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Les diagrammes sulvants lilustrent la mAthode. 1 2 3 32X 1 2 3 4 6 6 • E Mr, down thevc Bti ilh of the H0U8( ductio would now I admir with 1 tho p comra not ve faolB, prevoi 18 real Hovora of prill acqaif) on to law ai that p iHBUua, he end quostic lion of Parliai of our mcnt 1 ventur( particu enquir which" that it here d( occasio aro the veno in of jU8ti( that th Hbould i8 8U»h my par Parlian precede event r should I it was ii should disouasi while t X^', mu oi€mmm FOURTH SESSION, FIFTH PARLIAMENT.— 49 VIC. SPEECH OF HON. E. BLAKE, M.P., ,_, * * '. 1^ ON THE '' 1 « Al EXECUTION OF LOUIS KIEL. •-•;<,- «. OTTAWA, MAKCn 19th, 1886. Mr. BLAEE. I trust the hon. gontlemao who has just sat down will not impute any desire on ray part to depreciate the varied and Torsatile talents of which he has just given us an illuBtration, if I do not devote any conBidcruble portion of the time that I ehall feel called on to trospasn on tho House, to a disonssion of his speech. It was indeed a pro- duction which, if it were to bo followed and discusHcl, would load us tolerably far afield from the question wo are now called upon to debate ; and there is nothing I morn admire than the apparent fervor and freshno-^n m t /.uj with which the hon. gentleman in his peroration, dunou need tho propriety of dealing with dead issuoH, after ho had commenced his speech fty. laying before uh an olta poJrirIa not very Bavonry of anoRotfanfjosftticI fid'ors, rnlhor thhu faotB, whi<;li iio pi'U|)OrivJ piiuulU be HOt lor»o u-* to prevent us from dealing with the very Horious if huo which IS really before us. I have admirei h'lA skill and tulent in Hoveral capacities. I have admired hiH nkill in tho niakiii:r of printing contracts; I have admitcd hin poworn in tlio acquisition of railway subsidioH, and 1 am to-ilay ciiiliil on to admire his atlainmentH in tho prufosMion ol' law and in the proletsion of medicine, us well as in that process of tho colloctiun of odds urn* ondNofdeal issues, which he began by tollini^ us nbunl, though he ended by denouncing tlieir being luii'ed. Now, Sir, the question before us belongs to that part of tho a iniinistrfi- tion of justice for which the Executive is responsible to Parliament. It is, in its nature, out of the ordinary Hto|>o of our enquiries. But I am glad lo know that tho Govon - ment has frankly recognised tho proposition wiilc'i I ventured a few weeks ago to snggof>t in public — that ibis particular case comes tittingly within tho scopo o( our enquiry ; that it is a proper thing, under tho cf rcumHtHncoH which have occurred and in the condition of tho qucwlion, that it should be brought into Parliamont, and hhonid bo here debated and decided. There is, therefore, on thiH occasion no necessity to engage in tho conKidcration of what are the limitations under which wo may properly inler- veno in Parliament with this portion of tho adminislralinn of justice, because both cidos of tho IIouso appear to ai^roo that this particular ca^e does not f'«ll within any rnio which should prevent our interferonco, but rather that its nature is such as imperatively demands our intorforoncc ; and, for my part, I should have thought it a humiliation I) tlio Parliament of CanaJa if- in tho circumstanccrt which preceded, which at'endod, and which hivo f)llowc'il tho event round which the interest of this d<'b.ito contros — it should have been argued by any responsible Hiatoimau that it was in this Chamber, and in this Chamber only, that there should not bo free discussion, and a deciciion nflor that discussion, upon tho conduct of tho Adminibtration. But while this is the case, and while I for my part do not desire to com))lioato tho particular isane which is raited with any othor issue not neoeasary to bo considered in order to its dotormination, [ am not equally able to com- pliment the Administration upon the mode in which they — because I drop disguises, and say they — have brongnt' this question forward, and have insisted that it aball bo di^'bated. I ontirely agree that, while the case is one for our consideration, tho discussion is of a delicate rhuractcr, dealing as it does with tho administration of jiHiice. It is a caso in which I believe we ought absolutely tu eschew all spirit of partisanship, in which we ou^ht, as far as possible, to oliminato from our minds all spirit even of party, and which we ought to approach as nearly as wo niiiy w th tho falmness, the dignity, and the impirtlallfy of U.') juilkfo This is always a ditflcult task for a political body, aruj thoreforo a task rarely to bo attempted — to ho aitomptiMl only under that pressure of necessity which res's upon in to-day. But it is a task peculiarly difficult on tho present ocasion, because of those questions of race and cpo-tI which hiivo boon drawn into tho discussion; because of the o'i otlonco, which has boon made, rightly or wrongly, apirtit'the (|uestion under consideration; and because nl.-^o of the (junstion of responsibility of the Government i'sclfin connection with the outbreak which gave rise to tho trial which resulted in tho sentence which tho Govern- ment ordered to be executed. But, Sir, though I quite re- cognise tho special difiiculties which surround us in approaching this our task in tho spirit in which jt ought to hn approached, I concoivo that tho oxistenoo of those ditfiinillios only makes tho adoption of that spirit the more imperative, and that our duty is, so far as the interests of truiii and juslioo will allow, to say no word that may irri- tato, ivnd as far as possible to tako a course which may hoal olJ sores— and new soros too, I agree in tho obser- vation which was thrown out from tho opposite side of the IloufC the othor day as to the general tone and temper of tho debate wo far ; and I hailed with extreme pleasure the cauitooMs and kindly compliments which were paid to my hon. friend beside mo (Mr. Laurier), by two of the Minis- ters, on his speech of tho other evening. It i.^ to my mind Ibo crowning proof of Pretoh domination. My hon friend, not contented with having for this long time, in his own tongue borne away the palm of pirliamontaiy eloquence, has invaded ours ; and in that field has pronomu'od a speech, which, in my humble judg- ment, merits this compliment, bocauso it is the truth, that it was the fmosl p.irliamontary speech over pronounced in the Parliament ofCanada sinco Confederation. That speeoh has been com]i!ained of a little because it differed from tho tone, it was saiJ, ot former speeches. Some things have been said upon it lo which I may ask your permission to allude at a later date. Now, Sir, tho hon, member for Ottawa fi fMr. Maokintosli), announcing in varioJ tono8 and at diffaront intorvulH, Iho attiludo of lion, gontlomon on this Hido of tho IIouHO with roforonco to IIiIh question, a littlo miHtooit it, and, 1 thinif, without any juntiliablo ciiumo for Huoh mistulio. 1 havo tho honor to occuj)}', liowcvcr unworthily, tho position of loader of tho Liljoral )):irty ; and with a full houho of tho roMpouHihility attuchiiig to thai position, I took, at tho oarliont juiicticublo moment aflor my return to tho country, tho opiiortunity of declaring puhliciiy what 1 conceived ought to bo and wnn tho attitude of thai party towardn this quontion. 1 havo Hinco enforced by argu- monton ail occuHions the view that that was our true attitude ; and I repeat to-day, in tho proMcnco of thin Parliament, the declaration 1 thou made, that upon this subject tliero has not boon, nor is thoro intended to 1m, the slightOHt aHSocialion of party in our ranks— that of not jiurposo, and in tho be- lief that wo hhall so best discharge our duty to our country, wo havo agreed thai each ono of us shall, after listening to the arguments and coming to such conclusion as we can, vote as ho conceives, entirely irrespective of all party all..mcos, the interosls ol' bin country demand. Some hon. mEM13EI13. llour, hear. Mr. BLAKE. Hon. gentlemen opposite choor derisively. I understand them perfectly ; they cannot conceive of such an act. It is incrediblo to them that )>ublio men should so act, and I do not fool moved at all by their cheers, knowing as I do from eighteen years' ox j)orionce, their manner of conducting business. But wha- 1 say is true, for all that; and so, upon this occasion, I must spoak, not at all in my capacity of leader of a party, but as an individual, for myself alone. Tho hon. member for Lincoln (Mr. Jlykert), tho other evening, very much complained that I had not boon hoard from earlier, and he also, with that vivid imagi- nation H'hith he shares with llio hon. member for Ottawa (Mr. Mackintosh), made some statements with rcforcnce to my course in debates on impor '. questions, which I might challenge if it were perha,;.-, worth while. I had thought that 1 had expresi-ed opinions which are recorded in tho Debates, and oi which I believe 1 havo no caut^o to bo ashamed, with reference to tho Streams Bill, the Boundary question, so far as that was at all a con- stitutional question, and tho License law. But it seems that t'vj hon. member's diligence and researches havo failed to recall to his recollection or to ^nablo him to ascertain that 1 ever sjioke on any of these topics. Uowovor that may be, I never intended that this debate should dose without my saying something upon this question ; but, as 1 staled upon tho occasion to which 1 reier, 1 desired to hear, being entirely uncommitted by any decla- ration or absolutely formed o])inion, what was to be said on both sides of the quet-lion, and 1 havo awaited, 1 think, a convenient time for the prcHontation of tho cuse by those who have been assailng the Admitiistration and by tho Ad- ministration in its defence. J think we have tho right In assume, at this period of tho debate, that all tho maicrial positions which could be brought forward on tho c^ide of cither of the contending [larlies have now been advanced. I waited, I confess wiih some anxiety, to hear the legal adviser of tho Goveinniont, who, 1 thought, miglit at an earlier period than tlii.-^ havo onliglitened us ujion tho?iO portions of this important question which specially appertain to his duty, to his ro^ponsibility, antl to his office. But when 1 saw, two or three nightn ago, after the dot-o of tho speech made by the hon. lueinbcr for Iberville (.Mr. BechmJ), though lunf a dozen Ministers or more, including tho Minihlei- of Justice and tho (Secre- tary of Stale, were in their jilacos, that tho ('• voiimiont declined t) rise; when I taw their suj)poriers calling " question ;" when 1 saw the Guvornment insisting upon Ojtposilion members, or upon bun. gentlemen on this side, geutlomon who did not lake the view that the (.ioverninent took, following ono another, and thus docllninK tho debate ; when i found my hon. friend from iiast Quebec (Mr. Laurior) obliged to rise after tho hon. mombor for Iberville, and when I found, 21 or tH hours afterwards, that still tho Minister of Ju.slico did not rise, 1 j)rosumed ho was not going to rise at all, or, at any rato, not until after ho had heard homo other speakers on this side. If, therefore, I shall bo obliged to htalo some conclusions, to advance some opinions, which, after the further light that ho perhaps may bo able to throw up')n this suhjoct, 1 should havo modified, I trust that the House will not supjtose, at any rato, aflor tho taunt from the hon. momber from Lincoln (Mr. Kykort), and alter the course i)urHued by tho Govern- ment so far with nforonce to tho debate, that I havo inde- cently hurried my ),rosentation of my humble solf to this Uouso. I havo said that I bolievo that tnero arc materials very important to a sntisfactory discussion of this quostion, which materials tho Government havo not thought fit to bring beforo us. 1 do not intend to onlargo upon that topic, having had an opportunity of refer- ring to it a day or two ago. I say wo ought to havo had an opportunity of seeing some of tho papers which havo been brought down and which wo have not yet aeon, because we know that unprinted papers are accessible to but few. i'^or my part, I havo not yet had the opportunity of see- ing a single paper brought down by tho Government so far, with tho exception of the instructions to tho Crown counsel of which I obtained a c^py. There are important papers, so far as 1 am able to gall. or from slatoraenls made by tho Minister when ])rosenting from time to time thojo which ho did bring down, which are not yet brought down, and some, ai-' I shall show before 1 resume my seat, very important. 1 think tho corduct of the Administration on tho question of tho juoJuclion of papers is blamoablo in tho oxtremo. They use these jiapors us a fund upon which they can draw, so far as they thi'di them advantageous to them- selves in tho conduct of tho discussion ; but such papers as they think do not tell in their favor, they hold back, Take tho .Minister of Militia. Tiio oilier evening ho thought it would help his argumetit with roforonco to tho patriotism and disinterestedness of fiiel, with roforonco to the degree of sympathy or tho reverse which wo ought to extend to him, to read a loiter of Bishop Grandin. Tho Minister takes the letter out of his jiockot, and he reads it. Ho thought it would help him and therefore he read it. lie llioughl it would help him to anticipate tho encounter, which 1 am sure wo are looking forward to with great interest, of tho two militaiy men, tho hon. Minister of Militia and the hon. member for HoUochasso (Mr. Amyot). Ho thought it would do him a littlo good to bring down some telegrams in advance, and ho road extrai Is of a lot of letters, and a couple of telegrams, which ho says were sent to him by the hon. member for Boilochasse, and ho road thom at a tirno when the hon. tnonibor fin- Mollochasse (Mr. Amyot) having alroaJj-spokoii, hud no opportunity, according to tho rules of debate, of replying to him, and when they wore but very littlo relevant to iho iiuostion. Such was the course that tho hon. Minister ot Mihtia thought consistent with his duty to tho House, with tho digiiiiy of his position, that ho thought conri-toiil with the goneio-ity which ought to prevail between political (>|)|).>iiont.^, Tho Government Moiecl such papers as they think they can make a point on in tho debate. Thcso they bring down at tho moment they want to use them, but ttio mass of pajiers, on the ))crunal of which, if thi^y had boon placed in an accessible I'orin beloio us, a ])roper general jiilgmtnt could be reached, tho.io they let'uso to bring down. They say th;ty havo no lime to bring them down, that they have no time 10 do anything else but to debate this (jueslion from day to day, and have time only to bring down those papers which servo their arguments. 1 said the other day, and I repeat, that in my opinion the whole quostion of the conduct 8 of tho Govornmont, boforo tho robollion and up to tho out- break, and tho wbolo nttitiido and relation of tho liaU'-broodji and white Hottlors to tho Govornmohi with roforcnio to tlio vaiiouH quobtioim which havo hoon agitated, are oxlrcmoly maturial to tho formation of u juii^monl upon thinqiio-lion. 1 did not Huy what tho hon. tho Minister of tho Inlorior Iho other day mihunderstood mo as Haying', tiiat I lhoui far I quite agree, but what 1 said the other day, and what I roitorate, is that, notwithstanding that proposition as to tho complexity and magnitude of tho questions rendering it inconvenient that they should bo debated together, it is none tho loss important to a sound decision upon this ques- tion ti lit tho other questions should be debated, and wo are doing a wrong thing: we are putting tho cart before tho horso, when we discuss first of all the fi.ial act in tho great drama, instead of dealing in ,ho first instance with those precedent facts and circumstances, threshing them out, sifting them, and endeavoring to reach a con- clusion as to the relative responsibilities and attitudes of the Government of the country and of tho people who rose. I say that we ought to know that in order that we may properly moasuro what tho moral guilt was of those who rose, we ought to know it in order that wo may properly measure what was tho right of this Govornmont to act as judge in this cause. And, therefore, Sir, I am of ojnnion that tho course which tho Government has decided and insisted upon being pursued in this matter is an inconvenient, an illogical, an unsatisfactory cjurso. I thiuk also that it must bo thoroughly understood— and wo may as well understand it now — that, if wo aro to put the cart before the horse, wo shall havo to deal with tho horse a little later. 1 think it had better bo undorHtood that we are not debating in this motion, in tho form in which it is insisted that tho question shall bo put, when wo cannot call, if it wore convoniont to call, for a decision upon it, when wo havo not those materials to which I referred the other day, the obligation to submit which to us has boon admitted by tho Government but remains unperformed; that wo aro not now debating, still less deciding, that great question, a question which is tho question. Sir; for what wo are debating today, however important it may be on tho general principles which govern it — and I boliovo it is of gravo importance — however important it may bo with reforenco to tho question of sentiment and the question of feeling which have been raised about it, that question is but an incident of the real question which is to bo tried between tho two sides of this House. And again, Sir, I am unable to com- pliment tho Government upon tho course which they havo pursued in determining that, this question being brought forward now, the discussion, in its practical form and sense, should be limited, by their motion of tho ])revious question. 1 am not hinting that wo may not debate tho main motion just as freely alter tho previous question is put as before — of course we may ; but -M the questions which aro involved in tho main motion aro questions which aro properly to bo debated, and some of them should have boon brought for- ward in a manner in which tho opinion of tho llouso should betaken upon them in this connection; and the capacity to take the opinion of the House ujjon them in this connec- tion being taken away from us by tho proposal of tho pre- vious question, the Government has, as I conceive, exorcised a very unwise discretion, and pursued a very needless course as well, in so dealing with the matter. 1 say a uoodloss course, hocauso I think it is pretty palpable to all of uHtbat no p;m)s<, )»iI|i- ablo, incredible dolu}', nof^'loot iirul mi4tniuui|;oiM(Mil. 1 WftH Htruck the ollior nii^lit whoii my huti. (lionil fVoin V.:i-i Quebec (Mr. Luurier) in ilio course ;(elhur, rotoirol tx the cxci'Uli<»ii <>\ A Itniral Byng. 1 thought I rei'ollfi'lotl i-otncthin^jof u hi^tniic A |mial- lel in another regard bulwocn thohe timcrt and piMHoim a'nl thoHO timoH utiil ptrnon-* , and turning; riuxl nioinin^ t<> ih ' book 1 had in my niomoiy, WalpoloV book on (looii^o U, I found what happened ut that limo. At tli il limo, t )>, Sir, there was a North American (I'lOrttlon wilh l-Inghind ; nl that time iharo was a Frcncli question in North Amcriia ; »nd juBl at that time the annalist of tlio roigfi ol (i.jorge 11, recordn with reference to the .Sei rotary (if the Soiiltn'rn Department, tlie Minister of I ho liitcrior ol that day, the DuKO of Newcastle — that duke who, wlmn ho wan told, an I said awhile a;;o in this House, that Annapolis must Ik) defended, said, "Oh, yes, of course; Anna|)'>lis nuisi Iw defended; "ertainly. Whoro ! where is Annapolis?" — uf that same Minister, ho records that what fatulilated tho enterprises of the Kronch was the extrnmo ii^no uni'' in which the English court bad kept themselves ot the allaiis of America. " It would not bo credited," says the anna!i.-t, " what roaxH of paper, representations, mo!no;iuls at;d peti- tions from that part oi the world lay mouldering unl un- opened in his oflice." And turning a lew i)^^es on to ilii< other event which had called my attention to tlio siilijcct, 1 find the account of this same Minister with rufeienco to iJyng, that whan a deputation waited oa himshortl3' bofoio the trial took place, to make represonlalions ntr imst tin) Admiral, he answered ; " Uh, indeed, lie riliall bo uiud im- mediately, he shall bo hanged directly." S» 3011 see, Sir, there are very curious parallels between p»«t and ])rosont times. Now, Sir, 1 have hold, and I boll this (Tovcrninu'iit. responsible for every dollar of 1' public and |>iivaio tieii- Hure which has been expended, jry putit: ibai has tuou inflicted, for every lifo that ha; ^n lost, wlo'ther on ih.) field or on the scatt'old in the North- West, and I bellevo that lor this, their responsibility, they will bo call< d to a strict and atom account, hore first, and afterwards at the ^reat tribunal so soon as they, who boldly challengo us to como on, choose to bring forward those papers which they hold — I do not know wholhor they be yet m(valik'ring oi- unopened — but which, in some way or otiier, tlu-y iiold within their vaults. Now, with reference to tho insargents, of course there was legal guilt— of comx-, rebellion, the old saying is, is always treason until it bocomos revolution. The degree of moral gnill is not a question for the jury at all ; it is a question to bo considered when you come to award the punishment. It docs not affect in the slightest degree either llio verdict ol iho jury or the sentence of the court. Itiel was legally guilty, no matter how great, and pressing, and long endured the griovancos may have been ; no matter how strong the caso may have been ; Biel was legally guilty, no matter wlial iho moi a! ju-ti- fioation or the moral palliation or excuse may have been ; Kiel, and those who rose with him, wore Ifgiiliy guilty of the crime of treason, if they woro mentally rcsponoiblo. The Crown in the course of this trial, sto))ped the evidence £.bout the grievance-, and tlioy stopped it — I make no complaint of their conduct — they stopped it rightly, booauso it was no defence at law, because it was uUorly impossible, AH the Crown counsel observed, that thu court which sits under the authority of this Parliament and of this Govern- ment, could permit evidenco to bo taken to t-how tliut treason or lobellion against this (r)vornmcnt was a Justifiable thing. Thero was then. Sir, upon this trial before the jury, complicity wilh and a league in, the insurrection being abandaniiy proved, and in fact practically admitted, the single quostion whether the pri- soner hh 111 1 I'll found guilty, or whothur ho should he iMind ii it tjuilty, on tli' ground of insanity. Now, boloro dealing with that question, I wish to refer to some only of the inridents r'Hinocted with the trial, and 1 regret that the coiirs) ot lliis doliato has somewhat lessoned, in one or two rexKC'ts, the favdiablo impreshion whiidi I had derived and had pKa^uie in expressing on a former occasion. I have ii.yseir oxpiessed — and 1 hud hoped, and hope now that wiiut I t>aid, tliouLjh not said hore, might have been thought, not wholly unworthy of some obfervationH— 1 have exj.rcs«od my regret at tho choice of the judge in this cDso I li:ivo ])ointed out thero were some difficul- ties in re aiion to any judge who might be appointed under tho existing lireumstnncos ; that in the first place those stijiondlaiy niaL^'istratcs, in tho North-Woat were, in truth, inle-ior nrigistiates. They aro not magistrates — I desiro to spouk ol them wilh all duo rospoct-but confessedly they jiro not magistrates in any sense of that weight, dignity, authority, and standing which belong to those magistrates, wlio, iiiuler the laws of tho older Provinces of the IX>mini(.n, aio entrusto I wilh tho trial of capital oiTences. I have p linted out, besides, that those judges are political olU er.-. as members of tho North-West Council, of that very North-West Council whieh, shortly after these trials, thought it within i!io 'phore of its duty to pronounce an opinion — liist of all, upon tho conduct ol tho Government with refer- enie to the transaction of its business, that portion of its l)U>iiio>s tiio neglect of which lod to the insurrection or guvo the ojiportunity for the insurrection ; and, secondly, t) pass an opinion upon tho course which ought t ) have b.'on, or iho couivo which was, pursued by the (i)vornmont with reforen(!o to tho execution of this very sontenee. 