CIHM Microfiche Series (IMonographs) ICIMH Collection de microfiches (monographles) Canadian instituta for Hiatoricai Microraproductions / Inttitut Canadian da microraproductiona historiquaa Technical and Bibliographic Notas/Notas tachniquas et bibliographiqua* Tha tnstituta has attamptad to obtain tha bast original copy availabia for filming. Faaturas of this copy which may ba bibliographically uniqua. which may altar any of tha imagas in tha reproduction, or which may significantly change tha usual method of filming, are checked below. L'Institut a microfilma la meilleur aaamplaira qu'il lui a ate possible da sa procurer Las details de cet examplaire qui sont paut-4tre uniques du point de vue bibliographiqua. qui pauvent modifier una image reproduite. ou qui peuvent emger une modification dans la mAthoda normale de filmage sont indiquAs ci-dessous. D Coloured covers/ Couvarture de coulaur □ Coloured pages/ Pages de couleur r~7| Covers damaged/ Couverture endommagia Pages damaged/ Pages endommag^es D Covers restored and/or laminated/ Couverture restaur^ et/ou pelliculAe □ Pages restored and/or laminated/ Pages restaurees et/ou pellicul^es □ Cover title missing/ Le tit itre de couverture manque Pages discoloured, stained or foxed/ Pages d^colorees. tachatAes ou piquees □ Coloured maps/ Cartes gAographiques an couleur D Coloured ink (i.e. other than blue or black)/ Encre de couleur (i.e. autre qua bleue ou noire) I I Pages detached/ Pages detachees Showthrough/ Transparence ["71 Showthrough/ D D D n Coloured plates and/or illustrations/ Planches et/ou illustrations en couleur Bound with other material/ Rali* avac d'autres documents Tight binding may causa shadows or distortion along interior margin/ Lareliure serree peut causer de I'ombre ou de la distorsion le long da la marga int^rieura Blank leaves added during restoration may appeal within the text. Whenever possible, these have been omitted from filming/ II se peut que certainaa pages blanches ajout^es lors dune restauration apparaissent dans le texte. mais, lorsque cela Atait possible, ces pages n'ont pas M filmAas. r~T\ Quality of print varies/ n Qualite inAgale de {'impression Includes supplementary material/ Comprend du material supplementaire Only edition available/ Seule Edition disponible Pages wholly or partially obscured by errata slips, tissues, etc.. have been refilmed to ensure the best possible image/ Les pages totalement ou partiellament obscurcies par un feuillet d'errata. une peture etc . cnt Ate filrrees a nouveau de facon a obtenir la meilleure image possible Additional comments:/ There are some creases in the middle of the pages. Commentaires supplimentaires: II y a des plls dans le milieu des pages. This Item is filmed at the reduction ratio checked below/ Ce document est film* au taux de reduction indiqu* ci-dessous. 10X 14X 1SX 22X 26X 30X V/ 12X 18X 20X 24X 28X 32X The copy filmed here he* been reproduced thanks to the generosity of: Thonwf Fishar Rar« Bode Library, Univariity of Toronto Library L'exemplaire film* fut reprodult grice A la g*n4rosit* de: Thofflai Fithar Rara Book Library, Univariity of Toronto Library The images appearing here are the best quality possible considering the condition and legibility of the original copy and in keeping with the filming contract specifications. Original copies in printed paper covers are filmed beginning with the front cover and ending on the last page with a printed or illustrated impres- sion, or the back cover when appropriate. All other original copies are filmed beginning on the. first page with a printed or illustrated impres- sion, and ending on the las* page with a printed or illustrated impression. The last recorded frame on each microfiche shall contain the symbol ^^- (meaning "CON- TINUED"), or the symbol V (meaning "END"), whichever applies. Maps, plates, charts, etc.. may be filmed at different reduction ratios. Those too large to be entirely included in one exposure are filmed beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, as many frames as required. The following diagrams illustrate the method: Les Images suivantes ont ttt reproduites avec le plus grand soin, compte tenu de la condition at de la nettet* de l'exemplaire film*, et en conformity avec les conditions du contrat de filmage. Les exemplaires originaux dont la couverture en papier est imprim«e sont filmis en commenpant par le premier plat et en terminant soit par la dernlAre page qui comporte une empreinte d'impression ou d'lllustration, soit par le second plat, salon le cas. Tous les autres exemplaires originaux sont filmte en commenpant par la premiere page qui comporte une empreinte d'impression ou d'lllustration et en terminant par la dernidre page qui comporte une telle empreinte. Un des symboles suivants apparattra sur la derniire image de cheque microfiche, selon le cas: le symbols --»> signifie "A SUIVRE", le symbols y signifie "FIN". Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent Atre filmto A des taux de rMuction diffirents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour itre reproduit en un seul clichi, 11 est fiimA A partir de I'fangle supirieur gauche, de gauche A droite. et de haut en bes. en prenant le nombre d'images nicessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mAthode. 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 i mm A3 SPEECH 'I J T^ri'^r.-b MR. R. L BORDEN. M. P. o* THE BUDGET I HOUSE OF COMMONS. APRIL 17. 1903 OTTAWA GOVERNMENT PRINTING BUREAU 1903 . i * i fious^ of Commons S^bates THIRD SESSION-NINTH PARLIAMENT SPEECH OF MR. R. L. BORDEN, M.P. THE ON U D GJ^ ET OTTAWA, FRIDAY, APIIII. 17, 1903 WAYS AND MEAXS-THE I5UDGET. Tlie House resumed adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Hon. Mr. Flelrt- lus: That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair for the House to go into Committee to consider of the Ways and Means for raising the Supply to be granted to His Majesty. Mr. U. U HORDEN (Halifax). Mr. Speaker, I must in the flrst place congratu- late my hon. friend the Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Fieldins) on the very excellent speech from his standpoint which he deli- .•ered yesterday. That the hon. gentleman al- ways makes the best of the situation we will all acknowledge, and while yesterday he had even a larger number than usual of very sharp corners to turn, he on the whole i.vxomplished It as well as could be expected. \ud, whenever he did upset he gathered hi'nself up quickly again and he went on In as smiling a way as ever, /ow, while the speech was received by the House In a very appreciative and attentive manner, I was aatonighed to see what a singularly soporlUe effect so good a speech had on some Of his V 17-lJ colleaaues. I Tiuticed that there was not the attention given to it by some of the memlKTs of the cabinet which we might have reasonably expected. In fact, I do not tliink that I have ever before witnessed In this House a budget speech of Interest de- livered while four of the Finance Stlnis- ter's colleagues were sound asleep; and one of them enjoyed It so much that he woke up at six o'cloek to protest against the de- bate being adjourned. Some hon. MEMREKS. Hear, hear. Mr. RORDEN (Halifax). My lion, fiiend the Finance Minister coiigiMtulatcs tlie eonn- try upon its prosperity. We. on this side of the House, shall not l>e behind hand in congratulating the country upon the pros- perous conditions at present existing, ami ip that respect we oflfer a somewhat diffrr- e..i spectacle to that which was pre.-iented in days past, by the I.ilierals when In oppo- sition, some of whom were good enough to offer not only to this country but to the mother country a style of literature whii'h was found very useful indeed by American immigration agents. fiomc lion. MK.MBKHS. llPiir. liMr. Mr. IlOKKr.N (llnllfiix). TUe Mliilstrr of Flnnncv dIU not ii"'(li •" tluit rejsnid iiie In very utroiii: ooiiliiist to n ri'i'eiit delivenince of tlio Minister of Miirhie (Hon. Mr. rr.'fontnlne) In Montreal in wlilfli he remarked that the prospnrity of Cnnaila vvii- entirely due to the Klel.llii^' tariff, foiniiiir from a gentleman of the position of the Minister of Marine ami Fish- eries, that was hardly a worthy statement —It partakes more of the character of n patent medicine advertisement than of the ntterance which we might hope to hear from a pentleman <" cnpylnK the high posi- tion of head of one of the departments of state In Canada. It Is perfectly evident that in Uie view of the Minister of Marine, the nifht Hon. Mr. Chaml>erhiln has taken an entirely erroneous view of the con- dition of affairs in Canada. At the recent colonial conference Mr. Chamberlain refer- liiif; to the prosperity of Canada and the increase of Canada's trade from 1800 to 190-2 spoke In this way : The total imports of Canada Increased In tliat period 14,500,OC0 pounds sterlinR, or at the rate of 62 per cent. That shows the enormous In- creased prosperity In the Dominion : It shows how the energy of Us Inhabitants is developing Its trade. ] And when yon come to think of it. I sup- 1 pose some credit Is due to the business capacity and energy of the people of this country. For my part I have never been able to find out the exact nature of the changes in the tariff of 18!»" to which the prosperity of Canada during the past few \cars has been due. I have Inquired as to that across the floor of the Hr.use on a great many occasions and I have never got a definite or satisfactory reply. I believe that the people of Canada are entitled to some of the credit for the increased trade and the Increased prosperity of this country during the past six years, although It Is quite true that speakers on the other side of the House, both In this Chamber and throughout the country affect to believe In an entirely different reason for our pros- perity. If the government does not adopt my view on this question; If melr friends do not adopt that view; If they do not ajtree with the bon. memb«'r for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton) who said that the prosperity of Canada was due to causes beyond the control of any government; If they do not believe In that, then Sir, they are altogether too modest, because while Uiey have In- creased the trade of Caiiad^^y $1*4,000,000 since l«Ki, look wha^^e Fielding tariff has done for the wor^^fhe following table shows how the tr.i^Pof other countri"S haa Increased durln-^- the same period : Increase. 1896 to 1902, Oreat Britain JSOO.OOfl.OOO 1896 to 1902, United States 700,000,000 189*; to 1900, New South Wales 60.000,000 1896 to 1900, Victoria 3;i .000.000 1896 to 1900, New Zealand 35,000,000 1896 to 1900, Australian Common- wealth I4.',ooo.ono 1896 to 1900, West Australia 20.000,000 1896 to 1900, Argentine 40,000,Df>0 1896 to 1900, Chill 134.6sO,000 1893 to 1900. France 6S0, 000.000 1896 to 1901, Germany 332,000,000 1896 to 1901, Mexico ,40.000.000 1896 to 1902, Canada 184,885,084 I do not suppose, speaking In sober reality, that any of these genti len across tlie floor claim that the Incre. -s In those different countries are due to the tariff brought down In 18ft7 by the Hon. Mr. Fielding. But may It not bo truly claimed with regard to these different countries, that the advent of the Canadian Liberals to power In 1890 Is as much responsible for the linprove: XlO^na yet. Is there any hon. gentluiuau fn this House who would say that such a statement would lii- dlente n bealtliy condition of nffiiliH In tills country ? .My liou. friend has gone very fully Into what I may cull the business returns of this country, and 1 will endeavour. In my llgures 1 give to the House, not to duplicate those which be has furnished. I have some doc\i- ments to present In a tabulated form, and. with the permission of the House, I will follow the example of ■ ly hon. friend the Minister of Finance, and band them to the reporters without reading them In full. In the good old days, when my hon. friend the .Minister of Trade and Commerce (Hon. Si- Hlchard Carlwrlght) led the attack on the liscal policy of the government of the day, there were great laments over the burden of ta.