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VRte^ 
 
 ^^4^'i^^m^ : ^0^^i^^^^_^^ ^^^m^^^^^^(k^^^^^9^m>!M^^ 
 
 REPORT OF THE PROCEEDINGS 
 
 OF THE 
 
 TAX EXEMPTION 
 
 HELD IN THE 
 
 CITY Hall, TORONTO 
 
 ON THE 
 
 9TH AND loTH OF SEPTEMBER, 1897 
 
 " '''It 
 
 ->j ' ' ^ as- 
 
CANADA 
 
 NATIONAL LIBRARY 
 
 LiBLIOTHEQUE NATIONALE 
 

 
 A- 
 
 REPORT OF THE PROCEEDINGS 
 
 OF THE 
 
 m EXEMPTIDN CONyENTlflN 
 
 HKLl) IN THE 
 
 CITY HALL, TORONTO 
 
 ON THE 
 
 9TH AND loTH OF SEPTEMBER, 1897 
 
T3 
 
 i 
 
 \ 
 
TAX EXEMPTION CONVENTION HELD IN THE COUNCIL CHAMBER 
 OF THE CITY HALL, IN THE CITY OP TORONTO ON THURS- 
 DAY AND FRIDAY, THE 9TH AND lOTH DAYS OF 
 SEPTEMBER. 1897. 
 
 ^^^^ > 
 
 Thursday, September 9th, 10 o'clock, a.m. 
 
 His Worship, Mayor Shaw, of the City of Toronto, culled the Convention 
 to order and addressed the members as follows: 
 
 We are delighted to have delegations, in connection with any business, 
 meet in Toronto, but the delegation in connection with the question of tax 
 exemption is most welcome; I may say doubly and thrice welcome are the 
 delegates to a convention which will grapple with the vexed question of 
 taxation. 
 
 Here in Toronto we have several kinds of taxation; we have a taxation 
 according to value, we have a taxation according to foot frontage, and we 
 have something in the nature of a poll tax for water takers. 
 
 You, perhaps, will be specially called upon to deal with exemptions. 
 That question is always before our municipal body; we have attempted to 
 get legislation that would do away with exemptions but hitherto we have 
 failed. And now we have called together the representatives of the muni- 
 cipal bodies from all over the Province of Ontario, hoping that we may be 
 able to get such an expression of opinion from them, and such united effort 
 and concerted action as will force the local legislature to do away with 
 exemptions. ,, ,.■,,.■";.,: - ^-^:. ^ \-<'.. ^ , .-■.- :■*--.,>: 
 
 That any property which receives the benefit of police and fire pro- 
 tection, the cleaning and watering of the streets, and such other services as 
 are absolutely necessary for the health, comfort and conv<*nience of the 
 citizens should not pay any portion of the cost of these services seems to 
 me incomprehensible. I do not know upon what sound principle of econo- 
 mics such a state of things exists. You will most likely find that it rests 
 upon political exigencies baead upon a theory. 
 
 It is your duty, I believe, to consider well this question of tax exemption, 
 and I would ask you also to consider another question which I myself am 
 deeply interested an, I refer to the question of the taxation of foot frontage 
 for the payment for sidewalks and other local improvements. 
 
 Your first duty will be to elect a chairuian, and then, of course, will 
 arise such other questions in connection with the whole question of taxation 
 as may come up. I do not know that you are entirely confined to the ques- 
 
tlon of exemptions; I think, porhaps. your deliberations will take a broader 
 sc<»pe. and you will deal with many questions connected with taxation l:e- 
 side the question of exemptions. 
 
 I again welcome you to Toronto and trust your visit will be a pleasant 
 as well as a profitable one. 
 
 I would ask you to proceed to business. (Applause). 
 
 Mayor Johnston. Belleville — I think it is fitting that the gentleman who 
 occupies the position of Mayor of the City of Toronto should preside at this 
 meeting as Chairman, and I have much pleasure in making a motion to that 
 effect. 
 
 Mayor Radford. Gait — I have much pleasure in seconding the motion. 
 
 Mayor Shaw — Before that motion is put I might state that I would be 
 most delighted to be your chairman, because 1 take a deep interest in the 
 questions that will come before you, but it will be impossible for me to act 
 as your cliairman, as within the next two or three days I have to visit a 
 great many places. I have a number of meetings to attend and a lot of busi- 
 ness to look after. 
 
 Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton — I have very much pleasure in recommend- 
 ing to this Convention Mayor Elliot, of Brantford. for the chair. 
 
 Aid. McAndrew. Hamilton — I second that. 
 
 W. A. Clarke, York Township — I nominate Aid. Carlyle as Chairman. 
 He lives in the city and has taken a great intierest in matters connected with 
 taxation, and I think he would be a very suitable gentleman to be chairman 
 of this Convention. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, 'I'oronto — I thank the gentleman for the complimi-nt fo 
 kindly paid me, but I have my own opinion about this matter, as I have 
 given it some thought. The Corporation of the City of Toronto have taken 
 the initiative in the matter, they have done the work of organiz.ati<m, and 
 everything that has so far been done has been done by them, and now we 
 want those from the outside to come in at this stage and assist us, and one 
 of the ways in which that can be accomplished is by giving us a chairman 
 from the outside. I decline the nomination. I would like to move that the 
 Mayor of Kingston, Mr. G. S. Skinner, be the presiding officer of this Con- 
 vention. 
 
 Mayor Johnson. Belleville — I would move that Aid. Scott, of Toronto, be 
 chairman of this Convention. 
 
 Mayor Shaw called for further nominations, there being no further 
 
 that 
 
I 
 
 nominees he stated that there were throe names before the Convention, 
 candidates lor the office of chairman, namely Mayor Elliott. Brantford; 
 Mayor Skinner, Kingston; and Aid. Scott, of Toronto; and, on a vote having 
 been taken declared Aid. Scott, ot Toronto, duly elected to the office of 
 chairman. 
 
 Ald. Scott in the Chaih. 
 
 Aid. Scott — I beg to thank you for the nomination and appointment. 
 The next order of business, which I think may now fairly be taken up, is 
 the appointment of a Secretary. We are now ready to receive nominations. 
 The following gentlemen were nominated for the office of Secretary: Mayor 
 .Johnson, Belleville (declined); W. A. Clarke, York Township (declined); 
 Cuunciller Southei*an, Lindsay (declined). 
 
 The Chairman — I do not think that any gentleman need be deterred 
 from taking the office. We have a shorthand reporter who will make a 
 report of the proceedings and the duties of the Secretary will be compara- 
 tively light. 
 
 Councillor Laughton. Toronto .Junction, moved, seconded by Aid. 
 Carlyle that Aid. Leslie, Toronto, be Secretary of this Convention. 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — I object, and it is with some h«'sitancy. but 
 T think it would be wise for the sake of this Cimventiou that the two chief 
 officers of this, the first Convention, should not be from the City of Toronto. 
 I would like it to be so arranged that when we go home to Hamilton they 
 cannot say that this was a Toronto Convention .solely in the inter<'sts of the 
 City of Toronto, but that it is in the interests of the Province of Ontario. 
 
 Aid. Leslie, Toronto — I heartily concur with the last speaker; Alderman 
 Carlyle and myself have been strongly of the opinion that outsiders should 
 be the presiding officers of this Convention, but if outsiders are going to 
 decline, I, as one of the Toronto delegates, am prepared to try to further the 
 success of this Convention. We are here to do work, and not to decline or 
 shirk duty. I have not the slightest desire to be Secretary, but still if no 
 one else will take the office I am willing to act. 
 
 The Chairman called for further nominations. 
 
 Mayor Elliott, Brantford, moved, seconded by Aid. Finlay. Hamilton, 
 that Aid. Howard. Guelph. be appointed Secretary. 
 
 Aid. Howard, Guelph— I decline the nomination. 
 
 Cries of " vote; vote." . >. , ^ . . < ^.i- ,:. • , * 
 
 -It f^^j^li^l! 
 
6 
 
 There being no further nominations the Chalrraan, on a vote being 
 taken, declared Aid. Li-slie, Toronto, unanimously electt'd to the office of 
 Secretary. 
 
 Aid. Leslie— I thank you very kindly for the important position to which 
 you have elected me, and I will endeavor to discharge my duties to the best 
 of my ability. 
 
 Five o'clock, p.m., was fixed as the hour at which, at the invitation 
 of the Mayor and Aldernu'n of the City of Toronto, the visiting delegates 
 should partake of a luncheon at Webb's Parlors, Yonge street. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I might say with regard to the programme be- 
 fore you that it is not like the laws of the Medes and Persians; you can 
 alter it in any way you like. I do not think the next item that we should 
 have a Committee on Credentials is necessary. 
 
 The Chairman — This programme gives the order of business which is 
 before the Convention; if this order of business is acceptable to the mem- 
 bers of the Convention it would be well to move the adoption of it as the 
 order of procedure. ; 
 
 Aid. Parnell, Loudon — I would move that the order laid down in the 
 pamphlet before us be the order of business governing this 'Convention. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham— It is stated on this pamphlet that all motions 
 shall immediately go to the Committee on Resolutions. If, during the pro- 
 ceedings, I feel inclined to bring in a motion, which I may not be able to 
 bring in this morning before we adjourn, but may be able to bring it in this 
 afternoon, will I be in order in doing so? 
 
 The Chairman— That is matter entirely for the Convention to deal with. 
 
 Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls— Supposing a question comes up for dis- 
 cussion anvi I feel I ought to move a resolution on it, shall I be debarred 
 by this order of proctniure from mo ig a resolution at the time? 
 
 The Chairman — That is for the Conventi(»n to say. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto— My dea of that is simply this, that any resolu- 
 tiou on something new will have to go to the Committee on ResoIuti(ms, but 
 should an amendment be moved to the report of that Committee, then that 
 can be taken up at once by t' Convention and dealt with. 
 
 On motion the word "may" was substituted for the word "shall" in 
 the clause of the programme referring motions to the Committee on 
 Resolutions. 
 
 was 
 
 take] 
 the 
 mei 
 take! 
 ' side/ 
 
 therJ 
 numi 
 up 
 
 inter 
 
 W 
 
Mayor Smyth, Lindsay — I wish to ask for information. I undi^rstand 
 that the question of whether this shall bt; an annual convention or not will 
 bo before us, and I would like to know whether the programme provides 
 for that? If it does not I would move that a clause providing for that be 
 added to the order of business. 
 
 W. J. Smale, North Bay — I second that. 
 
 The Chairman put the motion which, on a vote having been taken, was 
 declared carried, the proposed clause to be inserted in the order of business 
 before tht; final adjournment on Friday. 
 
 Aid. Cnrlyle, Toronto — I would like to have a word to say with regard to 
 that. This question of an annual gathering is a very important matter, and 
 I do not think it should Ik> left until the dying hours of this Convention. 
 When nearing the close of a Convention many of the members go away. Let 
 us deal with the matter either to-night, or let it be the first order of busi- 
 ness for to-morrow morning, so that justice may be donvi to it. 
 
 I move, seconded by Aid. Howard, Guelph, that the question of the 
 annual gathering be the first order of business Friday morning. 
 
 Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound — Before the question is voted upon, 1 
 would like to say I do not see any better time for dealing with this question 
 than now. I think we might settle it in a few minutes. I move in amend- 
 ment that the question be settled now. 
 
 J. L. McCullough, East Toronto — I second that. 
 
 The Chairman put the amendment which, on a vote having been taken, 
 was declared lost. 
 
 The Chairman then put the original resolution, which on a vote having 
 been taken, was declared carried. 
 
 D. Robertson, St. Catharines — I would move that no new business be 
 taken up at the afternoon session on Friday. My reason for that is that at 
 the latter part of a Convention of any kind usually a good many of the 
 members disappear before the Convention is through, and if new business is 
 taken up after that it might be carried through without receiving due con- 
 sideration. 
 
 Mayor Quinlan, Port Hope — I second the motion. As has been stated, 
 there might be something taken up and put through with only a very small 
 number of the members of the Convention present. Business might be taken 
 up when there would not be a third of the members present, and the entire 
 intent of the lai-ger body chauf^ed by some resolution then being brought in 
 
8 
 
 <l 
 
 and cnrrit'd through. 1 think it is only lair that ut that meeting nothing 
 new should be taken up. I think the sentiments of this Convention will bo 
 generally known in the first three sessions, and nothing new should be 
 brought up that would change the entire intent of this Convention. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx. Chatham — We should not lay down any cast iron rules In 
 this first meeting; we should be as easy and free as possible. Every one 
 who repri'sents a constituency must know that he is expected to do his duty. 
 I for one will not shrink from doing my duty. 
 
 (Cries of " motion, motion." 
 
 D. Robertson. St. Catherines — I would like to sjiy, with the permission 
 of the delegates, that while I have not changed my views one particle with 
 regard to ihe desirability of such a clause, I do not wish to see any time | 
 wasted, and, with the permission of my seconder, I will withdraw the motion. 
 
 Mayor Quinlan, Port Hope — I feel sure from the expression of this meet- 
 ing that they do not wish it. I have no doubt but that in this meeting, like 
 all other meetings, there are those who have given this matter very careful 
 study, and no doubt they wish their views carried out, and I feel the best 
 thing I can do is to give my consent to the withdrawal of the motion, and 
 in doing so I feel quite assured that those who have given this their careful 
 consideration will carry through just what they intended. Motion with- 
 drawn. 
 
 The Chairman put the motion to adopt the printed programme as 
 amended as the order of procedure for this Convention, which, on a vote 
 having been taken, was declared carried. 
 
 Mayor Hewer Guelph, moved, seconded by Mayor Radford, Gait, that the 
 following gentlemen comprise the Committee on Credentials. Mayor Johnson, 
 Belleville; Mayor Skinner, Kingston; Mayor Elliott, Brantford; and Mayor 
 Barnes, Smith's Falls. 
 
 The Chairman put the motion, which, on a vote being taken, was de- 
 clared carried. 
 
 Mayor Elliott. Brantford, moved, seconded by Aid. Parnell, of Loudon. 
 th.at the following gentlemen compose the Committee on Resolutions: Mayor 
 Hewer, Guelph; Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton; Aid. McKelvey. Kingston; Aid. 
 Duncan, Brantford; Aid. Carlyle, Toronto; Mayor Smyth, Lindsay; W. A. 
 Clarke, Clerk, York Township; Mayor Wright, St. Thomas; and Mayor 
 Thompson. Owen Sound. 
 
 The Chairman put the moti(m, which, on a vote having been taken was 
 declared carried. ^ ; ,.; - 
 
9 
 
 I 
 
 g nothing 
 )n will bo 
 should bo 
 n. 
 
 m rules in 
 Every ont* 
 3 his duty. 
 
 permission 
 irticle with, 
 e any time 
 the motion. 
 
 : this meet- 
 leeting, like 
 irery careful 
 >ei the best 
 motion, and 
 heir careful 
 [otion with- 
 
 Dgramme as 
 L, on a vote 
 
 talt, that the 
 yor Johnson, 
 ; and Mayoi? 
 
 ken, was de- 
 
 1, of Loudon, 
 itions: Mayor | 
 :ingston; Aid. t 
 iidsay; W. A. " 
 ; and Mayor 
 
 ;en taken was 
 
 Communications. 
 
 The Secretary, Aid. Leslie, read communications from Mr. John Hogg, 
 Collingwood, Mr. P^lannory, North Bay, Mayor Smyth, Lindsay, Single Tax 
 Association, A. C. Thompson, Secretary, Geo. J. Bryan of the Henry George 
 Club, and Mr. J. L. McCulloch, East Toronto; also list of tax exemption^ 
 prepared by City Solicitor, Toronto; also Resolution from the City ot HamM- 
 ton; which were reterred to the Committee on Resolutions. 
 
 Motions. 
 Moved by Aid. Carlyle, Toronto, seconded by W. J. Smale, North Bay: 
 
 Whereas wo believe tkat in this Province the burden of taxation is not 
 equitably distributed, and that this inequality arises principally from the 
 fact that under the Assessment Act a large amount of real estate, personalty 
 and income, is wholly or partially exempt from taxation; 
 
 And whereas we are of the opinion that it is only fair and just that 
 all who partake directly or indirectly in the benefits of municipal govern- 
 ment should pay a fair proportion of the expense thereof; 
 
 Be it resolved, that in the opinion of this Convention the Legislature of 
 the Province of Ontario should bo memorialized to revise and amend the 
 said Act, embodying so far as practicable the principles set forth in the 
 following clauses: 
 
 That this Convention is in favor of the principle of assessing each in- 
 dividual according to his or her actual worth on real and personal property 
 without discrimination, and that companies, whether incorporated or not, 
 in this respect shall be treated as individuals. 
 
 That this Convention is in favor of the principle of abolishing all tax 
 exemptions. 
 
 Moved by Aid. Carlyle, Toronto, seconded by P. W. Robinson. Stieets- 
 ville: 
 
 That it be an instruction to the Executive Committee appointed by this 
 Convention to take such steps as is deemed necessary to have the two fol- 
 lowing questions submitted to a vote of the persons qualified to vote at 
 the Municipal Elections to be held in January next. 
 
 1. Are you in favor of the principle of assessing each individual accord- 
 ing to his or her actual worth in real and personal property? 
 
 2. Are you in favor of the principle of abolishing all exemptions 
 
10 
 
 And in the event of one or both of these questions being answend in 
 the affi'-mative by a majority of the electors in a majority of the municipali- 
 ties where the questions shall have been submitted, then such further steps 
 shall be taken as the Committee deems necessary to secure legislation on 
 these lines. 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— I will put this resolution in. It was passed 
 by the Hamilton City Council on March 18th, 1897: " That a petition be 
 presented to the Parliament of Canada, (this petition was presented by A. T. 
 Wo(td, Esq., M.P., for Hamilton), asking that all salaries of officials employ- 
 ed under the Dominion Government be made subject to be taxed by all 
 municipalities in the same manner as the salaries of other persons in such 
 municipalities, and that such salaries be also made liable to attachment for 
 debt to the same extent as the salaries of other persons." 
 
 Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton — I second the motion. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chaitham — I claim thai the assessment of an equal tax 
 is unjust, particulR,rly as to the tax on income. Why should a school teacher 
 or a poor minister of the Gospel who is getting $1,500 be assessed compara- 
 tively as high as a taxpayer or ratepayer who is getting $10,000? 
 
 Aid. Emory, Hamilton — Is this in order? This is not the time for dis- 
 cussion. 
 
 The Chairman — I think this is not the time for discussion. Thesw 
 motions are simply put in, in order that they may be referred to the Com- 
 mittee on Resolutions for consideration. When that Committee reports 
 upon these resolutions then discussion will be in order. 
 
 I 
 
 Reading op Papers. 
 
 J. L. MoCu'loch, East Toronto — I have mislaid the paper I intended to 
 read, but if it makes no difference I will state what I had intended to state 
 in reading the paper. 
 
 The Convention conseutefl to Mr. McCulloch stating verbally what was 
 contained in his paper. 
 
 J. L. McCulloch, East Toronto — The reason I take this opportunity of 
 speaking upon the subject of taxing Street Railways is owing to the fact of 
 our municipality being the first municipality in the Province of Ontario (if 
 I am informed correctly) that has assessed and collected taxes from a street 
 railway company. 
 
 In the year 18r>6 our Assessor assessed for the year 1896, And also for 
 
11 
 
 also for 
 
 1895, the Toronto & Scarboro' Ry. Co. upon their line which runs through 
 our village, and hf was successful in collecting those taxes. Upon tho assess- 
 ment being made in 1897 the Company appealed against the assessment, and 
 it went before the County Judge, and the same Judge who dismissed their 
 appeal last year allowed it this year, so that we are out of It for 1897. 
 
 Now, I think, owing to the position that street railways are taking 
 and are going to take throughout the Province of Ontario, this question of 
 taxation will become more and more a question with the municipalities 
 through which they run. Those of us who have had actual experience with 
 these corporations find that they are very unruly and very hard to manage, 
 especially in our own little village, where we have had almost a hand to 
 hand fight. It might be interesting to know that the Toronto Railway Com- 
 pany presumed to build just where they lik<'d. without reference to the 
 municipality through which they wished to run. They laid down rails this 
 pummer and we promptly put them in the ra.vine; and, at the same time 
 they had an action in court asking the court to give them permission and 
 power to build the road, which we refused, and the matter is still before Ihe 
 courts. They took this high handed way of currying out their intentions. 
 Fortunately they have not been able to build the road, although what the 
 outcome will be we do not know. However, my, brother councilmen and 
 myself are in this position, we are <;ommitted to stand our trial for the 
 removal of those rails, and the magistrate who has committed us for trial, 
 in his clemency, says he will give us the benefit of the doubt. It is a most 
 peculiar judgment aJid one that would be interesting reading for magis- 
 trates. He sets out in the judgment that there is no damage to the rails, 
 but he finds subsequent damages may amount to over $20; he finds also 
 that the Toronto Railway Company did wrong in putting the rails there, 
 and then he concludes all by siiying he gives the defendants the ben(>fit 
 of the doubt and commits them for trial. What the outcome of this may 
 be we do not know. However, we arc not particularly anxious as long as 
 we are able to maintain our rights. This is a case where a powerful cor- 
 poration is trying to steal what does not belong to it simply because our^ 
 is a small municipality. I think it is something that interests not only 
 East Toronto, but every other municipality in the Province of Ontario. 
 Some day they will all have this matter to deal with, and the question 
 should be now finally st>ttled whether the municipality has the power it 
 presumes it has or not. 
 
 As regards the taxing of. the property of the Company, and I wish to 
 pivr credit to whom it is due, it was through the conversations of our 
 .Assessor with the City Assessor that the City of Toronto first made an 
 attempt to make an asseaament upon the Railway Company. The late 
 
1'2 
 
 
 Assessment Commissioner, Mr. Maughan, was in consultation with our 
 Assessor, and it was owing to his persuasive powers that Mr. Maughan 
 made the first attempt to collect taxes from the Company. 
 
 There is no reason, to my mind, why a railway company should be 
 exempt from taxation on their rails, poles, wires and franchise, any more 
 than a man engaged in the grocery or dry feoods business should be; it is 
 not an industry that creates employment particularly; it as simply an en- 
 terprise that follows upon the industry of others; and its wealth and its 
 revenue exist because of the industry of other people, or of the community: 
 and why it should be singled out and allowed to escape is a peculiar matter. 
 It enjoys its income and d'ivideuds. which are assessable, from the com- 
 munity in which it exists, but the dividends may be paid we don't know 
 where, and consequently the assessor cannot get at them. I think in this 
 Convention some steps should be taken asking the legislature to make it 
 perfectly clear that all property of a street railway company should be 
 assessed, and not assessed alone as to so much value in wire and material, 
 but as to the value of its revenue producing qualities. 
 
 That is the real gist of what I had intended to say in my paper. This 
 question of assessment should include not only the rails, poles, wires, etc., 
 but the value it has as a revenue producer; the same as the value in land. 
 Land is not assessed for what it costs; the City of Toronto does not assess 
 the land on the corner of Yonge and King streets for what it cost the pur- 
 chaser, but for what its value is as a revenue producer; and, I think, when 
 the Street Railway Company is assessed it should be assessed in like 
 manner. 
 
 I thank you for your courtesy in listening to my remarks. 
 
 On motion of Alderman Carlyle, Toronto, seconded by Mayor Hewer. 
 Guelph, the Committee on Resolutions were given permission to retire for 
 the purpose of considering the matters placed before them. 
 
 Mayor Elliott (Brantford), moved, seconded by Aid. Keating (St. 
 Catharines), that members be allowed during the adjournment to hand in 
 resolutions which shall be referred to the Committee on Resolutions, which, 
 on a vote having been taken was declared carried. 
 
 Reeve Hill, York Township, moved, seconded by Aid. Emory, Hamilton, 
 that the Convention do now adjourn until two o'clock, p.m.. which on a 
 vote having been taken was declared carried. 
 
 Convention adjourned. 
 
 : 
 
 f th.' 
 u 
 
 to 
 Dc 
 
13 
 
 ith our 
 laughan 
 
 lould be 
 ny more 
 be; It is 
 y an en- 
 
 and its 
 nmunity; 
 r matter, 
 the com- 
 n't Icnow 
 k in this 
 I make it 
 ihould be 
 
 material, 
 
 per. This 
 ,rires, etc., 
 e in land, 
 not assess 
 t the pur- 
 ink, when 
 3d in like 
 
 or Hewer, 
 retire for 
 
 sating (St. 
 to hand in 
 ons, which, 
 
 , Hamilton, 
 vhich on a 
 
 2 O CLOCK P.M. 
 
 The Chairman called the Convention to order and stated that the first 
 order of business was the presentation and consideration of the report of 
 the Committee on Credentials. 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville — As my name is the first on the Committee 
 on Credentials I may say on behalf of that Committee that we deemed it 
 unnecessary to meet as the Convention had agreed to take the report of 
 Mr. lilevins. 
 
 The Chairman called for the presentation and consideration of the 
 report of the Committee on Resolutions. 
 
 The Secretary presented and read the report of the Committee on Reso- 
 lutions as follows. 
 
 Your Committee on Resolutions presents its first report. 
 
 No. 1 — We recommend for consideration resolution by Aid. Carlyle and 
 Mr. Smale. 
 
 No. 2 — Resolution by Aid. Carlyle and Mr. P. W. Robinson. 
 
 No. 3 — Resolution by Council of the City of Hamilton. 
 
 No. 4 — Resolution by Mayor Johnson and Aid. Doyle. 
 
 No. 5— Resolution by F. Marx and J. L. McCulloch. 
 
 No. 6 — Resolution by Aid. McAndrew and Aid. Haniiaford. 
 
 No. 7 — Letter from Town of Collingwood. Last clause concurred in. . 
 
 Nos. 8, 9 and 10— Resolutions not recommended. 
 
 No. 11 — Request not recommended. 
 
 No. 12 — No action. Delegate present. 
 
 No. 13 — Letter from Mayor of Lindsay re programme for Friday., 
 
 No. 14 — No action taken. Questions embodied in other resolutions. 
 
 All members of Committee present. 
 
 (Sgd) 
 
 Wm. McAndrew, 
 
 : Ohainiian. 
 
 Mayor Johnson. Belleville, moved, seconded by Mayor Radford, Gait, 
 that the first report of the Committee on Resolutions be received, which, on 
 
 a vote having been taken, was declared carried and the report received. 
 
 ! 
 Hearing Deputations from Diti,y Authorized Bodies. 
 
 The Chairman — I may say in this connection application has been made 
 to me as your Chairman to hear one or two representatives, one, Mr. 
 Douglas, representing the Single Tax Association; I notice also present u 
 
14 
 
 representative of the Property Owners* Association of the Oity of Toronto. 
 I do not know whether there is any other delegation present wishing to 
 address this Convention. What is the wish of the Convention with regard 
 to hen ring a representative from the Single Tax Association? 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — One of those applications was referred to 
 the Conimittee on Resolutions, and they have made a report upon it.. 
 
 The Secretary— Clause No. 11 of the report is a letter from George J. 
 Bryan, asking that the writer, who has been delegated to appear as the 
 representative of the Henry George Club, be given a hearing; and the re- 
 commendation of the Committee is that the request be not granted. Clause 
 No. 14 of the report is with regard to a communication from the Single Tax 
 Aseociation asking certain questions. Of course, this communication was 
 written before the meeting of the Convention, and is simply asking whether 
 it is proposed to abolish this or the other exemption, and whether any notice 
 will be taken of other inequalities, as they claim, in the law. The Com- 
 mittee in its report stated that no action was taken, as these questions are 
 embodied in other resolutions before the Convention. 
 
 The Chairman — What is your wish with regard to the matter? 
 Aid. Harnaford, Hamilton — I move that they be heard. 
 
 Mayor Smyth, Lindsay — The reason we reported as we did was that 
 according to the programme only those who were duly authoi1.^,ed to be 
 present were entitled to a hearing; and if we allowed one to speak who waa 
 not duly authorized we might have to .allow an endless uumbtn' without any 
 recommendation, and it would take up a lot of our time. That is the reason 
 why the Committee did not recommend that this delegate should be allowed 
 to come before the Convention. As to the communication from the Single 
 Tax Association, the same questions were included in the resolution of Alder- 
 man Carlyle, and consequently can be brought up when that resolution is 
 discussed. 
 
 Aid. FInlay, Hamilton — I would second the motion of Aid. Hannaford 
 that Mr. Bryan be heard. I do not think we would be pestered with any 
 other societies, or bothered in the manner in which Mayor Smyth spoke. I 
 would like to hear what Mr. Bryan has to say on the single tax question. 
 
