'i' '^\'* ^''"' 2762. Why do you say "ostensibly"? — For this reason, bceatise'frtMbafbtf Garry, the seat of government, in a southern direction dpwQ to the boundary line, there is no improvement of the roads whatever.*. m.-j^'Wc-i^^^P^ .t-;MV' 2763. Mr. Roebuck.] Do they improve the roadsT-^By ho tti^uiaT'lA Chl^ direction ; because the- settlers with. whom I travelled held a council, and they debated whether they, would pay the import duly or not, and they said, **The roads are not improved ; we are obliged toi»M^ .^lit '<^^- 27 71., Mr. Gordon.] Tarevertto the Bubject of the tariff^, whatinrteiB doyoa pay for cloth ; is that one of the articles upon which there is a fixed price ? — No, I think net ; there is no fixed price on cloth and blankets. ^'f^ 2772. Do you know what sort and number of articles have a fixed > price; you mentioned salt and sugar and some other article ; are there a great number of articles in common use that have a fixed tariff ? — There maybe; I have simply sent on some occasion for the tariff, or a stateflo^tas^tQ ,tb§ ppce oi certain articles, but I have not been able to get it. , .. wv-- .vhw, ». ■M\m>. * V « .hty ,, 2773. Mr. Edward Ellice.] You stated that 20 per cent, was cbai^;ed upoii i > 0.25. S4 goods '■.i'ftf ' '' ■'?'.■'• ."5^-^^ ^t '.^■>', .Hf'^ w * Ui 'i4»*iii *>«* :"Ti\ ^itii^ iiS ■xiuSfe >44 MINUTBS OF EVrOENCE TAKEN BEFORE TAB S Mwtb 1S57. fiMMfaiitMar CoumU. Appendix. if^,G,0.emrbttt. coodi coming into the colony; "do fon »tate that asa&ct within your own " '- knowledge?— ( aaid that It wai pnmosed that 10 or 20 per cent should be ohaiiged. Thi« was probably aMumed from the York fiustory import duty, fixed at 30 per cent, by the (^ooncil of Rupert's Land, of 10th June 1845. 2774. Ooyou kno*r whether 10 par cent, ia charged?— -The people resolved not to pay the cluty, whatever it was : I do not know whether it has been paid since. 377.'). Do you kiuiw whether 10 per cent, is charged upon goods comine in from States ? — I am not sure, because the people with whom I travelled held a council when they got to the boundary Une, a small river ; they said, "We are upon the boundanr, shall i^e pay upon nturning or nut ?" They said, '' We will not pay because dnere are no roads improved." 2770. Do you know that that which they d^t^ ahQut and refused to pay !wa8 10 per cent r— 'It w|M 10 or 20. J1777. Are you sure ?-^f have no doubt of it. ^ 2778. Mr. Roehtck^ Was there a demand of any payro«tit made by any ofii^on that occasion r when you were crossing the boundary and came to that resolhtlon, was that rqiolutiip put to the test by a demand on the purt of imy aaUiraity?— It was made public, and doubtless became known to the &ompuiy's omcCTs. 2770. Wits any dinnand made by the authoriti«s of the Hudson's Bay Com- pany for any duty ;7 from Red River the gentleman seemed to rejoice in the fact that they were soon to hare a letter-bag and a stamp, by which letters would be stamped, and would be sent backwards and forwards in a leather bag. 3793. You sav that the mail is sent up by the American Government to the American post, is there an American post at Pembina ? — Yes. 2793, Ib Pembina within the American frontier ? — Yes. 2794. Is it occupied now f — Yes. 379.'). By whom ? — By the Americans. 2796. By American settlers? — ^They have a fur trading post, a fort, and also a little settlement there ; there is also a garrison there. 3797. Mr. Edward ElUce.] That fort is not occupied in winter, is it? — It is occupied all the year round ; 1 camped there myself; I slept there two or three nights. 3798. Mr. CAjr/e« /V^nrtV/jam.] Is it a military post ?— There are a garrison i^ •• '^j^ and a fiir post, and a settlement of Indians and half breeds there. I believe V some of them have gone over the frontier frpm Red River. .?•'-:' * f 2799. Mr. Gordon.] How far is Pembina from Red River i — Seventy or eighty miles from the seat of Government. 2800. But from the boundary line ? — It is as close as possible to the boundary - fr^f' line. 2801. Do you know whether any facilities for settlement are afforded near the frontier by the United States at the present time ? — I believe they are giving every facility. When I came down I found gentlemen from America up as far as Otter>tail Lake making claims, and thence as far up as Pembina. 2802. Where is that ?— I suppose it is 150 miles at leaet to the north of St. Paul's ; it is a lake well marked upon the map, I think. "^^ ;. ii4;>:' 2i03. Mr. Charles FitzwilUam.] Is it another St. Peter's, or on the Mifisigsippi? — ^It empties its waters into the Red River, I believe. 2804. Mr. Lowe.] Is it one of the head waters of the Red River ?— Yes, on« of the sources. 2805. Mr. Oordon.} Have you, during your stay at the Red River, known nurties of settlers, with whom you were personally acquainted, leave the Red River for the United States or elsewhere, from diswtisfaction with the Govern- ment ? — I met with a gentleman at St. Paul, Mr. Doll, a stationer and bookseller at St. Paul, who has a flourishmg business, and he told me that, from the inconveniences which he had found at the Red River Settlement, and the discouragements thrown in his way, he had left ; but. hc( is n^w doing Wi^Uitt St. Paul ; other parties also have left. . Ii^v4,;«w:^^"^4v , ^* ^r 2806. To your own knowledge r — Yes. 2807. Mr. Edward Ellice.] What had Mr. Doll been at the Red River ?— I believe a portion of the time he had been in the Hudson's Bay Company's service. 2808. What was the discouragement which he met with r— The usual dis« couragements experienced by people in the colony. 2809. Mr. Gordon.] What are they ? — ^The difficulties they have of getting their goods ; the difficulty of getting representations from the colony, &c. &c. 2810. Mr. Edward Ellice.] What do you call "representations from the colony" ? — ^The people think that they ought to have a voice in representing their grievances ; that, in short, there should be a representative government in the colony. %f- .ft 'f-S^'^iv^ii''^''^''. '■')■ ■'■'■>Pii- •k- ■*. Hk'''''r'ii^^^^'T^'^^^t ■i-ur '.1.(1.; '' vS|^.^ itj •M T ts^: : .^iVi."'. r :'W.v-;iY; a^'ii.'i^. .;i;«.a; , 146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE LiMigf 9* t^ Martu, 1857- MEMBBRS PRESENT. Mr. BelL Mr. BiackburD. Mr. Edward Ellice. Mr. Ouurkf FilvwUliwD. Mr. OordoB. Mr. Oregson. Mr. Orogu. Mr. Percy Herbert. Mr. KiQRftird. Mr. Labouchere. Sir John Pakin{;ton. Lord John RuuelL Viscount Sandon. Lord Stanley. The Right H^n. HENRY LABOUCHERE, m the Chair. '#• The Rev. iShiffitk Owen Corbett, called in ; and fur&er Examined. Rev. 6. 0. CerkU. 9 March 1857. :.-■' .^'- 1' \ :*■' •if 4 2811. Mt. Oorim.] HAVE you ever travelled in company with tiie Ameri- can fur traders ?— Yes. .■ ,,4.Ci:^» 2812. For any considerable distance ? — ^For upwards of 1,000 miles. . •Mr^'l'!^'^'' ;?ra8i3. Near the frohtie^f— Yes. ' ','— ^-^X iW'^^-^-- ■^'' 3814, Had you any opportunities of obsepidng^ thefa- manner of tradin§f iii ' - , fiiirs ?— I had bjpportunities obtdned from tetiting with them night after night, ; and camping near their forts on the western route from Minesota up to Red -"^ River, and on the eastern route from Red River down to Crow Wing. , #«^ 2815. Mr. Edward Elliee.'] That is in the American territory ?— Yes. f;^ V 2816. Mr. Gordon.} Did you ever isee them engaged in trading for the furs i ; — Not a great deal. /- I ''*'28i7. Did you ever see them make use of spirits as a means of barter fM" ■• ;_ tan ?^— -No ; I never saw any spirits among any of them. 2818. Have you reason then to believe tliat spirits are not used by them as a taevoa of barter? — 1 never saw a drop of spirits in any of their camps or tents, ■■ but I have heard the Honourable N. W, Kitson, the representative of Minesota, ; = ' remonstrate against the use of spirits as used on the northern side of the ", boundary Une. 2819. Mt. Edward ElUce.'] Whom did he remonstrate with r — He has re- monstrated in the presence of the camp. Jl -^ 2820. But with whom?— I cannot say that he lias remonstrated with any individual in particular ; but he has expressed himself in very indignant terms ' ib my presence. 2821. Mr. Gordon.] Whom did he remonstrate against ? — Against the Hud? ' Son's Bay Company's fur traders. 2822. Mr. Edward Etlico.'] How did the remonstrance arise ?•— He spoke of fte increasin^y lai^ quantity, as he represented it, of rum which ww employed amount the Indians, and he spoke of the demoralising effects, ttr 1^> ^'^ 2823. Wherel— On the frontier. * *'iB24. Mr. Gordon.] Has anything ever come under your own personal inspection of the demoralising effects of ardent spirits on the Indians ? — Yes. 2825. Mr. Edward EUice.] Who is that Mr. Kitson that you spoke of ?— He " is, I believe, the representative for the Minesota territory. 2826. Is he not a trader on the frontier in opposition to the Hudson's Bay Company ? — I cannot say that he is engaged in opposition to the Hudson!|i Bay Company. 2827. Do you know that he is not ? — I do not think that he is a fiir trader tfX opposition to the Company. '' 2828. Do you not know that Mr. Kitson is a trader in competition with the Company ? — He is a trader, I believe, in the Minesota territory, in connexion with the fur-trading Company in that country. / 3829. Is Mr. Kitson at Red River as well as in the American territory F — He ^oes not reside at Red River, I believe. ' , . y "!--(d,t.:::^^-< -::-'. J :A, 2830. Do i^"-^. •■ ■•;■■,■"' SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 147 'm hl "-.■'.V-;.. .^\^ in 'E -;• >t. ■ .-' ed ■^:,'V.'. ^«v: fV 't V ' W^P^ 3830. Do vou know whether he frequents Red River ?— He trisits Red tlivtt kt^. 0. 0. CvrbtU. backwards and forwards, I beliere, as often as he accompanies the nudl op from Minesota towards Red River. (>' March 1857. 2831. Have you not reason to believe that Mr. Kitson is a trader in com- petition with the Hudson's Bay Companv, not only in the American tenitory but in the territory as far north as Red River ?-^Not on the Britbh side. I do not think it at all. 2833. Do you know what his occupation at Red River i« t»beii hti ii there? — ^The most, I believe, that I have heard r«tipectin$ fafai visits at Red River is — — 2833. Just aiiawer the question ; do you know what his busineM k when he goes so frequently to Red River ; why does he go there ?*~I believe thai be has relatives at Red River, and that he visits those relatives ; and he^ takes an interest in forwarding goods, and letters, and muls up to Red River, and visits Red River ; and the people of Red River take an interest in all his visits as a consequence. 3834. Do not you know that he trades there ?— He may privately enter iuto t<' arrangements for that, but I have no fact before me to prove it. ' 2835. Mr. Gordon,] Do you believe that he trades in furs there ?•»! do nol believe that he trades in furs on the British territory. , ' 2836. Have you seen any instances of the use or abuse of spirituous UquoM ^^^^ .4^4^$^ in dealings for furs by the agents of the Company ?<^I Intve seen Inmans, \.„...i^ : intoxicat«[ withiu the gates of the Upper Fort Gtfry. * >^li, i|A«^^ j^ • 2837. What reason have you to suppose that that Hqaor came from tki '',/.;-:;^y, ■::;/{ -^^^ Company ?— It must have come from the fort; there la no other soaree Ibr it ; ■ K'^ v within the immediate vicinity of the fort; and I have seen Indians in thdr encampments, in Hhe neighbourhood of the fort, in a state of intoidcatiOB, .^/y.' ■:.-y'^fy; and so wild that 1 myself have ridden out of my \raj to be secure in : r' > travelling. .. 2838. Mr. Edward JSUiee.] Where ?^ln the neighbourhood of Foit (kiOf, {'.\" 1839. Wereyou encamped there?— No ; I have passed by them. 3840. Mr. Gordon.'] Could not they have procured those spirits from the settlers ?— They may nave obtained a little firom some of them ; and very lik^ fiome of the settlers use rum as well as the Company. 3841. Mr. Edward EUiee.] There are grog-shops there, are there itoC?^Ifot that I am aware of. 2842. Not in Red River?— Not in Red River. >,>':. .v.- v, .-.. ■■■.