\ntlon Imimsed upon the people of this country. My hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce was very WHrni indeed on that iwlnt ; he was more than warm, Mr. Speaker, he was nlniust tearful when be sjMjke of the sorrows of the fiirnievs and the burden of taxation laid upon thew l>y an extravagant and corrupt government. I win present to the House a comparison of the tax 'ion during the past six years with that ' t':' previous six years under t.'onservntlve administration ; because I think It is right, when statements of larKc trade and abundant revenues are h.ld lie- fore the House, that we In the opposition ■bould show the reverse side ol the shield. TOTAt. RErEIPTS FROM TAXES, 1891. 1892. 1803. ISW ..r.o.nu.'M .. :s.««,is7 . . :!t,n2i,nfl7 .,:•?. -'.T'.i,;'!!:! E3. \ 1895 23.446.199 189<1 27.759,286 U97.. isif* 2li,67fi,ir.« ISli'i 34,I>5«,(X» I'.'ii^i "N. 242. 223 IMU 38,748.550 V.-b: 43.3>,3,11J tl68.8«6,3«2 t3l3.5a8,0:S(i In 1891 taxntlon iindi r ronscrvallvfl fovfrnracnt was no.^H.tSl In 1896 tax.Ttlon undtr Conservative toveriimfrt wa« 27,75:', 2s5 UriTrase unilir government . . Cons'Tvatlve 2,554,866 In 1902 taxation under Liberal govirn- ment was t< In 1896 taxation under Con "rvuHve fovcrnment was 27,759 S9,112 :8S Increased taxation undi r Lib- eral ■overnment,. . ..115,629,827 Total taxes collerted from 1897 to 1902 Inclusive under Liberal rov- erntnent »2n,55S,0-'.6 Total taxes oollerted from li^Ol to 1896 Inclusive under ron-(Tvat!vn tovernminr 1<;S.S66.363 Inf-eitFed 'axitlnn In six •.irs of Lib' ral govi-.n- . n.,ni $4l,6'l,.iT4 Average nnnunl ta\;;ii(>n iliiring fi.x ye.irs of rrJi'ct of protec-| Hull anil fri'c '■•nilp, In which bo snlil : ] In IS78, tho Bi'Mial laxallon of Canada wai tW.'itl.Ol!*, Ihniigh, an tliera wai a drtlilt to Ihat year, th<> n>'(cs«arjr tatailon mlgbt be placed nt I19.000.000. In 1W9 tho actual tax- iition wai 130.613,522, bclni an Increasa of tll.r,11,S23. I.ot lift piii'siio tlio ciJinparlsoii. In ISIMJ tlip notiiiil tiixiitl-in wn» *2",7.'>».285, In 1002 It wan »4.i.ns't.ll2 ; bclnit an liuri-ndf of »l.".,f tho lion, ceiitle- iirin whon he wr"l<' tliH nrtlole on the melancholy condition of affairs In 1880 : Comment \» hirJIjr necessary, nor. Indeed, docs space permit mn to point out the «no.*- moiis mischters which result In a young and poor country from Absorbing so large a pro- portion of the earninKS of the people, la defray- InR the charges of the federal government, ai U nnw being taken In Canada. Well. If no comment was needed then. Is It nut needed now, upon an Increase In tax- allon of between $ir.,0OO,(X)O and $10,000,000 In Klx years ? I tfus;. that when the hon. Keiitleiiian eonies to address the House on tills oci-asion he will give his views on the question of taxation, nnd explain wherein they differ from the views he held nt the time he wrote this article. I referred to this same nrtlole last year or the year l>efore, but my rlKht hon. friend was not good onouRli to make any allusion to It. In the S|;c>ecli he then addressed to the House. I thouRlit I luicht possibly hove been mis- taken In the identity of the gentleman who wrote the nrtiele. Althongh It purported to have been written by one Sir RicUard John CartwrlRht, It mlglit possibly have been some other gentleman than my right hon. friend who oceuples the position of Minister of Trade nnd Commerce. There Is another consideration which 1 would like to present to the House. If, as members of the government claim, the pre- sent tariff is a revenue tariff, why is the taxa- tion coutliuicd nt so abnormal a figure ? Why does the government take from the people, for example, $1,000,000 more In ex- cise duties on tobacco and $500,000 more In customs duties on sugar than would have been taken under the tariff tiefor* t80U ? And why does the Minister of Kln- nDcc retain the duty on breadstuffs which he regarded us so unjust and oppressive that while premier of Nova Hcotia he moved the following roMulutlon with regard to it : That while It Is aa a rule Inexpedient to doal with Dominion questions In this House, la view of the obnoxious character of the duty oa broadstufts, the House must (Ir-nly protest against the Imposition of such duties. And the same view was entertnlned by the Minister of Trade nnd Commerce who, referring to Sir Leonard Tllley's surplus in 1882, said : I asked how It was got. tMOO.OOO was derived from two of the most odious and oppressl'/e taxes which w?re ever Imposed In any civilised country before, under similar circumstances at least, the taxes on breadstuffs and fuel. If he really wants to relieve the people, let him re- move the taxes on breadstiilfs and coal. My hon. friend the Minister of Trade nnd Commer..- sits unmoved In his ehalr while a surplus of $^^,000,000 Is announced In this House, and forgets the commiseration he expressed some years ago for tlic ■ o.iditlon of the people of this (■oun..i'y labouring un- der two of the most odious and oppressive taxes which were ever imposed In any civilized country. Ngi<, Mr. Speaker, the revenues have In- deed been abundant during the past six years. There has l>een an Increase of more than $(50,000,000 over those of the previous six years, but let my hon. friend the Minister of Finance bear In mind that if the duties on tobacco, sugar, coal and breadstuffs had been removed, the condition of affairs would be very different If my hon. friend had the courage to carry out his flnanoial conv tions, his boasted surplus would not exist by a good many millions. In making this point I do not wish to be understood as ad- vocating the removal of the duties on these articles, but as merely contrasting the pre- sent position taken by the Minister of Fin- ance with the former professions of himself and colleagues op'' asking them at present what they havr ly alMUt those promises nnd professions luade In days (tone by. I think I am warranted In putting that ques- tion by the language used by my hon. friend the Minister of Finance. I hoTe here a state- in d / lie- 1 / moiit of litR vIpwii wUh rpunril to the plodfcn niid proiiilMii of public men, which I think will comnieiid Itself to the JiidKiupnt >f lli<> ItiiUKe : If ■ public man can hold one let n( principle* out of olBr<» an>l mother »»t In oince, rfspon- •Ible Kovernment li a fare*. Vou have the rlitbt to bold the politician to bl> pledge, Juat a* much as you would the man of bualneaa. The roan who obtains Rooda from you uml'T false prt'li-ant's la a cheat and awlnd- ler. What should you call the men who obtain voles by means of pledR. s which they never Intended to keep ? I say again. If you are pre- pared to overlook these thinRS then you have no right to ask for fidelity from any man who heroafler represents you. I credit these words to my hon. friend the MlulHter of Kinntice. I nm told that he uttered them In dnjrg cone by. But whether he uttered them or not, I do not think be will chnllenRo their souiuIiiokk, ami I OHk bim to npply those words to the record of himself nnd his political friends during the past six years cs contrastod with the promises and professions which they held out to the peo- ple during the eighteen ye.trs they were in opposition. 'i'he totnl expenditure of the country Is a matter nbout wblch, standing on this side of the House, I think I should hove a word to say. The total expenditure during the six years, beginning with 1801 and ending with 1890. reached the sum of |2.'51,C82.027. During the six years l)eglnnlng with 1807 and ending with 190?, it amounted to $.114, nao.'S.'i, or an Incri ise during that period of no less than $C2.S38,7ri8 o^ or the previous six years. The figures arc as follows : TOTAL EXPE>JDITl'RK. 1891.. . . ..$ 40.973.208 1892.. . . .. 42,272.136 1893.. . . .. 40,S53,728 1894.. . . .. 4:!,009,234 1895.. . . .. 42,872,338 1896.. . . .. 41.702,383 $251,682,027 1897 1 42,972,756 1893 45,3.'!4,281 1899 51.542.635 1900 62,717,467 1901 57,982.866 1902 63.970,780 »314,520.785 The expenditure during the past year amounted to $0,3.970.780. During the last year of the late administration, 1896. it was $41,702,383, showing an increase In 1902 over 1806— the last year of the present nd- nilnlstrallon over the lii«t year of Conser- vntlve adminlstnitlon- 'f $-'2,2<1H,:h>7. The average • iiual e (.oiwllture of the pr««. sent I-lbernl t- ' ninr i during the punt six years, amounted • *.'.2,42i»,I31. f.nnparo tills with the Hvonige iiniiual e»|MMidlliir« of the previotm ('oii-'orvallve government, whioli amounted to JJl,»»7.i»o.->, nu-l yon have an nvenige annu:i Increase under I.lt)e- ral administration of no less than $li»,4!W,- 1211. When I presented sli'il'ar figures to this House last year the right low. Minister of Trade and (""ommorce was shocked and as- tonished that any one should so endeavour to mislead the House as to contrnst the totnl expenditures during these two |.. 'ods. I,et me give my right hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce an authority w! ^'h I am sure he will not call In queptlon. nii authority which I am sure he respects ■. re highly than any I could <•!'-•. I,lPAItATIVE StATI'.MKNT OF ExPKNniTUliK ON ACrolNT OF CltNS. iIlHATKl) FlM> 1^90 AND 1902 KEsPKi rivKLV, wnii 1n( iii;Asi>. ■\ 1««. ]'.»'-.'. III. r.;.- Iiit<-ii-«t 111! .l.bt Ailiiiini^'tratiiin )(i^'lral Survey . liiiiiiiKi'iitidti l^uaraiitine. . . . . Iniliii Insurance suisTint'ii'ltn'*. . . LiKlithoiiKe and eoast ?(tTvi"e Mall KubsidieH and stcainsliip Militia anefence MiBcellaniKnis Mounted Polii-'e N. W.T. (fovernnient Ocean and river aerviee I'enitentiarles l'(.Ii. iulivention-' 1'ul.lic Works liailvvayH and Canals Superannuation .... r)n2 41*1 r.W.L'TO ,aw>.(iiv 4lT.-'M l-.ii.l'.ni ;i.\-.'i7 KK().4(i« 4li(l.ll.'iM .'..'" 017 ,1.. /H 17-J,»il .W3.,7ii;i 1S1.4.-.2 .■W.'),228 22,7(1.'* ,2il1t.7!Hi 126,444 311,232 Sin.i'7",0^"i !t4:!,2;«i i,4',i7,;f«ii> ,"i|.''.W»."i 2-'4.01.^ 4'.tl.h42 :.'i.4.7;;s i.(i.-.7.i:ii i:f„">*,(i73 ti(),241 4,2'J1,2'.)4 272, 2; k; 3;«,7frl 47n.r.i'r> 1M.1»« io H7:i.7.''7 41. "1.21 '2 1111.221 314.7;«t .'•2,^45 ;<7..WH 2,!'21.4W 14.'.,KVJ 27 •'jSS CHARCEABLE TO COLLECTION. CuHtoms Dominion lands Insiiection of staples P<»t Office I'ublic Works RaUways and Canals Weifflits and measures, Ris, &c «n6,3;<2 119.WK* 2,.->77 3,f«i:"i,tll 1 l,">y,4liO 3,S2f.,226 97,295 1,1 76,02 1 27!'(;!Pj ! •*,M4 ;«>.'.i:iti i;i,5io i(t,!i:« 4,02;t,lfcl7 1.W.6LT. 4!IK,513 3;fit.(i."i;t 6,N#.)77 2,682 2.M 109,672 I2,:t77 CHARGEABLE TO CAPITAL. l>oniinion lands Interojlonial railway Public Works I'liblie buildinKS, Ottawa I'lince Edward Island railway. .S70,83S 4,626,K41 2,(»y6,;«4 93.7!Hi 47.'>,!KIS 2S)<,6.i4 4,»'.r..44.". i,9>. and from 1897 to 1902 It was $286,719,524, an Increase of more than .K>0,000,000. The details for the several years are as follows : TOTAL REVENUE. 189, $38,579,311 1897 $37,829,778 1892 36,921,872 1898 40,556,510 1893. i ■■ ■■ 38,208,609 1899 46,743.103 1894 36,374.883 1900 51,031,167 1893 33,978.129 1901 52.516.333 1896 36.618,591 1902 58,042.333 $220,681,395 $286,719,524 Avcragi^ tevenue for 6 years, 1897-02.. $47,786, 537 1891-96.. 36.780.233 AveraRe annual Increase during last 6 y.