 Mayor .Johnson, Belleville^May I ask whether this pamphlet which 
 was sent to all the delegates before they arrived here emanates from the 
 same society? If it does then T think we have all their arguments before us. 
 Those who have taken the pains (o read this document have gone over, I 
 dare say. very carefuUj their arguments, and if that be so I think it would 
 be unnecessary to hear any verbal Information on the same subject. 
 
 I 
 
 i 
 
 I 
 
 I 
 
 u beei 
 
 I 
 
ts 
 
 f Toronto, 
 vishing to 
 ith regard 
 
 eferred to 
 1 it. 
 
 George J. 
 ear as the 
 jid the re- 
 ed. Clause 
 Single 'Tax 
 cation was 
 ng whether 
 ■ any notice 
 
 The Com- 
 lestions are 
 
 ter? ' 
 
 d was that 
 (rized to be 
 ak who was 
 without any 
 s the reason 
 1 bo allowed 
 1 the Single 
 on of Alder- 
 resolution is 
 
 Hannaford 
 ed with any 
 y^th spoke. I 
 
 question. 
 
 iphlet which 
 tes from the 
 ats before us. 
 
 gone over. I 
 link it would 
 
 subject. 
 
 i 
 
 The Chairman — Mr. Bryan, d(»es this pamphlet contain the views upon 
 which you wish to speak before this Convention? . ...,,•., 
 
 Mr. Bryan — It contained them ihen, but not what I wish to state now. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — The trouble is this, our friend from the Henry 
 George Society has one view a week iigo to-day and another view to-day; 
 what then is the use of hearing his views at all on the matter, because we 
 do not know what his views will be a week hence. If his views are sub- 
 stantially what they were when he penned that document it would be all 
 
 right, but he tells us that they are not the same. ' 
 
 Ik 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville — I would add further that it is quite evident 
 
 that the views this gentleman desires to present to this Convention are 
 simply the views of an individual. If he is a duly accredited representative 
 of a munioipality he will have the right to air his views before this 'Con- 
 vention; if he is not then he has no standing in this Convention at all, and 
 I would not, as an individual, desire to hear his personal views at all. 
 
 The Chairman — With regard to being a duly accredited represeniative, 
 it is within the province of this Convention to hear anyone, if they so desire, 
 if this Convention see fit to hear either of these representatives it is within 
 their province to say they shall. v; ,; ■ 
 
 Mayor Radford, Gait — A great number of us come here for a special pur- 
 pose, for the purpose of discussing tax exemptions, and we are very 
 anxious to get through the work; we are not prepared to come here to listen 
 to any special theories, and I think we ought to settle down to business. . 
 
 The Chairman — It has been moved by Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton, second- 
 ed by Aid. Finlay, Hamilton, that we hear the representative of the Henry 
 George Society for ten minutes. Shall that motion include for ten minutes 
 longer the representative of the Single Tax Association? Then also we have 
 the representative of the Ratepayers' Asssociation of the City of Toronto 
 here, shall he be allowed to speak or shall the representatives of the City 
 of Toronto be considered as representing his views? 
 
 Dr. Barrick — I came here merely for the purpose of hearing these gentle- 
 men discuss this matter; I do not want to be heard, and our Associatioi has 
 not asked to be heard, we want to leave the matter perfectly free to the 
 gentlemen who have come here to discuss it. 
 
 The Chairman put Aid. Hannaford's moti<m, which, on a vote having 
 been taken, was declared lost. 
 
16 
 
 Ir 
 
 CONSIDRRATION OF THK RePOKT OF THE COMMITTER ON KESOLUTIONS. 
 
 The Chairman— I might ask whether it is the wish of thi' members of 
 the Convention that the report be taken up clause by clause in the order in 
 which it is before the Convention? 
 
 i 
 
 Aid. Parnell— I would move that the report be taken np seratim. 
 
 The Chainniin put the motion which, on a vote being taken, was de- 
 clared carried. , • > 
 
 The Secretary read Aid. Carlyle's motion as follows: — 
 
 Moved by Aid. Carlyle, Toronto, seconded by Mr. Smale, North Bay; 
 That whereas we believe that in the Province the burden ot taxation is not 
 equitably distributed, and that this inequality arises principally from the 
 factlhat under tlie Assessment Act a large amount of real estate, personalty 
 and income, is wholly or partially exempt from taxation. 
 
 And whereas we are of the opinion that it is only fair and just that all 
 who partake directly or indirectly in the benefits of municipal government 
 should pay a £air proportion of the expenses thereof; 
 
 Be it resolved, that in the opinion of this Convention the Legislature of 
 the Province of Ontario should be memoralized to revise and amend the said 
 Act, embodying so far as practicable the principles set forth in the following 
 clauses: 
 
 That this Convention is in favor of the principle of assessing each in- 
 dividual according to his or her actual worth on real and personal property 
 without discrimination, and that companies, whether incorporated or not, 
 in this respect shall be treated as individuals. 
 
 That this Convention is in favor of the principle of abolishing all tax 
 exemptions. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I move the adoption of the first clause of the 
 report, namely, my own resolution. In doing so I may say that I do not 
 think it is necessary for me to take up a great deal of the time of the Con- 
 vention. We have tried as far as possible in that resolution to keep clear 
 of all side issues, and simply to try to establish a principle. We want to go 
 to the government with this principle, that all wealth, in whatever form or 
 fashion it is to be found, shall bear its just share of taxation. Now, the 
 question Is asked what is ,a just share? In my humble judgment the share 
 we ought to pay is just in proportion to the benefits we derive from the 
 community in which we live. There is no doubt there is a very great differ- 
 ence of opinion on this matter; there is no doubt a number of delegates have 
 
17 
 
 TIONS. 
 
 embers of 
 e order in 
 
 m. 
 
 1. was de- 
 
 ^orth Bay; 
 
 ,1iou is not 
 
 from the 
 
 personalty 
 
 ust that all 
 government 
 
 gislature of 
 ind the said 
 tie following 
 
 ing each in- 
 nal property 
 ited or not, 
 
 ihing all tax 
 
 lause of the 
 lat I do not 
 1 of the Con- 
 keep clear 
 ;re want to go 
 ever form or 
 a. Now, the 
 !nt the share 
 ive from the 
 ' great differ- 
 elegates have 
 
 one thing and another they wonld like to see exempted, but the very 
 moment we commence to ask lor exemption for this. that, or the other thing. 
 In my humble opinion, we destroy the soundness of our position. Our posi- 
 tion Is to go to the government and get them to c(»nsent to the principle that 
 everything shall bear its just share of taxation, and let the government take 
 the responslbllty of doing the exempting. They do that now. These exemp- 
 tions are established by statute, we cannot alter; them; munlclp.-ilitios h.-ive 
 not power to alter them. Let us then lay the responsibility at the door of 
 t'^e government, I care not which party is In power; let them take the 
 responsibility, and let us simply go with the principle, and not deviate one 
 iota from that principle In one form or another. There is no doubt that 
 there are many things that some people would like to see exempted; but 
 If we go Into these we get Into no end of trouble. Somebody wants the 
 churches exempted, and let me just say this, that exempting the churches Is 
 simply a sentiment, there is nothing in It. I hope the delegates do not for 
 a moment think that I am opposed to churches; such Is not the cr.se. But 
 I say every church which receives a benefit from the community in which it 
 is situated ought to pay for that benefit. We have to protect them, supply 
 them with water, give them fire protection, etc., and why shouldn't they pay 
 for It? What reason Is there that they should not pay for it? Then we take 
 cemeteries. You say, oh. It is a terrible thing to tax a cemetery. Why 
 shouldn't they be taxed? What are they but money making institutions; It 
 is not simply that they want to bury you and me safely, biit they want to 
 make money, and why shouldn't they pay for it? Then, we com(> down to 
 our government buildings. You say, oh well now, you derive a benefit from 
 these buildings being in your midst. I do not know about the benefit, it is 
 just a question in my mind. But. I know this, we have to provide means of 
 protection from fire and give them police protection, and why should not the 
 government pay for it? They are just as much entitled to pay for it as 1 
 am to pay for my property, and I have to pay for it. 
 
 Now, come down to our municipal buildings, our schools and all other 
 buildings In connection with the municipality. Why shouldn't we know 
 exactly what things are costing? It Is only a matter of book-keeping, and 
 If it will help to do away with exemptions it will pay the municipalities to 
 take that matter up. 
 
 I expect I shall have something to say later on, and I now simply move 
 the adoption of this resolution, because I think it is the only safe course to 
 take, and the only way in which we may hope to carry anything safely 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham — What will you do with government salaries? 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — Make them pay on every dollar. 
 
18 
 
 i 
 
 Ex-Akl. Marx, Chatham— It has bei'n a niystny to me, aud 1 cannot 
 find where the salaries of Federal officers are exempted? You cannot show 
 me any section In our municipal stattites which stales Federal officers shall 
 be exempted, but in spite of this they are never assessed. 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— I desire to point out to the delegates that it 
 may not have occurred {o them that the resolution says " all property " shall 
 pay taxes. Even the furniture in the house which is now is exempted shall 
 be taxed; everything that you can think of which is now exempted is to be 
 taxed in the future. I am not going to debate that question, because I have 
 sense enough to believe that no government will enact a law that will tax 
 a man's small income. But, as Alderman Carlyle has sjild, I am one who 
 believes somewhat in the adoption of a principle and let the government 
 weed out what is right? But, the question which should be considered 
 here by the deh'gates this afternoon is, what do we consider is right? Now, 
 I am somewhat of a radical in my idea of Lax exemption, and this is not the 
 first time I have raised my voice on the question, and I believe I expressed 
 myself in the Committee room, and I repeat it again, it may seem some- 
 what ridiculous, but I say that a man who works three hundred and thirteen 
 days in a year, even if he gets $2,000 a year, ought not to pay any taxes; 
 that man is a blessing to this community because he is industrious and 
 works, while the money he earns goes to help to support and maintain the 
 community, because we all know that one-half of the commimity is sup- 
 ported by the other half; and the man who is industrious and pays his taxes 
 supports the police force and the water works and so on, and I am radical 
 enough to believe that the fellow who won't work is the man that should 
 pay the tax. That is nonsense, some people will say, but there is just as 
 much sense in that as there is in most questions with regard to taxation. 
 
 I rose to aay that that resolution says " all," and I do not want any- 
 body to be deceived in the matter. We are to consider the question just as 
 It is printed on the paper. We are to tax wealth in every form, if it is only 
 $100 worth of furniture it is to be assessed for $100 and the owner is to pay 
 taxes on that $100. 
 
 Mayor Skinner, Kingston — It gives me a great deal of pleasue to be here 
 upon this occasion and, with the assistance of Aid. McKelvey, to represent 
 the City of Kingston, in a Convention which should have as important re- 
 sults as I trust and hope the results of the deliberations of this Convention 
 will be. 
 
 This matter has been, in one way and another, before" the Corporation of 
 the City of Kinj^ston for some years. I think on at least two occasions the 
 Corporation haj been asked to pass a resolution in conjunction with other 
 
 V 
 
 i: 
 
19 
 
 I 
 
 I 1 cannot 
 nnot show 
 [leers shaH 
 
 lies that it 
 jrty " shiill 
 npted shall 
 I'd is to be 
 luse I have 
 at will tax 
 m one who 
 government 
 
 considered 
 ight? Now, 
 Is is not the 
 I expressed 
 seem some- 
 and thirteen 
 I any taxes; 
 istrious and 
 naintain the 
 nity is sup- 
 Lys his taxes 
 [ am radical 
 
 that should 
 ■e is just as 
 
 taxation. 
 
 want any- 
 stion just as 
 if it is only 
 lor is to pay 
 
 le to bo here 
 
 to represent 
 
 mportant re- 
 
 s Convention 
 
 orporation of 
 ccasions the 
 ■n with other 
 
 municipalities whereby nil church property, to begin with, should be taxed, 
 aa well as other property, and that exemption from that should be removed. 
 I objected to that then, and I object to it now. At the present time the only 
 exemption in church property is of the actual churches themselves, and the 
 ground upon which they actually stand, and 1 think that no more stringent 
 regulathms should be made regarding churches than that. 
 
 The gentleman who has just spoken has remarked that he was a radlciil 
 somewhat in his views regarding these questions. In my opinion the whole 
 of the Committee on Resolutions who are in favor of this resolution are ex- 
 tremely radical also, far more radical than the members of this Convention 
 from Kingston, and far more radical than the corporation and citizens of 
 Kingston. I think the resolution In some respects Is very good, and the 
 report is very good. But T think the gentleman who moved the adoption of 
 the resolution was somewhat inconsistent in saying we should lay down a 
 principle jind then let the Parliament make what alterations it saw fit. My 
 opinion has been th.it this Convention was called for the purpose of arriving 
 at what the united opinions of the different municipalities In this Province 
 were regarding this subject. I think it would be very much better for us, 
 and the result would be far more direct if we went to the Parliament and, 
 ■Instead of laying down a principle, simply told the government precisely 
 what we wanted. Do not go saying, gentlemen, we want this as a principle 
 and you can alter it as you see fit and as you think is best for us. 
 It seems to me it is inconsistent to put the thing in that way. This Con- 
 vention is called for the very purpose of telling Parliament what we un- 
 itedly think. And in order th;it there should be any beneficial results from 
 the deliberations of this Convention. I tliink it will be quite necess;'ry for 
 us to say exactly what we want, and that will be very much better than 
 laying down a principle. As far as the different items, such as cemeteries, 
 government buildings and so on, which would be affected at the present 
 time are concerned, I have not so much objection to any as to that regard- 
 ing church property, I think the law upon that subject should not bo 
 changed at this time, and I am therefore obliged to vote against this res(»lu- 
 tion. I am very sorry that this Committee on Resolutions did not take 
 some such steps as would actually be more on the give and take, instead 
 of bringing in a radical resolution; but as It is worded it simply means 
 8Uch a radical measure that only very radical persons can support it. - 
 
 Aid. Keating, St. Catharines — Mr. Chairman, the resolution of Aid. 
 Cnrlyle appears to me to be altogether too sweeping. I agree with my 
 friend, Mayor Skinner, with regard to what he h^s said as to exemption of 
 church property. But, there are other properties which, to my mind, it is 
 equally obectionable to tax. The public institutions of the country are not 
 
20 
 
 equiilly distributed; some towns have a good miiny vjiluable institutions, 
 8<»mo that bring ii good deal of tr.ide to the place, and other places havt» 
 very few or none <if thes«' institutions. It is not necessary lo mention any, 
 but in a city that has a large number of those Government Institut'tons It 
 it is not fair to ask the Government for the privilege of taxing them. They 
 cerfainfy are worth all they cost them, and th<'re are a large number of 
 municipalities throughout the Province that would be glad to pay a bonus 
 to have those institutions without the privilege of taxing them. I do not 
 think it is right, therefore, to ask for the privilege of taxing Government 
 properties when there are pletiry ^of places which TTTmld be glad to get these' 
 public institutions witTiout thihlting of taxing them. 
 
 Then, with regard to cemeteries, I think it would be very foolish to tax 
 them; If we tax them, we might as well tax every monument in them. How 
 would it affect »tur own Municipality of St. Catharines? Our cemetery la cut- 
 side of the corporation, and the township would have the privilege of taxing 
 not only the cemetery, but every monument in that cemecery. 
 
 There are. other matters in this resolution which I think render it 
 altogether too sweeping, and I shall be obliged to vote against it. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham — The Municipality 1 have the honor to represent 
 is the City of Chatham. As early as 1892 the Board of Trade and the Council of 
 Chatham considered the subject of abolishing exemptions, particularly exemp- 
 tions which, in Chatham, are more or less prevalent, exemptions on church 
 property, and I must vote for ;ibolishing such exemptions. I am fcomewha*; 
 (Surprised that one of the speakers here — I do not know the gentleman's 
 name — said we should leave the section with regard to the exemptitm of 
 churches in the statute book. Why the very Government has changed it. 
 In 1890, in Chapter 55 of the Statutes of Ontario, on page 132, you will find 
 the following: " Land on which a place of worship is erected, and land 
 used in connection with a place of worship, shall be liable to be assessed in 
 the same way and to the same extent as other land, for local improvements 
 hereafter made or to be made." 
 
 Why shouldn't we have the right now to ask the Government to go 
 a step farther? If the Government saw fit to pass a statute to tax land 
 connected with a church, for local improvemento, why colildn't they go one 
 step further? The Municipality I have the honor to represent has ten per 
 cent, of properties exempted. Our taxes have increased within twenty years 
 110 per cent., our population has increased about 20 or 22 per cent. Twenty 
 years ago »>verybody had his own lantern when he went about; now, we pay 
 about $5,000 a year for lighting the streets. Twenty years ago our Are de- 
 
 all 
 res 
 pre 
 
21 
 
 Litutlons. 
 
 ct's have 
 
 t:on any, 
 
 utions It 
 
 iTi. They 
 
 umber of 
 
 M bonus 
 
 I do not 
 
 )vernmt'nt 
 
 gi't those' 
 
 ish to tax 
 em. How 
 ery la cut- 
 ! of taxing 
 
 render it 
 t. 
 
 J represent 
 
 Council of 
 
 rly exemp- 
 
 on church 
 
 fcomewha": 
 
 rentleman's 
 
 emption of 
 
 chiinged it. 
 
 >u will find 
 
 , and land 
 
 assessed in 
 
 provements 
 
 nent to go 
 o tax li'nd 
 hey go one 
 las ten per 
 I'^enty years 
 It. Twenty 
 3W, we pay 
 3ur Are de- 
 
 purtmini cost us about a thousand dollars; now, it costs us $12,000. Do 
 not those churches and (he property in connection with them enjoy all 
 these privileges? Would they receive their fire insuranc*' at the rate they 
 do were it not for the improvements we have made? 1 claim we must avoid 
 deficits, and. in order to avoid this, we must increase our basis of assess- 
 ment; if we assess the 1350.000 more, which I claim is exempted now, we 
 correspondingly reduce our tax rate. Some people are a little delicate on 
 the question b«'cause it is a church. Some churches are paying their taxes 
 in spite of their immunity. 
 
 I might also state that in the City of Chatham, when a resolution 
 I was lirought in before th«' Board of Trade, there was one gentleman who 
 represonted an industrial institution which had been exempted' irom taxa- 
 tion for ten years, and the moment hf heard the argument that it was an 
 injustice to his neighbors, that his neighbors paid his taxes, he faui, no, I 
 do not want to be free from taxation. This is what 1 call liberality: this 
 is what I call justice. I do not wish to dwell any longer on the subject just 
 now; I may have something to say on the subject later on. 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville— On behalf ol the City of Belleville I would 
 like to say a few words. When I came into this Convention and saw these 
 gentlemen assembled hen', I came to the conclusion they were a very prac- 
 tical business-like set of men; but I would come to the conclusion, if we 
 passed an omnibus resolution such as this before us, that we would not be 
 practical mm: and if we approached the Ontario Government, or the Do- 
 minion Government, with a resolution so indefinite .-s that which is l)efore 
 the house now. aie Govprnmeiit would simply bow us out politely and say 
 we had brought nothing practical before them. 
 
 To ask the Dominion Governmf^nt or the Ontario Government to per- 
 mit laws to be passed to enable municipalities to tiix municipal buildings 
 and Government buildings will simply be asking for a thing that you will 
 never get. I can see that If the City of Toronto should get power to tax 
 the Government buildings up in Queen's Park, that every municipality in 
 the Province of Ontario would have to contribute a certain amount to the 
 coffers of the City of Toronto, and I entirely object to the outside munici- 
 palities being called upon to contribute anything to the City of Toronto 
 beyond what Is at present contributed. You have the great advantage of 
 having these buildings in this City, which brings people to do business from 
 all parts of the Province. I think that the advantage yor enjoy in that 
 r.'spect and to that extent, should make you quite willing to give police 
 protection and lighting, and every other advantage that you can as a 
 
22 
 
 s 
 
 1 
 
 § 
 
 municipality give to those Government buildings. The same would be true 
 in Ottawa, as the same condition of affairs exists there. 
 
 The City of Belleville is the County Town of the County of Hastings, 
 and we deem it a very great advantage to possess the municipal buildings 
 in our municipality; they bring whole section^s .f the County of Hastings, 
 which you know is a very large one. and people from all over the County 
 to do business in the City of Belleville, and we are very glad, indeed, to 
 contribute our share to the protection of and the various ways in which we 
 give advantage to those municipal buildings without asking permission to 
 tax them. 
 
 The amount of county buildings that are exempted in the City of Belle- 
 ville amount to only $75,000. and I consider we have an equal advantage to 
 that of taxation in having those municipal buildings there. It seems to me, 
 instead of bringing in a n>solution such as that which is before the house, 
 if we went through this official document which gives in detail the particu- 
 lar items that are exempted from taxation, and which is before every mem- 
 ber of the Convention, and came to a conclusion upon each one of them, some 
 to be retained, according to the vote of the Convention, and some to be ex- 
 empted, if we can bring exemption about, then we would be getting down 
 to practical business; but to take a resolution such as that would simply 
 indicate that this Convention has been called together and has not arrived 
 at any practical benefit. I can take the details given here and go over them, 
 and point out wherein I would not continue these exemptions, and point out 
 others whertin I would deem it wise to continue, and it seems to me I could 
 only give an intelligent vote, not in the form of an omnibus resolution, but 
 in pointing out where the particular grievance is. There must be grievances 
 here, and I believe there are grievances; and our business as a Convention 
 is to suggest the remedies for these. That is what I would like to see this 
 Convention take action upon, and not upon a resolution which is so indefi- 
 nite as that which is before the house. 
 
 Mayor Smyth. Lindsay — It was not understood when these resolutions 
 were referred to the Committee on Resolutions that they were to recom- 
 mend either for or against; but the question v,, were to consider was whe- 
 ther these were proper questions to bring before the Convention; also to 
 see whether a))y one resolution conflicted with any other resolution, and 
 if there were two of th(> same kind to throw one of them out, and refer to it 
 as being covered by the other. That is the reason we reported In the way in 
 which we did, and 1 think it was the dtity of the Committee so to do; and I 
 do not think it is worth while taking up the time in discussing the general 
 question. I would like to get an expression of opinion on th ■ nr four 
 
 \ * 
 
i be true 
 
 Hastings, 
 buildings 
 Hastings, 
 County 
 ndeed, to 
 which we 
 aission to 
 
 7 of Belle- 
 mntago tu 
 >ms to me, 
 the house, 
 tie particu- 
 very mem- 
 hem, some 
 e to be ex- 
 iting down 
 luld simply 
 not arrived 
 over them, 
 d point out 
 me I could 
 olution, but 
 grievances 
 Convention 
 to see this 
 s so indefl- 
 
 resoUitions 
 
 to recom- 
 r was whe- 
 ion; also to 
 Dlution. and 
 (1 ri'fer to it 
 
 the way in 
 to do; and I 
 
 th«' general 
 -■- or four 
 
 items; but if Ihey ar«' going to be tal<en up seriatim ;is they are on the 
 printed list I will wait until they oome up. 
 
 Aid. McKelvey, Kingston — Alderman Carlyle has said, let us ask 
 plenty from the Government, and then let them give us what 
 they like. I think, gentlemen, we are just as well qualified to 
 decide what is for the l)enefit of this Province as the Government of 
 Ontario, or any other Government is. Those are my sentiments with 
 reference to that, and I supposed when we came here to-day that we were 
 going to taki' up this sheet showing the exemptions and discuss them, and 
 tell the Government the ones W(> thought ought to be struck out, and tell 
 them the property we think should not be exempted, and the property we 
 think ought to be t'xempted. If that resolution of Aid. Carlyle's is passed 
 or adopted by this Convention, it means that a man who earns $100 a 
 year shall pay an income tax. and the man that earns $1,000 or $10,000 
 •x year shall pay an income tax. What is the idea of the income tax? Was 
 is not to get at the income of the man who earns $10,000. It was never 
 intended for the man who earns simply enough to keep body and soul to- 
 gether. If that n'solution is passed, you ask the Government to put an 
 income tax upon every man who earns his dollar, whether his ssilary be little 
 or much, whether it is enough to keep his family or not. Surely that is 
 not the intention; surely this Convention does not want to ask the Govern- 
 ment of Ontario to enact such a law as that; and if we do not want that, 
 if that is not our belief, why pass this resolution; why go to the Govern- 
 ment with such a sweeping resolution as that, and ask them to abolish all 
 exemptions? We all know it is impracticable to do it; it is impracticable 
 to abolish exemptions; and it is asking the Government to do a thing we 
 know they will not do. Would it not he far better, as we are assembled 
 here together now, to put our energies forth and try to assist the Govern- 
 ment to do away with exemptions that we consider imjust and unfair ? 
 There is one exemption here — I do not know whether the gentlemen upon 
 this floor have noticed it or not — if an orphan asylum or an orphan's home 
 owns a property, and it is used for mercantile or manufacturing purposes, 
 and Is not used by them, that property is not taxed; the municipality can 
 collect no taxes from the property, although it is used for mechanical or 
 mercantile purposes. That never was intended; I do not think th«' Govern- 
 ment ever intended that should be the case. That is one thing that I think 
 might be remedied; and there are many others; but I don't think it is right, 
 Tind I don't think it would look well to the people of this Province if we 
 liere, the representatives of the different municipalities, should say to the 
 Government, we want you with one clean sweep to wipe out exemptions. 
 
:■ i 
 
 '! j 
 
 • !: 
 ■' ( 
 
 ■i! 
 
 ; I 
 
 24 
 
 Mayor Radford. G:ill- As the representative from the Municipality o 
 the Town of Gait, 1 certainly say I cannot support the resolution. Th. 
 resolution is too sweeping, and I verily believe and agree with what lh^ 
 Mayor of Helleville has said, that we would be unwise in presenting su< h 
 resolution as that to any G(.vernment, because they would not entertain 
 at all. I certainly believe there ought to be some exemptions; I believe tli 
 properties owned either by the Dominion or the Ontario Governmeni 
 should not be taxed. I certainly think, as the Mayor of Helleville has sail 
 that neither Toronto nor Ottawa should receive taxes from the whole Pn 
 vince of Ontario for what is their personal gain. I also think that m 
 County buildings should be exempt. The C«mnty buildings are not in tl: 
 Town of Gait in our County, they are held by Berlin. If we pay about on 
 eighth of the whole revenue to support those County buildings— our sh:i! 
 is one-eighth— I do not think that the 'i'own of Berlin should have the rigl 
 of taxing those buildings, and asking me Municipality of the Town of Gn 
 to contribute towards the tax. I think if Aid. Carlyle could amend li 
 resolution in such a way that it would not be so drastic, it would nK 
 with the approval o*. the gentlemen here; I think the majority are in fav 
 of certain restrictions. I believe there are ifar too many exemptions. I a 
 perfectly willing to see churches assessed. I go to church occasionally, ai 
 I am quite willing to pay my share towards the taxes of the church, 
 think there is no necessity for exempting churches at all. But, I veri 
 believe, we ought to go into this matter in a business-like way. A b; 
 resolution, such as we have before us, would not meet with the approval 
 am sure, of the delegates here, and. as has already been suggested, if wen 
 to take up these suggestions seriatim, I think this Convention could repi 
 whether we are in favor ot certain exemptions, and then, if we present a re; 
 lution to the Government from a large body of representatives such as 
 have here. I believe we would accomplish something. But I do not belli 
 we will accomplish anything whatever with the resolution we have before 
 
 Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls — I have been pleased with the remark;^ 
 the different gentlemen who have spoken. It appears to me we ought 
 has everything very definite when we are petitioning the Government 
 give us certain things. There is no use taking a request to them that co\ 
 everything, and that has nothing definite in it to fall back upon; it sini 
 puts it into a political stripe, and they hold it in that way and give us 
 thing. T am strongly in favor of a certain amount of exemptions. I 
 not in favor of church exemptions; I believe they ought to set us a pati 
 and bo willing to pay for the benefitH they derive from the niunici| 
 ties in the way of lighting, streets, sidewalks and bo on. 
 
25 
 
 Municipality «■ 
 resolution. Tin 
 ! with what tb' 
 resenting su' h 
 
 not entertain i 
 ns; I believe tli 
 ■io Governmeni 
 iUoville has sm'u 
 1 the whole Pn 
 > think that ou 
 ;s an' not in tl' 
 e pay about on 
 Idings— our shiu 
 lid have the rigl 
 the Town of Ga 
 could i'.mend li 
 ic. it would m( 
 ority aiv in fav 
 Bxemptions. I a 
 
 occasionally, tii 
 of the church, 
 ill. But, I veri 
 like way. A b; 
 th tho approval 
 uggested, if we a 
 >ntion could repi 
 f we present a reg 
 tatives such as 
 It I do not belle| 
 
 we have before i 
 
 Ith the remarks 
 o me we ought 
 the Government 
 to them that cov 
 ick upon; It sin. 
 ,ay and give us 
 exemptions. 1 
 to set us a pati 
 •din the niuni*.i| 
 n. 
 
