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OTTAWA : PRINTED BY THE QUEENS PRINTER. 188G THE QXJKEJN VS. LOTJIS RIEL, ACCUSED AND CONVICTED OF THE CRIME OF HIGE TREASOI^. RKPORT OF TRIAL AT Rp]GINA.-APPEAL TO THE COURT OK QUEEN'S RENCII, MANITORA. —APPEAL TO THE PRIVY COl'NCLL, ENCLAM).- PETITION FOR MEDICAL EXAMINATION OF THE c;ONVlCT. LIST OF PETITIONS FOR COMMUTA- TION OF SENTENCE, OTTAWA. OTTAWA : PRINTED BY THE (QUEEN'S PRINTER. 18.SG Nori til .^4>^lU (WVUV I Norlli-\\(s( lViriti)i'ii'\ | S^IPENDIABY MAGISTRATE'S COURT, tin; <,)ri:i;N i.'tris i!ii:l I '/ill I III (I (III II II I iiilirl mini I'ur Jliijli Triunuu. niiili r till .\iiilli \Visf '/'•rri/iirir.-^ Ac/. /,s>''/. Ki:(.i.\.\, 2utli Julv, !>,■<:). Till" ('(.lilt iissfiiililcd 111 1 1 A.M. .Mi;. JrsTici'. IticiiAunsoN.- I have Id aiiiKUiuci' tli,i( Mr. Ilnny IjcJi'UiU' will Lo tlie Associiitt' .J usticc tor tlic a]i]iv(iiicliiiit;' trial ; Ml'. Di.xic Watsnii. flcrk : Wallaces -Maclean, .1. S. .Monaliaii, •laiiirs T. Far]r('C(>[it. Frt'copt liaii(l(Ml hy the Siu'rill'tn tlic rli'i'k wlio I'cails rlif ivdifii ami c-ilU the list ot' .liirors. Ili.-i iroNiiii Ml!. .Irs-iici: IIiciiaiidsmn. The <-li'ri< will (i[hmi ihcC'ouil. ('oui't opened liy the I'lerk'. Mi;. .li'STTCK Riciiakdson. .Mr. Siieritl', will you Iniii!.;' in llie prisoner. Fiisoiier hroUi^lit in and pliieed in tlu^ doek. M |{. .lus'i'K K l*iif'iiAi;i)SOX. l.,ouis liiel. lunc you Imm'u furnished witli a ropy of tlie char/^'e, ot' tlie panel ot' juroi's, ot' the list of witnesses for the ]iroseeution ! Pi;isoM:ii. Yes, your honor. M u, JusTich; Ri( iiAKDsox. .Arraign the prisoner. The elerk rends tlie indietnu'nt, as follows : — Sixth day of July, in the year of Our Ijord ISS."), at tlie Town of lu-i^ina, in the Nort li-W'est Territories. Before nie, Hiii,di Hiehardson. one of the Stipeiidiaiy Magi.strates of ihe Xorth-West Territories, e.xercisiin;- ("riun'nal .lurisdietion under the provisions of the Xorth-West Act, ISSO. Louis IiIKI,, you stand charu'tvl on oatli hefore me as follo-.vs : "The information ami complaint of Ali'xander David Stewart, of tlie City of Hamilton, in the Province of Ontario, in the Dominion of Canada, Chief of Police, taken the sixth day of July, in the year of Our Lord one thousand eiuht hundred and eiylity- tive, hefore the undersigned, one of Ifer Maje.sty"s Stipendiary Magistrates, in and foi* the said NortliAVest Territories of Canada, who .saitli : — " L That Louis Kiel being a subject of Our Lady the Queen, not regai'ding the duty of Jiis allegianc(>, nor having the fear of (lod in his heart, but being moved and seduced by the instigation of the D(nil, as a false tr'aitor against our said Lady the Queen, and wholly withdrawing the allegiance, fidelity and obedience which every true and faithful subject of our said Lady the Queen, should and of right ought to bear tiiwards niir >,iii(l l,i!(ly tlir (^)iii'iii, in tlir vcic at'uirsnid, on iIm' t « int y-si.\tli diiv f)lf -Miu'cli. td.nclliiT w iih (iivfis otlicr talsf trailiirshi tln' said AlivsaiidiT |)ii\ id Stcsviirt, unknown, arnu'd and arrayi'd in a warliki- mannrc, (hat is to siiy, wifli uims, rillcs, pis- tolis, liayonrts and otIiiT \\('ii|ion>>, licin:.; lin'n unla\vt'nli\, nialit'ion>ly and tniitorously asscnddcd and yat In-red toyvt hrr ayanist onr said Lady tin- (Jucin. it tlic lociility knovvii as |)in'k l>akc, in tin' s.iid Norfli Wc-t Tci ritorics of' ( 'anada, and witliin (liis llcalni, and l of oni' >:\\i\ \,;u\\ t he • i'lii'cn find her laws, to the e\il exainple of all other> in the like ea>e oH'milin^, eontrary to the duty of the allcyianee of him the said Louis Itiel, against the form of the stJitutc in siirh ease made and provided, and a'^ainst l he peaee of oiii' Naid l,ady the <^Mieeii, lier ( 'row II and dignity. ••'2. .\nd the said Alexander l>a\id Stewart further :>ai(h: 'i'liat the said Louis Kiel, lieint;' a suhjeet of our l/ady tlie(|>uren, not rei^ardiny the duty of his alleoianee, nor haviiin' the feai' of (iod in his heart, l)Ut liein^; moxcd and sedueed liy the instipitiou of the I )e\ il as a false ti'aitor a,y;aiiist oiii- said Lady the (^lueen and wholly w ithdrawiiiif till' allei^iaiiee, fidelity and oliedienee whieh e\cry true and faithful sulijeet of our said Lady the (.^iieen should and of riylit ouLfht to hear towards our Naid Ijady the <^iieen, on the tweuty-fourtli day of Ajjril in the yenr afoin-said, together with othei' discrs false tiviitors to the said Alexander l)a\id Stewart unknown, armed and arrayed in a warlike manner, that is to say, with L(uns. I'illes, pistols, hayonets aiul other weajions lieini,' then unlawfully, malieiously and traitorously assendiled and !,'atheied toucthei' aj^aiiist our said jjaily the (i)ueeii, most wickedly, malieiously and traitorously did le\ y and make war uij.unst our said i^ady the (,|ueeii, at the loeality known as Fish ("reek, in the said Is'orth-West Territories of ('anada, and within this Realm, and did then malieiously and traitorously attempt and endeavor liy force and arms to suhver'. and dcstioy tin- ( 'onstitution and ( loxciinnent of this IJealm as l>y law estalilished, and depiivc and depose lao' said Lady the <^)ueen of and from the style, honour and kin^dy name of the Imperial ( 'row n of this Lealm. in contempt of our said Lady the (^tiieeii and her law s, to the e\ il examjile of all otiier. in the like case oU'endin,!;-, conti'ai'V to the duty of the alleyiance of him, the said Louis Kiel, a!j;ainst the form of the Statute in such case made and provided and ai^'ainst the peace of our said Lady the (^Jueen. In'i- ( 'I'own and dignity. " ■"). And the said Alexandei' l)avid Stewart furtliei' s.iith; 'J'hat the said Loui.s Kiel, lieiui; a sulijeet of our Lady the ueeu, not ro<;-ar(liii,t;' the duty of his allegiance nor having; the fear of (Jod in his heart, hut lieiug moved and seduced n\ the insti,L;ation of the l>evil, as a traitor against (Uii' said Lady t.'ic Queen, and wholly vv ithdrawinii the allegianc, lidelity and ohedience which every trufi and faithful sul.ject of our said Lady the (^)ueen should and of light ought to hear towards our .said Lady the (^)ueen, on the ninth, tenth, elcscnth and twelfth days of ^^ay, in the year affiresaid, together with other divers false traitors to the said Alexandei' |)a,\id Stewart unkuown,"ai'med and arrayed in a warlike manner, that is to say, with guns, rities, ])istols, bayonets and other weapons l.eing then unlawfully, nuiliciously and traitorously assend.led and gathered togvtther against our said l^ady the (j>ueeu most wickedly, maliciously and traitcu'ously did levy and make war against our said Lady the (^iieen at the locality known as Ihitoche, iu the said NortliAVest Territories of^ Canada, and within this llcalm, and did then midiciously and traitorously attempt and endea\ llir (^>ll(cli, IkM" ( " I. And llic siiid AlcMimlcr I'm id Stewart fiii'tlicr saitli ; That tlir said I.iiuIh Kill, then li\iii!^' viliiiii tlie i 'niniiiiun of (.'auuda and under the jn'oteit ion of out- Liuly (he 'vtiircn. not re;,'ardin;; tlie duty of his alle.s;'innee, nor ha\in,y: the fear of (iod in hi heart, liiit lieiiiti ino\ed and seduced liy the instii^nit ion of the l)e\il iis ■ •'. <> n against oni" said liiidy the (^iiecn, and wholly w itiidrawin;,' tin- alle;niiince, lidelity iind oli'^dicncc which he should and of riji,dit ou;,dit to lieiir towiirds our said fiiidy the t.^ueen, on the t wi'nty-sixlii day of .Marcli, in tlie year afoi'esaid, toi,'ethei' with other (li\crs false tiaitors to the said Alexander l'a\id Stewai't unknown, arn.ed and arrayed in a warlike niiinnrr, (h,il is to say, with ,1,'uns, ritles, pistols, Ixiyonets and other wea|ions, lieinu then unlaw fully, maliciously and ti'aitorously assendded and gathered toii'ether a;(ainsf our said Lady the (^hu'eii, most wickedly, maliciously and traitorously did lc\y and make war against our said Lady the <^Mlee^ at the locality known as Duck Lake, in the said Xoi'th West Territories of Canada, and within this Kealm, and did then maliciously and traitorously attenijit and enileavoi' hy force and arm's to suli\ert and destroy the t^'onstitution and ({ovei'nment of tliis Jiealm as liy law estal>lishe(l, and dejirisf and depose our said Lidy the Queen of and from the style, honour and kindly name of the Luperial Crown of this Jiealm, in • )ntenipt of our said iiady the (^)ueen and her laws, to the e\ il example of ,all others in like case oH'endini,', contrary to the duty of the alle;,'iance of him, the saifl Louis Rii 1, a^Ljainst the form of the Statute in such case made and pro\ ided and au;ainst tlie peace of oui' said liiuly the <,)iu'en. her Crown and di,i,'inty. " •"), And the said Alexander l)a\id Stewart further saith : That the said Louis iiiel, then li\ in,i,f within the Domiiuon of Canada, and under the pi'otection of our said Iiady the (^)ui'en, not re^ardini,' the duty of his alleiriance nor liaviu'^ the fear of (Jod in Ins lieart, hut ltein,LC niovd and seduced i)y the insti,!,'ation of the l)e\ il as a false traitor aj;ainst our .said Lady the Queen, and wholly withdrawini,' the alleifiance, tidelity and oliedieiice wliich he sliould and of ri^ht ou,nht to hciir towards our said fjady the (.^ueen, on the twiMity-fourth day of April, in the year aforesaid, to^'ether with otlier divers false ti'aitors to tlie said Alexander l)a\id Stew.irt^ unknown, armed and ai'rayed in a warlike nianneac(^ of oui' said Lady the Queen, her Crown and dignity. " (). And t]i(> said Alexander Havid Stewart furtliiM' saith : That the said Louis Iliel, then livin,lc nt' utlicis in likr < asr (ilicniliii- iilniiyfn tin- iliitv i>t iillr;iimii'f i.f liiiii. tli.^ said Lmii- Ki.'l. au'.unM tlir f..rm <'t' tin- Statiid- in snrli rasr iniidr miiriirovidi'd. and au.un>t ilir ihm.m- ..t' Om -lid Lid\ tlic ^)mMii. \\,\ < 'mvMi and ili'_'nity. ^Si'^licdj A. h. s'ri'.WAi: r. Sworn iM'fnri- nir, tlif day and yi-ar lirst alioM' j nirntioni'd.at tlir town of IJi'.irina, in tin' N'onli West Tcriilorii's of' ( 'aniula. I (Si-iit'd) m<:il l!l(IIAKI>Si>\, A Stii'iinlidi'ii Mii'jistrnh 111 ,i,hl i',,r III' .\'<,rlli-\\'. xl /'m-r'.-irl's ii/' Ciiim /u. Cl.r.iiK. iiOiii> liii'l, an' yoii guilty or imiI -iiiltv .' Mi;, .iisriri'. liicii aimison. WIki a|i|ii':ir.^ for liio I'lMscfiil ion '. Ml!. ( 'ill!lsro|'iii;i; IJoiilVMiX (). ( '. I apiicar with my icanu'd fl•il•!ld■^ I'.. I'.. ' l-lrr. Q. (,'., <1. NV. I'.urliid!.'"', <,>. <'.. I >. L. Si'ott mid T. <' ( 'av^rain. Mi;. !•'. X. Li'MIKIW. 1 a]iiicar for tlio |ii'isoiiri \\\\\\ Mr. ('Iiarl".- I''il/.|iat rii'k. .1. N. ()l'(HMisliii'lds and T. ( '. •loliiisloii. I Imld in my hand a plea tn 1 lie jip isdict ion of i he Court, sn|i|iortcd iiy tin- usual :il1ida\its, and \\r lia\o a;;r('i'd that Mr. l"'it/|iat rii k shall ai'i'mc that ourt of the case. Will your Honor ho kiml i'noiij;li to have the [irisoiu'r swoar to the allidavit siiiijiort ini;- tin' jilra .' Mr. Ku'llAliDsov. Till" rlci'k may swcir liim now, ,i.s ihr ('omi is ojioii. Artidiivit sworn to liy dii' [Misoncr. ^rit. Fi'l'/i'ATKicK. .May it ])l('iisf yoiir llom.r. I wiil now iirorccd to roa.d to ihc Court the plea to till- Jurisdiction of the ( 'olirt in i his case and altida\ii. "TiiK (,>n:KN rs. Lor is i;ii:l.- elm I'lji^il Hlldr,' tjir .\ 1 1 rl h - W'rst /i' ,■ rih u' li'.-l Arf /.S'S'K "And the said Louis Kiel, in liis own iirojicr ju'i-.^oii comctli into a ( 'oiirt here and having- heard the iiit'oriiiiitioii and t oiiiplaiiit of AlcNanihr l>avid Stewart, of the City cif lliuiiilton, in tlio Pro\inee of Ontario, in the Dominion of Canada, Chief of Police, taken the ^ixtli day of .Inly, in the year of Our Lord one thousand ei^lit hundred and einhty- iive, before Hu,!,di Kieliai'dson, one of Her ^Majesty's Sti|)en(iiary Magistrates in and for the North-West Territories of Canada, saith : " That .1 lu!;h llichanlson. I'^sq., one of Her Majesty'sStipendiary Ahii^'istrates for the North-Wesr Territories of Canada, e.xeirisinn; <-iiminal jurisdietimi, in open Court, with a, justice of th(> jieae(; and a jury of six, under the ]irovision of the Xorth-W'est Territories Act, 1880, ouj.'htuot to takecoi;iiizanceof the olVences in the said information eliaryed and speeitied hecausi*. protestinif that he is not n'uilty of the sa.'.e, ne\ ertliehss, tlie sjiid Louis Kiel saith that the oti'euces witli wliieh he is cliarifed are puiiishahle with death and he should be committed for safe custody and sent foi' trial to T'pper C^anuda or to any Court constituted in Biitish (lolunibia, taking- eo.^ni/.anee of like offences committed therein, and because in ^•irtu(^ of tlie laws iu force in the place where tlie said ofi'ences are charged to liavo lieeii committed, the said Hugh Ptichardson, in open Court, with a pisl ice I the Mlirl < 'oiiri w ih" rhar Col qllltc ;i I M lll^ of days, deralile prisoner- there an liiellt to : line', if \ .M i;. moinin!^'. II i.-- :sir, jiistii'c of tlic |ii'Mrf and I jiivv nf sis, liiis III) jiii'isdiif iiiii to try tl H'cnccs clnirntMl iit till' siiid iiit'i)riii;il iiiii. "Wlifi't'iirr ilicMiiil Lmiis lUi-l |M'iiys jiid;L;iii<'ii( if lliiN.iid lluyli UirlmnlMHi in n|>fii <' as to ha\ •> the t uo ( 'mirts sittinu; at the sanu* tilli'', if you M(>iit leiiieli lia \ e III! iilijeet inii to t hat course. .Mu. ItoiiiNsoN. \\eha\eiio olijeclion to that. We were tulkin;;' alioiit it this iHOIIliliy. Mil. I''l r/l' A'llMi K. I will I'lofeeil lo read our plea to t lie j lirisd let ion of the Court, as amended in some lesperis. His |Ii)M)i;. Tlii> will lie vulistiuited for the one ]iut ii my hand this luorniiiLj. -Mr. I''il '.pal rick reads llie plea as ainemled. Ml!. KoiiiNsoN. Ill oiir \\r\\ a formal plea to the juiisdir(ioii is not necessary nor a formal answei', we thoin^ht it mdy necessary for them to state their ohjectionand for us to answer them. '•And the said ( 'jiristoplier llolan^oii. one of Her .Majesty's ( 'oiiiisel learned in the law, who for ()Lir said Soxcreiyn (,ady the (^>iieen, in this hehalf ]U'osecute, tf) the said plea of him the said Louis liiel. l.y him alio\ e pleaded as aforesaid, for < Hir said present Son erci.i;ii Lady the (^^uiiai, saitli ; "That the sail |i|ea ;ind i he inaltia- t herein coutained are not sullleieut in law to pier hide the ( 'oil it froii ' heir jiirisdiet ion, and to hear and del ermine the ofl'ences charged, nieiitioncd and specified in the said ehari;'c as alio\e idi'iri^cd upon him the said Ijoiiia Kiel ill and \>y the said ciiarye. '•Wherefore, for want of a j)roper and sullleieut answer in this hclialf he prayeth Jud,u;- iiiret, and thai the said Louis Kiel may answer in ('nurt hereto ()ur said pre.seut S'i\erei;^'n Jiadv the (.^)ueen toiieliinn' and roncernini;' the premises afiU'csaid. .\nswer handed to the clerk and fvled. His Honoi;. W'c have the jilea to the jurisdiction and we ha\c the dcmuri'cr. .Mu. Kn/i'AiKirK. \\'e join issue upon the demurrer. Ml!. drsTici: liicii.viiiisoN. .Now, if I understand the comcntionof .Mr. Fit/patiick, it is that this .\ct of ISSl), so far as it relates to the trial of criminal otieiices such a.s tlii^, is nit ra nrfs. .Ml!. FlTZPATUK'K. Mv contention is tliat the .\ct of ISSO. in so far as it rehites to (he trial of cajiital cases is itllri'i rin's. -Ml!. .) I" STICK llicii \i:i)So\. Well, as I cannot hold that, 1 luus' .istaiii the .demurrer. 6 I must now (.-iill vipoii Louis Kii-1 to ilf-ad. Prisoiifi' iilt'uds not i;iiilty. Ml!. JoiiNsioN. — Witli tlie porniission of tI»o court I lioi; loavc to (.Iciniir to the' infoiniation. it nii,;,'lit be siil^cifnt to (Icnuir o/v li'„us, or by oral cxoeptiou to tlie iuforniation : yet, as the int'orniation laid by th<> jn'ostMnition in itself formal, and a depar- ture from tlio' procedure hereto of tins court, 1 thiid< it necessary to put in a written Sieneral demurrer as follows : Canada. I Nortli-West Tei'i'ltorics. I THE QL'KEX r^. LOT IS IJlKIi, now char-vd Ijcfor.' His, Honor Hugli Ricliard- •son, StipiMui.arv Ma!j;isti'ate, and lleiu'V Li'.leune, Esquire, a justice of the peace, and a jury of six under the i.i'o\ision of sulisection ."), sectiori TC), of tlie Norh-West Terri- tories Act, 1S,0, ')n the information of Alexander David Stewart. The said Louis Riel, in his own i)r')per person, (•ometh into Court here, and ha\in^- heai'd said information I'ead, saveth that the sairl information and the matters therein contained in the manner and form as descrilied and above stated and .set forth, aie ni)t sufficient in law, and tlwit the said Louis liiel is not bound Iiy law of the land to answer the sa!.ie. Whei'efore for want of sufticii-nt infoi'mation the said Louis Kiel j)rays judgment. Ml!. irsrHH Ku iiAi!i)so\. I don I think there is anytiiin:.;' in the oJijection of Mi'. Johnston and f overrule it. -Are there any other demurrers .' .Mn. ( >SLEK. — The clerk will ask iiie prisoner whether he is guilty or not. C[,i;i!K. -Louis Itiel, are you guilty or not jiuilty / , PuisoxKH. — 1 lia\e vhe honor to answer the Court 1 am not guilty. Mr. l<"'ri'ZFAiuuK. ! have now to state that I liave to ask an adjournment till to- morrow morning to enable us to prepare some atHdavits we re([uire to i)ro(hu'e to show why we are not in a position to [iroc.'ed with the trial at the [iresent moment. His HoNoit. .luroi's will understand that they are to lie continmiliy in attendance. a.s also witnesses on both sides. We will adjourn till 10 o'clock to-ni' rrow. ('ourt then iuliouriieil. The clerk opened the Court iit 10 o'clock. His Honor Mr. .1 csticI': Riciiaudson : Cidl the jury. The clerk c:dls osei- the list of jurors. PiKolNA, .lulv lilsl, ISS.'). TiiOMAs Pi:i;i,, one of th(> ju"ors. —Your honoi', on a. i-ouiil of being i)ost ni.-ister and contractor to carry the mails, 1 beg to be relie\ed. His Hoxoii. - I fear I luue no power to relieve you now, you were fairly drawn out of a large lunnber of numes, and 1 do not think that I can discharge you now. His IloNoH. ! Insc noticed sexerai jurois who were summoned do not upptiir. Is it tile desire that proceedings should be instituted jigaiiist them '. Mk. lloiiiNsoN, Not if we can get on witlaait (hem. .Ml!. Lkmii;ux. Mr. Watson, will you phase swear the pi'isoiier to these a!lida\its. Thi' clerk swears the atHdavits. Mii. Ciu:i;nsiiii;i,1)s. Please xowv honor, we renew tlie a])}ilication made yesterday afternoon for an adjournment of this trial, in the interval since the adjournment we Tha Amei'iea, (h'fence, Th lou.se, Fourinou net and niateriiil Tha Burgess the ciisto Half-l)i'e( Canad;i, the legal jtetitions report of Pierce, ai letter fro Feliruarv llJth .la'i warded ti Lfiiul Col Leihie ill Interior. r to the 1 to the a (lepixr- wntteu llifhard- ■ac:t', ami ist Terri- .id Louis >ar(l said ■oiitaiued Hoieiit ill the sai.ie. 'llKMlt. on of .Mr. it till to- to show toudaiicc. t, iss.-). iister and I raw 11 out pjHiir. Is ailidavits. ' yestfM'day riiiiieiit we }iav«! had tlir<'0 ailidavits jacpait'd, two of the si'iiior t-ouuscl, .Messrs LiMiiicux and Fitz- patrick, and out- of the a<.'<'us('d. We haso our ap|)lication to a lary(! extent upon thoso attidav its. Ills MoxoiJ.- Have tliey lieon siiown to the counsel for the Crown '. y\v. HoiuNSOX. — \\\ have seen them just lately, we will look o\er them a^ain. -Mr. (li!KK\siiii;fJ)S reads tin.' allidaxits aniK'xed hereto Mu. .lusTU'K ilifliAKDHON. Tlio order will he tiiat tln^ trial stands adjourned, that it jiroceeds peremptorily on Tuesday uioi'iiiui;- next, the 'JStli instant, at ten o'clock. With regard to tlie .lury, I don't feel inclined to keep them in attendance, and I propose to caution and warn them to return on Tuesday morning. To 'lilK JuHYMI'^N. — Vou .i;'entlenien in the audience wiio have li.'cn warned as jurors, will understand from what has heeii said, that your services will not be re(iuiied now till Tuesday next, at ten o'clock a.m.. and you are at lilicrty now to return to your lioines if you jdease. The fees that are usual for the doulde journey, will he paid hy the (Jrowu. Pei'haps it is not necessary for me to niak<' .'iny remarks touchinj;' you p(>i'soii- ally, liut knowing the fact that you are culled upon to act as jurors in this case, kindly think of the jiosition you occujiy, and neither talk to imyhody ahout the trial, nor allow- any person to talk to you or hriiiii' you in con\ crsation. The (.'(tui't was accordingly adjoui'iu'd wi II. |.') a.m. till the "iSth .July, at ten a. in. Afjiilii fits jilid (til: iinidii'i fill' iiilj'inritiii'itl. Canada. i Till': (,)rKE\ r... LoCIS HIKL, North-West Ti'iTitoiics. | charged under the North-West Territories Act of ISSO. 1, Loris Hii;i„ the s;iid accused, heiui;' ssentiid and material witnesses for my defence. That tlie .said S. Vankounhnet is Dejuity Minister of Indian .Vtl'airs, and the said Burgess is Deputy Minister of the Interioi', lioth of whom are in their otHcial cajjacity, the custodians of \aiious olTu-ial documents, petitions and representations, made hy the llalf-lu'ceds of the XorthAN'est Territories to the (!o\('rniiient of the hominion of Canada, pi-ayin:;; for the redress of their gi-iesances, the refusal to t^raut which led to the leiial agitation of the i>eople to secure the redress of their wrongs. The said jiapers, j)etitions and docuiuents, as nearly as I can now descrihe them, are as follows: Tht( ^ iHiport of Mr. Pierc*; relating to the sottlemeiit of Prince Alhort ; a letter of the said Pierce, adtli or N'oNcndxr. 1 "^T^*, a(hlressed to tlie Minister of the Interior. A petition l>y the [''rcneii-Canadiiins and llalf-hreeds of Prinee AHiert pivsented liy ^Ir. Jiaird to tlie (lo\t'rnnien( of the Dominion of Canada. A resolution jiassed I'V these settlers of St. Lament of the 1st of Pehruary, IST^'^, forwarded to the (lovermneut of the Dominion of Canada. A pctitiu'i presented l)y the ((Ju'Appelle Half- lireeds in .\u;;ns1 or Scjitemlier, ISM, to Sir .John A. Macdonald, as Minister of the Interior. A I'esoUuiou of tlie Couneil of the Noi'tii \\'e-.t Territories, of the date of L'nd August, 1S7N. That I ha\(> reason to lieliexc. and do \erily lielie\e. and 1 am infoi'ined on i'eiial)le authority, that ail of the aforementioned diMaimcnts were duly forwarded to the (lONcrn- ment of (,'anada, and are now in tiie pllsses^ion of the \arious 1 )epartments, and ean l>e jiroeured hy the al)o\e-named witnesse.s. Tliat all the aho\-e- named witnesses ;i)-e material and essential to me in my defent'c, and will ]irove that the ai;'it:ition in tlie NorthAN'est "Territories was eonst itutional and for the ri^fhts of the people in said N'ortli W est. Tiiat without the said witneNses hein^' lieard in Court. 1 cannot make a ])roper detV'nee t'l the jiresent ehar^e and will lie d(^pri\('d of justiee. That I ]ia\e no means with whieli to defray the expenses of the said witnesses and to jiroeure tiieir altendanee iiere in Court or to retain eounsd- That unless the (4o\ eminent of this eountry or this llonoralile Court do pro\ ide the means with wliieli to seeure the attendam-e of the ahove nann^il witnesses, liefore tiiis C(mrt, it is e.ssential to my defeiu-i- t h.at t he \arious papei's, writings and documents taken from ine at the time of my suri-endi'r to (ieneral Middleton and taken by him and liis -liieors from my house suhseipiently should he plac(>d in the hands of my counsel for tl !■ examination and consideration, jirevious to liein^' )>ut upon mv tri.il. That it is impo.ssible for me to sta.te tlie exact description of the said papers, writ- inu's and documents, as the e.vcitement under wliicli I was lalioriiiLf diirim;- tlie time of my surrender and some iU>: suiiseuiient ly imd pie\ ions thereto, render it impossiMe for me to describe the said do(aiments. That i belie\-e amonLf the said documents is a cei't itical e of tlie Courts of the Cnited States of Am(>rica that \ was duly naturalized as ,a citixen of the I'niied States, which I was, but if the said eertiiicate is not amoin;- the said papers, it is essential to my defence that 1 should ln^ -i' I ici|uire at least a delay of one month, and 1 ha\e siuneil. (Siuneil), Sworn and acknowi.'d^(>y I'l Tsons interested on 1>ehalf of tlie acL-uscd to inidcrtake liis defcncf. Tiiat persons were instructed to cause to be lii'fuiLilit to Heuiua essential and neces- sary witnesses in tlii^ defence of Louis Kiel, and lielieved to lie such hy the de[ionent. That tlie witnesses ahove referred to are Doctor Francois Roy, of Quel lec. Doctor < 'lark, of Toi-onto, and Doctor A. \'allee, oi (^(udiec. That the deponent verily believes that the said witnesses would luue I'caciicd Keyiua liy this time, but by i-eason of misapprehension and circumstances beyond control, the said witnesses have failed or have not been able to %(■ present- in order to yive their evidence. That from his experience as a counsel and advocate he ssvears that the said Drs. Uoy,Vallee and Clark are necessary, materia! and indisjiensable witnesses for thf defence of the accused, and moreoxer, are the sole witnesses ca]ial4e of provinn' cei'tain imj'ortant facts relating,' to tlie said defence. That the deponent \eriiy believes that if a delay of one month is i^ianted he can procure the said witnesses by ,^oini;' himself to Quebec and Toronto, and (hat, at the expiration of the said delay, the above-coned witnesses \\\[\ lie present at the (.'ourt ■to ,i,'ive evidence in favor of thi' accu-.cd. And the deponent has si;.;'n •■worn bcfoi'c me, at lleuina. this I.' 1st day of Julv, l.^S."«. (SiulH-d), F. \. LKMIKfX. (Signed). 1)1X1 F WATSOX. r/rrl: V .1 u-'^^^'r'^" ■. • I'l^nF ()rKFX ,-.v. Loris imfl. N ortiiAN est J ei'ritories. | ( )n ti'ia! under suli-scciiou •") of section 7<) of the X'ortliA\'e->t Tei'ritories" Act of ISSO, l.iet'ore their liono's "iiiuli i-iichar;Ison. S. ;\1., and llrnry LeJeune, .1. P.. and a jui'v of six. 1, Charles Fitz}iatrick. of the city of (|»ucbec, one of the counsel of the above-named Louis Hiel, make oath and say : 1. ] was retained for the (K'fcnce of the said L(nii^ lliel in the month of June last passed, and iunuediately tlu'r^' ifter put myself in commmucation with my said client and others, with the \ icw of obtaining such infoi'ination as would enalde me to set up such defence as in the interest of my said client would lie nuist beneticial. 1*. ( )wing to the distance of Queliec from my client, it was not until the 'JlUh day of the said luonth of June I was instructed by the accused, and then only [lai'tiu'ly. .'5. Since the receipt of the said instruction, [ ha\(' lieen diligently endeavoring to • ibtaiu the attendance of tlie witnesses for the accused, but as he, the accused, is a man ndance in time for his trial. 4. I ha\c been instructed since my arrival in liegina, that the rcipnsite funds have www 10 hoon raised to scciin' tlic attciuliinco of the said wituosscs t'or tlic dcfciu't', who arc mate rial and necessary, and witliout whose evidence we cannot ])roceed to triah ."). Some of the facts intiMided to he proNcd l)y snch witnesses, are tliat the accused for several years was insane, and had to he contined in a lunatic asylum in tlie Province of Quebec, and \Nould get (h^ramu'ed ; also, the circumstances under which the accused left ids home in Montana, and came to this country, at the solicitations of his frientls, in the year one thousand ei,<,dit hundred and ei.ghty-five ; th<' nature of the agitation in the North-West, and the constant advice gi\(>n" hy the accused to limit the agitation to constitutional means and peaceful measures ; the desire expressed l»y the accused to leave the country in tlie month of Fehruary last [jassed, and the olijections of (he people to his returning to .Muntaria aforesaid : that the alleged rebellion was connnenced and conducted under the direction of a council of fourteen persons, of which council the prisoner was not a mendicr ; and that he did nut particij-ate in aii\' cngiigeuient i>i connnit or countena ce any oxcrt act of treason. ('). 'I'hese facts can be proxed liy tiabriel Dunmnl, Miclnd Dumas, Naj)oleou Xault. Dr. Roy, of Qut'bec, Dr. Clark, of Toronto, and Dr. Valh'e, of Quebec, whose attendance at the trial I Nfiily belie\-e can lie secur; ,, if sutlicient timi^ foi' that [)arpose is granti'd to the defence. (Signed), (\ FITZPATUJCK. Sworn before nie, at Regina, 'his ) L'lst dav of .lulv, iSS.'t. I ( Signed j. 1)1X11-: WATSON, Cfrr/,: Pu;<:i\.\. tue.-iday, -July the L'Stli, ISS.l, The Court met at ten o'clock a.m. .Mu. Osi.Ei; opened the case to the .'ury. The witnesses -were then called as follows: Dk. .lon\ H. W'lU.oriMiHV, sworn, examined by .Mr. lloliinson. t^). "^'ou are a medic! man ? — .V. Yes. (). Where are you pi'actising ! A. At Saskatoon. (.^). Mow long there? — A. I lia\(> been there since two yeai's last -May. Q. How far is Saskatoon from Batoche .' .V. About ')() miles. Q. Do yrni remember going to Uatochi' about the Ibtli .March last '. A. i do. i). ])i(l you go alone? - ,\. Xo. I was accomjianied bv Q. V>\- whom ? — A. A half-iireed named Norbert Welsh. Q. And at what house did you go to stop when you got to JJatocln' ? with Georiie KiM'r. A. i stoppect Q. [s that the Kerr Ilrothers ? — .V. Yes, at theii- stoiv. Q. Did you hear anything of any anticipated dithculty? A. I did. (l AVhere ? A. Iheai'd it at Mr. Kerr's store. (i. How long did you remain at Uatoche th(>n ? .\. Two days. Q. Y^Ki went on the Kith, when did you leave it .'- .\. [ remained o\ er the 17th and left upon the Kstli. Q. D anticipate( and .Mr. .\ Q. 11 W(^ were I <.>. Y (,). W desirous o ! u. I) i (i. w I to find hii Q. D (.). W (.,). \\ Q. II (<). 1) Q. II (,). .\ <>>. V Q. 11 then. I (,>. V Q. N' to assert ■ Q. E fdid he asl* [sat opposi land passe [has conu^ •'ood life. (,). i Q. \ soniethin; prepared Q. A to the do Q. 1 q. ' armed. who arc uiatf- it the Hocused I tlic Province li the accused )i:' his tVipuds. t' the agitation ic agitation to ]\(\ accused to ctions of (he as coMiiiieuced ch council the ngagenient oi ij)oleou Nault. ise attendance ose is "'ranted /rmcK. •JSth, ISS.'i. A. I do. A. i stopped I \ (ver tlH> ITtli 11 Q. Did you see any one on the ITtli, did you Iiear anything then of any disturhance anticipated, did you hear any rumour of possilih' diHiculties ? A. 1 did liear rumors. Q. WluMi you h'ft liatoclie, whom did you go witli ?- A. I loft witli ]\Ir. Welsli and Mr. Macintosh. Q. Had Welsh any object in \ iew, did ho desire to see any one from llatoche ? A. W'e were lea\ ing l>atoche for Saskatoon. cembor or January liei'ore ? A. Yes, in NovemlxM', I l>elieve. (^). Whereal)outs ? — A. I met him at tlie house of Moiso Ouellette. (^. Had you been introduced and spoken to him then ? .\.. I had spoken to him then. (^. You knew him by sight? A. Yes. (}. When you met him at Rocheleau's, did he say anything to you ? - A. lie did. I Q. What did he say .' — A. Well, he tohl me the time had come for the Half-breeds \o assert their rights. Q. Do you mean that was the tirst thing or almost the first thing he said to you, fdid he ask you any (juestion at all ? — .V. When I entei-ed tiie house, I spoke to him. .1 [sat opposite to lum, and very little was said for a few moments. Presently, he got up and passed in front of me, and he suddenly stopi)e(l and turned to me and said ; The time [has come when it would have been well for a man to have been good or to have led a L'ood life. (^). Did he say anymore then ? A. i replied to that. (J. What did you say. do you I'cmember .' -A. I cannot remember what I did say, something to the eliect it would be better foi' a man to always lead a good life and b(> prepared for any emergency. Q. What took i)lac(> next?-— A. .lust at that tinu' a large crowd of men drove up to the dooi' of Rocludeau's house. Q. How many do you think '. — A. I would judge about 60 or 70. (,». Were tliey Half-breeds ?— A. llalf-bre.Mls. (}. Were they arnuHl ? A. They were. (^t. All ai'med, as far as you observed ?-- A. No, there were some w!io were not armed. 12 (). Were the inaiorii v iiniii'il .' A. The iiiajoi'ity wciv aniicil, 1 n.ily iviudiiWrr st'fiiiii' line whii was not aniicd <^». W'liat wore the laajority anin'.i wi A. '1' ic iiia|(ii'ii\ )i'lic\ f, had s lint i;-uiis. aii|><'arfil to iiic to lie shot ,i,'iiiis. Tlicv wci't! outsidi' ainl I was in the lioiisr. (;». Tliis would have l.t'L'U on the 17th Maivli, it' 1 under nd il ri;,litlv,' A. TIk- Ntli. It was Wcdncsdav, \ l.clievc, the ISth. as (l Wlicu tills crowd cauic, (lid thd prisoner Kay anytliinK to you." A. It was /lUst hey di'ove up he addressed nie. \\v then said tlie Half lu'eeds (he and Iii.> peoi.le, I lie] e\-e, he put it) intended to strdce a i>Iow to L;ain their ri-lits, ,Uain (}. Did you make any answer? A. Yes, I reidied theiv were ditt'erent ways to their rights, tlie white settlers took a dill'er<>nt way in having their <;rievance.s knew lietter than lu^ did as to the 'grievances ot' the settlors. no one settled. lie re}ilied And he said : 1 and my jn'ople have time and tinu' a,u:ain petitioned the ( iovernnient to redi-ess our ;L;'rievances, anfl he said : The only answer we received each time has 'neiMi an increase of police. (j). lie said tliev had lime and time a^ain petitioned the ( lox ernnient for redres.s, and the onlv ;uiswcr they I'eceived each time was an increase of the police .' .\. ^ e>. (J. What next did he .sav'.'-A. He said : Now f hjive my police, referrin;;' to the men at tlie door. (). Tliose 'in or 7l) men ! -\. Yes. He pointed to them and he s.iid ; V (HI sei> now I II i\(' my police. I n one wee existence, that little (iovernnient police will lie wi]ic(l out of (,», N\'e raise a .hat ne.xt ? -A. 1 helieve, T said, if he intended to attack tlio police or reholiion, they should look after the protection of the .settlers, th(-re lieiui: no i'l will aiiionu' the settlers towards the I lalf-lireeds. • ^ What ne.xt.' A. He told me I was from Saskatoon, and as a settler from Saskatoon, I had no ri^ht to speak for the welfare of the settlers, and cliar^'ed the settlers at Saskatoon with havim.; offered to aid the mounted polic(^, at P.attleford, to put down an Indian rising last autu.mn. (J. il'.'jieat that.- -.V. lie said that I, as a citi/;en oi Saskatoon, had no riyht to ask •protection, liecause... . licciuse the people of Saskatoon had aided the police ? A. He said they oiJ'ered ni.ii to kill the Indians and llalf-hreeds. (,). That w,is the w ason A\liv lie sail 1 the settlers of Saskatoon had no riy'lit to \ >ro- tection ; A. H'! said ; N\'e will now show Saskatoon or [he people of Saskatoon who \\ ill (h) the kill uiy (^'. (iOon."-A. He made a statement as to my knowledge of his rehellion, that ii of the former rehellion in 1^70, and he said that ho was an Amei'ican citizen living in .Montana, and thai ilie Half-lireeds had sent a deputation there vo liriiii;' him to this country. (}. W'liat else .' ^V. That in asking him to come tlicy had told their plans, and that he had replied to tliei|i to the etl'ect th;it their plans were useless. Q. Did he say what the plans were ? — A. Xo, 1 helieve not, hut that he liad told them that he had plans, and that if they would assist him to carry out those jtlans he would ii'o M'ith them. (.,|. Did he tell yini what those jilans \\-ei'e ? A. Yes, he did, (^t. N\'hat were they .' -A. He said the time had now come when those jilans wer(^ mature, that his proclamation was at Pemhina, and that as soon as he struck- the first \.'..<\v lii'i'f, tliat lH'OfliUiiatioii would l;'() foi'tli, and ln' was tn 1h' juiucd liy I laU' lnvcds ami' Indians and tliat tlic United Sta.i was at his liack. (}. hid he tell you aiiytliint; imac .' A. lie said lliat histoiv, I laiylit know that lie infiuit wliat lie said. ;no\\ nil;' hnn and in> pa^t <>. Anvthin — A. lie said iliat tlic time had coUh' ni)\\ when he was to I'uh: tliis coinitiy c)i- [icrish in the aitcinpt. <^>. ( Jo on. A. W't' liad a hmy conversation th"n as to the riiilits of the I lalf and lie laid out his ]ilans as to t he yoNcrnnient of tii" ,<)untr\ . hl-eeil- <.t. What did lie sa\' as to the iio\eiaiinent of the rounti'S' .' A. Tl u'V w ere t,, I ia\-e a n ew yo\cnnnent in the N'oi'th \\'est. It was to Ik would lia\e no sucli parliament as the house at ( )tt; posed (it (old teaiaui;' men. t he\ . Vou niPiin to sav von cannot sav how these seven were to 1i(> ai)i)ortionated .\. ^ t's. he ni(^ntioiieil llavai iaiis, l^oles, 1 1 alians, ( lennans. Irish. Here was to 1, new Ireland m the North West. (). Anvth reeo|l(;eL no nijjf more .' Did he sav anvihin.i;' ahout hiniselt o" his own [ilaiis 1, .\. I thinu' further at (he iii'csent tiiia (i>. You siiy lie referred to tlie jirev ious rehidlion of IS7(X what did lie say in rey'ard to tlia.t .' --A. lie referred to that and 1h> said that that rcliellion. the rohellinn of fifteen years a.ii'o, would not he a patch uimhi this (uie. (J. Did he say anythiny further with re-urd to liiat .' .