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 23 THCB 
 
 Cre JIT Valley Railway 
 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 APPTJOATLO:S'. 
 
 
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 ^^^^^^B^ w 
 
 FOR RIGHT OF WAY AND CRdSsiNGS 
 
 
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 ^^^^^^^^H ' j^ ' 
 
 pEFOf^E THE I^AiLWAY .€0|VI|Vin TEE OF THE ^RIVY fJoUNCIL. 
 
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 1 
 
 Ottawa, Thursday, June 19th, 1879. 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 R35POIKPHD BY 
 
 A., Sc CS-EO. O. HOXiL^lsTX), 
 
 1 
 
 H 
 
 SENATE REPORTERS. 
 
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 XlfaflMBWP!lBCTajtfjR'-;ra:"t''' '^^^^^^^^^^^^^K ' 
 
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 OTTAWA : 
 
 VKINTEt) fiT C. W. MITOHBil-, " FHEE JPJBKSS " OFJFICB, ELGIN STREET. 
 
 . ,■.-•^-1879. . - 
 
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 aii-^ 
 
 Credit Valley Railway 
 
 APPLICATIOISr, 
 
 FOR RIGHT OF WAY AND CROSSINGS 
 
 
 AT THE 
 
 CIT"3r OF TOR^OIsTTO. 
 
 pEpOI^E THE l^AILWAY JiiJof/llVlITTEE OF THE pRIVY iloUNCIL. 
 
 Ottawa, Thursday, June 19th, 1879. 
 
 REPORTED BY 
 
 JL. &o O-EO. O. HIOIjL^lsrr), 
 
 SENATE REPORTERS, 
 
 OTTAWA. 
 
 OTTAWA : 
 
 rilNTKM BY ('. W. >riTCHELL, "FREE PRES ! " OFFICE, ELGIN STREET. 
 
 1879. 
 
1 
 
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 Fergus* 
 
 
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 Robert 
 
 
 tendeni 
 
 
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RAILWAY DELEGATION. 
 
 The Credit Valley Railway Application berore the 
 Railway Committee of the Privy Council. 
 
 iDttawa, IChursbay, 3une 19th. 
 
 The application of the Credit Valley Railway Co. for i iij;ht of way over the Ordnan<e 
 Ijand into the City of Toronto, and for crossing other lines was heard before the Railway 
 Committee of the Privy Council, to-day in the office of the Minister of Public Works. 
 
 The following representatives of the various interests concerned were present : — 
 
 Toronto Ci rv — Mayor Beaty and F. Shanly, City Engineer. 
 
 ToBOKTO Board of Trade and Corn Exchange— Pv. W. Klliott, Mr. 
 Ferguson, Q. C. • 
 
 C. V. R Co.— Hon. R. M. Wells,Hon. \7m. MaodougaU,M.P., J. E. Macdougall, 
 Robert Hay, M. P., W. D. Mathews, Mr. Bailey, Chief Engineer ; Mr. Ross, buperin 
 tendent of Construction. 
 
 a. T. R. Co.— E. P. Hanuaford, W. Cassels. 
 
 N. R. Co. — F. W. Cumberland, D'Arcy Boulton, Hector Cameroi, M. P. 
 
i 
 
 a. \V. I{. ( o. Joaej>h HoI.m.ii, ( '. Stirl. 
 
 T. (i. A- r.. I't. Co." Mr. \Via^%'f. W. II. linUt.v, N. Di.k.-^ 
 
 The tollowuig laenibcrs of tli»' l*ri\y C'uuiiril were j»ri\st!nt : - 
 
 Sir'.loliii A. Mucdoniild, Sir CIliiUs TiipixT. Hon. Mr. .\ikius. an.l II. »m, .1. H. 
 I'ope, Minister of Agiieultiue. 
 
 Sir CHAT^LES TUPI'ER- I sii).|m..s«jJ tlic Crf.lit ViilL-y fJailway Co. ^\iIl atato 
 I heir case tir.nt. 
 
 Mr. C.VSSELS— The Credit A'alley K.iilv.iiy Cominmy hnvc <(ot as far as Qiipeii 
 .street with their track. What they have applied to the Railway Commiltee for is to bo 
 allowed to intersect the Giand Trunk Railway, the Northern llailway and, I think, the 
 Toronto, Grey and Bruce and Great We.stern Railways, east of Queen street. They 
 make the ajiplication under the Railway Act. which requires the sanction of the Railway 
 <?oainiittco of the Rr.vy Council in ease the Companies cannot ajjree upon the point of 
 intersection, but I assume that the representatives of the Credit Valley Railway do not 
 intend to argue that question when they are not within half a mile of the point of inter 
 section, ami when that point cannot be known. I'ntil they construct their road to the 
 crossing place, -liiey cannot discuss tlie (piestion luire. 
 
 \ 
 Hon. R. M. WELLS— I think it would bo cpiite convenient that we should fii-st 
 take up the question, as to the discretion of the Crown, to grant right of way from 
 <.^ueen Street down to Brack Street. 
 
 • 
 
 "Mr CA^fKRON— Questions of law are involved in that, which the Minister of the 
 Interior may not care to deterniiiie. The Railway Committee has no kind of jurisdiction 
 over the question as to how this railway is tuget from Queen Street down to Brock Street 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL- Mr. Wells is the solicitor for the Credit Valley Rail- 
 wav Company, and is, of course, more famili;<r with the details which may come up in 
 the discussion, but he has requested me to state generally their ]iosition, and what they 
 are --l dining from the Government. We are relieved of a technical difficulty by the 
 prese-ice of the Minister of the Interior, who appeai-s to be the authority to wliom 
 nppli'Htion must first be made, with reference to the right of this railway to pass over 
 the ordnance property, from Queen Street to Bathurst Street. 
 
 . Sir JOHN MACDONALD- Bathurst street is the extreme limit of the Ordnance 
 Land? 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL— No. Brock Street is the eastern limit. The first 
 (piestion which we have to raise is as to the authority, power and, we will add, the duty 
 of the Government through the proper Department to hear our application for permission 
 to lay our t.uck along what we hold is still public property down to Brock Street. We 
 are now at Queen Street with our line, and waiting for the privilege to come down with 
 our line over this ordnance property. It appears that the Northern Railway Company 
 Maims the exclusive right to this property. 
 
Ml*. CAMSELfi — I wi8h it to be undei-stooil at the outset that wo taka olijection to 
 the jurisdiction of the Railway Committee in this matter, becaune I propose to argue, an<l 
 I think I can prove conclusively i,hat this strip of land in question is not ordnance pro 
 per^.y at all. 
 
 J. H. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGA LL — We lay in the tii-st place, that as a Railway Company 
 we have the same rights as other Railway Companies, and ought to be treated in &s 
 liberal a spirit by the Government as other Railway Companies in any matter in which 
 they have control. I need not say that the Credit Valley Railway, though noc l()oke<l 
 upon very favorably by rival lines, is very popular in the country. Jt has been l.ugely 
 aided by the City of Toronto and by nearly all the municipalities along its route. Dutin« 
 the hard limns it has not only obtained popular support but also f>ecuniary aid, and hva^ 
 l>een enabled to employ a large number of men in the work of construction. It has been 
 built to Queen Street, and we are now waiting for permission to reach its proper terminus, 
 the waters of the Bay in the City of Toronto. The origin of this entcrpiise has been tht- 
 desire of the people to have a new and independent line passing through the western 
 country, from the City of Toronto — a railway which would be under no contract or obi.- 
 gation and which would enter into no pooling arrangement with other companies. The 
 people have aided the Credit Valley Company on condition that it shall build an 
 independent line to the City of Toronto. The City itself has graiiVed a bonus ot .f 35 l,00(» 
 upon that condition, and the officers of the Credit Valley Railway feel that they would hv 
 breaking faith with those who have contributed so liberally towards the construct i(m of 
 the road if they allowed anything to pi-event them making the water front of the City ol' 
 Toronto its terminus. This has been the subject of negotiation between the parties wlios** 
 rights are in conflict. They have admitted tliat we ought to be permitted to get in to tht- 
 City in some way, but they wish to impose conditions. The Noi-theru Railwny, 1 may 
 say by way of illustration, .wish to impose the condition that if they allow us to come 
 down on their track we should agree never hereafter to ask the privilege to cross what 
 they call their station ground. We say that we have no right to bind in any way tho8»- 
 who may succeed us. We ask for the privilege of coming along this line. We say, "If 
 we take your property we are willing to pay for it under the ordinary couditiouM." 
 When we come to the Grand Trunk they profess to be very friendly. They say that they 
 wish us to reach their station and to get to our water lots, but they say we must enter 
 into conditions. They say that we must agree that we shall not interfere with their traf ■ 
 fie, that we shall not compete with them at points east, and in a general way <lesiie to put 
 us under obligations and conditions as to the mode in which we shall carry on our traffic. 
 We say that we are not able to submit to any such conditions; that ours is to be an 
 independent line, and we cannot have our hands tied. We say that we cannot 
 stipulate that we shall send our freight by water under certain conditions or shall not semi 
 it to points where we would compete with them. We refuse to be bound by anything of 
 the sort which wovdd destroy our charter in the eyes of those who aided the road. We are 
 di iven to come to the Government to get the privilege of reaching our terminus. We nay 
 between Queen Street and Bathurst Street you have complete control over the land. lu 
 the first place, the Northern Railway took up this strip of land over the Ordnance 
 property for a single track. There has been some correspondence on the subject which we 
 have had printed, with other documents bearing on the subject, in pam' hlet form, which 
 we thought would be convenient for the members of the Government to have before them 
 in the event of the point bein^ raised. W|ysay that this is still Oi-dnance property — that, 
 the light which the Northern Railway has^o that 100 feet is simply the right of occupa- 
 
6 
 
 riou. It is almost a hhuji squuttfr'h ii«bt. Tlmy have nl^ver \md for thia land and, con- 
 «)quently, they mo simply there as sfjimtters. Wo do not C(»in«i here to contend that they 
 h»TO no right to bo then*. We do not wish to disturb them. They have allowed thu 
 <crand Trunk Railway Company, to come in upon the 100 feet thoy kave taken by some 
 Atrangeuient, assuming thoy had tho right to do so. The Grand Trunk Railway originally 
 .mUiretl tho City by the lake shore. Tiiat route has been abandoned ; I think the 
 Toronto Grey ife Bruce, occupies it now. Tlie Northern Railway Gompany, contend that 
 they alone hnve a riglit to the 100 feet strip of laiid, and when the Grauu Trunk Railway 
 < Company wished to occupy more of it the other day, tho Northern Railway Company 
 Wrought them into tli.f CouVt of Cluuicery, and I believe it was held by that Hourt tliat 
 I he Northern Uailway Company showed no title. 
 
 Mr. BOULTON — My learned friend is quite mistaken. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS—We proved an agroeiupnt in 1800 by whidi we gave valuable rights 
 in exchange for tho land which you say we have )io right to. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MAC'DOUGALL— I am quoting from the docioe itself -they failed to 
 establish that they had a title to the property in question. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS — It was proved that instead of being trespassers they were in posseas- 
 ion of the land by virtue of an agreement with the Northern Railway. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL— The decree was that they had no title 
 U) the land. 1 simply allude to that to thow the tenure or title which 
 the Northern Railway Company appears to have had, which wo say was simply 
 takiu,:< up the l.uii and u.ning it from that day to this without having any further title. 
 N^ow, they only require to occupy, according to their plan fyled, about sixty-six feet. 
 Tliat apj)ear3 to be all that they asked for originally. They fenced in 100 feet. They 
 originally imd only one track, and the plan they fyled showed but one. We do not 
 contend that thuy would not require a double track some time, but we say that 100 feet 
 will accouiiuorlaU; seven tracks of railway, giving space for cars to pass without collision. 
 The Gr uik Trunk Llailway Company are putting down another track And the Northern Rail- 
 way Company are doing the same, and they are spreading their tracks over the simce in such 
 a way as to rend(U' it dirficult for another line to be run there. We have surveyed the land 
 •ind marked sufficient space for the Credit Valley Railway south of their lines, so that we 
 ean all be accommodated. We do not wish to interfere wi' h them ; we do not ask the 
 Government to aid us to incommode either of those companies, but we ask the right to 
 come over property the fee of which is still in the Crown. I separate that question from 
 the questio.i of crossings, because the payment of the $350,000 bonus granted by the 
 City of Toronto is subject to the condition that the road shall be built to Bathurst Street 
 as an independent line. The jiioney is lying there, and we want it to pay the men who 
 are engaged in constructing tho road. I mention this to urge tho speedy decision of the 
 Government on this point sepa'ate from any other, inasmuch as some of the leading 
 xnembers of the Government are to leave the country very soon, and it will be embarras- 
 sing if this question is not determined at once so far as the line to Bathurst Street is 
 ooncerne-1. We contend that there ought to be no difficulty in the case if the title to the 
 land is still in the Crown, as we contend that it is. We ask for a license of occupa- 
 tion, and we are willing to pay a reasonabl^mount for it. We say that the Government 
 
I attd, con- 
 1 that they 
 llowed th<j 
 n hj some 
 
 originally 
 
 think thtt 
 
 ntend that 
 
 k Railway 
 
 Company 
 'Jourt tliat 
 
 iil»le rights 
 
 y failed to 
 
 lit })()sse8a> 
 
 no title 
 :itle which 
 v&H simply 
 •ther title, 
 ty-six feet, 
 eet. They 
 We do not 
 t 100 feet 
 t collision, 
 'theru Ruil- 
 tace in such 
 ed the land 
 so that we 
 ot ask the 
 le right to 
 Dstion from 
 ited by tlie 
 urst Street 
 e men who 
 ision of the 
 the leading 
 9 embarras- 
 •st Street in 
 title to the 
 ) of occupa- 
 lovernment 
 
 <'An grant uh that without interf«!iiug with othur rights, ivn\ or pnvNumed. That is oii«' 
 |)oint. Now, as to another point of tijo question : Tlio Northern Railway CJompanv 
 got into uirticulties, as we all know, and the (Jovernment, I y Act of Purliamont, took 
 entire powcsition of all their property ami held it for a certain time. A reconstnicti«n of 
 the parties controlling the company took [ilacn, and the pi-operty was tninsfeiTod to thi-^ 
 new or reconstructed comiMiny with all tho rights ami privileges which belonged to the 
 company praviously, but with a special reservation. In tho Act of 23 Victoria recon 
 veying the N'orthorn Railway with all its rights and privihiges to tho new company 
 there is this iu?portant condition, in the interest of tiie public, I pre>ium*- : 
 
 •'The Governor-in-Council reserves the comi)lt!te control md direction of tho station 
 and other grounds in the (Uty of Toronto occupied by tho said company, as well its of thr 
 iillignmont and disposition of tho track of the said railway leading into and within the saiti 
 city, with a view of completing such arrangements as may be deemed exi)edient by the 
 Government with other provincial railways terminating in the said city." 
 
 Tho City of Toronto extends beyond Queen Street ; therefore, all thi.s property is w 
 the city. This clause was eraV)odied in tho Act, and is a clause from an Order in-Coiincil 
 which recites a great many conditions, and this reservation is ma<le in that Order-iu- 
 (Jouncil and in the Statute passed in 1809. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD — Did it up^»ly only to railways then in existence f 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL— That might bo contended, ])nt I think that the other 
 view is the correct one. First, because it was never intended to give any one or two 
 r.iilways the power to blojk the way against all future railways. We had very large 
 hopes in those days in regard to railway communication with the City of Toronto and ] 
 contend that the larger construction m'lst be put upon that clause. In the interests of 
 the trade of the country tho Government retained in its hands, in parting with tho pro 
 perty of the Northern Railway, tho control of the land in question and holds it to this 
 day. In the licenses of occupation and tho various Orders in Council pas8e<l from time to 
 time, there seem to have been an opinion and wish in the minds of the Government, in 
 all these transactions, to reserve control over those competing railways which it was then 
 foreseen would come into the City of Toronto. In the license of occupation given to thi' 
 City of Toronto for the purpose of building the Esplanade and in other licenses of occupation 
 provision is made for the control of the Government in the future with reference to rail- 
 ways. Even the City of Toronto itself did not obtain absolute dominion over this pro 
 perty. If there were any doubt that the Government, in these matters, preserved control 
 we would on public grounds and under the general Railway Act have tho means to invoke 
 tlie interference of the Government to reach this terminus. If we have to pass over thl'^ 
 land as private property, we can lay down our track upon it and pay them under arbitration. 
 We contend that there is nothing in law to prevent the Government giving us a license of 
 occupation to enable us to lay our track upon this 100 feet strip alongsitle the track of 
 the Northern Railway as fai as Bathurst Street. We say that there is sufficient room for 
 u3 all, and that seven tracks can be accommodated. We only require a single line at 
 present, but still we make provision for a double ti-ack, and that would be only six tracks, 
 while there is room for seven. We ask for such an allignment as will enable us to reach 
 this point. 
 
8 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD- 
 tion of crossing arise at all 1 
 
 -As far as the ovilimnce lanct is conceinetl, does the que.n- 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL — We are asking the interference of the Railway Com- 
 mittee of the Privy Council for two crossings. 
 