 In regard to the Government buildings, I cannot see that it would be 
 right or just lor us lo assess them, and other municipalities ihrougluiut the 
 Province help to pay lor the benefits that those cities that have the G«tv- 
 ernment buildings in derive from them. In regard to the municipal build- 
 ings. I do not see that it would be of any benefit to a municipality to assess 
 those buildings, taking it out of one pocket and putting it into the other, 
 and in that way only complicating matters for the municipality. 
 
 In regard to the income tax, I think with one of the other gentlemen 
 who has spoken, that the law never intended that the man earning from 
 one to two or three or four hundred dollars a year should pay taxes; I 
 think that income tax was put there tor the purpose of reaching men earn- 
 ing large salaries, and who had nothing invested in the municipality. A 
 great number of those men have a house or houses; they live up to the 
 amount they receive, and they are of very little benefit to the municipality, 
 as far as municipal benefit is concerned; but they draw their salaries. 
 
 I refer especially to Government officials; they are not even liable to 
 the law of our country for paying their just debts. '1 heir salaries are ex- 
 empt and they are not taxed for it, and the consequence is the municipali- 
 ties get nothing out of them. 
 
 To my mind, if we take up this resolution clause by clause and give 
 our opinion upon each clause as it comes up, we will act more intelligently 
 and come to a better conclusion, and we would ask the Goveinm«'nt to do 
 precisely what we ask them and not give it into their hands. I think if it 
 is taken up in that way it will be of much more benefit. 
 
 Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound— From the remarks I have heard made 
 by the different speakers concerning the resolution introduced by Aid. Car- 
 lyle, I must say that they will find it very difficult to arrive at any deci- 
 sion In the manner they propose going about it. I have heard two or three of 
 the gentlemen here talk about business, and the business way of going 
 about things at different times since this Convention started, and I must 
 say that the most unbusiness-like method of dealing with this matter is 
 the manner in which they propose dealing with it. It is either a principle, 
 or it is not a principle; if exemption is right in one case, it is right in an- 
 other. I see our friend, Mj.yor Skinner, of Kingston, is opposed to taxing 
 churches; I would imagin,> Irom that that he is a good churchman, and 
 probably attends very regularly, but this must be a sinner who comes fro-n 
 Chatham, because he is in favor of taxing the churches. If you allow these 
 Ideas to prevail, we will arrive at nothing. I think Alderman Carlyle's re- 
 solution is to the point, and strikes the matter at the fountain head. My 
 
 i 
 
i \ 
 
 I I 
 
 Iriend herl^ who wns chairman of that Committee, says he is in favor of 
 taxing a man with two or three hundred dollars' worth of propt'riy, al- 
 though he is not in lavor of taxing a man's salary, evvn if it is $4,000. 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— 1 said 1 wasn't in favor of an income tax 
 in any manner or form. 
 
 Mayor ihompson, Owen Sound— I did not so understand it. 1 think wo 
 should deal with this as a principle and then attorwards, as Aid. Carly.o 
 has stated, when you go the Government, recommending this as a principlo, 
 you can be sure the Government will look after themselves so lar as thcr 
 properties are concerned, and they will look after their interests. But, 
 for this Convention to throw aside the great principle that has been intro- 
 duced by Aid. Carlyle and discussed, and allow each one to air his own pet 
 scheme at this C(mvention, would be a great mistake. I would like to see 
 the principle adopted, and then afterwards you can discuss these quesfions, 
 and then we will find to what extent the representatives present are in favor 
 of taxing all properties that are exempt. 
 
 Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton — I would like it to be thoroughly understood 
 that the representatives from the City oi Hamilton are somewhat handi- 
 capped here; there was a resolution passed by our Council to have it sub- 
 mitted, and to th.at we are pledged, and to nothing further than that are 
 we pledged, but we can give our individual views. 
 
 I think in regiird to Aid. Carlyle's motion, that it is very far reaching, 
 in my mind .altogether too tar reaching; I do not know where it will end, 
 in fact. As I understand it, the reason we are called together on this occa- 
 sion is to discuss the question and consider whether it is advisable to take 
 away, or ask the Government to take away from the municipalities the 
 privilege which they now enjoy of exempting manufactories and things of 
 that kind. Of course, there are Government exemptions which we have no 
 power over, but about which the people, I think, ought to have something 
 to say. 
 
 Some of us differ ns to whether the municipalities should be deprived 
 of the right which I have spoken of. I feel a great deal of difndence in 
 regard to the matter. I do not care to ask, or to be one of the party to ask 
 the Government to withdraw powers which, in my humble judgment, belong 
 to the people. Some six or seven centuries ago our forefathers struggled 
 hard to get this very question placed in their own hands, and compelled 
 the signing of that Magna Charta, and we are now asking the Government 
 to withdraw that very privilege which our forefathers fought so hard to 
 maintain. I think it Is rather unwise for us to take a step of that kind. 
 
 m 
 
%1 
 
 in favor of 
 roperiy, al- 
 
 s $4,000. 
 
 income tax 
 
 I think wo 
 A.UI. Carly^e 
 
 a principlo, 
 
 lar as thi'ir 
 3rests. But, 
 \ been intro- 
 
 his own pet 
 i like to sei> 
 se quesfions, 
 
 are in favor 
 
 y understood 
 
 ;what handi- 
 
 have it sub- 
 
 han that are 
 
 far reaching, 
 e it will end, 
 on this occa- 
 i sable to take 
 icipalitles the 
 and things of 
 h we have no 
 ive something 
 
 Id be deprived 
 if diffidence in 
 tie party to ask 
 igment, belong 
 hers struggled 
 and compelled 
 [le Government 
 ;ht so hard to 
 p of that kind. 
 
 I I think the Government have exceedingly large powers already, and I think 
 * the people ought to hold all the power they have, although at the same time 
 I realize this, that there is a very great abuse at the present time of this 
 municipal exemption from taxation of various industries to the upbuilding of 
 '^ one and to the tea ring down of another municipality. That is not right. But 
 the question is whether we shall ask the Government to withdraw this privi- 
 lege from our hands. I think it would be unwise in one respect to do so. I 
 think if we could get legislation in some way by which this matter could 
 be submitted to the people it would be well; and I think some way could 
 be devised whereby this question could be submitted to the people as to 
 ■whether vve should have total exemption or not. 
 
 ' Now, with regard to church exemption, which has been spoken of here 
 
 very strongly this afternoon, I was rather in favor of exempting church 
 property, and the land which it immediately stands on, but my views have 
 undergone a change with regard to that matter, and I now fail to see why 
 churches should not pay their fair share of taxation as well as any other 
 corporation. I fail to see, sir, why the members ol any particular church 
 should object to paying their just quota of that taxation. I will guarantee 
 in almost any community that perhaps the majority of that community do 
 not belong or attend any of those churches, and I fail to see the justice of 
 compelling that major portion of the community to pay the taxes of that 
 church or of all churches, or assist in it. You might just as well say that 
 churches should contribute to the taxes of cricket grounds, baseball grounds 
 or anything of that kind. There is a certain portion of the community that 
 believe these things are absolutely necessary for recreative purposes, but, 
 nevertheless, they are taxed right up to the handle, generally, and I fail 
 to see why churches should not be taxed also. I think, Mr. Chairman, if it 
 is possible that a resolution should be put in defining a little more closely 
 and precisely just what we desire the Government to do, we must not lose 
 sight of this fact, that it is a very large and broad question, and 1 do not 
 think this Convention at this particular time is going to revolutionize the 
 whole question of tax exemption; I think we will have to make a stride 
 or two as well as we can just now, and. in the interim, before another Con- 
 vention is convened, see what we can do towards furthering the question in 
 that direction. 
 
 The Chairman — I hav*» allowed a good deal «f latitude in the discussion, 
 and there has been a considerable departure from the principle of the resolu- 
 tion, but inasmuch as it was a kindred topic, 1 allt»wed the discussion to go on, 
 but think probably it woukl be as well to coiifin<' ourselves to the principle of 
 the resolution, and not discuss the pros and cons la favor or against any 
 
38 
 
 I-' 
 
 particular exemption. That might come up later on, and I would ask the 
 members of the Convention who wish to speak to bear this in mind. , 
 
 J. W. McCulloch, East Toronto— I think that suggestion should be car- 
 ried out, because if this Convention does not make itself heard in that one 
 direction it will tail. The principle has not yet been established that all 
 property should pay taxes, or. in other words, that there should be no 
 exemptions. I think that is a principle that this Convention should lay 
 down, and then work out from that in a direction, as near as we can get 
 it, to what we want. . ^ ; , 
 
 May(»r Johnson, Belleville — T move in amendment to the resolution be- 
 fore the Convention, seconded by Mayor Radford, of Gait, that the list of 
 exemptions now before the Conveiiti(»n be considered clause by clause, and 
 a vote be taken upon each one. I refer to this printed list of exemptions 
 which I presume every gentleman present has a copy of. ■, \ 
 
 Aid. Parnell, Loudon — On behalf of the City of London, I suppose it 
 becomes a duty of mine to say something here to-day as to how the matter 
 is looked upon in that City. One thing I want to say is that it affords me 
 a very great deal of pleasure to be present at this Convention. When we 
 started out we seemed to get into something oi a jumble, but we got clear 
 of that tangle, and we have now got down to what I term solid business 
 argument, and in the discussion of this matter it has indeed been a plea- 
 sure to me to listen to the different arguments advanced. I have learned 
 something since I fiave been here which I think will be of practical benefit 
 to me in my municipal life if I should remain long in it. 
 
 This resolution which is now before the house is certainly a very broad 
 and sweeping resolution, one which, if carried, as one of the speakers has 
 put it, we would hardly know where it would end. But, there is a question 
 to be faced by all municipalities, no matter whether large or small, and 
 that is this, that there are a large number of exemptions now existing in 
 each of those municipalities which become a burden upon the rest of the 
 community, and the question before us here to-day is how can we best get 
 rid of them. It has been said by some one that we oinnot take this thing, 
 deal with it, and revolutionize it in a moment. I am somewhat of that idea 
 myself. Governments move slowly; they only move, at least, as fast as 
 public opinion will warrant. There is a great diversity of opinion as to the 
 exemptions contained in the Statute, as to which of them should be Topped 
 oft and which left on, if any, but of one thing I am convinced, and I believe 
 the majority of this (Vmvention are convinced, that something must be 
 
 to 
 
 ind( 
 
 m<i. 
 
)uld ask the 
 1 mind. 
 
 ould be ear- 
 in that one 
 hod that all 
 hould be no 
 1 should lay 
 i we can get 
 
 esolution be- 
 lt the list of 
 y clause, and 
 if exemptions 
 
 I suppose it 
 iw the matter 
 it affords me 
 n. When we 
 we got clear 
 lolld business 
 been a plea- 
 have learned 
 vctical benefit 
 
 a very broad 
 
 speakers has 
 
 is a question 
 
 )r small, and 
 
 w existing in 
 
 le rest of the 
 
 a we best get 
 
 ke this thing, 
 
 t of that idea 
 
 ;t. as fast as 
 
 lion as to the 
 
 uld be lopped 
 
 and I beli«'ve 
 
 ling must be 
 
 done to get rid of the evil in as large a measure as possible, 
 feature which I think should govern our action here to-day. 
 
 That if= the 
 
 My friend, Aid. Carlyle. here to my left, certainly has got very broad 
 and liberal views in'^regard to this matter, and I don't know, sir, if I were 
 put to the test, and asked the question, and had to answer it, whether I 
 would not have to coincide with him. But I am convinced from the temper 
 of this meeting that the members are not in favor i,l adopting that broad 
 and liberal resolution which he has moved, and which He hinted to me Tie 
 Is not wedded to, but only proposed it for the purpose of bringing the whole 
 matter prominently befort- the Convention. I say again, if we cannot adopt 
 this resolution, and the temper of the meeting seems to be that the mem- 
 bers do not feel disposed to Ireat and deal with this resolution and carry 
 it through, let us take up the amendment that has been proposed here 
 to-day, deal with that list seriatim, and endeavor to get all off that we can at 
 this session, and if we cannot get all that we want, perhaps at a future session 
 we can. One of the points which struck me, and w>ach I might say altered 
 my opinion to some extent, was the fact relative to the Government build- 
 ings. I came here io-day very largely of the mind that we ought to abolish 
 exemptions altogether, but when the point was brought out, and most forci- 
 bly to my mind, that the Larger cities, especially the Cities of Toronto and 
 .Ottawa, were enjoying the benefits conferred by the location of the Govern- 
 ment buildings in them, and the large amount of taxation which would be 
 derived, if assessed on the same lines as the biilance of the property in 
 Toronto and Ottawa would come out of the balance of the Province, it led 
 me to alter my mind somewhat. You must remember this, that a large 
 portion of our communities in this Province is composed of rural sections, 
 and, as such, they would pay the vast proportion of that tax. I do not 
 think we should act in any radical manner dn regard to them, and, as I said 
 before. I W(»nld not be prepared to-day to give s\ vote upon' that question 
 ■When 1 consider that the cities rejip the benefit they do from the location 
 of those buildings in their particular localit'ies. It strikes me very forcibly 
 that London, indeed, would be glad to furnish all the necessary fire protec- 
 tion, lighting pnd so on. 
 
 Mayor .Johnson, Belleville— And give a bonus. (Laughter.) 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London — No, sir. But, T think they would be prepared 
 to give what I have said, and think they were getting off very lightly 
 Indeed if they could only have what the City of Toronto has got to-day. 
 
 Rat, as T said before, the question is, what shall we do about these 
 exemptions? I have here with me a tabulated statement of every exemp- 
 tion we have in the City of London; and it runs as follows: 
 
30 
 
 ill! 
 
 Churches and lands |524,000 
 
 Public schools 252,000 
 
 Hospitals and public charities 130,600 
 
 Academies and universities 165,000 
 
 * City property ! 406,700 
 
 City and county jail 100,000 
 
 Exemptions under by-law given to manufacturers. Gentlemen, to ni 
 that is the vital point here to-day. Why should manufacturers go peddliii 
 their industries from one end of this Province to the other, asking hov 
 much will you give us and we will come and locate, setting one munici 
 pality against the other, and then takdng the very best offer they can get 
 Let each municipality be placed in the same category, that is, tha 
 there be no exemptions in that line at all, and then they will locate whti 
 it is in their interests to do so. ., / 
 
 Dominion Government land and buildings |419,000 
 
 Domin«Ion Government officials' salaries over the 
 
 $700, which is exempt 26,715 
 
 There was a remark passed here to-day which also struck me mos 
 forcibly, and that is, why should men whoso salaries we contribute to fror 
 all over the Dominion, and who very often get their salaries a good dca 
 easier than many of us, who have to toil for what we get, be exempt ii 
 any shape or form any more than other people ? (Applause.) Wli 
 should they be allowed to go free and have their salaries exempted fror 
 civil suit? I have sold articles to these men. and then I have been prevent? 
 from getting paid for them in a Court of law, and they have laughed me t 
 scorn. These are questions which should be considered. As I said, if w 
 cannot deal with them all at once, we can deal with them piecemeal. 
 
 From a small book conta'ining data, which I found in one of the dc^k 
 here, I notice that in the City of Toronto the property exempt is $23,313,57^ 
 In the City of London it is $348,615. If you figure them out, you will fin 
 the total assessment in the City of Toronto — I sve it here — is $140,995,98 
 in the City of London the total is about $15,500,000; that is pretty near! 
 one-sixth of the whole rateable property exempt from taxation. It is ,1 
 appallinp: state of affairs, and one which, as I said before, leaves a voi 
 great burden to be borne by the balance of the community who are ik 
 exemBt. 
 
 As I said previously, I do not think the temper of the meetiing is i 
 favor of taking this resolution of Aid. Carlyle's, and I think it would I 
 unwise to do so, b« cause I doubt if the Government would treat it in tli 
 
 I ^ 
 
 man 
 the 
 With 
 the 
 
 \. ] 
 Lon( 
 havi 
 far i 
 rlghi 
 is ai 
 
 in t 
 
 Who 
 
 But 
 
 men 
 
 in o 
 
 cert£ 
 
 insti 
 
 '|- 
 prac 
 
 of 
 
 pedc 
 then 
 cate 
 that 
 loca 
 wer( 
 I so 
 for 
 
 bull 
 
 Fieal 
 the 
 
 to 
 
 not 
 
 do 
 
31 
 
 ..1524,000 
 . . 252,000 
 .. 130,600 
 .. 165.000 
 , .. 406,700 
 .. 100,000 
 
 Tentlemen. to ni 
 urers go peddliii 
 ther, asking hov 
 
 manner in which we desire they should; but I think we hud better take up 
 the amendment, and deal with such exemptions in the list as we can deal 
 with to-day, and then, if it is decided to hold an annual meeting, deal with 
 the balance at a future date. 
 
 Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound— I would like to ask Aid. Parnell, of 
 London, one question. He claims that the City of Toronto is benefited by 
 having the Parliament Buildings here, and he is in favor of exemption, no 
 far as they are concerned, because ot that benefit. Why did they refuse the 
 right to any other City to exempt manufacturing and other institutions, if it 
 is an advantage to the City? 
 
 .$419,000 
 
 tie 
 
 26,715 
 
 tting one munici 
 
 ffer they can get There is a principle involved in it; if it is right in one case, it is right 
 ■y, that is, tha j^^ ^^^^ other. He will say, possibly, that it is the people of the Province 
 will locate whor ^^^ would have to pay the taxes so far as these buildings are concerned. 
 • But I d(m't think that is an argument; I do not think it is a good argu- 
 
 ment. It is rather a principle, which is right or wrong, and, it it is right 
 in one case to give exemptions because it is an advantage to a city, it is 
 certainly right in another town to give exemption to 'any industry or any 
 Institution that is of advantage to that municipality. 
 
 struck me mos ; 
 ontribute to froi ■^^^- P<irnell, London — With regard to public buildings, they are of 
 'tries a eood dca Pl^sctical benefit to the community in which they are located. In the matter 
 >-et be exemot ii °^ exemptions to manufacturers, as I have already stated, manufacturers 
 Annlause ) Wii P®^^^6 it around, get all they can out of the municipalities and then throw 
 ^s exempted fror ^^^^ *° ^^^ wind at the finish; whereas public buildings remain where lo- 
 ve been oreventp ^^t®*^' ^® ^ ^"^^' *^^ "11 *1°^^ ^^ come. Another speaker has remarked, 
 liuehed me t ^^^^ these public buildings draw to those particular places where they are 
 
 As I sTid if V ^o^^ted a very large amount of trade, making them the centre or hub as i; 
 
 5 „ ^.^..l were of the Province, and as such, they derive a very Large benefit, and. as 
 
 piecemeal. 
 
 I see it just now, the balance of the Province should not be obliged to pay 
 one of the de::^l< ier it. " ■ - .. . • "' 
 
 mpt is $23,313,57^ 
 out, you will fin 
 i-e— is $140,995,98: 
 t is pretty nearl 
 
 Mayor Thompson. Owen Sound — You are in favor of exempting all public 
 buildings. 
 
 The Chairman — We are departing very far from the resolution. 
 Mease do not discuss the details of exemptions; they are not involved in 
 >re, leaves a ver ^ resolution, 
 nity who are iic 
 
 Aid. Duncan, Brantford — We might be here until doomsday, and try 
 
 t^ improve and try to pick out what should be and what should 
 
 the meeting is i ^^^ ^^ exempted, and we would not be any farther ahead. I 
 
 think it would 
 
 lid treat it in tb 
 
 tf| not see any other way for it but to come right down and 
 
82 
 
 exempt nothing and tax everything. I think I should l)e endorse 
 In that hy the Municipality of Brantford. 'I'here are some that wouhl tax 
 ehurciiC's and some would not. How are you going to decide that. We hu\v 
 a JyOcal Legislature here, and we have men coming here from year to ye{;r 
 and they arc all trying to improve municipal taxation, and 1 do not tv 
 that they are making much improvement; and it would be just the sani 
 thing if we go to the Government and say why we want this aiid that dtuie 
 it would just be lost. If we say, we want all exemptions done away with, w.' 
 want no property exempt from taxation, we hav»' then a principle w«' can 
 act upon. I noticed years ago there were large delegations who came to: 
 the Government when it was proposed to tax the churches. That is a mere 
 matter of sentiment; it is not a matter of business, because the churches 
 can pay taxes as well as any other property. 
 
 Our friend from London says he would not tax properties that were of 
 bt'ueflt to the municipality. Why, the factories are of more benefit than 
 any publ'c or municipal buildings, and he would not tax Ihem. But our 
 friend from London is very strong against i-xemptions. 1 do not see how 
 we can do anything else but vote for the resolution. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, those are my feelings in regard to the matter, and I shall 
 certainly have to vote against the amendment and vote for Aid. Carlyle's 
 resolution. 
 
 The Chairman— I was going to point out to the Convention the effect 
 of this. If this amendment be passed in its present shape, it will simp y 
 set aside all the other resolutions which have been recommended for con- 
 sideration by the Committee on Resolutions, and it will then be my duty 
 as Chairman to ask you to consider, not the other resolutions which have 
 come from the Committee, but this detailed list of exemptions. Is it The 
 wish of the Convention that we should proceed in that way? 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville— My amendment is not an amendment to 
 the whole series of resolutions; it is simply an amendment to the clause 
 that is now before the house. „ ; 
 
 The Chairman— If I am asked to rule on this question, I would rule 
 that this is not an amendment. 
 
 Mayor Radford, Gait— Might it not be madt an amendment by makirg 
 it read in this way, that wliereas this Convention endorses the principles 
 laid down in the resolution now before it, but considers the resolution too 
 drastic, be it therefoie resolved that we take up the list of exemptions 
 seriatim. 
 
 f n 
 
 d 
 o 
 t( 
 
 J' 
 fl 
 n 
 t( 
 e 
 v 
 
33 
 
 i be endorscii 
 
 hilt would tax 
 
 thiit. Wi' hii\c 
 
 111 year to yeiu 
 
 1 1 do not tr 
 
 just the Bam 
 
 and that done 
 
 away with. w. 
 
 riiioiple wf (ai 
 
 s who cjime li 
 
 'I'hiit is a men' 
 
 je the churches 
 
 es that wore of 
 re benefit thanj 
 Ihem. But our 
 do not see how 
 
 tter, and I shall .| 
 r Aid. Carlyle'sJ 
 
 ntion the effect I 
 . it will simp y J 
 lended for con- 
 en be my duty | 
 CDS which have 
 ions. Is it the 
 
 amendment to 
 t to the c'auie 
 
 1, I would rule 
 
 lent by makirg 
 3 the principles 
 resolution too 
 of exemptions 
 
 Mayor .Fohnsnu, I3ollevillt'— I am quiti- willing that shonhl bo added to 
 tho amendment. . ., . '; 
 
 Mayor Smyth, Lindsay— If we vote that resolution of .Aid. Carlyiea 
 down it signifies that wo are not in lav^r of the genoral principle of non- 
 exoniption of taxation. I would niovo, seconded by Ex-Ald. Marx, of Cfial- 
 ham, that wo disapprove of the general principle of exemption from taxn- 
 lion as it is now embodied in the law of the land. 
 
 The Chairman — There is no desire on my pait to vote it down. ■ 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — Theie is no desire on my p.irt to vote it 
 down; but if Aid. Carlyle's resolution is withdrawn or voted down, every 
 individual member hero has an opinion and he can put in a resolution, and 
 the Committi-e on Resolutions will have to make a report upon it. t 
 
 The Chairman- It has been moved by Mayor Smyth, Lindsay, s-econded 
 by Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham, that this Convention disapprove i»f the general 
 principle of exemption from taxation. , - 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belloville— I do not see wherein that is an amend- 
 ment; it is simply repeating in other words w.i{it is already before the Con- 
 vention in the resolution by Aid. CarlyUr, it is a mere play upon words. 
 You have two direct issues with the main motion and my amendment. 
 
 The Chairman— I do not wish to be understood as having any undue 
 
 desire to withhold Mayor .lohnson's amendment, but I simply state if my 
 
 ruling as Chtiirman of this Convention is asked lor as to whether this is 
 
 Lan amendment to Aid. Carlyle's resolution, I would say it is not; but if the 
 
 Convention wishes to deal with it upon other lines — 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto— I must insist upon your ruling. I think if we 
 have doubt about the matter being in order we should have your ruling. 
 
 The Chairman— I would rule that -it is out of order. Personally, I 
 would very much rather you would approach the question (luickly and 
 decide it without raising points of order; I think points of ordor are very 
 often technically right, but wrong as a matter of policy; and while this is 
 t^K-hnically out of order as an amendment I do think it would be 
 just as well if the Convention dealt with it at once in the con- 
 firmation of a principle and proceed to the next order of busi- 
 ness, and I think in doing that, although we might not de-ile 
 techmcal poFnts. we would at least have the great advantage of proceeding 
 expeditiously with our businoRS. Why not deal with these questions by a 
 vote of yea or nay. We are not bound by the strict laws of procedure in 
 
M 
 
 any sense, and as we are business men and profess to deal wilh llie.e (hiugs 
 on business prlnclpU's, if It meets with you approval any "yes," and If it 
 does not say " no," and we will get through with our work with ten tinicj 
 the expedition we will If we proceed on technical lines. 
 
 Mayor Radford, Gait— In consideration of that Wf will withdraw the 
 amendment. : 
 
 • 
 
 m 
 
 The Chairman— Let me take the amendment which has been first placed 
 in my hands, and you can deal with it as you please? 
 
 The Secretary — You ruled that out of order. 
 
 The Chairman — I did, and I still think it is out of order. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I want to understand how we stand, exactly. In 
 the first place that could not be in order except as an amendment to my 
 resolution? 
 
 'lit 
 111 
 
 The Chairman — Certainly; that is so. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — Then we must have some rules to guide us in 
 our deliberations. It is all very well to say it is only a technical point, but 
 it is a matter of procedure. 
 
 The Secretary, Aid. Leslie, Toronto — I suppose that my position as 
 Secretary of this Convention will not debar me from expressing my views 
 as one who has been largely instrumental in convening this Convention. I 
 must say that I am not in accord with the sweeping resolution of Alderman 
 Carlyle. I am generally opposed to the principle of exemptions, but there 
 are exemptions to my mind that are perfectly just, perfectly right and per- 
 fectly legal; and I cannot support any resolution moved by any member of 
 this Convention which says that such a thinf? as tax exemption Is neither 
 right nor just. We have an exemption on income to the amount of $700; 
 that exemption on income in a good many cases, to my mind, is perfectly 
 right and just, and perfectly common sense. 
 
 I have in this Council Chamber on more than one occasion endeavored 
 to 'set a slight exemption on the value of cottages; that is, the poor man's 
 house. 
 