\. lie did ; hr s]ioke of the numher that liad iieen killed in that relicllicui. U. What did he .sav as to that ? — A. I cannot state as to wliat he said, hut it was to the etl'ect that this I'elicllion was to he of far y-rcater extent than tli(> form (•r, Q. Did he speak to the men who were there, or they 1o him wl the cutter drove uii to tl A. Tl ier(^ were several men there when len you were there }i to the door. The ma joritv le in. of them stayed outside in the sleit>lis and some of them can Q. Yes ? — A. Thev siioke in French wliich I did not understand \ovy wed, iiu t T understood him to tell them to ^o down to Champai^iip's house, and I understood him to. he sending them there : most of the men then drove otV and a few st.ayed hehind. O. You cannot Siiy what they asked hiui as your know]ed«;-e of frcnch does not enahle you to repeat the (piestion they askod him ? — A. No, i cannot say. Q. Now what did you do then ? Which left tii-st, you or he ? — A. We had dinner. (>. This conversation took ]ilacc l)efore dinner, or diirin.i; dinner ?- .V. Partly liefore, (luring and after dinner. Q. You had dinner and what took place next ? — A. Rid jirepaicd to go then tofollow tlie others. Q. Well, what next ? — A. As he was leaving he asked me, he stated personally he had no ill feeling towai'ds ine, but that I was a Canadian, hut he put it in this way : as a Canadian I was a part of the Canadian Goverunient, and in our hcai-ts there could he no friend.ship towards each other. Q. Well, did you go before or after liim ? — A. He left before me. Q. Did he say wlierc he was going 1 — A. No, he did not. Q. What did you do ? — A. I left innnediately after he did and went on toward.si Clark's Crossing at the telegraph office. <^ '(ir WllMt [llll'|KIM 14 A. 'I'd iiiiikf known v\ Iml I liail licu'd III li (i. To wliDiii . —A. .Mv iiitciiiinn \v;is Id coiiininiiK.'atc willi Iv^'ni^i, luit w lifii I 'M to Cliirlc's Cms.siii,!,', the wiif was (). How far was it from Clai 1 o\cf to milt'.s. down hi Iwccn ( 'lark's ( 'i'ossiiil; and '^i A) ( 'rossin'' I hat voii had lakrn dinniT .' A. Sonn'thin^ (.>. \\',i> that on voitf wav to Saskatoon ' A. It was. (.). Then vou intcndi'd to coMihutuifatc with iicLiina, l>iit wlion von L,"^t to ("laik's CiMissiiii; thf tclc'i'aiph was . ^'oll informed him of what vou had heard '! — A. Ve.s. wi g. What was .Mr. Welsl th lliel t A. He was. Kiel lin'' all this time W IS lie pres pr< ■;eiit at vnur eonver.siition (}. I >id he. ni Kiel .s jiresenee, tell you a iivthiiiu' or not ? -\. No, I helieve not. th \U lel as lar as noii remember (i>. Ila\e you told me your whole eonversatiou wi - — .\. I rememlier one ])oint in regard to < )riiiii,'eism. (,». What was that? -A. As lliel was leaviiii,' he expressed an opinion, lie stated they would have no oraiiifeism in the North- West. I said T hoped hy oi'anijieism iie did not mean Protestantism. lie turned excitedly iiiid said he was ^lad I had mentioned it, tiiat he certainly understood the ditl'erenee lietweeii Protestantism and oran,<,'eism, and he then spoke of the diti'ercuit reliijions and beliefs and illustrated it liy the example of a tree -the true eluireli was the larye hraneli of the tree, and the others, as they departed from it i^ot weaker, u]> to the top of the tree. (}. He illustrated his ideas of the ilifl'erent III.' all you ran I'eiiiemlier of your conversation with him ? Whilst speakiii;;' of Kending the -A. Send in,!;' which telegram ? Ke stati'd •eli'nous hollies in ( hat wav '. Have vou to j;ram last fn )irerii !"• *;o aid the iiolice the Saskatoon people that he had lieen fui'iiished with a copy of the tele,i,'ram sent Ity the Saskatoon people to Pattleford last fall, oti'eriii;;' to kill oil' the Half-lireeds and Indians, and that, in conseijuencr, the Saskatoon p. 'ople !ia.d no ri^ht to ask for any pro- tection: and that was nor the only teleura.m they had sent, that al)OUt 11 days Iiefore, I think, lie said that they had a;;ain marie sui'h an oH'er. I mei-'i that the people of Saskatoon h.irl auain made such an ofl'er. (i>. Now is there everything' ('Isi' he said to vou that vou can i-ememher, or have you old me e\('rvtliiiii. A. I r 1 ia\(' told vou exervthin Q. You wi'iit lia'-k to Clark's ( 'rossini;-. and communicafi'd what vou had lieird, to Col. Morris, and from that t Clark's Crossing. me onwards, whrre were sou ;' — .\ I was ;ir Saskatoon and <.>. i'. ( ) W .\. riie li (m 11 iiany <.». W tin risl 1 1 o. T len, do you know anything- more of your owned knowledge of Kiel, in connec- tion with tliis reiieilion. furtlur. M I mean nor w liat vou liave lieani A. No, I know notluni; ^.xanuned hv .Mr. imtzpathick. Q. If I mistake not, you said vou saw itic! for the lirst time, aliout the month of Noveml)er, ISS-I- '.?- -A. Ahout Noveml )er. len A. 1 did not. ii. Did you see liim for any lennrli of time tl ii. Did you— you never saw him a'^ain till the 17th of March, 1S6.");~A. I believe not. i:. it l)y iiiid ..v, 1 vol! > .1, to 11 ;ui(l UlilPC- ii liiiii; month -.: S 'i>. IhiriiiL,' tlmt iiiliTviil of' tinii'. ymi hit nwiiri' tlicrc wns 1111 111,'itirtioii .1,'oiML; on iliriMiyliitiit tliat section (it' con lit IT f A. I WHS |M'it't'ctly well iiwan- of it. . 'I'lic tirsl t iiiic you t'xcr licaril ut' aii\ ict'crciicc to an ajipcal Id arms in c(ii;iicct iuii with this a,i;itatioii. was diiriii;; tliis intcrx icw. in Marcii last, with llicl ,' A. Tlial was the fii'sl I heard. (i>. Kiel was not ai'nied nn that occasion .' A. lie was. (^ What had lie with liiiu ' .\. .\s he left the house, . . . . When you f • t lieLCan to tall; with itiel. he hrst iiienl ioiied in you tlie fact that it now iieca me necessary for all men t tlic remark. . Tlieii. he l)ei;an telling;' you aKout his intention to sul>di\ ide these |)ro\ iiices into se\eii ! A. lie did not. • i). lie told y(ai he intended uiNiny the jirovince of (^)uel)ec to the Prussians or < ieiniaiis ! .\. lie did not. 'i'. I )id he sa\' ansthiny as to t he manner he was n'oiii'' to (li\ ide, did he I'cfer tu the I'avarians, Unnyarians and other |MMi|i|e> ' A. He di (). What did he say he was yoiiiu' to do with these |ieo])!e?- A. They were ,i;oin<; to I ^ist him ill th(( reliellion, hefore this war was ( loi'tidii of the count rv. )\('r, and tliat tliev would ha\e their <). \\\ country what did he alindc to.' .\. The North West Territdries. <^>. I'!\cliisi\ ely .' ,\. .\s I undei'.-lDiid it. (). Would \ ou ijiiw indicate to u> I'le dili'eient licdjiles he expected to assist him? — .\. Tile Irish (tf the I'liited Stati-. 1 Ic ( iermans. the Italian.-.. I >a\ ariaiis ami Poles, and ( iermaiiy and Ireland. (). We have had (JerinaiiN and lielaml twice.' .\. Well, he put ii twice. Ilejnit the Irish and ( leiniaiis o (,>. The l'>a\ ariaiis also .' .\, ^'e f the I'liited States, then (iermans' it.--elf was t(j come into I me Q. Tlie I luiiL;arianK ? -A. I don t know. I don't lieliexc lie' said aiiytliiiiL; as to the II uiiij'arians. . The Poles did he intend to ui\ e tliem a chance too .' .\. lie did. (,). He also st.-lted to \(>U liew.i- Noi that I remeniliei', I ic id not iiui i). Did exiilain I ' \() - L:i\iiii; tlie Jews a portion of the pid\ iiice ?- -A. t ion tliem w hile 1 was there. u, at dial time, as to what progress he had made towards f.iiiipletiim- negotiations he had liiid with these peoples for their as.-,istance .' -.V. He did iiol. tj>. You did not think it iieces>ary to aNk how he intended to cany out ihis agi'ee. meiit, or if he had made any eii('ea\dis to haxc an uiidei'standinn- about this? -A. I did_ i). Wliat did he .say aliout this ,' ,\. I tried to find from liim liis plans, to get wliat information I could, and he seemed nnw illiiiy-, lie took yood care to unfold none of Ins plans. <^ You said he liad unfolded his jilaiis as to suhdividing the province? — A. Y''e.s. <^. Did you tlien ask him if had entered into negotiations Avitli these ditierent poojiles, i)i order to get their assistance ? — A. No, I did not ask him that. Id (J. \',,ii k liiui linw lir -A | M'.t.'il to .;,'t'l tlifsc iKMiplr into ilio foimtrv I'iilici , iliil yon .' A. No, I ili. l>oii'( vou iliiiik tli;it Wiiiild Ii;m.' 1m. 'ii ;i very i,iii'y •|ii.'-.tioii, lo [lU* in onli'i to yi't ,lt tlic liot'olll of lii, [ilillH ' A, I lii'll('\c not. <). N'oii tiioiiulil 111! his |il;iiis wi'i"' MTV fMsoniilili' iiinl .i(ii|itiil)li' :' A. I liiid ii o\\ 11 opiiiiiiii iTijiu'iliiit;' I Ih'Im. *}. W'liiit i^ lliiit o|iiiiioii, lie uood i'iioii'.:li to let us kimw it ,' My o|iiiiion at, tiiiit tiiiir uas liiai lliiit was iilioiit tin' last tliat would lio licai'd ot' it. i\ «.>. V III lic\ IT luiil Ilea luid ]| inl aiiyiliiii;;' ot' thc-ii' |p|aii^ Iiftorr A. l''roiii I mil (,). I'roiii Iniii I'V aiivoiir I'lsc A. Notl iiiLj ot th.it kind u ill) ri'Li-ard to tlii.- coiinl r\', <,», In ri'^ard to tin- iiktn lie viiliiiiitt"d lo vou, ilid you fvor licar ol surli a iilai lict'orc .' .\. No, I ni'vci- did. (.). I )id it ^t ike vol! IS licnr,^' at all |icculiar .\. I! atliiT a little i). W It'll he spoke to you oil reli-ious ^iilijtH t-., did \ oil Ullilefst .llld lliin to tell \i)ll t liat, in 1 1 is religion, (/lirist was the t'ouiidation. md reinTseiited the trunk of the tree, and the dill'tTeiit relii:ions iiiiyht lie eoiisidei'ed as i'e|)reseiit iny' the lininehes of the tree .' .\. I .lid. (j>. hid he sav what posit'ou h.- o.-eupied with ret'ei'enee to the trunk or with ter.Mice I*, ('lirist .' .\. lie sti'te.l hi^ ( 'luir.'li was the stroin;i'st liraii.h. ret. 'I i). I »uriiii;' all this time, diiriiii;- all thi- rouxersaiio i. i think vou slat.'d .Mr. Wel- t ' A. II was. was pns.'nt. was lie no (}. Wli.T.' is .Mr. \\'el-.li iiou .' .\. I Im'H.'M" he is at I'ol t ( Ju'.\p[.elle. (,>. That is ahmit ID miles from lure ' A, Alioiit -"nl miles. (). When vou ^aid Mr. Iti.l .■xplained his reliifioii was tie- str.>ii;,'est hraneli, did lie sa\\\lrit his relii;ion w as .' .\. I i.' did. he saiil th.' Uom.iii ( 'arholie ( 'liurcli. {). He .liil not say anytliinu' furth'i- than that: almiit his relii^ion ' A. No. <^>. hill he speak anythiiii;' ahout th.' F. i))e .'- -A. No, 1 lielievi' u.it. Nolhiini that I cm rememlier. (). ^'ou don't remeinli.'r anythiiiL; furth.-rof this eouver.-^ation with Kiel, except what you ha\ e stated .' .V. i remeiiiiii'i' nothiii;,' further. (^). < )f I'ourse, the plans ho unfolded t.i you ahout the cnn({uest of the North- West, dill not strike you as anythint;- extraordinary for a man in his position to asscsft ? --A. It (lid eertiiinly. (). It a]ipeared to you a very I'ational ju'opositioi; .' - .V. No, it did not. IvMimined liy .Mr. RohinsoN. i}. ^'ou said Iviel wa- not armed in the house, di.l you see him armed at all? -A. 1 saw him armed as he drove otl' f rom the hou^.', he was supplied with a i,'uii as he fftt into the slei-h. i). ho you know l.y whom he was supjilied with a yuii .' A, No, I don't know. I (•mild not sav '<'\' whom it was yiNcn him. TiioMAs .Mackav. sworn, examined hv Mr. Kohinsoii. Q. .Mr. .Maekay, where do you live : -A. Prinee Alhert. i}. You were born in this country ? — A. Yes. Q. Jiow long have you lived in Prince AUiert ?— A. I have been in Prince Albert district since July, 1873. \ 17 ii. Voti ifiiii'iiiliir, of <'((ui sc, tlic (li>i iii'liiiiicc wliiili tonls iilnr.' in Mmc |i lust? - A. Yrs. (.^. Can Villi It'll iiic wlifii Mill tiist licui'd nt' tiiaf iiii'I w lieu vnii liisl tnnk iiiiv pair, ill (•c>iisfi|iiciicf of it ,' A. I IiikI iicanl ot' tlic airitiit imi t'nr snini" tiiiir in tli»' fiirlv part ni Aliinli. I iii-anl lliut iIk- pii^mitr was incitiii;,' tin- Halt' lirt-cds to tal volunleeis to i^o up to reinforce the j'olice, at l-'ort ( 'arlton. C^. Well.' -A. 1 went down to (iie town and \\ent (o a niiniiier nf the people there and told them w hat w e had heard, luid nHk( d them to rneei us, in .James KUiott's rooms, in town. We met there and decided --W(' thou;4ht tiiat we i/ould not spare the nuiid.er of iiien, as w<' had to look after the town and our families. We went out with something; like (0 men. t'aptain Moore enrolled 111 men, and wcstartetl alioul twd o'clock in the afternoon of that day. ii. For what place .' A. Fort ' 'ai'lton. Q. How f,ir was Fovt Carlton from Prince AHiert .' A. Ili'tweeii lU and ."a) mih s. (.}. When did you j;et to Carlton,' A. We airi\ed to ('ailton lietwcen ten and olveii that ni;.dit. (,t. What day was that? \. The •JMtii. i^. Fort (/arlton was then Ii' Id liy a force of Mounted Police, under .Major Crozier .' —A. Yes. t^. You reported to liim ? A. Yes, rf'i)orted to him. Q, Did you remain there that night? A. WIumi I arrived there, T found Mr. Mitchell, from Itink Lake, was at Fort Carlton. He had a letter from Mr. Riel, I believe. The letter, I tiiiiik, was ivyardiiii.' the surrender of Fort (Jarlton. I did not see it. VTien 1 left Prince Aliiert, I had decided to yo on to I'.atoi'iie, where the I'eliels had niade their headipiarters. When 1 found Atitchell there, he asked nie U) go along with liini, tliat 1 might lie of some use. C^). For what jiurpose did you decide to go to Patoehe ? — -A. To see if I could jioint out to tliem the dang(. TIu'V took yon Id t'l" .Kiiai'.I .' A. Tln-iv wms n sciitiv iilrmt lil'ic'ii !■• twenfy yard-. DM lliis sidi- of flu- -itDi'i-, id 111- nId|) \ nil ' A. II'' stii|i|ii'il 11- lllld tniik Us Dll. <}. I>id soil kiiiiNV liis iiMiiu'.' A. N". (j». WliiT.' did ill' tid<<' VDii 111 .' A. 'I'd tlic j,'u;ird llnit WHS MtatiDii"d arniiiid Wh'I.t iV llakcr's sIdit. <^>. Well' A. riiiii|i I iiiardiipiiy ciiiii' nut :iiid said In' was dc|iiiti'd Id >Iid\\ in IK'l'DS.S t lie l'l\ I'l', «.». Y oil Wl'l'f llli'll oil the N'dI'IIi side Dt till' li\fl'.' A. Vcs. I Ic u('t illtD the .slcii,'ll I lUul tDDl< IIS aCI'DSS to tllcir CDlllllil I'DDlll. <^». Wlici'c was tlii'ir fniiiicil I'DDlll ! A. Tin' cDiiiicil tddiii al lliat liiiii', \v;is a litfltf l)llil(lili,lf jusl sDiitli nf llic I'liiii'i'lt I . WliDiii did VDii tiiid ill the ('Diiiirii i'ddih,' A. A iiiiinlici' nf iin'ii. .' ... ^'('s, tlicv wi'iT ai'iiii'd. \l. Aiiiifd.' (j». Tiii'si' Iwch !• Di' lit'ti'cii llli'll VDii lia\i' rct'i'iTi'd Id, were tlicv armed .' A. Yes. lililipc I liiardiiiHiv was imr ai'iiii'ij, Imt tlien-.f wci'i-, We wi'ut into 1 he cDiiui'il roDiii, iuiil I wt'iit ai'Diiiid tln' tal>it' and aiiiDiitf tliciii, ;. id tiiialiy w.is iiiti'Ddin'rd to tlic |.!'isDiicr. PI Tliat as tlic til'st tllili' Il'Ul SI'I'll llllll < >. Wiii'i'i' were vmi iiitrDdiii'cd Id iiiin .' A. In the cDmicii nvniii. ».». V m .sav tlial wa still" lirst viiiic VDII iiad srcn liiin .' .\. ^' (J. W'liD were in tlir ciuincil i'ddjii wlii'ii you were iiili'Ddui'i'd Id liim .' A, (.^uiti' a iiiiiiiliiT. Tliry Wl'l'l- iiiD\ iiiL;' in and nut. (^>. Would yon say tlicrt" was a iId/.i'ii nini in tlir i'ddih .' A. Yi's : iiiorc tliaii tiiat (^>. W'JiD introduced yon to tlie in'i.soner .' - A. .Mr. .Mitrlirll iiiti'DiIured ine to Mr- Kiel, as one of I [er .Majesty's soldiei's. (,>. Tliat is Mr. Ililliard Mili-liell .' -A. Ye.s. I sliook liands with .Mr. Kiel and liad a talk with him. I said: 'riicre a])])ears to be i^reat exeitemeiit here, .Mr. Kiel. lie said; No, thine i.s no exritenient at all, it was siiiiiily that the people were ti-yini; to redress their urievaiices, as they had a.sked repeatedly for their ri,!,'hts, and tiiat tlu-y Inid (lei-ided to make a demDiistration. I told him that it was a very danyei-oiis thiii'' to resort to arms. Mo said he had heen waitini;- fifteen lony; years, and that tliev had l)eHii imj: loseil upon, an d it was time now, after they had waited patiently, that their rii^hts slionld 1h\ ^iveii, as the ])oor Halfdin-eds had been imposed upon. I disputed his wisdom and aiKised liiiii to adopt ditl'erent measures. i^. Did lie speak of himself at all in the matter? — A. He accused nie of havin,<; neglected my j)eDple. lie said, if it was not for men like me, their grievances would havo been redre.ssed long ago. That, as no one took any intere.st in tlie.se people, he had de- cided to take the lead in the matter. <^). Well! .v. He accu.sed me of neglecting them. I told him it was simplv a mat* ter of 0})iniDii. That I had certainly taken an interest in them, and my interest in the country was the same as theirs, and that I had advised them time and again, and that I had not neglected them. J also said that he had neglected them a long time, if he took as deep an interest as he professed to. He became very e.xoited, and got up and said : l!» Voii (I.iii't klinw wliiit w,' iiiv iit't.T it '\H lilixiil : l.ldoil : Wr wiiiil l.ln.,.1 [ It is a warcf • •Mi-niiiiiutioii ' I'ImtvImhIv that is ai.'aiiisl lis is to lir drivrii nu( uf the coimti-v. 'I'lii'l'i' \Mic i\vi> fiiisr, ill tlir ((.niiiiv, (lir m;,,\ ,.riiiiiciii mill tlir IIikImih liny (•(iiii|iiiiiy'. \- II'' lui iii'd 111 iiir 1111(1 said I was ii traitor tii his j^ovcnniHMit. 'i'lial I (.». iUH a s|M'ciiiiit..r and a sroimdivl and n.l.l.rr and tliicf, mid I don't know what all <^ lie nsfd vrrv \ inh-nt laiiy;iiii;;^«> to you ,' -A. Y«'s. Iff liiiallv said it w ,: \ iiiniMl and till- tirst l>lo. Was Thomas Scott 1 1 lere .\. V le said so. iUl A. I : ul down St to tl lem for cpiitp a while, and he occasionally tairs and said J was speakiiii,' too loud, that I wa.s annoyino- their committee meetinji. When I said what \ had to say, I asked for some- tliirij; to eat, that 1 was ju'etty hunufry. 1 j,'ot somethin:;', and aft(>r 1 i^ot throu^jh, there was a lot of hiankets in the c(M'ner, and I laid d own there till Mitchell was readv. (,>. Wheiv was Mitchell at the ti me A. r p stairs. W len lie .t tl n"ou ih h cain(> down with the pri.s(uier, and I told him to wait awhile, and we left for Fort Carlton. When he came down, lie, Riel, apologised to me for what he had said, that he did not mean it to me personally, that he had the .tjreatest respect for me per.sonally, Ijut that it was my cause he was speakin^j; as^ainst and he wished to show lie entertained yreat respect for me, he also apoloifised in french to tju' i^'ople there, and he said as 1 was . Tliiit WDiild lia\i' licfu (111 the iiioniiii:,' o t' tltr -Jl,' A. Y (,). Alnmt wiiat (inn' A. < )n )!• tWii 111 till' atti'ninou (I r tlic iM: U. Wliat I'.illoclic liaiipcui'il nil tilt' way A. I iiii't a uuiiiliiT Mt' ai'iiu'd iicuiilc (•niiiiiiM- iiilo (). How far from Halorlic .' A. AKoiit two miles. (^). You met a iimiilMT of aniieil jicojik- in sleighs .' A. Yes, in slei^.iis, Imliaiis ami llalf-lireeds. (J. ladiaus from what reserve .' A. I did not rero-uix.e the Indians. (^>. How manv sleighs full ? A. Fl\eorsi\ I met on the road. I spoke to them, I knew two or three of the nion who were there. I asked tiiem what til this was aoout, 1 out of the sleighs and shook luinds with me, and told tliey juiiiiuH sent for and taken hy AllKMti.Monkmuu who was driv ;ue tliev had iietMi llli;' the team. (). How manv altogether were there ? -A. In one sleigh there were li\c, and, [ liiiLiN, in ano her ll lere we re six. Altogether there must have heeii 20 or iT). ( ). Were thev all armed .' A. I eoiiid not sav, lieeanse tliev were sitting down. 1 saw rilles am d ''uns along with them. < >. Y Ou N\t 'lit ':;iek to L'arlt on .V. Y. (,>. Did you meet many iiien on the way I — A. That is all we met on tlie road. When we got to Duek Lake, there was a trail coining from the east and west, and we saw some sleighs passing there aiul some sleighs passing along the J^ake. v». Then when did vou get ti.) Duck Lake or to Carlton 'rather .'---A. Ali<)ut four o cioci (^>. What was vour oliject in returning to Carlton I —A. T was just returning. As I w as just going away trou til e CO uiu'il room, T overtook Kmiiianuel Champagne, he wa.- walking along tlie road with Jackson, who was with lliel ar that tiiii(\ 1 told him to 'et into the rig and I thanked him for the stand lu^ had taken. I told him if I could o of service to liim in aiiv wav 1 would never forget the servii es he had rendered n H. told me then they had decided to send tv»o men to ^Lijor Cro/ier, liut they were afraid of treachery, that they were afraid they would he arrested. 1 .said you need not he afraid I will be one of the party that will come out, and you may tell them they will not l)e interfered with at all. When we got to Carlton, Mitchell delivered the letter to Major Crozier, and I think it was asking him to iiu'ct him half way snnH> time that night, and that Iviel did not choose to meet Major Crozier him.self, liut that he had .sent two men. O. Did vou 20 as reiu'esenting Major Crozier? — A. Ye Al lout an hour atter wo had reatiied there, N iiaiies jvoiin and M ixiine ■[line eame up driving m a cutter. W 1. that thev slnnild 'Ave us were mounted. We told them what Major Crozier had sait the names of the leaders (*f the moveinenf, and that tiiey woultl have to answer to the law, luit that a gi'eat many of them who had lieen f'nri-ed into the inovrMiu'iit, that they should he dealt leniently with. Xolin said lliel and his council demanded the uncon- r of Fort Carlton and nothing else would satisfy them, and if thev did ditiniial surreiHle so, no liarm would he done them, that thev would yiv." a safe-eonduct honit ^\■ e sail there was no use discussing the matter at all as we said the matter could not he enter- tained at all, that all we had to say was to advise them to disperse and go home, .ind that the leaders of the movement would have to li" answerai)le to the 'aw. He then said lie had a letter wliieh he was told to hand us, that it would he no use to hand it. as Fort Carlton was not to be surrendered. I thanked them for tlie stand tlu'v had taken when I had been there that nioruing and I returned to Carlton. a I lout the;', ( (.» Yes. to Cc I/, had b,. ( 'i'ozii-i' tin::' s< that h, iijorniii; sergeuni ■^ee if tl a i|iiai-ti ■ Uliies of 21 A. Y videncc, larnot, 1 think, vou C). Which was -dvcn 11 'gainst vou -A. Y . Well, did any cue ask him to act (Jarnot came forward. A. 1 lie ailed for the socrotarv and tl H'U Q. And took his seat at the ti A. Y as secrctarv < •i tl le council (.}. Now on the 21st vou >j,f>t liack to Carlton, how loni; did vou remain tliere 1 — A. till tin kli Q. What did vou do ti ( len A. ( )n th(^ ni^ht of the I'lth, betweiMi ten aiul eleven o'clock, Cro/i(>r asked me to i;o and see if J could heai' amthini;' of Major lr\in( Q. Was he expected ? A. W inl that he left 1! enin I with reinforcements, hut no thini: liad heen heard of I uni. tour ,1 oe He fraid )t he 11 not er to that 1 sent er W(^ We \e us ,. the they uneiui- leV liid e said (Miter- le, ,ind e then d it. as taken i',). You heard that li(> h;id left lle^ina ? A. That he was to l(>ave at a certain time. C,}.- And notliiii!.;' had heen heard of him i\\) to tlii't tim A. Y es. O. On tlie 21th Cim ler as ked vf)U to ''o an d see if you could llnd anvtliin;? .ihout mm AVIV lietween -A. I started and took the trail to Prince Alhert, the wire was tapi>ed al)(nit lialf T}at( )che. to see it anvtiuni liad I >een heard of him at Prince Alhert, l)efore inu' ivnv furtlu'r. W'iien ahout -'■'> miles out from Carlton, 1 met two messeni^ers with a note for (,'i'ozier ; T opened the note and found that it was a note from inspector Moll'att, .statin-' that lie heard 1 le was at tiie sontii liraneii. and that he expected him hack that iii^dit. I found out that he had reached Prince AUu-rt ; 1 saw liim iind told him tliat I was .sent hv major Cro/ier. I then rerurned to Fort Carlton, travelliny- all niirht and i^ofc II ito Carlton about four in the afternoon. O. With Ce.l. Ii'vine ? .V. No, I left him. 'L'liev ha-1 i iiade a march that dav of abiiiit seven miles, and he t JMitchell's i)rovision.s. They said there were a great many there. 1 asked whevlier they were at Duck Lake, they said yes. They said we had better go back. I turned arouml and went towards tli(> sleighs, as J was getting near lo tlie sleighs, a party of perhaps .">() or 10 of (hem very excited, came upon us ; they were yelling and H'lurishing tlKsir rilles : they were very excited. Gabriel Dumont was of the party ; he was \erv excited, jumped • •tr his horse and loaded his i-ifle and cocked it. and vamw up to me and threatened to blow out my brains, he, and .some others threatened tf) use their rifles ; 1 told them to'.)Q (juite, that two could play at the game, Dumonv talked very wildly, he wanted us to surrender. He said it was my fault that the people wei'(> not assisting them, and that I was to blame for all the trouble. J told him that we could not surrender, that I thought we had the best right to this property. Some of them jumped otl' tlinr horses and went into the sleighs. T rode u]) and told the teamster to hold on to his horses. They made one or two atteiiijjts to snati'h tin.- lines, linally he tired his riile o\ cr our heads ; they all stepjied oft' the I'oad and we went on tlu; roiid to Carlton. <^. Had any of the men got into the sh.'igh.s ? .V. Two of them went into oik; sleigh, and thev went to a second team to trv and ''et the lines. <.,>. Then there was nothing, but the one shot tired .' - A. That i.> all. Q. You. returned to (,\irltoii '/ — A. Yes. (,,|. How many teams had you on that occasion ?- .\. Seven or eight. C^). How many policemen ? A. A policeman in each team, sei'geant Stewait and j-ome othcr.s, <,>. How many altogether ?- -A. 1 o or IG ; there were -Jl' of us altogether, 1 "i police- men, I think. Q. You returned to Carlton '] — A. Yes. Q. What time did you get tli(>r(> .' - A. Aiiout ten o'cKick. Q. In the morning I — A. Yes. Q. What di. ]\rajor Cro/.ier was in eonummd ? A. Ves. Q. Were there any sleii,d)s / -A. Yes. (). H ow were tl le men Some miiunted and sonu; m sleiohs. U. What is the distance from Cai'lton to D uc Li iKe A. Aliout 1 1 miles. (}. Did you join and .^o h with tnem A. ^'es. the w hole party. <.>. Til IS would lie on the -ilitli A. Yes. We went until we came to a house, alxait four miles fi'om Duek Lake, when the luivanee icturned and reported that tliere Mere some Ind 1 ins HI the house 1 lifliexc it was Ix'ai' dv's 1 louse Ic was 111 th(' 1 louse, (.). W IS it upon his reserve A. Y( (,>. Well ! A, The interpreter went over and he came back airain. I do not know what occurred between them. We went on and when we <;ot to the same jilace where 1 returned back that nior in the morniiu nui"', we saw the at th dvanc(^ uuard cominiir over the hill, in the same wav a.- Q, Was the advance reti rni A. Y es, a ttl tl lere was a number ot men toilowiu;^' them (X ..Vbout how mai y A. I aunot te 10 same tl Pl ace as in the moi'iniiii', and you, tney were comu \>' o\er the hill and they were scattered all alonu; the road ; there appeared to l)e ([uite a number of them. ISIajor (.'rozier told us to unhitch the horses and make a barricade, and take the horses to tlie rear, when they came near; witliin half a mile, they made use of a blanket as a tlau". Q. White blanket? — A. Yes. Cri>/.i(M' went out and called his interpreter, and tin; th e ni<>antiine, they were two parties came near each other. They be<;an to ta.lk ; in running on the road getting behind us and behind the hills, Q. They were changing their positions .' A. Ves, Q. Well, what then '. A. While placing the sleighs, 1 heard some one calling out that they were tiring upon us, and let them have it. ] said : Wait till we get hurt. Just then, I turned my head kind of that way and saw Major Crozier lift his hand in the direction the firing was from and he said : l"'ire now. And the tiring began then, and there was (piite a skirmish for thirty or forty minutes after that. t). How lony; did it last ? -A. Thiity or forty minutes. I did not take time in con- sideration. g. H <«v many were kill ed on your side A. ^\'e left ten men U'lon le fu lait one of them was wounded and turned up afterwards. Q. Wlio was that ?— A. Xewett. Q. The otlier nine .' — A. Were dead. One mounted policeman was killed and seveial were wounded, two died just after ■"••e got to Carlton (.;>. You brought two back with y( m A. One, the others died after we LCot back to (Jarlt on. Q. >Vliat time did you get back to Carlt ook in tlie afternoon. on A. It must have been about f our 24 i). How 111, my weft' killcil on tlic otlu'i' side, you did not know at tlic time.' — A. Nc . Dui'inL;- tilt' tMii;ai;fnioiit. how iniiny men would you JuiIlji' to lie (>ni,'aiit^d upon tl le otli(M' side? A. \\\' could not sec tluMu. I cannot tell tliat : sonic were in tlic house, .some were lieliind the iiills. There were two sleighs with two Indians in each liehind us, and one Indian who was mounted : that was the Indian tliat was talkiiii; to .Major Crozier ; lie was killed when the firiiiLf lieL;an. (.^>. Would your olis(M'\ations ena'de you to say liow many were ein,'"-'^<1 U|>on the otlier side .' -A. 'J'lie road seemed to lie ju'ctty well co\ ered with them. (.}. Can you form any idea as to the number? A. The road was straight and tliey I to cover a i^reater space than mc covered, liut 1 cannot say as to the nunilier ; seemec til ley seemed to covim' a greater spiice that we did. i-i. Y(ni cannot .say the projiovtions of Indians and llall'-lireeds ? A. 1 cannot say. I ,sa\v five Indians, these Indians liot ludi ml us. one ot tlieni was K'Ulei dlh *). You did not r- 'cogni/.e any of the people that were there A. I (in! not rccoitnizw any person. Q. ~Y —You returned to Carlton and not th(>re ahout fi oui' o clot k. A. ^' . Wli it did you do then .' -.\. They wei-e some time attendinu' the wounded. Col. Irviii'" yot in ahout an h(nii' after we u'ot in and I think it was that afternoon or tlie next morniii" that he decided to leavr- (.'arlton and u'o down to Prince Albert. (,>. I) id \ou iX" with him A. Y es. Was (.' irltnn hurned ? ~.\. Yes, ! lielicxc it toolc lire accidi-ntly and part of it was Ijurued then . What distance is that .' .V. It". <» I) Ul \oU ''o With him to I' mice I oi' .')() miles. Albert >. \. Y( ^>. What day was that ? A. We left on th o'clock, and we i,'ot down that evening;. moriiin;.i- <'f the I'Stli, about one or two I 1 <>. You rem lined at Prince .Vlbeit durin-- the rest of t <}. You ha\e told me all vou km>w aliout it? A. Y'es tl le relifllKjii A. Y ia\t' omitted. When Mitchell iiiti oilucecl me lere may be somethiiii;- that to the lU'isoner, he asked .Mitchell wliether I came of my own accord or whetJier I came with him. When lie heard 1 came witli him, In- sai(l I was entitled ti^ the same protection fis he was. but if I came of niv own accord, lie would look after me, or .something; of that kind. The prisoner said I was entitled to the same j>rotection ns he was. that *). Is thcr" anything;' (dse that you .-cmember? — A. No, I cannot remember evei'v t tool' 1' I do not remeiiilier anvthiim' e!v liiniT J'y ^Ir. ( :i;!:i;\siiii;i,j>s. <•. Till' tiist time that v lu met the prisoner was in tln' council chambei' .' -A. Y e.s. «.'. A nd betoie that \'ou ne\er saw liim ? -A. N( (i>. Xor did vou see him after (hat till in court ? -A. I saw 1 was first broin^dit into court. <). You had no conver.sation nor d to(;eneral Middletou? A. No. lim in court, when ho Id vou sec him from that time till 1 lis surrender Q. Y^'ou ne\(T had any personal ipiarrel or trouble with him lief ne\-ei' liad ore an\- I'ommunu'ation with him. -A. No. I 'he til away fi airain. hid lie or some I iiere a] uas (jiiic aiiccs rp( and he s; been yrai ^^ith Jiiiii K>. \ (,>. T (.'. \) i^".-!!! to kl '.». I» ~A. Ye. ■■^'•nt forwa I'liiiioni s ''"■111 ; III,- inuf ;ci-. <.». T 'l^llts of (I W(. n('\,.|. . Ill <•.'• 'I'll . Tell us what he said when vou were first introduced and shook hands with I iim. hid he speak lii'st or did you.' A. I .-pok«> tirst. 1 told him that we would shake hands ill- somotiuny' to that efl'ecr, and hi' said yes. Q. Xow, what did you lii-st hegin to talk with ' ahout ? — A. 1 told him, I s.iid : Thei'e appears to lie ,i;reat excitement hcvo. 1[(! saul no excitenn'nt at all, everytliin;f was (|uiet. or somethini,' like that. i). '^'ou said soniethiii'4 ahout lii> hiniiiL,' sjioken aliout w.-.ntini; to iri :.eir '^'I'iev' ances re(h'ess('(I ! A. Yes. 1 think I said there seemed to l»e a numher ot men armed' and h<» said that they had heen askinu for their I'li^hts for fifteen years, and th<>y had not lieeii eranted, and they had decideil to make a demonstratit)n. (}. Did you ha\'e any conversation as to what the ri^dits wei'c '.' A. No, 1 had not with him. i). W'Ikuii did you talk alxuit it with'.' A. The rest of the peo])le that were in. tj. 'I'hat is the council .' A. ^'es. (,'. What was their statement to vou reuardiiii,' their i'ii,dits ? A. Thev did not set ni to know — th;it tli^y were entitled to scriji and never i/ot it. i}. Did they s])eak of having" made any petition to the (Government for their I'in'lits -A. Yes. We discussed the matter. I had taken part myself in the ])etition that we .sen t forward. and Ml ew mon> ahout it than thev did. It came out in this wav, (Jahriel Ihiiiiont said that i had taken no inteii'st in the matter liefore : that 1 never ad\ised them ; tliat it was oi ilN' now. w hi'ii m:i tiers had yone so far, that 1 ach ised them in the mat icr. U. That waN reiiroa clun;;' vou dec ause vou had Ween instrumental in yettinif the lights of the lialf-hreeds the Kn^lish iialfdireeds? A. We were entitled to scrip, hut ■.VI' iie\-er yiit it yet. (..>. ]la\"e viai y'ot it since A. i). Th(>re is a commission sittinj:' now '. A. Yes, (J. Itiel said that the only an'^wcr they uot to every petition was an increase of liolici' .' A. Ni ^). What was on the talile when you went into tlie council ehai dishes and some s|ioons, some fried hacon and some hannocks. niicr A. Some tin < ). Any Kl )o(! ill the dishe ?\ o. I (lid not see an v. < >. Will vou swear that there was not 1 \\"\\] vou swear that some of them were not eatini;- cooked lilood at the time A. Not that I .s; iw , (}. How hni.e- aftiM- the conversation with him did he use the words "he wanted lilond " ? A, He left me and came hack ai^'ain, it was then he said it. . In what position was he at that time ? A. Standin,^ striking- the tahle. 2G Q. Wliat dill tlif prisont'i' say to y. Vou did not Lfo as you [ileased ! A. Ves, I did. ■;^ C^). Was tliat liet'ore or after llie eon\ fisat ion aliout tlie lilood took place; was it liefoT'c ijiel had (old you he wanted lilood and that you were t'ree to go?- A. it was lic- f'ore I had anv eomersation with him at all. (}. The first Ihiny' he did on iiein;;- intindueed to you was to assure you that you were at liUerty .' A. ^'es. (.^. You had no t'cfir hut that you wen' at perfect lilierty to return ?- A. It did not make any (iiU'ei-ence to m(\ <^. After teliiin;' yon that ymi were at [lerfect lilierty he sjioke to'you of his desire for h A. V es, certanuv d you ci\illy .' A. No : he made use of languag'o to me that was mwt'i' ln'foi-e used to nie. (.». D (1 t I >iil he ha'. (■ any cnuvei'sation w ith you as ui the oliject of the reliellion ? -A. He said taev wauled tlicn' ritihts. (). Did he ;eil vou anvtliiim al'MUt the administration of the Noi'ih-W'est Territories ? A. No. (). .M.out a new Church .' A. N. O. cousi'rsation aliout either ol these matters A. .N. (i>. When he called for lilood was it aft came hack and called for hlood. er he went worn. examined liv .Mr. lUirluidg.-. t^). You reside at Priiue Albert ? -A. Yes. Q. Ifow long Jiave you resitled tliere I A. Aliout three years. Q. What is your occupation ? - -A. Civil Kngineei-. Land Surveyor and Explorer. ii. In Marcli last you were employed l.y .Mu'or Cro/.ier ? — A. I left witli volun tecrs to go to Carlton. Q. How were you employed :'— A. As voluntcu', and tluMi I was 'ised as a seout. Q. What time in March ?— A. About the iStli :\iarch. Q. How long were you a scout ?— A. I was scouting througli tlie French settlo O tll< iVllS It 'US lic- it you lid not ; (IcKin- what 1 [is hoiul ,ed. Hiul ;(> to Ulf ritovics 1 AVivy and used ? 27 iiH'iits, tlif llfilt'-lirct'd s.'tdfiiiriitsaud tli.' ri'sfi'v c till two o'l-loek on tlir iikh ninj;- of t'.i L'tith. (.