■.% r. y^^ y^yii. \y ^» IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (NlT-3) // {./ 4 &, ^ii u. Ma I*- 1.0 I.I 11.25 11.4 11.6 «£ 1^ 112.2 - 6" ^ P> /l >•? Photographic Sciences CoTpomtion 73 W«T MAIN ST««T WiMTK.N.V M5M (/16) 175-45^3 % IN TIIK HOUSE OF COMMONS, OF CANADA, On TUESDAY, MARCH 9th, 1S80, HY SIR SAMUEL L. TILLEY, SfH SAMUEL L. TILLEY, in moving the House into Coumultee of Supply, said : — Mr. speaker, in moving tlie ITovise into Committee of Ways and Means, I desire to make my financial statement. When I had the honor of addressing this House on tlie motion to go into Committee of Ways and Means, hist Session, I took the liberty of calling attention to the difler- ent position I occuined on that occasion to the position 1 occupied as Finance Minister in 1873. I briefly referred to the fact that in the period mentioned (1873), the country was prosperous, and the Treasury overflowing. Last year, when I made my statement, I l)ad to admit tl.at the Treasury was net over- flowing, and the country not so prosi)erous as we could desire. The Govern- ment realized at that time the difliculties experienced in meeting the House under such circumstances. These difllculties were, however, din\inished from the fact that the right hon. gentleman who now leads the Government had, when leader of the ( )pi)osition, submitted resolutions to the House of Com- mons propounding a certain policy which was at that time rejected by Parlia- ment, but subsequently aflirmed by an overwhelming majority of the i)eople of the Dominion. In dealing, therefore, with the most important subject which could receive consideration — and difficult as it wns, we felt we had behind lis and in the country a sentiment in favor of the ])')licy that we were about to submit— the difficulty was to jn-epare that policy, and arrange it« details in such a manner as to make it not only accei»table to oi-.r supporters in Parliatoont, but to render it universally acceptable, if possilile, to the Do- %^- Wo minion. \vo exi)eriencea Jess diilioulty than we would liiive uiuler other oircumstances, because all those ])oints had been previously considered and discussed throughout the length and breadth of the country. But, as I have just stated, the difficulty was to harmonize the views and sentiments, not only of our supporters in the House, but of our friends out of the House, so that the proposals in their operation should not bear unfairly or unjustly oa any portion of the Dominion. Well, Sir, the Government ai)plied themselves to this task, and we had the satisfaction of feeling, at tlie close of the Session, that there was a general concurrence of opinion in the House and out of it, that the members of Parliament had redeemed their pledges, that the Liberal- Conservative i)arty had cnjried out its promises, that the Government had fulfilled its pledges ; and there was every reason to expect and hope that the policy was not only acceptable to our supporters, but would ])rove beneficial to the country. It will be our duty, presently, to consider how far our hopes and expectations in that respect have been realized. But, Sir, our dilliculties were not confined to the question of the Tariff; they extended to the question of finance. Why, Sir, it was shown by tiie statements then submitted to the House in the Public Accounts, that for three or four years there had been a steady decline in the revenue as compared with the expenditure, and that the deficiency had reached for three years i)receding, and as we estimated for the fourth year, an average of $1,750,000. It became necessary, 'therefore, for the Goverinnent to consider what steps could be best taken while they were carrying out their policy with regard to the advancement of the industries of the country, at the same time to increase the revenues of the Dominion. O ir ditBculties wee not confined to the jjroviding for the deficiencies to which I refer. The Government found that heavy engagements had been made by their predecessors for public works, embracing a great extension of our canal and railway systems. They had entered into engagements for the construc- tion of canals involving an expenditure of millions of dollars, which tlio present (Government were bound to carry out, and to pi-ovido the means for. In passing, I may remavk, that I recollect perfectly well the time when the Government proposal Lo ccn.struct additional canals was submitted ; it was not objected to by hon. gentlemen in the Opposition, because it was found that it was then deemed advisable and necessary tliat employment should bo given to the peoi)le, thousands ot whom were idle ; ami it is rather a strikino- oommenta.y on the present state of affiurs, that it the present day you do not hear, notwithstanding we are told that great depression exists, any propo- sition coming from either side of the House to construct public works, *solel" or largely, to give employment to unemp'oyed peoi)le. But such was the case, and such engagements were entered into. Proposals had been made by our i)redecessors ; contracts had been entered into involving a large expcndi- m^ t #! 0^ t.ire for the extension of the railway towards Nipissing ; for works west of Keel river and east of Winnipeg, and for tlie con.pletion of the Pembina Branch ; and tenders had, moreover, been asked for 120 miles of railway in British Columbia. All these engagements required large sums of money ,^and added largely to the annual interest; therefore we had not only to provide for a deficiency of two millions a year, as was then estimated, but we had to look forward to an increased expenditure in the shape of interest on the Pub- he Debt, amounting to from !|4eO,000 to $5 0,000 a year. It was under these cn-cumstances that the Government, having to assume heavy en<.,iae. nients, were called upon to give the subject their most careful consideration Difficult as was our position at that tinie, the difficulty was increased from the ftvct that the late Administration had so arranged the expenditure for the Pacific Railway that to make it effective it became necessary that a very expensive link should be completed, in order that we might have the advan- tage, with the least possible delay, of the money which had already been expended. It became necessary for the Government at once to undertake the work of building 180 miles of railway, to connect the head of Lake Superior with Winnipeg, p most expensive public work ; and it was not only our duty to put it under contract at once, but to stipulate that it should be completed with the least possible delay, in order that the expenditure on the works already carried out should be made effective and beneficial, and that the country might be opened for settlement and development. Well, Sir, what did the Government find in addition to that ? In addition to the' pro'vidina for the construction of the roads named, it was deemed necessary to add to our expenditure, and with the least possible delay, by piovidincr for the building of«00 or 220 n.iles west of Winnipeg, in order that, when the road was opened from the head of Lake Superior to Winnipeg, we should have the fertile country west of Winnipeg open for settlement, so that we might have the advantage and benefit of the expenditure so far made. As you will understand, Mr. Speaker, these new works involved a large additional outlay and I may say we feel that in making it we have acted in accordance with the wishes and opinions of our friends in and out of the House, whose desire, in common with that of the whole people of the country, is that the North- West may be opened up, and that the old portions of the Dominion may derive the benefits, direct and indirect, of its development. Sir, if the Government could have had their own way in the matter, apart from other considerations, they would have desired that the expenditure om public works, chargeable to capital, should not have exceeJed five or six millions a year • but, under the cii-cumstances which I have related, engagements had to be met which M'ill involve, perhaps, the expenditure of twelve millions during the currei.t year, and twelve or thirteen during next year. The House will 4 understand, under these circunistance.'j, tliat our difliculties are great, and tliat they are not diminished by the fact that we have to provide, not onlj for this hirge expenditure, and for the deficiency of two millions a year, but for a sum largely in excess of two millions. Sir, if the deficiency in the last year had only been what was estimated, our difficulties would have been less to-day than they are. I desire, Sir, in order that we may understand this matter fully, in order that our position with reference to the expenditure of the current year and of next year may be fully understood) to state that the deficiency of last year, instead of being two millions — when we take into account the fact that under the expected change in the Tarift' we i-eceived in that year properly belonging to this $700,000 of Customs more than v;e would have received had ic not been proposed to change the Tariff, and that we also received $000,000 from Excise for the same reason — would have been $3,400,000. Mr. MILLS — Hear, hear. Sir SAMUEL L. TILLEY— A gentleman opporsite says " Hear, hear." I may ex])lain upon what basis I make that statement to the House. In the first place, let me call the attention of the House to the estimate submitted by the la:; Finance Minister as to the receipts and expenditures for 1878-79. The lion, gentleman estimated that the receipts from Customs would be $13,750,000, and the receipts were $12,900,059. I stated that experience has shown that $700,000 of that was received as the result of the large importation of February and March of last year, and properly belongs to this year, and would not have been received had there been no prospective change in the Tariff. The Excise receipts were estimated by the hon. gentleman to be $5,250,000. They were $5,390,703. It is now clearly established. Sir, that had there been no proposed change in the Excise daties, $000,000 less would have been received during that period, and it should be credited to this year. The hon. gentleman estimated the receipts from bill stamps at $250,000; they iTcre $188,000. He estimated the receipts from the Post Office Department at $1,200,000 ; they were $1,172,000. He estimated the revenue from Public Works and Canals at $1,900,000; it was $1,803,149. The interest on investments he estimated at $300,000; the receipts were $592,800. The receipts from all other sources he estimated at $700,000 ; they were $^2,700. The estiiiates as a whole amounted to $23,850,000; the receipts were $J2,517,380. Deduct from that the $1,300,006 on imports and Excise, which would not have been received had there been no prospective change in the Tariff, and the receipts would have been $21,217,380. Now, then, in reference to the expenditure. The estimated expenditure was $23,009,073 ; the actual expenditure reached f!- I ■ i I' r •»• $24,455,381. Of tliis expenditure, I may say that there A\as an under- estimatef..r interest of $285,891. This is,>f course, a charge provided for by law, but the payments under thii=$ head were !$285,8yi in excess of the estimate. There were also the following under-esti mates :— Charges of management to the extent of $92,180 ; on sinking fund, $146,992 ; on election expenses, $92,757 ; on pensions, $5,323 ; on superannuation, $3,521 ; on sub- sidies, $21,901; and the Supplementary Estimates,$G27,000. I do. not know that tlie hon. member desires mo to give the details of the increased ir\terest, but I hold a statement of it in my hand, showing it to amount to $285,000. Uut I may say here that, while the expenditure reached, as I stated, $24,445,381, the lapsed l)alances, as will be seen by the statement laid on the Table of the House at the request of hon. gentlemen opposite, amount to about $700,000. Had the $742,938 of lapsed balances been expended by the present Administration, the deficiency would have been $4,1G1,8GG. But 1 do not purpose. Sir, to charge hon. gentlemen opposite with the amount unexpended, because we know that there are always lapsed balances. Mr. ANGLTN— Hear, hear. Siu SAMUEL L. TILLEY— The hon. member for Giouces'.er says " Hear, hear." It is quits clear. Sir, that the deficiency, if it had not been for the $1,300,000 that was received as a result of the chan -^vs in the Tariff, and the largely increased revenues in the Customs and Exci.s -, during January and February, would have been $3,482,917. But, Sir, it will be quite readily vinderstood, I think, that, under these circumstances, while we were basing our calculation for the future upon a deficiency of $2,000,000, we practically had to deal with a deficiency of overthree millions of dolUirs, and it will not bo . surprising if our previous expectations with reference to the balances of the current year are not entirely realised. Sir, it means not onlv an increased expenditure for the current year of over a million on this basis, but ib means an increased expenditure of a million a vear for future years. We must necessarily see, in making our calculations for the future, whether we can possibly, with the greatest economy, make the two ends meet. There may be some criticism with refer- ence to the exi)enditure for which Supplementary Estimates were asked last year. I have gone into the different items of Avhich they were formed, and I find that they con'.ained items amounting to about $100,000 in all, for which the present Government are responsible. I know hon. gentlemen oi)posite may say, " You asked in that vote for an additional sum for railways." We know, Sir, that the expeuditure for the Intercolonial Railway for that year exceeded very largely the estimate by our hon. friends opposite ; but, Sir, that addi- tional expemliture can.iat be charged upon the present Administration. The deficiency on tha^. j.ublic work reached $700,000 during last year The deficiency durmg ho first six n.ouths amounted to ^380,000; so that th. dehciency during the first six mouths of the year, for which lion. genUe.nen opposite were mainly responsible, and during the other six months, for which hey were partially responsible, was in the main the result of their aaminis- tration. Jher^fore, if we exauiine this matter with the view of ascertaining how far we were right or wrong in regard to tins proposition, it will be seen, I thmk, very clearly, that the expenditure, at all events, for which our hoh friends opposite were responsible, would have left a dericiency of at least thre. mi hons, instead of two. during that year. I „ow come to the consideration of he expenditure for the present year. 1 have prepared a revised statement of the revenue and expenditure, huvii:g regard to the experience we have Iiad down to the present time. I estimated, last year, that we would probably receive during the present year from Customs $14,500,000, exclusive of, as I stated then an estimate of $500,000, which was collected in February and March, and winch fairly and legitimately belongs to the present year, but ?ofnna V^'' ^^'^ *" '^™"'»'^^ '' ^^^O'OOO instead of ^OOOOOO Inow am firm. Sir, in the opinion that, apart from that money Gollecled last year that belongs to this year, the receipts from Customs will be, as estimated, |U.oOO,000 for this year. It has been said that the revenue up to the of 1st January does not warrant such a conclusion, but, if we will examine the amount received from Customs up to that period, and add to it even $500,000, our original estimate, we shall find that it is very nearly half the $14,500,000 estimated for the whole year, and, when we take into consideration that we have probably consumed, or that there have been thrown upon the market the goods that paid the duty last year and belonging to this, we may fairly expect during the " last SIX months of the present year to realise a sum equal to that received during the first six )nonths, $7,250,000. I may also state from the returns made up every ten days, that we received during January and February and tire first five days of this month, $450,000 more than we received du.in- the same period in 1878. Tiiis, Sir, goes to show very clearly that wo liave consumed the goods that were brought in last year, and that we shall, during the balance of this fiscal year, have increased revenues to an amount sufficient to meet the sum estimated by the Government. The estimate we now make for Excise, based upon experience to the present time, is $450,000, to which IS to be