 We recognize the fact that there are exemptions of great magnitude, 
 especially in the City cf Toronto. We find that factories and business enter- 
 prises and the very rich people are exempted to very very large amounts, and 
 we recognize the fact that the small owner is not exempted in any way. 
 The man who has simply a little house and a lot valued at a thousand 
 
85 
 
 the.e ihliiRS 
 i," and if il 
 :h ten tiiue-i 
 
 Ithdraw the 
 
 I first placed 
 
 exactly. In 
 Iment to my 
 
 guide us in 
 al point, but 
 
 position as 
 ig my views 
 mvention. I 
 of Alderman 
 IS, but there 
 ght and per- 
 f member of 
 m is neither 
 mnt of $700; 
 , is perfectly 
 
 1 endeavored 
 poor man's 
 
 t magnitude, 
 siness enter- 
 iimounts, and 
 in any way. 
 t a thousand 
 
 dollars Is aBsossed for the thousand dollars, but we find that a person in 
 the City of Toronto with a house and land valued nt $100,000 is only assessed 
 for about $40,000. thus giving exemption on $60,000 to the rich per8<m, while 
 the poor person 'is (axed to the full value. I say there Is a fair question for 
 discussion as to whether a poor man should not get an exemption say to the 
 amount of three or four hundred dollars on his house. If it is right to 
 exempt a man on his salary, it is right to exempt the poor man on his 
 cottage. These are questions that could be discussed if the matter was 
 taVen up clause by clause. I do not th'ii '. ..'d. Carlyle's rosolutioa will 
 carry to-day, because there are exemptions t.:... every one of us feels are 
 right. We have a list of all the exemptions that come under the siatutes, 
 some of them are under Dominion control and some under Provincial con- 
 trol, and some under municipal control; it is a pity our. solicitor Bad not 
 d4vided them into the tnree classes so that we would know to which govern- 
 ment we would have to go for redress. On the other hand, we recognize that 
 there are exemptions that are inexcusable. But this resolution to me seems 
 like going like a bull at a gate, or like a frenzied man at a stone wall; we 
 should go to the top of the wall and take out the easiest stones first; we 
 should not go to the Government and in a wholesale way ask them to take a 
 long list of exemptions and say they must wipe them out. The trouble we 
 found was this, we thought that any resolution coming from the City Council 
 would have very little effect, because it would be only the voice of the 
 Council or of the municipality. But we thought by getting representatives 
 from the municipalities all over the Province of Ontario, especially repre- 
 sentatives from the cities and towns where the exemptions were of necessity 
 larger than in the rural municipalities, that an expression of opinion from 
 these delegates from all over the Province of Ontario of necessity must have 
 far greater weight with the Government than an expression of opinion of 
 the Council of Toronto. ■ 
 
 We have come here from all parts of Ontario with all kinds of ideas, 
 ideas of great divergence upon the different questions, and it appears to me 
 tha( if we simply discuss the bald question of exempting or not exempUug 
 everything we will never accomplish anything, because we are so widely 
 different in our opinions with regard to what should be and what should 
 not be exi-iipted. 1 think the only sensible way to do is to accept the 
 amendment, and take up the list of exemptions clause by clause and give our 
 opinions, without long arguments or long speeches. There are clause's 
 in that list that will not need any discussion at all; I think as soon as they 
 are read the voice of the Convention will be known. It is now twenty 
 minutes past four, and we have practically done nothing yet to-day; we have 
 not got a resolution on our books to take to the Government so far. 
 
36 
 
 I 
 
 One gentleman snys that if we proceed in the way we are doing we will 
 not get half way through our business; I imagine we will have to meet five 
 years from now; we cannot expect to do it all to-day; this is simply the 
 initiation; I hope the Convention will adjourn to meet in some other muni- 
 cipality a year from now. and the fight that is begun to-day by the repre- 
 sentatives from all over Ontario will be doubled, and that we will still keep 
 up the fight until the concensus of opinion of the representatives from all 
 over the Province will be brought to the Government in such a forcible 
 manner that they will be obliged to abolish the exemptions that we think 
 should be abolished. 
 
 The Chairman — I have to declare that any motion which asks us to 
 take up seriatim this list is out of order, for the reason that the Convention 
 has already decided (hat it will take up the report clause by clause, and as 
 long as that resolution stands unrescinded it is the duty of this Convention 
 to proceed according to that resolution, and this amendment would introduce 
 an entirely new procedure. 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville — Is it possible for a member of this Coifven- 
 tion to do as a member of a municipal council would do. appeal from the 
 chair to the house? Because if so, I feel justified in so doing. I think the 
 chairman is an able man and is presiding with dignity, but I think he is 
 entirely mistaken in the view he is now promulgating, and I would ask this 
 Convention to say whether that amendment of mine is in order or not. 
 
 Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound — That is an extraordinary thing to do. 
 Here is a gentleman who has occupied the chair to-day and who has given 
 us a ruling on this matter, and I do not think it would be wise for this Con- 
 vention not to sustain that ruling. 
 
 The Chairman— My ruling has been appealed against, and, adopting the 
 custom usual in municipal councils, 1 think th(> vote ought to be taken. 
 
 The Chairman ^look the vote and declared the ruling of the chair 
 sustained. , „ 
 
 The Chairman— May I ask you now to vote on the amendment that this 
 Convention disapproves, of the general principlt of ex' mption from taxation. 
 I would rule that this amendment is in order. ,. .., .,.,,,.., 
 
 " Aid. Emory, Hamll on— That would be much bett«'r if read, on genera! 
 principles we disjipprove of exempt ions. 
 
 Aid. McKelvoy, Kingston — 1 move in amendment to the ameudmrnl 
 seconded by Aid. Keating, of St. Catherines, that while this Convention is 
 
37 
 
 doing we will 
 e to meet Ave 
 
 is simply the 
 lo other muni- 
 
 by the repre- 
 will still keep 
 itives from all 
 uch a forcible 
 th:it we think 
 
 ch asks us to 
 the Convention 
 clause, and as 
 his Convention 
 /ould introduce 
 
 tf this CoiTven- 
 ppeal from th»:i 
 g. I think the 
 : I think ho io 
 would ask this 
 •der or not. 
 
 ry thing to do. 
 
 who has given 
 
 se for this Con- 
 
 d, adopting the 
 be taken. 
 
 ig of the chair 
 
 dment that this 
 1 from taxation, 
 
 cad, on general 
 
 he ameudmrni 
 8 Convention ip 
 
 of tho opinion that the practice of exemption as now held to be legal is 
 unfair and unjust to the municipalities interested, at the same time we 
 cannot support a measure so sweeping as the resolution df Aid. Carlyle now 
 before the chair. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — That is pure negative, and not an amendment 
 to my resolution. I want your ruling, Mr. Chairman, on the point. 
 
 The Chairman— It affirms a positive principle, that the practice of exemp- 
 tion a? now held to be legal is unfair and unjust to the municipalities in- 
 terested. The resolution may be divided into two parts, a positive and a 
 negative. 
 
 The Chairman put the amendment to the amendment, which on a vote 
 having been taken was declared carried. 
 
 The Secretary read Clause No. 2 of the report as follows: 
 
 Moved by Aid. Carlyle. seconded by P. W. Robinson. Streetsvilla. 
 
 That it be an instruction to the Executive Committee appnimed by this 
 Convention to take such steps as is deemed necessary to have the two 
 following questions submitted to a vote of the persons qualified to vote at 
 mnmcipal elections, at the municipal electi(ms to be held in January next. 
 
 1. Are you in favor of the principle of assessing each individual accord- 
 ing to his or her actual worth in real and personal property? 
 
 2. Are you in favor of the principle of iibolishing all exemptions? . 
 
 And in the event of one or both of these questions being answered in 
 th(> nfflrmative by n majority of the electors in m majority of the munictipali- 
 ties where the questitms have been submitted, then such further steps shall 
 |e taken as the Committee deems necessary to secure legislation on these 
 
 lines. ■■■•"• -. - - ' :- 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto— After the result of the former motion i do not 
 lee why the tim(> of the Convention lould be taken up with this one; T 
 think the better way would be to wituaraw it. I do not see the gi)od of it 
 fven if carried; we have nothing to submit to the people; we have not 
 Idopted the first resolution which was contemplated in that. 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London — I would tiuggest to Aid. Carlyle that this resoln- 
 l^on take precedence of the order of business for tMs afternoon: we would 
 ■Re in w better position then \' «wiy whether it would be worth while 
 IHSsing it. J 
 
m 
 
 Mr. Quiulnn, Port Hope — I do not think that should be done. 
 
 Miiyoi Barnes, Smith's Falls — I cannot see any reason why we shouli 
 
 befo 
 exen 
 Prov 
 was 
 matt 
 shall 
 but 
 for 
 
 The Convention agreed tliat Clause No. 2 of the report should be deal has 
 with at a later stage of the proceedings. arou 
 
 trad( 
 The Secretary read Clause 3 of the report as follows: ^kj 
 
 Ave, 
 
 pass that resolution; we have nothing to present. I do not see that we havt 
 any authority to place any question of that kind upon the ballot paper li 
 there is power given to us as a municipality. It states in that resolutioi 
 that we shall ask for a vote upon these questions at the next election; w 
 cannot get the power between now and then to do so. 
 
 Resolved, that as this Council (The Council of the City of Hamilton) 
 petitioned Ihe Ontario Logis' re at its Session early -in the present yea; 
 for the abolition of the power .vnich municipalities h.ave at present to gran 
 
 for 1 
 palit 
 gives 
 
 to manufacturing establishments exemption from taxation, this Counci 
 
 re-affirms its objection to the law allowing municipalities to grant sue! *^^ 
 
 exemptions, and instructs the delegates to the Tax Exemption TJonvention 1 
 
 present a copy of this resolution to the Convention. " ™ 
 
 ment 
 
 Aid. Emory, Hamilton, moved, seconded by Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton thlnl 
 
 the adoption of Clause No. 3 as passed by the Council of Hamilton. to co 
 
 that 
 Aid. Emory, Hamilton-Here is one place at any rate where I, as a r.(j„f, 
 
 representative from the City of Hamilton, am permitted to speak wiH .. , 
 
 authority, because the City of Hamilton has given us that authority. Or • , 
 
 other questions that come up, if T t? part in the discussion or vote (ir 
 
 questions it is on my own responsibil t v n 1 the municipality is not back o: j 
 
 me. In this the municipality is a; ;:■' jp k. I am sorry that Hamlltcui cons 
 
 occupies the unenviable position, I belli." of having petitioned the legiv ^^^ ] 
 
 lature some time ago to abolish the principle of bonusing or of allowini 
 
 municipalities to bonus manufacturing establishments, and the Legislatun ] 
 
 in their W'isdom passed a law forbidding municipalities bidding against eadi travi 
 
 other by granting bonuses? to manufacturing establishments, and then tin eenti 
 
 City of Hamilton, I believe, was the first municipality after that law w:i clpal 
 
 passed to ask for special legislation allowing them \o grant a bonus. I ma} be p 
 
 be wrong in this, but I think I am lg<ht. , . grea 
 
 """•"""■" '" ^ taxa 
 
 But, we feel in Hamilton that i>iere Is a class of people that are beinf jjjjj 
 
 exempted from laxation, and the poor men are having to pay their taxes. 1' ^^ic 
 
 the rich man escapes the tax collector a certain amount of taxes has got t g^^Q, 
 
 be collected, and the poor man has to pay them. As I underaitand it. i q^jj 
 
 was a manufacturer in the town of Chatham who, when it was fairly placot ^^^^ 
 
39 
 
 done. 
 
 why we shovil 
 lee that we hav* 
 
 ballot paper li 
 I that resolutio. 
 lext election; w 
 
 before him ihat ho was robbing the poor man, would not accept of his 
 exemption; 1 think that man's name ought to be blazoned over all this . 
 Province of Ontario. He is the first iiianufactuj-er I ever heard tell of who 
 was not willing to take all the exemptiim he could get. We want this • 
 matter settled, so that Hamilton shall not bid against Toronto, and Toronto 
 shall not bid against St. Catharines, against London, or any other place, 
 
 but that the privilege w*' hav<' of exempting these concerns irom taxation 
 ' ■ for all except school purposes shall be taken away from us, and then, as it 
 
 should be deal has been said by the Alderman from London, these parties will not go 
 around irom one end of this Province to the otljr intei-vlewing boards of 
 trade, and interviewing reception committees from the various city councils, 
 and seeing where they can get a free site, or exemption from taxation for 
 five, ten, fifteen or twenty years, and llien they want water and everything 
 
 ty of Hjvmiltoiii 
 
 for nothing. In this way they go irom place to place and see what munici- 
 
 the present yea; 
 
 present to gran 
 
 . . p gives these institutions advantage, as well as furnishing them with the 
 
 s to grant sucl 
 
 pality will give them the best advantages. We believe that the municipality 
 gives these institutions advantage, as well as furnishing them with the 
 opporttinity of manufacturing within their midst; we think that locating 
 
 3n XJonvention t 
 
 where they have the advantage of a large population is an advantage to 
 
 them, and we do not wish to compete for it. If a manufacturing establish- 
 ment feels that St. Catharines is a better place than Hamilton we do not 
 drew, Hamilton think it is fair that Hamilton should offer them something and induce them 
 amilton. to come to Hamilton when they oug>ht to go to St. Catherines; and we ask 
 
 that this Convention shall further the action that was taken by the City 
 e where I, as a council of Hamilton, and ask the Legislature to take away from municipali- 
 to speak wi^ii ^j^^ ^.j^.^ privilege ot granting exemptions, believing that it is another system 
 
 t aiithoritv. Or 
 
 of granting bonuses to establishments. 
 
 sion or vote or 
 
 y is not back o: Mr. Robertson, St. Catharines— I think we have now got what we may 
 that Hamlltor consider a perfectly clear cut resolution, and I believe myself it is one of 
 ioned the legi- ^|,^ principal reasons or causes why this Convention is being held to-day. 
 or of allowing * 
 the Legislatun I know as a matter of fact that many manufacturing instituticms who have 
 
 ng against eacli travelled over this country from one town to another have made false repre- 
 and then tin sentations; I have no hesitation in saying po: they represent to one muni- 
 r that law wa dpality that another was prepared to do so and so for them, what will you 
 1 bonus. I mii; b« prepared to do? "We have suffered from them in St. Catharines to a very 
 ■; - ,. great extent. We have institutions there that have been exempt from 
 
 taxation for fifteen years, and within a very short time they have notified 
 ' that are beiuf ^■^ q^^^ Council that unless they get another exemption they will go some- 
 their taxes. I' ^gj.,, ei^, i believe there is no point that this Convention cin affirm more 
 taxes has got i^ BtW)ngly, or that will have more effect, than ito state here as positively as we 
 nderstand it. i ^ ^j^^^^ ^^j^ jg ^^^ ^^ ^^^ clauses of exemptions that we wish to have 
 as fairly placcn gjQpppd. Notwithstanding that my friend thinks that our forefathers fought 
 
40 
 
 !| 
 
 some hiindri'clt> of yejirs ago for the Magna Charta, wg wish to have our 
 solves in some instances confined, we wish to have our liberty curtailed ii 
 S(»me instanct'S, because, I believe, it is not, in a great many instamc; 
 where by-laws of that kind are submitted to the people and are carried, li; 
 what I might call thi' proper wish of the people, but by the very stroiu 
 influence of two ur three good platform speakers and some other things tli;i 
 are perhaps not handled on the platform. I cer'tainly will support ihi 
 resolution, and I wish to emphasize ,as strongly as I possibly can that if wi 
 affirm this resolution this Convention will not have met in vain. 
 
 Aid. McAndrew (Haniiliton) — Being one of the Aldermen from the Cii; 
 of Hamilton I am somewhat interested in this, and I believe every meniln 
 of this Convention will vote for this resolution, for this is one of the deiii 
 fiients of this Province, and if we carry this resolution and carry also tli* 
 ofther resolution that Dominion Government officials shall pay an inconi 
 tax like other people and pay their just debts, and we accomplish no ninr 
 than that this year, this Convention has done a work, as my kind friend ha 
 said, that ought to be emblazoned on a banner. We, in Hamilton, belic\' 
 in exchanging ideas, and if we believe in it in Hamilton, we may hope th:i 
 you will believe likewise. , 
 
 R The argument we use in the City of Hamilton now-a-days, and probabl 
 I use it more than any other memb<'r of the Council, is, what right, out o 
 twenty-one aldermen in the City Council, has a majority of eleven to m.ik 
 me pay some other man's tax? Eleven men will vote for a resolution 
 exempt some large industry and compel me, a poor Tian, to walk up o 
 the 14th day of September and help pay another man's taxes. I say the 
 have no right to do that. You may say these industries will go some pl.u 
 else. In the State of Michigan— I am very well informed on this subject- 
 there is no tax exemption. When a company wants to locate in the sd 
 burbs of a city in this Province they generally apply for tax exemptioi 
 and the men who have vacant land button-hole the aldermen vo get tli 
 scheme through the City Council, to increase th(> value of their own ir 
 perty. In Michigan they say, come down in our end of the town and lociii 
 your industry and we will go down in our pockets and each give you $1" 
 If you do it, because you increase the value of our property. Not so in tlii 
 Province. You go east and locate a factory, and ma.ke the men in the we? 
 pay for it, while it will (mly enhance the value of the property in the e if 
 We do not believe in that; we say, pay your own taxes; if you can get nv 
 foolish enough to pay your taxes get them to do it Individually, but d 
 not compel a man to pay your taxes who does not want to pay them. 
 
 I could tell you of tl e many tricks and many ways we have in Haiiii 
 ton as tax reformers. Some years ago we passed a by-law saying that n 
 
 pla 
 
 in 
 
 ex( 
 
 lou 
 
 be I 
 
 bei 
 
 arc 
 
 ma 
 
 exp 
 
 for 
 
 mit 
 
 of 
 
 dre 
 sum 
 
 I 8i 
 
 thu 
 
 em I 
 
 wag 
 
 Uav 
 
 told 
 
 and 
 
 We 
 
 the 
 
 Hai 
 
 Har 
 
 east 
 
 dow 
 
 Thf 
 
 goii 
 
 said 
 
 wer 
 
 just 
 
 you 
 
 wel 
 
 tior 
 
 tndi 
 
 the 
 tali 
 reiK 
 
 Trs^SEasaBSHi 
 
41 
 
 ish to have our 
 crty curtailed ii 
 
 ninny instanti'; 
 d are carried, by 
 
 the vory stroni 
 other things t"ii;i 
 will support thi: 
 ly ciui that if w. 
 
 vain. 
 
 en from the Cii; 
 ve every menil)i: 
 oni' of the detri 
 id carry also th* 
 1 pay an inoonv 
 •omplish no mov 
 y kind friend ha 
 Hamilton, belicv 
 ve may hope th;i 
 
 ays. and probal)! 
 vhat right, out o 
 )f eleven to m:ik 
 )r a resolution 
 1, ito walk up 
 axes. I say the 
 ill go some pl.ii 
 on this subject- 
 ocate in the sii 
 ir tax exemptiot 
 3rmen io get tli 
 >f their own i r 
 town and Iocmi 
 ich give you $10 
 y. Not so in thi 
 men In the we? 
 perty in the eif 
 you can get nir 
 Ividnally. but d 
 to pay them. 
 
 e have in Haiiii: 
 IV saying that a 
 
 plant and machinery should be exempt. Wv thought that was a good move 
 In the right direction. We worked on that system for a lung time; we 
 exempted all plant and machinery wherever found, but after a while we 
 Jounfl our taxes were getting very small, and these people were reaping the 
 lienefit of it ; and we came to the conclusion that as lung as they reaped the 
 benefit of it they would never help to get the law amended. So we turned 
 around last year and moved in another direction. Now we say plant and 
 machinery bhall be exempt, but only when the goods manufactuied are 
 exported from the city. Just to show the kind ot people who generally apply 
 lor exemption, I hold in my hand the statement of the Assi^ssment Com- 
 missioner of the City of Hamilton; he was deputed to make a statement 
 Of the business that was exempt in the City of Hamilton. 
 
 The Eagle Knitting Company employs fifty men and boys, two hun- 
 dred women and girls; they pay in salaries $850 a week; $850 divided 
 among 250 employees is about $3.00 a week wages for men, boys and girls. 
 I Bald in the City Council, the factory that pays such large (?) wages as 
 that should pay their own taxes. The Hamilton Facing Mill Company 
 egaiploy the enormous number oi seven hands, and they pay $72 a week 
 ijUges, ,and they are exempted. When they came to Hamilton and asked to 
 l|||,ve their factory exempt from taxation they "rung a bell" <»n us. and 
 told us they were going to employ about 200 hands; they got the by-iaw 
 and they employ 'the number of seven. We are tired oi that in Hamilton. 
 We say we do not want one city competing against another city, but allow 
 the industry to settle in its natural location; we do not care if it goes to 
 Hamilton or goes to Toronto. There is a firm in Hamilton now called the 
 Hamilton and Toronto Sewer Pipe Co.; they have two factories, one in the 
 east and one in the west end. The factory in the west end was burned 
 down; there was an insurance of $15,000 on it, and they got their insurance. 
 T|iey had the audacity to come to the City Council and say. now, we are 
 fOing to enlarge our factory in the east end, exempt us from taxation. We 
 said, what are you going to do with the factory in thi' west end, whi-re you 
 were burned out? They said, we are not going to do anything with that 
 JUBt now. We said, we would be losers at both ends. You want to increase 
 your factory in the east, and you do not want us to tax you. They said, 
 well, if you don't, the City of Toronto will take us and give us an exemp- 
 tion. We said, all right, go to the City of Toronto if you want to. If an 
 tipflustry wants to leave a municipality tell them to go. 
 
 "n; Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound— I do not think it is necessary to prolong 
 t]^ discussion on this resolution, because I do not believe there is a represen- 
 ^Ive here but what approves of this resolution. But I am surprised at the 
 ri^rt of Aid. McAndrew has given of the state of municipal aifjiirs in Hamil- 
 
 • 
 
42 
 
 ton; it appears to me that a Council's municipal business must be done in ;in 
 extraordinary way that would grant exemption without any conditions 
 attached. I believe, though, that it is the opinion of every member of tTii^ 
 Convention that this resolution is right. I do not know that it Is necessary 
 for me to air our municipal difficulties. I believe the principle Is rlglii 
 and I am prepared to support it. 
 
 Aid. Keating, St. Catharines — I think we ought to go a little fur- 
 ther than that. While it is stated here that those who are giving l)onus«>p 
 to manufacturers should be prohibited from doing so, yet we And at every 
 session of the Legislature some mundcipality applying' for special power. 
 and getting it, to encourage industries of that kind. I think there should 
 be a stop to that, and I think we ought to take some action to prevent the 
 Legislature granting such privileges any longer. 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville — I am opposed to the principle of bonuser 
 but I believe every municipality should have the right to detennine foi 
 itself how it will use its own money. In the City of Belleville we have 
 a vacant building that cost about $40,000, that had been a foundry; the 
 foundry was not successful, and the building lay idle for a number of years. 
 We h.ad the opportunity of bringing a large canning industry there if we 
 would grant the company exemption from taxation. We deemed it wise, 
 in order to have the building used, to grant exe^iptdon, and I do not think 
 we did wrong in doing so; and I believe if Belleville had the opportunity of 
 doing the same thing agtain and securing an industry such as that by mere 
 exemption from taxation, that we would do it. But the matter of bonusing 
 and inducing one industry that is already located to go to another munici 
 pality is a principle we can all vote against. I would like to know when 
 the City of Hamilton stands to-day; are they in favor of this resolution, or 
 in favor of what the Ontario Government did for them specially? I bo 
 lieve, Aid. Aid. McAndrew, that since you passed that resolution you went 
 to the Ontario Parliament and got them to pass u special resolution to over 
 ride what your own Council did? 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — That is so. 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville — Then I join with the other delegate in say- 
 ing you are an extraordinary people, and you ought to have some of the 
 delegates here to teach you. " 
 
 Aid. MAcndrew, Hamilton — When a man comes up here and says a muni- 
 cipality has a right to lo what they like with their own money, he ought 
 to go back and learn tl e first principles. 
 
43 
 
 Mayor Smyth, Lindsny— T do not see why municipalities should not 
 have the privilege of exempting from taxation any industry to be estab- 
 lished in their midst for a certain number of years, and at the end of a 
 certain number of yi'ars that industry will be eligible to be taxed. The 
 establishment of an industry in a place brings in a large number of opera- 
 tives, and they are supported and are a benefit to the municipality, and 
 they pay taxes; otherwise the value of the property would remain as it 
 was. If by erecting a factory in any location it increases the value of pro- 
 perty, the municipality gets the advantage of the increased value by In- 
 creased taxation. So, I must object to those gentlemen who express them- 
 Belves ,as thinking this Convention is a unit on the matter. I agree with 
 the gentleman who has last spoken, and I am pleased to know I am not 
 alone on this question. 
 
 Mayor Radford, Gait — I will say I am heartily in sympathy with the 
 resolution. I think the Town of Gait occupies the unenviable position of 
 being the largest manufacturing centre in the Province of Ontario, and I 
 will say that we have never granted a bonus or exemption from taxation 
 until last year, when we were compelled to do it on account of the grasp- 
 ing tendency of a certain place. If such a resolution as this was passed, 
 and if our Government would stand by it, and not grant Hamilton or any 
 other municipality unfair advantages, I think w^e would have accomplished 
 a great deal of good by this Convention. ,^ ,; , , , , ., , 
 
 I think it was only last year another institution or establishment left 
 our town. Why? One of our neighboring towns or villages offered them a 
 bonus of $10,000. Whilst we have been able to get along, and we have been 
 able to hold our own with any other municipality in the Province of On- 
 tario, we are in that happy position of saying that we never granted any 
 bonus or any exemption or passed any by-law for that purpose until last 
 year; and I think If each municipality had taken the same stand that wc 
 have done there would have b(>en no trouble, and there would not be the 
 grasping or stealing by one municipality from another. The only thing I 
 think you lack is that you require some Scotch principle to hold on, and 
 then if you had that you would not require to throw your substance away. 
 
 ielegate in say- •■ ^j^ Parnell, London— The statement has been made by gentlemen 
 ve some of tlic jj^^.^ ^y^^^^ ^^^^ were against bonusing, but in favor of exemption. I fail to 
 see the difference between bonusing and exempting property. I am not going 
 to enlarge upon It, but simply pass the remark over. Another statement Is 
 tkat Wellevllle was glad to get this canning factory because It gave work 
 and so forth. TKey would have us l>elieve that if that company had not got 
 that paltry exomi)tion they would never have started the canning factory. 
 
 t be done in ;iii 
 any condition.s 
 member of tills 
 ; It is necessary 
 inclple Is rlglii 
 
 50 a little fui- 
 givlng bonusc? 
 
 re find at every 
 special power. 
 
 ik there should 
 
 I to prevent the 
 
 Iple of bonuses 
 ) determine for 
 leville we have 
 
 a foundry; the 
 umber of years, 
 ttry there if we 
 ieeraed it wise, 
 
 I do not think 
 3 opportunity of 
 as that by mere 
 ;ter of bonusing 
 another munlci- 
 
 to know wherf 
 is resolution, or 
 [>eclally? I be- 
 
 utlon you went 
 lolution to over 
 
 id says a muiii- 
 loney, he ought 
 
'H'li 
 
 m 
 
 I certninly think that it is not tho mere exc^mption from taxation th it i- 
 tal<ing them thorc; it is the fact that that city is the best place to locate in 
 Rut they thought the City of Belleville was soft enough to give them th 
 exemption, and they got it. ., - - 
 
 Councillor I^aughton. Toronto Junction— I represent the Town of Torotur 
 Junction, and I know we have suffered a great deal from exemptions. Ttlfr. 
 is sc)i)Tely a month passes but what we have representatives of differpiv 
 institutions coming there and playing off other municipalities against ouis 
 and trying to find out which will give the most. We have never, since i 
 h:is been a town, given a bonus, but we have given exemptions and cheat 
 water rates; and that is practically a bonus. A bonus and an exemptioi 
 are the same. There is an institution that Is fitting up a. place there. Thy 
 did they not go to Toronto? Because about six out of eleven representa 
 tives in Toronto Junction voted to exempt them from taxes and give then 
 cheap water, which Tonmto refused to do. We are thus robbing Toronti 
 of that much industry. It is simply a matter of convenience for them, 
 have an interest in a large factory which is exempted, but. for all that 
 I would certainly vote and do all I could to do away with all exemption? 
 
 Cries of "Question, question." . ., .. .,- 
 
 The Chairman put the motion which, on a vote having been taken, wa^ 
 declared carried. 
 
 The Convention adjourned to meet at 10 o'clock Friday morning, Sep 
 tember 10th. < ^. .: <- .- . . - , . ..,..,._ 
 
 -':'\ ■■■'■:■■■/'-■-'''''.■- y-:'^- :rl;^ Fuidav, Se)»tcinl)or lOtl;, lJ-i>7, 10 o'clock a.m. 
 
 The Chairman, Aid. Scott, called the Convention to order. , ,. ,, 
 
 The Chairman — The first matter for consideration this morning, as 
 y<>u are all aware, is the question of the permanency of this organization 
 Before we enter upon the discussion, I will take the liberty of saying one 
 thing to you: we have a great many matters to consider, matters of very 
 great importance, and I would ask the members of the Convention to re- 
 member two things: the first is to bo as pointed as pos&ible in discus- 
 sions, not taking up a very great deal of time, because sometimes long 
 speeches are nothing like as effective as very short ones; and when a poin 
 has been made by one speaker, may I suggest that there be no reiteratio 
 of it; a point made by one does just as well as if it were made by a dozen 
 if these two rules are observed, I think we will get through with our buslnes 
 
45 
 
 taxation th it i. 
 lace to locate in 
 o give tht'm th 
 
 rown of ToroTitf 
 :emptions. ITlcr. 
 ives of differpiv 
 ies ngninst ours 
 e never, since i 
 Jtions and chcai 
 id an exemptioi 
 
 lace tht'ie. 
 
