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the: btxdc3-et?^_/ 
 
 SPBE0HE8 OF HON. UBSSBS. JONBB, OBEENWAT (AS BBFOBTBD BT THX "FBBSI 
 
 PBBSS") NOBQTTAT AKD ZiABlVIiraB (as BEFOBTES by the " OAIili") 
 
 OK THE BUDQET, IK THE MAKITOBA liBQISIiATUBE, OK 
 
 Mat 13th, and VoiJiOwzKo datb. 
 
 ALSO THE Debates ok the Floatikq of the Pbovikoial Bokdb akd the 
 Abakdonuekt of the Bed Biveb vax.lbt Bail way. 
 
 TREASURER JONES' SPEECH. 
 
 As Reported by the **Fkeh Press." 
 
 
 At four o'clock Hon. Mr. Jones rose td 
 deliver the budget speech. The applause 
 with which he was greeted testified to his 
 popularity and to the great things expect- 
 ed from his effort. He began by asking 
 the indulgence of the House in view of 
 his inexperience and the short time and 
 unfavorable circumstances in which he 
 had been engaged in looking into the ftn~ 
 ancial situation of the Province. He be- 
 lieved the custom had been in former 
 years, in laying the estimates on the table 
 to deal largely with matters other thani 
 those which might be considered strictly 
 flnanciak. The practice had been to re- 
 view to a considerable extent the past his* 
 tory of the province, and doubtless it 
 would be expected by some that he would 
 take this course, but such was not his in- 
 tention. It would indeed be a pleasure to 
 him, as to eve^y member, to discuss the 
 immediate pasc in this province, more par- 
 ticularly the past year with reference to 
 the magniflcefit harvest produced, the 
 large exportation made and matters 
 in connection therewith; this, how- 
 ever, had been so ably dealt with by 
 the member for North Dufferin in moving 
 the reply to the Speech from the Throne 
 that he did not think it desirable to dis- 
 cuss it further. He would, therefore, 
 proceed to mattery laore directly connect- 
 ed with finance, including flzst the posi- 
 tion of affairs when he entered upon his 
 duties as Provincial Treasurer, and after- 
 wards the supplementary estimates for 
 the present fiscal year; the question of the 
 loan which the House had authorized; the 
 estimates of expenditures for the fiscal 
 year ending June 30th, 1889, making a few 
 comparisons with past years; and matters 
 which had come under his notice 
 more especially and under the notice of the 
 Government since they took office. He 
 would firat Ko over shortly matters with 
 which the Government had dealt 
 
 SINCE TAKING OFFICE. 
 
 About the first thing the Government did 
 was to appoint auditors— in fact, the first 
 duty that devolved upou blm as iTovin- 
 cial Treasurer upon taking charge of the 
 office was to recommend to the members 
 of the Government that auditors be ap- 
 pointed to audit the books of the PrO' 
 vince and lay before the 
 
 
 ilttU 
 
 NATtON.tt. fJMtmV^ 
 
 CANA0A 
 
 ■flHJU'llfftQUE NATIONALE 
 
 try at the earliest possible moment 
 a statement of the financial affairs 
 as they existed. He believed this was 
 usual when changes of Government took 
 place; and it would have been only justice 
 to the late government under any circum- 
 stances; but in view of the serious charges 
 made during the past year, of reckless and 
 dishonest management, it became partic- 
 ularly desiraoie in the opinion of this Gov- 
 ernment that they should have auditors 
 appointed to go over the books and see 
 exactly the position they were in. Now 
 he was free to say that, while many 
 charges had been made through the pub- 
 lic press and otherwise, with reference to 
 the affairs of the Province, he had 
 thought that considerable exaggera- 
 tion had been made; but he re- 
 gretted to add that his experience 
 since he entered upon the duties of pro- 
 vincial treasurer, bad convinced him that 
 this was not the case, but the actual state 
 of affairs would justify, if not all, almost 
 all the statements made with reference to 
 how the business had been managed. The 
 Grovemment found it very difficult indeed 
 to make an audit, for the reason ^hat 
 the 
 
 BOOKS WERE so FAR BEHIND 
 
 that it took a great deal of time to write 
 them up in order to be able to deal with 
 some matters which it was particularly 
 desired to deal with at the earliest pos- 
 sible moment. He desired to read a por- 
 tion of two reports received from the au- 
 ditors, dated April 19th, as follows:— 
 
 Winnipeg, 4th April, 1888. 
 Sir,— We have the honor to hand you here- 
 with statements showing the amounts at 
 credit of Common Law Snits, and tho amounts 
 paid into tlie Court of Queen's Bench ' equity) 
 with interest to the 16th January, lt~ " also a 
 statement of interest credited to the banlc ac- 
 count of Mr. G. H. Wallcer. Prothonotary, for 
 which he has not accounted. 
 We have etc., 
 (Sd) John McDonald, \ Special 
 Alex. Moffat, / Auditors. 
 Statement of interest credited to the Bank 
 account of Mr. ft. H. Walker, Prothonotary, 
 and not accounted for. 
 Nov. 30, 1882, Interest on ace. from 24th 
 
 March, 1882 f 35 30 
 
 May 31, 1883, Interest on aoc. from 24th 
 
 Nov., 1882 139 10 
 
 Nov. 30, 1883, Interest on ace. from t31at 
 II llllinri lifliU 216 00 
 
 Kitfitm 
 
fi*'. 
 
 |toreat on aoo. from 30th 
 
 [ 909 90 
 
 ttterest on ace. froin'sist 
 
 *-ij » T"*^ nnaccounted for 11 ios ih 
 
 nf 91,159 00 
 
 lngweobrJ.^«H fU'^T^""* ^^""^ forthoom- 
 Bllnatii?S n^^K**® ?>°^« statement over the 
 Bank. ^''^ Manager of the Imperii 
 
 Tho XT T Winnipeg, 19th April, 1888 
 ^ The Hon. Lyman M. Jones.' Proyffif &. 
 
 g^Sd* to to1»*'cm,rt nfl??" ^ '•ePort. with re- 
 
 IS V^^^^^^^^^ ^nfo^m^d'VIM 
 
 iJa«lw Carey, then Prothonotary. took «ie 
 
 S?^hl"*Z^y withhim when he ctS^ed to mcu 
 py the office of Prnt.hnnntA..v „„ *i." ^Ltt™. 
 
 2 
 
 f^^3^« different departmente to And a 
 &^Vo°fS?" whictto start to audit 
 the books with any certainty that the re- 
 
 ?«f"= "5*5 ^"•<'* ^^^ flnisliedr ft WM 
 
 bn^?h«*.l''-i?? •**> "i"*® or four years, 
 but the auditors found It impoeslble to 
 
 w«T«o/'\tS.*lf' P^l?*' beaSiS^bookS 
 mmi 1882-85 the bank account of the^urt 
 ?L^"®*51' ^?°*=b ^'^ J^ept to the Mmeof 
 i^?E^^«H°^' ^?'*'« which he drew 
 out accrued interest amountinff to ftl 450 
 and appUed it to himself. & tost^w 
 ^ou(f give some idea of the difflcul^ot 
 
 SS.*^.r?S* {?'' t" J"****- As to the S 
 tlon of the books found by himself 
 
 Dv thn Tifltno 'AJ^iii^'X **""" '*^ ceasea to occu- 
 tfi«>«.2v**.°' Prothonotary, on the ground 
 hlmiif* ^^^ ^'«™ purohaaSd and i»Id*to "by 
 Mrty ■Thil^?!l^''«°"y ¥.8 0^ Privat^pro- 
 St thn r^»fJ^? *^ "i* ™eans, therefore, of getting 
 ^ exJS? 1?£** ^^ payments during that pe?i- 
 od except by recoverfaig the booki from Mf. 
 
 WM wSf^'^'J?"^ continued to the 2l8t June 
 ed ft^^i****^*™.t«have been disTOntinn- 
 ™',*»" recommenced on the Ist January iSS 
 ^te^^'A^f^^^ April. 1881, o^ffih d^ 
 «ifl i7« 01 *l?°Kether, and shows a balance of 
 on'he ;2J;,iJ^i''?K^'*S'^'^ ^ tb« balance^cK 
 Prnfhn w"* *** ^^^ ^^^^' «' *»» the hands of toe 
 in'the'rsh^1f'*°"°*'''«^ ""^ depo8it«appS? 
 Should it be decided to have 
 
 M^^'^^u^?* it °\ay be g^md n^ss^ry 
 
 IN HIS OWN DEPABTMBNT 
 
 the Statement that had been made was 
 quite correct, that from oSer"t£ iS^ 
 to January ist, l887,a period of 15 monffi 
 ?^i°SLli°«l* ^S^'y h«l been made InX 
 
 Ce'^ite? 'th«*"r.^ department 
 oJ[ji! «^?r ,'°e Ist of January, 
 and before the 1st of July entries wCTeaSt 
 up, so that at the end of theyeartt^ 
 WM brought down what puraorted tob^ 
 «o*e«t8tatement, but d,5togff ^riod 
 
 AnH^" w I'fheque books or otherTemo™ 
 Sl^ kP® J^ W' *be House would a^ 
 ffl & ^\^ *°y business firms £ept 
 their books in the same manner, itwonld 
 
 £± ^ "^y months-heXSht n^t flf - 
 teen months-unless they hafverv lar«e 
 
 te Snafus? r^*.1L- from the 1st of July 
 last untU the 15th of January, althoujrh 
 the deMrtment was provided wiSta 
 have a new set of "'eautiful cash-book, specially made «i«r« 
 igust 1872. it il very Z^ ""f * ?*?«'« entry*^ it fer this "pffi 
 found necessary ti of nearly eight months. In order to maS^ 
 SfA^l^ber, 1.881, the entries in writinir un th« £S2'i^™*S? 
 
 continue them to the 9th Decemb^ YsSi' fiTI 
 
 Wa imnri^uv.^® balance of court funds then in 
 fvfn^i. n,« ' although we have no means of verl- 
 MrtelflSSf? °'£Sf ^ '■^»°««. or abco^t- 
 mfntlon«^^l^?.'K"°? ^t'«*esn it and the above 
 ?««?K^.*^^ book balance of ai9.47&9l el 
 re^rds &n°*''^S^"Sb the details Sfthecou? 
 reooras. so. The only bank cash bonk fnnn^ 
 
 d?^X««Vi.^^bave also checked the with^ 
 PrJvtoS?fT<rS°* 'ound them to correspond. 
 
 "We hkverikc.r"""""' ''^'- 
 
 (Sd.) John McDonald 1 ~ 
 
 <Sd.) Alex. MoaSt.'}Speolal Auditors. 
 
 Hon, Lyman M. Jones 
 
 Provincial Treasurer.^'*^* '*•*'•■•• 
 
 enWes/in-^wrirw up the bSSk K'^I 
 took chanw of the departmentlt wa« 
 nbSf'*^ Kf^ backto thesto&of ThS 
 cheque books which had been <»ref uHv 
 preserved by the deputy trewraM^DuK 
 tog thepast 3J months, klo^wlth a alreS 
 
 w&Sr^'?.*" P"^*5^8 LeftelationS 
 without extra assistance, the books hart 
 
 we^rSaW«?^^h"P «?til the Go^SSLeS? 
 were able to have a statement laid before 
 the provincial treasurer eveS flfK 
 ^^'^Si^^^ »togle account that hM 
 W^dairoughtheWsuryof C pro^ 
 tace. (Applause.) He mentioned thlsto 
 
 u y ,^?.t the books of the deoartmenV 
 
 IN THE AUDIT OFFICJB 
 
 about the same state of aflSiirs was founrt 
 The appropriation book keptbv th« ""Jhu 
 
 the h^ilrii^.? T*"^ impprtaiit book'ii, 
 tne Dullding, because the auditor wai» 
 supTOsed tolJe appointed bv the Wn,^ 
 His^ties were FiSS dS?n % sStuS?H 
 ji^Bcas. s»i3r.-« early necessary that he 
 aUow any account to pass 
 
 i y 
 
 S"^: 
 
 «• 
 
X^J 
 
 d 
 
 I 
 
 i 
 
 i\ 
 
 i 
 
 throiu;li unless there was a proper vouch- 
 er. But the appropriation book was not 
 written up for months up to the date of 
 the present Kovemment taking office; and 
 the reason given for this wm that the 
 
 «2S? wl°*" ««c«>d^« the appropriations 
 early in the year was not great, and be- 
 
 ;£!fK*°^***?8®^ H«8® *t wasproposed that 
 the Irooks should be caught up. It was 
 
 »«"°^i,»'^*'^i?**!7 *^ OKler to write 
 up these books not to take In- 
 «^*"«" contained in the auditor's 
 own office, but to go *<» the treasurer's 
 Office and ask him to hand over the oriiri. 
 nal vouchers, as authorities far the issues 
 of cheques. I* the appropriation book or 
 any other in the auditor's department 
 was a necessity, It must be before the 
 vouchers reach the treasurer's office. 
 
 om?^ 7^«iJ"* " *?J department is made 
 out in triplicate; the department keeps 
 A^tu^^I' *°? *S? orlriniil and the other 
 k«fSt5***?.*\® *"?"°'5 the auditor 
 $!?P1??.® A"P".?»'*« ao*' "ends theorlgi- 
 nal, wltl. the cheque, to the department 
 of the treasurer; the latter signs 
 the cheque, and the voucher is filed 
 away in tfie vault, and is the only author- 
 ity the treasurer has for Issuinsthe 
 cheque. He (Hon. Mr. Jones) found that 
 the cheques and vouchers of the treas- 
 urer's department had been handed ba^ 
 to the auditor s department, where vouch- 
 w« for about a quarter of a million doUars 
 Zt^^^}l^^ °S the floor.desks and bencheaj 
 where tiiey had been for weeks without 
 any protection from Are or destruction 
 
 ♦sT'k'^^?*®' «»«se»- With reference to 
 the bank account, when he 
 
 ^^^f ?'*j?^ '^/o" cheques mailed to 
 parties in different parts 0} the Province 
 were presented for nayment: and the Gov- 
 
 ^K^*°M°^®*7<^«rto hol4 some of the 
 cheques thev found outstanding, and to 
 
 F^r^' W «?"*°8 *o **»« bank too swE^ 
 stUl a sufficient amount did come in t<J 
 make it necessary for him to arrange for 
 a 10^ on his own private security to oro- 
 tect the credit of the Province, -f he (W 
 »^?UTfu t°4°"* that it should not 
 lf,»-i^^^*^ cheques had already been 
 5!^S'**'y**'®^*°^' a» " would in ac- 
 fh?«^**n* "^fl^ctlon against them that 
 f^t^®»T pojemment'8 credit was short- 
 l!i?d' '^r^K ">«? «>"ld not go on for a fort- 
 night. Thus It became necessary 
 
 TO PBOTBCT THK CBBDIT 
 
 ASKED TO SEE THE BANK BOOK 
 
 he could not have it handed to him to 
 turn up and see what the balance was: It 
 was stated that there was no bankbook 
 kept in proper shape, , for the reason that 
 thev were a long way behind with their 
 cash and the bMik refused to handler 
 the ohequebv When they desired to know 
 
 L^^*ii:H*°*?? ^*5 t'^ey telephoned 
 down to the bank; and if the message 
 camethat there waa 810.000, or «20,000rSr 
 «30,000 to credit, cheques were issued. 
 When the bank said that the funds were 
 exhausted, thev had to make a deiwsit ot 
 some other arrangement by which thn 
 t«mk would be ablfto telepL^ uj tSt 
 there was a balance available. With 
 m^K^f^ "^® temporary arrangement 
 made by the present Government, it had 
 been stated In some papers,and truthfully, 
 too. that about the flret thing this Govern- 
 
 ^f^ii^^iT^ J? '^™*'*: ™oney- He ad- 
 mitted that it was the Hmt thlni^ th-i' 
 tnea, out fchey did not succeed wlthonl^ 
 considerable cBfflculty. Thevf^tiS ?J; 
 thelrcredit $6.000*^r«6.000r%r 'Sb& 
 •10,000; but against that cheques Had been 
 Issued and^ad gone out, so that 5 
 these arrived at the tank to be 
 cashed, the Government would owe 
 «fi^*^'"^ <"" «3.000. Hence pr^Ti! 
 82 So ™ mSS^' ^ overdrawn by about 
 f4Wn or 13,000. Sometimes twoo* three 
 
 -L^f^"*r^'*,P'l^*te^y iintll somear- 
 rangement couia be made. They found 
 nr**H^ti^^^ Provincial Treasurer, Hon. 
 £. fKf^'v"',?**,"*^ *n application 
 to the baiJc for a loan, and on 
 entering the department he (Hon. Mr 
 
 h25®^ '^'^"^ .^»^"»« appli^tlon 
 h^ been renewed by the present leader of 
 Uie Government, who had charge of the 
 department mitil he (Hon. Mrfjines) «.! 
 turned from Ontario. Therefore heTnon. 
 ml;i«te?^ followed up the application 
 made by his raedecessors, within three or 
 four davs. and found hliliself In the posl- 
 ftS^ ?L r^'^d? ™®' "^^^^ » ^'"ct refusal 
 ^^°^^^u"^,*** "5"*°* the Government, 
 any further loans. The reasons kIvmi 
 
 S2^o5'"f1"**« near past, and S! 
 «^„^? 5^5*"SS.?"*» madeTlt was not 
 thought desirable to grant anv further 
 credS without some furSSFseSS^ity ffi^ 
 TT.1a2^®™™®"J^ appeared able t6 give. 
 This was an awkward position for a new 
 t^P"""; ant having^beenreKd°hl 
 applied in Eastern Canada, where he was 
 
 ^'S'l^ J"'' ^°"'«*»' Institution^ 
 m™*^*^®^ assurances which enableii 
 him to draw what he needjjd pending a 
 
 ^f?« *^u°?£™2°*-. He dIsciiMed the 
 matter with the banks here, and Anally 
 S.t?? ^ arrangement with the Mereh- 
 ^i^„«Ti?°*i. ^^'^^ compared favor- 
 ably with the arrangement of the late 
 Government during the Arst half of 
 
 ^LFf^^i ^?S*' y«^' The late Govern- 
 ment found themselves out of money 
 about the Arst of AugUQt last year Nat 
 n?^f„*?«""**?^*'**^ '^y had'il^ived the 
 
 J*mSfc?l?''?'?™i'?^ »"'»«*<'? o' over 
 8200,000 on the let of July, on the 5th of 
 
 ;^«^fc^*y found thatit bid been expended; . 
 andfliey required to negoHata a Iqmi t^ 
 5^*^*/£hants'Bank on the 6th of Auttiist 
 1887. of 8100,000 "That loan was to^JS? 
 them through the Aret half of the Ascal 
 S!^{/! "?*" January when the subsidy 
 would M;ain arrive; amounting to 8200.000 
 
 odd, anf they would be ablTtore'pay" it 
 S^ mJde **' ^owevefTthat 
 
 A SLIGHT MISCALOULATION; 
 
 and on the 15th of October they made a 
 

 ^ «N ^ m;.." " W N Jfa 
 
 -IV-*— 
 
 further application tor •100,000 1^ ottty 
 ♦h«inS;hrouKh the balance o( the year. 
 The^sucSXd In making «»»t loan, and 
 he (&oS: Mr. Jones) wouflTUke to compare 
 It wUh the arrangement made by hlmseW. 
 On the 9th ofNOTember the tonowing let- 
 ter was 8^t by the late Provincial Trea- 
 JSirertotCMMiager of the Mercbante' 
 
 Bank:— w,jjnipko. 9th November, 1887. 
 am -I bog to hereWith enclose cejtifled 
 
 ?3?^«remt^ to our general account, but a 
 
 H»iJr.'jii'Sf«S 
 
 Wti'Mpt^of Mi '^SiSSPei^i^tS 
 ur tonk. TWaoommlBnion tobeapart from 
 *e InteJ^t already allowed under the statute. 
 
 <Sgd) 
 
 made by theoresent «o'«m?«»* ?*■ *5S 
 they should pay six P®' ««°i'.P?' 
 annum only, and to receive «"> »'^« 
 rate of Interest on moneys deiKwited 
 and standing to their credit at the end of 
 Schnwnth that they paj on overdrafts. 
 He was Jtlad to say that the bank did not 
 ^ ItTwayclear. or did not have the gall 
 tTaSeptSie offer of the late government, 
 £ra%arged8evenp«wntunmonth. 
 Iv baluices. and notwithstanding tne 
 gjveroment's attempt to get ten ^pw. ce^t 
 fnto the bank they failed because Jbe bank 
 refused to take the money. (Applaase 
 and laughter.) The late governmeht of 
 Mursewcelved the subsidy the first of the 
 ^b^having such a hurge loan almost 
 InKy exhausted, theyTiad but little 
 iSttSn left. They seemed, however, to 
 h^made a spedkl calculation tolook 
 after themselves, ««d possibly some of 
 tiheir friends, before this lowi of J10O,O0O 
 was entirely exhausted. In a con- 
 Sdlrable number of Instaiges they 
 paid salaries for which they 
 
 ,he nreviouB io»n v- *iw>"w "" •"" 
 
 A. A, C.' LaBivikbb. 
 Provincial Treasurer. 
 
 "• ^S^i&ante Bank. Winnipeg. 
 
 Doubtless every member of "je ^?*? 
 was aware what the act "Siy* ^l^^*^ ™*»/: 
 Tn" TSJe powers of the dav«^mentto 
 
 Sr^ Kio^30?eifsKorP'^' 
 
 ?Srm*^8uXlmounte payable at such perio^ 
 inTbiSttagsuXratSbf Interest, not exceed 
 
 Mtoto oii^^t they cannot pay legally 
 mcSTthanSx per cent interest. The lef- 
 KXlate pSivindal V«|«u«r i«tol^^^ 
 
 out that that was wmia-, "-rV •^' Jn; 
 Sver the law he ptopoeed to f 11^« ajdi- 
 fcional Interest a bonus. If that wouia 
 eStS law, he (Hon. Mr. Jones) did 
 not to^ why we should have imy law at 
 Si The bonus offered amounted Ut four 
 Sei cent additional after paying six per 
 Kinte^t. making the total Interest 
 nald by the late government during the 
 SSiod mentioned exactly ten per cent per 
 jSSi (Applause). The arrangement 
 
 RECKIVED NO RBTUBN— 
 
 salaries for one, two or three Doonths in 
 advance for which no Ubor had been per- 
 fSmed! In other cases it was found they 
 S5d but small^ amounts, Partteuljjrly 
 SSool grants. Of the g'«it of »8M00- 
 sSra 000 for public schools and ?2,0qp for 
 ^'iSivOTSty-they P«^ld In sixjmd one- 
 half months, up to Jan. 15th, only »18,000; 
 StheyhadgonJ on at th« «\Sf, "^the 
 schools would have received about *34.000 
 'thteyear. The present GovemDMnt had 
 found it necessary to pay already f31,000 
 to schools during the three months since 
 SeTtSSkolflce?Ifthe late Government 
 did not pay to the schools all they were 
 ^titled to pay, they chequed out to them- 
 Bdves theif eilaries whl^ were not due 
 up to the date of their resignation, 
 amoMting to «518. Hon. Mr. Norouay 
 SveXw^ds ^160; Hon. Mrj,l^lv. 
 iere 838: Hon. Dr. Harrison, $130; Hon. 
 D^'WiSon, ?100; Hon. Mr. Hamilton, 
 ftlOO. a^d' W Mr. Burke (laugh- 
 ter) »100. Some of the amounte 
 named, it is true, were smaU; 
 and if. under ordinary circumstances, 
 amanwrhadbeeninpubUc Utel6orl7 
 years had only overdrawn his salwy tW. 
 It would seem a very small matter; but 
 thrprinciple underlyingttie small amount 
 was the same as un^r a Iwge amount. If 
 it was proper to overdraw «eO. it was pro- 
 Mr to overdraw 8500; and, if so, why not 
 SB 000 or 85.000,000? Gentlemen occupying 
 fichhSh and'honorable positions could 
 ««* a^eenrA to «et such an example. 
 "Hon.'Mr:'Prendergast l»«e interrupwa 
 the speaker with the remark that he had 
 been reported to have agreed to share the 
 safwyoTthe tate provln5al secwtanr; but 
 it now appeared that the latter had sliared 
 his (Hon. Bfa. Prendergasfs) salary. (Ap- 
 plause and laughter.) , . . . ^ . „„ „ 
 Mr. Norouay observed that so long as 
 one of Uietwo^had got .the money It was 
 immaterial which one had It. 
 
8 
 
 oaent was that 
 r cent, pe' 
 Ive the same 
 lys deposited 
 at the end of 
 o& overdrafts, 
 bank did not 
 ; have the gall 
 » government, 
 cent on month- 
 atanding the 
 it ten per cent 
 cause tne bank 
 ey. (Applause 
 ;ovemmetit of 
 ' the first of the 
 oe loan almost 
 
 had but little 
 (d, hovirever, to 
 ilation to look 
 Msibly some of 
 loan of 9100.000 
 .. In a con- 
 instances they 
 
 which they 
 
 XJEN— 
 
 hree months in 
 r had been per- 
 was found they 
 B, particularly 
 uit of $85,000- 
 and 92,000 for 
 i in six and one- 
 ith, only f 18,000; 
 e same rate the 
 ed about $34,000 
 Government had 
 r already $31,000 
 3tt months since 
 ate Government 
 Is all they were 
 ued out to them- 
 b were not due 
 leir resisnation, 
 i. Mr. Norquay 
 Hon. Mr. LaBiv- 
 [son, $130; Hon. 
 Mr. Hamilton, 
 Burke (lauRh- 
 the amounts 
 were small; 
 ' circumstances, 
 tublic life 16 or 17 
 n his salary S60, 
 aall matter; but 
 the small amount 
 lance amount. If 
 v$60. it was pro- 
 id, if so, why not 
 ktlemen occupying 
 e positions could 
 example, 
 here interrupt«a 
 nark that he bad 
 greed to share the 
 ^ secretary; but 
 ) latter had shared 
 kst's) salary. (Ap- 
 
 [that so long as 
 the money it was 
 adit. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Jones replied that it might be 
 immaterial if the money had to be paid 
 only once, but the present provincial sec- 
 retary bad made application for his salary 
 covering the same period of time. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Jones next proceeded to dis- 
 cuss 
 
 THB SUPPLBMENTARY E8TIMATB8 
 
 for the present fiscal year. He called at- 
 tention to an additional amount of $100 
 per member for 33 members for sessional 
 allowance in addition to the $000 provided 
 in the estimates of last year. This in- 
 crease was on account of the prolonged 
 session and frequent trips of members to 
 the oitv to attend to their duties. Besides 
 this, tfie House was asked to vote $1,200 
 for two members who were not in the 
 House when the session first opened, 
 namely, the member for North Dufferin 
 and the member for Shoal Lake; the House 
 was asked to vote for them $600 each, less 
 the amounts drawn by their predecessors 
 before they left the Provinee. The total 
 of the supplementary estimate for legisla- 
 tion was $4,018. Other items in the total 
 of $14,000 for supplementary estimates in- 
 cluded, in the treasury department $11,- 
 000, made up almost entirely of interest 
 on account of the larger amounts that had 
 to be borrowed during the year; also $2,- 
 200 for refund of wholesale liquor license 
 deposits which had been in the hands of 
 tJie Government for some years. Under 
 the present law it was not necessary to 
 make deposits. For "Unforeseen and un- 
 provided," there was estimated $1,700. 
 
 In the next place Hon. Mr. Jones pro- 
 posed to state as shortly as possible about 
 what position the Iroviuce would be 
 in at the end of June, and what amounts 
 of money would be required on the let of 
 July to pay up the several accounts the 
 Province would have to meet in order to 
 be entirely olearx)f debt: Amount due 
 the Lands' Titles office, $^700; Ckiurt of 
 Queen's Bench, equity side, trust funds 
 which the late Government took over 
 when they ran short, $26,600; Court of 
 Queen's Bench, common law side. $6,000; 
 wholesale license deposits, $2,260; un- 
 claimed monies. $311.17: Manitoba & 
 Northwestern railway debenture account, 
 $fi@2.40; Manitoba Southwestern Coloniza- 
 tion Railway debentures, $11,027.25. These 
 were monies held in trust by the Govern- 
 ment pending the time when the railway 
 aid bonds would become due. There was 
 also included in the statement as a 
 
 Brobable liability the claim of Joseph Wil- 
 ams for a baUmce dueon theconstruction 
 of the Brandon court house ftnd jail, $2,- 
 
 oo<.ua; naix-ureeu uuaut a riuiu, ^li}j.,&ji.a£i. 
 
 It was l^e intention of the present Gov- 
 ernment to pay the amount of the fund as 
 it beciune due and take the lands as an 
 asset. It was not thought possible in the 
 near future to get for the lands any con- 
 siderable amount of money; a very large 
 portion had already been paid. There 
 was to be added bank overdrafts, $76,- 
 238.62, and estimated expenditure over 
 
 entimated revenue for the months of May 
 and June, 1888, $30,020.8d, making a net 
 total of $263,683.03; hesides which there 
 was the interest to Ist July, 1888, on Hud- 
 son's Bay Railway bonds, for which the 
 Province has no security, $19,226.40. To 
 this was to be added a probable outlay of 
 $86,000 in order to put the road in such 
 shape as would enable the Province to get 
 the security of the lands. 
 
 THB TOTAL LIABILITY 
 
 of the Government, to pay up everything, 
 and replace trust funds, was $317,009.iH. 
 Hon. Mr. Jones regretted that time had 
 not permitted him to go into the question 
 of the assets of the Province as f ullv as he 
 would have desired: but he would sive 
 what he thought might properly be called 
 assets, which were as follows: Capital 
 account, $3,311,014.77. Manitoba & North- 
 western R. R., interest, $61,252.11; M. S. 
 W. Col. R. R., do, $239.67; H.B.Bm $12,- 
 818.40; Legislative Buildings and Govern- 
 ment House, $284,456: Lands Titles build- 
 ing,etc., $18,000; Lombard street property, 
 $^000; Main street property, $13,000; 
 marsh lands reclaimed 112,3^ acres, $2 
 per acre, $224,640; swamp lands, 70,^ 
 acres, $35,410, with additional amount 
 not yet properly handed over 
 20.180, estimated at 50 cents per acre 
 which is probably too low an estimate, 
 $60,000; halfbreed infants' lands obtained 
 by foreclosure of mortgage, $20,760; half- 
 breed infants' lands covered with mn<l- 
 gages still current, $13,640. The tota. es- 
 timates placed on lands at present am- 
 ounted to $34,300, which showed a very 
 large loss to the province, which would 
 possibly bA lessened by keeping the lands 
 foraconr arable time. At present he 
 chotight i.v amount given the outside 
 estimate. T ^e lunatic asylum building 
 
 grounds, etc., value, $106,794.35; expended 
 1 new wing, 89,590; total. $116,384.35; 
 eastern Judiouil district board, $7,220; to- 
 tal assets, $4,139,226.22. Last year the 
 amount was estimated at $6,000,000. The 
 estimate given was exclusive of school 
 lands and whatever money there might be 
 in the B. R. V. R. 
 
 The next point discussed was what the 
 present Government had done with refer- 
 ence to 
 
 FLOATING THB LOAN 
 
 of$l,500,000, as authorized by the House 
 during the present session. Upon enter- 
 ing the Gruvernment as Provincial Treas- 
 urer it seemed to him under the peculiar 
 circumstances in wtilch the Grovemment 
 found themselves, that the first duty de- 
 volving upon him was, if possible, to make 
 
 such SuSnci^ off auKCulcuts as WOUld cu~ 
 
 able the Government at the earliest possi- 
 ble moment to carry out the undertaking 
 of the late Government, to build the B. R. 
 y. B., which was incompleted for want of 
 funds. It appeared to himself and liis 
 colleagues and to Manitobans generally, 
 that if the late Government had had at 
 their credit sufficient funds, the difflcul- 
 I ties of theconstruction of the road last 
 
placed In*!; ^7we?^al^S„ifeH"''"°"» 
 vont our success In «.5^ 15?*?'^ ^ P'^' 
 
 moneys aST o her SLo^*°«h-*:; /^« 
 't seemed his 5iV?^^ There/ore 
 
 certain persoM «J£?. ^*J^ quietly with 
 would be able to mrke?hi'\"l*"«'»t he 
 •rrangement! I^dS rt^Si.^*' Possible 
 stances he did not f Mr.?^"*"* clrcom- 
 been warrantBH^n ^i)™^ ^^ ^o«W have 
 
 information comini ivl «.« « °' *°® '*«t of 
 their taWnS hoTd o?/h„*^,®°^?™ment on 
 
 in vie^fX difflJuftte? ™«?'.?"l??' ^"'^ 
 Government, it swm^ ^K^^ *'»'^ -**« 
 would have nrev^^^ ^ ^"l 'hatit 
 view had they ^Mked^nKiV*? ?*«««<= « 
 and had It blLffiJn^Cm ^h^f °«'«"' 
 they expected to iMtTh« ^? ^*** source 
 time the cominiT!?f«i?f ™°°®y' -^t the 
 they l4lfevXhy''SS°°^!r«r« «P«ned 
 as disallowance wafr™-°'^'®* 8" '»*• 
 meet them, as wistod u2?T'**'*i "^^"^^ 
 baUeved tlUr^'S^Xe'ZZTiti^^'^ 
 
 6 
 
 ino™tng?'^'nl"^^« ho^yndica^g* reply thl« 
 
 bank, and o'mZ&^^^'^, - Sa,tujay al, 
 
 FoUowing that w*« ^,'J- Drummond. 
 which no 4lywLfb"nd^i' '•'««'»'°; *<> 
 
 .d'Si.'roS^JS?.''^^,'?. WlnnW results. 
 
 or wm you be 
 
 to make some references h«V« 7;?»S?*"*° 
 
 to place it bS tile it A.^^^^ 
 
 had been stated by Sntl?meno5*?h-?? " 
 ernment side, thaf f h» li? °r?** "*® Gov- 
 
 did not undertaitin i it*« Government 
 
 he would "hew tnfh^ before him or not ; 
 fall whe?e they mav^* tIM* *»»« chlp4 
 to was as foSo w™^* ^''^ ^®'*«'' referred 
 
 The nAirf *•«!-. ^' DRUMMOND. 
 
 To Hon. A. A. C. Laft™?"*^' '« J^^o. 1887. 
 
 change, sfida lafflrsf?.'Jfy 5^;»'• ofEx- 
 treal or New York. AhS^l,, fi ^' delfi'ery Mon- 
 your reply ImmSuatel^ "**'^ "^""a^y; get 
 
 The renlv^S^L- u ^- '^- »kummond. 
 ine reply to the above was as follows:- 
 
 lum. Money rad&B«,*^° *"*l,* half prem- 
 
 No «omml4on chassis 5?^3*i,?t P?f ™te- 
 
 .da^and mo„ey'^K« ISr^"- 
 
 money 
 (Sgd) 
 
 Bonds anc 
 
 New York, 
 
 A. A. C. LaRiviere. 
 
 To Hon. A. A. O lJytA^7^^^k^^P^ 18th, 1887. 
 ^^^. A. u. lARivlere, Provincial 'treas- 
 
 grom Montreal. 
 w|ff 'ffl,r^o,fa»« to two or three 
 
 This teiAim.». *«li . "^ T.T)RCMMOND. 
 
 aoth, taSS tW '^^l"* "»« «««of the 
 
 t«alwSbi^^?»'^SewWLl^ V 
 cause the Govemm«rS £1^ ""^ anxious be- 
 
 officially hfsprSSS n^.?*' accepted 
 the agent WrbtoW/f~ 9l*^ same date 
 
 inJbe^^KptevX'pP"'^"'" hav. 
 da^s X?it?ame iL'?ha®?',tj:^«»t t^o 
 gram was sent t^odlySlaS!*'''^ *«^«- 
 
 To Hon. A. A. C. &rtS!^' ^ /«"«• 1887. 
 urer: ^"Ivlere, Provtadal Treas- 
 
 S]rom Montreal, 
 
 uuti Biatement 
 expenditures. 
 