 Mr. WRAGGE — There are eight crossings. 
 
 Hon, Mr. MACDOUGALL— As to the line east of ?Bathurst Street, we find i( 
 necessary, in order to reach our depot or water terminus, to cross cei"taiu bi-anches of the 
 Grand Trunk Railway and 1 8uppos'> the Great Western. We ask for the necessary author- 
 ity to cross those lines, of course under the direction of engineers or whatever mode is the 
 proper one. In laj jg down the line, we have made as little disturbance of the existint( 
 lines as possible. I do not know that it is necessary to ai'gue any point in the case until 
 we hear the objections that may be I'aised. We have prepared a statement of our case, 
 which has been published. We regarded this as a matter of public importance, and not 
 wishing to do anything which could not be defended on public as well as on legal grounds, 
 we have taken the people into our confidence, and published in the Toronto journals, the 
 case of the Credit Valley Railway, citing shortly the different acts and transactions bear- 
 ing upon it. I have read it over this morning again, and I do not sec that very much i« 
 to be added. I know that the membei., of the Government do not care to hear long 
 arguments on points which do not necessarily arise. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS — Before going into the case, there is one point I wish to put before^ 
 the Committee both on behalf of the Grand Trunk Railway and on behalf of the Northern. 
 I suppose that anybody who has read the papers for the last fortnight, will see that they havt* 
 been deluged with correspondence fi'om the Credit Valley Railway Company, and that 
 after application had been made to this Court (because we look upon this Committee as a 
 Court,) there have been a series of lettei-s and resolutions gotten up, and the newspapers 
 have been filled with them. It may be a matter of remark, that neither the Northeri* 
 nor the Grand Trunk Railway have thought fit to answer those attacks. 
 We have not done so, because we thought that this Committee should be 
 considered as a Court of law, and that it was due to such a tribunal 
 that no remarks should be made in the press to influence public opinion on th<' 
 subject, and, besides, public opinion has nothing to do with the decision of the question 
 at all. This is why we did not answer those letters, and not because we did not think 
 the statements they contained were utterly without foundation. 
 
 It is said here by Mr. Macdoagall that the Credit Valley Railway Company want an 
 independent line from Queen Street to the water front, that they will not take favors 
 from any one or be hampered by conditions, and that they come here asking the Govern- 
 ment to give their own pi operty and to authorize the'u to force their way through. To 
 show that the Grand Trunk and the Northern were actuated by no hostility towards the 
 Credit Valley Railway and that we have offered to help them in every possible way, T 
 c;sk liberty to refer to two or three letters from Mr. Laidlaw, which seem to completely 
 refute the statements in the correspondence in the papers, and to Mr. Hickson's repliep. 
 There is a long correspondence, but I have merely noted one or two letters. Cix the 4t)i 
 of March last Mr. Laidlaw writes : 
 
 (PRIVAT 
 
 My De. 
 I hi 
 
 We 
 
 terms, t 
 Water ' 
 
 We 
 
 We 
 
 arrange: 
 
 Kj 
 
 indepsn 
 
 Chief E 
 
 Tl 
 Laidla' 
 
 (Privai 
 
 My Dje 
 
 la 
 
 of e'evf 
 remune 
 
 Mr 
 feeling 
 unfavoi 
 
 If 
 the int( 
 
 Jobs 1 
 
es the qvi«-,H- 
 ilway Com- 
 
 we find it 
 chea of the 
 lary author- 
 mode is th«i 
 the existing 
 e case untiJ 
 f our case, 
 ce, and not 
 ;al grounds, 
 mmals, the 
 ctiong bear- 
 sry much is 
 io hear long 
 
 ) put befon^ 
 5 Northern, 
 it they have 
 y, and that 
 mittee as a 
 newspapers 
 3 Northeri* 
 )0 attacks. 
 
 should be 
 a tribunal 
 ion on th<' 
 tie question 
 
 not think 
 
 ny want an 
 take favorn 
 he Govern - 
 rough. To 
 owards the 
 able way, 1 
 completely 
 on's repliep. 
 C the 4t)i 
 
 4 
 
 (Privatk. ) 
 
 Ckkwt Valley Railway, 
 President's Office, 
 
 Toronto. March i, 1879. 
 
 My Dear Sib,— 
 
 I have received and carefully read your letter of the Ist March, 
 
 >Ve want an independent line *o Bathurst Street and access to the Union Station on reasonable 
 terms, and faiilicies f. r the freighting business on our water lots between the Yaclit Club and the 
 Water Works. What would be the rental, and to whom payable ? 
 
 We are willing to pay fairly for the use of stations, tracks and other propertyt 
 
 We shall not consent to the tariflfs of our line being in any way hampered by the Esplanad 
 arrangements. 
 
 If you think, as you seemed to do when we last met, that no impediment in the way of the 
 independence of our tariffs would be proposed, I would like to have a plan of your scheme from your 
 Chief Engineer, with an estimate of costs, rents, &c. 
 
 (Signed) 
 
 Yours faithfully, 
 
 G. LAIDLAW, 
 
 President. 
 
 Then Mr, Hickson wi-ites in {king another offer, ami on tin; 10th of March Mr. 
 Laidlaw v/rites : 
 
 (Privatk. 
 
 Credit Valley Railway, 
 President's Office, 
 
 Toronto, March lOth, 1879. 
 
 My Dear Sir 
 
 I am most anxious for the use of the Union Station and for such Grand Trunk facilities, by way 
 of e'evatiug, storing, &c,, as it is possible for our company to have, and to pay therefor a reasonable 
 remuneration. 
 
 Mr. Hickson has always met me in a most kind and friendly spirit, and I am sure that no 
 feeling he may havq with rega-d to myself personally, or vice ver^a, can affect our negotiations 
 uniavorabiy. 
 
 If his views of what h due to his great company are reconcilable with what I think essential to 
 the interests of our little iuliiir, I hope we shall come to terms advantageous to both companies. 
 
 (Signed) 
 
 Yours faithfully, 
 
 G LAIDLAW. 
 
 John Bell, Q.C, 
 
 Belleville. 
 
10 
 
 On Apvil I St. Mr. Laidl.iw writes ; 
 
 (PRIVATF.) 
 
 C'eedix Valley Kailway, 
 
 Pkksident's Office, 
 
 Toronto, April Ist 187ft. 
 Mv Dkak Mr. HitivsoN,- 
 
 I received your telv^grarn of tliis date to which I replied on recoipt. 
 
 Perhaps yovi may not understand that I am personally quite unacquainted with the technical 
 business of railway management and engineering, and that I profess no knowledge of any moment 
 of the actual working of railways v,r siiich abstruse questions as relate to crossings, &c., such as may 
 exist on the Esplanade. 
 
 I am solicitous to come to terms : to get the use of you station : if needs be of your elevator, 
 and at all events to have free access to our own water lot proi> jrty. Independent r./w. to Bathurat 
 •Street indispensable. 
 
 If you will kindly propose apian stat-ng tho rents, method of payment and all costs, &c., fee., in 
 relation to the matter we Mill immediately hold a "Jury" your advisers and submit your proposition. 
 
 Yours faithfully, 
 
 (Signed I 0. LAIDLAW. 
 
 Joseph Hickhon, E.sq., 
 
 General Manager Grand 'I'lunk Railway Co. 
 
 Montreal. 
 
 ■w One letter refers to Mr. Cumberland's views, and asks Mr. Laidlaw, to meet Mr. 
 Cumberland, and see whether their views would coincide on the point. From subsequent 
 correspondence it seems that an arrangement was almost effected whereby the Credit 
 Valley Railroad could get to Bathurst Street. From that point to the Union (Station they 
 accept the terms of the Grand Trunk Railway. Everything runs smoothly ; letters are 
 written by Mr. Laidlaw, in the most friendly spirit, and he thanks the Grand Trunk Pnd 
 the Northern for their kindness. A letter is written by Mr. Cumberland, in the middle of 
 May, and the next thing we know is that an appointment is taken out 
 here, and there is nothing further except a letter from Mr. Hickson in 
 the middle of June, making certain propositions and an answer from Mr. Laidlaw, 
 .saying, " We will not treat with you at all," but, even down to that time, friendly rela- 
 tions were maintaine J. That pamphlet is put in the hands of the Committee as being a 
 synopsis of the proceedings which took place, and tho title of the lands held by the 
 Northern and Grand Trunk Railway Companies. That pamphlet is prepared from my 
 papers, for, even after this appointment is taken up, Mr. Laidlaw, representing the Credit 
 Valley Railway Company, stiites that the Grand Trunk Railway Company is friendly 
 with them, and bon-ows from my clerk, in my absence, all the papers relating to this 
 matter. The pamphlet and the certificate of counsel are the product of that. It so turns 
 out, as I will show, that a lot of material papers, relating to title deeds, were omitted, 
 and, therefore, that this pamphlet, in that respect, is utterly unreliable. Now, wo come 
 to this : they are here claiming that they have a legal right to take that land fi'om us. 
 
11 
 
 [ailway, 
 
 r's Office, 
 
 », April Ist 187». 
 
 vith the technical 
 ;e of any moment 
 &c., such aa may 1 
 
 I of your elevator, 
 r./w. to Bathurst 
 
 losts, &c., fee, in \ 
 your propoBition. i 
 
 A.\V. 
 
 ^r, to meet Mr. 
 rom subsequent 
 i-eby the Credit 
 on Station they 
 illy; letters are 
 and Trunk And 
 n the middle of 
 is taken out 
 Hickson in 
 1 Mr. Laidlaw, 
 , friendly rela- 
 ttee as being a 
 ids held by the 
 pared from my 
 ting the Credit 
 my is friendly 
 relating to this 
 it. It so turns 
 
 were omitted, 
 Now, wo come 
 
 land fi'om us. 
 
 Ther ask the Covermuent to give them that right. We take the ground first, that no 
 .uch right can be granted by the Crown, and, secondly, that there is vacant lauc south ot 
 the 100 feet strip ample to let them reach Bathui-st IStreet. But, instead ot taking that 
 Knd thev niise this cloud of smoke with their pamphlet and con-e3iM)ndence, and, under 
 ^ver of it seek to rob us of our lands. If they have a right, under the Railway Act, 
 m take our lands, that is a matter for the courts to deal with. There is no reason shown 
 lor their going outside of their legal i-emedy. 
 
 It becomes necessary now to show that the Grand Trunk and the Northern hav-e^ an 
 .tjsolute right to that strip of 100 feet. In the first place, their charter authorized them 
 to teke 120feet. These lands are vested by 7 Vic, Cap. 43 in the principal officers ol 
 Her Maiesty'8 ordnance. That Act authorizes any two of the officers of the board to 
 treat, sell, negotiate or take any other steps they choose with regard to those lands. Ihe 
 Northern Railway Incorporation Act was passed in 1849. It authorized them to cross 
 < Government lands, or the lands of any other corporations, with a ^ew to building their 
 road In 1851 the Northern Railway Company fyled their map, claiming, not 1 JO teet 
 but 100 feet of Ordnance land. In addition to this they took this land onwhich their 
 depot is built, and on which they are called " squatters." Mr. Sandford Fleming pre- 
 uared a map of the Ordnance Lands in 1851, for the Ordnanc6 Department, and this 100 
 feet is laid down as reserved out of those lands as well as 34 acres not now in question 
 ..ast of Bathui-st Street. The pamphlet states that from then to the present time the, 
 Ordnance Board never recognized that right. That statement is entirely without founda- 
 tion also, because I have hero orders from the Ordnance authorities sanctioning that 
 roservation. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— From the principal officers .' 
 
 Mr CASSELS— Yes. I have documents showing that thoy had looked into the 
 litle of 'the lands in question, and showing it to be a good title. I propose to refer to 
 letters of the Master General of Ordnance, dated the 9th of January, and the 7th ot 
 February 1852, after the line had been located and fenced by the Northern Railway, and 
 to the report of the Inspector General of Fortifications to show that the company cannot 
 he said to have acted illegally in entering upon the Ordnance reserve, and that the Depart- 
 ment can ouly demand of the company such a sum as may be considered fair value tor the 
 laud taken, and if the price should be disputed, that the value be fixed by arbitration. 
 The documents to which I have referred are as follow : j 
 
 First— There is the application from the Hon. H. J. Boulton,on behalf of the Ontario 
 .Simcoe and Huron Railroad, dated 27th October, 1851, to "The Honorable Board of 
 liespective Officers, Montreal," asking " certain portions of the Military Reserve in 
 " Toronto, which the company required as well for a portion of thi.s line as for convenient 
 " sites for stations, workshops and other appurtenances recjuired for so important a 
 " work,*' 
 
 Tlion appears on the original appliciition the following memo ; 
 
 " MistTE, Head-Qhakters, MoNTRK.u., 28th October, 1851. 
 
 " Befer to the couiman-Uiig Royal Engineei-, 
 "M. W. B, P. M. 
 
 "0. S. K. 0. S. K. 
 
 Bg. 
 
12 
 
 I 1^ 
 
 Also : 
 
 " 14-11-51. Submit ti the Honorable Board with reference to the C. R. E. minute undemeatli 
 and acquaint Mr. Boultonthe matter has been sent home for the decision of the Board. 
 
 "B. L.L., M. W. B., 
 
 " Capt. and Adjt. K. E. A. S. K." 
 
 The minute refeiTed to in the above memo is as follows : 
 
 " The Lieu*-. -General commandng has no military objection to the proposed measure, on the con- 
 dition that the company pay the value of the buildings situated on the ground they required ; provide a 
 proper officer of ihe Engineer Department, and build a new commissariat st re near the Queen's 
 wharf. * * » ♦ ♦ V ♦ 
 
 The extent of land demanded by the company is 34 acres. 
 
 (Signed^, 
 
 " 14th November, 1851. ' 
 
 ittii. 
 
 F. N. WHINGATES, 
 
 Lieut.-Col., v. R. E. 
 
 And w( 
 fctructions, i 
 be forwardei 
 rhich may 
 
 Isigned.)— ' 
 ' *'a. C.I 
 
 [i. BCTLER, 
 
 This 1 
 ^f the Ma: 
 ^vas made 
 Railway. 
 
 Copy o 
 Grounds, i 
 
 It seei 
 |Storekeepe 
 the 10th ch 
 
 _^any canno 
 On the 15th November, 1H51, a letter is \vi'itt<'n dated at tie Office rf Ordnance, I pent, and tl 
 
 Montreal 
 
 [copy.] 
 Ordnance, No. UH. 
 
 B. 
 
 «>FfICK UF OrDNANCF, 
 
 Montreal, 15th A'oveuiber, 1851. 
 
 SlR,- 
 
 1. — We have the honor herewi'h to submit for the Master General and Honorable Board's i.on- 
 sideration, an application we have received from the Honorable H J. Boulton Pieeident o? the 
 *' Toronto, 8imcoe and Lake Huron Union Railroad C mpany " praying for a grant of Ordnance Land 
 at Toronto, for the purpose of thai wo-k, the Commanding Royal Enginee's repo t on the propoti- 
 t.on, being also tiausmitted with a copy of the Act of Incorporation, establishing the company. 
 
 2. — In other applications for conce sions of Ordnance I>ands for rail oad objects, U has heretofore 
 been usual, where no military objections existed, to recommend to the MasMr General and Honor- 
 able Board, ihat the privileu,e of occupation should be conceded upon payment of a rent constituted 
 at 6 ptr cetitk upon the supp sed value of the ground required fo- the works, subject of course, to any 
 special res rictions which each pa icular case migh* render necessary, and ir he p esens instance wt; 
 wtuld « bseve ihat > he extent of land axkedfor s 34 acres, whilst its esti ma ed value <s. £200 curt ency 
 per acre, and ihe worth of the buildings to be lernovedis calcula ed to be £1,25.? sterling. 
 
 3. As the decision however of the Home Authorities u^on the proposition for resuming possession 
 of the Toronto reserve, and rendering the whole of the lana available for the location of Pensioners, 
 has not yet been communicated to us by the Honorable Board, we abstain from offering any sugges- 
 tion upon the present occasion, especially as Major TuUoch. whose letter of the 29th ultimo and our 
 reply are enclosed, informs us that the before-mentioned arrangement is to be carried into effect with- 
 out delay : — 
 
 Oomp my, 
 of the land 
 (Sessions, a 
 sum may bi 
 tha Master 
 the Secreta 
 
 Ther 
 sent to th 
 •'eedings 
 Huron Ri 
 at Toront 
 
 On t 
 Cant, C. ( 
 
 "SlR,- 
 
 letter of 8r 
 under the I 
 
 "The 
 <"ap. 196, a 
 
 1S52, jj^g ( 
 
 Wha 
 :indthede 
 without r 
 that assev 
 reported 
 
13 
 
 lute undemeatli 
 
 sure, on the con- 
 uired ; provide a 
 lear the Queen's 
 
 ¥iiu 
 
 .TE8, 
 
 ., C. R. E. 
 
 f Ordnance. 
 
 veuiber, 1851. 
 
 ble Board's i.on- 
 Pieeident o? the 
 ' Ordnance Land 
 on I he propoti- 
 I company. 
 
