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Les diagrammas suivants illustrent la mAthode. irrata to pelure, n A 1 2 3 32X 1 2 3 4 5 6 % 550- THIRD R E O R FkOU TBE SELECT COMMITTEE ov ^- Emigration from the United Kingdom: 1827. .■f Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Prmttd, agjttne 18.27. 550- T n::r''viuui) REPORT MINUTES OF EVIDENCE APPENDIX 4 "- .^4 P« 3 p. 43 P.45« { 7\ s \ • /•••■».■ R iri^? ilJM.ii THIRD E P O R T p. 43 p.45> ( V- THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to consider the Subject of Emigration from the United Kingdom, and to whom the Report of the last Session, and the several Petitions which have been presented to the House, in the present Session of Parliament, on the same subject, were referred ; and who were empowered to report their Observations and Opinion thereupon, together with the Minutes of Evidence taken before them from time to time, to the House : Have further considered the Matters to them referred ; and have agreed upon the following REPORT: YOUR Committee having brought their inquiry into the general subject of Emigration to a close, have the satisfaction to present to the House a general and final Report. There have been already laid before the House diree successive Reports on this Subject : the first at the close of the Session of 1826, by the former Committee; die two others by Your Committee, in the course of the present Session. These two last have been Special Reports, and relate to incidenttd points. The First being of a more general nature, was limited to the record of certain fiuits and principles, which, upon a careful re-examination, Your Committee are prepared conclusively to confirm and support It recorded the existence of a redundancy of Population in e;ttensive districts of Ireland, and in certain districts of Scotland and England. It Hmited the meaning of the term redun- damy to a supply of abIe*bodied and active Labourers with their families, for whose labour there was no effective demand. It maintained, that the effect of this redundancy was to reduce the wages of labour below their proper level, by which much destitution and misery were produced in particular places, deteriorating the general condition of the labouring classes ; and that the labourer, for whose services no real demand exists, consuqaes more than he produces, and consequendy adds nothing to the general annual production, but so far tends to' diminish the national wealth. It contrasted the general effects of a redundant population in England, where it is supported by a parochial rate, with the result in Ireland, where it is dependent for support on the pre- carious funds of charity, or at times on the more dangerous resources of plunder aqd spoliation. It recorded, that this redundancy was found practically tQ repress the industry, and even sometimes to endanger the peace of the country, creating mendicancy, outrage, and diminution of occupation, with every attribute of excessive pauperism. It adverted to the immediate effect of a practice, now in active operation, of Rearing estates by the removal of a redundant pauper pqpnlation, for the purpose of placing such estates under improved management in the hands of a few substantial tenants, and to the probable consequences of such clearing, in all cases, where no measures were taken to provide for the ejected parties ; and it pointed out the manner in which a judicious system of Emigration was calculated to effect such provision, 550, As tt *-J->^- / I 1 1- Pi ' %^ 4 THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE It laid down the principle, that neither parishea in England, nor Scotland, nor districts or proprietors of lands in Ireland, could be expected to contribute for purposes of Emigration, unless it could be demonstrably shown that their interests, both general and pecuniary, would be benefited ; and the Report anticipated the certainty of such demonstration. It considered the evidence on the state of Ireland to have established the important fact, that although no direct levy for the support of the poor takes place in that country, a burden is yet imposed upon it for their relief, which, though not legally assessed, is not the less a practical grievance, and a subtraction from national and individdd resources. It olyected in the strongest manner to any system of Emigration supported by public assistance, which was not etamtially voluntarj/ on the part of the Emigrants, or which did not propose to remove that part of the community, who, being in the possession of health and strengtfi, were notwithstanding in a state of permanent pauperism. It recorded generally, that in the Briti$h Goloniea in North Ameriea, at the Cape a/Good Hope, and in New South Wales, and Van Dtemen's Land, there were tracts of unappropriated land, of the most fertile quality, capable of receiving and subsisting any proportion of the redundant population in this country, (of the nature and character to which that redundancy had bean limited,) for whose conveyance to those colonies means could be at any time found. It adverted to the benefits which would specially accrue to the colonies by the accession of such population ; to the expense at which Emi- gration, ob*aD extended scale, might be carried into effect ; and to the proba« bility of the repayment of any capital advanced, by the subsequent contributiOD of the Emigrant. It adverted to the market for the increased production of the colonies, which, would arise firom the cultivation of die land by each ntocesBive series of Emigrants; and the demand, for the maoa&ctures. oC the mod^r CQuntcy, which would accvue at acomparativdly later period. ' Anotiier most important subject of consideration in that Report was,, the degree of probability of any tiemporary vacuum being filled', up which might be produced by Emigration. Such collateral measures, both of a legislative, and practical' nature, as might be calbul'ated to repress, if not ta prevent the replenishment of such vacuum, were also considered, and to some of those measures the Report specifically referred. An object also of primary im- portance in the consideration of !&nigration as a national measure, was referred to in that Report, namely, tiie e£fect of the removal of a comparatively small excess of population, in benefiting and improviiig the conditbn o£the remaindisr ; and the R'eport finally concluded by expressing, the decided conviction, of the Committee, that its circulation, and tiiat of the Minutes of Evidence, throughout the United Kingdom and' t&e Cblbnies, would enable any future Committee to resume tiie subject witii the means of proposmg measures sufficientiy definite tO' justify tbeir recommendation ofUtem to the House for its adtion*. Your fc^U^J^a. |l I 11 1 III II ii [ I II I II. t I ^,,,^.1,,,^ I I I ■ I I ■ • *- The advantages that may be expected fifom tha examination of the Evidence taken before- the Btaignttion COaunittee, may be estimated by the answers which Mr. Wihm, a Roman inlOD. Your Committee, after a most careful revision of the Evidence, and after having passed and repassed throUgii their minds the complex eonflidemttona which are involved in an inquiry into so extensive tod unexanuMed a subject, are decidedly of opinion, that the evils of a superabundant ag^iealtural pauper population, for whose labour no adequate demand exists, may be, if not re- moved, akaltfially pattated by a system of Emigration on an extended scido. They are also of opfaaen, that it ie not for the separate interests of trelamd, where redundancy is proved to cMist in a greater degree, but for the interests of Great Britain, and for the general advantage of the whole Empire, that such an experiment should be rtiiide. They earnestly beg to iitopress tfpoti the attention of the Houflie, that unless aft early diversioh be provided by' Eh>igrti<-- tiott to eftec-k the inereflising irrtiptiott of the/ pauper {VOfiultttidn (Vf Ireland, which flow pours itself into Scotlaftd arid England \«tth atormiiig rapidtty, ho other rtfsurt y all theie anticipated II the atten- the relief to M wretched- rhe evidence louse cannot [embers who [)d whatever I undeniable, 'ed with any the labourer vidence, that rate, rather to the party beg to refer itions num- iar modes of Iroduction of ineral pro- ish to press imishing an lives a self- neasures are ncrease, byt J, which, if liter equality I the present in Ireland, lectual dis- Dn will be kcultural im- (ne of insur- re the intro- and to the ntcd to con- sider ON EMIUHATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 7 .aider the State of Ireland, will prove that many of the moxt alarming insurrec- tionary movements have either originated with tenanU diapoaseiied of their farms, or have been materially aggravated in their citent and duration by the discontent and wreicliedness of this class of the population ; and it must be obvious, that so long as the population remains in this statu, it must at all times furnish abundant materials to be worked upon by turbulent or designing indi- viduals at any period of temporary discontent. The evils of a redundant popu- lation, with all the incidental consequences, have been universally felt and acknowledged; and various suggestions have been made for their partial relief. , > ■ ^ But Your Committee cannot but eipress their opinion, that a more effectual remedy than any of those temporary palliations which have been offered, is to be found in the removal, by Emigration, of that excess of labour by which the condition of the whole labouring classes is deteriorated and degraded. The question of Emigration, as connected with Ireland, has been already decided by the population itaelf ; and that which remains for the Legislature to decide is, to what poinU the Emigration shall be directed, whether it shall be turned to the improvement of the North American colonies, or whether it shall be suf- fered and encouraged to take that which otherwise will be, and is, its inevitable course, to deluge Great Britain with poverty and wretchedness, and gradually but certainly to equalize the state of the English and Irish peasantry. It may not be superfluous to state, tliat subscriptions have actually been entered into for this very purpose of promoting Emigration to Great Britain ; and the daily increasing communication between the two shores affords a facility for the execution of this system, the consequences of which cannot be viewed without alarm. In point of fact, the numbers removing from Ireland to England have infinitely increased, and the character of the emigration has been changed from one of labourers leaving their small farms and cottages, to which af^er a tem- porary abeence they were in the habit of returning, into an emigration of vagrants, who have neither the ties of home, nor the hope of obtaining pro- vision to induce them to go bock ; their only hope is to obtain in England the means of subsistence, which they can effect in no other way than by displacing a certain proportion of the labouring English classes in consequence of their competition. Dr. Elmore, an English medical gentleman, who has been re- sident for twenty years in the south of Ireland, states, that subscriptions are now actually in progress for removing paupers from Ireland to England (especially to Manchester) in bodies of about forty each, so that their arrival may not excite any particular jealousy. The details upon this subject will be found in his evidence given in answer to the Questions numbered in the margin. And in the Ap- pendix will be found some Returns from the Mendicity Society in London, showing the great increose of Irish paupers upon their lists during the present year, as compared wi.L former periods. Your Committee cannot too strongly impress upon the House, that between countries so intimately connected as Great Britain and Ireland, two different rates of wages, and two different conditions of the labouring population, cannot permanently co-exist. One of two resulto appears to be inevitable, — the Irish population must be raised towards the standard of the English, or the English depressed towards that of the Irish. The question, whether an extensive plan of Emigration shall or shall not be adopted, appears to Your Committee to resolve itself into this sin^>le point, Whether the wheat-fed population of Great Britain shall or shall not be supplanted by the potatoe-fed populatiMi of Ireland ; whether Great Britain, in reference to the condition of her lower orders, shall or shall not progressively become what Ireland is at the present moment QUESTIONS, 44«2, 4413- 5.50. A4 But f From QuMtion a6oi to 2612. I THIRD UEI'OKT FKOM THE SELECT COMMITTEE But Your Committer, in advi>rtini; to iht rcdundititt popiiUtiun in Irvlta^ cannot but pr««a upon tho sttetitinn of the IIoum tho condition uf th«t part of it (lilliuled to in tiir UcportorJMt yt>iir; which, undnrthi; prt'neiit circuin»tanc«a, ia uioru peculiarly and Ntrictly nidundiint, and to a raai- on which they eonmiv* that Emigratiou may be brought to U.-Mr with most iniportanl and bcnalikuial results. Your Coniroittflu b«-ff to rrfer to a late Act forthn prevention of under-tcnanej in Iruland, and to the obittaele* which at prenont nt%nA in the way of it* eileetual operation. From th« uniform tenor of the evidence ^iven by the Iriak witoeaaea, it appeara that there iM now amonf; the Landownera in Ireiand, a f|>rowlng con- viction (already ulmost univcrial) of the mincliief of the ayHtuni of art under- tenantry, and of the eiceaa of population whicli attenda it. They are aatiified that the beat chance for tho improvement of their catatea and the ameliora- tion of the condition of the people ia the removal of thia griovancc, by tho ejectment of that exceaa of tenantry, under the precautiona which the late Act afforda againat ita recurrence. In many parta of Ireland, and those obvioualy the most crowded, this process is constantly and extensively in force, checked only ill some cases by motives of humanity, and the dread of immediate disturbance of the peace. The miserable beings, thus dislodged fl'oro their abodes, find thcmfielves without resource or refuge. They first make an attempt to establish themselves on the next estate, upon the samo footing ; if that expe- dient fails, with the trifling pecuniary means derived fVom the remission of their rents, and the sale of the stock which their landlord may relinquish, they proceed to the nearest bog, or to a neighbouring town ; the little money acquired by these means is soon spent, employment is scarcely to be obtained, and the most abject existence is supported by the assistance of the establishments for the suppression of mendicity, and the Government, which contributes to provide funds for the purpose. In the towns, distress accumulates in proportion as it decreases in the country, whilst a population of vagrants is gathered together in a state of misery, thereby affording materials for disorder and crime. By such a popula- tion, the rate of wages also is generally depressed, the means of obtaininpf com- fortable maintenance is rendered impossible, and the most miserable cabins are multiplied, on the bogs, and in the suburbs of the great towns. The ultimate consequences appear in contagious fever, of the prevalence of which an illustra- tion will be found in the fact, that within the city of Dublin, alone (where it has been accurately ascertained) out of a population of t^o hundred thousand inha- bitants, sixty thousand cases have passed through the hospital in the course of the last year. That this account is in no manner ovei^charged, Your Committee have only to refer for proof to the forcible and concurrent testimony of the Irish witnesses, from whence it is almost wholly drawn. That the causes which produced this state of things are in a course of constant progress, as there asserted, can hardly be questioned ; and in respect of Ireland alone, the conse- quences to which they may ultimately lead, if some steps be not taken to check or correct their action, it is difficult to measure or foresee. The evidence of Mr. Dixon (referred to in the margin) respecting the practical difficulty of landlords in Westmeath eating the ejectment of their extra or sur- reptitious tenantry, is of the utmost importance. From that, and much other similar evidence, Your Committee ai'e convinced of the general feeling entertained by Irish Proprietors, of the advantage to be derived from diminishing the population on their estates. Your Committee en- tertain no doubt that this feeling is strong enough to induce them, in many instances, to make a pecuniary, contribution towards the expense of Emigration* ; and * Your Committee would specially refer the Mouse to tho evidence of Mr. Leslie Foster, upon the subject of giving facilities by law to Irish proprietors, to charge their estates for the ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 9 aad Your CommiltM art Airthar of opinion, Uuit the Mune fcsliiig would lead Hknm moM eitenaively to avail tbcnuelvea (a* tbay would then be able to do) of the proviaioM of the Act already alluded to, for preventing the recurrence of the evil ; in which caae alone the removal could be beneficial to the pro- prietor or to tiM country. If an Irish proprietor were to remove joo peraoni, including 100 beads of families, from his estate, for the purpose of throwing that estate into larger farms, and were to pull down the 100 cottages in which those 1 00 families may have lived, and not suffer them to be re-occupied, no comparison can exist, with reference to the advantages of Kmigration, between a supposed state of things, and tho mere abstraction of labourers to the same amount, whose tenements may be immediately inhabited by a similar clau of persons. That which is true in a single instance, is equally true in considering Emigration as a general measure in Ireland. It will be impossible to show that so great a ratio of increase can be expected to take place, in consequence of the emigration of pauper tenants, as would have taken place in the popula- tion that might have existed in Ireland, had they not been removed to the Colonies. Your Committee, however, are not pn-pared to recommend that any legislative provisions should be made to prevent by law the re-occupation of those cottages, or to enforce their destruction, because they are satisfied that it is from the growing opinion, which is spreading itself among the whole gentry of Ireland, that the principal security is to be derived for their not being again occupied : if it were not for this growing opinion, -that it is to the interest of the proprietors, in the best understood sense, to resist all collateral circum- stances in favour of the excessive growth of population, Your Committee are aware that any legislative measures of a compulsory nature might in various ways be evaded. With these observations Your Committee dismi' this part of the Bubjett, which peculiarly applies to the circumstances of Ireland. They would, however, recommend to the attention of the House, the Evidence at large, as furnishing very detailed and valuable information. The testimony which was uniformly given by the practical witnates, who appeared before Your Committee, has been confirmed in the most absolute manner by that of Mr. Malthus ; and Your Committee cannot but express their satisfaction at finding that the experience of facts is thus strengthened throughout by general reasoning and scientific principles. Mr. Malthus was asked, whether he had taken into consideration what may be the effect of the continued increase of the population of Ireland, upon the condition of the labouring classes of England ? He stated, that, in his opinion the effect will be most fatal to the happiness of the labouring classes in England, because there will be a constant and increasing emigration from Ireland to England, which will tend to lower the wages of labour in England, and to prevent the good effects arising from the superior prudence of the labouring classes in jthis country. He stated, that he has understood that in the western parts of England and Scotland in the manufacturing districts, particularly in Manchester and Glasgow, the wages of labour have been lowered essentially by the coming over of the Irish labourers ; which opinion. Your Committee beg to observe, is confirmed by the evidence that has been given by witnesses resident in those districts. Mr. Malthus is of opinion that this emigration will tend the purpose of raising a fund for the Emigration of their redundant tenantry ; and to the opinions of Irish land agents of the advantages which, in certain cases, would arise to the proprieton from the emigration of that class of occupants. — Vide Mr. Dixon's Evi- vidence, questions 9506, a^07, a^oS, asis, 9516, fcc. 550. B X to THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEB tend materially to alter the habits of the labouring class in England— to force them into the habitnal consumption of a sort of food inferior to that to whick they are now accustomed, namely, potatoes; and the danger of the use of the lowest quality of food is, that it leaves no resource in a period of scarcity; whereas in the case of a population habitually living on wheat, there is always the resource of potatoes to compensate for the failure of an average crop. He is also of opinion that it will necessarily throw a greater number of the English labourers upon the poor-rates, inasmuch as, if there be a redundancy of labour in any English parish, the presence of Irish labourers universal^ seeking for employment would prevent such English labour from being ab- sorbed. He stated, that he was satisfied no permanent improvement would take place in the case of the English poor, if a portion of them were removed by emigration, as long as this influx of Irish labourers into England continued without a check. Mr. Malthus stated, that unless a change took place in the management of the land in Ireland, he can only anticipate an increase of poverty and misery ; and that such change cannot take place, unless something is done to remove the people. lie admitted, that if the people increase and continue in their present state, there can be little prospect of any greater degree of tranquillity and security in that country ; and for those reasons, he is of opinion that it is particularly expedient to attempt to introduce emigration on a large scale from Ireland, especially a» he Mnderstands there is an intention on the part of landlords to make the ch^< ^d in question in the management of their properties. He was finally asked, " What is your opinion of the capability " of Ireland to become a very rich and flourishing country?" he answered, " My opinion is, that it has very great capabilities ; that it might be a very " rich and a very prosperous country ; and that it might be richer in proportion " than England, from its greater natural capabilities." — " Do you think any " one circumstance would more tend to accelerate that state of things, than " a judicious system of emigration put into force in that country ? I think " tliat a judicious system of emigration is one of the most powerful means to " accomplish that object" Very important evidence, by Mr. Leslie Foster and Mr. Nimmo, will be found, with respect to the cultivation of the Bog lands of Ireland; but wbatevw may be thought of the advantages which might arise from such an application of capital, they would in no degree supersede, in the opinion of Your Com- mittee, the benefits to be derived from a contemporaneous and systematic principle of Emigration. • .» . II.— ENGLAND. FOUR Witnesses were examined by the Committee of 1 826, respecting the state of the Pauper Population in parts of England. Your Committee have examined on this subject, during the present Session, twenty-two witnesses, including the Bishop of Chester and Mr. Ilyett, who belong to the Committee for the relief of distressed manufacturers ; Mr. Burrell, a member of Your Committee, and an extensive proprietor in Sussex, where the evils of a redun- dant population appear to exist in a most remarkable degree ; and several landed proprietors, clergymen, manufacturers, and overseers of the poor. Four of these witnesses were examined with a view of ascertaining whether the Waste lands afford an opportunity for the employment of the pauper population, m- wiving the certainty of a return; and their evidence has not impressed Your Committee with the opinion that such would be the result. It was admitted, that as far as the direct expense was concerned, the location of the poor on the $ waste ' t! igland — ^to forae to that to whkk if the use of the iod of scarcity; , there is always srage crop. He number of the >e a redundancy irers universal^ from being ab- rovement would 1 were removed gfland continued Dok place in the an increase of nless something le increase and f greater degree lasons, he is of e emigration on •■ is an intention management of }f the capability he answered, night be a very er in proportion you think any of things, than intry? I think rerful means to immo, will be ; but whatever an application of Your Com- and systematic respecting the immittee have two witnesses, the Committee mber of Your ils of a redun- several landed oor. Four of her the Waste >opulation, m- npressed Your was admitted, he poor on the • waste ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. n waste lands at home could not be effected upon terms equally cheap as those ■nder which their Emigration might be effected. Mr. Malthus also is of epiaion that the cultivation of poor lands at home, undertaken merely for the purpose of employing the people, would end necessarily in failure, and would rather aggravate than diminish the difficulties arising from over population. It may not be superfluous to add, that objections equally strong exist to the employment of paupers ou'Public Works with the public money, in cases where such works would not have been undertaken except for the special purpose of thus employing the population. The counties to which the evidence refers are — Sussex, Kent, Cheshire, Northamptonshire, Buckinghamshire, Surrey, Middlesex, Lancashire, Suffolk, Nottinghamshire, and Cumberland. The overseers of various English parishcj who have been examined before Your Committee were all prepared to admit that the removal of a redundant pauper family was a solid advantage to the parish, to be estimated at no less than a saving of ^, 3.;, even if that family had been partially employed, so long as some other family had been unemployed for the same period during the preceding year. They appear to have under- stood accurately the force of the principle, that partially employed labourers are oUten to be considered as redundant : thus, for example, if five labourers could in the year 1828 execute in a certain parish the same amount of work tvhich eight labourers executed in the year 1 827, there would be three redundant labourers ; and if no probability existed that any real demand for the permanent annual services of those three redundant labourers would arise, the parish would gain by contributing lowards their emigration, in the proportion between the expense of such contriuution and the expense incurred by the parish for their maintenance. Your Committee, upon this subject, would more particularly refer to the evidence of Mr. Cosway, a proprietor in Romney Marsh and the Weald of Kent His testimony is to be found in his answers to the questions numbered from 3871 to 3894 in the Evidence. Mr. Cosway not only stated that in the case of eight labourers being employed only seven-eighths of the working time throughout the year, there was one redundant labourer, according to the principles laid down by the Committee, but he also contended that the aggregate work executed by those eight men did not represent the work which ought to have been effected by seven labourers, under the circumstances of a satisfactory adjustment of the supply of labour to the demand. The House will find also that there is a remarkable concurrence among the English witnesses, as to the expediency of raising a fund upon the security of the poor-rates (on the principle of the money permitted to be raised under the Act commonly called Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act) for the purpose of contributing towards the expense of removing redundant paupers by Emigration. A sug- gestion was offered by Mr. Cosway, that in the event of parishes being allowed to mortgage their rates for the purpose of contribution towards Emigration, upon the principle established widi respect to the building of poor-houses, in tiie Act referred to, such parishes would be disposed to avail themselves of the facility, provided they were released from any legal claim on the part of the emigrant pauper, in the event of his return to bis original settlement. Mr. Malthus is of opinion that parishes in England would act prudently as regards their interest, in charging their poor-rates for the purpose of raising a fund to promote Emigration, and that even a national tax would be justi- fiable for that purpose, if a bare probability existed of the vacuum not being filled up. Mr. Cosway also suggested that it would be expedient to enact a law allowing parishes to impose a tax on any future cottages to be built in each parish, the proceeds of such tax to merge in the general poor-rate of the 550. B 2 parish. n THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE h parish. He is of opinion that if there were a real demand for labour in such a parish, there would be no disposition on the part of the rate-payers to impose any tax on such cottages. On the contrary, if private speculation and indi> vidual interest contemplated the erection of cottages, for the mere purpose of ob- taining rent from them, without any consideration of the real demand for labour, Mr. Cosway considers that the power of self-taxation, on the principles suggested by him, would interpose a convenient and salutary check. Your Committee think these suggestions well worthy the attention of the House, although they do not presume to offer any definitive opinion on the propriety of their adoption. The House will find that all the witnesses concur in opinion, that the greatest practical improvement of the Poor-rate system is involved in the discon- tinuance of relief to able-bodied paupers ; and Your Committee are of opinion that such discontinuance will be rendered more practicable by the introduction of a system of regulated Emigration, than by any other measure. On this subject, the questions numbered from 3252 to 3257, were put to Mr. Malthus. " If in England, where a system of poor-rates exists, redundant labourers " were to be removed by Emigration, and it were to be demonstrated that " under the terms of such removal their condition was highly improved in the " country to which they were sent, might not the system of relieving able- " bodied men, which has grown up, as many contend, contrary to the spirit of " the law, be gradually extinguished, to the extreme advantage of the adminis- " tration of the Poor laws in England ? — It certainly might. " Do you not consider that under these circumstances an effectual remedy " would be laid for the prevention of a disproportionate population in future ? " — If at the same time, as suggested with regard to Ireland, the houses of *' those who emigrated were pulled down, I think then there might be some- " thing like an effectual remedy. " Does any other practical remedy present itself to you, as desirable of being " introduced into this country, with respect to the filling up of any vacuum " occasioned by Emigration? — No other occurs to me,^ except the one I myself " proposed a long while ago, that those that were bom after a certain time " should not be allowed to have any parish assistance. " If parochial assistance were rigidly and invariably limitsd to the support " of the aged and infirm, or of children, and universally denied to able-bodied " men who have no opportunity of working, do you think the existence of a " well-regulated poor-rate under such' restrictions would be prejudicial to the " country ? — Perhaps not ; but it appears to be difficult always to restrict it in " that way. " Admitting for the sake of the proposition, that poors-rates were judi- ^< ciously administered under such limitations, are you of opinion that a poorV " rate might not be inexpedient? — At any rate it would be a great improve- *' meat, as compared with the present mode of administration. > " If a system of Emigration could be adopted with benefit to the labourer " emigrating, do you not think that it might justify the enactment of a positive " law, removing all claims on the part of an able-bodied pauper for assistance " or for work, under circumstances of his being in a state of destitution ? — ^As " I should say so independently of the question of Emigration, I must say so ■" still more strongly when coupled with the remedy proposed." T ■ i .; . Your ITTEE ibour in such ^ers to impose tion and indi> purpose of ob- uid for labour, pies suggested ur Committee luse, although priety of their lat the greatest n the discon- are of opinion le introduction ', were put to dant labourers lonstrated that aproved in the relieving able- to the spirit of sf the adminis- Fectual remedy ition in future? I, the houses of night be some- lirable of being f any vacuum le one I myself a certain time to the support to able-bodied existence of a judicial to the o restrict it in tes were judi- that a poorV l^eat improve- the labourer t of a positive for assistance stitution ? — ^As 1 must say so Your ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 13 Your Committee cannot express too strong an opinion against the idea of regulating by legislation the rate of Wages, under any conceivable modification. A distinction, however, exists, between an agricultural and a manufacturing population. The demand for the labour of the former is more or less equal from year to year, involving a comparative equality of wages for certain periods ; whi?fi 'tat of the latter may at any nioment be materially lowered by the cir- cci * .-I 'm i*rl'A •ll'/, Your Committee are therefore of opinion that every endeavour should be made to impress on the mind of the Artisan, that he must himelf, for his own individual interest, carry into effect that practical equalization of Wages, which is absolutely impossible to be effected by any legislative arrangement, or by any agreement between the capitalist and himself. It is the condition of his occu- pation to oscillate between the two alternate extremes of high and low wages, from the causes already assigned. If, at the period of high wages, he does not create a fund which is to meet the alternation of low wages, he can have no jus- tifiable cause of complaint when he suffers the inconveniences of poverty and des- titution from the effect of an alternation which it is not possible to avoid, and from the prejudicial results of which his own prudence might have protected him. At all events, when this truth is sufficiently understood to leave no doubt of its import and bearing, the conviction cannot fail to be produced, not only in the minds of the manufacturers, but in that of the public, that the distress which might have been averted by prudence is not a distress which can require any special exercise of private charity, much less of public contribution. Your Committee cannot avoid to observe that in requiring this exercise of prudence on the part of the manufacturing classes, no more is expected from them than what is carried into practical effect every hour in many classes of the community. It would undoubtedly be an encroachment upon the free agency of any person, in any condition of life, to prescribe to him the extent of his expenditure arising out of his current income; but no complaint can exist upon the part of persons (to whatever class they may belong) who neglect to avail themselves of the application of so simple and necessary a principle. The operation of the Poor-rates has tended materially to prevent the exercise of this particular sort of prudence. The artisan has considered that he had a perfect right to expend his wages when they were high, without making a provision for the future, inasmuch as the parish was bound to support him whenever the alternation of distress might arise. If the real circumstances of their situation were publicly and diligentV impressed upon the minds of artisans, inanufacturin<;^ parishes would be relieved at an early period from the necessity of doing more than contributing the very nunimum of subsistence to all paupers, whose neglect of prudential caution had compelled them to depend solely upon parish assistance at the period of slackened demand and depressed wages. Your Committee therefore, from these considerations, feel themselves war- ranted in concluding, that a system of Emigration might be applicable to the relief of over-peopled parishes in England, in which some security may be offered against a recurrence of the evil. This security is to be looked for in the well-understood interest of the rate-payer, in the greater number of parishes purely agricultural; but in the manufacturing districts and larger towns, where the interest of the majority of rate-payers is merged in that of the proprietors 550. B 3 of Hi 14 THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE of «n inferior class of bouses, and of individuab interested in the low wages of labour, a slighter security exisU for the voluntary prerention of the erils of OTer-population, as Emigration would have a tendency, for the moment, to raise wages and lower rents. i III.— SCOTLAND. FOUR Witnesses were examined before the Committee of 1826 on the state of Scotland. Eleven have been examined before the present Committee : of these, four were Members of the House, and five delegates especially appointed by Emigrarion Societies in Scotland to give evidence to Your Committee. From this evidence, the case of Scotland appears to be that which presents the greatest difficulty. Where the evils of a superabundant population are found to exist, they are not in general under those circumstances to which Emigration could be applied as a permanent and effectual remedy ; and Your Committee would beg to remind the House, that they are not prepared to offer any recommendation in favour of Emigration, unless such collateral measures can be taken as would prevent the recurrence of the evils complained o£ In point of fact there has not been laid before Your Committee any evidence wliich tends to show general or extensive distress from over-population in the agricuU tural districts of Scotland. In some of the islands, indeed, upon the western coast, it does appear that a case exists in some degree, but upon a smaller scale, corresponding with that of Ireland : and there is no doubt that very valuable settlers might be furnished from those parts with advantage to the islands and colonies. The system has indeed been carried into effect, and, it is stated, with advan- tage by some proprietors. Upon this head. Your Committee would refer to the evidence given by Mr. Alexander Hunter. But by far the strongest case of distress appears in the state of the manufacturing districts — in that class, whose places, from the greater fluctuations in trade than in agriculture, would be the most certainly and speedily filled up. Under this impression, it appears from the concurrent testimony of all the witnesses examined, that a general disincli- nation would be felt in those districts to advance any sum for facilitating Emigration; and the numerous applicants who have, by their delegates, been before Your Committee, are in a state which utterly precludes any pecuniary exertion on their part. The universal opinion expressed also is, that even in those districts where the population is, strictly speaking, redundant, the redundancy is chiefly, if not entirely, owing to the formidable influx and competition of Irish labourers, who seem already to have in a great measure effected in the manufacturing districts of Scotland those alarming changes in the condition of the lower classes, which have been already pointed out, under the head of Ireland, as calculated to excite such serious apprehensions with regard to England. Your Committee feel themselves called upon to add, however, that those evils have been much increased by the facilities with which settlements are obtained, by the " uncertain and hazardous state of the law," (as expressed by one of the witnesses, a Member of Your House,) with regard to the liability of real and personal property to a rate for the maintenance of the poor, as also by tiie doubt who are to be considered " the poor," and by the absence of all law of removal. On the whole, Your Committee are of opinion, that although the • '' ' Scotch to OS EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 15 Scotch Emigrants are in most instances very valuable settlers,* and although there is a strong disposition among the people to emigrate, yet, as a national measure, more effectual relief may be afforded by a reconsideration of the laws above alluded to, and by the diversion elsewhere of the influx of Irish paupers, than by any system of Emigration which might be applied to the removal of the Scotch population. IV. — REMARKS on the application of a System of regulated Emigration to the circumstances of the three Countries. HAVING thus adverted to those circumstances which appear to them peculiar to the thi'ee kingdoms. Your Committee beg to make a few general remarks on principles equally applicable to all, and upon the soundness of which the value of the remedy proposed mainly depends. The first and main principle is, that Labour, which is the commodity of the poor man, partakes strictly, as for as its value is concerned, of the circumstances incident to other commodities ; and that its price is diminished in proportion to the excess of supply as compared with the demand. If the demand for labour be great, the wages of labour are high : the poor man, therefore, sells his commodity for a high price. A contrary state of things produces a converse of results. If this proposition be admitted, it follows that if the supply of labour he permanetitlv in excess, as compared with the demand, the condition of the lower classes must be permanently depressed, and a state of things in- duced which is incompatible with the prosperity of a great proportion of the population, and equally so with the general interests of the country, which are involved in the equalization of national prosperity. Your Committee feel it expedient to bring this simple principle prominently forward, for the purpose of refuting the erroneous notions and opinions which are attempted to be incul- cated upon this subject. The capitalist in England is reproached that he intentionally ' withholds from the artisan those wages which are fairly due to him: the fact being, that the rate of wages depends upon the supply of labour (whether manufacturing or agricultural) as compared with the demand for it. It is not to be expected that the capitalist will purchase the commodity, labour, which he requires, at a higher price than the market rate. If machine labour be as effectual, and more cheap than manual labour, he will purchase it, that is, he will employ it in preference. If it were to be contended tliat he ought not to do so, the converse proposition would be equally true, that when the wages of labour were high, arising from an increased demand, t\\e capitalist would be justified in calling upon the artisan to take lower wages than the market-rate. In other words, if the artisan can fairly call upon the capitalist to pay him wages higher than the market rate when that market rate is low, the capitalist can, with equal fairoess, call upon the artisan to take wages lower than the market rate, when that market rate is high. The one proposition is as unjust and as impracticable as the other ; and Your Committee are persuaded that the House will concur with them in the opinion, that there is no point which requires more to be explained to the lower classes, than the impossibility of regulating by law either the maximum or the minimum of wages. It is from an entire ignorance of the universal operation of the principle of supply and donaad reguladag the rate of wages, that all those extravagant pro- positions • It appeared in evidence, that many of the hand-loom weavers were acctistomed to agricultural occuoations. B4 !«- THIRJ REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE From QuMtion 3770 to 3865, and " Further Papers," in Ap- pendut N* U positions are advanced, and recommendations spread over the country, which, are so calculated to excite false hopes, and consequently discontent, in the minds of the labouring: classes. Among the most extravagant, are those brought for- ward before Your Committee by a Society professing to be established for the purpose of bettering the condition of the manufacturing'and agricultural labourers of Great Britain. The extent of misconception which appears to pervade the- opinions of this society, can only be fully understood by an examination of its doctrines, as explained in the Evidence and Appendix. Another elementary principle, to which Your Committee beg the particular attention of the House, and in confirmation of which all the practical evidence, without exception, may be quoted, is the effect ofa comparatively small excess of labour occasioning a deterioration of the condition of the labourer in the par- ticular district where such excess exists (or supposing the excess to be general, the consequences are equally general,) and the consequent improvement of the whole body of labourers by the abstraction and removal of any superabundant portion. Every practical man, whether agricultural, commercial, or manufac« turing, is well aware that the excess of the supply of an article bondjide brought to market over and above the demand of it, whether of annual or even of weekly sale, will deteriorate that article, not merely in the ratio of the excess, but in a much higher ratio ; and that, conversely, the Supply being less, the demand en- hances the price in a similar ratio. It is only necessary to prove that that which is true of commodities, is equally so of labour, to justify the opinion that the abstraction of a comparatively small number of labourers will remedy the evils incident to the existence of excess in the supply of labour, ar compared with the. demand. The rule, however, applies much more forcibly to labour than to commodities, for in the case of any commodity, the owners might at once withdraw a portioa and keep it back, in hopes of the real demand increasing ; but the holders of labour, that is, the labourers themselves, have no store-rooms in which their com- modity can be bonded, but have only the alternative between the' offering it at once at the market price, and starvation. With respect to this principle, of the influence of a small excess in the supply of labour, as compared with the demand, and of the consequent benefit of the removal of that small excess, the following Answers were given by Mr. Malthus : " 3258. Are you not of opinion that the general situation of the labourers is deteriorated and prejudiced by a comparatively small excess of the supply of labour over the demand ? — Very much so, and sometimes by a smaller excess than one might perhaps suppose. " 3259. Are you of opinion that the removal of a comparatively small part of the population which now appears to be in a state of destitution, might operate to ■ create a considerable improvement in the condition of those who remain ? — Not a verv small part of those really out of work, but a removal ofa small part of the whole labouring population might effect a very beneficial change in the condition of the remainder. " 3260. Are you of opinion, therefore, that that law which applies to com- modities, and which is a matter of notoriety in every market in the country, namely, that a small excess of supply deteriorates the value of an article, applies ' completely and conclusively to labour, which is the article a poor man has to bring to market? — Certainly it does. " 3261. Are you of opinion that, where it is admitted that an excess of labour in all branches exists, any real relief can accrue to the labourers, as long as labour remains in that state of redundance ? — Certainly not" There ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 17 There are persons who are disposed to argue that a redundancy of labourers is calculated to promote the interests of the proprietors and capitalists ; for the consequence of that redundancy will be a progressive diminution of the wages of labour, and, consequently, that although the labourer himself may be miserable, in consequence of such redundancy, lowness of wages will compensate the pro- prietor and capitalist for any other expense which a state of pauperism, under the proposition of such a condition of the population, must produce. But even if it were admitted that the capitalist, for the moment, was benefited by the reduction of wages to the minimum of subsistence, Your Committee are satisfied that the House will in no degree countenance the opinion, that such a state of things would be desirable in a national point of view, but that, on the contrary, the House will agree with Your Committee, that the general prosperity of the country is incompatible with the degradation of any class of the community, much more so, with the degradation of that class (by far the most extensive) who have solely to depend upon the remuneration of their labour for their means of subsistence. Upon this subject the following questions were put to Mr. Malthus, and his answers to which the Committee beg to call the atten- tion of the House. " 3283. — Are not the manufacturer's profits principally dependent on the low rate of wages? — I do not quite agree to tliat doctrine ; I think that wages and profits very often rise together. When the value of the whole commodity rises from the state of the supply compared with the demand, there is a greater value to divide between the capitalist and the labourer; the labourer will have a higher money-wages, and the profits of stock may be higher at the same time. " 3284. — Is not the tendency of a redundant supply of labour ready at all times to fill up the decrease of the labouring population by want and disease, beneficial to the manufacturing and commercial interests, inasmuch as it lowers wages and raises profits, and renders possible a successful com- petion with foreign capitalists ? — I should think that even if that is so, no persons could possibly bring themselves tc encourage such a system with that view. " 3285.— Compassion to the labouring poor, and regard to the public peace, may render the diminution of this supply of labour desirable, but a redundancy is favourable to trade and commerce, is it not ? — In one respect it is, and in one respect not ; it may enable the capitalist to work up his commodities cheaper, and to extend his foreign trade; but it certainly will have a tendency to diminish the home trade, and I think the home trade much more important than the foreign. " 3286. — ^When the labouring class in the country receive good wages, does not the demand for manufactured goods on the part of that class form one of the best markets a manufacturer has? — I think it forms a very important part of the market for manufactured goods of a cheap kind. " 3287. — Would you say that any country could be a prosperous country without having a degree of demand existing amongst the labouring classes ? — I think not; it would only be partially prosperous." ,,..ji , j. It is sometimes laid down, that if any class of labourers be rejected as un- necessary in any particular employment, they will be absorbed in some other branch of industry. But the evidence before Your Committee induces them 10 believe that there is generally such a glut of labour throughout the country, as to leave no hope of such absorption by transferance from one employment to another. Witnesses were asked, whether there was any chance of those re- 550- C dundant ■ff i8 THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE dundftitt paupers in their reipective districto finding employment elsewhere, and the uniform answer was, that if they did go out in search of labour, they were returned on the parishes and districts after an ineffectual effort. In this part of the subject it is necessary not to overlook the difficulty and inconve- nience of taking men from one class of occupation, and expecting them im- mediately to adjust themselves to another. - In such case of admitted redundancy, Your Committee are aware that the doctrine frequently employed is, that it must correct itself by the mortality which diminished food and comfort must produce in the classes of the population in which such redundancy exists. Your Committee would be most unwilling, in any degr'>.e, to encourage the opinion, that it was not 'in the strictest sense the duty of a poor man to estimate his means of providing for a family before he places himself in a situation to have one to provide for; but maintaining, in the sirictcst sense, the necessity of enforcing that salutary principle, Your Com- mittee think that the ordeal through which the redundant population must pass before this kind of remedy can be administered, is one which cannot be con- templated by any wise Government with indifference. It is under this state of things that Emigration appears to Your Committee to be a remedy well worth consideration, whether with refel-ence to the im- proved condition of the population at home, and the saving of that expense which as it appears to Your Committee is now incurred in maintaining a portion of them, or with respect to the prosperity of our Colonies, increasing thereby the general prosperity of the Empire. And they consider the resource of Emigration still more valuable, inasmuch as, unless the evidence taken before Your Committee, in itself of the very highest authority, shall prove to be inaccurate, the expense of Emigration as a national measure will be limited to the mere lending of the capital of the country, with [the certainty of not only an indirect but a direct return. t \ u V. — ^The expediency of a Pecuniary Advance, in the nature of a Loan, for the purpose of facilitating a regulated system of Emigration. The probability of repayment of such a Loan, and the inducements Avhich the Colonies would have to facilitate such repayment. The success of former Emigrations, as bearing upon the probability of repayment. ist. THE expediency of a pecuniary advance, in the nature of a loan, to facilitate a regulated system of Emigration. YouH Committee, taking into consideration the evidence which they have received of the state of the population in Ireland, England, and Scotland, as well as the nature of the colonial evidence with respect to the success of the Emigrations of 1823 and 1825, and the probability of future success, to which they will presently refer, are prepared distinctly to recommend a pecuniary advance, in the nature of a loan, for the purpose of facilitating Emigration. .-> In order to show practically how such a loan might operate. Your Committee propose to state a hypothetical case of a loan advanced to the extent of £.340,000. in the year 1828-29; of ;£. 360,000. in the year 1829-30; and 'of t ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. »9 re of a loan, to of iC- 540,000. in the year 1830-31 ; in the aggregate, ^.1,140,000. Thes* aumt to be applied to the purpoae of Emigration, in the manner which Your Committee will proceed to describe. ... The interest at four per cent upon (,. 1,140,000. amounts to ^.45,600 ; the interest at 5 per cent (that is, four per cent, with a sinking fund of one per cent) amounts to /C-57>ooo ; but at the present price of the funds this annual interest would be less, as it is calculated on the presumption of the funds not being higher than 75. Your Commitee do not presume to suggest how an Emigra- tion loan (were it to be decided upon) should be raised, or when raised in what manner it should be charged ; but for the purpose of bringing their proposition to a practical issue, let it be supposed that this sum of ^. 1,140,000. is raised in certain proportions during three successive yean ; namely, the first year commencing October 1828 and terminating in October 1829, the second year terminating in October 1830, the third year terminating in October 1831 ; pnd in the following proportions during each period : PERIODS. CAPITAL to be nlied. ANNUAL INTF.REST •t 5 per Cent, tliat ii 4 pe' Cent, and • Sinking Fund of i per Cent First Period Second d* Third d" - iSflS-iSsg 1820-1830 1830-1831 £. ' ■ ■ ■ ■ ''i.V • 340,000 360,000 540,000 i. 13,000 18,000 27,000 t * 1,140,000 57,000 In this case, on or before October 1831, a capital will have been raised cf ^.1,140,000. Your Committee now propose to suggest the manner in which this capital of £,. 1,140,000. might be applied for the purposes of Emigration, and which may be conveniently illustrated by the following Table : YEARS. Fimilin ofEaignnti t« be iecatcd. iff CAPITAL neceiMrv to effect llieir location atC.60 for eacli family. AMOUNT of INTEREST at s per Cent, of which 1 per Rent ii •j>tam. a Sinliing Fund. 18(8-1829 1829-1830 1830-1831 4,000 6,000 9.000 30,000 30,000 45,000 £. 340,000 360,000 540,000 £. 12,000 18,000 ' 27,000 19,000 95.000 1,140,000 57,000 The transaction then will stand thus : — Let the consolidated fund be sup- posed to be charged with an outlay of /. 57,000. for that period, which will enable a sinking fund of one per cent to liquidate a loan of {,. 1,140,000; on the other hand, if the annual payments by the Emigrants, to which Your Coni- 550. C a inittee THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE II \ : H mittee will ^.Tcsently refer, be traniifcrrcd to tlie account of tlie coniolidatcd fund for the period of thirty yearw, the country will neither be a gainer nor a loser by thii transaction, as a mere pecuniary transaction, inasmuch as sup* posing an equality of the rate of interest to pervade the period, the annuity received will be equivalent to the annual outlay from the consolidated fund. It may perhaps be observed, that the removal of l<),ooo families would produce little eflfect in remcdyinfi; the redundancy of any superabundant portion of the population in the mother Country ; and Your Committee feel that it would be extremely difficult, if not dangerous, to attempt to lay down, with any pretension to accuracy, the precise number of the (fopulation which it might be necessary to remove for such a purpose. The progress of the measure would furnish the best commentary uppn that point ; but under any circumstance it would be necessary to commence with comparatively small numbers, and to increase them progressively. The principle of increase in this hypothetical proposition is, that each succeeding year should carry out Emigrants in the ratio of 4, 6, and 0, in other words, increasing in the proportion of one half, as compared with the number of the preceding year ; and it appears to Your Committee, from the necessity of food preceding population, that whatever number may be selected for the experiment of the first year, the successive Emigrations must be regulated by some principle of this nature. With respect to the numbers that might be sent in the first year, provided adequate means be taken for preparing for their reception, and provided that the expense of food, in consequence of their numbers, be not increased beyond the rate of the estimate, no necessary limitation would be prescribed. The loan suggested by Your Committee has reference to numbers which it would be clearly practicable to locate. The proposal, as involved in this hypothetical case, stands thus: — the first year, 4,000 families; the second, 6,000; the third, g,ooo; making in the whole 19,000. If, after that period. Parliament were disposed to carry on Emigra- tion in the same ratio, the number of families to be removed in progressive years, would amount as follows:— the fourth year, i3,.'>oo; the fifth year, 20,250; the sixth year, 30,37.') ; the seventh year, 45,56a ; the eighth, 68,343; and if these sums be added together, they will form an aggregate of 1 97,030 families, which, multiplied by 5, will give 985,150 individuals. In this estimate no calculation is made fur the casual, collateral or unlocated Emigration ; although as an auxiliary circumstance, it will operate, together with regulated Emigration, in lessening the redundant population to a con- siderable extent. It appears, then, that for an annual outlay of (,. 57,000, for a limited period of years, nineteen thousand families may be located in the British North American Colonies ; and if the principles laid down by Your Committee be correct in themselves, and duly acted upon in the selection of those 1 9,000 families or ninety-five thousand persons, if those persons are in the strictest sense redundant labourers in the mother Country, their abstraction will create no diminution of production, whereas their presence imposes upon the com- munity a heavy annual expense, the extent of which it is difficult to analyze. This proposition therefore involves the location of 19,000 emigrant settlers, heads of families, consisting of five persons each ; and it will be perceived, that if the following Scale of progressive Annuity and Repayment, calculated in the case of a single head of a family, and spreading itself over a period of only thirty years, be realized, the ;([. 1,140,000. will have been actually repaid; and the receipts of this thirty years annuity will restore the Capital advanced, together with 4 per cent accruing interest upon that capital. — /' . . ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. ai the coniolidkted be a gainer nor naimuch aa lup* iod, the annuity intolidated fund. !s would produce nt portion of the that it would be th any pretention ight be necessary '6 would furnish nstance it would and to increase etical proposition the ratio of 4, 6, alf, as compared Vour Committee, r number may be Igrations must be the numbers that ken for preparing i consequence of ite, no necessary r Committee has to locate. The : — the first year, \g in the whole :anry on Emigra- d in progressive the fifth year, eighth, fi8,343; egate of 197,030 tral or unlocated >perate, together ation to a con- i limited period ; British North r Committee be of those 19,000 in the strictest ction will create upon the corn- cult to analyze, migrant settlers, i perceived, that calculated in the I period of only illy repaid ; and tpital advanced, k AMourr rrc*U«4 tnm On* UmUy IwMtdIn it«t. AMOUNT !• b* rtwlnd frum ih* dlftni.i Mil of E«l|nmi, IbmlH 19.000 r«inUi*i, (•■cilrd In Dm ipM* of 3 YMn. t'U< (ir«c«lln| Ttblc. AUUHKOATC AMOUfff of SuiM 10 bo innuall; maUtd in llquliUilm ' of ibo Huffla uf t. Vtkr. 4^,000 • iBtl jflo/wo • it«g 540.000 1130 I,I4«,UM YEAR Enriiiii In OttolMr rini Ml of Emiiniiii, ■ •«S. SMond Ml of batinau, it*» TliM Ml of iKgo. t i £. ,. d. t. L L L i8g8tui8ooo< and so on. It will also be observed, that under this Table the Settler is not called upon to make any repayment until he has been actually located for the space of three years, reckoning 1828 as the year of his location. He is in 1831 to pay in 55i>- C 3 money •t THIRD REPORT FROM TilK SELECT COMMITTEE monry or produce the value often iihillin(|[i ; and each lucreeding year an ad- ditional ten ihillingi, until the annual payment ninounta to £.y when it is to remain ntationary, and no lonj^er to bo paid in kind, but in money. Your Committee pro|)ose that the Emigrant ihoiiid at nil times have the option of redceniinit tht; whole of hi* annual payment; but that he iihould aUo have four ■pecial opportunities of redeeming portions thereof. If he wero to have at all periods the opportunity to redeem a porti(m, it might produce compleiity in the accounts. He might be allowed to redeem one quarter, one half, or three- fourths of this annuity payment at his own option, at the stated periods, and this permission would operate as a stimulus to his industry. It is superfluous to remark, that in case of his nun-rc(i«!mption, the yno- posed scale of annual payments for thirty years will of course redeem the original £. 60. advanced in his location. ^< 3d. 'JTie Probability of t,'r repayment of the loan ; and the iitducementi which the Coloniet have to facilitute such repayment. For the purpose of explaiDip;{ fully to the House the degree of prohnbility tt success which would attend an Emigmvion upon the principles rerommentLd by Your Committee, and the probability of repayment by each i'lUP' umI Emigrant of his part of the expense incurred, Your Committee be;; . :all I'le particular attention of the House to the following Queries, which w >' (> Xa ten of the principal Colonial Witnesses examined befo-e tbw', lud to WMch those Witnesses returned separate answera in writing. Query? Fir»t : — Taking the whole rangeof the North American Colonies, and reducing them to one common average, du you think it would bo safe to estimate the expense necessary for the satisfactory location of an Emigrant family, of a man, woman and three children, at less than £. 60. per family, such expense to be incuned a> :.<:. their landing at a co- lonial port? AM«.'— Till ']Utry invnlfei the »{t^ip(Atiiin, thst the expanM of psMsga it nrver 10 b« in- curredby <'>oferniiif!iit, but it, in all caiu, to be paid b* thr parties intemted in the removal of a ■upsrabundant population { and that the Emi- grant'i fluniljr liuve bean approved Qfhy an Agent appointed bjr Government tu examine ail pro- poeed Emigrant*. All the expeniai and cir- cumatancei of the pawage to be entirely indo- pendtnt of OoTernnMotawiitance or raeponaibi- lity. No Emigmnt would be entitled to Govern- ment aiMtance in the Colonies who had not rccoived a voucher from n Government Agent ot home, that such Emigrant and family wcro proper subjeoti for reoeivmg Government aseiit- ance. MAKES OF WITNESSES Eiuiined btforo Iha ConaltKe. t. J. Sewell, Biq. Chief Juitit-e of Lowerl Canada / S. TheVenerable Archdeacon Strachan, D.D.I of Upper Canada . . . .j 3. W. B. Felton, Esq. of the Legislativel Council of Lower Canada - - -J 4. P. Robinson, Superintendent, 'and of tbel Executive Council, Upper Canada • | 5. Capt. Marthnll, Superintendent of the Mi- . litary Setti' i' eots, Upper Canada •/ 6. J. Howe, Esq. Deputy PoetmasterGener ii f of Nova Scotia .... ^ 7- A. C. Buchanan, Esq. Merchant, of Lowerl Conada ..... -J 8. B.P. Wagner, Esq. Merchant, of Lowerl Canada ..... -j 9. Mr. Kosr/ell Mount, Deputy Land Sur-\ veyor. Upper Canada . . -J 10. C ' , ^'n Weatherley, half pay, Justice of] the Peace for the District of Bathurst, I ' Jpper Canada - - - • -J ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. Thinks it would not be safe to estimate the expense at less than jC6o. Thinks £.60. necessary. Thinks not less than £.60. necessary. Thinks £.6o. on an average necessary. Thii!'.s,on on average for Upper an' "!,ower C'..ivl!., ''-at £.60. if ' • ' XTj. :'.ankt !i;e estimate a fair one. Thinks in the near districts that £.^0. is suf- ficient. Thinks £.60. sufficient. Does not think it safe (o estimate less than £.60. ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KIN(U)()\I ts lucementi which Mdh-'—l^") ' mninlv concur in the ne- feity of «Mittnncc Iw tho vatuu of £.60. tur- ned to thfl Emigrant iiior« or lew in the tuU ling proportiuni ? jragt Etimalt ffihe »/«•«»« 9/ .^/Wtif • Family, eontUl- mg ^ »»* M»n, oat tVomnit, »niL three ( Wi/r«M, in M« fritiih Nurtk Amtrican t*nn>timH\ lUtHnguUkinif the aritui ilim* qfExprUitHiv. ^•MM of convejrMC* from thii |>ort <• for 1 mm, I woman and 3 childran, at 1 lb. of Auur imd I lb. of pork for Mch adult, omI lialf 'hut quantity fur taeh child, making 3| rnti< < Mr diam, pork baing M £.4 p«r bairti nud llour at £. 1. s<. par barrel ■ight of proviaiona lo place of Mttlament ui« for each family • - • • • ImplMMnla, Aic. fBlankaU -•-<.- 14 - Kaltla - 5 10 Fryiag-paa - . . - i 3 iHbaa 4 fl I 81 do - • B i W«dg« - » 4 Auger •...--ag PIcE-axe . - - . - t - I Axee I - - ' "roportion of Grindttone, Whipaawand croaa-cul Saw 14 - jeight and chargea op Idillo 15 per cent • - 10 a 40 10 I 10 10 • - • J .V flMrling if. 3 «8 WJ,T. £.468 4 >o illcinea ud medical attendance - - • 1 - com - - - -.--lO atoea, 5 buah. at a «. 6 if. • - It 6 - 14 - DportlonoftheexpenieofbuildingforthedepAt 1 - {tto for clerki, iaiuera, and aurveyort to ahow the •u 15 tf.6o. aterling ia equal to - £.6613 4 \a<«i— Soii" thing In the nature of ihii H kun iiuon hit landing ; and upon liii prvMintiiig a voucher to the F.migra. tlon Agvnl at the rnlonial port, fhuwing that hi hadlntn approred a* an Eniigfani, and U|ion hi* axprutaina hi* wiih lo receive tbi* tori ul'loan in kind. In iiue of ihi* 'A-cur- ring, liu would be callad upon to aign the (ecuritv 'ti^fru^d to Ul the n I query, and then convryt'il to hi* Wallop «t ihu Ciovemmenl expciiM). Ai two rlulilren wk i iHiniilu-red equiii to Ihe eip«n*i> of an adult, il the fliniiN i-^iniMited of • widower and live children, or m itnv oUier varwtt of pro- portion, reuulat<>d brthi* priiui|il< (I (nt. \««ald not ikc i).(Jo. be cilually iivn'Marv Kvcrv tmt iMfe to estimate the eitimate leu than NAMES or WITNESSES iMiaincd btfer* Ih* Comalltw, I J. SeweU, Esq. . . • - B. The Ven. Archdeacon Strachan, D. D. 3. W.B.Felton, Eiq. ... 4. P. Robinson, Esq. • • • 5. Capt. Marshall .... 6. J. Howe, Esq 7. A. C. Bochanan, Esq. ... t. B. P. Wagner, Esq. • • . ' g. Mr. Roawell Mount • • - 10. Capt. Weatherley ABSTRACT OF ANSWlLJIS. Does not doubt the correctness ot'the Estimate> . . . . D* . . . , D« V- . . . . D* . . . - D* ... . . . D» Thinks that £.48. 101. sufficient in the near Districts. Thinks £.Co. sufficient, expended as stated. Concurs with the Estimate. Mainly concurs with the Estimate. C4 24 THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE QVEUY ? . • ■ ■- - JTiirdly : — Do you consider that any sort of practical difficulty will exist in talcing an unexpensive and simple secu- rity from the Emigrant, both personal as well as a lien upon his land, for the payment of ;^. 4. per annum interest, being at the rate of 5 per cent upon the sum of /[. 80. or in other words upon the sum of j£. 6f>. improved by deferred interest for seven years to the sum of £. 80, interest being only calculated in that instance at £. 4. per cent ? Note : — Every paint most be taken to explain to the Emigrant, that the acceptance or the loan is to be entirely voluntary on hi* part, pre- cisely the same as if any individual in hit owa country had proposed, from motives of charity, to advance liim a loan of equal amount, upon the same principle of repayment. 1^ ■ . ."^ ;; „■* I ;' ^ lif f, r ," NAMES OF Wn-NESSES ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. Examined before the CommiUee, "M". 1. J. Sewell, Esq. Does not think that any difficulty will exist, provided legislative provisions be made for Lower Canwla. • %, The Ven. Archdeacon Strachan, D. D. - Thinks there will be no difficulty on proper explanations being given to the Emigrant. 3. W. B. Felton, Esq. .... Same opinion as Chief Justice Sewell. 4. P. Robinson, Esq. .... Thinks there will be no difficulty, if the deed be withheld till half tlie money be paid. 5, Capt. Marshall Thinks there will be no difficulty. 6. J. Howe, Esq. ..... . . D" 7. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. - . - - Recommends two securities to be required. and thinks there will be no difficulty. 8. B. P Wagner, Esq. .... Thinks there will be no difficulty. g. Mr. Roswell Mount .... - D" 10. Capt. Weatherley ■ • • "■ %:■ , Note : — The mode of estimating the value of the produce of the Settler's farm in money, would be by a simple estimate of market price, made under prescribed regulations in the Co- lonies, and assessing produce with reference to such value. Query? Fourthly : — Do you consider that the Emigrant settler, if not called upon to pay any interest for the space of seven years, will have any difficulty whatever in affording to pay ,£.4. per annum, at the expiration of that period, in money or money's worth, that is, in grain and pork of a merchantable quality, estimated upon a given principle of arbitration, such Emigrant having always a power at his own option of paying off the principal of £. 80. in instalments of £. 20. each, in money, until the whole of the original loan be discharged i NAMES OF WITNESSES Eiamiiied before the Camniittee. 1 . J. Sewell, Esq. .... a. The Ven. Archdeacon Strachan, D.D. 3. W. B. Felton, Esq. 4. P. Robinson, Esq. 5. Capt. Marshall G. J. Howe, Esq. 7. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. 8. B. P. Wagner, Esq. 9. Mr. Koswell Mount 10. Cupt. Weatherley - ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. Thinks the Emigrant will be able to pay. Has no doubt of the ability to pay interest, and recommends instalments of £. 5. to be re- ceived for the payment of the principal. Thinks there will be no difficulty. - - ■ D. • ; D* D* D" " Recommends £. 5, instalments to be received in payment of principal, and thinks there will be no difficulty. Thinks there will be nu difficulty. \» confident there will bu nu difficulty. ..^v,i'=,v«:;.. li'i'i ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 35 QUERT? Fifthly: Are you of opinion that if this proposition be adequately explained to the Pauper Emigrant, and if he be made conclusively to understand that it is not a rent for his land, but a payment of interest upon a loan of money lent to him at hit own requett, which loon has been advanced to him in kind and not in money, that he would be in any de- gree disposed to resist the payment of this interest, it being explained to him that at any time he has the power of exonerating himself from such payment, by the payment of £. 80 ? Note; — This quettion might not appetMBwr itnctf, nai ry to be put to a Polonial witncti , to any other witneu ; but it has reference to the difinclinatioa naturally felt to the payment of rent, In countriet under the ciroumatancea of our North American Colonies, which contain an indefinite extent of unoccupied land of a ftrtile quality. ■ .1. ■ ^'• ■■>»■ NAMES OF WITNESSES Enmfaied befoie the CommitteCi ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. I. .T. Sewell, Esq. 9. The Ven. Archdeacon Strachan, D.D. 3. W. B. Felton, Eiq. 4. P. Bobini on, Eaq. . . - - 5. Capt. Maniull • . • . 6. J. Hcwe, Esq. • - - - 7. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. • • • 8. B. P. Wagner, Esq. 9. Mr. Rosirell Mount ... 10. Capt. Weatherley - - - - Thinks there will be no disposition in the Emigrant to resist the payment. D° D" D" . - . D» D« D» D» D» D" Query ? Sixthly : — In case of the death of the Emigrant at any period during the seven years or after it, do you think there would be any doubt as to the security of the improved land being an adequate value for the loan advanced upon ? Note .'—For example, supposing the head of a family to die, and the wife and childrea to abandon the lot ; would an incoming tenant be able and willing to pay the interest at the end of the seven years, he of course availing himself of the improvements that had token plaea upon that particular lot. NAMES OF WITNESSES Eitmined before the Coniraitlee. ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. 1. J. Sewell, Esq 3. The Ven. Archdeacon Strachan, D.D. 3. W. B. Felton, Esq. 4. P. Bobinson, Esq. 5. Capt. Marshall 6. J. Howe, Esq. ' 7- A. C. Buchanan, ISsq. 8. B. P. Wagner, Esq. g. Mr. Roswell Mount 10. Capt. Vir«atherley 550. Has no doubt, when the value of the im- provements amount to the sum lent. Thinks the improvements will be sufficient security. D» D* D» D Doubts the value of the security until the end of 4 years, when it will be good and sufficient. Thinks the land sufficient security. D» D» a6 THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT JOMMITTEE Query? Seventhly: — Are you of opinion that any sort of practical difficulty will bo found in the levy of this interest, sup- posing such levy to be made under the directions of the Governor ? I' \ NAMES 01' WITNESSES Eianiiiied before the Comniittee. 1. J. Sewell, Esq. . . . - 3. The Yen. Archdeacon Strachan, D.D. 3. W.B.Felton .... 4. P. Ro')in8on, Esq. ... 5. Capt. Marshall .... 6. J. Howe, Esq. .... 7. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. ... 8. B. P. Wagner, Esq. Q. Mr. Roswell Mount 10. Capt. Weatherley ... ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. When aided by legislative provisiont, there will be no difficulty. Thinks there will be no difficulty. ' ''• '"' D» Is not informed on this subject. Thinks there will be no difficulty. .i v^' X •,. -;l I' QUEUY? ' . Eighthly:— What would be the average expense per cent, upon the collection of the interest? ,r^.'.'.:„ NAMES OF WITNESSES . Examined before the Committee. ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. 1. J. Sewell, Esq. . • • . Thinks not less than 6 per cent. 3. Tlie Yen. Archdeacon Strachan, D.D. - Perhaps 5 per cent, if collected by the local, authorities. 3- W.B. Felton, Esq. - 1 5 per cent, but about 5 per cent if collected by local authorities. ' ' 4- P. Robinson, Esq. - 5 per cent. ' ■ " 5- Capt. Marshall - 5 per cent, if collected in taoney. 6. J. Howe, Esq. ... - 5 per cent. .{.-^t-* 7- A. C. Buchanan, Esq. - - From 5 to 7 1 per cent if in money, and from 10 to 15 per cent if in produce. 8. B. P. Wagner, Esq. - 2 } per cent in money, and from 5 to 10 per cent in produce. - , . fl- Mr. Roswell Mount - Not informed. .', ) 10. Capi, WeathcrUiy '■ " 3 1 per cent in money, 10 per cent if paid in kind, SE OK EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. ERS. rovUioiM, there «A''> s. ■ « .: !. . . i •?* .} tL.-i'. .iJl 0. •4^ y- ■ ., ■-» » .9 ■-■:» -J .!«*■■ ■/■ T.:,^*:- •f> ..• .* ■■"», ERS. ted by the local cnt if collected y. : . .! in money, ond iduce. I from 5 to le per cent if paid 27 Query ? Ninthly : — Are you of opinion that there would be any sort of indisposition on the part of the colonial legislatures to give every facility to the levy of this interest, in consideration of the extreme advantages to the colony which must arise from the introduction of a regu- lated system of Emigration, consisting of properly selected Emigrants at a proper period of life, who have lefk their own country under the circumstance of there being no demand for their labour ? Soft:— The Colonies would benefit exclusivelif firon all the productioni which might be the re- mit of Emigration, with ti^e exception of tlie interest* um repayments, which must neces- sarily b^ a veru tmall part of the actual wealth created, aa is shown bv the concurrent testimony of all the Colonial Witnesses. « ,.,-.' .1. J , *• f NAMES OF WITNESSES Examiited before the Cummitlee. ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. 1. J. Sewell, Esq. • - m . Thinks there will be no difficulty. 3. The Ven. Archdeacon Strachan, D.D. - - - D" 3. W. B. Felton, Esq. m " - D» .» ''.'.->*: I 4. P. Robinson, Esq. - - - D» •T.. ■ 1 5. Capt. Marshall • - - - D* ;.; • C. J. Howe, Esq. 7. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. * • - D* 8. B. P. Wagner, Esq. - - - D* . g. Mr. Roswell Mount m m * a - D» » ■ 10. Capt. Weatherley - '• • ' 1 '• ~'i !)• ;- •■ ' , K. . . t.' [»,• -iwo:- Query ? Tenthly: — Do you conceive, in point of fact, that this proposal of advancing capital to the Emigrants, in other words to the Colony, differs from any specu- lation which might be made, of advancing capital in any colonial enterprize, whe- ther on loan or in mines, for which the capitalist would naturally require a re- munerating interest ? Note: — If an individual, or a company 10 England advanced £. 100,000. on a Mine, or on a Canal, they would expect to receive inferett upon their capital ; but could the Colonists complain of a remittance to England of that interest ? A.Jn^V- NAMES OF WITNESSES Emiii!i«h1 before the Coniraittee. 1. J. Siwell, Esq. .... 3. The Ven. Archdeacon Strachan, D.D. 3. W. B. Felton, Esq. 4, P. Robinson, Esq. . • • • 5- Capt. Marshall .... 6. J. Howe, Esq. .... 7' A. C. Buchanan, Esq. . . • 8. B. P. Wagner, Esq. - • g. Mr. Roswell Mount ... 10. Capt. Weatherley .... ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. f»lif',' !■ Thinks there is no dilTerence. D' . D" '■*: '' '■' . . - D* ■ . . . D- . D" ■ - - »*.;■: .:"'■: D' ,.- . .,.";,,' 1) J a8 THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE I (' Query ? i;/«»«l/A/v .-—Whether in the in- JV^o«« .-The propMition herein made u, toad- ,.,..,, , ^L •_ wwce 00/. free of interest for aeren year*, and Stance of individuals advancing their then to charge interest at the rate of 6/. 13*. 4* capital, a higher rate of interest would per cent, that ii 6^ per cent upon the original r u » J A .„u<.»l.o. ...<.)i "*•'•! •»"' aa it II intended that the mother not be expected ; and wHether sucn countnr should sustain no ultimate Iota upon interest would not be expected to com- mence at a much earlier period than after the lapse of seven years? these loans, the Emigrant is called upon to repav a capital lum of ioL instead of 6«/., and is called upon to pay 4/. per annum, at the end of seven years, upon that capital of 80/., bebg at the rate of 5 /. per cent upon it. The case, then, as between the lender and the Emigrant, supposing it to be an individual case, stands limply thus:— I lend yon 60/. free of interest, for seven yean, but aa the colonial rate of interest is six per cent, I should be justified in calling upon you to pay 3/. lai. for this sum at the expiration of the first year ; but as I wish you to employ your meant exclusively in improving your land, I wiU remit you all interest for seven years, and then I will charge you with an interest of 4 /. per annuaa instead of the sum of 3/. ia«.; and at any time, if you choose to relieve yourself from this annual payment of 4/. or parts of it, you may diminish it to the extent of 1 /. by every 30 (. that you pay by instalments in liquidation of the capital debt of 80/., that IS, of 60/. improved to the value of Be/, in consequence of seven years deferred interest. NAMES OF WITNESSES . J ■ ■ . • ■ Eiamiiwd before (he Committee. ABSTRACT OP ANSWERS. 1. J. Sewell, Esq. - . Thinks individuals would require an imme- diate return, but they cannot take more than 6 per cent, the legal interest. 3. The Yen. Archdeacon Strachan, D. D. - Individuals would take compound interest. 3. W.B.Felton, Esq. . Individuals would require larger profit. 4. P. Robinson, Esq. . - Ditto. 5. Capt. Marshall - . - Ditto. „. 6. J. Howe, Esq. . - Ditto. . , : 7. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. . - • - - D!""- y .- ,,(:}■> 8. B.P.Wagner, Esq. . - Ditto. g. Mr. Roswell Mount .... - Ditto. V • : v.-.. ' la CaptWeatherley - .... - Ditto*. It will be seen upon reference to all the above Answers, that one opinion pre* vails among all the Witnesses respecting the ability of the Settler to pay, if not in money at least in produce, the sum advanced upon the system above laid down. Your Committee are however aware that difficulties have practically been experienced, both in Canada and the United States, in obtaining the pay- ment of the proceeds of land ; and although they would draw, as they are war- ranted to do, from the concurrence of all the witnesses, a wide distinction between the payment of rent for land, and the liquidation of a debt actually incurred and charged with legal interest, Your Committee are so anxious to avoid the imputation of acting hastily upon visionary and theoretical schemes, that they hesitate to express to the House that full conviction of eventual re- payment which nevertheless the body of the evidence would seem to warrant. At the same time they would not feel themselves justified in recommending to the House a national outlay of this nature without a prospect of direct return; and while they feel that there is that degree of probability which allows them * The Answers of Mr. Hayes (a merchant in Upper Canada) to all of these Queries, will be found in the Appendix. They were received too late to be abstracted. Mr. Hayes being in Ireland ; but he mainly concurs in the Answers given by the other WitnesBes^. and strictly so on the subject of repayment by the Emigrant. * -^•'■^ TEE tin made ii, to ad- Msren rean, and e of 6/. 13«. 4A pon the original Uiat the mother imate Iom upon called upon to teadof 6el., and mum, at the end «1 of 80 1., tieiog lit. le lender and the le, standi limply tan, but aa th« 1 be juatifiad In the expiration of leoniexclutively i for Mren yean, '4/. per annum if you chooie to I. or parti of it, ry 30 7. that you ebt of 80/., that iquence of seven VERS. iquire an imme- talce more than ind interest. er profit. opinion pre* } pay, if not above laid 5 practically ing the pay- »ey are war- distinction ebt actually anxious to :al schemes, eventual re- to warrant, mending to !t of direct hich allows them ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 29 them to recommend an experiment for three years, the experience of the last of those years will afford a strong presumption how far it may be safe or advisable to continue and extend the system, or rest satisfied with the advantage, be it what it may, of the removal of the number proposed to be taken within three years, without incurring any further national outlay. Your Committee are satisfied that the repayment in kind will at once afford a stimulus to the industry of the Settler, and facilitate his power of repayment The advantage of the principle of annuity payment, as proposed in the last section, over the more apparency simple principle of an absence of all payment for seven years, and the commencement at that period of an annual payment of £.4. per annum, redeemable at any time upon the payment of a capital of j£.8o. appears to Your •Committee to consist in the following points : — 1st, That it will call from the Settler a payment at the period of the termination of the third year of his location. 2dly, That if such payment should be actually made in the third and fourth years, the strongest possible security will be afforded of the continuation of this annual payment, progressively increasing to the sum of £. ,^. and the consequent realization of the plan of entire repayment ; for this ratio of progressive increase will be in proportion to, but below the increased capacity of the Settler to pay, and he will not find any sudden inconvenience in the mere circumstance of payment. 3dly, As the series of years of the annuity diminishes, the Settler will be called upon for a diminishing amount of redemp- tion-fund. 4thly, No perpetual debt will be contracted between the Colonies and the mother Country, for the £.4. referred to would have left a debt of £. 80. as involved in the Queries and Answers to the colonial witnesses, notwithstand- ing any number of payments of the annual £.4. ; whereas if the repayment be made on the principle suggested, the last year's payment of the annuity will cancel the whole debt ; in other words, if the payment should be realized, and the money paid into a fund to accumulate, that fund, at the end of the thirty years, supposing the price of stocks to remain the same, would purchase out the remaining part of the long annuity ; therefore the whole transaction would virtually terminate at that period : but if the more probable result happens and the Emigrant should redeem his annuity, this transaction will be accom- plished at a probably earlier period. - It will be perceived, from an examination of the Evidence in detail, that no doubt is expressed by the witnesses, of the capacity of the Emigrant to repay, according to the scale recommended, commencing at the rate of io«. per annum in the third year, and progressively increasing to thp extent of ;£. 5. per annum. Your Committee beg most distinctly to be understood, that they rest their case entirely upon the presumed co-operation and assistance of the Colonial Legislatures. Unless this can be obtained, they feel that repayment would be impracticable ; if it be obtained, they entertain confident hopes that it may be reduced to a regular and effective system ; and though they could not go so far as to require a guarantee upon the part of the Colonial Legislatures, they should expect them to make such provisions as should tend to enforce and secure the validity of the engagements made. Nor, upon a very mature examination of the subject, can Your Committee be induced to conceive that the local Legislatures can have any disinclination to enter into such arrangements. The intelligent inhabitants of those colonies cannot fail to be aware, that when those Emigrants repay the loan, which is proposed to be lent to each head of a family, they will only repay a very small part of the wealth which they possess, and which has been created by their emigration. They will be aware also, that the projected Emigration will consist exclusively of able-bodied healthy persons, selected 550 ' . D3 upon so THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE upon system in the mother Country, and introduced upon system into the Colony, and that it is not to be a casual, desultory and unprovided Emigration. Under mich circumstanceR, Your Committee cannot doubt the disposition of the local Legislatures of the Colonies to encourage the measure, and to facilitate the process of repayment, an opinion which is expressed unanimously by the colonial witnesses examined before Your Committee. In fact, Your" Committee are at a loss to conceive what could be more advan- tageous to the interests of the Colonies, than an accession of Population under such terms. Their wealth and power will be increased infinitely more by such an accession, coupled with a principle of repayment practically carried into effect, than it would be supposing that no Emigration of that character, that is of selected Emigrants, were to take place in consequence of such repayment being d?ei.iea impracticable. The Colonies will have the advantage of being able to supply, by colonial laws, any measures of police, or of any other nature, which may assist in the satisfactory location of Emigrants thus proposed to be introduced. In case of the sum of £. 1,140,000, it can only be considered in the light of a loan made to the Emigrants, to be applied in the most advanta- geous manner for the benefit of the Colony. If English capitalists were prepared to employ a sum of equal amount in some speculation in the Colonies, which they anticipated would be productive, in the formation of a canal, the working of a mine, or the establishment of a fishery, or in any other mode, and if those English capitalists expected to derive ten per cent for this speculation, which annual profit was to be remitted to England, is it possible to suppose that the Colonies would object to such a remittance — that they would consider them- selves aggrieved by it — that they would not feel themselves benefited by that portion of the real returns of this enterprise, which would be created and returned within the Colony over and above the interest remitted to the parties in England ? Your Committee think that it is only necessary to have these views fully and clearly understood, and the evidence examined which has been taken, in order to induce the Colonies to accept with gratitude an arrangement of this nature. Nor do Your Committee found their opinion upon mere speculative data. They would specially refer to the letter addressed to Earl Bathurst by the Magistrates and others resident in the district of Newcastle, in the province of Upper Canada, which is to be found in the Evidence between the questions 3701 and 3702, in which they explain their view of the advantages to be derived from/ a regulated system of colonization. In the same place will also be found the expressions of gratitude on the part of the Irish Emigrants of 1825, for the change effected in their situation. 3d. — Tlie success of former Emigrations, as bearing upon the probability qf repayment. In the Appendix to the Report of the Committee of 1826, will be found, among other papers relating to the Emigration of 1823, a return made by Mr. Peter Robinson (under whose superintendence that Emigration was con- ducted) relative to the settlers located by him, showing the extent of acres cleared, the quantity of produce raised by each head of a family, and the number of cattle and hogs in the possession of each in the month of March 1826. From an analysis which has been made of that return, it appears that the property in the possession of the 120 heads of families int-luded in the return in March 1826, amounted in value to ^.7,662. 6s. 6d. sterling, and that at the expiration of seven years from the time of their location, their capital might be expected to amount to more than ;^. 30,000. sterling. It is necessary ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 31 ! more advaii- ulation under more by such carried into ractcr, that is :h repayment tage of being other nature, roposed to be considered in most advanta- were prepared es, which they he working of and if those jlation, which ppose that the onsider them- lefited by that ! created and to the parties iews fully and iken, in order this nature, data. They Magistrates ice of Upper ons 3701 and derived from,. )e found the 825, for the orobabilUy qf ill be found, urn made by tion was con- tent of acres nily, and the th of March appears that luded in the ing, and that their capital is necessary to to observe, that in this first experiment many of the Emigrants were single men. Several of these engaged themselves as labourers, either in tlie Canadas, or in the United States, and those who proceeded to the settlement and continued in their location, appear from *he return to have made much less progress in the clearing and cultivation of their land, than those settlers who had families. The House will observe, however, that even under these circumstances the estimated value of the property in possession of these 1 20 heads of families, at the end of the second year of their location, amounted to more than one half of the expense incurred in the transport and location of .568 individuals, at the rate of ^. 22. K?. 6rf. each. ^^ The Emigration of 1825 consisted of 2,024 persons, among whom were 415 heads of families, able-bodied, and capable of labour. They, as well as the Emigrants of 1 823, were taken from a part of Ireland in which there was no demand whatever for their labour. It could never be pretended for a moment, that less production has tnken place in that part of Ireland in con- sequence of their removal ; but it is equally evident, that although they added nothing to the production, the expense of their subsistence, and that of their families, must have fallen upon some fund or other. Of those 41 .5 families, three families were very often to be found in one cabin. They were only very par- tially and occasionally employed as labourers ; the greater part of them had no other means of subsistence than what was derived from casual charity, or from more suspicious sources ; and their presence in Ireland could in no sense be considered as increasing the power and prosperity of the country. These 2,024 persons were removed in the year 1825 to Canada, and the expense of their removal amounted to jC.43,145, including their location and sustenance up to the period at which their first crops enabled them to provide for themselves. A very rigid estimate has been made of the value of the produce of their first year's labour, which is to be found in the Appendix to the Evidence. Mr. Robinson, the superintendent, pledged himself to the Committee as to the correctness of that calculation, which can be referred to in detail, and it amounts to (,. 1 1,272. 8«. This calculation is made upon the current price of articles in the colony. It is not intended to be implied that they had a pro- duce to dispose of to the amount of £. 11,272. 8«. but that the production which they had created amounted to that sum. Against this creation of value in the Colony is to be set the expenditure of the English Government, amount- to ^f. 43,145. It appears, therefore, that the production of the first year has created a value equivalent to nearly one-fourth of that sum. /In the estimate, the produce must be considered as applied to the support of those families for the next year, and, therefore, not being of exchangeable value in their especial case ; but it is calculated that that produce, together with the acci< dental resources of labour, will furnish an ample fund for their maintenance until another year. The 415 heads of families were located upon 41,500 acres. At the time that the Emigrants were placed upon this land, these 41,500 acres were utterly unproductive, yielding no annual value. The Government expends ^.43,145. in advancing capital upon this unproductive land. An estimate is furnished of the first year's production, amounting to ^.11,272, including not only the value of the land cleared, as estimated at the current price of the produce, but also the produce upon which the Emi- grant family is to live for the year, after the cessation of the Government assist- ance. The ;£. 43,145. improved at compound interest for seven years, wil! amount to a capital sum of ^C- 60,709. The Government, therefore, at the end of seven years will be in the situation of having advanced a capital to the amount of £.60,709. for which it has received no return other than that advantage, be it more or less, which has been derived from the abstraction of 550. D 4 an j$ THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE rl an unnecessary body of labourers from the mother Country. If the profit of this speculation be analysed, what wi\\ be the value of the land on which this capital has been expended, at the end of seven years? A calculation, founded upon the ordinary progress of the Colonies, gives the following result, — that at ' the end of seven years those 415 heads of families, occupying 41,500 acres of land, will have cleared, fenced, and brought into cultivation 8,300 acres, leaving 33,aoo uncultivated. It is a common practice in Canada to let cleared land to a small capitalist, who, in consideration of occupying the laud so cleared, pays one-third of the yearly produce to the proprietor. The average yearly produce of an acre of cleared land ir. wheat amounts to eighteen bushels ; by the terms of the proposition, the proprietor receives six bushels of wheat ; six bushels of wheat at 2*. 6d. per bushel, which is the ordinary price, amounts to 15 s. Supposing the land to be of equal quality, whether it is actually culti- vated with wheat, or laid down in grass, the same ratio of profit accrues to the proprietor. This naturally justifies the estimate, that the annual value of an acre of cleared land amounts to 15«. Applying this ratio to the case of the Emigrant Setders of 1 825, at the end of seven years they will have 8,300 acres of cleared land, the estimated annual profit of which amounts to ;^. 6,225; but the interest of the money advanced by Government amounts to £-3,035. gs. consequently, after paying interest upon the money advanced by Government, they have a residue of £. 3,189. The current annual profit of this land specu- lation, at the end of seven years, being £. 6,225 i i^ ^^^^ be divided by 415, (the mmber of individual cases,) it will be seen how each head of a family stands in relation to this general result. The case then, individually, will stand thus : A pauper in the south of Ireland, for whose labour no demand existed, and consequently whose presence in Ireland added nothing to the general wealth of the country, but on the contrary, whose subsistence was a deduction from that wealth, was removed to a district in Upper Canada ; he received from the Government, for himself, his wife and three children, the sum of £. 100. sterling in kind and not in money. This £. 100. sterling has enabled him to cultivate a proportion of 100 acres of land; and at the end of seven years he will be in possession of a surplus income of ;£.15. per annum.- <,. ■c Your Committee beg to call the attention of the House to the fact, that this calculation is framed upon an estimate of £. 1 00. per family, whereas the esti- mate which they now present with confidence to the House, is only an estimate of £. 60. per family. If, therefore, it be demonstrable that the Emigrant could pay interest upon, and repay the principal of £. 100 — d fortiori, it must be more practicable in the case of a diminished sum, where there is no reason to appre- hend that the amount of annual produce will be less ; but, on the contrary; if Emigration be conducted on an extended scale, the more dense the population in the new settled district, the greater the probability of the success of the Emi- grant. Your Committee beg to remind the House, that in placing a family of five persons upon 100 or 50 acres of land, the ratio of the population will be one person for every 20 or 10 acres ; whereas in parts of Ireland, from whence such an emigrant population might be taken, the ratio may be estimated at 20 persons for every 10 acres, but certainly not less than one person per acre. Your Committee cani^ot conclude their observations on this point of inquiry without expressing their sense of the zeal, ability, and discretion with which Mr. Peter Robinson effected the location of the two bodies of Emigrants in 1823 and 1825, under circumstances (however inevitable) of want of previous preparation, which would be avoided in future instances, were Emigration to form part of a national measure. , ...,,,; 'fl 'Is* J.-? .. ,•.••-,,. ■ :M ■'•y.ii'tf': tl [TEE f the profit of on which this ition, founded esult, — that at • ,1,500 acre* of I acres, leaving :;t cleared land md so cleared, average yearly in bushels' ; by of wheat; six ce, amounts to actually culti- accrues to the ual value of an le case of the ve 8,300 acres i £.6,225; but jC- 3,035- 9*- y Government, lis land specu- ivided by 415, id of a family ividually, will ur no demand lothing to the tsistence was a er Canada ; he ildren, the sum ng has enabled end of seven nnum. -i'- I • T ■ e fact, that this ereas the esti- aly an estimate Imigrant could t must be more lason to appre- he contrary; if the population !8S of the Emi- ng a family of ilation will be , from whence stimated at 20 1 per acre. }int of inquiry )n with which Emigrants in ,nt of previous Emigration to ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 33 VI.— BOARD OF EMIGRATION. WITH respect to the formation of a Board of Emigration in London, having agents in Ireland, Great Britain, and the Colonics, acting under its directions, Your Committee are prepared, under any circumstances, to express their entire conviction of the expediency of forming such a Board, altb^'ifrh its duties may be limited or extended, according to the decision that m iltimately be taken on the subject of Emigration. Upon this subject. Your Committee would refer the House, and His Majesty's Government, to a letter inserted after question 4277 in the Evidence, and ad- dressed by Mr. Buchanan to the Chairman of the Committee. This letter fur- nishes much valuable information, as well as important practical suggestions. Your Committee are decidedly of opinion that it would be impossible to accomplish that uniformity of operation which would be so necessary in a system of Emigration on an extended scale, unless by the establishment of agents duly qualified, and whose duty it would be to act under the orders of the Emigration Board, and the local Governments. Your Committee also would propose that such Emigration Board should be placed under the direct control of an executive department of the State, which would be responsible for the exercise of the important functions which such a Board wduld be called upon to discharge. Your Committee are of opinion that agents, duly authorized under an Emi- gration Board established in this country, should inspect, and accept or reject, under strict rules and impartial regulations, to which they should be subjected, and respecting which appeal should be allowed to the Emigration Board, all Emigrant families who may be candidates for Emigration, and for whose removal to the Colonies means may be forthcoming from general or private contributions. They also propose, that for every ticket which should qualify an Emigrant family for Government assistance, when landed in a Colonial port, the sum of j£. 1. should be paid, which sum should be upplied in liquidation of any expenses at home, which might be incurred by the appointment of an Emi- gration Board, and of inferior agents. i . ... ^, . ■ , .. 1 i . ' No person above the age of fifty years should be accepted as a Government Emigrant, except under very special circumstances. Each head of a family should be in a sound state of health, of good character, desirous of emigrating, and in want of that effective demand for his labour by which he can obtain the means of independent subsistence. Above all, he should be a person, in con- sequence of whose removal no diminution of production would take place, although by such removal the expense of his maintenance would be saved to the community. The proportion of a man, woman, and three children, must be maintained, in order to give faciliticb for the regulation of the expense ; but if a man, his wife, and six children, were accepted as Emigrants, a man and woman without any child might also be accepted, as preserving the proportion, and so on. Every head of a family arriving in the Colony, should have a choice as to whether he would accept the accommodation offered to him in the way of a loan in kind. He should be distinctly informed, upon his arrival in the Colony, that if a demand should exist for his labour among the population there, and if he preferred engaging himself as a labourer to being located as a colonist, he should have every facility of placing himself in that capacity, so that no expense on the part of the public should be incurred on his account, or that of his family after their 5.5"- E arrival, 34 THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMiriEE arrivol, iiur in tliut ca.v any terms of rcpayrr.ciil be cipcctcd from him, as no Qccuinmodntion in kind had hccii ittlbrded. On the uther hund, audi Bmi|^rant.s a.H are not able to find employment uh labourers, or who may prefer being located upon Government lands upon the terms involved in the queries, would have the nature of the enga^^ement into which they entered distinctly pointed out to them. They would be furnished with a printed statement, explaining each particular item of the expense incurred on their account, coupled with any other arrangements which may be suggested in tb« Colonies, for the more effectual furtherance of this purpose. ; ' ''»V' ''*' •* -^t -^ • '4«.Ji f The classes of Emigrants which V*our Committee contemplate as those which should have a prior claim to Government assistance are, — 1st, Jrish tenant* who have been ejected from small farms under the operation of clearing the property, which is now taking place as part of the national system in Ireland ; 2dly, Those tenants who are upon the point of being ejected, but whose ejectment has not actually taken place; jdly, A class which perhaps can hardly be included under the name of tenant, the cottiers, who occupy a cabin with an extremely small pordon of land, and who, unless they can obtain employment, have no means of paying their rent ; and, 4thly, Cases in England and Scotland, which must be made matter of special leference to whatever authorities may direct the course of Emigration. ,.,,r.; • «. In the special case of ejected tenants from Irish properties, where the Emigration'agent had distinctly approved of parties ta Eciiigrants with respect to their general qualifications, an arrangement might be made involving no great complexity of detail, under which, in the case ot Kuch parties possessing a small sum of money, they might be allowed to purchase Government assist- ance at the rate laid down in the Schedule, and only make themselves debtors for such excess of assistance as might be afforded to them beyond the extent of their own fund to procure. The located Emigrants in each district should be placed as near together as circumstances will permit. They should be pkced, in all possible instances, on the immediate confines of the settled country, with reference to the facilities of communication by land as well as by water, and consequently, of markets. ,^^ .^ t'.l».3*-i'(.j»;?-< The House will perceive tha^. Your Committee proposes to liiait the local contributions for Emigration, to the removal of the Emigrant to the sea coast, and to the expense of the passage to the colonies. When arrived there, if, as already explained, there be no demand for his labour, it is proposed that a loan should be offered to him, upon the principles laid down in this Report. After a very mature consideration of the whole subject, Your Committee have com6 to the decided conclusion, that a more complicated system, involving any Other circumstances of contribution, would have tended to check the measure, and to previent the accomplishment of a great national advantage. In England, undoubtedly, the economy to the parishes ~vould be such as to have induced them to contribute, in many instances, the whole expense ; but in that case they would have expected to have the same individual lien upon the property of the Emigrant in the colony, which is contemplated on the part of the Govern- ment in every individual case; and, secondly, if accommodation had been afforded to the Emigration from Ireland and Scotland upon the terms of the expense of passage, an injustice would have been felt in throwing on an English parish the additional expense of tlie location of the Emigrant in the colony. • ifi.: ■ i'< » ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITEI> K - oOM 35 VII. — ^The (listinclioii between Emigrat' m and i <- Ionization, aud a regulated and an ..uregulai d . . Emigration. ■' T* ^■rl#v'. «' I.,' I YOUR Committee wiih also to impress upon the House, that they consider it of primary importance to distinguish most accurately between Colonization and Emif^tion ; that is, between the planting of Colonists in a soil prepared to receive them, aided by a small portim of capital, to enable them immediatelj to take root and flourish, and the mere pouring of an indefinite quantity of labourers, as Emigrants without capital, into a country where there is a very small proportion of capital previously existing to employ them, and where, although after much misery and privation they may finally succeed, they are nevertheless subject to chances of failure and vicissitudes not experienced by the former class of persons. For it is admitted by all persons who have investigated these subjects, that, in the order of nature, food must precede population. Colonization, that is, an Emigration where the labourers arc aided by capital, provides that food. The power of a fertile virgin soil, combined with labour, is sufficient to produce infinitely more food than is consumed by the parties cultivating it. Consequently each succeeding Emigration is fed by the surplus food produced from the earth by prececUug £uiignint«. In an unrestricted and disproportioned Emigration of labourers, no suck provision being made, population, contrary to the order of nature, would precede food. v A high price of labour in any country may show that there is a real demand for it, and an introduction of a certain number of labourers, by lowering wages, may increase the fair rate of profit to the capitalist, without reducing wages below that level which the prosperous existence of the labourer requires. Such an importation of labour, however, must necessarily have a limit, and if that limit be exceeded, the cfiect will be to reduce the wages of labour below that level which is compatible with the prosperity of the labourer, and thereby to induce the same character of evils (though perhaps under a mitigated form) from which the labourer had escaped on leaving the mother Country. On the principle of colonization of labourers, aided with capital, the only limit to the number of such labourers, as colonists, will be the extent and the fertility of the unoccupied soil. .5- -. • •- ^. ni with » M have, bji m fl itely tram- ■ r cue, the 9 rho believe 9 ation it, to 19 limiting its 9 tlicrance uf ^M ider to be ^H which haa ^H fleeting the ^H to suppose ^H by casual ^H > remove all 9 the removal 9 t it is by no 9 ihould emi- 9 ould be left 'a try by the 9 they would ^ nselves and f pauperism i ctical relief r, unable to (lunity. e of casual plated and there could i states, or in were over 'I y, to secure j h would be i 1 those from 9criminately at may exist ', , would pro- ed that our ed, without ' l)ourer8, and f, bounds to "* shortsight- 1 '^4 e following i the subject ^ " of jm " of the wrefchrd ntnte in which most of tin- t'oriiKn Kmik{runti« who daily arrive '■ here are I'uund, in regard of fcKNl, rlotliing, and tliv iiiruns nt '•iiibiiHtcnct' ; and " reprrhendini; the conduct of our municipal authorilicN wlio have the diipo*ul " of the atfair* of panprrimii, for the nenlt'ct niiuiifcKtcd tuwanls tht ^v niiacrnblo " bcinn« The picture <»f diiitrcM which ihdno KiiiigrantM |»rp»«m on thi-ir arrival " hort' IS almost indescribable ; and by many of our cHiit-ns great blamn is " attached to the commanders of our rivor crut't, f(»r bringing thtini from Now " York iind landing them upon our wharfs, knowing thorn to be destitute of ii " single cent to secure themselves a mouthful to eat ; the consequence of which " is, thry are next seen begging through our streets in the most luathnonit: and " iihject state of filth and misery. It appears that they beg in the city ot New " York till they get a few shillings, or sufficient to induce a captain of u tow- " boui, or some other craft, to bring thorn to Albany, where they arc left to " depend upon Providence and their ingenuity in the art of begging, in which, " by the way,, most of them are adepts. Somo provision must be made for these " wretched beings, though it is hard that the burden should come upon this city " (Albany,) us it seems to be at present, for it has lately become their chosen " thoroughfare, as they are pouring upon us from the north as well as from the *' south. Hunflreds arc drifted down the Northern Canal to meet hundreds more " floating up the Hudson, and all of them are found in the same destitute con- " dition." Vour Committee do not doubt that the House will be of opinion that if many thousands of Emigrants were to be added to the numbers here com* plained of, the nuisance would be so intolerable in the United States, as to induce them to increase the severity of their laws against the introduction of pauper Emigrants ; and if in consequence of their being driven from the United States, all those wretched beings are to be poured into the Canadas, the same circumstances of distress and misery must .ensue, .and the burden will be in- tolerable to the Colonies. - .1 ♦...: i i '. .1». I. , On the subject of an Emigration solely intended to supply the demands of Labour, Your Committee would particularly call the attention of the House, and of His Majesty's Government, to the Evidence which has been given with respect to the demand for labour in the Colonies of New South Wales, Van Diemen's Land, and the Cape of Good Hope; more especially to that proposition which has been suggested, of the colonists undertaking to repay, in a pre- scribed manner, any expense which may be incurred in the transport of Emigrants, for whose labour there is a special demand in those colonies. They do not entertain any doubt that if the subject be duly examined, if the evidence be transmitted to the Colonies, and information be invited respecting the prac- tical execution of the measure, a principle of supply may be adjusted, at an early period, under which the Colonists of the Cape, and of Nevf South Wales and Van Diemen's Land may receive precisely that proportion of labour which is suited to their wants ; while at the same time the independence which an indefmite supply of fertile land provides for the labourer, after a few years of exertion, will tend progressively to transmute all such labourers into colonists, 'and to create fresh demands for labour from the population of the mother Country. The advantages that may be expected to accrue to those colonies from the supply of a commodity, that is, labour, for which the most intense demand exists, will. Your Committee doubt not, be fully appreciated by the House. An examination of the valuable Evidence taken before Your Com- mittee upon this subject, will show that there is no cause which so much retards the progress and improvement of those colonies as the want of labour to bring their resources into full development, and will also establish the fact, that if a supply of labour be aflbrded to them, carefully adjusted to the real demand, 550. E3 the 38 THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE .•f)"' I the clainos which their necessities now enforce upon the mother Country will be progressively diminished; and that in the satisfactory application of that simpfe principle will he inyolved a degree of improvement in the colonial system of this country, which can scarcely be anticipated by the most sanguiae person. iVi QUESTIONS 3244 3245, 3246. 3'M7, 3248. yill. — Concluding Observations upon the advantage^ of a regulated Emigration, both to the Colonies and to the Mother Country. YOUR Committee would shortly call the attention of the House to those na- tural and artificial checks which, if Emigration be expedient as a national mea- sure, will prevent its ever being carried on to a degree prejudicial in any sense to the interest of the mother Country. First, as the Emigration is to be strictly voluntary, very few labourers will be disposed to leave their own country, who fi..i tihat their labour can produce a return sufficient to maintain themselves and their families at home. Secondly, as the expenses of the passage of the Enigrants to the Colonies, if the suggestion of Your Committee be adopted, wiU fall exclusively upon the district, parish, or individual who may consider such Emigrants redundant, either as tenantry, or as labourers, ao contribution will ever take place to aid Emigration, except in cases where such conviction dis- tinctly exists as to its necessity. Thirdly, if any attempts should be made by districts, parishes, or individuals to get rid of parties, being infirm persons or of bad character, it will be the duty of the Emigration Agent, provided that a fioard be formed on the principles recommended by Your Committee, to reject all such applications as inadmissible under the proposal offered by the Govern- ment : the assistance of Government being strictly extended to such class of Emigrants only as are specified in the two first propositions. The carrying on of any regulated system of Emigration upon an extended scale can only be justified by the blended consMeration of two main fmd prin- cipal points : First, the real saving effected at home by the removal of pa^>er labourers, txecuting no real functions as labourers, and not contributing to the annual production; Secondly, the probability of direct though progrtssive repayment from those labourers, when placed as Emigrants in the Colonies, and the indirect consequence of the increased demands for British manufactures, involved in the drcamstanc« of an increasing Colonial population. It will be seen, by reference to the evidence of Mr. Malthuu, that he admits, if thefe are labourers in the country for whose labour there is no real demand, and who have no means of subsistence, those labourers are of no advantage, as far as the wealth of the country is concerned ; aud consequently, that if they were to die, or to be removed, die wealth of the country would in no degree be diminished by their dece^e or removal. He considers labourers in this state. of redundancy,. as operating as a tax upon the community. Your Committee have referred to this opinion, because Uiere is much prejudice in the country upon this particular part of the subject, among persons who imagine that any abstracfibn of the population must be attended witlt prejudicial consequences to the geoerdl wealth apd prosperity of the country ; a proposition precisely the converse of u the maintaining ^f them at bbme, still the ,trfmsfer of the same amount of capital frgm Jthe one appropriation to t|ie,otber, would ^ a transfer, from an emplo^m^t botl^ compulsory .^^ unproductive, to one, strictly productive, if the eyiden<:f; taken before Your ^OOumiUee can be relied upon. QUESTIONS 3278. 3294- 3295- j-^' / '^ ^ H?r^i<^ N B 550. E4 Your 40 THIRD REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE - ' Your Committee are fully aware that if it could be demonstrated, or even shown to be probable, that ;£. 1,140,000. or any greater or leas sum, could be employed in any part of the mother Country, with the presumption of an equal amount of wealth being produced, and conseqi^ently n^th equal security' of return, as in the case of Emigration, and above all, if the comfort and indepen- dence of the 95,000 persons proposed to be removed as Emigrants, could be ^ equally secured by employment at home, a very strong'argument might be , >: ^ raised against the expediency of Emigration. But the opinions to be derived « from the very extensive evidence taken before Your Committee, in which the ■|"s;'n ' subject of cultivating the Waste lands of the mother Country has been fully ' • '' considered, are conclusively in favour of the profit to be derived from the ; einployment of capital in die cultivation of the ftrtihs lands of the Colonies, I ^ •• ,as compared' with the unproductive appropriation of capital at home in the > '^ employment of these paupers : and the House will understand that it is upon these opinions that the recommendation of Your Committee is formed. Even if the consideration of the double returns for the capitd advanced for Emigra- .. , tion were put wholly out of sight, namely, the direct return by the repajrment i, of the loan advanced to the Emfgrant, and the indirect return arising . froim the additional markets furnished for the commodities of the mother Country, as well as by the general increase of the wealth of the Empire, Your Committee are nevertheless satisfied that if it could be proved that the 95,000 persons were strictly redundant (in the sense employed by Your Committee,) . and that the vacuum would not be filled up, the expenditure oi {,. 1,140,000. for their removal ' would, in a national point of view, be an advantageous and judicious outlay. , But at the precise extent of the redundancy of those persons could never be absolutely proved, and as no conclusive security could be obtained for entire prevention of the filling up of such vacuum, they are prepared to allow diat a national outlay for the purposes of Emigration, unless attended with return, direct or indirect, could not be justified. In illustration of this opinion, if the two results considered in the preceding paragraph could be warranted, namely, that the vacuum could be prevented from being filled up, and that the labourers are strictly redundant, tb^ pro- position would stand thus : — The 95,000 persons, being ' those 95,000 persons taken collectively. The lowest annual charge, therefore, for the maintenance of thos^' 95,000 persons amounts to £,. 285,000. and a ' charge to that extent is a tax upon the productive indas*-y of the coramiinity. The difference therefore between the interest upon the loan proposed to be ad- vanced for a regdated system of ij^migration, namely £. 57,000. a year, and the computed annual charge of y^.285;ooo. being j£.228,oo'j. mast be considered as clear and ebtire gain to the community. In other words, the ratio of capital to population at home would be augmented, instead of being lessened, or even remaining the same, after the Emigration of those 95,000 persons. * ;v- The House will not fail. to observe, that if Emigration could be carried on as a national system, the Colonies would increase rapidly in wealth, and have the means furnished them oitaking up^n themselves the various expenses, military as well as civil, now incurred for them by the mother Country ; and tliis vrithout any addition to their burdens, but on. the contrary accompanied with an increase of wedth more than proportionate to the expense which they would have to t^die upon themselves. •, ' : With (ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 41 With a' rapidly increasing and thriving population, and under a liberal system of coloDial policy, the North American Colonies cannot fail to attain, at a com- paratively eftrly period, the means of relieving the mother Country from the annual expense incurrr ' in their maintenance; whilst by the general establish- ment of .our colonial 1 jlations upon the principle of reciprocity of benefits arising from commercial intercourse and the operation of common interests, the question will be solved, of the advantages which a parent State is capable of deriving from a well-organized colonial 'i^ystem. The population being" ^ thereby materially increased in our Colonjes, a peipetually increasing demand would exist for the manufactures of the mother Cpuntry ; an^ this not in the slightest degree arising from the relation between Colonies and a mother Country, but' on the mutual interests of the two countries, as it would be more to tli« ibteYeSt of the British Colonies to purchase manufactures ^rom the mother . Country, than to become manufacturers themselves. On the other hand, it would be more to the . interest of the mother Country to employ her capital in the fabrifcation of manufactures so wanted, than to employ it in the cultivation of her own waste )apds of inferior fertility. Wherever there is an indefinite quantity of unctecupied fertile land.Wages will of necessity be high, and manufacturing capital will not naturally establish itself under the circumstances of population incident to such a country. Manufac- tures can only be extensively produced in a country wh^re a great number of hands are withdrawn from the cultivation of the ground, in consequence of the land producing no adequate return of profit from increased cultivation. Your: Committee beg to rcifer the House to a paper given in by Mr. Buchanan, in.p^ge 455 of the Evidence, which shows that the ordinary tonnage in the trade between the mother Country and the Colonies furnishes, as far as stowage is involved, . the means of Emigration to the extent of 400,000 persons per annum. Your Committee cannot omit to call the particular attention of the Houije to this circumstance, as furnishing an extraordinary means of carry- ing any system of extended Edaigration into efiect ; and a collateral advantage arising from this circumstance is the increased cheapness of the returned freight in #mber, supposing the shipowner to have part of his profit realized by the payment of the passage of the Emigrants, as contrasted with the necessity of effecting, as hitherto, his voyage out in ballast. Your Committee, finally, beg in the strongest manner to confirm the opinion expressed in their Second Report, at the earlier part of the presant Session, which states, ".their deep conviction, that whatever may be the iminediate and ' " urgent demands from other quarters, it is^vain to hope for any permanent and " extensive advantage from any system of Emigration which does not primariiy " apply to Ireland, i^hose Population, unleys some* other outlet be opened to " them, must shortly fill up every vacuum created in England, or in Scotland, and *' reduce the labouring classes to a uniform state of degradation and misery." \ \ (26 May 1827.) 29 June 1827. 550. 4ir MINUt^ OF £?Il>i)fCE BEFORE SBLECr COMMrPrEE WITNESSES- Matiis, id* ^ Feitaarti, liaj: ■ /oieph I^cwter and Jtaaet litdt - p. 45 Jovis, 3a* die Fehnarii ; ^rdiilMld'CMiIiibcll.BMj. ii.'F. - p. 54 llioiDaiyKuMi'uKfinDedyfEsq.il.r. p. 59 Hniry HoMt DraiikiiM»iid,£M|.ii.r. p. 69 SabhH, a4*^FebruarU{ Mij|io# Thonv Moodf - t " p. 65 Mank, ifdk^thruarii: Itev. Jolin Mattliiaa Turher - - p. 73 Major Tboraas Moody - - -^ p. $3 r , .... J30 136 Jovis, IS* die Walter Burrelt, Esq. M. p. . - p. Mr, Thomas Bradbwy . . . p, 136 143 Sabbati, iy die Martii : David PoUey Francis, Esq. - - Thomas- Pri(i|^,.£si). ,..;-, -t - Flederick Carlisie, Esq. ;■..''. lient Thomas GhwMWbil* ' HMry BUn, Bat|. . . - * - jSfartit, vfieeMatiHt Mr. Wnf. Spenctf |f orthboasel delivers, in Eiltr«|it(s , from I Uiten itriiHttn by S«ttlerlif Itt Vp^# C«tMlda ■ -J Wn. Bomtian Fd^n, &q. - - David PoUey Fnmou, Esq. . . Thomas Lacosle, Esq. • . • Mr. James Taykr . «<^ biU-'-i»^: Mr. Jaimes Homewood ... Mr. Samnet MauQf " • ^ -'• "•* ; ■■':' '. !;•- ■■ \ Sabbati, ^(^ die Martii : Retnm, address^ /to the Over'-t . seen of Towndiips, Parish of I Wilmsiov. Comiy of Cfaes- f tnr, hfi. M. Tnmcr, RedorJ p. 144 p. 150 P>56 p. 157 p.>i64 p. 167 p. 169 P»7> fr'»74 p. 178 p. 180 5 p. 189 mid, a • «<*■■; p. 300 Martii, ^y* die Martii Sutement d<9^mnl in hy Sir' Henry Pmm, on the *^ pnlatlbii o? lirelarid - A. C. Bnchanan, Esq. delivers*! in Specification of Rations r ofProvisioBsttfbefiirtiaMl " P' '*" toEmigrants .... J lieott-ThouMs (;3uirlesWi>i(e • >, sot Mr. George Thompson ... tMf. Mr.Richard Webber Eaton . . p. 305 Jem, 2g' (Ue Jfyrtii: William FieMen, Esq. . ... p. 909 William Hulton, Esq. . . . p, nS SMati, 3i' ^Martii : Mr. William Sndlow FiUhugh • p. 335 Mr. Thomas Adams ... . p. 334 em RmofLKriQtt^fmmrjm mum mmwm, 43 , WXTNESSEB mnjmff M«rtiii q. - - p. 144 - - - p. 150 - . . T>56 bile - p. 157 •■ *' • pt»59 Matiiii boaael p.>64 iq. - ■■'-' ^. - - p. 169 - - - p. 171 •• «' •• p. 174 . . . p. 178 - * "- p. 180 Minimi 1 3ver--j Uhor Cbe«- ■ lector p. 18a »¥ SirY p^200 IWen' itioBi p. 301 mtt ■ >.«» - . - ibid. on - . P.8O5 M«rtii: - - - p. flop p. 9l6 Martii ihugh - p. 223 - - - ,?-'34 MarUt, ydieApiiUt: Lord Biibop of Ohetter <• • • p^ tas Willwni Henley Hyett, I2sq. - p. 244 C»pt Heary Wifliiun Scott, jt, (i. p. 953 Sabhati, f die J^ilU : Hngli Dixon, Eaq. - • - • p. 356 DaVM John lyilgon, E«q. - - p. 265 lieot. General Robert Browne • p. 370 John Bodkin,, Eiq. - • • - p. 871 Pimen delitCred in by T. S.y Rice, Etq.^M. p. 'reilkdfe to[ the l>opalatioa io t^M-\^'^*^1 naught • » '*" J * 1 Mr. Thoma* Knntof r. - - - ip.,^8of Martii, \0*£eApriUi: Aiexasder Hanter, Eiq. . . - p. 387 MerctarH, iVdik^Afirma: Dafid John Wilson, Etq. - • p. 393 Mr. Jamet West - - - - • p. 397 John Scott Vandeleur, Eaq. - > p. 300 Letter from Blackburn on thel •ubjeot of Emigratioli ./ ' P* 30l Jovit, lif iSe ApriUs : P*303 Carlisle, nope, I, Eiq Jovis, z'f^MaUi Mr. Beauvais' Plan for sup-1 pfyine Van Diemen's LandV 'p. 305' with Labourers - ; -J John Leslie Foster, Esq. m. p. - p. 307 Sabhati, f die Man. • Rev. Thomas Robert Malthas - p. 311 Marti*, STdieMoU: ■■■■■* Alesai^rNimmo, Esq. - - - p. 338 Jerrard Strickland, Esq^ - . . p. 33, John Leslie FoMfr, Eiq. M. p. • p<337 Peter Robinaoi^ Esq. . l . p. 3^ Letter firoa the Lieut Gove^|or^ ''- of Upper Cwndft, to EarTI _ ,. Bathurst, relative to th^f'F'3^ Emigration of 1825 • -1 Mr. Benedict Paiil Wagner'' - P-357 S^Miath 12' die Mmi William GMling, Eiq. Mr. Benjamin Willi - Mr.Thomai Wright • u^ P'4*' •"- 5»..368 ■ - P-374 Mortis, \i*dieMaii: Williac: Richard Coiway, Eiq. > p. 378 Dr. William Marphy - - - - p. 383 Jam*, 17* die Maii: Dr. John Strachaa - - ... p. 383 Peter Robinion, Eiq. - • - - p. 389 Jonathan Sewell, Esq< - . p. 390 Martit, 2i' die Maii: Mr. Thomaa Tred^old - . Simon M'Oilliv^y, Esq. . James Inglis, Esq. ... Lieut. Hanbnr^ Clement, a. w. Mr. John Howe . - . . Rev. John Thomas Beecher > Mr. Roswell Mount ... P-39» P'393 P-394 ibid. P-399 p. 400 p. 403 Jam, 24' die Maii i John Markbam Miuihnll, Esq. Peter Robinion, Eiq. • . Capt. William Marshall - • WiUiam Bowjpan Felton, Eiq. Alexander Buchanan, Eiq, - Mr. Roswell Monnt > . - F a p. 407 p. 413 P'43a ibid. P'433 P'439: § ' 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE WITNESSES— coNf/nNA/. Sabbati, 26* die Maii: Robert Stearne Tighe, Esq. • • p. 440 Thomas Spring Rice, Esq. m. p. p. 445 Sir Henry Parneil, Bart. m. p. - p. 451 Frederick Carlisle, Esq. • - - . p. 453 Mr. Buchanan's Statement of Shipping enKBged in the Timber Trade, from the ■ - p. 455 U. K. to the British N. A. Colonies - - - -. Lieut. Col. O'Hara's Apswersi to the Queries of The Chair- 1 - p. 456 man . - - -J Mortis, 2g*die Maii:^, Anthony Richard Blake, Esq. - p. 436 Sabbati, 2* die Junii: The Hon. Edward G. SUnley, m.p- p- 4^ ^ . Martis, 5* die Junii '• Prospectus of the Canada Com-i . pany, delivered in liy Simon I - p. 461 M'Gillivray, Esq. - -J A. C. Buchanan, Esq. •--!». 463 Luna, 35* die Junii : ' * John Richard Elmore, m. d. • p. 464 Mercurit, 2"!* die 'Junii : John Diston Powles, Esq. Dep.! Chfthrman of the Columbian I Agricultural Astociation; to- 1 ^,^ S ether with his Letter ad- / " V'^^ ressed to R. J. Wilmot HortOQ, Eiq. „- - - [For List of the Appendix, see page 4j6.2 •*1 i,»4^fV t. ON BAIIOHATiON FROAI THE UNITED KINGUOM: 1827. 45 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. r ;■> «»' Martitt 20* die Februarij, 1827. R. J. WiLMOT HORTON, ESQUIRE, IS rilE CHAIR, Joxph Faster and Janies lAttk, called in ; and Examined. 1. (To Jmph Foiter.J ^ WH ERE do you live i^— At Glasgow. 2. You are a member of the Glasgow Emigration Society? — I am president of the Olasffow Emi^tion Society; Mr. Little and myself were delegated by them to attend this Committee. ' , 3. That is not the only society for the purpose of emigration, at QIasgrow? — No, there are more. 4. You are not authorized by any other society to make communications to this Committee ?-^No ; on consulting with tome of the presidents and members of some of the other societies, we had the approbation of a few, but we were not authorized by any but our own. 5. Since when w it tiiat you have turned your attention to emigrating to the North American Provinces? — It is nearly two years since a certain proportion, about eleven or twelve families, turned their attention to that, and about one year agp we increased that number. In the month of May last we petitioned the Right honourable the Secretary of' State of the Colonial Departn-ient, for a grant of land in Canada, and the means of occupying it ; we got for answer, that no funds existed in that department ; we then appomtcd delqrates to call upon his Grace the Duke of Hamilton and Brandon, being the most imuential nobleman in Lanarkshire, to ask his opinion, and obtain bis interest if possible. 6. Are the Committee to understand that your motive in making those appli- cations with respect to emigration, arose from the impossibility of finding employ- ment, or rather of receiving wages suijScient to support yourselves and your families ? — Undoubtedly. ^ ' 7. Since what period has that inconvenience attached to you? — The period that the distress became general, and almost intolerable, was about, I think, February last. 8. Have you got any written statements with you, respecting the average rate of wages for the particular 6mplovment in which you and the other- persons applying for eougraUon are concerned ? — We have not a written statement, but we have made a minute examination, and kre prepared to give an average statement on that subject. q. You yourself are an operative weaver ? — Yes. \o. Are the rest of your society in the same employment as yourself i — ^They are net all, but a great proportion of them are. 11. What employnoent do the others follow ? — A few shoemakers, and one or two labourers, but the great proportion are weavers. 12. You consider the distress of the weavers as totally distinct from that of the spinners ? — Yes, we are quite certain it is. 13- Have you any spinners among your society? — I am not quite certain; I think there is one or two. • 14. As you state that the dbtre^ is chiefly limited to the weavers, how comes it that there should be persotu of those other trades in your society? — ^Tbe distress bears, in my opinion, very heavily upon shoemakers likewise ; there are a greater 550< ' F 3 number Jmeph Fiuttr and Jamti Littlt. 30 February, iSay. Joifjik Foiter and Jamtj Little. ao Fcbruury, 1837. iJrf "•fS"', 46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT CO.JMITTEE number of them out of employment, and their wages arc very low. With respect to the spinners, there arc peculiar motives, and I cannot precisely say ; their wages I know are better; and there is a delicacy in men, who are neishbours one to another, objecting to a person entering into a society, who comes forwrrd and wishes to enter. 15. Will you explain to the Committee the nature of your employment «• a weaver ? — The machines that we employ are all at tlie expense of the operative, with the exception of what is called the wheel, which is a trifling part of the materials necessary ; the hours of working are various, they arc sometimes workiog eighteen and nineteen hours, and even all night is quite common one or two nights in the week ; and on the calculation that we nave made of the wages, after deducting the necessary expenses, they will not amount to more than from four shillings ana sixpence to seven shillings per week. 16. Is your work by the piece, or by the day ? — Uniformly piece-work. 17. Will you describe to the Committee, with respect to yourself, what is your particular engagement, and in what manner it is executed, as between youtself and your master?— ^he general habit of the work is by the web; if it be fine, it occupies a longer time, it may be a fortnight, three weeks, four weeks, or even six weeks, but that is the nature of the bargain ; when the materials are wrought up, and the web is finished, the bargain is done. 1 8. At the period when the work commences, the wages are fixed ?— The w||gn are fixed at tlie pleasure of the master or employer for the next web again'. 19. Supposing the web takes five or six weeks, to execute ? — ^The wages continue the same. 20. No circumstance changes the engagement? — Unless the materials are found deficient ; if those are wrong, that is a circumstance that Jeads to a new bargain ; If, on referring to persons qualified {o judge, it is found to be so, there is a .^ew bargain; but if the materials are found to he sufBcient, no circumstance '.vbatever can vary the bargain. . 21. What is the particular sort of article that you manufacture ?— There are great variety of articles ; it is all cotton. 23. Do you work in a large factory, or do you carry on your work in your own house? — There are lew instances of work carried on in Glasgow and its neighbour- hood in large factories, it u all carried on in our own houses, or apartments connected with them ; there are almost no largje factories. 23. Therefore speaking of the operatives that you come here to represent^ the nature of their engagement is, that they contract for webs of cotton to be manu- factured in their own houses by the piece ? — Yes, by the yard, which amounts to the} same. 24. You have stated that your present rate of engagement ^yies you wages equal to between 4<. and 71. per week, according to, the time that you wwk ? — It is not according to the time we work, it is according to the qMality of the work, as there is very fine and very coarse, and more wages may be made at one that at aciotber i a man that works eighteen or nineteen hours, works at 44. at one kind of w»dt, when he might probably earn 6 s. at another. 25. That arises from the one being a better classof work than the other ?r-r Yes. 26. When you originally became a weaver, were. not the wages of labour aufficleut to remunerate you r — 'Yes. 27. At what period was Uu|t? — About the year tSoo, and down to 1^3 or 1805. • ; 28. Can you state what wog^ you received at that time for the two sorts of work for which you now describe the average wages per week to be 74. and 41. ? — I cannot go into particulars, but I am quite certain that the wwlc that we do.«ow for 4«. 64. and 5«. would have aflbrded by the same industry aot. at that pqriod and .^ number of years later than that. 29. To what causes do you attribute a fall in your wqges?r^UiMioui>ted!y, oom- petition in trade ; the merchants selling them lower, who can bring them uiwer ^to market, and then of course reducing the workinen; this was the impaediate cause. 30. Has there been any machinery introduced since iSoo in this |»rticular branch of weaving ? — A great proportion is now done by machmery. 31. With respect to your own individual work, do you execute the .work «ntrusted to you more by machinery now than ybu did in 1800?— We haw better improved materials or implements of working, but I have not wrought in the macJiiBe factories ; when I speak of weaving, I spe^ of hand-loom weaving. * 3>. Is '""WWK" ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa?. 47 vages contioue B?— There arc 39. Is it the feet that the work you now execute by hand is also executed by Iwaehinery on a larger scale ?—Ye9. 55. Is it the fact that that machinery upon a larger scale existed when you first [went into this trade ? — No. 34. The Committee suppose tliat in consequence of the distress you have expc- [rienMd, you and others connected with you have endeavoured to obtain employ- I ment in other branches of trade ? — Yes. , SS' Iltvevoa found that there is no demand for your services in other branches of Wide?— There is notie. 36. You feel therefore in fact that there is hardly any resource left to yon, under tboae circumstances ?— We km' of none. 37. Have the habits of any 01 those persons who belong to this society ever been agricultural ? — Some of them have been partially agricultural ; particularly these twelve months past they have been working at different employments, roads, and such other worln M they could get a subsistence by. 38. The distress among the persons whom you represent is extremely severe, is it not? — Extremely severe. 39. You state, m the petition of your society, that many of them have sold their household 'furniture, in order to pay their rent; does that apply genendly to the per- sons who beloos to the society ? — It does to the society, and to others likewise ; but it does app^ to those operatives I have before mentioned. 40. Have you friends from whom you bre in the habit of receiving letters from Canada ? — I na^ a brother, who writes to me occasionally. 41. From what part of Canada? — The township of Grenville. 42. When did be ^0 over there? — Eight years in next May. 43. Under what circumstances did he go over? — He had a few pounds, and paid his own passage, and went there ; be had a wife and two children. 44. Db you know enough of his history to be able to inform the Committee how he got settled upon the lands ho now occupies ?— A number went about that time, and some years after, depending lipon the Government grant ; he considered that he would go upon his own property, but he Wrote to me that that was an error, and thr.t by some influence, which he did not detail, he obtained the grant that Government had given to others, and that had it not been for that, his little pro- perty would not have put him into comfortable circuListances. 45. Are you aware whether your brother obtained a free grant, or whether he had t6 pay a fee upon it ?— I am not ; but I am aware that he was favoured particulariy by Government, or he could not have got into cbmfortable circumstances. 46. Do you know the number of acres he occupies, or any thing respecting the I details of his situation at this moment ? — It is a year past since f ROt a letter ; I I wrote to him, but I have not received an answer, and I cannot detail his cdndition. 47. Does he dpeak of himself ds being in a prosperous situation? — He does, iatod'he expressed h'ls astonishment upon eviery occasion thot I did n6t exert myself [in some way or other to come over there. 48. Your society connats of 140 persons? — ^Yes, one hundred and forty heads of [families. 49. Of those persons, how many are there in the prime of life, between the ages lof 14 and 50, who are perfectly well ib health and proper subjects for emigration? I — I, think a hundred and twenty or thirty may be in that situation; there are somo fthen ,1 know, that are not; but for the same reason that I mentiotied before: re- Bpectivi the spinners, we admitted a few of those. 1 50. What trtide wa» your brother in ? — He was a weaver. 51. Had he been emplbyed m agricultural labour before he went? — He was, iMtde; be was partially acquainted with it. 52. Is not it a fact that a large portion of the hand weavers in Scotland, in karvest and in hay time, work in the field ? — Yes, a great proportion of them do. *' 53. Has that long b^ their Custom ? — It has. 54. Have you continued a weaver since the year 1800 up to this time ?— Yes. 55- Durihg ^f$.t lime have ytiu fbund grieat vicissitudes m your trade r — Yes. 56. Hftve ydu been in a good dtuation at many times during tiiat period ? — Yes, ve have many times been in a comfortable situation. 57. Is it your oploibD, that althbugb you have many times been in an uncom- kbrtable situation, the number of hand-loom weavers during that period has much Ihicreased ?- -Tea, It h&s increased v^ery much. 58. And at the same time the machine weaving has also increaned ? — Yes, the 'J5<'* * F 4 machine JotefA FiMlrr itnd JttmrM Litlli. ^ ^ / ao February, 1817. / I 48 MINUTES OF EVIDEN'CK BEFORE SELECT COMMITIEE Juitpk Futltr and Jamtt ^llU, go Fe'jruiiry, 18J7. machine weaving for about six or ei^ht years bacit has rapidly increased ; it MeiMd to absorb every thiii^, except very tine tabrics. 59. A» power-loom weaving has increased, has the distress ot the hand weavers also increased in the same proportion ?— Undoubtedly it has. 60. Have you any hope that any possible improvement in the cotton trade would provide in future for the hand weavers who arc now out of employment? — Wo are quite confident it will not. 61. Have the weavers a general persuasion that the hand weaving is a business which is nearly extinct altogether ?~Tiiey have ; that is the general impression of all the well intormcd and intelligent weavers. 63. What was the lust year in which you, as a hand weaver, were in a good ' tituation ? — It is eight or ten years past. 63. In 1822, were not you in a tolerably good situation? — It was tolerable in 1822. 64. How long did that continue ? — I could not answer that exactly. 6j. Was it not tolerably good up to 1824? — It was tolcruble; but the wages even in 1824 were far below what would be considered sufficient to keep a family comfortable. 66. Did ypu think of emigrating in 1825?— I did; I thought of emigrating on any occasion when it was in my power, from the time my brother went away. 67. Was there not a general association among the hand-loom .weavers in Glasgow .. during the year 1824, for the purpose of emigrating ? — It was not general; the only ■ society that we know of was that that we are connected with ; at that time it became general, about the time that the Emigration Committee made their Report. r • 68. Are there many Irish, in Glasgow and Paisley and that neighbouiiiood, now . employed as hand weavers ? — There are a considerable number. 09. Has that supply of weavers from Ireland increased within the last ci^lit years ? — I think it has- 70. Has it increased since the steam boats began to pass from Ireluqd to i Glasgow? — I do not think that the weaving department has increased much; there ' have been a great number of labourers at our public works. 71. Du not great numbers of Irish come over fur employment, from Bel/fast and , that neighbourhood, to Glasgow ? — Yes, constantly. ', ',y,,/ , 7a. You have stated that the wages of your labour are insufficient to support you, and that you have turned your attention to other branches of labour ; and you have stated that you found none in which there was a demand for your services ; do not you attribute that very materially to the number of Irish people that have come over and have bt-en employed as labourers, which has lowered the wages of labour ? —We do. 73. You have stated that your distress first commenced about eight years ago ; f;! ^o you know when the power-loom was first brought into operation ? — I cannot state exactly, but I know about that time it became general. 1' 74. Are the Committee to understand that you attribute the insufficiency of your <: remuneration for your labour, to the introduction of machinery? — Yes. 75. Do you consider, therefore, that the introduction of machinery is objec- tionable ? — We do not; the weavers in general, of Glasgow and its vicinity, do not consider that machinery can or ought to be stopped, or put down ; they know per- iectly well that machinery must go on, that it will go on, and that it is impossible to stop it; they are aware that every implement of agriculture and manufacture is a portion of machinery, and indeed every thing that goes beyond the teeth and. nails (if I may use the expression) is a machine. I am authorized by the majority of our society to say that I speak their minds as well as my own, in stating this. 76. Are you aware of the tax on printed cottons?— I know there is a tax on printed cottons. 77. In hand weaving, you can weave variegated patterns, without printing? — Yes.- . .1 78. The power-loom, as yet, cannot do that ?— It cannot do that ; but in some instances it does perform it tolerably well at present, and it is going on rapidly to perfection, even in that point. 79. Then the tax which is laid upon printed goods is saved upon those articles that are woven by the hand loom ? — It is. 80. If the tax on printed gooil.s were repealed, the hand weavers could not come into competition at all with the power-loom ? — No. With resi)ect to the tax on cotton »ut printing r — 11 those articles ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: mi;. 49 cotton goods being reficalod, the coiMuiner and the inanutacturer would receive the benetic, and not we. 81. Wm there not « imchine «t Paisley that could weave what is called tambour mushns ?— Yes. 83. Is that in operation still ? — I believe it is ; but I am nut certain att to Ihat. 83. Do you consider t'tat a reduction in the prenent price of corn would o|)crate to K'^*^ v"" relief, under the present circunistances of the trade f — That is a ques- tion that I am scarcely capable of answering ; there is a variety of opinbns upon that point; the general impression upon the mind of the weavers is, that it would. 84. In what HMinner do you yourself suppose it would operate to give you relief, under the circumstances of your trade, there being no demand for your particular labour, so as to pay you a remunerating price ; would not the probab'*« consequence of a diminution in the price of corn be, to reduce your wages below what they now •re, BO as to meet that additional cheapness ?-^ The general opinion of the weavers is, that it would benefit the trade, by enabling the countries from which we received the com, to take part of our manufactures ; but when we recollect that machinery will be just increased in proportion as the demand for manufactures is increased, we •re quite certain that liand weaving cannot, under the present circumstances, afford • living, even were that to be obtained. 85. Your opinion is, that a reduction in the price of corn would b« generally advantageous to the labouring classes, but that in your particular ease it would be of no UN to you, becauaa you would come :nto competition with those that would be equally beneficed by it ?— Yes. V6. Haw the wages for weaving risen and fUlen oceuionally since you have been in the trade ? — ^They have, but they have generally fisllen lower and lower, down to the present time; when they got rather better again, they never rose to what they were befine. 87. Did • reductioti in the price of wages take place upon the fall of the prke of eom ?-~-I etonot say that it had directly that effect at that time. 88. What hss been the cause of your reduction of wages ? — I have answered that; b my opinion, it was tbe placed when you got there? — W'e ex|)ected that ills Majesty's Government, with the assistance of Parliament, would ^ive a grant of land, and the means of occupying it, with a passage out, and this is what we have petitioned Purliainent for. iu6. When you say that, do yuu mean that each individual fumily ia to got • separate grant of land, and separate assistance from Parlioment ? — Yes. 107. Have you had an opportunity of reading the Report and Evidence of the Emigration Committee?— We have had; we read extracts and papers from it; that portion of them that related more directly to us. 1 08. You understand, generall ', the nature of the principal assistance tlwt has been given to the emigrants that Went out in 1813 ?— We do. 109. If you had your choice, nould ^ou prefer, from what you have beard from your relation in Canada, to go out without auistQiicn and take your chance of Srospering, or to receive assistance upon the principles that are explained in the :eport and the Evidence of the Emigration Committee, and to make yourself liable for tlie repayment of any money that might be advanced tu you for that purpose?— We would certainly prefer to receive assistance! and make ourselves liable lor the repayment of the money. 110. Would you willingly consent to an arrang^ement which should makeiyoui land a security for such repayment ?— Yea. in. For example, if you were to be settled in the proportion of a man and wuinun and three children upon one hundred acres, more or less, in Upper Canada, and you were not to be called upon to pay interest, or to pay any money fur. seven years, would yuu undertake to pay five per cent interest for the money so advanced to you, until the period arrived at which you could pay the principal r — Undoubtedly we would undertake to pay that which it was in our power to pay ; «v« do not. know the nature of the place, and the success we should meet with, but we would under- take tQ pay whatever sum it was possible for men of industrious bsbits to pay, for the pur|)0!iv of repaying what we had received. 1 1 2. You would consider, that provided you received assistance, and had ample time given you for you to be placed in a situation in which you had the means of doing it, no sort of injustice would be dbne you in calling upon you (o pay interest for the money advanced r — No ; we would consider that, both froaii gratitude «nd justice, we were bound tu p«y it. 113. Do you think that would be tlie general impression of the persons yOu have mentioned r— I am certain it would y we have repeatedly talked of it, and I am quite prepared to give their opinion upon that subject 1 14. Would you be willing, on receiving your allotment of land, to mortgage that allotment to the public as a security for the repayment of the money? — Certainly; we understood that that was generally the case. 115. Do you understand that you would not have the legal possession of. that property, so as tu be able to alienate it, till you had paid the wliole or part of the debt ? — We understand that perfectly. ■ 116. You would be content to receive it upon those terms? — Yes. 117. In short, you would be perfectly willing to consent to any arrangenketit which did not require of you more than what, if you were industrious and ve\i cun- dncted, you might reasonably expect that you should be able to |)erfori» ? — iWe would eccivc it «vitli tlie gicate!»t gratitude upon those terms. 115. The ON EMIGRATION FROM THE LTNITEU KINGDOM: i8j7 51 can aflhrd to itanco tliat hat llM. Tbc qiinlHin doe* tiot refer to your piircha»iii|| your land, Imt to payiiii; tiark 1^1 mooty wbkli i* ncccMary to be advanced for the pur|K>M! of lrBni|iurtin)( yo«i 10 Canada, and placinK you in a tituation in wliick yuu would lie hIiIu to (iroaper in , that country ?— Certainly. I lij. You, of course, wr.uld be liable to any local taiea in tbat country, liiat the lawi of that country might iinpoae?— No doubt of it, we are aware thut they uro neceasary to a certain extent. ijo. Have you any relation or friend who hai enii^rated to the United Stutet? — I have, but it ia a long time back ; I have had no communication with him, 131. You do not know any periou that hus emigrated to Uie United Stales from Glasgow or Paisley? — No. laa. If you went to America, and the option was given you of gaining your livelihood in some manufacture or trade, should you prefer that inntead of taking to agricultural pursuits?— We, as a society, are determined, and my own opinion, as ■n individual, is the same, not to meddle with manufacture ; we are quite disgusted with it, and tired of it. 1 33. You have referred to your brotlier in Upper Canada ; will you inform the Committee of the condition in which his last account represent him to lie ? — His address is, the head of Lung Soult, on the Ottawa. He said that he had a considerable portion of land cleared, he did not name what ; he said that he had some cattle, and with the produce of his own farm and land, and a little he had purchased like- wise, he waited a few months on the cunal, and sold it to thoso who were digging it, and that he got a turn of money which waa particularly serviceable to assist him in getting on in the world. 124. Do you know how much money he had when he went out?— He had but a very few pounds, eight or ten pounds, after paying all expenses of landing in Canada. 135. Had he any other aid from government but the grant of the land ?~He did get implements of agriculture likewise, and some other assistance. 196. Had he any money assistance? — He did not say exactly, but he said that he fell into a great error in not going out of this country upon the government grant, and had ht not by some means obtained some assistance, he would have been in embarrassed circumstances. 137. Did be pay his own passage? — Yes. 138. Was he alone, except his wife and children? — There were his wife and children and himself. 139. Do you know what his passage cost him ? — He paid, I think, five pourJs each passenger. 130. Was that for passage and provisions? — For passage and provisions, and he took a certain portion of provisions with him. 131. Was he lauded in (Quebec for that?— He was. 133. Have you or any of your society made any estimate of the expense of goin^ out to CanMda? — We have not; we looked at the general list of expense that it cost in iS'20 astd 1821, and we thought that probably it might be modified, but we have not mw^ an estimate. 133- What do you understand the expense to have been in 1820 and 1831 ? — I think it was 6 /. tor each passenger. 134. To what extent could persons connected with your society pay the expense of conveying themselves to Canada ? — As a body I think they could pay nothing ; but we applied to a number of wealthy and respectable citizens, we told them of our embarrassed circumstances, and we solicited their assistance in forming a fund to provide clothes and other necessaries ; they said < ey would in part assist us, and a number of them have subscribed, and others have promised they will yet do more wlien we are enabled to avail ourselves of it; they have subscribed sooqetbing for the purpose of clothing and other necessaries. 135. Are the subscriptions they have entered into, for the express purpow of facilitating your emigration, or for general charity ?— For fiicilitating our eipigratjon, undoubtedly. . 136. Supposing arrangements to be made for giving, you in Canada gratits of land, with some assistance in forming your settlements, by giving you tools and other things,, do you tbi/nk that persons desirous of emigrating could, either by their own means or through the- assistance of their wealthier neighbours,, be able to convey themselves taCaoatla at their own expense?— We think not. /, ,550. ,^ 2 ' 137. Do Jattfk Fmlrr ■imI Jamti iMtlt, ii> Krbruurj, ili7. 52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMlTTtS JuMfk Fa/Utr •ad /•mmLMc. a* Ftbriiury, h ^37. Do you think, if it were aacertoiucd that provision was made there for their riceptioo and their eatabtiahmeitt iifwa tba iaad, thai piweoio deeirewa of e wig ^ at ia rf would not be able to nuNter-Btifikient neaosk either of tb^b omt or hy'flbmiM M those disposed to assist them, to take them out ?— We think net. I 138. You have said, that every person of yeor society that was disposed to gi to America, had the expectation of obtaining a grant of land ; bare you any idea thil emigrants would be found willing to go fur the purpose of offering their labour to otiaan, without havine a special grant of land to each party thai went? — ^Tbere ar^ none of our association that seem to wish it ; their object is to obtain a grant W land, so as to bccooia independent by their own industry. 1 39. If the Committee understood you correctly, you stated, in a formet part 144. Do you think that you could-lo(mr we a vers ■ m Glasgow and Paisley? — In G jasgow and the suburbs there were 1 1 ,000 looms going ; among those of course there'are' boys and girls. 153. What arc at the present time the average net earnings of each hand weaver by die week, on an average ?-^I should say J«. 6d. 154. What is .th«i housc-reoit of each individual by tho -half year, upon the average ?' — It depends upon the house they occupy, it is from three to four pounds ; thfr plaice of working for one- weaver is one- pound, not included;, they have their luiuse and shop besides that. 1.55. Are not the greater proportion of the house-itnts of tito^e weavers nOw in arrear ? — They are. 156. Consequently they are at the mercy of their landlords, and; may be eject^'P^Tbey kre jbst at thdr mercy; almost every individual of them is in arrear. 157. Is it the practice of tiie manufacturers of Glasgow to have houses and work- shops, which they let out to the weavers they themselves emplpy P—No, it is hot the general practice. ' . 158. Are the hoHses they occupy frequently wholly independent of the master manufacturers? — Yes. 159. If Government were to consent to make grants of land to those 140 heads of families of which your society consists, do you think you could find any means of getting assistance to take you there and to settle you there? — We could not, it is quite impossible. 160. Even if tliose 140 were provided for, you are understood to state that the situation of all the other hand weavers in Glasgow is as desperate as that of those 1 40 ?-- -There are numbers of them as desperate. 161. Can you form any opinion whether if five hundred or a thousand were abstracted from the present population of your neighbourhood, there would be suiiicient work for the remainder r- -Not at good wages ; they could not obtain good wages 8upp«jsing one half or two thirds were taken, but they would find work more readily. 1 62. You do not think there would be work at fkir wages even for one-third of the existing population ? — I think not, from the cause I before mentioned, namely, ilw machinery. 163. What sort of food forms the principal subsistence of the weavers ?—Oatmea! and potatoes, and probably a little salt herring or something of that kind ; a number of them have not a sufficient quantity of that. 164. How many hand weavers are there in Glasgow and Paisley? — Generally speaking, I might say. 1-5,000 in Glasgow and Paisley. 165. Even if.500 liands were removed, and the power loom were improved from time to time ar rapidly as it has been improved for the last two years, do you not imagine that (he removal of 500 hands would prwluce no effect by creating any fresh FebruB'y, 1897. :>'• 54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE » 166. You say that the power loom is not yet perfect, but that it is tonslantly being improved ? — It is constantly being improved. 167. Of how many hand neavers can one pair of power looms do the work, i&tbe course of the day ? —It is at least equal to six. 168. And the work of one girl upon a pair of power looms is sufficient? — It is; one man looking over thirty or forty or fifty of those girls, and keeping the materials in order. 169. If the number of hand-loom weavers were diminished, and the wages of the remaining number increased, would noMhe price of the manufactured article be,d8q increased ? — I think, from the nature of the power loom, as I said before, taking up all the business, the price of the manufactureid article cannot be increased. 1 70. If it were increased, it would check the sale of the manufactured article?-^ It would. 171. And therefore it would, in your opinion, make the situation of the hand*loioin weaver as bad as before ? — I think that it cannot be increased, from the quantity of work performed by the power loom ; just in proportion as the demand increases, in that proportion the power looms will increase. 1 72. Which b the cheapest, a piece of goods made by a power loom or a piece of goods made by a han4 loom ? — A power loom is the cheapest. I Campbell, E«q. 39 February, 1837. Jovis, 22° die Februarii, 1827. Archibald Campbell, Esq. ' a Member of the Committee ; was Examined. 173. HAVE you bad an opportunity of reading the Evidence given before this Committee on Tuesday last, by the two deputies from the Glasgow Emigration Society ? — I have. 1 74. Does your inforniation enable you to concur in the statement they have made? — In the fullest manner ; I concur in every fact stated by the people that were examined. 175. Are your enabled to inform the Committee of the extent to which distress, of a similar nature, exists in any part of Scotland ?— I can speak more particularly with reference to Renfrewshire, than with reference to any part of Lanarkshire, Here is a Statement of the number of families, distinguishing the ages of the cluldren, who are seeking to emigrate from the county of Renfrew. [7Tu tame wat delivered in, and read, asfoUawi:] •i'. ABSTRACT ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 55 KfiSTRACT of the Number of Peritons composing the following ISocietiet in the G>unty oi Renfrew, who have petitioned for aid to enable thenn to migrate to the Briluh Possessions in North America'., made up by direction of the Lord Lieutenant of Rmfrewthirt, January 1837. ■ Head) ofFamilie*: Male Children: Tolel Numbei of Hele Children Female Children. 1 1 i! H Name of Society. Men. Woncn. Unfler It Yewt of Age. Abife It (c under to. Abon to Yeer. of Agr< Uniier It Veen of Age. Above It llnndtr VO. Above to Yeere of Age. ■ley FriencHy Emigration^ ■ Society, N* I./ 100 9O 138 73 . >5 335 193 47 16 185 6ofi Hiey Caledonian d* d* 54 53 64 38 10 113 6;i 16 10 89 308 Hley & Suburbt d* d* 56 56 61 30 5 96 58 li3 7 87 995 Hey Canadian d' d* 113 >05 146 81 36 «53 >«5 55 36 906 676 Bey Caledonian.|j. .. 86 37 39 9 8 56 35 8 1 44 153 Hiriih Friendly d* d* 101 99 - - - - - - - - 676' • Benhi Emigration d* 50 50 70 44 - 114 44 53 - 97 311 HirhtMl&Neilitond* d* 43 43 46 37 6 79 *r «9 «4 77 343 Homlaad - • d* d* 66 64 84 45 16 •45 C£ 3> 6 99 374 Bemian Protest* d* d* 60 59 68 4C 9 133 49 31 8 88 330 ^^an Emigration d* 50 48 4" 38 10 80 5« 35 8 95 873 Hley Friendly d* K* 3 60 60 76 50 30 146 64 34 33 130 386 ■|n«ton Emiferation d* • >5 '5 36 »3 11 50 18 18 7 43 133 ^ Total - - 793 775 860 ♦" 136 >.479 736 3fi9 «95 1,330 4.653 ** tO' Tl>e Return made by thi< Society does not distinguish the numberi of Male and Female Children; out the numben of Children, Male and Female, are Under 13 Above 1 3 171 S05 376 -«" ABSTRACT 176. Do those societies consist of hand-loom weavers? — I believe they do, I entirely. 1 77. Can you explain to the Committee what district they extend over ? — They I extend over the whoie ui the '*niinty of Renfrew ; a great number of them that are i resident in the viliages, are employed partly in agriculture. 178. Are there many of them in some degree accustomed to agricultural habits? 1 — Yes. 1 79. Are you prepared to give the Committee any details respecting any other Ipersons similarly situated in that part of the kingdom? — I know there are a great {number in the adjoining county of Lanarki who are also petitioning for assistance \o emigrate. There are likewise various societies in the county of Renfrew, for vhoni Mr. Maxwell, the member for the county, has presented petitions. 1 80. Do you think that those people for the most part are aware of the nature of he country^ and of the labour that will be required of them ? — 1 think they are, from be correspondence that took place between tl^em and the emigrants that went out bme years ago, whose reports with regard to their situation have been extremely Ivourable ; I have seen many letters from those settlers who went out in 1 820, that ive a very favourable account of their situation in Upper Canada. 181. You think they are aware of the nature of the difficulties they will have to klicounter, and are ready to meet them ? — 1 think they are, generally. ' 182. Do you consider that there is any opportunity at present of their being employed in their own country, in such a manner as to obtain wages of labour by which they can support themselves?— I think not 550. G 4 183 Is A. CampMI, Ksq. 33 February, 1817. 36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE A. CampteV, Raq. it FeliruHry, 1837. Iv : 1 ..w '/ t 183. Is it a prevailing opinion in that part of the country, that there is no early likelihood of such a state of thines occurring, ai> to give employment to those people ? — There are n'.aiiy various opinions upon the subject, and things are improving just at this moment ; almost every weaver in that part of the country is employed, and wages are rising. iS4.. Have you an opportunity of stating to the Committee what is the preient rate of wages?— No. 1 85. Is it the general opinion in that part of the connlry, thet the influx of Irish has tended to throw thrse people out-of employment ? — It certainly has; be* lately great numbers of the Irish have been removed ; we gave them passages buck to their own country, taking an exact description of them, to prevent their having recourse to our fund? bgain. I have here a copy of the last report of the suh-cum- mittee of the county of Renfrew for the relief of unemployed operatives. I" [Tfie tame ueut delivered in, and read, at fMmt:] " Report by the Sub-committee of the county of Renfrew for the relief of the unemployed Operatives. " The number of families dependent ok the committee, at the dite of tlie last report, was - - - - - -- -• 1,361 The number at this date is - - - - - - * 1,245 ' The decrease, during the week, is - - - - 116 Sums to the amount of 40 ' have been allotted by the Committee to several of the remoter districts of the county where distress still exists, and the other expenditure of the week has amounted to 210/. Several small donations have been recently received, and the fund remaining onliand, at this date, is 1,040/. " Preses. Council Chambers, Paisley, (signed) " Rob. Farquhstrtm," " 15th February 1827." 186. Have you had an opportunity of hearing lately from any person who is competent to speak with authority upon the sta;'' of that part of the country? — I have a letter, which I received this day by post from the chief magistrate of Paisley, which contains the following passu,4e, " I am most happy to say that matters are, as far as regards the weavers, still Improving; tlie work plenty, with wages advancing; but the labourers, ana I may say all other operatives, are very ill off. 187. Are those Irish that comf over from Belfast chiefly weavers, or are tbey common labourers? — ^Those that come to Paisley are chiefly weavers; the labourers are generally employed in the more western part of Scotland; in Ayrshire and Wigtonaliire there are a great many Irish labourers, but we have not a great many Irish labourers in Renfrewshire. 188. Do you know where they come from i — Mostly from the north, I believe ; about Belfast, I thin!:, is the chief part. 1 89. Have you any means of estimating the comparative rate of wages paid to the hand weavers, and to the power-loom weavers ? — No. 1 90. Have many of those weavers, to your knowledge, been employed in road making, and oiher hard labour out of doors, during the time of tlie distress? — A great many have been employed in making roads, and in various other occi)pa- tiotis, deepening rivers, &c, : 191. Has it been found that they were able to endure that labour ai well ais, the cQuiinon labourers of the country ? — The summei; was exceedingly favoyrable ; but if it, had been as wet a season as we usually have, they would all hcve been in the hospital. : 199. Are those Emigiation Societies, of which you have given a list, composed entirely of unemployed operatives? — I believe entirely of the operatives une^ployed^ or partially employed. 193. They consist in no degree of persons who have funds o' their owu, able to assist in the object pf eiiii|,rating? — All of them that I have seen, and Iliave com-> munichtion with cnost of the societies of . Renfrewshire, have declared that they QO^nnot contribute one shilling towards their own eiuigration. 194. Have. you any rr; ason to suppose that if assistance w^re girciii by goxera-) ipeat to t^ose persons to emigrate, it would be m^t by corresponding assistance frorn priv^. ur public f^nds, in the neighbourhood from whicb they icamoj--) r have not. ...,■.:■-....■:. s ■. - .-.i •).]„ ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa?- 57 J 95. You think that no sum could be raised ? — If any, it would be so trifling a sum.- that it would be of very little con'-.equence. 1 96. Is there any thing practically in the nature of a parochial rate in Renfrew- shire for the relief of the poor ? — No ; there is something very similar in one or two of the town parishes, where they have been obliged to call for voluntary assessment. 197. In point of fact, with respect to those distressed operatives who are out of ennployment, and who have no means of their own, from what fund does their sup- port proceed? — The rate of expenditure of the relief committee at Paisley amounted weekly to 500/. all furnished by voluntary subscription, not onl^- in that particular county, but we have received large sums from the London Relief Committee ; we have expended since the ist of March last, I think, 22,000/. 198. Have you any opportunity of knowing the number of persons to whom that 32,000/. has been dispensed r — It iraried almost every weejc ; the number of fami- lies, I believe, was as high as 2,600 at one time ; they have been gradually diminish- ing, for some week^. ' 199. Does that 22,000 /. apply to Renfrewshire alone ? — ^To Renfrewshire alone ; we have no communica|ion with any other county. 300. Do you happen to know whether the majority of persons receiving relief from this fund, are Scotch or Irish ? — The greater proportion are Scotch ; there sre still somo Irish that have been in the country for a ("^ng time, and are in a manner established there, who have gained what would be called in this country a settlement. 301 . In Scotland there is no law of removal ?— No. . 303. Does not three years continued residence give a settlement in Scotland ?— It does. 303. Do you know the Abbey parish in Pauley ? — Perfectly. 304. Do you remember, in 1819, an application being made by 835 able-bodied men for relief, on account of the stagnation of trai'-* in that parish ? — I cannot say that I recollect the exact circumstances ; I know there was a question arose upon an application from certain people claiming a right to relief; but what decision there was upon that, or whether there ever was any decision, I do not remember ; I think the thing is not decided now. 205. Was not the application to the kirk session in the first instance refused, and was there not upon that an appeal to the sheriff? — That I recollect. 306. Did not the sheriff, in that c^se, make an order on the kirk session to assay} themselves for the relief of those 825 persons ? — I do not recollect. 207. You say that you have seen favourable accounts from some persons who have settled in the northern provinces of America ; are you aware of the extent of assistance from government that those settlers received ? — I am not. 208. Can you state whether the appointment of this Committee has created much expectation among the heads of families composing those emigration societies in Renfrewshire, that mey are to get relief from government to carry them to America ?— There is no doubt that very sanguine expectations have been raised in consequence of the report of the Committee that sat in the last year. 209. You have stated, that it is the generkl opinion in Renfrewshire, that no early opportunity will occur of employing those persons who are now in a state 6t distress; you have also stated, that the sum of 33,000/. ! j been expended in their support, such sum arising from loca' "nd voluntary subscriptions ; have you any reason to suppose, under the existing circumstances of that part of Scotiand, that in the ensuing year those parties can be sustained at a less expense than what has been incurred in the last ? — I should hope at infinitely less, from the appearance of the revival of trr.de ; and the weavers are at this moment, as I stated before from the authority of the chief magistrate, now in work, all of tbem, and wages are ' advancing. 210. You conceive that the pressure upon the other classes is of a temporary nuture ?— I conceive so. . '^11. Yoii have stated, that a great number of the Irish have been sent back, from Renfrewshire to their own country, and that means have been taken to prevent their retqrn ; will you have the goodness to state more in det'il the nature of thote means T^Wtieti we gave an Irishman a ticket upon a steam boat, to earn him back, and a foaf t6 bobsist upon forth day, ve took an exrct description of his peMon, , aftd assured 'hlin, that ii he returned, he would not be entitled to any relief from our funds. ^ 550. . II 312. Is A. Qimfiea, Esq. j • 7. Cat! you inforntthe Committee tvbat proportion uf the 33,000/. which was rais or the relief of those persons, was raised by voluntary contributions on tlie spO' id what proportion was received from the London Relief Committee i — ABSTRACT of the Receipts and Expenditure of the Committee of the County of Renfrew, appointed for the Relief of the Unemployed Operative Manufacturers, to the 33d of February 1837. < HECEIVED : From The King - - - From the London Relief Committee From the Edinburgh Relief Committee - From the Committee of the County of Haddington Fro the Newcastle Committee . - From the Glasgow Committee ... Amount of local Subscriptions, and other privato pe cuniary donations, proceeds of Church Collections, Charity Balls and Concerts, and Receipts for Work performed - -. -•- ... ZXPKNDtD i^ ' In Wages for out-door labour provided by the Com- mittee, and in distribution of Provisions, Coals and small pecuniary Aid - - jC- 19>5<^1 ^i 3 In providine Clothing ... 1,399 8 - Balance in Treasurers bands,! 33d February - -J 908 d. 500 8,ouo 4,6uo 300 150 395 7.y33 »9 3 31,868 19 3 31,868 19 3 N. J?.— Besides the above AccoUft, various Noblemen and Gentlemen of the county have expended very large wms in giving work and provisions to the unemployed residing contiguous to their respective estates. There have also been considerable Contribotions raised and applied within several of the Parishes ; and several thousand articles of Clothing sent by private individuals to the several depots have been distributed. The Coalmasters in the neighbourhood have also from time to time gratuitously given large quantities of Coals. The average weekly pecuniary Expenditure of the Committe, from the commence^ mient up to the 33d February, has been 410/,, and the average weekly number of families dependent en them has been 2,030. ' 318. What is the class of persons at the present moment receiving relief mnn 'the local funds ? — The chief demand upon the Paisley relief fund at present is from widows and orphan families ; the men in general have been struck off. 3ig. If one thousand weavers were removed from Glasgow and its nei^boutr- hbod, and wuge% rose, have you any doubt that the vacuum so created would be tilled up from Ireland in a very short time ?— I entertain not the least doubt upou the ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: .827. 59 the subject I have here a letter which I received a few days ago from the central coaMnittee of the Emigration societies of Renfrewshire. [The tame wat deliv&ed in, and read, oifoUowt:] /, ' " Previous to your presenting our Petition, it may not perhaps be improper to slate to you more /ully than hitherto the ti'ue situation we are placed in, in order that you may be prepared, when the subject of Emigration ia discussing in Par- liament, to urge the advantage it will be to us if sei|t out early, in the season. For although the severe distress we are now in is well known to the Honorable Home of which you are a member, it may not have occurred to their minds the extent that that distress will reach when the term (28th of May) shall have expired. " It has been utterly impossible for us to^y this year any rent to our landlords, consequently the little property we now possess, becomes theirs; and we cannot expect that they will let us houses fo'. another term. We have no otiier prospect but that we shall be turned to the streets, without a blanket to cover eiuier ourselves or cbildreA, or implements to work at our trades ; besides, should our landlords be even so lenient as to grant us in that desolate state their iiouses for another, still we are incurring a debt of a whole year's rent, for no houses are let for a shorter period in Renfrewshire. " May your Honor therefore iake our case into mature consideration, and >in presenting our Petitions urge the necessity of sending us away previous to the above stated period. We are, Honored Sir, With great respect, Yt'iir very humble Servant' (For the* Central Committee of the Emigration « " Archibald Campbell, Esq. u. r. Societies of Renfrewshire,) London." Adam Millar, Secretary." A. CmoUU, Ek,. ft a Fabnivy, lit?. Thomas Francit Kennedy, Esq. a MemU:r of the House ; Examined. 320. WHAT is the part of bc^-.iund with which you are best acquainted? — I pro- fessed to speak only respecting the county t>f Ayr, and I do uot wish the Committee to uu^^rstand that I possess by any means complete intl.aiation even as to the whole of that county. 221. Are there any persons in that neighbourhood who have expressed a desire to emigrate tp America ? — I yesterday presented to the House tl "; Petitions from persons desiring assistance for that object in a very earnest' 1 .ler. I do net believe that those Petitions by any means express the opinion of me entire body of persons desiring to emigrate; I should suppose that if there were any chance of sufficient aid being afforded, that number would be very greatly increased ; and I state this opinion, because I know the class o|;iei'sons from whom those Petitions come, are slow to petition on any subject, it not being their habit to interfere .by addressing themselves to Parliament unless in very urgent circumstances. 222. What is the number of the Petitioners, and of what class of persons are they compc i? — I think that the numb^ of heads of families included in those three Petitions amounts to ninety-two, and they are operative manufacturers in cotton weaving. 223. Are they employed at hand-loom weaving? — Hand-loom weaving; persons whose work comes from Glasgow, being sent a very considerable distance into the country to be p ntbrmed ; and of course the greater the distance from Glasgow, the more quickly are they sensible of any depression in the trade in which they are engaged. . 924. Have they been for any time in great distress? — I should say that the dutress has been urgent for about a year. 225. Have the gentlemen in that part of the country afibrded them any relief?— A very great degree of local relief has been afforded, besides usistance received from the London and Edinburgh Committees; and I think I may safely say that the people thcqiselves would besir testimony to the humane treatment which they bine received, inA in saying this I am happy to add my distinct and strong testimony in 550. H 2 favour T. F. Ktniit4y, Esq. .•y" r. /. Ktimtii/, fs Fcbronry, i8«7. 1 V >.,, • » 60 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE fa^Qur of the excellent copduct of all those penoiu, without exception, who b«v« coqgie within my obwrvation diuiogtbe period of distrew to which I refer. 336. Do yoa^nceive ttyit those persons have any knowledge of the difficultiet they are likely to encounter, when they propose to emigrate to America?— I should tliink it very unlik^lv that they should be thoroughly aware of the difficulties they ma^ encounter; at (be same time,«the county of Ayr is »part of the country from which persons have eften proceeded to America, and therefore I by no mean* intagrtle that they are entirely igporant either of the disadvantages or comptrttive comforts which mfght arise from their being sent to that country. 227. Poyou. c^aceive that |Iir gentlemen in that part of the country, or the indivifluals'whobavfljigned thos* petitions, would be willing 4o contribute largely ta the expense 6f their removal to America?— With respect to the parties signing thlBf^titions, I apprehend. they are quite incapable of contributing any thing, being possessed of ub property whatever. With respect to the landholders in the neigh- l)onrhQod where they hve, I should extremely doubt their making any contribution, because they have already made great sacrifices, and there is a considerable preslure upoi> the upper ranks in that country; anc) also, there being no established p^Nrate in the country, the case is entirely diQerent ftijxa that of a country where persons would, by such contribution, find themselves, relieved from a hea^ burthen which they actually pay. There is, no doubt, a pressure and a burthen arisinf^ from . the sufferings of the lower orders,^but there is not a large regular payment in tb» shap^ of a parochial rate. I never recollect so great a scarcity of labour and money among the labouring classes of all denominations. 328. If those ninety heads of families were removed, do yon conceive that it - would make any lasting reduction in the population of that neighbourhood, or would supplies of people come immediately from other places to nil tip the vacuum so created? — Those ninety heads of families, I apprehend, form a very small proportion of the population who araat pnesent in distress; if they were removed, and if there arose a comparative prosperity in the trade, there can be no doubt that the space created^by their removal would be instantaneously filled up. 329. By what class of persontr— ^Very possibly by some of the native inhabitants resorting to a new tr^e, becoming cotton weavers instead of following their present pursuits, which may not be profitable at the present lime, all occupations being in a very depressed condition ; but above fAl, the space w^'uld be instantaneously filled op by the resort of Irish to that part of the country. When I make this statement with respect to the Irish, I wish to guard myself in the most positive manner against bf icg supposed to express any opinion iiT disparagement of the Irish who come to our part of the country, because I must say that their conduct, generally speaWng, is good, and that the cquntry/has derived very great benefits from the labour they have afforded ; afr the same time that the excess of the influx of that population un- , doubtedly is a source of great calamity to us now, and is not a source, I am sorry to ' say, of advantage to 4bose poor people themselves. 330. Do you'find that in changing the habits of the original inhabitants of the country for the habits of the IHsh population, who under this supposifion would take the place of the original inhabitants, you make a satisfactory changer— I am sorry to say that within my memory there has unquestionably been a great deterioration of the character of our population ; I ascribe it partly to the manufacturing occupa- tion; and undoubtedly I do not think that the habits of many of the Irish that have come have been, advantageous to our n^ive population ; and in particular I would ttfke this opportunity of stating my regret tlmt they have sotfietimes brought with them, not only their labour, but the^r Dpligious animosities, which have been pro- ductive of considerable discomfort in the part of the country in which I live: I allude to a practice jii particular,' -< 333. .You ON EMIORAHON FHOM THE UNITED KINCJDOM: ila?. $i 'J33. You b>*e Mid that a poor-nle ion not eiUit in Scotland ; upon the failurt of voluntary contribution*, is not both personal and real property rateable for tlie relief of the poor ?— There can be no doubt thatr according tq the ancient law of Scotland, personal and real property ia rateable for the poor ; in different parts of the country a different practice- has arisen ; 1 believe, io very populous phices and in the border counties, a practice has ariaen not very dissimilar to the practice of Enjiland, namely, thnt a legal and compulsory assessment has been eitablish^ ; but in the part of the country to which I wish that my Evidence sh(Ml(l be considered to apply, we cannot be said to have uny compulsory relief for the poor; atjlve same time, that on many occasions the proprietors of lanc^ come forward in a very liberal manner with a voluntary contribution, in order to a Aid whi^t they apprehend would be the consequence, if refused, namely, that measures would be takes \q compel them to give extensive relief to the poor. ^ 334. Are you aware of the decision that . was come to in the barony parish in Glasgow, about the year 1 833, to give no Aid to any Irish r — I recollect that there was a case which was considered to be of great impoitance, about 'the period men* tioned, and I believe that the decision of the local authority, namely the heritors and kirk session of that parish, went to the refusal of relief to able-bodied persons saying that they could not obtain work sufficient to nmmiain them. 335. The case alluded to is a case between the heritdh of the barony parish and an Irishman of the name of Higgins; do you happen to remember the case ?^i be* lieve that is the cnse to which fadvert. . .^ ' * 336. .That decisi'' ■ was appealed from to the Court of Session 7—1 believe it was, 337. Do you remember the decision of the Court of Session upon that case f— Ply impression is, that the decision went to reverse the judgment of the local court, and to find that the personal and real property of that parish could be made liable in support of able-bodied persons suying they were in a~ state of destitution. 338. Whether they were Irish or natives, provided that, if they were Irish, they had by a continued residence of three years obtained a settlement f — Withput di»: - tinction, if each party had obtained a settlement according to the law of the country. 1 wish to stale, that the law of Scotland is, in my opinion, in an uncertain, but a^ the same lime in what I should term a very hazardous state; I believe that the decision of the Court of Session, to which I jia»e adverted, was 'considered to be a decision of so alarming a nature, that it has since been called in, question ; jind if I were to offer an opinion to the Committee, I should say that I have some doubt' whether that decision would he adhered to if the samp question come to be con- sidered on another occasion, although while I say so, I confess thot< I extremely dread |l)e ultimate establishment in ;he courts of law, of the principle laid down in the decision with respect to the barony parish of Glasgow. 339. As the law now stands, with the decisionvof-the CoiMofSesrfon to which '" you have alltided, and which as yet have noti>een reversed or appealed from, do you consider a pauper in Scotland, whether native Scotch, or Irish, having obtained a settlement, a beggar of charity, or a creditor on a fund of which tho kirk session and the,heritoi's are accountable trustees r — So far as my knowledge aud memory extend,/! believe that the balance of the decisions in the courts of Scotland w^t to establish the right of such a pauper ;' but I at Ihe same time wish to state, that if I were called upon, as a possessor of property in any parish, to pay under the law in supiiort of able-bodied men, I should unqueftionably resist Ihe application, and dSfti\d my&elf from ihe demand made upon my j^operty, because I consider that the sup*' pom of the able-bodied persons is contrary to the original intent of the law, «n^ ought not to be sustained in the courts of Ijii^.^^ - . ' ^40. You are aware that in England real property only is rateable for tM rtlief ofqhepoor? — I t|m. . • \i . Under the law of Scotland, is not personal property, wherever situated, ibley as well as real property, in aid of parochial burdens?— I beliele that «ome . strong deci8i9ns of the court have lieen giveo to tbe*^ffect '•( rendering. personal «rty liable, wherever situated ; but I am also aware that that part of ^le law of lla>:«i ia in a very unsettled state, and that important cases are now undef con- si vation nf the supreme court in Scotland. But as jst none of the decisiona of the Court ot Sesaion have been appealed or reversed, in the House of Lords ? — Not that I am aware of. ^Ji-^On what points do yon consider that the uncertainty in the law of Scotland >, ropectiDgthe laws aiffectill^ the poor?— My opinion is, (bat the original : or the- law was, tbiit the aged and innrm should aloue receive aid; that prin- |o H 3 cip! •i9«brtMi7, lit?. . I '4. '-# ..*••••• 6a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE T. F. Keniuif, «• Februtry, ciple hu been adbered to rigidly in some districts, in others it has been partially infringed upon or entirely lust sight of; and the great hnurd to which Scotland u subjected, is, ttmt the courts uf law nmy proceed to establish tlie principle of relief to all who say tliat they ore in wont. Trie uncertainty therefore which is the ground of alarm, is the (question, who " the poor" an — if the aged and infirm only, SroU land would be sale ; if all who are, and say they are, in want, then the danger if eitreuie, and that country will be visited by all the evils which are created b^ the Poor laws in England, and even more, as personal as well ai real property is liable. My opinion is, that tliere can be no safety but from legislative interference. With respect to the relations betweeiv Scotland and Ireland, I should wish to make one observation to the Committee. ** It appears to me that tlierals to a certain degree a hardsi)ip in the relative situations of the natives of Scotland and of Ireland, in any interchange that may take place between them ; an Irisliinun coming to Scot* land, receives a settlement in any parish in Scotland, as good as a native Scotchman possesses, by three ^ears. residence, provided, during that period, he lives by his own mdustry; whereas if a Scotchman goes to Ireland, he receives no settlement what- ever, there being no |>oor law in that country. Now, while I should be the last person to say any thing hostile to a free intercourse between Scotland and Ireland, whether or not any restraint could be imposed upon the extent to which the Irish resort to Scotland, by rendering the law of settlement somewhat more difficult, I am not prepared to say ; but I do think it is a point somewhat worthy of considera- tion, in order, if possible, to restrain the Irish from filling up any vacuum that might be created in the population in Scotland, and to check tlie evils of redundant popu- lation, which aiise solely from the resort of Irish to the district of which I speak. 344. In point of fact, there is no law of removal in Scotland ? — None whatever, provide H 4 364. Do H. H, Dmm m nmt, r..q. at FfbriMrjf 1117' If'. ' \\ 64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE HEl'OUE SELECT COMMITTEE I/. H. Drummoit^, «t February, Ils7- k M "\ Q64. Do you think that if wanes were to rite there, lo ■■ to pitce them in • better condition, Ihev would still resort to cminration, ratlier than avail IhemsclvM of such rise ot wogei?— 1 should lie inclined to think they would rather give up all idea of eminration, in those circumstances. 9(),5. Are you awnre of the harony parish rase that came before the Court of Session in the year 1834?— I have frequently heard the case mentioned. a66. Do you think that under that decision, an Irishman, having Kained a settle- ment in Scotland, though able-bodied, if he cannot find employment, has at tlie present momeitt a lefial claim on the poor fund of a parish in Scotland?— I have no idea that any able-bodied person, whether Irish or Scotch, has a legal claim for relief in Scotland. 367. Notwithstanding that decision?— I do not understand that that was the import of that decision. 3C8. Are you aware of what were the facts of the case which occurred with respect to the Ablwy parish in Paisley?— I understdod that an application was made in the ordinary course to the heritors of the parish and kirk seasion, b^ an Irish pauper, for relief ; the relief was refused him ; he then went by petition to the •herifl'; the sheriff aflirmcd the proceeding of the heritors and kirk session, and he then removed his case from the court of the sheriff into the Court of Seasion, and the Court of Session found that the sheriff had no jurisdiction to review tite pro- ceeding of the heritors and kirk session. 369. These words have been quoted as forming part of the decision of the Court of Session, in the case of The Burony Parish v. Higgins, " That a pauper in Scot- land is not a beggar of charity, bat a creditor of a fund, of which the kirk icsMon and the heritors are accountable trusteef." Would it appear^ to vou, from theie words, that that principle wai applicable to able-bodied paupers r— No, I ace nothing whatever affecting that question, m that decbion. 370. SuppoMog emigration to take place to any extent in the district with which you are acquainted, would not the effisct of that emigration, in your opinion, be to raise the price of labour ? — 1 should suppose so. 371. Do you not conceive that a rise in the price of labour would operate to induce an increased influx of people into the district in question ? — Unquestionably. 373. From what quarter do you conceive that influx of people would come? — Partly from the neighbouring parts of Scotland, and also from Ireland. 373. Supposing a system of euiigration to the colonies to take place from Scot- land, at a time when no such system of colonial emigration took place frorn Ireland, would not the inducement to the Irish to emigrate tu Scotland, be greater than it now is ? — Undoubtedly. 374. Is not the tendency of thp present system, in the district to which your evi- dence has reference, the substitution of an Irish population for the original Scotch population ? — I think it is. 375. Mas that of late very much augmented, in consequence of the facility of steam-boat navigation? — It has; the Irish come over, I believe, at from 4(/. to 6d. a head. ^ 276. In your part of the country, is the Irish population, of which you speak, ' a constantly moving population, oris it stationary? — Part of it is stationary ; but ' there is also a great part of it that is constantly coming and going. 377. Do you know whether there is any considerable proportion of that population which resides long enough within the parishes to gain a legal settlement by the law of Scotland? — In my immediate neighbourhood that hardly ever happens; but in the neighbourhood of Glasgow, I believe, it is common. 378. Then the injury which that Irish population does to you, is merely in lowering the rate of wages generally, and thereby throwing the native population upon the legal relief? — That is the way the evil operates, without considering the moral effects. 379. Do not you conceive that one of the great causea of the emigration of the 1 Irish to Scotland, is to be found in the misery and destitution in which they are placed in their own country ? — Certainly. 380. Do you nut also conceive that any unsettled state of things in that country, , which prevents the investment of capital in manufactures, tends to induce the popu- lation to go into a country where manufactures can be carried on advantageously f— Yes; and I know, from experience, that after there have been disturbances in Ireland, gthere is always an influx into Scotland. " 381. Are the Irish emigrants, of whom you have spoken, chiefly from the north - of Ireland ? — Chiefly from the north. ' ' •.•82. Arc ON EMIGRATION FROM Tfi£ UNITED KINCDOM : 1837. 65 aSs. Ara they C'«lholi« or I'roleiliuiU 7— i*«rtly both; I believe (here vo » great many CBlholici in the neighbourhood ol' (iliwow. 883. Arc ttiey chiefly weftveri ?— 'i'hey ore of all deicripti(jns. 984. Do not you conceive that the introduction ui the powur-luoni and tliu Scnt-ritl iinplication uf machinery to iiMnufacturet, ha* had aa Krcat un cllcct in ctcrioriitinjf tiie condition ol° the working clasMt in Scotland, ns ttic ciniuruiion from Ireland ; restricting the quettion of course to the firtt eticct of the inlrouuction of machinery, without referring to its ultimate tendency ?^ Willi regard to the price of lahour, I should suppose it hos ; but I do not think myself competent to amwer the whole question. 385. Have not you observed that the Irish who have gone into the manntacturing districU of Scotland, have been much more sUlionary, generally, than the Irish who have gone into the argricultural districts ? — I believe that is the case. a80. You have stated that the great body of the population in your part of the country who are desirous to emigrate, are operative weavers? — Entirely. 387. You were also understood to say, that the Petitioners were persons much accustomed to agricultural pursuits r — I safd that all of them were more or less accustomed to agricultural pursuits. a88. How do you reconcile those circumstances ? — They live in country villages, and each of them has a small piece of land that he cultivates. 989. Are not most of the native hand weavers of Scotland accustomed at tim ^ Iv work in argricultural labour ?— Those that I om best acquainted with are those that live in the country villages, I believe they are almoit entirely so ; but I an. not so well acquainted with the dense population of Glasgow. 990. During the hay and corn harvest, do not tb'^ almost always work in the jBeld ? — They certainly do. With regard to the poor's rate, I wish to make one observation. What I believe to be the great difference between the Scyitch and English system*, wr.h regard to the poor's rate, is this; that in Scotland the -kirk aessiok., v^'ho cf' espond to The churchwardens in England that have the distribution of the poor's mone^, an*^ the heritors who are the landowners of the parish, have a right to determme to \ at amount relief shall be given to those individuals who arc entitled by law u ifveive it. They have no right to say what description of persons are r -titled by law to relief, but they have a right to determine the amount to be given a ' . there is no jurisdiction in the sheriff or justices of the peace, or any subordint e jui -e or magis- trate of any description, to control the judgment those persons may pronounce with regard to the amount of the relief; but if they refuse altogether relief to a person who is entitled to it by law, that person may have a remedy by submitting the case to review in the Court of Session, which is the supreme court. 'i'i Ftbfuary, 1117. Sahbath 24* dit Februarii, 1827. Major "nomas Moody, called in ; and Examined. ; 201. YOU have lately been at Manchester r — I have. ag'2. Have you had an opportunity of inquiring, in detail, into the state of tlie pauper population in that part ? — ^To a certain exteqt I have, through the facilities that were given to me by the churchwardens, ancf 'y many proprietors of mills. 993. Have you received any statements as to '' ^ "MOunt of poor who are either wholly unemployed or only partially employed, auc receiving parochial assistance ? — Of those who are partially employed, and who are receiving parochial assistance, I got a statement in considerable detail. 394. To what district do your observations apply ? — To the township of Man- chester.. 395. Did you mt your information from the churchwardens and the parish officers, both of the township of Manchester and of Salford?— No, in the township of Man* Chester alone. 396. Will you state to the Committee the details you obtained? — The average number of persons relieved weekly in the township of Manchester consists of about ^•590 families, computed to be 14,680 persons, of whom about 6,738 are males, and about 7,95iz females, and of wbbm about 7,900 are ablq to work, if employment could be obtained. During the year 1836, the sum dbtributed to those persons n%8 40,500 /. It is neoettaiy to add, that during the latter part of the year, the dbtress 550* ^ I WW Major Thomai Mooi^, 34 Februvy, 1837. if 66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Major Thoma» Idoody. 34 February, its;' V.,,: was greatest, but this statement of annual expense is diffused over the whole period of twelve months. In order to compare it with what had beeii the amount in the years before, I beg leave to state that in the preceding year, 1 825, the sum distributed had only been 2,5,588/. 297. That refers to parochial distribution? — Yes. 298. Among how many persons was it distributed? — About 1,501 families, con- sisting, upon computation, of about 5,291 persons. In the year 1824, the sum distributed amongst the poor wa:: 21,158/, ; it was distributed among 4,755 persons^ In 1833, the sum distributed was only 19,748/. among 4,709 persons. It is ne- cessary to observe, that there is a great inequality in the number of persons that so received relief, in consequence of the distress falling at particular times ; but the sums will always give a correct idea of the measure of distress, better than the number of families. 299. Do you suppose that before 1823 the rates were in their ordinaiy state? — I suppose that must have been the case for three years or thereabouts. In 1833^ the expenditure for the poor was 20,866/. 300. Can you state what is considereJl| in the district, to have been the ordinary amount of poor rates ? — I cannot state that ; it would -appear from the statement given to me, that the average was about 33,000/. during the three years preceding the period of my visit. 301. Was the 40,500/. which was paid in 1826, exclusively raised in Manchester, or was part of it furnished by the London Committee ?^No part of it was furnished by the London Committeei as was stated to me. 302. Have you any, opportunity of knowing what contributions were made by the London Committee? — No, I have not. , 303. You stated, that in the year 1 826, this part of the fund was distributed to 7,900 persons who were able to work, had employment been found for them ; can you state what number of persons, sq situated, were out of work in former years? — No, I cannot. When I say that they were able to work, if employment had been found for them, I mean that they were partially employed ; I do not mean to say that thtiy were out of work from Jannary to December, but they were only partially employed, which led to the necessity of parochial relief being afforded to them at certain periods of the year. 304. Can you state what was the parochial rate per pound on the actual rent in Manchester, in the year 1 826 ? — I have not got that ; I have only the total sums. 305. Supposing a man, a woman, and three children, to be unemployed, what is the. expense per week at which their subsistence is to be estimated ?-^A man em^ ployed as a weaver, with a wife and thr^ children, should earn in net money, 2s. 6d. per day, or i5«. per- week, to qnable him to provide for himself and his family without subsistence from the parish rates, supposing his expenses of living to con- tinue at the scale which they were once at, that scale being as follows ; house rent, 2.f. a week; clothes, 2s. 6d. a week; wheat flour, and oatmeal, 3J. 6 he was not getting perhaps Tkoma a Moo^.^ above 4«. 6d. or 6*. a week, and it was the sum between that 4s. 6d, or 6*. "^ "^ a week and los. that he applied for, taking into consideration what his family might ** ^fk^*^' earn. 311. Yon mean, that a weaver in the receipt of five or six shillings a week would be considered by the parish officers as entitled to four or five shillings in addition ?— If the particular circumstances of the case justified it, with respect to his family. ' 31 3. Do you then state it to the Committee as your belief, that there is no weaver earning only 6s. a week, having a wife and three children, who is not receiving 4*. a week from the parish ?— No, I cannot say tluit ; I only speak to what I observed to be the rule. 313. On the other hand, are you not of opinion that there are many weavers who are earning no more than 6«. a week, with a wife and three children, who are not receiving any thing from the parish? — There may be many, who are Irish, and who have not settlements. i , 314. With respect to the Irish weavers, do they receive parochial relief of any kind?' — In cose of great distress only. 315. When the rate of wages falls so low that the weaver cannot earn more than ' four or five shillings a week, how does the Irish weaver manage to support himself, iiis wife, and his children? — They are reduced to a scale of subsistence equal to their salary. Such a scale as will meet the sum of 7«. 6d. per week may be thus explained, as stated to me : in that case, the house rent will be i«. 6d.^ clothes, 6d.; wheat, flour and oatmeal, but a great proportion of it being oatmeal, amounted to 2s. ; bacon and butcher's meat, of which the greater part is bacon, 1 s. ; coffee, tea and sugar, 1 a. ; coal and candle, 6d. ; beer, given up. In the former case, is. a week was expended in beer. I beg to observe that my object was to see, in case of { distress what article was particularly diminished in the consumption. 316. Does that rate of subsistence afford sufficient nourishment for a family, to keep them in good health ?— It is higher than the rate at which they are supported in the poor house, of which I have got the estimate. 317. Are you now talking of the hand-loom weavers?— I am speaking ci ' hand-loom weaving, combined with machinery, by which, for example, his web is dressed, &c. 318. You have stated, that there were 7,900 persons able to work, either without r • work or only partially employed ; supposing one-half of those persons to be taken away, would there be fiiU employment for the remainder? — Among the hand-loom - *\ weavers, who have not the aid of machinery, I do not think wages would rise, or that employment would soon be found. 319. Do you think, supposing two-thirds had been abstracted, that there would have been employment for the remainder? — I could not say with certainty, as my knowledge of the statistics of the town does not comprehend exactly the number ' employed as hand-loom weavers merely. 330. Can you state what proportion of the subsistence of those persons was supplied by their Qwn partial employment, and what proportion was paid from the parish rates ? — No, I cannot 331. Supposing them to have had no employment at all, an abstraction of the whole number of> 7,900 wo,Dld have left the working population in that district with employment sufficient for their maintenance without coming upon the parish rates? — I should suppose so; but that question involves anothier, which would be the demand for their labour from thie sale of the articles raised. 332. Can you say what proportion of the 40,500/. you have mentioned, was expended upon the 7,900 able-bodied men who were partially employed ?-~No. 333. Can you tell what proportion of the 7,900 able-bodied meil^had settlements, tnd what portion of them were casual poor? — I cannot. 324. Do you conceive th?.t the difficulty of finding employment, which at present prevails, arises to any considerable extent from the mtroducUon of the power-loom mto that neighbourhood ?— Decidedly it is one cause. 335- It is a principal cause? — It is, but the want of demand must be an equaQy powerful causet 326. Are Um Committee to underatand that in your opinion the introduction of the power-loom wu a principal cause, and that that was very much increased and aggravated by the geaeral want of demand in the trade?— That is the idea I wish .to express. 55«» I a 327. You m' 68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Major Thomat Moodf. ^ ^^ -J 94 February, i8b7. 327. You are not able to state to the Committee what proportion of the evil you conceive to arise from the introduction of the power-loom? — No, I could not state that with accuracy ; I conceive that information could be got from estimatin^^ the quantity of work which is done by the power-loom, as con)pared by the quantity of work done by the hand-loom, 338. Can you state in what proportion the introduction of the power-loom re- duces the number of hands employed ? — No, I could not state the exact proportion, but it is considerable. 329. How long has this intense distress prevailed in that neighbourhood P^- I should suppose within six months may be the period of the greatest intensity of the distress. It was considered to be wearing away when I was there. 330. Did it begin only six months ago ? — I could not speak to that ; from the paper given to me it appeared that the distress was more in the latter period of tne year ; and dividing the year into periods of six months, I suppose the six last months was the period in which the distress was most intense. 331. But it was wearing away when you left? — It was, they having removed a great number of the people so causing the distress. 332. How did they remove them? — By paying them money to go to their parishes. 333. To what extent was that done? — In i8a6 the number of individuals re- moved was 4,029, in 1825 the number of individuals removed was 698, in 1824 it was 610; and it appears that in the year 1818 there had been a period of distress, and during that year 1,177 were removed, still it was very far short of the distress in 1826, as diffused over the whole year. 334. Can you state in what proportion there was an influx of population into those districts in the. preceding year? — No, I cannot 335. The year before this great distress, were not the manufacturers in that district in a state of great prosperity ? — Very great ; by prosperity, I mean that there was a great demand for labour. 336. Was there not a great influx of population into the district, from the sur- rounding country ? — I am not aware whether the prosperity arose by augmentation of wages, in consequence of a demand for goods, or by the increase of labourers being less than the demand for labour. I am not informed as to the influx of popu- Jation from the country. ' 337. Were there not a great many new factories built? — Not many actually filled with machinery, as I was told ; but not being resident in Manchester, I cannot speak positively. 338. The question refers to the two years preceding the commencement of the distress ? — I understood there were not many built and filled with machinery ; two or three might have been laid out, and built, or perhaps more ; I cannot speak posi- tively, as I am not a resident in Manchester. 339.. But the trade was considered to be in full employment? — It was, in those years preceding the distress; it was considered that there was full employment for every body. 340. Is not it now considered that there was at tiiat period a good deal of what is called over-trading?— -The opinion is, that they bad over calculated the demand in the .narket for their goods. 341. Having lately visited Lancashire, with the view of inquiring into the causes of the present distress there, did you ask any questions relative to the increased Idcility of communication with Ireland ? — Yes ; but my object in visiting Lancashire was not entirely that stated in the question. 3^ '. What IS the present cost of a palhage between Dublin and Liverpool ? — I did not ask the question as to the exact price ; but I understood it was a very low sum. 343. Considering the facility of 4hat communication, and the fact, which is nott^ious, of there being a surplus population in Ireland, have you any doubt, if a portion of the present distressed weavers were removed fix)m Manchester, and wages rose either from an increase of demand for the manufacturers or a diminished supply of labour, that an immediate influx of Irish hands would take place? — I think it is extremely probable. 344. Have you any doubt it would be the case? — None whatever. 345. Would those persons, so introduced, have a legal claim upon the poor rates of Manchester ? — No, I apprehend, not to the same extent as parish poor. 34G. , Therefore the charge upon the poor rates would not be increased in con- sequence of such introduction?— -Certainly not to any very great extent. ho/'", • i 347. If ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 69 347. If those persons were utterly destitute, would they not be entitled to relief «s casual poor, and must they not be removed at the expense of the parish ? — It would be, a matter of individual benevolence so far as efficient relief would be applied to them ; the removal of them by the parish would be a matter of necessity, as I apprehend. 348. Are you able to inform the Committee at what expense the Irish paupers iirerf/ removed? — They gave them 6j. 3-! believe it is as small a sum as that, when they lay in their own bag of potatoes or subsistence for the passage. 352. When money was furnished to send them away from Manchester, do you know where they were sent to ? — I do not ; I suppose they went to Ireland, or to wherever there was likely to be a demand for^heir labour in England. 353. Do you know whether they were relieved at all before being sent away ? — Yes, that 6«. 3»eing so neerly the same, and the cost of the manufacture being so much less by the power-loom than bjr viie hand loom, is it Jour opinion that hand-loom weaving must very soon cease in this country ?— ^ think it is a fair interence, that mere cottage hand-loom weaving must give way (0 the cheaper manufacture by machinery. 365. And that speedily ? — I could not say speedily, because, where wages tre very low, Tsaw a manufactory where one kind of hand-loom weaving was ^opted in preference to machinery alone. 366. Are you aware of the tax existing on common prmts? — Yes. 367. That tax is levied when a plain web goes to the printfield ?— Yes, I beliem it is. . 368. The only work which the power-loom cannot now drodoce equally with the band loom, is a variegated pattern ? — Yes, there is a difficulty hi that. 369. Can you state at what rate of wagesyou suppose a hand-loom weaver could successfully enter into competition with a power-loom weaver ? — F could not, but I think he could not possibly compete with him finally. 370. At no rate of wages ; not even at 5 ». or 6*. a week ? — ^That would be siich a deterioration of his condition that I could scarcely suppose an English labourer to coAipete under these circumstances ; he would have to give up bis clutbing, and diminish his subsistence. 371. Yon stated one case, where you knew of « manufacturer that employei*' a great number oi hand-loom weavers, although he had the means of )nstitui.iig machinery ? — That is to say, part of the manufactory consisted of machinery, Bfiid part of it of hand-loom weaving ; but it was not wbi>t is called the cottage system, It was hand-loom weaving in a manufactory, where thts dressing and preparation of the web was i)one by machinery, and tlie nvaver had nothing to do bvit lo tit down and drive his shuttle ; there h^u'Ofie c better tind cf clotb,«Bd got Bouiewlnt " " er ■ 1 4 Societies Major. Thomai Moody. •4 February, 1837. •»a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Major TiotHdfMooy. 2+ February, Sorieiies for the Refuge of the Dest'. e, and for the prevention of pauperism, &c. ;. suJ i.liaritable societies have for their object to relieve foreigners in distress. I think it was in an American paper of last September, in the Alban^^ Advertiser, that there was a corplaint of New York sending up Irish emigrants in the steam- biiats irom New Yo i ; in order to get rid of them, they sent them up to Albany, and the people in ;Vibany nut having employment for them at that season of the year, felt it a very gr« at inconvenience, and they spoke of it as a matter of complaint thui. the people of Neu- York should send that class of people to them. 388. Do you thin.'v yourself authorized, from the information you have obtained,^ in giving an opinion as to the effect of a desultory emigration of unprovided Scotch or English emigrants into 'ifierent parts of the United States? — I should say it woulo ) e very injurious to the indivitfuals ; a few hundred, 01' ^'vrbitpi! a few thousand people might be ai^jurbed, and might find their way ti.islty pe'^iiip:; dmopers, beUiro tb'j; got there they vtould suiti^r a greal deal of misery. 389. Ar:' you aware that in the years 182a and i^'Kit P>wt to thj pas-uu of the Passenger's Act, the voluntary enr.g'ant: from Ij<;aai! nw >'.gv' 0,300 u. nually ? — I dare say they did, buv not aW to th< Uniteii Siates. 390. Were not thc'<^orbed by /he demand for kbour in the United States? — Many of them -.vonld be, bi can.< i)| calculate upon the same emp! >ymentin olhf^r years ai tbeit:: was in those 'J'P.ats, 391. Is there not a great canal now cutting, at the expf;'r.3« '^f the Amii^rican goserament?- Tho greai cunal that I know, i. nov finished. < j(}2. Is there not a can^tl now contemplate- portion to the population, were, as crimi'.ials, more numerous than tlie whites. 401. Do you know wiiether the state of the Irish who are in the United States it not the most miserable, and whether they are not the most wretched part of the population ? — Decidedly so, except the free black population in New York, ac- cording to the statements of Americans. 403. Have you ever heard of distress existing in any part of the manufacturing districts of the United States, similar to that which has pervaded the manufacturing districts in England ? — I have not 403. Is the manufacture of cotton increasing in the United States ?— Yes, par- ticularly q{ the lower quality of goods. 404. Is there a demand for band-loom weaveis there? — I should suppose there is, to a certain extent. 405. Are there any power-looms there ?— Yes. 406. Would there be a demand for power-loom weavers there ? — Certaiajy. 407. Have you any means of comparing the rate of wages obtained by' weavers ip this country, with ilio rate of wages obtained in the United States ? — No, I have not, so as to speak with accuracy. 408. Would not it be as expensive for an inhabitant of the New £n<(land States t» transport himself to the Ohio, where the new lands are tscttling, as to transport a person from England or from Ireland to Upper Canada ?— -I think it woald be much more expensive for an American emigrant, from Massachusetts, to remove himself to the Ohio, than for an Irishman to be landed in Upper Canada ; \i would be cheaper to get to the Ohio from Dublin, by the Saint Lawrence al^A Upper Canada, than it would be to go b/ any part of the United States seaports. 409. Are you aware that the State of New York, and most of the New England States, have a law which prohibits passengers to be landed in their states without security being given by the captain, that they shall not come upon the parish ? — Yes, there is; that they shall not be chargeable, I think, for a year and a d"y in New York. 410. Do you know if there is any preference given in the United States to any fttirticular class of British subjects, more than to others ? — I think there is a partiality shown to the Scotch generally, by those to whom I spoke. M^or Tkumat Moodf. . I 34 February, ■ •■17. Martis, 27* die Februarii, 1827. | ,f >• . The Rev. John MaUkias Turner, called in ; and Examined. , 411. YOU are the rector of Wilmslowe, in Cheshire ? — I am. 41 2. That parish is within twelve miles of Manchester? — It is. 41 3. Is it a populous parish ? — It contains about 4,000 inhabitants. 414. Are the poor-rates high? — They have been very low, but we have doubled tbem within the last year. 415. What is the principal cause to which you attribute the increase of the poor- rates? — ^The want of employment in both branches of manufacture; the weaving, which is our staple manufacture, and the cotton spinning, which employs a portion of our populntion. 416. Do you opke any distinction between those two branches; is the one suffer- ing more than the other? — I think the weaver has suffered more uniformly. 417. Can you supply the Committee with any details respecting \be increase of parochial expense in the last two years? — Broadly I should state, that our poor-rates, which were in 'a very wholesome state in the beginning of tlie year, not amounting to more than half-a-crown in the poundt have become five shillings upon the rack-rent. 41 8* Are tjjere in your parish any paupers whom you consider as entirely unem- ployed?— The spinners have been entirely unemployed; alid the weavers for about SIX weeks of the year w^re totally without employment 419. What is the mode pursued with respect to the unemployed persons? — la the months of May and June we obtained assistance from the London Committee, and administered relief in the first instance by the direct supply of their wants, after- wards as a reward for labour. I should state to the Committee, that although in Sfiaomt our podr-ratoft are v6ry lo#, compared liFith the agticiihunl district^ yet 550, . K we The Rev. J. M. Turner. 27 February, 1827. 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Th» Riiv. J, M. Turntr. 97 February, .V -K we are acting upon a principle which must of ncccMity extend our poor-ratea ; ancf as we have doubled in one year, I see no hindrance in the way of our doubling in another year, or even within a shorter period. 430. What principle do you allude to as Ihe principle now acted upon 7— The principle of making up the deficiency, or the alleged deficiency of wages, out of the poor-rates. 431. Are you of opinion that the poor-rates of that parish would be materially relieved by the removal of any of those parties, provided they emigrated with their own consent? — It would enable us to ofTer to the weavers, who are now more par-' ticularly the objects of our .slicitude, means of support ; they come to us now, desiring to have the deficiency of their wag^s made up, and we are obliged to corn* ply with the request, because we know that the wages are insufficient, and we have no means of giving them employment ; I look to a well regulated- system of Flmi- gration as likely to supply us with those means which we feel daily the want of. 4'J2. In what sense do you consider it to supply those means? — I should imagine that upon a weaver applying for our assistance to make out his wages, if, instead of giving him the small sum he appears to require, we were able to say. We can find you a mode of occupation by which your family will bo supported, that that would be a sufficient answer to him. If the select vestry saw that they should relieve themselves from the burthen of a family, of which burthen they can never calculate the extent, because probably the families will become permanently chargeable, they would be satisfied to make such exertion. 433. You will understand that the questions that are asked upon this subject, with respect to your parish, are put upon the supposition that an Act of Parliament were passed, relieving the parish permanently from the party who may be assisted to Emigrate ? — With that understanding, I should say that a very considerable pecuniary exertion would be made on the part of the parish. 424. What is the average extent of assistance which at the present moment is given to weavers whose wages are not sufficient to suppoit their families, and on what principle is that relief given ? — There is an understanding, and I may say the principle is recognised, that half-a-crown a head for a family is necessary for their support, consequently a family of six persons should be receiving 15*. a week; if they do not receive 15«. a week for their wages as weavers, they consider that thiU sum should be made up to them out of the poor-rates ; this is virtually the principle acted on, and I believe not only in our parish, but in many of the large township* near Manchester. 42j. Is that the principle on which relief is generally administered in that parish?— It is the principle which has been recently acted on, and is virtually the principle by which all the committees are guided. 426. How long has the hand-loom weaving bten introduced in your (itruh? — I cannot speak with great certainty, but, I should think, for thirty ^eara it has been the standard occupation of our people, and it has been an occupation in which they have engaged without any limitation but the size of their families, for they had as much work as the loom!) they set up would enable them to furnish. 427. Has not the invention of the power-loom super-ruded the use of those hand looms ? — Undoubtedly ; it would have superseded them much more rapidly than it has done, if the hand-loom weaver were not enabled to submit to a reduction of wages, for the reasons I have stated. 428. But in so submitting, he has accepted wages which are insufficient (o support him, and he looks to parochial contribution for the remainder of his support? — Yes; and, in fact, the competition between the band iouin and the power-loom is main- tained out of the poor-rates. (^ 439. With reference to all these circumstances combined, are you of opinion that the subtraction of a certain number of families from the parish altogether would be attended with an economy, which would 'induce the parish, under CSrtain circum- stances, to contribute to their removal ? — I am of that opinion. 430. For example, you have stated that every family, admitting that they were out of emp%ment during the whole year, could not be estimateid at less than half- a-crown per head; consequently a family, of a man, a woman, and three cbildren, must be estimated at 12«. 6d. per week, which would amount to 3a/. lo«. per ann. supposing the fafliily to be exclusively supported by the parish during that period ; are you of opinion that the parish would consent to charge their rates with an annuity of 6/. lOJ. per annum for ten years, supposing an Act of Parliament were passed, giving the power of making such an arrangement, upon which annuity they could «>' raise ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 75 rtiM the sum of 50/. to be advanced for the purpow of emif^ration of cMch family ; it being understood that the weaver, from a full knowledge of the new circumMtonces in which he was to be placed upon his emigration, was deniroiis of taking advantage of it i — I am induced to form a very strong opinion that the piirittli would come forward liberally, because I happen to know that in a rase where the emigration was only the moving to Scotland with certahi silk machinerjr, it was considered an excellent bargain, though a sum little short of 30/. was laid down to oet rid of a family of, I believe, five persons, and with a daily liability to their return. 431. Are you of opinion that in such case the parish would prefer to charge their poor-rates for ten years with an annuity of 61. io«. rather tban raise tlie 50/. at once ? — Certainly, I think so ; but a provision roust be made to enable them to do sa Every one that is conversant with the management of parochial business, knows that they would prefer the system of annuity to any present eflbrt. 439. You think, therefore, if their minds were satisfied that the weaver would receive advantages, with respect to his emigration, sufficient to place him in a situa- tion of independence and comfort, that they would not hesitate to charge their rat**} with a sum to that amount, which would of course involve the certainty of their being obliged to pay that sum for the period of ten years ; whereas if trade were to revive very extensively, those parties might not be chargeable upon the poor-rates for such a period ?— My opinion is, that they would be disposed to act upon the principle now laid down, within certain limits ; I do not think they would be ready to send off all their applicants, but that for such a proportion of them as would not caute a very striking and alarming difference in the immediate amount of poor-rate, they would gladly avail themselves of it 433. Do you suppose that in any instance a family of five persons receiving partial assistance through the year, does not entail upon the parish greater expeiue than 6/. los.i — I should conceive that, averaging the families, they would entail as great an expense as that; but I imagine the mode in which the question would be put amongst us, would be prospectively ; our case now is, that we are obliged to make out the deficiency of the hand-loom weavers wages, and that will be .an in- creasing deficiency, because of course the master weaver finding that the hand-loom. M-eaver is ready to submit to a reduction of wages, will carry on that reduction ; there is no reason why it should stop at seven shillings a week, there is no assign- able limit to the reduction, because I conceive that the principle being established, that the deficiency, be it what it may, shall be made up out of the poor-rate, we have nothing to look to as a barrier to the extension of it. 434. Has any doubt ever arisen, whether the making up their deficiency is au- thorized by any existing law ? — The doubt has frequently been started, but the cases are commonly of sucli utter destitution, an appeal is made to the feelings of the select vestries, which is seldom or never rejected. 435. If the deficiency is made up in that way, is it not your opinion that the wages will be forced down by that very operation ? — Clearly, I think its necessary eflfect must be that; I would hardly use so strong a word as that of forcing the wages down, but I think that the matter is put in train, so that the wages will be of necessity reduced, because there is no barrier against such a reduction. 436. Have you not beard that that has been the precise operation in various parts of the county of Lancaster ? — I have. 437. Do you imagine that the effect of removing a certain limited number of families by emigration, would be to diminish the extent of assistance given by the , pariah in aid of the wages to the remaining hand-loom weavers? — I conceive that I the relief would b^effected in this manner, viz. that the industry of the hand-loom I weaver must of necessity be transferred into some other channel, who has lost his loccupation through the introduction of the power-loom. 438. Is it uafierstood that there are particular processes of band-loom weaving which as yet it has not been found pnacticahle to imitate with the power-loom t — ^^ ' am quite aware that such is the case ; but I am of opinion that as great difficulties, bave been surmounted in the application of pov.er-loom weaving, that tjioie which Fyet reuain will be, by the ingenuity which is now devoted to the subject, in a short f time sunnounted also, and that the whole business of weaving will bOkCarried on by the ppwer-loom exclusively. The benefit that I should expecM'rom emigration I would be, that it would enable the hand-loom weaver to transfer his industry into a ' new channel, wbidt channel it is the object of this Committee^ I uoderstaod, to [provide. .. ^ 550^ K 3 439' In ! Th« K«v. J. M. Tnrnir. •ij FVbnury, Its;. Th« Riv, J. M. Tunur. Vf Ftbruary, 7« MINUTES OP EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMIIITTBE • 439. In the peculiar circomstancCT of the parish of Wilnu' «, wliat benefit do you expect will accrue to the parishioners, from the abstractiui; jf a certain number of fanjilies by emigration, in diminution of the preseni poor-rates ?— I conceive that if in the first instance the outlay be smaller, which according to the calcolatioM which have teen stated will be the case, the gain will be the difference between that outlay and the cost of such a family in the anticipated case of their being chargeable for the whole year. 440. Would nut the removal of one pauper family tend to facilitate the introduce tion of another?— I have no apprehension that it would. 441. Do you not imagine erhapg, not amounting tu 4»aoo. 481. Of those 800 faniiliet, how many are chargeable to the poor-rate? — Up to the beginning of the last year the proportion that was chargeable to tlie poor-rates was very small, hut in the course of last year I conceive that the number has been trebled ; the Committee are aware that I cannot speak tu that with precision, at tlie accounts are not made up till Easter. I should conceive that the actual pensioners have not been very considerably it^creased ; but of the persona that receive what is called casual relief, that is, relief in the shape of rent or assistance in any way, the number cannot have been less than treble in the course of the year. 48:]. Oi the Sou families, how many do you believe have received, in one form or other, and at one time or other, relief, within the course of last year?— I should conceive that one-fifth of the whole population may have received relief. 483. Do you mean not above 130 families ? — About that. 484. Db any families receive relief, who have not a legal settlement in the parish ' —I think the cases of such relief are very few ; I imagine that they last only so long as till the overseer is able to get points settled that are under discussion, if it is a point under discussion. 485. Can you say whether the rent of cottages, which you say is paid out of the poor-rates, is ever paid for persons that have not a legal settlement? — I should think, never. 486. Of the total number of families that receive relief, what number do you think receive it permanently ? — I am not prepared to give a specific answer ; with regard to the present year, we have had a great many who have received relief continuously. 487. How long have they received relief? — It was in the beginning of May that the distress began to be felt heavily with us, and though the means of employment' returned partially in June, and almost wholly in July, the habit had been established with many of them, and we have not got rid of them. 4R8. Can you state, with regard to the time you have mentioned since May, what number have received relief continuously ? — Our parish is divided into four town- ships, and the townships are managed with very different degrees of attention ; con- sequently, the same answer will not apply to each township. 489. The townships are managed separately ?' — They are. 490. Are they all managed by select vestries ? — Three out of the four are. 491. Are they appointed by a local Act, or under the general Select Vestry Act? — Under the general Select Vestry Act 492. How is the fourth township managed ? — It is a very small township, imd it is managed by the overseers, without the assistance of a select vestry. 493. Of bow maiw do the select vestries conjist? — I believe, in all cases, of the statutable number, in or 18. 494. Are there any appeals from the decisions of the vestry ? — Appeals are rare. 495. Have they occurred? — ^They have; I should rather call them complaints than appeals ; complaints have been brought before magistrates, and a great degree of atteniion has been given to them, and they have been settled without any reference to the quarter sessions. 496. Have the magistrates shown a disposition to overrule the decisions of the select vestries?— I think the magistrates are very desirous to concur with the sel^t. vestries. 497. Are tlio cottages rated to the poor-rates ? — They arc, 498. Do I UN EMJORATION FROM IHE UNITED KINGDOM: 1847. 79 498. Do th«y MY the ram r-^TlMM ia a\wy» h list twnd«d fn of penons who, in tiM Jucigment of tM oveneen, are unable to p«y th« rate ; and that liat haa been very much incrraied in the latt year. 499. If a cottage is inhabited by a pauper, it any rate paid for it at all P- ion. 509. Do you suppose that the number necessat-y to be subtracted for the purpose of raisinj^ tlie wages, would be so great that no plan of emigration would reach it? — No plan of emigration of which I nave ever seen an outline, would appear to me to reach to the extent anticipated. 510. When you stated that you conceived that the rate of wages depended upoD' the competition between the two trades, you did not mean to say that if a sufficient number of labourers could be subtracted, the rate of wages would not rise ? — Of course it would ; but it appears to me that they will never rise in the hand-loom trade, because it is an inferior machine, and will never be resorted to. 511. To the best of ;^our knowledge, independently of weaving, are all the other channels of productive industry in your neighbourhood full ? — 1 hey are ; I would scarcely say full ; I am no farmer, but I have heard it stated by a very skilful farmer, that most of our farms are underhanded, that it would be a profitable appli- cation of capital to employ an additional number of bands in agriculture^ but our farms are small, and the pressure of the poor-rates has had the contrary effect, and the consequence is, that the agricultural labourer is almost as much dutressed as the weaver. 51a. Would not increasing the size of the farms, so far from increuing the number of labourers, be the most certain and direct means of decreasing that num- ber ? — I am not of that opinion. 513. It has been stated by a former witness, that a very considerable Jtumber of labourers have been forcibly removed from Manchester and its neighbourhood in the last year; have there been many persons so removed from your neighbourhood? — We removed in the months of May and June all that we could. 514. To what amount do you suppose that took place?— They were not very numerous, from the causes I have stated, that most of our manufacturing labourers 550. K4 have TIm Rvr. J. M. T»n*r. S7 r«bfiMif5, ila7. 8o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Tht Rev. J, M, TurHcr, V] Febfuary, 1837. have settlements ; the proportion is more than usually large of those that have settlements. 5 1 5. But there were a certain number removed ? — Yes. 516. Supposing the circumsUnoes of the trade in your part of the country were to become more favourable, do you conceive that that would make room for a fresh infli-x of people? — I have not anticipated any improvement so rapid as to require a ft.T^\fX supply than our own population would furnish. 517. Do you suppose that no fresh influx of people took place in the years 1 824 and 1825, when the manufactures were in a great state of activity ? — The influx to the towns was very considerable ; to the villages by no means so ; in fact the tide flowed from the villages to the towns. 518. Arts you of opinion that the influx into the towns, of fresh labourers, pro- duces no competition with the labourers in the villages ? — I consider that the state of the manufacturing interests, at the period referred to, was a very anomalous state ; it was a state produced by many artificial causes, and I imagine that any remarks applicable to that period would not be generally applicable. 519. Judging from what has passed, if a demand from whatever cause did arise, so as to give a greater activity to the manufacture than now exists, would not that circumstance make room for a great influx of the pop : ^tion ? — Clearly. 530. In the event of a periwl of distress again recurring, or difficulty in the em- ployment of labourers, in what situation would those persons be again placed ? — I iive^ine that those who had not a legal settlement would be treated as they have been treated in the last eighteen months ; those that had a settlement would of course fall, as they have now fallen, upon the poor-rates. 521. Do you not think there would be an indisposition upon the part of the parish to allow fresh persons to obtain legal settlements ? — Clearly ; we are aware that such indisposition exists in all cases. 522. After the experience of last year, are you not of opinion that every means will be taken to prevent legal settlements being gained ? — I conceive the most scru- pulous jealousy will be exercised. ^ 523. What are the means which you expect will be used to prevent settlements being gained ? — ^Taking care that the tenements are under the value of 10/. 524. Can you prevent persons from taking apprentices ? — We cannot. ■ . 525. You have stated, that ifa certain number of families were provided for by emigration, it would "nd to diminish the poor-rates; you have also stated, that you think that no landlord who has a cottage would suffer it to be either pulled down or to remain vacant, and that it is decidedly the interest of such landlord to let it to a pauper rather than to a person that is not a pauper ; will you state^ under those circumstances, in what way you think that the providing ^ir a certain number of families by emigration pould lead to a diminution of the poor-rates ? — I think I have not stated that it is for the interest of the landlord that his tenant should be a pauper, but that he should be a person having a legal settlement, whether a pauper or not. 526. Will you state in what way you think the emigration of a certain number of families would be likely to lead to a reduction of the poor-rate? — It appears to me that our case at the present is this ; a weaver comes to us with three children, he says, that he is unable to support himself, and accordingly we make him an allowance ; he comes the week following, and says that he is expecting a further reduction of wages ; we see no limit to this, 6nd in anticif«ation of the consequences, we are ready to make a considerable effort, provided it be well understood that that effort shall be a beneficial one. - 527. How is it to be beneficial? — If you require from us a less actual outlay than ve expect a family will cost us during the year. 528. You have stated that you think the emigration of a certain number of families would tend to diminish the total charge upon tlm parish; in order to prove that, you must show that the places of those that were withdrawn would not be supplied by others equally chargeable ; will you state how you consider the relief would occur ?'— It appears to me that the relief would occur by persons being removed that have a legal settlement, upon tiie expectation that their places would be supplied, if supplied at all, by persons not having a legal settlement. 529. Is not the master manufacturer more interested in multiplying the number of labourers, than he is in keeping down the poor-rate ?— Undoubtedly be is. ' 530. If that parish, having relieved itself in the first in ^ance from its super- abundant pc^ulaition, were theii to decide that they would give no relief to any man •c;(ce^)t ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : 1827. 81 «xcq>t he were wholly employed by the parish, would not that defeat the object of the master manufacturers, whose interest it is to keep down the price of wages by crowding the iiarish with a redundant population ? — Such a regulation as that would lie highly desirable, that in no case should they mtike up the deficiency of wages, but that relief should be given only in return for employment. -531. Have the magistrates ever interfered to prevent this custom of paying wages out of the poor ratesr — Never, in any instance that has come to my knowledge. ' 532. You have stated that the average rate of relief combined with wages, is half-a-crown a head ; therefore a man and his wife and three children would receive 12s. 6 d. a. week, partly in wages and partly out of the poor rates?— Yes. 533> What is the average rate of wages of agricultural labour in your parish?— The usual rate of a farm servant is 6 #. a week, with his board for six days, or from is. 3d. to 2s. a day; a very good labourer can earn 2s. ; but a great proportion of our agricultural labour is performed by piece-work. 534. Do persons employed at piece-work gain more than 13«. a week? — No, I imagine that as. is a fair return for the labour of a skilful band. 535. Then the manufacturer that gets part of bis wages out of the poor rate and part from his labour, is better paii^^tban the day-labourer that is maintained entirely by his own labour? — He would be, according to the scale stated. 536. The object of the emigration would be to relieve the hand-loom weavers? — ^That is the specific object I have in view with regard to my own parish. 537. Does the practice of assisting the wages of the artisan take place in any other trade than that of hand-loom weaving ? — During the period of difficulty it was the practice to work what is called short time, that is, the nominal wages being kept at the rate at which they were before the difficulty commenced ; the time during which the persons received employment was lessened, either by the subtraction of a portion of each day, or by the omission of some days in the week ; that was considered a fair ground of appeal for the assistance of the select vestry. The man said, My nominal wages are 15<. a week, but I have worked only three days, consequently I have earned only "js. 6d., and therefore you must make it up. 538. Are you of opinion, with reference to the practice of gaining settlements in former times, that more power will be found of resisting the introduction of fresh parishioners, or the contrary? — I have contemplated that the relief afforded would be greater than the evil which would occur on the other side. 539. You have stated that the relief of the hand-loom weavers will press more and more upon your parish ; that as long as you continue to make up the deficiency to tliose persons in the amount of wages they receive to what is necessary for their aubsistence, there will be a tendency m the mannfacturers to decrease the amount of wages they pay to them ? — I think so. ,540. Therefore you are of opinion that those hand-loom weavers being removed, they cannot be succeeded by other hand-loom weavers, for their trade will be destroyed, or by any other class of men who will press so heavily upon the parish; is not that what you anticipate? — ^That is what I anticipate. 541. And therefore it is your wish to remove those hand-loom weavers? — Con- sidering theirs to be a case of such difficulty and hardship that it is. not likely that the circumstances under wliich they are placed will be revived with respect to any other class of men. 542. You stated that some strangers had lately come to your parish, seeking labour? — ^They have. 543. What had been the employment of those persons ? — We are only seven miles from Macclesfield ; perhaps the Committee are aware that advertisements were scattered very widely in the beginning of last year, announcing a demand for 5,000 weavers, and the consequence was, that there was a gathering of every person that could handle a shuttle, from every part of the kingdom, to our neigh- bourhood. 544. Do you not think that there are a great many persons who employ hand- loom weavers, from ^heir incapacity to become proprietors of power-looms, who will continue so to do? — I imagine that there must be many persons in that situation ; but I conceive they vill find it expedient to transfer their capital to some other mode of manufiicturing industry ; they never can maintain a competition with a less useful machine- against a more useful nuchinc. 545. As long as they do, is it not their direct interest to have the wages 01' the . hand-loom weaver as low as possible? — Clearly, they have the power in their owa 550' L bands; Tbt Rev. /. M. Turner. 37 February, 1817. 8a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE The Rev. /. M, Turutr. 97 F«braaiy, 1837. hands; they pay the man 74. this week, if they choose to make it 5 «. the next week there is no possibility of icsistlng it, because the other '2s. will be made up from the parish rates. 546. You do not conceive that Irishmen will come over to obtain employment in hand-loom weaving, when your own hand-loom weavers shall become extinct ? — We have no Irish weavers settled with us, except a small proportion of apprentices. 547. If a sufficient proportion of your population were withdrawn, to raise the rate of wages, have you any doubt that the master manufacturer who now takes apprentices, would increase the number of those apprentices ?— I conceive it would be his interest to get his work done in the most economical way. .S48. That would be by increasing the number of his apprentices ? — I imagine it would be so. 549. Has your select vestry never endeavoured to enforce the law, by refusing to pay rents or to make payments in aid of wages out of the poor rate?— It has beeo suggested to the select vestry ; we have attempted to enforce it, but I am not aware of its having been enforced. 550. You have never refused assistance? — I am not aware that it has been refused. 5,51. Have any of those hand-loom weavers been accustomed in any degree to agricultural habits? — In some degree ; they are accustomed to set potatoes for them- selves every year. 553. Do any of the agricultural labourers receive relief in your parish r — Very few ; the proportion of agricultural labourers receiving relief is very small; up to the beginning of last year we had no adult healthy person receiving relief. 553. Has this question of Emigration excited any attention in that part of the country? — In my own parish I should say that it has not ; though, I have been away some weeks ; I imagine that in the large towns in our neighbourhood it has been entertained with great anxiety. 554. You are aware that in case of this plan of emigration being carried into effect, no parties would be taken except they were able-bodied, in full health, and in the prime of life, and utterly without employment? — I understood it to apply only tc such parties as are now described, the healthy and the industrious. 555> Can you state alout the average number of persons that have gained settle- ments in your parish by serving apprenticeship?— In the factory I have alluded to^ which perhaps comprises the whole, there are, I believe, from eighty to one hundred apprentices, and about one-seventh of that number gain settlements every year. 556. Arc the tithes rated in your parish ? — They are. 557. Assuming that in Ireland the rate of wages is infinitely lower than in England, and that a free intercourse exists between the two countries on very cheap terms, must not the tendency of such a system be to lower the rate of wages in England, to an approximation to those in Ireland ? — I conceive we experience that annually ; because our rate of wages in harvest would be much higher than it is, if it were not for the Irish who come over. 558. Do you see any other possible termination to it, than that of lowering the rate of wages in England, and bringing them nearer to the rate, of wages in Ireland? — I can see none. 559. Supposing emigration to take place from England to any considerable extend and no emigration to take place from Ireland, would not the effect of that emigration be to increase the influx of Irish labourers into England? — I conceive that it woijild; but it would not be felt by our parishes as so great a grievance, inasmuch as the Irish labourers would not have a settlement. 560. Do you conceive that any measure in Ireland which has a tendency to raise the condition of the people and to provide them with productive employment, would have the effect of diminishing this evil, as affecting England? — I should conceive that if it were their interest to stay at home, we should see but little of them in Cheshire. 