 Onthe'Ln^^f T ■^- T. Drummond. 
 wwslntSfJu^V?"" »°other teleg«m 
 
 Tr-._ . MONTRniT <M_j T 
 
 ">ti^f«^.^«^^*««^Si^^^r. 
 ^notom&yt^^^^^J^ndon that you 
 
 R98e & CoTour offer •te'*?'" ^ Morfon. 
 Kmdly do so. ^bls is Important! 
 
 Pour davs laS"* u"^* '^' ^«u«mond. 
 
 • 1' 
 
 #1 
 
 tl 
 
 tl 
 tl 
 m 
 m 
 b( 
 
 0€ 
 
 er 
 
• ■' 
 
 . I 
 
 d 1 
 
 i 
 
 «„„„„ . . „ MoNTRBATWune 88th, 1887. 
 ^r : <'-:i*R«vlere.t>rovlnolarTroa8- 
 
 JSR,l5iSf "*°° PurpoHes of loan. Our people 
 reluctantly compelfed withdraw. Am wHtlng" 
 (8d.,) A. T. DiiuMMONu. 
 On the next da> the followleg letter was 
 
 Fraaor BulldinKS, St. Sacramen* Street, 
 Hnn A A ri T „,MONTRKAL. 27 June, 1887. 
 wi^„.,; ^' i*Rlviere,Provlnoial Treasurer 
 vvinnlpeg, Man. 
 
 Oo^™n?i!ir'«^,* •» say that the Dominion 
 fJ?„.fJ??i°'J*'...^'P°»''"y advised our London 
 whi«h it?- ". «"8«I>Prove8 of the purposea for 
 fH»«^. *"f *i°^" is obtained, and that our 
 m«J?f''^U^*''i*'"il ^'^^^ *ho Dominion Oovorn- 
 task to float the loan, and that they must with- 
 rJS^„* f?."'* A^l"®"^- ^ .have not yet received 
 ^f/J* ^^'^ '^*'* ''"'*«'■ which the loan is to be 
 
 A month and four daje after the loan 
 pad been arranged for by telnrram be- 
 tween Mr. Drummond and Hon. Mr. La- 
 Klvlere, the latter wrote aa foUowa:— 
 
 Sib- tk-»» Winnipeg, aoth July. 1887. 
 inr»-^":iSS?i'i**='^'*"'y?l»<'?" receipt of your 
 letters of Mnd June and 2nd July, roapcotively 
 ™ yo""" offter for the purchase of the Provin- 
 clikl bonds In accordance with your proposi- 
 tion, and in answer have to state that I roifrot 
 iS?iTL i.^°S w/" thoroughly acquainted 
 with the situation. I cannot understand that 
 you should now claim to have been dooolved 
 and if yoiir friends in London have refused to 
 oonnrni that oifor. I cannot see how you can 
 £ri!? ■S^^**'i»if '"«■ yo""" trouble and as stated 
 i/tf^.^f^vl'Ffi'^''^"'*/''* his reply to your 
 letter. I think that tlic Province has a good 
 
 raised. 
 
 (Sgd) 
 
 A. T. Drumhond. 
 
 ,.'iffiP??f®** '••**^ **»« Government did 
 not think it necessary, even yet, that the 
 Official papers should reach the ajtent in 
 Montreal. Theapent, it appeared, nubse- 
 quently presented an account for his ser- 
 I^«^ claiming, the speaker thought, 
 »20 000 commission. In reply to a letter 
 making the demand the ibllowing was 
 written:— 
 
 a.= TV * Winnipeg, 12th July, 1887. 
 
 8IR.— I have to acknowledge the receipt of 
 your favor of the &»d Inst. In which yon ino- 
 rnate that you look to this Governinont to re- 
 imburse your expenses incurred in attemptinir 
 to carry through a loan on its behalf. 
 
 Iwa«under the Impression that you were 
 P*!t**'lfy.*'^"f,? o'the probability of tho act 
 authorizing the loan being disaUowed, and 
 that your offer was made wfth the f uU knowl- 
 edge of the circumstances under which the 
 bonds were to be issued, and that when you In 
 formed Mr. LaBlvlere that you would take the 
 bonds at 21 premium, and hevrtred you back 
 that your offer was accepted he was under the 
 impression that the matter was closed : and 
 
 NOTWIT8TANDINO SUB8BQUENT 0FKKR8 WERK 
 RBCKIVBD ONE OF WHICH WAS REALLY BETTER 
 THAN YOURS, THEY WK) . JOLINED IN THE BE- 
 LIEF THAT YOU WOULD ,1. UP TO 'THAT WE 
 WERE LED TO BELIEVE , j. J YOUR INTENTION 
 
 AND PURTOBB, by the telegrams which convey- 
 ed to us your last offer. 
 
 Under «be o.rcumstances I think that the 
 damages Ifany.arejustly due to the Govern- 
 ment, for after having concluded 1p aU good 
 faith an arrangement with you, we are subse- 
 quenUy, without any reason, informed that the 
 offbr was withdrawn simply because the Fed- 
 tntl i.??L®'P™?S*^ disapproved of the loan, 
 ■w^h|ch? think will be helS by tho courts to b^ 
 no Justification for the breach of engagement 
 by yourself and friends . "Botsoiuom 
 
 I have the honor to be 
 ,„ ., Your obedient servant, 
 (Sgd) John Norquay. 
 
 On the 20th of July Mr. Drummond 
 wrote a letter from Montreal, of which 
 tne following is an excerpt : — 
 
 *K ■^'' 'i.^'' f-he Dominion Uovemmant took 
 thfjS*?'^®"L°PP*"^'>'»li5; hy cable to object to 
 their legality, and with such a power in the 
 market against them no London firms oonld 
 Mpect anything but failures in floating the 
 
 XS^« -ii^-^^ ^ ^J^'^^, yo" -We were roluotanUy 
 compeUed by the action of the Dominion Gov- 
 ernment to withdraw." 
 
 by the Hon, Mr. Norquay in his roi 
 letter. I think that tlic Province lm» u koou 
 claim against vou for not carrying out your 
 proposition. Our bonds have not been issued 
 yet and wo havo.not offered them since we fail- 
 ed to c,mcl»ide with you. and I am not in a pos- 
 ition to state whatthe Government intend to do 
 later on, as we have all the money that we re- 
 quire for the time beinir. 
 
 ,_ , ^ Yours truly, 
 
 A T n«.^®*^-* . ,, ^•^' C- LaRivlere. 
 A. T. Drummond, Esq., Fraser BuUding, St. 
 Sacrament Street. Montreal. 
 
 The speaker desired to call attention to 
 the statements in the above, "Our bonds 
 have not been issued yet." (This was 34 
 days after the offer had been made and 
 accepted, and 27 days after it had been 
 cancelled); and "we have not offered them 
 since we failed to conclude with you;" 
 ?i"°^"' """ °^* *" * position to state what 
 the Government intend to do later on, as 
 we have all the money we require for the 
 *™»b«»n8-" Hon. Mr. Jones submitted 
 that what had frequently been stated by 
 the opponents of the late Government was 
 proved, and 
 
 MORE THAN PROVED 
 
 by tha letter he had read, that that Gov- 
 ernment had made no determined effort 
 to get the money;— (applause)— and there- 
 fore had made no effort such as was ex- 
 expected of them to complete the R. R. 
 V. R. At the time the letter was written 
 
 o^Sa%X®"*™*°* '>*^ '«* t^^® contract for 
 5780,000, in which it was agreed 
 that the road should be completed 
 ^by the 1st of October. A very large 
 portion of the money became payable 
 at an early date, because the (^vcmment 
 had agreed to pay for a large quantity of 
 material ordered by the contractors from 
 time to time. It was reasonable to ex- 
 pect that by the 20th of July a consider- 
 able amotmt of money would be asked for 
 by those furnishing the material and do- 
 ing the work. On the 1st July the (]rov- 
 ISJ?1SS* l«'d, received the subsidy of 
 ^^m,(XX} and this was all gone on the 6th 
 2£^^SSE?"*! y®* *» <*e 'ace of the fact that 
 
 the treasurer of the province writes that 
 he has all the money requked for the time 
 J»»ns' He (Hon. Mr. Jonea) had no doubt 
 that this was the case; for the purposes 
 they intended they had all the money they 
 requhred; because if they had all that was 
 necessary, if they had floated the loan, It 
 
would have bwn » »•««'»"?». *,° fStfon 
 the road, which It wm not their Intention 
 
 '"^"HrU^nce to the loan he (Hon^Mr 
 Jones) had negotiated t^e first deOmw 
 offer ho received was 101, or 0°® P«L^d 
 
 AprUTth. 
 
 Hon. Mr. arwnway. WlnnlW.--^^ Bank 
 Got Ordor-ln-OounoII «> P»i ICmountot 
 
 on the Bame day ^^^X^^Aot'^ 
 
 in usual inatalmenU. a. ^n^ y ^ „„ ted. 
 
 which, on t^S-T^t is thS P^S^n^BhSild 
 
 ffih'^'^bSSJjM^'^nl^^ 
 
 letter was written by blmsblf (Hon. nw. 
 
 Jone8)to Dr«njmond BroB.& Moffat^ o* 
 
 this city, acting agents ol a uonao 
 
 firm:— 
 
 ture oonjpl«t«f • tX ^fjgjgjrts. Have strong 
 1 5.M»er»t^ ?Snrsa.ndon." 
 
 carried o«'-./,'\%Jrp."^ince with refer- 
 
 "Feb. 29, 1888. 
 
 Re loan of f l'fiOO>*2',7L _„- conversation this 
 In accordance with our oonv^™"« j^^ 
 
 afternoon I now write tj) you » W ^n 
 Government will ';;S«°P*3*^S p?ernlura. 
 you. which was l^^/n^gPfat Wnnlpog;no 
 
 money and bonds «'^^£^"/®r-" costs af owed; 
 commisalon, or charges or ^costs ^ 
 
 Mr. Jone. read aleo the «oUowirw sent 
 en^ofa letter Jrom Dmmmond Broe. 
 and Mof&t, da.ted Feb. 28th. i„io„ 
 
 "We are now Informed ana are oi u»° f . 
 that no Mt of dlBaUowanco can affeot^^^e val^ 
 
 urer, re loan of *1,500,000: 
 
 In recelDt OfoaDie aaviuoo j y«.~---» 
 
 ?«5lVJ^U^thecoup?Srpayable half-year- 
 I'^V^VrttlWKtl Pej;?^^^^^ -nr^ 
 
 rcSmToPre«H,fe^n& 
 IS^anrtlonW M^'rt^«^'*Co.. Clientele 
 oi^ Hull The Government could not be to 
 
 DBUMM^^bBOB..& MOFFAT. 
 
 ^»^« ^il^ao's^ 85 ^"liSranSment waa 
 would be *9.m85. ineamui*^^ ^^ 
 
 *^'fSi5^r'S^le^» to Mr. Drum- 
 
 ""^cnuthorizin^loan^m^J^^^^^^^^ 
 CounoU^edmallnglnterest^a^^^^j^ 
 don;bondstobedomi<dl^inui ^^ within 
 
 five days, a ,*«rther IB §?Jtt^?^-onthel8tof 
 1 later; the baUnoe oftne nrsi i""" ^^ 
 
 tlonto 
 
 WHAT IT COST 
 
 to float them. They sold through the Im- 
 
 *^*8TBONGE8T FINANCIAL iNBTJTXmoNS 
 
 in London. B5n«Ugd WUJ^ ajewda^s 
 
 ^^aSerdrir'fffiWd.h/^^^ 
 
 «fi?n^«e'^to say hi goT^~^'the"<i«^^ be^ 
 
 financial e«^^if^.e^^ London and 
 SCwSh hfepX^S be cabled as 
 foilowB :— 
 
PMPlal bank ill.flm worth: and to the 
 8«miiiarie da St. Salplos f fiO,000, nMktng 
 ffll.ffiO: handed to Rjan &. IUney,f8B,aO(H 
 handed to lawyers on acoonnt. •8,000; 
 making a total of 91M,06O. Thf> cost ot 
 aellinfc the 961,800 worth was m follows: 
 Personal expenses of Hon. Messrs. Nor- 
 quay and LaRlviere and Mr. A. H. Ren- 
 5i®J^ Ottawa, Montreal and New York, 
 tsmoo; telegrams, •401.68: advertising, 
 •5fi982j printing, etc., •170.10; legal 
 opinion of Klngsmlll, Cattenach 
 & Symonds, re bonds, 9600; total, 
 •3,768.80. Bonds bearlngd percent-'nterest 
 cost of selling, say percent., net 04, with 
 a promise to allow further Interest to pur- 
 chaser here. 
 
 The bonds were sold bearing six per 
 cent. Interest, and netted ninety-four 
 cents on the dollar. Thla was 
 what the leader of the late Govern- 
 ment said he would havo been pre- 
 pared to take for the million dollar 
 loan, so anxious was he to complete tne 
 construction of the RR. V.B. 
 
 The total expenses of floating the loan 
 of 81.600,000 would be less than •lOO for 
 cablegrams: •600 for lithogiaphing; and 
 •600 for stamping the bonds; or a total not 
 exceeding •1,300. None ot the present 
 ministers would get a trip eastward as far 
 as Montreal or New York. On the 28rd 
 of February, 1888, the Canadian Gazette 
 stated that Manitoba five per cents were 
 quoted at Mitt on the London market. The 
 interest on coupons was payable on .Tune 
 1st and July let, and if the bonds were 
 sold on the 23rd of February the interest 
 accruing from Jan. Ist to that date added 
 to the bonds. On April 10th, less than a 
 month afterwards. Manitoba flveperoents 
 were quoted at 110 to 112, having risen 
 four per cent in less than thirtv days. 
 
 Mr. Orewry— Disallowance had in the 
 meantime been done away with. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Jones went on to say that if 
 he had been able to dxpeot that the Gov- 
 ernment would have done away with dis- 
 allowance he would not have entered into 
 these financial negotiations Just at the 
 time he did. He then believed that if the 
 money were got and the railway com- 
 pieteci, 
 
 THB K8T TO THE SITUATION 
 
 would be in the hands of the Government, 
 and disallowance would be done away. 
 (Applause.) He proceeded to read the 
 following extract from the Canadian Ga- 
 zette of January 19th :— 
 
 "Messrs. Baring Bros. & Co. on Tues- 
 day morning opened subscription lists for 
 £750.000, Canadian Pacific Algoma branch 
 tionds, and the response was such that 
 the lists „were closed in two hours, as 
 uiuch as i^,000,000 haviiiK been appit«d 
 for. The price of issue was 08^, 6 per cent, 
 to be paid on application, 20 per cent, on 
 allotmedt, 40 per cent, on the 5th March, 
 and 33| on the 9April. Interest at the rate 
 of 6 per cent, per annum accrues from 
 January last, .a f ull^coupon being payable 
 
 Jnlv 1 ncft The bonds matiiro July 1, 
 
 The Canadian Oasette ot December 
 17th, 188A, sUted that tenders had been 
 opeued for £233,800 Manitoba Province 5 
 per cent, bonds, the minimum price being 
 105A: that there were 170 applications 
 made; and that the total amount was 
 taken. The value received in the Province 
 was 07 or 96. 
 
 On April 28th, 1887, the Gaiette 
 stated that Messrs. Baring Bros. 
 & Co. had received applications for 
 £1,880,000 At*anUc and Northwest Rail- 
 way bonds; that in a few hours nearly 
 three millions had been applied for; and 
 that the price was 103, dvj per cent ou ap- 
 plication, 20 per cent on allotment, 40 per 
 cent on the 8th of June, and 38 per cent on 
 the 0th of July; or the instalments niiaht 
 be prepaid under discount at 3 per cvnt 
 per annum. Interest accrued from the 
 1st Inst, at the full rate, ' >td the net price 
 of the issue was l ut 102^. The 
 same relative value for the pre.i- 
 ent Government's bonds would be 
 ICl^, so that the Government got 18 more 
 for practically the same security. 
 
 MAmrOBA 6 PER OBNT8 R08K 
 
 between Feb. 23rd and April 17tb, within 
 one month, 4 per cent. He desired to 
 point out why the rise took place. He 
 did not think it was liecause disallowance 
 had been done away with, though possi- 
 bly that might have had something to do 
 with it. The actual cause of the increase 
 was shown in an extract from the London 
 RcoBomist. Mr. Goschen delivered his 
 budget speech this year on the 9lh 
 of March, about ten days after the 
 Manitoba Government bonds had been 
 sold, Mr. Groschen undertook to deal with 
 the 8 per cents at that time issued by the 
 Government. His proposals were practi- 
 cally to reduce within a short time the in- 
 terest on £668.000,000 sterling by i per 
 cent, which was a tremendous decrease on 
 the whole of the Govemmenf s 8 per cent 
 loan. The effect on the prices of securi- 
 ties in the London market was shown in 
 the London Bconomist of March 17th, 
 which commented as follows;— 
 
 "The scheme for the conversion of the 
 national debt, which the Chancellor of 
 the Exchequer expounded last Friday, has 
 led to a remarkable advance in the prices 
 of all flrst-cUss securities, to which the 
 only approach in recent years is the rise 
 that occurred \n 1884, when Mr. Childers 
 tried his hand at conversion. That there 
 should be an upwud movement in prices 
 was to be expected, and had been in fact 
 anticipated to a slight extent for 
 a week or two. prior to Mr. 
 Gtoschens statement, but it must 
 be admiiiied that the magnitude 
 of the actual advance has been somewhat 
 surprising." 
 
 Hon. MX. Jones went on to ^ve some 
 figures showing changes in l3auadUn 
 bonds during the week referred to. Bfiani- 
 toba, 6 per cent. Jan. 7th, 106; 
 
10 
 
 March 8rd, ID; March lOth, 110: Mardi 
 17th, 112; Winnipes, 6 per cent., Jui' 7th, 
 107; March 3rd, flO; March lOih, 110; 
 March 17th, 111. This was the eflfect of 
 the conversion of these 3 per cents on Col- 
 onial securities; to It was dne the almost 
 unprecedented rise in Canadian securities. 
 On the 14th of April a decline was shown; 
 and ou the 21st of April a still further de- 
 cline of i per cent. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Jones said that when the pre- 
 sent loan was placed upon the market the 
 financial men of London had bad promi- 
 nently before them the fact of the dangers 
 of disallowance ; notwithstanding this, 
 there was a wide diflference between the 
 purchase price of these bonds and the 
 offer the hon. gentleman accepted last 
 year. At the time he made the sale last 
 year, on the 16th .June, the quotation of 
 Manitoba 5 per cents, on the London mar. 
 ket was 109, 111, average 110 on the 11th 
 and 18th of that month— he was qiu>ting 
 from the London Economist of those dates. 
 The quotations at the time of the recent 
 loan were 107, 109^ average 108, making a 
 difference of 2 per cent, between the lotn 
 June last, and the 29th of February; yet 
 on the former date the hon. gentleman 
 sold for 102* and he (Hon. Mr. Jones) on 
 the latter date for 103, making a difference 
 in favor of the latter of 2J per cent., and 
 add to this cost of sending bonds to New 
 Yorfe or Montreal and bringing money 
 from there would make the difference 
 nearly 3 per cent. „ ,^. o , 
 
 Six o'clock having been called the Speak- 
 er left the chair. 
 
 Bveninflr Slttinsr. 
 
 At 8.10 o'clock Hon. Mr. Jones resumed, 
 taking up the subject of the ordinair re- 
 ceipts and expenditures of the province. 
 First he desired to point out from what 
 source the Government expected to get 
 the revenues of the next flseal year. He 
 estimated that they would receive on ac- 
 count of subsidy e486,595 74. This as com- 
 pared with the estimates of last yew ^ 
 the late Government was about f iO.OOO 
 less. The actual receipts in 1886-7 were 
 ?435,8e0.98; for 18856, $441,399.22; and lor 
 the present fiscal year ending June 1st, 
 ^429,171.05. This amount was less than 
 what he expected to receive next year, be- 
 cause of the Dominion Government in re- 
 mitting the annual subsidy deducted such 
 auras as were paid out during the year foa? 
 surveying swamp lands. The late Gov- 
 ernment last vear estimated the subsidy 
 for the year at $455,000, which he believed 
 was the amount claimed by the 
 leader of the Opposition as be- 
 ing due per the uudef»tanaing 
 in the settlement of the better terms. The 
 DominionJGovemment, however, claimed, 
 and have claimed ever since the arrange- 
 ment was made, that this position was 
 not the correct one; and in sending the 
 subsidy half-yearly, they did so as they 
 interpreted the agreement, which made a 
 difference of say ?20,000. It was generally 
 
 understood by th« people of the Province 
 when the leader of the Government made 
 what were known as the better tenns, 
 that the Province was to receive about 
 815,000 more than previously to that «•■ 
 rangement; but it was found that the 
 amount paid was something like 
 
 FIVE THOUSAND DOIXABS LESS. 
 
 According to the Dominion Statutes, he 
 thought Uie Dominion Government s ver- 
 sion seemed to be the one the Province 
 MTould have to accept. „Thi8 gave the 
 amount of capital as ?3,311.9l1.77, the 
 amount claimed by the late Government 
 was $3,422,739.84. The diflference was 
 8110,825.07 as per 47 Vic, chap 4. and the 
 amounts withdrawn since, and certain 
 charges which the present lead- 
 er of the opposition claimed were 
 not to be charged against the 
 Province. This he (Hon. Mr. Jones) 
 did not intend to deal with, but would 
 leave it to those who possibly knew more 
 about it than he: he accepted the position 
 as he found it. In estimating the subsidy 
 at 8435,000 the present Government did 
 not intend to take only the amount claim- 
 ed to be due by the Dominion Government, 
 if they could estabUsh what the late Gov- 
 ernment claimed they were entitled to re- 
 ceive; but they did not think it advisable 
 to place the larger sum in the estimates. 
 In view of the refusal for two years to pay 
 the claim. ' i. -.r s 
 
 The estimate of receipts from the Mani- 
 toba Gazette for the next year was SP4,000 ; 
 the receipts for 1885-6 were ?5,9p0; for 
 1888-7 *7,TO2; for the presentyear $3,525.^, 
 which was somewhat less than the esti- 
 mate of last year. The amount received 
 from the Manitoba Gazette this 
 season would have been con- 
 siderably augmented had it not been 
 for the sudden departure of the Queen s 
 Printer, and his taking with him so large 
 an amount. The estimate for next year of 
 receipts from law stamps was flj.oqp; the 
 estimate for last year was f 18,000, the ac- 
 txial receipts for this year, $15,757.50. Last 
 session two acts were passed with refer- 
 ence to laM' stamps; the first, under which 
 the stamps were sold, was declared ultra 
 vires; the other was brought into force by 
 proclamation, but no stamps were sold 
 for some weeks. The estimated receipts 
 for the coming year from private bins were 
 $1,200; from liquor licenses $27,000; the 
 amount received this year from the latter 
 souree, with estimated receipts tothe dOth 
 June, was $29,177; this was somewhat 
 large*- than the Government was entitled 
 to receive in one year, owing to considera- 
 ble amounts having been paid in 
 
 zae earner yaiv vt. v..^ j^—" . "^ : 
 
 should have come in the last fiscal 
 year. The estimate of interest was 
 $17,500, including interest on credit bal- 
 ances in the Merehants bank, about 
 $8,000; judicial district $1,500; other small 
 amounts, $50; advances to the R.R.V.R., 
 $10,000. It was the intention of the pres- 
 ent government to charge interest accrued 
 
11 
 
 on moneyg paid on account of the B.R.V. 
 B. against tl:"? road until it is completed 
 and ready for operation. In that, or any 
 other work on which progressive esti- 
 mates were paid, this was a proper 
 chaif^ aaaingst the undertaking until 
 completed and ready for use. The esti- 
 mate of fees from 
 
 THE lands' titles OFFICII 
 
 WM fiZjOOO, or the same as that of last 
 year. The amount received for the pres- 
 ent year would be «10,56l; for last year 
 ending 30th June, the receipts were ¥8,- 
 016, the receipts for the previous year 
 were but 82,209.50. In view of what has 
 been said he would like to point out the 
 rapid increase of the receipts from the 
 lands' titles office. For the first 
 seven months from December. 1885, 
 to 30th June, 1880, the average 
 receipts per month were $500; from 30th 
 June, 1886, to 30th Junr 887. twelve 
 months, $800 per month; : the last ten 
 months, 91,016 per month, iao it was seen 
 that the increase had been veiy rapid; and 
 no doubt, if the law were left as at pre- 
 sent— (Applause)— the estimate of $12,000 
 would be considerably increased. But in 
 view of the fact of some doubt existing in 
 the House as to whether the act should be 
 left as it is or a change made, he thought 
 it advisable to keep the estimate some- 
 what low. 
 
 The estimate for receipts from marriage 
 licenses was $1,200; the estimate for last 
 year was $2,500. The intention of the 
 Government was to reduce the marriage 
 license fee one half from $5 to $2.50. (Great 
 applause.) They thought the sale of mar- 
 nage licenses shoula be encouraged in 
 everyway possible. He had no doubt this 
 reduction would show £t the end of the 
 year that a considerable number more of 
 marriage licenses had been issued this 
 year than in any previous year. No doubt 
 some of the member^ of the House would 
 take advantage of these cheap rates. 
 (Burst of applause.) If the Government 
 had not anticipated this increase, they 
 would not have beea warranted in mak- 
 ing the estimate $1,200, but would have 
 made it, say $1,100; he thought, however, 
 they could make up the $100 without go- 
 ing outside of the Uuuse. 
 
 From Provincial lands the estimate was 
 $12,000, which was the same as that of 
 last year, the Government no doubt look-" 
 ing forward to the sale of the Cameron 
 property on Main street for the larger 
 part of that amount. The receipts of last 
 
 J ear fell short of the estimate, being only 
 52,50. 
 From sundry sources, largely county 
 
 from fees for the keeping of lunatics paid 
 for by the Dominion Government as com- 
 ing from the Northwest Territories and 
 Keewatin, $10,000. The receipts this year 
 from that source were very large, be- 
 cause there was a considerable amouut 
 due at the beginning of the year, making 
 the total, if the amount for the 
 
 last quarter of the year should 
 be received before the 1st of June, $10,- 
 094.60. Other items were: Central Judicial 
 Board refund, $7,210; bills receivable,$500; 
 M. & N. W. B. B., 3 per cent, on gross 
 earnings, $6,000. He believed that the 
 last item, though provided for by law, had 
 not been collected, and was now placed in 
 the estimates for the first time. 
 
 Mr.Norquay asked if the sum given was 
 for this year; Hon. Mr. Jones answered 
 that it was not, but included $1,500 pre- 
 viously dne. 
 
 The percentage on the Man. S. W. Col. 
 B.B. gross earnings amounted to $6,400; 
 this estimate was also higher than the 
 year would give; because nothing had 
 been paid up to the present time. These 
 estimates were based on information fur- 
 nished by Messrs. Van Home and Baker. 
 The receipts from municipalitiss for the 
 keeping of lunatics was estimated at 
 $15,000. This money had not been received 
 heretofore, although the law distinctly 
 stated that municipalities sending luna- 
 tics to the asylum should pay for keeping 
 tliem. The net receipts from the 
 B. B. V. B. were estimat- 
 ed at $35,000. The total was $616,105,14; 
 the total for last year was $602,107.54. 
 
 With a view of ascertaining the actual 
 cost of civil government, or what it took 
 
 TO RUN THE MACHINE 
 
 and making some compari:;on be- 
 tween what the present Govern- 
 ment proposed it should cost, and 
 what it had- cost iu the past, he had spent 
 a good deal of time during the past week 
 in endeavoring to make what he believed 
 to be a proper classification, putting into 
 thd^cost of civil government such items as 
 were not of direct benefit to the people; 
 and under the second head such as were a 
 direct benefit. As some items did not 
 seem to belong to either, he had put them 
 into a third class, as miscellaneous. If he 
 put the same items under tlie same heads 
 for the difterent years from 1886 up to the 
 present, ho thought this would be fair. 
 For indemnity to memoers the estimate 
 was $20,000. There was to be an increase 
 of three members. While the Govern- 
 ment had found it necessary to make this 
 increase in order to give fair re- 
 presentation to all the districts; it 
 was felt at the same time that an 
 increased burden should not be 
 placed on the Province, that the cost 
 should not be more tnan in the past; it 
 was also felt that in future, if the house 
 were called together not later than the 
 1st of^February, and the business was 
 well under wa^,the session at that season 
 
 i^tiDg a zliOiltii Or six Wc^ks, the mem- 
 bers would be as well paid with a session- 
 al allowance of $500 as now with $600 or 
 $800 coming along so late in the season. 
 (Applause.) 
 
 With reference to salaries under the 
 head of legislation, the estimate was $4,- 
 650; that for the past fiscal year was $7, 
 600.' For printing, advertising, etc., un- 
 
12 
 
 i: ! 
 
 der thislhead. tlie estimate was^lLiiOO; 
 the cost for these items in 1885-6 was f30,- 
 546.06; that in iaS6-7, 932,684.89; that for 
 1887-8, $17,150, a very material redaction; 
 while that for next year, $ll,iX)0, was $19,- 
 346.06 less than the expenditure for- 1885^, 
 and 921,484.89 less than that for 1886-7. , 
 
 The hon. a(entleman proposed to point 
 out here one or two reasons why theprint- 
 inff had cost so larseanamount in 1886-6-7; 
 also to poinloutwhathett^ouKhtthe House 
 would agree was irregul&r with reference 
 to the mode by which printing had here- 
 tofore been pud for. The statutesof 1887, 
 Cap. 20, Section 74, pointed out as follows, 
 under what circumstances advances on 
 printing might be made:— 
 
 "No payment shall be authorized by the 
 auditor in respect of work performed or 
 materials supplied oy any person in con- 
 nection with any part of thepubUc service 
 of Manitoba unless, in addition to any 
 voucher or certificate, which may be re- 
 quired in that behalf, the officer under 
 whose special charge such part of the pub- 
 lic service is certifies that such work has 
 been performed or such material supplied 
 (as the case may be) and that the price 
 charged is according to contract, or if not 
 covered by a contract, is fair and just." 
 
 ADVANCES IN VIOLATION OF STATUTE. 
 
 He foun . that on the 16th January last 
 —very close to the date when the late 
 Government stepped down and out— they 
 paid the Canadian Publishing Co. 91j6W 
 as follows : Un account of statutes of 1888, 
 9400 (none delivered); bills, $260 (none de- 
 livered); votes and proceeding, 875 (one 
 copy delivered); orders of the day, 925 
 (one copy delivered); journals, 9100 (none 
 delivered); sessional papers, 9160 (none 
 delivered). Five bills were handed to 
 the translator on the 12th January, 
 and two on the 13tb; no more until the 
 17th. It was safe to infer that but little, 
 if any French printing had been done on 
 the 16th. Advances under those circum- 
 stances were in direct contradiction to 
 the terms upon which they might be 
 made. He found also that there was an 
 advance made on the 14th of January, and 
 it war irawine prettv close to the date 
 when an election took place close to the 
 city. The advance was of 9^^ paid on 
 account of printing the public account' 
 He found that three pages (presumably 
 the title page and the letter addressed to' 
 His Honor) were sent by the Queen's 
 printer, G. Bourdtau, to the Tribune Re- 
 view, to be printed on Dec. 30th, 1887. 
 The first few pages of the MS of public ac- 
 counts proper, were sent on Feb. 8th, 
 about 25 days after that advance of 940d. 
 
 Attention was next drawn to another 
 little printing matter which had cropped 
 up very nnexpectedly and came very 
 prominently before the Provincial Treas- 
 urer within the last few weeks. A great 
 deal was said during the general elec- 
 tion of December, 1866, in reference to the 
 printing of the reports of the Department 
 of Agriculture, Statistics ai\d Health. 
 
 (Hear, hear.) This report came out, in 
 the opinion of many, at a date later than 
 it was desirable it should appear, if it was 
 to be of any considerable benefit. Others 
 said that it would be read with just as 
 much interest four or five years after that 
 date as if it came out at the close of the 
 year. He proposed to show 
 
 WHERE THE PRINTING HAD BEEN DONE 
 
 under what circumstances, at what cost 
 to the Province, what company did the 
 work, and what it actually got for that 
 work. He again had to express his re- 
 gretB that the member for St. Boniface, 
 the late Provincial Treasurer, wasnotin his 
 place. He had seen that gentleman in 
 the House at 3 o'clock, and fullv expected 
 from time to time that he would teM6 his 
 seat on the floor of the House. For some 
 reason he had been unable to do so. He 
 would be obliged to allude to certain mat- 
 ters in the same manner as if the hon. 
 member were present. The Bnglish re- 
 port for 1882 of the department referred to 
 was printed by the Grovemment (2,500 
 copies), the work being done by t^e Ga- 
 zette Printing Co. of Montreal, and paid 
 for in 1883, the cost being 91,721.06; this 
 appeared to bequite regular. The English 
 report for 18^ did not appear to be 
 quite so regular in the interests of 
 the Province. He found that the total cost 
 of the work for that year was 84,898.03, 
 which amount was paid in 1885 to the 
 Times Printing Co., of Winnipeg, in four 
 several cheques, dated Feb. 25, March 22, 
 April 2 and July 18. In addition to pay- 
 ing this to the Times Printing Co., he 
 found that the Grovernment paid 979.30, 
 cost of freight on the work after it was 
 done, from Montreal to Winnipeg, making 
 
 J 4,978.23. The work was actual^ done by 
 ohn Lovell <(lc Sons, Montreal, who have 
 billed the present Government for a bal- 
 ance of 84,132.00, claimed to be still due 
 them. The latter circumstance brought 
 to his (the provincial treasurer's) notice 
 the facts now stated. The actual cost of 
 the work, as per account rendered, was 
 92,132.00, including the express charges; 
 and this should have been paid to John 
 LoVe!l& Sons for work for which the 
 Provinoe paid 94,078.23 to the Times Print- 
 ii^r Co., who made the payments to the 
 former. 
 
 With reference to the French printing, 
 it was found that Uiere was billed to the 
 Government by the Canadian Pub- 
 lishing C!o. the printing of the 
 report of the Department of Agri- 
 culture, Statistics and Health for 1882. 
 The total pcdd by the Province 
 for the work was 91-640.71; but this also 
 was done by John Lovell & Sons. Mon- 
 treal, and the actual cost amounted to 
 8755.60; so that the Canadian Publishing 
 Co. made a profit of 9886.21, or consider- 
 ably more than the cost of the work itself. 
 The report for 1883 was printed at a total 
 cost to the Province of 96.383.70 which 
 was paid for in five several cheques during 
 1885-6-7, the bulk of it being paid in 1887. 
 
rt came out. in 
 date later tnan 
 ippear, it it was 
 wnefit. Otiiers 
 A witlijust as 
 years after tliat 
 le close of the 
 
 V 
 
 lD been done 
 , at what cost 
 ipany did the 
 ly got for that 
 Kpress his re- 
 r St. Boniface, 
 er.wasnotinhis 
 gentleman in 
 mllT expected 
 would take his 
 ise. For some 
 to do so. He 
 to certain mat- 
 is if the hon. 
 he English re- 
 lent referred to 
 'ernment (2,600 
 }ne by the 6a- 
 itreal, and paid 
 $1,721.06; this 
 ar. The ISnglish 
 t appear to be 
 e interests of 
 It the total cost 
 was 24,898.83, 
 in 1^ to the 
 Innipeg, in four 
 >.25, March 22, 
 ddition topay- 
 'rintiuK Co., he 
 nt paid $79.30, 
 rk after it was 
 onipeg, making 
 ciualfy done by 
 real, who have 
 lent for a bal- 
 to be still due 
 stance brought 
 usurer's) notice 
 actual cost of 
 rendered, was 
 xpress charges; 
 )n paid to John 
 for which the 
 heXimes Print- 
 aymenta to the 
 
 "ench printing. 
 » billed to the 
 anadian Pub- 
 ting of the 
 lent of Agri- 
 ealth for 1882. 
 he Province 
 : but this also 
 1 & Sons, Mon- 
 ic amoontedto 
 lian Publishing 
 1, or conaider- 
 the work itself, 
 inted at a total 
 5,383.70 which 
 cheques during 
 og paid in 1887. 
 