- . . ^^ 3843. Do you know Mr. Philip Kennedy f — Yes. ' 2844. Does not he keep a grog-shop ? — He never &d when I wiul at tMa Rapids, and I resided close to his residence ; there was no gn^-shop there thM^ nor the slightest appearance of grog. I have seen Indians intoneated in my po own district ; there was a case that happened in my own district ^.f :. <<|;u: % , 2845. Mr. C'ortfon.} Is it within your personal knowledge? — ^Y«l. IhAclleft P' my own station, and after returning to it, I found that a woman and children Ii had left their cottage, and taken rerage underneath our own roof, t inquired the reason of it, and they told me that it was because they had beea «»te(ud«di from their own dwelling. I then went to the husband, and inquired the cause of it, and he said the cause was this, that the Indians and half-breeds, ea returning from the fort of the Company, at Fort Garry, after faavitig taken down their furs, sought admission into his warm room to warm themselves ; and after staying to warm themsdves a little they then began to hand round the rum. ,^, 2846. Mr. Edward Ettice.'] Who did?— The Indians and hal^breed^ inside ^^- ' this cottage; and after drinking the rum for some time thev came to high words, and from high words they came to blows, and a regular nght took place ; and so dreadful was this fight that the man said he did not know what to do 'i to get them out of the house : the thought struck him that he would pidl dowa the stove piping and stove ; and he set to work, and pulled down the stove piping and stove ; and in consequence the room was so completely filled with ashes and smoke that all the Indians and the halC-brcteds, his wife, and faia^f, ran out into the air. ''..ij./-:?: .;;';,^/;', ;'i. ..v,-'^-. , ri;./* ' 2847. Mr. GordonI] What reason have you to suppose thJntnbse spirits WMa procured from the Company's agents ? — ^The statement of the man was, that they had taken down their furs and had returned with rtmi, as well as other 0.25. T 3 things ; Ife- 148 ; MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOHB THE ■^t- .',:'-H- '-'MKJ^y 'r-:'. - -.i;-.';; .'''.''■'.„.,■ ::•■ ■■•■ .-.v:,-;: ■'U; , .* :5.. things ; as to the man, he in consequence of that dispute and fight m at variance with an individual a little distance from where he resides in &e neigh' bourhood. 3848. Have you a school in your district? — Yes. ,4 3849. ^ i^ numerously attended ? — It would be numerously attended if we- had the means to carry it on, but we have not had the means to cany it forward. 3850. FVom what causes ? — Partly from the inability of the society to i^rd means, and partly owing to the effects of the war upon the societies. 3851. Is it attended by Indians and half-breeds, or by whites ? — ^My station inoliules the haff-breeds, the settlers, and the Indians ; we have alai^ number of FVrench half-breeds in the neighbourhood. 3853. Do you find the half-breeds anxious for education at your station? — Very amdous. 3853. Mr. Blackburn.'] 1 think you mentioned the war as affecting the station ; will you be good enough to say whi^ you meant by the effect of the war upon the station, on account of which you stated that you could not get more children to the school ? — I referred to the effects of the late war in the Crimea upon societies in depressing their funds. 3854. Mr. Charles FitzmUiam.^ You have travelled up the Red River, have, you not?— Yes. 3855. Are there many small streams running into it on either side r— There., are a grcMit many on the western route ; on the western side of the Red River, and numerous streams on the eastern side. 3856. Yon have travelled on both sides r — ^Ym. J M: 3857. How many such streams are there from the mouth of the river at Lake Winnipcig to the boundary line ? — I should think there are 20 or 30. ; 3858. That is in a distance of 60 miles, is it not ? — No, there would be more than 60 miles to Winnipeg from the boundary line ; I believe that the boundary line is one degree south of Fort Garry, and Fort Garry is on the Red River, about 30 miles from the mouth of Lake Winnipeg. 3859. ^liat is t^e nature of those streams r — ^They are not very large ; some of the beds are very rocky, and others have beds of clay and gravel. 3860. Are they timbered streams, or is there no timber on the banks ?— I saw timber on most of them ; there is timber, particularly on the eastern side of the Red River; not so much on the western side. 3861. Is it heavy timber ? — Some of it. 3862. So that in the country from Lake Winnipeg to the boundary line there is plenty of wood for the use of settlers ? — ^There is plenty of viood, especially on the eastern side. 3863. But not so much on the western side r — Not so much on the western side, although there is a great deal on the western side. 3864. Have you travelled up the Ap'^iniboine ? — I have travelled about 80 miles up the Assiniboine. 3865. What is the furthest point to the west where you have been ? — The ndghbouriiood of Portage-la-Prairie. 3866. Mr. Grogan.'] Is that midway between Fort Garry and Brandon House ?— Yes ; it is not far from Fort Pelly, I think ; I think Fort Pelly is the nearest fort one meets in advancing westwwls ; I am not sure. •2867. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.'] Is that a timbered country r — It is very well timbered, I believe ; rJl the way up to Portage-la- I*rairie there is a good deal of timber. There is a good deal of timber on the other rivers. 2868. Mr. Edward Ellice. ] Were you ever at Fort Pelly ? — I have been as near it as Portage-la-Prairie. 2869. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.'] You think that all this is a country with suflicient wood for the use of settlers ?— I think so, and the land is also good ; hence luxuriant vegetation, which, when dry, forms fuel for the great burning prairies. I have a picture here of burning prairies on the Assiniboine River. 2870. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] Do not you know that Fort Pelly is 250 miles, and Portage-la-Prairie only 60 miles from Red River ? —It may be as far as that, but 1 believe that Fort Pelly is the nearest fort to that neighbourhood in the western direction. ;' 2871. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam.] Are there frequent fires on those prairies ? -—Yes ; for three weeks together. . ,. - , ,. ..--' f- ■-•'-.- ^::-H'!--"^ ' :;^.: ^872. Do r^^S W%:^. •;'.§■ r f-.i, $.■ ^:J^K ,* «.»* :^sm' M-^:v:" ( ..■■■*t 9^' rJ:. 0.25. tm ''■■'&'' *c ■' >' -M*->-' \ - v'." ■ ' ' y{' 1 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 149 gMarphiS^Tie •.'■v^^ m ''^^ US72. Do you think that that is the reason why there is so little wood in the R«v. 0.0. Ctrieu. country ?— One reason. - — 2873. If the fires were stopped would it spring up ? — Yes. I travelled through a forest which took us six days to travel through, and a great portion of tlrat forest was on fire ; many of the young trees were damaged and dying, and many of the other fine trees in the forest were on fire ; I travelled over 600 miles of i burnt prairie. i 2874. Where was that ?-~From the British side down into Minesota. 2875. Mr. Orogan.] You resided for three years in and about the Red River ; 8ettlem«it? — ^Yes. 387.5*. What facility had you ^or tnuMmitling your letters Arom that settle> t , ment?— At the early stages, 1 1 lleve, of my residing in the neighbourhood of ^ Red River, I had to avail myself of the half-yearly commiii^oations thipugh the Hudson's Bay Company's territories. 7 2876. How did they go ? — ^They went I believe firop ftxrt to fort through tile Hudson's Bay Company's territory; once a year, I believe, the custom was t9 ■ send letters from Red River to York Factory and thence to England by the ship ; the other route was vid Lake Superior, twice a year. Since the Americans. :; have been approaching towards the borders, and the Government of Americaj has been affording facilities for the tranamission of settlers and letters and those kind of things, we have sent our letters through America down by Crow Wing./ to St. Paul and thence to England. 2877. You have sent your letters as far as Pnnbina, where you jtHii |iM»;4 American post ? — Yes. . ji^^j 2678. In regard to the Lake Superior district, how often were the letters' or despatches sent on that route r — I believe half-yearly was the rule. 2879. Are you speaking of a matter within your own knowledge?-— I believe . it existed when I arrived ; I am not sure that it does not exist at the present time; the annual comminication of course exists at the present time vid^e ship ' _ ■ *., ;,.-,;r|- 2880. An observation has been made in this Committee that letters written:^ at the Red Ri < Settlement were examined or inspected by the authorities 'l there. Does t.?'! 'toine within your knowledge ? — It has not come within my knowledge, b- . ^ heard settlers again and again say that they have been afraid to send t . .' ''^ .ten ; that they have therefore been the more anxious to see the other toute opened up so that they might send their letters witiiout, the possibility of inspection. 2881. Do you mean to say that they were afraid of their letters being in- spected by the authorities before they were dispatched ? — ^They were afraid of it. :, 288a. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] Will you tell us the names of any settlers who have expressed to you those fears? — I prefer ,no|.,doing,.;9Q,.; they are in the j territory. ;■*•: !.W;;.v;.;:«;' ,• 2oSa. Chairman.'] Are you able to adduce any evidence to substantiate the .^ grave chai^ which you have made in your previous answer? — ^The charge has not been brought forward by me; but rests entirely on the evidence to whicK x the Honourable Member's question refers (a). I could mention the names of the parties, but I should prefer not doing so, because they would say at once that ^ they should have no market for their goods in the country. They would not^ be tolerated in freedom in the country if their names were known. There was one settler in particular who wished me to bring a letter to England to ) represent his case ; but he said, " If I allow you to take that letter I shall not '*■ be able to sell my bushels of wheat, and I shall not be able to get clothing for my poor chil(hren." So that that is the reason. I could not mention the, names. 2884. Mr. Edward Etlice.) Have you that letter in your possession ?— No. .' 2885. If you are not prepared to substantiate that allegation will you withdraw / it ? — I simply express my impression from what has been said iti the country ; that is all that 1 can say upon the subject. I repeat, the charge has not been adduced by me. 2886. Had you ever any fear yourself of your letters being opened?— I, J^allyi. >, ■.'. m.W ■ V- ^ W:r. ^V:- : ' I (a) See Questiun 1895 in Sir George Simpson's Evidenco. Letter of Mr. R> Lane. m ■'^^- »5o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 'Bev. G. 0. Corbett. really have had such fear that I obtamed a special stamp for my own letters. 9 Much 1857. 2887. What do you call '/ a Special stamp"?— One with my own initials, &o. 3888. Chairman.] Has any Case ever come to your knowledge in which it was clearly proved that a letter had been thus opened r — No. Sir John Richardson, c. B., called in ; and Examined. Sir /. JUcAarAoii, 2889. Chairman.^ WHAT opportunities have you had of becoming aiB- "•*• quainted with that portion of British North America which is under the ad- ministration of the Hudson's Bay Company? — I have made three several journeys through it, and have resided altogether in the country about seven years during those journeys. ^890. Have you only known it in your capacity as a traveller r— -In no other capacity. 3891. Have you never been connected with the Hudson's Bay Company In any manner ?— In 00 manner as a servant, or paid in any way by the Hudson's Bay Company ; I had some share hi the Hudson's Bay stock at one time» which is now transferred. 2893. You are not a proprietor at this moment? — I am not aproprietor^ although 1 have a life interest in a few shares. i^ ^ 2893. Under what drr^msttinceswere the journeys that you allude to und^- taken ?