>. W'cic voii all luc A, Part of th." time. l'iir> of the (iiiic II. 1 toss was wit II IIU' i^. You posted a [iroclaniatioii ! A. "S'cn, 1 jnisted a in'ocliunation from Cpoziev, Iclliu;,' those who liad been forced into rei.ellinn that if tlieyj,'ave themselves into the charge of the poliee they w(tald lie protected. I posted tho.se a.s far as Lepine's and hack' ' y the other road, in the most conspicuous places where T thou,irht tliere would he a •liance of their hein'' se( d tl the road afterwanls that these not n, one in r.iiLjIisli and t!ie otl\er ni rrendi. I notu'cd ni passne. Ires were nearlv a 11 tor n down. 1 went o\ er the roai i.n th(^ mornini;- of the L'tith, to see if the r'reiich Half-lir^-eds were tiyiu;;- to intercept .Major Crozier. Hoss was with me. We were a)>out the place where tlie '.attle t W;lS aliitut thirty or foriv vards on anead o f 1 Coss and an Indian sui Idelil II I \- nun ped alon,i,'si(le of i uid pointed his lille or sJK.r ,y;iin at my l.reast. I turned around to see it niy p u'tiier was prisoner to). I saw sixteen or twenty of them all armed, and. as h to ijive up i|ui<'tly. (J. Who appea tint he w,is, and that there armed, and, as lie was captured lirst, was some tlioimht it was liest re(l ro oe tin leailcr o f tlii^ jiarty .' A. (lahri Uimoiit. Tl lei-e Were U)out IG or L'O of them, part I lalf-hreeds and part indi Duck Lake and put in the Tele:,rraph ollice till the morniiiy ]ilai 1 outside; tin; luiildiii;;- that: niLdit. Alhert .M l)uck Lake at that time. uis. W were taken to and ail armed 'uard was oiikma.n seemed to lie m ciiaruc o f (> II ow man\' men won Id I. >U( l.ak e at that time takinii- into consideratioi tl lere removed upstairs, in what had heen Mit lose who Were actiiin' as outside i^uari A. so or ItMI. that i-^, I. 1 11 the morning' w e ciieil s House. (,*. hurinij; that day did anv moj-:' come m A. After w e were iilaced uiisi:: us. it of 1 fidfdireeds and so T idiou*' noon oi- shoi'tly hefore, a h with the prisoner in command, that would lie sona- time alioiit noon. line 1 iioians t'ame 1 roni (.). T le accused was in command, how did vou come to that coiicl lusion A. That moinin.i;' In^ inteiw iewed me and lioss. and talked to lis ; 1;(> brought I'xmrnt't with him, he seemed to ha\e control and asked the (luestions. I was down stairs afterwards for ii I w minutes, and I saw the prisoner mill;;- to the men to fall in line, and they fell 111 line (.). le was "u 111'' commands .\. Yes. U lilierty 1 dorc-r. ith volun- l sc out. (,V .\ft"r they were reinforced how mar.v men had they altoiictlier .'-- A. I should say a I II )ut 400, takiim- liotli Indii lis illUl df- ireeds. Q. II ow many hidians A. Ahout l.")0 hid lans a !to:_'ethe M> if -M; y^. Did you see any of the jirisoners on (he lMUIi ? A. l^asli, Tomjikins, Simpson, \(>an and Woodcock were lirou<4ht i;p into t!ie same room. We htard some report tl icKay liaNiinj; coiiu> ncjir tlie hmKiin:^'. and.iKMii'; orderec iiavl D umont. hi t.h afternoon, lookin,i,' towards the west, we noticed them runniniL,' towards Carlton. Shortly after that, all that w ore^tlicre, except what I would call a fair sizeil li'uard, who remained around the liuilding, went in the same direction. Shortly after the juisoners heard tiriiij,', [ myself did not h(>ar it, I^hoard the sound of a cjvnnoii, that is all I can swear to. hi aliout an liour or an liour and adialf, they returned lirinj,nnu' a wounded prisoner. Newett, with them ; lie'was shot throu'di the Ic; and hammered on the head with a 111 usket or somothiii!'. [ dressed his wound, ani. the prisoner came upstairs and talkt lis to lis ahout tlie Iia.ttle. He said that ourselves as prisoners n:i,dit ha\e been sent into 1 liaiuls to show future people in w hat way he had conducted the war, pointing to the woun- ded prisoner and .saying that he used tliat'man luiiiianely. He said the volunteers and the police tired tirst. J told him that from w hat I knew of ^^ajor Crozier, he did not intend 1 ^.f.^tle ^K ^" ^*''^ tirst, that he had told me .so. f suggested that perhaps a gi un liad gone otl' h\ i 2H ■iccidi'iit, ami tlio inlsoiici' (i(Imilt('(l tliut tli;it was pcrliaps so, luil that one shot causod the start. Il'> calli'd on his iiii-u in th<' name ot' (iiul or the Sii|prcinc itciiiif : "I say unto yoii tii'f," and he fxiilaiiit'd tliat thr troops wt'w 'icatcn i'V tlic liravcry of Ills own sol (IMTS. (). At this time u'cro tlio storos looted .' A. 'J'lu'V were not looted when we went thrrc, l)iit lioForc we h'ft thcv wovr cleared out. (^t. You wiM'e t dn treated worse. t.). Did thev take extra n alwavs a home yatard U ■ft recin UMUIUl til: tion at the time of l''isli Ci-eek .' -A. There was )uildin''.>. .lust aftrr the Fish Creek (i'dit, tin lans caim Ind tliju'dit as loi Kack I'' as i>arlier, an( I al; irmed me as rcjarded the Half-lireeds were tl lere, tl til" safety of tin? })risoners. I Indians could not i;et at us, luii if the iiomi iiiards were taken awav, wlien the Indians camt! luck irliei', they migu m issaere the prisoners. After the Kisli Ci'eek tiijht, I wrote to Riel tsking him for an interview, tint would lie aliaut tli.' Jtjtli of Api'il ; had a lomj; talk w ,; ii him ali.iat the [irisoaers. 1 t')ld him about the feai's I ■ntertained almut the Indians, and aslced him if he would allow me to sec! tie- (Jener.al or Ir\ ine, to try and elleet an excliani,'e. He refused to exelian,^'e. <,>. What did you say to him ' -A. I said : What do you want to koe[i us for ? I said : I sujipo.se you wish that if you or your council i;'et into (lanucr, you will want the jaisouers for that purpo.se. Riel said : ^'es, certainly. f said to him to allow me to go ami see either Irvine or the (leie'ral about getting an exchange. J said : You claim a victorv at I" isii ( ri'c! aiH 1 Duck Lake. And 1 .said : Let me and try for ter ms. He said that ln' had gained two victories. I asked him if he would not allow me to (b that. Ife .said : W e must Have ai lothf er iiattle, and lie sau I h the terms will be better. And lie said : If we loose it, the ter He said that after another battle, lie would allow ni:; to If we gain anotliei' battle. Ills will be the same as lunv. lio. From that day. 1 was waiting, expecting that another liartle would occur. On the last day, that would be tlu 12tli of M IV, he cam:? to the cellar and called niv i lam ' in .a hurry, aiu 1 as r ou was getting t, he tolil the rest of the prisoners tliit he was sending nh- to the (iener.il with that lae.s.sage. I think the papei' is tl lere ler Q. Is that the pa| (Paper shown to witness. A. Yi ■s, that is ti le messaife carne out tiiat morniii'' Q. Did you sev- the ))risoner right after that .' -A, \'es, right at tl le e(>uncil iliani'jor at IJatoche. At tin; same time that he wrote another message for .Jackson to t ike, I took the mes.sage to the Oeneral, f also saw him write that one for .lacksou. . Q. Is tliac it (shown witness) ?— A. Y'es, that is the one that .(ackson carried. Q. He gave that to Jackson the same time he gave you yours f— A. Y'es, at tl le same time ; .ireiKira lii.s o\v took a and I t ing iiie engiish or so |{ lie u !■( except . iind the li'riiis I a Ion:,' t not talk Finally abiiiit hi then Ikm some of '■'eiiei'al, lii'iiigstn iind ask( me (o ^r,.( ^>. 'I and ga\(. outside 111 (ill I ov,.,- (o whei'c |'n\clop(.. an of my 1 who had riHiHoil ]ai'ksii>sim1 to ','o out- wiiy ami tlic otliiT tlif other way. I roch' to the LTi'iienil with tliat on liofsi'lia<'k, liic [irisniifi' wmt witli iip' until he pfissed iih' thiou^h his o\\ 11 lines. I \v<'iit out, I'l'nchi'd i hi" L:i'UiTal ami ;;i\i' him the imlc ; he rend tlie note and to(il< a few miiiiiles to rniisidcr, I ,l^k(•(| hiiii to nriti- a nott- to l{ii'l. lie wrote that note and I took it, liaei< to itici. I tliiul; tli;i( iiod- is nmoiiv; the papers there. Instead ot' ul low- in;,' me to '^i) iiaek into tlic ci'llar tin- laisoncr inadr mi yd into the eliureli, and he put an em,'lisli speak inn' I lalf iirei'd and nn Indian to ^iiai-d t iir duiridi. Inaliout hiilt' an liour or so ilii'l ciiMed t'or nn' aL;'ain ami I wi'iil with hiin anion;;' the wonicn and tlic rhildren. Me wrote si'vcriil notes, Ijiit nonr of tliciii siriiu'd to plciis • him uml ]\r tore tlicm up, except one which seemed losuii him. I ^at lalkini,' with him till he had linislu'd uritiui;' and then I lie,:,fan to ask him '.\ lu'tlicr it womM not lie licttir to let mi- sec and try wjiat terms [ eould ;iet. 1 said that he could cniuc with iiic iiml seethe (Icneral. .\fter talking a lorn;' time he left me and came liack in a short time with (lahricl hiimont, lait iis I do not talk I'Vcnch I had to let the prisoner explain to ( lalirid w hat we wei ■ talkin;,' aliout. Kinally he said there was a <,'ieat deal to consider, it would then he a'lout one o'clock ; ali'iiit half past one o'clock he had nearly aicreed In wliat 1 pro|i(ised heslnaild do. Tiie tiriiii,' then liee;an and he at once turned to and asked me what that meant. I ti'ld iiim that some of the Indians must iiavc started ii ; I told him if he wonld write a note to the tJeneral, thanking' him and say nothin- aliout ti^htiii:;-, Imt lea\(? it to me, I would y;et tln^ lirini;' stopped if possilile, :inyuay I would see what could he ddiie. He then wrote a n(jto and asked me to take it. I askcil him to pass me t!iroui,di the lines, i^. Is thai the note (showini,' witness) .' \. That is the not(> just as an excuse for me to i^et the iirinn' stopped. (.}. That is tiie note .' .V. 'S'es. he wrot- that in a tent or in the oouiieil chamher and ,i^a\(^ it to nie ; lie went part nf the way with me tlirom,di his lines, in the position outside iiis own ritle pits, the liriii;;" was pretty hea\y. Itiel went down into a low plaeo till I overtook iiim, he was on horsehack. Some of his men had left tiie rille jiits and ifone to wjiere lie was. When I came up to him, Kiel asked for tiie note and put it into an en\('lo|ie. (). Is that the envelopi; .' .\. Ves. (,), Are those words the wordsliew roteupmi the envelope? -A. Yes, he took the note out of mv hands and wrote those words on the outside in my presence. He ordered the men who had left the rith^ (iitst<),i;o hack a.L;aiii and they went hack aloni^Mvitli mo ; i continued on. went to the (ieneral and .i^ave him tlii^ note. I did not (-all his attention to the memo- randum on the outsi and that he could come witii mo personally to the (Ieneral. Ho hesitated for a time. At last 1 said: There are not many minutes to waste if you want to call the council to,i,'ether, call them and let me address them. At last the jirisoner said ; " It is not necessary to call the council."' lie said ho would do as T wished. I said you acknowledgeyou hav(! the power to liiiiil(l l>i' lic|.t sat'i' till In- Inid :i fnir trill). . I>i(l 111' s|)iMk (ii ymi (if his i.-r-idiiiil siifcty ! A. ]{<■ had mtv liltic to siiy aliout till' I lait'-lirri'ds, lis t'lir as rt'^nrds hiiii-i'lr' srcnn'il llic luiiicipal iiltjcct. (). What did he asli yoti in rcnard to liim^i'lt' .' A. It' I would cniiIhIii wliiit iisl< he rail iii'isoiially liiiiisclf. He s'lid to iiic that wr kiii'W that lie iicm-i' rarricd ii rillc, of I'oiii'sc at the saiiii' time we had sccii him carry n ritlc on one ociasioii. I told him he ran no daii!,'!'!' as I could look at it. I |c siinn'cstcd that I shiuild liroacli the siil)jcct of the Chiircli to the (Iciii'ral, and it would :,'ivc him a chance to liioach the sulijcct when lie came to lie interviewed hv the (Jcmi'al. lie would ,sav that he was not to lilaiiic, that the colliicil uas to Maine. i^ ^i- I >iiiiin,' 1 he time (hat you sa\s- the |irisoiier there did you see liim?^(;. At the IJatoche settlement. Prince Al'.iert and did'ei'ent parts of the Prince AUiert District. Q. Were you pre.sent at any of the meetin!,'s .'— A. I never attended any. I was at Prince AHiert meeting a few minutes, liut 1 took no interest in it at all. q. A few minutes at Prince Alliert ?— A. Yes, just walked into the hall and saw the prisoner at the end of the hall. <.i>. \> hen did you commence to take an interest in him? — A. \VlH'n I went to Carlton as a volunteer and when I undertook scoutiiii:. Q. You went up from Prince Albert with the volunteers, how long did you remain at Carlton ? — A. About a day, and then T went through the settlement. Q. When you left Carlton, wheve did you go? -A. Past tlie Indian Reserve, Duck Lake, and through the principal part of the Krendi Half-lireed settlement. 1 didn't <'() <]uite to Batoche. " Q. You leturnod when? -A Some time, at night and some times in the day time. Ml :« fiiir illlOllt risk lie •ill.', of 111' run (it' tlif lien 111- Imt tin- .1 ! A. M tlllMll. Id siiiih; li,!,'lit, it •li;l1lll>l'r coniin;,'. I .)f tho ,H'? -A. thllt NVIVS CIV loose lis in tilt! liini,' was to tlio troops li< ^). Dill. vniiMc 111. • prison. •!• iit iJatorli,. • .\. Till the I'diji I diil not . t.. I'.aforli oHcr i - low liini times. ■.,ert and I was at saw tho \vt>ut to )u remain ive, Duck lUdii't go ay time. (). N o\v you WIT.' piisniHT, w 111) took yoii priMiiier.' A. Si\t ei'M or tweiitv Uiilf- lireed-i took iiie. (i.il.riel Diiiiiont \\;is in I'lmiue of llie seoiitini.' piirt\ . How loiii,' were yoii pii,.ii.T ir't'or,' vol ,;i\v Hid and liis iiie,, .' A. Kroni two (t'elo, k that nioriiin'4 till nlioiit nooii ilic mhih day ; tint is, when he eiinn- in pj'i'sou from ISatoelie. ii. How loiiu- was he at |)iiek Lii;e Kefore vor, siiu hiiii .' A. I viu 1 iiin eoiiiin'' 111 and not see th.' yan the yard. i). V\'as 111' the lir^t man that ram • intu t h^' yard ,' - -A. Y'oii .-i li.' was th.' tirst man I noticed, I kn^w hini li\ si'^ht. i}. W.'le th.'re othei's liesidcs him .' A. Yes, i). Was he inixeil wiih the other, .' A. Nc he was more udx aiieel than the others lie was l)y liimselt'. Q. Ifow was he dresM'd .' -A, liar;,'e ehcek eoiimion lookin;,' trousers as well us I rmnemher, alioiit the same kind oi' tweed he wore most of the time. Kiel was never very jcvrticuiar about his dress. <,>. How loii;r x\as he there liet'ore In- eiiiie In inter\ iew yon and the other prisoners ! A. 1 would say it iiiiitht he perhaps half an hour. Q. I)id he eomc to see you vv did he send for you .' A. He came to see Jluss ami fiiy.sidt'. (i). To whom .lid he address himself liist ' 1 do not know, 1 mav ha\e iii'en the loki'sman. (,). What did you say *o him ! A, 1 di.l not tell him exaetly what I was th.'re f( I !,'a%t' him an.ith.'r storv. or. <). What was the story,' A, That 1 was travellim;- tlii'ouijli the eountrv makiii;' the iioto. ^1 iuijuiries if the outtlt was st.)pped at his lieadimarters. us |prisnm»iM. A, Mvsi'lt', l.iisit, till' iwii Tiniikiiis, Kiiss, McKciui (,). W fi'i' till- WDiiiiil.'il )M'i.snin'»'s will) yuii III fills tiiiii' ? A. ( 'IimjI'i- N'mM-t i I k iiiiii A. Ilt'iiskril llilil ulii'tiicl' ill' klH'H till' Hull. iiilvM'i'lh Cliifk WHS iiiiioii« tin vnliiiitciTs. liiiit uas tlic piiiiii|iiil tiling. i}. hill lu'u'iv"' ilin rtiiiiis Imw tlif nmuiiuIi'iI iiiar. wiis In in- ti'catfd .' A. Ilf let'! tliat ill iiiv liaiids. Ilr lii.|ii'il ami i'\|ii'rti'd I wmild dn tin- lii-,t I .■mild fiU' tlif vsnmidrd iinsimcr! (^. Yoii siiv Villi Ui'iT s|ii'akiiin III hi 11 1 a coiisidi'ralilr I iiiif, did iir at t his t iiiii' strikf vmi as lii'ilii; I'Xritcd nr i'\iital.li', <>i was he calm ! \. I ii' ^vas .•nnj ruoiiLjii. a lid Ic chitrd at his \ ictni V. (^>. i»id 111' s)i('iik lit' disidim,' the Trriitmii's .' A. Hi" iiu'iiliuiu'd iilnuit tlir Halt'- liii'i'ds niakiii;;- rri'taiii I'laims mid tuld lis tliat wo had im laisiiii'ss in tiiiit, part of' tin- coiiiitry, tliat wo lifloiiuj'd to Caiiadii, and that tiiis coiiiitry lit'lonijcd to tlic Indians ami Halt' l.ivi'ds. ! did imt take luiicii intiTt-sl in wli:it in- was sayin;;, as I was dicssini,' tlir wiiiimli'd |iris(iiu'r. (^>. |)iil smi lii'ar him talkini,' (it ilcfi'atiir^ thr ( his ('niiiifiit that tihic,' A. Nnta- far as ih'ti'atim,' the ( I(i\ criimcnt is (•(iin'ciiird. ordinary riaiiiis were, and said that \\i' mi',dit liavc ln'Cii si'iit to sliow liow lu' comliiricd tlic war. (^>. 1 )o yiai know, did hi' say anyihiiin' aliout saviiintlic lite ot this woiindrd niiin .' A. lie said tliat hi! liiiiist'lt' liad stopiiod an Indian t'l'oin killiiiL:' tiiat man. I told him that was the I'tli'i't of raisini;- the Imliai s mid that was the w;iv llir Indians foiiijht, to kill I man wlicn lie was uouiiilnl (^). When li.'id you a com (>rMition v iih him ayaiii .' A. The next day I was (h iwn- stairs a shnit time, and 1 met him and had a talk with him aliout the Indians. I told liim it was a liad thini;' to ha\t' aiivthiui,' to do \\ itii the Indians. He said that Im could not liclii it, tliat lie was com|icllcd to use Indians could not control tlic Indians, I told Imii tliat he was aware tliat ii tl (). \\ ho was jircseiit at tliat convi isation .' A. I was iiy myself just t'omii lU' out lit le (II. 'ir. ti>. \\'er<' tliPi'o any others around ' .V. Sonic llalf-hrecds were stationed as i;uariI->. tliey were Krmed. Q. Ourinn' that occasion, i.r on any occasion, did he speak of the (.'Iiurcii or oi tlie |)oininion oi'''!Miada ! — A. Xo, nothing' of any inipoitancc, (except at liatoflio. i). Wliat did lie say at llatoche al)OUt liis (,'luircli ?- A. lie said lie wanted me in mention to tlic (icneral tliat lie was to he recoi,'nize(l as the founiler of the new Church, and that if tli(> sulijeet was inciitioiied to the (Jeueral he eouUl continue the suliject when lie met liim. i). What did you understand liy founding a now Cliurch? A. f understood itas i ■sharp trick to yet the up}ier-liand of tli(! unfortunate Jlalf-broeds. (^ Did you understand that before? — A. I looked upon it in that liylit. (i>. Were there other Ilalf-hreeds listeninL;' to this conver.sjitioii at Hatoclie? -A. Lois of them were standing around, l)ut only an odd one could talk English. He .spoke 111 El iiilisli to me. Q. Why did you tliink it was to get the advantage of the Ifalf-hreed.s ? A. I sidercil that he was using them for hi.s own end. con :;:{ M. 1 W I'ClK ' |r I. •it (iunil<'- liili.U,' oui '1 lis ^imriU. lurrli or "' ll.'. |nlc!l UK' t" Lu (."hurtli. lijt'l't Nvlifii Itood itivs I [,' spoke in |_-A. I oou <^>. hid you ciiii^idiT liis iirtioi.H I'L'Ociitrii: ,' A. lie si cii'til intflliyi'iit, nnd in iinniy \s nvH a cli'v IT iiiiiii. (}. W'liiit did yoii siiyto (iciirril Middlrton nliimt tlii> iiiiiii ,' A. I tnid tlir ( iniiTiil I'xai'tly wiml I kiioNV iilioiit tln' iiiiiltiT. (.). |)id you till tlir (li'Mi'i'.il lliiil ymi liad I'oiisidi'iulili' iiilliUMHT omt llirl, and lliat 11' was a siiii|ili' iiiiiidrd MiMii ! -A. No. Q. You liiiM' hud roiisidrra'ili' in do witli ilir workiii;:,' iiji ot' f\ idriiro .ii,',iiiist Uiid. — .\. Not tliiit I mil awari' itf. (i. Ilavi' you lii'i'ii ' iiLfULCrd in tlial liiii! for tin- last iiionlli.' .\. No* wnrkiiiy up i'\ idt'iK'i'. () Workiiii; up t III' iM.sc .' -A. No, I am licri' as a siiiipli^ witiii'ss, | im nut nioir t hall ihr ot hi'r.s. <^. Il.i\ I- you ;,'ivi'ii instnictioiis to tilt' ('I'owii ahout this jirosccution .' .\. Not in liny otht'r li;^hi. I Ljavi' im iiistnirtions, it would 1m' ratlnT slraii^r it' thry irrrivrd instruct ions trom inr. <■>. I lad voii anvtliiii''' I' I do witli |)ri'|)arin'.;' ot' tin- [laprrs ny i,'i\ ini,' int'ormatioii — A. Not in jirt'pariiiij the papers, I Iiuni' mdy ^i\rii my own int'oriiiatinn. 'i*. i)iil Rii'l aj)pcar to hav«^ 'oi'imi i'n,L;il;.;iMl in tiiis li^iil, or was he at'raid to tl;;ht ? A. .Vs t'ui" as I ruuld si'i' h:' was too iiuirli at'raid to run his ncrk into uiini'i'i'ssary dau'-'cr. Q. V oil wi'ii' not aru'iiH'd that \ou uni lid rrri'ivc iniui'v at tiir hands nt' IJiri nr tlii' Halt' l.rci'ds .' A. .\t the hands of iIh' I ndiaiis. Q. Not iiijui'y from Kiid .' .\. Not as f.u' as tin- lliilf-liri'rds wi'ri" ronccrni'd. I know liinl's i»i)j.','t in kri'piii;^ u/ 111- admittiMJ liimsidf that that was his oliji'i-t. <^. How many inti'i'vii'ws had you with (Irimral Middletoii alto^^'i'thcr .' A. t )ih' ill tho uioniiny. one a litth' afti-r tin- tin^ lii-Ljaii and one after. 1 could not i^'ot hack. i.i. How many iilto;,'etli(;r ! — A. Three. <^. Duriiii; that tiiiui you had made arraii;,'eineuts as to the surrender of Jliel to tain Moore. il When did you ,i,'o there, on the l>Oth I— A. On the ISth, I think. Q. On tile ISth of March you went there?— A. Yes. Q. Do you remcmlier the "JOth of iNFai' 'h' Were you doiiii,' anythinij; on that day in your capacity of volunteer? — A. Nothin;;- ; nothiiiy particular at all. Q. Wliat duty were you engaged in after you went to Carlton I — -A. Chiefly volunteer. 3 Avon 34 Q. Wliat description of duty ?— A. Just staying tlicro, waiting for an attack on Carlton. Q. How long did you stay there ?— A. I was there, we \vont there on Thursday, and 1 was there until the L'lst.' The 21st would be on Sunday— on the L'lst. Q. What did you do at Carlton ?— A. I saw Majoi' Ci-ozier, and he asked me if T Id go to Stoney Lake, between three and five miles from Carlton, and see certain English and Scotch Half 1)reeds there, and ask them to come into the Eort. Q. Did you go ! — A. I went and they came in with me. Q. When did you come in ?- A. We came in the same evening or about, I suppose. six o'clock that night. Q. Were you out after tliat again ?— A. On the following :\[onday morning T left with 5li'. Astley. I went out scouting on Monday. Q. Monday, the 22nd ? — A. Yes. We went to Duck Lake, and from Duck Lake we went to the St. Laurent church mission. Q. When did you go back to Carlton? — A. Tuesday night, about eleven o'clock. Q. On the 'I'M-d 1 — Yes, the 2;5rd, and on Wednesday, I stayed tliere all day, and about eleven o'clock hi the evening, half past ten or eleven. ^Ir. Astley said that Major Crozier wanted us to go out and sec if the Half-breeds would intercept Col. Ii'vine on the route from Regina to Carlton, and we went out. Q. About what time ? — A. Between half past ten and eleven, as near as I am judge. Q. On Wednesday night .' — A. (Jn Wednesday night, yes. Q. How far did you go ? — A. W^ell, .somewh(>re near where the battle of Duck Lake was fought, ;ind about a, mile or so between Duel; Lake and Carlton, close to Duck Lake. Q. Did anything happen there ? — A. We were taken prisoners by Cabriel Dumont and between sixty and one hundred men. Q. Did you know any of those beside Gabriel Dumont? — A. 2S'o, I couUl not re- cognize any. Q. Will you describe how you Avere taken prisoner? — A. I heai'd a sort of noise behind me. The horse at lirst drew my attention to it by picking up his ears, and a sort of stopping, and I turned around and saw a body of men behind me. and I called Mr. Astley 's attention to it, and I wheeled my horse around and T was surrounded by Half- breeds and Indians. And he tuld me to dismount. Gabriel l)umont came to me and recognized me, and said how are you a scout, and he told me to dismount, that I was his prisoner, and 1 refused to dismount, and they pulled me off the horse. Q. Were they armed ? — A. They were all armed, every one of them. Gabriel Dumont then felt my revolvei-, he felt it under my coat, he got ijuite excited and he went to take it away from me, and I drew the revolver out myself, and he held it, (witness showing how it was held holding his right haiul to his stomach) and I was covered by aii Indian on my right with a gun, and tliere were two more behind uie, Q. (runs %\ere pointed at you I — xi. Guns M-ere pointed at me. and ^^r. Astley called on me not to shoot, better hand o\ er the revoh er. Q. And did you surrender ?" A. I did. Q. And what was done with you ?— A. We were taken to Duck Lake and put into the telegraph station. Q. What was the aspect of Duck Lake, at thi;- time?— A. Full of armed men, all around the post. Guards all around the post. Where\er we were, in front of the building on the road, all around the building where we were imprisoned. 3o (^>. Wlu'i-c were you put?-— A. In the tele^'nijih otKcc. <^» Wliiit kind of II building is that'/ -A. A vory .sinnll Kuildin^. <,! How many stnrit's .' — A. A sniiill little liuilding, as large as an ordinary porch. (.}. How many stories ?- "A. One. <,>. Was there any body else in there, besides you and Astley ? — A. No. <.^. 1 suppose Astley was taken with yon '. A. ^'es, only tlie two of us. Q. How long were you kei)t there ? — A. Till aliout nine o'l'lock the next morning, as near as [ ean judire. Q. Did anything oeeur next morning ?- A. No, notiiing particular. Q. IFow long did you eritcheirs liouse. (,.). And the other j)risonfrs were sent up there too ? — A. They were sent up with us. Q. Did you .see any peojile about that morning? — A. Outside? Q. Yes ?— A. Tlie square was full of armed men all the time. Q. Was there a larger crowd there when the prisoners were brought in than there was in the forenoon before ' — A. Yes, there was a good many came over witii the other prisoners. Q. How many armed men did you see there altogether ?— A. J should say there would be between 300 and .loO men, as near as 1 could judge. 1 did not count tliem. Q. Of what nationality ? — A, French Half-breeds and Indians. Q. What proportion would be Indians? — A. I should say neai' 100, between 75 and 100. (.}. Did anything occur that afternoon ? — A. That afternoon the battle of Duck Lake took place. Q. How do you know '. A. We coidd hear the shots. Q. About what time ? A. About half past three or four in the afternoon 1 should say. Q. Did you see any of the men armed going? — A. I saw them all going, I saw about 300 going. Q. In the direction of the battle-lield 1 — A. Y'es, the first intimation I had that the battle was taking place was Alliert Monkinan coming upstairs where we were, and we asked him what was the matter, and he said there was a little tight going on, at that tinu! they were all going then. Q. All this armed force you had seen were hurrying in that direction ? A. Slurry- ing in that direction. Q. Did you hear any .>liooting and firing before going in Mitchell's?-- A. No, after that we heard ritte shots. 36 Q. Anytliiiig else"? — A. No. iiotliiii;L,' else, J did not hear the cannon, they had a cannon there. I did not liear tlie nun. Q. What occurred that afternoon, after you heard tlie tiring ?— A. Well, after we heard the lirin.y, al>ont half an hour afterwards, they came '.aek. some of them ciniie hack, .some of the men came upstairs, one Fiddler in particular. Q. Did you see the prisoner Kiel that afternoon? — A. Yes, I saw Mr. Kiel that afternc^n. Q. Where? — A. He came upstairs. Q. When? After the tirinji;' or liefoi'e? — He came u)i before the firing aiul he spoke to me upstairs. Q. What did he say? — A. He called me liy my name and asked me how I was. Spoke to me and said I need not be afraid, that 1 would not suffer at his hands, something to that effect. T forget the exact words that he said now. but then aftei- the li'^ht he came up. Q. And what did he say then ?—xV. The tirst thing he said was something about Newett, one of the men that was brouglit in as prisoner. Q. What did he say about that? — A. He said he thought he woidd be lietter with us than witli anybody else. We were his friends and we could look after hini better than anyliody else, and he put him upstairs and then he and Mr. xVstley were speaking something about the Ijattle. Q. Did you hear the comersation between them? — A. T heard the conver.sation. Q. What was it? — -A. J\i . Riel said the troops tired tirst. aiul Mr. . Vstley suggested that perhaps the shot went off* by accident, and Mr. Kiel said — well he did not agree with him for some time afterwards — he said i>ei'haps that was the way. Q. Did he say anything else? -A. And he said : When I heard the shot I called on my men in the name of God to tire. And he seemed (juite proud of it. Q. Did he say so? — A. Xo, judging from his actions, that is all. Q. How long did you remain in the upper story of ^litchelTs store? — A. Until the 31st. On the moiuiing of the 'Mst we were sent to Carbon. Q. By whom ? — A. By Mr. Riel himself. We cam- out in sleighs. "He said we Avere going to Carlton. Q. How did you go to Carlton ?— A. In sleighs. Q. Did you go alone? — A. Xo, seven of us altogether. Q. Seven persons ? — A. Yes. Q. Anybody besides the prisoner ? -A. The Indian and Half-breed guards. Q. You were taken under guard to Carlton ? -A. Yes, under guard. Q. How long did you remain at Carlton? — A. Until the :5rd of April. Q. Who was in command at Carlton?— A. Albert ^lonkman. (.^ Were there many men theix-? — A. About 1")0 to 200. (). .\rmed ?— A. All arnnwi. Q. You w("i-e kept there until what day did you say ? -A. Until April 3rd. Q. What was (lone with you then? A. We were then ordei'ed fi'om Carlton. We were called up al)out two o'clock in the mornin-'-. g. Ordered ui) wheiv?— A. For Batocjic. W,. were called up about two o'clock in the morning, and we starred ini llatoche, and \\1;mi wc were leaving, the t)uildin<'.s were set on tire. ' * Q. lowei' 11 the sec( campai' we wen ^. <.». Q. Q. Q. deei^. Q. collar ?- no cliani (,). hands la Q. ' saw him C». ' them. Q. ( understa Q. q. think it he came not com outside to go OUi Q. (I Q. than tha the Char II 'I the eel ■idvancii ■ •ellar. Q. battle 1- day or di and they m Q. Then th<" Fort was (hj.scrlo.l at the tiiiic you 1( (}. And they niarclied to IJatochf ? — A. Yes. ft ,'^A. Yes. til cv (Icscrtcii rl (,). What was (lone witli you wiien you reiic hed iJatoeli A. W e were ii'.it m lit. th<' lowei- Hat of a liouse owned l)y I'.aptiste Boyer for tliat day, and we were put upstairs on tlie second thit. C^). And how long did you remain tliere ? — A. We wei-e tliere till tlie end <>f the eainpaign. Tlnit was oui' jirisi^n at the time of jxjaee, and, if there was any excitement, w(! were shoved ii.to th»' cellar of an adjoining- liuilding. re yi)u put down into the celhu' ,'- A. three (..i' foni- times. Q. I few manv ti liies w( Q. Do you rememlier how loni; you weic there the last time . -A. .Vlunit ten day; Q. Continuously ? — A. Yes. Q. In the cellar.' -A. in ihe cellar. O. Hos n:any prisoners were there in the cellar? — -A. Sevei deep. Q. What was the size of the place ?—.V. Ahout sixteen fei et s(iuare aiu 1 nine feet Q. Any other {irecautions taken to prevent you escajiini; l)esides putliiiL;' you in ti le cellar 1 — A. Alway.s a guard upstairs, and the tvn\ KG chance of us escaping hy knocking tin ti'a]) u ) s\as ver\' well secured, so there N\as hand Q. Anything s hehind us. W '■re \-(>ii Miaekici 1 .' -A. We were tied dei'v ni^llt witli our Q. When di'l vou firsr sei- tiie laiMMier after vou were taken to Batoche .' — A. I saw him at ditlereiit til nes. 1 aw him (^\-er\- ilav of Q. j)id he say anvthing to you that day A. JU c iNime and oiieiied the liatcii in tiie cellar and called .Mr. Astley. Mr. Astlcy, he said, come \ip and stop the troops ad\ancing, for if tliey hurt any of our families we will massace all the }iri.s niers in the Ihi ceHai (,). That is wliat h A. Tliat is what lie said Q. Do you rememher Iia\ing any coip.ersation with tiie prisonerafter the Fisii (reek hattle ? — A. After the Fish Creek hattli". I rememher Kiel cuie time-l cannot tel! the day or date saving that they had gaineil two victories and they wanted to ga.in a third, and they could make hetter terms with the (lovernnient. Q. That was iiftei- the Fish Creek figlit ?— A. Yes ; aftiM- the -Jtth of April. (). Where were you eoiifined ut tliis time, in the cellar or i)i tlie liuildiiiir? — A. Wo were taken out ot' the celhir and we wiM'e in the liuildiny. Q. This was during one of his visits to you i -X. Yes, durini; one of his visits. Q. Was the Viuilding in wliieli you were eonlined attacked, or the liuilding above the cellar in mIucIi von were confined ? Did they attack it at any time .' — A. No, not at all. Q. Do you remember the shell f A. That was done by the troops. 1 tliink it was the eleventh of ]May therf was a shell went through the l)uilding. Q. Did you .see RicI shortly after that ? — A. I did not see him. lie came to the cellar- -the h h - -and asked me if we were safe, all safe. 1 knew his voice, and we said we were, and ■ saio ; I am glad to hear it. And he went out of the building and came back again. We • Ad heai' him walking along tlic floor, and he said: 1 forgot to tell you you had better can on ( yes, the rebels. Q. Did you see Riel with them ? A. No, not going away, I did not see him. Q. If he had been there, of course you would hav(( seen him 1 — A. I saw him outsidf'. Li. When they were going away did you see ]\[r. Riel with them, going away to Duck Lake .'--A. 1 dill not. Q. Had he lieen with them vou would ha\ e seen him, would vou not? — A. I miffht not. There was a big crowd going awiiy. Q. There were -'^UO going out ? -A. Yes. Q. And you say they were half an hour away, half an hour elapsed from the time they left till the time they came back ?— A. About half an hour, I should say, perhaps a little more. Q. When ^Ir. Riel saw you in ^litchell's, the first thing he said was that he was glad to see you ? — A. No, he did not say he was glad to .see me. He said : How do you do? You shan't sutler. (.). Who wanted you to go down to the cellar at the time you were ])ut in the cellai' at Batoi'h(\ who put you there? — A. We wci'c down diifcrent times. At one timt^ or twice Delia'me, aiKjther time it was a French Half-lprced, his name 1 IniAe forgotten. Q. Neitlier of those times was Riel present when you were put down in the cellar 1 — A. No, he was not. Q. At the time you asked to go outside for exercise, Riel said to you that you hafl better not go out because the Indians wanted to kill you, did he not? -A. He did not. Q. Did he not give you to understand, at that time, tha^ that was the rea.son ? — A. He did not. no Q. Did you not know that was the reason ? — A. I had a sort of idea, the Sioux were rathci' dangerous at that time. Tt was not from any information from him. <.,>. Vou knew veiy well the i)rotectors you had there were the ITalf-lirceds as against the Indians ? — A. Certainly we did. We looked to the Ilidf-hreeds for protec- tion. P.y Mr. Scott. <}. You say, ]Mr. Koss, that flahriel Dumont was the leader of the party wjio took you prisoner? — A. JJc was. Q. Did you see liim afterwards ? — A. Yes. Q. Where? — A. I saw him at Batoche. I saw him at Duck Lake. 1 don't re- mend)er whether I saw him at Carlton or not. Q. Did you see any others of tlie party who took you prisoiun' afterwards? — A. One Indian, that is all I can remember. (}. Then (lahritd Dumont formed part of the same party that you saw Riel in com- pany with aftei'wai'ds ? — A. Certainly. Pktuh Tompkins, sworn, examined by Mr. Ca.sgrain. Q. Where did you live in the month of March last ? — A. Duck Lake. Q. Do you remember the ISth of ]Maixh last ? — A. Yes. Q. What hap[>ened on that day ? -A. Nothing particular ha])pened on that day, till towards evening. (). Well, what happened towards evening? — A. Towards evening, I was up at the mail station, and the telegraph operator came up there for me and wanted me to go and repair the line, the telegraph line was down. Q. Well, what did you do 1 — A. I told them I would go. Q. Did you go ?— A. I did. Q. Well, what liappened ?- -A. I went and got a horse and rig and tried to get another man. I had consideral)le ditliculty in getting another man, and finally I got my hor " and brought him to Duck Lake to the telegraph oHice, and the miller, Air. McKean, vol .nteered to conie along with me, and the opei'ator got a message that we were to start for Duck Lake at 1 li o'clock at night, start about uiidnight at Duck Lake to repair the line. Q. You repaired the liiie didn't you? — A. I repaired the line, in two different places. Q. Well, what happeiunl to you after you repaired the line ? — A. Wlien we were repairing the line, there were about 30 Half-breeds came rushing down on us and arrested us. Q. Did you know any of them ? — A. Yes. Q. Wlio were they ? — ^A. I knew the man that was in charge. Q. Who was it? — A. Jo.seph Delorme was one of the men who arrested me, and Jean Haptiste Pareuteau was the othei'. Q. What did they do with you ? -A. Tliey told us to surrender in FrencJi, at least that is what T uiulerstood them to mean, and they look us down by Walter and I'.akers store. Q. Well, did you see anything strange at Walter and Baker's store ? — A. I saw them going through the store, looting everything there was in it. 40 Q. Who \v!is iio\n. That WO'.;;,! l.e the 19th ?-^A. Yes. Q, Wh.cre sve." you taken to then. ? A. We were taken to the eiuireh, across the road. Q. What was the ehureli used for at tlu' time you wer(i taken there ? — A. It ap- ])cared to li(> u.sed as a council room and liarracks and prison, and a restaurant and every- vhing else. Q. Well, whom did you see there ? -A. I .seen a whole ehureli full of people there. f knew some of tln^n anrl sona^ of them I did not know. <}. Were the i)eople immiu '. -A. ^'es. C). Were there any Indians there? Yes. Q. What took place when they took you to the cluu"jh ? Was there anything done there by the rebels whf»m you saw ? — A. Yes, they brought some freighters tliere, and the , prisouei' addressed tlie peoi)le there. Q. ^Vhat did ho .say ? — A. Well, he spoke in French, and I did not understand what he said, except towai'ds tlie last. The last thing he said - 1 understood him to say, to tell his men — he a.sked them what was Carlton or what was Prince Albert ? They are nothing. March on my laave army. \ undei'stood him to say that. <^. You heard the prisoner say that? — A. I understood the pri.sonev to say that. (t>. To a crijwd of jieople who wei'e standing before him ? — A. Yes. *.}. Was this in the churt'h or outside the church? A. In tlie church, he was .ad- dressing them fiTim right in front of the altar. Q. Well, who appeared to be the lead(>i' of the crowd there ?---A. The priso;ier. Q. Did anything else take place in th(> church that flay ?- A. Yes, we had our dinner in the church. .