 U 
 
 
 The charge of John Lovell & Sons for the 
 work, including traa8lating,was $1,577.30, 
 leaving 
 
 A PROFIT OF $4,130.20 
 
 to the Canadian Publishing Co. It would 
 seem that, with a profit like this, that 
 company could at least have afforded to 
 pay the freight and get the work back to 
 the city; but he supposed they (or he, for 
 he believed that Hon, Mr. LaBiviere was 
 the company) concluded that the margin 
 was sa small that the Province could rat- 
 ter a£ford to do so than they could. 
 
 The total steal, as the Premier called it, 
 was as follows: Total cost to the Provmce, 
 
 S 13,723.72; actual cost of the work, $6,266.- 
 i, $4,000 of which v/as paid by the Cana- 
 dian Publishing Ck>., and the balance by 
 the Times Printing Co. The report print- 
 ed in English in l^was contracted for by 
 the government direct, so that in this 
 there was no steal. The English and 
 French reports for 1883 were the ones 
 supposed to have been let to the two local 
 companies mentioned, the profits on the 
 actual cost of these amounted to $7,457.64; 
 that is if they had to pav to John Lovell 
 & Sons the balance which the government 
 was now asked to pay, and which he was 
 satisfied from the correspondence they 
 would have to pay $465.70. The order 
 was cdven by the (Queen's printer to John 
 Lovell & Sons, and the correspondence of 
 that firm was with the department of 
 agriculcure. He found that tney charged 
 for 260 copies of the French report more 
 than the province revived; 260 copies 
 were billed to the government, and sent 
 to St. BoniftMM to be put into theStatutes, 
 and never returned: so that the govern- 
 ment never received any of the 1,600 copies 
 though 600 copies were oound and receiv- 
 ed. He found that the item for freight in 
 bringing these reports here went through 
 the auditor's books as "freight on reports 
 of the Agriculture, Statistics and 
 Health department, the report of the 
 
 Subltc accounts committee laid before the 
 [ouse contained a similar entry; but when 
 it was got ready for the printer, and be- 
 fore it was printed,itwa8<ihownto thelate 
 provincial treasurer (the minister of agri- 
 culture, statistics and healch having 
 moved to that ofiice in the interim); and 
 he saw fit to change this particular item 
 to ''freight on books." He (Hon.Mr. Jones) 
 had no doubt the change was made so 
 the item would not be understood; and so 
 that it would be paid without being found 
 out. 
 
 THE C0BBE8PONDBNCE 
 
 in connection with this showed that the 
 contract, in "o f%r as -John Lovell & Sons 
 were concerned, wasjpdven to them direct 
 by the Grovemment. The first letter, dated 
 Sept. 24th, 1884, ani^ signed by Gideon 
 Bourdeau, Queen's ' .ixter, and addressed 
 to Messrs. Lovell &. ^o 'i, Montreal, was as 
 follows:— 
 
 "I beg to inform you that I have for- 
 wardedito you this day, per Dominion 
 
 Express Coy., the copv for the report of 
 the Department of Ajoriculture, Statistics 
 & Health, for 1883, together with 
 maps and cuts for same. I 
 enclose copy of instructions received 
 from the Deputy Minister as to the gen- 
 eral setting up of the report; and a copy of 
 the report for 1882, mentioned in instruc- 
 tioas, will be forwarded to you by to- 
 night's mail from the department. Please 
 see that the proofs are sent regularly as 
 per enclosed instructions." 
 
 On Oct. 24th, 1884, a telegram was sent 
 to John Lovell & Sons signed "A. A. C. 
 LaBiviere" (not his official signature), 
 "Get report eighty-three translated into 
 French; 7o0 copies report in English, addi- 
 tional, will be required for journals. 
 Have written." 
 
 On the same date Mr. LaBiviere wrote 
 a letter, which b^gan as follows; "On re- 
 ceipt of your telegram to-day stating that 
 you could get the report of this Depart- 
 ment for 1883 translated into French at 
 the rate of seventy-five cents per page, I 
 wired you to have the work done. Tne 
 French edition is to consist of 500 copies." 
 The letter was signed "A. A. C. La- 
 Biviere," in his own writing; the words 
 "in this department" were to oe noted. 
 
 On November 13th, 1884, Mr. LaBiviere 
 wrote: "I have expressed to you to-day 
 the French manuscript of the report of the 
 departmentfor 1882, of which 500 copies 
 only are to be printed." The remainder 
 of the letter gave directions as to the style 
 of printing, &c., and continued, "You 
 will send the final revised proofs here for 
 examination." Another sentence was, 
 "You are sending the proofs of the Eng- 
 lish report for 1883 very slowly. I find 
 that only about 50 pages have as yet come 
 to hand. Please push along ali you can. 
 
 On November 17th, 1884, a letter went, 
 written on official paper of the depart- 
 ment, and signed, "Acton Burrows, De- 
 puty Minister." It was dated, "The De- 
 partment of Agriculture, Statistics and 
 Health, Winnipeg, Manitoba, November 
 17th, 1884." It gave directions regarding 
 the printing of the covers. 
 
 Various other telegrams and letters 
 were read by Hon. Mr. Jones, establish- 
 ing that the work was contracted for by 
 the Minister of Agriculture, Statistics 
 and Health in his official capacity, while 
 pretending to give the work to local com- 
 panies whose profits were over $7,000, 
 while, had the Minister done his duty 
 and given the work to John Lovell & Sons, 
 it would have actually cost the province 
 $4,465. 
 
 Mr. Leacock asked if the documents 
 produced ware the origiuals^ Hon^ Mr. 
 Martin crossed the floor of the House to 
 show them to the member, while Mr. 
 Jones went on to state that in tracing the 
 matter he had had to ask for the official 
 correspondence. 
 
 RBOCCTIONS IN COST OF LBOISLATIOM. 
 
 The total coat of legisiaticm^ in 1885-6 
 
-^ 
 
 if I 
 
 14 
 
 i .1 
 
 was $66,704; in 1886-7 972.016. The OoV- 
 emment had srone over the estimates of 
 the cost of legislation for next year most 
 carefully ancThe had no doubt that they 
 were ample, and more than ample; the 
 total was 942,035, or less than the amount 
 spent in 1885-6 by 823,800, and less than 
 the amount spent in 1886-7 by over $20,- 
 000. 
 
 In the Executive Council Department 
 the estimate for salaries was $2,800 
 against $4,300 in 1886-7. The total reduc- 
 tion was $3,850. 
 
 In the Treasury Department the esti- 
 mate for salaries was $5,000; an increase 
 of $400 over the estimate of the late Gov- 
 ernment for the present year. In 1886-7 
 the cost for salaries in this department 
 was $7,851.10. The position of the Treas- 
 ury Department when the present Treas- 
 urer took office had been shown; there 
 had been no entries in the cash book for 
 fifteen months, and a pcreat deal of work 
 had accumulated: this was the case when 
 the estimates were reduced from $7,800 to 
 $5,400. It was a myst^n^ what the de- 
 partment proposed to do with $5,400, 
 when they could not keep up the work 
 with $7,800; and when in 1885-6 the total 
 cost for salaries was over $0,000. The 
 only explanation seemed to be that, flnd- 
 iug they could not with a large expendi- 
 ture overtake the work, they concluded 
 that they would reduce the aalaries large- 
 ly, and 
 
 DO NO WORK AT ALL. 
 
 (Laughter.) He did not wish to convey to 
 the House the impressionthat the officials 
 in the treasury department were not effi- 
 cient, or did not work properly. On tak- 
 ing charge he had found them to be, he 
 beUeved, as good as the Government 
 would ever have. He had never had 
 charge of any office in which ho had found 
 officials more anxious to see the work in 
 proper shape, or who understood their 
 duties better. He was sure that if they 
 had had a head who worked properly, or 
 had been allowed to do the work them- 
 selves, having no head at all, thev would 
 have had the work in a very oifliereut 
 shape. 
 
 Reverting to the question of printing, 
 Hon. Mr. Jones said there was an item 
 which he had overlooked, aa ac- 
 count of $576.75, which the Prov- 
 ince had paid, but for which 
 it had never received any return. It con- 
 sisted of some 30 different items, includ- 
 ing, principally, a list of private bills (1887) 
 of which the printing was charged by the 
 Canadian Publishing Company, but which 
 were never received oy either the Queen's 
 Printer or the Glsrki of the Ls<*iB!stivs 
 Assembly. 
 
 In connection with the telegraph and 
 telej,hone service, Hon. Mr. Jones men- 
 tioned what, he said, had seemed to him 
 a rather amusing circumstance. A hill 
 came in asking for payment for a tele- 
 phone in his department. A voucher was 
 made out by the deputy treasurer^ but 
 
 when it went to the auditor he said there 
 mtist be a mistake, as the telephone in the 
 treasurer's office had been paid for. He' 
 (Hon. Mr. Jones) then went to the deputy 
 treasurer, pointing out that it was rather 
 awkward to senaa voucher through for 
 an account that had already been paid. 
 The latter replied that he was satisfied it 
 had not been paid. On looking into the 
 matter he was satisfied that the auditor 
 had arrived at his conclusion because a 
 telephone had been paid for and 
 charged to the department; bht the 
 telephone was in Mr. LaRiviere's house in 
 St. Boniface. He then asked for a state- 
 ment showing if there were other tele- 
 phones charged for that were in private 
 houses; and as a result he held in his hand 
 a detailed statement of charges for all 
 telephone services since 1883, showing in 
 what offices the telephones were used. 
 The total cost of telephones paid for by 
 the Government up to ten d^s ago was 
 $3j468.73. He found that telephones in 
 private residences and other places where 
 they had no business to be had cost the 
 province $980.35. These telephones were 
 
 FOUND IN PRIVATB RE8IDBNCE8 
 
 and paid for as follows 1 Hon. J. A. Mil- 
 ler, private residence $30, nrlvate office, 
 MO, total $00; Hon. C. E. Hamilton, $60; 
 Hon. C. P. Brown, $103; Mr. Constantine, 
 $67.50; the member for St. Andrew's, $58: 
 Hon. A. A. C. LaRiviere, $285. (Lau^ter 
 and sensation, during which Mr. McKen- 
 zie accounted for the greatness of the last 
 item l^ remarking "He had it 
 in both languages. " This brought 
 down the House, and the Hon. Provincial 
 Treasurer was obliged to sit down until 
 the paroxysm of laughter was over. He 
 then proceeded): Acton Burrows, Deputy 
 Minister of Agriculture, Statistics and 
 Health, $139.50; private line to the Gall 
 office, $15; A. II. Rennie, $72. (Loud 
 laughter.) 
 
 In dealing with the estimates in the 
 Provincial Secretary's Department, Hon. 
 Mr. Jones mentioned, in connection with 
 the item, "Manitoba Gazette, $2,000," that 
 It-was intended to comewhat lessen the 
 uses hitherto made of the Gazette, there- 
 by making the cost somewhat less, and at 
 the same time lessening to some extent 
 the receipts. Passing briefly over the pro- 
 posed reduction of $4,000 in the Attorney- 
 General's department, and explaining that 
 the small estimate of $250 for the railway 
 commissioner's department was merely to 
 cover the expense of telegraphing and 
 some incidentals, the department havins 
 been amalgamated with the Attorney- 
 General's department and placed under 
 the official who manased the lands branch 
 office, he next took up the Agricul- 
 ture, Statistics and Health Department. 
 He compared the proposed aggregate of 
 $5,400 for salaries with the eicpenditum 
 last ytiar, of $8,074, and that of the year 
 bef ore,of $8,000, showing that the decrease 
 was $3,600, in the one case and $2,674 in 
 the other. The printing of the report of 
 
Id 
 
 ' he said there 
 3lephone in the 
 paid for. He' 
 to the deputy 
 it was rather 
 er through for 
 ady been paid, 
 as satisfied it 
 ilcine into the 
 t the auditor 
 ■lion because a 
 lid for and 
 ent; bUt the 
 iere's house in 
 sd for a state- 
 ere other tele- 
 vere in private 
 eld in his hand 
 zharscs for all 
 3, snowing in 
 38 were used. 
 » paid for by 
 durs ago was 
 telephones in 
 'places where 
 had cost the 
 ephones were 
 
 IIDENCBS 
 
 m. J. A. Mil- 
 
 Srlvate office, 
 amilton, $60; 
 '. Gonstantine, 
 Lndrew's, ^8; 
 is. (LauG^ter 
 I Mr. McKen- 
 ess of the last 
 3e had it 
 fhis brought 
 on. Provincial 
 b down until 
 i^as over. He 
 rrows, Deputy 
 statistics and 
 i to the Call 
 , f72. (Loud 
 
 dates in the 
 irtment, Hon. 
 inection with 
 !, $2,000," that 
 at lessen the 
 azette, there- 
 it less, and at 
 some extent 
 r over the pro- 
 the Attorney, 
 splaining that 
 tr the railway 
 was merely to 
 ;raphing and 
 tment Eavina 
 ;Le Attorney- 
 placed under 
 % IfiitidH hr£nch 
 the Agrioul- 
 I Department, 
 aggregate of 
 le expenditure 
 lat of the year 
 t the decrease 
 i and $2,674 in 
 ! the report of 
 
 th« Agrioultttre, Statistics and Health 
 aepartment, seemed to be a dangerous 
 thlna for the Government; and it was pro- 
 posed to drop it entirely. 
 
 In 1883-4-5 there was received from the 
 Dominion Government $2,500 per year for 
 furnishing agriculture and health statis- 
 tics; in 1886 the Grovernment here were no- 
 tified that it was not desired to continue 
 the arrangement; and that amount was 
 not now received. He desired to call the 
 attention of the House to the fact that the 
 cheque for the payment for 1884 left Ottawa 
 on the 20th of February, 1885; it arrived at 
 the Department of Agriculture here on 
 March ,3rd, 1885; and reached the treasur- 
 er's office June fWth 1885; that 
 is 110 days after it had reached 
 the department uf Agriculture across the 
 hall. It seemed curious that it should 
 have taken so long: and he found it neces- 
 sary to send to Ottawa for a duplicate 
 cheque, which he now held in his hand 
 with the signatures and endorsements. 
 The face of the cheque showed Ithat it is- 
 sued 20th Feb. 1885, was for $2,500, was for 
 agricultural and industrial statislics and 
 was signed by Mr. Lowe, Ottawa. The 
 back of the cheque showed that it was en- 
 dorsed by Acton Burrows, Deputy Minis- 
 ter of Agriculture, Statistics and Health. 
 Where it had gone between March and 
 Jane 
 
 DID NOT appear; 
 
 but the money was evidently used for pri- 
 vate purposes with the interest $48,00. 
 The money was abstracted, used illegally 
 and returned 119 days after it had been 
 received; or Justin time to get it in the 
 financial year. 
 
 The payment for 1885 was dated Ottawa, 
 June 17, 1888, it reached the Winnipeg De- 
 partment of Agriculture June 21, 1^6; but 
 did not reach the treasurer's department 
 until Feb. 18th, 1888, after the present 
 Government came into office. The Gov- 
 ernment found that the money had not 
 been paid by the Dominion Government; 
 and, being hwrd up for money and looking 
 about for accounts to collect, thought pro- 
 per to ask for it when they were told it 
 had been paid. The correspondence led on 
 to other information from time to time 
 until these details came under his (the 
 Provincial Treasurer's) notice. On the 
 back of the cheque was the endorsa- 
 tion of A. A. LaRiviere, and under 
 his signature was that of Acton Burrows 
 That cheque was 607 days in crossing the 
 hall from one department to the other;and 
 the interest at 6 per cent, amounting^ to 
 $249.49 was lost to the treasury. The 
 amount was handed to the deputy treas- 
 urer in the Merchants' bank on Feb. 18th 
 
 xir u£8-jis, miitirUL our avaLciucuL, riuii. ixir. 
 
 LaRiviere handing it to the deputy treas- 
 urer in the presence of a*witness.Ue(Hon. 
 Mr. Jones) wrote to Mr. LaRiviere for an 
 explanation, but never received a reply, 
 jteferring to the subject of 
 
 MARRIAGE LICENSES, 
 
 Mr. Jones raad the following' letter from 
 
 thespMial auditors, Messrs. John Mo* 
 Donald and Alex. Moffat.dated 12th April, 
 1888: 
 
 "We have tlie honor to make this special re- 
 port on the following matters which you will 
 flndincluded in supplementary statements of 
 assets and liabilities. accompanyioK our inter- 
 im report dated the 7th inst. , viz: The balance 
 of 1581.53 at credit of the Board 
 of Agriculture (now abolished) bearing no 
 interest, might with advantage, to the extent 
 of interest, be transferred to the general funds 
 of the Province. The laatriage license act, 
 clause U, might bo so amended that the fees 
 collected be in future paid in at once to the 
 Treasurer, instead of "at the end of each flsoal 
 year" as at present directed. The fees so col- 
 lected fron the commencement of the current 
 fiscal year to the I6th January last, amounted 
 to f I,^.SO, and i on deposit in the Imperial 
 Bank, bearing 3 per cent, interest. The inter- 
 cat credited to the accoimt kept in the name of 
 I the "Minister Jof Agriculture, Statistics and 
 Health," amounting in the aggregate to f42.11, 
 appears to have been regarded as a perquisite 
 belonging to the chief clerk, Mr. A. W- John 
 son, and drawn out by him on cheques signed 
 by the Hon. D. H. Harrison, as Minister of 
 Agriculture.^tatistios and Health, The cheques 
 are handed you herewith. Immediate steps 
 will no doubt be taken to have all 
 these amounts placed in the hands of 
 the Provincial Treasurer, and we would now 
 repeat our strong recommendation to have all 
 revenues paid into the treasury, which would 
 prevent irregularities and effect a considerable 
 saving in interest." 
 
 In connection with the auditors' report 
 was a statement of Imperial Bank cheques 
 sighed by D. H. Harrison for various am- 
 ounts, the. 1st dated June 30th, 1887, in 
 favor of the. Provincial Treasurer for $2.- 
 409.50; then, June 2nd, one payable to A.W. 
 Johnston for $10.35: June 3rd, to the 
 same, for $31.75. Thus it was shown that 
 the interest accruing on the moneys were 
 not paid to the Province, but considered, 
 not only by the official, but by the Minis- 
 ter of the Department, as due to the per- 
 sons in the department. Considerable 
 amounts were found to have been paid 
 out La the same way, from the same fund: 
 —Dec. 4th, 1885, cheque, $50.05; June 4th, 
 1886, cheque, $24.86; June 3rd,1887, cheque 
 to A. W. Johnson, $31.76; Jan. 2nd. 1888, 
 cheque to A. W. Johnson, $10.35; total, 
 $123.62. The first of these were not avail- 
 able, nor was the bank book, so that 
 therewasnowayof cracingthese particular 
 moneys except by going to the bank. The 
 law in 1884 
 
 WAS TERT CLEAR 
 
 with reference to marriage license moneys; 
 he referred to Gap. 10, sef tion 42, which 
 provided that "The amount so paid to the 
 said department shall be credited to the 
 issuers by whom paid, and shall be forth- 
 with handod over by the department to 
 the Treasurer of the Province.''' in 1886 
 it was thought desirable, evidently, that 
 this law should be changed; and in Gap. 
 41 section 5, the word "forthwith" was 
 struck out, and instead the words "at the 
 end of each fiscal year to form part of the 
 consolidated revenue tund of the Prov- 
 ince," were inserted. That liw was as- 
 
16 
 
 "ffiSvd^^ tl ^^^ May. 1886; It WM 
 thA i5i„^**^.'°' * purpoTO, to enable 
 J!J5ki "***®*' *° mRnipulate the fund 
 v««**T#^?Py'P~«»™"l the end of the 
 Xff^'^o ' ri '*^ HP ^° May 8th, 1886, had 
 been carried out, the Minister should have 
 
 w«?« tiif/r P,™?P"y »« moneys as they 
 thl^ ?^M*°' '>«t.>8te8d of thai, he kepi 
 them In his own department. Appended 
 to the report of the auditors aS^Sove 
 Riven was the following statement: 
 frlZ*\l 'flowing amounts have been drawn 
 
 27th JS^^Si^iSSf"!?' *.? the imperial 6ank: Feh. 
 «y£']«^'fi!?*L4P"l 3rd. 11,000; April 30th. 
 
 crodit o^ ThS *■** "?* ro-doposltod tithe 
 ?»2« ^L "le account until July 10th, 
 thW" f„«?" ^ olrcuinstanco accounts for 
 tno fact that the marrlaKe license 
 
 ^^Tr «l' i*"' ^S^^ y**"^. ondlnl Juno ^tl^ 
 1880, was not paid over to the Provincial Trea 
 surer untilJuly 12th, im" '^"'^•'*''"*' ^'^• 
 
 When the law was changed in May It 
 became necessary that the money should 
 
 v^«^*?ni^T*'^®'K*'..'^* «°** of the fiscal 
 year, 30th June; but It was not convenient 
 to hand It over then. According to the 
 pubUc accounts for years 1880-7 
 there was not a dollar paid 
 1^* 'na'riW licenses, the minister was 
 
 ^^i^*!"'? }S "'P^y '•»« money. It 
 came into the treasury ten days too 
 late to be included in the accounts for 
 that year. This showed conclusively that 
 the law was changed In 1886. so that the 
 
 wifK^^^T?^** °5' m^ire to be dealt 
 with until the end of the yew, for the 
 purpMe of covering up transactions that 
 had already occurred In the oflSce. 
 
 Tlie estimate of expenditure for the Po- 
 lice Department was next taken up, and 
 the amount, ?1, 600, was compared with 
 
 j^®iS^«°Q4°JS'ig^?»«°*°' ^^*> department 
 n 1885-6, «7,384.^; In 188B-7, 83,1M; and 
 in the present year, f5.900. The cost for 
 next year was estimated at *1,600 because 
 It was not the Intention of the Govern- 
 ment to keep so large a staff of provincial 
 gohceas In the past. It was intended 
 
 oen8mkept,Diakingrltimpoaalble to tell with 
 anydegTMofoortalnty. who had reoeivedU- 
 oenses and who had not. The transaotioiuof 
 the offloe wore noted on slijM of paper, many ol 
 them without dates, andtbese were found, 
 some In envelopes, but most of them thrown 
 loosely in drawers, pigeon boles and 
 elsewhere about the 1;wo offices. From 
 these slips a set of books had to 
 Do oonatruotcd, which oooupiod a groat 
 deal of time, and leaves a most unpleasant 
 doubt as to whether all the transactions have 
 boon accounted for. We found express envel- 
 
 Eand slips showing amounts aggregating 
 "cenge money which was not accou ttsd 
 9 the Treasurer, although they should have 
 peon paid over, promptly on receipt Those we 
 have oharged up to Chief Tiippor and credited 
 
 already suggested to the Attomey-Qencral that 
 all moneys should be paid directly to the 
 Treasurer and we would now respectfully re 
 
 I •! i 
 
 NOT MORE THAN ONE CONSTABLE 
 
 should be kept here, but that local men 
 ??°Hi? ^ appointed in different parts of 
 the Province to do the work as necessity 
 arose. On the Srd of April, 1888, thi 
 special auditors reported as follows:— 
 
 <.fl?^''^^^1.*'***!,**'*°°*' *»*"»«»* you herewith a 
 statement showing the balances of the differ 
 
 ^fw^^^.^Pi'f °" % ^^^^ o' the provincial 
 K*i!^^.?"* license^dopartments as far as the ir- 
 teh*i^"'*^£*"'i?*"P«??>e'»ahleBus to Mtob- 
 lld» them. The Hon. the Attorney-General has 
 oommuni«»ted with the different municlpat 
 itles with the v ew of ascertataing the numl^r 
 of hotels, etc., licensed in each dUrlng 1886.?^ 
 and when reDlinn arn iwatved thf. "-"--1-!^^ 
 
 S!l!.Win"f^E!^ T^J^ too^ased.' TTr office 
 work In these departments, commencing with 
 the introUucUon of the present ficenw 
 act in 1886, has been conducted 
 i?„ ft *°°t ""^t reckless manner. 
 No attempt was miide at keeping proper books 
 to account for receipts and dbbSriemcntsTnor 
 was there a reliable or complete register of U- 
 
 Pi^-^wrhe suggestion in order to prevent the pos- 
 sibility of a repetition of the extraordinuT 
 fu*"^*}"* hitherto displayed ia dealing with 
 the anhirs of these departments. " 
 
 The law in renurd to llcensemoneys was 
 very clear. In thap. 21, section 132 of the 
 Statutes of 1886. ft was provided that 
 a prosecution fund, consisting of ton 
 per cent. in addition to the 
 bnountpaid to the Provincial Treasurer 
 for cAch license, and half of all fines col- 
 lected under the act, "the Chief Inspector 
 shall be Treasurer, and shall keep a due 
 ac:^>unt thereof, and the said fund shall 
 be audited once In each and every year by 
 such person as the Provincial Treasurer 
 mav appoint;" also, "all inspectors shall 
 make the return of all expenses Incurred 
 by them in connection with this fund ver- 
 ified by statutory declaration; provided 
 always that If at any time a sum exceed- 
 ing esOO be to the credit of the 
 fund, the Chief Inspector shall de- 
 posit all the money above that amount to 
 the credit of the Provincial Treasurer, 
 and the same shall not form part of the 
 consolidated revenue fund, but shall form 
 a separate fundr to be paid out again by 
 the Provincial Treasurer as reqiHred for 
 the purposes of this Act, provided always 
 I i?t ?il paynaents made In connection 
 with this fund shall be with the consent 
 and approval of the Provincial Treas- 
 urer."^ 
 
 Chief Tupper was shown to have re- 
 SS*rS!?^° disbursed funds amounting to 
 p,568.87, ess doubt f 100. cash on hand 
 taken over by the auditors and paid by 
 k,?F. *^. ^^^ Provincial Treasurer 
 ?146, leaving J7,422.87. Though the act 
 required the Provincial Treasurer should 
 authorize all expenditures, these sums 
 were spent without reference to him, and 
 there wM nothing to show whether pro- 
 E®j?J''^P~P®"7' Not a single dollar 
 had the Treasurer's authority for Its pay- 
 ment. 
 
 Proceeding with the discussion of the 
 estlioates for the next fiscal year, Hon. 
 Mr. Jones stated that the amottnt for 
 
 CIVIL OOVBRNHENT 
 
 
 was *m055, 
 ed In 1886-6 
 
 the amount expend- 
 as the cost for 
 
17 
 
 Ible'to tell with 
 
 had recelradii- 
 >e tnuuuiotioiuof 
 ot paper, many ot 
 hese were found, 
 
 of them thrown 
 eon holes and 
 a oflloea. From 
 books bad to 
 «upiod a groat 
 most unpleasant 
 'onsaotions have 
 nd expsvss envel- 
 nts aKgregatlnsr 
 ) not acoou ted 
 they should have 
 oeipt. Those we 
 per and credited 
 lent. We have 
 ncy-Qenoral that 
 
 directly to the 
 V respectfully re- 
 
 prevent the pos- 
 e extraordinary 
 ia dealing with 
 ts." 
 
 isemoDeyB was 
 Btion 132 of thfi 
 provided that 
 listing of ten 
 on to the 
 icial Treasurer 
 of all fines col- 
 3hlef Inspector 
 1 keep a due 
 »id fund shall 
 
 every year by 
 !ial Treasurer 
 spectors shall 
 oseis incurred 
 this fond ver- 
 lon; provided 
 t sum exceed- 
 redit of the 
 tor shall de- 
 hat amount to 
 al Treasurer, 
 I part of the 
 )ul shall form 
 >ut again by 
 
 required for 
 ovided always 
 n connection 
 t the consent 
 Incial Treas- 
 
 to have re- 
 amounting to 
 eash on hand 
 
 and paid by 
 A Treasurer 
 ugh the act 
 surer should 
 
 these sums 
 a to him, and 
 whether pro- 
 single dollar 
 y for its pay- 
 
 ssion of the 
 I year, Hon. 
 loUnt for 
 
 srx 
 
 nt expend- 
 cost for 
 
 SSSg'i^fo. '•'• «iy«*»*°« had been 
 1229,80:84 or fS6,7fl8 more than it 
 was calculated to cost next year. The 
 total cost for the year ending June 30th 
 last, was 1267,113.42, exceeding what it 
 was proposed should be the cost for next 
 year by 194,068.42. In the session of 1888 
 a resolution was moved by Mr. Greenway, 
 seconded by Mr. Winram, that in the 
 opinion of the House the estimates could 
 be so reduced as to effect a saving 
 of at least f«),000. The resolution was 
 voted down, receiving the support of 
 only the "historical eight", MessrsV 6eU, 
 Conklln, Greenway, Hay, Jackson, Mar- 
 tin, Winram and YoAng. He (Hon. Mr. 
 Jones) had just shown that the Govern- 
 ment had made a reduction of 890,000 in- 
 stead of ?50,000 and he was quite sure 
 that the estimates were ample. 
 
 As to the moneys voted to go more di- 
 rectly to the interests of the people: first, 
 in the Provincial Secretary's Department, 
 P® ,oS5*i™*'® 'o>^ public schools 
 
 *85,000; in the present year 983,000; and 
 "®il75K ** '^■* proposed to give 9120,000, 
 °*'f%?^<"« ^*n was given last year, 
 and 960,000 more than the year before. 
 
 To electoral division acnricultural socie- 
 ties therewas given inlM5-6, 96,000; last 
 ZS^SJT'^'. *** y^^ **>e estimate was 
 90,uuu, and it was proposed to increase the 
 amount to 910,000. 
 
 For imm&raticn there was given la 1885 
 92,185; in 1^7 95,248: there was estlm^ 
 
 S^n'SL''*** y®** 97,500, and for next year 
 910,000. 
 
 The expenditure for drainage in 1885 6 
 was 927,800; in 1886-7,923,400; the estimate 
 for the present year was 925,000; and 
 it was proposed to devote to 
 this source next year 910,000 It was 
 not the intention of the Government to 
 continue the same system of drainage; 
 they did not consider it fair that those 
 portions of the Province not requiring 
 drains should be charged for dig- 
 ging drains in other parts where 
 there was necessity for them; but 
 instead it was intended to charge the pro- 
 perties benefitted, to have valuations 
 made and debentures issued on the lands, 
 spreading over a number of years, so that 
 the owners would be enabled to overtake 
 the payments without being burdened. 
 As the lands would 
 
 BBCOHB so MUCH HORB VALVABLB 
 
 if drained the additional producto would 
 more than pay the difference. It was not 
 proposed to dig any political drainB,as the 
 Attomey-GoBenil observed. 
 
 It was proposed to give 960,000 in cash 
 as direct aid to rural municinalities: and 
 in additipn, to give special aid amoimting 
 to 911>400. This special aid was the 
 amount to be collected from cheM. &N. 
 W. and Man. S. W. Col. Bailways, being 3 
 per cent, on account of gross earnings; it 
 would be distributed to the particular 
 municipalities affected by the land locked 
 up, and in proportion to the amounts of 
 
 such lands which would be averaged by 
 the Government. 
 
 The estimate tor bridges and pub- 
 lic works was 920,000 for next 
 year, or somewhat lees luan the estimate 
 for this year, which was 930,006, but was 
 considerably more than the sum expend- 
 ed in 1885 6. 
 
 The total amounts of the grante thus 
 gone over, of money going directly to the 
 Mpple, were, for next year, 9287,793.50; for 
 18^, 9187,034.52; for 1888-7, 9199,031.87; 
 and for the present year, 9214,000, 
 
 The documents showed how difficult it 
 was to make an audit. In connection with 
 the audit of the Queen's Printer's 
 department, it was generally known that 
 
 THE LATE MR, BOaRDBAU, 
 
 Queen's printer, departed about the time 
 of the election in LaVerandrye. Intimat- 
 ing to the Government, it was said, that 
 he bad a very nice horse he proposed to 
 drive out and bring in the state of the 
 poll. Whi<?i he was out on his holiday 
 the Provincial Treasurer was writing a 
 strong letter urging him to pay in amounts 
 long since past due; but it was 
 to be resetted that the letter never 
 reached nlm as he never returned 
 with the result of the election. 
 
 A report from the special auditors in 
 reference to the accounts of the Queen's 
 printer, stated that he had made no en- 
 t^s at all from June 30, 1885, co Feb. 14, 
 1888, the department was directly under the 
 minister who could scarcely help being 
 cognisant of the facts. The total amount 
 of the defalcation was computed at 913,- 
 291.91, which result was attributed to 
 there having been no book-keeping in 
 the department for three or four years • 
 
 Taking up the head of 
 
 MISOBLLANBOC8 EXPENDITURBB 
 
 Hon. Mr. Jones discussed tbe followinK 
 items :— Interest on loan 975,000; refunds 
 91,000; for completing a new wing of the 
 Lunatic Asylum 910,000, of which 94,- 
 000 was practically a revote; cost of 
 civil government, 9173,0&'-; public service. 
 9^,793.50; miscelfaneoub, 9114,700, and 
 other sums making a total estimated ex- 
 penditure for next year, of 9578,128 50, 
 against a total of estimated receipteof 
 9618,105.74. After providing for 995,000. 
 greater enienditure to go to the public, 
 and providing for tbe interest on the 91,- 
 600,000 loan, 975,000, there was sUU a sur- 
 plus of estimates of receipto over expendi- 
 tures of 937,907. Lastyear the Government 
 had power to make a loan of a mil- 
 lion dollars; but no estimates of 
 the expenditure of that amount or for the 
 
 navmant'' **f Intowaat- n» tt- »4 men /vwt — 
 
 provided. In considering the receipte and 
 expeiMlitures and com]Mring the present 
 with the next fiscal year, it 
 would be desirable to keep the 
 loan in view. It was not necessary 
 that this should be placed in the esti- 
 mates; but the public in reading would 
 better understand the estimates and ex- 
 
 ■it 
 
I i 
 
 1« 
 ^^^yr^A^ii'^^rU\i£^\... "-"O WORKS. 
 
 WM tii^iJi''** committee of suppl^ He 
 h" sS^ThivVnl^ ''''*£"'* ?« ha resumed 
 houw ' °*^'"** ^P°'^«° four and a halt 
 
 
 -leascngers, em- 
 ployes, eto 3,7M0O 
 
 4,800 00 3,180 00 
 
 '^'^^ •_ 35.»S 8g 35.265 61 »;i?6~00 
 
 Grand totals .1229.841 84 $267,763 42 «173,06S 00 
 PnbUc Bervioe. 
 
 GRANTS MADK DIRECTLY TO PBOPLK. 
 
 For the benefit of the reader the fltrurp-* 
 
 Po^*^n*^^^^y ^^' '^on** arepre^ntcd he. 
 
 low in a condensed and tabulated form -t 
 
 Cost of Olvll Oovermnent. 
 
 *^''?S2i^«<' KxMnded Estimated 
 
 iStATior • '^• 
 
 Mintliifir and 
 
 Audit Office.... 4,i«66 
 i^^ru'i 3.623 78 
 
 7,211 15 
 2,508 04 
 
 21,550 00 
 4,650 00 
 1.600 00 
 
 30,176 85 
 3,09145 
 3,936 14 
 
 Total 166.794 60 
 
 EXKCUTIVK COUNCir,. 
 