561. You caid that the practice of paying a part of the wages of labour and the rents of cottages out of the poor rates, applied only to the hand-loom weavers and to the spinners? — I am not aware of any other trade in which it has been necessary to have recourse to that. 5162. Supposing the wa^s in the power-loom trade were very low, is there any reason why the same principle should not be applied to it i — None whatever. 563. Then the only reason it has not been applied in that case is, that the wages in the power>loom trade have been sufficieat for the support of a family upon the t terms ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : 1827. 83 (emu you have laid down ? — I can imagine no other reason than that the wages bare been adeqoate. 564. What is the saving of labour effected by the power-loom ? — I cannot speak with any thing like accurate knowledge upon the subject, I can only speak to the deference of quality in the fabric, which the most unpractised eye can detect. 565. Supposing a certain quantity of goods were to be manufactured, how many labourers would it take to manufacture it with the power>loom, as compared with the band loom ? — I ac. not prepared to state that; but if the master manufacturer gifcs out a certain quantity of yarn to be woven by twenty diflerent weavers, he gets twenty 'different qualities of cloth, whereas if he puts it into a power loom, it is aU of precisely the same quality. 566. From your knowledge of the state of your parish, do you believe that the owners of the land would consent to mortgage for a term of years the poor rate, for the specific purpose of emigration'? — I do not see that the owner of tlie land has any thing to do with it 567. Do you think that those persons who by law are entrusted with the appro- priation of the parochial rate, would be disposed to charge that rate, under certain conditions, for the purposes of emigration ? — I think they would. 568. Do you think the landlords would be disposed to object to it ? — I do not see how the landlord could interfere in it 569. Has the landlord any interest in interfering?— I think not 570. May not the occupier who votes in the select vestry for this prospective charge of ten years, quit hu tenement in the course of six months, and leave that charge to be borne by others? — Under the present state of the law, such a pro- spective arrangement would be impossible ; we cannot mortgage the rates for ten years. 571. But if, in consequence of this arrangement, he leaves his land with a less annual charge from the rate than the present charge, will not the landlord be mate* rialiy benefited by it ? — I should conceive so. 57-2. Is not this the result, that it is possible that the present charge may last only six months, and under the courle proposed there will be a fixed mortgage payable for ten years to come ? — In many ca^xs that might be the result 573. Are the individuals comprising the select vestry principally renters of land, or landowners ? — Renters of land, principally. Major Thomas Moody, again called in ; and Examined. 574. YOU have lately been to the parish of Shipley, in Sussex ? — Yes, I have. 575. Had you an opportunity of examining in minute detail, into the circum- stances of that parish ?— 'Yes, I had, so far bs the assistance I received from the Member for the county, Mr. Walter Burrell, directing certain overseers of that parish, and some farmers, to attend and answer such questions as I might put to them. 576. What is the amount of the population in the ji.ii'h? — Of the present popu- lation I could not get an accurate statemeni:; but frui,'i the last returns made to Parliament, the population was 1,159 persons. 577. What is the estimated rental of that parish' — The estimated rental of the parish is 2,599 '• 5 '• 578. What is the amount of money wh'cb has been applied under the poor rates for the relief of the poor during the iasi year?— The sum so applied went - 2,314/. 11 ». 579. Can you sUte in detail to the Committee, the different fsituations of the parties receiving this parochial assistance i — There were 67 men, who were em- ployed upon the public roads ; there were elso aged and infirm persons without &milies, unable to work upon that or any other kind of work, 6 ; widows with- out children, 1 5 ; widows with children, 5 ; illegitimate children under twelve years of age, 8 ; children under twelve years of age, 113; exclusive of other children in the parish that do not receive relief; for though relief is given for only 113 children, yet the parents of those children have 263 ; it was only when tLe parents had beyond a certain number of children, that they became entitled to parochial relief for such excess. 580. What was that number ? — That number was 3 ; no allowance is paid but for a number in one family exceeding 3 ch;' iren, to the best of my recollection ; besides these, there were inmates in the workhouse (those I have mentioaed not 550* L 2 being Tbe R that part of Hie country upon the subject of emigration ? — Nine. 621 . Do tho^je relate to the county of Renfrew exclusively ?— I think they are all from t :ie county of Renfrew ;, one is from Irish settlers in it. 6a;;. Ycd cannot speak particulariy as to tbe situation of the population in Lanark- shire?— No; but from conversation, I believe it to be very similar to that of the county of Renfrew. C23. Is I^narkshire as populous a county as Renfrewshire? — Not in proportion to its extent, I ha\'e reason to believe. ... 624. Out altogether there is as large a number of inhabitants in Lanarkshire as in Renfrewshire ?— I should think larger." 625. Do you therefore conceive that there is as large a number of persons in a situation of distress in Lanarkshire as in Renfrewshire ?— I could not exactly speak to that fact. 63(i. Do you happen to know whether or not the unemployed persons in Lanark- shire are hand-loom weavers ; which are the class of persons who are unemployed in Renfrewshire ? — 1 believe aUrost entirely ; because when the weavers experience a difficulty in finding employment in their own trade, they have recourse to country labour, and thereby cause distress amongst the labourers ; but it originates in tMs weaving trade. 627. From your general impression upon the subject, are you of opinion that any other remedy presents itself for improving the condition of those persons out of employment in Renfrewshire, than that of emigration ? — I think emigration will be essentially necessary to commence a- effectual remedy. 628. Do you discover any remedies for the distress which has of late prevailed in the district of country of which you have been speaking i — I think the recurrence of a similar distress among the manufacturing population might be gready diminished, if not altogether removed. 629. By what means? — I think if the persons who give employment to labourers, and the persons in whose houses they reside, were made in some degree responsible that the persons employed and housed by them were not to b. left so exclusively chargeable to the parish, that that would go a great way to prevent the recurrence of the distress which now prevails in country parishes. 630. If a large proportion of the present distressed persons were removed from tbe dutrict of country to which you allude, do you discover any other means by which [:. • ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : 1837. 87 which that gap might be prarented from being supplied by persons from other pirta of the country, in the event of a better state of employment arising?— la addition to what I have already said, I think that giving some power of removal to assist parishes to which this surplus population usually flows, would contribute to prevent the settlement of an undue population in those districts. It is tiie cusioon for persons who have contracts to make roads, ditches and canals, and for all persons who are establishing manufactures, not only to encourage the Irish to come, but there have been cases stated, where they have sent advertisements to Ireland, requesting the population to come, on the prospect of a great supply of work, and the consequence is, that a great quantity of Irish come, who settle as weavers, because there is no law of apprenticeship now which fetters them in adopung that trade as soon as their employer finishes his contract or has no employment. 631. In what manner do those people, so introduced, gain peunanent settlements? — By residing three years without receiving charity ; but they frequently beg in the parish adjoining, which saves them from the operation of that law ; they send also their wives and children to beg there. 633. Your fother is one of the largest proprietors in the neighbourhood of Glasgow;', hu he contributed largely of kte to the relief of the poor in that neighbourttood? — He has. 033. Do you conceive that he, and other proprietors situated as he is, would lend any considerable assistance for the removal of way portion of the surplus population that now exists in that neighbourhood ? — I conceive that he might contribute to aid persons to emigrate, provided be saw that by so doing he would be protected from a new accumulation of labour for which there is no demand. 634. Would he be prepared to give that money, or to lend it ? — I cannot speak exactly to that, but I conceive that he might be disposed to do either, according to the recommendation of the Committee, and the nature and extent of that protection; but I speak entirely from conjecture. 635. Do you tliink that accumulation of labour could be prevented ? — I think that it Height in a great measure be prevented. 636. Will you have the goodness to state in what manher you think it might be prevented ? — I think if the persons who now endeavour to introduce labourers for the purpose of lowering the rate of wages should feel the burden of supporting unemployed labourers who become settlers, that tliey probably would rather give a higher rate of wages to the population they now have, than seek for a foreign population for the purpose of reducing the wages. Mr. William Spencer Northhouse, of the London Free Press Newspaper, late of Glasgow, called in ; and Examined. 637. YOU are authorised, on the part of certain Emigration Societies in Scotland, to lay their case before this Committee ? — I am. 638. Will you state the names of the societies so authorizing ycu ? — For the county of Renfrew : the Paisley Friendly Emigration Society ; the Paisl^ Caledo- nian Emigration Society, N* i ; the Paisle) Canadian Emigration Society ; the Barrhead and Neilston Emigration Society ; the Paisley and Suburbs Emigration Society ; the Elderslie Emigration Society ; the Paisley Caledonian Emigration So- ciety, N*a; the Paisley Friendly Emigration Society ; the Lochwinnock Emigra- tion Society, and the Paisley Broomlands Emigration society. I am also authorized by the following Emigration Societies in Lanarkshire : the Glasgow St. George's Parish Societies, N' 1 and 2 ; the Barony Middle Ward Society ; the East Barony Society; the Parkheid Society; the North Quarter Society; the Calton Society. N' 1 ; the Calton Clyde-street Society ; the Underston Society ; the Gorbala So- ciety; theTradeston Society; the College Parish Society ; the Bell-street Society ; the Old Monkland Socjety ; the Rutherglen Society ; the Brid^eton Society ; the Camlachie Society ; the Govan Society ; the St. John's Parish Society ; the Spring- burn Society ; the Campsie Society : the Kirkintilloch Society, and the Eaglesham Society. 639. What is the aggregate number of persons constituOng those societies? — The soiceties in Renfrewshire comprise 634 families, and 5,364 individuate ; the societies iu Lanarkshire comprise 1,618 families; I do not know the number of individuals; if they were taken in the same proportion as those m Renfrewshire, it would be about 8,500 individuals. 640. Is the Glasgow Emigration Society one of those you represent T— N*. $50* L 4 041 Are Mr. fT. S. NortUoute. 88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE I I })' Mr. 641. Are there any other emisration (ocieties in that part of the country, besides W.S.KoriHouii. those you have mentioned? — I believe there may be a few, but there are only ^^ ^ ' a few. .... 1 Mtrcli, 5^3, y^re the greater part of the individuals composing those societies, hand- '••'• loom weavers ?— Nearly the whole of the societies I have mentioned are hand- loom weavers; I believe the Glasgow Society is composed of cotton-spinnera Imncipally, and persons who are in rather better circumstances than the miserable hdividuals I represent. <)43. Do you consider the greater part of the persons composing those societies to be at the present moment in a state of want and destitution, arising from the less demand which exJHts for their labour ? — Not so much from a less demand for their labour, as from the inndequate payment of their labour ; I believe the demand is much better now than it was formerly ; there are not many individuals at present out of work. 644. What is the cause to which the low rate of wages is to be attributed under circumstances of an improveoing two days without food, was delivered of a child in that condition, having nothii)<; bu' vtater to subsist upon. Meetings of the landlords of their houses have taken place m various parts, and the landlords have come to the resolution not to allow thecn to remain any longer than next Whitsunday ; they have already seized many of their looms, and sold them by public auction ; and they have stated as a reason for adopting that course, that they (the landlords) are positively giving their property to men who ought to be supported, either by the government or by the manufacturers who employ them. There have been public meetings of the landlords ; one luiullord stated the fact, that he had about 160 weavers at a village called Springburn ; I believe it to be a fact, that he has not received a proportion of 2 s. in the pound for his rents for the last 1 8 months. I know of another who has a mortgage upon his property at i-3d part of its supposed value, for which he pays 7r /. a year interest, and he has not received 20/. for the last ^18 months. 658. Are you aware that the distresses of that part of the country have been' considerably mitigated by liberal subscriptions, which have bcea transmitted by the London Relief Committee in aid of them ? — I have no doubt that the immediate distresses of the people arc mitigated, but it required more than present and uncertain charity to give any thing like consolation to (he people. 659. Supposing no increased demand to take place for the products of the hand- loom weavers, so as to raise their wages, and that the relief transmitted from this country were to cease, would not one of these two consequences necessarily arise, either that the distress of those parties would be aggravated in a dreadful degree, or that the maintenance of them, and the support of tiiem, would fall upon the district to which they belong? — If there were no increased demand, the people would starve to death. 660. In the case of a man, a woman, and three children (taking that as the ratio' of a family) utterly without means of employment, that is, for whose services no real demand exists, who may be employed out of charity, but not with a view to any beneficial result, and who consequently are left entirely to be maintained by a con- tribution of some sort or other; what is the lowest estimate per head at which you can calculate the subsistence of those persons per annum ? — I would say the lowest estimate per head of the subsistence of five persons, would be about 30 s. ; that would be for the whole about 13/. per annum for the whole family. 66 1. You consider therefore, the proposition being that they are utterly without employment, that they can be maintained in existence for 1 3 /. per annum ? — I do ; many have been sustained for less. 663. What ia the total expense which is incurred in respect of a family of five persons, including not only subsistence, but every other expense?— I should think that a family of five |jersons have been in many instances sustained at less than 5^. a week, without charity ; some even at less than 4 j. a week. 663. Do you mean including rent and clothing? — I cannot say that they have, paid for any rent or clothing.. 550- ** U 664. At Mr. S.ir»rlMam. I M-rrb, il<7. 90 MINUTES OF EVlL)..^iCE DEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE »» Mr. I March, 1^17. 664. At what amount should you citiinate the other (;< cficury expentes for lu h afamilyr— I think clothing for a poor family, «uch a '.'tty i^nerally wear, might bo got for about a /. per annum ; I think the rent would amount to 1 «. 6 i.:t<': by charity. 667. You have stated to the Committee, that on Whitsundav nett a considerable numi)er of weavers will be dispossessed of tlieir habitations ; do you know what is to become of those persons under those circumstances?— I know what their own feelings are ; the whole of tliem depend upon the legislatucil aendina them out of the country ; and if the legislature doea not, they will have to buHd a teni|)orary residence with what materiau they can get in the public greeny and take such food as they can procure by force, I presume, firom those that nave a surplus quanti^. 668. What has been the cai se, accordinj^ to your judgment, of the extraordinary patience which those persons have exercised m this their fitter distreu P-i-The hope of emigration. 6(19. You attribute their patience to no other cause? — I know it has no other cause ; I know that in many instances I myself have been obliged to give them ever^ encouragement that I could conscientiously give them, in order to prevent their brealtiiig out into absolute riot. 670. Has not the po\ crty and misery of the population in some of the manufac- turing districts about Glasgow and Paisley, been as great as can well be imagined ? — I never could, until I had seen it, imagine the possibility of such distress ; it has been the bare tenuity of life, if I may use the phrase. I have no hesitation in say- ing, that the poor people themselves have sufficient mind not to ascribe the evils they have endured to machinery, but tu taxation weighing upon labour, and restric- tions p'-iventing markets. 671. Are you of opinion, under all the circumstances, that these evils, unlike other->> have no capacity in themselves tu cure themselves ? — ^They have nut ; I am ratltvT CI pinion, that where dbtress exists to a very great degree, popnlatioifvgoes on wctift aa; inasmuch as the unfortunate beings become reckless and desperate, t>st ,' cmrr, without thought. • ri?2. What is the peculiar species of manufacture tvhich a hand-loom weaver foUutvj} in that district ? — Principally book muslins, and a variety of fabrics of a coarser and a finer nature, which I cannot describe, not being in the trade. 673. Has there not been, from various causes, a dimunition in thr last year of the demand for that particular branch of manufacture ? — I should think in conse- quence, in some degree, of the alteration of the pa(>er currency, tliere was a con- siderable diminution in the making of those goods. 674. Did you ever hear of a diminution in the exportation of book muslins ? — There must be a great diminution in exportation, when the means of speculation are taken away from the parties. 675. You consider that diminution in exportation to be one cause of the distress that exists?— It is one uf tlie immediate causes; I look upon the mediate causes to be other circumstances, which I am not called upon to state. 676. Have you any knowledge as to the sttfte of those parties now in Canada ? — I have ; I know that many tliat went over to Canada in a state of utter destitution in 1820, are now in a state of comparative liappiness; many of them have written to their friends desirous of coming over, telling tnem that they certainly encountered great hardships for 1 8 or 20 months, but that after that time they found that their situation got pro^essively better, and that they would gladly endure five times the amount of hardship, in order to be placed in the situation in which they now are. ' 677. Have you any knowledge as to the expense of conveying thosie people to Canada, and of locating them there? — I have; I believe that in the year 1820, about 700/. was paici to a vessel, at the rate of 4/. or 5/. per bead, including provisions, and I know that at that time another vessel might have been got for about 400 /., little more than 50 per cent upon the sum ; and I am sure if it were left -ij#v.. ■ to ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. gi to the inteoded emigranU tbemsdvea, Uiej would find (he meann of gom^ upon a far more economical plan than other persoDi could do for them, and tor this roaton, that the whole of the Scotch emigrants contemplate (ho repayment of any money that may be advnwced fur their use by Parliament, and would of course expend as little as they could. 678. On wiiat m .iods do they feel that confidence of bcina enabM to repay tlw sums udvi' iced ?— From the evidence they have of the accumulating wealth of those who have already gone out ; and I may say the Scotch poor are as remarkable for their honesty as for any feeline by which they are characterised. 679. Do yott know of any instances in whirh |>f>rsons have been enabled to repay any suau that may have been advanced for ttic purpose of their emigration ? — I do not know that It baa ever been tried upon that plan. 680. Then it is presumed you !>•« of opinion, that the cheapest mode of emigrating those personH, woiikl be to supply them with some funds, and to leave the rest to them ? — For greater safety, ana likewise to remove certain objections in some quarters as to their leaving Canada for the United States, I should recommend that tho government did not gjlve them any money, but establish in the different towns the means of giving tbetn rations of food, either weekly or monthly, until they were enabled to supp^ themselves. the Evidence that was given before I have. '" <;iven of the manner in which of those persMis belonging to I believe many of them have 681. Have you bad ati opportunity of r tlie Committee on Emigration in the i»ft^ (iSi. Have you read the very mir the emigrants were settled in 1833 au 683. Have you any reason to knou those emigration societies, have seen th seen it 684. Are you to be understood to state that they are fully prepared to repay at the earliest period compatible with their means, that is, to pay interest redeemable at will, for any money which may be advanced for their location, upon the cheapest principle on which it can be earned into effect ? — I am ready on their part to state, that not only will they enter into any single bond for that purpose, but they will enter into joint and several bonds for each other, and thev will get their friends also in Canada, who have expressed their willingness to do so, to enter into joint and several bonds with them for the repayment of the money that would be advanced. 685. Is it not true that those men, notwithstanding their miseries, have very just ideits ,in general with respect to the effects of maclunery? — They have generally just ideas as to the effects of machinery ; ttieir misery has m some instances blinded their views respecting .machinery, as it has done in other parts of the country, but they generally ascribe their distress to other causes. 686. Are you not of opinion, from what you know of the western part of Scotland, that had it not been for the application of charity from the various sources from whence it has been derived, a portion pf the population must have perished ?-^ I know that a portion of the population must have perished, had it not been for tb(U charily ; and I know that those who have accepted of that charity, have gone with the feeling of almost plunging their handM iuto the fire to save their lives. 687. You have stated, that a great portion of the persons who arc now employed as hand-loom weavers are in a state of distress ; what are the wages of those persons who are now employed? — It is according to the peculiar fabric upon which they are employed ; on the coarser fabrics, the utmost extent of their wages I take to be about 3«. 6d. per week, working sixteen hours per day. 688. What will a fiimily of five persons earn in a week, supposing them to consist of a man, a woman, and three children of the ages of fourteeo, eight and three i—r The children of the ages of fourteeii and eight would be employed, and the man and woman would be employed; by their combined exertions they might earn about it. 6d. per week at the coarser iabrics.- 689. You appear to anticipate a further employaient of those persons who are now out of employment ; if the whole should be employed, do you conceive that the present rate of wages will continue? — I do not anticipate a further increase; I thiitk ^le present increase is the mere revulsion of the tide, and will not last; I antidplite a decrease of the present einployment ; I think that employment has arrived near its maximum. 690. Do you consider that the average earnings of the persons composing 'hose societies whose names you have mentbtiPd, amount to about $8. 6d. a v!«ek for 550- M 2 .a family Mr. I Mtrcb, 1137. -U<-i IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGEl (MT-3) '■ i 1.0 I.I ■so "^^ m m m u 2.5 ■ 40 ■ 2.0 L25||U j^ ^ 6" » if Hiotographic Sdences CorporatiGn 23 WIST MAIN STRin WEBSTH,N.Y. 14580 (716) •72-4503 ' 1 March, ' 1837. 93 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. a family of five persons ? — I should think their arerage earnings are not mure than Hr.S.No rtkkou,e . from 5*. 6d. to 6*. 691. Then the expense incurred by the country for those persons, either by pobli funcis or private charity, is the difference between the sum so obtained as wages, and that which you allege to be the minimum expense at which they can live? — Certainly, unless they starve for a certain length of time. 69a. Then that difference will be about 7/. 6t. per annum? — I have no doubt of it. 693. That you conceive to be about the average expense that those people are to the country at the present time? — That is the least average expense. 694. In stating 21 /. i3«. to Ik the minimum at which you think a family, con- sisting of a man, a woman, and three children, could be maintained, do you mean to say that you think it a desirable thing that the wages of that class of the com- munity should be nd higher than that? — I mean to say that I consider it a desirablfe thing for the general good, that the wages of labour should be as low as possible; but I mean to say that for the welfare of the people in those districts, it is abso- lutely necessary that the wages should be much higher. , ^-^^ 695. Supposing the wages of labour to be doubled, if machinery can supply the place of labour, will not the profits of the capitalist remain the same? — I should answer that question by putting another case ; supposing that all restrictions upon the sale of the gsods were removed, ti.en the increase of the demand would cause a rise in the price of wages, it would enable the capitalist to employ the whole of the men, and give him a return for his capital ; I mean to say, supposing the corn lavi^ were repealed. 696. How much did those persons, who are now unemployed, earn two years ago, wiien they were in a state of full employment? — In 1816, the amount of their earnings was about 1 (}<. per week ; they gradually became smaller and smaller, from both mediate and immediate causes, till about two years ago they were six shillings a week, and they are now on an average about 3 s. gd. or 4 j. a week. 697. Then if a full state of employment were to take place, upon what ground do you suppose that the high wages, which existed in 1816, will not occur again? — Because in 1816 machinery was not employed upon the same fabrics that it b employed upon now; it is continually invading one fabric after another, and machinery must always determine the wages of manual labour ; if a man make a machine, it costs him so much money as capital ; the interest of that money amounts to so much, and it costs him so much in the working, and he will dirays determine in his own mind whether that machinery costs a greater or a smaller sum than so many labourers producing the same quantity of work, and he will take that which is the cheapest. 698. You have stated, that you represent here eleven thousand persons, who are desirous of emigrating ; do you conceive that it will be necessary to remove those eleven thousand persons, to produce relief in that part of the country ? — I have no hesitation in saying, shat the removal of a sin;>le individual produces a quantity of relief greater than the amount of what that individual earns, and if one thousand persons are removed, it will produce a greater relief than4be supposed earnings of two thousand persons. 699. Will you explain more in detail your masons for that opinion? — My reason is this ; the principles of supply and demand are the seme in all trades (except where artificial restrictions exist ;) when there are more than a given number of hands re- quired by a manufacturer, the surplus, having no employment, will offer to labour for a smaller sum than those who have been fortunate enough to receive employment, and precisely according to the number of that surplus will the wages cohtinue to de- crease, until they arrive at the lowest point at which any person will take work, that being measured by the minimum cost of subsistence, and the mode that may exist of getting any subsistence from any other quarter in addition to those wages ; but the removal of a number of those surplus hands, and likewise of a number of thiwc that are at present in employment, will cause a greater rise in wages than in the ratio of the wages earned by the persons who were removed; for this reas>>i, that the master manufacturers, instead of giving every one less than his brother mani^cturer, will give more, in order to have the advantage of his workmen ; thus, if at* a given time a manufacturer p&ys 5^. but cannot employ all the persons who offer to work at 5 s., those whom he cannot employ having no other mode of subsistence but the work which he gives out, will offer to doit for 43. iid,, he may then employ a certain ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 93 a certain number; a few more of the remainder will offer to work for 4s. lOd, or 4s. gd., or 4«. 8d. or 4s. 7 do you not imagine that it is more for the interest of the emigrants, and more for the interest of the community, that a settled system should be adopted, under which the whole process should be carried on under some responsible person or persons, rather than by leaving it to the accidental choice of each emigrant, as to the mode that should be pursued ? — I have no hesitation in answering that question in the affirmative; but if it refer, as I suppose it does, to time, I must add, that one half of the people who petition for emigration will most assuredly perish for want of subsistence, should the measure be postponed for another year, till plans are matured and perfected. . _ • 704. Supposing that tliose persons were to be located together, locations being prepared for them, roads being made, rations being procured, and all the necessary assistance being given to them, and that under the charge of responsible persons; do you not think that would be as desirable a mode of executing the object, as by scat- tering those persons over the different parts of the North American provinces, where .their friends may happen to be, that course being necessarily attended witiv much additional expense in transmitting them to those different points? — I have no hesitation in saying that it would be for the benefit of the Canadian population to have roads made, and to have the means of communication ; but I imagine that those persons, anticipating the return of this money by themselves, would not like that larger expenses should be incurred than were necetsary. 705. Supposing that no expense is incurred but that which is the miqimum ne- cessary for the purpose of enabling them to go on by themselves, and to pirosper after that assistance is withdrawn ; would they object to paying back that expense ? — Not in the least. « ; 706. Are you not aware, with respect to rationing those persons, that it can be done at less expense upon an extended scale, than if each individual bad to cater for himself in the purchase of necessaries ?>-I cannot reply toti lit question ; 1 have no personal knowledge upon the subject. 707. Are you aware of what is meant by the expense to be incurred in locating those parties r — I think I am. 708. There is the passage from this country to Canada ? — ^That they can get cheaper than government. 709. There i§ the provisioning during the voyage ? — That they can get cheaper than government. 7iO|^There is the. removal of them from the place of debarkation to the place of their location ?— Of that I have no knowledge. 711. There is the finding certain implements which are necessary for settlers in the early period of their settlement ? — That I do not know the cost of. 712. There is the purchase, perhaps, of a pig or a cow ?— That they would very frequently get from their friends, when they get there. 7 1 3. There are their rations for a year, or a year and four months, for tlie period during which it is necessary that they should be provided with food, prior to their 550- M 3 own IKS. Mr. Norlhhotue. I March, 1837. i J 94 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMnTEE 1 March, 1847. i- *. M r. own crops ^ving them the means of subsistence ? — Under any circumstances, whether W. 5. JHurthhoym. cheaper or dearer, I think the government should provide those rations. 714. With respect to the purchase of a pig. you say it would be better that they should receive that from their friends ?— I believe they would be generally better pleased to make their own market for their goods. 715. Would not the additional expense that would be incurred in removbg them from the place of debarkation to the spot where their friends might happen to be settled, be three times as much as the cost of a pig which was bought for them under any circumstances of their being located together, without that separation ?— I did not m6an that they should purchase the pig where thev land, and take it with them to their location, but that when they got to their location they would get from their friends a pig, or any thing of that sort, out of their surplus stock'. 716. Would it not be perfectly impossible to cany on an emigration upon an extended scale, with the plan of locating.each person at the point where^ he might happen to have friends or relations ? — I could not give a more accurate view of the circumstances of the people after they got to Canada, than by simply stating, that those who have gone over are comfortable, and, in some instanees, would help those who follow them. 717. Ycu were understood in an early (mrt of your evidence to say, that you thought that those parties had better be removed under the care and superintendence of government; you are understood now to say, that it would be better to place money in the hands of those parties, and for them to provide for themselves?' — I did not state that I wished the money to be pat into the hands of those parties, I merely wished that the parties might have some of the most respectable men connected with Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire to superintend the process of tlte emigration ; I mean to say, that with local friends near their present residencies superintending embarkation, those persons would most assuredly do it considerably cheaper than it could be done upon any scale that the government would do it upon. 718. Presuming that all those individual^ sincerely wish to repay the government the charges of their removal to America, is there not rather a feeling of jealousy in their minds that tliey may haye more to pay hereafter than would be quite con- venient to them ? — There is such a feeling. 719. Are they not therefore desirous to be removed upon as cheap terms as possible, with a view to lessen that future payment?— I have no hesitation in saying that they would most gladly emigrate under any circumstances, from their present desperate and most deplorable condition, but they would like to find out the cheapest mode themselves (as they have to repay the money) in preference to having it done according to what are usually considered the practices of govern* ment. 720. Supposing that their firiends at Glasgow were of opinion that the mode of removal t^nt was adopted was the cheapest and the most proper that could be adopted, do you not consider that in that case - nigrants would entirely ac> quiesce ? — They would perfi^tly acquiesce under >ircumstances, and in any mode, as I have said before. 731. You stated that some families went out ui the year 1820; under what circumstances did they go out ?<^There were local committees formed in Glasgow, for the purpose of promoting and facilitating emigration ; those committees founcT out a plan of sending them over for a mu^.i smaller sum than has been stated in Par- liament ; I have no hesitation in saying; that instead of costing 20 /. a head, they may be located and kept for about 12/. a head ; and it is upon that ground, aS i4'ell as upon a tist\xxajama clamosa against government practices, that they would rather do it by their own means with government money, than by the means generally adopted by government. 722. You stated, that those families who went out in 1820, have written home to their friends in Scodand, stating their condition ?— They have. 723. What has prevented tlwir friends in Scotland who are in a state of dbtress, from joining them?— The want of means. 724. Do you know any particular impediments that have occurred to prevent a similar emigration to that which took place in 1820? — ^There are many persons who would have gone over to Canada, being possessed of a small sum of money, who cannot now go over with that sum of money, because by an Act that has been lately passed, insisting upon a certain quantity of tonnage to every passenger, the expenses of emigration have been increased threefold, and the result is, tliat those who. .#* DN EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 95 who, having two or three pounds, eould formerly get over to America, cannot get ^^ ^ jwJ**«iu« over now. k' ' J 735. Therefore you are of opinion that the Acts which have been passed, regu- , ]^,„|, lating the transport of those persons, since i8au, have repressed voluntary emigre* ita?. ' tlon?— I am. 736. Are you not aware that the success of an emisrant who ^s without any capital, must depend upon the demand for his labour when he arrives ?— I suppose upon natural principles, that it must be so; but I know there have been few emi< grants who have eoiie from Scotland, who have not got immediate employment for their labour ; and in fact, I believe there is a society at Quehec for the purpose of giving some little encouragement and relief to those that are in that destitute condition. 737. If the supply of labour were to be beyond the demand, must not the inevita- ble consequence be, that those persons would be in a situation of great distress ? — The supply of labour in Canada can never be beyond the demand, for a length of time. 728. If 30,000 mnoBS were landed in Canada to>morrow, without one single farthing of capital, do you mean to state that there is such a demand for their service that tlwy would all find employment ? — I believe if they could not find sufficient employment, they would find faalities for removing to another country hear at hand. 729. Without lookbg at so large an emigration as one of twenty thousand per- sons, do vou know that persons at present resident in Glasgow have rderived letters from their friends who have emigrated to Canada, recommending thiem to come out?— Decidedly so ; I am in possession of a great quantity of information upon that subject ; tiie letters are all of the same import, that the persons who have gone over are comfortably settled, and that every year they are improving. They began at the lowest point of very hard labour, and their health improved ; and they are in comparatively comfortable circumstances. One old man, that went over in a state of great infirmity and sickness, wrote back to his friends, after he had been four years there, that he was worth 100 A ; he has a family of five children. moment whether the passi^ were A/, or 60/. ; they have nothing. 731. Supposing it to be admitted th(it no unnecessary expense is incurred in locating those pertons in such a manner that they are likelv to prosper, do you suppose they would prefer having no assistance, and being called upon for no repayment, or being assisted in the manner proposed, and after the lapse of eight or nine years being called upon tocommtace the payment of interest upon the money originally expended in their location? — I have no hesitation in saying^))iat they would most cheerfully subscribe to those terms, and would most gretenilly' acquiesce in any plaq for repay- ment of interest and principal; they only wish tO| be taken from the d^^rate con- dition in which they are at present placed. 733. You have stated,, that if a great numfier of those families are not relieved before a particular day, they viU be turned into the streets on account of rent ? — They will be turned out of H^t houses; because their landlords, for the sake of those poor men, and finding that their present condition u absolutely a gradual death, they have come to the resolution w turning tiiem out by wholesale. There is a village, the whole of which u inhabited by weavers ; it belongs to one gen- tieman ; and that gentieman has declared his determination to turn out every one, and to "roup" all their furniture, and to throw his wretched tenants upon the world. 733. Are those families wholly Scotch, or are they some Scotch and some Irish?— They f>xt principally Scotch;, but there are many Irish in the Glasgow population. 73^ Are they persons who have resided where they are at present three years?— Many much longer. ' '¥ 735. Have you formed any definite opinion witii reference to the aggregate num- ber of the parties applying for emigration, as to the number of persons, the removal of whom would tend instantaneously so to improve the condition of the remainder, as to remove the neat causes of distress? — I do not think it would reimove thecauses of distress ; as toimproving the condition of the poor people, I think that were 1,000 550. M 4 families •'I ^ ".\ ! Mr. IV. S. Nurtkkouit, Maich, iB-i7. 96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE families removed only at a very trifling expense, it would considerably better the remainder. 736. You mean 1,000 families, consisting of 5»ooo persons? — Yes. 737. Have you ever visited Ireland ? — I have. 738. However great the distress may be at Glasgow, or however redundant may be the population m its neighbourhood, is not the distress in Ireland, and the redun- dant population in Ireland, greater?— I have not been in thesoutli of Ireland, I have only been in the north of Ireland, where the situation of the people is very similar to the situation of the people in Glasgow. 739. If by the abstraction of 1,000 families from the neighbourhood of Glasgow, the condition of the remainder of the working population was improved by a rise in wages, have you any doubt, the state of Ireland remaining the same, that that vacuum would be instantly tilled up from that quarter ?-*-I have much doubt that the vacuum wauki be instantly filled up from that quarter, because the rate of wages must be so low, for some time to come, as to offer little temptation 'even to an Irishman to come over. 740. Are not the facilities of communication between Ireland arid Glasgow rapidly increasing ?— They are. 741 . What is the present rate of a passage from Ireland to Glasgow i — A steerage passage, I believe, they very frequently get for about two or three shillings, from Belfast to Glasgow. 742. Do not they get over for less than that? — Occasionally they may have got over for less. 743. You have stated that the sum necessary to support a family is about 23/. a year ; is it not consistent with your knowledge, that many heads of families are only receiving 4*. &d. or 5*. per week? — Much less, often. 744. Then how do they subsist? — By charity, or they partly starve ; that is, they pass days without food. 745. What leads you to imagine that a rise in the present wages at Glasgow would not be a temptation to the labouring poor of Ireland to go there ? — I do not think that the rise for some time would amount to so much as to enable the persons that came in to live. 746. Are you not aware of the fact, that there are persons wandering over the face of Ireland without any employment, or without any means of honest sub- sistence ? — I believe that a great part of the population of Ireland is unemployed. 747. Consequently any employment at any wages, however low, in Scotland, would be better than their present condition in Ireland ?— I do not think if they were in the same situation as the weavers at Glasgow, that their situation would be better than at present; they live in Ireland, and they could do no more, after they had learnt to weave, in Glasgow. 748. You say that the weaver at Glasgow has some employment, and some wages, and you admit that part of the population in Ireland have no employment and no wages ; therefore, would not their flowing into Glasgow to receive some employment and some wages, better, the condition of that Irish population? — I do not know that it would better their condition, because if in Scotland they cannot get so much as 10 sustain nature by their wages, seeing that they are sustained by some means or other in Ireland, I think they would nr<, be better off in Scotland than they are in Ireland. 749. Are you aware that in the year i8'Ji there was a Committee of Management of Emigration in Glasgow ? — I am ; but I was not in Glasgow in that year. 750. Is it consistent with your knowledge, that in that year that Committee trans- ported to America 1,883 individuals for 5,485/., at the rate of 2/. i8«. per head ? — I believe they did. - 751. That was prior to the passing of the Passengers Act? — Yes, it was. 752. Do you know what became of those 1,883 individuals upon their landing? — I believe the majority of them are still in Canada. ^ 753. Have they any location ? — ^They located themselves. 7,54. Were they absorbed by the demand for labour in that country upon their landing ? — Yes ; and Canada had a continual accession of emigrants year by year, till the passing of that impolitic Act. 755. Are you aware what has been the average rate of a passage to America, since the passing of the Passengers Act ? — I have heard that it is six or seven pounds. including provisions. ;.(*- 756. If % ON IMtORATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 97 756. If the Pasien^en Act were repealed, and the expente of ■ pMwge to Ametkt thereby diminished, although those destitute individuals whom you repre- sent could not eaiigrate in that way, have you any doubt tliat fiersons in great poverty, but one degree better, and having some small capital, would (ind means to qutgrate themselves ? — I believe that many would. 757. And the entire population in this country would be diminished exactly in the game proportion as if those destitute individuals were removed ?— I do not say that ; because those destitute individuals fonn an immense mass of the population, and the proportion that would gradually remove would be small compared with them } and during the operation of the removal of tliose persons, the principle of population would continue to increase the number of the wretched, for in proportion as people become more wretched, the population increases ; I mean to say, that when men are reckless and desperate in their character, they do not look for im- provement in their social condition, and they take the onl;|r enjoyment they have in their power, viz. sexual indulgence — they morrv; hence, in the worst parts of Ire- land, and in Lancashire, population more rapidly increases than in places where the people are better off. 758. Having considered this suUect attentively, can you state that it is your opinion, that applying the remedy of Emigration to England or Scotland, and apply- ing no remedy to the surplus population of Ireland, would produce any important national result ? — I believe the national result would be momentary ; and I believe that emigration would not produce half the advanges which the reduction of many duties would produce, in giving employment to the population. I could instance the fact of one duty, namely, the duty on printed goods, which amounts to about 4d. per square yard ; the average price of a piece of printed goods is 8 Mr. ly.S.NorUkmut. It Mitrch, 1817. 766. Do you not believe that in addition to that, the emigrant could locate Irinisclf, if allowed to do so in his own way, at a much leu sum of money than the State could do it for?— I have already stated, that so far asr egards conveying himself to Canada, I think he could; but as I have no personl knowledge of^the expenses in Canada, I must bow to the opinion of others in this Committee, wh» have more knowledge upon the subject , , . 767. Do you not believe that thousands and tens of thousands of emigrants have in iact located themselves in Canada with the auistance of their friends, upon very small sums of money ?— 1 know that to be Uie fact 768. Some perhaps with no money at all? — I do not know that to be the hot 769. Are you acquainted with the amount of settlement fees required in Canada? 770. Nor with the rate at which land is sold ? — I understood it was given away. 771. Are the Committee to tmderstand, that if the offer were made to thosft weavers in Glasgow and its neighbourhood, that they should be taken over and landed in Quebec, and receive no further assistance, that they would prefer accept- in" that offer, finding their own way to their friends and settling themselves, to leceiving assistance upon the principle of a minimum of subsistence being given to them with reference to ultimate repayment f — Certainly not ; they are m aucb a wretched state, that they must have some assistance rendered in Canada by w lioever takes them over. 77a. You were understood to state, that the friends of those parties are willing to assist in their location ; consequently upon on opportunity being given for a com- munication to their friends, that they were to be landed in Quebec, for example, upon a particular day, do you conceive that those weavers would rather trust to the assistance of their friends, not making themselves responsible for any return of money whatever, or that they would prefer to be settled upon the princi|de of Mr. Robinson's emigrations in 1823 and 1825? — I hav.e no hesitation in saying that they would prefer some certain assistance. 773. Are you not aware that it has never been contemplated to give any assistance to the emigrants that was not reduced to the least amount that is compatible with the maintenance of the emigrants so settled r — I wish that all objections to emi> gration may be done away with by proposing the very cheapest plan that can be btated to Parliament ; and I think that the phns that have been pursued already bj those local societies have been shown to be so exceedingly cheap, and so much below the sum mentioned by Mr. Peel, that I have no hesitation in stating one very great impediment in the way of emigration would be removed, if those plans were adopted. 774. You are understood to have stated in answer to a question put to you, that you think the emigrants themselves would prefer not to receive assistance afiter their arrival in Canada, but to be placed in the neighbourhood of their friends, and to rely upon the assistance of those friends ? — What I meant to say was, that the emigrants, like many other men, would be very glad to be the judges of their own mode of expenditure ; as they would have to repay the money advanced to them, they would like to have the hiring of the vessels, and any thing of that sort, in their own committees, or committees of gentlemen whom they know ; and probably by that means they would save the repayment of half the money that government would otherwise expend ; I mean to say, if government would establish local com- mittees, similar to the committees that have already existed in Glasgow, there is a general feeling that the business would be done at a considerably smaller ekptinse than government would be put to. 775. Do you mean to state, that the details of the location of those emigrants in Canada, and their necessary expenses in that country, would be better manag^ by a Glasgow committee than they would be by a general Emigration Committee, supposing such were to be appointed ? — I have no hesitation in saying that I believe it would be cheaper done by local committees, who are already well acquainted with all the details; there is as much known about Canada by those local committees at Glasgow, as is known by the government. 776. What practical course would you propose ? — The practical course i would propose would be simply this, to get some respectable gentlemen in Glasgow voluntarily, without any expense, to give their assistance ; there are many respect- able gentlemen in Glasgow and its neighbourhood, who would give the most cordial assistance without any expense ; they would themselves look after it ; they woulfl get the intended emigrants their food, and whatever was necessary for their paissage; I March, |SS7- ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 99 •nd they would hire veisels near Glasgow tt a much cheaper rate, and in a manner Mr. much more agreeable to the emigrant, than the emigrants would consider the ^*'- *'• N<» ikUm:^ government could 4to. 777. What should be done after they land ?— After they land, all further assistance should be left to the government. 778. Admitting that their removal from Glasgow were to be effected under the management of local committees, up to the period of their landing; in Canada, you are understood distinctly to state, that with respect to the remaining expense, the emigrants would be prepared to trust to the mode of assistance sanctioned by tliis Committee, or sanctioned by Parliament, that being the lowest that was deemed to be compatible with their welfare ? — Most cheerfully. 779. In the event of a subscription being made in aid of the emigration of those persons, do you suppose the persons subscribing would not endeavour to remove the class that they thought was the most useless, out of their neighbourhood ? — Of course. 780. You said, that you conceived the power-loom was a source of benefit to the country at large, although it contributed to cause distress in certain local districts; do you suppose that those local districts would consider that it rather devolved upon the country at large, than upon those local districts, to aid the emigration of those persons ? — I know that is the general opinion in the west of Scotland ; the general opinion is, that if those persons were removed, they ought not tt> be removed by any further burthen upon the already too-charitable gentlemen of the district, but that they should be removed at the expense of tlie nation at large. 781. Do you suppose that such persons, so subscribing to assist the emigration, would require, or would expect to have some means provided of preventing un undue accumulation of population, not natives of the country } — I have no hesitation in saying, that as improvement takes place in the condition of labouring men, popular tion will have a check, upon the principles I have already stated, both in Ireland and Scotland. 783. Is there not a great apprehension, if you were to remove that part of the Scotch population who petition for emigration, that their places would be liable instantly to be filled up by Irish, if some steps were not taken to guard against that? — Ceitainly, such is the general apprehension ; but I do not believe it would be the fact, that is to say, instantly. 783. You stated, that at a place which you know, the whole of the weavers would be turned out of their houses by the proprietors, on a certain day ; you stated also, that there was no parish fund, out of which the able-bodied persons could be supplied ; what would be the consequences to those persons, could they emigrate to other parts of Scotland ? — There is no possible mode of relief to which those persons could resort; they could go to no trade in Scotland, for every trade is filled up; and likewise, I understand, every trade in England ; the weaver is in tliat peculiar con^ dition, that he can turn his labour to nothing, except the very lowest offices ; they may get a little out-door work ; I have seen their hands lacerated exceedingly, by eai'ning sixpence a day at breaking stones. 784. Do you think there is a redundance of population of native Scotch, or do you think it is owing to the influx of Irish ? — I do not think there vvould be a redun- dant population in any part of Great Britain, were taxation abv otl ^nd restrictions abolished ; not even with all the Irish that come into Scotland. 785. Do you think, if the Irish population were removed from Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire, that there then would not be sufficient employment for the weavers, by allowing them to take the country labour, instead of that Irish population ? — I believe that country labour is too much supplied at present, and cannot say whether there would or would not be sufficient. 786. If the Irish were removed, would that destroy the proportion ? — I believe if the whole of the Irish were removed, it would certainly destroy the proportion ; but I think it would be much more desirable that the Scotch should be removed, inasmuch as many of them have friends in Canada. [ThefM/wing Ettimate and Statements xeere deBeered in, and read :] d .^Hh Nc loo MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. IF.5.JV«rlMoM«. I Marcb, 1 137. No. 1. ESTIMATE, (howing the Qvmntity, Price, mhI diflenni klndi of ArtklM comimmiI, or ExpciM* incurred hy employed at • Weaver, and comidered ae • iteond-rate workman, when hie average wages, during the year 1815, were £.49. a«. per annum 1 the loweet rate of wages during the year being is f. per week, and the highait rat* 18 1, per week > hours of working, flrom 14 to 16 hours per day. The number of penone in the flunily were,— I Man, whose average wages per annum were .... 1 Woman, who during the year contributed by her labour to the*) annua] income .........j 3 Children, none of whom were able to contribute any thing towardsl the annual income .........j' Total sum of wages annually received by ■ Weaver! . andhisWift • . - - - . ./ *• t, t. A 4« 5 - 5 17 - 48 'fy sells per day weaving, a I30o( Lawn Bord, a' 6{tf. per eU,'\ after deducting odd days, being annually ..... Wife employed at winding yam, a' 3d. per spindle, earning a/3 per' week, or annually .•••«••*._ 40 48 5 5 17 ANNVAI, EPPXNDITUIU; Artmlbs produced at Home, and connimed in houaebold uae: QiMBtit;. 51 quartern loaves 104 pecks, a' Sib.! per peck • J 78 pecks, a' 40lb.1 per peck •/ a' 1 d, per week - 53lb. ataaoz. . 416 quarts, a' ld.\ per quart ./ I gallon 1561b. 53 lb. ■ - 8| gallons - 5 Caru, a' la cwt. 39 lb. a' 8d. 8ilb. . . 53 lb. . . 59 lb. I gallon 5ilb. SOK . Wheat Bread • • • ' . Oatmeal ..... Potatoes ...... Vegetables of any lund, except Potatoes Butter Milk tff*. British SpiriU - Butcher Meat • » Salt . - . Oil for light (foreign) Coals . . . Soap . . . Soda . • . Starch . Barley, fbr broth Total Housdiold Expenses more generallyl < connected with Home productloos • * J Ct onial Productions: Sugar ...... Rum ...... Cofiee .--•-. Indigo ...... Total Colonial Productions • £. Foreign Productions: Tea ...... Total Household Espenies £. t. J. a 13 6 18 11 la 9 8 6 I >4 8 - 19 m. 4 11 . 8 8 1 6 9 - . 1 8 . - 4 4 — 4 4 "" «3 — 39 5 6 £. «. » 19 - 9 - >3 - a d. 3 9 3 > >9 3 3 3 a > >9 _ ■ m £. 37 7 8 ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. »oi HeuMhoid BipanMi brougbi fonrard EiptnMorCloihiaf : Woolten .... Coiiim (fbraifD) LmUmt . . . - IbM Md HabwdMlMry, nd ImIiiM in ih* foragoing chargw Total EipMM of Clothtof * i. MUctllaawMM EapMMMi Tmt tntl wtar of Airaituro Root of HouM IMroctUsM • • - Wour rem ... Church Seal*, ront • > Eduoation for Childrtn • Chargoo for Modical MttDdaiMO Total MiMoUasooui Eapo nm > i. ) Total Exfinbitobb Total Ivcomi DifmMt Tnm the aboro Slalamcnt it ■ppoort that £. I. 4. I 4 - 19 I - 7 - t \0 - - 4 « - 5 - - 5 - . 10 - - 16 - 7 10 i. ». d. 37 7 • 9 If I 7 10 8 «• 3 3 4l • - i. \n 1I15 npondod i.A. xt.^d. more than hit Income. Thi« he wae enabled i« do from having lomethiDg in hand, and alio allowing hioMelf to nm a little in anean. Mr. W. a. Norlkkmui, nicOBfl and ZXPfNDtTURK of Mid Family in i8a0: One Man wearing a ii{oo Lawn Bord, •' i|rf. per dl« 5} ell* per dajr oTl 16 houre length, being annually .^. ...•./ A Wife winding yam at a reduction, earning annually Three Children to lupport, who earn nothing ■ • • • • Total yearly Income Espended <&r Oatmeal, Potatoei , Salt, and other Food - ■owett expenee for wear an other chargea connected Lowett expenee for wear and tear of weaving materiale. aodl 1 with working, a 1/3 weekly ./ £. I, d. 13 10 - 3 5- Leaving fot Houee.rent, Clothing, direct Tasea, Sleknew, Birthi,') ^ BuriSf, Beligioua and Moral Infraction, lie. he. ke. - • •} £. I. d. 15 15 - 3 >5 «« ig to 10 15 15 3 >5 >o N. J}.— It ii impoiiible to detail the espenditure of i><9, ProviiloM being procured by trifle*, and many mean ahifU had recoune to, to perpetueta exiftMce. AVERAGE PRICE of the following Article* durin|t the Year* ARTICLES. Oatmeal, per peek of 8 lb. • Barley, per lb. Potatbe*, per peck of 4 lb. • Beef, per lb. of aa^ oa. MHteet Bread, per quartern loaf Butter, per lb. of at 01. Salt, per lb. Soap, per lb. Ceilf,! J per cart of 1* cwt. Sugar, per lb. Tea, per 0*. Britidi Spirit*, per gallon Coiw,perlb, 550. 18151 £. I. - I - I - IS .. 9 d. 6 3 11 7 11 4 •* 10 9 5 N3 18*6 i - 1 d. 9 3 II 8 10 U 9 h a :i loa MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ^, ■« k SuiGiiicnt, No. 'J. ly. S. NorlUonu. TIIF, folIuwinK it • Liil of the WOHK of ao WEAVKflS, lak«n u Ihry wtr* inMriti) in Um '^ ' ' ^^ DiMik* »f a curmin Wurvliouar. * Mafrli, Dcicriiilion of work, Light Mualini, fVutn ■ i«** la • n^- RmJ. N' llfUi w alVtf,. A mom uf C*rnlii|, REMANM. uflbcWib Jfnim To £. s. J. October • »7 November 15 — «4 - 15 11 » • 4 ^ ' * i - 17 8 i^ uaa — • 4 « II > 4 4 iti^ 0>0 — IS — II 30 > 7 A OM — II — 4 94 « • 4 0>3 — 10 — II 3« - ».l • .« 4 <« B K <)i> M. 7 — II 3S 1 10 5 J ?^ ii = Uo8 — — 1 — 10 aO 3A - 13 1 > 4 4 *ri" 907 .. October • a8 38 I 10 s 3-3 l§i'': 001 — 3 — 8 - 18 1 iH-di 8(M September 3 3 30 — 10 — 11 — 7 38 39 32 - 15 a 1 10 6 1 13 6 893 — 3" — 7 38 « 4 4 801 30 — 11 4» > 7 5 6j8 •5 «5 - Statement, No. 3. Weaver in Anderston, after beina two weeks out of employment, had the good fortune to procure for work a Double Damuk Shawl Trom on the ai»i October, and finiahed it on the l8lh November, iSaC, being 4 weeks. Go nils, a' sd. per ell, amounts to r Deduct for Drawboy's wages, 9/ per week Loom rent. Dressing, &c. i/O • d* .% Iicaving him for four weeks subsistence ii Statement, Ho. 4. Three Cases— of First, Second and Third-rate Workmen) employed ai the beat of light Fancy Work.— Taken from the Warehouse Books. From 4 May to 10 November 1896, Peing 97 weeks— average 6/ weekly From flo July to 1 j November i8a6, Deiog 17 weeks — average 4/7 weekly from 3 May to 15 November 1836, Being 38 weeks— average 3/3 t. t. tf. m 6 - 1 >7 1 • 1 10 9 a 1 I I 9 1 3 t. 8 9 4 r 19 t 1 1 'I 1 9 £. 3 >7 10 { 1 19 6" . 1 4 9 1 £. 4 10 3 TK- I'') OS F-MIfiRATION FROM THE UNITED KIKODoM tSsr loi Statement, No. 5. i»* J/4 Weaver, rnidinf ia Sampton'i L«nil, ChpiiMide-tircet /^nlltnton, wri Jmob«I •' 1 1(/. par air FuiUhti • w«b uf I'lj j clli lung in 4 wvekt luiit :| tin lO''• , Uil for light, (ill. per waak To support himicif, • Wife and two Children • m • £. 1 1, ,1 £. ,. d. i 71 ,'f>^ !• ' ■ » - « 3 - 8 • £. y » ■3 3^ Mr. H; a. Aer iMmm. ^_ , — ; I March. lit?- Ai neither wife nor children earn any thing, thv wholf fiiinily muit be aupportcd on fl/ 11 per * wavk, for which lum they can procure— £. I. il. One pock of inferior Meal ........ Ono peck of Poiatoei Coale, 4i II worki every lawful day (Vom 7 o'clock In the morning till to o'clock at night, ■ubtiiting upon half a pound oimcal and one pound of potatoei. The above statement can b« attested by a number of icspectablo householders in the neighbourhood. • Statement, No. 6. *' COPY of a LETTER firom n respectable Agent in the Country, to his Manufacturer. " Sir, " AoRiEABLa to your request by my friend on Friday, I hove taken a view of the Wages of 11 ordinary Weavers during 3 months, commdicing loth August and ending loth November i8a6; and to make the Statement as correct as iioMible, from the various descriptions of work done here (though all are allowed to be nearly alike paid) yet there is a difference in those with mounting, or in other words, fancy lappets, with those lap|icts that are only pliiin. I have taken part of each description, and done by married, and C unmarried persons, and find the Weekly Average to be only f «. (>ekly, only 4s. ijd.; ana there Were none of tha above Apprenticea. (signed) " Agent." Statement, No. 7. in the employ of weaves an 11** heavy Check, is tjlrit-rale workman, and generally toils 16 hours per day; has i|(/. per ell, each web 1G8 ells long; can finish 16 webs in the year. The produce for winding to each web is 44. 8 1^.— Has a Wife and 3 Children, Yearly Income Rent Loom expenses, at i/O weekly Police dues . - . Road money . . • Water money * . . 3 8 - 3 18 - -46 - a - - 5 - Leaving for Subsistence and Clothing ig 8 7 17 6 11 la '.vl 550. N4 104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Statement, No. 8. INCOME and EXPENDITURE of a Family, the Man employed a* an Auutant Tenter : Year 1836. Quantity. EXPENDITURE. INCOME. £. /. rf. 78 pecks, «■ 1/8 78 d« - - 365 quarts 53 quarterns • 86 lbs. >' 8d. 84 cwt. a' 5/6] po5 dition better, that is, of advancing the means as a loan, and that we would re- pay it. 793. Have you any means of ascertaining to what extent you would be able to make a repayment? — According to the correspondence we have with those that have gone before, and the personal knowledge of some that have recently come home to take away their families in the spring, we have every reason to hope that we will be most successful ; indeed most of those that have gone out before were weavers, and they state in their letters, that now they are almost independent; I would name one person, who was not accustomed to out-doors labour, of the name of Carswell, he went out to the township of Ramsey in the year i8il, he has been there since; he said he had eight dollars when he left Greenock to go out on his passage ; he was fifteen-pence in debt when he was established upon his land ; with the Government assistance, and v. ith his own perseverance, he has accumulated a good stock on hia . ground. 794. What is his stock worth ? — I never heard it estimated, but be said he had as much subsistence as nould serve him for two years; and he sold as much as carried him home, and to take out his family in the spring ; he was single-handed ; he had eighteen acres cleared ; and he said ^at had he had a family and ^n oblige^ . to. apply himself more, he would have succeeded far beyond that. . ^ 795. How lung has he been out r — About six years. 796. If you were not called upon to pay one farthing of interest upon the money applied to your emigration, for sevrn years, you would feel no doubt of your being perfectly enabled to do it after that time ? — None at all. 797. When you say that you have no doubt that you should be perfectly able to repay the money advanced, have you any idea of the amount you should be required to make the repayment of? — We have always roundly stated the expense to be at twenty pounds a head, but this was taken from calculations of the former settlers ; from the circumstances of the times, we consider that it may be still less. 798. Supposing it were fou'^ i that a man and a woman and three children could not be located with advantage, having all that assistance which you express a wish to have an opportunity of receiving, and of ultimately repaying at a less sum than 100/. would you feel any objection to bind yourselves at the end of seven years, not paying any thing during that period, to pay 5 /. per cent on that money, as a return for the money advanced to you in money or in money's worth? — No objection; the only diiBculty we see in repaying in money, is the want of a ready market, but if Government would take it in grain, it would be very beneficial to us. 799. Supposing that money should not be forthcoming at that time, would you have any objection to bind yourself to repay in grain or produce 5/. per cent upon the money so advanced for you ? — None at all ; we would be happy on such condition to obtain it. 800. Do you think, from the information you have received, that you would be exposed to any thing like inconvenience after the termination of seven years, in paying in grain or in money that amount? — No ; as I said before, from our correspondence with those who have gone out, we feel certain that, with proper industry, we would be able to repay it without any difficulty at all ; and indeed we consider that in less than twenty years we would be able to redeem the principal. 801. Have you made any inquiries with regard to the demand for labour in the Uqited States ? — I know some that have gone out to the United States lately, and they went as tradesmen, to work at their trade ; in some places the demand is pretty good, in others it is not so ; but the wages of a weaver there are below a common labourer's, and in that case we consider that, with the tide of emigration directed to the United States, we would be obliged to work nt our trade, and carry the evil along with us of a multiplication of hands in that trade. 802. Supposing you had your choice, either to incur the debt of 20/. a head to be located in Canada, or to have assistance given you to the extent of 5/. a head, merely to emigrate and to make the best of your way wherever there was a demand for labour throughout the United States, which would you prefer? — 1 would prefer the Government debt of 20/. to repay it; there are a number that are so tired out with commercial life, indeed most of the emigrants are so tired out with commercial life, that they would not, I believe, accept the gift of 5 /. to go to the United States to follow their own occupation, but in general they would accept the Government grant, because they would consider that under Government they would be more successful and sure than by taking their chance. 550. ^ O 803. Are and Janui lyUtoH. 1 March, 1817. 4 '■» io6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Joibi Tmt and Jamti WUion. \. ., ^ 1 March, 803. Are the weavers aware of the nature of the labour of a new settler? — They are perfectly aware of the great hardships they miist encounter in the first two or three years. 804. Do you think they will make good fellers of heavy wood, and that they will be able to stump up roots and clear land ?— A good many of them have been accustomed to out-door labour ; and during last summer a good number were em- ployed in breaking stones, a species of labour harder than that of felling trees, and if they can exert themselves in one way they will do it in another. 805. From your general knowledge of the feelings of the persons wishing to emigrate, in Glasgow and its neighbourhood, on the whole, are you disposed to think they would rather incur ,a debt of 20/. a head, or take a smaller sum, and be left to shift for themselves throughout the continent of America?— I could take upon myself to say, they would rather accept the 20/. a bead, tlian take the j/. 806. You have stated, that several persons have gone from that part of the country to Canada already, as emigrants ; what sum of money have tliey usually carried with them ? — I could not answer that 807. You talked of some Government assistance being given to a person that was fifteen-pence in debt upon his arrival at his location ; do you know what the nature and extent of that assistance was? — ^They paid their own passage from Greenock to Montreal ; and there were three instalments given them by Government, of eight pounds a head. 808. In the case of this man that was fifteen-pence in debt when he arrived upon his location, what was the sum that he received from Government? — He received eight pounds besides, but when he was located upon his land he was fifteen-pence in debt ; but he had one or two instalments from Government after that, which enabled him to live. 809. What was the sum total of th^ assistance he received from Government? — Eight pounds, and implements. 810. And any stock ? —No. .-»- 81 1. No pig or cow ? — Nothing whatever of that kind. ' ' '» '"' " * ■ 812. No food? — He had five pounds in money after he was located upon hjs land, to purchase food for the first year. 813. Suppose a manufacturer was going to Canada, be would sell off his furni- ture and his loom, and what he had in his house ; how much do you suppose he could raise in that way? — There was a sale of weavers' implements and household furniture, about two or three weeks ago, in the village of Govan ; I think the seques- tration cost about two or three pounds, and the money produced by the selling of the articles was \2s. A loom, which every weaver must have, and materials along with it; which would cost 5 /. about three or four years ago, sells now, if put up to sale, sometimes as low as ^d. and sometimes at 3«. ; but they cannot get above \os. in any case. 814. What would he get for the other articles of furniture in his bouse? — There is hot one among fifty that can say the furniture there is their own. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. 3 March, 1857. Sabbati, S* die. Martii, 1827. Alexander Carlisle Buchhnan, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 815. YOU are generally acquainted with the circumstances of the trade in the carrying of passengers between this country and the United States, as well as between this country and Canada? — From Ireland I am iwrfectly. 816. Have you made any comparison between the expense that will be occasioned by the restraints proposed in this Act, which has been laid before the Committee as a substitution for a former Act, and the expense occasioned by the Act of the year 1825 P — I have. 817. What would be the difference of expense between tlie two Acts? — About 12«. 6d. for each passenger. '* 818. What do you consider would be the expense at present? — It is now perhaps 40*. for an adult, or 3/. 819. From what port to what port? — From Londonderry and Belfast, which are the great ports of emigration to our colonies; to the United States it is about 5/. or6A 820. What would be the expense of the poorest class of passengers from Belfast to Quebec? — About 50*., finding their own provisions. . • • ' ' - 8ai. By -i- ^/Jf >* ^ f^. ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 107 831 • By this Act, a certain quantity of provisions is necessary ?— They are ; but the representations were so numerous from the poor people, that the provisions prescribed by the Act were so expensive, that tlie officers of His Majesty's Customs saw that it would in effect almost prohibit emigration if it were enforced, and they took upon themselves, I believe, to wave that part of the Act. 8az. Do you consider that in point of fact, with respect to emigrants going from Ireland general' -. the provisions of that Act have virtually been waved ? — Not generally; *h< 'jiction as to numbers, and a proper supply of water, surgeon, &c. was pari -rly attended to by the officers of Customs, and although they waved that c'ai^.'e respecting a certain description of provisiops, they generally made inquiry into the supply the passen^rshad. 833. Have you an opportunity of knowing that to be the case with respect to the south of Ireland as well as the north ? — I have not. 834. Is it your impression that it has been so in the south ?— I should think it has been. I dare say I have accompanied 6,000 emigrants to America myself, within the last ten years. 825. In those cases, the provisions of that Act were not enforced ? — Not to any great extent ; it has been the custom, for the last six or seven years, for the passengers to find their own provisions ; formerly the ships found them. 826. Then in point of fact, the passengers themselves took that quantity of provisions which they thought necessary ? — They did. 827. Do you imagine that the amount of provisions proposed to be required by this new Act, is greater than what is taken by the poorest of the emigrants who pro- vide for themselves ? — I do not think it is near so much. 828. The question applies to the quality as well as the quantity ? — I understand it so. 829^ Do the emigrants take pork or meat, for instance r — Very seldom; they take a little bacon. 830. Have the provisions which the Act prescribed with respect to tonnage, been actually observed ? — They have. 831. The Custom-house officers have uniformly taken care, although they have relaxed with respect to provisions, to have the proportions of passengers to tonnage preserved ? — ^They examine the list of passengers going out, to see that it corresponds with the licence ; the licence is granted in proportion to the registered tonnage. 832. Is it the custom after the Customhouse-officer has examined the list, that passengers are taken off the coast? — I do not think it is ; I have heard of trifling instances of the kind ; the price paid for passage to our own colonies is so trifling, that a captain of a ship would hardly take the trouble. 833. Did you ever know it to happen in any'vessel which you yourself were on board ? — Never ; I have repeatedly seen some relanded that have hid away on board ; on the captain examining on leaving port, if he found he had any above his number, he would hove to, and put them on shore. 834. What practical inconvenience do you anticipate from allowing passengers to take with them such provisions as they may think fit, without any legislative enact- ment on the subject? — I think that the description of emigrants from Ireland particularly are very ignorant, and they have latterly got such an idea of the quick dispatch to America, that they wquld take a very short supply ; they hear of packetii coming over from New York to Liverpool in twenty or twenty-five days, and many of them come into Derry, calculating upon a twenty days passage, and without a quantity of oatmeal and other necessaries in proportion, and they are obliged to provide themselves with a larger quantity before they go on board. 835. Have you ever known any inconvenience actually to arise in consequence of a deficiency of provisions? — I have not known any myself, but formerly I have understood there were very great privations suffered, and a great many lives lost, before the Passengers Act passed. 836. Is that an opinion which you have heard from so many quarters as to leave no doubt in your mind of it being the fact ? — I am perfectly satisfied of it. 837. Have you not stated that these legislative regulations have, in point of fact, not been adhered to ? — They have not, as regards provisions. 838. But although they were not adhered to, they were not so entirely evaded as not to leave them in considerable operation ? Decidedly not. 839. Supposing a passenger, under the expectation of a quick passage, had brought qnly half the food which this new Act contemplates, what would have taken place f5,'50- O 2 in A. C. Bueiamm, 3 March, i8t7. ^ d^ to8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE A. C. Butkanan, tsq. 3 March, 1817. in that Instance ; is any inquiry made by the captain of the passenger, as to the quantity of provision he has? — Always. 840. If the quantity of provisions ho had brought was manifestly under what was necessary for an average voyage, would not the captain insist on his talcing more ?— Decidedly, he would not receive him without. 841. With respect to the tonnage, will you state to the Committee the reason why you are of opinion that there is a necessity for requiring the height of five feet six inches between the decks, and for prohibiting all stores from being placed be- tween the decks? I consider it indispensable in a ship carrying at the rate of one passenger to every two tons, to reserve the entire space between decks for their ac- commodation, and the deck of the ship not being at least five feet and a half, it would not be proper to have it double birthed ; and a ship carrying at the rate of one passenger to every two tons, will require to be double birthed, and to have six persons in each birtb< 842. Are the double-decked merchant vessels usually of that height between the decks ?— Generally more ; there are very few that are not. 843. Then have you any reason to anticipate that ships would be built for the express purpose of carrying out emigrants, which would be of a less height between decks than the ordinary merchant vessels, or that the vessels that would be used for that purpose would probably be old merchant vessels ? — Not at all ; there are very few ships that trade to America that are not five feet and a half high between decks, and over. 844. Then do you conceive that there is any necessity for any regulation en- forcing that which actually exists without any regulation? — The reason of that clause is, that ships carrying one to every five tons would be saved the necessity of any delay in making an application for a licence ; they could take their one to five tons, and proceed on their voyage in the ordinary way ; whereas if they take in a greater number than that, some restriction should be imposed. 845. Do you imagine that there will be any practical inconvenience in these regulations being enforced, either at the Custom-house at the port from which they go in England, or at the Custom-house at the port. at which they land in the colony ? — ^None whatever. 846. Do ^ou consider that any expense would be incurred in consequence of those regulations, which would of necessity add to the expense of the passage ?"> None whatever. 847. Then you are of opinion, that if those regulations were, considered to be ne- cessary, there would be Ho objection against them upon the ground of any real inconvenience being sustained- by the trade in consequence of them ? — None what- ever ; I am satisfied they would bis'^pproved of, both by the emigrants and the ship- owners. . * 84S. Do you entertbin tl)e opinion, that the parties going out wbuld rather be protected. by legislation to the extent proposed, than to have no legislation upon the subject? — I iam perfectly satisfiecl they Would. 849. — Are the Committee to understand that they object very much to those extreme regulations, which make the expense of the passage beyond their means? — They have a great objection to being obliged to have a particular description of provisions, but that has been latterly dispensed with. 850. Then, in point of fact, has emigration froth Ireland been prevented, in con- sequence of that part of the Act which relates to provisions ? — I do not think it has. 851. As you have stated that the restrictions of this Act with respect to pro- visions have been virtually superseded in practice, it is presumed that emigration from Ireland cannot have been prevented by the operation of this Act? — To a very small extent; perhaps to .the amount of 100 a year or 300 a year more at the outside might have gone ; the difference can only be about 10 or 12 shillings \p the expense. I have heard a great many statements made about the Passengers Act ; as to the Act increasing the expense of passage to the United States, and amounting to a prohibition of emigration, I am satisfied that if the Act were repealed the price would not be diminished one farthing, as the American law imposes a greater limi- tation as to number than the British and other local regulations. 852. Supposing this Act were not to be passed, requiring the emigrant to take with him a certain specified quantity of food for 75 days, do you imagine that the emigrant could in prudence take a less quantity ? — I do not think he could, for I have known instances of very fast sailing ships from Liverpool being 75, 80 or 90 days ON EMIGRATfON FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 109 tkys going out to New York, and frequent instances occur of ships being 60, 70 and 80 days soing to Quebec. 853. Vou say, that you think the emigrants would not take a less quantity of pro- visions than that which is prescribed by the Act ? —I do not think they would ; they generally consult the captain ; they tell the captain of the ship what quantity they have got, and if he thinks they have not got enough, they put on board n)ore. 854. That Act provides for a certain quantity of bread, meal and flour ; is that the species of provision upon which the lower classes in Ireland live, either entirely or in a great measure? — It is generally their chief support. 855. You are not much acquainted with the outh of Ireland ? — Not particularly; I consider that oatmeal and potatoes form the principal food of the Irish peasantry generally ; I include potatoes when in proper season, say in the spring of the year, very necessary, but in case of bad weather or other casualty, oatmeal, flour or biscuit can only be depended on. i 856. You are not aware that in the south of Ireland the peasantry never taste bread from one year's end to another? — I am not aware that they never taste bread, they chiefly live on potatoes ; but this Act merely says, that there shall be that quantity of that or any other wholesome food equivalent thereto; I only submit that there should be a certain quantity of something on board, enough to keep them in lift for 75 days. 857. If there were no restriction whatever by law as to the food to be taken by the passengers, do not you think that the captain of every ship carrying out passen- gers would for his own sake take care that no person should be taken on board who had not a proper quantity of provisions? — I think \it would, or ought to do. 858. Have not you stated that that is the habit? — They generally inquire what quantity of provisions the passengers have brought ; the ship is under a very heavy responsibility ; I have known instances where the ship has taken on bqard a quantity of meal to guard against the possibility of the passengers falling short; I have done so myself, I have taken in a few tons of oatmeal, at the expense of the ship, to pre- vent any accident. 839. In case of a passenger falling short of provisions, would not the captain have to supply that deficiency? — Perhaps the captain might not have any to spare. 860. Docs the captain generally go to sea so short of provisions?— A ship going to sea in the North American trade, if she victuals at home, may take in three or four montht) provisions, but what would a redundancy of a barrel of biscuit or a barrel of meal be among 300 emigrants. 861. What is the general burthen of those ships that carry 300 persons ?— From 300 to 400 tons. ^ , 862. How many emigrants, according to the- regulations of this Act, would be shipped on board a vessel of 3^0 tons?— I have pqt on paper a few observations with respect to the points of ditference between the pfoposed Act and the former Act, which I will read to the Committee. In the first place, the proposed Act per- mits the ship to carry her full number, say^one to two tons register, children in proportion, exclusive . of the crew ; the former Act included the ci%w. Secondly, It dispenses with carrying a doctor; the. former Act imposed that necessity.' Thirdly, it permits the ship carrymg cargo, rejier^ing a sufliciency of space«- with the whole of the between-decks, for passengers, provisions, water, &c. ; the former Act pro- hibited carrying cargo, or it wai so construed by,tk'e Irish Board of Customs. Fourthly, it relieves the shipowner and captain from obnoxious and frivolous clauses and expenses that never perhaps would be resorted to, but operated iirthe calculation of a conscientious shipowner, not to permit his ship to embark ia> such trade. Fifthly, it permits the passenger or emigrant to lay in his own provisions, or to make any contract they think fit with the captain for that purpose, the captain being responsible that a sufficiency of wholesome food for 7,5 days of some kind is on board for each adult passenger ; the former Act obliged the ship to have on board a particular description of provisions, nut suited to the habits of emigrants, and of increased expense. And the proposed amended Act gives every protection to the emigrant, at the same time removing many absurd difficulties to the ship, and per- mits as many passengers to be put on board as could possibly be justified with any due regard to their health and lives. I shall state in my humbk opinion how it operates in a pecuniary way : first, a ship 400 tons by the former Act could only carry, deducting crew, about iSu adults; now 200 ; difl'erence 20, at 40 j. per head, deducting expense of water, &c. 40/. : secondly, free from expense of doctor, at kast 50/.: thirdly, giving liberty to carry cargo, is at least worth equal to 25/.: 55<^ O 3 fourthly A.C. lUq. Marrb, I St?. I •! ( :?■ '^ A. C. BMchanM, 3 March, l8i7. I « HO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE fourthly, I consider that dispensing with the obligation thai many ships are under, to put salt provisions on board to conform to old Act, althou^ not used equal with other matters, to 25/.; making a totol of 140/., which on two hundred emij^rants would be equal to I2f. or 14^. per adult; and supposing that a ship was taking in emigrants, and that plenty were offering, it would enable the ship to carry them for so much less than under the former Act, and form as much actual gain on the passage as charging so much higher, so that in fact the emigrant gets his passage for so much less, and without any loss to the ship. A ship of four hundred tons has about seventy-five feet in length of space, and twenty-six feet wide between decks ; so, to have her doubled birthed, would give you about twenty-six births aside, or fifty-two in all; and allowing six persons to each birth, would accommodate three hundred and twelve persons, which a ship of four hundred tons is permitted to carry ; say two hundred adults, with average proportion of children, would at least make (if not more) tlK number stated, and with twenty of crew, would give on board altogether 332 persons in a space about 95 feet long, 25 to 26 feet wide, and 5^ or feet high. 863. If there were no responsibility imposed upon the captains of vessels, either with respect to provisions or with respect to tonnage, are you apprehensive that captains might be found who would be willing to incur risks from which great evils might occur to the passengers ? — I am afraid many instances might occur, and unless some legislative regulation existed, I fear captains and shinbrokers would be found that would cram them into any extent, and great hardship would be likely to follow. 864. Do you know of any serious consequences that did arise previous to the passing of the Passengers Act? — I know instances where passengers were carried a thousand miles from the place they contracted for. 865. You know of cases of great individual hardship and suffering? — I do not know of any myself personally, but I have heard of several, particularly a brig from Dublin a year or two ago ; but there are positive instances of a number of lives being lost in foreign vessels going from Germaay to Philadelphia, which was the cause of the American Act being passed. 866. In the evidence taken by the Irish Committee in 1824, there is a letter printed, from you, quoting that case which you have just mentioned, of the brig William in Dublin ; do you know nothing more of it than what is stated there ? — I hav9 heard since that the captain was arrested in Quebec, and, I believe, proi ceeded against by order of the Irish Government ; it was a very flagrant case. 867. Was it a case of deficient provisions r — I do not know particularly what the causes were. 868. In what year did the Passengers Act pass, was it not 1823? — I think it was. A 869. Are you aware that 10,300 voluntary emigrants in 1 823 left Ireland for America? — I do not know the exact number; I could tell, by referring to documents, the number that left Londonderry, which is the great focus of emigration. 870. Are you not aware that in 1824, that is, the year after the Passengers Act passed, the number of 10,300 was reduced to 7,500 ? — I am not aware particularly, I think it very possible; we can always tell in the season before, in the north of Ireland, whether we are likely to have a large emigration ; it depends upon the sue* cess that the emigrants met with in the precedin^year; they write home letters, and if the season has been favourable, if there has Keen any great demand for labour, like the Western Canal, that absorbs A great many of them, they send home flattering letters, nnd they send home money to assist in bringing out their friends. 871. If the fact be as it has lieen stated, that in the year in which the Passengers Act passed, the number of emigrants uas 10,300, and the year immediately after the passing of it, it was reduced to 7,500 ; would you not be disposed to ascribe some portion of that diminution to the passing of the Passengers Act? — I think there has been more stress laid upon the Passengers Act than is warranted by the fact. ♦ 872. Do you not know enough of the labouring classes in Ireland, to know that if a person who had emigrated to Canada, one of Mr. Robinson's settlers for in- stance, were to write home and speak of his success, without explanation, it might be tlie means of inducing an emigrant to go without any capital, upon the calcula- tion that he would receive similar assistance? — Decidedly; it would operate very strongly upon them. 873. You have lately been itt communication with Lord Dalhousie ? — I have ; I left Qnohcc in November last. .4* » ..^v-. ., ■ ■ • 874. Lord 550. I ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1897, in 874. Lord Dalhousie acldreswd a letter to the Colonial Department, njiag that you wen apprised of his views upon the subject of emigration Kcnerallv ; have you» from your own observation, formed any opinion, or have you received information ' from Lord Dalhousie as to his opinion, of the consequence of emigrants landing in any part of the Canadas without the means of subsisting themselves, and dependent upon employment for their success, after such landing ? — I have had the honour of conversing a good deal on this subject with Lord DaThoutie, and I know it to be his lordship's opinion, and in which I decidedly concur, that if anv great quantity of en)igrants came out without having proper arrangements made for them previous to their landbg, and means provided for their location, he should regret it excessively, and it would be the source of great distress to tlietii and incoavenienco to the Government. 875. Your own knowledge of it will enable you to speak to the fact of emigrants landing, and suffering great distress, firom being without any means i — I cannot refer to any particular case; those that I have known, were generally of a superior description, from the north of Ireland, from Tyrone and Fermanagh ; they were men generally possessing a little property, and in any thing but a distres«ed state, 876. Do you know sufficient of the situation of the United States, to know what would be the consequence of a very unlimited body of emigrants without capital, being landed there ? — You could not land them there, the laws would prevent it 877. You do not mean to say there are not every year landed in the ports of the United States, a great number of paupers, emigrants from Ireland and England ? — I should think, very few. I should think the gre»t bulk of the emigrants that go to the United States, have friends in America ; they generally have some money. I knew an instance last year, that emigrants, perhaps to the extent of five hundred, went from Londonderry to Philadelphia and New York, and I should think out of those, near four hundred of them had their passage paid in America. 878. Do you mean to apply the same observations to Quebec ? — No ; I should think that there are many in Canada that would send for their friends from Ireland, if they had the means of remitting money to them ; but a person living in the Talbot, or other distant townships, has no wa^ of remitting five or seven pounds home. 879. Do you think that tlie Amencan Passengers Act has had any influence upon the class of emigrants that have gone there? — Decidedly; if there are two ships taking in emigrants at Derry, one taking in for Philadelphia, and the other ior Canada, the one will have quite a different class of people from the other ; in the American ship, they will be better provided and better clad. I have known owners of ships in New York pay as much as a thousand dollars for the support of pauper emigrants, previous to the American Acta. 880. Is that the case in Philadelphia, and the parts of Chesapeake ? — ^The Pas- sengers Act extends to all the states , but particular states, for instance New York, have local impediments. I do not know that local impediment extends to the Chesapeake ; but if they found in Baltimore that there tvere a great number of pauper emigrants coming in, they would very soon pass a State Act to prevent it. 881. In point of fact, can you state to the Committee that any law of that description exists in any State south of New York ?— I cannot tell decidedly. 882. When you represent that difference to exist between the class of emigrants who go to America, and the class that go to Quebec, do you mean to draw the inference, that an extension of the provisions of the American Passengers Act to Quebec would produce a similar efl'ect upon the class of emigrants who would go thither ? — If we were to restrict the emigration to Quebec, the more expensive it would be to the free emigrant; of course, the more respectable would be the class of people that would go. 883. It would have the effect, then, of keeping at home the poorest and most destitute class ? — I should think it would, decidedly. 884. Of those pauper emigrants that so arrive in the Saiot I.Awrence from Ireland, do you think any large proportion remain in the country? — ^Tbere are more remun in the country now Uian did formerly ; I should think last year there might have arrived in Quebec about 9,000 emigrants, and a great portion of those that go to Quebec make it a stepping-stone for going to the western parts of the United States ; it is the cheapert route. All those going to the back parts of Pennsylvania, bordering upou Lake Erie, and to Ohio, take the route of Quebec and Montreal, from the great facility of transport 885- Are you not of opinion that if a great body of pauper emigrants were taken from Ireland to the Saint Lawrence, by tar the greater nu(nbcr would be induced, 550. _ ^; O4 by A.C. E^. 3 March, 1817. I \ ■ . >^i- iia MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE , C Buchanan, Uq. .■I .^ . < 3 March, 1II37. [! I by various circumstances, to go to tlie United States, and would not settle in the British Colonies? — I do not think there is so much of that feeling as there wat, ' nor in fact is there that inducement. 886. Do not you think that a demand for labour on public works occurring in the United States, would attract a great number? — It has attracted a great number, but the great Western Canal is nearly finished, and there will be a great number of hands ready to go from that canal, to carry on any new work. 887. Is there not generally a great disposition in the Irish emigrants to ^ . Kublic works, or to towns and manufactures, rather than to cultivate the soil ' Tot wiiere there is a family ; if the emigrant is a single man, he goes wherever "^ can get a day's work, and at public work their pay is generally in cash. 888. Supposing the case of a pauper emigrant landing at Quebec, upon the speculation of going to the Western States without any means, and without any capital, how is he to accomplish it? — If he has any work he will avail himself of that work, but unless theru is a demand for his labour, he must remain there and depend upon charity ; all those originally thut intended going to the States or to Quebec, are provided with money, which is generally sent them by their friends. 889. Do you know a charitable institution existing at Quebec, called the Quebec Emigration Society? — I have heard of it. 890. In the year 1823, of 10,358 emigrants that went out, all those who were destitute were supplied with the immediate necessaries of life by that society, at the charge of 550 /. ? — I should think that merely referred to those that loitered there during the winter, just the mere offal of the emigration. 891. You have stated, that Lord Dalhousie has complained of many of the emigrants having arrived in a bad state ; do you understand that many of those persons who were in that state, have been persons who had friends in that country, and who had been induced by Vhe representations of their friends to come out ? — Those that have gone out to their friends have generally had money remitted by their friends in America, or arrangements made to carry them out ; for instance, a person who has gone out to New York or to Upper Canada, writes to his friend in Ireland to come out lu him, and if lie thinks he has not the means of coming out, he either sends him money, or make some arrangement at his place of landing to assist him. 892. Does a great portion of the emigrants consist of persons of that class ? — The greater proportion that go from the part of the country that I am acquainted with, are people in general of some property, and who have friends before them. 893. Is not the proportion of persons that are landed at Quebec in a state of destittition, very small ? — Very small, from the reason I have stated ; in fact we cannot call the emigrants that pass through Quebec a pauper emigration. 894. If the governor in Canada had the power of making a small advance, to the extent of 20 j. or 25 s. to each person well disposed .to work, lo carry him up the country, do you suppose that a relief to that extent might remove the pressing scenes of distress to which you allude ?— It might with the present extent of emi- gration, but if it were to go to any large extent, the thing would be quite impossible, and gfeat distress would ensue. 895. Do you consider that the class of persons who loiter about the town of Quebec taking any casual employment they can get, are generally a very improvident class of emigrants? — It is generally the worst class of emigrants that loiter about the towns. 896. Do you not think that if that worst class of emigrants were taken up the country and located and assisted, they would become steady and industrious persons? — No doubt if they were taken up the country immediately after they were landed, they would become valuable settlers. 897. Does much inconvenience arise from many of the settlers arriving at the bad season of the year ? — They seldom arrive in a bad season, they, generally arrive in May, June and July. 898. Would there not always be a certain number, port at wliicli ?ry small extent some years ago in the north of Ireland, especially in the case of servants, but it is entirely done away with. 905. Do you think it is at all the practice at present?— I believe not in the north of Ireland. 906. Are you able to say whether it is the case in any other part of Ireland ? — I think not. 907. Do you conceive that captains very often break their engagements with poor emigrants, as to the ports at which they are to be landed ? — I have knowi? instances of passengers beint; landed at St. John's in New Brunstvick, who had engaged their passage for Philadelphia. , C. BuckanM, E«q. 3 Murrli, 1*17. 7« Marti*, 6" die Martii, 1827'. Witliam Bowman Felton, Esq. called in; and Examined. . 908. YOU were examined before the' Committee of this House which sat upon the subject of Emigration in last year ?— I was. 909. The Committee understand that you have b ..m in Canada sincci and that you took out with you the Report of that Committee, and the evidence annexed to It, so as to have an opportunity of informing yourself with respect to all rhe details mentioned in tliat evidence, during the course of the last winter? — 1 .have had oppor- tunities of verifying many of the facts detailed in that evidence* and I have had occasion, not only from what I have seen in Lower Canada, but in the adjoining parts of the United States, to be confirmed in my opinion oJC the ability of a poor settler, possessing health and industry, to purchase wild lands, pay for them with facility, and accumulate property in the course of a very few years. 91 o. Are you aware that the part of the subject of Emigration upon which it is perhaps most necessary to obtain accurate and conclusive information, is that which relates to the progressive success of the emigrant, involving the ques- tion of his entire capacity or probable inability, at the termination of the seventh year of bis location, to pay five per cent interest, redeemable at any time at bis own option by a payment of the. principal of 100/. or ait^ less sum which may have been advanced to him, for the expenses' of his emigration? — I am per- fectly aware that some doubts are entertained upon that subject on this fide the Atlantic ; but I ain also equally aware, th^t.^«re are no doubts whatever enter- . 550. ■'^" fc^ V : taincd fy. B. Fthon. E*q. 6 March. 1827. r!j !i 1 ! 114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE r B F.lion, tnincl upon tl.e subjecl on the other «ido of the Atlantic, by practical men intimalelj l-.iqi ' ncnuainttii with the interior of the provihcc. ^^ . "J , , . If an einiKrant, being an able-l,.«i.eil nmn. and landing with « wile and three « M.rrh. children, be removed from the pluce of U» landing to tlie place ot hii location. '•'7- located on a lot of loo acres ol average good land, provided with a».i»tance in buildina aloe-house, f.niiished with nccensary implcmenls, placed under a qualified deareeof suiHirintendence. and rationed for a year or sixteen months do you be- liove that he would, at tiic expiration of seven years troin the time of bis location, be enabled to execute the terms stated in the last query, wiUiout any sort of dift. cultyorinconvenience?-Tojud«e of the future by the past and by my own ex pe- rience I should say there is not room for the smallest dpubt m to the capability of the settler not only to pay interest, to commence at the expiration of seven years, but of his beini! able in the majority of casus to pay the principal in the course of that time if bethinks proper to do so. I hove sold a great deal of land in the pro- vince of Lower Canada to Irish and Enj^iih settlers, at the rate of from three- quarters of a dollar up to two dollars per acre ; the description of persons to whom I have made those sales was perhaps not the best calculated to derive the (greatest or the speedist returns from the land purchased, but, notwithstanding, I have never yet experienced any difficulty in collecting the interest of the capital from those men, at the expiration of the second, third and fourth year, and in the majority of coses before the expiration of the third year 1 have received part of the principal in payment ; it is true, that all those payments huve been made in pro- duce of the soil, in stock or grain, but they were equivalent to money or money's worth, and if not absolutely paid in cash, if a reduction be made of about ao per cent, it would exhibit what would be actually a cash payment ; but I conceive that none of the settlers to whom I have sold lands commenced their operations under circumstances so favourable to them as those predicated upon in the question pro- posed ; in the majority of cases which have fallen under my experience, the settlers who commenced their operations were burtbened with a debt, in many eases amounting to twenty pounds a family* and they have not only been able to make the payments of interest agreed upon with me, but generally to clear the debt which they had incurred, in the course of tlie first three years ; this debt had lieen incurred for the purchase of provision and implements to enable them to commence theit operations. I am so convinced of the great facility which settlers enjoying the advantages proposed to be aftbrded to them, possess, to make their payments in the terms prescribed, that I should have no hesitation whatever in binding myself to the extent of lo,ooo/. to make up any deficiency in the payment of the first yeer'b interest, in either of the two provinces, provided that a proper degree of judgment be exhibited in the location of the settlers on the land. gi3. In the cases in which you mentioned yourself to have sold land, bad the settlers any capital to begin with themselves? — None whatever; in the majority of cases they borrowed provision and implements from the neighbouring storekeeper, to enable them to commence their operations, expecting to pay the amount of those advances in the produce of their industry, in the shape of ashes or provi- sion, in the course of the next two or three years. 913. Was the land which you sold to them wholly uncleared ? — Perfectly in a state of wilderness ; and in the majority of cases not even on a road. 914. You mentioned there being a debt of twenty pounds for each family ih several cases; is that the twenty pounds upon which you say they were able to pay interest, exclusive of the interest which they owed to you? — The debt of ao/. to which I alluded, was incurred for the purchase of provision and implementa. and therefore was a debt owing to a storekeeper, or a dealer in those articles, in which I have no concern directly or indirectly, and upon which they paid him interest . till the principal was returned. 91J. Can you then state distinctly to the Committee what was the amount of interest which each family v/ai able to pay and actually did pay after two or three years, beginning with no funds whatever? — In order not to mislead the Committee as to the exact description of the parties who have fallen under my obaervatioit, it is necessary to say that the majority of them had passed from twelve to fifteen months in the province, working as labourers, and therefore they bad acquired some experience of the mode of proceeding tliat was most advantageous for cleiU'ing up n-aste lands ; but in very few instances had they any accumulation of capital, on the contrary, in the majority of instances, they were obliged to borrow provision, as I before stated, to enable them to commence their operations; aiid that ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa?. n; that admnce of provition nnd tool« wu m\*ay made to Umoi on llm laith of Ihcir previou* fiood chwrai'ti-r, obtained dtiiiriK u rnidcncv lur tlf |*riTcditiit l««r|vi> ntontlw in thctnwnsliip, und upon wliicli mu> luundtd llio ■•Mirunct) ul ilicir iiicliiia lion as well ns aliilily to muku tl>e rc|)iiyiii('nt. At lo llic exltnt oi ilw inUirttt Mhich Uwy had annually to pay, 1 should tay that in nine caMt o payment of the principal or of the capital. It is nccetiary for Ilie Committee to understand, that in all those cases those operations took place in a partially settled country, whereas the settlers established under the patronage of Government have been sent into a wildemesl. Now, iiithough the land occupied by the settlers to whom I first alluded was itself u wilderness, yet, relative to the adjoining country, it was more favourably circumstanced than the lands whicli must necessarily be occu- pied by any emigration carried on on an extensive scale by the Govvrnmeiit. 918. For what reason do you consider the emigrants sent out by Government to be, as respects re-pay ment, in u more favourable situation than tliose to uhum you nave alluded? — Becouse I conceive that the very circumstance of their being placed in a body will give a facility to all their operations, which an individual, even settling in a partially settled country, upon a wild lot. does not enjoy ; and that one year it or sixteen montiis provision being furnished to them upon the spot where their labour is required, is in point of worth equivalent to double its value, to the settler establishing himself in a partially settled country, who must necessarily lose a great deal of time, not only in seeking his provision if he has to purchase it, but most frequently in labouring for it at a distance from his home. 919. Mii^ht not those two advantages be united? — It is impossible ; the Crown does not possess land which they can control for the purposes of emigration, in a partially settled countiy. 930. Are not those lands which have formoriy been granted, subject to the con< dition, that they shall be leased out?— As far as respects the Lower Province, the most fertile portion of it, lyiuf^ south of the river St. Ijiwrence, and covering a surface of about 3,000,000 ot acres, is completely locked up from appliration to any useful purpose, in consequence of having been long since granted to persons who have not performed, or have very partially performed, the settling duties required of them in their patents. 921. Are you so satisfied of the ability of the emigrant to make such payment, that if individuals were prepared to advance money upon such security, you would feel yourself justified in recommending them to do it* -I have already replied to the substance of that question in an answer I previousi/ gave, but 1 feel myself perfectly justified in saying, that I should have no objection whatever to recommend aq investment of capital to any extent u)x>n to secured a transaction ; and I think the greater the scale on which the operation is conducted, the greater probability is there of success attending it. 922. Do you feel so certain upon that point as to be prepared to recommend persons in England to advance capital in that manner, taking tlie land as a security ? — I do certainly, for this reason, if the emigration be conducted upon just principles and upon a scale sufficiently large, one of the immediate effects of the location of a large body of men in a particular district is a rise in the value of the land, not only which they occupy, but which surrounds them on \ivcry i>ide ; now, this takes place independent of the wish even of the settler who is employed upon the land : and therefore, even alkxring that one-third of the settlers fail in tulfilling their engagements, yet I ma penuaded that that disposable third urill always sell, in 550.> P 2 a period r. A frltm, .Ii7. ii6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITl'EB w. B. FtllM, • .Marrb, lit;. I' > ' 11 a period ihort of the Mjven or nine yetr; for niore iHm »ofttlcnt to evtw M advance* made on account of it, even witlioiit any improvenKnitt made upon it ; but if any improvemcntH arc rnnde upon ilic iaml, they will of rourtc ^ive an additiunai value to it, to the extent of tho(H: iniprovenienti. Dut I wi»h lu make it intclli||ible to the Committee, that I am perfectly convinced that the mere Hmj in tiic value of the land, which will then becoeiie a laleable commodity, will of ittelf aflbrd titem •uflkicnl aMurance of their capital being returned tn them. 0J3. Suppoiing thc«o term* of payintnt to be perfectly undentnod by the emigrant, and conient(;d to by him under liia signature or mark attaclied to a priiitMl agreement embodying tlioie tiTmi, do you consider that there would be any diflkulty in inducing him to pay, or in levying the amount ot such payment ? — It it fair to apprise the Comtnittee, that the claims which ttie Govemiiicnt have upon tiia subject of the provinces for lands, quit-rents and so forth, have l»ecn wild land, at the time of his settlement; in that case of course he is not culled upon to pay five per cent interest upon any thing except upon the mere value ol the land, because, by the terms of the arrange- ment, he is prepared with capital to do justice to that land ; having stated that as the law at present in Lower Canada, are the Committee to understand that you think it will be impracticable to collect a quit-rent upon that principle r — Quite the reverse ; the very circumstance of making these quit-rents redeemable, alters their character altogether, they are no longer considered as quit-rents, they are in fact interest for the purchase-money of the land. There is another point that should be considered by the Committee, that is, that it is judicious to make the settler upon the land feel that he purchases the land, and gives something for it ; for I have bad occasion, from many years experience, to nnd out, that an European upon bia arrival in the country, is very much in the habit of slighting any thing that be acquires easily; and if a lot uf good land be offered '. injn 1 '. rrthing, the proba- bility is, he will purchase the adjoining lot, though not or' r 1 'rior quolitv «i ?i. posing there must be some reason for the price attri ii.t1 f -> 1 ; .; I therei. ;» am of opinion that in all cases the Government should iiibi.A upon receiving for its land something equivalent to its actual worth in the market. 925. Had you an opportunity, when in Canada, of ascertaiDing the opinion of many persons there, who were competent to give an opinion upon the subject upon which you have been examined to-day, and who were aware of the nature of the ''.videncr given by colobia! witnesses before the Emigration Committee of last year ? -! an , eliend t'r;, in thte absence of facts and experience, the opinions ot the ir.f^! iespectabl'i people in Lower Canada are yet afloat as to this subject; my '>y lion is foun i.* J upon my own observation, an observation which very few of iU. I'espectale part of the community in Lower Canada have an opportunity ot enjoying ON EMIGRATION FHOM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 1817. iiy enjoying, not being rciidn.i, nor in Uw Iwbit of penetrating intu the interior of the province. 036. It not the oriK'ri.l iicreko of an emignint umier thoie cireunMfauicee ■ fact quite noluriout in Tower ('anad*?— It it pcrwclly well known; there it ■ grncral iinprauion prevalent in lj>*tr Canada, that thie uiajorit^ of thoae wtller* will gu over to tite States ; but tliose who are better acquuinted with I>k) interior ot tlie province are aware tliri' hat contequcnco will not follow from tlie ettabliih* nient of lho»o itctllcrs upon kiv.H l»tid, and with tlie aatislance that if* proposed to be given to them; the general impresaiu*! it, that they will go over to the State*, where they can get lo uiiirh hii-^icr vta^vn than they can c'X|H;ct, after their twelve or fifteen months probation m province hax eipircd; but thi» iinprcssiuii is founded upon no facts, it is tu)iii(l«d upon HKH/tnfKions which Itave yet to be verified. 997. Do voii think that oiii: iiindrcd acics >t land, part of M clonrcd, havMig a log-house built upon it, and roads iniulu to it, and situR(<*d i» the midst o( a iww population, would be ample security fur -«icli interest, and ultliri*tely for the prir cipal? — I have already given a decided c|iinioii in fuvuor of that. 938. Do you think the security so gomi that money Liiuld l>e raised either in Canada or in the United States upon such a security ottered ? — No money could !ie raited in Canada, because there it no capital there disposable ; as to 'he L'nited frtutet, I liave no doubt that under certain circumstances money couli be ruiited ii ' I that security, provided the faith of the British Government wer« pledged for liie due execution of all the terms of the contract. y2(j. When you say it fculd be raited under certain circumstum-es, do yuu mean (hat to apply to the faith of the Government being pledged, or to nny thii»g elie P— > The faith of the Government being pledged to the extent as to whicli omigrulion it to be carried, and to the judgment which should be exercised in its direction, tor those are circumstances which the capitalist would take into conMiditratiou previous to advancing hit money. 930. Thote are circumttances however which you mutt have taken into con- •idcration, when you say that you could recommend persons in lli "liind 10 lend money upon the faith of that security ? — I atsume thote circumstai: es ; I asiume that the Government will be governed by a lound judgment in the ilTectioii of thit emigration, and that it will bo continuous for at least eight or tpn year^ 931. What are the |>eculiar circumttances which you uasutue uh lecessary to warrant a capitalist in advancing his money ? — I assume that the Gove mnent shall carry on the emigration to a given extent or for a given number of yem -. .sufficient to cover the whole surface of the district intended to be occupied with ?cttlert, as far at the quality of the soil will permit their locution. By a given district. I assume auch a portion of the turface of the country at, being in communication < ith water carriage, ahall enable the tettlers at some future time to carry their surplus produce to one of the great markets of the province, and of suiBcient extent to | ..ttit'y the provincial legislatures in afTording them the protection which every other district or county enjoys ; I mean that they shall be settled in so great masses, as u enable them at some future period to have the power of makinf| their own road luws and other internal regulations, according to the mode which is foUowvjd in other parts of the province ; that may generally include a surface of ten or twelve to»i ships, each township being eight or nine miiea square, the whole containing aboui three thousand lots, upon which about six thousand families may be located ; as I con> ceive that, under thote circumstancea, a population so established will m the i ourse of a few years flourish without extrinsic aid, and possess the power of taking their produce to market, so as to meet competitors on equal terms. The next item in the terms is, the judicious selection of this district fur establishment, for it is but fair to let the Committee understand that there are parts of the province which may be established with advantage to the country at large, without beiug so beneficial either to the settler, or to the person who is to expect repayment of his capital by the exertions of the settler; there are many parts, for example, of the Upper Province, wbere the wet or swampy lands cover a superficies equal to four or five townships together ; now io those situations, although the land will, by the appli. cation of a certain capital and in a certain number of years, become exceedingly firuitful and valuable, yet the certain and absolute relufn will neither be to speedy aor M> great as to justify the advance of capital as a mere pecuniary speculation upMk ita improvement. 93«< You are uaderataori to say, that it is your opinion that 100 acres, in ■■". 55». P 3 wJer If. n. rvftue, « M*. . h, iH7. rl fill M jy. B. FtlloH, Etq. I 6 March, 1817. M f k 113 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE order to be accepted as a sufficient security by an American lending the sum of money required upon it, must possess these two qualifications, it must have a water communication to a marlcet, and it must be situated within a population of a niven density? — Those two qualities will make the estate sufficiently valuable to justify any man's advance of capital upon it ; but us far as an American is concerned, I con- ceive that the spirit of my first answer, properly interpreted, means to say, that you shall also make him secure that this property shall be available at any future time. 933. Then what additional qualification would be required to make this a suf- ficient security for a loan of money by an American or any other foreigner ? — The difficulty with respect to a foreigner is, that you can give him no security that the property shall be available in case of hostilities. 934. Would a citizen of the United States require security as an alien ; that is, would he require security for the repayment, or would he require security that he should be able to put the laws in force for the recovery of his debt ? — He would require both. 935. If an emigrant settler now doing well in Canada, were to be asked his opinion upon the two following points, viz. First, Whether be would recommend an Irish pauper without employ and without hopes of employ, now residing wretchedly in Ireland, with a wife and three clrildren, to come over to Canada and be planted upon one hundred acres, and to make himself liable to the payment of such interest, commencing at the expiration of seven years, such payment to be made in kind, if money be not forthcoming, the emigrant not having the fee-simple of such property until the debt of his emigration was iflischarged ; or, Secondly, Whether he would recommend him on the contrary, in case of free conveyance being afTorded to him, to land without any capital being lent to him, and con- sequently without any pledge of repayment, and to trust for employment to such demand for his labour as might exist at the time of his landing; — in the event of these two questions being put to the prosperous settler now in Canada, clearly com- prehending their import, do you suppose that he would recommend tiie acceptance of such assistance, itivolving such ultimate payment by interest redeemable at will, or the contrary proposition ? — I am quite certain, from my experience and observation, that in all cases the recommendation would be given to prefer the assistance of Government, supposing the party circumstanced precisely as is stated in the question; for if there be a slight variation, it will perhaps occasion a very great diversity of opinion; if, for example, a man at this moment in utter distress in Ireland, is master of a certain art or profession, which is known to yield high wages in Canada, his friends, unacquainted with the circumstances of the country, would prefer recom- mending him to place himself at the spot where his labour could be so beneficially employed, in preference to binding himself to perform any certain duties for the sake of 1 00 acres of land, because there are few artificers in active employment in either of the provinces who do not acquire the means of purchasing land in a situation which is more agreeable to them than that which would probably be aftbrded by Government for locations, by the accumulation of his wages in the course of three or four years. 936. The Committee are then to infer from your answer, that in the case of purely agricultural settlers, not capable of following any pursuit other than agri< culture, that recommendation would be given ; but in the case of a superior class of settlers, who are capable of undertaking other trades or pursuits, it might be doubtful ? — I am of opinion that in the case of agricultural settlers, even aupposine them to be much better circumstanced than the parties described in the question, the recommendation would be to take the Government assistance. At this moment I have remittances from nine families of Irish settlers, to convey to their frienda in Ireland ; but I have a request at the same time from those families, in the event of Government sending out settlers on any terms whatever, to retain the money for the benefit of the remitters, and to use my influence to have those people embarked under the protection of Government. The persons making those remittances are men who commenced, from four to seven years since, with absolutely nothing but Uieir clothing and habits of labour, and who now remit 15/. each for the con-, veyance of relatives in Ireland, none of whom are stated by them to be in distress ; therefore, I consider that a superior class of persons to those described in the question would in all cases be advised to accept' the assistance of Government, afforded them in the manner proposed. 937. The exception, then, tliat you wbh to make, ratlier applies to tlie case of artisans ? ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1847. 119 artisans f— To the case of artisans alone, and those being perfect in their respective trades. 938. Might it not be easily arranged, in a system of emigration, that any artisan so emigrating without anv capital, might repay the expense of his passage by some arranseinent to be made in the way of binding himself apprentice for a certain time ? — I apprehend that will only burthen the agents with unnecessary details in the conduct of the operation ; we find no practical difficulty from want of artisans in the country. 939. Supposing that under the most successful plan you can suggest for emigration, 6,000 families were sent by the Government to a particular district, such as you have described in Canada for location, and located there, at what expense do you calculate that the interest of the money upon the loans proposed to be made to them might be collected ; and in the event of the payment being made in kind, what arrangements could be devised for the collection of such payment? — I am afraid that any opinion I should give the Committee upon that subject, not being grounded on experience, would be little satisfactory ; I do not profess myself competent even to judge of the difficulties that will arise hereafter, but I apprehend that they will not be great ; and judging from the expense attending the collection of the seigneural dues in Lower Canada, I should conceive they would not exceed fifteen per cent upon the gross sum. The Committee must understand that all wages of labour in those provinces are high, and that a merchant even, in acting as a commission merchant, takes in the Canadas five per cent for performing what in other countries is done for two and a half. Therefore, if the collection of a territorial revenue in any country in Europe can be made for seven and 1^ half per cent, it will certainly require twice as much in Canada. P40. In the case that is supposed, namely, that you have a collection to make, from six thousand separate families, of a sum of 1,800/. per annum, at what expense do you consider that that sum might be regularly collected ? — I have no experience to direct me, except that which I derive from the collection of seigneural dues in Lower Canada, and the result of that I have already mentioned ; any other opinion will be perfectly gratuitous, having no certain data to go upon. 941. Are the seigneural dues in Lo>ver Canada collected chiefly in kind?— About two thirds arc collected in kind, the rest in money. 942. Are they collected in kind although stipulated for in money, or are they stipulated for in kind ? — They are stipulated for in kind and in money. 943. Is it common to receive in kind compensation for those which are stipulated for in money? — Never; on the contrary, it is frequently the practice to receive money in lieu of the payment in kind. 944. With a deduction of a per centage? — Without any deduction to the tenant. 945. Are not the great bulk of lands in Lower Canada so held ? — The great bulk of the cultivated land in Lower Canada is held in seigneurie. 946. Are you able to state the proportion of expense which is to be deducted from the amount of those seigneural dues, for the collection of them ? — Not with accuracy ; it varies exceedingly, according to the fertility of the seigneurie in which the collection is made; in a rich seigneurie there is no difficulty in making the collection, in a poor one there is a great deal, and therefore the expense is con- siderably increased. 947. In the case of an emigration upon an extended scale, in which a large district were colonized at once, the communications carried on through that district, and the settlers placed at a reasonable distance from each other, do you not imagine that the expense of such a collection would be much less than it would be with respect to a more desultory and scattered emigration ? — Unquestionably it would. 948. How would you estimate the difficulties of collection in the case just put, aS compared witli the old settled seigneuries in Lower Canada ?— I think the difficulty of collection would be less, and for this reason, that it is proposed that the interest should be made payable in produce, and determinable whenever the individual thinks proper to pay the principal ; now this holds out so flattering a prospect of becoming perfectly an absolute master of his property, that it is a moral stimulus to keep the tenant attentive to his annual payments. 949. Are there at present in Upper Canada any considerable number of settlers holding their lands upon that principle? — I apprehend not; I am not much acquainted with Upper Canada, but I apprehend there are very few lands held od the payment of rent whatever. 550. P 4 950. When ty. B. FiUm, Esq. 6 Mtrch, m i 1 1' 1 1 /i 1' i I i ( W. D, FtUon, Etq. i March, tiay. lao MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 050. When you say there are very few lands held on the payment of rent, do you mean to say that tlu -e are few lands held upon the settler havinji Riven his bond for the payment of the principal?— The majority of the lands that have been purchased or acquired by purchase in Upper Canada are held liable to the payment of the principal and interest, but the bond is not given by the purchaser ; on the contrary, the original proprietor retains the title to the land, giving a bond to the purchaser to furnish him with a deed whenever the purchase-money be totally paid up. 951. That agreement is founded upon the system of the purchaser paying interest until he redeems the principal ; do you know whether that interest is generally regularly paid ? — I have not sufficient personal acquaintance with the Upper Province to answer the question with the precision I ought to do ; but in the Lower Province I can answer for it being so. 9,)3. In answer to a former question, you said that the general opinion in Canada was, that after sixteen months probation, as you termed it, the demand in the United States would carry the settlers there ; what is the nature of the demand you there alluded to? — I state the opinion as existing, I do not pretend to give reasons for it. 953. What is the nature of the demand that you alluded to? — Employment in working the canals and other great public works. 954. Although labourers from England and Ireland may from time to time find advantageous employment immediately upon landing in the Canadas without money or capital, and ultimately become prosperous settlers, must not that employment depend upon the demand existing at the moment for the services of such labourers; and if the supply of labour were too great, would not that employment be out of the question ? — ^There can be no doubt that for two or three years there will be great difficulty in finding employment for a very extensive voluntary emigration ; by ex- tensive voluntary emigration I mean from fifty to sixty thousand souls per annum ; we know that the ordinary emigration, which has usually amounted to ten thousand souls, has found very little ditficulty in placing itself, whether in the Canadas or in. the United States is a matter of indifference, but it has found very little difficulty in placing itself. Latterly, it is true that on their first landing some little inconvenience has been experienced at Quebec, from the sick and destitute who formed a part of the emigration, and inconvenience has also been experienced during the winter season from a large portion of those who have found employment during the summer being thrown out of work ; but as both those evils are necessarily limited, one by tiie demand during summer, which can only employ a certain number of men at Quebec, and consequently can only leave that number of men to be thrown out of employment at the commencement of winter, and the other, although not limited, yet relieved by the arrangements made under public authority for the reception of the sick in the Emigrant Hospital at Quebec, I do not conceive that any, inconvenience will be felt by the continuance of an emigration not exceeding the ordinary average of the last five or six years; but if, as' I before said, it were increased indefinitely without public assistance, then unquestionably there would, for the first three or four years, be great distress ; but I firmly believe that if fifty thousand souls could be continuously introduced annually, in the course of three or four years they would contrive to place themselves either in the provinces or in the adjoining United States, but always with some distress for the first two or three years, and it would be a dangerous experiment to try, without some preparatory measures of relief. 955. Do you think the distress would cease after the first three or four years? — I have no doubt it would, because we found, when 1 0,000 arrived, fur the first two or three years great distress ; but those 1 0,000 have scattered themselves over the province und over the United States, and they furnish places of refuge, if it may be so termed, to the in-coming population ; at the same time I am firmly persuaded that very great distress would be found for the first two or three years, perhaps so much so as hardly to justify the direction of so great an emigrant popula- tion to any given province, without taking some preparatory steps for their reception. 956. Hare not the Government works that are going on in Quebec and other parts of the province of Canada, operated as a great temporary relief to the emigrants, by giving them employment ? — It has unquestionably had that effijct ; but the employment at Quebec being only during the siiminer, has perhaps contributed ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 121 oontributed to increase the number who were left destitute 011 the approach of winter. 957. With how small a sum would an emigrant coming out to Quebec be enabled to settle himself, without being subject to that great distress you have described ? — If I am to take this question in combination with the previous qucs- tjons, and to suppose that the number of settlers that come out is to be unlimited, 1 should say he will require a very large sum to place himself advantageously, certainly 1 5 /. a head for each of his family ; but if the number of settlers is to be limited to the annual average of the last few years, then as his labour will be in demand, he requires a very small advance 10 gam his bread and subsistence ; but to establish himself as a farmer, he requires at least twenty or thirty pounds fur himself and bis family. 958. Does he require as much as twenty or thirty pounds a head ? — Certainly not ; the terms of tlie proposition assume that he gains full employment as a labouring man during the progress of his establishment. 959. The question contemplates a man arriving at Quebec and not looking to dbtaining employment; what is the smallest sum with which he could establish himself advantageously ? — To state the precise sum which would enable a settler to establish himself according to the question proposed, would deceive the Com- mittee, because the facility of establishing himself in this manner will necessarily be governed by the number of settlers arriving at the same time ; and therefore the question applied to a single settler, supposing only one settler arrives in a year, would be answered in a very different way to wtiat it would be if 6o,oou settlers arrived in a year. 960. Supposing that reasonable number to arrive which you think could be so settled without material inconvenience?— I have already stated, that supposing the ordinary annual average to arrive, that is about iu,oott souls, no money is required for a man who can get into employment during the summer. 961. The question is with respect to a man not looking to get employment there, but supposing him to be landed at Quebec, what would be the expense at which that man could locate himself upon his land and put himself into an advantageous sitifation r — Making allowance for the varying circumstances to which settlers are exposed, I conceive that a man, with a family consisting of a wife and two children, can place himself very advantageously in any part of the provinces for .50/. ; if be does it for less, I mean if he does it with the possession of less money, he will still have to borrow or to get an advance in some shape to make up tliat amount ; or if he does not get that advance, he will still have to devote a certain number of days labour in each week for the acquisition of provisions and tools, that cost him a hundred per cent more, gained in that way, than they would other-^ wise cost. 962. Do you mean when he is upon the sjwt ? — When he is upon the spot, and in a partially settled country ; this I conceive to be the average expense under the average of circumstances. 963. You state that a person arriving there without any money at all, by getting work on the canals that were going on in the United States, afterwards found the means: of settling himself? — That is very frequently the case. 964. You are understood to state that emigrants have arrived there in con- siderable numbers, and in consequence of a canal that was cutting ..in the United States, a number of those persons worked upon that canal till they got a sufficient sum of money to settle themselves either in the United States or in the Canadas ?— It has very frequently occurred that settlers have collected sufficient capital to commence their operations, by the wages gained during one summer's good work on those canals ; but it does not follow that their establishment was perfect, they were obliged to work out the next summer, and the next summer after that, to place their families in as independent a situation as they would be in if they had been furnished with twelve months provision in the outset. 965. . If the English Government should carry on any similar work in the Canadas,. of course a considerable number of emigrants may also dispose of themselves by the wages of labour which they may obtain on such wurks? — Unquestionably they might, and to much greater ndvuntage than by gaining an equal sum of money in the United States, for this simple reason, that the habits of life acquired in the United States are not favourable to accumulation of money : a man who passes the whole summer at work upon the canals in the United States learns to live as an American, and he expends as much . subsistence : in the course of a week, in the . ; .550. ^ Q support IV. B. FiUoti, Esq. 6 Marrb, 1897. (11 III ''y^ 139 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOllE SELECT COMMITTEE W. B. Ftlitn. Eiq. 6 March, 1897. \1 N.'-day, accompanied with tea and cream, and so on, he will be satisfied with • small quantity of meat and other inferior food sufficiently nourishing and wholesoow for his purpose, but unaccompanied witli the expensive comforts of an American meal ; he will therefore be richer by thirty or forty per cent at the end of the yew, than he would be if he had gone to the United States. q66. Are you aware that a considerable work is going on between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario, in the Canadas?— I understand the Welland Caoal is going on there ■ I am not personally acquainted with that part of the country. 967. If the Welland Canal is carried on, will not there be a considerable quan- tity of work for emigrants to avail themselves of for the purpose of working on it during the summer, and to enable them to locate themselves in the winter, either immediately in the neighbourhood or further in the interior ? — There can be no doubt about it. q68. Can you state from your own knowledge the amount of tlie sums which have been extracted in the form of charity from the resident inhabitants of Upper and Lower Canada, and have been applied to the relief of those unfortunate persons who, having left Great Britain or Ireland without capital or means of supporting or assisting themselves, have landed in the Canadas, in the expectation of finding employment there, and who finding no demand for their labour have consequently, in the first instance at least, been exposed to a severe degree of misery and destitu- tion? — My answer will not apply to Upper Canada, I have no knowledge of it there ; as to Lower Canada, I have reason to believe that the inhabitants of Quebec and Montreal have been called upon, for every year since 1832, and have made large contributions for the relief of the emigrant population ; those contributions, I believe, exceeded 800/. a year for each city; but, in addition to them, the Assembly of the province have annually granted a sum of money, for they have always been alive to the call of humanity, for the support of an Emigrant Hospital at Quebec. In the year 1823, they granted 750/., in 1824, 600/., in 1835, 700/., in 1836, 950/.; and I believe that those sums have been found adequate to the support of the sick and infirm landing at Quebec, because I observe by the retunis of the magistrates superintendinig that Emigrant Hospital, that only 330 persons were admitted in the course of one year, and I conceive (he average of the whole four years not to have exceeded 250 persons admitted annually. His Majesty's Government at home, on the first appearance of this great migration, at the suggestion I believe of Lord Dalhouaie, gave 1,000/. for the relief of those emigrants. Now, the distress which has been experienced in those towns has resulted from the intro- duction of about 10,000 souls annually, and the relief required would not have amounted to more than 3000/. annually, in the Lower Province ; but if the emigra- tion were increased, the distress for some years would certainly bear a much greater proportion to the absolute number introduced than it has done hitherto, when the number has been limited to 10,000; for example, if 15,000 poor emigrants were thrown upon the Lower Canadas, of a description perfectly similar to those who have been hitherto introduced, I conceive that, instead of 3,000/. sufficing to relieve their wants and distresses, it would require 6 or 7,000/. and perhaps m a greater proportion, as it increased, for some years. 9G9. Do you not imagine, if an extensive emigration were to be carried on upon the principle of planting, that in a very few years an almost indefinite supply of that class of emigrants might bs received and absorbed ? — I have no doubt whatever that the means of providing for the casual emigration hereafter, in con- sequence of the establishment of their friends by the aid of Government, would be infinitely increased. If any distress were to be felt by the introduction of a larger population not under the protection of Government, who I take for granted will go out in the same seasons when the emigration supported by Government takes place, provided vessels can be found to convey them, I have no doubt that that distress would be met by the legislature of the province with perfect readiness, and that it might be compensated to them by the admission of a certain quantity or the whole of the surplus grain of the Lower Province into Great Britain free of duties* To explain myself, 1 mean to say that I have no doubt that the legislature of Lower Canada would take upon themselves to relieve all the distressed objects that may arrive in the province, in consideration of this boon being afforded to them ; and that this boon need not be of great magnitude, it would be very easy » to m transl depel frienl Ii I ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 1J3 to show. I have no doubt that the five admiisioD of 100,000 quarters a year, for tea years, would induce that legislature, ir it were made conditional, to undertake to nlieva the individual public and His Majesty's Government from all expense which may arise from sickness or distress attending the introduction of any number of emigrants in the province ; I mean in addition to those that are to be carried out at the public expense, because I assume always, tliat, send out whatever number you nay at the public expense, there still will be a certain voluntary emigration, in addition to them, provided the means of transport exist 970. Do you mean, that if the Government proceed upon a regulated system of pauper emigration to which they lend aid, that that would be likely to be accom- panied by another emigration going out by its own means ? — I mean to say that it would be accompanied with an increased emigration. I take fur granted, that the Government cannot remove all those that are desirous of emigrating ; I take for granted, that their means are not adequate to it at present ; and 1 take for granted, that the tonnage of the country going out to Canada in ballast, that with regard to economy ought to be employed in that specific occupation, is only at this moment, I conceive, sufficient for the transport of 60 or 70,000 souls ; but if the number were to be increased greatly beyond tliat amount, it would be quite insufficient. 971. Will not that difficulty impede the voluntary emigrntion ? — It will operate to the extent of an increase of expense ; but still there will be a great number go out. 972. Not paupers i — Not paupers, and not capitalists. The distress whicli has been felt at Quebec has been partly occasioned by the accidents to which all exten> sive emigration must be subject ; when I say that only 250 have been received into the hospital, I should mention that in many cases families are left destitute ; the emigrants who go, generally take with them 3, 4, 5, 6, or 8 or 10 children, and if the father of the family dies in the passage, bis wife and his children are left destitute, and it frequently happens that, in addition to their destitution, they are troubled with sickness. 973. You have stated the number of persons that have been received into the hospital at Quebec, and the amount which it has cost to provide for them during late years ; has not that been upon what you consider to be the worst possible system of emigration, namely, that of persons going out without any previous provision or arrangement, to provide for themselves as they can ? — It has. 974. And the result of that has been, that out of an average annual emigration of 10,000, only 250 have found their way into the hospital ? — That is the result ; but more have required relief during the winter, able-bodied men, and it is for the relief of those persons that the towns have been burthened, men who have been improvident, have not laid by any money for their sustenance during the winter, although they were in the receipt of very large wages during the summer. 975. Of those 10,000 persons that have gone out, all the destitute and impro- vident among them have been relieved for the annual sum of 3,000/.? — I conceive that 3,000/. has been about the average sum collected. 976. You were understood to say, that you thought the best possible mode of location was to take 300 families, and to give tliem a piece where they might have communication by water, with a market lor their produce; and also to give them good land, in contradistinction to other land ? — I stated, that to give the capitalist any confidence in the repayment of the money that he might advaijfce for the esta- blishment of settlers, it was necessary to guarantee to him that those circumstances should be ensured in carrying the settlement into effect 977. That there should be an union to the extent of three hundred families ? — To make it sure to the capitalist that their land would be sufficiently valuable to cover the amount of his advance ; and as a corollary, I should say that that is the best mode of settlement. 978. What do you suppose would be the sum necessary to enable a person to take out three hundred families, and locate them in the country ? — That will depend upon so great a variety of contingencies, that I should very much deceive the Com- mittee if I were to give an off-hand opinion upon the subject, it would require so many details, which are necessary elements in the calculation; I should require to take a long time to make the thing intelligible. 979. What would it cost a person, having a relation settled in the country,. to transport himself, and to bring himself into contact wiih that relation? — That depends upon his dbtance from the seaport ; the facilities afforded by meeting a friend established io the country arc so great, that I should say, if a man is once 550. Q a put ly, B. fcftoa, Eiq. 6 Miirch, i8a7. m t '1 ! I: '1 ly. H. Ftlton, Liq. '■ ' ^ ^ " Miiiih, I8u7. ',1 124 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ^ put down ill Ills friend's family, or next door to that friend, supposing; that friend to be established in the country, and to be .able to raise food enough to assist tlie new coiner, the expense will be governed by the price of the food that be can lend him, and that again will be governed by the situation. i)8o. If you were consulted by a person under those circumstances, what would^ you tell him he might go out for? — I should have to ascertain the expense of the freight in the first place ; supposing him to be put down in Queliec, which we are told can be done for thirty shillings, but which I believe requires three pounds, he will then have to furnish himself with food for as many days as it will require to reach the place of his destination ; and then if he adds to that upon the average about two-pence halfpenny a mile for travelling expenses, that will cover the journey ; and therefore if a man were to come to me, and say, I have a friend in such a township, in such a province, I could tell him within fifteen-pence what would be the expense of going to him : but if the man were to say, I have a friend a mile from Quebec, I should tell him the expense is only the freight to that port. 981. Could any inconvenience, in your opinion, arise, or would any uncertainty of success be involved, in the case of any number of emigrants planted and located according to the system adopted in the emigration of 1S23 and 1825; would the extent of the number affect their success, provided that, in point of fact, means did exist for planting and locating them upon the principle of advanced capital, accord- ing to the precedents of 1 823 and of 1825 ? — None whatever ; I conceive that the facilities of planting emigrants will increase witb their numbers, and that in carryiiig on the operation in future the expenses will be very much diminished. As to the extent of the success, I believe that the more numerous the establishment, the greater chance there is of ultimate success, because they form a dense population, capable of a^Tiisting each other in all public works and works of magnitude that may be useful for the general interest; and as to their markets, a large number of emi- grants established together will inevitably be accompanied with a subdivision of labour, useful toevery individual interested in the settlement. 7 ;. v . ■'■;■ .-nh Jovis, 8* die Martii, 1827. f J.D, C«pt. fVeatherlij/. 8 March, 1847. Captain James Dent JVeatherley, called in ; and Examined. 982. HOW long is it since you left Canada ?— In the middle of January I left' home, in the township of March, on Ottawa River, in Upper Canada. 983. You were residing near what is generally known by the name of Mr. Robin- son's settlement in 1823? — Yes, I reside near that settlement; and frequently passed through it, in going to the sessions at the district town of Perth. 984. What impression has been created in your mind, as to the success of that settlement ?— The settlers seem to be getting on extremely well with their improve- ments ; I think I could venture to say, without any exception ; I know of no exception. 985. How long have you resided in Canada ? — Nearly eight years. 986. Has your attention been called to a point which has furnished a good deal of discussion and consideration, that is, the capacity of the settler to repay the capital' advanced for his location, upon the principle of paying interest upon that money so advanced, redeemable at will, and commencing at the period of seven years after his first location; for example, supposing that 100/. were necessary to locate a man and woman and three children, upon a location of an hundred acres, and to give him all that assistance which is necessary to put him in a condition to go on by himself; would a settler so located, in your opinion, be enabled, without difficulty, to commence the payment of interest at five per cent upon tliat 1 00 /. so advanced for his location, at the termination of seven years r — I have not the least doubt of it. 987. Do you think he would be able to do it in money or in kind ? — At a much earlier period he would be able to do it in kind ; but I think he would then, that is to say in seven years, be able to do it in money. 988. In giving that answer, you have reference to your own personal observa- tion of the condition and circumstances of that class of persons ?— From litring very near them ; frequently passing through that part of the country, seeing them and other settlers when they first go upon their lands, and seeing them at the expi- ration of five or six years ; and, judging from the improvements they make in the extent much ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 18^7. 115 extent of clearing their ground and their buildiuM, I have not th«! Ica«t on this subject) — I have not the least doubt «.«' it. 090. Are you of opinion, that if it were properly explained to the settler, previously to bis leaving this country, that he would be called u|K>n to repay the money so advanced to him, there would be any objection on his part so to repay it, or any practical difficulty in levying it ? — I think not. 991. If one of Mr. Robinson's settlers were to be asked by a friend of iiis in Ireland, whether he would advise him to accept Government assistance, subject to this principle of repayment, or to take his chance in that country without such as- sistance, are you of opinion that the settler would advise him to accept the nssiMtance and repay it, or the contrary ? — I have no doubt that the settler would advise his friend to accept that assistance, rather than to trust to his own resources, 993. Are there very large tracts of land of first-rate (|uiility which would yield as good a return as that occupied by Mr. Robinson's settlers, that would enable any new settler to repay the interest at the end of seven years, if a large number were sent out ? — I am sure there are. 993. Are there large tracts of land as good as that now occupied by Mr. Ro- binson's settlers ? — No doubt, and a great deal that would be better. 994. Is there much demand for labour in that part of the United States adjoining on Upper Canada? — At present there is, on account of the canals there cutting. 995. Is the canal between lake Erie and Ohio finished ? — ^Not yet. 996. Is there a considerable demand for labour? — So much so, that 1 have occasionally met with the emigrants going to the States to work for a few winter months. 997. Have any of Mr. Robinson's settlers gone over to the United States, tempted by that demand ? — In December last I passed through that country in going to the sessions, and I had occasion to stop at one of their cottages ; one of the settlers was preparing to go to work at the canal for the winter, with the intention of coming back as soon as he could get to work upon his own land again. 998. Do you know any thing of the number of voluntary emigrants that go to Quebec annually ? — Only from newspaper accounts ; I have occasionally been at Quebec end seen ship-loads arrive. 999. Do you know whether the number of emigrants has much diminished since the passing of an Act in 1 824, called the Passengers Act ? — I judge merely from the newspaper account ; I should say not. 1000. Yuu have stated, that you have no doubt that a settler would be able to pay five per cent upon the sum expended in locating him, in five years after his arrival ?— If it was taken in produce. 1001. At what time do you conceive it would be in his power to pay the principal, with a view of getting the fee-simple of the estate?— A great deal would depend upon the strength of the family of the emigrant ; if he was left alone to cultivate the land, 1 should suppose it would take a greater length of time ; if he had two or three grown-up sons to assist him, he would very speedily doit. 1002. Supposing that in five years he should be able to pa^ five per cent upon the money lent him, how many years would elapse after that tmie l)eforc he would be able, according to your judgment, to pay the principle ?— I should say within ten years. 1003. Jhat would double the period ?— Yes. i 1004. uo you consider that in the case of an emigrant located upon the principle of Mr. Robinson's Emigrants, he would have a temptation after his year was out, during which he was rationed by the Government, to leave his scttlcnieiit for the purpose of going over and trying his fortune in the United States ? — Not if he com- menced immediately on his location to build and improve his land ; tliere might be some idle character, that would make a bad use of the indulgence, and not clear his land, but I do not know of any instance of it. 1005. Are you of opinion that at the end of the seven years, supposing a man to have improved his land a.vcragely and then to quit his location at the time when Sbo. Q3 Ihe Capl. D. IVtulhirltf. I Msrcb, 1817. if li it Ctpl. J, D. Wtathtrhy. 8 March, 1897. (' !•*' Jokn (yDriitol, Eiq. 8 March, 1847. h\A T36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEr the rent became due, that the improved condition of that land, taking into consi- deration all the circumstances of its intrinsic improvement and of itH being surrounded by improved land belonging to other settlers, would be a fair security for the cu|>ital advanced ? — I have no doubt of it. 1006. If a man had been industrious for seven years, notwithstanding ho were burthened with his debt of £. 100, would it »« his interest, having cleared his land, to remain on that land, subject to that debt, or to go over to the United States if he could?— It would be hb interest to remain on hisland, beyond a doubt. 1007. Although it was subject to the debt ?— Certainly. iou8. Must not the success of those settlers depend upon their having a good market for the increased produce they may raise? — Undoubtedly ; they easily obtain a sufficiency to support themselves and their families, but till a market is found for the surplus produce, tliey are not induced to extend their improvements. loog. Is there a market at present ?— I think I may say there is at present, for those living near the rivers, a good market ; the surplus grain being taken by the lumberers, as they are termed, the people who cut timber for the English and West India market. 1010. Since the Canadian corn was admitted into this country, has there been a good market open to them ? — No doubt. 101 1. Has the alteration in the law, with regard to the admission of Canadian corn into this country, been seriously felt in Canada ? — Very much so ; and we look forward also to the opening of the West India Islands to our produce, which would much stimulate the Emigrant settler to exertion. 1012. Is that intercourse now interdicted ? — We have never enjoyed it; it has been in the hands of the Americans. It will be an excellent market for staves, and horses and mules, and flour and pork. In fact it would induce the settlers to become very industrious. 1013. Do you conceive that a good market for the surplus produce of the Canadas, whether of lumber or provisions, would be the most likely mode of extending the successful industry of that country ? — Undoubtedly. John O'Driscol, Esq. called in; and Examined. ' ' 1014. YOU are a resident in the south of Ireland?— I am. 1015. Have you had an opportunity of readingthe Report and Evidence of the Emigration Committee of last year? — I read the Report. \oib. Have you directed your attention to the .subject? — Very much. 1017. Are you of opinion that in the case of a population redundant in the sense in which that term has been employed by the Committee, the expense of sustaining that population can be placed at less than 4/. per head ? — Not less, I am sure ; I should place it at a little more than 4/. per head. 1018. In the case of a county in Ireland, in which it is admitted that there are 1,000 persons, in the proportion of 200 men, 300 women, and 600 children, for whose labour there is no real demand, and from whose absence, if they were taken out of the country to-morrow, no sort of inconvenience would be felt with reference to any work executed by them, or any production, the result of such work, do you consider that the county in which such a population resides can be charged with less than 4,000/. a year, in some shape or other, for the maintenance of that popu- lation ? — There is no doubt that the county pays that in some way or other ; it is paid by the land. 1019. Are you of opinion, therefore, that in such a supposed case, to relieve that county of that surplus population, charging the county with a county rate for sixty years, or with some assessment equivalent to a county rate to the amount of 300/. per annum, would be a most beneficial measure for the interest r'f the pro- prietors in that county ?— I would consider it so, certainly. 1 020. Have you had any opportunity of forming a judgment as to the disposition which exists among the gentlemen in the south of Ireland to meet a proposition for Emigration with any contributions in any shape, for the purpose of carrying the measure into effect ? — I have conversed with a number of gentlemen, particu- larly that class in the county of Cork that are generally upon the grand juries, and they generally appear to me very anxious that some measure of this kind should take place, and they are very willing to contribute towards it, without having any specific plan upon the subject. * 1021. Have you ever been able to ascertain to what extent any person or persons would ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 137 would be ready to gc upon auch ■ pIm ; for example, iiuw much per head they would pay upon the population ?— •The way in which I have generally put it, was by proposing • small tax to the amount of about a shilling in the pound upon the county rate; such a tax would much more than cover the proposed 300 /T a year for 1,000 persons. My own plan was, to propose that that tax of one shilling in the pound upon the county rate should be divided between the tenant and tlie land- lord ; that the tenant should be at liberty to deduct half, if not the whole, from the rent of bis landlord ; as both parties would be benefited, both parties would have a right to contribute. loaa. Are you of opinion that the grand juries in the counties of Iv H would be the proper source from whence any arrangement of this sort should ^ ,eed ? — I think the consent of the grand juries would be very material, and I have no doubt of the consent of the grand juries, if the measure were explained to them ; I think it would be well however to have the authority of Parliament, enabling the grand juries to act, in case they should consent to such a measure. 1033. When does the grand jury of Cork assemble? — About the 30th of March. 1034. What contiguous counties would you select in the south of Ireland, in which this question of emigration would be entertained with the deepest interest?— — I would select the county of Cork, which is the county I am best acquainted with ; I think that Cork, and Limerick and Kerry, would all concur in the measure, and, I have no doubt, all the counties of the south of Ireland. 1025. Do you conceive that it would be likely that from the interest of landlords, the Committee might calculate upon getting individual conditions of provision for the remuneration to be paid by charging their properties i — I am sure some indivi- duals would contribute, but tnere would be a difficulty as to the mode of raising that voluntary contribution ; I think a general measure would be more satisfactory, provided it were such a light measure as would not be felt. 1 036. Has there not ^n a tendency exhibited in Cork, towards the establish- ment of something in the nature of a poor-rate ?— There was a strong disposition manifested upon the subject, which grew out of the very severe distress in Cork, which distress is considerably aggravated since that period. 1027. Was not that distress occasioned by a great excess of population unem- ployed ? — Yes. 1038. Was not that disposition to create a poor-rate met by a very general expression of opinion, that a poor-rate, intended to keep these people at home, would be utterly ruinous to the country ? — That was the general impression ; public opinion was very much divided ; on the one hand they were pressed by the excessive poverty and misery of the people, on the other hand there was a great reluctance to incur a permanent tax of that description. 1 029. Was not there a general meeting held at Cork, under the pressure of extreme distress, which led to a sort of admission that a poor-rate was necessary, or was advisable, in order to support that population ? — There was. 1030. Was not that immediately followed up by parochial meeting in Cork, in which a general opinion was expressed that the property of the parishes would be utterly unequal to such support? — That was the fact; the general meeting was a meeting to which all persons were admitted, and they carried the question of the poor-rate by a very large majority ; afterwards, when the householders ' met in the parishes they were very generally against it. 1031. Do you conceive that, as an alternative to that evil, owners of property in the county would, either by general taxation or by some arranged mode of contribution, be ready to meet the expenses of a measure of emigration ? — I am sure many would be very willing. 103a. Are you acquainted with the county of Limerick? — I know many of the gentleman of the county of Limerick, but I have not much acquaintance with tiiat county. 1033. Are you acquainted with the tenants of the county to any extent? — Not a great deal. 1034. Are you not aware, from your general knowledge, that most of the disturbance that has prevailed in that county, and which more or less breaks out every now and then, has arisen from under-tenants dispossessed, whose resi- dence upon the ground is mischievous, not only to the principal landlord but to the middle farmer of the c6untry ? — I am sure it is the principal source of disturbance. , ,. . 550. Q4 1035. Do John (TDriinl, Etq. .^ lib Miircli, 18Q7. 1'^ H n8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE JotknODfUtol, K».,. ». ■ ^ — ' iith MiirrI), 1 1147. 103.1 W! I)(. you not conceive that a benefit, territorially, would be derived to th« proprietors, if they were to substitute 9 inotlcratc tax upon their land for the de- duction from their profits which arises from a paujwr population existinR who pay no rent?— Undoubtedly, I think it would; and I think they are now beginning to understand that point pretty well. .,,... io3«'). Arc you of opinion that among the numerous class of petiUoning emi- grant« in the louth of Ireland, tliere would be any real objection on their part to bind themselves, and to consent voluntarily to the principle of repayment of the money advanced in their location, provided it were simply and clearly made out to them, that it was only by such repayment that they could obtain that assistance ? — I am' sure there would be no objection in the worid ; the people are extremely anxious to get away. If they had any prospect of repaying the money, they would have no difficulty in making themselves liable for it. 1037. Are you decidedly of opinion that if that were duly explained to thenri it would not present a serious objection to the realization of a plan of Emigration ? I do not think it would present any objection. 1038. Has the subject of Emigration occupied very general attention in Ireland, as a means of relieving the distress and the inconveniences that occur in that country from over population ?— It does at present occupy a cunsiderable degree of attention amongst the gentry. 1 039. As the attention of the gentry has been occupied in that way, do you conceive that any general questions emanating from this Conmiittee to the Grand Juries in Ireland, would be likely to bring full explanations and replies upon that subject ? — I think it would be useful to have such general questions proposed ; but I think it would be better if some person were to take those questions to them, and nere ready to answer such inquiries as the Grand .Juries might make ujjon tho subject. 1040. Do you conceive that any person being sent to Ir'^lun'l without such questions, would be enabled to make his explanations in such 1.1 nncr as would bring the views of the Grand Juries in Ireland satisfactorily undyv the view of this Committee? — That would depend upon tiic person wiio was S'.ot; I should think, if a proper person were sent, there would be no doubt of it at all. 1041. How do you conceive that any proper person who was aent without defined instructions, could communicate the views of this Committee ? -I think his instructions ought to be defined. 1042. In every county in Ireland it is supposed that there may be many proper- ties which have too great a number of people upon tiiem, and others which have not too many ; in that case are you of opinion thpt the gentismen in those relative situations would be equally willing to impose 1 permanent burthen upon their property, for getting rid of a general excess of P'.jple in the county ? — I Rin in- clined to think that all the parties would contribute ; for this reason, that the pro- perty which has only a sufficient number of population, is very much injured by a contiguous property which has too much. The pauper population of an over- peopled estate prey upon the population of the neighbouring estate, which has not more than its due proportion of people ; they live upon their charity, and often steal from them ; they are a great nuisance to the neighbourhood ; and it would be nearly as great a relief to the estate that has not more than its proper population, to get rid of the superabundant population upon the neighbouring estate, as it would to that estate itself. I have found it to be the case in the country, that a neighbouring property over-peopled, was a great nuisance. 1 U43. Are you of opinion that the gentlemen in the different counties of Ireland, who might assess their property for the purpose of removing the over-abundant population, would take means, by their after mode of letting their lands, to prevent a recurrence of over numbers ? — I can only speak from what appears to be the very general feeling upon the subject ; all the gentlemen I have conversed with, in the south of Ireland, are quite aware of the necessity of taking such measures, and. most of them arc taking them progressively, as it comes within their power to do so. 1044. Are you of opinion that if in the first instance a general charge was n upon the county rates, for example, upon which the sum necessary for the contri- bution of that particular county was to be raised, it would diminish any objection that might arise upon the part of persons wiio do not consider themselves indip vidually so much benefited as others from the result of the emigration, if it we re to be part of the arrangement, that persons specially benefited by having their pruper^ici fV ' ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED K'NC, ' )M l^J7 ij.j «rtei(i luiii r>M! < 'tinty ttik> amy properties cleared of tlieir lurrcptitioui lentnlry, were Iti iif»>0ii per head, a/, for example, which a/, should Iw applied in p'lndw^ rate, so as to diminish it as a general tui upon that coum - I m, ■n arran){ement us thai would be contidered a very fair uimi, unO •»' •ny objeciion that might arise from the lax being too general. 1045. Where docs that circuit commence, which terminates a r ( mencec in Clare, and goes to Limerick, from Limerick to Kerry, uix Cork. 10416. Do you know on what day it commence! at Clare?— About the tenth or twelfth of March. ' —It CI>IM. Kiiiiates ill Juif OTDrntuI, t Mtrrli, ll«7 Sabhati, 10' die Marlii, 1827- I John Smith, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 1047. — YOU are a banker, residing at Oundlein the county of Northampton? — 1 am. 1048. What is the population of the parish of Oundle?— About 3,500. 1049. What is the principal trade or occupation of the parishbners ?— They follow general trades ; there is no manufacture of any description. 1050. What is the amount of the poor-rates in that parish?' — From three to lour thousand a year. 1 051 . Are there any persons in that parish, for whose labour there is no demand ? — A vast many ; when 1 say a vast many, tlicro are generally from forty to sixty employed upon the roads, doin^ little or nothing. 1053. What is thr> manner in which the parish proceed with respect to those persons for whose labour there is no demand ? — They arc paid from the poor-rates ; they are sent to the ove:s home almost when tttey please, and they are paid according to their familir* ; they are piiid a> much as a mm can earn when he goca to hiird lahoiir i thorefore a man that han been in tlie habit of going to hard labour, layi, I will not go to work any longer, I will go upon the parish. 1038. Do you think there would Im< any indisposition upon the part of those paupers, when tlic subject was fully explained to ihem, to avail tlicinselvet of tniigration? — I titould think there would not} I have no doubt several of them wouUl be very glad of the opportunity of going. I have here a letter from a man that was transported from Oundle, re(|ue»ting his family to be sent to hiui, atattug the great comforts he is now enjoying. [The IVitneta delivertd in the same, which wot read, 1088. And tools? — Yes, tools for husbandry. 1089. From whom does the merchant who follows the settlers, draw the supply ?— The majority of merchants get it from Montreal ; some of them have money, and go down and purchase cheaper, but the greater number get their goods on credit, and make returns in produce as they receive it from the settlers. 1090. What return do they make; can you state the produce? — ^The produce which merchants return is flour, pot-ash, pearl-ash, and salt pork ; they seldom send wheat. logi. In the evidence of Mr. Felton, he says he sold a great deal of land in the province of Canada to Irish and English settlers, at t' i rate of from three quarters of a dollar up to two dollars per acre ; that the land which he sold was wholly uncleared, that it was perfectly in a state of wilderness, and in a majority of cases not even on a road ; that in niany cases the settlers were burthened with a debt when they commenced their operations, amounting to 90 /. a family; and that he never has experienced any difliculty in collecting interest on the capital ' fi-om them at the expiration of the second, third and fourth year, and in a majority of cases, before the expiration of the third year, he has received part of the principal in payment ; he adds, that in a majority of cases they borrowed pro* ' visions and implements from the neighbouring storekeeper, to enable them to > commence operations, expecting to pay those advances from the produce of their industry, in the shape of ashes or provision, in the course of the next year ; now if the settler settling in lands so circumstanced, namely, almost in a state of wilder- ness, without money, have had no difficulty in borrowing from a neighbour- ing storekeeper such a sum us enabled them to commence their operations, why do ON EMIG RATION FHOM THE UNITED KlNGDONf. 1827. 133 do you think there would be uny difficulty with settlers who commence their operations with much greater advantages (namely, in having their land surveyed, and probably on a road,) in borrowing money upon the mortgage of lands so circum- stanced ? — There is no money capital in the country. If tiiey went to a storekeeper, they might at once get any article he had in the way of sale ; the word " borrow," should have been " purchased on credit those articles, which they repaid." The trader has a profit both on the articles he sells and the produce he receives, tliat is, he docs not give the settlers so much for their produce as they would have got if they had not been in his debt before. 1093. Would an honest man, having a free grant of land, be enabled to get from a storekeeper, upon credit, such implements and provisions ns would enable liiin to start in the cultivation of his farm? — There would he some difficulty in regard to some of the emigrants ; unless the storekeeper considered Ihem industrious and active men, he would not trust them ; but persons who have been a year in the country, and know how to work and labour, would find no difficulty whatever in obtaining necessary supplies from the storekeeper. 109 J. Do you not think that if there was a sufficient security for the money advanced (whether or no the sum advanced was in the shape of implements to the amount of -20 1. or actually 20/. if there was such a security as Mr. Felton feels was sufficient) in the course of three or four years the amount would be repaid with interest ; and is there not capital enough in the colony to enable persons to make advances requisite for the purpose ? — Not in money. 1094. But in implements? — The merchants keep Kidse implements which settlers require. 1095. What is the distinction between the advance of such implements as are necessary for the cultivation of the farm and the provisions necessary for the sub- sistence of a family, and the advance of a sum requisite to produce them ? — I am not sure that I understand that question. 1096. You say that there would be little difficulty in procuring an advance of implements and provisions, but great difficulty in procuring advances of money; now is tliere any practical distinction l)etween those advances? — There is a very great local distinction ; the majority of the peo|)le there are farmers, nine-tenths of them; a small proportion are dealers, they would not be called merchants here; they are dealers in such articles as are saleable in the country ; it is these dealers who make the advances ; most of the farmers confine themselves entirely to their farms, and they have no money to advance ; if they have any money, they generally pur- chase land for their children, and expend it in that way. 1097. There is a difficulty in advancing money?— Yes. 1098. Is theie any practical difficulty in procuring upon credit, with a stipulation for repayment, such a quantity of provisions as would enable an honest settler to support his family at first, and such implements as would enable him to practise his occupations? — Certainly not. 1099. Are the Committee to understand you to say, that if a thousand families were to land in Quebec in 1828, there would be no difficulty in the individuals, whether dealers or merchants, immediately lending these persons such implements and advancing to them such food as might be necessary to sustain them until they were in a condition to support themselves upon credit? — I made a distinction with regard to that: I conceive that with emigrants coming out immediately without any capital, the merchants not knowing them, and not being convinced in their minds that they would turn out industrious, there would be difficulty; but there would be no difficulty in regard to a person who had remained long enough to show that he would be a good settler. The merchants or traders must have a moral con- fidence in their own minds that they would be repaid ; the difficulty arises from the settlers not being known, and coming to a country exposed to labour to which they had not been accustomed. These two points require to be morally ascertained, before merchants will give them credit. 1100. If the only objection is that they are not individually acquainted with the character of the settler, and huve no guarantee that he is industrious and likely to produce a useful settler, and that if they did know it, there would be no objection to their advancing this food and these implements, do you not consider it a proof that if money were advanced from this country, little or no risk would be run in receiving repayment upon the same principle as the local agent receives it lloiii the individual settler with whom he is acquainted? — There is not any dilitreiice ; what I mean to say is, it would be a matter of prudence with the merchant ; he 550. R 3 must Dr. Juhii Strachun. Hi 13 March, 1897. .( t il Dr. Jokn Strackan. k • H ll 13 Murch, 18*7. I! .1 > i1 134 MINUTES OF EVIDKNCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE must see the probability of being repaid, and that prudence dictates he should know the person with whoip lie deals, and to whom he gives credit; but if the advance is made to those persons who go upon' their lands as to the two last emigrations, there is not any body but what would credit them at once. 1 io». Supposing a party of emigrants landed in Canada, and that they had such a character for honesty and for ability in this country as that the Government would be induced to make a free grant of land to them, do you not think it would be taken by the parties in the colony, that they must be men who would maintain a good character in the country ? — The merchant would judge individually of each person for himself; it is impossible to give a general guarantee. 1 1 02. Do you think it possible that any legal association might be formed ? — It would assist ; but if the merchant were a prudent person he would look at each individual himself. 1 103. Do you think it possible that any Company could be formed in Canada, to supply these persons wUh implements and provisions upon a larger scale than could be done by individuals taking the land only as a security for repayment ? — I doubt that, from want of capital ; I do not think a Company could carry on the business so profitably as private individuals. 1104. Supposing an advance were made of provision and implements, for which a small amount of capital would be necessary, would not the dealer have this inducement first, a sale for his commodities by finding a purchaser of them, and next the land which would be a sufficient security for the repayment? — The land would be a sufficient security, but I am not prepared to say that a Company could easily be created in the Canadas ; it would be difficult to show the necessity of forming a Company to do what can be better done by individuals, and there would be still greater difficulty in showing that there would be any particular profit from it. 1105. Do you not think a person lending money in Canada on the spot, ad* vancing £, 20. in money, implements and provisions, would have a better chance of procuring repayment for bis advance, than a person lending money in this country? — From his local knowledge he would have a better chance. 1106. Are you not of opinion that money is worth more than 6/. per cent in Canada ?— In truth it is, but we cannot get more, legally. 1 107. Do you not think that if the laws respecting usury were altogether repealed, money would be anxiously taken at a much higher interest than 6 /. per cent ? — In many instances it would ; the way in which merchants deal gives them much more profit than the per-centage ; they would not lend money ; they get a profit upon tlie articles they sell to settlers, they get his produce at such a rate as enables them to get a profit from Montreal, when they send it to their own merchant; therefore money is seldom lent in that country. lto8. Are you nut therefore of opinion that if there were no laws at all upon the subject of usury, that money would in fact be worth more, and that more than 6/. per cent would generally be given for it ?— More would be frequently given. 1109. You have stated, that to a person of good credit and respectabilityi a merchant would have no objection to advance food and implements to the amount of 20/.?— Yes. 1110. fiut from want of capital in Canada, is it probable that if :. great influx 6f emigrants were to go out to that country, that any merchants there could advance these persons food and implements to any considerable extent on credit i — I think they would, if they had the guarantee I mention, or if they were morally convinced that the persons were worthy of credit. 1111. Do you think the merchants generally have capital enough to allow of such long credit as » ould he necessary in their general transactions for these advances ? — • The settlers would scon be able to make some re-payments tu the merchant, for he would be on the spot to receive any produce the settlers had to spare, and they would soon ("pare a little. ma. Do they not find difficulty in collecting the debts they create ?— Sometimes, as they depend upon the produce of the lands; but a great number of merchants have niade considerable fortunes there. 1113. Are the mcrclianis generally punctual in their payments, or the reverse? — I am not prepared to give an exact answer to that question, I do not think they are more backward in paying their debts than people generally are ; soue pay by instalments, some pay punctual, and some not so punctual. 1114. A gentleman, Mr. Felton, has stated^ " I am so convinced of the great facility ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1897. 135 facility which settlers, enjoying the advantage proposed to be aflbrded to them, possess to make their payments in the terms prescribed, tliat I should have no hesitation whatever in binding myself to the extent of 10,000/. to make up any deficiency in the payment of the first year's interest in either of the two provinces, provided that a proper degire of judgment be exhibited in the location of the settlers on the land;" are t ere many Mr. Feltons in the Canadas? — Very few are able to risk so much, but almost every gentleman in the provinces would risk something; I would risk 1,000/. upon the same ground, but 1 could not risk so much us io,0(io/. 1115. But are there many individuals of propcity who would guarantee the repayment, in various sums from 500/. to io,ouo/. r — I think there are muny. 1116. Supposing individuals in this country were to lend money upon tlie security of this land, do you not imagine, without difficulty, some machinery might be devised in the provinces, to enforce payment as well an if the parties lending it were there themselves ? — Yes, I think so. 1 1 1 7. Do you not believe the local legislature would give every facility to the enforcement of the payment, under such circumstances ? — With the greatest pleasure. 1118. You have no doubt that the King's Government would give every possible assistance? — Certainly not. 1119. Do you think, with the united assistance of the King's Government and the local legislature, there would be any danger accrue to the parties in this country who lent their money ? — No ; and I was thinking of proposing a scheme in this Country to facilitate settlers, and lend them money, depending on repayment at the end of seven years. 1120. Are the Committee to understand, that it is the general want of capital in the country, where there is a small population and a threat quantity of fertile land, which is the reason why money cannot be immediately advanced in the colony on this security r — Unquestionably ; want of capital entirely. 1121 Is there a considerable portion of the clergy reserves at present under lease? — Yes. 1 1 22. Are the rents paid for these lands, or are they let at a nominal rent, which is received? — There was no means of getting these rents, until a few years ago. 1133. What were the difficulties in getting these rents, which would not stand in the way of getting rents from otlier lands ? — There was no person, till lately, who had any interest in enforcing their collection ; and there was a difference of opinion among the crown officers, whether it should be by common process or by extent, as belonging to the crown ; a considerable sum has however been collected, and there will be little difficulty hereafter in making the payments regular, if proper care is taken. 1 1 34. Are the payments now made or not, in fact ? — ^The payments are getting more and more regular every year. 1 1 25. Do you consider there is any difference in principle between the rent of the clergy reserves and the rent of any other lands whatever, or that the security is better in one case than in the other? — The people think that rent paid from the clergy reserves is an easy sort of rent ; they conceive that other persons would be much more severe, and demand a higher rent. 1126. Wouliri the inference you draw from that be, that you would be more likely to receive rent from the clergy reserves than from other lands ? — Not more likely. 1127. What is the reason you have to expect they will be paid from other lands when the rents are heavier? — I said I did not apprehend there would be any great difficulty whenever proper machinery was adopted, which is not the case at this moment. There has been a delicacy ; the reason of waiting for the decision of the Crown officers was this, that in one process it was expensive, and would eat up the rent for five or six years, it is so small, and it is a matter of con- sequence to ascertain that point first; but I apprehend there will be no difficulty in future. 1 1 aS. Are the Committee to understand, without recourse to some process of law, those rents would not be properly paid ? — That would not be often the case if they were exacted regularly. 1 i 29. Has it been the case yet ? — It has, with regard to the clergy reserves. ' 1130. Do you not think that the fact of an emigrant gaining a tiee-simple in his ' 550. R4 property Dr. Jolin Slracian. 13 March, 1897. n h I , I, i. ' Dr. Jokm Sirachan. 13 March, lS<7. Capt. WiUiaM Martkal. 13 March 1837. 136 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE property would be an additional reason for his paying the rent for that, than for the clergy reserves? — I mentioned in my evidence last year, that there was an objection against rent in that country ; they lii(e tlic fee-simple, ar.d dislike any thing in the shape of rent. 1131. Is not rent redeemable the same as fee-simple? — Yes, if it b considered as interest, or a sum that may be bought up. . . Captain William Marshal, called in ; and Examined. « 1133. HAVE you had an opportunity of hearing the evidence of Doctor Strachan ? — Yes. , ,. ,, , 1 133. Have you been in charge of the Lanark settlement ? — Yes. 1 1 34. Are you intimately acquainted with the habits, and circumstances, and customs of settlers ? — Perfectly so. 1 135. Do you concur with Dr. Strachan in the opinion, that under proper regu- lation, there is no real chance of this repayment not being effectual r — I do concur entirely with him. 1136. You would not hesitate to give your own individual opinion to any persons inquiring if they should lend their money on such security, advising them to lend it ? — Certainly not, I should recommend it as a safe security in the long run. 1137. Taking it upon an average, you would recommend it? — Yes. 1138. Do you consider, in cases where death or accident might remove the party, the land in itself would not be a sufficient security ? — It would ; as the country became settled, it would become more valuable, . and thereby become a good security. 1139. How soon do you suppose that a settler of ordinary industry, located on bis 100 acres, can begin to make any capital at all ? — The general opinion is, and I am of that opinion also, that at the end of seven years he would be very able to pay the interest of the money he may receive. 1 140. How much money, or money's worth, at the end of seven years, will it be in the power of that settler to pay annually ? — It depends on many circumstances. 1141. If a settler had lou/. lent him, within what period of time would he be able to pay 5/. per cent interest upon that sum, and in what period of time would he be able to pay back the principal ? — At the end of seven years he certainly would be able to pay interest, and that would always urge him to pay the principal as early as possible. If the interest is rigidly exacted, no doubt he would find it his interest to pay the principal in the course of time. It would depend upon what bis family consisted of, whether they could render him any service or not. 1142. Would he not be able to pay more than five pounds worth of produce at the end of seven years ?— Most undoubtedly he would. 1143. Could he pay more ? — Yes. 1 144. Do you suppose that at the end of seven years be would be able to spare 10/. ■^otth of prduce annually?— I think he would. ! t |i iralter BurrtU, Egq. 15 March, it4 men, 64 wouien, 1 87 children ; of these, constantly employed, 39, casually employed, 37 ; time lost, divided into months, 93 — that, multiplied by 8 *. pro- duces 148/. per annum; this will amount to 505 /. loss upon the labour. Com- puted age of the married male labourers belonging to the parish : from 20 to 30 years of age, 20 in the parish, and out of it, 12 ; from 30 to 40 years of age, in the parish, 39, out of it, 25, which amounts to 64 ; from 40 to 50 years of age, 36 in the parish, and so out of the parish, amounting to 46 ; from 50 to 60 years of •ge. ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM, 1827. 137 age, 31 in the parisii, and 5 out of the parish ; above that age, 10 in the parisii, and 4 out of the parish, amounting to 1 4. There arc i8i married men em])lo}'ed in the parish, and 51 farmers ; rental of land, 3,849/.; tradesmen. 34 ; trade and cottagers amount to 1 66 /. rental ; making a total of 3,0 1 5 /. For the last four years, there have been three assessments of 4s. In the pound ; the number of acres in the parish, '5,3,51. And there is rather a curious circumstance as to the births, marriages, and baptisms ; the Cotnmitteo will find that in the last ten years there have been ao6 burials, and the baptisms have amounted to 413. 1 145. Are there any dissenters in the parish ? — A few, but not to make it of any consequence. The marriages in the last ten years were 8a. 1146. Has the number of marriages diminished ? -Yes : the marriages in 1817 wereseven; 1818, eleven; 1819, five; i8ao, seven; 1831, four; 1823, eleven; 1 823, eleven ; 1 824, eleven ; 1 825, ten ; 1 826, five. The allowances in the parish are, for a man and his wife, with three children under thirteen, 30s. for the rent of a cottage; a man and his wife with four children, receives 3/. for rent, and la. per week for every child above thres and under thirteen years old ; to tiiese, me* dicine is also given. Persons out of the poor-house, who are occasionally employed, receive is. 6d. to 2s. per head per week from the parish ; widows, with a family of small children, receive is. 6d. per head per week; old widows, 2s. per week. It has been the custom of the parish of West Grinstcad and the adjoining parishes, for many years, to let the boys and girls, from the age of is years to 16 and 17, from Lady-day to Lady-day, by giving their employers from 3d. to gd. per week, and Aos. a year for clothes for each, which amounts yearly to from 150/. to 180/. It is supposed there are from 30 to 50 men out of employment, from four to five months in the year ; and for three months, from 70 to 75 who are entirely dependent upon the parish for support. The number of men, women and children in the poor-house, is 40 ; but in the winter months it averages between 40 and 50, having at that time single young men in the house who cannot find any kind of employ- ment. The parish pays 3s. a head for all in the poor-house, whether old or young. The amount of the poor-rate in 1824, was 1,796/. 14«. ; in 1825, 1,804/. 2j. ; in 1826, 1,924/. 14«. The real fact of the case is, that several gentlemen, who have property in the neighbourhood, have been expending very large sums of money m making roads and forming canals, in order to keep them employed. Next winter this canal will be completed, we shall have expended 1 0,000 /. upon it ; and if it is so severe a winter this year as it was last, we shall expect to have from 70 to 80 people in the poor-house. I beg to deliver in a letter, detailing the expenses of the parish of Pulborough. " Sir, [TTie foUming Letter was delivered in.] " I send you the Expenses of the parish of Pulborough in the county of Sussex, for one year. You will see that 318/, of the poor-rates are thrown away in idle men on the roads; and that io five years, including the highway rates, 3,553/. have been expended on the roads, of which 1,93a?. have been taken from the poor-rates. In the years ending April 1824 and 1825, the occupiers of land em> ployed one man on their farms for every 25 /. a year rating in the poor book, which continued partly through the year 1836, except by one person occupying 400 acres, who will not take his proportion, which has induced the other occupiers of land to discontinue their proportion, and we have now 95 men on the roads, many of them without tools. Is it not worth considering, whether the determination of a large majority of a parish to employ the agricultural labourers in any way which shall not favour one more than another, with the approbation of the magistrates in petty or quarter sessions, might not be made legally binding on the mmority ? I am aware that much care must be taken to prevent an unequal pressure, especially on small parishes. .. j ^^^ gj^^ ^^j, ^^^^^ ^^^p^^.^^ " Your obedient humble Servant, tralttr Hurrttl, ttq. Ij MhicIi, ' 1 i k 1 i ] 1 '; li f : 11 Pulborough, December 14, 1826." " John Justin, Rectir." 580. ''I 'f V t ii lyoUer Burrell, Eiq. 15 March, 138 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE PuLBOBouoH, Sussex. *' Acres, 6,000; population, a.ooo; poor-rates, 1,319/. or 334. a head; wages, lOf. a week ; wheat grown, 700 loads ; poor tax, 66t. on each load. Expenditure from April 1825 to April 1826 : . , ,,. Extra work on the Roads (not required) to employ £. 1. d. Labourers in want of work .... 318 - -J Constables, principally on account of Vagrants - 23 2 7 Beadle, to drive away the vagrants - - - afi - - Acting Overseer, salary - - - - - a6--v' Attending Bench and Justice, and fees and other journies and expenses - - - - - 50 83^ Horses and Carts to Petworth, &c. - - - 93- Expense of two Appeals, both gained - - - 44 7 3 j,,' County Rate 54 7 8 ,,., . Medical attendance - - - - - - 72136 .,.,. Churchwardens, instead of a rate - - - - 12 4 3 :.;' Relief 1,683 a 9^ £.3.319 8 3f Expended on the Roads, includingl g _ _ « « , highway rate, in 5 years -J • - i 9 r ru- u » . /• ,„.i '823 - - 881 13 10 [Highway Rate, /;. 324.] ,324 • - 60515 6 i , . 1825 - - 584 4 lO ,j..«.1 .' '..,j ... 1826 " - 642 - - j^ 'V " ' —'•"•■ ^.3.552 7 - Z "'^'" of which ;f. 3,55 3. Ts. the sum of;^. 1,932. T s. has been taken from the poor'-rates. 1147. Are you of opinion that the distress arising from over population, the details of which you have now given to the Committee, as to certain parishes, is generally extensive through the weald of Sussex ? — Yes, certainly, except in a very few small parishes. 1148. Supposing that the redundant labourers in the parish to which you belong, were willing to avail themselves of emigration to any of the possessions of the Crown, are you of opinion that there would be a unanimous desire on the part of the rate payers to contribute to that object ? — I have not the slightest doubt about it. 1 149. For example, could you inform the Committee what expense you consider to be incurred by the parish, in a family consisting of a man, his wife and three children, who may be considered as entirely dependent on the parish for support throughout the year, with the exception perhaps of the weeks of harvest? — I should say throughout the year without employment, 25/. it, it would cost the parish for a man and his wife and three children. 1130. Does that include the rent?— Yes, it includes the rent. 1151. That is the whole expense of the farish? — Yes, and without any children it would cost 18/. \os. ; with one child, s'l /. ; with two children, 23/. \ot. ; with three children, 35/. %s. ; with four children, 29/. io«. ; with five children, 32/. 3«.; with six children, 34/. 14«. 1152. Are you of opinion that the rate payers would consent to charge the rates of the parish with an annuity for lO years of 7/.1 upon which the sum of 50/. might be borrowed, to furnish the means of promoting the emigration of any parties willi'-.g to emigrate ? — I should say, without any doubt, they would be very glad to do so. 1 153. You are of opinion, then, that the rate payers do not look to the occurrence of any circumstances tliat may have the effect of preventing those parties continuing chargeable to the parish ? — They look unwillingly to the future ; I do not see bow it is possible to go on. 1 1 54. You have stated to the Committee, that that artificial employment which has been put into action, must come to an end at no distant period, after which the rates would be more severely charged? — My own opinion is, supposing we have such a winter as the last, that the rales will be very materially increased ; alarntingly \ ONEMlOnATION FllOM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSi?. » 39 alarmingly so next year, for I can state that in this district we have expended between 15,000 /. and 20,000 /. in the last few years, in the employment of tlic people ; we have cut down every hill in the country, and made new roads; we have made iC ^ miles of new turnpike road right through the country. 1155. In your opinion, would die rate payers prefer raising no I, in two years, by instalments of a.<; /. each year, to spreading it over a period of ten yi>ars at 7 /, a year, thereby eflecting an immediate sensible reduction in the poor-rates? — No, because they are all tenants at will, and they would not like to pay down so largo a sum. 1 156. Vou think there would be a feeling that the best mode would be to spread it over a space of ten years ? — Yes. 1157. Would there l)e any obicciioa to ten years ? — None. 1 158. You are aware that it would be the intention of this Committee not to recommend any class of emigrants to receive assistance, who were not able-bodied and competent to work, and within certain ages ; do you consider that that restriction would make the rate payers less desirous of availing themselves of this system of emigration ?— No, because we cannot employ the peo()le, a:, it is ; we should be very glad to send out able-bodied young men of decent families. 1 159. Supposing you had no alternative but to pay 8 /. instead of 7/. which would cover 60/., would any objection exist in the rate payers to incur such a charge? — I think not. 1160. Do you think that the rate payers would be more disposed to pay an annuity of 7/. or 8/. for the space of 10 years, for the purpose of raising money for this object, or that they would be disposed to pay down the whole sum at once, or in two or three years? — I am satisfied they would prefer the extended period, because there is not a man in our country who will take a lease. 1161. Do you imagine, from your knowled(^ of the managentent of the parish, there would be any practical difficulty in receivmg from parishes any charge upon their rates for that purpose ? — I can see none at all ; I would take upon myself to remit the money from this parish, to any person appointed to receive it. ii6i. Do you think, as a general rule, there would be the slightest difficulty in arranging with the magistrates or the gentlemen in the neighbourhood, to remit to the county treasurer that sum which by the terms of the arrangement was to proceed from the parish ? — I should conceive none at all, any more than in collecting the county rates. 1 1 03. Do you not think that every thing connected with the levying and paying thb money into the hands of the county treasurer might be carried on by local arrangements in the county, without mixing it up with the Government, or a Board of Emigration, if any such were established ? — Certainly. 11(14. If the plan of charging the rates witti annuities for 10 or 12 years should be acted upon to a considerable extent, would not any in-coming tenant two or three years hence find the rates very considerably reduced ? — I should say decidedly so, there is no doubt about it ; and with respect to people coming in, we know now how to manage those things ; the only people coming in would be those belonging to the parish who resided out of it. 1165. The question applied to farmers entering into farms? — I have answered that question already. 1166. Are you of opinion that efficient local measures would be taken by the rate payers in this parish as far as legislation allowed them, to prevent the recurrence of a settlement that might lead to a similar redundancy of population, and similar in* convenience ? — I am satisfied it is so much for their convenience and benefit, they would look very closely to it. 1167. Have you ever turned your attention to any measure of legislation which it would be desirable to pass, to give power to the rate payers to prevent such recurrence ?-~I know of no way except by pulling down the cottages ; I am the holler of a great many cottages, and my only reason for keeping them up is, that the poor people would have no place to put their heads in if they were pulled down. 1168. Are the Committee to understand that the greater part of this parish is you own property? — No, about 1,700 acres; a great deal is my brother's property. . ii6(). The class of people to whom the cottages belong, are landed proprietors? — Yes, gentlemen residing at a distance ; some of them belong to the farmers ; . i59> S 3 there H'aUtr Burritt, lA Much, i8fl7. ". il it i| f 'i ( f tTalltr BurrtU, Eiq. 15 March, 18)17. 140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE there are no gentlemcii in the parish besides the clergyman, the Rev. William Wood- ward, and myself. 1 1 70. How many cottages are paid reht for, that do not belong to gentlemen of property in the parish ? — 1171. You have said, that a man, woman, and three children cost the parish if there was a proposal to remove them, what would the parish be to pay down? — I should say they would be willing to pay 6/. io«. 35/. 8*. prepared a year. 1 1 73. It costs now 35 /. a year to support these people ; would there be any doubt the parish would be prepared to pay down 25/. r — I should say, as a pro- prietor, certainly ; but as a yearly tenant of land, having no lease, I should decline to do so 1 1 73. Do you not consider it very unfair that the present temporary occupier should be able to charge his successor with a fixed annuity that should fall upon him alone ? — It would be so beneficial to his successor, that he could not object to it ; I have not the slightest doubt about its succeeding. 1 1 74. To what cause do you attribute the presence of this extra population in this pariiih r — I should say first, that Sussex is infinitely the most healthy county in England, according to its population returns ; in the next place, the farmers have acted upon a very absurd and stupid plan, they will not employ single men, the consequence is, that a man immediately marries ; and they likewise give a premium upon population, for they give to a man with four children 1 s, a week for that fourth child, and so on for every other beyond that. 1 1 75. Are not the wages of a single man reduced to the smallest possible sum on which a single man can live r — No, I should say not ; I employ a great many of them, and I pay them lOj. a week in the winter. 1 1 76. You say there would be a difficulty in coming forward with an immediate sum from a temporary occupant; do you think any arrangement could be made between the immediate occupiers and the owners of the land, that could facilitate the raising of an immediate sum ? — I should doubt it. 1177. If powers were given by Act of Parliament to mortgage the rates, and a change of tenantry took place before the debt was paid off, the in-coming tenant would pay less rent to the landlord than the outgoing tenant ? — ^That depends upon the terms of the agreement. 1178. if there was a fixed debt upon the land, and a change of tenantry took place before the debt was paid off, would not the in-coming tenant refuse to pay the same rent that the outgoing tenant had paid ? — No, I think not, in our county. There is one circumstance that, I think, I ought to mention : I have looked over Major Moody's evidence, and I am quite surprised how he should have been able to have collected so much information in the short space of time he was there, he must have been extremely active in bis inquiries. In the parishes of Shipley and West Grinstead there are select vestries, and each has a permanent overseer. I have had from 30 to a.<; men digging stones this year for me, as a surveyor of roads, in order to make a road which is of no consequence, in order that they might be employed. 1 1 79. Do you think there is a strong disposition on the part of those persons un- employed in this parish to remove to North America of their own will? — I do not know, I never asked any body upon the subject ,* I only know, as far as the farmers and landowners are concerned, they would be very glad to send them. 1180. What is your opinion upon the subject?— My own opinion is, they are very comfortable at home, and they would not like to go ; but if I could persuade a few families to go, and they made a favourable report, that would alter the case. 1181. Have you any doubt that when the real state of the settlers in North America was made known, upon evidence that they could not doubt, that there would be any difficulty in inducing a few families to go ? — None whatever. 1 18a. Are you not of opinion that others would be induced to go, if those families made a favourable report? — I have no doubt of it 1 183. If the existing Poor Laws were rigidly enforced, and no relief given out of the wcrkhouse, do you not believe that a ngid execution of it would make the poor ^«opIe willing to leave this country ? — Yes. 1 1 84. Do you consider, under the law as it stands, that supposing this sort of provision to be made for emigration, you can take effectual measures against the influx of new settlers ?— Yes. ->«- > ^ -4 7- I should say that this would be tvholly illegul. 1 208. And that is couutcnunccd in your parish ?— No, it is not ; we liave de- cided against it ; und I beg 10 add, that in my ineniorv, twenty-four or twenty-five years ago, single men were kept by the farmers, and lived with then), they all dined together at the same table, but that has been long given ujp ; and the re&ion was in consequence of tiie tax timt was levied, for if when a farmer came home from market, and one of those labourers took his horse and put it into the stable, lie was surcharged ; und that was the reason of its being given up. 1; -. . Mr. Thomas Bradbury, called in \ and Examined. ''" • • " ' Mr. 1 209. WHAT parish do you belong to? — The parish of Great llorwood, in Th,.mnt Bradbury. Buckinghamshire. ' " 1210. Are you overseer in that parish ? — Not at this time ; I have been. 1211. You are intimately acquainted with all the details of the parish rales? — Yes. 1212. Have you had an opportunity of hearing the evidence just given before the Committee ?— Yes. 1213. Do you concur in opinion with the Member of the Committee, just examined, that it would be to the interest of the rate payers to consent to mortgage their rates for a certain period of years, to raise money for the purpose of emi- gration ? — Yes, I think it very desirable indeed ; and I think the people would be willing to emigrate. There is one point in regard to paying rates of labour, it is an advantage to the large proprietor to pay the labourers out of tiie rates ; for the small occupier, who does his labour himself, pays part of the large occupier's labour, which is very unfair; and it swells the rates more than it would other- wise do. 1214. You are of opinion that if the poor in that part of the country where yon live, were made sensible of the independence which, under circumstances of in- dustry, they might obtain as emigrants, there would be no continued disposition on their part to refuse to become emigrants ?— I should think not ; but such a case has never been proposed to them, and I cannot answer for it. 1215. What would you be disposed to estimate, in vour part of the country, the expense of maintaining a man, woman, and three children, supposed to be entirely lependent on the parish for a whole year? — I should think somewhere about 2,5/, »jr 26 /. 1216. You do not think, in point of fact, less than that is incurred in their maintenance? — Noi the quantity of labourers in the country where I live, is about one-third more than can get regular employment, so that one-third i:i supported at parochial expense. 1217. If that one-third was removed, just as much real work would be done in the country as is now done ? — Yes, undoubtedly ; they are employed in some way or other, but the other two-thirds would do the labour. 1218. Are you not aware that the condition of that two-thirds is very much deteriorated and prejudiced by that one-third for whose labour there is no demand ? — Undoubtedly. 1219. Have you any doubt there would be a disposition on the par^ of the rate payers to promote emigration, on the principle of contributing, eitlier by paying the money down, or charging the rates ; and that if it was duly explained to the poor, there would be no difficulty in their availing themselves of such opportunity for emigration ' — No ; I think it would be very much to their advantage, and no objection to it. 1220. Are there any manufactures in your parish ? — None at all, except the lace manufacture by female«. 1221. Is not the condition of the poor a suffering condition? — It is miserable. I took down an account, the other day, from a man who was some years older than myself; I remember his coming into the parish with his wife, 50 years ago; lie was sitting down in my house, and I said to him, Thomas, can you remember the price of provisions when you first came to the parish ? he said he could ; and I got a pen and ink and Cdlculated every article, and the price of provisions in those ON EMKSKATION FROM THE UNITFU KINGDOM iba;. 14, those timcA. I then asked liiiii what iiii own rent wu ; lie lioppcitrH not to bo in tlw Mine situation always, but tie lived in tlie tuuic huuie tlmi a« lornit'iiy, ho tuld mo the rent ; the price of provitioni I bad UfA down in anutlier column in thcte - timet ; and I found b^ tliat calculation, that his labour would lie exactly the Miiiie, proviition for a man with a wife and four children, an now. 1 333. You mean a lingle man's labour ? — Vc> ; it would be the tame provisiim as was allowed now for a man, his wife and four children. 1333. Without any power of iuppl3^in|; himself with clothinf{? — Ye*, witliout that : \m labour was vs. |ior week, now it in about 8«. ; and llierefore tiiere are only at. to iwy for all those extraordinary prices of provisions. 1334. Do you not consider that the main reason of tlie distress of tlie labourers now, compared with what it was then, arises from the redundancy of labourers, and the consequent depreciation of the price of labour >'— Yes. 1 335. Who pays the cottage rents in your (Hirt of ttte country ?•— Chiefly the occupiers. 1336. Arc they paid out of the parish rates ? — No, 1337. Do you think that t^ie proprietors of cottages would be disposed to resist this plan of Emigration, in consequence of losing the rent of those cottages ? — No, I do not. 1338. You arc of opinion thot their sense of the di»tre»s of the |K)or, and the inconvenience of the present system, would superMcdo any objection on account of the loss of rent? — Yes; I think they would be dis|)osed to emigrate, most of them ; they cannot be more miserable than they arc. 1 339. ilavc you ever happened to near this subject of emigration talked of i — Yes, we have read it in the papers. 1 330. Have you ever heard any expression on the part of these poor people, that they would be disposed to go ? — Ko, but I have not u doubt when it is com- municated to them in a fair light, that they would bo willing to go ; tlicrc are many of them now going to the United States from several parts of our county ; there may be some gentlemen here from Kent ; I have this morning seen a friend of mine, who says a gentleman in Kent is sending them otf by waggon loads to the United States now, and those that went first, that emigrated from tiiis principle, arc sending for all their relations and friends they can get to go over. 1331. Have you ony further explanations that you wish to give (o this Com- mittee ? — Not any thing particular, that I know of. I must say this, that I have beei:' a farmer to a largish extent, till unfortunately I had a large family, and my business was reduced. I have had a great deal of practice in parish afliiirs, and farming of all descriptions, and 1 think now the farmers take too much advantage of the labouring community ; by being ovcrburtbened, they press them too much ; there is a great deal of theft and sheep-stealing about the county, arising from that ; necessity drives them to it ; there has been a wonderful number in Aylesbury gaol, for sheep stealing, and robbing hen-roosts, and those petty things ; the gaol has been thronged with them ; it is distress that drives them to it. I know two or three who bore a very good character, but the distress of the times has driven them to commit those things which they had never done before. 1333, Do you not believe that if Emi^'ration was to take place, thot that description of crime would be very much diminishti? — Yes, I do; and when it is properly explained to them, I have not a doubt many would be willing to go. 1 333. Do you think that the parishes in the ncightwurhood would object to paying £. 8. a year for ten years, for the removal of a man, a woman, and three children, sup^wing such family to be entirely a charge throughout tlie year upon the parish ? — If they consider it in the right light, as I should, I think they will be in favour of it, rather than keep them at home ; I think that it would be an advan- tage to them. 1 334. You have stated, that the expense is £. 25. s year ; consequently the immediate saving would be £.17. a year ? — Yes. 1335. 1'hen the only question for consideration would be, whether there is any chance of the poor-rates being diminished from natural causes during the next ten years, that could prevent their agreeing to such a proposal i — ^The rates fluctuate accordiug to the price of bread and wheat. 1336. Have the poor-rates been increasing? — Yes, they have. 1237. Do you see any chance of the poor-rates diminisning considerably in your part of the coubtry, unless a great portion of the poor arc removed?— No, there is no chance whatever ; they are more likely to increase. . 550. S 4 IBS'?. Do Mr Tkom»t Bridburi). 1) Miircb, ill?. fi if M I Mr. 144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMHTEE, 1338. Do not the poor live very hircl? — Yc« *]***"'* "'■•''*'"•>• lajy, WImi is the common diet u|)on ««hicli a iaJwurcr unil his fiimily are living: 15 Mtrch, llJ7. -tliitrty bread, very litile tUo ; only a bit of meat on Sunday, i4(>. What ttoi t of bread ? — They have it at the bakori chiefly, it ii a lecondary sort. 1341. And tear— Yes. U43. Without sugar?— Yes. 1343. Or milk? — Yes, lea three or four times a Hay, if they are women. 1344. They get no milk i — There is very little milk to be liad, or susar; if ynii consider the allowance of six or seven shillings a week for a man and Itis family, there is not much sugar to be had. 1345. What are the rates you give to persons in your parish ?— There is an allowance for children. I S46. What is the nrincipie upon which you give that allowance to persons having families in your parish r— They give after the rate of one shilling each child more than two, when under ten years of age. 1347. When they arc under two, yon give nothing? — No, only the weekly al- lowance, and that would be about seven shillings a week. 1 348. Then a man with three or four children is better off than a man not having two children ? — Yes, he is. 1 349. Therefore the effect of the rates is to tempt those poor people to have nu- merous families ?— Yes, it is so; but absolutely in the time of war the poor live better, because they had a louf each child ; if a child was born, the man went directly and absolutely demanded his loaf, and he had a loaf a week, which amounted to half a crown a week, when .he child lived upon its mother, for two yean. 1 350. What do the men get at road work in your parish ? — They are put on the road, when there is no other employment for them ; thev are paid according to their families, a single man has 3;. per week, a man able to earn is. or lOi.; theu there are some at 43. and some 5«. and different wages; the reason fur single men having such small wages is, because they are apt to stop at home instead of going to service, it is to drive them to service; they almost starve them to service. 1251. Those single men that are on the road, or in the gravel pit, paid by the parish 3a. a Mcek, do they do much work ? — No, very little, they go away for three or four hours ; I have watched them a little time back. There is a road being made near wiiere I live ; I have found them three hours gone to dinner, and two hours to breakfast. 1352. Are they not in the habit of getting married, in order to get the allowance? —Yes; when they cannot live any longer as single men, they marryi and go to tlie overseer for employment and a house. 1253- They get married in the morning, and then go to the overseer for a house ? — Yes. I i \tl \ w D.P.Fraittu, Eaq. 17 March, 1837. Sabhati, 17* die Martii, 1827. David Policy Francis, Esq. calleilin; and Examined. , 1 254. HOW long is it since you left the Cape ? — Rather more than two years. 1 255. Were you there at the time when Mr. Ingram's emigration arrived there ? — Yes. 1 25(1. Are you able to inform the Committee as to the condition of the parties now within the colony?— I presume they are generally doing very well ; but there have been great obstacles to their doing well, m consequence of the immense debt they have to pay to Mr. Ingram. 1257. Are you aware of the extent of that debt per head? — It was 300 rix dollars for each male adult. 1358. What will that be in sterling ? — At the time Mr. Ingram arrived there, it would be 30/. according to the then rate of exchange. 1259. What do you imagine would be the expense of each of these emigrants, for their passage? — I think about 15/. 1260. Were they attended with their wives and children ? — Generally. |2()i. Ill estimating the expense at 15/. per head, do you meai) generally for qicn, they ofh WOA sarK I ON EMKJilATION lUOM THE I'MTKD KINtiDOM isa?. 14, men, Humcii Mid dtiliircn ?— I tliink |irolmbly it iniKlit be done lur Ivtt, taking u lamily ij6j. Will you hiivr the (toodnrst to ioforni the OonimitlcT what yon viiiniair to Iw li)e <>x|icii!t(' ot tlic pussii^i', Hiul mipporl during it, lor 11 iimii, Moiimx uml llirce cliiidrcii ? — I made n few notcii fur niy own inloniintion, it° I rnny Im; alloMol to Itnik attliein. [The ll'itnens referral (o notne privaU numorumla.] I tliiiik iil>out 43/. taking a iniin, liiw t«ifo nn*i tlirrc c'liildren, that would lie about ()/. u liciid. 1303. ilnvc you ever turncil your attention to any siuiple principle ol repayment which niiKht be adopted with r<-Mpcct to a laliouri'r nmm but to the colony of lliu Capo of Ciood Hope, where the demand for laliour is such an to procure him ade- quate remuneration for his scrvicen? — Ve», 1 have turned my attention to that Hubject, and 1 think that it might be done, if not to the full extent, ut JeoM to a ^reat part of it ; but I apprehend llicrc muitt bo a totally new rate of wagen previoii.ily established in tlio colony, for, under present circumHtuncci*, neither the price that is paid for a labourer can answer the purpo.«c of the employer, nor in it at all neces- sary as rcoards the price for the necessaries of life, it is so much in excess. 1 a(')4. Did you examine the statement made last year before this Committee by Mr. Carlisle, us to the rate of wages ut the Cape t)f Ciood liopc'r — Ves. ia6.v Do you consider that to be correct i* — I apprehend Mr. Carlisle cannot mean it as general or permanent wages, but only wages paid under peculiar cir- cumstances. 1 jGO. Will you slate in what res|)ect you dilTer from Mr. Carlisle, ond what you consider to bo the general rate of wages for a lubourcr at the Cope P — Wliere I difl'er is in this, that the rate of wages that has been slated by Mr. ('arlislo is puid by persons being obliged to employ labour at that price from necessity, not from any view of pront arising from thut labour. 1 267. What do you consider to be the average rate of wages of an able-bodied agricultural labourer at the Cape? — It is so indefinite, I can hardly state a rate of wages ; labour has been so scarce, that it has been employed occnbionally only. Where, for instance, the employer wanted any particular piecu of w ork done, which in fact was necessary even for his own subsistence and thut of his family, he would then be obliged to employ labour at any rate for a short period ; but it could never *)e supposed for a moment that it would answjr by way of profit; no produce which could bo raised from such labour would bo at all equal to the expense of 4«. per day, as stated in Mr. Carlisle's evidence of last year. 1368. If the produce is not equul to the expense of labour, how do you account for the produce being raised and |>aid for at that rate ? — I think it is not, certainly not in the new settlement. 1 36q. Will you distinguish the different produces of dift'erent parts of the Ca|)0 of Good Hope, and mention the circumstances of labour which belong to each of them 7 — The old colonists, in the Cape district for instance, and those nearest the great market, can afford to pay more for labour than they can in the new settle- ment. The old coloni»t« g(i)i(mlly employ slave labour, or Hottentots, or any that thoy can get; but ^ am quite of opinion the old colonists would never tliink of employing labour at Uiat rate, 43. per day. 1370. You a»ve stated, that it is difficult to mention an average rate of wages, as the labourers are not uniformly employed ; but at the same time can you inform the Committee wlMt, in your opinion, may be considered as an average rate under these circumstakices ? — I consider that an entire new rate of wages must bo esta- blished ; I sliould say the rate of wages that is stated to be paid in the colony, 4^. per day, a person working two or three days in the week at most, would be sumcieot to maintain him, und that might be considered the present average rate of wages. 1371. What can a labouring man, by his labour through the year, taking upon an average cmuloyment and no employment, put in his pocket? — The rate of wages of Mr. Ingrains settlers was about 2s. ^d. per day. 1272. Were Mr. Ingram's settlers bound by indenture? — Generally, I believe they were. 1273. Then what is the rate which a person bound by nothing at all might dispose of bis labour for a year ? — I think he would not get above that, a a. 3d. a day, if he wa& constantly employed. 1 274. But that 2s. 3d. a dav would iirocure him a great proportion of the neces- saries of life in that colony ? — fivery thing with comfort. 1275. If he were to receive only half of that sum, would he still be in a situation 550. . T to /) 17 MitrrI), u , r 1 D. P. Francii, Esq. 17 March 1817. iiiu V i!lU 146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE to command, as compared with the English labourer, a fair proportion of the neceS" saries of life?— Certainly I think he wouW, in the interior. 1 276. For ts.3d.tL day he would be well paid as a labourer, if he had it invari- ably throughout the year? — Certainly. 1 277. Supposing an emigration of labourers to take place to the Cape, well chosen in point of age and the competency of the parties to work, to what extent, in your opinion, could such an euiigrution take place in the course of the present year, so as to have the effect of supplying labour enough for the general pur(X)ses of the colony, at a rate that would enable the labourers not only to live comfortably, but would at the same time provide a fund which would progressively liquidate any expenses incurred in their removal ? — I should think that the colony at present would take from six or seven hundred a year of all ages, of the lalwuring class, independent of any who went to colonize; I make that distinction. 1278. To return to the question put to you in the early part of your examination, are you prepared to point out to the Committee any plain and simple mode under which an emigrant could, conjointly with the person inro whose service he might go upon his arrival, bind himself to repay any expense, or part of any expense that might be incurred in his removal f — Yes, I think one shilling a day with subsistence would be ample for such purpose. 1279. What do you mean by a shilling a day with subsistence? — I mean if emigrants were to be bound for live years at that rate. 1 280. What do you mean by the expression, " a shilling a day with subsistence," is it exclusive of his provisions ? — Exclusive of his provbions ; I mean it as a general , rate of wages in the colony, not alluding to the new settlement. I should calculate under these circumstances 300 working days in the year, which would make his wages amount to 15/.; supposing he was bound for five years, I think then 3 /. a year might be fairly paid out of those wages towards liquidating the transport of the emigrant from Europe to the colony. 1 281. What does his subsistence per day cost? — In the interior I think they could subsist upon from 6d. to yd. a day with great comfort. 1283. Then in point of fact the wages of labour would be ta. gd. instead of a shilling? — Yes, they would, in the colony generally. 1 283. Do you suppose that the colonist with whom this emigrant might be placed would undertake himself to pay that rate per annum, making his separate bargain with the labourer r — I think he might make that bargain, and safely; but whether there would be sufficien'i; call for the produce he would raise at first, is another matter. I propose he should give the labourer one shilling per day, and have him bound for five years, and the 3/. a year should go towards liquidating the expense of his transport fi-om thij country to the colony. 1284. ^o you mean the 3/. a year should be out of that shilling a day? — Yes. 1 285. Do you mean on this statement, that the persons in the colony who are now labourers, should continue to receive wages fluctuating towards 23. 3d, while these new settlers should receive wages at the rate of 1 s. gd. ? — I think they would gradually lower to that rate, and by so doing they would in some measure supersede slave labour ; because I am of opinion they would still get below that, if there were an adequate supply yearly. 1 3bd. Are you of opinion, in case of settlers being sent out bound for the tern> of five years in the manner proposed, that when that period was over they would find opportunities of settling themselves as colonists, rather than continue to work for others as labourers ? — No doubt they would. 1 287. Then you are of opinion that that result would naturally lead to a perpetual demand for labourers at the Cape, to be supplied annually according to circum- stances ?— Yes, but gradually. 1288. You have no doubt, therefore, that in the course of the present year, if 6uoor 70a labourers were sent out, consenting to enter, upon their arrival in the colony, into indentures to this effect, there would be no practical difficulty in absorbing all of them under individual masters? — I think there would not. 1289. What is the cost of daily slave labour? — The slave labourer, who is employed as a labourer generally, receives about 20 rix dollars per month ; that in English would be 30^. 1290. When you say that, do you mean before the change in the value of rix dollars at the (.'ape, or the present value? — Before the change took place; but J ■ ■ I apprehend ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 147 I apprehend that they make no distinotioa between the rix dollars now and the rix dollars then. 1291. Has not a great change taken place in the value of rix dollars at the Cape, by the King's proclamation ? — Certainly, between this country and the Cape, but not in the interior of the colony itself. 1 393. By the law existing at the Cape, is a fresh supply of slaves legal ? — Certainly not. 1 293. The number cannot be increased ? — No. 1 394. And it has not been ?— No. 1395. Has it not been, to a certain extent, through the medium of African apprentices? — There have been some driven in by the native tribes into the colony. 1 296. Can the labour of free negroes be obtained at much less than the cost of 2«. 3 33'>. And the number of these African apprentices is not at any rate sufficient to iatei'fere with the labourers that go out from this country ?— Not at all ; such a cir- 1 Atance is casual. 37. Would not a large influx of European labourers lower the rate of wages, ^ .. jrally throughout the coldny, to the level of the wages of the indentured labourer? — Certainly it would have an immediate tendency to that efiect, and it would gradually lower them to that standard. 1338. Would not such a reduction diihinish the teifiptation of the indentured labourer to leave his master ? — Certainly. 1339. Upon what terms can uncultivated lands be obtained in the new Settlements near the Cape ?^Genera)ly the party goes to the Landrcst, the chief .nagistrate of the district, and he there makes a request for a particular piece of laud ; the hemrorden is ordered t«. inspect it, and if it does not interfere with.any private grant or public convenience, it is given to him ; the district surveyor is ordered to survey it, and he then gets his title from the government. 1340. Is the land wiiich is zo given him, free from 'the payment of any fees? — No, a quit-rent is generally charged upon it, according to circumstances and the capability of the place. -. 1341. Is that a discretionary quit-rent ?i — It is an annual. .<'^,(T*... 1342. Is the amount of it discretionary with the surveyor? — It is discretionary with the Government, according to the report received as to its capabilities. 1343. You mentioned some time ago having taken out some indentured servants who staid with you three years, and at the end of that time left you ; and you stated that during that time they were receiving one shilling a day ; were those persons at the end of three years in a condition to enter upon lands as capitalists, upon tlieir own account ?— They saved money, for they had nothing but their clothes to find. 1344. Do you know in point of fact what became of those person^?— I believe they left the district. One or two were mechanic^ ; they went to Graham's Town, upon the Government works. 1345. Is it within your knowledge that any of those persons settled on lands of their own, after leaving your service? — I believe not upc-n their own account i onft or two of them still remain upon my land, but net as servants; I allow them to remain 550. T 3 there ; D. P. Frmuu, E,,. 17 March, 1837. i.! t'^ 4 150 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE , P. Frmem, E*q. 17 Marcb, 1837. Thoma* Pringk, Esq. thd% ; they had collected a few cattle, which is generally the case amone the labouring kinds of people ; they collect a few cattle, and then they become small landboiiders «r landowners. ■ 1346. Do they pay you any rent? — No, nothing of that sort has been thought of 1347. You consider the cuiiiv'tion of the land by their remaining upon it an adequate return to you for allowing them to stay ? — Feeding the land, improves it; there are only one or two persons upon it 1348. Are yon not of opinion, that provided a system of supplying the Cape with labour were established on sound princij^les, that with respect to the manner in which such labour should t<; employed, and as to all the circimstances connected with the land and the cultivation of the country, it would be best left to the discretion of individuals ? — Certainly. 1 349. Had these persons, who now occupy a portion of your lands, built bouses at their own expense upon them ? — They built houses before I left ; I allowed them to build houses, sucii as are generally constructelt'by the settlers. 1350. If you wish to remove them, do you anticipate there would be any d ulty in doing it ? — No, I apprehend not. 13,51. Are you of opinion it would be desirable to hold out to an indentured servant, who may arrive at the colony under circumstances of emigration such as have been alluded to, that at the expiration of the period of bis seiv'ce, if he has conducted himself properly, he may have- a grant of land, upon vhith he may establbb himself? — Yes ; I am of opinion that if labourers go out upon the principle n'hich I have mentioned, according to their good conduct at the end of the contract, there should be some encouragement held out to them to become small farmers. 1359. Have the Dutch farmers been in the habit of employing English labourers?' — The English '"bourers have disappeared from the district of Albany generally ; many of them nave got into the employment of the Dutch colonists, some have become a part of the familj', as it were, living with them in the house ; a great many haVe been absorbed into the colony generally under those ciicum- stances. 1 353. Are there not large tracts of land now in the occupation of Dutch farmers which ar^ not cultivated ? — A vast quantity. tS54* What are the causes of that non-cultivation ? — The causes have probably been, that there has been little or no foreign m^rV-ii for their produce ; that thc| restriction on the importation of corn has been such, that there existed no induce- ment for them to grow it. , 1355. Has it arisen from that cause, or from the increase of cost in growing it, arising from the want of labour ? — It hab arisen i'vom both, for the Dutch farmer would never think of cultivating cnis land, of course, without he could get rid of his produce ; he knows pretty well what the extent of the market is, and he merely cultivates his land with a view of selling it in the intern^ market, and to raise sufficient for -his taxes ; but if there were a stimulus in any sort of way for him to grow corn, I apprehend the Dutch farmer would theq exeH himself, and cultivate his land properly. 1356. Where do yoi: think he could find a market for his corn? — At the Mauritius, St. Helena, and South America. 1357. What obstacle is th^re to the export of com to these places you mention ? — There has been a colonial law against it. 1358. Is it iu exutence now? — I believe not; I understand it is now repealed. 1359. In y^*"' calculation of 45/. per. family, did you include in it the necessity of coinplying with the provisions under the Passengers Act ? — Yes. t, 1360. Are you of opinion that that estimate could be reduced, if the Passengers Act were repealed ? — I think probably it might. 1361. In what degree? — :I have not turned my attention to it. I mentioned one circumstance, but I don't know if the Committee understood me to say, that ihe new settlement would exhaust a supply of 600 or 700 settlers annually. I meant th^ colony generally, independent of any colonists who may be sent out. , ^ .^ , ' ' ^* TTumas Prit^le, Esq. called in; and Examined. i/^ ,y,. ' 1369. HAVE you resided at the Cape 0' Good Hope?— I resided fk yeari in jthat colony, half of which period I spent on the eastern frontier. I363- Will you describe where you were settled ? — In that part of the dbtrict of praaffreioet now called Spnjerse^ ■ ■ ■'■•''■' '^'■'' -'"f^" 1364. Can ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa?. 151 1364. Can you give the Committee any information with respect to a.50 labourer* who were taken out by Mr. Benjamin Moodv to the Cape of Good Hope, in the vcars 1816 or 1817 ? — I beg to premise, that (entered the room without the slighest idea of being called upon to give evidence, bui as far as my information extends, I will willipgly furnish Jnfoimation. 1 know something of Mr. Moody's party, having seen various iAdividuals of them in difierent parts of the coU>ny ; I believe I speak correctly, when I say, that with a very few exceptions, tliey are now in a thriving situation. 1 365. But did they actually repay the rtoney advanced for their passage ? — I un* derstand they did, with a few exceptions ; and thbt those who ha][e not repaid are persons generally of improvident character, who have wasted their profits as quickly • as they made tliera. 1306. Did this 350 include women and children, pr not? — It included women and children, but I am not quite sure as to the exact number ; I know there were upwards of 200 souls ^Altogether, bat whether there were 250, or more, I cannot exactly say. 1367. Do you happen to know the detaib of the engagement made between Mr. Moody and these settlers i — Not very minutely ; I know that the sum of money taken by Mr. Moody for their passage out, and providing labour for them, was con- siderable, I believe not less than 60/. per family. 1 368. You know that in point of fact these people did repay a sum to that extent, and, notwithstanding such repayment, you think they are now generally in a thriving condition? — In point of fact, they h^ve generally paid off Mr. Moody's claims, and somie few individuals of them nq,w possess farms themselves. 1369. Have you had an opportunity of hearing the evidence given by the last witness? — Yes, excepting joine replies spoken in nuKt a low voice. 1370. Are you, disposed mainly to agree with hiui in the opinions be has stated; ur would you inform the Committee of any points upon which you would wish to qualify your assent as to such, opinion ?^— It is difficult for me, as I made no notes, to recall exactly what has been stated, but generally speaking, I would concur with the evidence of Mr. Francis ; there were however some points with which I did not quite agree. 1371. Do you concur with Mr. Francis in the opinion as to the real demand for labour which now exists at the colony? — I certainly concur with him in tlie opinion that there is a demand for labour in Albany, but whether it is to such an extent tliat 600 or 700 labourers would be absorbed annually, I would not ventilre decidedly to affirm. 1373. Are you of opinion that in the course of the present year that might be done ? — I diink 600 souls might be sent out, including men women and children, perhaps 700 ; but I would not think it safe to send a larger number till the experi- ment was tried, whether these w^ speedily absorbed. 1373. Are you of opinion that emigration, iu the course of the present y^r, to the extent of 200 men, 200 women, apd 600 children under 14 ysars of age, might be absorl)ed in the colony without difficulty ? — ^The number 91 children might create some difficulty ; such a large numbei* of children below the age of 8 on years could not be of advantage to the farmeis. 1374. Do you suppose that 200 men, 200 women, and 400 children above the . age of ten years, would be absorbed ? — Yes, if the children were above the age of ten, I think there would be a considerable demand for them. 1375. Do you concur with Mr. Francis in the opinion that in the Ivent of an emigration taking place to that extent, there would be no practicui difficulty in finding capitalists at the Cape, who would enter ' 152 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Tkmat PriMg'e, wsfres as those ; although I am afraid that there is at present a great want of capital E>q- in Albany. V ., ' 1377. I» it the custom in Albany to gi»e subsistence independent of wages?— 17 March, Generally subsistence is given along with wages ; the servant lives in a house adjoin- '''7' ing that of the master, and receives daily subsistence, exclusive of the money wages stipulated. 1 378. What is the amount of money wages in addition to subsistence which the master at the Cape could afford to give to indentured emigrants, and at the same time aftbrd to come into the terms suggMted by Mr. Francis, of paying 3/. a head per annum in liqy[|dation of the expense incurred by the passage ? — 1 feel a difficulty in decidedly answering that question, and can only refer to'their own opinion, when they say they could anord to give is/, a year, provided the labourer was sent out free to them. 1 3 79. Do you not imagine that a settler in \he Cape receiving 9 /. a year wages and subsistence, would better his condition inconceimbly as compared with his situation as a pauper in this country ? — Unquestionably. ; '^80. Would not that 9/. enable tJMl settler to clothe himself, and expend the rest, or ' lomize it, as he chose ? — Yes. 1 .' You ^liink, upon the communication already received from the colony of a dis( . and children r— I think there has. 1 384. You would recommend the emigrants to be selected for such an object should be purely agricultural r — If agricultural labourers bould be had, they would, without question, be preferable, but if purely agricultural labourers could not be had, I apprehend a certain portion from the manufacturing districts might be advan- tageously sent, though they would not be so valuable at first, inasmuch as they would require to be trained to farm labour. 1385. Are you -not of opinion that the effect of introducing this emigration on this system, would be to improve the condition of the Cape of Good Hope in its prosperity? — Very materially indeed; I am^ofopiiuon that the English settlement cannot go on prosperously, at least its welfare must be very materially checked, if there is not a number of labourers sent over to assist tlie farmers. 1386. Do you concur with Mr. Francis in thinkiiig that the probable effect would be, that the parties so indentured, when out of their indentures, would become independent persons or small occupiers of land, or shopkeepers? — Many of them would become shopkeepers; so long as there was encouragement for additional traffic in the district towns ; but I apprehend not very many would become small farmers ; I don't think that farming upon a very small scale is at present profitable in that colony. ^ 1387. It has been stated that the manner in which that is carried on at the Cape, is by persons first settling on other people's property ; do you think that sort of location would take place ? — Yes, to a certain extent ; I know of several disbanded soldiers, who having saved a little money, have collected by that means herds of cattle and sheep, which they pastured on other persons' property, until their stock increased sufficiently to enable them to commence farming on an independent footing ; they then applied to government for a grant of land, and some of these persons became very prosperous isettlers ultimately ; some of Mr. Moody's men, for example, have sudceeded in this manner. But I must beg to observe that, generally speaking, the process of the labourer rising to the rank of a farmer could hardly be expected to take place in five years; I should say it would generally require a much longer period^ and perhaps the majority would never accumulate sufficient funds to enable them to farm with advantage. 1388. If 200 men, 200 women, and 400 children, were to arrive at the Cape in the ON EMIGRATION FUOSl THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1817. 153 the case supposed, without Hxed indentures, do you suppose thnt tlic itcitlcrs theru would take them ofT of their own accord at the rates you have btutcd, or would tbey take advantage of the circumstance of the arrival of so many, and endeavour to make a lower bargain themselves? — I can hardly 8|)eak as to the dispoitition that might exist among the farmers to take advantage of such a circuniHtnnce ; I should think however that the safer plan would be to have them cither indentured in this country, or sent out upon some regular system, which would obviate any such difficulty. 1389. You would suggest that the indenture should be entered into in this country, with the parties who were to receive them ?— -I think i^'would be better foe both parties ; if you landed such a number entirely unprovided for, there would be a necessity for employing some person to look after their welfare, and prevent any undue advantage being taken of thenf by designing persons. 1 390. Supposing all the emigrants were to be sent to the Cape on this system, that they should be under blank indentures, which should be filled up with the name al the individual colonist who might rccein them, do you think there would be any impracticability found in absorbing this emigration r — No, I think not ; there might indeed be mconyeni^es or cifficulties experienced for ^ week or two, if they were landed at Algoa Bay, until the farmers could com6 down to engage them; for Algoa Bay, the nearest port where they could be landed, is above 100 miles from Graham's Town, and the centre of the English settlement. 1391. Do you concur with Mr. Francis, that it would be expedient as a system to establish a board and office at the Cape, which might communicate to this country the progressive demaiHi' for lBN)ur, so that the supply may be made in future years according {o the wants of the colonists? — Yes, I 'fully concur in that opinion ; I also thipk it would be highly advantageous if a Uoard were established in England, to communicate with any such office at the Ca|)e. 1393. You are, then, conclusively o( opinion that under such arrangements a system of Emigration could be progressivdy carried on between the mother country and thp Cape, under the circumstance of repayment for the expense in- curred in their removal ? — Yes. 1393. Have not most of the pi^sent farming proprietors stores, which they sell and retail? — ^No, I da not think that is common. 1394. Are you not of opinion that the greater part of the money wages under these indentures would be paid to the servant b^ the master in the shape of clothes and other comforts, ' lat they would receive little in money ? — I don't think it is common in Albany lor masters to pay their servants in that manner ; though I believe it hka been common to give them drafts upon the shopkeepers in the town, for goods in payment of wages. « '*■ 1395- Do you think thaL^ystem^would be confined to the indentured servants? >T-I think the mode of payment might be left to be arranged between the master and the servant; I woulil not have it rendered obligatory on tl Msrvant to receive goods in lieu of money. But there is so much competition be .n the storekeepers in Graham's Town, and the travelling hawkers, tliat the masters would not 6nd it advantageous to keep stores with that view. 1396. Are you a prpprietor in the Cape et present?— No, I have left the colony ; and have at present no intention of returning. 1397. Had you any indentured Krvant when you went there?— I did not go out with the intention of furming, therefore I took none ; but some'ttf my relations, and other individuals of my par^% did. • 1398. ..fad they any difficulty with the persons wbqpi they took as indentured '^ servants ? — There was one of them, rather an unsettled sort of person, who gave his master so much trouble, that he got the indenture cancelled by mutual consent and by legal authority; the others served out their time, and went ultimately to (^reside among the Dutch farmers. '% 1399. dfave you any means of knowing how many persons havq been going out unde't indentures, annually, of late years? — Very few, if any, I apprehend. 