 '?. nv 
 
 even representa 
 s and give then 
 robbing Toronti 
 nee for them, 
 lut for all thai 
 I all exemption? 
 
 been taken, wa! 
 
 y morning, Sep 
 
 1() o'clock a. 11). 
 r. 
 
 lis morning, a; 
 lis organization 
 y of saying om 
 matters of very 
 invention to re 
 (■ible in discus^ 
 sometimes loiij: 
 id when a poin 
 e no reiteratio 
 ade by a dozen 
 ith our buslnes 
 
 with greater dispatch. I am very anxious that we should get through with 
 the very important matters this morning, so that the fear some of the 
 members expressed yesterday that perhaps at an afternocm session, when 
 attendance might be slim, some important matters might be passed through 
 without receiving full and fair consideration, may not be realized. 
 
 Mayor Smyth, of Lindsay, moved, seconded by Aid. Dice, of Milton, and 
 resolved, that it is the opinion of this Convention that the formation of an 
 annual municipal convention is desirable. 
 
 Mayor Smyth, IJndsay — Mr. Chairman, I am not going to discuss the 
 desirability of the formation of an annual municipal convention. I *iind 
 there Is a very great diversity of opinion about it. and in order to expedite 
 matters I will just allow it U, be left to the wish of the Convenlloh. and 
 afterwards, if a resolution can be prepared and adopted, the committee 
 already appointed, or a special committee, can arrange the details of the 
 annual convention. I will just allude to one thing. A silmilar conveni~onis 
 proposed to be held in Columbus, Ohio, on the 28th of September— a Con- 
 venti(m of M.a.yors and Councilmen — to form an Annual Municipal organiza- 
 tion. The objects of this Columbus Convention just about «'xemplify my 
 idea of what the object of our proposed Annual C(mvention should be. 
 
 The Chairman stated the motion. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — There is just a question whether we s» ,mld 
 make this a Provincial or Dominion organization. I do not know whether 
 any of the meml>ers of the Convention ha.ve given the matter any thought: 
 but it does seem to me that we ought to take a wider range. However, I 
 do not want to take up time now on this motion, but I felt that T should 
 offer this suggestion to the meeting. 
 
 The Chairman— That might be a matter which the Committee to which 
 this will be referred could deal with, and on which they might bring in a 
 report. 
 
 The Chairman put the motion which, on a vote having been taken, was 
 declared carried unanimously. 
 
 Moved by Councillor Southern, of Lindsay, seconded by Mayor Hewer, 
 of Guelph, that the resolution of Mayor Smyth, of Lindsay, be referred to 
 n Special Committee, to be composed of Mayor .Johnson, of T3ellevill°, 
 Mayor Smyth, of Lindsay, Alderman Parnell. o" London. Alderman Howard, 
 7of Guelph, and Mayor Thompson, of Owen Sound, to formulate rules for 
 conducting the business and jirranging all necessary details for the proper 
 organization of an Annual Municipal Conference, and report to this Conven- 
 tion at 2 o'clock p.m. to-day. 
 
The Chairman stated the motion. ,; . • • ^ 
 
 Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls — It appears to me that the CommittCi' 
 ought to bt> larger on a question of this kind. 
 
 The Chairman — If you make the Committee too large you will take 
 away from this Convention a good deal of power that we desired to have 
 present when matters are being discussed; and I do not consider that the 
 arranging of some little matters connected with the organization is of sucli 
 very great importance that it should take up any very great lengi^: of timf, 
 
 Cries of "Question, question." .; 
 
 Mayor Elliott, Brantford — Before you put the question, Mr. Chairman, 
 it occurs to me it is unnecessary for this Convention to have rules to govern 
 it except parliamentary rules. I think it would be just as well if that reso- 
 lution were dropped altogether. If we have the Annual Convention let the 
 parliamentary rules govern; they are quite sufficient. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I think myself that the Committee on Resolu- 
 tions was simply appointed as a safeguard, and I do not think the mem- 
 bers of this Convention need be in the least alarmed about any radical 
 changes or recommendations being brought in by that Committee. 
 
 The Chairman put the motion which, on a vote having been taken, was 
 declared carried. 
 
 Aid, Carlyle. Toronto — I move that liberty be granted to the Committee 
 on Resolutions to retire. r- : ; '' 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — The members of the Committee on Resolu- 
 tions would like to be present while the business of the Convention is going 
 on. I object to leaving the Convention and the Convention transacting 
 business while I am absent. As Chairman of the Committee on Resolutions 
 I will say that we will transact business at the proper time; but I do not 
 think it is fair to the municipalities we represent to ask us to retire and 
 have the Convention transact business in our absence. 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London — I do not think the members of the Convention 
 thoroughly understood the purport of the motion. As a matter of fact we 
 have before us now a very large report of the Committee on Resolutions, 
 and they should be here to defend or explain their report or otherwise; we 
 are wholly in ignorance of what line of thought the Committee applied to 
 the different resolutions, and we certainly will not be able to accomplish 
 anything during their absence which would be practicable and profitable. I 
 think they ought to remain. 
 
 M 
 
 nil 
 
 th 
 
 afl 
 
The Chalrmnn — That Is my own feeling in the matter. 
 
 be Comniittet 
 
 you will take 
 jsired to have 
 aider that the 
 ion is of sucli 
 engt.: of time. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, 
 ules to govern 
 11 if that reso- 
 i^ention let the 
 
 ee on Resolu- 
 ink the mem- 
 t any radical 
 ittee, 
 
 en taken, was 
 
 he Committee 
 
 e on Resolu- 
 
 ition is going 
 
 transacting 
 
 Resolutions 
 
 jut I do not 
 
 retire and 
 
 Convention 
 jr of fact wo 
 Resolutions, 
 therwise; we 
 3e applied to 
 accomplish 
 profitable. I 
 
 Aid. T^cAndrew, Hamilton— We will present oar report after the ad- 
 journment. '- '■■::,■_-' ,, :-{iM^'\'- ■;,.'.>-;. v '• _-'" '! 
 
 The Chairman — Exception lias been taken to the Committe*- retiring, 
 and the suggestion has been made that they can consider the matters l)«'fnre 
 them immediately after the ndjoiirnment and make their report in the 
 afternoon. .. . ,, , , ^ ^ , . , 
 
 Aid. Carlyle. Toronto — In my humble judgment it would crowd too 
 much work into the afternoon session if you do not allow that Committee to 
 deal with these resolutions now. 
 
 The Secretary — I would draw your attention to the fact that there is 
 nothing to go to that Committee. 
 
 The Chairman — If there is nothing for them to consider they need not 
 
 go out. ..•><:••■■■- '^-■'. r--. 
 
 ' -^ ^ -''•■''-"' •^'■■'. ' ■'■'■' -'- Motions. ■; --J;:f< •' "• '" V,^^ ■:■■''''' ' 
 
 Moved by Aid. M. Y. Keating. St. Catharines, seconded by Aid. Dona'd 
 Robertson, St. Catharines. ..,.,,,.. 
 
 Whereas in the opinion of this Convention the granting of bonuses to 
 manufacturers by municipalities is detrimental to the best interests of the 
 country at large, therefore the Exectitive Committee appointed by this Con- 
 vention be instructed to memorialize the Government to secure the passage 
 of such legislation as will positively prohibit the granting of such bonuses. 
 and to prevent the passage of any acts granting special powers to any 
 municipality to grant such bonuses. •• : vt; - 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London — I think you ought to lay that on the table. You 
 are asking an i*lxecutive Committee to do something when you have no such 
 committee, and it has not yet been decided that we will have one. 
 
 The Chairm.aii — Would it not be just as well to have it come from the 
 Convention itself and not have a special committee. 
 
 Aid. McKelvey, Kingston — I move, it is not an amendment — 
 
 Mayor Elliott, Brantforfl — I rise to a point of order. We have one 
 -resolution before the chair. My worthy friend says he is not proposing an 
 amendment. 
 
 The Chairman — Unless it is an amendment to this resolution it is not 
 jjli order. 
 
48 
 
 Aid. MoKelvey. Kingston— I make It ns nn jiujendm«>nt to that bocauac ii 
 takes up the whole question of fxeniption; that is only one clause. 
 
 The Chiiirmnn — When this Convention has decided upon the ditVerent 
 points let us present a memorial to the Government or Governments embody- 
 ing all our recommendiitiona, including this one. It seems to me we can do 
 It much more effectively in that way than by simply doing it piecemeal. 
 
 Aid. Keating. St. Catharines — Would it have to go to the spt'clal Com- 
 mittee on Resolutions? • 
 
 The Chairniiin — No, I don't think that is necessary. The Cunv.ntioii 
 reserves to itself the right to deal with resolutions as it pleases, and wht n 
 It pleases. When we have drawn our conclusions and the results of tht; 
 Convention have been obtained, then a resolution asking that those conclu- 
 sions be presented to the various governments or government as the case 
 may be. would be the final act oi this Convention. — Cries of " Hear, hear." 
 and " That's right." 
 
 On CO 
 
 of the Convention action upon this motion was deferred. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham moved, si'conded by Mr. Laughton, 'I'orcnto 
 Junction. That Section 3 ol the Cons(»lidated Assessment Act be abolished 
 and erased from the Statutes, which reads as follows: 
 
 The Secretary — Aid. Marx's resolution is .an amendment to the Assesb- 
 ment Act. . ■ ,.„ ..... .-.v..,*;-. .,;.^- -.;^,--^; .-'•- ■!.;:... ^r^ • ,- -^ ■ 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — We should consider tax exemption only; that 
 was what was decided upon. 
 
 The Chairman — I would rule it out of order. - - ' ^ ^ ' ' : ■ ; 
 
 Mayor Elliott. Brantford— How can you rule it out of order when we 
 have not heard it. .. , «.>:.,,. , 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx. Chatham — I did not expect that we would confine our- 
 selves strictly to exemptions mentioned in the Statute; I think we should 
 be more broad. We will have time thds afternoon — 
 
 The Chairman — Your discussion is out of order. 
 
 The Chairman asked for a vote on the question of whether the scope of 
 llie Convention should be extended beyond dealing with exemptions only, 
 and on a vote having been taken declared that it was the wish of the Con- 
 vention not to extend the scope. ; 
 
M 
 
 It bt'oanat' it 
 
 he (llfl'ereni 
 nts embody- 
 e we can do 
 cemt'Ul. 
 
 special Com- 
 
 * 
 
 Convintioii 
 8, and whi n 
 jstilts of th(! 
 hose couchi- 
 
 as the case 
 ili'ar, hear; 
 
 deferred. 
 
 oil, Toronto 
 be abolished 
 
 the Assoss- 
 
 m only; that 
 
 ?r when we 
 
 Iconfine our- 
 we should 
 
 |the scope of 
 jtions only, 
 I of the Con- 
 
 Aid. Hannaford, Ifamillon I move, seconded by Aid. Finlay, llaniliton. 
 that this Ctinvention disapprove of exemptions on church properties. I put 
 It In this concise form because I wish to have the matter brought belore this 
 Convent i«»n and get an expression of opinion upon it. 
 
 Aid. McKelvey. Kingston— 1 b«'g to move, second, 'd by Mayor Skinner, 
 Kingston. That this Convention memoralize the Ontaric> Government to only 
 exempt from municipal tiixation the following: Churches, and the liuid con- 
 nected therewith; public schools, universities, public hospitals, asylums, 
 orphanages, mechanics' instituteK, (Government and municipal buildings 
 and property, poor houses, houses of industry; and that ail property except 
 goveinnient and municipal shall be liable to Local Improvement taxi'S. 
 
 That all persons earning $700 and over per annum be assessed for the 
 full amount of their incon.e. That the law be so amended that (lovernment 
 officials be placed in ♦ le same posiitlon as other wage earners. That a- 
 Committee be appoir .i. by this Convention to Interview Ihe Government 
 with a view to having the desired legislation passed. 
 
 Mr. W. A. Clarke, York Township — I move, seconded by Councillor Mc- 
 Culloch, East Toronto. That this Convention petition the Local Legislative 
 Assembly of this Province to so amend sub-section 3, section 7, Consolidated 
 Assessment Act, as to declare that every place of worship and lanvi used In 
 connection therewith, churchyard or burying ground, shall be exempt from 
 taxation for general purposes to the lollowing extent only; that Is to say, in 
 cities and towns to the amount of $16,000; In villages and townships to the 
 amount of $6,000. 
 
 Mayor Elliott. Brantford, moved, seconded by Aid. Parnell. London, 
 That when this Convention adjourns It shall meet again in Brantford on the 
 23rd September, 1898. 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— Can we put resolutions in at a later stage 
 of the proceedings? 
 
 The Chairman— I do not think there will be any difficulty on that scorf . 
 
 What is the next order of business? 
 
 Action was deferred on Clause No. 2 of Report No. 1 of the Committee oa 
 Resolutions. 
 
 The Chairman read Clause No. 2 of the Report. 
 
 Aid. McAndrew. Hamilton — Mr. Chairman, as Chnirman of the Com- 
 xoittee on Resolutions I desire to point out what probably the members 
 
50 
 
 would not notice in reading that resolution. This resolution calls upon 
 municipalities to take this vote. At the meeting of the Committee it was 
 pointed out that while one municipality might do it the next intervening 
 municipality would p-obably, from the complexion of the Council, roiuse to 
 do it; therefore you would not get a proper test of the case. Whi.e th 
 Committee thought this was a. proper matter to come before this Convention, 
 still we thought if those questions were to be presented to the people to 
 obtain a test on the exemption question, that the Ontario Government should 
 compel municipalities to take a plebiscite vote on the question. If it was left 
 optional with the municipalities to do it we wert' afraid that we would noi 
 get the voice of the people. ^ . v i v. ,v 
 
 Then again, the rejection by this Convention of the first resolution oi 
 Alderman Carlyle's yesterday practically- kills this resolution, because lie 
 asks here that two questions be submitted to the people which this Conven- 
 tion has practically decided against, by saying it was going too far. " 
 
 The point I wished to make was this, that it the delegates desired lo 
 have these questions submitted, and they think the best way to do it would 
 be through the Ontario Government, that resolution will have to be so 
 amended. \;'^,v' '"■"■». - '.'•'■-'.''" :'' .' 
 
 Reeve Robinson, Streetsvillt — Before any further discussion takes place 
 I would like to ask whether any papers have been sent in by any of tlu' 
 aldermen or delegat<3s to be read on the subject. v ; ;■; 
 
 The Chairman — None have been presented. I " 
 
 Aid. Carlyle — It is true, as the Chairman of the Committee has said 
 that the Resolutions Committee indeed thought it would be better to 
 memorialize the Ontario Government to take a plebiscite vote upon thes( 
 questions, but I for one am somewhat opposed to that course. To my minrt 
 the Government will at once tell any deputation v.aiting upon them for tha' 
 purpose, why don't you do this work yourselves; you have power to do ii 
 That would be the answer the Ontario Government would make to a deputii 
 tion waiting upon them. And a vote taken by municipalities would jus- 
 have the same results as a vote taken by the Government. In my humbl' 
 judgment, although that first resolution has not met with the approval of tlii^ 
 Convention, my friend from Hamilton must bear in mind it was only de- 
 tented, I think, by three votes, so that really there is a large sentiment ii 
 this Convention which thinks pretty much as I think myself on the matt'M 
 Then again, I believe it is always a safe course to let the people have ih^ 
 opportunity of pronouncing upon these questions; there Is nothing wrong ir 
 
51 
 
 on calls upon 
 jmittoo it WiiH 
 xt intiTVoning 
 incil, rcluse to 
 se. While th 
 lis Convention, 
 
 the people to 
 irnment should 
 , If it was left 
 
 we would noi 
 
 It resolution of 
 >n, because lie 
 ;h this Conveii- 
 ofar. '• 
 
 ates desired 10 
 to do it would 
 have to be su 
 
 ion takes place 
 by any of thf 
 
 littee has said 
 be better to 
 ote upon thest 
 To my minii 
 ti them for thai 
 power to do it 
 ke to a depuia 
 ties would jus' 
 In my humlil' 
 approval of this 
 t was only d^ 
 ;o sentiment ii 
 on the matt'M 
 people have th*^ 
 thing wrong ii 
 
 it. If we had the endoraation of the people in the matter when we go before 
 ttie Government it would certainly strengthen us to a very great extent. It 
 ■will put the municipalities to no expense; the vote can be taken at the 
 same time as the municipal elections are held, and I would strongly urge the 
 Convention to allow this matter to go. I did not come here expecting to 
 ^rrjr everything that was proposed In the Convention, but I feel somewhat 
 rtrongly on this, even more strongly than I did on the first resolution, and 
 I would like to have an expression of opinion from the 'Citizens of this 
 Province as to how thoy stand on the matter of taxation. This matter has 
 been, to some extent, discussed by members of the House. I think the ex- 
 pressions of opinion that have been given by some of our ablest men on both 
 sides of the Houp.e are well within the recollection of every member of this 
 Convention. Judge Meredith said it was a matter that was worthy of con- 
 sideration for one entire session. It has bei^n spoken of without any doubt 
 that the matter of taxation in this Province was not as it ought to be. Now. 
 I think we ought to at least allow it to go to the people, and let them pro- 
 nounce upon it; it will cost nothing and it will do nobody any harm. Why 
 not let them have it? 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham — In the City of Chatham we have for years 
 agitated the question of doing away with some exemptions and if possible 
 with all. My constituency suffers mostly or chiefly from exemptions of 
 churches and school houses or institutes which are simply commercial ven- 
 tures. I beg) to refer to a college in Chatham standing upon a piece of pro- 
 perty worth from $25,000 to $30,000, and it is free from taxation, while in 
 the same place a commercial school is not exempted. The chief object for 
 which my Council sent mo here was to press or impress upon the Convention 
 the necessity for assessing churches and such institutions as that of which 
 i have spoken now; these exemptions should be done away — 
 
 The Chairman — I think you are talking upon a subject which will come 
 up later when these resolutions are beloie the Convention. The question 
 is now, shall these two quc^stions be submitted to the people for their vote, 
 and not the propriety or impropriety of exempting churches. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham — I wish to emphasize one point more; I heard 
 with pleasure that such a Convention as this was to be called; I think it is 
 very opportune. We are on the eve of an election in this Province, and woe 
 ta that party which does not fall in with us and give us justice by doing 
 away with exemptions. 
 
 Mayor .Johnson, Itelleville— I think the priiidplo of the plebisc^lte can 
 he applied on specific questions, but I think that on a matter so general ns 
 
52 
 
 the questions before us it would be altogether too much !i matter d detail 
 t(» submit to the people. Now, the great principle of temperance was sub- 
 mitted to the people of this Province lor their opinion. In my judgmeni 
 that was a wise thing to do, but .vou see the outcome of it; the people order- 
 ed the Ontario Government to enact legislation to prevent the possibility of 
 liquor being sold or manufactured within the Province. That was undoubt- 
 edly the opinion of the electors of this Province. We have seen that the 
 Government has taken no steps to carry out the will of the people. And. I 
 am quite convinced that, in a matter of this kind, the Legislature is the pro- 
 per place to institute all reforms of this kind. I would object to submitting 
 matters of detail to the individual electors at the polls. I do not think thtn 
 would take that interest in it that would give tlie sound judgment that i- 
 required. It is in the legislative halls where these matters should be con- 
 sidered. 
 
 Aid. Finlay, Hamilton — I do not quite agree with the last speaker; I 
 think if there was a. little more power placed in the hands of the people it 
 would be a great deal better. If a plebiscite vote was to be taken on tlie 
 question over the whole Province, where all municipalities and all districts 
 were enabled to vote, I would be more iavorable towards supporting it. 1 
 think the majority of the members here are in favor of letting the people 
 assert whether they will have a thing or not, and I will support the ques- 
 tion as to whether the people will vote on it in January next. 
 
 Aid. Leslie, Toronto— I would like to point out that the very wording of 
 the i*esolution as it is would debar that, and I heartily concur with those who 
 are in favor (»f the change of asking the Government to submit all these 
 questions to the people; there are two questions submitted, if one or both 
 questions should be decided in the affirmative by a majority of the elector i 
 in a majority of the municipalities where it is submitted, that then tin 
 Government should take further steps. As haft been pointed out, if it U 
 left to the individual municipalities themselves, while one municipality 
 would submit the question three or four surrounding municipalities might 
 refuse, and it might only be submitted at the coming elections in a very 
 small number of th(> municipalities; then, if a majority of that small num- 
 ber carried it it would have no effect upon the Government; the only way in 
 which the Government will be affected will be when they see the majority 
 of the electors all over the Province of Ontario are In favor of any measure, 
 I think the proper way to do is to request the Provincial Government to su li- 
 mit these two questions in all the municipalities at the coming elections. I' 
 it is left to the municipalities themselves I am satisfied a great many of them 
 win not submit It. I am satisfied the Council of Toronto will submit it if 
 the opportunity is given, but I am also satisfied that a great many of the 
 
53 
 
 natter oi detail 
 ranee was siib- 
 1 my judgment 
 le people order- 
 le possibility of 
 .t was undoubt- 
 i seen that the 
 people. And. I 
 ture is the pro- 
 !t to submitting 
 
 not think they 
 idgment that iif 
 
 should be con- 
 
 last speaker; I 
 of the people it 
 le taken on the 
 md all district? 
 upporting it. I 
 ting the people 
 pport the quos- 
 t. 
 
 rery wording of 
 
 with those who 
 
 ibmit all thest 
 
 if one or botli 
 
 of the elector I 
 
 that then tin 
 
 3d out, if it i> 
 
 municipality 
 
 ipalities might 
 
 ions in a very 
 
 [.at small nuni- 
 
 he only way in 
 
 e the majority 
 
 f any measure 
 
 rnment to suh- 
 
 g elections. If 
 
 t many of them 
 
 11 submit it if 
 
 t many of tin 
 
 riiral municipalities which are not so much interested in this question will 
 not submit the question at all. The number of municipalities that wouM 
 submit it would be so small it would have no effect upon the Government. 
 I think it should be placed upon the same basis as the temperance question, 
 dnd the Government themselves should submit it if they are satisfied to 
 get an opinion on those lines. I think if the motion is amended in that way 
 It would be well. , > 
 
 S Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton — If the resolution is amended in that way. 
 there would be no hesitation on the part of this Convention in endorsing it. 
 As it now reads some of the municipalities would and others would not 
 submit it to the people, and you would not have the full expression of the 
 people of the Province. I hope Aid. Carlyle will amend it in that way. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — 1 have not the least hesitation in changing the 
 resolution to suit those who have spoken in that way, if they will guarantee 
 to me that the Government will submit it, but we are giving it out of ou# 
 own hands and submitting it to a body over which we have no direct con- 
 trol, when we can do it ourselves independently of them. That is where I 
 feel the difficulty lies. If I was sure the Government would comply with ouv 
 ■wiehes in the matter and submit it I would have no hesitation in allowing 
 It to go to the Government, b\it who is to give me a guarantee that thq 
 Government will do it? 
 
 Mayor Johnson says it is all very well to submit a definite question like 
 the temperance question. Are not we making this a definite question? We 
 might have submitted the qnestiim of temperance in this way: shall we allow 
 beer to be used, or sometliing else of that kind; and it is jtist the same in 
 this niatter, we aie making it a definite question. An' you in favor of doing 
 away with all exemptions? Can my friend find anything more definite than 
 that? .■'...-.„■.,■ • ■.■;,■- . ',:.. 
 
 Councillor I..aughton. Toronto .Tunction -It appears to me that if Aid. 
 Carlyle would make his re.solution a double barrelled one it might suit the 
 Convention, i would suggest that it be amended to read as follows: '"This 
 Convention would ask the Legislature to submit the question to the people 
 at the next municipal elections, and if they refuse or neglect to submit it 
 that this Convention will pledg»> themselves to use their endeavor to get it 
 Bubmitted in as many municipalities as practicable." 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — The mimicipality has got to do what the 
 ^Unlario Government says; the Ontario Government will issue an order to 
 Ihe City Clerk that he Is to take a vote on this question, and the responsi- 
 bility is on the municipality. If I could guarantee to Aid. Carlyle that the 
 
54 
 
 City of Hamilton would submit the questions that Aid. Carlyle wants suh- 
 raitted probably we would not need to submit it to the Ontario Government, 
 While we have some able men in favor of tax exemptions, yet, as the Council 
 is now constructed, speaking of Aid. Emory, I have a doubt whether, on a 
 resolution, they would take up a vote on the question in the City of Hamil- 
 ton. Hamilton is a manufacturing city, and no doubt it would have some 
 weight. If the Government says Hamilton has got to take the vote the ex- 
 pense will be on Hamilton. ■ 
 
 Aid. McKelvey, Kingston — I do not see how you are going to compel the 
 people tp vote for exemption or non-exemption, whether the Ontario Govern- 
 ment submits it to the people or whether the municipalities do it. The 
 resolution as it is is the correct one, and if any municipality takes so little 
 interest in the exemption question as not to submit it to the people, then it 
 appears to me you will get a very small return. I believe in home rule. 
 Allow every municipality to itself take up the vote. It appears to me nearly 
 all the municipalities will take the vote. 
 
 Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls — I would say that we have no guarantee 
 that the municipalities will take it up. Some seem to think that nearly all 
 the municipalities will take up a vote of that kind. I would just say from 
 my experience that rural districts will not take it up; they are not interested 
 as towns and cities are, and without there is something to back them to 
 make them believe they ought to do it they will not do it; they will simply 
 pass it by and not submit it to the people, and we will not get an expression 
 from the people. I should like to see the Government issue an order, and 
 
 then the municipalities will act. 
 
 '- ''\ - ,,.'■'■ '^" ' ■ , ■' -''} ' - - ' ' f 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx. Chatham — I cannot see the propriety or necessity of sub- 
 mitting it to the people. Voting by the masses upon such a, question gener- 
 ally goes by default. Have the Provincial Government ever submitted 
 anything upon which they have passed a statute to the people? They did it 
 for the good of the people, and to the best of their knowledge and ability. 
 I am sent here to impress upon you and to press for the resolution, if 
 possible, that all exemptions shall be done away with; that special resolutions 
 should be sent to the L«'gislature, and if possible a deputation appointed to 
 wait upon them, I claim that the delegates here certainly represent the 
 majority of the municipalltler- in the Province, and if we here, in this Con- 
 vention, recommend to the Legislature the advisa.bility of a change in thi- 
 statutes regarding exemptions I believe they will listen to us, wh<'reas if 
 we leave it to a vote of the people— vox populi — I believe it would not meei 
 with success; and it would be too late to submit to the Legislature then, f 
 am Inclined to believe, speaking for my constituency, that we might submit 
 
 It 
 in 
 LeJ 
 
oo 
 
 lyle wants sub- 
 io Government. 
 , as the Council 
 whether, on a 
 City of Hamil- 
 »ulcl have some 
 he vote the ex- 
 
 r to compel tht 
 )ntario Govorn- 
 ies do it. The 
 
 takes so little 
 people, then it 
 
 in home rule, 
 rs to me nearly 
 
 3 no guarantee 
 that nearly all 
 just say from 
 not interested 
 back them to 
 ey will simply 
 an expression 
 m order, and 
 
 " ■. i' 
 
 ossity of sul)- 
 
 uestion genor- 
 
 ver submitted 
 
 They did it 
 
 o and ability. 
 
 rosolution, if 
 
 al resolutions 
 
 appointed to 
 represent the 
 
 in this Con- 
 liange in the 
 s, whereas if 
 >uld not meet 
 iture then. 1 
 [night submit 
 
 it to the people, and I doubt very much if they would take enough interest 
 in it to vote on it. I claim we should pass resolutions here and ask the 
 luegislature to act upon them. 
 
 Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound — In listening to the remarks of the 
 different speakers one would imagine that we required to act to-morrow. 
 This is the tirst meeting of this Convention which has bi'en brought about 
 by those who have taken an active interest in this question. I do not 
 imagine that we would be able to get the Ontario Legislature to submit a 
 plebiscite at the coming municipal elections; I think they would say. what 
 have you done yourselves? It would be quite reasonable for us to suggest that 
 thffi municipalities take the not*', as suggested in Aid. Carlyle's reBolution, 
 and if that is not sufficiently effective we can then fairly go to the Govern- 
 ment .and ask them to make it compulsory. I do not believe we are going 
 to achieve so much in the few hours we are sitting here yesterday and to- 
 toy; we are going to do something, but the great work of this Convention 
 on the subject of exemption must extend over a number of years. It is a 
 Ijreat question, and I think it would be well for the Convention to adopt 
 Alderman Carlyle's suggestion without .any further discussion; and if we 
 do not find that that is satisfactory then we can fairly appeal to the Govern- 
 ment and say we are not successful, we cannot get the municipalities to 
 submit this question in general and we ask you to do it for us, and that will 
 cover the ground. --»*1 ' 
 
 Moved by Mayor Elliott, Brantford, seconded by Aid. Parnell, London, 
 in amendment, that this Convention appoint a Committee to wait upon the 
 Ontario Government and request that they submit at the next election in 
 the Province of Ontario the question, " Are you in favor of or opposed to 
 exemptions of any nature with the exception of Government institutions?" 
 
