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Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent §tre filmds d des taux de reduction diffdrents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour dtre reproduit en un seul clichd, il est fiimd d partir de Tangle supdrieur gauche, de gauche d droite, et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre d'images ndcessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mdthode. 1 2 3 22t 1 2 3 4 5 6 •31^ Til? S^8>^ ottsi^ of Commons Bebates SIXTH SESSION-SEVENTH PARLIAMENT SPEECH OP T. S. SPEOULE, M.P. o\ Tiii: REMEDIAL ACT MANITOBA OTTAWA, THURSDAY, uxn 3IARCII, 1896 xMr SPROULB. In rising to continue this debate I must first express the regret which I experience in being obliged to diff • with political friends with whom I liave been as- sociated for a long time and with whose lines of policy I have usually worked in hearty accoi'd. It is a matter for regret amongst politicians on either side of the House when they And themselves out of ac- cord with the political party with which thev have worked many years, and you readily understand, Mr. Speaker as I have no doubt the House does, that it is a very strong provocation wnieh will induce auy member of Parlia- ment to go against his own politicfil party. It is only the conscientious convictions which I hold on this question, and the inter- pretation which I put upon the constitution that we havi heard so much about of late and the understanding I have with rog.-ird to the rlglits of the majorities and inino-i- tloH, tlia*- induce me to take the stand which I take to-night. But we OM-e a duty to our country as well as to our p.irty, and there will sometimes come in most men's lives a time when they are obliged to leave party and to stand for what they regard as tli-' best Interest of the country. As r^presen.'-n- tives of the people we are sent* 'here, as rn'v us possible to reflect the view^, and the' Rent'iTGnls and the- wishes cf ovr eonstiiu- ents In whatever part of the cflnn{;r3^ tbi(>v live. In endeavouring to dtf tliat to-night. I am about to speak on the line which I ) have mapped out. We are asked in connec- tion with tills debate, what duty we owe to our constituents ? The hon. member for .North Grey (Mr. Masson) my colleague, who spoke on this question last night, said that it is not usual for the Government to sub- mit a question to the people by way of a plebiscite ; but they go up and down the couiitry and hold meetings ; they watch the press of the country, and by that means endeavour to ascertain the sentiments of the people, and then to keep themselves in accord with those sentiments in discharg- ing their duties as legislators or as a Gov- ernment. Now, if that be the case. anxT I nresumo it is a fair exposition of the case I wonder how hon gentlemen supporting he Government of the day, and compos- ing tlie Government of the day. can justify their position upon this question, or pretend to say that they are in accord with the senti- ment ci tlie country. At the outPet. I mav say that I regret to find that the Govern- meiit arc in my judgment, so much out of accord with the sentiment of the country Why do I say so ? How do I estimnte or gauge public sentiment on this matter •> I UpT. l^'I^P^'^ff ""^ ^^^ country, from one erfd of it to the other, especially that press which represents ttiefolitical party to which I be- long. .'-ndvVDlch: endeavours to give voice to thr-ir sentiments, to defend their pollcv to stippor^ their' cofaduct; and I sav that fi!*w2^*^'^.™^^'* ™."^* ''^^'■et to-dav to find that there is scarcely an Important Conser- 61316 vatlvc paper which is clofendlng thcMii nml thoir vAU-y iu eiidwivourlug to pass tht> Kill thnt. is before the House. If you go from Prince Euward Ishiucl lu the east to Vic- toria in tlie M-est, and look over the Cou- pervallve papers iu this country, 1 t'liuk you niiv'ht count on the five lingers of your hand ail those that come out and give a strMi','lilfor\vard support of this measure, and of tlio policy of the Government in at- temiiling lo ])ass it. Then I take tlie inde- pendent press of the country. I miglit uioution a few of them, but they are so well known to this House and to the people tliat it is scarcely necessary for me to do so. But it would not be out of place to ask. iu reference to those papers that have suii- porled the Government so strongly In tlie past, wliere are th(>y to-day V The only one that is giving oven a half-liearted support to their policy is the " Mail and Eniiiire," of Torf>nto ; and yet it has never, so far as niv nidgment enables me to understand it, iuidiKcd any respectable argument citliMr to defend or justify their course to-day. If •we leave out of account the " Mail and Em- pire," where do we lind the rest of the pa- pers ? Wheie do we Ihid the " World," the next greatest exponent of the principles of ilie Couservatise party? Wo lind that it is arrayed against the Goveriunenfs course on this question. Where do we lind the Toronto "News" V Where do we liud the Toronto " Telegram " V Where do we find the lorouto "Star"? Where do we And the Hamilton " hpectator " ? I might go over the wliole list, and I lind in almost evorv instance that »hose papers are array- ed against the party, and they believe that they are voicing public sentimeut. Then, if they are voicing public sentimeut, how cau the Government to-day be in accord with that publit; sentimeut ? If it be the duty of the Government to reflect public sentiment iu their legislation, then I ask, how cau they S(iuar(> this iegislatiou with the senti- ment of the country, as expressed by these papers ? Now, we are told by the lion, member for North Grey that in order to ascertain ^\■hat public sentimeut is, the (Jov- crnnient go out into the country and hold political meetings. Well, If I take the ex- pression of the public meetings that have been held in this country, do I find any stronger evidence of nubile sentiment be- ing with them than it is as expressed tlirough the press ? I can assure you that the verdict of the people is to the contrary, as expressed In public meetings that have been held for the last two or three years in everv part of the country. Why, they have scarcely gone upon a single platform and dared to' say that in the end they were bound to pass remedial legislation, apd nslr- ed the electorate of this country to eixlorsc it, and where the electorate' haVo* eiuiorse^l it. When they went into.Kor.tfi.Ofitarlo nnd put up thfir" cnndidate, . -^-hat . wevo they obliged to do ? They weye nhUg«d to lSav(» their candidate keep fr.c^n^..\:lje Jaiowledpe of the electorate his Intention regarding remedial legislation, as they knew, other- wise, tiiat lie could not receive tlie support of tiie iieople. I ask tii(> lion, geutlenian from Noriii Ontario (Mr. McfJiilivray), wliat , course did he lake in trying to Induce Hit j electorate to supiiort iiiin ? He said ; I am ' not going to be pledged In tills matter ; but j I iioint you to my record In tlie past as tc ! wliat yon niiiy expect from me in tlie future. Have 1 not gone tliiougii two or three politi- cal lights in the province of Ontario ? Mr. M((?HJiIVUAY. The hon. goutle- niau is mistaking my i)osltion in North Omario. Mr. Sl'KOUl.E. In what resiiect, I would like to know, am 1 misstating liie hon. geu- llemau's position ? I was going on lo say tliat according to wliat 1 read lu the papers ! which reported liini pivily extensively, his ! lauguage was to this effect: The elector- ! ate of this county know my record, be- I cause I have fonglit two political lights lu I provincial campaigns on this (piestion. i They know the stand I have tak(>n on the (piestiou of separate schools ; they know whaL I have said. Now, then, t tell you that I am standing to-day upon the same j ground that 1 lia\e always stood. Now, ' Mr. Speaker, what was that ground ? Was it in- support of a remedial law which would force separate schools on Manitoba, or was It against it ? Why. if I understand the ground the lion, gentleman has taken in tlie past, it was that when Ontario and Oucbec entered Into a compact at tlie time of con- feder.itlon, they accepted tli(>se separate sdiools as an arraiigement between the two provinces. Tliey are here to stay, and we cannot lielp it. Hut I shall never sup- port their extension into any otlier province or any other part of the country. That was tlie rec(U'd upon which that hon. gentleman sought election, and It was upon that re- cord tliat the jieople accepted lilni. But had that hon. gentleman come out plainly and told the electorate of North Ontario : I am going down to vote for reni(dial iegis- latiou, I am assured liy men Who ought to know the situation, that in? would have been buried under a majority of nearly a thou- sand vote^ in Ills own riding. Is that an evidence that the Government are fairly en- titled to accept as voicing public senti- ment in favour of this legislation ? No ; I say it Is not. Tluui if I go to Cardwell. what does public sentiment tell me there ? It tells me that the Government candidate who had apparently, at least, come out and ndmit'ied that he was prepared to RU])port the policy laid down by the Government up- on this question of remedial legislation, was buried under a hopeless mass of votes ; he wfls Muried.so far as his political life Is cou- cernefl, \»ovci to rise again, at least In that foflstftuency. But the hon. gentleman who frsaklT oj-qiosf:! the policy nf remedial \p's- istntioij,; 'lfort. by diiu of exerclsinj,' all the ])ower they could biinff to bear, they did manufacture sullicient pub- lic sentiment to endorse tlieir present course. But I say there are many men of in- telllsanco to-day who, as I read iu the pub- lic press, are observing' the si;;ns of ijie times as indicated iu the way we judsv pub- lic sentiment, and wlio have come to the conclusion that tlie voice of the coiumy is as-'iiust the (Jovei'ument in this atiemii't to lutcrfero Avith tlie riglits of Maniicb.i. There is no mis-talviiiK it. and if lion, ueu- tlemen coi litutiug tlie Government do not believe it io-da.v, a time will come when they will recognize it, -wlieu at the elections the people will speak with a voice so strong that they cannot misunderstand It, and m.mv members wlio a<)\v fail to recogui/.e th;i't voice, as indicated by public seniimei't, will be left in the minorily after the voles have been counted, and they m'iII then rece:;;ii/e thiit they misiijulerstood public sentinii nt and acted contrary to it. I It being Six o'clock, the Speaker left ihe Chair. After Recess. Mr. Sl'ROUIitl. Mr. Speaker, in continu- ing the debate uu tins most important .