— I went out first in 18 Id with Sir John Franklin, and we travelled from York Factory to Lake Winnipeg, and from thence to Great Slave Lake, and down the Copper Mine River to the Arctic Sea, and then back again by nearly the same route ; that was the first journey, which ocouined tlvee and a half years. 3894. What was the second joumev .'—The second joumnr was in 1825 ; I went out by the way of New York, and travelled by Montreal, Lake Huron, Lake Superior, Fort William, Winnipeg, Churchill River, Athabasca, Great Slave Lake, and on to Great Bear Lake, upon the Mackenzie. Then I descended the Mackenzie River and travelled to the eastward along the coast to the Copper Mine River, which I ascended, and came back to Gi^at Bear Lake. I returned homewards by the same route, except that I diverged at Isle h la Crosse over the prairies to Carlton House, and descended the Saskatoh«wait„ from thence to Cumberland House. "- * 3895. Mr. Edward Ellice.] How long did that occupy ?'— I was two and a half years in the country upon that occasion. 2896. Chairman.] Will you describe your third journey f — ^The third journqK-; ins in 1848 and 1849; I went out to search the coast for Sir John Franklin ; I made very nearly the same journey that I did upon the second oocaaion, only the route through the United States was different. tf 3897. Were you ever on the west side of the Rocky Mountains ^ — I have never been on the west side of the Rocky Mountains. 2898. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee any general opinion which you have formed of the capabilities of any considerable portion' of the country which you have traversed, for the purposes of settlement and colonisation ?— With regard to the production of cereals, wheat may be growq;,: up to the 58th parallel of latitude, in favourable places, but only in parts. 3899. Mr. Edward Ellice.'] IVobably you will tell us the general aspect of the ' territory, taking it as a whole, it has been stated here that it is divided into three distinct divisions ? — In giving a general idea of so extensive a country, I should take the Rocky Mountain chain as a nucleus of the description. Its peaks rise from 12,000 to 15,000 feet above the level of the sea; on the eastward it has an inclined base of about 160 miles wide, composed of sandstone, and lying 8,000 feet above the sea ; then there is a sloping prairie land from 600 fo' 800 miles wide, called rolling prairie, on which there are some bluffs f^; "li S-' T^u* no peaks and no hills of any note; that is mostly grass land; then .| ,: there is a tract of rocky country, extremely uneven, but not rising very h^h, r^> V about 200 miles wide, bouncUng a chain of lakes which separates it genendly from the prairie landi, although there is a little woody country intervening between these lakes and the prairie ; then there is a very uneven country of equal ■i: .'/; width descending to Hudson's Bay, partly limestone ; all that 200 miles wide 'Xk tract -ftiV-"J>y .'4. 'V--.:r .... , ,^J. M- ..*»' SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 151 9 ftfarch 1857. ,jmi' =n;: ^^M :'S^':;y t ■ ' ■--.-. . M fry^f. tract is composed of granite, and is totally unfit for cultivation, except a very Sir j. Rkhardion, few spots where there is some little alluvial soil collected. ^- '■ 2000. Mr. Orogan.] Is that the district of the Great Lakes ? — ^The district of the Great Lakes runs about south-west from the mouth of the St. Law- rence, and does not interfere with it; the district of which I have been speaking is separated from that of the Great Lakes by an elevated rocky ridge, not nearly so high as the Rocky Mountains, but by a ridge in which the pass over which the Hudson's Bay Company travel to the north, and which, I suppose to be well chosen* is 820 feet above the level of Lake Superior, which itself is about 640 feet above the sea; the pass is probably about 1,460 feet alto- { ether above the level of the sea. The summit of the watershed at Thousand slands Lake is 40 or 50 miles from Lake Superior in a direct line, and the much longer and circuitous canoe route rises at least 800 feet within the 50 miles. 2901. Mr. Edward Elliee.] Is that territoiy divided : we have had it in evi- dence that it is divided into Uie barren grounds, the tiiickwood, and the prairie cuuntr}' ? — The prairie country is grassy, and extends, as I have said, from the inclined base of the Rocky Mountains for 600 or 800 npiles to the eastward; next comes the wooded limestone country in the middle part of the Saskatchecvan, a veiy flat cou ntry, in which the stone is very near the surface, and there is very little soil. In fact, in some parts there is almost no soil ; in others there is a considerable quantity of marshy alluvial soil collected upon the banks of the river, flooded almost every spring; indeed I have seen the whole country almost under water for many miles on eatih side of the Saskatchewan. Then going on northwards, and crossing a very slight elevation of land at the Frog Portage, you enter upon the valley of the Mississmpi or Churchill River, which crosses the country from west to east, and flows into Hudson's Bay, a narro^ valley ; but after crossing the Methy Portage, in about latitude 56 degrees, there is a descent for about 1,200 miles to the Northern Ocean, down which the Mackenzie flows on nearly a north-west course. From latitude 61 degrees, on Hudson's Bay, a httle to the north of ChurcbiQ Fort, to the north end of Great Bear Lake, in latitude 67 degrees, there is a line beyond which the woods do not extend ; the north-eastern comer of the continent contains no wood whatever, and is totally barren ; it will not produce grain under any circum- stances, nor any kind of vegetable food for man, except lichens. 2902. In those three districts,, assuming them to be the barren ground, the thickwood, and the prairie country, will you give us your opinion of the relative capability for the settlement or abode of Europeans r — If, under the name of " settlement," is meant the means of subsistence simply, I think that a consi- derable population might subsist as high as Peace River upon the alluvial points and the skirts of the prairie land, but if it is to be a productive or pro- gressive colony, I think that there are no means, and that there are not likely to be any means of producing a flou'-'shing colony without some market or some conveyance for the grain ; they would only raise grain enough to support hem- selves, but could not export grain without better roads than exist at present ; a railroad from Canada, if such a thing could be constructed, might offer an outlet, but until the settlement of Canada has advanced close to the Ked River, I do not think that any wise settler would go beyond that place, there being so much' better land much nearer the market to be had at a very moderate rate. 2903. We hear that the limestone prevails in a considerable part of that prairie country and also to the northward of Lake Superior ; limestone is gene rally a fertiUzing agent ; in that country do you think it can be made so ? — The limestone which prevaib all along the west bank of Lake Winnipeg, and from thence up to Cumberland House and on to the Riviere Maligne at Beaver Lake, is not a fertile limestone ; it contains a large quantity of magnesia, which is generally thought to be very injurious to agriculture ; the greater portion of it is magnesian, and very near the surface, a great part of it being quite naked, with no soil at all ; and cultivation at Cumberland House, which is a post which has been established for a very long period, hus extended in a very small degree ; there are only a few fields round that post which have been found productive. 2904. Have you ever travelled by land on the northern shore of Lake Superior betv,een Saut St. Marie and Fort William ? — I have been four times along that coi^ist in passing to and from Canada. ::S^k^mk--i--Ml>iM^^W./'^>u-^^^^ -■ .'-.^yuj.^fe' 2905. What ?;*f«t' •"9\ ^''<;. ^*.;>j' .:, I m m m 153 SIINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir J. XichardtQM, c.a. 9 March 1J57. ,2905. What is the character ot. the country there?<— Itis very hilly, very rocky ; it is mostly primitive rock ; that is to say granite and porphyry with some con^omen^es, gneiss, and talcose slates ; it is a veiy hilly country, with 4^.3p valleys j^nd very precipitous cliffs. . _39od, Is there anything m that country which you think tempting or henefi- di^ to a settler ? — ^fhere are a few alluvial points at the mouuiB of the rivers ^hich flow into Lake Superior which would be productive, but the greater part o|r.t)i'e country which one sees in passing along Lake Superior is entirely desti* tute of suiL The fires have spread, and destroyed the trees, and burnt up the soil, 80 that the naked rock is the most prwailing thing over a gre^ pcNrdon of that district There are some parts which are still covered thickly with woofl, biit I think the general character of a very large portion of the north shore of Lake Superior is a naked rock, with but little soil, and very rugged. 3907. Proceeding westward from Fort William, what is the chiwacter of the CQUntiy between the west end of Lake Superior and Lake Winnipeg ?— Toe canoe route, which is all that I know, ascends tbe Dog River, about 50 miles, to Dog Lake ; that is a rapid river, with rich woods on oach side, and there is some capability of producing grain on the banks of the river; but at Dog Lake the land is elevated ; it is 1,300 feet above the sea, and the seturon is very late ; the ice doe^ not break up till the end of May generally. From that the canoe route leadA ovc^ a To6ky country, intersects by very numerous lakeij aa/i. grassy swamps. 2908. Is there an3rthing in that country which has particular capabilities for a settler ?— 1 saw no spots which would tempt a settler there. 2909. Were you at Rainy Lake ? — 1 passed through Rainy Lake. 2910. What is the character of Rainy Lake ? — The banks of Rainy Lake are of a better character; there being more alluvial soil, and many points on which grain might be produced. I cannot speak to any great extent of country away nrom tbe canoe route ; I only saw it on ea6h side for a few miles. I think that many of the pmnts might produce grain. 291 1. You say that you were various times in the Saskatchewan; without noing to particular points, taking the general character of the banks of the River Saskatchewan, what are its capabiUties as regards settlement ? — Of all the lower part below Cumberland House, I think there are only two or three points which would maintain a family of farmers ; there is no place which I saw thnt would maintain a colony of any size. I thick three or four farmers m%ht oonipy the whole of the points that are productive. 1 believe that Mr. Leith, who left a sum of money to found a chureh for the benefit of the natives of that 4istrict, and who wished to collect them into a village, found only one sport: which was available for that purpose. 2912. That was near Fort Cumberland, was it not ?— It was at the Pas, some distimce below Fort Cumberland ; but the whole of that country about the Pita is intersected by lakes, and in the spring and a great part of the summer it is under water ; it is very level. Although the limesitone comes near the surface, the country is easily flooded. You may travel almost in any direction, as far as my view extended, with canoes ; the spring floods leaving only a few elevate^ alluvii4 points upon wUch the Indians have built their huts. /„ '• 2913. Passing from the banks of the River Saskatchewan, have you been^p into the prairie country for any distance?— Not higher than Carlton House ; just upon the verge of the Great Prairie district, and I have travelled from thence to Lac la Crosse across that part of the prairie. The alluvial points of the Saskatchewan there might be productive ; they are wooded ; and if it were worth while clearing- away the wood they would produce grain, but the prairie itself, although fit, probably, for sheep pasture, is not of a soil that I think would be productive for cereal cultivation. 