 U has heretofore 
 leral and Honor- 
 rent constituted 
 of course, t o any 
 lens instance wt; 
 <8£200cunency 
 ling. 
 
 umingpossessio]! 
 )n of Pensionere, 
 ■ing any sugges- 
 h ultimo and our 
 1 into effect with - 
 
 ^ And we therefore respectfully submit the application for the Master-General a;id the Board's in- 
 structions, and would heg to refer to the Commanding Royal Engineer's report and plan, which will 
 ^e forwarded to the Inspector-General of Fortifications by the present Mail, for any further particulars 
 vhich may be required. 
 
 We have, &c., &c., 
 
 [sicned )— Thos. Dynklv, Bexj'n. S. Stkhelix, Tuos. 0. Storck, W. H. P.., Col. C. U A., Capt. & 
 I A. C. R. E., iilisent on duty, Dy. 0. S. 
 
 b. BcTLEE, Esq., &c., Ac, 4c. 
 
 This application and the remarks of the Olficere in Canada, received the consideration 
 Df the Master-General of Ordnance in England, and on the 2nd February, 1852, an order 
 /as made by the Board of Ordnance sanciioning the occupation of the 34 acres by the 
 Railway. This Order is as follows : 
 
 Copy of the Order of the Master-General of Ordsaxoe is h£i NoaTUEUii Raiiavay Depot 
 ![:jRorND.s, Oth Jan'y., 1852.— 
 
 It seems from these reports from the Inspector-General of Fortifications the Oidnance 
 IStorekeeper and the Ordnance Solicitor, there is no doubt that under the provisions of 
 the 10th clause of the Act to incorporate the Ontario, Simcoe & Huron Railway CJonipany, the Com- 
 oany cannot be consideied to have acted illegally in entering the Reserve without he previous con- 
 pent, and that the Department can only insist upon compensation in the manner prescribed by the 
 Oom'p my, which will be to demand of the Comj)auy such a sum as may be considered the fair value 
 of the land taken, and if refused to hive the price fixed by the Chairman of the General Quarter 
 Sessions, and the Justices as provided by the : I7th Section of the Railway Act, allowing whatever 
 sum may be so recovered to be paid into the Military Chest to the public credit, in which proposition 
 tha Master and Board request the acquiescence of the Secretary of State, and through His Lordship 
 [the Secretary of War. 
 
 Thereuj)on an order of the Board of Ordnance, dated 2nd of February 1852, was 
 sent to the Company, transmitting a copy of the above letter and approving of the pro 
 ceedings of the respective officei-s of Ordnance under which the Ontario, Simcoe and 
 Huron Railway Company had taken possession of that portion of the Ordnance Reserve 
 at Toronto Avhich they required. 
 
 On the 5th December 185G, a letter is written as follows, signed by T. L. Gall way, 
 Capt, C. C. R. Engineera and addressed to W. T. Coffin Esq, Ordnance Lmd Agent. 
 
 •'Sir,— I am directd by t>« j Court Royal Engineers in Canada, to inform you in reply to your 
 letter of 8rd inst., that the so^ • ^ Railway Companies took possession of Oidnance Lands at Toronto, 
 under the following terms: 
 
 "The Ontario Simcoe and Huron Co. took possession under authority of their charter, 12 Vic, 
 < "ap. 196, and the legality of the possession was recognized by the Ins. G. & 3rd. order of 2nd Feby. , 
 
 I S52, j,^g Copy herewith. 
 
 What they applied for was right of way fron> Queen Street : it includes the 100 feet strip 
 ;i nd the depot ground. The Northern Rail v^-ay Company have been accused of squatting there 
 without right or title, and I have called attention to these documents to show how groundless 
 that assertion was. In 1872 the Secretary of State investigated this same matter and he 
 reported in this way : — 
 
14 
 
 " In the case oi' tlio Ontario, Bitncoe & Huron Railway Company , we have strfficieiH 
 proof that in 1851 this company demanded from the Imi^erial Mihtary Authorities 34 acre- 
 of land, value £200 pei acre, and that the military authorities acceded to the demand. 
 
 Hon. Mr. ATKINS— Was that communicated to the Nortliern Railway Company ! 
 
 Mr CASSELS— Yes, but fortunately it did not get into the possession of the Credit 
 Vallev Railway Company. Of course that does not prove anything. It does not show 
 more than I have shown from ordei-s in council, plans and maps, and the evidence ol 
 Mr. Sandford Fleming. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— Has no action been takenon that nJiwrt of Col. Coffin's 
 to the Secretary of State 1 
 
 Mr C SSELS— That i-eport was made with regard to a claim for the purchase mone\ . 
 By the act of 1856 a portion of the ordnance lands was transferred to the Secretary of 
 State for England and the balance to the Queen, represented by tho Provincial Govern 
 ment, subject to all existing contracts and agreements. It was contended by Col. Cothu. 
 representin*' the Crown, as against the Great Western, that the land which the Great 
 Western had purchased, though sold before the act was passed vesting them m the Crown 
 should be paid for to the representative of the Crown here. The Law Officers advised 
 differently, that any purchase money on sales before that date belonged to the Ordnance- 
 Department in England. 
 
 Hon. Mr. AIKINS- 
 
 way Company 'i 
 
 -Was that ever cDmmunicated officially to th« Northern Rail 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— I can not say. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER— Was it communicated officially to anybody ! 
 
 Mr. CASSELS I am not aware of that either. This has been furnished to me as 
 
 <»uo of the reports in the office. 
 
 Mr. BOULTON — They furnished us with some documents. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— As to the title there never was any dispute about it until the 
 Credit Valley Company stepped in and said that we had no right to the land, in 1851 , 
 the Northern Railway took possession of it ; they continued in possession down to 1859, 
 when, as my learned friend, Mr. Macdougall, says the Act was passed which vested th(^ 
 whole property in the Crown. Then, in 1860, the Act re transfen-ing it, was passed, 
 and the Order-in-Council which re transferred the property is set out in that Act. Mr. 
 Macdougall has read that resei-vation as applying to all railways to be brought in to the 
 viity for the future- Your remark, sir, that it applied only to ivilways then in exist 
 enoe is beyond all question, the true reading of the clause. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL— I think the Minister of the Interior expressed no 
 opinion. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— I merely asked a question. 
 
15 
 
 liave strfficienl 
 >ritles 34 acre« 
 le demand." 
 
 ay Company '. 
 
 of the Credii 
 loes not show 
 lie evidence of 
 
 f Col. Coffin^ 
 
 fchase mone\'. 
 ) Secretary of 
 ncial Govern 
 )y Col. Coffin, 
 ch the Great 
 in the Crown 
 Seers advised 
 >he Ordnance 
 
 arthern Rail 
 
 hed to me as 
 
 it until the 
 d. in 1851, 
 own to 1859, 
 ;h vested th<^ 
 ), was passed, 
 it Act. Mr. 
 ight in to the 
 len in exist- 
 
 expressed no 
 
 Mr. CASSELS—Theu 1 niisuudei-stood the remark, but, at all events, that is tin- 
 Inie interpretation of it. In order to get at the meaning of tlio ©lause, it is necessary tc 
 Lnsider what was taking |)iace at that time. 1 have, in my hands here, correspondence 
 feommenoing in 1855 and terminating in 1859, between the Railway Committee as then 
 [onstitated, the Northern Railway, the (irand Trunk and the Great Western. That 
 
 orrespondence shows that it was the desire of the Crown, at that time, and also of th<^ 
 i4rand Trunk, that the three i-ailways should bo brought in alongside of each other, and 
 llie correspondence and the reports are here which set out how it was proposed that the 
 Ihree roads should run in, and there are counter propositions by the Grand Trunk and 
 Breat Western which were subsequently, in 1860, settled by agreement. Looking at 
 these facts, the language of the clause is perfectly plain— it relates only to railways then 
 Vvisting. In 1875, an act was passed declaring that the objects of the Order-in-Council 
 lave been fulfilled, and the order itself is rei>ealed in so many words by the act of 1875-- 
 ks Vic. Cap. 65. On looking at the reasons for the repeal it will be found that thre is 
 [t page 38 a recital of the fact that the object? of the order have b3en fulfilled. If that 
 [pplied to future railways, it is repealed and there is an end of it. In 1859 what took 
 [lace 1 Th J Northern Railway have a title to that land. They may not have a legal 
 title, but they have an equitable title, and the legal title is held in trust for them. It is 
 Vested in the Crown, and in 1860 the Crown re-vests the whole of it in the Northern 
 Jlailway. What higher title can you have ? The equitable title is vested in the Crown 
 In 1859^ and in 1860 an act is passed which vests all the property in the Norther)i 
 
 lailwav. 
 
 Mayor BEATY~A11 the proi»erty that it had before. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— Certairly, and what better title can you have ? In 1860 the Grainl 
 ^runk Railway obtained right of way to extend from Bathurst Street, I think, to Pet«n' 
 Jtreet, through the depot lands of the Northern Railway. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— Is Peter street east of Brock Street* 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— Yes. They had to pay for that £7,500. In August of 1860 they 
 jntei-ed into an an agreement with the Northern Railway Co., by which they transferred 
 ,he right they had ft-om Bathurst to Brock Street to the Northern Railway Co., and that 
 .s confirmed by Act of Parliament in 1865. They got from the Northern in exchange the 
 light to two tracks from Brock street running west to Queen street, over this ordnance 
 •roperty, and in addition the land lying between their track and the fence to the north, 
 >etween Bathurst street and the Diamond Crossing, and the land lying between then- 
 ;rack and the fence to the south, between the Diamond Crossing and Queen street. That 
 rasin 1860. If evidence is to be gone into, I have here the depositions of Walter 
 hanly, Frank Shanly, Mr. Brydges, and Sandford Fleming, who proved that this was the 
 !ondition of affairs when this bill referred to was fyled. We built a switch, and the 
 "^^orthern Railway fyled a bill alleging that the land belonged to them, and asking the 
 .Jourt to restrain us from trespassing on their lands. We pleaded the agreement of 1860, 
 imd it was proved that the Grand Trunk wei-e not ti-espasseiu The decree was practically 
 % non-suit, and the bill was dismissed. From 1860 to the present, the Gmnd Trunk 
 lave held this land, having paid about !!^30,000 for it. In addition to that they have paid 
 heir proportion of the money expended in improving this 100 feet strip. Mr. Frank 
 hanly is here, and wc have his evidence to show that he was paid #60,000 for improvmi; 
 
16 
 
 that land from Queen to Brock street. This is the land which they wish to take from us 
 without compensation. Coming back to the question of title, it appears that in 1856 the 
 Ordnance Lands at Toronto were vested in the Crown, but this strip does not appear to 
 be among the lands so transfen-ed. That left the Northern in possession legally under 
 the Ordnance Department. It so remained until the Confederation Act was passed. The 
 contention of the Credit Valley Kailway Company is this : " By the Confederation Act 
 these lands passed to the Crown," but this land in question was not among the lands 
 referred to in section 108, as having been transferred to the Dominion, because they had 
 been sold to the Northern before that. I say, therefore, that the fee is not in the Crown 
 in any shape or form, but if it is, it is in the Crown as bare trustee for the Northern and 
 the Grand Trunk. My learned friends have based another argument on a report made by 
 Sir Alexander Campbell, I think, when he was acting Commissioner of Crown Lands. It 
 was in connection with a dispute between the city and the Northern Railway Company, 
 You will see by that report that Mr. Campbell expressly points out, with regard to the 
 lands now claimed by U3, that the Northern had a title. It stated that the railway com- 
 pany took possession of the land in 1849, " with the consent of both parties ; agreement 
 lost." 
 
 Hon. Mr. "W KLLS — There was no agreement. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— He states that the agreement was lost. He was only dealing with 
 the land east of Bathurst street, that on which the Northern depot was built. 
 
 8ir JOHN MACDONALD— That is in the dispute between the City and the 
 Company ? 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— Yes. On reading Mr. Campbell's report, you will find that his 
 nttention was not called to the fact that an order was passed by the Ordnance Board 
 sanctioning the occupation. The judgment proceeds upon this entirely — that although 
 an application had been made to the Ordnance Board for liberty to take those lands, no 
 sanction by the Ordnance Board had been shewn. It was upon this that he gi-anted a 
 license to the Corporation, and refused to hold that, with regard to the depot land, tl ^ 
 Northern were entitled to it. But I say this : if these orders from the Ordnance Board, 
 and these reports made by the Ordnance Officers, had been submitted to Mr. Campbell, 
 the report would never have been made in that shape, and the reasoning in the report 
 shows that conclusively on its face. Although they got a large award, I do not believe 
 that the Northern will pay it, because, if they can satisfy the court that the title was in 
 them, of course that report would fall to the ground. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— That has no legal etiect.. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— I know that, but I point it out because great stress is laid upon 
 it. The basis of the decision is that no order was made by the Ordnance Board. If the 
 title deeds had then been produced, the decision would have been different. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— Tliat was confirmed by Order-in-Council. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS — That may be. That Order-in-Council ga^e them the lands, re- 
 serving the rights of occupation of the Northern Bail way Company. V\\itli regard to tilts 
 
ake from uh 
 n 1856 the 
 )t appear to 
 r&Wy under 
 a>.8ed. The 
 iration Act 
 ; the lands 
 e they had 
 , the Crown 
 rthem and 
 »rt made bj 
 Lands. It 
 
 Company, 
 »ard to the 
 ilway com- 
 
 ngreement 
 
 iealing with 
 
 and the 
 
 id that his 
 ance Board 
 it although 
 3 lands, no 
 J gi'anted a 
 t land, tl .^ 
 mce Board, 
 . Campbell, 
 the report 
 not believe 
 itle was in 
 
 3 laid upon 
 ird. If the 
 
 
 17 
 
 poaition of the Grand Trufik Railway Comp vay, wo say that Mr. Hickson i* willing, an I 
 he always has been willing, to treat with the Ore lit Valley Railway Conpany, iu the 
 fairest possible way. If Mr. Laidlaw is not willing to run from Bathurst street or 
 Brook street to the Union Station, as he fonnnrly was, let him make a proposal. That 
 proposal would be entertained outside of this court, but the stand that wo take hero is 
 this • that to this moment we have been on frienlly terms with the Credit Valley Kail- 
 way Company, that we have facilitated them in every way, and are willing, outsiJe of 
 this tribunal, to do so in the future. The Northern R lilway have met them in the same 
 friendly wiy', and aided them, to a great extent, b30-ian tU jy are indebted to Mr. Cu.a- 
 berland, who pointed out a line by which they could reach the city. But they have 
 chosen to come here and we are forced to meot them on the legal position. We are not 
 going to be taken by the throat and compelled to give up our lauds. We are not goiag 
 to be coerced into doing what wo think we are not legally bound to do. I take this posi- 
 tton that the Minister of the Interior has no jurisdiction over the matter at the pre-seut 
 time ; that even if he had, there are nice legal questions to be raised. There is no reason 
 whatever why, undei the Act of last session or the Consolidated Statutes of 
 1866 and the Act of 1868, tho Credit Valley Railway Company should not fyle their 
 plans, give notice that they will take those lands and take possession of them by means of 
 Arbitration. They could have paid for the right of way for half the amount they have 
 paid for counsel and newspaper articles. That right is open to them. We cannon debar 
 them from it. If there is land to the south for railway purposes, let them take it. The 
 Urand Trunk are crowded. Even now they have not space enough. The Northern are 
 ill the same way. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONAT.D— You say they could have got the land for loss than 
 rlit! counsel fees ; how could that be if the space is already filled 1 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— I mean the land to the south; there is plenty of land there. They 
 liave but one motive for coming here. They conceive that the title to the land is in the 
 i )rown, and they suppose that they can get a portion of it without paying for it. If they 
 had been disabused of that idea, they would have taken tho land to the south and built 
 ill their line to Bathurst street long before this. Mr. Laidlaw, in one of his letters, 
 <!laim3 sympathy for the Credit Valley Railway on the ground that it is a small affair 
 oompaied with the Grand Trunk, but surely our interests ought to be protected. Surely 
 the Gmnd Trunk and the Northern have done as much for Toronto as the Credit Valley. 
 If there is space to the south of their land, why should their communications be cut off 
 ill four or five places f Why should the Credit Valley Railway be given greater facilities 
 than other railways receive ] There is no reason for it, and I ask in all confidence that 
 this matter be left to the courts to deal with. At all events, if you deal with it, I ask 
 that our rights be not interfered with. 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS— Ho^- oould we get from Bathurst Street into the city 1 
 
 e latids, re- 
 egard to the 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— I will come to 
 wast they were willing to use the 
 now, " We are not going to bind 
 
 like this in which posterity Wiis not bound in some wayl From the 6t»h of 
 April down to Saturday last no action was taken. On Saturday Mr. Hickson, who had 
 to leave for New York on verv important business connected with the Grand Trunk 
 
 that presently. From Bathurst Street 
 
 Grand Trunk Railway. They say 
 
 posterity." Whoever heard of a case 
 
18 
 
 Railway, v,n. sorved with a copy of the phtn and of the notice> That notice does uoi a.l< 
 to cross the Grand Trunk at, all, but last Tuesday a new notice was served «PO" h. u 
 returnable to-dav, and he is asked to come here on two days' notice and expected to W 
 Iblo to move to'the Railway Committee on that «hort notice that this lino is going to 
 hurt his track. I say it is impossible to do it. With regard to Mr. Walter Shanly 
 and the other witnesses, I contend that we should have more time before their evi.lence 
 ^^n be gone into. I submit, with all deference, that this should not be fon^eJ upon us. 
 I say that it is not reasonable that we should be prepared on such short notice and in the 
 absence of Mr. Hickson. I would also call attention to the fact that they are apply inj.- 
 under an A(-t which has been repealed. They serve us with a notice that the application 
 hall be made under the Hallway Act of 1868. In the first place, hat Act, by the 
 express terms of it, does not apply to the Gmnd Trunk but to milways construe., 
 after it. The Act of 18G8 is only made applicable to the Intercolonial and to railways 
 (constructed after that date. 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS — It is a re-enactment. 
 