-ub- jecl, I may refer for a few seconds to the portion of it under consideration when vou left the Chair at six o'clock. I was eudm- vouriug to give thou what, according to my judgment, was public opinion and public seutiment on this measure, and how far they were In accord with the action of the Ciov- erumeut iu dealing with this most import- 1 ant measure. There is no doubt that no ques- tiou which iias engaged the attention of Par- 1 liament for a great many years iu tliis country is regarded as of as mucli Import- ' ance as the one before the House to- day. On tins question above all others, you might naturally look to the press of the country for au exposIt?on of public sentiment, and also as manifested by public gatherings, through church assemblies and similar chan- nels. I -\\ub endeavouring to show that If we examine the press of the country there can be no mistake as to what public senti- T S S-1% lent is, because while the press supporting he t.oyernment iu u.eir policy, their Na- tional 1 olicy, their measures rehitiug tu the fast steanislup line and the development of trade, am on almost every other lin.- of policy which lias been under consideratinu (iuniig the hist lifteen or sixteen vears, those .louruals have be, n notably silent as regards say ng anything endorsing the nieasuie now under tlic consideraliou of the House (in he contrary, tliere is scarcely a Conserva- tive paper in the country Imt has given .,ut some discordant sound, some note of warn- ing, some sugu'esliei, wl,i,.|, „:i-lii .i.duce tlie (.overnmeiit to al>,in,hm wlii'tvery inanv regard as an Insane course they are foi- iinniig at tlie present time and desist ffoin '"riV.'lf ^" ''"'■'■'' "'" *'■' "ii'villing province a Bill that will talte away rights that everv province has heiviofuic eiii.)vcd, wliicli the l)rovin.x> of Manitoba has luTetotore eniov- ed, and whicli in tli<; opinion of the lai-e iii.'i.iority of the people it sliould enjov 7a lie lutute. So far as my .bidmnent p,es, tliero can be no mistake as to what public "Piniot, i.s. Then if tin- (Jovernmeiit aiv niuiung counter to public- opinjou and there- »y lose the siii.p,,it of tiieir own fneiuls. they y liould not bhune tlieir friends, lait rather Idanie their own blindness that leads them in a chanmd whicli compels tlieir 1 1 lends to desert tliem. ^^■ll_y do 1 oi)pose this Kill at file present time .' I oppose it liecause ir is makim.- a serious mroad on principles wliich have l.een heivtotore regarded .-,« sound. What are ' tliose principles V This Bill is interfering in t,!e iirst place, with tlie rights „i' die province. There is no one who Is acquainted Mith the history of Canada and has wiilched closely allairs during tlie last twelve or lif- teeu years who failed to regard with a" good deal ot su.spicion anything that raises the question of provincial riglits or c;uises autJi- gonism between any province and the Fede- ral Government, because we have had sev- eral tights in this country on tliat line, and the lesson taught is to avoid in future lis much as iiossible any interference with ; the rights ot tlie provinces. Onlv a few i years ago we had a very great struirgle on i '?!m7'",^?''^' '■'"'"^- '^ occurring on the St^ienms , Bill. 1 wo or tliree enactments were passed , by he proviucijil legislature. Tliey were ihsallowed by the Dominion Government on tlie (luestion as to the right of a province to control streams within its own territo- ries. What was the result ? When the question Avas taken to the courts the lii-h- est court of the Empire decided agaiust tlio Dominion. In the meantime a V(>rv strong feeling had been aroused. The agita- tion that had been carried on against the Dominion Government for interfering with what a great many regardent of many, was wrong ; but we sto;-d by the principle, believing tliat w.^ stood up for tii(> riglits of a province. If that rule is applied to tlie province of Que- bec, then, wliy sliould it not be applied to the province of Manitoba to-day ? The same that t'.ppiies to one should applv to the other; the .same rights the one 'province has, the other province ought to enjoy. Sir, I oppose this liiil because it pre- vents the will of the majoritv from l)eiug carried out. The invariable principle is, that majorities must rule. Some say, that majorities should not always rule, bi'it tliey do rule in every walk of lile. If you go into a business corporation, tlie majority rules ; if you go to a churcli meeting,' the majority rules : if you go to a township council, the majority rules. -Air. DEVIJN. If you go to Turkey, the majority rules, too. Mr. MILLS (Annapolis). And the majority in heathen countries rules. i Mr. SPUOULE. I am talking about civil- ized life, as we understand it in the British Empii'e. 1 say that in every part of the British Empire it is regarded 'as tlie correct principle tliat the majority sliall rule, and whatever decision the majority comes to, it is generally recognized to be "right. \ow, it does not matter whether you apply the principle to a township council", or to a 'muni- cipal corporation, tlie principle that the ma- jority rules is the principle that holds good. | Why should a rule the reverse of this bo applied to the province of Manitoba ? In the provincial legislature there, the major- ' ity rules. In this very House the niaiority rules by their voice. Wliether the minority j acquiesces in the principles promulgated o'r not, it does uot matter ; the majority rules. The province of Manitoba has rights, or she thinks she has rights, which she was en- j titled to enjoy, and, according to her under- ' standing of her rights, she is dealing with a question in which she ic vitally interested. A large majority of her people have come to the solemn conclusion, that it is In their in- terests and the interests of their province, that they shall in future have a different system of education from what they had liad up to the year ISIM), And yet to-day wo iir(' trying to prevent tliat majoritv from ruling in tlie province of Manitoba. "We are told, that tliis Is soiiietiiing emlxKlied in tlie constitution, and tliat. tlierefore. It should bo held sacred, and we should not disturb it. Tliere is no doui)t there is some sliow of argument for tliose who hold that view, and 1 will (leal with it later (Ui. I have hero the debates wliicii took jilaee In '8(m and 18(;(!, wlien they were trying to liriiig about confederation, and I have ioul.ed at tiie dis- cussions which took place upon the lesolu- tions on wliicli the British .\orth America Act was founded. 1 see here one of the eminent men of tli;it day, I'orecastin:;- what might be the dangerous result, if you insist on taking away the riglits froiii majorities. And to-day. in tlu^ light of experience. It seems to me to be verified to tlie letter. John Sandlield Maedonald, wlio w;isa Koii:;in Catholic, was speaking agjiinst tliat lU'ovi- sion of this resolution, wliicli was intended to place upon provinces riglits for minorities which never could In- changed, no mattei what the changed condition of tlie country or the character of tla." jieople. Me moved a resolution in op))ositIon to that, and, in supporting his resolution, lie said : I rise, Sir, to propo.?e another amendment, I can assure tlje House that I never knew a meas- ure of anything like this iiiiportauct! go through with so few attempts to amend it. Xor do I rise for tlie mere purpose of putting my ameud- ment on record, for I do feel that the views I am about to express, and which I ha/e ever held since 1 have been a member oC this House may not commend thehisslves to any oonsideralile number of the members. I have no desire that the rights of the Roman Catholic minority of Upper Canada should be abridged. He had no desire that they shot., 1 .le abrid- ged, but lie refused to endorse the principle that the resolution granting them should be perpetual. I have no desire that the rights and privileges of any other denomination shall be interfered with in any respect ; but I wish hon. morabera to bear in mind that the experience we have had in tias country, not to allude to that of the neighbouring state, proves tliat a denial of the right of the majority to legislate on any given matter has always led to grave consequences. I need only mention the Clergy Reserve question. This, it must be recollected, was forbidden to be legislated upon by the Union Act ; yet it was the cause of fierce strife and legislation for many years. The original constitution of the United States prohibited the question of slavery from being interfered with by Congress ; yet an agitation for its suppression was early com- menced, and has at last terminated in civil w .r. The agitation of the Clergy Reserve question produced a rebellion in Upper Canada. I say, Sir, that by making a constitutional restriction in respect to the schools of the minority, we are sowing the seeds from which will in the end arise a serious conflict, unless the coastitution be ampnded, The minority will be quite ?,."