1 iuvo pointed out also that the standing of tli'>so oliii'ors in another important respect is inferior to that wliich ought to bo tho standing of mon entrusted with sml) issues, in this: That they aro not oJBcors holding their olli'jo d'lring good behavior; they aro otttoors holding office practically during pleasuro, The security which grows fr im t!io entire independence of the judges of the Executive Govern inenl, does not subsist in this caso, and the fnot that it does not subsist has been omphasizod by this G >veiuinrtnf, which in a well known caso has removed ono of f hoso stipen- diary magistrates from officio. So that, not moroi v 'n ih'ory, but in practice his tho lesson boon taught that those ju.lgos aro undi;r tho control of this Govornmont. Those difficulties, in my opinion, should have been removed by legislation, i do not think that Parliament us a whole, whatever tho Administraiit^u may have dono, really contemplated that trials for high treason or treason-felony should take place before ihoso mugislratos. I do not suppose that in what we thought was happy, peaceful and contented Canada ihoro was any ono who thought of tho possibility of a trial for high treason or treason felony. Spoaking for myself I say it never occurred to mo that we thould have such a trial last j'car or any j'oar in our country ; and I therefore say that I fancy it must have boon upon thot view very largely that the legislation which was passed by the late Govei-nmcnt and which was amended in a direction which diminished to some oxtont tho securities for the prisoner by tho present Govornmont, was passed. You may say those are but theoretical difficulties aftor all. I say, no. 1 say they are serious practical diffiaultios, I have already said clscwliero that the quostion is not simply of the actual fairness of the trial. It is of the last consequence that thi public should have all the securities which constitutional government and parliamentary government have wreited from the prerogative, and that thoro should be in the minds t)f iho ])ubiic a certain conviction that thoso securities exist and are available. This is not a now question with up. It being Six o'clock tho Spoakor loft the Chiir. honld 1)0 V, l)oli)fo ily of tiio that tlio or two ived and I havo ow thill ivo boon AtionH — 1 jU(lf,'0 After Rocoss. Mr. HfiAKK. Hoforo roccHrt I whm poinlin^' mit tluit wo mtiHl not conNiilor llioni poititH u-t llio'iiotical morcly ; they are pructioHl— iritoiiholy iirmlicul 'I'lio Hpiiil of llnin h exhibited in our Htutulob mU-i, •" tho Ai'l which (^otHtiiiidM the yiipromo (Jouil, in which it in oxproMsiiy pruviiird that tho iud>?OM o! tiiiit court nhould not bo comj)otoiil to accept any oommiHMion or otnploynKint, or any omuhiuunt nndor the (lovonimonl <»t' tho day. In Iho ( ''iiHoli laiud 8laluto8 of Lower Cunnda, an exproMH ])rohibilioii oluHimilar character uzirttN, utid wan brou^'ht ii.to play wo riTolicct, not BO many yenrM u^n, by our lulu hunortcd fiiond, Mr. Ilolton, and tiflat in connection with ii Noi Ih Wohl niuttor loo, when a learned jiid/^o of llio Huiicinr Court ol tlio Province of (iu«bo(5 hal bnon «)>|iiiiiitoil admiriiMiralor of ihe (tovernment of llio I'lovirno of Miiinioba. Th's Htaluto precluded tho tnkinj^ clfccl of ihiit app.iintfneiit. And how did thin take j)laco ? How wan it iliat this law wis engrafted on the Hlatuto JJook ? JtocaUHO it had boon fmn I of practical conncfiucn o to tho imoplo of tho I'rovinco of Quebec that it should bo ho. Thero al-<.), as wo Unow, thcro had been an aj^itation a^aintit priovancos ol in:iiiy year-.' Htanding, which culminated in tho robolliini of 18.i7 ; and for a great many yearn thin quoHlion hu8 oC His M.iji»giy'B Uuurt of 'ii({'i Hotiih and i'roriQcial courld mire indvpunilent lliyiii hilliiTtoforo )>; incap'tri- tatiiig the inid jiiJk<'9 from seati in thu KxKciitive ami t.ri^i^iittirit 'Councils, and disqualifying such aj han> now seiits therein fiuui HitiiuB or TotiuK in audi tJouncilg. " That it is eipedient to aecu'e by law to the aaid jiKlgea Ihcir reipec- ti re offices diirinK KOO'l '^>'lii^>^r iu the same luauuer at those ollirjrs •re secured in KuKUnd. " That it will be expedient, fir tho purpoifi afore'aid, to securn niji- quate permanent salaiiva to the said judf(ei on lh*-ir liuiiiif prcwiiti'l trom holding any other offlr.e uf prolil or emohiiuriii uiidi'r the Orowii ." It i« not, Sir, in tho hojday of lil)>rty that wo aio to f or^^ct tho Bocuritios for freedom. Tho price — accordini^ to a hncknoyod but overto bo remoroberod maxim — tho prico ' I liberty is eternal vigilance ; and in thi-< icgurd, as t liavo Raid, an error haa boon committed. Naw, wh;.t i-< tho mca- sure and extent to which this Adminir*tration is cliargoiib'o in this roBpocl? Certainly not in tlio o^i-'tim,' siato of tho law with reference to a trial before ono of tlio hiipun liary mngistratoH. All that can bo complaino I of fairly ii;,'aiii-L them is, that thoir attention boini^ called to tho spocinl cii- camstancosof tho case to the unprecodonlaiid unaniicipatod oircumstanceB, during tho lato Session of Parliament, b^' tliu hon. member for Beaiihurnois (Mr. Horgeron), and tho hii^'- gcHtion being made that legislation hhould take )tlaco, thty declined to accedo to the suggestion and insisicd iluil ilio trial should go on under existing laws. Sir, I huvo t-ai 1 that trials of this description dirtoraltogothor from all oUn'r claissoH of trial in rospoct to tho imporlaneoot tho indopoint- onco of tho judiciary. They differ wholly, becau.io in Iriah of this description there is hardly a c jni'oivablo cumo in modern times at any rate, in which tho Governmoni doc^ not occupy a wholly dill'oron*: relation to tho ])ro-'oiiiliiiii from that which it occupies in all ordinary cases in the al- mi' .dtration of criminal justice. Thoro can bo no qiicstioii, for oxamplo, of the Government being otherwise thiin an impartial and equal adminit^tratorof the law if John Jones (>:• Tom Smith is taken up and accused ol having picked sonu- body's pocket, or robbed Homebody's b^rn, or mainiod somebody, or killed somebody. But cases of this descrip- tion wholly differ. In this caso tho Governraenl may bo, generally is, in this particular case uncjuostionably was— a prosecutor in altogether a different sense and with altogether different relationo to tho prisoners than in those other caeea. I point out— for I dosiro through this discusBion to susluin mynolf by aiUhorily -what authority siiys upon this topic. I rolor to tho well-known book of Liebor on Civil Liberty, where ho uhus tho:io wor.ls : " III till' trial fir trfH< III llm Onvprnm''nl is no Idiir't llmorc'icallv thi' iTuBiMtiiini; piiriy iis it iniy li.< miid it U iri llu' luje of Ihi-ll or an-iiiilt, tiiil till- <}iiviiriiini li iiil (or irrHHon lie i'loiild mil only eiijuy the roinnioii pritec'.ion of a no'iiid p'niil trliil ; li il I'lr Kn>aler prolcetion. • • • Till' tilnl for treason i • a (/iiiKn of lilieriy. Tell iii hiiW they try people fur Ireanoii mid we will lell y.iii wli. ilwr ili.'y ure free ' It redoii'iil-i to lliH ({1 iry of K'litUnd lli;i' iitteiition wai d rectej to t^i^ nnlij"Pt from M lily tiiii"<, and 111 It (.'uirmtee* were granted to llie Ji ijoiier imlii'ied I'lr trea-on ceiiiiiies lituni they were iiHuwed to the ler-ori sii'pu.leil of ii eoiiinioii oll'.ric,., • • * Kip'rieiice proven Ihil not o'liy Hie 111! llii< itMii-Hiitee'i I f a fiilr p"niil trial peeiliarly n' ce.isiry for a (I'r tral in t e'wo'i, hit tint il req lirej addilioiiHl safe- l/iiard'i ; and of uut* or the olh'-r Ilia following jiem lo ma thj mo^t mijiortant. " I'he jid(fP!» nrnt not d p'n 1 ii'i Iht" ICt ■'• 'live • • • " The j id^es iiiiHl not Inpolitcal hoJi"B." * • • M.riy hiifoijuardsiiro sjicciH.' I, of which I suioot tho two that lire ;i,'pi>sito l,( tho proM' lit c,a'*o : '• Tho jiid;^os must not dojKiid on tho Uxoctitivo ; ihojulijos mint not bo politic. il lii'lioi." N »w, Sir, boiii:^ in llio dilU'.iiliy that in those par- tic'ilar trials the (I iveriimoiit undor t!io standing laws which tl.oy did nf)t choiso to ])ri)poso to allor, had to select a iiil.,'0 wh') was dcpondont on tho l''xociitivo — a j idijo whD was Ol o of a iiojitieil l)i'ly, it wns eniinnnlly iiiciimbjnt on thciii to have nialo tho bo.-t sckclion, tho ono which was leal ohj'ictiiiriahl", lli" ono in rospoct of whiith it might bo s'lid, tlioti.'h th'.'fo is a ditJiciil!}' as to all to which I havo iiilvoilcd, this ono is cortaitily the least or, at any rate, not tho mott obnoxious. I5U wh:vt I huvo olijectod to (m u former occasion, an ohjccion wliich I renew tonight, is to tho choic.o of tho parlicul.ir judge, bcciitiio this jiarlicular J I li,'o, as 3011 will si.'o ifyo'i rotor \t t!io Pihlic A"Counts, W!ii llio rcciiient ot's|K'CKil fa/ors, ihn oc-iipant of s|)ccial rcl ilioii-^ to tlio K-xcuiiro of the (lay. In llu; hr.-t place, ho istheloLjal a Ivisor in llio I'lxcciitive of tho NortliWest ; lie i-i so appiiiitod dining tho ploa-iuro of tho Govornmont ; ho H so paid a salary di'iing the ploasnro of tho trovornmont. IL anhWors to tho Attorne\-(ioiu i-al, iho legal advisor of the Govern mci I in 'h- Vo th-Wcst Totfitoiics ; and it iicods i.'>l to onl'ii-go ii,M)u the relations and ro-fponsibilitics (if a Lioutcn:\nt Govornoe of tho North Wc^t Tci'riiorios to a rcbolliot) in iho Nortii-Wo-t, tinl upon tho r^dations and rcspjnsibiiitios of tho I'irst Ministerol' C.i'iada, wlio declared ih'.it ho was tho medium of c;)mmunicatioa lutwoon the two Guvotnmonts, and of the Minister of tlio Interior towai-iis tho Jjioutonnnl (Jovernor of tho North-West Toiritories to point out that it was an unhappy choice to select, of the three or t'jur juJg' h, tho jicrsjn who tilled llio ]) isilion of tho jmliLlcal adviser, tho political law olH.'or, to tho (Jovommjr.t in tho Terrilorios to bo tho j'l Igo in this parli(Uila!' trial, lie is also tho recipiont of special f.tvors. 1 tind, in tho Auditor lioriorars JJcport, just brou:^ht down, a sialcmont of his accounts. I lirid that, ii-iespcclivo ol his s lary of 83,000 il year, thoro has boon p lid to him, ciuiiii,' ll;o year to wlii.h those acijnunls rolor, a spo'-iiil lental allowance of g,)iJO, an additional salary as lo_'al tidviser to tho Lieutcnant- tiovornor of 8-'10, three vote-) of J.'OO ouh as a nominative member of tlu Norlh-Wost, Council, his travelling allowance of 31, OHO. and i;o;nething bBlwoen 8100 and $500 for cxiion.-cs and allowances for attendance at Ottawa in connection, it i-^ sai I, with tho Tonens' Act; making a total of over 82,7l)J jiaid during tho last yoar to this judge, in tiddilion to his salary of 8'iOOt), Now, as to travelling nllowancos, and allow.in(.os as nominative momhors of tho North-Wost Council, tho other judges wore in tho same posi- tion; but tho ujlowances for houso rent and as legal advisor and in connection with tho Torrons' Act are peculiar to tho c partliiilur ofllior wliotn tliofiovornmoiil, I lliink, oxln'iiu'ly uiifbrtiinuloly, duciiiotl (lioy wcmiM oiUrur^l willi llio duly ol' ciiiuliu'titig llii'HO trials. Well, llio imlj^o ihoo^tM the jury juiiiol, iiiid wo liuvo lii'iird fioin tlio linn, iiifinl>(.'r lor Molloi liuM^o (Mr. AmyiitJ ft Mlutoinciit, wliiih I tl.iiik is of CDiisi loralilo iMi|i.)i'liiti(o, tii.d with rofori»tico In wliit'h I hliiiuld liiivu ilorr iho priHoiior t'lit;iiilo iim juiyinoii, but tl)!il noiio or oidy Olio Much wm chonon of tjio panel. I Iv ard tlio hoii. iminlinr for Montreal C\'iilro (.Mr. (Jurtaii) nay llmt no (ihjoclion ol'thal do<'iiplion coild a|)ply, in ('(iiiHcrjuunco of tho rolulioim (d'tlio pii-onor nl Uio lirno oCliin trial to tho cliun h ol liirt (allicrs and tlio cluircli to which ho hiin.iplf bt'lon;^-*, liul I do not think that nr^uincnt hold-' ; and, lor my part, I niu^l nxpioss my ro(,'ivl that, it'lho cirfiiriistaiu'iirt ho an up to thin nioinont thoy appear to ho I'roni iho uik'ou tradiitcd hlatoiiuMit of tho hoii. monibcr (or HolloehuHso (.Mr. Amj'ot), a widor Hcloclioii should not havo hcon rnado ot tho jmiiol j and I nharo the roifrcl expressed hy Kovcral lion. moinh'iH thai tho sin/^lo jjurson who hap|)i.>ncd to ho on tho Jury, cd lliat faith, i-hou'd huvo Ijcoii pt'idiiiptoi ily chai- lenj;ol. i''or thai v.'halIeii<^o thorn may havo Ihmmi, lor ail 1 know, a j^ood rouson ; liut wo are not lold, and wo Tnll^t not |U'OHurao it Wi' a (diallonj^o for causo. Wo all know iho Hhnck iti the admlnictralioii ol justice which ensuod when thono of hiu f'ailli woio ( halli;n/.'Oil on tho occasion (d' llio U'CiinnoU liial. Thai ouicht to liavo hcoti ji Ics.-on on this occasion, and iho hanio diiliculty ou^ht not to liavo recurred in our day. A^rain, with reicivnco to llio character of iho jiiosculion. Tlie wrill"n in.struclions which woro given to tho Ciowii lawyers woro to try all tho loaders, wiih the cxceplion nl certain Indians and oihors who niiifhi bo chari^eahlo with mui'dor— lo try all tho leaders ft. r treason. No ilislimUo.i wliatover was mailo in tho-o instractiouH holweon Louis JJicI and tiio oiiior leaders. I'iow', how did it ha|)pon, under thoio circunntiincos, thai all tlio prisonorn, oxcepl Louis Kid, woro indicleJ — fur tlio same oil'onoo it is tiuo— hut under ihe more modern statuto and ])ro(edure, lor treason filony, while Kiel alone was tried for high treason under iho hiicienl law ? Were tliero opecial instructions given whi< It havo not been ht-ouirht down to u:y, or special vcrbtl insiij lions or commanioalioris dilforing from the goneial inslrueiions which have been brought down lo U-, Jis tho only in-lruclions given to tho otHoeiH ? ]f there woio none ^Ul•ll, 1 corj-^idor it to luve been u violation of tho.se instrucliom to tiy for treason- felony tho mass of iho leaders, and fur high (reason, one. Thoy woro all ordeio.1 to bo triod lor treason, and thoy all ought to havo boon tried under tho sanui Btatute, unless Hpccial instructions wore given lo tho contrary, li was, of course, with tlio cognisance of the Govert'mont that, this ditlcrence was made, hecau--o it was everybjdy'd news— it was i-oporlod in tho jmpors; and, therefore, J assume that iho Govornmonl either in- t-lructod, in tho liisl instance, or else acijuic.^col in tho course jiursuod ; and 1 am onlilled to assume tlirl hecauso 1 oh ervo still further that the Deputy Minister of .Justice was one of iho otllcors associated wiih ihe oUiois in Ibo conduct of iho trial. As to the lime, I agree with the obsorvaiions ihat, have bjen inado, thut it sooms to huvo boon short ; hit 1 am not ])reiiared, in tho present slato of iho evidence, to miintain that it was too short, simply hocauso 1 Jiuve been unable to observe any prr.tesl on tho" part of tho jiriwoncr's counsel that il was u>u short, (excepting in so f.u- as siu-h protest may be implied from their having asked for a longer lime than ihe Crown counsel granted. Upon that Kubjoct, 1 think wo might hiivj fiome luriher information, i wm glad lo bo able to mak j an observation, which has boon re- ferred to before in this debate, as to tho aHbislanco given by tho Ci'own in procuring the prisoner's witnesses; that observation can no longor bo ropofttod in itrt full f()rro,bocnuNO I havo learned, since Ibis debite coramoncod, tho courno wli.ch was pursued with roforenco to tho riMpioMl for witiios-tes. Ill 1113' view, it was of the highost con- ^0(lUonce, uiid in t-uying that I do not overlook tho loUer which tho hou. moinbor for .Montreal ('entro (.Mr. (y'urru'i) road, th.it Dr. Howard should havo boon culled. I do not, after tho s'ateiiieiit rd' that hon. inetnhor, charge his not being |M'i ciired upon tho counsel lor the C'rowii, I) causo tho lion, giiilleman real a letter uldronsod to Dr. Howarl lioni the Department of Just.ce here, from which it upiioaro I that nogolialioim had been going on botwoori tho Diipartnient of Justice and Dr. Howard as to tho tormn iipim whi( h Ihat gontloman would visit Kjgina; thut ho had named, under tho special circumslanccH whi( h tho hon. gentlonnii menUonod, iho sum of ijfiOII; and that it was upDu Iho (piestion ol that (diargo that tlio Department of Justice declined to arrange for Dr. Howard going up to J{ogina, Now, Sir, I regret thut decision. I think it oxt:omol3' unfortunate liiat Dr. Howard— who, bosidw being a well known alionisl, also had charge of Riol for, n-i well as I could g illier, a jioriod of nine months in tho asylum over which he piosidod — wuh not a witness at tho trial, and thai wo havo not now the bonelil of his evidence. I do not lliink any such question as iho dill'orenco botwoon what might have been supposed to bo his rousonablo charge and IliJ sipu of $jiJO ought to havo weighed for an iiiHtant in considering the que-lion whether ho should havo boon avail- able or iioi. Then, Sir, I think it is unfortunate that wo do not know more with rcfoicnco to tho compliciity and roH- jionsibility of the whilom in tho roboliion. Wo remember iho speech ot tho i'irst Minister, last Session, in which ho declarotl that ii was not lothe Imliansor to the half-breoiis, hut to tho whites of Prince Albert, thut wo owed tho shame, tho di-^graco and tho discredit of tho roboliion. Wo liiid tho law otHcer ol the Government jiainting out tho same |>ro|i isition, nol as positively but still \.ith a lolorablo I'ogice ot certaint}', lo the counsel whom ho was sending ihcre, and inslrueliiig thorn that no point was more impor- tant than tliat they should secure ovidoM(!o and convict those who are guiliy iu this regard. Wo hear from tho Ministor of Justii'o that reports have boon rocoived Irom tho law otiicers of tho down on all ihoso points; wo know tho beggarly kind of ailjmpt mado to moto out justice to thoso guiltier whiles. We know that two only wcro committed for tr.i'l, f )r tho .Minister of Justico has told us so; wo know that one was Jack-son of whom the Secretary of Stato, with that liveline.-s ot imagination which charaotorisos his oratory, told his constituonls at Torrobonno tliat ho was a Fi-enchman in all bin tne iianio, that he was Francisi, that ho n'as just as much .a Frenchman as Regnior, and thoro was iiofiuosiion of nationality abosit it. Mr. (.•IIAiniFAlJ. I did not. .Mr. LLAKR, 0!i ! well, we will verify as wo go on. Hero is a loport in Li Mintrre of the hon. gontloman's speech : ( f'r'in»lfitf>n.) "A VdlUK. Von !mvc panionej Jiu-kiOii, t'-.e En.(lishman, why (lid vou iiut pHriluu lUel ? JAokaon, ireiitlfiiien, what has l>e.on flaiil and wriuuii with nvo'il to Jackson's iianioii is, allow iin-' to uao tho words, (lowiiriijlil stir'ulily. In tlii' lirst pUoc, J.-iok^on \i no moriiHU Engliali- iiitii tliiiu yii.i or (. All llie Kiiuli li tliiTe w»8 in liim was hi3 name, ami lie was just h.-i imicli Prencli Ijy lilooii anil language aa Kiel liiiu- 8 If. la lliia lie wai a good (Kal like a Rroat many of our countrymca who are of lin^'iah or Scotch descent, but wluare thoroughly frenchi- li'.; 1. .ftickajn w-n one of Klel'd st-crutaricj. liia fate waa that of KiKi''"'') ''-8 culK'aguc, who waj a Uaaailiai by uaiiie and origin." Ai; 1 then the hon. gentleman proceeds to say: (Tiiinnlation.) •'Thiy Wlto botli pardoned aa accomj.liccs in Iho second degree, 80 tliat the iiuoation of race had nothing to do with the case." That was tho hon. gentleman's statement by tho revised report of the hon. gentleman's speech in tho Minerve, Mr. OIIAPLEAU. It wan not my Hlnlcmont. Tlio lutn. ^'oiitloniun who oorrccU tlio Ifitnsnnl lioro hIiouM ullovr otlur iieo|>lo lo correct rojioilM in oihcr pupcrn. Mr. liliAKK. I do ullow il to hu coirii; I, H'> '.lii-t is tlio account ol llio trial of JackHon, wlii>, I admit, wuh an I'ln^lirtliinan, contrury to llio ircorroiit roport ol'llij ^onlli- riian'H hpocoli, which Momn wickod udvorMar}', witii inturit to f^'ot liim intou corner and irijnro liim ])'>lilically, has foistud into that woii known hoHtilo |)upor to him, tiiu Mtmrve- I ioHvo tho ri'8))onMihility lo liim and tho lion, momiu'r I'uv Ottawa (Mr. Tuhhi^) of Rettlirii^ with thu ropoiior, and I h'>|io tho lion, gontlomun will not hiamo rao if 1 havo chuHun tliu roport from that papor whicdi him ^ivir ostoiLnibly, in iho toHt person, a vt'rbatim roport of hm Hpccch. Mr. ClIArLKAlJ. I blame tho hon. jijonllomaa for nut aci'optlng tho slttlomont of ono of his collouyucs in tiio lioUHO. Mr. ULAKH. I Maid I honed ho would not bhim ) nm iWr having taken tho roport. With roforciico to .(acknon, wo know woil tho circumhtanceH in his cu>e. Wo know lli;il hu had joined Hiol at an curly poiiod, and thai ho is Haid to huvo become a lunalio and was acciuillcd on tho {ground of insanity. The other jjorHon was ono .Scoll, of whom wo huvo not equal particulars, but of whom tho ilinislor of .iiistico roporlH to us iho rcMilt of Iho Irial, saying ho was fiiiind " not guilty;" aiul I think havin;; read that in tho instructionH lo tho law ollictrs and hoaniig tho (I ivcrn- iiiont docluro thai tho porhotiH principally Kuilly wore tho whites of I'rincto Albert, il wouhl bo iinpor- tant to UH in measuring out tho ilo^roi' ol lonity or fovority that was duo to Kiel, to luivo hoard mmuc- tliing more of Iho roHult ol tliirt Hoarch by iho (iovorn- nu'iil againHt their while cnemioH. 1 pa^H, allliDUgli Ihoro aio other pointH to which I might rolur, lo tho issue wiiioh I have naid was for Ihj j.iry lo decido on thai occasion, and thai isHUo was, not whothor iiici was iiiHuno in iho sen-o in which, in common ])ai lunco, wo uho that word, but wholh.'r ho was insane in Iho nonwo of Iho word which Is used in order that it may create irresponsibility forciimes, ]i}- our law, whether that law bo light or wrong, ho mighl l>o inrano in tho sonso in which wo ordinarily u.-o tho word, and yet criminally responsiblo ; arid tho tjue.slion lor the jury was, in fact, whether ho was so insani) a", wllhin Iho meaning of tho law, to bo responsiblo for his acts. This is a difHcult question, as are all (luostion.-; of insanity, iind il nuiy bo divided into two healings: First, what was Iho ctfect if his conduct were gonuino 'i* And next, w.is it gen- uine or feigned ? Now, 1 want to fusion, if I c;in, u))on your mind the question for tho juiy. 1 want you to remoml)or that tho question for tho jury was whelher lu w;is in.saiio within the meaning which tho law attaches to that lorni, r-o as to induce the conse(iuenco of irresponsibilit}' f< r crime, becauBO it must boalw.i^'s remeinlcrod,as the vital iiucstion, as iho vital point, that, without disturbing in tho blighlest Jegreo tho finding of ihe jury, there may I'omain, arid goner- ally will remain, under circumstances like llieso, important conHidirations asail'ecting tho moral guiil, and therctbre, as atl'ecting tho degree of punishment lo bo awarded t) tho prisoner. Tho verdict then of guilty would bo riijht, first of all, no matter bow groat were tho faults of tho (Jovei'ii- mont, no matter how clearly political was tho otTonce, no niatter how groat tho grievances, no mailer how I nig ondu;'- iiig and sulfering tho puoplo miglit havo boon, tlio vor ii't of guilty would be right, no matter how these things ought havo bctn, and nl.-o tho vordic. of guilty wouM he ri.,'!it n i nialtor how clcarij' Itid's intellect wore disordered, if it were not diiordeied up to a certain ]i;)iiit ; and tlicso iwo ihinu's, tho (lueslion of tho polilical character of thooti'enco and tins resultant considerations, and tho question of iho disorder of intellect, would fall to bo considei-cd, consiKtontly with not disturbing in tho least tho verdict of guilty by tho jiiry, in thu aw.tnlof punishment. Now I shall miko goo! uf'tor u li.tlo whilo by aulhorilios tlioso two propositions i but bet iro touching,' tho facts as to iho mental e ni lilion of IhiM individual, it m.iy bo as wdl lolook for u mom uil ut tho gen. oral knowledge on llMiHubj>>cl and iho iiriticip'es of en<|uiry. Th( ro is an old conlrovoivy Iwlwo.wi tho lawyeis an I tho d'lcloi'ri upon thi-i head ; tho do>^tors wideriing the degree ot irrox|i(insihility dtio to disordered intollcct, and tho lawyors narrowing it. both extremes wore, I humbly vonturo to think, porhaps wrong, and I believe that these oxtromes uio soiiui.vhul meeting now. I believe that many eminent men in tho medical profession in those niolorn days have come round to tho view that thoro mny consist with a decidedly ilisordi'red iuleiloct a moasurahio rosjionsihilily for Clime, and that on tho other haml the lawyers havocomo round largely ti tho view ihat tho old and, what I may oall in tho main, the b.iibarous dispositions of the law, ought no longor to be Considered as governing tho c.i^o )int to tho fact that tho homicidal maniao acts without accomplicos, and that, beeauf.0 Uitl had accomplicos, therefore he could not bo a homicidal maniac. 1 havo heard an lion, gentleman this afternoon illustrating this subject by releronco to tho do.■^oription of idiocy, by rcforonee to the tloscription of irnbecilily, by rcfcienco lo tho description of demontia, Now, however much those dcscrijiiions may apjily to very many respeclublo pel sons wlio ontortain, and oven to somo who express, opinions o:i ttiis siihjj.'t, thoy certainly havo nothing ii do with tho pjculiar kind of insanilj' with whioh wo are dealing. Now, Hir.lho'ornineiil I'rench writer Georget, who is quoted by lir;tnest observaMui to them, an 1 working themselves np to the most iutolerablo ex esses " - CloU'ton, who had charge of iho MorningsiJo A>ylam, a very well known insiiiulion at Ivimburgh, in his lovJturca on this matter, f-ays : " Hut to retnrn lo DM , w!io m ly bo ta^en as a typicil case of mono- mania of grandeur, liisnuiid is Hot only all'ected with the deliioion that h> is kinjf, tmt it is all'eet'd by aa niiraal tendoncy to elevation in all directions, and it is n nv -lom -what enfoebl. .1, a3 is c minionly llii oaa-^ alter many ytars in aneh onse.? He often writes me long ram.bling letters proimsinj; vari'iiis inipraclical nrides of inanav;ing the asyltiiii, find he is the greatC'it fault Ii ider in it. Then aflfrctively, he is diff-'rent from II sanx man, shouini; small love for bis wife an I cbil Iren, and lie take.s morliid dislikes to people without real cause. • • • He is ot conrse very inconiistont to work as a blacksmith, ha bein({ a king; out tho conii'ict of by far the majority of llie insane is quiie 8 Inrom p|irrcliitH " A(;ain In siys : " I linvo H ' pru[.liel of lilt lionj,' 0. (). B , * juitifr wIm) li.v no iiirnri" Ht our ilii<|io«Hl fun Id- trul tu wpiK *) liiii trHilv. II < giivi timl llir l<Hti"r, Ac. k<' " I biivu iihiilli.'r limn, I), (l , willi itliin tt [iii'iiiii'y Ihf »niiii' ilflii- • Ion, \ I/. , lliHt III' \» n ' tiiHii (il Ciinl,' will) ii n rii|illilt Wiirkiir ill itlfl KKtili'ii, iiml v'M 'VI It iliiniii ur comrri iniiiR'tiiil)-." Tlioii, red rririf? toil nunibor nf ilm olhcrs oC llio iiiT.iiliM III" llio asylum, liu nnyn : " IliTf ill Jfmij (;iiri»t, iitiil II in iiro ihn |iiO|.lirt Mlln", tin' Kniporor I f till' L'liiviT.H, iln^ riiivcrinil Kiii|iri H I, Krii|iii'H nt 'I'liiki'Vi 'I'l" only lUii^'litir ul (lull Aliiilxl tj, Uiii'i'ii KI'/iImiIi, Iuui Kiii|{< oI Kn)rUiii|, iiii« KinK iit'Hci)tl»ii.l, llii- Diikii ui K Inuiiiiork, iIh« liivi'iilorof |M'r|iuliml iriolion, H iiriii wlio Ima iliHco'iTi' I tln' ni-w ili.xif iil' M'l" timt ••»n riiri- dvliitionii, U (it^tiiunt til wliiiiii lliii rdnlniiiliiiii'nt unit rII timt il cuM'- t«iiiH lii-lii'ikra, H laijy »li.) ilmly mni iiltiliily Imi lUln^hilul i> mvcriiiitioiiH Willi 'ic TriH.!' I I Willi D ainl llif n l ul llin ni^iil lannly, Ac. Ai' Thoiif Kru kU c'hIim iimI hniiiili'f* | i'd) In, ln'mini; tliOT»tlvi'i) In llnir ili-|iuri[iit'iil nnil timuiiiT hh bi rtiniiri uiicli ili.-itln|{iiiiiliu1 lu'ruiin^', Hiiiiik'i Ik ti'w (III nut I'lliiliit Hiiy iiiilwunl or mi-Mulur inilicutiun.i ul' tliclr ^rdiliii'lii, itll nil' HijUii' wny incuniii>^t<'[il mil Klmiilntoly iininuvcil liy ilif iiiiist ooncliuive Hr^iimeiil or evidinco tbitt tboir iilcii'i tru wrunx ur unto iniii'il ' In tlio report of Iho Commi-.^ionNou ('ujiUhI I'liniHlimi iit which ^ftl ill l.'-'OS, tho wry rniini-nt jiliyiiciap, Dr. Tuko, hcirig t'xiuiiint'il, ^avo tlio lLillu\viiif^aiihWor.