 Mr CASSELS— The Act of last session, copied from the Act ot 1808, does not 
 apply to' the Grand Trunk Eailway, but to futnre railways. We do not wish to thwart 
 any scheme that the Credit Valley Railway Company may wish to carry out but when 
 thev force us to come liere on two days' notice it is practically asking for a decision ot 
 the matter without giving the Grand Tiunk or Great Western a hearing, and I am 
 entitled to say that their notice is defective. The Act of 1868 is repealed, and their 
 notice is to apply under that Act. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL— Thtit is i. technicality which this Court is not likely 
 to take any notice of. 
 
 Mr CASSELS— If we are to be forced to consider this question of crossings on 
 -such short notice, we must be judged without having a say in the matter. With regard 
 to the first point, as to the title of the lands, we are prepared, because that is a question 
 which can be worked up in Toronto, but the other is an engineering matter. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL— You received s. copy of this plan 'i 
 
 Mr CASSELS— Yes, on Monday. It was mailed to Montreal on Saturday, so far 
 as the Northern are concerned, I am advised that they only got the plan on Tuesday but 
 the notice serving the plan on Monday, did not ask to cross the Grand Trunk at all. They 
 rectified that and the regular notice was received yesterday or the day beiore. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TXTPPER— Has not the question of crossing the Grand Trunk 
 Railway by the Credit Valley Railway been the subject of negotiation between Mr. Laid- 
 law and Mr. Hickson ! 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— No. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TURPER— I understood tliat they had discussed it in a friendly 
 wanner. 
 
 Mr CASSELS- ^*^~ T „: Ji..«> .i.-.«rn frt flio rlo^lifi tnnlr tbpsft nroceedinsTS. was satis- 
 fied to take a portion 
 
 -Mr. Laidlaw, down to the day he took these proceedings, was 
 of this atrip as far a«. Butlnirst street, an-^ ^rom that .le wrh 
 
 going 
 
19 
 
 (locB not ask 
 kI upon him, 
 cpcctod to l)t' 
 10 is going to 
 Valter Slmnly 
 ;holr evidence 
 •ceJ upon us. 
 ice and in the 
 ! are applying 
 he ap[)lication 
 Act, by the 
 ^8 constructiid 
 d to railways 
 
 1 
 
 to run on tlic (rrand Trunk track to the Union Station, That was the suhject of corrrs 
 pondence, and that is what they seem to have got almost at one about. I think that thif 
 could be arranged if the management were horn, ViecHune down to May iit all events Mr. 
 Lai Haw was perfectly satisfied with it. He proposes to cross our track, lam told, in 
 about twenty places. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER— And go in by an indep.nid.'iit line ? 
 
 Mr. CASSEIiS — Yes, andof tliat we never had notice until Wednosdiiy. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER— Have you a plan of tliat now f 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— Wo have. 
 
 At one o'clock the Committee rose for recess. 
 
 18G8, does not 
 'ish to thwart 
 out, but when 
 • a decision of 
 iig, and I am 
 led, and their 
 
 rt is not likely 
 
 if crossings on 
 With regard 
 t is a questio!\ 
 jr. 
 
 Saturday, so far- 
 an Tuesday, but 
 nk at all. They 
 ore. 
 
 le Grand Trunk 
 ween Mr. Laid- 
 
 it in a friendly- 
 dings, was satis- 
 at he was going 
 
 AFTER RECESS. 
 
 The Conunittee met at 2 o'clock. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER— We should like to h^^ar from the Great Western. 
 
 Mr. STIFF — We want more time. The corrected })lan was only received in 
 iramilton on Monday last. I have only seen it a short time ago. So far as our Compam 
 is concerned, the appaoach to Toronto could be made without crossing the track of the 
 Great Western at all. My principal object in rising now is to say that it is absolutely 
 necessary that more time should be given to enable us to discuss the subject more intel- 
 ligibly. The traffic of the Gre it Western has been seriously interfered with for want of 
 accommodation along the Esplanade to Queen's Wharf, and the approach of the Credit 
 Valley Railway will add another element to the d'fficulty. It was illustrated very for 
 cibly last September, at the time of the Provincial Exhibition, when we endeavored to 
 cany a large number of passengers, and utterly failed for want of space. It is impossible 
 for our manager to be here. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— When did you get your notice and the plan 1 
 
 Mr. STIFF — The fir.st one was received ten days ago, and .v;3' >ntly a oon'ecte<l 
 one was sent which we only received on Monday or Tuesday n "* f" I only saw it on 
 Tuesday. It involved an entire cha'^ge of track which it would ue impossible to carry 
 
 out. I think the 
 altogether. 
 
 crossmg 
 
 of the Great Western at Queen's Wharf can '■■■■■ avoided 
 
 Mr. W. H. BEATTY— So far as the Toronto, Grey k Bruce is concerned, I do 
 not think that the Privy Council have any jurisdiction over us. We are a local 
 road, and the Credit Valley is also a local roal With regard to the plans, we were no- 
 tified on Tuesday last, at 2 p.m., not to come here, and at 4 p.m., new plans and a notice 
 were sent in. The Toronto, Grey & Bruce Railway is using part of the Grand Trunk 
 track as a leised line. If the Credit Valley Railway can come in by an independent line, 
 we want the same riffht, .ind we crive notice that we will demiiTid it. 
 
* 
 I * 
 
 so 
 
 Sir JOHN M\»*i)()NiLLD~Yoii Im-i l)ottM- join Uowos with (he (,^re.lit Valley 
 Railway. 
 
 Mr. STIFK -Wo also want a Bopa.ute lino into Toronto. We rr.n from Petor street 
 <.ii a switch of the Grand Trunk Ilailway. 
 
 Sir CUAIM.ES TUPPEIl-What has tie city to say ? 
 
 Tklwor HKATY-Wo stautl and look on, with this iutorost, that we want the Credit 
 Valley Sway to con.e in. as we would desire t. have all th-.lways ^at -M^v^^^ 
 bl7 bo brought into the city. Wo have given a bonus of ^-^^^ ^OO to the Credit V alloy 
 Railway, wfth a view of having an indepen.lent hue running into the city. 
 
 Sir JOHN .\[ACDONALD— You get it only as far as Bathurst street < 
 these lands, under the license of occupation to the city. 
 
 ] 
 
 fee. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD-Thtt would give you a title only to the value of the 
 
 Mayor BE ATY-The patent was to follow. If they take the land wc are entitled 
 to thfvaluo inio real interest of the city is this : we are very anxious to have this road 
 ;ened If enti^nce is allowed to Bathurst street I undersu^iv tha^ h^^^^^^^^^ -U b 
 completed, so far as traffic is concerned, by September next. Tliat will bo m time 
 the tall trade. 
 
 i 
 
 line 1 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD-Can you not reach Bathursc street by th southern 
 
 Mayor BEATY-The real point is that it should be an independent line. The idea 
 hafbeenarl the idea in. that if the Credit Valley Ilailway were dependent for any 
 re^onu;on the Grand Trunk or Great Western, they might impose such rates and con- 
 ^^^r« il w rt ?eDrive the city of the advantages which a competing line was ex- 
 tS^r^"^: TrravrbeenYd to believe tha^ that is the real difficulty now-tha 
 c'ot4o^'\.-', rO^Kiled to the Credit Valley Railway which we are notwiUingto 
 6ubmit to. 
 
 
 I of Cam 
 I Seoi-etA 
 I oaly no 
 F«ee -bis 
 ^subject 
 was to 
 
 ])0lie3. 
 
 the Ai 
 maiued 
 Canatii 
 
 M 
 
 M 
 
 refers 1 
 conten 
 perty ( 
 to the 
 schedu 
 ehowa 
 and an 
 col u mi 
 and b 
 ImiMii 
 passed 
 con ten 
 at Tor 
 " Tor( 
 is not 
 to sho 
 theref 
 it bee 
 North 
 third 
 ferred 
 friend 
 " trail 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND— East of Bathui-st street. 
 
 Mayor BEATY-I understood that they applied to the ^^^ol« l^*^*-*^**^, *^. "^^^ 
 were toCthe same as on the Gmnd Trunk or Great Western The ;f^«*, ^ ^^^^'^f^ 
 a management of the Credit Valley Railway that ^^* ^Itn Tha^ waf tCba^ o^ 
 afford to compete with the Grand Trunk or Great Western. Tha. was the basis on 
 which the money was granted by Toronto and the other municipalities. 
 
 Mr FRRGUSON-I was a little surprised to hear Mr. Cassels make the assertion he 
 did with regard to the title to this line. He drew the conclusion tna. .uu v..rcx.^.«v 
 
 \ 
 
 sale. 
 
4 
 
 Croilit Vtilley 
 )m Petor street 
 
 vaut tbo Credit 
 at could i))a8l- 
 Credit Vivlloy 
 
 Bt < 
 
 voted WJ18 given 
 
 inda of trustees, 
 
 lot do. Tho 
 
 to the value of 
 
 a value of the 
 
 , wc are entitled 
 
 o have this road 
 
 le road will be 
 
 be ia time for 
 
 )y til pouthern 
 
 line. The idea 
 jendent for anj 
 '. rates and con- 
 ag line waa ex- 
 culty now — that 
 re not willing to 
 
 — that the rates 
 
 ea is to get such 
 
 indent, and could 
 
 was the baais on 
 
 the assertion he 
 
 31 
 
 of Cma U wore mt the owam-s of th-i land, bit Ihivt tho property was vested in th«* 
 S(!creb>vry of H-.at«. T.ie tibh, I thiulc, is plainly in the Goverumont of Canada, and it i«i 
 oalT nee ssary to look ao tlie few aoU* of Parliament, anl the soho.lules to thone act.i to 
 H.'i! '.Ms beyond all doubt. A* you are wall acquainted with the utatute* bnaring oti the 
 Hubfeot r shill marely rcifer tj thfitn. The Aot 3 Vic, cap. 16, w.is pvssed in 1840. It 
 waa to authorise certain officers ot Her Majesty to set spart certain lands for military pur- 
 iKMtea. It would apjiear that after that date largo quantities of land wore set apart. By 
 the Act of 1843 those lands wore vestetl in the principal officem of. ordnance. They re 
 mained so vested until 19 Vic, cap. 4 ), w.w passed, revesting them in the Government of 
 Canada. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— Not all of thorn. 
 
 Mr. FERGUSON— Tho descriptions are contained in two schedules. Tlio fir«l 
 refers to cer':ain lots described, and all other lands not described in sohcdule two. The 
 contention is that these lands now spoken of are in schedule two, and became the pro 
 perty of Her Majesty, for the uses of the Province. It will be remarked that tho scheduU- 
 to the Act of 1843 described the lands in question by the word " Toronto " alone. Th« 
 schedule simply namen the place where the property is situated. The second schedule 
 ehowa the lands conveyed or transferred by the Crown to the then Province of Canada 
 and among them tho lands at Toi-onto, consisting of 502 acres, 2 rods and 1 pole, and another 
 colunin deacnl)es the buildings; so that Toronto, not being mentioned at a'l in the first, 
 and b(;ing mentioned in conjunction with 502| acres of land in the second, and the 
 buil.lii g^ some of which are still in existence, there is no doubt whatever that this land 
 passed U) and was the property of the old Province of Canada, unless the property in 
 contention was not a part of that 502i acres of land. As we find no description of land 
 at Toronto in the other schedule, and as we find this large quantity of lanfl opposite 
 " Toronto" on the second schedule, it is difficult to assume that the property in question 
 is not a part of the 502} a3rd^, and the burden is ui)on my bmrned friend (Mr. Cissels) 
 to show that it is not. There is no reasonable doubt that it is, and there is no doubt, 
 therefore, that the property is vested in Canada. The next question is the date when 
 it became part of the property of Canada. We find that the 108 Section of the British 
 North America Act transfers to the Dominion of Canada the properties mentioned in the 
 third schedule of the act, and the words in the third schedule are :- " Property trans 
 ferred by the- Imperial Government and known as Ordnance Property." My learned 
 friend made a remark that this property was not transferred. I say that the word 
 "transferred" has. reference to 19 Victoria. While they were vested in Ordnance they 
 were vested in Her Majesty, in Her Imperial capacity. It will be seen by the recital in 
 that Act 19 Vic, that her Majesty revoked the patents of certain of these officers and trans- 
 fen-ed their duties to the principal Secretary of State and that appears to be the reason why 
 this act was passed vesting a portion of these lands in the Secretaiy of State and the rest in the 
 Province of Canada. The recital shows how the lands are to be used, so that there is no doubt 
 the lands belonged to the Province of Canada then. The 108 Section of the British North 
 America Act and these schedules show beyond doubt, without invoking construction at 
 all, that the title passed to the Dominion of Canada- The conention is that according to 
 the terms of the act 19 Vic. Cap. 45, if there is an agreement or a lease which was made 
 by the principal officers of Ordnance during their time, that should be resj^cted. 
 
 -h 
 
 CM^la 
 
 tie principal officers of Ordnance dunng their time, that should ue resi^ciea. wmm 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— Does that word "agreement" cover an agieement for ■ 
 
22 
 
 Mr. FEllGUSON — It is used as an independent word. I apprehend that all 
 » 'reemeiits or leases of this kind must be respected, but the contentiorx is that there must 
 be an agreement or salo .nade. We contend that nothing of the kind has been shown, that 
 the most that has been shown is that the Northern Railway Company are not trespassers. 
 The reports read bv my learned friend, and referred to by him, from the Ordnance Officers, 
 and presumed to come from the fountain head, do not constitute any agreemeait, sale 
 or lease, or any of those things mentioned in this section of 19 Victoria, Cap. 45. My 
 learned friend asserts that this land is the property of the Northern Railway Company, 
 and that the Cre^lit Valley Railway Company seek to take it away from them. Now, 
 that is not the position of all'airs. All that can be made of what has been shown is thst 
 the Northern Railway Compmy are not trespassers on this land. That they have rig .fc 
 or title to it c:innot be claimed. That being their position, they are simply not tros- 
 passers, and t!iat being the only title they have, it cannot be contended that anything has 
 been taken froui them, or would be taken from them in the event of tlie success of the 
 application of the Credit Valley Railway before this tribunal. It will be observed that 
 Mr. C.issuls, appearing for the Grand Trunk Railway, is now setting up the title of the 
 Northern Railway Company. If attention is called to the evidence adduced in the 
 Chancery suit by him and his client — 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— I do not propose to do that, 
 here as we did not finish our case there. 
 
 T proposi) to 
 
 bring 
 
 our witnesses 
 
 
 Mr. FEROUSON— The evidence given then by the man who is supposed to know 
 most about the Grand Trunk Railway in that connection, was the contrary of that con- 
 tention. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— Who is that ? 
 
 Mr. FERGUSON— Mr. Hickson, who said the Northern Railway were supposed to 
 have some right, and whatever right they had was by the agreement. It was not pre- 
 tended then by the Grand Trunk Railway that the Northern Railway Company had a 
 title at all ; on the contrary they said the Northern Railway had not, but being m 
 possession by that kind of leave, simply avoiding prosecution as trespassers, whatever 
 right they had was merely possessory in connection with the Grand Trunk Railway, so 
 that I submit with all humility, but with high confidence, that on investigation of the 
 matter the conclusion that I draw is the true conclusion, and the only concldsion to be drawn 
 That being so, if the Northern Railway Company have not a title, but are merely in 
 that position, one can readily see why it is they object to have the matter dealt with by 
 the Government who are the owners in fee, and who have all power. In regard to tho 
 particular mode of dealing with the matter of dividing this land amongst the railway 
 companies, I do not pretend to be sufficiently familiar with the works upon the ground 
 to offer an opinion. There are gentlemen present who are more familiar with all those 
 railways, who can do much better in explaining what would be the best way of doing it ; 
 but I stand fast on the position that the Northern Railway Company have no title to the 
 property in question at all—it is entirely the property of the Crown— the Dominion of 
 Canada. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— What in'erest Co you represent 1 
 
•ehend that all 
 hat thei-e niusb 
 ;eu shown, that 
 not trespassers. 
 Inance Officers, 
 agreement, sale 
 
 Cap. 45. My 
 way Company, 
 a them. Now, 
 1 shown is thi»t 
 ;hey have rigib 
 imply not tros- 
 it anything has 
 ! success of the 
 e observed that 
 
 the title of the 
 adduced in tho 
 
 our witnesses 
 
 jposed to know 
 ■y of that con- 
 
 rere supposed to 
 It was not pre- 
 Compan/ had a 
 lot, but being ia 
 .ssera, whatever 
 unk itailway, so 
 stigation of the 
 sion to be drawn 
 ; are merely in 
 er dealt with by 
 [n regard to tho 
 ngst the railway 
 pon the ground 
 • with all those 
 ray of doing it ; 
 ve no title to the 
 the Dominion of 
 
 23 
 
 ■Mr FERGUSON— The commercial interest of the City of Toronto— the Corn 
 K'xchan^e and Board of Trade. Their interest is to hav^ this railway as an independent 
 I Unecomtrintothe city where they have their interests. Whether technically hey 
 ^ w^W h^ve a ricrht to oL any contention before tho Court or no is a question, bat they 
 ' .Tdeeviy interested in having an independent line coming into the city, that reaches So 
 ,' many parts of the country not touched by other railways. 
 