-fo, on a question relating to their faith and their educa- tion in a colony under the sway of the British Crown ; but if you expressly withdraw that ques- tlon from tlm control of tho majority, tho rights of tho minority will not be safo In cither section of tho province, It you distrust tho action of tho innjorlty. It Is our duty, Sir, to see that a question which affects us so dearly as tho educa- tion of our chlldreu— 11 question which has be- fore now created no little excitement In Upper Canada— shall not bo withdrawn from the man- ngeuKint of the local IcKlnlaturo. We ought not to deprive thorn of a power which thoy will want to exorcise, just because they are deprived of 11, and i)rovoke ii losire on their part to alter the system. You may rely upon It other religious bodies will be sure to protest nsulnst any par- ticular creed having special ric;hts, or an exclu- sive monopoly of certain privileges, whatever they inoy be. I should be astonished If any one In this House would say, either to the I'rotostant minority lu Lower Canada or to tho Koman Catholic minority in I'ppcr (^einad.i : •• Vou art- not to trust to the justice of the majority." Have they ever known a country where tho iiiHj'M'ltv- did not control alTalrs and where the minority had not to submit ? Ami yet we nw iisUcd to-diiy to prcveui tho iiMijoiily ill M.mitdhii ooiUroUin:,' the iillJilis of tliiit i)roviiu'i', iiltliou'^'li we Imvc iK'Vir Iciiowii ii civilized country wIum'c ii Wiis not thi' casL' tliiit tlii> niii.iority foiitrol- Icd autl the iniiiority submitted. " lie goes on : Does not the majority rule and the minority submit In England and In France ? I have never heard of any case where this was not tho case The minority Is safe against undue encroachment on Its rights, and I am willing to trust to the sense of justice of tho majority in Upper Canada to preserve the religious and educational liber- ties of the Roman Catholics of Upper Canada. I am now getting some what advanced in years, and I am the more anxious to put my opinions on record, because before! long I shall have the sali.staction of saying, though perhaps not on the floor of this House, that I protested against re- solutions Intended to prevent tho free expression of opinion by the majority of the people of Upper Canada, and the exercise of a power which ought to be entrusted to them. Wo can see to-dfiy, iu the li;,'lit of e.vpe- rleiU'O, tile ton sjujii nud inlelji^ieiieo of the liite .Jolui Sr.Uiliield Maedoiiiild in ilie fore- eu.stinj; Miiat nii:j:lit he tlio result if tlie ii.i,'hts of the nia.jority in a province \v(-re tnlcen away, and tliey Avero not allowed to cxerei.-ie the liphts that heionj.r to every civi- lized country. He v/ent on to move a' reso- lution as follows :— That the following words be added to the ori- ginal motion : — " .\nd that It be an Instruction to the said committee to consider whether any constitutional restriction which shall exclude from the local legislature of Upper Canada the entire control and direction of education, subject only to the approval or disapproval of the general Parlia- ment, is not calculated to create widespread dissatisfaction, and tend to foster and create jealousy and strife between the various religious bodies In that section of the province." Ho j;oes on to say : If hon. gentlemen think they are going to silence the bitter feelings which have been en- gendered In Upper Canada In consequence of the utenipt to malte permanent a certain system of education, they are nnich mistaken ; and I desire to have tho expression of tho opinion of the membsrs of this House on the subject, whether they tiilnk that tho restriction In the proposed constitution I have mentioned lu calculated to bring about harmony, and whether It Is not belter to let the Catholics of Upper Canada and the rrotestants of Lower (;ttnada protect tbem- Bolves, or rather trust for protection to the sense of Justice of their fellow-subjects. .\ii hon. gciilleman who (jpiiosed that motion .said : Though I am asainst the separate school sys- ti'tu, 1 am willing to accent this confederation, even though It penietuates a sn)all number of .*ci>arate schools. Under the present legislative tiiilon ue are luiwerlcii-f In any movement for tlic abrogation nf tlie scp.aniti' svstem ; it is even very doubtful if we could resist the de- mands for Its extension. We will not bo in any worse position under tho new system, and in one respect wo will have a decided advantage. In thot no further change can be made by the separate school advocates. Wo will thus substitute cer- tainty for uncertainty I deeply regret that the hon. member should have thought it necessary for any purpose to move this resolution. ire did not eonteinplate any fnrtliiT eiianse.s, I ut lie was wiiliii;,' to act opt wliat was then in e.viistenco iu Ipper and Lower Canada. -Ml'. DEVLIX. Wiio In Id thtit laujAuage ? Mr. SrnOULK. It was Mr. X. Macken- zie. -Air. DEVLIX. ^Lacl{cnzio ? -Mr. WriiOUI.E. Vess. I (idnli so. Nov,-. 1 tliinli I liave made clear two things. The lii'st is that it was never coiitenmlatod at confederation to compel every in'oviuc Dial came into the union to accept separate schouls. Ipiil only k, .-icce])! the solemn com- pact made between Upper and Lower Can- ada, and to act on the imd'Tstamiinir tliat that compact sliould be carried out. .\cting on that understandin.ir, in two or three local (>le(t;oiis in the province of Ontario in which the school question engaged a great deal of attention, I steadily refused to say one \\onl a^ialust separate schools in Upper or Lower Can.'tda. Ijccause I considered that inuler tin' solemn compact made at con- fedi'ratiou, the rights enjoyed by the minor- ities in tiie two jiroviuces should be main- tained. But 1 held that it -was never con- tiinplatod, when confederation was bvonght about, that similar rights sliould be exUuded to (Very province that came into the union, and 1 am .iustified in that belief by the icsolutions tliat were moved at that "time. Som(> say that we arc bound not onlv to ,L:ive separ.'ito schools to every province "that romes into the union, but after it comes iu, and it engrafts on its statures some m-ivi- Icge iu regard to schools that may or not be .iii.miiiabip. that piivileire nnisT remniu there for ever. I say there Is nothing in the U'iie lalo Hon, Alexande'- luence of the In Bysteni of ami I deaire inlun of the )oct, whether the proposed calculated to ar It U not Canada and irotect them- to the sense tliat motlou 1 school sys- unfoilGriitlon, 1 number of It loKlslatlvQ loveiiK.'iit for ■stem ; It Is !8l8t the de- ot be In any 1, and la one itago, in that the separate bstltiite cer- ;ret that the it necessary on. lur flimigC!!, »t \v:is then CailJl(l:|. Ifuimiage ? Alcxa licit"- •;o. 'Sow, I iugs. The iiniliitoil !it i)viu<\- ihat >t sejiarate :)k>lllli I'OlU- .ower Cau- uiii'ii.' rlini iiu. Acting three local io in which great deal to say cue 1 Upper or clered t hat lie at con- the minor- .1 1)0 main- nover con- as bvoiight le cx'cuacfl the luiion, iel' by the that time, ot only to jvlnce that t coines lu, some privi- lay or not 1st remain hing in the resolutions to wmTaiit that cnniention. In reading Ihe lesithitli.i's assigning io the lc^|.. latnrcH of the provliiecM the snlijects wlilclr they (onlil coulrol. 1 tind tlii-< laid down : The local leRlslature shall have power to make laws respecting the following subjects :— .\ni(M!K tliche l.s ; Education, saving the rights nnd prlvllogen which the I'roto.stant or Catholic miiinrlty In both Canadus may possess as to their donoiiilnutlonal schools at the time when the union goes Into operation. ; iliit It says nothing aliont ilie s.iiih' rl^hl lieing e\ie;i(li'(l to aiiy oMier |)r..vin(e that ' may como In. That was the solemn under- .slaiiilln^' coiiii t laws liave heen niiule and beeonie eciusiitntioual laws, (pr- tain provisions are fiPiind in them tliat won' never coutemplatiMl, we ouglit to have som" opiKirtniiliy of exainliiinL;' tlieiu lief.nc we are asked to n.ssent to tlieiii. In oiiposifioii to that, tlio AttoriK^v ct : In and for the province of Manitoba the said ' legislature may exclusively make laws in rela- tion to education, subject and according to the following provisions :— Nothing In any such law shall prejudi'-laily affect any right or privilege with respect to de- nominational schools which any class of persons 'lave by law or practice in tho province at tho iiion. 