1400. Do you consider the sum of 60/. paid to Mr. Moody for each, family, more than a necessary sum? — I do not feel competent to answer that question, not being fully awafe of the circumstances under which Mr. Moody eng&ged and "carried out his party; I understand that he did go under disadvantages which must have greatly deducted from any profitft he bad anticipated from the specula- ' tion, which in his case was entirely a private one ; be bod to provide freight and Tkomai Pringli-, 17 March, 1837. V ii.i 550. u all 154 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jhoma.t Pringle, £t<| 17 March, 1817. i« U » n M I all other contingencies, which government, or even private individuals now, might probably procure at a lower rate. 1401. What sum Ho you consider would be sufficient, under ordinary circuin< stances, to carry out a family of five persons to the Cape ? — I have not made any calculation as to that point; but I observe the Commissioners of Inquiry in the colonv have reported it as their opinion, that from 15 /. to 16/. is sufficient to land on individual, or male adult, at Algoa Bay. 14U2. What should you consider the necessary expense for a family, estimating that it would cost 15/. for an adult male ? — I could not give any opinion upon that subject, without further consideration ; it has not hitherto come under my investi* gation at all ; but certainly whatever may be the present estimate of the expense of sending out a family, it might still be materially reduced l>y an alteration of the Passengers Act, which throws considerable impediments in the way of emigrants going out. 1403. Do you consider the difficulty of obtaining labour, the principal drawback to tiie cultivation of the Cape ? — I UiinLk is at present the principal drawback, so fiur as regards the district of Albany. 14U4. Is the bad state of the msrkets any drawback ? — Yes, occasionally. 1405. Do you see any reason to expect a change in respect to the state of the markets ? — Yes, I conceive so ; I think an erroneous policy has been pursued in the colony, in regard to the restrictions laid on exportation of corn ; it has been customary, whenever there has been any apprehension of a deficient harvest, to prohibit exportation altogether, consequently the farmer not expecting such re- strictions, or being uncertain whether or not they might be imposed, has been accus- tomed to raise only such quantity as he thought the home market would consume. 1406. What are the natural mar!t.\tt8 for the produce of the Cape? — Tkf Mauritius, St. Helena, and South America. 1 407. What quantity of grain will those markets take off? — I could not profess to give any correct informatron upon that point ; I believe there are Cape mer> chants in town, who would be able to give the Committee satisfactorji information. 1408. Is not wheat, in point of fact, exported from the Cape to the Mauritius? —Not recently, I believe, to any extent, in ^cons^uence of the deficient harvests at the Cape, and the consequent want of surplus, which, from the arbitrary restric* tions to which exportation has been subjected, is even in the best years seldom very considerable. ; 1409. Has not wheat been exported to South A^merica ? — Yes. 1410. What time of the year do you consider the most advantageous for sendii)g out labourers to the Cape, with a view of getting employment ? — I think it should be in the autumn ; that would probably be the best season. 1411. Do you mean that they should leave Qiis cougtry then ? — No, they 8houl4- land at the Cape in the South African autumn. 1412. When would you think it expedient they should be embarked? — Perhaps in December or January, so as to arrive in February or March, in order to give them sufficient time to hut themselves if necessary. I conceive it of importance that they should arrive there before or during seed-time; that is, from May to September. 1413. How lonf, do you estimate for the passage? — Three months, or from tea weeks to three months, is the usual average ; if you sent them direct to Algoa Bay, a week more slibuld perhaps be added to the esUmate ; I conceive it would be highly advantageous to send them direct to the eastern frontier, a great deal of' expense would be saved by that means, it would save 500 miles of coasting voyage, besides the expense arising from touching at Cape Town or Simon's Bay. % 1414. Is corn imported into the Cape, or has it in average years yielded a suf- ' ficient supply ? — My belief is that within these seven years it has been more fre- ' quently imported than exported. 1415. Whence does the supply proceed? — It has been occasionally receive^ from England, Van Diemen's Land, and I believe from America ; American flour has been imported, I know ; that however, I conceive, has arisen from the prevalence <>f blight in the colony. 1416. Then there is uncertainty attached to the wheat crop there ?■— Yes, at present, but blight to any great extent has only prevailed during the last seven years ; ! previously it had been unknown for 50 years. 1417. Have there been several consecutive years of failure of crop? — Yes, several years of partial failure. 1418. Do ON EMIGRATION FllOM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 155 1418. Do you thiok that is likely to lead to the introduction of another lort of grain at the Cape? — I think it is; and I should hope that the introduction of •Dother kind of wheat may get rid, ere long, of this vegetable distemper ; it docs not affect maize, nor barley to any extent. Pre^Hously to 1 820, barley bread was seldom or never eaten by the Dutch farmers, now it is occasionally used. 1419. Previous to these failures in these bad years, had corn been exported from the Cape to othei parts, for instance, to the Mauritius ? — Yes, and also to England, I believe, though rarely ; I see no reason to doubt that corn might be advantageously imported to England from the Cape, provided it could be done under the same regulations as from Canada ; without such encouragement, there may bo eventually some difficulty of finding a sufficient market for the corn grower. 1420. What is the present price of corn or wheat at the Cape ? — It is generally bold by the Cape measure of a muid, which consists of three Winchester bushels. 1431. How many rix (hillars did that sell for? — It has recently been sold so high as 20 rix dollars per muid or measure of 3 bushels. 1422. What is that, according to the (ifesent British curreacy i — That is 30s. per muid, or 10 j. per bushel. I would beg to observe, that the Cape is capable of producing many other articles besides corn, and though that may be the principal object of exportation from the eastern districts, it u not the only one ; there is at present Merino wool exported to a small extent, a valuable produce, which promises to succeed on the eastern frontier ; experiments have also been made in salting provisions for the Navy, and from the remarkably cheap prices of cattle, an abun* dance is capable of being supplied; there \t Hkewiae a considerable export of bides, tallow, and ot*^ r raw produce. I am informed by Mr. Thompson, a gentle- man who has just now published a work on the Cape, and who is a merchant in the colony, that he has perfectly succeeded in salting provisions for the Navy, and it is his opinion that this sort of export might be very considerably extended. The climate u moreover well fitted for the cmtivation of silk ; the mulberry thrives remarkably well throughout every part of the colony. The expense arising from the high wages of Itbour is the great drawback upon cultivation of all kinds, and on new experiments of any description ; but if that disadvantage can be remedied, the colony would be speetuly enabled, I am convinced, to odd many other exports to those it at present possesses. With regard to what I have mentioned as to the price of wheat, I perceive that my evidence has been mistaken ; I did not mean to assert that the price of wheat was usually so high as 20 rix dollars per muid in Cape Town or in any part of the colony, but in the latter part of 1 835 and the beginning of 1826, when I was in Albany, that was the current price there at the time ; the price of grain in Albany has been usually higher than at Cape Town, for, since the settlers arrived in 1820, there has been no redundancy, but on the contrary a scarcity b the eastva districts. 1423. Will you explain the manner in which si'Tplies of wheat from Albany are conveyed to the market of Cape Town? — There never has been, to my knowledge, any redundancy in that district since the settlers went out seven years ago ; 00 the contrary, wheat has been occasicoally, I may say frequently, exported from Cape Town, to supply the settlers and Uie troops on the frontier. Frederick Carlitk, Esq. called in ; and Examined. T4S4. HAVE you heard the evidence given by the preceding witnesses ? — ^Yes, I have. 1425. Are there any observations you have to offer to the Committee, as to your concurrence or dissent with respect to that evidence ? — ^There is something I should wish to say relative to the rate of wages which is stated to be given in Albany. I observe the rjvidence which has been this day given differs, in some respects, from the evidence given by me before the Committee on a previous occasion. With respect to wages which are given in Albany, it is quite impossible to form an av^age rate of wages, for, men are not paid in any general way, (such as) by the yea>- or b^ the day, but are engaged to perform certain pieces of work, n hich they do in iheir own time and in their own manner, and they are paid for such work, not by tht day but by the piece ; now I know that ^^e generality of them are in the habit of getting, in that manner, after the rate of 4 «. a day, and frequently 4 s. a day besides their provisions ; I can speak to this point myself, for I have paid it, and I have known many instances where others have also paid it. 1426. Do you mean to state, that the work a man upon task-work can ' 550« U 2 execute Tkomm Pringk, Ciq. 17 ftlareb, 18117. Fredtrieh Carlisle, Esq. f*-i ; V I I I- ^1 ■ d i i r ♦: 156 MFNUTES OF EVIDENCE IJEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Frtdtrick Carhtlt, cxecutc in Hic course of a duy, i)a8 produced to him a remuneration of 4*. in money, ^-'l- indc|)cndcnt of subsistence ? — Most undoubte«lly. ^ ' 1427. Do you mean the Committee to understand, that ^ou liavc Itnown cases 17 March, where a labourer in tiit- course of the year lias earned anjr thing like 300 times 4*., "»7 or that tlicse are occasional days work, of which there is no regular supply f— It is impossible to »ay ; the demand for labourers is so great, they do not confme themselves to work every day in the week, and as they are not engaged by the day or by the week, it is impossible to say if tiwy so apply themselves as to earn tliat every day in tlic year ; but that they do f^in that rate of wages from different persons, when they are employed about particular work, I am quite certain, for I have both paid it and known it paid. 1438, Is there any particular time of the year at which wages are higher than at other times ? — In harvest and in seed-time they may be rather higher, but, from the scarcity of labourers, all the employers cannot procure them at the same time ; there are not a sufficient number of labourers in the settlement for every employer to have them when he wishes, and consequently one person employs labourers at one time to do a particular piece of work, another at another time, when he can get them ; but certainly higher wages are given at particular times of the year, namely, in harvest and seed-time, when there is «ork to be done, which must be done under any circumstances. 1429. Could you state, with an^ thing approaching to precision, what a hard- working man, willing to engage himself as often as he could bo engaged, might earn in the course of a year ? — I have 110 hesitation in saying, that in the present circumstances of the settlement a hard-working man may find task-work etery day of the week, and cam 4s. a day all the year round, independent of any obstruction, such as ill health, or loss of time in changing his employers. 1430. Will you be good enough to explain to the Committee, how it appears the proposition you conveyed to this country, which only meant to pay people at the rate of 12/. a year, came to be so low, when considered with reference to this extraor- dinary real practical high rate of wages which you have described ? — Because the subscribers to the document! delivered engaged to take such a number of labourers as they conceived they could employ with profit at the wages they mentioned, but not otherwise ; no eu)ployer is in the habit of giving 4;. a day all the year round; he could not do it ; could he get a labourer at 1 a /. a year, he would employ him all the year, and five or six of them, or whatever number of them mi^ht be required. 1431. Do you concur in opinion with the two preceding witnesses, that if an emigration took place in the manner which has been detailed in the course of this examination, namely, 300 men, 200 women, and about 400 children above ten years old, that there would be no practical difficulty in absorbing such labour by the capitalists there taking the individual upon the indentures previously prepared in this country, at the rate of 9 /. a head money wages to each man, and so in pro- portion for the women arid children, they agreeing to pay 3/. in addition in repayment of the expense of the transport of such emigrants? — I think there should not be quite so me^y ; if they were sent out with a view to the continu- ance of the supply, but if they were to be sent out in one year, not with a view of continuing such emigration, that such a number would be absorbed there cannot be a doubt, and there would be a sufficient number of persons found to employ the labourers at the rate stated, for instance, 1 2 /. a year, or 9 /. a year, returning 3 /. annually ; but such plan contemplates the labourers being indentured for five years ; now the settlers from whom I come, generally speaking, object to their being indentured for'so many years as five ; they prefer them to be indented for three years. 1432. You are aware the colonist may have his choice, whether he will pay 5/. a year for three years, or 3/. a year for five years ? — That would too far reduce the rate to the labourer. 1433- It is necessary you should understand, that on the supposition of sending an emigration of 800 persons, future emigrations would be regulated by the real demands of the colony, to be ascertained through the medium of an office in the , colony to communicate with this country, ao that there would Ije no danger of unlimited Emigration, as it could always be governed by the real wants of the colonist? — I should conceive, then, that it would be much preferable to send a smaller number than 800. M34; Is the demand for labour almost exclusively for agricultural purposes ? — It is chiefly for agricultural purposes. 1435. Do you know any thing of the habits of the weavers in England and • , Scotland.' « V. \ ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 18J7. 157 'y. Scotland?— No, I cannot say that I am inucli acquainted with the habit* of that description of people. 143O. Would they be person* well calculated fur nwnial labouri - — I should rather think not, from what I do know of tltcn. 1437. You have a general knowledge, have you not, of tlie habiu of the weavers of Great Britain ? — I think I in<.y say thi* much, tliat if a person hu* been accustomed to sedentary habits all hi* life, h« cannot l)C well calculated fur the active life gf a field labourer. 1438. It i* all field labour that i* required, i* it not ?-~Chic(ly field labour. 1439. Is it not labour of a severe kind, requiring great muicular strength ? — Ye«, generally speaking; but there certainly arc employment* to which |)coplo of a different description might be put. 1440. But is that the principal source of a demand fur labour ? — No, it is not. 1441. Is the cultivation of the land profitable to the land'Owner? — Under the present rate of wages it is certainly not. 1443. Do you conceive there are no other drawbacks l>cloiiging to that country, except the rate of wages, that render the cultivation of the soil unprofitable? — There are natural drawbacks that we have in some instance* ex|)erienccd, but wc cannot consider they arc to last always ; the chief obstacle that at present pre- sents itself to the land being cultivated in the colony with profit, is the scarcity of labour. 1443. What are those other natural disadvantages, and how do you ex|)cct them to be overcome ? — The greatest that wo have met with is the blight that the crops hove been subject to. 1444. Does the present price of grain afford a sufficient return to the cultivator f —The present price affords a sufficient return, provided that labour could be obtained at a reasonable rate ; and when labour is obtained at a reasonable rate, if the same prices of produce remained which at present exist, certainly the produce might bo raised with great advantage. 1445. But if the effect of the increased quantity of labour was to give you a great increase of produce, where would you find a market for it? — That is a question which cannot, perhaps, be answered immediately; but the circumstance that Towing to the want of available labour; no surplus bos i/et been raised, may account for my not being prepared with any method in detail for the disposal of such surplus when produced ; but that markets may be found, I think there is no doubt, fur instance, the Isle of France, for butter, cheese, and a limited quantity of corn ; South America for corn, and England fur corn, wool, hides, &c. 1446. Would you wish to make any other statement to the Committee ? — I should merely wish tu make an observation respecting the apparent difference of opinion between the witness, Mr. Francis, and myself, on the subject of wages, which is, that the rate of wages as stated by me, relates solely to a particular portion of the colony, whereas that of Mr. Francis relates to the colony generally. Frtiiritk C.irlutf, 17 March, 1I17. Lieut. Thomas Charles White, called ia ; and Examined. 1447. HAVE you surveyed a considerable portion of the territory in the Cape of Good Hope, near the Algoa Bay, and can you s|)eak to the extent of land which is unoccupied and uncultivated there ? — I have surveyed the country between Algoa bay and the Sitsikamma river, to the extent of about 50 miles in-land. 1448. Is there, in point of fact, an extent of good land unoccupied, and not cultivated ? — There is a great deal in that tract of country at the foot of the hills, particularly near the Croome river, and from the Sitsikamma river, and it is unoc- cupied at present, at least it was at the time I made the survey ; it is a kind of land and country which the Dutch farmers set no value upon, there being too much moisture, the grass is too rank ; they give their attention almost exclusively to grazing; bu: it would answer the purpose of an English settler much better than any kind of soil to be found in the country, and to which they would give preference. 1449. ^^^'^ yo" ^^'^ *° opportunity of hearing the evidence which has been given by the preceding witnesses? — Yes. 1450. Are you disposed to concur generally with them as to the probability of the absorption of such a number of emigrants as has been mentioned? — Yes, in that respect I perfectly concur with them ; but in some res|)ect8 I differ with them, and with a great number of individuals ot the Cape, for whose judgment I have a great respect. It strikes me that the prospects of a man going out there may be much 550. U 3 better Lieut, C. White. ■':^* LmuL T. t. Hkut. . 17 Martk, I8f7. 158 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE iMttcr tiuui Ukmc of hi* employer. I ikm't aiiticipatfl wuch prufit to ttw iariiMr from the etiipluymcnt of labourcTN, l)Ut it strilcci iiiu that theru is no duubt in the ^ world that in a very abort time the laboorcr will fmA hiinii!ll in very eany circum- Rtuiices, ond in a condition to provide foo453« Would it be possible for the population to increase ia a more beneficial muniier tlinn in this progression, in going out as indentured labourers, and then becoming capitalists? — No, I think not, except ttiey were seat out with such assist- ance from Government as to enable them to l)eootne proprietors without passing through the state of farmers' labourers in the first instance; I conceive that nniigbt be accomplished without any great assistance from Government, but it would bo required to some extent ; provisions are extremely cheap ( beef in the interior does not exceed three farthings per pound, and in those years when the corn fails there arc a great many substitutes which arc not liable to blight, and which would answer them, if they arc located into a proper situation \ there is an abundant supply of provision and food. 1454. Have you had an opportunity of reading the Report of the Evidence taken last year before the Committee ? — I saw Mr. Carlisle's evidence, given before the Committee. ^ 1455. You did not read the Canadian Evidence, did you? — No. 1456. You have stated, that you consider the situation of a labourer going out, to be more advantageous than that of the person who employs bim ; will you state the grounds upon which yon give that opinion? — It appears to me that the demand would not be at all commensurate with the supply, should the number of capitalists be materially increased ; that the fanner's produce would be too great, ttiere would be no sale for it, unless a new market were opened for it } but the man who merely looks to a sufficiency for the maintenance of his own family would not be liable to the same disappointment as the fanner, wbo produces more than hf) requires him« self, with a view to sell ; one is free from the disappointment to which the other is exposed. 1457. But under these circumstances, upon what grounds do you found the opinion that there is an inducement for the further extension of the cultivutiun of tl)e soil ? — In my own case, I may state I urn going out there ; it is ny intention to occupy a grant of land made to roe, and in order to cultivate or to bring it to a certain degree of cultivation, it is indispensably necessary that I should have a few servants to assiat, setting aside for the present the probability of profit from their labours ; the land is of no use to me without labourers, it would not support my own family ; and from my own personal knowledge, there are many individuals in tile colony wbo arc similarly situated, and wbo require servants at the present moment ; but as to the number required I am not at alt prepared to say, but I know many instances personally where they are required. 1458. You look, then, to going there for the purpose of obtaining a mere existence, without selling such surplus produce as is to give you any of the luxuries of life? — It is more with a view to employment and amusement, and for the conveniencies of domestic life, that servants are required by the persons to whom I have alluded. I do not see myself how the fiirmer is to improve his circuoistances by the employ- ment of labourers beyond what J have mentiooed ; be is not permitted to export ' ■ny surplus produce. • 1459. If the supply of produce be redundant one year, will not tlte demand for labour fall off the next year ?— Yes, I think so, certainly. 1460. The tendency of the supply of produce, you say, is to become redundant, consequently the tendency of the demand for labour must be to decrease, must it not ?^ — Yes ; at present I may say there is no supply of labour ; it is necessary, to induce a few people of the labouring class, who are in tliat colony at present, to do any thing for the capitalist, to make them very tempting oflfers, absolutely to bribe them to do it. 1461. Are the Committee to understand you to say, that small as tlie supply of labour is, it is stHl redundant with regard to the' produce, and tlie produce is greater than the demand ? — Not at present ; a deaiand for labour exists at the pre- sent moment, but to what extent I am not prepared to say; I know it does exist. . Few ON EMiaHATION I'UOM THE UNITKI) KIN(il)()M ; iHi;. 15., Few capiulittit who went uut in 1811) have a tinitln ncrvaiit 011 tlnii tuiin at lliit moment; thoy tcrtuinly r('i|(iiio twu ur tlirii: ; IIm; cominon conveniciiccM und coiu* forte of life reriuiro that tlit- y thould huvo tliat nuiiik-r ul' peritoiit. I4tia. Do yuu consider that tlic ^riat teiii|itiitiun «vhi(h iIktu cvidLiitly u to exchange tlie condition of a lahourcr lor tU; coiidilion of u »iiiall tdrnior, ariits nut •o much from tiie increued prutiu, ai tlie desire of independent |KMM'»siun of pro- |)crty r — I thinic it is the desire of indc|)cndcnce ; the chuiate it mild, httle it re(|uired, few clotiieA are iieceMary, n houie is soon huilt, food in extremely cheup, to that there ii hardly occasion for exertion to obtain all these tliin);s. 1 463. Itut iMjyond the condition of n liitx)urin)( farmer cidlivatin^ his own soil, do you think it extremely ditlicult for a colonist to riser — I tiiink it is, under existing circumfttanccs. 14C4. You have licard the proposition which h;is been made to acme of th« preceding witnesses, with respect to sendinK out labourers to serve under indenture for a certain number of years ? — ^Yes. 14()5. Do you think that it would be worth while for 11 settler at the Cape to enter into teims for engaging u labourer for a number of ycarM, at amall wages, under indenture? — Yes. 14^6. Why do you think that would be worth while, if the domnnd for labour is so uncertain as you represent it to be in the case of settlers ut the C'a|)e ? — A greaf number of individuals arc desirous of having labourers sent out to them, not wi a view to profit, but domestic comfort. My opinion is, tlie colony is able to moiu tain a very large increase of a certain class of its population, the small farmer cul- tivating his own soil, not the capitalists, nor the men who set out as farmers of a superior order. I have no doubt that some labourers arc v ry much required tl ore, for the purposes I have mentioned. 1 467. Does your opinion coincide with that of the other witnesses, that in the course of the Autumn of this year, two hundred men, two hundicd women, and four hundred children above 10 years old, landed at the Ce\<<:, would be taken up by the colonists, on ttio principle of paying 9/. money wa^^s, and 3 ' a year r.' a repayment for the expense of the transport of each individual?— I think to th ^ extent they would find immediate employment. 1468. Have you any market for your surplus produce ? — Not that I am awai . oij under existing colonial regulations. I conceive n ^reat number of , sons in the colony would be glad to get labourers from England, even thoi ^u ',\ led to a diminution of their income ; I do not say this of persons who deri< .• thuir income from business as farmers, but of those who are in possession of incomes differently derived. 14G9. Do you know whether in average years the colony has grown enough food for its own support, or whether it is in the habit of importing ? — 1 think, with the exception of flour occasionally, nothing is imported into tiie colony in the shape of provisions ; there is an abundance of animal food constat: dy to be had, and those vegetables which are not liable to be affected by blight (which has been the case with corn lately,) supply abundant provisions for the inhabitants ; there ai'e potatoes, and a species of bean, and the pumpkin, and a variety of vegetables, crops of which are quite certain, provided a proper situation is chosen for them. 1470. Is there a great want of artificers in this new settled country ? — No, I think not, the supply in l8ig was very great, I think quite equal to the wants of the colony. 1471. It is principally the mere day-labourer, then, i.\t is wanted? — Yes; for, notwithstanding I have a different opinion from titt;.'; gentlemen who state the necessity of additional labour with a view to profit by the farmer, I am convinced the colony is able to support a very great increase to its present population ; and the idea that they are not so immediately requir .i by the farmei-, whose sole object is profit, is founded on this, that he is obliged to sell his produce at a very low rate indeed in favourable seasons. W'ler. I went there in 1819, wheat could be purchased in the vicinity of Cape Town for 3^. per bushel, and that was not an abundant year. Henry Ellis, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 1472. WILL you have the goodness to state to the Committee, your opinion as to the opening prospects of the Cape of Good Hoiie, under the circumstance of an annual supply of labour in proportion to the demand ? — I have no question that the Cape can absorb an annual supply of labour, provided that supply be pro- 550. ' ,, ;• U 4 portionate 17 March, mi;- 1 t Henri/ Ellii, |TI i6o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE tfcwy Ellis, 17 March, 1887. portionate to the demand of the colony, and I add, a demand actually exists in the colony for that labour. 1473. Are you not of opinion that one of the consequences of such a regulated supply will be to increase natural productions at the Cape, for which a market will ultimately be found ?— 1 have no doubt of it, inasmuch as certainly there never has yet been an adequate supply of labour in the Cape, nor have the capabilities of the colony at all been brought forth in consequence. 1474. Do you not consider that the main impediment to the developement of the resources of the colony is constituted by the deficiency of the supply of labour? .—Inasmuch as where there is a quantity of land capable of cultivation, and capable of various productions, and that that land has not been cultivated from want of labour, I conceive there can be no doubt that the colony is susceptible of very considerable improvement. 1475. How many years were you resident there?— Only two years; not quite two. 1 476. Will you have the goodness to instance that by the Ctpe itself ? — I give as an instance, Cape Town ; if it were merely to be retained as a military and naval port, there would be no reason why more corn or provisions of any kind should be grown than was sufficient to supply the garrison and the crews of the ships happening to touch there ; in point of fact, the cultivation has gone much beyond that ; this has arisen from the increasing population. The vine has been grown there ; that would never have been grown, if it had not been for the increase of population, and labour being directed to such productions as the soil was ca- pable of bearing. If it had been merely looked to in a military or naval point of view, no district would have been cultivated now but the Cape district. 1477. ^^^ you prepared, as you have always kept up an intercourse and acquaintance with the Cape, to concur in the opinion given by the witnesses this day, as to the probability of an influx of emigrants being absorbed in the manner suggested by this Committee ? — I can have no doubt of it; for, under every disad- vantage, three or four thousand persons have been already absorbed since 1 830. 1478. Do you not consider that, admitting the emigration were to take place this year, it might take place in future years on the principle suggested in the course of examination, the annual demand on the part of the colony being made known through the medium of a correspondence between the Cape and this country, so that only so much labour might be sent ouc as would meet the de- mand ? — The details of any measure of that kind present considerable difficulty, and they vary with the circumstances of each colony. I am not prepared to say that perhaps the persons now resident in the Albany district are the best persons with whom you would negociate for the supply of labour, but I have no doubt that persons employing their capital at the rate which has been proposed, that is, of paying 9/. to the labourer, and 3/. to Government, would inevitably find it answer. In truth, when it is considered there has been an unfortunate visitation of providence, in the blight of the corn for three successive years in a new district, it is not fair to argue from an accident, that such must be the case in the colony generally ; I am quite convinced that if it had not been for th^. accidental blight, which was the principal disappointment, and some other collateral circumstances (I allude to certain measures of the colonial government, and to the change in regard to the township of Bathurst) the numl^r of settlers sent out in 1 820 and >i 8j 1 would now have constituted a well-conditioned, comfortable population in the district of Albany. 1479. -^>'<^ y°^ not of opinion that the principle of an emigration of labourers, who may ultimately be converted into small capitalists, is a sounder principle of emigration than encouraging artificially the emigration of capitalists ? — If I under- stand tliu princi[)le, I take it an emigration of capitalists would bring with it labour, for any capitalist applying his mind soundly to the subject, would find he could do nothing with mere money unless he got labour, and therefore an emigra- tion of capitalists would in itself be an emigration of labour. , 1480. Do you not think it aggravates the difficulty of emigration, if at the same time the capitalist and the labourer go out together ; or is it not more natural that the capitalists should go where they choose, and then the supply of labour should be given afterwards? — As I understand the purpose of the Emigration con- templated, it is to rid tliis country of a redundant population ; that is the principal object. I do not think that any capitalist in this country, looking to the rest of the world, would select the Cape as the place upon which he would employ hb capital, for undoubtedly the profitable return from the Cape is not so certain as it is ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 161 is in Canada and New South Wales ; but I hap[)en to conceive it to be more cer- tain than others do. But if I am asked with a view to the emigration of persons whose labour is not wanted liere, wliether their labour is not wnnted at tlie Cape, and will not be paid for, I should say in the affirmative, it is wanted, and will be paid for. 1481. Do you mean as unproductive labour, or as productive labour? — I consider that if labour in this country is so redundant that the individual is not employed, he is unproductive in this country, and must be maintained from the labour of those who are employed and are productive ; so that if the labourer or unemployed pauper in this country, who cannot be called productive, becomes an emigrant to the Cape, and produces his own maintenance, I hold him to be a productive labourer, as compared with the unproductive pauper in this country. 1482. Having heard the evidence of the last witness, who asserted that there would be a great demand for menial servants, meaning labourers for the house- hold, which would be unproductive labour, and such as produced nothing from the land, will you have the goodness to state if in your opinion the emigrant would be employed as a productive labourer at the Cape ? — I must take the liberty to suggest, that I would correct the last witness ; for in a country where you send a number of people to land that has nothing growing upon it, the menial ser- vants you want are persons who will help you to grow something. Among the settlers who went out to the Cape, there were some who took out a sr^all capital ; while that capital lasted, they wanted food and servants, and food and servants were found them. Those who did not set to work as persons in a new country ought, soon got to the end of their capital, and there was an end to their means of purchasing food and hiring servants ; and what is much to be regretted, if they had not had the means of coming to this country, they must have remained paupers or labourers there. 1483. If you have no sale for your surplus produce, what interest would you have to grow any thing more than you yourself consumed ? — If I were to admit the first part of that question, that there was no sale, it would be a different matter ; but the fact is, that hitherto the population of the colony has been so spare and inadequate to the extent of the soil, that it is quite out of the question to say what would be the exports of the colony. 1484. What are they? — The exports are various; among them corn, when the colony is not visited by the blight. The year before I arrived at the Cape had been a bad year : we were obliged to send to India and other places for a supply of corn ; but before it arrived, the prospect of next year was such, that actually in that year there was a considerable exportation of wheat from the Cape to the Mauritius and to South America. It is>in the knowledge of the Committee, that two years ago, when various schemes were going forward, and every one was contemplating the formation of companies, the Cape was selected as a place sus- ceptible of agricultural speculation to a certain amount, in the same manner as Australia ; I was not surprised that the scheme did nut go forward, for His Majesty's government were so tenacious of the productive acres at the Cape, they would not grant them, except under severe conditions ; they attached so much value to these acres, that a million of them at the Cape was thought a most monstrous demand, 500,000 would not be given, 200,000 were quibbled about. But it was the opinion of capitalists, that the scheme would have taken precisely the same character as the Australian Company has. If it had been supposed that there would be no export, certainly the capitalists never could have contemplated employing them- selves upon what was not to yield an export, as in no other shape could they have got a return for their capital. I have mentioned this project, because it shows that all persons do not entertain the opinion that there can be no export from the Cape. To that proposition was subscribed the names of those persons who had had the best means of estimating the value of land at the Cape. 1485. Has not the tendency to export, even under the high prices at the Cape, been such, that Government has been obliged to prohibit exportation r — Certainly ; it was, in* my opinion, a xery mistaken policy on the part of Government, and a policy which, when in office there, I very much contested, for if upon a notion of scarcity you are to prohibit export, it is quite conclusWe, that the prohibition of export will be the prohibition of cultivation. i486. It has been stated, the price of wheat at Cape Town is in British money and in British measure, 80 ». per quarter ; is that so ? — I don't recollect any such price ; perhaps some other gentlemen do, who are mure conversant with the sub- 550. X ject ; WcMry Ellii, Esq. 17 March, 1897. ■;f' 11 1?": '! ■ ! i !| Utnn EMU, E*q. 17 March, 1897. 162 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE HEFOUE SELECT COMMITTEE ject ; but about ten rix dollars the muid was considered as a remunerating price durin>; my stay in the colony. 1487. How is that price of wheat at Cdpe Town consistent with the assertidn, that there is a redundance of supply in Albany? — I cannot conceive how that can be, where there are no markets regularly established. Supposing a market not to be regularly established, and one individual to have been particularly suc- cessful in his crop, and to have a redundancy, as far as the consumption of his own family went, if there were no market established in the district to which ho could send his reduifilant corn, he would be in the case of a person having too much corn ; yet there would not be a general redundancy. It is the absence of a local market in a new settlement I am speaking of. In a new settlement, a man who has a garden will not be able, immediately, to find a market for his surplus vegetables, there is nobody near him to buy them, and the vegetables must be left to rot in the ground. It is impossible, in the first formation of a settlement, for markets and every thin^ to be established at once ; therefore any redundancy of supply which may be alleged to have existed in Albany, must have been an accidental or insulated redundancy. 1488. Would not the progressive increase of the population tend more to correct that consequence than any other circumstance ? — Undoubtedly ; for an increase of population is generally followed by regular markets, and every man knows where to send the redundancy of what he grows, and to find a purchaser ; but it is impos- sible for a man digging in his garden, in which he tnight have cultivated produce, to leave his garden and cattle, and a wife and family, with his basket in his hand, as he might in a street in London, and say, Who will buy my surplus carrots and vegetables ; he is obliged to leave them perishing on the ground. 1489. You have stated, that if there were an additional supply of labour to the Cape, various productions might be raised in the colony ; will you have the good- ness to state what those productions are, besides grain ? — These will be determined by the nature of the soil and climate. I do not profess myself to be either an agriculturist or a botanist, or a scientific person, but I have understood that every production of the temperate zone, and many of the tropical regions, can be grown at the Cape. 1490. In looking to an export market from the Cape, what are the countries to which you direct your attention? — Why, to the Isle of France, which is nearest, and to South America, and I think to India. I should also look to the fisheries, to supply the markets for salt fish, which exist in different parts of Europe and else- where ; on the eastern coast of the Cape of Good Hope there is a species offish in great quantities, nearly resembling the cod, which is capable of being salted ; there would be salt fish, whale oil, wool, hides, corn, wine, dried fruit, and pretty much those productions that belong to the Mediterranean. 1491. What are the articles which you would propose at present to carry from the Cape to the Mauritius and the Isle of France, which are the markets for corn? — It certainly cannot be a very considerable market, for the population of the Isle of France is not great ; but I have kno\rn merchants at the Cape send corn advan- tageously to the Mauritius and to the Brazils. 1492. Is not the vine susceptible of great improvement ?■ — Undoubtedly it is; and as yet, whether it be in agriculture, or whether it be with respect to the vine, every thing in the Cape has marked the want of capital, the want of knowledge, and the want of labour. But I beg leave to modify my opinion, by saying that I do not I'oi an instant compare the capabilities of the Cape, for the absorption of popu- lation, with Canada ; I only go to the extent of saying, that it is capable of a certain absorption of population, not the least in proportion to its apparent geographical extent, but in proportion to those parts of it which are capable of arable cultivation ; there is a gnat deal of land not capable, from the aridity of the soil, of being useful for any thing but pasturage ; and it remains to be tried, whether it will grow any grass but the indigenous grass of the colony ; no experiment has been made by introducing different sorts of grass, so that I cannot say what is its capability iot pasturage. 1493. How long did you reside there? — Two years. I may say with respect to Albany, I went up there, and my duty was to locate the settlers, to place them ia the grounds allotted to them, when the Emigration took place in 1820. I saw that part of the country ; my evidence must therefore be taken as the evidence of a person who applied his mind, while at the spot, for a year and a half, but whose personal knowledge of the details cannot be great 1494- Has Has ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 163 ' 1494. Has not the Dutch part of the colony been settled under disadvantageous drcunistances ? — It was settled in reference entirely to the advantage of individuals applying for grants of land, and without any reference to the capability of the colony lor maintaining the population. 1495. Were not settlers permitted to make choice of spots very much where they liked, with reference to water and so on, without general reference to one situation or another? — Clearly so, in the early part of the settlement. 1496. And by that means, was not an intermediate space left unsettled? — Yes. 1497. How many labourers would he immediately absorbed this season, without injury to the colony ? — I should say, that this season, considering the vicissitudes of the crops that have lately occurred at the Cape, and the general discouragement produced there, it would not be safe to make the esperinient beyond lou families, at the most. 1498. Is it of material consequence that there should be a number of children, or as few as possible? — In a new country the fewer helpless people you have, the better; and if you take a child, it is not right to calculate he can make any return under 10 years of age; you must have some; there would be little risk of health ; the return of deaths of the colonists in the new settlement, from the Emigration of 1820 and 18:21, I should suppose has not exceeded the average mortality of places in any part of the world ; I do not know that it has exceeded the average in the rest of the colony. 1499. Do you consider the climate as prejudicial to children ? — Quite the con- trary; it is impossible for any climate to be more favourable to the human consti- tution than the Capo of Good Hope. 1500. What is the ordinary drink of labourers at the Cape ? — Wine, generally. 1501. Are you of opinion that there would be nu danger in sending to the Cape this year a well assorted emigration, consisting of 1 00 men, 1 00 women, and 300 children ? — I think not, on the principles which I know are contemplated by this Committee. 1502. Do you concur with the opinions given in the course of the examination to-day, that for the future a system may be adopted, by which the real demand of the colony may be regularly supplied? — I have no doubt it may, and the result will be, the ii^oreased cultivation of the colony, and with that, the increased pros- perity of its inhabitants. 1503. And a progressive increased demand for labour? — I should think so, as a necessary consequence ; I think increased prosperity involves a progressive demand for labour. 1504. When you say you have no doubt this emigration may be absorbed, do you mean to convey an idea, that the money laid out in sending them, would be gradually repaid by their employers by instalments, under the system of inden- tures? — I should think every part of the repayment would be made. Applying myself to the Cape, of which I know more ihan of other colonies, I think the period should be extended as long as possible ; if the persons who engaged with them, and took them under those indentures, were persons of industrious babits tliemselves, and lived as men in a new country ought to do, that is, with the necessaries and few of the luxuries of life, I have no question but that it would be repaid in the course of five or seven years, that is, 3/. a year, paying so much less to the wages. The ground of it is this : I take the price of slave labour in the Cape ; a ploughman would get from 15 to 20 rix dollars per month ; at the time I was there it was 20 dollars, about a/.; 15 rix dollars would be 303,; he was fed besides, and he was clpthed partially ; they are not persons who n ork very hard ; free labour, at the rate of 12/. a year, would be considerably less; my calculation for the slave was 18/. a year, besides his food and some clothes ; if it answered the purpose of the people to give 18/. a year with food and some clothes to a slave, I cannot conceive it should not answer giving 12/. to a free labourer. 1505. The question is, whether from your knowledge of the Cape, under the circumstances which have been supposed to-day, you could undertake to recommend the incurring of preliminary expense, with .the probability of ultimate repayment by instalments ' — ^The way in which I would answer it would be this ; if I were engaged in a company, I very much doubt if I should make my experiment at first with 100 families, I should be inclined to make the experiment with 50 famiiies ; but when I consider that this is a great national measure, I have no hesitation in saying, that too families might be safely sent out there ; for I conceive you have the great object in view of getting rid of unemployed persons here, and it is not a simple debtor and creditor account. 550' X 2 1506. Now /fififry £Vw( 17 March, 1817. ■r i. Henry Ellis, £(q. 17 March, 1897. L* 111- '' * t 164 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 1506. Now, without looking to repayment at all, would not that population so sent out, be more easily absorded ? — Uncjuestionably ; I believe if there were no repayment at all, the population would bc'better there than here. 1507. If therefore no repayment is looked for by the parties ^oing out, or the persons who took them there, will not a larger number of population be absorbed ? — I have mentioned luo famiiies, and I certainly would not, under the actual circumstances of the colony, go beyond 100 families; and if it were not a national measure, I would say a smaller number would be a safer experiment. 1508. Would you say that you think this Committee might be recommended to encourage Government to send out emigrants to that amount ? — I would say the Committee might safely recommend to Government to send 1 00 families out. 1 509. In the new s ;;ttlements of the Cape, is the intercourse carried on entirely by barter, or is there any currency in circulation ? — As the new settlement forms part of an old established colony, the currency in the colony has necessarily found its way more or less into that new settlement, for there was a certain sum of money deposited by the settlers who went out in 1820-21, and these deposits, repayable upon the spot, in tl.i new settlement, put them in ample possession of colonial currency. i 1,510. Is there th< 1 a ct-rtain amount of currency in circulation? — Yes. 1511. Was the iHl. ' nich you calculated to be paid to the slave, in money or provisions ? — I was aking a case ; I was supposing a man with a farm, who wanted to hire a farm servant, and not owning a slave hitnself, to go to a person having a slave, he would give that in money to the person who supplied him ; but I was applying myself to the old established districts of the colony, where there existed that slave population. . • . • . . i Mr. IF. S. NorMouie. 40 March, l8»7. Mortis, 20" die Martii, 1827- Mr. fVilliam Spencer Northhouse, being again called, delivered in the following Paper, which was read. ,. " Honourable Sir, " London, 19th March 1837. " WE beg, through your medium, to lay before the Honourable Committse on Emigration, a few Extracts from letters written by Settlers in Uiper Canada to their frl^ads, at various periods ; we believe the persons writing are t.11 known to Captain Marshall, to whom we would refer you. These extracts prove, to a moral certainty, that capital invested in the proposed undertaking is secure of a return. " Grateful for the attention already paid to our requests, we are loth to press for a premature decision ; but— the feverish anxiety under which the petitioners are suffering, the prospect of the season passing away, when preparations should be making to facilitate embarkation; the accounts we daily receive, of the continued distress of many, and the anticipated destruction of most ; the certainty, that in two short months a crisis will arrive, when the petitioners will be rendered incapable of availing themselves of any future grant, and whatever is determined upon this Spring must either rescue them from misery or plunge them into absolute despair renders this suspence almost intolerable, and induces us to beseech the Committee to bring its proceedings, in our case, to a speedy conclusion. " We are, Honourable Sir, " Your obedient humble Servants, " Tohn Tail. , •' The Hon. R. J. W. Horton, " James IVilson. Sec. Sic. &c." " fF. S. Northhouse." i< EXTRACTS: From Andrew Angus, to his Parents. " Lanark Township, 24 Lot, lo Concession, 12 January 1822. " - - - For my part I like the country very well ; and I think any one who has a mind to work pretty hard for two years, may look forward to something like independence, as we can perceive by those who came here three years ago. Mr. Gemmil nor I ever had an hour's sickness. The summer is a great deal warmer than with you, but not intolerable ; the winter is very cold, particularly at night and morning, but from ten until four afternoon wc can work with coat and vests off at chopping down trees, which is very pleasant work. - - • * . This This. ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 165 This country produces excellent potatoet), Indian corn, wheat, and in tact almost every thing a family needs, besides a nutnber of luxuries. Wo arc worse off for olothes, until we be able to raise sheep and lint ; both thrive well here ; indeed the ~ wool is said to be equal to the Merino. - - - The larger a family is that conies out here, has the mo^ '. advantage of doing well ; there are some that came out in 1 830, with six children, and witiiout a farthin>! but government allowance, bought two cows, and maintained themselves on their land until they raised crop sufficient. - - - If trade is no better In Glasgow, you could not do better than come out : if the country was not in the highest degree healthy, I would not advise you to come out. - - -" June 2d, 1 824. "... I wish you had come out here at the time I came, as by this time you would have been out the reach of dull trade and high markets, except as a seller. There were none about us but what had a good deal to dispose of; for my own part, last year I raised as much provision as would have done me for two years ; we had a good ready market for our flour at the mill we get it ground rt (about fifteen miles from where we live) erected by Captain Robertson for the use of the emigrants he brought out. [Having been badly vith the ftver and ague, he proceeds.^ However, my work did not fnll behind, there was an acre and a half which I had not got cut down, notice was given me there were some coming to chop it out on such a day, which they did ; then I had no more to do than to send word I wanted it piled up for burning, when about thirty men turned out and logged off about three acres in one day ; others came in and put in my crop ; in fact, I am further forward with my work than any of my neighbours, which is always the case when one has trouble ; the neighbours will turn out from six to eight miles to forward their work ; but sickness is very scarce in this settlement. I wish you would all come out if you could ; I could not advise you with so much confidence before, but I see now that any family coming out, and able to support themselves until they raise the first crop, have always plenty of provisions aftt wards." April 18, 1825. " This place has been settled little more than three years, and some that left Scotland with nothing, have now from 1 2 to 1 8 head of cattle, besides sheep and hogs. This township grows a great deal of wheat and Indian corn of the best quality ; my own crops have always turned out remarkably well ; this year I had as much flour as would have done me three years, besides a great deal of other grain. I planted five quarts of Indian corn, the produce of which was 50 bushels, and that is not thought a great crop ; from seven bushels of pota- toes I had 240 bushels. To ^ive you some idea how this township has come on; we have an annual meetmg, where we choose our office-bearers; I was appointed assessor, I had to go to every house to take an account of clear land, number of inhabitants and cattle; there are 1560 people, 95 oxen about four years old, 1 80 under four and above two years old, 338 milk c^ws, and more than 1000 under two years old. The taxes, which all go for school and bridges, arc trifling, ^d. evei7 milk cow, 4i\\. utid the f;overnor, Colonel Marfiidil, is a very fine gentleman. Thoe is iso incoi. v . c ienrr> rom summer's heat or wir>:er's cold, I can work in winter wiili m;, c(vU off Uirough- out the day. Be sure to embrace the first opportunity of coinin;^ iwif ." From Ju7nes Dobbie, to W- Falhir and Friuils, " Lanark, U H. 24 April 1 826. " • - • I and my family nrf still taknif, well with this couniry ; and I really do bless God every day I rise, thot He was cvi j ;>iea8ed in the course of His piovidence to send n:e and my family \na ones. I h.ive gut up a very handscme ntw house, with the assist- ance 0: iiixcrn ;: .titig n^cn ; it was raised in one day; it is 34 feet in length, and 15 in bicu !*i.'. Cd. Maisimli will be in Glasgow ; call upon him, and he will give you his ophi.".i of thia place." Jime \tf>. ii'26. To !ii» Cousin.—" Would to God, n»y dear friend, that you and aii n>y f: iiiv.ts were here with us ; by labouring on the Innd, you would be indepen- dent of trade, and, with the blessing of God, you would ulways have plenty to eat and drink, ^^hich, with health, makes life a pleasure. \V have always had plenty since w'e cume here, for ourselves, and have still sold more or less every year. Our superinieniient, Col. Marshall, is going home, it is said, to bring out emigrants to be settled in two townships in Lower Canada; now you shoild do all you can to try and get out, let nothing hinder you if possible. All this settlement is striving to do well ; were you here, and seeing the improvements that are going on amongst us, you would not believe titat we were once Glasgow weaeers" ■'■ ■ ' ' Peter Monro, to John M'Lachlan. ' " Dalhousie, 6 May 1 824. " .... If it had been so ordered that you had come here when I came, you would, by being industrious, have had plenty to eat of the best flour, Indian corn, and potatoes, and to drink of the I est milk, maple sap, molasses and honey. Last harvest, I laid in 140 bushels of potatoes, besides grain of all sorts. Vou may depend upon it we had a number of difficulties, but now they are almost over ; yet we may still expect to meet with losses and crosses. Last January, I lost one of my large oxen, yet Providence has always been kind to me ; the first two calves I had were oxen, they are now three years old, and are able to do the most of my work. I have got a large house built, veo feet by 30, and a barn 20 feet by 40." 27th November 1826. To the same. — " We hear there will be an extensive immi- gration next Spring ; I would seriously advise you, as a friend, to enrol your name and family among them as early as possible ; and, for your encouragement, I will tell you, upon my arrival at Greenock from Paisley, depending on a certain friend for the supply of a few pounds to pay my passage, I was disappointed; but there were a few more in the same predicament; we were, in all, 27/. short, but raised the sum by subscription. We then got orders to put our luggage aboard. John, I never was happier in my life than with that order; and now, have I not reason? - - -" Robert ON EMIGRATIEN FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM . 1827. 167 Robert Fleming, to h Friend. *• Lanark (U. C.) a4tl> April i8j:,. " . - • I AM still making it better. I have about ci){ltt ncro of land bearing clOp, and two more making ready. I have two cows ({ivin^ milk, a yoke of oxvn, u two-year old steer, and a young bull ; we keep pigs, wliicli yield us plenty of pui k. I had as much wheat last year as woul'i keep my family for two years; what I. did not need I sold, and bought clothes w'.th to my tamily. • - . . " . .. I . . ; ,, . William Anderion, to his Mother. . ' " Uamsay Township, itiili July i8a5. " - - You are very anxious to be with me, but I doul)t you would not be able to stand the fatigue uf the passage. If you were hero, 7 could keep you pretty com- fortable. I have been exceeding fortunate in getting good land and good cro|)8. I have plenty of provisions to live upon, and a little to spare. I Imvc built a new house in the centre of my lot, on a rising ground, and were my ground cleared I could see from the house the four corners of my lot. Crops look well this season. The clearing of the land is nothing to me ; all is, how to plant und reap. I iiave two milk-cows and a young one rising two year old, two spring calves, and a yoke of oxen, which make seven head of cattle ; and wc have seven hogs. 1 have got 18 acres all under crop with grain and hay. - - - " In addition to and corroborating the above accounts, there are letters from William AUun, Hugh Wallace, William Ilav, Robert Park, in the township of Dalhousie; James Leitch, Ramsay James Smith, in North Sherbrook; and a number of others, written to their iriends in Glasgow and neighbourhood. Almost all of them were bred to manufactures, particularly weaving, and wc>U out with th^ assistance of Government during the years 1 820 and 1 82 i . - William Bowman Felton, Esq. again called in ; and Examined. . 1512. AN Estimate has been given in to the Committee, according to which the expense for food for an emigrant family of five persons, at the Cupc of Good Hope, is calculated at 7/. \os., being only for six months ; by comparing thi . with the Canada Estimate already printed, it is perceived that the Canada estimate extends to sixteen months, and that the ex()ense is calculated at 28/. ; will you state to the Committee the reasons for this difference, or rather the necessity for that prolonged duration of rations at the Canadas? — I' must be first observed that the Canada estimate is founded on an experience on a very extended scale, and it has been discovered that the promise of a smaller supply of provisions than twelve months would be illusory, the greater part of the first twelve months would be lost before a settler could prepare his land for a crop, in consequence of the necessity of removing the timber before the land is ready to receive the seed ; and that being the case, no return can be depended upon until the end of the next harvest; therefore assuming that the settler arrives in the Canadas in the middle of summer, and leaving Great Britain on the 1st of April, he cannot well reach Upper Canada before the month of May is consumed, it will occupy the remainder of the summer to prepare the ground for a crop to be put in the succeeding spring ; if the settlers are dispatched from Europe in the course of the summer, it will be the month of August, or early in September, before they will orrive in the colony, und then the two months open weather before the winter sets in is burely sufficient for them to build their huts to shelter them from the inclemency of the weather, and to prepare the ground for the succeeding spring's cropping ; now under the latter circumstances which are thus contemplated by the Committee, it will be most assuredly twelve months before any return can be received from the labours of the settlers. The Committee distinctly understand that there are no lands whatever in the British colonies denuded ofwoud; the only districts in the North American hemisphere clear of wood, are at present too remote to furnish a place of location for our emigrant population. 1513. Are there no tracts of land, such as the Americans call Prairies ?— None in the Caniidos ; the Prairies are confined to the northern bank of the river Oliio, and are not the most profitably cultivated lands after all. 1514. You think, therefore, that any estimate would be fallacious, which did not take into cimsideration the maintenance of the settlers for a (wriod of a year, and 550. X 4 possibly W.S. Mr. ViirtkhuuM, '10 March, I Si;. tf. B. Felton, Esq. .Ik '< •* 1 It ( ^1 ih 90 Muichi 1837. 168 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE W. B. Fflion, possibly for a period of fifteen or sixteen months ?— To attempt to carry on a settle- *^^ J ment on a large scale, without ensuring the settlers provision for twelve months at "^ least, would assuredly be attended with disappointment. In respect of the ditfer- ence in the expense of provision mentioned in the two estimates, it is to be observed, that accordinf^ to the calculations of the gentleman from the Cape of Good Hope, beef, which is the basis of the diet proposed for the settlers, is almost valueless, whereas provision of all descriptions in the Canadas usually sells for a price relative to the producing it ; that is an advantage which ultimately tho settlers will profit greatly by. The second or third series of settlers arrive in March, and contribute to enable the first established settlers to pay a large proportion of the sum advanced to their maintenance, by their purchasing of them their pro- ductions; hut if provisions remain at the present price at the Cape, I do not see any pro^pect of their selling their surplus to advantage. I am so convinced of the certainty of agricultural produce obtaining a remunerating price in the Canadast that upon that I ground my project for the repayment for the provisions which shall be advanced to the setders, conceiving that if the Government receives in kind the provisions it lends to the settlers, they will always be enabled to convert them into money, if they arc not disposed to distribute them among the new coming settlers. I will take the liberty of submitting to the Committee my proposition upon that subject. [The Witness delivered in the same ; which wat read, asfollauis ••] . PLAN for the repayment of the Provisions furnished toi the Emigrants, after their arrival at the place of location. « Each Fami'y of five persons to be allowed to take up from the public store pro- ^ ; visions for 15 months (consisting of flour or meal, pork, and molasses or sugar, as in the Table of Rations) the quantity being left to the discretion of the '" emigrant, but not to exceed in value 4o«. for each month; so that the whole supply, if required, estimated at 3 rations per \ diem, including seed grain and potatoes, will be - - - .£.30 -• — Interest on 30/. at 5 percent, for five years - - - - 7 10 • ■ ^.37 'o - . In case the emigrant does not take up to the full extent of the allowance, he shall be charged only with the value of the actual supply. In the event of the emigrant repaying one-half of the amount (say 15/.) before the expiration of five years, he shall be allowed three years more in which to repay the remaining moiety, and the whole sum thus liquidated shall be free of interest. If he defers repayment until the expiration of five years, he shall be charged with the principal sum advanced, and the accumulated interest thereon, the whole forming a lien on his estbte ; and at the end of the si:.i,.i year, the interest on t!)e principal (l/. 10 J.) to be exacted, and payment thereof to be required annually, always subject to the deduction correspondent to that portion of the capital (30/.) which he may repay in the interval. The repayment of principal and interest to be made in produce ; viz. pork or grain at the prices fixed for those articles at the time of the <4.dvance being made, grain being taken at its relative value in respect to flour or meal, and the emigrant to be allowed the option of paying money either in whole or in part. At the end of nine years the settler shall be required to pay 20 per cent, or one-fifth of the debt (37 /. los.) and so on annually until the whole is repaid, which will thus be accomplished in six years. , , ^ _ ,, , ,..,.. Table op Rations. ^ • '■ " 60 week s rations, a' 1/3I p'diem £.iy i\ 3 Seed grain and potatoes - - 3 8 q* I. d. li lb. of flour or meal, a' a 3i f lb. of pork, a' • - - — 2 3 oz. of molasses or sugar — -i X.30 - - 3 rations allowed for fivel persons; viz. 1 manfyx 1 woman, 3 children -J - 5* ' n 3j p'diem. • Viz. 2 bushels wheat, a' 5/ - £.- \o - 5 bushels onts, a' 2/ - - 10 » to bushels potatoes, a' 2/6 1 5 ~ Indian corn and grass seed — 39 jf.2 8 9 U ?i =*«= ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa;. 169 Mr. David PoUey Francit, being again called in, delivered in the following Paper, wbich was read : ESTIMATE for the Transport from England, to Algoa Bay and tlio Location within luo miles of that Port, of a iamily of Emigrants, consisting of two Adults and three Children. C' *• d, ^ Passage out, including Freight, Provisions, Water, Fuel and Birthing 36-- ^^"ggo""''''"'' '*"^ '00 miles ■] j _ 2 pair Ulankets - - - - - - - -15- Furniture and Cooking Utensils - - - • 1 lu - Mechanical Implements 1 - - Farming Implements 1-- Seed Wheat, Maize, Potatoes, Garden Seeds - - 3 - - 1 Cow i__ 3 Milch Goats - \2 ~ bix months Provisions, allowing 5 lbs. Butcher's meat |. 4(V' ^^ ^*^ ^°' ^^ Family, and 1 d. per head for Bread and Vegetables 7 '0 - 54 10 - jV. B. No allowance is made for building a house, as every man able to wield an axe may erect a comfortable shelter in three days ; but it would be expedient to allow every family a tent tor two or tliree weeks at first, to secure them, in case of wet weather. '15 1 5- Vou have heard the evidence given by Mr. Felton, with regard to the necessity of from twelve to sixteen montlis provisions in Canada; will you state what are the circumstances of ditierence between that settlement and the Cape, which, in your judgment, render it necessary at the latter to provide only six months provisions.' — Never having been in Canada, I cannot speak to thati 1 can speak only as to the Cape. I coiifeive that if a settler arrives at a proper season, that is, ii) April, and is immediately placed upon his land, he will in the course of six months be able to raise sufficient to subsist himself. 1516. At what time of the year would it be necessary for a settler to leave England, to be located at an hundred miles from the place of landing in April? — It would take about fourteen weeks ; I mean from the port of embarkation in the United Kingdom to Algoa Bay or to bis location. 1517. You mean including the time necessary for his being settled there? — Yes. 1518. In order to laud at the end of April, he must leave England by the beginning of January ? — Yes, he must. 1519. Do you conceive that the risk and expense accompanying the transport would not be considerably increased by the necessity of making a winter passage ?— No, because immediately after they leave England they get into fine weather, and tliey would arrive there Jn the summer or the beginning of autumn. 1520. At what time would the settler begin to sow his seed, so as to prepare for the lollowing harvest ? — He might immediately prepare and sow the latter end of JSIay and beginning of June. 1521. Wiiat crop would he put into the ground? — I should recommend maize. 1522. At what time is that crop reaped at the Cape? — The latter end of August or the commencement of September; I am speaking of Indian coriror maize, if planted at the time mentioned. 15^3. Are there any impediments in the nature of the land to bringing it into immediate cultivation? — None; there is no clearing required; the land is generally open. 1 524. Do you conceive there is no risk or contingency about the crops, which would render it expedient, 011 an average, to make a greater provision for the settlers^ — There is certainly a risk about wheat crops, in consequence of the blight which has prevailed ; but with regard to maize, vegetables, and pumpkins, which are a great resource there, there is no risk, and there is little or no risk in barlejr. 1525. Have you in your contemplation any particular district in which you should recommend the settlement of any number of emigrants? — If it is to be 550. Y located, Mr. D. P. FraHcu. W March, 1117. ' *1 m i 170 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOUE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. D. P. FrMcit. 90 AUrcb, 1(37. 'It located, I should recommend the reded territory between the Great Fiih iiv«r and Kei«hamma. 1536. Are you well or at all acquainted with the nature of '.' > country? — I have been over what I consider t^ie lieat part of it 1.527. Is it entirely clear of timber?— Where thry would wish to grow grain it i» perfectly so. A.;a8. Would there bo any difficulty in procuring materials to build the log< houseH for the settlers ?— None wliatcvcr; such timber as is nccesaar;^- to build the description of houses which Imvc generally iKCn built by the settlers, in matt caws, grows immediately on the spot, or in kloofs or ravines ; there is no heavy timber, but in those situations. 1539. What are tho sorts of timber? — There is a great variety ; there is timber of all descriptions, of the most useful kinds ; there is a yellow wood, which ia something approaching to fir, but harder. ^ 1530. Is that like teak? — No, there is no teak; there are a variety of hard woods, stink woods, &c. 1531. Is the country of which you spenk well watered? — The part of which I speak is well watered, probably better than most other in the colony. 1532. Gun you state generally tlie extent of the district ?— That district, I con- ceive, contains upwards of 1,500,000 acres. 1533* All unoccupied? — Yes, all unoccupied ; one million acres of which, I con- ceive, might be located to very great advantage. 1534. Is it not liable to incursions from the Caffrees ? — It is; it lies bordering upon the Caffrees ; but I apprehend, if there was an European establishment upoit a proper footing, those incursions would not take place so frequent. 1535. What quantity of land should you propose to give to each settler?— The qunntity of land, I think, should vary according to the situation. In that district I wuuld recommend villages, in the first instance, tu be establisiied ; to give them a small portion of ground to each family, such as from two to four acres as garden ground, and then for their cattle should feed in common, because it would be necessary, perhaps, for them to be in a body. 1 536. You mean for the purpose of protection r — Yes. •. ^ . ; '537- Is it to this district you have calculated an hundred miles of waggon conveyance? — Tt would be more than an hundred miles tpthe part I have mentioned. When I made tuat calculation it was with reference to other lands ; I merely made it as a general estimate. 1538. What would you add to the estimate, for the purpose of meeting the increased distance ? — I would add fifty miles, or thereabouts. 1539. Then ' "'fas much again 03 is set down would do for the conveyance?— Yes. 1540. Is the nature of the country such as, in tho absence of roads, to be easily accessible? — Yes, quite so; the natural roads are very good, if they can be so called. 1541. Upon what are the remaining items of the expense put down by you, calculated ? — The implements I have estimated apon the prices in England ; the cow, at the price in the Cape. • 1542. You do not suppose that the demand for labour in other parts of the settlement would have the effect of drawing away settlers afler their six months were out ? — I think it would not have that effect ; tliey would find themselves so well off after an establishment of twelve months, that they would not be induced to leave. i.f?43- Would there be any inducement in the high price of free labour in the neighbourhood of the Cape? — No, I think not; this would be at a distance of 700 miles from the Cape. 1544. You have stated, you thought the tribes in the neighbourhood would not attack an European settlement; on what ground do you state that? — I found my opinion on what I have known to be the case in the colony ; the Dutch boors^ who are the old colonists, and the natives, have always lived on very bad' terms ; but the natives have generally shown a disposition to be much more friendly towards thu English, and I conceive, with a proper system adopted, one of mild^ ness and firmness, th^' - would bj a lucrative barter trade carried on, to mutual advantage. 1545. You think with that system, they would be in no danger ? — Yes, that is my opinion. 154C. Upon ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837 171 *■ 1546. Upoo what Kroumi have you made u reduction from your evkJmco on Saturday, in the cxpcnM for a family, frotn 45/. to 36/. ?— What I mentioiied on Saturday, I then took at what wai allowad to the lettleri when they went out in i8ao; they were fed very difiereutly ; this eitimate U with reference to Mr. Buchanan*!) plan of feeding tham. >547- Would not tliosc setdcri have cuniiderable difficulty in obtaining clothing for tbemaeives ?— They would generally be clottiad in tkint, wtiich they would tan themselves, such ns their sheep ' goat skins ; that is the general clothing of tlic Doors, and that description of pci u.^ in the interior. 1 548. With what growth is the turfacH) of the country at present covered ?—Gra5s of two descriptions ; tiiere is a sweet and a sour grass. 1549. In calculating your expense to the Cape, have you tukcn the same estimate of tho number of passeneers to the ton, which ^l^, Huchanan has taken to the North American Colonies ? — Yes. 1 5 jo. Do not you conceive, from the difTerciicc of climate, they must make some diflference in the room allowed, and also some difference in the amount of provisions, which must be calculated on ? — I think there should not be quite so many to a ton to tlie Cape as to tho North American Colonics. 1551. In making your calculations as to the Cape, you perhaps omitted to take that into your consideration ?— Yes, I did not think of that at tho moment ; it is very essential. 1553. That would make some difference in the expense, tlicn ? — Yes, a little; but not quite so much as may probably be conceived. * aSS' Do you think as much provisions |)cr duy would be necessary in the passage to tlie Cupe, as to the North American Colonics.^ — Yes ; and it may be necessary to vary it, on account of climate. ■ .y Thomas Lacotte, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 1554- WHERE do you reside ?— At Chertsey, in Surrey. J 1555- Have you any unemployed poor in your parish r— Yes, a good many. iS.!^'- Can you state to the Committee at what rate they are paid? — I believe that, throughout the winter, we allow two shillings u head per week for a man, the same his wife, and cighteen-pence a head for the children. >557- Do you set them to work on any thing?— Yes, we set them to digging gravel and skreening it, and breaking stones for tho roads. 1558. Do you set them to work upon that, for the sake of employing them, or for the sake of any material profit ? — Principally for the take of employing them, and sometimes for the purpose of gravelling the roads ; but those I speak of, who are allowed this money, have no work at all. Those who dig gravel, have a small pay from the parish. 1559. Supposing in that parish there were a man and hit wife and three children utterly out of employ the whole year, and that the parish had to maintftin them during that year ; what is the expense at which you would estimate the maintenance ^f that family P— At 8 J. 6d. a week. 1560. You think it could not be done at. less money than that P — No. 1561. Doyuu include lodging in that?— They pay the rent themselves out of that sum. i5<)2. In point of fact, therefore, you estimate tho 8«. 6d. a week to cover all the iexpenses those poor occasion to the parish ?-^ Yes, except in case of any particular illness, when they are ordered wine by the surgeon. If it is a child at the breast they do not allow so much as cightcen-pence a week for, that. 1563. Supposing a proposition were to be made to your pamh, f removing any of the noor unemployed families, do you think there would !^ u dihpjsition on the part ofthe parish, from a sense of your own interests, to con 'rrn tbr ten years to an annuity of eight or ten pounds a year, if the consequence wu!» to get rid of each pauper far.iiy absolutely ? — I should have no doubt of it. 1564. You are not of opinion that the circumstance of charging the parish rates with a certain annuity for ten years, wOutd not induce the parish to hesitate, inasmuch as those paupers might be employed elsewhere, or leave the parish, or find employ^ ment within the parish, in tlie course of ten years ?— No, I think the pariali would be glad to pay eight or ten pounds during the term of years mentioned, in order to get rid of them. 1 565. You entertain no doubt that the proprietors, or those interested in the 5.50. Y 3 subject Mr. V D. P. fraaeU. to Martii, lto7. nonai Lmalfe, £iq. t' 4 i Tkumai Im*mIi, , _ iM' ^ ao Mtrcb, ila7. 17a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE HEFORE SELECT COMMinEK •ubject of parochial met in thf parUli in which you rcsitie, woul«t conaent wllliftgly to charge their parish rates willi c\f}\i or ten poumU for wvcral year*, provi.|«t the paupera were removed, in a Nitisfactory iimi^iier, wiiere they woul(i »» liltely to auf t«)d, and if they were (ieprivcd by law of tiic power of ever again being chargeable to that parish ?— 1 have no doubt of it, provided there ii a law h> enable them to do it. iSfiC. You do not apprehend there would be any difficulty in mw;\ the monej, provided the pHrisli rates were anpropriutcd to the repayment?- riuro .M be no difficulty at all, if llicrc were legal facilities. 1567. From your general knowledge upon those subjects, do vou conceive that parishes similarly circumstanced would genernlly be disposed to do the "aino thing ? —I should really think so ; there can be no doubt of it. 1568. Do you think that if the advantages which might be looked to in removing to a British colony, were explained to llio paupers, some families would be induccif to make the experiment?— I have no doubt of it. 1 569. From your knowledf^ of the lower orders of people, do you know an^ men who are now making great efforts to avoid becoming burdensome to the parish ? — Yes; I know there are in our parish several who hiive too much pride, if I may call it so, to become so, and who, though they are greatly distressed, still keep themselves from the parish. 1,570. Do you know whether there are any description of labourers who at the commencement of the winter endeavour by every means in their power to find masters, rathei than throw themselves >m the parish? — Yes, certainly there are. 1571. Do those persons reside in the workhouse or in cottages? — In cottages. 1572. What would become of those cottages if those persons were removed ? — I do not know ; there are a great many that arc mere mud cottages, not of any value, which if uninhabited would fall down within the course of n very few months. 1573. Would they be prevented being occupied by other fiersons? — I dare say there are a great muny which have been built on the parish land by permission, and which would be pulled down by the parish. 1,574. From your knowledge of the law of settlement, would it foe possible for a poor married man to come into that parish and obtain a settlement ? — No, for the rent would not be sufficient to enable them to do it. 1575- What is the population of your parish ?-~ Between four and five thousand. 1576. How many families having settlements are now in the permanent receipt of two and twenty pounds a year from your parish ? — I really do not know how many. 1577. Are there many families in the parish of Chertsey who are wholly on the parish, except during a few weeks in harvest? — Yes, there are several families. 1578. How many families, except during the harvest, live exclusively upon tho parochial fund ? — I cannot state the number, but I can state that we pay to people of this description about 1 1 o/. on an average, monthly. 1 579. How lon^ has this been the case ? — I should think fbr seven or eight years about the same as it is now. 1580. Have you a select vestry in your parish ? — Yes. , ^ ,, ,,. • 1581. Have you a poor-house in your parish ? — Yes. 1583. How many paupers is it capable of containing? — The most that ever I remember in it were 128; we have now 65 in it; the last time we let it, we let the tohole by the head at 35. 6d. per week per head, but the select vestry have just made up their accounts, and they find it has cost them under their own manage- ment 3f. 1 ro|HMitioii wlicii ha» l)ccn niadt to you, it it ncrcuKurv you tliouhi mark, that no einif{rantR would be removed who were not uhle-lxMlied mid within certain agcii, and eapablc of making settlers ; arc you of o|iiiiion thut would |ircvi iit the parish coming into the proposition?- 1 think not. 1,591. Are nut tlic {icoplc who are Nup|iortcd in the |Kx>r-liouNe ftdurully the iiiuM idle?— Ciencrully. 1593. What is the diNtribntion of land in your parish, is it in large profiCTtifs or sniall ? — The largest landholder in the parish is the Crown, and next to tliut Air. Holme Sumner ; and others have lurge pro|)crtivs in the parish. I J9.1- I^u you conceive that there is etficient control in the hunds of the parish, and liliat tliat control is in the hands of |>ersons who conceive it more llieii interest to diminish the poor-rates than to receive a rent for their rottagcs r — I think there are mony persons who would not care about the parisli as long as they got their rents ; with us we make it a rule never to pay any rent for a cottage. i,)94. What is the rent of your cottages? — Generally from tour pounds to six. >595- How is it possible that a man who gets but eight and sixpence a week can pay that rent i — Very often they do not pay it at all, I believe. 1596. Are any of'^ those houses which are occupied by paupers, the pro|)erty of members of the select vestry ? — Yes, certainly. 1597. Is the number considerable? — I cannot say whether the number is considerable. 1598. Do you think that the memliers of the select vestry who hold cottages, would be induced to reject this propo.sition, by the interest they have in letting their cottages? — Certainly not. 1 599. Is it possible for a married poor mai to obtain a ticttictncnt liy any means coming into the parish and occupying one of those cottages ? — Nu, certainly not, unless (which is done sometimes) he occupies two or three for the purpose of occu- pying to the extent of ten pounds a year, to make himself a parishioner ; I know that at the time when bread and provisions were so high, wc behaved much better to the poor of our parish than the neighbouring parishes, in consequence of which we had a great many parishioners made in our parish. itioo. Was not that previous to Mr. Bourne's Act, which made the whole of thi. rental necessary to lie in the same parish ? — Yes, it appears it wa.s ; I refer to a period about twelve years ago. 1601. In the event of any family coming into your parish, and occupying u cottage, and not being a parishioner, and requiring parochial relief, would not the parish instantly remove them ? — Yes. 1603. You have stated, that the average rate which the paupers arc paid in your parish, for a man and his wife and three children, is 8«. 6ected 1 »hould see it shot down shortly, but I went on from Combe Wood Warren to Merton, that is three miles, and there I found tliem shoot- ing the gravel down by the side of the road. I had to come back, and I thought I would inquire how they paid for labour, as we had men employed in wheeling gravel ; I asked one of them, " You seem to be heavily laden, my man, (two bushels of gravel in the barrow is a heavy load,) how do you manage tliis." " I have three-pence a bushel to wheel it three miles ; I take two bushels at a time, that makes six-pence." Then they could go twice a-day, if they would let them ; but the single men they would not permit to go twice a-day, they went twice one da/, and once the other : the married men went twice. I thought it the tightest fit cf labour I ever saw, to wheel two bushels of gravel that distance ; our men do not wheel one. if . - Mr. James Homewood, called in ; and Examined. iC.'JS. WHERE do you reside?— At Headcorn, near Maidstone, in Kent. 1654. Have you any knowledge of paupers from that parish having been sent out to America ? — Yes. I have ; 1656. Yes. 1057 Have you a statement of the number of persons who have been sent ? — I took it out of the parish book yesterday. It appears by this paper, that eighty persons were sent from your parish ? — Did you give those persons money to take them to the ship ? — We agreed on a sum which we supposed it would cost them, and that they would have a trifle of money in their pockets when they arrived in America. 1 658. Do you find any disposition on the part of the peciple to emigrate ? — Yes, we have several men who wish to go now. 1659. Have you had an opportunity of hearing from those people who have arrived ? — Yes, they have all done well ; none of them wish to CAme back. 1 660. You applied those sums from the parish rates ? — Yes ; a part of the money we have borrowed ; we owe now about one hundred and seventy pounds out of that sum ; but we have called a vestry, and taken the general opinion of the parish ; if thiijre is only one objection we cannot do it, but we have never met with an objec- tion ; those persons who now wish to go, we have objections against, and therefore -'ve cannot send them. 1661. What is the total number you have sent? — Eighty, I think. 1662. Have you found an advantage in the reduction of your rates? — Yes, it appears by that paper I have given in, but not so much as I expected it should. 1663. Were those persons all paupers chargeable upon the parish? — They were, all of them. 1664. What is the effect produced upon your parish rates by their removal ? — In the year 1823, we raised 3,308/. 11*. sd. ; in the year following, 1824, we raised 2,025/. ; in the year 1825, we raised 1,925/. 6s. \d. ; and the present year is 1,919/. i6j. 1665. Have you every year been incurring an expense in the conveyance of persons to Canada ? — Yes, we owe now 170/. all the rest has been paid ; we took down what those people had cost us for some time back, a year back, and we concluded we would borrow the money and pay off the sum which they had cost us, calculating that there was no reason to think but that they would cost us as much if we kept them at home. 1 666. At what did you estimate the payments to those people ? — Sometimes they cost a great deal of money, sometimes they cost us a little less ; one of those persons, Edward Chambers, cost us sixteen shillings a week for some time before he went. The criterion to judge of the expense would be, to take the cases of Chambers and Morgan and the others, who had not any thing of tlicir own ; they were sent entirely at the parish expense ; several others had friends who assisted them, and gave them part of the money. 1667. Though you have been incurring annually an expense for the conveying emigrants to Canada, your rates have notwithstanding been decreased ? — They have been. 1668. What was the amount of expenditure on those individuals who were sent out wholly at the expense of the parish r — 179/. 1C69. What U\ ■■■ I '^riilta "N)H9 ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 179 d Hown?— No; those which arc let, are let at only half the rent they used to get for them. 1695. Are they occupira by parishisners ? — Yes ; we do not let any other per- sons come, if we can help it. 1696. There will be no new settlements obtained in consequence of their leaving? — I hope 'iiot. Mr. Samuel Maine, called in; and Examined. ' ' ' £ r '*-.■■ r 1697. IN what part of the country do you reside? — At Hanworth, in the county of Middlesex. 1698 How far is that from London ? — Twelve miles from Hyde Park Corner. 1 699. Are you overseer of that parish ? — I am. 1700. Are there a great number of unemployed poor in that parish? — Yes, there arc. 1701. Su|)po8ing a man and woman and three children to be wholly out of employment the whole year, at what should you estimate the expense to the parish ? — I should think from ten to twelve shillings a week. 1702. In point of fact those persons cost 35/. a j'ear to the parish? — Yes, sup- posing them to be out of employ the whole year. 1 703. Are you not of opinion that if a certain number of families were taken away who were employed the whole year, that would have a very material effect in relieving the poor-rates? — Yes, I think it would produce a great relief to the parish. 1 704. Have you a great many who are at all tiir.c!) on the parish rates, except during the harvest months i — Yes, a great man}' who are employed on the roads, where they earn very little. 1 705. You have stated, that a family consisting of a man, a ivoman and three children, would cost 35/. a year; suppose the man to be able-bur!ted, and the family healthy, in you think the parish would consent to mortgage their rates for ten years, from ei >ht to ten pounds a year, provided an Act >vere passt^d relieving them from all furt'ier claims from those persons ? — Speaking from myself, I should consent to it ; but I cannc; state the opinion of the parish. 1 7o(i. Have you any doubt that when the parish were informed that the saving would be 15/. a year, that would induce the generality of the parish to come into that preposition ? — That would divide itself in this way ; some of the occupiers of land, who have leases which will not exist more than five years, would oppose it; while those who have to stay in the parish for twenty years would approve of it. 1 707. If a man has a lease for five years, he notild find that instead of paying 35/. he would pay 10/.; would he not have an interest in that change? — Certainly. 1 708. Are you of opinion that if tliat was adopted by the parish, effectual means could and would be taken to prevent the poor gaining fresh settlements in the parish? — Yes, I think there would. 1 709. Do you think the futuve inhabitants of the cottages they might leave would gain a settlement ? — No, J do not think that the parish would allow it, if they could help it. 1710. Do you ever pay the rent of cottages out of the poor-rates in this parish ? — Partially we do, but not generally ; we set our faces against it, but in case of necessity we are obliged to do it. 1 71 !• You restrict that observation to cases where the pauper must have a house over his head, aud you are obliged to < y the rent, for tlie purpose of finding him lodging? — Yes, we pay the rent of sevcial cottages under those circumstances. 171a. Do you think that if the prospect of relief from that state of dependence, by being sent out to Canada, were held out to those persons, they would be ready to avail themselves of it ? — I think, if they generally understood it, they would feel jt a very desirable thing, for there are a great many of the parishioners who are able-bodied men, who are willing to get work, and cannot get work to do. 1713. And tht»t class of persons, you think, would feel disposer* to assent to the proposition r — I think so. ' 1714. Has l^'M i M i i ON EMIGRATION FllOM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa;. 181 1714. Has your pauper population increased lately? — Yes, wc have had it increased very uiucli, by their being sent homo from other parishes. 1715. When a man becomes permanently on your parish, with his family, aAer he has been there a year or two, is there a probability of his a|(uiii gt^t'.inj; employ- mcnt, and getting off the rates r — I have not found it so ; itccording to the ex|M.Ticnce I have in the parish, there is not one in a hundred who gets off again. 1716. Their families increase ? — Yes. 1717. And there is a prospect of their children remaining on the parish? — Yes ; they get married, and the first time the wife is put to bed, they beconw burthensome to us. 1718. You think their stale of distress does not prevent their increasing?— No. 1719. On the other hand, they are interested in having a family, bccf'se you allow them according to their families? — Yes; I allow some families 15«. a week, and they can do very little with that ; they have their housc-rent paid for them besides. ,- 1720. Have you a select vestry in your parish? — A public veitry. 1721. What is the size of your parish ? — The whole population is 600, and the parish contains about thirteen'hundred acres of land. 1722. What is the size of your poor-house ?— We have no poor-bouse; we have built five cottages lately. 1 723. What do you think would be the probable cipense of building a work- house in your parish, to contain all your pauper poor ? — I should think it would take us 1,500/. 1724. At what would you estimate the expense of each man, woman ond child in the parish, when you got them there ? — I tlimk it would not be possible to support them so cheaply as we do at present. 1725. Have not all the farmers in your parish as many hands as they can employ ? — Yes, a great many more than can be employed ; there arc a great many paupers that want employment, I should think eight months out of twelve. 1 726. Do you think that of those people who are not employed, from not'being able to find employment, if they were to be put into a poor-house, any valuable result would follow from that ?— I think not. 1 727. Have not you more able-bodied paupers in your parish than you can find employment for ? — Certainly we have. 1728. (To Mr. Taylor.) Are there not many able-bodied paupers in the parish of Feltham, for whom you can find no employment ? — Yes, ten months out of twelve. 1 729 (To Mr. Lacoste.) Are there not many able-bodied paupers in the parish of Chertsey, for whom you can find no employment r — Yes, we have many more abln-bodied labourers than we can find employment for. 1730. (To Mr. Maine.) Supposing a system were adopted, under which pauper families could emigrate, and that the parishes were willing to charge their rates for the purpose of emigration in the manner suggested; after such a plan had been fully explained to the poor, and when they understood all the advantages it offered to them, are you not of opinion that practically you would be able to keep at a less expense those able-bodied paupers who preferred staying in the parish upon their parochial rights, to taking advantage of he facilities held out to emigration ? — Certainly. 1731. Do you not think that the effect of that would be to reduce the amount paid to those persons ? — There is not the least doubt of it. 1732. But as you know that many of those men are not out of work in conse- quence of their own idleness, but in consequence of there being no work for them, you feel that it would be very harsh to reduce them to that degree of pressure to which you tiiink you would feel yourself justified in resorting, if there were facilities .ifforded for emigration ? — Yes, certainly. Mr. Sumutl Mumt. ao Mirrb, Ili7. ii' 1^ . 550. Zj ¥ I 1 82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMirfEE Sabbati, 24" die Mar tit, 1827. [37ie Chairman presented to the Committee, in pursuance of their Order of the ayth February last, Return from the several Townships in the Parish of Wilmslow, in the county and diocese of Chester ; and the same was read, and is asfolloweth •] RETURN in answer to the Order of the Select Committee of Ehioratiov, addressed to the Overseers of the several Towustiips in the Parish of fVilmslow, County and Diocese of Chester. \} t QUERIES. Bollin Fee. Pownall Fee. Chorlcy. Fulshaw. TOTAL. Query lat. The number of houses inhabited by per- •ona who have received re- lief of any deacription from the poor-rates 7* 33 7 G 118 Query 3d. The number' of aiich housei, of which either the whole or part of the rent haa been paid, di- rectly or indirectly, out of the poor-rates - . . 37 11 4 3 63 Query 3d. The number of houses inhabited by pau- pers, which are theproperty of individuala belonging to the select vestry 7 QO 1 . 38 The above is a true! Return, to the beat of our \ knowledge and belief -J Charles Fletcher, George Shatviell, Overauen, Itaac Goodif, fny Roger Bradkr^, Overseers. George Fletcher, 1 9en;" Whillegg, Overseers. Mary Ann Burgeit, Overseer. THIS Return ii limited to auch houses as arc situated within the pariah, and does not include the renli paid on account of paupers who reside in other districts. Wilmslow, March 33, 1837. J. M. Turner, (Rector of Wilmslow.) lifi H'i A. Campbell, Esq. 34 March, 1837. Alexander Campbell, Esq. called in ; and Examined. ' 733. YOU are Sheriff Substitute for Renfrewshire, and resident in Paisley ? — Yes ; I have been so these 24 years. 1 734. Have you had an opportunity of reading the evidence given before this Committee on the subject of Scotland ? — I have read the evidence only of a few witnesses. I have read that of Mr. Maxwell, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Home Drummond, Mr. Kennedy, of John Tail and James Wilson, two weavers delegated by the Emi- gration Societies in Paisley, and of Mr. Northhouse. 1 735. Do you concur in the details of the present state of the population, as stated by those witnesses ?— I concur, generally, as to the state of distress ; but there are things stated of which I am ignorant, and some few things as to which I should perhaps not give the same answers. 1 736. Will you refer to any opinions from which you would be obliged, in some degree, to dissent ?— I really am not able at this moment to do so from recollection, having had but a very hasty perusal of the evidence referred to. 1 737. Do you concur as to the extent of distress which has been described by the witnesses ? — I do ; the distress was very general and very great. 1 738. Are you aware of the circumstance of the probable ejectment of a great number of weavers families, in the course of the month of May, from their present habitations ? — I think that is extremely probable ; I know very well that the rents of houses possessed by the weaving classes of Paisley have been extremely ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 183 TOTAL, 118 65 aS by extremely ill paid for the lost year ; worie, perhaps, than they ever were before ; the owners of houses, of course, are very much dissatisfied, being in many instances themselves dependent upon the rents ; and I believe, now that a recent and very considerable increase of cntployment has taken place, for what is called the Spring trade, and that wages have advanced a little, the owners will be disposed to use their utmost exertions to obtain payment of their rents; and in Scotland the Committee are aware that houses are almost universally taken by the year, from May to May. 1739. ^'^ y^^ ^^ opinion that the removal of a certain number of families, •ccoi'ding to the principles explained by the questions put to previous witnesses, would have the effect of mitigating the distress, by improving the condition of those who remain ? — I certainly um ; at least fur a time. 1 740. With reference to the principle, that the removal of the excess of redundant pauper population will materially improve the condition of those who remain, are you enabled to furnish the Committee with any conjectural estimate as to the number of persons (measuring them in the proportion of families of five, consisting of ft man, a woman, and three children) who might be removed from the neighlwurhood of Glasgow and Paisley, in the course of the present year, and the comfort of those who remain be materially improved by such removal ?— I have nut turned my attention to an estimate of that description, but I should certainly think that the removal of those who are now applying to this Committee, and who are extremely anxious to remove, would have a decided, though probably a temporary effect in improving the condition of those who remain. 1741. Are you enabled to state to the Committee the precise i. umber of those whom you consider as direct petitioners before this Committee for emigration ? — Accordmg to my information, which is perhaps not so exact as that which has been given by Mr. Northhouse in particular, and which is derived from conversations at different times with some of the delegates from the Emigration societies, 1 make the number of heads of families belonging to Renfrewshire Emigration Societies to be 920, independent of a society called the Irish Protestant and the Kilbarton Society, and perhaps some other, and I should estimate the whole at more than a thousand families. 1 742. Probably the calculation may be sufficiently accurate in estimating these at the proportion of 5,000 persons, including men, '/omen and children ?— Yes. I think there is one Irish society not included in the 920 families which I have mentioned ; that society consists of 1 00 families ; t^i I' toil T/ it 'I r. I! ff I- }: , I Hi, A. Cimpltll, Kiq. 34 MurrI 1817. 184 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE district, independently of the mere removal of pecuniary prcit > r cucii a refjulution ? — I dare say there might be a reduction, but to wliat extent I have not hud iiccciis to know. 1 749. You are nware that some of those persons have appeared bdorc tiic Committee, and have pledged themselves, in consequence of llie eonviction they have received from Ihuir friends in Canada (this Kmigration bein^ intended tu Nuvu Scotia, but the principle must be the same) that they should be perfectly able to repay the expense incurred in their removal, and that if necessary, they would, jointly and severally, bind themselves to cfteci such payment at the end of seven years, when it is proposed that it shall commence, and in the meantime pay interest at five per cent on the money expended in their removal, a lien remaining upon their lands as an ndditiui.ul security ; are you of opinion that those parties will continue fixed in their resolution to perform tliis part of their contract? — As matter of opinion, it is mi'^'C, that these people, such has been the ( xtent of their depression at home, tvili most gratefully accede to u proposal in these terms, and I am persuaded that their intentions to fulfil whatever p'edge they give, are at present honest and sincere. But I must add, that though I perceive that their imtnediate coiiveyunre to Nuva Scotia, and not to Upper Canada, may be a matter of expediency, it is new to nic; and I have some doubt whether the proposition ot making Nova Scotia their destination will not be felt ;s a great disappointment i>y the expecting emigrants. They have got ideas with respect to the climate and the soil, and the previous settlers in Upper Canada, (soniu of whom are their correspondents and acquaintances) that I fear are different from the notions they entertain of Nova Scotia; about which, at all events, I q;H -tion if they possess very perfect information. I fear they would be disuppf 'nlfcJ i; they understood that it was intended to locate them in Nova Si otia ; but Kt ilie ;-;ir le timC; such has been their expectations and anxiety for a consi- dc:ao>" -iinc a'lout being furnished with the means of emigration, that I conceive tlie t>if?i' of b^-ing sent out to Nova Scotia, though less acceptable, will be received as a boon 17.50. Are you of opinion that the advantage of se nring this emigration would be strongly felt in the county of Renfrew, that if facilities nre L;ivtn to effect it, there would be any disposition on the |)art ot the proprietoi;i of lands in that county to raise money on the security of a county 1 ^te, or by other means, to assist for tlie purposes of this Emigration in the proportion uf one-third, it being estimated that 1,000 persons could be removed for an expense of 60/. each family, making 13,000/. for the whole? — I have had no opportunity Of putting a question of that sort to any considerable number of the landholders, and I have therefore no direct authority for what I am about to say; hut I do feel very confident that it would be extr^ujely diiHcult to raise any sum in the way proposed, that would be worth acceptance in aid of emigration. The county gentlemen of Renfrewshire have already incurred considerable, and some of them very great expense in alleviating the late severe and protracted distress; and now that it hcs abated, (though leaving its victims exhausted,) I am of opinion that they will not be disposed to contribute further at present ; and this the more especiallv as there exists some difference of opinion in the county of Renfrew, respecting the advantages of emigration. It is not for the interest of master manufacturers in the West of Scotland, that the labour market should he drained of a large portion of ingenious tradesmen ; and it may be easily conceived that apprehensions will arise, that a number of these men, by passing over to the United States, may injure us in a national point of view ; although I, for one, do not believe that the proposed emigrants have any such intentions at present. The conduct of the Ifandholdcrs must of necessity be very much regulated in all such matters hy the peculiarity of the Scottish poor laws ; and there is no power at present recognized in Sho^ ther not of a for 5 ,)» ON EMIGRATION FROM Tllli UNIIED KINGDOM iSj; 1H5 in ihf law of Scotland, hy which the nmnty ciin Iw n«f««!ur|iOM;. A» to voluntary cuntriluitions, iiHiiiy Ktronu rrui«()ii* will occur a,>iiiti<(t it. 17,^1. 11 u (jiication was put uuilrr (he idia tliut u l(')(iout that also; I do l)cliove that many of the landlioldi 14 uf Kcnficwsiiirc would be tliiponed to rcf^ard the iiroposed mode of administering relief rather as a national than a county i|ueKtion, and «vo>dd deem it extremely hard, that, iHicaune tlncy happened to be luudholders of u |)ar- ticulur county more deeply attected tliun numt others t>y tlic late general de- pression of trade, they should bi made respoiiitiblc in a mcNle so new, especially after (he contributions they have already made tu avert absolute starvation and disease. 1752. Can you give the Committee any sort of approximation to the amount of money which in the course of the last year, 1K26, has been contributed by Hcnfrcw- shirc towards the expense of the pauper weavers, under motives of charity ? — Yes; I find by an account which I have had taken from the books of the County Relief Committee, (of which I am a member,) that the amount received within the last twelve muntiis, from the King, t'roni the London Committee, from the Edinburgh Committee, from the county of lladdii from the Glasgow Committee, amounts t thnt the amount of local contributid subscription and by various expedietu makin>; a total of about 32,ouo/. 17.')3. Indepei\dLmly of coals? — Ye kitchen in Paisky, and in clothing. Dm from the Newcastle Committee, and < a fraction of 14,000/. ; and I fmd '"' of Rcnfew, raised by voluntary md numbers to about S,ouu/., iff jfcndent of donations for a soup Oclievi; the direct contributions got from the inhabitants of the county of Ucnfrciv cannot be stated much higher than 5,000/, These contributions, however, are ail exclusive of private charity given to a great extent by individuals. 1754. Then, in point of fact, unlets causes which cannot be at present anticipated, remove this distress, the county of Renfrew, if it continues to exercise the same degree of charity it has done, wdl be called upon to pay .^,000/. per annum ; and if the other sources of relief which you have mentioned should fail, they would be placed under the alternntivc of witnessing the absolute destruction by famine of this pauper population, unless their contributions shall be increased largely beyond the 5,000/.? — I should think that an effect which will not Ijc anticipated at present. I have already stated that the distress has in the meantime very greatly abated, by the increase of employment in the course of the Spring trade ; and I have to add the following particulars :— The greatest number on the county committee's regular list of persons to whom allowances were given in any single week, from the commciicement of our distresses in Spring 1826, down to the 22d February last, was in the week ending 21st December, being 2,725 families ; the average number was 2,030. Subsequent to the 21st December, the average number stood thus :— -4r, 1826: December 28 - - - • 2,675 1827: January 4 11 18 25 * • - 3,633 2,473 2,109 1,726 February 1 - - >,473 > z : 8 >5 22 J - 1,361 1,245 1,088 March ■ ■ * 1 8 '5 ■ ■ 1,044 975 936 families. Showing a decrease, in twelve weeks, of 1,739 families. Jo these 936 families there are, as I understand, no weavers who are proper objects of emigration ; I do not believe that any of the petitioners arc of their number. They consist generally of aged or indifferent workers, whose earnings, if employed, would be inadequate for their support, and who probably have not the neceisary implements for weaving ; 550. Aa . and . ■"' - ' " f i'umiilKJI, 14 Mtrcli, J*J7. ill mi' %■ ^%, ^, IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I 1.25 l^|Z3 |2.5 no ^^™ mI^H i u: tlil 2.2 Hiuu U 11.6 Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WIST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716)872-4903 V iV < •S5 <^ <• <«\ "S^ ^y^ '^. '^^. ^^^ \ '^. "^ e?: i8^ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ii, If til A. CampUU, E»q. 't4 MaKh, •* I Bay. and of fenialett, who used to earn a 8ubsistenv« by kinds of work for which a de- mand has not revived. It is inherent in the nature of trade and manu&ctures, that •t certain periods there will occur seasons of stagnation and distress, whereby a great many operatives are thrown out of employment; but such seasons of ad- versity do not necessanly, in Scotland, entail upon Jhe landholders any very severe burden, unless the dutress be of long oontinuancq^and the numbers thrown out so extremely large as to threateq epidemic disease or disturbance, in which case all minor considerations will give way. I do not believe it is anticipated at present that such an occurrence will soon tike place again, although tiiere are causes operating which may depress the wages of manufacturing labour very iomi and if any steps could be taken to prevent the influx of poor uisb, it is believed by many that there would be no permanent redundancy in the labour market of ScolJand. 1755- Supposing that measures were to be taken generally, which would practically produce a less influx of native Irish into Scodai^, such measures being concurrent with an^ charge to be sustained by the country eventually for the purposes of emigration, are you not of opinion that the knowledge of that nict would tend to reconcile die inhabitants of that countiy to any permanent charge imposed upon them, for the purpose of getting rid of tiiat population? — I should think it very difiicult to reconcile the county of F«>nirew, or any county In Scotland, to a permanent charge of that kind ; as a general measurej the county of Renfrew might possibly concur, but only concur with other counties in Scotland, in paying a sum for the being insured against a recurrence of similar distresses as connected #ith a redundant manuiactqbng population, and with a corresponding b#den upon the poor funds. But the stronger probability is, that the landholders would generally prefer to take the risk of a dutant contingency, titan to incur a certain pecuniary obligation of the description referred to. 1756. You have dtated, that for the last year the expense for charity in the county of Renfrew far exceeded the sum of 5,000/. ; and from all the evidence this Committee has received, an uniform opinion has been stated, that in consequence of the power-loom having superseded the hand loom, there is no chance whatever of a demand for the labour of the weavers in the neighbourhood of Glasgow and Paisley increasing, so as to improve their present condition? — In the first place I would remark, that I do not consider power-looms to have been in any very considerable degree the cauue of our late distresses ; I believe that the previous, speculative excess of manufactures in general, and the consequent glut in all the markets, have been the principal causes. In the county of Renfrew iu particular, the prevailing manufactures are figured goods of silk and of cotton, upon which a deal of expensive work is bestowed, and which the power-looms cannot produce. I am quite aware that power-looms have a very considerable aiid an incres«Qg effect in superseding hand looms in every manufacturing district, though perhaps less im Renfrewshire than elsewhere. And prospectively speaking, I bdieve that the operation of power- looms, joined to the increased production of fcy^ign manu- factures, may have a powerful and permanent influcJuoe in diminiahing the 4kinand for hand-loom weavers. 1757. If you do not attribute much of the distress to the power-looms, what do you consider to be the reason why the weavers are in so much a worse situaoon than the spinners ? — It may be a little difficult lor one who is not a manufacturer to give a satisfactory answer, but I believe a cotton spinner could easily do so. The cotton spinning is a peculiar trade, and the wages in it have been always high; and one reason, at least, why they are high is, that the employment is considered unhealthy, and the' work hours are long. Foreigners, to enable themselves to weave cotton fabrics, were obliged to purchase the yarn from our spinners, ahd hence thelatter might be in full .employment, whUe the ^weavers were not. But notwithstanding these reasons, and the facilities they have for combination and mutual support, I havelieen cften surprised how the wages of cotton spinners could have been so very high, when other operatives, who deserved at least as well, were starving ; but such has been the fact. 1758. In point of fact, though you do not concur as to the precise effect produced by the power-lootiis, stated by other wittKsses, you do concur in thinking that there are causes not less operative, which make it improbable that the present redundant manufacturing population can fairly be absorbed by the demands of the capitalists, so as to place them in a materially imptttved condition ? — I agree . . . . in ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. >*87 in that propontioo, keeping in view, however, th»t at present the employment is pretty general, though the wages are low. 1 759. Are yott of opfaiion that, allowing ample time for the subject to be under- stood, u 5,000 persons were removed from the county of Renfrew, and, if measures were taken of a similar natii|k from other parts of the United Kingdom where population may be in excess, men would be any indisposition on the part of the proprietors in the county of Renfrew to estaMisb a county rate to the extent of a thousand pounds per annum for 60 years, for the purpose of getting rid of those 5,000 persons ; under which coanty rate it is to be presumed, and must be con- ' iidered as part of the question, that they will be relieved from the daim upon their charity which you have described to have actoally taken place to the extent of 5,000/. in the ditarse of the last year? — The claim alluded to, being a claim upon cfaari^, will be considered as having been discharged for a time ; and if the pre posed county rate is supposed to apply solely to tbe landholder, I do certainly feel 00 faesitatioa in assoriii^ the Commilteie, thatt the very strongest ol^tions will be felt to any such assessment ^ 1760. Would any rate that would bear apon property other than land, combined with the rate upon tbe land produdng the same amount, be more likd^ to be acceded to i — It would certainly be more acceptable to the landholders, if there abould be a county rate, that part of it shoald apply to those who are considered fay tbcm as tbe meons of bringing into tbe county, when trade is flourishing, a large number of people, who^ when a reverse comes, are thrown upon the poor's rates, or bwome sopolicants for spontaneous relief. The landbolden will naturally con- tend, that a fw proportion shoald be borne by those who illbeive most advantage from tbe Burplns labourers. 1761. Supposing that tbe manufacturing capitalists, and tbe owners of houses, wen to refuse to consent to any such arrangement for such an otyect, you are of opimon that under all the given circumstances of society in the county of Renfrew the landholders would think that their own interests in a pecuniary point of view would be more consulted by the presence and continuance of this redundant^ populatwn, than by getting rid of it for tbe charge of a thousand pounds per annum fordo years as proposed; always presopposii^ that they are satisfied that that charge would effectually rid them of that population for tbe future? — I certainly do think that their objection would remain onimpured, unless it were at such a time ■s we have just witnessed. Tbe number of Irish amongst us, who may be regarded as constitating the mass of oor svrplus workers^ would not by tbe agriculturists be reckoned as a v^ great evil ; for it is a &ct, that if an extensive drain, or canal, or road, or any other thing, were to make, that could be done by piecework (for the ordioaiy form labour of ttie county is performed by Scots servants engaged by the half year,) I ibould not feel in the least surprised to find, that of a hundred men employed at it, ninety were Irish; and mdeed the Irish are considered to work at least at well, and certainly work a great deal chei^Mr than Scotsmen ; tbey cao lire cheaper, and several things which a Scotchman or an Englishman ieels to be indispensable to bia comfort «i Irishman can do very well without. As for the manniicturmg nterest, of coarse the cheaper the market for labour, the better. 176s. Your answer is confined, n it not, to the feelings of fhe hadholders ; what is the feding of the natives of that part of Scotland mm which you are connected, with respect to tbe Irish? — I have nc doubt there is a conskleratiie degree of jealousy entertained, becaoae tbey find then- wages lowered by the influx of strangers ; they find themselves driven oat of a considerable range of employment. 1763. Do you consider that to be an unreasonable jealousy on the part of the laboirfers? — I do aot think it is unreasonable. 1 764. If it be reasonable, can it be consistent with the interest of tlie landholders, tiiat the native population should be driven out of the country, and that all the other evils obvKNis from such a slate of thui^ should fall upon them? — I think that the landholders have reason upon the whole to regret that the influx of strangor* is quite so treat In ordinary times it is all well, but when such a stag- nation of manufacturing employment takes place as took pUce last year, the enor- mous number who may be thrown on parish support would bear very hard upon the landholders, when it is considmd that it has latdy been declared by the supreme court of Scotland as the law of the land, that an Irishman has all the n privileges of a native in acquiring a legal parish settlement, entitling bim to claim 550* Aaa as J.CttnifttU, 34 March, 1837. ^i^.: > :i V. ■i i8S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTKE A. CtMj^n, Efq. 14 March, 1817. %- as matter of right to be maintained out of the poors funds, by three years industrial residence. 1 765. The Committee are, then, to understand you to say, that notwithstanding the claims which you state an Irish pauper labourer has upon parochial assistance aa well as the Scotch native labourers, notwithstanding, the fact that the proprietors of the county of Renfrew have contributed in the course of the last year 5,000/. for the purposes of charity, and notwithstanding that relief has been poured into the county of Renfrew by charitable subscriptions to a very great extent from other quarters, yet the landed interest on the one hand and the manufacturing interest oa the other of that country, consider the advantage to be derived from cheaper labour so great, that they would rather be saddled with this excess of populaUon tbaa undergo an expense, admitted to be small compared with the chaMy alone, to ^t rid of the permanent effect of it ? — I do not attribute to these parties that precise reasoning which the question includes. I am not sure if the remedy would be deemed permanently efficient, and probably the recurrence of the disasters recently experienced may not be experienced in any such terrific extent ; but I think that on general grounds the Scottish landowners would be disposed to object to any thing that bears the appearance of a permanent poor's rate for able-bodied men, under any circumstances. 1 766. When the Committee speak of %. permanent rate of a thousand pounds a year for 60 years, they are speaking of a sum of 20,000 /. at the present moment, under the idea that itwoald be more convenient to the county to produce in that way a definite objec^()«ltt to saddle themselves with such an expense at onc'or at a short period ; but > estate was found ,^ to have claims against between fifty and sixty oth^r receii^iy bankrupt estates ; a . sufficient proof of the distress that has affected the manufai;turiug interest in that part of the country. 1767. You have observed, that the gentbnen of the county of Renfrew would consider this as a national object rather tbin a local one, but the gentlemen of the county of Renfirew, under the assumed circumstances, would be called upon t* furnish only one-third of the expense necessary to accomplish this object; 6u,ooo/. would accomplish the emigration of 5,000 persons; ^erefore th(B pro« position is, that if the county of Renfrew either advanced 20,000/. at once, or, ^. preferring to spread the expense over e greater number of yeav, on the principle that posterity should share the burthen which should produce ah advantage to Q. them, would raise the 20,000/. "on a long annuity of sixty years; in point of fact the case would stand thd^, that for the purpose of removing 5,000 persons^ under the removal of which, by the terms of the proposition, the county is to be released from all claim upon its charity, and all redundancy of population, the State would furnish the means of adding 40,000/. to the 2u,ooo/. so proposed to be raised from the county ? — It may seem a reproach upon the county of Renfirew for me to say, but I do really feel it necessary to say, in answer to the question, that I do not believe the county of Renfrew would willingly submit to anft county rate of that description, that they could possibly resist Setting aside all con- «ideration respecting the source of the evil, and the permanency of the cure, the Committee ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 189 'Committee will remember that, in common with other Scottish counties, we are very Jitde acquainted with such poors rates as prevail in England ; and with regard to the county of Renfrew, though very considerable as a commercial and manu- facturing county, it is but of small extent. The rent-roll of the landholders is by no means in proportion to its coninercial or manufacturing importance. A county rate of 1,000 /. a year is greater than the whole land tax that the county of Ren- frew pays. 1768. Are the Committee to understand that the same observation would apply, if the expense was 500/. a year instead of a thousand?— I really believe so, a* the objection would be founded upon principle as well as upon mere pecuniary Amount. 1 769. If thie Ate were fixed on real property only, the landholder would object ; if the rate were charged on real and personal property, the landholders and the capitalists would join in the objection ? — Yes. 1770. You are not enabled to hold out to the Committee any hope that the county of Renfrew, from a sense of its own interest, would concur in any contri« bution to the promotion of this ObjectPal am not; at least to any amount which ' the Committee would think at all material for the object in view. 1771. Do you concur in this observation, it is stated in a letter before tlie Committee, " Without 8ome change or mSdification of the law of parish residence, I do not see that any effectual encouragement can be given to Emigration : In the sprin^of 1 Sao, we sent out a number of well-doing people to Canada, but their housed were filled with Irish, who, as two or three familii%U| satisfied to accom- modate themsOTves with a house which only held a sinf^Vmily before of the old population, and as the Irish women are possessed of greater fecundity than the Scotch, producing generally about one-fourth more children than the latter, that is, their families counting six heads in place of five, we are infinitely worse off than ever : the Scotch operatives and labourers are taking the inroads made «pon them by those people much to heart, and the Emigrant Societies look to the Irish as the cause of their not getting away to America, by their preventing thow^ gentry from helping to pay for the expense of the emigrants, under the impressioa - Uiat the Irish will fill up the places of those whom they would otherwise assist to ^o to the British colonies:" do you concur in that reasoning? — I concur generally m that reasoning. It must immediately strike any man upon whose property such a tax is proposed to be laid, to ask of what avail is that tax to be ; it the recur- "^ rence of the emigration from Ireland, or other causes of distress, to be prevented. Unless some effectud preventive be given, there must be the greatest possible reluctance upon the pp^t of the landholders of Scotland to incumber their estates with an annual or other payment for the purpose of emigration. 1772. Do you believe that a body of Scotch gentlemen, whether landholders or manufacturers, would consent to charge themselves with a fixed certain burthen, upon the speculative hope that the cause of the present charge will nofrecur ? — I do not 1773. Are you aware that 'a the evidence received by this Committee from English parishes, an entirely contrary opinion has been* given; that the English parishes, without a single, exception (the proprietors in which, or the overseers of which, have been examined before the Committee) have expressed a readiness not only to charge their parishes to the extent of no I. but of 60/. for every poor family emigrated? — I have been informed of that, and I think that they are making a reasonable bargain ; but I think the situation of Scotland is very different, and that difference cannot be explained without adverting to the state of the Poor laws. 1774. You stated in the early part of your .evidence, that it would be a great benefit if those 5^00 persons could be removed ; Ibupposing that removal to. take place, and assuming that the county of Renfrew had agreed to incur the proposed burthen, could that remedy prove effectual, unless the means were presented of preventing the chasm so occasioned from being filled up ?— I think not, beyond a very limited period. The evil of an excessive influx of indigent Irish might be palliated by certain regulations, which it would not be very difficult to make; but I apprehend that the radical cure must be applied to the place where the evil original's ; I apprend that as long as Ireland remains in,i& present state, so long thert wnl be a great influx. i77i^ Accoraing to the present law of Scotland, is there any means of preventing the influx and the settlement of Irish poor, wherever tberei is a temptation for thetn to come?— Certainly nooe. 550- Aa3 1776. Is 34 March, 1817. «i •«M«rcfc, ill7. ;' i lii! 1 190 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 1776. It there not all the difference between England and Scotland in that respect, that there can be between a country overburt^ned with a •yatem of Poor laws, and a country ki which that lysten has a very mhigated and partial ope^ ration? — Certainly there is an immense difference between the state of the two countries in that respect 1777. And that which might reasonaUy be considered by the one country as • great relief, might be considered by the other as a precedent for the imposition of new and erievons burthens?— Certainly k m^ht prove a great relief to England, but a very dangerous precedent in Scotland, at least it would be universally so ntecmcd. 1778. Can you state shortly to the Committee what the Scotch law of settleoaent is, and how it applies in the case of the Irish ? — ^The Scotch kill of settlement is extremely simpie ; by that law any man who has his residence for three yean in < any Scottish parish, will thereby acquire a legal settlement, unless he or some of bia family have had recourse to begging for their support, or have been wholly or partially supported by charity during the course of those three years. 1779. If, then, a labourer from Ireland, or any other part of the King's dominion^ and not onl^ so, but from any foreign country, were to cone and estabtish himeelf in a parish m Scotland, and live there for three years witbont being known to be a b^ar, and without receiving any relief from the church money, or any other of the usual sources, he would be entitled to come opoo that fatm ^st as much as a native of that parish or of any part of Scotland ? — ^Aecordmg to a lale decision of the supn^ civil court of Scotland, that ia declared to be the law ; the point wu tried in'W case decided in 1 824, at the snt of one Hl|^;ins, an Lrisln nan, against the baroni^ parish of Glasgow. The case, as stated m the printed reports of the decisions of the Court of Session, ia this : The barony parish of Glasgow is one of tbe most popoloos in Scotland, and one of those in which an assessment for the poor has long prevailed. Tbe managers resolved to admit nu Irisfanaa upon the poor's roll, and that resohitioD was made the subject of complaint to tbe > Court of Session in the name of Higghns, wbo had resided there for a good many years. The judgment of the court was to this effect ; first, that tlie Court of Session have a controlling power in soch cases ; and in tbe second |riace, that the plaintiff in that case, from having had an industrial residence fur more than three years in the parish, had acquired a te^l settlement against the poors rates, just as If he bad been ■ native Scotchman. And indeed the principle of the judgment was expressly held to apply ten foreigners in general. 1 780. Was that case appealed to the Hoose of Ixmb ? — It, was not. 1781. And it stands now as the declared law of Scotland? — ItdoeSk 1783. What means are afibrded by the law of Scotland of transferance, or, as it is called, of transportation oi poor from one parish to another within Scotland, from a pariah where they may have acquired a setllenieni, to tbe paridi of their bhthr— There is only one regulation in Scodand, respecting removals, and it applies only to vagrants ; it has no application to the ordinary poor, and indeed no practical operation at all. No person can, without bis own consent, be removed from one pariah to another in Scothind, nnless be be a vafrant beggar. 17S3. Supposmga person, a native of Scotland, residing iin a parish in wlriefa he was a stranger, to be in the habit of receiving charity there from the parish^ ahhoogh not in the shape of assessment money, is it ui the power of the pansh to icmove him to his own pnrisb? — It is not in the power of tbe parish to do soy 1784. Are there any nwansk however over-burthened the pariah nay be wi& Irish paupers, of removing them to Ireland ^— 'No legal compoisory SKans; and in our very limited law of removal (which is utterly ageless in 'practice) the ides of removal presupposes some other ph^e bound to receive and support the person removed ; removd to Ireland, therefore, ought to in^)ly that there are poors funds m that country, or at least sdne means by which those removed can be provided for, and prevented from reluming. 1785. A magbtrate cannot order them out of the parish? — He cannot. 1786. It has been stated in the evidence of Bir. Campbell, the Member for Renfrew, that during the last year a nmnber of Irish were sent from tba^part of the country with merely a loaf, and a few shillings in their pockets; by what mithority were those persons removed ?— That was done, not by legal, but by moral compulsion, if it was by compulsion at all* The Irish are probably either ignorant of their legal claims, or distrustful of having these acknowledged ; and flseny ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSay. 191. many bave no legal daim, because they have gained no legal settlement They .were very glad to have the mean* of removal from a country where tiiey could ^ct no employment 1787. As long as the law and circumstances of Scotland remain what they are with reapect to the impossibility of preventing the influx and settlement of the numerous banda of Irish that come there, do vou conceive that any Emigration, bowever desirable on other accounts, and however desirable as a means of tem- porary relief, would afford any permanent relief to that country ? — I do not believe that it would aflford any permanent relief. A temporary relief I certainly think it would afford, for it is not in on« month, nor perhaps in one year, that the vacuum «ould be filled up by persons able to do the work of those who had gone away ; but I have not tbe least doubt, that the moment the labour market is drained to a certain extent, and the wages of those remaining, raited, every weaver, instead of endeavouring to send his sons and daughters to some other employment, will avail himself of tneir labour in his own trade; and as the business of a common weaver is not very difficult to learn, there arises id the course of two years a new genera- tion of weavers ; and from the same cause, those Irish who happen to be weavers of cotton or linen goods in Ireland, and who may hope for better wages in Scot- land, would have the strongest temptation to come over. I understand that a linen' weaver would not find any great difficulty to overcome in learning to weave cotton goods. 1788. Do you conceive it would be in the power of the landed proprietors to check'the coming in of the Irish labourers, by refusing to allow them to have resi- dences and cottlges, were they so minded? — ^That b a subject which I feel to be one of eitreme difficulty. There are certainly, however, some expedients which may be adopted without difficulty or without any violation of any established or &ir principle. Let it be enacted that a longer period of years is requisite for an Irishman or a foreigner to acquire a leg^l setUement than for a native ; and perhaps in addition to tbt extension of the period, there might be a qualification added, that the residence should have been io the capacity of hotueholders ; because when iiunilies of poor Irish come over, it is a long tinoe before they get a house ; they crowd great numbers together into lodgings, usually paying the rent by the week or fortnight ; to Scotsmen, whether landowners or not, (for we all pay poor-rates in assessed parishes) it will appear very bard that being a lodger in such circum- stances, in a state bordering on beggary, should suffice to confer a full legal settlement 1789. How do those poor Irish who come over, contrive to nourish themselves at first ? — ^Tliey have generally some friends or relations, who perhaps invite them to come over. 1790. What food do they eat chiefly? — PotatoeN of course, and other cheap food ; it is surprising how little they can do with. I am quite certain, from wtiat I bave been with my own eyes, that some of them can do without any thing which deserves the name of furniture or bed clothes, and I suppose the clieapest food will suffice them. 1791. When they are in full employment, do they livii more like the people of- the country, or do they still persevere in the same way r — ^Tbey gradually assimilate to the people of the country, and they cause the people of the country io some degree to assimilate to them. They have no notion of that degree of expense which is essential to a Scotchman's comfort A Scotchman must be in a very degraded state who should not have decent clothes to appear at church on Sunday, or give his children education; but these things don't give much concern to the Irishman, at least for a considerable time. 1792. Under the relative circumstances of the two countries, what term of years do you think it reasonable to require for an Irishman to acquire a settlement in Scotland? — As a minimum, I should say seven years; and indeed that is the tferm of residence specified in some of our Scottish statutes on the subject of the poor. 1793' You tliink that that provision, coupled with the provision that he should be a householder, would afford a material relief? — I think it would operate as a check, and more especially if some precautionary measure could be devised to prevent ftispicious persons from gaining a settlement by residence, such as warning them to remove. 1 794. What is the law of Scotland with respect to affording parochial relief in circumstances where work cannot be found, setting aside the cases of the aged, the 550. A a 4 diseosed. 04 Mucb, 1837. 1 A. Cmfitll, •4 March, 1887. n 19a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE diseBved, the bUnd, and so on, the question beini; confined to such cases as arise when work cannot be obtained? — I presume the Committee is awnrc how ex- tremely similar the early Scottish enactments upon that subject are to the early English, and how very different their practical operation has been. Our leading statute was passed in the year 1579, and it confined parish relief to persons de- ■cribcd as " aged, poor, impotent and decayed persons, who of necessity must live by alms ;" and in the practice of Scotland, parisli relief has hitherto been confined to that description of persons, and 1 believe it was never heard of until the be- ginning of the present century, when an universal scarcity of provisions prevailed' in Scotland, when in one of the southern parishes an assessment was imposed partly at least for the relief of people whose wages were insufficient to procure the necessaiy supply of food, and who had no other claim ; I allude to the case of Pollock against Darling. In that case, an individual, who was assessed, resisted payment upon the ground that there was no law existins in Scotland by which any such assessment could be imposed for the support of able-bodied men ; the supreme court decided that the cssessment was valid. But I believe this has never been regarded as a sufficient precedent to settle the general question ; and among other reasons for this opinion, the claim was not at the instance of a person assert- ing his right to aid from the poors rate, but a question between one inhabitant of the parish, and the managers for the poor who had assessed him. A more recent and important case arose out of the commercial and manufacturing distresses of iSig, in the Abbey parish of Paisley, in which upwards of eight hundred able- bodied workmen (such as the persons who are now petitioning to be carried to Canada) applied for subsistence from the parish rates ; and the managers for the poor having refused to give that relief, as being a precedent of extreme danger, the claimants presented an application to the sheriff of the county, for the purpose of having the claim made effectual. The sheriff decided that they had a legal claim ; and the question being .appealed to the supreme court, I have reason to know that it was deemed of great importance to prevent that question from being tried upon its merits, and to oppose it upon a preliminary objection in point of form, namely, the competency of the sheriff's court to review or control the reso- lutions of the managers for the poor. The result was, that the Court of Session decided that although the Scottish Acts of Parliament, in various' instances coil'- nected with the Poor laws, imposed a superintending duty upon the sherifll, the sheriff had no such control as had been assumed; so that the case vi^as dismissed,, and the question never was tried upon its merits. The circumstances of the manu- facturing districts changed, and the funds of the claimants being exhausted, the case went no further. 1795. Then the apprehension that weighed upon one of the parties in that case^ was, that if it came to be tried fairiy on its merits before the Court of Session, that court would probably act as it had done in the case of Pollock against Darling ? — I believe it was ; and I may add, that if the principle involved in that case were once established by an authoritative precedent, as applicable to the maintenance, total or partial, of able-bodied workmen demanding it as a legal right, then it seems to me beyond ail question that Scotland will be placed under the same tremendous burtban which England bears and has been struggling in vain to alleviate. • 1796. Do you conceive that in deciding the cose of Pollock agunst Darling, the Court of Session meant to confine itself to layins down the law in cases of general distress in the country, so that employment could not be found by the appTicantSi or that it only included cases of temporary and local distress ? — I really do not feel myself very competent to answer, as to the reasons which influencea the case of Pollock against Darling, my knowledge of that case being derived from the printed report, which I have not recently perused; but my understanding is, that the main question did not come direcdy.and fully before the court. ' 1797. Do you conceive that the efrect of that decision in the case of Pollock against Dariing was to go as far as a decision could go to establish this prin« ciple, that the incapacity of finding employment entitled a man to be put upon ■the poors roll in Scotland?— If it could be considered a sufficient precedent, it certainly does involve that principle ; but it does not go to say directly that the able-bodied poor man has a legal claim against the parish, it only goA to this, . which is a different thing, that if the managers of the poor, namely, the Kirk session, and the heritors or proprietors, (who as n sort of Parliamentary trust are' invested with the manifigemeni: of the poor and the power of assessing parishes) shall PEE ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSay. 19 3 I as arise how ex- he early r leading sons de- must live confined 1 the be- pre vailed' imposed I procure e case of , resisted by which men; the has never id among on assert- ibitant of ate recent tresses of ' Ired able- carried to rs for the le danger, le purpose id a legal reason to rom being n point of I the reso- of Session ances ceta* lerifis, the dismissed,. :he manu- the case that case^ ission, that )arling ? — case were tintenance, It, then it the same m vain to darling, the of general applicants^ >lly do not ed the case from the ng is, that of Pollock this prin« put upon recedent, it y that the ^ to this, the Kirk ntary trust ]g parishes) shall ■ball voluntarily admit such claims, a parishioner who is assessed will not b« pe r- mitted to object. 1798. In the case of Pollock against Darlins were not all the fifteen ju dges present, and the deciswn carried by a majority ofoner — I am not able at presen t to answer that question. 1799. You have slated, that if the step were once taken, of admitting able-bodi ed men as possessing a pood claim on the poors rates of Scotland, the condition of Scotland would be quite as bad as that of England ? — Nearly ns bad. 1 800. Would it not be even worse, inasmuch as personal property is rateab le to Ibe poor in Scotland as well as real property ?— I am not aware that that mak es it worse. 1801. Is not a person reskling in a parish in Scotland, where a rate exists, liable to contribute to the rate in consideration of his personal property wheiever situate, as well as his real property within the parish?— I believe tliere is at present no doubt at all how the law of Scotland stands in that respect ; and I may •tate, for the information of the Committee, that wherever an assessment is im- posed, (suppose a,oou/.) the law divides it into two equal parts, 1,000/. will be payable exclusively by that body whom in Scotland we are in the habit of calling " heritors," a term not always to be limited to the proprietors of land, for it may happen in some parishes, and it does happen in the Abbey parish of Paisley, in which I live, that the proprietors of houses pay and rank as managers of the poor along with the landholders, whom they greatly out-number, and of course can out-vote; the other half is assessed on the mhabitants at large, including those very heritors, according to the estimated ratio of their " means of substance " wherever situated, and not otherv/ise assessed for poor-rates. The Committee will understand that I am describing the mode of assessment in what are called " Land- ward" parbhes in Scotland, as distinguished from burgh parishes, in which last the mode of assessment is somewhat different. 1803. In regard to an early statute, as defining the periwns to whom relief may be given, already referred to, are you not aware that in a subsequent statute in 1663, there are words to this effect : " the persons unemployed, being masterlesa, and out of service, and not having wherewith to maintain themselves by their own means and work, are entitled to relief"? — I do not recollect particularly the import of that statute ; but the impression upon my mind is, that the terms referred to are not of general application, but directed to some special and probably tem|)orary object * 1 803. Supposing, for the sake of argument, it were admitted that an indiscrimi* nate poor-rate could by law be imposed in Scotland, is it not probable that, under the circumstances of distress and misery among the redundant able-bodied labourers in the county of Renfrew, continuing in future years unaided and unas- sisted by that extent of charitable contribution from other parts of the country which combined with the charity of Renfrew, estimated at five thousand pounds, which has supported them for the last year, it is not probable that a legal assess- ment would take place in the county of Renfrew for the maintenaii-'o of the able- bodied poor, in the same manner as in England? — If it be assi' i.<\! that the law were so declared, I have not the least doubt that in such a ytur a i%i6 the Kirk sessions and heritors would be disposed to relieve the distressed work- people by a geueral assessment or poor-rate ; and if there were no other reason, there is at least this very strong one, tliat voluntary contributions fall chiefly upon those who are in other respects put to the greatest expense, namely, the charitaUe, and that many individuals can find very good reasons for keeping their money in their pockets. 1804. Though you have no doubt there would be a disposition on the part of the self-taxing body in Renfrew to impose this assessment, under the supposed circumstances of continued distress, th^y would have to exercise a discretion whether they would or not ; and in point of feet, there vrauld be no abstract means, under tlie luw of Scotland, to force theui to do it, if they were of opini9n that it was inexpedient to give relief to the able-bodied labourer?— I would express my confident opinion, that if the power of assessing parishes for the indiscriminate support of all who happened to be in poverty, from fluctuations in employment or otherwise, in Scotland, it would be not only the intt.^st of the landholders in par- ticular, but of Scotland at large, that it should, so far as regards able-bodied men, be entirely discretionary, and such a» vested no legal claims in those objects of it. I have thought in seasons of distress io Renfrewshire, such as the years 550> Bb 1816 A. Ctmr**H, •4 March, 1 147. 194 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE OEFOUE SELECT COMlflTTeB 4. CtmpUn, ■4 March, ili7. .%- ¥ # iSl6 and 1819, u well «s 1836, that it mi^ht b« desirable to vcit the minaseri of the poor with a diicretionory pjwer to asses* the whole parish for the relief of the general distress ; but I certainly think we ounht to be most careful of treating such relief aa a matter of legal right in the claimant. The tendency of such % measure, humane as it seems, would soon appear. The salutary warning which the coune of nature gives, in connecting distress with improvidenc« and vice, and the utility of saving banks and friendly societies, would bo materially counteracted ; and the effects, especially in a manufacturing district, would be debasement of moral feeling ond depreciatiai of real property. It may not be unimportant to add, that the debasement of which I s|)eak has, in my own experience, mads alarming progress, and chiefly from the immoderate appetite which prevails tor spirituous liquors, and the excessive, and in my mind destructive facility with which licences for retailing spirits can be obtained in Scotland by persons who have no other recommendation than that which ought rather to exclude them, vii. their poverty and unfitness for other empbymenl. If habits of providence are so pecu- liarly necessary amidst the fluctuations incident to commercial and manufacturing pursuits, the Committee will judge how far such habits are discouraged ; and what a large deduction must come from the wages of labour, when I state, that, as com- pared with tlie population, the number of licensed houses will show that every twentieth family in Renfrewshire keeps a public house, and by necessary conse- quence, th almost every working man is subjected to constant temptation, by having sou. "iation, some intimate acquaintance, or some next-door neighbour, who keeps u ii, ,iling house. 1 805. Admitting, then, for the sake of argument, that in consequence of some future decision, the law of Scotland, as laid down in the case of Pollock against Darling, were solemnly affirmed, that would lead to a state of thingi in which the redund'int poor having a legal claim upon parochial assessments, in the county of Renfrew for example, the indisposition which you have stated to exist to tax the county for the purposes of emigration would then be reduced to a consideration of comparative pecuniary interest, involved between paying tliis legal rate, which could not be avoided, and contributing .owards the expense of emigration ; yoa have already remarked that in England yoa understand that it may be a good bargain to the parish to pay 60 /. for the getting rid of a labourer's family, which appears to cost the parish 25 /. a year ; admitting that the principle of the judg- ment alluded to was affirmed, do you think the same permanent objection would exist in the county of Renfrew to the proposition of charging emigration on the county rate, which under existing circumstances yon think would practically occur ? — If it were solemnly determined to be the law of Scotland, that an able- bodied man who could not find employment were entitled os a legal claim to de- mand support from the parish, we should then be precisely, or very nearly, on tlie tame footing as England; of course what now appears to be surrounded with objections of the most formidable description, would then come to a mere con- sidcration of comparative advantage or disadvantage in commuting one burden for another. 1806. If in 1819, the Court of Session, instead bf getting rid of the question of the merits in the Abbey parish case, and disposing of it on the point of theslierilTs jurisdiction, had affirmpd the decision of the sheriff, what would have been the eflect of a final judgment, so affirming the claim of able-bodied men in Scotland on the poor-rate ? — It appears to me that the effect of such an affirmation would be this, we should just have the same extent of claims, with all their injurious consequences, that exist in England, with this difference, so far as I understand any thing of the practice in England, that in ScotI .nd the assessment will be imposed by the persons, or chiefly by the persons on whom the burden of payment principally falls, which 1 believe is not the case in England. But as an off-set for that advantage, we should be more exposed to such claims, because, the conditions on which a legHl>settlemeiit in Scotland is acquired are simple and easy, compared with those wiiich I under- stand to Jie established in England. 1 807. Did not the decision of the sheriff of Renfrew confirm the claim of 825 able-bodied men P — In effect it did so. I wish it to be understood that the judg- ment referred to was not given by me, as is usually the case in the first instance ; it was given by a gentleman of much higher attainments, Mr. Dunlop, the pfincipat sheriff, whose usual province it b to review my judgments when parties are dis- satisfied. I was at that period much engaged in the management of voluntary contributions for indigent work-people, and too much in contact both witti them % i' and EE inaffera elief of retting •uch • ( which ce. and ruled ; nent of rtant to ), made ails for h which have no >ii. their BO pecu- racturing ind what as com* lat every y conse- ktion, by Bighbour, ) of soni« if against which the county of ) tax the eration of te, which tion; yoa « a {(ood ily, which the judg- ion would un on the iractically ; an able* lim to de- ly, on the nded with mere con- burden for []ue8tion of he slierifTs 1 the effect ind on the lid be tliis, isequcnces, ling of the le persons, alls, which , we should settlement h I under- aim of 8a5 It the judg- t instance; le pt'incipat ties are dis- f voluntary with them and ON EMIGRATION FtOM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1897. 19s ■nd the uMiMKen for the poor to make it desirable for me to judge in the question, nd I remieited the sheriff to do so. 1808. You have stated, thai l\t7 «pp)M io SeotlaiKl to no otiicr inttrument. And iwrlwpa I nwy with propriety firther mention, that complaint*, in the courM of my lwenly ever under what denomination those employed by him may pass, for journeymen or work-people engaged on any terms from a distance will just have the same rights and the same effect as if they had been indented apprentices. It is very clear that whenever a per'od of good trade and high wages occurs, there is an immediate inflax of workers, some, of them young men betaking themselves to that trade as a permanent means of subsistence ; and when a reverse comes, some portion of that influx may be thrown upon the parish us persons who have acquired a legal settlement therein; but as already mentioned, if they are able-bodied persons, their claims would bo resisted as matter of right, and their relief must depend on volun- tary oontribution. l837« Do you consider that, supposing Emigration to be an adequate relief at the present moment, any security can be devised against the recurrence of an rS7. f . 198 MINUTUS OF £VID£NCE fi£FOU£ S£L£CT COMMITTEE of fometbing alarming, from great numbers being out of woric, will be sufficient to produce any renewed general contribution. 1831. You are really of opinion that there is not any great probability of a state of distress, such as you can call alarming, taking place at that period? — No, I think not. 1833. Then, in point of fact, as you are of opinion this distress is lessening, you oiust admit that the removal of a comparatively small number of families would mitigate the distress?— I think that the removal of a very small number just now will produce a greater effect than the removal of a much greater number three months ago. 1 833. Then iit bettering the wages of those that remain, removal will be better just now than three months before or after?— Three months ago there were mul- titudes of ttblc-bodied weavers unemployed, now there are few of that class without some employment; but the wages of all, except the silk weavers, are low, and their means are too much exhausted, by previous distress, to enable them to encounter any farther stagnation of trade that might occur. This being their condition, I think that if any thing is to be done by Emigration, for improving that conditon, it would be of importance to them that it should be done at the present ratlier than at a future time; for they have been all counting upon the probability of getting themselves sent out to Canada at this time; and I believe in many instances they have abstained from securing houses for the ensuing year, and many of them live in the houses of landlords who are not at all averse to get^quit of tenants who pay them uothing. 1 834. Therefore you are clearly of opinion that prior to th^- ' . .,, of May will be the most advantageous period for commencing any experiment of this sort? — I am clearly of opinion that prior to the term of removal, which is the 15th of May old style, it would be most advantageous to carry into effect any project of emigra- tion which may be deemed expedient. 1835. Have the goodness to state whether the relief which you now give to the poor in your neighbourhood has not very much diminished during the last week? — Our total expenditure, since the 22d day of February, has been 470/.; and the number of families now on the county committee list is 936, whereas the average for the previous period was 2,030 families, and the highest number at any time since the distresses began in Spring 1826 was 2,725 families. The proportion of Irish families has been about one-fourth ; but if those who applied for a free passage back to Ireland be included, the proportion will exceed one half of the whole number upon the county fund. I am informed by a gentleman in Glasgow, conversant in such matters, that the proportion of Irish applicants in that city was considerably greater; but the distress in Glagow was by no means so severely felt as in Paisley, where the great bulk of the population consists of opera- tive manufacturers, and where the number of capitalists and the wealth is inferior in a very great degree. 1 836. If an Irishman had ' resided three years continuously in Glasgow and obtained a settlement, and then went to Ireland for five years and came back again, would his settlement at once revive ? — That is a doubtful point, as I con- ceive. 1837. Supposing a Scotchman absents himself from Scotland at any time, his settlement is in the last place |irhere be has continuously resided for three years, k it not ? — It is. 1 838. Would not that apply to any other person who gained a settlement in the same manner as a Scotchman did? — Certainly. 1831^. Therefore an Irishman having gained a settlement, and absenting him- self for a time, can again regain a settlement? — If an Irishman resides fully three years in a parish in Scotland, and then goes away to Ireland, and remains absent for a year or two, and then he comes back again and takes up his residence in another part of Scotland for a period less of three years, he will have acquired no right from his last residence, fiut as a matter of opinion, I should say that he had a right, in case of poverty, and in case of- having gained no mtermediate settlement elsewhere, to recur upon the place of settlement which he had gained in Scotland. 1 840. Can the parish remove those persons who will be turned out of their houses in the month of May, if they are destitute of a place to go to? — They certainly cannot. 1 84 1 . Do you conceive that the case of Pollock v. Darliog decides more than this : toat ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 199 that if the Kirk seuion and heritors, a body legally entitled to make a poor's rate, do make a rate for the support of able-bodied persons, tlieir authority nill he sup- ported by the supreme court against persons refusing to pay?— I liave already stated as well as 1 could, that so far as I have heard, the decision referred to has not been regarded as a precedent of much authority ; it is a single decision, and does not set the question at rest. 1842. Supposing it a precedent entitled to full authority, does it decide more than that if a voluntary rate is made by the Kirk session and heritors, that rate will be supported by the supreme court r — Certainly there is no decision on any further point, but there is a further principle assumed, because if a man lias no right to make an assessment, he has no right to make another pay jt. ' 1843. Do you conceive there is any legal authority for the claim made as of right by able-bodied persons? — I regard the claim of an able-bodied person as an undecided case. I believe it is different in England, but in Scotland a single decision of the 8)^>reme Scottish court is not as a matter of course held to settle the law in a manner that may not be altered by another decision, given perhaps in a case more favourably circumstanced for trying an abstract point of law. 1844. I^he case of the Abbey parish does not decide more than that the sheriff has no power to review the decisions of the Kirk session and heritors as to relief? — It certamly decides no more. 1 845. Therefore the sheriiTB decision bas no more weight than as his individual opinion ? — It has no more. 1846. As Scotchmen get no settlement in Ireland, would it not be equitable to withhold it from Irish settlers in Scotland, to prevent the Scotch settlement tersons had been in a country parish where there was no police and no power, t.:or ^ persons could have been induced to leave that parish if it bad not been their own wish and choice ? — They could only be removed by their own wish and choice, but this was exactly what was done in Paisley. The Irish feel that their residence and their claims are regarded with great jealousy, and they are probably either ignorant of the decision in the case of Higgins in the year 1824, or doubtful if it would be of avail to them ; and such was the want of employment, that a free passage to Ireland, where they might be better, was^heir own choice. I apprehend that any parish who chose to suy. You may go baclv to your own country or stay here without relief) might find the same effects to follow. 1 848. In the event of a cotton mill failing, and any large number of persons being suddenly thrown out of employment, they could not be removed by a person paying the rate ? — If they have been resident for three years, there is no power to remove them. 1849. .Although this question may, in substance, have been put to you before, the Committee are anxious to put it again in a more specific manner; supposing that the present redundant paupers of Renfrew could be removed from that county in consequence of every other county adjoining being utterly unable to give them cniploymeiit, and supposing that all assistance from charity was limited to the county of Renfrew itself, would there, in your opinion, be any difference in the situation of the county of Renfrew now, and the situattion of the county of Renfrew under the system of Poor laws, provided that charity on the one hand induces the inhabitants of the county not to allow any to perish for want of food entirely, maintaining them at the lowest possible quantity of food that can keep liuman existence alive, and on the other, supposing that under a compulsory poor-rate subsistence was limited by precisely the same terms, namely. Just enough to keep a person alive ; do you consider, under the terms of this proposition, that there would be any difference in the situation of the county of Renfrew under those cir- cuuistances, though in the one instance the expense would fall upon the charitable, and in the other would fall uponihe proprietors landed and personal property? — In so extreme a case as that supposed, where the consequences must l)e starvation «nd disease, and probably disturbance, the danger comes home to every man's dour, and extraneous aid being excluded, self-preservation would doubtless super- sede all other considerations, and induce the inhabitants at large to contribute to avert or alleviate such evils ; and the only difference which I conceive between the two cases of voluntary charity, and compulsory, will be in favour of the latter A. Campitll, Etq. <4 Mitrcb, 1827. 550. Bb4 mode. i ..,1 A. CampMI, Esq. fl4 March, 1837. ^ 1 f i i' Tjl ' 't ;'f' 1 .fr 1 . 5 ii V Sir Htnry ParntU. 37 March, 1827. Vol. 4. p. 483. HI i M * Sapp. Encye. Bii* Unniea, vd« 8. 9.333. t ' ,' k k aoo MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE mode, because il would operate more equally, whereas the other would fall to» exclusively on the humane. But I have already stated that a difference of opinion exists respecting Emigration, ^nd that many will be disposed to olupct to that remedy, n6t only because they' may doubt the permanency of its effects, but be- cause they regard the evil as a national one, intimately connected as it is with the over-peopled state of Ireland ; and what passed at certain county meetings several months ago, gave suiBciently strong indications that many landholders will con- sider it hard to pay a local tax to remdy such an evil, and especially as it involvea a dangerous precedent. I have, however, had no recent opportunity of ascer- taining the sentiments of the landholders on that part of the subject, not even ot those who are4|p6ber4 of this Committee, preparatory to my examination; and in what relates t6 opinion merely upon the political part of a subject so important (upon which, owing to peculiar circumstances, I found myself unable to derive that benefit which would have been desirable from the views of others, subsequent to receiving the unexpected order to attend this Committee) I would express my wish that the Committee would rather look to the facts which I have stated, than to any immature or speculative opinions which, with much diffidence, I may have given ia answer to the questions put to me by the Committee. Martist 27* die Martii, 1827. [Sir Henry Pamell, Bart, a Member of the Commiltee, made the folkming Statement:] STATEMENT delivered in by Sir Hemy Pamell, on the Population of Ireland. THE new Abridgement of " Philosophical Trihsactions" contains a papa-, written by Captain South, who made an enumeration of the people of Ireland, in- the year 1 695. By this it appears, that the population of Ireland amounted in that year to 1,034,102*. Captun South had the means of acquiring correct infor- mation on the subject, in consequence of his being at that time a Commissioner of the Revenue in Ireland, and of his having to carry into execution an Act for collecting a Poll Tax. In 1792, Dr. Beaufort computed the population of Ireland to amount to- 4,088,226. This calculation was made upon the number of houses contained ip the returns of the Hearth Money collectors. He allowed six persons to a house. According to the census made in the year 1821, Uie number of people in Ireland at Siat time, was 6,801,827. In several instances in which actual enu- merations have since been made, it has appeared that the numben contained in the census were less than they ought to have been. If Dr. Beaufort's calculation bad been made at the rate of five persons to a house, the number of people in Ireland in 1 792 would have been 3,406,865 ; and therefore, as there appear to be good reasons for supposing that Dr. Beaufort's estimate was too high, and the census of 1821 too low, it may not be far from correct to come to the conclusion,, that in the thirty years preceding 1821, the population of Ireland was doubled. The population of Ireland in 1821 being known, and also the rate at which it had increased up to thaj^me, it is not difficult to decide, with tolerable accu- racy, what the amount off^is at the present time. The immediate cause of the increase of population, is the excess of the births above the deaths; and the rate of increase, or the period of doubling, depends upon the proportion which the excess of the births above the deaths bear to the whole population. The exce . of births is occasioned by and in proportion to three causes; 1st, The prolificness of the marriages; 2d, The proportion of the born which lives to marry; 3d, The earliness of these marriages, compared with the expectation of life. ^ Unless it can be shown that some checks have arisen to the progress of population in Ireland since i8ai, that did not exist there before, it is reasonable to conclude that the increase of population has been going on at least at the rate at which it had gone on before 1821, that is, at the rate of doubling in thirty years. According to the Tables of Population, it appeal's that when the rate of increase is tliat of doubling in thirty years, the per-centage increase for ten yean will be 25 and 5-tenths, or 300,000 per million*; this will make the increased: popubtion jK : ON BMIGRATIOK FROM TH£ UN1T£D KINGDOM: iSa/. sot ^puhitkm in ten yMrt, from i8ai to 1831, a, 1 00,000, without adding the increase on eicbfei^'i inciease. So that the total population will, probably at least, amount in four yetu%aiore, that is in 1831, to above nine millions. The great Tncrease of population in Ireland has so much outrun the incre&se is Um) funds for e:nployihg it, as to occasion the almost universal prevalence of ths most squalid and abject poverty, and to justify an opinion, that a check to the further progress ot npulation has begun to have operation bv emigrations to Oreat Britain, :>r increased mortality, arising from the inability of the people to obtain such sup, .:, of>the coarsest and cheapest food as are necessai^ to support their existence. . ^ifc Although it may be difficult to obtain positive proof by e^ppce, of any ot the foregoing conclusions, a great deal of light may be thrown upon the subject, by calling intelligent witnesses before the Committee, to state principles and facts connected with the causes of the prodigious increase of population in Ireland — the che||(8 that may have arisen to it, and the actual condition of the people, as to their means of subsistence, and as to the extent of disease and mortality. If it should appear that certain statements, which have lately been published, are true, namely, of numbers of people dying daily from the impossibilit^i of obtaining subsistenos, the excess of population must be so great, as to make it hopeless to establish' security and tranquillity in Ireland, or to prevent England and Scotland from being overrun by Irish labourers by any ordinary means. Under such circumstances, a case will be established, to show the necessity of the interference of the Lef^lature : The grounds will be laid to justify and call for the carrying on of Emigration from Ireland, on a large scale, at the public expense.; and also )hr such measures as will make sure of preventing the vacancies occasioned by it, fiboi being filM up. .^!. ■•♦ '■ [A. C. Buchanan, E»q, being again caUed in, ddiva'cd in the following Paper; and the tame wa* read:] SPECIFICATION of Rations of Phovisions, and other matters, to be furnished Emigrants ; witli the Prices at which they will be charged, and on repayment again credited, giving option to Emigrants to ^ve the Cash. • FotL Rations ; I i lb. of Flour t . . Pork a 02. of Molasses or Sugar 2 id. 2 i J Theie we the price* at tlw Settlement. Sid- per day. For man, wife, and 3 children, three rations, at 15}^. per day, for 450 days, are - - - - I Deduct, cow's milk - • ,29 1 10 10 7 7 Probable Prices of Provisions at Montreal : Flour - ^6 - • C.\ Beef - j'g . . • 3 Pork • - 13 to 16 - a Indian Meal - 3 1 - - W. I. Sugar , - - a 5 6 per barrel 7 3 — >9 6 — »4 10 — 15 - per cwt Sir Htwrf famtU. •7 Marcb, 1837. % A. C. Buekanan, Ecq. £.28 - - S^t knowing the exact lituations in which locations may be made, t^.^ ca«t of trantport cannot be now reckoned on; but I preiume the pricei diarged for the daily rations will cover it. N. B. Under the head of Flour, I include such other farinaceous food as ~ might be thought advisable t* substitute occasionally; and during the winter months, the allowance of meat might be changed for fresh Beef, which would . be a small saving, as it would be hM for about 1 ( Lieut. Thonuu Charles fVhlte, again called in ; and Examined. Ucot. u T. c. lyutt. ,m-_ ': 1850. TH^ifiofflmittee understand you wish to correct some part of your evidence?— Wir 1851. You allude to your answer to Question 459? — My answer to that qoesdon is merely an assent to a general proposition, it ought not therefore to be considered as having any application to the actual state of the Cape. There are also some other alterations which I wish to make in explanation of my aniweHto question 1460: I beg to observe, that being quite sure that it was not my intention to static, " that the tendency of the supply of produce was tu become redundant" under existing circumstances, I conceived the question to involve a supposititious case only like the one that preceded it, and the first part of ray answer was given under that impression ; the latter part of the answer applies to the real state of ttie colofij^ with respect to labour, and from that I conceive it would oppear to the Committee, that the supply of produce had not the least tendency at present' to bebome redundant With respect to the resources and capabilities of the colony, and to the advaotage* -which it derives from its geographical position for the supply of other couotrioa mth its productions, I beg to state that I perfectly concur with the Witnesses «^ have described them; but a residence in the colony of fj^H* years had taogj^qtie, ihat those natural advantages are not sufficient of themwives to insure success to the Emigrant who may venture his property in a farming Speculation there,' afad Idid not therefore feel myself at liberty to make any representation to the Conimittiee which had no better foundation than mere general principles, or the aMUmption of a total change in the system of administration. That a limited number of labourers would be gladly received by the colonists, I have not the least doubt; oo"' ^^'"^ I ^n^ hesib^tion in sa^ug, that the auccfisa of a portion of the pauper population of this country, if established there as small proprietors, would be equally certain, to the extent at least of an abundant sUpply of the necessaries of life ; and beyond this I did not feel that I should be justified in going in my evidence before the Committee. i If consistent vi'ith the forms and practice of the Committee, I respectfolly request that this explanation may be appended to }ny evidence, in order ^ ' obviatis any further misapprehension of its precise and limited application. The circumstance of my being called upnti to give evidence quite unexpectedly will, I trust, form a sufficient apology for the trouble I now occasion in endeavouring to cprrect its deficiencies. . ... . /-? w V*i^< ' Mf*. George Thompson, called in ; and Examined. Mr. Gtorge Tit-irpsun, I ', 'I, 1852. HAVE you had Appportuuity of reading the evidence givea by former Witnesses to tliis Committee, relative to Ei^igratlon to the Cape. of Ciobii Hope?-— Tliave hastily gone through them. ; 1853. ^ou are the author of a publicatioD that has latdy appeared, eiititlra, '* Travels and Adventures in Southern Africa, by George "niotdpson, Eiq.. eight years a resident at the Cape; comprising "a view of tlie preseiit state of the Cape, with observations on the prospects of the British Emigrants*?— Yes. 1854. Do you gen^lly concur in opinion with the -witnesses as to the point, of ^he' settlers being disposed to pay back at the rate of 3/. per annum the expense of the Emigrants who may be introduced there ^ labourers to • certain extent ?— Yes, ,1, do, generally. 1855. Do you feel any doubt there will be any practical difficulty in making tjiat arrangement, provided that the number of labourers does not exceed the real demand for labour at the Cape ? — I have no doubt of it. 1 856. Is there much uhgranted land in the country which, iq yQur Qpinipn, if Ai,vourable for cultivation by European labourers?— Yes, there is, 1857;' Have ■■J. ,-.•' li'r* >'.• yoof iption'of « \ point, of 9 expense xteht?— tking tjiat il demand pinion, i* 57; Ilave O)^ EMIGRATION FROM I'HR UNITED KINGDOM: 18x7. 303 ' 1857. Hfev« you lay iMenlion of returning to the Cope at an early period?— I lia»e. ^ i^S^-.Jwy**^ of opinion, in case of a supply ef labourers proportioned to the -wants of the colonies being sent to the Cape, that a great number uf European kbourers would be ultimatdy employed in the colony ? — I have no doubt of it. 1859. You are acquainted with the detail of the arrangement, viz, that the emi- grant should receive 1 1. a day and be fed, and that he sliould enter into a bond with the settler, and that the settler binds himself to pay 3 /. a year, which is une-fourth more than what he pays the labourer, to the Gov<> rnment, as un annual instalment for the repayment of the money advanced ?-> Yes. «j^ ^ i860. Arc you of opinion that it would be more expedient ttiiift#all those emi- grants, when they land in the country, should be bound to the Government and let out to the colonists upon those terms, rather than that the colonist should put him- self in relation with the emigrant ?<^1 think it would be very desirable to be bound out by the GoveMiinent; they would conceive they would be better supported, and ,the master would have more dependence upon the contract. , . .1861. Have you ever known any instanc? of an arrungement of this sort having isucceeded ^<-^I am not aware of any at this moment. ' 186a. Are ^ou of opinion that the present exports of the Cape of Good Hope may be mo&^jj^aterially increased under circumltancea of labour being rendered cheaper by the introduction of emigrants? — I am. - 1863. Will you shortly explain to the Committee to what product you rtfer, and to what markets, as absorbing those products ? — ^The present articles of produce -are, wines, ostrich feathers, hides, ivory, tallow, skins, gum and aloes, and salted provisiona } the articles of cotton and silk might he intrmluced, if labour was more reasonable; and com might be exported, although that has not taken place for some time. ; r- .;/r 1864. Ybu have stated m^^om publication, p. 41a, that the wool of European ,(^p. appears to have degenerated ; have you any subsaquent information as to the result of later experiments to improve the quality of tlie wool at the Cape of Good Hope, or are all the districts equally unfavourable ? — t have no doubt it will succeed in the district of Graaifreinet, and in Albany also. 1865. Have you had an opportunity of forming any decided opinion as to the cultivation of silk ? — I have had some communication with the British and Irish Colonial Silk Company, and I am in hopes they will establish a party immediately, to proceed there. 1866. Can you inform the Committee as to the prospect of any extensive market opening fdr wheat to the Brazils, Mauritius, or any other country ? — The Mauritius, Saint Helena, Brazils, and even Cape Town fur Albany produce ; this country also presents a mvket for corn. 1867. Are you of opinion that in any part of th6 interior of the Cape district, cotton could be cultivated with advantage?— I have no doubt it might be, with great auccess.^ 1 868. By Europeans ? — Yes. %.« 1869. Has your attention been particularly turned to tlie detail of alt those articles ? — Not those latterly mentbned ; but I know the Quarter where the cotton has been tried, and has succeeded to their expectations, only cbe labour is too expen- ^ve for the cultivation of it. ••^ ' 1870. You have stated, that in your opinion th^toltivation of wool might be made a very profitable cultivation at the Cape, under due management ? — No doubt pfit 1871.. What number of pauper emigrants, as labourers, do you think the Cape could absorb, without the danger of overstocking it ? — I should think five or six hun- dred might be sent the first year, judging from the readiness with which Mr. Ingram got rid of his people, when they arrived m the colony. 1872. When you say five or six hundred, what proportion of women and children do tqu calculate P^-A third or a fourth of womm and children, or a half: 1873. You are acquainted with the general result of the Emigration of i8ao?-i- Yes. 1874. Although it may not have answ^d sonte of the capitalists who emiMrked fa it, do you consider it has .answered to the poor population that belong to it f — Entirely so, b^ond all expectation ; I hold in my hfmd documents that will show that. . 55* Cc a 1875. Have * Mr. Ottrgt Titom p i M . a; March, ila;. ■^\. +' { 1 wt. €iitrg$ Tiom pu m. ■7 March, ttv/. * #. m »>• 804 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE > 1875. Hftve yoo io your hand the documcnlt, ahown^n dcuU the MC««fi of the di^rent p*up«r aetllers at that period ? — 1 have. 1876. lathatin Albany?— Yea. 4- 1877. The Committee aee one peraon there alated to poaseu 200 btad of cattWi have you the meana of knowing whether that peraon came out aa a pauper i—r 1 believe without any meana whatever, aa many othera, cloth-weavera, tailora, ahoe* makers, and othera, are in poeaeaawn of from a amall number up to 400 head of cattle at thia moment. 1878. Have any of the aettlera grown wheat with aucceaa? — ^No, the mat having atUcked the CN^w for the firat two or three yeara, it has not been ao much at- 4ended to. «. ' 1870. Have they grown wheat aince with more success ?— 1 have not ascertainetl In the fast two years, whether they have or not. 1880. Have you bad an opportunity of g^mining the details ^ven in of lh« expense at which it would be necessary to locatfe the paupers at tbe Cape ?•— I have obaerved it, and I think it is very near correct. 1881. Have you any doubt wbateve|that if a pauper were located at the Cape, in the manner stated by preceding witnesses, that at the end of seven years he would be able to pay, without the slightest difficulty, at the rate of 3/. per. annum as interest upon the money advanced to bim ? — With the greatest ea8e,Ahave no doubt. • 188a. State your ground for that opinion r— I refer generally to those docu- inents, and they will show that some of the paupers sent from Nottingham are doing well, and in possession of considerable property ; I allude to them particu* Jarly, because they were paupers, Thf^fmper I have m my hand will illustrate my meanmg. *• ■ • .r [Tlie mtneu detmered in the foUaa^ Paper :] Instances of individualf'success of the Emigrants of 1820, going out without capital, some as paupers. Now in po i i eni on vS . ^* * 95 head of catties* - 70 - d» 2 horses, 1 50 slieep and goats. *; • 1 00 head of cattle. 1 horse, 1 waggon, and 1 plough. U.K.' weaver ... 21 head of cattle, 25 sheep and goats. L. M. d* > . - - 38 head of cattle, 1 waggon, 1 plough. ' 1 883. Did not some of the people from Nottingham return r-r- Yes, five of them; but while they were there they earned so much as to pay their passage home. 1 884. Was not there very great distress for a considerable period amqng those persons sent out in the year 1820 ? — I have no doubt there was considerable distress. 1885. For two years ormore ? — More perhaps. 1 886. Those paupers you allude to, did not give a good account of the settle^ nent r — No, it was on accobnt of the rust, but that has disappeared, and they were not at all acquainted with the localities of the country, 1 887. You spoke of the capabilities of the colony to produce cotton ; you limit that to some part only ? — It has been tried only in thie Cape district ; how it -will aucceed on the frontiers, or in Albany, I do not' know. l8i6. Has it been tried upon a large scale? — No, only in a garden or so. 1 889. The eastern' coast is the finest part ?— Yes. \- 1890.' Has it ever iieen attempted to cultivate tobacco? — Yes; but it is not Allowed to come to thiscountry, or we could supply nearly half the country. 1801. Is it grown to any extent ? -irYrt, for colonial consumption. 1893. When you say it is prohibftfid, you mean the duty is too high? - No, it is prohibited. ♦ 4 1 893. Do you export any tobacco ?-^No, I do not think we do. 1894. For how many years, has it been cultivated at the Cape? — Above 160 years or more among the Dutch ; every farmer cultivates for his own consumption, thfoiighout the colony. • -".a iS^v Is Trade. A. U. glass-cutter - C. D. umbrella-maker F. G. cloth worker I it ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. d05 .. i895i I* there ally <^M-tation of dried fruit from the Ceper— Yet. %Mi. To any eiient?— There it a coiwiderable supply tent to St. Helena and New Stoutl^JValtfs < and also the abipa from India, touching for tuppliet, carry otf centiderable%|uantitie8. , ; 1897. That dried fruit is very good of itt kind ?— Yea. . ^ . 1898. When did you leave the Cape?— Twelve months an>. ., 1899. What was the price of wheat per quarter, in Brilian money, at that time! —About 6«. or 74. the Winchester bushel ; it got up almost immediately after to io«. oria«. 1900. And yet you anticipate an export of wheat to this country ?— In due time^ when labour is more reasonable. 1901. Does not Ihe dearness of wheat arise from the dearness of labour? — Principally it does; but it is also owing to the restrictions upon the com, not ajlowing it to be exported when the{e,is the least idea of a short crop, and there ia 00 stimulus to the farmer to cultivate it. 190a. Haveyou ever engaged any persons to go from tliis country ? — No^ I am 1^ merchant in C^pe Town. ^ . _ 1903. In the case of indented labourers, do you apprehend there would be any difficulty in. enforcing the indentures? — I think not. *9<'4«^o you thmk the colonists would like to take the responsibility of enforcing the indcniure upon themielves? — I am nut able to answer that question ; I think Iwtter evidence has been given upon that subject 1905. What is your impression?—! think they would. .. I906. You think no discontent wcMild be created in the mind of the indented vmigrant, by the diflTerence between bis wasps and the wages of the free colonist?— That is to be considered ; the terms are in jv^our of tlie master. 1907. You think the master would have it amply in his power to enforce the indenture?— Yes. f.. 1908. Do you know the terms upon which indented li|)>ourers have been hitherto engaged ? — Mr. Ingram's men went out, and they had to refund, the males 33 L and the females, I believe, 15/. and the children 11/. 1909. You have stated, that persons going upon those terms have become in- dependent? — Many of Mr. Moody's men, who were ''taken oul at a previous time, have become in very good circumstances. 1910. Do you conceive that the same good fortune would attend persons who went out under the lower rate of engagement now proposed? — I have no doubt Pf «'• 1911. Their gains in the first year would not he the same, would they? — No, of course not. 1913. In the paper you have given in, as proving the success of the paupef emigrants, the Committee observe that almost all those persons stated to be suc- cessful are following particular trades?^ — Some' of them are; but there are other documents, which I nave given in. 1913. Have you any idea of the number of white inhabitants in the colony of the Cape of Good Hope ? — About 70,000. ' 1914. The blacks? — Hottentots, free blacks and slavtis, near 50,000. Mr. Richard l^''ebher Eaion, called in { and Examined.. .himKijit- ' 191 5* WILL you be good enough to explain to the Committee your connexion at the Cape of Good Hope? — I resided there as a merchant seven years ao4 a half. . 1916. When did you leave it?— In April last. ^^ 1917. Have you had an opportunity of reading the evidence given before, this Committee? — Yes. 1918. And have heard the evidence of to-d^y ?— Ye^j^'pretty generelty ; and I concur in the evidence I have read, so far aa.I am able tojudge of it ;.but having chiefly resided in Cape Town, add been eo^lliod m commercial pursuits, 1 possess but limited information as to the circijim^ancea of location, never having visited tbf settlement. i , - ^ ; 1919. Are you able to form a decided opinion aa to the dbporJtion that' would exist on the part of the colonists 0^ the Cape, to consent to repay the expense of ihe passage of the labourer thefe,|^jr pt^Jfiig ^ much per annum?— 4 ■pprebeiM( . ^5f>' Cc3 they Ml. Orwf* Tttmptm. V. Hf Mr. R. W. EtUm. ■>■', ^.. • ."'?' X. IT. Eiilm. t7 March, (s,- .#■ i ,^. IM |*»i •:ii5 fo6 MINUtfiS or EVIDENCE Dfit^IlE SELECT COMMITTBE they are not the pirties who could object ; the leitier lihriHtfttnt oat weald be the only party to make an objection to it, it woaM be hnmaterial to the maater. 1920. Are you of opinion that the coloniato at the C*pe, upon the teraia of having an emigrant settler bound to hhn for five years for 9/. m jHr, Vould lie, in consideration of receiving such a settler, consent to p«T 3/. a vear to the local authorities of the Cape for the re-payment of the expense incurred by that emigrant? ■—I should think he would very rieadily concur, so long as the two Bonw fogetlier would only amount to a reasonable rate of wages. 1931. when you say, provided the two sums together do not anMunt to Above a reasonable rate of wages, do you eonteitiplate pladfig the emigrant, after dcijucting that inpayment, in a state in which he can meintah) himself #ith cooofort ? — Of course. igaa. Do ytm consider that 9/. a year b a fair t«iiiUner*tkfn for labour at the Cape, wHh saMistence?—! should presMbe it is, altHou|jh I believe at the saitid time it is considerably below the present rate of wagea. ' 1933. Have you any meians of knoa-inj^ of your own knowledge, that 9/. a year, with food,' will provicfe the labouring servant with not only the necessaries, but comforts of life? — I should think it amply sufficient in the country districts, pro- vided that he is subsisted ; I should think It sufficient to find him with clothing and iNber little comforts that might be necessary. •t|^ 1^34. Would he be able oat of that sum to save as much money at the expiration of his term of indenture, as would enable bim to become a small fanner or occupied ^ —No, he would not be able to save any thing oiit of that. 1935. At the expiration of the term of his indenture he would be pennyless ?■— • Yes, unless he happened to be very pradent ; I apprehetid the wages are uiMidaally low in comiMirison with the rate of wagea in the colony. '¥' 1936. Too have stated Aat you were b merchant m,,Cape Town?— Yes^ 1937. You do not intend to apply the rate of wages, of 9/. a year, to the inhd* bitants of Cape Town, but to the inhabitants of the newly settled districts?— -Yet; but I have understood that the rate of wages in the new settlement are much higher than in Cape Tonn. ' 1938. What do you undmtand that to l)er— Four or five shillings a day; but I ought to state that I am very imperfectly informed updn those subjects ; I have never visited the frontier, and it is only from casual conversations upon the subject I am able to form any judgment whatever, and I should be very diffident in expressing •n opinion. 1039. Is there any demand for manual labour beyond what can be supplied at Gipe Town ? — Yes, I think there is. 1930. What is the ordinary rate of wages to a household serranl in Cape Town* of the lower class ? — ^Thirty or forty shillings a month. 1931. That includes subsutence?— Yes. 1933. Do you think there would be any readiness on the part of the infaabitanta of Cape Town to take a number of persons of that description, and paying a certain sum per annum in the shape of repaying tbdr expenses?-— I question if the mhabitants of Cape Town would be willug to take indentured .household servants. . 1933. From the general impression you receive at the Cape, as well as ^our own observation, are you of opmion the resources of the Cape would be materially increased under the cucumstanoe of the introduction of labpur proportioned to the demand ? — I think so. ^' t934- Do you know of any circumstance that would be likely to be of equal advantage to the Cape?— No, I know of no other; when I say it seems to ine to be 80 desirable, I feel some doubt in my own mind on the subject of indenturing the emigrants for a period of five or seven years ; it has appeared to nie that considerable disputes and discontent have existed in those cases where emigrants have been so indentured; and I think that the indentured servants might perhaps be dissatisfied if tliey found they were bound for a period of five or seven years at a rate of wages much below that which they could obtain were they at liberty to carry their labour elsewhere. 1935. But you are aware, by the terms of the proposition, that they would not be removied from their own country unldBS they contented to such arrangement? —Yes. * 1936. And do you not conceive that when that was made a ground for thena td^ ^t rid of their present siiftrihgg and distrbsses, that their objection wduld be diidiidshed to such an vrangnnieht? — Yes; bat if they felt they could earn more OK EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1807. 997 ivagM if they w«ra not kidenuirad, llMy vooM rttbtr amicrtalHi to rrfmy the 3/. thfiiDMlvM toGofenmeDt, «nd be at liberty, thw to find employnent wbwvfar tHej could. ^ In point of fact you would concur witb Mr. Tiioai|Mon in opinion, that to .-•'s.tgn them as it were to tlM Govamaaent, and to leave a discretion as to the manner of disposing of them iheie* secqring in one way or tlie other the payment of the money, would be the wisest coune?— I should have an objection to consini them to the Government, and allow the Government to apprentice them to tSe eolunisu ; there has been a ^ood deal of dissatisfaction as to the disposal of Priie Apprentices under those circumstances, and it might afford opportunities that would tend to create much dissatisfaction if the Government had the disposal of them. 1938. Do you not think some principle might be established, such as drawing lots, or some other, so as to make it impossible that any principle of fiivouritism could be applied?— Yes, I think it possible some such plan might exist, but there WQuld be 00 party between the Government and the settler in those cases ; I think the settler in all probability would be dissatisfied if he were at the disposal of others for a long period ; if the period were short, it would be of little consequence; if lie was apprenticed for tnelve months, to find a provision for him at bu arrival at the colony, ayd at the end of twelve months, if he was at liberty to seek employment where he could find it, only compelling his master at all times to reserve so much of bis wages as sliould amount to 3/. per annqm, I think he would perhaps be placed under more favourable circumstances, and certainly feel his freedom and :ndepen- dence ; for a man, after he has passed through a certain period of life, will not be satisfied at being apprenticed for so long a period as five years ; those are the impressions that have occurred to me. 1 939. Do you not think if a settler was to go into the interior, at the end of the irst year there would be a great difficulty in marking his course and obtaining the money?— I think through ti» IocaI authorities he could always be traced ; a man is not easily lost at the C^pe. 1940. Would it not be a difficult thing, from a remote part of the country, to obtain those 3/. from the master?— No. I think not, through the local authoritiea; they are intimately acquainted with the particular individuals who compose the inhabitants of their respective districts. 1941. Can you state the price of day labour in Cape Town itself? — It varies very much, uccording to the nature of the employment ; mechanics get higher wages than day labourers ; but I believe.tbe wages fluctuate from perhaps about fiAeen or sixteen pence per day to double ttiat sum. 1942. Is that sufficient for the comfortable subsistence of a bbourer? — Yes, t think quite so ; the provisions are comparatively very cheap in thC colony, although they are dearer in Cape Town. European labourers generally get much fa^lwr wages than the colonial labourers, if their conduct is good. 1943. They work harder? — They are considered to be better workmen and more attentive to their work, and do not require so much looking after. I believe the following Scate a tolerably correct statement of the price of labour in Cape Town: Mr. . s^ ' S7 Marck, itt7. \^ v« ' ..^ Coolies, for job work Men employed b wine stores Masons - - - Gardeners - - - Domestic male servants - D* - female d* R. d^ a p' diem. ' '^ 20 a' 30 p' month. ^ average if p'diem. about 15 p' month, and subaisleoot. 15 «* 30 — — ' 10 a' 20 — — Prbn apprentices, whose apprenticeships have expired, obtain from 3 a' 10 R.d* per nfioiith, with subsistence and clothing. '-1 But the money price of native labour in the colony, compared with that of Europeap labour in this country, is not a just comparison ; u workmap or labourer ip England, from his superior skill and greotfer activity, produces, I apprehend, at the least double the work of a colonial wprkman or labourer b the same portion of time. . There is also . a great distinctkm amougst the slavea and pria apprentioes, widi respect to thei^- <|iMlifications for jvork and domestic serrice, which produces • •orresponding 'libtir.ction in tlie rate of wages. 550. C c 4 The ■ . #; - ■- IK " 9o8 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE BEFORE SEUCT COMMITTU) ]il^. The MiUyt are t much mora active and eiBeient cIam of aervanta in evary X. IK juitm, capacity than the Negroei ; but ai I have juti itateH, U>e European, at veJM kirn <• ^ in this country, it superior to the Malay, although he Keneially retrogradea in ttM •7 Mwcb, colony, from the prevalence of moral depravity, the habit he acquires of aMuiaed ii*7- superiority over the coloured population, and the templutiuns to idlencM, arising from the warmth of the cliiiiute and the indolence and indifference which h« observes to prevail amongst the working classes of the colony ; notwithstanding which, I believe the wages of Euro|)eans to be in general higher than that of th« natives. ^ > 1944. In the case you have just now submitted to the Committee, bow would you provide in the event of a family going out, consisting of a man and his wife and three children; suppose a man became a servant upon the terms just notr froposed, how would his wife and children be provided for in the meantime ? — f he in indentured for twelve months, in order to make an immediate provision to meet his arrival in the colony, his family should be attached to him, that those who talie him should take his family; otherwise I do not see how they are to b«, provided for. 1945. Do you think the coloniita will object to take • roan under those circum- stances, or would they have any use for the woman?— In some cases they would be glad of females ; I suppoie the parties would have made their engagement before they went, so that they would go out pre-engaged. 1946. You think that the sort of emigration you propose, would be much mora suitable to single men than to families ? — Yes, I should think so ; but I have uoderw. •topd there is a considerable want of female servants in the Albany district. With regard to the printed Evidence, I think the evidence of Lieutenant Wbil*^ relative to the price of wheat, is erroneous; tlie price of wheat at Cape Tpwn, in 1819, is stated to be 3*. a bushel ; I believe the price of wheat at Cape Town, at that period, was not less than ft. 6d. or 6$. a; bushel, the average price was 160 rixi dollars per load, which is 16 dollars a muidi a dollar is 18 pence, and there arai three bushels to the muid ; I think it must have been an error in transcribing the evidence. I observe that a question was asked Mr. Ellis, whether 8o«. a quarttr> was the general price of wheat in the colony ; it is a diificult thing to say the general- price of wheat in the colony, as it has latterly undergone such astonishing fluctuationa in consequence of the failure of the crop ; but if you exclude the unfavourable seasons, from 30*. to 37*. 6d. a quarter will be found tol)e the average price, but it has been of course very much higher in the scarce seasons ; at about 00s, a quarter is the point, below which the Government exclude the introduction of foreign wheat. Foreign wheat ia not permitted to be imported at the Capo of Good Hope when the colonial wheat is'lbelow 160 dollars a load, which is about 6o«. a quarter. I also- observe that Lieutenuit White has stated, that there is no market for the surplus produce of the colony; I conceive he meant the surplus wheat; I should presume lie, meant to confine his observations to wheat ; and at the time he was there, I conceive tltere was no possibility of exporting it, if they had been able to raise a surplus of wheat ; but it is very well known there are various markets for the produce of the Cape of Good Hope, and markets that would take ofT any quantity of corn that could be produced, the Mauritius, tiie Brazils,^ and Saint Helena; the Mauritius has no wheat, except what she gets from the Cape of Good Hope and India, and the Cape of Good Hope wheat is so. superior to Indian wheat, that she always prefers it when she can get it; and whenever the price of wheat at the Cape of Good Hope is at or below 100 rix dollars per load, it forms a safe remittance to the Isle of France. 1947. How is the quality of wheat, compered with English wheat? — Very superior; I believe there is no wheat superior to it in the world. 1948. Is wheat bread the food of the common people in the Cape? — Yes, except in cases of failure ; the failure of the crops occasioned the introduction of barley bread among the inhabitants of the distant parts of the colony. 1 949. Is maize cultivated ? — ^Yes, to a limited extent ; and I have often thought, as there happens occasionally so great a scarcity of export corn, the colonists would do well to cultivate maize and rye as in North America, and adopt it for the use of the colony, which is said to be the finest bread made. 1 950. Do potatoes succeed ? — Not very well. ' 1951. Does not the sweet potatoe succeed? — It succeeds very well in the flolony. • , ,. .;--.-. ■V- ',/ ON EMIORATIUN PHOM THE UNITED KINGDOM: ilhy. Mtg : 1951. It It uMd to any comiderable mient? — Ym. IU55. H«v« you ever heard wlwther ihe introduction of ■ new lort of whtat would prevent the accident of tiie rustr — I have heard that opinion eiprtaicd, and it hat been tried with lucceu in tome iiisuncc*. ' 1954- If it thould not be the caac, would it not appear very deairable that the ■lapie food of the country ihould be main or tome otiier corn not liable to thia accKlent, to as to leave wheat an article of export when a good crop ?— -Yes, that ia my opinion ; but I do not know whether the colony is nut too dry fur Ihe cultivation of iQ^iie, as an article of general culture. 195.V Have you ever neard an opinion given of the capacity of parts of the colony to grow cotton ? — Yes ; I am not aware of any local advantages as to tbo SrowUi of it, but I have heard opinions expressed in (uvour of its success where it as been undertaken, but I am not aware of any experiments having been tried to any great extent. 1956. Do you think tobacco could be made an article of export, if not prohibited? •-I do not know that I can give an opinion upon it ; the tobacco grown in the colny is very inferior to American tobacco. Mr. It. n. Eitl<>• that tlierc is nothing like a remunerating price now for hand-loom wjavin)^ had it not been for the assistance which has Iwen afforded by the Relief Committee, and charitable contributions of various sorts, the country must have been in a state of complete starvation; there are two very extensive hundreds, the higher and lower division of Blackburn hundred. 1963. Do you conceive there is any probability, in the present state of the trade, of any revival of the band-loom work r — No, 1 have no distinct prospect of any relief being afforded. ' 1964. Do you think there is any probability of a greater demand for cotton goods than exists at present? — I see no channel or prospect whatever of any improvement we can rely upon. 1965. What effect upon the poor-rates, in that part of the country, has iieen produced by the great depression of the hand- loom weaving trade ?— I am not able to speak as to what the poor-rates are at present, they vary exceedingly in every township; but I have known one or two instances mentioned to me in the neigh- boarhood of Padiham, where estates have not been able to ., » «9 March, 18S7. h \ I ! \ (^ 910 MINUTES or EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE brought « very circuimtantUl Mcount had I bean awm of bcinn osIM upoa ; km only knowing it JMt night, 1 can only •peak from tha racollectioa 1 hava, and what I have heard upon the subject In ttia year 1814, tbara wara not aa waoy gooda made in the town and neigbbourlnod of Blackburn, by about io,o«o plaaaa par week, at there ara at the praaant mument ; aad tha wagaa may aoMNiat now t» ahaut 10.000/. IcM than tliey did at that period. 1968. What ara tlia principal cauaaa which, in your mind, hava lad to Ihb vary low lUle of trade at pratent?— There muit hava bean a great combinatloo of caotai, and it it vty diflRcult to account for what it may ariaa f^om ; thara ia a mat coat* petition now in varioui quartert, of courte, that we never eiparieaead io tha tiow of war { America hat become a coniiderabia manufacturing country. 1969. Do you attribute much of the temporary dittreaa to tha kitroduerion of power-loomi 7— It certainly mutt hava intamred to a certain degrea, hi'r«UM there have been more goodt produced by tha hand-loom and tha powar-loom working together 1 but the introduction of lh« power>loom, I conceive, will ba a cauna of taving the manufacturet to thit kingdom ; without tht powcr*looatt the manufactoriet mutt be annihilated entirely, for tha Americana ara makiog uw of the powar-loom. 1970. In your mind, ia there any probability that tha powor^loon manuiaetoriaa, or any other lource whatever, will abaorb tha population afho ara now thrown out of employ by tha diKontinuance of the hand-loom? — No, by no mcana. 1971. Do you therefore contemplate that thit redundant population will ba left wltliout hope of remedy, at a conttant and incraating burthen upon your pariihaa?T— I tee no protpect whiitever of relief being afforded to them ; itfppaara to ma to ba a permanent evil ; I do not tee how it it to be got over. 1979. What hava been the effecta produced by tha temporary rdiaf which h« • been afforded from charitable tubtcriptioni?— It hu certainly kent the paopio from starving, with the little remuneration they hava baao able to gel worn weaving; bill it may nave had a bad contequence in another retpect, for it haa produc*!) a greater abundance of manufactured ooodt, for tha manufacturer hat been enabled in part to pay hit waget by the relief that hu been afforded by thn Relief Committee to tha poor weavers ; ror inttance, he could get hit work done to much mora reatooably, than if they had been paid entirely by the nuuter tnannfiictarMr. 1973. The manufiicturen were not the organs by which the Relief Com- mittee dealt out their aatiatan'ce? — No, they were not; there wera oommittaaa appointed. 1974. You mean, therefore, tliat ihr relief afforded had tha effect of reducing the price, or keeping down the price of tnttuuftctaring labour T — It haa produced a tupar* abundance of manufactured gtxxL,, by enabling the people to bis employed who could not have been employed by tlie njoiter manuiiscturera, unleaa the waavart had been enabled to weave upon tuch low tormt and low wagea at the matter manufiuturara save them ; and, therefore, the relief they have received from the Relief Committao» hat enabled the poor weavers to exitt, and to work on lower terms than would otberwite have been the caie without tuch attittance. 197.5* Would not the effect have been the tame,' as to tbair employment, if they had not received that relief? — ^They must have starved. 1976. Would not they have worked even for two or three ihillingt a week, rather than have sUrved?— The matter maoofisctorerB are now of a cliM that are not very affluent, and their capitalt have been very much diminithed by the dittrenes of thia< times ; and .therefore they could not have affordod to carry on much butinosa ftom their own capitals. 1 1977. Are you at all acquainted Mlh Peodle Forest and ^'diic'r ' • ^ am. . 1978. Have you not heard that no poors rates whatever ' ' ' ' ■ .>d:iQ som« townships or parishes in that district r— I am not so partit;uit..v well acquainted at' to speak to tliose points ; I live at about the diltanoe of twelve miles from thenca^ , ancS I bear those things from report more than from any personal knowledge I. have of 'be district 1 : 79. Have you not heard that reported ?— I have not i i(;S' Not during the time that the penalty rate was collected, namely, that rate coliccce* •y:'> m''e gpod '.*•: lottei of the power-loom weavers ^No, I have not hearri uny *»i .zaitin front that district V^tli- **'i it not. b».'>i for that local relief to which yon have alluded, the uu&ler ffito.-ractucers, ycj tay, could not have employed or kept the people from starviog; ON KMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1897. an ibcy pnt MMla ap, lofMlMr wMi Ikt rtlkf, • tubtiaUnM '''^'^u/' •larviiiiit liMtk*' , to ttoMpltN-YM. f 9ll{|. TlMy paM owi wid it«e rt lHwy fsr labour, for wMeh Uwy muit otherwiM Im«« paki Ibrw or four ihilllafi, to havo had tba work dona ^•~Y«4 l^t). Yoor opinion tbartfore, in gmtral, of tha eAct pMKiucad by local relief \», that though ihoM eonlribotioni hn «; bem nactMory for prMrrring the p«oplu frum actoal •tarmlion, th^ have had in .v nne rMMct a mitchii^ous effect, in etkcou raging oetr-productioB of niamifaetured go<>os '— ntariy n ; for any thing that producet aa oveTkabuadaoee of goods no«*, is deetru me of pricat, rediicet tha price*, and ruet down tha wagea. 1984. Have m ovarMcrt of the ,Kiri))hai, in the MHrtaiHW and relief •ffbrded to Iba poor, aontribotod thanudfcg t^i increase th'-^ evil?— Y««, generally I ronceive thay have, for they hava bacn unti the o«ci;.':/■:. 2030. Do you know the rental of the township in which you liver— No, I do not. 2031,. Do you know the amount of the poor-rates levied in that township? — No, I do not 203a. Do you know how much in the pound is levied on the township for the poors rates ? — No. 2033. Do you knew whether the township is rated at rack-rent, or at two thirds, or at what proportion ? — At rack-rent* I have always understood. 550. D d 3 2034. Does Hfmm FieUen, 39 March, 1817. ^\ Ilii m V i^s^ 314 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Willmt ruidtn, 2034 Does the disposition \v destroy the power-lopnu continue? — No, I think £»]■ that feeling has quite died away ; I think the weavers are very sensible of their "- ' error. ' In the Darwen district, they have been actually supplicating that the power- «9 Marcb, looms may be brought in, to give them employment, the very people who broke tbem ""'• before. 3035. You are not enabled to inform the Committee of any coune whkh presents itself for relieving the weavers of Blackburn from the inoumbrance of this super- abundant population ? — No; if commerce should refSMve a great stimulus, that would be the best relief which could be afforded to the operative weavers. 2036. Of that you have no expectation?— No, I sect no prospect of any thing immediate. 2037. Do you not conceive that the distress of the operatives in the parish of Blackburn arises from their receiving so smdll a remuneration for their labour#-^ Decidedly so. 3038. Do you not conceive that arises from the supply of labour bcsing greatly in abundance, as compared with the demand? — Yes, certainly. 2039. Do you not conceive that the introduction of power-loom machinery, ne- cessarily displacing human labour, has tended to aggravate that effect ? — It must have done that, to a certain degree; there must have been an increased quantity of goods manufactured by the power-loom and handTioom weaving together. 2040. Are you ilftt, tlierefore, satisfied that only one of two alternatives can i>e expected to happen, to relieve the parish : the revival of commerce, under which the master manufacturers can afford to give greater wages to the labourers, or the removal of some of the labourers, in consequence 01 which the condition of the remainder might be bettered ? — Yes, I think so. 3041. If, therefore. Emigration could be expected to be carried into effiict satis- factorily to the parties emigrating, and securing their future prosperity, and they were consentient to such a proposal, are you not of opinion, that under the circum- stances you have described, of the little hopes among the master manufacturers of revival of trade to any such extent as to restore the proportions between supply and labour, the rate-payers would contribute towards the expenses of emigration, provided they found it was not too great a tax upon them ? — I cannot at all tell how far the rate-payers mi^ht be disposed to raise funds to promote emigration, because the whole community is impoverished, and has. suffered so severely . from charitable contributions and aids in one way or another, receiving diminislied «ir no rents, that they are unable to aford that relief that they would otherwise have done under more favourable circumstances. 2042. Can you inform the Committee what the expense of maintaining tbrougb- ' out the year, a pauper and his wife and three children, would be in Blackburn ? — No, I cannot ; I have not been on any select vestry, so as to know the details of those matters ; I should state that the expense of maintaining the poor has been much more moderate, from the circumstance of the overseer finding them euiploy- ment in weaving; they have paid for their sustenance, in a great measure, by their own labour. 2043. Notwithstanding that resource of finding employment for the poor by the ove^eer, is it not a fact that the rates of Biackbuhk are burtbened to the greatest extent in the maintenance of them ? — Yes, certainly ; for, with eveiy aid and every assistance, the rates are exceedingly heavy, and unless the charitable contributions which have been given are continued, I see no possibility of the poor misting. 2044. Have you any means of knowing, either from your own ..observation or from the information of others, whether the stocks of ' manufactured goods, of different descriptions, in the hands of the puichasers in England and on the continent, are large or small ? — I should think srtiall npw, for there has been- such a length of time for stocks abroad to have got exhausted, that I think they muA have diminished and got very low. 2045. After tlie extraordinary commercial difiiculties which have taken place, and the extraordinary depression of all sorts of commodities, do not you think « that before we can expect a revival of demand, the persons from whom that demand is to arise must feel the pressure of a want of goods? — Yes, I «hould think so. 2046. And that in ordinary circumstances they would order goods, and a quan- tity of goods much greater than under their present local circumstances tliey would be inclined to do ?— -Yes. . 3047. H«s iliiJ IVV ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 315 3047. Has not a mistake pretty generally been made on the subject of the price at which cottoa can be produced, both by the manufacturers of cotton and the purchasers of cotton goods? — I think the general observation of the purchasers is, not that they have ihou^t the prices of cotton too high, but that they have no con- fidence in those prices being maintained ; whether those prices will be still further depressed we do not know, so many causes contribute to the depression of the prices of cotton goods, the distrea* of manufacturers, and a variety of causes. . 3048. Has not that mistake made tlie purchasers of cotton goods still more fear- ful of laying in stocks than they would otherwise have been ? — I do not know whether that is a mistake, we do not know at what price cotton can he produced. 2049. Would not the manufacturing of goods which is now going on in that district, and has been going on for some time, be sufficient for the employment of the people they, if it were not for the introduction of the power-loom ? — I ought to explain that by saving, that the manufactory by the power-loom is a very distinct one from that which is carried on by hand-loom, and one that is quite essentidi to the con- sumption of tbe country and to the demand which comes from abroad ; I am afraid, from the inquiries which have been made, that there is a sort of invidious distinction drawn between the hand loom and the power-loom, or that which might appear so, by its being admitted that power-loom weaving has contributed to the evil, which it certainly has done, for there have been many more goods made by having the two instruments at work at the same time, both the power-loom and the hand-loom ; but the power-loom is so essential to the use of the country, that it will in time explode the band loom almost entirely, I apprehend. 3050. You consider the distress at present existing to arise not from any deficient amount of trade for ihe employment of the people, but that that trade can now be carried on by a smaller niimber of bands? — I consider that there is a considerable deficiency in the demand at this time, that it is what is generally termed a very unhtfklthy state of trade, there is no good demand existing. 3051. You state that the^ have manufactured more goods lately than on the average of former times ?— Yes, they have. 9053. If those goods had been manufiictured in the old way, without the power- loom, would not' that state of trade have given employment to the people ? — Most likely it would, for there must have been a considerable addition made to the quantity manufactured by the power-looms, and if those were abstracted, those which had been made by the hand loom might have been sufficient for the demand. 3053. You have stated that the landowners and persons of property in the district have not turned their attention much to Emigration as a means of relief? — No, it has never been contemplated. 3054. Has it been contemplated by tbe men in distress ? — No, I think not in the least 2055. You have no Emigration societies ?— No, I believe not. I have been absent for the last six or seven weeks. 3056. Do you think the labouring classes would be favourable to any plan of Emigration ? — That is a circumstance I cannot speak to at all, because it is quite novel. 2057. You will not understand any question that may have been put to you hy thk Committee as in the slightest degree expressing an idea prejudicial to the power- loom, but to ascertain the effect of the power-loom on that part of the population which depended upon tbe hand loom for their subsistence? — I was only afraid that if those questions went into Lancashire, it might appear as if the two were put into competition. 3058. It is perfectly well known to the Committee, that if the power-loom were not employed in Lancashire, it Would be empbyed somewhere else, in consequence of which the labourit:>g poor would be prejudiced instead of benefited ? — Certainly. 3059. Did you ever calculate tlie quantity of manual labour that is dispensed with by the power-loom ; how many hands would be required to do the work which a power-loom effects? — I am not able to answer that question with certainty, but I have always understood that about one-third or one-fourth of labour is saved ; there are a great number of people employed about the power-looms in various preparations of tlie article before it comes into the loom, and so many mechanics are employed in making the machinery and keeping it in order, that I do not imagine, from what. I have understood, that more than from one-third to one-fourth is saved by the use of power-looms. 550. U d 4 2060. Do lyilHam Fieldtn, Eiq. 99 Marcb, 1897. i;n WilUamFitlden, E«q. 39 Marcb, 1837. \ V ll^: v'' a 16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 2060. Do you think that where there were 100 persons employed before the power-loom was effected, it may be assumed that seventy-five are now employed ?-^ Yes, I think so. 2061 . But some of the goods are of a different description ? — Yes, certainly. 2062. You include all the mechanics engaijed in making the power-loom, pr^ paratory to the use of it r — Yes, a great deal of preparation for the work is necessary; It goes through a great many stages to prepare it for the loom. 2063. Do you think that of the persons engaged in the manufacture of cottoh, fifty persons are employed now in proportion to a hundred that were employ^ formerly ? — ^The power-loom is introduced in so small a degree into my district, that I cannot speak to that. 2064. The general impression in your neighbourhood is, that it displaces abbut one-third of the number formerly employed ? — Yes, one-third or one-fourth. A' 2065. Are you of opinion that if the hand-loom weavers were removed, power- looms would increase in that neighbourhood ? — Yes. . 2066. Do you not suppose that the mistake admitted to have been generally made as to the cost of the production of cotton, and the fear that the price may be further depressed, have operated so as to increase the disinclination of purchasers of cotton goods to lay in their usual stocks ? — I conceive that the purchasers of cotton goods are deterred from purchasing, from a fear of its coming lower ; without ca1c61atihg what the expense of the cost, or the growth is, as I mentioned before, so many circumstances, such as those of scarcity of money, and distress arising from a variety of causes, bring down tlie prices, that the cost of production can never be calcuhited upon with certainty. 2067. How long is a man making one piece of calico by a hand loom? — If the slightest description is spoken ot^ a man will weave about four or five pieces a week, but he must work very hard, and work ovtr-hours. 2068. What does a power-loom weave in the same period, of the same arUlle? — No comparison can be drawn, unless the fabrics were the same ; a power-loom cannot compete with the hand loom in goods of a thin description; whenever the wages descend for manual labour to about half a crown a piece, the hand lobqn itrast be employed ; they pay but fifteen pence a piece for the weaving of this cloth by manual labour, and therefore no cloth of that descriptiod is manufactured by thie power-loom ; they make a more substantial article in the power-loom. 2069. Are the power-looms all of the same size ? — No, they vary very much, according to the width of the piece they are to produce ; different widths are required for different purposes. 2070. Do they, the looms, vary in price very much? — No, the simple loom is worth about 10/. to ten guineas. 2071. Do not the power-looms produce a better article, of morti uniform quality? — Decidedly so, of a very superior fabric indeed. William Hultm, Esq. ''■'[ii- IVMam Hulion, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 2072. YOU reside in the immediate neighbourhood of Bolton?— I do; I reside twelve miles west of Manchester, four south of Bolton, and about ten fromChorley, id the verv heart of the manufacturing districts. 2073. You have been lately in active correspondence with the London relief Committee ? — I have, from the first moment of its commencement to the present time. 2074. In the course of your correspondence with them, have yon had frequent opportunities of making yourself acquainted with the state of things in your neigh- bourhood? — Certainly; I have been regularly visiting, not leaving it to com- oiittecs; but I have myself visited all the cottages within a larg^ district around ny own house. 3075. Can you give the Committee any idea of the extent to which distress prevails among the lower and middling classes in that district? — I have lived at Hulton ever since I came of age, and during that time I have never witnessed any thing at all equal to the present distress, by present, I mean the distress of last week, because I do think that it is increasing. I believe there is scafcely one 16om in my own immediate neighbourhood unemployed now, but the state of the families of the poor is certainly much more destitute than it was when the Com- mittee first extended the aid of its charitable fund, and when a very great number were unemployed ; the present distress arises from several causes ; the bedding aiid «K!« . V clothes i;\ ON EMIGKATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : 1897. ai; frequent neigh- to com- round my distress lived at issed any iS of last cely one te of the he Corn- number dine aiid clothes clothes of the poor are totally exhausted. I should mention that I live io the parish of Dean, which consists of ten townships, which are for all purposes as distinct as if they were separate parishes, and in those several townships the employment of labour is quite different ; for instance, in the township in which I Jive it has been my object always to reduce the number of cottages, whenever they were vacant I have pulled them down ; besides, the coal trade is tlie chief branch in which the people are employed, consequently in my own township we feel little or no distress. Over the biedge, which bounds my township from the township of West Houghton on the west side, and the township of Atherton on the south, they are almost wholly employed in hand-loom weaving, and it is almost in- credible to see the dii&rent state of comfort in the one township and of misery in ^0 other) the poor-rates in West Houuhton have increased, and are on the in^ease; I think that as compared with last year tliey will be found to be tripled or quadrupled. If I had expected to have. been examined, I would have brought some details on this subject. The misery is beginning to work now by the poverty of the small lay payers, for, as has been mentioned by another witness, our farms are generally very small, they may keep two or three cows, there are exceptions, but they are generally small, and those lay payers, whose families were employed in the hand-loom weaving, have left their land in a very bad state, they have generally attended to their loom ; now they cannot obtain sufficient to pay their taxes; the consequence is, that the persons to whom their land belongs must suffer; among that class the distress has been so great that it became a serious question with us on the last grant from the Committee in London, whether wc should rigidly adhere to the rule we had laid down, not to relieve those who were lay payers, because it appeared to involve a contradiction that we should relieve those that were compelled lo pay to the town. Within the last month we have found some such extreme cases of distress, that we have been obliged, in as delicate a mMioer as we-could,.for their feelings were almost hurt by receiving the relief, to give it in the way of bedding and clothes ; it has been the most painful duty any person can be engaged in ; we have had to relieve those who have seen much better days. 3076. With a view of giving the Committee a general idea of the extent of the distress, can you mention any particular instances of which you have been yourself an eye-witness? — One or two I have ventured to report to the London Relief Committee, such as I had not conceived to exist in a civilized country ; there is qne I have not reported, which was anterior to the last donation we received ; Mrs. Hulton and myself, in visiting the poor, were asked by a person almost starving, to go into a house, we there found on one side of the fire a very old roan, apparently dyin^ on the other side a young man of about eighteen, with .a child on his knee, whose mother had jest died and been buried, and evidently both that young man and the child were suffering from want ; of course our object was to relieve them, and we were going away from that house, when tbs woman said. Sir, you have not seen all; we went up stairs, and under some rags we found another young man, the widower, and on turning down the >-r>r^, which be was unable to remove himself, we found another man who was dying, and who did die b the course of the day ; I have no doubt that family we^ actually starving at the time- ap77. Though that case may be an extreme one, are there very many families in that neighbourhood who are on the very verge of famine, if not suffering actual, famine?— I am sure that both I and the Clergyman of West Houghton, who has been with me latteriy, have made » very accurate calculation on that point ip the last township we visited. West Houghton, consisting of rather more than five, thousand inhabitants; we fpund two thousand five hundred totally destitute of bedding, and nearly so of clothes ; I am positive I am correct, when I say that six per cent are in a state such as tl^at described, a state of famine, or th^t ap- froaching to it ; it is from the papers I have prepared for the Committee, that deduce that to be an accurate statement. In another case of extreme distress, there were a widow and three children who had not tasted the meal and water, which is the only thing almost they eat there, for eight and fofty hours; I found a young man of sixteen in such a state of exhaustion, I was obliged to send a cart with a litter to bring him home, and he is now under my own care, and we have hardly been able to sustain ^m in life ; we found many families who have not made one meal in twenty-four hpurs. It appears very strange that, with resident niMistrates and oversfsers, such cases of distress could occur ; it i» only where 5.50. E e there Em,. ay Morcb 1 117. lit MINUTES or EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE i! ' u I I I t V J ■I' I 1 Eiq. » ^ ■> 99 March, 1I37.' there are hand-loom weavers, and in remote situations ; these do not occur in towns; but in country districts, where the hand-loom weavers are thickly spread ; the masses of people assembled together tend to create distress, for they are not the persons who belong to the identical townsliip in which they live, but many of them having settled from remote distances, find a great difficulty in getting relief from their town- ships, for their settlements are disputed, and there are many ways in which tliey are prevented getting the relief which they need afforded to them. 'J078. As you have mentioned the difference of distress in those parishes, inha- bited in a great measure by hand-loom weavers and others, can you state the difference in the amount of the poor-rates, how much per cent?— Not with sufficient accuracy* 3079. Can you state the amount of the poor-rates in your own township ?— No^ I cannot. aoSo. How is the poor-rate paid in your district ? — By a rate of the iubabitants upon themselves ; the rate payers meet, and ascertain what will be necessary for the relief of the poor, and tl>o county rates ; having ascertained that, the book is laid before two magistrates, for their approbation and signature. ao8i. Are your overseers over townships in the same manner as over parishes? -^Yes. 3082. Have you ever made any calculation, or can you at all give the Committee an idea, of what is the amount necessary to support a family in a state wholly destitute, for a twelvemonth, taking the average to consist of five persons ? — Yes, I would state what guides myself and my brother magistrates, when we are applied to for relief; we used to consider it right that the allowance per head should amount to three shillings a week, that they should make up for their maintenance fifteen shillings, a;kd whatever was wanting to make up that we ordered the over- seers to make up ; we consider that now too high to be levied, and we think they ought to have 2*. 6d. per head, to maintain them in clothes and food ; that w^ld be about 30 /. per annum to maintain a family of five persons ; in the money granted to the mother of illegitimate children, we always grant in common cases 1 s. 6d. a week. 2083. Do you think there are many persons at present in your district, who are in this state of entire destitution and entire dependence on parish relief? — No, I think there are very few who are entirely so, because all the looms are in employ- ment. I take the average wages which a really good weaver at a hand-loom will obtain to be about 8f. a week, but from that there are drawbacks, which I do not understand, not being conversant with trade ; the average of women, and children of fifteen or. sixteen years old, I take to be about 3«. per week. But on this part of the subject I am bound to state one great grievance to which they are subject^ the trade has been subdivided into the hands of master manufacturers, who are men of no education, and little capital, the consequence is, that even this money which I state as the average, is paid in what is termed shop stuff; I look upon that to be one of the greatest evils which exists in our country. 2084. That is illegal ?->-Perfectly so; and v;e are most anxious, as magistrates, to convict where we can; but soob is the terror of the people in coming forward, that we cannot get at the proof of it A custom prevails now very generally, of the little master manufacturers building cottages appropriated to their weavers, and those weavers who are permitted to live in them, pay a much higher rent tban^ey would to me, or any other country gentleman ; so that there is a great diminution of that which appears as the payment for labour 2085. Do you think an advanti^ -will result from the introduction generally of power-looms, that that will throw the cotton trade into the hands of persons possessing larger capital, and therefore of more liberal habits and feelings? — Yes, decidedly ; it must require a ^ven capital to erect a power-loom manufactory of any size; but I should say, as far as my belief goes, there again those so employed in the steam manufactures are obliged to purchase at a certain shop, aiid to live in a certain house; that prevails, I believe, in the towns generally, I know it does in Bolton. 3086. Is it your opinion that, according to the present state of the trade, the population in your dbtrict is beyond all dispute redundant ? — Yes, certainly, it ir impossible to find employment for them. 2087. Is there any immediate probability, as far as you can judge, of such a change in the proportion between labour and the demand for it^ as shall' make that population no longer redundant?'—! am perfectly unftcquunted with trade, and ON EMIGRATION FROM THft UNITED KINGDOM: 1S37. 319 and the probability of demand, but taking it that the deoiaiid does not increase, but remains as at present, it is not possible they can be employed. 3088. Do you conceive that a great portion of the people are now permanently and hopelessly a burthen on the poor-rate' ?— Unquestionably ; and I consider, in my own neighbourhood, every yard of calico or muslin manufactured hus a great portion of the cost ^laid out of the township rates from our lands, because these mate- rials are manufactured at a price which will not keep the labourers who make them, and therefore what is wanted in tlie wages of the master manufacturer to support life, comes from the poor-rates. 3089. Have you considered what would be likely to be the effect of Emigration, in relieving from the effects of this superabundant population ?— Only withm these few days. 3090. Would it, in your opinion, be advisable for parishes and townships situate as those you have described, to get rid of a certain proportion of the population, supposing them to be charged with a sum equal to two or three years purchase of the poor-rates laid out upon that family?— Speaking as a landed proprietor, I should be very happy to see such a measure carried into effect ; and I have no doubt that, by proper explanation to the people themselves, they would be willing to avail themselves of it. 3091. Do you think that if such explanation were given, and it was satisfactorily proved that emigrants might be placed in a comfortable situation, and tlie parish freed from the burthen of maintaining them, at an expense of two years purchase of those persons maintenance, funds would be raised from charitable and voluntary contribu- tions in aid of such a project, and in assistance of the poor-rates ? — No, I am quite certain it is quite in vain to look for aid from voluntary contributions, for the demand ha9.been such on those who have had the means and disposition to give, they have not*'any longer the means of giving. 3093. You consider that the parish would gain in many instances by laying out a sum equal to two years expenses ? — Certainly, I think they would avail themselves of it. 3093. You have stated, that in the case of a weaver's family, consisting of a man, a woman, and three children on an average, who are supposed to be wholly destitute of employment, the parish expense, during the whole year, amounted to about 30/. ? —Yes. 3094. Do you think that in the present state of your townships, there would be a disposition, if power was given by law so to do, to charge the poor-rates for < ten years with an annuity of 7/. io« per annum, which would raise, at 5 per cent, a sum of 60/. for the purpose of getting rid of each of these families, the difference being in the first year between 7 /. io«. and 30/. being 22/. lOj.? — That propor- tion would hold good, if the fomily were wholly maintained from the township ; but it is only a portion of it that comes from parochial relief. I am satisfied that the townships would gain by an abstraction of manual labour ; at present, the people are in so reduced a situation of life, that they have no means of bringing up their children to any trade but that of weaving, and therefore as long as the population remains as great as it is, they are bringing up a new race of weavers. They have no means of giving them the slightest education, except what we do by charititble means ; and the various employments of labour, other than by band-loom weaving^ are all ftill to repletion. 3095. What is the description of the population in your part of Lancashire; are th^ natives of Lancashire, or are a great proportion of them strangers? — ^Tbere are a great proportion of strangers ; and one of the evils to which I have alluded, where I have found so much distress, has been firequentiy from the distance from the place of Settlement in which the pauper has resided. 3096. Are there a great many Irish who have lately settled in that district ?— No, I should say not lately ; and in the townships which are not immediately in the situation of towns, there are not many Irish spread over the district ; I live in a manu- facturing district which is almost one town, each lane has its population of hand-loom weavers ; but the Irish concentrate themselves in the manufiactuting towns, and not the manufacting districts. 3097. Do you think the population of that district is going oh increasing, not- withstanding the severity of the distress ; do you think that the severity of the dis- tress has had any tendency to check marriages ? — I believe not to any great extent ; I have made that inquiry at my own parish church, but not at any other ; I know, rtlyO, £ e 3 as ^ B*|. 19 Mwcb, 1047. <* aao MINUTES OF EVIDENCE fi«FORE SELECT COMMITTEe '*.' * I 19 Mareb, I ••7. u a magistrate, we have quite as many illegitimate children brought bffore us as at- any period however prosperous. 3098. How do you deal with the case of an illegitimate child, do you throw the burthen upon the parent ? — ^They are totally unable, in many instances, to support them ; the townships have taken very stroof^ measures of late to enforce it ; the measures taken by the overseers to enforce the payment for illegitimate chil* dren have produced tne very worst consequences; in many instances the fathers have been committed to our prisons, which are quite full ; the prison of our hun- dred now contains 740 inmates ; the mothers are unable to maintain these illegi- timate children, and there has been nu additional burthen on the poor.Fate8 from that cause. 3099. Supposing in any particular township there should be a partial revival of trade, do you think that any measures might be taken to prevent a sudden increase of population, from the small manufacturer building small cottages for the purpose of their being inhabited by his workmen ? — That is a question on which I have thought only for the last four and twenty hours, and I am not able to give a direct answer to it ; when I stated the good enects to result from the removal of a part of our population, another consideration was, how we should prevent their cottages being occupied by others ; bat without a very distinct revival is felt, I think that it is no longer a good speculation to engage in building them, the persons who have built them, and the friendly societies who have engaged in the building of them, have not found it a proBtable use of their money. 3100. It has not been tlie practice in your part of the country to pay rents from the poor-rates .' — No. aioi. Consequently a person has not the same interest in the building cottages as he might if the rent was paid out of the rates ? — No, certainly not ; I know one or two townships where one or two of the principal rate payers are proprietors of cottages, and they will of course, under those circumstances, take care to secure their rents for those cpttages in an underhand way, perhaps from the over- seer ; but those are peculiar circumstances, and where it prevailH, in nine cases out of ten, we positively refuse, if it is brought before us as magistrates, to give any thing in the way of rent ; there will not, in my opinion, bie any disposition to build. 3103. Has there been any sort of jealousy, in the township of which you speak, of persons coming in and acquiring a settlement? — Yes, there has been great caution to prevent new settlements teing gained. a 1 03. Has the caution grown up of late in consequence of the severe pressure which has been felt from' too abundant a population? — I am not aware how long that jealousy has oxistsd in townships in which I have no property of my own, but where I ran speak with more certainty it has been an object with us to prevent new settlers. A gentleman has lately otiered to lay out 30,000/. on an estate of mine, and I have declined it, to prevent settlements. 2104. Is it possible for a poor person coming into a parish and occupying one of those cottages, to obtain a settlement ? — There have been a great many settlements improperly gained in this way ; a person having property in one township and also in an adjoinmg one, will frequently give such an interest and put a man into such a situation in that parish where he has little property, as to relieve the other parish wliere he has a greater one. 2105. Is it possible, since Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act, to obtain a settlement in that way?.— No, the tenement must be iu the same parish ; he cannot do it by cottages, unless they let for 10/. a year. 2106. Have you any apprehension that in case of those cottages being vacant in consequence of the abstraction of the poor, it would be to the interest ofany partiea to introduce single men into them, hiring the service of those single men for a year, for the purpose of establishing those individuals as parishioners, and consequently enabling them to occupy those tenements afterwards as married persons? — I have no apprehension whatever of that, certainly. 2 1 07. Are master manufacturers in your townships in the habit of taking ap- prentices ? — I believe they would not call themselves master manufacturers ; but it is a common thing fur a weaver who has considerable premises, to take apprentices into his house. 2108. Are ths weavers carrying on manufactories in your neighbourhood, much in the habit of taking apprentices r — Yes, they are. ' 3109. Has oil EMIGRATION FROM THft UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. jii 3109. Hu that practice of late incraaaed or diminbhed?— I cannot »peak tu the absolute fact, hut I am sure there is so much vigilance on the part of the overseers, that they prevent the introduction of any strangers into tlieir townships as apprentices. ai 10. If any apprentice sboold be taken by a weaver, and should want parochial relief, would not the orerseera object to his receiving any parochial relief during the time of his apprenticeship 1 — As a magistrate I should feel mysielf obliged to order relief for the apprentice. am. Should you not feel yourself called upon to oblige the master to jve him r— Not in a case of sickness. ana. Upon what party does the expense of removal of a pauper who has not a settlement, and has no claim upon parish relief, fall?— The practice is this; a pauper belonging to a distant settlement, but resident in any given township, applies for relief to the overseer of that particular township in which he is resident ; he probably, in the first instance, declines relieving him because he belongs to another parish ; the pauper then comes before the magistrates, and stales his case of distress ; if the magistrates consider the application as proper, relief is imme- diately ordered on the township in which he is resident ; the overseer then sets his wks to work, and finds out to what township the person belongs, and the overseer of that parish to which he belongs, repays to the overseer of the parish where he is the expense incurred. aii3. Is there no practical difficulty in obtaining the repayment of the expenses, or is there so much litigation you do not actually enforce the claim ? — In a general way the expenses are recovered without much difficulty. 3114. Do you often proceed practically to remove the pauper to the place of his settlement ? — Yes. 9J15. Upon what township do the expenses of his removal fall? — Upon the township removing. aii6. Do not the claims from persons who have no right to apply to the poor- rate, constitute a very heavy burthen upon them in severe cases of distress?— > Yes, certainly ; there are constant claims, which no person living in that country can refuse. 3117. Are not the claims from persons who have no strict right to apply to the parish for relief, almost as burthensome, in point of appeal to humanity, as tlie claims of those who have a right r — Quite as much in point of humanity ; but in point of law, if the overseers appeal to the decision of the magistrate, be lieels com- pelled to refuse relief, except in a case of sickness or very great distress. 3118. In the case of distribution of charitable funds, is there any distinction taken between those who have legal claims, and those who have not? — Not the slightest in the district in which I have acted, which contains from thirty to forty thousand inhabitants. 3119. Supposing you could remove a portion of those who had a legal settle-, ment in the parish, would not the burthen remain in a great measure unaJleviated, unless you could take measures for the removal of that portion who make an appeal to your charity, if they cannot make a legal claim on the poor-rales ? — The claim on one's charitable feeling would be the same, but the claim on the land would not be the same ; for though the person having ability would feel himself strongly ur^d to give to those having no claim, the farmers would be relieved by an abstraction of the population, and they would not incur auy thing material in the shape of poor* rates, by those places being filled up by strangers. 3120. In case a small manufacturer should let his cottages for 3/. a year to an Irishman when trade was depressed, though that family would not have a claim upon the poor-rates, would not the presence of that family, when trade was very much depressed, be a burthen nearly as great as that of persons who were parishioners ? — It would be a burthen on our feelings, and on the purse of those who had the means, but cot a burthen on the ratie payers, as such. 2131. In providing for the morality and general discipline of the parish, would not they constitute almost as great a burthen as the presence of persons having legal, settlements ? — They would have all the claims to assistance in education, and assist- ance in sickness from the dispensaries and local charitable institutions, but it wouM not be thought necessary, nor would it be legal, for the parish officer to relieve them. 3123. Has not an Act recently passed, enabling you to pass to Ireland any Irish pauper who may apply for relief?' — I am sorry to say that the expense incurred 550. E e 3 under Caq. «9 Mucb, ita7. I/' ? If I'l '?1) ' mUiam HultoH, •l9 March, 2M MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BBFORE SELECT COMMITTEE * under that Act, prevents its provMiona from being mrried into effect The expenw incurred by the county of LtncMter lait year, for timply removing Iruh pauper* from Liverpool to Dublin, was 4,000/. 2 1 23. That was not an expense borne by any particular parish i — No, a county rate spread over the townships. 2134. Were the cases of extreme distress you have slated to the Committee, cases of persons bavins a right on the parish, or not having?- Of the cases of very severe distress which I have mentioned, one was living on the township to which be belonged, the other was not. a 1 25. Could such cases as those you have mentioned, of persons dying fo want, have existed in the case of persons having a claim upon that parish ; would not the magistrates interfere ?— Yes, I am quite sure that the magistrates, the persons in authority, and the more respectable part of the inhabitants, must have been unaware of the extent of distress which prevailed ; though in the constant habit of visiting the poor for years, I had no idea of such distress, till I visited under the London Committee. 3136. Do not vou therefore consider those extreme cases to have been in a freat degree accidental ? — I do not think th^re are many quite parallel cases ; -but think the people are every day getting 'kito such a state of additional distress, from the total want of bedding and clothes; ^he whole township where hand-loom weaving prevails will be soon in the same state of distress. I have pointed out two strong cases, but if I thought that the patience of the Committee would allow it, out of the six in every hundred, I could detail nearly similar circumstances of woe. 2137. Supposing the parishioners were to be removed from the cottages built by Friendly Societies, and they were to be reinhabited by Irish, who might become chargeable upon the parishes if suffered to remain, do you not think that there would be a practice of informing those persons, that if they came there would i.ot be any disposition to relieve them in case of distress P— They woald be di^cou'nged in every way. 3198. Do you think that atiy disposition exists among the masters to keep^up an excess of population to enable them to command cheap labour ? — I tbiuk not, because machmery is superseding the use of manual labour. 2139. Are you quite certain Siat the weavers in West Houghton are in the habit of taking apprentices? — Yes, certainly. 3130. What is the rate of agricultural wages in your township ? — I do not know what the farmers give, but I give I4«. a week to every one- of my men on a large form ; I have not reduced them. 9131. Are there power-loom factories in West Houghtuu ? — No, there are not. 3132. If you had had pOwer-loom manufactories in Weet Houghton, would they not have contributed in some degree to your relief? — I cannot answer that question. 3133. Do you not think that it would be practicable to make the persons pos- sessing the houses to which those Irish or other strangers might flock, feet more bensib^, in times of adversity, the burthen, either from charity or by levies, of sup- porting them ? — I think that compelling the proprietors of cottage property to pay the rates instead of the occupiers, would have that effect 2134. Have the overseers of the poor any power whatever to prevent any weaver from tidiinz an apprentice ? — They have not. 3135. If the master is unable to maintain his apprentice during the period of his apprenticeship, is not the parish obliged to maintain th( apprentice as well as the master ? — ^The parish is. ' 3136. Does not some part of the expense of removing Irish paupers fall upon the removing parish, beyond that expense which falls upon the county rate ? — Certainly. 2137. Is there any other subject upon which you would wish to offer any remarks to the Committee? — I should wish to express my very strong opinion, in contra- distinction to that of the last witness, as to the effects of the contributions iirom the London Relief Committee : Nothing but the donations of that society could have saved us from famine ; they have induced the most delightful intercourse between the different ranks of the community ; and the practical result has been, that in our populous district not one instance of riot or disturbance has occurred^ ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM ,7. 