-ars $11,006,354 nevcnup last year Liberal govern- ment (1902) $5S,052,33a nevenue last year Conservative gov- ernment (1896) S6,618,591 $21,433,742 It Win thus be seen, Mr. Speaker, that during all these years of the present admin- istration there ha» been an enormous In- crease In revenue. My hon. friend the Min- ister of Finance, In making his comparison In this regard, will bear In mind that if the Conservative government from 1891 to 1800 bad had the same revenue which the hon. gentleman has enjoyed from 1897 to 1902, the public debt of this country could have been decreased by no less an amount than $45,000,000. My hon. friend thinks he Is able to congratulate himself because, up to the end of last year. It was Increased $13,- 000,000, and by means of the so-called sur- plus of the present year he will decrease It, I beliovp, by about $.">.000,000, leaving, a net Increase of some $8,000,000. Now, my hon. friend the Minister of Fi- nance was. as I said, particularly jubilant over the fact that he had a surplus, and I have no doubt that my rlirht hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce shares that Jubilation to the greatest possible ex- tent. Would it be out of place, Mr. Speaker, for me to call to the attention of this hon. Kpntleman some utterances of by-gone days tliat soem to have in thorn possibly a spark of sood sense, and to Invite the Minister of Trade and Commerce, when he conies to ad- dress the House, to tell us what he thinks of these utterances of the old dnys, and whether he Is prepared to take the same view wliich ho held from 1870 to ISltC. I am afraid that my right hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce. In the touching words of the old ballad, will have to say : I cannot sing the old songs I sang long years ago. Now, the editorial utterances of my hon. frioiKl tlip Minister of I'iuiinop. wlio was al- most as good an editor as he is a Jlinlster of Finance, are also worthy of attention. In tlie coinnuis of the Morning ' Chronirle ' soni(> ye.TTs ago he made this criticism of a Consprvative administration : If these surpluses were created by the gov- ernincnt in some magic way there may be In them a cause for thaniifulnesa to Sir John Manlonald and his followers, but when it is ton-l.lered that every dollar of the surplus Is monoy (akin out of (he pockets of the people without a shnlow of .".n exruse, money not re- quired even by the reckless expenditure of the governnieat. there ii not much cause for re- joicing. 11 Now, would my rlgUt hon. friend the Min- ister of Trade and Commerce do his best to digest the utternnces of his colleague, and let ns know, when he comes to address the House, what he really thinks of the views which were then entertained. But that Is not all. My hon. friend the Minister of Finance broke out In the following year, wlien there hiippened to be anotlier surplus, and this Is the way in which lie bewailed the unhappy lot of a country that was aulictcd with a surplus : That millions of dollars should bo unneces- Barlly takrn yearly from tbe consuming classes of the country, and this without being absolu- tely ncc?fsary, is a cardinal principle of the Finance Minister, to which even his best friends do not unroservpdly assent. They see that a surplus of millions at the capital is Just so much money withdrawn from the trade of the country. How long can the Dominion stand the drain ? Certainly not many years longer. There were no cheers, of course, because it was a newspaper article, but we can well understand how the cheers resounded, we can even remember how the cheers re- sounded, when sentiments of this kind were hoard on every public platform of the coun- try. But, Mr. Speaker, let me not neglect my risht hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce, because I am always pleased when I quote any utterance of his; he has so terse ami visorous a way of express- ing himself that It Is really dpllghtful to bciir him. bcrausp he puts in half a dozen words these matters more forcibly and more eloquently than most of us could do by speaking fifteen minutes. This is the way the right hon. gontloman expressed himself in the old days : Taxation Is an evil that nothing but the re- quirements of government can Justify. And the requirements of government this year do not justify tiic present taxation !)y some ?I2,0(X),0()0 or $l."i,0t»,f»OO. Yet my rigiit hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Com- merce seems to be pleiisod with the announce- ment of his colleague. 1 do not know how he will look upon it when he comes to address the House on the subject But it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that there Is considerable force In the views of the Minister of Finance, which I have read to the House, as well as In the very terse statement which the V n-ii right hon. gentleman the Minister of Trade and Commerce gave to the House and to the country years ago, In the single sentence 1 have read from his utterances. Is there not some attraction to a certain class of people In this country when a 8uri)Ins of $12,000,000 or $13,000,000 Is announced 7 There are people In this country as well as in every other, whese chief concern about the public revenue Is to appropriate some of it to their own use under the ;:\iise of a par- liamentary vote. We had an instan. e of that not many years ago. The acting Minister of rublic Works, in the absence <>f my hon. friend the member for St. Mary's (Hon. Mr. Tarte) In Paris. siMit a circular around tbe country to his political supporters urging them to put In their demands for public works In ilielr various loealilies. bec;iuse It was apprehended that a general election might at no distant date be ni»on tlie country. I believe It had wonderful result.-*. The an- nouncement of this surplus by my hon. friend the Minister of Finance partakes of somewhat of the same character. Is It not good sense after all to look at the situation somewhat In the Il!;ht In which it was pre- j sented to the country so forcibly by my hon. friend the Minister of Finance and my right I hon friend the Minister of Trade and Com- ! merce, and to ask ourselves whether It Is i wise, to 80 arrange our liscal system that I we shall come down to the House of Com- ! mons and say to the people of the conn- 1 try : I-ook. here are $12,000,000 or $13,000,000 I that the government do not really re.iuire. i and all vou who have any demands upon tbe i .government, all yon who have been talk- ing about public works which are not In I the public interest but are In some private 'interest, come forward now, because the 1 government has this money on hand, and i It is a pood time to put in your applieat.o.i.s. ' .,nd thev will reeelve all possible attention. '' Now Mr. Speaker. I wish to turn to the trade returns which have been adve.ted to by the Minister of Finance, and to say that there Is one matt.T which 1 think he might very well have rof.-rred to in his speec'i. which perhaps by accident he omitted, and that is the fact that our Imports from the United Kingdom make a considerably better sbowiuK' this year than tlioy ilid l-ist yi-ar. My hon. friend did not refer to that. I call attention to it, because I think that last 12 yerr I called the attention of the House niul the country to an opposite condition of alTalrs. Trade with the mother country does locli iK'ttiT this y.'iir. I fhink It hiis lii.ioasfd nliout $0,000,000. But I wish to draw atten- tion at the same time to the condition, ns far as trade relations are concerned, which pre- vails between this country and the United Kingdom as compared with that wiiieh prevails between this country and the United States. Taking the imports for home consumption, and omitting coin and bullion, you find the position of affairs in 1!K)2 to lie as follows : Our imports from tiie United States were $114,74-},0!M1. onr exports to the United States were .$47,829,730, leaving a balance in favour of the United States as against Canada of $C(},914,900. Taking the United Kingdom we timi precisely the op- posite condition of affair.'^^. The Imports from Great Britain in 1002 were $40,022,720, exports to Great Britain |117,381,22t, leav- ing a balance In favour of Canada as against the United Kingdom of no less than $08,285,- 405. IMPORTS-HOME CONSUMPTION. (Less Coin and Bullion), 1D02. Imports froiii United States $114 Exports to United States*.. Imports from Great Britain. Exports to Great Britain*.. 44,696 47,829,730 $66,914,966 .$ 49,022.726 . 117,381,221 $68,285,495 silver concen- • LesB firold-bearlng quartz, trates, coin and bullion. Now, this Is not perhaps a very happy con- dition of affairs. I do not say that It is a condition of affairs which can be remedied altogether by the efforts of any government, but I do say that, adopting the argument of the right hon. Minister of Trade and Com- merce (Sir Richard Cartwrlght) it Is a ' genuine prai-tii-al discrimination ' against (Sreat Britain. Thus, to show the terse way he has of putting things, I will read what that hon. gentleman said in 1897. Those returns show that. In tli» very last year of their term of office, we exported to England, apparently, $66,000,000 worth of our products, we exported to the United States, $44,000,000, we bousht from England $32,000,000 and from the United States $58,000,000 worth. There, If you will, is a genuine practical dli- crlmination to an enormous extent, agalts.'t England and In favour of the United States, undrr th(! policy of hon. gentlemen opposite. Does not the right hon. gentleman see that the discrimination is increased one hundred per cent to-day ? What has he to say about It ? Why does he not remedy It ? If this was a ground of criticlf.ir upon the policy of tbe late government what is he doing as Min- ister of Trade and Commerce that be does not endeavour to alleviate this condition ? Let us read bis story of ISO" as applied to the conditions of to-day : Thise returns show that In the year 1902, we exported to England, apparently $100,347,345 worth of our products, we exported to the I'nlted States $66,667,784. we bought from Eng- land $49,022,726, and from the United States, $114,744,696 worth. There, If you will, Is a genuine practical discrimination to an enor- mous extent, against England and In favour of the United States, under the policy of hon. gentlemen opposite. Compare our imports from Great Britain and the United States and other countries from 1890 to the present time and observe and consider the result. In view of the fact that when they came into office they apparently wished tbe country to un- derstand that they had given up their old theory of preferring the American dollar to the British shilling. Tbcy became very much attached to the Interests of the mother country, they became very desirous of pro- moting our trade with the mother country and yet the condition of affairs prevails In the present year of which I have spoken. I will point out to the House by means of a table bow It has continually progressed In that direction from 1890 up to the present time. Now, the table which I propose to give to tbe House shows tbe Imports, In- cluding coin and bullion, for home consuinp- tiou from the United States and Great Brit- ain and from other countries from 1890 to the present time, and I distlnguisb therein between free and dutiable gooils. I shall not read all the details, but I will avoll my- self of the same privilege that I requested before and ask to have this statement placed on record In * Hansard.' 13 iviPOKTs Home Consimption, Inci.i'dim; Coin and liii.i.ios. IKoM THK IMTKK STATKS. IS'.tfi. m>7. 1818. ISll't. liMSI. IIXH. VM2. I of I'UlraM' ir.lO-J(.\rr IKlHi. Frtt 8 I $ I $ ] » I S I ■"nni cir.' :<,"•'■;■•.!'«■>" 44.4:i,8l'4 :vt,Ni:.."*ii .■ac.(k»,-j:.h iiii.isi.siw IiUT'.VtTx ni.H!(i,r).ii 4|^:,74,024 7l,Ot'.>,041 78,:ii">,f)'.KI !W,0,(K!8 lL'i,tiil.V -MlStU; 17!l 20.217.422 22..V.<1.47(l 2:..^21..■|0S ai.r^ll.T-iti ;il.701.iM4',f.-.,Of,2..-i*;4 rmV... '..."!! Kill:',;;.!!.! !',1!I4,76»; •.•,:t44,4J.s; !i..-i;t,S,(115 i;t.2;Cl'74 ll,:i1f.,.M0"i,yi7 37,(HiO,123i 41,78U,T3ii 4:!,018,1(;4 4'.i,2l:t,7iti 4!f22 p. OTHKK COrXTRIES. iMltialili'. Kre«' 13 771 03)' 1.">.520,8.S4 14,004,r.4'.l 17.i;!0,S40 18.887,478 2(),tUi7,824! 23,413.124 ! ! ' ! 15',2til',T80J 4.711,!t:>8 .->,48(!,,8.M tl,.')l4,4lM^ 7,2.82,7;«l 7,(HU;.'.l'.t2l !l,:i.