'Ihey went further than the British North .Vmerica Act. because that Act onlv provid- ed that they shall enjoy what they liave at tlio time of the union. But it was changed because of tho New Brunswick case. The minority had not tlie right to have separate seliools in law, and, therefore, that right eeuld not be given back to tlieiii. The minor- ity should en.1oy the right whicli they had on going into the union. Is iiny riglit 'taken away from them wliich they en.ioyed whoa they came into the union V Did "tlio Privy U'euneil say .so ? Tlio Privy Council did not say anything of the kind. Tlie Roman Catho- I lie minority In Manitoba had not that right i in practice, because' there were no separate s( hools tliere in practice ; they had what is j ki;owu as parochial seliools, ' which they j might establish 'o-day upon the same basis. I And. therefore, we are not going beyond the \ bound of reason, when we say tliat they ! h.Tve not the right, under the Act providing ' foi' the incorporation of Manitoba into con- federation, to appeal against the Manitoba statute which did away with separate •Obooll, Ix'fiiuMc tlicy (11(1 not enjoy the rU'lil to depnrntc scIiooIm when they ciuiic Into iliu union, 'riiiit rlKlit was jjlvtMi tiicni iift((r tbey canR' into (lie union. Tlu' unidii waw ccnsuminatcil In 1H7<», mid scimrulc kcIiooIh Wfi'c nlvcn in 1S71, anil llic Uonnm Cu^iolli- nilnoiliy arc cn.joylnt,' to-tlay all the rij^'Uts llicy cnjovi'd mi conilnK into Uic union, and no Vl;;li't 'wlilcli llicy enjoyed then Is laUen from them to-day. Therefore, they eauuot complain lalrly on that line. We are told that tlir e(iiiHtltitllon bIiows that ihev shall enjoy certalu riKlHs. .Now, I would like to ask thi.s House, what arc fonslliuiiiins V They are oidy coin pacts hctweeu ;;()vernnients and iod- vldlials, made to sldl llie necessllle.^ of the time and cirfumatanees, and, as time koos on and conditions chanp', as people die and jMiss oil' the stiiKe of at'llon and olherK take their places, ns the necessities nf Hie lime and chniiK'n^' circumstances and ciuidillons may re(|uirc, tliose constitutions may he oha'nued. CoiistiiutlonH are not imnuitublc. Ai one time one of the provisions of Ilie Hi'itish coustllutlon was, that there sliould he chiU'ch and state. AVhere Is church and state to-day V Whore would It he to-day, if that constitution never channed V The old system of church and state has h(>eu doiu- away with by the very descendants of th • men' who Wi're the slronj; advocates of 11 years airo. and who rejrarded it then as one of the safeu'tiards of the British constitu- tion. But. as time, as coiulltions, ns tiie circumstances chanKparale hcIkjoIs, but, as regards Maidtolm, the compact was oidy that they should enjoy what they had on going Into tlie union ; and on going into the union, Manitoba had not separate schools. The scignorial teuiiri! was, at one time, a very burning (iiiestion In the lU'ovince of t.nicbec. It was at one time suitalile to the viinth- of the people, but, as time and condi- tions changed, it was abollslicd by law. Wo liiid a clergy reserve! fund lliat gave a cer- lain portion' of land for the bcnetll of the ( Icrgy, iind that was embodleii in tlie com- pact In'tween I'pper and l.ower (Canada and formed part of our constitution, is it sianding lo-d.iy V .No, long since the clergy reserve lands were taiien away from the clergy and used for the purposes of tlu> (■(lUiit'ry, liccause the changed (.'ondltions of the (lav rendered the change necessary. The i.mstiiullou of tlM> United States provided that C'ongre.ss should not interfere with slav- ery. Enligliteiicd public opiidon In that great repulilic. however, dem.'inded that slavery sliould he done away with, liecause it was inlr.iman and not In consonance with the iidvauced state of civilization, and not In iiarmony with Iniinan I'lH'llng and sympa- tliv ; and. althotigh the .Vmerican constitu- tion iirovided that It should not be clianged, what did the people do V They first made a comiH'omlse, what Is known as tlie Mis- souri compromise, and d(>ciared that slavery should not go lK\vond certain bounds. But that was not sullicient ; public opinion was too strong to stand shivery to ai:y extent, h( wever limited, and they abolislied slavery, though they were obliged to do it l)y ciiang- ing tlie constitution, though, in order to effect that change, they had to resort to arms and cause the loss of tens of thou- sands of valual>lo lives and millions of money, and though they had to accomplish that "change l)v one of tlu; greatest civil wars the woild has ever seen. The constltu- '' tiou, however, had to be changed, because the retiuiri'iueiUs of the time demanded it. What iire constituticuis, if they are not made to suit the re(iuiremeuts of the times and of the age in which we live T If the constitu- tion of Manitoba became entirely uusuited for the requirements of Manitoba, would it be wise to insist that Manitoba should abide by it, and not effect a change ? 1 say it would be most unwise. Because she saw lit to think otherwise, because she seeks to make this change, are we going to abuse her ? No. I would like to ask hon. gentlemen : Suppose that through some iii;;dscneuce or malicious design, or from any other cause, you had engrafted upon tliii constitution of that country a separate school system that was entirely uusuited to the civiiization of the age, entirely uusuit- ed to tlie reiiuirements of the rising genera- tion, who otiglit to be given a fair educa- It U bo- liitu before t province iiH ri'nards that tliey KoliiK into tliu uiilnu, dIh. )iu' tlmo, a irovlnco of able to tlio iiml comll- ly law. Wo ,'avo II oer- icllt of tho II tin? fom- 'aiimla anil Ion. iH It till' <'lL'rtfy • I'roiii thu scH of the iidlllonH of 'ssary. Tlie >s iirovidi'd ' with Slav- ion In that uidcil tliat 111, l)l'(MUH(! iiiiini'i; with in, and not and sytnpa- III conatitu- he fhauRod, lirst made IS the Mis- :hat slavery junds. But >I)inIou was ai:y extent, hed slavery, it by I'Jiang- u order to o resort to ns of tbou- luilllons of accomplish ■cutest civil 'he constltu- ed, because enianded it. ro not made imes and of he coustltu- dy unsuited toba, would toba should a change ? e. Because because she •e wo going like to ask lU'ough some ;?n, or from rafted upon 7 a separate unsuited to irely unsult- sing genera- fair educa- tion. It Is mild that tlils separate mcIiooI Bystem U a good on.' ; but siippuse lliat the separate Hchool K,\stem had been tin. worst. Merely becim.Mf ilmt Hysteiii liad been engrafted n)»oii ilii> (miiisiIi litldii. ninst It remain tliere for ever V W'nnid tliat lie common seii.so or common wisdom V Would It .luHtlt'y any clasH of men In abiding by It ? Would not these 111. Ml rather be liiNii. tied In t^o am-Mdlng the coimiltnlloii as to bring tliemH,>lves Into liariiKuiv with ilu'lr onvlroiimeuiH and wllli tlie iv(|'ulremeiits of the country In whiih they llnd themsi.hes •' Why Is tills mil objeetioiialiie V It Is .)b- Joctlonable mainly bec.inse It eslabll.shes two systems of educational law, and two systems of education in a conntrv where they can hardly alTord to support one sys- tem. We hear It often said: Suppose ilio people of Queb(!c Avere to do with tli..|r separate schools there what the people of Mnnltoba have done with the sepa'iite schools tliere. Rut the cases are not at all the same, and tho comparison Is not a reasonable one. Yon can only <'onii>a!'e thuurs that are, to som(> exti^nt, nllk(\ 1 go to the i)rovlnco of Qtudu'c, and I find the people settled .)ii narrow lots that- extend a mil.' (ind a ntiarter In lemrtb. Imt are only. If I remember well, forty rods In width. A family lives on the front of each lot. and the front of (he lots is like a con- tinuous village. The people are congregat- ed In large numbers in a small space. If the peo))U> want two schools they injiy be quite nhlo to support them, for' thev" arc numerous enough and wealthv enough to do .so. But compare that with the condi- tions In Mnnltoba. IPiIf of the land Is Kept as 'i ivserve. and not settled at all In some places ; the people can get 100 ncre-^ each. Instead of 80 acres cieh, and tli..re ,ir.. only t..urCiiiiiilios In a mile, Inst, >arl of from elirht to sixteen. Is II to be supposed that the same rules are applicable to the people of Quebec that are .applied to the people of Manitoba ? Not at all. The provincial government, in their wisdom decide that Xm conditions were such that it Is Impos- sible to Impose two school systems upon the people, that the people are too weak and cannot maintain their in elTiciencoy. That Is the reason why they did not wish to per- petuate the two systems there. I have here fi pamphlet that deals Avlth the subject, and It shows that the popul.ntlon there is sp.arse and scattered. Reading this pamphlet, one gets an idea of what it means for such a population to attempt to maintain two school s.vstems. This pamphlet takes 108 school sections and shows that in 1804 the average attendance In no single one of them reached ton. Some of them are as low as flvc^ and the line of figures runs nine. Ave, eight, seven, six, seven, nine, and so on! Every one of them Is below ten. What would be the condition In that country if yo,, ,veT<> to insist tipon tho establishi^ont of another school system amongst these people who are struggling to maintain one system of sehools ? Would such a thing be wise y A few years ago we nad an appeal frrini (,)uebec. I reiiii'iiiber that a number of I'roteslanis from one part oi' that provliiee eanie here ami asked thi-. Hoiisf to provide nie.ans to 'ranspori tliem I lo ilie iii'iglib.iurhood ot t'jilgarv s.i iliai they nil;,'ht settle tog.'lli.'r when' they could keep up their Schools and cliuiches. ' As mi evldeii.e of the dllli.ni.y i,|- nialntalnlng these Insiituiloiis whe. populations were ■■'liar-ie, iiioy showcil ns a iiia|i of ili.it eoiini ry wlierc tlie Protestants, one by one, had been bought out by the It.iman Calliolu.s iiiilii tliey had bei'oim. disi riliui- ed ill very siiuill nniiihers, yci In niucli hug- er nuuibers ihnii .'an be I'ouiid In the set li- ed i-ouiitry dl.slrii"s in .Manllohii. And thev said : We nre unable to keep iij) onV societies, wo are unable to maintain our j churihi's, we are unable to support our I schools, be<>ause we are so few in minilier. U'heii they were as!