>> loiinc-^lii'tiH : — '' y I liclii'vii til it tlio kiiu»>li'iI({o of rinlit ni'l vrmii).' il l iliu luli d w:iu-li yiiii lay litni I ,' - A Kxi'i'il iii cmi a ot ttli ul a i iii.i'y or Uimutm, ili'j inuwk'ii^ ijfiiKlr Hii.i wo-;; U intact." Then, with rcruroiicn lo iho Lorilor liiu-, CIuh.iIoii M>y i on tho hubjccl ol dclu.-, uni yet l.ml liibore 1 uriili-r thi' (Iclti- inn ut frriimlciir, thiil In' wiis llii sun i f I'Jiiurt^i' IV, hthI I'll ii'l liiB nutii'v III Ihc town uf Iii ii;lilo'i Iii'i'iiihi- lint niunftrch liiiil lii't-n lomi of that plurr, is one in piiiit llf wm IhM to li' snni' inrvury- ih nir III" (lid lint lii,s w.ll niikiiitj. I uni con.iiHiiily tuiieiill'd liv thiir trinnih aliiiit llii> insani' ileliis;ui;H (if piTsoiis who do i ot show llicm lo tmj I) idy hut their iiiiir rrlalinns, anil eo'itiniio to ilo thrir n-urk and uis I'lipy ri': puimililn po.-iiiuns. I iiuw know in .-oilnml lii"yiT3, ilocior?, rli'iKyi'im, b'li^iiH'ss iiiiMi a:.d wuikiiimi who labor iin'k'r iimloiiliieil de- liisit'iml injiiiiiiy, nnil yi'l do iln-ir work its will hs If Uicy hud b'.rn ipiit." aane " Tlio la'.osl worlv I iiavo ln.cn ulilo to H'ju o:i thi, Hii'Ji-ct i.-. lliut (if Dr. lifcl..riil, ].ulili-liul lu.-l joar, c..llol"iho llmt ii| (11 tho Jiiuiii ; " iii.d he Hiiyti thit^ : " rhua bclwei'n lIn' euiin'lcsl i'lti llig'Tici' an I tho moat (li?i.iril nil there lire iliHVrt-iii'tii our viij^iic adjectivis "ill nut ili line. I'eupie mad eiiuiiuli lo be -luit up ill Hejlunis i.re nji no raii'— i«y uiie in ev ry ^i i.T I'.inh'y i'iv,li-ed ei.'ii' irie.s 'I li n ngain, pi'uple wiili a Ii-t9 Iii:i);-tuih I r i'ltriic'alile ill i;ree (,1 ii.sHuity lire very eumnii'ii l-.veiy mini skilled II ihe I'VlllplUUlii uf Uinill J k'luWri tlii.s. * * * * 1 'l tlie v.oilo'j h.Blory, men sonu-whai lera-iied in nil el Imtb Im I a irroat in- Ihleiife; but tu elleel ihid tb ir deluso id in i?t h.iinijiii^u wall the il.'liiiiiiir ? of the ninliilnde • • . '■ The hirt'ury ol II li(fiuU3 imiiosliire sl-'Owa how (owerfiil ni'iy b" tho i'lHiieiiee of the iii.-ane upon the sane. If ilijiiiutii d to enUr^je iipun sucn a aulij"et, w..- ni';;h!. have the charm teristir.H o' rt /ine id' the tou.i lers ul tlir wild "ee".-^ w hdi fp:ani; into lieinj^ duripf.' Ilie iieriud ■ f 111') Ri furiii- Hlion, fioin Juhn ul Leyden to Veiiiier. Ti Rarda the end i f the hist eeutuiy, Mr. uichard Hrulher*, ot \v lio.ie iiiHanily thrre can b- no cpien- tion; iiifcttd i^ome e Jmatul pe.'ple, and iiiaiiy it the vulgar, with liid clainij lu he iin iiisi'ired [irujih t Mr. H.^lheil, a well-known 0:ientalisl and mem her ut I'arliHineit, wan u'le ul' his fil lowers '1 here are people blill livini{v\lu) rememlh'r Jumna .Suuth.iult, who wa^, when tin yam ul'»(:", lo liiTe bulli tu ihe M. .ss, ih. a'nl wtio w.ig said to bnve had 100,100 followers. InlHiiS John .V choll lli.m cullected a number t-f t.dlowera amcnp the ifjnonint riHtica ot Kent, and killed a coiiEtahle who came to appreh- nd him. After tins he persuaded lun diipe.H to laeo the military, iiuuer the asi^urance tliil Im wmilil make them invuluer- able. I bom kille 1 wi;b a pislnl lli- ullicer ul a detMehmerit vvbirli came toHrre.it h in, ir.d n i-* i istn'itly tliot deid, w;tli niiiK of liM rr.iliilniM followtrs, by ih" sel luTj. 11 was even h'lieve 1 ihal he would rise ai;iiiii wiibin a month.'' " Panily oxisU when the brain and the nervooi ayslera cunditiun that the mental I'linctionii ot fueling and knov 1 road thiK— pailly to mod what I ooncoivo tho orronuouit iirKumont Htoldl in tho report of Hir Aloxiindor (Jumpbell, in which ho iitxncH tlio iin|x>Hsihily of Uiol huviiiK boon foriously nlVoclcd in hi^ iiiiiiil, bociitiHO lio oould iiol liiivo done what ho did d ), and hud IhofollowerM ho hkd, and pur- i-ued ih* cftu'or in tiiat ronpoot that ho did, iiiiIo-ih ho worn H«no. Tiioii, Sir, wo lomo to tho iiuoHiion of tho loj^al view o( iiinaiiily and id ro>^pnll^ii)illly an aH'oclod tiuircby, »nd horo a^niii I Irotildo Iho lloiiio with what I coiiuoivo to bo tlio boKl rocoid-i rd tho o.xpiMiiido I law uimn tho HuhjocU AmoH, ill hJH work, nayn : " Intaiiiiy, In lb" largeit uti- ul thn tirni a* ns'd for l«Kal imrpi>w». I* a tenipurarr or permaiifiil dil irderof llierKlalloni bolWfen Ih" nivDtal ami phyiicariunclloiii of iimn, of *iicb a uatiirn »* to iteiilrojr the ralua I.I Ihfl riirrinl iirrciuniutioi h, fouii led uii lliii«o relatlonit, ui eniiting In • conditiun ol liealtb." Tho Other titiotalioD.'* wliitdi 1 maljo aro (V m Sir Jnino-t l''li/.;ainort Stephen, tho woll known criminal liiwyor, who luM devoted, 1 hiii.po-io, inoro altenlio i to tho pi inoipio and tliooiy, ui'd till! practical oporati'in id' tho oriininikl law. tlian any, or, at any rale, nioit, other in'tlor i criminal hiwycrx, who has been practically ('nj4a;.;ol in tho aUoinpl al coditicatiun, and whu-o kno\vlp. " Inanity ineaim a stale in wliieb one or morn id' ilie above mentioned mental tunctioiis ia performed In an almormal manner, or not performed at all hy reason ut t.owe iliseiise uf the biain or nervou.^ iiyiilttiu. " 'Th're aro tw > uraiid gro'ipi or fiindaiiiental malea of nnnta! anomalies wh oh represent the iwo most eisenlial vaiiet.eB of inaanlty. Ill the one ihe liHiiiiily cons sts in the morbid production (^overninK and piTjisleiice of em ition.i and emotional n ate*, nn lor the Intbience of w bich the wb de nientnl life full'eia aei urdiiiK 1 1 their nature arid form " In the other the insaiii'y cuiissls n disurdera if the intellect and will which ilo nut (any lunger) poc 1 Iri.m a riilin« emotional state, but cxliiliit willi.iiit p"iol'"U!id 1 III itiuiial ejeitement, an in lependent, traiiipiil, l.il.-e iiiid.^ ul' t'Mnijjht and of will (uitually with tli« predom- inant character of tii" iital weaknend). (lln»rvatioii bIiows further, that, in lb • ^'reit majoi^y ol ca-e-i, th ise condilionB which form the fiistlead- in(5 (jTuup precede tiiuse of tho second group ; that the latter appear generally in coniidpi ncefl and t«^luinatiou.^ of Ibo Ural, when lb« cerotiial alfec' ion has not been cured. • • • " Then the emotions are divided into two classes : those which tend to depression, re^oilting in melaurholia ; and those vrhich tend toeicite- lueut, rcsulling in mania, the condniun in which the disease of the brain constituies an exeiied vehement state id' the emotiooi tending to morbid energy and restlessneaa. • • • " .MeUncholia ulten pai-es into mania. The a^-proaeh of mania dis- phyg iUelf by great restlessness and loipiacity, accompanied with morhi 1 ai livity uf lliounbt. '• • • "• The (If It I'f mania upun the intiUe^t is to increcso lie rnpi lily and ipian'ily i t thought. In its m 'st moderate degrees this relaliin appi^rs as an exaggeraton uf the normal faculty of ihonghl. • • • • The pi iiicipali Heels uf mania upon the intolli(?eQCe Is incuherc'iee uri-fi'ig fn m prei ip'taiiun el thuiighl. The p'ltieni may c'lll lem elf Napibiin, the .\I"i^siali, God, la short, any great person. Il- ni«y helit ve lint he is iiiliniat. ly aeipi tinted with all the sciences, or ill'.r ti those aruuii.l liiiu all lb.! ireafUies of the world. • • • ".Mania miy he incuiniibiely ileveluped, in which ease the paient fl.uws a natiiril ai t v:ty and res'le-sness, adopts strange, eccentric priijects, and is «|it to be e.tcee lingly vain, cunning and intriguing, but ilois not manifest either ilifiiile niaiks of disease of the brain or p. liitive disluibniioe uf the intellect. This slate may be the flrst stop tuwsr Is mania ptup^r, or it miy c ntinne for a length of timi. * " " The earlier t'orin uf madness, melancholia and mania, Fome- tiniea piss into a ciiiililiun of I'l Ciing in which, however, particular d'lusiiins wliicli, in the earlier .£ej delusions is called monomania. The word baa been 1 lijecteil t.i oil ihe ground that il sugges'S thai the diabase israucb more limited than it leally is, involving nothing more than isolated mistaken beliefs not capable ol being dispelled by reason. It appears that this Ti*ir of lh« diM4M ii incorr««l. Hmh fli«r«lMa4 dUlatbitnn* uf All Iba nifiiUl |iii«iri ao'I |>ruri>Mi>t. It ai«jr ■MM M if tbara w«r« innrnly • | itrtUI lUilractiim of th« inlrlliKmc*, wblU, la r««lll7, th« citantlal ••■•'lumiU at tliouKlil, nuriiiitl mII'- coM«HMia««, anl % eorrrrt kiiiirroiatinti uf the •(irciaT ii>ilif uliiatiiy tml Ita MlatloB to thn world are iiiuirly par? «rti|iiiuiii, Ilia mur* do tb«r appMkr on luDtrflclBl eoiiti(|i>r«lion lo ti« ilnipla bhiI cthu Inciin. •idarabi* arrurt u( jiidKmanl. Hut how tniirh ilu miili arruri, afi'n in iha noal faTonilila o>ii>-i, diD'itr Ironi thiila niidHkaa wlilrli In tlir ianiK pro- esad fiom daflciau. kduwiadga 7 A long •iTlrt ol' pijrrlilcal diaonlart laail praoada tb«a , tbrj »rr Inwurdl)' d«riioii alT.irted Oommonly tha dlteaae, II it ruca Iti lull I'uurne, alTi'cli tha rniotiona firit, and aflarwarda the iolellrct and the will. It may aO't'Ct th« cmo- c llona, ailhar hy prodaclng morbid driirriaion or l)y producing morbid ; of feeling. two OMM, it li callad mflaneholta, '.n the Urond manlH rtelMmant of feeling, in thw flrtl, wliicli la much th« commonrr ol t'e M<*lHncholia oflM paiiailnto mania. Both malancbolla and mania cuininoily caoaa daloiMmt and falaa upinlona aa to exiating laria which augKeat thein- aahrai to tha miad of the aufrHrer, aa exuianations of hi* niorbi'l IVflingt. Tb*t« daltitittni are often accompauird by halluciiintioiii, which are decaptioni of the aena^a Mrlanoholia, mania and the deliiaiuiiH arlaing from tbam, often aupply puwerl'ul motives to do dcitructire and mu- obiavou acta. • • • "laianlty affecting the emotion* in the form of melanchniia and manta li oftaa auccaeded l)y Inianity HllVciing the inlullvot nnd the will. In thia atage of the dideaae the cliHracteriitic aymptoni la the cxiating parmanant ineurable drlujioni commonly oaiifd monomiinia. The exia- taoca of aoT aueh daiiiaiona indicaiea disorgnniiiation uf ail the mxiital powara, including not only tba power uf thinking correctly, but tha power of keeping before tiie mind, and applying ;u paiiicular caiea, gaoaral priociplea of conduct. • • k "The raiult of all thia la that inaanitr [irodacoi upun the mind the following effflota which muat be considered lu reference to the reapoaai- bllity of peraona abown to have done acta which would, but tor aucb elTecta, amount to crime. Inaanity powerfully aftuctf), or may affnet the knowledge by which our aotioos are guided, the fuelinga by which our of aetiona are prompted, the will by whch our actions are performed, whathar the word " will " is taken to mean rolitlun or a Bottled judgmant tba raaaon acting as a standing control on sacb actiuus as rolatu to it. Tha maani b/ which thene etfecta are producted are unnatural I'eelings, deluaiooa or ialaa opinions as to facta, hallucinations or deceptions of thatanaai; impulses to oarticuiar acts or olassca of acts, and in some •aaaa (it la aaid) a spectno physical Inability to reoogniae the difference batwaan moral good and evil aa a motire for doing good and avoiding aril." Tiiat being the statcmont hy, I suppose, the most eminent and recent aulbority upon the legal viow of what insanity is, soiarasitismaterial to thoquebtion now in hand, namely, reaponsibiliiy for criminal acts, 1 turn to the question of rospoDsibiiity according to the law. Amos says : "This topio which in many criminal cases excites an interest often- timaa of the most strained and afUioting sort is one surrounded with peculiar diffionltleE of its own, due to the complexity and vaiiety of thn faeta whioh it brings into consideration. These facts are partly physi- cal or belonging to that indistinctly marked region which lies between physical aod psychological science ; partly ethical or dependent on a giren person's apprehensions of right and wrong under abnormal or ezoaptional conditions, partly legal or political or dependent upon the aatount of legal reaponsibility attributable to varioua degrees of mental baalih, in view of the protection claimed by individual parsons, and uf a dua regard to the general safety uf the whole community. It is pro- bably rather in the ttrat of theae regioua, that ia the physical or paycho- logiaal one, that the main practical tlitiiculty is experienced, it is generally admitted in all systems of law that sufficient and satisfactory grounds ^ur exculpation are found in an actual mental incapacity, whether fixed or transient, of knowing at the movement of doing an aetthatit is forbidden by law, or at auy rate that it is morally repre- bensibla aouordiog to some moral notions in the agent's own mind— or in a physical incapacity to abitain fi'Om loing the act. The difficulty is presented at the moineul at which it is attempted to establish the fact ol either ot theae sorts of iacapAcity, and it is greatly exaggerated in caaea where a legal system instead of exculpating all insane persons aa a clau affects to ai tack ditlereni degrees of puniDbment to ditfurent measures of presumed moral responsibility •• * The records of criminal trials are full ot an almost endless diversity of conditions ol medical and moral theories to account for theui." Then Stephen's notion of the law, as it probably is, is given at page 14d ; extracted from the Digest : SB " fo act ia srima If tha person who doat it ia ai tha tima whan it ia irevaotad (either by dafacUva mantal power— or) by any diataao alTaet- Of bla mind t '' (ii) From knuwlog tha nature or i|uallty of his act, or " (t) K'rcni knowing that the aol la wrong, or "(c) from cuiilrolling h'a own cuuduot uniaai. tha ahaence of tha war of control haa lieen prcjiiead hy bis own default. Hut an act may >r a crime although tha miod of tha person who dy diaeaae, ifauch diaeaaa doaa not, In fact, produce ajion hia mind ona ut other of tha elTacts above mentiunad lu refvranoa to ibalaok." Then, in annwer to the question: What ia the moaning of a maniuc Ulioring under nuch a defect of reaaon that ho does ui)t know that he m doing what is w.-ong '( Ho ways : " It may he said that this description wonld apply only to a person in whom madneaa took the form of Ignorance of the opinions of mankind In griieral as to tha wlrkediieaa of Dartlcular Crimea— murder, for instance —and siirh a state of mind would, 1 suppose, be to rare aa to be practi- cally unknown. Thia aeema to ma a narrow view of tha auhject, not aumi >rted by tba language uf the Judgea. '' I think that any one would fall within the description in c|iieKtlon who wi«a dep'lved by liiaraaea altecting th« mind of the power of palling a rational judgmant on the moral cbaraotar of tha act which ha meant to ''•!. .-iuppose, for instance, that by reason of dlieai(< of the brain, a man's mind i» nilud with deluiiona, which, if true, would Uvt Juatily bit pro- poaed act, but which in themselves are su wild and astonishing as to mane it impossible for him to reason 4bont them calmly or to reason on matters connected with them, Ac, Ac." • • • He quotes Bucknill and Tuke as follows : — " It Is of the higheat Importance to distlngnisb between that part of wrong conduct which patients are able aud that which they are unable to control. *'Ulliiical pxperianca alone gives the power of distingnlihing between the controllable wrong conduct which ia amenable to moral inltuences, and that viulenoe utterly beyond tha ouuimand uf tba will which yields uniy to physiological ramedias." Then Sir James Stephen showA very clearly that the lan).;uage of the judges is doubtful and capable of ditl'orent interpretations. He adds this : " I understand by tha power of self control tha power of attend ag <• general principles ol conduct and distant motives aid compa i:>g tiem calmly and ateadily with immediate motives and with tha special pleasure or other advantage of particular proposed aetiona. " Will conaista in an exertion of this power of attention and compariarD up to the moment when tha conflict of motivea issues ia a volition or act. " Diseases of thebrrin and thanarvons aystemmayiaaay one of many waya interfere more or less with will ao underatood. Tiny may caata d< finite intellectual error, and if they do so tluir legal efl'ect ia that of other innocent mistakes of fact. "Far more frequently they affect tha will y "Hher destroying alto- gether, or weakening to a irraater or less eitc t, the power of steady, calm attention to any train of tbought and espec ially to general princi- ples and their relation to particular acts. Tney may weaken all tba mental faculties so aa to reauce life to a dream. They may act like a convulsion tit. They may operate as resistible motivi'S to an act known to be wrong. In other words they may destroy, they may weaken or they may have unaffected power of self control. " The practical inference from this seems to me that the law ought to recognise these various effects of madness. It ought, where madness ii proved, to allow the jury to return any ona of these verdicts : " (I) Oailty ; " |2) Ouilty; but his power of control was weakened hy insanity ; " (.3) Not guilty on the ground of insanity." I once again call the attention of the House to the sug- gestion as to what the law oueht to be, and I call attention to it because I shall point oat oefore I have done that this practical result of dealing with the second class of cases, namely: "guilty but his power of control was weakened by insanity," is achieved by other means to-day, namely, by the action of the Executive. Again, Stephen says : " Aa to the verdict of not guilty on tha ground of insanity, the for- going observations show in what cases, in my opinion, it ought to be returned, that is to say in tbose.casf a in which it is proved that the power ot self-control in respect of the particular aat is ao much weakened that it may be regarded as practically destroyed, either by general weaken- ing of the mantal powers, or by morbid excitement, oi by delusions wiiich throw the whole mind into disorder or whioh are evident that it bid been thrown into disorder by diaeases of which they are symptomi, or by impuiaes which are irresistible and not merely unresisted. * * "The position for whioh lawyers have always contended as toinsaDity is that parts of the conduct of mad people may not be affected by their madnoaa, and that if such parts of their conduct are criminal they ought to be puniahed for it. It may, however, be asked how ought they 10 to be punlshod? Oualit tliejr to bi punished in all re^p^cls like sane peo- ple ? To this I ihould certiiinly answer, yes, as far ag eevfrity Koej; no, H» far as the manner of puiiiahmont ^oes. The man in'iio, though mad, was fonnd gnilty without any quallHc«tlon of mnrdcr wonld hang, luit if the jury qualified their verdiet in tlie manner BURifested in reapeet of any offender I thinl( he should be sontenoed, !f the case were murder, tn penal servitude tor lite, or not less than, aa;^ 14 years, and in cases not capital to any punishment which might be inllicted on sane man. " The question what are the mental elements of reaponaibility is, and must be, a legal qiiestion. " I believe that by the exiating law of Rngland, those elements, so far as madness is concerned, are knowledge tli it an aet is wrong and power to abstain from doin;t it, and I thiuU it is the province of judges to declare and explain this to the jury. " I think it is the province of medical men to state, for the information of the court, such facts as experience has taught them, bearing upon tlic queBtioQ whether any given form of madness aflects, and in what man- ner, and to what ex'tent it affects either of th se elemcnti of raspjnsi- bility ; and I see no reason why, under the law as it stands, this division of labor should not be fulfy carried out." In tho case of the commission to which I have already ro- forred, Baron Bramwoi! sondH a letter to tho cominiaj^ionerrt stating the rosults of his murder trialn, tiom which I extract this : " Six peisons in six cases were aeipiitted on the ground of insanity, •nd rightly. I do not mean that the prijoners were as injane as the law requires, but the cases were those of real madness." Now, Sir, having thus attempted to state, not in my own words, but in words which I think will bo taken as those of the greatest authority, what are the doctrines of the law upon this subject, I propose to address myself for e, brief space to what was the evidence in this purticukir case ad- duced at tho trial as distinguished from other circumstances which might have been adduced. And first of all, tho most important point in the case is this: Tho man had been 'n^ane. Unquestionably ho had boon insane. J say that is a most important point, and therefore it is tirst to bo taken up. Dr. Roy, the medical superintendent of the Boaupurt Lunatic Asylum, was examined, and the subUance of his testimony was: " The prisoner was put In the asylum by the Quebec Government in June, 1876, and discharged January, 1878. " Dr. Roy, in discharge of his duty, studied his case and attended him. He was unquestionably insane at that time. The typo was mega- lomania. The symptoms or prominent features connected with religion, or power, pride and egotism. The patient cannot bear contradiction, and bet oines irritated. These are delusions. "On ordinary subjects, and whore not affected by the delusions, the patient seems to reason well, and may be clever. Riel had these symp- toms, ant" was at that time of unsound mind, and incapable of contro"lling b'" -^cls. ' Tr. disease may disappear, or intermit and recur. " Kit 'as of sjuud mind when released. "Tho vnt.ness heard the evidence given hy the witnesses as to Kiel's (Tords e.n.' cjndut during his visit to the North- West. ' The sn jiptoms were tii3 same as he had witnessed himself in the Myium at Beauport ■ <\nd he believed Kiel was insane at the time in ijuestion." 1^ ow t .corJing to I'll- "i.'tomont, if wo wore to assume that that v,.i8 lo con'^lnJ., Use case according to the opinion of Dr. fiOy ap '.o w'-.rtV his condition was during the rebellion, it won 'J JOi'^r !.hr, •':c'.j; ^o acquit him on tho ground of insan- ity. .T^ut ylxM ia i:.!.iis,, uiiJ and indisputable, is that tho mail wa.', iLs.av f :>in l676 to 18T8, and that tho symptoms had recurred m tho yoai" 1885 — the same symptoms which occurred when ho was unquestionably insane, from 1876 to 1878. Now, there was more evidence on this subject which I want to refer to at another period ; but I may say that what has been made very plain, though it was not proved on the trial, is that he had been in two other arylums, and I now refer to the probabilities of a recurrence of insanity. Brown, in tho "Medical Jurisprudence of Insanity," says: " One circumstance mnst not be overlooked in connection with the durability of insanity, and that is that there is a tendency to recurrence even after conipiate restoration to bealth. Perhaps of loO persons who h»ve an attack of mania and recover from it, fifiy will, after such recovery, again becon e insane. After insanity haj passed away there aeems to exist a hyper-sensitive condition of mind which is ill-suited to carry on the rough intercourse of the world and its society. Tho man who has recovered ii not sc well as he was before he was taken ill. Disease always chooses the weak for itj victims. D sease, like water, will t'lke the easiest way, and aa the Individaal who ha* recovered from insanity is weak, in that be lab.>rs under this hyper-sensitive condition of mind, he a second time falls unilor the wheels of some Juggernaut cataatrophu. Any great events in the world's history cause insanity ; but the eventj are seeds which h^ve fallen by the way-lide, they require to fall on ground well suited before they can spring up and bloitom in insanity— and the good ground is weakness. " Thus wo have insanity connected with child-birth, we have it con- nected with the weakness of childhood, with the weakness of age, with the ehinge of Ife and various bodily diseases, and fiaallv, we find it in cnn.iection with previous attacks of mental disease. The result then of these researchai, w).ii'!h have been made into the intricacies of thii subject, are tliese : that of twelve persons attacked with insanity, six recover and six die sooner or later ; that of the six who recover three only will remain eane during the rest of their lives, and that the recovery of the other three will not be permanent." The result of that is, that once it is found that a man ie nn- qucstionably insane, the chances are throe out of four either that ho will continue insane till ho dies, or if he reoovera, that the recovery will bo but temporary and be will once again become insane. Brown says again : " With regard to the one, when it does take place, it Is to be remem- bered initv !.o."'tl'. no more than Rome, is to be built up in a day. Health returns very gradually. In some cages it is true that a man is sane to- day and insane to-morrow, and that the change from insanity to sanity may be as rapid ; but it .9 certainly exceptional. It is easy to jump over a precipice, but if one wants to get to the top from the bottom be must b-) content to clamber up the hill. It need scarcely be added that as recovery of health is gradual so must the recovery of responsibility, or civil ability bo also a matter of time. But as the law cannot recognise the minute' distinctions which exist between to-da^ and to-morrow, it _ id it IS only nee •■emembcr that this recovery of mental strength is gradual, that due cannot recognise graduated responsibility, and only necessary to allowance may be m\de for those persons who have recently suSered from an attack of mental disease, and that it is safe to regard such persons as still irresponsite. At tlie same tiruo this presumjition is liable to be rebutted by proof of its oiiposite." In tho commission to wliich I have alretidy referred. Dr. Tuke, being examined, made those answers: " The fact is certain that insanity eonataatly erista with long lucid intervals, and that it is more or less patent at diffcren', times " Q. And thatthe patient fluctuates ioaconditlon between what may be termed sanity and iusauity, the line bbtr^een whiiib is not easily dtlinable?