added $600,000 that we received in last year, but which properly belongs to this, and we have $1,100,000. This is n.t as largo a*s the amount estimated this day twelve months. I recollect perfectly well that hou .Gen- tlemen opposite took exception to my estimate, that we would receive from the additional 10c. per gallon on spirits $.U0,000. That h the only item in T 1 1 the revenue that sliows a falling off down to the present time. It may b« that tlie lion, gentleman was corrtct as to the causes whicli have led to that reduction, but 1 am disposed to take a dillerent view, and have arrived at the conclusion. Sir, that it is caused Viv a decreased consumption of spirits, whether it may be from the increased duty, or from the fact that the habits of the people have changed with reference to the use of this article ; but, under any cironmstances, 1 believe that it will be considered by a very large proportion of the people that, if, by an increase of the duty, the consump- tion has been diminished, the change was justified ; this is the item of all others in which Ihey would desire to see a reduction, and one the falling oft in which will not cause much regret. It was estimated that the Post Office would yield $1,200,000, and we entertain that opinion still. In the Public "Works it will be found that we estimate an increase of $50,000 over the estimate of a year ago. That arises from the fact of our taking possession of the Pembina branch of the Pacific Railway. It will be found from the Estimates now before the House, that we have asked Parliament for $50,0^1; for the management of that road. But, while we have increased the expen- diture to that extent, our increased revenue will be in proportion. With refei-ence to bill stamps, our estimate is $200,000. On interest on invest- ments it will be found that there is an increase arising in this way : From the loan which was obtained in England last vear, and from the monies which were subsequently obtained from 5 [ler cents, of the Dominion of Canada, we had more money than was required for the current year, and held over at the present moment lor the payment of liabilities due on the 1st of July next, and bearing interest ; and, therefore, the interest we are re- ceiving on that money, so held, will probably amount to $200,000 — though I have stated the amount at only $150,000— overand above what wasestimated. So that while tlie interest account on the debit side has increased, we have also an additional sum to place to the credit side of the account. Of all other revenues, it was estimated that they would amount to §700,000, and, from looking at the returns of last year and the returns so far in the present year, I think it is very [irobable that that item will not exceed $000,000, maJcing the estimated receipts for the current year $24,450,000, against a previous estimate of $24,200,000. We now come to the estimated expendi- ture. It was stated last year that it would reach $23,869,202. The Supjde- mentary Estimates shoAV that, after deducting tlie vote for items belonging to last year, af,;er deducting the items chargeable to capital, the Supplemen- tary Estimates for the current year, chargeable to income, amount to $858,922. They are made up in part by $100,000 for the relief of the sufferers in Ireland ; $201,000 for the relief of the Indians, who were in .n starving condition; $97,500 expenditure on public buildings in St. John 8 «rc more than was voted by the House ; ,$50,000 foi- the vanning expenses of the Pacific Railway ; $42,000 for repairs to canals and other items, making in all 1858,022. Then, Sir, we come to the under-estimates in interest. 1 • Lave to call attention to the fact tliat the probabilities are that the interest account of this year will exceed the estimate by §GGO,000. This increase was caused in this way : I stated a few moments -.go that the under-esti- mate of 1878 for interest was $285,891, and the basing of the estimate) of the current year ujjon the esUmated amount of interest for last year led to an error to tliat extent in the estinvaie for the current year. The error of the last year occuiTcd in the following way : the late Government probably estimated on a loan cf .£2,500,000 instead of .£3,000,000, which Avould make a large different. The G per cent, stocks th.it matured last jear and were payable by tlie Government on six months' notice, were i)robab!v estimated by my ])redecessov at 5 per cent., and as notice was rot given, the result was tl-.at ihoso securities paying G per cent, were only redeemed in December or January last, and this made a difterence of $-<.0,452. The sale of 5 per cent, stocks v^as estimated below what was sold during the year ; and then ther<} was paid to our nnancial agents in London, .$24,233 , to Morton, Rose &■ (.'onipa.iy for iuierest on temporary loans made by my predecessor, amounting to .£500,(^00, the sum of 847,893 ,, and to tl-o Bank of Montmal for teni- j>orary loans on general account (which contained a loan of £500,000}, $G4,472; interer,c on selgnorial indemnity, $25,193; a difference in the amount of the estimate of deposits iu the Sivings Bank during tiie year of .$7,532.47, ?naking altogether $288,891.87 of an nnder-estimate. As' our estimate of this year on interest accc.unt was based on that estimate, we had as the result a large inKloi--stimato under ihis head of $280,000 and odd dollars. Tiien, ,Sir, during last year a new loan was necessary. There were G per cent, debentures for .£100,000 sterling, fUling due in England on the 1st January— £G00,000 iu addition to these falling due on the Isl July mxt. There were also the .$4,000 000 of G i.ercent. securities falling due in Canada, of which the Government ga\o notice in May last that they would, at the expiration of six months either pay them, or substitute 5 per cent, securi- ties for them. The expenditure on Capital Account of ihe i)reseiit year must amount to somethuig like 810,000,000. J t was therefore decided tliat a loan sliould be negotiated, not only for (he purpose of the ])ayuient of the G per cent, liabilities falling due in Engluul, bet that wo should also be in iv ])(..si tion, in the evont of the parties hoMing (he securities in Canada, asliing for money, inste t- of their accepting 5 per cents, in lieu thereof A loan of .£.'1,000,000 was therefore |>laood on the muski-t, tJinugh (jio money whs not immediately required, as the time was considered a favourable cm. This loft the Govermnent wah a hirgo amount of money for the time being, a con- ^ ^ i! siderablo portion of xvliicli is now deposited in tlie banks of the Dominion, bearing from 3^ to 5 per cent, interest. So we liave an oifset of $250,000 •u the credit side to meet additional cliarges for interest. This swells up the intere.st account §250,000 nbove the Estimates. The whole expendiJuro ^ estimated for the current yer.r, from the Estimates now on the table of the House, is $25,478,000. The expenditure on the Intercolonial Railway will hoNvever, be ^300,000 less than the estimates, the fact being that', ^ -\ during the first six montlis of the last year there was a deficiency of .i?380,000,' and the returns show thiit for tlo first six months of the current year the deficiency is about .f 34,000. Under these circumstances, we arc prepared to state tliaf the exj^enditure will be reduced for the maintenance of Public Woi-ks $300,000 less than the estimate, and that the lapsed bahuices, which are generally Lu-ge, may be fairly estimated at $200,000, making a deduction of $500,000, leaving the estimated expenditure of the cnrrfnt year at .*? 24,9 78,000, against tlie first estimate of $24,150,000, or .$500,000 of an estimated deficiency. Now, when it is considered that the deficiency of last year, liad it not l)een for the exceptional circumstances I have named, would have been over $3,000,000, and we are enabled to show in the present year -i . deficiency of but $500,000, o.- thereabouts, I think th.at, under those circum- ^ stances, and in view of the fact that, if our predecessors liad estimated cor- lectly tlie interest for the previous years,-tho result would have been that our Estnnates would have been very nearly realised, we can justly claim that, in the first year of our Administration, our income and expenditure a;-e not far from being balanced. [ will now call tlio attention ftf the House to the estimated income and expenditure of next year. U will l)e seen by the Estimates of next year that the expenditure in placed at $25,007,203. TJie estimate is as follows : -Customs, $15,300,000. On looking into this matter very carefully, it is considered by the Government that, in ^iew of the increased prosperity in tlie countrv, in view of the « 9) increased j.rices of articles to bo imported, tlie Tarifi' as amended, Mill produce an increased revenue of $GCO,000. We expect to receive from' Excise $5,213,000. In referring to the resolutions 1 am about to submit to the House with reference to Customs, it will bo found that upon 1^ cartful consideration we cannot count on any increased rcvenuo as the result of the j)roposals to be .submitted. 1 will leave that fl"*'«tion until 1 read th- m in detail, when lion, membcis will be able to judge ■ for themselves. In reference to Excise, a proposition will bo made to the House that will probably add $200,000 to the income from that source. It lh proposed to grant lieon«es to mainifacture Canadian leaf tobacco, and that an Kxcise duty of 14c. instead of 20c. per pound will bo imposed. With reference to Public Wo.k<. indu.ling nuhvays and canals, it Ls estimated 10 that vve will receive $2,28G,000 during next year. The Estimates contain a» additional appro])ii;ition for railways not beyond what was asked for during theproscmt year, it is $100,000 less j but there is $200,000 required for working the Pacific Railway, and the -Minister of Railways assures us, and the evidence to which I have referred warrants him in making that statement, that daring the next year the income from these public works will be equal to the expenditure, and it will be found that in the estimated income w« placed a sum equal to the estimated expenditure. Bill Stamps will bring ,$208,- OOO ; interest on investments $GOO,000 ; and Post Oilice §?1, 2 10,000. I will observe here that the estimated interest on investments — ,^600,000 — is $250,- 000 less than estimated for the [)resent year, for the reason stated, tha'tthe sums of mcney that have been loaned and are now at interest, will be used in pay- ing off certain liabilities, and the result will be that our income from invest- ments will be $250,000 less next year than during the present year. From other revenues we expect $700,000, making an estimated revenue or incom» for next year of $25,51 7,000. If our expectations are realized in this matter, it will appear. Sir, that our pledges will have been redeemed, and the equili- brium between revenue and expenditure will have been restored, and thei-e n -ft very good margin, indeed, which justifies us in arriving at the conclusion that such will be the case. I take this opportunity of making the statement that we expect to ])rovide for the expenditure on Capital daring the next year partly by the balances we now have on hand. As shown by the return made to the House, out of tho thirteen millions four millions have to be paid for tho redemption of debentures on tho 1st July next. Five or six millions will therefore be available for expenditure under the heading of Capital Account during the next year, leaving over three millions as a reserve ; and tho Government pro[>ose to submit for the consideration of the House a pro- |)Osition to extend the authority already given with reference to the issue of Dominion notes. 'I ho Government propose to ask that tho amount now lixcd, beyond which a note cannot be issued, unless we iiold dollar for dollar in gold, shall be extended from twelve millions to twenty millions of d(dliss than 15 per cent, to be in gold. That will bo the ].roposi- tion that the Government will ask the House to sui-jiort. That will enable U8, with the amount of gold that will be released and three or four mil- lions additional circulation added to tho five or six millions we have now on !'-:''>d, to dispense with any neeesfsity to go into the English market to j»ruvido money for next year's expeiuliture. We will be able to secure whatever the deficiency may be from the capitalists cf tlie Dominion, at sucli a rato an will ^ ^ 11 Wtisfaotory to the country . These are bnefly the propositions that ^. subnnt wuh reference to inoon.o and expenditure during the periods to which I have referred. If there are any further details I will not detain the House now to go into iheni, but will take an opportunity to do so later on. I desire to trespass on the attention of the House for a short time in dealing ..I h the objections that were n.ade last Session, and n.ty be made again w:h. reference to our Tariff policy. I ventured, when submitting that poli.y, to remark tha. the lesolutions were not aimed specially at any par- ticular country ; still, as British subjects, owing allegiance as we do to the ^Tl 7T "^r^'f "' '"■"' '^ ^'"'' '' ''-''' ^'''^^^''^ i^^ *J'« preparation of our land that if we favored one country more than another, it wouM be Great 13riam. I recollect, and the House will recollect, the objections that were made by hon. gentlemen opposite, and the effort that was n.ade to prove that the iariffthen sub.nitted would operate more injuriously and affect mo.^ ^.specially the manufactures of Great Britain than those of the United States. Sir RICHABD J. CABTWBIGHT-Hear, hear. Sir SAMUEL L. TILLEY-Do I hear the hon. gentleman opposite say hear, hear? Ihen. Sir, we will have an opportunity of discussing this niatter fu !y. .ome gentlemen, out of Parliament, and through the press Jmvo nmde various statements upon this matter, but here on the floor of i arL-ament, where we can ],ring up facts on both sides, we can arrive at a just and accurate conclusion on the subject ; and while we could only specu- late last Session with reference to these effects, time has shown, and the evuhmce lies upon the table of this House, that instead of its operating, to the d.sad vantage cf British n>anufacturers, as compared with those of°the Unit(.l States, it has borne less heavily and affected tho.n less thin the manr.facturers of the neighboring Bcj.ublic. I have n,ado an abstract from the comparative statement of the Trade Returns for six months. The return •subnutted to the House represents the iu.ports of the last six months, that IS, Iron. July to Janmiry, in the present fiscal ye tr, compared with the first SIX months of the h.st fiscal year ; and it is fron. these returns that we a.^ able to draw some conclusions, and, I trust, accurate conclusions, witli refer- once to the eff.ct of this Tariff These returns show that the importations of iron and ste. nutn.,factures from Great Britain, in 1878, under the head of free goods, anmun(ed to .^0Gl,072. Under the head of •' free goods " this year, they amounted to $l,r,Ui),182. Under the head of dutiable, last year, tho nnports amounted to $1,1S)1,8(J7, and this year to $\,(ii^S G14 The |lutiHble goods bearing an average duty of 17^ per cent., there was a large increase. Hu increase of .