<|.il : Wliv d.. vmi not attend the schools of the malorltv," as tin. Koman Catholics of Ontario ailend' tlie pub- lie sehools there V thi' answer was : If the sihools In (,>uel.e(.' were of the same nature :is I he public schools in Ontario where the iilt.ject Is to give a secul.ar educati.ni and Mot tea.'h the religion of any iiarticulai' church f:r^-;t, we would .send our children !:i tlieni. But In those schools thev teach I)riticlp,les that are re-arded ns Inimical to the bidlef of a rrot.'stant denomination. Therefore, we cannot send our children to their school.s, and «e are too weak to keep up oiir own scliools. is iioi iliai t::c cuiidl- lion in Manitoba V And if the (Jovernment came to the conclusion that this comlitlon o| tilings overbuiilelied the people, an.! do- cided thai it would be better lo give iheiU one system of national schools where re- ligion was not tauirht, where the tenets of no parti. 'iilar chuivii w,.rc taught, have they not strong reason f.,r doing s.) V For whatever may have been said, I have never seen it proven that any religious creed or the tenets of any particular church were taught in these schools. They so through the form .1 reading the Lord's prayer, and thev oc- casionally read w passaire of scripture ; but they have never introduced any catechism or the teaching of the dog- mas of any church. They have made a s.vsteni of national schools in which the chief desire is to give the rising licneratlou that secular education which is necessary to fit them for becoming good citizens. We are asked to compel the people of Mani- toba to go back to the dual system, and to carry on that dual system under two sots of laws, one set of schools under the con- trol of their own laws, and one under laws passed by this Parliament. ■S^^lnt must be ■ tho result ? It must ensrender a feeling of .'■trife iind resentment In the minds of the ma.1orIty which, if arou'U'd now. mav not die out wltliln the lifetime of the youngest member of this House. We .ire told that we should pass this Bill and settle the ques- 10 . I lion finally. If I could hope that this would be ii Jlnnl sottloniont of this question, 1 foutcss lliat I should lie inclined to do a >nvat den tlmt I would n-^t othorwiso do. But I rt'irard it as only the coiniucnccniont of Ihis flKht, if tliis is forced upon the peo- ple contrary to the ^vill of the majority tiiere. Now, I object to separate schools on jirin- <'iple. Rut w'liilc sayini; thai, 1 liavo no feel- ing atrainst those who regard separate schools as the right schools. Tlie ju'liu'lple which I regard as riglit in this country is to bring the diildren up togotlicr in one school, where they will learn, througli tlie associations of youth to love and resnect each other, where they will piny together, where tliey will learn to tolerate eacli other's eccentricities, and learn that human nature is human nature 'u one. tlie same as the other : wliere they will grow up to- gether, having inculcated in their minds tiio same principles of educ.it ion, science and knowledge tliat must 1m,' useful to them throughout life. I regard it as a correct principle in tlie interests of tlie state that in scliool the cliildien shall see nothing of the diversity of religion, tliough tliat may remain, and tlie church has the right to teach it, but that it shall not keep the child- ren aiiart in two liostile camps as is now being done. Tliis is essentially why I op- lioso tills Bill. I do not care whether it is a weak Bill or a strong Bill. The Bill has in it tlie principle of forcing upon an unwilling province separate schools wliich were done away with because the people regarded them as unsuitable to the requirements of the situation or the con- dition of things in their country. Then again 1 oppose it because I think tlie state ouglit to control education. I lielleve the ti-end of tlie age is towards the state control- ling education. Those of us who remember our schoolDoy days will no doubt recoiled when we went to what were called pay schools, and wo paid so much a month for the support of the teacher. There was not much difference in tlie amount of religion taught in those schools and tliat taught to- day ; Iitit tliey wen^ pjiy schools Ivcpt u)) liy voluntary subsciiptious. and kept up by those who wished to educate their children. The state in its wisdom afterwards tlioughl it necessary to take over the control of edu- cation because there was a large number ot poor children in the country wliose' parents were un.ilde or too careless to give them an (>ducation, and tliis made it possilile for a very large iierceiilage of tluun to grow tip in igorance. Believing tliat education ought to be tlie birthright of every citizen of the Brl- tisii Ihiiplre. and that intelligence is the best puarantee for good citizenship, tlie state tliouglit it riglil to give tiiem an educa- tion, and therefore it took the schools of the country under its control. Instead of having pay schools, Instead of having paro- chial schools, instead of having church schools, we have what is known as free schools controlled by the state. As soon as the free school system was iutiwluced in Upper Canada it was regarded as the best system yet devised for the people, and It has been controlled by the state from that lime to tlie present. Now, then, J ,sniu that the trend of the age is towards the state tak- ing control of education. Why do I say so ? Becausr* tlie day of private schools and paro- cliial scliools has passed away, I am streng- thened In tliat opinion by the history of other countries as well as our owu. I need not cite tiie case of Upper Canad:t, because no one would pretend to stand up to-day and .'Jay that we slioald revert to the old system of'allowiiig cliurches to keep up their schools and private individuals to keep up their school-i, :ii.stead of the state doing it. But we have gone further than that by taxing urselves for the education of cliildren wliose parents nvi\ not able to pay for it, by giving money out of tlie public treasury to support poor schools where the people are not able to ta.K themselves for it. In the province of Ontario the development of our educational system has been along that line for the last thirty or forty years, until It ia a recognized fact to-day that no one would pn'tend to deny. I say again that the trend of tlie ago is towards tree schools, as shown by what lias taken place in other countries. I take a work that I hold in my hand, and in it I And facts drawn from the history of otiier countries tvhicli streugtnen my conviction in that re- gard. According to the "Encyclopedia Britannica," Vol. 8. page 712, 1 lihd that all over Europe wlucalion is passing from the control of the clergy into the hands of the state. Europe is older than our country : it lias learned, as every country learns, by the experience of the past, and their experience has taught them the wisdom of taking the control of education from under the hands of the clergy, from under the hands of the church, and transferring it to the control of the state. The same is said to be true even in Mexico, and Cimtral America, and in Soutli America. Then when I come to look at some other countries I tind that in Ire- land, that benighted country, where it ts sometimes said the people are steeped in Ig- norance, they have a system of national sciiools. Under the national school system of Ireland, Roman Catholics and Protestants are educated together. They have learned by experience the folly of keeping children ajiart when they are educated, because si>parate education, instead of liarmonizing opposing sentiments and feelings, tends to accentuate them, tends to make them worse. Tiierefore, the wisdom of the adiniuistmtion of Ireland has led them to devise what mi gilt he regarded as a national school sys- tem. Australia has also come to the same pouelusion, because tlie common school sys- ten of Au.stralia is based on the principles of iierfect religious freedom, and the non- establishment of any particular form of religious belief, I need not give the history 11 As soon as [i-wlueoil In as the best opie, aud It e from Ihat , I sniii that state tak- lo 1 say s^o ? )ls and paro- 1 am streng- tory of other I need not boeause no to-day aud e old system their schools p up their ing it. But it by taxing of cliildren ay for it, by treasury to ' people are r it. In the imeut of our )ng that line ■r,, until it is one would lat tlie trend schools, as ice in other hat I hold lind facts er countries 1 in that re- ijucyclopedia find that all ng from the i.'iuds of the ' country : it -arns, by the r experience f tailing the '.r the hands jauds of the le control of 1)6 true even ca, and In I'ome to look tliat in Ire- where it is teeped in ig- of national ?hooi system 1 Protestants lave learned ling children ed, because liarmonizing js, tends to them worse, lininistration levise what 1 school sys- to the same 1 .sclinol sys- lio principles nd the non- \r form of s the history tin, L^?'