 '^ Sir JOHN MACDONALD— Do T understand you to say that tli«- contention goes 
 
 ; lliis far only that the Northern Railway Company are not trespassers t 
 
 ! Mr. FERGUSON— I think they are not trespassers. 
 
 ^ Sir TOHN MACDONALD— Then do you contend that the Goverament cannot by 
 
 • mv act of theirs make them trespassers, or that the Government are bound to allo«r the 
 ; '>{orthern Railway Company to hold that land for all time without being trespassers { 
 
 I Mr FERGUSON— No. A man may not be a trespasser; he may be there with 
 
 . rail leave and license, but that licence may bo revoked. I do not mean to say that they 
 . bave any right beyond not being liable to be prosecuted for trespass committed 
 " until the license is revoked. Assuming the fullest authority of the Ord- 
 nance Department, they apply for a double track of thirty yards over a 
 , level piece of country where there are no cuts or fills, ^^itto^that ^application ^the^e^ 
 response. 
 
 response. Nothing more is done ; even the proper plans are not fyled. The Northern 
 Railway Company goes in, takes possession, and as there was the response there is no 
 ' trespass They will not be responsiMo for an action of trespass, but the right waich they 
 • <»et does not reach to any future time; it simply saves them from any action. 
 
 i Hon Mr. WELLS— There is one matter to which Mr. Cassels referred in his 
 
 i preliminary remarks, which I thought he should not have alluded to, I refer to the charge 
 
 I of improper conduct on the part of Mr. Liidlaw, in getting certain p:ipers from Mr. 
 
 . OasseU' olllce. I do not think that he should have made any remark of the kind, inas- 
 
 1 much as all the circumstances have been fully explained to him. 
 
 I Mr. CASSELS— So far as the solicitors aro concerned we have not the slightest 
 
 i charge against them, because it was properly explained. 
 
 I Hon. Mr. WELLS— I am nob defending the conduct of the solicitors, but of Mr. 
 
 I Laidlaw. 1 can only say that he never went to Mr. Cassels' offico. 
 
 i 
 
 I Mr. CASSELS— He sent. 
 
 I Hon. Mr. WELLS— No ; he did not send. It was a matter between my partner, 
 
 I Mr. Gordon, and Mr. Cassels, and them alone. 
 
 I Mr. CASSELS— My learnid friend is not corract. Tiie papers were obtained in my 
 
 I absence. 
 
 I Hon Mv. WELLS— Mr. Gordon, assuming that the Credit Valley and thi5 Grand 
 
 1 Trunk were on very friendly t«rms, went to Mr. Cassels' office, and obtained certain 
 
24 
 
 pipers which were published before hr knew that there was any difficulty t^tween tbe tw.v 
 JoTu^iea. As soJn a^ he ascertained that there was a difficulty, he went and mad*^i^ 
 apoJoey to Mr. Cassels. It was a misapprehonsion as to the position of affmrs^ Ibe 
 J^JS: iKoreover, were in no sense confidential. The could have been obtained, with a 
 little trouble, from other quarters, 
 
 Hon, Mr. MACDOUGALL— It was merely a matter of convenience betwee*. 
 Eolicitors. 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS— Mr. Laidlaw was not concerned, directly or indirectly, With the 
 getting of those papers. 
 
 With regard to the question of title, Mr. Ferguson has alluded to the Act of 1846. 
 It will be seen from the preamble that this Statute professes to deal with all the Ord 
 nance lands inthe Province. Those that are embraced in the first schedule are vested in 
 Her Maiesty's Secretary of State. Those that are embraced in the second schedule ar.- 
 vested in Her Majesty for the use of the Province, and amongst those axe 502 acres m thf 
 Oity of Toronto. There has been some misapprehension as to the effect ot that acnedUJe. 
 It ias srpposed by Colonel Coffin, in the memorandum which he submitted to the Minis 
 ter of ihe Interior, in 1875, that the land now in question was not mcltided m th^ 
 schedule. He was evidently misU d by ihe description given in the second column of thr 
 schedule which mentions certain buildings. If you look at the top of the Column, you 
 wUl see that only the buildings are intended to be described whereas in fa^ 50 J acm 
 were vested in Her Majesty. It is clear, therefore, beyond ^1 doubt, that 502 acres, in 
 eluding ail the land at Toronto, were vested at that time in Her Majesty. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALT)~It was decided at that time by Her Majesty's Govern 
 raent that no portion of the Ord. lance lands at Toronto were required for military pur 
 poses. 
 
 Hon Mr WELLS— My learned friend falls back upon what occurred between thw 
 officers of 'the Ordnance Department and the Northern Itailway, but I was surpmed at 
 the weakness of his case. This is the clause on which they rely ; "all sales and agree- 
 ments for sale, and licenses and agreements for license are respected. I say that there 
 has been no sale, no aigument for sale, and no license. He produces a dtocument which 
 purports to be a copy of an order of the Master General of Ordnance, but upoA examina- 
 tiou it appears on its face to be a document relating to the depot ground. It does not 
 affect the 100 feet at all. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— I undei-stood that it included the 100 feet.- ^ 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS— No. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— It includes the strip of 100 feet. The application is made to the 
 Ordnance Board, and the whole application is treated of in these letters, and it w desig- 
 nated as 34 acres. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— As a matter of fact, what is the area of tke depot 
 grounds % 
 
 ■r 
 
 i 
 
m 
 
 between tbe tw«v 
 nt and mad* ai) 
 
 of affairs. The 
 jbtainfcd, with a 
 
 snience betweew 
 
 irectly, With thf 
 
 be Act of 1846. 
 with all the Ord 
 ule are vested in 
 )nd schedule an* 
 I 502 acres in the 
 af that schedule, 
 ited to the Minis 
 included in the 
 nd column of the 
 the column, you 
 ja fact, 502 acrcF 
 at 502 acres, in 
 
 lajesty's Govern 
 for military pur 
 
 rred between th» 
 was suKprieed at 
 11 sales and agree- 
 li sajf that there 
 k dbcument which 
 lit upon examina- 
 md. It does not 
 
 )feet. 
 
 m is made to the 
 I, and it isdesig- 
 
 rea cf tke depot 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND — The area of land between Brock street and Batborst street 
 .was simply about eleven acres, and the balance, therefore, would be the 100 feet up to 
 |l}ueen street. 
 
 Mayor BEATY — The water lots contain 85 acres. 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS — This is an Order-in-Council m re the Northern depot grounds, 
 therefore it applies only to the depot. 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND — The plans were made for the whole, and the application 
 was tor the whole. I remember having bten personally engaged in it. The only 
 - ioubt on the minds of the officers was whether or not it would interfere with the a.rtil- 
 siery power of the old fort: that was with reference to the right of way. 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS — That does not displace my argument. I say that this order ha^ 
 ^^T-eference to the depot ground only. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— There is a letter from Mr. Boulton which shows that t!ie application 
 ffor right of way as well as for depot. 
 
 i Hon. Mr. WELLS— Very true, and I will refer to that presently to show that their 
 
 ■ lipplication was never intended to embrace a strip 100 feet wide, but simply enough ground 
 
 |or an ample double track. But uan anybody say that in all the correspondence and 
 
 Wpei-s produced there is a sale or agreement for sale 1 All the elements of an agi-eement 
 
 are wanting ; the very lands are not stated or set out, and the price had not been ji greed 
 
 ;|ipon and Iihs not to this day been paid or tendered. The letter which they produce from 
 
 the Master of Ordnance was merely an admission that they were not trespassers. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— They merely went in under the statutory power, 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS — Now wiiat was that statutory power ? 
 
 [ "Whenever it shall be liccessary for the Company to occupy any lands belonging to Her 
 iMajesty reservtd for military purposes they shall first apply for and obtain the license or consent of 
 jHer Majisty under the hand and seal of the Goveraor, and only then upon a report to him by the 
 
 military authorities." 
 
 The General Railway Act of 1851 is the Act which the Ordnance authorities refer to 
 in this memorandum. 
 
 Mr. BOULTON — Not at all ; it is our own charter, the statute of 1U49. 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS— TheyenterundertheActof 1851, whichcameinforceinAugustof 
 ithat year. I have pointed out that there was no land marked out. The application for 
 
 i, line ac -OSS the military reserve is " simply for an ample double track of railway." Now 
 hey claim 100 feet. Under what authority do they claim iti They simply claimed for 
 to " ample double track." I say xt is a fraud upon the Department if upon that applica- 
 lion simply for a double track of rail they assume to take more, and rely upon this 
 Authority for all they choose to take after this application. They did not f)le, in the 
 office of the Clerk of the Peace, as required by their charter, i;ntil 1856. That plan 
 
 7^ 
 
26 
 
 .1 ♦• . ^;n.,lP line of railway. Their statute lequires them to fyle » 
 onlyaskH,apparcnly to asm^^^^ ^ ^^^^ of reference wh.eh 
 
 plan m the othce of the Cleik of ^^^^l^^^^ ^^ ^^^^ ,,,,i/of reference, and there is not a 
 
 shall show the measurementB ^./^^^J^^^'^f .°L r.,,..„,, rj. i^ Railway is ooncernjcl they 
 singlereferencetothislOOfeeu.^^ ha^^^^^^ 
 
 have never fyled a plan at '^ll- f J^^^^ ^^f^ produced.) Their charter reciuiren them 
 
 track, and not the one now m question. (1 Ian 1™'J^^",/ . ^ ^,^^,^^,,30 the charter 
 
 to fyle their plan, - ProhiUts tbem f^^om gomg^^^^^^ ^^^.^i^,^^ ,f th. 
 of the Grand T^-unkMway.^^^^^^^^ 
 
 Railway Act of 1 80 1. ■'-^^^"'"^y^^, ."..„„ 1 ^„ tli^ hoo'c^ of this Department to show 
 that report only shows that -^.^ -"g,^^.^^f^f ^^^ th s pi-oper ty But Col. Coffin make, 
 that the Northern hax^eve^^pa^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ , N. ^Co 
 
 anothei-report m 1870. Taere had^e ^^ ^^1^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^.^^^^ ^ ^^^^^ Land 
 
 heG. W.R.,thetT i.^-^^^^^^^^^ and Col. Coffin reports that this land, under the 
 ':^:ZnTi:t^^y^E^^ the BritlhNorth America Act, is under 
 
 the control of the Dommiom. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD-That was in 1875. Was any action of the Govera- 
 ■ment based on it ? , a ^ r 1 aRi\ 
 
 than W deal -* ''>--- P^^l^be^^^^^^^^^ 4'' "^ *'^ 
 
 "^Tv,f G^I Trimk in wWch Mr. Blake tor k part? this same point was raised by the 
 against the Grand iiunK m wmcn xx . acciuired a statutory title under tho Act 
 
 been made. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD-I sat with Mr. Campbell in that case. 
 
 Western was served ten days ago, the ^f ^^^^J^jf J, ™,^ti™^ That w^s 
 
 map .^^''jXV -uX «U tw"^ not SdrtnoticI, I would liL to know what 
 
 ideal 
 
m 
 
 them to fyle » 
 iference which 
 
 there is not a 
 concorajcl they 
 ; this to be their 
 
 reciiure.H them 
 ISO the charter 
 •ovisious of tho 
 fill iul 872. But 
 tinent to show 
 [. Coffin makes 
 the N. R. Co.. 
 Ordnance Land 
 and, under the 
 a Act, is under 
 
 27 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— How many crossings are there I 
 
 /' Hon, Mr WELLS— I do not know liow many ; ten I supiij-tt-. The number does* • 
 ' not increase the difficulty at all. 
 
 ■ Sir JOHN MACDONALD — It does so far as safety to hum.iu life is concerned. 
 
 Hon. Mr. "WELLS — '.""he crossing must be conceded soma way or other : it is only a 
 question of how to crods. It is of very great consequence to us now to have this question 
 fettled at the earliest po.ssible moment. Our cro.^aing after we leave the round houso is 
 K,t a point which will bo less troublesome andjesj dangerous than any other — that is upon 
 'ntlie road wiiich leads to the water works. If wo cro.ss the tracks there, it will be at a 
 yjint where they must always leave an open space— that is they do not collect their cara 
 there. 
 
 of the Govern- 
 
 L the Act of 1860 
 the Act of 1850 
 1 it was revested 
 tory title. That 
 re was intended 
 as they stood on 
 own, and as they 
 ly by the express 
 e of the Northern 
 was raised by the 
 ;le under tho Act 
 J Court sustained 
 OQ that occasion, 
 would never have 
 
 the south. He ia 
 he Great Western 
 ;o take that route. 
 i last session. So 
 My learned friend 
 tice to the Great 
 "riday or Saturday 
 lesday. That was 
 ne. They had the 
 rly defined all the 
 like to know what 
 f an under creasing 
 liall be made. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— You do not slow off there. 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS — Oh yes. We must go very slowly tliore. 
 
 All tho crossings 
 
 *re sidings 
 
 It is perfectly clear therefore that the land in question — at all events west of Bath- 
 ^irst Street is within the control ot the Dominion Government. They threaten us with 
 protracted litigation if a patent or license of occupation is granted to us, I have only to 
 Say upon that point that we arv3 perfectly willing to take a patent or license at our own 
 risk and fight the question out, if necessary, before the courts. 
 
 Mr. CAMERON— I approach the discussion of this subject with very great difficulty 
 or the want of proper time for deliberation. Appearing on behalf of the Northern Rail- 
 way the first intimation they had of this meeting was from a briet telegram from Mr. 
 fcrudeau, received on Thursday of last week, which, of course, did not state in detail the 
 Inature of the application or anything further than the Railway Committee would coi- 
 fiiider the application of the Credit Valley Railway for crossings to-day. No notice 
 |was received until Monday afternoon when we received a copy of the propose! applici 
 tion and plan. Having received the notice from Mr. Trudeau, Mi-. Cumberland had a 
 consultation with me upon it on Saturday evening last, but at that time we were in the 
 dark as to what the Credit Valley wanted, having at that time no document from them. 
 §It was. only this morning, for the first time, I saw the proposal of the Credit Valley Com- 
 ipany, and since Monday, when Mr. Cumberland received it, he had no sufficient oppor- 
 Itunity of investigating the matter or calling the Board together or of taking such acdon 
 jlaa is necessary to be taken. I do not propose, however, to insist upon any technical 
 fiquestion as to the right of this tribunal to consider this matter if they think themselves 
 Iseized of it. But, as a matter of courae, if the Railway Committee were not seized of it, 
 lit would, no doubt, lead to the making of an order that would only cause subse- 
 iquent litigation and difficulty, so that if the proceedings are irregular it would be futile to 
 loccupy time in discussing the matter. As to the application to the Minister of the In- 
 perior, addressed to him in his sovereign administrative power, it would probably require 
 |no notice, bub it is an abstract question which, to be properly discussed, requires a good 
 rdeal of tiuae fur preparation it is so complicated, I would, however, call tho attention of 
 the Minister of the Interior to this position :— whether he is prepared in that capacity to 
 
N 
 :-:■■! 
 