-.7,ti.V.' lUaa 714 20,232,7'.l2 l!l,4m,4!»l», 2;J,K'.ll,3;i4 2(i,17tl,2,473,510 over liie average. During the same period our | average importation from the Vnited States was $,-.1,008,802, and in 1902 it was $114,744,- cmi. or nn increase of $(a.l3,'.S,'54 over the average. What is the cause of tlie enormous Increase In our trade with the United States and the comparatively small Increase in -ur trade with tlie mother country ? It may be Piid very liliely is due to some causes over which the goverument cannot possibly ex- ercise any control. We Know that we are in close proximity to tlie I'nited States and merchants can get goods more iiuiclvly from the United States than they cin from tlie niother country. Then again, the American manufacturer perhaps caters a little more to the requirements of the Canadian market than the British manufacturer, but .ifter all, you will observe that comparlu!; the rates of duties, even taking into consideration the preference which prevails, as between our- selves and the mother country, ond as be- tween ourselves and the United States, the United States have practically the same rates as Great Britain, if you only take Into eonslileratioii (iutiiilile goods, and taking into consideration all classes of goods they lia\c very much the advantage liuh^-d. The rates on goods imported from Great Hritaln are: dutialiie 240.'i per cent, dutiable and free 171S per leiit; from the Unite18, dutiable and free 1320 per r t or 4 per cent less than the average r»ite dut.able and free as applied to goods from the mother countrj ; from all other countries, dutiable 27-20, dutioble and free 10-46 per cent. u Great United All Britain. Statea. Countrlea. Dutiable.. .. MOJ M18 JTM Dutiabl* and free .. .. ITIS 13 20 16 48 Thus, taking the average rato on du- tiable and free goods, we see that Great Britain, even taking Into consideration the preferenpe, pays a higher rate than any other country and a very considerably higher rate than the United States. The hon. member for North Norfolk (Sir. Charl- ton) was Interrogated about t'.Us condition of affairs In a reciprocity convention In the United States, I think, two years ago and he made the following very straightforward answer : The Canadian tariff against Sngland has a rebate of 33} per cent, but the goods Imported trom '*••) two countries are dissimilar and the rates ot duty on tbe goods from England hap- pen to be higher than tbe rates of duty on the class ot goods coming from tbe United States, and tbe net result, tbe total duty, is almost tlie same. I was sunicwiiat amused at my hon. friend's use of the word ' uappen * In that regard. I think we all pretty well know what was done ; goods coming to us from the mother country had the duty increased upon them in 1897, and then the merchants of the mother country were presented with n preference which left the rate of duty practically the same as that which is paid on the imports from the United States, even if you take into cousiUonitiou dutiable goods alone. Mr. Chamberlain brought this matter to the attentio ' the Canadian ministers at the colonial • -ncc, and ns tlie Min- ister of Finance .s read a portion of the answer to Mr. Chamborlaiu's romarks it is pcrlinps only right that I should place be- fore the House what Mr. Chamberlain said on that occasion. At pages 7 and 8 of the report, speaking on the British preforoncc, Mr. Chamberlain said : But in Canada, before the conference of 1897, tbe Canadian government bad decided to give us a preference which then amounted to 23 per cent, and this subsequently was increased tc 331 per C80'- 1^'* ""' "■ preference voluntarily aceorflpd hy r.inad.1 c.n British taTahl!* snn^R imported into tbe Dominion. Canada has there- fore anticipated tbe general proposal of the premiori, and the time which baa elapsed ha* been sufflcient to enable us to form a Judgment of tbe effect of an arrangement of this kind. and I have to say to you that, while I cannot but gratefully acknowledge the Intention of this proposal and Its sentimental value as proof ot good will and affection, yet that its substantial results have been altoTOthcr disappointing to ^ us, and I think they must have been equally disappointing to its promoters. I shaM circulate to you another paper which contains very fully tbe whole of tbe statistics showing tbe course of trade In Canada since 1897, and tbe results of the preferential tariff. But I may give you in a word or two tbe most importart .conclusions. I am comparing now the import trade of British goods into Canada m tae year 1896-97, with the last year for which I have tbe returns— 1900-1901. The total imports of Canada increased In that period £14,500,000, at tbe rate of 62 per cent. That shows an en- ormously Increased prosperity in tbe Domin- ion ; It shows bow the energy of its Inhabitants Is developing Its trade. Fourteen and a half millions and sixty-two per cent : it you will kindly bear in m'.nd those figures <\s showing the total result of all the import trade. Of that tbe free trade, upon which no duty Is levied and upon which therefore no preference is given to British goods. Increased £6,250,000, or at the rate of 67 per cent. The general trade, that is the trade from foreign countries which came under the general tariff, also increased £6,250,000, or at the rate of 62 per cent. But the preferential trade— the trade upon which this advantage bad been givon to British goods, only increased in tbe same time £2,000,000 and only at the rato of 55 per cent. So that the rate ot increase under the preferential tariff was ac- tually less than under the general tariff and also under the free tariff. Or taking it In an- other way, the total Increase of the trade of Canada with foreigners during the period named, this is including both the trade subject to the tariff and also the free trade, was 69 per cent while tbe total increase of British trade was only 48 per cent But now I want to point out another thing which I think will be of great Importance, and which I am sure the government of Canada must have taken into their serious consideration. What return has been made to them by the forelRner for the advantage which the foreigner has derived from their tariff ? The exports from Canada to foreigners have decreased 40 per cent, while the exports from foreigners to Canada have, as I have said, largely increas- ed. On the other hand. In spite of the tariff, In =p!*e of evorything in the natural course of trade and communication, the exports to the United Kingdom have Increased 83 per cent la IB nrteen years, and the net result, which I de- sire to Impress upon you, is that la spite of the preference which Canada has given us, their tarirf has pressed, and still presses, with the RFpntest severity, upon Its best customer, and lius favoured the foreigner who is constantly | ■loinK his best to shut out her goods. j Of course It Is only rlglit that l>otli sides I of tiie question sliould be prrsentod, inul it Miiiy l)e sn'.d In reply to Mr. Ciiamlieiialn tliiit Willie the imports of Cnnail.i from the niiitlipr country are only 29-(>2 per cent of llio ncgregate trade between the two coun- til(S, nevertheless the imports of the United St:itcs from Great llritaln are only 2320 I rr cent of tlie asjirecate trade totwcen Iliose two countries. In other wordj, Great r.ritain buys from tiie United States nearly, four times as much ns the United States lin.vs from the mother country. This lias continued year after year, notwIthstandinR I lie opinion of some tiiat you cannot sell to any nation from which you do not also; I'lUL'iuise. The experience of these twc> conntries does not lienr out tiiat argument. Tlie trade relations lK>tween Canada and the mother country are much more favour- nlile to the latter than are the trade re- j latlous of the mother country with the j United Sqjes, and yet we receive, not- j withst. .iding the preference, exactly the same treatment as the Unlte^^ States doe« In the British market. This is a circum- stance which we have urged uihui tlie atten- tion of this House over and over agjiin. On this subject tiie Finance Minister lias scoffed at our views in his speeches of days pone by, hut they arc views wiilch acconiliiK to his speech of yesterday he Im prepared to tnlce into more serious consideration than ever lie did before. There is another aspect of tliis matter which Mr. Cliaml)prlaln did not bring to the attention of the Canadian ministers, und which shows in even a more striking manner than the figures v lilcli he present- ed, the trade relations as between tlie mother country and other countries as com- pared with Canada. I.et us look at the statement of the exports from the United Kingdom to foreign countries and to ( . a- ada during the past ten years. In prepiir- Ing this table I have taken the latest re- turns that were available. I could not get returns later than ISiK) for some of these countries and with regard to otlicr.s 1 was not able to got tlie returns for the year l.S!K), with which I started the comparison. Hut giving the House the comparison :is it is, here is what we ilnd : >T.\TEMEXT OF E.VPORTS FRO.M TIIK U.MTKI) KlSLPOM TO FnUKICX Coi NTItlE.S AND CaNAD.\. 1890. France lloll id Italy IWjpum K|iain Sweden Norway Portugal . Mexico Switzerhind German Empire. Kn-isia I 'enmark Canada •'t, 17.".,2SO ti;n,(ifi7 802, 240 .M7.IW0 TSit.lLH) ,04S,'.'7S r.7;(,77s '.«4,0»2 ,i:i.t,7.">o ,o;»4,!i«o I i8;ii. 2S,2.\S,05O 1890. a,."^t»,ooo 3,7.">3.:fS9 8,;n;s,033 1S90. I21,2S0 li^n.^iio •.'•.'4.72'» is,><.:«io 4'").77« 7."«l,82.") 97«,2."iO 0«-*,2S0 27, ."•fi."','''^ ll.l.W.OOO 4..'?4S.000 6, 780, 930 19iH). Percentage of Incri-xne 190t) over 1896. I 2<;.9.sti, 24,1124, ii.mt. i2,o;f4, 9.''7:>. !>..><0.'>, ."',712, 4,.'fOH. 2,1120, 2,49;i, 320 :«4 7110 240 INK) 778 77.S 98;t 750 12<) ^■.,9.V.t,,VjO 1899. i:t,(ioi,:n;i 1900. f..00.'.,1f,7 9,215,994 :!2 19 12 77 .'■>« Oti 4.-) 10 111 IB 78 rw 04 o:i r>7 27 32 r.7 20 :>4 SHI 4.1 22 19 :v<» n M 00 16 Cnnndn otnndg piRlitb In the porcontapc of iiicrcn!!*- ;iiiil ninth In nctiinl inrronfu- iiniong these fourteen countries, notwltb- ktanding the preference which had been so much relli'cl upon liy lion, gpntlpnien op- poKito ng II means of creating better trade relations between Canada and the mother country. None of these countries gives to the mother country any preference ; they 8too<] on the ordinary trade relations, and yet taking these fourteen countries, we And that so far as percentages are concerned, Canada stands eighth, and so far as octual increase Is concerned Canada stands ninth. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to curne to one or two matters that were dealt with by my hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Fielding) in his speech, ond the first thing I desire to touch on Is the post office revenue. The Minister of Finance told us that the Postmaster General In a recent speech which he de- livered In Toronto, made a perfectly fair comparison of revenue and expenditure when he omitted the Yukon. Why did not the Minister of Finance omit the Yukon when he made comparisons of trade returns ? If It Is a perfectly fair thing for the Postmaster General to omit the Yukon In post office comparisons, surely It Is a perfectly fair thing for the Minister of Finance to omit the Yukon In trade com- parisons. The Minister of Finance spoke of the decrease In letter rates which the Postmaster General has made, but why did be omit to mention the fact that upon al- most eve • other class of mall matter the Postmasti.. (Jeneral has Increased the rates ? Was it not well to bring both these matters to the attention of the House ? And why does not the Minister of Finance gay something about the wages which the Postmaster General pays to bis post office emplo.vt'fs and to his letter carriers ? I have to go down nearly every session to the Postmaster General's office attending depu- tations of post office employees from all over Canada, who point out that their wages have not been Increased for the last twenty or thirty years, and that they really have not enough now to keep body and soul together. Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear. Mr. BOnDEN (Halifax). The Postmaster General boasts of a surplus. Wby, two of his mall drivers were fined In the city of Montreal yesterday because they were driving horses that were not In a (it con- dition. Why dors not the Postmaster Gen- eral Invoke the services of the fair wage branch of the Lalwur Department ? Why does not the Postmaster General call In the Minister of Labour to assist lilni In giving a fair rate of wage to the iiost office nn- ployees 1 Mr. KEMP. Where Is the Postmaster General to-day 7 Mr. BOnnEN aialifax). I am sorry that the Postmaster (Jeneral Is not In his place to-day. I have long thought that the ser- vlces of the Department of Labour could not better be employed than In endeavouring to do something for the post office olHcials from one end o. Canada to thf other, who are complaining that while the necessaries of life have Increased from 2."> per cent to 50 per cent during the past six years, their wages have remained the same in order that the Postmaster General may boast to this House ond to this country, that by leaving a portion of Canada out of con- sideration he really could pretend that he had a surplus in the year 1002. Then the Finance Minister referred to the government railways. He told us that there Is an alleged surplus— No, he did not say that there was an ' alleged ' surplus ; he said that there was a surplus, but I would prefer to call It an alleged surplus. Every one knows that the mode of arrang- ing charges as between capital account and revenue account In the Railway Department has been changed by this government ; and If the Minister of Finance appreciates so much the methods adopted by the Post- master General, why did he not give us a comparison of the railway accounts on the former basis ? Let us look at the way Lc got his surplus of last year. He chargea no less than $4,020,841 to capital account, and then claimed a surplus of $r>7,S08. And my hon. friend the Minister of Trade and Commerce thinks that a most gratifying exhibit of the railways of this country for the year 1002. The hon. Minister of Finance told us wli.Tt the government had done with regard to trade matters during the past six years. Tbey bad bad trade negotiations with the \ 17 \ mother oountry. nnd tlip nrt rcmilt of tliwie net'otintionK. Mr. Speaker, you will rpcrct to U'lirii. Ik ii itlilne. Tliey liiivc biul triule iK'KutiiitioijM with l''riuio(>. and you will iili' In nil ciis-a whrro BUclj countries fail lo ad.nlt Can.idlan prodnrtu and mnmifactures npon f.iir terir.D. and thai iho governmpnt glioiild taKo fnr this piirroBc all auth uvallati|« mpusiirc:; as may be found niccs- aary. Strong ':inguage vas ti>eil in the subject by members on this siile of the House, but with no effeet on tiie government. Iiidied. the hon. .Minister of lliianci'. so far as one could uiidcrst.iiid liis liiiigUiig<". seemed In- clined to justify the attitude of tielln.iliy. The attllnde of tills g..\eriim(iit with regard to Cierimuy reminds me very much of tliat well known l>lay • Tlie I'll' ate Se.-relar.v.' i You remember tluit w lien ilie old Ind'.an colonel comes liouie and meets ilir poor lillle rlllille, tile private M'.-leljiy. ;llld mistakes him for liis nephew, wiioni he expected to find no milksop, bo •idilr.-i- ses certain questions to hlin. Tlie yoiiii:: man gives very weak rejiljes In very et'- femiiiate tones. I'.y and tiy, the old gen- I tieman gets .so e\a.'-lieialed that lie seizes I him by the b:iek of the bend, i-iiffs liini ans : • now, look heali. if you do that ai.Miii. I'll get weal cwoss with you.' That is aliont the attitude of the <"avidlau go\ei niiieiit towards (iermany during tlie past siv years. Cermany lias been e.xeiuding onr products from her markets by imposing upin tlieni an eiiorm ms tax, while admitting the jiro- diicts of otlier countries under her niinimum tariff ; nnd nil we have been doing during these years has been to say to her, ' if yon do this again, we will get real cross witli yo\i.' Now, we are getting really cross with iier, because we are going to imiKise a sur- tax against her. That may be a very gi od thing : luit. In tlie lirst place, I think action of tliat kind should have been taken by the government four «u' li\e years ago, Instead of voting doWii n-solutlons which we pro- 18 poaed, nnd refUMlnx tb<> Home any Informa- tion on the Ruhjcv't In the lecond place, •o fnr an this Rartaz la concerned, I tbink we are getting too mnch governmeat by Order In Council In tlila country. Practical- ly the whole tariff la In audi a poaltlon that the government cnn deal with It by Order In Council— can deal with It on the eve of a general election. If we are going to deal with Germany, we bad better put the Act on our Btatntebook, and deal with her at once. I am willing to atny here all sum- mer, If necessary, or any reasonable time, for that purpose. But If the surtax Is to l>e Imposed by Order In Council, why does the hon. gentleman deal with It In such a way that he will have to come to the Hous" by and by and have made It more elastlo '.' In Ills speech he pointed out the necessity of making the tariff more elastic with re- gard to the Importation of raw materials used In manufactures, and one would have supiMjsed that In dealing with the surtax, he would have taken a similar course. In- stead of applying It to all products alike ; and if be gives the Governor In Council power to Impose a surtax The MINISTER OF FINANCE. There Is nothing about the Order In Council. The surtax Is Imposed directly. It is In force to-d«y, subject to the qualification that the Order In Council may make regulations with regard to It. Mr. BOIIDEN (Halifax). It Is dealt with now ? Tlie SIINISTEK OF FINANCE. It Is dealt VI-. ih now. Mr. nORDEN (Halifax). If that is tin case, I am glad to know that It Is In Urn witli wlijit we on this side of tlie House have advocated. But if the tariff on Gei^ man goods Is to be dealt with during the present session, it would be well to make the surtax elastic, because there may be goods Imported Into this country from Ger- many upon which It would be unwise to impose a surtax of 33i per cent, while on other goods it might be wise to impose a very much larger amount. Tlie MINISTER OF FINANCE. Who Is to determine the difference ? Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). Tbia Houae, I think, ought to determine the dltferenc* ; and we wlU have an opportunity of deal- ing with that question when the bon. gen- tleman's resolution cornea up for diacusalon. I think the House ought to deal with tbcaa matters instead of leaving them to be aet- tied by Ordera In Council. Certainly ther* are a nunilier of Instunces rf bis practice In tbe resolutlona. The MINISTER OF FINANCE. No. Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). Are there not some Instances of this in the resolutlona which the hon. gentleman proposes ? The MINISTER OF FINANCE. Not with relation to Germany. Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). I am dealing with the general subject of Orders In Coun- cil and with regard to materUila for manu- facturing steel rails, my hon. friend baa adopted that system, which, I think, Is an unwise one. The MINISTER OF FINANCE, has been In tbe statute for years. That Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). It has been followed In this country to some extent, but my hon. friend seems inclined to In- crease it, and that Is what I am objecting to. Now, the attitude of the government with regard to preferential trade Is a most extraordinary one. I do not propose to deal with the question of preferential trade by any resolution which I will submit at thia Juncture, because 1 think It should be dealt with by Itself at a future period. But I think I should say a few words with regard to the attitude of the government on this subject. This preference to the mother coun- try was Inaugurated In 1807 or in 1808 by thr singing in this House of the national antiiem and my right hon. friend the pi-e- mler went across to Great Britain and told the people of the mother country why Can- ada had seen fit to make this preference. He told them that Canada was giving it as a free gift and did not want any compen- sation. I sliall not read his language as it has been quoted to the House many times, but I cannot refrain from quoting these words : 10 It U • trM gift. W* aak no eompanuttoa. Protactlon bM been tba curie of Caaada. Wa would not »*t jrou come under Ita baneful In- lluenrp- for what weakeni you muat weaken ui. The Colitlen Club aroae In the purity of ItM frt'o trade prlnclplpi, and pre- sented mf bon. friend with the Cobden Club medal. Then he came back and we dlacusned the matter In thia House and coun- try. We were told, from one end of the country to the other, that Canada, by means of thIa 33i t>er cent itreferpuce, had already Dbtalnrd a preference In the liritiah market. We were told that Caniidtt had already a Rubstantlttl prefen'uce In the lirltLsb market. We on this aide moved resolutions which nre almost Identical In terms with that Qn- (illy adopted by the ropreaentatlvea of this eovernment nt the colonial conference. And these resolutions were voted down time after time by the government and its supporters. I.et me read one of the resolutions which we moved In this Ilou.te. Sir Charles Tup- por uiovt'd iu the si's^iun of l'.H>j : That thIa House Is of opinion that a system of mutual trade preferenco between Great Britain and Ireland and the colonies would greatly stimulate Increased production In and commerce between these countries, and would thus promote and maintain the unity of the empire and tliat no measure of proferenca which falls short of the complete realization of such a pulley ahould be considered as flnal and satisfactory. Well, Sir, resolutions were adopted with regard to this motter at the conference. I.et me read the first clause of the resolution In which the representatives of this govern- ment concurred : This conference recognizes that the principle of proferenllal trade between tba United King- dom and His Majesty's dominions beyond the seas would stimulate and facilitate mutual commercial Intercourse and would by promoting the development of the resources and industries of the several parts, stren;then the empire. There Is a dilTeronre In the lansuaRe of the two resolutions, but none whatever In the meaning, yet my right hon. friend called on Ills followers, In the year inOO, to vote down the very resolution which he sub- si>quently proposefl to the colonini confer- ence. In nil the debates In this House on tills subject we w.»re tolJ that we had a preference in the British market, and that we were not to appronrli th« mother coun- try III any huckstering spirit. The bon. Minister of Agriculture, in addressing mom (ban one gathering on tlie ottier side, told Ills lienrers. with the stiiictlon. no doubt, of Ills collenBues. that Ciiiinda wanted no comitensiition for the preference Kiven. .Mr. S|>eaki'r. who la .lolng the tiuckstering now T Who is not only huckstering now, but. by the somewhat undiKnllied tlir.'at In the me- morandum handed the lni|ierlal government, niid expres.sed more broadly yesterday by llle .MIiiistiTof riiijiii.f, U Icllliigtlie Hrilisli government that unless we get some com- pensalioii. the piefereiice will be repciliHl. I wonder If. In mikIi an event, we alinll sland up and sing • (Jod Save the King,' or what action will we tak.'. I'itIiu|1!i. wIm'm tills preference is re|)ealed, my lion, frleiids on the other side will get up and sing tho ' Star Spangled Ilanner." We wore lold that Canada had u sulistuiitial prefeienee in the Hrltlsh market. If It liad. wliy are my Iiou. friends demanding anything from the Hrltlsh government nt present, and why are they threatening to n-poul tlil.s prefer- ence ? Look at their whole attitude. Only two years ago my right lion, friend, iu an- swer to myself, said that It was perfect folly to discuss the question of preferential trade unless Canada was prepared to adopt free trade. If the right hon. gentleman doubts my word, let him send for • Han- sard.' I-ast year my hon. friend tlie .Min- ister of Finance told us that tiiis one sided preference was a good thing, not only for tlie motlier country, but for Canada. Well, Sir, If It is a good t' ' Canoda, why arc hon. gentlemen liucksteiing about It 1 Who are . -ksterers now t My right hon. friend lold us on one oc- casion that we had tlio^uttllude of tiio.