$St)0 in tho imports f.om (J reat Britain under that head (Steel and Iron) in the first six .r.mth., and in 1878 the in.ports from 12 the United States riuler the free list was $148,874, and in 1879, $169,913. Under the heading of dutiable goods, last year, they were $1,725,000, against $1,288,000 in the piesent year, showing an increase in one case of $21,000, -and a falling off in the other of $500,000. Under the heading of cotton goods, as: shown by the return, in 1878 the imports from Great Britain amounted to $1,824,921, in 1879 to $2,089,812. From the United States, , in 1878, for the six months, the imports were $1,126,000 ; in 1879, $745,000. This shows a large increase in the imports from Great Britain, and a falling off of nearly $400,000 from the United States. In glassware the imports from Great Britain wore, in 1878, $70,246, and for 1879, $95,440; from the United States, $215,000 in 1878, and $180,000 in 1879. Leather man- tifactures from Great Britain in 1878, $187,000; 1879, $227,000. From tho United States, in 1878, $332,735 ; in 1879, $225,808. Undev the head of sugars, tlie imports from Great Britain in 1878 amounted to 19,173,000 lbs. ; in 1879, ^,904,000 lbs., a falling off of one-half. From the United States, in 1878, the imports were 38,000,000 lbs. ; and in 1879, 11,500,000 lbs. From the West Indies, in 1878, 4,728,000 lbs. : in 1879, 37,800,000 lbs. Tho imports of tea from Great l^iitain, in 1878, were 2,056,000 lbs. ; in 1879, 3,201,000 lbs. From the United States, in 1878, 3,516,000 lbs. ; in 1879, 1,400,000 lbs. From China and Japan, in 1878, 575,000 lbs. ; in 1879, 1,515,959 lbs. Wood manufactures, such as cabinetware, from Great Britain, in 1878, to tho value of $5,700 ; in 1879, $3,258. From the United States, in 1878, first six months, $154,000; rjame period in 1879, $46,800. Other woodenwarc— Great Britain, 1878, 85,000 ; in 1879, $20,000. From tho United States, in 1878, B201,000 ; in 1879, $199,000. Expeiionco during tho first six months with respect to the imi)orts from these two countries shows this : that tho falling < Tin the value of inj])ort3 from Groat Britain in frco and dutiable goods amounts to 7 per cent., while the decrease from the United States was 33 per cent. Then it was asyerted that tho Tariff would act un- fairly on tho English manufacturers, and subject them to a largo proportion of tho increased percentage. By referring to tho tables it will be found tliat tho increased rate of duty upon free and dutiable goods, imported from Great Britain during the six months of tho present yen r, was 19'43 per cert., against 199 under the old 'i'arill'of 1878 ; and that tho perocntago from tho United States, omitting as is proper, froni tho consideration of thi.s fpiestion, tho foreign goods that wc le imi)orted but Avere also exported, but were entered las! year for consumption, because there were no duties imposed on thorn, tho percentage of increaso has risen from 12 per cent, in 1878 to 15-3 percent, this year. In llie one case there is but an incronsn of [ per cent., while in the other there is an increa.io of 3 ['or cent, on the aseragc duty 13 '» collected on those goods. I know hon. gentlemen will very naturally ask how ic can be possible that with the increased duties imposed upon British goods the rate of duty lias only been increased \ per cent., but we must take into account the fact that the sugar that was imported last year was double that imported this year, and paid 42 per cent. What I say with respect to English imports has double effect Avhen applied to the United States, because we imported from them under the same rate of duty double the amount of sugar we imported from Great Britain, and if we liad imported the same quantity in this year it would have given the increase in the same ratio, and have made the difference 4 per cent, instead of 3. These facts go to show that, while the object, desi^'ii, and intention of the Government was not to legislate directly against any particular country, but in favour of Canadian interests, the effect of the Tariff has been to diminish less the importations from Great Britain than from the T'nited States. The next objection to the Tariff was that it would increase the cost of goo.ls and give us no revenue. The hon. gentleman ot)posite (Sir Richard J. Cartv/right), speaking on this point, said that, if the policy of the Government succeeded, if an additional impetus were given to the industries of the country, tlio Tariff would not produce the revc.nue that was proposed, and he was good enough to venture the statement on that occasion that the effect of the Tariff Avould be to in- crease the cost of goods to the consumers by six or seven or eight million dollars. You see, Mr. Speaker, that lie left something of a margin, but what the effect has been is quite clear. The returns show that the increase of the Tariff upon imports has been 4| per cent, more than it was before. We liad a'revenue of twelve millions from imports, and if you add one quarter addi- tional to thatyou do not get six, seven or eight millions, scarcely the half of it. But tlie statement was made that the Tariff would enrich the manufacturers and im[)Ovorisli the masses. On the other hand, the hon. gentleman opposite eaid, in order that lie might bo sufe in his predictions, whatever might be the circumstances, that by-and-byo the manufacturers themselves would be im- poverished, and that the whole country would be in a worse position than ever before. An hou. gentleman opposite, anticipating the discussion of this question, said the other day, and I think it was the leader of the Opposition, that half the manufacturers of Canada are dissatistied with the Tariff. I Mk. MACKENZIE : Jlear, hear. Hiu SAMUEL L. TILLEY : Web, I have not seen half the manufac- turers of Canada, but I have seen a great many of them. Knowing what would be said on tho flour of tho Houso, judging from what liad boon said in the past, 1 felt it my duty to ascertain from personal observations, as far as our manufacturing iudustiies woro concerned, what tho effect of tho Tariff 14 had really been; ano no declaration of this House, or on tiie part of the country, in favour of a chapge in the general policy of the Government. Sir, we will no doubt have it said by the gentlemen of the Opposition that the- increased cost of certain articles has been caused by the increase of the duties, but I. have here evidence to show, with reference to the leading manufacturino' interests of the country, that, beyond the increase in the cost of the raw material to the manufacturer, the people pay nothing more under this Tariff than they woidd have done under the old. I believe, Sir, that tliat can be established beyond a doubt, and, under the circumstances, I look forward to- the discussion ou this subject, not with any dread, but with a degree of satis faction, feeling that the facts wo can present will ''o most satisfactory to. tho country and to the fri.nuls of tho Niitional Policy. Ii was also said by pen tie- men opposite that this policy would create an unfriendly feelijig in Envo dinners as the hon. gentleman had when he visited St. John as Premier of Canada. Lot mo give additional evidence of the ability of the people of that Province to carry on .successfully manufacturing industries. I may tell this House that nearly every contract let since the new Tarifi came into operation, f.,r the construction of locomo- tives, snow-ploughs, cars, and turn-tables for the Intercolonial ard Pacific Railways has gone, with the exception of three locomotives and two cars, to the Province of New Brunswick, and on lowest tender. When I state further, that though the sash and door manufacturers and carriage makers are not doing what they did in 1874, boot and sho • manufactories are in successful operation ; macliinists are freely employed ; the cotton manu- factory there has doubled its capacity within the last *,six months, and is pre- paring to quadruple it. And since this policy was adopted by the House ot Commons a lock and brass fVictory has been started in ironcton, with a sub- scribed capital of $200,000, of which $00,000 luis been paid up ; that ar- rangements are being made for the establislimeut of a sugar reQnery in the same place, the necessary capital having been subscribed ; that re- cency the inhabitants of tlie town of St, Stei)Iiens were called together to consider the propriety of establishing a cotton factory there— they having sent to the United States for experts to select a site- that a site has been selected, that stock is being subscribed, that American capitalists are willing to build it and put it in operation, if their taxes are remitted for twenty years, tliat tlie oxpendllure involved in such an enterprise will bo between ^300,000 and $400,000 ; that a company with a capital of $GO,000 is being formed for the manufacture of nuts and bolts, and tluat various other interests of that kind liave grown up in that Province within the past six months, the whole requiring altogether a ca].ital of $1,000,000— when I mention all these things, I ask whether, under those circumstance.'^, Ontario or Quebec has exhibited a greater spirit of enterprise than has the Province of New Bruns- wick, bearing in mind, at the same time, tliat in proportion to poi)uIation, our one million of capital is equivalent to six millions in the Province of Ontario, or four and a-half millions in the Province of Quebec. Sir, a ehar- acteristio scene took phvce P,iuco I came into this House this afternoon. 1 heard of a petition being circulated in St. John, asking that pertain amend ■ ^ I- 1> menta bo macle to th» Customs TarifT, and if 1 heard correctly the late Mmister of Cn.tK>m. presented sue!, a petition this afternoon. If fte ob tt u the Tar.U'-eonsuU.r.ng that ,i has been in circlalion for a month among tb.«„ who do not agree vv.tl, u, |>oliticalIy_wI,y was it left until just before I ™e to make the Budget Speeeh i I sa,-, Sir, that this p3titi„n\ras saM i' It has been sa.d that the ,m|,o.siti* of a d„ly on eorn and eornraeal i nnpopular, and I know that dn.y is unpopular in Nova Scotia and New JJrunswick. Mr, MACKENZIE : And in Ontario, too. Sir S. L TILLEY : Andif we were legislating here solelv forthese Pre noes we would not have asked for its imposition, but h was pirt and parcel of our pohc, ; and what is the fact^ It will be seen by a return on L Tab L of the House that the duty collected on corn and cornmeal in the Provinces of ^ova Soot, and New Brunswick has b:.en nearly or quite met by the rl,c' Uon of the duty on molasses eon.sumed during the same period. It will b. ound that though, n Xew Brunswick we consun.ed 65,OoJ gallons more Ian o^W ^!"t''" "' r ""!''' *'^ '"'^ ^°"^^^«^ - -'-*^"-"g like $9,000 01 $ 000 les.s another words, the reduction of duty on tea and mohsses ^yII balance what .s paid by the Provinces of New' Brunswick and n"" SCO ja on corn and cornmeal. Still not a word is said on this point by hon gentlemen opposite, their object being to alarm people as to the effect thi ranff ishaving on particular industries in these Provinces. Then we come to he duty on flom^ and I have heard it .stated that this is a. Ontario Tariff It wxll be found by the returns on the Table that during the last six months New Brunswick and Nova Scotia hicve not paid one dollar more on coal and flour than has Ontario, in proportion to population. We may expect objections to provisions m tins Titriff, but on looking at its operation throughout it is a nnryel to me how wo could have framed a Tariff that bears so eoually on all portions of the Dominion. I am quite prepared in the discussion of L sub- ject to have hon. gentlemen oppo-iie differ with me on this point, but let «s go to the returns and form a judgment fi-ora the facts submitted to the House It IS said the greatest enemy of truth is prejudice, and its greatest friend tune, lime is soKmg this question with reference to the Tariff The main discussion on the Tariff will be this Session. The result of another year'. ' experience will be such that our friends opposite will be then veerin/their course for a moderate protective policy, in order that they may meet the desires of the country. It is said this policy has damaged the country gen- 20 Mr. MACKENZIE : Hear, licar. Sir SAMUEL L. TILLEY : The lion, gentleman jays " Hoar, hear." Well, the lion, gentleman and his organ for live months aftei* the passage of this Act, endeavored to show that the country was jiooror than it ever was before. For the five months subsequently, the Opposition organs endeavored to show, when the pros])eiity of the country M'as so apparent that it could not be gainsaid, that it was not the result of the National Policy. Bun, Wiman and Company published a statement showing that the bankruptcies in Canada had been greater last year than cvci before. Then the cry was again raised that the country was going to riiiii. Here was something to build an argument od. It was amusing to read the varied statements made from time to time with reference to the Tarifi'. T will give you a sample. In one of the leading papers, which hazarded the statement that this policy was enriching the manufacturers at the expense of the masses, appeared a quotation of the price of rubber overshoes, to show how the prices had been increased and the manufacturer eniiched ; and yet the same paper in the same issue called attention to the fact that 2,000 pieces of Cinadian woollens had been bought the day before at 30 per cent, less than any price ever before known in the history of Canaila. Such is the inconsistent line taken by the Opposition. As to bankruptcies, it was stated in the House the other night that these increased bankrujitcies were the result, to a great extent, of the general impression on the part of the people that tlie law would be repealed. The result of that impression was that the man who had been struggling along with his head just above water, took advantage of the law. On soeing the prospect of improved times, they came to the determination to obtain relief from these liabilities and start anew on tlie Hood title of prosperity. In the United States, in 1878, the same fact was notice.!. Just at the com- mencement of prosperous times there were mora binkruptcies than during the previous years. It is to be deplored that our iniignifiu-jufc country, with its grand prospects, sliould be decried, and its credit damaged for party pur- poses. The hon. leader of the Opposition stated that, if it had not been fov the good crop last season, the country would be in a worse position than it ever was before— is it not in a better ])osition than it Avas a year ago 1 Can you look anywh' re throughout the length and breadth of the Dominion and s;iy it is not so I Take the im- porters who, from their positio'i, v/oidd naturally have less sympathy with this policy, and with this Tariff, tiii <• tlicae who are more directly benefitted by it, and you will find, nnivei sally, both in wholesale and retail lines, that in the last six months the general trade of tho country has been largely improved and incrensed. If you go to the farmer, you will find that he y , i > V 21 y • 1 t^ iccoguices the imiivuverncnt iu prices for the articles he hns for export, or for lionio consumption in tlie home market. You may go to our ship[)ing interest, jtnd you will find that during the last live or six months everyone has a moie lio))oful feeling than thoy had befo-e. Take the lumber intei-est of the Ottawa Yalley and other parts of the Df liniun, and mark the change. You will find every man who is engaged in that business in the city of Ottaw.i, in the vest, or down east, doing double work, making sales sihead, and with a different, a more buoyant, spirit than he had twelve months before. I c ire not iu what part of the Dominion you go, you will find a more hopeful fe;!ling and more confidence , and, notwithstanding all these evidences of pros})erity, the hon. gentlemen of the Opposition will blind their eyes to the fixcts and state that the conntry is not prosperous, and are doing everything iu their power to prevent emigrants from coming into the cotnitry to settle and invest their capital, and lielji to promote the prosperity of the country. 1 think it is scarcely necessary for me to oilarge upon this point, but I have no fe.irs for the future of the country. Its prosperit\- 1 feel is assuied. i do not say that it is all the result of the National Pulicy. i agree with my hon. friend (Mr. Mackenzie) that there are other causes a(f(!cting ii , Ijut I assert this — that the day after this policy was adoi)ted in this House, iu leading commercial centres and throughout a large portion of tlie Dominion of Canada, there was an entirely different feeling, a more hopeful feeling than there was the day before the policy was announced. And I believe, from personal observation and indisputable evidence, that 10,000 n^en are now occupied in tiie country who could get no employment before ; and, what is mor.', the returns of the last six months, adding the three million.s and a-half of im])orts of the previous year, which clearly belonged to that, will show that the difference between tlie imports and exports of the Dominion for the last six months are in favor of the exports by SO,50C,000. At the close of the year we will find that by the reduction of imports and the increase of exports, the balance of trade, which some gen- tleme!» tiiiuk is of no importance, though I think it is of vital importance to this country, will for the first time iu the history of the Dominion be in our favour. I am, Sir, hopeful with reference to the future of this Dominion, and I believe that with the i)olicy of developing the Great North-West, with the expenditure that was asked for this year, and is asked for by the Govern- ment for ncrance principles. If my hon. friend (Mr. Mackenzie) ani I were going on together now as we did twenty yeiirs ago, in favor of temperance, iierhaps ho would not have sneered so much at me on this question. .