 Aid. Parnell, liOndon — In support of that resolution, I should like to say 
 I believe the Ontario Government would be the proper party to ask to sub- 
 Ulit this question; the reason for that is simply this, that they will be able 
 to control the whole of the constituencies, whereas any action taken in the 
 other direction, as has already been pointed out, would be simply of a 
 partial nature, because as is evidenced here to-day there are a very large 
 number of constituencies who are not even represented at this Convention; 
 ^ere are other reasons why, which it is not necessary for me to go Into. I 
 ^Ueve that this is the proper course to pursue. Then, if we cannot get the 
 Qovernment to take the matter up we will be able to act along the other 
 Hne. 
 
 Mayor Quinlan, Port Hope — It seems to me in submitting these two 
 qliiestions together it is asking us to vote for something that we practically 
 
56 
 
 voted out yesterday, or it is asking us to put before the people something 
 hoping thiit they will Ciirry it against the wishes of this Convention. 1 think 
 there will be as little interest taken in this question as there was when the 
 temperance vote was taken; when it went to the country it was not such a 
 burning question, and the electors paid but very little attention to it, and wh ni 
 it came back to the Government they did not pay any attention at all to it. 
 Why should we practically annul the vote we took here yesterday by asking 
 the people of the Province to change it? I think there was a very decided 
 vote given against it j'esterday. It was fully explained here yesterday, 
 and we know that the masses of the people must be ignorant of what they 
 are voting on; and yet we are going to ask the people to vote on this que3- 
 ti(m. I think it is absurd to ask the people to do the business that we put 
 the Government in power to do. I think if we wish anything done tho 
 Government is the right party to ask to do it; they are put there for that 
 purpose. The people will take an interest in those whom they have sent 
 there, but they will take no interest whatever in tax exemptions, and if 
 they did vote upon it they would not vote intelligently. 
 
 Another thing, I do not see why we should be asked in this Convention 
 to vote for two clauses, some might vote for one clause and some for the 
 other, but we are asked in this Convention to vote for both together, and 
 we are going to ask the people to do the same thing. .if 
 
 Mayor Halsted, Mount Forest— It appears to me that we are submitting 
 this resolution too early in the proceedings of the Convention. I should 
 think it would be better to wait until we have decided what this Convention 
 is in favor of in regard to all the questions that have come before it, and 
 then decide whether it will be wise to ask the Ontario G(tvernment to submit 
 it. I think, with some of the gentlemen who have spoken, that if it was 
 submitted in January simply by the request of this Convention the rural 
 municipalities, as a general thing, would not take the question up, and then 
 the Government would be at a loss to know the feeling of the people and 
 could not act as the people as a whole would require. For that reason I 
 think it would be better for ua to decide on all the questions that are coming 
 up before this Convention, and after that is done to submit a resolution 
 asking the Ontario Government to submit the questions that they have de- 
 cided upon to the electorate of the country in tne elections of 1899. Four 
 months is too short a time to educate the people of this Province up to a 
 great question, as this certainly is; it is no small question. 
 
 I am in sympathy largely with the doing away of exemptions. I come 
 here to-day Intending to support the abolishment of exemptions as a general 
 thing, but I do think that we will defeat our own ends if we have the matter 
 
67 
 
 submitted to the people simply by tlic request of this Convention alono. I 
 think the Government ought to deal with the matter, and then they will he 
 prepared, no doubt, to act upon the final decision arrived at by what the 
 people do. I would like to see Alderman Carlyle withdraw this resolution, 
 and then bring in a resolution asking the Government to submit the ques- 
 tion to the municipalities. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — In the matter of submitting it to the Government, 
 the trouble I see is that the Government will at tmce meet you with this ob- 
 jection; they will say to the deputation which waits upon them, you have the 
 power within yourstlves to submit this quetioii, why do you come to us? 
 There will be the whole trouble; the very first question put to you will be, why 
 don't you do it yourselves? 1 think it is simply a foolish thing lo go to the 
 Government and ask them to do what we have the power to do ourselves. 
 Then again, my friend from Hamilton says they have a great many interests 
 there and they perhaps could not csirry it. Mr. Chairman, if those interests 
 are against the City of Hamilton submitting it we will be in the same 
 position if the Government submits it. Mr. Chauman, U liiose interests 
 interests against it in the City of Hamilton in one way we will also have it 
 in the other way. 1 do hope that the Convention will allow this question to 
 go to the people; it ?§ a safe course, it is a courst that no reasonable man 
 can object to, and I think it is one that will meet with the approval of all 
 the constituencies. 
 
 Mayor Elliott, Brantford — One gentleman has referred to the fact that 
 four months would not be a sufficient time in which to educate the munici- 
 palities on this question. I think they have had forty years; that is what 
 gives rise to this Convention assembling here to-day, and there is no doubt, 
 if the local press take up this question, that by the next Ontario election the 
 people would be so full of education that they would be anxioui? to get the 
 bitUot and express their opinion through it. As it has been pointed out, 
 some municipalities may submit the question and some may not, and there- 
 fore the Government would not have, and the country would not bave. a 
 united opinion upon the question. There is only one way in my mind to 
 obtain this, and that is by the Government themselv.-s submitting it to 
 the people as a whole, and I therefore make the amendment. If we are 
 going to continue these discussions we have indulged in yesterday and this 
 morning we are never going to get to the point. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto— I have no objection to going to the Governmtnt. 
 but I would like to see us submit it ourselves first; and then if we are defeat- 
 ed in it, if we do not get a fair expression of opinion, I have no objection to 
 going to the Government. 
 
 ^^ 
 
 « 
 
58 
 
 ■j' 
 
 it- 
 
 Cries ot ■' Question, question." 
 
 t 
 Mayor Skinner. Kingston — I was very much struck with the last remark 
 
 of the Mayor of Brantford, in which he said if it is not submitted by the 
 Government some places only would vote upon it, and the Government 
 would not have the united opinion of the Province. You must know that the 
 places which are interested in the question will take the vote, and the places 
 which will not take the vote are those which do not care anything about it, 
 which shows that that part of the Province which will not vote is satisfied 
 with the law as it now stands; and if the municipalities are forced to vote 
 upon the question those places that are not interested cannot be expected 
 to give an intelUigent vote when they have not enough interest in it to take 
 the vote upon it. I am opposed to the principle of referendum because I 
 think it is contrary to the Government under which we live, I think this 
 question should be decided by the representatives of the people who are 
 appointed for the purpose of settling these very questions. I see no 
 objection to the main motion of Alderman Carlyle, because in that motion 
 he leaves it to the option of such places as wish to take the vote. Why 
 should these places which have no interest in these questions and are quite 
 satisfied with the law as it is be forced to give an opinion upon the subject 
 at all when they say by their inactivity that they do not wish to give an 
 opinion? For that reason I support the amendment, although I am opposed 
 to the general principle of referendum. 
 
 p. 
 
 w 
 
 The Chairman — I have just received a communication from Alderman 
 Hallam, addressed to myself and the members or the Convention. I will ask 
 the Secretary to read it. It comes in, I think, opportunely at this time. 
 
 I The Secretary read the communication as follows: . .,.,., 
 
 Toronto, September 10th, 1897. 
 
 Mr. Alderman Scott and Members of the Tax Exemption Convention. 
 
 Gentlemen — The question of tax exemption is one of great importance 
 to the taxpayer in every municipality, and should receive your earnest and 
 serious consideration from the broadest possible view that can be taken of 
 the statutory exemptions in this Province. 
 
 I am of opinion that all real property that receives benefits by the ex- 
 penditure of municipal taxes should bear its full share of this expenditure. 
 Municipal councils in cities, towns and villages, should be prevented from 
 granting bonuses to aid industries in any shape or form. This system is 
 wrong in prlncfpl*? and through a mistaken idea has spread; and one place 
 
59 
 
 bids for business against another, offers land and buildings free of taxes, free 
 water and other privileges. This just means that the balance of the tax- 
 payers have to bear the burdens and pay the taxes of these exempted 
 manufacturers. 
 
 There Is no necessity for this, and manufacturing that is unable to pay 
 its taxes cannot succeed by being exempt or getting these special privileges, 
 and legislation should be obtained to deprive every municipality of the 
 power of granting bonuses to aid industries or of exempting them from 
 taxation, giving them free water or free land or any other privileges denied 
 to the rest of the taxpayers. 
 
 i 
 
 ex- 
 ;ure. 
 rom 
 is 
 lace 
 
 The encouraging of manufacturers to locate in certain sections by such 
 means is vicious and contrary to good sound business principles, and I hope 
 that your Convention will not disperse without protesting against this vicious 
 principle, and should pass a strong resolution which should bf? forwarded to 
 the Premier of the Province asking him to pass such legislation as will ac- 
 complish this desired end. 
 
 I have taken a deep interest in tax exemption ever since 1872, and I have 
 been the means, with others, in limiting their operations. 
 
 I think the people are satisfied that the principle of tax exemption in 
 any shape or form is wrong, and it should be made a test question in the 
 next municipal election. 
 
 " Are you in favor of the abolition of tax exemption on real estate, 
 including land and its improvements, that is, houses?" 
 
 " Are you In favor of depriving every municipality of the power of 
 granting bonuses or aiding industries or manufacturers by exempting them 
 from taxation or giving them special privileges?" 
 
 Some such questions put before the people at the next general election. 
 I think, would meet with a hearty response in the a,ffirmative. , . r 
 
 Please excuse this letter and oblige, 
 
 Yours truly, ; :i'r'-':-M 
 John Hallam. 
 
 The Chariman— I had th:it read because it raises the question of the 
 submission of two questions at th(> municipal elections next January. That* 
 I suppose, should go to the Committee on Resolutions. 
 
00 
 
 The Chairman put Mayor Elliott's amendment which, on a vote having 
 been taken, was declared lost. 
 
 The Chairman put the original resolution which, on a vote having been 
 taken, was declared carried. 
 
 The Chairman— It is not my business to say who shall or shall not 
 speak, or what he shall or shall not say so long as he speaks to the point. 
 We have a lot of important work to do, and if we discuss the next resolu- 
 tion to the same extent that we have those we have already had before us 
 we will not get through with one-tenth part of the work. I do not wish to 
 appear as wanting to restrict or restrain discussion, but many a time points 
 nre reiterated and reiterated and the time of the Convention taken up wheiii 
 we might be proceeding with business. I only refer to this so that in the 
 event of our not covering the ground mapped out my responsibility will be 
 discharged. I shall only allow one speech from each individual. 
 
 The Chairman read Clause 4. as follows: Moved by Mayor J. W. John- 
 son, Belleville, seconded by Aid. John Doyle, Belleville, that in the opinion 
 of this Convention the law which permits land held in cities In blocks of two 
 acres and over to be assessed as farm lands shouTcl be repealed. ^ ... 
 
 On motion Clause 4 of the report was imanimously adopted as read. 
 
 The Chairman read Clause 5 of the report as follows: Moved by P. Marx, 
 of Chatham, seconded by J. L. McCulloch, East Toronto, that clause 31 A. of 
 chap. 4S of 55 Victoria be amended by striking out the word " may " in the 
 2nd line thereof, and inserting the word "shall" in lieu thereof. 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London — Did not the Convention decide to deal with tax 
 exemption only? 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham— It is tax exemption. Certainly, if everything 
 comes near to exemption that is one of the things. Thi& very law, if we 
 change the statute, will certainly do away with that pp.rt of the exemption. 
 I do not like these cast iron rules that we should only speak of exemptions 
 as they are. I think we should try to improve '.le statute as much as 
 possible. I know from experience that this is a great hindrance in our 
 statutes. ,■■;,.:',(: -,v,-.-; 
 
 The Chairman— We agreed only to deal with tax exemptions. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx withdrew his motion. 
 
 The Secretary read Clause 6 of the report as follows: Moved by Aid. 
 
(jl 
 
 McAndrew, secondt-d by Aid. Hannalord, tliat a petition be presented to the 
 Parliament of Canada asking that all aalaries of offlclals employed under the 
 Dominion Government be made subject to be taxed by all municipalities In 
 the same manner as the salaries of other persons iu such municipalitifs. 
 and that such salaries be iilso made liable to attachment for debt to the 
 same extent as the salaries of other persons. 
 
 On moti(m Clause 6 of the report was adopted as read. 
 
 i 
 
 The Secretary read Clause 7 of the report jis follows: 
 
 m 
 
 July 16. 1897. 
 
 J. Blevins. Esq.. City Clerk Toronto. 
 
 Dear Sir— I am now instructed to reply to your circular of May 25th, 
 1897, and to say that the Council favor a Convention re Tax Exemptions, 
 provided the exemptions should not be evaded by municipalities who have 
 some pet scheme to bolster up. And if the exemptions are done away with 
 no special legislation should be parsed to favor any locality. 
 
 t 
 
 '" ' Yours very truly, 
 
 ' '• " John Hogg." 
 
 The Secretary— The note written on the face of this is that the last 
 clause of this communication Is recommended for consideration. The last 
 clause is " if the exemptions are done away with no special legislation should 
 be passed to favor any locality." 
 
 On motion the last section of Cliiuse 7 was adopted as read. • 
 
 The Secretary read Clause 8 of the report as follows: Moved by Aid. John 
 Doyle, Belleville, seconded by Mayor J. W. Johnson. Belleville, That in the 
 opinion of this Conv(>nlion the decisions of the Court of Appeals against 
 Assessment should be final, except in matters involving a question of law. 
 
 The Secretary — 'This is not recommended for consideration by the Com- 
 mittee on Resolutions. 
 
 Aid. Doyle, Belleville — That does not prevent it from being discussed. 
 
 Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton, moved, seconded by Mayor Wright of St. 
 Thomas, That the action of the Committee on Resolutions in not recom- 
 mending Clause 8 for the consideration of the Convention be approved of. 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville — You should give us the privilege of stating 
 the reason why we think there should be no appeal to a Judge on matters 
 
62 
 
 of fact in connection with an assessment. We have Buffered in Belleville 
 on that account, and for that reason we desire to get an expression of 
 opinion. 
 
 The Chairman— If this resolution is seconded it is properly before the 
 Convention. 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— The reason why we thought it was wise 
 that the present system of appeal from the Court of Revision t(» a Judge 
 was good was because sometimes appeals are made and they are successful. 
 It would be better to have the law amended, and have the Judge as a per- 
 son to whom a final appeal could be made than to have the final place of 
 appeal taken away, and to have it left to the Court of Revision alone. 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London— The Convention a few moments ago decided that 
 we should deal with tax exemptions only, I believe we have within that 
 scope as much as we will accomplish to-day. There are many things that 
 might be said with regard to this, but I would sue^'-st that the mover of 
 that resolution withdraw it for the time being. There will be another ses- 
 sion of this Convention, and If the inover is not here somebody else will be 
 who can see that it is brought up. and the matter can be dealt with. There 
 is a great deal in it. 
 
 Aid. Doyle. Belleville — I withdraw the motion for the time being. 
 
 The Chairman read Clause No. 9 of the report as follows: 
 
 Moved by F. Marx, (vf Chatham, seconded by Councillor J. L. McCullOch. 
 of East Toronto, that Cause 42 of chap. 48, of 55 Vict, be amended so as to 
 make it compulsory for assessors to demand from every person assessable 
 for real or personal property a statement in writing signed by such person 
 (or by his agent, if the person himself is absent), containing the particulars 
 as required by said clause. 
 
 The Chairman — This clause of the report is not recommended for con- 
 sideration. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham— Cannot that be considered? 
 
 The Chairman— You can move that the action of the Committee be or 
 be not approved of in not recommending it for consideration. 
 
 Is this a matter in regard to exemptions? 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham— No. I withdraw it. 
 
08 
 
 The Chairman read Clause No. U) of thi« report as follows: 
 
 Moved by F. Marx. Chatham, seconded by .1. L. McCulloch, East To- 
 ronto, that the following words be added to clause 0, chap. 48, 55 Victorlu 
 (1892). viz.: "Except taxation on income, which shall be graded at the op- 
 tion of the Councils of Municipalities." 
 
 The Chairman— This clause is not recommended by the Committee for 
 consideration. 
 
 The Chairman read Clauses Nos. 11, 12. and 13, respectively. «as follows: 
 
 (No. 11) 
 
 Henry George Club (39 King Street West), 
 
 Toronto, August 26th. 
 
 Dear Mr Mayor: Re Municipal Tax Convention. 
 
 « 
 
 Being under the impression that a hearing would not be permitted to 
 others than duly appointed delegates to Convention, the Henry George 
 Club refrained from asking that its representative be allowed to address 
 the delegates. As the Sub-Committee in charge have decided to ask Con- 
 vention to hear outsiders, in behalf of the H. G. Club I am requested to ask 
 that the privilege of a hearing be permitted the writer, who has been dele- 
 gated to appear as their representative. 
 
 I remain respectfully yours, 
 
 " Geo. J. Hryan." 
 
 (No. 12) 
 
 John Blovlns. Esq., 
 
 City Clerk, Toronto. 
 
 North Bay, .July i2th, 1897. 
 
 -i 
 
 Dear Sir. — Your letter re Exemption of Taxation was presented to Coun- 
 cil on the 9th inst., and I was instructed by resolurion to answer you that 
 the Council approve of your efforts to secure amendments to the Statute 
 doin?: away with tax exemptions, and are sorry they cannot send represen- 
 tatives to the Convention as requested. 
 
 Yours respectfully, 
 
 M. N. Flannery, City Clerk. 
 
64 
 
 (No. 13) 
 
 John Blevins. Esq., 
 
 City Clerk, Toronto. 
 
 Lindsay, Out., August, 23, liS97. 
 
 Dcr.r Sir.— Mysflf and Councillor Sootheran expect to attend tlic " Muni- 
 cipal Convention " on 9th and 10th proximo. If consistent with legulationa 
 I would like to introduce a proposition to organize an " Annual Conven- 
 tion " of Municipal Councillors similar to Boards of School Trustees, etc. 
 Ti'U to fifteen minutes will be ample time. Awaiting reply, I am, 
 
 Yours truly, 
 
 Mayor of Lind.say. 
 
 The Chairman read Clause No. 14 of the report as follows: 
 
 Single Tax Association. 
 
 Toronto, 6th April, 1897. 
 To hit Worship the Mayor, 
 
 City of Toronto. 
 
 Dear Sir: Re T;vx Exemptions. 
 
 On behalf of the Single Tax Association, I take the liberty of asking 
 some questions respecting the Convention which has been suggested by the 
 Council of this City. 
 
 The farmer is not tnxed on his crop or his live stock. Is there any in- 
 tention to ask for the abolition of this so-called exemption? 
 
 There is no assessment of household furniture, clothing, paintings, 
 books, etc. Is it proposed to aholish this exemption? 
 
 By sub-section 14, grain held for shipment or sale is exempt. Will this 
 be noticed? 
 
 Then again, do you think there will be any likelihood that any ob.iec- 
 tion will be riised to the exemption of ^700 from incomes? If a man puts 
 his capital in buildings or goods then he is taxed on the capital value; but if 
 he invests in ships or stocks then he is taxed only on the income; has any 
 proposal been mnde to remove this anomaly 
 
 There is an exemption for the merchant to the amount of his debts; but 
 the farmer whose farm is mortgaged to the hilt is taxed to the full. Will 
 any notice be taken of this? 
 
65 
 
 So far as churches are concerned, there is an essential (Uffercnce be- 
 tween the value of the land and the value of the building. Tht« first v.-iluR 
 is caused by the community, while Uiat of the building is due to the con- 
 gregation who paid for it. That churches should pay taxes on the value 
 of the land is all right, but that they should be assessed on the building is 
 quite unjust. Will any attention be paid to this difference? 
 
 The land in the centre of Toronto is worth from ten to thirty or forty 
 thousand dollars per acre yearly. Let any man collect this rental tor the 
 bare fand and he will be under no necessity to put forth the slightest exer- 
 tion to do the first act for the maintenance of government. He is in reality 
 wholly exempt from taxation. Has any notice been taken of this, the 
 greatest of all exemptions, and will any move be made tc get is abolished? 
 
 I have the honor to be, Sir, 
 
 Your obedient servant, 
 
 " A. C. Thompson," 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 The Chairman — Clause No. 14 is not recommended by the Cotumittee 
 on Resolutions for consideration, as the matter therein is covered by other 
 resolutions. 
 
 Mayor Elliott, Brantford, moved, seconded by Mayor Wright, of St. 
 Thomas, that the first report of the Committee on Resolutions as amendec^ 
 by this Convention be adopted. 
 
 Mayor Halsted, Mount Forest—With your permission 1 would move, 
 seconded by Mayor Quinlan, of Port Hope, in amendment, that the word 
 " Provincial " be Included in that section of the report recommending the 
 abolishment of exemptions with regard to Government employees, and that 
 the report as so amended be adopted. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx. Chatham—Where in the Statute is the salary ol Federal 
 officers so exempted? 
 
 The Secretary— It is claimed to be in the British North America Act.^ 
 
 '■- The Chairman-The oucdtion as to where they are exempted and all 
 that does not afteot the consideration of *h\?. question. The fact remains 
 that they are practically exempted, whether legally or Illegally. 
 
 The Chairman stated the amendment. 
 
 Aid. Emory. Hamilton— I do not want this convention to show any 
 
 M 
 
66 
 
 ignorance on these questions, and I understand from some of the delegates 
 that Provincial civil servants a. already taxed, and are already amenabli' 
 to the law for the payment of their debts. If that is the case, why put the 
 word " Provincial " in here. 
 
 Mayor Halsted, Mount Forest — If that is the case, I will be only too glad 
 to withdraw it. 
 
 The Chairman — I will ascertain as a matter of fact whether that is the 
 case, and if it is, then the amendment is not necessary and need not be 
 adopted by this Convention. / ■' . ' 
 
 The Chairman put the motion to adopt the report as amended which, 
 on a vote having been taken, was declared carried. 
 
 Aid. McAndrews, Hamilton — I move, seconded by Alderman Hanna- 
 ford, that the Municipal Act be so amended as to tax mercantile goods 
 wherever found and under every condition. 
 
 Moved by Aid. Marx, Chatham, seconded by Councillor Laughton, To- 
 ronto Junction, that section 7 of sub-section 3, of the Consolidated Assess- 
 ment Act be abolished and erased from the Statutes, which reads as follows: 
 
 " Every place of worship and land used in connection therewith, church- 
 yard or burying ground. Provided, however, that land on which a place 
 of worship is erected, and land used in connection with a place of worship, 
 shall be liable to be assessed in the same way, and to the same extent as 
 other land, for local improvements hereafter made or to be made." 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I find that my own name is both on the C n- 
 mittee on Resolutions and the Special Committee for the purpose of report- 
 ing on the advisability of holding an Annual Convention. Now, we aie 
 both going to meet and I think it would be well that my name should be 
 taken oft the Special Committee, and some other one substituted for me. , 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— I would suggest that the Mayor of Hamilton 
 go on that Special Committee. 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London— There is this point to be considered, that some 
 person should be on that Committee who has the original idea of the Con- 
 vention at his fingers' ends, and as it emanates from Toronto, it should be 
 a Toronto man. 
 
 The Chairman— Put Aid. Leslie on. ' 
 
 \ I 
 
G7 
 
 
 Mayor Colquhoun. Hamilton — I think the suggestion made by Aid. Par- 
 nell is a good one, that those who are cognizant of the work that has been 
 done should be on that Committee. I should be very happy to act, buf the 
 suggestion he has made is a good one. 
 
 ,. Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — Aid. Leslie can go on to the Committee on Resolu- 
 tions, and I will stop on the Special Committee, or you can allow the Mayor 
 of Hamilton to take my place on the Committee on Resolutions. 
 
 '•: The Chairman— Is that the wish of the Convention, that Aid. Leslie be 
 appointed on that Committee. 
 
 : Cries of " Carried, carried." ■ '* 
 
 Aid. Kelvey, Kingston — I find I am in the same position as Aid. Car- 
 lyle, and I would suggest Mayor Skinner's name in place of mine on the 
 Special Committee. 
 
 
 By consent of the Convention, Mayor Skinner's name was substituted 
 for Aid. McKelvey's on the Special Committee. 
 
 On motion of Aid. McAndrew the Convention adjourned to meet at 2 
 o'clock p.m. , 
 
 AFTERNOON SESSION. 
 
 2 o'clock p.m. 
 
 The Chairman called th(> Ctrnvt-ntion to order, and said, I have in my 
 hand the report of the Special Committee, which Is the next order of busi- 
 ness, and which I will ask the Secretary to read. ; ■ - 
 
 The Secretary read the report as follows: 
 
 The Special Committee appointed to consider the resolution of Mayor 
 Smyth, of Lindsay, re the organization of an Annual Municipal Conference, 
 begs leave to report as follows: 
 
 Resolved— .- - . 
 
 I. That the name of the proposed Annual Convention shall be, "The 
 Annual Conventhm of Representatives from the Municipalities of Ontario." 
 
 IT. That there shall be a President. Vice-President and Secretary. 
 
 III. That there ..^'.it ho an Executive Committee composed of the Presto 
 
m 
 
 dent, Vice-President and five members, to be elected at the close of the 
 Convention ench year, who shall hold office until the conclusion of the pro- 
 ceedings ot the following meeting. ■■/:■. ; vt-^-f^.vJ- t;? >- ' ^ '• <; ' 'ii 
 
 IV. That ill! matters to be submitted at any Convention must be in the 
 hands ol the Secretary not less than one month before the annual meeting. 
 
 In other matters. Parliamentary procedure shall govern. - ,<■ :; 
 
 V. That Toronto be selected as the place of holding the annual 
 m(>etings. .. • 
 
 VI. That the time of meeting be the second week of tBe session of the 
 Ontario Legislature. 
 
 (Sd.) J. W. JOHNSON, 
 
 Cfiairman 
 
 Toronto. September 10. 1897. , 
 
 On motion the report was received. 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville— I move that the report be adopted. 
 
 Aid. Finlay. Hamilton — I do not think the annual meeting should be 
 continually held in Toronto, although the Legislative Assembly meet here; 
 I think the meeting place for this assembly should be distributed from one 
 city to another throughout the Province, and, if there are any legislative 
 matters to be brought by a Ccmimittee before the Legislattire, the Commit- 
 tee can go to Toronto and place the matter before the Legislature. I think 
 it would be better in the interests of this association to have the meetings 
 at different points throughout Ontario. I move an amendment to that effert. 
 
 Moved by Aid. Finlay, Hamilton, seconded by Aid. McAndrew. Hamil- 
 ton, that the annual meeting place be decided before the close of each 
 meeiting. 
 
 Mayor Johnson, B«'lleville — It is only fair to state that the prevailing 
 opinicm of the Committee was that it would be desirable to have its repre- 
 sentation as large as possible each year, and it was felt by the Committee 
 that could only be accomplished by making Toronto the meeting place; that 
 far more delegates would be likely to come to Toronto than to gc to any 
 other place — not that we are particularly in love with Toronto, but purely 
 as a matter of convenience, and with the object of obtaining as large a 
 representation as possible of the various municipalities throughout the Pro- 
 vince. 
 
69 
 
 *' Aid. Keating, St. Catharines— I do not think I will be accused of trying 
 t(» favor Toronto, but I believe Toronto, as a place of meeting, will be more 
 acceptable to the great majority of the municipalities than any other place 
 that could be selected. 
 
 Aid. Finlay, Ham.ilton— I have no objection to Toronto being the annual 
 place of meeting, but I question very much whether this Convention has 
 any right to legislate iur any future Convention, and, even if we pass this 
 report, which says the annual meeting shall be heia in Toronto. I take it 
 the next Convention will have full power to say where they shall meet the 
 following year. The next exception I take is in regard to the time of the 
 meeting; I think it would be preferable to meet two weeks prior to the con- 
 vening of the Legislative Assembly, and decide upon the different points 
 we desire to bring before the Legislature and appoint a Committee to wait 
 upon that body when in session. If we wait until two weeks after they are 
 in session perhaps we may be too late, because, as you all know, there is 
 a certain time limit when matters of new business can be pre.sented to the 
 Legislature. 
 