«e who were willing to wound, but afraid to strike. Who are willing to wound but afraid to strike now ? Who are making niKlignl- (lod threats ? Did yon ever. Sir. In all the course of yr.iir parllanu>iit;iry e.Tpoilence, see a more extninrdinary exhiMllon of som- ersaults than that which the government has Riven ns ? The fact is Ihey began with Groat Ilritain, as with the Uiillcd Sf;ites, by giving up everything. Thoy gave (Jreat Britain a preference with a groat hurrah. They told the lucitlier loiiulry (imt we gave it in return for tlie splendid frooilom we so riiloy. tlint wp wniitod no oonip^-nwitlon nncl iliil iiiit vniit to »<><> Oiinndn curicti wltb pro- (rttitiii. I'lve yoniB nftprwimlx tli»>.v WfMt lo till' coiuiiiiil coiirfr«'iie<>, iiii<1 Kt'tttoK down ii|K)n tlioir liniidt iiiid kni>pf<, tbey nft:- eti f r II pr»'f«'i-»Mni' ill till' liiiiluli mill-- ki'Jd. uiid tlireafoiicd, If refiiMt!, to tiiki' iiwiiy from GM'iit Britnin tlint prcfprfiiii- ill I'Ur niiii'k)t», whlfh tlu-y »nld wi- liml slvcu to tlie mother oouutry without Ut'slie for (•ouiiiciis'iitlon and ns her due. Let uie |(oliit out thnt these geiitleineii who were so luerry ubout a certain r<'ians prohibi- tive, that large quantities of goous wire im- ported, and that a great proportion ot theso came from foreign countries. In any lints iu which It appeared that the goods would be manutaciured in Greet Britain it might be poj- iibie lo so rendjujl some du'.lcs as to s'ne an additional advantage to the British m:iDUfa,- turers, and thus turn over to him a volume ol trade which at ..eisent is held by the manu- faaurcrs ot foreign countries. The Canadian minisiers stated that if they could be assured that the imperial govermmnt would accept the princlpl? of preferential trade fcneraliy, and particularly grant to the food #.-oducts of Canada In the t'nited Kinglom exemption from duties now levied, or hereafter Imposed, they, tbe Canadian ministers, would be pr-'par-d to go J.inhcr into the subject and endeavour to give to the British manufactaror lom* locreated ailranitg* ever hit forelneem- petiiors In the mirh«is of Caniida. But I do not dwell upon this, havliiu a Dumbi-r of other matteri, perbupa of more Importance In connection with the trade question, to deal with before I coiicliide, and I do not wish to Impose upon the pntieiicc of the House. .My li'vn. friend the Minister of I'liianee says that this Is not nn opportuii" time to make any revision ot the tariff. lie talks to the protectliuilsts and the free trader* of this country very much as be did In 1M>7 and 1808. The time Is not opportuiio to do certain things. He has put Into his speech as much of protection as he thouKht his free trade friends would swallow, and ns iiinch of free trade ns he thought his pro- tectionist friends would support ; and be has extended t3 the manufacturer this year the same invltattou wblcb be gave before and to wblcb be referred In bis speech— ' cai; .igaln.' There was a little bit of con- troversy between the Minister jf Klnaiice and the hon. member for St. Mary's (Uou. Mr. Tarte) as to what was said to the manu- facturers last year. The ex-Mlnlster of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Tarte) Is not usually regarded as a very stupid man. Some peo- ple In this country have occasionally con- sidered him as a man of very acute intellect. Yet that hon. gentleman failed to grasp what the Minister of Finance meant when he was talking to the manufacturers last year. If the hon. gentleman's (Hon. Mr. Fielding's) colleagues were deceived, it Is probable that the manufacturers were deceived also. The Minister ■ * Finance tells us that be Invited them to call again because he knew they could call again In any case, not only tblt ' year, but next year and the following year. So, he considered there was no Implied pro- ■ nilse ill saying : We will do nothing for ! you this year, but coiue next year. But the luanufacturers might understand It differ- ently. What was It wo had the year befure ! last '! Oh, yes, the Joint High Coiuuilsslon. i It had escaped me for the moment. It was I because of the meeting of the Joint High Commission that we had no revision of the tariff In I'JOl— and I do not go further back than that year, lu 1902. It was the Colonial Conference. This year it Is a combination of SI bolb-the n-Milt of lh<« Colonial ronferonc* li» ullllwd In order tlit.t •ouip i«.iiiilii «'f 'I'" proporiloii of tlip coninioditlfi wliloli we Joint llluli Couimlsslon. Now. of ioiiihc, | nri- l>ii>lii« from fniclKi- cinililrlfK iiiii>- I)* I'vpij- Olio will rpgnnl Unit ii» liltflily «nll»- : nindf liy our own proiilr. I liavi- liiTf a fiKtiii-}-, niul, 111 •inii' ipiii't''''* '< "'" '•* : •tnti'iiiont rIvIiib .i ponipniNoii of oiir Im- fippliiiiilcd im very liiKttiloii». Tlio Kovcrn- | p„riB from the rnltrd Htatc* In a iinnilxr of iiipiit liol miisuniiitlon as I llitd lliat nlio liy Ulllnu of anotlur iiujIliiR of tlie ^ „.oiild be too (lllllcnlt to niako tlip ron- Joint IIIkU Commission. Tlio Mlnlnfir of g„,„|,tion owIiik to tin- way In which llie rinanop tt'Us tlicm In offect : We do not rpimnn lire niado np : know that It will amount to iniicli; ami, If j ^^ It doi'B not, wo will taki- the tariff of othor l^^^™'"' cuuntilos Into coii«ldorntlon. Thin i\ill li%f^ roKTS Kni'M THK I SITBI) STATED. 1»0(1. '>>*". Kn-p. Iiii'lalile, Total. :iis.674 t "71.(3.1 1,413 t,4i<2.iu 5.:m 3;>: K,045,5S0 10.71S,.i:5 19,742.117 ;8,096.7riJ 31.3S0 $ 494.706 t &20.0S6 r'02. 1902. Kore.st 4.0W.722 4.0.1s,722 2.fi72.V.)5 d,:;51.615 Klsherii's. vpry pleasant for the gentlinien who mft- j Interested In thl« matter. In fnet, they arcj p,,j,,,|pj, | jj s,>n.2TS they atiU. We make uo proml«e». say* the Agrlcultur.il pro Finance Minister ; It may happen that a free! ''"i*" trade sentiment will spread over the coun- Mniiurn.tur.s. try, hi which case, we can tell yon to go about your business, for we bnveT made no promises— but you had better ..me back and see us next year. And, no doubt, these | ADlmals and pro- gentlemen are very highly pleased with the| "t""^'* 4.'.7;.5'..5 position of niTnIrs: and the Minister of >"ln- 1 *«'''^^'|_"'"-''' '"■°' . „^. ance, no doubt, will acconipl'sh the result whieli he Intended by putting his speech In that highly diplomatic form. I in this table I have ,. alt with total Imports. The cliiinieter of our Imports has some- j 1 would auk my hon. friend the Minister thing to do with the question, whether or ; of rinaiice whctlier he thinks Increases of not there should he n revision of the tariff that kind are necessarily Indicative of In- this year. We all admit the necessity, as croascd prosperity In the country. Hut I I have already said, of a liberal public ex- 1 have gone a little m<.re Into detail and have pendituro for Canada and of a tariff which prepared a statement of dutiable imports lIUi (9 .Manufac tur''S. n.SiW.'-Sa 8,4U'.4ri 7.;'67.462 11.544,604 19,512,006 25.532,617 46.885.102 72,417,749 will produce a liberal revenue. But look at our tariff, and then also consider whether we have In Canada any resources which can be developed, any raw material which can from Oreat Britain and the United States —and I am dealing with total imports^^so an to show a coiuparison between 181HJ and 1902:- 25 ^TSt; Statemevt of Privcipal Dvtiadle Imports from Great Britain and United States, 1896 axd 1902. (Total Imports.) Great Bbitain. United States. ISitfi. Anini.il8 . . . . «rp!»datuff«.\. Fruits $ 6,o«n 79,983 ifloa s 22,323 107,890 H»y.. Ho|is Pnivisicma. . Veftetables . 25.711 12.709 23,631 30,147 32,804 Inciease. I 1S96. lfi,254 87,907 9,708 4,43« 20,095 i;«,3U5 270,795 CirriajTOS Cement Cotton and iiianufactiiics . . . Dnijfs, &c Karthi'n and chinawarc Klcctrical apparatus Vancy piods Flax, 4r (ilaxs and inanufactiirt'S tlat.s and caps Ijcathrr and manufacturi's . . Iron, Hteel, metals and manu factiire of Bra-ss. eopiicr, Rold, silver and manufacture of Affricultural impl'iuonts. . . . Painta and oils Paper and manufactures Wo1 and manufactures Kul>ber and manufactures. . . Silks 123,430 3,:<00,505 .38!l,990 82,681 523,820 872.598 1,466,382 17,081,776 813,852 2,0,34,385 2,202,437 1,042,063 1,407,808 354,621 625,218 5,992,191 110,258 66.5,868 .527,.S.36 209,864 1.S5,243 1,040,.594 159.002 18,580 101,641 408,.548 442,097 l'l,2S6,0Il 258,263 2,219,452 l,O46,!)03 .308,788 639,818 140,191 31.3,549 24,508,922 60,732,592 20,163,670 Thus It win be aer : that of tbe articles ij^reat Bri ain and tUe United States, \^lch have mentioned oar imports from Great^giiows a large increase for the year 1002j B'-itaIn increased between 1890 and 1002 l)y no less a sum tli.nn $8.9. Now, Mr. SpenliPr, is tl*re any reason ' ! a very consideral)le portion of these artic. , , inlglit not Up produced in Canada ? Is it | wise to delay a revision of our tariff, even j under present conditions and thorough revision of the tariff, we could produce or manufacture in Canada a very consideralde portion of tiie articles to which I have caiiod attention ? Now, I will give another tal)ulated statement wliich siiows this increase In a more striliing way. Tiie following la a statement of certain dutiable gojds Imported into Canada from over ISfxj :— # Increase 1902 over 1896. Animals ) 934,129 BreadstufTa 2,727,786 Provisisna 1,289,453 Cotton and manufactures 2,239,921 Drugs 662,706 Earthen and chinaware 4S8,660 Electric apparatus 1,047,758 Flax 384,989 Olass and manufactures 277,801 Hats, caps, leather and manufactures 1.088,593 if, by a judicious ' Iroa, steel, metals and manufacturer. 13,637,773 ' Brass, copper, gold, sUver and manu- factures of 238,263 Agricultural Implements 2,219,452 Paints and oils.. .. ^. l,tS6,046 Paper and manufacturns of 479.743 Wood and manufactures of 639,81S Wool and manufactures of 2,053.122 Rubber and manufactures of 412,704 Silks 312.972 $32,596,636 ssX 23 The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. What w.Ts the heading of that Inst table ? Mr. IJOIJDEN (Halifax). That was the In- crease of the total Imports of certain du- tiiililt' soixls iinpi)rted into Canada from (in-nt Britain and the Vnlted States In tlit> year 1002 as compared with the year ISW. I will send It over to my lion, friend If he desires to see It. I have endeavoured to uiaUe these statements with the utmost possible accur- acy, and they have been Ronc over more than once. Possibly my hnn. friend may find some trifling inaccuracies In some of them ; if so. of course, they are altoRetlier unintentional, and I will make any explana- tion about them. It is ditlicult, as the Minis- ter of Customs knows very well, to pick out these items from the various portions of the trade and navisatlon returns. A great deal of time has been spent upon them, and I think the table has been prepared with a fair degree of accuracy. In addition to these, in looking at tlie free li.st, I find the following striking imreasos in I'.KG over lSO«i :- Broailstuffs $2,337,318 Iron, steel, metals ani manufac- tures of 8,794,812 Cor 'age 1,G8J,772 112,865,932 These figures deal allogollier with in- creases, and do not take Into consideration Imports from countries other than Great Britain and the United States, tlie Imports from which are comparatively small. Now, having regard to the enormous Increase in our imports of many commodities and ar- ticles which should be producen or $.",0.(100,0(10 had been produced In Caiinda Instead of being Ira- ported, and If the ,"0.000 Canadians wlio are said to have gone Into the state of Massa- chusetts between ISltt and lOOtl had re- mained In Canada ? I- It not apparent that, with regard to a great many of these arti- cles, a very consiJorablo portion of them might, and Indeed ought to be. produced In Canada ^^'hy should Canada Import : Breadstuffs to tbe amount of $11.73I.2SS Provisions and vegetables 2.1)81,109 Iron, steel and manufactures of.. .. 