— A. V( s ; that is a constant fi^rm of what we call inianity with lucid iutervald, or injauity with remissions, or recurrent inaanity." Then Clouslon gives one example, that of a patient " C.Y." of whom he says ; " Ilia mental condition was at th:it timeexactly that intenee exaltation, that morbid mental' ixpansion,' that 'ambitious delirium,' or 'mania of grandeur' which we find so commonly in general paralysia, and which some physicians suppose to be characteristic of that disease. * * In three mouths he had become quiet in manner, self compoaed and rational, but had just a suggedtion of bia former state of laina in being too pleased with things and too grateful tor little kindnetsea. Hisfrienda thought him well and he was removed borne. • • • • In seventeen days he w.'is back again. He would come up and be moat pleased to aee you, and in a moment, sometimea with aome little provo- cation, such as your not agreeing at once with him that he was an earl and sometimes without he would strike you suddenly, v .y often going down on his knees immediately after and in a theatrical manner begging your pardon nu 1 hoping he had not otf.'uded you. • • • • • Uo labored under chronic maniacal exaltation." Then comes the instance of "D. J.," who was adiiiit- tod, October, 18')G, discharged, January, 1S(J7; admitted April, 1870, discharged May, 1870; admitted, August, 1n71, discharged, September, 1871; admitted, Daoember, 187;J discharged, I-'obriiary 1873 ; admitted, February, 1876, dis- charged, May, 1875; admitted, August, 1877, discharged, September, 1877 ; admitted, November, 1880, discharged, January, 1^81; admitted, December, 1831, discharged, March, 188i, ami he gives several other instances showing the con.stanl reciirrorico of insanity. 1 do not think that too much importance can bo attached to the circumstances of the unquestioned and unquestionable insanity of Louis Riel, as proved liy the facts to which I refer at this precedent time, and to the character of his alleged illusions or delu- sions, ns yon please to call them, at tho later date, hav- ing regard to tho knowledge and experience we have with retoronco to tho probability of recurrent insanity. It seems n l; to mo tho oircumstanccs nbow that ho was laboring under insane delusions on religion and politicH, prior to, and dur- ing tho outbroak, and that those doiumons wore diioutly connected with the crime with which ho was chargod. Uo beliovod himself a prophet, a priest, a religious potentate; he had viifions; he had irrational ideas as to foreign policy, as to the lands and the division of them, as to other nation- alities, OS to religion, as to politics, as to his influcnoo, us to his mission, and as to the Meti-t nation. Of thoso facts I think tho evidence taken at tho trial afforded abundant testimony. I think it affords abundant testimony as to his condition anterior to the outbroak, and ' have taken tho evidenoe chronologically. Now, tho evidence which was given by tho priests as to his condition is to bo accepted, with this observation — that if it were possible for any ono to suppose that any course of conduct on his part could have influenced them to swerve from tho accurate, honest truth— if it were possible, which 1 am tho lust to suggest, that such a thing could bo, it is dear that thoy would not have boon swerved in favor of this man, from whom thoy had suffered so much, who had oast aside their religion, who had profaned their churches, who had insulted thomselvos, who had assumed their position, who had led away their flocks, who they thought was instrumental, directly or indi- rectly, for the murder of two of their order, who hud caused all the misery of the people in benodting whom their whole lives had been spent— I say it is impossible to suppose that they could have boc^ sivorvod in favor of this man by anything in tho way of reeling; and at that time he had not recanted his loligious errors. JJutthoy state notonly opinions, but facts, and lactsof tho most import- ant character. Father Andre says on religion and politics he and Uiel frequently conversed, against his will ; because on these subjects Kiel was no lonner the same man ; it Boemod as if there wore two men in him ; he lost all control of himself on those questions. T-vonty times ho told Riol he would not speak on those subjects, because LViol was a fool, did not have his intelligence of mind ; that was the witness' experience; he had the principle that he was an autocrat in religion and politics, and he changed iiis opinions as he wisheJ ; his ideas changed ; to-day ho admitted this, and to-morrow he denied it ; he bolicvod himself infulliblo ; ho would not allow the least opposilio . at all ; immediately his physiognomy changed and he became a ditlorent man. 'J hen comes a most important act. All the priests met and they disoubsed whether it was possible to allow Kiel to continue in his religious duties, and they unani- mously decided that he was not responsible on these questions ; that he could not suff'er any contradiction ; that he was completely a fool in discussing these questions ; it was like showing a rod flag to a bull. Now, remember that these statements of Kiel to Father Andr^ wore made and these conclusions reached long before the outbreak, and before, as ne says, he had actually risen against the priests. These erroneous ideas, and these manifestations of irregularity of mind, wore during the latter part of 1884 and the early part of 1885, before tho rebellion. Father Fonrmond says that he was present at this meeting of the priests, that it was he who raised the question ; and he states the facts on which his view rested, lie says : Before the roballion it seemed as if liioro were two men in the prisoner; in private conversation he was affable, polite, pleasant and charitable ; if contradicted on religion and politics he became a different man and would be carried away with his feelings ; he would use violent expressions. As soon as the outbreak began he lost all control of him- self; he often threatened to destroy all the churches. lie had extraordinary ideas on the subject of the Trinity ; according to his ideas it was not God who was present in the Host but an ordinary man six feet high. As to politics ho wanted first to go to Winnipeg and Lower Canada and the United States, and even to Franco ; and he said " Wo will take your country oven," and then he was to go to Italy anil overthrow the Pope, and then he would cnooee another Pope of his own making ; he said something to the etToct that ho would appoint himself as Pope. As the agitation was progressing he became a great deal more excitable ; at the time of the rebellion Father Fourmond thought him insane. At one time when there was a gathering ho kept following the witness irUo the tents and compelled him to luave the place and cross the water. There was a very extraordinary expres- sion on bis face; ho was excited by the opinions ho had expressed on religion, lie t-aid to the women: "Woe unto you if you go to the i>riests, because you will all be killed by the priests." All of a sudden, when tho witness came to the boat, Kiel came up with great politeness and said: "Look out. Father; I will help you to get on the boat." In an instant ho passed from rage to great polite- ness. Once again at tho Council the witness was brought up for trial ; Kiel was enraged, and culled h:m a little tiger; but when tho witness was leaving, he passed again from rage to extraordinary politeness, offered a carriage and took the witness' parcel and carried it for him. Then Charles Nolin (whoso conduct seems to have been inconsistent and certainly unfriendly) says, that about a month after prisoner arrived, say the end of July, he showed hira a book he had written in the States. The tirst thing there was to destroy England and Canada, and also to destroy Eome and the Pope. lie said ho hud a divine mission to fulfil, and showed Bishop Bourget's letter, eleven years old, as proof. Kiel showed him a book written with buffalo blood, tho plan in which that was, after taking England and Canada, he would divide Canada, and give Quebec to the Prussians, Ontario to the Irish and tho North- West Territories he divided between the European nations. The Jews were to have a part, and the Hungarians and Bavarians. As to the money lie wanted from the Government, ho said if ho got tho money he wanted from the Government, he would go wherever the Government wished to send him. He told Father Andre, if ho was an embarrassment to the Govern- ment by remaining in the North- West, ho would even go to tho Province of Quebec. He said also if he got tho money he would go to tho United States and start a paper anu raise the other nationalities in the States, llesaid: " Before the grass is that high in this country; you will see foreign armies in this country." He said: " I will commence by destroying Manitoba, and then I will come and destroy the North-Wost and take possession of the North- West." He told the witness that ho considered himself a prophet ; one evening there was a noiso in Kiel's bowels, and Kiel told him that it w.is his liver, and that he had inspirations which worked through every part of his body. Ho wrote his inspirations on a sheet of paper, and said he was in- spired. Whenever the word " police " was pronounced, he became very excited. He proposed a plan to tho witness, and said he had decided to take up arcs, and the first thing was to fight for the glory of God, for the honor of religion, and for the salvation of our souls. Before the i)uck Lake fight, he was going about with a crucifix a foot and a half long, taken out of tho church. Now, all those things save the lust are bofore the rebellion, and a great portion of them in tho year bofore tho robellion, the year 1884. Then, P. (larnot proves that about the beginning of the outbreak, Kiel talked to him about changing tho Pope, wanting to name Bishop Bourgot Pope of the new world; ho said that tho spirit of Elias was with him ; he wanted the people to acknowledge him as a prophet, and said ho had the spirit of Elias in him and was prophesying. Another time ho declared that he was representing St. Peter. Almost every morning ho would come in front of tho people and say such and such a thing would happen. When ho slept at the witness' house ho was praying loud all night; there was no one else there. Uo would not stand 12 any contradiotion by anyone. He several times said how this country was to be divided into seven Provinces, one for the French, Germans, Irish, and others ; he mentioned Italians ; ho expected the assistance of an army of several rationalities; he mentioned the Jews, he expected their assistance and money, and he was going to give them a Province as a reward for their help. He had no doubt of his success, or that any obstacle could prevent him from succeeding ; he always mentioned that he was going to succeed, tnat he had a divine mission, and was an instru- ment in the hands of God. The witness thought the man was crazy, because he acted very foolish, and communi- cated to others at the time this impression of him. George Ness says that at the btgiuning of the outbreak he wit- nessed a difficulty between Biel and Father Moulin, in which Kiel accused Bishop Grandin and Bishop Taoh^ of being thieves and rogues ; Pathor Moulin wished to speak to the people, Riel refused and said : " No, we won't let him speak; take Jmaway,takehimaway, we will tiehim." Riel said ho would take poasession of the jhurch. Father Moulin said he protested. " Look at him," said Riel, " he is a Protes- tant." He said that the Spirit of God was in him. Father Moulin said he was making a schism in the church. Riel said Rome had fallen. " Home est tombie," and that the Pope was no longer legally Pope ; that the Spirit of God was in him (Riel), and that he could tell future events. Dr. Willoughby says : At the comraoDcement he saw Riol. He said his pro- clamation was at Pembina, that it was going forth, and he would be joined by Indians and half-breeds, and that tho United States was at his back. He intended to divide the country into seven portions ; he mentioned as parties, Bavari- an8,Poles,Italians,Germans and Irish. There was to be a Now Ireland in the North- West. These nationalities were going to assist him in the rebellion, before the war was over, and they would have their portion. Ho mentioned tho Irish of the United States, the Germans, the Germans, Italians, Bavarians and Poles. Ho put Germany and Ireland twice ; first, the Irish and Germans of the United States, then Germany and Ireland themselves. The proposition did not appear rational to the witness, who also proves the «xcitoment of Riel. Sannderson says : Riel told him that he was going to divide the country into sevenths, one- seventh for Canadians or white settlers, one for tho Indians, one for the half-breeds, three-sevenths to remain to support the Government. He said be had cut himself loose irom Rome altogether, and would have nothing more to do with the Pope. Walters says : Riel told him that the land was to be divided — one-seventh to the pioneer whites, one-seventh to the French half-breeds, one-seventh to the church and schools, and the balance was to bo Government lands. He said that if the whites struck a blow, a thunderbolt from heaven would strike them, that God was with their people. Lasb says : He mentioned that he was going to give one- seventh to the Indians and one-seventh to the half-breeds. He had been waiting fifteen years, and at last his opportu- nity had come. Astley proposed an exchange of prisoners, but Riol came up and said he could not see it in that light, but that he would exchange them for Hon. L. Clarke, Registrar Sproat and McKay. We know what an exchange of prisoners is, but Riel proposed that the most important fiersonagcs on tho other side should be given up to him in ieu of inferior prisoners on tho same side whom ho had in his hands. Jackson says Riol told him his brother's mind was affected ; that it was a judgment on him for opposing Kiel. Ho talked of giving one-seventh of tho proceeds of the land to the Polos, one-seventh to the half-broods, and one- seventh to tho Indians, and some to tho Hungarians, and so on. I was surprised to hear it stated that it was a mark of sanity in Riel that ho should have thought Jackson insane, while we know that inmates of the insane asylums know that their neighbors are insane and dincuRs tho question of their insanity. Mackay had a conversation with Riel. H« appeared very excited and said . — " It wai blood, and the first blood they wanted was mina. Tbera w»re some liitle dishes od the table, and he got hold of a spoon and said: Tou bare no blood— you are a traitor to TOur people. Toar blood ia frosen, and all the little blood you hare will be there in fire miontes, putting thegpoon up to my face and pointin(f'to it. I said: If youthuk you are beneliting your cause by taking my blood you are quite welcome to it. He called his people and the coaimittee, aad wanted to put me on trial for my life, and Qarnot gut up and went to the table with a sheet of paper, and Gabriel Dumont took a chair on a syrup keg, and Riel called up the witnesses against me. He 4aid I was a liar, and he told them that I had said all ihe pnople in that section of the country had risen against them. He said it was not so, that it was only the peoj^le in this town. He said he could prove that I was a liar by Thomas Scott." Then goes on tho account of tho trial during which Riel wm up stairs. And then " When he came down, he, Riel, apologised to me for what be bad said, that he did not mean it to me personally, that he had the greatest respect for me personally, but that it was my cause he was speakioic against and he wished to show he entertained great respect for me, ha also ap ilogised in French to the people there, and hs said as I wasgointf out that he wai rery sorry I was against him. That he would be glaa to have mo with them, and it was not too late for me to join them yet." Young says : " Riel explained that at Duck Lake he gave three commands to fire. 1. In the name of (iod wlio made us reply to that. 2. Then they fired and Urozier's men replied: and Riel said ; Inlhe name of Ood the i:ion who saved iiB reply to that. 3. In tho name of U|d the Holy Uhost who lanctiSes us reply -to that." He gives a like account in loss detail to half a douD witnesses of his actions at that time ; and General Middleton says: "Of course I bad heard constantly before about reports of his insanity. I beard for instance one or two of the people that escaped from bim, BCouiSj half.breeds. ie man, I remember, told me ' Oh I Riel is mad, be is a fool.' He tnld me what ho was doing at Batoche. So that I really had heard it, but I came to the conclusion he was very far from being mad or a fool." To that is to bo added the prisoner's own conduct at the trial the statements he made, even in tho course of his interrup- tions during the trial, with reference to these points, and then in his addresses. In them, you find bim declare that he does not plead insanity, and you find him saying he was Hhowing that calmnops which they said he could not show. He obviously, in tho address ho made to the jury, was doing his best to restrain himself in respect to those matters which had been presented as proofs of his insanity, with the view and in the hope, so far as was consistent with his assumed position, that he might prevent the jury from coming to the conclusion that he was insane . For instance, this extraordi- nary division of the territory into sevenths among diflTerent nationalities was pressed very much. What does he say to that ? He says : " A good deal has bsen sa'd about the settlement and division of lands, A good deal had been said about that. I do not think mv dignity to-day here would allow me tc mention the foreign policy, but if I w&] to explain to you or if I had been allowed to make the questions to witntsses, those qaeBtions would b>ive appeared in an altogether different light." A little after, when tho verdict had been given and he was showing his reasons against the sentence, you will find he developed tho policy which, at this tiino he preferred not to do, and rostrainod himsolf, as these people often do under similar circumstances, in order to obtain that which he desired, a verdict which would not find him insvtne. He speaks in tho same way, tba'iking (General Middleton and Captain Young fsr proving him as ho bjlieves he is sane. Having touched the question of foreign policy, as he calls it, in the landn, ho tools called ipon to deal with this ques- tion of inspiralir. , and ho attempts to explain that matter. He says : " It is not to be sipposed that the hilf-breeds acknowledge m« «s a prophet if they lia I not S'^en that I could see something Into the fature. in am blessed without measare 1 can s^e something into the future, we 18 alltM Into the future more or less. Ae vhat kind of a prophet woiilil I come T Would it be a prophet who could all the time have n stick in hia hand and threatenioKi a prophet of evil ? If the hRlf-breedi Imve a«kDowledf(ed me ae a prophet, it on the other side priests rnme Hnil nny that I am polite, if there are (general officers, goo'l men, come into this box and prove that I am polite, prove that I am decent in m^ manners, in rombininK all together yon have a decent prophet. An insHne m^n cannot withhold his insanity, if I am insane my heart will tell whit is in ma. Laat night while I was taking exercise the spirit who guiiles ani aiiiata me and conaolea me, told me that to-morrow somebuiy will comu ■I'aider,' and help me. I am consoled by that While I wnsreoiirrinf^ to my Ood, to Our God, I aaid : But woe to me if you not help me, and thoae words came to me in the morning ; ' In the niorniag some one will oome t'aiJer, that ia to-day. ' I said that to my two guards ami you •an go for the two guards. I told them that if the spirit that directs me ia the apiritoftruth It is to-day thati expect help. This mornini; the guod doctor who has care of me came to ma and said: 'You will spcnii to-day before the court,' I thought I would not be allowed to speak, thoae words were given to me to tell me that I would have the lilxirty to speak. There was one French word in it, it meant, I believe, that there was to be some French influence in it, but the most part English. It ia true that my good lawyers from the Province of Quebec have given me good advice. Mr. Nolin came into the box and said that Mr. Kiel said that he heard a noise in his bowels and that I told him that it meant something. I wish that be had aaid what I said, what I wrote on the paper of which he apeaka, perhaps he can vet bo pat in the box. I aaid to Nolin " Do yon hear? " Yes, I said there will be trouble in the North-Weat and was it so or not, has there been no trouble in the Noith-Weat? Besides Nolin knows that among his nationality which is mine, he knows that the half-breeds as hunters can foretell many thiiga perhaps some of you have a special knowle'^ge of it. I have sepn lialf- Dreeda who aay: ' My hand ia abaking, this part of my hand is shaking, yon will see auch a thing to-day,' and it happens. Others will say : 'I faei the fleah of my leg more in aueh a way, it is a sign of such a thing, and it happens.' They are men who know that I speak right. If the witness apoke of that fact with which he mentioned to show that I wag inaane ha did not remember that perhapa on that point be ia in^tane himaelf. beoanae the halt-breed by the movement of his hand, sometimes of hia sooulders, aometimes his leg, can have certain knowledge of what will happen. To bring Sir John to my feet, it was well reported it woald appear far more reasonable than it has been made to appear. Mr. Blake, the leader of the Opposition, is trying to bring Sir John to his feet in one way. He never had as much at stake as I had, although the Province of Ontario ia great it is not as great as the North-West. " I am glad that the Grown have proved that I am the leader of the balf-breeds in the North-West, I will perhaps be one day acknowledged aa more than a leader of the half-breeda, and if I am I will have an opportunity ot being ackn^trledged as a leader of good in this great eonntry. " One of the witnesses aaid that I intended to give Upper Canada to the Iriab, if he had no mystery he would have seen that Upper Canada could not be given to the Irish without being given to England, he rested only npon his imagination. "There is another thing about the partition of the lands into seven. I do not know if I am prepared to speak of it here because it would become public information, there is so much at stake that it I explained that theory Canada would not very long remain quiet.' ' Then, he says about the delegations : " The half-breeda also know that I told them that I would be punished, that I did not say it of my own reaponsibility but that I aaid it in the same way as I had told them other things. It was said to me ihat tha nation would be punished. Why ? Because she had oonsent^d to leave Rome too quick. What ia the meaning of that? There was a discussion about it too quick. They said that they should do it at once. Too quick does not mean too soon. If we say yes, it shows no consideration to the man. If God wants something and if we say yes, that is not the way to answer him ; He wants the conscience to say yes : Oh my Qod I do thy will j and because the half-breeds quickly separated from Rume iu such a quick manner it was disagreeable to God and they were punisl^ed, and I told them it would happen — fifty of those who are there can prove it. But you will say ; 'You did not put yourself as a prophet.' The nine- teenth centurv is to be treated in certain ways, and it is probably for that reason I have found the word ' Kxovede.' I prefer to be called one of the flock. I am no more than you are, I am simply one of tht; tlock, e^nal to the rest. If it is any satisfaction to the doctor to know what kmd of insanity I have, if they are going to call mv pretensions insanity, I say humbly, through the grace of God I believe i am the prophet of the new world. "I wish you to believe that I am not trying to play insanity ; there ie in the manner, in the standing of a man, the proof that he is siuceru, not playing. You will say 'What have you got to say ? ' I hav^ to utioud to practical results. Is it practical that you be acknnwledged as a prophet? Is it practical to aay it T I thinV. if the half-breeds have ack- nowledged me, as a community, to be a prophet, I have reason to believe that it IS beginning to become practical. I do not wish for my satisfac- tion the name of prophet. Generally the title is accompanied with such a bnrden, that if there is satisfaction for your vanity thero is a check to it." Then, the moment the verdict was given and tho prisoner was called to speak in respect of eentonce, ho congratulntos himeeir, and thanks the jury for having found him eano, and sayH : " At least, if I were going to be executed, I would not bo exocutod as an insane man." Then he goes on to say : " Must not I lake advantage of the situation to show that they are right and that I am reasonable, and yesterday, whan I said by repeat- ing the evidence which has been given against me, when I said in con- clusion that you had a decent prophet, I hava just to-day the great opportunity or proving it is so, besides clearing me of the stain of insa- nity, cleanng my career of the stain of ioaani'r. I think the verdict that has been given against me is a proof thai am more than ordinary myself, but that the circumstances and the h' p that is given is more than ordinary, are more than ordinary, and although I consider myself only as others, yet by the will of God, by his Providence, by the circumstances which nave surrounded me for fifteen years, I think that I have been called to do something which at least in the North-West nobody baa done yet, and in some way I think that to a certain number of people the verdict against me to-day is a proof that may be I am a prophet, may be Riel is a prophet. He auffera for it. Now, I have been liunted as an elk for fifteen years. Oavid haa been aeventeen, I think. I would have to be about two years still ; if the misfortunes that I have had to go through were to be as long as those of the old David, I would have two years still, but