 I"^™ « 2.34250 4J0OOO 
 
 ^*Pen«ea 418 31 14,912 27 
 
 9,600 00 
 2.235 00 
 3.300 00 
 
 Total ,.f 2,760 81 
 
 Salaries i O^Sfw^^w;, ,n 
 
 Expenses.. .•.•.::• ^M I^ ^ 
 
 Total 117,128 39 ll^rSQ 
 
 *''P«'»8es 5,600 78 9.840 U 
 
 72.016 33 42,935 OO 
 
 2,800 00 
 1.050 00 
 
 19.242 27 3.850 00 
 
 6.900 00 
 2,425 00 
 
 ,325 00 
 
 3,430 00 
 9.050 00 
 
 Grant to E. J. **^ 
 Man. Rifle 
 
 Hil&ISo. ''^ "» 
 
 Aitt-briii '^"^ 
 
 PeMioc-k *•«»«' 
 
 Pr&Fir^: ^•"«'«' 
 Board of Ag- 
 
 Prov'ncl Ex- 
 BuUding... 
 EleaDlv.Ag. 
 ^SocieUeB?!. 
 Dairy In- 
 struction . . 
 Prov'no'l Ex- 
 hibition.... 
 Genl Statis- 
 tics 
 
 Aid to cheese 
 „ factories... 
 Collection of 
 , Exhibits... 
 Hospitals.... 
 Children's 
 Homes 
 
 7.410 41 
 
 6.000 00 
 
 521 20 
 
 1887. 
 
 260 00 
 250 00 
 
 1.000 00 
 10,196 00 
 
 2,600 00 
 
 9.010 00 
 
 6.300 00 
 
 2.292 05 
 
 6.000 00 
 
 250 00 
 250 OU 
 
 2,000 00 
 
 9.721 75 11,879 13 
 
 Total 113.400 78 17.87130 
 
 Diseases of ani- '^ "7 
 
 Hffi-idmtais-. '•»'«'* «•«»« 
 
 Main tent 
 
 950 00 
 3..')00 00 
 
 Total 22.570 62 19.107 63 
 
 ATTORNEy-OENBRAL.^ 
 
 Salaries .■'TfSooo 
 
 Expenses 4' 079 oh 
 
 Court of Queen's ' 
 
 Surrogate and 
 
 liiw?^!?, ^SJ^ *-«9 37 
 i*n^ titles offl'e 7.918 91 
 Crown proeeou- 
 
 ^ tions 13!U9 1t 
 
 ♦Matatenanw if ' " 
 opurt houses, 
 sheriff, consta- 
 ble, treasurer, 
 ate. ... 
 
 Provin'oiii pb". 
 Uce and llcens' 
 
 Police magi8tr.8. 1,843 21 
 
 7,122 00 
 3,038 23 
 
 16,326 08 11,600 00 
 
 Penance 
 
 Asylum.... 
 Maintenance 
 court houses 
 and gaols... 
 Inspections. . 
 Advertising 
 _&;^Printing. 
 . __ I Drainage... 
 1,000 00 Bridgraa n d 
 750 00 1 Pnlwi?^ 
 Aid to muni- 
 „oipalitie8.. 
 Special A i d 
 municipali- 
 ties 
 
 Education... 
 
 12.750 00 
 
 6860 00 
 1,200 00 
 
 3.834 16 
 7.384 60 
 
 2.170 00 
 12,350 00 
 
 9.232 24 3.400 00 
 
 2.195 60 
 22.148 09 
 
 2,310 78 
 4,787 05 
 
 43195 
 27,689 16 
 
 91127 45 
 
 1.101 50 
 
 00,000 00 
 
 10,000 00 
 250 00 
 
 500 00 
 
 1.000 00 
 
 1,000 00 
 8,848 50 
 
 1,250 00 
 10,000 00 
 
 23,646 00 
 
 6,350 00 
 1,000 00 
 
 3»,l4j GO 
 
 6,027 12 
 2,000 00 
 
 32,000 00 
 3,200 00 
 
 1.900^ I Lith 
 I ^ Bon' 
 
 Wi.viai^-M ^"ttuar^l^Etis? .«, „ 
 
 6,248 94 
 24,079 61 
 
 7,830 18 
 6.648 43 
 
 ^141 67 60 00 
 23.452 96 110,000 00 
 
 17,752 70 20,000 00 
 
 60.000 00 
 
 66.000 miOTOW 
 
 '^°^'^ • 167, 034 52 11 99,031 07 |287.793 60 
 
 MiaotiUaneons Ezpanditura. 
 
 Blections....! ^^' mtJi^An . A^ 
 
 JSferlSt*°Tn* "•"»« W« '--'-"^ 
 
 debentures 
 Hslf-hrftf.d 
 mortg^os.' 11.240 94 «.077 is 
 
 Museum 26S 30 "•"'/» 
 
 Buildhigasyl 
 «fci:LV;g 62.87189 35.870 69 
 
 laooouo 
 
 75,060 00 
 J^O.000 00 
 
 1.20000 
 
 3.500 00 
 
1ft 
 
 .763«2fl73,0a(00 
 
 Oovt. House 
 
 Building Jm- 
 migration 
 
 , offloe 422 00 
 
 Indian and 
 
 OolonialBx- 
 
 hiblUon.... 454 40 
 Marriagelilc- 
 
 cense Fees. . . 3,323 00 2,380 00 
 Ke'wndB 1,30105 92177 1.000 00 
 
 Total f M885 0» IM-mTw f 114,700 OU 
 
 B«o»pitnlatlon. 
 ClvilGovern- 
 
 ment... 12^.844 84 1267,113 42 fm.ftW 00 
 
 Pub. Service 167,034 68 180,031 67 287,793 30 
 
 Mu*S'}**f "*1 ^^'^ ^ *'**^ ^^ "*'^*' ** 
 Comtniu^. /P^^ bymuniclpaUUea{ 1,400 00 
 
 Ry.AndLand 
 "«Pt 650 00 1,250 00 
 
 Total ■ »491.761 45 $563,043 21 1578,198 50 
 
 Revenue 1485,325 80 1506,880 30 tmjwn 
 
 Note. -The estimates of 1888 are not oonipar- 
 od, from the fact that the Norqnay and Hiu-ri- 
 ?•£.« **"l?'®'i*"..''«'"®.*" power about six and 
 a half months, followed by the Oreenway Gov- 
 omment Hence a fair comparison could not 
 be arrived at. 
 
 MR. NORQUAY. 
 
 As RBfORTEO UY THE "CaLL.' 
 
 Mr. Norquay in rising to reply said lie 
 could not disguise from himself or from 
 the House the fact that he felt in a posi- 
 tion scarcely ever precedonted by any one 
 who had at any time occupied the position 
 of First Miubter. He deplored the ab- 
 sence of his former colleagues, who should 
 have been in their places in the House to 
 take their share of any credit or any 
 blame that might be f^ven in respect of 
 the acts of the late ministry. He felt that 
 he stood alone on the floor of the He use, 
 deserted by those who should have been 
 beside him. to give an account of his 
 actions and to Dear the responsibilities. 
 In the course of the long exposition of Mr. 
 Jones in regard to the finding of the audi- 
 tors, that gentleman had nude much of 
 the state of affairs in the departmental 
 work of the late Government, but with 
 any government which remains for a long 
 time in office similar flaws might be 
 found. He regretted to learn, as he did 
 now for the first time, of certain trans- 
 actions by his colleagues, and if those 
 gentlemen could not make a satisfactory 
 explanation of the alleged misdeeds 
 he should be obliged to join in severe 
 condemnation of them. (Hear, hear.) 
 He would not dispute now the ac- 
 curacy of statements made by the Pro- 
 vincial Treasurer, but would await the 
 arrival of those who should be her© to ex- 
 plain thtm. He had watched gentlemen 
 opposite and had noticed theli' apparent 
 satisfaction as these alleged sciandals were 
 unearthed. It was but a fresh proof of 
 the fact that there was nothing so grati^- 
 ing to the olfactories of the true Grit as 
 the mistakes of their opponents. But 
 while in public life a man must be prepar- 
 ed to stand the rock. His every action is 
 watched and immediately the finger of 
 the public is pointed at a man he win find 
 that he must bear the opprobrium ofal- 
 iMced wrong-dotng at once. He is in s. 
 worse position thtm is a crimihal in cou^ 
 who is held to be innocent til he is 
 proven guilty. In public lifc »wever, 
 once dporobrinm is attached to a man he 
 is taken as guiltv. In regard to the pro- 
 posed policy of the Government, they were 
 making a pretense of practising economy. 
 
 Their economical ideas were in certain 
 quarters only, for while in respect of the 
 salaries of poor hard-working clerks who 
 had spent years in the country's 
 service they had taken delight in 
 lopping off in some cases fSOO, in 
 ?*5?'.. cases it was found favored 
 individuals had been rets' ied at in- 
 creased and munificent •lalaries. He refer- 
 red to the cases of the present master in 
 chancery and the prothonotary. In the 
 former a young man had just been ap- 
 pointed to the position and the salary re- 
 mained f 2,000 as it had been, while the 
 prothonotary who for a long time fliied 
 the position most satisfactorily and whose 
 duties are at least equal in importance to 
 those of the other, is to have his salary 
 very materially cut down and is to be put 
 upon a salary of $1,500. He contended 
 that a man who has served his country 
 faithfully for years should be kept in 
 office and the Attorney-General might 
 find that in making the change in the 
 master's office that instead of creating 
 greater efficiency he would only be causing 
 Inefficiencv. He saw no provision made 
 at all for those removed from offices where 
 they had Worked faithfully for ten or 
 twelve years. They have two or three 
 months notice and are then discharged 
 and having become drilled in a certain 
 class of work they may find great diffi- 
 culty in obtaining other employment. 
 When a man becomes a public servant he 
 is in a position which ne looks on as a 
 permanency, and It is unfair that he 
 should be suddenly deprived of office with- 
 out any retiring emolument. It was a 
 gross injustice that the services of an old * 
 servant should be dispensed with on 
 only one or two months warning and no 
 compaston given. It was an injustice to 
 those who had separated themselves from 
 any of the ordinary li ues of business and 
 
 ««a1<A«I mmmh ^U^L S„4. *. « .. 
 
 ...„.L_. .,j._,..i -..-ii- ayuiiiuiuitiin, lOT cne 
 lu^re to be deprived of their occupation 
 and it wa^ to. act for which the present , 
 Govern-.; -nt should be called to account. 
 The Pro«>acial Treasurer had produced an 
 audit of the accounts for years past but he 
 had shown only one side. All the wrong 
 that could be was hunted up and the very 
 
to 
 
 
 H 
 
 I 
 
 utmost made of It. Nothing at all had 
 been laid before the Hooae for which any 
 credit could be given to the last Govern- 
 ment. The statement of the Provincial 
 Treasurer had been most partisan and 
 most one-sided. They had been in search 
 of anything wrong in order to make use 
 of it forparty purposes. If any malfeasance 
 were discovered it afforded them a morsel to 
 roll under their tongues when addressing 
 the people. However, take any adminis- 
 tration long in power and it will be found 
 they haveat times madegrievous mistakes, 
 and he prophesied that before the present 
 Government were In power many years the 
 record of the past Government would be 
 very insignificant as compared with their 
 own. The Treasurer had pointed with a 
 
 great deal of unction to the resolution in 
 le estimated expenditure, but gentlemen 
 opposite would find that there was a 
 great difference between what was esti- 
 mated and the actual expend It v re. A year 
 ago when his Kovemment asked for a 
 vote of 91.000,000, the then opposition 
 stated that 9760,000 should be quite suffl- 
 cient, but immediately they get into office 
 they ask for a million and a half. This 
 was the first illustration of the difference 
 between the theories and practice of 
 hon. gentlemen opposite. When his gov> 
 ernment asked for that million dollar vote 
 they were fighting for a principle which 
 was denied to us at Ottawa, and they 
 were fighting in a manner that gentlemen 
 opposite could not sxceed. At that time 
 the policy of the Ottawa authorities was 
 antagonistic to any branch to the bor i- 
 dary. In 1887 the policy of both the lio- 
 minion Grovemment and the C.P.R. was 
 antagonistic, but since then that policy 
 has been altered and they have promisea 
 its discontinuance t;0 the delegates who 
 went to Ottawa to witness the consum- 
 mation of the bargain. In his communi- 
 cation to Mr. Greenway Sir John says he 
 will not advise the'disallowance of any bill 
 similar in principle to that of the Red 
 River Valley Railway. The C.P.R. had 
 offered to lease to the Government the 
 Emerson branch, and the Pembina Moun- 
 tain branch and Manitoba South- 
 western Railwav, so the Government, if 
 they choose, can secure the competition 
 which they claim to desire. If such 
 is the case, and he believed it was, 
 he would like to know where there was 
 , any justification in issuing debentures for 
 building the Red River Valley Railway 
 from the boundary to Winnipeg, and 
 thence to Portage la Prairie to suit the 
 Atcomey-Grenerai. Are the interests of 
 an individual to be paramount to the gen- 
 eral interests? The C. P. R. have also 
 promised if this offer is accepted that they 
 will extend the Souris branch. If the 
 Government now decline this offer tliey 
 will place themselves in a position to be 
 condemned by the people. In reference 
 to Mr. Jones' statement that the late CU>v. 
 ernment d{d not use every exertion to 
 build the R. R. V. R. Mr. Norquay shows 
 
 that the Treasurer had taken as authority 
 for his assertion the statement of Mr. 
 Drummond, the man who Is now demand- 
 ing 946,000 for alleged services. The late 
 Government had told that gentleman in 
 most unmistakeable language that his 
 offer would be accepted. TThey were deal- 
 ing with a gentleman on whom they 
 thought they could rely, but subsequent 
 to the acceptance of the offer his princi- 
 pals finding that the Dominion Govern- 
 ment was opposed to it withdrew and re- 
 fused to consummate the bargain. It had 
 often been stated by gentlemen opposite 
 that he (Norquay) was in collusion with 
 the Government at Ottawaandthe C.P.R., 
 but he denied that most emphatically. 
 After the failure in respect of ttie offer 
 made by Mr. Drummond, representing 
 Morton, Rose & Co., and after the failure 
 to close an offer from Mr. Allan, for Mc- 
 Arthur, Boyle and Allan, and being in a 
 position to pay claims then due his Gov- 
 ernment had said they had all they want- 
 ed till October. He and Mr. LaRiviere 
 went to New York in August hist. Just 
 at this point he referred to certain rumors 
 which bad circulated among friends of the 
 present Government that he (Norquay) 
 had boodled the bonds, and that he would 
 probably not return, and he mve an ac- 
 count of how .the bonds had oeen can- 
 celled. 
 
 Mr. Jones said that the Government had 
 given countenance to no such rumors. 
 He had found the bonds properly can- 
 celled in the office of the clerk of the 
 council. 
 
 Mr. Norquay— It has been stated that I 
 was a tool of the Dominion (jtovemment. 
 
 Mr. McKenzie— That's our opinion. 
 
 Mr. Nor4uay— I cannot be responsible 
 for the vagaries of gentlemen opposite, 
 especially when they border on lunacy. 
 Continuing, he reviewed his trip to Chic- 
 ago, Toronto and New York when, after 
 repeated interviews, they found it impos- 
 sible to float the bonds. They were not 
 security eagerly sought after. He also 
 recounted the negotiations with Mr. 
 Lockhart Gordon, of Toronto. There was, 
 however, « great stringoncy in the money 
 market, ana it was impossible to nego- 
 tiate the bonds. He had letters from 
 Messrs. Wiman, tVillard, Oakes and 
 others regretting their inability to help 
 him, and these letters proved how close 
 was the state of the New York money 
 market when he was there. The hon. 
 gentleman opposite had not now the same 
 difflculties to contend with; they had not 
 to suffer the same espionage or the same 
 influences to fight against. It was no 
 wonder thev were able to place the bonds 
 on the market. The wonder was that 
 t.hfly had no* realized mora. With all the 
 present advantages, it was not at all sur- 
 prising that our bonds should now realize 
 108. They should have realized over par 
 at four per cent. He quoted from New 
 York papers to show the stringency of 
 the money market when he was t£ere. 
 
 ■% 
 
di 
 
 aa authority 
 aent of Mr. 
 aow demand- 
 is. The late 
 entlemaa In 
 ge that his 
 ey were deal- 
 whom they 
 subsequent 
 ' his prlnci- 
 tion Govern- 
 rew and re- 
 gain. It had 
 aen opposite 
 illusion with 
 id the C.P.R., 
 smphatically. 
 of the offer 
 representing 
 irthe failure 
 dlan, for Mc- 
 d being in a 
 due his Gov 
 11 they want- 
 r. LaBlviere 
 It last. Just 
 rtain rumors 
 friends of the 
 le (Norquav) 
 hat he would 
 e eave an ac- 
 d Deen can- 
 
 'emment had 
 uch rumors, 
 properly can- 
 clerk of the 
 
 stated that I 
 
 ovemment. 
 
 opinion. 
 
 responsible 
 en opposite, 
 
 on lunacy. 
 )rlp to Chic- 
 when, after 
 nd it impos- 
 ly were not 
 r. He also 
 I with Mr. 
 
 There was, 
 n the money 
 e to nego- 
 stters from 
 Oakes and 
 lity to help 
 i now close 
 York money 
 The hon. 
 lOw the same 
 hey had not 
 or the same 
 It was no 
 !e the bonds 
 )r was that 
 With all the 
 it at all sur- 
 now realize 
 ed over par 
 
 from New 
 
 ringency of 
 
 was there. 
 
 Be alluded to these circumstances 
 to place himself right, because gen- 
 tlemen who, by a cnam of fortuitous 
 cirenmst«noes,havestepped into the lucky 
 consummation have been cliUminir a great 
 deal of credit. In regard to the Hudson 
 Bay railway aid debentures his Govern- 
 ment had been asked if they would grant 
 distance to that road and had replied in 
 the affirmatiive, provided forty miles were 
 built that year. After construction had 
 been proceeded with the president of the 
 company wrote that Mann & Holt, the 
 contractors, were entitled to the 92o6,000 
 bonds, having completed their work. He 
 reported to the council recommending that 
 half the bonds should be retained until 
 the road was completed and his suggestion 
 was adopted. The balance 912^900, was 
 ample to secure the compliance with the 
 act in order to secure the land grant, and 
 it was only after receiving the fullest as- 
 surance that the land grant had been 
 placed to the credit of the Province that 
 the bonds were finally handed over. He 
 placed before the House the various stages 
 of these transactions. Mr. LaBlviere went 
 to Ottawa to urge compliance with the re- 
 quest that the land grant be placed to the 
 credit of the Province, and he had sent a 
 telegram saying, "land grant setUed," 
 and another, "you can safely pass order 
 for delivery bonds Mann & Holt." This 
 was the authority on which he (Noiquay) 
 and his colleagues here acted in passing 
 the order-ln-conncil. Mr. LaBlviere 
 honestly believed from assurances he had 
 received in Ottawa that the land grant 
 would be handed over. Owing to unfor- 
 tunate circumstances, work on the road 
 had not proceeded as contemplated. In 
 reaard to the auditor's report he defended 
 the action of the prothonotary in regard 
 to interest on suitors' funds as being per- 
 fectly regular and j ustifiable. The T^reas- 
 urer had made a great ado about reforms 
 in the management of his office, and how 
 he was going to have statements made up 
 every fifteen days, but he would find that 
 some time, when absent from his office for 
 a month or two, that little discrepancies 
 would occur as had been discovered in ac- 
 counto of the late Government, and for 
 which he (Mr. Jones) would hardly like to 
 be held responsible. Much had been made 
 of the terms on which the last loan had 
 been floated, but it should be remembered 
 that in negotiating debentures no cost 
 falls upon Province. All costs attending 
 the sale of debentures must be repaid by 
 the company or the companies assisted so 
 that the small coeto of the recent negotia- 
 tions as compared with his own really 
 amounted to nothing so far as the Pro- 
 vince was oonoeraed. Considerable stress 
 
 
 --3vt t.tzat iin uau uvcr- 
 
 drawn his salary by $50. This must great 
 ly shock the strict ideas of propriety of 
 gentlemen on the other side. He had re- 
 signed office on the 25th of the month and 
 was paid up to the end of the month, and 
 he thought that after eighteen years' ser- 
 
 vice he was doing no great sin In taking 
 salary to the end of the month when he 
 resigned. 
 
 It oeing 24 o'clock, Mr. Norquay mo\ ed 
 the adjournment of the debate, and on 
 motion of the Premier the House adjourn- 
 ed till Saturday. 
 
 Mr. Norquay rising to continue the de- 
 bate on the budget said he desired to 
 draw a few comparisons between the pol- 
 icy followed by the late Government in 
 reference to the construction of the Bed 
 River Vallev Ballroad and that advocated 
 anu adopted by the present Government. 
 After having proceeded with the construc- 
 tion of the railway to a considerable ex- 
 tent it was found by the late Government 
 that they were unable to float the bonds 
 for reasons he had already submitted to 
 the House, and having the main object in 
 view, that of the construction of the rail- 
 way, they had resorted to the only alter- 
 native thac had preHonted itself, that of 
 calling into requisition the services of a 
 company organized under the General 
 Railway Act of Manitoba. With this end 
 in view he had opened negotiations while 
 in New York with what was known as 
 the Manitoba Construction Company, hav- 
 ing arrived at what he believed would be 
 a saticfactory policy with regard to 
 divesting the Government of any 
 further responsibility in connection 
 with the railway and believing such 
 to be in the best interests of the country. 
 It was scarcely necessary to refer to 
 the contract subsequently entered into 
 with Mr. Holt, representing the Manito 
 ba Construction company, and would 
 simply sav that this gentleman was satis- 
 fied tney had ample means and had en- 
 listed eight or ten of the wealthiest men 
 in the United States in the enterprise. 
 The Government were satisfied that bv 
 this arrangement the interest of the Pro- 
 vince would be sufficientlv guarded, that 
 the people would not be called upon for 
 any large outlay,and that the rates charg- 
 ed oy the company would be such as 
 could be modified from time to time. At 
 the last session of the Legislature, having 
 in view the difficulties that might inter- 
 vene and believing the people to be unan- 
 imously in favor of the road, the House 
 passed a bill by which they could guaran- 
 tee intereat at 5 per centon 8550,000 worth 
 of bonds of any company that chose to 
 undertake the construction of the rail- 
 way. Naturally the parties who under- 
 took the construction would wish to avail 
 themselves of any special privileges 
 extant, and the provisions of the con- 
 tract provided that the Government would 
 hold them harmless from any litigation 
 or any expense arising from obstruc- 
 txuu uy citncr the reaerol vrOVerriiuttul 
 ortheC. P.B. Therefore they h«d asked 
 that in the contract they were making 
 with the then government, that this 
 9550,000 of bonds should be guaranteed by 
 the Province and that the 5 percent, 
 promised iu the act should be available 
 
H 
 
 I 
 
 tor the parpom of enhancing the value ot 
 (lieHe bonda, but thf^ it would not limit 
 tilt! ^n only to the isam, ' bonds tx> the 0x> 
 tent of |5BO,000. Now ,ie Govenament 
 h*d also 6'iiaranteed to them the rtiitht of 
 H»a)' jnd be had sappoaed puttiuf 'be 
 uiAluua'm value upon the road that it 
 would u(Ot entail upon the Province any 
 Bum exceeding f 20,000. The interest on 
 the 1660,000 at 6 per cwnt., iiapposinK the 
 worst did arrive, supposinR the Province 
 had to meet this interest, sapposlnar the 
 road did not pay, wonld only be977,600. 
 The opinion had always been expressed by 
 members opposite that Immediately con- 
 nection was made with Winnipeg to the 
 international boundary, any road or any 
 company in charjie of a road that was for- 
 tunate enough to have control of that en- 
 terprise wonid find that the earnings of 
 the road would more than snfflce to pay 
 for the attendant expense in the mainten- 
 ance and running thereof. And this opin- 
 ion still prevailed inasmuch as the Pro- 
 vincial Treasurer in his speech had eetl- 
 raated, as one of the receipts of the R. R 
 V. R., 935,000. So the arrangement enter- 
 ed Into with Ml. Kolt, according to the 
 opinion expressed by the Proyinclal Trea- 
 surer, would have resulted in no cost 
 at all to the Government, but the fact that 
 the road being put In operation would int 
 an actual Increase of 87,000 in the rerei^ m 
 over the expenditure In connection there- 
 with. Therefore he believed, taking all 
 these things into consideration, that the 
 policy pursued by the late Government 
 was one that, had It been allowed to go 
 into eftect. would have resulted in greater 
 and more beneficial results to theProvince 
 than the policy advocated by the present 
 Government. There would then have been 
 no necessity for Increasing the Provincial 
 debt one and a half million dollars. Con- 
 HCtmently, if he stood alone, he would feel 
 lit ma duty to move an amendment to the 
 concurrence in the estimates, and he be- 
 lieved it was the duty of all the members 
 on the Opposition to place themselves <m 
 record against such extravamnce. Tt 
 would appear from the action of the L >v. 
 emment tn raising this loan that all their 
 promises as to economy made In Opposi- 
 tion had been left behind when coming 
 Into power. These were the gentlemen 
 who were prepared, according to their own 
 ataioroent, to carry out in government 
 whftf -ey advocated in Opposition. He 
 certplt , T -1 .1 see "ery great discrepancies 
 
 betw«5eii 
 tice, aa«^ I.- 
 
 but tt>'<< 
 be welj ,^l^^, i 
 would £ih<". 
 coating t 
 they gave 
 
 >fe8i'!r ns and their prao 
 
 'v<,<-i no' '.ie sligbtest doubt 
 
 » "jn ':\'.ii!.v policy came to 
 
 " J.^r iiie countr^ .;hat. they 
 
 r . tivlthstandlUt^- ^ue sugar- 
 
 •<wy v,.>ra applying to the pills 
 
 s the people, they would not be 
 
 f'i 
 i.f 
 
 token in Lhc easy manner they expected. 
 According to the remarks of the Provincial 
 Treasurer when all the banks refused to 
 allow them credit, he would wish the 
 House to infer that his individual finan- 
 cial standing had rescued the Province 
 
 from the slough Into which It had been 
 left by his predeceaaors. Did not that 
 gentleman for one moment imagine that 
 It might perhaps be only the handle to his 
 name that had enabled him under all the 
 circumstances to obtain credit tor the Pro- 
 vince. Did not that gentleman for one 
 moment suppoM that it was the fact of 
 being able to write after Lyman M. Jones 
 the words "Provincial iWsurer" that 
 gave him the standing by which he was 
 ^bled to raise money on the credit of 
 the Province. He could scarcely imagine 
 a man having such pride as Jonoa must 
 be possesse^i of when he would he would 
 (five that House to believe It was himself, 
 Livman M. Jones, had secured for the P»... 
 vince a line of credit, when his predf , ,* 
 ■OJ5 In pflBce had been unable to oecure It. 
 Bir. McKen«le-He got It aU the same, 
 Mr. Norquay said there were a great 
 many people who believed in the princl- 
 P'?.?\?f'*. brooms, &c. In connection 
 with this he would !lke to remark that 
 while the Government delighted to place 
 the i^vlnoe in a posltloi. whereby she 
 would soon have to resort to direct taxa- 
 tlom to meet her liabilities, what did we 
 find? Had they due regard to the feelings 
 of those upon whom thla burden of ra- 
 sponaibillty would be imposedf What did 
 we find by their disfranchising act? Did 
 we^flnd that they selected gentlemen 
 In this country representing property to 
 elect the people who should represent 
 them on the floor of the House? No. On 
 the other hand, they took those parties 
 who were irresponsible and who would 
 only take deUght in inducing the Execu- 
 tive of the day to be as extravagant as 
 ruble because whatever money might 
 spent recklessly might fall among 
 themselves who had notmng to contribute 
 towards the liquidation of the debt that 
 would bo thus accumulated. And those 
 who in many cases were large contribut- 
 ors were deprived of a say as to who 
 should be their nilem. He believed 
 .?F_./"®. •"'•= >'* i nr'Tlsing mar 7 
 
 Individuals so \ ,. ..nalifled >v 
 intelligence, by pr'ip \- find Int ' 
 eats in the in:,i?..r .- . , one that 
 wotUd never stauu Ue test of public scru- 
 tiny and public opinion in the Province. 
 It might be said it was a step in advance, 
 but they must always remember that In 
 all these matters there must be a certain 
 amount of conservatism preserved. We 
 must not allow the liresponslble Individ- 
 ual, never mind how respectable he might 
 be, to manipulate and manage elections 
 In audi a wav that they by their Influence 
 should be able t6 set at naught the Influ- 
 ence and actions of those who were 
 equally interested in so far as the main- 
 tenance of good government was con. 
 cerued. and who were more interested 
 when taxation or responsibility fell on a 
 community. 
 
 Mr. McKenzie—1 should like the hon. 
 member to understand that I pay fifteen 
 times more taxes than he does. 
 
 
it had been 
 M not thfti 
 nugiDe that 
 analo to his 
 .nder all tho 
 for the Pro- 
 man for one 
 » the tact of 
 ui M. JoneH 
 Rurer" that 
 ilch he wao 
 e credit of 
 )ly imagine 
 ron<M luuat 
 li he would 
 as bltnseli', 
 for tiie Pro- 
 Is predf ocH 
 to oecure it. 
 file same, 
 re a groat 
 the princl- 
 oonnection 
 ntark that 
 sd to place 
 liereby she 
 irect taxa- 
 at did we 
 :he feellngb 
 den of re- 
 
 What did 
 
 act? Did 
 gentlemen 
 roperty to 
 
 represent 
 No. On 
 «e parties 
 rho would 
 <he Exeou- 
 ivagant as 
 aey might 
 all among 
 contribute 
 debt that 
 A.nd those 
 
 contribut- 
 M to who 
 e believed 
 ling mary 
 lifled ty 
 ad int *. ■ 
 
 one that 
 abllc Hcru- 
 
 ProTince. 
 a advance, 
 erthat in 
 ) a certain 
 rved. We 
 le individ- 
 s he might 
 
 elections 
 r influence 
 
 the inilu- 
 vho were 
 the main. 
 
 waa con. 
 interested 
 fell on a 
 
 the hon. 
 >ay fifteen 
 
 18 
 
 Mr. NoM«uy-rt that member were In 
 a public ofllce as long as I have Ix^en and 
 JnoKed by the property he had ao( nrau- 
 lated he would liavea very small U, i to 
 pay indeed. I am not ashamed to May be- 
 fore this assemblage that my responsibili- 
 ties with regard to property are not large, 
 but whatever property I have I may say 
 has been honestly earned. It is little but 
 it is Bufflcient to satisfy my ambition, 
 ^y ambition has not been in the direction 
 of accumulating wealth; my ambition has 
 been to try and serve my conntry faith- 
 fullv and I believe I have done it to the 
 satisfaction of the people, notwithstand- 
 ing the assertions or my opponents. 
 There was another thing which had been 
 very much advocated by gentlemen on 
 the (xovernment side, and that was that 
 there should be competition in all matters 
 of public business. Those gentlemen who 
 had made the submission of tenders a car- 
 dinal plank in their platform so that pub- 
 lic works or public printing should not be 
 let without competition l)eing invited. 
 But he had been surprised to And tiiat 
 Mr. Jones in his remarks on the subject 
 did not seem to realize that he was re- 
 flecting upon a supporter of the Govern- 
 ment of which he was a member. It was 
 at least strange that that gentlemen cid 
 not have the delicftcy to have spared that 
 member's feelings. 
 
 Mr. Jones— Hew to the line let the chips 
 fall where they may. 
 
 Mr. Norquay— I hope a good bigchip will 
 fall on the member for South Winnipeg. 
 (L.<vughter.)Under the late Government it 
 had been deemed necessary to call for ten- 
 ders for the public printing and tenders 
 were submitted. And in this respect he 
 might say, it would not have been doing 
 Justice to the printing establishments in 
 this Province had they asked for tenders 
 all over Rostem Canada and the United 
 Statea. They had therefore sent notifica- 
 tion to the different ofilces in the Province 
 which were competent to undertake the 
 work. Competition was secured and the 
 Government took tho lowest tender that 
 was offered. If those gentlemen could 
 not conceive why his Government had not 
 invited tenders from all over Canada, he 
 could not conceive how they Justified their 
 action in net calling for tenders at all and 
 handing the work over to a proniinent 
 supporter of tlielrs. Possibly the work 
 was being done at a reduced rate, but did 
 that expedienpy— he could call it by no 
 other name— justify the action of the 
 Government? Was that hewing to the 
 line let the chips fall where they may? It 
 was found now they had come into power, 
 notwithstanding all their nrotes- 
 tations when in opposition, ~ tluit 
 they were prepared to hide their 
 light under a bushel for a time, 
 to wander away from the path of recti- 
 tude because it was expedient to do so. 
 Their scruples were now being thrown to 
 one side, and when they had been in 
 power some time he expected they (the 
 
 OppoofHon) would be able to unearth 
 some of tliosfi things which the Govern- 
 ment would I. ^mr have eoii<-ealed and 
 not ventilated .uivway until after the 
 general elections. They wore now trying 
 totiurryon these elections with all pos- 
 sible celerity for fear tho confidence they 
 imagiu3d th« people ^»d in them might 
 be discovered to be htuttd on a false foun- 
 dation. He had beeit very mucb amuned 
 at the rriticlsm submitted by the Provin- 
 cial Treasurer in reference to the extrava- 
 gance of the (Government in utilizing 
 telephones. Ho beli(>vtHl he was credited 
 with an expenditure of something like 
 f 58 becftune he used to have a telephoii*^ 
 in his house at the public expense. Re 
 lative to that his contention wan simply 
 that a man occuii vlng a prominent posi- 
 tion as first mibtster of a Government 
 and living so fur out of the city as 
 he then did— twe e miles away from 
 Winnipeg— was hi ly Justified in plac- 
 ing himself within r acn or communica- 
 tion of any parties desiring to consult him 
 on matters of public islness. He believ- 
 ed the cheese-paring ollcy, in which the 
 Government tried to Ind out the minut- 
 est causes or reasons or extravagence in 
 order to be able to chai j;o their opponents 
 with it. was simply -Idiculous. What 
 should hinder any gen leman, a member 
 of the Government, living in Winnipeg, 
 from having a telephone there at the ex- 
 pense of the country. 1 that gentleman 
 was not in his ofBce, if <e was at home, 
 was he not to be placed it communication 
 with any parties wishit jf to wait upon 
 him on public business ? Xniring the time 
 he had that telephone at I. s house in St. 
 Andrews— a period durli ^ wh]eh the 
 country was passing a erl' s— he was fre- 
 quently communicated wit. on matters of 
 urgent public import. Bi - it appealed 
 these advocates of econom^ who would 
 cut off 9600 from " n official's 
 salary, but who would m scruple to 
 saddle the coimtry with i,S0O,(x)O in- 
 debtedness, felt that they w ild not be 
 Justified in passing over this item with- 
 out making invidious reflecti> ns. He de- 
 sired to place on record that v« hen he was 
 
 down east trying to negotiate the Pro 
 vlncial bonds in order to raise funds for 
 the construction of the Bed Ri -er Valley 
 railroad, he iind received a lett<^ r from the 
 mayor of the city— now Provinc al Treas- 
 urer—stating that the city woui I be pre- 
 pared to raise §400,000 for tliis very im- 
 portant object. After having ailed in 
 the east he naturally came to th< conclu- 
 sion that on Ids return honaetothe city, 
 th st the people here, who were per- 
 hat ore than any interested in the con- 
 
 rsWw" vil XSL i.xim. jT^MA^Iy W\#Mau \iOf utOXilQ. 
 
 l>e to place at the disBoeal of his Govern- 
 ment—net a bonus — but the amount pro- 
 mised. 
 
 Mr. Jones inquired if he did not ask for 
 a bonus. 
 
 Mr. Norquay said on returning to the 
 city after failing to negotiate the bonds in 
 
; 
 
 24 
 
 Nl 
 
 i i I ! 
 