\h to demijohns-, tin >so imported with vinegar, or winr. or acids, were subject to a different (hiiy from demijohns imported empty. They will be charg.d 30 per cent, ad Vflonm instead of 20 per cent. ; asplialtum, used in making varnish, 10 percent, ad valorem instead of 20 per cent. ; bagatelle tables or hoards, with ciies and balls, 35 per cer.t. ad valorem same as furniture ; billiard tables raisrd from 10 to 15 per cent. o7 valorem ; the same will apply to pianos, the spocifie duty lemaining the Siime ; birdcages of all kinds will rome .mder uniform duty, no matter of what material they nr.) composed. Shoemakers' ink is placed at 25 per cent. Books are changr-d from cents per lb. to 15 percent., in consideration of of our hon. friends opiiosite, wdio advocated that course ]mt Session. Account books, 30 per cent, instead of 2) per cent. ; valentines, chromes, atid cards '^enerallVi u dutv of 30 ^)ov eent. H^lsfv w'.Te tijassfid under * I I I 23 percent, list, thej kuviiig previously been charged difterent rates, aocorUiug to the materials of which they were made. Cans containing fish, under the Washington Treaty, will be charged l^e. per quart can, and the same price for each additional quait. This duty was imposed :n order to counteract the effect of the American legislation, by which the trade of the United States had an advantage over our people of eighteen cerits per dozen on all canned fish. China and porcelain is to be increased from 20 to 25 per cent. Combs are placed at 25 per cent., instead of a duty being charged according to the materials of which they are made. Crapes of all kinds are now placed at 20 per cent. Fishing rods at 30 per cent. Fire-proof paint at ^ cent per pound. Flag-stones, dressed, 81.50 i)er ton. Artificial flowers are reduced from 30 to 25 per cent. Grapes are increased from Ic. to 2c. per lb. Hat- trasses of all kinds, 35 per cent. Silvered, ))lated glass, iraitation porcelain, shades, decanters, etc., 25 per cent. Gloves and mitts, of whatever material made, 25 per cent. Wrought iron tubing, plain, not tlireaded, coupled oi otherwise manufactured, 15 por cent.; slabs, blooms, loops or billets, avo reduced from 12^ to 10 per cent. Llquoiice is placed at 20 per oent ; when in extract or confection, Ic. per lb. and 20 i)'n' cent. INEalt, extract of, or for medical pMirjioses, 25 per c?nt. Poultry and game, 20 per cent. Milk food, 30 per cent. I'he ad valorem duty on cabinet organs i:i increased fiom 10 to 15 per cent., specific duty unchanged. Bismuth is placed on the free list. Ruled pa])or is charged 25 percent. Collar,=, if cotton, linen or papv^r, 30 per cent. Quicksilver is jdacd at 10 per cent. .Tn ^gard to the duties on champagne, it is provided that the quarts and pints in each case shall be the ordinary sized quarts and pints. Steel and manufactures thereof are placed on the free list for another year. lu regard to sugars, syrups and molasses, it is provided that the duty is to be charged on the exi>ort duty or other Government tav. Trunks are increased from 25 to 30 per cent. Tlie duty on cigar.s and cigarettes is increased from 50c. to GOc. per Id. Tomatoes in cans are |»laced at 2e. per lb. Watch actions, movements, 20 per cent., casea and watcJies 25 per cent. Hubs and spokes in rough are reduced from 20 to 15 per cent. I now come to a question of some importance, and tiiat is the • luesliou of coal. When this was under the consideration of Parliament be- fore, the Government, after j^iving the matter very careful consideration, came to tlio concdusinn that 50c. a ton on bilumiuous coal would carry it from Nova Scotia to Toronto. A couHidorable quantity of coa! Wiis sent* to Toronto during last year, and it was hoped that arrangements could have been made with the Grand Trunk Railway by which the quantify might Imvo been largely increns«d, Miy^y giving the matter tho n.o^t careful considei-u- lion, and desiring to enable that industry to send its piuduota as far west as riamilton, it is proposed that |^)(v liddlfionnl p.T sliOrt ton be chargM on 21 bituminous coal. That will nuike the duty 60c. per ton. Slates of all kinds Hnd ni.iniifactures of slate not otherwise specified are made 25 per cent wl valorem. Wool, viz., Leicester, Cotswold, Lincolnshire, and combiner wools Buch as are i)roduced in Canadx, are to be placed on the tarifl^ at 3c. per lb. ^ MR.MACKENZIE: Will the hon. gentleman state what the reve.aie IS Jie expects to derive fiom these chang.-s on the Tariff? SiH LEOxNARD TILLEY : I stated that after exa-nining this matter carefully I do not think we will receive mncli ad litional reveiuie from these changes. Mil. MA CKE>rZlE : Nut from coal ] ^m LEONARD TILLEY : No ; because we think this will carry the coal from Toronto to Hamilton, and if it does we will lose revenue, the Nova fecotui coal ts.king the pI.-c of impoited coal. But upon the export duty on Migar and soil :o other articles we will have an ecjuivalen^. However, the Ji^stunates of iiioroased revenue are not based upon these resolutions 'The following are the additions to the free list: sulphate of ammonia; bismuth • cninabar; machinery of worsted and cotton mills, limited to October Lst' 1880; muriate of potash, crude; settlers' elFects, under regulations to bo' mde by the hon. the Minister of Customs ; live stock, when imported into AFanitobaor the North- West Territory by intending settlers, until otherwise ordered by the Governor-in-Council ; steel till 1S82 ; water-colours, by well- known artists ; quarterly, monthly and semi-monthly magazines, unbound Mr. hpeaker, m conclusion, I may .say that these propositions the Govern n.cnt lay with confi.lence on the Table of the House, believing that thev are in accordance with the policy declared last Session, and that thev will be sustiuncd, not only by the House, but by the country. r I i l) r 25 i- APPExNDIX TO BUDGET SPEECH. rcsolLtiona i„ amoncLnent to tl,o tariff. I mav say that Tl f .? "^ contained i„ tl,e.o a.aonclmeat, were omitted^ til! ! """^ .chec,„le.,b„utted o„ a fomer oocasion T e ot.e are Z'tr?, f,"" received the consideration and the attention oi Z Z~tf T former resolutions wore submitted. '-ove.nment sn.ce the 1.7 .1.0 following aJJitions to ,„.., ,,t'c,»lio„. ii ^t'a«l^A tl Ji^^^S'j^T" '=' '■ ^t'.;l';l7;,■!,':;;K;r J--" "-"■'-0.. ..E„,ory W,.co„, .'. In the item coiicerniuii " Mult ' efrii-n r>.'.f '*i ', 25 n. cent B.*i. c„i„,„Sa! «aX"uS';o::t^t ='.L-^.;xT-sri: '• '".i!uhoTv;dr"/';,rr&^^^^^ follows !-*"'■-■'""' " " '•■■""""'-•■'^ f""'« '° amend the Sd.'cdule of Free Goa*i !' Embo.ssed Books for the Blin.l S,a LEONARD Tir.LEY (co„tinuing)_Those are the proposition, «mt when we «o nuo Connnittee, I intend to ask the House 0'^™ ' but bet„™ re.,ue»t,„« ,on to leave the el.air, Sir, I wish to take ad™ 1 of the present .pportunity of answering the strictures of hon ™ tic Z pi,os,te on the financial an.l trad, po.iey of this Government. It' fC„ my custom, as a niomhor „f tljo Ifo-o ' -= • - Leg,»la,m.e, ,n wh.cL I had a .at for man, years, to discuss a-ostio", soLly 2G upon their merits, -As in tlie aiibmussioa of my financial statements in 1873 and 1879, so in submitting my financial statement a few nights since, I avoided miy reference, though my language has been designated as vitu- perative by hon. gentlemen oi)posite, to our predecessors, or the acts of the lato Administration, feeling that it was only right and proper, in making a grave financial statement, to rest my case upon its merits and not fall brclc upon the shortcomings of our predecessors. My hon. predecessor (Sir Richard Cartwright), who, I regret, is not in his seat, thought proj.er, as on former occasions, not to meet fairly and argumentativoly my case, but by sneers and insinuations ; and were he present I would feel constrained to make some remarks upon his course of dealing witli my statements, altliough my hon. friend tho Minister of Railways dealt with him on that occasion in a manner highly approved on both sides of tho House. I will, in his absence, Sir, defer aiiv special reference to him until I come to my closing remarks^ when he may be in hi:, seat ; and I will, therefore, at once proceed to the consideration of the subject on Its merits. In tho discussion that has taken place, it has been stated, vNith reference to tlio financial afiuirs of tho Dominion, tliat tho Estimates of expenditure submitted for tho next financial year are largely in excess of any previous Estimates submitted to this House, and gives evidence of extraordinary extravagance in the present Administra- tion. It han been stated that tho debt of the Dominion of Canada has been increasing to a very remarkable extent since the year 1873 down to tho present time, and it warrants the most careful consideration, not only of the (iovernme.it, but cvory member of tho House, and is alarming in the extreme. It has also been said that the taxation of the country in 18G7-G8, tho first year of Confederation, was much less than at present ; and I desire to show what tliat increased taxation really is, and what has led to tliat increased taxation. I desiro also to state what our prospoctivo expenditure for railway purposes will bo during the next ten years, and tho prospect of being able to meet that expenditure. Having dealt with these, I then propose calling attention to the arguments and statements made with reference to the working of the tariff during tho past twelve months. In the first ))lac:o, I will deal with the Estimates for the next year, which have boon declared excessive. As far a>i the proposed expon.iituro is concerned, I puri.oso proving that, taking into account new expenditure, ad.litional expeiuUturo of ftn entirely now character, tho oxpendituro proposed for next year is les?, as far as controllable expenditure is concorned, than in any year sin.;o 1873. Tho estimated oxpendituro for next year is $25,207,203, which includo.'^ $"200 000 flir> niifai',] . f;^.,..» r,,.. u i ^, r* • • • , ■ ^ ,___, „_...! 1.. ?,^„,„ ^^^ ^j,,j,j,[.^.j„jjj^{^_.j^^, j,^^.ji^j,^_,^ j.^ bo subimlted, including provisions for public buildings in Manitoba. I prooee.l to t ' I *» J 87 I i ' eompare that proposed ex[)enditure with that of 1873-74 : if wo deduct from that expenditure of $;l>5,207,203 the increased interest on the V-U«r. "?"%'""'•""' "'"'^^^^^ ^« P^^---' --"-ting to ^^--,-..♦4,883; if wo deduct $180,000 estimated expenditure on the Prince ^dward Isknd Railway as expenditure that did not exist in 1873-74 • if we deduct $500,000 for the section of the Intercolonial Railway between Moncton and Quebec, which was not operated in 1873-74, because it was not then opened ; if we deduct $200,000 asked for for next year for the man- agement and maintenance of the Pacific Railway, which will then be in opera- ♦ ^^'nri".";^ ^^'''^ '"'" ^"''^' ^ ^""^^^ cbd.ctioa to make of $3,180,K38, leaving ^..,u.b,.ibO against an expenditure of $23,316,310 in 1873-74 If we deduct from the expenditure of 187J-74, $5t0,000 proper! v chargeable to railway construction ; if we deduct drawbacks or ref.mds of duties impro- perly returned during that year; if wo take certain other items, which do not proi)orJy belong to tliat year, the outside bsing $1,000,000, you will find that gmngthe late Government the banefit of that . -illion, it will still reduce' ! i'ff r.'^'^"'" ^"' *'''" ''"''•' y^'' ''^ ^^'' ^toms over which we have control, to $.2,026,000, as against $22,313,310-a sum less, aftar making these deduct,ons._than was expended that year. Then we come (o the expelliture tor ib7 t-i,>, for wlucli the hon. gentlemen opposite certainly wore responsible It roTtV''''; '"'""^ "'' "''^'"^^'^ "^ '^'' '''''' y'-'^'^ '' ^«f<^^'« stated, as at I'-o.-U/, JJJ, and deducting from that the increased interest and sinking Amd and the increased subsidies botweon 1874-75 and 1880-31, bein- $1 418 4'>8 • tVf.nT'^''''"" ""'''-'''^"^ ''' *'"' ^'''''" ^^''''"^ ^'^'^^ 1^'^il^'^v 'being 9lqxmditureof$>:3,7l3,071 for 1874-75, or A710,000 less. Then wo come to 1875-70. Again, if wodeduct from the estimated expenditure for next year the increase in the interest and sinking fund, and the subsidies, which make up $1,401,743^ the estimit.l expen.lituro on the Pacific Railway v200.00!); tlie working expenses on tho Riviere du Lou,, section ,.f the' Intercolonial $200,000, we havo an expanditure of $23,405,401, against an oxpe.ulituro in that year, 18:5-7i'., by our predecessors, of $24,488 37'^ or «U)00,000 loss. If wo take 1878-70, and deduct from the estimated expeu- dituro for next year tho diflerenco in the interest and sinking fund and sub- Bidios, $031,235 ; for the oxr»ens0 of tho nianagemout of the P.-ifij^ Railwn- $200,000; Rivierodu rx)np branoh—formerly Grand Trunk— $200,OOo7we 28 have a total of $1,031,835, leaving an expeudifcure of §2i,175,9G8 to set against the expenditure of $24,451,481 for 1878. We are looking to an increased expenditure from year to year, as we extend the Pacific Railway But if, as m the present case, from this increased expenditure, we obtain a revenue equivalent, in return, . luch we expect, there will be no increase of the burdens of the people. Wlien we make those deductions on account of the sinking fund and other exceptional expenditures, you will find that there bas not been a year, from 1873 to the present, that the ontlay has not been hxvgely in excess of the estimate for 1880-81. I come to another point of some importance, the increased taxation of the people of Canada since Con- federation. Now, in 18G7 and 18G8 the customs and excise Avhich are th. measure of the taxation on the people, yielded $11,700,08 >, c -. in proportion to th. population of that day, there boing but the largest four provinces in the Union, $3.55 per head. In 1878-79, we received from customs and excise $18,4/0,613,01-, in the estimated population of that year, $4.55 per head, which was an increase of $1 per head. Mr. BLAKE— What was tlie increase of the population ? Sir LEONARD TILLEY-I estimate it now, with the new province, added, and the oi-dinary increase, at 4,000,000. Mr. BLAKE— Is tlie ordinary increase estimated at the rate ^hat existed between 1860 and 1870 ? Sir LEONARD TILLEY-Yes. The nunibgr must be about 4,000 000 upon which my calculations are based. It is very important to show what has led to this increased taxation of $1 a head. The first cause was a measure submitted by the Government of which I was a member in 1873, which was carried by an overwhelming majority, and which has since been criticised with great severity by some of the hon. gentlemen opposite-the assump- tion of the whole debts of Ontario and Quebec when we entered Confederation, and the grant of equivalents to the other provinces. The late Financ. Mmister condemned that proposal, declaring it would impose heavy burdens upon the people. But whether it was right or wrong, it was sustained by a large majority, and it did not entail increased taxation on the people as a whole. It involved practically the taking of mone^r out of one pocket and the placing of it in another. It was, it is true, assuming tlie debts of Ontario and Quebec, and giving the other provinces an equivalent for it, but, at th« same time, it was relieving those provinces from additional local taxation It also enabled the local govornmonts to develop the railway systems of th. 29 country, which was a great assistance to those provinces, and in the adjustment of these claims we added $900,000 a year to our expenditure. Then, Sir, there has been added to the annual expenditure of tho Dominion, for which provision had to be made, $1,115,000, the interest and sinking fund for the construction of tho Intercolonial Railway. Is there an hon. gentleman on the floor of this House who will say that the construction of that road was not necessary ? Did it not form a portion of the terms of union upon which we came into this Confeileration 1 Therefore the construction of that work became necessary, and the amount of ),pl,l 15,000 for interest andsinking fund had to be provided for. In addition to that we have had to pay an average of $500,000 a year for the maintenance of that railway over and above the receipts. I hope and believe the day is about past when the Treasury will be called upon to con- tuiue the payment of that sum, but down to the present time that sum has had to be provided for, and in 1878-79 an additional sum of $200,000, although I have only