2914. Is that from the nature of the soil or from the shallowness of it r^- It is a sufficiently deep soil ; it is a sandy soil ; it produces grass, but I do not think it is rich enough to produce grain ; 1 have not seen it tried ; near the Hudson's Bay posts the traders cultivate the low alluvial points, which contain a rich soil, and they are productive enough. 2915. When you were there what did you hear of the existence of coal in ,ihe Saskatchewar. ?— There is tertiary coal, I am told, in the upper branches of the Saskatchewan, but I did not travel in that route. I had specimens of ^ , jthe coal, which were clearly of a tertiary nature. • ^v?'-'**-' j>-^ \'i'i&: ■>■'■■"■; 3916., Coal ;sV«, m. W' ■ ,/«■■ 'S-^ i!»*14,;' iiligi^-/ ,.}*-, SELECT COMMriTEE ON THE I^UDSON*S BAY COMPANY. 153 so 16. CSoal of a tertiarjr formation is not renr combustible, is it ?— -It it not used generally. There is coal of the same kmd upon ibo Mackenrae, which is exceedingly disagreeable to bom, owing to the quantity of sidplnflreoQa ▼apours whidi it emits ; and it will not do to work iron ; it makes it itt.■ ■' ■ ^ ■ "^ ,', *" -. ■ '- *■,■-."" ,, ■ ''■' ■ ' ,- , ,r',,^'- ,' ^ ■ '%•-" ' ''V 8if y. XwMMMM, C. ■. 9 March 11^7, \'V'->!P ■-■^r' '.-W- m ./ .1 • 1 i! U i| ': l ^X,S.L.^ jii^-Vj C'i^'t^-V-'f'^^i'ji} '. ,v-. 'IIl; I. I III itrntatmlmmm ■MpMU otn. rjM y V . MINUTES OF BVIDENCB TAKEN BEFORE THE mtJ.ltieUritm, fterlMu {Mfltd trawfioir abiniduitl; ; Uujr 'are found hi eveiy bog; the cli> "•*• ■M<*haBiiteterionted; I wHLjMfcbspositiTeMtotkeoau^^ ii «9«6i Whtt^wMhJtheJnwth tof f)M . winter Aft the afcnnt poitflv say Fort K aaWiB » Youk* Fort littrd.anA Fort 8iia|Mont^l.did sot winter at York 3997. Take any spots which you know ? — At Fort Franklin, on the Great Bean Lak«» tiiewiDter may he said to be ten months, counting; from the £>11 of anow to tfe^ disamieaiiaude of the iee and.the snow again. 409!^h- What.ia the dfiBleraMeibetween the meai| annnal heats of summer and widlBBiteribe same die pHM a efe lttiteide M Hurope^-and is, North Ameiioa4-~Aa a/geoff c ai a> M|war:tBothafc3quartiof>.latitude |r but that, answer will Botestend across the American continent ; upon the west sideof the Roeky Mountldin^ the (tMajpfera^iire lagiKatee ^han to the eastrnvd, so that the mean tpmperaturei att Fott ¥aucoit«»r exceeds the mean telI^lerature at New YoriL in th«iUnitadJtate8..7ii< .-;;■; ..,-.;■.,■ ■ .• i.^:.,-:,, -.■■ . >, „ . .2929; Thi^ K to say it is n^Ud^Ti^t-YeSv / ^ I. 2930^ CAoimaitJI Hewvis.the mean temperature of the western coast of NortJ|i,Amej::ica, as «^pimd withihe me^ temperature of Europe ia piniiilar latitttdeiir^TbemeaB ^wpc^ure on thc.r^t coant of America is. lower than that of Europe, but higher than that of the east coast of Ameripa., > -. , - : r a93t<^:I^ow much lo^ertha^that of £uropijr—F(urt^VaQoouye(> probably would be equal to two degrc;^of lati|<^de„t^t is to say, its j|ii^a9t temperature. ,, j . V ag$aH Mr. Edward .Eiikn.} J believe ii. is a faottbatii^ Europe the vine, fiw, iostascB, growsuiift the ipandlel of W. degrees ?-^I Believ^, ,the .northern limit for the profitable oultivaliQn 9f the vine iji JBurope is in ji;he valley of the Rhine. 2933. And In America il} is at 43 degrees r^-^l^ America there is 09, vjne! grosdng naturally beyood 43 d^rees. ,!,, , f!iS9|35t. Therefore in breaking wood for fuel, or anything else, you hare to use piirtict^r instruments for tbe purpose r — ^The hatchets require to be peculiarly tempered; ihe European hatchet breaks immediately when it is attempted to be: used for that purpose. -f . fri i,,; .2936. You baring. been in thait country at different periods, occup}ring a long series of years, I suppose you have had some opportunity of judging of the influence of the Hudson's Bay Company over the population of thut tenitory; will you tdl us what your opinion of it is?-^The best way, I think, of answering that < question would be to describe what I saw when 1 first went out. In 1 8 Id, when I accompanied Sir John Franklin out upon his first expeditioi^ the two companies, which were then opposed to each other, the Hudson's Bay Company and the North- West Company, were at war. Laoding at York Factory we found sevnal of the members of the No«th« West Company prisoners in the fort; they had been captured shortly before we arrived thwe. One of them, a MnFrolHaher, escaped with some men and perished ; he died for want of food in attempting to make> h\s escape. There had.been a fight previously at Bed River, in which 21 people and the governor were killed ; and I think 14 or 15 were starved to death upon the Peace Kiver in cons^uence of the contest. That was the state of the country when we went io^. We. found both parties supplying the Indians liberty with spirits. The Indians were spending' days in drunkenness at the different posts, and a contest altogether shocking to bum^ty was carried on. At that time it scarcely appeared that the incUans had any capalnlity of being civilised at- all. When we went out upon the second occasion, the Hudson's Bay Company haariug the sole trade' of the country, and the sole management of the Ii^ians, there was an improvement; spirits were no longer carried to the north, or they were carried in smafl quantities then. I tbink that «t that time the traders themselves were supplied with a little spirits for their own use ; but there was a manifest improvement, although none of the natives of pure blood ihad:beoame Christians. 'The missionaries had beav out for two or three years, .but had made no progress beyond oonv^ting one or two of the balf-caste Indians, I believe. Upon the last occasion in 1848 a generation of the Creea had. passed ( . ' away, Ai: W^ «■'- SELECT CaMMriTEB OK THE HinDeON*S BAY OOMf ANY. HT g Umtth 1(57. •war,' Si ytan hxfhg elR|iMd; •iid'tte turn g w mnti oA wwre taMMttjraMb iv strJ. IMmriicm, reaa and «*itte (all ' ttaoae that I tsme in cmmMStwitli)} nattf of fham ««• "•*• labonurtdg ilw wag«»iMr ^o Mudson'ar Bay Oofmpanjr, and altogmutf* tte txm/aj' was pdweaUe frdm one end to tkiia otW. 1 mw no liof uid ndttafaigM^ pleasant throughout the whole journey. The Indiana, in qMaklng of the ikm'i pany, dci^'Boe tpuM of thhm in tlto abiT -^^ tliey talk at the diffitek^ gc«|tle- menat 'die paeti^ and <^ indtvldufll 'cuamoter of the gentleman hanii gMi deal to do wMt their opfaiions t if ^« hr MMMl and kind to tium thN^ gjieak highly of Mm. Ak-isr^ I ^ith their etmdilM; 'Ifaeard'nogreal^ontpndBta, caiMpt the oomplalat i^'Meh indtaai alway» make, that th«f ara ^pioor, fiMr'^tiie^ypMe of ttobi^ag fwesentafkiii a laiger itattber of th^ yoinig iarun, if«re then employed hi the OumiMny^s hoata, anid workinf for rery ^N>d' wages. We had to ptj thocto -^bomiwa employed for the service of the ^cpeiMtion wages which wood be thought v^ good hi this country, at the rate of 80 /. a year besides feeding tliem. :: 1 r 3937. Chairman.'] From what part of the cou'ntry did those bidians confe? — I speak of the Crees and the Northern Indians. ' 3938^ I refer to the pioftyof'ittdtans that you employed in your canoes on your journey ? — ^llie crews of the canoes were partly Iroquois and partly Crees or Ghippeways^i wealso employed the Northern Incnans simost throughout the whole length of their country. ' ' ' <'" 3939. Did you pay them aU ta tton^ wages ?-^We paid the Northern Indkins by oroen upon the Compah)^; money did not jteflS. 3940. Were they ultimately paid in money, do you suppose N— I dd not know for certain ; I believe they pay in goods in the north ; I do not know that the Indkms know the "value of mon^ properly theftf; th«y i^ckon Inr b«avefs> a beaveir has a oertahi mOney value t and they are pMd by so matay MaVen. 3941. Do not thie Indians nearer to the settled disttiiMtf know the value of moneys— I tMnk th«y know the value of money "vtafywfeU >at Red fiiver. Tho^'firOm Red ^iver that we saw were paid in monfeyi and the Iroquois and Chippeways that came from the south were paid in monev. ' ' •' 3942. Mr. Edward ElHce.] While you were tht*e diii you hi^ar any com- pbdi^tsof the rule bf thie Company being oppressive ?-^heArdnb complaint of that. I had conversations with some of the half-castes from Red River that we employed ; and they told me that they had a right to the country in i^ue of their parentage, and wished, if they could, to get possession of it. They look upon the exclusive fur trade much as our poachers do upon the game laws in Hds tiountry, and they wish to have the fur trade to themselteis. 2943. Do you thick, f^om your experience of the matter, that you «odld soggett (my other way of keeping that country (I will not call it goreraing it) so W^ 1^ by means of ^e traders ? — I ha*i^e thought upon the subject ; I think that Cahcidit could n(!>t do it, sedng how that gbvehmient has failed alreacty with th6 Indians that cknie undei-its rule upon Lake Superidr. The Chippeways came down in a bbdy thie year after we parsed down, and destroyed a mining settlement ieit Mical Bay, without the Canadians being able to prevent it ; that was upon the north side of Lake Superior. •''>■'.■■ i- ;f#«' 3944. ChaiiTnan.'] When did that take placer — I think it was in 1849; A re^ment was sent up from Canada to suppress the foray ; but the Indians were rme, and several soldiers died from the setedty of me cKmate' in going up. was ttild by an officer who conducted apart <^ the fbrce that the poor men actually diiradf the cold in going up to suppress these In^ns, who had r^tiited to a distanbe, and were never seen at all after they had unfortunately destroyed the settlement. ' ' 2g4S: Mr. Edward £//ice.j K theite any way which you can surest of govemltig that countiy better than by means of the Gomiiany? — I can suggest no way: the country 1 think is perrectly quiet under the government of ike Hudson's Bay Company at present. I see several objections to anne^tijig it to Canada : in the first place, the Canadians will not pay any of the clergy on either side ; and as there are both Roman-Catholib and Protestant dei^ to be supported, and they are partly supported by (he Hudson's Bay Company, and patronised by them, I think thdt the religious bodies would be in an inferior condition if the country were annexed to Canada, and that the missionary service would suffer. If the Imperial Government were to take the country into its own hands, I think there would be an- immense staff of magistrates, and 0./5. u 2 people m-?"^. f.'V?. .i-3 *'. %L ^' v5-r Vyfli :t:;^!;;" ,■'■•'■■ 5^'^ m^-::m^- •Mi^C^vii;.. i 1 ii ' Ui. i5fr MiNimBS OF SVIDEffCB TAKEN BSFORB THB SirAhK«M«M»i pflbiiiHto fcedthon^ to be tuMnA met tiMt ipmt thinly neoDlrd counter^ Q J^WB^#HPB|^'» otiMwiM thnr eoaM neither MdMnt in it nor |;oT«ai it. t look'upoa it tha6 thtopenitupoi the< tmde would briag in fiTaipMtiM} «ad 4bn what I nw i fotmiaHf f cannot doubt bitt thatf the aam» veenee would wear wfaieh I witMtNedln 1819and l8S0t -as^Si You. have spoken of the means of living. I Uifaik fou winlered for^t tHoer Huree yean in the coantry t can you give us an idea of how you Uved in anr one of those winters ; of course you were kept in the best way that yom' could bet>--»We Uved in difiiBrent distiiots in the different winters: in the whiter of I»l!h>3^ when I Mfiompanied Sir John FrankUn, we lived at the HiidNn'S' 1^ Pfli^ tiqioni tiie Saskatdicwan, at Gumberland, and were fed by the Gompany^fpricotpally upon fish, and partly on meat ( but the next winter, of^ iSBO-1821, we Mred upon the Tnrge of the barren grounds, where there are refaidcer^ and we fed upon the reindeer and upon such fish as the small lake» yiildiatv.-.^. ■ - 9$47. IMr J. PoM^fM.] Where was that r*— At Port Enterprise, some dis- tahoa nortift of tiie GnNiit Slave Lake^^ ■"^ii-t 1: > ^r; ' ; ,.2 3948J MT.Edtcar4MUieei,] Hadyihi iAy fiurinaceous food or v^etables ^->*4 We had none whatever ; no vegetables of any description. ><« * 2940. Nor fioiirf^~Nor fbui^ ; and we lived tlmt year entirely in the same pre<»iM«» way that the Indians themselves did ; towards the spring frequently, passing two or three days without anything, to eat at all. rl 3950. Mr. Beth] in what latitude was that ? — It was in 64 degrees. 