I hope It will oome sooner." Then he prooeeds to describe what he had kept conoealod ill llie cai lier speech — the question of the lands. Ho says : " The half-breeds had a mill!, n and the land grant of 1,400,000 acres owned about 9,500,000, if I mistake not, which ia about one-seventh of the land of Manitoba. You will see the origin of my insanity and of my foreign policy. One-seventh of the land was granted to the people, to the halt-breeds of Manitoba, Bnglish and French, Protestant and Catholic. There was no distinction whatever, but in the sub division, in the allotment of those lands between the half-breeds of Manitoba, it came that they had 240 acres of land. Now, tha Canadian Government say, that we will give to the balf-breeda of the North-West, 240 acres, ir 1 was insane I would aay yes, but as I have had, thank God, all the time, the cunacientiousnesa that I had a certain degree of reason, I have made up my mind to make use ot it, and to aay that one-seventh of the lauds in Manitoba, as the inauguration of a principle in the North-West, had to bring to the half-breeds of the North-West, at least as soon as possible, the guarantee for the future that a seventh of the lands wilt also be given to them. And seeing and yourself understanding how it is difficult for a small population as the half-breed population to have their voice heard, I aaid what belongs to us ought to be oura. Our right to the North- Weat is acknowledged, our co-proprietorahip with the Indians is acknowledged, sinoe one-seventh of the lands is given us, but we have not the means to be heard, what will we do 7 I said to some of my friends: If there is no other way, we will make the people who have no country understand that we have a country here which we have ceded on condition, we want the seventh of the land, and if the bargain is not kept, it is null and void, and we have no right to retreat again, and if we cannot have our seventh of the lands from Canada, we will ask the people of the Slates, the Italians to come and help us as immigrants, the Iriali I will count them." " Now, it is my turn, I thank you. I count them and I will show you if 1 made an insane enumeration of the partieu. I say, we will invite the Italians of the States, the Irish of the States, the Bavariana of the Slates, Poles of the States, Belgians ot the States, and if they come and help us here to have the seventh, we will give thtm each a seventh ; and to show that we are not fanatics, that we are not partisans, that we do not wish only for the Catholics, but that we have a consideration for those who are not Catholics, I said, we will invite the Danes. We will invite the Swedes, who are numerous in the States, and the Norwegians, to come around anl aa there are Indiana and half-breeda in British (Jolum- bia, and aa British Columbia is a part of the ii'^mense North-West, we said, not only tor ourselves, but speaking for our children, we wiil make the proposition that if they help ua to nave our seventh on the two sides of the Kocky Mountains, they will each have a teventh ; and if the Jews will help us, and on the condition that they acknowledge Jesas Christ as the Son of God and the only Saviour of human kind, if they help us with their money, we will give them one-seventh. And I said, also, it the principle of giving one-seventh of the lands is good in the North-West, if tho principle of giving one-seventh of the lands to the balf-breels in the North-West is good, it ought to be good in the east also, and I said, it it ia not p laaible that our views ahould be heard, we will— I, as an AmTican citiien — I will invite the Germans of the Stateaand I will say : 1( yi a e/er have an opportunity of crossing the line in the east, do it, ami help the Indians and the half-breeda of the east to have a revenue equivalent to about one-seventh. And what would be the reward of the Germans ? The reward of the Germans would be, if they were successful, to take a part of the country and make a new German-Indian world i>ome- where in British North America. But that is the last resort, and if 1 had not bad a verdict of guilt against me I would have never said it. Yesterday it was just those things that I have avoided to aay, when I said, I have a reason not to mention them. And when I said, as one of the witnesses said, that my proclamation was in Pembina, I think I am right, because of this trial. You see that my pretensions is that I can apeak a little of the future events : My trial has brought out the question of the seventh, and although no one haa explained th<^ things as I do now, still there ia enough said about the sevenths of the lands and the division of the lands into sevenths, seven nationalities, while it ought to have been aaij between ten nitionalities, that by telegraph to-day my procUmn- tion is in Pembina truly, and the States bare my ideas. They have 14 my ideas. * * * And Oahrifl Durooiit, on tbo other tide of the line, is that Unbriel Dumoiit inactive 7 I believe not. He is trying to ■«▼• me fr.^m 'his box. This ia no thrpot. I have wiitten it. I bare written a dnciimt nt of that Idnd, and pnt it in the hands ot Captain Dean, three weelw Sweden, po that those who spoke of tLc lands of the great ^orlll■^V^•,'^t to be ilivldcd in se.-en forgot that it was in ten, the Creni li in .MHni'oba, 'he I'avRrlan', the Itxiians, the Poles and the Irish in the .Vurtli-Wcit, and thi^u five un the o. h r side too." Then again he says : " N'ot insanity, beeanae it i' disposed of. bnt whether I am a dereiver or an imposttr 1 have said to my lawyers; ' I bare written things which Were -jaicl to me last night, and which have taken place to-day.' I aaid that before the court opened last night the spirit that guides and assists nio told me : ' The court will make an effort.' Yourhonor, allow me to speak of your charge, which at'peared to me to go on one side. The court niHde an ell'irt, and I think that word was justified. At the same time there was another thing aaid to me : ' A commission will sit; there will be a commission.' I did not hear yet that a commission is to take place. I asked for it You will see if I am an importer thereby. " In Baioche many things which I eaid have already happened. It was said to me: ' Vot f^r from here.' And that is why I never wanted to send the half breeds far. I wanted to keep them, and it was said to me; 'I will not b'tr u to work lief.ire 12 o'clock' and when tbe first battle opened I wi^s taking my dinner at Duck Lake. When the btttle began it was a little after 12 o'clock. ' I will not begin to work before 12 o'clock.' And what has happened? And it was said to me: 'If you don't meet the troops on >iicii a road you will have to meet them at the foot of a hill, and the half-breeds facing it.' It is said my papers hare been published If they have been published examine what took place, and yo i will see we hail to meet General Middleton at the foot of the h'll. It was also told nie that men would stay in the btUe prairie, and the spirit spoke of those who would remain on the belle prairie, hud there were men who remained on the belle prairie." Now, those were tho events of the ti ial itself, and apart al'ogothor from tiio evidence which is before ut, allhongh not olfii'ial. There was, lie.-iides, tho evidence of tho other medical witnysHiH, Dr. Clark was called and examined. He had examined Ricl three times, had heard the evidence, and if he was not feigning, ho was insane to the limit of irrespon- sibility. But it takes 'ong to find out that a man is insane. Dr. Wallace, who, 1 bo'iovo, is the Superintendent of the Hamilton Lunatic Aylum, examined him once and heard the eviticiico. He could only say that he did not find oat — ho might bo insane. It takes long to find out whether a man is insane. Dr. Jukes, who was a specialist, and was tho police surgeon in charge of tho prisoner, had never examined or tested him at all. Ho also says it takes a long time to find out, though ho had not found out anything to show his insanity. Now 1 do not, myself, believe that it can be at all soriou.>uou wholly froo from Ihut common talii, thai there should bo no interference with the verdict or sentence in capital cashes — talk which, if it were acted on, would render it impossible to maintain capital punishment on the Statute- book lor twelve monihs in any civilised country. Now, I shall prove the errors of this view by statistics. My the statistics of the administration of justice in England and Wales, during ten years before la63, the pro- portion of convictions to committals for all classes of crimes taken together, w.is 70 to 71 per cent.; and I may tay that there is a curious run of similarity in many years in both England and Canada in that regard, llut lor murder during those ten years the proportion of con- victions to committals was only 23^ per cent., or one-third of the number of convictions and committals for all cases. While thus you find, in the first place, that a much smaller proportion of persons in proportion to those charged were convicted of murder than in the general run, you find the Eroportion of executions to the convictions for murder was ut 60 per cen.t, and that 40 per cent, wee commuted. In the 20 years from 1861 to 1880 there were 512 capital sentences for murder. Out of those there were only .79 executions, or 54^ per cent., and 238 not executed, or 45^ per cent. In the 5 years from 1880 to 1884 there were 168 capital sentences. Out of these only 80 executions took place, or 48 per cent, 88 wore not executed, or 62 percent. Thus there are now fewer executions in proportion to sen- tences than there were. In the first period I gave you there were something more than half, during the second period there were fewer but still a little more ihan half, but for the last available period leas than half those sentenced wore executed. Let me give you the individual oases which came before Mr. Justice Stephen in three years lie sentenced ten persons to death ; four wore executed, six commuted, four because thd moans by which they caused death were neither inte/^ded nor in themselves likely to cause death. In these cases, under an improved definition, the prisoners would have been found guilty of manslaughter ; one, because after the conviction it appeared probable that he had received provocation, and to reduce the offence to manslaughter ; one because the convict was sub- ject to epileptic fits, which rendered her frequently uncon- scious and had permanently impaired her powers, though (ec, as many sentences are commuted aa are executed, and in England and Wales, more. There it is the exception to execute, and why? Because it is not fitting there any more than in other cases to apply as a rule the extreme, the maximum penalty of th*) law to this class of crimes. Now, Sir, I have spoken up to this point of the capital offence of murder, because it is in jiraclico — or was in practice until the 16lh of Xovombur, in modern time.> — the only capital otfenco. Tho old law as to high troawoii, of course, remains, but milder viows have long prevailed with reference to political otronco.s. Since June, 1848, in England, and since a later peri.jd horo, the same ott'ences precisely, the same character of oUurioos may bo, and since that time, an far as I know, have always boon in England, tried under the milder Act as trcawon- felony in respect of which tho maximum sentence is impri- sonment for life. I do not mean that this ob-icrvation applies to inolatcJ acts of murder which arc generally excluded from amnesties and ar€ tried us such. If, there- fore, there be any distinction with reference to the appli- cation of the general principles of the administration of criminal justice to which I have adverted and which I have established, if there be any distinction between murder and treason, it ia not what baa been intimated from tho other side. It is not that your law is more severe in the case of treason ; it is that your law is milder in the case of trea- son. It is that while you continue in the case of murder to provide only the machinery under which tho aontence must bo capital, yet you have provided in the case of treason, and you have used in every c • e in the North- West except one, a milder procedure, ai )ther law in respect to which the maximum penalty is imprisonment for life for the same offence. There is the distinction aa it is enshrined in the Stfttute-book in England and in Canada, and you cannot from that make out this con- clusion which hon. gentlemen opposite have made of treason as the highest crime. I know there ia a aenae in wbioh it may bo ao regarded. You may talk about the life of the State, the body politic, the corporation, and ao on ; but I think 1 slia'il show before I ait down how much there is in all that. The distinction, then, is that. Now, Sir, I ask what more is to ba said, after this statement, of its being a duty on tho part of tho Executive to carry out tho sentence of toe law ? 1 maintain that there ia no duty on the part of the Exeoative, to leave tho law to take its course, when, in this parti- cular caae, it is the maximum punishment which the law obliges the judge to award, and when as I have shown, as often as not, that maximum punishment is not inflicted. In truth and in fact, diagaise it how ynu will, in England, in Prance, in Canada, it is the Executive that awarda the real sentence of the law in capital cases ; and in this particular case tho duty of the Executive was emphasised and enlarged by the special proviaion in the North-West Territories Act, which having a due regard, or some regard, to the comparative weakness of the tribonal and tho circumstances of the caae, made a apecial provision under which the sentence was not to bo executed until the pleasure of the Executive was known ; which tho learned Chief Justice of Manitoba described as providing, in fact, throe trials: First, before the judge and jury ; secondly, before the court in Manitoba ; and thirdly, before the court in Ottawa — the Executive of the country. Now, Sir, I propose to reinforce the position which I have taken as flowing inevitably from the statistics and the reasoning which I have given you, as to the principlej and the practice of the exercise of what is called the prerogative of mercy; and first of all, let me deal with it in capital oases generally. I quote from the same learned authority to which I before referred, Sir Jamet Siephen's work : " The iiibject uf the diacretton exercised by the judges in coumoa caseB, and by the ExecutiTe QjvernmeDt (practically the Hume Secre- tary) in capital cases appears to me to be little uaderstood. As to thil it mu9i bo remembered that it is practically impossible to lay down aa infii'xible rule by which the same punishment must in every caae_ be inflicted in respect of every crime falling within a given definition, because the degrees of moral quiet and public danger involved in offencea which bear the same name and fall under the same definition must of ■eceesity vary. There mast therefore be a discretion in all cases as to the puniBbment to be inflicted. This discretion must from the nature of tho CHse be vest.'d either in the judge who tries the case or in the Kicc.utive Government or in the two acting together " From the earliest period of our history to the present d»y the di«- (■rotinij in misdemeHnor at common law has been vested in the judge. • Tlio cnses wh'ch still continue to be capital — practicallj[ murder and ti'i'ai-on— sii|)ply tho only instances worth noticing in which th« judge hts CO (iisorelioa. The discretiuu in such cases is vested in the Secre- tary of ytato. " It was nfver intended that capital punishment shonld be inflicted whenever sentence of death was passed. Even when the criminal law was mo?t severe the power of pardon was always regarded as lupple- mentary to it, and as supplying that power of mitigating Sdntences of death which the words of the law refused. • • • " The power of pardon, in the exercise of which Her Majesty, advised by the Home Secretary, still remains unaltered, and in reipect of capital sentences, it answers the purpose fulfilled in other caaes by the discre- tionary power entrusted to the judges. The fact that the punishment ot death is not inflieted in every case in which sentence of death ia inflicted, proves nothing more than that murder, as well as other crimes, has its degrees, and that the extreme punishment which the law awards osght not to be carried out in all cas?i." Ho says furthur : " I am strongly of opinion that capital punishments should be retained and that they should be extended to some cases in which offenders are at present liable to them ; but I am also of opinion that no definition which can ever be formed, will include all murders, for which the offender ought to be put to death and exclude all those for which second- ary punishment would be suScient. •' The moat careful definition will cover crimes involving many different degrees, both of moral guilt and of public danger ; moreover, those murders which involve the greatest public danger, may involve far less moral guilt than those which involve little public danger." " the question of the necessary disproportion between gradations ot crime and gradations of punishment is brought to the most perplexing issue in the case of the punishment of death. This punishment naa the following characteristics as distinguished from all othera : It admits in itself uf no gradation ; it is irrevocable ; and it is more different in if you, as kiad trom alt other p«niiliB«Dtt Umii they u« ttmu tMh oth«r. • • • Mudw ii the oBtaM to whieh th« panlihniMt of daath la new almott aniTMwIly mtrieud." Then the Commission on C*pital Ponithment dsolsred : " Tbtre it oa« point npoa wbioli ilte witntMM wboB w« bnT« uun- iuM uc •Imont aoMimou. tii., that the power of diivoUng eentenee of death to b« recorded ibouid l>e reetored to the judgee. We think thia ohMtge deiirable." What vraa that f There was a power for some time allowed the jadge, instead of passing the Bentenoe of death, to per- mit it to be recorded, which was eqaiTaleni to a reprieve, and was invariablj followed by a commntation, thus grant, ing to tho judge tome measure of that judicial discretion, which here is applied wholly by the Bzeoutive. Then, if you deal with cales of political offence, fts has already been ooint- ed out^ the severity oi the law has been mitigated in I'ranoe by tlie constitution of 1846, which abolished the paniehment or death in mtttiVre politiqite. Now, let me oome to the mode atid extent of the exercise of this prerogative in these casee. The Commission on Capital Ponishment examined, among others, Mr. Walpole, the Home Secretary. Mr. Hftrdy asks him ; "<}. Tou h%m the Ohnneellorsnd other jndges ; Ca addition t« thnt, I think yea will r»!n^■be^ that in your own tine there wm one «kM in whioh It berame very important to ateertaia th^ feeti with regard to the locality T—il. Certainly. " Q. And do yoo rcmemoer that yon there aathoitaed an inteUigent person apon the spot to have the dhtaneet meaiared to ihow whether ihey were (a coafhrmity with the evldeaoe, whieh wai impugned upon tbatgroaDd?— A. Certainly, I did." So that yon find that examinations of that kind took place where evidence ^iven at the trial was impugned in order to test whether it was i oally accurate or not. Again, the Boyal CoromioBion on Indictable Offences, compos^ of the learned Judges Blackburn, Barry, Lush, and Stephen, re- port thus : " Oasei in whioh, under lone peculiar etate of facts, a tniaoarriaM of Jnitice taken plaeo. m»y lometimei though rarely occnt ; but when they oecur it i« under ciroumttaneeifor which liked rule of proeedure eanaot proTide. " Ixperienoe hat ihown that the aeeretary of StaU ia a better Judge of the exiatence of such circumatancea than a court of juatiee can be. He hu evety fheillty for enquirieg into the apectal oireumataaees ; he can and dote, if neoenary, aTait hlmaelf of the aealatanoe ef the Jadga who tHed the ca^e, and of the law oOcets. The peaitioa WhiMi be oeett* piea ia a gaarantee of his kncwn fittte«» to form an opinion. Be ia fettered by no mie, and hi a deciaion doea not form a precedent for enbatiiaent eaaes. We do not tee bow a better meana eouid be prorided lor Inqairy into the ciroamaunota of the esceptiooal aasea ia qaeation. The powera of the Secretary oftiute, howerer, as to diepoaing of the easel whioh come before him are not as aatiafactory aa hia power of inquiring into tbeir eireoaauneee. He «an acviat Her M^ie^ty to remit or commnte a aentenee ; but, to say noihing of the 'ncooaiatency of pardeaing a man for an offence on tbe ground that he did not commit it, auch a courae may be onaatiafactory. The relult of the inqnlriea of the Secretary of State may be to sbow, not that the convict ia clearly innocent, hut that the propriety of the conviction ia doubtful ; that maiteia were left out of aeoount which ought to have been conaidered; or that too little importance wu atuched to a view of the caae, the benriag o! whioh waa not inlScieetly apprehended at the trial." Bather extensive powers. Sir. Then, I refer to a series of authorities of the highest character, being the explanations which have been given by Buc-ces&ive Home Seeretaries in the British Parliament, with reference to the discharge of their functions. In lh36, with regard to the Dorpheater laborers. Lord Huasell, then Home Secretary, said : " What I have to aay it, ttiat in this cat^ aa in an^ other that nMy be brought before me, whether in the Bouae or out ot it, I do not hold my- aelf precluded from entering npon the conilderation of auy facta or oircumataheea that may come to my knowledge, or from forming a jadgn«nt upon them without iea«rve.^ ' Lohi lioaghborough, who was at one time Chief Justice, said in the House of Lords: " That he had tried prlaonen who had been oapltally convicted, aad he had carefelly exammed and reviled all the circumstaueea of their caE«a without being able to find a sinnle reasuu which would jastily hia reoommeading mercy to be attended to thftt, and b« bad teporled to the Gof«rt>Deiit that he did not thiak kiuiaelf waitantedia saylagthat they were entitled to favorable conaideratioo, and yet mercy had been extanded to then more tkaa onee, aad, he verily beliend, en fhU i ad Jest prlneiplas." Sir Geo. Grey, Home Secretary, said : " I eannot accept the doctrine of the hon. member, that the Secretary of State ia bound to oonaider the verdict of a Jury ia a capital ease as abaolutely floal, and to rxfuae to inveatigate any alleged facta which may be atated to him tending to alter the view of the case aubmittad to the judge and jury. Tuedaty of a Secretary of State would boaaay if ia all oaaea he renued to reoeive any appeal for mercy founded upon (acts not atated at the trial. But he eaanot ahriak from the perfomaooe of the duty which ia bow impoaed upon him however painful it may be ; if he did nia conduct wouidmeet with aniveraal ooademnaUoa." Mr. Home Secretary v^alpole aald, that a murder referred to was one of aggravated enormity and barbarity ; yet the sentence was commuted. Again Mr. Qathome Hardy, Home Seoretftry, said : " After the trial and condemnation facta might come out which (t would be deairable to aift ; and howerer long it might be after a maa'a conviction, if circumatancea tranapired ahowing that the eonrietlon was UBjaat, or throwiag ineh a do'ibt on it at to make it dear that there ought to be tome interferanoe, there atnat neoeatarily be aoaao aathority to exeraite the prerogative of mercy." Mr. Secretary Walpole, said : " Do net it be anppoted that I think that the Home SeoreUry hat not a very large pjwer veitad la him ot adviaing the Orowa to exerdae its prerogative of mercy. I think there is such a power veated in him, not for the purpoae of re-hearing a caae which can oniT be properly reheard before a Judge and Jury, but for the purpoae of taking into oonaideration not oaly the facta proved at the trial, but any other facta and oircama- taaoea that may be brought tc light aubaequeotly, of weighing them, and of determining whether, under all the circumatancea, it ia hia duty to reeommeid the Crown teexeroiaeict prerogative of meroy, aoa to mitigate the aeverity of pnniihment. In no case, however, ahopld he interfere againat the declaion both of judge and jury, ualeea the ahiO it 80 plain aa to leave no reaaoaable doubt on the mind of any intelligent man that a groat it^utttee had been done." Mr. Oathorne Hardy, Home Secretary, said : " Certainly, in thia inatauee, the jury did not negltet tbeir duty, but found a Terdiot of ' wilful murder ' in a caae which waa andoabtedly one of wilful murder according to the law of thia oouatiy. At far aa I am concerned in thia tranaaotion, I have no heaitation ia exphUaiag all that haa taken place in regard to it. * * The memorial waa aeal down to the judge, and br return of poat I received an anawer in whioh the judge reoommeaded that the aentenee of death abould be commuted to penal aerritude." And it was oommnted. On the Bill to abolish capital pun- ishment whioh oame ap in 1869, Mr. Secretary Bruce, said t "He would nndertake to uy that the law (as to capital pualkhment) could not exitt at all were it not for the largn diaereuoaary power ea- truated to Uie Home Secfetary, which devolved upon him dutiet, aot only of the aaoat dificnlt, bnt of the moat paiaful character. • * • " It waa bard, for inataace. to juatifr the cont nued exiaieoce of a law under whieh it wac not merely ia tbe power, but Itecame absolutely the dut/ of the Secretary of titate to remit seutt-nct-a ot death tolemalj paated hy a judge after verdict found by the jury. In accordaace with long tradition in hia office, it waa lh«s duty of the Borne Secrete ry W ren^t the extreme aentenee in all caaea of infhnticide. Another cuatom which bad grown to t>e invariable— at least be had not been able to find a tingle exception— Wat that no aenteDce of death was ever lotiel«d in a caae wliere, in the opinion of the judge, it ought not to be iadioted. Bveiybody acquainted with the auhject, muat be aware that after every aaaize there were jadgea who baatened to icform tbe Home Seeretaiy, that althoagk, aaoordiag to the defiaition of law, the jury had been right