 <*• «•»<;. an «rdep In oouncU was pMsed 
 autbotlzing the imue of S3,000,000 deben- 
 tures of the Province. These debentures 
 the citT of Winnipeg wa8 asked Vb purch- 
 ase. After some cavilling they were re- 
 fused by parties known aatheoituens'com- 
 mittee and from the time that that trans- 
 pired he come to the conclusion that the 
 peoplA were not so seriously in eiumest 
 about buUding the R.B.V.B. as they were 
 determined in tryinj? to defeat the govern- 
 ment of the day. That was the main ob- 
 ject, and what did they find recorded by 
 the organ of tbat party as their views on 
 the ISth November. After they had scru- 
 tinized the contract, after the lawyers 
 selected' by themselves, had pronounced 
 upon It, and every possible alteration had 
 been made to meet their views, what did 
 this orgaiii, this subsidized orgjm of the 
 party say ? Why, '-let the Holt contract be 
 rfviected, have nothing to do with it; it is 
 an Iniquitous affair throughout, and the 
 Province can have nothing to do with it 
 without suffering greater loss than we 
 
 deawibe at weaMit." He b«UeT«d be had 
 made plain to the House that the adop- 
 tion of the Holt contract would have plac- 
 ed the Provlnceln the enjoyment of every 
 facility that the Government claimed they 
 could give the Province by the expend!- 
 feuro of f 1,600,000. Judged by their own 
 estimates on the receipts of this road,there 
 would have been a net profit of $7,000 to 
 98,000 in running the road over and above 
 any liability that could be incurred. But 
 it did not suit those parties to take that 
 contract, and consequently they rejected 
 it without any reason to Justin their ac- 
 tion, and if the province was to be saddled 
 with an extra debt of $1,600,000 it was 
 largely due to the citizens of Winnipeg. 
 To-day, notwithstanding their economical 
 protestatiui . the' Government were 
 plunging thit province into debt. "Like 
 what is said in Holy Writ, 'They strain at 
 a gnat and swallow a camel,' only in this 
 case it is not a camel, but I say they swal- 
 low an elephant." 
 
 THE PREifflER. 
 
 As Rbported by the "Free Press." 
 
 Hon. Mr. Greenway followed and was 
 received with prolonged applause. The 
 Premier was in good voice and got right 
 down to business without any pieUminary 
 flourishes. Yesterday he said he had lis- 
 tened to the Honorable !l^vincial Trea- 
 surer delivering a lucid statement of the 
 financial position of the Province— the 
 flrstfinancial statement be had ever heard 
 dur'ngthetenjearshe had been in the 
 House. He regretted that that exposition 
 contained statementa of facts which 
 should make every man calling himself a 
 Manitoban blush; he regrectedUiat he had 
 to say that the statements made by. the 
 Provincial Treasurer were true. They 
 had heard from the person who was (He 
 most prominent member of the other 
 House if he was not recognized as the 
 leader who had been the n^mier of the 
 Province, who, as he gloried In saying, 
 had been for 18 years In public 
 life In this Province, and who 
 should, therefore, be keen to vindicate 
 
 THE HONOR OF THE PBOVINCB; 
 
 bathe had stood upon his feet for two 
 hours and had not answered a single 
 charge that had been made againsthls 
 Government. He had noted one or two 
 minor things. He had referred to the 
 fact that he bad Ia4>roperly taken from 
 the treasury $50, and he thought It 
 should not be mentioned because It was 
 only 960. He had also spoken of oi3 
 other little matter— his having i% telechone 
 in his private house at the public expense. 
 These wero the only two matters he had 
 thought it worthy to speak of. Be did 
 not think It worth while to refer to the 
 matter of the Government, for ob{ecteof 
 their own, robbing the^peonle of .he Prov- 
 ince of $8,000, for which 
 
 THET NEVER GOT VALUE. 
 
 Very few could understand what these re- 
 porto were printed for; now It was known 
 they were printed for the purpose of let- 
 thigthe Government steai $8,000 with 
 which to bribe the people of this Province 
 at the general elections. Mr. Norquay 
 had undTertoken In 1886 to mislead him, 
 the member for Cypress, and a large and 
 Intelligent audience In Cypress, in respect 
 to this matter. He produced at that meet- 
 ing what he allseed to be a French copy 
 of that departmental report. At that time 
 he was confidant that Norquay was mis- 
 leading him, but as neither he nor the 
 audience undsrstood Fronch they could 
 not detect him; and so the Premier of the 
 Province, who prided himself on his 
 morality and his high position In the 
 state, succeeded in misleading the people 
 In referonce to this transaction. 
 
 Mr. Greenway said he would not speak 
 as he had Intended to If Mr. Norquay had 
 sat down after sneaking for ten minutes 
 or so on the preceeding night. He had 
 often in times past felt that John Norquay 
 was 
 
 MORE SINNED AGAINST 
 
 than sinnlnsc, and if anv one had a warm 
 place In his heart for that gentleman it 
 was himself. He had hoped that U was 
 through carelessness that Norquay had 
 allowed these nefarious transactions 
 without knowing anythbui about them. 
 
 TTa «Mr«a «p41lfv.#w 4-A mIwvm I.I.M. *U^ u. at. ^m 
 
 — — ••— ~ "-•-•••p r-,- s«rTr UIIJJ ijiTT VZ^xiiXM Ml. 
 
 of the doubt, out when he stood up there 
 for two hours and did not answer a single 
 charge then he deserved no con- 
 sideration from their side of the 
 House. He regretted that the 
 recent provincial treasurer (Mr. LaBIv- 
 lere) was not in his place; and that anoth- 
 
 I 
 
25 
 
 lUeved he had 
 iiat Uieadop- 
 iild have plac- 
 mept of every 
 I; claimed they 
 th« expendi- 
 by their own 
 biB road,there 
 at o( 97,(X)0 to 
 ver and above 
 ourred. But 
 
 to take that 
 they rejected 
 8ti^ their ac- 
 to be saddled 
 500.000 It was 
 >f Winnipeg, 
 if economical 
 iment were 
 debt. "Like 
 rhey scrain at 
 
 only in this 
 ay they swal- 
 
 LUE. 
 
 rhat these re- 
 bwas known 
 irposeof let- 
 98.000 with 
 bhis Province 
 ifr. Norqaay 
 oislead him, 
 la large and 
 w, in respect 
 at that meet- 
 French copy 
 At that time 
 ay was mis* 
 he nor the 
 1 they could 
 emier of the 
 iself on his 
 tion in the 
 ig the people 
 n. 
 
 dnot speak 
 ^Torquay had 
 ten minutes 
 t. He had 
 ohnNorquay 
 
 liada warm 
 entleroan it 
 1 that it was 
 brquay had 
 transactions 
 ibout them. 
 
 >^ U J31. -< 
 
 K>d up there 
 iwer a single 
 1 no con- 
 le of the 
 that the 
 (Mr. LaBtv- 
 1 that anoth- 
 
 » 
 
 
 I 
 
 er gentleman (Dr. Harrison) was not inhls 
 place either, as he had something totsay 
 to them not of a .complimentary nature. 
 
 Mr. Norquay had said that the Govern- 
 ment had 
 
 KICKBD OVER EVERY PRINCIPLE 
 
 they advocated when in opposition. He 
 proposed to see how far this statement 
 was true. When he entered upon oflBce 
 he issued an address to his electors in 
 which he laid down his policy. It opened 
 with ttiis general statement: "In accept- 
 ing oflSce my coUeafrues and myself thor- 
 oughly appreciate the magnitude of the 
 task which lies before us. The finances 
 of the Province are in a deplorable condi- 
 tion. The public moneys have been 
 squandered in a reckless and injurious 
 fashion." Does anyone doubt this state- 
 ment of the deplorable condition of the fi- 
 nances? Had not the public moneys been 
 squandered in a reckless fashion? 
 In the very department over which Mr. 
 Norquay presided, an official, Gideon 
 Bourdeau, had run away with 913,000. If 
 the honorable gentleman was not cogniz- 
 ant of what was going on he was not do- 
 ing his business properly, and was not 
 discharging the duties of his position. 
 Bourdeau embezzled that amount because 
 he was not properly looked after. Then 
 he said in his address: "The estimates 
 for nearly all purposes have been extrava- 
 gantly exceeded. Not only has the Treas- 
 ury been practically emptied but large 
 floating liabilities have been incuited 
 which must be provided against. It de- 
 volves upon us to rescue the Province 
 
 FROM THi:" FINANCIAL QUAGMIRE 
 
 into which i' m beenplunged. As a first 
 step towards chis end, a thorough investi- 
 gation of the Treasunr Department will 
 promptly be proceeded with by competent 
 men and the electors will have the satis- 
 faction of knowing at an early date what 
 disposition has been made of the public 
 monies for a number of years past, 
 and how the present condition of 
 the Treasury has oeen brought about." 
 Mr. Norquay had found fault Mcause they 
 had placed auditors in the departme:it to 
 find out the exact position of the finances. 
 The Government felt it to be a duty to 
 themselves upon taking office, to know 
 the exact state of affairs. And the result 
 had justified their action. Serious as had 
 been the developments the half has not 
 yet been told. It will take them many 
 months yet, before they get at the bottom 
 of things. Only that day he had learned 
 of 
 
 ANOTHER STEAL OF 926,000 
 wi^i^^^i «^,« ... — ... t-nc j.Ti.iiii3i.:;i- ur. xruDlIC 
 
 Works, would speak about that evening. 
 They were daily making discoveries. The 
 late Government presumed the 98,000 
 matter would never get to the light, and 
 it probably never would have, had 
 they not neglected to pay a 
 little balance of 9400 to John 
 Lovell & Sons, of Montreal. They were 
 
 too greedy, and therefore that firm pre- 
 sented a bill for 9400 to the present Gov- 
 ernment and this revealed the transac- 
 tion. He had long desired to know the 
 inside history of the printing of the crop 
 reports; and now it was laid bare. The 
 late Provincial Treasurer had the best 
 possible assistant in this nefarious trans- 
 action in Acton Burrows, than whom 
 there has not been a greater disgrace 
 among those who fed at the public crib. 
 These two men associated themselves to- 
 gether for the purpose of 
 
 DEFRAUDING THE PROVINCE 
 
 of that amount of money. When 
 they placed auditors there, the 
 gentlemen appointed received the 
 commendation of the Call. He 
 did not know whether its approval was 
 worth much, but it left those on the oppo- 
 site side without an excuse for complain- 
 ing about the appointments. 
 
 Then the address said: "Measures will 
 betaken to provide for the 9256.000 of 
 Provincial bonds which were illegally and 
 wrongfully handed over by the Tate Gov- 
 ernment to the contractors of the Hud- 
 son's Bay Railway will not be lost to the 
 Province. It is desirable that everything 
 necessary should be done in order that 
 the consideration which the Province 
 should' have received, maybe obtained." 
 Mr. Norquay would call his action in 
 handing over to the Winnipeg & Hud- 
 son's Bay Railway 9256,000 of the people's 
 money without gettlM a dollar's wortb of 
 security another "little Grit discrepancy." 
 Mr. Norquay had undertaken to mislead 
 the House on this question; and he could 
 tell him that he had stated that which 
 was not true. Mr. Norquay had said that 
 he had been misrepresented upon this 
 question, but he would try him by him- 
 self. He had gone into a little arrange- 
 ment in thi& matter about which the less 
 said the better. Mr. Norquay had said 
 that the Winnipeg and Hudson's Bay 
 Railway Company had asked for aid and 
 it had oeen granted. It was usual for a 
 railway company wanting aid to apply to 
 the Government for aid. In this case 
 there was this slight difference: That the 
 honorable gentleman had opened the 
 negotiations himself and had asked Presi- 
 dent Sutherland to ask foi the aid. That 
 was done through telegrams and cable- 
 grams to Mr. Sutherland in England sent 
 through a third party. Mr. Norquay was 
 represented in this matter by that diplo- 
 matic diplomat, that great financial 
 agent, H. H. Rennie. He corresponded 
 with Sutherland through a third party, 
 and asked the Hudson Bay Railway com- 
 pany to ask for aid for the line. The re- 
 sult of these negotiations was that this 
 great financial agent was despatched to 
 London to see Mr. Sutherland. He came 
 back, renorted progress ani asked leave 
 to manipulate further. After the aid was 
 granted a contract w as entered into by 
 the president of the road, and Mr. Nor- 
 quay was to have 
 
'*"••*••"*'— —-fl 
 
 26 
 
 AN INTKREST IN THIS CONTBAOT. 
 
 He knew What he was talking about, and 
 when in the early part of theseaaion Mr. 
 JNorquay moved for a committee to exam- 
 ine into hia connection with this matter, 
 brav^ ^^ "*'"** e*J»ibition olf 
 
 Mr. Norquay rose and stated that there 
 waanottheslisthtest foundation for Mr. 
 irreenway a remarka. When he undertook 
 to speak of his private busint a he did not 
 know what he was talklnt? about. 
 
 Mr. Greenway— "I do know whereof I 
 ?J??*5* J ^V'^ certain little documents in 
 this desk that will preve that I know 
 whereof I speak, and I am not in the habit 
 " u,^?®?K*°* i" tJils House on matters 
 which I do not know. He said the Gov- 
 ernment was discussing whether it was 
 not a duty that they owed the people to 
 institute criminal proceedings againat 
 Hon. Mr. Norqvwy and hia coUeague,Hon. 
 Mr. LaRlviere, in this connection. (Sen- 
 sauon). It would be a travesty on public 
 mortality to let such deeds in high places 
 pass without condemnation or punish- 
 ment. Oa October 4th, 1886, the Norquay 
 Government passed their first Order- 
 in-U)uncil in accordance with 
 
 THE GENERAL RAILWAY ACT. 
 
 Matters went on; meanwhile the nolitlcal 
 contest was goingpn; the day of election 
 was coming on. The Government applied 
 to this quarter and to that quarter for 
 funds because they knew that they needed 
 to bolster up the weaknesses of their 
 cause with money. They failed; matters 
 went on, and finally on Nov. 11th they 
 passed another order-incouncil that the 
 agreement with the H. B. R. company be 
 approved and the commissioner instructed 
 to execute. 
 
 That order-in-council atated that work 
 on the road was "about completed;" and 
 the agreement which it sanctioned pro- 
 vided that the «256,000 should be handed 
 over forthwith to the Merchant's Bank. 
 
 He drew particular attention to the 
 words "about completed" because they 
 showed that the Government knew 
 that at that time the conditions 
 
 „ *°®.^ ,'*^ respecting aid to 
 railways had not been complied with by 
 the riiilway company. The passing of the 
 proper order-in-council on October 4th 
 showed that they knew what the law 
 was; and this second order was issued by 
 them in defiance of the law. 
 .Hon. C. P. Brown— What date was 
 
 Mr. Greenway— On November 9th. The 
 question of the member from Westboume 
 had just reminded him that on the even- 
 
 incr nf fhAf /la<r V..^ UmA ..,»«. uj ..i 
 
 — — ««._» ..-. .fcT*.? iii^L ititUf lixt;ix a 
 
 member of the Government, on the plat- 
 form in the county of Westbourne. Prior 
 to that date the members of the cabinet 
 had been very mysterious about 
 the date of the polling, but 
 upon this occasion Mr. Brown 
 was more communicative. Just about I 
 
 that time Mr. Brown saw a light ahead 
 and so he announced that the elections 
 would be held on December 9th, purauant 
 to the agreement with the Hudaon Bay 
 Company. Next day the Government's 
 organ made the aame announcement. The 
 Government had by that time provided 
 themaelves with an election fund which 
 they had lacked before, by a large propor- 
 tion of the aid given to the railway being 
 handed over to 
 
 A BOODLING PARTNERSHIP OF THREE 
 
 of which the Government of Manitoba 
 was a member. On December 24th half 
 of the bonds were handed over. The 
 honorable gentleman had tried by circum- 
 locution to mystify the House 
 respecting the handing over of 
 
 SS® mv**"*®*" *»*^' 0° February 
 ^. There was a council meeting held in 
 December at which it was discussef? 
 whether or not the bonds could be handed 
 over, though they knew that If they did 
 so it would be In doflanceof th«> Hw. 
 There wtm a belief of this kind in the 
 mind of the Premier himself and he 
 wired to the Minister of the Interior. 
 
 TT «,.. „ Winnipeg, December, 22, l&Jfi. 
 Hon. Thos. White, Minister of the InteriorT 
 Ottawa, 
 Winnipeg & Hudson Bay Railway will have 
 forty miles of track ironed by the end of the 
 month and have given Manitoba Government 
 an order for land grant covering 40 miles in 
 oonsideration of debentures of Province given 
 maid of the enterprise. Will your Govern- 
 ment accept order of the company and hold 
 land for us, as pontraotors anxious to got de- 
 bentures. ■ 
 
 John Norquay. 
 
 ^S '■*'^*^® following reply was received 
 on Dec 22nd: 
 
 Hon. John No«22?r°°' '^'" '^'- ""' '"^ 
 
 Upon certificate of chief engineer Govern- 
 ment railways that forty miles of W. & H. B 
 raUway is completed in accordance with the 
 requirements of the order in council and upon 
 S Y5ll..*^,'°P^"J'*..9'^er the department will 
 hold the lands subject to order of Manitoba 
 Government. 
 
 Thos. White. 
 Thbi telegram was clear, but they had 
 Already determined upon handing over 
 the bonds. Two days after they received 
 
 "^ ^^'S'iS^ JSl^y P^<* over bonda to the 
 value of $128,000 without getting a dollar 
 of security. He would Rke them to ex- 
 plain this If they could. In the address 
 ne bad promised that measures would be 
 taken 
 
 BY WHICH THE LAND GRANT 
 
 thus lost to the Province should be ob- 
 talned. To do this they had to take out of 
 the people s treasury f 35,000; that was the 
 csuinacc or ili. Uulliugwood ttchreiber 
 and the president of the road, of what 
 would be required to place the road in a 
 position to pass inspection. It was better 
 to lose this amount, which there would be 
 no necessity to spend if the late Govern- 
 ment had done their duty, than to lose the 
 land grant which was the security for the 
 
 'I 
 
 I 
 
27 
 
 . light ahead 
 the elections 
 9th, pursuant 
 Hudson Bay 
 jrovemment's 
 icement. The 
 ime provided 
 fund which 
 large propor- 
 ailway being 
 
 OF THREE 
 
 }f Manitoba 
 bar 24th half 
 
 over. The 
 d by circum- 
 bhe House 
 over of 
 February 
 ting held in 
 « discusser? 
 Id be handed 
 
 if they did 
 of thf* Hw. 
 kind in the 
 lelf and he 
 iterior. 
 
 ber, 22, 18^6. 
 e Interior. 
 
 my win have 
 lie end of the 
 Government 
 r 40 miles in 
 •ovince given 
 rour Oovem- 
 !iny and hold 
 as to got de- 
 
 r NORQUAY. 
 
 ras received 
 
 )ec. 22, 1886. 
 
 leer Govern- 
 W. & H. B. 
 ice with the 
 :11 and upon 
 irtnient will 
 of Manitoba 
 
 )s. White, 
 b they had 
 iding over 
 jy received 
 mds to the 
 ig a dollar 
 hem to ex- 
 ^e address 
 s woald be 
 
 ANT 
 
 luld be Ob- 
 take out of 
 lat was the 
 Schreiber 
 I, of what 
 e road in a 
 was better 
 e would be 
 te Govern- 
 to lose the 
 ity for the 
 
 
 bonds. This was the particular rock on 
 which the Norquay Government had split, 
 and it was only proper that such an un- 
 righteousness transaction should have 
 such a result. He had all the particular 
 details of this transaction, the telegrams 
 wd cablegrams; and if they prosecuted 
 the late premier and his colleague the 
 evidence would come out at the proper 
 time. 
 
 Then in his address he had promised 
 "to inaugurate the practice of the most 
 rigid economy. The late Government 
 gained unenviable distinction as the most 
 extravagant of all Provincial Administra- 
 tions in the Dominion- I have repeatedly 
 pointed out the possibility of decreasing 
 the annual expenditure most materially, 
 and in accordance with my pledges to the 
 electors, the services of every unnecessary 
 official will be promptly dispensed with, 
 and the cost of printing and other expen- 
 ses will be materially lessened." They 
 had been told years ago, by the then 
 Premier, when they said the expense of 
 the public service could be reduced, that 
 
 THIS WAS BLATANT NONSENSE. 
 
 In his own constituency some years ago 
 Mr. Norquay told his constituents thatif 
 they expected that he (Greenway) upon 
 acceding to power, would take off his coat 
 and go to work in his department with- 
 out a deputy head they were going to be 
 mistaken. Well he had not exactly tak- 
 en off his coat yet because the weather 
 was too cold but he had worked in his 
 office as assiduously and earnestly as he 
 ever had at anything in his life. Mr. 
 Norquay had insinuated that they had in- 
 troduced the principle that to 
 the victors belong the spoils but 
 no one had been dismissed without 
 cause. Everyone who had been dis- 
 charged had gone either because 
 they were not necessary or be- 
 cause they had been detected 
 
 EMULATING THE* DEEDS 
 
 of their former masters. And theh- places 
 had not been filled. They had claimed in 
 times past that 950,000 a yearcould be sav- 
 ed in the cost of the public service;thac they 
 could do without deputy heads; that 
 they could save $10,000 a year in print- 
 ing; and in this respect they had found 
 they could save *S»,000. They had done 
 better than they claimed they could; they 
 had saved altogether $90,000. They were 
 in the past laughed at and told that it was 
 impracticable to reduce the expenditure; 
 but they had shown that it was quite 
 practical)le. They intended to practice 
 the same economy in the future; and to 
 carefully husband the resources of the 
 Province. 
 
 that "the fiscal year will be changed to 
 correspond with the calendar year, so that 
 in future, upon the meeting of the Legis- 
 ture, the people's representatives will 
 ha<re laid before them a perfect balance 
 sheet extending to the close of the year 
 
 1°^?®^,^ ?' •* before, to midsummer mere- 
 ly. This reform they intended carrying 
 out, for, although they asked estimates 
 for an entire fiscal year dating from June 
 30 next, they did it for 
 
 THE PURPOSE or COMPARISON 
 
 With the figures In past years ; and the 
 public accounts would be brought down to 
 December 31 and a new fiscal year would 
 then be <mtered upon. They intended that 
 the buslhess of the departments should 
 be canied on in a business-like wav, not 
 as in the past. Upon taking office, he took 
 temporary charge of the treasury depart- 
 ment, and naturally one of the first ques- 
 tions he asked was what money 
 was on hand, and the answer 
 he got was that they did not 
 ™°?^i ^ •*?* *' **« went to the bank he 
 would find out. He went to the bank and 
 found a balance of $16,000. That was suf- 
 ncient to show how the departments had 
 been run. 
 
 His address said:" Our efforts to remedy 
 the monetary difficulties of the Province 
 will, I trust, result in placing it upon a 
 sound and unexceptionable financial basis 
 of which we may, one and all, speak with 
 feelings of just pride." This they did. Mr. 
 Torquay had read letters from people in 
 New York who did not want to negotiate 
 a loan, but he did not explain that when 
 ?e P«8«d through Chicago, the money at 
 102-30 was lying for him in the American 
 Exchange Bank. These letters which 
 Mr. Norquay had produced from his pri- 
 vate vault in his vest book, should be on 
 record In the department where they be- 
 longed. M& Norquay had no right 
 
 TO TAKE THEM AWAY 
 
 with him. There were some missing pap- 
 ers in his own department that 
 he would like very much 
 to find; he wondered whether 
 they were In the private wallet of some 
 gentleman. In this connection Mr. Nor- 
 quay had made a little exhibition of his 
 consistency. At one portion of his speech 
 ne wad Sir John's letter to the delegates, 
 and It did not seem to be definite enough 
 to suit him. In it he could find no prom- 
 ise that diallowance would be done away 
 with. A little later he said that because 
 disallowance had been done away with, 
 the Provincial Government should have 
 got 
 
 A MORE PAVOHABLB RATE 
 
 for their loan. This was the consistency 
 of the honorable gentleman. Before the 
 disallowance policy was done away with 
 in February they negotiated a loan that 
 would net the Province 103. This was a 
 greajb change in the financial position of 
 tne I'FOvince compared with a few months 
 prior when Mr. Norquay could raise no 
 naoney because their nefarious transac- 
 tions had destroyed all confidence in the 
 Government. The city of Winnipeg would 
 have given him the money if they had 
 had any faith in him. WhUe at Ottawa 
 
^8 
 
 the speaker came to the conclusion that as 
 dlsallpwjuice was done away with, and 
 Mr. Gkwchen's bill in the Imperial Pirlla- 
 ment had appreciated Colonial securities, 
 it was probable that better terms could be 
 made for the loan, and he telegraphed Mr. 
 Jones that if they could in lonor with' 
 draw from the arrangement to do so, but 
 nothing must be done to discredit the Pro- 
 vince. Thoy would not break an arange- 
 ment to secure 1 per cent, additional which 
 was about all that could have been gained 
 had new n^tlations been opened. 
 They felt that they had on February 
 29th made a good arrangement with a 
 strong financial firm which would net the 
 Province 103; and under the circumstances 
 they did not feel they would be justified 
 in breaking it. Mr. Norquay had charged 
 them with inconsistency because mis 
 year they borrowed $1,500,000 when only a 
 year ago they contended $750,000 was a 
 large enough loan for the Government to 
 float. Had the Province then been in the 
 position that it was said at the time to be 
 m, 8750,000 was quite as sufficient for its 
 needs then as $1,500,000 was to-day. They 
 did not know the condition of the country 
 last year; the Provincial treasurer had 
 made a statement which 
 
 HAD DBCEiVED THE HOUSE. 
 
 They did not know then that there was a 
 three hundred thousand dollar deficit. 
 
 Quoting another clause from his address 
 which read: "It is the intention of the 
 present Grovemment to make use of every 
 proper and constitutional means to secure 
 the completion of the Red River Valley 
 Hallway. In order that the line may be 
 one of real importance, and that the bene- 
 fits of competion in freight rates may be 
 extended to all portions of the Province,it 
 is our intention to secure also railway con- 
 nection with the west of the Province by 
 a route south of the Assiniboine River.''' 
 In that he had made certain pledges 
 which the people had unmistakably shown 
 they approved of; but now he was asked 
 to abandon his promises. Why did ttiey 
 want the R.R.V.R. ? For the purpose of 
 competition? The abolition ofmonopoly 
 would not in itself supply competition; a 
 competing line had to be built. 
 The tact that while on LLe previous 
 evening Mr. Norquay had been opposing 
 the construction of the Red River Valley 
 Railway on the floor of the Legislature, 
 Mr. Daly was 
 
 TALKINO IN THE SAME STRAIN 
 
 at Ottawa, made him think there was 
 something in the theory of kindred spirits 
 Influencing one another although far 
 apart. He was urged by Mr. Norquay 
 
 not to carry out hie "pledee; 
 
 that Canadian Pacific railway had made 
 
 he had saio 
 
 certain overtures to the Government. He 
 was sorry that he had to refer to this mat" 
 ter but the honorable gentleman was try- 
 ing to place them in a false position. He 
 had stated that the C. P. R. had offered to 
 ease to the Govenuu^nt on their own I 
 
 terns the Emerson branch and the two 
 southwestom branches, but no such offer 
 !l.*°^7*®'' '*®®H ™*<le ^y the C.P. R. When 
 ^Sivi'^*.'^® C.P.R. authorities had 
 urged him to lease or buy the Emerjon 
 oranch. He said it would be purely a 
 «R*«SS'n2?I""l?®*'''^"*^ when they asked 
 fhiV?'*'^ ''"^ ^K?"" ^'^ a y«". '« said 
 f« « u Ii®^.°' *^® expense they had gone 
 w«"«^'S£'^°^ %® «• R- V. R.; and as it 
 was on the east side of the river, the line 
 was not worth more than 
 
 HALF A MILLION DOLLARS 
 
 f?««?.?f. He heard nothing more about 
 it until he returned to Winnipeg, when he 
 received through Mr. Whyte several com- 
 munications. In one of these it seemed 
 to be intimated that unless the Provincial 
 oovemment would abandon the R,R,V.R. 
 tftere was no use discussing the taking 
 over of tne Emerson branch. In reply he 
 
 fJI?T*S**n"P *,^*' ?<'»*tlo» o* the Pr6vlnce 
 ^^^etoUowing letter to General Superin- 
 
 Mv DEAR Mb. Whv'^^^''^*^' ^^^ 8th. 1888. 
 
 Referring to our conversation and Mr. Van 
 w2?Zi2* communications re the lease of the 
 H^t'S?^*"?"??' FS?« to say.that if the sugges- 
 tionB made in that direction imply the aJ^d- 
 ?^f2?„?? <*0J?artS' ?J: Government of the 
 S?i^''**9^*'r*^ ^^^ "*ver Valley RaUway 
 A?H^l°°t ¥. ^ a position to entertain them. 
 
 iiome that it is not the intention of the Gov- 
 S?iS^K^«M?'^®'^l®i*"y general system of 
 SS^?.^il?"*^*-,^^*°K.^«'"7 anxious that the 
 branch lines should be extended this year we 
 are perfectly willing te render ySS cSSipany 
 
 S?J*t?S^**'"'***PRrP°^«'*- I a™ sure you 
 ?i ti,PSi«r"%'it*h® ^^'■y, «ff«at import^ce 
 to the settters of the respective localitira of the 
 «^«Sf i°K' ** '^S® earliest possible moment of the 
 several branches, and there can be no doubt 
 of the very great advantage that would accrue 
 wJS."*ir?"'i,S°"il?*"y.**"fO"8h such extension. 
 With this object in view we shall be glad to 
 meetrepsesentativesof the Canadian Pacific 
 RaUway at any time that we can be of anv 
 service in this connection. ' 
 
 Yours very truly, 
 
 THOB, GREBNWAY. 
 
 The Government had considered this 
 matter fully, and they would not abandon 
 theR.R. V. R. They had the money to 
 construct it; the rails were on the way 
 from Montreal; tenders had been called 
 for, and the road will be completed by the 
 the first of next July. The Government 
 had also considered the interests of other 
 parte of the Province and they would this ' 
 
 iT the ''"^i?' ^' *^® ^" ^' ■"• *° °^^' ^*t 
 
 EXTEND THEIR BRANCH LINES 
 
 as are desired, the Government will irive 
 them aid under the railway aid act to the 
 extent of 86,400 a mUe. "^-f w cne 
 
 In his address he had promised to in- 
 s,«ff?i?t^t« £ rif^oruus immigration policy 
 and this they pioposed doing. They were 
 now preparing Uterature and were in 
 59*?!?^*°"^**°" ^^tJ^ gentlemen who will 
 distribute it. He had also promised a 
 simpler municipal system. This was 
 
fay 8tb, 1888. 
 
 act to the 
 
 about the only pledge he had not been 
 able to carry out this session, owinK to 
 the press of other work and the carefnl 
 consideration which it required. But at 
 the next session one of the first matters 
 toau would receive their attention would 
 oe the reorKinization of the municipali- 
 
 In his address he also said: "The pro- 
 per development of our educational sys- 
 tem, and the need of affording ample fac- 
 ilities for education in the Province will 
 receive the careful attention of the Gov- 
 eminent/ Gwing to peculiar circumstan- 
 ces the chaige upon the taxpayers for edu- 
 cational purposes is abominably heavy. 
 The Government will devise means where- 
 oy the schools will receive a much larger 
 monesr grant than has hitherto been 
 given. He had met this promise by jriv- 
 ing to the public schools of this Province 
 
 A GRANT OF ?120,000 
 
 Waa this pledge violated? Was this one 
 of the principles they had advocated in 
 opposition to kick over when they became 
 * 15°!®,^™*^*' They had promised a fair 
 redistribution measure and thev had 
 brought down one, that had beenaU but 
 univerwilly accepted as equitable and 
 just. They had broadened the franchise 
 to the basts of manhood suffrage in re- 
 sponse to their pledge; he had tSready ex- 
 plained why the govemmenc had been 
 unable to prepare the voters' Ust for this 
 election through the municipal clerks; but 
 ne promised the expense would not be 
 more than half what it had b&en in the 
 past. He had advocated when in opposi- 
 tion a secret ballot, not a ballot wlWch 
 would allow a government to intimidate 
 a voter by threateninar to ascertain after- 
 wards how he voted: they had introduced 
 a system by which a fair expression of the 
 public mind could be obtained. These 
 were some of the pledges they had re- 
 deemed: and the record showed that in 
 pl«5e of kicking ever evary principle they 
 had advocated Tn opposition they had pro- 
 ceeded to put them in legislation. 
 *u 1 i.*®'^P"f .chaiT^es preferred against 
 the late administration had not been an- 
 ■wered; they were unansweraple. Mr. 
 Norquay had caUed them little discrep- 
 ancies; and m place of explaining the past 
 intimated that the present gc /emment 
 would be 
 
 est OH Provincial funds entrusted to their 
 keeping, by permission, so they said, of 
 thefr ministers. In 1886 he had said that 
 if these gentlemen acted in private life as 
 they had in public office they would soon 
 nnd themselves behind the bars. He had 
 been told that he should not make that 
 statement, but he wished to repeat that 
 utterance on the floor of the House. If 
 these men carried into private life the 
 methods by which they transacted public 
 business they would take the way that 
 leads to Stony Mountain peniten- 
 tiary. Mr. Norauay had said that they 
 had related these scandals with unctuous 
 satisfaction. It was not true. Theygriev- 
 ed sincerely over these revelations. 
 
 In his remarks Mr. Norquay had reite- 
 rated a statement which he had frequent- ' 
 ly made before that the delegates had been 
 summoned to Ottawa to merely 
 
 WITNESS THK CONFIRMATION 
 
 Of a TOttlement of the diiHculty which had 
 already been arrived at. Let them ex- 
 amine whether this statement was true. 
 The delegates arrived in Ottawa on March 
 6th and tW left on the 19th without hav- 
 ing settled anything. Next day he re- 
 ceived the following telegram:— 
 T« v^„ fTK Ottawa, Ont., March 20th, 1888. 
 Toronto ** Greenway, Queen's ikotel. 
 I regret your hasty departure. Matters mak- 
 ing as rapid proOTesa aa possible. I hope you 
 ifS*"*™ '^^ «**y fork few days. "Ple^^ 
 
 John A. Macdonald, 
 Does the wording of that telegram look 
 as though the matter had all been arrana- 
 
 ffil .?*l*^*n®£S'* ^'^\ telegram and re- 
 ceived the following reply;— 
 
 is^ mu r, Ottawa, March 21»t, 1888. 
 
 Hon. Thomas Greenway, Exeter. 
 Your message arrived too late to answer last 
 
 BQTrALLY AS GUILTY 
 
 in the fiiture. He could tell him he 
 woviid be disappointed in this respect. 
 As an instance of the carelessness of the 
 late Government, he could point out that 
 ucenseuhad been given throughout the 
 Frovince, and they had been given on 
 credit. This was carrying the credit sys- 
 tem too far: proper recordf. of the rr^~ 
 eys received had noroean kept, and it 
 was simply impossible to tind out how 
 much the Province had lost in this con- 
 nection. They would remedy this little 
 discrepancy. They had found civil ser- 
 vants applying to thehr own use the inter- 
 
 ,-- — — -www«jj^ uai,x« w* i/uu xaw bu answer las 
 night. Comprete settlement of the great ques- 
 
 n*'«7"^.**''^H"«'^"* I beUeve thi principle 
 of adjustment can be agreed on in a few days! 
 
 John A. Macdonald. 
 That telegram appeared to him to indicate 
 that there was something pending that 
 had not been decided. Norquay safd that 
 it had been decided long before to abol- 
 ish monopoly, but on January 4th, about 
 two wMks before the present Government 
 took office, a sub-committee of the Ottawa 
 Government consisting of Hon. Messrs. 
 White and Thompson, drew up a report 
 givingrea«)ns why the policv of disallow- 
 ^ce should not be done away with. In 
 that report they said : 
 
 "To say that a Provincial Legislature shall 
 nothave power to legislate inject to ral? 
 ways would be mere surplusage for the reason 
 that no powers can be confel^ by any iS 
 ^^ ^^Z*"*' ^a construction or' working of 
 raUways beyond its own boundaries It u 
 ^S^ incrcrore tiittl the excoptiona in clause 10 
 were designed to reatrict the powers of the 
 Wn^'li??.,**' ^°f»« o' Purely*local coAcem 
 IS2^»'Sr?*'^''.,®'^°lH«*^*' control of the Parlla- 
 Sl*£^*? ^^"4*^?/**L^'*7"' which, although sit- 
 uated technically within the boundaries of a 
 
 ?i2r/f?®-5rSll^'«*«<*^'" become, and being 
 created with the express object of connecting 
 
dO 
 
 with other railways beyond its limits, would 
 thus beoome great arteries o( inteprovincial or 
 international commerce." 
 