295t. Mh Edward JEUice.] You wintered one year up at Great Bear Lake, did you not r— Yet. i f >. ^53. 1 think there was one winter that you were there when you had hardly anydiing but fish to live upon ? — We passed an entire winter at Fort Franklin, almost who^ upon fish ; only in the spring we got a little animal food. 395.3. in met, there were six or seven months in which you tasted nothing but fish } — More than that ; I should say we were eight months at least without tasting anything but fish, except a hare occasionally, and a Mttle moose meat towaids the beginning of summer. • 2954. That may be the fate of any people I suppose who go up to live in that country ?— 'Any one wintering at the west raid of Great Bear Lake would have to depend entirely upon fish. ' ■2c)^5. Mr. KintuiirdJ] is that fish dried or fresh fish ? — It is frozen ; it keeps th< vvhdle winter. 2956. Chairmem.] When you talk of transferring >he country, do you mean the whole country ?— The whole country. 2957. Do you think it would be desirable, if it could be done in an equitable manner, to separate any portion of the country now administered by the Hud- son's Bay Company which would be available for the purposes of colonisation and settlement, leaving the rest to be managed as mere hunting ground by the Hudson's Bay Company i — There is no doubt that the Red River and. Vancouver's Island might he separated, but I do not think that settlers would go to the Red River until the progress of settling in Canada had advanced so far. ;i958. Would there be any harm in making such arrangements as would , enable settlers to go there if they wished to go there r— 1 see no objection to it, provided there is an arrangement made to govern the colony sufficiently. 2959. You mean that if the internal administration of such districts could be sufficiently provided for, you see no difficulty, so far as the Hudson's Bay Company are concerned, in their surrendering the administration of such districts, maintaining their administration over land which was calculated for nothing but for the fur trade ? — 'I can see no possible objection to separating the Red River if such is desired, provided a sufficient number of troops are sent ; there must be a military force, i think, otherwise it would not be safe. 2060. Why would that be more necessary ul file event of a separation than, it isnow ? — At present the Hudson's Bay Company's influence over the Indians is beneficial; the natives are dependent upon the Hudson's Bay Company for suppMts ; but if they could get supplies elsewhere, and if spirits were brought in (f6r there is nothing which will prevent the introduction of spirits but the resolution of the Company not to take them in) I think it would require a strong military force to keep tlie Indians in subjection. ag6i. You SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY, isf ii:.. df)6i . You bdiere that it woold be more difficult to goTerU that diaMkt under ■omdhing in the ahi^ of an independent government than it it wUk it fatvoM a part df Hba Hudson's Bajr CoapaAy's tenitory f — Ik would be i^re "^ diffietdtt tiian it is afc prewnt, ofwing to the hitmdnafehm of spirits and the admat > ^^^^ ''^ of designing people ; throughout Canada, when Indians reeeire the presenlt i^bsdi the Imperial Gorernmeat giros them, they part with tbcon withia a4 hours lor spirits, contrary to the law, but still tiie Indian superintendents cannot prerent the people crowding to the neighbourhood and suppljring spirits for the Uairicets and the other presents which the Indians receive mm the Gommittent. 9969. Is it not the case that the settled population at Btd River lis, upon tfae. - whole, a well ordered and nmral p(^n;^ition ?~-I canime neak pfrfton>dly^^|,tIl! have had to do with a number of Imlf caster from Red Rtver who ooDduiteill. themselves very well in our serrice ; I believe that twotthirdft of that cdmiyi' consist of the descendants of Canadian settlers who are huAtera; and from aU. 1 that I have learnt by reading about it, the remaining third are the descendaUla of Orkney men and other Europeans,^ and are tiie poasessoito df the property, and the more resident cultivators of the sotti and aire weU osAducted, but! have heard of the half-cairtes taktng^.tbe la^ii.into; dicut^vn haadsi i dqnot know how far it is true. lh',h'>ii*>Lyft'm "io s')fd«i*'>'s'.»T tyo ; tiViUubr ■.mnx bnii '»•'«' 2963. Mr. Kitmaird.] I think 3^ou liave lAated thai? duMng'the last 90 years i^ou have seen a very marked improvement is the Indiana F-^ Yes f,duriB|>:ithe^ ast 29 years a very great improvement. , » Si{ii.'> ;» nit v> /vt j/jjiVv.iuj 2964. Would not some of those lands whiob youiliiuvi dIteftilMfl as^not suited for Europeans to colonise and settle upon, do fbo 4m' lUdiaaiSettlMneBt P — The Indians do settle upon the lands as far as they choose; *'hd^e is aw prohiiii bition to that, and whenever they are inclined to form villages^ thl^iCfatKW^I^ land where they please at present. 1 > ji r- ji r.ni-^ti'idpjuh 2965. If you have seen £>uch a marked improvement vriUhin the ladt 30'yeantli do you not think that additional efforts by the Company, by fiidlitating i^le* mcnts, would greatly improve them ? — If the Company were to devote (tkeir- energies entirely to missionary purposes they might do more probably thaU' they have done, but at present they facilitate the admission of missionaries of : both religions, both the Protestant and the Roman-catholic. 2966. All round their forts, we have it in evidence that during, the winter a great number of these poor Indians perish for want of food ; if the Company encouraged village settlements of Indians, in whom your evidence tends to show that for the last 20 years there has been a great improvement, might they not make them refuges for the aged and the sick, where by accustoming them to habits of industry, as at the Red River, they might grow food enough to supply these starving people in the winter ?— It is extremely difficult to convert a hunting people into cultivators of the ^ound ; in the case of those who have led an independent life I believe it is one of the most difficult things to induce them to settle and to cultivate the ground ; for instance, there is a large body of Indians in the immediate vicinity of the Red River who refuse to cultivate tho ground, but prefer leading the precarious life of fishing the sturgeon, and hunting occasionally, or living upon the wild rice which is pro^;.-^ c «^f^.;'4 ,,: *^v ■■■-■'i' .'•*- y-X'% ■n^- ■ I ^' ■■' ■- 'f^ .;^f - .. 1 ; . ftf* •>.' ■ •p -V •'i=. '. ^. . vJ'- 1- '■•I ^■BainidU»«ojiMlvaAvtee. Thejriuve •bonditice of MuikMn uM gntt .I wid diat ^wtt ttfee'rfC^ppwwya did M« require the ti^pHe^of unirtiiiition. The^feed upon th« Bturgeon; which It M cbuiidMit upon Rihij' River and th* RiT«r Whudpeg, wh«M thw live. '■ •' "■• '•' . ■ ■ '■ 'I ' < •■- ■:; ■. • •-'■'.■.■': ' . •■.rfj ^975. Some of the Red fiher settled IndhM still go Out to the hunting ragu- hffly, yoftt «re aware t^I heKere tiiat two-lhirds of the population gu out to th« hunting.' '■■t>ht"^..< ■•./ :■•.■.■ • i ., . »974. And the other 'Odrd ttttain at home ?— The other thfard, who are (tf a different origin, remain at hoint. < 3975. What do they hunt with ? — ^They hunt with .he gUn t with firoarnis. 3976. Mrt BUI.] Whi(fli are the tribes that you ha>J *«ien(3oned which ore independent of the Company? — ^They are Sotoos and other (Jhippeways. 3977. Where are they located 7-— Upon the banlcs of the Rainy River and RiverWhnip^. > ■•■'" -i'- ■ ' ■'■■'■■ -,■-■. 397& Are the ChippewAyA independent also t-^Partly;' 3979; Yon amy^ that there'ife a creat'diffBi^enoe between the different tribes of Indiansj with regard to the oivlUtti^ of tfana ?^Yes.' ' ' 3980. What tribes do you consider as most readfly adopting the habits of civiUsed life? — The fSmaMpy and Sadntohewan Crees have adiqpted them more extensively than hny Other tribte.- ' ' ' ,« . 3981. Where ar6 they hMMted'?— ^They am located froni' Lake Winnipeg to the English river, called also the River Misshmippi, or the River of Churchill. 3983. Inand!rUi-ea«l«riy direction 'from Lake Winnipeg?— NorUierly; and in a direction firom eakt to' west f^rom Hiidson's to Carlton House. ' ' 39^3: Mr. Chthrks fitsnoiHiam.'] Can jm give any reason why the Crees more rend:!y adopt civilised life than the other Indians in the country r-^Speak- ing^ of th6 Grees, there are a great maily families of the Crees, the Sotoos, whom I have mentioned, dnd theChippeways, who speak the same language, and are the same people, only using different diatects. The Crees in the lower partot the Saski^elMwttii, the district which I have just defined, have been lOn^ dependent upon the traden for their supplies, and therefore they have the more easily assumed the habits of civiKsed life. But the Crees upon the upper ptort of the Saskatchewan, who associate with the Stone Indians, are very turbulent and' very difficult to manage. •■ ^ 2984. Are not most of the Red River half-breeds, half-breed Crees f^^I suppose they'are. ■ :••' v.)»s<\, f! 21)65. Do you not think that that perhaps is a reason why they more readily iidopt the habits and customs of civilised man ? — I cannot think that that is i^ reawm. • • ' ■ ■ ■■ ;'rftf«p» . 3986. Mr. Bell.] Have you reason to believe that the Company encburoge thii ' settlement of the Indians, Wherever it is practicable, and assist the missionaries ; * or rather, do not discourage the missionaries, in any attempts which they make . for settlement } — I believe that they assist the missionaries to a certain extent (I do not know to what nttent), in a pecuniary point of view. 2987. But you have no reason to suppose that they throw any obstacles in the way of the missionaries ? — On the contrary ; I had a good deal of con- versation with the Roman-catholic missionaries at Lac La Crosse, and they expressed themselves highly pleased at the attention which was shown to them. 2988. Have you ever had' oecteion to witness cases of famine among the Indians ? — I have seen the Indians come in to the expedition posts suffering from famine, aUd they were rfeUeved. 2989. Have you seen any cases of starvation, of Indians having abf^olutely died from want ? — No, I have witnessed no instances of that ; I have heard of Br " '*'*K' ■ ft./- piany. 39y«- 1" te.- m kfe^ 'im-,:. 8ELSCT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 159 8990. fci «M: I tbink mottljr among the northern Indians ; 1 hare heard of eeveral caaei.. - •991. IJBon tike MadiMwie Rirer?^Ufon tha Madianaia Rivds «nd eaat- mxA 9i ¥on (?Upa«nqFan« whm thejr hav« bean oat hnnting, and have dettrojrd their property. Tcvy often.' When » nacibeni Indian diaiy the habit li to 4kabof emeryMng at tiM eneampincnkr and to aaako lor tiho inaareat post of the Comnai^, and thejr nuj oftea starve on tlM «ay»* That and other •canMBf-aiioh as •, bad hnnt, a bad season, orei^daate dlwasa, will psodnoe /amine in a ooumrjr where the aattves depma almost solely upon hnnlln^ eC'fishlag for auMort. aiMa. Mr. Gritgan.] lime Indians erndd at^oo on Aehr hunt without the suppUea whidi theyneelve from the forts, oouM they ?— Not qow that they hare been accustomed to firearms. 9993. Are not the Indians supplied with, the ammnnkian in barter for their skins or the products which they am able to WMhange with the Company ? — I believe ammunition is never supplied by the Company in exchange fur skins, as fisr as 1 undnatood. The traders give ammunitKin liwr provMons, or supply it to the natives gratnitonriy if they require it; tlieybuter goods, blankets, and other articles a8 to th<' n n >'; being willing to sell ( hut the fact, I believe, is, that they do not ) as -its m I can learn, the Indian never parts with his skins for ammunition. 