993 Sfihbati, 31* die Mavtii, 1887. ALtLXANDER BARING, E8QU1HE, IN TIIR CilAlli. in a Mr. William SuJtcw Fitz/iug/i, culled in ; und Examined. 2138. WHAT is the nature of your duties at Liverpool, wiili respect to pas- sengers leaving the kingdom in considerable numbers on l>o«rd of merchant vessels ? 1 was appointed by the American Chamber of Commerce in Liverpool, in con- sequence of the frauds and impusitions-that had been practised upon passengers for some years previous to the appointment; it was in the Spring of 1833 when the appointment took place, and my business is to attend principally to steerage pas- •Mgera going out from that port. 2139. Do you hold a permanent tituation there? — I hold the appointment so long a» it is considered that I act consistently with the nature of my engagement. 3140. Do you receive a salary? — I receive a commission derived from the money paid by the passengers, it is paid bv the shipowners. 3141. What is the amount of it : — It is hve per cent commission upon the passage money. 3143. What power have you of enforcing that, is it by any Act of Parliament? — No, it is by contract with the merchants. 3143. Do the shipowners agree that you shall have five per cent upon the passage money ? — The shipowners place the vessels in my hand to procure passengers tor them ; and when the passengers come down, I direct them to proper vesseb, fur which the shipowners pay me after that rate. 3144. How long have you been so occupied ? — Since April 1833. 3145. Are you agent for the ship ;!*herwise, or merely as regards the passengers? — Only OS it regards the passengers. 3140. By steerage passengers you mean the poorer class of emigrants? — Yes, I do. 3147. Have you any thing to do with the cabin passengers? — Yes, so for as making arrangements for them, and entering their names upon the muster roll. 3148. Has the number been considerable of those steerage passengers going out in any vessels to America ? — Yes, very considerable. 3149. Does it continue to be so at the present time ? — Yes, it continues, and seems to be increasing. 3150. To what parts do they principally go ? — Principally to the United States of America, chiefly to New York and Philadelphia, and some few to Boston. 3151. Have you any thing to do with those who go to our own colonies in America?— Yes; but there are not many who have gone, in the last two or three years, to the British colonies. 3153. Have you not a good many timber ships arriving from those colonies at Liverpool ? — A great many ships go from Liverpool to the ports of New Brunswick and Quebec. 3153. Do they not carry out passengers? — They would do it if passengers applied ; but very few passengers go to Quebec from Liverpool. 3154. Do timber ships generally go out with light cargoes from Liverpool? — Many of them only in ballast, and some with only part cargoes. 3155. From your experience, do you think that some legal protection to the poorer class of passengers or emigrants is necessary, or do you think that such poor persons may be safely trusted to make their own engagements with masters of vessels bouud to different parts of America, without any restrictions other than the self-interest of each partjr may naturally produce, without any specific law being cessary, made for the purpose? — I think some protection is absolutely ne- 2156. Have you any facts to show that legislative protection u necessary, and if so, be pleased to state them ? — There are some facts stated in the Report of the 550. £e4 American Mr. S, Filikugh. ji March, ll«7. Mr. ly.s.rtiikugk. 31 Mkrcb, M 334 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT CUMMITTCE American Cliiiiii()cr of Cuinmorce in Liverpool, printed in tlw Appendix lo fht Ktport of ttie Coinmittee un Emipttion, in page igd 2157. Have yuu any others to •tate?— Caaea of fraud and iinpoaiUon are w- ciirring in Liver|)uol every week upon the |)oorer claMct of eniiaraott; and diirkig tlic liiit vcar, a caie uf very groaa impoaitioii occurred, in which tlie merchanla iiilerffred, and pruitoctitcd the parlies to conviction for ttie fraud. I cooerive Huu>e legal protection \» necessary, 'Wause it is out of the power of the caigrants, who are generully poor, either to obtain the legal remedy tbeuiaelMs in consc- f|uenco of their [wverty, ur to wait to obtain it at the quarter sessiom, even if titey had money, in conscnucnce of it being necessary to proceed un their voyagf. There has alsu been placed in the hands of Mr. Horton, a letter from Liverpool, stating the fact I have just now mentioned, as to the in)p» Perhaps I should be understood better, if I explain the nature of Uie impositiom and frauds practised. The poorer class of emigrants who come down to a sea- port arc generally ignorant, they have probably never been in any sea-port before ; they do not know the nature of the vessels, or the kind of bargain they ought to make ; and unprincipled persons, engaged in trade, and there are many such en- gaged in that trade, find it their interest to induce those people to entrust their money in their bonds under false representations, and histead of paying the owner of the ship for their passage, they send them on board in some rostances without having paid the money they have previously received ; it was for that they were prosecuted durinf^ the last year. Another mode of imposition is, that they f^e- quently obtain their money under the pretence that the ship is going to sea in two or three days, and keep them there three or four weeks, or more, for which they have no redress ; if they apply to the magistrates, the magistrates tell them that the parties have broken their contract, and that they must appeal to a jury at the quarter sessions. 3162. Do you think it .possible by any legislation to provide for all the minute circumstances of oppression or grievance that may arise between the parties? — I think it possible to place wilfiin their power legal redress by such an Act as this, by referring all such matters to the decision of the mogistrates, who shall have power to summon the parties before them; the sime power is given to the mogis- trateti, under similar circumstances, in other Acts of Parliament ; I do not think any inconvenience would arise from it. 2163. Huve you read over the printed imper, entitled, A Bill to repeal certain parts of what has been called the Passengers Act, and the manuscript draft of another Bill foi*the sunie purpose? — I have. May I be allowed tu state what I forgot to mention before ; there was a case occurred in London similar to what occurred last year in Liverpool, I dare say so; je evidence ipay be procured in London respecting it ; the passengers were engaged, tlie charterer, it appeared, hvfi not paid the shipowner, and the parties were without any remedy. 2164. In those cases of fraud, the parties all had t^eir redress at common law, if they had been able to wait and proeecute their case ?— 'Certainly. 2165. Do you think that the last mentioned Bill, in manuscript, if passed inco a law, would be sufficient to afford fair and adequate protection td-^'the poorer class of emigrants ? — I think not quite. 2166. Will you state the nature of liie legal protection which you deem neces- sary to be afforded to the poorer class of emigrants ? — I have read over the maliu* script Bill carefully, and if I may be permitted, I will read to the Committee the remarks I put down u\mn paper while the Bill was in my possession. In the manuscript Bill tiiere appears to be no clause npplying to' vessels having cargo on boaid.aiid currying passengers; after the second clause, the third section of the 6Ui ncfces- rnahu- eb the n the cargo of the 6Ui by f^lw re of (ailing; ON EMIGRATION FROM TH£ UNITED KINGDOM; iSa; iaS <6|)i oiOtotffe IV. r. I iff. might with propriety \x inivrtetli in Uiut lectton, two Ions in defined to be six feet by two fleet and a half, and the whole heif^ht between deckJ. In the eniimeratim of prnvisioni, in the third clause, |K>tiiu>«;« ought to be included, as a dttucriptiun of food ^rnerally taken h)f emigrants , tuo puundi, instead of one (wtind and a half p«r day, is, in my opinion, tiic loHcst (|imnlity that should lie innrted in the Act. The qualificntiunit of tho lurgcon or medical man, in the fnurt h < umr, !>eem not to bo suificientlv defined ; if tiic qualifications art to be the sami as those in the 6th (icorge IV. c. 116. sec. 13. it would be belter to copy the phraseology of that Act, if otherwisr, to state them with precision. There is no regulation respecting a medicine chest. The Tith clause appears to be ninbiguous : if it is intended, tliat no vessel, although short of her full complement ot passengers, shall be ollowed to carry any part of her cargo, provisions, &c lietwcen decks, it will be very oppressive in its operation, by pre- venting many vcs'-ols from taking passengers that have excellent accommodations, and tlw owners 01 which ure wilhng to take a limited numUr only ; if it is intended to apply to such vessels only as have on board the full coiiiplenicnt of one passenger to every two tons, it may easily he evaded, and will always he evaded by takmg o. Is the disposition on the part of the poor of Lancashire to emigrate to the United States, instead of the British colonies in America ? — Yes, it is at present, in conseq^uence of many of theujbaving friends settled there, and in consequence of the growth of manufactures in ^ Northern States. 3301. When you sty that the provisions for the passage would not exceed 35«. or sot;, is your opinion formed under the idea that the provisions of the Passengers Act wQuld bie emorced ? — No ; the provisions mentioned in the Act would cost about two pounds, but they are not fit for them, nor such as they are used to, nor such as have been generally taken. 3302. Is there any law regulating the treatment of passengan in' American veslds?— There is a law of the United States regulating the number of pa»sengen in American vessels. . 350. Ff2 .... ^3303. Does '§'■ d^. 4A; Wf \< I V I n ^. 918 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ^•^►' Mr. W. S. FUihugh, 31 March, l83^ V 2203. Does that law contain ai^ enactment as to the species of provisions to be , provided ? — My memory does not enable me to recollect, but I think it does. 2204. £ver since you have been conversant with providing passages for persons wishing to emigrate, tbe present Passengers Act has been in force ? — There was an Act previous to the present one, but the provisions were pretty similar. . 2205. In point of fact, ever since youJiave been employed upon thb duty, as to passengers, the law has been the same as that now in force ? — Yes, except as to the number. . 2206. Did you ever know any inconvenience arise to passengers from the ships in which they have gone? — I have seen ships over-crowded from want of room. 2207. It is not consistent with your knowledge, that any |M«itive evil has arisen from that circumstance ? — The evil consists, in my opinioD, in the inconvenience to which the {>a8sengers have been subject during the voyage, and of which they were not aware when they made the engagement. , .^ 2208. Have you ever heard any complaibts upon the subject ? — Often. ■,;f 3209. Have you known such evils to reiult from the Passengers Act? — Yes. 2210. And you thipk the Act, as it stands, b insufficient to prevent it ?-^^^ is .chiefly where the Act has not been put in force. . . <# ' ■ -"kf 2211. The alterations you have suggest|d are, to render the provisions of the (Passengers Act, as it now stands, more specific ? — There are some additional clivuaes in the manuscript Bill, on which my observations are ma(^e ; the manu8'|y||ft Bill varies from the Act now in force considerably. ^, - 2212. Did more passengers go to the British colonies some years ago, than now ? —Yes, from Liverpool, some years ago; but at present I do not conceive there .are on the whole fewer that go ; the alteration is, that they no\{ go from Ireland instead'of going from Liverpool; vessels. are chartered at Liverpool and taken over to Ireland, where they embark. 2213. Do you happen to know whether as many go from Scotland as went a few .years ago? — My information does not extend to Scotland. ^. 3214. At present the power of going ad emigrants is pretty much limited to those who have got a little money, is it not; persons in the state of paupers Hale no means of goingi-— No, they h|ive not ; and I have letters here from many manufacturers requesting me to obtain service for then(i,^and have theirjoassage paid over. < . aei5.< Have any proposals been made to vouiitom golbemen in the couatiyt or landowners, stfiting their readiness to provide a fund to send out an^ of the poorer \a|9nigrant8? — When I left Liverpool, there' was an overseer of a parish in Kent JRlengaging a passage for a nupber of poor people in his parish to gp out to New Yoi;k, f ,^^^x^ during the last two years th« passages to the United States of a considerable number have been paid by parishes. > . 2216. Do you think if an increased &cility was given to obtain giwats of land in the British Settlements, that that woUld encourage emigration from any>of Ibe -districts in En^and where the hand-loom weavers wish to refaidfe? — I am satisfied "^v it would, provided it.was connected with the lAeans of getlingy out there, wbicbat , present they do not possess. 2217. Is there note remedy now existiqe at common law, both here ar-* on the bother sidei6f Ihe Atlantic, wheMier in the ^nited States or the British colQiues, for frauds committed ■ by masters of ves8els,'^r improper treatment of the pa%|iepgers , while on board ?•— There is a remedy at common 2218. In point of fact are the regulations of tbi' fit^lfitit Passengers Act ever Vccnplied with, or are they generally evaded?— As to thi» numbers they take on i board, th& Act is complied with ; aajn provisions, I do no|4hink it is; no notice i» -taken of the provisions put on board. *'!' '* 'V sag. Do you imagine that those suggestions which you oflfer, with regprd to \ the doctor and the quantity of medicine, would be more likely to be coniplied wi(h ^^.than the*exisling- regulation? — I am not sfitisfied of the necessity for a doctor to ^^i.the United States or the British possessions; there is a' doctor required by the manuscript Bill. *'' J* •; -^^ : \\ 2320. Upon '} Cii .*& ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : 1827. 839 •"^^ Upon - 3220. Upon the whole, do you not think t%|t the whole matter of provbions might safely be lefl to the prudence of the passengers themselves i — I think not quite ; I have been told, by the masters of vessels, of persons secreting themselves on board, and others coming on board without provisions. 2221. Have you ever known a y case of serious want or distress in any vessel since 1833, on its passage either to New York, or to British America? — No, never. 2222. And yet during that time the regulations with regard to the quantity of provisions have been eVMted ?— With regaid to the quality rather than as to the quantity. 2223. Do you brieve that the regulation as to quantity has been complied with.r — As to a sufficient quantity it has been complied with, but not as to the kind, because the parties trho emigrate have not been in the habit of using; -such pro- visions as the Act requires to be put on board. , ^ , / : t,r;..i 2224. You stated they used potato^, sometimes? — Generally. . .2225. Are you not of opinion, that if the regulations of the Passengers Act '^dtre altered, that it would not be necessary to have one set of regulations for 'le passa^ to New York, and another to Quebec or Halifax?— I should think Cie Dill might embody th^ regulations ^as to both ; it is so in the manuscript Bill I iw raad* * TiM. How is it possible tb'carry into effect the regulations respecting the quan- 'tity ofeprovisions, in the various small ports of the kingdom? — ^There are no ports where vessels clear out where there is not a collector of the customs, and it is the duty of his officers to see that the regulations of the Act are enforced. 2227. You state they aire practically- enforced in Liverpool, in consequence of your being appointed an agent to see that they are enforced - — I was not appointed ° for the purpose of enforcing the regulations of the Act of Parliament, but rather to secure, under the sanction of the merchants of Liverpool, an office where the emigrants mi^ht find fair dealing. ■ ' -^ii* ,r I 2228. Xo point of fact, you see that they are fairly dealt by ?— It u my duty to iim the eariy part of April to' September or October. < 2333. it any alt|r^tion were made in the Passengers Act, would it' not be very l,c(^venient that tboM^ provbions should be ^rried into 'effect at an eaijy period?-^ V It would b« desiraDfl^i'tainly that it should be carried into effect early.' 3234. Most o^ihe ships sail in the month of May ? — A g|peat many sail in June . and July. 2235. With regard to the manufacturers that you state go out in such numbers, do they carry out any implements of their trade with them? — They arc not allowied by law to take out certain articles relating to the liaen, cottbn, silk, and woollen manufactures. 550. , Ff3 S' 2236. Are ,4- , ' »- ' ■■■-■■ '■■ Mr. 31 MaKh, 18*7. ' 1 ( H tl \\^ f I f^' ! ■i,^ Mr. tr.s.Fuaugi. 31 March, 1827. 930 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 3336. Are yoa inclined to tfiiidf tbey take them out chuidestindy to any extent? — Not to any great extent. 3337. From yoar situation, can you inform the Committee, whether there is a conDitifrable demand for operative weavers emigrating in die Unittd States?— There has been a greater demand than exists at present, in consequence of the low price of manufactured goods in this country. I understand the manufiwtures in the United States are not prospering, but, taotwithstanding that, the weavers are goins out fost, and I have letters, stating that they understand their prospect will be good In the United States. ^ 3338. There is at present a demand for an increase of population in the United States from this country? — ^There appears to be so. ' 3239. Can you ^vo the Committee any letters that will show the disposition that exists amott the mannfacturers to emisrate ? — I can leave these letters, which I wiU hand b. I have selected thne for uat purpose, from about 150 letters I have ,, received upon the same subject. [T^mtneudeSoeredmtkefoUowwgLetttri.] «'Sir, '• March 19, iSay^^fiiij^ ** I HAVE to inform yau, that cannot ^et ready to go to Portsmouth, so be will go in the same ship ii'ith the rest of his neighbours, to New York. Sir, you must do the beat you can for them, and state the loweit tl^ they can go for, as tb^ are poor wotking people that is driven from their h^es to seek a livins m a foreign land, having collected their little remains to go with, and they will but have little to stop in Liverpool, so I would have you to be particular about the time of sailing. The first family is and wife and eight children ; four sons, the first is twen^ years, the second eighteen, the third rixteen, the fourth thirteen and a half; four nrls, the first eleven years, the second eight, the third six, the fourth four; that mues ten in that family. The second family is widow herself and five son& ; one is twelve years old ; that makes six in that fiimily. The third family is and wife, and three dau^ters and one son ; one daughter a woman, one eight years olc^^iieoe twelve years, one six months ; son fifteen weeks old ; that is six in that family;' The fourth family, and wife, dau^ter seventeen yeats old, thirteen, eie^n and six months, ten,, niiCight, six, four, two and six months, six jnoiMtis ; tUw is deven in that famity. There is one man and his wife ; there is six men ; that is all at present; total forty- one. Sir, there is a woman of the name of from Darwen,* she wMnts to know what ship will sail the next^as she wants to go to her husband ; you know her husband, he sailed in the she sailed*on the 3d of January. Now, Sir, you must let me know by the return of post, as she may be making ready, as she wishes to sail on the first of April, anas soon after as possible. So I reauun " Yours, with the greatest respect. Directed to ' " " Mr. William S. Fitshugh, No. 1 1, Biook's-squar«, Cooper's-row, Liverpool." Sir, " H AVI NO, through the 14 May, i8i|0." got infonaation of your benevolent insti- tution, I shall with gratitude avail' myself of the beaefit it may afford in giving the necessary information respecting passages to the States. I am a weaver hy tnuk^ ' and has for some yearb back baui engaged in the management of poirarrlooms ; I have a wife and four children, the oldest eight years of aige. My object is to go to the United States, but not knowing at what place if %ould be likely for to meet with immediate employ, I would be thankful for information on that point. A friend of mine intends gomig with me, he is a dresser for powei -looms ; he has a wife and t^o children, the oldest four years of age; but I fear his means will not be sufficient to accomplish his desire ; he can raise but 8(. and it is not in my power to be of any service to him, as 14/. is all I can realize. You now see our situation; 'if you think what I have stated will be sufficient to pay passage add secure provisions, with the necessary expenses of convi^ng our fiumnei to Liverpool, we will be very thankful if you would engage a passage for us to wliat- , ( , - evOT i f ^ ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1897. 231 erer place you think moat likely to find employmeat. We cannot be ready sooner than the 'JOlb of this month, and to stop much longer would be attended with incoofcnience. Please let us know if certificates will be required in passing the Custom. lo doing these tbiagB* you will very much oblige your humble Servant." * Directed " W. S. Fitzburgh, PMscngert Oflke, ' 11, Brook's-squareMCooperVrow, Liverpool." " To the American Chamber of Commerce. . " Gentlemen, " May 39, 1836." M, Wb would take it as a particular favour, if you would state the rate of passan for a man and his wife, with one child, without victuals ; what for a man and hu wife, and five children, all under twelve years of age, without victuals. — P. S. Please to state rate of passage witliout victuals, for one man, all to Boston. We are cotton spinners, and could wish to chanee our situation for that of a better, as we bear our business is improving very much in the United States of America. We reqaain, Sir, your very bumble Servant, . ^ Directed to '< Mr. W. S. Fitzhuglv Coopcr's-rov, MverpooL" .»* 'V.J. llr. H^. a. FuaugL >8«7. s "•«ir, " Aug. the 28th, 1826." " I Hops you will excuse my boldness in taking the liberty in addressing thae few lines to^j^OQ, I, and others, wishing to inform you, that i and others wffb to go to America, and we desire your assistaAce how to proceed, and to put ui m the way. I now inform vou of the place that we are intending to gpi the name of the pWe is three miles from America ; this is our information that wrhave obtained. The name of one of the employers is cotton manufacturer ; the establishment is cotton spinning, covton weaving, and looting the same. I will take the management Af spinning if I can |et a situation, as being in that occupirtion upwards of 24 years, and has assuted 10 gailing six new mills of oittoa spinaing. The next is my friend ' cotton carder for 26 years, and has assisted in gaitiog ten new cotton mills. The next is an engineer, and is qualified to take the manage- ment of an engine in all its branches, and is also a coal niiner, and understand- ing its branches. I ' have four sons and two daughters, all qualified for work, three spinners, one machine maker. has two spinners, and two girls that work in the preparing part has one son a joiner, and four daughters that work in the preparing part, that is, in the card-room. I must say that self prais^ is no commendation, but I can assure you that t^py are as useful as any three families that can be produced in Lancashire. We have the means in our ownv hands of getting over, that is, paying our own passage ; we are all in work, and do not intend to remove until sprmg. We could wish, if possible, to get information firom the firm above mentioned, as we. have a great de^irj^ to tread upon the land of freedom.' The recson we wrote to you is, by one of your cards being out into our hands f we hope you viill be hones^ and please to give us ;every information, you can, and inform us bow soon we may obtain a letter from the firm. Sir, please to write by return of post. Direct §ai ^, ^ Lancashire. .'*. " Your most obeoient and humble Servant, u «» ■ piKcted to " Mr. W. S. Fitibugh, Ka. 1 1, BfookWquaie, Cooper's-row, Liverpool." it i mr^f' rfi •(5«^ Ff4 . " ^f ♦# w / i lit II il ■■ ■ I I ' ^:i . .rVl W.8.FUiiitgk. — r*- — ., 3i'M«rcb, 1897. 338 MlNUtES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE " Sir, " May 30, 1826." " This u to inform you I am intending to go to either New York or PhiladeN phia, and what will the pascage be if it is paid down ? But I thinic I cannot raiae the money before I land, because I have a quantity of goods to dispose of that I really cannot make my money of in this country. But further, 1 will hire myself for six or twelve months at my business ; or your captain may bind me first for that time, if he will give a wages that will keep me and my wife, for there is no good to be done in this part. I have a few more friends will go, if you will take the hiring proposal. I would wish you to write by return of post, whether you will take the proposal of the before-mentioned, and after you have sent me an answer I will pay you for the same. When you write, direct to and you will oblige me, I could wish to wil about August or September vessel." ^ ,,, Directed " Mr. W. S. Fitzhugh, ;'i'i r« l^ . ,j^" II, Brook's-square, Cpoper's-row, Liverpool." " Sir, " 5th Nov. iSae."' " Havimo seen one of your cards, whereby it appears you are in the liabif^of engaging emi^ant passengers to America, and also affording them useful informa- tion, I have, m consequence of that, taken the liberty to desire you will have the goodness to state the lowest price for which you could engage a combany of pas- sengers either for Philadelphia or Baltimore (suppose ten in number ;) and also to ask, whether you can point out any establishment in the United States where they are likely to want a number of intelligent operatives or mechanics. In like manner, I beg you will inform me whether you will have a ship going out to either of the above places on or about the first day of January 1827. ^ , ," Yours, &c. &c. &c. Directed to "" ' ' * " " W. S. Fiiahugh, Cpoper's-row, Liverpool." t :fr '■•■■■ ■ '■ ■•■'■:•*»- r - <. . "Sir, " ♦ February 28th, 1827." ' "In consequence of the numerous applications made at this office by persons wishing to emigrate to the United States, as to the proper offices to apply at for information respecting freight and passage, we are disposed to recommend the as a desirabte medium for advertising ; and, from its extensive 'Circulation in this and the adjoining counties, it is highly probable that much ■valuable information would be conveyed into those districts, where, the present -commercial distress prevails in an eminent d^ree. All favours will be thankfully received, and promptly attended to. * " I am, Sir, I* ■ « H' K 'siH-' %. K'-ii 1^.. . \\ ' ' ''■'. . ■ M 'r ;• .. .'rt • 4 J:i'^ J . '• aV,- ■'-...: :. S^-n. ,C, ily ' «»',:.• ..'.,■■.'■': f ii'. , (f «« T Sir, rmUfti .^ Feb. 5th, 1827.* I BEO permissioRr to say, tliat two competent managers, fitters-up and engine- builders^ which two mechanics are thoroughly acquainted with all kinds and addi- tions of the steam engine, and a great mar-, other machineries, such as weigfaing- machines, mill wrightin^, corn-mill manufacturers, &c. ; and one of them is greatly acquainted with blast-nimaces, i. e. the managing of them; the other with the art of mixing metals, commonly called a reener-out or a refinery mari, i. e. one who works n refining fire. They are both competent managers and manufacturers of pumps, &c. In reality, they are two of the first-rate common mechanics, and they can *» Ji *'-« •f'. ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDO\f: iSi7 33s c»n produce characters, as such, from their masters and from tliem for whom they have manufactured engines, &c. Sir, I solicit you, if you please, to write to me, Aying whether the two men can have their poaaage paid for them previous to their gomg 'on board of ship, to go into any part ofthe North of America, but New Ybrk is much desired, aad the time when the nent ship sails for New York. 4»>PImw to direct for ;onr. , " Sir, *' - ^ • •*••/*; I •;< " ' ^ V' In consequence of a note from ysij, in a letter setit me from Liverpool by , , I lake the liberty to write this to you, and request by return of postr if possible, au answer to the tolfowing queries : ist. When will the next vessel leave Liverpool for New York. 3d. What will be the lowest fare for a single' man's passage there ; what for a man and his wife, and three children. 3d. What will be the expense of provisions for the voyage ; in short, wiih how small a sun^ could a single man be sure of being taken from Liverpool to New York for, and the same as to a man with a family of 3 or 4 children. An answer from you to thesej questions wilt much oblige Yours truly. Mr. 31 March, 1847. N ■m- -can •^r "«ir, " June 5th, 1826." r ;" I SHALL thank you to send me correct information on the following heads of Emigratioii: ist. Is tliere any American vessel that will take passengers free, if they will be bound to serve for a limited time, for their passage, and how long, find what sort will suit best. 2d. What will be the fare, per head, if a few engage to work what they call their passage ove-. 3d. What is tlie lowest, per head, to go in, tbe steerage, having all things found by tlie captain, and what, if they pro- vision for themselves ; also, the time of sailing of any American vessel you think will suit the above questions. Please to direct as soon as possible by the post Pirect, . ." , .^ " Sir, " June nth, i8a6." ' " I COULD wish ybujto send me a few lines concerning a passage to the United States of America, as I am very desirous of going to that country, if it be possible that I can get there* for I have some friends in the county of La Fayette Province, in Pensylvania, if I was once there : therefore I could wish you to send me word how to proceed about going, and what you think is. the lowest possible fare^ to Pliiladelphta or Baltimore, as I am a poor man and can get no work here, and about a few months since could command as much money as would have taken met tbere well, but now is reduced to tlie small sum of four pounds, and is working for meat. I hope you will excuse tine for writing to you,, but as I could wish to be informed on the suhjecli and seeing There are several more are desirous to go, but I am very desirous to ^o, so I hope you will send me word bow to apply, and what you think of it, and wnte to me as soon as you can. Yours,. . ^ , i i" Sir, , " May 3d, i8a6." , " WE have a young man and his wife but no family, also a single young man, in this neighbourhood, desirous of going to New York or Boston, and they have desired me. to write to jjpju^ to know what is the most reasonable passage in the ■teerwge; also, whether bedp, or what furniture wouM be useful; also, what >t will cost to provide nroper provisions, in short boW much it will cost them from the time they go into' the' ship till they are landed. You will, I dare say, remember my brothel ( t ,- .; . going out and taking some men last summer. Tour answer to thif imuiediately will oblige. We. perceive some of the newspapers say there has been lome dbturbehces ttlid lioeslpst in it id all lies, every thing is very quiet, aiioL the people: will »11 defet^d: their own mills, twviiig pikes aqd fire-arms> ;i- • . .1;;'. ... "Your obedie^it Servant, 550. Cf ) .1'. ■'4 '^»'! = I •s*- ■ Mr. IV.S.fUxhvgh. gl Mnrcii, 1S97. 234 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE UEFOUt SELECT COMMITTEE " Sir, •• May 3d. i8ati."' " WE write unto you, to inform us whether there is any printers wanted in America, or not ; and if there is any wanted, will you have tiie goodness to write a few lines unto us, and the money you take for one, sail and victuals, from Liverpool to America. And will vou have the goodness to write the time yaur ships is going oflf; and if you write a few lines, direct it to calico- prmter, I forgot this, could you do such a thing as hire two ; if you could, write a few lines unto me as soon as you can make it convenient, and we will make you a visit." - - - 3240. Have you received any account from any of the poorest persons, of those whom vou ha\'j assisted to emigrate, of their present situation there? — I have seen letters from some of them to their friends, recommending them to come out to them ; a man will frequently go out and leave his family in England, having only money enough to take himself over, but by labouring there a year or a year and a half he obtained sufficient to send for his family ; that occurs every year ; and sometimes we have sivity or seventy individuals in a vessel, whose passages are paid in America by their friends, who have gone out without any property. 2341. Do you know the greatest quantity that went out last year? — I cannot with any positive certainty state the number that emigrated from Liverpool; it might be from fivet to six thousand. 2242. Do the vessels that go out generally go full of steerage passengers? — Not full; they have only one for every two tons of actual space; but generally, in consequence of having so many vessels going out, one for every five tons of register burthen is taken ; there are so many vessels going out from Liverpool, that there is no necessity to overload them, and where they have been overloaded, it arits^s entirely from the law permitting a great number to go in one vessel, hy which means it becomes the interest of the party to miake exertions to get one vessel, and oAe only, full. 2343. Is the tendency of voluntary emigration to the United States more to the northern or southern districts? — Entirely to the northern; there are non& go'to the southward of Virginia, or Maryland. 3244. Nor to the northward of New York? — Yes, some to Boston. ■ 11 : Mr. ITumtu Adam*. Mr. Thomas Adams, callied in ; and Examined! 3345. WHERE do you reside ?— At Mildenhallt in Suffolk. '2246. Will you state shortly the circumsttince regarding the poor in your parisb? ■"^At the present moment, the number of persons paymg rates are 268; those unable to pay, 315; paupers in the workhouse, 37 ; maintained out of the bouse, from the poor-rates, 87; makinj^ a total of 124; — 110 employed in useless or'un> necessary labour, 69 men and 41 boys. The Amount of the poor-rates in iSa3» was 2,714/. 5*. !854. Is it the opinion of the London Committee as a body, that relief afforded by means of emigration is not only the most effectual, but in point of fact the cheapest means of relief which can be given in the present state of distress? — It is now decidedly the opinion of the committee, that it is both the cheapest and the most effectual method. That it is the cheapest, may be proved by a very simple calculation ; that it is (be most effectual is matter of opinion, about which this Committee are much more competent to form their judgment than we are. We certainly ore of that opinion, thinking that it is extremely advantageous to draw off the redundant population, as not only increasing the employment of those who remain, and raising their wages, but also as taking off the materials of future distress. ' ' 3355. Are the Committee to understand from the reservation which your Lord- ' ship mentions as to the disposal of the money being satisfactory to the Relief Committee, that they are disposed to consider as satisfactory the expenditure of 60/. per family up?n their locatbn in the provinces, according to the plan pro- posed ? — I understand quite so ; and any doubt which may exist as to the future disposal of the money voted by that committee, does not refer to the au^ount which is to be expended upon the cost of emigration, but rather to the description of persons for whose advantage it is to be expended. I will explain in a few words what I mean : the London Committee for the Relief of the distressed Manufacturers have all alor; considered that enough has not been done in Scotland, by tbG inhabitants r< that part of the United Empire, for the relief of their local distresses. We have had considerable difficulty not only in the first instance in obtaining con* tributions, but in obtaining information from Scotland as to the mode in which they have distributed our grants; and it is only within the last week that we have bad any such account of the distribution of our grants as can be deemed at all' satis* factory. We have voted very large sums to Scotland, wbicb we believe have been judiciously and effectively distributed ; but we think we have not been treated with that confidence by the managers of charitable funds in Scotland which the extent of our libeiality to them deserved. I do not speak of the local contributions in the respective districts, but of the central committee in Edinburgh. I do not wish to cut the least reflection on the exertions made in Lanarkshire and Renfrewshire, wnioh hsve been highly praiseworthy. Our receiptsyrom Scotland have been almost none; and we ane persuaded thattlie great mass of subscriptions which have beea raised for the relief of the distressed manufacturers in this country has been con- 550. G g 3 tributed liie Lord Biah(ip of Chtttir. 3 A)>ril, 1817. ii6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE I I 3 -^P^". 1117. Tb« Lord tributed under an impressiun, that it was to lie cliietly, it' not entirtly, expended in BItbop of Ckttttr. relieving the pressure which bore so heavily upon our own inanufucturins districts, ' more properly so called. We have not indeed acteil strictly and exclusively upio thut principle in the distribution of our fundf, but if in apportioning the sum which we liave voted for the promotion of Eniinration, it shouUl ap|)ear to the public that by far the greater portion of it has sone (o assist in the emigration of weavers froai Scotland, some dissatisfaction wouliT perhaps be excited in the minds of those who contributed to the fund ; and that, 1 think, is one of the great difBculties which embarrass the present proceeding of the London Committee m conjunction with the Emiarolion Committee. I am not prepared to say that we must not brave thai opinion of a part of the public, but I am quite persuaded that there would be soma dissatisfaction if we made a very large grant for emigrants, the greater proportion of which was to goto Scotland. 3356. Is your Lordship aware that very extensive preparations hove been mide, and are in a great state of forwardness at this moment, for removing omigranti from Rcnfrewsiiire and Lanorkshire, which tliere is reason to believe have not taken place in the manufacturing districts of England ? — I have understood so only from • statement made by Mr. Stanley, on Saturday last, to the Relief Committee. I do not mean to infer that wo have given to Scotland more than Scotland wanted, or nearly so much ; but we have given more to Scotland, in proportion to the contri- butions from Scotland, than we have to the manufacturing districts here, in propor- tion to their contributions ; and I think it ought not to be forgotten, that the most distressed of the manufacturing districts in England have, to the last, contributed most liberally to our funds. 2257. Are there any means of ascertaining the amount of subscriptions to thi London Relief Committee which have been obtained from the several districts of England and Scotland ? — Certainly. 3358. Has your Lordship any reoson to believe that any of tl.e contributions made by the Relief Committee have been to the efi'ect of producing any permanent relief, or that they have not been entirely appropriated hitherto to supply the means to the sufferer of living from day to day ? — I do not apprehend that any measures which we have adopted can properly, be called measures tending to the permanent relief of the poor ; but we have certainly endeavoured to combine the two objects, of present relief with present usefulness and labour ; and to that end, we have made considerable grants, for the purpose of enabling the local committees, and latterly under the direction of Mr. M'Adam, to repair the roads of those districts where 1 uch repairs were much wanted. We have not devised (indeed I do not see bov it is . possible we should .devise) any permanent employment for.the men, or point out any new channels into which their labour could be penqanently diverted ; but we have been always desirous of doing something more than merely relieving the present wants of nature ; we have always wished, if possible, to teacb tigie poor people that they must not expect eleemosynary relief, unless they were disposed to give, in return, such a proportion of their labour as could be reasonably asked for. 3359. Is your Lordship of opinion there has beep a less disposition on the pdrt of the richer classes in Scotland to contribute to the relief of the distressed persons in tliat country, than has existed, in a proportionate manner to their means, in this ?— I really do not possess data sufficient to give an opinion, which would involve in some measure the character of that country ; I really would not give an opinion upon that subject ; but thus much I must say, that we did not in the outset of our labours experience that cordiality on the part of the leading people of Scotland which we thought we bad a right to expect ; they came and asked for large sums, but they would not tell us what they would do at home. It was a long; time before the Edinburgh committee would hold free communication with us ; it was not until we made an express stipulation that they should not have any money from us, unless they gave us an account of the sums which they raised, and their expenditure at home, that we could estabibb any thing like communicatioo with them. ' aa6o.. Your Lordship had opportunities, not only as connetted with the London Rdief Committee, but also in your personal visitation of your diocese, of. making yourself well acquainted with the stale, of the lower classes within it ; perhaps your Lordship will be good enough to inform the Committee which of the manu- •• (>-> ■'■•■. faciuring ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: l8a^ tjy fcctarins districts ore comprised within tlie dioccMj of Cheater ?— 'I'he whole of Lencunire and Cheshire, a part of tlie West Hiding of Yorkshire, the southern partt of Cuiiiberiand and Writmorland, but I hardly know whether that is to be called a manufacturing di»trict. aabl. In general terms, the Committee may understand the diocese of Chester eomprises almost the whole of the northern £nf(iish manufacturing districU?— With the exception of the clothing district of Yorkshire, a small proportion of which only is within the diocese uf Chester. aaCa. In the visitations which your Lordship has made in your diocese, what has appeared to you to be the general slate of the lower and middling classet ftt this moment? — In the course of the lost summer I had occasion to go twice into what may perhaps be considered the most distressed part of the manufac- turing district at that time; comprising Manchester, Bollon-in-thc-Moors, New- church in Rossendale, the neighbourhood of Durnley, the town of DIackburn, and the adjacent country; and, as far as was consistent with the official duties about tvliicli I was employed, I made it my particular business to inquire into the state of the manufacturing population, having previously been in correspondence with the clergy of the different parishes situated in the manufacturing districts, through whom, in conjunction with the more respectable inhabitants of the re- spective parishes, grants from the London Committee were in general transmitted to those districts. My first visit was in September, and my second about six weeks afterwards ; I did not find at that time the diatress quite so great as it had been represented to be. I was told by the most intelligent manufacturers, that they had sometimes experienced u more intense distress, but none more general or more sudden. Amongst the people themselves I observed the greatest quietness and good order, a degree of contentedness, under pressure to which they were quite unused, which excited my admiration. Since that time, 1 have every reason to believe that while in some places the distress has been very considerably dimi- liished, in others it has increased in at least an equal proportion. I am satisfied, firom inquiry, that there was no probability of a return, to any considerable extent, of employment to the hand-loom weavers ; yet I am also satisfied that the decay of that branch of trade will by no means be so sudden as has been apprehended. Ih the town of Bolton alone, I believe, there arc not fewer than 8,000 hand-loom weavers, and the local committee of that place, who are remarkably intelligent arid active^ seemed utterly to despair of employment for the greater part of that nuniiber, even should manufactures revive to a greater extent than is at present anttcipated. There are two distinct classes of hand-loom weavers in Lancashire ; those who are living in the large towns, for instance in Bolton, and those in the country places amongst the hills, who are not only hand-loom weavers, but also little farmers, and they are at thia moment by far the most distressed class of persons in Lancashire, for it has been their custom to take small tracts of land at hi^ rents, which the husband and his sons cultivate, while the woman and her daughters have two, three or four hand-looms in the house, firom the profits of which they have been accustomed to pay their rents ; and it is obvious to remark, .that at the same time that their loom-work fai's them, their poor-rates are increased, for the relief of other weavers who have no laid, and so they are ruuied in two directions. . , 3a63. In the case of those hand -loom weavers who are also small farmers, upon what duration of lease do they generally hold, or are they tenants at will? — I believe tl.^y are generally tenants at will; one gentleman told me he bad a very considerable tract of land all at once thrown upon his hands in the neighbourhood of Blackburn. In some of those country places, particularly for instance Padiham» the poor-rates during the last year increasol to six-and-twenty sbilliogs in the pound upon the rack-rent. . 2a64k Has your Lordship any means of estimating the proportion between those two classes of weavers, those who are congregated in towns and those dispersed in the country?— •! should think, putting Manchester out of the question, that those hand-loom weavers in the country are very nearly equal to those in the towns. 2265. What is the population from whom the poor-rate is levied? — As fir at we can collect from oot returns, all but the poorest are assessed for the relief of th^ very poorest, such as. in the parish of Bethnal Green, where the poor have been supporting the poor, till at last they are no longer able to go on, and now the parish is borrowing money.' i , 550. G g 3 aa66. Do ThcLoiil BMm^ oi Vkutpr. 3 April, il«7. 33» MINUTES OF EVIOENCK DFJORE SELECT COMMITTEE Tli« \jitA lUibiip ol i'.kttltr 8 April, |8«7. sjiif). l)(i tliow poor livti in Iioumh hullt for the piirpono of lioUlinK weavfrs, and not tilt- pKipi.Tty of lliu wcivcrs tliimiiclvctr — I uin hardly competent to say how tho hoiiitc'x urc huilt , in innny pluccii wiicrc n lar^c factory '\% Mt tip, cottages ara hiiilt liy ihc iiropiu lor of tlic fiictory, or the landowner or the periton poueiscd of Innd, wiiich lie Ictit on Icaxc to liie nianufnctiiren. "iiC^T- I« the (.'oiiiniittce to understand ttmt it is in your Lor(lihi|/B opinion, that the luind-loom weavers of tho^e eotintry districts arc in greater diitroia than ibe hand-loom Hcavcri in the towns? — I think so, certainly. ''•'■> 3368. Woidd it not also a|)|K'ar, that from their knowledge, in some decree, of agriculture, they would be likely to miikc better settlers in u new country than the men taken entirely from the towns ? — Undoubtedly ; and I meant to mention that as an advantage ; but I lun nfraid that is one of the great evils which will attend this or any other plan of emigration, lliut you must send the best workmen out of the country. g2(J(). Does not your Lordship understand that in the towns the hand-loom weavers will bo sooner absorbed by the factories tbon those in the country ? — Yes. r think it may not bo irrelevant to state to the Committee, that there is a great distinction to be made between the hand-loom weavers in different towns ; fur in- stance, a grcot part of the weavers in Wigan arc hand-loom weavers, but for a long time they suffered comparatively no distress, the trade of Wigan kept up pretty well during the greater part of the distress ; of course it depends very much upon the nature of the goods they have to make. 3370.' Can your Lordship state whether man/ of those persons who, according to your evidence, in such numbers receive relict from the parishes, are Irish, in the parts of Lancashire to which you refer ?— There arc certainly Irish in some of the smaller towns, and a very great proportion in the large towns, but I think not io the villages. 2371. Your Lordship has stated, that at your last visit you found the distreu increased in some districts and decreased in others ; have the goodness to state whether that is applicable to any [)articular trade belonging to ono district or the other? — No; I think it is very much referable to the circumstance to whicb allusion 1ms been made, that in the larger towns the hand-loom weavers are more ready to take advantage of the least increase in the facilities of labour afforded by the power-looms, and that they are absorded in the power-loom populdtion. There is no such opportunity afforded to the hand-loom weavers in the villages, whose distress has been uniformly increasihg from the first decline of trade. 3372. Are the branches of the London Relief Committee so generally spread that communications can be had without loss of time with the class of hand-loom weavers in the districts of Yorksiiire? — ^There will be no difficulty whatever. They are, however, not exactly branches of our committee, but they are local committees approved of by us, who have been in regular correspondence with us, and through whom any wish of our own, or of the Emigration Committee, can be imnoediately transmitted to the great body of the population. 2273. Docs your Lordship think that by means of tho?e committees, and by the resident gentlemen, a return can be easily made of the number of persons in the remoter districts of Lancashire, who would be ready to embrace an immediate offer of emigration ? — I have 00 doubt such information could be very soon obtained. 3^74. Is it your opinion that the removal of a portion of the hand-loom weavers from the towns would iiave any material effect 00 the circumstances of the other branch of hand-loom weavers who live in the country? — If the hand-loom weavers in the towns have enough to do, they will not emigrate ; and if they have not enough to do, none of their work will go to the hand-loom weavers in the country. There is one circumstance, however, which is somewhht singular, that even at the present time, where a great degree of distress prevails, as in Hlackbuni and the neighbourhood, work is occasionally sent to hand-loom weavers at' the distance of •ifty miles from the place. In the chapelry of Dent, between Sedbergh and Kendal, partial relief has been afibrdeU to hand-loom wea^ng by wqrk sent from Blackburn. - 2275. Has it come to your Lordship's knowledge that hand-loom weaving has befen carried on under the superintendence of the oversow in some of the poorer parishes, with a view to a diminution of the rates, thougli not affbrding any remuneration ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: itia;. 239 3 Apiil, ving has B poorer ing any ncraUon nemuntratiuii to the wuikmcii? — No, I »••» not uwarc of" llmi. Mr. Nuldr, ilir Tin l.nrC(l liith<>p uf CAnirr. Heaver* ; tlicy were puiil lor tlicir Moik ut u low rutc, Itiit 1 U-litvt- imt lottcr lltuii Um pricv of wcaviiij^ w.ts at tliut time ; it mu» kimmi (0 those nun \tlio coiilil not ^tt work as wcavvrti, they mitc |mid t'l tlicir work uk it' tuipUiytil by niunulucUncrii ; but tliiit wus discontinued, tVoni an upprclicnsion tliut it was only uddini; to tlie evil, \fy increasing the stock ot' utttnulucturcd goods, wliicli at that liniu otcrloadesl UiQ market. -jajC. Ii it your I..ord»h!p'i opinion Uiat the itato of difttrcss of the country hand-loom weavers is such that they would rcudily cnibracu any pioxpcct ot' an vniigration which might bo now held out to tht-nii'— I liuvc no doulit ot it, excu|)t in cases wlierc peculiar local connexions tic thcin to thu spot ; but tiic great uiuas of thcin would, I am sure. 3377. If the leases which these persons hold are gcnornlly for n year, ulmt arc the dilKculties which your L'lrdKhip foresecA in curryii)g into etfcct any system of immediate emigration, in regard lo them? — 1 do not see uny ditliciilty so lar as t/iiy are concerned, but only to the ell'cct of it on the prosperity of (lie country, so nmcii land being immediately thrown I'pon the hands of tlie landlords ; that is a (question which the landlords must consider. 3378. Docs your Lordship tiiink that the rents of these lands have been paid? — Not for the last year, certainly . 3379. Do you tliink there is n general feeling, on tlie pnrt of the owners of land in the districts of which you havi< spoken, that tlicy have to u ruinous extent sub- divided their lands, and over-built upon tiieni? — I have not hud much conversation with the owners of lands, with the rxcrpiion of Mr. ilulton. I have no doubt they find, by dear-bought experience, that sucli is the case ; but I am not prepared to state instances. 2380. In point of fact, under the present circmnstancffs^does your Lordship think that the giving up those cottages, with the small portion of land belonging to them, would be a material loss to thu landlord ? — Up to tlie htst year they paid, 1 believe, large rents for their cottages ; it is not unusual to pay us much us eight pounds per annum for a cottage. 3281. Supposing it were proved thai there is no expectation of that class of small farmers and manufacturers having a return of ))rolitablc trade, uouhl not the hneans of paying rent for those lands and cottages equally be lost to the landlord? — ■ If it were possible to take away any class of weavers, the consfequence of whose emigration should be the return of work to those country weavers, tiiat would perhaps be the most desirable thing which could be done ; but I do not sec how that it is to be effected ; I do not, as I observed before, see that the taking away three ur four thousand hand-loom weavers m any large town, would throw much work into the hands of the country weat«rs. ' 2382. Will your Lordship have the goodness to state what you consider would be the effect of the reinovnl uf a large number of country hand looms, on the situa- tion of the remaining hamd-looui weavers in the country districts? — It must be an improvement, for. whafc-ver work there is, or a great pnrt of tiiut work, will remain for a time. I think some considerable time must elapse before the iiund-loom weaving will be quite extinct. If half of the weavers in any country place were removed, there will of course be more work and higher wages for those who remain; and they will, it is to bo hoped, find out some other resources against the time when the final extinction of that branch of labour takes [)lace. 238 j. If such increase of remuneration arose to those 10 remain, and the houses of the persons removed were not pulled for a much smaller sum than the Lancashire weavers can ; and therefore the place*: of tho^ who enigrate, will be occupied by weavers from Ireland ; we find that ia» . the case now. 3284. When your Lordship speaks of ameliorating the state of Ireland, are the': Committee to understand your Lordship to refer to a plan of Emigration for the suf^rabundant population, as applied to the state of that country? — I am not invpared to give an opinion on that point ; but if emigration is to be encouraged* from Ireland, it must be an emigration westward, and not eastward. ■. 3385. If the effect of the removal either of the town or country weavers-were to raise wages, has your Lordship any doubt that the master manufacturers vtoultf make immediate efforts to supply their place? — I have no doubt that the master manufacturers t^ere; who are avery peculiar class of men, would make every efibrt- to'supply their place with those Irish labourers. The master manufacturers, I aaf afraid, do not feel that interest in the local prosperity of the country where they live, " which is felt by the farmers and agriculturists. 3286. Upon the rise of wages the tendency would be for the master manufhc* turers to bring in Irish workmen, and the tendency of the Irish popuUtion wOuId be to flow inf— I have no doubt of it; for the muster mAiufacturers in Lancashire consider them as located there only for a time. ' I am not speaking of the tnvci of substance, who set out in business with a capital, but of the men who rise from the loom, and, as soon as they can make a small sum of money, build a factory 6f a cqrtajn size, and in the course of a few years accumulate a property, with which they are perhaps content; they then migrate, and their places are supplied by, others. . Persons of this description do not feel the same interest in questions which relate to the permanent prosperity of the country, as those who are attached to it by tl)e tiesof soil. 3287. Are those persons who come over from Ireland as general workmen, persons who are able to^U^p the places of the weavers, and engage iu that line of business P — Not in general/ 1 should think ; but they are able to fill up the places of.the power-loom workmen; they would require very little training for part of the work of the power-loom, and so they would stand in the way of the b^nd-I^q^) weavers being taken up in the power-loom population. itf^^-iit't-Uit-t 3288. If the hand-loom weavers were once removed, is there no danger of their places being filled up by fjture importations from Ireland ? — I scarcely know the state of the Irish population with respect to weaving; I fancy there are a good many who can weave. 2289. During the period that high wages prevailed in these districts, did the Irish population inteifere to any considerable extent with the people of the country ? — I believe to a considerable extent with respect to one town (which how- ever t do not mention as an instance of a tdwn connected with the cotton trade) I mean the town of Macclesfield; a great number of Irish . settled there; and we have iniormati^afrom Macclesfield, that within the last year, in consequence of the distrras, the pei|ltaMion has been diminished to the amount of 6,uoo, of course by reniovalsi ^' 3390. ^ere those Irish labourers generally employed in the manufactures? — Almost entirely in the manufactures. 3391. Does nbt your Lordship 'ajiticipate that the revival of demand would occasion the erection of poilver-ioom 'manufactories, both in town and country, which woiild employ many who are iioiw 'only hkn^-loom weavers ?i — I have no doubt of that ; but it would be «i work of time. V 3392. Is yootr Lo^d|hi|^'»tie«^;iHN^ the people of Macclesfield about two yeara ago put public advertisethenH into the newspapers, that they wanted men ? — Yes, they advertised for 5,000 men ; but I do not think that the increase of population took place in consequence of that advertisement ; it has been a process of some years. 3393. Your Lordship never heard of any other case of an advertbement of tiiat nature?— No. • 3394. Knowing the increased facilities of communication between li^lahd iriS ^ojAand, has yo^r L,ordship a doubt that the influx of Irish population has ah im- lliMiate tendency to reduce the rate of wages in England to the level of the reniu- qfjl^.tipn of labour in (rclauil^— -It has a tendency, and 'a direct tendency, although ->i A ' • perhaps i^ .?— *•.* .■*^ • «» ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. Mt perhaps hot immediate ; time is necessarily required for the process. ThA^Jri^ k^'^rr. labourers do not all at once find their way into the factories, nor are they able »U at """^ " * ct*Mtr. once to set up looms ; but that the tendency exists, and that it has produced very» great effects in Loncashire, I am persuaded. 2295. Does not Irish labour always come into competition with agricultural labour, in Lancashire and the westarn parts? — I should think not to any or^t extent, except in harvest; the great body of Irish labourers who come over in harvest time do not remain in Lancashire or Cheshire, but come on to other ports 6f the kingdom ; they seem rather to prefer the longest tour, for they get tho moat money by it. 2396. Has your Lordship had an opportunity of seeing who are the labourara employed generally in making the new roads in Lancashire? — That is a matter to which I did not feel myself calle there was more work than there had bden for the preccdiog ten months ; the fact seems to bb, that during ^hat ten montlis they had borne up as well as they could, but that their means of converting thei* little property into money were tlien utterly exhausted", and they fell into a state of extreme destitution. 33 1 7- What were the instances in which yoiir Lordship observed the distress tO bb most serious ? — The neighbourhood of BurnUy, the district called I'endle Forest and the townships of Blackburn. ' 2318, Has your Lordship any information to communicate to the Committee, which may be of use to them in tlie inquiry they are prosecuting? — My inquiries probably have been directed to a different object than that which the CcmiAitteft have in view; rny inquiries were at that time principally directed to the moral condition of the |)eoplc, which I confess appeared to me to be considerably better than T had always been told that it was; the hand-loom weavers itre i very orderly and, generally speaking,, a well-disposed body of men ; they manifest a great readiness to listen to good advice, and, from some personal inquiries ainongst ihe poor, I am led to hope that a considerable moral improvement has taken place in many of them, in consequence of their suSerings. I may. add to a former remark which I made, the disproportion between the wages paid*in manufacturing and agricultural districts will appear still greater, if we take into account the diiibrent prices of some of the necessaries of life in the respective districts ; for instatice, t'ue! ^'}\rh is as important to the health of the labouring population as the quality of :'" ' ; ) is not more than one-third or one-fourth of the price in the manu* fact*;: ■■■■ nets which it costs in the eastern counties; clothing, generally speaking, not .uu.ti inan two thirds. The only article in which their expenses are iiecessaHly greater, is that of house-rent ; a cottage, which in the agricultural districts would let fo' not more than three pounds a year, in the manufacturing districts fetches eight pounds. 2319. Does your Lordship tiiink that this low rate of wages in the ngricultural districts is referable to the population being disproportionate to the demand for labour? — No; I think it chiefly attributable to the operation of the Poor Laws. Under the present administration of the Poor Laws, even a deficient population may beco.'ne burtliensome 10 the parish as well as a redundant, although of course not to the same extent. 2320. How could a d(;ncicr>t pop«1fltion, that is to say, a population not sufficient for the demand for labour, be otherwise tiian sufficiently remunerated to keep them off the parish ? — Because there will always be a certain number of persons who wil) be glad to find some pretence for not working, and wit! prefer having seven shillings without work, to having ten sb.illings with work ; and while there is a parish fund tO be depended on, the farmers will systematically pay low wages, and have th* deficiency made up out of the rates, to which others contribute as well as themselves^ this, at least, is according to my own experience. 2321. Your Lordship first knew the manufacturing district of Lancashire in a season of prosperity i — Rather at the termination of it. 2322. Were you struck with any difference in the expenses and habits of the manufacturing labourer at that time, as contrasted with the habits of tbe aizriculturul laljourerer at that time ? — My knowledge of that period is, properly speaking, his- torical, for I did not go into tbe diocese oJP Chester until the year 1)^24, and I had not much oppottunity of inquiring into the habits of tbe people until 1825, when the distress was beginning; but from the accounts I hkve received, I shduld say that the habits of the manufacturing classes are those of impiovidcnce, cuiiipaitid with the agricultural. 5.50. Hh2 The Urd Disbup of Cnetitr. > ^-C :— «• 3 A|*«l. ,* jyUUm H. ByHt, 3 April, 1897. ^1 , n i i!^T? 344 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE WUl'om Henky Hyett, Esq. called in; and Examined. 3333. YOU &re Secretary of the CooDinittee for the Relief of distreased Maim^ facturers? — lam. 3334. Will ;^ou state your opinion as to the e%ient of the distress among the manufacturers m the county of Renfrew and county of Lanark in Scotland? — There has existed very considerable distress in both those places, particularly ill Paisley. 3335. Have you any details to oflfer to the Committee upon that subject ? — I have uo documents with me, but I can from the Committee-room furnish the information, if it is desired. 3336. Do you believe it to have been very excessive?— The manufacturing •classes have sufllered very excessively from the loss of trade. 3337. Have there been, in your judgment, any great exertions in Glasgow and Pais' . amonji the betttr part of the inhabitants there, for the relief of Ilwse dis- tres! : — At Glasgow and Paisley the exertions have been very great by indivf- diiaU; subscriptions by the gentlemen of the country, and other local efforts, have been made in aid of the distressed. 3338. Have you observed, in the course of the correspondence -which you have carried on with various individuals in Lancashire, in Yorkshire, and in Scotland, any particular circumstances relative to hand-loom weaving, which have induced you to form any opinion as to the declining stftte of that branch of manufacturer-' The hand-loom weavers in general are at this moment out of employment, not being able to compete with the power*!oom. S339. Will you explain to u.u Committee your opinions as to hand-loom weaving, what part of it, in your judgment, must inevitably decline, and what part of it, in your judgment, will probably conrinue for some time longer, until in short the p ,mer-loom machines are much improved ? — 'The hand-loom weavers of calicoes are inose that are throwif out of employment at this moment, those who fa'jriqite muslins and fancy goods still continue to gel ..aiployment. S330. Did you ever hear that those individuals, being hand-loom weavers, who manufacture what is called figured work, are not i"> mudi danger of losing their occupations ? — They are not at this moment. 3331. Even when that figured work is upc/n somewhat coarse goods? — It is very difficult for the power-loom to imitate the figured work, therefore it will remain in the hands of the band-loom weavers for some time to come. 3332. It is then that description of band-loom weavers who are employed in plain calicoes who may expect to have their labour extinguished by the power- loom ? — Yes, those are precisely the persons. 3333. is it your opinion that it would be impossible for the power-loom weavers to do the figured work ? — At present they have rot attempted to do it ; as to what improvements may take place, it is impossible to say. 3334. Do not you u^iierstand that great in- This it one diviaion of the Hundred of Blackburn. 140 Work done in cottor', but ,not in woollen. Diatrew much abated. Work, but at low wages. J ' ., •'' '^1 346 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMirTEE LANCA8HIRE-coiKinii«f whom one-half are Irish. November Colne > ■ 19,000 • Pendle Wir ." Read Waddi 1 ' * Waddington J Grindleton Newchurc!i •> '« Whalley • . Bolton • >5.530 weaving and ipinning cotton. A Symondston - Heyhouiet Padiham - - . 643 300 Higham - • 1 November Burnley 7^97 - -■■■ .■ 4 ■''■ ■ ■ ■- ' weaving and spinning ^ „ ::i . and December Haberghameavee Cliviger • Wortton 9,376 . D» . d» ' Buercliffe November Chorley ^ • including May Standith • Clayton - Brotherton Wrightington • •• ' ' 'a ,_ Croeton • Howick • Longton f • less thim last year, weaving, 40 per cent. spinning, so d*. Penwortham • ' Whittle • Hutton - 38,007 weavers and spinners of cotton. a « ■ •{ wSon' ! Hoole • Farington Cuerden • • Layland - Beckeriall . •- Bolton-leMoon, and 18 Townships . •;) 60,000 weaving and spinning of cotton. • • [* Figtitt not recenW ] Dean and Towmhipt i8,9ifi - • • " November Tildeiley • . \ and LJUle Hulton - 1) • • • • a 33 77 greatly distressed. December Bedford . . . • a «... none Astley • Atherton 88,67^ - d» - . . 50 > - ! Leigh • • I • _ • • • few !; '/ --.>:■ Pennington • • - . . 100 Wortlcx 55 8,000 t.- Ecclea. • •3.330 • « » W. H. Hyetl, Secretary. Nov. 34. !»9- Feb. 10. 550. ON EMIGRATI^ FllOM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 19-7. r!^F .1 M7 /ear, io per cent. 10 d». it retikMl} TOBKSHIRE. 550. CWmutli Dm* •MaUjrmlorworij. rUQB. DUCRIPnON. RtMAMU. ..r. afRMUii. f > PuushU. ■««««. I8a6: Dae. 9. Alverthorpe 4.864 Weaveri • 143 153 -«.'■« >3- Bradford • . . 40,000 D* - . - — — 1. Bamtley - . - 8,300 D* - - - 330 150 Batley - - - 3>3i7 D* . - . 906 — Jine Baildon and Guiieiey • 9.>63 D« - - • 689 — ,.. Binttd . ■ . 5.840 D* - - - 50 — 1 13. Barkitland . D» . . - — -» CroM Stone 10,176 D* - • - 900 — .M Cumberworth 1,130 D* - . . 45 91 ClecUieaton 4,000 D» . - - — Darton 1.340 D* - . - 2« 40 -- '• Denb" i.>43 D* - . - 160 7 Dewkoury . . - Dodworth • 7.300 D* . . T 50, 50 * 1,300 D» . - - liJ 79 Earii Heaton 3.400 D. . . . — w. Elland ■ • • 6,000 D* - - - 500 — Hcptonitall 4.550 D* . - . «7 60 Not. Hudder«6eld ■ • 15,000 IV - - - gio 80 ' Golcar a,Co6 D' - •- - 900 60 ... Scamehden 855 D* . - - 197 46 ; Slaithwaite «,87» D* . . - — — '! Famley Tyaa 900 D» . - 75 34 ] , ■ i,'- Henley - • • 4,000 D* . . - 551 50 Almondbury Si D» - . - 539 971 '. ... flj. Kirkheaton D* ■ - - 545 355 Dolaton 3,389 D* - - - 900 900 . i„ . . 1 Lapton ... a.7a9 D* . - - 140 80 , Lonswood . . • Kirkburton • 1.94a D« . - - 191 169 9.153 D- -^ . 199 99 S;' : : : 1,000 r . . 5> 3« 1.339 110 116 Wooldale - 3.500 ii» . . . 303 95 Thurbton - 889 tf . . . 83 95 • ■ ■■ Lpckwood ... 3,30Q D* . . . 970 300 • LinthwaJte ... 9,197 D' . . - 197 133 Linley . D' - - - 69 84 High Hoyland - - ''968 D» - - - — — • <8. Swaine d« • - • 738 D. . . . 55 17 . Dec. 5. Hepperhulme 3.963 D» - . - — — Not. 95. Haworth - 4,668 D* . - - 630 90 Heaton - - r 1,300 D* . - . "9 ■ — 4 Yeadon ... 9,789 D» - - - — "" Heckmondwicke • 9,700 D" - - - 70 59 Keigbley ... - D" . - - — — Knareiboro' 7.000 D» . - - *°, SCO Liveriedge 4.560 D' . • . 900 1 bmiliei. J — * 33. Midglcy ... 9,400 D" - - - '% ~67 • 1817 : Feb. Norland • - - i,8ou D* - - - » Owett 8,000 D» - ■ - ,4.'» — Pennittone 645 D» - - - 16 r ^ 1 Sowerby - - 8,000 D« - . - • 80 ■ Nev. Stainland - . 3,000 D* - - • - .98 H 4 Dec. Southownun • 5,100 . D. . . . "5 a3 ■ ' Skelmanthorp • 700 i¥ - - ■ — "'■• Jan. n. Stanley - • - 9,700 D« . . - 300 — Nov. 34. Thornton . - • 4.850 S* " - ■ 500 — ■■-'•.. •■ ag- Warley - - - 5,000 D" . - - 338 979 • Feb. 10. Worabor*' - - - 1,000 400 — " # ■«•<» 4^. Hh4 ly. H. Hyetti^tcnury. \ >1 i ■■;.( ' ,1 348 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE WILTSHIRE. Duo PLACE. PopuUtioii. DESCRIPTION. CUiroanU totalljr aul ol work. MfMARM. of Hcluro. Pugcbttl. glrangen. 1836: Nov. 33. Nov. 17. Feb. 34. Nov. - • Bradford ... Horningham Hilperton ... Melkihani • Maiden Bfadley - North Bradley • Trowbridge 15.000 1,300 1.033 5,000 640 «.473 11,000 Weaven D" - - . D" . - . D* - . . D» . . - D« . . - D* . r - I.63« 140 .78 300 104 «93 aoo 50 63 SO 138 f A great number employed on roadi. Thit place ia ia great diatrew. W. H. Hyett, Secretary. ■li '■ •m • IJ K GLOUCESTERSHIRE. Due PI.ACE. P.tpuUiiou. DESCRIPTION. Clilmantt lotallj out of work. REMARKS. of Reiuni. Pwochial. Sirangen. 1836: Dec. - Bialey - . - 6,000 weavers of broad cloth 3,000 m Dursley and townahipi Kingswood, WilU 7.500 1.500 D* and card making woollen ipiuning 50 aoo 50 Painswick - about Sfioo weaving uloth - 370 • 1837: Feb. - Stroud . • - Uley . - . - Wootton-under-edge • North Nibley - -"| Cam - - - •/ Coaly - - -J 1 1. i --• 8,011 3,000 6,000 4,860 dyeing and fulling cloth broad-doth weaving ' D» . ©• ■ - * m m a _ cannot b flio *60o 1,336 eascertaii 150 ed, but vcrj ooiuiderable. SCOTLAND. Date pf Rflum. ^ PLACE. FopuUUon. Out of Employ. • ••• REMAftKS, ■' < 1837: • Mar. 33. Edinburgh « 38,335 • ijGoo adults, at the time the report * waa made last year, llie.conditioa " of the poor is now much worse. «9- Paialey - - ' ■ 7».534 . 8.35 families on the Charity fund, 31st March 1837. *. Jan. a. FeHh ... ■ g,o68 1,600 Feb. 3. Pollockahawi - 3,000 137 adults. .:. Mar. 17, Kilayth • - - 4,3po 146 D». ir. H. Hyiit, Stcrelary. ^*^ J*/ ■ *• .« V ■ r: I «AIIK(. number emplojrol Thit place it ia wy. lEHARKS. .'^, try ooniidenble. L^^\- :.» SecreUry. ipoit iition ' Tund, 3 April, ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : 1S97. 049 ' 3343. Is it not your opinion that altbouah the diatreu must undoubtedly have l^iUkm H. UfUi, been very great, yet as the application to Uie London Committee was always for ^* relief, the persons applying, like all persons applying for relief, have a natural dis- position rather to overstate their case?— In some instances, perhaps, but nnerally raking, it was so well guarded, that the returns called for may be rdied on ; y were made by local committees which were established in different parts of the country, and it was required that the statements should be vouched for by the chairman of the committee or clergyman of the parish, and also a neighbouring magistrate, who must in some measure have been enabled to judge of the accuracy of the statements. 9344. Have not the landed proprietors of the country an interest in relieving their poor-rates, by obtaining as much relief as possible from London ? — I do not think, generally speaking, those documents have been from the landed proprietors, tiiey emanated from the clergy and from the master manufacturers, from the local committees, generally speaking 3345' Have not the committee at the London Tavern been particularly jealous with regard to observations and applications made by overseers and churchwardens ? —Always ; and further inquiries, as to accuracy of the returns mode by overseers, have been always instituted before relief was granted. 9346. Have they not generally viewed them with great suspicion ? — ^They have. 3347. Do you recollect whether on all occasions, whenever the Bishop of Chester was present, the committee have not applied to hiio to know the character of the clergyman of the istrcssed place, who signed any return of the' distress ? — Yes. 2348. Have they not regulated their conduct by his Lordship's answers ?7>In a great measure. 3349. Have you a statement of the employed and unemployed' in the diflfcrent townships ? — I have delivered in the Statements required. 2350. Will you have the goodness to state generally the proceedings of the Muaufiicturers Relief Committee, of the present state of distress, as it appears . Iiefore them, and your own views upon tlie subject? — The course proceeded in by the Committee, which was formed after the public meeting in May 1826, was, in the first instance, to make liberal remittances ^o the suffering districts ; and having ,|irovided against the extremity, they formed local committees in every place . applying for aid ; to these bodies sett of queries as to the amount of population, fesources, poor-rates, and actual condition, were sent, the accuracy of the return being vouched for by a neighbouring mag'strate ; the rate of aid afterwards 'fur> nished was regulated' by theje documents, which in districts where the distren continued, were renewed from time to titpe, so that the existing state of the place was always before the committee. When the dangsr ot* starvation was removed, the committee, aware of the ill effects produced by gratuitous assistance, directed that out-door labour should be expected from all able-bodied persons applyii,ir .for relief. This measure hod the double effect, of preventing parties who could obtain other employment from participating in the charity fund, and also of re- ' moving a number of weavers from the loom altogether, leaving to those that *emained a greater portion of employment. Wherever any party or undertaking was benefited by the work performed by the individuals under the care of the • comn^ittee, a contribution according to circumstances was expected ; in general the arrangement was two-thirds of the amount expended in manual labour, to be 4 furnished by such party or undertaking, and one-third by the committee. At the commeneeinenf'of the.winter, distributions were made of articles of clothing and - bedding, Tmany persons having sold or pawned theirs at the pressure of the moment,) and in sorjie cases where tlie distress was most severe, provisiom wei» wer-loom, which pro- duces cloth of rather a superior quality. In this district but scanty aid can now be derived from the poor-rate, the ley-payers having themselves become generally paupers, and the diminution of the funds of the committee will gradual^ put an end to that resource ; the condition of the hand-loom weavers must therefore be very deplorable, unless some means are devised for procuring them such occupa- tion as may enable them to earn a subsistence. It appeani that a portion of the calico weavers may, by a small alteration of the loom, turn to weaving muslins and fancy goods ; but this can only be to a small extent ; and they must, by this meansi either reduce the wages, or dispossess some of the persons at present occupied in this 6nih(:h of manufacture. The case uf these persons, therefore, claims the attention and sympathy of the 'country. 335 1 ■ Do-you not consider the surplus population arising from that portion of labQur wHIch is deprived of work by the introduction of power-looms, that part for vithich there is no chance of any imprpvement hereafter ? — Certainly ; those hand- loom^.weavers have very little chance of ever finding employment again, especially those who are resident iu' the distant townships ; those in large towns will in the course of time fiitd partial work. I found on inquiry assort of loom had been lately invented, by which hand-weavers can in some measure compete with the power- loom. TheM looms possass some little improvement on the common loom ; but . they do not exist to any great extent, nor can they, I believe, compete successfiilly with the power-loom. ^35^' V\^in ho>v short a time do you think the Manufacturers Relief Com- mittee, by their local correspondence, could obtain a list of persons, from the nuuiufacturtpg districts of Lancashire, willing to engage in an immediate plan of Emigration ?-rWithjn a very* short period > some of our local committees will answer instantly, otiiers will take more time ; within a fortnigb^or three weeks, I shoilld think. • . *S53« Were you not sent into Lancashire by the committee ? — Yes, at three periods. ' '" 2354; Did you travel about that country for the purpose of obtaining informa- tion?— Yes. . ■ 2355. Were you in the company of gentleo^n likely to ^ive you good in- formation ?-^Frequently in the company of persons able to give mformation on the subjects interesting to the committee. 2356. Who accompanied you ? — Mr. M'Adam, in the last tour I made through the country. 3357. now long were you in the country ? — Three weeks or more, the first time ; about the same period the second, and a month making the last tour. 3358. Did not you obtain a great. deal of information, which you afterwards .gave to the committee? — Yes, on my return I made reports regularly to the committee. 2359. These were the basis, in a degree, for future proceedings of the com- ' mittee? — In a. great measure. . JI360. The committees which you acted with in the country, in co-opsration with the London Committee, have done their duty very well ? — They have, very effidendy. 3^61. W6uld tbev not be the best means through which either aiw plan of emigration, or any pun of relief, could be devised r — They would obtain tbe desired information for us, I have no doubt, instantly. 3362. Tbe committee in London have had every reason to be satisfied with their co-operation ? — ^Perfectly so: 2363. Did you, when you were in the country, ever bear any anxiety expressed ' upob die subject of Emigration ? — Not in the country ; but since I returned from • die ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : 1D97. tsi com* >peration kve, very plan of desired 9 lied with expressed aed from the the rovintry we have had communicatioiM ; within a few day^ I have had ao inter- view with a gentieman, who staled there were fifty familiei in his neighbourhood, wlio were wishing for tlie means of emigrating. • 9364. Did you not find in the townships you visited, intelligent men who had formed themselves into committees, for the purpose of investigating the wants of the poor and prttviding relief? — I mot with many, intelligent and active, most anxious to render their assistance. 9365. Do you not conceive that the parishes, merely from calculation of their interests, would be disposed to contribute towards affording the means of emigra- tion to many of the poor ?— I should think it very likely that they would, for M-e have made terms with parishes where we employed persons on the road, t>y which tliey readily agreed to furnish a certain quota of the men's wages in aid of our fond. 3366. Can you state to the Committee what an unemployed family, a man, his wMb, and three children, costs a parish in Lancashire r — Eighteen pence per head per week, one with the other, is a usual allowance. 3367. If the sanction of Parliament were obtained for the removal of twelve or thirteen hundred families from different districts to which you have alluded, do you conceive the committees in the country connected with the Relief Committee would have any difficulty in making the necessary selection r —I think the subject , is not sufficiently known in the couniry ; the local committpes would hUve tlie means of making the wishes of this Committee known, and of seljecting proper persons. • ^ 3368. Do you wish to be understood, that Emigration is not a subject at present sufficiently considered, to enable the Londbn Committee to act?— rMy answer referred to the information possessed at present by the persons in the coiintry.** 2369. Though the subject may not be sufficiently understood to induce all those ^ who, under a better understanding, might be ready to go, still do ycu think that tlie London committee would have any difficulty in selecting a aufficienl^ number, of objects upon whom the money mig)it l)e expended ? — I thTnk not, throUgh the channel I nave named ; the hand-loom weavers are still in the greatest distress ; and I pre- * sume there would be very little difficulty in gettin^^ a sufficient number of .perswis to go from certain places, without loss* of time. 1 would naiAe distarft parishes as the proper places, rather than large towns, where the population, if removed, are in some degree helpless; but in country hamlets they are partly inyred'to agricu)- ^ tural labour, the weavers being also occupiers of lana. 2370. What AB you think would be tl^e effect upon the present state of<}iat 'part of the country, of removing twelve or thjrteen hiAidrM families P—By lea|Bii- ing the competition, there would be mure labour fot^thosa who remain, and better wages would of course be obtained ; the condition of bqth would be very ■ (Xin- •Iderable bettered, as those removed would be also provided for. The parishes would also benefit by this measure, as the poor-rates would also be materially diminished. "^ 2371. Do you apprehend, in the present state of employment of those districts, such a removal would tend to restore a sufficiency of employment to the persons who remain? — It would ameliorate the condition of many distressed manu- facturers. 2372. You speak from your knowledge of the present state of the district ? — I do. 2373. Upon your estimate of eighteen pence a head, a family of five persons out of employment would cost the parish somewhere about twenty poonds a year \ do not you think that any parish would pay one year's expense of'^such a family, tQ get rid of them altogether ; — It would certainly be their interest to do so. _ 2374. Would certainly be their interest to get rid of an incumbrance at one year's purchase ? — I apprehend they would see such an advantage. 2375. Have you reason to believe that there were a great number of Iriih settled in the counties of Lanark and Renfrewshire ? — I cannot answer that question ^rt- cisely ; the number of Irish in the manufacturing districts of Englanfl I could give, but not in Scotland ; we have not a return from Scotland, of the number of Irish settled there. 2376. You have been in some of the manufacturing districts of England ? — Yes, but not in Scotland. 2377. Does it occur tg you that there might be any means of preventing such an accumulation of population m that district r — Reipoving them seems to be the most obvious remedy. .5,5'>, I i 2 2378. Is llftM, "-'li WUIUm n. Ifyii, Eiq. 3 April, ll*7. Cnpl. «. «. 353 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTSI 3378. It not the expense of removtl no great MMnetiiiMt, u to nialie it rather a matter of expediency tu endeavour to support tbeni ? — A question as to the ein*- diencv of removing the Irish from some ports of Lancashire, came before the n«> lief Committee ; ttM (irst intention of the landowners waa to get rid of ih« super- abundant populatiun, but in consequence of the expense incurred, and the distrvM which would be consequent upon that measure, we made a stipulation that they should be relieved on the spot, and their removal not attempted for the present 9379. In consequence of this wish, they were not removed ? — They were not ; we wished them to remain, in the hope that the trade would revive, and, the manufacturers being still on the spot, business might commence without loss of time. 3380. Do you think it would be an easy matter to select proper persona from those wishing to emifjrate ; would not the parishes be dettrous of oettiag rid of those least capable of supporting themselves by their own labour? — fam not suf- 6ciently informed on the subject, but that appears likely to be the wish they would torn. Captain Henri/ WiUiam Scott, n. v. called in; and Examined. 3381. YOU are in the Royal Navy t— I am. 3383. Have you resided any time in Nova Scotia? — About seven or eight year*. 3383. In what situation were you there ? — I wu living there as a private gentle- man sinc^ the peace, but occasionally employed as a surveyor ; I was Assistnnt Surveyor General of the province, a part of the time> 3304. You assisted in the surveying a part of the Crown lands in Nova Scotia T — I did. 3385. Can ^ou state to the Committee whether there is at present any con- siderable quantity of Crown lands in Nova Scotia, fit for settlements? — I cannot state the quantity, but I can state pretty confidently that there is a large quantity in Nova Scotia. I have not been there these three years ; but about three or four years ago, I surveyed through an extensive district of land, which I should imagine can be settled to a very great extent. 3386. At what distance from the nea?^— Not far from the sea, on the sea coast. 3387. With easy communications? — Yes. '»''■ 3388. And good land ? — Yes, very good land. ' 2389. What do you mean by a large district, to what extent? — An hundred miles in length, by probably ten oj^welve in width in one direction, and two in another perhaps. w 3390. For what purposes were they surveyed by Government ? — I was employed by Lord Dalhousie, and afterwards Sir James Kemp, who is Governor now, in dividing the provinces into counties and townships; and in doing thdt I was also commanded to lay out divisions, for the purpose of locating emigrants upon those lands. 3391. Have any portion of those lands been lince located ? — Yes, one very large settlement has been formed, called the Dalhousie Settlement, which has turned out very well indeed. 3393. Upon what terms were they located ? — ^Tliey had to furnish money for paying for the grants. They furnished their own funds. 3393. They were voluntary emigrants ? — Yes. 2394. From Scotland or from England ? — Prinicipally from Scotland. There was nothing furnished to them upon those settlements, they came out with a little property. ^395- Were they charged with any fees upon the land ? — Yes. 3396. Can you state to what amount ? — For an hundred acres, I think the fees in the cheapest way (for there were two ways of doing it,) if a man took out his grant for an hundred acres, he paid possibly more than joining with others perhaps m the usual way ; five or six pounds would be the expense of obtaining a grant of an hundred acres of land ; there is the surveying of it, together with the fees of office. 3397. Is there any reservation of quit-rent ? — No, none in Nova Scotia. 2398. As soon as the land was surveyed the grant was given in fee-simple ? — Yes, liable to escheat on the noncompliance with the terms of the grant, which are, that in a given time certain proportion^ of the whole must be cultivated. 2399. What 2413- No, I, 2414. say. 24 > 5. 2416. hundred landing ; . 550. now, in I was the fees out his perhaps a (rrant the fees ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iDi?. 153 3399. What nunb«r of acres did each settler get ? —Generally about an hundred ; I think it has been lessened of lata years. They used to give ioo acres tan or lartlvo years ago. 3400. Are they settled close to each other ?— There b generally an intermission, not at all close, tliai was never studied, it was never n . 3416. How far have tliey to go to reach their lands? — Some an hundred or an hundred and ^wenty-miles, if they go to Picton ; that is. another point for their landing ; it is in the entrance of the Gulf of St. Lawrence. . 55°', 1 i 3 24>7- Of Htnrf tr. JcMf. a. w. S April, 1I17. 1 in') k' I I 254 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMTITEE if,|vl I' .8 1!' Cut Kmry fV. Scott, 3 April* ^L. h "2417. Of how many people does the Dalhousie settlemeat consist? — ^Tbe first setUement was about three hundred, but they have increased very woDderfolly rioce by their own natural increase. 241 8. Has there been further emigration there !* — Yes, there has been, I cannot state the extent of it. They were principally Scotch, and as sooo as they found themselves comfortably there, they added to their number by inducing their friends in Scotland to come out to them. 9419. What class of persons were they?— Labouring farmers, but there were Mtne weavers among them. 2420. Do you know from what part of Scotland they came? — I do not. 2421. Can you give the Committee any idea of the value of one hundred acres of land in Nova Scotia, at the expiration of five years labour employed upon it, taking it to be in a good situation?— I should certainly say 100/. at the very least. 3422. You would consider a hundred acres, after five years labour, as a sufficient security for 3/. a year? — Most undoubtedly. 3423. Would 3/. a year be obtained from one hundred acres of land with greater facility, if it were taken in produce than in money ? — Yes, I think it would. 2424. Do you think that a settler, having been five years upon a hundred acrei of land in Nova Scotia, in an ordinary case, would have any difficulty in paying annually 3/. worth of produce, if he were allowed to redeem hb land at twenty years purchase ? — I think there would be no difficulty at all. 2425. Do you think that those are terms which would be willingly submitted to by settlers, which could be easily enforced, and for the enforcement of which the land would be a sufficient security? — Yes. 2426. How much land could a good settler, with a family, clear in a year?— < The European settler could scarcely clear his land at all ; the quantity of land they could clear would greatly depend upon their funds. An English labourer, going out to America, is as helpless as a child in the woods, in comparison with the old settler ; he is obliged to employ the labourers of the country to clear it for him ; his ability therefore would depend upon his capability to hire the people of the country to do it. 2427. When you say that a hundred acres, after five years possession, would be worth 100/., you mean, that the person so settled must pay during that time a considerable sum for the labour of persons in the country ? — I think that after having hired people for the purpose of clearing two or three acres, which would be sufficient for two years, by the expiration of two years he would himself become an axe man. Sot tliat is the piat -difficulty, an^ then that would /ender unnecessary ttiy' further hiring for {he purple of clearing more land ; it b merely at the beginning he would find^it necessary to hire. ^ ' 2428. At what period of the year was this Dalhousie settlement formed ? — In th^ autumn. 8429. How did they provide themselves with food for the first few months ? — They purchased it at a cheap rate. 2430. What amount of money do you suppose they took with them, on th6 average? — I cannot positively state that. 2431. Do you think they had 10/. a piece ?-^ Yes, certainly. ,24324 Twenty? — It is a sort of ^ett; they came out with a very small sunr, and they lived on fish and oatmeal, which are bought cheap. 2433< You think they had more than lo/t a piece, when they came but?— I think it most probaUe they had. 2434. Could they always hire persons to assbt them in clearing the' land ? — Yes; always. 2435. If a great number went out at once, would they not find a difficuhy ?-^ I think*not ; labourers come/rom the States. 2436; Do you know the state of the land prepared' for the reception of the emi- grants i — It is covered with large timber. 2437. Ftam your general knowledge of emigration, will you state how you tiiink a body of two or three thousand weavers from England or Scotland, carried over to Nova Scotia, would be able to make their living ? — I should not imagine that the habits of weaveils would fit them ve^y well for an agricultural people. 3438. What growth of timber is upon this land?— A mixture of beech, bircb^ maple, cypress, and pine. 243?. They would 'become on thi ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 355 . 8439. They are maple and beech lands, are they not; not oak? — There la very little oak ; there m one district of oak, which is a very tliriving settlemeot indeed. 3440. Do not you consider the oak lands the best for settlements ?<»-No ; we think the mixed wood best for settlers, where there is a mixture of what they call in that country, hard and soft wood ; where there is a mixture of the pine and beech with the others. 3441. Immediate clearing is more difficult for the earlier settlers where there is a mixture, is it not ?— No ; there u not much difference, I think, in the expense of clearing. 3442. Do you know any thing of New Brunswick? — A little; I have been living there two years. 0443. Have you been up the river St. John ? — I have. 3444. Is there much unsettled land in tliat province ? — A great deal, very targe tracts indeed. 3445. And good land ? — Not so good as in Nova Scotia ; it is generally covered by pine timber, and that is not an indication of the best soil. 2446. What part of those provinces should you think best suited for Emigration on a considerable scale ? — ^There are tracts all over the province, which are all good, I think ; I cannot specify any particular place ; there is a larj^e tract of country "between the sources of the St. John's river on tbe one hand, and the sources of the Miramichi, which opens into the Bay of Fundy ; ttiere is a great tract of land quite fit for settlement. ' 3447. Are there any large masses of land, which have been granted to persons itithout any obligation to settlement ? — I know there are in both provinces ; and that has been a very great injury to the settlement of the provinces. 3448. Were they not in many cases granted under engagements for settlements, which have not been fulfilled? — Yes, dl those lands are liable to escheat; but Government have been disposed to listen to the claims of some persons owning them, under very peculiar circumstances. 2449. Have Government given any intimation to the grantees, that unless they proceed to settle them, the conditions of the grant will be enforced? — Certainly. 2450. Is the surveying department on a considerable scale in those provinces ? — Yes, there is a surveyor general, who, with assistants, has surveyed all over the province, for the purpose of laying out lands for the settlers; and there is a register kept of all the locations, and a map, in the surveyor general's office, of the grants. 3451. Suppose in the present year three or fopr hundred settlers ^ere sent out to Nova Scotia or'New Brunswick, (bey could be lodlted ? — I have no doubt of il| . If they were sent out not too late in the fall ; th#chopping is generally done before, tlie snow, and the building of houses is denes' to most advantage' in the autumn, before the sqow falls. , 2452. Do the people of the colony see with pleasure the arrival of new emi> grants i — Yes, they are delighted with it. The greatest drawback upon those colonies is the want of a workmg population ; wages are very high in consequence of that. 2453. 1^0 oot you think the colonies would be very much strengthened, as to their political existence, by increasing their internal population?— There is no doubt of that 2454. In the districts you have mentioned to have been surveyed by the sur««yor general, is it the practice in bis department to make roads where new settlers are expected to come r — Not in every instance. 3455. Would it be very useful to the settlers, if roads were' made previously to their arrival?— No doubt of it 2456. Would that give much employment to per^ns in the different parts of Nova Scotia? — Yes, most undoubtedly ; it is the most important step to the settle- ment of the country. 3457. Would it add to tbe value of the allotments, if the roads werp made?^- Very much. 3458. Do you conceive that would be a beneficial expenditure on the part of the Government?— No doubt of it; but the provinces always do it; it is done out of the provinciiU fuodt ; tl^ roads are always made as a tpaXb^ ot course. . 550* I i 4 2459> ^^ Capt. tttmy W. SaU, a. ». ) t ) ! ! Henrjf Cut. if'. Stott, K. N. 3 April, i8«7. » I I M 256 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE * 2459. 'C^n y°u ^*"™ Bny opinion as to the number of men who could find em •ployment in that province as labourers, if they were to go out^ — I should say'any number, with reference to the quantity of unlocated land. 3460. T)o you think a thousand could find employment as mere labourers r— r Yes, or a ereater number. 3461. You have stated in a former part of your evidence, that it would be necessary to employ a hired labourer at the beginning of the settlement ; supposing an emigration of agricultural labourers from England, or persons moderately skilled in agricultural labour, to be furnished with a year or a year and a halfs provisions, do you think that though not skilled in the use of the axe, they would be abl^ to maintain themselves after the expiration of that period i — I think that if Government were to give them two years provisions, they would be able to do it after th^t do their own land. > 3463. When you stated that settlers would be ftble at the end of five years to pay 3/. for their allotments, did you contemplate the sort of settlers who have gone there hitherto ? — I speak particularly of Scotch settlers, who are the best and most industrious. 2463. Do you contemplate persons who have no capital, or persons who have a capital ? — Persons who have no capital, or very little, as I have already stated. 2464. Is it your opinion that if three thousand paupers were sent out well pro- vided, and were tolerably skilled in ordinary agricultural labour, they would be enabled at the end of five years to pay 3 A a year for their land ? — Yes ; when I say they have no capital, I suppose them to be supplied for two years with provisions, that Government put them down under that supposition ; I have no doubt they would be enabled, at the expiration of that period, to pay 3/. 2465. What would be the value of those two years provisions for a man, bis wife, and three children ? — Twelve or fourteen pounds a year; and they will require a£eda, and implements of husbandry, 3460. Do you conceive there would be greater facility in emigrants from Nova Scotia going to the United States, than from Canada ?— The facilities are qiiili; numerous enbugh in Nova Scotia ; I have never been in Canada. 2467. Do you think that a great number of emigrants who have gone to Nova Scotia, have gone over to the United States ? — ^The greater number have gon^. 2468. When you speak of emigrants, you do not mean those who have been settled on lands in Nova Scotia ? — No, I mean the emigrant who has been laqdcd there, and felt his way afterwards to the United States soon after his Ifinding. 2469. That observation would not apply to any class of emigrants settled on land, leaving that to go to ihe United Stages ?t-No, I think certainly not; l^bbfiti, T die A '^/y-^:Z-<^ :^ wiLMbt mitro Hugh Dixon, Esq. ■• u, IN THE CHAIR Hugh Dixon, Esq. of the county of Westmeath, called in ; and Examined, 2470; ARE you aknd-agent in the county of Westmeath? — I am. > 2471. Is thern a great desd of poverty among the peasantry in that part of the country? — Indeed there is. 2472. Could you, in any degree, classify the lower orders of the peasantry, so as to describe the different circumstances under which they are to be found ?— The labouring classes who %Te employed by the gentlemen of the country for the year, are better off than those who ai'e only occasionally employed, a great deal better off. 2473. Will you describe the situation and the general habits and pursuits of an Irish peasant who has an acre of land and a cottage, upon any estate you may be conversant with ? — ^Tbose people I speak of, who are occasionally employed, nave not that comfort ; they generally pay^ d small house in toWn, and in the country » hut, to the under«tQnant, not to the landlord; they are very badly off; but those .'*■■.'■ ■m- EE ind em Bay*any irersr— r ould be jpposing ^ skilled ovisions, I abl^ to 'ernrnent rthMcio yean to Etve gone ind uAOBt 10 h^ve, a ted. , \ well pro> trould be :<;d I say rovisiQDS, tubt they , bis wife, lire seeds, Dm Kova ate qiiitb ! to Nova ont, ^ave been m landed lettled on ng' ■4. y^o nined, lit of the santry, so found ?— y for the a great uits of an u may be ^ed, have country off; but those 'ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 257 those that have the acre and the house in the way of freehold, are i great deal better off. ' ^474. With respect to those who have the acre of ground and a house, describe to the Committee precisely the avers^ condition of one of those famines, that is, «8 to how they cultivate that acre ? — They put potatoes in it, corn and oats, and they put their manure on it. . 2475. V/1iat is the value of the house on that acre, or the expense of building it 7-rThe acre is generally let in that way where I am concerned ; at a pound I value the house, and that acre at about three guineas a year. ; 3476. What would be the expense of building that house ? — I think you might build for about 10/. a comfortable stone house. 2477. And would that pay a rent to the landlord of three guineas? — No, I think it would be worth that; the landlord gets one pound for me acre and the house, and I think it would be worth about three pounds or three guineas, the intrinsic value yearly. 2478. How do you account for that, that the intrinsic value should be three rounds, and the landlord should only get one ? — That is in case of freeholds ; say one of the labouring classes who gets that, is a good deal better off than those who have it not, for instead of having a good acre, mey have on the other side of a bog a poor hut. . 2479. What is the manner in which the 40 «. freeholder you have described cultivates that acre ? — By putting his potatoes and oats in it. :. 2480. In what manner does he pay the pound he has to pay as rent to his landlord ? — With labour ; he earns it with labour. 2481. What are the wages of labour in that part of the country ?-— The labouring classes mostly, soihe of them are tradesmen, and some of those who are free- holders are carpenters and blacksmiths; a labourer is well contented if he gets what is called coristant work, with a gentleman in the countiy, at 8arts of the United Kingdom ? — I think they would all go if the^ could ; but un- brtunately those people that are for going are the most industrious, and wish to better themselves ; but the lowest possible class cannot ; I think they would be glad to go, if they had the ways and means. 2502. Considering the average price of food in Westmeath, and the quality of the provisions which are consumed by this lowest class of persons ; considering the nature and quality of their clothing, and all their expenses together (alluding to those that are retained in their own county and cannot improve their condition by removing to other parts,) what is the lowest sum per head at which you would estimate the maintenance of a family, consisting of^a man, a woman itnd three children, which are remaining in the county of Westmeath in th^ itate of the ioyreu class which you have described ? — I dare say it would no* be 3/. a-piecs ; I do not think it would take more than that, from the manner in which they live ; in fact, they have nothing but the potatoe. 2503. Can you inform the Committee of the general nature of the earnings of a family of this description ? — When they are employed they get more than the standing labourer, but that is only in harvest-time ; in others they sometimss get a shilling a day, and in harvest they get that and their Jiet; but it is about, on an average, in harvest 1 3. without that ; and sometimes their familie* or thi^ boyt get work. ^^ 2504. Taking the.average of these clfuses, upon whose property do they live, on the property of the landlords of the county ? — No, generally under uader- tenants, in towns ; and in country places, upon bogs. 2505. In point of fact, though they are actual' residents upop the propertl! of some landlord, may they be so without having anv immediate connexion IrHh tkfe landlord ? — Yes ; they are on the property of the different landed proprietors throughout the county. 2506. Are you of opinion that the estates of the landed proprietors . would be benefited, in the event of the removal of this particular clasa of pqpulation?'— ] have not the least doubt of it ; I think it is the wish of the landed proprietors to get it if they could. 2507. Would you professionally hesitate to give your opinion, thM h landlord having 4,000 or 5,000 acres, would do well if he could upon reasonable terms rid his property of this particular class of occupants ? — It would be a great benefit to him, certainly. ' 2508. Dp you not imagine that that pi^opcrty might, if rented by capitalists after their removal, make the returns of that property (no matter by whom re- ceived) much greater than they were prior to the removal of those fainilicj ?*— I think it would; but there are instances in which there would not be an interest. 2509. In point of fact as to those cases, though the landlord is designated by the term of landlord, he does not stand in the real relatidn which that tern de- ' ■■-*;.-- S ^■. scribes?-- ) ; B farmer bo has West- !r dan e more kS being re they er than >y come lome, if fes. toother butun- 1 wish to rould be }uaUty of DBidering (alluding condition on would md three te of the . a-piec8 ; tiich they umings of than the tim0s get it on an h^ boys they live, ' er under- operty of i%ithtl^ iroprietors wevldbe ilation?'^ irietors to landlord terms rid I benefit to ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: Hay. 359 scribes? — No; I think there he would not be interested, but die major tenant under him would ; I think it would be his the tenant's interest, that is, where he held under perpetuity. 3510. In cases where the soil belongs to the lluidlotd, but Where these leases are in perpetuity with the sub-tenants, you are of opinion the iAteilnediate tenant would De benefited by the removal of this lowest class? — Certainly. 3511. How would the landlord, or the intermediate tenant, be benefited by the removal of this lowest clasi of paupers, when the law gives them no claim on the land, and their presence reduces the rate of wages? — It A* man was occupied as a labourer with the tenant, it is quite a different thing, in my mind ; I speah only of those who are ' only occasionally employed, and where there is a redun- dancy of population. In this way, a tenant cannot go on wiUi his improvements with safeW; they break hedges, and they bum them; where the labourer is employed he does not oomplam ; I do not think it would be for the beuefit of the tenant or him either. 3513. Are you therefore of opinion that if there was a real demand for tf*e labour of these paupers, that in that case it would not be at all desirable to remove them?— Not at all. 35.13. -^'0 t^^ Committee to understand that you are applying yourself to the circumstances of those persons for whose labour there is no demand whatever, except perhaps at one season of the year, and who during the rest of the year are necessarily in a state of idleness and distress, which, combined, might probably lead them into acts of insubordination, prejudicial to the interests of all the rest* dents in the country? — No doubt of it 3514. Then i*. is only With a view to the peace of t!ie country that you think this removal would be advantageous? — It would be of great service to themselves, as well as to the peace of the country. 3515. Would the landlord have a better rent for that land from which a few of tb(|se poor families may be supposed to have been removed ? — In answer to diat I may aay I have known myseli where a landlord who had lands, let fifty or sixty acres to one tenant, and the family married and intermarried, and the land was divided ; it was afterwards almost impossible to get the rent ; I am collecting myself in that way ; when one had it, I could get £e rent easily ; but since it has , been cut up, I cannot get it with that satisfaction. 3516. Then, in point of fact, landlords are beginning to suffer in regard to their rents, inconsequence of this system of relation and subdivision? — I find it so. 3517. Describe the sort of mischief and injury which you observe to arise from this unemployed population? — ^They are guilty of many petty little things ; I de not wonder at it, I wonder they do not do more. 35 1 ^•- Do you mean that tliere is any thing like a general Habitual, petty pilfering going on? — I thinlf'it has been so. '7519. Does this arise from the actual necessity of their situation, so as to pro- vide themselves' with jommon subsistence? — I really do think so ; there is nothing, equal to the eagerness with which the Irish labourer will look for work ; if he hearb ef work within ten miles to be done in the country, he immediately applies ; ther6 are no people in the world who wish to be employed more than they ao. < • ts^'O^ You state that half of the tabcuiers consist of this lowest class? — I think they do in Westmeath. •'3531. Do you think tfiere would be siiflicient labour in U>e country if the whole bf ihitt half Was removed?-^! think there would be sufiicient to do the work. 3533. How long do you recollect the part o.." the country which yoti are speaking ef ?— I have lived m Westmeath ever since I was four years old. 3533. Can you mention at any partidiler distant period what was the state of tfiis countiy as to the labouring classes ? — It has increased within the last twelve years very much. 3534. What was the state of the country 30 years ago? — I cannot state that well. 3525. Twenty years ago? — ^The labourers were not noar so plentiful; I don't think there were more than half of the present number ; I think they have doubled the population in the town I lived in. 550. . Kk3 3536. At 7 April, 1887. r> If ' ,'!■ vl„ 7 AP'-'I. 360 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE JS'Jo. At the period of 20 years ago were labourers pretty well employed t—" better employed, thee, a great deal better. 3527. ( • you consider the part of Ireland of which you speak, as a particularly populous p<)rt ? — Yes, indeed it is. a53l{. ArA the lands v(ry much subdivided? — They are in many instances. ' 2529. You talk of viiec&uiii of thislowestclass costing 2/, or 3/. for its erection ; have you not seen a dry ditoh, covered with branches and rushes, occupied by a family ? — I have. 3530. La not the habitation you have alluded to as being near bogs, particux larly bad T — ^Very bad, nothing worse. 3531 . Are not many of these built upon waste pieces of land ? — ^Yes. 3532. Without paying any rent? — I do not think any are aJlowed to Luild^ widiout payiu£ some rent. 2533. Are they not buiii upon the bog itself sometimes ?— In mer y :mtanct4 on the very bog. 3534. Upon the «iere bog sod ? — Yes. 2535. Is not the ioof fomuid with a few sticks T — Yts, some -sticka tliro<,:n aOi<.>sft, 3536. Without straw? — Yea, but witli bog ^ods. 3537. What is the nature of the furniture inside one of tlcje huts? — ^They generally have a pot and a little crock, and vc'v few other urticles. 3538. What do they sleep npoK ; do they huve bedsteads of any kind ? — In very few instances. 2539. What do they sleep upon ? — ^Very ofton tusLia and urnvr. 2540. Are these hiibltations diviaed into apartmen'^s of uny kind ? -G^^neotlsy in one ; there may be one little partition. 25411 What sort of bed clothes have they? — O, very bad; th^'r clotbing ii; all very % ac?. 2542. il:v. ^.>^^-:... ..■*>.-..^^-i, . ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 261 ' persons, tends to system if the line d others. ; 2555. And notwuDsuuiaiDg tnese Gircumsiances, you cannoi avoia saying tnat e system of the lower classes of the 40«. freeholders is prejudicial to Ireland, as it iiltiplies population ? — I say so now ; I tnink it does. 3556. what is the food o^ this lowest clads of labourers ? — Potatoes, nothing ■ 3554. You stated he was in the habit of making these 40 «. freeholds for political influence ? — Yes, 2555. And notwithstanding these circumstances, you cannot avoid saying that the I ' - - mul else. 3557. What do they drink with them ? — In summer some of them get a little butter milk, in the winter seldom any thing but the salt and the water. 2558. Are you of opinion that this gives them a sufficient wholesome nourish- ment? — I wish they had better ; if they had a little milk with t!.em, I think it would be quite a luxury, it would be a great thing for the Irish peasantry. 3559. You have stated, that you conceive that many of them are half starving all the time? — I think they are half starving through the year. 3560. What induces you to form that opinion, is it any thing in their ap- pearance? — Yes, it is indeed, and the people are begging; though I have not 30O acres, I very often employ these people for the purpose of helping them. 2561. Does it appear to you that tneir children are not sufllciently fed, so as to be healthy children t — Certainly they are not sufficiently fed. 2562. Do you think that it has any visible effect upon their growth and general appearance ? — I don't know ; I think they grow up as well as possible under potatoes ; it surprises me very much that uey do look so well. 2563. Have you seen any of the statements which have been laid before the public, in which it is said that the people are dying from the want of sufficient sub- sistence? — I have heard accounts of that in the papers. 2564. Have you observed that in your own neighbourhood? — Certainly no». 2565. Do you think diseases are at all produced by this system of insufficient food? — It may in the places described, but there is nothing of that in my neigh- bourhood. 2566. Don't you think life would be abridged by their every day suffering for a number of years together ? — Certainly, I thmk so. 2567. Do you think there is any thing in the misery and poverty of the people, such as you have described in the county of Westmeatn, which prevents the people, from marrying? — Nothing ; they will marry, no matter what their poverty is ; they marry very young, and that is me great evil. 2568. Do you conceive that there is still going on a cont poor rate upoji which the poor have a claim, and are consequently chargeable upon the parish, that if the means of removing this poor by emigration costs less money than their m^ntenance, as far as the interest of rate payers is concerned, it is their ■'V ' ■ ■ ■ :'-':■,..' ..-^/''r'-'l interest Uk. IE rm the Nwd to operty, noving able to ofiv* 1 ntii- irut, u eiy few » when- i, that 1 lem bjr adviaed uld coat I should re them he other imething the elm- which h* ■ I diink 1 landed Eld 6,ooo te, and a 1 to suh- I a power of being if instead ty years, paying it tii% 1 do , it could tass a law trictions, rpose of reading imbrance r, in your |n to pay onsent to it will ouble in property the indi- limself of interest, ^f getting my rea- but the ling them a diredt jtble upon Iss mone^ lit is their interest ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa;. 263 interest to remove them ; but in Ireland, as appears from your statement •§ well as from other authority, the poor have no claim whatever on the land, cunse> □uently if they occupy a portion of land however small, and pay their rent for toat, it does not necessarily appear what advantage can accrue to the landlord of that property from getting rid of those persons, however unemployed and however destitute they mav be ; von have stated, from the circumstances of their being unemployed and beug destitute, they naturally become insubordinate, and that iq a certain degree, the peace of the country being afTected bv Uieir situation, all pro* perty may in a certain sense be deteriorated from that circumstance, but still it does not present that defined positive advantage, in a pecuniary sense, which the landlord is to derive from their removal ; if it could be shown that he could let bis land to other persons for a greater sum than he lets it for to this poor class of tenants, nothing would be more easy than to subtract from that increased rent the expense of emigration, and then to see if it is his interest or not to do it ; but until that is proved, this Committee are not able to satisfy themselves as to the direct pecuniary profit the landlord is to derive from the removal of these persons ; will you ffive the Committee any information with respect to that point? — These peoph do not derive under the landlord, if they did, it would be a great interest to him to get shut of them ; they are cottagers under his tenants. 3584. In the case therefore of those poorer class of persons paying rent direct to the landlord, you think he would have a positive pecuniary interest in removing them? — ^Yes, there is not a doubt of it, when he had not employ for them as labourers. 3585. In such a case as that, do you think he would have a pecuniary interest in removing them ? — There is not the least doubt of it 3586. In such a case as that, would you hesitate professionally to advise him to raise or pay money on his property to the extent of 1 /. a year ? — I would advise him to pay what he thought necessary, but I would not fix upon the sum. 3587. In that case you would advise him to consider the question of contribu- tion towards the purpose of emigration ? — I certainly would. 3588. Now as to the interest which the other class, the middle tenant, has in getting rid of his sub-tenant, do you consider that he would be benefited by the removal of this sub-tenant? — I think he would if he had one of the long leases I mentioned, or a perpetuity ; but as to the other tenants, thev set their little cabins to these people, and get rent which they would not get if they were out of it ', it would benefit a tenant holding under a long lease to get shut of them, but those that have short terms encourage these persons to come and settle on these little spots. 2580. You consider a tenant under a long lease to be much in the situation of a landlord, and that the same motive which would induce a landlord to contribute towards the removal of these people would operate more or less to induce a tenant to do it? — Yes, a tenant with a long lease. 3590. .Are you acquainted with other parts of Ireland besides that to which you have particularly spoLen? — I know a good part of Meath, and part of Longford. 2591 . Is what you have stated with regard to your own immediate neifirhbour- hood applicable to other parts of Ireland with which you are acquainted ? — I is to every part I know. 3593. Do you think the proportion of labourers in other parts of Ireland is as r'eatiy above what is necessary as in the part to which you have spoken? — : do. 2593. The diet of the labouring poor of Ireland being as low as human life can subsist upon, what would become of this population if the potatoe crop were to fail during one year ? — ^They would be in a dreadful starving way ; if the potatoe crop had not been so good last year as it had been, I do not know what would have become of us in Ireland. ' 2594. Do you think that if any number of this class of paupers were to be removed, there would be either the means or the disposition to prevent the vacuum being filled up?— I think it would be guarded against; I think landed proprietors and others would guard against it. 2595. Are you of opinion that there is such a conviction on the part of the landed proprietors in that part of the country which you are acquainted with, of 65Q. Kk4 the Hitgk Diimt, 7 A»ril, I 4 n 364 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ■"" ■ iii a n ' i llHgh Dixm, 7 April, 1817. the detriment which they sustain from this increase of population, that t*- y woald concur in all measures legal and practical to prevent the recurrence of — I think they would. 3596. Do you think the tenantry who have long leases, commonly known bf the name of Middlemen, would feel in the same degree the necessity of pre- venting in future the sub-letting of land ? — Yes, I think they would be cautioas ; I hear it much spoken of among middlemen who have lorg terms. 3597. Do yon think they have been sufferers by the practice of under-lnttingi with regard to their own pecuniary interests ? — I think they have, those that hit ; particularly in the war, the middlemen were very much injured by it. 3,598. Do you think they can make more money by farming their lands, than by under-letting?— I would prefer holding the lands myself, to letting them in smalt divisions. 3.599- ^'^ y°^ ^'^'^'^ ^^^^ ^^^^ feeling is becoming more general ? — I think it is. sdoo. Have any families been turned off* their lands, itt your part of tho country ? — No. 3601 . Supposing a landlord wished to remove them, would he find any difficulty ? — In the parts of Westmeath immediately adjoining where I live, he would not, but in the lower part of Westmeath he would ; I do not think any one would take it ; the people would not take it ; I could not get my bailiff* to distrain. 3603. In point of fact, if the population of this description, which you state to the Committee the landed proprietors would absolutely be afraid to eject forcibly, was to increase as you have stated you expected they will increase, do you not consider there is an increasing pecuniary interest on the part of the landlords to concur in the removal of such a population, and in point of fact, in the end would it not necessarily absorb the whole of the land ; — I think it would be their interest. 3603. Within your knowledge has any land of late come out of lease when a landlord has wished to remove the tenantry, and has not done so in consequence of apprehending j-esistance on the part ot the occupiers ? — There is a farm Sir Thomas Chapman has, of about 50 acres, it has been out of lease for some time past, and I was obL j^ed to let it by the year to the family of the man who died, in the barony of Moycashell ; I could not get any other to take it. 2604. Then in point of fact, though the landlords be ever so well disposed to diminish the population on their estates, there is this great practical obstacle in the way of it, namely* '^" residence of this tenantry ? — Yes. 2605. Do you not consider that in addition to the natural apprehension arising from this residence of the occupying tenantry, there i? uii indisposition to subject so many persons to such inevitable misery as a forcible ejectment would produce? — I am going to tell the Committee a fact, as to what I have done for a few years past, and that Sir Thomas Chapman did not know uf ; when people got into arrear I was to eject them, and I put another name in, as if I set it to another man ; I did it in three instances, and tho family are still in possession. When they don't pay, and are in great arrear, Sir Thomas orders to eject them ; I have told him I would, I told him that I had set it to another man, and I have done that; I know that Sir Thomas does not know the fact, but I tell it to the Committee ; I don't want to mention it is a secret. 3606. Why did you do that? — I saw the disposition of the country; and although Sir Thomas gave me his orders, I thought I did. better for. all parties in this way. 2607. What did you apprehend, if you carried the orders into execution? — I would not get any one to take it. 2608. Why? — They would be afraid to take it. 2609. Why? — It is the Captain Rock system in Ireland ; I was asked about the driver the other day, that is the bailiff, he is a confidential man I have in the different baronies ; I could not get him to drive latterly for me. ^ jio. Do yoii think this disposition to resist the landlord is likely to increase) or tO give way to the landlord's efforts ? — I think it is increasing in Westmeath. 261 1. Do yqu not think it is increasing in other parts of Ireland ?— From hear- say I believe it is. td» ■. • ' • " - 2612. What m\ m ,,: .•■jri'itiitg-imr-i-^iiiiiBf ry ; w>d bartiesin iitioa 1 ed about le in the L I fncrease, death. Dm hear- What ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSt;. 965 3613. What can you look forward to a< the general Mute of Irvland, or what must be the state of the country, if this dispoaition extends itself? — I don't know, it is horrible. David John Wilton, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 3613. IN what part of Ireland do 1 reside ? — In the county of Clare. 3614. Have you had an opportunity of hearing the evidence which the last Witness has given to this Committee ?— In part. * 3615. The last Witness described the peasantry in the county of Westmeath as being divided into two classes, one, the labourers who were employed throughout the year, and he described these as the most prosperous class of labourers, and the 9ther he stated was a class qnly employed partially, and he described them tu be in the most wretched state of destitution ; do you consider the state of the peasantry, in the part of Ireland with which you are acquainted, to resemble that very much ? —I thmk it differs very much in different situations ; t great deal depends upon where Miore is a resident gentry, that alters the situation very much. 3616. Would you describe to the Committee the manner in which the presence of the resident gentry can operate, to make so great a distinction as you apply to the lower state of pensantrv described by the last Witness? — I should state, that the general situation of tlie mass of the peasantry throughout the country is extremely bad ; I think the causes of that proceed from Joint-tenancy, from sub- letting and subdivisions ; I think it also proceeds, in a great measure, from early marriages ; and perhaps the greatest cause of alt is the present system of elective ftanchise. 3() 1 7. Do you admit that the causes you classify all tend to produce redundant population? — A redunJant population, and misery to that population. ' 2618. Do you consider that the main cause of the distress of the lower classes arises from redundancy of population ? — I won't say that, I won't go so far as to say that, because if that population were distributed throughout the country in a judicious manner, I think the country more than ample to support it, not only in Comfort, but in comparative affluence with the present state. 3619. Describe to the Committee the manner in which you can contemplate such a distribution, to produce the effect you advert to? — By dividing the land at present held by middlemen, and grass lands, among a portion of the present mid- dling description of farmers. 2620. Do you concur in the opinion expressed by the preceding Witness, as to the small demand for labour ? — Generally speaking, the demand is very small as Compared with the population. ' 2021. Do you agree with him as to the detailed state of the wretchednes which he described, and the habits of living of that lowest class? — I do. 2622. Do you agree with him in the opinion, that when that lowest class are in direct relation with the landlord, it would be to the interest of the landlord to discharge himself of them with some pecuniary sacrifice ? — I think that would branch into two consiflerations. I will suppose I had a tenant with a large family, who held ten or fifteen or twenty acres from me, and who was notan industrious Irian, or who did not pay me my rent with punctuality, and he had a lease of that bnd from, me, I should then be most happy to contribute towards the removing of thfit man; but. if it was a person merely holding a cabin, as we call it, and a cabbage garden, in that case the benefit I should derive from his ubncnce would Hot induce me to contribute towards the removal of him. 2623. Have you known instances where. the ejectment of this cluss :>f o<:aupants was practically prevented from a consideration of the conseq^;'Mi<. <3? — I have heard of it ; it has not occurred to me ; it is rather a peaceable pari of the country where I reside ; the parts of our county that have been chiefly disturbed are those adjoining Tipperary and Limerick. 2624. Has this system of ejectment been pursued in this part of the country of which you have been speaking? — No, not to any extent. . 2625. Should you apprehend the consequences, if it were pursued to any con- siderable extent, in the part of the country, where you reside; do you think the people would go peaceaoly? — I have found them do so, and I have been obliged to send away numbers^ I have been obliged to send away, 20 or 30. . 5^0. L I 3626. Are l/«f * Warn, 7 Aoril, ■i ff m m { |!lnf iM MINUTEB OF EVIDENCE UCFORB SELECT COMMITTEE \. , » 7 AjkU, 36i6. Are the perMiiK yom refer to of the loweit diueT — They ere of the lowcMt cIm», excrpi one or two. !i6a7. Have you brought new cornern in their Mrad ? — No. i!()j8. What huvc you «lonc with their ploce»?— A fiirm bclonffinp: to my family cnnie into my hitndt in the year 1819, after the expiration of leu**: 0' fio yean ; it i)»i(l but 18/. a year tu me ; thv ({tntlcman who bi-ld it of iny (rraoriuttier re« ciMvi'il 70/. per annum out of it; it wa» iet by him to otheri under ; u U-t .. .nry leant*, which he made to the tennnta who were on it. When that gi. . parate tenancy occurred ; some of them, when I called upon them in a hurried time of the year, have annoyed me by staying away, and I nave told them I would call upon them for their rent when due, and they have paid it to the day. I attribute their being able to do so, to my giving each man a separate holding. 364.';. You have stated, you disposseiised five families from the farm to which u have alluded ? — I dispossessed tour, and one I allowed to remain on the faring ut he went away. 364(3. What became of them ? — They are residing on land adjoining it. 3647. Have they got any holding on that laud adjoining it? — They have taken small houses fVom cottier tenants. 2648. Do you consider the slow progress of consolidating farms as leases fall in, would materially check the population in Ireland, while the system of middle- men and joint-tenancy remain prevalent throughout the i_c.uniry? — Decidedly not. 2649. Is there a large portion of the lowest class of the labourers without labour or employment ? — Ym, a very large portion. 3650. Would you. say that it is so much as half of them ? — No, I should think not. 26.) I. What portion of them is there that is employed, of the lowest class of labourers? — At the time of potatoe sowing and in the harvest, and at the time of turf catting, they are tolerably well employed. aSja. What time does their work begin?— In March or April. 96.*r3. When does it end ? — I should say it ended in .Func, about the latter end of June; they sow potatoes very late in our country ; I think about that time it ceases. 2€.;4. Rave they no employment after June? — Very little in general, except road making. 26.55. Are they then necessarily idle from June until the following March? — I don't say the following March, f stated the spring and harvest as the times they were most employed. 26.56. What part of the year do you include in the harvest? — The time they commence cutting the com, after that there is a cessation for a month or six weeks, until potatoe digging commences. 26.57. How many months in the year, upon the whole, would you say that tb«y were without regular employment ? — I think I could safely say that many of them are without employment for five months in the year. 26.58. How do they support themselves during that time ?— The poor people, who have merely cabins and cabbage gardens, have what they call con-acres, or muck ground, set out to them, which they take at a high rate. 36.59. Is that for planting' potatoes? — Yes. ' 2C60. What rate per anre will they g^veforthat? — It same way that they have, because I am not resident^ oimg to family circunu stances, wbich I could >eKplain„ and vrhich wonld be aatisfiwtmry ; but I have every iaolination to do good. 3699. As far as your knowledge goes, doyoucoaeur in the statement wh ioh- has been made respecting tlie condition of the lowest classes ? — Upon my estate' the tenants are rather comfortable ; but i belierc great distress prevails in other parts. I have employed nearly fifty labourers daily through the winter, and> planted upwards of 100,000 trees, besides improving farms to re->let; butfew>of my tenants came forward to procure worii, Ihey were mostly strangers. 3700. Do you consider that the population is rcdvndanton your property ?-». No, not particuladyoo ny property ; my tenants occupying, and not'sub-'letting;. generally. 2701. Doyoo'knew what proportion the population on your proper^ bears to the number of acres? — I caunot immediately say.; I have upwards of 3,oo» statute acres. 2702. How many people have you got upon them? — I suppose I have got about fifty tenants who pay me rest. 2703. Have not these tenants many sub-tenants? — Only two or three of thaa* have sub-tenants. 3704. Have they sub-tenants to any considerable amount f-^One tenant has a very large holding, and sub-lets to a considerable amount, but whose lease termi^ nates this year, and consequently all sub-letting in this case ceales. 2705. Are these 3,000 acres of yours cultivated? — Yes; there are about 18O acres of rock besides, called Carriokburn, most part of which! hope to plant, the re^it is cultivated and profitable. 2706. Are the estates in the coun^ of Wexford generally circumstanced in the manner you have described your own to be? — Some are.; Mr. fioyces and Ms. Ooff's are in a higher degree of cultivation and order. 2707. Does not the county of Wexford 'differ very much in its circumstances from n^any and most of the other counties in Ireland, from its having the -supplff principally from the market of Dublin, with many articles of food through the port of Wexford?-'— I think it has a great advantage in its exports and imports with Dublin and England, its navigation in both respects being well circumstanced. 2708. Has the sy,stem of sutidividing landextstedimuoh inthe county of Wei* ford, of late? — I believe not; the system now islarge farms. 2709. Are not the farmers of Wexford, in genertd, persons of some properfrf and capital ?^— Generally speaking they are tolerable; but some are considerable. 37 to. Does it appear to you that they obtain more profit from farming their land than by under-lotting it, as is the practice in the southemand western part* of Ireland'?-— I think; Bub<^letting not general, and consequently not profitable. 2711. Have you been employed someyears in clearing your estate of tenants? —Last yearl had occasion to eject three or four who were muchin arrearofrent. 2713. Did you find it in the state you have described it to be with regard to population? — Not incumbered with population. 2713. You statethat about fifi^ tenants live on these 3,000 acres?— ^About 50 tenants I pay me rent; there are a fisw of them have sub-tenants, amounting in the whole to about twenty. ' 27 r4. Did you find it in that situation? — Yes, I found it in that situation. 2715. Were there not more tenantry on it than you describe there to be now? -^No. 2716. In point of fact you are not in a condition^ are >you, toeonsider the question as to your own interest iu removing a part of the population ? — I would consider it to the advantage of the landlord to assfst any tenant, who failed in his payments, to emigrate, and I would contribute thereto if the tenant willingly and voluntarily surrendered his lease. 2717. What is the state of the labouring classes in the county of Wexford? — I believe there are a great many that requiie labour ; but few of my own tenants are in that state. 87i^Do ■i »" J ^' ss Tf«wt ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : 1827. 271 >v. 2718. Do you coniider that that is owing to an original state of circumstances there, or owing to the particular pressure of the times? — The superabuBilant populatioii occasions the demand for labour. ' -fi' S719. Can you speak of the state of labour in Wexford? — No. 3720. Have you heard the last Witnesses speak of the state of the labouring dasses in the counties of Westmeath and Clare ? — I have. 2721. Is there any such state of things in Wexford? — I believe not, except n the towns, where there is a redundant population. - 2722. Can you assign any causes which have operated to prevent that state of things in the county of Wexford, which you have heard the Witness describe as being the c:ue in the county of Westmeath, and in other parts of Ireland?— I think the industry prevalent in the county of Wexford occasions less time for other pursuits, which richer soils may afford, the county being mostly arable, and re- quiring much labour to produce crops. If the labouring population of Ireland were employed upon interior navigation and road communication, in the unem- ployed months of the year, particularly for the next three months, I think it would be very desirable, for many reasons, and alleviate great distress likely to prevail ; they might be had for sixpence per day. 2723. Have you ever taken into consideration the amount of money necessary to give them that employment? — I have not. 2724. When the three months are over, what is to happen then? — ^The harvest would come in to employ them. 2725. Has it ever occurred to you, that the number of persons wanting employ- ment in Ireland amount to probably a million ? — I have no doubt the labouring class amounts to that. 2726. Have you calculated how many millions of money are necessary to give thenf employment ? — I have not. 2727. Do you think turnpikes on these roads might pay the expenses of the labourers ? — ^Turnpikes would be detrimental to agi iculture. 2728. How do you propose to raise money to employ them? — I think grants from Parliament, assessments on the county, and individual subscriptions. 2729. Are the assessments a good deal complained of? — The present system is much complained of, and gives rise to great jobbing and dissatisfaction ; under intelligent and professional men it would be otherwise. 2730. Is the diet of the labouring classes in the county of Wexford principally potatoes ? — I believe principally potatoes. Usui Cm. Riittrl Bniwur, i!f)l ■?1 ider the I would failed in willingly iford?— n tenants 7i«t J)o John Bodkin, Esq. of Galway, called in ; and Examined. 2731. ARE you acquainted with the vicinity and town of Galway? — Yes. 273a. Is the state of the population in the neighbourhood of Galway particu- larly wretched ? — -Not so bad in the immediate neighbourhood of the town of Galway as in the inland part of it 2733. Have you had an opportunity of hearing what the rvc first two Witnesses who have been examined to-day, stated, respecting the c: .dition uf the lower classes? — ^Yes, I have heard the three Witnesses that have been examined. 2734. Do you mainly concur with them as to that state ol distress, as shown by the nature of their food, and the general state of their condition ? — Yes, decidedly ; I have no doubt of it 2735- Do you concur strictly as to the causes i^*" the redundant population, which have led to this result, as particularly st'vted by Mr. Wilson? — -Yes, in a great measure ; I do entirely coincide with him. 2736. Do you consider the joint-tenancy, forty-shilling TreehoUs, and subdivi- sions of farms, have all operated to produce that result? — Decidedly. 2737. Are you of opinion that this evil is in poiider these terms and conditions, are you of opinion he would be disposed to contribute towards the removal of these ten fami- lies by emigration, provided they were consentient to it? — I ani quite satisfied the majority of landlords would be. 2753. Considering how general the system of con-acres, 40^. freeholds, joint- tenancy, and subdivided tenancy, still remains in Ireland, would not the process of consolidating farms, as leases fall out, be too slow materially to check population for many years? — I am quite certain it would ; its operation would be very slow. 2754. That being the case, supposing by emigre.*ion a considerable body of the poorest classes were imme.diately removed, would not that void be speedily fiUe^up by the tendency of the population so to increase? — I am quite certain 2755. Would a proprietor have the opportunity of keeping his estate clear from the coming on of any new people, if he chose to do so? — That would depend on the manner in which the leases were drawn. 2756. Suppose the proprietor incurs considerable expense to reduce the popu- lation of his estate, will he not have, under the present state of the law, abundant opportunity to prevent the influx of fresh people on that estate, if he chooses to do so ? — Yes, by the sub-letting Act he will. 27,57. But notwithstanding the landlord should do all in his power in that way, will there not be a continual increase of population going forward upon other estates ? — I am quite certain there would. 2758. But supposing it were to be the general practice, in the case of property falling out of lease, to increase the size of the farms, and to remove tne extra tenantry ; and supposing the proprietors, who contributed towards the expense of the removal, were to act steadily and systematically, to prevent the recurrence of population upon their particular property, do you not think that alone would form a security for the repression, to a certain extent, of the population in Ireland ? — Certainly it would, to a certain extent. 2759. If combined with other remedies of a legislative nature, do fou not think it would be a growing counteracting effect to the present system, under which population has so increased? — I thmk it would, but it would be slow in its operation. 2760. You think the effect of the remedy by emigration would be immediate, and the tendency of the population to diminish would be slow ? — Yes. 2761. Have you formed, in your own opinion, any idea within what number of years tiie population of the country you are acquainted with has doubled? — I cannot say, " * 2762. Has it increased very much? — Yes, it has. 2763. Is it increasmg still ? — I think it is. 2764. Is the practice of dividing land among children going on? — It is quite prevalent throughout the county 1 reside in. 2765. Is the proportion of people who are employed very large? — No, I think not ; there is a very considerable want of labour in that country, and thoy cannot get employment. 2766. Are there any that can get regrular employment during the year? — Yes, those who live in the neighbourhood of gentlemen residing upon tlieir property. 2767. Are farmers ricli enough to give employment to a regular set of labourers through the year? — No, in that county there are a number of grazing farms, and on them but a small extent in tillage, of coume little labour is required. 550, M m 2768. You JoinBodkm, Eiq. 7 April, I8g7. ( # It '.#- I 374 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE \d %y. m -e Mn Btdkin, K»q. 7 April, 1837. ."•» 3768. You have stated, that although a practice could immediately commence from the time of the falling out of leases, of ridding all the extra tenantry from the lands, and dividing them into proper proportions, still in your opinion the I>opulation would increase ; what conceivable measures or circumstances do you ook to that would effectually diminish that tendency which takes place in Ireland, to the prejudice of that country? — I think preventing the subdivision of land would contribute in a great measure towards it. 2769. But v/hat other measures of n practical nature do you look to, which can remedy the evil ? — I think an alteration in the elective franchise would be a great means of accomplishing it. 2770. But still would not any check be verjr imperfect, which did not interfere with the existing engagements as between middlemen and joint^tenants ?— Yu, ■ certainly. 2771. Is the habit of early marriage prevalent in the country? — O, very^veiy early. 2772. Do you conceive the Catholic clergy contribute to that by their influence? — I cannot say they do. 2773. Do you think they take any pe'.ns to check the habits of early marriage, by advising persons not to marry until they can see what way they can provide for a family ?— 1 cannot suppose that the clergy of any persuasion interfere ; probably if they are consulted, they would give their advice or opinion ; I am not aware that they volaateer to do it. 3774. Are the people themselves at all sensible of their own condition, . Jndof the evils they suffer in consequence of their own numbers ? — No ; they feel probably 'when they want clothes and food, but beyond that, as to any remedy to be applidd to their situation, I believe they never consider it. 2775. Are you aware of the extensive petitions on ih't; part of the j)oor,Ahioh have been < sent up from tie sooth of Ireland, to be assisted to emigrate? — Yes. 2776. Do those petitions come from the poorer classes,, or the class above the poorest 1 — I have known no petition from the county I reside in, to enable them to emigrate. 2777. Dc the proprietors of land find a difficulty, when tbty wish to remove tenants afte- a lease has fallen out, in getting rid of them, and providing other tenants to ti Jce thei: place ?— <-Not in the county in which I reside ; I don't think landlords huve roason to apprehend any bad consequences ; they must feel for their situation, yet still they are unwilling to remove them, although their interest requires it. 2778. What in point of fact becomes of the^e people, when they are so removed ; do they become occupants on the adjoining land ? — Perhaps it increases the diffi* culty on other property, and contributes to the sub-letting of the property next to it. 2779. Have proprietors in the county of Gal way proceeded to clear their estates as the leases have fallen out ? — There has been a great increase of the number of freeholders legistered, and I think there seems to be a great rage to increase it. 2780. Do you know the fact, of a remission of rent to pauper tenants with a view of inducing them to give up the legal claim they had on the property? — I have done it myself ; I have had 1,000/. due by a number of common tenanis, I have said. Plant your potatoct*, pay up your rent to the last May, hold the place ^till next May, and then quit, and I will give you a receipt in full to get rid of you. 2781. What would be the amount of that year's rent upon an average?- — In the farm I allude to it came to about 790/. 2782. Therefore, in point of fact, you gave 790/. — I did not give it out of my pocket. 2783. In point of fact, you gave up a ■ ^al claim over 790/. to get rid of these people ? — Yes. 2784. What became of them? — They went on the different properties in the neighbourhood ; that was the evil which I wish to get rid of. 2785. Can any thing more clearly demonstrate the opinion entertained by yourself and others, of the advantage of gettinjr rid of this class of persons, than a consent to sacrifice a legal claim to that amount? — It would be a desirable object that something should be done for the people ; I think combined exertion on the part of the landlords would render such a thing unnecessary. 2786. How many families did you get rid of? — I should suppose about 52 or 53 families, they held about 552 acres of land. if 2787. What ^y estates [mber of lie it. with a fcerty 1 — I tenanb, place af you. -In the jt of my I of these in the ^ned by than a le object on the Iit52 or I. What ON EMIGRATION FROM THfi UNITED KIHGDOM: 1837. 375 2787. What i« the nature of the combined exertion you allude to? — It would be that the landlords should exert themselves to have a Mtter system of husbandry introdaced't for the consequence of the introduction of the lower order of tenantry into the county in which I reside, is, that they exhaust the land, and after a few yearait is totally unequal to support them ; then they are driven to subsist them- selves by taking con-aci'cs, whicn effectually rains the man that doea it, from the bi^b rent they pay for it; and if there was a failure in the crop, they would be obliged to dispose of any substance next at hand to sapport themselves. 3788. Can any improvement in the mode of agriculture take plaoe» except under the consolidation of farms? — Np, I think that would add materially to it. 2789. Do you not consider the^ removal of the population essential to the im> provement of hnsbandry^ in Ireland ?-^Tb a certain extent 279a. You have alluded to the combined exertions of the landlords, but it appears'from the succedihg answers, that you do not contemplate the possibility of that combined exertion' being carried into effect, except as coupled with the removal of exti* tenantry? — No, they should go on wi^ that,' without the extra tenantry being removed. 27gi. Ji ityour opinion that the people might be employed sufficiently by this improved system of husbandry? — If there were capital to enable the farmers to emjploy the people ; if they had not capital they could not employ them, that syvtem* couhr not go on without it 27^2. 1$ the real evil, then, this general want of capita) in lieland ?-^DecidedTy. Fthink' the want of capital, in the connty in which I reside, has contributed in a great measure to the distress of the people, for ihe farmer cannot afford to employ them, and the people, for the want of labour, must be in a very distressed, miserable situsrtion. , 2'jgs: Seeing.that the progress of thirincrease of population is-so rapid and so great, ffom your -experience of any improvement that may be going on in Ireland, 00 you contemplate such an equivalent increase of capital as shall be at any time adequate to employ this great population? — That would be a x^ery difficult question t6 answer; I cannot- see th'rougfa' what channel that capitalii to come into the country.' 2794. ^Vhat•is*the usual size of'lhe farms ?—Fh)m 400 to'500 acres, down to one- acre. 2795; Thien whafproportton, of the country with which you are best acquainted, is possessed by persons having ffbnr one to ten aftres? — I should suppose bne'third.' « 2796; If a diffisrent distribution of' the land were made^ and farms from 20 to 25'acres were the smallest, do you conceive the same extent of population would bte required, under any circumstances, if capital were to be employed in the culti- vation of lands so divided, that are occupied in the manner now described? — It would depend upon what extent of the lands codd be converted into tillage; I uhderatood the drvrsion of the landlvas to b* into ftkrms of twenty acres. 2797. If one-third of the country with which you are acquainted is occupied Kypersons wlvo have potatoe grounds orsmall far. is, extending from one to ten acres now, if a change in the mode of letting was practised, so as to give persons not less than twenty acres of such land, would all the persons now employed in tillhig the farm of one acre up to ten acres, be necessary for the tillage of the land when divided into twenty acres each? — Certainly not. 2798. In fact, would there not be a reduced demand for labour if there were an iinpravement in the mod(^ of itusbandry ? — Certainly. 2799. Then all these su|ierabundaDt persoMi, in this view of the question, might be removed? — Decidedly^ 2800. In the part of Ireland with which you are acquainted, are tb*re a great number of persons who have no other apparently available source of living than beggiiig ?— That is a very dlHicult question to answer; but I can only say that thetr famiiies'are begginij, and not the individuals themselves. TIir practice in the county Iilive in>is way, do they leave the country, itad waiMJer? 5.S0. * / ' . -The , M m 2 7 April, 1817. 376 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE i'''il \'iii Jakn Bodkm, Esq. 7>priJ, 18S7. ^ -■*, — The head of the family, the man, comes to this country to work ; the wretched wife and children travel through the county and the adjoining counties. 2802. Is this a practice that is general? — It is to a great extent, but not general. 2803. Are there some hundreds who do this ? — More than that, a g. eat deal. 2804. Would the Witness, as an Irish proprietor, be disposed to co-operate with the government of thif country, in removing the surplus tenantry from this estate ? — That is a thing which would require a good deal of consideration ; I would first weigh well, if I had a common tenantry so placed, if it would be for their advantage ; that would be the first thing I should consider ; an^ secondly, I would consider if it would be for the general interests of the countiV, that is, for the' advantage of the empire in general. Though I say it would be lor the advantage of the landed interest to remove them off their property, yet there is still such a quantity of waste land, I think these people could oe very usefully employed, and afterwards their service would be of great use to the State. * 2805. You must be aware that no waste land could be .(^ultivated without some expense ? — Certainly not. 2806. Now be good enough to imagine the circumstance of a man, his wife, and three children, ejected from property in Ireland, whom it is considered de- sirable to place on some waste land, could you inform the Committee, of the expense thai "would be necessary to place that man upon that waste land, so that he might geun a livelihood for himself and an independent subsistence ? — It would depend in a great measure upon what terms the land upon which he was to be placed was obtained, and what value the proprietor would set upon that property. 2807. Taking the average of waste land, which, from the circumstance of its being waste, must be of very small value, but requiring cultivation, which can only be carried into effect under circumstances of expense, would you have the goodness to direct your attention to the detnils of the expense, so as to furnish « comparison between the expense necessary to ha incurred by removing the parties to the colonies, where land of such fertility is in the proportion of ten to one over the waste lands of Ireland ? — I think some of the waste lands of Ireland might be made extremely productive, and probably a g.?i^t deal more than a great propor- tion of those at present in cultivation ; for instance, in the lands on the sea coast the weed is burnt into kelp ; if the population were living on the coast, they could apply that to the cultivation-of the land, instead of making it into kelp. 2808. As the waste lands must necessarily be very cheap, and ^of little valu^ can you account for it, that individuals looking out for a purpose to which they can apply their capital, do not take these lands to cultivate them, considering hdw cheap the labour must be which they can procure under the present circumstances in Ireland ? — The capitalist is not in Ireland ; and the capitalist of this country will not venture his capital in Ireland until he is satisfied of a security ; and until the country is in a state of tranquillity, no capitalist would venture to embark his property in it. 2809. Though that may be the case generally, do you not think there would be instances of individuals r^ady enough to use their capital, if they thought it would answer? — No, I think the risk would be too great. 2810. If these waste lands were divided in the way yqu suggest, by way of affording employment to people, would not that circumstance itselfbe a new cause for increasing the population ? — Certainly it would, but it would be a remedy for the present moment ; in the county I live in, Galway, there are more waste lands than would give employment and subsistence to all the families '^ho have emi- grated from this country for £he last five years. 281 1. Would it not be possible that the progress in the population that woulS accompany such settling on this waste land, would still keep the general state of the people in as depressed a condition as that in which they now are? — ^I think not. 2812. If it could be shown that the expense of placing a man and his wife and three children on the waste lands in Ireland would be no more than that of re- moving them to the colonies, and that there would be an equal chance of success for the independence of that family so placed there, there could oe no doubt it would be ill worth their while to remove from (jbe country, and consequedlly this question must depend on an accurate examination of the expenses necessary to be so incurred ; and as the experiment of igcolonizatioa in Obnada has been « made^ •p- ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED RfNGDOM: 1857. 277 made, and has been iiiccesaful, and as the experiment at home has not been made, there is no data upon which to form any comparison ; it would be desirable, there- fore, if the Witness could inform the Committee as to what expenses would be requisite to enable a peasant, placed on the waste lands of Irelana, to support him- self independently, and pay back in any decree the expense incurred for his loca- tion there? — Why the waste land that I allude to, he would get for about 5«. per acre, probably considerably less, that is, 5«. the Irish acne, and supposing him to have ten acres, the capital he would require for that would be about ao/. which I apprehend is not so much as it would take to send a family to Canada. 2813. iiow long might he and his family maintain themselves in a state of indepeadence upon these ten acres ? — Every vear, after the first two years, his comiort would be increasing, because his land would he improving ; it would be brought from an unproductive state to that which is productive. 3814. Do you think a labourer, his wife, and three children, who had ao/. given to them, and who wtfre removed upon ten acres of waste land, might be enabled to support themselves and their families in a state of independence ?— I think they would, at least in the county I reside in, I cannot speak to any other; I thi^ they would in Galway. 2815. Is it not extraordinary, if it is so much to the interest of the parties to Set rid «f this tenantry, and if it is to be done upon such easy terms, that nobody as made the experiment to try it? — I am really at a loss to abcouift'for it; but, unfortunately for the Irish character, they are attached to the place where they are bred, and unwilling to remove. a8i6. Supposing these ten acres of waste land, from having been unproductive, ;/ecome productive, don't you think, according to the Irish practice, the tenant would be disposed to subdivide his farm, when his sons or daughters became marriageable ? — Unquestionably, unless it was guarded against by the proprietor. 2817. Would not the progress of population be still going forward? — Unques- tionably it would. 2818. Would not these ten acres, in the end, be insufficient to maintain that man and his children? — Not the family of five. 2819. When these people grow up, would it not be insufficient to maintain the descendants of that family ? — 1 would be at a loss to cdiculat^ the ratio of the in- crease of the family. '2820. You have stated that you remitted 700/. to son-e people, to quit? — Yes. 2821. If you had reason to believe they could be planted on these waste lands, and prosper, at an expense of 20 /. per family, do you not think you would have made a better bargain in removing them, under these circumstances ? — That would baVc been a double loss, the families would have taken that from me, and I should also have had to pay afterwards for them to emigrate. 2822. You say you could have got good waste land at 5«. an acre; why could you not have planted these people there, and have found them employment, sO that they should pay you rent? — They would not go there. 2823. Did you get an increased or diminished rent, from removing those tenants ? — A very diminished rent, for tlie land the^ held was quite reduced in quality. Thomas Spring Rice, Esq. a Member of the Committee, made the . following Statement. • ' IN order to acquire information with respect to the subject which has occupied the attention of the Committee, T ventured to circulate a few Queries among Sersons extremely competent to give information. I hold in my hand the Answers 'hich have been given to me (together with the questions) by one of the most extensive Land Agents in the province of Connaught, and one of the most intelli- gent individuals. I consider them so important, par^cularly as they are accom- panied by a rental, and a statistical account of one property in the county of Mayo, that, with the permission of the Committee, I will take the liberty of putting them in. • ♦ • 550. ^ThfPapers were delivered in and read, and are as follow :Ji / Mm3 7 Apri., 1817. X f^' %>> t. :/ ' T4oinM5.1tiK', Eiq. uji MINUTES OF EVIDENCE DElvjRE SELECT COMMITTEB fl it li m No. I. I. DO you knonr many en mi in which ii would b« worthwhile for a landlora to contribute 30/. (or 3/. 101. fur BBTcn yearx.') in order to ensure the removal and comfortable loc. ' ion of a man, his wife anally to an ex- eeuiite pauptr ftopuhtion. 1 kiiuw but of two instance 4 of villages being wasted on the expiration of leases; and notwithstanding very great expenve and pecuniary leitrri- flees by the landlord, the torment of the proteedingwai intolerable. 6. If No. 2. . T«i«nl»' Niinin. N'.mbfr or Families Id each Yearly Il*n«, EnglWi Curriiiic^r. • r ARABI.K CONTEMN 1 Tswalud or Lhm. and PaMtirr. N».i. Arable awl Fa>iu-r. rH^iiira not Arabic. Nh.1. P. 11 me lUll Arable. N.J. «. liuimmblr. WMa nut I'ruHl.ble. Suiiinutjr«( 1 >0|ialaiiM. £. (. sfi C. - - ,» i f, >9 II 34.3 41 16; 3-37 G 1 13. - !)<3 5 ^3 5 D. - - 4i> ! i.j 11 3 »3i 1 »■ 41 1 17 S5 4 18 rA «i4 3i> 1 31' fiO-o 37 E. - • 4«' J?''J- i» -J 114AO 18' 31 O'tl 3^ ■■)& 7J > 34 1 ui» 70 1 u F. - - 74 307 14 3 ISO 34 'ill II 44- 9 :» 101 1 3© a 53 n-i 3i G. - - 39 >38 a - •101 3 II 36 -.8 i.'i 7 8 1 31 1 3 7 54 1 II H. • - 13 104. - - 75 1 '« . 8*8 8 y.i " 1 1 ' 3 i(i I'ii 3 ij •J(i4 i ;)4 .|;'i ,l8 97.1 9 .35 1, - - »9 18 9 , M. • - »9 65 7 . - - * . .— L. • • — ' 33. eo' s H .. - . 1 - M. . - _— ■ 8 93' 15 4i -•. ; . 1 . 1 ..- N. - - _■ 13 33 1 (ii - ,- • - • 0. - - ••« 9 6i - , - ■- - - ■ - P. - - ,8 30 ti 8 -■ - - ,,-, K. ■ - ~~ «5 >>9 37 > 7. .1 ■ - - ^ a/ji li 5 1 . ,„. ._, 1 • - - ■ Toltl Fanilies • 403' »! -• • ♦ Total Reti > ■^.> IJ 1 -2 1 J ■iH •' 3+ ;J4J 38 -•75 •■' 35 6 IJ 5 5 1 8 «3 93 9 '7 «5 38 3 15 3 7 54 iiti 4 13 3 3 6 • 1 - 3 3 3 ' (> 36 3.> 54 iiG 3C 35 80 '51 t *, ;;'=^? ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSaj- 279 No. 1 — continued. evil «xi*tt nipreMiol prudenoi) in to paid u liM im- ner R\ lem ly Ike ex- Dceeiled t> of the law to an ex- o instance I leaMS; and i'.iaryiei»''ri- leediiigwai 6. If ; WMa nul Pnifiriible. A. n. r. 55 « «" C 3 5 70 I o ■29 ■i 3* 54 > >» o I H «7.'5 3 35 « ■# 8 Q75 « 35 - !» >'75 '^ 35 £. irthe population were reduced on townlandi where it now exiita in exceai, do you conceive that the pro- prii tors of land are geiu- rally aware of the necessity of clucking the recurrence of the evil in future ? I hdieve the exintencc uf the evil, and the neceiiity for rJK'cking it, to be univerHally admitted ; ond Uiat the prevalent desirr to increase the 401. freehold intorest, can uloiie overcome it. To create ami extend this mott gritwui ttunanet, all considerations of |)olicy and pro pvrty are invariably laid aside. I consider the object of the law against sub-letting moitt salutary in this respect : I know not of any pro- creding as yet under it. If that Act, as Sir John New- poiiH Ejectment Bill, supplied its own forms, it would, in my opinion, bo a great improvement, by facilitating its operation. It so ollan happeni that estates which are overpeopled are the property of persons who, from various causes, are unable or incapable of contributing towards the re- moval of its inhaoitants, I consider parochial assess- ments the most expedient and equitable mode of for- warding a general plan of eniifrration ; regard being had, in the applotment, to the number of houses and inhabitants on each townland, in reference to its capability, from soil and other cir- ouniHtances, to maintain them ; and "^ "ly opinion it is the plan most calculated to tnake aiui kup pruprietori and paruhiontn aliv evils of a ledundaot population. ^, Do you conceiv. that the alteration of the law, by the Act against sub-letting, increaseN very considerably the lanHlord's means of checking the increase of popu- iution ill future ? 7. Supposing the benefit of an extended aystem of eiMi.',i.ition to bo admitted, with reference to Irish in- ti'iesui, in what mode do you think it eaa best be canied into eHect? ^o.^ ' • RUMBZR OF IkmVI ) 1 UVEBTOCKi Tmla or Occupalion. HALES FEMALES J X i 1 J 4 s ^ i C/J i k i s 1 t 1 i s 1 s d e i 1 1 i 3 s to 1 i I % i 1 6 >J 36 30 13 78 3 «4 33 38 18 85 21 38 3 10 • 1C7 37 5 5 »5 8 3 4> 3 6 >5 13 1! 47 4 - 4 - - »9 - 3 1 8 7 4 »3 33 - 4 7 8 8 97 7 - 5 1 - '3 - •3 «3 33 36 38 sR 13C 13 10 43 33 34 121 38 - 50 - 11 63 - 47 9 »7 3« 33 34 103 c «5 33 36 3» 121 «4 - 3G 4 5 64 - 18 >5 38 54 58 35 180 9 30 57 37 36 1C9 35 - 68 G *7 107 - Go 3 «5 34 31 32 95 ( 11 33 94 18 93 •3 .- 33 3 G 110 - >4 ■ a 7 10 «3 8 • 40 1 5 7 7 ." 3> 4 - 19 1 - ■lo - 5 5+ iiti ai3 >74 139 « 40 95 217 »74 167 ''93" iiG — 943 18 49 583 — »97 5 2 ■^3 » 12 '4 56 3 7 iC 12 7 4 + 8 - 27 1 3 120 - 34 4 7 20 5 6 5« - 8 14 13 14 48 »3 - 21 4 9 53 - 3» 4 13 10 21 23 71 4 10 >5 33 16 e? 8 ** m. 17 3» 1 33 - 21 1 1 9 3 10 9 3 sC 3 3 6 3 G 20 4 - 10 3 - - - ! 6 1 H 7 3 3t 5 3 >S 6 3 33 4 - 17 4 5 33 - >4 - 3 6 7 1 »7 - 3 3 3 3 10 - - 6 - 3 >9 - 4 A, It, p. 3 a 9 6 3 23 1 4 6 I 6 18 C - 10 1 1 30 30 7 Leaie ipcciiiea 45 « 3 ?'■ 16 i# >3 50 3 7 22 1(5 J3 61 4 - «4 1 1 30 307 3" J3 lii D* - i*to» 96 3> »«7 81 m 335 Jl 45 97 7+ «7 300 47 _ 123 »5 14 • * * . 54 uC 213 1.74 139 6(,fi 40 9J 217 >7t lfi7 Gi;3 116 - 343 18 49 583 - '97 , aG 35 117 81 m 325 >7 45 97 74 G7 300 47 - 122 >5 14 307 30 121 80 "51 330 •i55 ■20.5 1,021 57 140 3'4 348 334 993 163 - 365 33 C3 890 30 318 M m 4 IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) '^s 6r ^■ W 1.0 I I.I 1.25 ■i^ lii §22 !S 1^ 1 2.0 U |i6 Photogrsfto Sciences CarporatiGn ^^^ 23 WBT MAIN STRIH WIBSTIR,N.Y. M9M (716)172-4903 a8o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE m M Mr. Ttaim HtrntoH. i ' 7 Apia, -** ft ♦. > •■ ' 1 ' ! . *. .^i% ^Iv:; '• '*'.- . • ■^^T" * . »" • * K ;;# _ ;• ,. v-^ar* 'i^ Mr. 7i(offu» Huntm, called in ; and Examined. 2^24. ARE you a master manufacturer residing at Carlisle ?— >Yes. 2825. How long have you been conversant with the cotton trade ? — Partially,- 30 years ; I have been a manufacturer 1 8 years. 2826. During the whole of those 18 years, have you lived at Carlisle? — Yet, I allude to Carlisle. 2827. During your experience, did you ever know such a depression in the cotton trade as at the present moment ?— ;Nothing like it 2828. From what period do you date the commencement of this great de-^ pression? — ^About last July twelvemonth was the beginning of it 2829. What is the principal cause to which you ascribe it? — Certainly an over production, a deQ^ient harvest, and the altered state of the currency ; but simply as relates to our manufacture, I believe we are injured mostly by the power-loom. ^830. Is the cotton manufacture in Carlisle and its neighbourhood exclusively confined to the hand- weaving? — Yes, with one trifling exception, where there it old machinery, which cannot be worked with profit at present 283 1 . What is the amount of persons, men, women and children, dependent upop hand-loom weaving in Carlisle and its neighbourhood? — I can only speak supposititiously ; I have made r> calculation taking in 20 to 40 miles round; I think about 5,500 families, comprising from 1 8 to 20,000 persons. 2832. Are they houses or families? — ^They are families; perhaps two in a family may weave ; in some instances, the son and the mother of the same family are weavers. 2833. What is the average rate of wages of an able-;bodied hand-weaver by the week? — I have taken out 15 of my men, 5 of them are employed at the best work,' and pretty constantly employed, and I find their average net earnings to be 5«. 6d. per week, deducting all necessary expenses of loom-sent, candles, tacIQing, &c. ' ;• 2834.- How many hours a day must a man work, to obtain that wages'? — From 14 to 16. 2835. Is that rate of wages on the,declin* or the increase? — On the decline. 2836. Within how short a •period has a reduction taken place ? — ^Within the last week^ 3837. Cap you describe to the Committee thu diet on which this population now subsist? — I should think principally upon potatoes, and perhaps a little butter- milk and herrings. ^ 2838. Do you happen to know of your own knowledge, if they are in arrear of rent for the houses they occupy ? — I believe nearly the whole of them. 2839.' How much rent do they now owe, generally speaking, in Carlisle, half a year or a year? — A year I may say confidently, but in many instances more. 2640. Do they generally occupy a single room ? — Yes. 2841 . What is the rent they,pay for a room ?-r-They generally take them with a- weaving shop, with four or more foomsjattached, that is, a shop*K>r four workmen, and the price varies of course, I belieye from 61. to 8/. per annum. ^42. Then in point of fact they are at the mercy of their landlords, and may be ejected atjiny time?— Completely so. 2843. Have they pledged tneir furniture in many cases ? — I dare say*the most valuable articles have been pledged for twelve months past 2844. Has the power-loom machinery been progressive latety, or can it manu- facture a specil^ of goods,' particularly checks, which it could not within a very short time ? — ^They are making the attempt, though they have not succeeded to a great extent yet, but I have no doubt they will ultimately be enabled to manu- fecture checks by power-looms ; at present they certainly excel in plain cloths. , 2845. Is the fabric woven by power-looms superior to that woven by hand ?— It is generally superior to that woven by hand ; they aic obliged to ^e a better quality of yams. * 2846. You being conversant with the trade, and knowing the facilities the power-loom gives for the manufacture of these articles, oo you entertain a reason* able doubt, even if the" demand for manufactures increased, that the ^#er-loom could easily supply it, witfeout the aid of hand-loom weaving? — From th^ate at which it has increased of late years, I infer that it may certainly become equal to the lull supply of all the plain cloths, and probably, in a.short time, to checks ' likewise, that is, to two coloured patterns. 2847. From Desk £cUne. t^ithinthe I it manu- hin a very ceeded ^o 1 to manu- cloths. y hand ?— e a better cilities the 1 a reason- o#Br-loom th Aate at le equal to to checks ON EMIORATIOM FROM THE UNITED KINGDOlK: tla?. 28i 9847. From jpar knowledoe of GaHisle tnd its aeig^ibouriiood, ara there any other means of profitable employment open to band-kMm wearen, if they ctfase tt weave l-^Voat whatever at present S8481 Is not the rate of wages generally on die decline in that neighbourhdod, lik elii er in agriculture or manufactures ? — I believe labourers wages have been re- 4geed, in consequence of the number of hands that may have been thrown out of employment among the weavers ; it has generally that tendency. 3849. Are you not aware that a very large body of diose hand-loom weavers, fbebie their distress and entertaining aojiope of employment at home, are willing (o emigrate? — A great many, I am informed. 3850. Have you conversed with any beads of families that are so willing ? — I have, within the last week. 3851. Have you any paper to give in?^— I have one, contaiiyng 15 of my own men's earnings, drawn out for the use and information of the Committee. 385a. Did they express a wish to emigrate to anv p«irticular put of Ameri&, or merely to be assisted to leave this country ? — My impression is, that if tlwy were sent to Canada, theu object would be to go to the United Stirtes ; they * wre ganf rally the best and steadiest workmen who wish to le«ive tjjie country ; they only ask to be sent to Canada. ':■■ 9853. Your best hands are those who are most anxious to go? — G'enerally "king, it is so. itf^ Then they would have no disposition to become egrioultural settlers? — '<»■ Mr. 7 Apm, 'ita7. MytMrin impression is they would not ; but if sent to Canada, some might settle Am* •» agnCDUund labourers ; but I think, with the majority of them^, their object 1M«M- taisly, and particularly within the last year, arising out of severd causes; the deficiency in the dtop of last harvest has contributed to it in a very material degree. 3860. Do you conceive the relative bad position in which these hand-loom weavers aire now placed, to arise more from the competition of the power-loom, tl^ firom the other causes that have produced the general distress within die last eig^ityenQionths? — I do conceive the extension of the power-loom has had a most' BWIto'u4 ^^^ °^ °*>T trade. 2861. Do vou think that the parishes in whic8 this manufacturing, population is' now found, would be dispoited to contribute towards die expense of their removal, on the groMnd of saving their poor-rtte ? — IMy plead their inalNlity to do sa; I have asked die question. yt . * 2B68. .But if they havK; an ability to pay a g^reater sam'of money for the main- teaaace of their poor, bow is that o^aqtatible with thuir inability to pay less ? — ^The real situation of our countyr, I am apprehensive, has not been properly understood ; ^ mannfiMsturing popiilation do not bear the same proportion to*the agricultural as it does inlimctLibirA and some other maauhoturiag counties, and there has beea a large sum contributed by puUic aHhaoriptioD, aM a great deal giveq by private cbaritict* Which of course hte kept down the charges on the parishes rimterullyt atidof QMiee the rates; eoMequcatlythepoor^rates have been lower' than migbl ba iup^osed compatibiii with the extent of suffering and distrcfsil amongst tbt manufacturing poor ; but those sources of relief are fast drying up, and' we whole must fidl ^w on the parishes, from the pressure of ue times on a// classes. « ' 3863..Ie Dota latwe proportion of this manufacturing-popalation of Carlkile and iti neigfabmiihood MOtdli and Irish 'Wthoiit parish setdcmenta? — ^Tfaere at^% good many with and withoMt parish' settleHMn||||i.; sevehJ of the Iridi^ hiVe 550- N n sftquM k^' n ■f-t '*■ J. W' m ■% 847. From '^^ 98a MINUTEH OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. Timi Unnlan. «. 7 April. 1837. uL. '>• M\ .■y?*' •.' » acquired settlements when times were better, by renting shops of four or tix looms, with a small dwelling attached. < 2864. Is it not consistent with your knowledge that those Scotch and Irish w1h> have not acquired settlements, and who if they applied for relief as casual poor would be liable to removal, suffer extremity of want rather than make such i^Ur cations ^ — Many of them have done so, no doubt, and manv have been sent away on applying for relief ; but the officers have discontinued that practice lately, 1 believe, in the two parishes, and they give them casual relief. 3865. They do not remove them? — ^They seldom remove them nOw; cami»l relief has increased from aoo/. to 600/. per cent within the last twelve months. 3866. When was the last reduction of wages?— Last Tuesday morning. 2867. There was a further reduction then ? — Yes. ' 3868. And the>reduction has been progressively descending perpetually for the lljst 1 8 months ? — It has. 2869. What would be the effect on your situation as a master manufkctnrer, !)rovided a considerable number of these best hand-loom weavers were iretpoved rom your district ? — In the present gloomy prospect for business we flipuld be benefited, inasmuch as the expense uf supporting them would be saved. Cer- tainlv it is not the wish of the master manufacturers to part with their men, pirti- cularly to a rising rival nation, were there even a distant prospect of employing &em profitably at home ; and I am sure nothing but extreme aistren induce the men to think of leaving their native country. 2870. As to your situation as a master manufacturer, how would you maintiuh it in that case ? — I must naturally expect that our business (provided we continite to follow the same occupation and make the same kind of goods) must neciessarilT diminish ; I have no doubt that in the course of a few years the steam looms will monopolize the whole of the plain work. 2871. But in the situation in which the trade at present stands with reference to the hand loom and the power-loom, provided such an increase of demand were to arise as existed two years ago, what means would you take to maintain your trade, provided your best workmen were now removed? — Of conr$e we should be obliged to continue to do less, but a'short supply would only last for a few months; for the demand increasing, the- extension of the erection ofsteam looms would yery soon be ^ual to it, and would in fact very soon again glut the maHiet with gDOdss 2872. Therefore the demand increasing you would do less, and the steam>lopm would do more ? — Yss, that is most likely to be the effect. 2873. Is it your opinion that the same extent of manufactpre may ba main- tained, in the manufacturing districts, with a much diminished population? — No doubt of it, from the improvement in machinery. 2874. It being more profitable to weave by steam than by hand, and die power- loom meeting the demand, with an increased jupr'v. all other channels of industry beingfuU, what must become of the hand-loor .'crs if they remained in thii country ?— J cannot contemplate what would b consequence ; I think misery in the extreme. 287.5. Has the prospect of emigration engaged the attention of the people who are suffering in Carlisle ?— rThere nas been a petition sent up already. 2876. Was diat sien^ by 6j h'sar'.s of families? — Yes, I saw some of them, and they said M there naa been tiiie the numbers .would have been doubkd ; they see no prospect of any termination to dieir sufferings, but OQ the contrary the last reduction makes them consider their case hopeless. 2877. You being conversant with the cotton trade, and Jiaving passed your U^in it, have you anv doubt, from the present aspect of affitirs, even if ihe demand nMe improved, that hand-bom weaving is an occupation which would very soon oaase in this country, upon the scale on which it-has hitherto been conducted ?^ — There will always be a certun extent of it, for faiicy or light goods, and perhapa for a number of shutdes where many colours are introduced; but that most of necessity be to a diminished extent . 3878. Does not the trade of the hand-loom weaving;, now rest «^^ the tax for printed cottons ? — In reference to ginghams it does. • \ 3879. Then the >epeal of that tax, coupled with the improvtSiiMint of die power-loom, wQuld almost be immediately fate! t(^ the hand-loom wecv«v would itOOtt— =Yes, it woulj Ihrow n^rly the iJl^c of our hands 6ut of emplpy; *" ' /r . 2880. Do ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa?. 383 a88o. Do 70a eoDteiAplate uy mode of aasistuice which oould be given to theeeputiei, so effectual an that which can be given by emigration? — None, that Ikm awafe of. * 9881. Will yon hare the goodness to mention how the repeal of the tax on p#intM goods would operate to throw these hand-loom weavers out of employ ? — fihr reducing the price of prints, and making them cheaper than we can make gingham ; the gingham manufacture has arisen to its present extent under the protection of that tax ; and if that tax is repealed, our goods will not come so cheap into the market as prints, on which there is a du^ of 3i^it4»t in propoftion I0 the demiMli aSgo. Is h hatge, wiA r rf < i t— 1 1» any fermer period bfpMnperityinttadn^^ It is, as &r as nr^ obeerrathNi'gnea. 3897. Do yon conceiva ^me i* a larger stock in hand now than there WM 18 nionths ago?— ConsidtNlbly. , 3898. Even if the demand iilNM to inemuCi would not the overwhelming com- petition of ^e power-loqm ^imUa you hand-loom weaving manufacturers ftom increasing w«g«s, even il handi i^ere fewer t — Certainly ; that is what wi apprehend. 3899. If the demand continues bad and the stock is still increasing, how (joines ijt that you continue, as a ma s t ei mandhcturer, to go on still increasing that stddi f -^We have been led on this wtaler with the hopes of a better Spring tr|de. ^ which we have manufactured more freely fkan we ought to have done; ^e fbM ourselves disappointed, there is not the demand that we anticipated i and in %f home trade there has been a material falling off, and still must be, untU We luite another and a better harvest; for I consider the late deficient harveit hpll ^ egainst trade generally, and own in particular. . a9po. Manufacturing has proceeded not upon order,, but on tipn? — During the last winter it has been so ; m January we ex^ instead of which ^^ cannot now get within 10 per cent 0$ A^e < 2901. Where is the market for the oonsmnptMn of yoof) pally?— The h«iw trade. 3902. Then in the' southern districts^ of Scotland and.in dininotth of Shghnd^ ^ harvest having been very bad hut yeai, has taken away the me«nm fW>m the farmers and others, to. purchase the usual quantity of manufi|aUi|ed goods wuch' sn the getaeral state of th« ocuntiy ; the power4oom would stiltbe >ear gresif enemy ; thpra is likewise the present uncertainty of the Com Laws, as well as the ieStkia^x^ feropsi ttad th« more maMirii^ effiscts'prbdtieed by the sdtfcSpntfed nlMiMon tethe Mfrency, m destroying jconfidenoe, dinuoishing |t!i4iital,and>dtyfog*apitl|eigMnMi of employment * . [J}» WitHett delttertd in the /dUaiping ftfer.] . ♦ • >• D MnMi ing com-| irenfronl wbat w«i hatttddlt trid«^ io4 in tDf MMprittsip iEtighad^ I, ftit^i Ae «ly».biit as puftfeatio. loodlo tba larirdly oar now«enr KpariaofM? 91^ the ttate ucb' w tbt awff ;'*li|w« Moafatihe ■:!;.! jnrSMMilbATlOlfTROM THE UNIIBD KINGDOM: 1R17. 115 'Hi, £010111 AoM MMth 3d to March aSUi. »l«7i , 10. B* . . i> • : th D« -■ . CMS Sm. I i«900 I • • 1 . . 1 - • BiMHk. * m 08 • • 8J10U. ■ ■ r £. *. 4 - 10 4 weeks, at 3/6 *. «. d. »4 Wi WiU&ti, fwm March 3d to March 30th. 6 Cuts, at 6«. Paid for Winding Loo* Rent ■• . . Candles, Taeklingi &«. f. rf. 4 weeksr at 6/ £. 1. 1 i6 d. £. : d. - 13 - ;^ » ' 14 - ,1 5 CuU. at 6«. W. Reed, from March 3d to March 31st. £. *. d. Rent Dwaaing,: Candlei, TacUiiig 1:} I 10 - 11 at 4/9 £. I. d. " J 1^ " /. Graham, from March ist to March 31st .£*■• ». .4. . f £. «. A 18 «. d. Winding - - - - - - 3 - Loom Rent - • • -4 Dfcaaing, Candles, Tackle,'Ac. • - • 4|, Cult, at 4*. flrf. «. a. 1:} 9 ,- 550. 4 weeks, at. a/3 -• « Kn3 aft. .7 Ap* mi' II »■'•<■ iV I k r:*' ■ «■ 386 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE nEFORE SELECT COMMITTBE Mr. 7 April, Rickard CUntoH, Febroarjr aTth to Mveh 3Ut. 6 Cuts, at 4/6 WindiDg IDJ - - . - Loom HMt DroHing, Candki, Tackle, Ac. I. tf. 4 i wedu, at t/io £. «. d. £. 1. d. 1 9 6 ' - 9 8 ^^ la i/io - m 9 J/. Ruddick, from March 5th to March sotli. 4 CuU, at 4/0 Windina ing - Loom Rent Drctaiog, Candlei, Tackle «. d, H} £. i. d. - 18 - - • - 3 f weeka, at 9/10 1 «. «. rf. - 10 - Richard Beil, from March lat to March 31 at 4 Cuti, at 4/6 «. 4 - 4 week*, at 3/6 £.■ I. i. - 14 - W. Undtrwood, from February 3iat to March 30th. 8 Cut*, at 4/ Windin Loom Rent Dreeii ng , Candles, &c« «. d. : : It] • - a 3 J 5 week*, at 3/10 1 £. J. d. £: $. * I 19 ~ - 19 7 - «9 lol - - 5 and thei [TBE 4i i« 9 f. rf. 10 9 « e. f. i. f 15 • PN KMIQRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. aS; jtokrl GvMne/y, from Fcbnutry a6th to Mtrch 31st. 10 Cait, at 4/ WiadiM Mm H4 Loom Boat DrtMiBg. Candlot, 4ic. «. if. 6 a A - 9 6 i. : i. • - - «4 • 5 wooka, at 5/0 <- f. 4. I j 10 D. Pattitum, from February 19th to Much 3itt. • Cou, at 4/ Wiadina d. ing • • • • Loom Roat DreMinf, Candiot, Tacklo, 4ic. 5 4 I £. I. i. 1 19 - - «3 6 J wook», at a/tt I. I. i. 18 Finl , 5 Weafort, at the bett work ; nat earningt inV 4Wflaka, £. 1. 9. 6. J; Socoad 5 Weavort, at 9d best wodc ; net oamingi in v 4wcckf, 14/3 / lird 5 Weaven, at a li|fhter Ml or dcMription oTI vork ; the aTtrage. calculation per week, about 3/1 1 -J Third work £. «. 4. 4 10 - a 16 11 468 iTmaM Mflf/M, 10* dxt Aprilis, 1827. The Right Honourable LORD BINNING, IN THE CHAIR. 7 April, 1897. '1 €. I. i. - 9 - - 14 e. «. t. - 19 5 M) April, 1897. Alexander HutUer, Esq. of Edinburgh, Writer to the Signet; . called in ; and Examined. 2907. YOU were employed, in superintending an emigration? — From the Aksandtr Hm>t*r island of Rum ; the estate of Maclean, of Coll. Eiq. 2908. At what period, did that emigration take place ?-• Last year; in the '' " ^ month of July last year. 2909. Of how many persons did it consist ? — The last emL^r;- iion, about 300. 2910. Were they embarked in one ship ? — ^There were two sLips. ' ' 291 1 . State to the Committee the terms upon which those persons were freighted but tdgether, with all the particislars relative to the expense of their nourishment, and so on ? — ^The expenses cam^ to 5 /. 14«. per head of each adult person, upon (he average. . 291 2. What was the expense of those who were not adults ? — ^Two children from seven to fourteen years of age are reckoned as an adult, and three under seven. '3913. What was the duration of their passage ? — About 37 days. 2914. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee the particulars of their allowance of provisions ; does the 5/. 14*. include all the expenses?— Every expense. 2915. Passage and all? — Everything. 2916. Will you have the goodness to stat*. the particulars? — ^The allowancs I shall state to the Committee; die Committee are aware there is an Act of Par- liament with regard to allowances; but in this case, upon application to Govem- 550. N 11 4 men^ 1] 3M MINUTES OF EVIDENCB MK)}iE SELECT COMMITIIE Ahatnkt Hmtrr, to April, ''MBM^ • s> ment, thev diiMBMd with tb* aUowMM. and oatniMl ipilMd of beaf subRtituted, only ■ very amall proportion of l)^ef. Tbe WMxIy allowance to vb adult was, eleven pounda of oatmeal, three and a half pounds of bread or biacuit, one and a half pound of beef, half a pound of melasses, half a pound of pease or barley (either,) a quarter of a pouna of butter, and the allowance of water, of course that cost nothing, but it is 35 pints. 3917. What portion of that quantity of provision did they conaame during their voyaae ? — ^The allowances wer« laid in for 1 a weeks, that is according to Afitof PaiUament; but they were told when thnr went onboard, that whatever was o'^r, they were to get for themselves, and of coarse thev were very sparing, and Ihey had proviaions when they arrived, equal to HiV* tnen for two or three months. They were on board 37 days. But I must explain, that a number of them had salt mutton of their own, and potatoes, exclusive of the ship's alloivances. 2918. Of what class of persons were these emigrants oenerally? — What we call the Crofters, in tbe islands, and some of thtm were numera ; some of these people had money, a good deal of money. 3919. What is a Crofter? — A man who paya rent from 30«. to 5/. apao. A man who has a small bit of land ? — Exactly so, a small bit of land. 39a i . Where were they taken to ? — To Cape Breton. agaa. Butnotlocated there? — Not located oertninly, but merely landed there. 3933. The expense that you have named, is merely the expense of theiL^and- ing f— Merely the expense of their landing. 3934. Are thesfr individuals satisfied in their situation at Cape Breton ; hi^ve you any evidence of that kind, of any satisfaction that there is? — I have only one letter from those who went last out ; I have one letter, dedaHng themselves perfectly satisfied ; but I have some letters from those who went some years agoi, which perhaps may throw some more light on the satiafaetioii they felt 3935. Have ^ou any particulara relative to the other emignrats ytm also super- intendedJ-vJ-didnotauperintend the first 3936. It appears then, that these people were amply supj^i^d with provi- sions, and that part of thr * expense might have been spared ? — Certainly. 3937. Can you form an)r judgment at all how much might have been spared, as for example, do you think that they might have been snipped and landed at Cape Breton for 30«. less per head, or how much less, in your jttdgpcnt#-Why they might; there is a risk, however, btcause instead of 37 days, Oey migbt have been 47 or 57 days in the passage ; by the average of the passages, certainly one half might have been saved. 3928. How was this 5/. 14J. paid; was it paid by the people themselves? — No, by the proprietor, who gave a sum of money to assist, them. 3939. Are you not of opinion, that the highland proprietor has consulted his own interest by that arrangement ? — He certainly has. 3930. Because in seasons of scarcity, I presume they feel themselves bound by custom to support the population ? — By humanity. 39<^1. And somewhat also by usage ? — ^Why, « man cannot allow hia population tostarvct^ 2933. Was it in consequence of the introduction of sheep farming, the improve- ment in fanning into that district, that it became desirable for theae people to emigrate ? — In the island of Rum, it is all sheepna you could barmy suppose it possible that they could raise as much grain as would feed so large a population, therefore the proprietors got little or no rent, the tenants were obliged to lay out the price of their sheep in supporting themselves. 2035. Then I suppose they drew their rent from the kelp? — There is no kelp on that island. 2936. What has been the effect on these persons } what is the present situation of the island, compared to its former situation ? — Instead of a population of 350 people, ' there is a population now of. 50, and one person has taken the whole island as one farm, and of course he is enabled tb pay a higher rent, as be has not tQ maintain so many pa<^l«. • •• 2937. Could niE beaf WM nee to tm or biMiuit, 1 of pCMM r wftlir, of me during cording to A whatever ry iparing, vo or thrcR ber of them raocei. -What we na of theae sf land. ded there. theiiL|and« retoo ; h^ve ive only one themselves years ago, • I also super- with provi- uly. teen spared, )d landed at lentl^Why ' mient have ertainly one smselves? — onsulted his es bound b]r a population the improye- e people to as any thing, ny act of the I you could Hild feed so teaants were re is no kelp lent situation ation of 350 in the whole be has not ON BMIORATION FROBp THl UNITBD KINGDOM: ila;. aly 99sy. CooM ibrta of that isli uIFh th tiM Oomoiittoo any idea of what would have boM the that population had not emigrated T — Certainly. to do so? — The population wotild have the population increased, the rents would ^93: Could 993S. Will yon be good enougb floaa on increasing, and rf conrse as qiainiab. 993^ Can ifon (ttmisH the Committaa at all, with any data of the number of individuals it would be expedient, if it were possible (and I will suppose for ft moment it is possible) to send front tha western Isles of Scotland, iron the westem coast of Seotland ? — I think tbay could spar* ono-tbinl of tha population vary easily. 9940. Do you moan in tha iafaHids?->-In tkn western biffhlandaand islands. 3941 . Was the whole of that eipense home by tba huMMrd, or only a part?~: The landlord paid tha whole of that eapenan. 394'a. Of 5/. 1 4«. per head?— Yes. 3943. Mave you stated bow many went? — I think about 30a 3944. Have there been many peopled settled in the island since? — No parson can settle there without the leave of tha proprietor. 3945. Of this number (300) that went, how many were children? — t believe I have an account of that at home, if I had it here I could tell you exactlv. ^946. Can you state the whole amount of the expense, in a round sum r — About 3,000/. I think, somewhere thereabouts. ^ i|#7> For removing this number ?^— Yes ; the way it wu done wu this : thae {teople owed a great m 4/. to loo^ ; some paid 4/., and about 100/. I think the highest was. 3949. There could not be many paid 100/. T — Not many, one or two. - 3950. Be so good as to state the extent of the general class of the property farmed by the smaller class of farmers ?— It is impossible to say ; the land there is ranted at 800/. ayeais and it contains 30^000 knglisb acres; it is impouible to say vshatexient any on^ person possessed. f I fiiMrDiil you go with these emigrants? — I did not *• 30$!.. Were they willing to go? — Some of them were, others wera not very; wilbng; they did not like to leave the land of their ancestors. 3953. You stated there had been a letter' from them? — I have one letter only;' there have been several. . . ■ m 3954. What account does he ^ve ? — A very good one. 3955. Whan did this emigration take place from Rum? — In the month of July laat There was an enusrration partially, but not at the landlord's expense, fonr or five years ago, from.CoU and Hum. . . 3056. How. is the contract, made with. the shipowner, for the removal? — ^At so much per head ; and he is bound to give them certain provisions, according^ to &a] scale that I have stated. '.V - ^j.7' Was the contract madebynpenni well acquainted with shipping?— •' Wliy, we know the average rate per ton ; we made inouiry of the different ship» owners, and We knew 'be rate per ton of the ship) and now many passefagevs she would carry, and in that way we came pretty nearly to know the expense ; we knew ths' expense of meal and biscuits, and therefore we were pretty well aware of whether it was a fair contract' 11958. What became of them when they got toCape Breton? — ^They landed there,. when they met with a great number' offriends, who. had gone noa the neighbouring islands a few years ago. > ' 2959. Did they set land ?-^They got land ; a numbar of diem had a little mpnaviwi^ tlwa; ue friends of tboaewho had no money assisted them, nnd' they became labourers to their friends ; and those who had money got grants of; land, t 39^. State to that« 55c- ' "O o " or MAprN^ ilS7. Ht; -i^ I* AmU, 1N7. '^L- «■'!*» iroSSi •90 Miinrrti of bvidencb bbpobb sclbct ceimrrTHr « • * HmHr, Off croAm, whoM mU m from 1 /. Si. to 40/., tvcnging Tl^i.^S^i mmI tboiv tre fourltrgt tamtnla, whoM rente «ra from loa/. to lAoT, Averaging laj/. ; Mid under these UrKe tenente ere e ffreet number of imell croftera. In thie iilead tiMM U e good deal of kelp mede ; ebout 3.^o tone. The Duke ie boand by .the 1 to toke the kelp from the tenente it 7/. per ton, by giving credit for which 1 the rental of the ■mill tenente it diechersed ; in feet it lo peid in ftill; whet they romiae to pey ei rent he receivee in kelp, end they pey no rent Thia ye*l^ believe, he got ebout 4/. per ton for the telp, eo 1 understood. If you take the Avenge of etch family they average very high in the Highlands ; but if yoajak* them at seven, it will give 3.045 souls living on crofts, and paying rent, thai it,' including children ; but then one half of the people have no crofts at all, thaj are living upon the bounty of their friends. 3961 . Do they fish T— Very little ; there are about ten boato, five men to eaeh. 3969. Then one half of the population is a burthen on the other half? — Yee, or upon the proprietor ultimately. 3963. Are there many horses T — I believe there were about 3,noo horsee at on* time, but they are very greatly reduced. The system in the HighlHtids is verr much like the Irish : The son or the daughter of one of the crofters marries, ana the father allows him to build a hut at the end of his hut, and gives them a cmfi ftc. ; he is not a tenant or a crofter at all, he is living on the bounty of othert. F 3964. Do you think that money might be well expended in removing this lation ? — I thmk it might very well indeed ; I don't know that it would put money into the landlord's pocket to be at the expense, because the farms wi Uien Decome much larger, and any person who had money to stock a large hfn would expect to live a little better, he would eat up the spare produce, and indv)^ lu a few luxuries. 3965. Don't you think the increased rent that would be derived from the laailt would more than pay the interest of the money required ? — I mentioned that th* rent would not increase much, because there would oe introduced a different daw of tenante, who would have a little capital, and who would live on luxnriea co^^ pared with the present crofters, who live on potatoes and a little oatmeal. , , 3966. Is there any other estate you can mention T — ^There is Maedonald of Clanronald, the Islands of South Uist and Benbicula. This is a large ij^gi i I do not know the extent of it The population is about 6,000. Therel9p4iB9 ■mall tenants or crofters, who pav rents from 1 /. to at /. averaging 6/. 1 74^ W. ; 14 large tenants, who pay rente from 3a/. to 400/. ; there is one man pays 400 ^ ; tfiese Kftnm 86/. 15«. Under these fourteen large tenante, there are 307 siA- tenante. 'There are annually manufactored about i,300 tons of kelp on Cla»> ronald's estote at Uist 3967. In this island? — Yes, of Uist, which belongs principally to Clanronald; dks kelp does not belong to the tenante, as in the Duke of ArgrH's case, for th« manufacturing of which they receive from 504. to 60 «. per ton, which as nearly u possible discharges their rent On this estate about one-third of the popubwon possesa^frlands. 396lfln« thepeople upon this property of Clsnronald's, and npon the ett«t# of the IsMnd of Tiree, are they many of them in a stote of apparent misery m4, destitotion ? — ^Very great indeed. 3969. Have they shown any di^Msition to emigrate! — ^Tbey would be highly delighted to emigrate. 3970. Has that disposition been encouraged or discouraged bv the great tMMui(» and ue proprietors? — ^They have been encouraged very much of late. .. 3971. Has any emigration taken place from either of those islands? — Nona, at least to a very limited extent, merely a voluntary emigration ; it has not been paid ' for by the proprietors, but at their own expense. 397V. Are the number of people diminishing or increasing in those islands?-^ Thev are increasing ; in the Island of Tiree I fimcy the population is trebled i^'; the last forty vean. 3973. In the circumstances in which these people are placed, are they ev«r exposed to great suffering, from the want of provisions ? — Very frequently; I eaa.' state with regard to that, the sums of money that have been expended by die ptQ»^ prietors in several years, for keeping them alive. In 1813, ClanroAald expeiutid 3<353'' 7^' in purohasii^ meal for these poor people ; in 1 815, 111/. itt. ^d. | . in 1^16, 34a/. 8«. 3d.; in i8i7i 4)565/. lit. 5^.', in 181 8^ 1,136/. igt.Sd 2974- And ff^¥- (M IM^QIUTION FROM THB UNITBD KJNODOM: tl«y; 191 Mil ndtlMM leltMM licb nus h»t U1C7 lit yM*f taketh* , thklia, ill, Umj otach. -Y«f,or ndalg* thelMid» Itkttth* irent daw riaico«>- donald of yi40oJL; 207 mb- on CImi* uiroMld; e, for the nearhru opuwUMi :h« MtAte '■', highly^ -Nona, at bam paid' ilandaf— rabled is bey y; lean the pro* - iipenM 11*. 5*1 D74- And W4- And ao rani or kab in aiekaagaT— Of ooana thu kelp batonfad Ibe kelp alwaya ba • the I proprietor, waa a kamin 10 ua contrary. S75. Tban tbia aapanditura doea not appear to bare been kM to the propriaiorf era waa a diminution of tba rental to that eitcnt tgy6. Tben do yov lee no cbance of any induitrr ariting in theae itianda, wbieh is to prevent a recurrence of thoae periods of difficulty when the assistance of the landlord is necessary, if the people are allowed to continue there in the sana nanber as they are now in T — Certainly not. 3977. Do you find that marriages are leas prevalent among the people when (bay get very poor ? — During the war they all married very early, in order to have tba number of children requisite to exempt them from the militia ; boys of 16 and 17 married, which is the cause of the great inerease in the population. 1978. Doyuuthink since the peace ithaa become so pcevalent ?— I think ithasnot. 9979. Do you think the habits of the people have become deteriorated as their nuoiMrs have increased f — No, they are a very good class of people, very well behaved in general, perfectly so. 9980. Have they no employment, the greater part of them? — One half; at all avepts one-third have not employment. II981. Can you give any account of any of tba other Islands? — The Island of CajjJ can. Tne Island of Coll contains about 15,000 English acres; the soil Mf^nandy, »nd a vA'y considerable portion of rock and moss ; the land more adapted for pasturage than cropping ; the population about i ,300, possessed by the ^ants as follows : six tenants who pay rents from 43/. io«. to 950/. averaging 100/. 9«. id. each; 71 crofters, who pay rents from 5/. to 17/. io«., averaging g'L lit. gd. i 94 crofters, who pay rents from 3/. 103/., averaging 504. ; and about sixty families who have no lands at all. About 80 tons of kelp annually manu- factured on the island, principally belonging to the tenants thenuelves. 99S3. Do the same circumstances of difficulty attend the population of Coll u the islands of Tiree and Uist ? — Certainly not, because the proprietor of Coll, having lived very much upon the island, has kept down the 'population, a believe at one time, about 40 years ago, that the population of Coll and Tiree were very nearly the same. 9(Mk {Has the population of Coll materially diminished by emigration ?' — Not 998^ Why has the population of Coll not increased in proportion toothir islands ? — The proprietor has lived upon the island, and saw tne difficulties from an increasing population, and therefore used every means in his power to keep the population down. The means he used were, that he would not allow a young man, a son of one of the crofters, to be married without his consent ; he said. If yoa marry without my consent, you must leave the island. 9985. Then they were not Roman Catholics ? — No, they are all Protestanta in Coll. 9986. Understanding what the object of this Committee i«, have you anr fbrtber observations to make, or any further information to give, that you thkKWilf ba conducive to the object they have in view? — If Government think iflMiiliy-of being at any expense in sending out emigrants, I think it can be done a great deal cheaper than it has hitherto been done to government If the government was to' allow the proprietors to fix npon what emigranta should go mm their diffinrent estates, and allow them to make the contracts for sending the people cut, I am qaite convinced they could do it a great deal cheaper than it baa been done by government; and I shall give you a Statement of the expenses of which I bava made a calculation. According to the present rate of freight to Cape Breton, or any of these places. New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, a ship could be freighted for 95 «. per ton ; at present two tons are allowed for every adult passanser, and die crew are included ; but if government, for so abort a voyage, would ulow tba crew not to be included, but let them go extra, it would be a very consideraUn saving of expense ; and for so short a voyage, the captains of ships in that trade, who nave gone with emigrants, and widi whom I have conversed, say it would not be the least inconvenience. There is also die additional expense of a surgeon for ao short a voyaga, which ia a very great additional expense. Then there are the Eroaisions according to die Act of Parliament, a certain quantity of beef; now y substituting what the Rum people were allowed by government, oatmc«l in- atead of bieef, tha expanse would be graady reduced, and tbey are not accustomed 550. O 9 to id A^ il«7. ..tMf, m I a«pipiPiJa>iliig>-Yes. There is anouer thing which I beg leave to mention, and that is, that if they were sent out earlier in the season, so as to arrive at Cape Breton early in June, they would be in very good time to raisf ^ crop of potatoes that year, and then there would be no expense of feeding them fortne first twelve months, because with the three months provision they would carry out, and what they would save from that and the crop of potatoes they would raise the same year, there would be no occasion to lay out any money in supporting them for the first year. 3988. Do they cany their seed potatoes with them? — They have carried potatoes with them, but they don't carry well ; they don't keep. 2989. Well, then, how do they eet their seed ? — ^They bad a number of friends there, who went from Rum and C^>11 ; they found all their acquaintances tfiere ; a great number had gone before at their own expense. 3990. Generally speaking, do you think that doing away with all regulatim* whatever, or a material modification of the present regulations, would be pre- ferable ? — I think it would not be proper to do away with all regulations, certMil|^ not ; but I would modify them very much. * • 2991 . State what modification you would recommend ; in addition to wftat you have already stated, are there any other modifications that your experience will enable you to offer? — Instead of provisions for twelve weeks, I do not think it is nF!cessary to have provisions for more than eivht, if you barely wish to land them there ; but I see no objection to twelve weeks provisions, when they get the provisipns that rrjmain for themselves, on landing. 3993. Taking an over quantity of provisions, on the principle you state, might suit very well to Upper Canada, but it would not do to emigrate those going a, greater distance than Upper Canada, because they could not carry them with them? — No. 3993. Have yon had any experience of Canada? — No, I have not. 3994. When you state that ships might be freighted to carry emigradtaM^t at. 35^. per ton, do not you consider that rather a high freight, as vessels going to those parts generally go without any cargo? — I have made several applications to captains of vessels lately to know at what rate they would do it, and this was about the average rate, 35 «. ; but this includes the expense of fitting up the sleep- ing births and the cooking apparatus, &c. for the voyage; ant*, then there is an>^ other expense, you would require a ship-broker to charter the vessels, superintend/ the outfit, and lay in the provisions; this would increase the coct 5 *. 4 ' ■ l,.^4^riKt,1s,,'f • ,. .1 - ■ ■'if. KM* 4" 4> r^-v:.' ON EMIOftATtOK VkoM T^i iJ^WiSb kiNODoM: tBti. i^ Miteyrii, ir dk Apriiii, 1827. '"' ' '. '"if w" ~ LORD VISCOUNT 8ANDON, ''^^^i ^^ ■', •': >i •' -: ' ' it ,,,1, *W TH* CHAIK. -fe,-y j»-vf a JK-U ;'V('>T' >?»' 1 ■ . ■ ■ .. . 'rs%i i'l wtf i5^>.nf|; *< ■ DoviW JoAn Wilmn, Esq. agaio oitlled in ; and ftirther fiiamuiedi 3001. HAVE yoQ any tl^iug to add to the evidence jroU gttVe 6il' i toMir btf^a- •idll?— Ihave. jbo^. Be 80 good M to stalie it? — I kno# a itiy Itsfgb inlet ot^tHii tkat inliitae- diately bounds my property, the estate of the Earl 6f Liihtildt in the couhtv of Clkre, and. which I know to have, I am pOdtiVe ari to tlffeef, but I rdthei' think fbiii', intermediate landlords. 3003. Do you menu between the principal and the oCcupiCrf— ^^Me^n tA^ ftfirtcipa}' And the' lowest occupant. I hav6 known thosti people, iA th^' course of a fortnight, distrained by three dr four different p^rtons : their cattle piit iiito thi^ poani, by one person — given out by the pound -keeper, on their oath that tneV should be forthcoming on the day of sale — seized afterwards by oiie of the 6ther landlords ; and, wbei^omd of them have been running away #ith their tfocks ati J corn, to avoid a seizure by one person, they biive been intercepted by another' who had' also a claim, and brought back. 3004. The occupying tenant is liable to' distress to all those abovcf bin^, is he ttot? — From every one that is above him. The state of distress of those pe<^li^ I have alluded to, and thr anxiety of their minds, was exceedingly great;- the^ were constantly coming to .■^■j for advice, as I happen to reside near thert. 3005. Is this very general in the part of the couhty ^hlch' vou describe?^ I uank that this is the worst case, but there aito several others which have come' near it 3006; Has this occurred since the passing of the Act giving «i remedy to the tenant when distrained by the landlord above him ? — Previous to that Act! 3007. Has that law afforded much redress in those cases? — Not as yet ; btit* I thinklit is likely to do so. 3008. What fund, if any, do you think could be raised for the purpose of aiding emigration in Ireland ? — I nad it in contemplation upon my own pft>perty, to esta- blish a fund by means of my contributing three-pence in the pound upon all sums that I received from my tenants, the tenants to contribute the like sum of three-pencei in the pound for each pound they paid me for rent; this I intended should be at my disposal, and that of a certain number of the tenants who should be chosen by the- remainder. I intended it as a provision only for the aged and infirm. 3009. Also for the purpose of emigration ? — It was since I Wfts examined before this Committee that I thought the regulations, upon the principle Ibavestiggestetf,'' might be applied to assisting emigration. 3010. What direct interest would the tenants have in contributing to the pur-' poses of emigration? — I think it-WV>uld materiaUy brtiefit theb, for this retison, tiiat it would leave larger divisions of the land. The fund would be ajirbviaiebf^ for many of them in their old age; if they were to contribute toi^ards raising' af^ sum* it would mak« them more cautious in sub-letting their land, and allowingt' others to come in to partake of the benefit ,3Pli. Might they not lodi forward to better wages for labour, if part of the population were removed ? — Certainly they would look for better Wages. 3013. Is the subsistence of many of those small tenants at all provided for hf the wages which they receive for labour, or nearly so ? — ^The labour-wagefe are • extremely small indeed. 3013. Do they depend for their subsistence in aiiy great degree upon thewAgei'' they receive for labour ? — Many of them do. 3014. Have you found matiy tenants willing to enter into the arrangehieiU you have mentioned? — It has not yet been proposed to them : I had intended' to' hate'' proposed to them something in the nature of a friendly society, it wbS in cottse- qoence of hearing that the poor laws were to be idtroduced into Ireland, that led me to think of it; I have ahrays thought the syetem of pottr latWS'wViAHF nM" answer in Ireland. 5.50. O03 30 1, V Would ,>lHilSJ,V.'l»f...«>,M.' David J. mboH, ^ / 1 1 April, 1897. 394 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE V0tidJ.WiUom, \ / 11 April, 1N7. , I ■ r W 3015. Would you recommend this plan to be embodied in.8n Act, and the rate introduced? — If any rate were introduced, I would only recommend it in relation to the landlords, not to the tenants. 301b. Is not the demand of land such in Ireland, that whatever burden is im- posed by law upon the landholder, that it is invariably transferred to the occupier? — I am afraid that is the case ; at the same time I am of opinion, that any rate imposed should be put upon the landlord, then the tenant takes the land knowing what he has to pay ; whereas if it is put on in the nature of an assessment upon the tenant, he never takes it into consideration in the same manner as if he knew the entire sum he was to pay on taking a farm. Perhaps I miu[ht state the number of demands I have heard made upon a tenant in the course of three weeks prieviou* to last Christmas. I am a Catholic, and attending my chapel, I heard one day an advertisement read from the altar, stating that the vicar would require his tithe 01^ a certain day ; I have hea«d anodier, stating that the rector would attend on a certain day to receive his tithe ; I have heard another, calling upon the parishioners to be readv with the country charges on another day ; and another, to be readv with the church rates ; I have heard another, stating that the priest would ca(l over the names of all those persons who had not contributed towards the repaira of the chapel (then rooBng) and disgrace them if they did not pay within a cert&iii day ; and I have heard the priest, a few days before Christmas, say, that he should expect they would be ready to give him his pittance on Christmas-day. 3017. Within what period has this taken place ? — Within a month of Christmail.' 3018. What are the country charges? — ^The grand jury rates. 3019. If no such rates had existed, are you of opinion that persons, distributed throughout Ireland in the small possessions which many of them occupy, woul^ be still able to bear any extra burdens whatever, beyond obtaining a subsistence 09 the land which is allotted to them ? — ^That is a puzzling question ; but I should answer it in this way, that I do conceive, though I should be unwilling to impose any additional rate upon them, that if there was a rate put on for the purpose of emigrating, that they would derive a great benefit in return. 3020. Have you any idea how much all the charges to which you alluded, amount to per acre upon the land ? — I know that one Grand Jury levy (that wa« the summer levy) came to twelve pence or thirteen pence per acre; that, is the Grand Junr cess. .1 „^ 3021. That is a half-yearly assessment? — Yes. ..^jg 3022. Upon the actual acre? — No, according to the old survey. , ' 3023. Are the two levies generally equal ? — I believe the spring is generaifiy the heaviest. 3024. You think the spring rate would be something more than thirteen pence? — I am not aware whether it was so, but it generally is something more than ths ' summer. viB 3025. Have you commuted the tithes generally? — ^We have in the three parishes in which I have property. 3026. Were the tithes commuted in the parish you have described? — They now are. ' 3027. What is the acreable assessment? — ^The Commissioners in our parish adhered to the law with respect to the classing the number of the acres and the qualities of the land, but they did what, in my mind, was far the fairest way, they put a rent upon the whole, after making a computation of it ; and it amounts now, I think to tenpence halfpenny or tenpence three farthings in the ponnd. 3028. How much is it in the acre? — I cannot say, because some of the land is not worth more than two shillings and sixpence an acre, and other parts are worth forty shillings. .'3029. Is not the levy made by the acre? — In this instance it is not. 3030. What did they value the land at generally in those parishes? — A great > pfurt of it is mountainous district, so that it varies very much ; but thirty shillings per acre for arable land would be, I think, a fair average. 3031. The large acre? — The Irish acre; as far as I am a judge, the Tithe Act has a wonderful efiect upon the situation of the country. 3032. Do you mean improvement? — Decidedlv. ^033. What is the church-rate per acre? — ^There has been a chapel of ease built in our parish, wbjch ia « small one ; the rate vaiies from twopence halfpenny to threepence halfpenny, •*/'■■" v-^/"?t £;a»*'.-: • 3034. Do immi ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 395 ' 3<*34- I)o 7°" tl>>D^ * provision may be made in particuJar districts for the aged Mid infirm poor ? — I do. 3035. Do you not consider, from the general habits of thepeople, that they ' kiTord subsistence to the poor to the utmost of their ability ? — There are not any people in tl world that have greater affection for their parents or for their children than tV 1 I people ; but I Know instances where the aged have been a great burden i .- 3 children, in consequence of the state of poverty in which those children v,vr^ placed. 3036. Do you not think that the best possible means of providing for the aged and infirm, taking that disposition into account, is to provide employment for those who are able ? — No doubt 3037. Do you not consider that any legal provision for the aged and the infirm, in the nature of rates, would be likely to lead to great abuse in tne expenditure ? — I would confine any provision that was to be made for the aged and infirm to each particular property ; I would not have it a parochial rate ; I would avoid as much as possible making it general ; I would leave it to the proprietor of the land to provide a fund for the aged and infirm upon his property. 3038. Do you mean a compulsory fund ? — I would rather have it a voluntary one ; and I do think, if such a plan were to be struck out, it might be attended with good effect ; but as to having it parochial, then I should decidedly object to it. 3039. Do you not consider that the Grand Jury levies, as far as they are expended upon public works in the country, constitute a fund for the employment of the poorer class ? — By no means. 3040. You mean to say they are subject to great abuse? — The grossest. 3041. Do you not consider that the correction of the Grand Jury system, and a more due application of thoae funds to their proposed purposes, would afford very extended employment to the people? — Not a doubt of it; the present system is fhtught with the worst consequences. 3042. Do you consider that if the entire of the funds proposed to be applied to public works were honestly applied to those purposes, that it would almost relieve the country from the surplusage of labour unemployed ? — No, certainly not, I do not think they would ; they would go a great way, but would not be sufficient ; th« population is increasing in such a wonderful degree, that they would not. 3043. Have yon the means of estimating the proportion which the Grand Jury levy Mars to the landed income of the country? — 1 have not given it con- sideration. 3044. Do you know what the amount of the Grand Jury levy is for the coun^ of Clare, with which you are particularly acquainted ? — It varies, I believe, from 13,000/. to 1 7,000/. a year, but I cannot speak positively to that. 3045. Were you present at the last assizes for the county ? — I was there only for a day or two ; I went to apply to get leave to attend a Committee of this House. 3046. Do you know the amount for which leave wat asked to obtain a present- ment at these assizes ? — I do not know. 3047. Do not the occupants consider the Grrand Jury levy a very severe bur- den ? — A very severe one. • 3048. Is it not the habit to apply Gr&nd Jury expenditure now to a great many and additional purposes never contemplated by the original laws upon that sub- ject ? — I believe so ; the public institutions in the county now swallow vp a great part of the assessment. 3049. Have any other remedies occurred to you, besides that of emigration, by which the redundant population in Ireland may be diminished or its increase pre- vented ? — Since my last examination it has struck me, that a voluntary contnbu- tion from tenants as well as landlords amounting to a small sum in the pound, aa I have already stated, would tend in a great measure to relieve the aged poor, and it would also have the effect of preventing those persons from brmging in other persons upon the land, as the greater the number who come in upon the land, in the same ratio the relief to be afforded to each individual would diminish if the fund was found to be larger than vras necessary to support the aged and infirm, I think the surplus might fairly be applied to assist the emigration of any^ families upon the estate who might wish to emigrate ; I do think that the fairMt fund that could be raised in addition to that, would be a t. 3058. For the house ? — No, for the house and the cabbage-garaen. ''' 305^. Do you not conceive that there are a great number of the small land- holders who would be able to contribute a great part of the expense ? — ^A great part of the landholders would be able to contribute something. '3060. Has there been any actual emigration going on in your county? — Some nersons have gone out to America, from whom very favourable aoQoi^its are received. 3061. Are they in the habit of converting all their property into money, befbra t^ey go ? — Yes, they are. 3062. Are they able to produce a sum, over and above their passage, for the purchase of land, when they get there? — No, I have not heard that. 3063. Do they go out as mere labourers ? — Some of them do, and some of them as artificers. 3064. Is it from that class that favourable accounts have been sent ? — Favour? abl^ accounts have been received from two men who went out as labourers, and the other as millwright and carpenter. 3065. That is only from those who have had small means ? — Certainly. ' 3066. Can you inform the Committee, whether, in your opinion, there is » Seat anxiety to emigrate among those who remain ? — I uiqk there is< I certainly ink it would be productive of very good effect ; it is not so much the benefit that would be derived from it a^ present, as the benefit that would b^ derived from it hereafter. I have further to observe, that I consider that if the system of electiie franchise, were changed, and men allowed to vote according to the rate of tttfie which they paid iftider the Composition Act, coupled vrith their holding a certain quantity of land, that it would materially tend to check the subdivision of small farms, and of course to check the population. 3067. What do you mean by a holding of land ; to what extent^ — To an extent' which would enable a man to pay a certain rate of tithe under the Composition! Act, on a scale which might be fixed, and under which he might be entitled to. vote. 3068. Are you of opinion that the landlords of Ireland, as a body, woidd olgect to a tax on land for the purpose of raising an emigration fund, to be. placed under the direction of government, provided other measures were simultaneously tending to check population, such as an alteration of the forty shilling franchise and Uie system of sub-letting and jointrt^w^cy ?---Geoi9ral|y spc^hing, I think the landr. lord* would object' to any adctitional tax. ..vx « » 3069. Are '%' benefit II April, l8t7. QN EMIGRATION FROM TUB UNITED KINGDOM: 1817. 397 3069. Are you of opinion, that the Irish gentry have had an opportunity of DmidJ.Wimn, giving their attention to the subject of the redundant population of Ireland and ^* Its removal, ao as to consider the effects upon their interests ?— I am clearly satisfied ^ they have not, and I can speak of my own case. I had certainly eiven the state of tbe poor in Ireland a great deal of consideration, but I never, until I came before this Committee, gave the subject of emigration that consideration which I have done since ; not one I should think in a hundred have thought upon the subject. 3070. Are you not satisfied therefore, that the publication of the evidence taken .hefore this Committee, will naturally draw their attention to the subject, to see how dieir pecuniary interests are affected ; and do you not think that their answer must be qualified according to the consideration given by them to the subject ? — No doubt, the more they consider the subject the more competent they will be to form an opinion upon it ; for myself, I view it in a much more favourable light than I did the last time I gave evidence before the Committee. * 1 Mr. James Wett, called in ; and Examined. 307 1 . WHERE do you come from ? — From the county of Westmeath. fu73. Are you generally acquainted with the state of the county of Westmeath ? have lived in it all my life, and have a good deal of intercourse with it. 3073. What are you? — A land agent 3074. Is there a great deal of poverty among the peasantry in that part of the counfatT, with which you are acquainted? — Indeed there is a great deal, but it is better inhabited than many other counties. 3075. Are not some of the labouring classes employed by the gentry of the county during the year, and others only casually employed ? — They are. 3076. Is were not a material difference between those two classes? — Yes, because one class is employed the whole year round, and the others only part of the year. 3077. Can you at all state what are the proportions between those two classes, in the county of Clare? — ^There are more persons employed throughout the whole of the year, than not employed. 3078. Have the goodnes to take a special instance of those not employed, and describe the circumstances under which they are placed ? — ^They are in a poor pitiable condition ; their cabins very bad ; and for half the year they cannot obtain employment, though verv willing to work, if they can get it, and at almost any thing you chuse to give them. . 3079. There is no demand for the work of those persons? — ^There is not. 3080. Do you not conceive, that the cause of there beine no demand for their work is, that the population is so excessive as to supply all £e work that is really wanted, and to have a considerable redundancy ? — ^It is the fact ; there is an over- grown population. 3081. Do you not consider, that the removal (if ii could be effected satisfac- torily,) of part of that population would materially benefit the condition of those left behind ? — I have no doubt of it in the world. 3083. Do you think that the interests of proprietors, in the county of West- meath, are not affected by the circumstance of this excessive population? — Indeed I do think it is, and I believe they feel it to he so. 3083. Could you describe to the Committee the prejudicial effect, which in your opinion accrues to the interest of individual proprietors, in consequence of the presence of this particular class of redundant population on their estates? — I believe one of the greatest evils accompanying it, is the letting of small farms for t)ie purpose of making freeholders, at a mere trifling rent, of very had ground, - often part of a bog. . 3084. Do you think that the injury being more or less, which accrues to indi- vidual proprietors from the presence, and from the increase of this redundant population, is such as to make it their interest to consider the question of con- tributing for the purpose of removing such poor ? — ^I do think it would be well worth,tneir serious consideration, and for this reason, because I know a gentle- man, nfhose property I am connected with, has given many of his tenaQts, not merely of those holding of small quantities of ground, but some having large quantity of ground, all their property to enable them to carry themselves away, which in sopie instances, to my knowledge, has amounted to more than a hundred pounds. 5.50. P P 30^5- For Mr. JaiM* Wttt. \ i 998 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. /mw« Wat. • I April, 1M7. It " 15 3085. For what number of persona ?— For one family. Mr. Taite'i father bu done it. 3086. You have made a distinction between targe and imall holders of cround ; what do you mean by that distinction ? — Some of them may hold from thirty to forty acres of ground, and others not more than two acres. 3087. The Committee, in the questions they are asking vou, are directing their attention to the lowest class ? — Some of those people who have lived with myself, my cottiers' sons, who perhaps have lived with me the whole year round, some of their children have gone off to America, and there have been favourable accounts from some of them, and from others, unfavourable accounts ; they are merely labourers there, notning else. 3088. When you say, to America, do you mean the United States, or the co- lonies? — ^To both. 3089. If you were consulted as a land agent, as to the advantage of removing from the property of an individual land proprietor, fifty families of the lowest class of persons, inhabiting the most wretched sort of cabin, and for whose labour there is but little or no demand the greater part of the year ; would you think yourself justified in recommending to a proprietor, whose property was so circunistanoed, to advance them 'iol. per family, supposing a family to consist of a man, a woman, and three children? — I would not say I should recommend him to pay the sum of 20/.; but, as a measure, I would recommend it. 3090. Your hesitation as to the sum, would arise from not having had an op- portunihr of giving due consideration to the subject, perhaps, more than any thing else ? — I think there are many landlords who could not afford it ; most of them have their rents very badly paid. 3091. Would not your advice be regulated by ascertaining the benefit which would accrue to the proprietor, from letting his land to a different class of tenants ? — I have no hesitation in saying that I would recommend to a landlord, under such circumstances, to assist emigration ; a good deal of that would depend upon this, whether his property was let in large parcels or small parcels ; if in the former, it would not require so much emigration as where it was let in small portions. 3092. The Committee are supposing a case where the tenants are of the lowest class, and where the landlord is m immediate relation to them, without the inter- vention of any middleman ? — I think it would benefit the middleman ; btit it is impossible that the poor man, upon five or six acres of ground, with five or six in family, can maintain them, and pay his rent. ^ 3093. Do you not think that the rent of that landlord would be increased under another system of letting ? — I do not know that it would be increased nominally, but it would in the receipt of the money actually received as rent. 3094. Would not your recommendation to a landlord under those circumstances, as to the sum he should subscribe, depend upon the increase which would be show:n to be the result.^ — Certainly. 3095. From the explanations you have given, do Tou mean to attribute the number of persons in Westmeath, beyond the means of employment, to the system of letting very small farms ? — The part of the county where I live was formerly inhabited by gentlemen of large fortune ; that number, however, has diminished, and they have brought a large number of labourer! Into it, who have not employ- ment at present. 3096. Is a great part of the 'county^f Westmeath occupied by what you may c41 small tenents I — Not so much so as some odier counties, certainly not.' 3097. , Has the distress, which ifseems ha« occmrred in the county of West-; raeatb, arisen more from die non-residence of the gentlemen than from any other' cause ? — ^Yes, I do think so, and I believe it is the case all over Ireland. 3098. What sum, in your opinion, could be raised by a large family by the siale of all they possess ?— Very little ; perhaps a pound or two pounds would be tbe utmost of it. 3099. If thev were to sell all they possess with a view to emigration, to how ifinch do you think it would amount? — To a very small sum; if they have any thing to sell, they always do it. There are many families who have gone from the part of the country where I live. 3400. What class of the people is it thftt have emigrated ?— Farmers who have ' not conducted themselves very well, who have been obliged to go off in cOnse- (^ueoce of arrears of rent ; and some of the young fellows in the country have ", '. " ' ' fifOBe •mm kWert-; ny other' 'by the tovlA be to how five any bne from |ho have ' c6n8e- |try have ■gone ON EMIOHATIOIf FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 18*7. 399 S>nc off, and otben of a different description ; dMjr have coUeeted money front eir friends sometimes, which has enabled them to go out. . 3101. Do you (hiuk that many families would fa« enabled in your part of the ^ country, by the assistance of their friends, to g^ out? — I know that their friends often cfo assist them. 3103. Do you think if facilities were afforded for emigration, that large numbera would go from Ireland ? — I do. 3103. If the means of transport were afibrded, wOuld the lower classes, in your opinion, be able to raise from their friends a sufficient sum to auist them when tke^ arrived at the other side of the water? — I have no doubt they would, for I believe all that would be necessary would be a sufficient sum of money to bay themselves provisions, such as bacon, meal, &e. for their pMsage. 3104. Suppose the case of a hundred families, each familv consisting of a man, woman and tbree children, who are informed that they will have truasport to the colonies ; do you imagine that there are a hundred families in the county of West- meath who could obtain from their friends in money, a sufficient sum to provision them for a year aftsr they got there? — I think they could only obtain sumcient to go over. 3105. How much money, supposing transport to be found them, do you con- ceive they would have, when they got there ? — ^The sum of money it would take for their tratisport, of course they would have when they got there ; I have under- stood about 4/. a head was the sum ; from 3/. 154. to 4/. 3106. Taking the three children as one adult, a family of the number described would require 1 3/. to take them, do you think they could raise that sum ? — I think it would be a sum too large for them to raise, but I think they would raise six or seven pounds ; I do not believe they pay above half price for the children. 3107. You mean for freight and food ? — Yes. ' , 3108. Suppose the expense of freight would be 12/., do you think that a hun- dred families from the county of Westmeath, if removed from that county, would obtain from their friends the sum of 12/. each ? — I do think there are a hundred families that could bring that sum, taking i'ae whole county. 3109. The Committee are speaking of families that are in a state of perfect destitution ? — No, not of that very low description ; of that class, very few have emigrated. 3110. The Committee do not mean those who have a small capital in the county, but of that particular class who are described to be in a state of destitution ?-rlf the other families went, it would make room for the others, so that they would be able to get employment. 31 n. Of that particular class of families to which you have alluded, as being able to get 1 a /.; are those families in which the men are constantly employed in labour ? — Yes, and if they were removed, it would make room for the otners. 3112. Do you conceive that a small occupier, turned out from his farm by the expiration of his lease, is not immediately involved in distress ? — Yes, in most cases. 3113. And he might have some little available property at the moment? — Certainly, and there are a great number irk that state. 31 14. Is it your opinion, that in the ease of this particular class of tenants holding small quantities- of land, who miglub be ejegted at the terminatioti of leases, and who at the same time might cdlect^ither from the produce of their own property, or the contribution of friends, a sum perhaps equal to 12/. per family, if, those were removed, and the lands from "^hich they were taken were let upon an improved principle involving the circumstance of laroer farms, that the consch quence wc^ula be, that the lowest class to which you nave alluded, as being in a wretched state of destitution, would immediately as labourers, under a new and a better system, have a chance of improving their condition ? — Yes, decidedly. 3115. You are of opinion that the class of the community which it would be most advisable to assist in emigraiionj is that class who, being turned out under such given circumstances, have not capital enough to embark in any large' specu- lation as farmers, and consequently reduced to I nil I II April, 1817. Soo MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE but if that very clam were to get employ, I do not think it would be half or t quarter so bad aa it is. 3117. You attribute the habitual irregularity of the lowest class to the want of employment? — Entirely. 3118. You have stated that some landlords have thought it right, and to their interest, to get rid of a redundant population off their estate at a sacrifice of rent T — I have known such instances. 3119. In those instances which you know, can you say how many families have been got rid of, and what the amount of the rent was ? — In some instances it was very large, hundreds of pounds, but I cannot state it particularly ; I have known aoo /. or 300 /. due from one man, and to be forgiven eveiv thing. 3130. How many families do you think there might be f — ^Three or four from off Mr. Tuite's estate. 3131. And at what sacrifice ? — At the sacrifice of 300 /. or 400 /. ; perhaps, if he sold every thing they possessed, he might have got one hundred pounds. J. 5. Vundtltur, E«|. \ -I John Scott Vandeleur, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 3123. YOU are a resident of the county of Clare ? — Yes. 3133. Do you attend as a magistrate in that county ? — Yes. 3134. Have you had an opportunity of hearing the observations made by the last witness, with respect to the probable effect upon the lowest classes of Irish labourers, that might be affected by the removal of the lower class of small farmers by ejectment, or otherwise? — I have heard them. 3 1 35. Would the abstraction of a proportion of that class lead to the improvement of the lowest class of labourers ? — I am decidedly of that opinion. 3 1 26. Have you heard of any instances of that effect being produced by their removal ? — I have heard of several families who have left my neighbourhood com- pletely destitute, and since they have left I have heard of their having improved their condition. 3137. But what effect had their removal upon the remaining part of the popu- lation ? — I cannot say, it has been upon so trifling a scale hitherto. 3138. Speaking generally, do you think it would be to the interest of the land- lords of Ireland, to contribute towards the removal of that class of under-tenants, who may be on their proper^ on the determination of a lease? — I think it would be to their interest to induce those persons to emigrate, but I doubt very much whether it would be to their interest to contribute any thing towards it, because they can get rid of them now by law. 3139. But if this were to be a general practice, do you not think that the state of the county at large would be prejitcSiced by ia numerous class of diose persona so ejected wandering over the county ? — Decidedly, and that has been a very great cause of the disturbances in the south of Ireland. 3130. Although they have the legal power of ejecting those parties, do you not imaffine that the reaction might be very prejudicial to the pecuniary interests of the landowners, if the country were to be thrown into a state of confusion ?-— Undoubtedly, I should conceive so. 3131. If a system were to be adopted, under which the majority of proprietors who have the opportunity might act, of improving their property by the ejectment of such a class of tenants, do you not consider it might be to the pecuniary interest of proprietors, to consider how far they would contribute towards emigration ; if such a system of emigration were likely to be adopted for the removal of those parties, under circumstances that would be satisfactory to the future interests of those parties ? — I do, provided emigration were applied solely to those persons whom the landowners would wish to get rid of; but I conceive that if emigration were carried on to a greater extent, that many individuals would go whom it would be better to have left at home in the country. '3133. Yon will be good enough to understand, that all the questions put to you have reference to a regulated emigration, by which proper persons are to be selected ? — I do think that such a system, if property applied, would be <^ advan- tage to the population. I should be glad, for one, to contribute, if I could Mt rid of the lower class of m^ tenantry, and not to turn them out into the worid, as I should otherwise b% obliged to do now, if I got rid of them. 3133-- Yon understand, that in such a case, no individual would be selected for Emigration who was not in a good state of health and of a certain age, because he *twi£i -■ would BB half or » e want of ] to their if rent? — lUiet have ces it was ,ve known ir from off liaps, if he ade by the BB of Irish all farmers iprovement «d by their rhood com- g improved f the popu- if the land- er-tenants, ik it would very much because lat the state ose persons very great do you not interests of infusion?—- >roprietbtii ejectment ary interest potion; if ral of those interests of ose persons emig;ration 9m it would put to you are to be tS advan- luld getrid world, as I selected for because he would ON EMIQRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1817. soi would not do justice to himself as a settler ; would that consideration affect your views with respect to your interests? — No; but I conceive if their children could be sent out, it would be to the advantage of the proprietors, and leave the idlers to linger out at home as they could ; but while the child is brought up in sloth of every kind by its parents, I think it would, when it grew up, be as bad as its parents were before. 3134. You will understand, that every question of this Committee is put with reference to the supposed proportion of a man, woman, and three children to a &milv ; taking them in that proportion, notwithstanding the necessity of Kelecting able-bodied men, do you still think that the proprietors would not be materially interested in contributing to emigration ? — Decidedly. 3135. In using the word able-bodied, it is applied mainly to the father of the family, who must be the settler placed upon the land, under the supposition of his going as an emigrant ; and it would be therefore impossible to accept of any emigrant under any national system of emigration, who was not of an age, and in a state of health that would enable him to prosper, would that meet your views? —I think so. 3136. Are there many smell farms in the county of Clare ? — A great many. 3137. Has the class of persons called small tenants, been for many years in a state of great distress ? — I believe there are the same gradations of distress in the county of Clare as in other counties. 3138. But during many years, when the potatoe crop has failed, has it not created great distress among that class ? — Yes. 3139. In those periods the landlord has not been in the habit of receiving; much rent from those penons r — It certainly has an effect upon the payment of rents, for when they are obliged to lay out a great deal of the rent to buy provisions (for they cannot, starve) under such circumstances of course they cannot so well pay their rent to the landlord. 3140. Are you not of opinion, that you would be better off if the number of small tenants were very much reduced in your county ? — Decidedly. 3141. Is it not the common practice of landlords to forgive considerable arrears of rent in order to induce the tenants to go away, and give up their farms ? — It is only giving a nominal sum ; it is only remitting debts from paupers who could not pay them : perhaps they may have a miserable cow, or something of that descrip- tion, and the landlord may say, I will let you go with all your famiture, and all the rent with you ; but that is giving up a very small sum of real money indeed. 3143. What do you consider to be the smallest lot of land which it would be to your advantage to let? — From 20 to 25 acres. 3143. Have you at the present period, or have other gentlemen in your neigh- bourhood at this time, many farms of a smaller description r — There are many gentlemen in the neighbourhood who have, but they are doing all in their power to consolidate them ; they are getting rid of the small ones, and making- large ones as fast as they can, consistently with the principles of humanity. 3144. Are you of opinion, that the parties who might be removed upon this principle of ejectment, would be disposed to a- They who are already barefy able to sustain their families, and are almost starved, of course remain at home, because they have not the means of removing ; but immense numbers who find that circumstances are rapidly hurrying them into that state, are now leaving this neighbourhood I was told last week, that no fewer than fifty families had left Blackburn in the preceding week, for the United States of America. The Com- mittee will observe, that thes^ are not paupers, but industrious families, who fly 55(1. P p 3 from /. 5. Famhinr, 11 April, ils7> i 5i l)i 1 1 A^il, 1817. 309 MINUTES OF E\ DBNCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE from the pBupcriMi which itarM them in the fice. ConitqiMntly, ■Itboucb the abitraction 01 any given number of operatives, aa it muit diminish the namMr of hands that demand employment, docs good, by tending to bring the demand and ■upply nearer to a level ; it docs not in the least diminish the prescut frightftil hurden of our poor'tt rates. The emigrants now go to the United States, becauM they there hope for employment as weavers. It would require some strong inducement to make them turn their thoughts to agriculture ; and unless a sufficient motive to make them prefer settling in our own colonies is put before them by our government, the stream of emigration will run on (and must increase prodigiously) tn the same channel. 1 last week saw a letter from a person in Philadelphia, who left Blackburn last year, stilting that for weaving a striped calico, he could cam from 4 { to 6 dollars per week ; in Blackburn, he would not earn much more than the same number of shillings. It is high time for His Majesty's government to take the subject of emigration into consideration, systematically, and as a part of the country's policy to be steadily pursued. Were proper channels opened, and adequate encouragement given to emigrate, the country would be repaid by the flourishing state of our colonies, and by their trade ; and the system would go so far to prevent the accumulated misery occasioned by such convulsions as we nave witnessed last year. Radicalism and disaffection would disappear gradually, if persons who cannot get an honest livelihood b^ their industry at home, had a certain prospect of independence and prosperity in our colonies. It cannot happen otherwise than that such persons continuallv (every 5 or 7 years perhaps) thrown into involuntary idleness, half fed, and half clothed, will lay the blam* on their rulers, and become discontented and seditious. I have thought much end anxiously on this subject, during the last half year, and I am convinced that a mere temporary measure, one which has for its sole object the present state of the operatives in this particular emergency, will do no sensible good. The only wise measure would be to adopt the measure of emigration, systematically and constantly, as a state measure ; and I am persuaded that His Majesty's government would never repent its adoption. It was the policy of the ancient world, and doubtless for good reasons. There can be no question that Athens found great benefit from drafting off its redundant and seditious population to Sicily, and other places. At present our emigrants all flock to America, where thev enrich a foreign state by their labour and mechanical skill, and imbibe there the opinions and feelings of the state, where they are adopted as citizens ; they become " Ame- ricanis ipsis Americaniore," nor do they retain much, if any, regard for that native country, which they quitted in distress and discontent. Thus does England's indifference to emigration operate mischievously to her interests, by swelling the number of her commercial enemies, and enabling them to establish a successful competition with her manufactures. In this district, much will depend upon the place or places fixed upon for settlers, and upon the inducements held out. No assistance from the parishes can possibly be looked for ; it is totally out of the question, and therefore the measure had better not be proposed at all, as its abso- lute failure is a positive certainty. Canada is not likely to be popular on account of its climate, and the incumbrances of the country, before it can be cleared for agriculture. New South Wales would be a much more tempting region ; but perhaps the great expense of the voyage would deter government from proposing it. I have given vou my opinions rather at large, but the Committee will, I trust, excuse the unusual length of my communication. The sentiments I have expressed, have not been hastily or lightly adopted ; and I consider this subject one of vast importance. I feel extremely anxious for the decision which His Majesty's government may come to, and heartily hope it will be one that shall produce a lasting and constant benefit to the country. I will write again as soon as I Can give any satisfactory information on the points mentioned in your letter. I have the honour to be very respectfully, Your obedient humble Servant, W. H. Hyett, Esq. (signed) J.W.Whittaker." .v». ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1S37 30J Jovti, 19* dk ApHlu, 1897. R. J. WILMOT HORTON, ESQUIRE, It IN THE CHAIR. T«.. . trust, pressed, of vast Majesty's produce as I tian Frederick Carlisle, Esq. bein^f again called in, delivered in a Paper, intitaled, " Proposals for the Conveyance of labourinf^ Emigrants to the Cape of Good Hope, and the Conditions of their Engagement." — And the sanw was read, and is aa follows : — Sir, London, April i!2th, 1827. I HAVE the honour to addreu you on the suhjcct of a further Emigration to the Cape of Good Hope : Relative to this, I beg to call to your recollection that I have laid certain documents before the Colonial department, one of which was an application fro^l the principal Settlers in the district of Albany, praying that Government would assist them by sending out a number of mechanical and agri« cultural labourers, together with a proportion of women and children. The applicants, conscious of the reduced state of their circumstances, did not set forth therein any method of repaying to government the expense incurred in the transport of emigrants from this country ; they merely offer a certain rate of wages to them, when landed in the colony. Now, Sir, as the Committee seem to be averse to any system of emigration which does not contemplate the repayment of a part (if not the whole) of the sum required to carry it into operation, the present proposition will contain au estimate, according to which I would engage to transport emigrants to the Cape, and also a detailed method by which it is supposed a considerable portion of the expense might be repaid ; the latter founded, however, so/eljf on the idea that they can be hired at a lower rate than that offered by the settlers. If it be admitted that emigration (as far as regards the mother country) is ad- visable under any circumstances, I think I may venture to say it would be desirable to direct its course towards the Cape in some measure, on the score of the import- ance of that colony's geographical situation, and its climate being favourable for Europeans. But independent of this, it is the opinion of those best acquainted with the colony, that its capabilities have never yet been fully developed, nor can be until by a gradual introduction of labour, its price becomes sufficiently reduced to enable the colonist to profit bv the encouragenr.ent displayed in the favourable nature of the soil and climate, these beine well adapted for the growth of many productions with which the marketa of England and other countries might be supplied under circumstances of great advantage to the growers. Concerning the Settlers in Albany, I may add, that should His Majesty's Government eventually determine to act upon a proposition similar to the one 1 now most humbly beg to submit, it will be conferring a great and lasting benefit on a very deserving class of His Majesty's subjects, whose honest and industrious efforts to obtain an inde- pendence in a distant colony have been repeatedly met by difficulties and afflicting dispensations of providence, sometimes assuming shapes the most appalling- calamities which they have borne with patient resignation, coupled with a con- stant and dutiful observance of the ordinances of the government under which they live. In my humble opinion, it would be highly expedient (in order to prevent the confusion and inconvenience which must inevitably result from the sudden influx of too great a number of emigrants into the settlement,) that they should proceed in separate lots at two or three several times, according to the number to be sent out in the space of one year. I shall form, therefore, my proposal with a view to facilitate this object. I conceive it would be hardly safe to send out more than 600 to Albany, in tlie space of twelve months, and shall accordingly proceed upon the supposition t)tat tnat number may be agreed upon. 1 propose, therefore, to divide them into two parties, say 300 each, and despatch them in two vessels at separate periods, allowing an interval between each of about four or six months. The proportion of women and children to be about QW woman and three children to two men : t 550- P P 4 thus F^iJtrkk CtrHik, E«|. »- . ' ts April, 1817. . \ S«4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Fr*Jintk CvHdk, It April, ll«7< tLu* fftch veuci would contain lOO men, 50 women, and I jO childrtn. I tn guided in thii proportion by the eipreucd winhva of the tettler*. According to tlie proviniin* of the " PuMcn^er Act," the before-mentiontd number and deacription of people cannot bo conveyed in a veMel re|{iitering leM than 450 torn. In luch veueli, then, I will engage to provide for the tranaport of emigrant!, from either of the porta of Ix>ndon or Liverpool, at the rate of loL per head, under the following cirrumatancea : Kach vcaael ahall be provided with a competent aurgcon, together with medicine cheat and hoapital atorca ; a autiicient ■upply of water for aixteen weeka, and proviaiona for the aame lengtii of time, which will admit of an iaaue per week, na followa : To each man 7 Iba. of bread, Ulba. of flour, 9( Iba. of beef, ditto pork, li pint of peaae, ai oz. of augar, 7 oz. cocoa, 60Z. auet, 6oz. raiaina, foz. muatard, } pepper, if pint ot oatmeal, \ pint vinegar, ditto lime-juice, and i| pint rum. To every woman two-thirds of the above rate, excepting thut ahe ia not to be allowed rum, and it to be allowed tea inatead of cocoa. Children above aevcn yeara of age one-third, und under aevcn one-fourth, aubject to the aame exceptions as *he women. One of the moat important parta of the aubject ia, the condition! upon which the Emigrants are to be engaged, and the meana to b« adopted to secure their services. Here I would obaerve, that many of the coloniata, who went out in 1819-ao, took with them articled aervanta; on arrival in the aettlement, thoae servants finding that the rates of wages for which they had engaged to work (previously to tlieir departure from England) were much lower than they mi^lit obtain if their indentures were dissolved^ became very dissatisfied, endeavounufj: by every mean within their power to free themselves from the obligations \,j which they were bound. This, in most instances, they accompMshra, Tor tb* masters, harassed by the discontented and refractory spirit manifested on .'il , :c«« sions by their servants, found the only resource to be in yielding to ilitir unr<>a- sonable desires, by giving up the indentures ; and those few wli, by determined perseverance, succeeded m retaining them to the end of the term stipulated, were upon the whole, perhaps, in no way benefited by their labour. There can be no doubt that it would be extremely desirable to prevent, if possible, the recurrence of such an untoward state of things as is here related. In order, therefore, to effect this, and also the repayment of part of the cxpt'Dse of transport, I beg to submit the following proposition ; viz. That the emigrants subscribe to a deed of indenture, whereby they bind them- selves to government for five years ; to work at a stated rate of wages for any one unto whom their services may be assigned on arrival in the colony, and their chil- dren to work for the remim ration of food and clothing, until they have attained the age of 18 years. ''l'i>c emigrants can be engaged by a person duly authoriaed to do so, in the name ot' His Majesty's government. That a copy of the indentures remain at the office of the landrost of the district in which the labourers are employed, hy which means the court of Landrost and Heemraaden may enforce compliance with its conditions. Supposing that agricultural labourers can be engaged at the rate of 9/. per annum, as the settlers agree to give 12/. per annum, the difference, 3/. may go as an annual instalment for the repayment of the expense of passage. Again, supposing women can be engaged at 4/. io«. per annum, 6/. being offered, the dinerence, 1/. los. may be similarly applied. Money-wages are not offered to children, consequently nothing can be repaid towards the expense of their passage. The same system of repayment would extend to mechanics, provided they could be hired at a rate 3/. per annum less than that helri out hy the settlers. According to this calculation, at the end of fi> .' ^ ':a< ifii, per head will have been returned for the me.i, and 7/. 