-'*'^,^*'?^^^ '° I'^^^^^l to this ques- w= «„%" Js doulJtless well known to niem- nt ,>,nnV "•'' ^l""^''- '^1^'ouKU attempt after attempt has been made by th.> Roman trfhw,!"'!', "''V'' ''" l^one.sty, iu all sincerity, to bring the educational affairs of ihat couul tiy under the control of their church as they have uo doubt a perfect right to attempt to do. I say that great country, wliicli is re- gaided as in the forefront of advancimieut and civilization to-day, lias never a.ccpted the priucipie of separate scliools. and has ever allowed education to pass from under her con roJ. To-day lier schools are free to Sh «^»f'it'''l together in all stati-sup- poited schools. Denominational lehgion is not taught in her schools, but the principles ot religion that are common to all, are in culcated in many of iliem. 1 know some- thmg about the schools iu the Unit..! Statel : because I passed some time iu her education- ; al institutions; and altlioimh the state tcjic'ies ' some of the doctrines of religion tliat are common to all creeds, the same as are iau"ht in many parts of this country, 1 heard "no obejction trom any I,loiiian Catholic. An I a tliougl,, as 1 s.ay, application has l,een schools, the state has never abandoned her control of education. Xo doubt some lion gentlemen will rememl)er that two or tlire^ years . ago the question was aslvcd of onr of lie high dignitaries of the IJcm.an Catliolie Church of the United States. Mons. Satolii +, , .,^ "' church in the United States alUnv the children of Roman Catholics to lie edu- cated in what were commonly called godless schools, and the answer was that under IIr. circumstances, they could do so ; under th.> circumstances tliey were at liberty to send their children to the public schools. The Roman Catholics do not enojy the privilege of separate schools there, as they do hel^^ Aow, then, in Mexico also, free ,,ubli,. schools have been established, and whoever sends a chihl to a parochial school is lined Jivxpenenre has proven the wisdom of ure- venting parochial schools from controlling the education of the country, and the state has madi: it a punishable offence for auv one to send a child to a parochial scluiol. oii this question I find some facts quoted bv Dr Sidney. In the Republic of Central Am'erica children between the ages of eight and fourteen years are required to attend publie schools. Edu-ation is free, compulsorv. and iinder state control. Then I come to 'soutli America, to the republics of that continent with their uO,oao,(iOO of population, and what system do we And there ? Until twenty years ago the education of the children was carried on iu parochial schools and under thi> control of the clergy, l)ut experience ha« shown the unwisdom of that svst(>m of edu- cation, and they have chnngod it -^rheir scliools now are public, under state control and compulsory, The education of that great country Is to-day closely modelled after ' J\l • f n prevailing iu the state of Michl- ; >,.in. In that great country of dftv millions people, whoever sends a ehiid lo a p!aro- elii;.l school IS lined, and the parochial schools have been closed. Free schools haye iH'ou establisl.e.i iu Uruguay, and Venezuela^ uiuei a syst.m much the saiiK; as that nre- yadiug lu other republics I have inentioned. 1 dim? /,"""'; ^" -"^''"' «''"»-^^vi(.k, .and we I'd tl at they have practically suite schools Hioy have state schools in the j.rovince of -Nova SCO ia. they have state W-hools h, I'riiice Edward Island. Then. I sav I ■in, .lusiuicd in the conclusion that i!ii. trend o'' 111'' age IS towards the state controlliug the edueaiion of the country. Why, I aslc. shoul.I .\Jaiiiioli;i be compelled to go back to what IS lejiUy an obsolete, an uii.satisfactory and an unsuitiible condition of things for the ,' needs ,,f that province ? Uor that reason : ag.un. I am opposed to tliis Bill. Xow Sir j M-e "vo told that we have a ri-ht to h-is- la; ecause there is a grievance. What law .las ever been passed restricting a mau's rights, that does not leave a grievance b'- nind It .' Is there any law that restricts us many walk of life that does not give rise to some grieviiiiee, if we are to consult our (,wn leelmgs wlu'u ri-lits have been taken awav liom u.s V But if, ill ihe interest of the state, lu the interest of humanity, it is necessary even to create a grievance by takiui: away certain riglits, the state is justiUed in taking away those rights in tlie interest of the vv'hole. And though there may Iw a grievance be-" hmd It, it is no jusiiiieatioii for going back to tlie old condition of thiims simply be- cause it is a grievance. Was there not a grH>vance iu Xew Brunswick when the provincial government took control of the scliools and changed the system ? Tlie Minister of Marine and Fi'slieries fought tliat question eloquently in this House, de- claring tliere was a grievance' and a verv .serious griev.-ince. But when Sir .Tolin Mac- donald was appealed to. he refused to give back what they regarded as th(>ir rights because, lie said, it was the rii.dit of a' iiro- vince to control that matter, and he inform- ed them that it was their duty to go to the highest tribunal, the people, aud fight out the question th(>re. He told them to go (ir.st to the provincial legislature, and then to go to the peoi>le. because the people had the poAver to cliange the representation in the legislature. He told the representatives Of the minority to go before the people and convince thein that their demand Avas a right and .lust one, and, he .s.aid, there was suincient justice in humanity to grant what Mr. COSTIGAX. Perhaps the hon, gen- tleman will permit me an explanation, as he referred lo me by name. He has stated that the late Sir .Tohn -Macdonald, when ap- i)e,a ed io by the mlnorily of Xew Bruns- w ck told them that he could give tliem no relief, but to go to the legislature. [ think the hon. gentleman will find that there they 12 were sent, uot to the leglslatni'o. but to the courts, aud the Judicial Conuuittee of the Privy Couucil. Mr SPROUl.K. 1 read the discussion a ; fo'w days ago. The couteiuioii is that the ; courts of justice oiler uo redress aud, there- Um\ the people have lo come here tor re- dress, aud Ihat the British North America \ct couteuiplated that we should coiue here for rcdriss. But the uuderslaudiug, as ex- pressed by Sir Johu Macdonald, was that YOU uiust go baclv to your own legislature, ■aid if v.)u do uot obtain relict there, tlicu appeal to the electors, because they can put out the mendjers of the legislature ; but, m Sir .lohu Macdouald's opinion, we haU no right to interfere. I read the debate iu tins wav, and I am in the judgment of those who have read it as v\'ell as myself. .„ , „. Will Manitoba settle this question if lett •done ■' I believe, if Manitoba Vv-ere left alone Fhe would ultimately settle it ; per- h'lps llie minority would not got all they expect or claim, but the province would =otile it as satisfactorily as it was settled ill New Bruuswiclv, Prince Edward Island. Nova Scotia, and the other provijices. I iiave sulli''ient respect for the judgment and f-iirnes'^i of the people of that great conn- trv niaiiv nf whom went there from On- tnrio aud Ouobec, to believe that they do not want to act unfairly to any of the peo- ple there, and If left alone they would set- tle the question in a way that would be satisfactory to the minority after a time. 