2996. Have any instances come within your knowledge in which amjnV'L'ft^' lion has been refused to the Indiana for the ftirar — No; as far ut «ve v:ru concerned ourselves in the expedition, we have 4>een compelled to refuse Au^a vr- nition from not having it to give ; but I think that when ammunitioa lr> *^:-nti- dant in the trading forts it is never refused. r J[y.i'.^» > 2997. It is given away gratuitously ?— Provided the Indian is in vfer f ai'T . pens that the ammunition at a post is exhausted; 2995. You have said, "provided the Indian be in want of the ammv: ''tion ;" how is the Indian's want of ammunition ascevtuned? — What I mean cv iria being in want is, if he has no provisions to dispose of. An Indian, if h<^ mfi a successful hunt, kills more provision than he requires- for his own use, Mirt he barters it for ammunition. It ia a common thing. We frequently purohasfjd geese and fowl and deer from the Indians, and gave them ammunition fcr them. 2999. I am speaking exclusively of the establishments of the Hudson's Bay Company?— I am merely illustrating the practice^ Notbaving resided at the trading posts of the Hudson's Bay Company for many seasons, I cannot tf>l I whether it is invaiiably the case or not ; bnt Iwas told in the country tlwt', rhey never do purchase furs with ammunition. How far that was ccv^rcdL ':'k)rjrmff' tiou, I cannot say. . », - ». Sooo. My question was, whether any instances had come withl'A'yoiir^Vjrio.t- ledge in which ammunition had been refused to the Indians ? — N.)-. nothing has come under my knowledge as to the refusal of ammmiitto" 3001. Lord Stanley,'] But it might very well happen that >".i.anunit«o»i should be refused to a party of Indians at one of ;the fo"tf 'n c/ixseqiASi.ce of the supply at the fort itself being short ? ^^ Yes, I If.2 e say that has frequently occurred. I have known the posts w'r^.out Htniauittionyand in descending the Mackenzie's River the last timo we supplied one of the forts with ammu- nition, because theirs was exhausted, and the' Indians wM-e remaimng at the post waiting for the supplies coming in. Upon our having supplied the fort they were enabled to give ammunition to the natives, and send them o£E to their hunts. f 3002. In reference to what you said about the famines among the Indians, were these common in the southern part of the territory, gr only in the far 0.25. ■■/-■ • -.- ' '■."\ •'■ -;v > i'^m'^r^:. •.i*" - .- Ai'^.^"- I ■ 'M^i ••57- :a i'i' . ^• north? ••f ■ • I i i ^ r\ I !'1 I 1^ i'':"'i^l^"4ii?^rifl'T'iii i6o MINUTBS OP TAKiSIf BEtORE THE Bit J. JHekardmt, north r — I did »ot hear of them in' the south; they are mostly amongst the "•■• northern Indians. 9 Marrh 1857. ' t >i'^'"xl " 3003. I9 countries where all ooltivation of the soil is impossible, and where human subristenee can only be obtained by hunting or fishing r— In a country where cultivation cannot be carried on adyanti^^usly. 3004. Mr. Orogan.] You gave us an account of your journey from Fort WiUiai!^ toward we settlement of Assiniboine, and you described some parts of that country up as far as the Riuny Lake ; you said that there "were occasional parts where you thought settlement might be made? — I did not go to the Assiniboine at dl; I came down the lUver Winning, to the eastward of it. 3005. You vent throi«h fta|ny Ldfue ?—■ Yes. 3006. Did you descend the river firom that to the Lake of the Woods ?^ Yes. - ' 3007« What is the nature of the country about there?— The Rainy Lake River is more fertile than almost any other part of that district which we saw. 3008. And that would be adapted for settlement ?— That would be adapted ibr settlement, and that is precisely the country which the tribe of Ghiiqpe- ways, of whom I spoke, inhabit. The Canadian missionaries have been trying to make villages there, andiailed. 3009. Can you ^ve us a description of the country from the Lake of they. Woods to Lake Winnipeg? — The descent of the River Winnipeg is through a very rocky country, and ftill of rapids, and it is a very dangerous river to descend ; no cultivation, as faras I know, can be established upon the immediate banks of that riv^. 3010. You passed some time at Fort Cumberland? — Yes. 3011. Have you any reason whatever to doubt that that district is capable of settlement and cultivation ?•— Portions of it are capable of cultivation ; it is ttot a cUstrict which a former would choose. 3012. Will you explain why?— I have already mentioned that the sub- stratum is magnesian limestone ; there is very little soil over it ; the soil is shallow. 3313. There has been cultivation at Fort Cumberland, at the station of the Huron's Bay Company, I believe?— There have been fields cultivated* 3014. To any extent?— I cannot speak of the extent, probably 20 acrefi ' , 3<^)5- Quite sufficient, however, to show that both cUmate and soil were suitable for cultivation t — It produced grain for the use of the post. 3016. At the time you visited it, was it on your first, second, or last expe- dition ? — ^The first year that we were tiiere was the winter of 1819 and 1820 : we wintered there. ' 3017, Was that the only occasion on which you resided there ? — It was the only occasion on which I resided there ; we passed to and fro upon every other expedition. 3018. Prom your knowledge of the country, has any progress been made in that settlement by the Hudson's Bay Company, in the spread of cultivation? — The introduction, of cattle was the only great progress that I saw; they liad introduced cows in great numbers. 3019. Was not it at Fort Cumberland that Governor Williams used to reside when he was governor ? — Yes. 3020. Did he not go to a good deal of trouble and expense in getting up an agricultural establishment there ? — He cultivated several fields, but I do not think that he was very successful. 3021. Was it from the crops failing?— The extent was not great ; I do not think that altogether he cultivated above 20 acres. 3022. Were there farm buildings and things put up ? — ^There were no farm buildings when I was there : there was a stable for horses. 3023. In what state was it when you visited it ; was the agricultural colony endeavoured to be extended, or was it retrograding r — It was not improved the lost time I visited it. It was not of so great an extent, I think ; but a few miles lower down, at the Pas, there was an Indian village established. 3024. Near Fort Pelly ? — No, lower down the river ; above Cedar Lake. 3025. Were they encouraged there ? — They were encouraged. A church was buil^, and a school was eatabUshed, and the Indians collected in the vilUigu Uear the church. 3026. Were ^m> .m W: ■ '.■■Vr' <■ SELECt GO a*i>tm^ miJiM^ 'S^ NY. 161 3026. Were the Indians becoming agricultuiists there, and depending upon the soil more than upon the hunting ? — They yiexe agriculturists to a certain extent ; but they did not remain there the whole season ; they would go to hunt occasionally. 3027. Was it that the quantity of produce which they got from the soil was insufficient for their maintenance ?-r-They did not cultivate to the extent to produce vegetables for their whole maintenance, and I do not thinli that Indiann would consent to live entirely upon vegetables. 3028. Lord StanltjfJ] Even among the settled Indians, I suppose, there is no tribe which lives entirely by cultivation ; they look to it rather as a resource when hunting and fishing are not sufficient for their support ? — I do not Iknow any tribe which does it. Even in Canada they have their hunting grounds reserved to them. 3029. Mr. Grogan.l Was Governor Williams at Fort Cumberland «n your, first visit ? — Yes. 3030. How long after your first visit did he remain as governor? — He remained as governor, but he moved to the south part of James's Bay ; he moved down to Moose Factory. 303 1 . He was residing there as governor also ? — ^At that time there were two governors ; Governor Simpson became governor of the northern district ; the amalgamation of the companies took place during the time that we were in the north, and when we returned again we found Governor ^mpson governing the northern part of the oountity, and Governor Williams the souUi. 3032. Was the appointment of governor of the south considered promotion,f or the contrary ?— It was divided betwwn the two ; I do not know whether Governor WiUiaogs chose the south in preference or not. 3033. If I understand you correctiy, a part of your endence is, that as regards the Red River Settlement and districts about it, there is a considerable tract capable of being brought into colonisation, but the want of a ready com- munication to export the produce is the great drawback ? — The want of com- munication ; and from what I observed in Canada no settlers will go a great distance from the settled posts ; they creep along more or less rapidly, but a settler does not like to go into a wilderness away from a neighbourhood ; hnd there is a large district along the north side of Lake Superior whi(^h must be settled before settiers will flock to the Red River. 3034. Mr. BeU.^ Is that in Canada or in the Hudson's Bay territories ? — It is in Canada ; I do not know exactiy the boundary. 3035. Sir /. PaHngtm.^ It is in both, is it not?— The Hudson's Bay Com-' pany have posts there ; but I suppose it is under the Government of Canada. 3036. Is not the coimtry on the north of Lake Superior, both that part which is in Canada and that which is in the Hudson's Bay territory, at present wholly unsettled? — It is not wholly unsettled ; I do not know what it is at the present moment ; at the time that I passed there were five or six mining com- panies located upon it. n tj^ 3037. At what distance from Lake Superior?— Upon the borders of Lake Superior. 3038. But the district oi country to the north of Lake Superior is wholly unsettled, is it not ?— It is wholly unsettied, except by the Indian native tribes. 3039. The frontier between Lake Superior and the Red River is also unsettled, is it not ? — The only fixed residences which intervene are the Hudson's Bay posts. 3040. What is the distance in miles from the nearest point of Lake Superior to the Red River Settiement ? — I should say from 250 to 300 miles. 3041- Mr. Edward EUice.'] I think we have it in evidence that it is about .'iOO miles ? — Yes ; that is following the canoe route. 3042. Mr. Grogan.'] In your journeys to that country I believe you travelled from Fort William to Lake Winnipeg very much the same district ?— Yes. 3043. Upon all occasions ? — Upon all occasions. • ;.;,, :. 3044. That covered a space of nearly 30 years ? — Yes, 29 years, 3045. When you first went there the dispute between the North- Western Company and the Hudson's Bay Company existed ? — It did. 3046. The North- Webtern Company had a station at Fort William, had they not?— They had. 3047. Had they stations along this route which you have described to us 0.25, X towards «ir J. AtdbniiMi, C. B. -P .(.■■- 9 March 1857. 1 62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE g March 1B57. '^:i-.K.. Sir /. nukardton, towarf^s Lake Winnipeg ? — The Hudson's Bay Company and the North- '^'*' Western Company had parallel stations. In 1819 I did not travel up that way ; it was from 1825 that I travelled that route ; it was only in two journeys to and fro that I travelled that route. 3048. When the North-Westem Company were hunting for furs in Rupert's Land, and that district, was it by Fort William that they got their supplies into that country ? — Yes. :. - }i r 3049. As considering it the most convenient for the supply of their stations ) ■ — It was the only one that was open to them ; they had no other route. 30 jo. Was not it the most convenient also ? — No ; they would have got their supplies in cheaper by Hudson's Bay if that route had been open to them. It was not the most convenient, because the moment that the companies amalgamated they ceased to get their supplies by that route. 3051. Might not there be another reason besides that; the exclusive privilege of the Bay, for Instance ? — A mercantile company would take the ■ cheapest route, I suppose, for carrying in their goods. 