 28 
 
 take upon himself to determine what undoubtedly is a difficult question of law involving 
 a qestion of title to property 1 Enough has already been said to show that there are 
 grave doubts and serious disputes between the Railway Companies as to the nature of the 
 title which the Northern and Grand Trunk Railways have to this hundred feet strip of 
 land from Bathurst to Queen Street. The Noi-them contend that they have a title whiph 
 has been sanctioned by acts of Parliament and officers of the Government, and as to 
 which the most that can be said is that they may have a lien upon 
 it to the extent of the purchase money. Then the question arises whether 
 it belongs to the Imj^erial or to the Dominion Government. But so far aa the land is 
 concerned the Northern Railway contend that they are possessed of it by a title which 
 subsequent legislation and various procceedings have made indefeasible. The Grand 
 Trunk Railway Co. come under them and say they also have a right, and the Credit Valley 
 now comes in and says " You have no right to this land ; you are merely squatters." ] 
 would ask the Minister of the Interior whether he considers it consistent with his func- 
 tions and jurisdiction, when there is a grave dispute of that kind between rival Com- 
 panies as to the question of title to property, to put himself in the place of the recognized 
 tribun;ils of the country and say, "The Crown owns this land ; I will take the property 
 away from the Companies who claim it, and are in possession of it, and give it to another 
 Company." I question whether it is a wise exercise of discretion on the part of the Gov- 
 ment. I should say that it was an improper exercise of power in a matter that should be 
 left to be settled by the ordinary tribunals of the country. At the same time, on behalf of 
 the Northern Railway I wish most emphatically to disclaim any intention to interfere 
 with or to impede the entrance of the Ci'edit Valley Railway into Toronto, or the mos* 
 liberal use that can be possibly gi'anted of this piece of land, or any other property they 
 may require for the necessary purposes of their road. I feel we can make great complaint, 
 with very good ground, of the manner in which the Northern Railway has been treated 
 in regard to this matter. An amicable discussion went on between the Credit Valley 
 Company and the Northern Company with reference to this question for some time. 
 Application was made on the 14th of April on behalf of the Credi'; Valley Company, by 
 Mr. Laidlaw, by letter to the Northern Railway Company, asking the Board to meet a 
 depuation from the Credit Valley Company. An appointment was made, and on the lOth 
 of April a deputation, consisting of Mi'. Wells, solicitor, Mr. Campbell, Vice-President, 
 Mr. Baillie, engineer, and Mr. Laidlaw, attended before the Northern Railway Board. 
 There was then a full examination of plans made, and the following minute was unani- 
 mously agreed upon by the Northern Railway Board (here Mr. Camoron'read the minute.) 
 
 The thing rested for some time. Tliere was nothing more heard from the Credit 
 Valley Railway. On the 6th ot May, Mr. Campbell, the Vice-President of the company, 
 when spoken to about it, expressed sui-prise that Mr. Wells had not communicated with 
 the Northern Railway in accordance with the understanding arrived at on thel9thol 
 April. Then on the 22nd of May, a hitter was written by the Northern Company to Mr. 
 Laidlaw, ctilling his attention to this minute of the 19th of April, and expressing & 
 desire to have that arrangement carried out. To that Mr. Laidlaw, on the 30th of May, 
 replied (here he read Mr. Laidlaws letter.) 
 
 « 
 
 Now what does this mean 1 Does Mr. Laidlaw mean to assert that the executive 
 administration of the Company could not make an arranijement that would bind that Com- 
 pany ? Does he mean to say that whenever the executive of the company changes thai 
 their following executive are not bound by what their predecessoi's may have done ^ 
 Surely he could net have attempted to make such an unreasonable proposition as that ! 
 
2!> 
 
 Hon. Mr, WELLS — He does not say that they could not; he simply refuses to bind the 
 hands of his successors. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUG ALL — If my learned fiiend is going to enter into an argument of 
 that kind, I can settle the whole difficulty in a minute. I do not think it is within the 
 power or purview of the Railway Committee to determine questions of etiquette or to 
 consider thrt conduct of the parties in this matter, but I hold in my hand a letter which 
 will explain the reason why application was made to t> Railway Committee of the 
 Privy Council. On the 22nd of April, four days after this proposed arrangement by the 
 Northern Railway with the Credit Valley Railway, wo received a letter from Mr. Bell, 
 the Solicitor of the Grand Trunk Railway, in which the following occurs : 
 
 " These lands are ours, and the Northern Railway have no claim to tham in any 
 -' form. One cannot therefore help admiring the generosity of that Company in giving 
 " your people liberty to use that which is n >b theirs. * * * This I can say, that if 
 " you attempt to take property claimed by us, we will take steps to protect our rights." 
 
 It is not surprising therefore, that Mr. Laidlaw after this threat, took the course 
 which he has pursued. • 
 
 Mr. CAMERON — That letter was never received or seen by us. That is the first 
 that we have heard of it. 
 
 Mr, BOULTON — In answer to Mr. Macdougall I may state that at that meeting with 
 the Credit Valley people, it was distinctly told them that it would be necessary to obtain the 
 consent of the Grand Trunk Railway as well. It was said that the negotiation was going on 
 and had not ceased. We said that the litigation had not ended, and the trouble between the 
 Grand Trunk and the Northern had not ceased ; we were negotiating for the settlement 
 which was afterwards accomplished. 
 
 Mr. CAMERON — What I was going ou to say is, so far as the Northern Railway 
 Company are concerned, they have been desirous and anxious to afford to the Credit 
 Valley every facility for entrance into Toronto from the beginning ; that there was no 
 disagreement between them, and this present adverse proceeding when it was introduced 
 took them very much by surprise, and the tone in which it has been carried on ever since 
 has taken them still more by surprise. The Credit Valley while they have appealed to 
 this Court and to theii' rights, have not been content with that, but have been endeavoring 
 to manufacture public opinion by carrying qu an active and continuous correspondence in 
 the newspapers from one end of the countw to the other, and have been inciting different 
 boards and municipal councils to pass resolutions. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL — ^There is no evidence of that before us ! 
 
 Mr. CAMERON — There is this evidence — continuous correspondence in the news- 
 papers, and all these numerous telegrams, and resolutions of municipal councils have been 
 passed at the instigation of Mr. Laidlaw. 
 
 Hon. Mr MACDOUGALL— Of «omebody perhaps. 
 
30 
 
 Mr. CAMERON— I think my hon.fiioud,wlio knows Mr. Laidlaw's energy so well, 
 will! not attempt to question liis connection with it. Then Mr. Laidlaw goes into the 
 controversy himself by a very violently cxj)ressed letter, imblisted yesterday— most in- 
 temperate and violent in its tone. T am sorry to say that it is inaccurate also. He says : 
 
 •' The Credit Valley Railway does not want to owe the title of their right of way to 
 •' deep water in the Toronto Harbor to the grace of the Northern Railway Company's 
 " manager, or his half dozen bondholders." Now I think that this is uncalled for. He adds: 
 
 " Neither does the Credit Valley Railway Company want to pay the Northern Rail 
 "way job prices for fictitious expenditure in moving a few thousand cubic yards of 
 •' earth !" 
 
 I think that one of the gentlemen brought down here by the Credit Valley Com 
 
 pany Mr. Frank Slianly — will be able to testify that it is not a fictitious price, but a 
 
 honajule price paid to him of $60,000 or $70,000, for work which was done by him, the 
 biuefit of which Mr. Laidlaw wishes to get for nothing. But I thought it necessary at 
 the beginning to di^laim any feeling, on the part of the officers of the Northern Railway 
 of a hostile character towards the Credit Valley Railway, and I think it has been amply 
 shown thUt we have met them in a most friendly way, and, in fact that the intervention 
 of this tribunal is almost unnecessary, because if the matter is left to the negotiation of 
 the separate parties, the Credit Valley Railway will get all the advantages they want, just 
 iis the Toronto, Grey A Bruce Railway did, without difficulty. But they come here 
 standing on their strict right'! As Mr. Laidlaw says they want to owe the Northern 
 Railway or other companies nothing. They want no grace or favor. They iiegotiated 
 until they found that we were willing to meet them amicably, and then they say : " We 
 will demand our rights at the point of the bayonet." I say the Minister of the Interior 
 would not be justified in taking into his hands the sword of justice and saying : " I will 
 constitute myself the Court, and decide this intricate question of law as to whether these 
 companies have any right to these lands and give ordei-s to compel them to take up their 
 tracks." How is the Minister of the Interior going to carry out an order of that kind, if 
 he makes it 1 What is the use of empty thunder % 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS — Suppose the Minister of the Interior issues a patent, what then 'l 
 
 Mr. CAMERON — That would be subject to appeal to the Courts to decide its vali- 
 dity. No possible proceeding can be taken by issuing a patent or license of occupation, 
 the validity of which cannot be brought into the Courts. I say, therefore, that the 
 Minister of the Interior, under the circumstances, ought not to take a course which will 
 result in no beneficial advantage to any of the parties concerned, more particularly when 
 the correspondence that I have read shows that the other interests are quite willing to 
 negotiate amicably and give all that the Credit Valley Railway wants. As to the track 
 from Queen Street to Bathurst Street, it is identically the track which Mr. Cumberland 
 laid down for the Credit Valley Railway, so that there is no dispute between them and 
 the Northern whatever, as to the mode by which the Credit Valley Railroad shall come 
 into Toronto, west of Bathurst Street. We are willing to give them all they want to 
 that point, but when they come here and say we have no right there ; when they attack 
 our title and say : ** We will not take anything from you, but we will insist that you 
 have no right whatever there," we say they are doing what is not necessaiy ; that they 
 
31 
 
 are gratuitously inviting litigation and troub'e, and it is not that coiiise which tho (io\ ■ 
 (smment ought to favor eitlier by license of occiiinttion or grant. We are willing to "iv*- 
 them juHt as good a title aa we have, and when they get there with their track, they'^will 
 have just the seme right as ourselves. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGA LI^— Will you bind yourselves not to (ak.- us hit., the Court of 
 ('hancery the same aa yon did the Grand Trunk liailwav 1 
 
 If 
 
 Mr. CAMERON— It was when they wanted more than we gave them tliat tl_ 
 litigation aro.se. _ A. great u?il has been said in reference to the Ordnance Department. 
 I do feel that it is almost a waste of time to go into a lengthened argument as to the 
 title of the Northern Railway to this piece of land when there is the fact that there is no 
 dispute between the Credit Valley and the Northern on that point. If it is to be dis- 
 cussed, however, I will reply to what some gentlemen, who have spoken have said by 
 saying that the Railway Act of 1851, which Mr. Wells has <iuoted, has no application 
 whatever to this railway, because the preamble says that it applies only to railways 
 afterwards incorporated. The Northern was charteied in 1849 and the Act was passed 
 in 1851, and you can dismiss that from consideration. The right of the company to takti 
 that rests under 12 Victoria, section 10, which expres.sly gives them power to enter upon 
 the lands of the Queen as well as other lartds, 
 
 Hon. Mr. McDOUGALL^— Without permission from the Government ? 
 
 Mr. CAMERON — Certainly, there is no limitation whatever to it. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— Does that bind the Queen i 
 
 Mr. CASSELS — There is a reservation in the Ordnance Act. 
 
 Mr. CAMERON— I suppose that the Crown will not now say that what the Crown 
 ilid 20 years ago and acquiesced in is to go for nothing? The Act 7 Victoria, cap. 43, 
 specially reserves to railways the right to go in there. As to the argument of Mr. Fergu- 
 son, it amounts to this : That the Northern have no title there whatever except a mere 
 possessory title, liable to be deteimiued at any moment by a notice to quit. That, I 
 submit, is not a correct view. Mr. Coffin's opinion that has been quoted two or three 
 times is based upon a misconception of the facts. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD — The last report is siuipl y a contidential one upon which 
 no Order-in-Council was passed, and it ought not to be taken into account at all. 
 
 Mr. CAMERON — There was, amongst the documents in Col. Coffin's office, a lettei- 
 from Capt. Gallway, dated, " Montreal, 3rd December, 185G," recognising and sanction- 
 ing an application of the Northern Railway for this very piece of land described in then- 
 application as the land they wanted, embracing altogether thirty-four acres, and also the 
 right of way up through Queen street. That was seriously recognized by the Master 
 General of the Board of Ordnance, on the 2nd of Feby., 1852. I say that our application 
 in 1851 ; the recognition of it in 1852, and the subsequent sui-vey of the land by the 
 authority of the officers of the Ordnance Department, made a complete title to that land. 
 The original of this plan was produced, and Mr. Fleming proved in his evidence in the 
 
8'-' 
 
 suit between the Northern and the (iraud Trunk, that, aotin? aa surveyor for the Board 
 of Ordnance, he had laid out the Onlnanca reserve in the City of Toronto, excluding 
 from it this station reserve, and the hundred feet strip up Queen street ; and he had 
 prepared and delivered to the Or.liiance Authorities as their offioer, a plan excludinsr 
 from their property this very strip of land. 
 
 Hon. Mr. AIKINS—What is the date of the map ? 
 
 Mr. CAMERON— June, 1852. Mr. Fleming gave evidence in the Chancery suit 
 m December last, showing that 100 feet ot laml was taken by the Northern Railway • 
 that It v.'a3 surveyed by him euly in 1852 ; that it was enclosed iu fences ; that it was' 
 marked by a stone monument; that a plan of it was delivered to Mr. Walkem, Surveyor 
 of the Ordnance Department, Mr. Fleming having done his work under instructions 
 ^lor the Ordnance Department and not for the RaUway Company. It has been 
 ecognized throughout, by subsequent legislation and by Orders - in - Coimcil 
 all showmg that they are m occupation by some authority. Can it be said then that 
 they are mere squatters ? I do not think it is really worth whUe discussing that question 
 unless the Credit Valley Company wish to take us by the throat and s.ay : " You are 
 mere squatters. We offer them a right of way ; they say it is what thev require, and 
 yet afterwards they come forward and make a demand for this very same iprivilego from 
 the Government I say that the Government have no right under the circumstances to 
 step ui and say that they will take that property from us. I think instead of putting us 
 all to great expense, and occupying the time of the Government in discussing this ques- 
 tion. It Mr Laidlaw, and the officers of the Credit Valley Railway, had met the officers of 
 the other two companies, the matter could have been arranged amicably. I do not think 
 
 wLVfl^r^ ''^^'.'rl*'''^^''^^*^^''""^ ^'•^"^ ^«^«1""^' t>'«ir terminus. 
 
 When they come east of Bathurst street another question arises. We have suggested to 
 them how they can reach that point. We have shown them a plan by which they can come 
 down there without mterfering with our rights, or causing anybody inconvenience. This 
 plan, which I now produce, shows the road as it is at prLnt. If they come in by the 
 3t?'frT'''^^r'"?TM*"«' all our tracks. What we propose is that the two 
 dr« ?/*^« errand Trunk Railway should be moved a little northward, which could be 
 inv j; ?? cramping them, and that the track of the Great Western Railway should be 
 moved northward and the track of the Credit Valley Railway could be laid south of aS 
 the others In that way the Grand Trunk Railway would have two tracks, the Grea 
 Western Rail way one, and the Credit Valley Railway one, and the Northern would not be 
 interfered with. What the Credit Valley RaUway proposes to do now is to tear down our 
 Sr ourpo'p'e™ "^'' '" ^"'^' ""'"' '''' tracks, and take some sixteen or twent^frt 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS— That is vacant ground. 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND ^What we contend is that the reserve, as it is now constructed 
 thlt V^7''^ Mr. Shanly $70,000 to improve, is sufficient iot on y tlrre vethe 
 
 SlvTo takf f. ^t would be the most economical course for the Credit Valley 
 ^^kT^and lavin! ll^ '^^T^^'l ""' '^ ^^ ^^^'^« °^«^- *^« ^^^^^e existing 
 N^ the CriTvlll.v P -^ ^^^ "^^^'^ .^ ^"^^ ^^^^^ *rack is at present 
 JSow the Credit Valley Railway Company under advice that cannot be profes^iona! pro^ 
 
B3 
 
 tho Board 
 excluding 
 id he had 
 excluding 
 
 icoiy suit 
 Railway ; 
 it it was 
 
 Surveyor 
 structions 
 has been 
 - Council 
 /hen that 
 / question 
 
 You are 
 uire, and 
 ego from 
 tances to 
 Litting us 
 ihis ques- 
 )fl3cers of 
 LOt think 
 terminus, 
 nested to 
 can come 
 !e. This 
 1 by the 
 
 the two 
 could be 
 ihould be 
 th of all 
 lie Great 
 !d not be 
 lown our 
 inty feet 
 
 itructed, 
 eive the 
 ve some 
 ; Valley 
 existing 
 present, 
 iiai, pro- 
 
 pose to take sixteen feet off our yard. What does that mean I Of course they will have 
 to pay a very much more considerable sum as their proportion of what we paid to Mr. 
 Shanly. They v,'ill also have to pay for the removal of our fences, for pulling down our 
 buildings and reconstructing them somewhere, and what will be the result ] There will 
 be some twenty feet of waste land left. It really looks like a wilful desire to intrude upon 
 property without any reason for it, inasmuch as after four tracks are put in there will be 
 twenty feet of waste land between the present track of the Grand Trunk and the others 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS— Will my learned friend undertake to say that the Grand Trunk 
 Railway and Great Western Railway will shift their tracks? 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND— If you are making a proposition to the Railway Committee 
 make it with as much interest to yourselves and as little injury to your neighbors as 
 possible. 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS — You are assuming that we have the right to apply to the Railway 
 Committee of the Privy Council to compel the.^e railways to mov^ their tracks. The 
 Committee have no such power. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS-*-Mr. Hickson is willing to do all he can to assist the Credit Valley 
 Railway, but the managers of the Grand Trunk Railway and Great Western Railway are 
 way, and all we can do is to let it stand over for a month. 
 