104. per head fir )1 : von <'ti; now ' ^the number of men and won^en in each vessel at ' - «. e sum returned will amount to 1,875/. which deducted from 3,0011 i. Um amount of passage-money, leaves a balance of 1 ,1 25 /. against every party of 300 sent out. I would suggest, that the labourer be allowed the privilege of redeeming his indenture, at the commencement of his term of servitude, on payment to the landrost of 18/. or at any future period, on payment to his master of one fifth of 18/. for every year hi,^ engagement has to run. The same to apply to females, in A mar.''2r proppft'onate to the rate of wages they are to receive. T*>.. templov jrs, to whom labourers are assigned at the rate of 9/. yearly wages, i.h%U be bound tj pay into the hands of the landrost (for every one so assigned) .... the ON EMIGRATION PROM THE UNITED KINGDOM 1817 303 9/. per may ^o Again, ierea, the >ffered to will have g the ued will money, ming his It to the fifth of males, in ly wages, ssigned) the the Rumof s'- i • tnnum for any number of years not eiceedinif fivr, thai audi labouren muir rMU.Jn with tliem ; and for every woman at 4/. tut. per annum, (he sum of I /• lo«. shall be paid for a like number of years. That peraou receiving servants on the terms above stated, shall have the pri* vilege of transferring th^ir indentures to others, who roust also engage to pay the annual instalment (as U . mines due) for the remainder of the term ; tiiis, however, not to be done without tl knowli-d^ of the landrost, who ithdiild know froin whom to cspent naynt^tit tu wli ch end it would lie advisable tu keep a rPKisifr, wherein to note down lli< ames of all < mediately going to another, they \\ II have no object in doing '^- Q q 2 3154- r)o f , t John L. Foster, Esq. V ,, I $ May. 1827. ' ; . I I I Joilii h. FuiUr, Esq. 3 M»y. 1817 '■ i ["1 S.' ji _ Ml Hlji ' '. -^ \i 111 P 1 ' i|: M lillS- i i X 308 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 3154. Do you consider Uie state of pauperism in which the peasant!^ are to be found in certain parts of Ireland, is mainly arising from the redundance of popu- lation as compared with the demand for labour ?— Yes ; but I do not mean to say that the actual population of the country is greater than it would be able to maintain, if capital and the consequent demand for labour were materially increased ; and I am the rather inclined to make that observation, because those parts of the country in which there is the least of poverty and the greatest demand for labour, are in fact those which are most densely peopled. 3155. The question was limited to the sense of population as compared with the means of employment ; do you think it probable that capital can be intro- duced into Ireland so as to absorb the redundancy of the population, sunless part of that population be previously removed by emigration ? — I cannot see any proba- bility of such an extensive introduction of capital into Ireland as would be necessary to afford employment to tiie existing population. 3156. Are you not aware that the increase of population has led to a subdr- vision of land, which in its ultimate tendency is calculated materially to prejudice the interest of the landowner ? — Certainly. In some parts of Ireland it has already proceeded to such a length that nearly the entire produce of the land is applied ta the mere maintenance of the population, leaving scarcely any available fund for the payment of rent to the landlord. 3157. Are you not of opinion that the interests of the landed proprietors would be materially benefited by the removal of that sort of extra population from the property, and the present system being succeeded by one in which there might be an opportunity of encouraging tenants with capital? — It would be extremely advan- tageous to landed proprietors; they are already quite of that opinion, and almost panic-struck at the increase of population. They are in the course of resorting at' present to very violent remedies in order to correct it ; when land falls out of lease in Ireland, it is quite usual to eject the surplus population, as the only means of realizing any fair return in future from the land. 31.58. Do you concur with the opinions previously given before this Committee, that in many mstances the ejectment of the tenants, however desirable to the interest of the landlord, is prevented by motives of humanity, and sometimes by motives of apprehension? — More frequently by humanity than by apprehension. Generally speaking, it is not difHcult to enforce the process of the law, but it leads to scenes of such misery that many landlords, I know, shrink from becoming the authors of it. 2159. Under those circumstances, are you of opinion that the landlords of Ireland, who have the le^al means of ejecting that extra tenantry, would be dis- posed to contribute pecuniarily towards the emigration of the parties to be removed/ supposing that those parties should prefer to emigrate rather than take their chance of being absorbed some way or other on some other property ? — It would depend at least as much upon their ability as upon their good feeling ; wher6 there arc proprietors in fee of large estates^ not heavily encumbered, and who are in imme- diate contact with the tenantry, I have no doubt you might look for contributions ; but where the ejector of the tenant is a middle-man, possibly the last in a scries of half a dozen intermediate landlords, I should not entertain such an expectation, nor should I even where the tenant in fee was in contact with the occupying tenant, if he was a person embarrassed in his circumstances; such is very frequently the case in Ireland. I beg to add, that the disposition of the proprietors would be very much influenced by whatever opinion they might form as to the reasonableness of the sum proposed for their contribution. 3160. Are you of opinion, in point of fact, that the annual income of the landed proprietor would be increased in consequence of the removal of this extra tenantry, and the introduction of a system of emigration ? — Yes. 3161. In point of fact the proprietor would be a richer man, under the new system, than under the old ? — Ultimately I have no doubt he would ; supposing always he takes care that no extra population shall in future accumulate upon his estate. 3162. It it could be demonstrated that, under average circumstances, the pro- perty of the ejecting proprietor would be increased in value by the change of system, and that his actual rent would be increased, could tiiere be any objection in prin- ciple, to allow the tenant for life to charge the estate with an annuity, upon which money should be raised for tiiis specific purpose, always supposing that it could be demonstrated, that the annuity to be paid was less in amount than the increase of rent to be obtained ? — I think a proprietor would be more inclined to advance a sum in "* the pro- ' system, in prin- Dn which could be rease of ice a sum ill ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSay. 309 in the first iifttance, where his means enabled him to do so, than to entail a charge upon his estate. 3163^ You will not understand the question as applying to paktics wito have an option Mtwcen the two, but as Applying to parties who have not the means of ad- vancing the money necessary otherwise than by charging their estates ; therefore the question is, do you think there would be any objection m principle, to give a legis- lative power to parties to charge their estates with an annuity, by which the w! jle sum it would cost for the emigration of the extra tenantry could be raised, always supposingtthat a due precaution was taken throughout the whole of the transaction to prevent the vacuum being filled up? — I think it admissible as a principle, sup- posing the systtpi to include reasonable precautions against the vacuum produced by emigration being again filled up ; but whether the Inndlords would act upon the principle, must (iepend upon the opinion they might form as to the terms of the bargain offered to them by the government. 3164. Presupposing that full information was afforded upon the subject, and that it was established in a pecuniary point of view, that a contribution for emigration will answer to the proprietor, do you suppose that counties or districts, or parishes, or bodies of individuals, or individuals, would consent to establish some general system of contribution for the purpose of emigration? — I think you must deal with the proprietors individually, and not with bodies of men ; a body of individuals would not feel any security against the vacuum being filled up ; but an individual proprietor, after having got rid of his surplus population, may so consolidate the farms on his own property, as to prev<>nt, in a great measure, a recurrence of the mischief. 3165. Are you not of opinion, that throughout the whole of Ireland generally, the conviction, that much of the evils of her local situation arise from extra popu- lation, is u discovery that has been more or less lately made ? — Yes, during the last eight or ten years it has been a continually increasing conviction, and is at present felt by almost every one in Ireland. 3166. Do you suppose, in proportion as this conviction becomes the opinion of the nation, that as far as means can be adopted to prevent the filling up of any vacuum that may be occasioned, such means will be exercised by all parties who may be interested in the subject of emigration, for the purpose of preventing a recurrence of the present evil ? — Individuals would be well enough inclined to do it, but I should doubt their ability, unless the system of emigration to be adopted, should itself be founded upon principles tending to that result. The mere emigration of a portion of the jiopulation is in itself, I think, no security that the country will ultimately be less populous. The commencement of the late war found Ireland in possession of a population of four millions; during its cbiUifluance, Ireland afforded to the army and navy some hundred thousands of recruits, and yet at the termination of the war, so far from that exportation of a portion of the population liaving diminished its amount, the four millions had increased to seven. Now I do not see what there is in a system of mere casual emigration materially different from the recruiting system, so far as relates to its etTects upon the population, unless accompanied by regulations for preventing the vacuum so occasioned being filled up ; the case may be different. 31 67. Were not many of the recruits sent back upon the population at the end of the war ? — Perhaps fifty or a hundred thousand, for aught I knq,w ; but the increase was three millions. 3 1 68. Do you not think the increase would have been still greater, if those to whom you have alluded had not been exported ? — I really do not ; I do not think the removal of that description of population which supplies the recruiting service, ultimately lessens its amount ; I suspect thA it has even a tendency to increase it. 3169. In youi opinion, did not the recruiting for the army rather operate as a stimulus to the increase of population ? — I think so ; but I think the chief cause of increase to have been the tendency of population to increase to the utmost extent of the means of subsistence. 31 70. Was it not considered as a very profitable application of a portion of each family to enter into the service ? — Yes. 3171. Had it a tendency to encourage or decrease the population ? — I have no doubt that Ireland was more populous at the end of the 25 years of war, than it would have been if they had been years of peace. I beg to observe this is not peculiar to Ireland ; such was the result upon the population of Great Britain ; and the same thing occurred in France, where there was a still greater subtraction 550. Q q 3 °^ Jok» L. Fotttr, Em|. 3 May, 1817. J I Iwl %>* '■#-' j :'• Jukn L. Fotitr, \. ^ . J 3 M»y, 1S17. "% jio MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELE<;T COMMITTEJB of the population ibr the armies ; it is a fact whicii no well informed (Asrsooddubts that tilt! population of France at the end of the revolutionary war was greater by 6ve or six inilliong than at the commencement, notwith«tandiag the etiormous conscriptions which it perpetually supplied. * k. 31 72. Was not the recruiting service carried on during a period when all ^ other incidents derived from war, and the circumstances of tlia country in various respects, encouraged the increaseof population^— Certainly. 3173. Was it not in a very different state of circumstances from the .present? — I admit that ; and I am far from supposing that the population is now iiicreasing at the suuie rate as formerly ; I believe its increase to be at present verV slow, owing to the strong corrective checks in operation, but still that it would,,|fiU(e advantage oi any vacuum that you create, and immediately fill it up, unless the oqpde of cr^ptting the vacuum should carry within itself some principle of prevention. ^ 3 1 74. Therefore a system of emigration, though generally speakinv of the same tendency as recruiting, under other circumstances may produce very opposite effects ? — I think it possible that a system of emigration might be devised, which should carry along with it a sufficient guard against the filling up of the vacuum. 3175. Do you not think that the reduction of the population by emigration, or by Qther means during the war, and at the present time, would produce different re- sults ? — I think the vacuum would be filled up more rapidly during a state of war, than in a state of peace. 3176. Do you mean to state, that in your opinion surh would be the effect, inde- pendent of any measures intended to prevent it? — No, I think a system of emtgratioa ironi Ireland might be accompanied with safeguards, and prove eminently beneficil I think also it may be unaccompanied by them, and prove entirely delusive. 3177- Do you not conceive that the general conviction of all classes in Ireland is, that the population ought to be checked by all allowable means? — Certainly; but I tliink that the population may increase notwithstanding the conviction. The young peasant, when about to marry, does not trouble himself upon that point. 3178. Do you not think it is the persuasion of the lowest class of persons in Ireland, that the greater part of the evil of their condition is derivable from the re- dundancy of their numbers ? — I do ; but I do not think the persuasion will prevent individuals from marrying at an early age, and becoming the parents of families. 3179. Do you not think that the worse their situation is, the more reckless they are upon the subject of marriage ? — No doubt of it. 3180. And you consider that the extreme poverty of thoir situation mainly arises from the small remuneration for labour in consequence of the redundancy of labour, as compared with the demand ? — Exactly so. 3181. In the case of a proprietor who might relieve his properly from the bpdy of extra tenantry, supposing such extra tenantry to be removed by emigration, do you not consider that the paupers in the immediate neighbourhood of that property would be absorbed as labourers, more or less, under the new system of management of the property consequent thereon ? — Certainly, if the property is supposed to be sufficiently cleared to produce that effect ; but that seems a very extreme supposition. 3183. In point of fact, therefore, the removal of that intermediate class would enable employment to be afforded to the one immediately below it? — It would be so if the class which you remove should not be itself the lowest ; but it is the veiy lowest class which we principally want to have removed. 3 1 83. Whereas if such extra tenants were not removed, the probability is, that they would fall into the class immediately below them, and thereby increase the poverty and wretchedness already existing ? — Certainly. 3 1 84. Are you not of opinion that nine-tenths of those extra tenants, who«e removal from the lands of proprietoif is here contemplated, are either absolute paupers or immediately verging upon a state of pauperism? — I should 'rather say ninety-nine hundredths. 3185. You have alluded to some measures, which in your opinion would tetKi to prevent the consequence of the vacuum being filled up, in case a system of emigra- tion was adopted ; have the goodness to state to the Coimnittee your views on that subject?— I do not pretend to say that I have any very matured views upon the sub- ject. So far is the system of emigration is applied to families ejected for the pur- pose of consolidating farms, I tiiink we may see our way. The vacuum in such case will not be filled up, for the consolidation of the farms takes care of that ; you thus also apply your benevolence to the class, whicli of all others requires it the most; no language can adequately ile^-cribe the suffeiings of those unfoituimtc pcr- ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1S2;, 311 tons ejectedf often in great numbers, with their wives and children, from thcii habi- tations, and without money or food, and scarcely with clothing, thrown upon society, every Where unwilling to receive them ; you thus also remove the class which is of all othA'9 most likely to disturb the peace of the country; nine-tenths at least of our diMurbaiices are agrarian and not political. Join L. Fotttr, Eiq. 3 M«y. 1837. d teiKl to >f emigra- vs on that n the sub- the pur- I in such hat; you res it the iimlc poi- Sabbati, 5' die Mail, 1827. \ R. J. WILMOT HORTON, ESQUIRE, IN THE CHAIR. The V IMi'' Ae Rev. Thomas Robert Malthus, called in ; and Examined. 3i86it U/fVE you been in Ireland? — I was in Ireland for a short time, on a visit, in 1817. 3187. Have you taken into consideration the state of population in Ireland? — In some degree, cei'tainly. 3188. Have you entered into any discussion of it in your works on the Popula* tion, and the Principles of Political Economy ? — Yes, both in the Essay on Popu- lation and in the Principles of Political Econotny; perhaps rather more in the latter. 31 89. What opinion have you formed with regard to the probable existing number of the people of Ireland ?— Judging from the documents which I have seen, I should suppose the population may consist of about seven millions and a half. 3190. Will you have the goodness to explain to the Committee in what way you come to that conclusion ? — Comparing the amount of the population in 1 792, and the amount of the population according to the last census in 1821, the rate of in* crease in these tii^enty-nine years appears to have been such as would have doubled the population in about forty years ; and supposing it to have proceeded at this rate, the present population would be about seven millions and a half. 3191. Wiiat do you conceive the number to have been in 1792'' — There is an estimate by Dr. Beaufort, which makes it four millions sixty-eight thousands at that time. 3192. Are you acquainted with the grounds upon which that calculation was made by Dr. Beaufort? — Not particularly. I have understood it was made from the houses, and the number of persons to a house ; but I have no particular infor-' mation on the subject. 3193. It is stated in the Population Returns for Ireland in 1821, that Dr. Beau- fort calculated at the rate of six individuals to a house ; in your opinion, would that be a correct mode of calculation ? — I have no good means of judging; but I should suppose it might not be above the mark. 31941 Will you explain to the Committee on what the rate of increase, or doubling the population, depends ? — It depends upon the proportion which the excess of the births above the deaths bears to the whole population. 3195. Be good enough to explain to the Committee upon what the excess of births depends ? — The excess of births depends upon three causes, namely, the pro- lificness of the marriages, the proportion of the born that live to mar^, and the earliness of the marriages compared with the expectation of life. 3196. From your acquaintance with Ireland, are you of opinion that those causes have existed there to any considerable extent? — Certainly, to a considerable extent. 3 1 97. Do those circumstances exist there in a great degree, which are favourable to a rapid increase of population ? — Yes, c^ainly. 3198. Are you of opinion that the population is now proceeding with the same degree of rapidity that it has up to the present time ? — I have no particular means of judging, but I should rather suppose that it was not going on so fast since the census. Prolificness, and the causes that prompt to marriage, are likely to be the same, but, in all probability, the mortality is greater. 3199. As far as the subsistence of the people goes, is that the same ? — I am not able to judge of that correctly, but I should think not quite the same; the sub* sistence probably has not been furnished so amply as before. 3200. What are the circumstances that induce you to think that the population k not going on so rapidly at present as before ? — Only the arcounts'we have heard of the great distress in Ireland, and the fevers which have prevailed ti^pre. 550i , 3Q4 3201. Are Rev. T. R. Malthui. 5 May, 1S37. ! a 31 a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Rev. A. Mallhui. 5 R'lyi 18117. U 3201. Are you acquainted with the fact, that a practice has exinttd in Ireland of subdividing land to a great degree ? — Yes. 3302. Do you think that may have contributed to the present amount of the population? — Very much indeed. *-' 3303. Would the habit of living on su cheap a food as potatoes, under uUier circumstances, in your opinion have been productive of any thing like the present amount of population, without that habit of subdividing the land ? — Not pertainly, to the same extent ; but the habit of living on potatoes would naturally*kave a great tendency to increase the population, because the labouring classes would obtain food with greater facility ; and the same portion of land would afford th^means of sub- sistence to a much greater number of people. 0^'' 3204. Are there not other countries where there is a still cheaper description of food on which people live, and which is obtained with a less degree a| labour ? — ' I believe there are. In some parts of New Spain, according to Humboldt, there ■ are. * , 3205. Is it iound that the population has increased in those countries in any thing like the same degree as in Ireland ? — Latterly it has. Altogether it has not increased in any degree in proportion to the fertility of the soil ; but latterly the progress of population has been rapid, according to Humboldt. 3206. What is the change which has taken place, which has led to this alteration of the number? — That I am not sufficiently aware of. 3207. Has there been the same facility of obtaining land in those countries ? — I cannot say. • 3208. Supposing a pracuce is now introduced into Ireland, of clearing farms oif a number of the occupying tenants as the old leases fall out, do you think that that circuiiislunce could, in any very short time which has taken place since that practice has been introduced, have produced any very sensible effect in checking the progress of the population ? — It might have produced some effect. I should think that a con- siderable increase had been going on, although not to the same extent as before. 3209. Are you of opinion that it is very desirable that that practice should be persevered in on the part of landlords, with a view of producing a change in the condition of the labouring class of the people of Ireland ? — I think it most parti- cularly desirable, and that if Government ever makes a sacrifice in order to relieve a redundant population, it is at such a period that it is most called upon to do it ; JDecause the change cannot take place without depriving a number of persons of their means of living, and consequently if they are not removed by emigration, it cannot be done without producing most extreme distress. 3210. Are you aware that a habit has existed in Ireland, on the part of the landlords, of letting their lands on very long leases, for three lives, and twenty- one years ? — Yes, I have understood so. 3211. Under such circumstances, do you conceive it possible that this practice of clearing farms as they fall in. can have so great an effect in diminishing the number of people, as to produce that degree of change which seems to be necessary in order to bring the proportion to a right ratio between the demand for the labour of the people and the number of labourers willing to work? — It can only do it by the destruction of the people, by their actually dying of want and disease, unless some mode is adopted of providing for them. ; ' 321 2. Have you ever taken into consideration what wquld be the future effect of the population of Ireland continuing to increase at the rate it has done, first on the condition of the lower orders in Ireland ? — I conceive it quite impossible it. should go on increasing at the rate that it does for any great number of years ; and as it is the law of nature that man cannot live without rood, the populatiqn will be reduced to the quantity of food they can obtairt; and consequently it must be checked ; but it will be checked at the expense of a prodigious quantity of misery, 3213. Do you allude to the great increase of mortality ? — Yes ; a great increase of mortality, which cannot take place without very great increase of previous poverty and misery. 3214. Have you taken into consideration what may be the effect of the continued increase of the population of Ireland upon the condition of the labouring classes in England ? — I think that the effect will be most fatal to the happiness of the labouring classes in England, because there will be a constant and increasing emigration from; Ireland to England, which will tend to loWer the wages of labour in En^and, and to prevent the good effects arising from the sifperior prudence of the labouring clashes' |n this country. ^v^j'gwr^^'^H'.'-^: -i Bt*;!^«.w-«=*' > ■' ■ ■ . .- '*^: :-,: • '- ■ ■. 32«'5. #«■ !0N EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1897- 31S H5- Arc 3315. Al^ you able to give the Committee any information with reapect to the eflf^tB almdy |>roduced by an increased numlter ot Irtih coiuing over to Knglandr — I iiave only understood gencrully, that in the western parts ol Loglaiid, in the manu* lacturffig districts, in Maiichca*?r and in Glasgow particularly, tlio wages ot labour have been lowered essentially by the coniins over of the Irisli labourers. 331^. In you opinion, might this emigration of Irish contribute to alter materiallv the habits orthe labouring class in England ? — I should think it might, and that il might have the pernicious effect of introducing the habit of living almost entirely upon potatoes. 33 1 7. What general consequences would you suppose would be the result of that change in theiiabits of the people in England with regard to their subsistence?-* That they would be very much worse off m every respect 3318. Ill their manners and conduct? — Yes, in every respect, moral and physical. 3319. What effect might it produce upon the poors rates of England, in your opinion? — ^That would depend very much upon whether any of the Irish coming over were entitled to relief here. 3330. Would it not contribute to make a greater number of the English labourer* applicants for relief? — Yes, it would, certainly. 3331. Whenever there was a redundancy of labour in any English parish, it would prevent their being absorbed elsewhere, in consequence of the Irish spreading themselves ?— Yes, just so. 3333. Do not you conceive, under the existing feature of comparison between tha British islands, that if the population of any district in Great Britain were to be materially reduced by a system of emigration, one effect would be that the vacuum would be immediately filled up with an increased number ot Irish? — I ahould ttiink so, ccrtiunly. 3333. Have you had any means of satisfying your own mind as to the extent of emigration that prevails from Ireland to England at this moment? — I am not in* formed upon the subject. 3334. Can you give the Committee any information as to what proportion of the population of the metropolis is at thb moment actually Irish ? — I have no in> formation upon that subject that I can depend upon. 3335. Be so good as to mention what parts of Ireland you have visited, and at what period ? — In 1817 I made a visit in Westmeath, and went afterwards to tha Lake of Killamey. 3336. Can you form any opinion as to what amount of population per squara mMe, speaking of the English mile, you would think a fair allowance for a popula« tion strictly agricultural, in a country circumstanced like Ireland in respect of fer> tility and climate ? — It would depend much upon the degree of skill with wbidi the cultivation was carried on. 1 cannot answer the question. 3337. Have you formed any opinion as to what would be the practical effects of introducing a system of poor laws into a country circumstanced like Ireland?— I should think that the rates would very soon absorb the rentals of all the estates. 3238. Do you think that on the whole it would have a tendency to alleviate or to increase the misery that now prevails there? — I think on the wliole, and finally* it would amavate it. 3239. Explain what you conceive would be the immediate effect on the rental in Ireland, of introducing the system of poor laws i — All those people who are out of work now would claim to be supported by their parishes. 3330. Do you conceive that the number of unemployed paupers at present iq Ireland would be sufficient to absorb the present rental of the land ? — -I do not Jciiow whether it would be sufficient for that 333 1 . Supposing that by any system of emigration an immediate reduction of ithe.population of Ireland to the extent of half a million could be effected, do yoil Apt think that there is in the existing o'der of things in that country a tendency immediately to fill up thatvucuum? — There is always a natural tendency towards ^he filling up of a vacuum, but if the landlords in Ireland were making a change in the management of their estates and were altering the distribution of their landi ^ think' it is possible that the vacuum might not be filled up, because those: mi* eerable Hovels that had been deserted might be pulled down and not be replaced^ ' .33.33> iHara youreadtheevidence' which. wa»:^ven. before, the CoiuniittBf of Jliqiiiry. inV^ltoa State of IrelAnd?r^Iha!velaoked atit in various imts.: ■■■.'■' 3333. You'observe what a low rate of wages is rec«vKl?—Y«ai' ■' .'^< I . >SiA?- • R ' . 3234. Taking R«v: r. II. A/«Mw. V . 1 6 M«3r. >8*7. U m n\ T,U.MMuu. fffft S14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMirrSS 3934*^ Taking tlie low rat* of mget and tlie number of people intd coai{No doubt ■': 3347< Would you not admit, that if the expense of removing them wasiequai t6 what might be cdculated, upon the average of their lives, the expense of muntain* ing them,, supposing there was no chance of their services being called fpr^ sach expense would bC' legitimately applied ? — Most legitimately. '.o 3348. A-foiUmii if it> coeld be shewn that that expense was eoq^eraNy- le^p than 4faat of. majnlMnii^ 'them, yo» wooM admit the ftupediencey ef t^oNifM; them?— Certainlyt . -: .--..^v-: ■> :-. ,- ..v.-.;-.,. -^ .,: - v.-.o.> •.; ... : ■"-. jn-:.'- ■; . - \ .i . 3gJ49. If •N EMIORATION FROM THX UNITBO KINGDOM : ifli). )!« ■ I- nby ettiit- nainfairi beawM^ benefit t6 tnAhf lev 3^- ff 3349. IP the eircttiiMlancei of the country were Mch, that in all probability the vacuum occaiioned by so removing them wftuld be filled up, would you aay that •uch an eipenditurc would be expedient? — That would depeiid upon the frequency of repetition of the expense, and whether altogether the expense was greater tbaa the maintenance of them. '. , 3350. Under the influence of the Poor Laws in Eagkad- nni of the circumstance! existing in Ireland contributing to the incrense of the population, would such an expenditure at this time, in your opinion, be expedient? — A grv*'** expenditure ia so doubt warranted in Ireland, particularly if there is a chaage » to take place in the management of the land. I do not know whether the govei.iment is oaUad vpon to undertake a large expenditure, if there is no chance of any change in tlM Ctfcumstances that render the population redundant. 3351. You have stated, that in Ireland if lands were to be cleared and cot^pN to be destroyed,, there would in your opinion be an effectual remedy aflbrded bt |«»* venting the vacuum being inconveniently filled up?->-Yes. . 3359* If in England, where a system of poor rates exists, redundant labourers were to be removed by emigration, and it were to be demonstrated that under tlM terms of such removal, their condition was highly improved in the country to which they were sent, might not the system of relieving kble-bodied men, which has grown yp, as many contend, contrary' to the spirit of the law, be gradualljr extinuuismd, to the extreme advantage of the administration of the Poor Laws in England?— it certainly might. 3353. Do you not consider that under these circumstances an effsctual reai«i« would be laid for the prevention of a disproportionate population in future P-^-lf at Vhe same time, as suggested with regard to Ireland, the houseaof those who emigrated were pulled down, ithink then there might be something like an effectual remedy 3354. Does any other practical remedy present itself to you as desirable of being Wttroduced into this country, with respect to the filling up of any vacuum occasioned ^ emigration i*— -No other occurs to me, except the one I myself proposed • loHg while. ago, that those that were born after a certain time^ should not be allowed to t)ave any parish assistance. : 3355. If parochial assistance were rigidly and invariably limited to the suppoil of the aged and infirm, or of children, and universally denied to able-bodied mea who have no opportunity of working, do you think the existence of a well regulated poor rate under such restrictions would be prejudicial to the country ? — l^bapa •ot; but it appears to be difficult always to restiictit in that way. i 3356. Admitting, for the sake of the proposition, that poors rates were judiciously administered under such limitations, you are of opinion a poors rate might not b« inexpedient ?— At any rate it would be a great improvement, as compared with the present mode of admmistration. '■ 3357- If a. aystem of emigration could be adopted with benefit to the labourer emigrating, do you not think that it might justify the enactment of a positive law; itemovin^ 9II claim upon the part of an ^le-bodied pauper for assistance 01- for work Uilder circumstances of his being in a state of destitution?— As I should say so iodependently of the queatbn of emigratioBt I must say so stiU nuNW strongly w4tea coupled with the remedy proposed. • 3358. Are you not of opinion that the general situaticMi of the labourers is dete-> oorated and. prejudiced by a comparatively small excess of the supply of labout over the demand ? — Very much so» and sometimes, by a smaller exces* tban ana might perhaps suppose. 3259. Are you of opinion that the removal of a comparetively smatl part: of the population which now appears to be in a state of destitution, might operate «q craate a considerable improvement in tiie condition of those who remaia?^-'Noi avery small part of those really out of work, but a.Kmova) of e snail' port o# tbo whole labouring population might effect a very beneficial change in the conditioB qC tbe remainder.. 3360. Are you of opinion therefore, that that law which apptics to«omnioditic«^ qnd.whisb is a matter of notoriety in every market in the country^ namely, that a small excess of supply deteriorates the value of an article, applies completely and) qooclusively to labour, which ia the article a poorman has to lM>ing< tO' market )t— Certainly it does. : ' . 3361;. At^ou of opinkm that, Mihere it. is admitted thatioeseeasvof labouein i|U.,hFmche> eiists^ any real nelief can aocrue to the Ubo«rai«( ae long asj laboHr nemains in that stiateiof redundanceiP-miCertainly. Bii|L' . .. - • .^.u-.v-it^ .. ...>.. i 4,^jo. ^ ' Rr2 3'j63. Admitting 7* M* JVtfMMn sMityi ' I »• r.ii.jir*MM. 6 M«y, 9i« MlNUTtS OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEC 396a. Admitting that to be the cue, you aru, then, distinctly of opinion that neither circumstances of taxation, Ah of the value of money, cuold opctat* eflTectually to the relief of the labourer, as long as labour is in that execs* ?— As lung MS it is in that excess ; but an alteration in the value of money often doea make a difference in regard to the demand fo<- labour, and the desree of excess. 3363. Would not the demand for labour riways accommodate itself to that state of things ?— After a time. -> . 3164. It would have an inevitable tendency to do so?— No doubt. ''^ 3365. Do you not consider that in Ireland, if agricultural capital were to b« introduced, and improved modes of husbandry, so far from having the effect of increasing the demand for the labour of the poor, they would have a tendency t» diminish the demand ? — If labour were more skilfully and more judiciousl)* employed, there would be a much less number of persons employed upon the land ; a great part of the labourers in Ireland produce as it were their own food, and on* can hardly call that a regular demand for labour^ 3266. May nut the want of agricultural capital have been a cause of the habit of sub-letting and dividing lands which has taken place in Ireland 7—1 suppose it has. 3367. If the agricultural capital were to increase considerably, might it not happen that more profit would be obtained by holding land, than by underletting it?— I should think so, certainly. • 336S. Then in proportion as agricultural capital increases in Ireland, may it not be attended with a much greater clearing of farms than is going on? — Certainly. 3369. Did not something of this kind take place in the Hishlands of Scotland, some years ago ? — Yes, no doubt ; it is what naturally takes place in the improve^ ment of a country. 3370. That is, from a state of great poverty, when lands are !ield in small pareela by a poor description of occupiers, and when agricultural capiiul is introduced ^nd farmers can manage very large farms with the aid of very litii^ U bour? — Yes. 3371. It is a custom in many parishes in Scotland, in the manufacturing distrietSy for the proprietors of small poiiions of land to cover them v/ith duellings for tlie poorer class of population, those are immediately filled with Irish, and intbecours* of three years they have the same claim as the rest of the population, but there ia no power of removal ; has it ever occurred to you, that, by making the person who builds tliose cottages contribute in a greater degree than others, that would furiHsh a fair control and check upon the too great encouragement of persons, with a view.of gaining a competition for house-rent ? — I should think so, certainly, and that some regulation of that kind would be v. .rv beneficial. 3373. Do you not consider that the perf>;ciion of machinery, whether in agri^ callure or manufacture, is of the highest advantage U> the interests of any country \ T— Yes, certainly. %% 3373. Are you not of opinion that when once machinery is invented, if it were to be resisted by the prejudices of any class in the community, that resistance would prove to be ineffectual, inasmuch as it would be adopted in some other part where the same prejudice did not exist? — Yes, certainly. ' 3374. Do you think that in the present state of the manufacturing districts in England, where the population is admitted to be in the greatest redundance, th» manufrcturing capitalist has any reason to be alarmed, that if a part of the redun- dant population were removetl, the wages of labour would be so raised as to dimi*> nish the necessary rate of profits ; might not the introduction of machinery com- fletely prevent any detriment accruing to the ( apitalist in consequence of that ?-^ t might, undoubtedly ; but there would be, I should hope, some rise in the price of labour ; it is in fact the object of the emigration to improve the condition of the remaining labourers. 3375. If the manufacturing artisan, in addition to his wages, is supported b^ compulsory or voluntary charity, do you not consider that, in point of tact, that is to be considered as in the light of wages? — Yes, no doubt, in a national «H>int of view. 3376. Do you not think it highly probable that, in the present state of the excesft of the population, machinery is held back in consequence of the consequences that must inevitably ensue to any further displacement of that population |t the present atonent? — I h&ve pot. heard of machinei^ being checked upon that account, but I think it [^bable. I am of opinion tbat machinery may sonwtimes increase witli 'ti ""'.•■ ■ . " V. ' ™ ■» m^. ■ /Well jON emigration prom the VWIk^ Ci )U: \ti% 117 auch rapidity h tn dclcriomle th« condition of Ihr iixourti • en m umc m U appear* to do at present. If invention* to iho.ien lutMMi ■fTt»<^imaim tm tiie emeitiion of the niarltet, there will be a temporary thro.vtni. it k\ 'atfiK eni in aom* dcntrimenta of iiiduairy, without the nirant of gatiinn -^ npriciycd m w n. 3177. Do you not contider, therefore, that a country, imv "oloniea «i m NaUmiiad extent of fertile land, would act judiciowly b remettvif^ any teiii^ M^iry depreuion of the labouring claMca in consequence of the introduction ot machiwry, by removing the redundant labourer! to thoat colonics, and coiiieauently preventing Ibc general wi^ea of labour being deteriorated?— Certainly, if it is considered as a case not liliely to recur ; whether pcmaocntly the Government is called upon to undertake a very considerable expense when the same circumstances are likely to- iMur continually, is another question. 3378. You have feferred mora than once to the expense supposed to bo sustained by the Government for emigration; would you continue to use that plirasa'if it could be demonstrated that the expense could be repaid by the production of the- «mi^nt in Iho new country to which he was taken I — If it could be, I should not eontinua it. 3:179. Although cheapness of labour, and consequently a cheapness of production, must have a tendency to command an improving Aaiket, and must have a tendency to increase demand, do you not admit there is a limitation to that, beyond whicli any cheapness will produce no effect?— Certainly. . 3a8o. Then, in point of fact, if a manufactured commodity be produced beyond a given extent, no degree of cheapness will force a sale of it i — No ; at least no such sale as will allow of its being continued to be produced with a profit. 3381. In a national point of view, even if it were admitted that the low rat^of wages was an advantage to the capitalist, do you think it fitting that labour should be kept permanently in a state bordering on distreu, to avoi(< the injury that might accrue to the national wealth from dimmishing the rate of profit ? — ^1 should say by 4b Bieans fitting ; I consider the labouring classes as forming the largest part of tho nation, and therefore that their general condition is the most nnportunt of all. . 3283. But merely with reference to the interest of the capitalist, do you not consider that it is to.the best interests of that class that the labHOurcrs should be m ao average state of .prosperity ? — I think that the home demand of the country depends very much upon the condition of the labouring classes ; that is, that the extent of the effectual demand for the manufactures and commodities consumed at borne, depends essentially upon the good condition of the labouring cldsves. : 33S3. Are not the manufacturer's profits principally dependent on a low rate of vage8?T-I do not (|uite a^ree to that doctrine, I think that wages and profit* very' often rise together. When the value of the whole commodity rises from the state< of the supply compared with the demand, there is a greater value to divide between the capitalist and the labourer.; the labourer will have higher money wages, and the profits of stock may be higher at the same time. 3384. If not the tendency of a redundant supply of labour ready at all times to fill up the decrease of the labouring population by want and disease, beneficial to tbe manufacturing and commercial niterest, inasmuch as it lowers wages and raisea profits, and renders possible a successful competition with foreign capitalists }—-l- ahould think that even if it did so, no persons could possibly bring themselves, ta encourage such a system with that view. • %i' 3385. Compassion to the labouring poor and regard to the public peace may tender the diminution of this supply of labour desirable, but a redundancy is favour- able to trade and commerce, is it not/ — In one respect it is, and in one respect not;, it may enable the capitalist to work up his commodities cheaper, and to extend hi* foreign trade, but it certainly will have a tendency to diminish the home trade, and; I think the home trade much more important than the foreign. ' \ 32S6. When the labouring class' in a country receive good wages, does not th« demand for manufactured goods on the part of that class form one of the best markets a manufacturer has ?— ^I think it forms a very important part of the market (or manufactured goods, of a cheap kind. i 3387. Would you say that any country could be a prosperous manufacturing country, without having that degree of demand existing amongst the labouring classes? — -1 think not; it would be only partially prosperous. > .3288. Supposing a country to exist without taxation, with an unrestricted trad« ip,Com or food, and with a metallic circulating medium, thus avoidingthe disad- vantages which are pf esiuDcd -tp ari^ from a contrary Ktate of things i- muht not thf , 55a. Rr3 labotircrs Rtv. \ r. A. iuuiiu. Sil HINUTBS or EVIDENCE BEFORE SEI.ECT COMMITTBI Ubourcn in such a countrv bd cxpo»«d to grekier iiiconveiiwnce tlMii it iwnimed m> CrU uf (iront Uritain aiul IrelKml at tiM- prrtcnt moment, provivtett tlmt tU p<»fHt> lion wa» dciiM in kucli a coiuilry and preaaod cloaely Qii the iiteari^ ul ivi4M»t«iic«, anil if tho supply of labour wan in gruat exceta a« compared with uie ileiiy««»4 1 — Certainly, if it were altof^ether in greater excraii, and it miglit bo in greater cxccm. Tbc (litlreRii of the labouring daiaea will depend upon the degree of redundancy. 3389. Although the redundancy in the wuply of labour thould tend to iropovurisb ^e conditioD of the labouring clatset generally, yet i* it not poaaible that the demand in the bomo market for tlie grois amount of produce might be fully a« grpataa if the Ubouring clasiiet were fewer in number and in more proaperoue condition ^— I •tiould think not. 3^90. Have tlie goodneu to itatc the reason why? — Tlie difleren /i in point of numbers might not be very great ; and if to, the dinereiice iif the demand of tho laboiuing claasei, living well and comfortably, would in my opinion be such aa more than to balance tlie numbers. I cannot uf course speak wipi accuracy, but I should say there is a great diflerence in the manner in which the labQuring classes live, as to clothing, houses, and other domestic comforts and convcnieiiccH, and that habita of tbtt kuid must create a great demand for commodities and labour, a great home demand. t 3391. Then it would resolve itself into a question of proportions? — Yes. ««< 3393. If it were not prcclHcly soi, that proposition involves on the one hand the btppiness of the laboufing classes, and on the other their misery ? — Yes; which I hoHi to be the most important of all considerations, the one to which all other* should give way. 3393. From your oeneral knowledge of the state of the North American colonies belonging to Grf^t Britain, are you not of opinion the introduction of the popu* Ution there will tend to their benefit ? — Certainly. 3394. Do you not consider that the general wealth of the empire would be am- terially increased by that accession of population, independently of the advantageoiA consequences that might result to this country from the abstraction of that popu* lation '"-Certainly ; reckoning that as part of the empire, the whole wealth of the Qiupire would be increased. . 3305. Do you not consider that the introduction of English j)opulation into those colonies will tend in the end to furnish a very valuable market for the introAiction of the manufactures of this country? — I think it will. 3396. .Do you not consider that the fertile land now remaining in a state of desert, wiien combined with the labour of those persons so introduced, will in the end furnish a great accession of wealth ?■— Certainly it will, though these colooica may not always belong to the British empire. . 3397. You are aware thai: changes have taken place in the colonial system of this country?— Yes. . . 3398. You are aware that the British laws exist throughout our North Amnrioan Qolonies?— Yes. < 3399. Under the circumstances of the accession of population and the inci«as» of wealth, what cause do you refer to as likely to produce a wish on tbe part of those colonies to separate themselves from tbe mother country, and attach tbem-v selves to another stcte ?— There might not, for a considerable time, be a particular wish on the part of the colonies' to separate; but they may be conquered by th* Voited States. * 3300. Do you not consider that tl; introduction of population is one tendi«ig to promote a rapid iucrcaic of population .■ — Their habita are v^ry unfavvMjrHhIc in regard to their iiwii condition, bccauic they are inclined to b« latisKed >Mth U>* very loweat degree of comfort, and to marry with little other pron- pcct than ihut of being able to get |iolatoeN for themselves and their children. 3307. What are the circumttancc» whieh contribute to introduce siioh habits in acouiiiry?— The deeded condition of the people, oppression, and ignorance. 3:{o8. Do there appear to you great op|)ortunitits for removing those habit* in Ireland and checking this rapid progress of population? — No doiibt there isfreat room ti I improvement. • 330^. Do you consider that tfie influence of education would be considerable? —I think it would be considerable, if of the right kind. 33 1 0. Do you think that any combination of circumstances could effect tltiti nnlesa some part of the redundant population was removed ? — It would be a woric of great time, and probably of great suffering, if it were accomplished, but I should not ekpect it to be accomplishra without emigration ; and one of the cases in which I think a government is called upon to make a great pecuniary sacrifice, is, whtr* there is a prospect of some great and beneficial change, which change cannot tallo place without such sacrifice, unless you are disposed to ovrrWmk the greawst possible degree of tpiserv. 3311. I ou have mentioned, that oppression contributes to proluce those habitt to which you have alluded} in what way do you imagine in Ireland there is opprM* sion ? — I think that the government of Ireland has, upon the whole, been very unfavourable to habits of that kind ; it has tended to degrade the general mass of the people, and ctnsequently to prevent them from looking forward and acquiring habits of prudence. 331a. Is it your opinion that the minds of the people may be so influenced by Ibir cituimstanccs under which they live, in regard to civil society, that it may con<* iribut^cry much to counteract that particular habit which leads to the rapid incraat* of population ? — I think so. 33I3> What circumstances,* in your opinion, contribute to produce a taste for comfort and cleanliness among a people r — Civil and political liberty, and education. 3314. You are aware there are a great number of small possessions and oceu* pations in 'Ireland? — Yes. 3315. What is the general extent of the occupations of the smaller class of occu- ^rs there ? — I am not particularly informed. 331 1>. Are you aware that the trreater proportion consist of possessions not greater than an acre of ground ?— I have understood that is the case in many natances. 3317- What effect would any change of the moral or religious state of the »>veni-> meot of that country produce upon persons occupying such possessions ?*~-U could not produce any immediate effect if that system wfre continued ; with that systom of occupancy there must be an excessive redundantly of people, because, from tils nature of tolerably good land, it will always produce more than can be employed ■pon it, and the consequence must be, that there will be a great number of people not employed. • 3318. Is, therefk>re, not the first step towards improvement in Ireland necessarily to be accomplished by &n alteration of the present state of the occuparfty of lai^ ?-*- I think that such an alteration is of the greatest possible importance, but that the other should accompany it ; it would not have the same force without. 3319. Is there not, in a country in which the poor have no legal claims on the land, as in Ireland, some necessary limit to the increase of population ? — No doubt there is ; if the wages of labour are not such as to enable the labourer to command A sufficient, quantity of food to support such a family as will maintain an increasing population, then the population must become stationary. 3310. Has Wot the population of Ireland, in your opinion, reached that term? *-^l suppose it has not; I believe that there are still, many part* of Ireland ariiich may be farther cultivated, and that the population wHI really go on ine justified. < 3325. Would you say that the Legislature would be justified in adopting any distinct measure for the purpose of checking population in Ireland, imposing a tat ■en cottages, or aty thing of that kind ? — Yes, something of that kind I should think might not be inexpedient. I cannot enter into details, but some such measure might be beneficial. 3326. Do any measures occur to you, which the Legislature could adopt, to render a system of emigration efficient, by contributing to prevent the vacuum being filled up ? — I think that some very useful measure has been adopted alreadyl that of preventing of sub-letting without the consent of the landlord ; and to this might be added a tax upon cottages, to be paid by the landlord ; but wlut will most contribute to it, is a determination on the part of the landlords, to manage their lands in a different way ; I do not know how the Government can interlere to force them ; a great deal must depet.d upon the landlords themselves. 3327. Are you aware that under the system of leasing lands in Ireland, the whole country almost is, as it were, free from the control of the landlord ?-— lu that case, the enlarging of farms can only take place very gradually. 3328. Supposing the case of a proprietor in Irelund who wishes to rid hin property of this extra tenantry, supposing the extra tenants are assisted to emigrate for the purpose of preventing that degree of destitution which must ensue under the present circumstances of Ireland if they were forcibly ejected and left to find space for themselves; ft the supposed case of the removal of those extra tenants, do you not imagine there would be an immediate demand created for the labour of paupers in the immediate neighbourhood, in consequence of the improved cultivS'' tion of that property under tty system of larger farms ? — There would be a greater demand for labour in proportion to the supply, but the improved cultivation Kould not require so many hands as before. ■ 3329. You have already stated, that in Ireland thcie are persons who produce precisely what they consume ; with regard to Uiat very numerous class, the removal of that class would lead to a greater demand for labour as employed by capital ? — Yes^capital being understood as we generally understand thb term. * 3330- The great advantage arising from the consolidation of small farms into one, is the saving of labour upon it ? — That is one great advantage, > 3331. Then if a system of consolidation uf small farms in Ireland be adopted, the population being now redundant, and no vent be opened for the surplus popula* tion, such consolidation will only add to the existing evil ? — No doubt of it-. 3332. Is there not another and much greater evil incident to the present sub* division of land, namely, that in many instances the whole produce of the land if barely sufficient to support the population living upon it, leaving nothing whatever Available to pay rent to, the landlord ? — When thatcon)es.to excess it will cure itself, to a certainc-degree, for the .landlord will not allour tenants to be on . his- land who cannot «i|prd lo pay him, and do not pay him,- any rent. 3333. The ,^.0N EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa?. 321 'n 3333. Tlie question supposes a case which too frequently exists in Ireland, in which the property has become so overloaded with the stock of iiumnn creatures, that the whole produce of the land is barely sulHcient to support them in lite ; a land- lord of course cannot look for rent from such property, and if there is a desire to make it pay him any rent in future, at the expiration of the lease h6 must clear off the surplus population ? — Certainly. 1 3334- When the subject of the introduction of capital into Ireland is mentioned, are you not prepared to admit that capita! has a tendency to flow naturally where it Jias a chance of being productively employed ? — Certainly. 3335- Do you not consider that much of the lawless state of Ireland depends upon the superabundance of the population ? — A very great part of it, no doubt. 3336- Do you not conceive that, supposing an effectual remedy provided by emigration, which might extend to a much greater degree than may ba supposed in the first instance, there would be a much greater tendency of capital to flow there .than exists at present ? — I think there certainly would. 3337- ^'i^ respect to the transmission of capital from one country to another, would the degree of security existing in the country to which it is sent, be very much taken into consideration by the owner of it ? — Very much indeed. 333S- Would not one Af the principal inducements to capitalists to embark capital in Ireland, be the low rate of wages ?— That would be one great induce- ment, but it might be very easily counterbalanced by the idea of insecurity. 3339. In your opinion, the idea of inserjrity does ini point of fact at this moment counterbalance the advantage from the cheapness of labour ? — Certainty it does ; one cannot but be surprised that more capital does iv)t flow from England, ip consequence of the low wages of labour in Ireland ; but we see that it does not Of)yi in fast, and we may therefore most certainly infer that the in^curity has a very powerful effect. 3340. It has been su^sted by some persons, that emigration is unnecessary as «iiy redundant portion of the population could be more conveniently, more satis- factorily, and morenperpctually located on waste lands in this country ; have you ever turned your attention to that subject ?— Yes ; I should say that I differ entirely from that view of the . subject, because, although the tenants that were at first ieuipl^ed might be toleirably well off, yet their children would greatly aggravate .the e* intended to be remedied, and after a short time there would be a much greater redundancy of population than before. ' 334 <• Among other effects of resorting to a soil inferior to any now in cultiva- tion, which is involved in the proposition of cultivating waste lands, would not otie ^e, to raise the rents of all the landlords throughout Great Britain and Ireland ? — I think not. The cultivating of poor lands is not the cause of the rise of rents ; the rise of the price of produce compared with the costs of production, which is thti cause of the rise of rents, takes place first, and then such rise induces the cultivation of the poorer land. That is the doctrine I originally stated, and I believe it to be true ; it was altered by others afterwards. _ 3342. If the cultivation of poor lands is undertaken lilR^^ '^or the purpose of employing the people, must not such a speculation necessarily end in failure ? — I tnink it would end in failure, and in aggravating the difficulties arising from over- {>opuktion. n 3343- What is your own opinion of the effect on the lower orders, on employing them on public works w ith public money ? — I think it relieves them for a short time, but leaves them afterwards in a condition worse than before. 3344. Have the goodness to explain that operation ? — It has a tendency to ipdu'ce them to marry earlier, and it enables them at first to support their children ; but when the work ceases, they are left in a more destitute condition than before. It is always an unfavourable thing for the labouring classes to have a great stimulus applied to them for a time, and then to have that stimulus withdrawn. '3345. What U, in jjour opinion, the effect of introducing employment for the people through the means of bounties, namely, by creating capital bjr the influence of bounties to be used in undertakings not heretofore carried on, such as fisheries?— I think, generally speaking, bounties are bad. . 3346. Doies the employment of the people actually, upon the whole, produce any benefit tathe labouring cj^s ? — It might. for a time, no doubt, to a particular part of it; but, in all probability, not to the whole class, or permanently. 3347. Woulil not the money expended in employing it, be merely a t^ni>fer froip 550*. Ss one Her. r. R. MaUhu. 6 May, 1897. "\ /'' '^s".^^ ; hausted ? — The exhaustion, to the extent of occasioning some poverty, might not be very remote, if the new country were contiguous. 3353.. Admitting that to be the case, the only distinction between this case and that of the supposed condition, is the separation of that^fertile land from the mother country ? — Yes, but that is a very important difference. 3353' II^ is an important difference, inasmuch as it renders the means of disper- sion so difficult, as to prevent an analogy between the two suppositions? — It pre- vents the emigration of persons with considerable capitals; if those provinces were contiguous, a vast number of persons with large capitals would immediately go. 3354- If it could be shown that the expense involved in emigration, so far from being thrown away, was capable of being replaced, would not pauperism be effec- tually discouraged in this country, until there was no room for absorbing any redun- dant population that might exist ? — If the emigration could be made as easy in the one case as in the other ; but it appears impossible to make it as easy as if the province were contiguous. .3355- Supposing it admitted tiiat the expense is not an outilay without a returq, and that the means of removing progressively the redundant population exist, by having shipping enough for the purpose ; under these two conditions, is Uiere not an effectual remedy afforded against the existence of permanent pauperism amongst those classes of the community who are able to work, but are incapable of finding employment ? — ^There is a very considerable alleviation afforded ; but people will suffer a good deal of poverty in tKeir own country before they will consent tQ emigrate to a distant province, though they would not suffer that poverty if tb^ province were contiguous. 3356. In point of fact, therefore, it would be an indisposition in the pauper labourer to avail himself of that means of remedy, rather than any difficulty of its being applied, which would prevent the proposition being universally true ?— Yes, on the supposition of the question of expense being set aside. 3357. Mutt not the means of defraying the expense of removal be raised oh some better security than the capability of repayment? — I should think so. 3358. Let a case be supposed of a parish in England, where there are a hundred able-bodied labourers and their families who have or are presuoied to have a legal claim upon the parish rates ; the Committee have had it in evidence, that a man, bis wife and three children are not to be supported for less than 25/. per annum ; supposing a parish to have the means afforded to it of charging its rates foi* tec years with an annuity of 10/. a year, upon which annuity a sum may be raised sufficient to remove by emigration those redundant labourers, the immediate effect would be the reduction of the rates of that parish from 25 /. to 10/. per family j supposing the vacuum to be filled up under such a given state of circumstances, the parish might not only incur the annuity expense, but the same degree of expense from the continuing a redundant population ; but supposing that not to occur, do you not suppoae that the parish would be fully justified in respect of interest, io contributing its fund in that way ? — I think $0, most certainly, if the vacancy were not filled up within the ten years. 3359. Although this proposition be true with respect to England, where the pa- rochial rate exists, and where the injury arising from the presence* of this extra labour is manifest and concentrated, must it not be equally true both with rftlqicc| to Ireland and Scotland, as far as the general interest of the nation is concerned ?— I think so. *. 3360. Therefore ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 323 ' 3360. Therefore if a national tax were resorted to for the purpose, under all the circumstances contemplated, of preventing the probability of the vacuum being filled up, are you of opinion that such national tax would be justified in respect to its object? — Quite justified. 3361. While the Pi )r Laws exist in their present state in England, is tliere such check here ? — There i some check, from the difficulty of getting houses, and it is exactly in that way that the poor-laws, to a certain degree, counteract their natural tendency to increase the population ; *hey certainly do dispose many landlords not to build upon their estates, and therefore they do counteract, in some degree, their first obvious tendency. 3363. When the vicious practice prevails, of paying house-rents out oi poors rates, that tends the otlier way ? — Yes. 3363. Speaking generally, are you not of opinion that all further improvements in the administration of the poor-laws may be much more practical after the intro- duction of the system of emigration, than they are at the present moment ? — Yes, I think they might be so, certainly, particularly if it is supposed that the vacuum is not filled up ; in that case, I have not the least doubt that every thing would be very much improved. 3364. Supposing it were admitted for the sake of argument, that an able-bodied labourer in England was not entitled under the letter of the law to receive parochial assistance, would not the withholding that assistance from him, under the circum- stances under which the population has been forced and produced, be a very harsh measure at present? — I think it would. 3365. Should you consider it a harsh measure, after it was once demonstrated that an able-bodied labourer, who did not find labour in this country, might be em- ployed in the colony, where be might become an independent possessor of land ? — !No, I think that would remove the hardship. 3366. Have any means occurred to you of checking the tendency to multiply the number of houses and tenements generally ? — I have never particularly considered the subject ; but I saw in the report a suggestion, which does not appear to me to be a bad .one, that of imposing a tax on the landlord who builds a cottage on his land ; I do not know what might be the objections to it, but on general principles I should be inclined to be favourable to it. 33^7. Would the check be considerable, of making the landlord in all cases answerable for taxes, whether local, or general, failing the ability of the occupier to pay them ? — I think that might be one of the modes ; there is no saying how far particular objections might occur, but some mode of that kind, I think, might be very useful. 3368. Are you not of opinion that if any mode can be devised, it would be one of the most salutary modes of checking population, to render more difiicult to the ppor the possession of tenements r— I think it would ; particularly, because it would tend to prevent too early marriages. 3369. Do you think that any improvements, in detail, can be carried into effect with respect to the Poor Laws, that will remedy the present evils admitted to flow from that state of the law, unless an enactment be ultimately passed, depriving the pauper of a right to claim assistance under the circumstances of his not being able ^o find employment? — No, I think that is absolutely necessary, and that no essen- tial improvement can take place without the denial of a legal claim. 3370. Do you think that improvement can be practically introduced until a renedy is supplied to the pauper, by showing him that he can be placed under circumstances of independence in another country ? — I think that it would be a veiy faarsii measure suddenly to apply such a law to a poor man, without opening to him some way of improving himself. 3371. If the principle were to be introduced among the lower classes, which more or less operates among the higher classes through all grades, from the poor up to the naost wealthy, of not mariying without the means of providing fot a family, you w^uld admit that would be, the best security for preventing a redundancy d population ?-^Nd doubt;, the prevalence of that principle would be the best possible security that could he obtained. ' 3372. Do you not agree that every pains should be taken to impress upon the diinds of the poor, that it is their duty to attend to that circumstance at the period of .tl^ir marrying and settling? — I think that all possible pains ought to be taken to uppress that truth upon tfieir roiad.8, fts a truth that roost esaentiuly concoms tlteir welfare. 350. ' , S s 2 3373- Are ' ( 1 Rfv. T.K.Mkltiut. 6 M«y, 18S7. \ \v- .< ■tT Rev. T. R. Maltkut. S M«y, 1837. V '1 ' ,,'p " Wv H I 324 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 3373. Are you not of opinion that it is a principle which is practically operative in other classes of society, more particularly anion;; those in the next class to the poor ? — Yes ; and it operates also among the poor themselves in a degree ; it operates among the labouring classes with more force in some countries than in others. 3374. Are you not of opinion that much which concerns the happiness and interests of the poor might be produced by disseminating among them explanations of their real position, couched m such language as they might perfectly understand? —I think that such explanations might be extremely beneficial to them. 3375. Do you not admit that if it could be once impressed upon their minds, that it was their duty not to put themselves in a situation to produce a family before they had the means of supporting it, any idea of harshness involved in the refusal of pecuniary assistance to an unemployed labourer would be done away ? —I thinks in a great measure. 3376. And under such e state of things, would not the resource of emigration removie any practical objections to that fundamental alteration of the Poor Law» here suggested ?— I think it would. -7. 3377. If cheap tracts were written and given to the poor, and in soine instanced taught in the schools, explaining the doctrines you have just laid down with respect to the condition of the poor, do you imagine they would be able to understand them, and that they would apply what they learned to their own case ? — I think they are not very difficult to be understood, but they are perhaps rather difficult • to' apply. I believe some tracts of that kind have been occasionally circulated. 3378. Have you any knowledge of the effects produced ? — I have understood that many of the labouring classes, particularly the artisans, acknowledge the doo trines which have been laid down on the subject of population. 3379. Can you form any opinion as to what extent of the population of Ireland ought to be removed, in order to produce' any very material effect on the comforts of the remainder? — It is very difficult to form any precise opinion upon that subject; one does not know the proportion of the population that is actually unemployed. 3380. Supposing that by any means half a million of the population of Ireland could be suddenly removed, do you not think that there is in the existing state of things a strong natural tendency to fill Up the vacuum ? — No doubt there is always a very strong tendency to fill up the vacuum ; and you might even encourage a greater proportion of births by an emigration, unless it were accompanied by some aieasures of the kind before referred to. 3381. Do you not think that any sudden subtraction of such an amount of the population of Ireland would - matierially increase the rate at which population is now advancing, whatever that rate may be ? — It will all depend upon whetlier you can accompany that emigration of the 500,000 people with the measures which have been referred to ; then I do not think it would. - 3382. Do you not think, as a general proposition, that every system of emigration from any country must be ultimately inetlectual, unless accompanied by some mea- sure that will more or less counteract the natural tendency that exists in all society to fill up the vacuum so artificially created ? — If without any pressure with regard to expense you could effect a constant emigration to a large extent, you would no doubt keep the population in a better state ; but if such a current of emigration were to stop at any time, you would have a still greater tendency to a redundancy. 3383. Did not the system of conscription that prevailed in France throughout the whole of the Revolutionary war, practically amount to a system of emigration? -^To a considerable degree it did. ; 3384. Did it in the result diminish the population of France? — It certaihly did not. 3385. From the experience you have had of the effects of famines at different periods, has the period been long before the vacuum has been filled up in those countries in which those famines took placer — Not long, certainly. ^ - 3386. Can you state any cases or refer to authorities upon that subject ?-^There is one case I have referred to in regard to Prussia, where a very great pestilence occurred, and \.'here a very rapid increase of population took place immediately afterwards; I dp not recollect exactly the number of years it took. to fill op the void, but il was not long. In this case the effects of the great mortality OR the subsequent births deaths and marriages di!>tinctly appear in £e lists, arid are rerj remarkable, ^ -tr - 3387. Yon ^. ":4 . certail% ON EMIGRATION FROM' THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 335 . 33i^7. You cunsider that tlie actual number of the people ii^Irclondat pres^'ntis about seven millions and a halt? — I conceive so, according to the rate of increase that took place in the twenty-nine years, from 1792 to 1821. 3388. If that is the case, taking into consideration the tendency that this popu- lation has to increase at present, do you conceive that the emigrating of halt a million would produce any vei^ sensible effect on the condition of the remainder ? — It is impossible to say what efiect ; but 1 think it would still produce a very sensible effect, aud that it would be very beneficial if accompanied by the measures before referred to. ' . 3389. You have already stated that the abstraction of a certain number of the population is necessary to facilitate the introduction of capital ; may it not follow as ^ consequence of emigration, that even if the vacuum were to be filled up, there might be a demand for the services of those children that might be born, whereas there was no demand for the services of those emigrants who were removed ?— It mi^ht be so, certoinljr, if from the increased quiet and security occasioned by the emigration, more capital had in the meantime flowed into Ireland. 3390. But under any circumstAnces, would not the expense of maintaining those children be a much less national tax, for a series of years, than the maintenance of persons who had arrived at maturity ? — For a certain period ; but wc know from eiperience, that when part of the population of a country has been removed hy any cause whatever, the country after a time becomes quite as populous as before, if no , new cause operates to prevent it. 3391. Let it be supposed, that in all cases where a country is to be relieved from the presence of its extra population, the cottages were destroyed of the emigrants who might be removed; do you not consider that alone would operate as a very substantive check a^inst the increase of the population? — It would certainly operate as a substantive check ; but it would not tell much if the landlords were not in some way or other induced to prevent building afresh. . ^392. The question meant to imply, that the landlords would resist the intro- duction of a fresh population upon their land ? — ^Then I think it would. 3393- ^o you not consider that one of the most efficient checks against the re- {^acement of the population abstracted by the emigration from Ireland, would be the growing conviction on the part of all classes of the community, that much of the. evils incident to that country arise from its excessive state of population? — I think so. 3394. To which do you conceive the principle of emigration is of most impor- tance at*present, to England, to Scotland, or to Ireland ? — Unquestionably to Ireland. 3395- Do not you think that opening a vent for the population of England and Scotland might in the end be nugatory, if it is left open to Ireland to supply the vacuum that may be so created in England and in Scotland ? — I think it really would be nugatory. , 33gf). Do not you think there is a tendency in the population of Ireland to flow to, England aod Scotland as a place is left vacant for them ? — I think there is a strong tendency. , 3397. Do not you tl|ink that they may be able to supply the places which are left vacant in England and Scotland, and yet the population of Ireland remain undi- minished ?-rCertainly. 3398. Notwithstanding the strongest artificial checks, is not the natural tendency of population predominant to unstrip the means of subsistence in any country r — No doubt such is the natural tendency of population to increase, that it has the power of outstripping the subsistence of any country. .3399. And at last the limit to it is the miniaun of sustenance by which human life can be maintained i — Unless the reaching of that minimum is prevented by pru- dence, which it would be, in a certain degree, in most countries. 3400. Is not a great moral degradation a stimulus to population? — A very great stynulus to early marriages, but their efl'ect on the population is often coun^ teracfnPlty, premature mortality ; there are some countries where there is a large proportion of births and a large proportion of deaths at the san^e time, and therefore there the population may be stationary. 3401. In- the. case of Ireland at present, one of the great evils is that state of moral degradation i — It is, undoubtedly. 3402. That state is increasing daily, is it not?~It appears to be increasing daily. ; ; 55Q. S s 3 3403. The T. R. Maltkui. 5 May, 18,17. i J I 326 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE iV ,''1 / «; n«v. r. R. Ualtku i May, 1827. 3403. The only lyode of diminishing that moral degradation woaid be to im- prove the comforts of the people 1 — Ye.i ; if by raising Uieir respectability you can inspire them with a taste for comforts, after they have had the means of experiencing tiiose comforts for a short time, by the removal of the redundant population. 3404. The removal of a portion of the population of Ireland, instead of increasing their tendency to population, might diminish it, by improving their moral habits? — • It might, ceitainly, on the supposition of their moral habits being improved. 3405. Do you not think that the poor-rates in England have operated to pre- vent that degradation ? — ^They have operated in two ways ; they have operated to prevent extreme poverty ; but they have had a very bod effect on the morals of the people in other respects, particularly of late years, since they have been so muob extended. 3406. Do you not consider that the accidental circumstance of wheat being the staple food of the poor in this country, has furnished the principal distinction between the people of the two countries f — I think it has constituted a main cause. 3407. In order to improve the comforts of the people in Ireland, is it not essen- tially necessary that the average rates i^ wages should be increased ? — No doubt. 3408. Tbat difficulty being got over, must it not also happen, that even though possessed of more wages, their habits must change also, to apply also in the way of being attended with an increase of comfort ? — Just so. 3409. Is it not true, that in some countries, the people having the means of improving their comforts, do not avail themselves of ttem, but continue in the same . state of moral degradation ; whereas in others, from applying them to the increase of comforts, they increase their civilization and happiness ? — Yes, no doubt ; there is a great ^difference in tiie mode of employing what may be called high wages, as I have stated very decidedly in my Principles of Political Ecmomy. , 3410. Have you illustrated your opinion by referring to the people of Ireland and of Englaftd ?— Yes. 341 1. In your opinion, do the characters of the people of those countries show how great Ei distinction there may be in their habit of applying the means of ioi'' proving themselves, or throwing away those means ? — Yes. At Uie time of the intro- duction of the potatoe into Ireland, the Irish people were in a very low and de- graded state, and the increased quantity of food was only applied to increase the population. But when our wages of labour in wheat were high in the early part of the last century, it did not appear that they were employed merely in the mainte- nance of more families, but in improving the condition of the people in their general mode of living. • 3412. And in surrounding themselves with those comforts which raised that ciasa above those, who are universally depressed in Ireland .''■—Yes. 3413. You attribute the difference of the character of the people to the differ- ence of food ? — In a great measure. - 3414. What circumstance determines the difference of food in the two countries? -r-The circumstances are partly physical and partiy moral ; it will depend, in a cer- tain degree, upon the soil and climate, whether the people live on maize, wheat, oats, potatoes, or meat. 3415. Is not the selection in some degree dependent op the general state of society ? — Very much on moral causes ; ou their being in so respectable a situation^ that they are in the habit of looking; forward and exercising a certain degree o^ , prudence ; and there is no doubt tliat in different countries this kind of prudence is exercised in very different degrees. . 3416. Does it depend at all on the government under which they live ?— Very much on the government ; on the striSt and equal administration of justice ; on tb^ perfect security of property ; on civil, religious and political liberty ; for, people respect themselves more under favourable circumstances of this kind, and are less inclined to marry, with the prospect of more physical sustenance for their children. 3417. On the degree of respect with which they are treated by their superiora I — Yes ; one of the greatest faults in Ireland is, that the labouring classes ^are are not treated with proper respect by their superiors ; they are treated as if ^!|^ wer» a degraded people. , 3418. Does not that treatment plainly arise from their existing in such redun* dancy as to be nO object to thei^ superiors ? — In part it does perhaps ; but it ap- peared to take place before that was the case, lO the same, degree. . 3419. The number being the cause of their treatment, will not their treati^ent tend to the increase of that number ? — Yes ; they act and re-act on each other. ' ■ — ^ ••-..' , . ;. ■• • 343i^.' ,I& \4 r£E: e to im* you can erienciog Ml. ocreasing wbiU?— d. i to pre- ierat«l to als of the I somuoh being the listinction in cause, not esaen* i doubt, an thougb n the way means of I the same . i increase t ; there i« wages, as of Ireland tries shoiv ins of im' ftheintro' iw and de> icrease tb« fly part of le mainte- eir general 1 that class the differ* countries? i, in a cer- ize, wheat, al state of a utuatioiH degree o^.. )rudence is ve ?— -Very ce ; on th* for, people nd are less ? children, iperiors ? — tere are wj^wer* uch redun* but it jap- r tretti^ent h other. 3430. la ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOid: 1837. 3^7 if that in the 179a, who* the of impression that in ttie year 179a, wnea the population Ireland was four millions, ihe condition of tlie peasantry was better thiiii now, h hen the population i:« seven millions ? — I am not competent to answer timt question : I think it very likely there might not be much diA'erencc. 3431. You liave stated, that any attempt to diminish any portion of the labouring population of England or Scotland, without at the same time endeavouring tu diminish the numl)cr of poor in Ireland, would be comparatively incA'cctual ; have you considered the particular case of the hand-loom weavers of Scotland and England, the demand for whose labour has been displaced by a sudden improve- ment in the power-loom machinery ? —Yes, I have, to a certain degree; but I think it still probable that if that snrplus number of labourers were removed, tnere would be competitors from Ireland. 3433. Though that migh: be t'le ultimate effect, yet as a question of immediate relief to an evil pressing in its nature, might it not be wise, by emigration, to remove a portion of the hand-loom weavers now out of employment, for whose labour there is no demand in any branch of Jiroduciive industry in this country ? — I think it certainly might be desirable and 4pantageous. 3433.. Do you not think that, considering the circumstance of its being an ad- mitted fact, that those parties, if not removed by emigration, must either perish or be sustained by charity, their removal by emigration may be considered as a salu- tary measure ? — I think it may be considered a salutary measure. 3424. So salutary as to be considered a national object? — Yes, I think so salutary as to be considered a national object. 3435. What do you consider the amount of the population of England to be?— It is always uncertain, except at the period of a census. I should think that the population of England, Scotland, and Wales now was about fifteen millions and a half. 3436. What should you say that the population of England alone was ?— The population of England and Wales alone would he about thirteen miljions three hundred thousands. 3437. At what rate of increase do you conceive the English population has been going on ?— I think the English population has been going on very rapidly indeed. In the interval between 1811 and 1821, it appears that the rate of increase waa such as would double the population in about forty-eight years. 343^. When you state that the rate of increase has been such as to double in forty years in Ireland, that has been upon the rate of twenty-nine years ? — Yes, taking the numbers as they have been stated ; I do not know how to correct them, but taking them as they are, the rate at which the population increased from 1 79a to 1821, was such as would double itself in about forty years. 3429. Would you not suppose that with regard to Ireland, 'the population has increased in the latter part of that period faster than in the first part ? — Probably it has. 3430. Is there not a tendency in the population of Ireland to iitcrease faster than the population of England ?— >Certainly ; and from the time of the first enumeration of the population of Ireland by South, in 1695, it appears that the population of Ireland has increased for a long time together at a very rapid rate. In other Eu- ropean countries, the population has often increased for ten, twenty, or thirty years, a very rapid rate ; but in Ireland it increased, for 1 25 years together, at a rate that would double itself in about forty -five years. 3431. A period might possibly arrive when the population of Ireland would equal the population of England P — It might. 3433. Might not at that period every labourer in Ireland be in a state of com- petent prosperity, supposing the supply of labour to be proportioned to the demand ? —Certainly. 3433' What is your opinion of the capability of Ireland to become a very rich and flourishing country? — My opinion is, that it has vfry great capabilities, that it inigh^)H|a very rich and a very prosperous country, and that it might be richer in proporti^ than England, from its greater natural capabilities. 3434- Do you think any one circumstance would more tead to accelerate that state of things, than a judicious system of emigration put into force in that country ? ' —I think that a judicious syst«sffl of emigration is one of the most powerful means to accomplish that object. nav. T. R. Maltku. i8i7. '0 J /.: ^/j ^b. % KW 550. Ss4 m- If 338 MINUfES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE •i^ AUxatuttr Nimmo, Esq. 8 May, 1W7. ii ' .. : Martis, &• die Maii, 1827. ,,» R. J. WILMOT HORTON, ESQUIRE, K .i • ■ IN THE CHAIR. Alexander Nimrno, Esq. called in, and Examined. 3435. ARE you acquainted with any districts of waste land in Ireland, which at present are in too unimproved a state to invite their cultivation by individual capitalists, but which, if certain leading improvements were made in them, miglit be made sufficiently good to justify the embarkation of private capital upon them ? — The extensive bog districts of the West of Ireland have already had a great step I sary? — 1 could give a complete answer to that question, if I am allowed to ask Lord Puhnerston, because his lordship made up the account of the whole expense; but I believeitdid not stand his Lordship, fpr cultivation, in more than about 7 /. an English acre, and for that he has a crop which is worth something. 3443. What could a tenanl^ fairly affoi-d to give for that land r — I an^tioj put^ fectly aware what he will get, hut the ordinary run for good dry land is th^i€ about 30«. an acre ; I should expect he will get full as much for the other ; at least the people have shown a great anxiety tu get possession of it, and several of them bave^ since the success of the original measure has been shown to them, applied to bim to take portions of the bog land out of the farm and tultivate them, and then they -'.-will take them back at the sjfU^'rent. ' ' 3444. What is the depth of the bog ? — It runs from about four feet to about twelve pr(ifteen feet. » . 3445- >^«t ''- • * ♦ ♦ %;;♦ [TEE nd, which individual em, migiit K>n them ? , great step nt; within cultivation n that the rliament is iwofiei-ty. The great ire not so the appro- e are also ) be given ; B improve- Bit purpose sr- -There ! objections tal, become first year;r- st summer, 6 had very as on any I under my Iktely b^en 50 acres ; is below nd the part ceives that ve have an thin about particular y originally the claims, nants tha| . lose claims, cultivated per acre if I am )unt of the )n, in more something. ti^p} peiv th4ire about It least the them bave^ led to bim then they i)Out twelve 445. W^hat ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSay. 3J9 3445. What is the nature of the turf upon it ; does it produce red or white ashes? — The majority of that pait of it produces red ashc$, but 1 do not look upon that as of much consequence ; if it was the sole manure, it would be very important. 3446. Do you bring soil down from the adjoining heights ? — Nothing but sand for manure, and that not to any great extent. 3447. You have stated, that, mcluding all the expense which has been incurred in bringing this land from a state of waste bog to a state of preparation for imme- diate cultivation, it has amounted to the sum of 7/. per acre? — I think so. 3448. Are you of opinion that, taking the average of Irish bogs, and supposing (be same facilities in removing the ditficuhies as to the tenure to be atforded, thai the same profitable return upon the capital employed would take place, which you have described in this particular instance, namely, that there would be a probability of receiving a rent of 3" jpon an acre previou.sly valueless, and which has only cost the sum of 7 /. in effecting its progressive improvement?— I think you could not reckon upon that in tlie great bogs of Ireland, because one chief cause of the great price that would be given for the land I (|^e mentioned, is, the district being so thickly peopled, and the great want of lancnn the immediate vicinity. 3449. Is not that generally the case throughout Ireland ? — It would not be the case in the great bog lands of Erris or Conamara ,- I tl'.iiik it would be the case in the bog of Allen and all the interior ; but the sea-coast bogs are, in my opinio n by far the most improvable. 3450. In what state of improvement would that bog be, when you consider it would be right to subject it to a rent of 3o«. an acrcP—I do not think that Lord Palmerston will let it till there have been about three years crops taken ; 4>ut I am of opinion that, supposing the first year's produce does not pay, the second and third years produce will pay for themselves. .' ,/ 3451. And that every thing beyond that will be pure gain?— Yea. 3452. Do you think there would be any disposition on the part of proprietors having interest in large masses of waste land of this description, to consent to give up their right for the purpose of regaining possession of the property when improved, upon certain terms? — I should think they would be very happy to do it. 3453. Is it not the fact, that the nature of the property which individuals have ir, those bogs, is more or less of a similar nature all over Ireland? — Yes, they are much the same. 3454. So that there would be no difUcu'ty in ascertaining the claims of the parties in case of a re-division, after the process of improvement has taken place? — No ; I think you might divide them very much upon the principle of the Inclo- sure Acts of England. 3455. You have referred to very extensive bogs in the district of Conamara ; do you imadine that 1 /. per acre being applied in the reclaiming those bogs upon the most judicious principle, would bring the land into that state of improvement as to command a rent of 20s. an acre? — I think a great deal of it would, because I know that in Conamara, and in certain favoured districts, the people applied to take Und, and offered to rent it at once without any outlay at all being made upon it; it is red bog u{>on granite rock ; but they have &t& manure in the neighbour- hood. 3456. Can you give the Committee any general estimate of the quantity of unreclaimed land in Ireland of this description, which, under an appropriation of capital not exceeding 10/. per acre, might be brought into a state of cultivation f> as to produce a rent of 20«. per acre? — I should think there are about three D illions of Irish acres, that b equul to five millions of English ac'.' could bo applied to bogs, and I have no doubt that companies would be found in England, that would undertake it upon those principles ; all that would be necessary would bo to prevent them from litigation, for whenever the land became valuable it would be immediately litigated. 3460. Have you, in any case, prepared a plan of a Bill to carry into effect such n purpose as this in any district of Ireland ? — 1 drew up, some years ago, a Dill upon the principles of an English Inclosuro Act, for the improvement of about 19,000 Irish acres of the bogs of the ■pthern part of the county of Kerry. I got the consent of a great many proprietors immediately, but one gentleman, who was not thoroughly master of the subject, made a great opposition to it, and the Dill, after a petition having been brought into the House of Commons, was not persevered in ; but I am satisfied that if I were to go back again, and prepare another Bill, that gentleman would be one of the chief promoters of it. 3461. Do you not conceive that the experiment that Lord Pahnerslon has made on his estate, establishes the principle, that private capital applied to reclaiming bog undlr favourable circumstances, would be amply remunerated ? — I think U decidedly establishes that ; I had great doubt before the experiment was made, whether it would do so, because my estimate at the time of the bog surveys was made when agricultural produce was high, and I had great doubt whether m the present depressed times, it would be possible to repay the undertakers so well as at that time, and I was very much pleesed to tind that his Lordship was satisfied that he was undertaking a profitable speculation ; that was not the view with which he engaged in it. 3462. You have stated, that the neighbourhood of calcareous sea sand gives particular facilities in that place ; do you not find, in your experience as to bogs in Ireland, that a great proportion of them are contiguous either to shell san^ or to calcareous manure, even in the interior of the country ? — Yes, almost all the great bogs of Ireland are in the immediate vicinity of calcareous manure. 3463. Are you aware that a great proportion of them have limestone gravel and marl lying contiguous to them ? — That is reported in all the bog surveys as being very extensively the case. 3464. And therefore, not only upon the sea coast and the estuaries are there those advantages, but even in the deep bogs of the interior there is abundance of manure applicable to cultivating the surface of the bog r — No doubt of it. 3465. The bog of Allen is the largest bog in the interior part of Ireland ; does not a great deal of that rest upon a limestone gravel substratum ? — Most of it does. 3466. You have mentioned 7/. as the expense per acre in the case of Lord Palmerston's property, bus not the greater part of that 7/. been applied in the actual remuneration of labour? — The whole of it. 3467. Did you make large open drains r — No, very small drains ; they are all open drains. 3468. Do you go to the bottom of the peat ? — In no case above four feet deep. ' 3469. Does that effect the drainage ? — Completely. 3470. Provided that the difficulties of tenure have been removed, are the Com- mittee to understand that the process is simple and certain as to the effect produced upon the land? — It appears to be so. We had a very intelligent agriculturist employed in carrying on, this work, but such men are abundant in Ireland ; the people themselves know very well what to do, aud when they have a specimen before them, there is no difficulty. 347 1 . What is the average wages of labour that have been paid to the labourers that have been employed in reclaiming Lord Palmerston's bog ? — Ten pence and a shilling a day. 3472. Do you consider that superficial drainage m effectual ? — Quite so, for the purposes of agriculture. u^n.i v . 347a. Will it bear cattle?— Yes, but it takes some time. ■■ - 3474f Are* "■JE M ror ON EMIGRATION FllUM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827- J3i 3474. Are yuu not ovcry now and then obliged to open the tlreins again 'f~~ Yn, they niu»t bo »court«l. ')475- ^^'" '^^ occasion a ^rcat annual expcnie upon that land- — N'cry small indeed. 3476. Ilavo you seen tlic cH'ect of uny complete drainage of bog, by niiiiiing tiie drains into the sub-soil and completely drying the peat? — I liuve seen one ur two •Uempts of that kind, but it is very expensive. I saw lately an operation of Mr. Strickland's, which I wai* very much amused with ; ho has cut an immense druiii, which has pro: ')! 1 33fl MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jtrnri Strkkkiid, i8«7. 34R8. Under the peculiar circumiMncrt of Ireland, auppoting the bog* were drained, would not a redundant population be createti ju*t in the laine manner M to now ii ? — Thv population is at present, even under the circumstance of Ihc e,nM want of capital, increasing h ith a rapidity perhaps nut equalled in any other cuunlry ; I do not think it could increase more rapidly, it more land were created liy the cul> tivation of bogs. 34K9. Your intention is, therefore, that the poor should lie benefited by being cmployeti as labourers in the reclaiming of those bog lands, and in their cultivation after they are reclaimed? — Yes. 3490. Do you mean in their cultivation after they are reclaimed, as lalmurers, or as small farmers occupying sniutl portions?— 1 look upon it that the conditttm both of landlord and tenant will be exceedingly altered by the operation of the late Act of Parliament, and that the facility of subdividing land will be so much diminished, that small farms will not be so common some years hence as they are now ; and if the state of the country generally improves, lar^^e farms will be the consequence, and those bogs will be peculiarly adapted for large grazing farms. 349 1 . Have not the measures that you allude to, been adopted on account of the excess of the population ?— They have. 34(|a. Have not tney established the necessity of discouraging tlie excess of po- pulation ?— Certainly . 3493. Will not such an application of new ground us you detcribc to the purposes of cultivation, afford on the other hand the means of extending the population ? — I think the probability is that it will turn the attention of landed proprietors and of farmers more to the bad system of c\'ltivation that exista in Ireland now, and that probablf large farms will be the consequence. 3494. Do not you think that their attention is turned to that already ?— Certainly not in the parts of the country in which I reside. 3495. Is not there a general disposition among the landlords to turn the small farms into large ones r — I do not think there is in the part of the county I live in. 3496. As you arc aware of the importance of that object, have you been able to accomplish it ? — I am aware of the importance of it, and I have endeavoured to accomplish it so far as it is in my power ; but I am not a proprietor, I am only an agent. 3497. However desirable you may consider the reclaiming of these bogs to be, for the purpose of introducing land into cultivation whicli is now in a state of waste, do you consider that that circumstance at all affects tlie general question as to relieving the redundant part of the population of Ireland by colonial emigration, or in other words do not you imagine that there are quite enough persons out of euu ployment to furnish candidates for emigration, as well as lor employment upon those waste lands ? — I do not ; I think that there is ample employment for the whole of the population fur a long course of years in reclaiming the bogs of Ireland, and I think that the spirit of the gentlemen of the country is such now, that they would prevent the increase of population. It is in the power of the landlords to prevent the increase of population, and they will prevent it; their attention is turned towards it now ; and also we must expect new sources of employment to arise from the introduction of manufactures, and other concomitant circumstances. 3498. What Act of Parliament did you allude to in your former answer ? — The late tenantry Act, the Act against sub-letting. 3499. What is the usual extent of tiie possessions and farms in your part of the country ? — On the grazing land they are often very considerable, but on the common tenantry lands they seldom exceed four or five Irish acres, and descend from that to a rood or to lialf a rood ; many thousand families exist upon half a rood of land attached to a cabin. 3500. You have stated, that you consider the system of having very small farms very injurious both to agriculture and to the state of society r— I do. 3301 . What would you consider to be the smallest sized farms that ought to exist, according tu your view, in that part of the country ? — It is not easy to define the exact size of the farms I would recommend, because that would depend upon the general condition of society in the country ; if the country were brought to the state in which England is now, and to which Scotland is fast approaching, and if manu- factures were to be introduced into the country and ademand for the labour of the population should arise from the establishment of those manufactures, probably the fiyitcm of large farms would be most advisable for cultivation. 35oa<» You GN EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINODOM: iSj? 333 3503. You have tUiied, Umt yuu would rrcommenil an alleration in tlir |ircifiit •xtcntofunallfarnM; look in); at the subject prnrtically, what wtMild Ih< ihcnaturr of the advice that you would give to |)enonii in that fwrt of the rounlry, maiking th«iae altcrutionH in th« pr^Mriit itate of lociety r — All thoMt idtrrationK niunt keep pace with the general Mate of Hociaty in the country ; for the preftent I wmild ricom- mend ai much ai poanible the picvention of nuh-letlinfi, aini to follow on a ntcady regular ayitcin ; and whtrever a piece of land tell out of lease, that it should be given t0 some resident tenant on the land, who already waa cultivating hi» land w ith industry, instead of admitting a stranger upon the land. 3503. Supposing several lots of land, from a rood to an acre each, became out of lease in your part of the country, what advice would you give to the proprietor r — 'Ifie advice I should give would be, to let it to the best resident tenant that he had upon the land, and on no account to let another tenant come u|Kin the land, or to admit another house to be built. 3504. What, under those given circumstances, would be the extent of farm that you would suggest to be allotted to that industrious tenant? —Indefinitely as much M ho chose to take ; I would pursue a regular system, of alluttinf^ to every man that I saw Industrious, as much land as his circumstances would admit of. 3505. Suppose eight or ten families, [>os8essing portions of land from u rood to an acre each, were to vacate them in your part of the country, how would you propose to absorb the labour of those persons in bog lands? — I presume, in the first instance, that Government undertakes some great means of improvement, either in opening the course of rivers, or in opening great drains for thu bogs ; that would in the first instance absorb their labour, and afterwards that labour would be employeij by the capitalist employed in reclaiming the bogs. 3506. You have in fact formed no systematic plan upon tlie subject ? — Certainly not, beyond the systematic increase of tiie size of holdings, and prevention of building new cabins ; further systems must be framed upon the altered circumstances of the country. 3507. You have stated, that in your opinion all the redundant population of Ireland might be employed, fur an indefinite number of years to come, in reclaiming the waste lands of Ireland ; have you contemplated what is to become of that popu< lation when that land is reclaimed, and their iubour is no lon^^er wanted in the pro- cess of reclaiming the land? — I should presume that the condition of those people must be improved when the increase of population is in some degree prevented, and the produce of land is increased. 3,508. There can be no doubt if the state, or corporate bodies, or individuals, wore to advance millions of money for the purpose of bringing the waste lands of Ireland into cultivation, that during the process of their improvement the labouring classes would be uiatenaliy benefited by the wages which they would necessarily receive ; but have you contemplated the situation in which they w ould be placed if that work was ended, and when there was no longer the same degree of demand tor their labour r -I presume that if the capital is profitably employed in reclaiming the bog, it must an least produce food in abundance for the people who have been eni- |iloyed in tiMe reclaiming it ; so far their condition would be improved. 3^00. In what manner would those persons, for whose labour no demand existed, entitle themselves to the food that was produced upon that land?— By the culti- vatioii of that land after it was improved, if no other source of employment should in the meantime arise, which I think very probable. 3510. What is your opinion of the husbandry of Ireland, and the manner in which lands are foroied ?— In the part of Ireland 1 spenk it, there is no regular system of cultivation in practice, the land is chiefly in the hands of small tenants, or of exten- sive graziers. 3511 . Are there not large tracts of land in Ireland at present under cultivation, which tniglit be very much imjiroved by more draining and belter fencing ?■— There are ver extensive tracts. 3,51 ... Do yuu think if it was ar|iiestion how a certain amount of capital should be employed in Ireland,that it would be more beneficial to employ it in endeavouring to prepare the barren bogs of that country for cultivation, or in improving the lands at present under cultivation in the imperfect stote you have just mentioned? — I consider that if any stimulus is to be given, if it were directed in the first instance to the cultivation of the bo^s, it would diffuse itself over the good land, by teaching tiicm a better system of cultivation, and inducing individuals to adopt it. 550- ' T t 3 3)' 3- I'l r. 1 lis ■ •■ 'Jtnati Striekland, 8 Moy, i8s7. 334 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 3513. In point of fact, would a certain sum of money return more profit by being employed in improving the land at present under cultivation, or in improving the barren bogs? — If you admit, according to Mr. Nimmo's evidence, that you can bring bog land from being worth half-a-crown an acre to pay thirty sliillings an acre, I do not think you could make that difference in the price of any cultivated land. 3514. Did you ever calculate what sum of mopey might be necessary to put the land of Ireland into the same state, with re^prd to fencing and other improvements, as the land of England is in ? — I am not prepared to say. 3515. Have you ever seen the statement made by Mr. Arthur Young, in his work on Ireland P — I have read it, but I have not a correct recollection of it. 3516. How much, in your opinion, would it require on farms, generally speaking, in Ireland, to provide proper farming buildings, and proper fences, gates and drainages, with reference to the ordinary quality of arable land P— I have made thosa calculations, but I have not them upon my memory at present. 3517. Could it be done for 7/. an acre? — I should think for very consideraby less. 3518. What do you suppose would be the cost?- -I am not prepared to answer that question ; it is a calculation which I went into some years ago as a matter of speculation, but 1 have never had an opportunity of applying it. 3519. Is not there a general want of capital amongst the farmers in Ireland ? — They are without capital, except the graziers ; there are extensive graziers that are exceedingly rich men. 3520. Then, in point of fact, as to farm buildings, fences, drainages, and intro- ducing a proper system of crops, all that is yet to be done in Ireland ? — All that is yet to be done in Ireland, in the part I am in. 3521. Have you any return of the actual expense, and the profit to be derived from improving the quality of the better soils, on English principles of agriculture, by dividing and draining and erecting farm buildings ? — None ; in Ireland I hav6 never had an opportunity of trying it 3522. Are you of opinion that in case a proprietor whose land falls out of lease, and who has had an opportunity of getting rid, upon the principle you have described, of his extra tenantry, that that proprietor will materially increase his annual recei|)t of r^nts by the operation of such a change ; you will understand this question as applying only to lands where the landlord and tenant are in immediate connection? — At the present moment I believe he would lose rent. If merely the number of tenf.nts that were necessary for the cultivation of the land upon an im- proved principle were left upon it, and all the rest were removed, in the first instance the landlord would lose rent. The small tenantry in Ireland pay more rent than any regular farmer would pay ; and they pay it, not out of the produce of the land, but out of the produce of their labour in England. There is an unnatural rent paid to the landlords in the part of the country I am in, which is not derived from the pro- duce of the land, and if those men were now removed the landlord would lose rent. 3523. Although that observation may be perfectly true in particular instances, it is presumed that it does not apply generally? — Undoubtedly not; I speak merely as far as my own knowledge goes ; that certainly does exist over a great part of the coimties of Mayo, Roscommon and Galway. 3524. The (Committee are to understand, that in those counties it is the almost universal habit of the poor class of labourers to migrate into England for the purpose of obtaining wages during harvests ? — It is, and they bring from England money to pay rent for land far beyond the real value of that land, and they actually pay that rent. 3525. Are the rents paid with punctuality? — They are ; those common tenantry will pay to middle*men twenty shillings, thirty shillings, and even forty shillings per acre for the privilege of building a cabin upon the skirts of a bog, and cultivating the bog, themselves earning the rent by their labour in England. 3526. And subsisting upon the fruits of the cultivation of that bog?^ — Yes. 3527. Does not that practice present great obstruction to the improvements you contemplate ? — In the district immediately under my own observation it would not, because I know few, if any instances, of the hog being given to the tenant; there is an express reservation in the lease, of all bogs and turbary ; as far as my expe- rience goes I know it does exist in other places. 3528. Would not the circumstance of those very small occupants paying a great deal more rent than the larger farmers would pay to their landlords, operate very materially to obstruct a change in the system ?— Under the late circumstances of Ireland Hi i't "S ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 335 Ireland certainly ; but the late Tenantry Act empowers the landlord to prevent their Jtrrard SfrickhnJ, under-letting ; it may now be stopped, and in future that difficulty will be gradually removed. 3539. Then he prevents it by a present loss of income ? — Yes, if done too suddenly. 3530. Would not that rather operate as an obstruction to the improvement? — Certainly, until the population arc prevented from under-letting land lo each other. 353 1 . Has not the practice of letting to small tenants been the practice of the middle-men, not of the landlords? — Certainly, but letting to middle men has been very general over that part of the country ; 1 look upon that to be the great cause of the increase of population over the whole of that district. Every young lad arriving at the age of 1 9 or 20, marries, and immediately builds a little cabin upon the skirt of a bog ; he plants himself there, he rents a rood or two roods of land, which is sufficient to produce potatoes for his food, and he goes to England as soon as his potatoes are set, and he brings back from 3 to 6 guineas, with which he pays his rent, and provides liimself with other necessaries. 3532. Then in point of fact, are not the Committee to understand that those persons, though resident for a portion of the year in Ireland, derive the main part of their subsistence from England, to the prejudice of the English labourers? — Dis- tinctly so ; the landlords of Ireland derive rent from their tenants, in consequence of that aimual migration to England, beyond the value of the production of the land. 353.1- Although you state that it is under the operation of the system of middle- men that this arrangement of property has taken place, are you not of opinion that it would be equally to the interest of the landlord, if he were in immediate relation to the sub-tenant, instead of the middle-niun ? — Certainly ; he is in many cases in that immediate relation with the sub-tenant, for when the middle-man has surren- dered the land, or his lease is expired, the landlord has generally let the land to the existing tenants, and they have offered a higlier rent for the land, probably, than an English farmer would give for it, in the contemplation of being able to place their children there, or to take in additional tenants in the manner mentioned above by middle-men. 3534. Supposing the agricultural capital of Ireland were to increase considerably so that the farmers holding from 30 to 40 acres and upwards had sufficient capital to cultivate their land upon an improved system, would not they be able to pay a higher rate of rent than the description of poor labourers you have just been describing? — If the system of large farms were established in Ireland, it would require an outlay on the part of the landlord, or of the tenant, for the erection of buildings and offices for carrying on the cultivation, and I believe that the net rent received by the landlord, after the payment for the buildings, would not Le greater than it is now ; but a very great deal more produce would be raised from the land, which would go to improve the condition of the tenant, and remunerate him for his outlay of capital, and for his skill ; the land would produce a great deal more than it does now. 3535- Under the circumstance of an increased capital, either in the possession of the landlord and applied by him for the farmer, or in the possession of the farmer, would it not, upon the whole, be more profitable to the landlord to deal with thos6 farmers, than to deal with the description of occupiers with which the landlord is now dealing? — Undoubtedly more produce would be raised from the land, and the landlord and the whole country would be gainers. 3536. Then, on the whole, is not the real remedy which is to be looked to in order to produce the general improvement of the country, altogether confined to the simple circumstance of an increase of the agricultural capital of the country ? — I believe that that must be accompanied by capital disposed of in other ways ; I doubt whether agricultural capital could be much increased, till there is an imme- diate demand created in the neighbourhood by the establishment of manufactures and other concomitant circumstances. The whole condition of the country must improve, in order to raise the agricultural part of society from the low condition in which it is. 3537* The question went rather to the effect of capital when acquired, than to the means of acquiring it? — Capital exists in the unemployed liands of the popular tion ; it requires only to be called into action by some such stimulus as Scotland received a few years ego, or by a change in the political circumstances of the country. When once set ip motion, capital will generate capital, and find its own channels of employment. •. > - . . •. . 550. Tt4 '^ ' 3538. Uo E«q. 8 May, 18*7. I i iiJ Jtrrard Strickland, E«q. »i .^ I 8 May, 1827. D l»!' 336 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITFEE 3538. Do you find that the small tenants who come to England from Mayo and Roscommon and Galway, seeking labour, always obtain labour in this country?— I believe there are many instances of their suffeiing extreme distress from their not getting labour, but generally, the number that do obtain labour is quite sufiident to encourage numbers to go over every year. 3539- In many years, is not the demand for labour in this country so small, that those persons do not obtain employment? — I find, on the contrary, that the number migrating to England increases every year from the district that I am acquainted with ; and though there are instances of individual distress, generally speakmg, I be- lieve they bring more and more money from England every yeor. 3540. Then, under those circumstances, the only advantage that the proprietor of land in Ireland is likely to derive from emigration, is a better state of society, and more tranquillity in the country ? — Precisely ; and supposing that no sources of employment arise for them in the country, there is one circumstance which may perhaps be stated, as being a matter of fact, a part of those persons come to London every year, and they deposit in the hands of our law agent in London any savings they may have to remit to their families, and in the case of one property those de- !>osit8 have increased, during the eight years I have been in Ireland, from abont bur hundred a year to about ten or twelve hundred a year ; but it is only a small -portion of our migration that comes to London, the greater part go to the fens of Lincolnshire, and they bring the money home with them. 3541. Could you inform the Committee as to the average number of labourers so emigrating from the three counties you have mentioned r— I have no means whatever of doing that. I am now making a list of the population of one property; 'I have gone on to the extent of 23,771 Irish acres, and I find a population of upwards of 1 8,535 souls upon it. 3542. Is that population all agricultural ? — Yes, there is no manufacture except a little linen; this is arable and mountain land, exclusive of deep boss. 3543. Are there any towns or villages included in that ? — The cabms are congre- gated into little villages, but there is nothing in (he shape of towns on the lands over which this enumeration has reached. 3544. You omit all bog in that estimate ? — I omit all red bog, but it includes a great deal of grouse-shooting mountain, over which cattle graze. 3545. Do you exclude any bog fnmi which the subsistence of that population is in part derived ?— I think not ; I think it is all measured, except the red bog. 3546. What is the general character of the buildings and of the furniture in the dwellings ? — The most miserable conceivable ; they have sods or mud cabin with a thatch, as low and bad as it is possible to exist in. 3547. Can you describe to the Committee the character and situation of the people occupymg that district ? — ^Tenants occupying five or six acres of land, live in tolerable comfort ; the houses are built of stone, with a thatched roof ; the miserable state of cabins which I describe is applicable to their under-tenants generally, who are very numerous. 3548. Is not all the ground held by such persons applied to the production of their own food ? — It is. 3549. And they consume the entire of that produce, generally speaking? — When they have only one or two roods or an acre, there is no doubt that they do, and probably more than that, and the rest of their food and their rent is provided for by the money they have earned in England. 3550. Would it not be quite impossible for them to produce any rent out of the ground they actually occupy, inasmuch as they consume all the produce of it i — Distinctly so. 355 1 . Beyond thdt they have to seek some other food, and they have to seek all the means of paying their rent by some extra resource ? — Generally they have land enough to produce potatoes for the food of their family ; I do not think they often spend their earnings in the purchase of food, except in case of failure of crop, or the very smallest holdings. 3552. If means were taken in Scotland and England to make the ingress of Irish labourers into those countries less easy than it now is, what would be the effect of that upon the state of society iii that country ? — Every decrease in the number coming to England each year would add to the probability of starvation in Ireland ; and supposing the egress to be entirely precluded, my opinion is that starvation and failure gif rent wquld be ^he iuiniediate cousequence. .Ch^ -^l. ---.—•■;■ ^^ ■•-..<...;...--- ■ • 3553. Da TFEE Mayo and country ? — m their not e sufiident small, that the number acquainted aking, I be- i proprietor of society, sources of which may e to London any savings ty those de- from abont only a small 1 the fens of of labourers e no means ne property; lopulation of icture except s are congre- le lands over it includes a population is ed bog. niture in the cabin with a jation of the land, live in the miserable nerally, who iroduction of ing? — When hey do, and ovided for by nt out of the uce of it ? — ve to seek all ey have land dk they often re of crop, or \e ingress of 1 be the effect 1 the number n in Ireland ; tarvation and 3553- D» ON EMlGltATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: i8?.7. 337 ~ 3553* Do not you conceive that by the removal of a rcosiderable number of families from an over>peopled farm, an acreable rent of the landlord would neces- sarily rise? — So long as they exist upon the farm, they rintrive, by means to me inexplicable, to pay Sie rent ; but if the extra means are tuk m away, the landlord loses his rent altogether. 3.S54< Would that ground become productive to him by the removal of the poor Amily ?— Certainly, if tlie laud were to be cultivated by a capitalist 3555. Therefore the production of the return to the landlord would be exactly in .proportion to the removal of the families that now consume the produce? — Under the supposition that all external means of paying the rent were taken away, certainly .that would be the case. If the means of earning money in England to pay the rent were taken away from them, they must eat up the whol>> produce of the land, and no rent would remain. 3556. Suppose an estate of a thousand a year, estimated value, were altogether .divided into small portions, which formed the allotments of pauper families, and that :the population on it consumed the entire produce, would not it be altogether unpro* ductive to the landlord, except some other means existed for the payment of the rent than the ground itself? — Certainly. ■ 35.57> In case of those means being withdrawn, it would be more to the interest of tbat proprietor to remove those parties, and place five or six farmers in their stead, than, to retain them ?— Certainly. 3558. Do you not conceive that the most effective remedy for the evil which exists, would be the transfer of a great proportion of this pauper population to some other situation, where they may be rendered comfortable and prosperous? — Cer- tainly, to other situations and employments in Ireland. Jovis, 10* die Mali, 1827. R J. WILMOT HORTON, ESQUIRE, IN THE CHAIR. ■■T>\j Jtrrwd Siriekbmi, ' . ' 8 M.y. 1817. John Letlie Foster, Esq. a Member of the Committee ; further Examined. 3559- WHAT is your opinion with respect to the disposition of the Irish pro- prietors to contribute to any system of emigration ? — I think there are many Irish proprietors who would be disposed to contribute towards the expense of sending away their own tenants ; but I beg to repeat, that I think their disposition would be very much influenced by whatever opinion they miglit form as to the reasonable- ness or unreasonableness of the terms offered to them by Government. 3560. You are aware that it is stated in evidence, that a family of five persons may be removed to the North American Colonies at an expense certainly not exceed- ing 15/.. that is, 3/. per cent; do you think they could be induced to incur the whole of that expense? — I think the principle by which they would be determined would be, a comparison between the expense of the terms proposed by the Government, and the expense st which proprietors are now actually able to accomplish the same object. From my neighbourhood, in the county of Louth, three vessels have sailed during the present spring ; the terms of passage in them were, 4/. los. to New York, and about 2/. lot. to Quebec. Some landlords have assisted individuals in going upon those terms. Now unless the Government should offer such terms as would accomplish some saving to them, they would be as well pleased to attain the end in tbieir own way, by simply giving the money to the individuals. They never would contribute to the Government more than what they should feel and know by experience to be sufficient for the object. . 3561 . The question was intended to be confined to their consenting to the expense of emigration, not under the direction of Government, but to be accomplished in any way in which they could accomplish it? — I know some instances in which proprie- tors are now giving at the rate of 3/. to assist individuals in emigration ; and I wish to add, that many thousand individuals in the county of Louth would most grate- fully accept that amount, upon the terms of immediately employing it in pmg to America, and taking all chances for what might there befal them. A majority of those who have already emigrated froip that part of Ireland in this year, had not each of them so much as i /. in their pocket, after paying for their passage. I have tnade a good deal of inquiry upon the subject. . 3562. Do you mean to our North American Colonies, or to the United States ? «f5o." U u —Their John L. Potter, Eiq. 10 May, i8«7. It I ij V ^ ''\ t h • ■ . Jokn L. Foster, 10 May, 338 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE. — ^Their general preference at prewnt is for New York ; but they are very im- perfectly informed as to the comparative advantages of the different lines of emigni- tion, "nd would be easily cuidcd by advice upon the subject. 3563. You are aware that Mr. Roiiinson, the superintendent of the Irish emi- granU who went out in 1825, is now returned to this country, and he has brought over the most satisfactory account of the prosperity of those emigrants ? — Yes. 3564. It is universally admitted that the prospcnty of those emigrants ariseH frorti the degree of government-asbiiitance they have received, and although they were not called on hy the tern.8 of their location to make any relum, no doubt can exist as to their capability of doing so if such terms were imposed upon them, which it was not thought worth while to impose in the first instance, as the earlier emigration^ were to be considered pui«ly as experiments, in which the emigrant volunteered the chance of failure. Supposing it were to be made known generally throughout Ireland, that any emigri..it, duly approved by the Government, and receiving a ticket of appro* bation, should, on his arrivcl at any port in the colonies, and on the presentation of such ticket, become entitled to a grant of land, and to assistance of the nature that was afforded to the settlers under Mr. Robinson, until a year or a year and a half should elapse, when his own independence might be secured; supposing thwt the different items which this assistance involved were to be explained, their prices, ond all circumstances connected with them, and that the f /nigrant was to makf; himself personally liable, as well as the land which he received, for the payment oi'f interest upon the money advanced after the termination of seven years j thus, for example, if 60/. was the sum necessary for affording the emigrant, who is supposed to have a family consisting of a wife and three children, precisely that character an ' extent of assistance which was sufficient, and only sufficient, to give him -a chanct of obtaining early iuJ.'pendence ; do you think that an Irish pauper emigrant, after all this explanation, would be disposed to bina himself to pay 3/. i2s. per annum at the expiration of seven years, which would be six per cent (the common rate of colonial interest) i\pon the 60/. advanced to him in the first instance, he having the option of paying that sum in money or in monies worth, that is, in tie produce of his farm ? — There can be no doubt whatever of the emigrant's extreme readiness to enter into such an engagement ; it would afford a strong additional stimulus, if such were wanted, to induce him to emigrate ; the 01 \v difficulty of the Government would be, how to deal with the multitude of applications. The peasantry are at this moment quite ready to go, and take all chrnces of what may await them on the other side, if the mere means of passage were afforded ; how much stronger, then, would ba their desire if you superadd the inducements enumerated in the question. 3.565. It has been stated in evidence before this Committee, and has been eon- firmed by all the colonial witnesses without a single exception, that although the progressive demand for labour has in most instances secured advantages to those who have gone over to the colonies without any capital of their own, for Uie purpose of offering their labour, yet, that if the number of those persous were to exceed that average amount which arrives in the colonies from year to year, the inevitable con- sequence would be the depreciation of the wages of labour, and consequent pre> pudice to the interest of the parties so arriving ; do you think, therefore, that there would be any objection in principle to allow persons to make their choice between the two alternatives, either to go out upon their own resources, without any pledg«i of government assistance or claim of demanding it, or, previous to their leaving the mother country, to apply under the sanction of such regulations as might be made for tickets, which would entitle them to this loan upon the terms previously men- tioned?—! iiiink it would be an excellent course ; depend upon it, you will not want for claimants, how many tickets soever you may issue. Further, many thousands of the unsuccessful candidates for tickets will go upon all hazards. ' 3566. Are you of opinion that any machinery could be employed, nrore simpli^ than w hat is suggested in that proposition ? — I possess no information as to the state of society in the colonies, except what I have derived from the proceedings of ihi^ Committee ; as far as Ireland is concerned, the machinery would be very sufficient. 3567. Are you of opinion that under a certain degree of encouragement the tide of emigration from Ireland would flow into the North American colonies, rather ihan into the United Sta'es? — If the enccuragement afforded in the North American colonies should be in fact superior or even equal to that which the United States under existing circumstances afford, the peasantry of Ireland would soon discover it, and they would then prefer Jhe North American colonies ; at present they have a general ^imprassion that the vicinity of New York affords a surer market for their labour. ' 3568. In the earlier' part of your evidence you were asked whether the proprietors • who OW EMKSRATiON FROM THE UNITED KINCtDOM : 1817. 339 Tvho might be iDterested in Emigration would prefer raising the monev fur tlie purpose of aasisting tbc emigrants themselves, or by consenting to an annuity charge upon ttie land, upon which Uiem would be no difficulty in raising the money nccns. 8%ry ?— I tliink the proprietors would prefer advancing the money payment in all CMCS where they are able. 3569. Supposing it were deemed expedient for the Legislature to pass a law eoabling property to be charged with an annuity, for the express purpose of raising » fund for the purpose of assisting the extra tenants upon the several estates to migrate, do you think there would be found any inconvenience in repaying such annuity, so as tq make a transmission of it to this country un»ttended with any com- plication or difficulty r — I should apprehend considerable praciical difficulties in the way of such a plan. I am not aware at present what machinery you contemplate for the collection of the annuity ; I assume that you do not propose it in any case without the ccnsent of the proprietors. 3570. Suppose, without tKc least reference to accuracy as tu the amount, but for the mere purpose of illustrating the principle, that upon an annuity of 1 /. charged upon an estate in Ireland, the sum of 20/. could be raised, such sum of ao/. to be fipplied for the purposes of emigration ; if any county in Ireland were charged with fiool. per annum of those annuities, 4,000/. would be iaised for thai rate of annuity ; are you of opinion that any machinery could be employed within the county, under which those annuities might be levied, and transmitted in one integral sum to this fountry, for the purpose of being applied in liquidation of the interest of such money raised r' — If an annuity were charged upon one or more townlands with such dis- jtinctness as to niake it certain to the collector what land was to be resorted to, die ordinary machinery for the collection of the county rates might be applied, and the nionpy might be transmitted through the county treasurer to the Government ; but j[ must beg to add, that I should apprehend great preliminary difficulties in defining the lands to be charged with the particular annuities. 357 1 . The question supposes the case of proprietors of land who make applicadon to Government to assist in the emigration of *^^heir tenantry ; might not tlie property of those proprietors be distinctly charged w.th this annuity, to be levied in the manner you suggest ? — The tiling may not be impossible, but there are obvious difficulties. You must take caie that A shaU not charge the estate of B in .order to get rid of his, A's tenants ; A must therefore satisfy either the Government or the county that he is the proprietor of the land which he proposes to charge ; now if there is to' be a solicitor to put A upon his proof of title, proprietors will not en- counter either tlie trouble or expense. On the other liand, without some strict in- vestigation, I do not sec how particular lands can be charged with annuities for tlio emigration of particular cottier tenants. 3572. Might not, in this supposed instance of 200/. a-year, the general county /ate be charged to that amount, counter security being taken by the county against tlie individual proprietors whose lands by the terms of the proposition would be- come chargeable for this annuity ? This question is put under the supposition that the county generally would feci it to be to their interest to effisct this removal of the population, although they might object to the county rate being permanently charged with any expense for that purpose ; therefore all that would be asked of them would be to supply the machinery of transmitting to Government the annuity necessary, taking themselves the counter security of the individual property pledged for that payment? — The county machinery would work sufficie° '.y for the purpose of col- lecting the money, if it were once satisfactorily charged ; the whole difficulty would consist in the original charging of the annuity upon the land. The proprietor must satisfy either the Government or the county that he is tlic proprietor of the land he proposes to tax, and he must mark it out by metes and bounds. I will state a case, •iTid not a fanciful one : There is a large townland, which is divided amongst three proprietors in fee, whom we will call A, B, and C. A lives upon his share of the land, and is willing to get rid of a portion of his surplus population ; B is an absentee living in Loudon, who neither knows nor cares any thing about the matter ; and C is a country gentleman mistrustful of your whole proceeding. Here you &ust take icare tliat A shall not for his purposes be allowed to charge the property of B and C ; you must in your machinery affi3rd a security to.B and C against such a result, and you must also afford to the county a security that their officers shall not be engaged in suits with B and C, for attempting to levy the money o£f the land. I will now put another case ""xisting in the adjoining townland : A is the tenant in fee of it ; he has set it for lives renewable for ever to B, who has set it for lives re- newable for ever to C, who has set the half of it for lives renewable for ever to D, .550-, Uu3 and if Juim L. f uifc/v t«,. ^ 10 Ma| )8f7 r J! ii 1 ■' 1 TM 1 M m 340 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J»k» L. Foittr, 10 Mty, i8t7. ■nd the other half of it on determinable leases to a variety of tenants. D hat anin set a portion of his share to S, who has subset to a number of miserable cotmrs. I think this state of facts may suggest to the Committee the danger that any machinery hastily devised might create a geat variety of questions among the persons interested in that townland, and endlees disputes between the occupiers and the collectors of the tax. The difficulty would be greatly enhanced by this circum< stance, that the levy must be made by the county from the occupiers, but the uiti* mate charge must fall upon the individual landlord who grants the annuity. The receipt of the collector must therefore be good in the hands of the tenant agamst such landlord, and against him only. I apprehend the greatest confusion would ensue. 3573. At present, the Committee are considering the distinction between money raised at once for the purposes of emigration, and money charged upon the pro- perty ; would not the objection you have stated apply equally to money raised at once ? — No. I can imagine any of the persons above referred to wishing to get rid of some particular tenant from the portion of land in which he was immediately interested, and willing at the same time to contribute a small sum of money once or all towards effecting it ; no future question could be raised. 3574. In the sort of legislation that *b contemplated in these questions^ the con- se>.fc of the county to make itself responsible for a certain annuity in proportion to the capital advanced, is, as you are aware, the basis of the whole proposition, and that consequently whatever difficulties might occur as arising out of the nature of the property, claims upon that property must be considered by the county in the first instance before any proposition could be made, and the only effect of those diffica- ties would be to make the application of this system absolutely impracticable in the cases of the condition of property which have been represented in tlie answer yoo have given to the Committee, but it would not supersede the contribution of a direct sum, nor would it in any degree prevent the application of the annuity system to properties which do not happen to be equally complex ? — I think in some instances the annuity plan might work beneficially ; but I am afraid it would be .eceiving ou .roprietor8 only to defray the passage across the Atlantic ; it appears to me a clear and most desirable division of the expense ; the mere cost of the passage is now not above 2 /. 1 os,, it will r- \bly become still less ; the provisions will make no serious addition, the nei((...ours and relations of the pauper emigrant do and will contrive to contribute potatoes for his sea-store, and it is in evidence how much more healthy an Irish pauper emigrant arrives in the colo..ies when so provisioned, than with the more expensive fare '.vhich was provided for him in the late experiments. Many landlords will be found to contribute the mere expense of passage, and be assured, that still more frequently even the poorest tenants 'I contrive, by subscrip- tion among their friends and in other ways, to provide it iiemselves. 3580. These questions are necessarily put to you without any authority, under the supposition of the Committee contemplating a recommendation upon the subject by ParUament. If the preference were to be given, as has been stated, to the emi- grants proceeding from properties which are in future to be subjected to an im- proved system of management, it would be necessary that security should be given on the part of the proprietors to furnish the funds for the removal of those emifnrants upon the terms prescribed by Government, as a preliLiinary to any application for the n-'verument ticket for the emigrant i pon bis arrival in the colony ; thatcircum- stance alone would prescribe a limitation, for it would be priority of application, or rather the fulfilment of the terms proposed, which would necessarily regulate the selection, and whenever the number of emigrants exceeded the means of the Go- vernment to receive them, of necessity there would be a period put to the emigration for the*: Articular year ? — The necessity of providing in the first instance for the ex- pense of passage would of course afford some check to the number of applications ; you would still hav more than you could provide for. 3581. Suppose such tenant received the sanction of such authority as might be devised, under a system for the guaranteeing those circumstances which are necessary to qualify the family as of candioaies ?— Probably the machinery of the Petty Sessions would be found the most avulable for that purpose, if magistrates might inquire into all the circumstances of the candidates, and certify accordingly to the proper au- thority who shall have the disposal of the tickets. 3,582. Have you ever turned your attention to the reclaiming of the waste lands of Ireland, as connected with the employment of the poor? — I once served upon 550. U u 3 a commission Jtim L. Fottn, En 10 May, tl«;. m iW 343 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /•An L. TuHtr, 10 May, ilt7. acomoiiuion t* inquire into the practicability of rccluiiuing tbc bogs of Ireland, and I have a general recollection of the result. 3583« Will you be good enough to inform the Committee the general process that takes place in the settlement of paupers in the neighbourhood of one of those, bogs? — Settlement it can hardly be called; a pauper often takes possession of a spot upon the bog, and builds a house of sods, perhaps of the value of twenty or thirty shillings, he pays no rent, and subsists there as miserably as possible, partly upon alms and partly by depredation. 3584. What was the opinion given by the engineers, at the period you refer to, with respect to the practicability of reclaiming those waste lands, and the expense of it ? — The Commissioners employed ten engineers, who surveyed and took the levels of al- most ail the bogs of Ireland, and reported upon the experiments hitherto made for their rcrlamation ; they suggested a variety of processes for the purpose, which are to be found at large in the Reports. These volumes are much sought for ; their sale price is now 1 3 guineas. I remember there was a remarkable coincidence in the view:, of the engineers, p« to the pecuniary temptation that existed to engage in the work ; they all seemed to expect a return of from ten to fifteen per cent per annum for the money that should be laid out, whether 'he expenditure should be one pound or twenty pounds per acre. I beg here to advert to a prejudice which is very pre- valent, but wholly without foundation : It is supposed that in the event of the improvement of the bogs, the country would be left without a sufficient supply of fuel ; on the contrary, we should not merely derive the advantage of cultivating their surface, but increase their capability of supplying fuel many hundred fold. Fuel tan at present be obtained onk from the edges of the bogs, the wetness of their interior rendnrs it unavailable for the purpose, but if once drained, fuel might be obtained from every part of ihem ; and it is a great mistake to suppoac that the drainage of a bog would impair its qualities for fuel, on the contrary it would operate as the greatest possible improvement, and that not merely at the time it was effected, but at all future periods, and in a degree progressively increasing. 3585. What were the obstacles that prevented the realization of such a plan? — The obstacles are not of a financial or agricultural, but of a legal nature. In the present state of the law it is in vain to expect that the bogs of Ireland ever can be extensively improved. The proprietors who have estates on the terra firma adjoin- ing to the bog are the proprietors in fee of the bog also, but the boundaries between their properties are not marked out within it: itib admitted that a line of division between their estates must be of right traceable somewhere in the interior of the bog, but, owing to the unprofitable nature of its surface, they have never been it the trouble of defining it. A still more serious obstacle, however, arises from the rights of the tenants against their landlords ; the tenants upon the contiguous terra firma are usually entitled, not merely to turbary upon the edge of the bog, but to a summer pasture upon its interior. The share of each tenant in the turf bank which constitutes the boundary of the bog is accurately defined, but with respect to the summer pasture in the interior of the bog the case is diflferent ; each of these tenants has generally a right to a certain proportion of summer pasture, co- extensive in duration with his lease of the terra firma, and they turn in their cattle to provide for themselves a scanty subsistence,- often at the risk of being lost in the quagmire; each tenant turns in his cattle on the part contiguous to his farm, and when hunger tempts them to wander further, reciprocal conveniencle forbids its being considered as a trespass. Now, although the tenant's right df pasture in the bog is of very little present value to him, yet, if the landlord were to wish to make the bog valuable by reclaiming it, the tenant would immediately set up his right against him, and which right would become valuable just in prd- portion to the intended exertions of the landlord. Therefore matters thus stand ; the tenant will not improve the bog, owing to the shortness of his term and the impossibility of defining the bounds and limits of his property, nor yet has the landlord the power to effect the object if he were so disposed, because the tenant is both able and willing to prevent him. 3586. Would you be disposed to agree with the opinion which wasgiv;en at thi|t time, that supposing all impediments of a legal nature were removed from the reclamation of the bogs, that capital employed in such reclamation would be rewarded with an interest of from ten to fifteen per cent? — I cannot doubt it, seeing that so many able and intelligent persons, after years of consideration anc( 4ixperience, have come, I think unanimously, to that opinion. • .3587* 1^0 you sec any insurmountable objections to a law being passed, under i . ' nhigli imk- FEE. Irelaiwl, I proceu ! of thoM value of ) possible, ier to, with e of it ?— jvelsof al- made for which are for ; their ince in the ;age in the ^er annum one pound i very pre- 9nt of the supply of rating their old. Fu«l ess of their I might be £ that tlvc y it would It the time :reasing. a plan?— re. In the tver can be rma adjoin- ies between ! of division !rior of the rer been ait IS from the guous terra , but to a turf bank h respect to ch of these )asture, co- their cattle f being lost ruous to his convenience It's right 6i indlord were immediately just in prd- thus stand ; erm and the ■ yet has the the tenant is given at thi^t ed from tho )n would lie lot doubt it, deration and assed, under vhigh ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : iSaj. 343 wl)ich some system of adjustment might take place, by which the itlativc interesU of the parlies might be secured, so as not tu interfere in the reclamation of those wastes r — It would be a matter of very considerable difliculty to frame an Act ade- quate to the purpose ; but I am far from thinking it would be impossible. 3588. Uave you seen a Bill, which was introduced two sessions ago, intended for that purpose ? — The Bill was shown to me ; I have seen two or three such Bills. 3589. Did it appear to you that that Bill would be effectual for the purposes for which it was intended r — I have now only a general recollection of its provisions ; I am certain that I thought the Bill would effect some good ; but my present im- pression is, that I did not think it would attain its object fully ; I thought :t also niore arbitrary in some of its provisions than was either necessary or admissible j I would force parties to consent to a division of property, but I would carry com- pulsion no farther. 3590. Supposing it to be the object of a landlord at the present moment, or the landlords of adjacent estates, to effect a division of their estates, what proceedinff must Ihey have recourse to, to effect their purpose ? — They may go into the court oi Chancery for a commission of perambulation, with a certainty of nothing but the expense that will attend the experiment ; and even after having done so, they could not advance another step, owing to the rights of their own tenants. It is tlie last which constitute the real practical impediment. 3591. Do not the difficulties to which you have adverted with respect to thie division of bog hinds, also apply to maixh lands, with reference to keeping up banks to prevent the inundation of rivers? — They do; but the marshes of Ireland are very insignificant ii. point of extent, when compared with the bogs. 3592. Can you inform the Commitee the estimated extent of the boss of Ireland ? — The bogs of Ireland are divisible into two great classes : flat red bogs, and the peat-covermg of the mountains. It was ascertained by the Commissioners that there were of the flat red bogs, 1,576,000 English acres; and of peat-covering leclaimable mountains, 1 .355,000 English acres ; making an aggregate of 2,83 1 ,00a English acres. 3593. You have stated that the tenants have a particular claim of pasturage upon those bogs ; do you not imagine that those claims might be estimated in a money value, upon an average? — If proper regulations were adopted for the purpose, I am sure they could. 3594. If that were the case, that would facilitate any arrangement under which A reclamation of those bogs could be contemplated ? — It would constitute one of the most important parts of any legislative machinery that might be employed for the purpose of facilitating the reclaiming of the bogs. 3595' Do you think there would be any difficulty in adjusting the divisions of property in the interior of the bogs, which adjustment you state, from there being so little value attached to this sort of property, has never yet taken place ? — There must be some adequate authority provided for perambulation ; tnd in the nature of arbitration, if proper persons were selected, I am not aware of i ny case in which they would have much difficulty in deciding. 3596. Supposing those two circumstances to be provided for, and the consent of a sufficient number of parties to justify the compulsory consent of the remainder^ would there appear to be any serious impediment in the framing of a law for thai purpose ? — I should think not; it has always been my opinion that it would be aa excellent measure to attempt 3597' Whatever advantages might result to individuals, or to Ireland generallyi firom the reclamation of their waste lands, are you of opinion that such an extent of employment could be afforded to the pauper population of Ireland, under the con- tihgency of such reclamation, as in any degree to restore the proportion of the supply of labour to the demand, in the manner which is contemplated under a system of emigration ? — Most certainly not, even if you could suppose a reclamation of the bogs to be attempted to-morrow. 3598. Supposing that those 2,800,000 acres of bog land were brought into a s^te of. cultivation, ihat circumstance would involve the employment of a consider* able t;<>mber of labourers for that purpose ?— -Of > -irse to a considerable extent ; but I apprehend that the bog, when reclaimed, would be principallv employed for meadow and pasture ; i do not apprehend that it would be much used as tilltu^e, a portion of it-would ; rape, and some green crops, are found to answer particularly well in it. 359!). Does not hemp grow well on bog land ?— I have always heard that H would, but I havenevef had ant)pportittiity of seeingit. * • .'w»t»'«^'>* Jokn L. Totttr, 10 May, vffliii; 550. Uu4 344 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITIEE ftftr Hobmttm, 10 May, 1837. • Peter Robinson, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 3600. WHEN did you return from Upper Canada ?— On the ]4ih of April lait. 360 1 . You superintended the Irish emigrants, who were sent out in the years 1 8'J3 and i8a5^— Idid. 3603. Will you give to the Committee a connected statement of what has oc- curred, since your bcmg authorized by Government to undertake the superintendence of this Emigration of 1 835, to the present period ? — Having been appomted to select and take charge of a limited number of emigrants from the south of Ireland, and settle them in the province of Up|>er Canada, I left London on the 8lh of April 1 835, and reachea Michelstown, m the county of Cork, on the 1 3th. From this date to the 33d of May I was employed in selecting persons, agreeably to my in- structions, superintendmg their embarkation, and discharging the different ships employed in their transportation. To choose about two thousand individuals out of fifty thousand who were anxious to emigrate, was found a very difficult and in many cases an ungrateful task ; and although I was assisted in the most friendly and zealous manner by the noblemen, magistrates, and respectable gentlemen of the baronies from which they were taken, the uimost vigilance became necessary to prevent imposition. In making my selection, I gave each man (head of a family) af^r being approved, a certificate, and retained a duplicate; a method which I found on trial to be a much better plan than merely keeping a register of their names in a book. In a few instances, persons holding these certificates sold them to others who ^ere perhaps still more drairous of emigrating, and whose families nearly corresponded in age and number to their own ; but I oelieTe in no instance did the deception succeed. Th(> surgeon of each transport had orders to report 9t aeon as he had received his complement of settlers on board ; on which I proceadcd to the ship, and mustered them all on the main deck ; the hatches were then closed except one, where, in the presence of the surgeon and master, I took the original certificates, which had been given over by the head of each family to the surgeon at the time of his embarkation, and from these, after comparing them with the dupli> cates in my own possession, I called over the names of each individual belonging to the different families, and when I was satisfied they were of the age and descrip- tion given in by the father, and that no imposition had been practised, they were sent between-decks. In choosing the emigrants, the instructions, that they should be small farmers, able to make good settlers, and without the means of supporting themselves in Ireland, were scrupulously adhered to. It was of great import&nce to me, that in selecting the persons deemed most proper to emigrate, I was assisted by the neighbouring noblemen, magistrates and gentry, because, notwithstanding every precaution, murmurs were heard, and accusations were made. Thes9 were the more difficult to remove or answer, because they seldom descended to particular coses, but were so conducted as to produce a general impre&sion, if not contradicted, that the emigrants selected wore the exterior appearance at least of having been exempted from that distress which their removal from the country was intended to remedy, and consequently that they were not the de- scription of persons whom it was the intention of Parliament to relieve. It was fortunate that these things came to my ears before I left Ireland, as it afforded me an opportunity of submitting my Instructions to several gentlemen of the first respectability and honour, who could no' be supposed in any way interested, and who had ao «^|>portunity, by personal inspection and inquiry, to ascertain how far these instructkras had governed my conduct ; I therefore applied to the Mayor of Cork, and Sir Anthony Perrier, to accompany me on board of the ships Fortitude, Resolution, Albion, and Brunswick, then at Cove, and ready for sea, that, by the most minute investigation, they might ascertain how far the Settlers on board of thsse ships corresponded with the description of persons whom I was instructed to select. I ■ .Ml. [Their Certificate was delivered in, and read, asfoUuws ;] " WE the undersigned, certify, That at the request of Mr. P. Robinson we did on Monday the 9th instant repair on board the ships Fortitude, Resolution, Albion, and Brunswick, engaged to carry Emigrants from this port to Canada, for the purpose of ascertaining whether the passengers embarked therein (amounting to upwards of one thousand persons) were of the description pointed out in the Instructions given by the Government to Mr. Robinson, which we had previously seen : And we .-*«rtify. That aftei' a very close and personal inspection of every individual ptssenger.m ■aid four ships, we are convinced that such Instructions have been in every r«|^)ect f ti'ictly complied with ; and that the passengers appear to us to be of thitt class, pnly whic h ON EMICnATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1S17. 345 which it i* the object of the Government to encourage to emigrutc. Dated at Cork, tliii I itb day of May 1 83 ,. (ligned) John N. Wriron, Mayor of Cork. Anthony Perrier, Magistrate of the County and City of Cork." Nor wan this all -, so deeply did I feel my responsibility, that I invited Mr. Horace Townsend and Mr. Callaghnn to examine the Emigranta after they wore alt on board, and to assist me in detecting any inipoHition which might have been practised upon me, in order that even at that late period the object of such imposi- tion might be discovered and punished. I was the more anxious to procure the assistance of these two gentlemen, because 1 had been given to understand that they entertained a very unfavourable opinion of the mode of selection, and in particular imagined that the recommendation of the noblemen, magistrates and gentry to whom I had been particularly referred, had been contincd to their own tenantry. The result was the most satisfactory, every suspicion was removed, and the approbation of the gentle- men above noticed given with the utmost sincerity and good will to the faithfulness of my selection, as will appear by the following Certificate, [which wot dtlivered in, and read :] " WE certify. That having at the request of Mr. Peter Robinson visited, on Monday the Kith of May instant, the ships Amity, Elizabeth, Uugulus, and John Barry, about to proceed with Emigrants from this port to Canada, and carefully examined every individual passenger, we are fully of opinion thut they are the description of persons who ought to be encouraged to emigrate, and who appear to be in the contemplation of Government for that purpose. " We observed a few elderly people on board, accompanied by large families of well grown children, to whom we conceive they will be very useful in the new settlement, on account of their superior experience and knowledge of agricultural P""""*' (signed) Horace Tffomsmd, i'"v .i ' Justice of Peace, Co. Cork. ^'; " Cork, 17th May 1825. Anthony Perrier, *^ Justice of Peace County and City of Cork." I beg also to add the testimony of the Magistrates attending the Petty Sessions at Cecilstown, county of Cork : " WE hereby certify, That on Mr. Robinson's arrival in this country in the year 1823, the people of our neighbourhood were disinclined to accompany him to Canada, appearing to doubt the advantages held out by Government to person* willing to emigrate to that country being realized on their arrival ; and it was with great difficulty the gentlemen in whom they had confidence could induce them to believe that no deception was intended : That since that time their minds have undergone a total change, in consequence, as we conceive, of the favourable accounts that have been received from the settlers of 1823 ; and that on Mr. Robinson's recent arrival in this country the applications were so very numerous, that it became a mutter of great difficulty to make a selection from amongst them, claims and qualifications being so nearly balanced : That no persons, however, were approved of, but such as were recommended by the written or personal appli- cations of the respectable gentlemen from whose neighbourhood they came, and who were of the description we understood from Mr. Robinson it was the intention of Government to prefer, such as the inhabitants of the disturbed districts, and farmers and others in reduced circumstances, unable to obtain an honest livelihood at home, or to pay their passage to Canada." . ' Having si en all the emigrants embarked and under way, I found it requisite to return to London, to make the necessary pecuniary arrangements. Accordingly I.left Cork on the 24th, and arrived in London on the 27th May; and having made such arrangements as were deemed sufficient, I got to Liverpool on the 8tn, and sailed in the Panther for New York on the 9th of June. The passage was unusually long, and I did not reach Niagara till the 28th of July : here I learned that the transports conveying the emigrants had all arrived, having had very short passages, not any of them, except the John Barry, having had more than 31 days. The greater number of the settlers had been actually forvvarded to Kingston, where they were encamped in tents, by order of his Excellency Sir Peregrine Maitiaud, and werp 550. X X anxiously I i^ii- 346 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE fthf WfihtMrm, E«,. JoMty, ll(7. ! ( f I anxiouxly waiting my wrrival. 1 likewiM iimierMood that some of them were miAH^ \ng from fevrr tnd *ffM, occuionrd liy the cxcf ssivc heat of the Kaaon, ttic thariiKit* nit^ter having itood at loo* in tlio •hacio within the laat ten tlayi. Having deliverad Lord Uathiint's despatchc* to hia Excellency Sir Peregrine Maitland, and received the warmeit aMurancea of support in forwarding the settlement of the emigrants, aa had indeed been strongly manifested in the measure which had been already adopted by his Excellency, in setting a|Nirt for llieir reception tlie townships in tue rear of the Rice Lake, which consist of as fine land aa there is in the province. Leaving Niagara on the 30th of July, I proceeded to York, and procured without delay from the surveyor general all the inforoiation in his possession relative to the land which I wn« about to settle. On the 3d of August I arrived, by land, at Cobourg, a disunce of seventy miles from York, and though I felt impatient to proceed to Kingston, to see the settlers, yet, on consideration, I thought I should forward my object more by viewing the lands on which they were to be located, ascertaining the means of communication, and the proper place for the depAt of stores and provi- sions. Instead therefore of going forward to Kingston, I went back into the interior, to ascertain tliose respective objects. Maving employed Mr. M'Donell, an intelli> rint and respectable young man, well acquainted with the country, as my guide, explored the diflerent rivers and avenues of access to the lands allotted for the emigrants, and was highly gratified in discovering ||rcater facilities of communica- tinn than I had anticipated, and that the tract was m every respect highly eligible. I found that we could get cur provisions and stores forwarded half the distance by water, and that there was a central situation at the head of the Otanabee Kivcr highly convenient for a dep6t. Having spent six days in exploring the woods, and satisfied myself us to the quality and situation of the land, I joined the emigrants at Kingston. Here I found them as comfortable as could be reasonably expected ; some of them suffering from fever and ague, owing to the intense heat of the weather, though not in a greater proportion tiian the inhabitants of the province generally. Every thing poKsFbic had been done for their benefit by his Excellency Sir Peregrine Maitland ; he had appointed Colonel Burke deputy superintendent, who was m charge at Kingston on my arrival i und Doctor Readc, the surgeon, had been left at Prcscott, to forward the settlers who atill remained behind. On the 11th of August I embarked five hundred on board of a steam-bont, and landed them the next day at Cobourg on Lake Ontario, a distance of one hundred miles ; the remainder of the settlers were brought up in the same manner., the boat making a trip each week. Our route from Cobourg to Smith, at the head of the Otanabea river, lay through a country as yet very thinly inhabited ; the road leading from I^ke Ontario to the Rice Lake (13 miles) hardly passable, and the Otanabee river in many places very rapid, and the water much lower than it had been known for many years. The first thing I did was to repair the road, so that loaded waggons might pass ; and in this work I received every assistance from tiie magis- trates of the district, who gave me fifty pounds from tlie district funds ; and wis •um, together with the labour of our people, enabled me to iiupiove the road in ten days so much, that our provisions and baggage could be sent across with ease, and three large boats were transported on wheels from I^ake Ontario to the Rice Lake. The Otanabee river is navigable for twenty-four miles, although in many places it ia very rapd, and at this season there was not water sufficient to float a boat of the ordinary construction over some of the shoals. To remedy this difficulty, I bad a boat built of such dimensions as I thought might best answer to ascend the rapids, and had her completed in eight days. So much depended upon the success of this experiment, that I felt great anxiety until the trial was made ; and I cannot express the happiness I felt at finding that nothing could more fully have answered our purpose, and that this boat, sixty feet in length and eig^t feet wide, carrying an immense burthen, could be more easily worked up the stream than one of half the size, carrying comparatively nothing. Now that I had opened the way to the dep^ at the head of the river, there was no other difficulty to surmount than that which arose from the prevailing sickness, the ague and fev«r, which at this time was as common among the old settlers as ourselves. The first party I ascended the river with consisted of twenty men of the country, hired as axemen, and thirty of the healthiest of the settlers : not one of these men escaped the ague or fever, and two died. This circumstance affords abundant proof that the settlers were much better off, encamped in the open country during the greatest heat of the weather, where they were not only less liable to contract disease, but were also esempt from being tormented by the flies, which swarm in the woods during TEI OfN EMIGIUTIOK PROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: ita^. $47 ilhflriiio>> Jelivertd received (TftnU, M r Adopted w rear of Leaving tut delay the land Cobourg, xiceed to rward my lining the jid provi- c interior, in intelli' my guide^ :d for the mmunica- y eligible. ) distance Otanabee loring the joined the -eosonably ISC heat of e province ^Ixceilency 'intendent, rgeon, had . On the nd landed li'cd miles ; at making Otanabee iding from Otanabee leii known lat loaded tiie inaeis* ; and wis >e road in cross with jrio to the Ubough in lificient to ;medy this answer to nded upon was made ; more fully eiglit feet the stream lad opened lifficulty to and fever, The first y, hired as en escaped pi-oof that he greatest Itsease, but the woods during during ttie summer uiontlis. The location of llic cniitrrants, by far the most troublesomn and lalMirioux |mrt of tin- wrvica, was (■oinpli-tttl l>el°nre tite winter commenced, and I had u small l<>g>liouse built for each head of a family, on their respective lots, where Ihcy reside. Ani\ it gives me mucii pkasnre to be riMbled to assure vou that they have been industrious and well conducted, and (hat tlicy have clearea and cultivated as great a proportion of their land as cuid\ , been landed at Quebec, for which, I l)elievo, (here hos been as yet no credit given. 3606. That would reduce the expense to about 20 1, per head ? — It ^vould. 3607. You have stated, that you were employd in inspe<:ting the land for the reception of those emigrants ? — 1 was. 3uu8. Do you not conceive, if emigration were to be carried in upon a. system, that all that inspection and location would take place before, which would in some degree diminish the expense of each successive enii'rration ? — I.' it was known the year before the number of emigrants that would be sl. Ied.in an^ one distri'*', agreat expense might be saved by exploring the land and opening the roads Ik 'irehand; and getting the provisions and stores forwarded in the winter season. ^ :> Id save half the expense of transport. 3609. Have you had an opportunity, while you h:ive bp^n in this country, o*^ reading the Evidence that has been ^iven by witnesses before ' lu • ,'ommittee, durin^; the present year? — I have. 3610. Have you seen the Estimate that has been drawn up by Mr. Felton and Mr. Buchanan, which limits the expense of an emigrant family of five persons, from the period of their leaving the port in the rtiother country, to the termination of their receiving assistance in the colony, to the amount of 60/. per family? — I have. 3611. Have you examined that Estimate? — I have; their calculation seems to be made upon the supposition that they will be settled within fifty miles of the Saint Lawrence, and not 500 miles up the country. 361a. As far as your own knowledge goes, would you be prepared to assent to that calculation, supposing them to be settled at that distance from the Saint Law- rence? — It depends entirely upon the expense of transport to Quebec; in that calculation it is much less than the expense incurred by the Navy Board in 1835, when there was an opportunity given to the public to come forward and make the lowest tenders ; it was found on that occasic. t*^ differ very little from the expense incurred by the Navy Board in 1 833. 3613. The estimate by Mr. Buchanan and iVir. Felton is, that each family would be conveyed to Quebec for 13/. ; what was the expense incurred under the Emigra* tion of 1835, for that passage? — The expense incurred for the transport of 3024 settlers from Ireland to Quebec, ami paid to the Navy Board, amounted to 15,651 /. \'s. id. equal to 7/. 13 j. 8./. per head, consequently, that sum multiplied \ff five amounts to 38/. 8j. 4d.; and that expense, although made after public advertisement by tender, exceeded the expense in 1833 by the sum of 1 /. oj. loi d. per head. 3614. Have you a scale of the provisions that were furnished to the emigrants, during the passage from Cork to Quebec ? — I have. [The Witness delivered in the same, which itasfoUows:] 550. X X 2 I^Htr 10 Ms/, lit?. ■Vfiji%i*-' 34» MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMrrTEE I • Tttir JtotiMoii, »— > 16 May » : A M S ii4 •4 O O B p •s o o ■A H »S •«» O M a o •J < o M Ui u p a i i i M* MM -M PI 1 u if •4* •4* MM 1 > 1 HiM 1 Hill 1 t^M 1 ^ 1 MlH 1 H« 1 aW 1 MM 1 MM 1 .M 1 MM MM 1 M|M 1 MM 1 MM HH 1 MM 1 MM 1 MM MlM n n MM 1 u a g 1 to 1 (o 10 10 \ 10 I -lf4 Hn H|H MiM g mK Mhf H14 M|4 M|« H|4 «1* Ml* Ml* Ml* Ml* Ml* Ml* .*« M|B MJH MM MM MM Mlrt Mirt Ml* Ml* Ml* Ml* Ml* .*• Ml* m a s -^ N«^^rt.«MM»4 Mp«««p«-«^p« i c a N 1 (O 1 tS 100 d 1 HN 1 XIM 1 Hid 1 £ 1 nW 1 HK 1 HR 1 1 1 <0 1 (O 1 tc •*• 1 MM 1 Mk. 1 MM MM 1 MM 1 MM 1 MIM -*l MM CO 1 u a g CO 1 to 1 C5 iJ iJ n •< 1 1 B) 3) 5» §•- >• hi ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : 1827. 349 3615. From your experience, are you of opinion that any practical difficulty will arise in aeparbting the expense and management of the passage altogether from the control of Government, always supposing that no emigrant will be entitled to the Government assistance upon landing who has not received a ticket, under such regulations as may be advised, entitling him to it upon the terms of such emigrant having been approved ? — None. If the emigrant is left to find his own passage to Quebec, he will put up with many inconveniences and privations that he would not be disposed to do if he were sent out at the Government expense; and if any casualty should happen, from death or otherwise, the Government would incur no odium, whereas if they were sent out at t^ public expense, and any such accident did occur, such consequences would be int^table. 3616. Will you inform the Committee what is the lowest amount in money, per family of five persons, which you think it would be prudent to consider as the mini- mum to be advanced in the way of assistance to emigrant families who are located upon Government land, taking the whole North American provinces upon one general average ? — Taking it in that way, including both Upper and Lower Canada, and New Brunswick, I think that they may be settled at 12/. per head for each person, in the proportion of one man, one woman, and three children to a family ; and I do not think they will ever be settled as they have been for less. 3617. In the 12/. no expense is included for the passage? — No, the 12/. is to cover the expense of settling them after their arrival at tlie port in America. Each head of a family is to be located upon 100 acres of land, to have a small log-house built for him, and to be furnished with 15 months provision; 1 cow, 1 American axe; 1 auger, 1 handsaw, 1 pick-axe, 1 spade, 2 gimlets, 1 00 nails, 1 hammer, l iron wedge, 3 hoes, 1 kettle, 1 frying-pan, 1 iron pot, 5 bushels seed potatoes, 8 quarts indian corn ; and if they are very poor they will require also blankets, in the pro- portion of one to each grown person, and one among three children. 361 8. Taking into consideration the contingencies and casualties that might arise upon an extended scale of emigration, you are therefore decidedly of opinion that it would be unsafe to make the estimate of the expense 8i location at less than 60/. per family, after landing in the port of the colony } — I am decidedly of that opinion. I was constantly with the emigrants, from the time I took charge of them at Kingston till the 24th of November i S26, when their rations ceased, and I am not aware that I could have lessened, in any way, the expense that was incurred, without much inconvenience to the settler. 3619. During how long a period do you contemplate the expenditure of this money for the purpose of benefiting the emigrant ? — Fifteen months after their arriviJ at Quebec. 36SO. The Committee are to understand, that upon an average, at the end of fifteen months the emigrant will be in a state of comparative independence? — Yes, placed in a situation to provide for themselves. 3621. Supposing an emigrant were to be required at the end of seven years to pay the sum of 3 /. 12s. per annum, either in money or in money's worth, that being at the rate of six per cent, the current rate of interest in the colony, upon the 60/. in value pre-supposed to be received by him, are you of opinion that there is any doubt whatever as to his competency to make such a payment?— I have not the least doubt ; and I feel justified in giving this opinion from the result of the experi- ment made in 1 825, a memorandum of which I have, and am ready to submit, and the Committee will see by this, that the settlers had realized by their own labour 1 1,272 /. 8 s. -Id. sterling. This return I took a great deal of pains, by personal inspection, to have correct, and I am sure it may be relied on. \The fVuness ddixered in a Return, which was read, and is asfolUrws ;] ftltr 9akmami \ ■ ^ 1 10 Miy, 1847. 550. X X 3 W,.i.?:_. •lvOi:^-uS:- / - **' \ .- :i:->a':f,i -.' ■^•lV".-':. ' .7-'.- ; r r 1 -. ■ • '*•''■; '-^-T J . 1 »■, « . '! is 1 i' 350 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E«,. i« May, 1817. Estimated Value of the Produce of the Labour of the Emigrants of \ifSt on the 24th November 1836. 1,386 i acres of Land cleared and fenced, at 4/. per acre -..--.-- 67»799 bushels of Potatoes, at i *. - 25,633 busbelsof Turnips, at 6 9 640 11 >,304 »6 737 _ 151 a 280 - 360 - 112410 6 3 12,524 19 1 11,272 8 -i 3622. What is the amount of the property which has been created by the industry of those emigrants at the present moment ? — I have put the lowest value upon it, and I find it amounts to 12,524/. 19^. \d. Halifax, equal to 11,272/. sterling. 3623. You lived under canvas with those emigrants for several months ?— I did. 3624. What was their general conduct during that period ? — In general their conduct was industrious, orderly and good ; they were perfectly obedient to me at all times. , 3625. Could you be justified in saying of them as a bod^^ that they were indus- trious? — Quite so. 3626. Did they appear to be sensible of the advantages that they have experienced in removing from Ireland ? — Entirely so, very grateful. 3627. From your experience with regard to the character and habits and feelings of that class of persons, if it were duly explained to them before they left their own country, that they cuuld only receive this assistance upon the terms of nnaking re- payment as proposed, nemely, at the rate of 3/. 12«. annual rent, redeemame at will, charged upon their land at the termination of seven years, are you of opinion that, having no other alternative than to remain in their own country or to accept such ternos, they would accept them willingly and with a determination to ^fect their part of the contract ? — Those who have never been out of Ireland have so Uttlfr idea of the country, and are so anxious to get away, that there is no question but that they would embrace almost any offer ; but I am certain that after their arrival in the country, and seeing the advantages that were possessed by being fur- nbhed with utensils and a year's provisions, they would readily agree to the temu of Government, and repay the money at any reasonable period. 3628. If therefore it was expluned to an emigrant head of a fitmilv landed al Quebec, that he might take his choice, either to act independently of the Govern* ment assistance and try to employ himself as a labourer, or go into the United States, or take any other coarse that might be recommended to him, or on the other hand that he might accept this rate of Government assistance upon the term* of repayment proposed, are you of opinion that many of those families would, upon the iccommendation of their friends in the country, willingly consent to accept that assistance as a loan subject to repayment ? — I think they would accept of it undoubtedly. There might be perhaps a very few exceptions. 3629. You have lived in Canada all your life ? — I have. 3630. Have you any doubt as to the practicability of their paying this rent when- ever it may become due r — Not the least ; and it could be collected in the same manner as the ordinary parish rates are, by the collectors appointed annually at the towolfaip meetings. 3631. Are you of opinion that if an Emigration were carried on upon the system contemplated, and proper emigrants selected, under the limitations of age and other -* ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 351 other circumstances which attended the Emigratioos of 1S23 and 1825, that the Colonial Legislatures would be disposed to give all the facilities in their power to the furtherance of this system of emigration ? — I should hope they would ; but if, when the emigrant was placed upon the land, care was taken to exact a bond from him for repayment of the amount that should be expended in settling his family, there would be no necessity for any legislative provision in order to collect it. 3632. What is the mode in which you would suggest such a bond being taken r — Upon the arrival of the emigrant in Canada, at the depdt from whence he was to be taken to be located upon his land, if he consented, after seeing the country, to accept the proposals of the Government«|f would take his bond payable for the amount estimated, and also agree to give him the fee-simple of the land when the amount was paid ; but at the same time be should not be allowed to transfer his claim to his lot to any other persooi 3633. You think that no practical difficulty would arise from that restriction ?— None whatever ; I believe it is the mode generally adopted in the United States in selling land. 3634. Do you entertain any doubt that, supposing from any casualty or nM* conduct any settler should leave his location after a certain period of time, the improvement of the land would be a sufficient guarantee for the capital advanced upon that particular lot? — It would, if care was taken generally to insure their settlement upon such land as was capable of giving a eood return ; there should be not less than thirty or forty acres of good land on the lot of lou acres. 3635. Do you not imagine that there is an almost indefinite extent of fertile land, which would be sufficient to prevent the circumstance of failure in any early emigration ? — Unquestionably. 3636. Do you think if the money raised by this territorial revenue was to be applied in liquidation of the expenses now sustained by the mother country annually, whether civil or military, for colonial purpose?, that there would be any difficulty in the collection being carried on under the control of the Colonial Legislatures, and the amount paid as a single item into the hands of the Commis- sariat in the different colonies, in aid of the expenses of the year ? — I apprehend there would be no difficulty whatever in the collection of it, especially if paid in kind. 3637. Do you think there would be any disposition on the part of the Colonies to consider that the repayment of interest upon this principle was attended with any sort of disadvantage to the colony ; would they not consider it in the same light as any other speculation that was set on foot, by which capital was introduced into the colonies, and that the advance of capital would naturally be expected to involve a return to the capitalist advancing it? — Certainly; those that took the pains to con- sider the subject must come to that conclusion. 3638. Is there not a general opinion throughout the North American colonies, that their interest will be very greatly promoted by the effect of a judicious system of emigration ? — I believe it is the universal opinion in Canada. 3639. You spoke of the rent being collected in the same way as other county rates, what per centage h paid upon the collection of those rates ?-^I am not certain ; I think it is five per cent. 3640. Are you aware what rent has ever been collected upon the clergy reserves ? — I am not, as they are in the hands of the corporation of the clergy. 3641 > How would you collect a considerable rent in kind ? — It should be deli- vered by the settler at the market town, on some lake or navigable river, to be named by the Governor of the province. 3642. Are you able to state what may be the average number of voluntary emigrants who at present arrive in a year at Quebec?— I have always understood from eight to ten thousand. 3643. Will you describe practically what becomes of those persons, upon arriving at Quebec ? — Many of those people that arrive during the summer months find labour at Quebec, and from thence gradually go up the country and cross over to the United States, or go to Upper Canada after they get to Prescot, Kingston, or York. * ;S,.. ^6/\4. Will you describe generally about what proportion of those eight drilen thousand persons may be paupers, that is, persons not having above a few pounds 550. X x 4 when Ptttr RMum, 10 May, 1897. 3 VI It 352 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BfeFOHE SELECT COMMiTTEf? I'rter Robiiumt, 10 May, l8«7. )^ when they land? — I should think the greater proportion of tiiein arc of that description, that is, men with from ciglit to ten pounds, or probably less, when they land. 3645. Then their first employment is bh day-labourers? — Their first employment is as day-labourers. 3646. Is the ultimate fate of those persons in general to become land proprietors, after the expiration of a few years of industry r — It is. 3647. Do they frequently experience much misery, owing to want of employment in the first instance ? — A great deal, ifj^ey arrive late in the- season. 3648. Will you describe to the Committee what you consider would be the effects if the present annual impdrtation of tho.se persons should, from any cause, be in* creased to the extent of four or five thousand persons? — The effe t would be, that they would become a burthen to the colony, either at Quebec, Montreal, *»ing8ton, or York. 3649. Is th.r.'i any obstacle to their diffusing themselves over that district of country and finding employment ? — The misfortune is, that they would only find employ- ment during 'he summer months, and in harvest ; and in Quebec during the season of loading sii'.ps « .(h timber. The chance is, as the winter approached they would find themse) es without employment. 3650. Is there any obstacle to prevent those persons from betaking them- selves to the United States before the arrival of the winter, and finding em- ployment in thaUway? — There is nothing to prevent their going to the united States ; but a man with a family does not find it so easy to move from one place to another. 365 1 . Supposing those persons before the approach of the winter were to pass Montreal and seek for employment in Upper Canada, would they find there any effective demand for their labour ? — They would, to a certain number, during the summer and autumn. ; ^ ^ 3652. Is it the general habit of those persons to ^o forwArd into Upper Canada for that purpose ? — In general they remain too long in Lower Canada, where they find labour during the summer months. 3653. If means should be tak m to explain to them th'; necessary consequences oi that mistake on their part, do not you think they could be induced, some cf them, to go to Upper Canada, or to pass into the United States or wherever there might be an effective demand for their labour? — That is the case now ; their friends do advise them to proceed to Upper Canada or to the United States, and they have heretofore found the means of subsistence, but if the njmber was increased, they might be exposed to much suffering ; however, single meii may always provide for themselves. 3654. Do you think that there is a want of labourers in the farther parts of Upper Canada which it would be desirable to remedy by any arrangement which could bring up those emigrants upon the terms of their labour paying back the ex- pense that migiit be incurred in their actual passage across the country ? — There is a want of labourers in Upper Canada, but the great question is, whether you could find any person that could afford to take a man with his family off your hands. .36.55- The proposition contemplated is of this nature, that a farmer in the further part of Upper Canada might communicate with an Emigration Board, for example, at Quebec, and state that if any persons will come to him, whom they could recommend, and who had sufficient certificates of good conduct to induce him to take them, who would serve him for two years, for example, without wages, that he will keep them during that period, and after that period give them a certain rate of wages ? — A certain number might find employment in that way ; and I am con- vinced there are many thousand people in Upper Canada who would willingly con--, tribute something to getting out their friends, and would receive them and provide for them. 365O. Do not you think tliat a system might be established, without any practical difficulty, under which colonists who are settled and f»rospering in Upper Car la, who have friends in the mother cotftitry, might, by an arrangement with an Emigra- tion Board, make deposits which would enable liiosc friends to join them without any expense wliu'cvtr incurred from any otlicr source? — Tlicy niiglit deposit enough to pay j,robably half tlie expenfo'; I do not think in many insluiiccs they could pay the Jt :\ UN EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iS?;. 353 the whole ; tbcy would deposit, probably, one or two pounds for each individual, and they might also produce the certificate of a ncigiibouring magistrate that they had the means of supporting tlie family they were desirous of getting out, in Canada after their arrival, which would be the principal thing required. 3657. You will understand the qudbtion as no including the expense of the passage ; with that limitation, do you imagine that it would be difficult to establish a system under which money should be deposited for the removal of the parties specially named, landing at Quebec to join their friends in any part of the province? — I am convinced that it might be very easily managed, ancf without much trouble. Some person might be appomted in the port of Quebec or New Brunswick, with whom the money might be deposited, and a certificate taken of the person that llpplied for his friend, certifying that he was able to support him when he did arrive, and that he should not be a burthen to the country, whicii certificate, forwarded to the town in which the man lived in Ireland or in hngland, would enable the captain of the vessel that took him out, to receive a certain sum from the collector or person with whom the money should be left, at the port, for his passage. 3658. The Committee are aware that a settler who is just beginning to clear his land, is probably not able to maintain a labourer ; but would not a -i^ttler who has been for a few years in a comfortable state, and who is naturally desirous of extend- ing tlie clearance of his ground, be Loth able and desirous to retain labourers for employment? — He would rather be desirous of getting out some friend of his. 0.%'. You think that such a person would not be disposed to employ as a la- bourer a stranger, tolerably well recommended, to assist him io the clearance of his ground ? — It is a thing that could not be depended on. • 3660. Is an emigrant on first coming out from Ireland a serviceable labourer in clearing land ? — Not much for the first year. 366 1 . Has a carpenter or a smith any material advantages over a common labourer upon his arrival in Upper Canada ? — They have decided advantages over other labourers, their labour is worth much more. 3662. Who pays them for their labour ?— They work in the different towns, where they always find employment. , 3663. The question now refe.s to the Upper Province ; the Committee under- stand you to state, that there is an elective demand for their labour there, though not fur the labour of mere day-labourers? — ^There is for day-labourers also, duiing the summer months. 3664. In a new country such as you have |peen describing, does not the partial settlement of that country open the means for an increased facility of future emi- grants coming to the country ?— Certainly. 3665. Supposing the Government of this country, for a succession of five or six years, were to afford facilities to families, comprising eight or ten thousand persons of respectable character, to locate themselves in different parts of the North American colonies, would not that give a facility to a voluntary emigration of individuals almost to the same extent ? — More than double the ex ,iit ; I am convinced that for every tooo persons you locate, you would get 2000 voluntary emigrants to join £heir friends. 3666. Then if a system of emigration were carried on to the extent that has been mentioned, of sending out eight or ten thousand person^ annually for five or six consecutive years, might not a voluntary emigration establish itself afterwards without any assistance from the Government ? — ^The voluntary emigration would he very much increased by it, but only to the extent of double the amount ; probably it would be limited to the extent of the connexions of those people. 3667. As soon as persons have becon'e settled in a new country, and have ac- quired property, is it not their disposition to purchase fresh possessions ? — Where they have a family of boys. 3668. And those persons who are so located by the old families, in the same way will make room for the employment of a fresh number of voluntary emigrants ? — They will of course. 3669. Will not the advantages offered by the Government emigration rather tend to stop voluntary emigration ? — It has not done so heretofore. 3670. If it were established as a system, woulc} it not have that effect ?t— I cannot conceive that it would, because the voluntary emigration consists of persons who have the mear.o of going themselves. 550. . Y y 3671. You Ptttr RobMum, 10 M*j, i8«7. ! ••■ I *♦ 354 AHNUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ii ' Ptttr RubtMon, Eiq 10 May, 1837. \ X 367 1 . You were understood to state, tliat the cost of locating emigranu would be 13/. independently of their passage? — Yes. 3672. Where do you conte- >laltf their location ? — That is, taking the range of both Upper and Lower Canaaa and New Brunswick. In some parts of Upper Canada it would exceed that sum a little, and in Lower Canada it might be less ; but it would df^pend, of course, much upon the price of provisions. 3673. WJiu' proportion of that expense of ill, a-head is consumed in rationing the people? — A 'out two thirds. 3674. What H the sort of food that you suppled the emigrants with ? — Pork and flour, and, when we were in a neighbourhood where beef i:ould be had, fresh beef occasionally. 3675. To what extent vould you suppbse that the timber ships would be able t^ carry out emigrants to Quebec and Montreal ? —I have not sufficient information to enable me to answer that question correctly, but I uidcrstund about 800 ships go annually to Quebec, and most of them in ballnrt. 3676. It has been stated by Mr. Buchanan, thiU the tht)bership5 that go out aiH nually from Ireland to Canada, would convey with }ot ii»r! ..,• ty emi|j,mnt? \o ;\ie ex- tent of fifty or .sixty thousand; have you informacton ;t)at corresponds i' t that opinion.^ — I behove Mr. Buchaniva's opinion to be jfji-'CUy : jrrt.:: 3677. Will you explain what f<^cilitiet! exist from steam nHvigation at present, for conveying eiiiigrants %bove Montreal K Upper Canada? — An emigrant can leave Quebec every day for Mcuti-eal on bcaifi! a steam-boat; above Monti eal, there is a cariage oi i)tne milcii T( La Chein<^, from thence the emigrants pn)ceed in batteaux as fair us Prescott. 3678. What distance is it froi« La (iioin*^ fj Prescott? — About 110 miles; from Prescott there are steam-bouib to Kingston, nvhich is abeut Jo miles ; and firom Kingston there are steam-boats to every per; on Lake • ^no. 3679. is there a-iy steam navigation higher up than « oke C.cano ?-— On Lake Eric there are also steam-boats. 36^0. What n the usual tonnage of those steam-boats ? — The largest steam^boat on Litkr. Ontario la about 500 tons ; the other steam-boats are smaller. .'ri!. It 13 scarcely necessary to ask you, whether the application of steam to ncvijition l)8:i not contributed in a singular degree to the facilities for emigration ? — V^ry muth indeed. 3682. W ill you describe generally what disti icts you would now recommend fair the location of any emigrations thaU|aight be m dertaken by Government from this country ? — I think that Lower Canaaa now preset^ts the best situation. 3683. Will you describe what part of the country you would recommend ? — Above Montreal on the Ottawa. , 3684. Where next?— Below Quebec. .^ 3685. Will you explain generally why you prefer those situations to any that Upper Canada might afford ? — The expense would be less, and the emigrant would be near a market ; the climate is good ; and it would be the means of inducing voluntary emigrants to turn their attention to that part of the country, wtiich they have not done hitherto. 3686. About what extent of fertile land do you conceive would be applicable to the purposes of location in those particular districts you have just adverted to ? — I have no means of ascertaining the quantity of land exactly } but it strikes me that it must be to a very large extent. ¥-■ 3687. Is the northern coast of Lake Erie very generally settled? — It is, very igeneraily. 3688. Do you expect that large quantities of timber will come down fromLake Erie to Montreal, after the Wclland canal is finished ? — I am sure that there will. 3689. So that there will be a great demand for labour when the Welland canal is complete, for the purpose of clearing the woods? — There will. 3690. Is there any difference between the timber of Upper and Lower Canada, as to quality or value ? — I think not. 3691 . Is there any market now for ashes from Upper Canada.^— the stumps of hard wood become auite rotten. ' • ^ ' 3698. In England, if you cut down an oak to the grAind, it will sprout again; is that the case with th^ hard wood in Canada ?«> It. is, and those sprouts should always be knocked off when they shoot. 3099. Does the stump of the tree perish in the ground ? — Very soon, if you break off the new shoots. , > ■' 3700. Is it t|ie general practice to allow those stumps to decay, and not to resort to any artificial means for the purpose of clearing the ground of them.? — It is altogether the practice ; if you were to clear one acre of ground, and leave it tt» itself, it would all grow up again ; but if ybu till that ground, tlie growth of the timber is prevented. 3701. Are the Committee to understand that the constant destruction of the shoots of the trees has the effect of ultimately destroying th^|pkts ? — It has. . . <. {Tht Chairman praented to the Committee, Copy of a Letter from Sir Peregrine ^Mmtland, L^fttenatU Governor, Sjc. Sgc. ^c. ; and the tams teat read, at -foUmt:] ■ , _ •-•;■;;:...'■,., ■'-■-■■■--,.;* " COPY of a Letter from Sir Peregrine Maitland, Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Upper Canada, to the Right honourable The Earl Bathurtt, K. o. dated Ufper Canada, 6 March 1827 (with two Enclosures.) " My Lord. Upper Canada, York, 6th March 1827. " I HAVE been requested to forward to your Lordship the enclosed Ad ires3^ which is subscribed by many of the most respectable Inhabitants of the district of New- castle, in this province, in which the Emigrai^sent from Ireland by His Majesty's Government in 1825 have been placed underWe direction of Mr. Robinson, who will have the honour to deliver this despatch to y^ur Lordship. " I have no doubt but your Lordship will derive satisfaction from the further testimony thus afforded, of the success which has attended the undertaking, and of the grateful sense enteruuned by the older Settlers in the colony, of the benevolent attention to its prosperity shown by His Majesty's Goveftiment, in promoting Emigration to it from the United Kingdom. " The Earl Bathurst, k.o. " I have, &c. (signed) Fttn RMmtam, K^- , 10 May, 1817. " P. MaUland:' " To the Right Hon^** The Earl Bathurst, k. g. &c. &c. &c. His Majesty's ^, Principal Secretary of State for the Colonies. " The undersigned. His Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects. Magistrates and others, residents in the district uf Newcastle, in the province of Upper Canada, beg leave to express to your Lordship our firm attachment to His Majesty and the Mother Country, and the unfeigned gratitude which we owe for the sedulous atten- tion exercised for the prosperity and welfare of this Colony. Among other important benefits, we wish more particularly to express our sense of the obligations we lie under to His Majesty's Government, for directing an experimental Enngradon under the superintendence of the Honourable Peter Robinson, to this district. " We feel more strongly induced to do this, because un&vourable reports affect- ing the character of that Emigration have gone abroad, and which (although erroneous) have received weight from being mentioned in one of the legislative bodies o^ this province. It would be an act of injustice, not only to the promoters of this measure, and those to whom its execution was intrusted, but also lo ths '55»- ' Y y a emigrants, >s I A lU'l * m^' I. ^1^ Pittr IMmtoit, loMajr, ]/ ' ^> \ 356 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMI'ITEE * emigrant! thrniselves, did we refrain from contradicting those injurious reports, and expfessinf our opinion of the general^ccUence of the measure itself, as well as of the individual good character of theViass of persons conipobing that emigration. " Whatever conflicting opinions may have heietofore existed un the question, whether iiersons translated from the. British Islands into the forests of Canadi would succeed as settlers, or not, theire cannot now be any doubt un the subject. The Irish s^^tlers placed in the midA of the wooda haire already acquired sulficient of the habits of the country to Enable them to meet all their wants by their own labour,>and, having successfully combated the iftfficulties incident to i first settle- ment, have before, them a fair prosp^t of comfort and indtpendence. " Hf uch of this is'owins to the indefat^able excrtiorfB and unwearied diligence of their superintenident the Iftnourable Peter Robinson ; hia judicious location of the emigrants' in an interesting part of this fertile district, his a|tQntion to their wants, his perseveranee in ovcicomina obstacles, and his humanity to theib generally, have raised his character high in the estimation of those who have now the honour of a^ressing your Lordship, and have endeared bis name, as a fyend and protector, wi :h all the Emigrants. > > " We feci much pleasure also in expressing our sense of the judicious and liberal aid afforded by the provincial Executive, in the establishment of public Schoolr, and in the erection of a large and valuable Mill in the very midst of the new settlement. By this, the greatest, mdeed almost only difficulty which the settlers themseNes could not have surmounted, is overcome ; and they cannot do otherwise than enter* tain a grateful feelinfl^r the Government which has so generously aided them. " In conclusion, we would beg leave to represent to your Lordship, that there are still extensive tracts of fertile land unoccupied in the vicinity of the late settle- ment, and that if the success of the present experiment should induce His Majesty's Government to continue tlie system, the arrival of other settlers from the British islendfl under their protection will be hailed by us with joy, as a further proof of their beneficent designs for the well being of Upper CanMa. " We have," &c. [Signed by 60 Individuals.] tid.r.iV'- j^Iatiiks. yoty H-^i,- Il'EE p*rts, and wiill aa of [ration. ; question, >f Canad4 be BubJ^ect. 1 tutficieot their own first tettle- liligence of ition of the leir wants, ;rally, have honour of I protector, > « and liberal choolr, and settlement, themsefvea than enter* I them. that there I late settle- is Majesty's the British tr proof of livSduab.] . &c. Asphodel, country by le Honour- Drdship our ship's kind nguage can fine and Mti^a com- ss we have' ions, taking -ience, with It, notwith- our families 1 appointed i used every the Govem- emment we Dst respect- iid suffering feeling, be als.] ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 357 " To the Right Hon. Earl Dathurst, His MAJcsty's principal SecretaryKf Slate for the Colo^ks. " May it please your Lordship, " Wf the undersigned Irish Emigrants, located undCT the superintendence of the Hon. Peter Kubinson, In the townships of Eniilv, Smith, ana Bhnismore, in the district of Newcubtle, yppier Canada, most huml)ly beg leaVe to exfttess to your Lordship our deep sense of gratitude to His Majesty's most gracious and bountiful Government, for the cheerful couf)>etency we now ei^oy in tliis happy portion of His Majesty's dominionsi * . ' " Having now resided about a*twclvemonth on our lapds, we have every reason to be thankful for the excellent locations assigned us. And wo trust, notwithstand- ing the*difficultie» oui* hiexperience has had naturally to contend fvitb, tliat the iiivestigation our worthy Superintendent has caused to be made of our actual im- provements, will not be uninteresting to 1 1 is' Majesty's Government, particularly to your Lordship, whose zeal in furthering emigration to thu province is so eminently conspicuous. ' " We take this opportunity of expressing to your 1,-ordship how much of grati- tude we owe to the Hon. Peter Robmson, eur leader, our adviser, our frjend, since weliave been under his direction, particularly for his exertions in administering to our comforts during a season of sickness and privation. * " We b^g to assure your Lordship of our loyalty and attabH^nt to our gracious. Sovereign's most sacrea Person and Government.' * " Emily, Dec. 20th, 1426." , [i^gned by 90 Individuals.] * " Right Hon. Earl Bathurst, Secretary of State for the Colonies, &c. &c. &c. " Please your Lordship, " latb December iSab." " We the undersigned Emigrants sent to Canada by Government in i ^25, and settled by the Hon. Peter Robinson in the township of Douro, beg leave to express to your Lordship our sincere thanks for the distinguished kindness we have expe- rienced. We have been brought from a country where we had many diiSculties to contend with, and supported here to this time, at the expense of Government ; our every want has been anticipated and proviA| for, and independence not only brought within our reach, but actually bestowedupon us. " We have furnished*our justly respected Superintendent with a particular account of what we have done since our arrival, by which your Lordship will per- ceive what we have accomplished, and that we have not abuse'd the goodness of Government by idleness. " We trust our orderly conduct as members of society, and steady loyalty as subjects of the British Crown, will evidce the gratitude we feel for the many favours we have Aceived - That the blessings of a grateful People may surround the throne 6f His Majesty, is ^be sincere prayer of '? - " Your Lordship's mdst respectful humble Servants,", [Signed by 53 Individuals.] * Mr." J3«fw not at all propitiuut to the growth ol grain, particularly wlicat ; thrrr is hardly any wheat whatever gro'." jcluw Quebec ; tliere are very hue lands, and very pruihictivi; laiid», but they g. no wheat. 37ub. What would prevent eniigruiits pru8|)ering u|>on lands which mig^t not be favourable to lliiKgrowtli of wlieul, hut Mhicli would he tavourahUi to the growth of other sc^ts rttcorn? — If the emigrants are habituated to luheiiei, they would perhaps succeed better below Quebec than eUcwherc. 3707. Without reference to any distinction a| to locality, do you generally concur in the opinion, that if emigrants go out to those provinces, and receive the Govcrit- ment assistanc'j that is contqfnpiated, that thtey, would bc-able to repay, after a given period of time, the sum which has been stated r — I have not the least doubt of it, particularly with the encouragement that was recently given by the change in the Navigation Laws, which gives toihe Canadas and to the British provlrtces of America the advaiitoge of the exclusive supply of the flour and biscuit to our own colonies in the Wcs*. Indies. 3708. Have you any doubt a& to the general opinion that exist throughout the colonies, of tHb advantages of a well directed sytiten) of Emigration ? — I have 119^ the least doubt upon that subject. - * " • 11, It' ' 4> m^ Sabbati, 12* die Maii, 1827. R. J. WILMOT HORTON, ESQUIRE, > trUlittm Couling, Eiq. II May, 1887. ft *,^ • t IN THE CHAIR. fVUHam Couling, Esq. called in; and Etamined. 3709. YOU are a civil engineer and land surveyor? — I am. 3710. You are a Director of a General Association, which professes to be esta> blished fbr the purpose of bettering the condition of the manufacturing and agri* cultural labourer^, to secure the property and promote tlie welfare of all classes of soclet , by the encouragement ofindiistry and reduction of poor-rates ? — I am. 371 1. In the progress of your inquiries, have you turned your attention to the waste lands iaGreat Britain and Ireluid ? — Particularly so ; in proof of which, I beg leave to deliver in to the Comniitt^Ki general statement, which I have drawn up, of the territorif4. surface of Great Britain, Irel^and, and t^ adjacent islands. rr/re fVi^nus deUoered in the same ; which wot read, os/ollowi :] A GENERAL STATEMENT of the Tekritobial Sukface of Great Briimn, ' Ireland, and the adjaceAt Islands ; exhibiting the Quantity of Cultivated Lands, . of the Wastes capable of being br(^ught into a state of Cultivation, uid of all other kinds of Surface unfit for the production of Grain, Vegetables, Hay or Grasses. — May 1827. . ^ « * " k . . • EXPLANATION. * ' Cotumn lit. CoLTiVATio.— The arable landi, gardens, meadows, and paatiyes. sd. Uncultivated.— The waste lands that are capable of bein^ converted into arsble lands, gardens, luedfiowi or pastures, (a) For planting, tee. ^ 3d. U)ipaoriTABLS. — The aurface occupied bj roadi of every cIsm ; lakes, rivers, ^ canals, rivulets, brooki, &c. ; towns and villaseii ; farm yardi and all other vacant spots, as (juarries, ponds and ditcnei ; hedges and fences of all kinds ; clift, craggy declivitie8,«tony places, barren spots ; woods and plantations. » ' 4tb. SuMMARV.— .The amount in statute acres of the three preceding Columns, and of '' course shows the superficial area of each county. . (a) Two-thirds of the several quantities stated may be considered as applicable to the 1st 'Column, and one-third ur planting young trees, and the future procuration of 'turf, pest, &c. V for fuel . . *« . A'ii*«.~.4>.Thia,niark is made against those districts: which have not beoi travelled over by •j,jnjrself. w. c. rovfncas of lo our own ON EMIGRATION PROM THE UNITED KINODUM : 1637. 159 ENGLAIU). f ■ ■ * qoinrriis. INufuffU Iterki . Puckinghani Cimbriilg* Cheshire . Cornwall Cumberland Derby De«m ' - Donet - Durham • Eu«c - Oloucatlar Hantt ' Heferord Hertrord - Huntingdon Kent Lancuhire Leicetter Lincoln • Middletex Mbhrnouth Norfolk . Northampton Northumberland Nottingham Oxford • Rutland - Salop Some net Sufford • Suffolk ■ Surrey Suuex ' - Warwick ^ettmorland Wilt* Worcerteii Yoikihire Cultivated. Acitr. 348,ocx> T 80,000 >.oop 500,000 394,000* 550,000 670,000 500,000 1,100,000 573.000 500,000 900,000 750,000 904^000 495.000 310,000 330,000 900,000 850,000 480,000 » 1,465,000 « 55.000 870,000 f, 1 80,000 555.000 9uo,oo« 470,000 403,000 89,000 790,000 900,000 560,000 U'i 0,000 400,000 635,000 510,000 180,000 500,000 400,000 3,500,000 35,633,000 UnculliTalml. Acm. 31,000 75.000 5,000 17,000 40,000 190,000 150,000 100,000 MPiOOO >5,ooo 100,000 10,000 6,000 80,000 34,000 8,000 • 3,000 3O,00O 'i 00,000 5,000 r 180,000 17,000 30,000 78,000 50.000 160,000 38,000 50,000 1,000 30,000 88,000 85,000 88,000 50,000 170^)00 30,000 iiB.ooo 30^000 3«!boo 600,000 3,454.o»o < n Unprofitable. tl'MMAHY. w ■ Acrai. 17.330 38,840 38,()O0 33,130 aH,38o i%a8o 105,930 56,ti40 • 50.560 45,300 7!».040 . 70,460 47.840 61,930 ig.Q'o 13,800 63,68a 131,840 39,660 ii*7«o ' 8480 18,730 8o,88t> 45.880 '37,440 ,37.680 38,380 5.360 48,340 63,880 89,730 59,680 35.«30 141,540 37,«8o 198,930 183,560 36,560 7 > 5.040 3,356,^ IfiiliMi OMte A i« Mati • 4* « ^ Acnt. 39*330 4»3,li4«' 471.600 54 673.380 84!), 4X0 945.^0 650,840 1,650,560 643,300 679,0*0 080,480 803,840 1,041,930 550,400 337.9*o B36,ioo |i8.68o 1,171,840 3>4.66o 1,758,710 180^ 3'8,7«P 1.138,880 6(0,88o >,« 97,440 535.080 481,180 93.360 858,a4b 1,050,880 734.700 967.680 485430 936,330 677.98p 488,330 883,560 p6,66o s.oy 33,343,400 ,1* * •1 , •» *, ^ * • * ■•4 . '7 • .^ • >^LES.»* • • > COUNTIES. M. f Cultivated. * Un^tivated. Unprofitablo. SUMMARY, Acrei. Acni. Acici. 4cni. Anglesey ... 150,000 lOjOOO 8ojboo 13.440 178.44a ■. Brecknock ... 300,000 103,560 •483,560 .-• Cardigan *- -' - 345.000 80,000 • 107^)00 433,000 Carmarthen . . - 34«.000 60,000 , 331:360 633,360 Carnarvon • < • i6o,o88o ' 506,880,. , Merioneth . . - ' - 350.000 30,000 .':•;. '90 • ♦«1'3!'» Montgomery ... 340,000 ' 100,000 ,t(^\i(:0 536,960 . Pembroke ... 300,000 * 30,0UO /MOO 37,640 , 390,400 • S73,d<0 Rkdnw - - • - - 385,000 ■ 10,000 »"7,ooo ^ 530.000 1,1Q5,000 4,75«.ooo * •> % ' ♦ a '♦ EmGLAMD AND WALES. « '^ TOTALS Q||lint\ ^ -A " >." * ' WitUmn Cvdmg, 360 MINUTES OF EVinFNCK BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Otncral Suumani of iht Ttirilottoi Burfkcc of Urttt Rriuin, Irf land, liC.—4.fl90 87,300 Oao,ooo «0.4oo 917,000 37.S<'o 117,600 30,000 1,094,000 41.870 13,130 954.480 141,800 1i,08o sfl.ooo 46,400 6o4,330 34.940 999.880 « 57,600 53.390 6a,(>6o 379.5O0 %9,cfio ■(JklMARY. 1.593.930 Acni, i,avo,74o 1.439.OO0 1,034,000 3*0,000 38,1,600 165,000 395.O80 30,730 3!).«tt«» 147,900 1,153,000 330,400 537.«Jo8 • 333,560 537.600 160,000 9,944.000 809,870 53.»«0 504.480 556,800 71,680 is8,ooo 930,400 1,656,330 •54.940 ".775.830 457,000 168,390 319,960 1,193,560 188,960 •y.738.030 m • « mI'^* /•;''* IP larloir Cavan - • Clare - Cork - * Donegal Down - Dublin - Eatt Meath ^ - e^ Kattraeatn - • f .^ *■ ' ♦ t fcrmanagh - - '. . *. • • • """y • >" ■* ' ' ', • 4 i*' Kildare ,' ^ Kilkenv - V - — ♦ ' * w if » • Leitrim '-''"'* lif Limerick emyr • . 1 King*! County. - M- fti * ** • %l»ndonderrT ♦ '■'*'♦.. '. tongM .. - * **'•<> "• Louth .'- " " ••'",«; •.Mayo — ,r »- ' '. '-'^ . Monikhan, - * .; 4-C S"ee*^ County " s .-'■».•. Rotcommon • ' V • B***y '•" "• •*^ • *rron« — • •-» .; WatetfUd-.-r. ' <• « WeilMe^ -' - ■ . ■■'-.■ rs-;>t^-*.# ? Tz^ Wexfiwd \-\ -. '■■■ -^ IRE — 3-« LAND. Cultivated. Afitt. 336,400 , i66,abo IM.000 • 90^400 679><)po i,ii8,aqo 507,000 349.000 159.1W * 465,0% 354,000 839,900 550,3(» 959.990 •403,100 34H3\^i> , M9,950 460,000 379,400 ^«i.900 157,000 • ***''??" 34?.«*«(. »43,5«» (>a3,ioo 34816*; »8i,ooo I3,I95,380 Uncultivated. Acm. 318,870 99.430 . 34.000 1 00,500 104,400 |afii,ooo ^7,990 #96,170 4B.99.0 40,130 130,500 539.040 348.4«o ■87,670 58.100 8(^900 138,9^ •* 114,110 i79,o|ib 4*M&> i9,«bo - 565.570 .• 19,qao* ' 47.«9o l«(,46o 11 in llf«.o U'nproiitable. AcKk 119,130 51.933 ♦ 15.091 Ol j90 88,044 "50,056 » 75.951 89,481 91,071 96,078 84,689 «4«.479 144.483 35.875 95.367 34.954. «'4.l89 ra 5S963 , 10,415 919,303 91.959 93,966 91.113 66,953 J%399 ^1.988 33.01^" 36,581 J 58.838 6i.79« t] 9,4ie,6fi4 SUMMARY. Acm. 674,406 309.663 399,091 487,090 a .444 • .056 1,100,871 564,651 • ^30,191 531.1^8 459.189 -, 1.603,719 1.Q49.193 383.535 486,667 . 457.104 *f 414.639 696^35 . 531)084 417.393*' r 179.415 • 1,980,779 990,959 • 381,186 561^73 400,383 899.019 766,998 495.756 375,1*1 . » 655.49* 604.70^ ■9>44)^ • : //, ''% A C ,1 ENOLA^ WALES 8C0TLA IRELi^ BRntSIl Totall • • accon Tht empin couati 550. ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UMITED KINGDOM; tUj. 361 Qmmtl Suicmmi of the TwritorMl iv«fke» of 6rut Briuia, Iralmd, liC-toitlimuJ. WiUnmCmMat, ^m BRITISH ISLANDS. , * ' _ ■ ♦ r 4 NAMU. " '' CulUvaUd. • UnpruflubU. lUMMARY. , km*. V Awn. A«m. 140,800 • Mm . M,ooo a3.«» ^ fli,8oo • Scilly * • Janey • OuariMcy • • AMcrney . • 8«rk, «ic. *c. • 08,C9O 3I>0MI 30.«i» •3M.3W ' » • Orkneys . . -l ■nd \ • ShMland . . .J 130,000 119,000 516,000 «4>,ooo • 383,690 166,000 569.469 1,1 10,159 It May, il«|. • « II • j;.-. . RECAPITULATION. t Cultivated. Uncultivated. Unprofitable. \ UUMMARY. AorM. Acni. Acrti. Acm. ENQUND • 35,631,000 3,454,000 3,956,400 39,343400 WALES ... ft 3,117,000 530,000 1,105,000 4,75«,ooo* SCOTLAND - 1 5,365,000 5,<>i0,00O 8,5a3,fl30 >9,738«30 . IRELAND 19,135,380 4,900,000 3,416,664 19,441.944 BRITISH ISLANDS • 383.690 iCC,ooo 569.469 i.ii9.*59 46,5«».970 15,000,000 15.871.463 77.394.433 !i A GENERAL STATEMENT of the Superficial Area of Great Britain, Ireland, .'/ and the adjacent British Islands. "^ * r .TBRRrrORUb DIVISIONS. Arable Luid ■nd Oudent.* Mmdmi, Pwtiuu, ■nd UnealHntad WMtet eaptbl* of ' lupraraaniC Annuel Velm ofmch WulM tolbtlr prcMBl lUM. Sur&e* inupibleeriay kind or InpramMat. SUMMARY oftieh TerritorU Olrition. SlatoM Acm. Statute Acm. Sittui* Acm. SttrUalrJeandt. StntntoAcrM. StilnuAerM. ENGLAND - 10,359,800 J5.379.»oo 3,454,000 i,70O|0(»> 3 3,396430 530,000 1,105,000 4.759.000 SCOTLAND «,493.950 9.771.050 5,950,000 i,68o,»oo 8.533.930 19.738,930 IRELi^* - 5,389,040 6,736,340 4,900,000 i>395|00« 3416,664 19,44»,9H BRITtSH 181 AND8 - • < 109,930 974,060 i66',ooo a^ooo 569469 1.119,159 -., tf- 4^.135.990 ►«J,386,98o 15,009,000 5,000,000 i5.S7i.443' • ' 77,394.433 * The arable landi and gardena, added to the meadowi, panares, and marahes, will correapond.with the p. Totali exhibited in tbe preceding Ti^ca under the head Cultivated, in tke lit Column. > , ' * * The Pound* Sterling stated in this Column are the result of calculation* made for each county, and ', according to the pretent value of such lands in their present Uncultivated atttf. The preceding information has been oi>tained from numerous excursions ipade from various parts of the empire, and amount to an aggregate distance of upwards of 50,000 WIes ; embracing the greater part qf 106 counties, and 1 1 other%that I have partially travelled over, from 1796 to 1816, lynd from 1834, to 1837. 550. London, \ nth May 1837. J Wmiam CoK/iw, ivilEi Zz Civil Enginoer and Surveyor. ^i^ * # -« tFUkarn CmMng, l«M«y, 1887. * * * hi ^' 36a MINUJES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 3712. Was this paper drawn up Ijy yourself in your private capacity, or as one of the Directors of that Association, and by their direction ? — In my private capacity. I drew the whole up from minutes of my own, that I have been collecting for upwards of twenty-five years ; but 1 told the society that I would draw up a paper o^ that sort. 3713. Upon what document, or upon what personal inspection, is that statement founded ?->Upon my own personal inspection of 1 1 7 counties, 1 06 of which may 'le considered as inspected three-fourths, and eleven partially, which I have stated in the paper ; with respect to the remainder, I have consulted the besc authorities to which I could procure access. 3714. Are the number of acijgs which are stated in this paper with regard to Ireland, English or Irish acres i — Statute acres in every instance. 3715. Have you compared the account which you have given of the uncultivated acres in Ireland with the account contained in the Report of the Bog Commis- sioners r — I have ; an opportunity was afforded me of seeing that Report upon the Bogs of Ireland, which state them, some in statute and others in Irish acres, amount- ing to about one million and a quarter actually surveyed, and about one million aAd a quarter that had been inspected, none of which were of bogs under 500 acres, nor does the Report contain mor6 thftn one-fourth of the whole territory of Ireland ;' with respect to the inspection of part of then: ! find that it was done precisely in the^ame way that I inspected them myself. 3716. You make a division between' cultivated and uncultivated, what descrip- tion of land do you include in the uncultivated which is not included in the Report of the Bog Commissioners ? — I consider all lands as uncultivated that are not in a manner fenced round, or that have not some particular boundary to them ; I do not say that it is all common land, but as far as I have been able to judge, I mean that it is uncultivated land, not common field land ; probably much may be private property. 3717. What is the difference, generally speaking, in point of fertility, between the lands which are headed uncultivated, in your "Rible, in England, Scotland and Ireland ^ — I believe the uucultivated land of England may be considered as more valuable than that of Ireland ; I consider the uncultivated lands of Ireland as much more vt^luable than the uncultivated land of Scotland ; that will be explained better by the annual value which I have put to those lands. 3718. On what data have you come to that conclusion? — From my own inspec- tion, and from y having f>rst turned my attention, when a young man, to the question of the waste lands ; in consequence of not having been bred a farmer, and expecting through life to have to attacli values upon land, the subject of wflste lands ' has been with me, from seventeen years of age, a perpetual subject of amusement and inquiiy. '^ 3719. You have stated that the uncultivated waste lands' capable of cultivation in England are more naturally fertile than those of Ireland, and that those of Ire- land are niore naturally fertile than those of Scotland ? — I conceive so. 3720. Have you any calculation of the capital necessary at the present moment to bring those wastes into a state of average cultivation for labour ? — Not exactly, but I have data upon which I could furnish a pdper of that sort ; but I find, on reference to the Parliamentary Reports drawn out by the gentiemen who were employed in Ireland, that they vary so much in their estimates, that I hesitate in bringing the thing for- ward ; but I should be happy to furnish it according to my opinion and belief 3721. The mode probably of doing it, would be to select some county in England, Ireland and Scotlapd, and then to give the details upon those particular counties ? — That would be the only wa^, and that should be done by two persons^ so that thi'scs ; I think this country is eaten up in a manner by horses, and were the internal communications of the country improved, that there would be much more land left to make use of in this country. , 3750. When you speak of the cultivation of the waste lands, where do you sup- pose the money to come from with which to cultivate them ? — I apprehend the money can be found in the same way as to pay people that arc dependent upon the parish fur support ; as money can be found for that purpose to such an enormous eictent, it could be found to cultivate three or four millions of acres of waste lands. 3751. Then the money which you consider as applicable to the improvement of the waste lands, is money which in th " present state of things is applied to other 5^0. Z z 3 purposes ? Eh. ifl May, 1897. r. It i 1^ li ! WiKam Couhng, £«,. II May, 1817. -y 3*6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMirrEE purposes? — I apprehend that would form a considerable source from which the money ought to be brought. 3752. Supposing that the money which b now employed in other matters, could be employed, in the present state of things, as profitably in the inclosing of waste lands, how do you account for it not being so employed at the present time r — Because persons are frightened against beginning to inclose lands ; they know that the expenses of obtaining an Act, and various other local expenses, would swallow up the money before the land could make any return ; and there is another thing which is an obstacle, the payment of tithes. I believe that all the attempts of the country to bring about the inclosure of the waste lands without some compromise being made with respect to tithes, would prove abortive. 3753. Does it not almost uniformly take place with respect to inclosun;s, that in the cases of such inclosures a part of the land is set aside for the purpose of glebe? — It has occurred in many cases, and it was proposed in 1809, 1810, and 181 1, in Wales; but there were so many differences of opinion about it, that they could not agree. 37.54. In all cases of inclosure is there not an exemption for the first seven years from the payment of tithe ? — I have heard that contended against. 3755. Have you had an opportunity of reading the Evidence which has been recently laid upon the table of ihe Hoi|«e of Commons, taken before this Com- mittee ? — I have partially read it, I have not read it with the attention that I mean to do. 3756. You would perceive in that evidence, that many persons on the part of parishes have expressed their conviction, that in the case of able-bodied paupers who arc permanently chargeable on the parishes, and the expense of maintaining whom, in the proportion of a man, a woman, and three children, is estimated at the least at 25 /. per annum, that it would be worth while to raise 60/. or 70/. by annuity 011 the parish rates for the purpose of removing those people to the North American colonies, provided they were consentient to such removal ; those wit- nesses appear to consider, that inasmuch as the expense of the annuity would not be more than 10/. per annum, whereas the annual expense of the parish in supporting those paupers is 2^1. per annum, they would immediately obtain e saving of 15/. per annum upon the parish rates, and at the end of tcii years the annuity would have satisfied the original debt. Supposing it were suggested to those parishes to raise the same sum upon their rates, and to apply that sum to the cultivation of , any land within the parish by any principle of husbandry which could be suggested, are you of opinion that an equal economy would be produced by the one system as by the other ? — No, I am certain that it could not ; I am decidedly of opinion that the first proposition would be the cheapest, but whether it would be the more 'beneficial would be another question. 3757. Is the Committee to infer that it is your opinion that ther^ are large masses of uncultivated land in England capable of great improvement, which would yield a large interest upon the capital employed in improving them, but which remain in their present unprofitable condition owing only to the proprietor wanting capital ? — I thiuk it may be said it would yield interest, but I would not say large interest. 3758. Would it yield more than the current rate of interest? — Yes, there is no doubt about that, upon those lands that are fit to be brought in. I presume the question refers to the farming system ; there is a wonderful difference in the return that would be made in the small portipns that would be brought in through spade husbandry, to what there would be by the plough, for I would not recommend more than from three to four millions of acres to be touched with the plough. 3759. If it would yield a remunerating profit upon the capital employed, how do you account for it not being so expended? — It is owing to the sort or impression that I have found to exist in the country for the last three years, as to tithes and other things, and the unsettled state in which the Corn Bill lias been in the country, that I believe has operated in a great measure, some parties supposing that the whole of the land would be thrown out of cultivation, and others saying that the waste lands are worth nothing. 3760. If your opinion is so confident as to the remuneration to be derived from the cullivation of those lands, how do you reconcile that with the opinion that you expressed, that they would not repay in the event of money being laid out in the locating of paupers upon them, as contrasted Avitli a system of Emigration'^ — Because I apprehend that locating paupers requires a house, which house destroys every thing ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 367 thing that I have to say ; my idea is, thut if you were to allot about four acres to each person, I would say in a moment that would be the best m ; hut the man must have a place to live in, and I believe it would cost at least 25.'. to build a cottage and appurtenances. 3761. Then you consider that there are no portions of waste land in England which it would be advantageous to cultivate, by settling persons at present desti- tute upon them ? — It would be impossible to settle persons upon them witliout building houses. There are districts in this country where ihe population does not appear to be redundant, and there are other districts where there is not a sufficiency of population ; the idea of the Society was, that it might be possible to have a sort of local emigration by sending parties there ; but as it would be neces* sary to provide them with a Residence, that would take as much money as to bring luniis into cultivation. 3762. Do you know of any persons, or proprietors, or corporate bodies, that would give a portion of land to Government for such a, purpose?' — I do not, certainly. 3763. Granting for a moment that the poverty of the labouring classes arises from their large numbers, are you not prepared to admit, that adding to the number of buildings, and subdividing the land into small plots, would add to that evil?— It would, were it not in the way that I wish to do n, by transferring parties at pre- sent living in small, close and confined habitations ; it would be an extension of the people without increasing that evil, poverty. 3764. While the present law of settlement exists in England, would not such a transfer of the poorest classe,^ from one part of England to another be beneficial ? — I think so. 3765. Are you aware that it is proposed to ^ve to each family a portion of land, to tiie amount of 100 acres, in the colonies ; what do you suppose would be the proper quantity to give to them in England, upon the plan you propose? — I propose that the parties here should have about four acres, enough to supply them with vegetables and a few other things ; not to make small farmers of them. 3766. Do you know that that very system has been one of the great evils of Ireland ? — I apprehend that the evils with respect to Ireland are to be sought for in a very different source ; I believe they arise entirely from the corrupt system of administering the affairs of persons who have large estates there. 3767. Then you do not apprehend that any great portion of the evils of Ireland arises from the great subdivision of farms? — I believe the subdivision of farms can be no otherwise an evil than in this way, a man that has too little land to support himself and family must of course labour, but a man that has a portion of land which neither makes him a small farmer nor a labourer, I think is likely to receive no great injury. I look upon the evils of Ireland to be many ; and certainly the system of having five, six or seven masters, who have all an interest in the land, may operate, and does operate, very much to injure the peasant. 3768. Under the proposed system of emigration, the Government would give to each of those individuals 100 acres of land, now the property of the Government, in a country where they could easily get every description of materials necessary to build a house, and to cultivate the land, and to become in a short time capitalistsj; but in your cottage system you could not accomplish that object unless, you could give them such a quantity of land as would bring them within a different descrip- tion of persons than what they now are? — I have considered that point a good deal, because the proposition for locating persons in the Canadas is precisely similar with districts in Russia which I have seen ; the parties there at first clear a large wood ; and I know that the expense at which they could be located in Canada must be about the same expense as it would cost in Russia ; but I have not yet been able to make up my mind to say what the political object of the system is ; but having been for months with them in the woods, clearing them, in Russia, in different parts of the empire, I am very well aware that they have wood, which is excessively dear here ; they have likewise food quite at hand. In fact, nine poods and t; pwards of flour, about 400 lbs. weight, I know in some districts of the Russian empire will be sold for about three English shillings, and the highest sum that I believe could be brought forward would be twenty-eight shillings ; con- sequently, taking the medium, it would be much cheaper than even they could get it in Canada ; but at all events that operates materially against laying out sums in locating them in England- 3769. Your opinion, then, of the relative cheapness of the two systems is de- cidedly in favour of eniigratioa to the Canadas, in preference to settUngthem upon 550, Z 2 4 the n- 'Uham Cauling, Etq. I a May, 1817. i.ii 'if m I i s I ' \ W 368 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE mttiam Coulug, Biq. .P '>\ :. !»'■ IS Mty, t8*7. Mr. Benjamin tFilU, the waste lands of England, but you think that that is counterbalanced by political ^ reasons ? — I think that it admits of no doubt whatever that the location of persoos in Canada would be much ciiuaper than locating them here ; I think that may be considered as finally settled. , Mr. Beijjamin Wills, formerly a Surgeon, since an occupier of several hundred ,., acres of land, chiefly his own freehold, in the counties of Kent and Surrey, called in; and Examined. 3770. YOU are a Director of a General Association to which the last Witness belongs ? — I am a director and honorary secretary. 3771. When was this Association formed? — It has been formed into that shape rather recently. 3772. It is stated in a paper which has been put in, that the names of the directors of the General Association will be given at the next public meeting, have those names ever been given ? — The public meeting there referred to, has not taken place. 3773. Then, in point of fact, are there now any directors ? — There are some directors at this time. 3774. How many persons are there constituting this society ? — ^The society is formed of two parts. 3775. How many are the directors? — The directors are about five. » 37""3. How many are the members of the society ? — The other part of the society, which is the central committee, is composed of eight or nine more. 3777. When was the first association of those individuals formed ? — Ten years ago the elementary part of the society was formed, but it was formed into this shape on the 1 9th of February last. 3778. Have you any funds for the purpose of carrying the objects of the society into effect? — Certainly. ^^ 3779. Is the whole extent of funds subscribed ? — That is at it is wanted. 3780. Then are the Committee to understand that the whole society consists of the directors and of the central committee? — They are the organs, because, in pro- portion as the society's communication extends through the country, they have per- petual accessions of persons in the different ramifications of commerce througliout the country. 37S1. How many communicating members have they at present, who belong to the society ?— They vary ; one week there are fewer letters arrive, another week iTiOre. 3782. Does not your commitiiee publish resolutions, with a circular, illustrative of th ?ir views, and transmit the same to all the trading societies in the kingdom to which they can communicate ? — It does. 3783. Do you not make an appeal to landowners, merchants, farmers, manufac- turers and shopkeepers of every description, for their assistance in bringing the views of this Association before Parliament? — Yes. 3784. Do you not recommend a general association of the employers and the employed, for the purposes of furthering the views of this society ?— Certainly. 3785. Is not one of the principles of your society, that it is expedient to establish a minimum of wages of Sabour ? — It is. 3786. Is it not also a principle of your society, that it would be expedient to transfer a great portion of the taxation, which bears upon commodities of subsis- tence and comfort, to machinery generally, and steam in particular, with a view of diminishing the productive power of the machinery, and thereby benefiting the manual labourers ?— With a view to enable the community at large to subsist ^ better. 3787. You state, that your -object is to produce a fair and adequate remuneration for labour ? — It is ; that is th*. cardinal point. 3788. You attribute the reduction of the wages of labour, as well as the poverty of the labouring classes, to the system of individual competition ? — We conceive that the wages of labour have not for a considerable time been sufiicient, either in agri- cultural or in manufacturing industry, and we conceive that we can point out what the remedy for the evil is, wiiich will, witliout any emigration, replace the labourer in the situation in which he ou<;ht to .stand in a free country. 3789. Do you admit that the supply of labour is much greater than the demand, and consequently that the price ot labour is lowered in consequence of the supply ! exceeding the demand : — I do not subscribe to that, for this reason : We will go back to ON EMIGRATION FKOM THE UNITED KINODUM : 1837. 369 to the time of the war ; the deniand for labour then was more than adequate to the supply of labour, which at that time naturally should have produced a favour- able effect upon the labourer's condition, but it did not ; at that very time, the poor man was thrown upon the parish. Now wc conceive tiiat it is a most unsound state of society, that in proportion as the landed interests were gaining, and when the price of wheat was so high, that the poor man at that ver^ moment sliould be taken and flung as a tub over-board. We conceive that nothing can be sound in any country without the foundation is sound, and that a free country cannot subsist long without some protection being afforded to the lul>ourer, which protection was given by our ancestors, and which existed down to the year 1813, nominally, when the legislature destroyed the ]>ower of the magistrates over the wages of labour, by which the labourer obtained the command of two bushels of wheo*^ per week ; he had twenty-four quartern loaves per week even at tlie time of the Revolution. What is the reason, that when we arc so much richer now than we were then, that the labourer is the only man that is to be thrown down in the midst of the riches and affluence of the nation. We contend that this is not fair, that the labourer should share in proportion with the rest of the nation, and that his circumstances should be better in pro|)ortion as the aggregate wealth of society is increased. 3790. Is the remedy that you propose any legislative interference, regulating the amount of wages of labour, and protecting the labourer from the inconveniences you have alluded to ? — That is one of the remedies. 3791. Is there any remedy distinct from that? — There is, 379-2. Is there any remedy which you wish to suggest to this Committee, tliat will be effectual, without a legislative interference, to regulate the amount of wages? — Certainty nut, only in part. We can make the labourer better off without the interference of the legislature ; but it is a legislative interference that we are looking forward to. 3793. Is that a cardinal point of your system, a recurrence to what you have considered the ancient policy of tiio country, by establishing a legislative interference as to the rate of wages ? — That is not the only point, because we do not conceive that the country is in exactly a state at present that any one remedy can meet all those exigencies. 3794. Do you consider that an essential part of your system ? — We do. '•., 3795. It appears that one of your resolutions is is follows, " To the influence of a ruinous system of individual competition in reoucing tlie wages of labour, is to be ascribed not only the unexampled poverty and misery of the labouring, but the embarrassment and ruin of the mercantile and trading classes." What do you there mean by the words " individual competition," do you there refer to the case of a number of persons offering themselves as labourers or artisans at whatever price the capitalist can afford to pay them ? — If I were to attempt to reply to that question I should not do justice to it, as it is not my precise province to enter into that part of the subject, and I beg to refer the Committee to another gentleman who is here. 3796. Is another essential part of your system, the imposition of a tax upon machinery, with a view of enabling manual labour to come more into competition with it? — It would to a certain extent have that effect. 3797. Is that a part of your syste.n ? — I will not call it a tax, but, lifting it from the necessaries of life to this power, is part of the system. 3798. Though you will not call it a tax, is this one of the Resolutions of your Society, " That this meeting cannot refrain from expressing its unqualified belief, that much good would result to the country at large, and to the working classes in particular, by a transfer of a great portion of taxes on commodities of subsistence and comtori, to steam power and machinery " ? — It is. 3799. Is it another essential part of youi system, to interfere by legislative enact- ment with the unbiassed effects of competition of one workman with another, and of one employer with another ? — I conceive that the farmer and his labourers are persons that it is necessary to interfere between, iiia)>much as we cont«mplate not merely one object but several, to set the nation upon i^s legs again. 3800. Have you any practical knowledge of farming- — Some. 3801. Have you personally iiispccteil any of the waste lands in Englandr— I have seen them. 3802. Have you made yourself acquainted with ihcir quality and their extent, and in short are yoi) personally acquainted with the real situation of such waste $55- A a a , land? Mr. Betijamm ffi'Ui. 11 Miy, i8«7. ' ,'. (' u\ , Hi" >\ • Mr. Btnitmin WUU. i8h7. 370 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE knd ? — I have seen the effect of an Indosure Bill, of 6000 acres, in a parish wbnw I reaided. ''^ 3803. In what parish was that situated ? — At Croydon. 3804. Do you consider the quality of that land to be superior, or inferior to the avera^ quality of the waste lands of Great Britain? — I should suppose they are superior to the average of waste lands. 3805. On which side of Croydon does that land lie?— At what is called Croydon Common, which is almost a town of itself; and a large mass of it in Norwood. 3806. That is a strong clay land, is not it ? — There is a good deal of clay there. 3807. What was the state of this land at the time the process of cultivating it began ? — It was principally furze. 3808. What were the rights that existed upon it ?— The inhabitant householders elaimed it ; by the Indosure Dill it was stated that it was uncertain whether as inhabitant householders they had a right, but admitting they had no right, they were to set aside so many hundred acres for them ; but the freeholders, the leaseholders, and copyholders, had allotments made to them ; and where an encroachment had existed a certain number of years it was permitted to continue, and if it had existed a longer term of years the possessor of it had an allotment. 3809. Could you state what was the estimated value per acre of those waste lands, to those parties who had any use of them prior to the indosure ? — I should feel a difficulty in doing that. 38 1 o. Are you able to state what was the total expense of this indosure, from the period at which the land was entirely waste, to the time at which it was in a perfect state of cultivation? — I would not wish to speak to the expense; but I can speak to the effect it has had upon the circumstances of Croydon ; the effect of taking away the rights of those poor people has been, that I have seen 900 persons summoned for the poors rates. These are the facts that I wanted to substantiate to- day. By the destruction of the common rights, and giving no remuneration to the poor man, a gentleman has taken an immense tract of it and converted it into a park ; a person in the middling walk of life iias bought an acre or two ; and though this common in its origin land was formerly. We find by a statute of Henry the eighth's times, that the farms were not to be beyond a certain extent ; we find that in Cromwell's time, Cromwell was told that a irreat number of commons had been taken in, which had rendered a number of persons unhappy, and he ordered them to be opened again ; on a certain day they were opened. Then if we can build bridges, and if we can make canals, and run over private properties upon a hundred different pursuits, I say that for such an immense object as this, at this time, which will stand in the period of history as a most awful time, we might offer a bonus such as we propose ; we do not want to touch private property without compensation. 3812. Do you contemplate the indosure of other common lands in England, which would not lead to the same consequences which you have detailed with regard to the indosure of the lands at Croydon ?^-Certainly it is not the method that we contemplate with respect to the commons of this country, which Mr. Cooling has been stating should be taken up in this way, viz. We first of all offer, by a general indosure bill, the parishes themselves to come forward in their capacities, and ask for acts ; when that is done, a commission appointed by Government should step in, and, armed with the Act of Parliament, should be empowered to say, A certain quantity of this land is wanted by the nation at large, for which you shall receive a compensation, the same as when bridges are built and roads are formed, or canals executed, in which it is a sine qud non that it must be done ; we say this land is necessary, the object is vast that we contemplate, we are not going to do you an evil but a good, inasmuch as you are over-burthened with poors rates, and you say you have no employment, and what we are going to do is by the creation of employ- ment, to render those people useful to you and a comfort to tbemselvcis. We will take ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: i8«7. 371 take a county or a liundref). Some of our lettere co to prove that Mr. BoMitquet the banker says, a hundred would be a better regulation than a parish ; but we wiU take a county, and in this county tliere shall be a certain quantity of waste, which ihe commiasioncrs shull take by an Act of Parliament ; there are two sets of them, one in London, the other local ones ; the local commissioners shall state, We want for the employment of tlie (>oor in this district a certain number of acres, and we will make a compensation lor it, by arbitration, to the various interests. The land i» now, we'll suppose, bom Me the pro()erty of the State ; the State instantly says, We shall pay you the annuu interest of it, nwsmuch as the State says wlien it goes to war. We cannot pay you the principal, but we will pay you the interest of it, you sball receive the interest of this money regularly for Uie estimated value of those Und^. We then go on to state, tliut the commissioners having appropriated one of those patches of land, and having seen how many labourers are wanted, and cut out a considerable quantity of it into small farms, they tlicu ofier it to the public al lar^e ; and then we would call the optional capital of the countcy into exertion, that capital which is now floating, and which requires to be employed somewhere. We say to every person who wants a farm, Here is a iiundred acres of land for you, on here is fifty acres of land for yon, and you shall tiuve this for thirty years ; you shall have it free for the thirty years, but here are the terms, the leases are to run so and so ; you shall erect a farm house upon it, you shuU create two cottages upon this land, and to each of those cottages you shall annex a certain quantity of land, say an acre of land ; ull this time he is to have it free ; but when it comes in again at the end of the thirty years— I will not pursue it beyond the thirty years, but if I was to inter- fere then, I think the value of it would be seen still more. We say in addition to this, that the connnissioners will stick on a bit of land to evc^v cottage at present in existence, that every agricultural cottage shall have a piece of land. I could load the Committee with information of the importance of the cottager's renting a portion of land with his cottage, it keeps them buoyant, and it keeps them iuduslrious, therefore we contend that every one of those cottages shall have a portion of land. But this proposition with respect to the waste land is an imperfect thing of itself, without you combine another of those things with it, which I have just stated, which is, to establish a minimum of wages for agricultural labour ; without that, the avarice of mankind is such, that the labourer will still be in the same state whatever you may do for him. Our object is to gc 'jack to the times of the Revolution, or to the time of George the first, when the labourer had a legal claim from the ma- gistrates of a certain quantum of wager ; in thj year 1732, he had got two bushels of wheat a week, innsmuch as tiie price of v neat was 2s. Qd. and he had got 6«. a week. Now I do contend, that if the capital of the country can be brought into exercise in this manner, it is a much better mode of employing the waste lands than any other way. But if it is said, how can he be protected m bis wages if the farmer cannot afford to give him those wages, I answer, that the farmer would be able to give him those wages, inasmuch as be would be a consumer; when he is better off, he does not hoard his money, but he spends it, so that you would have one hundred millions a year in circulation more than you have at present, which, doubled and trebled, would produce the effects that I state. 