\nd there were two men tried or I understood them to lie tried. Q. Who were they ? — A. Tried by the prisoner. Q. What foi-? -A. For not being with him and his movement. They were William Uoyer and Charles Xolin. Q. Well, were they acquitted or sentenced, or what l)ecame of them ? — A. 1 don't 41 know what Ikh'hiiu' of Xoliii. f did'nl licm' liis trial, I>ut I'.oycr ^Ir. Piicl had a talk- wit li, and wIkmi lie was (Inoii/^di talkiii^Lf, Mr. liuyer sixj'.cc in liis own dct'cuse, and tlio prisonci- said that instead of it heinjf a dishonor to liini, it wa;-; an lioiior. I understood him to sa) so, he? was talking; Frcncli. (i. It was an honor to wlioni .' A. To I'.ovei', Q. Was tliis ti'ial carried on l>ct'ore liiel only or ln'fore any others aetini; witli liini ? — A. Iliel was standin;,' on the platt'orni, and IJoyer stood up t'r(jin among us men and spoke in liis own det'ent'c t'roni there. \>. Did you hear or see anything about t , a couueil while you were in that church ? — .V. Y't,'s, I understood them to he electing- a council there. (). Did you see the council electetl .' A. Yes. Q. Who were the councillors?- .V. I can name some of them, I can't name them all' (). Name some of them ( A. (Ial)ri. Well, was this lK>fore or after this ti'ial took [)l!i.ce ? .\. I think it was after the trial took place. Q. Well, where did you .i;d fi'om that church .' !iow long were you kejyt there- — -A. W'c where kept there till aliout niiu' o'clock the jiext evening, and then we were sent down to (laruotV, place. Q. Philipjte (jiarnot's place ? — A. Yes, (}. What capacity was he acting in do you know ?— A. !Te was acting as secretary to the council. Q. To Riel's council? -A. \''es, we were told that we would he sent down there, and there would he a few men sent with lis to look after us, that our word of honor would he taken that we would not escape; so ahoui iiin(> o'clock that evening we were sent down there and there was ahout in the neighhourhood of lifteen men came do\\ n to see whether we kept our word of h.onor. atoch<>.' A. To r)uck Lake. (}. Did you go there of your own free will .' — A. Xo. (,>. IFow were you tid. Of armed men ? -A. Of armed men, yes. Q. Where were you i)laced at Duck Lake ? — A. We were hurried upstairs into >ritcheirs residence. Q. ITilliard Mitchell's house ?— A. Y^-s. Q. Did you meet any bcxly upstairs? -A. Y^'es. Q. Whom did you meet ? — A. Harold Ross and . J olm Ast lev. Q. The witness Ross who has just been heard 1 — A. Y'es. Q. And what was done to you there or what took place while you were there? A. Ju.st as wo were coming to Duck Lake, ^^Ibert Monkinan galloped out of the yard 42 and came to inept us, and lit> ordtTfil liis men up to tlic front und hi' said llu^ police are comini; troiii Carlton. He ordered some men who were with us to the front, that the police there coininjj; from Carlton, and in Cree, at the same time, he called for us again and wanted to know who had liis gun in oui' party, and then the man that was driving the team, the sleigli that we were in, jiut the whip to his horses and got in as (juick as ho could, and then we were taken upstairs. Q. And what happeniied while yon were up there ? -A. Well tlien, when wo were up there, we coulil see ipiite a few of them going oH' towartls Cailtnn. Q. Quite a few of the F^alf-l•reeds ?— A. Of the Ifalf-hreeds, yes, and Indians. Q. And how many weie there going oil' altogether .'-A. I sujipose jtrohahly over 400, all that went. Q. This was on the L'Gth day of .AFarch. was it ? - A. T can't sweai' to the day. Q. It was in the mouth of March last? -A. Yes. Q. Well, did you hear anything while you were upstairs in ^Fitchell's house? — A. Yes. Q. What did you hear?- A. Well, I heard a cannon go oil' a couple of times, and then when the Half-hreeds returned, Kiel rode into the yard on horseback. Q. Tlie i)risoner rode into the yard on horseback ?— A. Yes, and turned his horse around to the hack of the building, and witli his hat he was waving and cheering his men, and lie thanked them. Q. He apparently came in witji them, didn't he 1 — A. Yes, he came in just along with thorn ; the men came with him, the men liehind him and some in front of him, and he waved his hat cheering and hurraliing, and he thanked Ste Marie, and St. Jean- Baptiste and 8t. Jo.seph for his victories. Q. l)id anybody come upstairs into Mitchell's house when you were there on that same occasion ? -.V. After night. Q. Yes?- -A. The prisoner came upstairs and before he came up, Charles Xewett, who was wounded on Duck Lake field, wn^ brought to the door and we helped him up. Q. Who helped him up? — ^A. The prisoners wjio were there. Q. Helped him into the room ? — A. (lai'not helped him up. Q. Carnot was there too ■' A. Yes. Q. Did you see 'iabriel Duinont around there?- -A. Yes, (ialiriel Duniont rode into the yard a little while nfter, I think it was after the prisoner had lieen cheering, he rode into the yard and said in (."ree to bring out the prisoners and kill them. (J. Well, you say tliat the ])risonei- wei "■. into Mitchell's house with those some time after the volunteer was taken up, did'nt y( .i ? A. Yes. Q. Did he say anything thei-e? -A. i'es, I don't renienilter everything that he said there, T remember him speaking to the wounded man. Q. Did lie si)eak of the light that had just taken place? -A. Yes, one thing he said about the light was th;it the volunteers oi- the police had tired a shot first. They tired first and whei\ they fired he said, he told me distinctly that he ordered his inen to fire : " Tu the name of the Fathei' Almighty, who created us, fire.'' Them is the words he used. i}. Did he say anything else at that time? — A. Nothing that I remember just now. Q. Well, dill anything take place at that time, did tho prisoner go down then, or did he come back ? —A. Afterwards lie went downstairs, and some time he came to see us. 43 Q. Wt'U, wliiit wMs lie doiiiL,' tliiTf t'l'Diii whiit you could sec? -A. From what we L'OuUl sec, 1 thuunlit lit tlif tiiiii' tliat lie wns runniiiii; tlic whole thiiii,'. Q. Whenever you liiul luiy roniimuiication to iiiakt- l(j anyliody, whom did you make it to? —A. Well, it' ever w<' wanted anvtiiing in jjarticular, we generally applied to Mr. lliel. Q. The prisoner ?— A. Yes. Q. Was any nu'ssage sent to anyliody at that time? — A. I wrote a letter home layself. v^. W«'ll, was there anything eiise sent f — A. There was one of our men. wiio was a prisoner there, .sent to Carlton with a message. Q. By wjiom ? — A. IJy the prisoner. Q. Who was sent ? — A. Thomas Sanderson. Q. What for? — A. lie was sent to Carlton to tell Major Crozier to send some men and take the dead fill' the tieid, to tell them they were allowed to take their men ell' tiie tield unnmlested. Q. Did the jn-isoner say anything further to you on that oc.a>ion ? — A. Noliiing that I can renieml)er just now. Q. Well, did you r<'main at huck Lake any length of time? — A. We icmained at Duck Lake quite a while till after the police left Carlton. We remained i>t i)uck Lake till a day or so after the police left Carlton. Q. Then liow did you go to Carlton ? — A. We were taken to Carlton. Q. By whom, by the Half-1. reeds ?-J5y the Half-breeds. Q. Then where did you go or where were you taken to? — A. AN'hen we left Carlton we were taken from Carlton to Batoche by Duck Lake. Q. Well, what took place at Carlton ? Did anything take place at Carlton lief(. re you left? — A. Yes, they had set Hre to the police stables before we left. Q. W^ho had ? — A. The Half-breeds, and the whole place ajiparently was on tire ; just as we got up the hill, we could see l>y the lire and smoke that there was more than one building on 'ire. Q. You say you were taken to Batoche. to where were yon taken at JJatoclie .' — A. To Baptiste Boyer's store. Q. How long were you kept there? — A. We > fre kept there till about tiie time of the Pish Creek tight, when we were removed to the cellar. Q. Who was with you at that time' — A. There was seven of us: Mi'. Lash. Mr. Astley, Mr. Ross, Mr. William Tompkins, Mr. McKean, and ^Ir. Woodcock. Q. Was there a guard over you? -A. Yes, always a guard over us. Q. W^elt, did you have occasion to see the prisoner during tlie time, dni'ingthe time you were there? — A. The prisoner used to come in and see us some times. Q. Did he say anything to you .' — A. Yes, he used to .speak with us excry ''me he came, pretty near. Q. What was he doing there that you could see of him '? -A. P)-omwliat I could see of him I thought that lie was aj>i>arently the leader. Q. Well, did you hear anybody giving any orders there? — A. (li\ing orders? Q. Y''es, giving orders ? — A. Yes. Q. Whom ? — A. i heard the pri.soner ordering his men to go on gnaid one night. a <>. W'fll, it aiiv nidcrs wnc u'i^"'", wliu i^uvf tliciii. will" wri'f tlifV uivtMi Ipy .' — A. The iinlors llwit I lu'ard ,i;i\»'ii wcic yiNcii IfV tin- [)ris(iiii'r. i). Well, (lid vol! Ntav at liai.tistc I'miv.t's Imus.' all tlic tiiiif .'—A. \N'«' sliiyt-tl tlicrr until we \\i <». II. > ■rn I'cuiDVcd to t lie ucllar. w loll'' wci'c Villi 111 111 llif ci'llar A. I dull I IT dlcit liow lul !■' \Vf Wt'l'l' ill tlif cellar ; tlic lirst tinir we were Iccpt tlnTc t'nr sc\rial Imurs. <^>. Were VdU al lilicrty to r were y.n', t icd ii|i oi- liow ?- A. Wf \\r\-r lint t ii'd till tile liiiii- of tlu' Fish Crt'ck tiudit or nlmut that ; lifturc it, tlio (lav ot' the H.^iit, Dcloniu! caiiu' down tln' cellar and ordered three yiianls to foiuo down after liiin, and he ordered them to cock their i,'iins, which v. eiv doiilile liarrel shot :,'un.s, 1111(1 they covered the men, while they tieil me hands and feet, and we were left that way till eleven o'clock next day, supposed to lie that way. (,). Did aiivthiii-' 1 !pp''ii at'lcr lliat In fore \ou were released,' A. I'lxcrv lUL'ht that \\f were 111 the cellar v, e \n ei'c tleu iiiostlv, (.). low wel'c Voll release. 1 .' A. I was release. liV ( elieral M iildletnn's men (.^t. I'.efore you were released did y.ai s(. lay fhat r>atoi'he was laken. he day that IJatoch.' was taken you saw him come to the cellar to see .Vstloy ? iiaimer : he was \(m'\' .\. Y(\s. he came for Astlev : he came there in a verv excited n mul'h excited, and so were the iinai who were with him. We could tcl! liy the way they tliiiii,' the stone ill' till' "cllar door. They just sent them rollin.u' all oscr the building' and he came to (he door of the cellar and the tirst words I heard him say was : "Astley ! .Vstley! tome here and .40 tell .Middleroii if they--l think massacre was Oie word used --if they massacre our wiimeii and cliildren, wi^ will massacre vou prisoners. (.^). —Well, from that time till your relei^e did ain'thiii'.;- lia]ijien liet ween »()U and rile prisoner A. N'li. I ili.l not sf;e tilt prisoner atterwards. iiretlN' near E .imiiied ii\' Mi: ITZl'ATIMCK <,>. Y uu siica'' Ci ee pertectlv. do vmi not ot lll'l f.'ctlv, I ik ( H'i' prett; <.'. V lU were arrested on what d IV .' — A. I wa-. a rrested almut four o'clock on th.' 19th ol^ Marcl Q. Y ou saw -Mr. lliel fur the tir.>t tin le wiien -A. I an me saw him at Walter's store or at the church for the tirst ti him at the church, but [ dont reiiiemher whether I saw him at Walter's or not. 1 lint posit i\ e whet her I am cei'taiu of seeing; Q. You saw him at tlw church .' — A. [ saw him ,it the church, luit I am not positive whei her I saw him at the store or not. U. 1) 1(1 you have any cou\'ersation w O. At the chiiivl: ?--A. Y'es. ith I iim A. Y. Q. What did he say vo you ati.l what did you say t.i iiim .' -A. i ,isked him if he would respect my property, and he said my ]iroperty would he resjiected and ho .i^ave mc leave to take my horse out of the cuttin' that some Half-breed luul kindlv hitclif^d liiin up to. Q. Some Half breed had taken your hoi'se and he told the lialf-lireed to d eliver your horse u]) to you and you v'ot him back .'—A. Xo. some Half breed had it hitched up to a cutter and tied the hor.se up to a post, and I asked lca\e to undi d he ) it and feed hiii some liav. and he fjave me iiermission to do si Q. And he told you your property would be respected' A. Tie told hk! it would. 4:. 'i>. Now \()ii lit'iiril Mr. Kid iii:iki' n sprfi'li (u lii> iiicn.illd yen tint ,' A. ^'^■H. i}. Yon iiciu'il liiiii trii tli.ii ( ';irlt()ii mill I'rinii AHuTt xmti' iinrliinjj; ,' A. Yi'S. (J. Ami liiil not aimiuiit In iiiiyl liiiiy- .' A. N'rs, (}. \\';i,s lie very fiir tViHii ymi win n he lii.uli' tli.it liult- >|ii'ccli . A. Ni>, lif \Mis ;ili(Ui( MS fur MS yuii ui'c tVimi inc imw, i). TIlMt lil tli'Slici'cll w.is (lrli\ri'ril 1 ly jiiin to Ills liH'll ill Kl't'Iidl, wils it Iml " A. ^^•s, <^. ^'()U would IiM\f no olijcctioii now to it'|i(Mt the little s|if<'ch, the s^lll^t^ntlMl words he used, woiiM you .' A. \\ rll ms near ms I cmii ri'|i(Mt tlir words lie used, I don't know wlicitlicr I can n-pcat tlicin now or not. lli- said : •• (^u'csf-cf ([lie c'est niU' Curl- ton .' <^)ir<'st('t' (|in' (;"t'st i|U<' I'l'iiiri' .Mlii'i't .' Kicn. Marilioiis. nirs lirM\'('s I" soiiii'tliini,' jifptfy near that. (j>. ^'ou next lii'Mid him iiiakf tliat sjicci'li to his men Mt'lcr the men hud conif liaik from Duck Lake, did you not ,' .\. Vcs. <^). W'hcfc w M.> he at the time.' A. He was sittini; on horseliuck outside ii, the yard. (^». And w iiere wtTc you .' .\. rpstairs in Mitchell's house, lookin;.; out through the window. Q. You wpro in the second story of Mitcliell's house, ufre you not .' A. I wiis in the ti|istuii'K of the house. C^). .\nd he was down ni the y.ird .' A. Ws. aid liiit i did not uiuh-rstund him, at toast 1 did not umh rs'and all lie said. (,). ()f course the wiiHh)Ws were closed and he was downstairs .' A. .\o. the window s were not closed. There was a pane of n'lass ]iart ly knocked out of the window and through this j)une I was looking'. Q. Through the pauf you were looking down at him .' .V. Yes, tlu'ough the broken liane. <^. And you heard wliat he said out in tlie yard ? — A. Yes, I lu'ard what he said. (.}. You heard liim make his speech thert> .saying lie thanked the Lord and tiie \'irgin Mary for liis .successes ? -A. I don't reiuember him thanking the Lord, 1 remeiidiei' him tlianking tlie Virgin Mary. Q, Whom else did he tiiank ? — A. St. Jean Bajjtiste, St. Joseph and several other Saints. Q. He went through the wliole list, didn't he ! A. What do vou mean hv the wliole li.st? Q. How many more did he repeat ? -A. 1 don't remember how many more he said, lie mentioned other Saints. Q. You next were present at tin; choosing of the council in the church, were you not ? —A. I was present at the council before 1 was to Duck Lake. <.^. That was in the church at Duck Lake, was it not ? -A. No, it was in the church at Batoche. Q. Were there many people there ? — A. Yes, the church was full. Q. I-)id Riel take any \Mvt in tiie election ? -A. In the election of the council ? Q, Yes. — A. I don't think he took much }iart, except he spoke in one man's favour whom soniel»ody else rose olijection against. Q. As far as you can now rei'oUect, that is all the part he took in the election ? — A. That is all. ■k; (-i, Wliiit Ik' said iHtim(l l''rt'ii(li. . Well ynii iiiult'istiiiul it Hiillii'ii'iitly In know wlmt Hi<'l saiil "ii tliiit fu'ciision, do you not ,' A. I uiiiliTstaiid some ot' if, I did not uiidiT-laiid cM-ry tliiii,' lit- siiid. '■i. I)iii Kifl at any tinif [irfvcnt (ialnifl Duniout oc anylmliy else tVoin killing,' \>v\ Honcrs ( A. Well I don't know who in'cxt-ntcd (ial)i'ifl Duniont at l)uck linkt-. Ilr did not wiH-ni to art as a maii. as tliou;j;li lu' wantrd to kill pfisoiioi'N vi'ry liad. Ilo )ust .si)i)|ily oi'dcri'd (licni oiil and then lie scnnrd to (|uit tlici'- wlicn 1h' had oivh'i'r-d thrni out. . liici lodk no |i.irt in your arrest, did he ? Was he iircsent when vou wore iirrested I ~A. No, he was not jircscnt when i was arrested. (,|. Was he present when you were \>n\ down in the cellar at Itatoche, you were put (low n with other prisoners ot' course .' A. Yes. No, he was not present then. ((). lie was not doA n in the cellar at the time yon were |iiuinned and tied there, eithei- was he .' A. No, lait I had sent men In tell him we were tii'd. I had aski'd the yuards Id tell him we were tied. . r>iit he was not present at the tini'' ,' .\. No. . You know the jiotise was struck with a shell, do yon not ,' A. Yes, I know and 1 ouiflil to know. <,>. 1 >o yon know also lliel came there at'tei' the house was struck .' — A. I thui't know whether he caim the'c after tlie house was struck or het'ore the hou.se was struck i)Ut J am inclined to thiid< it w.as hefore it was struck, and after he asked if we were safe and alive and went out of theh ' » l,». Very i^ood advice .' A. Kind of cool advice cnmini,' throui,di the lloorat that time. t,». I suppose i I would lia\e l.ev.n (MM.ler had it L'one throu:,di an ice house, wouhlnt it ? — A. ProliaMy. Q. You know tliat h.-,-av(- a pris(.n(.r that had i-ccn wounded at Duck Lake into custody of the prismi.'rs that were at Mitchells house, do vou not? Or do you think you can rememher that '! A man named Newett .' -A. Xewett was l.rouirht to u.s. F don't think Kiel broui^ht liini there, I don't rememher Riel i.rini;in,i; him theiv. t.>. Y.n, are .(uite .sure also that Kiel did not say anythin- to vou ahout him when lie was laou-ht there ? \ou are (|uite sure now on vour oath that Mr. Ri,d did not tell Mr. Astley m your presence to take good care of tliat mail ?— A. I can't swear that he did not. t,) You don't think lie did do it, don't you ?-A. I can't swear he did nor yet I can't swear that he did not. "^ Q. Y.uir impression is that he did not do it ?_A. I ain't got no impression about it. (,). That fact did not remain sutHciently on your m,>,norv to he aide to remember it ot cour.se .'-A. No, it did not. 1 don't remember him telling me. »f^'»<^'ni'ei it Q You don't .vmember anything ab.,ut it at all, but you remember well about the angels he gave prai.se to after the victory at Duck Lake l~A. Yes. 17 W'li.i.MM ToMi-KlNh, Hwoni. llMiiiiiiH'd l.v Mr. Hdliiiisoii (.,). \i>u alt' II Ipi'iitlifr lit' till' liisi witiic^-, I iliiiik, art' yon iml ! A. A lousin. • i*. ^''lll liur I II ill till' i'iii|ilnyiiioiit ot' till' IndiiLii l»('|)aitiiii'iit in tlu'sc'l't-rritorics, iii\ f vi'ii nut A. V (,). I''<)r li(»\v loiij; ? A. r li:i\o lii'i'ii ill tlicir finplnyiiwiit now on aiul olVfnillii lust tlM" Vt'llfS. (,|. Ill v\ hat fnparit y .' A. A>« assistant taiiiirr ami intiTprt'trr also. (j. You wrrt' at Fort ('arltoii iii tlir iiiuiitli of Martli last I Ipclicvc .' .\. ^'l's, <.^. l''oi' liow lull;,' ha\c you iici'ii htiitiuiu'd tln-i't- .' A. Sii, -v the i.")tli ot' Aii;,'iist, up till that til (^ Do you I'l'i'iillnl till- ISih ut' Mai'cli lust?— A. Yf.s. (). I )o you I'l'i'olli'i'i iraviii!.' tlir l''oi'l on lliul day ,' .\. '^^•s. (^>. With wluuii dill ymi njo,'— A. .Mr. Lasli, ihr Indian Agent. i). And t'or what purpoistf .' - .\. I did not know that. (^1. I )iil II' iisU you to ;,'() \v (.». V Ml 1 mil ou wci'f orwcrrd liv hiiii to yi f A, V.'s, h.'said I then !- A. Yes. was to t;o. U. Y iM, wrrc iiiidfi' Ins inslriicl ions, wi-rc \i 111 not / A. Y mill. (I III' w.ss the Indian .^ui'iit thi'i'i" .' - A. Yi's. i). Just tell us what liap|ii'nrd, you wont with liiiii I suppose? — A. I went with (.}. Where to.'- A. < iiu' Arrow's rcsei'M' he started for. (). .\liout how t'ar t'roiii Caillon ' .\. 'I'wi'iity iiiili's. (,|. ( )ii hoisi'ltack or dii\ iiiLC .' A. |)ri\inu-. ^). l>otli ill till' sleiirli ■' — .\. No, I was si-paratr. (^). I'^acli had your own sleiii;h '! — A. "^"es. Q. What took |ilaee then .' A. Wlaii we < niiii' as far as Duek Lake ^Fr. Lasli stopped there a few minutes, and then lie weiu on lo the river and stopped at Walter iV: liaker's, and (inally we got to the lost-rse and found the Farm instructor not at liomc. and fed the horses there, and tin' Farm Instrnetor diovr up and Mr. Lash stopped a little while, and then we stai'ted hiiek. He wanttsd to huy .some potatoes or somethiiig for the Indians, as far as I eould underst'iiid, and we eame to this i)lat'e, wlieie I \\as taken ])i'isoiiei' a t Mr. Kerr's st ore (,|. Who '.vcri' you taken prisoner liy .' A. Mr. Kiel. Q. And wi'ii' tlieii' others witii liiiii .' A. ^'es, tlierr was (Jabriel I)uiiior.t anl a lot of (jthers. U. Aii()Ut how niaiiv otiiers .' A. I should iudifo between GO and 100. t all armed at thr l line Q. Were they 1 lalt'-lueeds .' A. Yes, prineiiially. Q. Were they ariui'd .' .\. Yes, not them all, they wcii' no Q. Were the maiority of them armed, do you think .' —A. No, 1 don't think they Q. And what wt'i'e those armed with that were armed, as far as you observed? — A. Guns. (^. Well, wlio first stojiped you ? — A. (iabriel. were, 4S <>> W hill (lid hi' sn\ In \«)ii ' A. lie lold lis lo iviniiiii iIk re awiiilc. id all ih.'M' inrii u" \\i''i vou li> ilu" v\v. 'h, or only a snial! iruard .' - A. Tliey all wi'iil wiih u -. as far .is I rould set'. <,>. \nil wliai w.i-. diMir Mu'ii .' .V. W'l'll. v.r went to tlif church, and ot t'our.sc I doul inulctsi.iihi ihc I'liihh lanuua,i.rc luil I >indt'rstan. \N ho \\( ic cMuaued in I v\ m-' to elect a council, was hnniont there? — A. (laliriel was a|i|>omled lo elect tliciii, ;»-< t'ar :\- 1 could t'"d out. t,V W'.is Ml. Kiel there ' .\ V.-s. \>. \\u\ wha, i>.ir! dill he >ee'ii lo he takin-.' -A. \\\A\. 1 could not say as he wa.s (.akinu aii\ pari . (jV Then \(>j. were pu! iniii the eliureli . A. ^ e.*. (jV Were \ on kejn in the ciiurch that ni^ht .' A. No. \^ e wi-rc taken across to Walters >t.ive. and we were kepi thiuv ujistairs until the morninu". and tlien tJiey leturued us hack to ihe church ai;ain. and we remained there that ni<.dit. — not that niiiiit. we slopped tliere that niirht. and we were removed down to Pliilijipe Giirnot's restainani .at Ivativhe. he w.as cookinii there. 14V V(>s. and what hajipened then ' A. First there was one of the councillors, he took our n.unes. as ,» word oi honor to t;o down there, if we would not try to escaj e. and we put down our names on the word of honor, and then they sent some truards aloni; (o l>e sr.re. Q. How many iruavds did they send in addition to the word of honor? — A. Wei!, there were two with me. I don't know how many there were with the rest. 0. How many of you were sent down? — A. Well, there was "Mr. Lash and I, and vi<\ivce Ness and SleKear. and Mr. Tompkins, my cousin. i,^ Were the c'tiards armed ' A. Yes. the guards that were with me were armey Indians? .\. Yes. some huna'.is. ^\ Hew many Indians d^. you thuik ? -A. 1 should think there would l>e aliout t»;n or twenty. t.^ V> ere the Indians .also armed '? — A. Y*es. V.,' NN hat di.; They do wiih you at Duck l>:-.ke when you irot there ? A. Tljev put ws upstairs m Mil. iiells house. v^i Te:; us wliat happened next? A. Well the next thini: that 1 heard wa.- we veiv orderec. liown to he shot in tlie aft^Tmx^n. 1 met Mr. Astlev and Mr. Ross there. 40 (.}. Tlic next thing you lioiird ymi wcw (H'dci'cd down to be wluit ? A. To lie shot. (}. Ill till' at'tcriiooii ; who liy .' A. (iuliricl was tlic iiiiiii tliar I t]ioii;^lit oidn'ed us. (}. Was that lioforc or after tlic atiiiir at Duck l^akc .' - A. After tlic afl'air. i}. Well tell us aiiythiii};' you can that took jilace hei'ore that ali'air .' I >id you see tliein .i,'()ing out to Duck Lake.' A. Yes, I saw tlieiii ;,'oiin;' out. Q. Whei'c did they come from .'-A. 'I'he ]iiiiici|i,,l pari of then; were ahead when we ifot there. (^. How many do you think were ahead of \ou .' A. I siiould judire aliout tlii'ee liundred. Q. And there were how many with you ? — A. \\'ell, aliout CiO o, 7(^ altoirether, Indians and all. U. And of tlie 300 liow nianv do vou think were Indians?- A. Al'oiit l'>0. U. Well, tliev were ahead of v ou. I) (I vou !. let to Duck Lak(> hefore thev left it, for the place where the tight took plaee 1 lief ore they went out to where the tight took place? -A. Xo, they were just going out : how I kni^w they were going to tiglit. Monk- man canu' running liy and he .said in Cree, asked an liK'ian where was his gun, or had he brought his gun with him, ain was ''oini' to lie a ti'dit. 1 lie ordered lliem to the f'roiit. so I thouiiht liv that there g. Did you .see Kiel at that time .' A. No. <,). Well then, did you hear any tiring ! A. Yes. g. Mow long after they had gone out. reed ly the name of Maiiiius liiirstein. told me that he interfered. (»). Well, you were not taken out, and what liapjM ned next f .\.. Well we were I'elllO \ed to Carlton next. (,). I'.efore that, did v oil see I! hi.' I) III \i)U sec liiel at )U( A. Yes. h 'ume wi th tl le iirisoners. (,(. And what did he sav to vou .\. lie did not make anv icniiirk at all to me I,). Did he make an\- remark to anvone else in your hi^aring , A. I le made ivmark to Astley or Astli-v made a. remark to him. they were talking aliout the tight, he .said that the police tired the tirst, aiu 1 Mr. Astley .said that proliahly the gun might liav(* '.ione oti' accidentally, and h<' said, jierhaps so (,). Did he ,eil vou anvthing iii oi e aliout the tight .' A. The next day he allowed iiic to go out, 111 iss aiK 1 I. to take the iiodies otf the field. Q. Before that he told Mr. Astley the police tired lirst. and Mr. .\stley said jier- liaps the gun went oti" accidentally, and he .said, perhaps so. was there anything elst spoken of as regards tirin A. He said he gave the woi'i 1, in the name of (iod, to tire (>). He .said he gave the word to whom A. To his men ^). Did he say anytliing more ahout his men or w hat any of them had done at th liglit ? — A. No, luithing that \ heard. (,). Nothing that you remember A. N. ')() Q. Well, did he suy auytliin.i,' iiliout y')iirst-lv(\s ,' — A. lit' said that jn'oliahly w«^ were Id'outrlit ill there for our lives, to ha\e our li\(>s saveil, \\liere1i\' it' we liad heeii out I supliose we would lias'e !»eeii s •PI 1 h sliot, that is the v.av I uiiih'i'stood it. Q. lie said that ])rol)ahly you were l>i'ou;,dit in tliere Imi- your li\es' saki-. tliat if y oil iiad been out vou luii'lit ha\ ( heeii shot '! A. Y<'s. Q. Well iiow Ion;;' did you remain at llilliai'd .Mitcliell's '- A. We reniainec' *^here mtil the ."Hst. Q. And where were \nu taken tlien A. To Carlron. tj). By wiioiii '. A. Taken by IJaptiste Laplante. when h(> was dri\ in;f the team, there wer( t]ii'<'e innards in the cellar, as far as I can think Q. How many other llalf-lireeds wei-e there wirii you there? -A. I sliould jud^o about fifteen altogether, 12 to L"). Any hidJans? A. Yes. Q. How many .' A. Two. Q. About tiftecMi Half-breeds anil two Indians.' A. Yes. (^>. What was done with you tliere' A. We were placed in a liou.se there, up.stairs. <}. When you u'ot tliere. who did you tiiid in possession of Carlton ( A. .Monkmaii. WitJi how maiiv men .' A. I shouhl thin aliout til). (.». WiM'C tliev a rmed A. Y low \in\i' ( lid you remain there.'- A. We remained till the; Aid Apri (.>. What was done with vou then .' A. We had to •'(> back to Ljatocl oclie. Q. What distance is thiit .' A. Twenty miles. Q. I'lider a Ltuaid .' .\. Yes. . How manv were in the yuard .' \. We went with all the crowd. The whole that were at ('arltoii .' A. Y es. (iJ. Did they burn before l(^a\iii,u .' A. It was in fire before I left. I could see tl flames when I had left le (I. Then the whole foi'ce went oxer with you to Hatoche, aiiout iDI).' A. Y (). The\' were armed as J understand .' A. Yes. es. (}. T len when vou ;,'ot to ISatoche wjiat svas done with vou .' A. W e wei e put 11) JJi.ptiste HoyiM's house (I How long were you kept there .' .\. Kept there till th<' battle of Fish Creek. (^. That would ha\ e been on the L'4th .April .' A. On the L'4t]i April. (i. I'lider guard .' A. Yes. Q. And what happened on the L'4t]i April .' A. Well, before we were taken to the cellar, J .saw a man get u]) there and wave to the other party that were across tlie river to come oil this side and they started, and we were taken down to the cellar and we did not hear aiiythiiig more. (.,). Wlio took you into the cellar, who was in command of tl ' — A. .1 could not say who was in eominaiid. le guard if tliere was one? (.}. How long were you kept in the cellar ? A, \\'e were kept in till the battle of Fisli Creek was over and (hen we weie taken out Q. That wouhl only ha\e been a ilay or two, 1 suppose at that t ime A. Y es. of my wl ieh. A. Ye that I A. Yes "le "A. M Mr. Th. g, to that. g. as fai- as (■I i). tliere .' either th g. ^ Q. ] arid we w day. g. 'i — A. He g. 'J Q.- Q. \ cock and g. \' li.i.'ht. g. X g. H (,). A g. \\ last three g. H only tied 1 51 (,i>. W'i'll, liow Iniii^r \v( IT yitu let! ciiii iif tlic colhir iiftoi- that ? A. Well, to tlii' licst of" my kiiowlfdi,"-. i think wf \\i'\r ]un dnun i-ithcr tlui' day or the next, I mii not sun; ■whi'-li. • t. X ow Willie vmi ucrr in A. \'cs. 1 siiw I r>;i|ilistf UoyiM's iiinisc did you .s('<' -Mr. liicl at all i!in around (.i>. hid he •■\('r s])cak to you .' A. No, hcmt hud any cimx cisation with nu' at ail tiiat I know ot'. A. Y (.^. hid lit' vM'v liaxi' any ronxcfsai ion wiili other persons in your jnesent. U. With wi loni A. He used to conNerse wit!', ^h■. Ast ev, IIU' <.i>. What did he say to Mr. Astley in your presenee .' A. Well, Mi. Astley told i}. Never mind what Mr. AsMey told you, what did you hear him say to Mr. Astley .' for the Hon. Lawrenee (Murk, and --A. Well, I lieai'd him say he would exihani;t' u^ Mr. Thomas McKay or Colonel Sproat. to that. (.J, What did Mr. Astley say to that .' A. Well, 1 don't know exaetly what he said U. You doll t reiiiendier w hat the answer was ,' A. X( <■>. len duriii!^ all this time were you in the eiistody of an armed Liuar d ,' A. Y es. u. Wh o apiieare as far as I eouid see to )i .f tl le 111 eomiiiaiul or tlie jieoyle there, tlie armed men th -A. 1 ;ie i). hid \ ou o\er see hiiu armed .'- A. Ye; U. What with .' A. Winrhester Kille. (X Y on were h ft out of the cellar for a shrut time, and when wore vou nut hack there.' A. 1 tliiiik we were mo Imt \vi' came out, f think w<" were mo\ed laciv ei tiler that (lav or tlie next. (.). You came out al.out the dav of the ti.ittle of Fish Creek, L'-lth ? A. Ye s. <..). ^' ou mo\e(l. were iiiovei ! hack vou mean, on tlu^ I'oth and L'Gth ?- A. Yes. U. 11. IW [i)\\<' I id vol! remain there? .\. The l' tth was the hattle of Pish Creek, and we were out on the '.'."ith I think, and than wc were put hack again ri^lit tliat next day. Q. Then vou were put haek on the liiUh. and how long did you remain there then '. ■ — -A. Remained theif till I was released. g. That w(mld l.e the IJth of ?.!ay ? .\. Yes. Q. Who was there with you .' A. In tin* cellar. g. Yesf A. There was Mr. Astley, Mr. lloss, Mr. Lash, .Mr. McKean, Mr. Woo tied '. A. Well Drloniif xva.', tlic iiiiiii that tied lilt'. (.^ Wrll how WHS it (lone, was he luiiioil .' -A. Yes. he was iinncd. (,). l)idh»> say aiiythiuu- wlifu In' did it.' .V. lie said if lie t'omid us uiiioo.s(M] he would slioot U.S. Q. Do you nMiieiid.er .seeinj,' liit'l on the llith, tlii' day you were rcst'ucd .' A. Yes. (.^. Wliere did vou see him .' A. He <'aiiu' to the trap door aiul toolc Mr. Asth'y out. g. What did lie .say to him? -A. He said to ijo and tell (ieueral Middleton, as far as I can understand, if he did not stop shellinj;- the houses he would massacre tlie prisoners. Q. Did Astley j^o ? -A. Yes. Q. Were you there when Astley returned, or did you see him ? A. N(\ (^). Then have you told me all that you know about the matter? A. Yes. Q. Had vou known Kiel l)Pt'ore this ? - A. I had seen him, I nevei' was fK'i|Uaiiited with him. tj. How often had you seen him before this? A. Iliad seen him just oiiee to 111/ knowledge. (.j|. And wiien would that have been ? A. lie was holdinna meetinn at a st'ttleiiient. Q. Wiien ; A. I forget the date. (i>. How loHL, before this.' -A. I should .judge about si\ nioiiti.s. K.samined i>y Mr. ( Jkkknshiklds. . Somebody intei'preted it f>*r you? -.V. 1 asked an interpreter that liad it inter preted to him. He told me in Indian. Q. So tli;it what you know then is the statement that you have proved that Mr. Riel has made was interpreted to you by an Indian ?— A. An Indian that understood French. Q. iUit vou did not know what he said himself y>prsonallv ? -A. No, I did not ,say 1 did. Q. I think you said also that at the meeting of the council where you wore })re.sent when they were electing the oouncil, that Riel did not seem to be taking nnu-li part, very much of any part in it ? -A. Yes. Q. Now you un.ier.stood, did you not, the Half-breeds during your arrest were really standing between vou and the Indians, that is vou looked to them for protection? Yes, I did. - 1 . Jiy .Ml'. K<»iiivso\. Q. Tlii's<> i' u]) my arms if I liad any, to hand them over to humoiil. (,). Then what was done ? — .\. Fnini that we were taken to the clniiih. (J. \\ ho seemed to lie in authoiit v w Ikmi Hiel came up ' A. 11 le schemed t o command the whole thinu. it was hy his orders that the mules 1 was dri\iii,L:' were unhitched, and lie took ])ossession of them and the irap. Q. It was he told you the intention of the party ? — A. Ye: (.). Al)i)ut how manv mci I were t here II I arms ? — A. I should sav th ere \^ ere aliout 4U or ">0 in the n loh. I.). H i)W were they armed ? - - A. With ,ljuiis, chietlv .i^uns and a \arictv of arms, rifh U. Do vou mean tlu-v were all tire arms ? — A. Yes, all tire aini.^ U. Then wli ere were you p' It '! — A. We were taken down to the church and remainerl there till ahout S o'clock. (J. The church at what j)laetweeii S and !• in (he e\enin<;-. (,). What was n'oiiii^ on at Walter and Maker's store ? — A. The store was lieing ])illa,:,'e(l by the armt>(l moli. we were put upstairs. (^. Did you sei" lliel there that evening ? — A. No. {y). You were put upstairs and whom did \ou find there "? — .\. 1 found Walter and his clerk Mr. Ilaiinipin, they were in-isoncrs. Q. Any one else in the house '.'-.\. Not at that tim 1,). On till- lilth what took pla-e ?-- A. That liiouu'lit in. Louis .Marion. evcninic tlierc was anotlicr iirisoiiei' 54 (.,). On till' I '.Mil whiit tiit'ui'(l at tlif (liuii'li .' A. 'I ncrc wa.s a urfat deal of cxt'itfiiH'nt goinn; on. Imt it was sj.oken in Kron.di oliioHy. and I did not understanrl it. (,). W'lioni did vol! set" at tlic ilnrcli. did yon sci.' tlic [iii^oni-r at tlir chnri A. Y (.). W'lial wa^ lu' doiii''' .' .\. .Vdil rosini,' till' croxNd (.>. AnN'tlunu' i^isc .\. 'I'licrc wiis iiothini,' tliat f know of jiartit-nlarly. (^>. N\'lio w.as in cliai-i,'*' that day so fai' as yon .saw .' — A. 'I"ii(> iii'isoiicr. (). Then wliiTcdid you yo from the clnircli aiul when .' A. Tlioy kept us tln-iv till iil)out S o'clork. and we had no Mankcts i>|' jniythinn. and a man l)y tluMiami' of Monkmau cauH' alonu and I sjiokc to him anil he said hiwon.ld src jliel and sec what . II nu 1, iil; (hd Mill sta \' t hi'lc A. W iiiiiaincd thiTi' till thr inorninL!' of tlie .'(Uh. (1 < »f .M -A. ^' ((). huviuL,' that time li;ul you an\ con^ i-rsat ion with tin- | UMsoncr A. S('\t>ral. I.). (• an ^'ou LCivc us anNthiny ot iiniKirtancr he ;^aid to \iiu as to ins mtfuitums ' A. On one (Kt-asion he said that he iiad thico cnomics, and onunuu-atcd tin-m as tiiolioscrn- luent, the Hudson i>ay < 'o., and the ])oli(c. ho also stated to me he would ,;,dve th(> police ■cvvvy opportunity to surrender and if tley did not do .so there w oukl he hhwdshed ; on another oi'casion he tuld me he had heard rhe l.ieut. (ioveiaior was on his way u]> and that he had sent an aruu'd hody to cipture 1 inn. g. Anvthin- else ? A. J cannot ri'inenilier what his ordinary (•on^ ei'sation wa.s, on one occa.sion he said he wiMdd not rrleasf me on anv account as I was a (!o\ei-nment otiicial. tliat he would hold me as a hostaiii*. (,). Anythinn' else, anythini.' personal to himself as to his moti\es '. — A. Yes ho tr.lked aliout as soon as they had tlie country it would lie divided up and so foi-th, ho would uive. he was yoiny- to nive a seventh to the Indians, a seventh to the ITalf lii'cecls Jind 1 (lout k'liow what was to lieconie of the li.ilancc. Q. It was only two se\entlis he w a.- \vas all he stated to me. ;'oniy' to u'l^e aw- ay ap]iai'ently .' — A. That (i). \\ a> anvthiuL;' s;iid as to his intentinn> or nioxenients .' -A. Xo. not that 1 am aware of : on one occasion h le wanted me to join the movement. lie saul lie wou Id ,'uai-antee me a iiosition in the service if I fell in w ith 1 urn. t,), What did he say .'—A. He said 1 fliat thev were to form. U' wouhi ei\,. 111,. ,1 ji,,,,itii);i in the (ioxcniment g. Did 1 g. iMd 1 le sav anvUnnL;' alio ut the I noians .\. Not: imu' out ot t iic.w a V, u' ositnin they were takni;^' parti ailar conversation ahout the Indians. .\. No. I do not rememoer a 117 g. Was thei'e anythiiii; said as to the lenu:th of time he had 1 matters .' A. Yes. he told me he had Iieen waitings,' 1 •"> had come. th ■eai leen ei)nsi(ienni( the.se s and at last his oppoi'tunitj 55 ',). Then ulicif well you taken cMi tlif I'litli .' A. To hink J.aUc (/ And where wcce you |iut there .' — A. We were juit aliuve .Mr. .MileheU'^ .store, ubove his house I sliniild say. (,). 