taken the average into consideration. Then there was an increase m the Post Office expenditure, over and above receipts, of $500,000. The expenditure has increased by $1,100,000 and the receipts by $600,000. It may be a question whether it was desirable on the part of either or both Gov- ernments to give the extended facilities which have been given to that service, but still the money has be.)n exjiended, and we have the advantages of that expenditure throughout the length and breadth of Canada. Then there is the interest and sinking fund of expenditure on the Pacific Railway and the Canals, amounting to $1,250,000. Tho whole of this makes a total of $1,265,000, or more than $1 per head of the additional necessary taxation nnposed in 1878-79. I think it is important to bring this out, because we must take into account, in regarding the increase of the public debt, that we have added threo or four new jn-ovinces to the Dominion ; that we have pur- chased a vast territory, and are opening it up ; that we have constructed and are working a railway in>ccordance with the terms of Confederation, and that thenicreaseof$l per head has been caused by expenditures whicli, in the main, could not be avoided, but were absolutely necessary. I now ome, Sir, to another statement. It is a statement of the increased expenditure, and is something of the same character as the one I have just submitted. Woliavo lieard more than once from the other side of tho House this Session, thaVtho expenditure of the Dominion of Canada has increased with rapid strides ; that when wo came into Confederation wo had an expenditure of but $13,486,000, while last year it amounted to $21,455,000. It is importmt, in this connection, to sliow how this exi)onditure has been increased, for what purposes it has been made, and the objects which rendered it neoesiavy. The increase in the payments for interest on debt and sinking fund for 30 subsidies, the readjustment of tlie debts of the j)rovinces, and the increase on the debt incurred for the Canals and Pacific Pvailway, alone, amounted to $3,982,051. The expenditure under the head of Intercolonial Railway, that IS, the increased working exi.enses, (because, as tlie receipts form an item in • our revenue, so the expenditure forms an item in our general expenditure) over and above what was expended in 1867, on the section of Intercolonial Railway then open from St. John to Shediac, and from Halifax to Truro, amounted to $1,873,535. Then we come to the item of Public Works. During the first two years of Confederation, we expended very little on public works. Sir John Rose, then Finance Minister, having laid down the principle that the expenditure should not exceed the income. In the first year of Confederation, the amount expended on public works was only $269,000. Last year, the expenditure reached $1,130,000, being an increase of $740,000. On Lighthouse and Coast Service, the expenditure has increased $270,000. The policy of both Governments, and I think it was a wise policy, has been to expend liberally on the construction and maintenance of lights, which are for the beneiit of our commerce, and especially our importers and exporters. On Fisheries, the expenditure in the first ^ear of Confederation was $30,572 ; last year it amounted to $82,319, and tho average e.xpenditure fur fisheries, since 1871, has been $90,000 a year ; the ]n-opriety of encouraging this industry will always be recognized by the people. Then we come to a large experditure last year in connection witli the Indians in the North-West, and the Dominion Lands. The expenditure under that item has become very large and serious. It is a question whether any other policy could have been adoi)ted, but I think it will be admitted that the money which has been expended under treaty arrangements with the Indians, to secure peace with them, or to relieve them in the hours of their distress, is far better expended than in an increased armed force The expenditure under this head reached $080,000 last year. Then there is an increased expenditure in British Columbifi, Prince Edward Island, Manitoba and the North- West, not included in the items referred to above,' of $700,000. On Ocean and River Service, we expended last vear $130,000 in exce.ss of what was exi)ended in 1867 ; and the increased e.xpenditure on the Post Office was $1,168,000. -On Legislation, a part of the increased expenditure- was caused by the accession of new provinces, the increased nun.ber of members of this House and of the Senate, and a part was the result^of an increase in the indemnity to members. That item was $153,000 more last year than it was in the first year of the Union. An increase of $31,000 was caused by the salaries paid to tho four additional Lieutenant- Governors. On Weights and IMeasures, there has been an increase of V if f 31 684,C00 ; and $100,000 has been added to the cost of management of canals, though they liave brought an additional revenue of $90,000. This makes, altogether, an increase of $10,104,190, leaving about $8G5,000 to be' - accounted for by the increase in the cost of the Civil Service, Immigration, Pensions, Superannuation, Marine Hospitals, Customs and Excise, Insurance, Geological Survey and Observatories, the result of the admission of new l)rovinces, or new items of expenditure. TJiese are the items which compose the increase since Confederation, but, if hon. gentlemen will take them up and examine them carefully, they will find that, although, i)robably, there are Kome expenditures which could have been avoided, there is a satisfactoiy reason, in most cases, for the increased expenditure since 1 867. Mr. MACKENZIE — You have a revenue equal to the expenditure for insurance, or a little more. Sir LEONARD TILLEY— 0, yes ; and in several of these items our revenue has gone on increasing. From 18G7 to 1873 the increase in the r-venue was much larger thon that in the expenditure, which left us a surplus, and since then there has been an increase in many items, but it all goes to swell the general expenditure, and I think hon. gentlemen do not always take that as much into consideration as they should. Some state to the country that there has been an increase in the expenditure from $13,000,000 to #24,000,000, without saying anything about the increased revenue — from public woi-ks — received in return for those increased expenditures. Now I come to what, 1 think, requires to be cleared up a little, and that is the increased debt from 1807-78 to the present tnr.o. Tlie gross debt of tlie Dominion appears from the Public Eeturns to ' — ' in IS07-C3 $93,04 G,v/00, or deducting the assets, namely $17,3 17,000, '. net debt of $75,728,000. The net debt in 1872-3 amounted to as against $75,728,000 in 1867-78, leaving $24,119,820 as the net in .. .,se from 1 867-78 to the close of 1873. I have heard hon. gentlemen opposite say that the increase in the debt during our administration was enormous, and, the other night, one of them said that since 1873-74 the debt liad been increased little or nothing, only, in fact, about $7,000,000. Mr. IMAOKENZIE— No. Sir LEONARD TILLEY— I think the hon. member for South Ilurou (Mr. Cameron) said so. Sib CMAKLES TUPPER— He said there was no increase in the debt. I II 32 ^Jt^^'V "''• "'^■■»— "--» '"the deU except was caused by the obl.gat.ons entered into l,y o.,f in-edeoossoiu Mb. CAMERON (South H,u.™)-Th,.t ia .tated i„ /.„,„„,,, i^JZ'^Tfofu '"^^'=7-T"--»l'«- fc South H,.,.o„said ™„,.. Man tliat. One of the items of increased debts is ■ST.l •ion nnn i i the Intercolonial Uailwav. W-,, not th. *I'*.530,000, expended on- of Union! Tl,™ tl """"'*""'' ™ "ic'ease demanded by the terms union ( J hen there was an amount of "il ■! S^o nnn , i ,- readjastmentof thedebtsof the Provinces ?i,rr; """? ^' *"'' of the whole conntrv „l,- , °™'"''^- ri>»t'lid not increase the taxation Dominion of C ' ' ,1'° '""'"''' "" "^'^' "'"' ""«««- "f «- governme,; "^ al iti's .Zr'T' '" '"^ "^°"'° *™"«" "'^ '<>-' 828,379,000 onthesetwol m :„„ r" "" °" "T""" °' '^''^ "' «u Canals, the purchase of tTe North We7 " , ,7 °'" "" '='''™'"'"'' Railway and other similai matte t'' T ° ™™^' "^ *'" ^'"'"^ S4 200 000 in .v„»= ,T, . , '""" '™ ''«'"" »'°"« "mount to ,4,-00,000 in excess of the total increase of the debt during that period. call !Z2''!'T T'^I'P'^R-" my I.on. friend will allow me, 1 wilt CneioTvhir ,,;'?"'?' "" ''""-"-"^^ 'or South Hu^n (M "Sea c 'ad n","'' °" ''"8° '"' °' "« °^^-'-. - f"""" :- late 0:^:,::!':- "''^'' "'*"^""""° ""^'""""« the existence of the weret^thJ'?^''?,™^''''-''""' '"' "» '°»'^ »' what the ohligations 8 VIS SU Tsit r T'- '^' ""'' *'"' "'= "' ''»•"' "t the close of 167 J, was .?U7,481,0. 0, making an increase in that period of §47,033,007.86. Sir CHAKLES TUPPER._Ti,e hon. member for North Oxford (Mr Olrver said the p„ lie debt of the Dominion was $147,481,557 when my hon. friend from Larabton left newer Wi.er, 1,„ f„„i, n; ! ^ »UO,000,000. ' '" '°°'' "'8'^'' " '■""> may he'rfr''^'"' TILLEY-That is Just . ..actly what I said. Ifansar, may be i.ght or wrong, but, as a rale, I^a„sanl passes throu.-h the hands of niein ers, and, 1 ,„,,„,„ 3„^, ,,,, „^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ har.ds ofn^t fuend opposite. Now, then, there is an increase, in that ,x,riod, of «47,032,00o' to whu-h must be itdded the expenditure that is to L made uZr t 4- t t 33 contracts that were entered into by ouv hoa. fnencis opposite, from the first of July, last their engagements for the Welland Canal, the Lachine Canal, the t^ornwall Canal and for the Canada Central Railway, amounting in <^G,951 000 -abng .n al $54,500,000. If we add to that $4,500,000 of the Fisheiy A^vard, It makes the increase of expenditure over income nearly $G0,000 000 oke IfT ;^-- g-*I--n quote from my speech in 1873 wh;n I o the $10,000 000 to be expended on the Intercolonial Railway, of $20,000 000 as the prospective expenditure for Canals that, under the 'recommendations of a commission was not bound to be made within five or six years, or within any given period at nil. It was a commission appointed for the purpose of mrri^ n?"t'"^""'"°"' '^ '^" ^"^"''^^ ^^^^-^ °f canals, so Ihat no m ney should be thi-own away, but expended with reference to that general CoOOOOo' T r, '^"''^""^''"^'^ ""^^^^' ''''' report would be about fovtZfn \ ^f^^^^'^^f"' *^^^"g=^gen>entthat we were under, of $30,000,000 foi completion of the Pacific Railway, made altogether $00,000,000. So trs^vtW^^ °^^^' '''' ''''' ^-- members opposite S7 000 oof wi ! "" "'' ^''" ''''''''''^' '' ^^^^ -«- tl--^ «°-ething like fife ^^-^----> -hen we came into office, we found not only but .^e found the railway contracts so let that the money expended on the 7^ iTyr ""' f '''''''''''' ^"' '''' °^^-- --^ ^^ l' k« Superior t' aWutely necessaiy for the present Government to provide for the missin. mk In order, therefore, that these expensive sections might be at onco proceeded with ancl that the expenditure on the 400 miles fi^m the heac^of the itmoT-" t-Winiyg should be of value afterwards, it was deemed of ten. ! V"n' '"'' '^'^' ^^^ """^^ ""' ^''''' ^^^°-^ *'-^> "^t« that fertile teiutory, should be constructed in order to secure some benefit out of the enormous expenditure previously made. These expenditures, therefore, were necessarily demanded of us. In accordance also with the conditions that my neltf r Y"'Tr'"''"'^ '"''' "' *°°^^ '''''' '° ^^"'^^ °^^ ^^ g°°d f-th the negotiations they had entered into with reference to the constniction of the Pacific Railway. My hon. friend opposite said, the other night, that when he asked for t<)nders unless I misunderstood him, for the British Columbia Tnln? M f '' ''^' ''-'" '°''"^'^'^" °^ ''^'''^' ^y '^'^ ^^^*« Government was a cepted by he present Government, he did it simply to ascertain what waa vhlf T L 1^ ":\ ' ""'* !''''' ----^erstood my hon. friend, because, when I rrcollect the negotiations that were entered into between hon 34 t'entleinen and British Columbia, >vheu I recollect that Lord Carnarvon and the Imperial Covcniment were taken into their coufidonce, and that they engaged to construct it by 1890 if they conld not do it sooner ; and, in addition, tl.ey engaged to give British Columbia $750,000 in lieu of the portion of the road that was to be built on the island, or in lieu of that section, which proposition was subsequently rejected by the Senate; when I recollect all this, and when I find that there is r, notice given by gentlemen opposite, of a proposition to stay proceedings in that section of the country, I ■oonfess that 1 am amuzxl, cotisidering the position my hon. friends oppo:^ite are m with reference to the obligations they solemnly entered into with British Columbia and with the British Government, through Lord Carnarvon. It IS now a grave and serious (iuestion in dealing with this expenditure ; and, T must say, I was surprised, when the vote was taken a few nights since, to hnd on the other side of the Houso, gentlemen voting for a proposition that would, if It had been adopted, deprive the Dominion of Canada of the means available from tlie sale of land for the construction of that railway, and thus Hubject the oldev proviuc-cs to increased taxation for the whole of that expen- diture ; and thee gentlemen will, no doubt, vote for the proposition of the hon. member who is to move a resolution that these work^' are not to be con- structed, knowing, at the same time, that our treaty engagements must be carried out. When the Right ITcn. Premier referred, yesterday, to a statement that had been put into his hands with reference to the revenue that was likely to be received from the lands of the North-West, there was some little L-ughter on the other side of the House ; and, no doubt, in justification of their vote on the land question this morning, they will say there was no money in it, and, therefore, they did not sacrifice anything in voting against the sale of the lands. But I hold that tliat estimate was not an exaggerated one. But suppose it was Jatge, taking but one-half the i)opulation that is estimated to go into the North-West, mikiug this year 12,000 instead of 2-1,000, and addiog 2,500 a year instead of .-,,000, and then provide for the sale of but one-half of the lands estimato J by the Premier, and what is the result ? It produces in ten years, in money, accoiduig to that statement, $19,500,000 instead of $39,090,000, and It would leave a balance of payments due o;i the lands of S? 10,000,000 tovvards the payment of the debt. The hon. member for Gloucester called attention to the fact that my hon. f,-iend the leader of the Government did not refer to the interest that is to .be paid in that time. Well, our calculation is this : that, in order to co.iq.lete the railway from the head of Lake Superior to Winnipeg and the two hundred miles beyond it, we will have to spend $10,000,000 a year for two years. After tliat, the Government policy 3S not to ex])end on publio works over $5,000,000 a year and i' ' 35 i you will nnd, by making the calculation tliat the e::pen(litiue for the two years, when we have completed it from tho head of Lake 8ui)erior to 200 miles beyond Winnipeg, together* %\ith that in British Columbia, will not exceed $5,000,000 a year. In the ten years, according to Mr. Fleming's eKtiinate under this expenditure it will be completed, involving an outlay of $G0,OOO,00O. Now, then, if we calculate the interest on the J$10,000,000 for this year, .$10,000,000 for next year, ?5,000,000 a year afterwards, it am.ounts to .