3813. From what sources do you contemplate the advancement of the capital which is necessa.y to effect this purpose? — From the persons in tlie country that want small farnis. 3814. If there are to be commissioners, and surveys, and houses built, a con- siderable expense must of necessity be incurred ; the Committee wish to know from what sources you contemplate that money so expended to be raised in the first instance ? — Individual capital. I stated they were to have the land for thirty years gratuitously, but that tliey should be compellable to erect farm-houses upon It, and tlie buildings that are necessary. 38 1 5. To what source do you look for the payment of the value of those rights that are to be sacrificed ? — We pay for it something in the way of exchequer Wlls, inasmuch as the Exchequer Bill Loan Act says, we will assist in public works. 3816. Are the Committee to understand that you propose that such expense should be paid by direct contribution from the State ? — I do. 3817. Do you intend that any interest should be paid to the State for the money so lent ? — At the end of the term the State would have a fair claim to be repaid, and it might at the end of thirty years be very properly repaid, because those ^rms being made all useful and productive, tlie occupier having been repaid aU his outlay, he would be in a situation to effect that object. fllBK^ ^ Aaa2 3818. Then r 37a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE llEFOHE SELECT t(> WITTEE Mr. Bttffamm WUU. i< May, U17. 38 1 S. Then till the ^jtiretioii of thirty yean you anticipate no repaym»^l? Not to tlie Slate, cxcc|it in the indirect advantage that .iif. aweek wuul make one hundred niilliont in circulution in the countrv, 38 H>. Vou contemplate no direct rcpaymeni i -^fori i.hirty years have expired? — No direct repayment ; but every carpenter anu orickluyer that was employed in building thi^ immenie torrent ol'hnus s that would be wanted through the nation, would all he purchasing mnnufortures and purchft»iiig exciseable articles « ^icb they con not purchase now. 38 JO. The capital, the udvanceinent of wiiich you contemplate with a '>««* to ™pi.;cci in iiucli more iboiir i8 far ; su uihIit lid be pur«' rhom It it c purposes id, nuw the ider which ) pail with ivided into 'arms upon he space of should be t lie should tached two )e8? — Yes. res, should )wnlow has It informed bout; they lich is, that ibout poors I about, for a class of Lcres for an lots should hat parties ibbles. the preced- ;es for the able wages, dren should ;r to beg or ^en, we nnd le power of two bushels icres, which 000,000 of his goose, :alline upon placmg the g his wages; lyou ;" but it Glasgow, he shall be }830. Then ON EMlGkATIDN KHOM THE UNITLl) KINGDOM: 1837. 173 3830. Then you conceive thnl a poor man has a |)crfcct rif|iit to marry, without any Mr. reference to the circuiiistHiice of his being ubie to provire than he AV« i* iiMwt to protect «U iti wi^itcti ■like. " , ; [Z%f f9^itneu delivered in the/oUawing EeHmaU, which va$ read:]^ ESTIMATE of the ExMue of lointing a FaiaUy« eomwtiog of a Ifaa, Wifc, M<^ three Chluiteo, on Weste Laodi, m Great &rekm. • 1 . Transport of the family of five peraons, say 50 imafla on the average, from the place iriMr« tbey now Mr. TAmim Wright. m reside, to where they mightjie^ttled torsi "' ' 3. Mechanical implements w a. Implcmento necessary lots to each family ipade hui^Mndiy of 4-acre 4. Household and cooking furniture requisite - - 5. Cottage, cow-shed, pig-stye, according to the medium rate of expense - - - - - 6. Potatoes for planting - . - - - - 7. Provisions for 13 months, taking into calculation milk from the cow for 6 months - ' - 8. Cow and pig ------- 9. Bedding, blukets, &c. 10. Proportion of expense of superintendence I' 1 - d. 1 10 . - 1 10 - ao - 4 - 80 - - 9 - - a - - - 10 - 60 - - Produce of Four Acres ia Spade Husbandry: One acK in potatoes - - 300 bushels At a/ One ditto in wheat - - - 5 qrs. at 60/ Products of cow, for which one acre is retained for grass, and one fiw hay - - - • ■^ - Products of piff, poultry, &c. - - - - - Span time of wbourer and faoiily, worth - perann. 30 10 5 10 70 - - AT the end of the second year two crops may be obtained from a portion of the land, and in the third year an additional cultivation, which may be the commence- ment of paying off the principal. Signed, (H) b^alf of the Society for Encouragement of Industry and Reduction of Poofs Rate^ King's VmA, Poultiy, Betg. ffrUU, Hon' Sec'. Mr. TKomai Wright, catted in ; and Examined. 3846. YOU are engaged in the nail trade ? — Yes. 3847. Have you been compelled to dismixs a great numoer of labourers ?— 'Yei^ 3848. Is not the reason of your having been so compelled, that you could pot obtain a remunerating price tor the articles which those labourers produced ^-n- Yes. 3849. Have you any expectation* in your particular trade, of being able to employ the persons with whose services you have parted r — Never. 3850. Do you concur with Mr. Wills, that one of the remedies for thi|jtate of things would be to compel you to pay a higher rate of wages to those labourers whom you still employ?—! think there is no respectable man in the trade wW> would willingly pay less wages than would enable the labourer to obtain two bush^ of wheat a week ; but it would be infringed upon by the unprincipled men,' who are ireqently contractors ; the respectable men say, forty out of forty-two would agre^ to it, but those two would infringe upon it I have a printed circular in my band 'from a . person, stating that he Vill serve me thirty per cent cheaper than any otlM;r man ; and I find it is dated from a work-house. 3851. Are you not prepared to admit, that if all the capitalists eqgaged in th(B -Mil trade were to pay a higher rate of wages to their ktbourers than tbey now, do, it t^;r M QN BMlGBATlbN fSOi^ 3)^ ^IflTlB KINGPOm/iSsV . S79 - ■ . *• . . • *' •*•♦..• • • it ihrould bo>itip«yUM'forjtben toth^ price of tiy coimBodity, ^lia tbmfoN mU the coDsumen would purchaae that cpm- 7hM» inodity>t that i&refied |iHc«ili^I (fe not tUInk thej «o«ld, the c^nd^men 'would ^^^ >> mrt gay one fartmDg isore ^atApehny nails { ^^, are tenpeony naUa now, and ** ' th^ were'tenpenny nul? a hagdred years ago, (hat ^ ^•peoce per hundred. ■ 385a* I»it a matter of indmer|ace to youla a capitalist, whether you pav your . prdknt labourers the rate of wages which yob now* pay them, or an increased rate t -^We should rather pay them an incrtHed rate} it would be 00 disadvant^^ to usj but the contnury. • ** _^ • 38,53. Do you mean to say that the toflkumer paying \he same orice forihe article, the capitalist would equally benefit under the one state of things as the other? — Y*es ; %nd I say it is a pleasant thins for respectable manufacturars to see the cheerful countenance of the men that combine together, that will not be tram{)led upon ; which is now the case with the horse-nail makers. 3854. Are you of opinion that the interest of the captaUst in this country who •mpio]* labourers in manufacture, would not be afRsotcd by raising the wans tgr legislative enactment to a certain mininum ? — I am quite certain they would not ; every manufacturer would rejoioa to see the day when he was allowed to set a fair price to the labour of his men. • 3855. How would that afTect the case of those persons whose wages are partly paid out of the poor rates? — If there was a minimum of wages, it would not be m the power of any man to deprive the labourer of bis just rews^, when we haye settled it among oyrselves to do that ; there ought to be a law strong enough to enable the man to 00 before a magistrate for taking Mmd him so much of the wi^s of his labour, whira I consider to be m every respect hb property, and ought to be protected before any other property in the country. 3856. Do you conceive if a le^lative enactment were passed, that would have a tendency to raise the wagBs of all labourers, that the consumer would be aUe to consume to the same extent that he now does ? — He would be able to consume tea times more than he does now, for the poor are the labourers, and let them consume in any one thing, say a farthing a day, it would amount to three millions a year, as the annexed Table will clearly diow ; if it was aagu, it would take sixty thousand hogsheads in a year out of the market ( [!nefMmmg Ptfer teat ddhend in hjf the WHueu, find read.] *•» \ ^ : .flit; .^1 5^0. Aa.a4 "The ~snT-~rwy^^ ■i^^^^^limgiB^^skiiQtB[£^ki^ V. f J ♦ id^'' *» .>•' k. S76 Mr. r««Mf rr«/l/. '■ t * . MlNtJTES'0P ByU)£NGlS • * •• •> •.■*• '• *•* * " thelow Pnce oftl .♦•: :.:ir'^^ - mectx^oMftrmig' BOUH— the Ciiitfe*or«ffMjcl:« l vistmiw'* ' V IF thci.ti8«fu| ellipses of society -were tp pceifri^roper wa|;eMfor theii^abou|r|! . the^ yiouiS purchase Afore x>f.tbe'n«ce8sarijps -of life, -and tticfeby increaM thecoa* '. sumpUon of agricultflral (froduce and jnanufacturet't^KMi inovense extent : which tb^ anoCXeft Table will cjearly gimyv* If,/or inatani^, every ipdividual .wareiftbled to procure a pair of stockings, or a yard of flannel, of the valutf of one chilling, onn ftt' * a yeai^ It woOld create an increased deinandin- tbosr trades'of four Jiundred thod*' sand pounds per jnnupi ! * Artd, if ea^ is deprived of the means of laying out ohfy ontfpenny per flay in prmithns, "such as bread, cheese, potatoes, beer, &c. — the farmers, in consequence, lose customers for their produce to the aj^ouig of tteehe miilUnu one hut\dred and tirty-iix thotuand sLr hundred and seventy ,pt>und$ thirteen thiUingt and -four -pence sterling annually ! f '^. " It is also worthy of serious consideration, that by having reduced the wages of the poor labourer four shillings per week^— you have withdrawn from ciroiilation fifty-two millioiu a year 11%. . •. * " N. 1). It is consideted that there are Five millions of labourers, making with their families Eight millions. , 5,000,000 8,000,000 d. £. «. d. d. £. 1. d. 1 per Day is it 1,001,041 13^ 3,803,083 6^ per Ann. \ per Day is is 3,0^,667 13 6,083,335 6 t per Ann. , 1 — ;. if 7,604,166 13 ,, — ■ tl — ia 18,166,670 13 4 — . ' a — ii IS.908,333 6 8 — 8 — is !>4i333*34> 6 8 — 3 — ii aa,8ia,50o - - — 3 — ia 36,500,013 - - — 6 — • is 45,635,000 - - — 6 — is 73,000,034 - — — la — is 91,350,000 - - — 13 — % 146,000,048 - - — d. i perWeeV d. 1 i< 970,833 6 8 per Ann. per Week is 433*333 6 8 per Ann. i - is 541,666 13 4 — — IS 866,666 13 4 — 1 — is 1.083,333 6 8 — 1 _ is 1.733.333 6 8 — ,. t — • is a,i66,666 13 4 — 3 — is 3,466,666 13 4 — 3 — is 3,360,000 - - >— 3 — is 5,300,000 - ■ - — 6 — . ii (1,500,000 - - — 6 — ia 10,400,000 - - ^ 1 — it 13,000,000 -• - __ 4. 1 .^ is 30,800,000 - V ^^ 3 — is 36,000,000 - - • * ■ a — is 41,600,000 - - — 3 — is 39,000,000 - • - — 3 — is 63,400,000 - - — U - is 53,000,000 - - — 4 — is 83,300,000 - - — S — is 65,000,000 - - — 5 — U 104,000,000 - - — 6 — is 78,000,000 - - — 6 — ia 134,800,000 - - — 7 — is 91,000,000 - - — I — is 145,600,000 - - — 8 — is 104,000,000 - - — ' — >•> 168,400,000 - - — lO — is 130,000,000 - - — 10 ' — 308,000,000 - - — d. I per Yeai d. 1 pfrAnnt is 5,308 6 8 per Ann . per Y. 8.333 6 8 i - is 10,416 13 4. — ia 16,666 15 4 — 1 — is 30,833 6 1 i 41,666 13 4 — 1 '— ia 33.333 6 8 *^^f* a — is — 2 — is 66,66613 4 i^ 3 — is 63,500 - - — 3 — - ia 100,000 - — W 6 is * 135,000 - - — 6 — ia 300,000 - - t 1 — ia 350,000 - - — . •1 ' ♦ is 400,000 - ^ f __ 5 — is • 1,350,000 - - — » 5 — is 9,000,000 - .— — 10 — is 3,500,000 - - — 10 — is 4,000,000 - - — so — is 5,000,000 - - - j 30 is 8,000^000 - '4 . .:. " In 1732, the price of agricultural labour was settled by the magistrates at ii. shiUingtper week, and in the same year wheat was at two ahiUing^and nine^pfiabe thebushel.^ «, '\ " In 1835, the price of labour was nine shillings per week, aadi^heat at nine; shillings per bushel; therefore, each labourer obtained -the value of''one bushel of wheat less for his week's labo# in 1825, than he received in 1733. * ' '/ " There are five millions of labourers in the United Kingdom, an(f^a bushel of wheat is now worth eight shillings. If, therefore, the poor Here to ha'^e tfae bushel of S See tfao Geutleinau'i Magazine^ vol. a. «r wbmt ItiibMd to ik^ (wMcKlMf>%lne'h^ dtprivf/liflmthe dper^wiu of-the Com BthttiJiBxr^miM \ m9 ^ mA ^ hty ouf on<*fiundred and Toiif iilillions an- DiMllr'jvibrftnaB ^e^at piMeft do with the'otber claues«( society, andf tliereby * }ttjMf*\\ Tot iamt^, fhtj wvukKe able fo mrchase of pne hundrii} and ibur .thoonnd i%tatl shopkeners* one ut with ten thousand four hundred wholeslle . tnui||^ten thoAand pf^ annum:— jind thQ lenihbwsalld four hundred wholesale traders would pdrcbase.of five thousand two hundred manufacturers, twenty thou- WLod a-year: olkkins^ the whole tf circulaticn of three hundred and twelve millions; (he profits * on >hicn\ould be nearly eight .4ime» as much 'as th$ prdfits on the whole of our export trade. Thus employment would be found for elf the useflil classes, wHo aroraow so miserably distressed, and the comfort and happiness of the community at lar^ would be greatly incretued; poor's rates, in a great measure^ abolished ; and crime, the invariable consequence of low wages, prevented. " Wheat in February 173a • - - - a3«. to 25«. per. quarter. — March 1732 - - - - 20*. to 22x, - - ' d*. 1 '(■ (From Gentfeman's Magazine, May 1732.) " Yearly Wages appointed by the Justices to be taken by the Servants in the county of Kent, not exceeding the following sums : Head ploughman, waggoner, or seedsman, per annum, 8/.; hismlb, 4/.; best woman, 3/.; 2d s^of woman, 2/.; ad ploughman, 6/.; his mate, 3/. £. *. ♦. Labourers by the day in summer - 1 a , Ditto - - - - (Winter - - - . - - i - ' By the Justices of Gloucester : * / Head servant in husbandly - '- • • per ann. 5 - -> Second servant -- - 4— - Driving boy, under 14 years of age - . - - 1 - - .; Head moid servant in dairy, and cook - - - •• -• 3 lo - • Mower, in l)arvest, without drink - - . . - ' pert.brin&jl(i nails ? — No, if you have a proper free*trade, that is, if you let com coiAe in n«e ; What is cloth, but a little wool and a great deal of bread. If the laJMuwrs were [Hoperly remunerated, I consider there would be a larger consumption of^HMls ud of ^very thing else. -. 3859*\)ut pf. whose pocket u the extra price of labour to be paid?— Out of the conauin^; .the poor qien are the great consumers in this countay; if they are enabled tq^etni: any thing idore than would purchase common food, they would be al>le to'puLii. '•* • ♦ " 3860. Hpw will your system enable the consumer to pay a higher price for what h<> consuiOe^?— :£itner.yoamust rMse the price of wages of labour, or you must to«wSr - the -pritfs of breads 550. ' Bbb 3861. Do *• .^- ■ * A %«. ]\ \i' I ■'I Mf.. If May, »7l *MINUTES OF EVIDENCB pttOpt S^I^BCT COMMlXfEI^ . 3861. i^.yoli think bread is the only thhig,ffte price of «phkh wouM IM reqairoA to be lowered P-'Bread is jlitf real vslue ot everjftMni; aH labour is bread-, ^v«ry thing is bread ; our clothing is all bread, except ai(jilw%ro(t. ^ ^^')'!i .3867. pjp yo« k'fiQw that the, price of clAhiiTg hu ^iin)Dlshed wil^in th^^lftM* huDdre^«years, in ^nglyid ?-«^dlrt say it ti'aK , ^ ' *. ^863. Would & rise^in the, price of agrfcultural' laboi^ cheayn the*wice of' bread ? — If there is a rise In the pritfe of agricultural labbar, that will enabll the( labourer and his family to consume more. ' 3864. Your object is to lower the ^nce oCwhea^ and ii#order -to effect that iroii would raise'the wages of the agricultural labourer?— My object is, that the abourer should have the wheat at a fair price, in order that the jf rge mass of the, people should be able to consume the growth of the country and the manufacture' of the country. , . 3865. Your object is to lower the price of wheat so as to bring it within the reach of the poor man? — No, you may raise the man, if you please, so long as he has it; but if you do not lower the price of wheat, you must recollect that the articles which we have been talking of, which are nails, are nearly all bread ; and unless you can lower the price of bread, the Foreign trade will be lost ; unless they can be made in this country as cheap as in another, do not expect American^ olrders. mftis, 16* die Maii, 1827. R. J, WILMOT HORTON, ESQUIRE, IN THE CHAIR. i '' iir IT. K. Comaji, E^. 16 May 4 -t . « « '• , WUliam Richard Cosway, Esq.* of Bilsington Priory, Kent, called in ; and Examined. 3866. WHERE do you reside ?— In London, and occasionally in the county of jtent ; ^art of my property is in Rouiney Marsh and in the Weald of Kent. ' 3867. Will' you give to the Committee the details of that parish ? — I have. got< t^ detailed statiembnt of the statistics of the parish : containing its different sorts of aericultiirevthe number of persons that have received parish relief from 1811 to 1826 } ,,and the number of marriages, births and deaths, and the whole population of the 'parish ; with the number of cottages, the number that have been built within the last .thirteen years, the costs of building, and the yearly rent which they yield : It also states the amount of the poor-rate in 1818 and at the present date, and what the.rate was in 1793. {The Witneu detimrtd in the iame ; which unu read, at fidhmn :] " Bilsington Parish, Kent. — May ^ 8^7. Whole e*rish - - - J - a,700 Acres. / ■ Anible , - - _ ' 570 ' ''*■- Pasture - -' - - 1,580 ;• Wood • - - - - 550 ^ ' • * * 2,700 ^ I \h 181a 1813 1814 1815 1816 Number of Persons receiving Parish relief 39 38 24 30 40 56 1817- - 1818 - 7iH!^ •^819 - - 1820 -: • .1821 - -. 1822 - . 70 105 «30 ioo no 100 i8«3 1824 1825 1826 i8»7 ■ ' 4 ' .-166 - *v - l«a '•mr: Ot/'SllIGRATldN PROM THE UNITED KIKODOM: iSat. 3^9 i8ii* i8it 1813 1814 •Wis 1816 1^17 1818 1819 iSao 1831 183a 1833 1834 »^as i8a6 MuriigM. T a .a 3 1 6 5 . 5 a 1 ■ a 5 3 3 5 49 DMtbi. B«|i«i 10 8 6 7 11 5 13 H 4 13 II 11 >4 16 156 « ^ < 15 May, Whole population of parish in 1821 » - 21)9 persons. D* ^ 1827 - - 335 d' Number of labourers now employi^ 59 Number of labourers without employ, 10 . i Wages of men employed in husbandry, ia«. per week, winter and summer; women earn, in summer, it. per day; children, from 35 M»y, llf7. .3B0 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTBB / be entirely out of employment, for whose lalmur no real denwnd eiists, bat wh» are in the habit of receiving assistance from the pnochial rates? — The eighth labourer unemployed, with his wife ahd two children, would cost 36/. per annum ; if there were three children, it would cost i«. a week more, which is a 8/. \2i, 3873. Supposing that that labourer and his family could b« removed to the North American colonies with their own entire good will, and that the parish were satisfied that an extreme probability existed of their being successful when planted in such British colony ; are you of opinion that the parish would be prepared to mortgage their poor-rates for a definite number of years, paying annuity interest for the sum of 60/. or 70/. which might be necessary to defray the expense of the remoVal and location of such iomiBrant labourers ?— 'I have been applied to by certain labourers of my parish to get Uiem sent out to the British colonies. I have mMe a scale, from the evidence already submitted to the Committee, by which I can prove to them that the expense of sending a man, hiif wife and three children, to Quebec, will not amount to more than two thirds of the whole annual expense of the same family to the parish. But before I advance the money, I require a security that this call shall not be repeated within four or five years, tiecause if the call is to be repeated, after two or three successive calls the parish would become burthened with all the old, the weak and the disabled, as well as children who are orphans or have even lost their father, as those must necessarily be left at home and create a permanent charge to the parish, for the emigrants must of course be strons and able-bodied men. My wish is to impress upon the CpmmittA, that unless we have some security by Act of Parliament, we should have to go over the same ground again, leaving all the disabled and iMktless upon our bands. 3874. As a parishioner, Wmild yoU consent to pay that annuity of 10/. or la/. a year for ten years, upon which a sum of money might be raised amply sufficient to locate a labourer linder circumstances which would be sufficiently to bis' advan- tage to tempt him to. avail himself of emigration ; by the terms of the proposition, the saving would be the difference between 10/. or I'a/. and 28/. i3«.,.and it would be foe the parish to take care to prevent the vacuum being filled up by the introduc- tion of fresh labourers into the parish ?— Provided the Act of Parliament that we expect to come out will, in our opinion, suffiuciently protect us. 3875. What provisions do you look for in that Act of Parliament, «Rcept the main protection that siich emigrant, availine himself of such assistance, should ^>t» Jacto be deprived of all claim on the pariui for the future ? — It being understood that.be can have no farther claim upon the parish if he were to return. I appre" hend that a tax on cottages, to a very considerable extent, would be the bestnpeans of preventing early marriages. There will, I apprehend, be some difficulty in set- tling what amount this tax should be ; and I think that after it is so settled, the ap- peal should not be made to the nettv sessions, but rather to the quarter sessions ; of course 1 am speaking locaHy, it will avoid collision with the magistrates in the immediate neighbourhood. 3876. Will you explain the principle of the tax.you are now suggesting ?— In this parish, .1 intend, the moment an Act is passed, to ^uU down some cottages } but th» larger proprietors pulling down cottages, until an Act of Parliament is passed, will in fact be a premium to the little holders of land to build others. } have a scale here of the expense of building a cottage, which varies from 70/. to 80/., and the rent will be 4/. to foiir guineas. 3877. Will you explain more in detail your view as to the circumstances under which such a tax should be imposed ; is it intended that all cottages, according to a presumed estimate of the price of tbeir construction, should be rated at a certain rate ? — I would propose that the tax, whatever the amount may be, should be fixed by* two successive vestry meetings, with a right of appeal to the quarter sessions ; I look to the right of appeal to the quarter sessions as indispensable. « 3878. You propose therefore that each parish should be the judge of the tax for its own particular cottages? — I say so, because in the working of the machinery it is desiriable that the feelings of the parish itself should be in concurrence with, the Act of Parliament, and I think if they were allowed to lay a tax upon them- selves, they would lay it on much more heavily than an Act of Parliament could do. 3879. Do.you intend that the proceeds of this tax should be paid as part of th* parish rates ? — Yes. ' 3S80. The Committee are to' understand that your view is, that if the proco^dr of this particular tax w^re to be applied to the general purposes of the country, it '' .would 'wmmigmimmi^^^'^'i^ Olf EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 381 wouid not be likely thit tho peritii would impose it upon ttteimclvcs, so much as if it were directly ■pnlicable to the purposes of the |)oor-ra(e?— Decidedly. 388 1 • Are the Comuiittee to understand that your view of the (question is this, that if there was a real demand for labour in such a narish, and if it was manifest that tlie interests of the agriculturists or of the taanutacturers required an increase of labour, in that case they would be prepared to reduce such a tax to the minimum, or to remove it altogether, and that precisely in proportion as they felt the con- trary, they would be prepared to impose the impediments by increasing it? — That is the principal reason why I would have the parish lay the tax on. In this parish, Sir Edward Knatchbull and myself are the principal proprietors. Every one must know that all charges and outgoings come ultimately upon the land ; and in fact it is the Iandl6rd that poys it, because his rent is in proportion to the return, after all outgoings are paid. 3883. Would not your object be, in proposing this tax on cottages, to raise the character and condition of the labourer r — My idea is, that by reducing the number of cottages, you will necessarily reduce the population ; because 1 think that the system of putting men to work on the roads, which has prevailed in so many parisheSi has interfered very much with the character of our labourers, and if it is continued for any length of time, that we shall no loneer get an Englishman's day labour ; my meaning is this, that they are set upon such job works, tliey are not kept to a good day's labour, and after three or four months thev get such lazy habits that you never after get the same quamty of work out of the same individual. There is another chanoe that has taken place, and that has affected very much the character of our lahounng population ; the labourers no longer^ive in farm-houses, as they used to do, when they were better fed and had more comforts than they now get in a cottage, in consequence there was not the same inducement to early marriage, because if a man up to the age of twenty-five or thirty had been accustomed to live in a better waiy of life, he would consider twice before ho married and went to live in a wretched cottage upon potatoes and tea. , 3883. Are not the farmers now getting back to the practice of taking labourers into their farm-houses? — I should say that they ore beginning to do so at a con- siderable distance from London ; I am connected with Devonshire and Dorsetshire, and I see seme symptoms of returning to that better system. With respect to a for- mer question, as to taxing cottages, and the improving the moral and physical state of the labouring classes, I consider that one of the great advantages of having two vestry meetings to levy this tax would be, that every individual having the smallest property in the parish will begin to take an interest in the subject. Itie idea of emigration has always a certain influence upon the lower class of society, but I think that when the thing is fully explained to them, it will cease to be considered in the light of a punishment, if I may so call it. This parish of Bilsington, of wbicli I am b^ far the largest proprietor, came into my possession in 1 824 ; the whole parish is 3700 acres, and only 570 acres of it arc arable. This point is connected with the Corn Laws, for if the price permanently averages less than at present, the .distress of the labourers will increase, as the arable in a great measure will be turned into pasture. In 1834 I came into possession of this property, previous to which year the parish had paid iso/. for rent for the poor; in 1818 'Je poor-rate had been -733/., but in 1836, from not paying rent, and other causes, ii vision as has been mentionmi, which would make the owners of oottaoes diraclly Interested in bringing persons into the parish of good and providaot baoita, w«uM have a beneficial effect upon the tnoral chafacter of tbafoerf^I think tiMt in Ike •gricultural parishes great attenticm is paid aow io tbe awval character of the indivi- -Uuals that receive the poor-rate. 3888. Would not tbe pra ^Won which has been meotionad, strengthen k ?— I think it would. 3889. Suppoaing that it were to be demonstrated that complete success, avcranly •peaking, atlmded the eminranU who were sent to the North American colouiesy consequently, that no able-bodied man permanently wanting employmeni, oo«M iafa'ly complain of that want, provided facilitius were given tu him to emigrate, do you not think that the notoriety of that cnvumstance would furnish an •pportuoHy tor repealing that ver^ objectionable part of the Poor Laws which now imposampoo the parish the necessity of maintaining an able-bodied poor man, when he happens -to be out of work ; you will not understand that such a repeal is contemphicd •» would prevent casual assistance, but you will un^rstand the question as having ' regard to permanent assistance from year to year?-— Considering as I do that tlie f ^r man, if he cannot 0Bt Employment, has a right to be maintained by the parish, i ' 'nk that any Act of PafNament which altogether did awajr with that right under 'such circumstances, should have some provision to meet accidents. 3890. Supposing a new Act of Pariiaroent to take place, and that the question 'merely affected the administration of the parochial rates, do you think that th» same quantum of allowance which in now given by magistrates under tbe dwum- stances of a poor man applying for assistance, who, although willing to work, can find no employment, would be continued when it was matter of demonstration that by removing to the colonies he might be placed in a situation of independence, ■without coming upon charity for his subsistence? — As far as my opinion goes, I would in that case brin^^ him uown to the very lowest possible standaird of relief-; 'but, once set emigration m activity, let its principle be well explained, and there would be no feeling of hostility to it. 3891. You are aware that at this moment a great disposition to emiorale exists both m Scotland and in Ireland, and that this disiwsition to emigrate arises mainly from communications which have been received from those who have gone out as emigrants, and who have written to their friends detailed accounts of their succeu? >— I understand that is the case. ' 3892. If an indisposition to emigrate is now found to exist among the English poor, do you not consider that if a few families were to go out, and to be successful, imd to write to their friends detailed accounts of their success, that much of that natural prejudice, which may exist at the preserit moment, would progressively be re- moved ?— My opinion is that it is already partially removed ; I have been applied to by some persons in my own parish to be sent out. I have a letter which Sir Edward KnatchbuH gave to me, which contains somethipf| to the same purpose ; it is from Mr. Curt is, relative to the parish of Smarden, m the wealds of Sussex ; it is as fblbw^ : " The population of Smarden, by the census of i%ai, was 1050. * Since -June 1822 eighty-nme persons have emigrated from the paridi, to the province of New York, in America, namely, sixty-one at the expense of the parish, and twenty- 'eight at their own. - The expense to the parish for the sixty-^ne was 400 /. Out of the whole number, twenty-one were labourers, and the remainder women and chil- 'dm>. It is now nearly >o years since the last of the sixty-one went out, and none of th^m have returtied ; on the contrary, from the frequent accounts that have been r^peived from them, it is certain that tidey are all doing welt, and therefore never likely to return. No more of the 400/. which was borrowed for sending those people to America, was paid off in any one year than it was calculated thi^ would have cost the parish had they continued in it ; so that no occupier could have any reason to object to the money being so employed. Notwithstanding so many have quitted the parish, there are still in the winter months many latMNirers 'oiit of employ, but the number is considerably reduced. It docs not appear that 'the places of those who have gone to America have been filled op by stran^rs from other parisha ; as « proof of this there ^re at- this time «ight cottagett empty, ' ■ ■ .. • - •' -^-c-.'And PBE I no kind rion who cb •!»<>• • dinctljr iMtinthe the hidtvi- h«»it?-> •▼•ngtly ) colouiesy ml, oo«M igrato, do pportuaHy MMt'Opon lehsppMM nphitcd m u having 9 Uwt Uie the p»riab, right under le question ik that th» he civcuoi- work, MO tration that cpendenee, inion goat, d of relief-; . and there srate exitts ue* niainly gone out w sir success? the English ; successful, luch of that tively be re« n applied to Sir Edward ;. it is from ex ; it is as D50. * Since province of andtwenty- 0/. Out of en ud chil- BDtout, and Its that have fld therefore for sending culated4hey cupier could hitanding so ay labourers appear that by' str«ng|ers tagett enip^. ■V o'and ON EMIOMTION FEUM THE UNITED KINODUM: iVt?. 3I} aad it is thought the poor are not in such close quarters as they lately were. In the years ittai, iHaa, 183J, and 1844, ilie (Mwrs-rate was ia<. in the {wuiuJ, last Ear it was only 9*. ; this raduction is probably owing principally to the emigration, ght more paupers will leave Smsrden for America on the 1 jth of May, mmely, three labourers and five wome>i and children : thus ninety-seveu will have left llie parish in all." - ^^i- Are vou prepared to infer from that letter that tlie expense of sending emigranis to the United States is so small, that it would not be likely that the parishes would consent to incur an additional exdense for tlie purpose of removing them to the British Colonies in North America P— 1 have already stated, that even that calculation is far beyond what I believe to be necessary. 1 have belonged to the navy many vtars, and therefore the subject is nut a new one to me ; but from t(i« calculation 1 have made, 1 apprehend that, according tu Mr. Astell's offer for freight, in your 3d Report, a man his wife and three children, one of the children to M a little under fourteen and the other two under seven, could be sent out for fourteen guineas, excepting blankets and hammocks; I have lately understood that the calculation of the Victualling Board, for sending convicts to New South Wales, scarcely differs from the calculation I have given m to the Committee. 3894* You will be aware that it would be impossible to suppose that an Act of Parliament could be passed which should exempt the parish from all future claim on the part of the emigrants whcLwere sent out in this manner, taking their chance of success according to the demand for their labour in the country to which tbev are sent i and undoubtedly nothing could be less fisir than to prevent parishes applying their fvnds for the purpose of effecting this removal ; but upon examining the evidenca which has been taken before this Committee, you will find, that although that may have answered in thousands of instances, if carried on beyond n certain amount it will inevitably disappoint the expectations of those that go out ?— I do not agree to the whole of this propoMtion, for I believe that for years, perhaps centuries to come, the number of emigrants sent out this year will rather increase the demand for them next year, and so on successively ; I particularly allude to the immense ex- tent of our Australian, North American and other colonies ; I also conceive that the great desideratum is, to establish a regular road for emigration at little expense, ^nd to protect the parishes from similar calls as much as you can. I 3895. If an Act of Parliament were passed containing the provisions to which you have adverted in your evidence, first, of the nonliability of the parish to any claim from the emigrating pauper for the future, secondly, a tax upon cottagea subsequently to be erected, such tax to be levied by the parish itself, ^e you of opinion that the parishes would be more disposed than the^ now would be to d^trgc their rates for the purpose of rendering the pauper that assutaoce which would locate him upon the terms detailed in the evidence before the Committee, in the British hysician, residing at Cork r — I am. 3897. Are ^ou acquainted vith the general state of the poor in Cork and its immediate vicmity ?— I am. . 38^8. And generally throughout the South of Ireland ? — More particularly with the city of Cork. . 3899. Have you bad an opportunity of reading the Evidence that has been given before this Committee by several of the witnesses who have been e)iaa>ined re> specting the. state of Ireland? — I read some, but very little of it. 3900. Do you consider that with reference to the supply of labour as compared witii the demand, that the Population is extremely redundant in . that part of Irc< ^and?-7-yecy redundant. 3901. Do you think that the evil is increasing rather than diminishing?-^ It,, i« increasing.' : 3903. You do. not think tliat any result of a crowded population is uperfitipg to check it, so as to retain it »t parr-^There is no appearance of a chfck. fivtiQ diseaife. . i 5L0- B b b 4 3903. Art w.n. ■ 9 May. il«7. ^1 ii m H Dr. WiUiam Mwrpkf. a'\ # Of. Wtllum Murfhi,. (3 Mty, III?. ¥ 384 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 3903. Are you of opinion Ihnt the population which ii 10 exiremely on the in« crraie, Itcing a rural populalion, the comparative tlciliiution of them doea not operate a* it would do in re>|)«ct of a populalion crowded in townt?— Certainly not. 3904. Can you iprak at to the wagei of labour in the neighbourhood of Cork ?— I can; the labourers generally, in the city, have from 6«. to 8«. a week. 3905. What it the price of labour in the country diatrictt ? — In the immediate neighbourhood they ran get labourer* from 6 establish a minimum of wages for labour ? — There is an attempt that in now in operation in tho city ; in fact the labourers aiKl operatives in the cit^ regulate their own wages, their employers appear to have no power in regulating it. 3910. How is that etfectedr — By their union of Jradesthey regulate the pricea of labour and wages. 391 1. Are you not aware that the natural check to such combination is, that if they demand more than the average price of labour in that city, other persons will be applied to execute that labour r — They are not allowed to come in ; they have the law in their own hands ; they will not allow a single tradesman to come into the city who is not a member of the Union. 3013. How do they prevent them from coming in? — By persecuting and attack- ing him ; a party is sent to attack his house ; and if they can find him, they will probably beat him severely ( and in some instances tliey have put individuals to death, I have heard that more than twenty have been killed m this manner in the city. 3913. Do you consider that that arises from the natural depression of waged arising from a superabundant population?— It appears to me to arise chiefly from that cause, but unfortunately they do not comprehend how their combination affecta themselves. With respect to the wages, at this time, when there is so much de- pression as there is in the city, a carpenter or a mason cannot bo had to work under 4«. !(/. a day ; when there was more capital and more business stirring, you might have had those men for 3 1. 3914. Has this union of trades been confined to artisans, or has it extended to labourers ? — It has extended to labourers ; we had an instance of it in the case of the new road from Cork to Dublin ; the engineer had got a number of labourers from the country at 64. a week, and the city labourers drove them from the work. 391 j. Are you of opinion that this union, which appears to be established for the purpose ot preventmg the wages of labour falling to that point of depression which would be the result of an equalization of labour, would continue to exist if A certain portion of the pauper labourers were to be removed by Emigration ? — I allude more particularly to operatives than to labourers ; it appears to me that the hihourers are less watchtol over their interests than the mechanics are ; labourers slip in quietly into the city by twos and threes ; if they come in a body, they are driven out at once by the resident labourers, but there is no regulation among the labourers to prevent their coming in quietly ; now there is among the tradesmen, ho tradesman can come into the city without danger of his life, after getting notice to quit from the committee of the trade that he belongs to. 3916. Are the Committee to understand that the object of this union is effected rather by obstructing the entrance of fresh artisans or labourer.*), than by prescribing any regulated rate of wages, and demanding that rate from their employers?—' They do both; they regulate the prices of wages, and they obstruct others coming in. 3917. Is the rate of wages which those persons receive, who thus obstruct the entrance of fre»h labourers, beyond that which is necessary to maintain thein in a certkin degree of independence ? — Yes, if they had fuH employment, but they have not ; those men who are carpenters and niajons, and who will not work foi* - les^ ■ V 1 J ■ * — Ifcifcll rEE the III- Qci not ertainly 3ork ?— mcditln ■I to tho ality f— K mor- lut fever, ichu in Corktn m now in ate their he prices 8, that if rsons will Lhey have e into the id attack- they will riduals to nanncr in of wageH iefly from ion affects much de- ork under you might tended to ie case of labourers from the )lished for depression to exist if ^ration ? — ne that the labourers they arc mong the tradesmen, ting notice is effected prescribing ployers?— ' ■uct others ibstruct the in thetn in t, but they It work foi* l(s< ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINOOOM: iSa? 385 Um than four sbUUnfi uid • penoy • dajr, mmm of tbtm do not get a day's work la a fortnijhti 39 1 1. Do you conceive that this union of trades hu diminished the real demand for labour of artisans ? — It appears to me to have done so ; a number of architects and persons engaged in works, have given them up. 3919. Have vou any doubt tltat u the labour of artisans were free in Ireland, that considerably more of the work of artisans would be done?— I think much nore ; in the city of Cork there is a demand for what is called the middling class of houses, from 30/. to 40/. a year; there are a number of persons that would set about building bouses, but they cannot do it as long u that union of trades •xists. 3990. Is it not the fact that there are many public buildinn which have been retarded ver^ much by the turning out of the tradespeople employed ? — ^I'bere are several public buildings which have been retarded by that circumstance. 3931. Is not fhe eRect of this union of trades to create a considerable enhance- nent of expense where the work is necessary and unavoidable, and to diminish the demand for labour and the carrying on of works where there is a possibility of avoiding them ? — It appears to me so. There is no person whatever that will engage in any work requiring tradesmen in Cork, if he can avoid it. 30a a. Does not Uiis operate most matarially to prevent the improvement of tlio dwellings of the people ?— Very much ; it appears to me likewise to have had a ver^ bad moral effiect upon the poor. It is very injurious when men of that de- scnption are brought together in masses in public houiws ; when met there they are EneraUv influen' ud by any person who talks a great deal, such a man is likely to an idle fellow } and the tradespeople have actually suffered in their morals since the Union of Trades was established, for even within my recollection there u a considerable change in them for the worse. 3933. Do you know the rate of wages usually given to tradespeople, such u carpenters and plasterers r— It is 4«. i a. a day. 3934. Supposing the trade to be free, can you at all imagine what would be the rate of wagn which an urdinvy carpenter or mason would receive, by whom 4«. id. a day is now claimed? — It would be entirely influenced by the price of provi ions tod the demand ; I think there would be much more demand and much more Steady employment, I think they would have steady employment, at from a«. 64. to 3«. a day. 3935. Was not that the usual rate ^ven till lately? — It was. 3936. Are the leaders in tliose confederacies supported by the men?— They are ; they have what they call committees, who issue their mandates to the parti* cular trades ; and those men in general do little work, they are said to be supported out of the chest 3997. You are aware that Emigration has taken place from the neighbourhood of Cork ? — Yes ; and it is going on now very briskly. 3938. To what part is that emigration chiefly directed!— Chiefly to Canada, and to the States. 3939. Will you describe the circumstances under which that is taking place at this moment? — ^The description of persons that go there from the south of Ireland through Cork, are generally small farmers that have saved a little, and some rich ones ; but the great bulk are labourers. It is a very extraordinary circumstance that scarcely a tradesman in the city emigrates i I have had some correspondence with a person who is principally employed in forwarding the emigration there, a ship-broker, and he says, there is scarcely a tradesman even among those that are well employed, that can ever save as much as will take him over; now Uie labourers do save sometimes, for the Ubouren are much more comfortable than the trades- men are, although receiving much leas wages; they are more temperate and they are more managing than the tradesmen. The great bulk gping now are small farmers and labourers. 3030. What is the amount of money with which those small farmers emigrate? —The passage to Canada is about iL io«., and they sejdom charge them for ciiiU dren ; it costa them 4/. \o». to go to the States. 3931. What are their views when they get there ?-^They are better pleased to be empbyed by the farmers as labouren than to get ^und themselves, for tliey know that they will eventoally be able to become proprietors; and all the accounts from those who have gone out have been very favourable, they have generally written to thttrfinends to coine out to then; th^iraccouata are so good from Canada, - 550. 3 C that Dr. riMMNifw^. V .. ' It M»y, ll*7< A A I i: n , i 386 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOilE SELECT COMMITTEE ttat Emigmtion U likely to increaae ; one man told me that he had ro mai^ app)t» cations to him, that he thinks that he expects to ship about seven thousand peraoM in. this present apfing.. About two thousand have been sbippped already. 393a: Do they principally ^ to Canada i — ^To Canada and New York ; out of that number, there are about eight hundred to New York. 3933* WSat is ti» deaoription of those that went to New York ?— Fanners and labourers^ and a few weavers ; they have had oommunicatioBS with: the States^ and ibey say that weavers are wanted, at Philadelphia. 3934' I)o ^B i^cultural population appear much inclined to goito. New Yorki) •^Yee, they are nuire anxious to go to the States. 3935. If you state that they are more anxious to go to the United States than ta the Canadae, how do you account for so large a proportion as twelve hundred out of two thousand.ba'nng gone to die Canadas ? — ^Foccheapnesa; numberscometB Cork who have nothing but their uL io«. and & bag of potatoes to take with tbeoii, 3936. Then in- fact the better description of persons go ta New York?'— Yes, and some with a good- daaL of money have gone to Canada; there are. a.great many of the men that go from the county of Limerick very snug farmers ;. I had soma eonversation with several of them about, their views,, they' were anxioos, they/said, to get rid of rents and tithes, andi to become proprietor* themselva»^ and they were afraid there wonld be another disturbance in Ireland^, whieh they woidd never wish to witnesft again. 3937. Have they lately renewed those expressions of apprehenaioo ?— Yes, it was very lately before 1 came over that I had conversation to ** ' - effect. 3938. Are you awBse whether, in the management of Ifca^ .0 Ireland, these isa disposition now manifiestBd by the proprietors to consdidate fiurms, and to reduce die popidation think that thosb parties, provided seven years were allowed them to establish themselves, would be at all unwilling to pay interest for such money aa might be advanced to themrfor that purpose ?— ^ do not think that many of them would do so, for they are going over almost with the impression, that tliey will have nothing to pay for the lanid. 3944. You will distinctly understand that the question is not with respect to pay# ment for their land, but it is precisely the same as if moniw were advanced to them in their own counti^, which they were to have the use of for seven years without interest, and then to pay interest for it; do you think, upon a proper explanation being made to them, that men of that particular class would not be desirous of receiving assistance from the Government upon those terms ?• — I have not the Imst doubt, from conversations I have had with them upon the subject* that they would be willing to pay. 3945. And that they would be willing to give the security of their land for the payment ? — Yes, I have not the least doubt of it ^ 3946. When this was duly explained to them, do you not think they would, be more pleased to accept land upon such terms, than to be exposed to the uncer* tuuty of- success arising from their own unassisted exertions ?<— They would ; them '»4'- -■ ■ 'v -■ . i» -York J ON EMIGIIATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 18x7. 3l| if a grnt want of ooneot knowledge among theoi with raipeot to tke etate of America. 3947. Snppnring a considerable emigration to take place ffom Cork and its veighboarhood, do you conceive that any efiectual .meane could be dcviaed for preventing the vacuum being filled up? — I fear not; in fact there is no law by «*bich stmngen can be kept from conomg into the pariefa, as there i» in Enghuid ; 4n Ireland the poor laws do not exist 3948. In what classiaf the coBMumity do you conceive the increase of populatioa tagp on most rapidly in Ireland ? — In the lower classes. 394p. Do you conceive that it eoes on more rapidly when the state of the popu* lation is very low, or when it is amanced and improved ? — I think it goes on more rapidly when it is a point above the very lowest 3950. Taking two clashes in the community, the fiirmers and the cottagers, in which of those two classes do jaa conceive that the greatest number of impru- vident marriages take plaee? — 1 think in the 'Oottier«laae. 3951. Can a cottier obtain ipoasesaioa of land, Mid the poiMr of building a jBOttage, without the consent of the landkmi ? — Certaialy not; but according to the ■system that has been pursued in Ireknd, be need not have the landlord's consent. 3952. Are you aware that an alteration of the law has taken place, which enables the landlord to provide against the subdivision of his hind ?~~Yes. 8953- In case the landlord were to be called upon for a cootribution to assist ia ^emigration, do you not think that that would be given by him upon the principle that the increase of peculation was mischievous to his own intenest ? — I think he •ought to do so, bat whether he would do so, or not, I cannot say. 3954. In cases in wtuch he did so, do not you conceive that he would do so for ibe purpose of checking an evil which be felt to be prejudicial to iiis own interest ? — Certainly. .3955. Then, in the shape o: cnatribution, do you not think that a security would K obtained, that he would, as far as m bhnseU lay, prevent the recurrence of the ^ril ? — Undoubtedly, he pledges himself to it. 3956. Then under the existing state of the law, which enables him to enforce iiovenants in biases, do you not think that the landlord who had given such security would take due means to prevent the undue increase of a cottier population upon itbe land ? — I think he •would ifind it very difficult to do so .; it is very easy to make 'Acts of Parliament for Ireland, but it is very difficult to put them into operation. 3957. Do you not think that although that be true as a general principle, an ex- ception might be made with respect to those cases in which those who administered tthe law haw a motive, from a regard to iheir own interest, to carry that law into effect ? — ^Tbey hawe a very unmanageable population to administer mr. ° 3958. WioaldAbese be any personal danger to the proprietor in pulling down some of tbose bouaes, if the ipeople inhabiting them faad oangrated ?— If the people Aiat iahabititbem provide tor the population who may he dispossessed ? — Undoubtedly, I think it will be a mere dead 4etterwitbouta 'disposition generally on the part of the poor in the South lof Inland to consider ithat any facilities that are given by the Government to emi- gration are acts of grace and ijavour, and not acts in any degree bordering on op- 550. 3 C a pression It ;' I) !' II Dr. 15 Mty, 388 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE pression ?— They do not look upon them at all as oppressive acts, but the very contrary. 396.5. Is it the practice in the South of Ireland, in the larser class of farms, for the labourers to be resident and fed in the house? — Not much, except upon partio cular occasion*. 3966. Are you of opinion that if that habit was introduced, it would operate^ to check early marriage, from raising ideas of comfort in the minds of the labourers ?— • I think it would have that effect ; the Irish peasantry want ideas of comfort. v«. . Jom, 17* die ATait, 1827. B. J. WILMOT HORTON, ESQUIRE, IN THK CHAIR. Br. Jtikm Strachan. \ ^ * 17 May, ,A The Rev. John Strachan, D. D. again called in; and further Examined. 3967. HAVE you any details with which you can furnish the Committee, re> specting the average annual expense which is incurred by emigrants arriving in the Canadas without aijy capital or means of subsistence ? — The expense to which the inhabitants of York are put, consisting of a population of about 1,800, since 1818, has averaged upwards of two hundred pounds per annum for supporting destitute and sick emigrants, giving them provisions, and attending them during sickness ; besides, great difficulty frequently occurs when the parents die, in providing for the children, keeping tliem sometimes for a length of time, till places can be found for them ; a great number of such cases of distress happen every year. 3968. Supposing, except in the case of children, that the mdividuals who were in that state of distress, had had any small capital advanced to them, upon the condition of repayment, do you think there would have been any practicable means of effecting that repayment?— I allude chiefly to those persons who, from sickness, have been totally unable to work; those persons who are not sick, seldom require much assistance, probably provision for a week or two, till they get employment ; such, if they had had capital advanced, would have gone upon their farms imme- diately, like other settlers. 3909. What are the annual number of men capable of labouring at agricultural labour, which, upon an average, you consider have arrived in Canada since the year 1818, independently of women and children?— I am not sure that I could give a very accurate answer. 3970. Can you state within a hundred or five hundred? — I think upwards of aooo heads of families have come to the Canadas who were capable of labour. 3971. Could you in any degree inform the Committee what, upon the most general estimate, might be the amount of money which each of them possessed, one with the other? — Probably one with another they might have two or three pounds when they arrived in York, but a vast number arrived without any thing; many were sent on from Kingston by the steam-boat, who had their passage paid for them, not having the means of paying it themselves. 3972. The question had reference to the 2000 men who landed generally in the Canadas, and not to those who found their way to York ? — I can only speak cor^ rectly of those that arrived at York. 3973. Do you think that the demand for labour in the Upper Province is so great, that if means were provided, a considerable additional number of labourers would be absorbed by the wants of the population ? — Not a great number. 3974. Do you think if 5,000 labourers were to present themselves instead of 2,000, that in that case the demand for labour would be sufficient to absorb them? — Cer- tainly not 3975' What would be the consequence of such a supply of labour over the demand ? — They must either starve, or be a burthen on tlie inhabitants as the sick now are. 3976. Do you not think that a system might be devised, under which labour might spread itself more easily than it does now over the whole surface of the Canadas, where it is wanted ; for example, might not a settler in a distant part of the colony, to which it was not probable that any labourer would work his way, authorize an agent at any of the ports to make a selection of any person, and send him up, undertaking to pay the expense of his passage through the country; might not a system, more or less of this character, be devised?— I rather think not^ because the poorer settlers generally wish to do all the work within themselves; with ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 389 with regard to that class of settlers that are a little forward in the world, and that wish to cultivate farms largely, they might come into a system of that kind, but the majority of the people are too poor. 3977. ' Do you not conceive that single men that go out might almost uniformly provide for themselves' — I think they might; to the single men we never give any •asntaoce, except sometimes a few days provision. ■ * Pek . ■>bituon, Esq. again called in ; and further Examined. 3978. YOU are aware that all the calculations of expense that have been made by the Emigration Committee, have been made upon the principle of each family consisting of a man, a woman and three children? — It was upon that estimate the experiments of 1823 and 1825 were made. 3979. Might there not he variations in the number of emigrants going, without any variation in the amount of expense?— There might 3980. What is the proportion of children that you would estimate as making the same expense necessary as is incurred in the support of a man ? — Two children are generally estimated as equal to an adult in respect to the expenses. 398 1 . Do you consider that there would be any prejudice sustained in locating «migrant8, if a man and a woman should have six children, for example, instead of three ? — Not the least ; their success would be equally certain in the colony. 3982. Do you^hink there would be any prejudice if they had eight or even ten children, instead of three ? — None whatever. 3983. In point of fact, supposing that of 5,000 emigrants 300 out of the 1,000 men were single men, consequently, there would not be more than 700 women, the Emigrction would then stand thus, 1,000 men, 700 of whom would be married, and the other 300 single, 700 married women, and 3,600 children ; would not you estimate the expense of that Emigration as less rather than more than the expense of an Emigration in the other proportions, inasmuch as it is to be expected that 300 single men would find their way in the colony as labourers without the necessity of being located ? — As there would be no expense incurred in settling a single man or providing for his subsistence after his arrival in the colony, I consider the expense would not exceed the usual proportion of a man, his wife and three children. 3984. In point of fact therefore, notwithstanding the ratio which the Committee have taken for the sake of convenience, that ratio would not operate practically to prejudice any Emigration in which the numbers might be different, inasmuch as in case of tliere being fewer of one class there would be more of another ? — It would not, if the principle was adopted, that each single man should provide for himself upon his arrival in the colony. . 3985. If, instead of the supposition of the 300 single men providing for them- selves, 600 additional children were taken in their room, in that case the numbers would be 4,200 children, 700 men and 700 women ; in such a case are you not of opinion that the expense would not be exceeded ? — It would not, if the children were to provide for themselves after their arrival in the colony. 3986. Therefore there is no necessity to limit the Emigration to persons with three children ? — I have found by experience that the largest families generally were the soonest able to provide for themselves, and that families of eight and nine children have cleared more land and raised more produce, in proportion, than a healthy young man and his wife and two children ; besides, the loss of the head of the family, when such an affliction occurs, is in d?me degree supplied by the children. 3987. Therefore, in the selection of emigrants, provided the father and mother were within a certain age and perfectly healthy, you would rather be disposed to take them with large families than without ? — I would much rather. 3988. Supposing the* case of an Emigration of 1,000 men, of which 300 were single, do you think it would be dangerous to make the experiment of sending out 300 widows with three children each ? — The success of a widow with three or four children, the eldest not less than 16, would be equal to the other emigrants. In 1823, I took two or three such families, with boys from 18 to 20, and in 1825 I took two or three more, in order to make the experiment, and in both instances it succeeded remarkably well. 3989. In the case of widows with young children, you would decidedly object toit?^Decidedly. 550. 3 C 3 3990- In Dr. JctmStnthm. — — \> ■■■' 17 M«y, 1897. Ftttr JtotJMM^ Etq. 1 . "' >t<7. IBS asmuns OF EVlDBNCfi BSFORB fpgo. Inthe ciw tiie settleoient of anridowin'the Emigra* Son of -^833 amf /SaB?— In the EmigmtiuB of 1833, the widow Ifargaret'GMhaBA was taken from Churchtown, in the couittyof Coric, vwlth 2'boys'and 3 '|^'abovi6 1-4, and -one igM nnder 14-: they were 'loeated in Pakedham, in #ie Batfnrst district, in the autumn of \%vi ; And 'onlhe 14th Marbh '<826, they had deared rSi-Bcree'of land, raised '^'bashdtofgrain, aaobn^le-of potatoes, i5o*buihels of turnips, and had acquired by their Mbeur'fiheadof cattle. In the Emimtion tS. 1825, the widow Johannah Hickie was 'tslren froniihe eouittyof Cork, (MiUov^ with 6 tihikben, John i>8, James 16, 'Patrick 15, Klary 13, Thomas -11, and Michael 7: these were located in the township of 'Ennismore, in the district df Newcastle, in >the autumn of 1^35 ; and on the 34th l^ovemb^r 16^6, they hoA 4«cre8 of land cleared, and had raised 300 burihds Of potatoes, loo'busmds of turnips, and 60 bushels of Indian com. 3993. 'Haveyou Icnown any instance of money or produce being'Ientto au'smi- ^nt settler upon a principle of repayment, and which repayment has been canieA mtoexecution?— -It isa very common practice among 'the newsettters to'boirow, during the lint season, 'flour and po^k 'from tiieir more wealtiiy neighbours, which they repay afterwards from the produce Of 'their *liurm8 ; bat 'the |rovemment AOW oaany yeam banreToa been ' Chief Jusdoe ofithe^prariace of Lvwar ^' Canada?— l>Tineteen. 3998. Have you lesidcd there pretty 'continuously ommittee ^wiBh to rdbr you pntisularlytto tte cvidanee 'of -Ife. felton, 'whose evidence appUesimore patticulaiiy tottheiprovinee of LownrCanadsc; are you prepared to state that you generally concur with Mr. Felton in bis viem, lai to ithe (probable success of 'emigrants in tfaatsolony?— rl do. 4001. Have you examined the Evidence with : sufficient aBconBDy:and in anfficiont detail, to feel confident as tothe main identity of your opinion'on this^ubject wilfa tlie'opinion of that gentleman? — ^Perhapsif 1 weredis&as ewerypoiat, I should not agree with Mr. X'elton ; but. in the general result of his opinions I certainly do. 4002. Are you of opinion that if the^snm of 60/. be applied in giving assiataace to aoiemigrant head of a family iocated Temiiiei:i ,•■'5* Mr. Thomai Tredgold, called in; and Examined. 4013. YOU are a civil engineer? — I am. 4014. What is the extent and acreage of Dartmoor? — Above 120,000 acres. ^ 4015. What is the quality of the soil, does it vary? — Decomposed granite, with a surface stratum of moras*, which varies in depth. from two to ten feet. 401.6. In whom does the property of it vest ? — It is parcel of the duchy of Corn- wall, now vested in the Crown, and is not alienable. a* 1&89. .13) i i Ml Afr. Tkmat TredgoU, -» 33 May, l8'i7. 550. 3C4 4017. Are rvl 393 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMriTEB !ii Mr. TkomM TredguU. 93 M«y 1817. 4017. Are there any rights of tithe, or manorial rights ;ir common rights, on the land ? — ^Tbere is a modus for agistment, which appbes to the whole of the moor ; unless specially provided for by the bill, any improvements would be liable to tithe. 4018. Supposing agricultural labourers to be located there, what quantity of acres per family of five persons, consisting of a man, woman and three children, is it proposed to allot? — It is suggested that no allotments should in that case exceed thirty acres. 4019. As the land is stated.to be inalienable, what is the period of the lease that u proposed to be granted ? — Ninety-nine years certain. 4020. What is the estimated expense of a dwelling necessary for each family of settlers? — About 830/. including fences for the garden and what it would be neces- sary to expend in the first instance. 4021. Does that include the fencing of the thirty acres ? — ^Tbat includes fencing a portion of the land for a garden*and the house, the house to consist of a living room, two bed-rooms, a wash-house, cow-shed, piggery, and the necessary con* veniences. 4023. Does that include the proportionate expense of the general roads that are to connect these districts together? — A proportion of the first expense, what I would recommend to be done at first ; I would not form regular roads in the first instance, but let that be done as it became necessary from the settlers having cultivated the ground. . 4023. Does that include furniture? — ^No. . 4024. What is the estimated expense of furniture which is necessary to be placed in the houses of those settlers ? — About 12/. 4025. What is the proportion of the expense of the actual dwelling, in the esti- mate of 230/. ? — It would be about 180/. 4026. W|iat is the estimated value of the food which it would be necessary for the family to subsist on before they could have any return from the cultivation of the land r — I estimate that they would want partial support for four years, and that the whole expense for the family would be about 105/. for that time; they would want to be wholly supported the first year, three-quarters the second, half the third, and a fourth the fourth year ; after that, I think they would be fiolly capable of supporting themselves. 4027. What is the nature of the cultivation which it is proposed that the settlers should carry on ? — Potatoes, hemp, flax, and perhaps oats or bigg, I think, would answer. 4028. Are the agricultural implements necessary for cultivatioa included in the estimate you have given? — No ; they will amount to about 5/. or 6/. 4029. Is it necessary tliat horses should be employed in this cultivation ? — Not till after the setders themselves can afibrd to have them. 4030. Have you any calculations as to the estimated amount of produce which you expect to be the result per family of this cultivation ? — Assigning the time at which they would be able to subsist themselves, I have estimated that the produce for potatoes would be a return of 1 2 to i , of corn at least 5 to 1 ; and I think those are the very lowest that possibly could be in that situation. 4031 . Having alluded to difrerent items in detail, will you furnish the Committee with a general estimate, per family, of every single item of expense which can be made matter of calculation and estimate prior to the period when the parties may be expected to be enabled to subsist themselves from the produce of the soil ? — ' 11 4033. You have stated that each settier is to have 30 acres?— The utmost should be 30 acres, but 25 is what I have estimated upon'. 4033. — Will you detail to the Committee the different quantities of land in whicb you propose, upon an average, to dispose of those 30 acres, distinguishing it into pasture, hay, oats, and the general process of cultivation? — . :i i 4034. Is there good pasture on parts of Dartmoor ? — ^Yes. 4035. Have you seen good crops of hay there? — I have not had an opportunity of seeing the crops of hay. 4036. Or * TTEB ^hts, oa ths ' the moor; le liable to quantity of children, is case exceed 16 lease that eh family of Id be neces- udes fencing t of a living :es8ary con« tads that are pense ,what is in the first tiers having to be placed ;, in the esti- necessary for iultivation of lars, and that ; they would talf the third, iy capable of It the setders think, would eluded in the ration ?— Not roduce which ig the time at : the produce I think those >e Committee which can be e parties may be soil t— —The utmost f land in whicti juishing it into m opportunity 403G. Or Mr. Tkomas TrtdgoU. 91 Ma/, .ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINQDOM. 1837. 393 4036. Or of oats? — Nor of oats. I have seen the quality that is grown there, but not the amount of crop. 4037. Are the oats of superior quality? — Very good. 40}8. You have stated, that for each family the sum of is to be incurred prior to the payment of any rent ; at what period do you expect that the settler will be enabled to pay a rent which shall be an equivalent for the capital advanced in his location, calculating the compound interest accruing to that capital from the time of its being lent to him, to the time of the commencement of such rent, as well as of such payment of interest ? — I eitimate that in ten years it would be best to begin to take rent, and then to take for a certain number of years, which depends upon the amount, such a rent as would be equivalent to the compound interest of half the capital \ then for the next ten years to begin another advanced rent, which should in that ten years pay olf the whole; therefore it would be thirty years, from the period of the settlement before the whole capital was returned. 4039. Have you included in this expense* per family, such general expense of roads, &c. as it would be necessary to incur with reference to the settlement ? — I have included all the expense, except that which would be incurred in laying out the roads for the settlers, but that I considered would be a thing which would take place gradually, and should be done something in the manner of parish roads in other places, not to be a formal expense at the first, because if there is too heavy a rent upon them to return the capital, it would cramp their exertions very much ; I think the settlers ought to do that gradually. 4040. Then you would impose upon the settlers the legal necessity of making such roads, and general communications and drains, as might be necessary for the general interest of the district ? — Yes, the very object is to give them employment. 4041. The Committee are to understand, that the principle upon which this cal- culation is made, is that of deferred interest for a given number of years till the im- pfoved value of the land will furnish the means of paying, not only that deferred interest, but the principal ? — Yes. 1-7 ■ .<.'.,. .■ ' Simon M'GiUivray, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 404a. YOU are Chairman of the Committee of Management of the Canada Smm APGilKvraj/, Company ?— I am. v ^*ecific prospectus before the public. 4049. The Committee are I* understand, that under tbeae circanistances tlM Company would be responsible in every sense of the word for the accompiislimeiit of tliose terms which they might hold out in such prospectus to the emigrants f— I'bey would be responsible for any contract into which they may citter, and they would only enter into such a contract as they would b*abl* to perfona. ^ Jamti Inglil, Eiq. JafMt IngUs, Esq. called in ; and £:(anined. 4050. YOU are a Director of the Van Diemen% Land Company } — I am. J 4051. The Committee understand that the Van Diemen's Land Company con* template the introduction of labourers into Van Diemen's Land for the purpose of cultivating the ground they have lately purchased from the Crown ? — They do. 4053. Have they reason to believe that the supply of convict labour to which they have looked as the means of cultivating that ground will not be of that extent to enable them to avail themselves of it to any considerable degree r — We under- stand that ttie demand for convict labour has risen so much that we are not likely to obtain much of it. 4053> Yon are therefore considering the mode of obtaining a supply of European free labour ? — Yes. 4054. Has the Van Diemen's Land Company ever considered the Subject upon the principle of calling upon the labourer to pay back a certain proportion of the expense of the passage i — We have never made any offer yet to any emigrant to go out in that way. 4055. Would the Company, in case of parishes furnishing a certain sum of money, which might be applied for the removal of a party, and the individual settler bind*- ing himself to pay back by labour a certain proportion of the expense incurred in his removal, undertake to receive a certain numb«r of emigrant settlers ? — I think we should be very glad to do that, provided we had a voice in the selection of the parties. 4056. It being supposed that an agent of yours in this country should approve the parties selected ? — Certainly, on those terms we should be glad to do it. 4057. Do not you think that that would be the most simple mode of effecting the purpose of the Company P—I think it would be a very simple mode, and I should think it wonld be a very practicable mode. 4058. You have stated that you have sent settlers out?— We have sent a feUi out. 4059. What are the terms upon which those settlers have been sent out? — The terms are, to give them their subsistence by rations, according to a certain scale for agricultural labourers, and we give them 30/. a-year wages. 4060. Is there any agreement made that they are to refund any portion of that 30/. ? — There is no agreement made with them ; we consider them to be a superior class of persons, and, generally speaking, to be a description of persons that at the end of that period of three years would be likely to take lands of us. 4061. You would equally propose to ration the labourers who went out? — We should ration the labourers. 4062. And agree with them upon a certain rate of money wages, part of which you would withhold for the purpose of repaying the expense of their passage out ? — Yes. Lieut. fi. Clement, R. M. Lieutenant Hanhury Cknunt, R.N. called in; and Examined. 4063. WHAT is your connexion with the colony of New South Wales?— 1 have no particular connexion with it beyond holding a erant of land in it, and having been in the trade between Ireland and New South Wales, in taking out free settlers from Ireland ; and commanding a vessel of my own in the trade betweea New South Wales and Van Diemen's uuid for three years. $ 4064. Do ON EMIOBATION FBOM THE UNITED lUNODOU: iSa;. 'S95 4064. Do you belong to • niercantil* firm ? — ^Thera ia no partncnbip existing betweon ua further than this, that I, aa a nautical man, and other persona aa tlie WMltby partiea» art willing to engage together in the undertaking which I ant prc- tpared to subnit to the Connittee. 4065. What ia the connexion of the other gentleman to whom ^ou refer with the «olonv of New South Walca?— He ia • resident merchant at Siduey, and a land pnprittor also. 40G6. What is the extent of the capital of the parties whom you represent ?— From eighty to one hundred and twenty thousand puunds ; the partiea have a pro- perty in the colony of New South Wales to that amount 4067. The individuals 3roa represent are anxious to obtain a large grant of land iottM ioiitbcm extremity of New South Wales? — Ycj. 4068. What is the extent of the ground they are anxious to obtain i — aoo>oo« •ties. 4069. For what object do they wish to obtain this land ? — For the purpose of cultivation, and other general purposes that so large a portion of land would be devoted to. 4070. Will you describe the purpoees to which you allude ? — One of the pur- poses would be the growth of flax ; another is for the purpose of manufacturing the extract of bark, which will ultimately come into considerable consumption here in consequence of oak bark becoming scarce ; the bark of that country I believe has every property which is wanted in tanning, the only defect is I believe with respect to the colour. 407), Is there a great deal of timber in that part of New South Wales? — It b very heavily timbered. 407a. What is the quality of the soil ? — ^The soil about Western Port is very good, but more to the westward it is swampy, more particularly about Port Philip. 4073. Has that particular district been surveyed by the local government? — It has not to my knowledge been surve3red for the purpose of location yet ; but it has been settled hy an oratr, and I have no doubt n now undergoing the process of surveying. 4074. What is the extent of land in the district in which you apply for 200,000 acres, of equal quality to that for which you are making application ; you are re- ferred to a line on the map crossing the country at ri|;ht angles north and south, east and west to the vicinity of Western Port ? — I should suppose it would be about 450,000 acres. 407.<;. At present there is no sort of settling upon it? — Not that I am aware of; if there is, it has occurred since I left the colony, which was in July last, 4076. In consideration of your receiving this grant, what is the equivalent that you ofler? — I offer to take out 500 fiimilies free of all expense to His Majesty's Government, finding them in provisions during the passage, and securing them there in employment for a certain time. 4077. Do you propose that those ftHSiilies should be poor labouring families, or artisans ?-tI propose them, in the first instance, to be artisans, because tlie colony at this moment suffers severely from the want of them. 4078. Then you do not contemplate the actual employment of those parties upon the grant of land, but to diverse them over the Coiony, as demand may exist for their particular labour ? — Yes ; the object is to introduce a better mode of vorking, and better habits among the rising g^eneration there, who of course are <>bliged to learn the various trades firom the prisoners, those prisoners probably being of the very worst description. 4079. Could not your object be equally accomplished if you had a lien upon those parties so introduced, to repay you for any expense that may be 'ncurred in their removal there? — I am not aware whether an engfigement of that nature, entered into here, would be binding upoa them there. 4080. Supposing a law to be passed which would make it binding ?-^It would take some considerable time, it. would take three years, before, I expect, they would be in a situation to pay any thing, consequently we should have to give them at least four or five years credit, to repay which would occupy a space of eight years, which would be much too long a period to lay out of a cfmital such as the undertaking would require, unless some luterior advantage were to be derived. 4081. When you ask for aoo,ooo acres, it must be firom attaching a value to these 300,000 acres; and the proposition, when analyzed, appears to be this, that 550* 3 D 2 ia, LUut. Ji. CltMtwif ». a. M May, il«7. U! m- Liiui. U. ClimtHi, M. W. l« May, 1897, Si 396 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTSI in consideration of receiving aoo,ouo acrei you are prepared to incur the espense of taiting ttiose parties out r— Yet. 4o8i. Will you explain in what manner you expect to be repaid by tlie partiea themselves in any part of the transaction ?— being artisans, we cannot ex|)ect that they would be able to pay one half of the expense that we should be at ; but our desire is for the saitce of improving the colony generally, and at the same time of assisting many families, who, though they may have honesty, and good intentions to And employment at home, cannot do so. 40H3. Your proposition supposes a great number of families who have no employment here ; what objection can there bo, in case of their being assisted to remove to New South Wales, that they should contribute to repay part if not the whole of the expense incurred in their removal ; would not they be extremely bene- fited by that transaction ? — I should conceive so. 4084. Is it to be expected U)at they should be removed free of all expense, and obtain the high wages which will await them in that colony from the want of labour, and yet that tiiey should do nothing themselves for all this advantage ? — I should think (lis Majesty's Government would have a lien upon them through the Colonial Government there, to be repaid, to the amount of the value of the land, but the Government would have a better means of recovering it from the individuals than we would. 4085. What would you estimate the amount of the expense to be incurred in removing those 500 families ? — The lowest calculation we have been able to come to is about 75/. or 76/. for each fnmily. 4086. Five hundred families at 76/. each would be 38,000/.; then in point of fact, you consider 200,000 acres in that southern district of New South Wales to be of the value of 38,000/. ? — It would not be worth so much, if it were all taken together. 4087. Would you not be precisely in the same condition if you were to pay the Government 38.000/. for this tract of land, and there the transaction were to cease, as you would be in taking out 500 families which are to cost you 38,000/., voir not having any particular advantage from those families after they arrived there? — It is only natural to suppose that we would have a proportion of advantage from the parties themselves, and, independently of those families, we would have our cabin passengers, by which part of the expense would be covered. 4088. If you paid the Government 38,000/. for your land, and if the Govern- ment introduced into the colony upon any system 500 families of the same descrip> tion that you contemplate to introduce, you would be precisely in the same situation as if your proposition were carried into effect ? — Yes, in point of fact we would ; but in having such a quantity of land, we contemplate that we should be able to dispose of part of it to those families, besides having a facility of carrying on Various works which at present cannot be done, from the want of artisans. 4089. Yon have stated to the Committee that the expense of carrying out those 500 families will amount to 38,000/. ;' what proportion of that expense do you intend to be paid by the parties themselves? — We have* not made a positive calculation on that head yet; we should contemplate a half here, though it is probable that we may not receive so much. 4090. Then io point of fact you expect that 38/. per family is all the expense that you would incur? — Yes. 4091. The whole of the expense, therefore, in this transaction that you apd your friends expect to incur in removing those families amounts to 19,000/.? — Yes, and we look to the land to cover that expense. 4092. Do you contemplate that those parties will be enabled in the first instance to advance half their passage money, or do you expect to have that repaid to you by some arrangement that is to take place in the colony between you and them ? — If they could not pay it here, we would take a lien on them there, their note, or something of that sort, or probably take it from them in produce when they got their farms. 4093. The class of persons that you are disposed to introduce are not labourers in the strict sense of the term, but artisans ?— Yes. 4094. If those artisans are able to advance in the first instance 19,000/. for the purposes of their transport, why should they not engage themselves upon some given terms to repay progressively the remainder of the expense which is incurred in such transport? — I believe there is no law that would make it compulsory upon tbemt'>' ~ - 50. ■ ■ ■'■■■ ^^' 500 None of tliese men's wages would bo less than 54. a day at the lowest; and if on a settler's farm, would get from I 40/. to 50/. per annum, and be found in every thinp cepr clothes. His wife would also tCtLiv. iibciol wages, for superintending 'Wv ■ ■ Tiiii. ON EMIGRATION FWH TUI UNITED KINGDOII: ila;. jg^ #Ky . Mr. John fUmt, ealM In ; and Examined. I1S> YOU an Dvputy Pualnutcr General for Uia provinca of Nova Scotia? 41 14. You ar« alao llu Majtsty't Agont for PackaU at th« port of lUlifai ?—■ 4ltS< I am. 4I15. Have you road tlie cvidenca given before this Commiltee by Captain Scott?— I have. 4116. Will you alate to ihc voa diflfer from Captaiti Scoii ocott'a ilatement appear* tu me the settlers who wcru iucnicij tnifpinU i I wish to state that ll pruvuions by Govemnivnt, ~ department at Annapolis. •Hniniltce whether there are any points upon which 1)1(14 arc several |>oints u|ion which Captain iioi (|tireiM:c-urate; in the first place, he says that ipon ilie DilhKwgic settlement, ware voluntary ere discharie^ij sukliers, supplied fur a time witli an<) tsiidea w«r'- miide to titent from tlic C'Otniiii'Muriut ( )tain Scull .lU > *ny*, thiat the c»Mf(nirH^ who jgu to that province generally land at llalilnx ; but 1 <^ h»uid say that a tar greater |K>rtior; of them have landed in the eastern iMtrtinn uf the province, at Pxtun, AntigonisP', Manchester, and along the Ci ut of Canso. Captain Scott also says, tJiHl arty number •f persons could be located on the land on |iayment of tli (ve*; with reteieiicc to that I wish to make this observation, that it any body of settlers went out there they rould all b« emimdicd in one grant, and the cxpenfte (if the gi-unt Mowld be Very trifling to each individual ; supposing fifty fatnilius wmit out togetin r, th«e one gftfnt from the Government would embrace tiicm all. With referuni'i tu qucsiiuns 'J4 ' i, 3493, 3434, and 343 j, I beg to say that I quite agree with Ca^^itiMi Scott in th' answers he has given, and I sliould say, in answer to them ull, most miqucs- tionably. Captain Scott was also asked, " How much land could a good settler, with a family, clear in a year ?'* his reply is, " The Euro|)ean settler couUl Mcarccly clear his land at all ; the quantity of land they could clear would grt-atly de|)end upon their funds. An English labourer going out to America is as helpless as a child in the woods, in comparison with the old settler ; he is obli^er' to employ the labourers of the country to clear it for him ; his ability therefore wouUl dc|)ei>Kl upon his capability to hire the people of the country to do it." Upon that ' '>l)!icrv«, that the best body of settlers we have ever had in Nova Scotia were the uu who formed the 84th regiment, and were disbanded in the district of Picton ; the> have cleared immense tracts of land, they have raised large families, they have : cuied great comforts, and the settlement of those people in that part of Nova Scui t has been attended with very great benefit. I differ entirely from Captain Scotl m thinking that an English labourer going out to America is helpless. 4117. Are you of opinion that if an English labourer going there is properly instructed, and has all the average assistance which is contemplated upon the prin> ciple laid down by the Committee for Emigration, he would not be found practi- cally helpless? — Certainly not ; I have about eighty acres of land about a mile from my office, and I hire labourers from this country whenever I can meet witl<. them, and so difficult is it to ^et labour, that often I am indebted to some of m v army friends to some little assistance of soldiers. There is one observation that think it my duty to make, and that is, that I do not consider that it would be at all ne- cessary for Government to do any thing more than assist carpenters, blacksmiths and masons with the passage out to the colonies, because the trades of those [)'>ople are so very good in the North American colonies generally, that they would not be inclined to go into the forest to cultivate the soil there, for they could get upon the average from five to seven shillings a day there. 411 8. Do you conceive that it would be advisable for Government to take upon itself any expense with regard to that class of persons, or do not you think that the inducements to such persons to go out are sufficiently great without any assistance being given, and also that they have in general the means of transporting them- aelves when they choose? — It such was the state of this country that there w;i8 a number of artisans out of employ, and Government considered that it would be beneficial to send them to the colonies, and those persons did not possess the mearu of transporting themselves thither, I should say that all that Government need do for such |)eo|iSe would be merely to land them. 41 1 9. You are, then, assuming the fact, that there are a number of those persona out of employ wno have not the means of transporting themselves ?— I judge from what I read in the papeia. 550 3 1) 4 _ 4130. You I 'II » f ( llM 400 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. Mn Uime. aa May, 1837. f> ft J. T. Dtecher. 41 20. You are aware that it is not proposed to locate upon land any emigrants for whose labour there is a demand in the colony ; supposing, for example, that 1000 labourers and artisans were to land in Nova Scotia, if there was any demand for their labour, so that they could be supported by the wages of labour, there could be no possible reason for any advancement in the way of loan to them for the purpose of locating them upon the land, but whenever the supply of labour was such as to lower the wages of labour below the proper standard, then might be the time for locating those who were in excess r — An individual going out as a carpenter witb a family might perhaps, as he found his family increasing, be anxious to provide a settlement in the country for that family, and I do think he should have some claim upon Government, to asisst him with a tract of land, but not with provisions, certainly. 4121. Supposing that persons went out there whose passages were paid for, do you think there would be any practical difficulty in having a lien upon those persons for the repayment of the expense of their passage from their wages? — There would be difficulty perhaps in havm^ security for the recovery of the money. 4122. Do you think practically that a great part of that money would not be recovered ? — I think it would not on their arrival at Halifax ; the artisan might hear that at Boston his trade was better than it was at Halifax, and he might embark inr a vessel to Boston, and there he is in a foreign country. 4123. In that case he could never appear again either at Halifax or in England? — I should suppose not. 41 24. How is he to find the money to remove from Halifax to Boston ? — I suppose a fortnight's labour would ^ve him the means of moving from Halifax to Boston. - . The Rev. John Thomas Beecher, called in ; and Examined. ,-sii :*;«?.,' 4125. YOU are the Chairman of the Quarter Sessions for the Newark Division of the county of Nottingham ' — I am ; I have so officiated for eighteen years , and as a magistrate of the county of Nottingham for twenty-five years. 4126. You are acquainted with the circumstances which preceded an Emigratioa from the county of Nottingham to the colony of the Cape of Good Hope, in the year 1818? —Perfectly, as well as with the details relating to this Emigration, since the whole of the arrangements were confided to myself, in conjunction with Edward Smith Godfrey, esq., the Clerk of the Peace for Nottinghamshire. 41 27. Will you detail shortly to the Committee, the circumstances which induced a disposition at that period in parties to emigrate ? — The fluctuations of trade in th» county of Nottingham having frequently created a pressure of intense distress among the working classes, arising from the want of employment, subscriptions have from time to time been liberally raised in order to mitigate the sufiierings of the working classes, by providing employment of a nature diflerent from their ordinary occupa- tions. In the year 1819, the manufacturers experienced a recurrence of those cir- cumstances, in consequence of which tlie operatives requested the Duke of New- castle, as the Lord Lieufenant of the county, td receive a deputation from them, to bring under his consideration the oppression which, as they supposed, they endured from their masters, and to regulate the price of wages. In consequence the Duke •of Newcastle condescended to hear their representations, for which purpose he visited Nottingham, accompanied by myself. After a full conference with the dele- gates, His Grace decidedly declined any interference between the masters and the workmen, but tendered the means of emigration to such distressed workmen as might be disposed to colonize at the Cape of Gope. The delegates returned for answer, that they dare not make such a communication to the workmen, who were then assembled to the number of some thousands ; however, tlie Lord Lieutenant declined any other proposal. A subscription was accordingly entered into by him- self and by other persons in the county, to a very considerable amount. The first proposal was, that as Government then offered a certain sum, as well as an allot- ment of land, to every person who should emigrate to the Cape of Good Hop^ all distressed individuals should be invited to colonize there, and that to extend the benefits contemplated by this measure, a small sum shoiild be contributed in behalf, of each colonist by his or her parish, in addition to the allowance granted by Government, but that the reuiainder should be provided by the voluntary sub- scribers ; that the people should colonize as free settlers, and be supplied with/ every ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 401 cvei7 article conducive to their accommodation during their voyage and to their welfare after their location ; tiiat they should be conveyed to the port in the most comfortable manner, and that a superintendent should be selected by the voluntary •obscribers, to report from time to time their situation, and to insure tlieir confi- dence. The result was, that not a parist\would subscribe, that very few individuals pro* portionately consented to colonize, that of those who did at first express an inclination, several subsequently withdrew ; in a word, the project became so unpopular, that it was found advisable to originate another subscription to be applied towards pro- viding employment. We appointed a superintendent, who combined, with other qualifications, that of being a surgeon. However, we found our list reduced to be- tween two and three hundred persons. We purchased, at the sole expense of the voluntary subscribers, every implement that we conceived to be desirable, and fur- nished the colonists with all manner of seeds, cuttings of vines, and other vege- table productions. Having done tliis, we conveyed the whole party in coaches to Liverpool. Yet under all these favourable circumstances, although the Lord Lieu- tenant took an active part in the business, together with the Duke of Portland, Earl Manvers, Admiral Sotheron, and others who possessed the full confidence uf the county as well as of the poor, and though many of us felt a conviction, and none more strongly than myself, that when the supply of labour exceeded the pre- sent and prospective demand, no alternative equally expedient with colonization could be devised, still, although we distinctly explained this to the lower orders, and pointed out the advantages of it to them, the measure was then and continues to this day unpopular. After embarking the party at Liverpool in two vessels bound for Algoa fiay, a meeting of the subscribers was convened, at which the before-mentioned peers and persons attended. About one half of the subscription was returned, because we could not prevail upon the working classes to allow that it should be rendered available towards their " colonization," which word we were always obliged to adopt as the mildest modification of what the operatives deno- minated " transportation," and the measure terminated as I have stated. The subsequent history of this colony is well known at the office of the Secretary of State for the Colonial department. Unfortunately, the settlers were subjected to one severe privation by the death of Mr. Calton, the surgeon and superintendent sent out with those persons, which happened immediately upon his landing at Algoa Bay ; besides which, their crops of wheat were injured by the rust. 4128. You have stated that the same prejudices against colonization exist at this day in Nottinghamshire? — Against that colonization to which I have adverted. 412^. Are the Committee to understand that at this moment in Nottingham- shire, m those parishes which are overloaded with what may be considered as superabundant population, there is a strong prejudice against any remedy being afforded by emigration in any shape?— I do not conceive the pressure of distress to be 80 intense upon the working classes now as it was in 1819; many artificers in those days, who had lived in absolute luxury and comparative affluence, were re- duced to such' an abject situation that they worked as commim labourers for iod. a day, and submitted to this drudgery sooner than accept colonization. I am also of opinion that the same feeling still exists, and will probably prevail in other places where the poor know as well as they do in Nottinghamshire, that they are, under the present laws, entitled to parochial support. I think that when a family becomes actually pauperized, both in the parents and in their progeny, which i^ constantly the case, that wo appear in our legislation to want some provision beyond a workhouse or a prison; and I leave it to the judgment of the Committee to con- sider whether there may not be a class of paupers to whom colonization might be proposed, accompanied with a condition, that, if rejected, these paupers should not become in future entitled to parochial relief. 4130. Have you had an opportunity of seeing the Evidence which has been taken before this Committee ? — I have not 4131. The Committee would be glad to know whether you do not consider that it would be necessary that it should be established as a matter of indisputable notoriety, that Emigration had been attended with uniform advantage to the emi- grants, before it would be expedient to make such a change in the Poor Laws as absolutely by law to discontinue the claim of paupers for assistance from the pa- rish ? — I conceive that the practical expediency of colonization, as a national mea- sure, should be^ well ascertained, but I do not conceive it indispensably necessary that the minds of the poor should be absolutely satisfied upon this subject. 550. 3 E 4133. Supposing ./. r. BtteUr. 1i May, 1847. ! * ■ ( M il 1 i\ I I i ■ » ?»« I < I f^ u t U: II tu*. Ji, T. Bteeier. ' M Majr, 1SS7. 40a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 4133. Supposing that repeated ex periiuents bad shown that Emigratioato tb« North American colonies was attended in all cases of industrious settlors with «■ extreme improvement of tbei: condition, and with the realization of tlieir indepeo< dence, are you not of opinion that the magistrates and parochial authorities would be disposed to grant less and less to parties for whom no employment could be fouad, and who refused to take advantage of the resource of colonization r — I am not aware that such circumstances would operate upon the parochial allowaocea, because I have been instrumental towards reducing the rates very considerably in the district wherein I reside. In the parish of Souuwell the annual expenditure oo account of the poor amounted in the year 1831 to a,oio/., but was reduced in 1834 to 517/. by a judicious administration of the Poor Laws ; the rents paid in 1821 amounted to 1 84/., but in 1 833 no rents were allowed. As the parochial allowaoe* made in our district and in everjr well-regulated district to poor persons is the minimum that appears necessary for human subsistence, I cannot discern how anj reduction can be effected in such allowances. 4133. Are you not of opinion that although that practice may liave been intro* duced ia that particular district, that is not the genecal custom throughout the country ^ — I •n> ^ opinion that the Poor Laws, if wdl administered, would produce very different effects from those which now result from their operation. My endea« Tour has been to enforce practically the principles developed in the Statute of Queen Elizabeth, and elaborately confirmed by the Report upon the Poor Laws promulgated in 1 &i 7 ; in one word, we coustrain the poor to depend upon their own resources for subsistence ; we make up no wages out of the poors rates, we pay no rents, we carry the bastardy laws into strict execution, and we limit circiuii' spectly our allowances to non-resideut paupers. 4134. Supposing the fact to be, that an able-bodied man in a parish cannot find any employment in which there is a demand for his labour, would not, practically speaking, the allowance afforded by the magistrates in soin^ degree be governed by the reality of the effort which he had made to find employment, and supposing it to be demonstrable that by colonization he might better his condition, would not that be a practical reason for administering to him a less rate of parochial charity than in the opposite case of his making an ineffectual effort to improve his condition, and not having the power to accomplish it ? — Perhaps I view the question in rather a different li^ht ; I do not consider that the question of bettering his condition comes necessarily into issue between the pauper and the parish ; no man is, in my estimation, legally entitled to any parochial relief beyond that which will afford a bare sustenance ; in our district, we give a pauper under the present circumstances the lowest sum that seems sufficient to support life ; we avoid any intentional mal- administration of the Poor Laws ; we force the poor to seek for employment ; we urge them to migrate in the first instance from their respective parishes in search of occupation, and after such exertions, if no other employment is to be found, we supply them with the most servile kind of work ; this has chiefly been provided by the highways, such as breaking stpnes, riddling gravel, quarrying, t>r any similar employment. At Southwell, with a population 0(3,051, we have now in the work- house only one male, four females, and ten children ; and in forty-nine parishes, which, convinced of the utility of the system, incorporated on my recommendation, and of ^which I am now the visitor, with a population of 14,279, and a rental assessed at '106,410/. a year under the Property Tax Act in 1815, we have never exceeded 7t paupers in the incorporated house, and yesterday I received an account that they are now reduced to 54, consisting of 23 males, 17 females, and 14 children. 4135. Are you of opinion that it would be extremely convenient to pass a decla- ratory law, stating the payment of the rent of cottages out of the poors rates to be illegal ? — I conceive it to be illegal, and as such, I should not allow it in the accounts of the parishes under my control. In my opinion the expenses incurred under the Poor Laws have arisen principally from the non-administration rather than from the administration of the Poor Laws, from promiscuously relieving the poor without investigating their resources or compelling their personal exertions. 4136. Would you not admit that a case may arise in which it is in vain to force the poor upon their own resources, inasmuch as from the circumstances of the trade DO real demand for labour may exist? — Great and sudden revolutions in trader which are unforeseen and perhaps inevitable, will undoubtedly occur, on which occa- sions the supply of labour will enormously exceed the demand ; under these circuou 9 stances OK EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 403 » stanoefl you hove no alternative but providing tome subMitute, and the principle in Nottinghamahire has been to subscribe voluntarily and liberally, and to expend such contributions solely and exclushrely in employment, under tlic superintendeoce of a committee. 4137. Then, in fact, that sum of money was administered in the hope that an alteration would take place, bv which the parties woukl be restored to their average employment?-— It was, considering such occurrences always as atem)iorary suspen- sion, not as a permanent alienation of employment. ' 4138. Are you not aware that tliere are in different parts of England many agricultural districts where there are labourers permanently out of employ, without ■ny chance of being absorbed for agricultural purposes? — I am aware that case of this description exist in England, and still more did I witness them in Ireland during the last summer, wherei entered considerably into the management of their poor ; but I conceive that in many agricultural districts so circumstanced, the evil arises in a great measure either from a want of capital, or from the non-application of sufficient capital in the cultivation of the land, for I have seen estates which at this moment are tilled by horticulture rather than by agriculture, and much of the land in this country might be reduced, if not to tlie same fertili^, to a state of much higher improvement than prevails at present In the parish of Thurgerton, of which I am the Incumbent, by keeping up the rate of wages to twelve willing)) weekly for an able-bodied labourer, and by employing a sufficient capital in the cultivation of the ground, we have at this moment, in a population of 330 persons, but one Kfsident pauper, who is a widow, receiving sixpence weekly. 4139. You would admit that any improved principle of cultivation must arise from the impression that the capital employed in it is to produce a remunerating return? — Undoubtedly, no capitalist will employ his capital unless he supposes that it will become presently or prospectively productive. 4140. Are you not also prepared to admit that in many instances the introduc- i&on of agricultural capital is calculated, instead of increasing the demand for labour, very materially to diminish it, inasmuch as all economincal processes in husbandry are' effected by diminishing generally manual labour? — I think that observation applies less to agriculture than to manufi^ctures, because the plough is nearly the same that it was 4,000 years ago, and the spade as well as other rural implements have remained almost unaltered during the like period. Therefore, though I am well acqainted with the introduction of machinery for thrashing machines and for some other works of husbandry, yet the introduction of machinery is small in husbandry when compared with manufectures, and the steam engine, that grand moving power, is so little applicable to rural purposes, that I think the capital employed in agriculture would produce greater proportionate employment than in any other department. 4141. In point of fact, is not the drill plough, and is not draining, calculated to abridge human, labour? — I do not consider draining calculated to abridge human labour, on the contrary, it increases the quantity ; the drill plough approximates the cultivation more closely to horticulture. You will find that upon an acre of ground under drill cultivation many more people will be employed, ia weeding and in other processes, than upon an equal surface of land which is not so improved ; take, for instance, a garden in the neighbourhood of London, or any land in the country under* the drill system of husbandry, and it will be found that though this system increases the produce of the soil, it does not diminish the labour per acre. 4142. You have mentioned a parish where there is but one person who receives relief; what is the quality of the soil? — The higher part of it is a woodland clay soil, the lower part of it stretches towards the banks of the Trent, and is a loamy soil. 4143. Do you know the extent of acres in that parish ? — It contains 3,000 acres. 41 44. What is the number of labourers in that parish ? — The population in 1821, was 330. • 4145. In the case of a family, of a man a woman and three children, for wliose labour there is no demand, and to whom you would upon principle give the minimum of subsistence, what would yon estimate the support of that family throughout the year to cost, supposing thcrn to be entirely out of employ ? — Our present rate of allowance is from half a crown to two shillings weekly for each adult, and from one shilling and sixpence to one shilling for each child forming a part of the family. 55"- 3 E 2 4146. You B«v. J. T. Btitiir. «a Kf, lit?. m § i T. Ueechrr. 92 May, 1817. ■'■«) 404 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 4146. You are referring to families incapable of procuring other assistance?-- I am referring to families stating themselves to be incapable of procuring any em- ployment ; we suppose that the ordinary wages of a day labourer are in our district always sufficient to support himself, his wife, and four children under ten years of age. not occasionally but permanently, subject to all the fluctuations between summer and winter work. The average wages for a labourer in our district are 124. weekly, at all times, except harvest, when they average 154. The farmers know so well the superiority of a free labourer at 124. a week, even in winter, over a paupe- rized labourer at lower wages, that they cheerfully give the full hire, and conse- quently we have no instances of making up wages out of the poor-rates. 4147. Supposing a parish under these given circumstances, that there are fifty families of five persons each who may be employed occasionally in breaking- stones upon the roads, but for whose labour no real demand exists, would you not con- sider that such a parish would be justified, if the law permitted it, m mortgaging their poor-rates for such a sum as would repay in eight or ten years the expense of the Emigration of those families, in order to get rid of them ? — The mortgaging of the poor-rates raises a complicated question, because the rates are in the first instance an allowance made by the landlord out of his rent, and so granted to the farmer as deduction from the rent. Some difficulties, I concieve, would arise ia tempting the land occupiers to endure this burthen, unless it was divided into very minute portions. I speak practically upon this subject, because in erecting our incorporated workhouse, the sums required for the purchase of land and for the build- ings were raised by bonds under the 22d Geo. 3, for which the parish ratea were mortgaged, so that the loan should be repaid at the rate of one instalment in every year for twenty years ; but under those circumstances some of the landlords thought It advisable to pay the whole, and the others a considerable portion of it, on behalf of their tenants. 4148. If it be admitted that 25/. a year is the expense necessary to be incurred somewhere or other from the parish, for the support of a poor man having no employment, and having a legal claim upon the parish, a question then arises, whether it would not be more for the interest of that parish, taken collectively, to pay 40/. a year for eight years for the removal of that pauper and his family, the pauper being by law disqualified from ever resuming his claims upon the parish, rather than to continue to pay 25/. per annum, subject to an indefinite increase of that pauper family and his descendants upon the old system ? — Reasoning abstractedly, it undoubtedly would ; but practically we found in Nottinghamshire that the parishes, one and all, refused to contribute in any proportion, though much more favourable terms were tendered to them than those now stated. However, it is my duty to state, that no law exists empowering the parish to apportion this expenditure so as to become payable either by instalments or by annuities, as in the erection of prisons, lunatic asylums, and poor-houses. 4149. If they understood their own interests, are you not of opinion that they would do it ? — Undoubtedly they would, if tht charge was duly apportioned betweea the landlord and the tenant, ayd to be repaid by inctalments. 4150. You have already stated, that it falls upon the landlord's rent, in other words, the average expense of the poor-rate must be deducted in the calculation which the farmer makes before he agrees to pay rent to his landlord ; under those circumstances, would not this saving operate with positive advantage to the landlord, and without the least prejudice to the tenant? — The agreement between landlord and tenant is formed precisely upon the principle that is stated, but when a heavy pressure upon the poor-rates, not originally contemplated by landlord or by tenant, arises, it is invariably customary in our county to reduce the rent proportionally ; generally speaking, of late years, twenty-five per cent has been returned to the tenants in consequence of the charges for the poor and other circumstances. I have known parishes in Nottinghamshire who refused to contribute towards the expense of Emigration, though the expense of maintaining the poor was actually^nore than the income of the parish. 4151. Would not the substitution of acharge of 10/. a year for ten years, instead of a probably permanent charge of 25/., be a diminution rather than an increase of the pressure? — Undoubtedly it would ; but though we raised a voluntary subscrip- tion, and though the principal landowners, and those in whom the people placed the most implicit confidence, undertook that the colonbts should be kindly super- intended. '* r£E ance ?— any etn- r district years of I summer . weekly, ' so well a paupe- (id conse- B are fifty ing-stonea not con- lortga^ng xpense of lortgaging n the first ited to the d arise in into very icting our the build- ratCii were it in every ds thought , on behalf le incurred having no >s, whether pay 40/. he pauper rather than hat pauper ractedly, it le parishes, favourable ny duty to iture so as of prisons, a that they ed between it, in other calculation under those le landlord, len landlord len a heavy by tenant, portionally ; imed to the :es. I have the expense ^ore than 3ars, instead 1 increase of iry subscrip- ■ople placed indly super« intended. ' ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 4o5 intended, carefully located, and treated with the utmost tenderness, yet the parishes could not be tempted to come forward, though it was manifest that the measure would have highly advanced their interests. 415a. W/>uTd It not have done so immediately? — Immediately. 4153. Are you of opinion that when an excess of the supply of labour perma* nently exists, there can be any possible cure for the inconvenience sustained by the labourer, unless the number of labourers be reduced by Emigration ? — It is my decided opinion that the determination of the Lord Lieutenant and the subscribers in Nottinghamshire, tendering colonization, presented the best and in fact the only resource that can be devised when the supply of labour in the market permanently and abundantly exceeds the demand. It is the best resource both for those who a'veand for those who receive relief; therefore I was highly gratified to find that [r. Nolan, in his speech upon the Poor Laws in the House of Commons, brought his argument to the same issue in favour of colonization. Indeed, I conceive that the public are deeply indebted to the Committee, and to tliose who have raised the question of colonization. But then in our case legal provisions were wanting, because neither were the poor compellable under any circumstances to accept colonization, neither was any Act of Parliament in existence which would have enabled the parochial contributors to mortgage the rates for the payment of the expenses incurred, or to prevent the return of the colonists to their parochial settle- ments. Some few of the Nottinghamshire people came back from the Cape of Good Hope, and may again become chargeable. 4154. When you state that the condition upon which you have given your opinion is, that the supply of labour, as compared with the demand, should be permanently excessive, are you not of opinion that a very small excess of supply operates to de- teriorate to a very extensive degree the general condition of the labourer, by the effect which an excess of supply has in deteriorating the value of any article i — We have found it so invariably in Nottinghamshire, and I believe that our county has on such occasions come forward with voluntary subscription to an extent almost unprece- dented in other places. We have, in my recollection, independently of coloniza- tioH, subscribed and raised very large sums for the maintenance of the poor, under tliose sudden suspensions of employment. Many thousand pounds have been dis- tributed in this (hanner ; but although the public liberality is ever disposed to meet occasional contingencies, I do not imagine that it would or could be so exerted in case of a permanent and excessive stagnation in the market of employment. 4155. Supposing the wages of labour are reduced from 12«. a week, at which the labourer can live well, to 9*. a week, at which he can hardly live at all, this at 25 per cent, do you conceivb that it is necessary to remove the same proportion of labourers out of the labouring population in order to restore the rate of wages to their proper standard ? — I do not conceive that when the wages undergo a dimi- nution to any extent, suppose to one-fourth, that it becomes consequently necessary to take one-fourth of the human labour out of the market, because it is well known that an abatement of wages creates a competition for employment among the work- men, which depresses the price of labour more than its due proportion beneath the ordinary standard ; indeed this has been one great source of complaint urged by the frame-work knitters of Nottingham. 4156. Are you of opinion that labour does not differ in that respect from any other commodity which may be in existence in the market, and that consequently if it falls to a price below "what it ought to be at, the only cure for the evil is a diminution of the supply ? — On the contrary I think that manual labour, being the property of small capitalists, or, strictly speaking, of those who are not capitalists. It undergoes in such cases a greater proportionate reduction than other marketable articles ; because the subsistence of the operatives depends upon their weekly wages, therefore if they are to eat they must work, and at such wages as they can obtain. Mr. /tonve// ili0»Rf, called in ; and Examined. 4157. YOU are a land-surveyor in Canada? — I am. »,. . 4158. Are you a native of Canada? — I am. 4159. Have you ever been in this country before? — Never, till about a ' month ago. ^ju- •. ,j,.»^^.,v .,"■•• .''vf^-sw f 5S0. 3E 3 ■ ' ' 4»6«' r» RtT. /. 7. fi«relcr. %i May, ( i\ 4 j'j .n) Mr. Itomill MnuKt, , I w Mr. Motwtll timmt. It May, i8«7. 406 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 4160. In what district of Canada do you reside?— In the London district ; I re* side in what is called the Talbot Settlement. 4161. Will you furnish the Committee with any details respecting sales of land which have been made to settlers having little or no capital, upon the principle of firogressive repayment by instalments? — In thefitll of 1835 I sold 100 acres of and, being Xht north half of lot N* 3, in tlie 5tfa con. of Labo, in the London district, to Peter M'Keller, a native of Scotland, fbr 95/., on credit; since which time he has made a considerable improvement on his lot, and has paid me for the same all except 1 /. 54. ; from my knowledge of hit cireamatances, I have reason to believe thai he hod no means of making toe improvement or paying me, except by his labour. William Cook, a native of Ireland, came to the provmce about eight years ago without any capital whatever ; immediately on his arrival he located a lot ot land under the Honourable Colonel Talbot, upon the north branch of Talbot Road, in the township of Westminster, upon which he has cleared about sixty acres of land, and erected a snug framed dwellinghouse ; A-orn the produce of this farm he has been enabled to purchase and pay for one adjoining, at 300/. In 1820 about forty "retch settiem cnme in a body, and located lands in the town- ship of Lobe ; they were all of the lower order, and with little or no capital ; they have now, almost without exception, lai^ improvements, and yeariy, since the second year of their arrival, have carried more or leas grain to market ; and I shoukl suppose that the poorest amongst them would be able to purchase and pay for 100 acres of land at the price wild lands are selling there. In 1819 about fbrty Irish settlers came to Canada under the direction of Richard Talbot, esquire, and located lands under the Honourable Thomas Talbot, in the township of Lcmdon; they were extremely poor, but they are all in comfortable circumstances now, and many of them are doing exceedingly well. From my knowledge of the country and the manner vy which emigrants generally succeed there, I have no hesitation in express- ing my ^.i-m belief that any industrious man could pay for 100 acres 01 land with ease in five or seven years, from the produce of it, and support a nuall family comfortably in the meantime, 4162. Do you All the situation of deputy surveyor, in Upper Canada? — I do. 4163. You are therefore acquainted with the quality of land, and with the cir- cumstances of settlement in general ? — Yes ; from the situation which I hold in that respect, I have had an opportunity of being very well acquainted with the quality of land, and with the settlement generally. 4164. Are you of opinion that in the case of pauper settlers, it wctrid be prac- tically expedient to advance them, individnady, .assistayce in the nature of s loan, for which they are to give personal security, as well as the security of the land, for paying back interest upon such loan, having the option at their own pleasure to re- riy back the principal ? — With regard to the efiect it would have in this country, cannot give any opinion ; I can only say I have seen a number who have emf- gated from En^and and Ireland and Scotland, attd who Irave located land under ovemment in the settlement where I live, that they have generalh^ socceeded well, and the second or third year they have found themselves coomntably situated, they have had the necessaries of life in abundance> and many of them carry gram to market ^ • 4165. Do yon not think that a settler receiving a ccrtam rate of assistanoe would be benefited extfemety by receiving such assistance, although he sbooU be called apon to pay interest at the termination of a certain period for the money?— There is no doubt of that. 4166. Do yoo think that in point of fact, be would he more benefited by receiviiK such assistance and making himself liable for the repayment of the money advanced, than he would by being left to his own resources without making himself liable for any such repayment?-—! think there is no doubt that his situation would be benefited by receiving assistance upon those terms. 4167. Then, practically speaking, if assistance were to be given to him to the extent of 60/., do you think that he would be able and willing at the end of seven years to pay the sum of 4/. per annum for such loan, that is, the 60/. in- creased by compound interest to the sum of 80/., having the power gi redeeming that 4,1. pef annum at aiiy time by the payment of the 80/., or by effecting such redemption in progressive instalments ? — I think that in seven years a person .vould be able to pay the sum without any doubt ^ 4168. Do TEE Bl; I re- ft of land inciple of ) acres of i Londoii ce whielr ne for the reason to except by bout eigbt le located branch of red about mxldceof 300/. In the town- (ital; they since the id I should ay for 100 forty Irish ind located they were )d many of ry and the in express- nes of land oaaUfunily ?— Ido. nth the cir- 1 1 hold in id with the lid be prac- fshmn, far le land, for lastire tore- his country, r have emi- land utider ceeded wdl, ily situated, carry grain tance would lid be called 3 money J— by receiving 3y advanced, elf liable for be benefited him to the the end of the 60/. in- )f redeeming ffecting such «rson .vould 4168. Do ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : 1837. 407 4168. Do you tbiok that he would bt unwilling to do so when it was explained to him that it was not for rent for his land, but for capital advanced to him to lay out upon his land ? — I should think not 4169. Do you think there would be the slightMt difficulty in inducing him to pay it?— I think not. ' 4170. Do you think there would be any practical difficulty in obtaining that io- forest from the settler? — I diink w^iat property he might possess, if be unproved it daring that period, would certainly be worth a great deal more tbno the sum ad- vanced to them. Jam, S4* die Maii, 1827. The Right Honoitbable R. J. WILMOT HORTON, IN THE CHAIB. Mr. tl$ma Afeiml.' 41 81 . Did tlie demand for labour come from any great extent beyond your own district ? — Within a distance of ten miles applicants came in. 4182. Did labourers come from ten miles, and go back ? — No, they went back at the end of the week ; they generally obtained temporary residences in the neigh- bourhood ; they stuck up a kind of shealing for themselves during the week, the weather was so fine as to admit that. 41 83. Do you suppose that the generality of those labourers who offered them- selves to you were resident permanently on small lots of ground ? — Yes, I have every reason to suppose so. 4184. They were resident on the estates of individuals ?— Yes. 4185. Was your own property very much over-peopled ? — Very much; I got rid of upwards of 1,100, and have still sufficient SSo. 3 £ 4 4186. Whea J.U.MarihaO, Esq. 34 Ma^r, 1837. ] '' *? 4 I !l u • • ■>..' 408 MINUTES OF £VID£NC£ BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. M. MartkaU, Eiq. 04 May, 4186. When you state that you got rid of upwards of 1,100, can you inform the Committee of the proportions of men, women, and children 1 — No, I cannot ; but I include women and children. 41 87. Describe the circumstances under which you ^ot rid of those individuals? — The property thut I allude to is situated on the sea coast ; it was, during my minority, in the management of very remiss agents, who threw no obstacles in the way of as many settlers as chose to frequent it, establishing themselves upon the ground ; numbers, therefore, in consequence of a salmon iisheiy which is in its immediate neighbourhood, and its proximity to the sea, resorted thither ; they were well aware that when I came of age they would be expelled ; consequently, when I noticed them to quit, they threw no obstacles in the way, but left the ground without opposition. Blany of them acquired settlements on the estates of the adjoining proprietors, but, having no means of earning an honest livelihood, they have been necessitated to resort to thieving and vagabond habits for support. 4188. There were in point of fact no leases, but they were, strictly speaking, surreptitious tenantry ? — Yes, they were so. 41 89. Had you occasion to resort to any measures of actual expulsion to remove thenj from your estate ? — None whatever. 4190. Have you means of informing the Committee how and in what manner they dispersed themselves ? — Some of them became be^rs, others, and a great proportion of them, obtained settlements on the estates ot the adjoining proprietors, which they did with greater facility from the knowledge that I contemplated carry- ing on very extensive works, and consequently they could earn the price of their houses in those works of mine ; but I know that when the middle-man's leases on the estates of those proprietors expire, it is the intention of the proprietors not only to get rid of those persons in the way of whose location they threw every obstacle, but also of other tenantry whom the middle-men have brought upon their estates. 4191. In point of fact, when you allude to 17,000 days labour, were any of those labourers who executed that number of days work the very labourers ejected from your property? — Most of them ; I gave the preference to them. 419a. Was the labour executed by contract? — No, they were paid so much a day. 4193. What were the wages you gave ? — Eight-pence a day. 41 94. Do you consider that your property has been actually improved in value since the ejection of those parties, as demonstrated by the amount of your rental ?— Not by the amount of my rental ; my property has mtrinsically, but not nominally increased. 4195. Have the goodness to explain to the Committee the distinction ? — ^The sums offered by the paupers whom I ejected, for their holdings, were infinitely greater than I could obtain for those holdings, if thrown into one, and let to a solvent tetiant who proposed paying the rent he assumed, but the great rent offered for these small holdings was never paid, they bad neither the means nor the intention of paying it. 4196. You adverted, in making the comparison, to the promise of the tenant rather than any expectation of the performance ? — Undoubtedly. 4197. If you were called upon to make a comparison as far as you could between the rent you now receive and the rent which on a fair average you might have expected to receive or did receive in preceding years, which, in your opinion, would exceed the other i — Undoubtedly the rent that I have received since the expulsioa of the paupers has been much greater than any I actually received during their residence. 41 98. With respect to the rent which you received from those paupers whom you ejected, did not the payment of it mainly depend upon the accidental wages of labour that those men were enabled to get in the current year, rather than from the land itself? — What they did pay was paid out of the produce of the lai'd ; in point of fact, there was no demand for their labour till I came to reside amongst them. 4199. Did they consume the whole prdduce of the ground they cultivated among them ? — Not the wb.ole produce ; I can state the proportion that the numbers on one estate I have bore to the size of the estate ; the number resident amounted to two souls to every arable acre. 42U0. Do you consider that the excess of population on your estate was a bar to ftny effectual improvement in the system of farming and management ?— Undoubtedly ■ "^ "■^"':- the ITEE inform the iinnot; but ividualft? — during my acles in the i Upon the ;h IS in its ; they were ently, when the ground tates of the ihood, they )ort. ly speaicing, n to remove hat manner and a great proprietors, ;>lated carry- ice of their I's leases on tors not only ery obstacle, leir estates, any of those ejected from lid so much ived in value »ur rental i — • tot nominally iction ? — ^The ere infinitely et to a solvent It offered for the intention >f the tenant, ould between a might have pinion, would the expulsion i during their «rs whom you !ntal wages of than from the lai'd; in point Qngst them, tivated among le numbers on t amounted to te was a bar to Undoubtedly; ON EMIGRATION FROM TH£ UNITED KINGDOM: 1897. 409 the first measure that I was advised to effect, and the first measure that I perceive k universally adopted on the estate of every improver, is that of getting rid of its wperabundant population ; no plantations, no ditches, no walls, no improvements of anv description can possibly be carried on, as 1 found by experience, while that population i» permitted to continue on the property. 4301. Did you attempt those improvements in the first instance with the popu« lation on the ground ? — I did ; previous to their removal I had attempted improve* ments, such as planting, ditchins and fencing ; the planting I had to renew three times, the ditches were broken down, and in fact all the wcrhs I carried on were rendered unavailing, and required repetition. 4903. Is it not the habit of the population, under such circumstJ**"*!!, to throw the ground they occupy into a sort of commonage that is quite m stent with '. mny permanent improvement? — Yes, it is. 4903. Had you, subsequently to their renjoval, effectually conducted any system , of improvement of that ground ?— I have ; it is in progress. ' 4304. You have been building houses for your tenantry ? — Yes, I have. 4305. Ahd enlarging the tenures 7 — Yes, very considerably. 4306. Can you mform the Committee of the ratio between the amount of land to each ftmily prior to your removing those tenants, and subsequently ? — Prior to 4 their removal, the proportion the land bore to the population resident upon it, was half an acre to every soul, or two and a half acres to every family, estimating each at five souls ; since their expulsion, I have let the land in the proportion of fifteen ^ acres to every family of five persons, or three acres to every soul. 4307. Do you find the condition of the remaining tenantry, to whom you have now allotted the ground, materially improved, compared with that of their prede* cesssors ? — ^They are distinct tenantry ; they are tenantry who have come from other estates on to mme. 4308. Your present tenantry were not a selection made from the general mass * of the population upon your property, but persons more or less competent to cariy on farming operations with advantage? — For the most part; I was prejudiced against those who had resided there before, from the habits they had acquired. "' 4209. Do you think that is a growing opinion in Ireland, that this excess of population is in the highest degree prejudicial to the individual interests of pro* prietors ? — Undoubtedly I do, it is an opinion almost universal. 42 to. Are you of opinion that any measures can be devised for the absorption of this population which it may be desirable for individuals to remove from their pro- perty, so satisfactory as a judicious system of Emigration? — None so satisfactory in conjunction with that wish, now so universal among the Irish landlords, of getting rid of the superabundant population, and of keeping their estates free from it, a wish which the late Act against sub-letting will enable them more fully to carry into effect. 4311. Are you of opinion that there is any chance of applying this excess of population beneficially in the improvement of the waste lands, as contrasted wi^ that of removing them to the fertile lands of one of our colonies ? — I think not. 4212. Can you contemplate any adequate employment for them at home?— Certainly not adequate. 4213. Arc you of opinion that in consequence of this growing conviction, that the population which exists upon the property is prejudicial to the interests of the pro- prietors, and that no means exist of absorbing this population at home, any dis- position would exist on the part of proprietors to contribute towards the removal of this surplus population? — I think there would; for my own part I should be willing to contribute ; and I think others, on the same principle, would be willing 10 do the same. 42 1 4. Taking the population in the proportion of a man a woman and three chil- dren to each family, do you think they would be prepared to advance money for the purpose of Emigration, at the rate of 4/. per head? — I think they would. 4315. If instead of advancing 4/. per head, they had the power under an Act of Parliament of charging their property with an annuity of 3;. 6d. per annum for sixty years, upon whicii 4/. might be raised, do you think they would be disposed to prefer that mode, or to advance the sum necessary at once ? — I think they would be disposed to prefer advancing the money at once; I can only answer for myself. I never heard the question started in Ireland,, therefore I cannot answer for the opinion of others. * 431 6. Arc you not of opinion that if this system of removing pauper tenants 550. 3 F fro« J.M.MtnkaH, '\, I >4 '< I ■ 410 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEK from the lands, bj mooey advanced for their Emigration b such proportions, w«ra generally brought into operation, the inducement for iodividual proprioton (a pursue such a system would increase as it became more general? — Yes. 4317. Is there a disposition on the part of th« poor in the county of Kerry to take advantage of any resources for Emigration f — ^Very itrona ; it is what most of the poor r. ould prefer, had they the power of carrying their wishes into execution ; but It IS conceived to be an object beyond the attainment of the lowest daw ; thoau who have hitherto emigrated have been of abetter dcacription, who could command capital and stock. 43 1 8. It is an object above the reach* but within the wishes, of the lower orders? —Yes. 4919. Do you not conceive that to arise from the very satisfactory account received from those who have emigrated ? — In some measure, but principally from the extreme wretchedness of the people, and the conviction that any change must be for the better. 4330. The people in general have a favourable idea of the state of those who have emigrated ? — Yet, they have, as far as the matter has fallen within my observation. 4331. Do you not conceive that it is the well understood intcirest of every pro- prietor, whose estate is over peopled, in a pecuniary point of view, to get rid of that surplus population, and let his ground in another manner tlian has been usual in the south of Ireland ? — I think, ultimately, it undoubtedly is, though many resident proprietors are desirous of having a considerable population on their estates, in con- sequence of the cheapness of labour, and the competition and consequent high rent offered for land, a rent which though never paid, if money be required, is generally discharged by means of labour. 4333. Does not your answer imply that the proprietors have an object for the labour of those persons ?— Undoubtedly ; but works of all kinds may be undertaken, such as agricultural works. 4333. with regard to your answer, are you of opinion thst in ordinary cases, where the purposes of labour are no other than the average purpob7> of agricultural cultivation, the cheapness of labour would operate es a pecun\ff.iy inducement to parties to continue this tenantry upon their estates ?— I think it /night, but it ousht not to be an inducement equivalent to the many evils which the coatinuance of that tenantry upon their estates would create. 4334. With respect to the intrinsic value of two properties ten years hence, 00 one of which this extra tenantry were allowed to remain, and from the other of which they had been removed and an improved system of agriculture introduced, what would you expect to be the result with respect to the value of those proper- ties, supposed to be equal at the commencement ? — I am confident that that pro- perty which had been freed from its superabuni' tni: population would be infinitely the most productive. 4335. Supposing, from the abstraction of population, wages were to rise, and the condition of the peasantry to be improved, and their habits to be improved, do you not consider that more work would be done by men under the due state of wages than can be expected under the present wages ? — No, I do not think there could. 4326. Are you not of opinion that improved processes of husbandry, improved implements, and in fact general improvements in agriculture, would have the effect of making less manual labour necessary than is the case at present ? — Undoubtedly. 4227. Therefore, agricultural capital, as it is called, generally introduced into Ireland, however advantageous it might be to the interests of the landlord, would have a necessary tendency to throw further out of employment thos^ labourers who are now only partially employed ? — An improved system of husbandry, as it would in a great measure dispense with manual labour, would certainly have that effect. 4228. You consider, therefore, that circumstance as an additional reason why it would be desirable to remove this excess of labour by Emigration ? — Yes. 4229. Were you enabled to remove those numbers of people from your holdings without fear of disturbance arising ? — Yes, I was. 4230. There was no resistance, nor any insecurity of life or property ? — Not of life, but there was of property. 4231. Do you think there would be an inducement to landlords to get r ' )f their tenantry by some pecuniary sacrifice ? — I think there would. 4232. In the case of your pauper tenantry removed from your property, do you not think that tiieir passive endurance of removal was to be attributed to the know- i ledge TEE DM, wer* iuton to Kerry to t most of lecution; !•; thoM ummaod it orders? y account wily from ;cmiut be those who vithin my everv pro- rid o'f that n usual in ly resident ;es, in con- [uent high equired, is ct for the indertaken, nary cases, igricultural ucement to lit it ought ince of that hence, on ie other of introduced, Dse proper- t that pro- e infinitely ise, and the 'ed, do you :t: of waees ire could. improved e the effect adoubtedly. jduced into lord, would wurers who as it would at effect, reason why Yes. >ur holdings '?— Not of get r ' >f jrty, do you the know- ledge ON EMIGRATION FBOM THE UNITED UNT. DOM iSt?. 411 ledge they had, that the works that were going on w< 111 aib .11 eaipioyrncnt for their labour? — No, I cannot say that, it was numlNMW «. -n thr (utiiitry, •one intending to go to England, and others tu beg, 1 parteu ' ■> at U' <; oppu ^tion as those who proposed ramainiog in the neighboi Ik^m). 4933. Do you think that that exocnment coula have been nuu^ 'i et jal Mfc* in any other district of the soutli or Ireland ? — I think not, m eiu.^r Ti^jperar) Cork or Limerick. 4334. Your observation therefore, as to the facility of canyu.,, hub sort of oioval into practice, relates more to your own county than it would do as a general observation in respect of the south of Ireland ? — Yes. 433,5. Suppose one landlord finds considerable benefit from the removal of his surplus tenantry by Emigration and the improvement of his estate, would not that be an inducement to other landlords to follow his example ? — It would undoubtedly be an inducement to other landlords to follow his example in clearing their estates ; but I doubt whether the desire to make pecuniary sacrifices to enable their ejected tenantnr to emigrate, would go on progressively increasing. 4330. Would there be a greater difficulty in absorbing the number of people thrown out of employment, if many landlords acted upon that principle at once, without tlia aid of Emigration? — Undoubtedly. 4337. That would be a great inducement to make some pecuniary sacrifice for the purpose ? — Yes. 4338. Are you not of opinion that if the principle of removing the surplus popu* lation who are without resource from estates, by some mode like that of Emigration, is not soon adopted, the time will come at no distant period at which the present state of things must stop, from the danger which would practically attend it ? — I am sure it will. 4339. Do not you conceive that the people themselves have an impression that their numbers are so great that the country cannot afford them any adequate em* ployment? — Certainly ; all that I have conversed with, confessed thnt. 4340. Are you not decidedly of opinion that if landlords proceed to improve their property by the natural measure of dispossessing surreptitious tenantry, the effect will be to produce a very extensive emigration of Irish labourers into England ? — Unquestionably. 4241. Are you not of opinion that such emigration cannot and will not be avoided, unless strong laws were to be passed preventing actually their landing in the country r — I am confident of it ; and tliose laws it would be difficult to carry into effect 4243. Do you not conceive that in order to give effect to the same system of im- provement upon which you have acted, in other districts of Ireland equally over- peopled, it would be absolutely indispensable that some system of Emigration should go hand in hand with that improvement? — Undoubtedly. 4243. Do you consider that a growing disposition prevails in landlords in Ireland to get rid of the pauper tenantry ? — Yes, the expulsion of the superabundant popu- lation is now generally considered the primary step preparatory to all other improve- ments, for, without such a measure, improvements would be rendered nugatory. 4244. Do you not think that unless Emigration affords relief,the inevitable con- sequence of that dispossession will be to drive imiAense multitudes of that pauper tenantry into England? — Certainly. 4245. Are you not of opinion that if Emigration upon sound and satisfactory principles were to be afforded to those parties, they would be induced to take ad- vantage of such Emigration, rather than to come into England on the experiment of obtaining Itlbour ? — I am sure of it ; coming to England is looked upon by them as one of the last experiments to be tried, whereas emigration is considered one too good for the lower orders to expect. 4246. Are you of opinion that the evils of that superabundant population in Ire- land are so intense and so likely to increase rather than to diminish, that if the excess of that population can be removed at present and an effectual check introduced for the future, it might be expedient fur Ireland to pay the interest of any money that might be necessary for the purposes of making this clearance, taking upon herself a counter security from the emigrants who would be removed to the colonies?— I am confident it would be expedient in Ireland to pay the interest of any turn ex- pended in removing its superabundant population, rather than suffer the evils arising from their further continuance in the country ; but I think the Advantages of Emi- Eation so great to ttie empire at large, that the expense of such removal should be irne in common, and not imposed solely upon Ireland. 550. 3F2 V. I I J I •v« ttter Rohiiuen, Efq. •4 M«y, 1817. 41a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTftl Pet€r RoUtuon, Eaq. again called in ; and fyrther Examined. 4347. HAVE you any Plan of a Settlement to lay before the Conimitte* ?-^ , I have, and can give to the Committee a pku of the uaual modo of siirveyiua lands in Upper Canada. The townshipt ure (generally 1 a miles square, and divided into lota ot 900 acres each ; the principal divisions are the concetiion linet, running •bout a mile and quarter asunder, on which there is an allowance for roads ; in- tersectina those concettion Unti there are also roads laid out one mile asunder, and io tome uutances one mile and a half apart. [TV tVUmu Mvered in the Pkm.*] li I » Jr.. !■/ 111^ ' - • J '' ' .^' ■ .1 . ■.., 1 , j / #• .. tfw •. ■ 1 ON EMIGRATION PROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 4ii : • i • • 1 CM liiihi. r > : M I • • * • * ; -^ ', , : ; V ' l o> 1 • t ' »* • ?• ,' * 1 - ! Hs 1 « i; i 1 . 1 P 1 1 *' ' • 1 1 M ♦ \ •fr- , « • •S3J3B 09 ] off p, •sajOB off 1 oS ? 1 if 3F3 o S =1 I *'ji •'i :*■<■,' 414 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE BErORE SELECT COMMITTEE h n i*/l , I Etq. » ^ 1 •4 M«y, i8«7. .*- ^ 1-: n ■^ IK 'ft ■^^ 4248. Each emigrant is called upon to keep in order the road that immediately surrounds his lot ? — According to this mode of survey, each migrant is placed on a main road, which he is obliged to clear of the timber io front of his lot^ and to assist in keeping it in repair afterwards. 424^. What is the proportion of land to the lower class of emigrants which the Council of Upper Canada have thought it most expedient to allot to them ? — The lowest proportion which has been granted to voluntary emigrants has been 50 acres; at the present time they grant 100 acres or more, according to their means of cultivation. 4350. Supposing that Emigration were to be carried into eSect on an extended scale, and coupled with the expectation of repayment for such advance as might be made to the emigrant for his subsistence and implements, &c., what is the size of the grant which you think weuld be amply sufficient for each emigrant family of five persons } — If it was an absolute pauper family, I <«m of opinion that 50 acres of good land would enable him to repay the money advanced him for his subsist* ence, &c. at the end of seven years, or any given time, as certainly as if he was located on 1 ''n acres or more, as the average number of acres he would be found to have cleared at the end of seven years would not amount, generally, to more than twenty. *■ ' -^ 4251. You Aave heard it stated tocpulation tnada, and to each. proportioa eland as it equal the d, the lots i the dimi- 1 benefit to e df being oads would ; merchants Let, in con- uld have in ge for mer> i emigrants, with lots of :rstood that 'fifty acres, better they to consist of ifty acres to the land in er upon, in remedied in seven years e industrious ending their he assbtance try to enable d that in the dr interest as ; their lots to iper emigrant ion better for him quite as 4356. Are ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1897. 415 > 4256. Are you enabled to furnish the Committee with the actual state of the p,/«r ilo6i«*o«. Settlement of the emigrants removed from tiie south of Ireland in the year 1 825 ?— E»q. I beg to give in a Return of the statement of that Settlement on the a4th of '"^ — ' November 1 826, containing a return in detail of improvements made by those settlers H ^'*y» who were located under my superiatendenf^ in the districto of Newcastle and Batbursb If . [7%e tame wat delivered in, and read; and it at foUtmi •] 18*7. ■ ♦ » » » m. ♦ ■ ►*# m m M m i.A i,:> RETURN X I' .!►* 4i6 MINUTES OF EVIDteNCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ' «Q: ,. .■•.<...■ ft ,a • s SS OS e ^¥>' '^ • M Vfir tf ' - >, < ,^■■* ,; ' ' * -^' e. -..^ •;'■ 9 • » ij *" *■ •!* .Baa . « i: i a S «! s .a fa-S-a-l .5 J3 -5 b" g'ja •= •f S, 3 3 g o o ■£ S a a-g 5 . -s II .Si .9.3 B e « " a -g . s "tt a la •Jo Si I •J •a .r .9 ■3 i bo a '> u •a ■3 lllll I I IM aiiii irillM I I I I '^ I I I l« II •• I I I I M I n .. 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I R'82 ' neinn <^ ££$<8 9Sl 88.818 8^83, 8i8 d M M M M ^ ^fr^OS t^too t. j%%3i Jti%73%% % ^^11^ % 4i%%i« ^ %%%%% % ^ I ^ |%%%f>j * 1 1 1 1 ^ lllll I » 1 1 1 1.4 1 lllll I lllll I • I I I I I I I I -=v I .« n I I I •• * lltl MMlLII I lllll I I I I I m t m t m '^l I I I I I i, I I I lllll I I' I I I I I I I I I I M I « M t««« iou>u> «(o 4-(o t^ ^ aiioii w<9icii iniiiix •• - I M loetXMs c« I ; • lllll iIkoo (o lllll iiioiitsi lllll I I r^utosiiotii 'QCkO rOCMMM «■ «^'4-w)a* ee *e o I in mawio t«>»a» a» o e (s M « e •• o>o» _. - ■ - * I t • I I a I I I • '*m% f • till! I ■ • » « • B « • "oS • I ■ S t ^1 M\l f^t' I I ■■<«• ■i ■: f' ■'*■ 41« MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOkE SELECT COMMITTEE W'i I I •' i S I M> o a^j ^ "9 IS '•fi_j a S 5^ i i-a " ff .ita § "BlS a l-a e*"*^ i-S I 2 I il I"! II ^^ii- I .^j|sb|JJ:2J* * • ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM; 1827. 419 B ' M I e« I « (O t I I I I I I « I II So I I I - < U> I M \ m •» A S iS iS^% 00 I O I <« ■ ' ■ ' I I t ■ • I I I ■ • I • i^ it 1 1 1 i 1 1 •• i 1 1 1 1.1 1 ^ i 0» 1 (O 1 (0(0 1 1 i gg^jrs's? Wg:«> !?«^SS • I 1 • ■ ■ • •III ssisa^ Si> = 11 •d I I %8 ■ I I I II I I I I I •« I I I n I I I I I I e I to I I I % I I I ^ I I 0> I CI I I ■ •till I ■ I I I I i I I I I I I I I •• I I II I I I I I O I ^ I I ^ £§3 I i •c 8 » 3 * o toSH . ^ •iJai^ I mill I I I I I I ill I t« I I I n I M :?'a I S. I , &p- I U) I 818 I t^ I rNUi 5» 00 n (O o 8 CO n • I I •a a ' 1111 I I I I I I ' I I M I « «0 I U3M o> I a I ~ I <•> n I « I •*3'1 I gj "8 «« eo 1^ o I I n I ^ I >a I (o I •-• « ei d 00 0> 0> Ok 0)00 e^CO mm et crci>'Ci«>eicici on o u M 1 til 9 •5 8 § a J ii-S » •^(Sl eJ eefe, eatin M«U M I I I • I I I I I I I • I I I I i 3 G 2 -a Tj c c5 P. « 5 I I I I # i^ ! ' i:i^ :|| 430 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE . i) J Hi llu I j m n k, •» n i i CO 1; f 1^1 =!dili 1^ I III 1 1\ u\ tM St % I 1 c-9 a =S S"^ ^ajf, Ills It llll nl II III «M| I-"- II II -II nil III llll I I a' %%. »' ft' 1^' 3. fa- ll I •• II CO I •* W) I I &£ as 8; • 9 ' £ ' • ^& S88S 8 ' 8' 8 ■ S 8 8 • Mp^WOI »« M P« CI ^d llll I' §' VI !§' W>«C(0 W> CO I U» I 0» I 49 « U) I • •It ■! II III III b Its 8 11 H III II II III llMl II Ml Xlt MM I I I I i I II III III I •• I I I I I I I I I I I I I « I I «• M 111 I I I I «• I III * ' ' I ' R I I I W> I I W) I <» I I I M I I I I I I I I I I '<8 ' 'o <^ iq into i i will fl)i II ii^i oil e leiiiMMMieiiiiM I Ommm OS e> e>o> Q.QS. m « «■ o> a»meoaooci e>Oi:^ae*u)tito m eineom mm aia rjAn aia«i m M« ' o> M « « a 8 l»SBp4^'pi H • ■ • • B • • iCllll I ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 431 Hill ft:?9 88^*8 §§l f » ■ • • • • ••••• ^ ^ ^ nfl ^ T) t) 1 1 1 1 I I I I •• I CO I wk ^>* .\ m m I % s r> 14 lAee « I •< e» a> <• I I I « - I I « I M I I -II I « I «• t I I % I I I I I III I O I « I I ^igi '3&' •:? 88 I I II'" !§' 'Mill 4- >o I I e ad ■3 is ^|' ' t?r5<2«8fe' :?2'5 t1 e 9 o I ^5 I u) I I 8 I S ii^i i8S8i^%tSSiS f* w* m o|1 iS *■ 2 01 S« hi ii a lll>Si §|i |8i%i i8|S8||i8Si8 n^u) I M I n u> aiiiol lciR>vou)e«|«ieiiee I I I I I I a?' • 8%3 §1! ♦ - 4 ■ •••II • « I I •••! ^•'••••Ill^l ■ Ilk • i I '■4 llllll II I « 1 1 1 1 II \ ^ i m w* r« I r>^» I t^oo w * I llll I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I r I "III i'«ii'~iii»iiii llll I -lll'lll>-llM|tlll| llll o «B I o) I I u>io«o a I 00 <^ I I ^ *«« i <• •• " nm o> nn r«eo so og « cvcjm « a r-» ^H^'WH^ 2 H 00 03 ^tiZ^ ;zcaSB^H:2S<»Si!;(»SB2a;(» ^'siuSB ' § I I I ■ llll lllllllltllll III*. -s t S 1 William ward Richard Michael eremiah 1, Jeremi 1 1 9 Mulcahy, Shea, Ed SulliTan, Sullivan, Boland, J Callaghai <-> i a a s U 5 <"§„,' 1 1 1 1 I 1 I _ I 1 I o 5 a-a feiSi§ §3 S i s|s sio sis' s; [ij tSu , -•;. ■.-%^. hi " • 1 • t 1 1 1 1 II 1 1 1 1 K' 8' ' ' * t 1 1 1 1 8 ' &!?' ' 1' m' i> ii§< CO 1 • •«•- 4 . — r- ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 433 s I 111 1 IK ^ II ■i 1 3 11 Itl^l^lt 5 1 • 11^. 1 S> It » ' «o ■*> T» « I I till II r r I I III I I I I III 8>S>£ ' • S^ ' r « - I I - I 5!t«' '<8 ggS^i 18 m I 191 ^^n I I n I i' I • I • f I t / f I I III I II 1 1 1 >^ 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 >» t»>o 1 •• 1 4 Mill «i(0 2^ ImM t«« griEtdSB < I r I III r r I •• I I •• I • I iiiliiixiMi iinii iinii iii« I II I I I I I I I I I I I I « I II I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I t %&' • 'S^'c 1 00 «oe eo oo 1 1 o> i I I I I s- et I I I t I t o> I I I I I I I I ao> I I I I o I I I o ■J -Pl-i .4 III4 I, • I .S, I 11 I • I » I I • t I I iSS II 114: ill a I O ore 3 n ^-.lll||.p. u-S S.a S :5l§li5-cs2 fi^ f^" 11 U a '^.58 fS > 9 I I I f f t: t:^ S . « I I . oS'i 01 U S> 4J O (n n cs n o "Si S 3 .«^ •^ .^ S3 ^ t^ eo uTu -" £• o o c ■^ S S ° QQU».S tp3 550. 3G %S% I I X I I IIIII I I I I (S<8t8 888 I' I ' -I' ' 'III I Ml •*>^l»»i'^i^n<4-nnoi lujr^x^ ii >-.iO CO <0 t^OO 00OOa««O^W)iAOO e«e«coco^ •• n ♦^to it>C» i^i^a W35W 55 ^ p4 * ^ri 3:WS5S5'»o5S5SB!Z»<»S5^M S5<»<»S5»5 (A % 09 ;z t» J5«J!zi^ ■ III III I f I 11 IIIII 'jlllltlll IIIII IIIII III! III! ^ •Ma :§ §■£! o >.^o ; ■ 1 )4 I i'l ll i 4»4 HI s M MINUTES OF EVIDENCE DEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE S \ I Ui'i lli* I u n n ..ii ij.i I I <.*! I i S: 4 ni II lU i I !i 11 iJ IL I ! ^'ilj II |i i1 ij iii i|j I r iiiiiii il II Hi HI Id 1 1 I I I I I I t I I I I I I I I M I I I I I III I I I I I I I I I I 119 9 1 88 I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I '3<8 ' 8 ' 'ft 110 9 1 ll'I'SIII I I nu) I (o I « n4-u) I - I I I I I o,9 I • !<8 I I I ft!?' ^ ftS I « §r i W) t • I I I • ••••••lllt*^ ••• • |4)%;,Jb4iJb%%^^ I |«^ I l^^ll 4 I I I I I I I I I I I III I lllxllX'lll I M.<| 1 I I I I I I I x -• I " I III r I I o> I wito I 00 ee M u> •■ (O •• I I I I I e I I I I I I I I I o • •Illllllll • III ■ I I I I III I I I I III I 9 I e >9 I I i'z S I I I I III 1.9 I '<8 a'!? I o I I I' ' 8 ' • I 9 I l'§ §'§ I W I X ♦ I « • • • • 11 Tj t8 TJ I I I I II I I I I I I I II I (« I *» ^ I I I I I I •: I I I 3 I I I I I >ow)>o(o I I I I I «e t^OMnn^- <*• m ts r<.aa • fij^H'o^^cdS^^'cii^H «S 2«SSS CO SC>'c4^'pd ^'^'sd^'(iii» SBi/) • I • • • • ■ • Mi I I - I I •♦O 'f fi^i8- *££ !d Is 1 Mil 1 1 1 1 III 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 • 89^' 1 1 1 1 III 1 t 1 < £%' fSA ' U l§* ' u '§11 « MM « 1 ■♦♦ MMM* 1 n** 1% t • I • • I • •■III ^t^hhhh II 1 1 1 1 1 1 II 1 1 1 - 1 1 II 1 1 1 1 1 1 U) 1 <^r> 1 o»>Q(o II 1 1 1 1 1 2 m m ^ m m m W<^ SBadaoaBOJs I • I t • I • I s' II S QMSauo OiN EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINODOM . iSa;. 4'i5 i2 ;3;:3 1 ^ ;3 i % • n 1 1 1 1 1 1 « 1 1 1 1 1 1 5 1 1 ) 1 1 ,1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 o 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 * 1 1 I. 1 M 8 • • J ' » 1 1 1 1 t 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 « 1 1 - 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 » « 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 t 1 1 1 o '4'0 _") 1 1 1 1 AOO 1 1 1 Ot^iO 1 1 1 I 1 « 2 1 1 1 « 1 1 1 1 1 1 * ^MSJI^'m ^'u'/iSiico^'uiaBSs' ' V i^'i • r' 1 1 t ■ I • 1 1 1 • • 1 •5 at O 'A W .s ■- •a a 3 I < H U * ' > > ' M, < ' ' ' d J ^ 9 ■■' o a B n (5 ^ rt ^ ^ ^ I > o e ►■. " J." ?■ I J J =3 ■ SiSri .a f-- !^ XT J 3 -5 J' - = » I I I I I I ?.a' ' ^ ' <3a$ 8 9, 8 ' 88 ' S, I O. I I I I I %n 88 8 8'88S88'' 8 ' 8 88 u» ♦ CO eo I ♦ CQ CO coto II 00 i \o w: r* I II I I I I I I I I I • I I 11(1 tl • iiltllflll i I llli S u St s< 3 fl -WO t) -fl TJ "O -O -a fl flflflfl I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I W I « I ei - I - I I I - I I I III--IIII I I ll-l ott-* t« n I i»ao c♦■•♦ I I I I I I to cocO'^-^i-i^e^cito to I** t^oo 00 o , • — • ... . . . . ■ I I I I I I., • I • • t I I III! ■ I • I t 1 550. jj I I I I • < t I • " -J • 3H i« il •4al> MINUTES OF F.VIDENCK HF.KJIIK SKLELT tOMMlTfEE •iii S 3 ^ immmihh i II t I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I <• I II II •• I I I I I I I I I I I I I I •• I I I I I I I I I I I II ^1 J I I I I I I 1 I I I I I I I 'H I I I I I I I I I I I II IH-I Q I I ? ' ' ' &' R' ' a' :?' 8,R I I I 8 . 8 8 ■ • "- I I >o I I I ?i I I % 1^1818 llll III §• § 11 II' '§8 ' 'U' § 'M'I'll' §i§88. i w^ W to ^ I I *#* I ICOtll -♦ lC9IO|WI«tC| -♦« ««0 P3 (O ^ II I I ( I t I I 1(11 I I ■ I t I I I (III I I I • ,1 I I ( ( I • I • I I I II t lll'llllhi iQtIl !• Ii, 4,^^4,%^ ^ ^^%% ^ ^43^^^%%%|| ^11'%)^ leh I t I • I i I I llll I llllllllll llll I I li 8£ CO « I I I I « I I I I I I X I i .s II I I I I I I I llll I llllllllll I I I I M ' I I fe ^ I h* w r^ 00 r^ I I C)(0 I lti >n t^ teeoi-> t^ t»ao co Oioi" r^ vi <» n n^^iin utm coi^^^soJiix?' K SSoiKai w SiScoZco^coZco^co S^coiEciiSs' caSb • * tiiiii I III* I llllllllll itiii II '1 iiiiii I ''«§' iiiiqi'I I S ' ' ' »• si I^j4ii i ill! I W A y 1 i^ -.. M Hill S 3 i§H I lllllilsl-l flKi 11 ■«!■• •^ i>,« iE I i 1 •« 1 II (II II III II 9, ' ' ' g. ' •*• 1 1 nm 1 1 ' Rft' ' ' ,i8. |i 888 1 |. n nio n lo ♦ I I I I II Sill t t TJ Tj t3 ^ 1 1 1 1 II -III P4 1 1 1 1 •• II >o 1 lO - m «o « 1 1 t> 1 II P4 M >o>o oSBtiJSB* caSB fill • I • I I » I 111? i\ I if ON RMIGRATtON FROM THE UNITED KINODOM 1837 1 r««» II II 1 1 1 •; 1 1 1 tCiD t^ r^ n e* -^ 9 5 a5 J5 e« J5 W ... .£.. «3 5c « Z t« CO (R J5 2; CO -g J r • III I I I I I I • I I I I ■ I „ I I < 3 3 .^ ""J ■3 9e| _--3 c ,r' -1 U -— Q (^ ? 9 di ^ X iB U £-U ., a us -> § o .i oT ,: " ^Q -Has -U s pi V JH ,j.)^ z as 13 Cd g-o -"g-S ... I ■ I «• «• I I I I I I I I I ... - « I I I I I I I I I M I I I I I I M I I I I I I I I I ' ' S8 ' 'apv5 ft' ' 8»ft' i xTw? ^nl I l<0W)n«ll |wm««~«l cS*-Sft ' '<8S>5!o to r» I oioo oa ..i * t->a9 ta >n i- 1» i -.1 I I I «< I n I I I to to <0 (O r>. I I o O) :7) p p 01 ojto to oioj-^'Oiom n ■4- tU^WcdSr^H^M^U^bj^Ubj^'^ I I k > I . * I .11 I I I . I . I . . . I . . I i I I .■8-i al 3H2 I i 4«f RflNU'TES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE § CO {•a »Tj •g' |& ■ V • »-c .3-5 9 , k 9 • bo 9 9 ■S B i i<5«i$?io n I t<>oo I os eoi^ i "& oo I I |i-ir«»-'-iio« eo OJOi »0«U5'+'*OU5t^OiO>-<- to ;?.ir ■^ I ^H ^'h ^' >^U09M^;3H^^H>'^' H II II lllltllllillll I I I ■ I I •Ht: S3,? u 5 ■S .S ss II JS.S OS Bi3 wbSSSu o^.SPc3 § Si.=Ti •5 .a 01 M f H U CO J3 03 m M I I « CO CO I X I I n I I I I I I I I (O t" I CO ' s,^'a o o o ' 2,2. • *" CO CO f^ '11 'I (O M ocoto I I I I. I I I I I I I I I I I >'4' « e> " O I till! ■•§,•5 • n CO «• o M , M n M M ' HHHMtd • ,1 S at,.S § •S » O H u e H U CO < o s u s- 1i >- i 1 i o mn 1 w m M t f ♦ loll « 1 1 1 1 1 . JW a 01 -III , r» t- eo * r» t- , w ^ 8 - - - -. • Heniy, Michael • Henry, James Conningham, Jolm Connin);ham, James Comeilio, Charles M'Guire, James - 1 1 1 1 v> S5 en n o •3 < o 1- ' ^ (d h Hi ■M *« g^ • So X^ 1 1 M 1 m M ,. M 1 n 1 1 J 1 till 1 1 1 1 1 « « 1 1 1 1 1 88 8 n « «> .' "II 1 ■♦ ^*ft«5 CO 1 I 1 . §. . ' b E u tailo - shoe - farm d° • -« 1 - t « 1 - 1 1 IN 00 t^CI t^ jr 1 1 1 , -• « v n , g:^'HH • I I 1 1 1 1 .... , neU, Willi kly, Timo van, John te, Cornel Tola §M1| uMm^ 1 t 8 1^1 r-4 "^ ^88 1 11 8 « c. « '4- 1 S^ iS 1 00 00 C3<«-'+ 1 1 00 in 1 u) 1 fanner - - mason - • farmer - - distiller farmer - - d* - - fisherman - farmer - - carpenter - farmer ■• - d* - - • 1 1 t 1 1 1 1 II III 1 1 1 « 1 1 1 1 - « 1 « 1 00 -" 1 1 1 1 1 - N 1 III <♦■ (0(0 ooto 1 1 eo i^ r« 1 wj 1 eo «5 (O « « 1 1 fO * 1 •" 1 CT 1 ■ 1 m « ^»x^a^» H 125 «(»• . 1 Bourke, Edmond - Wall, William Callaghan, Thomas Sheehan, Michael Callaghan, John • Callaghan, Thomas Quinlan, John Dowman, Robert - Dimond, Edmond Dimond, William Murphy, Denis Murphy, Jeremiaih 1 1 1 ij 2 I -!• S m 1 ■* y \ M^ 430 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE « ^ ^ H a > O « OS £? H < 3 J. ■¥ !l Ji 1-^S m 8 •= Px 1-^ « « t I n £ 3<3 i 3 I § '8 8 8 ▼ 0* 00 (O a 'S •" 9 tS •" g o •i^- ^1 8.. ■- t: I a = s -3 a g :^ t ■ I I I I I I to C7 t>. O I « ^' ^ ^ ' ., ' J I * . * I jt i s s ^ 5*-'. ii < O H -ik' "*"^- • • . » •*■ -# »«. ■i> ON £MIGRATIOK FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 43 « < en 55 d "■ - « m m !>• « ro 00 c, - VO VO (0 w Q S ■■ g CO Ok 00 00 ^e >» n k pa P4 «o ' •* *o •*• « »n <:* 1 • 1 1 |.,=- Ok cS ?o 00 1 "^ t-« M 0^ ^ lO c^ ^ •* CO 3 M 1 ^ CO M — ■* »« M fm rm tf$ P4 pa <) hN U »] 8.-^ IC c 00 § § CO P M !>. »o 10 g >o 00 CO cT •♦ >o « lis e 1 FN »o PI t^ ,." ■^f rS in 1^ - in M »o rt ^ H «5 ri 09 . -1 •3 < Pi S ^ «o s § § »o 00 0. 5 s 1 ^ 1 I M ^ o" 3? o> ^ ^0 (5 i>. ao 00 9, i< (£ «» •" « to * ij^ Hit* ">* MiN * XIK ■« "** >c eo CI 00 00 . «D ^ 3 :r CO CO « « m ; ■ «0 « fc^-s 1 3 •t - <^ t^ VO »c w^ r^ ■«f eO »n « «o >c ■* J ■ 1 I 1 * 1 1 1 1 1 • 1 1 1 1 1 t ? , 1 1 - 1 1 1 ,%'■■ A * I S ' J ' ' ■ 2 1 1 1 W ' * 1 - t « ' ' < g M 3$ <-) O M a 9 . 6 n a R >* . ►< H , H s S £ >5 J 5 "< » S » a a H ■ A in 3' * * S H s c« W a < s^ a a n • • > " • — i. • • ' , fc ■ "' Ci CO ■♦ »0 (O !'> 00 0( r« t . . 1 i • .■-^ :m^.. •t- < ,# #, ^i^ ^ vt ^* '1 *!■ 4.- * m\] .i| 550. 3H4 «' s 43a MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE. SELECT COMMITTEE Capt. Jl'illiam AlaritaU. 94 May, 18-27. * -»■ ; Captain fVilliam Marshall; further Examined. 4257. HAVE you heard the evidence given by Mr. Robinson? — I have. 4258. Htve the goodness to state your opinion, founded on your experience in locating settlers, as to the proportions of land which pauper settlers ought to receive? — 1 dift'er in opinion from Mr. Rcbinson; I think that fifty acres is too small a qunntity, that it ought to be a hundred acres; one reason is, that in every location the person requires a reserve for fuel and fencing tiinb«r, which may be taken at twenty or twenty-five Hcres on each location, which would reduce the fifty below the quantity a family would require for their ultimate success and comfort. 43.5Q. You 'Tie of opin'un titerefore it would not be expedient, even in the case of good land, to allot so i^mall a portion as fifty acres? — Certainly, I think not; where it is very good land and near to some good market- it might answer the purpose; but not in general cases. There is no coal in the district ; they can look only to wood for fuel, and they Can look to that only as being on their own land^ for when the country becomes settled, it will alt become private property ; the reserve of five-and-twenty acres will always afford futl and fencing, it being cut ' ;'ularly and preserved in a proper manner. In all lots of land there is generally :onsicrerable portion of bad, which would reduce the quantity of arable land. 4260. Is there such a thing as underwood in regular cuttings? — It will grow u;> of course, and being properly attended to and taken care of, so proceed regularly through the reserve, it will in the course of time be fit to be cut '^gain by regular rotation of cuttings. fnUidm Bowman Felton, Esq. ; further Examined. B. Felton, 4261. YOU have had an opporMnity of hearing the evidence of the two last^ F»q- Witnesses? — I had. 4202. Are you disposed, from your personal experience, to give your opinion in favour of the more extended, or the more restricted lot?- As far as respects the capacity of a settler to pay the interest on the loan made to him, or the principal of the loan itself, the purpose will he equally well answered by locati.ig him on fifty acres as on any larger quantity ; and in *^e generality of cases, where the land is of ..the first (pality, the purpose will be better effected by that arrangement, because the expenses to which the settler will be exposed in making roads of communication^ will be very much diminished by having a narrov-i- front upon the highway. 42G3. What in your opinion will be the reserve of wood which would be neces- sary to be attached to each hundred acres of land ? — None whatever, because iu every township in Lower Canada there will always be sufficient poor land not susceptible of cultivation, which will furnish fuel herealleT to the^nhabitants of the townjriMp. Independently of that, the probabilities are, thatin a farm of fifty acres, ' thervVill be always ten or fifteen acres of land more profitably devoted to raising wood tiian to tmy other purpose, and this will be an ample reserve for the supply of fuel hereafter. 4264. Do yoQ'not think that it would be expedient in any district which may be hereafter settled, to reserve any inferior lands that are covered with wood, as Crown property, rather than disposing of them tc individual settlers, inasmuch as if the wood was in one block, the expense of fencing and keeping it in any necessary order would be so much the less, and it might nt some future period become a profitable article of sale in case of any diminution of the average quantity possessed by eacfi settler ? — Any blocks of land of inferior quality, unfit for present settlement, may with advantage be reserved to the C^own ; but I should by no means recommend a specific reservation, in the case of land being all of the same quality throughout a townsinp, for those purposes, because we know that if the land be of good quality in the midst of a settlement, the good timber will always be destroyed by the poorer settlers in the neighbourhood, or by squatters, who introduce themselves among them for the purpose of making potash, or converting it to other uses which they find most convenient. It is impossible for the Crown to reserve any quantity of wood in the neighbourhcdtl of a settlement. 4265. Is there any organized body in the several townships who might have the care of certain extensive forests, entrusted to them as a sort of common right r-^No, there is nuthing of that description in the provinces. 4206. Do you not thin"; that as a province increases in civilizatiipn, that sort of body will necessarily exisl. ? — The Crown w ill most probably have occasion to direct .•:^ ON E?.1»G RATION FRO\f THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 433 those officers or persons who haye charge of its territorial int^sts, to pay at- tention to timt particular subject ; but I do not at all expect that any local bodies will be orsanized for that purpose. 4:167. Is timber of good quality, on private locations, subject to the same depre- dations you describe? — It is a i""'* ^r of universal complaint in Lower Canada, that it is impossible to preserve good timber. 4268. For the purposes of fuel as entirely distinct from purposes of building, is the second growth of timber equal to the first ? — It is superior in every respect, the wood is more dense. 4269. Does that apply to each succession of growth, which may be obtained from the stumps of trees ? — The second growth consists of wood of much superior quality to that which preceded it. • 4270. Describe to the Committee what you mean by second growth ? — Whenever the aboriginal forest is destroyed, and the ground which it covered is preserved from the depredations of cattle, it is very soon furnished with an exuberant growth of wood of the same description with that whicii occupied its surface originally. This wood, from being more ex^sed to the influence of the sun and wind, grows with less luxuriance than the aboriginal forest, (always presuming that the surround- ing country is open to admit the influence of the air,) and the wood in consequence is more dense, and of superior quality for all purposes to that which preceded it. In the course of from iwenty to five and twenty years, the woods of deciduous trees acquire the dimensions of about from nine to ten inches in diameter; and when secured from the eiibcts of fire, increase with astonishing rapidity every year after that period. 4371. He good enough to explain to the Committee on what principle a reserved wood is cut in the private property of any individual ? — One-twentieth is the rule in the United States, where they supply themselves with fuel. 4272. You consider that if that principle were adhered to, a supply of wood would be secured for ever ? — Yes ; the reserve of twenty acres, inclosed and pro- tected from the depredations of cattle and from accidents from fire, will allow one acre to be cut each year for fuel, with a perfect assurance of reproducing sufficient at the expiration of twenty years upon each piece ' j cut for the supply of the family furnishing itself from the reserve. - 4273. Supposing a lot of fifty acres covered with trees in the first instance, what is the proportion of that lot which it might be desirable, with reference to the inte- rests of the settler, to reserve strictly as a timber-ground ? — I think ten acres will answer his purpose fully. ' 4274. (To Mr. Robinson. ) Would you be disposed to consider ten acres for wood as sufficient? — Not if they are to provide all their fire- wood and fencing from tho«e ten acres only. " .' 4275. (To Captain Marshall.) Would you be disposed to consider ten a^fps for Wood as sufficient?— In my opinion it should be twenty acres at least, t^'iupply fencing and fuel. fy. B. FtUim, Etq. t+ May, 1817. uj^ ,^ _ Alexander Buchanan, Esq. ; further Examined. * 427O. HAVE you had an opportunity of hearing the opinions which have been ijiven to the Committee, with respect to the extent of the allotment to each pauper emigrant family, and the extent of the reserve for wood ? — I have. 4277. What is your opinion upon those twd points? — As to the extent of the allotment, I do not think that fifty acres would be sufficient, I should recommend that it should be at least seventy-five acre^ <\t the very lov.est; and I should con- ceive that not less than twenty acres should be reserved for wood. An emigrant receiving the pecuniary assistance proposed censes to be a pauper, and if he was cohfined to fifty acres, he would not have it in his power to settle any of his family on sc siiiall a lot. -. A. Buchanan, Esq. \The Witness delivered in " Copy of Letter from the Witness to the Right honour- able Robert J. Wilmot Horton ; together with a Sketch of a Plan in aid of any System of Emigration, and a form of a Way-card, showing the expense of Transport of a Family from New York to Upper Canada," which were read; and are as follow :] ' , 550. 3I SIR tendency, for carrying into effect any extended system of not only free emigration, with advantage to the mother Country and Colonies, but pauper emigration, at the least possible expense to the country ; and the political advantage th?*. may be produced by such arrangements, as tending more to unite in a friendly bond of union the Colonies and parent State, must be so obvious, that any butPne is unnecessary. In the first place, presuming that extended facilities and scale of emigi'ation muy be resolved on, it will be indispensable that a Board of Emigration, consist- ing of a secretary and two commissioners, or such other officers as may be considered tieoessary, be immediately formed in London, under the control of the Cfolonial Dispart* ment, in which office, every thing connected with emigration, to whatever jpart ot thie world, shpuld be conducted and records of same kept, and where all necessary information of our colonies shall be obtained referring to emigration, and plans and diagrams of Crown lands townships and settlements recorded, and in fact, where every thing connected with the business shall centre. " I further propose that provincial agents, in different parts uf the United Kingdom, be appointed under the Colonial depar'.ment, and in connexion with the Board in London; for England, three agents I should consider necessary, say Loiidon, Liverpool, and Bri«tol; Ui ^"oiland, two, say Edinburgh and Greenock, or Glasgow; in Ireland, four provincial ag , viz. Dublin, Cork, Galway, find Londonderry ; and from which ports, public emi- gr. , generally to be conducted; but it should be the duty of the agents to give occa- siw . ut^.,>dance at any adjoining ports when necessary. The duties of those agents to he, to attend to the embarkation and seleciion of the emigrants, to keep up a connexion with the local country authorities, grand juries, magistrates, and parish officers ; to receive proposals and applications for free or public emigration, the some to be transmitted monthly \o the Boord in London; and to keep a register of all persons within their district that emigrate, and to furnish tickets or certificates to such applicaats as are approved of for emigration. " I also recommend that mthoiU delay (as, if it is expected that any good can be done next year, it will be absolutely necessary that arrangements should be foriliwith made) that teiponsibfe and proper persons be appointed in the colonies as agents, and who will act tinder the orders of the colonial officer, the respective Governors of' Coluiiiei, and head superintendents, and Central Board in London. 1 have heard it suggested, that Com- inittees c Boards should be formed in the Colonies, but to which 1 am decidedly opp.^ed, n!> it wou .. be very difficult to form such associations ^ree /'rom strong local prejmlices; and on which subject I perfectly agree with the opinion given last year by Colonel Cockburn, in his evidence already before the Committee; the persons erapioyed to condnct the neces- sary operation should act only under the control of the Colonial department and respective Governors. Andfor the greater facilities and due performance of the objects contemplated, the agents will be required at the following ports and places : at Quebec in particular, one with ussisti^t ; at Montreal, one; at Kingston, one assistant agent; at Miramichee, one agent, who will also be required to attend to the duties of Chaleur and Gaspee, at Halifax and St. John's, New Brunswick, Assistant Agents : the principal duties of tliese agents will be to keep register of arrivals of emigrants, plans of townships and Cruwu lands and new settlements, description of the soil, situation, and every information that can guide the emigrant on landing, in enabling him to make his election ; 10 rtetive and register applica- tions for labourers, mechanics and servants, lo receive money from persons in lAecolotdes wishinrbed immediately; and I should say ii| most cases, persons in want of servants in the colonies would willingly pay the amount of expense incurred in their passage out; and facilitating the emigration ofunmnii'ied women, would put a considerable check to many improvident marriages at home, the consequence of which IS a great increase of misery and population. ." Presuming, tlierefore, tiiat the machinery is formed at home and abroad, and that the quantity of land to be given each settler is decided on (on this point 1 would recom- mand lots to be laid out froui ico f o acres) I would nut recommend a location ticket, in ;he'first instance, for more th^.. ^^ acres, the larger ones to be reserved for a more respectable class of free settlers, whom it will be most advisable t^; encourage, as they willi tend much to tlie general prosperity of the new settlements; bc"-''lt:s, many persons will be wanted above tlie order oi labouring settlers, to fill various fiscal situations, and officers of. peace and militia. " I would certainly recommend some inducement, in the way of bones, in land of from IQ to 50 acres, to be held out as a stimulus to hasten the settler to in try and a liqui- dation of his obligation to the public ; besides, the settler, having the t je of a few acn s attached to his own lot, will strive to direct the attention of his relatioun to him, and who will thereby find a sort of nursery to receive them, and they will not require tiie assistance of Government for their location, and for which purpose tlitf reserved half of the lot would be applicable. " As to the transport of the emigrants, it will be necessary that about the first of January in each year application be made through the provincial agents at the different ports in the United Kingdom for a Return, as near as can be estimated, of the number of Ships, with tlie tonnage, that are intended to {to out the following Spring to Bri'ish America for timber; tliis Return to be received by the Board in London, and thc>y will then see the extent of shipping goi , ottt,and on which dependence can be placed, and whether or no it will be competetit to transport from each district the probable number of emigrants likely (o go, wiihout calling on shipping to go from port to port. This being done, and a pretty correct iiTea formed, from the Returns, of the probable extent of emigration for the season,Jfr«e as welt as ;;at although he has it not in his power personally to offer his assistance in the very useful contemplated work, yet he watches with anxious solicitude the progress of any measure that has for its object the improvement of our valuable Colonies, and the uniting them in an inseparable bond of union with the parent State. " If, Sir, this hasty sketch should be considered by you as throwiil^ any light on the sub- ject of Emigration, 1 shall be glad in the contribution. And ' ° I have the honour to be, Sir, Your most obedient Servant, " To the Right Hon. K. Wilmot Horton, J. C. Btukanan." &C.&C. &c. '' P. Q. The Cominittee are already in possession of my views as to such situations as I would direct emigration to, and no subsequent information induces roe to vary my opinion. ,/^Jfv*:' „■'- ■ ' ;: • ■. ' A.C.B." TEE ely be any tntm\ (at II find no a quantihf out, kc. ; ilr am h» toncMpI int now in ibey were nt in the he or tlitjri t to anror once (roni ling to the pufpoee mf o upplyinir the uniiea I, and that \ to,af them will ng, to give : retpectivo ltd be wi.in- ge and any at the usual hetettlerin enla, before n titling him ire All ittttii- ion, not to nditionii, he may go lb, thenuraber ement«, flCc. irly arrunge- traniported att espeme, ir periods of and carriage Department, lany mutter* { and I am will vanish a form of a per Canada ; ough he ha* plated work, hat for itt inseparable L on the sub- 'JN £MIOIlATION FJIOM THE UNITED KI)«GIX>M: 1897. 437 * SiMteb of a Plan in aid of any tytlem which may be adopted to tBoouragc Eni^tioo Aroa tht United Kingdom to His Majesty's Colonic* in North' America. " AoTVAL Seltlen in His Majesty'* North Ameriran Colonic*, de*irQn* of bringing out their friend* from the United Kingdom, to pay four dollars to any of the aKcnti in the provinces, to be forwarded to the agent of the port in the province at which the emigrant IS to arrive, through a bank or other public institution; which luui, so deposited, shall be paid over 10 the person for whom it was advanced, apon arrival at the port, as the means of aiding the party in proceeding to the place of destination. " The Certificate or King's Ticket (the form of which is sent herewith,) upon being Ibrwarded to His Majesty's ^retary of Slate for the Colonial Department (if approved) is intended to be sent to the person or persons designated therein, who, upon embarkation, shall hand it over to the master or owner of any vessel proceeding 10 the port designated in dte order, provided the Collector shall approve the vessel a* fully supplied with fuel, water, Jlc. for the number of persons who arc to proceed on the voyage, but in all cases leaving it optional with the emigrant to proceed with such vessel (if so approved by the Collector M well found) a* he may select. OaiBRVATION*. '' There have been above 75,000 *cttled in Upper Canada within the short spare of fifteen ? rears. It may be staled, that, one with another, they did not posses*, on their arrival there, lalf a dollar a head. " Those who advance one pound for bringing out a relation or neighbour, thereby prove their own industry and success ; while by such advance *by residents in the colonies the aidinp of persons intending to proceed to the United States will be so far guarded against, and ul the clamour about starving for want of employment in the colonies silenced. " The following Scale is otfered as ample to effect the removal of more persons than all the timber ship* that t le to the colonic* can accommodate. If no unmarried man under to ehould receive a ticket, the removal of a female would probably alto be effecled, and the' fixing of the emigrant would then be more ceruin. " The following sum* to be granted : ForAdulu £.i tJnder%4 years, . > . . • 3 Under 10 " . . - - . a Under 6 " - . - , . i o 10 10 10 o o o Ship* well found, if freed flom the unnecctsary restrictions re<]|uired, will insure 1 immodations ; it being only necessary to guard against want ot water, to provid( •oeommodations .■.iiaii>cd, on anital io this Province. . , . . ■ '■■<'i> : ^disnag tiq) 11 ](3aq 01(1 UQ .» RECEIVED from . % above namul, ,§ the lum of which I promise to |5 'g^ transmit to the Collector, or Emigration Agent, of the Port of k § to be placed to the credit of upon arrivul .•• k| there from ^ Dated day of 1^9 ■;v ■.» : Colonial Office, Downiiig-Slreet. 'day of iSa APPROVED, for PouHdi which you art to pay upon the embarkation of the above •To The CoUeclor of the Cuttunu Sterling, OMMiriKU ;ket. r. in the Province of of who thull be ready to in llic Monili of uHiige paid. Petitioner. in the ibject, and a resident cuiployinent for, and o( nbove named, which 1 promise to upon arrival ffice, Downitig-Slreet. Sltiliiig, ON EMKiRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSj;. 439 CANADA COMPANY OF LONDON. wjt-CAio roK •■Tftim rn tiiiii lANd. tnn N<« York lo Albany AllMnjr til Ruclitilrr Hachnltr la VoanfMown Cliildmi un4*r Imin jttn, h*U prio, InfuiM, gnib. Banu*, p*r hundnd •cl|lil, fraia Niw Tun lo Ctradk - . . . Si 00 3 DO I 00 Si 09 DklaiKn. Ntw York In Alhmy - Albooj lo Ullct • lllica tu RoclMiler RocktMcr to Niigari River lultl 160 nilti, b; Witf r. 109 bv Canal. 160 11° to b; Steambual. (og nilct. Tkt Bcltltri procecdiiia rnrward, ninilthed with one ' that* Tkkeli, ilpied by Iha Companji'i Ajmi, in cata of dlUkulty, majr apply to anj ol' the l«jllowln{ Agenu uf Traniporl, vli, U NEW VOAK, lo riiarletSiaylb, 81 Pcari-itntt. ALBANY, {JTICA, ROME, MANLIUS, SYRACU8K, WKKDMPOHT. Cliarirt Smyih, i'. I'. U. Uilleipia H Co. U. U. Hyd*. M. Iluyt & Co. John ItoMn It Co. F,. «t E. Weed. MONTEZUMA, S r. Knapp «i Co, GENEVA, I-Y0N8. PALMYRA, FAIR PORT, PITl'SFUHl), ROCIinSTCR, Pcrei Hjalinn, lower tc Cuok. J. Field & P.Urandin. Mr. Toinllniun. F. Bualinall & Co. ti'Culluiu & lluilbuit. AOIIIT. Man and Wife, i,f each a Cliildrcn I CliUd t CNl. Baggai^e • - - • • ■0 Oayi Prutiaioai, al 27 \ cdnli par day S"> 1 • 3 74 •< 4'4 p' S **• '- 4' 'i- 3- *l ■»>•*• or lay. Fin* PiniiuU iierMnf , fur a fuiiiily uf Mnn, lilt Wile, anil 3 Clilidren, froni Ktm Vurh lu I'viik U. I'aMda. 4278. {To Mr. Robinson. ) Supposing lots of seventy-five acres to be reserved, in what manner should each of the squares be located so as to effect that purpose ?— • 'J'lierc would be some di(licult\ found in allotting a settler seventy-five acres, as the land is laid out in blocks of two iiundred acres, unless there is some alteration made in future surveys. 4270. As a difference of opinion appears to exist u to the quantity of acres, ars you of opinion that it tnight be expedient to reserve in the Crown certain lots of wood, because, a civilization increased, it might be more to the interest of parties to purchase their wood at a reasonable rate from other reserves, precisely in the same manner as they would purchase coal from a conl mine, thereby obtaining the power of cultivating the whole area of their land, instead of making special reserves for the purpose of fuel and fencing ? — ^It would be well if such districts as were not fit for cultivation were reserved by the Crown, and a certain n'jmber of acres leased to the settlers, with the privilege of cutting a proportion of it each year. 1 wish to be distinctly understood that my reason for recoininending 50 acres for a family is entirely in consideration of the family being absolute paupers, and that in any township in Upper Canada where I have been, there is so great a proportion of lund unfit for cultivation, that it appears to me too profuse to give 100 acres, where it is good, to ont pauper family only. 4280. In how many years do you think a single pauper family can bring 50 acres into cultivation i — From the observations I iiuve had an opporlunity of making, iliey would not bring into cultivation more than 20 acres on an average at the end of seven years. 4281. Do you not consider that it would be much more desirable for the interest of the settlers as well as the colony, that 50 acres should be fully cultivated, than 100 partially ? — I know, from my own experience, that I should have a greater produce from 50 acres well cultivated than fVoiii 1 00 imperfectly, as is too much the case in Canada, and must be acknowledged by strange^ who have visited it. < Mr. Roiwell Mount ; Examined. ■ 4282. ARE you of opinion that if a reserve be made for wood in the manner v. c«>ntemplated, 50 acres tiur each pauper emigrant's family, having no other capital than that proposed to be advanced, would be amply sufficient for all purposes, supposinji! that the Crown reserved in each district wood enough to supply a certain proportion of the wants of that district whenever it may be necessary to cultivate 550. 3 I 4 , »•'« jt. BueioHM, Eiq. 14 Miy, 1897. Ill .1 ^ ' ' « 1^ H ■■t^ Al (^1 Mr. UostBfll Mount. Mr. HittwtU UouKt. N a* M»y, i«J7. |i: ^ % 44U MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEF. the whole of the area uf tliose ,^)0 acre* ?~Thp aueation wiik |iut to me the other day ; after I went away I considcreci it niaturi-ly iii the way in which it wai put to Hif. I have heard the evidence which hat been friven to-da^, but I liuvo not heard any thing which altered my opinion on the lubjcct; my opmion ii, that 100 acrci of land will be little enough for each euiigrunt family. In that country every farmer ought at least to retain uo acrci of wood land for timl>er and fuel ; this from 50 would leave 30 acres for cultivation, that is, for plough, meudow, and pasture land. In the part of the country where I live a man is not considered much of a farmer who does not rniite from 15 to 30 acres of witeat in a year, and spring grain in pro- portion, say 10 acres, and many exceed that quantity. Thus we see that in a few years each settler would cultivate all his land every year ; that he would be left without fallow ground, meadow or pasture. In the spring of 1836, I was called upon by a numl)er of the emigrants in the township of London, which settlement commenced, I think, in 1818, to survey their lands, from which circumstance I had a good opportunity of knowing the extent of their iniprovements, and, generally speaking, they exceeded 35 acres, and some exceeded ,';o. 1 am con- vinced that these settlers did not commence under better circumstances than other emigrants would with the proposed loan of 60/. R. a. rigkt, Ciq. 96 May, 1837. Sabbali, 26* die Mail, 1827. Thk Kioiit HoNotuABi,!, R. J. WILMOT HORTON, IN TlIK CHAIH. '1 Robert Slearne Tighe, Esq. called in ; and Examined. 4383. YOU have resided at Mitchels Town, in the county of Westmeath?-^ , I have. 4384. You have property in the neighbourhood of Mitchels Town? — I have. 438.5. What is the general number of the population in that district? — I think the number, by the last return in the two parishes with which I am immediately con- nected, and which are both under the same rector, amount to between five and six thousand individuals. 4386. What is the amounnt of the acreage of those parishes ? —The acreage under the Grand Jury assessment amounts to above 9,000 acres ; but the number of acres is greater, for under the late Tithe Composition hey compounded for nearly ia,oou. 4387. What are the general circumstances of the lower class of poor in those parishes ? — Their general circumstances are at this moment, and have been for some years, very bad. In the year i83U I had a Ibt made out, under the inspection of the Protestant and Roman Catholic clergymen, and two farmers of the neighbour- hood, and the return was upwards of soo persons, having families, to the amount of nearly 1 ,400 individuals, who had not beerf able to earn three months provisions during the preceding year, and they were then out of work ; that list, with the name of every family, is to be found among the papera laid before the Relief Com- mittee in London. I believe the labouring population of those parishes to be at this moment in the same state. 4288. When you speak of those 3oo families, does each family rent a certain small quantity of land ? — Each family that derives immediately under the proprietor certainly does rent a comfortable garden, at the least ; but in the list tliat I men- tioned were included some persons who rented as far as three, four, five, and six acres, and several who had no ground, merely a house or hovel. 4289. Of those 200 families how many occupied land not more than to the extent of one or two roods ? — That I cannot at this moknent tell, for they were not all upon my own estate ; but 1 have in my pocket a list of persons now applying for assist- ance to emigrate, to whose circumstances I can speak clearly. 4290. You stated, that they had not the means of labouring more than three months in the year ; you did not state whetlier they had land of their own, from the cultivation of which tlie^might, more or less, derive subsistence ? — The most of them were able to derive subsistence from their potatoe crops, but they were ifll in . the habit and under the necessity of working, more or less, when employment was tb be had. The great distress occurs in the summer months, before the potatoe crops come in, and when they must go to market with their money to purchase oatmeal, and if they have not work they cannot procure subsistence; and that state , 01 QUtress is at this moment apparently inevitable to a great extent. 4291. With ^* ^ ON RMIORATION FROM TIIK UNITED KINGDOM: iitj. 441 ' 4'J9i. With re«|i«ct to your own immrct to the cxintr-nre of the iiulividunjii theniMlvi'*. I have uitli uie tiie rental ot my eiitiitc in Wc!>trneiitli, cdiHittin); uf about ,3,000 Rngli»li ultcs. When I cumt! into the po(M-!i!tion oi thut otnto, and hnd the lettiuft of it in I78ii there were 6a tenants on the t-statc; they have tichled aincc that |)eriud, not hy mv hiinging |)cr8onit in, but by the tcnnntit having; at ctly under me ; circumstances at the time did not require the turning them out, though I was vteit aware the estate would have been much better managed !.dd it t>ceti less siihdivideil ; where there was no objection to character, I granted ieaset for the holdings of which I found them in possession, and they are now in possesition of 187 holdings, in the iiunds of about 1 8u tenants ; but independently of that there are still a great nufnber of persons resident upon the estate as labourers, who arc not included in the ren'ul, who exist in houses appropriated to labourers, and their rant paid for by their work, when work can be had ; and the list which I have ir) my hand, of applications for assistance for Kmigration, conies almost entirely from that class ; so that in point of fact the estate would not bo benefited to any degree as far as pecuniary benefit goes, by granting emigration to that class ; if I could 1 t.i.t forty or filty out of the rental, who would give up their farms, and go to Am, 'iiu or elsewhere, where they might be more comfortable, I should have a direct pecu- niary benefit from it, because I then might throw those farms into other farms, and have an improved system of cultivation ; but 1 bclicv? it will be found in many other instances ns well as mine, that the persons who . c desirous of leaving ure not persons who hold land whicli they can cultivate, but persons who iuld merely a garden, aiul depend entirely upon their labour. Here is a list of twelve families now seeking to emigrate, they occupy no more ground tlm>) eleven or ..welve acres ; one or two of them have been removed from more e..,>cn»ivc li -' tings to s' n\e houses; the rent that they ought to pay mo amounts to about 37/. or 38' per annum. .?.. 4'i93. What rent do they actually pay you ?- I believe, with two or thrt • mling 'exceptions, none. If they emigrate, they go in my debt 204/. ; th" largest arrear in that list, amounting to 80/., had been contracted upon a larger h'.. .'ing, the man was incapable of continuing so large a holding, and removed to n in; vior one. 4393. The remaining tenants are in arrear for their actual holdings ?— Yes, arising a good deal out of their particular cases ; many of them have never been asked for their rent ; they were habitually in my work, and I having been unable to continue to give them work, have not desired them to be pressed tor their rents; tbey do not leave from any dithculty they have with regard to tlieir holdings, but from a difficulty in obtaining employment for their subsistence. ., 4394. As long as you employed those people they paivery little expectation of timely.relief. I have made four different applications to Government, to procure aid to send persons abroad, two of them were eight or nine years ago, combined with an offer to contribute to a certain extent to the expense ; the answer was, that measures were in contemplation, but that nothing had been devised. I have twice ap- plied to the Castle since the yi-ar 1823, "vhen the Evidence on the employment of the poor of Ireland was published. I know that considerable inconvenience resulted from that state of uncertainty ; that would be removed if it was once knowji that in the space of a year, or whatever convenient time' Government might fix for it, a certain number would be selected out of each county. 4302. It would appear from your last answer, that you are not aware that the Emigrations of 1823 and 1825 tvere essentially experiments, and that if the 2,000 persons collected in the neighbourhood of Cork had been to be collected in rateable proportions from different counties in Ireland, the expense would have been doubled ; those particular Emigrations, though they might have the effect of unfairly benefit- ing particular districts and particular emigrants (as they were not callea upon to rejjay) are to be considered merely on the principle of experiment ? — I am perfectly aware of that, but I mention the subject with this view, that I think it would be desirable to take the earliest opportunity of impressing upon the people that the experiment having been now made, the advantages will be diffused. "^ 4303. You appear not to consider that the Government have in no degree what- ever made up its view upon the subject ; you will recollect that this is a Committed of Inquiry, and on its report being made, that it will be for the Government to consider of the measure ; supposing the Government should even decide on any measure of Emigration, the suggestions you have been so good as to give to the Committee must be considered highly important? — I have no hesitation in ex- pressing my conviction that Government will adopt the plan in some form or other ; I have attended closely to the subject, and have had every thing ivhich could inform on the matter so much and so long before me, that I must think the necessity of it, so far as Ireland is concerned, so evident as to admit of no reasonable doubt that a system of Emigration more or less extensive must be adopted and pursued, till the evil can be lessened or removed by other means. 5304. From your general knowledge of Ireland, are you of opinion that there is a growing disposition on the part of the proprietors to improve their property by the ejectment, wherever an opportunity presents Itself to them, of their lower class of tenantry ? — There can be no doubt of it; but at the same time I think that there is so growing a disposition, that if there is not some means devised to assist them in that measure, and at the same time to save the unfortunate wretches themselves from some of the effects of it, it would be the bounden duty of the Legislature to impose some check to it ; I have no hesitation in saying, that there appears, in the evidence before the Committees on the State of Ireland, instances of ejectments, and effects arising from ejectments, which if carried to a general extent (but I believe it could not be, because I believe that the feelings of the gentlemen of Ireland generally would oppose it) I think it would be the bounden duty of the Legislature to interfere and prevent it. . 4305. Are you aware that it has already gone to a great extent ? — I would refer to Mr. Leslie Foster's evidence before the Lords und Commons, describing the effect of it ; and Lord Carberry's evidence, giving an account of the ejectment from his own estate; and Mr. Serjeant, Blackburne's, giving an account of the ejectments of tenantry from an estate in the county of Limerick ; it is impossible to read them without being struck with the dreadful state in' which the landed proprietors are placed, with the miserable consequences which may fall on the wretched tenantry, and with the claims which this tenantry have, from conduct and other circumstances, on the humanity of Government and the Legislature. — , . ; . .... -. 4306. Supjtosing %i' ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 445 * 4306. Supposing that this system of improving property by the removal of extra tenantry ift carried on on an extended scale, and no resources are afforded for Emigration, are you, or not, of opinion that the necessary consequence will be, that all those ejected persons who can find their way into England will come here ? — I have no doubt that that, or a system of pillage in Ireland, or extinction by famine and disease, must be the consequence ; from one or other of these conse- quences there is no escaping, unless the people are sent to the colonies or furnished withi employment at home ; every day the labourers of Ireland, male and female, are flocking to England in search of employment. 4307. Do you concei\^ that that practice is increasing? — I have no doubt of it ; I never saw a tenant of mine nor heard of a tenant of mine in London, in former times, and I have passed a great deal of time in London, and my tenants have always had a disposition to find me out ; but there are at this moment six or seven, to my knowledge, working or seeking work in London. 4308. You have referred the Committee to the evidence of certain gentlemen, who were examined before the Committee on the State of Ireland ; within your own knowledge at this moment, is the system of clearing property in action through* out Ireland? — I have been absent from Ireland for some years, and cannot speak with accuracy to that point ; but I have no doubt that the principle is in action, though checked in many instances by humane feeling in the proprietors, and too often by those fears the existence and extent of which mark the state of the country. I have not ejected tenants myself, but I have been reduced to very great distress, from the state of their arrears ; and J. have had occasion lately to sell a property in which there was an accumulation of six or seven hundred individuals, who are all liable to be ejected, and can hardly avoid being ejected. A landed proprietor, if his income is very great or resulting in part from other resources, may bear the pressure of a portion of his property being devoted to these smaller tenants, but no person possessed only of an estate, such as I now hold the rental of in my hand, and like many others I could name, can expect any thing but to suffer an immense loss himself, or to expose the tenantry to the greatest possible misery, by his efforts to do himself justice. The Tenantry Act which was passed last year threw great facilities in the way of the landlord, but it came many years too late; if a gentlema.i or any landholder now gets his land fairly into his hands, I think that he will take care to prevent a recurrence of the evil ; but the evil has been done during the continuance of long and unrestricted leases ; on one estate of mine, con- sisting of 1100 acres, there were not above half a dozen individuals living on the lands when they were let, when they fell into my hands at the expiration of fifty or sixty years, tliere were six or seven hundred ; the only thing I could do, under the circumstances of the country, was to let to each his holding, with restrictions against further under-letting. 4309. Are you of opinion that such is the conviction of the majority of landed proprietors in Ireland of the danger and inconvenience of the present system, that they will come forward to concur in any practical measure for effecting a material improvement by means of Emigration ? — I have no hesitation in stating that they will be disposed most tlmnkfully to give their assistance ; they will of course form their opinion upon the partici:lar sacrifice they may be called upon to make, that will be a subject of consideration ; I think that to the extent of 3/. 10 s. per annum, chargeable for seven years upon the estates that were liberated from a dis- tressed family, of a man, a woman and three children, there would be no difficulty in procuring the concurrence of the proprietors, if they felt that the emigrants were of that class and description which it would be advantageous to remove. #4310. Do you think they would go so far as to defray the passage of those emigrants?-! think they would; but instead of paying the expense themselves, I would rather enable Government to have the superintendence of it; I would wish to have the hand and mind of Government in every part of the plan. Em|. 9S May, il«7. ^ »« ti t rAof«a» 5pri«^ /?Jce, Esq. a Member of the Committee ; Examined. -, . i^'4311. DOES it come within your knowledge, that a system of remodelling and clearing of properties is going on to any extent in Ireland ?— In the parts of Ireland with which I am best acquainted, namely, the county of Limerick, the county of Kerry, and parts of the county of Clare and the county of Cork, I consider the necessity of acting upon such a system to be universally admitted, and the system 550. . 3 K 3 ta T. S. Rkt, •«;■ 446 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITfEE r. S. Ritt, Eiq. 36 May, < 1897. .1 I':! n, to be in progress or carried into effect in every case in which it is possible for the proprietor to attain such object. 4312. Does the Sub-tenantry Act give increased facilities to the landlords for that purpose ?— The effect of that Act is rather to prevent the recurrence of the evil than to afford means of remedying the evil where it has already arisen ; and the Committee will peiPceive, that where an excess of population has been created upon any given spot, without faciUties being afforded for the removal of fhat population all the benefits which the Legblature contemplated in passing that Act are suspended. 4313. That Act gives new facilities for enforcing exis^ng contracts? — That Act undoubtedly affords facilities for enforcing existing contacts, but, as the enforcing of such contracts implies a dislodgment of a great mass of the population, in the present state of. Ireland there is a considerable difficulty in many cases in effecting that object, though the inclination to do so, and the conviction of its necessity on every ground, public and private, is universal throughout the country. 4314. It is amoral difficulty, and therefore not a difficulty in the law?— It is a moral and a pol'^.-tl difficulty, it is not one arising out of the law. 4315. Do ycu know instances in which, in spite of those difficulties, such a prin<' dple had been t.ctcd p.pon ? — Unquestionably, and those proprietors who in the first instance perceived *' .e necessity of acting upon the principle, were enabled to act upon it withoul much inconvenience, for so long as there was but one person or a few persons who wished to consolidate many small farms into one, and to reduce the number of the ^surplus population upon their estates, adjacent estates, which were not directed by the same principles, afforded to the population quitting their former residences a facility of settlement ; but now, when almost all the proprietors are disposed to act upon the same principle, and even if they have not the means of removing the excess of population from their own property, of taking the best care to prevent the settling of strangers among them, there is scarcely any means by which a poor man, who loses his former habitation and farm, can acquire a settlement elsewhere. 4316. Are you aware of the existence in Ireland of any considerable vagrant population arising from the operation of this system ? — There is a considerable population of unsettled habits and characters. The effect of dislodging a certain number of persons from a farm in Ireland is, generally speaking, as tbllows :-^- The cottager dislodged, endeavouri;, if he can, to reinstatt himself on the adjacent estate in the same position in which he stood on the estate he quitted ; ihat in ths present circumstances of Ireland is difficult ; the next effort that he makes is to settle himself in some village or town, as the terms of his quitting his original laud- lord are generally the sacrifice of a certain portion of rent already due, or the yield- ing up to the tenant the cattle and other stock upon which the landlord might have a' lien, tlie tenant is enabled to turn those effects into money, and with this money he settles in a village or a town ; as long as that money lasts, which may perhaps be a year or two, he is enabled to get on upon the casual employment which he can procure in the neighbourhood of the town, but tlie moment that money is exhausted the distress in the towns increases precisely in' the, same proportion as the distress in the country is diminished. And I believe that the Committee, if they had the means of looking into the establishments which have been lately set on foot in the towns in Ireland for the prevention of mendicity, would find that the claims upon the towns are become very far greater, and the pressure of distress in those towns has become more dense. It m&y not be without interest to the Committee to le^rn, that, in very many of those cases in which tenants are dispossessed in Ireland, and in which they settle in towns, the small capital which tliey have carried away from, their agricultural employment, and which perishes in their hands in the process which I have endeavoured to describe, would afford a very considerable fund indeed towards the payment of their expenses, if a regulated system of Emigration could he carried into effect. 4317. Does this transfer of the population from the agricultural districts to the towns, produce any considerable distress or inconvenience in those towns ? — Un- questionably ; it in the first instance lowers the rate q. aO May, 1837. H'wi •t 448 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE m 1'\ S. Rim, an May, ^S97. ' i \/( derived from the fundamental principle, never to be departed from, namely, the co- operation of the landlord himself in pecuniary contribution; whatever sum he gives, to thp.t amount is he bounf' o the State to prevent a recurrence of the evil ji future, and by the very pecuniary sacrifice which he makes, we obtain a pledge .,.f his sense of the evil from whiclj he wishes to disen);age himself, and thereby of the disposition which he feels to prevent the recurrence of it. 4323. Yf!.' thi. that the law, as it now stands, gives him the means of providing against the ricurr(..i<;e of that, that where the vacuum now occurs, the means arc afforded to the lauUord of preventing that vacuum being filled up ? — I have no doubt of it ; in a property with which I am acquainted, in one county, consisting of between six and stvrn thousand En|;lish acres, on which I think the population is nearly 4,000, I have no hesitation in saying that if a certain proportion of that population were removed, by the ordinary management of the estate for the interests of the parties concerned, there would be no real diflicuhy ii> jin vx;>tifii^f a recurrence of ll;*: evil. I by 'lo vneans confine the observations I ha e ii.ivde w ilii regard to the general feeling and interest, as against the existence 0^ an t^xcess al popuhuion to the landlords u id inheritors of the soil, thefarmojs tL-iMelves ure bt.or.'ing just as sen'ible of 'he difficulty and the mischief as the Ian(1u,ic;8. It is a r ii; v on phrase anr iigst them, "We now dierover t:>iit dairy ':rvsur« ;r. re (vrfitalxc U' i cottager tenants." The feeling, 'n short, is miversal, ii'.\ii i\u'(x^ k 1 Uispo.'* t'tu. io act upon that princii>le, except whc re ohecketl by moral md political causes. , 4324. Do you coiu:^ Ive there is m.y check to the exteiL,ion of this system of re- modelling estates, from the want of a r.unber of funiicrs of greater capital to replace the poorer tenantry who :a'e displaccii ? — I do not think tUere is; I had occasion last year to consider this subject practically, and I found that, witiinu; exte; d- ing my views beyond the population of the jiirlicnla.- farm to which I i'lcn turned my atifntioii. there was urviongst the occupying tenants of that farm » suflicient number from which to make a selection, equal ir point of charf f uitd capital, t'.. undertake 'he manajiement of the land ir^jon *.!i3 new |.^rii)ciplc' . indeed in one mse whpre it was proposed to consolidate sceral farn>s iiito one, and the pre- iGi prior; of this new farm at a moderate rent was uflered to one of the occupying tenani.s wtio api»eaicu in great misery, he made a tender of a deposit of seven years reit*. ;>f 'he nev» farm as a security and as a proof of his solvency. 4 i";i Will you inform the Committee the pavliculars of this experiment? — The case ttiat I allude to refers to property in a county in Munster ; it is the estate of an individual now fijling a situation abroad ; in his absence, the management of this property was left to a friend ; the individual \. !io was entrusted with the duty of managing the estate found that a lease had expired, which had been let about sixty years ago to one tenant ; at the time of the expiration of the lease, which was in the year 1826, it was occupied 'by eighteen families ; upon full consideration, assuming that the principle upon which the new leaves of the farm were to bei made, was to retain the greatest number of persons u horn upon any principles of justice to the landlord it was expedient to continue, it was found that six families were the utmost extent of tenantry which coidd be continued upon the estate ; thns twelve families, consisting in round numbers of thirty-six persons, were to be removed ; that farm consisted partly of mountain and partly of alluvial and more fertile land ; the proposition that was made to the twelve families to be removed, was, to allow them the possession of their land free *f all rent for one year, after which time they were expected tctgiye up the possession, and seek for a settlement elsewhere, or, as the altcmat've, that they should have farms of five or six acres of mountain land hitherto uncultivated, with a command of lime manure, at the nominal rent of 4*. or 5«. a year, for twenty-one years; most of the individuals embraced the alternative of the occupation of their lands for one year free of rent, and it may be anticipated that at the end of that period they will remove, and give up possession of the land to other occupying tenants. Calculating the whole amount of pecrmiary sacrifice which is involved in this transaction, I have no doubt that it would have been more for the interest of the proprietor, had there been a well-organized system of Emigration established, to have subscribed as a land-, lord for the removal of those twelve families, than it would have been for him to have made the pecuniary sacrifice to which I advert, namely, a year's rent of tlic farms occupied by those persons; and it will be further observed, that upon a com- parison of the two methods of attaining the same object, assuming the pecuniary sacrifice to be the same, in the one instance the evil is radically removed, whereas in the other the dispossessed tenants from this property are oidy driven back upon ^ . > tb«5 ;i l I TBE , the co- r sum be )f the evil I a pledge thereby of providing means are have no nslHting of julation \» >n of that le interests recurrence »ard to the poptili'.tion bt.oj.'ing a f ii; \ on ita'.xe K y ; pO.H'i'tU' 10 JSL'i). , item of re- to replace d orca-'ion u> exlC! d- bcn turned lu suiiicient lid capital, ieed ill «ne J the pre- I occupying seven yeara lent ? — The ie estate of igement of th the duly let about I which was isideration, nere to be rinciples of )ix families the estate; were to be 1 and more e removed, year, after . settlemjent six acres of lire, at the individuals ear free of emove, and the whole ve no doubt there been as a land-. for him to rent of tl)c ipon a com- e pecuniary ed, wtieroas 1 back upon the ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 449 the estate of some one else, where they pr'vluce the same mischiefs, or else they are driven in search of labour to Encland, which is a further consequence of the present system carrying on in Ireland. 43-j6. You conceive the natural consequence of the working of the present system will be the sending a )»rge number of paupers to England each year, in search of employment ? — I have no doubt of it ; for if there be no other remedy, the landed proprietors of Ireland will be very hcppy, for their own sakes and for the sake of their tenants, if they cannot afford them the means of going to America, and if there is no adequate system of transmission to the colonies provided, to afford them a similar relief connected with transport to England ; this has been already done in the city of Cork, where subscriptions have been actually made for the transport of the distressed poor in that city to England, and the facdities of transport are so great, that the very moment persons understand what a relief they can obtain for themselves, though it may be at the expense of the people of England, I have no doubt it will be very extensively acted upon. 4327. Do you conceive that the emigration from Ireland to England has annually increased of late? — I believe it to have increased infinitely, and to have as.4umed a totally different character from the former emigration from Ireland to 'England ; the Committee can easily form an estimate of this increase, by consider- ing the enormous increase of the number of steam-boats navigating between the two parts of the empire, and the diminution of the price of conveyance across the Channel; the thret, great channels through which this great current of population ilows are, northerly, to Scotland, from Dublin to Liverpool, as the midland station, and from Waterford to Milford, and from Holyhead to Dublin in a lesser propor- tion, because on those stations there are only Government packets, and by the southern passage from Cork to Bristol, to a very great extent ; probably a rf;ference to the accounts of the packet companies would' enable the Committee vo iiscertain the exact number. Not only have the numbers increased, but I consider the character of the Emigration to have changed also; in the former yeaiv), the Irish labourers who came over to England, came over for the harvest, and returned again, because they were in those former times possessors of small farms in that country, but the new Emigration, namely, the emigration of persons who have lost their farms, has a tendency to produce a settlement of the poor Irish in England ; they come over, not for the purpose of earning their money in harvest, and ••"turn- ing again to Ireland, though some and many of them still come in that ch.tracter, but there is another class of emigrants wlio come over, if possible, to fix here and remain ; of that class, it is true that there is a forced return produced under the opera- tion of the Poor Laws. I should wish to add the taking into account the difference of wages paid for labour in the two parts of the Uni^^d Empire, and the extraor- dinary facilities and cheapness with which the population of Ireland can now be transported or can transport themselves into Great Britain ; unless there is some facility afforded for the emigration of the Irish poor to the colonies, there will be an increasing number of Irish poor annually claiming a settlement in this country, and the tendency of the entire system will be to lower the rate of wages in Englaad to the level of those in Ireland, or to a middle point between both, and thus to degrade the haUts and condition of the people of England in that precise propor- tion. Adverting to this consideration, I should conceive any effort made to encourage eimgration from this country,* especially in theinutnufacturing districts, to be less efficacious for the purposes for which it is intended, than assisting in the emigration of the poor from Ireland, the latter plan having a tendency to raise the rate of wages in Ireland, and to diminish thereby the inducement to settlement in England, and while it assists in the improvement of the condition of Ireland, to prevent the degradation of the working classes in England, to which I have adverted. 4538. Is there a great quantity of property in Ireland which is annually coming within the power of the landlords to remodel r — Unquestionably there is ; the old system of managing Irish estates was by granting leases for three lives, those leases' are falling in daily, and the case which I have already adverted to is an example of one of those, namely, a lease made about sixty years ago, on which a great popu- lation had accummulated, and which fell in in the year 1826. I know a curious example of it on a property in the county of Kerry, with which I am acquainted, a small farift which had been let about the year 1 760, almost as a gift, to an old ser* vant, consisted of six acres of good land ; when it fell out of lease three or four years ago, the population on tiiose six acres amounted to 36 persons ; that farm is now in the possession of one individual, who has built an excellent farm-house upon it, and ry^O. 3 L lives r. S. Riet, E«|. «6 May, i8t7. ■ 1 > H T.8.1Uec, tA Mmj, 450 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE lives respectably and comfortably ; what has become of the 36 persons who were all removed, I know not. These examples of the termination of leases aio general throughout the country. 4320. What do you understand to be the feeling of the people themselves upon this subject ? — Universally that of the deepest anxiety to obtain some means or other of transferring themselves to the colonies. I have already stated, that on the part of the people themselves, in many instances, there appeared both the disposition and the means-to contribute to that purpose, and for a sum wholly inadequate to their settlement in Ireland with a view to their eventual comfort, would form a considerable aid towards the expenses of emigration. I am enabled to state that such a disposition exists throughout the counties to which my evidence applies ; I have knowledge of the fact, both on the part of the argriculturists, and in the towns on the part of the manufacturers, from both classes I have received various applications; and on the part of one of the most intelligent of them I had an inquiry put to me, whether Mr. Robinson's ships were likely to visit Ireland again for the purposes of emigration ; I replied by inquirinf^ whether, in the event of such a new assistance towards emigration taking place, there would be any disposition on the part of the people to avail themselves of it; the answer was, " Give tu but the means, and ka(f the country will go." I have also presented a petition from some of the cotton and linen weavers of the city of Limerick, who had partaken of the general distress which was prevailing amongst the manufacturing interests up to a late period ; the application that they made was for a sum of 300 A, which they state would be amply sufficient to transport 27 families, that with that assistance they could place themselves with perfect comfort in Canada ; they did not speak without experience, as many of their relations and friends had already gone, and the letters they had received from all of them were such as to encourage them to emigrate. 4330. Do you think they would prefer emigrating to the colonies to emigrating into England ? — I believe they would, for, the accounts they have received from their friends have shown them that they can acquire eventually independence and comfort in the colonies with much greater certainty than they can expect in England ; England they look to only as a resource in default of means of transporting them- selves to the colonies ; their habits are more suited to the colonies, and less suited in all respects to England, besides which, the power which exists in England, and which is sometimes employed, under circumstances of severity and of pressure, of removal through the means of the Poor Laws, makes them indisposed to look to England, except under a severe pressure of distress in Ireland, yo great and so urgent as to make any asylum from Ireland an alternative which they are ready to embrace. 433 1 . Do not the cottiers generally hold under written contracts, which have a long time yet to run ? — A life, and twenty-one years, is the common tenancy now. 4332. Would a large proportion of those cottiem in your opinion, be willing to forego their existing contracts with their landlords, if the prospect of emigration o%fair terms were held out to them ? — I have no doubt that they would. 4333. What would be the eJOfect of making the landlord by law responsible for all the taxes, public or local, now chargeable on cottiers within the limits of hit estate? — I conceive that would indispose the landlord towards the establishment of a cottier population on his propejfty, and, as far as it 'did 1 0, it would be productive of good. 4334. Do you not conceive it would be a useful system in Ireland, that the cotiierB should come into contact with the Government in the shape of taxation as little at possible, and that the landlord should be made responsible ?— Undoubtedly ; 'Some progress has already been made in the adoption of that principle ; the commutation fat bthe throws the burthen of tithes on the landlord, and a proposition is now pending for making church rates a burthen also on the landlord ; if this principle were carried further, particulariy in regard to grand jury assessments, I have no doubt it would act most beneficially on the interests of the poor, as well as tend greatly to pro^note the tranquillity of the country, by producing economy on the part of' the landbrds themselves, who are the agents and the trustees in the expenditure of this public fund, and exercise an uncontrolled dominion over its amount and ap-> propriation. in dt I ' SB ON EMIGRATION FROM TH£ UNITED KINGDOM: 1^27. 451 were All general vn upon or other the part sposition equate to uld form to state I applies ; id in the various n inquiry in for the of such isposition ive ut but ition from irtaken of terests up rhkh they assistance not speak gone, and them to emigrating Bived from dence and England ; ting thero- less suited {land, and pressure, of to look to «at and so are ready which have lancynow. e willing to emigration ponsible for imito of hit [ylishment of i productive t the cottiers I as little a* wdly ; «ome mutation for low pending inciple were ive no doubt id greatly to B part o^ th« liture of this nt and ap-> ) Sir Henry Pamelt, Bart., a Member of the Committee ; Examined. 4335. HAVING heard Mr. Rice's evidence, do you in the main agreo witli it, or in what points '; 0<> yu conceive timt there is any mode bv which this leiidoncy of the ennigration of tiic Irish people to produce a fall in the wagri in England can he prevented, exce|>t Emigration (\ >m Ireland, or a nonintercourse Act between the two countries? — On looking nt (juestion merely with reference to the existing numbers and the existing state ot itiingn, it would appear that there was no other alternative ; but, looking forward to new measures of legislation, with a view to correct the evil, I should say that a great deal would certainly be done by a better system of government in Ireland ; since the connexion with England, the govern* ment of that country has never been conducted on any principle of common sense or common justice. 4353. Do yo»i conceive that any change in that system, however great and rapid, would remove the inducement for the Irish labourer to emigrate into England ? — My opinion is that the improvement of Ireland wrmld he very rapid, if it was placed under a sound system of government, and that, in proportion as this improvement proceeded, the |)eople of Ireland would find employment, and stay at home. It is for this reason, that if England means to protect it from the evil which would follow from a great reduction in the wages of the labouring class, she must change her system us to Ireland. Tlie great desideratum of all, namely, capital, would increase in Irelond both by accuinuliition and by the transfer of it from England, in a very great degree, by establishing security of property ; and I feel quite certain that the minds and temper of the people would improve so much, if their political condition was altered, as to produce a great chani^c in their general hul)its, and remove much of the causes of the present evils. Frederick Carlisle, Esq. again called in ; and further Examined. 43.';3> HAVE you any thing to offer to the Committee? — I hove a communica- Frederick CarUUe tion, arising from the abolition of the Passengers Act, which I should wish to give in proposing more favourable terms for the carrying out of passengers in consequence.' \The same was delivered in and read as follows i] " In my communication to the Committee of the i2ih April, I fave an Estimate of the expense of transporting emigrant labourers to the Cape of Good Hope, in parties of 300 inaividuals; each party to consist of 100 men, 50 women, and 150 children. 1 considered that such a number of persons could not (in accordance with provisions of the " Passengers Act") be conveyed in a vessel of smaller burden than 450 tons register, and consequently stated the expense of their passage at 3,000/.; but as that Act has been annulled, the same number mav be conveyed in a vessel of 400 tons, which I think would afford ample accommodation for the purpose; and this, together with some alteration in the mode of provision, will enable me to reduce the Estimate from 3,000/. to 3,700/. ; being a dif- ference of 300/., or 1 /. per head. " If this Estimate should appear areater than others which may have been submitted to the Committee, it must be recollected the number of adult males here proposed to be sent, is double that which has been generally contemplated by the Committee, being two men to one woman and three children ; therefore the expense of a family consisting uf one man, one woman, and three children, will be in reality only 39/. "In stating the proportion of women and children, I am obliged in some degree to con- iarm to the wishes of the Settlers, for on their behalf am I here, in order to procure, if possible, an accession o( available labour, and not as the advocate of any general system of emisration ; on which subject I would just say in passing, that the Cape is not in my opinion one of the most desirable places in the world for the c •'»)i'.i-j(ion of such an emi> gration, I mean one which would eo to introduce into the colony a f j.ulation of Pauper Landholden, if I may so speak. The country never can admi' ^f »-> ''',»« a population as more fertile and better watered soils ; and at present, the only '.'i^'c'e i consider to be fit for emigrants, are capitalists and their dependents as hired labei>f*'r», by which means they can supply distant markets with a great variety of produce, on Lornis abundantly profitable to themselves ; whilst the Bauper landlord on the other hand, having no market near at hand, nnd being unable to command those at a distance, is obliged himself to consume hh product, destitute of means to procure a rag to cover him. " As the Committee are about to bring their proceedings to a close, I should wish to make a few observations 00 what I conceive to be the necessity for some assistance to faci itate the supply of labour to the British Settlers at the Cape. I wish particularly to 550. 3 L 3 impres* Es(]. 454 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE i'rt4truk Cmrlult, K*|. ■0 Mty, il«7. I impmt apM the aiadt of the CommliiM my Arm coo«io(ion, thai imiUm *omm mMiii m* ado|i(rtl to effect thi« oijerl, all ihoce Metllrra who look oat cnpiial from England, and by mcani of which th«y liu«c been enabled to wiihtiand the dnaaten ariMnc oat of the fallura i)f leveroJ luccewivc crop*, will b« culirely ruwed. 1 lajr wM be, liacaiue they have hitherto Mpfwrtcd iheintelves, nut lo much rriiini the produce of lli« toil, a* from their private retourcru, which of lourte roDil hafe an rod. At lh« tame lime, putting aiide the qiieition of inbour, the protpcctt of the Settler* may be said lo ha»« receifed p dawn ol lun-ihinc. Many of the diflivultim incident to the formation of t liligut which hrnt lu Ions annoyrti them. Inueeil I learnt from the la*t accur t ' luir* that teveral imlivi(lual« had reaped excellent cropt of wheat and other kinds o in. liui whul will all tliit avail in tlie present slate of things P if corn is grown, the e | < use of cultivation is so great, that the grower cannot sell with a profit. What will be the consequence f he will merely srow sufncient for the coniumpiion of hii fuinily; and to piiy for ne labour required in the production of lhi» (having no other means of procuring mon y,) he will b« eoinpelled lo sell part of his stock. It is clear, then, that unless tlie colonui can procure labour at a moderate rate, he will be oblii^ed lo consume his stock for subsitieiMie, and must inevitably sink, never lo rise again. Nor is this my opinion only, but whs timt of the Settlert united, before I left the cixlonyi and from cominunivatioiis since received, 1 have reason to know it is one that still prrvnils, and thot thu evil complained of, instead of diminishing, is on the contrary increasing. .As a proof oF this, what cun be stronger thun the statement (alreody I think mnde known to the Committee) cnntnined in a private letter from a geotleman with whom I am well ncquiiinted, nnd with whose persevering exertion* and great outlay of capital I am also well ocrinainted; viz.—" My corn is slieddinK in the ear, and I cun get no one to reap it ; my wool 1 hnvi- offered tu any one who will shear it, bat no one is Tortlicoining." This wool, by the way, i* from sheep of the Souili Down breed, of which this gentleman has got a very fine fluck. Hut what benefit can he derive from his wool, or any production, be ' then, thissiiiull balnncc could be raised cither from the contributions of parishes or otherwise, I respectfully submit to the Committee, whether it might not be well for the public to guarantee the repayment of a sum of money to be raised oy a lo'au, the risk incurred in doing which, in relation to the vast advantage that would result from ■uch an application of it, is beyond all comparison small. " The evidence before the Committee, of the ereat encouragement given to labourers, and the readiness with which the colonists woukr engage emigrants whose services were legally secured to them for reasonable periods on mo1« riockt (hich h'lii ■evvral mlm; will ivatioii i» t he will le labour le will b« ON EMIGRATION FROM Tll^ UNITED KINGDOM: i8si7. 451 aflurifi-cl III litiglu mm and wumrn wiibing tu relurn to EiiKland from Ca|icT(|urnily waf(ra In addition. " Tlii* bring probably ilie lail limn I ihall hava tli« honour to addreti the Conimilier, I cannot conclude tlini' obM>rvation> without reverting to the great iiniKirlnntx* oC ili< subject which hai given riao to them, and I do 10 for the |iur|M>Mi of imploring the Com- luiuee tu take the name into their moil icriou* coniideraiioii." At.vander Buchanan, Esq. was again called in ; and delivered in a further Statement; * and tiic lame wai read, and ifi ai followi : " Shippino engaged in the Timber Tiiadi, tec. frotn the United Kingdom to the Britith North American Colonici. Tom. " From the United Kingdom to Canada .... ,100,000 U° - - • d* . . - Lower Provincei, including New ' Druiitwick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward ltland,lic. - 400,000 Tona • - (joo,ooo frtdtrtck CtrHtU, «(l May, llt<7' A. Buchamin, F..H. « Prom Inland to Canada, proportion of above D* - • to Lower Province* • d* • Tont " V. B. — At many ihipt go out on a lateiecond voyage, when it might not be prudent to •end Bmigranli by them at aiich period of the year^t may be proper to deduct that portion from the total, oiid which I would compute at about one hundred thoutand torn, which would leave five hundred thoutand lont, and, making allowancf^ for tome nhipt with cargoei, 8lc. give Anple tonnage, in the ordinary prosecution of the trade, competent to convey with case four hundttd thoutand ptrioM annually from the United Kingdom to Hit Mujetty t coloniei in North America. " Since the repeal oi the Paiaengert Act, it may not be unworthy of remark, the tii'T.i - of pattcngeri that generally go now, according to ifie tonnage of the ship : " It is thought thot roomif veiseh may carry, with safety, at the rate of two adulct to every three ton register, or, averaging old ond young, one person for cnch ton, and at the current rate of freight now, and which may be coiitidered at a fair duta, as even should the home freight advance, it will not operate much on the ships going out in bnllnst. " A Family, consisting of man, wife, and three (iiii>i.^:<, will require five ton of the rrgister burthen of the ship, at i8». per ton .... - £.4 10 - Expense of Water Cosk - - - - - - --17 6 nil,. Birthing, &c. -'5- Fuel, etc. - - - 4 - " Or say, Tonnage for a Family, including Water, Birthing, Fuel, &c. at I /. 6 «. per ton, it --...--. £.6 10 " Provisions on hoard Ship : Proviiiont for 50 dayt for a family, of man, wife and 3 children, ; Iritn and Scotch Emigrant : : f Oatmeal and Bread, slbt. at 2d. per lb. Potatoes - - - lollw. - Butter, or Molatiet, Jib. - 3 Herrings -^ • • ^ - J. 6 3 • 3 9i 1 3 J J. p' day 50 dayH - i 16 3 Irith or Scotch Emigrant • - - -£.963 English Emigrant 3d. per day more Englith Emigrant . - . • - - 13 6 f.p 18 9 " Average, equal to One pound eighteen shillings and sixpenre a head, young and old, cost of transport, including provisions. Sic. from United Kiogdoin to Canada. - London, apih May 1827. A, C. Buchanau," 550. 3L4 456 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ^EFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Right Hon. R.J.W.Horton. t6 May, Eaq. Mr. fVilmot Norton presented Copy of a Letter from Lieut. Col. O'Hara, dated 22d May 1827 ; the same was read, and is as follows : Copy of a Letter from Lieut. Col. Edward O'Hara, C. B. to the Chairman of ' the Emigratioa Committee. " SIR, London, 32d May 1837. " IN reply to your communication of the I4ih instant, I have the honour to state, that'm^ family hng been settled in Lower Canada since the year 1764, and several branches of it lir.inK been much concerned in the settlement of new land, 1 have, through them and my own observation during my residence in that country, acquired considerable J^nowledge of it, and although my professional duties have occasioned me to be long absent from Canada, my communications with it has cbntinued; I will'^herefore venture to answer the question* you have been pleased to propose, confining to I^wer Canada the few remarks my ill state of health will permit me to make. First, with respect to the ability of the Pauper Emigrtet to repa> the advance made for settling him on 100 acres of uncultivated land, furnishing him with provisions for fiAeen months, mensils and implements for clearing land, and a sow : " I am of opinion that if he be located with judgment,and due economy be observed with respect to the supply made him, he would without any difficudty be enabled within seven years to commence paying interest on the amount he might be indebted to Government, or moderate instalment on the principal. " I have seen the commencement and progress of many settlers in the woods of Lower Canada, particularly nt (he close of the first American war, and I scarcely ever observed any industrious, sober, married man who did not in r : .h less time, even without assistance from Government, enable himself to pay more than the amount in question. " I read with great attention the Evidence submitted to the Committee on Emigration, as far as it respects Lower Canada; and from my knowledge of tiie country I entirely and^ully c^ree in the opinions given by W. B. Felton, Esq. on the subject, and although I have not the pleasure of being well acquainted with that gentleman, 1 consider his evidence as sterling information. i j,ave, &c. ' " R. J. Wilmot Horton, Esq. (»igned) Edw. O'Hara, Lt. Col. C. B." Chairman, &c. iSic. &c. , v.i * \ f:' A. R. Blakt, Esq. 29 May, Martis, 29' die Maii, 1827. 1 . The Right Honourable R. J. WILMOT HORTON, IN THE CHAIK. m^ , Anthony Richard Blake, Esq. called in ; and Examined. ., - 4354. IN the L.idence you gave before the Irish Committees, your attention was particularly turned to the subject of the relations between landlord and tenant in Ireland ; in consequence of the inquiries before those Committees, an Act was passed upon the subject, to regulate sub-letting ? — There wa.« 4355- The distinct object of that Act was to prevent for the future those infinite subidivisions of land that were taking place throughout Ireland ; has that Act been effectual in its operation ? — I am not aware of -what the effect of the Act has as yet been ; a very short time has elapsed since it c^.iie into operation. I shoultf con- ceive that the Act is so framed as to effect its object, and to effect its object bene- ficially for the occupying tenant as well as for the landlord, because the Act not only prevents sub-letting without the consent of the landlord, but when the consent is given, it protects the occupying or sub-tenant against double distress. 4356. Will you be good enough to state shortly the main provisions of the Act ? — 1 think the Act may be divided into three parts ; first, it gives effect to covenants against sub-letting or assigning in leases existing previous to the commencement of the Act ; secondly, it introduces by operation of law a provision against sub-letting or assigning into every future lease, unless a suh-letting or assigning which takes place with the assent of the landlord ; thirdly, it protects a tenant who takes a sub- lease, with the consent of the head landlord, against double distress for rent or any distress, except for that portion of the head rent which the rent reserved from him may amount to. * 4357. Will you be good enough to explain the eftect or double distress? — Before the Act, where a tenant sub-let any part df the premises which he held by lease, his sub-tenant was hot only liable to him for the rent which he agreed to pay to him, but he was liable to the head landlord for the whole rent for which the head land- 'lord originally let; and it was one of the grievances, if I may use the phrase, of the poorer people of Ireland, that sub-tenants were not only liable to this double distress,, but that they were often made to feel that liability by proceedings necessarily harsh ; it i EE , dated n of 5 \, that ni^ :hes of it n and my wledge of n Canada, question* ly ill state Emiicrtet ishing him a eow : prved with thin seven rnment, or i of Lower r observed I assistance igralion, as iy and^uily I I have not evidence as Col. C. B." »*^* itf attention and tenant an Act was lose infinite it Act been has as yet loulcf con- jject bene- Lct not only consent is of the Act? covenants ncement of sub-letting which takes takes a sub- rent or any id from him ss ? — Before by lease, his pay to him, head land- irase, of the ble distress,, arily harsh ; ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 457 « it frequently happened that the occupying tenant, after he had paid his rent to his immediate landlord, was proceeded against by the bead landlord, and had his property seized by him in consequence of the middle-man not having4)aid the head rent ; thci late Act, as to future sub-lettings, prevents this grievous practice, 4358. Was not the advantage that the landlord was to derive under this Bill] not only to improve the nature of his covenant with his tenant, but to give him an opportunity of improving the general system of managing his estate, by avoiding the principle of small farms ?— ^As the law originally stood, the landlord, letting without any proviso against sub-letting, might have his land parcelled into as many tene- ments as the party to whom he originally let thought proper ; a gentleman not taking the precaution of inserting a covenant against sub-letting, might have his lands divided into small potato gardens. 4359. In point of fact such sub-letting to an extreme degree did frequently take place ?. — Most certainly ; it was very general in Ireland ; it was found repeatedly, from day to day, by landlords whose lands came out of lease, that they were covered with swarms of paupers, owing to this practice of sub-letting. 4360. Will you explain the operation of this Act enforcing provisions previously existing?— The policy of the common law is unfavourable to covenants against sub- letting, or against assigning ; in consequence of that, the courts in which actions arising upon breaches of covenant were tried, must necessarily, according to the principles of the law, have favoured whatever was calculated to dispense with or get rid of it ; thus a landlord who took a covenant against underletting, might be held to have waived the covenant by many acts which the law would construe into a waiver, althbush not at all intended as such by the landlord ; again, if the party once allowed an under-letting or an assignment, he lost the benefit of the covenant out and out ; so that if a landlord made a lease to A, into which' lease was introduced a covenant against assigning or sub-letting, and he afterwards gave authority to A to assign to B, even though he should expressly restrict tlie consent to an assignment to B, yet by that act he waived bis covenant for ever, and hejiever afterwards could in any degree act upon it, though there were sub-lettings or assignments ad injinitum ; the Act now prevents constructive waivers, and introduces a policy favourable to covenants, which the law previously discountenanced. 4361. How came it to be the policy of the common law to favour sub-letting? — I presume it originated in the principle of favouring commerce, I do not know any other principle to which I could refer it, but we find it in all the books. 4362. That is, giving circulation to property ? — Yes, to facilitate the alienation of lard; it is very much the same principle which governs the law with respect to common recoveries, by which courts of law have run through the statute de donis ; Hiat statute was intended by Parliament to preserve entails, but the common law, by a fiction, enables a party who takes land what is called an estate tail, to dock the entail. 4363. Do you suppose those sub-lettings were sanctioned for the purpose of en- couraging population r — I apprehend not. 4364. But in point of fact they have led to a great increase of population ? — I'he power of alienation in Ireland has produced sub-letting, and that sub-letting has produced a considerable increase, and a mischievous increase perhaps under the existing circumstances of Ireland, in the population. 4365. Do not you consider 'hat on particular estates where this sub-letting has taken place to a great extent, the pecuniary interests of the proprietor were pre- judiced by the existence of that class of tenantry upon the property ? — 1 have no dqubt of it. . 4366. Do you think that there is a growing opinion in Ireland among proprietors, that it is desirable to change this character of property ? — I think so. - 43^7* III point of fact does it not often happen in cases where a lease expires, and the proprietor consequently regains possession of the property, that he is re- strained from acting upon a system which he feels to be more beneficial, by a refe^nce to the consequences which under present circumstances would accrue to tlie ejected population ? — I am satisfied that the fact is as suggested in the question. ) have known many instances in which gentlemen have been totally disabled from managing their property in an advantageous way, by the mass of people which they found upon it, and by the total want of any means of providing for them ; feelings of humanity preventing them from turning them abroad to starve or rob. . 4368. Is not the supply of labour as compared with the demand, generally through- out Ireland, so disproportionate as to prevent tenants of that description, when ejected, 550, 3 M fron^ «9 May, 18,17. i \ i~1 f , fi ,' lit' h\ A. R. Blakt, Eiq.. 39 May, 1S87. 458 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE from being absorbed as labourers in other parts of the country? -So I understand ; I speak, however, to tliat point more from hearsay than from any other source of knowledge. , 4369. Under the present circumstances of property in Ireland, do you think tlie proprietors, with reference to the advantages to be derived to their property and to the general condition of the country from the introduction of a system of more ex- tended farms, as compared with the system that has taken place under the operation of those leases, would be disposed to contribute a proportion towards the Emigration of the parties who may be removed from their estates, supposing in the first instance that the parties themselves are anxious to emigrate, and secondly, that the pro- prietor is convinced that such Emigration would produce the independence and comfort of the party availing himself of it ?— I hare not heard the sidiject spoken of among the fanded proprietors of Ireland in a way that should enable me to form an opinion upon the subject as to their feelings ; if I were asked as to my opinion of their interest, I should certainly say, it would be their interest to do so. 4370. In the case of a landlord removing his population, and throwing his pro- perty into larger farms, would he not necessarily pull down the cabins of those tenants who were ejected ? — I should consider such a proceeding to be matter of course. 4371 • Would not that, in your opinion, be in itself a practical prevention against the vacuum being filled up, as it is termed ?— I take it that it would be most efi'ectual, and indeed the only means either of giving efiect to his wish to consolidate his farms, or to prevent other coUectiops of paupers from getting upon bis estate. 4372. Do^ou not think that under the operation of the existing Landlord and Tenant Law m Ireland, an Irish proprietor has full power to prevent the subdivision of land upon his estate, if he is so disposed ? — I think he has. 4373- 1^0 you not think that facilities of emigration would encourage his disposi- tion to effect this improvement in his property ? — I presume the question refers to the cases in which land is delivered up with a superabundant population upon it ; I think in such a case it woulc^ be a very powerful means of effecting his purpose in such a way as might be reconcilable with his own feelings and the interest of the country, if means were provided for the emigration of the persons whom'he must necessarily turn adrift; always supposing there is no demand for their labour. 4374. In those cases of subdivision, must not breaches of covenant be tried before a jury ? — Yes. . 4375- Should you have any apprehensions in your own mind with regard to the findings of the jury ? — I think the late Act is so worded as to render it scarcely possible for an action of ejectment founded upon an assignment, where the assign- ment takes place under a lease subsequent to the commencement of the Act, to fail. I cannot anticipate that jurors would actually perjure themselves ; perhaps, if there was room for a leaning, there would be a leaning in favour of the tenant ; but I do not think there can be room for such a leaning, as the Act expressly requires that in every case of sub-letting or alignment, you shall fely, not upon a constructive waiver of the covenant, but upon an actual permission given in writing. 4376. If you were disposed ,to siJrpport the' principle of Emigration from a pro- perty in Ireland, you would hav% no apprehension, having regard to the Landlord and Tenant Act, but that the proprietor is in possession of full power to prevent the vacuum created by Emigration from being again occupied ? — Certainly ; I have no doubt about it. 4377. Do you not consider that in proportion as the state of the labouring classes is impoverished and degraded, they become more reckless of consequences, and that early marriages, and consequent rapid increase of population, are likely to be the result ? — I think so, and for a very obvious reason, their situation is so bad that they can scarcely make it worse by marrying, therefore there is not the moral re- straint upon them that there is upqn persons enjoying any species of comfort. 4378. If therefore this poorer class of tenantry were to be removed, although their removal would necessarily improve the condition of the class immediately above them> you do not imagine that that improved condition would produce the same ratio of population ai might reasonably be expected to be produced, suppdeing no removal of the other class to take place ? — In proportion as you increase the comforts of the people, so will you, I apprehend, prevent improvident marriages, and thus check any population which is not founded upon a sound basis ; popu- lation in itself can only be considered objectionable when it is beyond the means of the country ; and where there are those moral restraints which I alluded to in a former answer, the danger of an excessive population must be propdrtionably diminished. . . - . .V. 4379- I« **; . %>: EE erstand ; iource of think the m ty and to more ex- operation, migratioo *^ t instance, the pro- lence and ct spoken le to form ly opinion JO. ig his pro- >se tenants course, ion against A effectual, oUdate his ate. ndlord and subdivision his disposi- on refers to on upon it ; his purpose erest of the om'he must aour« ,nt be tried ;gard to the it scarcely the assign- Act, to fail, laps, if there It ; but I do requires that constructive from a pro- landlord and prevent the I have no mring classes ces, and that ely to be the so bad that the moral re- omfoTt. ed, although J immediately 1 produce the ;ed, suppdsing 1 increase the ;nt marriages, basis; popu- the means of alluded to in ropdrtionably 4379- !• ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1837. 459 4379. Is not it a very common circumstance, that the landlords are obliged to Eacritice a large portion of their nominal rent to get rid of their superabundant population r— I have known such cases occur ; but 1 might state that^y onn expe- ^ rience in Ireland, in the office which I hold, is pretty extensive with respect to tbf state of arrears of rent and so forth, and I have frequently found it necessary to apply a sponge to the arr^ar. In many cases the rents reserved some few years ■^0 nave not been recovered, nor one-half of them ; but I think so far as my expe- rience goes with r=!spect to late lettings, that the rents are pretty well paid. 4380. Have you ever instituted any comparison between the amount of arrears u'pon an estate, and the state of subdivision of land upon it? — In proportion as you find the land subdivided, so do you find the arrears high; indeed I generally find that it is only in respect of lands where subdivision has taken place to a very considerable extent, that there is a very considerable arrear ; and I may say, that I almost uniformly find a very considerable arrear where a considerable extent of subdivision has taken place. 4381. Will you be good enough to describe the connexion between the sub- letting and arrear ? — Sub-letting generally takes place with a view to extorting, from the persons who are to take, the utmost value that by any means can be ob- tained from them; the consequence is, that the people who sub-take, being very poor, and being also very improvident, undertake to pay rents very generally which they are utterly unable to pay ; they have no oilier means of subsisting them- selves or their families than by getting potatoe-gardens, and for those potatoe- gardens they will give any price almost that is asked ; thi%is taken advantage of by persons who look more to realizing immediate profit than the permanent in- terests either of the property or of the country, and thus lettings take place at rents which the people are unable to pay. 4382. When you use the terms " extort" and " take advantage of," is it not the fact that the reason why those poor tenants consent to give those rents, is their inability to exist unless upon such terms ; and does n8t that arise from the dispropor- tion of the labouring population in Ireland to the demand for their labour ?