'I'liat is with tlie other |>ii~.iiieis : A. Yes. (J. hid you see lliel tlieli' at all liet'oie tlie ti-ht .' A. No, the main IhmIs liad '^nno to the finilt w lien we arrived tlieie. t.>. Dill vou see iiiiu at'ter the I'i'dit.' .\. I saw him retuiaiiny' witli tlie luol'. iiDisehiu'k. lo was lie retiirnnii;- with A. It' m\' memor\ serves me riulit. he was on <.•. How man\- men ahoiil III mm .V I should sav iietween .'lot) or Kn), <). How wci'e tliey armed, it' uiiied .' .\. 'I'liey were [lait ly aiuie,! with guns, ritles and so forth. (,). Wlien did you hear lliel after tliat say anythinu' / A. He came ii]i with a .'ounded jirisoner, tiie wounded xolunteer, and he saiil "lie will he hettei' in \our liatids as lie is one of \oiirsel\ es. or Words to that etn-et. <\>. Then what eoii\t'r ro tind out if Mr. Liwreiiee Clark was at the huek Lake ti'j;ht. I don't know as there was anythinii' else ]iartieularly said liy him. le elaimed the ^y Was there .iiiythliiL;' said ly him as to whieh tired first .' .\. Yes. 1 poliee tired first and then he told his men to fire, that is what he elaimed. (). Hid you hear him make that elaim that he told liis men to tire ,' .\. Yes, 1 did. (), Was that all you he.inl him say .' .\. That was all 1 rememlier at jiresent. O. Hid \ai;-e to M a jor ( 'ro/ier, |o >cml for the dead ind that he would not mole.-t any part (,). r>o \ou rememlier the da\ ih.it les eominy tor rili'ni. >:■ A. ,\ Frida (>. The I- ridav after t he tii.;ii t .' A. ^'es. (,>. I >id .S;inderson return A. Y e> lie returned on Suiahn not. (^>. Ho \'iui know personalis' of I he dead lieinL;' t,ikenas\"ay li\" Sanderson ? -,\, | did <,>. 'J'hen was a 11 villi 111;' said Uv Kiel at any time as to wiet were with him in the mo\(Miien t.' A. N o. he never mentioneil anv names. (,». Xot names, Imi what pi'ople .' A. ^'es he told me the Inil and t]i(> ifalf-ltveeds, iiotli Freneli, I'lii^lish and Scoteli. laiis weri' all with liiiii, (). W^eri' with him A. W ere with liini III the mos fment. (). T leii \'oii were taken i HI the ."list where.' .V. Taken to ('aiit nil. ( >. All of vou .' A. Y i{. \\'hat was done with you there ' .\. We w iM'e kept there till the iiioriiin;.; of the •>rd aju'il, and then we were t'arti'd or walked tin' l>est ]iart of the way to Latoeiie. Q. Where were you put in llatoehe.' .\. In the bottom of a store on arriving, unci the nt>xt (hiv we were moved above the store. 50 (). You were kept iiliovc the store until \vlnii .' A. Wc w. if kept alioM' tlic store tintil some excitement sprauLj u]i there and we Nvere put down tluM^ellar a day or two and Me were taken out and put liack a^jaiii and we remained there tlien till Thursday the L'.'ird. and we were taken out of the eelhr.' after the Kisji ('reck ti;;lit was o\ er. ii. How wer-' you treated in the rellai' ! A. < >ui' liands wei'e tied at niijht. (,|. Had vou any eommunieation witii !lie! during your stay at l'>atoehe. any talk with him ; A. I s|)oketohini :;ev(. With what .' .\. It was a litle of some kind. . In talkinji' to you .' .\. Not to me personally no. I liearo \ou rememlier any ( liiny taking' place on the day yoti were released .' A. Yes, Kiel came to the trap door, it was loaded with stones, he called Mr. Astley. aiul he says come (juick an and see iMiddlct*>n, and he tinned hack and says : •• if our families are hurt in' any way, I will massacre the pi'i.soners," addressing- us all who were left in the cellar, six of us. (•i*. What occurred after that .' A. Shortly after that we were I'cleased liy the avrixal of the troops. Mli. Kl IZI'A'IKK'K. We do not wish to cross-examine the witness. ^ ( ) Q. \^ di th 1 not rou;,d 1) I'd . in (.1 A Krf ncli ( aro. he, Mr. .Ness .' — .\. Yes. (^. < >ii which side of the ri\-er .'—A. (In the Ivist side of the ri\er. (^. How far from iJatoche .' A. .\l)oul iwn miles. Q. What is your occupation ? — .A. .\ farmer. (,|. .\re you a Justice of the I'eace as well .' .\. "\'cs. (),. You kin)w the prisoner .' -A. Yes. (^. When did you tirst see him .' A. Somewhere in the iiioniii of dulv. ahout that time. (}. July lSf<4 .'--A. Yes, iSSt. i't 1 saw him around the .settlement. (;>. In the parish of St. Antoine / -- .V. Yes. (.1. Was he living there at that tinu' .' -.\. Yes, somewhen- there. i}. Were his wife ■.lud children living there to ? — A. Yes. (^>. J)o you know if lie had continued to li\t> in the c(uintry since then ? A. Yes. (}. You know of his holding meetings .' A. Yes, I lieliexc he was holding meetiu"8^ Q. Did yon iittciid any ot' tliusf iiifftiii;,'.s .' A. I aiti'iidfil one u£ tliciii, Q. Out' of tlir first iiiectiiiits ! A. No, tills was on tlif "JUli Keliruiuy. Q. Wlicif nas it licld '. A. In tlir rluiifli of St. Aiitninc. l^. I)id aiiytlniij,' of inipoftancc tiikr (ilacc at tliat nifct iiijus and if so tfll ti> .' A. I did not. I'ontiniH' all tlif way tliron^li the nicrtinj.'. I ii-ft \s lien it was aliont iialf tlll'Olli'll, \\ ;i\ ti>. And you say it was conductrd |ii iiiri|ially in I'Vcncli .' A. Vcs, it was rondm ted m i< r( iK-h. (,>. 'S'ou iindcistand Kr.'ni-li .' A. Ye., 1 l>nfu what they w ere sayiiii,'. •V- Wastliat incctini,' atlt-ndcd liv inTsons w iio afterwards rcniaiufd Inval .' A. ^ sf\t'i-al and also Ipv pci'sons w lio weir in the iclicil ion. (■i*. hid yon tal^c any pai't in the nn'i'tinj,' yoiii'scif ! .\. No. I was just listcnin,:.;. I licafd tln'fc was to lie a nu'rtin.i;, and I jiiNt went out of rui'iosity. <.i>. Had you any reason for not takinj,' jiail .' .\. I ne\ef did tai,'ht ]ia\e lieen the end of duly or August. (^ What were yon speakinir aliout .' A. lie was talkiiii; of trying' to assist the people in their ,;,'iie\anee.s, to have their ;jrie\aiues righted. (.). Speaking:' of ^^'ettin^- up an aLfitation ' A. ^'es. an agitation or a lull of ri;j;lit- ours lui the road, he was lui foot, and as in the eustcnn of that part of the couiitrv 1 took him into my t-utter as far as my plave : li(> said : '■ I lielei\e (Jaliriel is e-xoitinyj the indians on (hie .Arrow reser\e." 1 went home. I thought proliald\ it mi!,dit he true, and I took and \'('(] my hoi-se and started for Carltiui. (.^). 'Phis Mas alioui three in the afternoon .' .\. Aliout three, it was m-ttiny towards sunset. I went to Carlton and informed .Major ( "ro/ier of what 1 had heard, I came theri that niirlit it was late, I suppose it was aliout twenty miles to drive there. I asked jiei'- mission to caniii fr.)iii tht> .Major, and the next mornimi I saw him, and li<> told nte if 1 heard anvtliinj; mort; to try and let him know as soon as possilile. When I got l>ack to Duck Lake, Mr. Kerr told me: " They are in arms already at the rivei', and they are goiny- to take Carlton to-night." I thought it was my duty to send hack to the .Major and inform him w hat was going on. (,). You did so.' A. 1 did so. I sent a h-ttei' liy a sjiecial messenger. Q. All this timt! your own family was aliout tw t side dt" till' river, at WmIIci"'. storr, I ln'itnl tlifi't- .iL'niii tliiif ii nias.s iiit'otiiin' wiis to !)(' lii'lil tliat cviMiiiiy. <^ Tlicrc was .soiiictliiiii; rciilU siirriii.i; lln'ii .' — A. Vi'.>, tlitvi- \mis Mnurtliiiig rriil - Ill till' matte I (let enilllicil ti> ijn . hill Vdii do so .' A. Y'cN. As I crossed I lie riser, I met uiiotlier iiiiin, lie was iiiidei" ai'iii-, already, lie said ; "they liase taken up arms alicady." I said it was very foolisli. 'lake tlie adviee of a friend, savs 1. and leave that ihinn alone. So I loiitiimed on my way, and wlieii I :.;iit o|i]iosile Kerr iivos.'s store. I saw a liii,' crow d tiiere. • ». Is Kerr liros.'s store on the lOast or W .st siile ,' — .\. < »ii the l'!ast side. (}. < *r on the South side, as some say .' — A. Y'es. As I ','ot to them I sav them i'ominu' on fi>i)t to the road. The sI'm,. i.s perhaps 70 or SI) feet from the road. .\ ml M line I Miliaii.- .\. Yes. (.) 1 1 iw Ilia nv I iiiiiins do vnu think v ef" thei-i A. Th •re iiiiuht have l>eeii l'I) or 'J. I. <.>. Did V on say anythiii'^ to ihcsc pcopli' .\. 1 asked tlifiji who was taking iin prisniin \\lieilifr they assi->ied (laluiel or not, mid no one would answer me. I said it wa> a M'ry foolish thiiii;-tiiey were doiiiu. tli;it tliev would all lie killed if they went on with it. if thev meant relifllion. 'i*. ^'ou made a speerli tot hem. ' — A. ^'e■^. Tliey said. : There is some old ireii in the house. A yoiiny man .snid that. He said : yoi; had Wetter L;d ami ask them if they v\ ill take him pri-(iner. They \\eiii hack to the lio.ise and In-ou^'hl aloiiu tun men. < >. Who were thev ! — .\. Honald Ii0>s and ('lice Tour (IIKl for my hoise, and e.iuudit him iiy the rein and Ross consented 1^1. The peojile all consented to vour arrest .' — .\. Yes. onromi maile a jump It Where did thev take vou to .' — .\. liiick to the store ;di(iUt sev cut v nv ei^iitv feet from the I'oad. (Jaliriel sav.> II can uet down ami warm voiirself." So I went in and warmed myself. While I was in the house. I he.ird the peopli- savin;/ in l''rencli "they have taken Captain < oit/uon. ' f the police torce stationed at Carlton. All the (I. vVln, is he.'— A. A caiiiain o people went out. I went out v\ ith the 111, ' s:i\v .M r. La' li. 1,1. ad t lie iirisoner arriv ed and he was saviiiu to .Mr. L isn at this time.' — .\. After I went out. I saw .Mr. Iliel, ■ Have villi aiiv arms ' " Lash said: " No, I never carrv aiiv arms. 1^. Who appeared I'lliciii command after the prisoier arri v cd .' — A. Mr. Kiel told uie, he savs: •' You ^^o down to the church." And we st.uaed almost imiiipdiatelv foi' the •lunrli <,). Hill every one ap]iear to ohey him ' .\. Y'e: that some I '^il i). iMihioiiI iilid nil (lie icst '/ — A. Yes. V Tt'll lis ii)i'i\it tl;rir (iikiii'j; you to lli<' rlmicji ? — A When we j,'nt to tlic tliiiicli, llhS wryc ill tllf t'l I of till' rlilllril. .Mr \\\v\ ciilli IMflicfd .s.lvillX lu' WIIN 11 proplict, that, ln' I (uild t'orcsrc cst'iits. Q. Iict'nn- fiiiit liDW iiiiiiiy mi'ii wci'f in arms? At the tiiiH- ynii mid Nasli w cro lakrii |n-is(Micrs (o tlic cliiircli '.' — A. W.'ll tlirrc iiiiy;lit liiiM- lici'li iiboiit •'(U. Q. I Inu wcrr tlicy iii'iiicd '.' — A. W'itli !,'miis. Q. Mad any ol' I linn riilcs '/ — A. 'I"lii'\ lui'dit Jiavc liad ritivs, I did not tal<« niuc'' ll'tlrc i'a;i Q. 'I'licy were armed uitli lire arms .'' — A. Yes. Q. Wild was ill cliariff of tin' cliiirrli '.' — A. H.-vd l-'atlur Moulin. (}. hill you sfi" liiiii on that oeiasion '.'' — A. W'lu-n tht- crowd ;,'ot to tho cliiiivh lie !<■ out and lie wislicd to speak to tlie iicopie. .Mr, Riel said :'• No \\c wont let him speak. T.ikc him ;i\\ay. take him away, we will tic him." (y lie threatened to tie him '! — .\. ^'e^. lie said : •'Shall we keep liiiii prisoiie Slime of them said : •• Nn. we will ptit a vjiiard o\er him." *»'• I 'id he . Where did iliey jiut ydu then ? — .\. I'pstairs, Q. Were there any prisoner> in that store when you arrived? — A. They took Mr. d 'I ish and I omiiKins irisonor 1' {). hid you tind any ])i'isouers when you i^ot there? — .\. Mr. Walters was a \ ith his assistant Mr. Ilannijiin. Q. Wci-e you kept under unard at Walters and Uaker's stove ? — A. Yes, all th time, Q. That would lie on the niuht of the ISth sti A. Y OS. Q. Toll 1110 if anything- nf imiiovtanee took place that iiieht ? — A. They took Loui.'i Marion si ])risonor on the iStli. aliout nine or ton o'clock, and during; the nir>ht 1 hoard snme 1)110 call down stairs to ^d and I'Ut the tolei;va])li wires. I hoard a noiso as if they W' ,:,'oinji, and tlioii several hours afterwards F heard them sayinj; they saw a lantern, that some one was repairing' the toloufajih, T luNird them as if they weie .starting' oil" aj^'ain. (}. 1 )id they liriiiy in any more ]>risoiicrs that niyht ? — A. They brought hack Peter Tompkins and Mclvean, who had heen reparinn' the teletj;raph. Q. What took place on tlie li'th.' A. < hi the morning of tlh> 1 9th, they sent u.s liaek to the church ai,'ain. Q. Wore you kept there al' 'hat day' A. Yes. CO i}. As |ii'i.soiii'rs ! A. ^'l■s. as |ii'is(iiit'rs. 1/ Was tin- |irisitiifr u'niiiK '"iI'Ts ' A. N'l-^. In' apiiraicd to li.' at flu- ln'.ul »if utIiiii'K. Mr was ^is iii;^ (ii'dcrs. l,(. \\ hat wiiH the cliiff event dt' llial ila\ as tar as vnii can iciiiciiiln'r .' A. He was gi> ini,' iiidiTs t(i uo 1111(1 tak" William llnv ir anil ( "luirles Xciliii |iriMoii(«rs, I,), hill vim lii'ai liini say ulis tln'V wit.' iu Ih- takin |iiiMini'r.s ,' A. jtccaiix' llicv •Milllil lint takr ll|i alius. Q. I )i(l lie say aiiylliin;; aliniit. liiiaiisi- tliey had 1 n imiMTs up In that tltii«? A. I'M'tMusi' tli>'\ had lii'i'ii iiiiiM'i's. and had Irt'l it at llir tiiiii' nf lakiiiu u|i anii^. (,). Was Noliii liiivl ' A. AImiuI his trial I .annul say exacllv, I licaid IJii- >i.yiii;i 111* lai^dit I.I III' slmt III' ihal they shimld ^lini.l liiiii, (,). ^'.>il lindi'l'sliHid N'llin and r«ii\. wl ille we were at ililiner, t,). And ail.ii'.'SNed yuii all .' .\. ^'es ad.li'esse.l Us all. l,». I)id lie say anylliin'.; In any ut' yuii particularly ! .\. \\ .11 he tuld .Mr. Walters. Mr. Walters asked him why he was keeping,' him |ii'isnncr, it he wnuld nut i;'i\c iiiiii liis lilierty. an.l Itiel .said he would think o\er it, ami that he w.mld ;,'i\(' liim hi.s lilierty. lie says to Lish; " We will ufl'er you t he same po^it lull in our ( Io\ cnim.'nl wlii.h vnu hold under the Itoiuiiiion as .\L;eiit, lliat is it' you will acce])t ot" it. " (,). .\t't.'i' that did he t;ikc y.c.i toihe .omiiil Imusc .' .\. lie t.ihl nie In- wanted It tl me at t ne .•ouii.'ll nouse. so I S'.l'lll to tl ic .•unn.'ii imiise (,l. What did lie SUV tu vai there .' — .\. He told me I d th le w as l;'oiiil;' to L:'i\e lie mv ilici'tv and the\' would read iii\ pcnallN tor m\' crime. m\ oH'cii t(>. hid he make any tuithcr pvumiscs there f — .\. '\'es. he w.aild h't me y.- ni> ditioii that I would lint do aiulhiiiL;' against the m eoii- u\ cm. 'III. i). Wh'it (lid ynii say tn that '. A. I sai.l I pri icircd h.' v.ould lea\c a yuard over me, that I cnuhl liardiv consent tu that. Q. NN'as anythiiiii else .said .' did y.ui se.' Maxim.' I,epinc there .' — A. Ye^. I Maxinic Ijcpine there Q. I 'id he take ]iarl in any coiiv ersatinn yuu rememher .' — .\. Vc,'^, \\ the cuiin.'illnrs. .saw e was cm- ot ', i I'annut rcmemlier miw Q. n.iyow I'cni.'mlier anytliinLC h<' sai.l .' — .\. X Q. When you lol.l him y.'U wmilil rather he w.iul.l keeji ii ;;uai(I oxer \t,::, wliat took place ' A. They to.ik me in ami read mv crime to me. i). What was your crime : — .\. ( 'nmmuiiicat Iiil;' with t he ] inll.-e O. Was this l.cioi'e tl le c.iUllcll A. Y ^vc-re retur «t Fish Cv (.}. Who appeared to he in the .•hair ',' A. .\lherl .Monkman and ( larnot. ^•i. Wliiit was ( liiriiDt act ill),' us? A. Si'tiiry of tin- rouiuil. v', TIh'S' rt'lld (>\(M' til \(ill \iMir ntl'cliCf ? A, YfS, tliry rciul over to IMC tllV otl'cl !(*« ia- .iHctiiilty. ',». What wa.s viuir oIl'ciiL'c .' A. ( 'niiiiiiiiiiicaliui» u itli tlic jmlicc. and insultiiii,' « l>rii'l iMiiiioiit. «,>. What \MiN your |pcualty'/ A. 'I'licy look my liorsc and cutter and lolic. «^. They wcic to lie conlisi;att'd'.' A. Yt'H. «^'. Ynii wi'ic to lie M;i\cii your lilicrty on the comlition that you would ih> nolhinj^ '••/iliiist then A. V ',,>. That you wouM lie neutral '.' A. Yes. I had no altci'iiatis c, I liad to take it. '.'. Your wit'f and t'ainiiy were at home? A. Yes, when I arri\t'd home that evenini^, I found my wife in a '.,'reat state of excitement aliout me, it ajipears Sioux Indians had Keen tlirouj^fh there and loM her I w;'s to lie >hot. Mi:. ( I liKKNsiiiKi.iis. - There should lie a limit to tlii-> hcarsa\' e\ idc nc( '■i'. l''roiii the L'Htli March till the I (tli M ly where were you? A. I was at home. t}. Where you v itliin the line of uimids of the relu'l position ? A. Yes. ',*. You had frei|uent occasion of seeing' jirmed parties? A. ^'t"^ they were passing Hid rejiassinj,' all t he time. (4*. Did you see Indians in arms loo? A. \t'<. . Do voii know the day of the l''ish Creek tight ! A. Yes. ♦.,». What dale was that ? \. ( »ii t he l' tt h of April. 1^. How far is Kish ( 'ri'ck t'v your home .^ .\. Almut twelve, miles. ••:.>. Did you see the rcliels going down to Fish Creek ? — A. Y'es, I .saw them. V- Did voii see them retiirniin;' ? -\. Yes. O. Had V oil any coint rsation with anv of them on returning A. Y es, when they ■wen" returning there was at Kisli Creek. a wounded man hrouglit into mv liouse, oue who was wounded l^. Did vou see Kiel among the men ,-ho went down? — A. No 1 did not. I could )t see them w-oll enough to identify them, I would not e.xpose niy.self that much. I was hid nu i}. Did'iit vou se(^ Kiel returning from the (iirection of Kish ( 'reek liefore the fight ? — A. No, 1 did not. Q. Did vou ever see lliel armed ? A. 1 saw him with a revolver. (^. t )n what occasion as tlnit? A. That was while I was a prisoner. liy Mk. Fitzhatuk- C,). You sa Riel in connection witii tlie present dirticulty for the first time last .July or AuL'ust? A. Yes, somewhere in July or August. 02 Q. Y on kut'w tlic circuiiistMiici's uiiilcr wliicli li'' ciiiiit' intu llir roiinti'v.' A. l»plit!V('(l lu' WHS scut t'of, as t'lir ^s I licanl. ( ). At till' lime VDii tirst sin, liiui, there \v:is ;i .ertniii aiiinuut i>t ii^itaf '"mi ii: tl oouiitrv, \v;is there not A. Y es Si, Q. The iiifiti\ti()ii was to ohtinii l>y eoustitiit ioiiai uieiuis to redress certain ;^rie\ llli-e, A. V that the 1 Jalt'-tireetls ])reten(h'(l to exist .' A. Ye: (,). Tliar agitation had l)een .u'oiiii,' on t'or some year> Q. Kiel toUl you wlien you first saw iiini tliat lie had coiiie tor the ]iiiiii!)se of tal part ii! that a,!j;itatioii at the re(|uest of the piM'soiis interested .' A. Well. I could say he exactly said tiiat, hut 1 understood he came t'oi- that i)Ui'|i(ise. (). You saw him tVequently from .luiy last u\> to the month of M ■lllli; not ireli A. Y Q. Did you, duriiif,' all tiiat time, hear anything' either from ■If iiniseit or an\' iierson else which wouUl lead yoii to believe that any tliini;- in the shape of a rehellion was in- tended l>y him '. A. No Sir. not till the 17th of .March. Q. Durini; all that tinn^ he lixed in the ccnintry. and took- part in all the movements that took jilace .' A. I helieve he did. Q. It was a matter of connnou rejiort lu' took part in;ill those nio\cments .' A. Y'es. I,). You never heard any extraordinary remarks passed with regard to him until the ITtli .March.' A. No. Q. You know that ditrerent petiti(Uis had lieen in cii'cuk'uion in the countiyand liad been forwa -(led to Ottawa .' A. 1 believe ihey had. U. Y'ou were also aware that as late as th.e month of I'el.i nary last, a petition was pre- pared under the direction of the prisoner, which was siiiHeii by yourself, and which was sent to Ottawa, or of which you af)proved .' .\. 1 iiii^ht have approved of it. luit I never si'fned it. H(^ showed me a petition, some time in .\unust. 1 think : but I never lieai'd of it bei!i^ taken around to be siyned. Q. |)id you hear of anything- in February '. .\. No. (,). At tlie time of that meetin.i;' which you referred as haviiiu' taken place on the, '_'4th February .' .\. No, 1 had heard the ( ioveninrnt had I'efiiscd liicl. that they would not have anythins;- to do with him. Q, Do you know whether any answer iiad been :,'i\cn to anv [letition that had been sent in'/ Any answer by the ( Jovernment .' A. 1 believe not. 1 never heard of any. Q. \t was a matter of common report jirev ions to the 17tli Man h. that the police force was l)einj,' increa.sed ? A. Yes, there was some talk of it. (). That -was nenerally cnnsidered amoin;' the penple there as bein,L;' the answer to their petition .' .V. [ could luit say. (j). Was not that the general opini(jii formed by the public report circulated at tiiat time .' .v. ! could not say. (). .\fter Kiel came into the country at the reipiest of the Half breeds do vou know, of vour own knowledge, that lie was very poor? .V, Yi's. Q. You know a sub.scriptioii was made u]. fiu' \.\io puriiose of enabliin^' liiiu to ixist in the country t A. Y^'.s, a subscri]>tion was made. Q. You know he also desired to return to Montana a;:ain .' .\, ^'es, there was somethini; s;iid about him returniiii: to Muntana. (l You said that the tirst timc! you he;ird of anything in the shape of an arm<>d rebellion was on the ITtli .March? A. Y'es. your kiio g. I| — A. Ye: <.). M i.i. A that (lithci and roguel Q. ^1 Church .' q. D he had cei Q. D that lni wi (,». W A. II.' sai (,). Tl ii. In A. Yes. Q. Di ill .July or much otlie il Ni March, in Q. SI occasion ?- makiinj; a i g. Pi q. H Territorie.' Q. D and that 1 Q. I) reason. g. I) this count devoutly. Q. T the 17th ] you liave (i:{ C^. I'p to tliiU time tliiTc liud liccu iiotliiii-' ot' lliat kiiui sjidkcu nt' in anvwitv ti your knowledge,'- A. No, tlicrc wen' some reports in (lie iiiipeis. Q. lUit fUiiOUi,' tlie iieople, luiioiiu yciir iiei<;liliois .' A. >'o. Q. When did yon tirst sec lliei after llie I7tli .' A. ru:ir\' .' .\. Sduiewii MTc in I'eiiiuarv. ii. At tliiit time did he not ha\e a ditlicnlly with Katlier Moulin, just state what tliat difKeulty was.' .\. Ili-aeeuscd l>ishop Taclir and Hishop ( Jrandin of licin;,' tlieives and I'oj^ues. Q. Made a i;-eiicral oiishuii^ht on all [larties conneetrd with the llonian Catholic Chureh '. A. Yes. ii. Didn't you clearly understand at that time that this man declared puhlielv that he had ceased to Ix'lonii' to the Roman Catholic (.'hurch .' A. No. Q. Didn't he say at that ;iinc that the priest \v,is entirely outside of the church that ho was a. [jrotestant .' A. Xo. Q. What aliout the word, protesiant, y( ,\. He said that on (he 17th of Maicli. Ill used 111 \ituy examination in chiet Q. 'i'he dithcultv with l''athcr .Moulin was in March .' A. Yes. and in Feliruarv. g. Ill .Marrh he said tl le lii'lest was a iiidtestant or something to tliat ell'ect A. Y Q. Did you consider at that time he acted as he iiad acted when you tirst knew him in .July or .Vuifusi with reference to the priests and relii,'ion .*— A. No, he acted xcry much otherwise*. U. N ow, can vour meiiH.rv eiialih* \du to sa\' what he said at that time on the 17th March, in his ditKculry with Father Moulin .' A. It was on the jsth March. (•i. State what took jihice, the words that xscre usml iind how he acted on that occasion .'—A. He said the spirit of Cod was in him and leather M oulm said lie wa.s iiiakiiiu; a schism ai^'ainst the Churcli, and Hiel said llonie had tumiiled, /I'miir >sf timih' (}. Proceed if you jilease, he said the Pope of IJomewas not legally Pop(> ? .\. ^f Q. He .said the ejii-copate spirit had left Rome and come into the North We 'rerritorie.s f -A. No, he did not say that. Q. I)id he say anytliiii!;- of that kind? A. He siiid the spirit c)f i'.m] wa.-> in 1 and that Rome had tunililed, and he could tidl future even'-s. 11111 Q. Did he state the reason why Rome h.id lundded .'—A. No, he did not ^ise tin reason. Q. Durini; .lulv, Auuust. September and Oetolie;, immediately after his return to this country he attended i-hurch as Roman Catholic generally do .' — A. Yes, he acted \ery devoutly. Q. The tirst time vou heard of the rebellion, lieard it talked of was at this time of the 17th March, and it is on that day he gave expression to this extraordinary language you hav(! just told us about ? A. Ve.s, on the ISth of March. 04 K\fvniiiio(l hy Mr. Huuitiiiix;!:. l^>. When you told Mr. Kitzputrick you uiulorstood the frovcrniuont Iiad refused Mr. Kiel, I understand you to lie referrin,!;- to Mr. Rier.s own personal claims, is that what you mean ? A. No, 1 .said the government had declined to accede to Kiel's terms 1 (^. You were leferring to Kiel's own claims .' -A. Yes. from what I under.stood, it was liis personal claims. The Court then adjourned till .luiy L'Dth. Kegina, wedne.sday, July 'JUth, 188^, Court rea.ssemliles at 10 A.M. (iKOiiiiK IvKHH, sworn, examined hy Mr. Casgrain. Q. You live at Batoche, 1 lielieve? — A. Yes. t^. How long have you lived there? — A. 1 went there in No\emher, in 1884. Q. Do you know the prisoner? — A. Yes. Q. Well hetween November 1SS4 an. Who held the meetings ^ A. I do not know, the council, I guess. (^). Tliey called at your store .' - A. Yes, they called thei'e, we were dealing witii tllClll. Q. Whf) w ere they ' — A. Mr. N'andal and Mr. Norbert Delorme, I do not know any more of them I think. Q. When was this .' A. In .lanuary and Kebruary. t^). Y'ou keep store at llatoche ,' — A. Yes. (^>. In partnership with your lirothei' .loliii Keri' .' — A. Yes. (). What did they do nt your store .' — .V. We traded with them for cattle and furs. Q. Did they call at youi' store afteithis.' A. 'iliey always called at the store and traded there as a general thing. Q. What was the tii'st iutiniatiou you had of any outbi'cak or insurrection? — A. The first intimation of any outbreak was on the 18th of March. Q. What happened on the iSth March f - A. On the 17th ^Farch there was a ru- mor circulated ai'ound the stoi'e that a meeting was to he held at Batoche. (^>. By whom ? -A. (ialiriel Dumont and Kiel, the jirisoner. Q. Well, what hajipened then .'—A. That is on the 1 7th, on the iSth he came down to the store. <^>. Who came down to the store ? -A. The prisoner him.self. (^>. Who with ? -A. There was a good many followers of his. Q. Can you gi\ e the names of any ? -A. Yes, [ can. F can name some, Jean Bap- tiste Yandal, .Foseph Viindal. that is all F can name. Q. How many were there aiiout '. — A. About .')(■). Q. What did they do at the .store ? — A. Iliel came into the store and demanded my guns and annnunition, just asked for them. Go Q. Wliat did you say 1 — A. J told liiiu thoy were up on tlie slielf. The store was witli cross beams and the guns were on the cross beams, I told him to take tliem. Q. Did they take them? — A. The Half-breeds jumped around to take them, and he said, "who is l>oss here'' / I told him I was, and he said " they have no right to j^o behind your counter.'' Q. Were you boss thoi'e at that time ? — A. \'es, t^. How did you allow them to take your guns? — A. I told them to take tliem. Q. What happened ?— A. He went away. Q. Who went away? — A. The prisoner. He told me then, ho says •• give my men what they want, and charge it." Q. To whom ? — A. He did not say to whom. I told him to take whatever he wanted in the store. (l. Did he come ))ack to your store ? — A. No, he did not come back at all. [ wrote him a letter the next morning to know it' my l)rotlier and I could go ped about two hours i think at Pellar's house, that is about three miles from where the store ^• :'.s ; when we were coming back, we met a load of Jlalf-breed women and Indians with packs on their backs. Q. Did you recognize any of tliem ? — A. They had some frying ])ans which were ours. I said to my brother : ''Jack, these are ours." He said "no." I said " 1 think they are." I went to one of the women and asktid her and she .said they had broken into the store and taken everything out. We walked on down to the store and when we went into the store there were four or tive Indians pulling nails out of the beams, the store was upside down and the Fairbanks scales were turned upside down, nothing was left in' the store at all Q. What day was that ?-A. On the 18th. Q. Did anything happen on the 19th ? — No, that was the 18tli. Q. Is that all that happened on the 19th ?— A. Yes, that is all that happened on the 19th. Q. Do you know anything else that happened that day ?— A. No. Q. What happened on the subsequent day, the 20th March ?— A. No, T don't know, 1 was not allowed to go away. I promised Riel I would not leave ii.y place of l)usiiiess and 1 kept myself reser\cd. Q. Did the prisoner give you any orders 1 — A. No, lie asked me if [ would promise liini not to leave my place of business. I told him I would and T kept my word. Q. Did you leave your place of business ? — A. No. Q. Did you stop there all the tini(> .' A. I went down to Mrs. Venn's Q. What for ? — A. I was stopping tliere. 5 66 Q. Did you ,£i;et back from .Mrs. Venn on the 19th? — A. Yes. (^. Did anything liappen to you on tlie 20tli ?— A. Yes. Q. Were you always at liberty tliere ?— ^A. Yes. Q. Do you know anything about the council that was formed there at Garnot's ? — A. Yes. C^. Undci- wliat circumstances did you become acciuainted with the council ? — A. I do not know as 1 can you give any information. I know the whole of them pretty well. Q. Were you at any time ari'ested ? — A. Yes. Q. VV^hom by ? — Yes, by Solomon P)0ucher, Modeste Roclieleau. Q. AVere they armed ? — A. Yes. Q. Where were you taken to ? — A. To Mr. Ludger (laroau's liouse, a French Canadians house. Q. Whom did you see there? — All the incu were there. <.^. WIio were there ? — A. I camiot tell you all the names, Norbert Delorme, Chai-les Xolin and Boyer who keeps tlie store tliere. Q. AVilliam I'.oyer?— A. No. i^. Jean-Baptiste Boyer ?— A. No. Q. Joseph lioyor? — A. No. Q. A man of that name who keejxsthe store?" -A. Yes. Q. ITow many were in that room? — A. 1 suppose 50 or 60. Q. Were there any arms around ? — A. They were standing at tlie door witli tliose double barrel shot guns. Q. Did you see the prisoner there ? — ^A. No, I did not see liim, lie was ujistairs. O. How do y(ni know ? A. I met him when I went in first. ^)id lie say anything to you ?-— A. No, not just then. ' Any time on that same day did you sec him .' — A. Yes, he came downstairs and tolc council that he had always found us very decent feUows, he said of course they ma_; - ave done sometliing that has escaped my memory, but he says " if they liave, excuse theni."' Q Who' was in command '! — A. Claljriel Dumont as far as I was concerned. Q. In command of what ? — A. He appeared to lie in command of the wliole outfit, as they say in this country. Q. What did the prisoner do there ?— A. I don't know, he was upstairs, when he came down he came to the council and lie says " perliaps something has escaped my memory, if there has,'' he says "excuse them." And he says: "Tliese prisoners are in your hands, do as you like with tlieni.'' And he .said : "Tliey always acted kindly with me."' (^. How was this council constituted ? — A. Philip])e Garnot was at the head of the table. Q. \\'Iiat was he doing ? — A. He was there. He had a book, sitting down. He got up and said : " ^Messieurs les conseilleis, these men ha\e come here and we want to know what to do with them." He talked like chat and tiiey came over. Q. Who came over ?— A. Dumont and Delorme. Q. Did you say the council was sitting there ? — A. Yes. Q. TJiey were in session ? — A. Yes, (.' \> Q <> g. light a1 Y : I! coiintr\ D •di Q. tlo not. D g- D Q- Di <»)■ W Q. La Q. A. No. Ca Q. W Q. Mc Q —A. N Di( 0, Q. Wl tlie meeting prisoner w, 67 Q. Were any charges made iigiiinst you hcforo tlie ooinu'il ? — A. Yes, tlireo charges. y excited ? — A. That every man was taking care of himself as Tioar as possilile. (^. Did ymi sei- anypeojile under arms, other than those you saw in this council? — • A. Yes, all around the council chamber they were under arms. Jiy -Mr. FlTZl'ATIMCK. Q. When did you first see Mr. Riel ? — A. [ met him in Xovemher. Q. Of last year .'—A. Yes. t^. You were aware he was in the country from November up till Marcli. till the light at Hatoche ' — A. Yes. Q.' l)id you have occasion to attend any of the meetings wliich were held in tlie country during that time? — A. Xo, I did not. Q. I).) you kni>w the nature of those meetings of your own knowledge ? — A. No, I do not. Q. Do you know for what purpose they were held ? — A. No. Q. Did you at any time attend any meeting at which Riel was present ' — A. Yes. (^. What time was that ? -A. J think in January. Q. Last year?-- A. Yes. Q. Can vou remendier what took place at tiiat meeting, was it a political meeting 1 — • A. No. Q. What kind of a meeting was it ?— A. A presentation to Riel of some money.. Q. Money gathered by the people of that place? — A. Y'es. Q Did you hear anything there about the Government in reference to the grievances ? — A. No, not a word. Q. What took place at that meeting?— A. My brother and I were invited to go to the meeting, I gave one dollai' toward it'myself. We were invited to the supper, and the prisoner was there. I guess the whole people were there. There were about 1 50 in 0« Hfijitisto lloyt'i-'s house. Tlu'i-c was ii pretty i,'0( id s]>iv;>(l, after tlic thing was started he madi^ lae and my brother sit at tiie first end of the talile. (^. Were any speeches made at the table ? — A. Yes, Riel proposed the health of ( Hir Soverei<,'n (^ueeu Victoria. (,). Riel did that ? - .\. Yes. Q. Did vou see tlie prisoner after that meeting? — A. I saw him when I left that night. Q. Did you .see him any otlier time hetween the time after that nmeting and the 19tli Maren ? -A. No, f did not. Q. Did'ut have any conversation witli him at all ? — A. No. (). lla\e had no intercourse with liim ? — A. Not since tlien. Q. Never attended any meeting held Ity him of the council ? — A. No. (). Do you remember a meeting about the -4th February, at the churLh ? — A. No, I was not theri! at all. Q, You ar(> quite certain about that ? — A. Yes. O. You said these people broke into your house the time you nent away for your cattle''?— A. Yes. Q. Did the prisoiuM' approve of their doing that, did he counsel it ? — A. No, f wrote to him the next morning about it, and I got a letter back saying that he did not advi.se them in any way at all. Q. Protesting againrt it ? — A. Yes, protesting against it. Q. J)id Riel take your i)art before the council ? — A. Yes, he took my i)art. Q. Did you notice anything peculiar about Riel at the time you saw him, did Ik; •five you any explanation as to his ^>lans or progrannne '.■ — A. No, he never spoke about that at all. Q. He never mentioned his political pi'ogramme ? — A. No. il. Never gave you to understand what he proposed to do ? — A. No, I did not know him very well, only sometimes to meet him. Q. At the meeting where he proposed the health of the (Ju'een, do you remember under what circumstances he proposed it? — A. No. Philipj) Garnot came with that paper and I put my name down for one dollar, and they asked me to go down. Q. Riel, you say, proposed the health of the Queen at that meeting ? — A. Yes. Q. Was there any treason talked 1 — A. No, not a word. Q. Thev were all pleasant together as loyal subjects 1 — A. Yes. Q. How long have you been in that section of tlie country ? — A. About ii year. Q. You knew that there were meetings l)eing held alternately in the vicinity of Batoche?— A. Yes. Q. By all the people '! — A. Yes. Q, You knew that Nolin took an active part in these meetings ? — A. Ye.s. (i!) JIknuv \V.M/ri;,{s s\\oi-ii, (.•xiuniucd liy Mr. Scutt ; <^». Whore wci'o you liviiiir in Maivli l;ist ,'— A. Batoche. (}. W'liiit WHS yuuv i)(.'cuj)iiti(iii ,' A. Kcr|.iii,i,' storo. *i Was it your own store? -A. I liad a jnu-liu'r. <^ What V IS your |iartii('r"s naiuc .'—A. llaki-r. <^, And tlie tirui's uaiiic .'— A. Walter^ iV I'.akcr. (i. On wliieli side of the I'iver was your store ,' — A. On tlie West side. Q. Js there, any houses there liesidcs your own store ? — A. There is only one liouso close, ltelonj,'in<.,' to tlie Hrui. (}. Batoelie proper is on the Ivist si(h'. ? -A. .Most of tlie stores are there. (i> Were you there on the IStli of March f— A. Yes. Q. Did anythiu!,' happen that day? — Yes, iliat evening this thini;' In'oke out. Q. What liroke out?— A. The reKeliion. The Hrst act was connuitted. (}. Whfit intimation had you of the breaking out of the reliellion ? — A. Aliout six o'clock in the evening of the iSth of Mnrch 1 looked out of the store, and 1 saw a j.arty of armed men driving towards the door, they I'ame up the hill apparently from tin? East side. Q. Y'ou say about six o'clock in the evening you saw an armed party driving to your door from the direction of the river? — A. Yes. (.}. What did they do? -A. They came to the .store and entered it. A man came and spoke to nie wliom 1 did not know at the time. Q. A man whom you did not know spoke to you?— ,. Yes, lie asked for the proprietoi'. I said I was the man. Q Who was the man who spoke to you ? — A. Tlie prisoner is the man. He said : " W(>ll, Mr. W'alters, it has commenced." (^. What did he say to you ?