 In support of the contention they quoted 
 the opinions of the very men who were 
 now claiming credit for naving 
 
 BBBN MAINLY INSTBUMENTAli 
 
 in securing the abrogation of monopoly. 
 
 Mr. Norquay's utterances in the House in 
 
 1883 were quoted as follows :— 
 
 , My friend contends that we can pass legisla. 
 ^'on tibartering railways to the bounday. In 
 the B. N. A. Act, under the head of "exclusive 
 powers of local leKlslature8,"'we find telegraph, 
 steamboat and railway lines, other than those 
 connecting one province with another, or ex- 
 tending beyond the boundary of the province. 
 But my honorable friend says I promised to re- 
 Vnact the charter of the Emerson & North- 
 western. Now the avowed oMect of the par- 
 ties seeking the incorporation of that company 
 was to build the line between the town of Km- 
 eraon and several other towns In the Province 
 of Manitoba. The incorporators never showed 
 any intention of making a connection south of 
 the boundary. He had sympathized with the 
 people of Emersnn— he believed they ought to 
 get that charter— would assist them to get that 
 charter— and would not go back on bis word. 
 But Emerson should get its charters 
 for the avowed obiect for which in- 
 corporation was sought. When interested 
 parties say that they intend using that bill in a 
 manner to exceed the power which the Local 
 Leglalature could confer upon them— when 
 this was said, those making the statements 
 were responsible for the disallowance of that 
 measure. The hon. member In alluding again 
 to the Provincial Rights cry explained that he 
 would be the last one to curtail any powers 
 that belonged to us as a Province; but he would 
 also refuse to delude the people of Manitoba 
 by clap-trap railway l^islation such as clearly 
 exceeded our powers as a Province." 
 
 Hon. Dr. Wilson, a member of the Gov- 
 ernment, was also quoted as saying he 
 believed it was against the spirit of the 
 British North America Act for the legisla- 
 ture to start a railway to connect with 
 foreign lines; and Mr. Leacock, who was 
 not always 
 
 AS FIRM A FBIBND 
 
 of the Province as he now claims to be, is 
 quoted as saying it was the plain meaning 
 of the Act that the Province should not 
 have power to charter lines to connect 
 with foreion countries. Attomey-Greneral 
 Sutherland took still stronger ground, 
 saying that it was absurd that the prov- 
 inces were not to be allowed to charter 
 railways connecting our Province with an- 
 other, while at the same time they might 
 charter railways to connect a Province 
 with a foreign country. Dr. Harrison is 
 also quoted as thus e}q;>ressing himself:— 
 "To charter railways to run from any one 
 point to any other point in the Province was a 
 special power of the legislature, but It was 
 distinctly prohibited that line"- could be char- 
 tered to join roads In other provinces, or lines 
 beyond the confines of the Provinnn- K« wQu'd 
 ask if it was of such immense necessity to the 
 traffic of the Province to build a line from Em- 
 erson to Portage la Prairie » He did not thhik 
 sip. Jt was in conienip ation to connect the 
 Emerson & Northwestern with roads outside i 
 the Province. In doing that they were doing 
 
 what was strictly prohibited by theB. N. A. 
 
 .Acta 
 
 And these gentlemen whose own utter- 
 ances were used to make out a case 
 against their own petition were now claim- 
 ing tliat they had stood up for the 
 
 RIOH'iS OP THB PROVINCE. 
 
 This report of the sub-committee noted 
 the resolution moved in the Legislature 
 bv Mr. Greenway in 1886, "That an hum- 
 ble address be forwarded to His Excellency 
 the Governor-General in Ck>uncil praying 
 that there be no interference with our 
 righto as a Legislature in respect to rail- 
 way legislation." It gave the utterances 
 of Norquay and LaRiviere on this motion 
 and announced that it had been defeated 
 by 19 to 8. And now men who helped to 
 make up that majority had the audacity 
 to stand up and claim credit in this mat- 
 ter. 
 
 When the better terms resolutions were 
 up for confirmation in the House he oppos- 
 ed them because he said they fastened 
 tiore firmly than ever the bonds of mono- 
 poly on the Province. On this point the 
 report said:— 
 
 The Loglsleture of Manitoba bad (in 1881) 
 sent three of Its members, Messrs. Norquay, 
 MUler and Murray, to confer with the Govern- 
 ment of Can^a on certain subjects, which 
 were embraced in a memorandum submitted 
 by them. Among the subjects included in 
 this memorandum was the following:— 
 
 4. The rights of the Provhioe to charter lines 
 of railway from any one point to another with- 
 in the Province, except so far as the same has 
 been limited by Its Legislature in the Exten- 
 sion Act of 1881. 
 
 Theconimittee of council to whom this 
 ™?^???J?'°i'H™ '^^ referred, after conference 
 with the delegates, reported as follows:— 
 
 * • • * Knowing the long-avowed policy 
 of parliament to prevent the leglthnate trade 
 of the country, and the Canadian Pacific Rail- 
 way being diverted to the United States, your 
 sul^commlttee consider that no injustice will 
 be done to the people of Manitoba by the exer- 
 
 cise of such supervision by the Dominion Gov- 
 ernment over (be raUway charters sought from 
 the pomlnion Parliament or passed by the Leg- 
 islature of Manitoba, as wlirmaintain this pol- 
 icy, and the conditions of the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway Act, until the exphTr of the time nam- 
 ed therein, or unUl the road is opened and 
 trade estabUshed. when it is believed it may be 
 repealed or modified without Injustice and 
 wlUa the consent of the contracting parties 
 
 The minute-in-council embodjring this 
 suggestion was, it was pointed out in the 
 despatch, 
 
 so FAVORABLY ENTBRTAINBD 
 
 that they were accepted by the Legisla- 
 ture. And this was quoted as a reason 
 why monopoly should not be done away 
 with; yet these gentlemen who were re- 
 sponsible for it, now posed as the saviors 
 of the country. 
 
 Inhi=spee--h Mr. Norquay had shown 
 his generosity and liberality of mind by 
 accusing the member for South Winnipeg 
 ofnotobservingtheindependenceofParlla- 
 naentbacausehewas a shareholder in a 
 printing institntion that was doing 80019 
 
 i 
 
the B. N. A. 
 
 own atter- 
 lut a cam 
 
 nowolaim- 
 the 
 
 rcE. 
 
 ilttee noted 
 Leglnlature 
 at an hum- 
 Bxcellency 
 ;il praying 
 e with our 
 [>ect to rail- 
 utterances 
 tiia motion 
 Q defeated 
 helpcNl to 
 le audacity 
 a this mat- 
 
 itions were 
 e he oppos- 
 y fastened 
 Is of mono- 
 B point the 
 
 Id (in 1884) 
 B. Norquay, 
 he Qovem- 
 ects, which 
 
 submitted 
 Qoluded in 
 S:- 
 
 harter lines 
 lother with- 
 esame has 
 
 the Bxten- 
 
 irhom this 
 conference 
 ws:— 
 
 wed policy 
 Imate trade 
 'aoiflc Rail- 
 bates, your 
 justice will 
 )y the exer- 
 union Gov- 
 ought fot>m 
 by the Leg- 
 ^ thispol- 
 lian Pacific 
 time nam- 
 
 rmed and 
 it may be 
 ustice and 
 larties. 
 ying this 
 out in the 
 
 ricD 
 
 Legisla- 
 I a reason 
 ne away 
 
 werere- 
 le saviors 
 
 d shown 
 mind by 
 ^innipe^ 
 ofParUa- 
 ilder in a 
 Ing Boin9 
 
 31 
 
 Jh^^-?''*'*P~^^**- Did he Kmember 
 cnMafewye^ ago he,nota8a shareholder 
 
 cSil'?om?SS?l'**°i' °' **»• SaskStehewan 
 l^ conapany-there wasa steal In thatltoo 
 
 ;;;SSJ*TO°^.*u«°°'™<'t ^t*» the goverS^ 
 S^S V^^*****?. *° ."""P'? them with 
 &*K"'i" .'P't® °' such a record he 
 g»« tjieftideclty to assail the member for 
 
 ^«w F°i°*P!8- ^o »l>°^ed how he 
 ^™fi "'^"t »,Knat and swallow a 
 camel. They had entered temporarily 
 J^^fti.'^'iJ'^* T"** the FreTpress 
 ^i£*i?®f ''"""S 'o' the session done 
 hS!J^5%5'?**fJ*'T' "^^^^ ^^^f>r what had 
 been paid in the past ; and after the ses- 
 
 ?hL°i„^'".**y*'ih®y ^o"'d advertise and 
 the lowest tender would get the contract. 
 
 . '^^^^® ^^ **• ""^^ these charges was 
 ?h«7i*'i®f of regret to him. But it was 
 their duty so to.So that the people mlaht 
 visit upon these men and thiose whoffad 
 
 supported them In their course a punish- 
 ment for 
 
 THB8K NEFARIOTTS TBAN8ACTION8. 
 
 These and other things will be laid before 
 the electors, so that they could judge and 
 consign the guilty to the obscurity which 
 their crimes deserve. They would 
 ask the people for a rigid in- 
 vestlgatlon of their conduct to decide 
 whether or not they had redeem- 
 ed their pledges. They would point out 
 that they had Incrwwed the educational 
 grant, that they had saved large sums of 
 money from the expenditure on civil gov- 
 ernment and had expended it on the peo- 
 ple; and they would ask them to compare 
 their record with their predecessors >md 
 to decide which was worthy of their con- 
 ddence and support. Mr. Green way con- 
 cluded amid loud cheers, and it being six 
 o clock the House rose. 
 
 Mr. LaRIvIere said: Mr. Speaker, it is 
 not my intention to keep the^Houae very 
 
 marks to a few of the facts which have 
 
 been referred to by the Hon. the ProvlL! 
 
 cial Treasurer in his long speech. I regret 
 
 exceedingly-not from "the fact mlf^y 
 
 m,nt„?°'i*°*'^-i*'*t a certain am- 
 
 fu^A?^ acrimony has been introduced Into 
 
 the discussion of the aflfairs of the Pro- 
 
 u^?^'v^^^ making the charges they have 
 
 thfnt^* "?5l^ ^'of® the pu>)lic I 
 think it would have been more proper if 
 
 wuL^!^ ^''«<* themselves to thnaet 
 without trying or attempting to show 
 w-f' J® ^^"^ personaUy criminals, that 
 wM^h h!^ *'***^^*°S *>' ««taln things 
 which had so unfortunately happened 
 during our passage through offlw as 
 members of the past Government. Now 
 It has been stated that when these gentle- 
 men took office they found evemhlng 
 in s|ich a state of chaos that ft wm 
 practically Impossible to arrive at a 
 ^e statement of the affairs of the 
 ^kV"^' \f^'^i^ that some of the books 
 n»*«ht have been better kept and were a 
 lltSe behind, but it should^have bernTta * 
 ed that the dupUcates of the accounts 
 
 kA^l^S"^'"" l°*° these books were 
 kept in the same department only in an- 
 other room perhaps-I refer to this cash 
 book matter that we have heard So m^h 
 about. Before an entry is made in the 
 i^f***j X Department the accounts are 
 PMsed trough the audit office and there 
 
 MR. LaRIVIERE'8 DEFENCE. 
 
 As Rkj'ortkd by the "CxtL." 
 
 not merely for that reason, but lack 
 of the necessary staff to do the work. 
 Durinar last session even during the pre- 
 J2l^ f^f^°^..^^ have been told that 
 ^^fn.Kl^i'* '^^"h a similar staff. That 
 might have been the case in some of the 
 m«^'^1?^»'J'"* ''I *he treasury depart- 
 mffJ'rT'"]' *?,? system of book keeping 
 ma^talned-there was not the necessary 
 !i^^illr?i,*h« '^o'k. Mv intention was to 
 ?W"^,*he system, to appoint clerks for 
 
 Sd Wh?h"?''.!^°'K*" "* two branches, 
 and with that object I requested the for- 
 m&e accountant, who was afterwards de- 
 Piil^fK*^***'!' *°J*«*t Ontario and ascer- 
 tain there as to the way they kept their 
 P«hHc accounts, and to report as leariy as 
 
 RSf-i'''*,7^f' ™e"^o* he would suggest 
 ^f^lmpWfyjngthe system. The system 
 we have had untU now was, I may say^ 
 merely experimental, the viirious account^ 
 ^^.?!i!*S7 succeeded one another man- 
 arfng the books according to their own 
 vlew8. None of them had experience in 
 
 S^S^«?.K**°*'^v.".'?' » GoverS^ent? and 
 none orthem had been through a depart- 
 ment In any of the othe? provinces; 
 therefore each came with an idea 
 
 S.d «Jh hl^*i:?*'^ <^han governmental 
 and each had his own system. The first 
 !?^^^™.'^**uhy,5^' Bomaine, who was 
 succeeded by Mr. Alex. Bear, later by 
 
 my, so that In a shor*. tfme'we had four 
 hite^S^ *". <^hat department each 
 having a different way of keeninir bonba 
 
 themrsot-^nwTS^ton'^dupK^^ltL'S*^^ 1^°".^'*'. ^« shouirind out 
 the Govemm«nt i^t Tii°?U°tP'i<^"°K I '^Wch was the best system, and nn takina 
 •c,*.^^^^ .;;xrri.---rr ~V>"'5 "»= "««n i possession of the depiwtmeht it wiTa^ 
 
 tLtK"®\**,'^°*» possible to reorgan- 
 tee the whole matter. The session bSore 
 S^^Vfl"^"'^*^.* hill for the reorgani" 
 
 iulmir h.^^P*'^'?®?^*' »°d <J"'i«8 last 
 «?f?„«f had] not been caUed away so 
 often it would have been reorganized on a 
 proper footing. Unfortunately during 
 the time when the system was perhaps 
 
 agitated and it was thought at one time 
 cnat instead of keeping two sets of hooka 
 one set would be quItTsufficlent forthi 
 requirements of the public service and 
 therefore the cMh book in the Treasury 
 Departttient, being a duplicate almost of 
 asTrailarbookkeptln the auditor^ de- 
 partment was aUowed to run behind; and 
 
 M 
 
'^™^-' -f-^— .■—■ 1 — ^ 
 
 ss 
 
 \ 
 
 not 80 complete as it should have been 
 there was a lack of proper assistance to 
 do the work. The audit was not as care- 
 ruUy done as it should have been, 
 and perhaps too much confidence 
 was put on the proper discharge of the 
 duties of certain officials. Therefore It has 
 turned out since, Mr. Speaker, and I 
 am very sorry to say so, that some of the 
 omciais have proven themselves not to be 
 worthy of the confidence that was reposed 
 in them. But this is one of those things 
 that will happen in the best regulated 
 famihes, if I may so say. We have seen 
 'ately oneofthe banking institutions in 
 this city having to suffer for over confid- 
 ence in one of tJieir officials. Not long ago 
 in one of the departments in Toronto one 
 of the officials proved unfaithful to the 
 duties of his office, and similarly not long 
 ago in Quebec one of the oflfclals who 
 died was found to be in default to the ex- 
 tent of ?55,0(X); so that in regard to this 
 unfortunate occurrence in Manitoba we 
 can find something, not to justify us, but 
 something very similar in other places 
 which are supposed to have the experience 
 and proper organization to prevent such 
 occurrences as we have had in this Prov- 
 ince. Reference has been made to our 
 bank account. I must state, Mr. Speaker, 
 and I am very sorry to say so, that dur- 
 ing last summer, when we were 
 making every exertion to build 
 the Red River Valley railway In 
 spite of the assertions of our friends oppo- 
 site to the contrary— we were boycotted,! 
 may say, by the banking institutions that 
 we were dealing with on that very account. 
 We were threatened by the Institution we 
 were doing business with that if a single 
 dollar of the public money of the Province 
 was paid on account of the Red River Val- 
 ley railway, our banking account would 
 be stopped. If the correspondence had 
 been gone into thoroughly by the Provin- 
 cial Treasurer he must have found letters 
 referring to these matters. I must state 
 also there seemed to be a similar feeling in 
 all the institutions at that time dealing in 
 this Province, and even outside, because 
 I interviewed managers and presidents of 
 several of the banking Institutions with a 
 view of getting assistance, even if only 
 temporarily. In order to help the Govern- 
 ment out of their difficulty; there seems to 
 have been a general feeling all round that 
 should they help us out of these diffi- 
 culties they would be exposed to the 
 wrath and ire of the Federal Government 
 or of the C. P. R,— which they considered 
 as strong a company as the Federal Gov- 
 ernment might be should they assist us In 
 the construction of the R. R. V. R. either 
 directly or Indirectly. And on every oc- 
 
 OJUlinn I uraa i-n\A nopo r>1a4nW t^-'*- *-Un^ 
 
 could not under any circumstances— 
 though in some cases very anxious to do 
 something to help us out of this difficulty 
 —on account of their relations with either 
 the Federal Government or the C.P.R. be 
 a party to assist us in the unfortunate po- 
 
 sltion we held at the time. That is to say 
 in opposition to the wish of the Federal 
 Government and the desire of the C. P. R. 
 Reference was made to a loan which was 
 negotiated with the Merchants' Bank 
 whereby I had, under pressure, agreed to 
 give a commission of one per cent., not to 
 the extent made out in the statement of 
 the Provincial Treasurer, but whereby l 
 had to give a commission of one per cent, 
 in order to secure the necessary money to 
 carry out the affairs of the Province, and 
 there was a tacit understanding that none 
 of this money should be spent towards pay- 
 ing any of the accounts in connection with 
 the R. R. V. R. So much so was this 
 the case that even after the request 
 had been made for the necessary order-in- 
 council the money did not come and I was 
 told again that It was because they feared 
 some of it might be spent towards the 
 object they did not want to support. In 
 reference to the transaction with Messrs. 
 Drummond Bros., of Montreal, with re- 
 gard to the sale of the Provincial bonds, I 
 may say that early last winter I received 
 letters trom a banking house in Montreal 
 — Messrs. Hanson Bros.— stating that 
 should the Province require to negotiate 
 any loan they would undertake to do It; In 
 fact that they were ready themselves to 
 make an offer for the bonds of the Pro- 
 vince if we required to sell any. At that 
 time the House was not yet In session 
 and nothing had been decided as to wheth- 
 er this loan was required or not. Later 
 on, after the act authorizing the Govern- 
 ment to borrow the sum of ?1^00.000 was 
 passed, I telerainphed Hanson Btos.,Mont- 
 real, stating that we were on the eve of 
 negotiating a loan of ^1,000,000 and 
 If they were prepared to make 
 any offer I would like to have 
 It. I received a telegram stating that 
 they were prepared to make an offer above 
 par. I answered that we wanted a more 
 definite offer than that, and the next tele- 
 gram that came said that they would be 
 ready to give at least 1^ premium, and 
 perhaps better. At the same time the 
 Merchants' bank was requesting to be al- 
 lowed to tender for the bonds; and the 
 Imperial bank also stated that they wish- 
 ed to be allowed to tender. The firm of 
 McMaster, Hammond & Co., of Toronto, 
 also wired that they wanted the option of 
 making an offer. So that seeing aU these 
 offers I left here, the House being still in 
 session, and went to Montreal. On my 
 way down I received acoupleof despatches, 
 one from the Merchants' bank, Winni- 
 peg, requesting me to call at their head < 
 offices at Montreal before closing any sale; 
 the other telegram was from the Govern- 
 ment here stating that Drummond Bros., 
 
 
 I believe It was 
 
 of a standing offer at 119. 
 for two or three days only and I was re- 
 quested when I arrived in Montreol to 
 Interview thos e people. On my ar- 
 rival there I called at the Mer- 
 chants' bank and saw their manager 
 
as 
 
 at is to say 
 le Federal 
 he C. P. R. 
 which was 
 Qts' Bank 
 ), agreed to 
 ent., not to 
 atement of 
 whereby i 
 e per cent. 
 y money to 
 )vince, and 
 H that none 
 wards pay- 
 action with 
 I was tliin 
 e request 
 y order-in- 
 I and I wa8 
 hey feared 
 >wards the 
 ipport. In 
 tn Messrs. 
 1, with re- 
 al bonds, I 
 • I received 
 I Montreal 
 ,ting that 
 
 > negotiate 
 to do it; in 
 mselves to 
 if the Pro- 
 r. At that 
 in session 
 I to wheth- 
 lot. Later 
 he Govem- 
 100.000 was 
 lh>s.,Mont- 
 the eve of 
 )0,000 and 
 to make 
 
 to have 
 Ating that 
 offer above 
 ed a more 
 3 next tele- 
 would be 
 lium, and 
 
 time the 
 g to be al- 
 ; and the 
 they wish- 
 e firm of 
 I Toronto, 
 
 > option of 
 ;all these 
 Dg still in 
 1. On my 
 lespatches, 
 ik, Wlnni- 
 beir head* 
 g any sale; 
 le Govem- 
 }nd Bros., 
 
 6 pr.-.Yiicge 
 leve it was 
 I was re- 
 ontreol to 
 I my ar- 
 the Mer- 
 manager 
 
 with the 
 
 presii 
 llan. 
 
 
 > 
 
 iS^;r'i;:f^ ^/^ Mj.AlianSv«y23s^ 
 ance possible so far as he could givesnch 
 assia&nce, in every shape and form! After 
 
 a consultation Witt the director oftte 
 bank, I was informed that the bank on 
 
 Jh^^l?' ^« "P?«'*l circumstiSSTs ot 
 
 nM«^^r*"Ly'''i°8 ^ do'wiSh the 
 purchase of our bonds-after they them- 
 
 ^ lo ta'n'n-^"*?^ earnestly to lisanow. 
 ^«»-^°^' '°'' '**SJ' purchase. I Inter- 
 viewed Messrs. Drummond Bros. & 
 
 wlv«;r^°f*l'l*''«y «o"'d not T any 
 Zf'/^f^^F^^^^^^ offer they had made 
 
 hi ±2^ ^^V^*^ *•»»' offer ^even had to 
 fh-^°^™^^ ^y **»« syndicate with which 
 they were then organizing in England. I 
 am very sorry thaF I have not a c^y of 
 
 giving the names of that syndicate.' The 
 PJ^h*?*™ were not MortoL, Ro8e& Co 
 «»?/«f* ?« ?1* *>« *»»°kers for the lyiid ! 
 1^%™"^*!?®** *? P««l««e our binds. 
 In the meantime I heard from Hanson 
 
 S^ '"**°.;!^^*' could be done to 
 AnH «.°''****J^ the purchase of the bonds^ 
 h^^i.l''®/^'^™!^*'?' -' the bonds coiSd 
 be handed over within a very short time 
 
 ?hf JL ^'iA ^^^ «i7« »'»y certainty that 
 ».S^7"^"***,fe "o disallowance then they 
 ZZW^"" ^^'' well, the offer of Dram- 
 luondBros. was l&J, and under thcSe 
 
 i«^«; « "**■ ?*'1*°8 O" ^^o or three other 
 institutions I found myself back here 
 
 D™,S?±"^"^'' of thenegotiationS^ 
 i&i°°^** *?™"- '^*h ^«^ people 
 lilwl '° *^^? course of conversatfon 
 with these gentlemen the question of dis- 
 allowance was referred to, and they told 
 ^H„^» fK*^ question migfit affect the po- 
 
 ^t^A^ the danger of uncertainty of the 
 act under which we then went Being al- 
 i^^***i'?*"f*°_P? *he statutes hid a 
 SK^wS^ '° ^° ^i^ <^he reluctance with 
 which the men of fi.tance were wlUina to 
 purchase our bonds. After my return I 
 ^£il^5^ * telegram, which was cited the 
 2^^'^h. »8fci?K me to confirm the offer 
 ftrom Morton, Rose & Co. Well, at the 
 sametime there were two or three gentle- 
 K *?K *^® "'^^T ^«" '^ho pretended 
 inSi iS*®/ ^u*^"'** ^° better than 
 Jh^^^i* ai?*y *^^^^ 8ive 103, they 
 ^n««S5H They were cabling all over the 
 
 or friends. Imavgaythey were aT the 
 
 SWfJ^^ii?^'"%^?P« *hat we would 
 still do better, and there was no imme- 
 dtate necessity for closing the matter. 
 Therefore, after waiting » ressoaabl" 
 time, at the request of some of these'p^". 
 
 ^.li K*°te®^ *^« pffe' that had been 
 made by Drummond Bros., to Morton, 
 Rose & Co., and I received an acknow- 
 1?™?^??*°' that confirmation. A Kt 
 «lS1«i«r^"**^"^*^«<* another cable 
 stating that on account of the opposition 
 
 I fl}^*" ^J^*"*! Ctevetnment to our loan 
 
 ' K- K "-■ "°*^ undertake to negotiate 
 
 those bonds, and therefore had to with- 
 
 MoTJ!"'*' °^r' l^K^ "«tly the^^- 
 Ji-? '^o '[ere in. At the same time un- 
 l?^^^^]F Z% thought the loan was first 
 Slff*'^"*^ K f;* ^.T«' ^^ °e^er thought the 
 act would bedisallowed.we were un^er the 
 impression that itwould be allowed to run 
 L.t2J'ft.*^'J."/' *•"' afterwards we ascert- 
 alned that before we could have the bonds 
 lithographed, printed and taken over to 
 the money market, the act would be dis- 
 
 f}}^T^ *?? ^^'i* '.*»« 'o»u would there- 
 fore be null and of no effect. So after 
 nlt-^n * ascertained that the act would be 
 Mnll ♦T®'*'.' au8*»ered these parties that 
 Ji^®f i circumstances we were not en- 
 tertaining any further offers, because we 
 were on the point ot contemplating a 
 wt"^5'°l'',* '""'*«?' borrowing money. 
 We did not know whether we would call 
 «^ »?°H?® together for further legisUtion 
 n^'^w'''*" we would borrow under the 
 provisions of the treasury act by issuing 
 «^ff"^>S?»- When the question o? 
 •* y"*..*^^®""* together oCme up we 
 8»»d: "What will bethe use until we arl 
 Xn'^.'^.' the Federal government wlU 
 ~t^."'®*'P*"l'y'^«'o»u re-enact and 
 re-enact over and over again any lesisla- 
 
 li'lnJ'^^ '•'•'y ''}}^ disallow Tr^mSiate- 
 ly, and then we will not be in any bettor 
 ^ition than we are today." So we 
 thought as the Treasury act was in force 
 £hifi"**^°?''**'l^»o''«d thatltwouW 
 be bettor to issue Treasury bonds and bor- 
 fSrf i!?.. nV>uey, under the provisions of 
 that act. I shall not go through the de- 
 
 ^.ffl^'ii^f®"*^*'"*"*"^ ">at tS>k plaSI, 
 suffice It to say we went to Ne w York,ha<i 
 
 honHl^'f**^*.*^P'>u^ «"d not sell ou? 
 bonds. (Laughter.) I shall now deal with 
 a few other mattere that have been 
 »^li?*''."L*"*"«^«*>»*« •ud In which I 
 T^^il V ™*"® personally concerned. 
 t^» T ™*,¥ * "Kular confession if I 
 knew I could set absolution from these 
 gentlemen, but! know I can get that K 
 the proper authorities acrofs the riro™ 
 (Laughter.) Iwlsh to refer to the handing 
 
 ?;f?&*^*P'V^*J<'« o' *e bonds K 
 to the Hudson's Bay railway-to this sm- 
 •256,000 wo ■ 
 
 ?J?^h«'^L°' "** f^OOO worth of bonds 
 *o*ho oompanv. As was stated this after- 
 »^"^m**°^°5.S'« debate last night. 
 »128,000 worth of these bonds had alrwdy 
 been handed over, properly or not. to the 
 conteactors of that compiiv on the o»de? 
 of the president of the ^company andta 
 
 ^t^STt^^^^li^TS' ''"^ C'^contSaS 
 fn«f^-iSV* ^^^ ^t company. But be- 
 5"1j hauling over the second half it was 
 decided that the government shZldm^ 
 ^i"?i'^^*i*"'^8rant which bad been 
 made to that company by the Federal 
 Government would be field over subjwt to 
 
 S™JSi^"^*5.M''°?l'* becoSfoS 
 P^^^ ** security for the amount that 
 S.«hoMT""S?^.^*» furnishing In order 
 to subsidize that company. I therafom 
 proceeded to Ottawa in*^erto sSSI^thS 
 
84 
 
 thin transfer would be made, and In order 
 to be sure that the Province had proper 
 pecurlty in accordance with the arrange- 
 mentH made in accordance with the act. It 
 being Saturday I proceeded straight to 
 Montreal and very fortunately because I 
 met there one of the contractors, Mr. 
 Mann, who was waiting there to receive 
 those bonds. I was called on by that gen- 
 tleman, who was accompanied by a To- 
 ronto lawyer, a Mr. Klnghmill, I think, 
 who was acting on his behalf, and then 
 and there I was told that Mr. Mann, of 
 the firm of Mann & Holt, expected that I 
 would hand over those debentures forth- 
 with. The debentures in the meantime, 
 which had not been allogether completed, 
 wanting my signature, were deposited 
 with the Mercnants' Bank at Mom real. I 
 told Mr. Mann I could not hand over 
 those bonds until I was satisfied that the 
 land transfer was made to the company, 
 and that these lands were transferred 
 over to the order of the Local Govern- 
 ment. On this I was told by the lawyer 
 that in accordance with the agreement oe- 
 tweeu the company and Provincial Gov- 
 ernment, they had performed their work 
 In accordance with the provisions of that 
 contract, that in accordance with the or- 
 der-in-council between the Local Govern- 
 ment and the comoany. It was not neces- 
 sary that such transfer should be 
 confirmed. I did not go to the trouble of 
 ascertaing whether strictly speaking 
 the order-in-council would bear that 
 contention, but I said whether it 
 was so or not, my orders were strictly to 
 ascertain that the transfer would be made 
 and confirmed before we handed over 
 these debentures. On that objection we 
 had a little quarrel, as a lawyer will al- 
 ways quarrel when his contention is dis- 
 puted. I said if this was a legal matter I 
 would go down town and secure the as- 
 8istanc« of a lawyer, and get the two to 
 fight the case. At last I got annoyed and 
 told Mr. Mann I would have nothing to do 
 with him, that so far as that matter was 
 concerned I had definite instructions and 
 would follow them, and if he was not sat 
 
 isfled I would return to Winnipeg. Xiater 
 on I walked out of the room, and Mr. Boss, 
 who was then present, came out and 
 begged me to go back into the room. Mr. 
 Kingsley was asked to retireand we talked 
 the matter over in a more sensible manner. 
 I was asked what I intended to do, and 
 said I intended to go to Ottawa, that when 
 lascertained theorder-in-councii was vest- 
 ed in the Local Government, that we have 
 security, then you shall get your bonds. 
 The day after, Monday, Mr. Mann, the 
 lawyer and myself proceeded to Ottawa. 
 On reaching Ottawa I asked for an inter- 
 
 ♦ •T7rT -ritir :jji u-jllU. it was B IIIUC priUZ 
 
 to the Federal elections, in the early part 
 of February and most of the ministers 
 were away, only Sir John and Mr. Pope 
 being in Ottawa at the time. I received 
 an answer to my request that I would find 
 him in his own house the following morn- 
 
 ing at 11 o'clock. On the following morn< 
 ing I drove down and asked the lawyer, aa 
 he pretended to be a personal friend of 
 Sir John's, to come down, telling him he 
 might be of assistance to his friends by im- 
 pressing Sir John with his views. 
 We reached Sir John's house, and after 
 telling him the object of my mission he 
 said : " vVell, I can t do anything here, we 
 had better adjourn into Mr. Pope's office, 
 in the department of railways and canals, 
 and we will see what the matter is." So 
 that same afternoon we adjourned into 
 Mr. Pope's office and there, after waiting 
 a little while, Sir John came in and Mr. 
 Schreiber was sent for. He was vsked if 
 he had a report on the state of fcbe work 
 performed on the Hudson's Ba - rail- 
 way. He said yes, he had &' report 
 from Mr. Forrest, and he went fo/ that 
 report and read it. I am t<oU)g into 
 the details of the interview because 
 the result was so unsatisfactory that 
 I think it is ray duty to give the whole 
 matter in its fullest detail. He read Mr. 
 Forrest's report, which was not exactly 
 very faTorable, but at the same time was 
 not unfavorable, because, though very 
 doubtful on some of the work performed, 
 there was always an excuse or remedy 
 pointed out in th*- »«port. So that the re- 
 port was a sort <^L milk and water a/fair 
 and coula be either favorable or unfavor- 
 able, as the case might be. On this Sir 
 John himself asked Mr. Schreiber if on the 
 strength of that report he could make a 
 favorable report so that a recommendation 
 might be made to council in order thus to 
 confirm the grant of land to the Manitoba 
 Government. Mr. Schrieber said, yes, he 
 could make such a report. Thereupon he 
 was asked to do so, and immediately Sir 
 John and Mr. Pope started drafting a re- 
 port to council, Sir John dictating and 
 Mr. Pope writing on his desk what Sir 
 John dictated. Mr. Pope was asked to 
 make that report himself as acting Minis- 
 ter of the Interior, as the late Mr. White 
 was out electioneering In some western 
 part of the Province. When that draft 
 was made I remember perfectly well that 
 I myself suggested some amendment. 
 For instance, it was reported there that 
 though this grant for the first 40 miles of 
 the road was made it was understood 
 that not another acre of land would be 
 granted the company until another 40 
 miles would have been completed— until 
 these first 40 miles were put in operation. 
 I suggested that as by the act the compa- 
 ny was compelled to build by sections of 
 50 miles, it would be better, perhaps, to 
 state In the order that no other acre of 
 land wold be granted until the first fifty 
 miles had been completed and put in oper- 
 auon. xnis Tvas accepted and the ciiauue 
 made, and after we had completed this < 
 work Sir John turned round and said, 
 "Mr. Pope, you will send this to Mr, 
 McGee," (clerk of the Privy Council) and ' 
 he turned round to me and said, "You 
 can consider that this Is passed, and you 
 
 h 
 
86 
 
 fins nioni* 
 ) lawyer, M 
 t\ friend of 
 Dg him he 
 endaby im- 
 tiis Tlews. 
 and after 
 misBlon he 
 ig here, we 
 pe's omce, 
 ind canals, 
 terls," So 
 urned into 
 9r waiting 
 in and Mr. 
 as \Rked if 
 '. fcb»? worit 
 Bv rail- 
 a report 
 I', io:.^ that 
 <o^)g into 
 V because 
 :lor> that 
 the whole 
 ! read Mr. 
 9t exactly 
 I time was 
 ugh very 
 )erformed, 
 or remedy 
 hat the re- 
 ■ater affair 
 r unfavor- 
 1 this Sir 
 tr if on the 
 d malie a 
 nendation 
 ler thus to 
 Manitoba 
 Id, yes, he 
 reupon he 
 lately Sir 
 itiuK a re- 
 iting and 
 what Sir 
 asked to 
 [ng Minis- 
 llr. White 
 i western 
 that draft 
 ' well that 
 tendment. 
 here that 
 ) miles of 
 nderstood 
 would be 
 Qother 40 
 ted— until 
 operation. 
 le compa- 
 ictions of 
 rhaps, to 
 r acre of 
 first fifty 
 It in oper- 
 le ciiamce 
 Jted this • 
 and said, 
 s to Mr. 
 ncil) and ' 
 id, "You 
 and you 
 
 ean hand over your bonds." I was per- 
 fectly Mtisfled and turned round to talk 
 about something else. I tell you very frank- 
 ly I talked about the elections that were 
 coming on in the Province at the time. It 
 was on the eve of the general election and 
 we had doubt over that election, and I told 
 »lr John. This was strictly private, but 
 the position I have been placed in 
 these matters compels me to bring up 
 these private matters in order to Justify 
 myself and in order to vindicate the posi- 
 tion I have been put in. I suggested that 
 If a certain telegram was sent to one of 
 the candidates here in reference to a grant 
 which a railway company was ankinir— I 
 may state It was the Winnipeg, St. Boni- 
 lace & Carillon railway company of which 
 my hon. friend on the other side wi at 
 the time a director, and had been apph la 
 for a land grant— I said if a telegram w^ 
 sent to the member for Provencher prom- 
 ising a grant to that company it would 
 help him. And I further said the com- 
 pany should receive such assistance from 
 the Government because it was the only 
 company in the Province that had under- 
 J»*en t«) build a road on the east side of 
 the Bed Elver that had been favorable 
 yec. Immediately Sir John requested me 
 to telegraph in a certain way as he did 
 no/' ^want to do It himself. I 
 arked Sir John to be kind enough 
 to draft a teleoram which should be 
 "wpt and so he did. I have got this or- 
 iginal telegram prepared by fflr John him- 
 self. Here is the telegram written in Sir 
 John 8 own handwritfng in the office of 
 the Minister of Railways and Canals: "I 
 have seen Sir John A. Macdonald and Mr. 
 Pope. After receiving such assurance I 
 wired my colleagues here stating that the 
 maUer of forty miles in favor of the H. B. 
 R. R. company was settled, and request- 
 ing thena to pass the necessary orders in 
 council that 1 should be in a position to 
 hand over the bonds to the contractors as 
 per agreement with the JI.B.R. company. 
 When I received later on another tele- 
 gram showing a certain amount of un- 
 easiness on the tMurt of my colleagues here 
 as to whether the order in council had 
 been properlv passed or not, I was in Ot- 
 tawa 1>ut unfortunately all the members 
 of the government had left and I was on 
 my way back to Winnipeg. I traveUed 
 aU through the buildhigs and found not a 
 single member of the government at the 
 time In Ottawa. After ascertaining that, 
 oeing. perfectly satisfied and honestly 
 believing that everything was all right. I 
 wired to my colleagues that everything 
 was ail right; the order was then issued 
 covering the grant fortheflrst 40 miles. 
 As I had seen the order copied to the rec- 
 ommendation in council and being assur- 
 ed tixa,t it was aa aood as massed T v,'tin 
 satisfied everything was alfright.' I m^ 
 ^y that when I caUed in Ottawa last 
 time on other public business, when the 
 question was taken up I was very much 
 suHHTised to learn from Sir John himself 
 
 that he never made any such prohiise, in 
 fact that he had never met me in Mr. 
 Pope s olHce. I have shown this telegram 
 and read this telegram In order to prove 
 that I met Sir ,7ohn Macdonald. that Thad 
 seen hhii in Mr. Pope's oflice, and I have 
 air John sown handwriting to prove the 
 same. In regard to the promise-well, I 
 have only nay own statement as against 
 that of Sir John, liut as part of his state- 
 ment IS false, as I have proven here, in re- 
 
 ^^y,V°.,'^'*®1**>^''^ia''^ nope my friends 
 will believe I am stating the truth. 
 