— I meant in my former answer to express the opinion, that this extraordinary demand for land was produced by the want of means to subsist otherwise, and that this arises from the want of a sufficient demand for labour in the country ; therefore that it would *be very desirable in every view of it, to enable those people who make those very improvident bargains for land, by emigration, or other honest means, to get out of the country. 4383. When the middle-man, who deals in land, is applied to on the part of a labourer to allot him a certain quantity of land, is not it natural that he should demand as much from that labourer as he is aware another man would give him in tlie event of that labourer refusing to give it?— It may be natural in a person whose only object is to put money into his pocket ; but I should say it is not his interest to do so, because I would much rather let latid at a rent I should be secure of receiving, to a respectable person, than let it at a higher rent to a person not in a situation to give me a security for the payment oi l'\e rc.nt or the due management of the land. 4384. It follows therefore that the middle-man, who has only as it were a tem- porary possession of tlie property, has necessarily a very different interest in it from that of the proprietor? — He has a very different interest, and a very different feeling with respect to the person to whom he lets from wha t the proprietor would have. One of the beneficial effects whicii > ..nticipate from the late Act is to prevent those mirldie-men from thus dealing ■••vith land ; the consequence of that will cer- tainly be, that there will be many persons who will be, not only as at present with- out a demand for their labour, but without the other means of subsistence which they now find through those sub-takings. 4385. As an inference from the answers you have given, does it not follow that a well-organized system of Emigration must be in the highest degree desirable for Ireland in its present state ? — I think a well-organized system of Emigration, acting as auxiliary to a general improvement in the management of landed property, is higliiy desirable, although, as an abstract principle, I should tLink the draining of the population of the country mischievous. 4386. Although as a general proposition you would think the drdining of the population of the country mischievous, do you think tliat that mischief can ever practically take effect, provided that on''/ those labourers are removed, for whose services there is no sort of real demand existing ?— Certainly not. 4387. Are you not disposed to allow that such labourers, however able-bodied 550. . _ 3M 2 _ ' they - - - *i^ -: A. R. niakr, *9 May, 1817. a H i !i '■ 4(> , MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE A. R. Bhkt, they may be^ or how(^rer willing to work, are not of any advantage to the country £<ut in England, I) the terms liem. btt^ to open uUtion. To ompaoy will to their in- to price and » of eoibark- > of location Quebec, and by the aeents ce to Upper ible expense ; ut that such rge. During pper Canada, aving selected s, they would )f navigation, lad, and a line d St. Francis ; I the river St. Igating and in vessels to any ly be from the mate location, expense fur a means of the lage from the ■ there are rc- more eligible conveniei;ce ng there with intages offered n made under to York for a The climate , as compared es are trifling; )rk can always of industrious forward to the )r, in a country emigrants may e given for the 5af, New York, lowance will be est; and a title mortgage taken will be received, and in the large ;rs, according to propose to erect refer purchasing lou ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 463 lots on which soch preparations shall have been made, the cost of such buildings or improve* Simon M'Oillmaf, ments to be a charge in oddition to the original price of the lot. {.^jq. To settlers who are well recommended, and who ma^ in the beginning require assistance ^^ ' in commencing the cultivation of their farms, or providing for their families until they can c jyn, raise a crop trom their own lands, the Company's superintendent will be authorized t ., fi June, 1897. 464 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COlflllTTCC " I muintnin, taking in the average of New Uruniwick, Lower Cnnoda, lie. that 6/. is fully adequate to cover any expeiiae of transport to location, unless you selact situation* of the most difficult access and distance i and with previous arrangemcut«, and ample tiipe given fur contracts, 1 have not the shadow of doubt but provisions may be furnished at urices stated, takins present price as a data; and I presume the Emigrant will feel himself %iore ul home with his herring and potato, oatmeal, be. and a little Lit of pork, than alto- grihcr fed on salt pork iind fluur, the latter of which the Irish peasantry are totaUy ignorant of uiing reith management. " No Cow is introduced, as I have before stated, as it is considered for the first 1 3 months' the Emigrant will not possess means of feeding one; and if he is industrious, he will easily earn by Tiis labour the price of a young a year old heifer in calf as soon as he can obtain fodder for her keening. "J. C. Buchanan." John R. Elmore, M. D. 35 June, 1837. Luna, 25* die Juniu IBiJ. The Riout Honourable R. J. WILMOT HORTON, IN THE CHAIR. /oAn iZtcAart/ £/fflore, H.D. called in; atid Examined. ''■'• , "' 4399. WHAT are you? — I was very largely engaged in the manufacturing of coarse linens and cottons. 4400. Where? — In Clonakilty, twenty-five miles south-west of Cork. 4401. How long have you been resident in Ireland? — Twenty years altogether; constantly for the last fifteen or sixteen years. 4402. Are you a native of Ireland? — No, I am an Englishman. 4 will eaiily I can obtain \anan'' ! ■" N, uctiiring of }rk. altogetlicr ; ysician, but Q causes ; it population ; f the coarse ire of being into it, and er classes of to arise from d is capable r the present ted. 3rs would be sm ?— By on ilishments. capital to be ? — By enter- > in Holland, loyed in the 'A, decidedly chinery must of the efforts nachincry in to produce it :d with a sub- Cork to any f of the linen one thousand (cr quality of IS been, that t machinery, y at Uic very lonc^it ON EMroRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa;. 465 lowest rate, wonim amJ clr^ildren working twelve hours a day for twopence or three- ' pence, weavers working the same number of hours could only earn from eightpence to tcnfience ; even at that modicum their production could not compete uith the production of the steum-power. The result is, that the business has been entirely .destroyed, or comparatively so, that out of one thousand looms employed, I am within bounds when I say there arc not now more than thirty or forty. Uuring the latter part of the last year, and tlie whole of this, the poor weavers liave been sup- ported by voluntary contributions ; finding it impossible to continue that longer, it was conceived by a committee formed in Clonakilty, that it would bo proper to enter into subscriptions to send them over to Manclicster to seek employment, and fearing that by sending them in large quantities they might be returned, the mode pursued was tQ send them over by forties, giving them money to pay their way and support them a few days in Manchester. 4413. To what extent has that actually taken place? — I think the second batch lias arrived, eighty in all, and others are to follow. 4414. With respect to the health of this population, what is their average state of health ? — Very wretciied ; subject to diseases arising from hard working and little food ; to earn a very few pence a day, they arc obliged to work a great many hours, I have spent ten or twelve thousand pounds, and have failed altogether in my endeavours to relieve the distress or to make money myself, in consequence of not having got such machinery as is used here, which had I done, would have enabled me to employ hundreds more people. 4415. Notwithstanding this state of things, and the depressed and degraded state of the lower classes in consequence of there being no r<'inuneration for their labour, do you think rcmoving^any, of them by emigration would lie prejudicial ? — With respect to removing them out of the country*, I think it woul:^!ige the English artisans niui labourers to apply to their parish for relief or aid. 4434. You consider that as th' last resort? — ^Vcs, for people do not gor«r«Uy migrate ft 1 pleasure, but arc im|)ellcd by some imperious neco^^Hity. 4435. Anil that it will increase as a practice?—! consider that it has mcreased within the last six months vastly. 4436. Have you ever calculated, upon the data of : .i jdi-nt an excess of labouring people in Ireland, and the great expense of introdiicing manufactures, how owny more millions of capital ought to exist in Ireland, before such a scheme of improve* ment could take place as you contemplate r — Had the allocation of the money made by the Government to the Linen Board for many years been properly applied, they would, in my opinion, have ciTected the object. The Linen Board, I tninii, have had twenty or twenty-five thousand a year, for some years ; that was used in aiding the dissemination of wheels and reels, the most trifling mod(* of employing labourers. The people soon found that they could only earn \\d.QT id. a day; instead of engendering a spirit of industry, it rather tended to produce the opposite efl'eot, labour being inadequately rewarded. 4437. What other thing would you propose ? — Suppose the whole of their grant had been allocated in any one small town for one year, to establish a factory with ttie best machinery, and the next year's gruut ^iven to another town, still taking ad\'antage of the improvement of the machinery on this side of the water. /^38. Do the Linen Board otfer premiums for improvements in the linen machinery? — They have, this last year. 4439. Have they not for some years done so for coarse linen ? — Wheels and reels they have always distributed ; for the year 1835 there were premiums fur machinery, but I am not aware of any other before. 4430. Do you know what are the funds of the Society in Cork or Clontikilty ? — Entirely prl ite subscriptions. 4431. Do you know the amount subscribed ?— I I'o not, though I could pro- cure It. whfch c 1 Only two batches have been sent ? — From tlie small town of Clonakilty, atains five or six thousand inhabitants; but I know it has been going :ime in the city of Cork, I know that the city of Cork applied for the pi .-(.1056 of getting subscriptions to forward the same object, and I know there «c;'t H gi"eat many weavers from Cork sent over. 4.i3;». To what part of England ? — To Liverpool. 4434. And in addition to those divisions of forty c ch, you know of other divi* sions about to be forwarded .'—I know there are other divisions. 4435. Are they to be all sent to Liverpool ? — It was considered the best port, in consdquence of the manufacturing district being so i.nmediately in its rear. 4436. Do you know how much a-head is paid for their passage to England ?— The regular charge, I think, is \oi. 4437. Do you Conceive that opening a channel for their passage to Canada at the expense of two or three or four pounds a-head, would create any diversion from that channel ? — I am perfectly satisfied that the people would take advantage of it, and would go any where, for, f uoh is the suflferiLig they have endured for the last eight or ten months, they think that any change they can make must be for the better. 4438. When they subscribe to get rid of them at the smaller expense, by sending, them to England, do you think they would do it at the greater expense in order to send tb^m to Canada P--I think not, want of means woula prevent tbem. '! ■, ' '. m d\ ■i ' le ■ '- 4 '^^ 1 *-^' ''^- ■ '.<#•:' rit,'. -•xi* ITEE ON EMIGIIATION FROM THE UNITEP KINGDOM 1817. 467 ihire there tyofc ,ual tice « tilth B pKCO of wbu tbriM iWly aa the pie w'U il>- bcr» t >'Jige I. A gomrnUy i yncreased )f labouring how many af improve- loney made )pliud, they t, have had I aiding the ; labourers. ; instead of ft'eot, labour f their grant factory with still taking 1 the linen els and reels r machinery, onu kilty ? — could pro* Clonakilty, been going ied for the enow there )f other divi- }cst port, in ar. ilngland ?— anada at the on from that ;e of it, and ast eight ot letter. by sending, ; in order to '• i, Mercuhi, 37* die Junii, lfi'27. Thk Huiiir IIoNouRAULE R. J. WILMOT HOUTON. IN TUP. (.HAril. John Diston Powks, Em\. Deputy Chairman of the Colutnbiau Agricultural • Atsociation, calictl in ; and Examined. 4439. WHAT office do you hold in connexion with the Columbian Agricultural Atiaociation ? — That of Deputy Chairman. 4440. You are aware that ovidencf wu.i taken in the year i8j6, before the Enii- qration Committee, upon the subject uf cini<;ration to Columbia? — Yes. 4441. In consequcncj of that evidence having been ho given, applications have been made to the Committee, by individuals professing to have suffered from tlic non-performancr of the agrccmcnta into which they had entered with the Associa- tion ; and a special instance has been referred to under the date of the aad of April, of assistance having been given by Mr. Porter, His Majesty's Consul at Carncas, to the extent of looT. on his own responsibility, from a consideration of the suflcriii;^ state in which those parties appeared to him to be placed. Mr. Porter stated, thiu these parties were in the most pitiaLh; condition, and that, situated as they were, starvation ; he also states, that all of ' for their support, but that from his most difficult to be obtained, and c than eight or ten had found it scantily paid, und too frc- j allow each male and female, /out fivepence halfpenny, and to they had no other prospect before thei them oBSured him of their willingness own knowledge he can state thai • >' that out of the colonists so applying occasional occupation, and even tiit quently not at »il ; that he thought it above the age of tifteen years, one rial pi those under that age half a rial daily, paying eacii family weekly in advance ; and that he had been compelled coosequently to draw a bill of 100/. upon His Majesty's Treasury for that purpose, and that when the Lords of tiic Treasury received a de- tailed account of the expenditure of the sum drawn, they proposed to call upon tho Columbian Agricultural Association to repay the amount. As an abstract of tlin petitions of some of these parties will appear in the Appendix to the Evidence, the Committee have thought it desirable you should have an opportunity of giving any explanation upon the subject you might deem proper ? — Every engagement which tlie Association entered into with settlers which they were the means of sending out, bus been most scrupulously performed. The Association undertook to provide victualling for those persons for eight months, they sent them out at their own expense, and in addition to all the charges attending the so sending them out, they provided, at the expense of the Company, a Scotch clergyman, a native of the Highlands, to whont the especial superintendence of the colony was entrusted, and by whom those per- sons were selected : it is hardly possible to devise any possible precaution that was omitted to be carried into execution by tho Directors of this Company. Having undertaken to victual these persons for eight months, they did in fact victual them for upwards of ten mouths, and tiiey then only refrained from affording them farther assistance, upon the strong representation of their agents in Columbia, that those persons were given to great intemperance and the most indolent habits, and that they were persuaded that so long as they could be maintained by the Company, they would do nothing for themselves. When the supplies on the part of the Com- pany ceased, the settlers became discontented, and appealed to the Intendant of Caracas, who examined their agreements with the Association, and immediately declared that the Association had done much more than perform them ; and he offered employment to the whole of those settlers, upon different estates in the neigh- bourhood of Caracas, if they would accept it, but which, as far as I am informed, they did not avail themselves of. 444a. The Committee now wish specifically to call your attention to two petitions which have been referred to them, the one from Topo, in Columbia, which states, " That the petitioners, who are mostly Scotchmen, with their families, were engaged " by a Mr. John Ross, agent of the Columbian Agricultural Association, to proceed " as agriculturists to Columbia, where they were to be placed on elevated land that " would produce European grain, to be supported for eight months, and to be sup- " plied with impleipents of husbandry, by which means it was hoped that they 550, 3 N 2 . " would /. D. Peukt, 37 Jun«, i»«7. I V 1 ^, ^. ^^^. ^-Vs^, IMAGE (-VALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3; 1.0 I.I LilM MZ5 ■tt iiii 12.2 S; U£ 12.0 fflll^s |l.25 ||U ||^ ^ 6" ► ■*' Photographic Sciences Coiporatioii 23 WBT MAIN STRHT WIBSTIt,N.Y. UStO (716)172-4503 4^ i 408 MINUTES OF EVIDfiNCB BEFORE SELECT COMMRTl^' " would be enabled to repay with interest the advance! made by tbe Aaaocialiob. " After the total failure -of their lint ci'op, the agent of tbe Association promised " them two reals » day each if thev would make trial for a second, to which they *' agreed', but it the end of three week's they were told that no more money or prO" " vuions would be forthcoming. The petititMiers being left in a stranse land, where " provisions are dear, without means of employment, implore Hu Ivoyal Highness " the Duke of York to interest himself in their behalf, in order tb|St they msy be " enabled to emigrate to the British dominions in North Ameripa." The next petition, which is from- tbe Caracas, states " the petitioners are mostly natives ,of " Scotland, who left their homes in consequence of the r^presentatipna of Mr. John " Ross, agent of the Columbian Agricultural Association, wbq informed them '.tpat " the Association would give them some of the best land in ColumUa, and that Jn a '* few years they might possess freehold farms of about fifty acres each ; the estate " of lopo, on which they were placed, is sitoated twelve miles west of Caracas, " possessing no means of irrimtion, and surrounded by mountains whjdi attraictthe " clouds and keep the rains from the valley; of this soil, lao acres yielded only " aoo bushels of maize, and thirty busbels of beans, to be divided among 140 " persons^ yet the season, accordinj^ to the natives, was the best they had expe> " rienced for ten years ; a good soil m a moderately .&vpurAb|e season, should have " produced from three to four thousand bushcU of maize. In addition to ibe jfailure; " of their harvest, ' their rations, which had been promised them for four montha ' " longer, were suddenly withheld ; and thus deserted by the Association oq a barren " rock, Uiey have had to encounter beggary and privation, and must have perished " but for the generosity of several merchants of La Guayra and Caracas, who " raised a subscription for their relief; as this however must soon be exhausted, " they are desirous of removing to Canada, and the^ implore tbe aid of the House " of Commons to enable them to carry that object into effect T — In answer t(^ this last question, I will address a letter to the Chairman. [Letter from the tVitmu to the Chmmum, with Encbuuret (A.) (B.) (C.) (D.) (Et) and (F.) were delivered in, and read ; and are ai follow : — , SIR, I STATED to the Committee this morning, that the ''Colombian AgricultaTalAHOciation'' had Bcrupuloiuly performed the engagement it had entered into with the settler* located at Topo, near Caracas ; and I requestea permission to be allowed, in confirmation thereof, and in reply to statements from these personsi then for the first time shown to me, to refer to documents in the office of the Association. - I now beg leave to enclose (A.) an extract from the Prospectas of the Association, circulated among the settlers at the time of their being engSKed. The Committee will judge from the perusal of it, whether its language is in any degree of a delusive or pa exaggerated character, or whether it was posuhle to deal with these persons more plainly, than^ telling them, in the concluding paragraph, — " The settlen must not rely on meeting " in dolombia with any other resources than those of a rich soil and a healthy climate. " togedier with such assistance from the Association as has been already pointed out, and " the protection of a free government." I enclose further (B.) a copy of the Articles of Agreement entered into with these settlera. They were framed, as the Committee will see, not merely on aneqaitable basis, as between die Association and the settlers, but with vast encouragement towards the latter. The Association was to transport the settlers, at its own expense, to Colombia ; to,coqvey them to the place of their location ; to maintain them there for eight months, and to provide them with agricultural implements. In return for this, all that the Association required from the setuera was, that they should cultivate their Tands " unremittingly from season to " season ;" that they should, out of the produce of those lands, repay tM advances made by the Association with interest at five per cent, and that they should pay a rent for the Iiuid, eqinal to threff pence sterling per acre, or purchase it, at their own option, at a price eq»al to four shillings per acre. ' Thus the Committee, will perceive, that while the success of the Association was to depend entirely on the prosperity of the settlen, the whcde risk of the outlay of money fell on the Association, the settlen not being required tO'Vantribute thereto in any manner. Tliese settlera were selected almost whoUy from fln Highlands of Scotland. t<' secure their comfort in every practicable way, the Association sent out with them a minister of the Scottish ohureh, a native of the Himlands, nifder whose superintendence the colony was placed. I request the Committee wiB have the goodness to peruse the paper (C.) eodtaiding a copy of the Instructions given to dis gentleman on his undertaking tne chaise with whi^ ho was entrusted. , All that the Association undertook to do was done. The s^tdsn were conveyed to La Ouayra; located at Topo; supplied with agricultural implements; auiatained for nearly deve '.:«si MkAiob. vromued iich tfi«]r i or pro- dt vlMre H^bnesft r may be The next mtives ,of Mr. John tbeintt^t tbajtJna the.iestate. Ciincaa, attract the ded only (Dong 146 had expe> lould bavC; ihe faiiurO; ur monthfr q a barren e perished ■acas, who exhausted, the House wer tq (bis ) (C.) (D.) \ lociation rs located at thereof, and , to refer to Association, nunittee will lusive or an more plainly, iy on meeting uthy climate, ted out, and o with these oitable hasis, towards the ia; to.coqvey ind to provide ition required irom season to ivances made a rent for the on, at a price r iation was to of money fell ' manner, d. T' secure linister of the he colony was D.) eodtaiaiiu; ge with whi(£ » coavayed to Ined for neaiiy eiere OV EMIOaATION ^ROM THE UNITED KINGDOM : 1 837. 469 eleVen montka (instead of eicht) ; and it was not till the Association received repeated ^advices of the misconduct of the settlers, in gi*in||' themselves up to intemaerance and ' ihdolCnoe, instead of fulfilling their engagements with the Association, that taey directed the supplies to be stopped. On the cessation of the supplies, the settlers complained to the Intendant of Caiacac. The Intendant called on the Superintendent of the colony for an exolanation ; after which, the Intendant declared that the Association had goao " infinitely oeyond the letter and ** spirit «f its- agreement with the eettlers." and ofiered the whole of them em|^oyment anione the estates of the province.' " if they were disposed to work, and would be satisfied " with the fare of the country ;" of which offer, however, none o^ them availed themseWei. The next paper to whirb I request the Cbrom-ttee's attention is (D.) an extract from the Report of Mr. Diack. the Superintendent of the colony, dated Topo, 38th August 1896; (E.) extract from the Report of the Hbrticutfuristo (Messrs. Gibbs, fatner and sonsX sent with the party ; and (F.) extract from the Surgeon's Report. The whole of these documents furnish onanawerable proof, how tittle pretence there is for chargine the Association with having either invited the d(»parture of these persons to Colombia under delusive representations, or having, when in that country, failed to discharge towards them every claim which they had on the Association. > The real truth is, that the defanlters in this transaction are the settlers themselves. They are tbe parties who have not performed their agreements, and who by their own misconduct have brought a very heavy loss upon' the Association, and what is more to be regretted, have greatly retarded the progress or an undertaking calculated to produce the most extensive advantages both to Colombia and Great Britain. If some portion of the consequences of the misconduct of these persons has fallen on themselves, tbey are the only parties to blame iforit I have the honour to be. Sir, Your most obedient humble Servant, 3, Freeman's-conrt, J.D.Powtes, 37 June 1827. Deputy Chairman of the Association. . R. J. Wihnot Horton, Esq. M.P. ilbairman of the Emigration Committee. < '^^ ■.:■■■ (A.) EXTRACT from the Prospectus of the Colombian Agricultural Association. T^E Republic of Colombia offers great inducement to emigration. With a soil capable of yielding almost every species of natural production, it possesses a variety of climate, adapted, according to the elevation of the respective districts from the sea, to the cultivation of the fruits, both of tropical aud European countries, and to the several varieties of the human constitution. Colombia extends, on the Atlantic shore, fimm the mouth of the Orinoco to the Isthmus of i'Panama, and on the Pacific, from Guayaquil to the same Isthmus ; the country is inter- sected by innumerable rivers and streams. The Republic is now in the fifteenth year of its independence. Its entire territory is free from the presence of any foreign force or authority. British Consuls reside at the capital, and at the priiicipal ports; and a treaty of commerce is now in progress between the Republic and the Bntish Obvemment. The Government of Colombia is desirous of promoting the emigration to its territory of useful persons, capable of drawing forth the natural resources of the country. A law of Congress was passed, on the 11th June 1823, investing the government with authority to dispose of lands, and grant privileges for this pnniose. Under the sanction of this law, two grants haVe been made, of specific quantities of land in different district^of Colombia, of which this Association has become possessed, amounting to upwards of :i million of English acres. Two-thirds of this quantity have been ceded free, and the remailader at a price little ; more than nominal. ' These, grants (one or other of them) contain the following privileges in favour of all settlen who may proceed to occupy these lands : viz. — Exemption during ten yean from miUtary service, except required for local defence. Exemption from duties of all clothing imported for the use' of the settlen. (Agricultural implements are by law exempt from duty.) Exemption, in one grant for six yean and in othera for ten yean, from, direct oontribu< tions md eodesiastieal tithes. Exemption from export duties of the produce raised by the settlen for six yean. Settlen not to be in any way mcdested on account of their religious belief. ' Competent penons are at present engaged in Colombia in selecting and measuring off the lands, and Several mechanics have been sent out, to conunenbe the erection of tenements on such parts as may be selected. Instructions have been given that in making thaselection, regard be had chiefly to the salubrity of the situation, \Sb productiveness of the soil, the 550. 3 N 3 suitableness 37 June, 1*37. r v^' 470 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE aSlECT COMMrXTEE > J. D. Povleit, £«,. 37 June, (! ■uitabkneM of the oliouUc to the Eurapaui eonititutioB, mm! the liMiliiy «t * with the atm. Advieei have basn racently reoaivtd of tlwM inatrwitioM hning bean otmail into effect in respect to a oonndemble poition of the lend, mi tt He bairiag b«en takea poiBeesion of on behalf of the Aieociation. r. The following an the prinleEee eoneeded W the flnrei— »nt of Colombia to penone «h» aujr proceed to ooeapy the'landa aecuntd bjr toe Aeeoeiation s Exemption during ten ye«n, from militaiy eenrice. except reqvirad for local defence. Exemf tion ftom datiee of vll tmtij-miidfi olothing iwpert«d fw the uae of the ■ettlers. (Agricwltwtd inylemBnU axe by Iaw e^rempt nam dpty.) Exeo^tion bId the title^leeds of the land, with a Iten on the stock ana growing crops, until the repayment thereof, with interest at the rs^te of 5 per cent per annum. Directions have abeadv been given for the erection of suitable tenements on part of the land, which has been selected by the agents of the Association. The settlers will have the option of either purchasing these tenements, or hiring them at an annual rent, or of erecting tenements (A themselves, if they prefer doing so. It may be proper to remark, that it will be necessary that a due proportion of mechanics and artirans should form part of each settlement, and tihat the settiers must not rely on meeting in Colombia with any other resources than those of a rich soil and a healthy climate, together with such assistance from the Association as has already been pointed out, and the protection of a free government. Office, N*32. Bucklersbuiy, 1835. (signed) John Orrok, Seoietaryk (B.) ARTICLES OP AGREEMENT between the. Trustees of the Coktmbiaa Agrioultoral Association, and ARTICLES OF AOREEMBNT, made the day of 182 , between Lion Abraham Goldschmidt, John Ditton Powks, and Thoma* IticA- ardton. Esquires, being Trustees of the Association, establishtd b London, denominated the " Colombian Association for Agricultural ^and other Pur; of the one part. of the other part. 1st The said Tmstees shall, by their M;ents in Colombia, allot to the said for caltiT.it'0B by him, fanegadas of land, in the department of "^ in the Republic of Colombia, being part of the lands to which the said Aasooiatii^n is «attit)ed, under a contiact with the Oqiveinmeetot' Ooilombia, or otherwise acquired by the said Association. «d. The said trustees shall, provide for the said together with a -^o«saee to a port in Colombia, at the rate of per bead, including victualling, which is to be frumished agreeably to Act of Parliament. Qd. The agents of the said trusteee shall, on theenival of the said in Colombia, conduct them to the place of their intended location, and snail there furnish them with such agricultnial io^onenle, ateBsUa, and seeds «a awgr be necessary, and diall also provide them with a recular supply of {wovieions neMflil for their maintenance for tne space of oght montns, from the date of tbdr arrival at ^e place of tkeir kwation, if the/ shall so long requiro tiie same. 4*. For OK EMIGRAtlOK FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: 1827. 471 4th. Fo^ Um foregoing luppliea and oxpMiMi '■hv mmI ihul mnd indebted to th : Mud tmteea, or th<9 trustees for the tiitte beine of the said Asaoeistion. The price 1 of the serend articles which may be fnmidied by the agents of the said Aasociatic a, shall be deohured t» the said '* at the tiOM of tiie laBie being delivered to him ; and if he shall be disaatisfled thaewill), he may be at liberty to obtain his suppliev elsewhere. 5th. The said for himself, his heirs, execatora, and admi- nialmton, ooranantB with the atad tmstees to pay to them, or to the trosteea for the time beins of the said Association, or their agents, the amount which he shdl so beeome indebted to them, together with int^st theMm, at die rate of live per cent per annum, such payments to be made liroln time to time, so soon as the mieans of the said shall enable him to do so. dth. The said for the land to be allotted to him as follows : i snail thertf m mmr be ona aaedAd lir arrival at 4th. For in like manner covenanta to pay Via. the price of a Spanish hard dolUrs per fanej^ada, if paid for within five yean from the date of taking possession, if paid for within 6 years from ditto ditto. 3 3i 4 4i 5 6 ditto ditto. ditto ditto, ditto ditto. ditto ditto, ditto ditto. ditto ditto. ditto ditto. ditto ditto. ditto ditto. if paid for within 7 ditto nf paid for within 8 ditto if paid for witiiin g ditto if paid for tdthin 10 ditto if pmA for #itfant 1 1 ditto if paid for within la ditto if paid for within 13 ditto if paid for within 14 ditto dittd ditto, ditto ditto, ditto ditto, ditto ditto. * ditto ditto, ditto ditta ditto ditto, ditto ditto. The time of payment shall m no oaae exceed fourteen jrean from ihe date of taking possession ; and until the purchaae money ahall be paid, the sdd shall pay the following annual rent : Viz. — 1 rial pe^ fkttegada, the first five years. 1] ditto ditto the 6th year, a ditto ditto the 7th ditto. 3} ditto ditto the 8th ditto. 3 ditto ditto the gth ditto. 3) ditto ditto the loth ditto. 4 ditto ditto the 11th ditto. 4i ditto ditto the i«th ditto. 5 ditto ditto the 13th ditto. 5i ditto ditto the i^th ditto. ^ No rent sludl be charged for the first year. 7th. Sa soon as the wh(ile of the pa^^meato required by Artidea 5 and 6 ahall be made hy the said a certificate to that enect shaH be endersed on these Articles by the agente of the trustees, or the truateea for the time being, and the said shall themeefofrth for ever be entitled to the said fan^adaa of Land, as hia own absdnte and exduaive property ; but until the said paymante AtU be fitUy made, the said trustees, or the tmstees for the time being of the Mod AssociatieBk shall hold a security prior to aU other claims over the buildings, stock and crops firom time to time beinc on the said land, with power to enter upon and seize the same, in the event of ue breach of any of theae Articles by the said 8th. The taid shall be entitled to enjoy tU the privileges and exemptions conceded by the Government of Colombia, under the contract possessed by the Association ; on the other hand, he and shall conform to the con«litionsof the said Contract, and to the lawi and oonstittttion of Colombia. — and they ahall conduct themadves in a peaceable, orderly, sober, and industrious mannmr. gth. The said asfffge* immediately on his anrival at the place of his location, to cmmaence the cuUivraon^of the said land, and to proceed dierewitk unremittingly, from season to season. loth. Bt the teim " Flaneeada," is nnderatood " a square, the four sides of which " eacn measure one famiared yards of three feet Spanish measure." iith. Tbt said ahall dot sell, assini, or tianafer any part of the said fon^gadas ofltuid^ until the payment of the purchase money, and of all other snms which may become due from bim to the said trustees, or the trustees for the time being of the said Assodation, withcnt the permisnon in writing of the agente of the said trustees in Coloubia; nor bImU he quit dte settlement, untQ he shul have paid the price^of the land, and all other Mims for which he may become indebted to the said trustees, or the truateefe for the time Being 4f the said Association, without the like permission. 860- 3^4 ittt;— The ■* ■ * I ii J. D. Powfaf , £*q. 97 Jvne, 1837. 473 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 1 3th. The allotment of land to be made to the laid ■hall not include in it any minea, minenila, or under-gronnd produce, which ahall remain for ever hereafter the eole property of the Attociation, with liberty to dig and f aearch for, and realize the benefit and advantage of the same in such manner -ae the Directon thereof may think expedient,— they making compensation to the eaid , for any injury or damage, to be instained thereby. j. . ' 13th. These Articles shall have the same force and effect io respect to the laws of Colombia, as if the same had been made, concluded and executed in that country. In witnesi whereof, the said parties to these presents have hereunto set their hands and sealsi the day and year first above written. Sumed, Sealed, and \ * . ' Delivered, J , , > , (C.) * . ' , INSTRUCTIONS, to the Rev. John Ron, proceeding to Columbia with a party of Emigrants in the Ship Planet, Captajn Barclay. 1.— THE present expedition is placed under your charge, subjfct at all times to the followiig Instructions, and to those which you may receive from or through the ageata oftheX8soeiation,(Messra. Jones, Powles, Hurry, & Co.) who hdd a power of attorney fh>m the Trustees. 9.— The Board has appointed Captain Thompson (a master in the Royal Navy) to superintend the fitting of the ship, tne qualities and quantities of provisions and water, and to asRistyou in mustering the passengers and dividbg them into proper messes, 8lc. &c. previously to the ship's sailing from Holland. 3. — You will find, annexed, the Act of Parliament (George IV. c. 84.) relating to passengers, and likewise a Copy of the Charter Party between the Trustees of the Asso- ciation and the Owners of the ship Planet, by which you most necessarily be guided, as fares their enactments go. 4. — You will be pleased, from this date, to keep a correct journal in duplicate with the names of the passeng^ers of all descriptions, and every particular and.occuirence regularly noted. These you will sign, and deliver to the agents of the Association on the diachaige of the ship at La Guayra, that the same may be transmitted to the Directors. Prom thence- forward you will keep a diary of all occurrences in the settlei^ent,. copies of which you muat /rom time to time, say once a week, be transmitted to the agents, who will convey the same to the Board after keeping a copy of them. , - ' > 'c :.°5. — Yoii will select from among the settlers the person who may appear to yob jOMt competent to superintend the issue of the provisions on the passage, so that a check may be. had .on the number of rations issued, and a correct account thereof kept. It wilt be the duty of this, person in case of any complaint, to report directly to you, by which means the interference of others will be prevented, and quarrelling avoided. The owners of the ship being bound to provide the necessary provisions, water, &c,an exact return of the various rations must be made to the Board, to enable it to settle with the owners. The Board, aa an inducement to the Master of the Planet to render all his aid towards the comfort of the Eassengers, (well knowing how much depends upon his kindness and attention) has promised im a gratuity of fifty guineas, provided it shall receive certificates of his conduct being satisfactory in these ref pects. . 6. — You must take care that the greatest attention is paid to cleanliness on board the ahip. On this point your attentiop is requested to the 16th Clause of the Act of Pariiament, enforcing the airing of bedding, and the fiimigating the ahip. It having be«i found ex- tremely beneficial in conveying troops to foreign dimatea, to cause the men, on gpettinginto the warm latitudea, to leave off the use of stockings, the Boaid recommend your adopting ;. ft limilar regulation. I 9. — Great care will be necessary to maintain good order on the passage, and you will do well to encourage innocent games and pastimes among the! people. Tl^e children! and such of the adults as choose to m instnictec in readins and wntiiw, you will endeavour .to pro- vide tutors for ; and if possible, a knowledge of the Spanish Umguage ought to be conf mn- nicated to such as are capable of learning it. You will of course take effiqi^nt measurea to establish a regular system of education, so soon as the arrangements at Petakere are auflSciently mature. The regular performance of religious worship, one of the most impor- tant matters, will necessarily, engage your attention. The treaty between Colombia and Great Britain contains an article on uiat subject, the purport of which, as well as that of other communications with the government of Colombia relating thereto* appean to be that Protestants may (ireeW exercise their religious worship, so long as ,they aWun fi;om any external exhibition of it There cannot therefore, the Boiird apprehenos, be my diJSculty in assembling the settlera together in a room to be provided for that purpose at the aaaw mriods they have been accustomed to. The Board at the same time conaider'it proper to ' state. EE ON EMFORATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM: iSa?. 473 ich •ball ) dig and er > »■ the the Mid imtaincd le Umof nintry. iuidt and any of the lettlen, J. D. fvwki. to you to mtintain party .«f met to the the agenta of attorney al Naty) to I and water, laea. kc. &c. relatine to >f the Amo- e guided, aa cate with the !nce regularly i diacharge of 7rom thence- ich you moat 1 convey the to ywi ^oat , a check may It will be the ich means the ra of the ship of the various rhe Board, aa somfort of the ) has promised conduct being board the ship, of Parliament. I>aen found ex- on getting into your adopting ind you will do Idrea and anch (teavour.to pro- t to bis co^mu- Kjif nt measures It Petakera are :he most impor- . Colombia and w«ll asthat of p«ars to be (kat •tun ttm voj my dijBBcttl^ bee at the same rider it fropetto state, Mate, that any interference in the relieioa or politics of C!ok>mbia, by will be lowed upon as highly reprehensible. The Board will look sobriety and gooa order among the settlers. "- 8.— Timely Itotice having been given to the agenta at La Onayra, it is expeetad no d Ay wiU 4e«ur in immediately conveying the settlers to the place of location, and your atten- lea and roots equally'nntritions with any esculent root grown in England. The' vegetables we kave alieady in use iie, cabbages of- various denominations ; ofi>escuIent ibots, we ha^e' yina, apio, qiapugy, sweet' potatoes or yams, all substitutes for tibie &iglish potatoe; but,; abovtul, we have the potatoe itself, raised from seed which caAe fVoin-Scotland. The greatarpatt of the settlers have' a few potatoes. On the 16th June I phmfed iifilbs, oF potiitoes, attd we are ttow daily using at table as good potatbes as any EngHshmHn ^uld' wish to>e«t. The wheat, barley Md oats have in d^neral failed, although F believe I hato; on' focount^of the Association, a^good a field of oats in appearance as any in die country. In sneaking of tha vegetables and other productions now in abundance upon Topo, >. I beg to be fully' linderstobd to say, that the observation does not apply to the settlers at krge, ■ 550. 3 O bat a; Jnas, ils7, .%. .■ 474 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEIi but to a faw of Um naen indiMtnoui, and to whiU hu been dU)ne by mycclf on btlwlf of th« Auocwtion. I thall now give urn* account of the proper^, and of iti preMnt aspect I believe the plan of Topo hai been sent to England. From it. they will lee the con- flcuration of tM estate. Some of the hisker landt, under cultivation , are at leait i ,000 feet above the lower part of the estate, and uie hish landa praeent moat extensive and vahiabit savannas of pasMra. where numeious herds of cattle may bo fed and fattened. Ihe river Topo, and its tributary streams, run through or bound the properties of fburteen of the settlers. Thys crops in this quarter are extremely good, and the peaces in general satisAcd. The lands upon wl|ioh other sixteen femilies are Jocated are extremely valuable hods, but they unfbrtun»tely have no water upon them. Some of these settlers are more than llfre Utiles distant flnm water ; and until water can be pioouied (and there is not the slightest doubt of its being obtained by using the proper machines), they have been allowed asaislanea to drive their water at the expense of the Association. To be plain : I am (Mj satisfied, that several of the people will do no good— nor aver intended to do any— from the moment they took possession of the kmds. Att ti^y seem to desire is in the meantime to keep up appearances of industry, although 4hey' aetiialy do nothing, merely to Qbtain provisions, ana to allow them an opportunity ofgeftin^ ttGTas early « as diey possibQr can. Such a set of people, with a very few exceptions, could not weU hav^ been procured in any countnr. They neither know any thins or agriculture, nor do they show the least symptom of beaefltiiu by what they see. A few of the settlers have even never pui a hoe in the ground, nor done any thing since they planted. 80 mmh tot theil binding thesuehres in their contracts " to commence the cultivation of their lands, and to " proM^^ therewith unremittingly from season to season." I can with truth affirm, that not one fiuluro of any moment has taken plaoe, of any aeed or plant peculiar to the country, which I have put into the ground ; and the abundant oo^ have been remarked by every stranger. Proper monasement, and nothing else, seems to be wanted. While I state, however, the appearance of the crops raising for the Association, I must admit that thor an upon lands capable of bemg irrigated eveiy day in the year, and that when I founa this necessary it was always resorted to. But there are almost equally ^ood crops upon the lots of many of the settlers, particularly of maiie and caraolas, tiie pnncipal food of the natives. Upon the whole, the appearance of die crops upon the allotments of the various settlers, with a very few exiieptions, eoes beyond my most sanguine expectations; and some of the settlers may well ohiulenge uie whole <^ the Venezneut to produce better. I have not the slightest hesitation in thinking, and of sayine, that if the people themselves wero indue* trious and sober, they might do extremely well upon Topo, provided water can be procured fbr those who at present have none; the situation of the property, the facilities of conveyin|; produce to market, the vicinity of the sea-port of La Ouayra, are circumstances -and qota that require no comment. The settlers can either visit Caracas or La Guayra ill the morning and return the same evening. ' The emigraats have; Kgiwudy an open and a needy^ market fbr maise, Miaolas, yueas, and so forth; and if they should not choose to live upon these, they can alwi^ sdl andpufchaa^ other provisions in their stead. The present price of maize is nine dQllars thft fimega; bat if tjiey obtain five dollan for the former and eight doUan, for tbe latMK which 'th^' ara elwqw sure to do, thev l^ve a very fine ntum, and snch a» will pay them haiide9P{|» feet above the valleys ; these valleys are diviaed and subdivided mto hills and vallQya>.fomH ing an endless variety of surfhce, bearing great resemblance in many parte to 4i# hi^ilaiidi of Scotland. The variety of plante covering the surface is immense, beyond whftt any person eeoU expect, from what they Jiave obMrved in Britain. I can lacogswe several tfjpwm kepi i» hot-houses there, but were are many plante lutra that have never 'Inen introdueed in Britwa* There are trees varying in size, accwoing to soil and situation, in groups (d^no OMat avteot} and detached, but not numerous. But the greater part of the estate is covered vrith wood), abou^ the size of what is called in England brushwood or copsowood ; amwg tkit*<)aad'tfa» larger trees, there is generally a very great variety of most beautiful climb^n, many^of^than ^end to thetop of ue hii^est trees, return, and. asoand again and agaiQ.^ Thia.immense variety of indigenous plante, and the almoat constant vegetation of the greater part cf them, without scarcely any rain for four or five months, n, I am of opinion. « a viwy iMlfof tk« ifl the con- t 1,000 feet nd vthiabtt The riter tees of the rdestMIcA huide, bat fe than Ave ke ettghteet deieMMM A—nottfrm it^veeemto aettwHy d« [ off M early • lotwellhftv^ nor do they L htre even lohfgr thelt ndi, and «• , ofanyaoad indantcK^ wwevef, the B upon lands lis naccMary iotoofmany res. riona aettlen, some of the have not the I were indua* be procuied of convieying sea -and qotft ithemorumg la, yucaa, and aadpurchaa^ ineg»; but if ^.Bi«tlwaya mdtjirofcida;! 1 raise a small las upon the ON EMIGRATIOIf FROM THE UNITED KINODOM: 1837. 47^ wa. T^eyrna ate plan wth* e nearly I i^Op i TaUoyatform^ tiff hie^i)»nda r person cwiUb peoiea, hep4 i* leedinBnlMHb » gpaitt WEtent) ted villi wwdti gthnnwadtlM manyofttj^ ;etation of the am of Oj^nioD. a T«ty a very stti auccess, in ong proof nwhalavei of the fertility of the soil, and givea promise of the most complete alaver branch of cultiTation this astonishing power of production is employed. The stream of Topo, which runs through the estste, is increased by two rills that water a part of it The water is excellent, and much cooler than could be expected. With regtrd to climate, since my arrival here, early in December, to the end of March, the general state of my thermometer in the shade has been 67 to 68, at six o'clock in the meting, and about 78 to 73 at midday, seldom diflhring betweeii night and day mort than flve or six degrees. For the hut month, the range commonly has been 68 and 70 in the morning, and 75 and 78 midday. I have only^hierved it once 80 midday. From davlight, which is between five and six o'clock all the year round to nine o'clock, a. m. •ad from tniee o'clock, p. m. as long as there is light, which is between six and seven o'clock ■H the Tear, people may work out of deera witimit injury from tiie heat of the sun 1 and I am or opinion that more labour could be i>erforroed by a proper attention to time, roomings and eveninn, than by bein^ exposed to the whole of tlie excessive heat of the day. Sixteen to eighteenpioura in wis climate are as cool and agreeable as can be desir^. » The produce or the land, particularly provisions, may be sold at a good price at LaOuayra and Ouraea*. Piga «nd poultry thritp on the «8tai« Mnarfcably well. Poultry may alto be reared 4n great number. The ourrJkt price for a fowl is from six rials to a dollar each. Vegetables in any quantity may also be most advantaKeousIy disposed of at La Ouayra and Caneas. The veBetables hitherto raised by the aettters with the greatest success, have been turnips and cabbages; but our experiments, aa.yet, have "been on a limited scale, and neceiiariiy confined to the dry season. ;. ^':' / [ : . ^^'"^ • ' , . ..,■ ' " REPORT of Mr. WiUiamon, in Medical Charge of the Settlers at Topo; dated 3d July 1836. IT affords me great pleaanre to have it in my power to report to the Directors, that th< cokmists at Topo have been very healthy since their arrival. This is the more gratifving to me, as it was unexpected; for, fronk the large .proportion of very young children, ana the drunken habits of many of the adults, at first 1 feared much that the mortality would be very great. I am happy to say it has Wn lets, by about one-fifth, than the average in the mbatliealthy parts of Europe. The colony, at its departure from Scotland, consisted of 103 persons under fourteen years of age, and 8g above fourteen, makine in all igi . Nine children embarked labouring under inouraUe chronic diseases, which I believe to have been in some instanees caused and kept up.hy the common practice anioag I)igfaland«ra of giving spirits to their children. The most common diseases, as will be seen by the list appended, have been affections of tha bowehi,«oeurring eap«wially among children. They are generally miM, and yield to.the usual mode of treatment. There haa not been a case of contagious disease. • Topoisabont la miles from the sea, and the houses vfhere the settlers were first located are 1,547 f'^ above its level. The estate extends from E. to W. for about six miles, rising; in some places to the height of a,8oo feet. It is watered by several small streams ; but even during tne late dry season they never became a cause of disease. From the elevation and mountainous condguretion of the country around, the atmosphere is constantly in motion, and consequently would be unfavourable to the concentration of noxious miasr^ata, even if « looal cause of disease really existed. The toil is in many placet good and deep ; moderately retentive of moisiui' , and well calculated to raise those productions of the tropics which require dry situatious. Lime- atone of excellent quality is the most remaricable mineral, and occurs in abundance. On one part of the estate, the common maenetic iron ore ia n^et with in eonside(%bIe quantity. It is the same description of ore as is obtained' in St. Just, in Cornwall, and affords excellent bar iron. Volt trees are large and abundant, intermixed with thick brushwood, but can have iio effect in producing or preventing disease, as no marshes exist ; and from the great declivi^, ana paucity of rain, the ground is always dry. Water is obtained from the rivulets of gooa quali^. The mean temperature of the atmosphere, for six months, taken from three daify observations, is 75° 8. The maximum is 8a, and minimum 70, It is usual, in medical reports, to state the common diseases of the natives, with the mode of cure adopted by the practitioners of the country; but on thoft topics I have had little opportunity of acquiring information'. The past and present months, I am informed, are considered the rami sickly in the year ; but at Topo, I am happy to aay, I have not been able to verify the observation, as ai ^ia mopienti have not a tingle patient. * m ' I 'h 55*. 302 f>* ATPENDIX TO THE THIRD REPORT. * . tiST OF APPENDIX. , • N* i^ABSTRACTfl of PititioM and Monoriak rteahad at Um ColonM D«partmmt, flrom Pmmm dHimM of MdgnliiW ftoo tiM Uniiaf KiB|dom • pp. 477— S>> H* •.—ESTIMATES ot Iha Eapnii« Ittmding Um ConrajranM and SatUmami oT Emlgiaoti ( with esplanatorjr Latter i *li]r A. C. Buchanan, Eaq.— Togatber with Anawan t* , Quariaa circulatad bjr Mr. Hill, CollaGteror Cuitoma, L«Bdondarr]fv raapaetini the PoHengarAct pp. Sia— 518 M* 3.— QUL S submiltad to Elrran Colonial Wltnaaaaa; and Abatiacu of their Anawara^ whicb ii4Te bean given in leparately • • • • - • pp- 519—473 N* 4«— XETURN of Britiih Subjecia who have emigrated to New Yorit, during the Yeara * ' iat4, 1895 and -iSaet— alio, Abatraeu of Retumt made in 1834, fhowlag the Expanaa incurred in County Batea for removing Paupera flrom lome of the Countiee in En^and and Walee to Ireland ^Hid Scotland ■ . . . pp. 374*575 . M* 3^APPEAL to the Nation, by the Gene: < Aaaociatioa for bettering the Ctedition of I^urera, 4c. - ? - -. - PP- 578—578 N* 6.-;LETTER. from Mr. Aatle, to the Select Commit&e on Emigration, aubmittbg Two Modea for the partial Removal of 'tlie*lrtih piHiperPe|.uhUion - f ?• 57^ • 1 N* 7.— RETURNS from the Mendicity Society of Louden, of aU ihe Iriih ^oor whohne come before the notice of the Society^ from iu commencement to the lateat poatible period » - • .t F i • » • • - PP- 580—599 « . N* 8.— RETURN showing the Increase of Iriih Roman Gatholica hi London and iti vicinity, from 1819 to i8b6 incluiive ^ . ■ . , . . . . • - p. 591 ... • ' N* '9.— ACCOUNTS df the Sums paid in each of the lait FiveYcara, inlrehnd, for the Linen Board, various Public Institutions, Public Works, and Fishery Bountiea, ' pp. 591.^599 V 10.— EXHIBIT of the System ftunued by the United Statea in the surveying and diapoaai of the^bHc Doawint illustrated iy Four MAPS, a connected Survit : Ac. PP.694>c. • -l. # #1 .TffT*rt"T t 47T ] f APPENDIX. Appendii, No. i« PETITIONS Md MiMOKlALt delivered in to the Commhm, 7di March, 3d & loth April, a4th May, k aoth J«m^ 1897. • ABSTRACTS Of all Pbtitions and Mkmorials received at the Colonial Department, from Periooa deairoiu . ^ of Emigrating from the ynited Kingdom. » * 1.— ENGLISH APPLICANTS. DATE ofllw Applinllon. l8fl6: Junes- • 17. July 3. 8. It. Aagufti?. no date. Augutt 19.; 15. 39. 95. Sept. 6.' 10. 10. FLACt •r RmMmim. Torkthire Muchciter Pembroke Gknicetter. ■hire. Manchester London Livsfpool Glouceeter* shire. London ' London London Brixton London Colchester Birmingham TlMcrlptlca. weaven Iate4gih reg". Ueut.R.N. pauper ' •' jMas'of OSthregt, l«ta Sad n(' ironmonger ■hip-builder 70th reg' 550. carpenter late seaman ■ Ujrlor lateR.Artr iMimkti •r FAIOLY. t son, 3 daughters 3 sons, 3 daughters 8 children • witto and children • • . • . family • < • • w • 9 sons, 4 daughters wife, 4 sow, > daug" 100 families •OBJECT tf APFUCATIOII. Deairous of .Joining their ralativas in York, U. Canada. To obtain grant of land in U. Canada. Desirous of Joining his Mends in Olengary, U.Canada. Has practliMd fiurminc since 1815; requests information aa to quanUtv of land tliat would be granted to Mm on proceeding to Canada. FWm the distressed state of the times, is desirous of emimting. Applies for assistance to emigrate to any country. Desirous of emigrating to Nora Scotia or N. S. Wales. Desirous of emigrating to Richmond, Upper Canada* Ditto ' - U. Canada. Ditto. ees', with the assiSlanca of Gof amment, to talfe out 100 ftmiflea' to U. Canada, and requests grants of land ; makes sundry overtures with reference to Lord Bathurtt's cirodar of 1819, respecting emigration to the Cape of Good Hope. .'I Hasserred many years in Canada, and ob* tained the Order of the Bath; is desirous to know what postion of land would be granted to an officer of his rank. Desirous of obtaining information with regard to the enoouragement^iven to emigration. Desirous of emigrating to North America. . . • ■ • Ditto. wife,5chiflrea wiHt, 9 children wife, s children J03 - Ditto. - Ditto. • Ditto. Hi 4Ti APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE AbMTMU af BNOLISH PKTITIONS umI MEMORlAH—mKiiiMrf. DATE WdM AppilMilaa. lltOl II. II. 10. ll. •0. tl. 0«lolMr7, 30? Nor. 3. 6. 10. II. 16. 18. 18. Dec. g. II. 18. rucK UWtolrlaO Wifrington ChiliM No/wioh Blackburn Stamferd Yorkihira Taingmouth Moala Cannarthan •1 Livarpaol Blackburn London PliiH|>>lo«. mi%ikif ooaign 69ihrag>. liouUaant kaKfay. pom' of 15th* Soth rog'. oldMldier elolhian fhmwn lMg8thN|< Uout.in H. M. 8. 4iliV«l(nB Bill. paupcn d'liurvayok half-pay. liaut.R.N. 18171 Jan. tti 19. 93» s8. Me of Man St.HUier'i, Jenoy. Oloucetter' thire. gardenor com dealer peniioner ofgythreg" ariiplturUt ' rAMILV. wUb, 4ckildNn wlHi, 7 chDdrm ■VIJICT • ar« nuwy wca«tr» Ml of •migrating. nU« 10 U. Canada, ad flattaring Inviu- Hngthara. ) North AoM) ica. a U. or L. Canada. W to N. America. Md what ancourage- iraling : and appPies fanner* with their th America. emigrate to North • laertrcd Hi* Majesty nilar requeit to U. nigrate to America. ttft^ British colonies t to Upper Canada, nd wishes to know if ige to U. Canada, for id in Upper or Lower :k. ist (uur years been (lined; requests to be ca. AkMfMM at ENOUtH PBTITIONfl wd MmOllAlB -wimmd. DATS •(•In AffHsMlM. iH»7; IVb. s- 11, PtACB IImMiiim. LanaasMra Olottcealer* BiNripilaa. mpunshm labourers •I VAIULV. eacboflfceM ■ son* * 4 daugbfm Ikmillea WBJKCT rf Ik* APPLICATIOa. ■eg to k» SMH M Ike BtMrit M. A. •itll*> WIshea l» Join Ma aon in Canada, and re* ouetit a free paaaago thither for himself and Kequest a grant of buid in Upper Canada, llhig tlmbei il'sUepartn conductor in the 8torekeeper General's Departmanl savw* years i wishes to know if such serriee entitles him to a non-coHUBlasionad oUcer's grant of land. DATR Appllnllon. FLAM RnMtiic*. 1897 s Feb. 7. 94. 9(>. 9!>. March 4. DsKripilsa. 10. 19. 18. 8t.8enran'B Kingston- upon-Hull. Diuo • Coleford, qiottenbiic Whitehaven Altringham Birmingham London Bungay Liverpool Bury Leicealer Kiagsto&- upon-HuU. W. lieutenant half pay ■ pensioner fVom 34th regiment of fool. mechanics Ac labourers agriculturist Nwibtr of FAHULY. Aunily wife, ton, and a daughters. wives k families, in all 36 persons. wife and 5 children SUBJICT «l Um application. Requests a flree passage, and grant of land in British America. Requests a Oreo paasage, and giaat of land tn U. Cauda. Ditto. Begs to be sent out as a settler to North Amenca lliia Spring. wife and 4 cliildren I' Solicits the mlans of removing hia family to Upper Canada, with rations, fhrming implements, and gunpowder; havW discovered a method of lifting trees by the roota, by the use ofthe latter, which he conceivea will be highly serviceable in wood sawyer gardener tailor pensioMr from joth regiment. pensioner of Green- wich Hospital. mechanics & vtiMm* mechanic clearing wood lands. I wife and 5 children wife and three tons family • fiunily ■ fkmily of eight - ghcadsoffiunilies, , in all 48 persons. wife and 3 children Prays for n free passage to Upper Canada. Desirous of emigratiag to the British Ame- rican settlements, and begs to know whether any uncouragement is given. Requests conveyance for himself and family 10 U. c • Requests to be emploved in survning hmds, &c. in Cpnada, for the location of Emigranu, in order by that meana to b« enabled ta remove his fkmily and settle in that province. American Colonies. Appliee for aid to enable him to emigrate to the British American Coloniee. ■ Applies in behalf of several poor families, desirous of emigrating, to know what encou- ragement ia given to persons proceeding to settle in Canua or elsewhere. SoUdt a Aee paiaage, and gnMt of hmd in Upper Canada. Desirous of ioining his brother in Upper Canada, where he requests a grant of land, and any other encoarageiOent Goveramenrallotfli. 3O4 480 APPENDIX TO THIRD B&PORT OF THE ^H AbitracU of ENGLISH PETITIONS and MEMORIAL8-con(im<«/. DATE vftbe Applicalion. : t. , 1897: feb. 06. March 4. ¥ ■'"'■^. - ^ 7. 19' 33. - 94. 26. > ■ ,6. 87. April 1. .«it • . FLACE of Rcildenee. 3. 13- >3- i6i '*':■ >!)• DcKriptlan. Bungqr Liverpool Tottenham Manchester Lad Lane Doddington Bolton Belper Gillingham Lambeth Liverpool Birmingham Wntmoreland St. Servan't Coventry Waterloo Road, Henley, Staffardiliire. Winchester Blackburn tirains Bar Smithys, near Barnsley. Sheffield Liverpool printer and stationer late of Yoiluhire Chasteura. pauper agriculturist - agricultural labourers late of the 6ist regi- ment. lieutenant Royal Navy weavers from Man- chester «nd vicinity. pauper ■ Nambcr of TAWlVr. SUBJECT of the APPUCATION. wile and fiunily wife and fiunily ftrmer. lieutenant half pay 3d Garrison Battalion. potter -' • miller manufacturer^ - lately in the Marines, paupers - . . labourers ason - 4 heads of families, in all 18 persons. wife - . » wife and 3 children 1 1 heads of families, in all 35 persons. large family Desirous of emigrating. Reoueats a free passage to Upper Canada for himself and brother; ho has a grant of land in that province, and he wishes to join his family, who are there. Desirous of emigrating to Upper Canada. Ditto. Begs to be informed whether Government grant assistance to persons desirous of emi- grating, who do not possess the means. Wishes to know the quantity of land given to Emigrants in Upper Canada ; whether a passage is granted, or encouragement offered in farming implements, seed, &c. Reijuest a free passage to any of the British Colonies. Prays for a free p xc and grant of land in the British N. A. Colomes. Requests a free passage to Upper Canada. Applies for a grant of land in Canada. • Fhry for a free passage to any part of British America. Wishes to join his father and mothe^ in America, and prays for a free passage. Applies, in his behalf, for information as to the encouragement held out by Government to persons of uis class desirous of emigrating to Canada. Requests to know if passages and grants of land are allowed to half pay officers. Desirous of emigrating, and applies for infor- mation as to the encouragement oft red by His Majesty's Government. ' Desirous of emigrating to New South Wales, and begs to know what encouragement he may expect ; applies also in Dehalf of a friend, who has a larse family, and, wishes ti> proceed tu Canada, and can take with him 5 or 600 /. 8 children - - Prays to be sent out to Canada. a wife' 30 beads of families Requests a free passage to Canada. Apply in the name of the " Blackburn Society of Emigrants" for aid to enable them to emigrate y l^per Canada or Nova Scotia. Wishes to emigrate to Canada. 5 heads of families. Apply to be sent to Canada, as tliey are out consisting of 3() of employment, persons. 6 heads of families Wish to emigrate to any paftof His Majesty's Nor\lAlm^can dominions, an J apply any of the British ind grant of land in to Upper Canada, id in Canada. > o any part of Britiah Iter and mothet in ree pauage. ror information as to t by Government to us of emigrating to ■ages and grants of y officers. and applies for iofor- igement oflered by New South Wales, may expect; applies lamily, and. wishes to 5 or 600 /. Canada. to Canada. lE the " Blaokbum r aid to enable them ada or Nova Scotia. Canada. Ada, as they are out ptiltof His Majesty's )r a grant of land, as ,ant of employment, ment will be offered tish America in order the lands granted by :, as they are rieduced of employment. Aboractt of ENGLISH PETITIONS and MEMORIALS-mhImnm/. DATE ofdw ApyUaUioD. i8a7: April 14. •9- PLACE of BciMtnce. ^5. ,30.' II. May 3. ■ 8. 9- April i°8. 9- •8 M»y;i. 550. Coventry Bilston, 8i>9urd*bire. London Manchester Gosport Retford Newton Heath. London Liverpool Gninlharo Coventry Kotherhani London London Wolver- hampton Emyvale Lancaster Detcri|rtioii. physicun late latn R. veteran battalion. whitesmith shoemaker lately in the navy agriculturist pensioner from 83d reg* ; now a nailmaker. farmer and butcher - lately in a veteran battalion. chairmaker Naabw of FAMILY. SUBJECT of Ibi APPLICATION. 4 heads of families, consisting of aa persons, wife and 4 children Applicant pravs he may be allowed a free oada. Wishes to know if Government encouragM medical men to emigrate, or if they will give them any assistance, OS a medical man is going to emigrate to British America, and requests every information upon toe subject. wife and 1 son passage to Cana Applies on the part of himself and 3 heads of families, who are mechanics, for aid to emigrate to Britiah North America ; and states, that he has not the means either of providing for his family at home, or sending them at his own expense to Britiah America. wife and 3 children States, that in consequence of the depression of his trisde, he wiabes to emigrate to Upper Canada, and applies for a free passage. Having heard that it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to send emigrants to Canada, begs for information, in order that he may make the proper application for that purpose. Applies for a grant of land in Canada, and to know if he will De permitted to place persons on the land to cultivate it. Applies for assistance to emigrate to British America ; and states, that there are several families of good character who are also desirous of emigrating, and who are nardy, industrious people, but cannot get employment. a heads of families, consisting of 17 persons. wife and 3 children himself and wife - labourer pauper gardener and farmer State, that being unable to provide for their families, they solicit for a free passage, to emi- grate to Canada. Prays for assistance to emigrate to Canada, and refers to his former petition. Applies for a free possage to British America. Applies for a free passage to Upper Canada, as he is not able to support his family by his trade, having met with misfortunes. Applies for a free passage to Canada. wife and 5 children Prays for assistance to emigrate with his family to British America, as trade is so bad that he wiis forced to sell every thing in the house to procure bread for his wife and children. - I Requests information what quantity of land in Canada will be allowed to persons emigrating, who possess capital amounting from 300/. to 500/. wife and children | States that three sons and a daughter of ihe petitioner were left behind in Canada, who are in prosperous circumstances, but that he was induced to return with his wife and the remainder of his family to England, where he has suf- fered great misery by being unemployed, and prays that he and the remainder of his family may be granted a free passage back to Canada. - - - - I States that he is a labourer, and using every ~ ^effort to procure the amount of his passage to Canada, but is k * ninsuccessful ; and that if Government will give any assistance, and a grant of land, he and a number of young persons will . emigrate immediately. Applies for assistance to omigrate to Canada. Prays for assistance to emigrate to Canada, where he has a brother ; and states that he hu sutfered great distrtts by being unemployed. 3P 4S< APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE Abttnctt of ENGLISH PETITIONS ud MEMORIALS-cMrttmMf. DATE of the Appliulinn. 1837: M«y3. FLACE t of Reiidcncc. Dncription. 10. IS. 13. 13. 18. 18. 19. *'- 10. Si. «3- -'♦ «4< June 5. Emyvale Asliton- under-Lyne. Emnetli, mar Winfacacb. London Ruththorpe, Newark. Sheffield Bilston Lengtown- lately in 8th regt. foot. WorceHter Manchester Evenhani Mancbestei Raitrick, near Hud- denfield. Bills Hilt by Holytown. London pensioner iyom lylh foot, and now a la- bourer. agriculturist Lancashire Blackburn schoolmaster out-pensioner, and by trade a sawyer. colliers and miners - late of 18th Light Dragoons, but have no pension. weaver - pensioner, at 6tf. per day. late of the Pancras volunteers. tailor, formerly of the >V^t London militia. Nvuber of FAMILY. SUBJECT of tin APPUCATION. Wishes to emigrate to Canada, and bega for assistance and instructions. wife and 1 child - Prays for assistance to emigrate to Canada. Wishes to emi^te to Upper Canada, and requests information. States that he resided some years in Canada; and intending to associate with a number of families who intend to emigrate thither, request* the necessary infonnation respect- ing the regulations may heaven to him. - I States that a number of peiaom in his neigh- bourhood wish to emigrate to Canada, and have applied to him for assistance, and requests information as to the hualities af> forded by Government to persons wishing to emigrate. wife and 1 child - Wishes to emigrate to Canada, and requests information. 11 persons Requests information whether, under any cir- cumstances, Government will grant the means of his family emigrating to Nova Scotia. States that he wishes to emigrate with his family to British America, and requests to know whether (in case Government will not grant any assistance) any encourage- ment will be given to persons paying their own passage. wife and child - Wishes to emigrate to Canada, and requests assistance. The Committee of the Bkckbum Society of Emigrants state, b^ their Secretary, that as it appears that the Committee on Emicration have recommended a grant to assist emigration to Cansioa, they earnestly pray that their case may meet early attention, and Ms instructions how they are to pro- ceed, and what number of Emigrants will be allowed from the Blackburn district. wife and 3 children Prays for assistance to pay his passage, and a grant of land in Canada ; and will pursue his occupation as a schoolmaster, or become an agriculturist. family consists of Prajrs for a free passage and rations, to either 6 persons. Upper or Lower Canada. 5 families, consist- Applicant states that the men and bqya of ing of 40 persons. these families have been brought up ar colliers and miners, but from the badness of trade and consequent want of employment, they are most anxious to emigrate to Canada; and pray for assistance, and an order to the provincial governor to locate them upon a jp«nt of land; states that they are accus- tomed to out-door agricultural labour. Applicants pray for asaistanca to emigrate to Canaoa, in conjunction with two fiunOies, who are labourers, as they are all in deep distress. States that he has not had work these eighteen months past ; is in great distress) and prajrs for assittance to emigrate to Upper Canada. large families wife and 3 children wife and 4 children 3 sons States that he has taken a passage for Mont- real, and prays for provisions, implements of husbandry, and a grant of land upon his arrival. Wishes to emigrate to British America, and prays for information. . States that he has been many years in Canada, bat returned to this country on business; but as he is now in great distress, prays for 1 ance to emigrate to Canada. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION :— 1837. 4^ noN. ^ and begi for g to Canada. r Canada, and wrt in Canada; lliw who intend ■nation retpect- m in hii neigh- ) applied to him the racilitiet af« ligimte. la, and requettt r, under any cir- grant the meani IB Scotia. nigrate with hit now whether (in I any encourage- pauage. da, and request* kbum Society of appean that the a grant to aMiit it £eir caie nay they are to pro- allowed from the hi* pauage, and ' will punue hie or become an I ration*, to either and boraof ght up av collier* conieqnent want grate to Ciinada ; ovineial governor ittheyareaccu*- ic« to emigrate to twofiunilie*, who in deep diitreHS. had work theie reat di*tres«i and ligrate to Upper sanage for Mont- is, implement* of d upon hi* arrival. j(h America, and y years in Canada, on buainei*; but pray* for 1 Abetracu of ENGLISH PETITIONS and MEMORIAL8-co«ft'HM«(/. DATS Wtlw AppBcalloii. May 94. •5- s6. tS. June 8. PLACE or Rnidcacc. Detcriiitlon. Cheliea - Boat Cliff Willenhall, CO. Stiffonl. Liverpool ' Bury Clifton - Parish of Wencuck, Warringtoni Lancatter. Blackford Chelsea fuimerl; in tlw Wslerford militiii H wnwttRr. artwan 4th reg[t. not, but ha* no pension. carpenter weaver* - . - Number of rAMILY. wife, and family of 3 children. wife, and family of 8 children. wife and child wife and 5 chiklren SUBJECT of ifaa APPUCATION. Pray* for a free pusage to British Amaica. - - - - D*, and i* in great distra**. - . . . D« . . . D* Reque*t* information upon the *ubje«t af croigmtion. Pray* for assistance to emigrate to Canada. t D* lalieadiofiamilie*, Pra^ for assistance to emigrate to British eouiiiing of 71 fcnoni. America, as they are not able to maintain their families, although a *mall advance in wages has lately taken place; they are obligM to apply to the parish for relief, and are thus become burthen*ome instead of useful members of society ; state that whatever money may be expended to assist emigration, they will cheerfully repay in six or seven years, either in cash , or produce of their farm*. Applicant applies on behalf of himself and a number of families, for assistance to emigrate to Britiah America. Applicant states, that after trying eveiy means in his power to obtain subsistence, he is obliged to apply for assistance to emigrate to the British colonies, and that he will advance 5/. if required in part payment of the expense of emigration ; that petitioner ha* ariight knowledge of the print- ing business, but that if required he can do any sort of labour under the direction of others ; that applicant roost earnestly supplicates his prayer may be heard, as he has been so long idle, and appearing to have no means of subsistence, althousE he has a good character, yet he is aflraid of being thought to be supported by dishonest or improper practices. % 3P3 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE 91 ' m d* ii: mS hi ^. ■ , . '^' ABSTRACTS Of all Petitions and Mkhorials received at the Colonial Department, from Persons desirous of Emigrating from the United Kingdom. DATE of the Application. i8a6: June 8. 8. 10. h IS. 30. ai. 93. 16. 31. 3G. 38. July 1. 5- 10. 13. V • «.— IRISH APPLICANTS. PLACE of Residence. Arva Clare Limerick Queen'* co. Gal way Balliya Cork Carlow Antrim Kilkenny Newry Monagban Longford Billjriuigtoid Longford DeKriplian. pent' of 3d reg*. pent' of 88th reg< now cirpeoter. pensioner of 50th. late Bolliva volunteer. late g7th NuBber of FAMILY. wife, 3 children 6 in family - wife, 7 children • of 300/.: and SUBJECT of APPUCATION. All hit rehuiont having become lettlert in North America, he it dedrout of foUowiog their example. It detirous of emigrating to Canada. Hat had experience in fanning, it pottetied having vitited Canada and the United States for the purpote of obtainins information at to the advantages thoie countriet might afford to emigrantt, it desirous of pro- ceeding thithir as settler. ^ ' Desirous of emigrating to North America. pens' of Queen't reg' of Rangers. various trades. old soldier late 37th 6c 49th. Chelsea pensioners, pens' of 84th d* of97th Chelsea pensioners, Colloonery Cork 4 sons 4 sons, 1 daughter wife, 4 children • 5 sons, 4 daughters 4 sons, 4 daughters 967 persons - wife, 5 sons, t daug' wife, wife, I son, 3 daug" wife, 3 children - 7 wives, ig sons, 13 daughters. wife, 3 children, wife, 4 diildren. '^ife, 3 children • wife, 4 sons wife, 3 sons, 1 girl. i* of 50th i''of8d«' combniakcr wife, 4 children From the distressed state of Ireland, it de- sirous of settling at Halifax, where his three brothers reside. Requests grant of land in North America. Detirous of proceeding to North America, and will there establish a comb manufactory. Desirous of emigrating to U. Canada, or elsewhere. Lost a leg in America under Lord Corn- wallis, detirout of emigrating toN. America. Tenanti on Lord CUfden'a ettate,daiirouaof emigrating. Detirout of proceeding to North America. Ditto. Detirout of emigrating to U. Canada. Ditto. Detirous of emigrating to North America. Ditto. Ditto. - - Ditto. - - Ditto. - - Ditto. SELECT COMMITTCB ON EMIGRATION :— 1827. 4ti come Mttlen in >f following their ling, ii poMctied lie United States o the adTantage* desirous of pro- l^orth America. if Ireland, i* de- , where hii three iorth America. North America, lb manufactory. U. Canada, or nder Lord Corn- to N. America. estate, deiirottt of North America. North America. DAT£ AppUnllen. 1816: Jul/ 13. «7- 18. •1. 30. 31. August I. 3- 7- 8. 16. so. Sept 9. 8. 10. II- »7. ai. ai. 41. as- as- «5. 550. Abstractt of IRISH PETITIONS aad MBMORIALS-cwKmim/. PLACE of Rriidcnct. Dncfiptiou. Nambtr at FAHaV. KirkntillooB Cork Longford Leitrim Dublin Haltioglass Longford Mellick Queen's co. Belfast Cork Moy Kerry Atlilone Kilkenny Tyrone Longford Gowran Tipperary Omagh Omagh Cork Longford Billjingfntd Dublin Graniurd manufkc- turers. builder Chelsea pensioner. late late q' mas' of 8th dragoons. ttcooper Chelsea pensioner. lieut, late 3d vet". ensign half pay. half pay pens' of 31st reg". pensioner lieutenant half pay. Ute98thK^ cnpt. late Westmeath militia. watchmaker lite 89th foot paupers late 1st foot. late seaman lale 70th icg' late 60th re|< pensioner oifjadreg*. SUBJECT of APPLICATlbN. certain heads of fiunilies. Ssons, several daa£ ^ large family ditto 3sons wife, 4 sons, a daug" wife, a children - PnqriDg asMstance on their behalf to eoii* grate. DeiinMia of emigrating to Canada. Ditto. Ditto. Requesting to know what land would be granted to him on emigrating to Canada. Desirous of emigrating to U. Canada. Ditto. Having already obtained a grant of 500 acres in Canada, prays to be conveyed there free of expense. Having applied to Mr. Robinson in 1835 on the subject of Emigration, but, from the lateness of the applica- tion, in vain ; now prays that he may be auisted, either tnis or any subsequent year, to emigrate. ^ - -I Possessing capital of £. 300. is desirous of knowing what land would be granted to him in New South Wales or Van Diemen's Land. Requesting grant of land in North America Ditto. Desirous of emigrating to Canada. - . - - - - Ditto. Would emigrate to N. America, if he could obtain land sufficient to induce a few workmen to accompany him. Desirous of emigrating to U. Canada. Requesting grant of land near Kingston, North America, for the purpose of manufac turing salt. wife, 3 children - wife, 7 children 6 children family - wife, 9 sons, a daug* wife, 3 children wife, 6 children 6 wives and fiunilies family wife, 9 children wi&,4M>ns fiunily Desirous of emigrating to U. Cauada. Ditto. Diuo. Diuo. Ditto. Served in the Amerii an war under General Drummond; is desirous of emigrating to Queens- town in M. America, where his friends reside. Possessed of £. 100 ; desirous to know what encouragement is given to Emigration. Requesting information as to Emigration. Desirous of proceeding to North America. Ditto. Ditto. . . - . - Ditto. .... - DiUo^ 3P3 486 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE AlMtracU of IRISH PETITIONS and MEMORIALS— coHdntwrf. I iM ■■ DATE of iIm Applluttoik l8a6: Sept. 96. October a. 7. 7- «4. 91. 93. 98. Not. C. 16- 18. 33. 98. 30. Dee. 13. 91. 98. 29. 1897: Jon. 1, 7- «4- 15. 15. 16. PLACE of Retldcnct. DcKrlpllMi. Number of FAMILY. Rotcrea Sligo Cunm StratharcD Donegal Meath TyroM Kerry Maybole Tipperary Glaiiclougli Cutlecomiell Athlone Tarbert - Clare • Maybole Monoghan Kerry - Moate - Mount- mellick. Tamlaght Weitport Frome • Omagh, CO. Tyrone. CO. Kil- kenny. Tarbut, Kerry. CO. Tip- perary. m Fintona, Tyrone. Ballymote pensioner nail ma- nufacturer. late 97th weavers paupers pensioner i09d reg*. late Royal Artillery. yeomen manufac- turers. pensionw Hcttb UUitia late Royal ArtiUery. Itte jeonnnrjr l*te60Uirag' weavers pauper old soldier pensioner paupers Bgricultttrist paupers pensioner, 49d reg*. pensioner, 99th reg«. widow mechanics SUBJECT or APPUCATION, 1 son, 6 daughter* wife, 9 children - 95 families - 10 persons - wife, 9 children - wife,4sons,idaug' 10 children - 6 children - 1 1 in family 8 in family • 5 sons, 3 daughters 5 children - wife, 4 sons, 1 daug' 3 children • wife, 5 children • wite, 9 children • 30 families - 39 heads of families wife, 4 sons, 9 dau'* 5 sons, 6 daughters Desirous of proceeding to North America. Ditto. Serred in Spain and America; is desirous of settling in North America. Praying assistance to emigrate to U. Canada. - Ditto. ■ Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Desirous of emigrating to U. Canada. Ditto - to N. America. Ditto. Ditto. Desirous of emigrating to U. Canada. ■ - Ditto. ■ • Ditto - - N. America. - • Ditto. ■ - Ditto - - U.Canada. ■ • Ditto. • - Ditto. On behalf of his parishioners, requesting assistance to enable them to emigrate. Praying assistance to emigrate to America. Applies on behalf of certain distressed individuals of Frome, wno are desirous of emigrating to Canada, Van Diemen!s Land, or to any of H. M. foreign possessions. lensioner oi'8gthreK*' late cor^ 1 3th reg*. magistrate for Sligo. wife & 3 children 1 son & 1 daughter Desirous of emigrating to British North America. Desirous of being sent to the Canadas, Nova Scotia or New Brunswick. Applies on behalf of her children, for a free passage to the British settlements in North America, as they have not the means of defraying it. Desirous of emigrating to North America, and requesting to be informed if there are any free vessels to that country in the spring. wives & 4 children each. Request free passage to British America. Applies on behalf of aperson of respectability desirous of emigrating to Canada, and begs to know if any encouragement is given by Government. SELECT COMMITTEB ON EMIGRATION :— 1837. 4*7 lATIOH. North America. rica ; ■* dctiroM* of ^tetoU.Cuad*. U. Canada. N. Anwrica. to U. Canada. N. Anwrica. U.Canada. ithionen, reqvetting to emigrate. ligrate to America. )f certain distretted emigrating to Canada, reign potaeuions. Iig to Britiih North to the Canadai, Nova |ier children, for a free America, at they have Ig to North America, brmed if there are any Iry in the spring. lu Britiih America. enon of retpeclability eg! to know if any DATE of lb* AppUnllaa. 18171 Jaa.i7> 18. so. as. «5- s6. 87. 38. 31. 31* Feb. 1. Abatracu of IRISH PETITIONS and MEMORIALS -coiKiniMrf. PLACE or Rotideiwe. FermoT, CO. Cork. CO. Ferma- nagh. Newtown* harry. Omagh Deerpark, CO. Carlow, CO. Cavan Arva, CO. Cavan. CO. Carlow Fintona, co.'I'yrone. Dntcriplian. Nonbtf of FAMILY. SUBJECT of APPUCATION. Deairoiu of settling in Upper Canada, and requetU the awistance of Government to further hi* views. He lini had considerable experience in farming and gardening, and has likewise a mechanical turn of mind. Serjeant in yeomanry corps. Chelsea pensioner from 4](l ic|. yeoman discharged from 99*reg«. pensioner from 44th reg«. pensioner from 7th sappers and miners. wife and 4 sons - wife and 4 children wife and 3 sons • Requesting a free passage to any of the British settlements in North America, for himself and fiunily. Purposes to emigrate to British America, and requests to know upon what term? Government would let him have 100 acres of land. Applies for a free passage for himself and lily, to " ~ ■ ■ ■ family, America. the British settlements in North Athlone pensioner lirom 3latreg* Athlone Mount Mellick. CO. Kil- kenny. Bere Island, Cork. Granard Roscrea He is a protestant, and applies, for himself and two other protestant families desirous of emigrating to Upper Canada, to know what encouragement Government would give, and whether they might obtain a lot of land gratis. large family - • I Understands that Government make grants of land to discharged soldiers, and prays for a free passage t9 British N. America for self and family. large family ' family Proposes to settle in Upper Canada, and re- quests instructions how he is to draw for his pension on his arrival. Applies for a grant 6f land in the British Nortn American settlements. Begs to be informed if there is a free passage found for pensioners to British North America, or New South Wales, ana whether grants of land are made to such persons in either colony. pensioner from 14th I* dragoons. late serj* maj* in a 1st reg' 1* dragoons, farmer pensioner from Long ford militu. Navan, CO. Meath. Oookstown Tipperary wife and 5 children 4 sons k 4 daughters wife and 9 children family . • . wife and 8 children Requests a passafte for himself and family to British North America. Wishes to emigrate with his family to British North America, and requests instructions how to act. Prays the assistance of Government to enable him to settle with his fiunily in British North America. Is prepared to emigrate to the British American Colonies, and wishes to know the views of Go- vernment as to granting aid to settlers. Is anxious to settle in anv part of British North America, and solicits the aid of Govern- ment to carry his wishes into eSbct. wife and 9 children Requests a free passage for himself and family to the British settlements in North America, and any other en- couragement that may be given to pensioners. -I Begs to be informed ifGovemment have it in contemplation to encourage eAiigration to the Canadas, as there are numbers of persons in that quarter desirous of proceeding thither, if free passages are granted. pensioner from7i>tiegf. yeoman limubUfpoj, loie 99th irg'. wife and 4 sons • wife and 9 children fiimily . • • 3P4 Requests a free passage to British America for himself and famdy. . . . . Ditto. Solicits a free passage, and grant of land la Canada. M .ij 4n APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OV THE AbMTMtt of IRISH PETZT10N8 ud MEMORIALS— «ni/mn«4. •"""-^ Longford pensioner from 68th reg<. wife and 1 child - • Requests a free passage to British America for liimsHf and family, or otherwise to Van Diemen's Land. «4- Atblone pensioner wife and 5 children Hu received an answer to his application for from a free passage to British N. America, suting that none was given ; and now roquesU 3 yeors advance of his pension, to enable him to 31st reg'. defray his passag e. *5> Mount • • M . • • RequesU an answer to an application on be- halfof her uncle, William Moss, late of the 18th i Melliclc. «**.. light dragoons. - 15. Atblone pensioner wife, and 4 sons and Wishes to settle, with his family, in British from a daughters. North America, and applies for instructions ' 45lh foot and aid. >.,; '4. Longford late of the 63d reg'. wife and 1 child - enable him to emigrate to any of tlie Briiisli settlements iu America; he has no pension, • and is unable to defray his passage. i6. Cookttown yeoman wife and 5 children Prays for a free passage to any of His Ma- jesty's settlemenU. k DATE PLACE Number oflhe or DtMrlplien. or SUBJECT of Iho APPLICATION. Applietliuu. B«tidrnc(. FAMILY. 1897: Feb. family Rcauests a free passage to British America, with the permiuion to settle where he pleases. ment. • ' otherwise he will psgr his own. a. Portadown • • • • .... Requests information u to the quantity of • land granted in Canada to emigrants with a capital of abo 1. and whether any other encouragement is held out. 3- Killenaule paupers • large families Beg to be sent out to Canada, or New South Wales. 4- Moye, CO. Tyrone. paupA ... wife and • children Re^uesU a free passage to British North America. - Carlow regiment. ditte . • - Ditto. 5. Dublin Cornet h. p. royal waggon train. wife and 7 children Prays for aid to enable him to proceed as ■ settler to North America. 7. Baltin|lui late lerj. Baltinglass ycumanry cavalry. . Ditto • for himself and others, labourers and mechanics, in that part of the country. 8. Rosorea pensioner C (laughters and 1 ton. Solicits a free passage for himself and family to British North America. - Clough .... wife and 5 children Requests a free pasAge to the British Am*, rican Settlements. 10. Monaghan late soldier in 49th and 37th regiments. .... • - - Ditto, for himself and two others. - Hagberalbit late private 31st regi. ment. family ' • • Ditto, for himself and family. 10. Drumlana pauper ... wife, 3 sons, and 5 daughters. Requests a free passage to the British Ame- rican Settlements, for hunself and family. 10. Ditto ditto . wife, 4^ons, and 1 daughter. Ditto. I'j. Clonmell agricultural labourer family, 6 in number Applies for encouragement to enable him to settle with his family in one of the British N. A. colonies. 13. Ditto ditto . • family, g in number Ditto. la. Dungannon pensioner firom 7gth regiment. family - Applies for a free passage to North America. 13. Portadown pauper ... . . . « ----- Ditto. >3. Capagolan half.pay officer in Tip. peraiy militia. wife and 6 children RequMU a grant of land in Canada. ^ ^3- Navan pensioner from 31st wife, 3 sons, and Requcsu encouragement to emigrate to regiment. 3 ddhghters. British North America. 13. Klilaihee large families Ditto. •"!' Clough pensioner family . - . * Ditto. Killisandra pensioner from 81st regiment. wife, and 3 children Ditto. '5- Newport pauper . - - large family - Solicits the aid of Government to enable liim- self and family to emigrate to Upper Canada. Clough, pauper - , - . family of nme Applies for a ft«e passage for himself and family, to the British American settlements. CO., Down. 15. Mdunitrath pensioner from 50th wife, 4 sons, and ..... Ditto - and grant of land. - regiment. 4 daughters. CInugh, pauper . 4 - family of 7 persons Solicits the means of emigrating to the CO. Down. British N. A. settlements. *■:* Vi% l» 550- 3Q I APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE AbUnMta of IBIIH FETITI0N8 u4 MEMORIALg-cimMmiW. t: DATE of lb* AppUoiilou. 1817: ' April g. 13. >4< i*" V' * #"• 15. 16. 4. Afe*',". fUCE of lUildcaef. Gramme, Bwlry Bay, Palliigraan Kittfttown Ballymabop RoiCfM dough, CO. Down. Abbeyleix FirlMne, Kiog't CO. Cookitovn Rathkoid* Abbeyieix Moy - - Five Mile Town. Clough • D» - - CtUncoBlith DtKriplion. Itboiiriog Uimn formerlr In Limerick mUitia. peniiener Qitt regt. DowkoiMon. (onurly in the Navy CbebM penaiwwr, 35th regt. pensioner 8th regt. blackemith ^lerjeanlmtjor in the yeomanry. «Ht-pen(ioner • D* . ifth drag' liuen weaver • lately in tlie Army • D* in the yeomanry pentioner Palliibeg Palliigreane lloscemrooD out-pemioner 41 tt regiment. UDiier sheriff, Roi- connon. Niabtr of FAMILY. 8 cliildren • 3 headf uf familiet, cwubling of 17 pcnou, SUBJECT of ilM APPUCATION. wife and children • Soliciu for encouragement to emigrate to British America, and prayi for Information. a large family • Appliei for aMlttanoe to Mitle in Britiih America, aa he caaaol lupport hia hmlly. 3 ions • Solicits to be Mnt to Canada, at they cannot get employment. Prayi for a certificate of recommendation to, the Governor of Canada, in order that he may •migrate. Pravs for a grant of land and free paiMgo for himMlf and family to Britiih America. Solicit for inttruotions relative to embarka- tion for Britiih ^nierlca, at they perceive by tiie public newipaperi that the Aindi are open for the encou< ragement of emiaration from the United Kingdom, and con* Nquently they hold themselvee in readineu. Prayi for information whatber Government will aavance him any money, to enable liim to emigrate to Brltbh America, which he will re- pay fVom hia penaion. family of 10 penoni Prayi for a free paiaage and grant of land in Britiih America, in order to prevent bimielf and family from fiuniihing. wifeand tochildren Prayi for a free paiaage for himaelf and family to any of the Britiih lettlementi, aa some of hit children are mechanici, who by good conduct and induitry in the colonies will become respectwle members of society, and will get secu- rity for their honesty. wife and 5 children Applies for free passage to St. John's, New Brunswick. Wishes to emigrate to British America, and applies for information whether Government will advance any monev to peniloners to enable them to subsist and pay their pass^, and also where the peniiuner can be received in Briiish America. wife, 3 sons, and 1 daughter. has a family wife and 5 childred wife and 3 children wife and 9 uhlldren Applies for free passage to British America. Applies for free passage to Britisli America. D^ •• and to know if he can in Britah America. rece^Ua ,, AppUea f St. Jokn'i, New tiih America, and will advance tiny tiltt and pay their received m Britiih > Britith America. ) Britisli America. to know if he can I America. 9 Britiah America. pM aigned by the yd to emigrate to :ea, that tnose per- 'baiBgiantout thi« itery and lufTerings ime the Expedition miiiea have applied nritiali America, as lofiupport or pro- ifomed, whether if >idual. Government carrying titii object SELECT COMMITTSE OK EMIGIUTIOIf :— 1I37. #S Ahrtrwu tt IRISH PETITIONS aikl MRMOMIALg wmiaairf. DA IK Wriw AppllcMlMI. 18*71 April 9. 11. »4- li. >7- «4- le. 18. 19. FLACI Rattdtne*. ThoaaoMi, ao. Clare. Dublin • D* - . Drumina - Coolutown Tarbert • Ballibay • Moy . Flurry Bridge. Thurlea Moy . Clough Dui Col incanno oliega. •3. Moy ■ Blackwater- town. Charlemont Garriwn. Coolutown Cookttown Charlemont May Chariemoot ';*'■ Cnunlca Hill Limaiick CoakUown BdfiMt TSiifaHMte DtaHflha. formerly an oflcer of yeomanry. peniioner (wrjeant Stii regiment.) artiian • . . linen weaver ou^peniioncr • labourer • • . yeoman • • • weaver, lately in 54th regiment. FAMILY. wife and 5 children wife and 7 children 7 children - 6 children • wife and s children family of 9 • wife and 1 child •UBJICT •>! iha APIOICATION. Vtatat that ho applie* wiiii (he conwnl of 300 penoni, who have iotruited him ii> memorial un their part for aNitiaaca to a«igruto to Drititli America. It anxioua to emigrate to Briliih America, if ancouragod by Uovenimeat. Appllei for a free iiaMage for himt«ir and family to Britith Anuirica. Ap|iliH for a tmall grant of land in Dritiih America. Appliaa for a free pottage to Britith America. D* Withct to emigrate with hit fkmily to Britith America, nnd appllei for information. . Applicant ttatet that lio told hit property in order to embark witn tho vmigraiilt that wcru tent (i\it by Government, bat that the pooplv were all on liourd, and that he wot too late ; and prayt that he may be tent at a tattler to Britith America. lately in the yeomanry ichoalmHter - weaver, late of the militia. linen weaver • D* - and lately in the yeomanry. linen weaver • D'andlMelriBthe ye«fpanry. D*' and formerly in the royal art'. weaver . • • land tteward 5 boyi and 3 girit - family of 5 • family of 1 3 pertont wife and 6 children wife and 1 ton pennoner • #id*w . out-pantimwr, 8gth re- giBieiit* wife, mother, and 3 children. wife and 6 children father, wife, and 7 children. wifo and 5 children wife, 4 lont, and 4 daughter!. ^ife and 4 children wife and 3 children wife and a children wife, 4 Bont, a dangb- ten. Withei to emigrate to Britith America, and appliet for atiittance and informotion. Cannot get employment, and ticgt ho may be tent with hit family to Britith America. Withei to emigrate to Britith America, and appliet for informatlbn. Appliet for otiiitanec to emigrate to Britiih America. Petitiont to be Mnt out at an emigrant tehool- matter to Canada ; and ot proof uf being pro- perly qualified, incloict a uocumeiit which he received from Lord D'Cliflbrd upon the tubject. Prayt for a free patiage to Ilriliih America for himielf and family, with other advontagei. D» D» Prayt for free patMge to Britith America, and enclotet certificate of good conduct. Prayt for free patiage to Britith America. D» 6 loni and 4 daugh- ter!. wife and child Q4 Appliea, through the Biihop of Limerick, for a free pauage for himielf and family to Britiih America, and enclotet a recommendation from a number of magiitratet of the co. Limerick. Requettt to know if he can obtain a grant of land in Britith America. Prayt for a free patiage for hertelf and family to Britiih America, u ue it in great diitreii. #■ Il ''i ,. I M. APPENDIX TO THIKD REPORT OP THE Abitraeu of IRI8H PETITIONS and MRMURIAL»-f*Mliii«M/. DA1K PtiCB NuMbw of Ik* AppllnUiw. at Coohttown OtwriiiilM. rAMILY. •UWBCT *l Ik* APPUCATION. Mv.fl?. foot. lata of ad foot. • • • • Wisbaa to amigrau to British America. . Litbuni • • • • Ditto. at. Maaharardi BtilllMmtk Coolutoirn - 18th light dragoona paniionar, 97th reg* • d* Outhragimant or foot. d* • - . a small fomlly 3 ioni Ic 1 daughter Applies for iVeo passage, and other adran- tages. - - - . . Ditto. • • ■ . > f)llln 31. ■ ruing iMuiiy * . • . • • A/IHV. Wishes to know if there be a grant of land in Rriiish America. u • ■ " " Narnijr, CO. Klldtre. lata of oglh ragimant wife and 3 children Wishes to emigrate, and from his kiioMledue of the country, thinks ho could repay (lie eipenae*. \ Ballinmora labourar ■ • . wife • • • Appliea for a firaa passngo to British .\m(-rica. Limtrlck Mobill Wishes to emigrate, if encouraged. Ditto. - out- paniionar from Chaliea. • • ■ ■ AprUi. Athlon* lata 6ad regiment • • • - Solicits for a paasport to North America. fl. Donybroolc peniioner, 37th foot, and uurdwainer. wife and 3 children Applies fur free paasage for himself and family, in order that he may become a settler in British America. 1. Dungannon late royal artillery - ditto Wishes to proceed with his family to Can da, and applies for a grant of land. - Kilbeggan labourera aheadsoffamiliea, coniuting uf i] pcnoiu. Wish to emigrate to British America. 3 Muy pennioner; by trade a cooper. wife and children Applies for a free passage to British America, as he cannot procure the necessarvn of life. '.3. Dromor peniJoner 6 jtb foot - family of 5 children Wiahes to emigrate to Upper Canada, and applies for a free passage, &c. and will cause his sons to 1)0 enrolled in the militia. $• Dublin gardener - Wishes to emigrate to British America. ' - Stradballj « • • • hu a family D* - • and for fVea passage, in order to be saved Oom dying from actual want. - - late of loiat regiment wife and a clul len Appliea for free passage to British America. k Mount Loftui. blackiffiith fother ami nother, wife and 4 children. D* - . understands every art connected with the trade of • amitb, and con be recom> mended. •A _ Rathdrum yeoman '• • • wile and a children Applies for • grant of land in Canada, and free passage. 3. Cootehill late gth dragoona himself and family D* D». MohiU former and linen wearer DO family Wishes to emigrate to British America; is young; has a good uanstitution, and can be strongly recommended ; applies fur encourage- ment, m consequence of tlie depressed state of the linen manutacture. • Ma^uirea Bndge. peniioner, /oyal ar- tillery. wife and 6 children Applies for free passage for himself and fami y, and other privileges proposed to out. pensioners. - Drotnore pemioner, 3d battalion .60th foot. family of 7 children Wishes to emigrkio i) ji.tiat: .imerica with his family. • 1. Paraon'a Towu. aeij' in royal engineera family of 7 - Sutes, that he ' 1' .aratu 14 Canada at his own e.vpense, if possible, and appliea for a grant of land. •;'■', ,, - Stii-'onc out-pensioner R. H. Chelsea. .... States, that there Ire a number of pensioners anxious to emigrate to Canada. -';.'■ Caatic , Bcllinghaai : i O" . 9//. per day - has a l°xge family • Anxious to emigrate withhia family to Canada, and applies fii^r assiatance. SELECT COMMirri^£ ON lUbllGUATION :— 1817. 4fS AlMlririt oriHIMH PBTITIONH *n4 MKVfnRIAI.N-riNrtiiiii^. nd oUmt tdvM- orth Am*rica. for himicir and ' become n icttler ) Dritiih Amcricu, ntar^ti of life. iper Canada, and and will cuuM hii tia. ivh America. Dritiih America. iry art connected can be recom- d in Canada, and kilh America; ii lion, and can be iet for encourage- [lepreMcd itate of for himielf and proposed to out- .imerica with III! i» Canada at , and applies for iber of pent ioners u. family to Canada, OATI •f Ik* April 5. PUCK •r RtiMwi*. (I. 8. 10. II. 16. «7. Stroketlown D«Mripiin< Ball/mahon Clonei Oublin yeoman in ilin oavnlrTc and pariih clirk nf HtrokoMown church. out-p«Miunar, 39th foot. pefliioner, j8th foot penaioner, now a baker Noakti of FAMILY. atJBjcrr uf ih* Ari'i.icATioN. wife, .5 iont, and ititughteri. {lenone peniioner Gyrecourt Cookitown Belfait lately in the militia, now a weaver. peniioner, agth foot out-pen«ionerp, Chelien Ennifcorthy pentioner, 73d fool - "nily of 7 pi'iiuns hu a flimily wID), but no children • lOM wife and s children wife and fiunily ti families Banagher Dallinotloe Killeavey, CO. Arniigli, •ppllcattiiii rrom Nowry. Baltinglao Nenogb painter and gloaier pensioner, batt*. » farmer tarroer tath vet* lately a lieutenant in the 50th. wife and 1 son wife, 3 sons, and a daughters. Applies fur aid to emigrate with hit family in New hruniwick his chill' support j run get certiHcsIrt ut' 9»*<l)«afrei' paungc tia, British America, and how hsslmll apjr'y lor ik Applicant flnilt hm ppniion not siifflc nt to support Ilia family, aniJ 'n/nliea lo pruccpd lo British Amiiiiii; he is anxioua i» know what allowaiKW is given to discharged aolUicrs. Wlnhes to emigrate to (ji>.:bcc ito join his Mends, and follow his tradti. Withes to go to DriiixN VnwrioH -. and states, that I a penaioncrt an* iinxii)u.4 to emigruta also, if encouriigcd, and rr'jiiuais iiMurmatioii upon the subject. Applirs for a free pnsnage to Britith America, and incloses a t«atiinui)ittl at gnod character, and recommendation lr«am thu vicar ol' his pariah. Applies for a IVce pas ,ge for liimself aud family to British America. Applicants ask for a free iumfage fur them- aelvca niid families to British \iii(.i'icii, as they cannot get employment, and '>eir pensions will not support their families. Applies for a letter of induliionce, in order that ne may present it to the Gov- rnor of Lower Canada upon his arrival. Intends to emigrate to Upper Canada, and begs to know if he can get a free pu >m^e, or any cncuurogement to persons of his d scription. Wishes to emigrate to British A .ncrica, and implores directions how he shall proceed. Requests that he and his family n. ay be no- cepteil amongst others who may be s' 'it out by Government to British America, as I 4- ■ H- r' 16. i . '7- »7- »7. l8z6: Nov. 3. 1837: Jan. 6. Feb. 1. ' 16. i, , 17. March 8. • ' . 12. 30. PLACE of Reiidence. Kilcooly Abbey. BtlljrihumoD Comolin, co.Wexford. R«UifrieUnd Goretbridgc MuUingar DungannoD Myshall, CO. Carlow. Rathdrum Six Mile 3ridge, cu. Clare. Stradbally, Queen'g co. Deicriptioa. farmen and labourers ichoolmaater • late 8th regiment peniioaer tVom 103d regiment. yeoman • carpenter farmer pensioner from 74th regiment. '7- 18. Ballymahon Dublin Cootehill Virginia Athlone Brookborough Belfast Ballylongford Ballintaggen D* D» Lisbum Grauard Monaghan Grange Castle- bellingham. late seaman solicitor labourer - pensioner, R, Meath Militia. pensioner from 11th foot. paupers • • • ensign Gibbt» 8th Number of FAUILY. families wife - fiimily of 9 - 3 sons and 1 daugh' wife, and 1 o children wife, and a children wife, and 5 children SUBJECT or the APPLICATION. Prays for encouragement to enable to him emigrate. Applies in their behalf for aid to enable them to emigrate to Canada. Desirous of emigrating to North America. Requests to be informed how he is to get a grant of land in North America. Prays for a free pauage to British North America. ..... Ditto - to Canada. Prays for assistance towards emigration. Prays for a free passage, and grant of land in British America. Requests a free passage for himself and family, and his father-in-law and son-in-law, to British America. Solicits a free paskage to Halifiix, N. Scotia, and to be allowea to draw his pension there. Requests free passage to Upper Canada. Requests a grant of land in British America; will pay his own passage. 7 sons and 3 daugh" Applies on behalf of a widow and 10 chil- dren, for a grant of land, and assistance from Government, to emigrate to Canada. This family brought up to agricultural pursuits, and propose to take 3 or 4 workmen to Canada. Ottiirs pecuniary aid in addition to what may be afforded by Government. ensign < It. V. B». labourer * d* d» late 3 7th foot • pensioners pensioner, 6th dra goons. out-pensioner, ordnance pensioner from 8th hot. wife and 4 children wife and 5 children wife and 3 children 3 heads of families, with 4 children each. wife and 8' children wife, 1 son, 3 daughters. no family wife, 1 male, 1 fe- male child. large family - 5 heads of fami- lies, 30 person^ . 5 sons, 3 daughters wife and 3 children wife and 7 children Applies for a free passage, and assistance to emigrate to Canada. Prays for a free passage to the British American Colonies. - - Ditto - - and rations. Requests assistance to emigrate. Applies for instruction, in order to be put in possession of grant of land for himself & sons. Wishes to proceed to Canada. For assistance to proceed to British America. Ditto. - • - - . Ditto. Requests free passage to British America. Pray for assistance to emigrate to Canada. Requests free passage, and grant of land in Upper Canada« Prays for free passage to British America. b* to be taken out to British America. . noN. enable to him aid to enable rth America. he h to get Britiih Nortli nada. emigration, grant of land br himself and d «on-in-law, to lifox, N. Scotia, ension there. per Canada. British America; dow and lo chil- I Government, to > to agricultural inen to Canada. y be afforded by and auistance to ! to the British (rate. >rder to be put in r himself & sons. da. > British America. iritish America, rate to Canada. grant of land in Iritish America, riiish America. SELECT COMMITTBC ON fiMIG RATION :— 1827. 49» Abatnwu of IRISH PETITIONS and MEMORiALS~e' giment of foot. •hoemalcer D* and weaver linen weaver, lately a yeoman. out-pensioner - •olicitor • . • schoolmaster Number of FAMILY. wife and 3 children wife and 5 children wife, 9 sons, and 5 daughters. family of 7 persons wife and child wife and 6 children out-pensioner - formerly in the militia, now a pauper. pensioner sd regi- ment foot. pensioner shoemcker & white- smith, and lately in the yeomanry. SUBJECT of tiM AFPLICAHON. t Applies for a free passage to. British Ameriep, and a grant of land. Applies for a flee passage to British America. D« ..... D* and encloses certificate (from the Archdeacon of Clonfert) that peti* tioner is a fit object for the boon. Applies for a firee passage to British America. D* D» wife and 5 children Applies for instructions how he shall receive his pension at Quebec. a young family • States that the distress of the country is so great, that he wishes to emigrate to Canada, and applies for a grant of land. wife and 5 children Applies on behalf of himself and three heads of families, for the benefits of emigration to British America, and requests the fullest information. Requests for information upon the subject of emigration to British America. Applies for a free passage for liimself and family to British America. Applies on behalf of himself and a number of other persons, whether there be any chance of getting a free passage to British America ihif season, as they are In a state of starvation, and would gladly repay the expense of their emi- gration as soon after their landing as pitssible. Requests information on behalf of a number of farmers and tradesmen, who wish to settle in Canada. Prays that he and family may be sent as emi- grants to British America. Requests to know if he can have a free pas- sage to New Brunswick. Prays that he and his family may be taken free of expense to British America. Is anxious to emigrate with his family to British America, and prays for information. Pray for assistance to emigrate to Canada. 3 daughters - wife and 8 children wife and 8 children 9 heads of families Applicant states that he has been applied to by a number of poor mhabitants, principally labourers, farmers and weavers (who wish to emigrate to British America), to make their wishes known to Government, as their misery and wretchedness is too great to contemplate. I Applies on the part of a number of poor persons to know whether any allocation of lands and immediate support will be granted by Government, In British America, to Emigrants; and states that the parties Intending to emigrate are active young people, not overbortliened with large families, and possessing little property beyond the means of paying for their passage ; and although provisions are in abundance and cheap, still the distress is very intense, many active labourers not receiving one shilling for their labour since last Christmas. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION :-i8<7. 497 noN. ritith Americp, ritiih America. I certificate Pert) that peti- ritish Ameriea. le shall receive i country if lo ite to Canada, and three heads tritish America, n the subject of for himself and snd n number of f getting a free are in a state of le of their emi- lialf ofanumber wish to settle in f be sent as emi- liave a free pas- ly may be taken irica. h his family to information. Ite to Canada. been applied to bourers, farmers sh America), to their misery and number of poor Is and immediate tish America, to ding to emigrate th large families, IS of paying for abundance and active labourers last Christinas. Abatracta of IRISH PETITIONS and MEMORIALS— coirfinun/. DATK oTtk* AppUcslian. 18*7: Apr. «3. 98. May I. 11. PIJICE Boidtnce. Deictiplkiii. 1- 8. Killyman Glebe. M'MeUick Golden PaUas Grean. Limerick Curickmicroii Fermuy Swanlinbar Bsllybravo Enniskillen Stcmmtown Longford Cahir Cashtl Kilrea Number of FABOLY. 8UBIECT of lilt APPLICA110N. a penoni - - Applieanta state that thei.' father was a Major in the Army, but that as they have not either money or interest, to procure employ- ment or to enter into business, they have turned their thoughts upon emigrating to Canada as settlers; and having received a good education and also oossesiing a knowledge of agriculture, they request to be employed in any manner e >onec*ed with emigration to Canada. out-pensioner farmer out-pensioner 3 familiea II persons lately an amourer in the Navy. lieutenant half-pay 35th lately a soldier, but has no pension. weaver and in police pensioner 77th foot - late a soldier in the royal artillery. wife, 4 sons, and a daughters. wife, 4 sons, and 3 daughters. family consists of 3 parsons. 10 persons • wife and 4 children wife and a children wife and 4 children 11 persons - wife and 1 son 2 heads of familiea Applicant requests a free passage himself and wife, and auo for his brother's family, to Canada. * Prays for a free passage to Canada, where his friends reside. Applies for a free passage to Canada, and a grant of land. Prays that he may be granted a free passage for himself and family to Canada, in order that he may escape from the persecution of the Rockites and Whiteboys. Prays for a free passage to Canada. D* D« ' ; D" States that several poor persons wish to emigrate with applicant to Canada, and applies for encouragement and assistance. Applies for a free passage to Canada, and encloses certificate of good character, D' - - - D« D* D« D" D* 1807: »3. _ Blackwater Town, Co. AmiSfli. 14- Flair; Bridge, Co. Loath. iZ. Banliy 33. 93. Moy, Co.Tyro)ie. Newry - Ardfaman, Co.Tipp«i«ry. - Ctorlemont pensioner, per day. at 6. ; a few superior work- men, at a scarce kind of work which few can procure, make from 51. to 6t. per week. At present their distress is such that they cannot pay either their debts or rents, and are now completely in the power of their landlords ; it is with the greatest difficulty the best workmen can procure subsistence for their families ; and they can produce instances of those who lately died here in a state of starvation. Applicants, to the number of 200 families, earnestly pray that Government may decide in their favour. 3 R 2 590 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE ABSTRACTS Of all Petitions «nd Memobials received at the Colonial Department, from Persona desironi of Emigrating from the United Kingdom. 3— SCOTCH APPUCANT8. ; 1} 1 DATE of the Application! i8t6: June 5. 6. - ".;'■■■ 9- . 18. ■ 16. July IS- Aug. s6. 39- Sept. 4. 6. 6. 9- ^ 9- 14. ai. 91. 31. 83- 93- 25. Sfi. 30. Oct. 4. PLACE of BHUcnce. Glasgow Pauley Uteat and Barm. Paisley Hebrides Pauley Aberdeen Glasgow Springburn Rutherglen Roibiirghihire Glasgow Glasgow Glasgow DcMription. Niimb«r of FAMILY. paupers paupers Chelfwt Pcd" I*te 5tli Dg° Giiudi. paupers muufacturen old soldier weavers weavers weavers fermer weavers weavers weavers various trades. weavers 140 persons 50 heads of families 4 to 500 inhabitants 300 persons 100 heads of fanai' lies. wife 343 ftmilies many families 100 - d* .- wife, 6 children ' 150 families many families 350 femilies 50 families 50 150 d* d" 300 persons Ards Glasgow presbjrter' minister. manuhctureis 100 families 50 d* - 100 d° - 100 d» - 50 d" - many families 400 persons SUBJECT of APPLICATION. Requesting assistance to emignte to U. Canada. Ditto. Applying, on their behalf, for mewis to join their fnenda, who were assisted to emigrate to Cape Breton in 1817. For assistanc« to emignte to U. Canada. For assistance to emigrate to Cape Breton. . - - Ditto . - . U.Canada. Requesting grant of land in Cauda. Having formed themselves into a society request assistance to emigrate to U. Canada. Ditto. Ditto. Desirous of emigrating to North America, Ditto • - • . to U. Canada. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Praying, on their behalf, for assistance to emigrate (o U. Canada, and to be furnished with implements of husbandry. ----- Ditto. Praying assistance to emigrate to U. Canada, and to be provided with the means of subsistence until the first crops may be gathered. Ditt„. DIttq;. Ditto. Applies on their l>aia]f,end would be desirous of accompanying them, as settlers, to the borders of Lake Erie, N. America. Having received favourable accounU ot C Canadn, would prefer that place for emimtion, and praying asaistance e gathered. ,and would be deiirous settlen, to the border* a. arable accounta ot -{J. It place for emimtion, to acconiplitn their DATE ollhe Appllcatln. iSa6: ■ Oct 13. >4. 18. 19. ■93. «5- 15. 31. Nov. 1. 6. ; 6. 8. »7- 8. 13. S3. Dec. 4. 8. 13. 13. >9- 30. SBLICT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION :-i897. *>« AbamKiU of SCOTCH PETITIONS. and MEMORIALS-«MiMiiMrf. PLACE at RMUmee. Glaigow Balfron Glaigow Paidey Aynhire Olaigow Aynhite Glaigow Paiiley Perth Aynhire Glaigow Hamilton Eait Kilbride. Glaigow DiMTiptiga. paupcra muufcchiren cotton ipinnen, Duubctunn peni' of 15th reg*. weaven weaver! mechanic! late Glen' fenciblei. Niabw of 'AMILY. Ijuuriuhite Glaigow Glaigow Lanark Glaigow Cutle Douflu Glaigow Lanark Breadalbane mtiiufactiiran muiabctiiran peniionen paupen pemioner minuhctaien labourer! 95 peiwMU 119 penena 70 familici 60 penoni 63a penoni 53 fiuniliei wife, 4 children • 43 famOiei 40 fiutiliei wife, 3 wni, and 1 daughter. 37 familiei - 43 familiei - a6o penoM 1 1 perioni - 30 individual! 4,000 head! of fa- miliei. 350 • d* 158 - d» 16s fiuailiet familiei wife, 3 children wife and child fiunil/ SOB;ecT o( APPUCitTIOK, Appliea, on their behalf, for auiitance to emigrate to Canada, and that they may be nro- vidM with the meani of lubiiitence until tneir flnt cropi be gathered. Ditto - on their behalf. Ditto. Ditto. Requeitioe aiiiitance to emigrate, and tend- ing detailed lilt of applicant!. Appliei, on their behalf, for auiitance to enable them to emigrate to U. Canada. Appliei for grant of land in N. America. For auiitance to emigrate to U. Canada. Ditto. ..... Ditto. Praying auiitance to emigrate, in conie- quence of the diitreu of the timei. Appliei, on their behalf, for auiitance to emigrate to U. Canada. ..... Ditto. Deiiroui of emigrating to N. America. Ditto. Appliei, en their behalf, for auiitance, to enable them to emigrate to Van Diemen'i Land. Encloie! a petition to the Houie of Common!, from 4,000 mdividuali, memben of certain Emigration Societiei, praying auiitance to emigrate. Ditto from Clydeidale Emigration Society, for the Hme purpoie. Encloeei three petition!, to the lame pur- port. Endoie petition for the lame purpoie. Praying auiitance to emigrate to America. Having genred in Nqflh America, ii denroui of proceeding there oi a lettler. Praying auiitance to emignte. ... - Ditto. ... - Ditto. 550. 40 headi of familiei | Praying auiitance to emigrate to U. Canada, on condition of repaying to H. M. government, expense ; itating that their petition will be preiented to the Houie of Common! by Lord A. Hamilton, and grayiug auistance to emigrate. familiei - • On behalf of certain labourer!, detiroui of emigmting, 3R 3 m 'I 5M APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE AbitrMU of SCOTCH PETITIONS and MEMORIALS-coniinuet/. DATE ofth* AppUctlioii. 1837: Jan. 4. 19. .(.. , I at. PLACE of RoideiKc. S3. ■r; .; 31. Feb. 3. i H ■ ;!i u 10. M- Paulay Pauley • Glenelg • Aberdeen Paitley WeMern Highland*. Glaigow, andiu vicinity. Paisley DcKrlpiloo. lata Mrj< 94th reg*. laboUlen labeuren cipuiin and ■djuUnt Abeidecnihire ffiililit. labourer* Nnabcr uf rAIULY. iriieaiid4diiMrm looramiliM • fiunilici ftmily B>: •i(, 1 Ml Paisley Kirk6>)Id Bank near Lanark* Hut Kiibircd labourer* weaver* k labourer*. weavers weavers SUBJECT of APPUCATION. 1* daairou* of emigrating to Canada, and I* wiUlng to pay hi* pa**age, provided the lame privilege* were in*ured to him on hi* arrival, which a *erjeant diacharged in that coimtry would b« entitled ta Pray for a free pa(*age to Upper Canada, Olid grant of land on their arrival, with ra> ttOBS, &c. Appjy in behalf of Ihenuelve* and many other familie* in their neighbourhood, for aid in tninsporting themtelvaa to the Britiih North American colonie*. I* anxiou* to join aome fVienda in U. Canada ; ho* *erved in *everal regiment*, and purchaaed all hi* comnii*«ion*; and he wi*he* to know if he can obtain a grant of land according to the rank he hold*. familie* - • Have previously applied to Parliament for a grant of land for sixty nrnilies in U. Canada. Having since read that it would be desirable to establish the cultivation of hemp in that province, they offer themselves as fit persons for such cultivHtion, having been accustomed from their infancy to the raising and preparmg flax in all its branches. 104 heads of families, comprising 550 soul*. 3,586 loub • Are all native* of the wei tern highland*, who have suffered fi'om the introduction of the sheep system into those parts; pray for assistance to enable them to emigrate to the British colo- nies in North America, and undertake to repay any sums advanced for that purpose. Apply in their behalf for the loan of a suf- ficient sura to enable them to emigrate to the British colonies, as the only means by which they can be saved from perishing. 1 30 heads of families Encloses petitions to the House of Lords and to tlie King, fjfom 130 heads of families, comprising 638 souls, under the name of the " Fourth Canadian Agricultural Emigra- tion Society," praying for a free passage to Upper Canada, and the same indulgences on their arrival that have been extended to former emigrants. 100 families families Apply in behalf of these families, associated under the name of the Irish Friendly Emigrant Society, for assistance towards emigration. Applies, in the behalf of the meeting, for aid as above. ipply, in behalf of a Society, for osaistance nable them to emigrate to Canada. to enable 1 M- f.t!) ;ation. to Canada, and It provided the same lim on hit arrival, 1 in tliat country o Uppar Canada, SELECT COMMITTBE ON EMIGRATION :-i837. 50s • uppar arrival, with ra. uelvei and many hbourhood, for aid > dw Briliih North endi in U.Canada; nts, and purchaied ! wifhet to Icnow if d according to the to Parliament for ida. Havidg since the cultivation of fit persons for such ieit infancy to the tern highlands, who luction of the sheep >ray for assistance to the British colo- undertake to repay purpose. the loan of a suf- to emigrate to the ly means by which shing. House of Lords and uprising 6a8 souls, griculturol Emigra- Jpper Cnnada, and been extended to families, associated Friendly Emigrant rds emigration. of the meeting, for cioty, for assistance to Canada. AbstracU of SCOTCH PETITIONS and MEMORIALS-cun/mMfA DATE PLACE Number ) of III* Application. or Rnldencf. DsHriptlon. of FAMILY. SUBJECT uf the APPLICATION. 1 J 1837: Jaa. IB. Arigaig labourers families, in all 61 persons. Applies, in behalf of these families, for the assistance of government ^nablr thcin to emigrate to Canada. 31. Kihnamock paupers - • - families Petition to be granted the means of emi- grating to Chaleur Bay, New Brunswick, 01' elsewhere in that province, and promise to repay any expense incurred on that account. Feb. $• Edinburgh pauper • . • . Prays for aid to enable him to emigrate. iS. Glasgow Ubourers & mechanics B50 families Apply, in behalf of these families, under the name of the Clydesdale Emigration Society, for assistance to enable them to emigrate this Sprins. They will refund any sums advanced tliemfor that object. a6. Lymington labourer • - • wife and 1 child - Requests to be sent out to Canada, and will repay whatever sura is expended in settling himself and family in that country. a6. Glasgow calico printer • wife and g children Solicits a grant of land in Canada. He has been m an extensive wav of business for twenty-five years, but, owing to the commercial distress, now ruined. Has commanded several volunteer regiments, and has some knowledge of agri- culture. Mar.' 3. Dornie Kintail. paupers • aofiuniliea - Applies, in their behalf, for aid to enable them to remove to Canada, as they can get no work, and have nothing but a few potatoes to subsist upon. 3- 7. Berwick Hamilton pensioner from 68th regiment. « wife and 3 children Itequesu a free passage to Upper Canada. Applies, in behalf of the Hamilton Emigra- tion Society, to know what allowance govern- ment will maka to persons emigrating to Upper Canada or New Brunswick, 9- Breadalbane husbandmen - families .Applies fer himself, and a few others in his neighbourhood, for conveyance to U. Canada, whither they wish tn proceed to join some friends and relatives, from whom they receive encou- raging accounts. 9- Paisley families gration Society, American Settlen take, at the expi 3^. io«. Qd. per Apply, in the name of the First Paisley Emi- to be conveyed to, and located in, the British aents, and to be allowed rations, &c. ; and uiider- ration of seven years, to repay, by initolmcnts of uinum, the sums expended on that account. 10. Upper Cotton. family Applies foi^imself and family, who have been accustomed to furminb', for information and en- couragement, to enable them to emigrate ; and will give a bond for the repayment of their passage money and otKcr advances. 13. Paisley labourers families Undertake, in the name of the Irish Friendly Emigrant Society, to repay whatever expense may be incurred by government in settling them in Upper Canada. ~ Paisley labourers & mechanics sixty families Apply for aid to enable them to emigrate, and will give their bonds for the repayment of any sums advanced to them for that purpose. 16. Gatehouse of Fleet. pensioner from royal artillery. wife, 3 sons, and 3 daughters. Requests a free passage to the British N. A. Settlements. i6. Ediaburgh various trades - 11 heads of families, in all, 53 persons. Apply for free passKe, and granU of land in Upper Canada. ' H ! ' 3 R 4 504 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE i, ; 5 ■'■i| •' ! ! ;iilJ'ii \ Aburacu of SCUTCH PETITIONS and MEMOHIALS-- April 3. jPLACE (.r RwldtiKt. DcKrIptloD. /»! 13. 13- Lanark. Kirkfltld Bulk. Abardcen Fort Aufuttui. Paiiley Dunning, Perthihire. KilmanHK'k Kilmarnock Paiiltjr Stirling Edinburgh Dunning Hamilton Leith Kilmainock Glasgow Faialey Aberdeen Tradestown Lanark chiefl/ agricultural labourers. weavers ... • captain and adjutant Aberdeenshire Militia. paupers • Inbouren weavers labourers and pen- sioners. late sGth reg' of foot pensioner from 15th regiment of Foot. shoemaker landowner in Coll in the Hebrides Mumbtr of FAMILY. 31 heads of Ami- lies, inallioBsoula. famillas family families, in all, 338 souls. 130 heads of fa- milies. 5 heads of families, in all, 33 souls. 4 heads of families, in all, 31 persons. family . . - wife and family wife and 3 children. 91IDJKCT or lb* APHLtCATION. Request a free passage, and grant of land in Uppar Canada, with pre* isioos, implaaents fit hiubandry, Ac. Pray for aid to enable them to emigrate to any ofHis Majesty's Colonies in North America. Desirous of jouiing some friends in Upper Canada ; has nerved as a captain in the regular army, nnti wiihes to know if he can obtain a grant of land according to that rank. Pray for aid to enable them to emigrate to Canada. Applies to the Committee on Emioratien, in the name of the " Fourth' Paisley Emigration Society," for assistance to enable them to emigrate to Canada. Petition the House of Commons to rank them in the number of Emigrants to be sent out this year to Canada. Pray to be taken out to any part of British America. Ditto. Requeaii a free passage, ai-'l grant of land in Upper Canada, and to be allowed to draw his pension when there. Petitions the King for a froe passage to the British Settlements in North America; has lonft been out of employment, and is in extreme indigence. Applies in behalf of several thousand souls for aid towards Emigration. He himself last year sent out 300 souls from one of his own islands, and he can now spare 1,500 from his estates, and would be willing to pny, for a limited number of years, the interest tif money expended in their emigration ; tne emigrants themselves afterwards paving it, or an annuity. _Be^s .!■ know what assistance Government will give to persona of the working classea emi- grating to Canada. weaver, late of the 15th regiment of foot • >."■ .'4. MCATION. Hid (rant of tend in ioM, implMMaU^r lem to emigrate to >i in North America. I firienili in Upper iptain in the regular if he can obtaia a that rank. hem to emigrate to !e on EmijratioB, in Paitley Emigration to enable them to )mmontto rank them Is to be tent out thii I any part of Britiih ,aiA grant of land in allowed to draw hi* a froe paaiage to the ilotth America; ha* lent, and i* in extreme everal thouiand (ouli ear tent out 300 louli i* eiUtei, and would ney expended in their onuity. wiitance Government I working claiie* emi> to Canada ; and bega ly and a jrant of land ii deiicription. a* to the quantity of ed of 6oo{. ii entitled ». the Society, for aid to to Chaleur Bay, New to the Britiih North le " Paidey Hibernian Society," for aid to I to Upper Canada. g to Canada. requHt* aitiitance for hat purpoK. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIQRATl n*^i4«^ Ab*lracu of SCOTCH PETITIONS and MBMOItl \ .4«NdW OATB •rtiM AyflllHllM. III7I A|«il lO. 16. •a Mar. 3. April;. rucE of RMidvnco Kilmarnock Poiiley Omnoek Edinburgh GUagow Gloagow DMwlptlim. weaver* formerly a farmer, now amaioa. late in 113d light drag*, now a weaver. hand-lorm weaver* - N««ktr rAMIU. ■jfj head* of familie* itilieadeof fimilie* 17 head* of familie*, in all go peraon*. »UBJRCr .. ArpUCATIlNi Apply, in behalf of the Society, for aid to enable them 10 emigrate. Appliei, in their behalf, for informatinu whetner a pauag* and provition* will be found them io Upper Canada, where they pnipoie to work at tbeVclland Canal. Tranmnitt the petition of tha*« Ihmilie*, under the name of the " Woit Kilbride Emigration Society," for oittliiincc to enable them to emi- grate to Upper Canada. wife and child the Coloiilei ; and will become bound, in iiny 'manner wfiich Government plcaiei, to repay the ex|tenie* t undertland* architecture, and wan tuught geometry, menturaiion, &c, ; will produce certificate* of good cnaructer. numerou* family Pray* for aMidance to emigrate to Canada. 850 familie* - The preiident, (ecretoryiand eleven directon of the Clydmdal* Emigration Society, coo«i*iing of S5ofiimi> lie*, apply for a ^rant of land, the mean* of conveyance, im- plement* of agriculture, and proviiionn for twelve month* to accompany the crant in Upper Canada. An led to believe tbi* grant i* chiefly to hand-loom weaver* 1 and that in the pre- •ent bad *late of trade, there are many mechanic* and other operative* euffering leverely for want ot employment, and that even tho*e who are employed receive *uch low wage*, a* are in*ufficient to procure the common nece**aric* of life, their bueinei* wholly depending upon tha cotton manufactorie* ; they have di*po*ed of almoet every thing of which they were pouetted in procuring food for their familie*, and the trifle that remain* i* *eque*tered for rent, and they likely to be turned out of door* ; it ii too painful, to enter into a minute detail of all their auflerinn. Applicant* *tato, there are 30 heada of familie* anxioualy depending upon the grant aince Augutt i8aC. April IJ. •6. May«i. April 16. «8. If. U- Gla*gow adjutant of local militia, on half-pay. Edinburgh maaon • . . Gtefgow weaver, formerly • labourer. by (.uofk peneioner, 3i*t foot • Caropeie BftwUlbaoe Gloagow pensioner tailor 550. wife and 10 children Applie* for aitiitanca to emigrate to Canada, u his half pay will not eupportliia family; and fte is in great diitres*. wife and 5 children Solicit* for iiermi**ion to join the emigrant* proceeding from RenlVew and Lanark to Canada (to whom he u informed the grant it confined thi* *ea«on^ aa hi* family ore auffisring the greatest di*tre** for want of iood and clotoing, and the impoasibility of obtaiuing employment. Applies for a free passage and subeisteoce, in emigrating to Canada. family of 9 persons Applies for a grant of land and free passage to Canada, as his pension i* not luflicient to eupport hi* family! Itequesu aid from Government, to emigrate to Upper Canada. . . States, tliat rather than remain where he is, without any prospect of supporting himself, he and • number of his friends will contribute so much money, either by the family or individually, (if required by Government,) in order that they may emigrate to Canada, provided they are enecu* rased. Applicant applie* for a fl'ee paa*age on tbo part of him- *elf and fnends, and pray* for farther information. 4 sons and 1 daugh- 1 Prays for a hundred acre* of land and free er. I passage to Upper Canada, as the want of em- plo^ent and high price of tne naceasarie* of life prevent him eupporting hi* family, whom he tnutf will become (uccetiful. cultivators, when in .Canada. 3S ' • • ter. ■ « t"l ^ %. ^^. V* AIM'KNOIX TO THIRD REPORT Of THE I AbMfMta aT SCOTCH PETITIONS and MBM0KIAL8— ensioner, Chelsea Hospital. The President and Secretary of the Kil- mamuck Emigration Society, apply through the medium of T. F. Kennedy, Esq. M. P.— State that nil the Societies in Ayrshire are in connexion with each, and that Kilmarpock is the centre of communication ; that the idea of ga £unilies in Avrshire only having petitioned for Emigration is a mistake, as the number of the Societies is Six, (Containing an heads of families, who are most anxious to emigrate, as a means of relieving them from their present distres*. Request information as to what qualifications are neces*ary thet will conatitute them a* fit object* for Emigration, in the event of a grant being given. ftmily - Fray* for a free payage to Upper Canada. noN. •ny lo CanaiU, but lUtoni pnt'iv igrat* witli hi* lo Canwlt, w •nploymiDl. nicMloni upon DTMnmont to a Drscadtb, Iile otti to tmiante le ttrmt omttd u luiada, in order inada, as appli- igv I but iolicil iral initrumentf . iwart, and pray- r land that ii ex- I in Canada. icnont, to know to emigrate to «t dittreM ; and Lord Arch'' Ha- I MUon to C«> leld Bank (near of that lociety, h they had pre- eir miaeriee are » an Eaaioralion ler Canada who ' their peculiar n, and that aid owmhipt where nployment u a to Canada, and • . t to emigrate to ither penfionen, iry of the Kii- ply through y, lUq. M. P.— connexion with communication ; iving petitioned the Societiei it most anxious to their present ualifications are for Emigration, Jppcr Canada. SELECT COMMITTEB ON EMKiRATION -iHi;. *» AbaiTMU of 8COrCH PE11TI0N» MEMORI AI.S— fonlMim/. DATt I Pl.ACK o(\M af A|>|iMnll«n. lUiiiltaw. 18*7: • May 10. •4. Paisley parish of Barry, cu. of Forfar. Olatgofi U- D«Rt)itk«. iMrly IB ^tA rofli- ment. 14 VMrs in IM •riiiT akd'receifes no pension. agriculturist • • 3 sens wife, a sons, and 4 daughters. S resident, clerk, 3 members of tha Committee. Glasgow iradaimen a8. •9- Paisley ■VWiiCT ui <.Ur Ari'MCATiaN. Johnstown, Rmftdnhirt. labourers Petitioners beg for a grant of lund and !•■ Elements of husbandry in Cnnadn, ni (li«y ivu collt'cted •uflcient muiivy tu psy lor their passage. WIshls lo loin hts son, who hat been lo- cated on Amliemt hiand. Lake Ontario, in consequence of Iiis lon't rci|ui'>tin|( him.^nd the fimiily to tMni|{rati' g hrarin|{ that some arrangumentt will bu inadv tu facilitate a frcu passage, applies for information. Applicants state, that they compose the Committee of the Clydeidalo Emi((ratiun So- ciety, and apply on behalf of that Society for Informutiun now thvy may avail tlicmsi'lves of the grant by Parliunirnt, (sgrrusbjc to the information they have rvceived through the Newipapert,) fully answering their oipectations of Kmigiation ; pray for information what course they are to pursue. . Applicant states, that a number of tradesmen connected with Emigration Societies feel great alarm that weavers only are likely to be re- commended as fit persons to extend the grunt of Emigration ; therefore pray that thn '^ deep distress may be taken into favourobUA -oiisi- deration ; that they are starving, and will ba ejected from their dwellings in a few days. 60 beads of families Applicants petition on behalf of Go iieods of familias, composing an Emigration Society in I'aislcy ; state their despair at finding that no money will be grantee! towards Emigration this season ; their extreme distress, having large families, and the badness of trade nnd the advance in the price of provisions ; state that many of the Society have friends 99. Ij y^T^ March s. of Rmldonce. Dornie, Kentaill. Masweir* Town, Paliley. Corrokin Bictdtlbanc, Pertbibire. Wert Kilbridt. Dncrlprion. late in the 78th regi- ment, but ha« no pen- lion. wcavera operative weaven Nambcr of FAMILY. SUBJECT of the APPUCAnON. 3 (oni - - Applicant itateti that he not only appliee on behalf of himself and family, but that of a number of families his neighbours (in the Western Highlands,) who are most anxious to emigrate to British America ; that these families are without the means of subsistence, as they cannot even ^et a bit of grouad to plant potatoes, nor any employment ; that it would be i^eat blessing, if Government assisted them to emigrate to Canada ; and that they would cheerfully pay back any money that might be advanced for that [.urpose in a few vears ; that they would not desert to any foreign state, but on the contrary serve their King and country. States that, for his own part, he is in the same situation with the other poor families who wbh to emigrate, and although he served many years in the army, he did not claim a pension, as his fKends were comfortably situated, but reverse of fortolte obliges him now to apply for a free pas- sage to Canada, whfch he will repay with interest ; that necessity compels this application on the part of himself and others. 3 families 4 • - [ Applicants state, that they have joined the 9d Paisley Emigration Society, tor the purpose of emigrating to Upper Canada; that in consequence of the stagnation of the manutactures of the country, they have suffered privations which would harrow up the feeling of the most callous ; and that even now, the partial revival ot trade has not brought with, it a sufficient remuneration to the operative ; they have beto accustomed to labour previously to learning to weave, and as they have large families, and have served in the British army, they pray for assistance to emigrate to Upper Canada, as they are to be ejected from, their dwellings on tne s8th of May. H • I Applicant statdk that, in conjunction with a few others in bis neighbourhood, he intends to emigrate to Upper Canada, if encouraged by Government in the assistance of such Emigrants as are prevented bv poverty from paying their own expenses; that he would willingly, in 'inisipn with the other applicants, advance a portion of the freight and char^, pro- vided Government would assist them even in granting free tonnage in any vessel sailing from Port Glasgow or Greenock ; Prays for information upOn the subject. 17 heads of families! Petitioners state that they are members of the West Kilbride Emigration Society, and inhabitants of Ayr- shire ; thai tbey are operative weavers, and that in consequence of the want of employment from the depression of trade, and not the iMst prospect of its revival (as informed by merchants tnd others), tnat they are most anxious to enigrata with their families to Upper Canada. State, that owing to the badness of trade, thousands are thrown out of employment and reduced to a state of wretchedness hitherto unknown : Pnj for assist- ance, and the some allowance aa forme; '7 giv* to,^istressed artisans on emigrating. \'i^ '-y*'- ■• .*- * rfl?* ^ t^^jPIK^W"' -«#^^''^^^><««^ SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION:— 1837. 509 lATION. )t only appliM on umber or familiet laremoftanxioiu nilie* are without ;et a bit of giouod t would be i^eat grate to Canada; money that might ; that they would intmry lerve their m part, he i« in lilies who with to ■s in the army, he nfortebly lituatcd. iply for a free pu- eiti thatnecenity Ifandothen. !y have joined the Mwe of emigrating te stagnation of the suffered privations most callous: and IS not brought with. re; they have befe 5 to weave, and as D the British army, ler Canada, as they esSthofMay. conjunction with a b emigrate to Upper e assistance of such n paying their own Kpn with the other ; and charges, pro- dn in granting free sgow or Greenock : ley are members of inhabitanuof Ayr- that in consequence ssMon of trade, and »rmed by merchants emigrate with their ring to the badness *yment and reduced n: Pray for assist- giv* •■ ^ ABSTRACTS .'•■., or ^Petitions received at the Colonial Department from British Emigrants to the Republic of Colombia; the first, .dated 20tli October 1826, forwarded by His Royal Highness the late Duke of York. 4_C0L0MBIAN APPLICANTS. DATE of lb* AppHndMi. PLACE • of Betidencc. Dewriptian. Number of FAMILY. SUBJECT of the APPLICATION. 18161 Oct. 30. Topo, Colombia. labourers 44 heads of families The Petitioners, who are mostly Scotchmen, with their families, were engaged by a Mr. John Roas, Agent of the Colombian Agricultural Association, to proceed as agri- culturists to Colombia, where they were to be placed on ele- vated land that would produce European grain ; to be supported for eight months, and to be supplied wiUi implements of hus- bandry; by which means it was hoped that they would be enabled to repay with interest the adrances made by the Association. ' After the total failure of their first crop, the Agent of the Association promised them a rials a day each, if they would make trial for a second; to which tliey agreed; but at the end of three weeks, thev were told that no more money or provi- sions would be forthcoming. _ The Petitioners, being left in a strange land, where pro- visions are dear, without means of employment, ir^p'ore His Royal Highness to interest himself in their behalf, in order that they may be enabled te emigrate to the British dominions in ^ North America. COPY of a LETTER from Mr. R. WUton, to The Right Hon. R. J. Wilmot Hortm. SIR, ^ ^ A Petition from certain Persons emigrated to South America under engagements contracted with the Columbian Agricultural Association, and in which these Emig.^nts complain . of the treatment they have experienced, was presented to The House by Mr. Alderman Waithman, and referred by the House to the Committee of Emigration, of whichtfou are Chairman : As Mr.. Alderman Waithman deviated from the usual courtesy observed by Members in cases of complaint, where the character or interests of parties only otiicially connected with other Members are concerned, and gave none of the Members who are connected with the C A. A. notice of his Intention to present such Petition, I did not think it became me, as one of the Directors present in the House at the time the Petition was presented, to notice the observations which fell from a Member who pursued a course so unusual, and so much at variance with every princip{e of Equity. I have however felt very desirous to state to the Committee of Emigration, that it is the anxious wish of the Directors of the C. A. A. to meet any and every allegation charged against them ot their agents ; and that they are not only ready to attend personally, but to submit their books of correspondence, accounts, j)ic. — in short to give every facility in their power for the conduct of the inquiry which the Committee may chuse to institute. 550. - 3 S 3 "^^^ [) i ! i t t V ^ * * ■'iniift.ib t 5»o APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE The Board of Directors has already given orders to their Secretary to furnish every document on the first summons; and Mr. Powles, the Director best acquainted with the details of the transactions of the Association, only waits the permission of the Committee to present himself, with the Secretary, for examination. Regent-street, May 30, 1837. I have the honour to be Your obedient and humble Servaut, R.Wiiion. The addreai of Mr. Powles is^Sam. Powles, Esq. Fieemaa's GHirt, Royal Exchange ; of the Secretary, J. Stewart, Esq. 32, Bucklersbury. Sir James Mackintosh, Dr. Lushington, and myself, are now the only Members of Parliament Directors; but Mr. Pascoe Grenfiell and Mr. Edward Ellice are Diredon, and * were in the last Parliament. IN addition to 627 Petitions, of which a short Abstract has been above given, there have been 1 20 Communications made to this Committee, from different individuals, all containing specific Proposals and Plans upon the subject of Emigration. These Flans and Proposals have been considered; and the following Abstract of their dates and the places from which they were sent, is here added, for the satisfaction of the Parties. » PLACES FROM WHENCE SENT. DATE. EDINBURGH a6 August 1836. London .... . . 37 August 1836. >8 August i8a6. Margate .-...-. Wimbledon 3 September 1836. Ballinasloe 7 September 1836. Castle Toward 11 September 1836. Cheltenbam - - - - - ai September 1886. London - - ... 13 September 1836. Quebec - - • ■ - - - 16 September 1836. Edinburgh London ....... 34 September 1836. Liverpool ....... 10 November 1836. London ....... November 1836. • Deal 15 November 1836. ^ Preston - • • • . ; • : . 1* December i8a6. PreUwich - - - - « - - 5 December i8ft6. 18 December 1836. Glasgow - - Preston 11 December 1836. Durham - • - ao December 1836. Boston ....... 37 December i8s6. London 38 December 1836. London ....... I g December 1836- KentishTown 30 December, 1836. 16 January 1837. Ballinaster Littleton 3 January 1837. Bearefords 5 February 1837. London ....... 14 February 1837. Cappoquin ....... Canterbury ....... 8 February 1837 ; 16 April 1837. 18 February 1837. Edinburgh ....... 17 Febmary 1837. Brighton 18 February 1837. SELECT CONfMItTEE ON EMIGRATION :— 1827. sn PLACES FROM WH1.NCE SENT. London London Liverpool BallioMloe London Clapham Glafsow Oundle £m^ • London Norfolk Limerick Boohe . London Cork - London Manchattar TottMhaM Freshford Winkfield London Buxton Hull - Dublin Hamilton Dinewall Dublin Wordalej, Bristol Taghman, co< near Stourbridge Wexford ' Kentiib T«m Bath . • Glaigpvr .DowQpatrick KeDtidi Town Reigate Tottenham Green, London Limerick London London Nottingham London London London London New York • Dublin Dublin Tavistock - London Dublin Clifton London London CO. Wexfbrd DATE. 30 Feb. i8a7; 33 Feb. 1837; 19 Feb. 1837. 19 Feb. 1837; 1 March 1837 ; 3 March 1837. 33 February 1837. 38 February 1837. ' February >.837. , ' 30 February 1837. 37 February 1837. 33 February 1837; 37 March 1837. s8 February 1837. 37 February 1837. • * 37 February 1837. 35 Februaiy 18371 i> ^P"* t^tj. 9) February 1837. 16 February 1837; 30 and 33 February 1837. 19 Februta. ^837. 34 February 1837; 15 March 1837. 37 February 1837. •3 February 1837. -•."'; 33 February 1837. ,,.,, 3o February 1837. ^ 30 February 1837. ig February 1837. ■ f : .-, 33 February 1837. 33 February tB87i 5 February 1837; 2> Februacy 1837. .■ _ ' 6 March 1837. 13 March 1837. , 10 Murch 18.7 ; 30th March 1837. 5 March 1837. J - 1 March 1837. 14 April 1837; and i May 1837. 34 February 1837; 33 February 1837; 6 March 1837; 7 March 1837. 30 December i8s6t ao Februaiy 1837. 30 April 1837. y 3 March 1 837. 6 March 1837. 14 March 1837; and an Estimate not dated; 18 March 1827. 1 March 1837. 33 February 1837 ; and 9 March 1837. 14 March '1837; 37 March 1837; 19 April 1837. 17 March 1837. 5 March 1837. ' • • * * 13 March 1837. 13 March 1837. 3 March 1837. 13 March 1837; 19 March 1837. 3 March 1837 ; and 4 April 1837. 5 March 1837, 14 April 1837. 15 April, 10 April, gBday and 31 May, 1837. 9 April 1837; 30 April 1837. 19 April 1837. >^ 9 May 1837 ; 3 May 1837 ; 33 May 1837. 3 May 1837 ; and 98 May 1837. 39 May 1837. 33 June 1837. •*■ ■■ '• 9 June; and 16 June 1837. A 3 S 4 51 « APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE Appendix, N* a. ESTIMATES from Mr. Buchanan, delivered in to the Committee, 13th and aoth March 1837. Dear Sir. Downingnitreet, latli March 1827. I HAVE examined Mr. A. C. Buchanan's EBtimate of the expense attendinK the conveyance and settlement of Emigrants, and I perfectly concur with him in opiaion, that perfect justice can be done to them, as well as to the public, for a sum not exceeding 60/. per family. I give this opinion without imputing any improvidence to the Conductor of the former benevolent operations of this character, a great part of the excess of expense in the former over the latter estimate being attributable to the enhanced rate of freight, and other circum- stances over which Mr. Robinson had but partial or no control. Mr. Buchanan's suggestions and observations on matters connected with this aubject, in general, coincide with the impressions and information I have received, and, I think, merit particular attention. Very respectfully yours, "* . . W.B.Felton. 1 ( 1 • ,11 '»: N* 1. — ESTIMATE under the proposed amended Passengers Act, that the transport' of SCO adult Emigrants, equal to 330 Persons, in a ship 400 tons register, from the United Kingdom, until put on the Location, not to exceed in distance 50 milea from t St. Lawrence and below Montreal. Transport Hire, including water, fuel, and birthing, 400 tons at 26s. per ton •• - » --.- Provisions, Irish Emigrant : — 4 lbs. Potatoes --'id.' I) lb. Oatmeal - • - 2 Jib. Pork ... - 2 Molasses ----- -j , Herrings - f^- - • - -> ' S d. per day for 50 days ; average^ passage, 25*. each - - - - - Scotch Emigrant, same expense, food a little varied - English Emigrant, 6J d. or 7 d. per day, in^consequenca of whickl 10/. is added to the estimate for Irish and Scotch Emigrants Incidents for Medicine, Sic. --..---- One pair Blankets to each family, being 50 pair for the whole, computed to cost .----.-•- Till arrived at Quebec £. £. I. d. 6ao - - 260 - •• » ■• -« •• 18 - - 8co 330 Persons, divided into funilies of 5 persons each, Would make 66f Pamihes; so that the cost of a man, wife, and 3 children, until arrived at Quebec, will be about 12/. Expense of removing them 50 miles, and victuals, 1/., say 13/.; but if taken to the O^awa, Kingston or York, it would cost about from 3/. or 4 /. additional each family. Transport SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION :-i8a7. Si3 Transport expense of Family, unti! planted on their Location, within 50 miles of St. Lawrence : Passage of five persons, as above ----.. Log-house --.,.. 1 additional pair of Blankets '. Farming! '"npleroents I. Mochanical implements - - . ^ . . . . [ Household and cooking furniture - ' - A Cow at April foUmoing Seed, wheat, oats, potatoes --..... 16 or 16 months Provisions, taking into calculation milk from Cow foi SIX months ----.... Proportion of expense of superintendence to each Family - Incidents for Cnrriage, Salt, &c. • - - . . £. £. I. ». 13 - - 4 - - - 7 6 1 - - I - - 1 10 - 25- 25- 28 - - 3 - - 1 10 - 57 »7 6 Equal to <£. U . 1 1 ». 6 d. per head, when located and finally planted. N. A— In this calculation I take it for granted, that in the amount of any extended Emigration, that the charter of Ships will be thrown open to the different Porte of the United Kingdom generally. d. Trtiuport N' 8.— EXPENSE of locating 568 Emigrante; say 41- adults and 153 children, by Mr. Robinson in 1823, from Cork. Vide Emigration Report, Sess. 1826, page 319. -■ Navy Board, for transport from Cork to Quebec : Ship Stakesby - . - £.1,185 4 4 - Hebe - - - . 976 - - Provisions and Medicines for both ships, 1.67013 3 Navy Office, Transport Department, 36th May 1824. - Steam Boat at Cork, embarking Emigrants Mr. Robinson's expenses in Ireland • Vide Emigration Report, Sess. 1826, P«ge8 3i9.320 and 321. Paid by Commissariat in Canada D° Mr. Robinson in - d* - £. 860 14 4 8,028 3 5 Cur' - £.8,888 17 g Expended by Col. Marshall, Stores ,- Mr. Robinson's expenses in Canada • 8f £. s. d. 3.77» >7 7 17 »3 3 J 187 9 8 8,000 - - 340 4 - 821 18 6 19.639 3 -J Equal to 22/. 1 1. 6d, a head, young and old, when located and finally planted. 550. 3 T N* 3.— EXPENSE }:;•! fii ■'i 1/ } ' 614 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE N* 3.— EXPENSE of locating 568, by Plan of Mr. Buchanan. Transj^ort Hiro to convey g6B Penions, say 415 adults, and 153 children under 12 years, would require 850 tons of Shipping, at 36 >. per ton, including water, birthing, and fuel ....-.- Provisions at 6 rf. per day for adults; say — • . . Potatoes -•---id. > ■ Oatmeal and Biscuit - Q • Jib. Pork 2 Molasses ------ j Herrings ----- -J ' 6 d. per day, for a voyage of 50 days, at average; but, considering the number of children, 20 ». a head for 568 persons is computed to cover the actual expense - - - - 120 pair Blankets for the voyage ------- Medicine, Dec. Sic. - - - -^- Equal to 3/. Oi. 7 d. ahead, till arrived at Quebec - £. 114 Log-houses, at 4/. each --,----- 1 20 additional pair Blankets - -- Farming Utensils and Mechanical Implements, 2 /. each family Seed, wheat, potatoes, at 2/. each family ...--- Carriage of Baggage and Provisions within 50 miles . . . - Provisions for 15 months, at la.Gd, per day for each family 1 14 Milch Cows, computed to cost -...--- Expense of Superintendence -------- Allowance for Contingencies Equal to 12/. 6 s. "jd. a head, if located in the Lower Provinces; and ifin Upper Canada, additional transport a. d. 1,105 - - 568 - - 43 - - 6 - - 1,721 466 43 228 228 97 3.660 285 356 100 7,064 513 7.577 Equal to 13/. 6s. ^d, a head, if located and planted 150 miles up the Ottawa, or in the neighbourhood of Kingston, on Lake Ontario. A.C. Buckiman. Sir, 2, Oreat Ryder-street, St. James's, March nth, 1837. AoREBABLB to your direction on Stttdraiy, I hftve now the hotioiir herewith to submit to you an Estimate of the probable expense of transporting 568 persons of similar ans to those taken out by Mr. Robinson in 1823, and locating them in Lower Canada, providing them with ample means finally to establish and pfant tnem. I take the present rate (rt freights outward for shipping, but should freights in iper respects advance it will not affect the OtttW&ird flriight td Noirdi AmeUca, as so many Tiess^ w going out in bidlast ; and the calculation as to provision is at the present price, which is not likely to vary much, or at ieaAt to thdt extent as would materially change my calculation. The SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION:— iSiy. fl APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE ft V|^ the emigrant, which can hardly be doubted from the proximity to the Quebec market, but foliticaUif an increaie of population and Britiah feeling and principle in the Lower Province 18 abiolutely necemary, and which the continued embarruMment to every improvement propoaed by His Majesty's Government fully establishes. f» It was, Sir, a favourite scheme of the late Sir G. Prevost, not to encourage the settlement of the south side the Saint Lawrence or Eastern townships, Lut that there should remain a barrier of wilderness against the Americans ; for my part, I should be more disposed tu depend on a grateful loyal population, and the introduction of 50,000 good emigrants, in event of any future war with our ambitious Republican neighbours, than thnir favourite bush to fight in. In fact those very districts, except in few instances, are filling with any thing but a desimble population, such as American squatters, that it will be found, if ^ longer neglected, very aiWcult to dislodge. It is observed by some, that the locating of emigrants in those situations would cause g'eat difficulty, for ^ 1 mt of roads ; and this must remain so, so long as population is withheld, ad as the roads are, the Americans contrive to send their cattle and other provisions through tkoie vtry towiuhips and on to the Quebec market. • As to New Brunswick, I nerer understood that its soil was suited for the culture of wheat, and hitherto farming has not been much attended to, the chief employment being in the timber trade ; and at present, I believe. New Brunswick is obliged to procure the great portion of its bread and nour from the States; and in event of a large inffux of inhabitants going in, it would drain the province of much of its specie, as they have nothing to barter with the Americana. One or two hundred families might make advantageous settlements in Novia Scotia, and which would annually increase. Those persons accustomed to fishing, such as the sea-coast ■ ** inhabitants of county Cork, would find good employ in the fisheries. I do no;: think that any quantity of good land is now in th^irassession of the Crown in that province. , The same remark may generally apply to Prince Fdward Island. The land is neurly •11 granted, but I presume the proprietors would gladly relinquish a moiety to the Crown, for the purpose of settlement. It has been already stated, that the River Saqueny holds out good inducements for forming a settlement, and which I have a strong anxiety to see effected. I shall conclude. Sir, this hasty sketch, by assuring you of my detennination on all occasions to make my humble efforts useful to ^ou, and give any assistance in my power in the farthering the very important and interesting question to its final completion. To R. Wilmot Horton. Esq. &c. 8cc. &c. I have the honour to remain. Sir, Your obedient Servant, A. C. Buchanan. QU£RI£S submitted by Mr. S. Hill to the Merchants of Londonderry, respecting an improved alteration in the Passenger Act. Sir, a. Great Ryder-street, St. James's, March aoth, 1827! 1 HAVE the honour to present you with the accompanying Letters received this day by me from M. S. Hill, Esq., collector of the port of Londonderry, with Queries submitted by him to the principal merchants of that city, with a view to an improved alteration in the present Passenger Act ; and I be^ to state, I fully concur in the observations made by Mr. Hill. I have tlie honour to be. Sir, To Your most obedient Servant, R, Wilmot Horton, Esq. A. C. Buchanan. &c. Sec. $(0. 4: SELECT COMMITTEE ON RMIORATION:— 1827. My detr Sir, Derry. 12th March i^ay. In coniequence of the inclemency of the weather, I did not receive your letter of the 3d inttant until this morning : Anxioui however to afford you any information in my power on a subject in respect to which I wish your exertions may succeed, every exertion un my part hat been used. There is but one sentiment in Derry, as to the necessity of amending the Passenger Act. I am satisfied, under existing circumstances, that every facility sliould be afforded to Emigration, with proper regard to the comfort and safety of those who avail themselves of it. Very sincerely yours, A. C. Buchanan, Esq. M. S. Hiil. QUERIES with a view to an improyed alteration in the present Paisbnobr Act. Query 1st. M^ould it be advisable to do away with legislative interference in that re- spect altogether, or to provide for the safety and comfort of passengers by regulations and re- strictions properly modified and approved of? sd. What additional number of passengers might be taken, in proportion to tonnage ; and ought not the present regulation, with respect to children, itiU continue ? 3d. What regulation would it be wise to adopt in respect to provisions ; and would it .be sufficient to make the master responsible that each passenger shall take on ooard a Hufficier.t quantity of wholesome victualling for three months, still holding the owners ac- countable under a penalty, to have that quan- tity on board in case of accidents ? 4th. Can a doctor be dispensed with; and how might his services be supplied? 5th. Is not the present regulation, which requires *he precise description of passengers to oe for raxaed for licence, and to be therein inserted before the vessel can clear out, an impediment to the trade ; :.>id would not the number which the vessel can carry under the Act be sufficient to state, without particu- larizing adults, children under 14 years and children under 7 years of age? 55« Answer. It would not be right to do away with legislative interfe.ence ; it in absolutely necessary to provide for the cOmfort of pas- sengers, and restrict the number. ACbw. A vessel can accommodate with every convenience and comfort two passen- gers to every three tons of her register; children to continue under the present exist- ing law, that is, two under fourteen years, or three under seven years of age, equal to one passenger. Answ. The description of people now emi- grating are not in circumstances to lay in provisions for the voyage to the extent that the present law requires, nor are they in the habit of using such provisions ; the master, owners or consignee, under a penalty, should be bound ti. see that a reasonable quantity of good wholesome victuals of the best descrip- tion that the passengers can procure or are in the habit of using, equul to three months con- sumption, be put on Doard ; and that the pre- sent law respecting water be complied with. Answ. A doctor is altogether unneces- sary; in few cases can he render any service to passengers, being himself sick dufing the greater part of the voyage ; the masters of passenger ships better understand how to treat the passengers than the doctor, and are in the habiV of administering medicine when neces- sary. * Answ. Much inconvenience arises in the present mode of taking out a licence, hav>r,g to forward the application for sa"^^ at least six days prior to the clearing out of the vessel, when it is necessary to state the number of adults, the number under 14 years of age and the number under 7 years otage ; after the Ficence is granted, in many cases, a number of those who have engaged their passages retract, and such as oner in their stead will not correspond ; consequently, in such cases, the ship loses the privilege of taking her complement of passengers. An application for a licence, stating the number of adults, and allowing children, as rated in the Act, should be considered sufficient. 6th. Would 3 T;l £- ii8 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE f ■ ^ 6th. Would it not b« beneflciti to trade if veinclit were allowed to take out the full iiumbiT of pauenneni in proportion to tonnage, without rvl'erence to any car|{o on board, pro- vided'it appears to the proper otHcem (agree- ably to the meaaurement and rule* pretcribed by the exiiting law) that there ia height and apace aulHcient for their paksengcra, their proviiiona and luggage ? Anaw. In eaaM where ihipa have carf(o M board to lerve a» balloiit, and not to incon- venience paaaengcm, leaving them Hiitliuient room for their luggage and proviiiona under deck, (hould be allowed to carry the com- plement of paaaeniren agreeably to their ton- nage, aame as if ballasted with stone or Custom House, Londonderry, I3 March 1837. My dear Sir, I HAVE been favoured with the receipt of your Letter of the 3d instant ; and as I deem it my duty to render Mr. Horton any information that may be thought usefu^in the proposed amendment of the Passenger Act. I have stated my view of the case in the shape of question and answer, aa given in the preceding columns, first having submittec the same to several of the principal merchants in this city, who perfectly accoM with me in every particular. I am not quite sure, however, that ^ would be prudent or advisable to allow three pas- sengers to every two tons ; it might be better. I think, to let the Act remain as it is in that respect, because a similar indulgence to foreign vessels would be naturally sought for in the alteration of the scale, which would afford to them an advantage over our shipping, the latter being generally of much amaller dimensions, and consequently less able to accommodate the additional number of passengers, at the rate of three adults to two tons. However. I have judged it right to state the opinion of the merchants here in that respect, although I think British vessels might carry children and crew exclusively. The practice adopted hitherto, a* querieu in N°5, is as mere matter of regulation on the part of the Commissioners of Customs^ and can be remedied as pointed out in the answer, by order of the Treasury, without touching the Act I shall be always happy to assure you that "'^ '" I remain most sincerely yours, M. S. Hill. Be pleased to acknowledge the receipt. A. G, Buchanan, Esq. 8ELBCT COMMItt^fi ON IftMIOnATION -1817. .')I0 Appendix, N* 3. ♦ » QUERIES submitted to Ten Colonial Witneasei; and Absthact* of tlii-ir Ankwkhs wliicli have been given in wparacely. Query? Fint : — Taking the whole range of the North .A iiericau Colonies, and reducing them to one cuinmon average, do you thmk it would be safe to estimate the expense necessary for the satis- factory location of an Emigrant family, of u man, woman and three children, at less than ;£.6o. per family, such expense to be incurred after their landing at a colonial port ? A^o<«.— Tliii query invotvct IM luppMilion, thit tho ts- pcDM of patuge i* ncrer to be incurrid by Oovernmeni, but M, in aUeaiOi, to b« paid by the partiet intereitcil in the remoTal of a lupei abundant population; and that the Emi- grant'* family have been approved nfby jn Agent appointed by Government to examine all propoied Emigrant*. All the cxpenMi and circumitoncei of tho putage to bo entirely independent of Government awittance or refponiibility. No Emigrant would be entitled to Government auiitance in tht Coloniea who had not received a voucher from a Govern- ment Agent at home, that luch Emigrant and family wero proper subjectt for receiving Government atiiilance. S. Hill. NAMES UF WrrNISSKS nlraad; eumlned b«fuK the C«iaiiiilt(t> ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. I. J. Sewell, Eiq. Chief Justice of Lower Canada S. Very Rev. Archdeacon Strachan, D. D. of Uppcr\ Canada J 3. W. B. Felton. Eaq. of the Legialative Coancil of Lower"! Canada J 4. P. Robinaon, Supenntendent, and of the Executive^ Council, Upper Canada J 5. Capt. Manhall, Superintendent of the Military Settle-\ menta. Upper Canada • • • • •/ 6. J. Howe, E«q. Deputy Pottmaater General of Nov.. 1 Scotia ....... .y 7. A. C. Buchanan, Eaq. Merchant, of Lower Canada • 8. B. P. Wage •, Eaq. Merchant, of Lower Canada 9. Mr. Rotwell Mount, Deputy Land Surveyor, Upper*) Canada J 10. Captain Weatherley, half pay, Juatice of the Peace for") the Diitrict of Bathunt, Upper Canada • -J Thiuka It would not be lafe to ei timate the expenae at leu than £.60.. Thinks £.60. neceiiary. Thinks not leH than £,60. ncceiiary. Think* £.60. on an average neceaury. Think*, on an average for Upper and Lower Canada that £.60. is neccMwry. Think* the estimate a fair one. .* Think* in the near districts that £.<)0. is sufficient. Thinks £.60. safficieat, Dow not think it safe to estimate leu than £. Co 3T4 5«o APPKNDiX TO THIRD REPORT OF TIIK i If 1 1 k Secondii/!—T)n you mninly concur in the ne- cessity ui i^M^stance tu the vulue uf £,(n). fur- niiticd to the Kini^runt uiurc or leia in tlic fol- lowing |>ro|iortionR ? Average F.ttimatt iff the Expenit qfiftlling a Family, c»»tul- ing nf oni Man, un* Ifomnn, ami Ihrti Childrtn, in iht liritith North American Provincen JitltH/fdiihing the varioui ilemt nf Expenditure. Expcnici of conveyancu IVom th« port of disembarkation to plsce of locution - - - • £, lo - - Frovltioni, viz. rations for l,'> months for I man, I woman and 3 children, at 1 lb. of flour and I lb> ul' purk for each adult, and half that quimlity fur each child, mailing 3^ rations per diem, pork being at £. 4. p«r borral oud Hour at i. I. 51. per bairol • • - 40 6 10 Freight of provisions to place of scttlomept • 1 10 10 House for each family • • • • •!-- Implements, Ite. 4 Blankeu - • • £.- 14 - * I Kettle - 5 10 I Fryhig-pon -••-13 « 3 Hoes - 4 <» 1 Spade - * 9 I wedge - > 4 1 Auger -aa I Pick-axe ..••-!- s Axes I - - ' Proportion of grindstone, wnipsaw and cross-cut • saw - 14 - Freight and charges m ditto 15 per cent - - 10 3 £■3 »8 - (3SU) £'i 6 8 Cow 4 10 - Medicines and medical attendance - • ■ 1 - - Seed corn • - - - --,16 Potatoes, 5 bush, a* 3 1. 61/. - • - is 6 14 - Proportion ofthe expense jTbuilding for the dep6t 1 - - Ditto for clerks, issuers, and lurvtyurs to »!iow the loU » 5 - m ' £.60. Sterling is equal to • £.G6 13 4 A/a4«. —Something in the nature of thii RchMlule, appli- cable 10 the ipecial I'lrcunulanici of (he lucutiDn of each particular cmigrani, would Im> UvliviTsd 10 him upon hi* landing ; and upon his prricnting a voucher to the Emigra- tion Agfnt al (he colonial port, thnwing that he had ieeu approvi-il a* an Kmigrant, and u|Mm hiicxpri'wing hii with to recilvv thia iort of loan in kind. In case of this occur- ring, he would b« called upon to sign the Mciirity advertvd to in tly next query, and then conveyed to his locution at the Ouvemmeiit expense. As two children are cuniidered eqoal to the expense of an adult, if the family contistcd or a widower an 3. W. B. Felton, Esq. 4. P. Robinson, Esq. . . • . 5. Capt. Manholl .... 6. J. Howe, Esq. .... 7. A.C.Buchanan Esq. ... 8. B. P. Wagner, Esq. 9. Mr. Roswell Mount ... 10. Capt. Weatherley .... ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. Does not doubt the correctness of the Estimate. . . . . D* . . . . D* . . . . D» Thinks tliot £.48. 101. sufficient in the near Districts, Thinks £.Co. sufficient, expend^ as stated. ' Concurs with (Jie Estimate. Mainly concurs with the Estimate. lit Achwluls, ipyli- ic luculinn of racli ij lu liini upon hi* cher to the Rniim- ng that ht had bttn tx|irvwii P*' tnnuin interest, being at the rata of 5 per cent upon the *um of (,. 80. or in other word* upon the sum of C' ^- iinproved by deferred intereat for leven year*, to me lum of C- ^^* interest being only calculated in that instance at ^.4. per cent ? gnol, that the act vpUmc of (h« loan U to b« Ury en hi* part, ontciwly tho Mm* aa i^aa bit own counuy h»A propoMd, from motivn adTanra him a loan of Miual auuuoi, upon tlia of repayment. letlMlori* aniirely volun- ly individual in of charily, to principia NAMU or WITNUSU (IfMly malaiit btfcn tin CwaaltlM. I. J. Sawall, Baq. .... a. Vary Un. Archdeacon, Strachaa, D. D. 3. W. B. Felton, E«|. 4. P. Robinaoa, Eaq. 5. Capt. Mantiall 6. J. Howe, Baq. 7. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. 8. B. P. Wagner, Em|. g. Mr. Roawell Mount 10. Capt. Weathtrley - ABsnucT or aniwbm. Doaa not think that any dilculty will eaiit, provided legitiatifo proviiioni be made for Lower Canada. Thinks there will be no diOculty, on proper eaplaeatiooa being given to the Emigrant. Same opinion as Chief Justice Sewell. Thinks there will be no dittculty, if tlie deed be withheld till half tho money be paid. Thinks there will be no difficulty. D* Recommends two securities to be required, and thinks there will be no difficulty. Thinks there will be no difficulty. . . - . D* • . . . - D* QUBH'. > Fourthly: — Do yon consider that the Emigrant settler, if not called upon to pay any interest for the space of seven years, will have any diificulty whatever in affording to |»y {,. 4. per annum, at the expiration of that period, in money or money's worth, that is, in srain and pork of a merchantable quality, estimatecTupon a given principle of arbi- tration, BHck Emigrant having always a power at his own option of paying off the principal oi (,. 80. io instalments oi {,. 30. each iit money, until the whole of the original loan b« discharged ? Vat* .-'—The mode of estimating the value of the produce of the Settler's farm in money, would be bv a simple esti- mate of market price, made under prescribed regulations in Colonies, and' value. ling produce with reference to such NAMES or wrTNF;S8ES ■Imdy nuuiawd befoni the Coninilln. ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. 1. J. Sewell, Esq. a. Vei7 Rev Arcbdaacon Suachan .... 3. W. B. Felton, Esq. 4. P. Robinson, Esq. - ■ 5. Capt. Marttull 6. J. Howe, Esq. Thinks the Emigrant will be able to pay. Has no doubt of the ability to pay interest, and recom. mends inatalincnts of £. 5. to be received for the payment oi tho principal. Thinks there will be no difficulty. ' '• - . - . D» : , . . - - D* D" 8. B. P. Wigner, Esq g. Mr. Roswell Mount ...... 10. Capt. Weatherley - - Recommends £. 5. instalments to be received inpayment of principal, and thinks there will be no difficulty. Thinks there will be no difficulty. ^ Is confident there will be 00 difficulty. 5.S0. 3^ 5«« APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE QU£RT? Ftfthiy ;— Are you of opinion that if t^is pro- g)utioD be whquately explained to the Pauper migr&nt, and if he be made conclusively td understand that it is not a rent for his land, but a payment of interest upon a loan of money lent to him at his own requett, which loan has been advanced to him in kind and not in money, that he would be in any degree disposed to resist the pay< mentof this interest, it being explained to him, that at any time he has the power of exonerating him- self from such payment, by the payment of ^^. 80.? Nal»:—1hia quettion might not appear OMire MccMaiy to be put to • Colonial witneit, tiwa to any other wf tnen ; but it haa reference to the diiindination naturally felt to the payment of rent in countriei under the drcumitancei of our North American Colonies, which caintaiir an indefinite eitent of mute land of fertile quality. v»m ") t .'I fc«6?«} -'•' -4 .'v -.«« '} f> r.. - \\ e head of a family to idonthelot; woula an pay the intereit at the tvailing hims«1f of the on that particular loti ■ '■-' '''■ ERS. of the improvementa icient teciirity. ntil the end of 4 yean, SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION i-iSa;. Query? Seventhly : — Are you of opinion that any sort of practical difficulty will be found in the levy of this interest, suppqsifig such levy to be tnad^ under the directions of the Governor? NAMES OF Wn-NESSES ■Imdj euniiiied bcrore Ihe Cominillee. 5»3 1. J. Sewell, E«q. .... a. Very Rev. Archdeacon Strachan, D. D. 3. W, B. Felton, Eiq. 4. P. Robinson, Esq. •4iihm.->'.. » . 5. Capt. Marshall - . . ' .' 6. J. Howe, Esq. .... 7. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. ... 8. B. f. Wagner, Esq. g. Mr. Koawell Mount ... 10. Capt, Weatherley .... > Wheii aided by legislative provision!, there will bo no difficulty. Thinks there will be no difficulty. D* D" f D* '^' • •.■• ^ • D* D* D» Is not informed on this subject. Thinks there will be no difficulty. V'f .'h*" \* QUFKY ? Eighthly: — What would be the average ex- pense per cent, upon the collection of the interest? ?v-:l lO N.\MES OF WrrNIiSSES ttlretd; etainined befiire the CommiUec. I. J. Sewell, Esq. - . - • . • 3. Very Kev. Archdeacon Strachan, D. D. . 3. W. B. Felton, Esq. - - - . 4. P.Robinson, Esq. - - * . • ^^^ . 5. Capt. Marsliall . . . ' *' ;" ;. 6. J. Howe, Esq. - . . - - « . ■ 7. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. ...... 8. B. P. Wagner, Esq g. Mr. RoBwell Mount - • . ^ . 10. Capt. Weatherley - • - - - • ABSTRACT OF ANSWERS. V(l Thinks not less than 6 per cent. .... ... Perhaps 5 per cent, if collected by the local authorities. 15 per cent, but about 5 per cent if collected by local authorities. 5 per cent. S per cent, if collected in money. '- < 5 per cent. From 5 to 7 ^ per cent if in money, and from to to 15 per cent if in produce. a ; per cent in money, and from 5 to 10 per cent in produce. Not informed. ' 3 f per cent in money, 10 per cent if paid in kind 3U 2 5'4 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE QOZRY ? Ninthfy: — Are you of opinion that there would be anycisort of indisposition on the part of the colonial legishitures to give every iaci- li^ to the levy of this interest, in consideration of the extreme advantages to the colony which must arise from the introduction Of a regulated system of Emigration, consisting of properly selected Emigrants at a proper period of life, who have left their own country under the circumstance of there bdng no demand for their labour ? Note:— The Coloniet would benefit emhuhify tinin tU the prodaetioni which might be the rewih of EmigiMiaa, with the exception of the inlemts and repeymente, which mutt necetianlv be • very tmattpttft of the actual wealth created, as ii ihowa by the cooevlrfent teati^iony of all the Colonial WitocMea. N^^MES OF WrrNESSES ■beidj OTiminwl beibn tbc CmamitM*. I. J. SeweU, Esq. 9. Very Rev. Archdeacon Straehan, D, 3. W. B. Felton, Esq. 4. P. Robinson, Esq. • 5. Capt. Marshall 6. J. Howe, Esq. 7. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. 8. B. P. Wagner, Esq. 9. Mr. Roswell Mount 10. Cq>t. Weatherley - ABaTRACT OF ANSWERS. Thinks there will be no dificuhjr. - D« - D* - D* - D« . D» - D» . D» - D" - D* Query ? Tentkly : — Do you conceive, in point of fact, that this proposal of advancing capital to the Emigrants, in other words to the Colcmy, differs firom any speculation which might be made, of advancing capital in any colonial enterprize, whether on loan or in mines, for which the capitalist would naturally require a remunerating interest ? Nde :— If an individual, or a company in England ad- vancea £. 100,000. on a Mine or on a Canal, ^iey would ekpect to receive MterMi upon their capital; but could the Cologisti complain of a lemittasce to England of that interest. 11 NAMKS OF WiniESSIS ■Imdj eiuBined before the Cownitlce. ABUBACr OF AMSWIBS. f 1. J.Sewell, Esq. . Thinks there is no difference. a. Very Rev. Archdeacon Straehan, D. D. ♦ . D« 3. W. B. FeltOD, Esq. ■• ... . D* 4. P. Robinson, Esq. - ■ D' 5. Capi. Marshall W 6. J. Howe, Esq. • D' 7. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. . D* 8. B. P. Wagner, Esq. . D- ^ 9. Mr. Roswell Mount . • ■ D» 10. Capt. Weatherley • ■ , . D* 1 SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION :~i827. 5«5 swih of EmigfMiw. I MMymenU, whU* r the actual wealth tetthpony «f all the SBB. • # W<, rnpanr In England ad- a Canal, they would cac'.ti^; but could the to England of that QOEBT ? EleoaUhfy .* — Whether in the instance of indi- tidiiaU advwicing their capital, a higher rate of iateieat would not be expected; and whether such interest would not be expected to cotnmeRce at a much earlier period than after the lapse of seven years? NoU: — The propdit'.'m herein made ii, to adrance 60/. charge interest at the rate of 61. i3<. 4 d. per cent, that it 61 per cent upon the original 60 L ; bat ai it i« intendtd that Uie mother Country ihould sustain nj ultimate loss upon these loans, the Emigrant is called upon to repay a capital sum of 80/. instead of 60 /., end is cal'ed upon to pay 4 /. per annum, at the end of seven yeais, upon that capital of 8o{., being at the rate of 5 fc per cent upon it. The case, then, as between the lender and the Emigrant, supposing it to be an indiridual case, stands simply thus: 1 lend vou 60 A free of interest, for seven years, but as the colonial rate of interest is six per cent, I should be justified in calliii^ jpon you to pay 3I. ia«. for this sum at the expiration ofthe first year ; but as I with you to employ your means exclusively in improving vour land, I will remit you ail interett tot seven years, and tnen I will charge you with an interest of 4/. per annum instead of the sum cf 3 /. 1 a «. ; and at any time, if you choose to relieve yourself from this annual paynnent of 4 /. or parts of it, you may diminish it to the extent of 1 /. by every sol. that you pay by instalments in liquidation of the capi al debt of 8. 3. W P. Fdton, Esq. - - - 4. f -n, Esq. - - 5. Cq^ Marshall - . . . 6. J. Howe, Esq. .... 7. A. C. Buchanan, Esq. > - - S. E. P. Wagner, Esq. ... g. BIr. Roswell Mount ... 10. Capt Weatheriey .... ABSTTiACT OF ANSWERS. Thinks individuals would require an immediate return, but they cannot take more than 6 per cent, the legal mterett. Individuals would take compound interest. ^ Individuals would require hrger profit. - - . . D» - - - - V •I - . .. D» ' . . . . D. 4* D» •I WERS. 550. 3U3 1. il • 5^6 APPUNDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE N'l. Downing-street, igtliMay 1827. Mr. WiLMOT HoRToN woulcl l)e much obliged to Mr.Sewell, notwithstanding the Evidence which he has already given before the Emigration Cuinmittee, if he would be good enough to fumisl) him with written and specific Answers to the following Queries : QU£HT? First : — Taking the whole range of the North American Colonies, and reducing them to inc common average, do you think it would be safe to estimate the expense necessary for the satis- factory location of an Emigrant family, of a man, woman and three children, at less than £.60. per family, such expenie to be incurred after their landing at a colonin' port' ' Note : — Thi» query Involveii the supposition, that the ex- i)?nBe of passage is never to be incurred by Government^ but is, in all caset, to be paid by the parties iDtet'estedin the removal of a superabunaciit popu'ation, and that the Emi- grant's family have been approved of by an Agent appointed by Government to examine all proposed Emigrants. All the expenses and circumstances of the passage to be entirely independent of Government assistance or responsibility. No Emigrant would be entitled to Government assistance m the Colonies, who had no* received a voucher from a Govern- ment agent at home, that such Emigrant and family were proper subjects for receiving Government assistance. Answer: > 1 du not think tliat it would be safe to titimate the expense necessary for the satisfactory location of an emigrant family of five persons at less than £.60. per fninily, upon the common average to which this Qliestion refers. 1 W \ 11 Hi Query? Secondly: — Do you mainly concur in the ne- .Vo/*.— Something in the nature of this Schedule, appli- cessity of assistance, more or less in these pro- "»>'? «? t^^ "P*""* circumstances of the location of each „ .. •' . ., ,' f /• /?„ r • I. I .. \.u particular emigrant, would be delivered to him upon his portions, to the value of £. 60. furnished to .he \^„Ai„g. ^a Spon hispresenUng a voucher to the fimigra- Emigrant in the following proportions ? tion Agent at Uie Colonial Fort, showing that he fad been approved as an Emigrant, and upon hit expressing his wish Average Eiliniate of the Expente qfiettline a Familu, consist- »? receive this sort of loan in kinij. In cose of this occur- ing of one Man, one Woman, and three Children, in the ""? »>e would be called upon to sign the security adverted Brituh North American Provinces ; distinguishing the »? >" *e "^xt query, and then conveyed to his location at various itemt of Expenditure. '"^ Government expense. As two childien arj considered „ „ /. L _,.• .,.. equal t he expense of an adult, if the ftanily consisted of Expenses of conveyance from the port of disembarkation to ^ widower and Sve children, or in any other variety of pro- place of location - - - - £.10 - - portion, regulated by this principle of equiwdent, would not Provisions, viz. rations for 15 months for i man, ^^ ^^o. be equMlV nec^ry ? Evenr lot must have a 1 woman and 3 children, at i lb. of flour and working head of a family upon it, whomost become respon. ilb.ofpork for each adult, and half that sible for thflinterest. quantity tor each child, making 3 f rations per diem, pork being at £.4. per barrel and flour at £.1. 5;. per barrel - • - 40 6 10 ' Freight of provisions to place of settlement - 1 10 10 House for each family . . . . a _ - Implements, &c. , ■ 4 Blankets ---£.- 14 - • » 1 Kettle ------ 5 10 1 Frying-pan ... - 1 3 g^ 3 Hoes - 4 C ' '•" 1 Spade - 'i <) 1 Wedge ------ 1 4 / • , • . • I Auger .-.-.- 2 a 1 ri'-K-axe .... - 3 - .,: . ,t,„ ; ' 3 Axes -...-i,__ . Proportion of grindstone, , . wnipsiiw and cross-cut saw -14- Freight und charges on , <, ditto 15 per cent - - - 10 2 £■3 i8 - Q'^l^) £.4 6 9 Cow 4 10 - Medicines and medical attendance - - . 1 - _ Seed corn ...-.-16 , Potatoes, 5 bush, at 3 s. 6wing that he had been his expressing his wish In case of this occur- i the security odverted eyed to his location at dnildien vti considered tbe fkonily consisted of [»y other variety of pro- )f equivalent, would not Bvery lot must have a loorast become reipon. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION i-iSa;. ^a; QUFRY ? Thirdhf: — Do you consider that anv sort of practical difficulty will exist in taking an 'in- expensive and simple security from the Emigrant, both personal as well as a lien upon his land, for the payment of ^. 4. per annum interest, being at the rate of 5 per cent upon the sum of jf.8o. or in other words upon the sum of £. 60. improved by deferred interest for seven years to the sum of £. 80. interest being only calculated in that instance at >£. 4. per cent ? iVo/e .'—Every pains must be taken to explain to the Emigrant, that the acceptance of tlie loan is to b( entirely voluntary on his part, precisely the same 3s if any Individual in his own country had proposed, from motives of charity, to advance him b loan of equal amount, upon the same principle of repayment • V.A Answer: ' ..' '; '"'t'^' I do not. But, speaking particularly with f-Ttirence to Lower Canada, it will, in ray opinion, be iiecetiary by Legislative provisions to prescribe the form of the security to be given by each Emigrnnt for ihe amount he receives by way of loan ; to declare that lie shall be personally responsible for it ; and that the amount shall also be a charge upon the land located or granted to him until it is repaid with interest, whether such land remains in his own hands or be in the hands of a third person ; to declare also and to enact, that every such land, whether located or granted, and all improvements thereon, shal! at all limes be liable, nnd may be niken in execution and sold for the payment of interest due thereon ; that in the distribution of the proceeds of any sale of such land, in execution or otherwise, among the creditors of such Emigrant, the Crown shall be ranked as a privileged mortgage creditor, in preference to all others, for the amo«nt of the interest which may be diw upon the security given by such Emigrant; and that the land shall continue and remain charged in the hands ox the purchaser, (or the capital due upon such security (or the residue thereof if any part bns been paid) and for interest thereon, until such capital or such residue shall be entirely repaid. Query? Fourthly: — Do you consider that the Emigrant settler, if not called upon to pay any interest for the space of seven years, will have any difficulty whatever in affording to pay £. 4. per annum, at the expiration of that period, in money or money's worth, that is, in grain and pork of a meachantable quality, estimated upon a given principle of arbi- tration, such Emigrant having always a power at his own option of paying off the principal of {,- 80. in instalment, of £. 20. each, in money, until the whole of the original loan be discharged? \wts . Note : — The mode of estimating the value of the produce of the £^ ".icr's farm in money, would be by a simple esti- mate of market price, made under prescribed regulations in Colonies, and assessing produce with reference to such volue. .'»» . , ^»*f' ,.^ Answer: ^ If the Emigrant is induitrioni, is located upon good soil, and has access to a market for the sale of the surplus of his rgricuhural produce, he will, I think, be able (but not without difficulty) to pay 4/. per annum at the expiration of seven years from his first establishment, in money or in money's worth. nent, a'ld of the value : can only say, I see no Query ? Fifthly: — Are you of opinion that if this pro- position be adequately explained to the Pauper Emigrant, and if he be made conclusively to understand tb'::t it is not a rent for his land, but a payment oi interest upon a loan of money lent to him at his oxvn request, which loan has been advanced to him in kind and not in money, that he would be in any degree disposed to resist the pay- ment of this interest, it being explained to him, that at any time he has the power of exonerating him- • self from such payment, by the payment of jj^. 80. ? Answer : If the money advanced be received by an honest Emigrant, upon his own request, and by way of loan, to be repaid at his own convenience, he paying i^'erest thereon annually. I cannot apprehend that he would be dispose '. lO resist the payment of inter'^st when it had accrued and remained uue by him. Vote: — This questii might not appear more necessary to be put tc a Colonial witness than to any other witness ; but i.. s reference to the disinclination naturally felt to the payment of rent in countries under the circumstances of our North American Colonies, which contain an indefinite extent of waste land of fertile quality. 3U4 3«« APPENDIX TO THIRD R£PORT OF THB QUERT? iSixthlyi—lti case of the death of the Emigrant at any period during the seven years, or after it, do you thinic there would be any, doubt as to the value of the improved, land being an adequate security for the loan advanced upon? Halt:— Tor exaneplt, rapptwing tha iiMd of • fcoHW to die, Md the wife and cbildrea to amuiden the lot; weald ■■ JMOBiag tenant be able and wilUog to pay the interttt at Oie end of the w^ven yean, he ef coune availing Mniaelf of the i m protemeota that had taken place upea that particular leC Answer : Whether in this case the improTed land wonld or would not be an adequate aecnritj for the loan advanced, mntt depend to much upon the aum lent, and upon the extent and nature of the improTement in each par- ticular inatance, that I cannot venture to give a general auawcr u> thia question. It would of course be adequato in all cases in which the intrinsic value of the improvenenta would bear a reasonable comparison with the amount of tbe sum lent. Query ? Seventhly :—Ax6 ; of ^pinion that any sort of practical difficulty will be found in the levy of this interest, suppoviog such levy to be made under the directions of the Governor ? Answer : With the aid of the legislative provisions mentioned in my answer to the third question, I do not appre- hend that there would be any particular difficulty in levying, under the Gbvemor's directions, the interest as it became uue. V it it a Qurrt? Eighthly: — ^What would be the average ex- pense lier cent U|)on the collection of the interest ? Answer : I think it would not be less than six per cent; but my knowledge of the per centage usually allowed for such services in Canada, is too limited to enable me to speak on this point with certainty. Al M)/«.— The Colonies would benefit the productiona which might be tho result of I _ with the exception of tbe interests and repayments^ which must necessarily be a very tmall part of the actual wealth created, as is shown by the concurrent testimony of all the Colonial Wiipesaes. Query ? Ninthly: — Are you of opinion that there would be any sort of indisposition on the part of the Colo- nial Legislatures to give every facihty to the levy of this interest, in consideration of the extreme ad- vantages to the colony which must arise from the introduction of a regulated system of Emigration, a consisting of properly selected Emigrants at a proper period of life, who have left their own country under the circumstance of there being no demand for their labour ? ' Answer: I have before said, in answer to a similar question, that two branches of the legislature of Lower Canada would readily give every facility to ihf establishment of Emigrants in thut province; and I may now L>dd with safety, that they would be disposed to afford every aid in thojr power to secure the sum advanced Cc the Emigrants, and the payment ot interest thereon ; the other branch would probably be disposed (o do the same, but furtlicr 1 cannot say. ^ pel upi ex| an( SBLECT COMMITTBB ON EMIGRATION:— 18*7. m mi of • hmXh to ithtlot: weald w MT the interwt at tmilingUaNeirof ipe« that peitictiW! Quirt i TentMlv :-^T)o you conceive, in point of fact, , ^eto— IfMbdlividua»or«CoinpMi»liiV««'"**d*«»e«> .1 "t Vu^-- «~^-l «.<■ o.^. „»«:..« Jl^u^i »«. >k. £.100,000. one Mine or on a Canal, they would expect to that thi. proposal of advancing capital to the „eewi wi.r.rt upon their ca,,ital , but could thedoloaiit Emigranta, in other words to the Colony, diners* complain of •remittance to England of that iniareet. from any speculation which might be made of ad- vancing capital in any colonial enterprize, whether ' QD loan or in mines, for wliicb the capitalist would naturally reijiuire a remunerating interest f ; <.'r r , he loan advanced, iment in each par- coone be adrauau omparison with the Answer: I do not. There ia equally an advance of capital by way of loan in both caie*, and the rMolt in each is the lame. BD, I do not appre- :tiona, the interest as ;e nsnally allowed for ho resnlt of Buiigratipn, and repayments, which I of the actual wealth at testimony of all the QOERT ? EUvenlhly : — Whether in the instance of indi- viduals adva" ?ing their capital, a higher rate of interest would not be expected ; and whether such interest would not be expected to commence at a much earlier period than after the lapse ci seven years? Kete : — The proposition herein made is, to advance £.60. free of interest for seven years, and then to charge interest at the rate of i.6. 13«. 41/. per tent, that is, cl percent upon the original £.60 ; but as it is intended that tne mother Cfountry should sustain no ultimate lot iXf,./ T«kini» th« whnlfl rnnoa of thf North P*°»« «' !>•«••«• » »•»•' »» be incurred by Ooyemment, I \r»t .— "wng tne wnole range ot uie norm g;, ^ in'Maue,. to be iMid by the pwtiee literMted in the American Colonies, and reducing them to one removal of a luperabunibntpopuletlon, and thtt the Bmi- common average, do you think it would be safe grant's family have been mproMrfg^by an Ageatappoiated to estimate the expense necessary for the satis- "T Government to exambe all propoMd Emigraota. All faotnrv Inrntinn of an Fmiffrant fftmil v of a man *"• •''P«n«» "«> circumitancee of the paiMge to be entirely taclory location ot an «.migrani lamiiy, 01 a man, independent of Ooremment aMlitaMTor ratpomibiUt/. woman and three children, at less than £.bO. No Emigrant would be entitled to OoTeniaentaMiatance In per family, such expense to be incurred after their the Colonlea, who had not received a TondMrfiromaOoTem. ffndins at a colonial port i ■"""' ft*"* *' '">"■«• *^^ ***<='* Enignat and fiunily were ^ '^ proper tubjects for receiving Govemmeat aitittance. AirawxB : I am of opinion that the lum of £.60. iterlinff ii necessary foe the comfortable letUemeDt of ao emigrant family, coniiitinE of a man, woman, and three chudren, at an average t?.keii for the whole range of the North American Colonies, and supposing the pauper family to be taken up at the pjrt where they land. QUXKY f Secondly: — Do voj mainly concur in the ne- ATote.— Something in the nature of this Schedule, appU- cessityof wsistancf. more or Ie«. in these pro- "iJ? r^•mT^tt:^^ii::.?d• K^^^ portions, to the value of £. 60. furnished to the Unding; and upon his presenting a voucher to the Eniora- Emigrant in the following proportions ? tion Agent at tne Colonial Port, showing that ht had ietn ■ approved as an Emigrant, and upon his ixpressing his wish Avtrag»EiHm,teofth,F.xpetuetfteMingaFamay,conmt- '""«««»• *,!j f!" "^(JT" '" H'"t If. «se of tfi. occur- iagV one Man, one n^n.and three ChOdiin, in the ""?• ||f "»"'.* ^ called upon to sign the security adverted 3nAh North .fmeriean Provineet ; dMnguiehing the »? '" *• »««' I""/' •"* *«» !*"'*K1 *° ^ '•"*!?• *] „,H,t«,uifnu„fV.„s^in^,» the Government expense. As two children are considered varvmffmofE.ytnihture. equal to the expenibof an adult. If the family consisted of Eapenses of conveyai xe ftom the port of disembarkaUon t^ , widower and fiv» children, or in any other variety of pro- place of looauon - • •• fcio-- portion, regulated by this principle of equivalent, would not Provisiona, vis. rauons for 15 months for 1 man, ^he £.60. l>e equally necessary ? Eveiy lot must have a 1 woman and 3 chdilren, at 1 lb. of flow and working head of a family upon It, who roust become respon- lib. of pork for each adolt, and half that fj|,|e for the interest, quantity for each child, making 3{ rations per diem, pork being nt £. 4. per barrel and Qour at £. 1.5 «. per barrel • • • 40 6 10 Flreight of provisions to plact' of settlement • 1 10 10 House, fiw each fiunily • • • . a - - Implements, Ac. 4 Blankets • . • £,- 14 . ' 1 Kettle •••..- 5 10 1 Frjring.pan ... - 1 3 3 Hoes -46 1 Spsdo .•...-39 1 Wedge -t4 , 1 Auger ......at 1 Pick-aze . . . . - a - • Axes 1-- ,' Proportion of grindstone, wliipsAw and cross-cut , saw _ 14 _ . . Freight and charges on ditto 15 per cent . • - 10 a £-3»8 - (fflSJ;) ^-4 6 8 Cow 410- Medicines and medical attendance - . - 1 - - Seed com ....._i6 Potatoes, 5 bush, at at. Gd. • . - la 6 14 - Proportion of the expense of building for the depdt 1 - - Ditto for clerks, issuers, and surveyors to show the lott ..i5_ £.60. sterling is equal to - £.6613 4 Answxr: """"""""" As many Emigrants, particularly from Scotland, have a great horror at getting into debt, it might be expe- dient to advance them such portion only of this Schedule as they desired, charging them accordingly ; some, for example, may dispense with a cow, others may not require blankeU or cooking utensils j some, provisions for only tea or twelve months, &c. &c. 8cc. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION :-i837. S31 QoMY? TkMJif.'^Do you consider that any sort of practical difficulty will exist in takinc an un- expensive and simple security from the Emimnt, both personal as well as a lien upon his land, for the payment of £.4. per annum mterest, being at the rate of 5 per cent upon the sum of £. 80., or in other words upon the sum of £.60. improved by deferred interest for seven years to the sum of £.io., interest being only calculated in that instance at £.4. per cent? A^ot*.— Every pain* mutt be ukeii to eiplain to tlw Emignot, that the acceptuice of the loA b to be entirely voluntary on hie part, preciaely the lame as if any individual ia hia own country had propoeed, iVom motivee of charity, to advance him a loan of equal amount, upon the ume principle of repayment. Answbe: Great pains muit be taken to explain to the Emigrant the nature of the contract, and that the defemd iBtereit raisea the £.60. advanced to £.80; and, on being convinced that the tranuction it in every icspeet fair and equitable, he will readily give any security that may be demaadcd, for the repayment. Qosar? FourMy: — Do vou consider that the Emigrant settler, if not calledf upon t pay any interest for the space of seven ^ears, will have any difficulty whatever in affordmg to pay £.4. per annum, at the expiration of that period, in money or money's worth, that is, in grain and pork of a merchantable quality, estimated upon a given 4>rinciple of arbi- tration, such Emigrant having always a power at his own option of paying off the principal of £. 80. in instalments of £. 20. each, in money, until the whole of the orininal loan be discharged ? AM* ; — The mode of ettimating the value of the produce of the Settler's farm in money, would be by a simple esti- mate of market price, made under prescribed regulations in Colonies, and assessing produce with referencu to such value. ■ *%•■. Answer : There can be no reasonable doubt of the ability of the Emigrant Setder to pay £.4. at the expiration of seven years, in monev or marketable produce. Many will not only be able, but anxious, to commence their annual payments much sooner; it might therefore be wise to encourage such, by allowing the usual discoimt. iattalmects of £.5. and upwards should be taken in liquidation of the principal of £,80. QVERT? Fifthly: — Are you of opinion that if this pro- position be adequately explained to the Pauper ;:lmigrant, and if be be made conclusively to understand that it is not a rent for his land, but a payment of interest upon a loan of money lent to htm at hit own request, which loan has been advanced to him in kind and not in money, that he would be in any degree disposed to resist the pay- ment of this interest, it being explained to him, that at any time he has Uiu power of exonerating him- self from such payment, by the payment of £. 80. ? Not* : — This question might net appear more necessary to be put to a Colonial witness than to any other witness ; but it has reference to the disinclination naturally felt to the payment of rent in countries under the circumstances of our North American Coltmies, which contain an indefinite extant of waste Uuui of fertile quality. Answer : ' I am not of opinion that there would, in general, be any disinclination whatever to repay the loan ; but doubtless some individuxh would be found disposed to treat Goveu ..lent as they do their merchants ; the se- curity on the land would, in all such cases, be a sufficient protection. 3 X 2 t I iS« AITENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THK Quest? Surthtjf : — In caw of the death of the Emi^ant, at any period ikiring the seven yean, or utter it, do you think there would he any doubt aa to the value of the improved land t>eing an adequate Mcurity for the loan advanced upon ? Sot f:—VoT exunple, luppming ilie head of • family u dia, and the m\h and children tu abandon the lot i would aa incoming tanaot be able and willing to pay the intarcet at the end of the leven year*, he uf courto availing hinMelfoT the Improvemeitu that had taken place upon that particular lot. Ahsvkr : The land, with iti growing improvementi, will be a sufficient lecnrity. QUCHY? • Seventhly : — Are you of opinion that any sort of practical difficulty will be found in the levy of this interest, supposing such levy to be made under the directions of the Gqyernor ? Answer: I am not aware of any difficulty. From the nature of the transaction, the land is liable^ and tne OoTcnunent cohies in by law before any other creditor. ll ti fr t( Vll in ini a I yo I Query ? Eighthly: — What would be the average ex- pense per cent upon the collection of the mterest? Answer : In every township in Upper Canada, tliere is a person peripn might at the same time, without any nddiiional trouble, collect Ifit interest from the Emigrant Settlers at a small per ccntaoe upon actual receipts, perhaps £.5. per cent. If paid in kind, the produce of one acre will in general be sufficient, which the Emigrant ought to deliver at some public store or depdt. t^collect the local assessments; such t nft I A} n i 'I i IH i^-- Query ? Ninthly ;— Are you of opinion that there would be anysortof indbposition on the part of the Colo- nial Legislatures to give every facility to the levy of this interest, in consideration of the extreme ad- vantages to the colony which must arise from the introduction of a regulated system of Emigration, consisting of properly selected Emigrants at a proper period of life, who have left their own country under the circumstance of there being no demand for their labour? Answer: Note 1— The Colonies would benefit eMAuNeb from all the productions which might be the result of Emigration, with the exception of the interests and repayments, which must necessarily be a very tmatt fmrt of the actual wealth created, as is shown by the r«ncurrant testimony of all the Colonial Witnesses. mei crei ap 'S' I certainly think that the Colonial Legislatures would give any necessary facility for coPecting the interest and principal ; though it does not appear 10 me that any interference on their part can be reqaiied, aa the nature of the transaction gives ample legal security for repayment. * I: ^. '£^' iMtd of • family to m the lot ; would w pay the IntorMt tt tovMlinghimwirof upon that particular 8BLECT COMMITTEE ON BMIORATION:— 1817 ^5.1 ^0'* >~Ifanindividual or* Company in Eagland adtancml 1. 100,000. on a Mint! or on • Canai, ittoj^ would expect to raceive inttnd upon llicir capital ; but could thu Lotuniit complain of a ftmitlaneu to bnglaad of liiat iolarMt. Qi/ERr: Tenthly .'—Do you conceive, in point of fact, that this proposal of advancing capital to the Emigrants, in other words to tiie Colony, diftVrs from any speculation which might bt; made of ad- vancing capital in any colonial enterprize, whether * ' « "^ on loan or in mines, for which the capitalist would • , naturally require a remunerating interest ? - « ,, ^ . i. -ii .1.' Answer: The whole matter aiiumei the naliire and character of a private ipeciilation, and it daily proceeded upon in the Colony by the traders in the country partx, with much leat trcuriiy than i% here contenplaied. Such trader* often make advances to the nettleri nruuiid them, on their promise of repayment, truiting entirely to the fruiu of their industry. Some lossea are no doubt siiitainod, •• in other speculation*, but tlie*« trader* find it to answer very well on the whole. >nd tne Goveroment assessments ; such be Emigrant Settlers produce of one acre depdt. efit eaeluntAf from all ) result of Emigration, and repayments, which 4 of the actual wealth mt testimony of all the QUBHY : Eleventhly : — Whether in the instance of indi- viduals advancing their capital, a higher rate of interest would not be expected ; and whether such interest would not be expected to commence at a much earlier period than after the lapse of seven years? Answxr : Ifote .—The propoaition herein made is, to advance £. 60. free of interest tor seven years, and then to charge interest at the rate of £.6. 13$, 4 d. ftr etnl, that It, 6l per cent ttjpon the original £.60; but at it Is Intended that tne mother Country should tuttain no ultimate lou upon these loans, the Emiarant it called upon to repay a capital sum of £. 80. in- stead of £. 60, and is called upon to pay £, 4, per annum at the end of seven years, upon that capital of £. 80, being at the rate of 5 per cent upon it. The case, then, at between the lender and the Emigrant, tuppoaing it to be an individual cate, ttondt simply thus t — 1 lend you £. 60. Oree of interest for Mven yean, but a* the colonial rate of interest is six per cent, I should be justified in calliiw upon you to pay £.3. lar. for this sum at the expiration orthe first y ear ; but at I with you to employ your meant exclutively in improvinK your land, I will reimt you all iiUereit for teven years, ana then I will charge you with an interest of £.4. per annum, instead of the sum of £. 3. 13«.; and at any time, if you choose to relieve your- self from this annual payment of £.4. or parts of it, you may diminith it to the extent of £. 1, by every £. ao. that you pay by inttalmentt, in liquidation of the capital debt of £.80., that it of £. 60. improved to the value of £. 80. in consequence of seren year* deferred interest. In the Colony every advance of capital would be chareed with interest, (and this capital not money, but merchandize) at 6 per cent ; and if not paid at the end of the first year, it would be added to the principal, and create a new principal bearing interest at 6 per cent and so on, while the patience of the creditor coatioued, a patience wucb would teldom lail teven yearh iMJi .;-..f^t, i corecting the interest I be required, ai the '«.l . -v ' rt 1 ^ iMcJivV 550 3X3 5S4 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OP THB N* 3. Downiflg'ttraet, lath May 1817. Mr. WiLifOT HoRTON would be much obliged to Mr. Feltm, notwtUittiUMlIag the Evidence which he has ■Iready given before the Emigration Committee, if he would be good enough to fumiih him with written and tiiecific Autwen to Uie following Querieet Sth .— Thk qiMrjr IwwI»m th* luppotiUon, ikM Ik* tm- BMiM of pMMg* k rnmnt to be ineurrvd bv OovwimmbI, but it, in a// taim, te b« paid bjr Um partlM mtarMUd in the raoiovtl of • tupmbuiidul population, and that tha Eni* pant'i family hava baan a n pr w iarf (^ by an Agent appoinlad by Uoveromanl lo »%tmn» all propoMd EmigranU, All ina aspaniea and circumalancai or the paiaaf • to ba antiraly independent of Government aiiiitanc« or reiponiibllity. No Eruigrant would b« entitled to Government aMiMance In t!ie Col«wlaa, who had not received a vouelMr Awn a Govern- ment ageat at homa, that luch Emigrant and flunUy wata proper lubjacta for receiving Government Haittanea. Answeh: Judging by the result of Mr. P. Robinaon'i cxperimanli of 1813-5 in Vppn Canada, and, in the abtence of practical experience, of limilar operationt with other provincei, I consider that it will be safe to estimate the average expense at not less than £.60. per family : at the same time 1 am most decidedly of opinion that an expenditure lo this extent, under judicious management, ought to place the Emigrant in circumstances so exceedingly advantageous as to give the most absomte aMurance of complete succeu. Query? Firit : — Taking the whole range of the North American Coloniea, and reducing them to one common average, do you think it would be aafe to estimate the expense necessary for the satis- factory location of an Emigrant family, of a man, woman and three children, at less than /C.60. per family, such expense to be incurred after their landing at a colonial port r « QUEUT ? Secmdly: — Do you mainly concur in the ne- cessity of assistance, more or less in these pro- Eirtions, to the value of f,. 60. furnished to the migrant in the following proportions } Average Eitimale qftke Emente tfttftling a Family, cmitut- ing of one Man, one woman, and three Children, in the Brituh North American Provtncti; diuinguiehing the •ortoM kerne of Expenditure. Expenses of conveyance fVom the port of disembarkation to S lace of location - • • - £.10-- iions, vii. rations for 1 j months for one man, 1 woman and 3 children, at 1 lb. of flour and 1 lb. of pork for each adult, and half that quantity for each child, making 3^ rations per diem, pork being at £.4. per barrel and flour at £. I. 5 «. per barrel • - • 40 6 10 Fraight of provisions to place of settlement - 1 10 10 House for each family - • . . a _ - Implements, &c. £.-14 - - - - 5 10 -•-13 4 Blankeu I Kettle - 1 Frying-pan 3 Hoes - 4 I Spade - • I wedge .-...- 1 1 Auger -•-..- 9 1 Pick-axe .... - a 3 Axes ..... I - Proportion of grindstone, wnipsaw and crou-cut taw ...... height and charges on ditto, 15 per cent • • £.3^18 Cow Medicines and medical attendance Seed com .... Potatoes, 5 bush, at 31. 6<<. • Note : — Something in the nature of this Schedule, appli* cable to the special circumstances of the location of each fiarticular Emigrant, would be delivered to him upon bia anding ; and upon his presenting a voucher to the bmigra. tion Agent at tfie Colonial Port, showing that he had Iren approved as an Emigrant, and upon his expreuins his wish to receive this sort of loan in kind. In case o^tnis occur, ring, he would be callcil upon to sign the security adverted to in the next query, and then conveyed to his location at the Government expense. As two cnildren are considered equal to the expense of an adult, if the family consisted of a widower and five children, or in any other variety of pro- portion, regulated by this principle or equivalent, would not the £. 60. be eoualfy necessary 1 Every lot must have a working head ora family upon it, who must become respon- sible for the Interest. H . I H - 10 r^ul lov £.4 - 4 ' 1 6 8 10 - - I - n 6 6 Proportion of the expense of building for the dep6t Ditto for clerks, issuers, and surveyors to show the loU - 14 - 1 - - ' 5 £.60. sterling is equal to - £.66 13 4 Answer : As the Emigrant family is taken up by Government in a state of perfect destitution, and as the location of a large body of settlers together, all eaually desti. tute, implies the absence of a demand tor tneir la. hour, it follows that the food necessary for their sup- port, from the moment of landing in the colony until they have collected the produce of their first harvest, must be provided by Government ; and as this period may extend from fifteen to eighteen months, it will not be safe to calculate on the probability of their requiring a smaller quantity of provision than is ex- hibited in the Estimate: the impiemenis, &c. will not admit of diminution, and the expenses of con- veyance will necessarily vary in almost every par- ticular case. Any saving that may be eflfected in the progress of the undertaking will most probably arise from the diminished expenses of conveyance from the port of disembarkation ; and there can be no doubt that every succeeding operation which follows the track of the preceding year's Emigration will be conducted at a smaller expense of transport, in consequence of the improved facilities of communication. I I May i8S7. { the Evidence ough to furnuh Mition, ihaitlMM' id bv Qonmmmit, iM (bIimMmI in Um ud that the Emi- •n Agent appoin tad ■d Bmigranla. All iMage to b« antiraiy B or ratponiibilitv. mmant aMitlance In char flrom ■ Ooveni- 'UiandftmUjr wwa ml aMiftMiea. , in the abience of tfe to cttimate the f opinion that u I circumitancet to thli Schedule, appli- Ihe location of each rod to him upon hia uchcr to the bmigra- ing that Ac had Iten I eapretiiog hia with In caae oi^tnii occur- the lecunty adverted ed to hii location at iltlren are coniidered l)c family contitted of ' other variety of pro- equivalent, would not ery lot muit have a mutt become retpea- SELECT COMMllTEK ON EMIGRATION :>.iHi7. S» .'.'.. 1 up by Oovernment nd as the location of r, all eoually deati- emand tor their la- :es!)ary for their sup- ; in the colony until >f their first harveit, ; and as this period Ueen months, it will probability of their irovision tnan is ex- nplemenis, &c. will [le expenses of con- n almost every par- ed in the progreis of lably arise from the no doubt that every rill be conducted at ion. V««e;— Every pains must be takM in eiplain M liie F.migranl, that the arccptame of the loan ii to be entirel* voluntary on hU part, preciwiy ih« iame « if any in.iiviilual In ai« own country hiul projioMd, fnim moliveo of charity, to advance him a loan or a4)iMl ameuni, upon the principle of repayment. QUKHT P Thirdly : —Do you consider thtt any tort of practical difficulty will exiit in Ukina an un- txpeniive and limplc nrcurity from the Emigrant, both personal aa well u a lien upon bia land, for the payment of /,'. 4. per annum interest, being at the rate of 5 per cent upon the lum of £. 80. ur in other words upon the sum of £. 60. improved by deferred interest for seven years to the sum or C^o., interest being only calculated in that instaoco at £.4. per cent ? Answer: There cannot b« the smallest difficulty in taking the securities in question, in the provinces which cnjuj the benefit of the laws of England, ris. in Upper Cfanada, Nova Scotia, New Hrunswick, and I'rince Edward Island. It is aMumcd, in answering this Query, that ihe title to the land is conveyed to the Emigrant oa taking possession, subject lu a mortgage to the extent of the debt : no other process than the insertion of that enaasement in the Fatentof(i runt is necessary in those province. In Lower Canada, where the French law of property has been allowed to atuch to lands even held in free and common soccage, some difficulty would be found m making the King a privileged creditor without an Act of the Legislature. Perhaps an Act of the Imperial Parliament, providing for this specific case in a// the provinces to which the Government Emigration is extended, will be the safest course of proceeding. Not* : — The mode of estimating the value 01 the produee of the Settler's farm in money, would be by a simple esU- mate of market price, madi^ under prescriocd regulationa in Colonies, an.' assessing produce with reference to such value. QUERT ? Fourthly: — Do you consider that the Emigrant settler, if not called upon to pay any interest for the space of seven years, will have any difficulty whatever in aflfording to pay £.4. per annum, at the expiration of that period, in money or money's worth, that is, in grain and ptork of a merchantable * quality, estimated upon a given principle of arbi- tration, such Emigrant havmg always a power at ' . ' his own option of paying oflf the principal oi£. 80. in instalments of £. 'io. each, in money, until the , whole of the original loan be discharged ? ' Answer : From my own experience of the facility with which the needy Settlers, in the towu^hips in Lower Canada, pay the interest of the purchase-money for land, particularly when that annual ii erest u payable in produce, such as grain, pork or cattle, I am quite sure that no Emigrant settler, having received the assistance con- templated in the preceding Queries, and placed on land of medium quality, that is, of which one half is capable of bearing wheat or corn (maize,) will have the smallest difficnity whatever in paying £.4. per annum after the expiration of seven years. JVo(«;— This question mi^ht not appear more necessary to be put to a Colonial witness than to any other witness ; nut it has reference to the disinclination naturally felt to the payment of rent in countries under thc'circumstances uf our North American Colonies, which contain an indefinite extent of waste land of fertile quality. Query ? Fifthly: — Are you cf opinion that if this pro- position be adequately explained to the Pauper Emigrant, and if he be made conclusively to tmderstand that it is not a rent for his land, but a payment of interest upon a loan of money lent to him at his oum request, which loan has been advanced to him in kind and not in money, that he would be in any degree disposed to resist the pay- Answ . ;; ment of this interest, it being explained to hiin, that If F '" ;ir tand the sround of the alleged disinclina- at any time he has the power of exonerating him- »'on «' '" ^f"'*" '" America to pay quit-rents, it was ,elffriimsuchpayment,bythepaymentof^.8..? n^ri^'^'^mtt^^^^^ early settlement of the country possessed no marketable vaiut; added to this was the belief, that it was not intended to collect the quit-rents, and this belief was coniumed by the abstinence of the Crown for many years after the settlement of the Provinces. At present, th tre is no disinclination on the part of the aduaf pur'' chasers, who are Settlers, to the payment of the i.iteiest annually accruing on the purchase-money of the land tliey occupy, nor would any objection be made by Colonial Settlers to pay a quit-rent equivalent to the legal interest on the current price of the land purchased, particularly if it were redeemable at pleasure ; the real legal distinction between i\M quit-rent and the interest of the purtnate-money, which is, that one is a lien on the ^tate, and the other a mere personal debt, is unimportant to the mere Settler. In reply to the Question, I answer that the Settler, on arriving in the Provinces, will find the practice universal, and will therefore have no dislike to it as attaching to him alone ; he will consider the loan as a debt, for which he and all bis property (including his land as a matter of course) are responsible. 3X4 / l\\ 53^ APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE Query ? Sixthly .■'-Iq case of the death of the Emigrant at any period during the seven years, or after it, do you think tliere would be any doubt as to the value of the improved land being an adequate security for the loan advanced upon ? ^ot« -—The Colonies would benefit (jK/iMwd^'n that particular t will be |[teatly euively with the tances, the suiall ence the average ifficient improve- i will make it an erest at the usual ars and relatives, ihe father. Mi/«;— If an individual oraCompany in England advanced £. 100,000. on a Mine or un a Canal, thajtwould expect to receive interut upon their capital ; but could the Coioniit complain of a remittance to England of that intereat. Ja Query ? , Tenthly: — Do you conceive, in point of fact, that this proposal of advancing capital to the Emigrants, in other words to the Colony, differs from any speculation which might be made of ad- vancing capital in any colonial enterprize, whether on loan or in mines, for which the capitalist would naturally require a remunerating interest ? ■■'-'' • I Answeb : There is no difference in principle ; in point of fact the operation contemplated by Government possesses Uiit recommendation over individual speculations, that it only withdraws the simple interest of 6 per cent, whereas the capitalist would withdraw the full amount of his profits, however much they might exceed the common interest. The Colonies have been too long accustomed to owe the prosperity of their various enterprizes to the agency of British capital, to feel any dismclination to the payment and remittance of a reasonable remunerating interest. ,.J iu. tkeb in making the ■yj" it cannot be done jr be formed in the per centnge, or an , the amount of the pe for law expenses. ft otebL^ro^ ftwa all jresult of Emigration, U repaynientt, which r of the actual wealth Lt testimony of all the J every facility to the lat could be required, Iction of capital and Ind complaintt from Ion the part of those QOZRT ? Ekventkfy: — Whether in the instance of indi- viduals advancing their capital, a higher rate of interest would not be expected ; and whether such interest would not be expected to commence at a much earlier period than after the lapse of seven years? Note : — The proposition herein made is, to advance £. 60. free of interest for seven years, and then to charge interest at the rate of £.6. 131. ^d.per cent, that is, 6^ per cent upon the original £.60.; but as it is intended that the mother Country should sustain no ultimate loss upon these loans, th^ Emierant is called upon to repay a capital sum of £.80, in- stead of £. 60, and is called upon to pay £. 4. per annum at the end of seven years, upon that capital of £. 80, being at the rate of 5 per cent upon it. The case, then, as between the lender and the Emigrant, supposing it to be an individual case, stands simply thus : — 1 lend you £.60. free of interest for seven years, but as the colonial rate of interest is six per cent, I should be justiBed in calling upon you to pay £. 3. lit. for this sum at the expiration ofthe first year; but as I wish you to employ your means exclusively in improving your land, I will remit I you all interest for seven years, and then I will charge you < ^ with an interest of £. 4. per annum instead ot the sum of £. 3. 13 1. ; and at any time, if you choose to relieve your- self from this annual payment of £. 4. or parts of it, you may diminish it to the extent of £. 1 . by every £. so. that you pay by instalments, in liquidation of the capital debt of £. 80. that is of £.^0. improved to the value of £.80. in consequenca of seveii years deferred interest. Ansmtku : To avoid misconstruction, it may be necessary to state, that in the case of individuals advancing capital for the purpose of colonial enterprize, we profit anticipated isnotgovernedby any rate of interest allowed for the use of money in the Colonies. It is not possible to borrow money on the security of land, at the legal interest of six per cent ; nor is it usual for the capitalist to lend money for the accomplishment of dolonialspeculations. The ordinary mode of effecting an extensive operation is by the instrumentality of confidential agents, and the expectation of immediate and of large returns it the inducement for commencing every speculation requiring an advance of capital. W. B. Ftlton. '" I .- ■ - ... .<■■«. 550. 3 Y .....1 •■?t»V19E,-(*r»:».?»jwsip> 'U' 538 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE N«4. Downing-street, 19th May 1827. Mr. WiisMOT HoRTON would be much obliged to Mr. P. Robinson, notwithstanding the Evi- dence which he has already given before the Emigration Committee, if he would be good enough to furnish him with written and specific Answers to the following Queries : QuEKy? First : — Taking the whole range of the North American Colonies, and reducing them to one common average, do you think it would be safe to estimate the expense necessary for the satis- factory location of an Emigrant family, of a man, woman and three children, at less than £. 60. per family, such expense to be incurred after their landing at a colonial port ? Note: — This queiy inrolvet the auppoiition, that the ex- penie of puiage ii never to be incurred by Oovemment, but it, in all catu, to be paid by the perties inierMted in the removal of a superabundant population, and that the Emi- grant's family nave been opprmed of by an Agent appointed by Government to examine all proposed Emigraats. All the expenses and circumstances of the passage to be entirely independent of GoTemment assistance or reaponsiblliiy. No Emigrant would be entitled to Goveminent aaaistance in the Colonies, who had not received a voucher from a Govern, ment agent at home, that such Emigrant and &mily were proper subjects for receiving Government asaiitance. Answer : The experiments of 1823 and 1S25 have afforded mean opportunity of judging of the expense requisite for the satisfactory location of five persons in the British North American Provinces ; and I am most decidedly of opinion, that after they are landed in the Colony, it will require on an average /. 60. to establish a pauper family, of one man, one woman, and three children, in such a manner as will enable them to provide for them> selves by the produce of the land they may be placed on. f M ,f Pt QUERT ? Secondly : — Do you mainly concur in the ne* cessity of assistance, more or less in these pro- Jiortions, to the value of £. 60. furnished to the Emigrant in the following proportions ? Average Eitimate ffthc Expente qfiettlinga Family, eomittf ing of one Man, one Woman, and three Children, in iKe Brituh North American Prooineeii dittinguuhing the varioui itemt of Expenditure. Expenses of conveyance from the port of disembarkation to place of location - - - - ^.10-- Provisions, viz. rations for 15 months for 1 man, 1 woman and 3 children, at 1 lb. of flour and lib. of pork for each adult, and half that quantity for each child, making 3{ rations Ser diem, pork being at £.4 per barrel and our at £.1. 5 «. per barrel - - - 40 6 10 IVeight of provisions to place of settlement • 1 10 10 House for each family - - - • -a-- Implementf, &c. 4RlankeU . • - £.■ 1 Kettle ...-•■ 1 Frying-pan . - - ■ 3 Hoes 1 Spade - - - » Wedge - - - I Auecr - • - 1 Pick-axe - - 9 Axes - - - Proportion of nindstonc, wnipsaw and cross-cut »4 5 I 4 3 1 » 9 • 1 - - U - Freight and charges ditto, 15 per cent on - 10 9 £.3 18 Cow - - - ' - Medicines and medical attendance Setd corn .... Potatoes, 5 bush, at 9 1. 6 d. - • - 1 - 19 6 6 4 4 1 10 Froportion of the expense of building for the dep6t Ditto for clerks, issuers, and surveyors to show the lou - 14 - 1 - - 1 6 £. 60 sterling is equal to - £.6613 4 Answer: An absolute pauper family will require all this as- sistance. The items of expenditure will necessarily vary, as the price of provisions, the transport to their location. If settled in Lower Canada or New Brunswick, the expense of scndins a family to their final setilement must b« much less than if they are sent 500 miles to Upper Canada to be located. Nfte: — Something in the nature of this Schedule, appli- cable to the special circumstances of the location of each particular Emigrant, would be delivered to him upon bia landing ; and upon his presenting a voucher to the £mina- tion Agent at the Colonial Port, showing that he had been approved as an Emigrant, and upon his expressing his wish to receive this sort of loan in kind. In case of this occur- ring, he would be called upon to sign the security adverted to in the next query, and then conveyed to his location at the Government ei^peose. As two children are considered equel to the expense of an adult, if Uie family consisted of a widower and five children, or in any other variety of pro- portion, regulated by this principle of equivalent, would net the £. 60. DC equally necessary ? Every lot must have a working head of a family upon it, who must become respon* sible for the interest. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION i^iSs;. 539 ih May iSa?- tanding the Evi- good enough to MtitioD, that the cx- ■ed by OoTenunmit, ties intereitad in the , and that the Emi- r an Agent appointed led Migrant*. All pauage to be entirely ce or reaponiibilily. emment aatistance m ucher firoui a Govern* ;rant and binily were tent aMriitance. Kpente requiaite for n most decidedly of establish a pauper to provide for them- jyb*« .—Every pains mutt be taken to explain to the Emigrant, that the acceptance of the loan is to bo entirely voluntary on hi* part, prcciaely the same A if any individual in his own country had proposed, from motives of charity, to advance him a loan of equal amount, upon the same principle of repayment. Query? Thirdly: — Do you consider that any sort of practical difficulty will exist in taking an un- expensive and simple security from the Emigrant, both personal as well as a lien upon his land, for the payntc:it of ^. 4. per annum interest, being at the rate of 5 per cent upon the sum of £. 80., or in other words upon the sum of ^. 60. improved by deferred interest for seven years to the sum q{^, 80., interest being only calculated in that instance at H. 4. per cent ? Answer: The repayment of the money can be secored by taking the Settler's bond for the amount at the time of his location; and the Government might withhold the deed until half the sum advanced was paid, when a mort- gage on the land might be taken for the remainder. The terms of the loan would soon be understood by the Emigrant, and I have no doubt gladly accepted. f this Schedule, appli- >f the location of each ered to him upon hia voucher to the £mina- wing that ht had OMn hit) expressing his wish In case of this occur- (1 the security adverted veyed to his location at children are considered die family consisted of ay other variety of pro- )f equivalent, would nat Every lot must have a to must become respau* N<^ .-—The mode of estimating the value of the produce of the Settler's farm in money, would be by a simple esti- mate of market price, made under prescribed regulations in Colonies, and assessing produce with reference to such value. Query ? Fourthly :— Do you consider that the Emigrant settler, if not called upon to pay any interest for the space of seven years, will have any difficulty whatever in affording to pay ^. 4. per annum, at the expiration of that period, in money or money's worth, that is, in grain and pork of a merchantable quality, estimated upon a j{iven principle of arbi- , ," ,' ' ;'''■"■,'"■ ^• tration, such Emigrant having always a powjr at ' ' ' ,, ..' • '' . his own option of paying off the principal of jf. 80. ... . in instalments of ^.30 each, in money, until the '"^ whole of the ori^nal loan be discharged ? Answer: ' That the Emigrant will be enabled to pay the amonnt advanced him at the end of seven years, in the manner proposed, I think certain ; and it must be equally apparent to an^ person who will examine the Return of the Improvementa made by the Settlers of 1825, the first year after their location. Receiving merchantable produce in discharge of the loan, will be very grateful to the settler. Query ? Fifthly : — Are you of opinion that if this pro- position be adequately explained to the Pauper Emigrant, and if he be made conclusively to understand that it is not a rent for his land, but a payment of interest upon a loan of money lent to him at his own request, which loan has been advanced to him in kind and not in money, that he would be in any degree disposed to resist the pay- ment of this interest, it being explained to him, that at any time he has the power of exonerating him- self from such payment, by the payment of j^- 80.? Note .-—This question might not appear more necessary to be put to a Colonial witness than to any other witneM ; but it has reference to the disinclination naturally felt to the payment of rent in countries under the circumstances of our North American Colonies, which contain an indefinite extent of waste land of fertile quality. ill require all this as- liture will necessarily the transport to their family to their final ited. Answer:^ I seeno reason to anticipate any resistance on the part of the Emigrant to the payment of this interest; nn the contrary, I think a more intimate knowledge of the Colony will convince him that he could in no other way have received the same benefits upon such favourable terms. 3Y2 i 64» APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE Query ? Sixthly: — In case of the death of the Emigrant at any period dbring the seven years, or after it, do you think there would be any doubt as to the value of the improved land being an adequate security for the loan advanced upon ? Note. —VoT example, tuppotiDs the head of • fluniW to die, and the wife and cliildr«n to anandon tha lot; would an an incoming tenant be able and willing to pay tlie intereit at the end of the levenyeari, be of coune availing liimtelf of the improvement* that had taken place upon that parti- cular lot. Answer: The additional value the land would acquire by being in the midst of a lettiement, at the end of leren years (or sooner) would in most cases afford ample security. , Query? Seventhly : — Are you of opinion that any sort . ' of piractical difficulty will be found in t'y levy of this interest, supposing such levy to be made under the directions of the Governor? Answer: Moiie whatever; if paid in kind, the parties should bind themselves to the delivery of it at some town or village situated ou a lakt or navigable river communicating with the St. Lawrence, or olher great oudet. V ii if a Query? Eighthly: — What would be the average ex- - pense per cent upon the collection of the interest? > Answer: If paid in kind, some additional expense would be incurred in the storage ; the collection micht be made for five per cent. The parties would be desirous of paying half their debt, in oroer that they might get the deed for tneir land, and become freeholders ; and afterwards equally anxious to get rid of 'he incumbrance cf the mortgage. Ai Query ? ~Ninthly: — Are you of opinion that there would be any sort of indisposition on the part of the Colo- nial Legislatures to give every facility to the levy of t|iis interest, in consideration of the extreme ad- vantages to the colony which must arise from the introduction of a regulated system of Emigration, consisting of properly selected Emigrants at a proper period of life, who have left their own country under the circumstance of there being no demand for their labour ? wo bai Mrfe.-— The Colonies would benefit ejK^Miveiy from alt the productions which might be the result of Emigration, with the exception of the interest* and rep&ymenta, which must necessariJv be a vtry mall part of the actual wealth created, as is shown by the concurrent testimony of all the Colonial Witnesses. Answer: . I have no doubt but that the Colonial Legislatures would readily provide such facilities as might be required to secure the Government in the collection of the money advanced to the Emigrants. 55 SBLBCT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION:— 1817. 54» Ii«ad of • fluniW to athalot; would in to pay tiie intetett ir»e8»«iluigliin««e|f «• upon that parti- nd of term yean imgmimi Nol«:—l{ ar individual or a Company in England ad- vanced £.100,000 on a Mine or on a ^nal, they would cxnect to receive itittreit upon their capitai; but could the Coloniit conplaln of a remittance to England of that in- tereet. QUXKT ' Tenthfy : — Do you conceive, id poin( of fact, that this proposal of advancing capital to the Enipants, in other words to the Colony, differs from any speculation which might be made of ad- vancing capital in any colonial enterprize, whether cm loan or in mines, for jrhich the capitalist would naturally require a remunerating interest ? ' AirswKH : It differ*, inaimuch that an individual or a company, in advancine their capital on the speculation of a mine ^ir a canal, would expect more than the usual interest, or they would not engage in it ; whereas in this instance, the Government have no such view, but merely calculate upon the repayment of the money advanced, with a remunerating interest. it at some town or great oudet. .. might be matile for might get the deed incumbrance cf the efit esdtuiveljf from all reiult of Emigration, tnd reptiymentt, which of the actual wealth mt teitimony of all the Query ? Eleventhtf : — Whether in the instance of indi- viduals advancing tieir capital, a higher rate of interest would no; be expected; and whether such interest would not be expected to commence at a. much earlier period than after the lapse of seven years ? ATofe.'^The proposition herein made is, to advance £,60. free of interest for seven years, and then to charge interest at the rate of £.6. 131. ^d. ptr cent, that is, 6\ per cent upon the original £.60; but as it is intended that the mother Country should sustain no ultimate loss upon these loans, the Emisrant is called upon tu repay a capital sum of £. 80. in- stead of £.60, and is called upon to [Kty£.4. per annOm a*, the end of seven years, upon that capital of £. 80, being at i the rati) of 5 ner cent upon it. The case, tnen, as between the lender and the Emigrant, I supposing it to be an individual case, stands simp'y thus: — I lend you £. Go. free of interest for seven yt j, but as the colonial rate of interest is six per cent, I should be i . justified in calling upon you to pay £.3. 13 «. for this sum at the expiration of the first year; but as I wish you to employ your means exclusively in improving your land, I will remit ', . you all interest fur seven years, and then I will charge you with an interest of £.4. per annum instead of the sum of £.5,191.; and at any time, if you choose to relieve your- self from this annual payment of £.4. or parts of it, you may « .' , ' diminish it to the extent of £. I. by every £.30, that you pay by instalments, in liquidation of the capital debt of £.80. that is, of £.60. improvra to the value of £,80. in consequence of seven years deferred interest. Answer ; In the Colonies a higher rate of interest would be required, and has been paid ;' and I do not think individuals would be found willing to advance maney upon the terms proposed ; if tt-< i are such, sufficient opportunities have been presented by the late voluntory Emigrations to bring them forward. P. Robinnn. 33d May 1837. might be rtqaired -;.;*,*-. 550. 3 Y3 54« APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE N«5. Downing-ftreat, 19th May 1827. Mr. WiuMAM HoRTON would be much obliged to Captain Marthali, notwithstanding the Evidence which h.) has already f^ver^ before the Emionition Committee, if he would be good enoiigb to fuiiiish him wit'i written and -:j.eci Answers to the following Queries : Nott.'—Thit i fiittit.tjncr os >«iponaibility. No Emigrant would be entUk d tr- (}ot'^!rRme<,t U8iitrinr-« fh the Colonies, who had not 1 txm tC n voucher fi^ji.-'. a C < vorn* ment agent at home, thai «u:h r)»U';t'.»Dt avtl flunily were proper lubjecta for recei\isj{ IsO'. >.;.ii.B«it af«i)taacr. Query? first .—Taking the whole range of the North American Colonies, and reducing them to one common average, do you think it would be safe to estimate the expense necessary for the satis- factory location of an Emigrant family, of a man, woman and three chil'tren, at less than £.60. !)er family, such expense to be incurrt vl after their anding at a colonial port? AfffSVER S From my experience, as the Superintermlent of the Lanari; Settlcfncnt, ItaowledRe of Seltlements in that country, I am of cpii.'on th-it the sum of five persons, is viccessary for the satisfacton- settlement of Esnigrants in fJpper or ] of the two Colonies. I am not acquainted wiilj New Bi imsv/ick or Novu Scotia- fi Canarls, ^nd i -^.a« gfjur.j 6(1 steel i ug fo: each fai.r.i!y of Lvmet Canada, on an average QUIHT? Secondly : — Do you mamly concur m the ne- peasKV of assistance, mon; or If-.ss in these p 0- portionc, to the vplue of C.&o. furnished to the Emigrant in the fbilowing proportions? Average Ettimate oft, 1 I'lfifm^ ■■/ncilHng a Fnuily, coniiit- ing of one Man, one Wn-nim, j << o \ Frying-pan - - - - » 3 3 Hoes - 4 6 1 Spade - « 9 1 Wedge - » 4 1 Aueer ------«» I Pick-axe .----«- a Axes -----i-- Proportion of grindstone, whipscw and cross-cut saw --•-•-- 14- Freight and charges on ditto, 15 per cent - - 10 a £•3 >8 - (3SL*;) i.4 6 8 Cow - -,*■." • • • 4 >o - Medicines and medical attendance - - - t - - Seed corn \ " ' ' ' ~ ' ^ Potatoes, 5 bush, axii.bd. • --no 14 - Proportion of the expense of building for the dendt i -. - Ditto for clerks, issuers, and surveyors to show the lots ■ " -»5- £.60. sterling is equal to • £.6613 4 Not^: — SoTpr-hing h: f\\t natinsof thu SchAr. Jle, ^u- cable to t')B sp(;ciitl circiuaiii'inces of the loca 'i:>n of each f (articular Emigrant, woutd be deasrvTri^ to bun upon hia anding; and ii^ quality, estimated upon a given principle of arbi- tration, f^uch Emigrant havmz always a power at , .' his own option of paying off the principal of ;£. 80. •• .....:....,. . „' in instalments of ;^. 20. each, in money, until the •. • i, whole of the original loan be discharged ? < .^ Answsu: I am of opinion that the Emigrant will at the end of seven yeart find no difficulty in paying the interest of the money advanced in the manner here stated, giving him the power of extinguithing the debt by intialmenti, which I think thould be taken in payments as Jew, at least, at hve poi^nds. Many of the Settlers located by me in 1820 and 1821, are now offering partial payments in produce. assistence to the extent quired to insure a tatis- who would thereby be :s in a future reaionable hat the Emigrant thall itances enabling him to Government. Note: — This question might not appear more necessary to be put to a Colonial witness than to any other witness ; but it has reference to the disinclination naturally felt to the payment of rent in countries under the circumstances of our North American Colonies, which contain an indefinite extent of waste land of fertile quidity. QUERT ? Fifthly: — Are you of opinion that if this pro* position be adequately explained to the Pauper Emigrant, and if he be made conclusively to understand that it is not a rent for his land, but a payment of interest upon a loan of money lent to him at hi* own request, which loan has been advanced to him in kind and not in money, that he ^ would be in any degree disposed to resist the pay- • mentofthisinterest,it being explainedto him,that at any time he has the power of exonerating him- self from such payment, by the paym^t of j^. 80? t • ■ ■ Answkb : * • I caonot suppose it, for, as before stated, many of the people under my charge, who obtained their first crops in i8ai and 1833, are now offering payments. 3Y4 S44 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE QUXRY ? Sixlhfy : — In case of the death of the Emigrant at any period during the seven years, or after it, do you think there would be any doubt as to the value of the improved land being an adequate security for the loan advanced upon ? iVote;— For nanple, luppMinc the h«Mi of • fiMBily t« die, and th« wife and children to abandon tho lot ; wonui aa incoming tenant be able and willing to pay the btereet at the end of the leven yean, he of couria availing MuMlf of the inprovemeau that had taken place upon that particalw lot. Answer : I am of opinion there can be no doubt as to a deterted lot being luflicient security for the money orinoally advanced, provided the soil is of an average good quality. In the Lanark Settlement some abandoned lots were taken up by other emigranis, on terms of paying the debt due to Government by the original grantee. Query? Seventhly : — Are you of opinion that any sort of practical difficulty will be found in the levy of this interest, supposing such levy to be made under the directions of the Governor? Answer : I think no practical difficulty could arise, care being taken to adopt the necessary legal steps. QUEHT ? Eighthly: — What would be the average ex- nense per cent upon the collection of the interest ? Answer: I think merchants or storekeepers in that part of the country would be found to make the collections, if in money, at 5 per cent. il Query? Ninthly : — Are you of opinion that there would be any sort of indisposition on the part of the Colo- nial Legislatures to give everj' facility to the levy of this*interest, in consideration of the extreme ad- vantages to the colony which must arise from the introduction of a regulated system of Emigration, consisting of properly selected Emigrants at a proper [leriod of life, who have left their own country under the circumstance of there being no demand for their labour ? Note .-—The Colonics would benefit exettuiaify ftom all the productions which mi^bt be the result of Emigration, with the exception of the interests add repayments, which must necetHiarily be « «>erw imall part of the actual wealth created, as is shown by tKe concurrent testimony of all Ibe Coluuial Witnesses. Answer: I do not think that the Colonial Legislature would feel any indisposition towards giving facilities In the collection of these monies. mthalott wouMm pay the tot«r«« •« apontlMtpwticalir SELECT COMMITTEB ON EMIGRATION i-^Rs;. 549 QlTBET i TttUhly: — Do you conceive, in point of fact, that this proposal of advancing cauiul to the Emigrants, in other words to the Colony, differs fromtny speculation which might be made of ad- vancing capiul in any colonial enterprise, whether on loan or in mines, for which the capitalist would naturally require a remunerating interest? * ATcrfc— If M individual or • Compujr in England advanced £. 100,000. on a Mine or on a Canal, mj would expect to receive inlrrttt upon their capital ; but could the Coloniit mnplain of a renittance to England of thai intereit. 4 le money originally iermt of paying the ANSWgK : I caanot we any points of difference in the principle of theee two case*. itept. ake the collections, if QUKHY ? Eleventhly : — Whetlier in the instance of indl- , ^«t* .—The propoiitien herein made ii, to advance £. 66. yiduals advancing their capital, a higher rate of [rthf Sirof S.Ta ?. rr;;.rJ:\;:: ?^^^^^^^^^^^ interest would not be expected ; and whether such „po„ the original £. Go -, but as it i> intended that the mother interest would not be expected to commence at Country should iuatain no ultimate loss upon thcaeloana, the a much earlier period than after the lapse of seven Emigrant i» called upon to repay a capital sum of £. 8o. in- ^ ' itead of £.00, and ir called upon to pay £4. per annum at ^^^* ' ■ the end of leven yean, upon that capital of t. 80, being at ' the rate of 5 per cent upon it. % ^ The case, tnen. Is between the lender and the Emigrant, ' supposing it to be an individual case, stands simply thus; — 1 lend you £. 60. free of interest for seven years, but as the colonial rate of interest is six per rent, I should be Justified in calling upon you to pay £. 3. 13<. for this sum at the expiration of the first year ; but as I wish you to employ your means exclusively in improvine your land, I will remit you all intereit for seven years, and then I will charge you with an interest of £.4. per annum instead of the sum of £.3. la J.; and at any time, if you choose to relieve your- • ' aelf from thia annual payment of £.4. or parts of it, you may * ~ diminish it to the extent of £. 1 . by every £. io. that you pay by instalments, in liquidation of the capital debt of £.80., that ia of £.60. improved to the value or£. 80. in consequence of seven years deferred interest. AN8V£U: .... I think no individuals wonid advance capital on such terms, as it would not be sufficiently profitable, and they certainly would expect the interest to be paid yearly from the commencement. Pains must be taken to explain and make the Emigrant fully understand the cause of his paying the £. 4. per annum in place of £. 3. in consequence of the interest for the first seven years being deferred. London, au May 1837. fV. MarOall. BtbtetebuioiljfftmiSi he reault of Emigranon, •ltd repayments, which —trt of the actual w-eaWi Tentteatimonyofalllhe « living facilities In the 550- 3 Z M« APPENDIX TO tHIRD REPORT OP THE N' 6. Downing-strcct. ^thMByi8vi7. Mr. WiLAOT HoRTON would be much obliged to Mr. Howe, notwithntunding the Evidcnvo which he has already given before the Emigration Committee, it' he would be goo>« Incurred by OovimiiMnt, but I), III aU tarn, to !>• puiil by the pnrtiei inttreiiMl la ib« removal of a lupcrshuntlant population, and that iht Eml- grant't family have been approvtd of by an Agent appointed by Uovernment to examine all nropoied Einigranla. All tlie expentei and circuroitancet or the pauage to hi entirely independent of Government aKiataiica or r«tp«aiibi|itv. No Emigrant would be entitled to Government aiaiitancem the ('oloniei, who had not received a voucher from a Uovem* ment agent at home, that luch Emigrant and fiipil}' wert proper lubjects ftir recciviog Government aiiiitance. Answer: I think the Eitirimle a fuir one. The Einigranli should leave this country in March, and be aislKted with proviiioni for eighteen months after titeir arrival in America ; tlicy would then receive reiurni to dieic exertions from their lands, and their comforts would every succeeding yenr be increaied by their industry. 4 Query ? Secondly : — Do you mainly concur in the ne- ceuity of assistance, more or less in these pro- portions, to the value of £. 60. furnished to the Emigrant in the following propoyions ? AviTtgt EtUmate of the Etpeiue ofttttling a Family, eontUt- ing of on* Man, one Woman, and three Children, in tit Briiuh North American Province*; dittingaiiking M« ■ MriONi itemi of EtpendUure. ExpensM of conveyance from the port of disembarkation to place of location - • - - A. to - - Provisions, viz. rations for 15 mnnhs for 1 roan, I woman and 3 children, at 1 il). of flour and I lb. of pork for each adult, and half that '^' quantity fur\ach child, making 3 1 ration* Serdiem, pork being at £.4. per barrel, and our at £.1. 5t. per barrel - - - 40 fl 10 Freight of provisions to place 0^ 'tlament - 1 10 10 House for eoch family •-- Implements, tte. 4BIankeU - • • £.- 14 - r 1 Keule - 6 »o 1 Frying-pan ----is 3 Hoes -40 1 Spade - • 9 1 wedge --.-•.- 1 4 7 I Auger - a 9 I Pick-axe ----- a - 3 Axca 1 - - Proportion of grinditone, wnipsaw and cross cut saw - 14 - Freight and charges on ditto, 15 per cent . - - to « £.3 18 Caw - .r . " . " Medicines and medical attendance Seed com . -. - - Potatoes, 5 bush, at .1 ». 6d. ■- Note : — Something in the nature of this Schedule, oppli- cablo to the special circumttancrs of the location of each fiarticular Emigrant, would he delivered 10 him upon his snding ; and upon his pretcnting a voucher to the Emigra- tion iVgent at tne Colonial Port, showing that he had teen approved as an Emigrant, and upon his expressing his wish to receive this sort of loun in kind. In coae of this occur- ring, he would be called upon to sign the security adverted to in the next query, and tlien conveyed to his location at the Government expense. As two children are considered equal to the expense of an adult, if the family consisted of a widower and nve children, or in any other variety of pro- portion, regulated by this principle of equivalent, would not the £.60. be equally necessary r Every lot mutt have a working head of a family upon it, who jnust become respon- sible for the interest. (JSL'n sC-4 6 8 - 4 10 - - 1 6 - IS 6 - 14 - Proportion of the expense of building for the depfit 1 Ditto for clerks, issuers, and surveyors to show the loU > 5 - , £.60. sterling is equal to - £.66 13 4 stitutid for half the contemplated supply of ilour and of potatoes at t«. Gd. per bushel, and cured fish at 13 should l>e made to the list of implements. Answer : I concur in the necessity of assistance, more or less, if the Emigrants land in Nova .Scotia or New Brunswick, the expense of their conveyance from the port of disembarkation to their place of location (if they are lani^ed as near as tliey may he to their in* tended place of Ideation) would not dmount to more than five pounds. The sum appropriated to their support foi fifteen months, would be sufficient fur eighteen months, if potatoes and cured fish were sub- pork; contracts might be entered into for the supply I. perquin' I, iislbs. 1 diink some trifling additi«H)s SELECT CUMMIITEB ON EMIGRATION:— iH];. 547 ih May iRj?- ig ihe Evidence nough to fumUh lOiition, itiM th« ti- red by Oovtmmtni, ttie* int«r«iilid In ih« n, and that «h« £"»'- ^ an Agent ippointed ••d Einigrtntt. All pMuge 10 1>« entirtljr c« or retpoMibi^tjr. rernment auUtMcc in ucher from ■ Govern- ant and f^^ily w«r« lent aMiitance. Dd be (livinted «>•>> nil to the if exertion* iitry. f thi> Schedule, flppH- ' the location of each ;red to him upoii hh rouelier to the EmiRra- iwing that he had been hli fxpreuing hi» wiih In ca»e of thi» occur- in the iecurlty adverted >eyed to hii locttlinu at children are con»idered the family coniiited of uy other variety of pro- of equivalent, would not Svery lot niutt have • to juiut become reipon- -Uo you contkier UmI any tort of A^e(«.— Every paini mutt be taken lo explain to tke Emigrant, that the acceptance «(■ the lulu ia to l>« aniirttly —!..». ki :. , the , am. a« If liny indivi.lual (I, from niutiv (• uf cburity, equal amuuiit, upoa the uine principle of repayment. practical difficulty will exiit in takins an un- J;"„'U|J"'„„ "i, " •'^'=•1"^" "J expensive and simple ecurlty from the Kmlurant, '"^ ownTountrThaT^oIll^ca both personal as well as a lien upon his land, for to advance him a loan of aqua the payment of £, 4. per annum inter* lieing at the rate of 5 per cent upon the sura > ;;,.8o., or in other words upon the sum of C' ^O' improved by defurreit interest for seven ycnra to the sum of iC-8o, interest being only calculated in that * t ■ instance at j^. 4. per cent ? • - - Answim : Previou* to the Emigrant Inking poMeiiion of the land aiaigned to him, Itu ihould sub*cribe to the terms to be imposed upon him, which terma should hf. prcciH-ly embodied in hia Grant, mid their I'uliiluient made one (if iti eruditions ; the Crown would tiiui be completely secured for the advance made. Sett .-.—The mode of estimating the value of the produce of the Settler's farm in money, would be bv a simple esti- mate of market price, made under prescribed regulations in Colonies, and isaesiing produce with reference to such value. Qi;eht ? ' Fourthly : — Do vou consider that the Emigrant settler, if not called upon to pay any interest for the space of seven years, will have any difficiil»y whatever in aifording to pay £, 4. per annum, at the expiration of that period, in money or money's worth, that is, in grain and pork of a merchantable quality, estimatea upon a given principle of arbi- tration, such Emigrant having always a power at bis Qwn option of paying off the principal of £. 80. in instalments of £. 30. each, in money, until the whole of the original loan be discharged ? Answer : Tiiis much depends upon the character of the Emigrant ; if he is honest nnd induitrioiu, I am confident that at the end of seven years he would have no difficulty in complying with the ternif prescribed. . .1 If assistance, more of I Nova .Scotia or New |r conveyance from the_ place of location (if r may be to ilieir in* u not amount to more fappropriaied to their lould be sufficient for U cured fish were sub- led into for the supply [some trifling nddiiions Note .-—This question might not appear more neceesarr to be put to a Colonial witneia than to any other witness; but it has reference to the disinclination naturally felt to the payment of rent in countries under the circumscancea of our North American Colonies, which contain an iod^nite extent of wuta land of fertile quality. -- ' 'V.'- QUEBT ? Fifthly : — Are you of opinion that if this pro- position be adequately explained to the Pauper Emigrant, and if he be made conclusively to^ understand that it is not a rent for his land, but ' a payment of interest upon a loan of money lent to him at his own requut, which loan has been advanced to him in kind and not in money, that he ^ ,^ would be in any degree disposed to resist the pay- , . , f . ment of this interest, it being eiplained to him, that ^ >' at any time he has the power of exonerating him- ,'. . , '. ^ , ., self from such payment, by the payment of ;C. 80? ; '!,•..., " : * » - , • . • . ^, Answer: It is right that the Emigrant should fully understand the terms upon which he ii to enter upon the land assigned to hiift ; but I am satisfied no honest industrious Settler would resist paying, or be unable to pay, the jaterest required uf him, 3Z2 S r-SaBai P^ iSifiSiAj 54» APPENOrX TO THIHI)^ RBFORT OF THE QUKRV? Sirlhly: — In case of the death of the Emiffranl, at any period viuring the seven yeari, or after it, (iu you think lliore would be any doubt as to tlie value of the improved land Iwing an adequate security for the loan advanced upon ? StU:~-fM raani*, MppMbw Um Iwad af a ftmil* to «•, oU dM wir* Mi cMMim to dMMiM iIm tei I wmU M inceoilni MMOt b« abto aad wilHag i* pay iIm hMfMl m lh« emi oC,liM mvw yMn. Im tf mmtm availiag himatf af di« improVaiMDU Umi hod lakm f S «« «pM dM panieahv lot. AirawKH: Much depends upon the vhantcter of the Seidart he may uli« posscwioo of •■ laud, consaoM liw itnck of provisions Mt\wnt6 \o iiim, and afierwardi abandon his loi, withoai ptfrtuipa mailing any other improvement than erecting of a log-lioute. The improvcaicnts which woald be Bad* by an iidustsioaa SctUer would certainly be of a value adequate to lh«) loan auvanccd. QUEKV? Sevenlhfy :— Are you of opinion that any tort of practical difficulty will be found in the levy of this interest, supposing such levy to be made under the directions of the Governor r Answer: 1 am not. QUKRY ? Eighthli/: — What would be the average ex- pense per cent upon the cdllection of tl>c interest r Answer' Five per cent. i 11 Query ? Ninthly : — Are you of opinion that there would be any sort of indisposition on tlie part of the Co- lonial Legislatures to give every facility to the levy of this interest, in consideration of the extreme ad- vantages to the colony which must arise from the introduction of a regulated system of Emigration, consisting of properly selected Emigrants at* a proper period of life, who have left their own country under the circumstance of there being no demand for their labour ? Answer: I am not. Htivelu I the productions which might be the result uf lunigration, with the esception of the intereiti and repsymeats, which must necessarily be a vtty imallpart of the actual wealth created, as is ihown by toe concurrent tostimony of all the Colonial Witnesses. Aisle.