'VhK minority are talcing advantagi> of the law wliich exists there to-day. and I find tliev arc bringing the schools uiidin- the con- trol of the law in increasing numbers every year. I have, therefore, the right to assume that not very great dissatisfaction exists tliere. , , , „ , Who are clamouring for this law .' Are the people of Manitoba clamouring for it V It is true that a largely signed petition has been sent here asking for the change, and I cannot shut my eyes to that fact ; but it was got up. I am credibly informed, by the lii(M'archv. and was signed by people who were asked to sign it, and tliey sent down the pelltion. This was ; n right. But the greater clamour comes from tlie province of Ouebec, mtiny of whose people know little ot the situation, whether separate schools joined with national schools can be work- ed or not. They are forcing the issue, and they are the party who are forcing the figlit on tlie situation to-day. I do not believe. If thev knew the situation as well as the people there do, if they knew the dilttculties that Manitoba has to contend with, they would fight strongly and Insist so vigor- ouslv in forcing on an unwilling people a measure that is not desired there, and compel them to restore the school system which was abolished because it did not suit them. . ,, , . . There are some features of this contest that attract my attention at the present time, and which must attract public atten- tion. One is the voice of the bishops aud clergy on the question. We all understand that it is a serious ofCence to interfere with the rights of a member of Parliament In the discliarge of his legislative duties or- to intimidate him. Tliose of us who know any- thing about the Roman Catholic religion, are aware that it is a very serious thing to take away from any member of that church the rights of the church, to tell a man who believes that through that church alone he can find salvation, tliat the ecclesiastical authorities will taiie away from him the i-i"lits of the church. I believe it to be a ve'rv serious threat when you tell any man discharging his duties as a member of I ar- liament. or is about to go back to the elect- ors for endorsation or otherwise, that if vou do so and so the church will declare you to be no longer a Roman Catholic. I have here a slatement which was put out a few davs ago. and it seems to me a very serious matter with respect to Roman Catholics In this House. I am sorry to mention it. and I do uot do it for the purpose of creating any feeling, because 1 know it may make some lion, members who are Roman Catho- lics feel that I am doing what I should not, as a Protestant do, iu speaking of it. But I 'only speak of it because of the sentimejits enunciated bv t. - leader of the Opposition the other night. That hon. gentleman said: U'l'ile 1 love my church and revere my church, and respect my church, yet in the discharge of my duty as a I^ilierai in this House, following the principles of Liberalism as enunciated, known and carried out by the great Reformers of tlie British Empire, 1 refuse to be control- led in the discharge of my duty even by my church, because i regard it as the first duty of a member of Parliament to do his duty to the state, and while 1 am unwilling to come into conflict with my church, I be- lieve I know tlio situation better than they do • I do not regard it as offensive liecause tlie'v imagine they ra-c right in doing so ; and I think they are rather objects tor sympathy than otherwise. Father La- combe a very respectable missionary— I do not blame him for his- utterance, because he thouglit he was doing riglit. and doing what he conceived to be his duty-declared that no man who opposed this Remedial Bill would be regarded as a Catholic. He said : If, which may God not grant, you do not be- lieve It to bo your duty to accede to our just demands, and that tlie Government, which is anxious to give us the promised law, be beaten aud overthrown while keeping firm to the end ol the struggle, I Inform you, with regret, that the Episcopacy, like one man, united to the clergy, will rise to support those who may have fallen to defend us. Archbishop Langevln of St. Boniface , has stated his views In these words : It has been said, falsely, that the Cathollo hierarchy in this Dominion of ours Is to settle 13 )ublic atten- blshops and I understand iterfere with irliament la duties or- to 10 Icuow auy- !)lic religion, ious thing to ' that church 1 a man who rch alone he ecclesiastical cm him the e it to be a ioll any man mbor of Par- to the elect- vise, that if 11 doclare you lolic. I have ut out a few , very serious Catholics in >nlion it. and e of creating it may make {oman Catho- I should not, \e of it. But he sentimejits he Opposition utleman said: d revere my lurch, yet in as a Liberal he principles ated, known Reformers of to be control- y even by my the first duty do bis duty 1 unwilling to church, I be- ttor than they msive because in doing so ; n- objects for Father La- ssionary— I do •ance, becatise Clit. and doing duty— declared this Remedial Catholic. He you do not be- lede to our just iment, whloh is 1 law, be beaten rm to tlie end ot regret, that the id to the clergy, may have fallen St. Boniface ! words : bat the CathoUo ours Is to settle the school question. No, the Catholic hierarchy— you know It, and I can say It plainly— the Catho- lic hierarchy leads the Catholics In their reli- gious conviction, and all those who do not follow the hierarchy are not Catholics. And he has instructed them that this was clearly their duty, because the church in- structed them in their line of conscience, by telling them that it was their duty to support the Bill which gives back tliese rights to the church. When the hierarchy has spoken there is no use for any Catholic to say to the contrary, for If he does he is no longer a Catholic. Such a man may carry the title, but I declare this as a bishop : I say U.-night, and I say it with plain authority, a Catholic who docs not follow the hierarchy on the school question is no more a Catholic, and who will be the one to entitle such a one to the name ot Catholic ? Where is the society or government who will give him the right to call himself a Catholic when I in my authority as a C;uhoIic bishop, deciaru that such a man has no right to 'he name. Then, I say, the bishop is putting them out- side the pale of tlie church, and that iis a vei-y serious matter lor Catholics, .sjr. i regard that as a most unfortunate ihing, because it is Interl'orinfi' with what must people in this country look upon as rlie riglit of every member of Parliament to do, naioe- ly. to follow the dictates of his o-\vn judg- ment in matters where the state must con- trol, and where the state must be above the church and above religion, and where members believe that they know the condi- tion of things better than the men wlio are attempting to give advice. I do not blame the clergy of the Roman Catholic Churcli for doing so. I do not blame them for bring- ing e\ery influence they can to bear upon the church to do so, but I think it is un- fortunate that that influence should be brought to bear. A man who has the cour- age of his convictions, and who has the manhood and the integrity to say : In the face of all that, I regard my duty to the state as so and so, and I sliall carry it out, notwithstanding the fact tliat 1 may bo buried under the anathema of the church, and notwithstanding that the whole church shall be arrayed against me. and support the party opposed to me ; 1 s.ay that the man who has the moral courage to say that will be endorsed by the people of this country. They will regard him with respect and honour, and they will look upon him as a greater statesman than they did before. This is one of the features of this con- test which makes me to-day go very strongly against this Bill. AVe are told that if we do not legislate In this case, Quebec may take away the rights from the Protestants of that province. I was glad to hear the hon. member for Three Rivers (Sir Hector Langevln) speak In the generous and manly tone he did this .iftornnnn, wlion ho gaiil that whether the minority In Manitoba "ot their rights or not, Quebec would never de- scend to any principle so low. I nlwa;, ,? had a high opinion of the Fj'cnch-Canadian people. I always regarded them as chival- rous, jis honourable, and as disposed to do right to the minority down there. But above and I)eyoud all that, I say that \\liether we le,i;islati' or do not legi.slate, the ri^lits of tlu> minority are not in danger in tliat pro- vince. Tliero was a solemn compact enter- ed info witlj the province of tjueliec in this mjitter, and I believe that no person would dare to break up the original contract which was entered into bet\A-een tlie two Canadas lieforc confederation, and embodied in the Confederation Act of 18(17. And should the peoplu down iu tliat country wish to legi.s- late upon that question, and if tliey felt as strongly on it as do tlie people of Manitoba would ilio people of Manitol)a lie disposed to luterfere with their rights V I think thev would not. And if tlie people of Quebec came to this House would they be inclined to regard with qaietness and courtesv any ctlort that was made to interfere witli their rights. I think they would not. They would be the very strongest to create an agita- tion tliat would be lai-ge in its proportions and dangei'ous in its results, if they were not allowed to control their rights, as tliey were allowed in the Jesuits' Estates case. They would tell us that any legisla- tion against them was an interference with the riglits belousiug to tiieir iirovince, and they would not brook any interference. Xow wiiat should the Government do with this (luestion at tlie present time V I say they sliould leave it to the people of the province ot Manitoba to deal with as in their judg- ment they think best. That was what tliev sliould have done in the Urst place. While the .ludicial Committee of the Privv Coun- cil said to tlie minority : You liave the rl"ht to appeal, what did that mean V Some say that the Government are now only carry- ing out the judgiiient of the Privy 'council I do not so uuderst.'iiid it. Altliough that was very fiercely contended a few mouths ago. no member of tlie Cabinet to-day will say that the Government is obliged to take this course because of the Judgment of the I'rivy Council. That judgment of the Privy Council was an opinion in the natur(> of ad- vice to the Governor in Council here. It told them that the minority had tlie ri"-ht to appeal to them for a hearing