in 0a«Ung the priaoner guilty of murder, and although the jadge waa hlmaelf bound to paaa aentenee of death, yet, in hia opinion, that aenteoce ought net io be carried into executlou Tben no inconaiderabla namber of caaoa arote where the judge paated aentenee of death, himaelt diaagteeiag with the jary In the two latter daaaaa cf aatea, the Hotna Secretary, whether he agreed with tbe opinioa of the jud^ or not, wat bound, according to the practice, to abandon hit own opinion ana act npon tl-at of the Judga— noralty bound, he meant, of oourte, for there waa no legal obligation reating apon him beyond the precedeati lava- riably recognined oy hit predecesaora. " Mr. firoee again said : " A third daaa of eatet, extremely dlfflcnlt to deal with, and ezpoiing the holder of the ottce to comments, harah and very frequently nnjuat. wat when freah evideace atoae after the conviction of the offender, and he must aay that, in hia opinion, thia waa the weakeat part of our pre- teat ayattm, and one deaerving the miMt aeriona connderation of the Leglafatnre. The case waa that nt a veiy poor claas of penoni, who either where unable to obtain legal aatiatance, or, ftom their position or peihapa from tbeir ptaviouk character, excited but little aympathy In the neighborhood, and (hctt which might have told in their favor were not brovght oat all the oonseieacea o? those acquainted with thoae fhctt were arooMd by the impending death of tbe convicts. Oatea auch at 18 those were by no means intre>iiient In his ihort eiperience lie hud »l- tvhij bid two or three liKiiiil indtanceg in whicli evidence of tlie mou unbounded imi-Jituncf had been Iti-pt b^cli, either fiotn want of laeftoi OD the nart of the prisoner to liare his ca'e properlv inveatiKated, or from want 01 iaterent on the part ol thoce by whom the itridenoe ouiild be gireu." Then on the remif*8ion of capital puniwhtnent Mr. Bruce anid : " It ii well that the H xise and country should underttand how in theie cases, which so olten ulfend the bonent opinion at tli« piiblin, there is apparent dijcrepancy between the opinion of jndse and jury on the one Hand and that ot the Uome Secretary on the other, (l arirei IVum this— that the jury is obliged to liid, from the d>reution of the jitd({e, a verdict of wilful murder, and that the jndKe is constantly required to pass a sentence of death, when it is (|uite ecrlain it will not, cannot, ought not, to be executed. « • • yuch is the state of the law, and so long as it is the state of the law it is absolutely impos- sible but that the decision of the Secretary of dtate must occasionally be in disaccord wiib the tiudmg of the jury and the senteace of the judge." On another occasion, he said : " I may here mention another case which was brought under my notice more recently. A prisoner was entirely undefended, not a palla- tire circumstance was adduced on nis trial for murder, and he was con- sequently conficted and sentenced to death ; but other erideace was afterwards brouKht forwarj which, in the opinion of the judge, would, if laid before the jury, bivu turned the scale in taror of tbu prisoaer and shown that he was guilty of manslaughler instead of murder." Mr. Bi uce says again : " While the law respecting murder remaias as it i>, and while the spectacle is so often seen of judges aud juries dissenting — the one from ttie verdict a-:d the other from the sentence which, in accordance with law, ihi'V are obliged to pass— there must be lodged somewhere the powir of adminisienng the prerogative of mercy." Lord Penzance says : " Now, independantly of the cases in which the punishment of death has been cjmiuuted, it bas, I beiieve, been the practice tor many years of the Uome Uffice to mitigate severe sentences. ' Mr. Trovelyan, Irish Secretary, said : " I am glad to have an opportunity of saying a word hout the Kil- martin case. If His fiicellency erred at all in that case, he erred on the light side. In the last paragraph of his letter it is stated : " His Excellency has determined to release Kilmartin. He does so without impeacUiug tbe correctness of the original conviciion, or tne bonajilet of Hernon ; but, eiibjequent inform 'ition having created some doubt as to the identilication ot Kilmartin, His Kxcelli'ucy feels himself enabled to exercise the prerogative of mercy ou Kilmartiu's behitlf. " So late as 1884, JIdr. Gladstone, in a great debate to]wbioh i shall have occasion snbctoquently to allude, said tLis : " The constitution of this country knows nothing ot criminal appral, properly so called, uutbing of the retrial ot c-tses, as was eiplai .el l>y the h( me Secretary last nigbt. It Icuows of the reference to the aspou- sible Minister, who, surrounded by the very best aavieera, and acti'.g tinder the deepest sense of responsibility, is entitled to exercise tl.e pre- rogative of mercy. That moue ot operation you begin by excluding, because what you are asking for is not a further investigation uf the question by the responsible otlictr of the Queea, but it is a full and public enquiry, adescripuon to which his operation jould not coriespond." 1 think I have suflSciently odtablished the accuracy of my statement, aod enlarged even my own statement by these proots of the extensive powers and consequential duties of the Executive in exercising this branch ot the admiuiutru- tion o«' criminal justice, particularly in capital cases, but before 1 pass to the question ol what should be done in cases of insanity and the specialties of those cases, i wish to make an allusion, at this point, to the ett'ect ot the recom- mendation to mercy. The hon. member from Ottawa, quoted a portion of a passage, which 1 deem it my duty to read, from Sir Jamos Stephens' book : " There is one other pjinl on which the English and French systems are strongly contrasted. This is the li'rencb system of cireomtancei atUnuantei and the English system of recommendations to mercy. The finding of «rcons(onc ught to have. It is true that the recommendation to mercy of an Englihh jury has no legal effect and is no part of their verdict, but it is invariably considered w.th attention and is generallv eU'ective. " Id cases where the judge has a discretion as to tbe sentence, he always makes it lighter when the jury recommend tbe prisoner to mercy. lu capitii cases, where he has no d.scretion, he invariably in practice informs the Hume Secretarv at once id the recommendation, and it is frei)uenlly, perhaps generally, followed by a commutation of the sen- tence. This seems to me infinitely preferable to the system ot eireon- H.incf aUinuatU't. Thoagh the impretsion of a jury ought always to bt re.-pectfully considered, it is often founded on mistaken grounds, and is some times a compromise. It is usnal to ask the reason of the recom- mendation, and I have known at least one case in which this was followed hrst by silence aud then by withdrawal of there commendation. I have aUo known cases in which the judge has said : ' Uentlemen, you would hardly have recommended this man to mercy if you bad known as 1 do that 'he has been repeatedly convicted ot similar offences.' There aie also cases in which tlie lecommendatioo is obviously founded on a (U'Ubt uf the prisoner's guilt, and in such cases I have known the jndge tell the jury that they ought to reconsider the matter, and either acquit or convict simply, the prisoner being entitled to an acquittal if thedcubt 8< ems to the jury reasonable. This will often lead to an acquittal." Then I refer to two casts in wh oh Home Secretaries have oxpiessed iLoir views ou the subject. In the case of the convict Wager, Mr. Walpolo said : " His first impression was that it was a case of such barbarity and cruelty that it was proper that the law shoul 1 take its course. Ua the other band, he found that ihe jury recommended the criminal to mercy. Moreover, he felt that in this, as in all riinilar caiiniou, and be would te.d a portion ot tbe report. it was as foilvWii : — '' The murder was not premeditated, and I do not think that when he commenced tbe pursuit after bis wife he intended that act of violence which he afterwards made use of I am, therefore, of opinion that the case is not an unlit oue for the exeicise of th- prerogative ij\ meicy.' " After the lecommtudation of the jury, expressed not only at the time when the verdict was given, but since conveyed to him in stronger lan- guage than the original recommendation was couched in ; and after the deliberate opinion of the judge that the case was, in his opinion, not hutii tor the exercise of the prerogative of mercy, he did not think that he (ould have taken any other cjurse than tbe one be adopted, and the Bi ulencu was commuted to penal servitude tor life." In another case, the case of John Toomor, the i>ame Home Socrolary said : " Perhaps, upon this point, I shall not transgress my duty by saving that from the very beginning I thought the puuiabmeut to whien Toomer was sentenced was so severe thai it ought nut to stand. I never had the sliglitest bes lalion upon that point, but that question has never beeu brought before me. The reason why 1 thought the punishment ought not to Bland was, because 1 felt that the jury's recommendation to mercy, founded probably upon some indiscretion of tbe prosecutrix, should bave been attended to." Now, I ventured to observe, on the only occasion on which L have spoken in public on this case until to-day, that it was a matter of regret that the jury were not asked to state what their reason was for the recommendation — I do not mean by the Executive, ol course, but by the judge at the trial, as it was fitting that he should have done. We hud some public information given to us from a source which 1 suppose hon. gentleman will not challenge as dibtitictly uulriondly to them or as beiiig biassed in any way against them. At the time of the trial, the Maxl corre.ipondeiit at that trial telegraphed to the Mail news- paper as ibllows ; — " RiGiMA, N.W.T., 3rd August —Three of the jurors in Riel'a case tell me that the meaaiag of that recommeadation to meroy ii tbat ia tbtif 10 opinion IIUI iboald not b« tiAn((«d, •• tlity think th«t, while he If not Kneolutelr Inime In the ordinary »ccppteil mranlnfr nf th» worj, he l« • Tery devilled ' crank.' Th« other three iurnis I hnvc not bf<>n able to lee, hot thli ii their view al no Mo tot the wilnps^eH I'nr the Crown admitted on cro«g-«iamlnatiun th«t Kiel, in their estimation, wns 'not nil there ' ; and thie, with the legtimony of the experts and thiU or Kev. Father Andr6, of Prlnne Albert, who fought with nil((ht and main aKainit Riel during the aftltation wlilcli culminated In the ruhellion, f reduced a profound Imprcngiun iipun tlii< minds of the jury. Lastly, be jury law and heard the prisom r in thi^ box." That wttB the only infornriHlion which, ut tho liinu [ Hpuko, I had att to the meanini; of tho rocommondaiion. A ^on* tleman rosidin^ in the Noriii Wottt, witl> whom I had no acqiiaintanofl, wrote to mo, Blulin^ thiit lie hud Heon the statement made that it waK not known wliiit tho moaning of tho recommendation wan, and ho enclodod to mo u lettur addrepr:,d to himaolf from one of tho jtiry, which I think it necoHHary lo give to tho IIouho an tho only inf')rmulion I have had Hinco on tho subjoct, givon to mo without any aolioitation on my part, and Himply coming in tLo way I have Rtatod. That letter is uh follows : - " Mr DiAH 8iR, — Inanawert) yonr enquiries regrardini; our verdict, Ac, In the Riel trial, I wonld say that ua a friend I hare no obj'ctiuna whatever to Eivlng tou our rea^ona for recommeoditid the prtdoiHr to the mercy or the Grown, but I would aak yon m a fur nut to make public mjr name or reaidence. " The judge, in his cbarRe, told ub distinctly that we mu9t tnke into •onBidoration these two points, tho prii>uner'a implication in the rebellion and the Btate of his mind at the time He aaid : ' If you are porfectly Batiafled in your own mind that the prisoner was implicated in the rebellion, directly or indirectly, and at the damo time able tociisiingniah between rlghiand wrong, you most bring him In guilty : if, on the other hand, yon find him Implicated in the rebpillon, but of ub^onnd mini. Ton must bring him In not guilty, and state, on account of bis 'naanily. This was the purport of the charge, although by no means the whole of it " After we had retired to conaidor the verdict, our foreman aaked each and every one of us the following questions :— 'la the prisoner guilty or not guilty 7 and, is he sane or Iniano ' We each answered in our turn. Guilty aud perfectly aane." " In recommending him to the mercy of the court, we did ao becanse we conaidered that while the prisoner waa guilty and we could not by any means jiiatity him in hia acta of rebellion, at the same time we felt that had the Government done their duty and redressed the grievances of the half'breeJg of the Saskatchewan, a^i they hud been req leeted time and again to do, there never would have been a second Kiel rebellion, and const quently no prieoner tn try and eondemn. We could not but condemn in the atrongeal terms poaaiblK the extraordinary dllatorineja of Sir John Macdonald, Sir David McPherson and Lieutenant-Qovernor Dewdney, and I firmly b.'lleve that had these three been on trial aa accessories, very little mercy, if any, wonld have been shown them by the jury. • • • • "Although I say we. In nearly every case in the aboTe, it may pos- sibly be that not everyone held the same views as myself, bnt I certainly thought at the time that they did so, and am still ot the same opinion. " You are at perfect liberty to make use of this letter in any way you lee fit, provided anything therein relating to myself is not maae public." I have given overything which does not relate to himsolfi and which boars upon this caHo at all. I thought it my duty to read that letter particularly, bucauoe, having in rny hand tho statement from one of the jury that the jury thought the prisoner sane, I did not think it would bo consistent with tho frankness I owe to the House to withhold that, inasmuch as they will see it is not a view which I myself share. I repeat that I do not at all contend that a recommendation to mercy is necessarily to be yielded to. I have never said so or thought 80. I think that would be a still more unsatisfactory mode of dealing with the case than the French system. But I do argue that the statement givon in the author whom I have quoted is a fair statement of the general results and of the degree of attention which is proper lo bo given to a recommendation to mercy ; and, if the hon. member for Ottawa (Mr. Mackintosh), who seems to have had special opportunities of investigating the caces of the exercise of the prerogative of mercy for several years past, opportunities not vouchsafed io ether hon. gentlemen, had extended his enquiries and had gone into those cases in which the recommendation to mercy was effectual, instead of confining himself to those in which it was inotloctual, I think he would have given us iin array of facts more impor- taot and more satisfactory than the representation of only one aide which ho has given us. The question is in what cases, and in what claaHes of cases the recommendation haa boon made, and what degree of woight has boon given to it, I turn to the question, so far as it may bo specially illus- trated by authority, of tho oxorciso of mercy in those cases in which tho dofonce of insanity urisos, and upon that hubjoct no loss a learned Judge than Lord Oranworth was examined by the Capital PuniKhment Commission, in 1865, and the Attorney Uenorul f>r Ireland put to him this stiito. ment : " t happen to know a recent case where a man was tried, and ths defence was inaanily— incapacity to judgii of big actions, Tlie jury con- victed thi< man, not believing that he was insane The Rxecutive lub* seqiiently received information from various doctors which had not been produced, showing that, the man really was insane, and in that case the prerogative of mercy was exercised, the man being rotained In prison?" And tho answer was : " That would be the reasonable mode ot dealing with him." So you see that where the question of insanity was raised at the trial, and where the jury decided against it, and where tho Rxecutive, upon tho evidonce givon at tho trial and hefi>ro them, did not think thoy were wronir — and whore, of conrye, tho judge was not dissatisfied with tho verdict either — yet, where subsequent medical t» stimony was b'ought forward, it was acted upon by tho B^ocntive, and thoy commuted npon the sroro of tho subsoqnont medical testimony, and therefore they received it. Now then, on the Bill to abolish capital punishment in 1869, the Home Secretary, Bruce, said : " One of the first caces he had to adjudicate upon was that of th« convict Risgrove, the circumstances of the murder oeing auch as in them- selves to excite suspicion of insanity. No evidence waa adduced hefors the court aa to the previou.-i life of thia unhappy man: but after aantaoc* had b"en pin'-ed th • cinsrienoe of the n iight)0'h> o I was aroused, and information waa given which led to the discovery of what the facts really were, viz., that for three years he had been subject to fits of epilepsy, and while quite peaceable at other times, under the influence of these he was dangerous, so much so that he had been dlBmlssed from one employment. With a knowledge of these ficta, it was impossible to allow the sentence ot death to be carried nut, and the result of two medical examinations since inatituted at different places, and conducted by r-re entirely innocent. Mr. Bruce, Home Secretary aaid, the one was innocent and the other insane." So that tho innocent person had been sentenced to death, but his sentence had boon afterwards commoted on the ground that he was insane. Then Mr. Braoo, in 1870, in tho case of Jacob Spinasa, said : " A murder waa committed, for which no motive could be aaaigned, by a peraon who was apiiarently laboring under some temporary and violent hallucination. The j'ldge and jury, however, thought there was not auffirient evidence of thia atate nf mind, and therefore they treated the prisoner as a md by r»qnTrln|( all flvldcne* to b« on o«th, for on B>lt«r» of opinion tber* wilt alwftji b« K^ent v«ri«tT o( opinion, and the onth it no Meudtj, b«cnuie » niM bItIxr hli opinion mny honettly iwenr that be bellevei lo and lo. Oertlflcatei, therefore, are Jnit at valuable whether ther are on oath or not; and the only other •rldenca ti that ocoMionally given by friendi and relativee, as to the wwTlct't itata of mind at fbnner periodf— matten which arc notof tucb diffloult lolation ai may at fint tight apptar. * * * At praieat the fbnotlonary to whom thii duty li oonflded, baTlair ample aialitanee, la able to consider thii eubiect without delay. He !i, monover, a reiponeible Minltter of the Grown, and it, therefore, tuoountable to Parliament for the manner In which he dltchargM hit dntiet." There too find the reeponaibility of the Government declarea by the Lord Chancellor, the head of the judiciary and the le£(al o£Scial of the Oovernmoot, who ezpkina what fs done in cnmiiial cases where a man has been Gonvicted and Bontonced ; and a quoHtion eilHts as to the state of his mind. Ton find that an enquiry in nindo, that medical opinions are taken, and evidence is taken aa to the feots from which con- closions are lo be drawn. Then the Royal Oommission on Indictable OfTencee in 1878, compoHcd as I said before, of Judges Blackburn, Barry, Lush and Stephen, said: " It mutt be borne in mind, that, although intanlty it a defence which la applicable to any criminal charire, it It mott frequently pat forward In irlikU for mnrder, and for thii offence tlie law— and we think wtoely— ftwaidi upon convietion a fixei puaiahment which the judge bat no power to mitigate. In the case of any other offence, if it thould appear that the offender wat afRleted with tone nntoundneti ol mind, but not to auch a degree at to render him irretpontlble — la other wordt where the criminal element predumiuatea, though mixed in a greater or laaa degive with the insane eirment— the judge can apportion the puniah- Bent to the degree of orlminaltty, making allowance for the weakened or diaordf red Inta loot But in a eaae or mnrder tkia can only be dene by an appeal to the Rzecntire ; and we are of opinloa that tbia difflcnity cannot be sueceaifnly avoMe.l by any definition of inaanlty which would ke both gale and practicable, and tliat many caaea muat occur whioh cannot be aatiafaetorily dealt with otherwite than by auch an appeal." Now, this is Btated at a lata day by maa of the highest anthority, having had the advantage of the evidence of many learned men engaged in the actual administration of the criminal law, declaring the theory and practice of that admin- istration in caaee in whioh there is a weak or diaordered intellect, though not so weak or disordered aa to justiiy a Terdict of not guilty on the ground of insanity ; and in lan- guage in whioh I would only weaken by attempting to restate the argument, they point out, what common sense and com- mon humanity approve, that a weak and disordered intolleot, although there may be enough to leave a man responsible, loavcH him not responsible to the same degree as to the severity of punishment aa if be were of perfectly sound mind ; and that which, in all other cases, by the law. the pre- cise sentence proper to be awarded as proportionea to the moral guilt and to the palliative circumstances, is to be fixed by the judge, in the particular case in which the sentence is that of death, that duty is U.< be discharged by the Ezeontive. Sir James Stephen, in his book to which I have so frequently alluded, alluding to the provision of recording sentence, which, as I have said, had the effect of a reprieve, ■ays: " I remember a caie ia which Ur. Jaatioe Wightman ordered tantencc of death to be recorded npon a conTletion for murder. The prisoner, though not quite mad enoog'b to be acquitted, was obTioutW too mad to be haG|ted. I have met mth casta in which I wished I bad a similar power." Sir James also aays : " These considerations appear te me to shew that mnrder, however aconrately defined, mnat always admit of degrees of f^ilt, and it seems to me to follow that some discretion in regard to punisbment onght to be provided in tbia and in nearly everv other caae. Tbia diacretion doea in net eziat at preaent and ia ezerciaea by the Home Secretary, though on every conriotion of mnrder sentence of death is passed by the judge." Then he gives cases affecting the gnitt of such an offence : " (I) Absence of poaltiva intention to kill, ke. <• (3) Provooatien, *c. " (3> Tbete arc man* cases ia vhieb a man's mind ia mora or le« atBMUa br uisaaMt, but la vkick it ca&oot be said that be iatooUtltd to tti anogsthsr acqtutted on the ground of inianity." And then he givea a lone series of other omm, the praoiae caw to which I allade being number 8, and proving aemon- atrativeiv that tbia case waM reooguiaed by our law, whioh else would be a barhaionM and inhaman law, and that il justifies the principle of dealing with the case according to the oiroumstaneea. Then Lord Penaanoo, daring a deCate in the Hoaf>e of Lorda in 1870, said: " Well, the Home Secretary does as much as any m%a can do, ondar the cireumstances. He makes his Inquiry. It very often happens that the erlme is one which depends on aolentUlo cvldaooc, as ia ike rate of poiaoning, and then be haa often a very dalloata tuk. In other caaoa new and additional facts are alleged ; but theio are no authorlaed aouroes of Information. I believe, indeed, that kc sometimcc toads down per- sona to make InquiriM on the apot." Again, Sir James Stephen in hia book, speaking as to the doubts thrown on the justice of a verdict, or the aoouracy of the evidence, and the course of the flome Secretary in Smothnrst's case, Hhows that: " Sir Oeorge Lewis, Home Secretary, says : * * * * I have come to Uie conclusion that there It tnflleient donbt of the pri^ oner't guilt to render it my doty to advise the grant to hl-aof afkca J pardon. • • • • xhe neoesiity Thich I have felt or advising Her Majesty to grant a free pardon In tbtf case has not, m it appears to me, arisen from any defect lo the eonatltution or prooeod- ioga of our criminal tribunal a: It haa risen from the imperfections et medical science, Hiid from fallibility of the Judgment in anoboouo malady, even of skilful and azperienoed praotitionsra." I am unable to deal with some of the oases in oar own country as (ally us the hoo. member for Ottawa (Mr. Mack- intosh), but t observe a report in the Mail nawapaper of A trial which took place in October, 1882, at Napanee. One Leo was tried for marder and the dcrfbnoe was insaoity. The medical evidence was oonflioting. Ooe doctor pro?