 Mr. Martin- What did Pope and Schrei- 
 ber say ? 
 
 Mr. I^Riviere— Mr. Schrieber said he 
 »??°o^u'"."?*''™«- When I said to him, 
 ..«/-,?*°'''^^'"' y°" never met me hare *" 
 ^®.l''X??;l ^« »*'<*; "I think we have 
 "^^ 'Did you nevar see me in this of- 
 
 met. 
 
 '•Pi®'.^.^: ^'y**®'^'' *" ^ said. 'Yes," he re 
 plied: "but Sir John was not here." 
 "Mr. Martin -What about Pope i 
 Mr. LaRIvlere-He Mid not remember. I 
 am very sorry, Mr. Speaker, that I have 
 to go into these details, I know my posi- 
 tion. I know that a certain class of peo- 
 ple will say that Sir John being such a 
 great man and I being such a scoundrel— 
 A. i . Martin— Yes, yes. 
 ,^'' J^i^fire—Aa is said on the other 
 side of the House, Sir John must of course 
 have said the truth, and I must not only 
 have had no promise from Sir John; not 
 o^y that he never met me in Mr. Pope's 
 office; but I believe he undertook to con- 
 vince me that I never was in Ottawa. 
 (LAughter.) This leads me to another per- 
 sonal question; that is, a question that has 
 been made personal by those on the other 
 side, and that is the question of priutine. 
 If there is a thing I am glad of, Mr. 
 bpeaker. it is my intention to go out of 
 politics in order not to hear any more 
 about printing. Reference has been made 
 In regard to the printing of the depart- 
 mental report of the Department of Agri- 
 culture. It is a very valuable rewrt, Mr. 
 Speaker; nobody will deny that; though 
 there may be some figures which should 
 not have found their place there, and the 
 volume might not have been so volumin- 
 ous, still there was so much good matter 
 in it that no one will deny that it was im- 
 portant and Interesting. The only trouble 
 was it took a long time to got into print, 
 therefore its usefulness was gone when it 
 canae out. I wrote to a firm . in Montreal 
 askinir how much they would charge to 
 print this report. Before an answer came 
 I was mterviewed by AmosRowe,of Rowe 
 & Co. On account of the' existing print- 
 Ing contract the work had to be done by 
 them, although they were only contractors 
 for the English printing. Therefore they 
 said that the Government could not under 
 tsiS ciiatiiig circumstances order any 
 printing to be done elsewhere. 
 
 Mr. Martin— Was that contract in writ- 
 ing ? 
 
 Mr. LaRiviere-Yes, it was in writina. 
 Mr. Martiu— What year was It in } 
 
86 
 
 L^l.'.if'^X''"*"-' •"» »ot '«» » position to 
 
 Hay Just now. 
 Mr. Martin- Was It In 1883 f 
 Mr. LaRlvlere-Thore was a contract I 
 
 wh^nfH®™^'*?'?*y-9«°"»' »t the time, 
 ZuZ^h, ™* *&*' '»'^<^" the existing con- 
 tract this work would have to be given to 
 these parties. Afterwards theywei* told 
 
 work'"''^fn ^^ '^""•'^.' t*»«y hid to doThS 
 wf^'^J*^ the meantime as these iMople 
 were not In a position to do the woVk In 
 HhouirKa"?'"^ thev agreed that the work 
 should be done In Montreal, but at their 
 own benefit and profit. Of course I had no^ 
 
 con?ol^'*°.hr"*'-.*^? department that 
 controlled the printing or the de- 
 
 ^n?'"?^! ^'. '•»« Attomer-General, 
 m« h-^H® Kf**7'fi^ ''^ ^he time given 
 wL *^-^.*^ ^followed. Whenever work 
 was sent down or when payments 
 
 R^w-W^T'^i^^^ ^«'« mXoverto 
 STTSi^J^- '"'' '^* *"?"»h printing or to 
 T^~ii''i"r?°**''°J'°'' '^« *'"'^ch printing: 
 lK)vell & Co. used to write me as I w£ 
 
 personally acquainted with them/asklS 
 me to get tliese parties to remit Si 
 T^^^^^ 'J^^y n°t«<» them. I bell^l 
 
 h^ !i'°^ ^^'L* 'Ji"» *»««° paid to them 
 5°™ ,to time by the respective parties. 
 
 S,«nn^7 "/**'?'* thattSlsschekehad 
 been prepared and concocted by Mr. Bur- 
 rows and myself. I may state thatMr. 
 SuTTh-***^^"""" ^ noconnwtkS 
 Ifl«r ha® u'V"^^- R'^y hiter on or 
 TimL A, A ^f^ P^chasea the plant of the 
 SsTlfuff™ he Become proprietor of that 
 l?«n~^ "il* It was only later en that he 
 h»o^5i . .u°?' .£' course, assumed the 
 SSffhf/ ''"** °^'^- B"t the first pay- 
 meats that were made to a prinUng office 
 m,^'*?h'^'^^^,^"'^^*Co. WhenffS^d 
 wMnh ?°'''°?/"°M°K ot that book^f 
 Zh\oh i«>»Wm>tjudg3 from the M.s;, 
 »^„ f^K.Tf* ^®1I extensive, and I neve^ 
 thought It would cost that much. I made 
 up my mind that although the HousThSd 
 
 th? vll?'"l^"'P°,!;^P"^>'°r« them f^ 
 «H«fi5^f l^' .*"^ ordered It to be 
 printed to the extent of 3,000 to 4,000 co^ 
 k.8. 1 would not allow the work to go oS. 
 Therefore I think that Instead cS being 
 wte**«''"^*"*5*^™P'«ted that report 
 which, once begun, would have been a 
 
 I ^n'w l*** ,5 S°* *»»^e heen completed, 
 I think I should be complimented in not 
 
 allowing tlie report for 18ftl, which would 
 nave cost more, Iwing more volumlnom. 
 wh!IllSJ*."KS"**K Therefore! say that the 
 fl?f h °' 'Ws huHlneHH was done In good 
 ^^a'a ^.**?' y- ha« cost the Provlace a 
 f^v^ ^tf'i .***™*t and 1 am very sorry for 
 It, but had I not stopped the printing of 
 ^te 'JP?*"'*' *^?" '^'ter the House had 
 ordered them to be printed, It would huve 
 n^^tl-FfJ^}***' "'o™' hut I thought 
 RI^'^'*u ^}^^ 4'?® '° "top that In order to 
 iflnlsh what had been oriered-and partly 
 ^°°e- , Now, with reference to what per- 
 sonal Interest I may have, I may naV I 
 [have not the least Interest In the concern 
 excepUnKthatI should like that esUb! 
 llshment to be In a flourishlnp- position In 
 alr®^^ maintain the paper which has 
 served me so well during my political ca- 
 reer. I am sorry that that establishment 
 and myself are not today in a position to 
 meet even our own proper llablHtles. 
 
 THB LOVHLL PBIMTINO. 
 
 To the Editor of the Free Preas. 
 I ^"*'T^®^?X®J"'»t3eenacopy of your 
 iS?.«?,^J '¥ J/''*' *?5^- y^hlch cbbtalns aa 
 account of Hon. Mr. LaRlvlere's speech 
 
 iSf^^r""^ ^°'''.^'- Martins chkn^es 
 fhi?iS/l®^'n."?«**°°« hy us. We deny 
 thatMr.LaBlviere gave us the printing 
 through friendliness. He first had a ten- 
 der frona us for the work and gave it be- 
 cause of our low figures. We did not 
 know the firm of Rowe & Co. In the mat- 
 ter, in fact did not know until now of the 
 existence of any such firm. We opened 
 the account in our ledger in the name of 
 the Department of Agriculture and ren- 
 dered our accounto to the department. 
 We have no copy of, nor do we remember 
 evOT having sent an account to Mr. La- 
 Riviere personally; if we did so it must 
 have been at his request. 
 
 ^P^^L^^ ^"^ ™*^e on the Minister 
 of Agriculture and were paid to the ex- 
 
 ^L°«i^"J.^*f^' ^«»^°? » halance of 
 at>out 9465 still due us on the work. 
 
 We understood at the time that our 
 
 tender for the work was at least 30 per 
 
 cent under what it would have cost if 
 
 done in Winnipeg. We did not solicit the 
 
 ^S5*^' ^ , m, ."^oo^ LovKLL & Son. 
 Montreal, May 17, 
 
 THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S ATTACK. 
 
 As IlEl'OKTBO BY THE " FrEE PrESS." 
 
 Hon. Mr. Martin, following Mr. LaRi- 
 
 briefly to the attempted defence Just made 
 by the member for St. Bonifade, totay 
 ^L I rr"*^® "^^ requested by the Pro- 
 vmcial Treasurer to mention that in read- 
 .ng over me list of minklen* who had 
 overdrawn their salaries, he omittodto 
 «n""f'?**Vl*^5« Hon.C.E. HamiltonTon 
 receiving the demand which the Govern- 
 went issued to the ministers, to return 
 
 fi«?,^°'iM °f then- overdrafts into the 
 SSf£^J*'?i; *'^°® °' "•®^8 ex-ministers 
 
 ^^*^ SOTvices he had not rendered. 
 BpthMr.Norquay and Mr. LaRlviere 
 
 denied that, thnv ho/j >ir» , « J; j I *'r™ 
 
 demand. re.-xrcu =urii a 
 
 Mr. Martin— I can show these honor- 
 able gentlemen the copies of the letters 
 sent them on this suyect by my depart- 
 ment. With regard to the cli^ "f 
 
2^7 
 
 the 
 
 St. 
 
 
 PW»on«t snlniMitT made urAlnat 
 i^f^.;" ^»«"»5th™m.inb5?'"f?r 
 
 h/SLi;^^?"'**"'-"^ ^l"* not refer to him; 
 
 iS^JiH "*"?*?"*' charKes againHt me." 
 
 nf mT; *'^"iP~' '«»^« 't to the judgment 
 
 mont made by the treasurer Ih not the 
 
 .STHON()KHT PKR80NAL CIIARHK 
 
 tvUhllffh®''*'" ^\H^ awinst a member 
 wllhin the walls of this House, and if that 
 ^t*"'"^"^ not In effect made agaSt 
 the member lor St. MonlfaceT Hut 
 
 notTnteti^*/^ '*•*'«« *^« Treas'^^r Sas 
 H« n^JS^'^^J" •?/ personal animositv. 
 He confined himself strictly to a plain un 
 ^orned statement of factsleavinK to the 
 
 Sustli^lfi.^"^*"" °' ^^^ infereS?es that 
 ^rt thf ^^''^l** HPO? '«>™ those facts 
 n^Jht'T'^^^^^^'^ member for St 
 Boniface had not in the slightest dem-ee 
 
 lm^*slSn?«fr"'°"'?u« *¥ "n'avorabll 
 impression left upon the minds of honor- 
 
 ment8""flS'Sl?f„''y'*»« Treasurer's stX 
 Jh« .vf-SfK** *?® I»«onal transactions of 
 r^^t^tH"^^' .^.°' ^^- Boniface regardinK 
 certain printing matters. He telU us 
 
 fri«*„H°.°°? ^^^^ *cted simply m the 
 friend and agent of John Loveh ind Com- 
 
 ffii^.tS^r?*^°i^K*° «««"«'' from the 
 rimes and Canadian printing comnknlM 
 moneys properly payable to tLt fl^Sf^T? 
 ten?" *°. *SP'y ^'»** Lovell & C un. 
 
 hM5ifJ±*.*°^! '° *^«°» *° this light 
 Ills statement Is disproved by the coSb- 
 spondence between that Arm Vd hiS 
 dil^iIL* •i"^'" ^ M*"- J- Henderson who 
 fr^,i?® primary went In exposing these 
 I^^a' ^°^«"&^n state that the Mms- 
 spondenoe they received from Mr/ l2- 
 Rlvlere they understood came from him 
 i?i'it"*??*"y**]»«*d ofthedepMtmeS 
 of agriculture, and their drafts w^made 
 against and paid by the wovlBcild K^ 
 urer while the orders they received ^m « 
 
 f« ^So^l&tiiteSr- St. Bonlf^ 
 
 .lii.ifl^''''. '*°*"' '*''• M*rtln r«ad over the 
 algnlflcant passages in the correapondencS 
 between Mr. l.aUlvler^ nud I^Tpft s?^ 
 As these letters were read by Mr. jS 
 ™^*a"tttir"'^ '^ *- "°' n^ecessiS,'^!^ 
 
 tonor of this correspond ncSL Tf LoiJll 
 §o?°e?nrnl ^'5"' -ntractors'iiWj 
 
 BVBN PAID TUB PKBIOIIT 
 
 on this report from Montreal to WinnlDea 
 and over that matter like so ma iv oShe; 
 fla?"sTiH V ^.^° '^*7. Partlcljated Yn sfm": 
 
 t^^tr a^'Kr w'iVgr "Si 
 
 was not satisfled with the proK wvJn 
 or eight thousand dollars but wa^ to 
 ?«it^ *^ ^° ''*P«<=t ''°«' th« Provh *e the 
 
 KNOWS TO BE 0NTRUB 
 
 or Lovell & Son are writing to the Gov- 
 emmentwhat Is false. 1 chall^ge Uie 
 honorable member for St. BonlfSce to 
 
 hTSiut^^^K^^^ T* '^If contention If 
 ne falls to do this his failure will arisA 
 
 '^^}^u, °°°-«^l«tence of an7 d^u^en^ 
 
 tor^t oi^nof J" ^"PP"'"' o' ^^ asserSon. 
 lor It cannot be supposed that he is so 
 unwise as not to havVpreserved luTy such 
 written proof which may have come into 
 his possession, since to-ilght he has orov? 
 
 tiJt^^^A^l ««hibidSga meremK- 
 randum which he preserved to prove his 
 
 ^?P„"?,*. .oj. '^, ^interview ^eld iuh sS 
 niihi<r^''J;r"^'" correct, when the hon- 
 orable gentleman is unable to nro. 
 ^«c« before the House any wrreaponden^ 
 
 rJ~i,.V.-v v^vovi irom me Frovhu^e the 
 
 laS* 'in m"""°« **».» ^^^ hundred dol 
 .5"' ^V^'Wa connection a remarkable in 
 cldent had come to light. wKheTlon" 
 Dr. Harrison became Mholster of aaricnl- 
 ture through which department thfw 2c 
 counts would have to be paid, themtmb^; 
 
 fn^hi" ^K°u"*<'« *•*«"'! this item 
 in the public accounts from freiah? 
 on the agricultural report to freljht on 
 books so that the item fnightpass throuBh 
 his new department, the trc^uir SSd 
 
 mft^""'rh"art5^°K''^« accounS'cSm. 
 mittee. What did he enter into thi« 
 
 tJ^n"?? 1" *f °?| to mislead the coui" 
 t^and abstract »8,000 from the pubUc 
 
 Mr. LaRIvIere— I deny It. 
 
 Mr. MMtln-I know you do. 
 
 Mr. LaRlviere-lt Is a rule of this Hous« 
 
 solid phalanx of supnortere hJm^^ 
 
 ing his denials. Now some of thiii. 
 phaUnx has been transfen^ llJSly 
 
 Sf h^® ?2?'"*^i'« °.' <^be gentled ffi*? 
 to the other side of the House, and ImI, 
 S?St""^. mistaken if the^ raeib^ 
 after the statements made bv the tP»S-«rr 
 
 nf T^*^ '^ 'T'-^'-'y tKy did the "enlals 
 of the member for St. Boniface. He "avl 
 he had no connection with the P«t«wi«fc 
 ment which shared the profit of the 13' 
 ?"ito"! tjansacOon I have been «XTOsini" 
 ft Ws statement be true we mSt'coffile 
 
 THE MOST COMPLBTE IDIOT 
 
 in the country. If he went into this tran. 
 
 l7M0";^nflfT'^*""^ himself toSiirto; 
 *7,000 profit to a man named TMrtnl 
 over in St. Botitace he displayed X-h 
 complete idiocv In this ." -S^i*- --"''^ 
 
 me^tisf ^ '°°"'"*** '^** he"l8 nok wrapiL 
 
 Mr. LaRIvIere- Wouldn't you like to 
 shut me up in your lunatic asylum. 
 fJ^M Martin-No, for if we do not come 
 wh^h' conclusion there is one oUier^? 
 which we can arrive. Whet a^S} 
 
BH 
 
 I 
 
 ii i 
 
 M. 
 
 good ability and flnt-olass common sense 
 gets work done in Montreal for 94,000 and 
 certifies to, and pays out of somebodv 
 else's money 912,000 for the same work 
 then any reasonable person will be forced 
 to conclude that he entered into the trans- 
 action for his own personal advantage. 
 Members of this House who have known 
 the honorable gentleman for seven years 
 the people of the Province who have fol- 
 lowed his political career will conclude 
 that he is not the idiot. Let me repeat 
 the exact amount of this defalcation (I 
 suppose that is a parliamentary term). 
 The amount paid for printing those re- 
 ports was 913,723.72. 
 
 Mr. LaBiviere— Do you include in that 
 the pavment for the reports of 1882 ? 
 
 Mr. Martin— I am aware that item be- 
 longs to another deal. Lovel & Son were 
 to be paid 94,000, so that there was a clear 
 profit of 97,467.64 to be divided between 
 the friend of the honorable member over 
 in St. Boniface and Amos Bowe & Co. In 
 addition there was the sum of ^405.10 
 which 
 
 THESE WORTHIES FAILED TO FAY. 
 
 so that the actual profit reaped was 
 97,923.34. Why did the member for St. 
 Boniface in his capacity of friend and 
 agent to Loveil & Son, fail to recover this 
 amount of 9465.70. Can he show a line 
 of documentary evidence to prove that he 
 ever tried to recover it, or that he was 
 even charged by the firm with its re- 
 covery. 
 
 Mi, LaBiviere— Here is an account for 
 the sum which Loveil & Son rendered 
 aginst me personally when they found I 
 could not collect it from the 
 actual debtors. What correspondence I 
 had with that firm was always in 
 my private capacity and in it I never 
 signM myself minister. This account 
 proves that Loveil & Son thought they 
 were doing the work for A.A.C.LaBiviere 
 and not the Minister of Agriculture for 
 Manitoba. 
 
 Mr. Martin— I am willing to give the 
 honorable gentleman the benefit of each 
 new explanation as he makes it. In his 
 first defence he did not produce tMs docu- 
 ment but ho comes up armed with it now 
 when he finds his fint explanation does 
 not hold water. But this document is 
 
 ?uite consistent with my other statements, 
 n Mr. LaBiviere's letters to Lovell& Son 
 he speaks of the w^ork as being that 
 
 "of THIS DEPARTMENT." 
 
 What sensible business man receiving 
 such instructions in such a manner from 
 a minister would not suppose that the 
 work so spoken of was work for the de- 
 partment over which the writer of the in- 
 
 Mr. Leacbck— That's right. 
 
 Besides it is quite an ordinary matter 
 for accounts against a department to be 
 made out in the name of its official chief. 
 But to show how the honorable gentle- 
 tnan'a Iwother-in-law, the celebrated Ged- 
 
 eon Bourdoau, understood the matter, 1 
 have here a letter of instructions to Lov- 
 eil & Son, signed G. Bourdeau, 
 "Queen's Printer." The honorable 
 gentleman's idea as to this matter 
 was evidently not shared by the ofiicials 
 of his own department. But the member 
 for St. Boniface, who was socaref ul about 
 the unofficial way in which he signed 
 communications to Loveil & Son, was so 
 unfortunate as to have in his employ a 
 man, who is nothing if not official, who 
 could never deny himself the gratification 
 of subscribing himself 
 
 "acton burrows. 
 
 Deputy Minister of Agriculture, Statistics 
 and Health," and who has even handed 
 down this designation in a very peculiar 
 way to generations yet unborn. This per- 
 son's instructions to Loveil & Son 
 are all signed that way. As 
 to Mr. LaBiviere's being charged 
 personally with the amount unpaid Loveil 
 & Son there is nothing remarkable about 
 that. No doubt the firm made every ef- 
 fort to collect the money and applied for 
 it in e^ery quarter where there was any 
 ground for expecting payment. It is sig- 
 nificant, however, that the honorable gen- 
 tleman has admitted having a private let- 
 ter-book, from which he says this 
 account was taken. No doubt the gen- 
 tleman has also in that book the other 
 private corresdendence he had with Lov- 
 eil &, Son, and again challenge liim to 
 produce any correspondence in which he 
 appears as a friend acting for Loveil & 
 Son. 
 
 I don't intend to refer to the handing 
 over of the Province's bonds improperly 
 to the H. B. By. Co. That is a dead issue 
 with this Government except so far as it 
 stares tne Province in the face in the 
 shape of a liability of 930,000 or 940,000 as 
 the result of the corrupt and most unlaw- 
 ful transaction which ted to the resigna- 
 tion of the honorable gentlemen opposite 
 as a government. But what does the 
 House think of this little transaction? 
 I have here a voucher dated July 1, 1887 
 for 9200, said on the face of it to be 
 salary 
 
 DUB to W. R. NURSBY, 
 
 chargeable to appropriation for auditor's 
 office salaries, and certifie<l correct by W. 
 B. Nursey whose receipt for the amount 
 also appears. On the 16th of January, 
 twenty" days after the honorable member 
 for St.Bonlface had ceased to be treasurer 
 or a member of t-he government 
 he entered the department asked for this 
 voucher and wrote across it "Should be 
 charged to account for unforseen contin- 
 gencies as extra work done in the treasury 
 de"!irtnisnt* A. A. C iJstRivisrs- Psovina 
 ciiS Treasurer." Evidently the IJonorabTe 
 gentleman wished the voucher to appear 
 as having upon it the authentification of 
 the treasurer. 
 
 Mr. LaBiviere— I long ago instruct- 
 ed my deputy to do this out he thoui^ht 
 
matter, I 
 18 to Lov- 
 Bourdeaa, 
 
 honorable 
 A matter 
 be officials 
 tie member 
 «f ttl about 
 he signed 
 Ion, was so 
 
 employ a 
 Bcial, who 
 ratification 
 
 , Statistics 
 en handed 
 •y _peculiar 
 
 This per- 
 1 & Son 
 ^ay. As 
 ; charged 
 Mid Lovell 
 able about 
 e every ef- 
 appliea for 
 re was any 
 
 It is sig- 
 irable gen- 
 [)rivate let- 
 says this 
 
 the gen- 
 
 the other 
 with Lov- 
 nge liim to 
 which he 
 )r Lovell & 
 
 3 handing 
 Improperly 
 lead Issue 
 so far as it 
 [ace in the 
 ' 140,000 as 
 ist unlaw- 
 e reslgna- 
 in opposite 
 does the 
 ■ansaction? 
 alyl, 1887 
 C it to be 
 
 r auditor's 
 rect by W. 
 le amount 
 ! January, 
 e member 
 I treasurer 
 ovemment 
 id for this 
 'Should be 
 en contin- 
 le treasury 
 
 tionorable 
 to appear 
 fication of 
 
 I instruct- 
 le thou|fht 
 
 i 
 
 39 
 
 he had not sufficient authority and let it 
 VW- I did it because it was only clerical 
 work which was ordered before I left the 
 department and the Grovemment consent- 
 ed to it and confirmed it. 
 1 ^**i Martin— The government never al- 
 lowed that this was a proper transaction, 
 but as they could not repudiate the obli- 
 gauons of their predecessors, they were 
 obliged to pay this amount. 
 
 Mr. LaRiviere— Any niember of a gov- 
 ernment has a right to complete unfinish- 
 ed work after resigning. 
 
 Mr. Martin— He has no right to sign his 
 name as provincial treasurer. If 
 think you have 
 
 of the House provides by two commis- 
 sioners of finance and paid. On Julv 8 an- 
 other voucher went through the depart- 
 ment for faoo salary to Mr. Nursey and 
 was paid. This voucher had 
 
 you 
 
 I DESIRE TO WARN YOU 
 
 as the law officer of this government, that 
 I hope you will not carry the idea into 
 practice. If a retired minister has a right 
 to sign one document as minister, why 
 not another. ' 
 
 Mr. LaRiviere— Lone; after the time you 
 speak of the present Treasurer sent me 
 cheques to be endorsed by me as Treasur- 
 er, and my colleague, the member for St. 
 Andrew s, is still signing as president of 
 the council, commissions of persons ap- 
 pointed as justices of the peace when he 
 was in power. 
 
 Mr. Jones- That is nottrue. If cheques 
 have been signed by the member of St 
 Boniface as Treasurer of the Province 
 since I was sworn to that office, it has 
 been without my knowledge, and if he 
 has that right I will tender my resigna- 
 tion 1 o the Grovemment. 
 
 Mr. Martin— Another cheque for ?1,000 
 was paid to the Canada Publishing Com- 
 panv early in January for work to be done 
 In the future. This was certified by the 
 auditor in direct contravention of the 
 statute which directs that before a pro- 
 gressive estimate can be paid a public 
 contactor the public official having the 
 work In charge must certify that an am- 
 ount of it has been done equal in value to 
 the payment of the progressive esti- 
 mate, yet this cheque passed through 
 the treasury was certified by the auditor 
 and paid without any work being done by 
 the contractors to whom the fl.OOO wm 
 handed over. How is it possible that a 
 provincial auditor, 
 
 SUPPOSED TO GUARD 
 
 the interests of the people against any 
 improper conduct of the Ministry, could 
 fail to stop this cheque, so Improperly 
 Issued, unless there was an agreement be- 
 tween the treasurer and the auditor to 
 this effect— you let a little thing go 
 through 'or^e now and then juid T will 
 •lO tne ssuie by you. This man 
 Is supposed to be the officer of 
 the House though it happens that the 
 manner of his appointment was such that 
 he can he removed by Order-in-Council. 
 On Jr.iy 2 a voucher for 9200 salary to Sfr. 
 Nursi y was properly passed through the 
 department. It was signed as the law 
 with reference to expenditures for officers 
 
 NO SIGNATURE UPON IT. 
 
 save Mr. Nursey's own. In August $144 
 for salary to Mr. Nursey was paid on the 
 simple authentlficatlon of the gentleman 
 receiving the amount. In September an- 
 other $134 was paid to himself. In direct 
 violation of the law, by the gentleman 
 who was supposed to be protected by the 
 House in guarding the law. Why should 
 the gentleman who did not stop an un- 
 warranted payment of $1,000 to Mr. Tru. 
 del, in whom the member for St. Boniface 
 18 so interested, trouble the treasurer to 
 sign the warrants for his own salary. 
 Altogether this gentleman paid himself 
 last year $1,139 without the signatures of 
 the commissioners, as required by the 
 law. Of this the ministers who framed 
 the law respecting the duties of the audi- 
 tor must have been cognisant, but they 
 did not Interfere. On January 31 last the 
 auditor had overdrawn his salary $502. Just 
 now he is enjoying the long unaccustom- 
 ed position of having earned a little some- 
 thing for which he has not yet been paid. 
 Next year I expect to be able to lay before 
 the House a complete statement of the 
 work done by this gentleman who seems 
 to have been 
 
 AN ESPECIAL PET 
 
 of the late Grovemment. Last summer he 
 obtained leave of absence and attended 
 the Colonial Exposition. In the public 
 accounts there appears a record of this 
 holiday excursion in an item of $342.42 for 
 expenses of Mr. Nursey to Colonial Exhi- 
 bition. The present Government propose 
 that the House shall be asked to deal with 
 this man at the present session in regard 
 to these matters. And particularly In re- 
 gard to his violating the law for his own 
 benefit. 
 
 It seems like piling It on unnecessarily 
 for me to go on accumulating proof of the 
 overriding of the law by the member for 
 St. Boniface. I will, however, cite one 
 more instance. Mr, R. Latouche Tupper, 
 chief of the provincial police and license 
 Inspector, had no right to spend a single 
 cent of the money collected from licenses 
 without the sanction of the member for 
 St. Boniface. Yet he expended $7,000 
 without any authority from the treasurer. 
 If it is strange that a provincial auditor 
 should be allowed such privileges as Mr. 
 Nursey had and be found extending to 
 friends of the Government the right to 
 yiplate the law, it is quite consonant with 
 tnis thai L'ue chief of police should be al- 
 lowed to pay for his own purposes and In 
 his own way, $7,000. When one 
 considers how much of this sort 
 of thing was done It seems 
 marvellous that any institution so con- 
 ducted managed to run so long without a 
 break-down. Thousands of dollars were 
 handled in the license office 
 
40 
 
 WITHOtTT ANT BOOKS 
 
 to record the transactions represented by 
 Siii^^^Z «^<»Pt "ome loose scrapo of 
 S5^«:„ Ji^^^"^*? ^^ ^«y *l»e late iGov- 
 ernment did business; no books, no sys- 
 
 coul'/J,*f^ °^1*1 ^^^""e »" ^^^ ioneyTe 
 th« te*' """^ this perfectly agreeable to 
 the Government, tfyerythinj? was lovely 
 and no lack of election funds till the end 
 nrl^J^^' ^^^'^ ^^^^'^ «o"ld believe the 
 *hSM°° ?! *^« member for St. Boniface 
 aoout Ms attempts to borrow money, what 
 
 fln^S??-!^''*''*^^,'"''",^ .*o tJ»« credit and 
 «^ ?*A** 8|»n41«8 ot the new administra- 
 tlonl Coming mto office when the circum- 
 w^?^ °'u ^'^^ Province were at their 
 JTm^^w"^^®?!, P'® ex.premier had an- 
 "o^nced ^ that he would aladly 
 
 o?'JllK^^J?**'iPu"«''»*««''' »>ave disposed 
 of the bonds of the province at 6 per cent 
 discount the new treasurer is able to an- 
 nounce that within a few weeks of taking 
 pfBce he had so little difficulty In obtain- 
 mIT"^^.^''*'?"*'^* expenses that the 
 fc?l?*n®^?'' which douted the mem- 
 ber of St. Boniface readily oflfered all the 
 money needed at 6 per cint. Within a 
 f aw weeks ajfter the day when the ex- 
 K*?h'"^S'^^ dist^eful announce. 
 S^^**?v*^''^°<» o' ®«^toba was able 
 J? 80 to the great firm of Sir R. Garden & 
 Co. and obtain from them 
 
 HALF A MILLION MORE 
 
 dollars than the late Government tried to 
 ™«^fk*'!uP®''."P<^ premium; 9 percent 
 
 W^itt^e"- TWs must convince every- 
 
 CRKDIT OP THE PROVINCE 
 
 Zf^flli^h ""^ " ^'^ ""^^y t»»e admin- 
 istration that was wrong. If that is not 
 
 tpba that they should continue the confl- 
 Tut «« n®7 jeposed in the present admin- 
 istration I desire to p«fnt out that our es- 
 tf mates submitted yesterday make a sav- 
 ing to the Rwince In the cost of admin- 
 istration of $90,000. When we wereto 
 opposition we ventured to predict that 
 we could perform the work of governing 
 Manitoba for 8SO.O0O less tha^the late 
 mnistors. They scofTed at us then, and 
 called our suggestion an absurdity, but 
 ZIa }!'^^^ already almost 'real- 
 ized i( doubly, and we do not pro- 
 pose to devot« this large saving 
 1^«1 "1???.' P«n>0fle8 either. Weaave 
 i^ilflj ^'"■*°* to schools to ?120,000 
 and besides glvmg the same aid as was 
 
 "J ° w?? by the last Oovemment to muni< 
 cipalltles for public improvements such as 
 roads bridges, drains and the like we in- 
 tend to hand over directly to the munici- 
 P?""e8 In cash »eo.OOO or an average 
 of »600 to each. If these facts do 
 not convince the people of Manitoba of the 
 corruption of the late Government then 
 they must be very hard people to convince. 
 Honorable members opposite have 
 
 THOUGHT WELL TO TWIT US 
 
 With what they call our cheeseparing 
 policy towards certain unfortunate per- 
 sons who have been in the civil service. 
 When we were In Opposition we advocat- 
 ed that civil servants should be paid what 
 their services were worth in any ordinary 
 business house down town. This Is the 
 policy we have put Into practice, and so 
 far am I from thinking that the best has 
 yet been done in this direction that I be- 
 lieve that next year we shall still further 
 be able to reduce the cost of civil 
 admmlstratlon. We did not cutdown ex- 
 penses so unsparingly as we might this 
 year because we were deterred by the con- 
 sideration that until experience of our de- 
 partments has made us thoroughly famil- 
 iar with them we should move cautiously 
 in this direction. It Is to be understood, 
 top, that we Intend the ministers them- 
 selves win earn the J.%000 salary they get 
 by d^g a large share of the work of their 
 departments. Before we came to power 
 the ministers did 
 
 NONE OP THE WORK 
 
 In their departments, contenting them- 
 selves wltti a sort of general supervision. 
 Ihe members of this Government besides 
 the other duties which have devolved 
 upon them since taking office, have done 
 a large part of the routine work of their 
 departments, work hitherto attend- 
 ed to by the deputy ministers. 
 In Opposition we advocated abolishing 
 i",*l.?P*'®*' o' ***e deputy ministers and in 
 fulfillment of this pledge 1 will ask the 
 House on Monday to pass the second 
 reading of a bill doing away with these 
 deputies and also with the office of mu- 
 nicipal commissioner whose duties will 
 be assumed by the minister of public 
 works. It is on such fulfillment of the 
 pledges made by us when in opposition 
 that we Intend to . appeal somewhere 
 about July 10 for the verdict of the elect- 
 o" o' Manitoba, and I believe that verdict 
 wui be such an emphatic one as has never 
 been delivered in Cfanada before. 
 