— A. I saiil to iiim ; " i suppose you are ^Ir. Riel."' He said he was. I asked him wliat he wanted, and he said he wanted arms and ammunition. I told him he could not have them. Q. i)id the con\ersation continue ? — A. Yes he asked me to give them up (piickly and peaceably, and he said that if they succeeded in the movement, they would pay me, and if they did not the Dominion Uo\ernnient would pay for them, it would be iJl right either way. Q. Did you ask him what had commenced ? ~X. Yes, he said it was a movement for the freedom of the j)eople, or soiiielliing to that eti'ect. Q. Did you ask what mo\ciiient ? — A. Yes. Q. He said a iiiuvenient .""'or tlu freedom of (lie people ? — A. Yes. Q. Was that before or after he asked lor the arms and ammunition ? — A. Jt was 1 lef ore, Q. When you refused to give up the arms what was said ? — A. He argued witli me and wanted me to give them up, and I told him that I (ould not do it. Q. Was anything done I — A. Yes, they tinally took them. Q. Did you consent ? — A. No, they went through some form and put their hands upon my shoulder. Kiel ordered the men to do that. I was swanding behind the counter and they forced their way past. 1 did the bi st I could to .stop them. 70 Q. They got past you ? — A. Yes, there were 1.") or -JO to oiu-. Q. Were all the party arnieil ?--A. ">, (i, 7. or 8 were iiriupil I rison<'r about the movement, did he say anything; Iwyoi, ' v ii.ii yu have told us .'--A. Xo he did not at the time. We talked. I thouijfiit lie wou.u not s..^ . "d Imt tli(>y tlKuinht he wtndd. Tliat was about all. Q. Had you any convcrsnl ion with luin at any other time altout the movement ?- - A. No, not in referenrc to rlic movement. He tohl me what tlicy were going to do when they took tJic country. Q. What were they iroing to do .' -A. If suecesst'ul he told me they were going to divide the land. Q. How was he goingto (li\ idr it .' -.V, One 7tli to the pioneer white.s, one 7th to the liulians, one 7th to the Freneli Hait'-breeds, one 7th to the Church and schrols and the balance was Crown Lands, I suppose (Jovcnnnent Lands. Q. Til! t is the way '--.V. Yes, that is the way I understood it. Q. Lands ot' which tioveniment ? -.V. (Government Lands, he did not say which Government. (). Did lu! make any cliarges against you ?-— .\. The time \ was arrested he said that sometiiing had ti'aiispired wliicli led him to believe I was in deadly opposition to his course, and he would lia\e to detain me. Q. How long did he detain you ? -A. 1 was allowed to go on ihe third day. The first night I was kept o\ t>r my own store. The ne.\t morning I was moved across to the church at Jjatoche. Q. And Kept three days ? -A. Xot tlu'ei' whole days, only until the third day. (). Were you then releas(>d ? — .V. Yes. tlu^ jirisoner allowed me to go. Q. You had a conversation with him on the other side ot" the ri\er ? — A. Y'es. Q. Did he say anything about tlie nio\cm(nt there?- A. No, he did not say anything very particular aliout it. Ht? said they would iiaxc no opposition from Prince Albert. He .said tiu> people wen.' friendly, he said if the whites struck a blow, a thunderbolt from heaven would strike them, that Cod was with their peo|)le. Q. Did you know of any meeting before the lieninning of this movement? — A. I oidy heard of meetings fi'om time to tinu\ 1 never was at any of the meetings. (,). Were there any other pri.soners besides you detained at the same place 1 — A. Y'^es, one young fellow that was with me iit the time, and during the evening Lash aiul his interpreter Tompkins, (Jpoige Xess, Tompkins and anotlu>r man that was repairing the line. That is all [ saw. '.,). r suppose they took tlie guns and imuiution from youi' stoi'e. did they take any- thing else t — Yes. Q. What did they take? -A. T dunt think they were taken at that time. They took it all out liefore the morning. Q. h'verything out of the store? — A. Pretty near'y everything, sonu; unbroken packages they did not take. They were there v.hen 1 left' Q. l)o you know who was superintee.dini.;- the I'cmoval of the goods? — A. Every one 71 lit'lpt'd tlu'iiisclves to the clotliiiij,' and mofassins 1111(1 in tlir luorniiii; tlic vfif oarryiiif iiway llu' lii-avy j^oodw, and Rid was suj»'rint(iidin;{ their icmoval. (j). Do you say tliat the prisoner superintended tiie removal of the yoods in tl uioniin;,'? - A. He was j,'ivin;,' directions, he was standing up on the seat of his eutter in a proMiineut position and tlu; llait-lireeds were loading up the yi'oils. iiv Mr. (ii{Ki:N'siiii;M)s. ».). low loili have you lieeii living at I'atoelie ? — A. Nearly two years. Ij). Were you aware that tiiere was exciteinent and ugitation jfoiiii;' on amont,' th llalf-lirt.'eds .>,(iiiie time pre\ iiius to this tinie?- es. was rumourec 1 I -\. Y( Q. It (^. Had you ivei' seen Itiel before the ■ ju he '•anie to your store? — A. No, not to my knowle(|Mi'. O. Did V on Know that lie came to th>. co itrv last vear ? — ^A. I heard at tiie time that lie came in. (,). You heard that he had lieen sent . .• >y the Half l)reeds? — A. Yes. Q. I^id you know for what pur[iose ? — A. Xo, I heard tliat the Half-breeds had j,aie- vauces. (,). And thev wanted liiel to assi st tbem '! — A. Yes. Q. When this discussion lietween you and the pri' "'>er took pUiee regarding the division ot the Nortli West Territories was tltat in th next d;iv, •e ? — -A. No, in the church. tj. .l)id you talk about anytiiiiii,' else at that time with him ? — A. No, what I was thinkiiHjr about was to trv and ijet awav. 1.-1 t r? V Q. Did he tell you that he expected assistance from other powers in this rebellion? -A. Xo, I cannoi sav ne oui X( (i). Are you positive he did not? — A. I have no recollection of his saying so. <,_>. Did he say anythini: about the Germans and Irish ? — A. Xo. Q. Or the Tnited States ' — A. Xo. Q. Did yon have any com t'rsation with him about liis religion :*■ that time lilLi.VAHD M ncilKM., swoi'ii, examined by Mr. Osier. Q. What is your o.( upation .' — A. Indian trader. Q. Where were you cai'ryin.u' will spciik t'm- liimsflf. Wliiit dati" wiis that ? - A. T (Idn't nMiiciiilpfi' tin- datf, it was oil Tiiiirsdiiy. I doii t iciiu'iiiin r tlic date ot' tlu> month, Imt I think it, iniist have? l>ec'n thf I'.ith. {}. 'I'ho Tiuif.sdny I'lfii'iliiiL,' what ? — A. Pn-iMMlin-,' the day of the |)iick Lake lij.dit. Q. What was thr llrst you saw ot' tin' |>risoiu'r/ — A. Tin- (ir'st I saw of the prisoiiof was snmo time after ( 'lifistiiias. Ili' came to my store then, and that uas the first I saw of him. Q. I s]K'ak more in reference to tlio first time you saw him after the troulde eom- meneed f - A. I saw him at I'atoehe, after eoinintt fi'i'ni <'ai-lton I went to Duck Lako and fiom there I went to I'.atoi'he. Q. On a Thursday? A. Yes. Q. At i'atooiie whom did you .soe .'— A. I met Dernard Paul, and 1 asked him what was the trouble. Q. Yon had a talk with him ?— A. Yos. Q. We want to conn' down to tho ooeuiTence.s witli which tlie prisom-r was connect- ed I — A. I went fo tho river, wh' re f mi>t this man, two miles from th(> riv'^r. Q. What took place at the river ? — A. I saw a ■,'reat many people around the river. It was then ^ettini,' (lurk. I saw that two or three of the pefiple on this side of tho river had fjuns in their hands, people whom T knew. I lecoifni/ed some of them, and when they saw me they ajipeared to '.»(> untiinf:; out of the way. On the other sid(^ of the rivei'. 1 saw a man standinif on the hill with a ifun in his hand. I went on to the villaije of IJatoche and .saw some English Half-i)ree(Is waiting with loads of llour. They said they had Ueen waiting,' all day to he unloaded, and that they had heen taken prisoners by Kiel. They wore loaded with llour, and I saw the loads and they were loaded with flour. Q. W^hat next? — A. I tried to get as much information as I could. I did not know whether it would be .«at'e for me to proceed, and [ did not know how I niiifht be received by these people. I .saw Fisher and also (larnot. and their opinion was that f could fio into the council room. I asked where the council room was, and Phili]) (lai'not took me to the council room. I did not i,'o into the council room, I went into the priest's house. I saw some j)eople standing outside, and I went upstairs in the house. Q. Whom did yovi .see ? - .V. Charle.s Xolin, Philippe Oardupuy and a ^-ninll man named JaeLson who was walking uj) and down. Q. Did you see the prison(>r?— A. F saw him after some time, T ^\■aited about an liour before I saw him. I .said that I wanted to .see him, and that was whai I came for. Q. Can you place this date more accurately, do you know the day Walter's store was raided 1 — A. I am told it was on Wednesday, not on Tuesday. Q. Was this after tliat store had been raided? — A. Yes, I left I Un'k Lake on Tuesday. g. This would be Tliursday the 'JOtli probably?— A. I think it was the 19th. Q. Had you a conversation with the prisoner? — A. i had a long eouxcrsation with him, he did most of tlie talking. Q. Tell us what the conversation was? — A. Some one told me that he was pleased to see me. 1 went down below, there was no light. He asked me to sit down and sairl he was pleased to see me, and that kind of thing. I told him I came to find out the cause of this troulile, what it meant. And I .said that he need not look ujion me as a spy, as I sim})Iy came as a friend of the Half-breeds, to give them some advice and try to g(!t them to go home. He went on e.xplaining the cau.se of the rising. He said that the Half-breeds had petitioned the Covornment .several times to have their grievances redresseil, but never got 78 a propiM" roply aiul tlio reply they woro Kotriii;,' now waw .'jOO pDliiTiiicii to shoot tlicin. I told hill) tlic whole thin;,' was a false nini(»iir, that no poiirt' were coniin;;. There always have heeii false reports, and 1 looked upon tliisone as not true, lie said it did not matter whether it was true or not. that the llulf hreeds intended to show the ( !o\einnient that I hey were not afraid to tinht .")()() men. either he or the others told me that that wiis said, lit- went on about the llaU'-lireeds ;,'rie\ani'es, and he said he had suHered himself, tiiat he had formerly l»een kicked out of the country hfteen yenrs ayo and kicked lait of ihi- House. He said a .icreat deal ai,'ainst SirJohn and the other Miemhors of the < ioverniuont, particuiar'ly a;:Cainst Sir .John. Ili said that he intended to lu'ln-,' Sir .John to his feet and talked a yreat deal of liosh. This was all in the dark, others were in the room, seveial llalf-l)reeds. (,). Ifetalkediis well of hisown ;,'rievanees ?— A. Ye.s, jirincipajly. All ho said al)Out the lialf-iiroeds ^(rievances was that they hail petitioned the (iovernment, and then he went on with a Ion;; stnn;,'of ins own ,i,'rievanees, aliout his hein^' turned out of the House nnd havin;,' to leave tho country. 1 thiid< lie called himself an outlaw, llo said he had lieen outlawed. (j). Ife was particularly hard on Sii' .luhn .' .V. Ye.s. Q. Then was there aiiytliin;; e'se i.f importance that eveidn;,' ? — A. Of course, 1 asked him to ;,'ive some decided answer. I tried ,o persuade liini and the people to ^o homo. I had to 1)0 careful as I did not know whiit ifround f w is treadin;,' on. \ did not know wiiat moment they would make mo a prisoner, and I did not want to ho made a prisoner, lie said ho was very ;,dad I had come, that my coniin;; no doul)t niiji,dit stop tho thin;,' at once. I)ut ho .said he could not ;,'iv(! an answer to m , as it would take some tinu* to consider it. He exprt.'ssed a desi. , to connnunicate with the (Joveriimeut and try and ;,'et the grievancos redro.ssod tlirou,<,'h tlie triograph. I said for him to ha\(' the wire repaired as there would he. a i;reat many fals" nod liy two men on the other side of the hill, one catching hold of my horse. They cana^ alongside the sleigh and asked me if i was free ? I said yes. .Vml I was allowed to go on. I came back to JJatoche tho next day to get a decided answer from tho people and t<> .see what they would do. and see if I had made any impression ujton them. (^. What passed that day' — A. 1 was taken to the council-room and 1 was told they wanted tho unconditional surrender of Fort Carlton, and I was asked if T would make that proposal to the police. I told them it was too absurd, but 1 s.iid I would be happy to arrange a meeting liotwoen Major Crozier and them.selves, Imt I would not make such a proposal myself. I?efore I came that morning 1 heard they had i;ot some plan for sending for me. L think I was to carry a white Hag ahead of those gentlciien to Carlton, and T was to make tho proposal to tho people in the Fort. They said if tiie polii did not surrender they would go for them. I think the police were to carry a cross. They told ine they were SOO strong. It was not Kiel that said that, it was at tho Council that it was .said. Nolin was the speaker. I asked him to ])ut up the wire. He said he could not, that it was cut below Saskatoon. The two things 1 asked him about were the release of the prisoners and about the wire. Q. He refused both? — A. He reloa.sed Walters and his clerk. Q. Was this the occasion when Thomas ]McKay was with you ? A. No. after that 74 T Wfiit ti> CiirltKii to try liiul armngo u inoctiin,' ltctwrn\ tln'in iiiul tlii> lirad of tin- ( Ji)Vfriiiii('iit, Major Crozicr. (/. 'Pile int«>rvio\v yon arc iiiiw speak iiij,' of woiiltl Itf on tlir "JOtli ? A. (Mi Friday tli.> -JOth. Q. Tlum you wfnt to {.'arlton .' A. Yes, and roportt'd ina(t»'r«. (}. NVliat lu'Vt? A. Major ( 'ro/.irr said lie was williin,' to im-ot Uicl man to man w itli or w illmiit an csroi't, and at any plaft' that snitcd. I nMiiird a iplar<> I asked the Majui- to send a written note to Itiel, lait he said that it was not neeessary, thont was no Ofca«ion tor it. MeKay went )mek with me. tj), Was it tlie lu'Nt mornimv th;it von went ' A We started from Carlton iilionl one u'elock in the niorninu'. \^ •' went to I link l-ake. | liad arran;,'ed witli the eoiiniil tn liave two masscn^'ers ready^ so tiiat I would not li.m' to yo l»aek to liatoeht^ ajL,'ain, and they wonM earrv the rejijy of tlie Major, and I found tiie two Areands waiting to ;,'et liie rejpjy froni ( 'arlton. (,|. Did yon send it on liy them ? A. No, I did nut say anytliin^' nt all about it. . . . . So the intersieudf the morniiii,' of the Jlst was arran<,'ed, and you and Mr. McKay went forwai'd .' A. ^'es. we went over to IJatoehe. Q. Whom did you see there .' A. A i,'reat many |)eo|)le. (J. Speakiin,' of the actions of the jaisoner, or the .vords of the i)ri'roni,dit up as witnesscH aj,'ainst McKay, tliat he was a traitor, and they talked pretty I'ou^ddy to itim. .Mr. lliel talked \.ry roinrhly to him and stiid that the j,'overnuHMit and the Hudson IJay Company were; the two eiir.ses of the country, and that he, McKay, was hand and i,do\e with the iruay Company. <^. That was spoken of McKay?- -A. Yes, and he .said if he was m>t cai'eful his lilood wonid lie the iirst lilood shed on this occasion. 1 told them I had asked Mr. .Midvay to come as my friend. 1 told the people he was one of Her Majesty's soldiers, and 1 told them it was ratle-r roii<,di for them to speak of .Mr. .McKay in tliat way. Kiel called down and said ; If Mr. McKtiy came as your friend, he is entitled to tht? same protection that you are, but that is the only thim,' that saxes him. Q. Then, what else took jilace ? - A. After that, i asked Kiel if he would come to the council chamber uj) stairs, we went up there and 1 told him the messaj^t; 1 had from ]Major Crozicr, that he would nu'et him man anil man at a certain place alone or with iui escort, and he ^ot very much e.xcited and said he would not take ^lajor Crozier's word of honor, that 1 ouj,dit to have brouj;ht the thiiii,' in writini;- antl he asked me to |)ut it in writing. I objected iit tiist but tinally I did put it in writing,' to the ett'ect that Majoi Croziiu' would meet either Iviel or some one sent for Riel's people if he gave him time. Q. You made a memorandmn of it and signed it ?- .V. Yes, to his dictation. Q. Then, whtit else? -.V. lie seemed vi-vy much e.\cit(. Q. Tsvo who would meet him ? A. Y''es, of course. [ carried this message liack taker and a secretary. (}. Was any one railed upon to act as secretary? — A. (Jai'not was secretary. (i. Philippe (iainot .' A. '^'es. at that time. ()• Wliere were you on the occasion of the Duck Lake trouhle / — A. I was with 'he troops. (i. On the occasion nt' tli:it liylit ? - A. I was advancing on to Duck Lake with the p'llce iuul volunteers. (i. A nd w( re vou ill the ti:;ht ? -A. Yes; I was in the tir^ht (^. And the result was thai you did not yet to t>u.k Lake .' A. Xo, we had to retreat. t^). You were not aiile to take pcssession ot' your ..tore 1 — A. W? d d not get to the store ; we were stopjted. (^). By reason ot' the armed forced? - A. Yes. i}. I l)eli(!ve your store was raided afterwards t-- A. Every tlnug T had was taken away and the place was liui'nl down, they made that phice tlieir headcpiarters for two weeks, and they cleaned my store out entirely. 7(i Thomas E. Ja(;kso\ swoni. twiiinincd 'ly Mr. ( ).sl('r. i^t. I) n villi live ;it 1 rilicf •t, .Mr. .Ia.'l< ;()ll -A. do. (Ill ;in' ii (IriiiTi'is t?- A. I ;nii <^). Ymi li;i\t' lii'i'u tlii'ic t'or sc»iiii> ycurs .' — .\.. Some six yciirs. (.». Youi' linitliiT William lli'iir\ .liickMiii 1 iiclicr wis one of tlic iii'lsoricrs 11. ail J ( (^. Ami lie liiid lit'fii ill the i-oinpiviiy ot' Jvici iiiiincdintcly prior to tlicsc troulilt luriai,' tile ti-ouldcN .' — A. For some tinic in'cxious to iliciii. (}. You liad known nt' llio i(io\ ciiifm and liic imitation tliat wa.s in the country .'- A. < Ml v.'s, and I .syiii|i;it!ii,;i-(i with tln'in. (^ I>id you know of tlic iirisdiicr licin:;- in tin- couniry V A. Y.'s, 1 I Knew ol Ml^ f h •oiii;!!!;' to tile countrv. hcai'il lie was coniiiiL;' slii irl l\' liftnl'i' lit' ciiiiic 1 i;U' O. You I KllfW ( if liiiii at'tci' lie can to tl ic coi nir\' A. Y Q. 1 1 iclicM' \dii Iia\(' seen liiiii write .\. Y i}. I )o voii know his liandwritiii!.;' A. 1 know his handwritiiiir. 1,^.1 <^. You went o\('i-, I I iciifNc. on an oci a-ioii sliortlv afli'r the Duck r^akf rn,dit forth ICS ot t llOM' w ho were sliiini'd ? A. I did, ! was (lie of those wlio went. Q. How iiiiiiy diiys after ?- A. 'riiier days after It was tlie Sunday after tlie llullt. Q. U OW { id you come to ^n. inuh'r what cin 'inistani'es did yoii take tlmt journey — A. .^[r. Sanderson who Inid heeii a ]>riscpner of Riid was reh'iised liy liiin to carry messaife to Major ( 'rozier to reiiio\e the (lend liodies, and Cro/.ier had taken him prisoner at Carlton and then took him to ''rince .\lliert ; 1 inters iewcd Sanderson and asked him ihout iiiv lirother am I lu' I old me he was insane <^>. ^'mu were eiKiuiriuLC ahoiu vour lirothoi fm 111 >aiui(^rson A. Y OS. Q. It was arraiiu'ed S; illei iiidi'r.^oii shmild ^o iiid ollered me to yd wit li him. Q. A ml who else vs cut with vou .\. \v A. Yes. Sanderson said he wns u'oin illiam Drain, U. You started I think on the lUst?- .\. Sunday the LM)th, the Sunday after the |i;,dll. Q V oil wiMit to I )uik I..ake ?- . es. {). Did you tl see t lie priSdlK ■V there ? - .\. I did. <). Wliat pass of ha\'in<;' taken up arms, that he had done it in self defenci- imd in talkinu' ahout the Duk Lake tiirht, ]i(> said he had le tl> re ill person, that after Major ( 'ro/ier had lired the tirst \olley he repliecl and he ui'^ed lii-~ m.'ii to tire, tirst in the name of (iod the l''ather, seconilly in the niiiu(; of (iod the Son and thirdly in the name Ood the llnly ( manner thouLiliout the hattle. diost , A\\([ n>|iea ted I lis lommaiuls in thai Q. NViiat to Duck Laki" \\ci!t to Hatoc (.>. iiat IS what he told \-ou ahoiit the eiiuayenietil A. Yes. (^>. What I'lse did he sav? -.\. \\ ' >poke of the ]v nie in the town and the settleiv ith tht i^encrailv. lie san d he had no desire m molest tluuii, that thi> s 'piarr(M was w ijoxei iimeiit and the ]iolice and the lludsiii l>ay < 'o. Ho w isjiei] tho settlers to hold aloof from t ikiiii; up anus in opposition tn him. iim he said if thev held aloof lie wouhi 77 U'' 1 1 1 1 U litter tlllll liiui xl hr Coil til. 11 I lets til.' hold huilti pirvcnt till". Indians from joining tluMii. It' tlioy kept aloof he was to opposi' the iiolice liiinself. (^. Did he ask you to do aiiytliiiiL; in icforenco to that? — A. Wv gave nic a Icttci' tc tlu' jn'oplc LTcncrally stating so. (i. Wiiat have you donti with that letter ?-- A. I ha\e destroyed it. ij. ft is not now in t^xistcuiee '! A. No. Q. Did yow read the letter ? A. ^'es. Q. What wiis in it, what was the purport of it? — A. To tlie eU'ect tli;it i. the people would hold aloof and remain neutriil, that he would not hring in the Indians, jind also to the etl'eet at the last part of it, that if they did hold aloof he helieved thev would celfhrato the "J Itli May, but that if tluy did not, the Indians would come in and jiarties from across the boundary and the result would be they would celebrate the fourth of .luly, some thinn like that. (). What was he Moini;' to do with Prince Albert ? — A. lie said he would i(i\e tlii'm a W(H!k to dt-cidt! whether (hey would acc(!pt his terms or not. Q. .Vnd in the event of tlieii' not. accepting his terms ? .\. That he would take the ]iiace. lie said Pi'inee Albert was the key of the position and that lie must attack it. lie said that if the settlers did not stay at home liut kept in town with the police, he would attack them all. Q. Whom did you arraiiije with t([uencc we had to j^o and reiiio\c them oiirselv.'S. <,!. Who was in cliai-Lje there, who were you taking orders from at huck Lake? — A. Mr. Ili.-I. (^. Who was j,'ivini,' orders ? — A. llic'l. . What is thtidate? — A. Aliout the lii-st of Ai)ril ; no, about tli(> Ith of April I i'lliiiiily. Q. Y'ou reached Hatoche when ? — A. That w.is some time on the Tuesday. Q. When had you left Prince Albert ?— A. On the Jsaturday. 7H Q. Tliiit WHS tlio fourtli of April ? — A. I rtnurliod liatoi'li.' on tin- fourth of April, on tlic Tuesday followiiiii. C^. Tliiit would lie tli(! scvcntli April ? -A. J suppose so. (J. Then did you see tlie pi'isouer ii Q. Had you any eoincrsatiou witii luni Q. fter you yot there '! — A. Yivs, I did. A. 1 ha.l. Ins was where A. On the South side of the rixcr lie dav vou ,1,'ot there was the day of the ti.iiht ? -A. The day I -ot tliert! Q. You hail a talU with him aliout youi Q. Did he say what was the matter wil l.rotli.'r ? A. V li vnur liro ther ? — A. He said lie was sic l< he said his nnnd was atl'eeted, iie said it was a judgment on him for opposing,' him. (.). lie seemed to Unow his nund \\;is allecle A. Y t^). Did vnu liiid lii^ nnnd was all'eeted ?- A. I iliil. Q. Mow were they eonsiderin;,' him, as a sane or insane man A. A llowni'' him Ins own >vav, liut thev had a ''uard over him (,). Did iiiel speak as to wiiat was liest t o eriiiissi on to jret hini awav. Ivum said he was ''ettiii'' aloiiL,' \eiv iiiei|\ there and that lie wiaild recover (.). Ill lid not let \(ui take him awav -A. N I. Ill' |■efu^ed to do so. Coun (,). Then ilid you make any foriii.il ajjpiieation to ^'el eil U. A ml If wa s srfused, I I leliev e A. Y es. it was n liiiii aw 'fused. av '! A. 1 did to the eitht (}. W'lial kept you in the camp '! A. Tiiey refused lo j.'t .iie yo or my In-other (J. (!i\in'' an\' leaNon eouneil room, ain .V. Yes. 1 1 1 eard a disciis^ion. I \. .;, upstairs in tin I li id spoken to .Vlliert Monkniaii to speak in aiy favour and 1 heard them diseiissiny tile m.itter. ( )f eoiirse they spoke in French and I did noi unders'aiid, la't Monkmaii was siieakiiiLr in ('I'ee. Kiel Ciuiie down to the room and i-oimnence'( to eiit, and wliilf he wa^ eatinu' Moiikiiian kcM, on talk 111'', ami he rus shed niis'.'cirs aiK ittacked .Moiikman, and in tlie course of his remarks he aciaised hiiii of iioc doiny liis duty with the hainlish I lalf hreeds, that he had not liroui,dit them up with 'JU men In had sent for them. Monkiiian defended himself anil I here was a discus.sion about it. ^lonknian said the rea^"'.i he did not lirinu them was Wecause one man said lie would if another Vtou Id, and Kiel told him he had liiven him tiicso L'O armed iiiiui to lirinj^ the leading,' men of the 1'iiiL.disli Half-Kreeds l>y force. Q. And whal Kiel was coiuplaininj,' at>out was tiiat the ordeis had not heeii ohevod ? -A. Y es. Q. And Moukiiiaii was e.\.cusin^' liim.self ? -A. Yes. Q. Did you hear any di.scussion aftei- your arrival tliere as to what they should do, as to any places that should he attacked? — A. They talked al.out attackiiii; Prince Albert : bul I li"]ievethev were waitiier for the Indians to join them in <'reater numbers. Q, Had they Indians there ? A. They had Indians there. Q. A this t ime about the St il of A jiril, could you form any idea as to the nuiidier of men under arms '! A. J could not say, I was told when I tirst arrived there they had ISOU, but I did not believe it. They said they were in houses near by. Afterwards I was told by Eiii,dish llalf-ltreeds tiuit tliere was only about 7UU. g. lied rl.iim against (,>. Did \ ilieir yrievane <,», In Ids A. I think hi th- llalf-bree iii\ l>rothei-. T 79 Q. Tlicii do you rciiu'iiiher an oi'casioii of a t'also alarm, do you rciiuMiilMT iinvtliiu','^ lifiuj,' (lone by llicl on tliat ofcasion '! \. On ont; occasion I rcnuMiilpcr lie inslicd to tin- cluircli and l.roiit,dit out Uic crucilix and ran around anioni; tlic lioiisc.-, lulling oui the men and insisting- all should come, and 1 saw lum go out and choose tlie ground u|iiin wliich to defend them. '-Ives, expecting an attack from the Hund)oldt trail. (,). lie went out and airang(!d tlm ground and warned the m(>n them all to tight and iuade [)reiiarations foi' the dtifence. A. Yes, lie urged t^. Did he ask you to do anything for liin\ ? -A. Yes, the tirst night 1 \\;is there In intimat(Hl he would like me to wiite some letters to tiie pajjcrs and pl n'<' a i,M(mI cdii.- ti'iiction on ins acts. Q. Wanting you to write to the Ivistern papers '.' — \. Ye.s, to place a fa\ ourahh nstriiction on his action in taking u]i arms. Q. I)>i yon rcmcmlicr anything, any particular matter he wanted '. — A. I ret'iised to dc at tirst, because he had not allowed me my liherty and had taki'ii awav mv brother. I iiv application to the I'oiincil, I said unless th(!V showivl me some consideration tl n lev (ou Id not expect any consideration from me in writing letters After the Fish ("reek tii;ljt, I ilioiiuh the thing was going to last all suiiniier, and I commenced to \\ rite for hiii t,). Then do you remember IJiel asking you ti> write any particular matter with let'crence to himself .' -.\. Yes, he claimed that he had api)lied to the (iovernment for an iiidemnity tliididnoi tell you Iji^iw he made up the account ? -A. Xo. He claimed in all, his rl.iim agiiinst the Dominion (io\ernment amoimted to 100,(1(10 dollars. (j). Did von know from him anylhiu'^ a-- to hj^ pergonal moti\es in taking up arms ? — A, Yes, he disclosed his personal motives to me on this oecasioii He became very mueli 1 attacked I lie luiLdish and the haiglish eonst itution. and exhibited lioucd his motive was one ot revenge more '\iite( Mr iinirrv, am 1 and freatest hatrttl for th ,-tl e hn;^li.->li ami Me tli:iii anvtlmni' else. (,). Revengi' for wiiat ? A. For his sii[)posial ill-treatment, his property l I'lM'tted and he being outlawed. leiiiLr con- (,>. Dieeii speakincj with niin, and if he could prove I had heen iucitiiix Idin, it would i,'i) hard with me. Had vou any otiu-r interview with liini wliile you were in clo.se confinement? — \ Not just then. Shortly after (Inieral Middietou approached IJatoche, ht> placed us in the cellar of (icorije Kish<>r's horse. The first day lie took me uj) to attend to tlie wounded incase there shoukl lie any wounded, and he had some talk then in roj,'ard to the wounded, and he asked me if I would attend to them as v 'll as if nothin,t,'had happened lii't\\'een us ? t^). Did you attend to the wouTided ? A. No, they sus])eetcd I was going to desert, and they put me liack in the cellar that night. (). Did anything material happen till the iL'th May? — A. No. () What liappi'ued (lien / -A. On the I'Jth of May a ilalf-ln-eed opened the cellar and called out and said Kiel was wijunded, l came uj) to the council room and jtresently liicl entered with Astley, and as soon as he canu^ in hv told uieM iddleton was apj)roaching and if l:c massacred thi' fiunili(vs, he would ma.ssacrc! my !)rothcr and the rest of the pri- oncrs and lie wlNJicd to send lioth of us with messages to ?diddleton. l^). Were \ ou to deliver the message? — .V. I was. (.,). Dill vou SIM! llii'l write tiie nussiig(>? .V. Yes, I did. I,). Is this till- nie-^siigi' (produced) ? .\. I heliovo that is tluMuessage. (). r.v wlioin was In written ? A. Writcn liy Kiel (TJHMiies.sage alluded to is exhihit 1') Q. I'll vou reun'i.ilii'i' v. hat you did with this message? — A. I lielieve I delivered it U, lo'iicral .Middicton. ( ). Vou don't know ? A. I don't rememlier the fact, hut I believe 1 did. (. ). With that message you left the camp? — A. I tlid. y. The reliel camp? -.\. Yes. ^ (Ji. And i lielii'M' you did not l;o Imck ? .\. 1 did not go back. I did not go directly to .Middhtoii because he cluinged his mind at the last. (,). Wlio changed his mind? A. Kiel, lie took us down about a mile and a hal and hi' ordered me to go to Jjepine's hou-e and wave a Hag in front of it. C^. ,]u^t to i;() back for a niomciit, did you ever see the prisoner armed? — A. 1 did on one occiision. (,). When was that ocrasion ?-- A. It was some time after the Fish Creek tight. I,). Who was in fliarge at Hatociic? .\. Hid. (,). Who instructed tlie inov cut of the armed men ? — A. Well Gabriel Dumont ins; aicted them immediate y, Init Kiel was over him. Q. Do you rememlier what he did on the occasion of the Fish (Jreek tight? — A. He 'vt'iil out with 1st) I .'n the night liefore and retui-ned with L'O. thinking there might be an ata-'- on ISatoclie from i 'rinee-All)ert or Humboldt or from the other side of the river, a- he k.i w (ieicral Midd.lcton's foix'cs were disided. (J, Yon s:ii(l you know tlir liaiidwritiiig of the prisoner? -A. Yes. ,). Ijook at this doiaimcnt dated St. Antoine 'J 1st March ISS."), in whose hand- '.Mtliii,' is tii;ii '! A. Louis Kiel's (Document ))ut in, exhibit Ti) Q Is all litis wrilin.,' on the third pago his? .\. ^^'s it i-. all his wi'iting. (). These ^i','naiuri'> aiv in (lartioC-; writing ? - .V. Yes, they seem to b(> (larnot's. Q. in vMi-o li indwriiinL.' is this document ? A. Louis Kii'l's (Dociuiient [uit in, exhiliit 'i). K-vamined l.v .\| i 81 (2. Ill this impiM' ill tilt' writing itt' Louis Uii-l? — A. Yos, that is his writing (Docu- ment [lilt in, K\. 7). (J. Arc tlic two papers iittMchcd here in I'icl's hiiiiil writing ? A. Yes. (Document put in, Kx. S). (,). l-ithis (locuuicui in liids handwriting? -A. It is. ( I )oriinicnt juit in, l''x. !>). (J. l'.'rlia|is you can tell nic tlio incaiiiiig of the word ex ovih> ? — A. It im-aiisi one of the tlofi<. il Is (his h'tti'r ill the handwriting of Riol ? — A. It is, with the exception of a piece of l)aiic-hand, wiiich appears to he in Piiiiip ( iarnot's writing. ( Dociiinent put in, Kx. 10.) (}. In whose writing is this .' — A. lliel's. (Kx. 11.) (^», Is Kx. IL' in Kiel's writing? -.V. Yes. \>. Kx. 1:1 and I'.x. II are l)Oth in Kiel's handwriting.^ — A. Yes, it is all Kiel's. (^>. Are these li\e sli(>ets, coniprisinn Kx. I."), in Kiel's writing / — A. They are all iu the hiindwriting of tlie pii-^onei. (}. IC\. I'l is in the handwriting of the prisoner .' -A. Y'es. (.). And K\. 17 is in his handwritiim .' .V. Yes. <>. Kx. IS, is this docuiiieni in his ha ndwritiiii: .'— A. It is all hut the last signature. Q. Kx. 11 <^ It is I I, is that III tlie liiUidv, n''i:ii )f I tie!' A. Yi liel's signitmv tliat is to tliis document ?-- A. Yes. (Docur lit put III Kx. JU.) (). he liod\' of till' wriM^u', IS that l«.ie A. N< (^. I'lUt the sigiiat are is ,' — A. Ye: .xainiiH •d liv Mi;. Fi i/.I'ai imck <^. Villi kiii)\\ imihiii';' more ni the doiaiin ihat liave Iioeii shown ycrn e.\ce[. A jHirely political agitation ? — A. Yes. <^>. You were in .•sympathy with the agitat im '! — A. Y'^es, i). Y ou were aware Kiel was iirou Ki ^•ht into tlie country for the jairposo of taking |virt in the agitation? — A. He was l.rought to tins country on account of his supposed knowledge of the Manito'oa Treaty, il The people of the Saskatchewan district were of opinion that Kiel could l-e useful to them in eonnection \vitli the agitation ?— A. Well, he was hrought iu princi[)ally hy the llalf-hreeds. The Canadians knew nothing al.out it till he was very nearly here. 1 1 Almost the whole of tht> peoj.le in tliat district had joined togetlier for the pur- pose of this agitation ? — .v. Tliey had. jji, <>N|*'?^; ;^ ;'**' (}. That imitation liiul ln'fu 1,'oiii.i,' on fur a considfi-alili' Irnntli ot' tiiiit"? A. Kor soiiif tiiiic. (.J. ('.Ill voii sav for almut how loni,' ? A. Fi\(' or si\ yaw^, or lon^^'fr. (^. hill \i)ii atlciiil any iiit't'tiii^s hrld l)y l!ii'l?--A. 1 attcmU'd tht^ iiic«tiiiy in Primr Alliort. i). Yon well- picst'iit diirini,' tliat iiir.'l in;,' ? A. |)iiriin; (lie ,i;rcat('r part of it. (K You licard wlial Ifii'l said ? A. I did. (). What date was tli.it iiH'ctiiiLT luld ? .\. I I'oiild not sav oxactiv, sonif time in . I line or .) idy. (.>. .\t lii< tir>t ai'rixal A. Y. !^. Ill' .-.talrd 111' uislird till' inoM'Uicnt to In' rntirclyaro i.s! itut ional nio\ rnniit A. I'urolv a fonstitiitioual nioM'Uirnt, hr sMid if (Iitn' nmld not yet what tlii'V agitated for i)i ti\ (' 3'tiir.'<, to ay;ita(i' for li\(' yrars niori-, that constitiitionai aiiit.alion \\oiild Lfi!t wiiat ihcv wiiiili'd. lU <). You knew lif fontiuui'd as.sistini;' in tlic ai^itation up to the tiiiK' of the ditliruity Marh '.'' -.V. Ill- «as tiu-rc as a soi-t of llalf-laccd adviser |)i"iniM|>ally, lir was not a lUi'UI ],i'V nf rlir I'liuihiittfi'. hut 111' \\ii> ihi'ir in (hi' canliritx' of llalfdiit'cd ad \ ISI'I'. It, hid \iiu ;it an\' iiiu<' hrai- he w i jicd to rc-.ort to .niv means .)ther t h.in ronst itii- tioital ii|> L ^\■. ■I. •'' .\, Xodiii (}. You. heinj; an ai'iixe |iartIci|)a!oi-, wotild naturrily have heiiid of nny sudi iiiten tioii if it had e\i.^ted ?— .\. Cei-tainiv. i}. 'I'here W.'is no ■-Uril nio\enielit l.]i to (ii;it till .\. Ni Q. .Vftei '.iip isl i.if Man-ii when ilid yoii iirst see l'.i(d '.'-A, When I went to h Ue lake (^), When ii.ni yon seen hini ] ui'vious to that time ? A. Sonn- time in .lanuar\', h was in t.;e tow n. (^). Had you eonvorsatiou witli l.'ini tiien ? .\. I had. (^1. hid villi s|.e;ii< to liini ahiiut tlie iiioMiiieiit ? — A. I dare .say 1 did, 1-ut I eaiiiiot remeiiiher. tj. hid ill', at tliat time, say anytliinu' to yiai tliat would lead you to helievo that lie iiitended to (h) anything.' that was not a eonstitutional aiiitation ?---A. Nothing of the kind. Ifi" iii'\er referred to anytiiinu- tliat N\as not eonstitutioiial agitation. ii. \t the diseussion you had with him |ire\ious to Maieh last, it always appeared tf) you that the ordinary means adojited hy the setth^rs >ver(> adopted hy hii." ? — A. Cer- tainly. <^). When you saw liim at huek Lak(> you sp..ke to him aliout your hrother and lie told vou your hrotlier had iieeome insane ? -A. lie did. (.}. lie tohl you he iiad lieeome iii>aue hei-;iuse he had oppo.sed Kiel, and that he wa.s ])Uiiislied hy (h)d for his opposition to Uiel ? A. That is whiit he !?aid. <■>. Y 111 iieser heird sm-li a reiiiat < liy Uiei previous to that time in any of vour other ron\ ersations w di him ? A. N (). hid it srrike you as a peeul i;ii' I'emiii k .' \. Xo. 1 dmi't t!iinl. < so. (,i>. You (himght it was ijuite natural siieh a thing should oeeui' '.' .\. I didiit .igice with it, hut I thought it was a \ cry niee explanation on his part to make. <,^>. lie told yoii at that tiiiM- llie prie>ts were einin ly upjiosed to him in the move- 'J- Q. s:{ iiifiit and wrrc ciitirfly opposed tn tlir iutficsts of tlic Norili West srUlfiiKiit '/ A. N. Iiiit he suid tlicy were oj)j>os('d to liiin. • •ritin ■vr I'litircly wruiii,' ami he \v (}. Ift? •,'a\c yoii tlicii to \iiidi'rstaiid tlii- |iricsts w . ly liijlit ? A. Certainly. <). Ill tact tli.'v did not know tmytliim: tlioy were talkini; aiioiit and lie knew it all ? — A. lie said tl ■y vvrrc working' nnlv tor (li,'ir own intcrt ^>. hid lie cxijlaiii (o yoii what his intent ions w ere as to t he di\ ision ot' the Terri- tories, what he intended (loin;; when he succeeded in chasin- the Canadians (ait of the country? A. Some time, inoi.aMy when I was |.iisoner, 1 heard him talk of dividin-- the countiy in seven or .-ivinir a seventh of the pn-ceeds to assist the I'oles, a sevenih to the lfalf-lirec(|s and a se\enlii to (he Indians. '). Some mor( to ihe !l iin:^- iriaiis ' A. ^'es. aed soon. I,), '^'ou said when you were Kiel's |)risoner, that it was ;iftei' the I7tli and |S|h of .March you heard him (liscu.^sinn- the fiUiire dix isioii w hicli he inteiied niakim;- for the 'I'erritories if he ,:,'ot rid of the Canadians .' .\. Soinctiiin!,' to that ellect, init I cannot ii'meinlier exact ly \. liai it was. 'i>. You lieard him (aJKiii'^ of di\ ii !•, (he couni ry into dill'i reni pails .' .\. I un- derstood:! was one se\C|i*■ i 'i.l he ihei! say Ihal he e\|iectcd any as-istaiice from tlic>e jieo])|e .' .