3052. But, in point of fact, the North-Westem Company, when they hunted that country, sent in all their supplies to it by Fort William and the river which you have described? — Yes, that was their only route. 3053. It is all canoe work, is It not ?— It is canoe "Work entirely. / 3054. On the last occasion when you travelled there, was the river in » better state or in a worse state than when you first visited it ? — The route, I think, is not in a better state ; I think it is worse from the progress of time ; the portages are worse. 3055- There has been no expense or trouble taken, in fact, to keep the route open ? — I cannot speak as to the expense ; but I think that the route was not improved. 3050. Could it, in your opinion, have been improved ? — There is no doubt that rosxis could be made at an enormous expense. 3057. I think you said something about the portages not being in a very good state ; could not they have been maintained at least in the state that they were in at first? — They could; but the Americans travelled the same portages in part ; it must be a joint thing their doing it, I think. 30,58. Do you mean that it would not be right that the entire expense should be thrown upon the Company on one side of the river ? — ^Yes. 3059. If that route were opened, and some expense incurred in the imprr'/e- ment of these portages, and in making that route more perfect, would not it conduce very much to what you say is the absolute sine qua noti of the country, namely, an improved communication with the settled parts of Canada ? — If you could make a railroad ; but there is no route in which canoes are exclusively employed which will ever make the carriage of grain profitable. The expense of a canoe for a single season (and a season is always implied in it) is never less than 300 /. ; it is from 300 /. to 500 /. for the wages of the men and their maintenance. One of these large canoes will carry about 60 or 60 pieces of goods of 90 lbs. weight each ; that would make the grain excessively expensive ; I believe the expense was enormous in endeavouring to carry grain up to supply the troops at lied River. That route was chosen, and the grain was carried up at a vast expense. Such a canoe as I have upoken of is manned by seveA to fourteen men. $060. How far does a canoe, such as you have describe^d, travel ? — The large north canoe goes only to Fort William ; there it is changed for small c&aoes. The same 1 4 men who man one of the large canoes to Fort William man two' small canoes. But the expense of the two small north canoes would be the same as the expense of one large canoe with 14 men, because there are seven men to each small <;anoe. 3061 . Have you travelled through the parts of Minesota and the United States which adjoin our boundary there ? — Yes, I have been through Lake Huron, and have seen that part of Michigan , 3ot)2. In the country which you speak of about Lake Huron and Michigan, are there a variety of American settlements and resident establishments which have grown very fast indeed ? — Very fast. >k' /".1> . • ;l:»i: f i.i.»^,- 3o()3. Have they the facilities of roads, or Is it by cnnoe work that they are obliged to derive their sui)plies ? — They have railroads and steamboats ; there are some of the finest . teamboats in the world running to those settlements upon ■■^^.,!^-'':^k:,^ll. ;/:,,:*, •o^UCS 'm&y^^--. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 163 upon Lake Michigan ; there is a succession o^* large steamboats, three or four running in a day to Michilimackinac on Lake Juron; and there is a railroad from New York to Chicago and Illinois. 3064. Mr. Bell.'} There are steamboats on Lake Superior, are three not ?— Now there are steamboats on Lake Superior. 3065. But they only go to the American settlements ; there are none to the English settlements ? — ^They were not running when I nas there. 3066. Mr. Grogan.'] You have described these powerful steamboats and rail- roads also to some of the new American settlements ; were the settlements in existence before these steamers went there, or did the steamers create the settlements ?— Michilimacldnachas been in existence since the tine of the con- quest of Canada. 3067. Have you ever been at a town called Superior, on th«? American side of the upper end of Lake Superior ? — No ; I have not bee-i v (; Fond du Lac at all. 3068. Have you been at Chicago ? — No ; I have been at Mic'uilimackinac only. 3069. We find settlements on the American territory which grow very rapidly indeed, and steamers and railroads running into them ; why are there not settlements of the same description on the British side of the line ? — That is the great thoroughfare for emigrants to the Mississippi Valley ; they go f rem ' New York by that route to the Mississippi ; there is a constant passage of tra- vdlers. I have conversed lately with a farmer from Illinois; he told me that in that very fertile country, where they could take 20 crops in succession without manuring the ground, their grain was of no value without a railway, and settlers were very scarce ; they ran a line of railway through a part of the country, and instantly villages sprang up on both sides, and bags of grain were piled up on each side of the railway, more than they could carry away. 3070. Would not the former part of your description of Illinois exactly apply to the Red River Settlement, that the inhabitants there were few, and that the land was fertile, but that they wanted a mode of exporting their produce r— If you carried a railway to the Red River, I think you would have settlers. 3071. Previously to the establish-ient of a railway, however, to the Illinois district which you spoke of, people went and settled in that district?— They did settle, but not in the same numbers ; they were in smaller numbers ; the numbers increased rapidly after the opening up of the railroad. *' p;!^84. Wr^ it of good quality J— The piece that I saw was of very good -*:■ quality. •> 3085. Do y(m think it is found in considerable quantity ?-— That I cannot .; say ; I was imable to visit the spot ' ,' 3086. You s|^ke of the inundations on the Saskatchewan River ; do they ievre a deposit r--~They do. i 3087. What description of deposit ?~They leave alluvial deposit, but it is swept away in the spring floods again ; there are large Pluvial flats produced, and they are constantly changing their situation. r> 3088. So that th^ do not leave any great body of soil ?— -It would not be safe ih .to build on many of them ; but thrare are bluffs, such as that occupied by the Indians, raised four or five feet above the level of the floods ; there are villi^es located there. 3089. You were speaking of ground-ice ; it has been mentioned in the '4t Committee that there are swamps, between Lake Superior and Lake Winnipeg, frozen permanently throughout the year ; have you found that to be the case ? X> — I have found late in the summer, when wading in lakes to collect water ,'1' plants, ice under zsy feet, but I cannot speak as to the extent. There is one ' lake called Cold Water hake, which has an exceedmgly low temperature at all seasons of the fear ; upon the height of land there. 3090. The subject of the influence of climate upon the cultivation of the ground has been mentioned several times ; you say that clearing woods rather deteriorates the climate ; what do you think is the effect of draining marshes >u and swamps ?— I should think that it woiUd improve the climate. ' 3091. Should you ima^ne that any of this marshy country would, il 8v-; ' thoroughly drained ; but It. must be a very remote thing ; the country raust be settled previously. 309-^. Mr. Charles Fitzwiiliam.] Have any geological surveys been made of »n.that country ? — No, unfortunately not; the north shore of Lake Superior has been thoroughly surveyed by Mr. Logan and his assiatants. 3093. W£it has been the result of that ? — ^They found some minerals, which have been worked ; they found lead and copper. 3094. Any iron? — I dare say there is iron ; I saw plenty of iron ore in some places ; but that has not been worked, so far as I know ; there were four or five Canadian companies formed for working minerals, and they all failed. 3095. Mr. Bell.} Do you understand why they failed, seeing that there are successful companies on the south shore of the Lake ? — But that is a very different deposit ; that is native copi.>er. . 3096. Mr. Charles Fitzwilliam^] Were those mining companies which failed under the direction of competent persons?— That 1 cannot tell; they had miners from this country ; there was a mine which I saw carried on, and apparently there were a great many people employed — the Bruce mine upon Lake Huron ; that has failed, I understand, as a speculation, and the shares. .!>//! have fallen to a nominal price. 3097. Mr. Edward ElUee.] But the Hudson's Bay Company had nothing to irtc» do with any of these mines ? — No ; in the case of a mine established on I^ke W|^ Superior, the Colonial Legislature granted the mine to a company, without buying the Indian right, and that was the cause of the Indians coming down in force and dispossessing the miners and burning the whole village. 3098. Mr. Bell.] Then you have no reason to suppose that if the Indians had their rights purchased fairly they would disturb any mining operaticms ? — No ; I think a small amount of purchase -money would have contented them. 3099. And this mining settlement was broken up entirely from the want of taking that prudent and reasonable precaution ? — From want of management. 3100. Mr. tKY *■% ■■'a -fU t>H ,iKf '.1!il , * 'I.e. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 165 ' 3100. Mr. Grogan,'] Would the failure of these mining companies to which you refer have occurred if that precautionary step had been taken ? — I cannot say ; I believe they were not productive as mercantile speculations. 3101. You describe that the Indiana came down en tnatte and burnt and destroyed the whole settlement ? — They destroyed one mine ; but there were several mines at various distances. 3103. Was the destruction of the settlement and of tU^ machinery, and so on, the cause of the failure or abandonment of the mine, as far as you know?— I suppose the miners would have resumed it had it been remunerative ; and that it was not worth their while to incur the expense a second time. 3103. Mr. ChtMrlea Fttzwilliam.] So thait you think that the country to the north of Lak« Superior is not sufficiently rich in minoral produce to repay mining companies ? —Minerals have not as yet been found in sufficient quratity. It is very probable that if that country were thoroughly explored there might be workable minerals discovered. I think the geological formation is promising. 3104. Mr. Bell.^ You do not know of any extensive '>xaminations of that part of thie. country ; you are not aware that the Hudson's Bay Company have taken any trouble in it? — ^The Canadian Legislature have had a thorough survey by a competent and able man, Mr. Logan, with a staff of assistants. 3105. Mr. Edward EtUce.j All these mines of which you have spoken, where there has been either failure or success, are in Canada, and not in the Hudson's Bay territories, I believe r — They are all in the Canadian terri* tory. 3 1 06. Mr. Bell.] Then there has been no mine opened on the Hudson's Bay territory ? — Not that I know of; the watershed into Hudson's Bay, I suppose, divides the two Governments ; the watershed into Lake Superior belongs to Canada, and the watershed into Hudson's Bay to the Hudson's Bay territory. 3 1 07. Mr. Charles Fittwilliam.'] lint 1 see marked on the map Fort William as a Hudson's Bay post ?