 . 
 
 Floating the Provincial Bonds. 
 
 WATS AND MEANS. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Jones moved. secnndAd hw 
 
 Hon. Mr. Prendergasi, tha! the Speaker 
 
 eave the chalr.and that the House rwolve 
 
 Itself into a committee of the whole to 
 
 consider of the ways and means for rais- 
 
 iSa^* .® supply to be granted to Her 
 JuajestT. 
 
 Mr. Norquay moved in amendment, sec- 
 
 onded by Bfo. I^ock. that this House i«- 
 grete that Uta Honor the Lieuten^nf^O-.-. 
 ernor has not been advised'to recommend 
 to this House an estimate of such a sum 
 Of money as would be a proper and just 
 recognition of the services of those civil 
 servante and officials whose further duties 
 are dispensed with In view of the policy 
 adopted by the Government. 
 
41 
 
 nt to muni* 
 ints auch as 
 I like we in- 
 the munici- 
 hQ averaKe 
 B facts do 
 itoba of the 
 ment then, 
 convince, 
 ave 
 
 ' ua 
 
 eeseparinff 
 bunate per- 
 til service. 
 re advocat- 
 paid what 
 y ordinary 
 lis is the 
 ice, and so 
 le best has 
 
 that I be- 
 biU further 
 
 of civil 
 tdown ex- 
 tuight this 
 )y the con- 
 of our de- 
 ;hly famil- 
 cautiously 
 aderstood, 
 9rs them- 
 y they get 
 rk of their 
 
 to power 
 
 ng them- 
 pervision. 
 it besides 
 devolved 
 tave done 
 c of their 
 attend- 
 ministers, 
 abolishing 
 rs and In 
 11 ask the 
 he second 
 ith these 
 Ice of rau- 
 uties will 
 of public 
 t of the 
 pposltion 
 rae where 
 the elect- 
 it verdict 
 [ias never 
 
 Souse re- 
 
 ;ommend 
 ich a sum 
 'and just 
 liose civil 
 ler duties 
 he policy 
 
 v^h:JhS^hL"^°^^ his Intention of 
 voting for the amendment. He said he 
 
 hTCw-li*^^^™' of what thlTovw 
 Srt^fKirK®^*.?*''^ occasion, however, to 
 add that, had it not been for the reckloM 
 
 ment^iK*T£«^''« of'ffi'cJvSS: 
 Sf^f. *i,'^°^*''* '*»? *»on- gentleman was 
 i«*<^e''. there would have been none^- 
 n\%'°' tWs question to have arisen. The 
 mln'^'h'***^ ^° •o*^«d wlththiJl 
 men, where only one was required- at the 
 f am* time, he laid the whole responsibll! 
 Ity for this condition of thingTKthe 
 meLTof aT.rT*'* byThe"Cem! 
 ^fri«r.fi^^**«''.,*"® '*°°- gentleman was 
 leader; the civil servants should not be 
 punished for the shortcomines of thel? 
 masters, who had given them iwsItioiS 
 
 '®*\ order of things it had been noMlble 
 ^r^vS^^^^'^'?^ numCKivil 
 
 ^^K'J'*' V^f® ^** ^° '^ason why the 
 KwXluffer/""''^^^'*'" ^'^"'^'''^ •'• 
 
 The amendment was lost, the vote be- 
 
 ?!«««'?' Torquay. LaRiviere, Robinson 
 r i&^®'i ^S??«*' Dougli, aSn 
 Gillies jMjd Drewry-ll; AgainstTHon 
 Messrs. PrendeiKast, Milrtin, Greinwav 
 ?o'Sr^"S-** Jones: Messrs. F^nc^ Cww' 
 
 &u4f ShH?*W^°r«',W¥°' Martin, 
 irtiiey, Boblin, Macdonell, McLean. R. S 
 
 BrowK.®- ^' Thompson. sSdih and 
 
 u^'a ^°r<l"ay ,then moved another 
 i^H«?"*"\*«*»°'*«'* by Dr. Harrison! 
 In doing so he reviewed Oie difflcu^S 
 
 ?ad teSS!f *^"/iy ^"^ ^^ Gove^^t 
 Tk fc.'^"°" the way of raisina 
 the funds, necessary funds for c«nStai 
 
 rSlH«®.^P^^2'*&*^''°'^<^. which difla- 
 m«i*^'K*'*??*'*' ^'^ practlcaUy been re 
 S12Ji^«'*L*^® changes that had uSen 
 ^h^J^JS^^,^^^ adopted at Ottawa. 
 Lv hSl^*'^ Treasiurer, he proceedidto 
 t^fA h^ 1° t ^S'y exhaustive statement, 
 SSilhe Sh'^imS'* °««othited successfully 
 S-»S^®**" of Mwch, a loan by which the 
 debentures of the Province tad been «• 
 
 l^Tt!ft'^U^^^''F^§h he consid^d ft 
 fhZi^ *°? equltaBle transaction, under 
 the circumstances in which hon. Wtle- 
 
 t?^ aK^.^*""*'/*'' with the pKc: 
 tive abrogation of monopoly, of which 
 
 Ho^f*^"**A^«^ intimationbytke l^wS 
 ^ ^^ ^^"^ from the Federal GovetmnSJt 
 ^^^f^^"^.*^^ <^^»» this veryim- 
 ffy»^4'''i2'****^*"* ^"h the secuJities 
 of the Province known to realise as high 
 as 110, he found it inexplicable why afn. 
 tlemen 8hquld_place the provinciajLC. 
 Si'^u**^ ^"^x ^* ^^«i "ot want to go back 
 wo„h^ statement Ust autumn thathe 
 E^li'i*=^"*"y >^« accepted 94 rather 
 than &11 of constructing the R. R. V R • 
 
 o?\ho *^^® consldererthe circumstaiiS^ 
 of., the ProvinoB then, the difficulties 
 which surrounded the enterprise, the an^ 
 
 tagoniam of the Federal authorities, and 
 the antagonism of the most powerful cor- 
 porationln British North America fight- 
 SSpHntKir®'^ step and renderinglm- 
 practicable any negotiations that were 
 being entered Into-whon all these mat- 
 «il^ 7i^^ '*'?®?, ^'^to consideration, and 
 
 fefhtu?i?^y?e« °' P*P«" Intimate 
 with the state of the money market in the 
 
 financial centre of this cSntlnent, was it 
 any wonder that he should have stated 
 tnat, Lad he secured, under the circum- 
 stances even 94, rather than see the Prov- 
 ince a month longer in securing railway 
 competition, he would have aiked the 
 House to accept that figure. He believed 
 the House was entitled to fuller explana- 
 tionsastowhy the bonds had been dls- 
 E'^h?! '^''^°?* inviting competition 
 from those accustomed to deal with such 
 matters, either in this Proving, o?S 
 other provinces of the Dominion, ke did 
 vfl'*^*^' the bargain for 103 was a 
 twl §Q bargain; (Hear, hearl) but at the 
 time 22 vear bonds were worth 110. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Jones asked what was the 
 authority for that quotation. 
 
 m5i''j..^i?"'"*y. answered that financial 
 men In the province stated so, and that 
 35£ear bonds wonld have l^n worth 
 
 Hon. Ml. Jones stated that the bargain 
 so far as the Province was concerned, had 
 
 fe^*^,? °° ^« ^b of February! oStn 
 for three days to acceptance. 
 
 Mr. Norquay went on to say that iff 22 
 year bonds were now quoted at 112. 5nd 
 In January at 108, thellouse might rea- 
 soMbly expect a smaUer commission than 
 6 percent on 81.500,000 could have ^n 
 agreed upon. He was not, himbelf. par- 
 tEulariy famlUar with Vnandal 
 
 hSt^nirakSSSS?''??^ the difference 
 oecween i(H and 108. He moved the fol- 
 lowing moUon: Whereas, according to 
 a»e statement of the rfonVPro^ncial 
 Treasurer to the budget speech o^Priday 
 
 J^^J^3°^A^^ informed that an a/ 
 rangement had been entered Into and 
 agreed ugwn between the Govemmentand 
 ^8ere.6rummond Bros. & Moffat7 bro- 
 P"' to purchase the bonds of theProv- 
 Ih2®i5l34 "J^ whereas the Honorable 
 the ^vlnclal Treasurer has not shown to 
 this House that he invited tenders fJTtlS 
 purchase of thesaid bonds, whicharenow 
 «»o«Mng to the statement of toe Mid 
 
 ShT^cS.**' ?"*«'???»'• ^"ot*^ at 112; and 
 whereas, In the opinion of this 
 
 House, a more satisfactory explanation 
 than has^been given should be made to 
 ««?% ^ttS action of the Government in 
 not foUowIng, under the ciroumstances 
 .^t^K"^5a»!?«u^9P««4 hy government 
 
 iwution from thcwe dealing in such ma^ 
 ters therefore be it resolved that the 
 motion of the Hon, the Provincial Ti^- 
 surer, be not concurred In until an expla- 
 nation sfttisfwtory to this House be mkde 
 in reference thereto. «'«»"o 
 
 Hon. Mr. Greenway denied the correct- 
 
42 
 
 ness of the statement that, when the loan 
 was negotiated, there was a prospect of 
 monopoly being done away with, or that 
 the Government had received intimation 
 of such beine the case. The transactioti, 
 so far as the Province was concerned, was 
 closed on the 29th of February. 
 
 Dr. Harrison— There were no bonds to 
 sell. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Greenway— Hon. gentleman 
 opposite could not get the money when 
 they went east with their pockets full of 
 bonds; but the present Government had 
 now to their credit $53,000 in the bank, 
 and they had not issued a bond yet. The 
 transaction was closed so far as the Pro- 
 vince was concerned, on the 20th 
 of February; and the first inti- 
 mation the Crovernment received from 
 Ottawa was when a telegram came to him 
 the next day, about fifteen minutes before 
 the House assembled, asking that taey 
 should go down to Ottawa on that mis- 
 sion. The bonds did sell better on the 3rd 
 of March. The Government had not 
 chosen, as his hon. friend had sometimes 
 chosen, to break a contract under the seal 
 of the Province. On the 13th of one month 
 the hon. gentleman entered into an ar- 
 rivngement with a certain company to 
 hand over the R. R. V. R., 
 and on the 23rd of the same 
 month he did precisely the same thing 
 with another company. On the Govern- 
 ment side, when gentlemen enter into an 
 agreement with a financial firm, or any 
 other corporation they proposed to carry ft 
 out. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Jones said that when the pre- 
 sent loan was placed upon the market the 
 financial men of London had had promin- 
 ently before them tlAe fact of the 
 dangers of disallowance; notwithstand- 
 ing this, there was a wide differ- 
 ence t>etween the purchase price 
 of these bonds, and the offer the hon. gen- 
 tleman accepted last year. At the time 
 he made the sale /ant year, on the 16th 
 June, the quotation <a Manitoba 5 per 
 cents on the London market was 109,111, 
 averaate 110 on the Hth and Idthofthat 
 month— he was quoting from the Lopdan 
 Economist of those dates. The quota- 
 tions at the time of the recent loan were 
 107109, average 108, making a difference 
 of 2 per cent, between the 16th June 
 last, and the 29th of February ; 
 yet on the former date the hon. gentle- 
 men sold for 102i and he (Hon. Mr. Jones) 
 on the latter date for 103. In addition, 
 the latter loan was for net, sterling, ?4.87i 
 equal to 9^ discount. The London 
 firm consented to send the money or allow 
 the Provincial Treasurer draw; and he 
 found that by drawing he could save sev- 
 eral hundred dollars. The price was 
 higher than that for the Quebec loan, and 
 the amount received was, under the cir- 
 cumstances, a very high rate for the 
 bonds. 
 
 Dr. Harrison charged the members of 
 the government with drawing a herring 
 
 across the trail; as It was no matter what 
 took place last year or the year before, 35- 
 year bonds were worth 3 per cent, more 
 than 22-year bonds. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Jones— How many years were 
 the bonds to run that the hon. gentleman 
 sold last year at 102^. 
 
 Dr. Harrison replied that he was not 
 Provincial Tresurer at that time. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Jones answered the question 
 himself, stating that they were to run 40 
 years. 
 
 Dr. Harrison went on to say that the in- 
 terest of the Province had been sacrificed 
 to the extent of not less than $100,000 
 (Hon. Mr. Jones pointed out that the 
 amount was going up, it having been $75,- 
 000 shortly before) squandered by the in- 
 capacity of the Provincial Treasurer, not- 
 withstanding the high estimate 
 he placed upon himself. When 
 the bonds were worth 107 or 108 
 he had sold at 103; 3S year bonds were 
 worth 3 per cent, more than 22 year bonds, 
 besides accumulated interest for two 
 months was to be considered. On the 3rd 
 of March the bonds were worth 110; and 
 the same w&te worth very much more in 
 June; yet in the face of tnlBtthe Provin- 
 cial Treasurer sold at 103. What had be- 
 come of the 5^ or 6^ per cent? Was it in 
 the hands of the commission men, the 
 Provincial Treasurer, Mr. Alloway, or 
 someone else. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Jones said the member for 
 West Minnedosa was the only man he 
 had refused to tell where this money 
 was. 
 
 Mr. Luxton said that when the trans- 
 action in connection with the bonds was 
 criticized, not being himself a financier, 
 he had made enquiries amongst parties 
 that he thought were competent to give 
 an opinion on this point, including the 
 honorable member for Russell whom he 
 considered one of the best authorities; 
 and he had received but one opinion from 
 all; that, assuming the bonds were put on 
 the market, the price, 103 net in Winni- 
 peg, was very fair one indeed. The mem- 
 ber for Russell would correct him if he 
 were in error. He understood that 
 the expenses of brokerage, English 
 stamp duty, and transmission two 
 ways the bonds from Winnipeg to 
 London and the money London to 
 Winnipeg— because the House would re- 
 member that the exchange was made in 
 Winnipeg^amounted to usually 2or2i 
 per cent. The purchasers, Sir Robert Car- 
 dlns & Co. and their syndicate, paid 103 
 net at Winnipe- they put them on the 
 market at lU/, a difference of 4 
 per cent. Now, subtracting the 
 expenses. 2 or 2| per tjent. front this left 
 the purchasers a gain of about two per 
 cent, certainly a small profit for capitalists 
 who took the risk of failure to sell and all 
 the chances of a heavy loss. He under- 
 stood that men who had one and a half 
 million dollars at command usually count- 
 ed on much larger profits. But in this 
 
43 
 
 latter what 
 before, 35- 
 :ent. more 
 
 years were 
 gentleman 
 
 9 was not 
 le. 
 
 e question 
 to run 40 
 
 that the In- 
 a sacrificed 
 an $100,000 
 ; that the 
 5 been $75,- 
 
 by the in- 
 surer, not- 
 estimate 
 When 
 07 or 108 
 [>nds were 
 I'ear bonds, 
 it for two 
 On the 3rd 
 
 110; and 
 h more in 
 lie Provin- 
 at had be- 
 ;Va8 it in 
 
 men, the 
 iloway, or 
 
 ember for 
 Y man he 
 bis money 
 
 the trans- 
 bonds was 
 financier, 
 gst parties 
 nt to give 
 luding the 
 whom he 
 authorities; 
 linion from 
 rere put on 
 in Winni- 
 The mem- 
 him if he 
 itood that 
 , English 
 jslon two 
 innipeg to 
 jondoB to 
 would re- 
 as made in 
 illy 2or2i 
 Robert Car- 
 e, paid 103 
 em on the 
 ice of 4 
 ting the 
 rn this left 
 it two per 
 ' capitalists 
 sell and all 
 He under- 
 nd a half 
 lally count- 
 iut in this 
 
 case there were still other circumstances. 
 When this nes;otiation took place 
 on 29th February the policy of 
 disallowance seemed as iirm and 
 threateniuK as ever and if the Govern- 
 ment had sold the bonds at a much lower 
 rate they would have been justified. Con- 
 sidering how sensitive the great money 
 markets are and how ctu«f ul great finan- 
 cial men are he thought Sir Robert Car- 
 dins Sc Co. had certainly made but a 
 small margin of profit and that even 
 casting aside altogether all danger of dis- 
 allowance the Province had made an ex- 
 cellent bargain. 
 
 Mr. Leacock replied that the statement 
 was perfectly true. If he himself had 
 been a minister of the Crown on the 29th of 
 February, and that ofi^sr had been mode 
 to him, with definite guarantees that it 
 would be properly carriedout, he felt he 
 would not have taken the responsibility of 
 refusing; and under the circumstances he 
 did not think the Government would have 
 been justified in refusing. The question 
 was simply for explanation as to diftereut 
 dates, etc. He thought the statement of 
 
 the Provincial Treasurer as to his having 
 several hundred dollars in the exchange 
 a serious charge against the business 
 shrewdness of Drummond Bros. & Mofiat, 
 whom he had regarded as the sharpest 
 men in Winnipeg; and his hon. friend was 
 to be complimented on having got ahead 
 of such shrewd gentlemen. No doubt Mr. 
 C. S. Drummond when he heard of it 
 would be furious. 
 
 The amendment was lost on the follow- 
 ing division: For, Messrs. Harrison, Xor- 
 quay, LaRiviere, Robinson, Alexander, 
 Douglas and Gillies— 7; against, Hon, 
 Messrs. Prendergast, Martin, Green- 
 way, Smart and Jones, Messrs. 
 Francis, Crawford, McKenzie, Lux- 
 ton. Young, Jackson. Martin, Gelley, 
 Roblin, Macdonell, McLean, R. S. Thomp- 
 son, S. J. Thompson, Smith and Leacock 
 
 Mr. Leacock explained his vote, stating 
 that he thought it right and most neces- 
 sary to get explanations, as asked for by 
 the motion. 
 
 The House adjourned at six o'clock. 
 
 Proposal to Abandon the R. R. V. R. 
 
 Thursday evg's session was a very inter- 
 esting and important one, the subject of 
 most of the debate being Lord Van Home 
 and his attempt to bulldoze the Local 
 Government. Upon the House meeting 
 Mr. Greenway laid upon the table of the 
 House the report of the correaponden' e 
 between the Government and the C.P.K. 
 authorities re the leasing of the Emerson 
 branch. 
 
 Mr. DouAlas, in amendment to the mo- 
 tion to go into ways and means, moved:— 
 
 "That Mr. Speaker do not now leave the 
 chair, but that it be resolved, That where- 
 as, the C. P. R. Co. having been given 
 power by the Dominion Parliament to 
 lease or sell or abahdon the Emerson 
 branch of the C. P. R. as one of the con- 
 siderations for relinquishing their mono- 
 poly rights in the* added territory of Mani- 
 toba and in the Northwest; and whereas 
 the C. P. R. Company having intin^ '^«xl 
 that in case of the construction of tht . 
 R. V. R. it would not par them to operate 
 the said Emerson branch ; 
 
 And whereas the abandonment of the 
 said Emerson branch of the C. P.R. would 
 be a great injustice and hardship to the 
 laiige population settled east of Red river, 
 which settlement was induced almost 
 wholly by reason of the transportation 
 fallcitles afforded by the Emerson branch, 
 and the good markets existing a". Emer- 
 son, Dominion city, Otterbourne, Niver- 
 
 transDortation facilities; 
 
 And whereas the C. P. R. having oiTer- 
 ed to lease or sell the said Emerson branch 
 to the Provincial Grovernment, anu hav- 
 ing, according to the statement of its gen- 
 eral mani^rs "lately repeated this 
 offer, in J 'eating at the same time 
 
 a disposition to go asfar as possible to- 
 wards meeting the views of the Govern- 
 ment as to the rental. 
 . And whereas the settlers upbn the east 
 side of the Red River being already ac- 
 commodated with a railway nne that is 
 not likely to be abandoned; 
 
 And whereas there being every proba- 
 bility that the Northern Pacific Railway, 
 now having a railway to the boundary, or 
 some other company, would be willing to 
 take the grade and materials of the R. R. 
 V. R. off the hsmdsof the Governmentand 
 complete the road; 
 
 Ann whereas the leasing in perpetuity 
 of the Emerson branch by the Provincial 
 Government would furnish to the Prov- 
 ince the competition in railway rates 
 which the construction of the R.R.V.R. is 
 designed to give, and which can now be 
 the only reason for the construction of the 
 said line by the Government, a cessation 
 of the disallowance policy having been 
 promised by the Federal Government; 
 
 And whereas, throu;;h the Emerson 
 branch connection can easily be had at the 
 boundary with all American roads com- 
 ing northward upon either side of the Red 
 river, there being at Emerson a magnifi- 
 cent iron railway bridge over the Red 
 riVer which can be leased at a nominal 
 rate. 
 
 ^ Therefore^ be it resolved, that although 
 tbiu HguoC nas concurred in the item of 
 $1,200,000 for railway construction it is the 
 opinion of this House that a certain por- 
 tion oi this sum should be used to secure 
 the rental of the said Emerson branch of 
 the C.P.R. if the same can be secured at a 
 reasonable figure and that the balance be 
 applied to securing railway facilities to 
 
44 
 
 such portiona of the province as are not 
 now applied. 
 
 He made a long speech, pointing out 
 why in his opinion this should bn done. 
 He was afraid the O.P.R. would carry out 
 their threat of abandoning the Emerson 
 branch if the Grovemment did not take it 
 over. This would destroy the markets at 
 Otterboume, Dominion Citv, Niverville 
 and other points; ha thought the Govern- 
 ment should lease it and perhaps the 
 NOTthem Pacihc railway would lease the 
 K.R.V.R, 
 
 Mr. Greenway made a very vigorous 
 speech. Me mentioned the fact of the 
 similarity of language in motions made 
 by Mr. Douglas and Mr. Kirchhoffer and 
 letters written by Van Home to the Local 
 Government as an indication that he was 
 keeping them fullv posted on what was 
 going on. It looked as though the mem- 
 bers of the Opposition had entered into a 
 conspiracy with the C.P. R. to try to force 
 the Government to abandon the R.R.V.R. 
 and substitute therefor the Emerson 
 branch. They had solemnly pledged 
 themselves to build the road at the earli- 
 est possible moment and they were going 
 to do it. It was to be built because It 
 was in the interests of this country that 
 j^ere should be railway competition. 
 The Government did not want to quarrel 
 with the C. P. R..who had a large amount 
 of property in Manitoba and wonld be 
 benefitted as much as anyone 
 by the development of the 
 Province. If any one had any 
 doubt as to the intentions of the Gov- 
 ernment to conecruot the road let them 
 read the letter he had that day sent to 
 Mr. Van. Home. Arrangements had been 
 made with Mr. Oakes, of the Northern 
 Pacific, by which, as soon as the road is 
 completed, he will afford every facility, 
 and would even put on a limited express 
 running all the way to Montreal. The 
 early completion of the road was in the 
 interests of this city, in the interests of 
 Manitoba. The reason why theC. P. R. 
 so Utterly opposed the completion of the 
 R. R. V. R. was because they knew that 
 the moment the Northern Pacific could 
 run into this city they would have to drop 
 their rates: and then the merchants would 
 be given the benefit of competing rates 
 from eastern points, anC -Ae farmers the 
 advantage of competing rates to Duluth. 
 The farmers in the past have paid 10c per 
 bushel more than they should have for the 
 transportation of their wheat to the sea- 
 board; and if the government could effect 
 this saving this year on 12,000,000 bushels 
 of wheat it would be considerably in ex- 
 cess of what they would expend in build- 
 ing theroad. The only offer evermiMiA 
 the government by the C.P.R. re the Em- 
 erson branch was 91,000,000 or 960,000 a 
 year. That line when built by the Gov- 
 ernment, only cost as per the public ac- 
 counts some 9800,000; and were thev after 
 all these years going to pay 91,000,000 of 
 for this w" 
 
 the people's money for this when they 
 
 rould build a road in a much better posi- 
 tion for less money. The Government 
 have no intention of doing anything like 
 tjiat. (Applause). By way of threat the 
 C,**.!*. baa practically announced that un- 
 less the Government bought the Emerson 
 bmtch the company would not extend 
 their branches, even although the 
 Government had offered them a 
 subsidypracticany sufficient to build the 
 line. When the C. P. R. undertake to 
 coerce the Government to their view of 
 thinking, he could tell them, and the peo- 
 ple of this country, that they cannot do it. 
 (Loud applause.) They might as well un- 
 derstand the Government's position. They 
 were going to build that road. The G. P. 
 R. appeared to think they had only to 
 dictate to the Government and it would 
 yield. He desired that there should be no 
 mistuderstanding on that point, and 
 he had written a letter to Mr. 
 van Uome that it was no use usmgthreats 
 against this Government. (Applause.) 
 The lines to tl boundary and to Portage 
 la Prairie would be valuable assets. It 
 was arrant nonsense to Say that these 
 roads would destroy the parallel 0. P. R. 
 lines; he believed the more lines there 
 were, the more business there would be 
 for each railway, and the country would 
 become more prosperous. In conclusion 
 he again reitered amidst tremendous ap- 
 plaufle, In which the gaUerles joined In, 
 that despite the threats o 1 the C. P. R. 
 and the efforts of their representative on 
 floor of the House the people of IJils conn- 
 trv would be OAjoylng railway competi- 
 tion before the snow files. 
 
 Mr. A. F. Martin was not surprised at 
 seeing the member for Emerson represent- 
 ing the Canadian Pacific. If theR.R.V.R. 
 is abandoned no connection will be made 
 this year with the Northern Pacific. All 
 the C.P.R. wanted was another year of 
 ™??^P?,*7* ^^*^ bridge at Emerson of 
 wMch Mr. Douglas had spoken so much 
 was not owned by the town for 
 EmeSBon was practically in the hands of 
 bailiff. That bridge could be sold to-mor- 
 row, and the C. P. R. in order to preserve 
 that monopoly would buy in the bridge 
 and connection could not be made tSs 
 year, and the C. P. R. would get the ad- 
 ^tage of another year of excessive rates. 
 He claimed that the country from Morris 
 to West Lynne required railway facilities. 
 He did not beheve Mr. Douglas* complaint 
 about the C. P. R. abandoning the Emer- 
 son branch. It would be continued if 
 necessary by the St. P., M. & M. 
 
 Mr. A. F. Martin,8econded by S.J. Jack- 
 son, moved in amendment to the amend- 
 ment: 
 
 That all the worda after "Thai-." ir- t*-e 
 first line of the said amendment be struck 
 out, and the following substituted there- 
 for: 
 
 Whereas it appears from the corre- 
 spondence laid on the table, and espec- 
 ially that portion which states "If theR. 
 R. V. B. Is to be built, and the Smersott 
 
 I V 
 
45 
 
 f 
 
 branch left on our hands notwithstanding 
 our offer, it will be uselass to discuss fu- 
 ture railivay building or prolonff this cor- 
 respondence. If Mr. Greenway's decision 
 as to the Emerson branch is final we would 
 like his permission to publish this corres- 
 pondence in order that the responsibility 
 may be placed where it belongs." That 
 the C.P.K. is bringing influence to bear on 
 the Government to abandon the completion 
 of the B.B.V.R., and whereas a good deal 
 of money has Blready been expended in the 
 constructionof that enterprise,and whereas 
 it is necessary in the interests of the country 
 that an independent line should be run to 
 the boundary. This House resents the 
 threats of the C. P. B., and even if it had 
 been possible to have arrived at a satisfac- 
 tory arrangement for the taking over of 
 the Emerson branch, the attitude of Mr. 
 Van Home, representing the C. P. B., has 
 placed it beyond the power of this House 
 to entertain auy further offers or corres- 
 pondence and it is in the interests of the 
 country that the construction of the B. B. 
 V. B. be proceeded with with all possible 
 speed. 
 
 Mr. J. M. Bobinson, who seconded Mr. 
 Douglas' motion, spoke in lAuch the same 
 strain as Mr. Douglas. 
 
 Dr. Harrison seemed to object to Pre- 
 mier Oreenway's statement that the oppo- 
 siticm were in league with Van Home. 
 He thought foul epithets shouldn't be 
 thrown at the high-minded palariots sit- 
 ting to the left of the Speaker. He 
 wouldn't commit the Govemment to a 
 hard And fast line; but if they could get a 
 lease of one of the C. P. B. lines 
 in perpetuitv at a low figure 
 they should do it. He would support 
 extensions; he thought this might be ac- 
 complisaed if thegovemment would meet 
 the views of the CTP.B. re. the Emerson 
 branch. 
 
 Mr. Drewry said that he had always 
 been for the Bed Biver Valley, first, last 
 and all time. He believed the B. B. v. B. 
 should be built, and when the R«mier 
 sent out his invitations next fall to per- 
 8:>nstotake the opening trip over this 
 road be hoped he would invite him even 
 though he wasn't a member of the 
 House. Mr. Drewry was given vigorous 
 applause when he sat down. 
 
 Mr. Luxton went into a calculation to 
 show that even if the Emerson branch 
 could be secured for 925,000 per year as 
 Dr. Harrison had indicated, it would pay 
 thecountry better to complete the B.R.V. 
 R. A sum of 9150,000 had been 
 spent in securing the grade for that 
 road, and this would be a total loss 
 if it was abandoned. The B. B. V. B. was 
 estimated to cost $7^,000; taking off the 
 
 ! 1140.000 for rolling stock and the9150,000 
 or constructing the grade would leave 
 $400,000 which it would cost to put the R. 
 B. V. B. in iust suck a position as the Em- 
 erson branch would be handed over in. 
 This amount at 6 per cent interest is S24.- 
 500, a less sum than the figure at which it 
 
 was stated the Emerson branch could be 
 leased. He went on to point out 
 that the C.P.B. were bound by statute to 
 complete their branches under penalty of 
 losing their land grant; and in saying prac- 
 tically that he would not build them Mr. 
 Van Home was repudiating an agreement 
 made with the people oi Canada. The 
 terms of settlement with the C.P.R were 
 very satisfactory, but they should contain 
 a clause iniJsting upon the immediate ex- 
 tension of their branch lines. 
 
 M r. Leacock said he wouldvote against 
 Mr. Douglas' resolution. The correspon- 
 dence from Mr. Van Home to the Govem- 
 ment which had been brought down was 
 a repetition of the insulting telegrara sent 
 to the Legislature last ^ear by Sr George 
 Stephen which he had at the time de- 
 nounced. (Loud applause from the Grov- 
 emment benches.) It was not due to the 
 dignity of the Crown, the L^slature or 
 the country that Mr. Van Home should 
 be permitted to try and coerce theGrovem- 
 ment by threats and insinuations. 
 
 Mr. Alexander referred in rather sarcas- 
 tic language to Mr. Leacock's speech. He 
 said that gentleman had a most extraor- 
 dinary manner of flying off at a tangent 
 and he had done so on this occasion. 
 
 Mr. Norquay said that last year the G. 
 P. R. were apparently anxious that the 
 requirements of this country should be 
 met by leasing to the Province as an inde- 
 
 Eendent outlet part of their system. They 
 ad made an offer of that nature to the 
 late Govemment, but the Federal author- 
 ities disapproved of the plan. He denied 
 that there was anything but a great 
 desire to secure competition among 
 the members of the Opposition. 
 He intimated that friends in 
 Ottawa (Mr. Daly et al), had notified the 
 Opposition that negotiations were going 
 on between the Local Crovemment and the 
 C.P.B. and they had then moved for the 
 returns. He had been led to believe that 
 very advantageous offers had been made 
 to Local Grovemment to lease the Emersan 
 branch. After examining the correspon- 
 dence he took the same view of the matter 
 that Mr. Leacock did. The company 
 had tried to dictate to the Province 
 and whatever difference there might be 
 among themselves it was the duty of every 
 Manltoban to resent their action. If the 
 G. P. B. were able to find capital for east- 
 ern lines they could do it for tiheir exten- 
 sions here, and if they think they can, by 
 means of dissensions here, set one party 
 against another, in a matter of this kind, 
 he wanted to show them they were mis- 
 taken. Although opposed to the pres- 
 ent administration he could not as 
 a member of the house approve 
 of any attempt to coerce and intimidate 
 the Govemment of this Province as the 
 Canadian Pacific had attempted to intimi- 
 date them. His remarks were received 
 with loud applause by the MinisteriaUsts. 
 Mr. Douglas then crawled into his hole 
 and drew the hole in after him. He ex- 
 
46 
 
 plained that the anbmlsdon of thecorree* 
 pondenoe had changed th« whole cnnent 
 of the dlscoasion. He knew nothhiR 
 of the correspondence when he drew 
 his resolution; but under the circum- 
 stances he agreed with the other 
 meoibors that the C. P. B. having 
 tried to Intimidate the CrOTemment, the 
 House should back them up. Aooordlng' 
 ly be would either withdraw his motion 
 or he would support the amendment. 
 The friends on the other side b^an to 
 taunt him with backing down, but he said 
 he had not done so. He acDordlngly asked 
 to be allowed to withdraw his motion. 
 
 Mr. J. M.Boblnson made a few expla- 
 nations about his sharp turn. He too fol- 
 lowed the track ot the othersanddenounc- 
 ed the C. P. R. Their threats peremptori- 
 ly shut off all jposslbillty of the province 
 leaslncc the Emerson line. After the 
 threat the (rovemment could only drop 
 all negotiations. 
 
 Mr. Alexander also rose to make expla- 
 nations. He said he had only supported 
 Douslas' motion because he tnougnt were 
 it adopted It would lead to the extension 
 of the branches. Although he had spent 
 half an hour in reading the correspond- 
 ence he dldn'tnotlce the threats contained 
 ln|lt, but under the circumstances he would 
 support the amendment. 
 
 fiur. Oreenway said It was flattering to 
 see that the members of the Opposition 
 had seen the errors of their ways and 
 
 going to give the Government a 
 unanimous support. 
 
 Mr. Leacock said the more he looked at 
 the matter the more the correspondence 
 . '^emed to be contempt and Insolence to 
 this House; and if Mr. Van Home were 
 within the Jurisdiction of the House he 
 would move that he be brought before the 
 bar at the House to explain his actions 
 and words. 
 
 Mr. C.P.B. Brown made^a few timid 
 remarks. He suggested that that the 
 whole matter be allowed to drop in order 
 to leave the government free to take any 
 action they pleased in the matter; and 
 immediately afterwards made a break for 
 the door to escape votlAg in the division. 
 
 Mr. Douglas wanted to withdraw his 
 motion, but that was not allowed: then he 
 wanted to add something to Itv but that 
 was also refused. Thereupon he announc- 
 ed that he would support his motion, and 
 a division was taken with the following 
 result: 
 
 Ayes—Hon. Messrs. Prendergast, Mar- 
 tin, Qreenway, Smart, Jones, Norquay, 
 LalUviere and Harrison: Messrs. Francis, 
 Crawford, MbKenzie, Luxton, Yoving, 
 Jackson, Martin, Grelley. Boblln, Macdon- 
 ell, McLean, Thompson (C^ypress), Thomp- 
 son (Norfolk), Smlui, Robinson, Alexan- 
 der, Leacock, Marion, Ollllea and Drew- 
 ry— 28. 
 
 Nays— Mr. Douglas— 1. 
 
 I 
 
 4 ^ 
 
 \ 
 
 « 1 r 
 
THE MORAL. 
 
 The moral is suggested by the 
 ''Commercial, ''of May 24th, a non- 
 partizan and non-political journal 
 in these words : 
 
 ''As matters stand there can be no doubt 
 about the result of the coming election; and 
 indeed it is difficult to se e how a man true to 
 Mamtoba can, under present circumstan ces, do 
 otherwise than suppor t the party now in power!'