- —If an individual or aCompany in England advanced £. 100,000/. on a Mine or on a Canal, they would expect to receive itUtrut upon their capital ; but could the Ceioaift complain of a remittance to EngUod of that interest! .i QUERT? Tenthly : — Do you conceive, in point of fact, that this proposal of advancing capital to the Emigrants, in other words to the Colony, differs from any speculation which might be made of ad- vancing capital in any colonial enterprize, whether on loan or in mines, for which the capitalist would naturally require a remunerating interest? ... Answer: • Yes, this difference, in my opinion : A company has been formed in this country for working mines in Nova Scotia ; it has commenced business, and I think there is every prospect of its realising handsome returns to the investments made. Government expects no more than an interest of fcur per cent upon the sum advanced. 1 cannot conceive any reason upon which a colonist could ground a complaint of the remittance of that interest to England, more than the remittance of the profits of the company tu which I have alluded. SELlCT COMMnriE ON BMlOtATlON -lit;. Mad af a fcaiilf *» ■ llMtollWMUw i;«;illiitfMMair«r ipMikatpMlioMr %ai, coman* ike Dialling any eiihtf by an iMiutuioaa Query : EkvtiHkfy :— Whether in the initinoe of indi- viduaU advancing their capital, a higher rate of iniereat would not bo expected; and whether Ruch interest would not be exi>ectcd to cominencv at a much earlier period than after the lapae of leven yetfiP Na*f — Th« propMiiion htrtin mad* it, M advtae* t.to, f^ of inltretl fur w*in ynn, and thm iJohars* inltrtil •I Iha rale 4)f t.H 131. 41^. per ,rM, that It, (ii p«r caitt unon lh« oriiiinai I (><> 1 hut a< il ii mundtil that ina roolhar ( ounlry (hotilil ttutain no ulliinnlo Iom upon ihote loani, iha Kmivrant ii callail upon to repay a ca|uial lum uf t. lo. in* •ItaJ of X.(3o, and it calltd upon 10 pay l.^. per annum ai thu end of icven year«, upon llial capital of £,80, bting at Ihc rale of j pvr cent upon it. Th« cat*, inen, u belwtan lh« lander and ihe Emigrant, •uppoaing il to b« an individual cat*, ilandi liinply ihui :— 1 lend yau t.Oo. (Ve« uf ;nlereit for Mven yean, hut aa iha colonial rata of interttl it lix per cent, I ihould b« Juilifled in calling upon you to pay t.^. lii. for thit turn at Ihe expiration oflhe fir>t ytar ; but ut I with you to employ your meant exclutively in luiptoviiig vnur land, I will remit yiiu all iitleretl for icven yeart, and (hen I will charga you with an intcrcil of £.4. per annum initvad of the turn of £.3. lai. ; and at any time, if you chooia to relieve your- tcif (Vom thit annual payment or £.4. or parte of it, you may diminith il to the extent of £, 1 . by every £. 30. thai you pay by inttalmentt, in liquidation of the capital debt of £.Bo., thai it of £,60. improved to the value or£.IJo, in coniaquenct of Mvtn yaart deferred intcretl. Aniwek: No individual would make the advance required for the support of ihe Emigroni. Six per cent it the legal ioierctt in Nova Scotia and New Druniwick. J. Home, D' P. M' General, Nova Scotia. ^f t(it tieluikelp flrom all e rMult of tmigraiion. ind rcpayiaaata, which 1 of the actual wealth ent tetlimony of all ihe iiy In fingland advanced i, they would expect to but could the Colonitt i of that intereal* '^ (• '!•■ (' -♦-|_ V!»V-*t,- ^ ■ lor working mine* in ling tuindtome retornt y cent upon the sum [int of the remittance liich 1 have alluded. 550- 3 Z 3 ^mim^^mt mau': srrss- 550 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE N' 7. Downing-street, I9tb May 1827. Mr. WiLiic HuRTON would be much oUiged to Mr. Buchanan, notwithstanding the Evidence which be has ah'eady given before the Emigmtion Committee, if he would be good enough to furnish him with written and specific Answers to the following Queries : QUEUT ? First : — Taking the whole range of the North Aiiierican Colonies, and reducing them to one common average, do you think it would be safe to estimate the expense necessary for the satis- factory location of an Emigrant family, of a man, woman and three children, at less than £.60. per family, such ? ':pen8e to be incurred after their landing at a colonial port ? , ., , , . . Answer : A'irfe.-— This querjr involre* th« suppoiition, that the ei- pense of pasmge is never to be iDcurred by Government, but if, in all eiues, to be paid by the parties interested in the removal of a superabundant population, and that tlie Emi- grant's family b ■ been apprmtd of by an Agent appointed by Government to examine a'.l proposed Emigrants. AU the expenses and circumstances of the passage to be entirely independent of Government assistance or respeiwibility. No Emigrant would be entitled to Government assistance in the Colonies, who had not received a voucher from a Govern- ment agent at home, that such Emigrant and family were proper subjects for receiving Government assistance. Taking into calculatiuo the informatj^cn we have received from Mr. Robinson, who has hitherto been the medium of carrying the intentions of His Majesty's Government into effect most successfully in the experiment of Emigration to Upper Cannda, and to whose exertion the favourable result of same is in a great degree owing ; yet, as the premises on which any future Emigration is to take place embraces the obligation of repay- ment, and keeping in mind those pointi, and the advaniarres that may arise by experience from a more nmpk plan qf economy, and from the views 1 have hitherto v.itertained on the subject of Emigration, and from wnich subsequent information does not warrant me to vary in any material degree from my hasty Sketch or astimate formerly submitted to the Committee,— I am decidedly of opinion that the sum of Fifty Pound% Mterling, to be expended after arrival in the Colonies, would be sufficient to locate ■- family; presuming that previous arrangements are made, and such suitable situations as now present themselves, and that are well adapted for settlement, would be selected, teithout seeking those more distant districts, which, Jrom the difficulty of access alone, renders a very heavy expense unavoidable. , ■ .^._,, ■( r SELBCT committee on EMIGRATION:— 1827. 55« gtbMay 1827. idiog the Evidence I enough to furnish ipposition^ that the ex- Lurred by Government, parties intereated in the tion, and that the Emi- rby an Agent appointed ipoaed Emigrants. AU he passage to be entirely tance or retpensibility. ■overnment assistance in > voucher from a Govem- uigrant and family were ament assistance. has hitherto been the fully in the experiment lie is in a great degree le obligation of repaj- ice from a more timpk Emigration, and from jm my hasty Sketch or sum of Fiftv Pound, amily ; presuming tiial hes, and diat are well hichfjromthedifficully Query f Secondly : — Do you mainly concur in the ne- cessity of assistanje, more or less in these pro- portions, to the value of £ 60. furnislied to the Etnigrant in the following proportions ? Avragt EttimaU of the Esfenieoftettliifga Famili^, edniiH- ing tff one Man, one Woman, and three Children, in the Britiik North American Provineet; dittinguuhing the variow itemi ^Expenditure. Expenses of conveyance from the port of disembarkation to place of location - • • • £.10-- Provisions, viz. rations for 15 months for 1 man, I woman and 3 children, at 1 lb. of flour and I lb. of pork for each udult, and half that quantity for each child, making 3^ rations ' ' per diem, pork beins at £. 4. per barrel and flour at £.1.5 (. per oarrel • - - 40 C 10 Freight of provisions to place of settlement • 1 10 10 House for each family a - - Implements, &c. 4BlankcU ... £.- 14 - 1 Kettle - 5 10 r I Fryine-paii . . . _ i 3 3Hoea -46 ■ - ;:v :?i r J I Spade - 2 9 1 Wedge - I 4 I ■ -, 1 Auger -9 a 1 Pick-axe .... - a - a Axes ..---i-- » ., l^roportion of erindstone, . ti^f'v !•*-■• whipsaw ana cross-cut / ,''.', ','' J saw -..--«.- 14 - ■• "" Freight and charges on ' ' ditto, 1 5 per cent - - - 10 a . £.3 »8 - aSJ,]) f-4 6 8 Cow - 410- Medicines and medical attendance - . . t - _ Seed corn - - - . --16 Potatoes, 5 bush, at a «. 6 if. - • - la 6 . 14 _ Proportion of the expense of building for the deput 1 - - Ditto for clerks, issuers, and surveyors to show the lots- - - - - - - -15- £.60. sterling is equal to • £.6613 4 A^ote.— Something in the nature of this Schedule, appli- cable to the special circumsunccs of theifocalion of each particular Emigrant, would be delivered to him upon his landing ; and upon his presenting a voucher to the Eo-lura- tion Agent at the Colonial Port, showing that he had teen approved u an Emigrant, and upon liii expressing his wish to receive this sort of loan in kind. In case of this occur- ring, he would be called upon to sign the security adverted to in the next query, and then conveyed to his location at the Government expense. As two children are considered equal to the expense of an adult, if the family consisted of a widower and nve children, or in nnv other variety of iiro- portion, regulated by this principle of equivalent, would not the £. tk>. be equally iiecesiary i Every lot munt have a working head of a family upon it, who must become respon- sible for the interest. An«ver : , I do not geueraily concur in the appropriation of the Sixty pounds, even supposing that sum to be ne- cessary as applicable to the range of our North Jmeri' can Colonies ; and my conclusions in omitting some items are strengthened by the concurrent opinion of other colonial gentlemen's experience in such matters, including Mr. Robinson and Col. Marshall. The itein of Transport to place of location nfter landing, I think rather embraces the most distant and expensive points that might be selected; and I should suppose that, taking the range of our colonies, at well below Montreal at above, and up the Ottawa river, that from Five to Six Pounks per family* would.be a fair Calculation ; and if confined to the Lower provinces alone, I should say much less. And i would be strongly inclined to introduce a different ration of food, not only for lECUNOMY, but ['consider the health of the Emigrant a material point in our calculations; and the natural result to an Irish or Scotch Settler, by the transition from his accustomed food, of potatoes, milk, and oatmeal, to SALT PORK AND FLOUR, must inevitably bring with it disease and impurity of the blood, particularity among children : and bearing strongly in mind thai the system of repayment will be the basis of any future Enueration. The Emigrant will be anxious to keep down t.iy expense tli.tt can possibly be avoided ; consequently T would suggest, that he provides himself in the first instance uith not lest than one pair of blankets, a camp kettle, a frying-pan and spade (for even a perfect pauper emigrant will have no difficulty in collecting those items,) and that no Lmigrant be received on board ship without them. The other indispensable implements to be furnished at the settlement, agreeable to the Schedule marked (A.) I do not think that any material difference would accrue in the calculation of the expense of the family, vlietlier the number of children fthonid exceed (he average adults or not ; in fact, the greater the number of children, the more certainty of success the Emigrnnt would have from the help of labour he could command in his own family- I heg to submit the Comparative Expense of transporting a family from Nnr York to Upper Canada, by Mr. Charles Smyth, uf New York and Albany, general transport agent and carrier; by which you will sec wiui what economy tltose things are done in the State!!; and 1 am disposed to think, fruui conversation 1 had lately Willi * I do not think that free transport, after landing, should be given to any pauper emignuit family, for more baggage tnaa a cwt. over and above the conveyance of women and children ; tlie men and such others uf the fiunily capable of walk- ing, should do so. , , ' 3 Z 4 ' '' *' [i itC '■ ■< fii' 553 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF "THE with a, proprietor of the St. Lawrence Steam Boat Company, that arrangements gomething similar might be nade in Canada, N.Bi I am eonvineed contracts can be made for the conveyance of u family from Quebec to Montreal for about 4 dollartyOt i8«. sterling. I Passage of an Adult from New York to Albany - ' ' ' $1 ? ' Albany to Rochester .... 3 i;: Rochester to Upper Canada ... 1 Ss Children under iS yean half price, and young children gratis. Baggage per hundred weight, from New York to Canada, one dollar : that— Man and Wife, New York to Canada - - ', - - • ^ to .3 Children .--.-...-. j^ Average of one Child -.-----. j 9 cwt. Baggage --....--- 3 10 days Provisions, at 37} cents, per day - - - . - 3 75 at4«-4<'- - - - J^3i 75 is £.4. 14. 3. Or we will say Five Pounds sterling for the transport of a Family from N ew Yobk to York inUpPEB Canada, N. B. I have no hesitation that a considerable abatement would be made for a large number. I subjoin a Schedule of Provisions, and other articles that I consider adequate for the location of an Emigrant family, particularly in the Lowtr Provinces; the same facilities, as to variety of food and probable transport to location; would nut be generally experienced iii the Upper Provinces. SCHEDULE (A.) The foUowini; Rations I would recommend Emigrants, and which might be obtained in any of the provipces below Montreal: — Each family, of man, wife and three children, 3} full rations for 450 days after arrival on their landt : j :, " ajlb. Pork (Irish) -.,... 8| / Jib. Molasses -------ij ' 4I lb. Oatmeal and flour 7 17 J per day. For 260 days, is - - - - £.18 13 9 N. B. This Ratiotk 4 days in the week. i ■'.^< ■ ■. A ' -'■ . 3j|lb. Oatmeal and flour - " - ■ " ,4 4 lb. Molasses --. •---!} }o lb. Potatoes -------3 1 ' 4 Herrings ..----.4 ' "■ '■■' ■ -:''' '■'■"■ laj - . - 9 17 11 >. . - • I I ■ ai ; , • .^ For Lower Provinces - - Sterling f.aS 11 8 .'^ For Upper Canada, Pork would cost id. per lb. higher, which would v.l ,■' bring the ration per day to about 18J4/. or^ipcf. per day for ;ri* • 'Upper Canada - - ' • - .' .. , . 35 jo - Average of each Family will be • - - £.32 - 10 ... •■'-■>- (carried forward} SEfcfiCT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION :— iSa;. 953 imilar might be bee to Monueal , from New Yoik 75 75 "4. 3- nUPFEKCAMADA. > number. tion of an Emig""' irobable tiantport lo «ny of the pro?ipce» lays after anWal on SCHEDULE (A.)— continurd. Brought forward • - ■ . X.31 -Ho Expenie of Transport, from landing till place of location, inclvd- iNo Uppeh and Lower Provinces 6-- To A pair of B.ankets ........ _6_ - 9 Hoes - - - - - - • . - . — 210 - I Iron Wedge -.-.-.... _i_ - 1 Auger .......... _2_ - a Axes (American) • - . •• . . - .]6- —' Proportion expense of Grindstone - .. . . . _«•_ - Medical attendance, 8lc. - - . - - - - -ij. - Seed Grain, Potatoes, &c. Sic. - i_- •• House for each Family (subsequent information) • - . 2 10 - - Proportion of building Dep6ts, fcc. - - - - . -15- - Ditto Clerks, Issuers, kc. • - • - - . . 1:0- •• A young Pig .--..-... -64 - Incidents for Carriagt of Prnmont, tfcijc. - • - - 3 - - .i ■' Sterling - £.48 10 - It will be observed that I do not allow a Cow ; and in addition to the doubtful opinion I held on that point, the late information of Colonel Marshall and Mr. Robinson, and others, decided my not including same in this calculation. , Oatmeal can be taken from Ireland in casks of 3 and 3 cwt., also pork in barrels of 20olbs. Molasses may either go from England, or be got equally as cheap in the colonies. Potatoes can always be procured by a little priority of arrangement ; and herrings can go from Scotland. Fresh beef can be substituted part of the winter for pork, which can always be had for \\d. to sr. per lb. and will produce a saving. And as the whole is calculated in sterling at par, a surplus may be obtained by exchange. ~ 33, Downing-street, May 22, 1837. A. C. Buchanan. •v ' nit '..'i }■-' 13 9 17 n 11 8 1 8 - >Q (carritd forward: Nole:—T..ety .loins must be taken io explala to the Emignuit, that the acceptance of the loan is to be entirely voluntary en hit part, precisely the same as if any individuiu in his own country had proposed, from motives of charity, to advance him a Icnn of equal amount, upon the satie principle of repayment. Query ? Thirdly : — Do you consider that any sort of practical difficulty will exist in taking an un- expensive and simple security from the Emigrant, both personal as well as a lien upon his land, for the payment oi (,. 4. per annum interest,. being at the rate of 5 per cent upon the sum of f,. 80., or in othier words upon the sum of £. 60. improved ^ • , ' by deferred interest for seven years to the sum of £. 80., interest being only calculated in that instance at jC. 4. per cent? Ahswer: I do not apprehend that any practical difficolty will arise in taking a sufficient security, personal and by mortgage on the land and implements, for the payment of th';; interest on the principal advanced. I would, however, recommend if practicable the joint security of two or more heads of families for the individual liability of each other; and which would be found more particularly reijuisite in the case of Query, N° 6. 550. A A 554 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE Note:— The mode of cftimating the value of the prodnee of the Settler's farm in money, would be by a limple eiti- mate of market price, made under preicnbcd rogulationt in Coloniet, and auewiog produce with reference t^ iuch value. Query? Fourthly :— Do you consider that the Emigrant settler, if not culled upon to pay any interest fcr the space of seven years, will have any difficulty whatever in affording to pay £. 4. per annum, at the exoiration of that period, in money or money's worth, that is, m grain and pork of a merchantable quality, estimated upon a given principle of arbi- tretion, such Emigrant having always a power at his own option of paying off the principal of ,£• 80. in instalments of £. ao. each, in money, until the - ■ ' whole of the original loan be discharged ? Axrwer: I am decidedly of opinion that if the Emigrant is located on fair good land and in a healthy tituation, and reasonably situated as to roads and markets, but that at the expiration of seven years or sooner he will be per- fectly competent to pay the interest (if not part principal) of such money as may be advanced him, not exceed- ing tour pounds per annum, if not in cash, in produce at fair market prices. 1 would by no means make a cash payment absolute ; the Emigrant in such cases would be obliged to carry his sp:tre produce to the country storekeeper, who would give nim in payment a very small turn in money, and the residue in good* perhaps at 100 per cent advance, and most of the articles not required by the Emigrant' » family ; so that by these means the capability of the Emigrant would be much curtailed. Indeed I am of opinion that in many instances repayment ii< produce might bejin at expiration of third year. Note : — This question might not appear more necesiarr to be put to a Colonial witness, than to any other witness ; but it has reference to the disinclination naturally felt to the payment of rent in countries under the circumstances of our North American Colonies, which contain an indefinite extent of waste land of fertile quality. Query' Fifthly:— fite you of opinion that if this pro- position be adequately explained to the Pauper Emigrant, and if he be made conclusively to understand that it is not a rent tor his land, but a payment of interest upon a loan of money lent to him at his men request, which loan has been advanced to him in kind and not in money, that he would be in any degree disposed to resist the pay- metit of this interest, it being explained to him, that at any time he has the power of exonerating him- " Vot- self from such payment, by the payment of ^. 80.? Answer: Under the presumption that the most explicit understanding is come to in the outset, I do not see on what grounds any resistance could be raised to trie repayment of the principal or interest on the money advanced, more than in the case of any ordinary debt or transaction. At the Emigrant is to consider the advance to be made him by Government as a loan to be repaid, he will no doubt watch with a scrupulous eye on the expen- diture, and if he should find that due economy has not been observed in the disbursement, that would be the only ground, if any, on which he could at all rest any defence. •t QUEHY ? Sixthly:— \a case of the deatli of the Emigrant at any period during the seven years, or after it, do you think there would be any dbubt as to the value of the improved land being an adequate security for the loan advanced upon ? Note ! — For example, supposmg the head of a family to die, and the wife and children to ^andon the lot ; would an incoming tenant be able and willing to pay the interest at the end of the seven years, he of course availing himself of the improvements that bad token place upon that particular lot. Answer: In the event of the death of the head of the family, if it shonid happen before the expi.-ation of fotir years, / should doubt much, on the average, whether the land and improvements would be worth in money the amount expended; but o/fcr the fourth year I should consider 100 acres of land, with the consequent improvement, good security for sixty pounds, and that persons would be got willing to enter on the property subject to the original conditions. I am not prepared tu say as to the right of the widow and children, and how far the energies of the family would not be cramped in the idea of losing their farm and labour by the death of the father within the period of four years. M ight not an insurance on uie life of the heads of families for the first four years, be a sure remedy ; say first year, £. 60. would cost about 2o«. ; 2d year, £. 40. — 14s. 6d, ; 3d year, £■30. — lis.; 4th year, £, 3o. about -js.Gd.; in all about £.3. 13s. for the insurance of the sum, calculating on the annual increase of the farm ; the premium (o be paid by or charged on Emigraats. t i #' ralue of the produce le by a limple citi- eicnbed rogulationt th r^erence tv iuch althjr sUaatioD, and oner he will be per- ed him, not exceed- means make a cash uce to the country in good$ perhaps at t by these means the instances repayment ipear more neciessary to any other witness; out D naturally fell to the he circumstances of our itain an indefinite extent I do not see on what the money advanced, ler the advance to be us eye on the expen- at, that would be the SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION i-iSa;. 555 Query? • » Sevarthfy: — Ar« you of opinion that any sort of practical difficulty will be found in the levy of this interest, supposing such levy to be made ' * under the directions of the Governor? ^, AksWER : I do not apprehend any diffi I'ulty in the levying of the interest under the direction of the proper authorities. I am not prepared to say whethti- or no n law of the Colonial Qoveinment giving a priority of claim on the Settler, might not be found advisable on this point: no doubt you will get a conclusive opinion from the Hon. the Chief Justice of Lower Canada, who is now in London. Query ' Eighthly: — What would be Uie average ex- — — pg^j ypQ^ ,jj^ collection of the pense per interest? Answer: ' A great deal on this point will depend on the situation and extent of the Settlements, nnd their contiguity to each other. If the interest and instalments are to be received in cash, and stated periods of the year fixed for such payment, I apprehend the expense of collection would be about 5 to 7| per cent ; but if receive'.) in produce, I would say 10 or 15 per cent ; much will depend to what extent Emigration may go. Note:— The Colonies would benefit exeltuivelu uTie availing himself of ace upon that particular ration of fo»r years, / in money the amount sequent improvement, roperty subject to the dieii, and now far the jr by the death of the if families for the first •.—14». 6«(.i 3d year, he sum, calculating on Note : — If an individual or a Company in England advanced £. 100,000. on a Mine or on a Canal, they would expect to receive interett upon their capital ; but could the Colonist complain of a remittance to England of that interest. Query? Taithly : — Do you conceive, in point of fact, that this proposal of advancing capital to the Emigrants, in other words to the Colony, differs from any speculation which might be made of ad- vancing capital in any colonial enterprize, whether on loan or in mines, for which the capitalist would ': naturally require a remunerating interest ? Answer: In pointof fact I do not concrive that advancing of capital by the motherCountry to the Emigrants, to esta- blish them in the Colonies, vcries at all from the introduction of capital for any other purpose, as regards the remitting the interest for such advance ; and in point of local advantages to the Colony and undoubtedsecurity to the lender, the application of money for the purpose of a well-digested plan of Emigration is, in my opinion, of such decided advantage to the Colonies^ that no efTurt should be withheld by them to give every facility and protection. 4 A 2 95» APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE s i i:-i. ■ i QUKRT ' Eleventhly .•—Whether in the instance of indi- Note .-—The propotition herein mode ii, to adrance £, (Jo. viduals advancing their capital, a hip!ier rate of free of i„terert for lewn yew., and then iochar^interert 1 . *° , » J J 'u .1. 1 at the rate of £.6. 13*. 44/. per cmt, that it, u^ per cent interest would not be expected j and whethersuch upo„ the original £.60 j but aa ft ii intended that the mother interest would not be expected to commence at Country ahouldiiutain no ultimate lott upon theieloant, the a much earlier period than after the lapse of seven Emigrant is called upon to repay a capital tum of £.80. in. vears ? "®''" °^ *■ ^°'' """^ " called upon to pay £. 4. per annum at J the end of sever, yean, upon that capital of £.80., being at the rate uf 5 per cent upon it. The case, then, as between the lender and the Emigrant, supposing it to be an individual case, stands simply thus :— . I lend vou £.60. free of interest fbr seven yean, but u the colonial rate of interest is six per cent, I should be justified in calling upon you to pay £.3. ia«. forthissumat ' ' the expiration ofthe fint year ; but as I wish you to employ ' your means exclusively in improving vour land, I will remit you a/{ tn<;rM< for seven years, and then I will charge you ';., With an intemt of £.4. per annum instead of the sum of " x . £.3. ia«.; and at any time, if you choose to relieve your- * selffromthis annual payment of £.4. or parts of it, you may m; '■ >.•:;''■•' » ■ diminishittotheextentof£.i. by every £.30. that von pay by instalments, in liquidation of the capital debt of £.80., that .,)> isof£. 60. improved to the value of £.80. in consequence of seven year* deferred interest. Answer : In the present limited state of capital in the Colonies, few if any would be got that would advance money to in.'lividuals at the rate of interest sought for in the present speculation. Money has been, and no doubt partially still is, advanced to new SettV, :i. ttiu custom of the Settler for his neces- iKcics, which he only obtains at an enormous price. 33 Downing-street, szd May 1827. A. C, Buchanan. r.,k,. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION i-iSi;. 557 I, to •dTOttc* £. 80, I io charge interctt ;h»t it, 67 per cent led that the mother pon the«e loan, the ftl mm of £.80. in> r £. 4. per annum at il of £.80., being at ' and the Emigrant, inds limply thua:— leren yean, but u r cent, I ihould be . ia«. fortliiiiumat . wiih you to employ >ur land, I will remit in I will charge you ttead of the aum of oose to relieve your- r part* ofit,yoo may y £.30. that Tou pay tal debt of£. 80., that ;, 80. in coDaequence N»8. Downin<»-8treet, Kith May 1837. Mr. WiiMOT HoRTON would be much obliged to Mr. P. fVagnei; notwitlistnnding the Evidence which he has already given before the Emigration Committee, if he would be good enough to fur^iish him with written and specific Answers to the following Queries : Note :— Thii query involrei the supposition, that the ex- penae of passage is never to be incurred by Government, but is, in all cotes, to be paid by the parties interested in the removal of a superabundant population, und that the Eroi- eront's family have been approvto /by an Agent appointed by Government to examine all proposed Emigrants. All the expenses and circumstances of the passage to bu untirely independent of Government assistance or responaibility. No Emigrant would be entitled to Government assistance 111 the Colonies, who had not received a voucher from a (iovcrn- ment agent at home, that such Emigrant and family were proper subjects for receiving Government assistance. Answer:. ..... 1 am of opinion tliat 60/. sterling it a liberal and ndeqnate, bnt by no means on excessive or extravaiiinnt sum, for the satisfactory location of an Emigrant family, consisting ot father, mother and tliree children, from the period of their arrival'at the Colonial port of settlement, under the circumstances explained by the Note to this Query. Query ? First : —Taking the whole range of the North American Colonies, and reducing them to one common average, do you think it would be safe to estimate the expense necessary for the satis- factory location of an Emigrant family, of a man, woman and three children, at less than £.60. per family, such expense to be incurred after tlieir landing at a colonial port? r i I advance money to lealers,but they not iettler for his neces- A. C. Buchanan. Query? Secondly .—-Do you mainly concur in the ne- cessity ot assistance, more or less in these pro- portions, to the value of £,. 60. furtiished to the Emigrant in the following proportions ? Average Ettimate of the Expense of settling a Family, consist' ingqfone Man, one froman, and three Children, in the British North American Pntvinces ; distinguishing the various items of Expenditure. Expenses of conveyance from the port of disembarkation to place of location - • - • £.10 - - Provisions, viz. rations for 15 months for 1 man, I woman and 3 children, at 1 lb. of flour and 1 lb. of pork for each adult, and half that quantity for each child, making 3J rations per diem, pork being at £. 4 per barrel and flour at £. 1 . 5 «. per barrel • - - 40 6 10 Freight of provisions to place of settlement - 1 10 lo House for each family 2-- Implements, &c. 4 niankets ---£.- 14 - 1 Kettle - 5 10 1 Frying-pan -----13 3 Hoes -46 1 Spade - J 9 1 Wedge - - - - - I 4 1 Auger -a a 1 Pick-axe . . • - _ a - a Axes . - ... 1 - - Proportion of grinsdtonc, wnipsuw and crosa-cut saw -•-. -•-14-'- Freight and charges on ditto, 15 per cent - - - 10 a £.3 tf - (ir^,) £-4 6 8 Cow 4 10 - Medicines and medical attendance - - - 1 - - Seed corn - - - - - - 1 6 Potatoes, 5 bush, at a s. 6d. ; or 10 at IS. 3d. perbuthel - - - - 12 6 14 - Proportion of the expense of building for the dep6t 1 - - Ditto for clerks, issuers, and surveyors to show the lou - - - - *- - - - > 5 - £.60, sterling is equal to • £.6(> 13 4 least two, if not of four blankets per family, ecjual to winters of that couutry ; as also of n his land, for the payment of j^.4. per annum interest, being at the rate of 5 per cent upon tlie sum of £. 80., or in other words upon the sum of /. 60. improved by deferred interest for seven years to the sum of £. 80., interest being only calculated in that instance at £.4. per cent ? Answer: 1 am of opinion that no difficulty will exisi in obtaining luificient and satisfactory security from Emigrania, both personal and hypoihctically, on the lands granted to them, for full and final repayment of the sums advanced, at 5 per cent on 60/., or 4 /. per cent on 80 /. so valued al deferred interest. if- I I i i' (', I ill i iijff'!' t ! ■* 6 ni t ! if fifir Not*: — The mode of estimating the value of the produce of the Settler's farm in money, would be by a simple esti- mate of market price, made under prescribed regulations in Colonies, and assessing produce with reference to such value. QUEHT ? Fourthly : — Do you consider that the Emigrant Eettler, if not called upon to pay any interest for the space of seven years, will have any difficulty whatever in affording to pay £.4. per annum, at the expiration of that period, in money or money's worth, that is, in grain and pork of a merchantable quality, estimated upon a given principle of arbi- tration, such Emigrant having always a power at his own option of paying off the principal of £. 80. in instalments of £. 20. each, in money, until the whole of the original loan be discharged ? Akbw£r: I am confident that every Emigrant of industrious and sober habits will find litlle or no difficulty in repaying the principal of 80/. nt deferred interest. 1 am of opinion, however, that it would be advisable to encourage Hnd facilitate their making partial payments, in smaller sums than in instalments of So/., that is, in sums of 4/. 5/. or 10/., or any even sum not less than these, as by so doing, it would give them the means al once of putting such sum beyond the reach of accident by depredation, (ire or other contingency, and of reducing the growing interest on their debt. A^af<.-— This question might not appear more necessary to be put to a Colonial witness than to any other witness ; but it has referente to the disinclination naturally felt to the payment of rent in countries under the circumstances of our North American colonies, which contain an indefinite eatent of wasteland of fertile quality. Query ? Fifthly: — Are you of opinion that if this pro- position be adequately explained to the Pauper Emigrant, and if he be made conclusively to understand that it is not a rent for his land, but a payment of interest upon a loan of money lent to him at his own request, which loan has been advanced to him in kind and not in money, that he would be in any degree disposed to resist the pay- ment of this interest, it being explained to him, that at any time he has the power of exonerating himself from such payment, by the payment of £. 80. r Answer: No reasonable pauper Emie'rant could offer any opposition to so fair and moderate a requital, for so essential A service rendered to him and his offspring, and on the accomplishment of which condition alone his grant of land can ever be legally and finally transi'erred to him. Ml to espiaia to the hwn if to b* mtarcly ■• M if any indiviilual m notiMt of charily, KHUt, upon tiM laiae SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION:— 1817. m Query? Sixthly : — In case of tlie death of the Emigrant at any period during the seven years, or after it, do you think there would be any doubt as to the value of the improved land being an adequate security for the loan advanced upon ? Amswek : In all human probability that identical lot of land will, Iwforc the lapie of time in question, be found doubled, or probably quintupled in iti present value ; more particularly il the rtctntl^ recovtrtd privilege of intercourse with the Sugar Colonies io preterved to the Canadui, Miid put on a footing of pormunency. Kott : — For exnmplc, lupponina the hend of a family Co die, and the wife and children to ubandnrvhu lot ; would aa incoming tenant bu ubli- and willing to pay the intereit at the end of the ravon yean, hu of courtc availing himtclf of the improvement* that had talten place upon that particular lot. rity from Emigrant!, iiyment of the lumi QUEKY? Seventhly : — Are you of opinion that any sort of practical difficulty will be found in the levy of this interest, supfiosing such levy to be made under the directions ot the Governd^? he value of the produce iild be by a limple e«ti- prescribed regulations with referenca to such . difficulty in repaying dvisable to encourage '., that is, in sums of the means al once of and of reducing the tppear more necessary to > any other witness ; but on naturally felt to the the circumstances of our itain an indefinite extent equilal, for so essential "lion alone his grant ol AwsvER : None whatever; the Emigrant's own welfare and future independence derive from the fulfilment of his oiutract, and the land cannot become legally or finally his without it. The Law Officers of the Crown in that Colony will have only to do their duty, in the worst possible state of tlie matter. Query ? Eighlhly: —What would be the average ex- pense per cent u])on the collection of the ' interest? . „ ' Answer : To the best of my judgment, not less than five or more than ten per cent, according to the remoteness or proximity and accessibility of the place of location, if in kind or produce ; but if in cosh, or for such part as might be paid in cash, a{ per cent should be sufficient. utivmu ! the productions which might be the result of Migration, with the exception of the interests and repayments, which must necessarily be a vefu imatt part of tne actual wealth created, as is shown by the concurrent testimony of all the Colonial Witnesses. Query? Ninthly: — Are you of opinion that there would be any sort of indisposition rn the part of the Colonial Legislatures to give every facility to the levy of this interest, in consideration of the ex- treme advantages to the colony which must arise from the introduction of a regulated system of Emigration, consisting of pro|)erly selected Emi- grants at a proper period of life, who have left , their own country under the circumstance of there being no demand for their labour ? Answer : It is not to be supposed that any Colonial Legislature could withhold any legal and constitutional facility for the attainment of the object in question, more especially under these circumstances, uf acquiring iodustrious and useful Setders for the wilderness, and of augmenting the security and strength of the Colony. 4A4 APPENDIX TO THIRD UEPOKT OF THE QuKRV ? Tenthly : — Bo you conceive, in point of fact, that this propo .il of advancing capital to tlie Emigrants, in other words to the Colony, difl'crs froi any speculation uliicli might be made of ad- vanrJDg capital in any colonial iiiterprize, whether on loan or in mines, for which the capitalist would naturally require a remunerating interest i Xotf.'— ^fanindr. ' .ui I'mt'^ompanylnEngluiilailnDced £. 100,000, 0.1 a Mino or on a Canal, they would ciptcl lo rweivo inltrttt upon th^ir capital 1 but could the CoionUl complain of a remittMiuc to Kngland of liiat inlwMi. Am(W£Ii: The difference consisti in the lotid and permnnent ba^is of the present «' tiri'li '.— Uritith lawt to protect; thcmorffi crrtoiniyof the pro^reai of colonial improvement; nnd incrcnainp '/i.;i!.la(ion,su|>erinducing • rapid increnie in the value of Idnd ; a unlubrioiis climate, and n free, tranquil, nappy, and abundant couatry — no tix, and no tithe. Query? Eleventhly : — Whether in the instance of i idi- Note .—The propoaition herein made ii, to advance l.Go. viduals advancing their capital, a higher rate of free of interest for .eTen year., and then to chanje intere.t , , "^ , V , ' I n .. , at the rate of £.6. 13». ^d. percent, that 11, 6t per cent interest would not be expected; and whether such „p„„ theoriRinal £.(Jo., but aalt ii intended that the motlier interest would not be expected to commence at Country ihould luitain no ultimate Iom upon theie loans, the a much earlici period than after the lapse of seven EmlBrnnt i» called upon to repay a capiuUum of £.80. in- vears ' »tcau of £.Co,, nnd is called upon to pay £.4. per annum at J ' the end of seven years, upon tJwt capital of 1.80, being at , . ^ . .„ -. - the rate of 5 per cent upon it. ' , '' < The case, tlicn, as tMtwccn tha lender aiid the Emigrant, • < supposing it to bean individual case, sttindssimply thus:— < '. I lend you £.60. fr«e of interest for seven yean, but as •*• tlie colonial rate of interest is six per cent, I should be > ' '*' -• '' , justified in calling upon you to pay £.3. I a «. for thia sura at ■ ".[■' -i .« / > the expiration of the first year ; but as I wish you to employ j^ your means exclusively in improving your land, I will remit you ol^ in(fr;rt for seven years, and then I will charge you , _,,, , , _ ^ . with an interest of £.4. per annum instead of the sum of "' ' ,' •,''.;•, ■■*.''''-l; £,3. 13 <.; and at any time, if you choose to relieve your- ^ ' ' I .i , ■ .— . r aelf from this annual payment of £.4, or parts of it, you mar diminish it to the extent of £, 1 . by every £. n " that you pay by instalments, in liquidation of the capital debt of £. 80., tnat is, of £.60. improved to the value of £. 80. in consequence of seven years deferred interest. Ansveu : Certainly individuals ^AOuld embark in a similar ontlay of capital, under qi^ater disadvantai^et. The Law Offioersof the Crown must interfere for Government in ease of being so called upon, while individuals must proceed at their own risk and expense. The Crown, moreover, does not alienate or finally transfer the land until a full and final oomplionca with the coaditioos. ].:.;;.. ,,,.„ .V,.y. > •*' *■ ■vn^jC* ^t/itts^i'^i -.-^'C SBLBCT COMMITTEB OH BMIORATIOM :— iSt;. in EnglMid trf«tBced liejr would <«p*ct io could tb« Colonut t that inurwt. liih laws to protect ; iperimlacini;; ■ rapid andaat countr> — no ide ill to advance £. Co. then to charge inUreat nt, that ii, 6X per cent ntended that the mother MS upon theie loan*, the capital lum of £.80. in- I pay £.4. per annum at ;apital of 1.80, being at inder ai>i the Emigrant, !, B•.and•umplythu»I— . for »e*en yean, but u per cent, I ihould l)c £.3. m. for thitiumat M I with you to employ Lg your land, I will remit llien I will charge you nstead of the lum of choote to relieve your- or paru of it, you may every£.!i' that you pay :opitaldebtof£.8o.,that ' £. 80. in consequence idvantaget. The Law jiW\\e individnalt must nally transfer tbe land N't). Oowning-stroet, 19th May 1897. Mr. WitMOT HoRTON would be much obli^^d to Mr. Roimtlt Alount, nolyittutanding tb« Evidence which he haa already given before the Emigration Cominitlcc, if he would be good enough to furniah him wtJi written and apecific Aiuwen to the following Queries QOEET ? ^'** '— TMa query iavolvee the tuppeeitioD, that the •*• • Ftrtt .— Ta^ Ing the whole range of the North P*" "' P«H« '' "r;*' »• »- '"'""^ by Oov«ra..oi. . '"•• ^ , P J 1 • .L . bat if, matteawi, tobepaidby the pMiietinurtitedinih* Amencan Culuiiics, and reducing them to one removal of a niperahundaBt population, and that the E^- commun average, do you think it would be safe grant'i family havt: lieca df>prwWf^by an Agaat ippointed to estimate the expense necessary for the natis- 7 Otfvernmeni to eiamiiM all propoMd Emigruti. All f«:tory location of an E,ni«ra„t fmnUy of a man. 1^3- :?'^=rnra;iS:.r:f %l%^".ra wman and three children, at less than £. bo. No fjnlKrant would b««aUtlcd to Government aHittancuin lior family, such expense to be incurred after their the Coloniei, who hi 1 not received a voucher from a Guvcra- fandinit at a colonial port? '»•'" H""' " •>•"'•. '""at tuch Emigrant and tamily war* ^ ^ proper iubjecia for receiving Uoveramcot aniiUnca. Avswkr: I ducing the whole range of the North American Colonleg to one common average, 1 do not think it would be wtt'e to estimate the expenie neceuary fur the tatisfactory location of an Emigrant family, of a man, woman and three children, at lets than ^.60. per family. Although I know many Emigrant famihe* who commenced almost without capital, and yet they «ave succeeded tolerably well, though not so soon, because in the first instance they were obliged to neglect their fiaimi, jbour out for the means of subsistence while making tbair improvements. Qi;ehy? Stcmdlv:- Do you mainly concur in the SomethliiB b the naiura of this Scbadula, apptU r • . _„.;,. I... in «i..>.o .< tha spacial drcuBstancas of tJi« location af eack cessi j of assistance, mere or less |n these p. ^ Emigrant, would b« delivered to him noon Ua portions, to the value of (,. 60. furnished to the landing ; and upon hii preaaating a voucher to the Emigra- xlmigraiit in the following proportions? tion Agent at tna Colonial Port, showing that K$ kad ««m ^ _____ approved as an Emigrant, and upon hia eaprcasing hia wish Mvtragi^tmmt ^m ^g^> V "B „.^2L ,•_ ti^ ring, be would be called upon to sign tbe security adverted Briluk NorlhAmtneaHPrwmM , duttnguulung IMt ^^^ GovammeBTt exiMnse. Aa two cfiildren are considered vtrumiittm^iispinaiiurt. equal to the expense of an adult, if the ftmily consisted of Expenses of conv^raace from the port of disembarkation to , widower and five cUMron, or in any ether variety of pr». place of location - • - £.10-- portion, regulated by thia principle of equivalent, wouIdTnot ProvMioDs, vis. rations for 15 months for 1 man. fi^ £.60, be equally necessary ? Every lot must liava a I woman and 3 children, at 1 lb. of floiir and working bead of a faadly upoQ it, who must bacgne raspoB- 1 lb. of pork fbr each adult, and half that ,iUa fg, th« Jatafait. quantity for each child, making 3} rations Ser diem, pork being at £.4. per barrel and . ^ , ■ our at £. 1. 5«. per barrel - • - 40 10 FMght of provisions to place of settlement • 1 10 10 HoiHe for each family ...-«-- Implementa, tie. ABIankeU -.-£.- 14 - . . „, t Kettle - 5 lo I FTying-paa - - - - 1 3 , : jHoea - . ... - 4 6 " * 1 Spade - « 9 ". • • 1 Wedge ->4 i'i$iu^t ,<• .•( .• : •• .. ...i,- 1 Aucer ...-.- « a ,,,...■. ,,.,., ■jPick-axo -^ ... - a - ^_ ^._ ; ;.^ ...... ■ Axes 1--^ " ' • '•"''', Proportion of erindstone. ■■JT-'- wnipsaw and cross-cut- ^^ • • saw - 14 - • IMgbt and chargea on , , * • ditto, 15 per cent • - - 10 a £.3 «8 - eSUUn £-4 6 8 " ' w..". -• .; - .. Cow 4 10 - ' Medicines and Medical attAidance ... 1 - - Seed com ......lo Fotatoes, shush, at as.6<^. - . - la 6 , « I - 14 - 1 ; -■....,\ .-< , .. - .1 RoportionoftheexpenseofbuildhigforthedepSt 1 - - . .3 .: 1 IMttoforclerka,iiauer8, and surveyors to show the * lou ' 5 - £.60. sterling is equal to . £.6613 4 * , . ^*™ainly concur in the abore Estimate, ud, generally speaking. I think It a very fair one. 550. ' '♦^ w K ^ lAAAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) ^ ^ 4^ 1.0 I.I S La 120 ■luu 1^ IIJ4 Ui^ < 6" ► 1 '^jy % Photographic Sciences Corporalion 23 WBT MAIN STRilT WIBSTIER,N.V. 145M (716)l7a-4S03 1' 1^ ^ ,r' "^^'W^^ I! 5<« APvmnax. to tHimo bbport of the i^ JV 60. impro¥«d by deftrrcd interest for avna yeafs to the sam of C to., interest behig only^ cdeuiaCed in that itHtiUice at ^•4' per cent? Affflirttt: ^ I do not consider that there coald be any pouible difficulty in taking inch security from tiie Emignat QoBftT? Fourthfy : — Do you consider that the Emigrant settler, if not called upon to pay any interest for the, space of seven years,, will have any difficulty w4iate«ec in affording to p»y l* 4> per annimi, at the expiration of that peritxf, in money or money'k worth, that b, in-erain and \^aA of a merchantabte quality, estimated upon a given priocipla of arU> tratiofl, such Emigrant hating always a power at Ms own option of pa^^goffthe principal of X. 80. iti instalments df £• so. each, in money, until the whola of the original lo«n be discharged 9 NM*:—T\»» mode of eatimaing the «aliw of die produce of the Settler*! farm in money, would be by a simple es^ mate of market price, made uader pretcribed regulatiena in Colaaiaa, and awtiaing praduca with Mftieaoe to aack valuat ;i ': Answem : 1 do not consider that the Emigrant Settler, iX not called upon to pay any intereit for the space of sevea years, will have any difficulty whatever in affording to pay £.4«per aonnlB, at die expiration of that period, either ia money, or grain and pork, though much easier in the fatter. M '.i4,i ; -A'\- QUXRT ? Fifthly : — Are you of opinion that if this pro- position be adequately explained to the Pauper Emigrant, and if he be made conclusively to understand that it is not a rent for his land, but a payment of interest upon a l&an of money lend to him at his own request, which loan has been«|g^ advanced to him in kind and not in money, that he would be in any degree disposed to resist the pay- jnentof this interest, it being explained to him, that at any time he has the power of exonerating him- self from such payment, by the payment of £,, 80? Note .■—This qnestioa mij^t not appear more aeeeatarr to DO put to a Colonial witness than to any other witness; not it has reference to the dbincEnation naturally felt to the payment of rent in countries under the circumstances of oar North American Colonies, which contain an indiefinite exteat of waste la.^ of fertile quidity. Qi Answer.: I nm of opinion that every well disposed Emigrant, who on settling in the Colonies must see the great advantage that this loan would be to him, would not only pay the ioterest cbaerfDUy, bat be gratefal for tke assistance thus afforded to him. ;W^ 'm o nptain to th« mUtobeentlreli uVMiyiiidivMad noli** of chanty, It, upon *• ••■• \ SELECT CDMMITTBe ON BMIQIIATIOH t^itj. Sfi3 QC£RT i ■ . ,. , ,^, . ^, .^ a . » We<»-— For wwmple, iuppoiiiig thohetd of • fatDily to ~ Suethbf : — In ease of toe destn of tne Emigrant dio, uid tbo wife and childiea to •bwidvS kSring «» «kq«at« {J^»P-«— •»>»» Wuk.upUco-po..hatp«,ic«tar ■Bcnrity for the loan advaoced upon ? .^■,, - , . . .,,r,-. ■,,-Mt Akivkr : I abunld tbiolc the land would be a wfficient aecnrity in all caiea of ihii kind. he Emigmatt ralttoofdiepn^vM , bo by a nmplo a» ,reKribod regulatioM 1th MftiBMa to ■«• Sefoenlhfy :—/at you of opinion that any sort ~ 0f praoticol difficulty will be found in the levy of ^ tiiis }BtM«at, auppowig such levy to be nHufe vader the diraetioBa of the Qovemor ? JuiMrjut; I am not informed on this subject, and therefore I cannot answer the Question. I I I III . IM^— —— — ^— Mi— 1^ QtJERT? Eighthly: — What would be the average ex- ' ., 'j *. pense per cent upon the collection of the interest? , , . Answer: i •. . • ^_^ , I cannot answer this question. * , ., . . w the space of sev« tadon of diat period. ippear more aecsssarSlo any other witoOiSiTlpt tton naturally felt to the the drcumstancas of our mtain an indiefiiute oatcat vnetly I the productions which might be the result of Emigration, with the exception of the interests and repaymeotn, which must necessarily be a vtry tmail part of the actual wealth created, as is shown by the concurrent testimony of all the Colonial Witnesses. QUERT ? Ninthly : — Are you of opinion that there would be any sort of indisposition on the part of the Colo- nial Legislatures to give every facility to (h^levy of this interest, in consideration of the extreme ad- vantages to the colony which must arise from the introduction of a regulated system of Emigration, consisting of properly selected Emigrants at a i^ " proper period of life, who have left their own country under the circumstance of there being no demand for their labour ? ■*'■"' Answer : I am of opinion that the Colonial Legislature would give every facility to the levy of tliis interest, for the reasons stated in the Question. gu^ Dies must see the grwt , hntbegrateWforthe ttktili' iu.l Nate: —If an individual or a Company in England adrsnced £. 100,000. on a Mine or on a Canal, they would expect to receive interest upon their capital ; but could the Colonist complain of a remittance to England of that interest. QUEUT ? Tenthly : — Do you conceive, in point of fact, that this proposal of advancing capital to the Emigrants, in other words to the Colony, differs from any speculation which might be made of ad- vancing capital in any colonial enterprize, whether . on loan or in mines, tor which the capitalist would naturally require a remunerating interest ? Answer : I conceive that in point of fact this loan would be more advantageous to the Colonies thun loans on other speculations. • 4B 2 \ f 5<54 'API>ENDIX TO THIRD REPORT 6V THE ,\ QUERT ? Eleventhly': -^Whether in the instance uf indi- viduals advancing their capital, a higher rate of interest would not be expected ; and whether such interest would not be expected to commence at a much earlier period than after tiie lapse of seven years ? 2 Jv-t.J.'fl ^~ . .p: I. -- ■ Answxh : I am of opinion that in thii case a the date of the loao. Nole ; — The propoMtioo hmiii made ia, to adTMoa £. Oe. free of interett for leren yean, and then to charae ^lerett at the rate oC £.6. 131. 4 A per enU, that ia, 6$ per ctal upon the original i. 60; but as it it intended that the mother Country diould niatain no ultimate loee upon thete loans, tha Emierant ii called upon to repay a capital sum of £. 80. in^ stead of £. 60, and is called upon to pay £. 4. per annum at the end of seven years, upon that capital of £. 80, being at the rate off per cent upon it The case, then, as between the lender and the Emignat, mpposing it to be an indiTidual case, stands simply thus :— I lend you £.60. free of intereat for seven years, butu the colonial rate of interest is six per cent, I thouM ba justified in callinc upon you to pay £. 3. 1 ■ 1. for this sum at the expiration of the first year ; but m I wish you to emplov jour n^eans exclusively in improving your land, I will remit you all i»ttrmt for seven years, and then I will charge yon with an Interest of £.4. per annnm bstead of the sum of £.3. i««. ; and at any tfaae if vou choose to ivliffre your- self from this annual payment at £.4. or parts of it, you may diminish it to the extent of £. 1. by •venr£.3a that you pay by instalments, in liquidation of tlie capital debt of £.80.; that is,of£.6o.improvM to the value of 4. 80. ia ooaseqaaue of seven yean deftned intentt. ler rate of interett would be expected, and alio to ooaunenee fiom t.'' , '--,.' • I :-f>''J-:->y,v- .i ^■■■'''. I«^. it, to >dmio« ) . )n to chmrn i(||tor«tt that is. eSpcrcatt iided that the modar upon these loaat, tha ital turn of £■ 80. in^ J £. 4- P«r annum at tal of /• 80, being at er and the Emigranti anda limply thus :— r seven years, but ai K cent, I ihouU b* |. ia«. forthissum«l ilwishyoutoemplm rour land, I will Kmit ben I will charge yon instead of the sum of wose to lelime your* or parte of it, you nay nryi.aa that you pay pitaldebtof£.8o.;tliat £.8o.iBO0iiiequeB6e ) to ooBuncnce fitont SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION:— 1827. 6^5 H • , N' 10. ^ Downing-street, igtii May 1S27. Mr. William Horton would be much obliged to Capt. IVealherUy, notyiilhstanding the Evidence which he has already given, before the Emignition Committee, if he would be good enough to furnish hini witli written and specific Answers to the following Queries : QuEur First -Taking the whole range of the North American Colonies, and reducing them to one common average, do you think it would be safe to estimate the expense necessary for the satis- factory location of an Emigrant family, of a man, ^oman and three children, at less than j^.6o. per family, such expense to be incurred after their landing at a colonial port ? Akswer : I do not think lesfi than £. 60, would be sufficient. Note ;— This query involves the supposition, that the ex- pense of passage is never to be incurred by Govemment, but is, in all cans, to be paid by the parties interested in tha removal of a superabundant population, and that die Eni- grant's family have been approved efhy an Agent appointed y Government to examine all proposed Emigrants. All the expenses and circumstances of the passage to be entirely independent of Government assistance or responsibilitr. No Emigrant would be entitled to Government assistance m the Colonics, who had not received a voucher from a Govem- ment agent at home, that such Emigrant and family were proper subjects for receiving Govemment assistance. QUEBT? Secondly: — Do you mainly concur in the ne- cessity of assistance, more or less in these pro- portions, to the value of £. 60. furnished to the Emigrant in the following proportions ? Average Eitinute ^the Entente oftettling a Family, conrisl- Mg n^ tn* Man, one Woman, and three Children, in the Brituh North American Pravincet; dittingmihing the variout items of Expendittart. Expenses of conveyance from the port of disembarkation to place of location - • - - £. 10 - - ftovisiong, viz. rations for 15 months for 1 man, 1 woman and 3 children, at 1 lb. of flour and ' »lb. of pork for each adult, and half that quantity for each child, making 3 ) rations Ser diem, pork being at £.4. per barrel and our at £.1. 5 1. per barrel - - - 40 6 10 FVeight of provisions to place of settlement • 1 10 10 House for each family • • • . .|__ Implements, &c. ' 4 Blankets ...£.- 14 - « I Kettle ------ s to 1 .ryidg-pan ---•-13 '• 3 Hoes- --.-.-46 1 Spade ...•.- s g I Wedge .•...-14 X Auger ......aa 1 Pick-axe .... - a - a Axes . - . - . i - - Proportion or grindstone, wnipsaw and cross-cut saw • - 14 - Freight and charges on '< •' ' ditto, 15 per cent • - 10 a Note :— Something in the nature of this Schedule, appli- cable to the special circumstances of the location of each particular Emigrant, would be delivered to him upon his landing ; and upon his presenting a voucher to the Emigra- tion Agent at the Colonial Port, showing that he had been approved as an Emigrant, and upon his expressing his wish to receive this sort of loan in kind. In case of this occur- ring he would be called upon to sign the security adverted to in the next query, and then conveyed to his location at the Government expense. As two children are considered equal to the expense of an adult, if the family consisted of a widower and five children, or in any other variety of pro- portion, regulated by this principle of equivalent, would not the £. 60. be equally necessary f Every lot must have • working head of a family upon it, who must become respon« sible for the interest. £3 18 -(ffiSLS) «.4 Cow ---.....4 Medicines and medical attendance • • - 1 Seed com • - - - --16 Potatoes, 5 bush, at a f.6tf. - - - la 6 6 8 10 - Proportion of the expense of building for the dep6t Ditto for clerks, issuers, and surveyors to show ue lote - 14 - 1 - - « 5 - £.60. sterling is equal to - £.66 13 4 Answeii : I mainly concur ,in the above proportions. Yet I must observe, that' although I think a family, con- sisting of 2 adults and 3 children, would require assist- ance as above stated, and that it woul(| be ample, a widower and 5 children would require, in addition to the above-mentioned items, more flour. The charge fof conveying the settler to his location, and transport of provision, 8ic. is, I think, overrated ; should that prove to be the case, the overplus would be advan- tageously laid out in the purchase of more flour, or s pig or two (at the expiration of the 15 months) an animal of no small importance to the Canadian farmer, who always has an abundaoCe of small corn and refuse potatoes, &c. ; and which animal would form the first supply of animal food after the Government allowance ceased. I think it necessary to state, that the axes should be bought in Canada (the best are sold in Montreal, at 7s. 6d. currency) for there is not an axe made in England with which a person would, or could, cut down a good sized tree. All axes hitherto sent out to the settlen have been worked up as old iron. I would also observe, that as a Schedule of the above- description would be given to the Emigrant, it mieht be well to attach an article at the bottom, sUting, that as the sreatest exertions would be made to purchase the articlet, and procure their transport, 8tc. at the moat reasonable rate, should the whole of the £. 60. not be expended, the residue would be laid out in the purchase of other animaJs, or the cash paid into the bands of the Emigrant. I should at the same time observe, that I am fully of opinion a more nutritious and economical ration for the Emigrant might be substituted for the pork, or a great proportion of it, such as fresh beef, potatoes, Indiaa meal, and molasses, &c. fiic.« 550. 4B 3 Sfi8 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE ■ ? Sot*:~^mj ptiM naif be taken lo explain to the Emigrant, tliat tlie acceptance of die loan it to be entir^ ' r tbe WMaiif any individual ttam Motivea of chari^, amount, upeo the mmm principle of lep^iMBl* QUEHT? Thirdly: — Do you consider that any sort of pracucal difficul^r wUl exist in taking an un- ,„taj;t..y • hJ. part. p.ici«ly tb. expensive and snnple security from the Emigrant, in hie own eooaiiy had pMyoaed, i both personal as well as a lien upon bis land, for to advanoe hiia a baa i/o%ual the payment of iC-4- P^c annum interest, being at the rate of 5 per cent upon the sum of £. 80., or in other words upon the sum of £. 60. improved by deferred interest for seven years to the sna of £. Bo., interest being only calculated in that instance at X- 4* pc <*Bt ? Amsweb: „ - , > I do not; for 1 ehould concrive a Tcry ifanple docnaMnt woald bold a man retpwuibk for a debt contractea by bimaelf, in tlie furoithing ceruin articles either by GoTemment or any prirate indiridiml. Nalt .---Tha raoda af animating the vaiaa of thaVfadaoo of the Settler*! hm in monajr, would be by a limple eiti« mate of marhat piioa, maiim wider p w ecribad wigul a ti eai in Colonies, and aneiiing produce with reference so mtdk value. QVERT? Fourthly: — Do you consider that the Emigrant settler, if not called upon to pay any interest for the space of seven years, will have any difficulty whatever in atfording to pay £.4. per annum, at &e expiration of that period, in money or money's worth, that is, ingrain and pork of a mercbantaUe quality, estimated upon a given principle of arbi- tration, such Emigrant having always a power at Us own option of paying off tne principal of £. 80. in instahnents of £. 30. each, in money, until the whole of the orij^al loan be discharged ? Avswbr: I am confident he will not haive any dificaity in paying the intereit, ai propoied, after 7 veartj and I am of emiaion he witi pay off the whpn, and then affix the price of each article of produce. This would not prevent the Emigrant going to a better market, if he could find one, as he has the option qf paying in cash if he chaoses so to do. QOIRT ? Fifthly : — Are you of opinion tJiat if this pro- position be adequately explained to the Pauper Emigrant, and if he be made conclusively to understand that it is not a rent for his land, but a payment of interest upon a loan of money lent to htm at his own request, which loan has been advanced to him in kind and rdt in money, that he would be in any degree disposed to resist the pay- ment of this interest, it being explained to him, that at any time he has the power of exonerating him- self from such payment, by the payment of ^. 80. ? resist, oY make an objection. The positive terms of his Jfot*: — ^This question might not appear mate asBMsary to Se put to a Colonial witness than to any other witneii'; but it has reference to the disinclination naturally fidt 'to the payment of rent in coantrias under the draumstanoes af our N 01 th American Colonies, which contain an indefinite extent of waste land of Artile qaali^ Answer : 1 do notithink he would be inclinetl toresist the pay- ment of £. 8a -for the advances made him, or the annual sum of £. 4. so long as it fsmained tmpaid (or m ^piO' portion as iie 'liquidated his debt,) Nor should it in my opinion be left in his powerto obtaining the land (as expressed in his location ticket) ahould be, that he was to pay at the expiration of seven years i. 80. for the provisions and articles furnished him (here enumerate them;) in the event of his not being able to.pay tliat sum at the time mentioned (7 years) be was to pay £.4. per annum as the interest of the debt, until it was liquidated ; or in the event of his payiqg part of tlie original debt off. 80., in the proportion of £. 1. for every £. ao. left unpaid. That slioulathe interest of the original debt off. 80. or such part as was unredeemed, remain unpaid for aiz calendar months after it becnme due, then the location ticket would be cancelled, utid tlie land, together with the improvements on it, revert back to the Government, and himself made personally responsible for what remained unpaid of the advance made to him by Government. * I rapUn to the ifwjindiTiduM rtivM of chuity. 8ELBCT COMMirrEB ON EMIGRATION:— 1837. afi? QOCAT? &jrth^ : — In case of die death of the Emigrant at any period during the seven years, or aAer it, do jon think there would be any doubt at io the value of the improred land being an adequate •ecurity for the loan advanced upon ? ir«<« .-•i^Fer example, luppoting the hctd of a familjr to dio, and the mih woi childran to abandon-Ae lot i would an SacomiDg tenant b« able and willing to pay the intereit at the end of the levea yean, he uf courte availing hintelf of the hnproreiaenta that had taken place upon that particubv lot. [ debt contractea ilM flf tkeVradiue Im br a aimple eatU •eribo* rogulatieiia I referenca ao ansa Avswib: ••■'■'■ -^ Generally. ipealcing, I think the improrements on the land, or, thouid they be few, iia vicinity to other ciil« tlvated lota, and the pr({gressive riie in the value of iandt in Canada, would alwayt insure a purcbaier, or perioa ' to rent the land. *I. thouid bera mention, that in reGtfence to thia Query and all the others, I form my opinion on the iu|<^ eilioa that each family wUl have m grant of 100 acre*. I would alto tUKgett the propriety of giving 100 acres of land extra, to such familiet at paid off the original dibt and interett before the expiration of (en yean ; by that time the parent would probabl;^ have one or more of bit children married, whom he would like to place on hit newiy-acquired property. This would be a great «liaMllaa-t»«««rtieB, and better inioie an early payment of the money advanced ; it would also tend greatly to promote induttrioui habitt in the younger branchei of the family, who would alwayt have this future provition in view, attainable only by induttry and economy. Saenihh: — Are yon of ophuon Aat any sort ■ ■ • Tenthlyr — Ooyou conceive, in point of fact, ihat this propoMi of advancing capital to the .Eniigi^aints, in other woriU to. th* Coipny, differs from any speculation which might be made of ad- vancing capital ill any colonial enterprize, whether on loan or in mines, for which tlje capitalist would naturally require a remunerating ^terest? • * Answek : • • . • • ■ " Certainly not ; and *hoald there be a thade of difference in the advantage to the Colony, resulting from the advancing ot capiial for the improving and extending ill agriculture, or opening mines, or maicing canali, I should give it in favour of the former. . ')!f ,*■ QUKHT ? Eleventhly : — Whether in' the instance of indi- viduals advancing their capital, a higher rate of* interest would not be expected ; and whether such interest would not be expected to commence at a much earlier period than after the lapse of seven years ? *f ''-'•h . fe«i ■ *. f . ,#\ AvsvzR : Note : — The propocitlen herein niade b, to advance £.80; firee of interest rur wTen yean, and then to charae intereit at the rate of £.6. 13*. ^J. per etui, that i«, & per cent upon the original £.60 ; but aa it i« intended that tne mother Country (hould suatain no ultimate loia upon theie loans, the Emierant i« called upon to repay a capital sum of £.80. hi- •tead of £.60, and is called upon to pay £,4. per annum at the end of seven yean, upon that capital of £.80, being at the rote of 5 per cent upon it. The case, then, as between the lender and the Emigrant, supposing it to be an individual case, stands simply thus :— - I lend you £.60. free of interest for seren years, but as the colonial rate of interest is six per cent, I should be justified in calliiw upon you to pay £,3. ig«. for this sum at the expiration oftlw fint ;^ear t but as I wish you to emplov your means exclusively in improving tour land, I will remit you oO mtentt for seven yean, and then I will charge you with an interest of £.4. per annom instead of the sum of £.3. ia««i and at any time, if you choose to relieve yeut^ self from this annual payment of £.4. or parts of it, you may diminish it to the extent of £. i . by every £. do. that you pay by instahnenis, in Uoaidaiion of the capital debt of £.80, that is of {.60. improveo to the value of £,60. in conaeqtteiK* of seven ;ears definrred interest. I am clearly of opinion^that no individual would be inclined, or could afford (if I may be allowed to use the term) to advance his capital on the moderate tind advantageous terms here suggested ; at the same time I must add, I am equally clear of opinion that the advantages to the people of Great Britain will be equally great by this proposed mode of Emigration, inasmuch as the redondant population beipg talien off, there will be more •(employment for ^he residue ; there will be a greater demand for ine manufactures of the mother Country, as the Colonies increaiifc in population ; the poor rates will be proportionally reduced ; and many other advantages Ksnlt from it, which may not be Accessary at present to state. . I will only add, it may not be deemed unimpiortant for me to state that my Answers and observations on these iQniiries a^e formed on the Jcnowledge I have obtained of the Canadas by a residence of nearly eight years in the taewly-improved part of the countiy. ' . * .* # • • • ^2). Wtatherlfff Captain on the Half-pay of the Line, and one of • .His Majesty's Justices of the Peace for the dtstr&t of Bathvrst, Upper Canada. of Fob tol I b«K to wbioin a sketch of a Location Tiqicet, and fotm of Obligation for the Emigrant to enter sato^ wni^h I tnink night aiuwer the purpose intended. SELECT COMMITTEE ON BMIGRATIONt-tSi;. S0» hey wo*ld «P^ «•> It Muld the ioJonUt f that intcreit. r, reiulting from the ;, or making cawiU, «deUi,to.dv«ce£.©K then to chwge «>»«"* m«. that U. 6l per cent hrt^Xlthatliemathw ,o« upon the- »««J*« . capital lum of f-8o. to; o nav £.♦• per «""'™ ** ySa of rso, being .» lender and the Emigrant, (.•tandatimplythtia:- lforieT«nyearj,butU ix per cent, I Aould be iia.Iwidiyontoe'n^, ingTOur land, 1 will reimt Titltn 1 will «*««• y«« Lm inttead of the lum of "chooee to re lete youi^ C.4.orparUofit,youniay *«erTir.io. that you pay lS5idebt«f£.W,&t «y be allowed to we the at the fame time I mutt will be equal y greatly h off, there will oe more ,fe mother Country, a. the 1 many other advantaget and obiervationa on Ihoie fnearly eight year, m the eIJne,andoneof he Pew* for the Canada* the Emigrant to enter York, Upper Canada, day of BE IT KNOWN to whom it may concern, Tliat A. B. lata of that part of the United Kingdom of Oraat Briuin called it thit day located to the lond lie hai made choice of, namely, the half of Lot N* on ike Coaccetion of the Tuwnthip of in the District of Upper Canada; which land, tiigctlHr with the undcr-nameH articiea, and •laUUnce, will be granted him, on condition that he the tnid A, B. at the expinition of teven'year* from the day of the dale , hereof, payi into the hand* of the Receiver General of Upper Caniuin, ur luch peraon at the. Ltout. Governor', or person adminiitering the sovernbient of Upper Canada for |he time being, thall appoint to receive the tame, the tuin.of £.8o. Hnliiux currency, or £.4. U. 6. per annum, to long at the tame may remain unpaid. Should* thd bcfore-nH|ne ' .' a** J And after he has been i i montht on his land, a Pig, or eight dollars to purchase one. ' • ^ 4 niankett. I Kettle. 1 Frying-pan. 3 Hoes. 1 Spade. 1 Pick-axe. a Felling-axes. 1 Wedge. 1 Hammer. S Gimlets. 61b.of Naiit. 1 Auger. N. JB. — 3 Grindttonei, 3 Whip Saws, and 3 Cross-cut Saws will be placed on each Concession, for the use of the Settlers generally. Quebec, .«dayo( SEVEN Years after the date of this document, I prom te and agree to ray such person as the Lient GoTemor of Upper Canada may appoint to receive the same. Eighty pounds Halifax currency, for valne received, or Foar pounds, H. C. per annum, so long as the said sum 0? Eighty pounds thall remain unpaid ; the said Interett to be paid annually oa the ^ day of ' . in each year. • •• ■ 'it « , • N. B.— It will of course be nnderstood,>that in proportion as the Emigrant's family exceeds or falls short of the supposed number of a adnlu aKd 3 ^ildren, the assumed capital of £. 8o. and iDteast of £. 4. shoi^ld be increased or made leu. . ^ . On reflection,'^ think it would be better to make it a general ttipulalion, that each Emigrant, with hit fitmily, should pay £.80. at the expiration of 7 years; they would alt get sufficient value for their money ; the average woold 'secure Government from lots, and by avoidiug fracbonal pans, save a very great deal of trouble in keeping the accounts. , . 550. 4C 1 If w I, 1 L b \ 'J 1 i,i I. *f U ' , . ■ f h i ■ 5 i • 1' i 57* APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE M J9.— These Antwen of Charki Hat/a, Esq. to the Queries uddresscd to the Colonitl Witnesses, were received too late to be included in the Analysis, Mr. Hayes having transmitted his Answers from D'-blin. Quirt ? • ATof*.— Thli quw^r involvM tht tuppMiliM, ihu lh« n« ^Vf/.-Takipg the whole range of the North K.f/Jr.Vmd\?.fct!X2:;:d"» American Colonies, and reducing them to one nmvni of • MiptrabandiMt popalMlon, w4 rti*t th« Birf. common average, do you thlnl( it would be safe mni't hxMj have twca t yj ii ui w rf tfhy an ^gemspyol a wJ to estimate the expense necessary tor the satis- »y Oo»«n»«n i« MMaiM all nropMMl Ea>lr«Btt. AU factory location of IJ Emigrant fainily. of a jnan. £• «« tf go"rr;"±rr^S-tlS: woman and three children, at less than £.oo. NoEn^rut would baMiiiM to OflNmnMiisMUunMk Cr family, such expense to be incurred after their tb* Coloni**, who had not raceWtd • ? ouchar nrom aOavsn* KJius at a colonial port ? '"*''' "if" *' homo, that luch Emigrant and lamil/ ware "^ '^ propaf lubjacta for raceiving Oovarmaant awistsaca. AirswzR: • . , • Takinf{ it for granted tbnt the Emigrant* to be approved of hy the Govcrnmciil Agent would b« in a ttata of pauperiiin, and ai on their arrivnl in the Colonic* they would consequently be entirely dcpeodeni upoa the Government for (iipport* I do not think it would be lafe to calculate the expente of forwarding, locating and maintaining a family coniiiting of five perioni, for fifteen months, at a leiH lum tlmn £.6o. QuBitr ? Secondlif :—Y)o ^o\i mainly concur in the ne- ^e<«:— Something in the nature of thii Schedule, appH» cessity of assistance to the value of C 6o. fur- «bl« to the necial circumitaocat of tka location of cm^ nished to the Emigrant more or less in the fol- ^^ SfS^^'^^:;'::::^^ SVt^ . vtng proportions? tlon Agent at thecokntol port, tbowing that A« JMAms ■ approved a« an Emigrant, and upon hit oxpreMing hit iriih Averagt Eilimalt of tht Emtnte ofitHUng a FamUu, e&ntul- »» receive thii lort of loan in kind. In ca«e of this oceur- ing of one Man, one Woman, and three Children, in the ''"ft. »• "foul" be called upon to lign tha •ecuritv adverted Brittih North American Prow»««j dittinguithing 1h* to in the next querjr, and then conveyed to liii location a» variout itemi of Expendilmr*. 'bo Oovernnwnt oipanM. Ai two cbildrea oro contidered v _ e r .L ^ « J- _i. I. .1 - A equal to the expenie of an adult, if the family comiatad of Expeniet of conreyance from the port of diiembarkatlon to ."Vwowtr omI Sv* children, or in any other 4icty eT ««. place of location - • ; ' *.io - - portion, regulated by thii priDclpIo of equivalent, would not Frovbiona. via. rrtionj, for 15 »onUia for 1 man, ST £60. le cquSiry aeeSwaT? Evciy lot muit havo a ;nrpS^ortlS:i:i}.".':f£"f'ttf w«kingh«d£^ily.pon'Ti,wl..2L.tb.co«e«.po.. quantity for each child, making 3 ( rationi "^ ™ "" "wwrw. per diem, pork being at £.4 per barrel and Soar at £. 1. 5«. per barrel - • - 40 6 10 Freight of proviiioni to place of MttlenMnt • i 10 10 House for each family ..■-•a-- Implementa, Ac. 4 BbmkeU --•£.- 14 - »|«t»> 5 JO , ,„ , 1 F^mg-pan ... - 1 3 « . 3 Hoea ......46^ 'f- 1 Spade ......ag ' 1 Wedge ->4 1 Auger ....,-ca 1 Pick-axe .... - a - ' a Axe* ..-..|-_ Proportion of Grinditone, • Wbipaaw and croat-cttt saw - - . ^- - —44 - . Freight and charge* on ditto, 15 per cent - - - fb a * £.3 18 - (as^ £.468 Cow •--•••--4 10-. •» Medicines and medical attendance - t t 1 _ _ Seed com ••••.- i Q * Pototoe*, s bush, at »«. 6 grant, that the acceptance of the loan4i to U eiMirtly voiwa- tary on hIa part. prMiaeljr the tome at if any indivMuU h hb owe eo«Mt« had prepoaed, horn matii— of charity, ta adi aa ia hlmaweaef e^ual a w e u at, upon the tame p riae ipla ofrepayaMal. QOBRT t Tkird^: — Do you consider tbat any sort of practicnl diflkiilly will oalst in takinc an tin* cipensive and simple srctirity from the Kmigrant, both personal an well as n lien u|)oo Itia land, for the payment of X-4> per annum mtereat, being at the rate of j per cent upon the sum of yC'^O'i or in otlier words upon the sum of £. Co. unproved « bv deferred interest for seven years to the sum or £.80., interest being only calculated in that '"' ' iaitence at ^. 4. per cent r . • Answer: ..,'*" I do nut connider that onf praclicni difficulty would exiti in tailing an unexpentive and limple security froai the Einigrnnt in the ihapc at an nnoual churgu of £.4. per annum on hit land, tecured by perional ubligniion, being ill contidcration ul the ndvaiice made to him fur liii outfit and location ; it being explained to him that the £ 60. lent to liiro for tcveii years would at the end of tliat time, improved by deterred interest at 4 par cent, amount tof.So. QuEHY A^o/«;— The mode of ettlnating the value of the predaea of the Settler's fhrm in money, would be by a timple eitl* male of market price, mode under prcicribed regalations in Coloniee, and otaasting produce with reference to aach value. Fourthly :— Ho you consider that the Emi^nt Mttler, if not called upon to pay any interest for the space of seven years, will have any difficulty whatever in affording to pay {,• 4* per annum, at the expiration of that period, in money or money's , worth, thatis, intrrainandi>orkofamerchantaDle • quality, estimated upon a givcQ principle of arbi- tration, such Emigrant bavins alwaya a power at ' * his own option of paying off the principle of j£. 80. , .. • , < in instalments of £,• 30. each, in money, until the * whole of the original loan be discharged ? '. Avswkr: Speaking generally, I wonid consider that an Emigrant shonld find no difficalty whatever in paying, at the end of seven years, in money or in money's worth, the charge of £.4. per aaaum, accruing as intciast opoa the advance made to him. •. Query? Fifthly: — Are you of opinion that if this pro- maition be adec^ately explained to the Pauper Emigrant, and if he be made conclusively to understand that it is not a rent for bis land, but » pwment of interest upon a loan of money knt to htm at hii mon rtauett, which loan has been advanced to him in kmd and not in money, that Ife would be in any degree disposed to resist the pay- mentofthis interest, itbeingexplained to him, that - ' ; sji . „..» at any time he has the power of exonerating him- * ' « ' \ self from such payment, by the payment of j^. 80.? ,.,. I' li ' i . V -^ . .. ;.* Answer: • The Pauper Emigrant being made conclnsiveiy to understand the nature of the advance made to blin« wonid not, in my opinion, feel any disposition to resist tlie payment of the interest ; on the contrary, I eon- sider he would teel gratetui for the priviie^ lie enjoyed of paying it on tlie easy lerms proposed, and of being able ultimately to redeem the whole amount. AToto;— This question might not appear more to lie put to a Colonial witneos than to any ether sritaees'i but it naa reference to the disinclination naturally felt to th* payment of rent in countries under the circumstances of our North American Colonies, which contain an indefinite extent of woaU land of fertile quality. '■.W 4Ca $ ii« t ' • i 'i 4 1* i j i 1 ' )^ if APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE QcKHrf iippotiiii th« hMd of a hmUj u lAiw to •bamlMi iIm Io« i »mM m incoMiaf Umm b« ■bk Md willlag to pay Ih* iiil«r«l •t lh« md or Um ■•?•■ ytm, ho of courto tvaUiaf UaMotf .%rtkfy :— In jMe of the detth of the Emimnt, J^'^'t''*, J,"'??'*i,irj «l any period during the Mven years or .fter it, JJ'ji^Sir/JL^^^ do you think there would be any doubt aa to the m ih« ond of Um ■•?•■ y«ar*. bo of couno avatiiaa a value of the improved land being an adequate of iho ImprevooMato ibat iiad lakon plaoo upo9 uai parti* Mcurity for the loan advanced upon! **^ I**- AiriiriM: UnloM in catet of extraorrfinary arcidcnt or continuod lichncM, 1 am of opinioa that tht hontc and in* provemenu muila by an inHuitrioui Emigrant during hit location, would be abundant tecurity for thealoaa advanced | and in ino rvont of death, that an inoomnig wnant could eaaily be found able and willing to pay the iourcst nt the end Of Mven ycari, ao already dncribed. * QubrtT • , Seventhly: — Are you of opinion that any aort of practical difficulty will be found in the levy of this interest, supposing such levy to be mad« under the directions of the Governor f Answer: ^n my opinion no practical difficullv ii likely to exiit in levying the interest (on the advance made to the Emigrant) under the uuthority ol' tlie Ilieutenant Governor ; but should any disinclination to the payment of it be manifctied by the borrower, the Mine meuni exist in Canada as in the United Kingdom to enibrce the recovery. • I „ ^ Qt;»r? . £ifA/A/^ .-—What would be the average ex« pense per cent upon the collection of the in< terest? Answer : TaKing into consideration the great liberality of the Government in advancing the money to the Emigrants, and the f«(;ilitiet ihey propoie to aflbrd in talcing payment of the interest in produce, a clauie might be ' introduced into their aeedi, to require the payment of the annual interest, at the office of the CoUectot appointed by Government, lie giving the Emigrants reasonable notice and making choice of a period of the year favourable to the lale and traniport of their produce. In such case the expense of collection should not exceed 5 per cent; but if the Collector ba»to travel a distance, and collect the interest at intervalt, it would of course proportionably increase the expense. In this question, however, so much depends upon localities, number and circumstances of Emigrants, that no very definite answer could lie given without referring to specific cases. Query? Ninthly : — Are you of opinion that diere would A^«te :— The Coloniss would benaiit neh u My turn all be any sort of indisposition on the part of the ''^cP',?^"«*!^.*'^.!»'«i''» ^** i«ult of Emigradoe, ^_, f. , T ._,_^ ft . r__:i:4.. »« A- *'* *"• axcoptloo of tho interests and repajrments, which .. . . -_. - rtuit necessarily be a •«»» swflil fKirr of tuo actual wealth crested, as is tbewn by IDs concurrent testimoDy of aD the Colonial Witnsssss. Colonial Le^slatures to give every facility to the levy of this interest, in consideration of the ex- treme advantages to the colony which .must ariae from the introduction of a regulateii'jystem of ' Emigration, coiisisting of properly selected Emi- Sants at a proper period of life, who have left eir own country under the circumstince of there being qo demand for their labour? Answer : • I am clearlv of opinion that the intelligent part of the Colonial Legislatures would feel no indisposition to fecilitate the levy of the interest, for they would be at once aware how very advantageous to the country the influx of wealth consequent upon an extensive Emigration would be, and now very efficiently an incnase of population mutt add to the trade, power, and resources of tlie Colonics. \ I ' SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIORATION -i8»: S73 htU utttmUfta idM Um lei I MuM g to |M]r lh« inicml una Mtlllaf MmmIT iIm« upo9 Wat pwU- tha hooae and imp curity for ih««l«tu and willing to pay kdvanca nade to th« n to th« pajf meat of (dom to entbrce th* lej to the Emigruia, !, a cIbuic micht be lice of the Collector of a period of ih* collection ihould not at intervals, it would pendt upon localitiea, without referring to Niilt.—ltmk Individual or a CompaJv in England ad* vanctd <.ion,ooo. on a Mino or on • Canal, ikvy would aiMcl 10 rocaivo titUrtM upon liiair capital ; but cuiihl tha ColonM complain of a raaiilianco lo Eoalaad of ilial is* ItfOll. QohtT TuitMy .—Do vou conctivc, in point of fnct, ^t this propoMl of tdvucing capital to the Bmigranta, ia other words to tha Colqay, diflen from any ipaculation which might be made of ad- fancing capital in anr colonial enterpriie, whether on loan or in minei, for which the capitaliat would naturally require a remunerating interest? An*wbr: -V^ •>■•-,-■;? I Gontidcr the advutagaoaa Invettment •of capilal in a country to be more than equivalent to any injury which might ai flrtt view appear to arise from the withdrawal ol the Interest ; fur as the produce uf the land by the labour of the Emigrarfls will be increased beyond the amount of Interest, (and as otherwise the land would be likely to remain for a considerable time unnruduciive,) such increase must naturally add to their exports, and consaqnently introduce in return, either articles of which they stand in need, or money. Therefore, in my opinion, no poMible appreheiiaion of just complaint need be expected from the Colonists, from the withdrawal of the interest. Qircar? £/Rw»fA/j^;— Whether in the inatance of indi- viduals advancing their capital, a higher rate of bterett would not be expected ; and whether such interest would not be expected to commence at a much earlier period than after the lapse of Mven years? A'o<«;— The proposition herein made is, to advance i. 60. Afee of interest for savsn years, and then to charge iniarast at the rato of £.0. 131. 4^. ptrttnl, that is, 6f per cent upon the original £.flot but as It is intandad that the Mother Country should sustain no ultimato loss upon these loans, tha Emigrant is called upon to repay a capital sum of £. 80. hu staaa of t. 60., and is called upon to pay i.4. par annum at the end of seven ; >' . 1, upon that capital of i. 80., being at the rata of 5 per e«ut upon it. The case, than, u between the lender and the EsaigiaM, supposing It to be an individual case, stands simply thus 1— I land you £.60. free of intarast (br seven years, but u the colonial rato of interaat is sis per cent, I should be Justified in calling upon you to pay £. 3. t a s . for thia sum at tha espiration oTtha first year { but m I wish yen to employ your means eaclusivaly In Improving your lanoi I wiU remit you all interul for seven years, and then I wul charge yoa with an intorest of if. 4. per annum instead of the sum of £.3. I as. I and at aay time, if you ehoosr to relieve your- self flimi this annual payment or £.4. or parts of it, you majr diminish it lathe extent of £. t . by every £, to. that you pay by instalments, in liquidation of the capilal debt a(£. 80, that la of £.60. improved to the value of £.80. in consequence of seven years deferred intorest. lefit twchuMy dram all le result of EmignliM, and rsnaymentsi which r* of tlie actual waalth rent taatimony of all the AVswza : ' , * * . * ' "• Unquestionably private individuals would require the full amount of interest current in the Colonies, which is 6 percent; and also that payment should commence at the expiration of the first year. While as the Government permit their interest to accumulate at 4 per cent for seven years, and then upon the sum thua aeonmnlatcd require only 5 per cent, I should think that both Emigrants and Colonists would feel grateful for the assistance to the one and bcoeflt to the other, and folly appreciato the liberality of the mother Country. Most respectfully submitted by. Sir, * Your most obedient Servant, , To the Right Hon. R. Wilmot Horton, M. P. • Charla Haya. 8lc. lu:. 8w. ^ Dublin, agib May 1897. ■ J :1 no indisposition to >us to the country the ciently an ioc w a t e of 550. 4C3 4. 574 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE Appradixt N* 4. — 1. — RETURN of Bbitish Subjxcts who have emigrated direct from the United . Kingdom to New York ; also, a Retam' of those who enigrated to His Majesty's Possessions in North America, but who afkecwards removed into the State of New York ;— during the Years 1834, 1835 and 1836. «-—»■-•— YBAU 1 COUNTRY. DifMtte NcwYnk. ' By QatbM. Bj NewBruniek ■ad NaraScodi. TOTAL i8a4 - - England Ireland 1.1 S3 1.105 t,-^.-V;r. .^^-^ Scotland • 144 3.330 ^ 676 , ,y \ -. ■" .,, . ■-, «^7a 6,378 "1. ~. '' ':'.'- ,r'. »»«5 - - En^and • 1,881 ; Irdud • - «f46a , -; ■}■ Scotland • - * 198 »fi¥» • 4i54i M*i - r -'''' ■' ,'^ 'j:j:^^^^ iii6 - ■ ■ > ■ Bagtand . • Inland . • «,005 1 ' "S Scotland • 137 4,060 1.354 • . ♦ * * * 6.117 ttt.«3i * ia.030 11,038 3^ aS^ i*J SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION:— 1837. 575 — 3. — ABSTRACT of the Returns made to the House of Commons, and ordered to be printed 1 5 April 1 834« showing the Expense incurred in County Rates for removing Paupers from some o^thc Counties in England and Wales to Ireland and Scotland. ^.B.— Tliia Expenditure has been greatly increased since the imperfect Return made in 1804. TOTAL. 6,378 9461 JIB470 ■ ll >■! :■%•:'' DATE Fraa whit Canal; EXPENSES iocamd EXPENSE! iiKiimd 1 ilMlUtam. in EMhUMlMd WtlM. •DdVignM. udTiinati. 1834: £, i. d. £. *. d. 4Mardi - - Berkshire - • - 419 • 8 — • 7 February • 11 March • • 19 — - - Cambridgeshire • Wisbech • . • Chester Cumberiand • 69 10 3 6 414 a 15 11 9 9 8 13 - 9 60 7 54 » 8 6 . 10 February - 13 — - - 9 — - - Devon ... Dorset . . - Durham - • • 17 11 9 - ': 19 9 6 1 70 4 9 9 March • • Essex (East DirisioD) ■ 41 17 9 3 4 - : 14 February • RIoucestar City of Glouecater 448 18 13 11 4 4 MM* '■'■^'■v ; 19 April • • City of Bristol - 733 >3 1 — ,- 1 . ■ 14 February • 91 — - • HanU - y..,~- f Huntingdoa' '- • • 6 5 1 13 8 3 i 101 8 7 -■■...;_ 19 — - - Kent • • - 44 7 6 - »7 4 ; v.'v 10 — . - 14 — - - 7 — - • Lancaster • - Leicester ... .Lincohishire • - r Li*«oIn . . - • 539 9 - 11 10 199 9 6 ll • ♦ "A i 11 — • • . ITipesei;.. . - - 594 7 7 54 a 10 r ii — • - Neweaatre.upoa.TyM . 943 13 94 10 5 9 3 5 6 8 6 130 - 39 17 97 » 10 „J«- It — • • 9 — . - 16 May - . DOHMVMt Staford • . . CiMofLidificU . . Sufelk . • . »9 4 34" »^ 17 18 - 10 8 11 8 8 4 111 18 5 • 4 * 9 8 loFebnary • Rutland . • > 93 19 - 3 18 9 7 — - - Susses . • . * . . . 1 18 - ■0 — - - WarwiekshEro .> • 999 10 - 55 " 8 19 January CoTentry ... - 6 - — ■■-.-. 14 February - SI — - - Westmorhud WUts - - - 445 13 10 95 16 - 7 »0 Ju 18 — - . Yurluhiro • • • - 16 6 8. 4 - 9 — - - City of York - - . . - It 6 10 — • - Anglesey - - • 50 14 7 — '\. 9 — - • Denbigh . • 3 > 8 — Pembroke - • . 97 1. - 4C4 ^ # -J J7« ■f « ' APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE Appendix, N* 5. Ir r i^if }■ .! i ,*' "^ AN APPBAL to the Nation, from the Directors and Central CommittM of the Oeneiial Arsociation, establisl^d in London for the purpose of bettering ^ ' ' * the condition of the Manufacturing an* Agricultural Labourers, to secure the „ property and promote the welfare of all classes of society, by the encourage- ment of Industry and reduction of Poor-rates. Appeal to tbe Na- 1. THE General Association was formed, pursuant to Resolations passed at a tioD b^r tbe General Public Meeing held at the great room of the Golden Lion, West Smithfield, on the 19th Association for of February, 1837 ; and a Committee of Management appointed, who have drawn ap this bettering tbe con- Appeal. dition of Laboareis, 3. The Committee are aware that some of the doctrines contained in the subjoined Reso- *''*■ ''^- lutions do not accord with the opinions of most irifluential men ; but the anomalous fact, of * ^ ' a people being wretched in proportion to their means of prodocing plenty, affords conclu- sive evidence of the error of prevailing opinion. The doctrine of leaving labonr to find its own level, is in principle subversive of all order, and cannot be acted upon with safety by any community surrounded by monopolies and exclusions, as in Great Britain. 3. The principles contended for are, that, as the great majority of every nation is nece«« sarily composed of those whose sole properlyiia their labour, their interests should be' the principal object of every alteration in the laws which regulate trade. Whenever labour receives an ample and steady reward, every trading class in the community must necessarily ^ be in a thriving condition, and afford the surest indicationof national prosperity, and the most powerful stimulus for individual exertion. 4. To the influence of a runious system of tWrnifiial competition, in reducing the wages of labour, is to be ascribed, not only the unexampled poverty and misery of the labouring, but the embarrassment and ruin of the mercantile and trading; classes. 5. The necessity of legislative interference on the behalf of labourers is much felt, and it is thought, that no principle hitherto submitted, would have a tendency so advantageously < to regulate wages, as that set forth in the Sixth Resolntion. 6. The necessity of snch regulation is apparent, from the circumstance, that all persons whose incomes are derived from landed property — the funds— tithes — law fees — and from monopolies of every kind, are subject to and protected by conventional regulations ; and that labour, and labourers alone, are subjected to the individual competition of un- principled or speculative contractors or employers ; that such competition undermines the value of stock created by fair wages ; enables speculators to make a profit at the expense of labourers, or the parishes who are compelled to make np a portion of their just wages; though commodities may be nominally cheaper to consumers, they make up part of the deficiency of price in additional parish rates, and the fair dealins employer must reduce wages to come into the same market, or be driven from the field of honourable competition. Thus, the artizans and labourers who most need protection, are most oppressed ; their wages progressively reduced, until they are nearly destroyed as customers both for home and foreign produce; and there being no means of paying for British produce exported, but by proceeds created in the sale of foreign prodnce imported and internally consumed, (without incurring a nationar loss) the foreign market for British manufactures is destroyed •0 a corresponding extent. Thus about four millions of p«gh|ytdependent on manufactures, r.nd as many more dependent on agriculture, are nearly I ^Sf ijtea as customers, the profits on the re-expenditure of whose wages alone, if duly rewlMra, t^uld be more than equal * to the foreign equivalents at present received for British ml^factnres exported. 7. Protection to Labour is rendered further necessary,from't)ieoompetitionof Machinery with Manual Labonr, by which a large portion of that -Lajbour is superseded, and the ' « remainder greatly diminished in value. The consequent chf^pness of commodities enables persons having fixed money incomes to consume iMore; yet the consequent reduction of wages diminishes the power of producers to consume in a still j;reater r^tio, because of the relative disproportion in the number of producers, to pertons having fixed money incomes. 8. As it is Labour alone which gives value to land and to raw materials for manufacture, whatever tends to increase the productive power of the country ought necessarily to increase the comforts of the majority ot the people in a corresponding proportion ; and, as it is the tendency of improved scientific power to increase the produce of the country, were that power properly directed, such would be the inevitable result. But it is a fact, discreditable to the political pretension ot'the age, that the comforts of the majority of the people, in- stead of increasing with that power, have actually declined. For instance, while the price of subsisting commodities and the power of producing cottons have increased, insomuch ■>^ that one periton can perform the labour of one tkoutOMO and tixty-ux, previous to the iraprove- -' ments of Watt and Arkwright, the wages of the cotton weavers have been reduced four, five, six, and even seven shillings out of eight I scarcely affording a scanty subsistence of potatoes, oatmeal, salt and water; and there is no limit of depreciation to Mi\ivA\-Machinery alone will not reduce the wages of the whole manual labour of the country, that can sustain human existence, unless labourers have the benefit of the protection sought. 9. Properly, ,*;:' -, > i'; ' :-?f'^B8fc.:^.:..=t.^.ttiriir iiiiiiiiaiirfniiriiiir- ■• llli/-'-1"— ^-"f*""***'"" ' - '■*■ ■'*S«>>^»K-''g SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION:— 1837. 577 UDoittM of the B of bettering to secure the le encourage- sf paised at a d, on the loth ! drawn np this lUbjoined Reso- imaloas fact, of afTords concla- ibonr to find it* I with lafety by in. nation is nece*> should be the 'henever labour nust necessarily iperhy, and the iicing the wages if the labouring, luch felt, and it I advantageously that all persons -law fees — and iial regulations; npetition of un- undermines the it the expense of leir just wages; e up part of the yer must reduce >le competition, sed ; their wages for home and ce exported, but nally consumed, ures is destroyed )n manufactures, mers, the profits mure than equal oried. ofMACHINEBT erseded, and the imodities enables uent reduction of ratio, because ving fixed money for manufacture, isarily to increase and, as it is the ountry, were that act, discreditable f the people, in- le, while the price reased, insomuch us to the improve- rednced four, five, itence of potatoes, tchinety alone will sustain human in 9. Properly, 9. Property, and not labour, is obviously the most legitimate object for taxation. The Appeal to the N^ property which is invested in machinery operates a* a direct tax upon labour — it not only tion by ther,tneral enpersedes the labour of many, and, by competition with, diminiitlies the wages of those who Auociation for are employed, but in order to obtain a mere subsistence, it coinpcU ihem to multiply iheir bettering tbo coa- Jwurs of application, and consequently their products; thus it produces the anomaly of diiion of Labouren, «roating goods and destroying customers at the same time. Hiiherto it has not hcen shown ^'- *"=• how the benefits of machinery can be diffused over society at large, under existing institutions, ^ ^^— — r^ although no problem is more important to be solved. — The Committee are not such Vandals as ■ wish to retard the progress of scicntinc improvement, but they consider that the greatest vantages may be obtained by a transfer of an equitable portion of the taxes from commo- tiM ivrsubsistenceaiulcoml'ort,to steam power and muchinery; and whichmay be efl'ected 'vuhout any sensible diminution of the aggregate profits of machinery. The policy of a tax on steam power, is also suggested by the propriety of ascertaining the extent of the productive resources of the country. The adaptation of such a tranfer is apparent, from the Act, that machinery produces without consuming, while taxation is an absorption or coo- snmption without re-production ; a vast amount of which absorbing principle is imposed . upon the country by iht national debt, which obviously ought to be laid upon thai power which produces without consuming, rather than on that power which must consume in order to proouce. If, for example, the tax on printed cottons was transferred to cottons wove in power looms, no diminution in the consumption of cottons would take place, whilst the competing influence of the power looms with the wages of hand-loom weavers would be diminished, and their comforts thereby increased. The Committee consider this subject demands the deepest attention of every patriotic mind in the country ! 10. Whatever has a tendency to improyp the wages of manufacturing labourers, neces- sorily tends to improve the wages of agricultural labourers also, which, under a speculative system, have been exposed to similar oppressions with the former. To obviate which, it will eventually be necessary to renew the Acts empowering the magistrates to'sccure to them wages sufficient to purchase at least two bushels of wheat a week, and thereby restore to them the bushel which has been taken from them. 11. Eminent practical and scientific men have proved that we have in the United King- dom, millions of acres of waste lands which only need cultivation to yield a bountiful supply ^ of food ; and it is known' that we have millions of people who are not half fed, who are willing to work, and millions of capital seeking employment. It is therefore certain that both manufacturing and agricultural labourers would be benefited, and the prosperity of the country be promoted, by the cultivation of a part of the waste lands, and the allotment of small portions to cottagers and labourers, (instead of sending the people from the land of their fathers, at an expense which must create as much misery as it is intended to get rid of) and thereby to found a new colony within, which will be equivalent to annexing so much land to tne shores of our own island, and which will augment and invigorate that power by which our territories have been so long and so ably defended. These facts prove the fallacy of tne modern doctrine of a redundant population, which never can exist where all being employed can produce enough to supply the wants of all. When poverty and misery are occasioned by subtraction, or by capital and labou;- la}ing dormant, any appa- rent redundancy cannot result from natural causes, but must be occasioned by vicious, arti- ficial, or conventional institutions. — -- 13. The question of Wages has been taken up, not on the principle of those mistaken theorists, who teach that the labourer and employer have interests in opposition to each other, and thereby to encourage oppression and generate bad feeling, keeping up a perpetual and unequal conflict, as well as di\erting the attention of both from the true causes of their diflSculties — but on the principle, that the interests of employerc and workmen are mutually dependent on each other, and thereby to generate that mutual good understanding and kind feeling which subsisted between them in the best days of English hospitality and social enjoyment. 13. From all past experience it is evident, that the exertions of any single Trade for remedial measures must be unavailing ; and therefore, a General Association, not only of Manulucturers and Workmen, but of all classes who feel an interest in and are favourably disposed towards the objects sought, is indispensable to the attainment of any real good. 14. Fruin the magnitude and beneficence of the objects contemplatetl, a great expenditure must be incurred. It will.be neces^^iry for the Association to carry wiih them public opinion. The press must be availed of; postage and agents must be provided fur. From the inte'est that has been excited on other occasions, it is evident that a vast extent of good feeling exists in the country, which uoly requires the developement of proper objects to excite and draw it into useful operation. 15. The ol)jects sought cannot but be interesting to all claiisesi for if the wages of the indusliious artisan and labourer suffer a depreciation, depriving them of the means of obtaining their proper share of the necessaries of life, entailing upon them ail the accuinu* lated ills of poverty, in a corresponding ratio does the diminished re-expenditure nf wage* aflfect the profits of the shopkeeper, brewer, farmer, manufacturer, merchant, and dealers of every description, and eventually must overtake the landowners themselves. 16. The strong feeling that is known to exist in many places, in favour of the great objects embodied in the Resolutions, 10 improve the condition of the working classes — to restore the comlbris uf the distressed, without injuring any other class— the impulses of humanity, of patriotism, and the satisfaction of being instrumental in aineliornting tlic miseries and ex- alting the present condition of mankind — are arguments deemed suflicicnt to induce this Appeal to all who wish well to their fellow men, to lend their aid, either pecuniary or othei- 550. 4 D wise, mi It 578 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE ; «,' Appetl to the Na- wile, in lupport of a cause, the justice and humanity of which must be so erident. It is tion by the General repeated, that the object sought ti a fair and adequate remuneration for labour; an uqequi- A»«ociiition for taule remuneration for which necessarily and inevitably diminishes the means of purchasing bettering the con- the^roducts of labov in a greater degree than the reduced price of commodities tends to dition of Labourers, increase the means of consumption ; whilst, on the other hand, tliough a high remuneratioa ^<=- ^'- tends to enhance the price of products, it is as obvious that the higher the remaneration, in so much greater ratio will the means to purchase the products be increased, and thus all the varied interests of the great social compact be impioved. This becomes an additional argu- ment for the well-disposed to cooperate by forming District Associations, where men of talent, leisure and property may assist by judicious counsel and every other means in so laudable an undertaking as the promoting the best interest of mankind. 17. As soon as the further necessary arrangements can be made, another Public Meeting will be called, to report the proceedings of the Committee, and more fully to ex|.lain their views ; and it is trusted they will be able to sliow that the foundation is laid for a favoarable change in the condition of the People, which can only be accomplished bj their mutual exertions. {The name* qf the Director* of the General Asioeiation mill be given at the ntst Public Meeting."] The following Resolutions were passed at a Public Meeting held at the Oolden Idom, West Smithfield, London, on the oth, and by adjournment on the lath and 19th days of February 1S37; Thomas Livesey, Esq. in the Chair. 1 . THAT this Meeting considers the first duty of legislation to be the equal protection of the Interests of every class in the Community; and that as Laboub alone renders land and raw materials of anif value, the Labourer ought to have an equal, if not the ^ri( claim to legiilative protection, 3. That experience obliges us to declare, that whilst Landowners and others are pro- tected in their increased and increasing means of power to monopolize the products of industry, the Labouring Classes, from inability to procure a sufficiency of those necessaries and comforts which they produce in such abundance, are fast approaching to tliat state of destitution and degradation, which must tend to diminish their respect for and attachment to His Majesty's Government, and deprive it of that support which has hitherto been found available in cases of necessity. 3. That the natural inference to be drawn from the foregoing facts is, that there exists an interest in opposition to that of the mass of the people, which neither feels for nor sympathizes in its distresses, nor manifests any inclination to afford relief; either by pro- tecting them from any injurious change of circumstances, which may diminish the demand for their labour, or allowing them to participate in the advantages derived from any favour- able change; thus, whilst production, or the means of national wealth, has jncreoira, wages, or the reward of labour, have diminithtd. 4. That, although this Meeting has no wish to impede the national advantages to be derived from Machinery and Scientific Improvement*!, but on the contrary, is inclined to encourage their application, especially where they supersede the dangerous parts of Manual Labour, or perform a public service which would be lost without such power, it is never- theless a fact which this Meeting deeply deplores, that a system has grown up by which Manual Labour is so much superseded, the power of production so astonishingly increased, and yet the means of consumption, by the majority of the people, diminished, — a tyttem tHiicli has thus reduced thousands from competence and comfort to poverty and wretched- ness, which has enriched the few at the sacrifice of the many — cannot be considered in the light of a PUBLIC GOOD, but a national evil. 5. That this Meeting cannot refrain frqm expressing its unqualified belief that much good would result to the country at large, and to the working classes in particular, by a transfer of a great portion of taxes on commodittes of subsistence and comfort, to Steam Power and Machinery; inasmuch as it is the property of Machinery to produce without consuming, and by competing with the wages of labourers, prevents their consumption in a corresponding ratio. 6. That the prevailing disposition of unprincipled or mistaken Employers to speculate at the expense of the Labourer, and the competition of Machinery with the wages of Manual Labour, requires a law to make Agreements, entered into at any Meeting of Mas- ters and Journeymen, valid and binding on ail parties in such trade, in any district where such Meeting takes place, and thereby prevent individual reductions, and protect the fair dealing Employer from ruinous competition, and the Working Classes from pauperism and ■tarvation. 7. That a General Association of Employers and Employed appears to this Meeting to be absolutely necessary for effecting any important object calculated to benefit the Working Classes; and for the more efreciuully attaining these great (^bjecls, a centra! Committee be formed, with power to add to their number; and that Trades, Societies, and other classes favourably disposed, be invited to' join them by sending Representatives or otherwise, for the purpose of co-operating in the measures recommended in the foregoing Resolutions, for their mutual protection, and eventually bettering their condition. 8. That the Committee be instructed to publish the Resolutions, with a circular, illastr»- tive of their views; and transmit the same to all the Trade Societies in the kioKdom to 'Which they can communicate; and that an Appeal be made to such Societies, and to the {! intelligence. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION >-t837. 579 intelligence, good feeling, nnd telf-intereit of all claitet, eapecially Landowners, Merchants, Farmer!, Manufacturers and Shopkeepers of every descriplioo, for assistance in carrying the views of the Association before the Legislature, Sec. 9. That Thomas Wrii^ht, Esq. of West Smiihfield, be appointed Treasurer of thf Asso- ci«tion ; and Thomas Livesey, Esq. of the Triangle, Hackney, and Thomas Dean, Esq. of Barnsbury Park, Middlesex, be appointed Auditors. 10. That no Monies be paid on account of the Association, without an order signed by the Chairman and three of tne Directors of the General Association. 1 1 . That when the Committee snal! have made the necessary arrangements, another Public Meeting of the Association shall be culled, to report the proceedings of the Com- mittee, and more fully to explain the purposes of the Association. 12. That the thanks of the Meeting be given to the Chairman, for his able, considerate ud impartial conduct in the chai.. ^ .^ ^ ^ m&am Long Ifbri,]"'"'' S««- %• Letters and Communications to be addressed (post paid) to either of the Secretaries, at the King's Head, Poultry ; and for the accommodation of Trades hnd Associations, Copies of tne Appeal, Sic. may be had at 121. per hundred, of the Secretaries, and of Mr. Limbird, Bookseller, near Somerset House, Strand. Appendix, N*6. LETTER from Mr. J. A$tle, to the Select Committee on Emigration. ,! My Lords and Gentlemen, Dublin, May 31, 1827. I BEG leave respectfully to submit for your consideration Two Modes by which a partial removal of our Pauper Population in Ireland may be eflected ; one Plan would be accom- plished at no expense, and the other with an early and certain repayment of the necessary advances. During the past three years, I have authorized my agent in Quebec to receive cash from persons who wish to provide passage, and, if required, food, for their nominees from this country to Canada; but experience having shown that nearly all tlie parties, whose passage is so paid, are paupers aqd orphans, I have in future declined their con- veyance. Similar experiments by other merchants have produced the same result. These unfortunate destitutes, however unfit for mercantile speculation, are exactly the parties, whose removal in a national view is most desirable ; I would therefore strongly recommend that the colonial authorities be authorized to receive cash, or security, for passage from Ireland to Canada. The persons who pay the money are generally relatives, and quite capable of receiving and providing for their friends. In considering the other Plan, it is necessary to inform the Committee, that I have annually numerous applications to convey Emigrants from hence on redemption, which means the persons wish to bind themselves to me as apprentices, that I might repay myself the expense of ^heir conveyance out of the- produce or sale of their labour in America. I have never taken out persons on these terms, nor it it the practice of British shipowners. The constructiop of a Military Canal being contemplated in Canada, would afford a fair trial of this system, Ireland would be partially relieved, and the Canal formed at less txpense, taking the labour required as worth in Ireland 1 s. per day, and in Canada 31. to 4 s. I would ptopose forwarding sufficient Pauper Labourers from Ireland, who would gladly accept is.6d per day until the balance of value in their labour had repaid their conveyance. By approprii.ting a portion of all Parliamentary Grants for Public Works in Canada to this object, His Majesty's government would relieve us from a Pauper Population which threatens to overwhelm all capital and industry in Ireland with common ruin, ■',.■• . ' , Your obedieut Servant, (signed) A John AttU' 4 1)2 I ■>^ in: :; ■ •• I APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE Appendix, N* 7. • COMMUNICATION from the MENDICITY SOCIETY of London. SIR. Mendicity Office, Red Lion Square, 3^th June 1897. IN confonnity with the directions contained in your Letter of the 28th ult. returns hare been prepared, c f all the Irish who have come before the notice of the Society, from the com- mencement of its operations to the latest possible period. The Irish have always formed the most considerabje portion of our applicants; and as many of them are not street beggars, and therefore not stncUy within the Society's plan, a distinc- tion was taken in the year 1820, from which time the Irish cases are divided into Registered and Non-registered ; the former class consisting of Irish beggars, the latter of Irish paupCn. This distinction and the reasons for its adoption are fully explained in the last Annual Report of the Society, which is now in the press ; an Extract from which is forwarded herewith, and to which I beg leave to refer you. The Society has no means of ascertaining with precision the number of Irish poor in tha Metropolis ; but from the manner in which these applicants have increased at their office, and from other circumstances, there can be no doubt that it has of late considerably augmented, and some cases have recently occurred, in which it appeared that the parties had been furnished with the means of reaching London by their employers in Irelanu. 1 have the honour to be. Sir, Your most obedient Servant, The Rig^t hon»" R. J. W. Horton, W' H, Bodkin. &c. &c. &c. * • Vf ' Hon' Secretaiy. EXTRACT from the Ninth Report of the Society for the Suppression of Mendicity. ...... But while from these causes the number who are considered legitimate objects of attention has declined, applicants of another class havecontinued to increase ; and as this class consists almost entirely of the lower Irish, the Managers trust they shall be excused for making one or two observations upon a subject which has assumed a character of no ■mall importance. *' Of the absolute necessity of confining their attention to Street Beggars, to the exclu- sion of every other description of poor, as the only mode by which their labours can be beneficial to the community, the Managers have repeatedly spoken ; and although this rule may not always have been rigorously observed dunng periods of unusual pressure, still the Managers have endeavoured to adhere to it as strictly as the circumstances in which they have been placed would permit. The Irish poor, however, those especially who migrate periodically to this country in search of employment, and in the absence of any means of support in Ireland, have always formed an excej>tion to this rule ; because it is found impos- sible altogether to disregard their appUcations, notwithstanding thev may not be stnctly within the Society's province. Whenever, therefore, individuals of this description obtain tickets (accomplished in most instances by applying at the houses of the subscribers,) their names and description are entered in a book distinct from the cases of street beggars. Their numbers during the last five years have been as follow: In 1833 1833 1834 l83S l8s6 3,106 3,636 3,803 «.994 " It win be seen by this statement that an incraaae of one thousand and four applicants of this kind has taken place in the last year, as compared with the year immediately pre- ceding ; end when it is considered that this number has since continued rapidly to augment^ it will be perceived that the period has arrived for taking some decisive measures in respect of a class of poor which threatens so powerfully to affect the Society's operations. * Their Dombers during the pttsent year (1897) up to May 31st, are 4t056, ' »•• » \^. SELECT COMMITTEE OP EMIGRATION i—iSa;. S8i " The Subicriben are aware that paupera of thii deacription are not now entitled to any parochial relief, and that power is given to maEittrates. on their becoming chargeable to any pariah in EnKland, to remove them back to their native country in the way va^ranta uied tbrmerly to be paiaed. It will therefore be readily believed that the Managera finij.them- aelves in a most painful situation when hundreda of these applicants present themselvea in a state of apparent destitution ; «nd they trust they shall not incur t^Hpleasure when they atate, that hitherto they have consented to supply them daily with food,eHpecially when their distreaa haa been agf^vated bv any extraordinary circumstances. The severity of the weather during a portion of the last winter will be in the recollection of the Subscribers: and during that period of general and unusual pressure, the Society's house was thronged with the Irish and their iamilies, to whom about aix hundred rations of food were daily diatributed. Whether cases of this character oueht to be entertained, even to this extent, by the Institution, has always been ^ difficult and embarrassing Question. If it were urged, that, not being street begears, they were not strictly objects of tne Society's attention, the probability of their immediately becoming so on the refusal of relief was too strong to escape consideration ; and the anxiety of the Managers to avoid the danger of increasing the evil by injudicious encouragement was necessarily qualified by an apprehension, that those who might thus be driven to seek the aid of casual charity, might gradually become reconciled to the practice, and never again return to habits of honest industry. In this dilemma, it waa hop^ that the plan recently adopted, of giving relief by employment alone, would in aome decree check auch applications ; but however beneficially the power to give work haa operateain other respects, this expectation has not been realized. The tickets which are insolently rejected by the English beggar, are eagerly sought by the Irish pauper; tha work refused by the one with acorn, has been undertaken by the other with alacrity, and in general performed with thankfulness, even at the most reduced rate of wages. Con- aequently, it is obvious that the Institution possesses no means of effectually checking thia growine evil ; and there may be ground for apprehending that it was encouraged in some aegree by the assistance, slender as it may appear, that has been afforded, and which the Managera felt naturally reluctant to withhold. " That the Irish poor are allured to this country by the slightest expectation of obtaining either employment or eleemosynary aid, admits of no question. It is worthy of serious consideration, therefore, whether the continual practice of passing them home, however desirable, as an alternative when the right to parochial assistance was first withdrawn, may not be injurious as a permanent arrangement; and whether a considerable inducement to migrate is not held out by the certainly, that whatever be the result of the journey, they ' can now travel back at the public expense, with a daily allowance for their sustenance on the road, in many cases amounting to more than the ordinary wages of labour in their own country. All the objections indeed which were made to the old practice of passing English vagrants to their parishes, apply with equal force to the system now under con- sideration ; equally harsh as it respects the reully necessitous, it has the same tendency to encourage the predatory habits of the idle and dissolute. " The details of the method by which the removal is effected are not unimportant. A serious alteration in the mode haa recently taken place. The office of pass-master for Middlesex is abolished ; and instead of the former custom, of conveyance by a public officer acting for the county at large, it is now left to the officers of every parish to forward, in their own way, the Irish who may become burthensome. " The Managers believe that in sanctioning this alteration, the magistrates were actuated by a desire to have the law in this respect literally acted upon ; but the change is doubtlesa calculated to be extremely prejudicial. The opportunity now afforded to paupers of this description to apply to dinerent parishes at their discretion, and thus to ootain the meana of travelling from London at the expense of each in succession, must lead to extensire frauds ; which, in the absence of any eeneral system of communication among the parishes, Mrill too probably be pursued with perfect security. " The Managera cannot therefore avoid expressing their conviction of the benefits likely to accrue from an official inquiry into the present mode of removing this class of paupera firom London, and also generally into the aituation and management of the Irish poor in thia metropolis. " They are the more anxious to invite the attention of the Legislature to this atibject, because uiey fear it will soon become imperative upon the Society to exclude thia class of applicanta nom its attention." I f" \ ' ■ *»■ 'W SSO- 4 D 3 ■ tf ifi 5«« APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE MENDICITY SOCIETY, LONDON. I|i \ A RETURN of the Number of Ibiim Msnoicants who have applied for Relief; from the formation of the Institution in March 1818, to the end of May 1837. I. • • IRISH CASES REGISTEBED. 1SI8. Mn. WOMII. ChUdna. TOTAL. REMARK*. From 96th of March , • 7 6 10 •3 April ■ . 66 54 68 187 May . - 50 54 78 186 JiUM - 66 70 07 333 July . - Augott 57 48 57 39 «9 59 803 146 A period of g moiitha. September - 30 *5 45 109 October Ci 70 10a 333 • Kovember • 116 118 160 39!* V December • 94 104 ■ U7 345 4 61a 597 850 *fiSii • 1 «• IRISH CASES REGISTERED. 1819. Men. Woinai. Cbildieo. TOTAL. REMARKS. January - 115 118* >49 383 February - 108 88 taj 319 March l«4 »=5 . 160 409 AprO - - .«*. 103 H» 334 Vbj- ' - • 87 84 101 373 June - - . - 64 74 106 a44 July . ■ - - 5a 45 .46 143 « August «9 39 43 111 , September 40 40 50 130 October - - 55 44 58 »5> Kovember - 68 69 '■ 74 311 December - 30 73 105 857 91a ■ 901- 1,150 2,963 SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION :— 1827. 483 Return of the Number of Iriih MendicanU who have applied for JUMtt—coiHimitd. IRISH CASES REGISTERED. 1830. Mea. Women. CbiMirn. TOTAL. REMARKB. January February . 369 99 305 80 583 115 1,956 894 In this year the Irith ap- plicant* were fint divided into two cloiiet; the first March 90 65 9" "47 (called Registered Cues) consisted of Irish mendi- April May • 60 77 63 70 87 79 909 a>6 cants ; the second (called Non-registered Coses) in- cluded those who applieil| to June • July - . 7» 55 56 6" 80 81 307 188 the Society with ticiceU, which they had procured at the houses of subscriber!, August September October fl5 43 49 58 34 40 110 45 67 333 133 136 but who had not solicited charity in the public streets; of tha latter class, the greater portion were per- son* who had recently ar- November 37 40 37 »54 rived in this country from Ireland. December 6 37 39 150 In this year, the Act of 1,089 899 >i454 • 3. 49 the 5gth Geo. 3. c. 13. came into i IRISH CASES NON-REGISTERED. iSao. Men. Wonen. Childran. TOTAt. REUARKS. From • ' February - March • - April May - - - June . - - J3 >3 >3 10 8 >4 »9 10 13 7 11 13 5 >3 9 39 44 38 35 «4 into operation ; and aa the "ffect of that Act wa* *ud- denly to deprive the Irish of Parochial Relief in this country, the applications to 'the Society on the part of the reiident Irish, greatly increased. July - - - 8 3 9 30 •w ■ i August 15 8 •8 31 • M../,"''i. September • 9 3 5 16 October - 8 10 »3 3« f '*•.,- November - 16 13 fi 39 December < »♦ 13 »5 41 ^ 137 » 110 111 • . . , ■» 4D4 3*4 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THB Return of the Number of Iriih McndicanU who haft applied for Rtliaf->coii/iMMrf. IRISH CASES REGISTERED. iNi. M«». Womrn. Chlldraa. TOTAI™ REMARK!. Janury 5* 3" 30 '34. February - 57 4« M 153 March - - 50 49 63 lOa • April - . *9 «7 31 88 May . . - 40 31 4« 113 June . . ■ >3 10 so 43 July • ■ . •9 >5 '5 «9 • Augutt ■6 91 34 8a / 14 9 11 34 » October - 38 «5 36 97 November • so 30 >9 C9 December • 4« 40 61 14a \l 407 333 446 1,186 IRISH CASES NON-REGISTERED. \n If 1831. Mmi. Woma. ChlMna. TOTAL. RIHARU.' • • ■ ' ■ January • 46 86 - 19 9« t February - 9 4 - >3 March • • 16 >3 80 49 April aa t5 31 58 May • 76 43 «5 184 June - . - 79 37 50 166 July . . • 7» 36 53 160 August 76 4» 63 180 September 53 3» 40 183 • , October - 78 66 84 ai8 November - lao 7» 95 887 December'- 95 77 107 «79 , • . 740 461 617 1,818 , ssrr SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIORATION : -iDt;. ■Vft 1 ^' IRISH CASES RKUIMEHEb. iMa«. Min. W..nuw. ChiMmi. roT.VI.. REMAIlKit. Juiiuarjr r> 93 ■id 90 December - 58 3« 49 •33 - /.., 7«tf 3«4 508 I.5C1 ' & IRISH CASES NONUEGISTURED. i&as. Mm. Wonicn. CbiMfcii. TOTAL. REMARKS. January - Ill 79 9> 981 ■■.....•.. February . 67 65 83 a>5 '•■'''■ March 64 65 83 ■iia 1 " ' i . - April 69 36 53 1,08 ■. May - • - 46 39 48 •33 ; ' .- ' ^_ June - 36 41 63 140 '1 ^ ■ ■ July - . 95 53 63 911 ; t - .', ^ Auguit 7« 55 47 •74 ' \. .. ..... September 3« 41 59 136 U ........( October - - 43 39 5> «33 .>;,, ^' ■> November - 48 44 56 148 ]_ -;'>t'»».^ *uy» December - 54* 49 63 165 '^._ = • ■u.Wi.w/iri 74« 606 1 759 1 3,to6 - ■ ■ -"* 550. 4 £ lM APPENDIX TO Til I HI) HP.PORT OP TUB Rvurn of ilw NuoitMr of Iriah Mtadicanu »li« luvt i^lM far lU W niu mtid . IRIMH CASE8 HEUIfTERED. iltig. M»n. Wuiwn. CbMUNii. TOTAL. MKMARKI. January 34 3> fl3 • 33 • February «4 35 83 March 40 3> 138 April . 4» fitf 134 ■ May ■4 >7 4A Juna - la ai 54 July - «7 •S O4 .4, Auguit 7 la 31 Saptambar • 9 II 14 '■^'^'^ Octobar 6 13 34 . _fi-jt _ November ■ «9 •i* 75 , December • 38 «5 i6 «H) 188 3j9 396 980 w IRISH CASES NON-REGISTERED. IB93. He... WOID€ll* ChUdnn. TOTAL. REMARKS. Juuary 187 87 Oi 335 Fabruary • 96 54 63 ai3 March 85 79 73 a37 Apri] ■ - 7» 58 «9 •98 May - 118 55 76 849 June • 109 56 64 «!'9 July - - - 89 7« '/.) 1.V - Augott 88 56 73 ai7 September - 54 58 44 >56 October - 66 61 49 176 W November • 81 57 4« 180 Oacemb.i - ga 73 53 ai8 1.136 765 735 8,636 ■ ^'■^■'- SRLErT COMMITTED ON KMinRATI0.H:-.|Hi7. A"7 Avtarn •< ikf Nawtw wt IrWi Mmiicwiu wIm kavt apptltil for lUlttf - Muliaatrf. mitll CABEI HEOUTEKED. Il»t4. M" w—. (luMm. TOTAL. RCVARKIk January 40 U 85 •40 . Fabruary • J7 •7 44 lul ,/ March 34 i December • 38 iB 30 -r, I 35> 7S •73 573 • , February 171 131 103 405 ' '. March • • 101 8a 66 a49 i _ ^ April • - • 81 89 7a 349 May ■ - - 86 80 60 336 JUM . ■ ■ 68 9> 8a 341 July - - - a8 55 5H >35 Auguit 35 61 59 >55 t September - 11 40 18 69 '• • -i October ■ 37 67 58 161 • . -■■ :^' ■' Worember • 47 70 64 181 -. .-'.-; .,> December - 39 «♦ 61 164 i " --■.■■■■-- . . i ■ 9«9 1,005 868 3,803 R 2 f 1 588 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE Return of the Number of Iriih Menilii-antt who havt applied for Kelicl— coMtMarif. IRISH CASES REGISTERED. 1815. Men. Women. Children. TOTAL. UEMARKS. January 18 16 34 58 • i^M**'^ February 9 H •5 38 l!.iiV9 33 70 •vi'Al April »9 31 3^ 73 .1 May - - - >7 30 «9 66 -.,„;. June - I'i 13 23 47 ' -i July - 15 9 16 40 ■'■:- August 6 10 >9 35 ■^vfi',/.- September 13 10 14 36 i ''j'-4r-' v'-^'t'^ - October 13 >4 37 54 , -■. ■ ; November - >7 >7 34 68 ■ '■''" ■ December - 3« ,»7 30 78 188 179 .85 653 \ IRISH CASES NON REGISTERED. 1835. Men. WoBcn. Children. TOTAL. REMARKS. January 75 87 98 360 - , "-I February - 64 63 69' 196 -.;-:-!." Marcli 78 108 79 365 *■*'" * " April 47 55 5« J53 "■ May - 39 43 4a 134 June 4a 56 49 147 ;.■;: July - - - 3C 48 38 133 ■ . ' <■:. August 36 4> 33 99 ;>:;.=,- September 27 Co 64 •5> October - «4 47 5» 133 Novembrr - 4> 63 56 160 ^ ;■■," December - 50 73 69 «9> ■ -* 549 743 698 >.990 SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIORATION ;— 1837. 5H Rttam af the Nwnber of Iriah Mandicantt who have applied for Rtlicf— cmli»«rrf. I . IRISH CASES REGISTERED. i8fl6. Men. WOOKII. Childran. TOTAt. REMARKS. January 11 10 35 46 February - 9 fi 33 44 March 7 9 9 25 April «9 «4 57 110 May . - • 45 «5 54 134 June - 11 »3 34 48 July - 13 13 38 53 Auguit =3 37 38 88 September 33 16 33 70 October >7 >9 39 75 November - as 18 34 74 Deceiiiher - 18 11 33 61 ssG 196 396 817 IRISH CASES NON-REGISTERED. 1836. Men. Women. ChUdren. TOTAL. REMARKS. January 133 >39 130 391 February • 99 90 73 363 March . - 73 69 58 300 April 48 69 70 187 May - - - 84 70 77 331 June - 97 100 106 303 July - 66 69 70 305 August 43 7> 83 196 September 3« S3 62 146 • October - 5C 77 97 330 November - ga J13 133 337 December • 106 >J3 87 306 • 9>7 1,033 »i«)44 3.994 - ■ 550. 4 E3 M« 590 APPliNDlX TO THIUU KEPORT OF THE Return of the Number of Iriih I4eDilicantt wlio have applied for Relief— confiniKi/. IRISH CASES REGISTERED. 1837. Men. Women. ChUdren. TOTAL REMAIIKS. January «9 •9 39 77 February - 4 G 18 38 March >4 10 a 46 A period of five montlii. April 11 11 »5 37 To 3i5t May »3 >3 >7 43 J -. - 61 59 Ml 931 v'"*" IRISH CASES NON-REGISTERED. 1827. Men. Women. Children. TOTAL. REMARKS. I January 37a 397 55 > 1,330 1 February - 413 487 643 ».54« March 304 190 igS 59a A period of five month*. April 96 104 103 303 , - To 3J»t May 103 90 107 499 J ■ . 1.187 1,368 1,601 4.056 GRAND TOTAL. IRISH CASES REGISTERED. IRISH CASES NON-REGISTERED. Men. Wumen. Cbildren. TOTAL. Men. Women. Children. TOTAL. TOTAL. From a6 Mar. to 31 Dec. 1818 - - 613 597 850 2.059 _ _ ^ _ . 2.059 From 1 Jan. to 31 Pec. 1819 - . 913 901 «.«50 9.963 ' . » . . 9.963 1830 • - 1,089 899 >,454 3.449 137 110 Ill 348 3.790 1831 - - 407 333 446 1,186 740 461 617 1,818 3.004 i8sa - - 789 3*4 508 1,561 74> 606 759 3,106 3.667 1833 - - 388 35s 396 936 ».>36 765 735 3,636 3.579 1834 - - 351 261 490 1,103 999 1,005 868 3,803 3.904 1825 - - 188 »79 385 659 549 743 698 J.990 3,643 1826 - - 336 196 395 817 9>7 J.033 1,044 9.994 3,811 To 31st May 1837 - - 61 69 111 931 1,187 I,s68 i,Goi 4.056 4.987 4.863 4,001 6,085 »4>949 6,336 5.991 6.433 18.750 33.699 Total Iriih Applicants in 1836 ^ _ 3.811 in the present Year « . 4,s 87 being an excess of 476 in five montbi beyond the number during the whole of last year. •^1*. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMlGllATION-.-iSa;. . •»> Appendix, N* 8. montlil. •S. ve montht. )TAL. 348 1,818 3,106 8,636 3,803 1,990 «,994 ; year. TOTAL. 2.059 a.963 3.790 3.004 3.667 3.37* 3,904 3,64* 3,811 4.056 4,2«7 8,750 33,699 jSi A RETURN showing the Increase of Iitisii Roman Catholics in London and its vicinity. f- 2 '» !; J THE following Tabular List is the reai-.lt of the Examination of the Registries of Sixteen Romnn Catholic Chapels in London and its iinniediate vicinity. In the Year Number of Baptiinii. Multiply by 30, Cllholic Pnpululion. 0( which One-leuih English, The rest principally Iri.b. 1819 - 2,646 79,380 7-938 71.442 1840 - 2,778 83,340 8,334 75,006 1821 2,87c 86,280 8,028 77.65a 1 - 1822 3,191 95.730 9.573 86,157 1823 - 3.440 103,200 10,320 92,880 ( 1824 3,847 115.410 11,54» 103,869 1 . { 1825 4.131 123,930 i.«,393 > 11,537 r 1826 . 4,437 133.110 13,311 "9,799 ♦ Appendix, N* 9. ACCOUNTS RELATING TO IRELAND. 1. — AN ACCOUNT of the Sums paid in Ireland, in each of tlie last Five Years, for the Linen Boa iiD. Note.— THE Payments made before the passing of the Act for assimilating the Currencies of the two Countries, as well as those made aiter it, arc stated in British Money. YEARS parliamentary GRANT. APPROPRIATED DUTIES. TOTAL. £. t. d. £. a. d. £. *. d. nuary 1823 19.938 9 2i 427 8 10 J 20,365 18 - 1834 19,938 9 «i 37a 13 1 20,311 2 3 J 1825 19,938 9 2i 183 7 5i 20,JS1 16 8 1836 19,938 9 a* 178 1 2i ao,ii6 10 5f 1837 19,938 9 2 . 19,938 9 2 £. 99,69a 6 1 i,o6i 10 7 J 100,753 16 8'i ^en Office, I 13th, 1827./ Linen Office, June 4 E 4 For the Secretory, Edv^ Laughtin, Clerk of the Minutes. l,*1 . M I 59« APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE r i m 1 ^ § s. « .a n s ^1 S M •-» M bO U >* e u en "§"•■2 ^ a .5 en U ° OJ CO ^ O S ? P D i 2 9 >A vi n o .S M o 3l< ■| 3I* I t ^ n II I III I ^ Js JSJSiiJSJJSi! I I ^^ ^ H H H H o 2 o I I I I I I 01 I 8 a § § ^ 8 8 I CO 00 % m I I « I I ^ r* t>» 03 CO ^ 'o <- t t ^ ^ ws di i c« o> « H. I I Oi I I « IN, n "> 9> '^ 9 se <«' uS tp o n — t^ © e« o> ii^ "♦J eSdirS-eSof-wf « •• et *4 ei « ws o 10 ^ t^ I «« 01 (O M 0> o>or»oooQo>n (Sfitonnoo- o o o o eo 00 - 10 to « C9 tA I 1 u MO n 9 n *« s; S " 2. « 2 o 0. X o< ta 1^ S ^ I I« o » SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION :-i8i/. 593 ,U f,! FISHERI£S OF IRELAND. il ACCOUNT of the Sums paid in Ireland, for Fishery Bounties, in each of the last Five Years, end^d 5th of April 1823, 1824, 18125, 1826 and 1837. YEAR YEAR YEAR YEAR YEAR ended i,tl> April eiulcd 6>b April ended 5th April ended stb April ended 51I1 April TOTAL. 18.3. 1814. 1815. I8a6. 1817. £. : d. £. t. d. £. $. d. £. ,. d. £. 1. d. £. 1. d. Iriih. Iriih. biib. r 19,461 It 11 «7,G2i 9 10) 30,64a 11 9 — 2 • Id Britiih Carrcocjr. In Britiih Camiwy. In BrilUh Curreiw;. Britiih Currency. Britiih CurmiCjT. British Currency. B 17,964 11 Ilk 35.469 >5 3i 98,385 9 3i >8,7i9 7 3 13.593 15 9 104,033 19 6} •4« MM »* CO n «M c % ^ % ^ Iriah FUherjr Office, Dublin,\ 19th June 1837. J H. Tawmmd, Sec'. ! .1 , I W' i i j i ii 550- 4F 594 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OP THE Appendix, N' lo. PAPERS ami MAPS delivered in to the Committee, 20th February 18J7. M il h'l \ -/■ EXHIBIT of the System pursued by the United States in the surveying and disposal of the Public Domain; illustrated by several accompanying Maps (marked 1. 2. 3. 4.) of Townships, and a connected (ideal) Survey (marked 5,^ of a Tract of Country ; inclosing Copy of the Law of 1 820, abolishing the old Credit System of Sales, and establishing the System of Prompt Payment. Treasury Department, Gen' Land Office, 14 April 1826. SIR, AGREEABLY to your request, I have the honour herewith lo transmit a packet containing an exhibit of the system pursued by the United States in the surveying and disposal of the public domain, illustrated by several accompanying Uapt of Townthips, and a connected (ideal) survey of a tract of country. Enclosed is a copy of the law of 1820, abolishing the old credit system of sales, and establishing tiie system of prompt payment, and which reduced the minimum price from Si to 4Fi iVv per acre. In addition to the information afforded by the documents trans- iiiitted herevviili, the volume of Land Laws (new edition 1817,) containing, under the head of surveying, all the details respecting the mode of surveying, will, it is believed, furnish all the information you request. I have the honour to be, with high consideration, your obedient servant, Geo. Graham. The Hon"* Daniel Webster. House of Representatives. .- .-r-- ■. •, Of the Mode of Surveying and Selling the public Lands. V THE uniform Mode in which the public Lands are surveyed, conduces in the greatest possible degree to compactness of settlement : This method is Rectangular. The greatest division of land is called a Township, containing the quantity of 23,04c acres. The township is six English or American miles square, and is subdivided into thirty-tix equal divisions or square miles (by lines crossing each other at right angles) called Sections. The section contains 640 acres. The section is subdivided into four parts called Quarter-sections, each of which contains 160 acres; the quarter-section is subdivided into two equal parts, containing eighty acres each, called " Ilalf-quartcr sections," or " Eighths of sections," which last is the smallest regular subdivision. The sectional divisions and the quarter-sectional divisions are both designated by appropriate marks in the field, each of which being peculiar, they can always be distinguished from each other. The hajf-quarter section* are not marked in the field, but are designated on the plot of survey by the Surveyor- General, who designates the distance on one of the ascertained lines, to be cut off, in order to get the quantity of such half-quarter section as exhibited by his plot of survey. Those fractional sections containing less than one hundred and sixt^ acres are not liable to be subdivided, agreeably to law. Those fractional sections containing 160 acres and upwards are liable to £e subdivided in such manner as to preserve the most compact and convenient forms. The subdivisional lines of fractional sections are not run in the field ; but, as in the case of half-quarter sections, the Surveyor-General designates in the plot of survey the distance necessary to be run on one of the ascertained lines, in order to cut off the quantity required. Those lines, if run ut all, must be laid off at the expense of the purchaser. Of Ranges. A Range is any series of contiguous townships laid off from north to south. The Ranges are numbered from the base line north, and from the base line south. They are counted from the meridian east and west. — (See Ideal Sketch N° 1. for the Illustratiou of the Mode of Surveying.) On this sketch will be found as many of the peculiarities of the public surveys as could conveniently be introduced. The surveys colourjd red are supposed to be private claims of individuals, around which the public lands are surveyed. The fractional tracts occasioned by the interruption of those claims are indicated by the red lines; a specimen of the interference of a lake is also given. 1. " ' The SELECT COMMiTTBE ON EMIGRATION :-i8f7. S9S The dixteenth section, coloured blue, is the land appropriated fur schools, being the tv ps^' Exhibit of system of the public lands. Sketches N* 2 and 3 exhibit the niunncr uf surveying on ctriaii) pursued by the rivers, lalcei and bayons, where it is desirable to acquire a certiiin front on sucli water, in l^mt^'l Sutes which case the tract runs back for quantity. Tiie connection of such surveys with lh% '" •"' "eying and regular public surveys is also exhibited, together with specimens of ilie iield notes of the p"P?''"q * Cff the Duties of a Surveyor General. IT is the duty of the Surveyor General to superintend the 'execution of the Public Surveys, which are made by Deputy Surveyon acting under his authority. Whenever the public interest requires that a certain portion of territory be brought into market for the accommodation of individuals, settlers, und others, who may wish to become purchasers, the Executive issues instructions to this officer, through the Commissioners of the General Land Office, at the seat of government, to have such portion of territory surveyed. The Surveyor General makes this requisition publicly known to those individuals who are in the habit of contracting for public surveys; and a contract for the execution of such surveys is entered into between that officer and tlie Deputy Surveyor. The contract is given to the loxeett bidder, provided the Surveyor General be fully satisfied of his capability to fulBI his contract ut the price stipulated, in a bon& fide manner. If satisfaction in this respect be not offered to the Surveyor General, he makes a tender of the contract to the next lowest bidder, and so on. The maximum price established by law for executing the public surveys, is three dollars per mile in the upland and prairie ccuntrics, In the southern section of the United States, when the surveys are more or less frequently interrupted by bayons, lakes and swamps, the maximum is established at /bur 59« APPENDIX TO THIilO RBPORT OF THE Exhibit of (jftUm pur*u«d by tb* Unit«d SutM in surveying and ditpnal of the Public Domain. QS the Duties of a Receiver of Publie Monies. • HE rtccivtf the porchaie money of the lalet, iiiuei receipts to the parcbueri for the tame, arKt ■ecoanl»thererore to the Treasury. The state of bis fiscal concerns is rc|jorted in an aggregate form at the end of every month, to the Secretary uf the Treaiury, agreeable to whose directions his disbursements are made ; this return enables the Secretary to regulate his drafts on the office. He also transmit*, to the General Land Oflive, a montiily return of the payments made to binvby purchasers, which corresponds with the monthlv return made by^the Register uf the Land Orace. He alto furnishes an account at the end of every ouarter uf the calender year, which is a transcript from the general accounta in his ledger, unaer the head of " Sale* of Publie Land*,* Ctuk, " Commiuion, Incidmlal Erpttiu$, and Untied Statti Jceouui," as exhibited in the forms herewith. These quarterly transcripts are audited at the General Land Office, and a report on the examination is made to the first Comptroller, who filially settles them. From these accounts, the correctness or incorrectness of the Receiver's books is aJwayi ascertained. This officer receives an annual compensation of ^500, and MM per cent commission on all the monies accounted for. It will be perceived that the Register and Receiver act as a eheck upon each other. The duplicate receipts for payments in the hamis of the purchasers, is a further check on them both ; for an the purchaser cannot receive a patent lor his land until the evidence of pay. ment appears on the books of the General Land Office, no attempt at collusion could fail to be detected. Of the Duties of the Commissioner of the General Land Office. THE Duties of this officer will be fonnd designated in the copy of an Act of the Congress passed on the sjth day of April i8i<, intituled, " An Act for the establishment of a Gencrai Land Office in the DepartiBcnt of the Treasury." They may be classed as follows, via. 1 be Gencrai Land Office being a branch of the Treasury Department, is, as sach, con- sequently under the general supervision of the Secretary of the department. The Com- missioner has the superintendence of every officer's duties connected with the land depart- nent. The Surveyors General acting; under his instructions in surveyinK the land, and the Registers and Receivers in the sate thereof. In this office, maps of nil the surveys of land in each land district, are prepared from the returns of surveys made by the Surveyor General. All the lands in each land distriet, are designated in books in regular numerical order of sections, townships and ranges. From the monthly returns made by the Register and Receiver of each land district, the tracts sold from time to time are also designated in these books, the object of which is to check the sale*. As patents are from time to time issued, every particular is entered in its appropriate column in such books. He audits and settles the quarterly accounts of the Receivers of public money. These accounts are com- pared and rigidly scrutiniiKd with the receipts for payments made by individuals, which (as before stated) bad previously accompanied the monthly returnt ot the Regiiter of the Land Office, and with the warrants of the Treasury founded on the vouchers for disburse- ments, which had previously accompanied the monthly account which the Receiver had rendered to the Secretary of the Treasury. The quarterly account is tbea snbmitted to the first Comptroller of the Treasury for final revision, accompnied by the CommisMooers report of the result of his examination, together with a particular statement of the errors found in the account. The Receiver is also immediately apprised of the errors, in order that he may corresporMi with the Comptroller in relation to them. The charges suspended by the Commissioner may afterwards be admitted by the Comptroller, on the prouuction or satisfactory evidence. All patents for lands sold or concede by the government, emanate from this oflice, under the seal thereof, signed by the President of the United States, and countersigned by the Commissioner. The records of all such patents are preserved in this office. Requisitions of the Sorveyor General for the fiinds necessary to dcfiny the cxpetise of the ptiblic surveys, me made through the medium i>f the Commissioner. The quarterly accounts of the Surveyor General are first tran< nitted to the Commissioner, who certifies that the surveys charged for are duly executed, prior to the adjustment of such accounts by the first Auditor of the Treasury, subsequent to which, the Surveyor Genera) is credited in the books of the Treasury for the disburtemeots aecovated for. -■■;■■;- 8ELBCT COMMITTEB ON EMIGRATION :— 1817. 697 A. •• REGISTER'S OFFICK, FORM of APPLICATIONS for the purchaie of Public Luidi. Davidionville, July 31, i8to. I, Charln Martin, of Pittiburg, do hereby apply for rebate of section N*. 13, townihip N* 4, of range N* 3, containing 640 acres, acco. ,ig to the returns cf (he Surveyor General ; for which I have agreed with the Register to give at the rate of 2S •08 48, Iz o a. 00 Jl - 3 - » o ft-.- O -"Z e a z.i LkndOffictst Oavidionrillt, July 1, iBtO. NT IT it htrcby rtrtified, That, in pursuance of law, Jolin Jarksnn, of Carliile, oil tfaii day purrhaaed of the llegiater of the Land Office at Oavidionville, the Int or east half of the N. E. quarter of section N* o, township N* 4, of range N* 3, containing 80 acres, at the rate of two dollars per acre, amount- ing to ^ 160, for which half quaiier section, [or section, half section, ur quarter section, a< Mr COM may if], the said John Jackson having made payment in full as required by law ; Now, therefore, be it known. That on presentation of this certificate to the Coiiimiasioner of the General Land OfTice, th« said John Jackson shall b« entitled to receive a patent for the lot or half quarter section, [section, &c a* the can may be\ abovt described. ' ■■ ■ '. " (signed) A. ■. i * P.fgister of the Lead Office. ■■f '■ . .■ . <■ 1890 July iiELECT COMMITTI i*. ON K*' OR.VflON s-iBi; 111. REGISTER of CKKTIFICATES urantetl, in purMmn. I.«», i<. I'' 'u»en ol i.tiu Lands by A. ti. Regi!«tcr of the Lutitl Olhcc at Ddvidijottvillc. I iSso: July itt TRACT I>UHCilA8ED. Nam* of Piircliairr. John Jarksnii I'Uct uf tll'lilll III*. CiirlitU ■{ I it EJofN.K,. q' of Sectiun a ^ ,..,M„;. (juanlli}. T 80 p.»i« I'" Airr. IMlhi. Dull-. CVtiU. Aram > I of I'tinhue Moii'y ptkl. 1). •!•. l>nn. llio .1 a I 4 J' 4 APPRNOIX TO THIRD KKPnRT OF TME IV. FORM OF JOURNAL. Und t>Ar« M DtvidMiivilU, July I, i8«o. I * i 1 Culi. D' To 8tlM of Public UiMh: For thii omount received by the Heceiver of Pudllo Moniet for the Ihllowing Lands, Mild thit d>y at public luetion, to the fullowing-iienied penoni i - - To John Jacluon, of Cerliile, eut balf of the N. E. . ...^.-^ quarter of aeeUon N* a, townihip N* 4, of ran)^ N*3, ooBtainini 80 acrei, at the rate ofJt« |/er acre ^160 To Philip Jonaa, of Philadelphia, weit half of the N. K. quarter of aection N* 3, townihip N* 4, nf range N* 3, containing 80 acrei, at the rate of jji 1 iV# P*' ocrt - - -100 . ' To ditto - • • eoet half of the N. E. quarter of aection N* 4> towntbip N* 5, of range N* a, containing 80 aerae, at the rate of ;f 1 ^^g per acre IBO I. i . 380 - ! i CHh. D' To Salee of Public Unda: ' \ ;■ 1 ' ■ ; For thia amount received by the Receiver of Public Moniea for ecction N* is, townihip N* 4, of range N* 3, aold to Charlea Martin, of Pltuburg, containing 640 ocref, at the nteof J'l.^, peracre 800 • 1 Sept. 4, i8«o. i j ■♦ « Caab. D' To Salea of Public Landa : For thia amount received by tbe Receiver of Public Moniea for wett half of the N. W. quarter of lection N* «o, town- ahip N* 6, of range N* 1, told to Thomai Jenkini, at Bedford, containing 80 acres, at the rate of Jg 1 ^, per I . ! '■■♦ - wr« ......... Totel in the quarter ending 30 Sept. i8ao - . 100 - ,f i.aSo - i T Salea of Public Landa, D' To the United Statet : ;. i ' - " • ' For this amount received by tbe Receiver of Public Monies, for Lands sold in tbe quarter ending on this day • i,a8o ■A- 4 The United States, D' To Cash: '- For amount received by the Receiver uf Public Monies, for Lands sold during this quarter 1,280 h 8BLBCT COMMITTBB ON EMIGRATION :-.|li7. flki 'ii- 550. 4G ■> If If. ■?! «» APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE > ■ s i M I I I I <2 S M s S w4 p4 9* m ** I ii> e u) •(> I I I I ■»8ui}{ •d|i|tUMOX JO jaqmnjj O » O P o 00 00 00 ^ 00 CO C3 01 W iH ■uojtmj JO uoii33S 'jb-jjiiq 'nopug 'lb 'uoiiug j|«q ' ■«!» " 8J«.W Z'S Z-2 z-S 2 sil «3§ -Sg "oS « -SS U ^ u ^ f ,nuo»g JO J»]mnj{ a 8 a a, 3 J i ii § 5 S I t »*» fe S> '^ I ^ a -3 I s ^ .s -s o g I I o a s I vs m SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION:-! 837. 60$ S 4 G a ■I A. M V: I 4 6o4 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE FORM of a BOOK to be kept, in which the Returns of the Surveyor General are . ' v .. to be numerically entered, as follows, viz. r . "S d •s . QnuUt;. n If p To whom Mid. PIm« of BoiiltiM*. WbeBioM. Acru. Hdtlu. I I t 640 ^ Whole, • . ; Note.— After inserting a Section, eight lines an to be left blank, in which the Sales, m made, are to be enteied. ■ 1 1 Klfi '-■ ..l-' ■/K- SELBCT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION:— 1837. 605 A. FORM OF JOURNAL. Reccive''a Office «t Davidionville, Jul; 1, 1630. RECEIVER'S OFFICE. Cull. D' Sales of I'nbllc lands : For this amount per receipts granted to the following named persons, being in full for the following lands pur- chased by them respectively, at Public Sales, on this day; viz. NM. N't. N'3. To John Jackson of Carlisle, for East half of the N. E. quarter of section N" 3, township N* 4, of range N* 3, containing 80 acres at the rate of Jf 8 per acre - - - Jfi6o To rhilip Jones of Philadelphia, for West half of the N. E. quarter of section N* 3, township N* 4, of range N° 3, containing Boacresat the rateof ,f l-^'vP*=f "'^ .ftoo To ditto, for East half of the N. E. quarter of section N''4, township N* 5, of range N* 3, containing 80 acres, at the rate of^i - 5"»o 3S0 ■3»st Cub. D' To Sales of Public Lands : For eight hundred dollars per receipt N* 4, granted to Charles Martin of Pittsburg, being in full for section N» is, township N' 4, of range N* 3, purchased by him, containing 640 acres, at the rate of ^ i -^ per acre . . - . - 80a Cash. D' Sept. 4, 1830. To Sales of Public Lands : For eight hundred dollars per receipt N* 5, granted to Thomas Jenkins of Bedford, being for West half of the N. W. quarter of section N* 30, township N*6, of range N* 1, purchased by him, containing 80 acres, at the rate of ^ i -^'e P^r oc^ •.5th- Incidentd Expenses. D' , To Cash : For amount paid A. B. fur blank books andl stationery, as per voucher N* 1 • For amount paid C. D. for 500 quills as' voucher N* 3. .... For amount paid E. F. for advertising salesl of Public Lands as per voucher N* 3. ) 01 40 ■3. J 30th 100 45 »«5 Incidental Expenses. D' To Cash : For amount of my salary for the quarter "1 ending on this day . . - . J For amount of the Register's salary fori the quarter ending on this day, paid to^ 135 him as per his receipt N* 6. • -J The United Sutes. D' To Cash : For the sum of six hundred dollars depositedl in the Bank of to the credit I ^600 of the Treasurer of the United states -J For this sum paid treasurer's draft N* 1 in favour of O. L dated day of / too 950 I III 700 i^ 550 4 G 3 (■on/Miw//.) I i- ] K i 'I 606 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE Form of Journal — continued. fl To incidental Expcniei : t 3 For amount of expenditures under that head duringl this quarter as explained in that account - -J To Commiition account: For this amount as explained in that account Commission account. D' (To Cash:) For this sum pdd to the Re|i;ister as per his> receipt N* 7, being his commission uf one per cent on Jf i,28o,* the amount \. »■^^f^„ expressed in the receipts filed and en> / tercd by him for Public Lands sold in this quarter .... -J «95 gs T For my commission at one per cent onl Jfi.o'VA'tf* accounted for and paid^ • jo 18 over this quarter ... .J ts 98 * Sre note below, eiplaluing the mjiiuier in which these auiu ue to be aKf'Tlaiiicd. Sales of Tublic Lands. D' To the United States : For one thousand two hundred and eighty dollars, being the amount received this quarter, for Public Lands sold, in the same as per account rendered to the Treasury ....... i,a8o I; - Cash (new account :) D' y To Cash (old account ) 4 For this sum, being the balance of Cash in my hands on this day, subject to Treasury drafts - S69 09 The United States (old account) D' To the United States (new account:) For this sum being the balance of Cash io my hands on this (}ay ..... 36a OS Nottt—To ascertain the sum on which the Keceiver'i commiition is to be calculated, and the amount of oommiHion, th* following priociplee are to govern; viz. 1. Amount paid over into Benk to thooredit of the Treasurer • - ,f6oo D* Treasurer's draft in favour o(0. L. - D* ofinddentalexpenseSitncludingReceiver'eandRegister'al salaries .---....j D° paid Register's commission ..... Add commission w found by' the rule below stated Produu<;s amount on whieh commiition is to be charged i$i,oi1 Multiply by rate of commission ... 100 — 89S - It 80 1,007 80 10 18 *i.oi7 98 >P' otnt Rate of Conimisiion : If 99 : 1. 1,007 80 I og-v 1,007 80 fio. 17 ff Answer. ■ » -^99 i 178 99 1,017 98 Register's Commission Am< of Lands ent' & sold $ i,s8o Comm" at 1 p'cent 1 lit. 80 1.0«) 79«> 693 97 89 «■ SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION:— 1827. Goj pq o Q o I o (14 * . a rf 'i»> ^"i-r^ufc* i^i W wi i^ 'l' ^ a % i i 3 I is 1 c 8 a 3 ■a < •f»n»3 •uiiioa <§ o o 00 o to ^ I i - >5 "I -5 I I '^ 2 "^ I I 4G 4 « I. p h a> 3 6o8 APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE -Sales of 1 t ■ > iBio i8ao Sept. 30 3 1 To the United Statee 1 J } 4 i,t8o July 1 . 3» - Sept 4 - - By Cuh, M foUowt . Ditto ... 1 1 [ s , - i In the extract* from thii amoant which i« to be rendered quarterly to the Cotamiiiiiontr D'- -Incidental i8ao Sept. 6 30 Topaih,a(folIo«» - To Caib, as followt ' ■ 1 ■, Numbw of Renlpt J.B. . - Blank Books and Stationery .... I CD. . - Quills 1 > E.F. - - Advertising Public Sales .... 1 3 A.B. Register - For bis Salary for the quarter endicg this day H 6 For amount of my own Salary for the quarter! ■ • • 550. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION :-i8«7. *»9 Public Lands. NAl^ OF rURCHASER. ! John JtckMn - Philip Jonw Ditto - [ Charles Martin • Tboma* Janliini PUHCIIA8ED. X a i E. f of N. E. quarter') of tectioii 9 - -J W. J of N.E. quarter! of section 3 - -J E. i of N. E. quarter"! of section 4 • •/ Section i« W.iofN.W.quarter't uf aeetion so -J •I" ; 4 5 4 6 QUANTITY. AcKi. Hdlhi. 80 80 80 640 80 RATE Per Acit. Dolli. ceati »5 60 *5 as of thO' General Land OfBce a Recapitulation ia to be added in the following manner : RECAPITULATION. 800 aerei a' i-finp' acre - - j' 10.60 80 d» - i^ . - - I.SO 80 d* • • .... 1.6a 960 11.80 160 100 ISO 380 800 100 ter ending this day ' alary for the quarter^ 1 , ♦ c Namber of Iklltn. Ceati. 1 Beeoipt. i8so i 1 40 - Sept. 30 - s By tiu United Sutes /* 395 - S S - . / / 3 3 - * ■ / 6 "6 - ■.-\l ■ ■ / • •• « >«5 - / 395 - 550. 4H 1.1 k fl'll APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OP THE Ri ! Mi 1 11 1 I 'in •a a § E ' & 3 S , 1 •o O -a 5 • o. g o A 00 :^' *9 t» a o. ^^ a «9. m a •r^ S « !■?• •2 S n Si ^ •|s. C "O { '■ , :tjJ.;yV^T.j::i;> *^f -v' 8 f2 SBLBCT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION:— 1837. «t I r ji * % s s s s, s •3 11 1.1 U CO I 1 2 a M a 4 fT2 ■S" a I » > I- i i 2 I 'S II ta I f 5 f '1i 6i« APPENDIX TO THIRD REPORT OF THE f ORM of RECEIPTS to be granted by the Receivers to Purchasers of Public I^ndn. c. N*i. ' ' Iteccivcr'* OfBc* at Davidionvill*, ■luljr I, 1830. RMcivcd from John J>ckion, of Oarliile, llit Sum uf One hundred and lixty dullwR, being in full for EUat half of the N. E. quarter of lectinn N* a,town(bip N* 4, of range N*3, containing 80 acrei, at the rate of $ 1 -fi^ per Acre. (aigned) A. B. Reeeiver. M* I & 3 to be of a aimilar form. V'4. Rfceiver'i Office at DavidaenviUt, I ' '-' . July 31, iSao. Received from Charle* Martin, of Pittsburg, the Sum of Eight hundred dollars, being in full for section N* 13, township N* 4, of range N* 3, containing 640 acres, at the rataof ,f Sou. (signed) J. B- Receiver. \» } 3 4 a u 3 g Pi IS o OS SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIORATION -1817. «'l '- i( u i 7 i M 8 n I 1 ! ■■OJPWJ « £88 I I 2 8 I I I w do w O CO • CO 8 ft) I •I I I ■ -!; •* -» ' td tJ w ? "3 -a 8 HK "7 •• •a bi 8: cJ (S I S U 04 I 1 S J o OB •* •I" C3 I I s 2: I I- l^f i W'. !f ii^ I ■pi' Ml 550. 4H3 i^j «I4 APPBNDIX TO THIRD KEPORT OP THE B. FORM of a MONTHLY RETURN to be made to the; Secretary of the Treasury. D' TIn United StatM ia Account with A. B. Rwtor af P. M. it Dtvidionvilla. C I 1810: I'o Cuh paid into th«' - - — By amount ra- ctivod from in- viduab in the pretent month to the credit of the 'I'reMurer of the United SutM • • — Cuh, Dkid Trtuurer't') draft N* In^ - - •^ Cuh, paid negiiter't Sala^ and hit com- miuion for the auartar endinf tfait Jay - - -J - - - Amount of my ownl wlary and commia- \ lion - - -J - - — Incidental axpantat - - - Balance on hand, car-1 ried to the credit of I the U. S. in the next 1 monthly retHm -J - — / \ 1 fteceiver'i Office, at Davidaunville, Sept 30, i8bo. (•igned) A.B. Receiver t * < tfote—Tbit is supposed to be the first return made. In all subsequent reuims, the balane* remaining on hand in the one immediately preceding (if any) should be the firnt item of credit, thus : " By amount remaining on hand per last return." 8BLECT COMMITTEE ON CMIQRATlON-iSt;. «•» Cvpy of the ACT of i8so, aboliKhinff the Credit SyRtem nf telling Public Land* •nU esttblishing timt uf Prompt Payment. Tliii Act, in nddiiion in the Act* cuntiiincd in the volume of Land Lawi, will ruriiiih, it ii boJicved, all tliv iiiluriuulion rcquolcd. [Tliif ought to have been encloied in the packet, but it woi ciiiircly ovuiuolii'd until after the imcket hod bvtii icaled.] J. M. Uoort. AN ACT Making further provision for the Sale uf the Public Land*. H- Sect. i. HE it Enacted, by the Senate and Honiic ot' Ili-prcHpntativoi of the Unitrd Statei of America in Congrem atiteinbjcd, That from und nftcr ilie firHt duy of July next, all the Public Land» of the United Sintei, the aale of which i* or may be authorized by law, •hall, when oflered at public lale to the highcit bidder, be offered in half-ijuarter KciioQt( and when oflered at private sole, may be purchuaed at the option of the purcbaier, either in entire iectiont, halfiections, quarter teclioni, or half-quarter leclioni; and in every caie of the diviiion of a quarter-section, the line for the diviiion ihercof thali run north and louth, und the corneri and content! of half-auarler sectioni, which may thereafter be lold, ihall be atccriainetl in the manner and on the principle! directed and prescribed by the second section of an Act, intituled, "An Act concerning the mode of surveying the Public Lands of the United States," passed on the eleventh day ol February eighteen hundred and five; and fractional sections, containing one hundred and sixty acres, or upwards, shall in like manner, as nearly as practicable, be subdivided into half-quarter sections, under such rules and regulations us may be prescribed by the Secretary of the Treasury ; but fractional sections, containing less than one hundred and sixty acres', ilmll not be divided, but shall be •old entire : IVovided that this section shall not be construed to alter any special provision made by law for the sale of land in town lots. Sect. 9. And be it further Enacted, That credit shall not be allowed for the purchase money on the sole of any of the public lands which shall be sold after the first duy of July next, but every purchaser of land sold at public sale thereafter shall, on the day of purchase, make complete payment therefor; and the purchaser at private snie shall produce to the Register of tin' LiifM' Office, a receipt from the Treasurer of the United States, or from the Rern ser of puUic monies of the district, for the amount of the purchase money on any tract, before he aiiall enter the same ut the Land Ofiicc ; and if any person, being the higliest bidder at public sale for a tract of land, shall fail to make payment therefor, on the day on W'kit'h the same was purchased, the tract tihall be again oflfered nt public sule, on the next dav of sale, and such person siiall not be capable of becoming the purchaser of that «r any iMher tract offered ot such public sales. Skct. 3. And be it furtlier Enacted, Thot from and after the firit day of July next, the price at which the public landii »hall be offered for sale, shall be one dollar and twenty- five cents an acre; and at every public sale the highest bidder, who shall make payment as aforeaaid, shall be the purchaser ; but no lands shall be sold either at public or private sale, for a less price than one dollar and tweiiiy-tive cents an acre; and all ilie public lands which shall have been offered at public sale bedu' ibe first day of July next, and which shall then remain unsold, as well as the lands th 1 sliall tlurenfter be offered at public sale, according to law, and remain unsold at the close of such public sale, shall be subject to be sold at private sale, by entry at the Land OHice, at one dollar and twenty-five cents an acre, to be paid at the time of making such entry as aforesaid, with the exception, however, of the lands which may have reverted to the United States for fuilure in payment, and of ih« heretofore reserved sections, for the future disposal of Congress, in the States of Ohio and Indiana, which shall be offered at miblic sule as hereinafter directed. Sect. 4. And be it further Enacted, That no lands which have reverted or which shall hereafter revert, and become forfeited to the United States for failure in any manner to make payment, shall, after the first day of July next, be subject to entry at mivate sale, nor iitiii' the same shall have been first oHcred to the hiuhcbt bidder at public sale ; and nil such Inn ' . which shall have reverted before the said first day of July next, and which shuli tiien belong 4 H 4 to I IH i FRONT of TRACTS fronting on RED and MISSISSIPPI RIVERS. li.'^l Frmt betwten. Course. Diit' in Links Bearing Trees. Course. Dut' ill Links. Ileuring Trees. 1 and s N. 20° W. 5 E.Wood S. 7" E. 91 Hickory 9-3 S. 80° E. 8 Locust N. 15« W. 20 Locust 3-4 S. 86» E. 4 Lofuat 4-5 S. 70» E. 15 Elbow Wood N. 80" E. 25 Locust 5 - 6 S. 11° K. 91 Hickory North 30 E. Wood 6 - 7 , North 11 Willow S. 3° ^V. 14 E.Wood 7 - 8 Corner on an E. Wood 8-9 S. 28° E. It Hickory J. 6' W. 30 Hickory 9 - lo N. 45* E. 90 Locust N. 45" W. 8 Hickory 10 - u S. 9° E. 40 Hickory N. 20" W. 16 Hickory 11 - 19 S. 46' VV. 90 Hickory N. 7" E. 50 E. Wood 19 - 13 South 10 Hickory S. 50° E. 3 Hickory 13 - U S. 20° W. 9 Hickory S. 30° E. 60 Locust »4 - »5 S. ii°E. 15 Locust S. 60° W. 10 Hickory 15 - »6 N. 75* E. 11 Hickory i6 - 17 Corner on a Hickory 17 - i8 S. 7"' E. 4 Hickory N. 84° W. 5 Locust i8 - 19 N. 30* E. 22 Locust S. 59« E. 4 Ash 19 - 90 N.45'E. 50 Locust 91 - 99 N. i.V W. 353 Ash A\ile. This inc is made 3.53 chs. longer. 99 - 23 N. 63° E. 88 Oak S. 67" E. 120 Ash 93 - -4 Coiner 1)11 a Collon Woiiil (rotiliniii 7 - l8 N. 10" v.. 12 Locust N.71-W. , l8 - »9 N. 29" W. 24 Elbow Wood N. 23" E. 1 19 - 30 - 24 Corner on nn Elbnw Wood 81 N.lS'W. 3.50 Elbow Wood ,' A'«/<-.— This l^ longer. ine is 12 - 23 S. 4" E. 4 Elbow Wood N. 64° E. 1 83 - 24 N. 60" E. 29 Cypress «4 - 25 N. 73" E. 16 Ash S. 60° E. 2 «5 - 26 N. 70* E. 3 Locust East 1 86 - 27 N. 10" E. 23 Hackl)erry N. 83" E. 1 27 - 28 Nortli 5 E. Wood 5. 4()« E. 1 88 - 29 Corner Note : on an E. Wood Back corners to Sectionii estnblisbed on a Willow. 29. 30, 31, 32, 33 36 - 37 S. 12* E. 9 Overcup Oak S. 71° E. 1 3? - 38 Corner on an Elbow Wood 38 - 39 S. i8' E. 42 E. Wood S. 74° E. 1 39 - 40 S. 6° E. 18 Willow S. 88° E. 40 - 4> S. 36' E. 9 Cypress S. 78° E. 1 4t - 42 S. 48" E. >4 Willow S. 87» E. g 42 - 43 S. 50" E. 43 Elbow Wooti S. 84" E. i; 43 - 44 S. 30° E. 4 E. Wood N. .56" E. 1- 44 - 45 N. 18° E. 12 E. Wood S. 60° E. 45 - 46 N. 44* E. »4 Willow S. 73" E. 3t 46 - 47 Corner on an EllKiwWood 47 - 48 N. 8o» E. 4 E. Wood S. 44° E. i Jn 4 'yv ■u I tJ.M> ■ J,J(> ( u/,,^/ /y jj^ llorSK w COMAIOA.S: /,' /y JA, Locust N.7«"W. 18 Locust Elbow Wood N. 23" E. 11 Iron Wood Elbow Wood ine is made 1 Elbow Wood j A'n/c— This obe3.50cbs. l^ longer. Elbow Wood N. 64° E. 18 E.Wood Cypress Ash S. 60° E. 24 Cypress Locust East 18 Elbow Wooci Hackl)crry N. 83" E. 14 E. Wood E. Wood 5. 4()« E. 1} Asb E. Wood ners to Sections 29, 30, 31, 3a, 33, 34, 35 and 'tC, 1 a Willow. Overcup Oak S. 71° E. >3 Elbow WoiKl Elbow Wood E. Wood S. 74° E. 13 E. Wood Willow S. 88° E. 3 E. Wood Cypress S. 78° E. iS E. Wood Willow S. 87» E. S7 Willow Elbow Wood S. 84" E. *3 WiUww E. Wood N. .56" E. 12 Cypress E. Wood S. 60° E. 7 Willow Willow S. 73" E. 36 Willow EllKiwWood E. Wood S. 44° E. 3 E. Woo<( 4 I 7 I 6:j./.,^r' Jft ,;^,;,f„ 9 643. -iS !' :v (i.t:,.'>.i 10 I 64;i,oo „ r> (U; ■>; 21 I 642 .■,(> ! ?.'{ o-l-l f',. Ti i Mkt.7:> U (it;,.,.;,, MBS .1/ /lit »,i,L .„„/ „^,„r., iMi.Uimn,' i.i« :,„ ^. mv »tmm at Mr I'nfuuil Ihtiwy^ m ilW Mt, llorsK i» COMMONS. /,' /v- J/in}/^/. ZV'*.'/,t,H' /,V^l SJO lAaemd, , JaO 5 64i,25 17 644. 7S 29 64S.OO 6 64-i.S.'f Ifi 64rt. ?i 30 644. 75 7 644. oo 19 645.00 31 643. Zi 8 &tH. r,o W 644. 7a :i2 644. CO .9 643. 2r, 21 645. 25 33 644: 75 lo 64H,f>o ■i2 645.25 34 645. 25 21 64.1. .)(? 23 644. oo :is 645. 5o 12 66o.7r> 24 66k m> 36 661. 25 #*■-: liikr Hanriwri A: >',irt.r. /Mnterr 5'»i>- ■ ('vprvM, Laki. 1 1 ^ N. «()' K. 1 31 ! Ilacklxrry S. tio' L. Watvr ouk, nuUhnl un Itiur aidrt for f >fc. a llackUrr/ ■ '^ N. 8* NV. 1 87 Cultonwood ■ llurrirxiic. ■ Set « podl iimrkril " ». 67* W. 87 ■ Gum N. a;,' E. 14 Syttfflort 4 I / if 1^ lU . U I - •» »7 - l8 iK - 19 •9 - an «a - m UiiL UtA^AIt I ■ Ammt i|iulilv. Siinic i|uilil.V' Finl qii»l V |j«nd, large tiii.ljir, Ae. I'lrM halfrnn* riilgr'', rrtiiluc liigb rich miflLaBd. 12 leg. ao 37 16S. an 62 164 . so J3 167. 4o 3S m . j; 14 11 • . ao 3.9 I6i. flO 1 16 im. 40 40 m. 3o 16 lea ao 41 m.M 1 IT IM . ao 41 m.ao 1 1 IS 107 . sw 4-i 169 . SO 1 19 ISO . oO 41 m. SI W 164 7J \46 163. so 1 1 21 163 . as 46 let. 67 22 w . lo 47 1J3 3)1 1 1 1 ?3 la* . 78 43 la4.62 24 171 64 49 161). m 26 171 . t? 1 50 m . 7i /y i^' MM 17 - IM |8 - KJ KJ - tu iO - dl w. N. t ». iS' v.. N. !,»• K. 34 17 A4 No lirannpi Unt. Cium St. (iuni lUcklicrry J. u . a., N.7i'F.. N. 40' W. liuill Gil III Matitti l.u,lU, Dc|iuly Surfrvui. f ( ^''^jm^' sso Ou^t^J^ ^ HOVSZoF COMMONS. /o /^!^^n/e4/.2^Juw/m. K mt . m J/ m.u \ »y m.so 13 W7 . -M M m. j; 1 J4 IM. 00 39 m.oo 16 im. 4o 40 MS.30 16 M4. an 41 Ml. M IT HI4 . SO 43 m.ao a 167 . to 43 Its. so 19 lao . so 44 Jf*. S9 90 164 . U 4S M3,S0 H lea . at 46 MT. 6f S9 m. to 47 la.m 1 ?3 IS* . 7a 4S iM.et ■M 171 . 64 49 m.n 2S m . »T SO la . 7x ^/f '//Ifry^ff, /ft/w/ff// /(9'J/i, /// OA ^ nciMrriA &fIledMvermi/ieSluf€ofIouisia?ia. w, / /^ / r t/.2^JMrw/S27. ^A ! / w ^ Mw I iff iMl^f ^^< t'Um^/jf . M. M,H.sK m f»Mwu.fx/>A' ^,»/,y/^ /,. »m r »'» •*• 0.0 j^ljL §fr % \ /V/ M Iff wn* «*/ 4Mnv itiimti ,f^ t> ^'i./tm''/^ . Mr Htnyx ,^ rowwfMx A./r ^i,Htr^f< A 'HHr A»>y •- \ ^ 1 t ^ /< fap. r.r////f/y///// fJif o/i/ero/'t/fe Survey t^'f /if /W/j//rI/^/r/.ry'Me fZ/i/Ze^/ S/a/es.ffA^ff//// Jm By JVi. r/t/s SArtt^i f\/f/f///. nifje/v for tlluAt/a/mt^ t/w fjenera/ .sysfrni . JSO ('■/(/,'/< i/iyAf HOUSE or rouM«ws. /i> /• M'27. 1 ^ yenera/ .systrni . V/Zan, M'27. f»». 4' I 6st Al'PENDIX TO THIRD UEPOllT OF THE [Plate 1. Fracliomil Tmonshiji, N' 2. Range, N' 8. East Land District, North oj Red River, Louisiana — continued. DKSCKIPTION of Die QUARTER SECTION CORNERS on the Interior of tlio TOWNSHIP. -Meridians.- On Line buwein Seelimt. Cuurw. Dl.f iu Uiikt. IJenring Trui's. Course. Diit' in Liiilis. Bearing Treci. 68 nml 69 1 S. 63" 26' E. 11 Ixicuiit 70 - 7» N. 5- 56' K. 35 E. Wood S.25''33'W. '9 Locust 74 - 75 N.46"4i'li. 16 Cypress N. 4' 23 K. 36 E. Wood 67 - 68 S. 4'' 46' li. 91 Locust N. 6' 4C' E. 26 Locust 71 - 78 N.8i°23' E. 21 Cypress S.52»44'W. 3 Locust 73 - 74 S. l°48' li. 39 Locust S. 8l» W. 6 E. Wood - Parallels 66 and 67 67 - 72 7a - 73 65 - 68 68 - 7» 71 - 74 70 - 75 N. 8" E. 6 Locust S. ai-E. 29 Elbow Wood S. 25" 30' W. 40 Cypress w. ii".^ 1;. 26 Elbow Woo«l N.i7°5.5'W. 18 Persinion S. 6" 49' W. 21 I'.. Wood N.86°02'W. 4i E. Wood N.42«27'W. 3 Locust N.82"o6'E. af E. Wood S. 6° 50' E. 13-77 E. Wood N. 1° W. 3 Cypress FRONT of TR.VCT8 Ironliiig 011 BED and MISSISSIPPI RIVERS. Front on Line betwten. CourH.*. I and 3 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - II - 19 - 13 - »4 - 15 - 16 - 17 - 18 - 19 - 91 - 22 - 93 - a 3 T 5 6 7 8 9 10 II 19 13 14 >5 16 »7 18 «9 90 29 23 24 N. •JO" W. S. 80° E. S. 86° E. S. 70* E. S. 11° E. North Corner S. 98« E. N. 45* E. S. 9° E. S. 46° W. South S. 20° W. S. ii-E. N. 75* K. Corner S. T E. N. 30* E. ^.45* E. N. i.V'W. N. 63° E. rmner Dill' in Linl(». 5 8 4 15 91 II on an 11 90 40 30 10 15 11 on a 4 22 50 3-53 88 ■III a Rearing Trees. Course E.Wood Locust IxKUSt Elbow Wood Hickoiy Willow E. Wood Hickory Locust Hickory Hickory Hickory Hickory Locust Hickory Hickory Hickory Locust Locust Ash Oak CoUon Wooil S. 7» E. N. 15* W. N. So' E. North S. 3° ^V. .i. 6' W. N. 45" W. N. 20" W. N. 7* E. S. 50° E, S. 30° E. S. 60° W. N. 84° W. S. 59° E. Disf ill Liuki. 91 90 25 30 »4 30 8 16 50 3 60 10 lleuriiig Trees. Hickory Locust Locust E. Wood E. Wood Hickory Hickory Hickory E. Wood Hickory Locust Hickory Locust Ash Nule. This line is made 3.53 chs. longer. S. 67" E. ISO Ash (ronliniii'O Plate a.] SELECT COMMITTRE ON EMIGRATION:- Fractional Toxvnship, N° 2 «:^»x::i-r^"'"---^ KUOXT„rTHACXS.o„..,„„HKn„. M.SS.S.H ....Zl~ Frmi mUnt between. Course. Di,i' in Linki. Bra rill); Trers. I i Ash C'ourw. N.irE. i)i«' in Lijikv liiiariiij Trees. 34 - as South «3 85 - 96 Corner on a Ilacliberry 53 Box Elder a6 - a? 97 - aS ■28 - ag N. 1 8" \V. East Corner 11 S on a Hackbcrry ! Uox |.:idcr Ilacklicrry S. 45" W. N. 10" W :io Hackbcrry Box r.lder 99 - 30 N. 6- W. G Ash S. C" i;. 3" - 3« 3' - 39 S. G8° W. Corner 24 on :i Cotton A\'(io() Cotton \Vooii S. 27" \v. 10 -7 Willow Hackborry 39 - 33 Corner on a Willow 33 - 34 34 - 35 35 - 36 North N. 7" W. Knst 6 a Willow Willow Cotton Wood S. 7" W. S. 60" W. r, t'ollon W(i(,d Willuw 36 - 37 Corner un a Cotton Wood 37 - 38 N. 14" W. •3 Willow 38 - 39 Corner on a Cotton Wor.d 39 - 40 N. 45" W. 2 Willow 40 - 41 41 - 4a s. r,' w. Corner 10 on a Willow Willow N. 40" \V. 10 1 Willow 49 - 43 S. 45° K. 7 Cotton Wood N.4.';"W. 10 : Willow 43 - 44 Corner on a Willow ] 44-45 45 - 46 S- 39" W. N. 31° VV. 10 11 Willow Willow N.5*E, S- iy°E. 27 Cotton Wood 1 1 ; Willow 4« - 47 Corner on a Cotton Wood ] 47 - 48 N. 31° W. 12 Cotton Wood S. 45° W. j i 10 , Sycamore 48 - 49 Corner on a Box Elder I 49 - 50 N. 4a' W. 13 Hox I'.kler S. GO. W. 24 i Sycamore 50 - 5« S. il-E. 27 Willow N.49"\V. tg Cotton Wood 5» - 5» N. 18° W. 15 Cotton Wood S. 29" W. 28 Sycamoie 5a - 53 N. 82° E. 12 Cotton Wood N. 4o» W. Cotton Wood 53 - 54 N. 86° W. 29 Cotton Wood S. 6' E. 30 Sycamore 54 - 55 West 9 Sycamore S. 40° W. 22 ! Sycamore 55 - 56 S. 4° W. >7 Ash S. 8G» W. 33 Cotton Wood 56 - 57 North 16 Dogwood S.3-W. 19 Dogwood 57 - 58 Corner on a Cotton Wood 58 - 59 Corner on an Ash 59 - 60 N. 4° W. 8 Box Elder * (io - Ci N. 68° E. 54 Oak Pi ■>'■ V \V' it r. n:t llii r tj f 4 I 4 624 APPENDIX TO THIKD EEPOKT OF THE [Plaie i Frdtlional Township, N' 2. Range, N' 8. East Land District, North of' Red River, State of Louisiana — continued. BACK ..f TRACTS fronliiig on RED .nd MISSLSSIPPI RIVERS. Back. Course. Uijf ill Links. Urarini; Course. Dist' in Linl^s. 1 Bearing Tret-s. 1 and 2 N.46°\V. 7 E. Wood S. 37° W. 1 «9 Hickory 2-3 N.43-W. 3 Locust S. i6' W. 1 1 E. Wood 3-4 S. 50" W. 26 , Iron Wood N 13" W. iS Iron Wood 4 - 5 N.i7*\V. 16 Iron Wood S. 80° W. 14 Iron Wood 5 - 6 N. 4° W. 7 lAJCUSt S. 36" W. 12 Iron Woo7 E. Wood N. 14" 1;. 23 E. W o(„| 12 - 13 N. 9" ^■ 1 1 Locust N.'JG'W, 17 E. \Vi„,d 13 - 14 N. 12''\V. 20 Iron Wood N. 72° E. 4 Iron W.Nid 14 - 15 N. 3° E. 11 Iron Woixl N. 12°W. 7 Elbow WiKxl 15 - i6 N.arW. 16 I.lllUst N 63* E. 2:> Hickory i6 - ,7 N. 18° E. 9 Iron Wood N. 4° W. 12 Lo - 38 Corner on an Elbow Wood 38 - 39 S. 1 8' E. 42 E. Wo.k1 S. 74° E. 12 E. Wood 39 - 40 S. 6° E. 18 Willow S. 88° E. 3 E. Wood 40 - 41 S. 36" E. 9 Cypress S. 78° E. 18 E. Wood 41 - 42 S. 48" E. 14 Willow S. 87' E. 27 Willow 42 - 43 S. 50» E. 43 Elbow Woo*l S. 84" E. 13 Willow 43 - 44 S. 3o» E. 4 E. Wood N. .56" E. 12 Cypress 44-45 N. 18° E. 12 E. Wood S, 60° E. 7 Willow 45 - 46 N. 44* E. «4 Willow ^. 73" E. 26 Willow 46 - 47 Corner on an EllwwWood 47 - 48 N. 8o» E. 4 E. Wood S. 44° E. 3 E. Woo.t 1 [Plaic t, North of Bearini; Trers. Hickory K. ^^■ooh 35 and 3G, Elbow WoiKl E. Wood E. Wood E. Wood WiUow WiUow Cypress Willow Wiliow E. Womi ij ■ ■ I.BI1II.W II H I HM . Third report of committkiI Tomiship IS MManoe 1 £(zs/^ Z V Hand District. J^o/tA o/ ' Red , V. __JL 6S0 (Adfttdf: '<'-' .«• 0F COMMOJfS, % OF COMMITTKE ON flMTORATION. nrt.j^orlJi o/' Red Jit ye r. Stale of Zouisiana Tah/e of O)/ it mis 1 ? 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 JO n 12 Area 659. 25 641 . oo 640.75 641.25 642.75 64i.S9 644. OO 643. Xo 643.25 64ii.OO 642. r>o 660.75 .Y: J, rrn 13 14 15 16 17 Id 19 20 21 12 23 24 662.50 647. ?5 647.25 646. ao 644.75 645. 25 645.00 644.75 645. 25 645.20 644. Oi^ 66s Ml X A> ren 65.0. 25 643. zi 615. 25 28 \ 647. 75 ■i9 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 646. 00 644.75 643. 25 644. 00 644 ■■ 75 645. 25 645.50 661. 25 » • /ott//i (f •yeftf/ifr. € or COM.HOJfS, : /a/€:M^n/»/,?S^.^ne^927. InJbe tftM.*anl X-Sonj. Pttnterv ^ <.■: - t ri-f**!"'": •" I • • l.< m li" i .>> }■ f ^ im >m- ,..f-*- T.VBl.K () V (' O N 1 Y. NTS. N? Area x; .irfii X': .lr,a ^;-:.'.r::;:rr:* .^„ — — *j 1 — ^ ~I 1 I ie4 m :*• ITl n;t 51 llil ?.5 » KIT M iT IIU M .'l* ITU H7 3 i:-,> a, ;« I.U Id .Hi in m 1 4 mi .Ti •19 \'ii . .*» 54 170 n-i S t:i J/ M I/U 4tl .V> IHH . tU 6 IT/)-. 14 :u 114 mt .'>!> ITl la 1 7 Ml r-' :i? as (Ml J / Km n 8 /;v o/ 3.1 144 IKi .'i8 in. -14 ! 9 ITT III A/ m T.'i .19 lii.Oo ,i 10 ITS . 114 A? 13-i TB r>(i i.i7 oa jU \ Jea. »■! .»? Kii :iT fir 164 (17 12 /«?. (Ml :i7 i&i . ifi (i'J 104 . oO 13 j in; . .Ill .18 103 . ij 14 11 , .ao 3,1 l /v_'^//'//v/ OF COMMITTKK ON KMK.MATION. 7/. mae/y for MiiAt/af/fu^ tAr f^eneral .system . USE or roMMOAs./,' /,jA/„/^■■ ", "••.l--">»^ A \ mam m^mm MiUMN .:^d^iMi IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I mm 125 lu I2i2 12.2 u liii £f li£ 12.0 •^1 m |,.25 ii^iy^ < 6" » "V ^^ ^> <^ ^> Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WIST MAIN STRUT WnSTER.N.Y. 14580 (716)S72-4S03 N5 \ iV <^ 4^ %0 J; ■^'"i' 1 5 I » ■A- .^vif' Bji L-to 1 J^^OrtrAATiOiT mmA TtUDE of die BBITISH NORTH All ERIC Air COLOIflES Eimorts OAiiiM Value Hinaiber «•« iao« ISSS iao« i8a« M^ Timt 4Ww r«M» •A*!' iT«w JIlMW 72>m iHiMi S / t •UM ■Il«.4(l5 40l.^M £ •o lOMk Tsa aaAWM « usaa 1 Ma i7a.7«s KtmBnmmh* »i0M n.tM ««» aw.u« 4MM 4MIOA «.!«• 71.MS M.«M ' oomii ^ K E tfMltA I 1 ** WtxWlFk j^*''.''..VJ>y THIR0. JiEPORT ON EMIGRATION. "\ ■moTi MAgo MMIM COLOjriAL DEPAHTMENT. r THIRD iflEPORT ON EMIGRATION. Si f » •^ N ^ V. ina r^n^ 1^ ffwtm /jit c ^-* ^ \f^M0lf' W«"t' .^^•/ »«w^< 'i'^ '^^S- U> ' «-'.rj ...-■ ^ ••*• S fjiirM* C o <*>;. »'*'..-' <«<» yrr L'o*. wV j^ 'o. ••H 4;^ 'T o«Ti ^ «l^ >irr U L «"■ a P ^1 ''>«iiel i^ JtunxrJf fSI'FP^" 8 fb> 1 G\0 5\!» \ l> c.%>iSSCT ^H'.«*«-=^*'' \ 1 \ \ I I :"■ ;**■ 4^ — fr r»o O 'JT!* ^^1-» ifl-wr C.S'.C«J*«!i*' IM»V »''' so*> St" '¥ .fi—' .c.n« .w.**' ♦> C.O*fi It>y r^*V Uhd» l»^ guHltrrM \T O N 46 CM * T » A »V rp^ij^m^y^tTF^a FcC"»* 45 ^ , ^Wi \ iMure Lamb .^ jOml Fa , \*t f mi. jB*:^' P"*^/. 'Oop.*.^:^Swi II* V »'«^^r?' *«*4Jru&^, ^lex •■vifc tt 17 ^^""^ ■*?>•*** O (K « 1 1 a MM - J* diiwtaf ^ { r JWMM « a-»<*»rf t"- iSi5-*< X.. =*®^« >'*' Jf ■*»*«7 e>^»?- W-^ K K ■ »r T - A ■'**••«► ^'■^KSt Tlt^' K .N 8 Oniard hy Oie ff^iue of Conmunu to he Printed, 29 f' June 18^7. Ordered hy ^ Souee of Comnume to he Printed, wf" June 1827. «.<»*8**1 ^7. ^HRDfl *•' .t ^♦**. k t9 E. Wood N. 5R" E. 4 E. Wood 50 - 51 N. 52* E. 13 Willow N. 73° I^- 30 E. Wood 5« - 6« N. 4«' E. 40 E.Wood N. 03* E. >7 Locust 6« - 63 N. H* E. SO Locust N. 76" E. >7 E. Wood C3 - 64 N. 9» E 6 E. Wood N. 58* v.. 4 E. Wood 64 - 55 N. 40* E. 44 Ash N. aa* E. 9 E. Wood 66 - 56 N. 10" E. 3ci Locust S. 50" E. 16 E. Wood 66 - 67 N. 6° W. 11 E.Wood S. 5»° E. 47 Iron Wood 67 - 68 N. 40* E. 6 E.Wood South «4 Locust 58 - 69 Corner on an E. AVood 69 - 60 N. 4* E. 8 Overcup Oak 60 - 61 Comer 00 an O.Oak Ml SUPPLEMENTARY. THE LAND in front of Red River overflows from 8 to 10 feel, in the rear from 45 to 30 feet: Grov»th— Locust, Iron Wood, Elbow Wood, and Cypress. The Land generally in front of the Mississippi is subject to overflow from 1 to 3 feet, and in the rear from ao to 30 feet : Growth— Overcup Oak, Ash, Elbow Wood, Locuit, WiUow, &c. 8sc. Bug. / 550. 4K LIST r?' Gif! WITNESSES EXAMINED BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE LIST OK WITNESSES EXAMINED BEFORE THE COMMITTEE, With the Pages of their Evidence. // ADAMS, Thomiu, Overtccr of the Pour nt Mildcnhall, in Suffolk BARNAIlD, Edward, Esq. Agent for New South Wales • I3EAUVAIS, Louis, Esq. • - DEECIIER, Rev. John Thomas, Magistrate in Nottinghamsliire • BLAKE, Anthony Richard, Esq. BODKIN, John, Esq BRADBUKV, Mr. Thomas, late Overseer of the Poor, in Great Nor-' wood Parish in Buckinghamshire ...... BROWN, Robert, Lieut. General BUCHANAN, Alexander Carlisle, Esq. resident on the Yamaska River,] Lower Canada -j BURKELL, Walter, Esq. (a Member of the Committee) • CAMPBELL, Archibald, Esq. (a Member of the Committee) CAMPBELL, Alexander, Esq. Sheriff Substitute for Renfrewshire CARLISLE, Frederick, Esq. resident at the Cape of Good Hope -i CHESTER, Bishop of CLEMENT, Lieut. Hanbury, R. N. resident in New South Wales COSWAY, William Richard, Esq COULINC, Mr. William, Civil Engineer DIXON, Hugh, Esq. Land Agent in Ireland . . . . - DRUMMOND, Henry Home, Esq. (a Member of the House) - EATON, Richard Webber, Esq. Merchant, formerly a resident at thel Cape of Good Hope ....... .j ELLIS, Henry, Esq. formerly Colonial Secretary at the Cape of Goodl Hope -•/ ELMORE, John Richard, Esq. M.D. late Master Manufacturer in the*) Soudi of Ireland .........J FELTUN, William Bowman, Esq. a Legislative Councillor of Lower*! Canada .--....--.-J FIELDEX, William, I'sq. Master Manufacturer in Loncashire • I'lTZHUGH, Mr. William Ludlow, Agent for Emigrants at Liverpool - FOSTER, John Leslie, Esq. (a Member of the Committee) FOSTER & LITTLE, Messrs. Joseph and James, Weavers in Glasgow . FRANCIS, David Polly, Esq. resident at the Cape of Good Hope • IIOMEWOOD, Mr. James, Overseer at Headcorn, in Kent HOWE, Mr. John, Postmaster in Nova Scotia . - - - IIULTON, William, Esq. Magistrate in Lancashire . . - - HUNTER, Alexander, Esq. Writer of the Signet, and Land Agent in"! Scotland J HUNTON, Mr. Thomas, Master Manufacturer in Carlisle ... HYETT, William Henley, Esq. Secretary of the Committee for the"l Relief of Distressed Manufacturers .-••-•] INGLI8, James, Esq. Director of the Van Diemen's Land Company . KENNEDY, Thomas Francis, Esq. (a Member of the House) - LACOSTE, Thomas, Esq. of tne Parish of Chcrtsey, in Surrey - MAINE, Mr. Samuel, Overseer of the Poor, at Handwortli, in Mid-1 dlest^x .....J 834. -, 305, 306. 306, 307. 400 to 405. 456 to 460. 371 to 977. 143 to 144. 370 to 371. IOG to II 3. 301 10309; 433 to 439. 455. 463 to 464. 136 to 143. 54 to 59- 189 to 300. i55to>57- 30310305, 453- -'.SS- 335 to 343. 394 to 398, 378 to 383. 358 to 368. 356 to 365. 69 to 65. 30,5 to 3og. 159 to 164. 464 to 466. 11310134. 167, 168. 433 to 433. 309 to 316. 333 to 334. 30710311.33710343, 45 to 54. 14410150.16910171. 178 to 180. 399 to 400. Sl6 to 333. 387 to 393. 3iBo to 387. 344 to 353, 394- 59 to 63. 171 to 173. l8o, 181. ON EMIGRATION FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM. 9tf MVblllUH, Rev. ThomM Hohcrt MAHSHAL, Capt. William, Superintendent of the Lanark Sutllcnientl { in CanaJa /| MARSHAL, John Murkham, Eiq. of Kerry, in Ireland MAXWELL, John, Eaq. (• Member of the Committee) M'-UILLIVHAY, .Simon, Eaq. Chairman of Canada Company MOODY, Major Thoman, Itoyal Engineers .... MOUNT, Mr. RoKwell, Surveyor of Land in Upper Canada MURPHY, Dr. William, Physician at Cork, in Iioland • NIMMO, Alexander, Esq. Civil Engineer .... NOnTHHOUSE, Mr. William Spencer, Editor ofthe Free I'rcs.i NcwsO paper. Agent for Emigration Society in Glasgow . . .j O'DRISCOLL, John, Esq. of Cork, in Ireland .... O'HARA, Lleut..Colunel, CD PARNELL, Sir Henry (a Member of the Committee) P0WLE8, John Diston, Esq. Director of the Colombian Agricultural^ Association j FRINOLE, Thomas, late resident at the Cape of Good Hopo - RICE, Spri.ng. Esq. (a Member of the Committee) ... RODtNSON, Peter, Es(|. Superintendent of the Settlements of Irish') Pauper Emigrants in Upper Canada J SCOTT, Capt Henry William, R. K. late Naval Officer in New'l Brunswick, and formerly Assist. Surveyor General in Nova ScoliaJ 8EWELL, Jonathan, Esq. Chief Justice of Lower Canada SMITH, John, Esq. Banker, at Oundle, in the County of Northampton STANLEY, Hon. Edward G. (a Member of the Committee) 3TRACHAN, Dr. John, Archdeacon of Upper Canada ... STRICKLAND, Jerrard, Esq. Land Agent in Ireland TAIT k WILSON, Messrs. John & James, Weavers in Glasgow - TAYLOR, Mr. James, Overseer of the Poor at Feltham, in the County "I of Middlesex J THOMPSON, Mr. George, Merchant at the Cape of Good Hope TIGHE, Robert Sterne, Esq. of Mitchels Town, County of Wcstmeath TREDGOLD, Mr. Tliomos, Civil Engineer TURNER, Rev. John Matthias, of Wilmslow, in Cheshire ... VANDELEUR, John Scott, Esq. Magistrate in the County of Clare, in"! Ireland J WAGNER, Mr. Benedict Paul, late resident in Lower Canada - WEATliERLEY, Capt. James Dent, H. P. resident in Upper Canada - WEST, Mr. James, Land Agent in Ireland ..... WHirrAKER, J. W. of Blackburn, in Lancashire .... WHITE, Lieut. Thomas Charles, H. P. resident at the Cape of Good) Hope -.....--...J WILLS, Mr. Benjamin WILSON, David John, Esq. of the County of Clare, in Ireland - WRIGHT, Mr. Thomas 3 11 to Si-!- • •;|l'- 439- 433- 407 to 411. 86, «7. 393i 304- 4*' I 10 4()3. fij to 73. 83 to SB. 405. 407. 43a, 440. 383 to 388. 348 to 331. 87 to 104. i(>4to 167. fid tu lar). 45'>. sooto 301.451 to 453. 4G7 to 475. 150 to 155. 37710.279. 445 to 450. 344 to 357' 389 to 390. 41a to 43i.4;)3. aja to j^f). 31)0, aai. lag, 130. 460, 461. 130 to 136. 388,381;. 33t to 337. 104 to io(>. 174 to 178. aoa to aoj. 440 to 445. 391 to 393. 73 to 83. 18a. 3U0, 301. 357. 358. 134 to 126. 397 to 300. 301 to 303. • 57 to 159- ««"• 368 to 374. 365 to 369. 39310397. 374 to 378. K 2 INDEX m li 6.18 INDHX TO TIIK I'lllNCII'AL MAITF.HS HETAILED IN Till; INDEX TO THE PHISi ll'-l I. MAT IF. US Detailed in Kvidcnn; tukcii l)ffore thv Select Committee appointed to ciiriuirr into the expediency of fncciuru^in^ Kniigriition from the United Kin|;duin. fHINCII'AL IIEAIMt. AGHICULTUKB; Haml-loom weavi 10 .3843. 384C 10 3865. 3345 to 3348. 434C. log, 110, 111. 114, 115, lit). 118. 139, 140. 939. 26'i. >74y- 396. 3170. 659. 676. 7U3. 794- 878. 133- 3C04 to 3619. 4397. 4398- 908 to 997. 1005. 98G to loou. HAUB u( lh« KVIUENCt. 47- (!9. 83. to. 8fl. no, 991, 913. 3S8 to 3(!7, 3(58 to 374. 374 to 37». 391, 393. 4fl3. 5«. 5H- 60. 03. 184. 7«. at6. 88, 90. 105. 164 to 16G. 111. 5>. 347 to 349- 4<'3. 4C4- 113 to 117. 135. 194, 195. eviDBNci. luu'oiu: srijicT i oMMinr.i: (jn r.MK.uATioN 6t.j PHINdl'.M IlkAUS. CANADAS ; ini|irovi'ini'iilit iin tliu I'lirm will bu nil iiniiilc lucurity lor (lie loon nilviinccd III ni'ttlvrh thu prcicnt ftnrc of l\w Minlgruiilit I'ruiii Irvluiicl lent liy (ioviTiiiiivnt to. (Ivmunil for labour in • land in, often inuppliciiblu for iic'tl lenient, frniii imtcntuvn not |ieiforniing their a|{reviiienta. land ill tlie lower province tliiefly held in ■eigncurio, in which cimc the interiat of u debt i( collected nioru eiuiljr. Eniiirranti to, with o^riciilturnl liiibiu, will bo the moat Inclined to aetk unaiiit- nncu from Uovernnicnt it fimt. ciuuiil EmigrantH to, olten exposed to great inconvunivnco when great nuui- berB arrive. sum which auch an Emigrant oupht to hove on hia landing, to prevent incon- venience or diitreaa. ' largo aums have been auhscribed in Lower Canada for the relief of casual Emi- granta. > Emigration to, on the principle of being planted or located by uovernnient, recommended. • dcairablo that redundant agricultural labourcra ahould emigrate to the. CANADA COMPANY; circumatancca under which Emigrant! would be aettled by the Company. -^— Prospectus of, shewing the conditions on which their lands will be disposed of. CAPE OF GOOD HOPE ; would engage to repay to Government by annual instal- mentu, the expense of removing an able bodied pauper Emigrant to. great demand for labour at vould require on annual supply of la- bourers for many years. the demand for labour will be cncreased, as markets are found for the sale of its produce. Struchuii .Marnliiil - Itiibiiiaiin Sewcll • Mount (rilurit - UabiiiHon Itiiliiiiion Striichaii I'V'lton I'elton ■ Felton i'elton • Felton Felton Felton Wentlierley - W. Uurrell - S. M'Gillivray S. M'Gillivray Eaton Thompson Francis - Ellis Carlisle • Pringle - Francis - White . Ellis Carlisle • White - Francis - Pringle - Ellis Thompson Eaton Francis - Ellis Pringle - Nl Mlittl Ul ll.r I rum li>.'|(( tu I'ltU;. I \ \'i to 1 144. .)(ij(i lu ,i(i.i:i. 4011.1 Id 41M1H. 4l(il to 4170. :j<;4J to 3(!(i;j. ;|liMH to .|lit<(). :iL>7:) •" 3'J77- IJiO. U35 to 938 • !»53 to •JiC'- 051 to ffii. yC8 to 075. ()(iy to 981. T'J'. 00'^ • 1179, 1181, 1183. 4043 to 4049. 191JO to >943. 1854 to 18G0. 13H to 1331. 1478 to 1504. 1430 to 1431. 1381, 138J. 130a to 1333. 1468 to 1471. 1473. »474- 4353- 1450. 1,361. 1.385 to 1389. 1483 to 1489. 1887 to 1890. 1955. Eaton 550. 4K3 195''- >35C. 1353. 1491. 1403 to 1406. 1419 to 1432. 1933 to 1951. l'A(>t «( lU i.fi4)i.Ncr.. 130. i.ii 130. ,14;) to 3Jl. :v.)"- .19'- 4U49- I Co. 163. 156- 153- »47. >49- »59- I Co. 453- >57. 158. 150, >59. 153- iCi, i6s. 304. aog. 150. ^55- 306. ao8. {continued.) I. I III ■ :i Mil i I," (tjo INDEX TO TIIK PKINCMPAI. MA1Ti:ilH DrTAlLED IN THR rniNciiMi. iiRAUi wiTNtasa CAPE or GOOD IIOIM.) Imid in, cuiuiot now b« proAulilv ciiltiruii'U liv capiinliMi * wiifi Oeo laiiourvri, (nun iiic high mu oC wigvt. I ^— — propotal for liking out Jabourem ilivreto ; { tli« Dii|H. among the Iriah farmer* in ge- ■•ei '-, axcept the grazieri. imp>'>v...jilifi <''! >ntroduc!.ig, into Ire- .ind. i-j 'Mc preient Half f f her popu- latioF, c'-iiiti, hr.veier, in the hands of the un- employed claiici, and only require* to be called into action. i'ringle Carluie White Carliilu PrinKlii - Thoiiipaon Francii • Carliilo - I'aton r.iii* • I'ringle . l^ton • I'rancii • I'ringle - Kllin • Carlisle - Franci* • Pringle - Ellii . Ellis - Carlisle • White - Francis - ^'ringle - F.llis - Felton • Fiancii - White - Ellli - Eaton • Thompioo Sirachan Bodkin • Malthui - Bodkin • Malthus - L. Foster Marshall ■ Strickland Malthui - Strickland M;MH»:n ■It ili« gturiON. 13I5 to 140.1. 1441. 1443 l4l>o to l4Uy. I8jl. I.t(>4 to 1301. 1871 to lUSl. 1909. nW to 117O, 1990. 1307. I 413 to 1430 •04.1- M04. 197010 1380. i(K*i I843< I33«. 1301- 1433- "355. 1356. ISB^. 1413. I4U(> to 1403. 1509. 1303. «4!W- 144S. «.337- '3f''. 137« to i.Ui. ijoi lo lju8. 15H to J514. 1514 to 15S3. 148(3! 1946. >y>3. >9>4- 1110 to 1190. 9S08. 3334 to 3.');!n «79>- -,W 3960 to T^o 3' ,• 4995 f.> 4i.'(> 33 19- 3334- 3339- 3537- PAOK KVIUKNCL IJl to I j4. «47- •38. '59- toi. 3"2- Ml. 903, 104, 905, «43. I4fli '47- 155. >3fl. 907. .63. 131. I5<- 907. i3.r ItJ3. i^ii. 1,'iO. •5«- "55- 1(19. 1O3. i<)3. 303 i:j7. 149. «50. i.'>i- lO.), 164. 1C7, ifiS. iCg to 171. «59- 161, 1C9. 908. 905. •34. t35- 976. 391. 4>0. 334- 391. % 335> 336. EVIDRNCK BF.FOP SKr.RCT 4- •oliiUliiiK I'nrmt. ■i mori', couM be iiriiAtnlily up|ilitil to Uiu vulliviilion of the toil, by liortii '''\r»l t'uriiiiiitt, llian !• tlone iit prnvni, vulicr in IjigTand or Irolaiid. — — •mploycd In machinery, In proportion ai it renilvri human lubour \v»* nt'Crapary, KOviTM tlio ralu of wugi'i tu iho inu- nuructuring laboiirvr, -— ' to be coHildered a« loan, if it can be iliewn that the amount tpent In iucat* Ing Emigrants will be repaid. ^ . ,v the inlerettt of Berioni poHcuing it, are affected by low wogci tu the labourer. CAPITALISTSi xiile CAPITAL. iHAllOr.S on the land in Ireland, chiefly fall on the occupier. enumeration of tomu of theie • • CLIvAUINO of K8TATKS in Ireland) tho ex- tent to which it ii now practlied. probable extoniion of the lyitem of for tome time to come, it may be ilowly acted upon, tffuctii attending the lyitem of • - ■ evili of; diminiihed by a lyitom of Emigration. Vide DISTURBANCES. COLUMBIAN AOKICULTURAL ASSO- CIATION : complninti of Emigrant* sent fruni Scotland by the Aaaociation, and the Stutemcnt ot the British Con- sul at the Caraccas, as to the pitiable condition of thi> Emigrants, who soli- cited to be sent to Canada. Stateni«a« of, respecting the cause of the distressed conaition of the Emigrants. COMBINATION , to Mtabliiih a minimum of wages amunK the artisans and labourer* in Cork. CONVEYANCE of persons and goods in the British Provinces of North America, much facilitsted by the introduction of Steam Vessels. COTTAGES; landlord* of, when vestryiaen, would be reluctuit to pull them down when rented by paupers. UII.NKIHM. .Kl MIILR n< l. 4394. 4135- 4"43. 4335< 3601 to 1619, 4930 to 4(33. 4335 to 4336, 4393. 9780 to 9786. 3«4>. 3081 to 3191. 35»«. 3533. 43a5- 3959- 396«. 4949. 4396- 444>- 444 «. 444«. 390y to 3996- 3677 to 36Sj. 3691 to ,3094- 500 to 504. I'tUK <- 964, 9<'j. 410, 411. 45I* 460. 974. .301. 997. ,300, 334> 335- 44». 387. 4«i. 40 1. 467. 467. 469. 384. 385- 354- 355. 79- 189. (jcontinued.) ;ii 637 INDEX TO THE PUINCIPAL MATTERS DETAILED IN THE rniNciPAi. HEADS. WITNESSES. COTTAGES; rate payers, when not landlords of, desirous that they should be pulled down, upon the removal o( pauper occupiers. the pulling down of, rcconmiended, when pauper occupants are removed to pre- vent the recurrence of a redundant population, erected by landlords in Scotland for the reception of Irish paupers, ought to be taxed in proportion to tlie expense in- curred for the support of the pauper occupants. tax on, recommended to be applied to parochial purposes, and to be paid by the landlords. the rent of, ought not to be paid from the poor rates, in which case few new ones will be built. CRIME; increase of, in Ireland, in consequence of increased population, and want of employment. emigration of redundant pauper labourers would diminish the extent of, in England. DEMAND for Commodities; raised by the Emigrants in Canada, will secure the success of such settlers. for Commodities ; limited, even under the favourable circumstances of low wages paid for their production. diminished for muslin goods, one of the causes of the distress among the weavers of Glasgow. DISTRESS of the working classes in the neigh- bourliood of Glasgow is general among the hand-loom weavers. in the county of Ayr has been urgent - in the county of Lanark . . - a statement showing the extent to which relief had been granted in Ren- frewshire, where the distress was les- sening. mode of diminishing it, in future, among weavers in Scotland. ■ the extent of, at Manchester, where it was considered to be decreasing. . state of, in tlie parish of (Jreat Horwood, in Buckinghamshire. Statistical Return, shewing the degree of distress in difi'erent gvirts of England and Scotland. in the vicinity of Blackburn, and the causes thereof. in the vicinity of Bolton ... Moody Burrell Malthas - Cosway Rice - Beecher Ilulton O'Driscol • I'arnell Bra^'bury Weatherly Strachan - Malthus - Northhouse - Foster & Little Northhguse - Hyett - - . Kennedy - - Maxwell - - Arch'' Campbell Alex' Campbell Maxwell - - Alex' Campbell Moody - - Brodbury Hyett - - - Fielden - - Hullon - - NUMIlEK ol tbc QURSTION. 607 to Cia. 1167 to iiGg. 1188. 337>- 3875 to 388G. 4333. 4334- 4>35. 2100, 3101. 2J33. 1034. 4341 to 4344. 1931, 1232. 1008 to 1013. io8q to 108 A. 3279, 3380. 675- 7- 38. C57. G58. C70. 703. 2324. 224. 227. 622. 185. 209. >752- 1754- 1737- C27 to 63C. '739. 1740. 175410 1757. 32D. 33«. 1221 to 1228. 1238 to 1244. 233'J. 2340. 2342, igGi. 1963. 2022. 2037 to 2040. 2075 to 2078. 2084. 2125. 2127. PAGE u( the EVIDENCE. 85. «39 lo 141. 3iC- 380. 382. 45'J- 402. 330 to 232. 127. 451. 45a- 143. 136. 134. 317- go. 45- 47. 89. . 90- 93- 244. 59. 60. 86. 56, 57- 185. 182. 86, 87. 183. 185, 186. 68. 142 to 143. 144. ■24.5 to 248. 2oy. 213. 214. 21C to 218. 223. V EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMIITEE ON EMIGRATION. 633 PRINCIPAL HEADS. DISTRESS in Mancliestcr, and other paru of Lanciuliire. more general among tlic liand-loom weavers in the Hills, who hold small portions of land, than among those who work in the large towns. in Carlisle and its neighbourhood, has existed for the last 18 months. causes thereof . . - . . shewn in the amount of earnings of 15 weavers. — — — in tlie Western Islands of Scotland in parts of Ireland . - . . i- » in the towns of Irdand has increased from ejected tenants seeking employ- ment. double ; tlie meaning thereof in Ireland, and the effect of the Act against sub- letting, in preventing. instance of double ... - of agricultural labourers, enhanced by the competition of unemployed weavers. probability of the mitigation of, among the poor, if aregulated system of Emi- gration were established. DISTURBANCES in Ireland chiefly caused by ejected tenants, whose residence on the land as such, was mischievous to the principal landlord and the middle farmer. Firff PEASANTRY of Ireland. CLEAR- ING of ESTATES in Ireland. EJECTION of TENANTS in Ireland. Vide CLEARING of ESTATES in Ire- land. DOUBLE DISTRESS. EMIGRANTS ; those desirous to go from Glas- gow, are determined to follow agricul- tural pursiuits, and not weaving. many weavers in Scotland wish to become. from Scotland cannot contribute towards the expense of their removal, but will repay any loan advanced to them, and must be supplied with provisions. from the Isle of Rum to Cape Breton ; their present state. the removal of 9,000 persons out of the 5,000 who have applied, would be of great benefit to Renfrewshire. 5,50. Bishop of Chf.«ter. Bishop of Chester. Ilunton - Hunton - Hunton - Hunter O'Driscoll Dixon Wilson West - . - Vandeleur L. Foster - - J. M. Marshall Stanley - - Tighe - - - Elmore - - Rice - ■ - Rico - - - Blake Wilson Maxwell Turner Hunton Malthus O'Driscoll Vandeleur Dixon Wilson L. Foster - Foster & Little Arch''Canipbell Northhouse - Tait & Wilson Northhouse - Alex' Campbell Hunter - - Alex' Campbell NUMDER of Ihe QUESTION. 3962. 3370, 22G2. 3567. 2271. 4374. 3375. S38l. 2857. 2858 to 28C0. 2908 to 3973. 103C to 1029. 2470 to 2,105. 3,'-, 18 to 2575. 3615 to 21)31. 2C4.9 to 36G8. 3052 to 3058. 3071 td 3080. 3185. 4171 to 4190. 4394- ' 4-^87. 4404 to 4407. 4415- 4317- 431G. 43o7- 3002 to 3007. .'ill. 2848. 3349 to 3356. 1034. 3129- 3G0I to 2()12, 2623. 3185. 4 I^ 133, I/O- 731, 73». 788 to 79;v ()57 to im. 713. 720. 1749' 2907 to 2922. 1745- PAGE of Ihe EVIDENCE. «37. ^39- 337. ^38- 238. 838— s 39- 381. 381. 283. 285 10 387 390. 127. a.'-.G-ssS. 259-;-2*>i' 265. 267— 2G8. 29^. !«97- 301. 310. 407—408. 460. 440. 464. 4G5. 44G. 44C. 456- 293- 80. 79- 281. 3«a. 127. 300. 2G4 — 265. 2G,-5. 310. 51. 55- 9',- 104, 105. 89 to 91. 93— 94. 184. 287—288. 183. {cantinurd.) I h. I :• \ il^ k 634 INDEX TO THE PniNCIP vl, MATTERS DETAILED IN THE pniNCIPAL HEADS. EMIUllANTS ; many Imvu located tlicmaelvi's in Canadii, with u little aasistaiicc from tlicir trit'iids, and now prosper. muit be ossiatcd and protected by Go- vernment, under some regular system. ' former ; remit money to their friends in Ireland. pauper ; on their arrival in Canada, should be immediately loi^ated, if em- ployment cannot be found tor them. the expense of sending a family of, to the Cape of Good Hope. the expense of, going to Canada - comparative estimate of expense for lo- cating, in Canada and tlic Cape of Good Hope. estimated expense of sending, from Scot- land to Nova Scutia or New Bruns- wick. proposal to take to Cape of Good Hope proposal to take, to New South Wales - and Van Diemen's Land expense of passage of, from Liverpool to the United States and Quebec. no temptation for, to leave Canada for the United States, if they immediately begin to locutions. build and improve their of the pauper, arriving in Canada, a greater portion now remain there than fornierly. of those going to the United States, many ultimately settle in Canada. peasantry in Ireland, desirous to become from Liverpool to Canada, chiefly Irish - gcncrolly go to New York and Philadel- phia, nnd only few to the Hritish Colonics. to the United States, are chiefly manu- facturers from Yorkshire and Lan- cashire. . country weavers in England, desirous to become. ■ many weavers desirou.s to become, have experience in agricultural presents. . would be capable of repaying the sum advanced for their location. WITNESSED. Foster & Little Arch'' Campbell Northhousu Buchanan Hunter - Fitzhugh Buchanan Buchanan Francis - Carlisle - Felton - Buchanan Felton - Francis ■ Hunter - Carlisle - Beauvais Clement • Fitzhugh Weatherly Buchanan Moody - Dixon Wilson Fitzhugh Fitzhugh Fitzhugh Bisjhop of Chester Hyelt - - Foster & Little ArcM Campbell II. 11. Unintniuiid Felton Weatherly Strachan Marshal - Kobinson .Scott Sewell - - Mount - O'Hara - - NUMUEH of (he QUESTION. 47- >«3- l8o, l8l. 7i6 to 729. 7C7 to 772. Sao to 870. 0O7- 2990 to 3000. 2138 to 3149. aiS,-; to 3173. 3{2()6 to 3211. 870 to 872. 895 to 903. 1361. 4353- 979i 980. 1512 to 1514. '5«5 to 1553. 2986 to 2989. 40G7 to 4112. 2187 to 9192. 1004 to 1006. 884. 396. 8501. 3066. 3170. 2150, 3151. 3174 to *>78. 2i239- 3076. 3777. 2363. 37- 5«- 178. 286 to 290. 908 to 927. 986 to 1000. 1059 to 10(^6. 1132 to 1144. 3620 to 3639. 3093 to 399('- 2405, 2406. 4003 to 4008. 4lfil. 4170. PAGE of the EVIDENCE. 47 to 51. 55. 94 to 9(i- 98. loG to 110. >>3- 292. 223 to 22G. 228. 112— .113. >45- 453-455- 123—124. 201, 202. 1C7, 168. l6g to 171. 391, 391. 303- 453. 306, 307. 395 to 398. 337. 135, 136. 111. 72. 258. 296. 236. 223. 226. 230. "39. 250. 47- .55. 65. 113 to 117. 134—125. 130— >3'- 136. 349 to 3,51, 390' 253- 39». 406, 407. 45<'. ^ EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION. fi.ifi PRINCIPAL HEADS. WITNESSES. EMIGRANTS ; number and averace property of the cauual, arriving in the Canadas. — — number* of men, women and children Mnt out by Government to Canada, may be varied from those sent out in 1885. present state and condition of those paupers ; sent by Government from Ireland, and who were located in Canada. EMIGRATION ; must be from Ireland as well as Great Britain, to enable the latter country to derive any relief from the removal of redundant labourers. a well regulated system of, favourable to the prosperity of the poor. alone can remedy the evils of a redun- dant population in Ireland, together with measures to prevent a recurrence. Vide IRELAND. ■ necessary to commence any remedy for improving the condition of unemployed labourers in Scotland. . if only a part were removed by, the condition of the remaining labourers would be greatly improved. ■ the hope of, has caused that patience with which the weavers of Scotland have borne their present distress. • of one class of labourers, would make room for the employment of other classes unable to emigrate. - societies may be formed in Ireland, to aid. - the necessity of establishing a regulated system of, shewn from the great in- crease of populatir>n and misery among the labourers in Ireland. - rate-payers in English parishes, would contribute ro aid the removal of able- bodied healthy paupers, by a regular system of. Robinson • Strachan - Robinson • Weatherly Robinson - Drunmiond - Turner - - Alex. Campbell BUliop uf Chester Malthas - - Turner - - Bishop of Chester Foster - - Malthus - - Dixon - • Wilson Bodkin Rice - - Foster - - Malthus - Maxwell - Malthus - Northhouse Wilson West - - Northhouse Vandeleur Foster Wilson Parnell Tighe - - Parnell - Kice - - Turner Moody Smith - - Burrcll - Bradbury La Coste - Taylor - Maine - - Hultun Adunis Hyctt - - MWIIIF.U I oi ihn I (JI)E.STION. PAGE • r ibc EVIDENCE. Costvay 4L 3G41 to 3C47. 3969 to ,)97J. 3978 ti- .-'yija. 983 to 994. 571 to 885. X 739 to 1745- 1787. 2283. 2.302. 3S9:>- 441. 423. 2254- 3176 to 3185. 332.5. 3358. 338:. 2672 to 2673. 27G0. A statement 3»57 'o 317c- 3301. 3321. 33'^3 3359- G27. 33.59- 73j. 7;3''- 3011. 3012. 30S1. 3110 to 3H7- COS, GG9. 312.V :)«83. 3049. 3",>i>. A statement 4303. 434;i. 4347' 4327- 421. 432. 593. G06. 1055 to 1057. 1148. 1152. uGi. 1213. i2ig. 1563. 1568. 1,587. 1G23. 1730 to 1732. 2090. i!092. 2248, 2249. 53(i.5. 2373. 2374- 3S73. 3874- 3893 350— 331- 388. 389-390. 124—12,';. 4:5 to 431. C4-GJ. 82. 183. 191. 239—241. 32,0. 74. 235. 310- 320. 3-2'i. 324- 2G1. 2G8. 373- 277 to 279. 308. 310. 318. 320. 3'^o. 322. 8G. 95- 9fi- 293- 297- 299. 3U0. 90. 300. 3i<^. 295. 29G. 200. 444- 4J'. 452. 449' 129. 138. 1.39- 142. >43- 1-1, 17«- »72. »73- 175. 181. 219. 23'4- 251. 380. 382 (conliii licH.) , I i I H S'! Itl irf, 6^6 INDEX TO THE PRINCIPAL MATTERS DETAILED IN THE pniNClPAl, IIKADS. EMIGRATION ; respecting the disposition or Irisli proprietors to contribute part of the expense necessary to aid. WITNESSES. imall landholders and labourer!) in Ire- land disposed to repay anv loan, and to furnisli some portion of the expense to aid. ' Parochial assessments deemed to be the most expedient and equitable mode of contributing the necessary funds in Ireland to aid. . difficulties attending a plan of contribu- tion, by annuities, in Ireland. - the sums annually voted for the employ- ment of pauper labourers, bounties, and hospitals in Ireland, might be be- neficially transferred, to defray the expense incurred in carrying on. - respecting the disposition of Scotch landed proprietors, lO assist in aid of. disposition of Scotch poor to repay the expense of their. to America, and the British Colonies ; now going on in an unregulated and desultory manner. O'Oriscoll Brown Bodkin Wilson - West - - Vandeleur L. Foster Murphy - - Blake • - - Stanley • - Tighe - - - Marshal - - O'Driscoll - Wilson - • I,. Foster - - Murphy - - J. M. Marshall In a Communi- cation tleiivered in by Spring Rice, Biq. M.P. Wilson - - NUMBER ofllK QUESTION. details respecting former experiments in, from Ireland to Upper Canada, under the direction of Government. L. Foster Rice - Parnell Foster & Little Arch. Campbell Kennedy - - Drummond Maxwell - - Northhouse Alex. Campbell Hunter Foster & Little Tail & Wilson Alex. Campbell Northhouse - Foster & Little Buchanan • - Northhouse - Homewood Wilson - - L. Foster - - Murphy - - Bradbury - - Fitzhugh - - Cosway - - Beeeher - - Hunter - - Robinson • - PAGE ufthc EVIDENCE. 1031. 27JC. 2741 to 27511. 2804. 2622 to 2636. 3008 103015. 3068 to 3070. 3084 to 3094. 3128103135. 315910 3176. yi85. 3559 to 3563. 3579 to 3581. 3953 to 3955- 4369- 4395, 4396. 4«f)() to 4301. 4309. 4310. 4214, 4315. 1036 to 1038. 3059. 3564- 3944- 4317. 3019. 3569 to 3578. 4317- 4346. >34, 135- 193 to 195, 227. 250. 633. 634. 779- 781. 1750, 175>> 759. 1760, 1761, 1766 to 1773, 1849. 2928.2931.2933. 2938. 2947. 2973- 109 to iig. 139 to HI- 787 to 800. 1749- 684. 705. 2 to 7. 824. 869 to 872, 884. 637 to 639. 1654 to 1667. 3060 to 3065. 3560 to 3562. 3927 to 3937- 1230. 2138 to 3151. 3892- 4136 to 4128. 2907 to 2959. 3600 to 3701 . 4347 to 4356. 136. 270. 372, 273. 376. 265, 36C. ags. 294- «97- H97. 298. 300, 301. 308 to 310. 337. 338- 34». 387. 457. 461. 441. 443. 445- 4i'9- 128. 296- 338. 386. 410. 377 to 379, 394- 339, 340- 446. 45a- 5>- 56, 57- 60. 63. 87. 99- 184. 187. 188, 189. 199- 388. 289. 290. 50, 5». 5'i- 104, 105. 184. 9> to 93. 45- 107. 110, 111. 87. 178. 296. 337- 385, 386. 143- 333. 382. 400, 401. 287. 289. 344 to 357- 413 to 431. EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION. 637 PRINCIPAL HEADS. EMIGRATION ; if the expeiiae of, could be de- frayed by the production of the Enii- grimt, nu objection could be mude tlicrcto. an unregulated or desultory, would at first be injurious to the Itriiisli C'ulonirs; und if directed towards the United States, would be the source of ten)' porary misery to the Emigrants. practical ciects of the removal of a few paupciS ni relieving the poor rates, by u system of. the expediency of a regulated system of, from Ireland. from Ireland, must be accompanied by other measures, to relieve the distresses of the country. to the British Colonies ; advantageous to them, and to the Parent State. public opinion, in the Colonies, favourable to a regulated, but ciot to a desultory system of. becomes a necessary means of relief, when the population of any country is redun- dant, and is then a national object. of Irish labourers into Great Britain a judicious system of, one of the most powerful means to accomplish the im- pi'ovement of Ireland. EriIGRATION SOCIETIES; those in Glas- gow, send some of tlivir members to the Emigration Committee. others, amounting to 8,500 individuals, appoint a person in London to lay their case before the Select Committee for Emigration. entertain sanguine expectations of getting aid from Government to settle in Upper Canada. many of the members having relations in Upper Canada. -^— — their attention had been called two years ago to Emigration, as a mode of reliev- ing their distresses. those of Ayrshire and Balfr«n send their petitions to Parliament. statements of their dcputiei confirmed by a Member of Parliumen|^ 550. WITNESS^a. NUMBER of the Q1J£>T10N. Molthui Moody Ilomcwooil Hunter - Dixon Wilson Malthus • Rice - • Tighe - Blake - Stanley Wilton L. Foster Tighe - Rice - Malthus Robinson Strachan Malthus ' Dixon - - Bodkin - - Malthus - - Strickland J.M.Marshall Kice - - . Parnell - - Tighe - - Ehnorc - - Malthus - • Foster U Little 3378. 388. \Grfi to 1685. •iiyitj to aiijS. 2072, 2073. 31244 to 3349. 3310. 3433- 3394 to 3397. 3434- 43'^5- 4f!()f) to 4499. 4385 to 4387. 4395. 2672. 3176103185. 4299 to 4300. 4320. 3244 to 3249. 3293 to 3300. 3360. 3434- 3631 to 3638. 3644 to 3(570. 3967. 3968. 3423, 3424. 2498. 2800 to 2809. 3214 to 3224. 3,-,22 to 3555. 4239 to 4245. 4325 to 4327. 4347 to 4352- 4306, 4307. 4412. 4432. 3424 & 3434. NorthhousR • | 637 to C39. Arch. Campbell Northhouse - Foster & Little Kennedy - - II. H. Druiiitiiuut! Arch. Campbell 4L 3 208. fiai, 652. 5- 221. 247. 219. PAOE of tlia EVfbKNCE. 317. 73. 178, 179. 288, 289. 2G1. aG8. 3>4--3i5. 319 to 3«7' 32.5. 327- 448. 441, 442. 459. 461. 268. 310. 442, 447- 3>4. 315. 318. 3*3. 327- 350. 35 >. 353. 353i 388. 327. 258. 275. 276. 312, 313. 334. 337- 411. 448. 449. 45-. 453. 445- 465, 4C6. 327- 45- 87. 57. 88. 4o- 59- 62. (continu$d.) ll! J** 1 .. 1 V \ ■ ■1 m "i H i,"' £38 INDEX TO THE PRINCIPAL MATTERS DETAILED IN THE PRINCIPAL HEADS. £MipRATION SOCIETIES in Scotland, com- |)oaed chiefly of weavers tlirown out of employment; and in Rcnfraw alone consitt of 5,000 persona. EMIGRATION BOARD; recommended to be formed in England, to communicate with similar establishments in the Co- lonies, EMPLOYMENT; the delegates from Glasgow state it to have been impossible for them to find any, at the time of their distress, so as to give them wages equal to the expense of subsistence. —— weavers in Glasgow did apply for other occupations, but were refused. —— in parts of Sussex exhausting crops arc taken from poor land that the parish pauper labourers may be provided with, ESTIMATE of the expense of passengers for Srovision and [,ai",ige, from the United [ingdom to British Provinces in North America. to the Cape of Good Hope - . - from Ireland to the British Colonics to New South Wales . - - - of the expense incurred by labourers for their passage from Ireland to Great Britain. of the actual income, expenditure, &c. of hand-loom weavers. Vide WAGES. of the expense of subsistence of the labouring poor. Vide SUBSISTENCE. ^— of the expense of locating a pauper emi- grant in the British Colonies. . expense in locating a pauper on waste lands in Great Britain. expense of a dwelling necessary for each family of settlers iu England. FARMS ; in Ireland, are generally very small - WITNESSES. Arch'Camiibcll Aie3(' Campbell Northhouse - Francis - • Pringle • - Buchanan Foster & Little Northhouse • Arch'Campbell Foster & Little Moody - - Foster & Little Northhouse - Homewood - Hunter • - Fitzliugh - • Francis • - Carlisle - - Buchanan Robinson - - Clement - - II. II. DniiuiiiuiiU Northhouse - Moody • - Northhouse - Huntun - - Moody - - Turner - - Northhouse - O'Driscoll - Smith . . - Burrell - - Bradbury La Coste - - Taylor - - Homewood - Maine - . - Fielden - - Hulton - - Dixon - - - Wilson - - Bodkin - - Hunton - - Robinson - - Buchanan Couling - - Wills - - - Cosway - - Tredgold • ; - Bodkin - ; - Strickland j Stanley NUMllKIt of the QUESTION. 703. «33>- >3!)>. >39«- G. 145 K> >47' ()44. 182. 34. 35. 584- 133- C77. iCfi4to 1C68. 2()8G to 3000, 2182. 2184, 2201. >5«5- 4353- 816 to 822. 3614. 4085 to 4087 to 4092. 275- 741. 74S- 305- 315- 305 to 3 1 7- 5S7 to 588. 430. G60 to GG6, 743. 744- 1017. 1053 to 1055. >H9- 1215- »559 to irfii. 1620. 16CG. 1701, 1702, 2017. 2021. 2082. 2473 to 2490. 2C21. 4C39, 2734- 2833 to 2843, 3G04 to 3619. 4398- 372C, 384.';. 387C. 4020. 2794. 2795' ;)4!W to 3r)04. 439'. 4392. PACE of tlic EVIDENCE. 183, 93. t4y. >.5;i- 433. 434- 45- 5«- 55- 47- 84. 51- 90 178. 291, 292. 226, 227. 169. 453- loG, 107. 201. 455. 347. 348- 396- 64. 96. GO, 67. 100 to 104, 285 to 287. fiC, C7. 9G 74- 89. 90. 100 to 104, 12G. J 29. 138. Hi, 171. 174. 178. 180, 213. 218. 25t>. 257- 265. 267. 27!, 280, 347 to 349. 463- 373- 380. 39*- 275. .i!32. 333- 4G0. EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ON EMIGRATION. o«) NUMUCIl PACK PRINCIPAL HEADS. ,t^rrNE.'<, 32 >• FOOD; t'K/e SUBSISTENCE. ESTIMATE, &c. FUEEIIOLDKIIS; those called fnrty-ahilliiig freeholders in Ireland ; thtir condition. a communica- tion made by - 377 to 379. Spring It ice, Esq. M. P. DixoD - - 3473 to 2483 2544 to 3555 2.56, 257. 260, 2G1. Ireland, Wilson - - Bodkin - - West - - - 2(ii6. 2G75 to 2G77. 2738 to 2741. 2753. 3083, 3084. 2C5. 3C8. 371, 272, 273. 297- GLASGOW; viVcCANADAS. EMIGRANTS. EMIGRATION. ESTIMATES. WEAVERS. HEBRIDES; vide DISTRESS. EMIGRANTS and EMIGRATION. HOURS OF LABOUR omongat the hand-loom weavers various, sometimes working 18 hours out of 24; and during one or two nights in the week, working all night, for wages varying from 41. to •jt. Gel. per week. Foster & Little >J- 4G. from 13 to 14 hours a day, in Lancashire, for wages from 4 1. to 5 «. 6 d. a week Hyett - - - 2339. 245- from 14 to 16 hours a day, in Carlisle, for wages equal to 5 >. 6 (i. a week - Hunton - - 2833, 1834. 2P0. Elmore • • 4412. 464. 13 hours per day for 2 d. and 3 a'. ; men Hd. and lod. IRELAND ; the expense at which paupers are maintained in. rWe LABOUR. PEASANTRY of IRE- LAND.^ic. SUBSISTENCE. O'Driscoll - Dixon - - 1017. 2502. I3G. 25a. it would be beneficial to remove able- bodied paupers from. Vide EMIGRATION. O'Driscoll - 1020. 136. O'Driscoll - 1027 to 1034. . distress and disturbance. 1 07. • population of Ireland, and rate of in- crease. Vide POPULATION. the redundant population of, shews the necessity for the interference of the Legislature to carry on a system of emigration at the public expense. Vide EMIGRATION. POPULATION. Parnell - ■ Malthus - - 332 )■ 200, 201. 330. Maltlius - - Parnell - - 334.5 to 3348 434C. and Linen Manufactories of. 32', 322. 452. Wilson - - 261G to 2629 2693 to 2C()G 265. 2Cfi. 269. advantageous results of an improved sys- tem in the management of property in Maltlius - - 3328 to 3333 320, 321. — — low rate of wages of labour in, and the consequences Ihcrenf. Dixon - - Wilson - - Brown - • West - - - Malthus - - Ninmio • - Murphy - - Tighe - - - Parncll - - Elmore - • 2481. 263y. 3012. 2742. 3078, 3079. 3238. 347»- 3905- 4297- 4349- 441a. 257. 267, 293. 271. 297- 314. 330. 384. 442. 452. 4C4. 4 L 4 i . r {cnniimttd.) if 1 G40 INDEX TO THE PRINCIPAL MATTERS DETAILED IN THE PRINCIPAL HEADS. IRELAND ; the want of capital in, to employ the labouring clutiei. how far the introduction of ciipital into, would at present absorb the redundant labourers in ogriculture. Malthus - Multhui little chance of improTcmcnt in, unless a regulated syttem of emigration be eidi- bliihed to remov* the redundant popu- lation. injurious cOectt of living upon potatoes in probable effects of poor laws upon Emigrants from, to the Canadas, aid their \ Buchanan friends to join them. present state of the Emigrants from, sent Robinson out by GoTernment to the Canadas. parts of, exposed to great distress. yiJe CLEAlllNG OF ESTATES. DIS- TUESS. niSTIIUr.ANCES. and PEASANTRY OF IRELAND. WITNESSES. Nt'UDER ufth* gUESTION. L. Foster • Rodkin Malthus • Strickland Malthus - Malthus . Grand Jury levies in, abuses in their ap- plication in some cases, I ' amount of Grand Jury levies in Galway. — ^— from its great natural capabilities, mi^ht be mudu richer, in proportion, than England. — — • advantageous effects of a well-regulated system of emigration from. LABOUR, agricultural, is at times a resource to a manufacturing population, thereby increasing the temporary difficulties of country laboure.'s. agricultural, partly paid out of the poor rates. manufacturing, occasionally paid out of poor rates m England, diminished demand for, in manufacturing districts, the cause of distress to weavers, &c. the introduction of improved machinery has diminished the temporary demand for certain kinds of Wilson - - Wilson - • Malthuii • - Malthus • • Foster & Little Arch. Campbell Drummonu Turner - - Maxwell - - Fitzhugh - - Hunton - - L. Foster - - Turner - - Moody - - - Rradbury - - Burrell - - Moody - . - Turner - - Foster & Little Arch. Campbell Turner - - Northbouse • Tait & Wilson A lex. Campbell Fielden • - Hyett - - - Ilunton - - Foster & Little Moody - - Turner - - . Alex. Campbell Fielden • - IlMiup of riiest?r Hyctt - - - Hunton • • 379i. 3tJo8. 3Jt>(J. 3339- 35 « a- 3301- 33* » to ^343. 3138. 340G to J416. 3«S7. 3U34- 877, 878. 4356. 3039. 3040- 3018 to 3024. 3433. 3358 to 3360. 37- S"- 55- 178. IfJO. 347- 55 >• em. aiyS, a 199. 2848. 3150. 3>54- 552. 587 & 588. 12lC. ISI9. 30510311. 434. 445. 451, to 455- 535- 561 iCo. 163. 183. 4C3. ♦()5- 644 to C()7. 813, 814. 1835- 1962. 1976. 33.'i>- 2848, 2849. 59. 1C5. 168. 369. 370- 427- 544- 17.''A igfi*- 1990- 3371. 2328. 3839. 2846. 2874. 3898. PAGE ol llw EVIDENCE. 308. 375. 276. 316. 331. 334- 316. 318. 320. 314. 32O. 313. 314- 111. 4' 5 to 431. 295- 294- 327- 323. 47- sr). 56. 62. 83. 86. 337. 281. 307. 308. 82. 84. 143. 141. 66, 67. 74. 76. 81, 83. .53- 55. 88. 90. io(>. 198. SO9. 310. 250. 281. 48- 53> 54- 70. 74. 81. 186. 209. 211. 338. 344- 380. 282. 384. EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTER ON EMIGRATION. 641 I'RINCri'AL HEAD!). LADOIJK, the want of demand tor, in maniititc- luring dintricts, inducM weavers and otiiorit to levk for relief in Emigration. of tlic workmen in Great Britain lessened in value, and their conditiondeterioratcd by the influx of Irish poor seeking em- ployment. redundancy of in Great liritnin, the cause of distress, and increaseof poor rates. the redundancy of, and its low value in Ireland, force the poor to seek relief in Umigration to Great Britain, and other placM. WITNESSES. the want of demand for, in Ireland, the cause of distress and disturbances. — Vide DISTRESS. DISTURBANCES. PEASANTRY OF IRELAND, tic. Foster ii Little Northlinusc Fitzhugh - - Diihop uf Cliril«r Ilunton . - Foster ic Little Arch.Campbell Kennedy - - Drummund Moody • - Turner - - Alex, Campbell biiliop of Clifslrr Malihus • - Turner - - Bradbury • - MolthuH - • Arch.Campbell Kennedy • - Drummond Alex. Campbell Parnell . ■ Biihnp of Chc'itfr Dixon - - - Wilson ■ • . Bodkin - ■ L. Foster • • Malthus • • Strickland Murphy Marshall TIghc • Rice M.MDER of thi» gi'tSTION. PACE of lll« evi0i^:nce. its influence upon the manufacturing pros- perity of the nation, when redundant. the importance of the people employed in, ■being in a prosperous condition. ' when redundant in agricultural parishes in England, injurious to the nation. in parts of Ireland, if half the labourers were removed, enough would remain to do the work. when redundant, the removal of the la- bourers who cause it, will improve the condition of those who remain, and thereby lessen the poor rates. low price of, will not force the sale of manufactured goods beyond a certain point. the small farmers in Ireland oflcn pay : their rent by hiring themselves a part of the year to their landlord, or others. Malthus • Malthus - Moody Bradbury - Dixon - - Drummonc* Moody Turner Bradbury - Northhouse Disliop nf Clie»io Malthus - Malthus - Dixon - ■ Strickland Wilson Tighe - 4M (i. 148 to 151. t^as. 63!). 'iyB. 4841), J 8 JO. Cuj. 18,5. 187. aji), ■Jji). 143. 551. J71, ^71. ;)4:i. .144. 46"' 5;i7. .158. '■75. 1787. 'ilS.-), 3384, a'ii4 to :)2i8. 3a»3. .13!>4. 34i'- .'ill- l!3l(i to ISI8. ili). 23 3801. 380J. 3>84. 3314 to 3337. 33i«3- 33i)4- 3396. 35a4. 3533. 3539- 3558. ,3900,3901.3937 4317. 4340 to 4345- 4306. 4336 to 4339. 3381 to 3491 . 3381. 3393. 581 to 584. i3iG to 1318. 3531. 370. 331. 431. 1318, 1319. 630. 6y8. 2383. 3259 to 3361. 3374. .3381. 3379, 3380. 2480. 2489. 3.522- 3641. 4391 to 429s- 45- .^«. 53- 87. 33, »39- 48. Co, (ii. 08. 77- 83. iSy. 191. !»39. *4"- 3i3> 3>J' 3io. a«-- 7y- 143. 3'j- 60. (i4. 189, 190 3UI. 4.)'-'- 35t.'. 2(i7. 275, 87G. 3«o- 3>A 3»3- 320. 3«5- yj4. 335- 383- 385- 410. 411. 445- 449> 4,5"- 3>7. 3t8. 317. 3I"- 142. '99. ■^o'J- 04. G-. 74. 143. 88. 93. 315- 3»6, 317. 3«7- «57- 334- 3C7. (continued.) V f Ct^i INUKX TO THE PRINCIPAL MATTERS DETAILED IN THE PHINCIPAL lltADS. r I' < LABOUR : duration of, cxctMive, vule HOURS OF LABOUR. Wcavcri nnd other* loting their ordinary emplovnicnt in, ore not ablu to get work in other temporary occiipationi. — i^— demand for, in the Britlih Coloniei wrrMussB), Foiter & Little Hunton • Kubinaon 8truchan Cnrliilc Clement LAND ; lalei of, to lettlera on the principle of payment by annual initalinenti. Vide CANAbA COMPANY. RESERVES OF LAND FOR THE CLERGY. Barnard Inglit Mount lyttem followed in parti uf Ireland, on granting leaiei of. wante, the quantity and comparative fer- tility thereof in the United Kingdom, with ettimatei of expense for locating pauperi thereon. opinion* a* to the probabilitv of culti- vating waite, by pauper labourer*, ao a* to repay the expenae incurred, and without increasing the evilaofa redun- dant population. abundance of fertile, in the Colonies un- appropriated and applicable to the location of Emigrant*. present *tate of the land recently *ettled by Irish pauper Emigrant* under the direction of Government in Canada. node of settling in Canada - . • the cultivation thereof, by free labourer* at the Cape of Good Hope, is not pro- fitable to the capitalist, from the high rate of wage*. quantity of, necessary to be granted to each pauper Emigrant in Canada. LANDLORDS; in certain English parishes, would find it their interest to contribute to the expense of removing their re- dundant able-bodied paupers to the British Colonies. and in Ireland Weaver* in Glasgow inhabit their house* without any present hope of being able to pay the forthcoming rent to. Stanley • Bodkin • Niminu - ^Strickland L. Foster Ciiuling - Will* ■ Tredgold J. M. Marshal Malthu* • Nimnio • Strickland L. Foster Robinson Sewcll Robinson Robinson Carlisle - White - Robinton Marshal Felton • Buchanan Turner . Burrell - Bradbury La Coste Hulton - Adam* - Dixon Paper given in by Spring Kice, Esq. M.P. West - - Foster & Little NlMUEIl u( III! gUKSIION. »45- 148. 81)47. 3(143 to 3()<);|. 3(iH8, iti8<). 3973 to 3U77. 4353. 407(1 tu 4078. 4i(>li to 4ii'j. 4050 lu 40G3, 4itil. 4388 to 435)0. 3804 to 3Hl(). a-iiti to 345'ij. 3483 to 348(). 35y2 to Siyg. 3711 to ayiO. 3801 tu 3845. 4013 to 4041. 4311. 3340 to 3343- 3435 to 3478. 3488 to 341,7. 3597- 4001,. 4011. 4a47' 1441. 1460. 1851. 4250. 4955. 4357 to 43(Jo. 4«75. 4361 to 4373. 4376, 4377. 57«. 1148. 1184. 1188. «»33- 1564, 1565. 3ogo. ioiji, 3348, 3349. 250(5 to 2508. "SIS, i«5«6. 3576. 3584 to 3591. 309«. 15G. i'Al^E afllK CVIUENCC 5i- 381. 3.'i'- 353. M*- 388, 38U. 433- 3'J3. 3!>7. 3U». 303. 394- 40G. 4C0. 976, 377. 3»43- 171. S19. 234- 3,08. Sj9. 3(i3. 363. 377, 978. 31,8. 53- * EVIDENCE HKIORE SELECT COMMirrKi: ON I "I9Ra ( .1'''.)H- 4U07, 4- <97«. '!)73. 1981- 9137. 15. 30, 39. 9031), 9040. 17.16. 58. 5(). 74- 984. 394 to 398. 653. C54- 9899. a8(i6. 9goG. 1C3. 3977. 3491 to 3434- 167. 73- 3973 to 3976. 31)81, 328.'. 75- 78- 80. 685. 3J79. 3274- 3.55 10 358. 9198. 345- «4<)' 910. 399. 4O, 47- 914. 9.17- i8tj. 47. 48. fi7, (>8. 88. 980. 989. 984. 4 M 317- 3«7- 51- 48. 3i(;. 317- 48. 31(5. 69. 3]2. {continued.) s II ! \i ;l 644 INDEX TO THE PRINCIPAL MATTERS DCTAILRD IN THE i'RINCII'AL HKADI. MACIIINKKYi lh« improvement of, inuit b« iirogrtuivt, Nntl wilt luptriede the liiuMl-lo<>m. I iacrcnaeil deinond for noodi wove hy piiwcr-looni, would incrcnto the ui« of, rntlivr than rain- llic wtt);i-i of hand- loom weiivrri. — power-luonii iiiiri|iml to rertain rubrickii I the nowcr-luoin iiiunt be nnploycd, or tliK country niiul cvnar to iiiuiiurucluri' lor oilier rutiont. . want or iinnriivcd, in Irelniid, preventt tlie introuuclion of capital to employ lliv poor. , NliMBER »( iIm 4l>:tiluN. Moody Turner Nortlihuuiu • I llttiiion • • lliituip lit ChftU't llulion • • I'otlcr \ Little Miiuily • llunlon - • Moody lliinton - I'oitcr k Little I'ieUli'n Elmore . bettor, mi|tlu liave been introduced into Iri'liind, bud thv money grunted to the Linen llonrd been properly employed. may be kept buck in • country where popiilntion i* rcduiidunt, tax upon, proponed by a Society for licltering the condition of the labouring poor. MANUFACTURK8; rendered clicaper to the uoniumer by the introductioii of power- loom mnclimery. — ^ rent of land paid from tlic wugm received hy pertoni employed in, rather than from the produce of the land. — — ilatc of the population employed in, in the dincetie of Cbonler. i cheap labour in nccej«ary to, and the loii of ingenioui or tkilied workmen ii injurioui to their proipcrity. _ ^ when demand for, ariiei, there exiita a power tu increflM! the meani of pro- duction. pertoni in Lancathire and Yorkihire em* ployed in, dciirout to emigrate _ periono employed in, their good conduct under dittreii. increased quantity of, made from cotton, produced at o leii expenie in wage*. low nricMof, extend their u»c,ondincrca«e their connumptiuti to n certain point. MAUUIAGESi the conicqucnceiof improvident, ought tu be impreiied on the mindi of the poor. MORTG.\GRS ; the pauper Emigrants would be willing to piiti, on their lands and im- pruveni'.'ntii to tecuro the repayment of any loan advanced to them to defray the cxpcntc of their pawage and location. KEW RRUNSWICK ; land in. i« not ao good fl8 in pnrt« of Nova Scotia. -^— — part brit adapted for Emigrant* between the tourceii of the St. .John River and the Mirumicbi, which open* into the Buy of I'undy. Elmore Malthua - • Willi - • FoDter k Little Leslie Foiter Uishop of Cheater. Diihop of Cheater. Alex' Campbell Alex' Campbell Fitahugh - Diihop of Cheater. Ficlden • Fieldcn Malthui Foiter & Little Tait & Wilton Scott - Scott 3fi«. afi4. 4«7. 4.18. (i4tl to 1)48. 1870. aHya. 4'11)- 44»0. 3176. 37yS '-0 3798- »7«- 3148. 3153- 9377. 9181. taCu. 1750. 1761. 1834. 3963. 3316. 1967, 1968. >993- »994' «994- 3371- 3378. 114 to 117. 788 to 800. 244fi. I'Aor. •f lb* eVIDKNCE. 2446. 70. 74. 73- h8. t8i. 2tii. 940. «|8. 54- C7. *h- 'j8u. 70. 3B0. 64. 910. 464. 46O. 3iiiit nli of nrltlrrn, tuwhani turgtt Kniiiin Imvv biTii iiiuilt'. NKW HOVIM WAM:S: ri'roiiimt-n gration of paupers. Vide POOR LAWS. POOR RATES. PARISH VE.STIHES; vide PARISHES. POOR LAWS. POOR RATES. 550. >coti Whilalicr • . Clement • • Alex' Campliell Scott - • - Scott • • • Scott • • - Scott • • - Scntt • • - Scott - • • Scott - - - Scott - - . Scott - - . Turner - - Moody - - Snillh ■ - . Rurrell • . Bradbury • • La Costc - • Taylor - - Maine - - Hulton • • Adams - • Turner - - Turner Smith - - Bradbury La Coste - Taylor - Homewood Maine Hyett - - Homewood Maine Hunter Malthus - 4M3 M Mlllll <•( lk« 40'.24. 170.5 to 1707. 3090. 3094. 3348, 3349. 430. 1 053. 1333, 1334. «559- 1573i •.•a34 to 3938, 3358. i'.\(>lt I r. t.\ l»l> NCg. •51- 301, 301. 3£H. 30»- 184. 154 3.'j3. 353 «54- 353. «53- 0.14- 855. 95c. 74. 75- 73. 83. 83, 8(i. 13(), 1.30. 138. I.»3. «49. 143- 171. '74. >75- 180. 219- 334. 74. 75- 139. >43- 171. '74- 178. 180. 351. 178, 179. 181. 388, 389. 333. {ionlinued.) I r i I if I? / 646 INDEX TO THE PRINCIPAL MATTERS DETAILED IN THE PRINCIPAL HEADS. WHNESSES. PASSRNGKRS ACT; difference of cxpenso to persons emigrating to tlic Hritiali Pro- vinccii, under the lormor, and under tlic present. — — ncceNsity of having (ome security for F.mi- grants, by o. suggestions for forming a new PAUPERS ; able to work, but for wbosc labour tlierc is no effects . demand, arc of no advantage to the country, but may be an expense to the nation. — . desirous to emigrate; state of those in America who were sent from Hcadcorn parish. 08 Emigrants, could only be received in small numbers, if sent casually to Ame- rica or the Canadas. sent from Ireland, by subscription, to Great Britain. sent back from Great Britain to Ireland at the public expense. expense of maintaining them in different parts of the United Kingdom. Smith Homewood Maine Hulton Moody Buchanan Felton Rice - - Elmore ArcM Campbell Moody Alex. Campbell Hulton Turner Moody Northhousc - O'Driscoll Burrell Bradbury La Coste - - Taylor Homewuod ■ Maine Alex. Campbell Hulton Hyett Dixon Strickland Cosway Beecher Tighe PEASANTRY OF IRELAND; wretched con dition of the, for want of employment — Vide DISTRESS CLEARING OF ESTATES. LABOUR, &c. their distress compels them to resort to Great Britain for that employment which they cannot find at home. — Vide EMIGRATION. LABOUR, &c. Buchanan Buclianan Fitzhugh ■ Fitzhugh Malthus NtMBER of llx QUESIIO.V. 8lG to Sit. 825 10871. 3155 to « 17,1. sjiott to 3217. sifia. aifiG. 2311. 2225. 3240 to 3248. PACK or the KVIDENCE. 1058 1C58, 1659. 1713. 3090. 387 876 to 893. 954 to 975. 4326. 441 a. 44<3. 4430, 4436. 211. 348. 178C. 2122. 424. .088. 665, &C. 1017. >>49- »2lfl. 1559- l(J20. 16GC to 16G8. 1701, 1702. 1818. 2082 to 2093. 3366. 2483 to 3490. 3546 to 3550. 3872. 4145 to 41 5G. 4»97- numbers of the, who had means and were of good character, have emigrated at their own expense, while others of the same class desire to follow. their desire to emigrate to the British Colonies. suffer much from their exertions to sup- port the aged aod sick. Fitzhugh Dixon Wilson Dixon Wilson West - Foster Murphy Marshal S. Rice Stanley Wilson 2170. 3501. 2G81. 3501. 2682. .3060. 3102 to 3108. 35<»4 to 3.5<'7> 3937 to 3937. 4917 to 4220. 4329 to 4332. 4396. 3034 to 3036. 106, 107. ■07. no. 333. 226. U28. 329. 324. 328, 239. 314. «30- 178. 180. 319. Ti- ll I to 113. 120 to 123. 449- 464. 4G6. .17- 69. 190. 321. 74- 84. 90. 100. 126. 138. 142. 171. 174. 178. 180. 196. 218, 319. «5>- 257. 258. 336. 379- 403. 405. 443. 336. 358. 368. 358. 3C9. 396. ago- 338. 385. 386. 410. 450. 461. »9S- EVll)t:NCF, IIEI'OUE SEMXT COMMlTrRE ON EM (ORATION. 647 inUNCIPAL HEADS. PEASANTRY 01' IRIXAND; in Wcitmeoth, if half the lubuuriiig popuhttioti were removed, enough would remain to do the work. WITNt:SSLS. NUMDKil of the «Ui:STIOV. Dixon Dixon their present state of distress mukcs them i reckless of the consequences of early Wilson marriages. Dodkin Foster their ejection from small tenements, in many cases, the cause of disturbances. Vide CLEARING OF ESTATES. DISTURBANCES. their wretched mode of subsistence.- Vide SUBSISTENCE. — ^^— ruinous eifectx upon the, arising from the failure of the potato crop. — — ^ their peculiar distress, when renting land from middlemen. — ^— the Tithe Composition Act, a great re- lief to the. . resident in the counties of Down, Armagh, and Antrim, less exposed to distress than in other districts, from the accu- mulation of capital invested in manu- factures. — — - in parts of Ireland, subscriptions have been entered into to defray the expense of sending to England part of the pauper. POOR LAWS; administration of, by select vestries. ■ appeals to magistrates in coses of - even a deficient population may become burdenRume, under the present admi- nistration uf. should be amended, with reference to the taxes on cottages, from which paupers have been removed. the severe pressure of, upon certain pa- rishes in England, circumstances attending the, in Scotland, and suggestions for the improvement thereof. inability of the county of Renfrew to raise the sum required to support the number of poor last year, requiring relief. on the introduction of, into Ireland the effect of Emigration on the - the rigid enforcement of the, would, if resorted to, make the poor willing to emigrate. Vide PARISHES. POOR RATES. PAUPERS, &c. 4c. Dixon Wilson Dixon Brown Bodkin Wilson Wilson L. Foster - Elmore Turner Turner Bishop of Chester. Hulton - - Bishop of Chciitcr Malthus - • Cosway • • Bishop of Chester. Foster & Little Kennedy - - Drummond - Alex' Campbell Alex' Campbell. Wilson Malthus Turner Malthus Burrell 4M4 >53l. 8507 to ssCj) 2689, 3690. 2771 to 2774. 3'77- 317!)- 3473 to 3490. 2529 to 3,543. 355G to 2,5()l, 3658 tu 3UG8. 2j02. 3.-,93. 2730. *739. !'740- 3003, 3004. 3031, SOS"' 3>47 tu3'50- 4413 to 4414. 49 1 • 493- 573- 495. 93'9. «3So- 3133. 2308. 3352 to 3357. 3873 to .3883. 3263 to 3365. 89. 243- 36b'. 1750. 1771. '779 to •787. »75» to 1754. 1819. «835. 3034- 3038. 3227 to 3334. 421, 422. 3251 to 3358. 3361 to 3376. 3382. 1183. I'AUE ofihe fa'idk.nce. !»S9' 169. '•'74. 310. 356, 357. 360. 361. 3(J7, 268. 358. 2C3. 271. 271, 272. 393- «94- 307. 4C4, 465. 78. 88. 78. 343. 332. 343. 3«5- 380, 38 X. 337. 49- Ci. 64. 184. 189. 190, 191. 185. 196. 198. ^95- 3>3> 314- 74- 3«5. 3«3i to 324- 140. (eontimied.) F M vl', !( 648 INDEX TO THE PRINCIPAL MATTERS DETAILED IN THE PRINCIPAL HEADS. FOOU RATES ; in some parts of Knglnnd, the rent of pauper cottngCB paid from the. Manufacturers, wlio for their own benefit introduce labourers into a parish, to be made answerable tliat such do not become chargeable upon the. the beneficial effects which a regulated system of Emigration would have upon the. Parishes take care to prevent strangers from obtaining settlements upon the. sometimes applied to the payment of Labourer's wages; viWe LABOUR. contributors to, have lately often become paupers themselves. Irish labourers have obtained relief from the, ill parts of England,. Annual amount thereof in certain parishes compared with the population. WITNESSES. POPULATION ; if a ()orlion of the, were re- moved by Emigration, the remainder would find employment. ■ part of the, in the west of Scotland, must have perished without the. aid of the London Relief Committee. the exchange of an Irish for a native Scotch, would depreciate the moral habits of Scotland. . increase of, promoted by the poverty and degradation of the Irish peasant, to a certain extent. increase of, is greatest among the cottiers in Ireland. increase of, only beneficial when lahoui* call be productively employed. is redundant in parts of England and •Scotland. and in Ireland; vide IRELAND, and PEASANTRY OF IRELAND. increase of, may be restrained by degrees Turner • Burrcll - Maiuu Maxwell Bradbury Homewood Maine Malthuj - Turner - Burrell - La Coste Turner - Hyett - Moody • Hunton - Turner - Moody - Smith Burrell -' La Coste Taylor - Homewood Adams - Bishup uf Clifxter Cosway - Beechcr - Foster & Little Northhouse Drummond Dixon - Bodkin - Wilson - L. Foster Malthus - Blake - Murphy - Blake • Moody • Burrell - Bradbury Hunter - Bodkli. Malthus NUMDEK of (lie QUESTION. 503, 504' 1197. XUJQ. >7>9- 63G. 1235 to 1337. 1681. «703- 32.51 to 3257. 3361 to 3376. 3382. 441. 521 to 5*3 1183, 1184 »>95- »599- 498. 2350- 346 to 348. 3864, 38(i5. 417- 300, 576. 1048. 1146. 1575- 1C13. 1664. 224(1. 2363. 3867. 4132. 4134. iGi. 68C. a5>i «5«- 374 to 378. 2567 to 2570. 2771 to 2774. 3688 to 2690. 3177 'o 3>79- 3400 to 3404. 4377- 3948 to 3950. 4386, 4387. 581, 582. 1147- I4i6, 1217. 2939- 2758. 275!). 3324 '<> 33^7- 3393. PAGE of Ike EVIUENCE. 79- HI- 181. 87. >43- 179- l8u. 315- 3«0. 324- 324. 70. 80. 140. 141. >73- 79- 249> 250- C8, 69. 28.t. 73- C6. 83. 129. 137- 172. >74- 178. 234- 237- 378, 379- 403. S3- 9«- 63- 64. 2()1. 274- 969. 3>o- 3'5. 326. 458. 387- 459- 84. 138. 142. 289. "7,1 320. 3«5- EVIDENCK RF.FORE SFXr.CT COMMITTl'r, OX r.Mir.RATIOV. 040 miNCIPAL HEADS. POPULATION, under the present want of ca- pital in Ireland, a thinning of the, eBsentially necessary, previous to the introduction of agricultural improve- ments in that country. . the amount of, in Ireland ... the amount of, in England, Scotland and Wales. in some parts of Ireland, has doubled in 30 years, and is still encreasing. probable effect of the rapid increase of, upon the labouring classes of Great Britain and Ireland. when the labouring portion of, exists be- yond the demand for labour, the general situation of the labourer is deteriorated even by a very small excess, and a tax is thereby imposed on the conmiunity. the encrease of an English, in the Colo- nies, would afford valuable markets for the manufactures of Great Britain. ' ratio nt which the, has been encreasing in England between 1811 and 1821. ' ratio at which the, has been encreasing in Ireland at different periods. tlie excess of the numbers of those who labour beyond the demand, i^ the prin- cipal cause of distress in parts of Great Britain and Ireland. no state of things can justify the perma- nent misery of the labouring. the excessive pauper, in Ireland, the cause of breaches of the law ; vide DISTURBANCE. the improved condition of the, in the Island of Uum, in consequence of the ren ovol of a large port by Emigration. rWe EMIGRATION. the interest of the landed proprietors would be materially benefited by the removal of the extra, from Ireland. ■ the proposition relative to, is erroneous, which maintains, that if children were to be born equal in number to the Emigrants removed, there would still of necessity be a redundant population. ' tho conviction of all classes in Ireland is that, should be checked. > the radical cure for the superabundant, must first be in Ireland, where the evil originates. Bodkin Parncll Maltlius Mai thus Dixon Wilson - Bodkin - Malthus - Maltlius Malthus Malthus - Parnell - Maltlius - L. Foster Malthuj Multluis - S. Uicc Hunter Foster Malthus Foster Alex. Campbell Jlisliop of Chcttei the excess of, in any country, is always Malthus to be considered as relative to the ! demand fur their labour. I 550. N MMIUU iif Ihc QL'ESIIO.N. ■1781) to 5799. 3l8y to 3903. 3425, 3426. aCtii). 376'^, 27G3. 3812 to 3224. 3306 to 3310. 323q to 3248. 3'^58 to 3261. 3»93 to 3300. 3350- 33(55- 3447- 3428 to 3431. 3iC() to 3171. 32G-2. 32(34. 3288 to aay:. 3292. 2934 to 2938. :Mr>7. 3389 t" 339;!- 3177- 1774. 1828. 2283. 3431- l'.\GK of llll' t.-»lDKNCf.. 275- 200, 201. 3«i. 312. 327. 250. 86l. '2(>8. 273- 3»2. 313- 3>9- 3H. 315- 318. 322, 323- 327- 200, 201. 327. 309. 31C. 317. 318. 3»8. 277- 288, 2gg. 308. 325- 310. l8y. 197. 239- .327. {continued.) I i UU Gjo INDEX TO THE PRINCIPAL MATTKUS DETAILED IN THE PRINCIPAL HEADS, POPULATION ; when reuundant, prevcnbi im- provL'il systems of cultivuting and nianiiging farms from being adopted. increase of, promoted in Ireland by the state of poverty and degradi'tion of the peasantry. POTATOES; vide SUBSISTENCE. WITNESSES. Moody nice - Martilial Blake - Dixon Wilson Bodkin L. Foster Mai thus Murphy Blake - POWER-LOOM WEAVING; vide WEAVERS. RENT ; the rise thereof caused by the idvance in the price of produce compared with the cost of production, such advance afterwards causing the cultivation of poor soils. — — > the eficct of the introduction of the Poor Laws into Ireland upon. the amount of, how paid in some parts of Ireland. frequently not paid in Ireland in many cases, would be actually in- creased, if u redundant population could be removed from farms in Ireland. RESERVES of LAND in Canada; a con- siderable portion of those belonging to the clergy are under leases. cuuse of the difficulty of obtaining the rent due for the leases of. belonging to the Crown, disposed of to the Canada Company. SAVING BANKS ; have been found more use' ful among the manufacturing poor living in towns, than in places among the hills of Lancashire. SCOTLAND; the weavers in parts of, suffer great distress. ■ the Emigration of a part of the weavers in distress, would afford relief to those who lemsin in. • amount of charitable contributions for relieving the poor in parts of. Vide DISTRESS. LONDON RELIEF COMMITTEE, &c. - inability of the resident gent.y to relieve the distressed weavers in. - defects in the law of settlement in - SETTLEMENTS in PARISHES; labourers from Ireland have in Scotland become paupers, after having obtained. Malthus - Malthus Dixon L. Foster Bodkin L. Foster Blake - Stanley West - Stanley Strachan - Strachan M'Gillivray - Bishop of Chester. Alex' Campbell Hyett - - - Alex' Compbell Arch'' Campbell Alex' Campbell Hyett - - - Alex' Campbell Kennedy - Maxwell - Alex'Campbell Arch"" Campbell Kennedy - - Drumniond - Maxwell - - Alex' Ci\Hipbcll NU.MDER of the yUESTION. 581 to 584. 4300 to 4305, S5C7 to 9570, 2(188 to 3(igo. 2771 to 2774, 3177 to 3179, 3400 to 3404, 3940 to 3950. 4377- 3340 to 3342. 3229, 3230. 2473 to 2491. 3>47 to 3153, 2777 to 278C, 3156- 4379 to 4382, 4394- 3093. 4395- 1121. 1122 to 1131. 23U, 2312. 1735101739. 1749- 2324 to 2326. 1739 to 1745. 185. 193- 197 to 200. 1752 to 1754, 1819, 239 to 346. 630 to C3G. 1788. 200 to 202. 233 to 239. 274 to 278. 630, 631. 1764 to 1766. I /75- PAGE of the EVIDENCE. 84. 278. 408, 409- 457- 361, 269, 274, 3»o. 32/5, sae, 386, 387- 458. 331. 313. 356, 357, 307- 374. 308. '159- 460. 298. 461. 135- 135. 136. 461. 242. 183, 183. 184. S44. 183. 56, 57- 185. 348. 196. Ci, 62. 8(5, 87. 191- 67- 61. 64. 8C, 87. 187, 188. 189. i ! i "f i. ' "11- ^ L : "? EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 0\ EMIfillATION. r>r,i PRINCIPAL HEADS. SETTLEMENTS in PARISHES; labourers from Ireland, and other parts of the United Empire, occasionally become a lource of expense to particular parishes or counties in England, with- out obtaining. — — ~ labourers from Ireland in England, by apprenticeships and other means, have obtained. ■ ' agricultural districts are now more alive than formerly, to the consequences of strangers obtaining. — ^— no reciprocity between the law of, in England and in Scotland. SETTLERS; as Emigrants from the United Kingdom, in the British Colonies. Vide CANADA. CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. EMIGRANTS, &c. STATISTICAL DETAILS; shewing the nirm- ber of persons forming Emigration Societies in Renfrewshire and Lanark- shire, who have petitioned Parliament for aid to enable them to remove to the British Provinces in North America. Vide Appendix, for Petitions from persons desirous to Emigrate, but now residing in England, Scotland and Ireland. ___ county of Renfrew dependent for aid on the Committee for the Relief of the iinemployed Operatives. shewing the receipt and expenditure of the Committee of the county of Ren- frew appointed for the relief of the unemployed Operatives in 1S27. — — respecting the income and expenditure of the hand-loom weavers chiclly, in ' different parts of Great Britain, prior to February 1827. I respecting the number of houses occupied by different descriptions of poor per- sons in the several townships of the paridh of Wilmslow, in the county of Cheshire. _— respecting the number of unemployed weavers in Lancashire, Yorkshire, Wilt- shire, Gloucestershire and Scotland. . respecting the paupers, whethc. agricul- tural labourers or otherwise, in different parishes in England : Shipley, in Sussex ... West Grinstead, in D° - -"J Pulborough, in D" - - -J Smarden, in D* • Oundle, in Northamptonshire Chertsey, in Surry . . - Feltham, in Middlesex Headcorn, in Kent ... Bilsington, in D° - - . Mildenhall, in Suffolk - Carlisle, in Cumberland Southwell, in Nottinghamshire Thurgerton, in D" WITNESSES. Moody - - Ilulton • - Ilunton - • Turner - - Huuton - - Turner - - Burrell - - Hulton - - Hunton • - Kennedy - - Arch"" Campbell Northhouse Arch' Campbell Alex' Campbell Arch'' Campbell Moody Northhouse Hunton Turner Hyett - Moody Burrell Cosway - Smith - - La Coste - Taylor Homewood Cosway Adam - - Hunton - Bcecher - D" - - 4N .NU.MIU.U (ittsTION. 347. 348. 3I17,'2IU.!224'. 28G4, 2865. 474 to 477. a8()3. .559- •'04, >195- S10!l to 3105. IQO4, 2905. 345- C38, 039. 1B5. 1754- 217. 2g6 to 315. 333, 334. 359- 361- 576 to 582. 587 to sgo. 3392- 1048 to 1054. i.'isr, to 1589. l(il2 to 1G20. 1G55 to 1692. 3867 to 3883. 2.24C. 2831 to 2843. sSfi.j. 287C. 2893. 4132. 4134. 4138. 4144. to 4146. I'AGE of III.- KVII)i:S(.T.. 69- 221, 222. 282. 7/. 78. 281. Si. 141. 220. 384. Gl. :n 54> 55- 87. 5C. 185. C5 to G7, G8. 69, 70. 100 to 104. 285 to 287. 182. 245 to 24S. 83, 84. 84. 13G to 138. 382, 383- 129. 171. '73- 174. 178, 179. 378 to 381. 2.'}4- 280. 282. 283. 402. 403. 404. (conliniieri.) H 'I I: K 65« INDEX TO THE PRINCIPAL MATTERS DETAILED IN THE riUNCH'AL HEADS. V STATISTICAL DETAILS; exhibitinR n plan for the rupnyment of provisioiii' fur- nislied to tlic Emigrants in Canada, nfter their arrival at the place of lo- cution. ■ D' - for the Cope of Good Hope exhibiting instances of pauper Emigrants having accumulated considerable pro- perty in a short period at the Cape of Ciood Hope. — D" - for Canada ... - ^— ^— shewing the price of labour in Cape Town at the Cape of Ciood Mope, • D* - in Van Diemen's Land D* - in New South Wales - — ^— relative to a property in the County of Mayo, with the rental thereof. D' - in Kerry ..... D" - in Limerick .... D" - in Westmeath . . - . relative to the Islands oi" Uum, Tiree, South Uist, Bcnbicula and Coll, form- ing part of the Hebrides. relative to victualling Emigrants on the passage from Cork to Quebec. shelving the estimated value of the pro- duce of pauper labourers, in Novem- ber 182G, who had been located in Canada by Government, in 1825. respecting the territorial surface of Great Britain and Ireland, and adjacent Is- lands ; exhibiting the quantity of cul- tivated land, of waste land capable of cultivation, and of all other kinds unfit for the production of grain, vegetables or grasses. ■ the estimated extent of the bogs of Ire- land. - shewing the computed expense of locating a pauper family on waste, or good un- cultivated land in the United Empire. - shewing the prices of wheat and rate of spfvants wages, as settled by the mr.gistrates in Kent and Gloucester, in 1732- - exhibiting a scale of provisions for a mechanics' family of four persons in New South Wales ; the proportionate numijer of different tradesmen recom- mended to be sent thither, and the pre- sent rate of wages. - respecting the tonnage of shipping en- gaged in the timber trade between the United Kingdom and the British North American Provinces, with an estimate of the expense of the passage of a pauper English, Scotch and Irish Emi- grant. Fclton Buchanan Francis Carlisle - Ihompson Robinson Eaton ... Barnard - • Clement - - delivered in by Spring Rice, Esq. a member of the Committee. - D» - Stanley - • Tighe . - - Hunter - - Robinson Robinson '5H. FAOE of the EVIDENCE. Couling L. F'.iiter Couling Wills - Wright Clement Buchanan 188a. 1941 to 1943. 4107 to 4113. 43!i8. 4394 'o 439<>- 4386 to 4393. 3933 to 3936. 3943 to 3950. 3960 to 3963. 3906.3972. 3973 3981. 3985. 3Ci4. 36a >• 37"- 359a- 3736. 3845- 4113. 167, 168. 301, 303. 169. 303. 305. 304. 4>5 «o 43>- 307 to 30S. 306. 397. 398. i^9, 379. 449. 450. 460, 461. 440 to 441. 388. 889. 389, 390. 390. 391. 347. 348- 349. 350. 358 to 361. 343. ■ 3C3, 364- 373. 374. 376, 377' 398. 455- I-VIDENri: BF.roHF. sr.LKCT COMMirrKK ON KMIfJUATION. 6s.( PRINCIPAL HEADS. STATISTICAL DETAILS; exhibiting an es. tinmte of the cxpensu of locating n pauper funiily from Ireland in Canada. SUB-LETTING OP LAND IN IRELAND; the interests of the landlord and mi:l- dlemau therein. . ■ policy of the common law respecting I Act against; is beneficial to the occu- pying tenant. the provisions of the Act against - eperationi of that Act with respect to existing leases. Act against, gives full power to the land- loruf to prevent the subdivision of the land. ■ Act against, by preventing sub-letting, many persons who formerly held land are thrown out of employment. proposed improvement in the Act agBin.;i . Act against; will often be inoperative without a regulated system of Emi- gration. > difficulty of enforcing the provisions of the Act against, with respect to exist- ing contracts. SUBSISTENCE ; the value of the labour of the poor influenced by the cost of. of a weaver in Glasgow, in 1815 - D° - - - in 182G - . of the Irish in Glasgow, is very miser- abi-!. of the Irish in Glasgow, is chiefly po- tatoes. of the Crofters, in the Hebrides, at pre- sent consists chiefly of potatoes and a little oatmeal. — ^— D° • of the tenants in certain parishes of Westmeath. of the Em.grants during their passage, and upon their location in the colonies. — of a mechanic's family in New South Wales. of the labourer, should be of a superior quality of food. when the labourers are fed on cheap food like potatoes, as in Ireland, the increase of population is promoted by the faci- lity of obtaining. D* - in New Spain, according to Hura- bolt. ■ estimate of the expense of, for paupers . in Ireland. Vide PEASANTRY IN IRELAND. . D° - in Scotland . - . . Firfe SCOTLAND. SETTLEMENTS. 550. WIT.VESSES Buchanan L^ixon I'odkin - I'lake ■ - Blake - - Dlake • - Blake - - Bloke • • Blake - • Blake - - Rice - • - Murphy - - Rice - - . Foster St Little Northhouse - - D" - - D' Alex. Campbell Himter - - Tighe - - - Buchanan Felton - - Francis - - Robinson - - Clements - - Malthus - - Malthus - - Malthus - - O'Driscol Dixon - - - Northhouse - Hunter - - 4 N3 NUUDRR uf lh« yLBSriDN. 4397. 4398- «5!)6. «5.97- •J74g. U747. 4381. 43C0. 43C4. 4355- 4356. 43G0. 437«- 4375- 4384. Sgtio. 3968. 43»«- 43'5- 84. 85. 738 to 748. 1790. 4J90. 4398. >514- 3C13. 3C14. 4112. 3*37 to 3439- 3290. 3406. 3^03. 3204 to 3026. 1017. 950a. G60 to 666. 3960, 3g6i. 2973- PAGK. «f 'tie EVIbkNCC. 463. 464- 2«i4. 27'i. 459. 457- 45fJ- 4363. 3668. 368 3138. 301 9734. 3739. 371 3740. 373 3059. 396 Buchanan Robinson Robinson Robinson Moody - - Moody - - Tait & Wilson Moody • - 3837. 3308. 3875 to 3886. 4334. 6«9. C36. 3371. 33<5o. 3068. 1774. 379C to 3798, 3075- 3670'. 3688. 3689. 369510 3701. 387, 388. 304. 801. 395. 408. I'AliE of tb« EVIDENCE. 380. 343. 380. ,^83. 450. 86. 87. 316. 323 396. i6y. 369. 4,'i5- 354- 354- 365- 71, 73. 73. 105. 73i 73- i'****** iftufintrii EVIDENCF, nr FORE SCLKCT COMMiriRE ON MMICK ATroN 655 M MliEU f'AOF. i'RINCIPAL HEADS. WITNESSES. of lll« >/llM yUESllON. EVIDENCE. UNITED STATES, many Irish EmigranU often ultimately settle in Canada, who work •omc timoon the new roadu and cannia now making in the. Moody - • Fi'lton - • Weatherley • .19"- yG.) to .,63. Uy4 «u 997- 72. lit. \irj. — ^— there are laws requiring lecurity to be given that foreign Eniigranti, without capital, should nut become chargeable in New York. Moody - - Buchanan 409- 875 to 877. 73- 111. the most miserable part of the white population of the. Moody - • 401. 73- the. Moody - - Fielden - - 403- 19G8. 73. 21U. ' the power-loom for manufacturing cotton goods is much employed in the. Moody - - Fielden • - 405, 40t>. 1969. 73. 310. VACUUM made by the Emigration of part of the )opulation from Great Britam, will he filled up by tlie influx of Irish la- bourers. Arch-" Campbell Kennedy - - Drummond • Moody - - Turner • - Alex' Campbell Bishop of Chester Malthus • • 319. 228, 329. 245. 3,50 to 25G. 272 to 283. 343. 344- 474. 475- 1763 to 17C4. 2283.2289,2290. 3214 to 3222. .08, 59- Gi. 62. C3- C4, 65. 68. 187, 188. 339. 340. 3>3, 313. made by the Emigration of port of tlie population, Means exist in Great Bri- tain to prevent its being filled up. Kennedy - - Maxwell - - Burrell - - Alex' Campbell Malthus . - 343- 639 to 63G. 1184 to 1187. 1774. 1788. 3a57- 3361 to 3378. 62. 86, 87. 140, 141. 189. 191, 315. 3«3- 334. it is the interest of the landlords in Ire- land now to remove their redundant tenantry, and to take care that measures arc adopted to prevent the filling up of the. Dixon • - WiUoa - - Bodkin ■ - L. Foster - - Malthus - • nice . - • Blake - - - 3584 to 2589. 3594. 3595. 2C74. 2748. 3758. 37G8 to 2793. 31 Go to 3166. 3231 to 3251. 4.320 to 4323. 4370 to ^1378. 263. 364. 2G8. 372, 273. 374. 375. 308, 309. 313 to 315. 447, 448. 458. VAN DIEMEN'S LAND ; proposed to receive Emigrants in. Bernard & Dcauvais Inglis - - - 4050 to 40G2, 305 to 307. 394- WAGES of hand-loom weavers working from 12 to ?') hours, by the piece, from 4*. 6(/. to 7 (. per week. Foster & Little 15. 4C. - D° - 34. a*). kinds of work from, ^g, to (U. per week. *»-'• • * n jJ nAH ■■•iinlr *liA n\tamiwa natt nnrn'nivc D" - >53- 53- Drummond - 347. 63. 6 s. per week. — — working 12 to 14 hours a day, the nett average are from 4;, to js. per week at Blackbarn. JMoody - • 359- 69. ■ nett average, 5s. Gd. per week for the first rate; 3s. nd. for the second rate, and 3j. 7jrf. for the third rate. Hunton - - 3833. 2893. 280. 283. Turner - - Hyett - - 463. 3339- 77- «45. rage wages 41. to 5s. 6d. per week. — - working in Glasgow 16 hours a day ss.Bd. per week, and with a family of five persons, $5. (id. to 6s. per week. Nortlihouse - G87. 688. G90. 9«, 92. {continued.) * I II .'.^ti 4N 4 ^.-? ^*-*, 660 iNnr.x TO Tnr, principai. mattf.rs detailfj) in the PHlNCiPAL IIKAm. WITNK.SSF^. WA(jES have comu to the ■mallcttiuni at which the Weaver can live, from the great number of lobourera, and therefore cneap food wouhl benefit the einploycri, and not llic workmen. ■ of hand-bom weaveri from 1800 to 1805, were 3ui. a week, and are now 4.t. 6cl. to 5 *. — — of |)erioni employed in |)ower-loom weaving according to their itrength and akill ; young women, j«. 71. B<. and 101. per week ; warpers, d* 10 1. to I3«. d"; warp dresicri, men, ac- cording to their strength, skill and quality of the cloth, 3ui. a^t. 30 <. and 401. a week, — women und children, in coarser goods, obtain from 7 «. to 8 <■ a week. of hand-loom weavers when reduced below the cost up from Foster ft Kittle Fieldun • • Foster ft Little Moody the cost of customary subsistence, made from I'oor Uates m England. ■ suggestions to prevent Poor Rates being charged with a port of. Vide POOR RATES. . in Scotland, unless voluntary benevolence intervene, intense misery must oflen arise from the reduced rate of. - reduced by the competition in trade, and by increased use of machinery, . regulated by the number of nersons applying to be employed, and wnen the a|ipli('antsarc redundant, the rate isfixud sclely at the pleasure of the employers. - attempt made in Cork to establish u minimum of. - Minimum of, proposed to be established by an association in London. - of agricultural labourers in Wilmslow, in Cheshire, 6s. a week, with board ; from IS. 3d. to 2 s. a duy, without board, and by piece work. - pariah allowance to a man, his wife, and 3 children, uould be i-is.Q d. in wages, and from the poor rates. - in Shipley in Sussex, tlic general rate of labour is (]s. a week, excepting hay- time and iiarvest. — if a family be supported by parish allow- ance, 2 /. lis. would be tlip diRerence be- tween that allowance and wagesin a year. — in West Houghton in Lancashire, are 14s. a week. — in West Grinstead in Sussex, los. aweek in winter. — very disproportionate between the manu- fiicturing and agricultural classes, causing the workman in different coun- ties to seek relief under very different rates of wages. — of agricultural labourers reduced by the competition of unemployed weavers. — of cotton spinners higher than cotton weavers, from the liours of labour being longer, and the employment more unhealthy. Fieldcn - - Moody - ■ Turner - . Turner - • Wright - • Foster ti Little Nurthliouse - Foster & Little Moody - - Turner - . Foster & Little Turner - - Murpliy - - Wills - - . Turner - - Turner NlJMIltfl III Ibc gitsTio.v. 97 to lot, 2031. 97. «8. 3G1. Moody Moody Hulton Burrell Bibliop of Chester. 3014 to 3039. 307, 308. .OSS- 545- 549i 550- 561, 5C3. .^.lo- 3847 to 3865. 07 to 101. 041), 650. 99. 88. 355 to 358. 463. 18. 94 to 96. 435. 43<>- 5-9 10 545- 39"9 '0 SO"''' 37S5 to 3795. 3831 to 3845. 533- 53a. 5''7. 5S8. 3130. !>75- 3397 to 3300. Turner MuxwcU - Hunton - - I Alex' Campbell 5>>- 3848. '757- TACiE of I ha KVIDENCK. 40. 30' 813. 4R. 70. 313. 66. 81, H3. 83. 80, 81. 374 to 378- 49. 50- 88. 40. 40 69. 77 4O. 40- ir,- 8u to. 83 384, 385- 3^18, 3<''!J- 373- 81. 81. 84. 84. 323. 140. 241. 70- 86. 381. ^ .r^iSv. EviDENcF, nr,ronK sriEcr coMMirrrr. o\ r,Mir,nATin\. c;,; WAGES in difvrent Britiah Culonici. yim' 3711 to 370y. 3801 to 3845. 4014 to 4033. 4211, 431!I. iC. 359- ,lC»- 97, 38, 54 to 5C 377- 4(34. 13. 41 G. >757- 363 to 368. 9339 to 9334. 54 to 62. 19C3 to 1964. IgC-, to 1971. 1993 to 1995. 2894 to 290(3. i97toi99-2»7- 224, 225- 296 to 301. »7.5« to 1754. l8i8, 1819. ifigs to 1C94. ai37- 550. 4O Co. (;4. OS. 77. 78- 83. 191. 341), 341. 449' 45a. 4j:)- 9»i- 183. 3l.i- 31/ 97G, 277. 3«i, 3 •!■-'■ 328 to 331. 33« to 3,37. 34«- 343- 3.-,8 to 3(,8. 3<>9 to 373. 39' t 393- 4• i. (ii), 70. Northliouie • • • - lou, nil i"3. n»4. llunton • 4837. 9843. •iHo. «8yj. a8;,. • • • - • a ■*9i lu 987. ilycit - 'J.138 to «;)49. 944 to tin. biT ill |iartt ol'liri'iit Itrituin. WELLAND CANAL) will croalo an encrcascd Uobinaon 3fi«8, 3(i8y, 324- tlumnnd (or laliour in Ippcr ('anadn, when cnni|ili'li'il, hy I'uci itnling the ciinvvyiinci^ of iiroiluci* tu market, anil thu clvuring ol' land. * // /. -^-' ■y->--- '.if i- v . r / (.y \ ■ ri%^i ■"^«^>- ..■-jjgggj-T »( I Ik £\IUt.