— They have posts aU along the Labrador coast and northern shores of the Great Lakes. ' '■■^-'ifi^lyf ; "^^aKJi^-siK y«^(n>ire)t;,»j> -a- 3108. I find the following passage in your bibokv ^' It would be true economy in the Imperial Government or in the Hudson's Bay Company, who are the virtual sovereigns of the vast territory which spreads northwards from Lake Superior, to ascertain without delay the mineral treasures it contains. I have little doubt of many of the accessible districts abounding in metallic wealth of far greater value than all the returns which the fiir trade can ever yield " ? — Yes ; that was the opinion I formed from seeing it, but 1 did not find these minerals myself ; I only judged from the nature of the geological forma- tion. 3109. Mr. Cfrogan.'] But you see no reason to change the opinion which you there expressed ? — I have not changed it ; I thin!; if the country were thoroughly explored minerals would be discovered. We fiud in our own country that valuable minerals are discovered every day. 3110. Mr. Bell.] How far have you traced copper in your journeys ; there is a considerable quantity, I believe, in the north, on the Copper Mine River ? — There is a large copper district on each side of the Copper Mine River. 3111. Between these copper deposits on Lake Superior and those in the north, have you met with any interme^ate ones ? — There is no mineral, as far as i know, in the limestone districts. ; ri'*!{mii 3112. This is your map, and the pink col&ur shows the primitive rock ?--' Yes, that shows the course of it, but it is exceedingly difficult to traverse that upper part. 3113. You do not know of any other veins of metal which have been met with ?— I know of none tmtil you get to the Copper Mine River. 31 14. With regard to the cotd on the Saskatchewan, I do not think your answer was perfectly clear as to the quality of it r — ^The specimens which 1 saw were tertiary coal. 3115. Was it all inferior coal r — It is all inferior coal ; it is not similar to the large coalfield which is worked in England ; it is a kind of fossilised wood, a lignite. 3116. Is it not good for combustion ? — It burns, but it could not be used for purposes of art. It would not heat a steam-engine well. 3117. You said that the coal on the Mackenzie was bad, from the quantity of sulphur?— Yes. 0.J5. X 3 3118. Is Sir /. RiehanUoH, C.B. 9 Maich 1857. I'll It ""fl f it \ i66 MINUTES OP EVIDENCR TAKEN BEFORE THE C.B. 9M*roh 1857. 3118, Is that on the Saskatchewan liable to the same objection ? It is liable to the same objection, but I did not visit the deposits upon the Saskatchewan ; I do not know their extent. 3119. Tfou do not know of any secondary coal formations in the Hudson's Bay territories ? — None. There are coal formations in the Arctic Sea of the proper coalfield. 31 ao. Near the mouth of the Mackenzie River ?— No, they are further north still ; on Parry's Islands. 3m. Near Melville Island ?— Yes, at 74 and 76 degrees. There is some also in Greenland, I understand. 3122. You have mentioned Fort Liard in your book as the northern limit of the economic cultivation of grain } — Yes. 3123. I do not quite understand what you mean by economic cultivation ?— • Where the return will be sufficient to induce people to sow. 3124. Supposing it was found that there was any mineral wealth in that dis- trict up as far as Fort Liard to induce settlement, the country and the soil would enable the cultivation of grain to be carried out sufficiently to support a settle- ment, thot^h it would not be sufficient to induce people to go as agriculturists ? — I did not visit Fort liard, so that I cannot tell what extent of grouud is avail- able ; I only know that it has been cultivated there ; but at Fort Simpson, which is not far from it, a little more northerly, they cultivate barley and rear cattle, but they bring their hay 150 miles down the river to feed their stock during the winter of nine months. They actually cut their hay 150 miles distant from the post. 31 25. With regard to the banks of the Peace River ; have you travelled upS- the Peace River at all? — A little way; it crosses through a prairie country, much of it. 3126. Does the river run prindpally through a prairie country, or are the blanks wooded ? — The banks are wooded, but there is an elevated plateau of prairie land. 3127. Would you not consider that that would be a favourable agricultural Covtntrj, supposing it was more accessible ; that is to say, that the prairies might be used for sheep and for pasture, and the wooded portions might be cultivated?— They could cultivate grain, so far as I understand, upon the allu- •#ial points of the Peace River ; but the existence of wolves over the whole prairies completely precludes the depasturing of sheep. The wolves are too numerous for any domestic cattle to be turned out upon the prairies. 3128. Lord John RmselL] With regard to the prospects for the future, sup- posing that no change was made by the Government or by Parliament in the , . authority which the Hudson's Bay Company have hitherto had, do you. think ; iv that they would be able to preserve that authority as well as they have hitherto '^S- done? — I think so. Judging from the past, 1 think they would be able to preserve it in the future. The onlv disturbance of the peace which I expect might arise would be from the Red River, from the half-caste settlers there wishing to interfere with the fur trade ', I think they would be likely to give some trouble. 3129. Would not persons from the United States or from Canada be likely to wish to settle there, and settling there interfere with the fur trade ? — I think the fur trade is the only thing that would bring them there ; I do not think they would come as settlers for any other reason. 3130. Supposing that they settled for the reason of interfering in the fur trade, which seems very possible, would not their attempts to get possession of the fur trade or to interfere in the fur trade, a good deal disturb the authority of the Hudson's Bay Company ? — As long as the Hudson's Bay Company retain their influence over the Indians, I think they can prevent the people from passing inio the interior and disturbing them much, but if the trade were opened, I think that a contest would arise. 3131. Do you think that in the present state of that district, and of the tteighbouring country, the trade can be kept closed ?— I think so for some time, until settling advances nearer to them ; at present they are at such a distance from any populous country, that Ihey are secluded as it were from the world. 3132. Do you contemplate preventing settlement as far as possible, or fkHowing settlement, endeavouring to prevent that settlement being turned into interference \ '■:^\ fe^^ - •'iiffc- ^ SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY. 167 interference with the fur trade ?— I do not see that settlementn at the Red River would interfere with it, but settlements further north, I think, would interfere with the fur trade. 3 1 33. Therefore, you would not object to see settlement make progress at the Red River ? — If the Red Uiver were put under a sufficiently powerful government, apart from the Company, I see no reason why it should not be settled, if they could get settlers to go there ; but I do not think that settlers will go, except, as «I said before, to carry on the fur trade. 3134. Supposing the Red River Settlement to be a separate territory, could there be a frontier between the Red River Settlement and the country to the north of it which would be available, and could be sufficiently marked to be observed ? — There is no natural boundary ; the only thing is that the Indians are under the cohtrol of the Hudson's Bay Company, and they could remove them from the immediate vicinity of the settler^. 3135. Are you aware whether the fur trade which has been carried on by citizens of the United States within the borders of the Hudson's Bay Company's territory has been very profitable to the individuals ? — I cannot speak as to that ; my information is very imperfect upon that subject ; I have no personal ^' knowledge of it ; the United States Fur Company have posts in the immediate vicinity of the Hudson's Bay posts, and they will give a high price for the furs of course, and use every means to get the Indians to bring the furs to them, but how far it is profitable I cannot say. 3136. Do you see any objection to giving every facility in order to promote communication between Lake Superior and the Red River Settlement, to pro- mote roads and other means of intercourse ? — I see no objection to improving ; the communications at all ; naturally if the Government were to make a road ' there they would wish it removed from the United States frontier. 3137. Could there be a good communication from Lake Superior without at all touching upon the United States territory 1 — 1 think it would be difficult to 5 find a good route ; the country is very hilly and rocky. ^ 1 3 '38. 'Ihe country in that part near Lake Superior is ver) difficult and > rocky ? —It is very (Ufficult. The watershed is close to Lake Superior, and the ascent very sudden ; within a distance of 50 miles, the ascent is from 600 to 900 feet. „^is m: '->;•.': .^.. -A. 9 M^rch 1857. 168 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE: HUDSON'S BAY COBfPilNY. sir J. RiOmrd^, from Uke Winnipeg, and send them to hunt a litde Airther north, to out oil ' ' the communication. 3145- Mr. Bell.] Would you conrider that there was any advantage in removing Indians who were settled and had become cultivators of the soil ?— I do not think they could remove them ; they would not move. 3146. It has beoi done in the United States, and also in Canada f— That was done by force. ^. . 3<47> The Indians when they had settled the country and brought it into cultivation objected verv much to be removed?— Exceedingly. 3148. Mr. Edward JS/Zice.] Do you not thbik that if the Red Biver Settle- ment were w open colony the Indians from all parts of the territory would flock towards it in the hopes of getting liquor ? — ^lliat I cannot say ; if liquor were easily acquired I thmk that a great part of the furs viould be carried in that direction to procure liquw. ^ 3M9« Mr. Grogan.} The great want in that country in the way of colonisa^"^ tion is the means of a ready communication for the transit <^ their goods ?-^ The means of exporting the produce ; the want of that would bar odtivation. 3150. A project has been mentioned faerjB as being contemplated for a canal somewhere from Fond du Lac to communicate with tiie lower end of the Rainy Lake in the British territory ; if such a naripLble canal were constructed, for instance, would that in your opinion answer the purpose ? — It would not answer the purpose for Red River without passing tlirough the American territory, and from Rainy Lake the route would te through a part of the American territory, unless they descended the difficult river Winnipeg. 3151. IshouldtcU you that the project is American; to construct it through American soil as far as it goes ? — If they could construct a canal there, it would make the communication with Red lUver easier ; but it would be through American territory. 3152.^ But would it not have the effect of opening up that country fw settlers r — I think so. If it is worth wluie to make a camd, the projectors must see their way to the settling of people there ; but that would 1^ in the Amcf rican territory, as I say. 3153. Is it within your knowledge that there is any communication by the Rat or Reed River, Lake Winnipeg, and Red River?— I have heard that there is a canoe route in that direction. 3154. But you have never traversed it r — ^I have never traversed it ; I have heard that there is a canoe route across there, and that the Americans travel :» in that direction. 3155. Mr. Edward ElUce.] For how many months in the year would the route be open by canal, by ordinary means i — Between four and five months; I suppose five months. 3156. And for the other seven months it would be closed ? — ^Yes. 3157. Mr. Blackburn.} How many feet did you say the level of Rainy Lake was above Lake Superior i — I do not know without reference ; I suppose that Bainy Lake would probably be 500 feet ; it is upon the other ride 01 the wator shed, upon the descent to Lake Winnipeg. > 3158. So that there is no great probability of a canal being made to rise to a sup^or level of 500 feet ? — No, I should think not ; tliere would be a great many locks.