 Mr. CAMERON — The very plan they bring here is dated 17th of June, and on two 
 or three days' notice they call upon these companies while their managers are away in 
 New York, to appear before the Railway Committee of the Privy Council. No time is 
 given to study up the question, and in the meantime they endeavor to rouse public opinion 
 against the Grand Trunk Railway and the Northern, and hold them up to odium as being 
 the bugbej,r3 who are endeavoring to crush out this innocent young Company, of whom 
 Mr. Laidlaw is the fighting representative, and expose them to public hatred. They come 
 here now and say " we will take as a matter of right from you what you were willing to 
 concede. We will not take it as a matter of favor or arrangement from you. We will 
 have nothing to tlumk you for." We are warranted in asserting that this tribunal has no 
 jurisdiction over the question. The Railway Committee of the Privy Council can interfere 
 only where the Companies are unable to come to terms. The statute requires that a pro- 
 position shall be m ide by one Company to another, and it is only when that proposition 
 is rejected that the Privy Council steps in. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER— What clause of the Act is that in? 
 
 Mr. CAMERON — I forget the number. It is the clause giving the jurisdiction tc 
 the Railway Committee of the Privy Council. 
 
 Sir JOHN MA.CDON'ALD — It has been assumed on both sides that the Railway 
 Cotnmittse have that power. I should like to hear further on that point. 
 
 Mr. CAMERON— So far aa the mere crossing goes they have not taken the necessary 
 proceedings to bring us here properly. They have not given us time to investigate the 
 matter, and what they ask is a great deal more than crossings or intersections. They ask, in 
 
34 
 
 fact, for the giving of tlie right of way, and so far lis the Railway Committee are concerned 
 it seems to me altogether premature to discuss it before them. Until it 'ut settled how thf 
 Credit Valley Company are to get down to the point whei-e they require to cross these 
 different trucks it is impossible to discuss the (picstion as to how they should 
 cross them. No engineer can say where they are going to cross until it is seen 
 on which side they are coming. I do not think theie will bo any occasion 
 for litigation if the Credit Valley Railway Company will only approach the question in 
 a candid or stiaightforwai d way instead of the violent and abusive manner they have 
 chosen to adopt, assailing the companies which are disposed to bo friendly to them, and 
 treating them hostilely and endeavoring to convince the public that the Grand Trunk Rail- 
 way and tVe Northern Railroad Companies are endeavoring to keep them out of Toronto. 
 We say that the attacks upon the Northern Railroad Company managemert on the part 
 of the Credit Valley Railway are utterly unwarranted and our silence has oiily been caus- 
 ed by the fact that when there was an appeal to this quasi judicial tribunal, they thought 
 it improper to appea' to the public press on this matter until this tribunal had disposed of 
 it in one way or the other. Adverting to the legal question, Mr. Ferguson argued that 
 this Ordnance Act 19 vie, showed that the land in question was embraced in the 602 
 acres covered by thrf second schedule of the Act. I think the proi^er construction of the 
 second clause of the act shews — 
 
 Mr, FERGUSON — I assumed that the place we are speaking of now was part of 
 tlie 502 acres, and tlie burthen of proof is on you to show that it is not 
 
 Mr, CAMERON — I say that assumption is unwarranted and inconsistent with the 
 various clauses of the Act — more particularly with section two, which defines the lands 
 which are embraced in schedule one, which we say, include these lands now in question, 
 
 Mr. FERGUSON— The lands are in schedule two. 
 
 Mr. CAMERON — I say the documents which I have referred to cannot be con- 
 strued as amounting to anything less than an agreement. It is true, there may be no fixed 
 rental ; on the contrary, I presume there would be the interest on the money until the 
 principal was paid. The Board of Oi-dnance fixed the value per acre of the land at £200, 
 and throughout they have treated the company as being bound to pay the amount of the 
 purchase money. Something was said by my learned friend, Mr. Beaty, appearing 
 here as Mayor of Toronto, in reference to the rights of the company. I would refer him 
 on this point to the opinion which the city procured from eminent legal authoritv, Mr. 
 Bethune. 
 
 They have been advised by their own counsel that the Northern Railway 
 Company have a title to the land. Then, in reference to the award of the Court of 
 Chancery that has been spoken of, it A^as admitted by all to be utterly void, but, if any 
 other authority on that point is required, I would refer again to Mr. Bethune's opinion. 
 
 The city has also been advised by him that the award on which they lay stress is 
 void, and also that the Northern Railway Company have a perfect title to this land, 
 subject to the payment of valuable considemtion therefor. 
 
 Mayor BEATY— Why do you not pay it, or arbitrate ? 
 
3& 
 
 concerneil 
 d how th»» 
 TOSS these 
 ly should 
 it is seen 
 occasion 
 iiestion in 
 they have 
 ;hein, and 
 link Rail- 
 ' Toronto. 
 I the part 
 )een oaus- 
 ^ thought 
 isposed of 
 2;ued that 
 • the 502 
 [>n of the 
 
 a part of 
 
 with the 
 he lands 
 ij[ueatioD. 
 
 t be con- 
 I no fixed 
 intil the 
 at £200, 
 tit of the 
 ppearing 
 efer him 
 itv, Mr, 
 
 Railway 
 Dourt of 
 ', if any 
 opinion. 
 
 stress is 
 lis land, 
 
 Mr. CAMERON — You have to show your right to it. We are perfectly willing, 
 when the right time comes, to pay the right person. The (Jity of Toronto have not 
 Hhown that they are tho parties. Then, in reference to Mr. IlickHon's evlthnioe in the 
 Chancery suit, it is quite evident that what he meant by tho word •' own " wa« owning 
 a title in fee simple. 
 
 The whole decision in the suit merely an -nmted to what would bo a non-suit in an 
 action for an ejectment; that tli) Nort i uii Kailroal (J» npauy as against tho defondintH, 
 proved no title, therefore the decree was nothing b it a t<<chuical form of declaring that the 
 plaintiff bad not prov.i i a title as against the defeuliit. Mr. Hickson was not in a 
 position to swuar wiiatiier they had a title or not. As far as the Court was concerned, it 
 simply said : " We will not give judgment for the plaintiiT, beoauHe as against the 
 defendants we think they are not entitled to it." For those reasons I would submit to* 
 thii hoaor.ible body, in the first place, they are not seized of any jurisdiction that would 
 make an effective order in this matter ; and in the second place, the circumstances of the 
 case are su ih that they ought not now to interfere. There is no occasion for invoking 
 their aufcliirity, even if they have it, and as far as the Northern Railway Company are 
 concerned, we are willing and a ixious to make any and every reasonable arrangement, 
 and I defy my friends on tho opp isite side to show one tittle of evidence to prove that the 
 Northern Railroad Company have endeavored directly or indirectly to throw any obstacle 
 in the way of the Credit Valley Railroad Company obtaining the fre est possible access 
 to the City of Toronto. If left to ourselves, we would assist them in every way to got 
 into the city, and I presume it would be the same with the Grand Trunk Railroad, 
 though I do not sjieak for them. This attempt to get up an excitement against the other 
 railways is entirely unnecMHiry. If they stand on their strictly legal rights, I contend 
 that this tribunal has n > ri ^ht to interfere with us. If they make an or In* it will simply 
 be the precursor of li.i^itioi. I do not suppose that the Credit Valley R lilroad Company 
 want to embark in litigation with rival companies. What they want is to get into the 
 City of Toronto. Taey can lot accomplish that by hjsMle proceedings. I submit, there- 
 fore, that np.)n this applioati m no order should be made by this tribunal, and that the 
 result of that will certainly not in any way injure the cause which the Credit Valley 
 Railroad Company profess to have at heart — that ia to get access by a convenient and 
 proper mode to whatever point they desire to reach in the City of Toronto. 
 
 Mr. BOULTON — 1 just wish to make one remark with reference to the claim of the 
 Northern Railway to having a statutory title to the property. I think that there can be 
 no question when you- look at the Order-in-Council that it does give us a statutory title, 
 and t'uat it was so intended, because if it was not so, what was the necessity or meaning 
 of putting in this provision reserving to the Governor-in-Council control over the station 
 grounds 1 If they owneci the property they had full control over it, and putting in this 
 limitation shows clearly that they gave it to the company, and intended to give it to 
 them, and the boist i>roof of it is that at the time this arrangement was made the com- 
 pany were in 6xtre>nia. Tx-iy were nob in a running condition, they had to borrow a 
 large sum of money to put the road in order. This reservation was deliberately put in 
 thia Order-in-Council be3 uise they were giving this very laud to the company. We 
 were not in a position, an 1 could not have been in a position to pay for it at that time, 
 and the Government had no intention of calling upon us to pay for it. The reservation 
 was simply put in, as Mr. Cassels mentioned at the opening of the case, to provide for 
 negotiations which had been going on for several years past between the three companies 
 
36 
 
 — the Grand Trunk, the Great Western and the Northen Railway — with regard to 
 their entrance into the city. It is quite clear that the proper consideration of the reserva- 
 tion is that it was intended to apply to the roads existing at that time, because if it was 
 not «o intended it would have been worded in a very different way. You will see that 
 it specifies "with the other railways in the city." At that time other only other railways 
 in the city were the Grand Trunk Railway and the Great Western Railway. If it was 
 intended otherwise it would have been/'proper connections with other provincial railways." 
 [ do not think that any person reading those words can come to any other conclusion than 
 that at which we have anived. T am perfectly satisfied that when this Order-in 
 Council was passed it was the deliberate intention of the Government, because there was 
 a sum of money provided out of which we were to pay our 
 liabilities. If it had been contemplated ' or intended for a moment 
 lihat we should pay for this land there would have been a provision 
 in the Order-in-Council of 1860 to meet the payment of this very property, but there is 
 no such provision at all. The land is revested in us and the lien of the Government con- 
 tinued over the whole property for their previous advances. If the money was coming 
 to the Government at that time it would have been provided for — it would have been 
 added to the other lien, but it was deliberately intended that the land should not be paid 
 fo ', and I say that it would have been a deliberate fraud on the bondhqlders who 
 advanced the money at that time, if it had ever been contemplaf/d for a moment that the 
 Company would have been called upon to pay for that land. Tiie bondholders advanced 
 the money on the faith that this property belonged to the Company, and I say it would have 
 been a monstrous injustice, and a gross breach of faith if the Government had held that 
 the Company were bound to pay for that property. The people in England supposed, 
 and rightly supposed, that it was the property of the Company, and that it was the in- 
 tention of the Government to regard it in that light. But the Act of 1875 at any rate 
 even supposing that it applied to existing railways, repeals that Order-in-Council. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL— I have only two orthree words to say with reference to 
 the last poi"t that Mr. Boulton has made. It seems he takes this opportunity of disposing of 
 a question vfith which we have nothing to do. Speaking on behalf of the Credit Vallev 
 Railway Company I may say that we are not disposed to deal with this (luestion at all" 
 whether the Northem Railway Company are to pay the Government or net. ' 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND— You would have to pay your share of it in the end, and vou 
 are only making it more costly for yourselves. 
 
 • 
 
 HonJMr. MACDOUGALL— Both in the beginning, middle, and end of his speech, Mr. 
 Cameron laid great stress upon those newspaper articles for which we are not responsible 
 That IS another forum which is open to every subject in the country'if he choose, and the 
 learned gentlemen could have gone into it themselves i'f they had chosen to do so. The 
 whole question is whether we were driven to come here, and, being here, whether the 
 Government has the power to answer our claim and. to give us what we demand. Upon 
 that point we say that we were driven to come here. In the first place we were negotia- 
 ting with the Northern Railway Company for the privilege of getting down to Bathurst 
 street. We thought they had possession, and had therefore the power to permit us 
 amicably to occupy a portion of this hundred feet. Certain negotiations took place : cer- 
 tain members of the Credit Valley Railway Board discussed the matter with the Northern 
 hallway Company s Board. Nothing was agreed upon finally. Then, as I pointed out. four 
 
37 
 
 days afterwards came this threat from the solijitor of the Grand Trunk Railway, of legal 
 proceedings — this warning that they were pi'etending to own what belonged to the Grand 
 Trunk Railway ; that their grants or privileges would go for nothing, and tor us to have 
 a care what we were doing. Of course that stayed our hands, and we began to consider 
 our rights. It must be borne in mind, since there is an argument as to our good faith and 
 honesty of intention, that one condition of the Northern Railway Company was that we 
 were to bargain not to interfere with the station grounds. They foresaw we had a right 
 and might be driven to exercise that right to cross the station grounds, and it was to be a 
 condition of this amicable arrangement that we should agree not to interfere with that 
 slice of ground which it might be necessaiy for us to take. We were to make an arrange- 
 ment with the Grand Trunk Railway. When Av - go to the Grand Trunk Railway in 
 pursuance of that suggestion, the Grand Trunk Railway Manager tells us that he is very 
 amicable, very friendly, and anxious to let us in, but in order to avail ourselves 
 of his kindness we must agree not to enter into arrangements for traffic that would com- 
 pete with his line. He wishes to put us under arrangements that would practically defeat 
 the very object of our existence ; theiefore having been squeezed by the Northern Rail- 
 way Company to go to the Grand Trunk Railway Company, and having been squeezed by 
 the Grand Trunk Railway to bind ourselves by certain conditions which were impossible 
 we were out of court altogether and were driven to see what our rights were, wh it the 
 public right was, and what tribunal could exercise that right in our favor. We c ime to 
 the conclusion that the title or right of the Grand Trunk Railway and the Northern Rail- 
 way Company to that hundred feet was merely a possessory title — that they were merely 
 squattera. They can produce no title except private correspondence found in the archives 
 of the country. I think it is quite open to argument that they had no power to enter 
 upon these lands ; that they were not lands vested in Her Majesty in the ordinary way 
 as Crown lands. We simply say that they have not a title ; that it is within the power 
 of the proper public authority to deal with the fee of that land still. The Government can 
 grant us, if they feel so disposed, a right to a portion of it. They can ignore this possessory 
 right, and give us a license of occupation from the Crown to pass over that 100 feet. We 
 will be content with that for we are not alarmed at those treats 
 of going to the Courts or to the Privy Council. If I understood Mr. 
 Cameron rightly he admitted before this Court that they were quite 
 willing to allow us to come down to Bathurst street on the lin3 as surveyed, if we do not 
 coma within their station ground fence. If he can show us how we can compel the 
 Grand Trunk Railway and Great Western Railway Companies to shift their tracks we 
 will be very glad to have this authority, and have it put in writing and endorsed by the 
 Railway Committee, if they have any authority to deal with it, but we do not find in the 
 Railway Act that we have any authority to compel other railways to shift their lines. 
 We can cross them, but I do not see amongst the powers that are giving us, that of shift- 
 ing tracks. 
 
 Mr. CAMERON— I ask whether anything has occurred since the 30th of May to 
 put the matter in a different position from what Mr. Laidlaw then put it in 1 He was 
 then satisfied with our proposed line through that 100 feet. If nothing has occurred 
 since the 30th of May between the Grand Trunk Railway and the Credit Valley Railway, 
 why are we here 1 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL— Something has occurred. 
 Grand Trunk Railway Solicitor, which T have read. 
 
 Wo have ha<l a letter from the 
 
36 
 
 Mr, CASS ELS— The letter from us says that you are not to compet« with us for 
 traffic east of Toronto. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUG ALL— That is not the matter before us; we are here rightly 
 under the law claiming the interference of the Government to lot us enter Toronto where we 
 have « riglit to go. If t!ie Northern Railway Company and the Grani Trunk Eailway 
 Con^pany will consent to shift their lines so that we will not be driven to come here a^ain 
 or go into court, we are satisfied. 
 
 .^ ■ ^■^' CUMBERLAND— You cannot say that you have ever asked them to shift 
 their lines ? 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL— We have asked for right of way. 
 
 trackT"^' ^^^^^^^^^^-You have not asked the Grand Trunk Railway to shift their 
 
 Hon. Mr, MACDOLTGALL— No. 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND— It is the simplest, best, cheapest, and easiest way to settle 
 the matter. •' 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUG ALL-It is all very well to say that now, but it should have 
 been said before. 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND— You will not find a discourteous word in all my correspond- 
 ence. Ti\ e have invented your Ime. offered it to you ; yo« have concurred in, and ac- 
 cepted it, and yet we are brought here at enormous expense, without any necessity for it. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDDUGALL— I do not think the expense is enormous. 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND— You may not, but we do. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL- We have invoked the interferenceof theGovemmentin 
 the proper way. Our plan has been fyled, and you now admit that the line which we have 
 <.'nc> n is not injurious to you. 
 
 Mr, CASSELS— That plan is dated the 17th of June. 
 
 S'"'^ A^JaX^^^r?.^^^^^-'^*'® *1"««*^^°^ of *i™e has nothing to do with it. 
 Mr. LASSiiLb— The management know nothing of it, and we object to the 
 junsdiction of this court. o > j w 
 
 at th^Tuteet ^^^^^^^^I-^-You should have objected to the jurisdiction of the court 
 Mr. CAMERON— We did object to it then. 
 
 ♦i,„f ^'":i C^S^^^LS— We objected to the title being discussed, as were not prepared for 
 
 not!; r •"? '''"'5^" *^'° *^^l*^® 'l''^'*^^" of crossing could be better discussed when the 
 point of intersection was reached. 
 
 here. 
 