«d that he had examined the prisoner and in his opinion he was insane, and insanity was not feigned. Another doctor was oalled and said he lud come to the same oooolasioo. The saol surgeon thought the examination disclosed delaaions, and he saw indications of insanity. Another doctor thought the prisoner was acting a part and knew quite well what he was doing. The judge charged that the evidence showed that his mind was, perliaps. not very strong, although some years ago he had labored ander delaaiona. At and aboat the data of the crime, persons who were in fVeqaent intercourse with him discovered nothing to lead them to suppose him of ansoand mind. A person taking revenge is not acting under delusion; he is doingit with some degree of knowledge of the differenoe between right and wrong. There was a verdiot of ^niity rendered, and there is no report of a recommendation for mercy. The Jiudge in pass- ing sentence said that after hearing all the evidence he was quite of opinion that at the tine the prisoner committed the Clime he knew what he was doing and was perfectly accountable for his action. He was sentenced to death. That sentenoe waa commuted. It was commuted by hon. gentlemen opposite. I tm not able to speak with authority as to the ciioumstanoes of the commutation; and I state gimply that I received a letter on the case tJbis morning, and therefore too late to enable me to apply to the hon. gentleman as I otherwise would have done to bring down Ute papers, but I now make the spplioation. The letter is written by a respectable person wno ought to know and who profesaea to know as to the oiroumstanoes whioh pre- cedea that ooumutation. fiat bdore I refer further to that latter, I should like to give the reporter's aocoont of the prisoner as published in ttie Mail : " The prisoner whose appearance is not such as to give the nnpro- fwrioaal eye macb, if any, ladicaiion of insanity hai watohcd the ooso apparently with much interest throughout He seemed to understand aoout what evidence each witness called would give, and it could kc notieed as tome of the more important ones eame to tiM stand that ho placed hisBself in an attitude or dose attoation as if to catoh every word said. He did not at any time display indifference, and toward the close though showing signs of wearlneaa seemed to take, if poflalble, more intereat than at first and to be in a measure impressed with a sense of kis peril. Ia thia respect there was a viaible ohange in kit oooatonaneo after ha hoard the addresa of tho Grows oounael ana the judge's elMrgOi %«d a Tory marked one when the roidiot was toader«(^" Ihe (nfbrmfttion oommnnloAtad to m« bv Utter thU mornlog !r u followH:— When the trial of MIoiimI Le« ftir ninrJer took place at Napanee Homo timo a^o, Or. Metoalf, of Rook> wood, Dr. (3lark, of Toronto, Dr. Larell, of Kintf^ioii, examined him. Dni. Notoalf and Clark pronoanoea him iDUDOi Ur. Lavoll prouounotid tiioa porfeoUy sane. Hia MHtenoe waa commoted and hnwa* aaiDttoihe penitentiary, whore he wan transferred to the oriminal iBisne ward aa inaanitj boom* marked. Wbeth«r he atill rcmaina there or not I do not know. I know, having had aom« reaaon to learn, that a very greitt ounaber of IhoM whoae nind« are dittordered are kept, and perhapH not unwwely ao, oat of the iniiaDe ward and mix witn the other prUonera. That \» the •tatoment given to me ; and I think, oonaidorinv the oir- oamatanooe and the namea 1 have ifiven, it would have been forluoate if the bon. manibor for Ottawa had oo far (wr- fected hi» inveatigatioo aa to be able to atata all the faotH reflpecting the caao nf Lee. I think it is eatabliahed beyond all oontradiotion that the practioo aooorda with reoeuo, that a disordered condition of the intellect, which in the view rightly or wrongly of the law in not Huffloiently diM>rdered to entitle the prlaoner to immunity from crime, la yet to be regarded in dealing with the quantity of poninhmeiit awarded; that in all other oaseH than the capital oases that regard is paid by the jiidgo, nnd in the capital cases it is to be paid by the oxeoative, wbuttedaty is,not as a matter of elemoncy or meroy aimply, but as part of the administration of oriminal jastioe, aa piirl of that Justice which we declare in oar Statut»booke we seek to accomplish by the appor- tionment of the puuiuhmont to the moral guilt, to have regard to what sorely moot be an element of the moral goilt, the degree of the disordered intellect, iho degree of the insane im- EuTses, of the insane delusions of the unbalanced mind. Sven although this degree may be not eooogh to entitle him to aoqoittal, though tke verdict may be right and the judge's sentence andcr the law mav bo right, there is not a mere disoretioa but a aaoreo, solemn and imperative doty to have regard to the ciroom- Btanoes diaolosed on the trial, and all other ciroomstanoea which may be made known ; and if upon the whole of the cir- cumstances, yoa find, as was said by Mr. Jostioe Stephen, that the man was not mitd enough to be acquitted but too mud to he hanged, you oannot xhelter yourself under the proposition that it was your doty to carry out thd Hontence of the law, and that the verdict of the jiry had settled all that matter. The verdict of the jury settled no more than this; the prisoner was not so completely insane as to be entitled to be absolutely acquitted on the ground of insanity. Ck)natateutly with that finding, his intollect might be seriously disordered. Ho might be seriously disordered taeo tally though not suf- ficiently disordered to give him immunity. lu not that question to be decided ? Was that question settled by the ver- dict ? No, it was left onbettled. it was to be settled by the Bzecotive. Has it boon settled ? If not, they did not ditKsharge their duty. If they settled it, and decided that it did not apply in this case, then I humbly say that I wholly disagree from them in opinion. Now, Sir, to come to the other branch of this case, the question of political oiTencea, that has also to be considered on the qoestloa of the award of punishment, and in this matter I am obliged to differ very much trota the spirit of a good deal that haa been said b^ hon. gentlemen opposite. The prerogative of pardon U dealt with by Mr. Amos, aa applied to these cases, thus : " There •■« other ease] in which the hcultj of grrantlaK • remluion or diminution ot the p 'nalty m^j al>o proparly kelons to the Bzeootive. Tbui io esses ot what are sometimes called ' political Crimea ' ia whioh the perpetratora of tht-m are as often as not persoai of virtaoiu habits and tendencies, and even in some cases of a heroic spirit of self-sacri- fices, it mujt dtpead eatirelj upoa the daaser to the ceammuli to be ■ ■ ' ' ■ partToular offences wheitw any apprehended from a n-petUlon ot such pi and what penalty should be exacted, ft the judge the supreme deebion of a queition more o( (QUtlcal k up armii bal to vindioata bimselt from a charge of the deepest dye. Where there wk j no necessity -not even an ezense— for shedding blood, the man who raise 1 hi* arm to shed blood, committed a crime ; and for ttiat crime the eountry had a right to demand, he would not say vungeance, but the utmost punishment tbe law allowed. Much more when men who had taken upon themsfllves tbe character of defenders of tbe country, violated the oatDs they had taken and conspired to destroy the country, ni puBishment could be inflicted upon them which they did not deserve.' Then the Attorney-General of England, in the same debate, describing the offences, used those words : " Whon the van emerged from under a railway arob, about half-a-mile from Bellerne, a large nnnber of persons were seen upon some vacant ground, slighily elevated above the road. They were armod with leTolvers, and had evidently been waiting for tbe approach of the van, determined to all hazards to rescue the pruoners. It was proved after- wards that messages had been sent in order that they might be prepared. They duijharged their revolvers at the policemen, stopped and surrouuded thi van, and some of them gat on the roof and attempted to break it in by means of hammers, wniie other* handad up large atones to aid them. Others, again, tried to break open the door. It was the duty of Secgeaat Brett to guard the door. He was a brave officer, and he did his duty. He positively refused to admit the assailants. When he was in the act of closing a ventilator— which was souietliing in tbe shape of a small venetiai uiind— for the purpose probably of preventing them from getting a iiold there, one of the conspirators pointed a revolver at the aperture, and, deliberately discharging it, shot tbe officer. Sergeant Brett fell in the van, tbe Joir was then broken open, and the prisoners were released. Hon. members might, if they liked, call that accidental shooting, but be (.Vitomey-Ueneral) o>illed it deliberate honicide. * * * Tbdy m'gbt call it a technical crime ; he called it vulgar mur- der. They might oall it a political offence ; be called it deliberate and atrocious assuslnation. It was a deliberate planned attack, carried out tyr the prisouer* who were afierwarda convicted, regardless whether tbiST oomodtted uurder or not, but detw4ed to do murder rather tAAUOai in tl^ object." Hr. P«M«, the member, T think, fw Hmih Dnrham, naM ! Montreal to the WorWln«meB'ii A»«ooUtIon of London made Q .... ,.. i_ i.-j ihiH rttiii'UMiilitAtioii : " WVll, thojr h»i| h«i In Iri'l»nil, hrHilril t)y « ifinlli iiii-ii wh mX Tt muriy yenri in llint ll.iii«i<, «nil WM highly ri'«lwclfi| li\ hH whi) k r* him -de «lhii|'"l In Mr Hiiiilh 0'Hrli>n, Hn wi«< 'iiki«n whili" In miiH hnMiinf « ri>tlH({i« Cor «i ihk hmir- Hif*ln«t Iho yui>i'n'i (kIiIiit* ; Hihl, In Ihni filr in" imi', whi'ii thu offi-nlir wni artimlly convlctii'l of triiici< ««• wflrrwnrdt cimniulml lo 14 yiam' Imninhnii'iil, im'l wmk KtliTwiirilii mrnln comninlcil, unci Mr. Hni[lh H'Hrifn wni" lird'Uhl hum" Id hn c.'imirv lUd ft'ir »f Ihi" nmn whi>n< ThIi' v/n* Ml w lif(,ir(i 'h>< IIimii ■ iil' Ooiiini im Ih'kii snillv nCiiich k Brt Pi'11 cif Purllitmcnt, hitd Ink'-n tln>ii»ih nf nihitliinre, wn* In 'hf QiH'fn'n ciiniiiilmloii iif the peiirc, iinil vfi il whu ti'lt c nimKluiil wiih pulilir ii(\filv to c I'lini it» hll puni^hmoiii twIcK Hl'tir hr hut licci ii'nti'iici'd tu de«th, nnd htai l»itiiil« uf hli crime" Mr. (iliid-iotiu Huid : " The •|»"'>u'> whicti we hiire to itr-nili d Ui iihuot "tlr Huh rt I'f'l did n ■• hci'miie poliiii'HJ olT'in leri nifrnly un thh Kriiiin I. Ky a political idf iii'i<, I Ht leitHt ii idxrii'and Hn olfeiice ruiutnitled indT ciriiiiiiatitiii'i h npi>'oiirlili i; to the rlmrHrlt'r of rivil WHf. Whi'iifver th- ti- IS » (f™ ■' lopiUr iiiovcmcnl, the nUVnci'H ciun- nilMcd In )iivlnir inVit to ihi< Inti'nll ns ol lln- penplc pHrtuki' ol the clmi'ni'tt'r of civil wiir. R'Icrfnif hm liccii innde to the action of ihe Prrgldetit of the Kr ncli Kfpnhllc In piirduniiiK olTcnci » comiiilltud by ruiniuiiiiiiilj ; hut it iiiuiit nut lie loiKotten ihat the urfi'iicci* — ihniiKQ ditrker thai the criiDHH lor which llielrnh prHincH are iiiider piiniith- ment— were ciiiiiiniileil in tli- proi;re«n of a civil war Hut the rl it coni- inilti'd at Manchester i>v a ci'oW'l loctlly ifalhered togciliMr wni a pro- cvfdiiiK totally o> a ililliTent chiiraiter, and mu-t he voiiHidere I hh In the main hclonainn to the ciiU'irorv of onlinary crinn', thoiiKh It In not on the Kroiinif that the oiriioe is a political rfTi' ice. thai I think the prlBoners In i|a''8tion can he recomtmnded for corrtideraiion. Hut if theiie offxncea bx not political otrxnvea in • strict lenae, yet Ihey were andertKken (or a political moiive, and in ^n far punnke of that chiracter an to iitfoct, i!i a material de){ree, the m iral gMl oi ib» purtoui cun- ciirned." That wuM tlio (iliKut'Vulidii tniulo by ibo inoit oinitient of Biij^liHlimon UH to tho ini^ri'inoiilHotu j)oliti»'.iil ofFoiico, ovon in a ciiMO ho obvioiinly trrosn iitui, its matiy of U'< would rt'gurd it ho totiiHy iiiieii fi'oin iho ordinary cutojjofy of poli- tical oft'encoH aH the I'ftHe of tho Miincho-tor murder VVoli, Sir, lot UH como to our own cinintry. Ilihiory ropoaiH itHolf in a wonderful wa^-. I romonihor whon wo brought thin oa^e firBt on tho (apis limt SoHwion, amon^Ht other IhinkfH, wo enquired of tho Govornmonl what they had done with certain porHons v. ho were very active, apparently, in Htirriiif^ up dirtcontoni, in tho latter half of tho .year 18^4 S«;litni It, Dumas and olhois; and after a while wn found out that tho Govoriimont had been ^ivinj^ them little offlcow, contractH, and ono thin^ or ano'.hor, and that thoj had been thuHOilhor marking their sense of their wortliinoHH, or attemptintj to isolate thorn from tho popular movement. And that in an old plan. I was looking awhile ago into tho earlier his- tory of Lower Canada, and I fourd an account of what used to go on in tho lo "g agita'.ifin which culminated in the rebellion of 18,S7. / <• long before that time as, I think, a quarter of a century, Governor Craig sent home Mr. Kylaud as hirt seirotary, to communicate with tho llomoGovorn- moiit with lotoronco to tho affairs of the colony, which he was endoavoiing to carry on with large aHsertions of prero- gative and limited local rights; and Mr. Ryland gives an amusing account of an interview with Lord Liverpool, then Prime Minister, on iho subject of agitators; " I/3rJ Liverpool then adreited to the particular character of the peraoaa who edited the " Blank, I will say, for tho moment " and asked whether they mi(fhi not be brougbt OTer. I obaerved that, unfortULalcly, this ayatcra had hi^hirto been acted on in Canada, and that I considered the late procecdinija ot the.-e indivijualaaa the natural consequence of it. men of deap rate fortunes with some talents, but destitute of principle, having; been thereby encouraged to oppose Qovern- ueutfor the purpose of forcing themjtlvea into pla;e." Sir, the paper of which that was written was the Quebec Canadien. Tho (7(Jna'i/en still lives. Now the signatories of the responso in 1837 by the committee of tho county of Ihix repioHuntatioii " Onr grUvancea are not n' new chararteri or of recent dal«. They hi«re been piilillcly iinl illannciiy iititled. and the mode and meaiiirea of redrei« have been plainly delin'd Our rltl/.mit have at public nie*linK« reiterated them for yeara pH»i. They have l.iuniled upon lliem hiimhle (••titiona to your Parliament, which tarniuKa daaf ear, now adda ag|{r*a- alon lu vunleiupl " That wnH Higned among others, by Papineau, 0'(5altaghan, NiIhoii, Dui^ho-nois and Cnrtior ; and ihoii comes alHo nomelhing which shows us how p h aidinK the civil auihirilies liave been asiiailecl anil llred on by the liand< of an armed peasantry ; " And whereas. It i« n I'nrlonn Ihnt the present blind a'ld I'ntal etcile- ment in I hit rtinlrUa is to be aiiribiiled to the niachliiaiionnof a f'W evil minded and desiKniiiK men, who have impo.-ed upon the credulity of an unsu-picioiH peasantry, andiiy p aiisilile niisrepreaentatioua and wilful calumny, by praclLiinff upon ih' ir fears and mil imiuK their paHaiona, by appealinn to national disMnctiona and eicliii>(( political prejudices, wliicb it has been ttie uukIi ited eideavor of the Britiah Ooverniuent to uxtiaRuish. have at lenf(lti succeeded in implicatinK a part of a peace- able and loyal population in the first exeeaa of a reckleaa and hopeless revolt." Yoa would alraoHt think I was ropoating a speech wo hoard tho other d;iy. Then, wo find how power acted again ill tho proidiimation of Lord (lOMford : " V\ hereaa, L J. Papineau la charged with the crime of hlffh treaaoii, and there Ih reason lo believe he haa tie.l from ju-tice; and whereaa, it is eipedienl and necessary for the due administration of jualico and for the aecurity of Her Majesty s G ivernment in this province, that a.i great an offence ah-'ild not escape iinpui.ished : " 1 do hen / reiiiire and coiamand all aubjocts to discover, take and appr.hend the aaia Ii. J Papineau and carry liira before a justice ; and for the encuuragcineat of all persons to bti diligent, a reward of Jt:i,0O0." A similar proclamation was innuod agnintt Wolfred Nelson, K, B. O'Caliaghan, J. T. Drolot, M.l'., W. 11 Scott, M.I'., A. rjirod, T. S. Brown, C. H. O. C6t6, M.P., J. J. Girouard, M.l'., K. E. RiMlior, M.l\and Joan O.Chortier, ollering £500 reward, and othorn at tho lesser price of £400. Then tho ordinance of Lord Durham, who assumed to banish WolfVcd Nelson, R. S. M. Bouchetto, B. Vigor, S. Marches- sault, II. A. Gauvin, T. Goddu, H. Dosrividros and L. II. Masson, to Bermuda, also provided : ■' If any of them, or if L. J. Papineau, 0. H. 0. 06t6, J. Oagnon, R. Nelson, K. B. O'Oallaghan, B. E. Rodier, T. 8. Brown, b. Duvernay, K. Uartier, 0. E Oartier, J Ryan, sen , J. ityan, jun , L. Perrault, P. P. Deroaray, Jos. F. DavlKOun and Louis Oaiitier, airainst whom warrants fur high treas in have been issued, shall hereafter without permisBiuu come into the Province they shall be deemed guilty of high treason and suffer death. " Nothing in any proclamation shall extend to the casea of certain named persona, or it any other person charged with the murder of LieuU Weir, or with iho murder of the late J. Charlraund, and they shall derive no advantage from such proclamations." The case of these persons was raised in the English House, and Lord John Eussoll says : " The Qcvernraent has not neglected to let Sir J. Oolborne know itf opinion of the inexpediency of inflicting capital puniahment on occasions of this nature." Sir Robert Peel argued that an exception should be made in the case of the murdoreis of Lieut. Wier. Asjsoon after as 1H41, the following resolution was passed iu tho Houso of Assembly by a vote of b9 to 9 : " Retolved, That it ia the oninion of this committee that an humble Address be presented to His hxcellency the Governor General, aa repre- aenting the Urown in this Province, praying tor the exercise of the royal prerogative lor granting a free partion, indemnity and oblivion, of all crimes, offeaces and misdemeanorB, cocnectod with the late f liondon mkJa <nil Pftilly piTpi'lrHU-il DiIkIi irKHDiiii hitTn (il M)ir Mitji^Niy, I'lvil •uih'>rilia|tiii«)«iu whuiuon hu wan ublu lu ruliirn, ai ho did in |H4 ». 1 1 iH unnoconHary, Hir, lor tno lo rol'or lo the U|i|K}|' I'aiiiuJian ri)lM)llioii, in ruH|)Uoi ot which, one iniglil ulino«t go through n Hiniilur hiHloiy. I have uono ho lur, in order to hhow (hu langiiugu which ii* UMt-d in uvunlM of thiH iiuMii|ition while thili3bed at that epoch ; and the non-reaisting test la tha Corporation Act was expunged from the 3tatate-book at the acceliion ot the Uouie of Brunswick. " Tlius ihere is no longer any oblig^ation of oontcieaee 'binding oa; soul in secular chaina,' to regard the royal digni'-* merely as a descen- dible property, instead ot viewing It as a trust lor mlllioni subject to a right of resistance when rendered indispensably necessary by toe itlu$ p)puli." Aid take Brougham's Political Philosophy: ' The national resistance was not only In point of historfeal fact tb« cau'eof tlie revolutionary settlemeut; it waa the main foundation of thit sittlemunt. The structure of the (iorernmeot waa mmd* to rest ■jij.iii the people's right uf reslatance as apon its corner stone, and it if of inrak'uliible impurtancc thai this nevei shjuld be lost sight of : bat It id >'alty which hon. gentlemen utter opposite, that would have been a treasonable act. I do not say it was a treasonable act. I shall not enquire into its motives and shall not ask how it was that the highflying Tories suddenly turiiH round rnd advocated annexation. I believe there was a great deal to be said against the action of dismissing those who signed that statement from the militia, but for a gentlemen who had for his colleague a Minister of the Interior who signed that declaration and set that great exam pie to the half-breeds,to give us the high-toned notions which ho expressed, was, I thought, a little out of place. Now, having said this as to the abstract right of resist- ance, I think it is important that wo should remember also that the more representative and popular is our form of Gov- ernment, the rarer are the occasions upon which resistance is noccsFaiy or justifiable for the redress of grievances ; and, if, as stated in uur Canadian charter, in that Colonial Secre- tary's despatch upon which our rights have obiefly depended for 10 mftoy yeara, if, and so long M the iptrit of onr ohtrter is observe i, and the Qoverament ii adminis- tered according to the wbll understood wishes of the people, there will be no grievances to redress, and oonse- quently there will be no cause A)r agitation, moderate or extreme, resistant or otherwise ; and, on the other hand, if the Qovemment is not administered aooordicg to the wishes of the people, this Parliament is the field of battle and we members of Parliament and representatives of the people are the army, and it is in this peaoefal way that oar contests are conducted and r>ur gneranoes ana redressed, and that government according to the well undentood wishes of the people is eventually obtained. We must remember as well, that whatever the form of government may be, whether you hare a parliamentary form of go'vem« ment or not, there are two other oonditions which are esstntial to the moral jastifioation of the ez&roise of the right of resistance ; first, that the grievanoes mast baserions, must have bean long endured, patiently represanied, all peaceful means used and exhnuated, so that there seems no hope of amendment by other means ; and, aeoondly, that there may be some reaoonable hope of suooess by this the last resort, not indeed without loss to those engaged, bat of important practical results, ^ow, in the case before as, unfortunately, so far as the unhappy persons who roM are concerned, our oonf>titution was lame and imperfect. There was no representative in Parliament far them, and therefore we had not that safety-valve, that opportunity, that means of averting difficulties which a n^presentative government, applied to every part of the general body of the peoploi gives. My own opinion ie that, if at an earlier date tnat represei.tative government had been accorded, that oircum- btance would have prevented this rising. My opinion is, that if there had been a representative from the North-West, knowing what Mr. MuDoweil knew, what Mr. Lawrenoe Clarke knew, what the other persona who have made repre- sentations, some of which are oefore us, knew, a repreeent»' tive here in Parliament, speaking on the floor of this House the senM of this people, tolling us what their diflioulties Were, c.lling fbr the paperB,showlng the groundsof thdir grievanoee and pointing out their neglect by the Qovemment, eaoh Ses- sion pointing out to the Government and to the House their remissness, and deelariiigthegrowlng condition of discontent and difSculty, the Government would have been stimulated to action, and that which onght to have been done would have been done, if not as early as it ought to have been done, yet early enoagh to avoid the frightfhl results which have given rise to this debate; and the aosenee of that guide and safety-valve, of course, at once increase the responsi- bility of an autocratic and paternal Government such as ours was in reference to the North-West; a paternal Government which refused this assistance, and it also operated, more or less, inasmuch as they had not provided for them 1 he representative machinery to diminish the moral guilt of the people. But, with regard to the other aspects and oonditions to which I have refsrred, I have already said that, while I condemn as In the highest degree censurable the conduct of the Government, I myself bave not been able to agree that this rising was justified, that the conditions remove, although they may, and in my opinion do, lighten the stara oi moral guilt; and therefore the case had to be dealt with on the qnoetioQ of the degree of punishment, and bv the Bxcoutive under their responsi- bilty to us. Unhappily it was impossible in this ease for the Government to judge thii question fairly. They had preoloded themselves fhom that possibility. They had made this their issue. They Lad declared that to admit the exist- ence of grievances as a justifioation or a palliation for the inenrgentR, would be their own condemnation, and they, therefore, had declared that thltt death, whioh would be the indication that the extreme rigor of the law was the approprttttv ptialBhment, that death oa the soaffcld waa 25^ iptrit of oar t> U AdminiB- ishea of the I, and oonso- moderate or other hand, if to the wishes >attle and we f the people tnf that oar ira redressed, all andentood d. We mnit goTemment rm of goyem- 18 which are i&roiBe of the asl beserioas, iresanted, all there seems secondly, that m by this the gaged, bat of hse before ns, whoroMare erfeot. There and therefore r, that means government, r the people^ lier date tnat that oiroam- plnion is, that North-West, |fr. Lawrenoe made repre- a repreeenta* Ot this flOQM fioulties were, oirgrievanoos ent, each See* e Honae their 1 of discontent en stimolated ) done would k> have been reanlts which I of that gnide the responsi^ ment saoh as ; a paternal and it also ey had not T to diminish [ to the oUier irred, I have gfaest degree mjHelf rave lastifled, that and in my ind therefore f the degroo eir respOQsi- this case for ^ They had le^ had made uit the exist- ation for the n, and they, Would be the aw was the Boaffcid was needfhl, in order to avert their own death here, and thus they hod beoomo disqualified for sound judgment. An Hon. MEMBER. That is your opinion ? Mr. BLAKE. That is ray opinion. In this connection I desire to say a word, and a word only, with reference to a charge highly calculated, if true, to increase the guilt, bo far as he was morally responsible, of Kiel. 1 refer to the charge of venality. I have already read that portion of the evidence of Nolin which shows the purpone to which this man stated he would apply the money which he was about to get from the Government — that ho would apply it in starting a newspaper and in raising other nationalitios in tho States, and in effecting the prosecution of his designs. I say that however plainly that may appear to be a violent, a wicked, or a mad sontioiont, it is utterly inconsistent with the charge of venality ; it shows that this was the mode which, in his disordered mind, he thought would be most efficacious in order to uccomplish the design for his people and for himself, as part of bis people, which ho entertained. But the very circumstance that he made that statement to Nolin to my mind proves that it is impossible that he could have made the proposal for a venal purpo.se. I know per- fectly tho prejuaices which exist. I know how miiny men would like to ease their consciences by saying : Oh, this was a base, and venal man. But it would bo an act of humiliating cowardice on the part of one who has formed another conclusion on this subject, to bend to such prejudices, and to allow a name which must ever be deeply clouded and stained, to receive another cloud or stain which he, at any rate, in my judgment, docs not deserve, iiut I will add this, that 1 had expected to tear ere now from an hon. gentleman who was very intimately associated with Louis Kiel, who worked together with Louis Riol in the North-West, his appreciation of that portion of tho case. I have been told a story— I was told it oy one who knew — on this subject. When the first intelligence came, that he had asked the Government for money, that ho was going to sell the cause, " Well," J -aid, " this is a most extraordinary thing; it entirely alters the whole complexion of the case." " Oh, do not believe it," said this gentleman who knew. "Well," I said, " I have every reason to believe that he has asked for the money." " Yes, that is quite possible, he is quite convinced he has a claim, but depend upon it, I know that it is impossible that he can have asked for money to deceive or to betray his people, or that be would betray their cause. 