\. No. it seemeil to he :! scheme of e!!ii'.';ral iiiii uku'c tlrm aiiNthiiii; else. (,*. His plan as he then unfolded it, did it !i])pear to he in cont'oriiiit v with the plan vou li id heard him discussini,' a', tlie |)ulilic mcetiie^s at which vou assisted .' A. ( )li '. no, ailo-'eilier dili'ereiit. (,). \\ ill y(Mi loo'.c at t his docnmcnl called the foreign polic\' (lociimeni. and sa\- if you can see anythin"- on it whi<'h wonld heai' oiu thai intention (o di\ ide up the count i-v (witness looks at exhiliit l"i).' A. ^'cs, *.2- 1*" vol! •■ec'i^^ni/e the hand writ iii'' ,is that of Louis iliel .' A. Il is si,ril)l)led that it is dilHcnlt to sav. (,). Willi it <'ertai!il\ is. IS on t lie otiier s|( le of the sheet is ceitaillU' ill his laiulw I'll 111!. .\. Y (,). And is tin' ink on the other side not the same as that .' -A. I think it Q. And don t V'lU think the hamlw ritin;;' i.s also the same.'- A. 1 could not say. (,). To the liest of \-our know h du'.'. does it not reiiresent liiel's liandw i it um .' — A. I think It" IS. O. liie! lel exjilained to yen w hat was uK.'ant ip\' the word exo\ ed le >li(l Q. Tint it was nieaiit lo coiney that lie was simply om^ of the (lock ? .\. '\'es. Q. That lie had no independent au(hoi-ity. but siui])ly artod as i-ne of tlie others ? — A. Yes, it was simply an all^'i tation of humili v. Q. You are aware that all the documents siyned hy him. as far is you ke.ow. 1)or(^ ;lie word exo\ede.-'- A. Tin; most of tJiein. O. You h; ul se\"eral c' new i.'liuiuii, ahout leaxum' the errors of the Church of Home out and adopiinii a more liheral u!ui. (^. lie explained tf) you hi^ new reliicion .' X, He explained it as a now lioci-al reliyion, he claimed (hat the .':'o|ie had no l•i^lit in this country. S4 ( ). hill III' ('(iiidcsi Tiid to int'Di'iii vtiil :is lo tlif pci'M)!! in w Iioiii liis ailtliiirilv hIiduIiI lir iiivrstcd ! A. No. (). \nu liclirvi'd tVom liiiii I Inn' wiis soiiic |irrs(in in lids country \\lii> vmhiIiI pro- liiililv l:iki' llic ]Misition of I'opr in I his 1 innit ly ? A. I tldii^ xeiy likely lir iii'i-ndt-d liiiiistdt' to tiilvc till' |(ip.-,il ion. llinl llir l'o|>c \\:is in Ins \mi\. (). Tins (ool< |iliicc iit'ii'f yon \\ iic nindc a |irisoni'i'. this ((tnx nsation iiliout ilii' nt-w i('li<(ion .' A. I tidnk so, and he aU<. >|iol >'nu area Ma jor ( ieiieral in her .Ma'iestys sei'\ ice '.' .\. ^'es. I,). What position do \ ou hold in < 'all ida ? A. I am eominanilinu tlie Iiomr niilit ia. ( ». W Ifl'c ilo \nu resi le ■/ A. e Territories at an\" 'inie A. 1 *,; When '•* \. I think i( wiison ihr iMrd .M.iirh. I was sent tor, the I'.'ii'd Maich l)\' .Mr. < 'a roll, anil told I .-should ha\ e lo h':i\ c at once for I he Nort li West. (,l. .Mr. ( 'a roll i s minister . Will" re;i>on \\as!,'iven you ? .\. lie told me (hey had news which was of a very liad char.nter, that a risinj; mi^lit take place, and I was lu yo ut once and he tisked when I could nd. (,). Wlic;i did voii ,t,irt ?■ \. .\!ii.ut t t.). What di il \iiU ilo w (I iio:n > atlerw ards. li''>t :' --.V. i \\ent sirai'_;lii Ut \\ innipeL;. < >n the wav t( Wiindpe;.' 1 think it was on tlieir.iin I hein-d of ili" |)iuk Luke Kaltle. When I ^ot to Winnipe;;-, I found the !H)tli was alnKwl rejnly tn march, that a small detai'hment had licen sent Id (^u ajiiielle and that the Winnipe;; IJatterv was read\-, and tluMi 1 heard more news aWout ( 'ol. Irvine licin;; afraid to ^o to I'.aioche as it was in tlie hands of the Half lir<"'ds. ;uid I heard .1 contirmation of the l)mk Ijake atl'air. 1 went to tin' Town Hall A]u\ inspeeted the '.IDth iui:wl that e\ eniiiLT I wi-iu on the (rain with t lie 9()tli and went striiiih*^ to (>)u A)t]i»lle witliowr stopping. • J. How lon;4 did you remain at ((»u'A[)pelle -^.\. I ciinnot exactly rcMU'inbcr. I Ma- there w.iifiii;;- for the formarioii of ilic c-ominissarial. •lijj. ¥oii left (^hrA])p(>!l'' and proceeded where ?--.\. Fort (,>u'AppelIe. %$ Aiid f loin rliat \ou w enr 1 o Fish ( i-eeK A. \ PS. *f Tliai v.tstlietir 'ccasioii on u liich yon met the oj>^>osin!.j reheld ?- -.\. ^ e.«.. (). \\ hat force was u cr your command wli.n you y..r (o Fish Creek ? — A. When I Eot t I Fi-h ('reek I h:ii! '.loth. I had previously dixidcd my forces and put the half (4 tlieni on t he ot \wA- SKI a' river. 1 had iiialer tny rumiediate command tlie OOtli, ike .so i-allc \ " llattei ., witli two Lruns, F.oultoiis .seout.s and I think that was all. <.i. H )w liny in all ? -.\. On paper there would l>e aliout ll'O or i'lO. '^'d r'n\ of die wuum.lfd, Q. Then you ino'ccdcd to Uatocln? ,\. ^'l•.s. (^). When dill you anivi- lii-fnf i'aioi-hf '/ — A. Almut '•• iiiilfs fiom llHtoclm I I h, iiiairhcd stiiiijiiit ■itrui'k the trail for I'.at n'lic on ilir >lli and 1 lir MinriiinLl ot 'In lor liaiociif on nn' >ui anil I'li iiir MinriiiiiL; or on to Uatiii'lii' li'isinL; my (MUip standin^j;. (j>. And when did tlii' i-U'^a^.-iir-nt lifL,dii '.' A. 'Mi llir '.Itli. the instant wc ifot there. <^. I >o you UH-an yon wi,.- lire,! un ihiiost on yo'ir l;"I< iii'- there .' A. < 'ii our arrival we canie I'li t!ie to]t mi the jii:iieiu and we ^aw a larue a-.seuil)ly uf ni.'n, and we opened lire '.' {.i. That was the iie-iniiiiiL; of the eii^aiienieiil .' A. ^'es. (^> The eny;|oe|neiil I'linMlllU'd till the I _'l h ? A. W'iliil I'.al oilie w a s t .t k eu . (}. I lieliive \un h 'd .nine ne'^oliat iolis ii.i tlie I'JtIi ' A. '^'es, nn I he i'Jlh I Jiad iiio\ I'd on 1 he left nl' ( ,ie .'iieniw I tiio\ ei| i d t he rii,dii in older to dra w t heir at lent inn au a v and i Icli orders with mv seeond in I'oiiiuiaiid that while I was away, iissoon as he heard tiriiiLC. thai he was \o retake the old posiiimi we had the |>re\ imis day. and a-> I drew the eiK my oll'oii the ri,nh(, he wa-< In | ires.-, mi the left. I went oil' with tlje e;i\aliv and :;uns SI) as to mtlrfi ;is mueji show a> possiMe, and I ke|il the enemy eii^^'aL."'!! soinu little time. In the middle of our eiiLraLreinent there, w hieh was (|niti' ai Ioiilc howds, I saw a mat t;a!lo|iiiiL; iieross the jijaiiis frn.n ihe direrlimi of the enemy wilii a MaL.'. lie eame riox-r and it turned out to lie Mr. .\stle\. lie huided me a lelt'T and he said '• I am one of the ]iiison. Is this the letli-r lie liioiuht yoM ? A. ^'e>. that is the same ji'llir |iut in, l',\l iliit 1. This is mv answer mi ilie liiek of i;. l(). Then what did you do with this letter? .\. I took it from .Mr. Astley .lud wrote mv answer and !.':i\c it to Mr. Asth'y who went away with it. (^. What took [ilaee iie\i ? \. Tiie iie\: ihinu' was, a man on foot eame u|i. (}. |)o vou know who he wa ^ '.' A. N'e^. lie wa-i .Mr. daekMih. a laot her of I he man who >viis a prisoner. lie ,ame up with another doeiuiKUit. lie had e.vaetly the .same storv to t(dl, that he had lieeii sent hy I'iel. imly he was eonfiised. He said he lu.d heeii told to stand in front of a hmi-ewith a white Ike; and e\ciuually lie said lie found tiiat was ii stupid work, and he . une mi to hie. Q. Ls this the doeuiiieiit he liiouy;ht. ( Kxhihit L') ? .\. Y. s. to the liest of my hidief it is. It is Uf exaet eopv of it, !»• oiiu.-<' it was a little ditl'ereiit from the wordiiii,' vi ihu other one. (,). Then what did vou .lic>iii(I iint woiidri' it" lie ui.iild smri'iidi'i' ' I 1,'iisi' itnltTH and retired my \vl:«ilt' I'diim' Ipv ilctrrccs and till hack iipDU my cainii, Q. What took pliU'c ii(>xt ? A. Wlwii I anived at tin* (11111)) I was M-ry inncli |iiit oil t and iniiovtMl (o linil mv orders had in-m iniMiinlcrsliiod, an I that instead of thfir haviiii,' taki'ii atdf to the front to see if there was any of tlif enemy in tlie int rem hinenl. I soon -ot tan^rilih' proof of it. The force that had their iley .niie a;/ain ;;aHopiin.'. havint; run the K.uintjet uf lioth forces. lie r.iu lietwecn llicm and came with a Mai;- a)id prodiiceil aiHit her lei icr Irom liicl. Q. Is t his t he one 111' liroUL;lii yoii th.it tinn' 1 pro(hi<'invc it ).- A. ^'(•■•, that 's tl in same line ',). Is this tl le en\ eliii it came in ? .\. ^'l's, ( \]\. '.'> and I ), I 1 ould not hi'ar w imt Asth-y w IS .^.lyinu'. I opened th" eii\ elope ami handed it to him. I could not heir what li"siid, 1 fried to stop the '^miis tiring' '" h'lr it. Inif tliat was hopeless: at last In- iiand''i| III' tic eii\clci|ie and pointi'il In it .iiii! I re:i(l what was on t he outside of t h.' en\el ipe and he said after Mr. Kiel liad cio^e(l the letter he ;^'ot it liack and wrote on it with A\t imh'lilile pencil and he said '' yon had In iter read whiit tliat (.). T len what took nlace ,\. .\s(l ■V s 11(1 he had lict ie was. •k w ii h and I said no. t lere was no neee:,-,i tv. lie said ill.' nrisoners mi;'ht oe nia- an ;inswer vd. I said tliere was no fear of tliat. that we would he there in iialf a minute. I went on forced my w.iy, liroiii,dit the ".Kith, dismminted the tioo])s imil Ljfadually pushed on. mil (.). And then the pi le pl.ee was c.irried .\. Tiien tl le inacc wa> cai rieii <\ a series of riish('> wi' forced our w.iy ou ami the eneiny dispersed alto. 1^. H iw lr)ie^ afttn' that was it h"fore the prisnner was hrou^ht to \du ? .\. 'J'liat was on the r.'th, \\"e halted the Hhii I'ld m:ire(-ii seen aiul instead ifoiusj to Lenine's 1 tun crossiiii;-, and sent out all the se«nits 1 could with directions to seandi the wood as fai' as Hatoche. ()ii the l-">;h Iviel was hrou'^ht in l>y two M-outs, Hourie and Ariiistroni;-, and hroUL:hi 'n my tent, and when he eutcreil the tenr he produced a paper which \ liad sent to liiai say iiiij if he surrendered I would jirotei t him till Ids ease was decided liv the (.'aiiadian (lovernmeut. Q. What was done with him when he was first hrouu'ht in? .\. lie w a ■; hrinicrht into my own tent. Very few knew he was there, 1 kojit in my tent all day. 1 liad another tent pitched alongside and he was put in that tent under charge of cajit. Youiiif, with two sentries with loaded arms, and durin;,' vhat ni^dit ('ai>tain Youn;; slept in the tout. Q. IIikI you imy roiiMTSMiiiin with (ln' prisoner wliili' ln« was tlicii- ? A. Yos, iluiiiiLf till- liist (liiy In- vMt.s tlific I liidi 11 .iiinffsiif inn witli liiin. (,). I>i(l yon invilc any i-onxcrsiitinii tVoni liini '.' A. I (line siiy I iiskt-il hiui oiu- or two (|H('stiollH. Ill' talked \ eiy iVeejy to ine. (^. Anr.'^eiiiatii>ii us to liis share in the niatiei? A. No I eiin hai'illx icinenilier. I was writing; at the time ami then I sti>|i|>e(l wrilin;,' ami talked to .Ml'. Itiel. TIm' only om- thiii'4 I can rememher pai-t ienlai'ly as lu his share intlii' matter was as I was |ca\ iiii: t he lent, he sail I : "' ( Jeiieral, I have lieeii ihinkili;; whetiitT it" the licird had iti'anled me as derided a \ ietorv as he h.is vuii, w hellier I should have lieen to |lll t n d Use." 'I'liiit was the onlv t hiii'' he said as 1 h'tl the lent. 1 had talked a i,'ood deal vith him no diU'errnt matter.' (,). 'I'lieli he was sent dnw li w it h ( 'a|)l Jlili ^'^lmi/ ? A. ^'es, I telej,'ril|>heil (low 11 to the (Jo\eriimeiit to say .M r. I'iel w .i> i |irisi(iier and to know w hat was tn he d(Hie with him, ami e\eiiiually ! was direrted tci send him to Kei,'iim which I did, under tiie ehar^^e ut" Captaiii N'oiiii;4 with iwijve men ami a ser;;eant. I'Aamilied l.\ .Mr. < ;iii;i:N.siiii.i.i) <.». V on were in eoininan 1 '<{ the f o|-ees III t In .V.Mlh \V..^t 'I eirilorie A. V y). In the eoiirse lit' ill It e iiiaiid did yoii issue any i,'en«-ral instructions or |irochi- iiKilion to the iidiahilaiits ? .V. Weil, onre when I was at h'isli ('reek. I sent a comiiiii- nidation hy an Indian to say that the ( li>\ ernmeni had no war aL;ain->i i he Halt' 1 needs or Indians, that those who liaii li;'en forced aijainst their will to join Kiel would hi' |iar. Ahoiit whit time \\a-^ iliii '.' A. Thai must \\av lieen Let w ecu i In J it li of .\pril ainl I he "nil ot May, while we wcielyiiiLjat Kisli ("reck with the wounded. (,). huriiiu the time Kiel wa- in your tent, did you ha\c anv i (ni\ eisat ion with him re.i,'ardiii^ lii-> reliMimis \ lews'' A. W'idl yes, he talked a ;^()(m1 deal ahout his religion. (,). hid .\-vtlcy make any remark to \nu ,;l the t inn' lie I nought these i wo inessai,'es I hat liiel w ished as a condition ot' his surrender that he sliniild he reco'_'ni/ed as tlie head ut' the Church he had t'nrined at I'.atoche, or remarks to that elh'ct, .\. No, I diui't think so. I rememher .\st!ey > lyiuLi '•( 'iiit'oiind him ! he is always hotheriii',' ah(Mit his religion. lie his anxious voii shmild know ah mt his reliifion, or some lliin^ like that. q. Th het' lis was iM'tme vou saw Kiel .' A. V (,). W'hilt did he >a\- to you. that is Kiel, when you had this con\ crsiit ioM with him rei^ar liiii,' reliifion .' -.\. I could hardly tell you. It was a disconnected tliim,'. He told me that Koine was all wrony; and the priests wert; narrow minded people : there was nothing particularly except the ideas of an enthusiast on s(Uiie reli!.;ious point. ,). Did h sav to vol! lie was a propliei .> o. <). And endowed with i le spin t of (iod ■/ .\. No, nothing of that sort. '). I'mler what circiinitances was the pa}>er which you sent to Kiel otleriiig him pro- tection sent ? — .\. I don't exactly know what you mean. That f think was sent when Astley told me he ^\ as anxious to surrondcr. Q. It was when .\stlev told you he thought Kiel was anxious to surremler that you sent hiiu that 'I -\. 1 think 1 sent it out hy a scout, I lia\ e got a co]>y of it in my hook. I think r sent it hv a scout. Q. Was there not a man came on hehalf of Kiel after the liual cluuge and after JJa- # A^ ^^> €<^. ^%. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) [ 1.0 I.I ■- Ilia |5 iii litt ^ 1^ ||M 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 < 6" — ► V] <^ /2 '<3 ' \\ 'attery .'--A. Yes. (). Were you witli ( leneral .Middleton's toi'ces liefore l>atoch<> .'— .\. Yes. {). In what po-;ition were you .' .\. I was liriyade .Major of the infantry Ininvide. O. W'l'i-e cou with the f(U'ces on their arrival at llatocln^ .' -A. I was. i^. Did you hear any lirin^;' ahoiit t he t ime you arrived .'—A. As we .sujipo.sed w c were Hearing' llatoche we lieard hea\y tiling' from the steamer. That was early on tlie nairniiii; of the *.ltli .'Way. \',-e iieai'd the sieamei- hrini;' and whistlim;- for a.--sistance. Q. You uere pres(Mit dinin;,' the ii;;htin,L;' on the !lili. Idth. 1 1th and I'Jth :' A. Yes. O. Were vnu wiili the advance ih.it went over the lillc pits in 'he List chari;i ' - A. 1 was. O. You \vei'e one of the tlr-.t who weni into a crrtain house f helieve .' -A. ^'esSir. Q. (Jan yon des^'rihe what hou-;e .' \. The hmrse known as their council chamlier. Q. What did you find there .' -A. In the ujistairs. I found a lai'^'c nundier of papers and hooks. Q. Where did you find them ? -.\. On the tahle where they had left them, fasteiH>d to the wall in paper cli|(N anfl some in two hoxes and some in a small leather reticule : they were generally throui^h the room in jilaces of safetv. accordiuL;' to their importance. C^. What did y(Ui do with them ? A. f laslied th(> hooks and papers to.ijc^ther witli a rojie and ;,'a\e tliem to an ai'tillery Serjeant to take to Col .larvis. Dtlier papei-s wei'e found liesides tjio.ic I found in the council idiamher. ami as they turned up, J took pos- session of them. Q. Did you examine these jiapers ? -^\. I did. (.^). Do you recOi;'ni/.(> that, ( Xo. ."i), as one of the ])a]iei's ? A. I do. (), Do you I'eco^nize that as one of the papers you found, ('l)i'ls tiulitiiii;- a^Miiist tlic troops, aii-aiiist rjciicral MiiUllcton ?— (,). How w(M'(> tliov ariiUHl? A. W'itli rillcs and shot uuiis. (J. I'ow iiiaiiy ilays at'tci' ! .aii'viic w as llic! takfii ? A. Tlic last (lav of liati was Tuesday tlie 12tli, and tlie ])i-is(/ucr was Iji'ouglit into camp on tlic afternoon of Friday tlio intli. Ife was l)rouy-lit liy tlii^ scuuts to tlie tent of tli(> ()(>!ieral and was lield lliere foi' (litest ionint;'. (.,). Was li(> afterwards put u niler \c)ur cliarij'e A. I was sen 1 for li\' the < ii-neral as I had known tiie ])ris()ner in tlie rehtiliion of ()it-70, to s(^e if 1 wmdd I'ticoifiiize him. I repoi'ted that tiiere was n,i mistake as to his identity ; ahnnt lialf jjast nine word was sent tliat the (lenei'al wanted me. and 1 went to the tent, and the (icneral tdhl nie that he wanted mo to take eliari^c of th(^ iirisoner and lie answeralile fur his safe keepin-'. I had charge of him till I deli\('ri'd him to ('apt. Dean, on the ll'ird May. (,). Had \'(U1 friMiucnf conv ersatimis with him diirinij' liiat tiiia* (,). Did ]\c. speal: freely and \(iliuitaril\' with xnw '> A. Cons:: it! V. A. Yes, he talked all ih- time (,). ^'ou did not order him to niak-e an\' statements to \'ou A. N one at all. K. Did he sp(»ak at all in re,^•ard to the Indians he e.\peeted to act with him. h many there w('r(> ? Mr. FtTZl'Vl'KiCK. --1 raise a formal olijeetion to this pai't of the e\ idcnce ow IlLS was a stat(Mnent ma.de hv tins ma' to tl lis iiers m w!io was in elia.r''(' ot Uim Ills iIoNoi{. What is vour oliii-ctioii .Mr. Frrziw'i'iiiCK.- A statement hy a jirison'M' when in custody to the person in ■hai;j(' of him is not admissilile in e\ide nee .Mr. i!ri;nii)!ii;. -Did von h.ild out anv inducement to liim to make a statement to N'OU A. N. (>. His statement s were \i)luntar\- entirelv A. Y (}. Did you oiler aii\' iie! iic(>mi.'nts or make ]iromise> of any kind A. N. .M r. I' l!'/I'AI KMCK. It is not admissilile in e\i(lence unless he made it \'oluntaril\' Mr. l)iniiii)(;K.- A. What did he say aiiout the Indians? -A. On the Saturday i he ( ieiieral wished to know as to tin' moNcments of some liands mIio intended to join the reliei sent Cowards I If ua\e thi^ Inforina- eu- forces. and the prisoner sjioke aliout a niesseni;'er. ( 'liic-l-( 'urn. wlimii Im had i'lince .VHiert and I'.attleford to iiriin; men with him to liatociic tioii to y:i\'<( to tlui (Jeneial as it niiyht he iiossilile to (li\( n't the Indians from their int tiiiii. (}. Did he say anythiiii;' ahout seiidiii!.;' runners icat to ihe IkuuIn .' .\. "\'es. in the N'ortliAN'est and also towanls Cypres Hills. (J. Did he sjieak to you of any other aid he expected to receive .' A. I was instruct- ed to speak uliout possihle aid from Irish synipathisi rs in the I'liited States. .Mii. Frrzi'.A TKicK. ( ). Were \'ou instructed to sneak to him .ahout that ,' -A. Yes. M H. I' nZI'AI KICK. iieil 1 olijec .Mi(. Hrniiii)(;i:. We will not .say anythiiiLf ahout that. i). Did he speak ahout the hattles?— A. Ahout Duck Lak(\ Q. What did he say ahout tliat ? — A. We had a conversation as to the way it 90 i)i;cumxl. He iusisti'd that Miijnr Ci-o/,i(!i' iiri'd lii'st. After the Hi'st Hix' lie said that lie liiul instructcfl his men to tire. lie gave tluve coiimiands to tiro as li«! e.\{)lained it. Tlie first as I romeiiilier it, "was in the name of (Jod vvlio made us, n>f)ly to tliat." They tired and Cro/.ier's men n']iliefi, and he said, " in the name of (iod the Son who .savod us. reply to tiiat." And tlie third was "intliename of (Jnd the Unly (ihost wlio sanetities us, vv])\y to that." Ife spoke also of the eii'eumstances lliat aftei- (iaiiriei was wounded, a scalp wound i ihink, hi; eoiitinued to ioiul the guns of the men till stopped hy the flow of hlood ai ^s'hen lie could not do that :i!iv longer, he said .M^ )oor ( hihi ren, what wilil vou (h \'()U aiiv lon-'ei'. W e spoKi> II J can't lie to the death nt' an old man I tliinlc was his name, ile toKi me that as he was dving he called o aw Ivnii;' ileail on f I'.atoche after his ca]»ture in reference the face of the ravine, Donald Ros.s I lit for his relati\' es anil cliiii!t'en I o eoiiie anil see liini li(>fore he died. '}. Did he sav anything about the disposal of his forces at the tight '.' — .\. We were conversiu'' about the dirt'erent lines of ilefeiiee. ile had three, as I undei'stood, a. doulde Mie o f rifi e pits and a lower line again. H e explained how the scouts wi •re to fall back wli ditteri en pressed, that were to be tlu'.'e in each pit. He said that he and (labriel Dumont [en'il. Thar Oabrji'l's o]iinioii was that the rebel right was the key to the position, and should be defeiiilc'i. Tlie prisoner's npinion Nsas that the w hole line should be especiaJly defenileil. 'I'he mittei' was decideil in couiiril in fa\our of his \ iev,-. (^). i)iil \u- speak alueit the ligluing qualities of the Indians.' A. lie said in the eai'ly pint the nioveinent was all cari'ied on by iheilalf breeds, Init when it came to light- ing rlic jndiiuis were the bi avest of h IS soldier; Ic was aware ot the death or iM'cnch and of many otiiers instanres of the tight. I was positive from the instances he talked about rliat h li' must liax'e bi'eii opjxisite to me a t dim rent times. O. This cot ixersatum took plaee when he \\a,s undei' your chargi .\. Y es. '.V .Mi;. Fit/. I'ATIiiCK. O. The informal ion gi\en ro you by the prisoner was intended to be given to the ticneral in reference to the Imiians, Cliic-l ('um '. :\, Yes. Q. He g;ive the information for the purpose of enabling the (ieneral to take such mei-.ures as were necessary to prexcnt an\' ( itiicultv with the Indians; — A. He did. Q. if,. \). I uiilerstand yon were in command of the Winnipeg i''ield Hattery? — .\. Y'es, n. On a-tive serxice at the battle of liatoche ?-~ A. Yes. (.). Were you there on the ll'tli of May? .\. Yes. Q. Throughout t!ie whole four (lavs ? A. Yes. Q. Wei'c any pipers handed to you dui'ing that- time ? A. Yes, towards the end o£ tie en^Mgement on the li'tli, the last dav of the (MigageiiH-nt. o, D. !)iit not of till'lll (). O. o. 91 I'.y wliOMi were tliny l.rou^rht to you? A. By one of tlio stiili' sfcyciUits of tl le Would you r('coi,'iiiz(' the piipcrs ? did you cxaiiiino tliciii ?— A. I cxiiiniiKHl tlicni piu-ticuliirly suiis('(|u<'ntly, aliout two days aftcf, liy nrdci' of tlic (ifiicnil. You would ivco-ni/.c tliciii 1 .suppose, l.^ that one of tliciii (0)?-- A. Tliat is oiio Do you r(U'oi,'ni/,i> that (.">) ? -A. Vcs, that is one of them. Do you rciM.--iii/.(> tliat (7)? -A, Yes, that is one of tlicin. Do you iTcooui/,. that (1:'))? A. Vcs, tlui.t is one of thcui. Do you ivconiiizc this ,'! I and ]•_')? A. That is also oiu^ of tluMn. Do you i'Cfo;;-iu/.<' tliat one (!ti) ?--A. Yes, that is ouf of thciii. .\iid tliis (I.")) ? --.\. ^'cs, thnt V.MS also aiiiuii^ the paj.ers. M.V.IO!! (JltOZIKI! svvoni, rxainiiicd hv Mr. ( •si,i';i: {.). I lie! K'\ (> vou arc an olHccr in thi! mounted jolici^? A. Yes. (). At xlir time of tins trouhlc comm.nidini;- in the noi'tli district? A. !"( ,Q. With 1 lead-HUartci's at llatti Q. (Jai'ltou was the | innci|);ii (HI ■fofd?--A. Y( tpost ? -A. Y n commanil ot -A. Sa|>eriutcndcnt (.'a^-non. Q. I I iclieve vou arnvci 1 al (,' iiriton on tlic 1 lt!i .Match ? ~A. Y( 0. Y ou I'cmained I here till after the Duck 1/ Ike iii^-h t? - A. Y cs. (). What force had you immediately licforc the Duck- l.,ake ti^lit at (,'arlton ? A. We had fifty men on my arrisal on the i Ith and I hrouLjiit twenty fue men afterwards Q. And then ?-^A. 'Jliat was the full strci ,i;'th of the police. Q. \o\\ were joined liy some N'ohint^'crs? -A. I5v the Prince AHiort vclunteors ahout tho -Jl.st. O. I l)eli e\-e vou iieard tliei'c was trou)>ie a nd ,-ou l.SS ucd I proclamation -A. I (lid. sir. O. And then tl ii^i'c was the enij'a th 'laeiit w{> ha\ (> heard of? — A. There was. Q. Your terms as L;'i\'en to your agents were ? — A. Ca])tain M M'd\av, of Prince .Vihert. were the men that 1 scut out. oore iMHl Tl ■omas Q. Witli instructions ? —A. 1 told Captain Moore to tell the men whom lie would the men had heen led into (his atl'air, that I me(>t trom tl 1 lliel tiiat as I iiel lexed maiiv ot loped they would disperse aiu d U'o to their homes, and 1 lielieved that the (iovcrnmeiit Wo uld consider their ease and would (h>al leniently with them, with the excejition of the riiiL^'leadors who would hnvr to answer for their oft'eiice ; that I would do in my powe to i^'et an amiiest\' for the rank and :ile eiiii Q. Do you know 1 tell wdiat was told low tlios(> terms were receivcf me. 1, of your own Know Icd-e?— A. I O. The result was that they still continued in arms -A. Y es. Q. You ori'anized an advance from Fort Carlton on the morniiiii' of the L'Gtli ? — -A. 1 es, it was not an advanee in the niilitarv «en.se of the word, I went out for the pur- pose of ofettint,' some provisions at a store at Duck Lake. (r» (^. lliiviiin scut out a siiiiillci' [lai't V in the iiioniiii:.', who if'tunu'il uiisiUH'cssful u\. I'flV rli 111. (). 'riicii \nu were jiroi'i'ciliiig to yt't [irovisioii.s. and you were met hy a A. I'y a lai'i;r ])aiMv of ri'licls. <2. i>i(l you iilmlify any ot' till' [laity li'udini: ? A. Xo, (). Til (' result was ;i con t.-st? A. V (). Viiur t'orcc was lii'cd u])o;i ? A. Y (.). A. nd scx'cral killed and wounded A. y (^. Did you L;ct the provisions ? A. \\'c did not. (>. W'hv? -A. We could not \K e 'veil [ii'fncnted liy an .".I'mcd foi'Ci n-bcls. C!. 'I'lieii did vou receisc a letter nr coiuniunieaticjn after the liy'lit on the liTth of .Mai-ch? A. I did O. Who ua\"e that connniiiucat inn vo you .' - .\. Sandiu'.'-oii (.). Ah iWi'' \'o;i to cohie for "-^lur dead, had It this eoiu' of the udnute attached whon you receivod it? -A. Well. I cumot swear to that, 1 don't recollect that luinuto, the other jiart i rcinnunlxM' di>;tinctly. I lianded it to my coniniiindin:^ oificer aft er I'cceiv in:;' ii. -A. Y Q. You do I'ccollect getting this d.ocunicut purporting to Ix.' signed hy the prisor.cr (). Thai is. in etlect, a letter asking vou to send for vour dead ? -A. Y'es. O. NNhoin \ou had heeu coiuiielled In le;ive on the li(dd?--.\. "^' OS. O, Tl lev were sen t for .'' — A.. \ot then, ihev werc^ sent for afteiwvards. (^. Wiio couijiosed the torces tli.it opposed you, were they all Half liie(>ds ? - A. I dou t thinii so. 'I'o the hest of my kno\\ ledge, they were not. Q- I >id vou sec anv Indians '! -A. I saw uicii dressed as Judians, ami wlio looked 1 Ike iiHlian.- eleven yea: carr\' out I r.v .Mr. lMr/!'Aiii ICK. (2- NVhiNi you roaclH'd the plm <■ where the tight took place you advanced yourself, did y(ai not ? A. Y'es I did. (). .\ short distaiK/e in ad\ ance of youi' ti-oops ? --.\. Yes. (2- You were met hy one from the opposite side?- -A. Yos. Q. Who was that ? \. I dont knov;, he appeared to l)e an fiidian. (). WTiat hecame of that man? A. Tliat man i heard was killed. (>. Did you see him drop? A. 1 cannot say that I saw liim di'op. (.^. Was he the first man killed to your knowledge? — A. I do not know. Q. Yon did not see any of the mo'i drop your.s(df ? — \. i cannot say tliat 1 did, attention was engaged gi\iiig diri.'ctions to my partv. mv Q. V'om' dead r<'mained upon the tield ? A. Not the whole of them, .some of tli dead did. i). You knew that one of your men, Newitt, if mai ned on the tield wounded? — Of cour.sf T knew it afterwards hut I did not know it at tlie time. Q. To your knowlcdi,'!' was tlmt man tak-cii rare of? -A. No( to my iiorsoiml kiiow- k' li,'o, tlioiii,'li I hclicvt! li(> svas from wliat I Invird, Q. Did you si^o (he dead after tin' liattlc? A. Xn I did not. Q. l'.(;fo|-(' tiicy were iiilciTi'd ? A. No, Q. Did you sot' them on tlic lifld ? A. 1 .'.au sonu', l.ut tlic dead left u^ion the iiekl I did not see. CriARLKs XoLiv, sworn. cvcaniiiuMl l.v Mr. <'.\siii!.\!N. .\[r. Mari'Ci lu was sworn as mti-rpn-lri Q. You li\o at St. Laurent? -.X. At the pii'.smt tin es. 0. Y OU I1V('( licfoi e 111 M;initol,a?-A. Y Q. Do you k'liow wlicii till' in'ir^oiii'r ciiiiii' int.) tin' country? - \. 'N'cs. (^. Aliout what time was it? -A. I think it wms al)out the lit'^'iniiin;^ of .lulv 1S,S.|, Q. A^ou met iiim se\-erii] times ln'tween di.it time and tin' time of tin* insurrection? A. Y es. Q. i)id the [irisoiu'r speak al)out his jpl.insand if so, what did he say ? A. ..Miout a d me a lioiik that he !iad written in the States. What month after he ai'i'iv'ed. lie showc he showed me in tliat .vas lii'st to ilesti'oy \'])i'j;\: iml 11 nd (' tiiaon. i). .\nd? — A. And also to (h'sti'oy Rome and the Pope (,). AiiN'thiin.; else ? -.\. I le said (liat he had a mission to fultik a d nine mi.ssioii. and as a proof t!iM,t he had a mission, lie showed a letter from the hishop of Montreal eleven years iiaei Q. Did lu^ ^ay h ow lie won carry out Ins iilans tlu'ii th Id carry out his ])lans? A. lie did not say how i le won Id Q. Did he tell you sonH^t!lin^• after? -.\. lit; commenced to talk ahout the tirst of Decemlier |SS j. ahtiut Ins plans Q. What tlitl he tell yi )U A. in the l)eij;inninn' t)f Decemher. 1 SS 1 : he lie^an to siio'.v a (lesii'c to h I'.'e money, he hp to me ahout it iir- 1 th Q. JIow much ditl he say he wanted? — A. Tiie first time he spoke of money T think he said lie ^vauted 10,000 or'l-'i.OOO dollars (2- I'^rom whom wt)ulii he u^'t the mom-y ? -A. The lirst time he spoke ahout it lit; did not know of any particular pkni to get it,at the same time he tohl me that he wanted to lenihitv from the Canadian (Jovernment. lie said that tiie CaTiadiaii (loveru- i3l;uni an md iiient owed him about 100,000 dollars, autl then the ijuestion arose whom the per.son were whom he woultl have to talk to the (Toveriimeut ahout the intlenmity. Some time nftei- that the prisoner tohl me that he had an interview with Father Antln'' and that he had matle pe.iue with tluMjhureh, that since his arriviil in the t;ouiitry he had trietl to separate tlie people from the elergv, that until that tini" he wa.> at open war almost with the elerijv. He said that he went to the chundi with Father Antiiv and in the presence of another priest atitl the lUessed Sacrement he hail made ]ieace, and said that he wouli) never ai;ain do anythiiiy a.L;ainst the cleruy. Father Amlrt'' tohl him he would use his intluenee with the ifovernment to ohtaiii for him •'')."). 000 ilollars. lie saitl that he would he content with .8'5-'">,000 tlien and that he would settle with the sjfovernnient himself for the halanco of 100,000 dollars. That aLfreement took place at Prince Alht>rt. The agreement took place at Saint Laurent and then Father Andrt' went Imek to his mission at Prince Albert. 94 Q. Iii't'orc Dci'iMiilji-r, wi'ii' tlicfc iiici'tiiiirs at uli IJii'l spoke niid at wliu-h you Avert' present .' A. ^'e . W'iiat did lie lelj yon.' A. Ile^aid il' lie ^ot the money he wanted tVoui tin i;o\('i'niiieiu he would y;o wliere\er the (lo\crmiieiit wished to send liini, he told I'^ather Andre, it' Ip' was an emliarrassiuent to tiie (lov eminent liy remaining;' in the X W. he would even !,'() to the prov i iiee ot' ( ^)(iel)ee. I le said a Iso if he u. \(>U A il all "v, \-(uir tender A. V (^>. \'' ■ ,' -\. ()ntlie JDtii .lanuiry, till' lenders were to lie opend on the JTtli. tile prisoiic ae with l)uniont and asi. Wliai were hi-; jilans .' .\. Tlie pri,>oiier itsked me (o resii^n him my eontraet t(^ sliow I he( 1m\i i'inii"iit that the ll;i It' lireed.s were not sat i.->!i''(l heeaiise t he (lovcrnment iiad not u'i\t'ii l^iel what he askeil for. (^). Did 111' speak' of how he w.nild re;ili/i' his plans .' -.\. Not there, I sjioke to him. (). Wliat did vou sav .' .\. 1 told iiim 1 waaild not sacrifice a nvtiiiu'' for 1 mil, iiar- tii'ularh' on account of his plan of '.;oinL;' to tlie I luved States, ! would not .^i\»' five cents, out that if he wiaild make a liarL::ain with lue, with Lepiue and Duinoiit as witiipsses, 1 iiidposed to him certain coudit ions, I proposed tlial he woidd aiiaudon ills plan of i^nini;' to the Slates and raisini;' the peojile, that he sluuild ahandon his idea of ^u'oin.ij; to tiie States and raisin^' an army to i-onie into ("anada. 'i'lie si'coud condition was tliat h(^ would renounce his title as an ameriean citizen. The third eiuidition \»as that Iio woidd aee(^]it u .seat in the House of t'oiuuions as soon as the Xortli-\V(-st wiaild hedi\ided into "ounries (). Weret lose condil ions accejiteil liy the prisoner A. Yes. T le lie.-< t (lav 1 \" I recc'i \ed an answer loatel(\L;ram from Macdouald : the tele-ram said tliat tlu>(iovei'niiient was t;'oini4 lo '.^Tint the rii^lns of the I lalf-hreeds, luit there was not hie.;.; said a 1 tout "id's claim. O. Did vou show the answer to I lie] A. I sll owed the re| il V I \i eel\ I'M lie HIU- (lav, (J. Thai was in the month of .' -A. February. O. In the liei;-iiiniuu' of the month .' — .\. '^'es. Q. What did the prisoner say .' A. lie answered that it was 100 years (hat (Ik »in-- ;i!i'l th.it it was fimeto put a stop to it, thai it had lieeu j;uia,ii Eniilish had licai rolil on Ion,!,' onougli. Q, Was there a moetiiiLC ahout tliat time. al»uit tlieStli or 24tli of Fel A meeting I )ruarv (,). 95 Q. At wliii'li the |iris()iicr s[p()k(' ! -A. Tlicif was ii inootin. on the iMtli Ff'l>niiii\ . wiicii tli(^ pi'isoiici' Wiis jtrcsciit. (). What took ))i:ic(> at that iiici'(iii;4. ilid I lie iirisoncr say aiiyt him,' alioiit his dfpaft- iiij,' for till' I'liitcd States ' A. Yi's. Q. Wliat (lid the |)ris()iii'r ti-ll yelf. (). Was tliat, put in pra 'lier .' -A. ^'es. ("}. Did tlie prison"!' tell ymi he was ifoini; to the Tnited States ? A. F was eliair- uian of the meeting' wheii the (piestion of Kiel s ndin;;' awav was lirotiijlit up. (). In the lie,i;iiiniin;' of .M;r,ili was there a inee; inu' at the lialero settlement .' \. Q. Wei'p yon present when that iiieetiin;' was ori;nni/.i'd l>y him ? -A. Thi; iiiectiii; was not '•xaetly orntini/.ed liy the prisoner, it was origan izei I I)v me : hut the prisoner I'm! ad\antai;e of the meet in ^- to dn what he did. The liijei-t of the mectiiiL;' was to inf<;rni tin people of the answer the ( Jo\ ei-niiient had L:i\('ii 1o the petition they had sent in. O. netwcen the 1st .M ii'cli and ( he meet m ^at 11; Uero was t lu're an interview lie vecn the pri.soiier and h'aflier .\ndr('' .' \. "I'es, on tlie 'Jiid of Mtu'e (). T lose notes \-oii have in vonr hand wi're leade at the time A. V es, alioiit t iH; time. < )n the I'nd of Ma at the .M ission. reh. I here was a n lectin"- lietween Fa-tlicr Andri' aii'l t 1" prisoiM r (.^. At the intevv i<'vv li-lvveeii I'^alher Andre and the [mt abotit t!i(^ formation of hrcods w ;oner. did the prisoner speak Half- a provisional ( Jovcrnineiit ? -.V. .\l)Out sc\-cn or ein'li' ■anic alioiit hetvvecii ten and eleven o cloclc. ere there, the prisonei (). What did he say to Father .Vndn' ? A. The prisoner was with Xapolcon Xault and Damasi? Carriere. Tin; prisoner ap[)earcd to he very excited. lie said to Fatiier ivisimial (Jovernnicnt liefore .VikI le tweK'e o'clock to-nioht. ou must i-'ive me permission to proclaim a p (}. Wliat day was this ?- A. Tlie lliid of .March. Q. WhattluMi? A. The prisoner and Father .Midrc had adispute and Father Andre ut the prisoner out of doors. (^). What took place at (hi" meeting;- at llalcro, what did you see ? — .\. 1 saw aliout sixty men arrive there, all armed, with the prisoner. (,). What day was that ? -.\. Tin; fourth of March, (.). Wen? these men armed ? — .\. Nearly all were ariiun Q. What did you do ? — A. That lueetin,;;- was for the purpose of meeting the JMmlisli IfaU'dtreeds and the Canadians. When I saw the men coiiiim;- with arms. I asked them wduit they wanted, and I said the best tliins^- they could do was to [>ut their arms in a waji'iron and cover them uii so thov would not be seen. (i>. The prisoner sjioke at the meeting; ? — A. Yes. Q. What did he say ? .\. Ke said that the poiicn wanted to arrest him, but he said these are the real p(jlice, i>ointing to the men that wer(> with him. Q. Did you speak at that meeting ? — .\. Yes, 1 spoke at that nujeting and a.s I could not speak in English 1 asked the prisoner to interpret me. Before leaving in till' iiioriiiii^ till iirisDiifr iuid I Ii.kI :\ <'iiiivcrsat imi. He Irid sl«'|il at iiiv pLu'c llril uiiflit. IJi't'orc hM\iii'4 I i'('iii'((.iclii'(| liiii. t'<>r svli;it lir liad doiH' tlic idirlit hi'torc. t^t. till llic .'itll nf .Mai'i'li ? A. Tilt' |iris(Hicr caiuc willl (iaKl'ii'l Dllliinlit to scr liir. lie |iri)i)0!S(>d II jilaii in iiii' that lie liad w I ittcii ii|)(iii a pin-c ot' paper. He said that he liad dci'ided to taUe up arms and to imluci' the peoph' to take up aims, and tile first tliiiii,' \va> toli;,dit for the ylorv of (lod. I'or the honor of lielii,'ioii and tlie salvation of our souls. 'I'lie prisoner .said that he had already nine names upon the j)ai)er, and he asked for my name. I told him lliat his plan was not pertect Init sinee lie wanted to ti^ht for the love of (lod, I would propose a more perfeet plan. .My plan svas tolia\e puldii prayers In tlii' Ca- tholic chaiiel (lurinLC nine da\~:, and to i^o to ronfe.^sioii and eoinmiininn and then do a> our conscieiH-es toM us. (^). Did the jiiisoner adopt that plan ? \. He said that nine days was too loii,!j;. I told liiiii that 1 did not care aliout tho time and that I woidd not siyn his papei'. The prisoner aske(l me to come next day to his house, and I went and there w(! discussed jii"- plans. There were si\ or se\t'ii persons there. y). Did y(Ui propo~,e your plan ? -.