39 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOXJG ALL — With reference to the last Act, on which Mr. Boulton relies 
 as having rescinded the Order-in-Council, reserving the control of railway lines in the city, 
 the question was raided by Mr. Oliver, M.P. for North Oxford, at the time this Act 
 was before Pai'liament, that it might be so interpreted to the disadvantage of the Credit 
 Valley Railway. A motion was made in Parliament embodying that view, and providing 
 against it. It was argiied there by members of the House on both sides, that no such 
 interpretation ought to be put upon it, or could be put upon it ; but Mr. Mackenzie, with 
 that power of decision, and ability to see through Acts of Parliament, which distinguish 
 him, held that it was an absurdity that any such interpretation could be put upon it. 
 The' debate on the question is reported in the Commons Hansard. The whole matter was 
 discussed and disposed of, on the assumption that it was not the intention or the meaning 
 of the Act. Now, gentlemen come here and take the very ground that Mr. Mackenzie 
 considered absurd in 1875 ; they contend that it was the intention of ParliamH.nt to repeal 
 the order. If there had been any suspicion in the minds of members that such an inter- 
 pretation* could be put upon it, it would have been amended. If any suspicion, even now, 
 should arise, it will be amended next session. It was never intended that two railway com- 
 panies should have the power to lock up access to Toronto. Public indignation would be 
 aroused, and find its expression in Parliament if any attempt of the kind were made. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— Cannot this be settled by the i-ailway companies? 
 Hon Mr. MACDOUGALL— We merely want to get into the city, 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— There would be no trouble about a settrement if Mr. Hickson were 
 here. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— One thing is quite clear it is going to be a complicated 
 matter as to the title. If the Northern Railway or the other railways have any jegal or 
 equitable title the Government cannot interfere with that, and no matter what the Govern- 
 ment might do the Courts would over-ride any decision they might arrive at as to getting 
 across this Ordnance property. No grant, or patent, or license of occupation will be ot 
 any value if the title is elsewhere, either legally or equitably. I thmk that it would be 
 impossible and very unwise for the other railways to attempt to keep the Credit Valley 
 Railway out of Toronto, because it is quite true, as Mr. Macdougall says, it would be im- 
 possible to prevent their getting power from the Legislature to do so, if in ^o ^^^J 7^ 
 Public opinion would be against the Credit Valley Railway being kept out. Whether it 
 was wisely commenced or not is another question. There it is, a railway now in existence ; 
 a railway which is standing at the threshold of Toronto, wanting to get in, and if by any 
 exercise of legal right the other railways keep it out of the city I am quue sure the Legis- 
 lature, as a matter of justice, will be compelled by public opinion to override all those 
 legal rights and give this Company's railway admission into Toronto Just as surely 
 as I sit here the Legislature would force the other railways to yield the track, aud 
 having that fact before them I think that they should address themselves at once to 
 do it without any trouble from litigation or otherwise. Then as regards the "^t^'t f th« 
 Crown : I speak from myself only just now as Minister of the Interior, and I state only 
 my first impression without prejudice to final action of counsel in the mai er ; J'vitlthmk 
 that the Government would feel themselves veiy much mclmed to assist the Credit Valley 
 Railway in getting into Toronto. They cannot, of course, override any legal or equitable 
 titte thlt thf othe? roads may have, but they can do this : they can say if we have got 
 
 
 
40 
 
 any rights there— it the title be in the Crown—*' we will grant a license of occupation 
 to the Credit Valley Railroad subject, of course, to all those other rights." It might be a 
 license of no value, but I think the Crown ought to do that. I think we ought to assist 
 the Credit Valley Railway as far as we can in getting into Toronto, but, at the same time 
 the Credit Valley would have to take it at iheir own risk, and it would be of very little 
 value to them, because it is evident the title is so cofcplicated that it would be hunff up 
 m the courts for a long time. Therefore, I think it is in the interest of the Credit 
 Valley, as well as of all the other railways, to come to an arrangement. I do 
 not think the Grand Trunk or Great Western or Northern railways have a 
 right to complicate the matter by making any conditions as to the terms of 
 future traffic. I think the only question between them is, how can they arrange it 
 without disturbing the business cf the different roads. The Credit Valley Railway can 
 get into Toronto, and I do not think the other roads should impose any conditions as to 
 trade, ihat must be settled in some other way under the terras of the Railway Act or bv 
 legislation if there is anything like an attempt at monopoly, increasing rates undulv or 
 hampering trade. That is my strong opinion. Then, as regards crossings, supposing the 
 Government conclude to say that they think they aie bound to give a track across their 
 property-if It be their property-to the Credit Valley Railway, then the second ques- 
 tion of crossing comes up to be settled. That must be settled by the Railway Committee 
 unless there is an arrangement made between the different companies. I think the claim 
 made by Mr. Cassels on that point for delay is a reasonable one. I think the notice 
 given was too short ; that the interests at issue are too great to be decided on so short 
 
 ZTL ^^ul^T'' *^f,^"^^^,ft^ ^«*^\^« gj^e^ only three days ago, is not sufficient 
 and the Railway Committee will be inclined to grant on that branch of the subject a 
 reasonable delay-say ten days or a fortnight. In the meantime I hear, if time is onlv 
 given, you can come to an agreement. I dare say that the present Chairman of the 
 fhfZ7 ^T^'.f ^" ^^" Pf^^^ly ^« ^t «ea by that time, but the Committee can meet 
 selves ""^^ °" '•'"'* *^' ''*'''^"° ^* ^"^ *^"^^ *^«y «*" ^"*«g« *1^««^- 
 
 to wh^[ Z^^^^rj^S^'-''^'' ''' ^-^^"^^ -" ^^- --^«^ ^^--^ves as 
 
 P.nfi!f ■ ,^^^Sf-f LS- When would we know your decision as to the question of title t We 
 contend that the railway ought to bebuUt to the point of interaecdon before a dec sL 
 should be given regarding a crossing. ue'-ision 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS-I think it would be far more sensible to settle the crossing first. 
 
 ;^^- CASSELS-1 do not apprehend from what I have seen of the corresnondencR 
 
 WithZJd^* ^""7 "' ^^" %^°"'« ^^«"« *^^* ^^«^« -^" be anv rCCa al ' 
 
 ^fbeXe er.grtoTara^^^^ "'^' ^^^^^^^ «^^ *° ''^ ^'^ °^ -'--^ion it 
 
 w>,..^^''* Mr MACDOUGALL~We object to that vei^ strongly, because until we know 
 where we are to cross we cannot go on constructing our line. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS—There ia no jurisdiction in this Committee as to crossing nnHl vn,, 
 
41 
 
 qir TOHN MAODONALD-I take it that the Railway Committee J[o«^d on a 
 ^l.J:l?^^«^^or. sene. of schemes for crossinga. beiug laid before them deada 
 upon any length of line. 
 
 Sir fiHABLES TUPPEB— It does not appear to me that much time would be lost, 
 
 representations of the parties who are adverse It does not ap^r ome to e j^ 
 
 todelivthat qnestionif there is no disposition to cattsb delay. .^^^" " °"J. ., 
 
 hyp^tSti^ttyT If they do I am inclined to think the Companies might agi-ee, then the 
 questloii of crossing can be takan up. 
 
 Mr. CASSEL9-I yprehend *.t T';- «>• ''^^'jirvXy E^^^ 
 
 what 
 
 There - ,j 
 
 Jrtini uU'Z Z»S^ a- iu5g«„nt upon ihi. SM point. 
 
 the meantime there's an end of it. 
 
 8i. JOHK MACDONALD-1 *o.,d like^^^^^^ 
 
 then they would hare to pay for it 
 
 Mr. CASSELS-WiU the Government say whether the price of it will be r. 
 
 mitted ) 
 
 Si, JOHN MACDONALD-We<«nn«t..rtHt Without the »nt,borU..v of P.r 
 
 liimeiit. I tUnk tkat Wong, to the Impeml OoTomment. 
 
 S^r^wtodeal^withitataU. The on. foUows th. other. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD-l think w, ™ght1» a«.l with that, „,n»ingthat the 
 tod -was velrted in the Canadian Government. 
 
 ^X, rdtaSld, «.d the whole W.A wiU hare to be .topped 
 
 8ix JOHN MAC]X)NiLD-.No .cti«. of the Oovemmenl will prevent the.e legal 
 qu«Nltidnii ttiiiEdngt 
 
 1% 
 
42 
 
 '"^ Mr. HAY" — But the gentlemen of the Northern Railway say they are willing,''that 
 the Credit Valley Railroad should go down to Bathurst Street — complete their road to 
 that and get their money. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS— I don't think the Grand Trunk Railrot 
 
 d object to that. 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND — On behalf of my own company, I beg respectfully to sfty 
 that while I understand no judgment will at present be given, and while from the lan- 
 » guage you use, license of occupation if granted might be worthless, and might be taken 
 at large risks by the Credit Valley Railroad, I might add my instructions are impera- 
 ^7®' .^® ^*^® every desire for peace, and have evinced a most liberal 
 disposition towards the Credit Valley Railroad. We have shown them how to 
 come in, and have invited them to come in over our land under the language 
 used by myself to ray Board which wjvS in these words : — " If the present wants of the 
 Northern are satis_ed, and there is ifoom to spare, do not let us play the dog in the gan- 
 ger. Why should we not help them to get in 1" These are the words I used. We have 
 acted upon that principle — unhappily without results, and we have greatly lamented that 
 we should have been dragged into public discussion on the question, after we have 
 offered the most friendly assistance to the Credit Valley Railway. If it should happen 
 that there is any interference with what we believe to be our rights, and I speak nnder 
 advice of the highest authoi-ities at the British Bar, then my instructions at any rate are, 
 if we are unfairly forced to it, to fight it ought to the highest and last Court. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER~Is it true that the proposition you made by the invita- 
 tion you gave them to come in involved their obtaining the co^pex-ation of the Grand 
 Trunk Railway, and that when they adopted your suggestion, and went to the Grand 
 Trunk Railway they were told that the only way in which they would co-operate with 
 you and carry out your suggestion so as to put them in a position to avail themselves of 
 your proposition, was to provide they would comply A^ith terms that were impossible. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS-No. 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND — All I can say is that the Northern Railway Company are 
 entirely innocent of any concert in obaticles offered by the Grand Trunk Railway. It would 
 be a mere pretence if we were ourselves to offer to give the Credit Valley Railroad right of 
 way on the understanding that the IGrand Trunk Railway would deny it ; but we warned 
 our friends of the agreement by which the Grand Trunk Railway is in possession of a cer- 
 tain portion of the land to the south, which would be necessary to the construction of the 
 line that we advised. We said inasmuch as only a portion of that line — from the Dia- 
 mond Crossing down to Bathurst street is not in possession, and the balance of it from 
 Diamond Crossing to Queen street is in possession of the Grand Trunk Railway we are 
 ready to give you everything we are in possession of ourselves, but you must get the re- 
 mainder from the Grand Trnnk Railway. We offered them everything we could, and we 
 stand by that but we certainly cannot speak for the Grand Trunk Railway Company. 
 
 Sir CHARLES TUPPER — Assumint; that you give them the means of getting to 
 Bathurst street, which would enable them to reach the City of Toronto and get the bonus 
 to pay their men with, they would be without excuse, but if your position involves their 
 also making arrangements with the Grand Tnrnk Railway, and the Graud Trunk Railway 
 

 43 
 
 unreasonable. ■, -r _ ^q 
 
 which we must ascertain, you mnni p ^ 
 not that fair 1 
 
 Sir CHAELES TUPPEB-It U fai.-. 
 
 unnecessarily. • . B^thurst 
 
 Sir U±i3-ivijii.>3 A • tTi 'nt • After getting to 
 
 ,r ^ A aQWT «4 That is without conditions, but here is _ e poi ^ gtation over the 
 
 the Credit galley M"^y- ,^ ^^ „„ eompetition. 
 
 western bound f..,ght-the.eshoul ^^^ ^^^^ 
 
 Sir CHAELES TaPPER-I« that m relation to. 
 you gel to Bathurat street 
 
 Mr. CASSELS-YC. -,,. he Grand Trunk Bailey and 
 
 Sir CHAET.es TUPPf^f ^-^;I,rrSwar;ting do.n to Bathurat street, it 
 
 "¥ 
 
44 
 
 Hon. Mr. WELLS— That is the fii-at I have heard of it. 
 
 Mr. CASSELS — Mr. Hickson, acting for the Grand Trunk Railway, made certain 
 suggestions. It is idle to say that because these suggestion do njt meet the approval 
 of one i-ailway they are immediately to take other proceedings. As far as Bathurst 
 9tre€t]|there is no trouble. 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND — I would venture to suggest that, if an arrangement is made 
 to Bathurst street, it should be made to Brock street. There is plenty of room to that 
 point for the Credit Valley "Hailway, if it succeeds, as I trust it may, in getting right of 
 way. Then the question with the Grand Trunk Railway arises. 
 
 Hon. Mr, WELLS— But we do not know that the Grand Trunk Railway or Great 
 Western Railway will shift their tracks. 
 
 Mr. CUMBERLAND— I do not care for that, because it is a general right of vay 
 which we gave up, aiid which the Government of t^e day made us give up m order to 
 «pcure themselves. What I presume to offer is this : If you get to Bathurst street you 
 may aa well get to Brock street, and then the question vith the Giitnd Trunk Railway 
 arises. 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— I think we have come very near a solution of the 
 difficulty, 
 
 l^r, CUMBE;^IAND— We shall welcome any engineer you lifce to send to looi; the 
 whole thing over. 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL— If ten days would be the most convenient time for an 
 adjournment, why not make some progresfc? Let a writing be drawn up now by which 
 the other companies agree to let us get down to Bathurst street. 
 
 r, i.^J; ^AMERON— Let it go to Brock street, and then all questions between the 
 Credit Valley Railway and the Northern will be settled. 
 
 •)C^ Sir CHARLES TUPPER— Does the 100 feet strip go to Brock street ? 
 
 ^Vl^-U^ Mr. CUMBERLAND— Yes. 
 
 Mr. ELLIOT— I think the Credit Valley Railway will be willing, if all the other 
 companies concur, to allow the road to run on the line proposed by Mr. Cumberland, 
 leaving the damages to be assessed by the Judges of the Superior Court, or by some one 
 appomted by the Privy Council. 
 
 Mr. OCTMBERLAND— I would not agree to that. I want some money down, or 
 some security for it. 
 
 Mr. ELLIOT— We will put good security in the hands, of the Government for the 
 money. 
 
45 
 • ..r. Me.ar. FLming, Shanly, md Trudoau, 
 
 it is much better to nave 
 
 .K^BLES TUPPEK-XV. hope that by the ^^7 « .ee^ju;^ »« 
 
 Son ttrpK'uft with OB. ^ ^^^__^ 
 
 SU JOHN }i^<yO0^^^r>-r^\'':Z:Z^Ct, Z I Irock St«et .o. the 
 Dep^lLeat'L ^nadenoj^W ^^^^'^^JZZ « po»ible to th, other,. 
 At Valley Baawarw.th«l . ,Hh r.~rd to the t«ck a. far » Brook 
 
 Mr. CAS8ELS-AU three Une. are at one w.th regar 
 
 street. , . , ^^ ^o conditions t 
 
 u Mr POPE-So far.. Brook .treeti. concerned tier, are 
 
 . Hon. Mr. POPB-B ^^^ ^i„j_ b^t I thmk 
 
 Mr CAS8ELS-I do not bind raj company i. auyth g 
 not Iti8»n.att.rofa.«ngement. 
 
 . .*v.m are no conditions t 
 
 Hon, Mr. POPE-Tou are not .ure there are 
 
 M,. CASSELS-No. ^^^^^ ^^ ^_^^ ^;„, ^ 
 
 „ «, POPE-Some gentlemen wen. to think yo 
 ,Mef;:ntd there «» no condition.. ^^ ^^^^ _^^^ ^„ 
 
 Mr, CASSELS-There - -.Ctrtr*" 
 „„ng.ment. There « no queeUon abo j,, object of the Credit 
 
 Mr. H.Y-H w;SSo^'X:^-" -™"^^""* '^" 
 aiowed to oonun^xc t^mor^w to ^^ ^__^ ^^^ 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDOK.VLP-That,. a matter wh 
 
Mr. HAY— The men will have to be all discharged unless we can find employment 
 for them. . « 
 
 Hon. Mr. MACDOUGALL— As you, Sir John, are about leaving theoountry,it would 
 be as well to consider the question of title during the adjournment. If you can give us a 
 lioense of occupation we will take the risk of making good our case. We would like that 
 the Government, in the absence of yourself and some other members of the Cabinet 
 should be in a position to determine the question whether they will assume that they 
 have some rights in the 100 feet strip, and give us a lioense of occupation for what it mav 
 be worth. ^ 
 
 Sir JOHN MACDONALD— That is a matter for the Governor-in-Council. 
 The meeting then adjourned until Thursday, July 3rd. 
 
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