of their case That was all. They heard that case, and according to their judgment and wisdom they could say either " yes," or " no," you have a grievance and we will change that law, or we will not change it. It was e(iually their right to say : Ve will not in- t(H-fere with ilanifolia. or we will interfere It was the right of this Government to say •' If the circumstances are such that we oug'ht to interfere, then we can interfere with it ; or. if the condition of things are such iii Manitoba that they c.innot successfullv carry on two educational systems, we shall 'not lii- terfere with it. But. Sir. this Government were equally at liberty to say either one 14 or the other. There Is no judgment of the Privy Council telling this Government to Interfere or not to interfere. Now, we are toUl that If this Bill is pn.s.sed the light will be over. Well, Sir, if 1 be- lieved that, I would bo iuoliued to go a long way. I would be disposed to do many thiiijrs 1 would not otlierwise wish to do, if I thought that the passing of this Bill would be a (iiiality in this matter. But, Sir, enn I shut my eyes to tlie agitation going on in tlie country to-day V Can 1 shut my eyes to the unanimity of sentiment in Mani- toba, where three elections have been run on that (luestion, and where there has been a majority in favour of the riglits of tlie l)rovince every time. Can I slr.U my eyes to the fact, as we are told, tliat at le;ist 85 per cent of the people of ."\ianitoba are in favour of allowing tliat province to work out her own destinies according to tlie law she lias placed upon the statute-book ? Can I shut my eyes to tlie fact tlint all over the country there is no defence of the action of the (lovernment by tlie press of the coun- try who gauge ond educate public senti- ment ? Can 1 shut my eyes to the fact that there has been scarcely a gathering all over this Dominion, which says to this Government : Go on and do what you are doing to-day. No. Sir, it is the very reverse. I therefore say Lliar I have no riglit to as- same that the passage of this Bl'l would be the end of this contest. I do not believe that the heartburnings and the strife that Is raised to-day, would all die out in a few months if we force Manitol)a to do as she is not iucllued to do. I believe that the sen- timent of the country does not justify any interference witli the province of Manitoba in this matter. 1 believe that public senti- ment of till! country is, that there shall be no interf. yence. \ow thi-n. what will be the result to the present Government if they persist in presy- Ing this Bill. It must in my judgment in- evitably result either in their defeat in tuls House, or in their defeat in the country. It may be said that the country has not spoken. We have often asked them of late to appeal to the country, and we have said, that al- though we believe public sentiment is against you, yet if you appeal to the coimtry, and If the voice of the country says, pass tliat law, you will be justified in doing it. But they have not appealed to the country, nor given the electorate an opportunity to speak. If they are defeated in this House tliey must appeal to the country, and if then the judg- ment of the electoiate is that the Govern- ment shall go on with the measure, then they will be justified. The Government will be fortified with public opinion behind them, and they will be fortified with the support of many friends in this House who are op- posing them to-day. Sir. If I know anything about the public sentiment of the country, I say it is all adverse to the policy of the Government in this matter. Mr. Speaker, I can only express regret, as I did at the be- ginning of this debate, that lam obliged to place myself in opposition to the Govern- ment of the day. However, I do not believe that I am in opposition to the sentiment of j the Conservative party of this countvy 1 when 1 oppose the Government. I be- lieve that the Government is against public opinion, and that I am with public opinion in doing as I am do- ing now. I believa I am in harmony with ' the sentiments of the people of Ontario to- day, when 1 am standing as 1 am against I the Government on thi.s question. I believe that I am also in harmony with the senti- i meats of the people of Manitoba when I stand up here to oppose the Government on this occasion. 1 believe, too, tliat I am in harmony with the people of the North- west Territories, because the same dillicul- I ty is looming up there, and that is anotlier I reason which leads me to think that this ' liglit will not be endi'd soon. If we are suc- ci'.-sful in forcing Manitoba to-day, the next thing will be to force us to repeal the law which gave national schools to the North- west Territories. The Catholic s regard themselves as having a grievance there the same as in Manitoba. Archbishop i.augevln said so at Edmonton, I believe. He said : We are not reconciled to the laws whicli have been put on the statute- book of the North-west Territories ; the national scliools there do not satisfy us any more than the national schools in Manitoba. Therefoie, I say tliat if the parties who are forcing on this remedial legislation succeed in getting it, tlie fight will commence in the North-west Territories as soon as the Bill is passed. The school Bill passed in the North-west Assembly has been held in abey- ance, and has not yet received the assent of the Lieutenant-Governor. Why Is It held in abeyance ? Because the clergy do not approve of it. Now, I would venture to ask this Government, as the authority either to veto that law or to allow it' to go into operation, what they intend to do with it ? Do they xutend to give the people of the North-west Territories the right to con- tiol education, or do they intend to veto that law ? And if they veto it, will they start the light there which they started on be- half of the minority in Manitoba ? Will they continue that fight also for five years, until they secure in the North-west Terri- tories what they wish to secure in Mani- toba to-day. I say that this justifies us In believing that the fight will not be ended by this Bill ; but that the passage of this Bill would be only the commencement of the fight. The fight must go on, though this Parliament must go to the country, and though dozens of membi^rs who siipport the Bill to-day may be left at home by an exasperated electorate. As ,Tohn Sandfleld Macdor.nld said at the time- of the birth of confederation, if you take from the majoi-ity the right to control education, you do not settle the question for ever. It will L 15 \ at the be- 1 obliged to lie (ioveru- not beliovo ;ntiineut of is country lit. 1 bti- is iigaiuBt am wltli [ am do- mony with Ontario to- im against . I believe I the sentl- a when I Jovernniout tliat 1 am the North- me (litticul- is another that this ;ve are sue- y, the next al the law the North- i cousoQuencos may not Iw serious ; l)ut we ali know what tiie feeling of t„ > people of Manitoba was when we were obliged to hark back and repeal the nionopolv olnus(> in the Canadian Pacilic Railway Act'; and if we force this measure upon tliem, the re- sults may be serious, not only to tliat coun- try, but to confederation, ln'cause it tends to destroy provincial autonomy. Then I say, in tlie interests of ali the proviiic(>s of this great Dominion, in tiie interests of tlie people of tliat country, who live under a con- dition of things entirely different from the condition of tilings here or in tlie province of Quebec, let them eniov the ri"lits they are entitled to ; let thein adopt laws suited to their conditions an envifoiuneiit, and carry out those laws according to tlielr will, so long ns they are doing no sul)stantial injustice to any portion of tlie people. I'ov these reasons I am about to vote against thi j Bill. I am sometimes told, tliat. in voting against the Government on this Bill, I nm voting for the Opposition. Well, it is for- tunate that we can'somotiines in(>et, even if we do not always meet. If I think tlie Op- position are right, I am generous enough i and glad enough to record my vote with theirs. I want to see the Bill killed ; the Oi'position are moving with the same eml in view, tlu-refore, wo vote togetlier. I do not regard It as an unmixed evil that I am voting witii tliein. I do not regard it as an unmixed evil that I am voting against th" tJoverument, wliieh I have loyallv supported these seventeen years, becau.se l' think they .ire wrong on this (luestion, and it is my duty to vote as I tliiuk right. Feeling, af. "l do, that tlie liest tiling we can do in the inti^rcst of the country is to kill this Bill, 1 intend to vote for the motion lunde by the leader of the Opposition ; and I was" glad that he made that motion, because it gives us jin opportunity to vote straiglit against tliis Bill, and to kill it, if possible. On other lines I am with tlie Government. Tliey mav see lit to reance, and with such understanding as I have, on every measure that conies before this House Tlu'refore, regarding tliis Bill as a most ob- noxious one. not only as doing awny witli a system of educniion tliat is tlie very best for tlie rising generation, but as taking" away from the province of Manitoba tlie right of control in educational matters, wh'ch it ought to enjoy, I shall have much pleasure in voting for tlie six inontns' hoist.