$13,500,000 in the ten years, a million dollars less than half the estimate of my hon. friend for the payment of the interest, and leaving $10,000,000 as a balance due, besides over 80,000,000 acres of unsold land to complete the road. Is it unreasoi.able to suppose that in ten years 250,000 people will be placed in that country? Mr. Fleming's statement is, that the road from Winnipeg to the Rocky Mountains will cost at the outsido $15,000 a mile. $13,000 is his estimate, making the whole expenditure something like $13,000,000 or $14,000,000 for that section. I have heard the hon. member for Gloucester .say that the experiexice in the other provinces is that railways have not aevcloped the country. Why, suppose we had put a railway through any part of New Brunswick that was difficult of access, and through such lands as we have on the banks of the Iliver Ht. John, and tliis is the kind of soil we have in the North-West. I would like to know if that railway would not be an effectual means of developing and settling the country t Well, Sir, if that be the case, I think there is every reason to hope and be liopeful with reference to the great future of this country. Our financial ditficulties, as I stated in my Budget Speech, will be for the next year or two. i^fter that, our course will be clear, and the Gov- ernment having the control in their hands, it' they find there is a difficulty with reference to the expenditure, they can limit it ; but I believe they will find that $5,000,000 a year on that road, and u])ou tlie 900 miles beyoad Winnipeg, will not be an unreasonable expenditure. This is a grave and serious question, no doubt, but I fee) that the possession of that magnificent territory, affording the facilities it does, and the iuducements to en.igrants from the old world to come and settle it, places us in an entirely difierent position from that we occupied before we came into possession of it. So much with reference to the financial view of the question. I come now to consider the tariff and its effects during the Ifist twelve months. I stated, when I made my first Budget 8j)eech, that the most serious eftect predicted of the policy the Government had inaugurated was that it would operate injuriously to certain provinces. Well, Sir, I undertook to show briefly that the province especially to which that reference was made would not, in mj judgment, suffer very materially under the operation of that tarifi': that wus 30 the Province of New Brunswick, An lion, member of this House marie an effective speech on this subject last year, and he made an effective speech this year ; but as his statements did not happen to be consistent with the facts, the effect of that speech will not be as great as it was at the moment of its delivery, when ho was suuounded by his friends and congratulated upon his speech. ThatMion. member {Mv. Ro.ss), in order especially to show that this tariff operated injuriously to Ontario and New Brunswick, stated that, in consequence of it, the duties collected per head of the population in Ontario had been increased last year $1.16 per head, whereas in Quebec they had only been increased 27c. per head ; in Nova Hcotia they had been diminished 9c. ]>er head, but in New Brunswick they had been increased 81.40 per head. Now, though the returns for last year only embrace some four months* operations of the tariff, if such had been the actual results of that tariff, then the hon. member would have made out a case with Reference to the unequal bearing of this tariff upon tlie Provinces of Ontario and New Brunswick. But when I tell this House that the difference i)er head of the population during last year was 16c., instead of $1.16 for Ontario Mu. ROSS (West Middlesex) -Last yearl My statement was correct. Sir LEONARD TILLEY— Your statement for last year is not corrjct. I have the returns for last yeai- to show that the nicrease in Ontario was but 16c. per head, instead of $1.16. It was 27c. in the Province of Quebec ; and instead of its beingin New Brunswick 81.40 more per head, it is $1.40 less. Mr. MACKENZIE— How does the hon. gentleman count the entries at ]\Iontreal 1 Sir LEONARD TILLEY — I am merely taking his statement, in which ho refers to the increase of duties per head of the population. Mr. MACKENZIE— If the hon. gentleman is giving figures of his own, I want to know how he arrived at it. Sir LEONARD TILLEY— They are from the Trade Returns. If you turn them up, I will show you the figures, they speak for themselves. IMr. ROSS — I referred to percentage. Siu LEONARD TILLEY— If you turn to the Trade Returns of last year, where there is a comparative statement of the per capita rate of customs duties,— it was from that, I suppose, the hon. gentleman obtained his data,— and if iho Lou go .i tie nan expects his statomonts to hav^ any effect upon the I ^ • ■ > 37 country, he must not make statements so inaccurate and so open to contra- diction. I advise him to state things as tliej are instead of reversinc. them and statnig there is an increase of $1.40 instead of a decrease. Tliat decrease took place in this way : In 1877-78, owing to the fire in St. John, there was . a very hirge increase of imports into the Province of New Brunswick That increased the rate per head on its pojnilation, and the result was that last year it was 81.40 less. Tiien the hon. member stated, and the statement was responded to by the members of the Opposition around him, that that was a point It was hard to got over. It only shows what the liou. member will resort to to make a point against the tariff. I desire to enlarge a little upon the effect of this tariff on the Province of New Brunswick. An hon. member for Ontario referred to a petition from St. John complaining of the operations ot the tariff laid on the table of the House, and having about 2,G00 or 2 700 signatures. I find tliat the signatures to that petition numbered just the s^xmc as the votes recorded by the late Minister of Customs at his last election Ihen the petition had tliis advantage : tliat in a population of 40 000 where there would be 10,000 male adults, many of them not electors, many non- electors Signatures could be obtained. Moreover I find that this petition was sent to every section of the country. This petition does not denote any ^reat cliange of opinion. The petition is a verj remarkable one al together. I wonder it was not signed by everyone to whom it was presented. It asks that tlie dutv should be taken off sugar, flour, meal and almost evervtiiing imported. I see on; gentleman a supporter of the gentleu)en opposite, was quite willing that the duty should be taken off everything but one article, in which he was lar^olv interested, as he is a large stockholder in the Spring ITill coal mines, and he marks on the margin, " except coal." It is necessary to look carefully into a petition, in order to discover what value is to be attached to it I notice that there is a marvellous similarity in the handwriting of the signat.ires, and an important feature in connection with the j.etition is that portions of it is much worn, and in a soiled condition, wliich is mi ovidenoe of the amount of labor expended in hawking it about. The parties signing this petition also signed a joint letter to myself and the county members, asking that the petitio.i should be complied with. I did not receive the ktter until several days after I made mv financial speech, wlien it was not possible to take these subjects up and deal with theni. I now come to a matter of somewhat personal character. The hon. member for Queen's, who has taken charge of the citv and county of St John, read an ohiborato paper, allowing the number of mechanics and trades* men in the city of St. John, and he took me to task for having made oalcu- -atiouP. with reference to the oiTect of Confederation, financial or other- i fc 38 ririr .',7™, V;;'"'' "•-'-■ ■ "" ■■-•■ ■■ •>■• - "caW bo S3 78 „,- «;T ., t 7 ° f arrangements .muIc- in Q„.,l„;c, 'J uo 9-/0 01 sa a head. But what was tlio f,icH Tf „„ i • ■ . the arrangements made after the Qnebec me- i'lut „1 ""' '" """'' would b^ r ! r ""' """ " "•" '"■"i"'^^' "- -c'-=.a.y taxation .«3oeptn.l ,; r ';':;:^ '"■■,:"«»-"'• I ^^ ^t he,,itate to say, and it is moment on'olt'o' i t 1° t'^r"' " T'"'^' "'"""" "»^'"="- ""'"» held np hero t ente 2!^ • 't! ''"''°°- ^'"-"'■"-'-'inS tl"«, I am injurious to th p"v f X T'""""""" """ ''"'^ ''»''" ""•■"««"/ aition of t .at era n Hhe D ■ ■"T"'', '^'"' ■■^''■""^ *° «'" "»- -ay, in relation' tThet^ ofT™;! nTper-" ''1^-''' "- »"- industries of that province At L r^ ^^' °" ""^ ™"""f'«l"'ing «faarter had been as ced ^,,'1 „ , , '''" '"''■''°" ' ''*^"«' """ " h»d been dopTll . t r ""'" °''' "'="■ ''''"''■>'■ A» """'i-B Moncton wa, h ^^ I" tj' "'f 'fr'"'" '° "'" l"-°l-ed refinery af Harris in rospec t his r ' ', I """'"'" ' "°"" '"'^'S''"!''' «° "-■. Stating that tl ey had ctl T'/- """ ' ''""™' " '"'''^ "■™> ''- P-'"-. m l.agland for the pnrpose of purchasing machinery. J. S.1UI H _iro>v many men will it eniploy J inflnett'^T,::r.!;';^:;:-/v:rnr'""''^ ::r tfr: -^ "- --- -'rt':,:in::!: w..ich has ,reen' estbRs ,' J^^^^Z:!;''^^!^ "T '"'" '' the buildin" is all , 1 „ ' ""'"'•' '"'l""''. fOO.OOO paul up. IJoiays TI.0 hen. "<;ule, ,, i ..7;''''.''°"''""'" ""■* <»'l« Hrst of May. plated for ! ! ! ,„T \ ' '■' " "" '"""''™° "' " ''^'^ ''"™ -"'™- -00. and patois ^'but hti "lar'','::; t"^ " ,"°""°" ";™"'"" « -.eriean eapirts J^ 7 rtrr.;;:^^::;^'""^^ '."'^ "1 -.1-!-. Hu.i cjjojr iatcna^niHKKig nil I j. 39 kinds of brass and plated wiro Win, ..., i . \, 1^ qf «^ I ,., , ^^'^ ''"''^^'^^ fc'^ fcfi'^ cotton mill at Sfc Stephens, wluoh Jus been referred to hy Mv. WeMon I hi a, a,^ „„,e,- part of the D„„,i„io„. With ,.of,.,.™o„ to the al e ' r >Z y nokon ch,u-acte,. of that c„„„t,y, I have ..t,,,-,,. of the ..vi ^ h Ik ^ P S.t3 ..„„„g J„„„a,.y. February an,l March. The return, of the^i a ,", bank, g,ve some idea of the couclition of the workh,- ol„,e. W , f , act, , The,e return, show that, during the. nu.nttr; a.O .^ , t doo-fT ""' '""'J-™. "-"--' ^lO.""!) withdr,w„, i„ e e'of effoct of tae pohey wth reierenoe to the revenue? The revenue colleee.1 unng the hrst s.x mouth, of thi, year i, .?,00,000 h J t , for he »an,e penod ,n the ,nevi„u, year, and add to that ?IOOW » the sugar duties, eolLeted ,M,, year at Montreal instead „f St ^ „, and you have ^GO 000 ,e.. taxation on the people, in .shape of cL.' th.an the year before. It n,ay be said, on the other ban.I, tha i» u proof of bem„. $13,000 more than the previou., March, and iu exee.,, of anv March col- lee , en, for ten year, previous t„ the fire, i, evidence of re.urniu, pro, . r ty b. u U^t. At the ,a„,„ t,n,e, he admitted that the .vduetiou of the dul v on molas,.. and ea paul the duty on cornmeal. Now, there i, a rather coniUet .ng te,t,n„,ny here, beeau,„ he ,ay, the,v i, no increased luice in regard to " ,.rov,,,on, and pe.-k ; and, if tea and u,ela,„e, are cheaper than the^ w e ow , t tha the lumberers' supplies can Ik, so largely i,;cre..,e,l in ju-ice ' Z ho,,, gen, e,ua„, u,,d also the hon. ,u„,„ber fo,- Ner,hu„,be,.land, .Iccla.e I th " *!«„■ p,.ed,ct,ous that vva.es won! I be inceased had net been „Hi„ed h wages had not increased. Well, J do feel this : that if they „,., g t'ti, « a arger pr.ce for their lumber than they did h„t .vea,-, and tlu. ,u,,,dt tho men mo,o than for,„e, ly, a, thev allege, „„d ,.s th -^ ^.-h--. " »ont,.i tbo labor „,d the p,.ico of labo^ in -their l:::^i;::;::^z 40 coininou fuiriirss, to have ailvancotl the wages of th(!ii' men ; such a couvsa would have been more consistent with their great pi-ofessions of regard for the l)Oor man. With reference to the West India trade, I must say liere tliat that interest has largcl v improved the value and paying capacity of small vessels, and coasters are now receiving IVeiglits such us they ha\e not received for many years. Sia ALBERT J. SMTTH—Where ? Sin LEONAKD TILLEY— Out of the ports of New Brunswick. At yt. John a large number of vessels are, at this moment, being specially built fur this trade with the West Indies, and for trade with the United States. The rates of freight are larger, and I have it from undoubted authoi-ity that, since December last, there have been more vessels in the port of St. John than for ten years, during t!ie same months. I do not say that this is all duo to the Natioiial Policy, but it certainly does show that the National Policy is not ruining St. John or New lirunswick, and that St. John is not in the bankrupt and dilapidated condition that it has been represented to be by hon. ge\itlemen opposite. You may go through that city und province, as I have had the opportunity of doing, and I do not hesitate to say, speaking of that province witli reference to its condition to-day, and the bankrui)tcies which are alleged to be the result of this taritf, that the bankruptcies tliere are less than in any other portion of the Dominion, accord- in*^ to tlio po[>ulation, and T ask lion, gentlemen opposite to name two men, or one man even, who has be^-n forced into insolvency tlirough tlie National Policy. They cannot ilo it. It is when they are called upon for details that thev fail to establish their assertions; when they attacked the industries of St. Catharines they were met with their answer, and so it is whenever we bring them to particulars ; they are met with a distinct and positive answer to the statements they make. And so it is with reference to St. John. The infor- mation on these points can be obtained, if it exists, in twenty-four hours. I ask for the name of one man that was forced into bankruptcy by the National Policy. Sir albert T. SMITH— How can this be shown ? Sir LEONARD TILLEY— How can it be shewn? Why, the opposite Htatement has been made ; but if hon. gentleman who have made that assertioE know nothing about it, if they have no evidence of it, if no evidence can b« given that one man was driven into insolvency by the National Policy, how can it be stated that many had been made bankrupts hy the National Policy ? i 4 I I I t ,1 41 If it c.inaot be sliown, Lliou I ask liow can tlio opposite be assorted, and wliy was it asK'Tted ? The fact ia, that tliere was scarcely a man in St. John, wlio lias since tailed, who was not insolvent the day after the fii-o. I would ask, Sir, what would have been the result through the length and breadth of the Dou)inion, if we had not had the JSTational Policy, and thus given vitality to the various interests of this great Dominion 1 Now, passing from New Erunswick t'ov the [)res?nt, because I have the advantage of rejjlying to any- thing that may be said on tlio opposite side, I come to the question of manu- facturers, I stated in brief, with reference to manufactories throughout tlie country, that, from my observation, after visiting a great many of them, I found that the result of this policy was satisfactory to them. The lion, the leader of the Opposition saiil that one-half of the manufacturers objected to the tariff; reference was made to my visit to London in proof of it. I visited in all nineteen maiuifactui-ing centres, ami some of these are the most impor- tant manufacturing districts ; anaor man's injuries by the change of duty on sugar is abrurd. This trade involves far more than the employment of a large numbtr of men in Montreal, Halifax, Moncton, Hamilton and other cities — more by the direct trade with the St. Lawrence, and New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia, with the West Indies. With this trade, a vessel leaving any of our ports with a cargo of lumber or fish for the West Inlies, can find a return cargo of sugar for Halifax, St. John or Montreal. The party shipping the Canadian cargo can thus obtain a lower rate, giving increased profits to the shipping interest, or reduced freight to the shipper, by which his profits are increased. The member for West Middlesex (Mr. Eo.ss) said the difference between the quantity of sugar imported from England and that brought to Canada from the West Indies, under the new tariff, was but 4,700 tons a year. He will find it amounts to 2G,000 tons. Vessels from Canada can accept lower rates to the West Indies when they have those return freights, and they can get higher rates and more profits when there is competition among merchants. It is true that foreign vessels come to Iklontreal with cargoes from Cuba ; but that has its advantage, as the}' load with our grain, and foster trade between Canada and other countries. Tliese vessels, with sugar and coal required for refining, provide tonnage at Montreal 46 at rates that enable them to compete with vessels offering at New York, and thus secure our exports via the St. Lawrence. It may be said you art interfering with the extent of the outward-bound freights by your National Policy. I answer — does it not take more tonnage to bring here 100 tuns of wool than it does to bring the products of 100 tonst Does it not take more tonnage to bring iron here, in the raw state, than if manuiactured, and the same with other articles of trade? Let the hon. gentleman (Mr. Mackenzie) gainsay this if he can. The National Policy i* encou -aging our shipping, and developing the North-West as well. We ar« spending a large amount to improve our inland navigation and trade by tha St. Lawrence. We find the Americans in sharp competition with r.s, as th« large emigration to that country gives its vessels return business. But w« si .all hereafter have steamships carrying European emigrants to settle in our North- West, and carrying back the px-oducts of that region and of the older provinces, at lower rates, and thus enable us to compete with our neighbors. In that way also, we will see the advantages of the National Policy. Let it be properly worked out, and the country sufficiently developed, and we shall have a larger outlet by the St. Lawrence tb.an ever before, and the benefits of an increased carrying trade. With reg.