33.«si,(i26 Woollen and cotton Roods* 20,!I38.719 Electrical apparatus l,:!7:t,023 Hats, caps, leather and manufactures 5.11* of. !.S.13 Agricultural Implement.? 2.6r,t,00O Paints and oils 2,1SI.42« •Raw cotton not Included. $7!>,37f..2S8 The aggregate of these articles wliich I h;ive enumerated Is the enormous sum of $70,370,288 wortii Imported Into Canada in 1002, a good deal of which I think we could have, and n good deal of which I tiiink we ought to have, produced in l^aiiada. My lion, friend says : We are not going to re- vise the tariff. We have not time to revise the tariff, we have soinetliing else on our minds which will prevent us from revising It this session : and therefore we will in- vite our friends to call again, and we will content ourselves with making the trifling changes In the tariff which have already been referred to. Sir, It seems to me that our policy In Canada should be to accoin- plisl^he following ob.iects : - JC^n so arrange our tariff that all legiti- mate Industries at present established In this country should be so protected as to insure as far as pi ssible peiiii.iiieiK'y under conditions of depression as well as in times of commer cial expansioiu * C!!.)'i^o Invite capital and attract labour to the establishment of other Industries which the resources and raw material of our coun- try ampl y Justify. / To preserve by means of an adequately protective tariff our own lioiiie market for Mir own people and to have the policy of the |bvernment_8u_deelared aiul iiml(Tst ood._^ ^i7\n framing our tariff in liave regard solely to the interests of Can.ida which have been eonimitted to c^ur rli.irse. alllinii'Jrti re- cognizing that in cousulllng our own in- i tcresls we must not be uniiiiiulful of the 'tariffs raised against us by olJH-r countriesj V — (T" To so frame ourTTscal phliry tfinf labour In Canada siiaii lie paid a fair living wage, I remembering always that our labouring classes and therefore our pr.xbiceis and 24 iiimnifncturcrp ciiiinot be fxpected to com- IM'tc on evi'ii terms with countries in wlilcli tlie coudition of life among the labouring clitsses is nltofretlier difffrent^ We do not ilosij»-«o rt'lllll'l' O^r BTiflni'ln^ poViliitlon to Tip low stimdard oil living, to ™at hard fuite stnif-'sle for exisHtnce which Vrevai Is in many countries. W^s^o not wMit our Inbouriiig classes to conip^e withouX pro- tfction apalnst the pauper ftk^our of\iny country. t). To utillzr llic labour of our own people In conversion of our own raw material into finished products required for use In our own ccuntHMnt Is surely bad policy to export ou^rSw material, to send our labouring classes abroad to another country to find work in its manufr.ctorieB and to send after both our money to pay for the linlshud pro- duct which we recjuire. Canada Is bound to become n great agri- cultural country and her farmers are en- titled to every possible protection and as- sistance. But we have enormous and varied resources the reasonable development of which will build up, not only In the east but In the west as well, great Industrial centres of population which will afford a home market better than any foreign market for very large portions of our agricultural products. We know now that one of the matters of regret among the Americans who are coming by thousands into our great North-west is that they do not have in the west of Canada the home market which they Iiad in the United States by reason of the great Industrlol centres which have been built up in the Western States. I believe that by a policy of adequate protection, such as the Liberal-Conservative party has advocated, is advocating and will advocate In this country, we will build up, even In the west of Canada, great industries and great industrial centres. The value of our home market can- not be placed too high. We know the value which has been placed upon It in the United States of America. We know that the United States have always carefully guarded their home market and it is apparent from the utterances of her public men and leading business men that they propose to preserve It in the future. Those of them wlio have discussed measures of reciprocity with other countries have always declared that any system of recipro!• isomicuve two buy these goods In the cheapest market, months ago that the Trime Minister was a What if the advent of these goods Into the protectionist, but still two months have In- Canadian market closes up Canadian fac- tervened and the right lion, gentleni.in may tories ? What '' ^anadian farmers leave have changed his opinions since. Cnliliiet their farms ar (io to the United States and uilnlsters and their followers have given < on- find the employment which they cannot find tllctliig views from time to time on the iiucs- at home ? I believe that for another reason . tloii. Last session the Minister of Kinaiue a policy of free trade such as was advo- j made an announcement which was regarded eated years ago can never be an acceptable | i,y some of his followers as a declaration policy in Canada. Free traders in Great j that the tariff would be raised this sessi .n, Britain, possibly men who might lie do- i xiie lion, gentleman from Alberta (Mr. Oll- serlbed as doctrinaires so far as this country J ver) distinctly stati-il in this House tliat that Is coneernod because they do not realize the j was his construction of the remarUs of the conditions which prevail here, regret that ■ Finance .Minister, and he was nut (orrected Canada n.is not followed the example of the i i)y any ni'-nilur of tl;;' novenimeiit at that •mother country and adopted free trade. It I Uiae. The .Minister of TruJe and Commerce 26 (Bt. Hon. Sir Ulchard Cnrtwrlght) made last Bcsslon one of the most pronounced free trade gpeoclies he ever made In his life. It would be well perhaps that I should refer to some of the language which he used then. In order to show his words, by way of con- trast with those of other ministers. The l^irae Minister congratulates himself that he has assembled In his cabinet men of every variety of opinion with regard to fiscal matters. Well, he certainly has a very strong contrast in some of them. Listen to what the Minister of Trade and Com- merce said last session, and we will know when he gets on his feet now whether or not he Is of the same opinion : I do not mean to say that a government may not be corrupt ana yet act protectionist. Tbat may be. But I do say that human nature be- ing as It Is, it Is almost Impossible lor a gov- ernment to be protectionist and escape being corrupt. But the Slinlster of Trade and Commerce, according to Ideas of gentlemen on his own side of the House, Is In n protectionist gov- ernment nt present, and he says It Is diffi- cult to be In a protectionist government and not be corrupt. Of course. If he Insists upon It, we are bound to take hlin at his word. The Minister of Trade and Commerce thus continued his remarks : And I will add this further ; I will add that while I think protection and corruption .ire practically inseparable ; I will add that I like- wise believe for my part, that protection and true freedom are all but absolutely Incompa- tible. On that I will give you words of another more eloquent than any I can utter. Here are Bome remarks which are very much indeed to the purpose. The gentleman whom I quote sayi : • I come to expose to you the policy of the Liberal party. Let me tell you that policy may be resumed In the good Saxon word ' freedom ' in every sense of the term ; freedom of speech, freedom of action, freedom of religious life and civil life, and last, not least, freedom In com- mercial life In the American Republic you have the line of cleavage which exists between the Liberal party and the Conservative party— the question of free trade. We stand tor freedom, they stand for restriction ; they stand for servitude ; we ■tand for freedom. I denounce to you the policy of protection as bondage ; yea, bondage, and I refer to bondage In the sam^ manner In which the American slavery was bondage ; not In the ■am* degrs* perhaps, but In the same manner. ... In the same manner the people of this country, the inhabitants of the city of Winnipeg especially, arc tolling for a master, who takes away, not every cent of proflt, but a very large percentage, a very great portion of your earning! for which you toil and sweat I do not tell you that we must have no taxation, but I do say that the government has no right to take a cent from you or me ex- cept for the necessities of the revenue, and It the government takes from you any portion of your earnings, whether the portion be large or small, to give to somebody else that govern- ment Is as much a robber as the hlghwaymnn who puts a pistol to your forehead and says : " your purse or your life." Admirable sen ^s, admirably expressed with that force a eloquence with which my right hon. friend (Ut. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurler) usually puts the case before his audience. Sir. BROCK. See them smiling. Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). After the session the Finance Minister went to Yarmouth, and he spoke there ; the Finance Minister at Yarmouth, the Minister of the Interior (Hon. Mr. SIfton) In his organ and In per- sonal Interviews, the Minister of Agricul- ture (Hon. Mr. Fisher) and the Minister of Customs (Hon. Mr. Paterson) In Argenteull. the Postmaster General (Hon. Sir William Mulock) on the public platform and In bis organ, the Minister of Inland Revenue (Hon. Sir. Bernler) at St. Hyaclnthe, the Minister of Railways and Canals (Hon. Mr. Bhilr) In New Brunswick, the member for Guys- borougb (Mr. Fraser), the member for Hants (Mr. Russell) In Yarmouth, and m..ay other members on the government side of the House have proclaimed their adherence to free trade, and have denounced any at- tempt to Increase the tariff. On the other liand, the Prime Minister, through the mouth of his Minister of Marine, announced In Mnlsonneuve that he was In favour of legl- tim.tte protection to Canadian Industry, and the Slinlster ot' Marine appeared on the platform before his electors as a protection- ist. The member for West York (Mr. Camp- l)ell), the member for South Wellington (Mr. Guthrie), the member for West Huron (Mr. Holmes), the Prime Minister of Ontario, the .attorney General of Nova Scotia, the Ifon. .lames McMjlIen. and a great many other very prominent gentlemen In the Liberal 1 party have proclaimed themselves In faronr of Increased protection to tUe industries of tliis country, and they have supported the position of my bon. friend from St. Mary'a (Hon. Mr. Tarte), and have said that the government should have adopted the policy whle • 'id been advocated by that hon. gen- tlema:i (Hon. Mr. Tarte) before he left the preseiit administration. Now, Mr. Speaker, what really nre we to make of the attitude of the Liberal party in that regard ? I leave It to you. Sir, If, after carefully digesting, as I know you have done, the speech of the Minister of Kinance yesterday, you are one whit the wiser as to what the policy of the Liberal party Is with regard to protection and free trade. I know, Sir, that by the usages and custom of the House you are debarred from making any answer to my question, and, of course, I put the question only in a formal way, but I am quite satlsQed, Mr. Speaker, that if you were at liberty to answer you would be Just as dumb as you are at present. Some bon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). Now, Mr. Speak- er, the Conservative party believes in a policy of adequate protection ; a policy of such adequate protection as will maintain and strengthen Canadian industries ; such a policy as will give our own market to our own people That policy we have declared in all parts of the country. We believe that such a policy Is In the Interests of ail parts of Canada and of all classes of the commun- ity. I think that word 'adequa*-' attrocted the attention of my hon. frit i Haldi- mand, and I