 Aid. Parnell. London — In regard to the first point raised by my friend 
 the delegate from Hamilton, I think there is no doubt we would have to 
 favor Toronto; in that regard there is this point to be considered, the dele- 
 gates will come from all over the Province, and Toronto is very much more 
 central for the large majority of the different delegates that would come 
 than any other place that could be named. Supposing we selected London 
 — and I would very much like to see this Convention in London — or Belle- 
 ville, the trouble would be you would decrease your representation by the 
 extra cost which would have to be borne by the different municipalities, 
 because, as you aw all well aware, municipalities are noi^ given to throwing 
 money away, as a rule, and especially for a deputation; and that being the 
 case, it is well to keep down the expense as low ns possible, and that can 
 only be done by meeting in one central place. 
 
 My friend from Hamilton also says we should meet two weeks prior to 
 the meeting of the Legislature. If there is any legislation or proposed 
 legislation to be presented to the Legislature, and we are meeting tvo weeks 
 after the session has commenced, we would then be on the spot here 
 and would save expense; and, therefore, in my opinion, the time I'xcd 
 by the report for our meeting is the proper time, and I strongly urpe 
 the adoption of that report, first, on account of the saving of expense, the 
 probability of getting a larger representation in Toronto than elsewhere, 
 and the ease of access to the City of Toronto as compared with other points. 
 We should accept this report, as I believe it would be in the general inter- 
 ests of the movement which we have in hand. 
 
70 
 
 Aid. McAnrlrew, Hamilton— The amendment does not say that Toronto 
 shall not be the meeting place; it merely provides that the meeting place 
 shall be choson annually, and you can Iceep on choosing Toronto year after 
 year, if you desire. It may be that Toronto may get tired of this Conven- 
 tion. Many of us may not be here next year, and in adopting this report 
 we may be legislating for another body of men, saying Toronto shall be 
 the meeting place for all time. The amendment merely provides that the 
 next meeting place shall be decided at each meeting. No doubt Toronto 
 is the proper meeting place, but that question should be settled annually. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx. Chatham — I heartily concur in the remarks of my frienci 
 from London, although I think Chatham would be the preferable place for 
 the annual meeting; Chatham is very centrally located. But Toronto should 
 be the meeting place because the Legislature meets here, and for that rea- 
 son Toronto is the best place for this Convention. I have much pleasure in 
 seconding the original motion. 
 
 The Chairman put the amendment which, on a vote having been taken, 
 was declared lost. 
 
 The Chairman put the motion to adopt the report which, on a vote hav- 
 ing been taken, was declared carried, and the veport adopted without 
 amendment. i . . , . ..■ 
 
 The Secretary read the second report of the Committee on Kesolutions! 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London, moved, seconded by Mayor Johnson, Belleville, 
 that the report be received. Carried. 
 
 On motion it was resolved that the report be discussed clause by clause. 
 
 The Chairman — This morning the question was raised with regard to 
 the salaries of the civil servants of the Province of Ontario, and in conse- 
 quence I consulted our City Solicitor's Department on the subject, and 
 learned that at the present time the civil servants of Ontario are assessed 
 as any other persons in regard to their salaries. I am also informed that 
 their salaries are not liable to garnishment for debt. This is not by any 
 special legislation on the part of either the Province of Ontario or the Do- 
 minion Government, but comers down to us from a very old Common Law 
 principle established in England for the protection, it is said, of the efflci- 
 ency of the civil service, by which It is established that the salaries of 
 civil servants »hall not be liisble to garnishment. The resc'ution on tTlat 
 subject should be amended »o as to ask for legislation rendering their sal- 
 aries liable for garnishnienr. and that will be done. 
 
71 
 
 That, I think, meets the situation. The salaries of the Federal offlceis 
 arc not subject to assessment, though they are subject to garnishment. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham- Did he tell you under what Statute the sal- 
 aries of Federal officers are not subject to taxation? 
 
 The Chairman— That is an old Common Tiaw decision which has been 
 in force for a very long time, and which has come down to us. - 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham— For the information of all of us, I have tried 
 to find out in Ottawa under what law the salaries of the Federal officers 
 are exempted, there is no such law except what you, Mr. Chaiiman, have 
 mentioned. Three years ago the City of Ottawa tried to assess tho salaries 
 of the Federal officers, and the Government pays to-day to the City of 
 Ottawa an amount in lieu of that. The law is not good law. and ii^deed if 
 it is brought up in Court it will be upset. The Federal civil servants should 
 be assessed. 
 
 The Chairman— You are beginning to discuss a matter which is not 
 before the chair. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham— No. I am only giving information to the Con- 
 vention. . ,j 
 
 The Chairman— The principle has been decided upon. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto— I do hope that the resolution that was held over 
 in the morning will be perfectly proper now, because the information that 
 you have given to this Convention leads to the conclusion that they are 
 exempt from taxation, ^rf; .' ■ 
 
 The Chairman — It was dealt with this morning; the only point was this, 
 that it was left to me to have it amended so as to include the Provincial 
 authorities if they were not already included; and I have said that they 
 are all already included in the matter of assefjsment, but they are not all 
 subject to garnishment. The resolution will be amended so as to aslc that 
 the salaries be rendered liable to garnishment. 
 
 Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton— That can be more readily got at by asking; 
 the Government to repeal that old clause. 
 
 The Chairman— It is a decision of the English Courts. 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville — You cannot repeal common law; you can 
 enact a law that will set aside common law. 
 
 
72 
 
 The Chalrm.'in — That, is the purport of the resolution. ,, -, 
 
 Aid. Leslie, Toronto— I submit this is not ji question you can take up. 
 beojiuse the Convention has. I think, decided to confine Itself to tax exemp- 
 tions, and this subject you are discussing now is merely as to the ";visteucL' 
 of a procedure of the Courts to recover a debt. We have decided to have 
 annual Conventions to be called " Municipal Conventions," at which we will 
 take up the question of assessment, tax exemptions and every other phase 
 of municipal government, and I submit that that is the proper time aiid 
 place to bring this question up. 
 
 The Chairnan— This matter has already been dealt with, I was only 
 making an explanation for the information of the delegates and It is not 
 subject to discussion. All this discussion is out of order. 
 
 The Secretary read Clauses 1 and 2 of the report of the Committee on 
 Resolutions; and. on motion, clause 1 was adopted as read. ..... 
 
 The Secretary read Clauses 3, 4 and 5 relative to Church exemptions. 
 
 The Chairman — You have several resolutions, some of which are much 
 more comprehensive Than the others; if the Convention were to adopt the 
 comprehensive ones it would include the others. I would suggest, tor the 
 expedition of matters, that you consider the most comprehensive one firct, 
 and if that is adopted, then you have the others that go before it and are 
 included in it. Woull that meet with your approval? 
 
 Aid. Leslie, Toronto — There is just this trouble, the comprehensi\e one 
 asks the Government to exempt churches, while No. li says this Convention 
 disapproves of church exemptions. ■ •' • ■ - ' •> '^';^;/.v 
 
 Aid. McKelvey. Kingston, moved, seconded by Mayor Smyth. Kingston, 
 that the more comprehensive resolution be taken up clause by clause, as 
 it takes up almost all the exemptions. "^ ^ ' - v ='^.rr^?i v 
 
 Aid. C.arlyle, Toronto — In any case, no matter what may be done with 
 Clause 5 you cannot ignore No. 3, you will have to deal with it, because it 
 is complete contradiction to No. 5. Why not take the resolutions as thi y 
 come from the Committee on Rest)lutions and deal with them? 
 
 I move that the resolutions be dealt with as they come from the C,>m- 
 mittee on Resolutions, and that each resolution be dealt with upon its own 
 merits. ■ '■ • 
 
 Aid. McKelvey, Kingston — That resolution might be proposed ac an 
 amendment to the first item it my resolution. 
 
78 
 
 i 
 
 Aid. Parnoll, London-The mnjority of the m.-mbers of this Convfiition 
 will be leaving to-night; this question is onr which takrs a very wide scope, 
 covers a gre:it deal of piound. as is evidenced by the resolution now b.-foro 
 the chair, and it does seem to me I hat we have accomplished considerable 
 at this Convention if we did nothing more. On account of the broad and 
 wide nature of the question of Church taxation, it is a question to my 
 mind whether it would not be advisable that this matter should be de- 
 ferred to the next session of this Convent it)n, so that it could be thoroughly 
 thought out and considered in all its bearings. You have a resolution, sir, 
 before the chair placing exemptions only to a limited extent, and you have 
 other resolutions dealing with the entire matter, and with the diversity 
 of opinion expressed and the shortness ol time at our disposal, it seems to 
 me we can hardly deal with them to-day. 
 
 j 
 Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls, seconds Aid. Carlyle's amendment. 
 
 The Chairman put the amerdment which, on a vote having been taken, 
 was declared carried. 
 
 The Secretary read Resolution No. 3. 
 
 Aid. Hannaford, Hamilton — There was considerable discussion yes- 
 terday, and as the time is drawing very near for this Convention to close 
 its session, I do not propose to enter upon any lengthy debate on the mat- 
 ter, especially as most of the members of the Convention present are pretty 
 well decided in their own minds as to how it should go. I merely wish to 
 say this, that there are churches whose members believe that churnii** 
 ought to pay their just quota of taxation, and 1 am proud to say that there 
 is a church in Toronto, and I do not know of one situated in any other 
 municipality, that does pay its quota of the taxation, and pays it annually, 
 and they pay it to the extent of a thousand dollars annually, and it is a 
 pretty influential body. I say that that shows us decidedly what are the 
 feelings of even the churches themselves. Although there is only one in 
 Toronto that is doing it, only one that is actually paying— and it has been 
 doing so for the past five or seven years — there are a number of others who 
 feel themselves just in the same direc;tion. I merely brought this resolu- 
 tion in to-day to take an expression of opinion from this Convention. I 
 move the adoption of clause 3 of the report. 
 
 J 
 
 Aid. Findlay, Hamilton— I might say, as seconder of this resolution, that 
 I think the majority of the churches situated in the municipality which I 
 represent are in favor of paying an annual tax; they have asserted their 
 willingness at all times to pay their just proportitm of the raxes of the 
 
74 
 
 City, and huve stated so nt their annual meetings; and 1 think that ilie 
 majority of the churches in the City of Hamilton to-day are willing to pay 
 their taxes, and consequently I strongly support this motion. 
 
 Mayor Smyth. Lindsay— Mr. Chairman, I am opposed to the taxation of . 
 churches. 1 think church property should be exempt, lor many reasons. 
 If you commence to assess church properties it militates against the erec- 
 tion of the costly edifices which are such ornaments to our cities and towns; 
 they give a moral element and tone to our towns. - ; 
 
 If you take our Christian bodies out of our community what sort of 
 state would we have in our community? 
 
 I think they should be exempted. They give employment to artisans 
 and others in their erection, and for that reason alone they should be en- 
 couraged. It was mentioned yesterday that they get light, police and flie 
 pro*"ction. They are worth all that, and more too. 
 
 Ex-Ald. Marx, Chatham — I wish to state that In the Municipality which 
 I have the honor to represent, the majority of our churches are in favor of 
 paying taxes; and the subject has been threshed out for the last four or 
 five years, and they have passed resolutions to that effect, and I was sent 
 here by the City of Chatham to present that idea, and I shall do it to the 
 best of my ability. I do not see why a church should be exempted merely 
 because it is a church. The churches share in the protection given to other 
 properties in the mimicipality and should bear their share of the cost. If 
 any one of us built a house which would be an ornament to the municipality 
 would it be reasonable on that ground to ask it to be exempted from taxa- 
 tion? I think you will agree with me that it wonld be most unreasonable. 
 
 Aid. Emory, Hamilton — I entirely dissent from the principle of taxing 
 our churches; and I think I have as good a backing in the City of Hamilton, 
 and around our Board, for the position I take as the Aldermen have who take 
 the opposite view. I think I know as much about what the church people 
 of Hamilton want for themselves as any of the Aldermen around our alder- 
 manic board, for I do not think .any of them attend the churches more 
 regularly than I do myself. I cannot for the life of me see how we would 
 be benefited by taxing the churches; it is merely taking money out of one 
 pocket and putting it into the other, I know there is the argument— I have 
 had to face it before— tha,t Aid. Hannaford spoke of yesterday, that the 
 number of persons who do not go to church is greater than the number of 
 those who do go. But if the churches were assessed they would have to 
 pay taxes for those who do not attend as well as for those who do. I claim 
 
 W 
 
75 
 
 that our churches have an elevating influence In our CDmmunity, and are 
 worth infinitely more to the community than the loss the community sus- 
 tains when It exempts them from any amount of taxation. 
 
 You cannot form any estimate of what a community would be without 
 these churches, unless you leave a community without them for a generation 
 or two generations. Civilization alone will not elevate the moral tone of the 
 community. No community was ever more civilized than the ancient 
 Grecian people, and no people was ever more corrupt in their moral lives. A 
 man may not believe In a church, but he believes in a Christian community, 
 and reaps the benefit by living in that community, and I contend he should 
 pay something for that benefit, and it does not cost him very much; it 
 wouldn't cost him very much more or very much less if a tax were put upon 
 the churches. There is a great deal of loose talk about churches being no 
 good, and tnat churches are not accomplishing the work they ought to 
 accomplish. But we are In a Christian community, we live In a Christian land, 
 a land that honors the Bible under the gracious reign of Queen Victoria, 
 who says the bulwark of English liberty is the Bible. Let us stand by our 
 guns and don't let us go into anarchistic, socialistic, or any other kind of 
 " Istic " like idea of taxing those elements in our community that make for 
 the moral welfare of every member of the community — : ' 
 
 Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound— I would just say that I am amazed at 
 the remarks of the gentleman who has just sat down in connection with the 
 taxation of churches. I don't know about the gentleman here representing 
 the church; he is evidently representing some sentiment that exists in his 
 city, and I suppose it would be for interested parties. The clergymen in 
 connection with our different denominations are not exempt. We commence 
 at the root of the matter, we commence at the men who give us the gospel, 
 and we tax their salaries. I think we tax them over a certain amount; I 
 think they are only exempt to a certain extent; and that we derive taxes 
 
 : from balance. There Is a church I would mention whose members I imagine 
 know what they are doing, in the town in which I live, pays its taxes as 
 
 ' any other person pays theirs, although they are not called upon to do it, but 
 do it as a matter of principle. If you can establish that a community can 
 be benefited by an institution that refuses to pay its proper dues then 1 am 
 very much surprised at it indeed. I think when a church comes forward 
 and pays its obligations, or what it considers its just dues to the munici- 
 pality In which It is placed it is a great credit to that church: and to my 
 mind has a greater effect in elevating religion, and placing the church 
 element in a better condition in the community than any argument that my 
 friend from Hamilton has advanced this afternoon. If you admit that prin- 
 ciple as to churches we may go on and carry it to various other things. a.nd 
 
 '\ 
 
 iJ\ 
 
 m 
 
 111 
 
 m 
 
 Q 
 
 «t 
 
 
 m 
 
ro 
 
 the churches may take up any quantity ol land or property and it must be 
 exempt. And I say ii It is right to exempt |5,000 probably you will say it is 
 right, because it is a Christian organization or n church, to exempt 110.000 
 worth of land or 10.000 acres of land? The principle is wrong and the 
 original resolution introduced by Aid. Carlyle is right. I don't care whether 
 it is a church, a school, or a Parliament building, I claim they all ought to 
 pay their taxes the same as anybody else. And in municipal affairs in the 
 city in which the gentleman who has spoken in favor of church exemptions 
 lives, he must know thai in the water works department the city pays its 
 proportion, pays its proper taxes for the water which it obtains from that 
 department, and that the money pa.id therefor goes to the general exchequer. 
 We have our water works department, the corporation levy an assessment 
 to pay for the watering of the streets, to pay the debenture indebtedness, 
 to pay the inteest on these debi-nturcs, and that passes into the general fund. 
 We raise it by taking it out of the oiie pocket and putting it Into the other. 
 1 don't think there is any argument on the fact that it is taking money out 
 of the one and putting it into the other. It is a true principle, and I claim 
 churches ought to be taxed and everything else of that nature. • I do not care 
 whether it is a poor house or church or Parliament building, they have a 
 perfect right to pay their taxes on the value of their property. 
 
 institu 
 
 grount 
 
 not a 
 
 what 
 
 benevc 
 
 these 
 
 proves 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton — Aid. Emory says that anything that is 
 elevating should not pay taxes. But I submit that anything that is elevating 
 should pay its way. That is in direct opposition to what Aid. Emory says; 
 I say that anything that is elevating should pay its way; every man in a. 
 community who pays one hundred cents on the dollar and endeavors to do 
 right i,s ;i <f(M)(l litizeii, and a churcli, if it is iloiiig ri<rlit autl lixing a.s an 
 exemple to the citizens to do good, should pay its way and not psk any 
 charitj . As to the argument of good to the community I ha\ e a few words 
 to say. I want to say that 1 go to church considerably but I am not growing 
 wings, I am not fit to fly away. I am a member of a church, but I am net 
 afraid, at least, to attack the present system of <,'xempting churches. I have 
 an extract in my hand and I will read it very plainly — it is very short— it 
 will cover more than all the speeches that any of the members in this organi- 
 zation could make in favor of taxing churches. It starts off with the argu- 
 ment that it is out of the hands of those who are opposed to taxing 
 churches, that anything that is good for the community should be taxed. 
 ThlF says: , li 
 
 " But the argument is not a convincing one. If it is a sound argument, 
 then it will have to be admitted that every institution which is a power for 
 good in the community should be exempted from taxation. The Y.M.C.A., th« 
 charitable institutions, St. Joseph's Hospital, every private educational 
 
 \\ 
 
,1 
 
 7 7 
 
 infitJtufion, should be exempt. And why not the cricket nnd basi'bnll 
 grounds, tho bowling greens, the 8k;iting and curling rinks too? Are they 
 not all nifanb of doing good, physical good, to those who use tham? And 
 what about the buildings occupied wholly or partiiilly by fraternal :iml 
 bi'ncvoleni societiis which exist for the purpose of doing good? Why ciliould 
 these be taxed and churches go untaxed? Clearly the argument is lealvy. It 
 proves to much.- 
 
 " Another argument in favor of Ihe exemption of church property from 
 taxation is that the great majority of the taxpayers are church members or 
 adherents, and would have to bear the burden of the new tax»'S in addl'ion 
 to those they already pay? But if church property were taxed the general 
 tax rate could Ix' lowered, and while the church-going taxpayer would have 
 to con'tribute more towards the funds of his church, he would save by the 
 lowering of the rate on his property. 
 
 " Looked at from the standpoint of strict justice, the exemption of church 
 property Is wrong, because it compels people who don't use churches lo 
 contribute to the support of churches against their will. They pay higher 
 taxes than they would have to pay 'f church-going fellow citizens did 
 not enjoy the privilege of holding and using untaxed property. These 
 people may be very wrong in neglecting the privilege of attending church. 
 There was a time in England when people who didn't go to church were fined 
 for staying away. But in these days every man has a legal right to stay 
 away from church if he wants to; yet the law which protects him in that 
 rig'it also compels him to contribute to the support of the churches, which IS 
 an Indirect way of fining him for not taking advantage of th*^ ' means of 
 grace.' 
 
 " Church exemption is a survival of the ancient alliance between chur h 
 and state. That allowance has always been an unholy one, the source of a 
 great host of unjust laws and even crimes. There is a growing feeling in 
 this province that the exemption of church property is unjust and inex- 
 pedient and contrary to the spirit of the times." : L ,, . ^..ii v : , ; , ^i- 
 
 This Is an editorial from one of the Hamilton daily newspapers ; it 
 proves conclusively to my mind that the churches should pay taxes. ' 
 
 Mayor Skinner, Kingston — I think t'lat article which has been read is 
 very able in some respects, and is a very good reason why this resolution 
 should be defeated. I am sure that all the delegates who .are here to-day 
 felt as that was being read that they objected to the sentiments contained 
 in every paragraph of it. I believe In the stalwart remarks made by Aid. 
 Emory upon that subject. With regard to the remarks of the Mayor of 
 
 I 
 
 ■U 
 
78 
 
 Owen Sound, I still contond thai it is paying money out of one pocket into 
 the other, and it is quite unlike the case of a corporation taking taxes from 
 water consumors or any particular class in a city. Of course, in every city 
 the peoplo who pay the wator taxes are a section of the community or a 
 part of the city, but I am very thankful to say in a Christian community and 
 in the eye of the law every citizen is a Christian, and the fact that he 3oes 
 not attend church is no reason in the world why the churches should he 
 taxed. When our laws are founded (which I trust shall never be) upon 
 Atheism and not Christianity it will be quite time enough to even consider 
 the question of taxing churches. I quite agree that the very large quantity 
 of lands which were formerly exempt from taxation, which belonged to the 
 churches and which are now taxed, shouM be taxed, but I think the churches 
 themselves and the land upon which they actually stand should be exempt 
 as is now provided for in the statute. I think there is very little to complain 
 of even by those who are strongly in favor of the removal of tax exemptions 
 in this respect, and I think the very vast majority of the citizens of xTlis 
 Province simply regard it in that way. It was because there was so much 
 exemption and so much advantage given to particular branches of the church 
 that the law was changed to read as it does now. I believe that this Con- 
 vention will very strongly put its foot down upon making any greater 
 restriction than is now provided for by the statute. I cannot think of any- 
 thing further at this moment. I would like to take up, paragraph by para- 
 graph, the argument as printed in that extract from that Hamilton paper; 
 T think that, in itself, is quite enough to defeat this resolution almost iin- 
 animously. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — If there was nothing else than the fact that I 
 believe the influence of this Convention will have some weight on the mind 
 of his Worship the Mayor of Kingston, if there was no other thing achieved 
 than that, 1 think there would be something to rejoice in, because the 
 worthy Mayor from the Limestone City is apparently in favor of taxing'^'the 
 churches, he only wants to give them a partial exemption; now I have no 
 doubt, if this Convention is continued year after year, by and by we shall 
 have the Mayor of Kingston with us. and we will rejoice. We have heard 
 about the influence of the churches and the effect the taxing of them would 
 have, but my contention is that nothing can have an elevating Influence if 
 it doe.- not pay its just sK'are of the burdens laid upon \hc eommunity, and 
 I contend to-day that the fact of their not paying their just shaie of the 
 municipal burdens of the community in which they are placed detracts from 
 Ihelr influence. Then again, there is another aspect of this case, the injustice 
 to the churches themselves. Take the case of a large wealthy congregation, 
 and compare the extent of their exemption with that of a poor congregation 
 
 \ 
 
"9 
 
 which has only, it may be a frame building to worship in. while the other 
 P'.'ople have their large stone building with all the decorations that ingpnuily 
 can devise, perhaps running the value up to seventy or eighty thousand 
 dollars which is all exempt; while the other church building is exempt (»nly 
 to the extent ol a tew hundred dollars; that, iu itselt, is an injustice. 
 
 Every member of this Convention Itnows exactly where I stand, 
 contend there should be no exemption. 
 
 1 
 
 ;Mi;i-„ 
 
 Mayor Halsted, Mount Forest — Th(> cities suffer more from exemptions 
 than the rural districts. In our town we have not vt>ry much to complain of 
 in th<' way of exemptions. At the same time I believe if it was left to ;i vot« 
 of the people that attend church in Mount Fcu'est. taking all the churches. 
 and speaking for the men who pay for the support of these churches, they 
 would vote to do away with exemptions. I believe the sense of the com- 
 munity is in favor of everything paying its own way. A church is a luxury. 
 I go to church because 1 leel th,at the church is a benefit to the community, 
 and 1 pay just as much as anybody towards the support of my church, but 
 at the same time 1 do not want to see the church I go to receive any favors 
 from the community as a whole. I say, let them pay their way the same as 
 I pay my way; and in the same way I say every business and every college 
 ought to pay its way; let every tub stand on its own bottom. If I go to a 
 church I would like to see my minister pay taxes; T would rather see him 
 pay the same rate when h«' is travelling on the railways than to get half 
 fare because he wears a white choker. Let us all pay; I believe it has a good 
 wholesome effect upim the community, and we will he elevating them by 
 making them pay their way, and it will have a much more elevating effect 
 on those who don't go to church. We should say we don't want any favor.-i 
 from anyone; we support that church because it is the right thing Lo do. I 
 believe if it was left to the church people of Ontario they wo ild ho in favor 
 of abolishing exemptions. 
 
 Mayor Barnes. Smith's Falls — I love the institution of God's cause, and 
 I love the church; I am a member of the church and I try to do all I can to 
 assist the church in its work. I believe it is my duty to do so. And I try 
 to live up to my profession day by day. but I do not believe in the exemption 
 of any building or in the exemption of churches, colleges, or of any of those 
 institutions that we have on the list. Notwithstanding that I am opposed 
 to church exemptions I believe in the influence of the church, and I believe 
 that the outside people of the world get as much benefit out of the church ns 
 those who are actual church memitrs lo "'•om the protection and influence 
 of the church, but at the same time I believe the church would have greater 
 Influence provided she took the proper stand and paid taxes ou her property. 
 
 
 ■1 
 
 m^ 
 m 
 
80 
 
 paid her way as she went the same as any other individual. I have no sym- 
 pathy with the idea that because you belong to a Chi'istian church you should 
 be a pauper on any municipal corporation; neither should a minister who 
 receives a salary be a pauper on any railroad or any transportation company 
 or anything of that kind. Christianity, of all institutiims in the wor.d, oughi 
 to be an honest Institut'nn willing to pay its way and meet things on a 
 business basis. If the , ■ ches were run on business principles it would bo 
 better for them. 
 
 Councillor McCuUough, East Toronto— I think I seconded a resolution 
 for a limited exemption in the fear that this main motion wontun't carry, 
 but 1 am heartily in sympathy with the main motion; I would like to see tiie 
 broad principle laid down that all church property should be taxed. The last 
 speaker has said that he is a member oi a church;! Suppose almost everybody 
 here is a member of a church, by the gentlemanly way in which we uil talk, 
 nt any rate we have been to church some day or other or to Sunday School, 
 and I would just say here that the whole principle involved has been settled 
 over eighteen centuries ago by the great Master of the Church who sent 
 his servant P«'ter down to the sea to catch a fish, and from that fisliithey took 
 a coin wherewith to pay their taxes; and I think if we have to go into his- 
 tory and get a reason lor assessing and taxing the church we have got the 
 reason and authority there at the fountain head, for there the lounder of 
 the Christian religion and his followers paid their taxes and were not under 
 obligation to the state in any way. 
 
 I 
 Why should we not follow in the line of that example? 
 
 I am just as much in favor of a church as any one here; and I would do 
 anything for a church on principle, and I say that I am not violating that 
 principle in any way by standing out here £lnd voting and assisting to take 
 off the shackles on church property and let it stand on a basis which is per- 
 fectly firm and broad enough to withstand exemption or non-exemption. 
 
 The churches do not exist merely because they are exempt, but they will 
 exist after they are tax(>d and after they are taxed they will, in my opinion, 
 do m(»re good. 
 
 Aid. McKelvey, Kingston— 1 am one of the representatives of the great 
 I.lmestone City of Kingston.a city that hm turned out the greatest statesman 
 that Canada ever saw, and I am here to say that the people of Kingston 
 lire not in favor of taxing churches, and I want to tell you why. In the first 
 place I look upim churches as great educators, not only educators in the 
 original acceptation of the term, but they are educators in morals and in 
 
 i I 
 
81 
 
 religion, and that is the reason why I say we shouldn't put n tax on insti- 
 tutions ot that kind. 
 
 It has been said here that the rich men spend their money in putting up 
 b(>autiful and costly edifice:^, while others are satisfied to worship in frame 
 structures of very little ^value. Some of our people think they are doing a 
 aervice to the Creator of the universe by spending their mcmety in putting 
 up beautiful edifices to His glory. I respect every man's opinion, and I thin!^ 
 we ought to respect every man s opinion in that respect. I see difficulties in 
 the way of assessing churches equitably; if a number of people put $100,000 
 into a beautiful church how are you going to assess that church for 
 $100,000? It is not worth that, and it cannot possibly be assessed for that. 
 I say allow people to put up he; utiful churches. It is an old saying, 
 and I believe a true one, that a thin;--; of l)eauty is a joy for- 
 ever, and it is said that the poor people don't go to those 
 churches. But those ch'irches are free to everybody, and the poorest man 
 in the country can go iiito the most beautiful of church edifices we have got 
 and be just as welc(;me as he will be in his own pine church. I am speak- 
 ing of Kingstoi^; that is the way we do in Kingston; our churches are all 
 free, and I hop<' there is not a city in the Province in which the churclies 
 are not free; if there is a place where they are not free then I say they should 
 be free. It is said here we shouldn't compel all church people to contribute 
 in this respect towards education. Why do we compel people to pay towards 
 our public schools? What is the difference? You are educating the people 
 in religious things in the ore and in the other you are educating them to 
 enable them go' through the different walks of life. It is just as necessary 
 that a mon should have a religious training as that he should have a com- 
 mercial training or any other training. 
 