^rd to tha statement that |c. to 1-^e. l>er pound is the addition to the price of yugar under this tariff, the quotations of November, December and January last will show it has been selling at a little less than under the old tariff. We will do still better if we buy when prices are higlier and there is a hiiger balance in our favor. We shut out the American article, by adding to the value of this sugar the amount of their drawback. Oar American n«^'.glibors can remove this difficulty at any moment by reducing thtir drawbacks But tlmre is no objection to a competition to keep our refined sugar at a i-easonable price. The competition of the mothci country will be strong enough. It has no duties on raw sugars, which her merchants buy on the most favorable terms, with capital at 3 or 4 per cen . Labor is low, and they can get their freights from the West Indies and to Ci^nada at a little more than we pay for freights from the West Indies to t.h« Dominion. With tliis British coinpetit'on, our manufacturers could not, if they desired to do so, take ivom the people - ' this country any undue profit. And, in this connection, let me say that the remark I made on one occasion, when rofei-ence was made to the increase in the price of sugar and tea, that I waa pleased to know that, under our policy, the country was full of sugar, that Montreal and Hilifax warehouses were well stocked, and th:it it wms not only In the hands of Messrs. Bedpath, but of merchants in the leading cities as well, who had this description of sugar brought in under this favoring tarift', which they were soiling to their customers, and that instead of twenty million pounds, I 1 I I 'I 47 they had thi-ee times that amount, and the prolit went into the pockets of Canadians instead of the pockets of the people of the United States I wa« ridiculed, and it was said that it was most extraordinary for the i inane. Minister, or anyone else, to say the people were to be congratulated beoaus. the T,vico had advanced. Mr. Speaker, it would have advanced without reference to the tariff arrangements, but we would not have had the proht. When visiting a warehouse in Han ilton, I said to the proprietor • .o th« price of tea has ^'reatly advanced," and he told me that it had. Under th« system of the last two or three years, a large portion of the stock the* in Canada would have been lying in Boston and New York, and in the hand, of American traders there, while now the profits on the advance were in th* pockets of Canadians. Is there anything wrong in congratulating Canadians on tariff ar'-angements which have given them the profits instead of giving it to the Americans ? With reference to the farmer, if his sugar costs him no more, and the sugar which most of our people consume costs less; if tli. cottons furnished to them cost no more ; if tlie woollen goods cost no more what difference does it make to him 1 With vcference to the cost of flour, I have a statement here as to the flour brought- iato the markets of New Brunswick during the past year. The writer says :— •< The accompanying statement gives the compa.ative cost in St. Jonn, New- Brunswick, ot a biand of American flour and a brand of Canadian flour, the quality being equal ; — Am. Flou". Can. Flour. January, 1879, Kith to 20(h, ?G.OO $5.70 F.bru..vv, . a «^-05 5. 75 March,' " " 6.05 5.75 April, " <' «■!« ^-^^ May, •' " 6.10 5.85 Juno. " " 6-l« •'^•^5 July, " " 6.10 6.10 August, " " 6,10 6.10 September,'- " 6.50 6.30 October, «' " ^-75 7-20 November," « 7. 75 7.20 December," " '^•'^•''' "^-^O The flour imported fiom the United States, and the quantify was limited, was strong bakers' flour, made from Minnesota -svhcat, a quality of wheat not grown im. Canada, except in the North-West, and an inferior flour used for .chips' bread. Th« quotations given are actual transactions, and show that the duty of 50c. per barrel ha« not materially increased the price to consumers. Sir a. J. SMITH— Is this gentleman in favor of the duty 1 48 Siu LEONARD TILLEY— I do not know whether he is in favor of the duty or not, but lie is in favor of the policy, and he is one of the hvrgesfc dealers in New IJrunswickj and gives this as his experience of the result of the iwlicy. It being Six o'clock, the S[)eaker left the cliair. After Recess. Sir LEONARD TILLEY— When addiessing the House, before the separation at Six o'clock, I was anxious to place iny hands upon some papers that I could not find at the time. I now have them before me, and, as the statement I made was without reference to the dccunients, perhaps the House will bear "witli me if I make reference to them now. In reference to the statements made by the hon. member for West Middlesex (Mr. Ross), I have here a table taken from the Trade and Navigation Returns for 1879, No. 8, page XXV., showing the rates of customs duties per head of the population, paid in each province and iu the Dominion, from 18G8 to 1879. I find by this that, in 1878, the amount per head in Ontario was $2.90, while, in 1879, it was $3.06, leaving a diff'erence of 16 cents, instead of $1.16, as stated by the hon. member for West Middlesex. In New Brunswick, the customs, duty, in 1878, was $5.07 per head, and, in 1879, $3.67 per head, making the 2>'r capita for 1879 $1.40 less than in 1878, instead of $1.40 more, as stated bv the member for West Middlesex. Mr. ROSS— The report of that speech, from which the hon. gentleman, has quoted, is not correct. The Hansard report is not correct. I remember^ ])erfectly what I said. It is not so reporbed in the Toronto Glohe, nor in any other report that I have seen. It is a mis-statement as to the diffe:euc& between per head and ])er cent. Sir LEONARD TILLEY— I looked at the Toronto Glohe the next day, supposing that a speech delivered with such force and with such effect as that of the hon. member would have appeared in full ; and I venture to say that no one was more congratulated by his political friends than he was in reference to that speech, and for the reason that he made reckless state- ments, ^f which I have given an example. I took down the remark at the time, and it was a question with me whether I woidd then refer to it, or wait until I had an opjjortunity of replying. When I looked in the Globe the next day, to rny astonishmbnt, I found the hon. gentleman, who was entitled to at least two or three columns, was favored with very little space. I could \ ^ 4 k ' K A 49 not unilorstand it. unless the explanation was that some of his colleagues had given the hint to tlie reporters that it would not do to j»ul»lish the speech in full. I saw the Hansard report, and found that my inijn'cssiou of the speech was correct. The hon. gentleman said (Ilansanf, page G44) : — " Let me give you a fact or two, which will illustrate the working of the tariff. The [percentage which Ontario paid upon dutiahlo goods 8he consumed last year wa» increased by 2j per cent. ; the Province of Quebec, 1} per cent. ; Nova Scotia, 2j per cent,; New Brunswick, 3} per cent.; Britisii Columbia, 2\ per cent.; Princo Edward Island, 2 per cent. So unevenly does this tariff rest upon the various provinces that the customs duties paid by Ontario have increased by $1.10 per head ; those paid by Quebec only 27c. per head ; New Brunswick, $1.40 per head : British Columbia, $1.80 per head ; Prince Edward Island, 2Tc. per head." I noticed the statement at the time, and, if my memory serves me, called attention to it across the floor of the House, and the leader of the Oj)positiou called to the hon. gentleman, as if to say, " tlie Finaiice Minister wishes to speak to you," but I stopped. I thought it would be better to take it up afterwards. An error of that kind is very grave, and it is very important that these comparisons should be accurate and perfectly reliable. I did not find the remarks in the Globe, but I looked in the Hansard, and found that, after it had received the hon. gentleman's revision, it corresponded with my notes takea at the time. Therefore, I read from these returns to show that, instead of the amount being as stated by the hon. gentleman, it was very differoit. As far as New Brunswick was concerned, if there was anything in tlui argument of the hon. gentleman at all, the National Policy affects it beneficially. I do not claim that, but for peculiar circumstances in 1877-7f<, the large impor- tation of goods to replace those destroyed by fire, made the revenue larger than usual, and the population larger, and the difference in the duty Avas $^1.40 between that year and 1878-79, but it was a decrease per head instead of an increase. I have here a telegram which was sent to me from the secretary of the Cotton Manufacturing Company, in St. Stephens, which T will read :— <• St. Stephens, N.B., March 25th. " Sir Leonard Tilley : " Woldon's reference to St. Croix cotton factory excites great indignation her.-. Cotton mill enterprise progressing most favorably. Subscription list upward of $30,000. Capitalists, regardless of politics, promise good additions. Town Council of Milltowii Tot« to issue debentures for $50,000 in aid. James Murchie, Judge Stevens, the Batons, Boardmans, Charles F. Todd Chipman, and other leading men, all taking active part- The Committee wish this to be made as public as Woldon's statement. "David Main, " Secretary to Committee." Then I took the liberty of telegraphing to three gentleman connected with proposed new industiies in New Bi-unswick, as my saitemcnts with refer- 50 to th €nce to tliem were said by lion, gentlemen opposite to be all moonshine. I wrote to Mr. Stephens, of Monoton, Vice-President of the Lock factory ther«, and asked what the condition of that concern was, and here is what he said :— ''Machinery will be in and work commenced by the 20th April. "II. T. Stevens, " Vice-President, Lock Company." I then sent a telegram to Sir. Ifairis, a gentleman who has taken a deep interest in tlie establishment of tlie sugar refinery at Moncton, and a warm political and personal friend of the hou. member for Westmoreland (Sir Albert J. Smith). While I am npon this subject, I am reminded that one of the hon. gentlemen on the other side said it was no wonder a sugar refinery was being established at JMoncton, because it was understood that the Com pany would have the Government at their back. Now, this was an 'mpli- cation, at least, that the Government were, either at the expense of th« public or in sou.e other way, offering help in that undertaking. I may say that the difficulty tlie Company had was with reference to the difference io the freight charged on the Intercolonial for raw and refined sugar. That railway, for the purpose of taking the business as far as possible between Halifax and Montreal, had placed a charge of somcthuig like 17 cents per 100 pounds upon raw sugar, being less than that on refined, and it was for th<» l)urpose of making tlit; rates more equitable a reduction was made on th« rates of refined sugar taken to the different parts of the Dominion from that refinery. Therefore, there was no concession made beyond what was granted to others, and what was reasonable, and -no peculiar advantage was given to that industry. I sent a telegram to this firm, and here is what Mr. Harris Ravs : — " March 29tli. " Put in foitiuhitioii.s for buiUlinj? ; will commonco brickl lyin:^; about t's i IhI of ilay. J. L. HnrriH in EnglanJ piirclmKing plant. Will be in operation Iwt September." Then, with reference to the Nut an 1 Uolt Cnnpauy, hero is Mv, Youag'i answer : "Company have started four weeks since, and is incorporated. Half the stock tjikcn up and directors appointed. Exixxt to comnieiice biiildiag as soon as frost permitR. Six months' orders aliead. •'Levi H. Youno.' These telegrams give some evidence of something tangible and reliable, and i* likely to produce a n^arked effect on the industries of that section of th« Dominion under the operation of the National Policy. I now return to the j>oint I was discus-iing of the cost to the cousutuiM- of the ai-ticles m inuf.ictured .1. > f 1' 51 ,.. i- in the Dominion of Canada. I have spoken of Canadian woollen goods and of flour. An hon. gentleman endeavored to show that the National Policy had really diminished rather than increased the difference of prices of wheat im Toronto and Chicago. It will be quite apparent to evei-y hon. mamber that the imposition of loc. duty per bushel on wheat could not, d«c;reasj the diffe- rence between the prices in Toronto and Chicago; such a result could only bt produced by exceptional causes. What were the facts of the case ? The circumstances were of an exceptional nature, and they arose from two causes. There was for months a corner in the wheat market in Chicago, and jjarties weie keeping the price up higher than it was in Canada, much higher, in f:ict, than they were warranted in holding it at even for the English market. Then there was another difliculfcy, and one that it would be exceedingly difficult for any Government to i-emedy. It is a fact that any tariff enactments we may make here will, to a certain extent, be interfered with bj arrangements made by the railway companies for carrying freiglits between certain points in the Dominion, and from the Western States to points in the Dominion. The low freights that existed for a long time last year between New York and Chicago, had a great deal to do with keeping up the prices in Chicago, as compared with those in Toronto, because there were times when you could carry from Chicago to New York freight as low as you could carry the same quantity of wheat between Toronto and Monti-eal. It i-i und3r thes* circumstanc33 possible that a repetition of suc-h a state of things as existed during the last four months may occur. The whole thing lias, however, entirely changed recently ; this corner has been broken up, and prices hav« gone down, and the difierence now is three or four times as great as it was. Now, I do not hear hon. gentlemen rising on our side of th« House and excl;tiiuing that the imp.)sitiou of this duty h is mub the difference, uor do I hear hon. geutlem 'ii on the other side of the Hou-^e calling attention to t\ni great difference, and giving us crt;,Ut (or that clumgo. Now, lot ua go a little further with respect to pi'ces. I recollect visiting a most interest- ing establishment for the manufacture of leatlier, opposite the city of Fredericton, in New Brunswick. Tliis compmy lias not a large capital, it is true ; they could do more if they liiul niore capital. They manufacture a particular kind of leather, for IIm lining of carriages and railway pas.senger oars. Sini^o the establishment of t]\at factory, that desci'ii)tion of leather has been sold for from 20 to 25 per cent, less than it could bo bought in the city of Boston. Now, we come to another important industry that has been referred to by hon. gentU-inon opposite, that of ftgricultural implementn. That is an imi>orlant imlustry in this country, and gives enqiloyment to iiumen'ie numbers of men. Under tin present tariff, they have; nearly the I 52 whole of the market of the Doiiiiuioii of Cuna.la. Vv'ith reference ta Manitoba, I think tliat during the first six months of this year, only $3,000 duty was collected on mowers and reapers imported from the United States, as against $70,000 in the same period of the year before. That industry has so developed that the manufacturers now control nearly the Avliole of the homo market. They are, however, asking for the frea admission of a description of iron not made in the country. They also ask that the regulations of the Customs Department should be so construed as to put on the free list certain kinds of steel for use in that manufacture. There was a question as to whether that description of steel was subject to duty or not. The Govern- ment felt disposed to make every reasonable concession in that, respect, and gave them the benefit of that. Bui what do they represent to the Govern- ment? One gentleman brought me a memorandum showing that under our tariff, they would have to pay $G,000 a year more of duty on the iron and other materials that they imported than they had paid the year before. The (juestion was asked, can you not increase your prices, and they answered that they could not. I visited one esftablishraent