will give h. ry good authority for the use of thai J Ijy and by. In the western states the policy of protection has found favour with the farm- ers, because they see built up In all that western country great industrial centres ; because they feel the advantage of a pro- tected home market, and because they know that without the protection of that home market they would get very much less for their products than they do at present. As I said before, I believe that the farmers in the western part of Canada will have the same experience, and that they will learn, even more than they do at present— and they do very largely realize It at present— the ad- vantages of our home market ; the advant- ages to this country of the protection of the home market so far as nil classes of the people nre concerned. It is sometimes said that the farmers can- not be protected. My hon. friend the Min- ister of Trade and Commerce took that uround Inst year. He sold the only way in which you could protect them would be l)y giving them a bounty. I want to point out to my hon. friend that there are people in this country whose claims have been denied by this government— I refer to the lead miners of British Columbia— who look on this matter In a somewhat different as- pect. During my visit to the western part of this country I found that they complain- ed bitterly that the tariff fails to give them any protection whatever, while the farmer has a very considerable protection. After enumerating a nunil)er of implements uptm which a duty must be |iaid by the minw, they profccd as follows : Wheat protected by a duty of 12 tenta per bushel : oats protected by a duty of to centi per bushel ; hay protected by a duty of }2 per ton ; potatoes protected by a duty of 15 cents per bushel ; eggs protected by a duty of 3 cents per dozen ; poultry protected by a duty of 20 per cent ; cattle and sheep protected by a duty of 20 per cent ; hogs protected by a duty of 25 per cent : fruits protected by a duty of 25 per cent ; condensed milk, canned at Truro, Nova Scotia, protected by a duty of 3i centi a pound ; pease, corn, beans, canned, protect>d by a dut, of 21 cents per pound ; apples, pears, peaches, canned, protected by a duty that aver- ages over IflO per cent ; preserved meats pro- tected by a duty of 25 per cent ; ham and baron protects by a duty of 2 cents per pound • cheese nrotected by a duty of 3 cents per pou hutter protected by a duty of 4 rents per po.iad ; and so on. It will l)e observed fliat the lead miner of the west entertains an, entirely different view from that expres.sed last year by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, tis to the possibility of protecting the farmer. I nm not suKKCstiiig that the protection to the fanner Is too high; I think It Is not hlgi, I enough. I I)Plleve that upon many agri- cniturnl products the duty ought to lie In- creased, so that a country like Canada, possessing agricultural capabilities second to none in tlie world, should not be handi- capped in competition with the United States and should not be obliged to import from i 1 28 that country nearly $28,000,000 of agricul- tural and animal products. The farmer Is protected In tliU country to a certain extent. He should be protected to n greater extent, and the Conservative party will be prepared, npon attaining power, to give him a furthtn- measure of protection which In Its opinion the Interests of the country demands. The tide of "ndustrlal expansion seems to be at Its height on this continent. It has been expected that its ebb would come be- fore this. It has not yet come, but It will come us surely "» the »'bb follows the Mow of the ocean tide. All business men are agreed on that. When It does come, the protection afforded to Canadian industries by the present ad valorem tariff will de- crease with the decrease In prices. In many rc«pccts it is insufficient at present. It will b» utterly Insuttlcient tlien, when the time comes that we shall have to face the slaughtering in the Canadian market of goods from the United States. Have we no suffering Industries at the present time ? The hon. gentleman says that the time is inopportune for maliiug any change in the tarilT. What about our woollen industries our cotton factories, our lion and steel In- dustries ? Vo these not feel too keenly the stress of foreign competition ? We have the lead mining Industry of Uritish Columbia crushed by the united effects of an American combine, an American prohibitive tariff and a non-protecting Canadian tariff. The most niag'.iilicent mining country in the world U practically paralyzed for the want of pro- tection, while my hon. friend says that we have not time to deal with this ,000 of agricultural products and pro- ducts of animals, and we sell to them of the same articles less than $8,000,000. A'l our producers and manufacturers are con- fronted In that country by a practically pro- hibitive tariff. I maintain that the finance .Minister does not take the proper view of the situation when he says that we had bet- ter postpone the revising of our tariff until after we have negotiated on trade matters with the United States. Their tariff Is practically double ours, and we with a tariff half as high as theirs are going to nesoiiate with tlieni. What Is the objection to put- ting our tariff on a better and fairer basis first, and then going to negotiate with the United States ? Why do we have to wait until my hon. friend the Prime Minister gets further letters from Senator Fuirlmnks in re- ference to resuming those negotiations wlilch I thought from the right hon. gentleman's remarks In Montreal about a year ago had come for ever to an end ? I say it is bad policy first to give to the United States such concessions as we gave in 1807, to con- tinue these concessions to the present year, and then to say that w - will avoid toucli- ing our tariff at all In order that when we come to negotiate with the United States we may go there handicapped. No, the stronger policy is the better one. Let us first deal with our tariff from the stand- point of our own interests, recognlstlny; tliat in doing so we must have regard to certain conditions existing in other countries. Then, having dealt with our tariff in n strong and bold way. If the United States desire to negotiate, we can Inform tbem that we are at tlieir service and ready to take up the matter at any time they may desire. Sir we propose at this juncture to renew otu- declaration of policy f last year with regard to the tariff. As I have already said, the question of preferential trade will be dealt with later. Tlie resolution wliicli I wish to move is as follows : That all the words after the word ' that ' in the proposed motion be left out, and the fol- lowiDg substituted therefor :— s» Thli House, regarding the operation of the present tariff as unsatisfactory, is of opinion that this country requires a declared policy of ■uch adequate protection to its labour, agricul- tural products, manufactures and industries, as will at all time secure the Canadian market tor Canadians ; And that the flnanciaJ policy of the goTern- ment should Include a measure for the thorough and Judicious readjustment of the tariff at the present session. Some criticism has been made upon the wording of this resolution. Some gentle- men have found It difficult to attach any Intelligent meaning to the word ' adequate.' I have noticed on some occasions that tbe ■nme bon'. gentlemen made use of the word and found It good enough to servo their purpose. Let nie say that the hon. Minister of Marine and Fisliorles (lion. Mr. Vrf- fontnine) favours 'legitimate protection.' I liave Ills language declaring that policy, un- der niy liand, used by him in a recent cam- paign in Maisonneure. I suppose that ade- quate' is quite as definite as 'legitimate,' particularly when coupled with the proviso that the protection we ask should be ade- quate to maintain the Canadian market for Canadians. My hon. friend the Minister of Hallways and Canals (Hon. Mr. Blair), this (Kssion, when Introducing bis Railway Com- mission Bill, expressed his opinion that It would ' adequately protect ' our shipping in- terests. Yet my hon. friend the Jllnlster of Finance says that the phrase 'adequate protection* Is absolutely meaningless. I commend his criticism to his hon. coUengtie, tlic Minister of Railways and Canals, and I trust that tbe speech of the latter will be revised in accordance with that criticism. I Bnd also that the provincial premiers In- troduced the phrase three times in their re- solutions which the government is now con- sidorinir. Would it not be well for my lion, friend lie Minister of Finance it he ad- heres to the opinion ho expressed in Halifax, to send these resolutions back to the provincial premiers for an explana- tion of this moaninpi^ss phrase whlcli they have used. But I have a better autliorlty than nil these, one I nm sure my hon. friend the Minister of Finance will not question. A certain editor of a newspaper published In Halifax some years ago, and published there still, used tlie following strong lan- guage with regard to the ooal duty : The coal duty is a confrsscd mockrry— a« organized hypo.rlsy. The real owners of Nova Scotia have been fooled, as »c predirtcd they would be ; they get no adequate proiectlon. My hon. friend the Minister of Finance, who wrote that article, does not understand now the meaning of the rrni 'adequate protection' wlilcli was then used by him in that article. That orly shows how some of us travel backwards in our education. The MINISTER OF FIN.\N(U^. On both sides. Mr. nOUDKN (Halifax). Most of us go a little forward, but my lion, friend, in this regard at least, has found liimsolf tnivolliiig backward in his comprehension of the Bng- lish language. With these excellent authori- ties, especially the last, perhaps the Minister of Finance may be ineiiiu'd to reconsider his obiter dictum. Sir, I concur in the eloquent words which my hon. friend the Minister of Finance ut- tered in his peroration. We all realize now the wealth of onr resoiiroos. the siilmidour of our heritage. It Is true that the Mlier.ii lead- ers in days gone by did not entertain the same view of the great west whkh has been expressed so eloquently by tlie lion, gentle- man. The great Conservative leaders of the past had opposed to them men who, in ail sincerity, saw nothing in tlie province of Rritish Columbia, save a seji of mountains, who saw notlilng In our great west but a land incapable of paying for the oil requir- ed In operating a transcontinental miiway. But let bygones be bygones. Tlieso gentle- men sec now what the groat Consfrvatlvn leaders of bygone days saw years ago. Wo arc glad that now we all think alike on this subject. We have a great country, a great heritage, and, tliercfore. great responsibili- ties. I fear not for the future of the west, nor do I believe that any narrow or sec- tional spirit now pervades or will pervade the people of that country. Like the people of tlie east, they will stand for a liroad and strong Canadian policy, a iiolU-y which will give to our producers the advantage of our own markets, and to onr labonring people a fair living wage; a polli-y which will lie<'i!«ur 30 j-oni^ men In our country nnd nnder wlilcli wo cnn all unite In upbuilding a bappy, pros- pcronn nnd contented Cnnndn. I beg to move the following nmendment to the motion of the hon. the Minister of Finance : That all the words attar ' that ' tn the pro- posed motion be left out, and tlia following substituted therefor :— • This House regarding the operation of the present tarllf as unsatls- factorr Is of opinion that this coantrr requires a declared policy of such adequate protection to its labour, agricultural products, manufacturas nnd Industries as will at all tlme^ secure the Canadian market for Canadians ; ' And that the flnanclal policy of the goTern- ment should Include a measure for the thorough and Judicious readjustment of the tariff at tha present session.' k