 Upon principle I am opposed to taxing anything that adds to the moral 
 and religious well being of the community. 
 
 Aid. Keating, St. Catharines — I believe that the exemption of the church 
 property and some other properti(>s is based on very s^ound principles. We 
 may belong to ditl'eient denoiiiiii.itions, l)iit I itelieve there aru very few- 
 people in the Province of Ontario that do not believe in the existence of a 
 Creator who made the Universe; and if that is so, and if there is any place 
 put up for His honor, to pay homage to him. I do not think it ought to be 
 taxed. There are several ways of paying homage to the Creator; in the 
 first place there are churches for the purpoRe of praise and honor, and thfn 
 there are orphan asylums and hospitals and places of that kind where his 
 poor lire taken care of. I believe any spot of ground that is devoted to such 
 
R'2 
 
 a purpose by people who contribute voluntnrily townrds that purpose, no 
 matter what denomination, should be exempt from taxation. 
 
 Mayor Yelland, Pelerboro' — I havo no reason to say anything more than 
 has been said. I feel this way. when the thing has been well talked up it is 
 not necessary for me to say something that somebody else has aln'ady said, 
 and I do nol think I should have risen this time had it not been that some 
 of our brethren here rise and C(md«'mn the church and say it is not honest. 
 I do n<it want a slur like that thrown upon the church, for the church is 
 honest when it pays what is demanded of it. The Government does not 
 ask pay of the churches, therefore these gentlemen have no business to rise 
 and condemn the church and say that it is not honest. I expect the church 
 pays its honest debts just as much as these gentlemen do, or any other 
 gentlemen upon this floor, and I rise to say that I think they are decidedly 
 wrong in trying to throw this slur upon the church, of not being honest. I 
 feel like th.: two gentlemen who h,a.ve l.Tst spoken; I feel fhat I must ex- 
 press myself that I ;im not in favor of taxing the churches. I believe we all 
 get good from the church. If we do not we ought to. These gentlemen who 
 do not go to church and who say they should not be taxed because they do 
 not go, I say. would be better if they did go. There is no doubt about that. 
 And they have no right to complain if they do not go because they have the 
 privilege of going and getting the benefit of it as we have. I say that they 
 get the benefit of it by the example of those that do go; and a great many 
 of these gentlemen, if they would take the example from those that do go, 
 would be a great deal better men than they are. I claim that the church is 
 a light in this world to guide the people through it, and I think as these 
 gentlemen have said we get good from the church, and therefore I say we 
 should exempt them. , 
 
 Mayor Thompson. Owen Sound — Who made the statement that the 
 churches were dishonest? 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville — I think it is wise for this Convention, before 
 it adjourns, to discuss this matter calmly as it has been doing. We have 
 got down now to a subject that we will all be ouestioned about when we 
 go home, and I believe it is a subject that every man here should be on 
 record upon, and that is the reason why I want to take up a few minutes of 
 the time and give you my views. 
 
 It was stated here by my friend opposite that the church was a luxury. 
 T do not think it is, because 1 believe the worship of the Almighty is nol a 
 luxury, but something inherent as a diify tn the mind of every right thinking 
 m,an; and those churches give us the opportunity of declaring publicly that 
 
83 
 
 we art" engnged in the Almighty's worship when wo go into that church. I 
 venture to say that every man in this room, and almost every man thai you 
 can conceive of wuo belongs To a Christian church, has inadf some siicrittce 
 in order to erect the building he worships in. Very 'likely many of us here 
 have gone deeply into our pockets, and we have gone upon notes that are 
 under discount at the bank, and upon mortgages, in order that we might 
 show by our example that we are in favor of establishing places for the 
 worship of the Almighty. 
 
 I belit ve the worship of the Almighty as carried on by our churches is 
 not a luxury, but is incumbent upon every right-thinking man Tn a. Christian 
 community. 
 
 You exempt public libraries. I have not heard a word said in this Con- 
 vention in regard to that being wrong. In the City of Hamilton I believe 
 they have an excellent public library that is sustained and willingly sustain- 
 ed by the people or it would not be sustained at all; you have a public 
 library in the City of Toronto that is a credit to this City and the Province; 
 In the City of Helleville. from which I come, we have a Mechanics' Institute 
 that we are proud of and which the people contribut(> willingly to. That is 
 simply in the line of educating the pi'ople, in the line of benefiting the 
 people. And the churches are precisely in the same position; and I hold it is 
 only right that wo should C(mtinue to exempt the churches from taxation as 
 we have done in the past. But, if any change at all were made t think the 
 suggestion that was made l)y a member of this Convention that we should 
 veUii o tlu'iii IVoiii taxfitiiiii up to a certain limit, and after that, if any 
 denomination desired simply for the sake of show to have a little higher 
 spire than its neighbor, they should l)e taxed, 'i'he limit which I think gome 
 one mentioned was $ifi,flOO. That would be a principle 1 could see my way 
 to vote for, but nevertheless the edifice and the ground upon which it stands. 
 In my humble opiuicm, should be exempt fiom taxation. The whole reason 
 for the demand for this change in the l;iw has arisen from the fact that sonuj 
 churches have gone out and seized and hold more land than they actually 
 require for church purposes. In the various denominations, which I will not 
 name, in this City and in various other cities throughout the Province, a 
 lot of churches are holding land that should belong to the people, and should 
 not Im' held by those churchea, and 1 fiay that I twit wcnild be a proper line 
 l!\ which to ask for legislation. 1-el the ground necessary for the church b(> 
 exempt from taxation. When a church goes beyond that it shows a disr.osi- 
 tion to gi-ab what does not belong to it. and in that event I would come down 
 
 jibillty of their obtaining that land 
 
 m 
 
 m- 
 
 ipoi 
 
 p 
 
 puss I 
 
 and htdding it. These are my views, and I am glad that they are in harmony 
 
with the views of my friends from Kingston. So you see the people from the 
 east are not in favor of changing the law in the radical way proposed hy 
 this Convention. 
 
 Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound— I do not remember making uses of the 
 expression that the churches were a luxury. 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville-I wrote it down here that the churches were 
 a luxury. I will apologize to Mayor Thompson if he did not say it. 
 
 Mayor Smith, Lindsay— When Alderman Dice rose to speak you called 
 him Mayor Smyth. I do not wish the reporters to take my views for his 
 or his views for mine. I think I can gise my views in a very general prin- 
 ciple that an exemption is equal to a bonus. In this country we do not ap- 
 prove of state aid, and therefore I am opposed to exemption of churches on 
 the broad principle that if it is right in one place it is right in the other. 
 I go to church, and ,as my friend from Hamilton says. I do not intend to be 
 ready to fly yet till I get through all I can do to help and encourage the 
 churches. I believe'in assisting them, and I know of churches and ministers 
 in our town, more than one, that have been accustomed to be exempted, 
 but who think that their properties should be put on the assessment roll and 
 assessed properly. 
 
 Aid. Doyh>, Pelleville— I wish to record my vote here and express my 
 opinions. I wish to be in line with the wise men from the east, and in full 
 sympathy with their opinions. While I pay a large amount of taxes In tho 
 city I belong to, I am willing to make that sacrii't^e lor the purpose of 
 exempting our churches, and I think we would be unwise and unjust at 
 present in taxing them. The churches were erected by subscriv>tlons gener- 
 ally with the full understanding that they were exempt In.m taxation and 
 would be. Tf you step In just now and tax the churches I do not think ir 
 would be just towards those who subscribed and made great (sacrifices for 
 that purpose. With regard to limiting the ground I would be willing !<» do 
 that decidedly, not to be extravagant, not to exempt Iheni In loo much, as 
 my friend the Mayor of "plleville, Mr. .lohnson, has already said. I would 
 be willing to do that, but I t'link I cannot record my vote just now in asking 
 the Legislature not to exempt churches from taxation. 
 
 Alii. Parnell, London— I do not intend to detain the repr(>sentatives very 
 long. Tn fact I have very few words to say in r 'gard to this matter. But 
 T wjtnt in spy as far as I person.illy am concerned that I feel that the prin- 
 ciple of exemptirirr the churches is wrong. But, while I say that I want to 
 say, as I said at the outset when I threw out the suggestion that the ques- 
 
85 
 
 tion was a very brond one, and one which should be carefully considered, as 
 it touched tho best sentiments and fet-lings of so large a portion of the 
 citizens of this Province, I am still of the opinion that a mistake will be 
 made here to-day if we attempt to force the motion through as it is recorded, 
 nnd upon which liiir discussion is taking place. You intend at the next 
 election for municipal purposes, as I understand it. to ask certain questions 
 of the electors and you expect to get an answer. Now, as I said, this touches 
 the minds, hearts and sentiments, of a very large majority of the citizens of 
 this Province. They will have an opportunity of expressing their opinions 
 upon exemptions in particular or general, and this exemption in particular, 
 because, depend upon it, that will be one of the vital points discussed in the 
 asking of those questions and in the vote taken. Now, believing that I am 
 going to move the following resolution which I hope for the sake ot harmony 
 and for the sake of the general good you will carry here to-day; that is, 
 that all motions referring to church taxation be laid on the table pending the 
 vote of the people at the next municipal election; this is seconded by Mayor 
 Johnson, of Belleville. I do not think that the diversity of opinion here that 
 it would have the effect in the Legislature that we are so desirous of getting. 
 
 I- 
 
 Cries of " Question, question." 
 
 Aid. Hannaford. Hamilton — Lest it might be taken that I am one of the 
 great sinners in having the audacity to bring such a motion as this before 
 this august assembly, I hasten to say that I am a member of a church alEo, 
 notwithstanding the fiery remarks of my colleague from Hamilton. 1 think, 
 perhaps. I hr.ve been a member of a church as long as he has, but I do not 
 pretend for one moment that I am better than he. I omitted to make a state- 
 ment when speaking to the motion at the commencement to show the diver- 
 sity of opinion in this matter. I know there are ministers, one in particu'ar 
 in our own city, who objects to have his salary exempted from taxation, 
 and he has always done that since he lesided in the City of Hamilton, and 
 he has paid his just quota of taxation. That is just simply to show the 
 diversity of opinion, that it is not the sinners alone that think the church 
 ought to pay their taxes, but th«> church people themselves think so. Th(>re is 
 another question which I wish to mention. All denominations in Canada 
 fought and fought strenuously that the church and state should be divided, 
 and they fought until they accomplished it. Now. this is just as much 
 applicable as that was, in my humble judgment. I think the church to-day 
 should pay their just quota of taxation equally as well as that the church 
 should be disestablished altogether from the state. Our brother here at the 
 right distinctly stated that the church was deeldediy honest; Implying that 
 some member on the floor had made the statement that the church was 
 
 
 M 
 
8G 
 
 dishonest; he also suid that the church was a bright, and shining light, which 
 I believe it is, but f wish to call his attention to this fact. Ho is a humble 
 follower of the meek ajid lowly man of Galilee, and when the man of Galilee 
 was approached and askt'd: " Good Master, are we to pay tribute?" the good 
 Master said, " Render unto Cseser the things that ,are Csesers." Now, the 
 Master there acknowledged that the state was entitled to somt'thing. But 
 to-day we have gone beyond that, and the church distinctly says, or has said 
 up to the present time — I hope it will soon be stopped — we do not owe the 
 state .anything. I claim they do owe the state something, and I claim on 
 these grounds that they should willingly pay their taxes; and I believe if the 
 vote was submitted to the churches of the Dominion, or, at least, the Pro- 
 vince, they would carry it by no small majority. . 
 
 The Chairman — I put Alderman Parnell's amendment, which, on a vote 
 having been taken, was declared carried amid applause. 
 
 Ex-AUl. Marx, Chatham — Would it be against the rule to have the name;* 
 down and know how the different delegates voted? 
 
 The Chairman — It is too late now; we haven't the means of taking the 
 yeas and nays. 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville — This is not in question. 
 
 The Chairman — That disposes of those resolutions so far as they apply 
 to church exemptions. Is it the wish ot the Convention that all the matters 
 included in these resolutions shall be postponed or laid on the table, because 
 you have by resolution disposed of them so far as they relate to church 
 exemption. . • , . , 
 
 Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound — The same reason that would cause so' 
 many delegates at this Convention to vote as they have done, if thi'y are 
 acting on principle, would cause them to vote on the others the same way. 
 
 The Chairman— Was it the intention of the Convention to rehgati^ other 
 matters contained in these resolutions to the same place to which they sent 
 those v/ith regard to church <>xemptions. ' '■' ^ '■ 
 
 Alderman McKelvey, Kingston—I think we had better go on with the 
 others. 
 
 Alderman Parnell. London— As the m(»ver of the amendment which has 
 jtist b«'en carried I would say we are simply dealing with the quei-tiou 
 before the house. 
 
87 
 
 On motion the other matters contained in the resolutions referred to 
 were laid on the tiihle. 
 
 The Secretary read Clause No. 6 of the second report of the Committee 
 on Resolutions, as follows: 
 
 i> 
 Moved by Aid. M. Y. Keating, St. Catharines, S('C<mded by Aid. Don.ald 
 
 Robertson, St. Catharines, that this Convention desires to express its dis- 
 approval of the passage of any legislation granting special privih'gi's to any 
 municipality 1o grant bonuses of any description to manufacturing indus- 
 tries, and would stronnly recuiintuMul the (iovciinufnt to refu>-:e to allow the passage 
 of any such legislation. 
 
 Aid. R( )'>ertc!un, St. Catharines— Speaking with regard to the latter part 
 of the resoli.iion, we wish some action to be taken whereby we shall get the 
 Legislature, if possi>)le, to refuse any special acts.' For instance, they have 
 already passed a general Act refusing the right to grant bonuses in almost 
 every instance, but some of the municipalities which are represented here to- 
 day have considered that that Act militated against them on some particular 
 occasion, and they go to the Legislature and get them to pass a special Act 
 for their own special benefit. It is to prevent the passage of these special 
 Acts that we wish this Convention to take the action we have recommended. 
 
 The Chairman — This resolution, in my opinion, so far as the last part 
 of it is concerned, is hardly in proper shape; it would be very fooish for us 
 I think to ask the Legislature to pass an Act to prevent the Legislature from 
 doing what it wished in the future; they cannot prohibit themstdves from 
 doing it, but I think we ought to frame this resolution as an expressiim of 
 our opinion that the Legislature should not do anything of the kind in the 
 future. 
 
 Aid. RolxTtson, St. Catharines — The resolution may be wrongly worded, 
 but the intention is, as you, Mr. Chairman, have stated, that we should im- 
 press upon them as the feeling of this Convention that they should refuse 
 anything of the kind in future. 
 
 Th(> Chairman put the motion as amended which, on a vote having been 
 taken, was carried unanimously. 
 
 The Secretary read Clause No. 7 as follows: 
 
 Moved by Mr. Marx, of Chatham, seconded by Mr. Laughton, of Toronto 
 Junction, that section 3 of the Consolidated Assessment Act be abolished 
 and eraiwd from the statutes, which reads as follows; 
 
" Evory pliioe of worship and land used in connection therewitii, church- 
 yard or burying grc.und. Provided, however, that land on which a place ol 
 worship is erected, and land used in connection with a place of worship, 
 phall be liable to be assessed in the same way, and to the same extent as 
 other land, for local improvements hereafter made or to be made." ' 
 
 The Secretary— This resolution is not recommended for consideration by 
 the Commiltec; it is practically the same as Alderman Ilaunaford's 
 resolution. 
 
 The Secretary read Clause 8 as follows, which was withdrawn: 
 
 Moved by Mayor Elliott. Brantford, seconded by Aid. I'arnell. London. 
 
 That when this Convention adjourns it shall meet again in Brantford on the 
 
 23rd of September, 1898. 
 
 t 
 On motion report No. 2 of the Oommittee on Resolutions as amended 
 
 was adopted. 
 
 liiLECTION OF UPFICERS. 
 
 The Chairman— The report which was adopted provides that at the close 
 of the session th" officers for the next year shall be elected. 
 
 Aid. Farnell, London — I was going to move, Mr. Chairman — I knew 
 I am asking something more than I ought to ask — thai Fhe minutes of this 
 meeting be printed and a copy sent to each of the delegates and clerks of 
 municipal councils. 
 
 The Chairman — The delegates of the City of Torotno have already made 
 provisions for that by having a stenographer present to make la report of the 
 proceedings. 
 
 Ex- Aid. Marx, Chatham— I move that +he Mayor of Toronto be President 
 ex ofHoio. 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London— I beg leave to move that the chairman now 
 occupying the chair be President for the ensuing year. 
 
 Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls — I beg to second that. 
 
 I 
 
 The Chairman— It is very kind of you, but having occupied the cha'r • 
 for one year I think the honors ought to go around. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I am of opinion that we ought to have the pre- 
 siding officer from outside. Another reason T have for making the nomina- 
 
89 
 
 tion I am about to iaako is that llio honor of that position ought to go 
 around; I thiiilt that is only fair and right. I have very much ploasurc in 
 bringing f(»rward the nani(> of a gentleman who I am sure cannot but have 
 impressed this Convention with his fitness for tliat position during our 
 session here. I allude to the Mayor of Owen Sound. I therefore nimiinate 
 Mayor Thompson, of Owen Sound, for the position of presiding officer for 
 the next year. 
 
 The Chairman— As I said before, I thinlt the honor should go around, 
 and with the ccvnsent of my mover and seconder I would ask to withdraw. 
 
 W. A. Clark. Yofk Township— I second Aid. Cnrlyle's nomination. 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London— The reason I made the nomination I did was that 
 while I agree with the statement made that the honor should go around, we 
 are now at the beginning of the existence of this Association; there will be 
 perhaps considerable work to do during the year which we have entered 
 upon; there is sure to be because we have certain things that will have to 
 be taken to the Government and looked after, and in view of that and in 
 view of the importance of the year upon which we have entered I think the 
 President and Secretary should be members of the City Council of Toronto. 
 I would heartily support my friend from Owen Sound for the positioli of 
 Vice-President, but I think we ought to have the matter put in the shape I 
 propose for this year at least. 
 
 The Chairman called for further nominations. There being none le 
 declared the nominations closed. 
 
 The Chairman — Those in favor of the nomination of Mayor Thompson, 
 of Owen Sound, for the position of President please signify. 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London— I have not consented to the present Chairman 
 withdrawinfT. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto — I would suggest that Aid. Parnell take the chair 
 While the vote is being taken. 
 
 Aid. Parnell took the chair. 
 
 Aid. Scott, Toronto — I must say that my name must not come before the 
 meeting. There is no use in my taking the chair. I appreciate the honor 
 very much, but I would not allow my name to go forward for the presidency 
 next year. 
 
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Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound— I would say, if Aid. Scott would accept 
 the presidency of tb's Association for the present year T would only be too 
 glad to withdraw. -^ r 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belk-ville — It is clearly the desire of the Convention 
 that you should consent. Aid. Scott, and I think we will request you still to 
 allow your name to be presented. (Applanse). 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London — There is but one nomination before the chair. 
 All in favor of Aid. Scott as President for the ensuing term please signify 
 by a sitanding vote. 
 
 The large body of delegates arose amid applause. 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London — I beg to tender to you, sir, the unanimous ex- 
 pression of this Convention in electing you President for the ensuing year; 
 I hope and trust it will be a very happy and prosperous one. 
 
 Aid. Scott, Toronto — I would rather if the honors had gone around, but 
 
 inasmuch as it was the unanimous desire that I should occupy th<>^ pos^ition 
 
 for the ensuing year I will waive my own feelings on the matter, and I again 
 
 tender you my very sincere and kind thanks for the honor done me. 
 
 (Applause). 
 
 i 
 , Aid. Scott took the chair. 
 
 ' Mayor Johnson, Belleville— I have much pleasure In nominating Mayor 
 Thompson, of Owon Sound, for the office of Vice-President. 
 
 Mayor Barnes, Smith's Falls— I nominate Mayor Skinner, of Kingston. 
 
 Aid. Carlyle. Toronto — I second the nomination of Mayor Thompson. 
 
 Mayor Skinner, Kingston— I beg to withdraw in favor of Mayor Thomp- 
 son. There being no other nominations for the office of Vice-President, 
 Mayor Thompson was declared elected to the office. 
 
 Aid. McAndrews, Hamilton— I beg to nominate Aid. Leslie, of Toronto, 
 for the position of Secretary. 
 
 Councillor McCulloch. East Toronto — I second the nomination. There 
 being no other nominations Aid. Leslie was declared elected to the office of 
 
 Secretary. 
 
 \ *. 
 
 The following were appointed as composing the Executive Committee: 
 
.'f? 
 
 91 
 
 Aid. McKelvey, Kingston; Mayor Colquhoun, Hamilton; Mayor Johnson, 
 Belleville; Aid. Parnell, London; and the Mayor of Chatham. 
 
 The Chairman— Who should lay these matters before the Government? 
 
 Aid. McAndrew. Hamilton— The officers of the Executive. 
 
 The Chairman— Should they be invited to attend here for that purpose 
 or should it be done by memorial. 
 
 u 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— I think they should do it In person. f 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London— That can be left to the Committee. 
 
 Moved by Ma>yor Hewer, of Guelph. seconded by Mayor Thompson, of 
 Owen Sound, That the thanks of this Convention be tendered to his Worship 
 the Mayor and Aldermen of the City of Toronto for calling the present Con- 
 vention together, and also for the pleasant and hospitable time they have 
 given us during our stay in their beautiful Oity, and we trust that their 
 efforts will bring forth good results. 
 
 * 
 
 The Chairman put the resolution, which, on a vote having been taken, 
 was declared carried unanimously. 
 
 The Chairman — His Worship tl e Mayor not being present I can axy that 
 he will I am sure receive this resolution with very great pleasure indeed, 
 and I win say that it gave me very much pleasure to have the opportunity 
 of meeting the members of this Convention and extending a. h<'iirty welcome 
 to them. The views of his Worihip the Mayor and of the other gentlemen 
 who are mentioned in this resolution are that this Convention will, in its 
 deliberations, exercise a very considerable influence in bringing about the 
 reforms for which we have been struggling for so many years. I myself 
 feel very strongly that this Convention has not met in vain, and that the 
 association which we have formed will result in very much benefit to th'.» 
 municipalities in their efforts to govern themselves on the beat linen pos- 
 sible. So far as I myself am concerned, I thank you very kindly for this 
 expression of your good wishes. 
 
 Councillor McCtilloch, East Toronto— I beg to move that the thanks of 
 this Convention be tendered to (»ur Chairman and Secretary; to the Chair- 
 man for the very able way in which he kept order in this assembly of 
 cranks. If I may say it; it appears to me that this has been the most difTi- 
 cult Convention to keep in line that I have ever had the pleasure of attend- 
 ing; It is probably owing to the fact that there are so many strong minded 
 
m 
 
 and large brainod men present. It is a very difficult thing to guide the helm 
 so well, so wisely and kindly as the present Chairman has done; there- 
 fore I thinlt the thanks ol this Convention are particularly due to him for 
 the very able manner in which l.e kept us all in line; the thanks of this 
 Convention should also be tendered to the Secretary for the very able man- 
 ner in which he has kept track of the proceedings. 
 
 Mayor Johnson, Belleville— I would like, as one of the members whom 
 the Chairman has kept in line, to second that motion, and I wish to thank 
 our Chairman for the way in which he has guided me through the many 
 intricacies which have occurred during this Convention. Ho has the quali- 
 ties of a good Chairman; he is dignified and good looking; and I am sur- 
 prised to find he is a bachelor; I do not know what the la,dies of Toronto 
 are thinking about. He has got what is essential in every Chairman, a good 
 thick backbone. 
 
 I must speak also of the City of Toronto from a conventional point of 
 view; it can handle a convention like this and it can handle the British 
 Association of Scientists equally as well. We are proud of the City of To- 
 ronto, and particularly proud of our Chairman. .. 
 
 Aid. Parnell, London— Before that motion is put may I say that I think 
 there is one point that we ought to take home to ourselves, and that is the 
 fact that has been impressed upon us that this Convention has not been 
 held in vain. I desire to say in that connection that although some of us, 
 perhaps all of us, feel we have not got all we want, still we have taken 
 quite a step in the right direction, and I agree with you, sir, that I believe , 
 the resolutions and deliberalions of this Convention will be of such a char- 
 acter that they will make their influence felt from one end of this Province ■ 
 to the other. . '.■ ■!-/'] .;i:'- -\.\--"^' •/>"'■' '-"'«;•■'-' ^-^i>■i' '\ ^ ■;"•;■. ; •■' -'^' 
 
 Aid. McAndrew, Hamilton— While coming down to the City of Toronto 
 this moraing in company with Aid. Emory, there travelled along with us 
 one of the Cabinet Ministers of the Ontario Government, a very Influential 
 member of the Cabinet. He said he was in accord with this Convention, 
 and he believed the resolution that was passed yesterday asking that power 
 should be taken from municipalities to grant t,ax exemptions should be 
 passed by the Ontario Government. He was reading the morning paper 
 when we got on the train at H'lmilton and that was his expression to us; 
 so that we have already got a least one convert In the Cabinet of the 
 Ontario Government. * * 
 
98 
 
 Mayor Thompson, Owen Sound, put Councillor McCulloch's motion 
 which, on a standing vote being taken, was declared carried unanimously 
 (with applause). ' • , 
 
 Mayor Thompson — I beg to tender you, sir, this resolution of thanks. 
 
 Tho Chairman — I have felt all along that my work was made very easy >- 
 for me by the very kindly way with which you received my rulings, though at 
 limes you may not have entirely agreed with them. I lay no claim to in- 
 fallibility in the interpretation of parliamentary ruUs, and if I made a mis- 
 take I made it because of an error in judgment and not from any deoire to 
 influence by my decision the legislation of this Convention. 
 
 'K \ 
 
 It has never been my pleasure to preside over a body that yielded so 
 nicely to the decisions of the chair, and in that respect my work was made 
 very easy for me. While the expression "cranks" has been uspd, I ihnk 
 it is not used in any offensive sense; I can only say that if the members 
 of this Convention can be called cranks. I delight to be in the company of 
 cranks. At any rate, the term " crank " brings to us this idea, that no man, 
 no community ever accomplished anything in the way of reform unless 
 he or they was or were in earnest about it, and to be earnest in these days 
 is taken as another name for being a crank. 
 
 T express my thanks again to you. It has been very great pleanire to 
 me to preside at this meeting. I trust the meeting has been pleasant to you 
 all; I trust you will go home and spread the good news you have obtained 
 amongst your constituents, and that they will all return you to power and 
 send you back again to Toronto, and nobody in Toronto will welcome you 
 with any greater pleasure than your Chairman. (Applause.) 
 
 I forgot some time ago when the vote was tendered to the Aldermen 
 for their services, to include Alderman Carlyle; I wish to give him an op- 
 portunity of offering his thanks. 
 
 Aid Carlyle— What you have said, sir, is Quite sufficient. 
 
 Ories of "Carlyle. Carlyle." 
 
 Aid. Carlyle, Toronto— Mr. Chairman, I have to thank you for (ho good 
 words you have said for the Mayor and Aldermen of the City of Toronto 
 and every member of the City Council. I can assure you, sir, that there is 
 no member of that Council who welcomes the delegates to this Convention 
 to Toronto more gladly than I do. and there Is no one who has taken more 
 interest in the deliberations of this Convention, and nc one who has been 
 
94 
 
 more nnxious about the results of this Convention than your humble ser- 
 vant hufi been. I rejoice to-day that the results have been what they are. 
 I expected that we should be more in number, but I did not expect greater 
 results than have been achieved by this Convention. I therefore can retire 
 to-night from the Convention with some degree of satisfaction. I have not 
 urged for this Convention, or a.gitated for this Convention on any personal 
 grounds, but I believed that it was in the interests of the different communi- 
 ties; pnd for that reason I tried to get the Convention together. I thank 
 you again for the kind words you have spoken. (Applause.) 
 
 On motion of Aid. Parnell, of London, the Convention adjourned. 
 
 I 
 
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