where the proprietor told me that in 1878 they turned out 1,800 mowers and reapers, last year 2,500, and this year thoy are manufacturing -1,000. They pay into the revenue on the material which is used more than they paid under tiie old tariff; the mowers and reapei-s cost no more to the farmers who rcijuire them, and the men who manufacture them make a larger profit on the increased number they are produchig, and an increased number of men receive employment in their manufiicture. Why, some of t):ese gentlemen ask for an increase in the ])resent taritt, in order to exclude from Manitoba American machines, and I, for one, would have no hesitation in recommending to my colleagues an increase in the duty, eo that the tariff might prevent importation from abroad, if the present tariff should not be found to do bo, in order that they should have the entire home mirket, as tlmy are producing articles at[such a moder- ate price. Now, we will come to the nail industry. It was stated in my own Troviiice and in Quebec that an increase of the duty from 5 to 17^ i>er cent, on the iron would comi)el the manufacturers to raise their prices, but I found that in those provinces they were selling nails for less than thoy could be bought in Boston. Mil. ]MACKEXZIE-Wliat has Boston to do with it? Siu LEONARD 'i'lLLEY — That is where the sharpest competition is. They manufacture a larger amount of nails, the consunuu- pays very Httio more for them than formerly, we got a duty on the raw material, and they make profits ou the incru.ised mauufacturj.s. There is an ilhistrution of how f I I! I r 53 our inaustiie3 really are beiiefitteJ and tlie treasury not injured, because we got in return a considerable increase on the raw material and duty on croods consumed by the operatives as an equivalent for wliat we lose on the articles that were previously imported. The hon. member for Westmoreland (Sir Albert J. Smith) asked me in reference to tlie flour duty ; he said : is the gentleman who wrote that letter in favor of the duty ] I answered that he was, and, from his manner of i)utting the question, I inferred the hon. gentleman placed less importance on his testimony on that account. On tliis point I will give tlie testimony of a gentleman who is well known to be a most determined opponent of the National Policy. That gentleman resides in the Province of New Brunswick, and publishes a paper ther?, the k>ading organ of the lion, gentlemen opposite. T will quote from that paper wiih reference to the furniture manufacture, upon which, they say, the duty has been doulded. I will read you a very inconsistent article, afte'r tliis declaration, that the manufacturer can sell cheaper than the same furniture cau bo bought in the United States. Now, when running the late €lecti-a in St. John, a message came to mc from one of the gentlemen referred to in this article. He was a large commission merchant and importer of furniture from the United States. He had been a life-long supporter of mine. The message was to this eiTect : " Mr. So-and-so has supported you ever since you entered public [lifo ; he is anxious to do so stilL but he requires one promise from you. 1 said, what is that promise ? He answered, unless y(m promise not to increase the duty on .Vraerican furniture, iin article in which ho was dealing, ho c.innot support you. I said I would bo sorrv to lose his support, b.'caus'. ho had stood by me through evil and good report, but T could not give that promise. When the hon. member for Lambton (Mr. ^lackenzie) was scolding the House the other night, ho gave me a passing notice, and said that I had made statements in St. John that were not consistent with tlie policy we had introduced to this House. I stated distinctly the policy I advocated was a readjustment of the turiff in such a way as to give protection to just such industries as this, and tliat being part of the National Policy, I declined to give any promise of the kind, because I felt it was one of the industries that re.piivcd and would receive protection from Parliament. IMore than that, if 1 erred at all in my calculations or in my statements, when I stated it was a readjustment i.f the taritfand not an in- crease of taxation we had in view, it was because I believed in the correctness of the Estimates of the late Finance Minister, which turned out to be for customs and E.xcise $2,500,000 over and above wliat would liavo been received if theie had been no change in the tarilT. Therefoic, if the irceipts had been .^13,750,000 f.n- the one, and $5,250,000 for the other, making $19,000,000 54 . ia all, that wo.ild Iiave been sufficient for this Govcn-ument, without necessi- tating a resort to additional taxation. But, when we were face to face with. Ais deficiency, it became necessary not only to readjust the tariff for the pur- poses which we declared and which we advocated, but in order to get an' increased revenue, so that our expenditure might not exceed our revenue. I will read from the a.ticle referred to from the St. Jolin Telegraph. Mr Elder is the editor, a gentleman of groat energv and ability, and a most ^termmed advocate of free tra.lc and an opponent of the National Policy.. He says : — "MES3RS. yTEWAiiT & Wiiite's EsiBMSHMENT-Messrs. Stewart & White, who gained such a roputatioa prior to the National Policy, by their importation of splendid furni- tare from abroad, have now in their fine ware-rooms on Charlotte street, probably the finest display of parlor and bedroom furniture ever seen in St. John. Much of this has been made by their own workmen, and mo .f the remainder has been upholstered here The display comprises magnificent sets of the various celebrated styles, upholstered in gorgeous silks and plush, and handsome sets equally beautiful and highly finished. " The National Policy forced Messrs, Stewart & White to abandon the importation of fHrn.ture, doubling, as it did, the duty. They saw that if they were to remain in the furniture business, they must do so as manufacturers. Their expcnience as such in this Mne has proved that the enormous duty of 35 per cent, was wholly unnecessary, and *at the Canadian manufacturer without it could compete on even terms with the best makers of New York and Boston." How contradictory. They couhl not competo with them before, but, under this tariff, they have abandoned importing, and tuined to manufacturin.' themselves. II(^ summed up as follows : ** " One of their workmen is nc-,, making a bedroom set which will be shown at the •chibition, although it will be completed much earlier, which will challenge comparison with any $1,000 set ma Now, there is a declaration fiom an authority who is an out-and-out. supporter of fr.^o trade. Tliat ought to be considered as valuable testimony by our friends opposite. Mr. GUTIfRTR— Is not that an advertisement? Is it not a paid bu,sir.0HS notice 1 Sir LEONARD TU.LEY-No, it is not an a.lvercisoment. I will tell you what T have observed. You may take up local articles in any of tho Grit papers giring an account of what is taking place in Toronto, Hamilton, ' t ' ■ 55 Montreal, or elsewhere, pointing out the great impetus given to the industries of the country, and you will find editorials contradicting, and making state- ments directly opposite to the local reports. Then my i)on. friend says, in •onnection with the editorial I. have road, that the editor was paid for it. I do not think my hon. friend, the editor of that paper, will thank my hon. friend- opposite for the supposition that he was paid to make this statement. Mb. MACKENZIE— An editor is not bought because he takes pay for advertisements. Sir LEONxVRD TILLEY— Here is a distinct statement, and no doubt true, that furniture can V)e bought in t,he city of St. John to-day of that description as cheap as can be bought in New Yoik or Boston, which is a waving of 35 per cent., or 17^1 on the old tariff. Mr. ANGLIN— That is not true. Sru LEONARD TILLEY— Well, I venture to say that there is a great deal of furniture that can be so bought ; there may be some few special kinds that cannot, but there is no question about a large portion being required for common use. I might occupy the attention of the House for a longer t m& in giving the result of my visits to L9ndon, to Brantford, to Berlin, &c. I was greatly surprised to find in Berlin a very important industry, employing 250 people, making buttons, and tlie gentleman who was in charge of one of the manufactures said the number would be incrensed by fifty or seventy thus year. In that town alone there are three establishments for the manudicture of buttons. An Hoy. Gentleman — How long have they been established 1 Sm LEONAIII) TILLEY— They may have been established for years, bub have been in a declining condition for some time past, but new energy has been given to them by the operation of the tariff. The number of persona employed in them Ims been increasi'd or doubled in many cases. The hon. wf^iitlemau mainlaiued tliat, l)Ocause these manufactures were established in 1«7-! or 1873, no credit is due to the National Policy for an increased prosperity. I will not oecnpy the time of the House by relating my experi- enco in Ifamillon, one of tlie largest and most important manufacturing oontres in the Dominion ; in St. Catharines, where there are two large flour mills, giinding about 400 Ijarrels of flour each, per day. The gentlemen owning these mills are poliiically opposed to us, and one of them said to mo, that times have not been so prosperous with the.n for the pasit four years as they 56 have been lately. I acconii)auiecl tliem to see tlic capacity of tlieu nulls, auJ to ascertain tlie extent of their oi)erationR, and I fonnd that they were in a very ilourjshing and satisfoctoiy condition. Then, in Dimdas, we found cotton milfs in a most flourishing condition ; we found that the tool factory was in a good condition. In the oatmeal mill we found them grinding for the home market, and also doing a largo quantity of work for the export trade. Though I did not visit the ,St. John market, as suggested by the member for Queen's, I n:iut with gentlemen representing the agricultural interest in various parts of the Dominion, and I may say that, notwithstanding all that has been said to dissatisfy the farmers and make them believe that their tea is taxed more than formerly ; that theii- sugar costs more than fot-merly, under the new tariff; that all the articles they purchase, such as cotton and woollen goods, cost niore, and that they themselves get no benefit whatever, let me say this : they appeared satislicd. I met a gentleman in Toronto, engaged in the grain trade. He was on the other side of politics. He admitted that ho had an inci-eased demand for Canadian oats, for a portion of the Dominion, formerly supplied from the United States, and he said, "We ai-e now supplying €anadi;>n oats, and Canadian oats alone." He also said, speaking for*^ the farmer, whatever elw the National Policy may have done, it has benefitted him. I was a little surprised to hear the statement made that, because our Jiarvest had ' ■en a magnificent one during the j)ast year, and because the farmers had been directing their attention to the fattening of cattle for the English juarket, and thus ciusing an increase of exports, it was argued that the home market for tlie farmer had not been increased. We know there is no way in wlilch the farmer would be moi-e directly benefitted than by the increase of the home market, which must necessarily be improved for farm products, by the development of the manufacturing indu^tfies of the country. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Sproule) made a speech in wliich he called attention especially to agricultural products. His ai-guments Lave not been answered. Ho showed, step by step, the increase which had taken place in the price of agricultural produce, and the great benefit the farmers of the Dominion derived from the operation of the tariff, and, with the home market for perishable articles, was lai-gely increased. Tiien, my hon. friend the leadei- of the Opposition, or some other hon. member, read from ray speech, and criticised my reference to the fact that this year our exports are likely to ecpial our imports. Ho also read from my speech in which £ pointed out, in 1873, that our imports were considerably in excess of our exports. Ifo read a statement by which I undertook to show that, from the freightr, we receive from our ships and from various other sources, we would make up, to a considerable extent, the difference between the exports and 67 < ^!> impovts, an.l prevent another financial criKis. I recollect the hon. gentlonian, on Thui-sday, commented on that statement, and said it was absurd to make any reference as between the imports of Canada and those of the United Hla^es. The hon. gentleman said that diminisl-ed imports meant povi riy. Mr. MAUKKNZIE-1 poverty, and thoy often did. (lid not say so. I said thev miudit meiiu Sju LEONARD TILLEY— Well, I am glad llie hon. gentiountu ♦pialified it. Largely diminished consumption would indicate the po\ erty of a country, but not largely diminished imports. Ifow is it with the United States I Tluir imports have diminiiihed year by year, until, for the last three years, the exports exceeded the imports by S-50,000,OUO a year. That country was not impoverished by that. The people consumed as largely a''. ever, but she consumed her own manufactures. If she was not consuming as usual, it would be an indication of the povci'ty of the people. W hen tho hon. gentlemen opposite are speaking about the terribly destructive oharactcv of the National Policy, they point to the haven to whicli all our people aro going, I'lioy point to that country that has, so long since, adoptcrd this policy in the interest of their own country — a policy that is leading our l)eople away— a policy that is making that country, at tli- present moment, more prosperous than it has been for many man\ years, i would ask hon. gentlemen, when they are refei-ring to tliis matter, what would have been our position in tlie Dominion of Canada if we had not adopted a policy tliat has enabled us to give employment to our industrial clas.ses ? They would have l]ad to go abroad for the purpose of seeking employment. It is stated 'that 23,000 persons have passed over to the United States from Sarnia, but we all know that a large portion of them belong to the United Slates. But admitting, for arguments Rake, all that has been said by ray hon. friend opposite, we would have had an emigration much largi^i* tlian wo have had, liad it not boen for the adoption fur tills policy. An Hon. Mkmuki'. — Hear, hear. Sir LEONARD TILLEY— The hon. gentleman says hear, hear. My hon. friend opposite said T had made a vituperative speech. I do not know- that the speech I made on the 9th filarch or the speech I havo made to-night contain any vituperative remarks. Perhaps T would have wounded tho feelings of hon. gentlemen opposite if I had referred to what I consider tho 5 58 Is i vituperative course of certain i)artios in the Dominion in decrying the country, in running it down and injuring its credit, but I do say this 'that, untler existing ciix;u:nstances, without giving the National Policy credit for it, it would have been )nuch more gratifying if the lion, gentlemen had taken the course taken l)y some of their papers three or four months ago and have admitted that the country is more prosperous than it was, but that the National Policy was not the cause of it. Every unprejudiced man must admit that the country is in a more prosperous and hopeful condition, and I think it would have been more patriotic and more in the interest of the country to have admitted that fact. Many hon. gentlemen in this House conmiunicated with me last session before we submitted the resolutions in refei-ence to the tariff, and will probably remember that, in the conversation that I had with tlicm, I saiut the hon. gentleiain in his statement, and it was done intentionally, no doubt to place me, if it was possible to do so, in a false position before the people of this country, said that, when 1 visited England to negotiate a loan, Sir A. T. Gait was there at the same time. I may say that, when I was in England negotiating the last loan, he (Sir A. T. Gait) was on this side of the Atlantic. It was said when I was at Washington negotiating any business Sir Alexander Gait was there also. He was not there with me. But I :c«i it an honor to have it fiup[)osed that any business transacted by me, or any < ^ > ^ > 59 proposition submitted l