1 know all the events which occurred when ho was in the provisional government. I knr«w that at the time when be was in power there in lb6ii-70, when he bad the resources of the Hudson Bay Company at his command, his own family was in a state of destitution, living down at their place, and he would not allow anj' jiortion of what he called public property to bo sent to them at all, even to keep them in life, and that same provisional council was obliged secretly to send down a bug of iflour or something of that kind to his mother, who had tho charge of tho t'dmily, in order to keep them alive." An hon. MEMBER. Too thin. Mr. BLAKE. Somebody says that is too thin. I refer the hon. gentleman to the hon. member for Provonchor (Mr. Royal) on that subject. Now, Sir, with reference to the question of the Indian warfare. I think that if there was one thing above another that nerved us the very instant we hoard of this rising, to press on tho Administration in every way we could, to take all the steps which thoy with their greater knowledge of the conditions up there might themselves deem necessary, and not to make a single sug- gestion that they were doing too much, it was the possi- bility of an Indian rising, the thought which immediately engaged us all was that there oould not bo u rising created by Kiel and the half-breeds without imminent danger of an 4b Indian, rising, and tho conviction that wo owed it to ourselves and to our humanity, to the isolated settlers all through that country to take very large steps, to make very great preparations that if possible, we might anticipate, at any rate minimise, the terrible results that might dow Irom that rising. No man felt, no man feels, more strongly than myself, the dangers, the difficulties, and the probabilities of an Indian warfare, and therefore I am quite prepared to agree that if you are dealing with a man of perfectly sound intellect, this would be very important as imputing a vory much deeper dye to the crime he was committing. But, Sir, I may say that I do not think that hou. gentlemen are entitled to rest the whole burden of this case upon that fact. In the first place we are to remember that tho man himsolf was a half breed, that ho was partly of Indian blood, that those who were with him wore half breeds, that it was more natural, in fact, in view of so largo a part of their, though not of his, training, that that warfare should bo adopted. In tho second place, we can hardly hold our heads high with reference to this question of Indian warfare. Why, you remember the great fight between Wolfe and Montcalm at (Quebec, and you remember the monument which celebrates that event, and in which their names are joined. But Montcalm had amongst his forces a thousand Indian warriors, and an Indian warfare was going on in connection with these events. In the other part of the Province at tho very same time the English were using the Indians in warfare ; the Americans had used them in warfare. Why, Sir, it is but a few years ago that, at the inslanoo of my hon. friend trom Brant, we voted $5,000 towards a monument to Joseph Brant. I suppose wo all know something of the history of Joseph Brant, and what a remarkable man he was. Bat to tho end of his life Joseph Brant defended, with his enlightened Christian views, the Indian system of warfare as, for their circum- stances and under their circumstances, proper and necessary, barring tho question of torture, as to which, I am glad to say, he took an entirely different view, as many remark- able persons among the Indians have done, from the ordi- nary line. So with reference to Tocumseh, a name, per- haps, hardly interior to that of Joseph Brant. So, tl^at while we honor and refer to tnose persons, we cannot alto- gether forget this pa»t in the present. Nor npod we go so very far back. Why, in the Lower dnadian rebellion there is a most interesting account of tho feats of the Indians of (Jaughnawaga, who captured some 60 or 70 insurgents, but they wore on tho loyal side, and therefore it was a proper act. In the course of 18(j9 70, when Liout.- Col. Dennis, as conservator of the peato, wont into Manitoba and proposed m raise forces, ho raised an Indian force. There were 50 Indians updor Chief Prineo enrolled as ])art of his forces, and t^»oy wore doing garrispn duty, whieh was all, fortunately, they were culled ujjou to do at tho time. The Government very propeily disapproved of it, and they stopped it. They were thoroughly alive to the dangers and the improprieties of it. But it was not a crime of 80 deep a dye to engage the Indians and thus to create a great probability of an Indian warfare, as to prevent tho late Uiout.-Col. Dennis from being raised immediately afterwards in the public service by those gentlemen, and being promoted in that service, and remaining in it until he was superan- nuated. Now, Sir, referring to another point, to the question of the old offence. It is said by tho hon. gentlemen oppo- site, and has been said very loudly, that my attitude on that subject entirely precludes mo from condemning this execution. Well, with reference to the "Id offence. Wo must remember that there was a general amnesty awarded by tho Government by proclamation, on their res- ponsi bility, covering not that particular offence, but covering all the political offences and disturbances. That amnesty :^ was received with universal approbation. I do not remem- ber a single voice or newspaper ever being rained against it. It was universally thought that the Government had done proper in issuing, and issuing early, that particular amnesty. It did not, however, cover thi>* particular offence; but the rising, the political part of the whole affair, iho raising of men in rebellion, the creation of a Government, the organisation of forces, all that was with the unanimous assent of the people of Canada amnestied. There remained, as I have said, the question of this particular offence. As to that, what was my attitude in 1871 ? It is the same as my attitude to-day. I thouf^ht then, I said then, that in my opinion the death of Scott was a cruel muidor. There is just one point in respect of which the discussions which have gone on within the last few months have tended to modify my view, and that is the very point to which I have been drawing the attention of the House this evening. It is questionable, in my opinion, and those who read with the light which rcconl events and evidence have thrown upon these matters, will agree with it, will see in much that has occurred the reason of that question, it is questionable how far the mind of Kiel may oven at that early day have been thoroughly balanced. I do not intend to discut-s it ; I allude to it as the only thing in regard to which thoie is an observation to be made which differs in ray attitude today from my attitude of 1870 with respect to that event. That being my attitude then and my attitude ever since, an attitude in which I was confirmed by Sir George B. Cartier, who called it a cruel murder, by Sir John A. Macdonald, who also stigmatised it as such and invoked his Maker to testify to his anxiety to catch the crimirial — that being my attitude, 1 was exposed at that time to a storm of indignation, becaut^o I expressed the view that those who had been, as I conceivedj-'guilty of cruel murder should bo brought to justice. Mr. HESSON. It was because you wanted to make poli- tical capital out of it ? Mr. BLAKE. The hon. gentleman, who is always chari table, says it was because I thought to make political capital. The hoc. gentleman has been some time in Parliament, and he ought to know it is not parliamentary to impute motives. I wonder what the hon. gentleman thought of it himself? I wonder whether he thought it was a cruel murder, and whether ho thought the murderer should be brought to justice or not ? Mr. HESSON. I have not changed my mind. Mr. BLAKE. The hon. gentleman thought it then and thinks it now. Mr. HESSON. You have, I have not. Mr. BLAKE. We shall see. I have just said I have not changed my mind. I did my best to enforce that view. I am told thai I did it without papers and I want papers now. I had papers ; tho Government had brought down the papers to the House ; they had brought down the full account of the murder. I had Mr. Donald A. Smith's account and the account of other dignatories — all the os^idence on which a man might reasonably come to a conclusion in advance of a trial. What did 1 want ? I wanted a trial ; I wanted that the man should be brought to trial, and I thought then and I think now that I had quite ample evidence to justify me in stigmatising that event as a murder, and in calling that the perpetrator should be brought to trial. That being so, yet, in tho year 1875, I think I was amongst those who — though not of tho Government, but in our party councils, and subsequently in my place in Parliament — most strongly supported by voice and vote tho proposition that there should be an amnesty in respect of that offence. I believed that the events which were revealed before tho special committee on the North- West troubles proved that •we were in duty bound to grant that amnesty, that we were in honor bound to grant that amnesty ; and so believing I acted upon that belief and sustained, as I have said, by every force in my power tho proposition that an amnesty should be granted. That amnesty was a very effectual and com- plete transaction. It was not granted simply upon tho responsibility of tho Crown without the approval of the people's representatives. The people's representatives wore asked to take the initiative, at the instance, of course, of tho responsible Ministers of the Crown, and they did so by an overwhelming majority, in which you are to count, not merely that very large majority that voted for the granting of that amnesty, but also all those who voted for the grant- ing of an unconditional amnesty and may have recorded their votes against this one because it was conditional. There was not absolute unanimity. The Minister of Customs was, I have no doubt, Protestant, as Riel says, upon that subject, as some others were, and the First Minister declined to vote upon that occa- sion at nil, so his opinions were left to be gathered from rather indefinite observations. But take it all round both as to political parties and as to the absolute majority, there was a very close approach to unanimity. The hon. member for Ottawa has made a discovery on the head of this and has found that because Riel was amnestied on the condition that he should absent himself from Canada for five years, and because for some sixteen months of those five yenrs he was confined as a lunatic in a lunatic asylum by the authority of and at the instance of the Local Government of the Province of Quebec in Canada, he thus broke tho condition and made himself liable, but for the leniency, kindness and consideration of this Government, to be executed forthwith upon his being found in tho country and caught by the constables. Such is the view of tho hon. member for Ottawa upon the criminal law. Ho has supported it by some extracts from a book upon con- tracts, dealing with civil rights, and with the somewhat complicated question of the voidable character of agreements when made by a person of insane mind. But I will tell the hon. member, without endeavoring to enlighten h m upon these subjects, that my opinion is that (he presence in this country of Riel in an insane state should not be taken as a breach of that condition in point of law, and that I little regard it, for I believe it would bo considered even if it were a nominal, a technical breach, as nothing less in tho literal sense of the term than a judicial murder if advantage had been taken of tho pre- sence of this lunatic to award execution against him. 1 tliorofore pass from this essay of the hon. member for Ottawa, into the rogious of criminal law. I am a little surprised that it should bo said that I am not free to exorcise my judgment now, and to decide as to tho extent of Kiel's responsibility, because, in common, I believe, with a very largo majority of my fellow-countrymen, I came to a particular conclusion which I still retain, with reference to the events of 1869 and 18*70, which had been amnestied in 1875, How of my critics ? Was the Minister of Customs free to come to such a conclusion ? Was ho hampered by the views he held on that topic in tho earlier days? Was he hampered by his declina- ture to vote oven for the amnesty ? Was not he perfectly free to deal with this question in his executive capacity, en- tirely irrespective, as he was bound to do, of tho view that he held that tho death of Scott was in fact a cruel murder ? How of tho Secretary of Stale ? As I have said, I was exposed to a storm of obloquy in certain portions of this Dominion because I had attirmed tho proposition I have rrentioned with reference to tho death of Scott. Different views upon that subject were stated by many hon. gentle- men, and amongst them was tho Secretary of State, who was of an entirely different opinion with reference to the question of the execution of Scott. My hon. friend from East (iueboc, read the other day the resolutions which the hon. gentleman obtained to be passed by the Legislative tfr AsBembly of Qaebeo upon that subjeot. I have herd in addition an extract from a Hpeoch of the lion, gentleman, made in support of those reHolutions on the 18th of Decem- ber, 1874 : (Tranilation.) " I DOW come to a burniDK Doint, to an unfortanate eTent which must bav« aet ablaze the whole of UanaJa, to the only fault committed by the liroTisionnl Oorernmeat of Manitoba. "Attempts have been made to throw on a fewindiTiduaU, the reapun- eibility which oui;ht to fall on the shoulders of all those who baa en- trusted Riel and his followers to protect and to lead them. This unfor- tunate act which I condemn and regret was committed by persona who beliered in sood faith that it was necessary to the aafety of the communi- ty, and of tne Government which they considered as legal because it emanated from the popular suffrage. All that can bo said on the execu- tion of Scott, has been often repeated. It ig a subject which it Is proper to leaTe in oblivion, in order to avoid arousing national feeling. I adk that it should be forgotten just as I desire that no more should be said about the murder of Ooulet and the other half-breeds. Blood calls for blood, and ihere was cuongh spilled to satisfy both parties, even if we admit — a thing which I will not admit — that the two nationalities who are contending on this point should require this barbarous reparation." Of course this statement made by the hon. gentleman, who in the remaining part of his speech pointed out that he knew something ot this matter, who himRclf had been the counsel for Ldpine upon his trial for that murder, naturally produced a great impression amongst his compatriots, and would have the etJPeot of causing me to be regarded amongst them as a very cruel, hard-hearted and unjust man, who had proceeded so to deal with transactions which the hon. gentleman, avec connaissance de cause, has so des- cribed. I am relieved from those imputationn, so far as those imputations may bo due to any weight which his compatriots at that time placed in the words and statements of the Secretary of State, by bis recent utterancen. I arn going at this moment to try another mode of arriving at the hon. gentleman's recent statement. I am afraid from the type that it is from the same unhappy paper, but it is a letter I am about to quote, and perhaps by some fortunate accident it may have been correctly copied. The letter of the hon. gentleman to his constituents contains these wordf t " Riel was informed of it " — That is, of the arrival or approaching arrival of Monsigneur Tach4 — " Riel was informed of It, and feeling that bis reigrn was about to close, did not hesitate to throw a corpse between himself and the conciliation which was arriving with the holy missionary. Scott was immolated and his blood thrown as defiance at all efforts at reconciliation. • * Last winter was not Riel's debut in this course of high treason. His revolt in 1869 will be rcmembi-red— the useless murder of Scott, whom he caused to be executed when that poor unfortunate was in a position where it was impoasible for him to injure his captor." I am going to try another plan of being correct this time, and I shall take the Montreal Gazette's report of the Secre- tary's speech at Terrebonne, in which ho said, with reforonoo to his action in 1871, in the case of Lupine: " I defended my client, and during that defence I had proof, and the best proof too, that the killing of the unfortunate Scott was one of the most atrocious murders ever committed. That atrocious murder wag without the connivance and without the approval of Lepine, but it was the result of the selfijh vengeance of the then dictator of the North- West— Louis Riel." Now, Sir, perhaps the hon. member for North Perth (Mr. HesBon), with that accurate appreciation of motives and that Christian ch'^rity which animates hina in the exercise of that appreciation, will dif with reference to the diaries not brought down. I have been told that of the Orders in Council of the provisional government, which are in the custody of this Governmont, the very first is an order declaring Riel a prophet, something after the fashion of John the Baptist, 1 have shown you he called himself Blias and Peter, and this order, 1 believe, represents him as John the Baptist. The next order was one altering the days of the week and so forth. All those things and many statements that were made, some of thorn at an earlier period, as to circumstances which had occurred, were worthy of attention^ So wore tho letters written with reference to the trial. At the close of the trial, the correspondent of the Mail reported that Dr. Clark, after having hoard the evidence which was called since Riel's examination, and after having heard the prisoner himself speak, was ouite convinced he was insane. I say the case was one in wnich it was incumbent on the Administration, if they felt a doubt as to the propriety of commutation, to have a thorough medical examination and enquiry. The medical examination they caused was limited in scope. Sir John A. Macdonald's letter expressly points that out. We have not the instructions to these gentlemen, but Sir John's letter to the Minister of Miiitia pointed out that it was limited to the question whether Riel's condition had become so much worse since his trial that he was no longer capable ol knowing right from wrong. It was not therefore such an enquiry as has been frequently made in oases infinitely weaker than this ; it was not an enquiry which involved the real question : What was the condition of his mind at the time of the oflfence, which constituted the crime he com- mitted? What was the condition of his mind before that time ? So with reference to tho very important point of hereditary insanity, I have read in the Mail the statement that his mother went into a state of absolute craziness during the rebellion, and a statement of her fall- ing into the same condition at a subseqent period, when she heard ot tho oouviction — a oiroumstance, tho importanoo 29 it forward, Bzeontivo, rd if there an efficient '6 would be to the dr- ier's mind, e mind of londition of aptod to be partiou- ailed. Now ol no good, implied he obliged to he woald. he law was erdict, but the state of meut af ter- in his let- for twenty nan was the reference of Militia erises Biel number of lered from but which r. So with >le traces of it effusion I an can read rrote it was i diaries not Orders in are in the i an order e fashion of limself Eiias lim as John ) days of the statements }eriod, as to [>f attention^ > the trial, ent of the riog heard i nation, and was (mite De in wnich they felt a to hare a he medical I. Sir John We have Sir John's ;hat it was had become ger capable refore such IB infinitely ih involved lis mind at ime he com- before that rtant point I Mail the of absolute of her fall- d, when she importance of which, in coiihidoiing what tho real condition of this man'H mind was, cannot be overbtated, as must bo extremely familiar to all thofo who have made mental alienation a HtuJy. These gontlorccn wore not Bpccialistst. I)r. Valado certainly was not; Dr. Lavoll had very limited exjjorionco, having had, for a Hhort number of yearn only, the charge of the criminal lunaticH in tho Kingston penitentiary, because up to a comparatively recent period tho criminal lunuticn wore transferred to Rockwood which was under other ordern, Jjr. Lavell uIho, if 1 bo rightly informed aw to liiw views upon u lute occabion, that of LeoV examination, wan a very improper [.orson to send to find Kiel sane or innane, because ujioti that occai-ioii, if I am rightly informed, his opinion was that tho man was sane though the others found him insane. Tho exports, also, who had been examined at tho trial, took no part in the subsequent examination, except, perhaps. Dr. Jukes, who did not take any real pait in it. Then wo have not the reports of tho commission — wo liavo only this oditionof their reports which bus been laid on the Table— and wo do not know what their instructions wero or what woro the reports on whi(;h tho Govornravnt acted. I say, how- ever, that, for tho purposi of a proper difchargo of tho duties of tho Plxocutivo it. cases of disordered intollecl, though not amounting to irresponsibility, those reports, even such as they are, brought down, wore of tho high- est importance. They prove the genuine oxisleneo of delusions and hallucinations on tho subjects of rol'gion aud politics, on the very subjects, on which llio delusions and hallucinations were proved, in respect of which tho crime was committed. They show that these woro persistent ; and my conclusion is clear that Riol was so disordered in miiid as not, within the accepted rule, to have been a proper subject lor tho capital sentence. It is impossible, in cases of serious delusiou or so called monomania, to be sure how far tho flaw has affected tho conduct in question. It may not have affected it in some cases, though whothcr it did or not is very frequently a question beyond the wit of man to determine. But hero wo know it did, because we know that the flaw had regard to these very two points of religion and politics upon which this rising and ihe.^e events turned. Ciiminal roisponsibility, then, for public security there may and must do, though there may be some mental disorder ; but not responsibility unto death ; and hero again comes in the political nature of tho offence, tho gene- ral rules relating to these ofFoncos and tho special circum- stances of the conduct of the Government in this matter; and my belief, therefore, is, that the maximum sentence for the same crime of which Eiol was convicted, had he been tried under the milder procedure of tho modern law under which his colleagues were tried, namely imprison- ment for lifo, would have been tho proper and adequate disposition of his case. But if the Government doubted this, there was an imperative call for thorough and efflciont enquiry, for an enquiry going far beyond what was posnible at Kogina, and extending to the condition of tho criminal not only at that moment, but at other times; thoro was imperative ground for such an enquiry before a determina- tion should bo reached that tho seritenco should be oxo- cuted. My own opinion is, then, that a great wron/i; has boon done, and a great blow has boon inflicted upon tho administration of criminal justice ; and for this the I-j.kocu- tivo is responsible to us. I know tho atmosphere of Erejudico and passion which surround.s this case ; I know ow diflScult it will bo for years to come lo penetrate that dense atmosphere; I know how many pe)j)lo of my own race and af iny own creed entertain sentiments and feel- ings hostile to the conclusion to which I have been driven; I know that many whom I esteem atui in. whose judgment I have contidonco, after examination of ihis case, have been unable " ; reach my own conclusion, I lilaiao no (jno. Each has the right af.d duty to oxamiiio and judge for himself. But cries have boon raised on both sides which are potent, most potent in [jrovcuiing tho public from coming to a just conclusion ; yet v/o must, not, l)y any such cries, bo doturi'od from doing our duty. 1 have been ihroatened loore than cce by hon. gontlomon op|)osito during this debate with political annihilation in consequence of tho attitude of the Liberal party which they projected on this question ; and I so far agree with them as to udmiL that tho vote 1 am about lo give is an ino.tpodioui " .^o, and that, if politics woro a game, I should b-.i maki^ : ;. false move. I should bo glad to bo nblo to roach a ooncliifion different from that which is said by tho ht>n gentleman to bo Kkoly to weaken my ir.flueiice and imperil my poeitioii. Eut it can bo said of none of us, Icuat of all of the humble individual who now addrossus you, that his continued por-sc.^sion of a snare oi puiiiic confidence, of tho lead of a party, or of a seat, in Par- liament, is essential or even hij^hly irajtoitant to tho public interest; while for all of us what is needful is not that wo should retain biU that we should doB<;ivo tho public confidonco ; not that we should keep, but that while wo do keep wo should houcstl}- use, our seats in Parliament. To act otherwise would bo to grasp at the shadow and to lose tho substance; propter vitam vivendi perdere causas. We may bo wrong — we must bo true — wo should be ready to close, but resolved to keep unstained our public careers. I am unable honestly lo differ from the view that it is deeply to bo regretted that this execution should have been allowed to take place, an J therefore in favoi' of that viow I must record my vote.