\. He projxised his plan and then he [H'opo.sed mine <.). D 1(1 vou ih'CKle to have the nine days ? -A. W'e deci.lcd iipon the nine day: piMVer. that plan was ado[ited almost tnianiinoiisly. no vote was taken uj)on it. <.). Was t! le nine ii.-ivs iira\er eomnieneeii m the ehiireh ? .\. Yes, on the Sundi IV foil o W WW. (^>. What d ly was ili.tt ? -.\. The meelini;' at Itie was on tlie sixth. I think' it was ol; ! lie SIX th .\ii i> When did the nin A. It \'. I-. aniioiiiuerl in the < ■■loNC on the I nth, St .Jo.seiili\ dav. e ilay-; prayer (■niiiinenri> church to riimmei'.ee on the Tuesday followiiii;- and i^ t^. Did the prisoner assist at the piayer? —.V. Xo, he prexcnted people i,'oini;. Q. When did yon linally ditl'er from the prL-^mier in ojiinioii ,' --A ahout L' ■■•o to il le cnuiK'il after that ? ^^A. I) was oro inrht lietore (li(i council urinu' the nii;Iit Q. Was the ]iris(iiiiM' t here ? -A. Yes. Q. What did lie say ?— A. I was orou:;-lit heforc the eoum;il at ten o'clock at niylit, the prisoner made 1 lie a(;cusat ion ai,'aiiist me. (}. What did y(ui do? -A. I defcmied myself. Q. What did you say, in a few words? — A. I pi'oved to the council that the prisoner had made use of the movement to claim the indemnity for liis own jiockot. (\ Y on wore acipii itted? A. Y Q. You were in the church after that?— .\. Th decision of t!ie council. prisoner protested ai^'aiiisr tlu (}. Why did you join the movement ? .\. To save mv lifi Q. You v.ere condemned to death? — A. Yes. 97 Q. W'licii wore ynii cKiKliMiiiifd to death ?— A. Wlicii I was iiiadt' jn'i'soiu'r F liad Ipccii coiidc iiikmI to (Icalli, w lirii I was liroii>,dit to flic clmii'li. (}. On the L'lst of Mairli wcfc you I'lmrgud witli a (.•oiiiiiiissiuii, ilo voii rpcugni/.e tliut (Kx :•)? A. Vi's. i}. will) ^'avo you that? -A. Tlic prisoner himself. Q. For what purposo ? — A. To j(o and meet the dele;,fatt's of niiijor Crozier. I did not Lfive tliein the doenineiit heeause I llnm^lit it was lielter not. (2. Do you remeiiilier the :!<;f|| ,,t' .Maich, the day of the Uatlle at |)uck Lake? -A. Ves Q. Was the pi'isoiu-r there?— A. Yes. After the news came tli:it the police were eoiiiiii',' tlie prisoner started one of thelirst for huek Lal«>oii hdisel.ack. (^). What did he earry ? — .\. I h; had a cross. (J. Some time after, you left ?— A. Yes. (I You went to I'riiice Alhert? -A. Yes. (i. In th(! hei^inninif of J>ecenilier ISSI the prisoner L d he^un speakiny of liis plan aliout taking uj) arms? -A. Yes. I!y Mi{. Lf.MiKrx. (i. You took a very aeti\(' part in the the political niovouient in this country since ()9 ? — A. Yes, ill ()!) I was in Manitoba. Tiie [irisoiiner i.s my cousin, in S4 1 knww the prisoner was li\ing in .Nfontana. I un(h>rstood that he was teaching school there, ho had his wife; and chiluifn there. 1 was aware there was a scheme to hring him into the country. (}. You tiionght the presence of the prisoner would he good for the Half-breeds, for tlio claims they were demanding from the (iov(!rnment. - A. Yes. Q. In that mo\ement the Catholic Clergy took ])art ?- — A. The clergy did not take part in the politi<'al movcMiient but they assisted otherwise. (^. The clergy of all denominations? —,\. Yes, all tluM'(^ligions in the North- West. Q. You were not satistieil with the way things wei'e going, and you thought it necessary to have Riel as a rallying point? — -A. Xot directly, not (juite. Q. You sent to l)ring him ?— A. A committee was nominated and it was decided to .send the resolution to Ottawa. We did not know whether the ])etition was right or whether we had the right to jn-esent it. We were sending to Ottawa and they were to pass Kiel's residence. When the time came wo saw that we could not realize enough money to send tliem tliei-e, and t!ie connnittee changed its decision. |)elogates were sent to Mr. Riel to speak about this petition and they were to invite him into the country if they thought proper. Q. Did the prisoner oJtject to come? — A. T don"t know. Q. Who were the delegates sent by the committee? — -.X. (Jabriel Dumont, Michel -Dumas and James Isbi.ster. The prisimer came with his wife and children and lived with me about four months. Q. A constitutional movement took place iu the Saskatchewan to redress the grievances? — A. Y^'es. Q. The Half-breeds of all religions took part ?--A. \''es. Q. The 'Whites ?— A. Xot directly. tJiey symi)athised very much with us. The Whites did not take direct action in the movement but symi)athised greatly with the Jlalf-breeds. The witness is asked during what lenglit of time the political movement lasted and he 7 IIS II silid it I'oiiihifiu'cd ill .Miircli I SS t unil ('oiiliiinrd iiiilil hliiiiurv nr .Miirdi l>s:», ||i' Kiiiil iliiit the priMtiiiT iil'tcr li;i\ iiii4 li\t'(| iilidiit tlin'i' niinitlis at liis jiIhit went into Iii> own liHisc that In- (liiiiUs was ifivt-ii In liiiii I'V Mr. < >iit'll('tt('. I'lii' wifiir^.s is asked it I Srnlciiilii'r llif liiisdiH'r waiiti'd to ,:,'n, and tlf wiliifss answers tliat lie knows thai ic inisnui'i' siHilxi' i,{ ;;oin,i'', hut he never heheved lie wanted In ^(i. The willies- is linked iihoiit wlial date lie ceased In have friendly relations with the |iiisnner, and he says iilioilt tweiitv days liel'nie he took up iiniis, which was aimir. the ISfli .Miircli. The witness is a>ked it :n llie inmilii nt' (''eiiniary. he lli(ai;;lit Mr. Kiel I'uiild he iiset'iil I n t heir cause, and he says that in that month he (Imiiyht that it" he acted cniistiiut ioiialK- he would lie iiset'ul In their eaiise, lull thai as soon as he heard that the ( invernnieiit h:id ret'ii-^ed the prisniiir the iiideinnity tliat he elainied, that In said he hud im nmre ennlidence in him us a leader in a ennsi itiii iniial way. The witness is askeil a"ain tn sav Imw it is that ii.isinn lust ennlidence in the prisniier he a l; reed willi hi III tn (h'cei\ e the penple and male them hejiev e I hat he wanted tn yn \\ hen he knew lie did lint want tn leave the (Muntry. He says tiiat I lie |irlsniier came and asked him to dn thai liecause ('apt. (lauimn was there and so us tn impress the < In\ (•riinienl. and he says that he thnU'^lil, that at (hat lime they expecied that .Mr. (lai^-imn wmild Neat iIh meeting', iind ii wnuid liriiiy a satisl'aclnry result t'nr .Mr. liiel. The witness is asked. •■ in ntlier words you wanted tn put a t'alse iiii|iressinn nn .Mr. GilLfimii sn as In nlitain a ;;iMnl result I'nr Mr. Kiel." Ami i he w it iiess an>.w crs : " Nn, lint at all. The w itiiess is asked if In' knew tiie prisnner well, and he says yes. The witness is asked after liiat w lielher diiln I I heyst.'irt a political m()\enien I w itii liim ill .\ianitol),i, and he says that in .Maniinha in iSfi'.t and 1 ("^71' he did imi direct ly start any mn\-emeiit with the prismier. And then he is asked if he did not act like he diti in this case, if iie did not start with them aii he saw it was nnt. he withdrew. The witness is asked if suhseipieiitly to the rclielliun and the aliandniimeiit that lie iiriile in lS7t), if he was not appointed .Minister i>^ .\;,M'ieultiire. and he says in IS?.") he was appointed M inister of ALTfieulture. lie is asked if he was unt looked iipmi as one of the lead'Ts nf ihe ilalf-liieeds of the Saskatchewan, and lie says he was Innked upon as one of t he leaders. The witness is askeil if Father Knurmond did nnt w.Mit to stnp Mi'. Kiel finni adini;. and he says it may he so. hut it is not to his kimw lerln-e. The witness says tlieie was a meetimj on the •JIth fehruary. He knows l"'atlier Andre s}ioke there, hut he could not say if he asked the prisoner to remain, and lie says lie may liiuc said so. The witness is asked if ahout that time, in fehruary, there had not hopn a dinner at whicli tlie political situatifui of the Saskatcliewan was discussed ? And li(> says he knows of one on tiie (itli .January. The witness says that at that time he spoke, hut he did nnt sj)eak much. Ho said soiiietiiiiij;' at that dinner, hut he did nnt sjieak much. The witness is asked if iio can swear that at ♦^hat dinner it was not sjioken of the grievances of the Ifalf hreeds and tin refusal of the ( io\ eminent to redress them ? And the witness says that he was present at that dinner, and that to ids knowledt,'e lie does not renieinher that there was any |iolitieal speech at that. The witness says that he had very fre(|uent occasions to meet liiel, comersiny with him since march 18^4 till the moment they disagreed. The witness is asked if the prisnner ever told him that he considered himself a ]iro- phet, and he says yes. The witne.ss is asked if after the meal soniethiin; strange did not happen, if there was not a (piestion of the spirit of (tod hetween the witness and the prisoner? The witness says it was not after a dinner, hut it was one evening they were spending the night to gether at his house, and there was a noise in his howels and the prisoner asked him if he heard that, and the witness says yes, and then the prisoner told him that was his liver, and that he had inspirations which worked through e\ery part of his hody. 'J'he witness is asked if at that moment the prisoner did not write in a book what !»!) Ik- V I < iiispifcd lit", luul tin- witness iiiiHWcrs tluil lie dl , iml wriic in u \nit DM It I. '.I ot pillMT, lie siild lie was llis|>lir(| rilC Wltlli'KH irt llskfll wilcllli T he CMT llraiil llic |i|'iMillt'r >|iniL n|' lijs ililrlhal |M.lirV ill till' ilivisidii (if flit' I'uiiiii r\ . il' lie nIiiuiIiI -^ihii ciI in lii^ i iitri|iri.M'. ami Ih' sa vs \ cs, lie savs tliat iit'lrr in-, iinival ilic prixint r nIkiw cd Imii a liunk wriitm u ii li laiHali. Iilnnd ami the witiicsH said tliat I In- |nisiiiifi' in liiat plan >aii| thai allrr Ial^ill^ I'JinLind and ( 'anada, lit' wiiuld disidi' (.'anada and :;i\i' tlic |)n»\ imc nt' (Jiic'pcc in ilic I'l Uv^iaii.^, ( intiiiiu tii he [lisii, and lln' Nori li Wcsi Tci liuirics lie di\id('d ii.tn iljUrrciit |mU> lu'twcin tiic an I 111' .lew - w I 'ic In ha \ I l%iii'n|ii'an nations. Ilo says hf dm-s nut rcnii ndin ilimi ah. I apart. The wit iit'ss says that he thinks he also spoke of liie 1 1 iinuiiiians and l!a\arians. lie -.ays that In; tli(Hi;i'lit tiie wlmle woiid shoiil ' h.ive a pieie nt' tiie cake, that I'riissia was ! I Iri\.' (Jinelie,'. The witness says that since I SSI there wa'. a eniiniiit ler whi. h way ealh'd a enuneil, '["lie witness says he was nnenf tiic nieiidiels nt t lial cnliilnit tee (M eniineil. lie was nidy nne nrdinary nieniliei', iint president. .Mr. .\ndre\\ Spei was I'residi ii, lie w IS .\\i l'ai,:.diNh I lalt' lireeil ; lie .>aid the enuneil eniideniiien 'liiii in death and lilierati d him at'ler and oll'i'i'ed liini a [ilaee in I he eniineil 'h" witness is asked it' he retiiNed iliat pnsit inn. iind he says he did imt rel'iise ii ami I hat he .1 ''I'liled it. lillt it NSasonly t(i sa\e his lite Ueeaiise lie ji.'id been enndenined In ilealli. Tilt- wilne-,.s is asked it lie was prevent ai ilie mertini;' al I'rinee .Mia it. and he ^ay.^ ne was not tiii'i'e. he was outside, lie did not speak there. Tiie w it iiess Miys tliat lict'iae liie hatHe nt" | liiek Like he saw I'icl '.^niiii.' iihout wiili .1 ('nieilix almui a tnnt and lialt loni,'. that tile ('I'lniiix liad I'eeii taken nut nt' tiie next eiuinh, near hy. The witness is iske I it it ]■; not ti'iie ihal when liieie was a ipiestinii in the Saskaii'iiewan nt' tlie pnliec, he ,'l I li'ael "!• n t til • iirisniier (.'liani'ed eoniiiietelv. and tiial he iHranie \ erv exeiti ind evei 1 uie'onti nllaMe, and the witness siiys tiiat whenever the w nrd police was prnnounced \erv ex"ite I. The witness is a.- it at the tune it was said in the diNtriet that ."iDO p dice wnilld lie sent In aiiswel' tiie petilinii nt' the I lalt' lu'eeds. his charai ter (lid not liecnme Very I'xcitalile, and lie says that at'lei' that lie did not see the prlsniier. lait hetore tliat. whenever the word police was pronounced he l.'o( Ncry e.\eited. lie says that what he said Iiere '^as ali'iiit the iiinnth ot' .laiiiiarv or e\en I' elpriiarv. and al.iaii that 1 11 ( aipt'iiii < iaifiinn passed in tiie ('oiint ry and stopped in tiie i>risoiier's iioiise to im|i:ire w iiat was the road of Si. Laurent, ami there was only the prisoner's wife and .Mi', hiimnut in the ]ioii-,e, and when the prisoner eaiiie hack and was informed tiiat .\i i'. ( oinnnn had lieen tiiere, lie ynt \cry iiuieli exciteil, and the woman could nfit explain il, what (Iai;noii had stopped therefor, ;iiid lie^^ot \'ery e.veittsd, and the population generally n'ot excited too. Mo does not know whciln'r those |ioli(.'enieu liad their uniforms 011 or not. lie says he cannot say at what date that was that Claynon passed there, ^ut he says he lieaid of the "lOO police coming to the country only after arni.s wcri' taken uii. he w itiK'ss snvs tliiit one nf his sous was arrested after the li.iilit of liatoche and that he was hroujjht here to tin; IVirraeks and was released within the last few davs. The witness is asked if he had any intlufiice. am I he says he does not know what iiilliienee he could exercise, he savs that at ly rate lie has lieeii put at Idierty since. I he w itiiess caim' to l\i'i;'iiia to ^inc his e\i- 'uee in this case. Examiuatiou of Mr. ('iiAi!f.i;s Noiiix (Miitiniied throin^di the intei'iireter. The witne.ss is asked if the council which he sjioke of a while a;;() and which was presided o\or liy ^Ir. .Vndrew Speiice, was the same as that w iiich condemned him to death, and lie says no. Mr. .TUSTICK Ricii.viiDsoN. That is, the old council was not the council that t-oudemued him to deatii. Witiie.ss savs that tlie Council that condenmed him to death was not that which was CO ailed ex ov id. Witness is asked if prisoner had separated from the clor^'y. and ho says conipletcdy. Ife savs the Kalf-hreeds are a people, wdio need reli<,don. Relii,don has a, threat inthieiice 011 their mind. The witness is asked if without religion the jirisoner could have succeeded in 100 ItrinuiiiLj tilt' I lull' Im'cimIs wit li liim, a, id (lie witiitvss answers iio. It wmild iic\ cr lia\ c siici'('('(I(m1. Il'llii' prisiiui'i' liad iiol iiiadc hiiiisclt' appfai' us a j)i-o))lu't, lir would iicNcr liiM' siu'i'i'i'dt'd ill l>riiii,'iiiL;' tlic Halt' luri-ds with liiiii. I')V .Mr. Li'iiiiiMix, ri'crosscxaininat inii. Tiic wiiiii'ss is asked it' the prisuiier did not lose a. ni'<'at deal of his iiilhienee in t'l.U. s\ IV liv the t'a.et- that he lost the inlliienei> o|' (he ('lery;y, and he says that at tin? tniie he i;, lined inllnenee i»y working;' a;j;a,inst t In^ Clei'Lfy and liy niakinL' iuiiiseit' out as a. iiiMphel. The witness is asked it' he iiiean.s that the people did not have eontidenee in I iieii- ( 'ler_;\, and h.'sa'sno, hiii he says they wer(> ij;norant and Iw was lakinij; ad\aii t i-e ot i,heir ij^eoninee and their .sinn)liei(y. iioM AS S \M)i',i!so\ sworn, examined l>v Mr. Koliinson Here is a p iper wjiieii lias not heen read yet and which was |iro\e(I hy the witin .)ae'.-.>ii. It isdalc'/i l:">th .Mav, ISS.'i. It is addressed to ( I(>iuMa! Middleton. Major (uMier.'l Kn-deriek .Middlelon: (i,'iiei-al I lir.c re/eivcd only t>d:iy yours of the l.'WIi, hut our Connei! linve di;p,'iy .hiekson, no ID. Mr. lloiu.NsoN. — O. 1 lielieve vou are a farmer li\ iiii,' at. ( i arret River settlement 7 — A. Yes. (J. Do yi>u reiniMiilter the :lO{\i of .Mareh last, do you remeii.lpei' I hat ilay '.' A. I do ;i ' CAietly rememlier tliat datf. ;J Well, do you I'emenilier (lordon eomiiiL;' to you '.' A. Yes. (^. MiDut wli'Mi was that. '.' — A. I think it was ahout the •_'()( h. 1 don't (>\aetlv 1, 1 " rt, the date. (). Was it at your house '.' -A. \l my father's house. (V What did lie d(^sire you todo^— A. To j,'o with him, (u eonduet liiui to moot Colonel lr\ine. O. lie wivhed vou to i;-o with him, to conduct him to nuM't colonel Irvine? A. : es. (^. Where was colon(>I liwiiie rei)resented to 1k> coming' from ? A. ('oiniin;' from Qu'Appelle. (V .\nd w h;U were you to do, to show .Mr. (lordon the way ? A. lie did not know the w IV and rcipiested me to \;\kr him t!iroUL;'h the woods to avoid the ri'hels. (}. How f:ir well' Villi taken .' A. To Moodoo. avv.iv as far as I jiossililv could to secure hi^. sif.'iy and I lie -afety of the <|espatches he carried. (). He was carry ill'.;' di';]);ilclies, .[\\i\ he v\ islied you to lai^i' hiin lliroiiMh (he woods to ,i\ oid 1 111' ri'licls .' .\. ^'es. ( ). How far did ,1)11 e-i( w I ill liini .' A. To i l( came Q. How far Is lln.Mlou.' A. AIhmm lift v iiiilrs, it isl.Hw.vn liat,,..],,- ;ni.! llmnKoKlt, (.). Wii.'ii (li.l yon o-,.* t|„Mv ' A. AKout imni, .,{ I hr fnll.uviM- day. (,). What ,li,I vou 11,1,1 Nvh, Ml v-n u-,,1 thnv.' A. 1 ln„,i.l Air. W ,H.,|rn,k n 1„. « as llxMi in ••l.ar-.M.t I I(m.,1(.,. s(al ion.aiul anotlin' man vvli,,sr nam,' I .hni'l kii.uv ul„, |,a,| l,,^! comi' there with a lead nt' eats. (J. Wliat d,.y.,u uieiii l,ya stalh.n. is i! a mail .tatien .' A. A ,i,a il sin,,,,!,,., pia.^e. Miere sv.Mv also tw,, ,.tl,er in. a: w ii li sle|.. hs loa.led nitli ll,,ur a ii,l -ends ter ("irite,, I tlimk they told UK'. (,>. Ker wlh.ia .' .\. I think for the llndsen Hay Co I, til I am net pesitix... , ,, (). Wile were il ,en,' A. Mr. !sl,isiei-aiid aneliier I think nhoxvasealle,l('amn. iiell. I hay.' seen the man often i.elere, and I think that is his name. (,>. Wiiat ha|.jHaied while \ en were there .' A. On t o>. ards I Ih' e\ eiiiie. n\ Idle I \vas out^waslun,-alM,ui the store, I sa w t u o Half l.r.a'ds as I snppu.se. eemin.. alom. i,, inmi.eis :in.l I stepped msule and (old W..od.au.k the ivhels w(>re eomin-fer lis. ;ni.| went out a-aiti and (iiii.hed my washing- and then they dro\,- up to the door, dr.ne iipalon-the r ami foitml ahotit twenty or I w.-iity li\ .• arm.Ml ukmi, and i.'turiad and linished my supper. g. What did you d.) n.'\( I A. There was one stepp,.,l up and .said Im h;ul a left. a- t.ir Wo.)di-o.-k. I hail. I.hI him the l.'t t.a-. .m a small slipof pap.a-, and li(. n^id it, he hand. ..I i(. to me to rea.l and I think it stat.'d (lia(, : \\r have l...eii (..Id iliat. v.. it are -i.inu (.> fur- nish the p.iiiee now coiuiii-- up with hay and .)a(s, if y.,u d.. \>.. w ill '.-.uisid.a'vou"! rehel. Sii;ned ( i'ariio(. g. W.dl wh.at els., was. said .u' .Ion.. ,' A. I sal, I tli,.y ha.ln't .ni-ht t.i .•..iisid,.)- him a rehel at all, (lia( h.. was simply p.-rtoriuinn his duty ami if .Mr. irsin,. ha. I .u-,lers I.) i^,., hav an.l ..als th..r... h,. w.mld .•ertainly ha\.. (.. -iv.- th.'ui t.. him ami that I did not tlii'ik (lii'y shoiihl .■oiisi.l.a- him a reh..| on sm'h -r.iuiuls ..r an ..|i!.my to them, with (h.. id..,i proliiihly of them -vt t in-- .u- l..a\in;j; tli..|ii tlieiv. 'i'h.w s.iid anyuav t h..v had to (ak.>him prisoner , and tak.. hi-u t.) I'.at.i.h.., and 1 sp,.ki. up in his .let".. n.'.. aiid tli,>\ said tli.'v Wi.f.. t;'oin'4' to (ake me also. ^». I>i.l (li..y t.ike y,.ii t.i.i ? .\. "('es. (). Now was (h..r.' aM r. Ishisti'i- t lier,^ i^ .\. ^'es. »>>. .\lid ihey t,(ok \,iu li.ilh to r..ato,.lu' ? \. \ vs. y. When ,li,l y..u uvt th..|v ? A. I simuld s,i\ ali.nit II or I •_' ..•.•lo..k, I am not posit i\... Q. How many w.. lit with y..ii ? A. I t liiiik th.>re weiv eif her s.>veii or ..i-lit in mv deiuli an.l ahotit the s.im.' in NVoodeock's. . A nil. ..I ? A. N'es. . What did ili..y .!.> (o .Mr. jsliister ? ^,\. 1 d.m'l know, lie v.as lef( tin. re when I .•anie a\\a\' y took iiis freight .ir ii.il ? .V. I in r>a(i)elie, and I think tlu.v did not, Imt I am not aw liim iH'xt day p.isit i\ (. 102 Q. You got to Batoche about twelve I tliink ? — A. I did, about twelve. Q. And what happened tliere ? — A. I was taken out of the sleigh and taken into the cluu'ch. Q. Whom did you see there ? — A. Well I was not aL'(juainted with v of them. 1 knew one was Gabriel Duniont, I had seen him liefore and knew him l)y sight. Q. How many did you see ? — A. I should say about ."iOO ai-ound the rluirch and in the ciiurch that night. Q. That was the 21st ?— A. I tliink it was the I'lst. Q. Were they armed ? — .\. Nearly all that 1 saw were armed. Q. Were they all Half-breods or anj' of them Indians? — A. Some Indians and some Jfalf-lireeds. It was after night and I could not dist'ngnisli tliem. Q. How long did they keep you ? — A. Duniont got up and made a speech of some length, I should say it took him iibout an hour, and aftei'wards an [ndian got up and made a speech that lasted aljout half an hour, and tiien there wtn-e a good deal of talking, and they took us away to the council house. Q. Near the church ? — A. A little up the road tVom the cluirch Q. What happened wlien you got there ? -A. There w(n-e several men around the lower story, some eating and some talking and so on, and they kept me there till Mr. Riel came. Q. And what did he say or do ? — A. 1 was then conducted upstairs as I suppose into the council room. .Mr. Riel asked me what I — — Q. Were they sitting as a Council around a table ? — -A. I don't know, they were sitting ai'ound the tabl(> and around the house in all shapes possible. Q. Was any liody acting as Secretary ? — .\. Yes, one Avlioin I afterwards knew as (larnot was acting as Secretary. Mr. R'el asked me wliat I was about, and T told him 1 did not know what he meant. He sa; 'what are you about" and I says "I don't know what you brought me here for." Says he, "where do you come from" L said I come from Garrot river. He says "I consider you my enemy," and 1 says '•all-right." Q. Well, what more? — .^. He asked ]\Lr. Woodcock some (]uestions, I am not positi\'e wliat the ijuestions were, that is all that was said to him till morning. Q. What took place in the morning ? — A. In ilie morninir I requested an interview with Air. Riel and he gave uv one. I asked him what. 1 was brought there for, wiiat he had against me, and he said he considered me an enemy, and I asked him why. And he said he considered all the jteople at Garrot river as his enemies, and I told him I did not know any person there who wer • against him in tlie movemeiil Ic-fore he took up .arms, and when T left there they did not know he had takiMi up ai'iiis and T said as far as I was concerned, I was not his enemy although I would not taki! up arms to defend him, and 1 thcught my best plan was to make some way to get out of there if I ]>ossibly could, for I was in a bad bo.x. 1 was then taken to a house that 1 was told afterwards was Garnet's, where 1 found other prisoners. Q. And what took place then ? — A. I don't just recollect everytliing that took place there was so much. Q. Well, what conversation had you svith the ])risoner ? -A. Witli Riel ? Q. Yes. — A. He came and asked me down that foi'enoon,] think itwas in the forenoon, and he wanted me to sjicnik to him. He askefl if I knew tlu'ic was any police coming and I told him I thouglit there was, but I was not sui'e, and he said he had l)een told there were oOO coming, and he asked me if T thought it was tru(\ and I told him I gu(;ssed it was, that I thought there was 500 coining, he asked if I thought there was. I forget lO.'i now liow ho rnention(Ml it, any way a deputation to settle his grievances was coming with them and 1 told him 1 thought they were coming, something to that I'ftect, that they were coming to try to settle this i'(!l)ellion. n. A deputation was coming to try and settle this rebellion? A. Yes. il You mean the 500 policemen were the deputation ?— A. No, 1 meant that there were other parties with the 500 policemen. Q. Now, did he talk to you about his grievances and what they were, or anything else? — A. Not at the time. Q. Well wlien did he, if at any time ?— A. He di, and coming l)ack from it. Q. Did you see him artually p)ing out to the liattle? — .V. Y"es, 1 saw him going out of the yard towaids where the pnlice were coming. Q. With others? -.\. Witii aliout Ix'tween twenty and thirty men. I,). And you saw him coming back from it .' A. Yes. (^. Well, wlicn he came liack diil you hear him say anything ? — A. I heard him speaking but 1 could not understanak to you at all? — .\. He did, after speaking to them he came upstairs and brought up Charles Newitt, the wounded man. Q. What did he say about him ". — ^A. lie told us it wasalxnit the best thing he could do with a wounded man, that he tliouglit we would take better care of him than his own men would, and T thanked him for bringing him up to us, and he then went down stairs. Q. Did he tell vou anvthing aliout the battle? — A. Y'es, he did. After he came back 104 I asked him how iiiany ^vel•^• killed, luul he said nine and he thou^'ht there were more, Imt. nine were left on tiie field, he thou,<;ht a <;oorl inaiiy A\eiit away on the slei<,di. Q. Dill lie tell you anytliinL;- else, al)out the battle ? — A. I asked him who tired first and he said the poliu", and he said at'tei'wards he then gave orders to his men to tire, three distinct orders. Q. Did he say how he ;,'avethe orders? — A. " In the name of the Fatlier Almi<,dity 1 command you to tire," was tiie lirst time. I think those are as near the words as I can repeat, them, i think he said the second time, "in the name of Oui- Saviour who redeemed us I command you to fire," and the third time " in the name of the B'ather, Son and Holy ({host [ conuiiand you to fire." Q. Then how long did yi)U I'emain at Duck Lake ? — A. Till next day. Q. And wht're were you taken then? — A. I asked Air. Kiel what ho was going to do with the dead bodies the day of the battle, and he told me that he did not know, that thev would consider. I said he ought to send some word to major Crozier, and let him know and allow him to come and take away the bodies, and he said that he would ^onsider the matter and see his council. Afterwards he came back up there and 1 askcvd him M-hat he was going to do and he said they were afraid to send one of the men for fear Alajor Crozier would keep him prisoner. I told him if lie would send me I would come back and give myscdf up again as a prisoner, and he said he would consider it and lie after- wards concluded to send one of tlie men and then finally he came himself and told me he would send me. Q. Did he give you any letter to take ?— A. Yes. Q. Is that the letter he gave you (showing witness a paper) 1 — A. Well, I could not say for I never saw the letter only while he was writing it, so that I could not actually give any evidence on the letter, I could not swear to it. Q. You could not identify the letter or swear to the letter 1 - No, I did not see it afterwards. Q. Did you give the letter 1 — A. I did. Q. To whom?— A. To Major Crozier. Q. And what happened then 1 — A. The next that happened I wasdetained by the police then and was not allowed to go back as I had [)romiserl to do to Mr. Riel. Q. Did you assist in l)i'inging the dead from the field ? — A. Yes. Q. Well, did Riel ask you any (juestion after couiing back from Duck Lake at all 1 — A. Yes, he asked me about the ])oliee. He had recjuested while going with his message to tell the people, the volunteers, that he did not wish to light them, that he wished them to remain neutral and afterwards help him to (establish a government, and when T went back to L)uck Lake I told him I had told the [leople this, which was a lie. I told him also that I was taken ])rison(n' by Major Crozier, and put into the cells, which was true, and that I was afterwai'ds taken to Prince Albert by Major Crozier, that the volunteers there kicked because I was taken prisoner, that ]\Iajor Crozier was afraid to stay and left Carlton and went to Prince Albert. That was lies also. Q. That is the information you ga^■e Mr. Riel 1 — A. That I gave ]\Ir Riel. Q. And then what happened to you? — A. P>efore giving him this information, he Tsked me aliout them and I told him that I had refused to tell anything about them without he told me whether I was to go l)ack to the prisoner-s, and whether I woidd be allowed to go at large, go free, and he said I would be allowed to go free, so then I spun liim a little yarn. Q. Who wrote this letter you took to Major Crozier ? — A. I could not say positively, 10.-) Mr. Riol was writiiij;' so was Mr. ( Jariiot and they had a great time getting up tlic letter, so I don't know which I could say. Q. Wliat do you mean Ijy ii groat tinic? -A. They wrote so many of them and destroyed them. Q. Tlitiy wrote more than one liefore they got one to suit them ? — -A. Yes. Q. And liiially tliey Huished one and gave it to you? — A. Yes. By Mr. (ireenshields. Q. At the time you were taken prisoner did Riel take any part in it ? — A. No, I did not see him. Q. It was only after you l)een iiad taken prisoner tliat you saw Iiini t — A. Yes. Q. Now, at the time you spoke to him u -arding the formation of a government, did he give you any idea of wliat kind of a government lie proposed forming ? — -xV. Yes, he v,-as going to divide the country into seven parts, one part was to lie for the Canadians, or white settlers, one seventh, another seventh for the Indians, another seventh for the Half-breeds, and he named over what he was going to do with the rest, I don't recol- lect the names of the people. Q. Did he tell you he was going to give over other sevenths to other nationalities, the Poles, Hungarians and Bavarians and Jews ? — ^A. He did not. Q. Did you hear him say anything about giving a portion of it to the Germans ? — A- No, not to my knowledge. He named over, I think it was three-sevenths of it was to remain to support the Government. Q. That was for himself, I suppose ? — A. Yes, I suppose, for the Government he was about to establish. Q. Now, that was aliout the extent of the conversation with him regai'ding this Government 1 — A. Yes, that was about the extent of it. Q. lie did not say anything al)0ut expecting assistance from foreign powers in his undertaking ? — A. No, he did not. Q. Did he talk to you anything about religion ?— A. Yes. Q. What did he tell you about that ? — A. He told me he had cut himself loose from Rome altogether, and would have nothing more to do with the Pope, that they were not going to pay taxes to Rome. He said if they still kept on with Rome they couid not agree with the Canadian and white people who came there to live, because their Govern- ment would have to keep allProtestants out of the country, if they kept on with Rome. Q. That is, if the Riel Government kept on with Rome they would liave to keep all Protestants out of tin; country ? — A. Yes. Q. And abandoning Rome they would be able to allow Protestants to come into the country ? — -A. Yes, that is what I understood from him. Q. Well, did he mention anything to you of who was to succeed the Pope ? — A. He did not. Q. Did he tell you he was going to play Pope for the North-West Territories ? — A. He did not. Q. Well, did he explain to you any of the principles of the religion that ho was founding?— A. No, by the way "he spoke to me, the religion was just the same, any more than he had cut himself from the Pope. lOG KoHEU'i' Jkfkkkson sworn, examined by Mr. Casgniin. Q. In tlie oourse of this last Spring, I Ijelieve you were in Pounclniaker's reserve, were you not ? — A. I was. Q. In his camp.'' — A. In his camp. Q. About what montli ? — A, The end of March and April and May, I don't believe it was tlH^ wliole of ^Nlay though. Q. Last?— A. Yes. Q. Who is Poundmaker ':- -A. He is one of tlie chic^fs of the Cree tribe. i^. Had he a baud of Indians with him ?— A. He had a band of Indians. Q. A large l)and ? — A. Yes, he had a large band. Q. Do you recognize this letter (No. 18), and if so, where did you see it? — A. Well, I have seen it twice. Q. Wliere did you see it the first time ? — A. I saw it the first time in the camp, and the second time it was m the camp too. Q. Vou saw it twice in the camp ? — A. Twice in the camp, yes, once after the capitulation and the other before. Q. Whose hands was it in the first time you saw it ? — A. It was in the hands of Poundmaker. Q. And the second time ? — A. The second time it was in the hands of Pound- maker's wife. Q. How did it get there, into the camp, in Poundmaker's hands ? — A. It was brought in liy Dt'lorme and Chic-i-cum. Q. What was his Christian name, do you remember ? — A. I could not say. Q. He was a Half-ljreed ? — A. He was a Half-breed, yes. Q. From where? — A. From Duck Lake. Q. Chic-i-cuni is an Indian, is he not? — A. Yes. Q. Do you remember the battle of Cut Knife ? — A. Yes. Q. Was this before or after the battle of Cut Knife ? — A, It was before considerably. Q. Was it after the battle of Duck Lake ? — A. Yes, it was after the battle of Di'.ck Lake. ii. When was the ijattle of Cut Knife fought? — A. I could not say the date. Q. About what time? — ^A. About the beginning of May. Examined by Mr. Greensiuklds. Q. Was Poundmaker reading this letter at the time that you saw it in his hands ?— A No, h(> was not. Q. Do you know whether he can read or not ' — A. I do. Q. Does he read English 1 — A. No. Q. Does he read French ? — A. No, nor French, he does not read at all. Q. What was he doing with the letter when you saw it in his hands ? — A. The letter was l)rought to him. Q. Handed to him ?— A. Yes. Q. In your presence ? — A. No. 107 Q. Did you see it 1)i-ouglit to him ? -A. Xc», [ could not say that I saw it l.rou'dit to him. " Q_. Well, how do you know that the letter was brought to him?— A. Well, every one said it was ln-ought to him. Q. But you don't know anything ahout it yourself ?— A. I beg your pardon, I know it was brought to liiin, he said it was brought to him. Q. Who said so ? — A. Poundmaker. Q. But you don't know of your personal knowledge it was brought to him ? A. No, I did not see it brought to him. Q. What was he doing with it when you saw it in liis hands, was he looking at it as a matter of curiosity, or what?— A. No, T believe he was goijig to put it away." Q. Did he know what it was ?— A. Yes, he knew what it was. Q. He knew it was a letter, eh ?—- A. lie knew it was a letter. Q. Did he ask you to read it for him 1 — A. No, he did not. <^. Do you know yourself, now, where he got that letter, how he got it, of your own personal knowledge, not what he told you or anybody alse told you, but of your own personal knowledge? — A. No, I don't. Q. You don't know anything al)out it, do you ? — A. No. Q. You don't even know whether it was intended for Poundmaker or not, do you ? — A. Not of my own personal knowledge. Re-examined by Mr, CASfJUAiN. Q. Was this letter read to Poundmakei- ? — A. It was. Q. By whom ? — A. By the man that brought it. Q. Was it interpreted to him ? —A. it was interpreted to him. By Mr. Greknsiiiklds. Q. How do you know it was read to him ? -A. I heard them read it. Q. Where were you when it was read ?— A. 1 was there wiien he Q. Do you understand French ? — A. I don't understand very much of it. tj. Did you have the letter in your hands ? — A. I did, yes. Q. Was it read in English to Poundi.iaker or in French, or how, or Geripan, or what ? — A. It was translated for him I belie\e, it was read in French first, I am not certain about it though. Q. How do you know it was translated to him ? — A. Well, I heard what was called a translation of it. Q. What were you doing about that time ? — A. I was listening. Q. Now, how do you know it was translated if you never read the letter ? — A. I never said I never read the letter. Q. Well, did you read it ? — A. I did read it. Q. Befoi'e or after it was translated ? — A. After this. Q. After it was translated ? — A. After it was translated. Q. Let us hear you read it now and tell us Mdiat is in it ? — A. But I have heard your translation here I OS Q. Yoa said you luMnl that translated, hccau.sc you uiukTsiood it, now let us lii'iit wli it that Icttur moans, not what anylmdy told you or what you heard, l>ut we want u> know what your knowlt'di^c of the contents of tliat It'ttcr is ?— A. (rcadini,' tli(> letter us follows ;)....' since we wrote to you, iniportant events have occurred, the llalf-hreeds and Sava.<,'es and Indians of Kort liattleford and vicinity, since we wrote to you important events have occurred, the Police t'ame to attack and we encountered them. (!od has jriven us victory ; liO IIalf-l)r(>e(ls and o(!rees have sust;iined the l)attle aj^ainst 1 "JO nn ii, after thirty-tivt* or forty minutes of Hre the enemies took tliijht. JMess (lod .... Q. Now, did vou read the letter hefore it was translated in languaj^o to Pound maker ?— A. No, I read it aftttrwards. O. And he read it in Krencli first of all to Poundmaker and then afterwards in En'.,dish ? —A. Then afterwards in Cree. I think he read it in French tirst, but 1 am not sure. .Mn. JU.STICE RlClIAKDSON'. Q. Do you understand Cree ? — A. Oil, yes. Mi{. lloHivsov — I think, your hfonor, that that will he the last witness for the Crown. 1 am not (juite sure till to-morrow, and, of course we will adjourn now, it beinj; G o'clock. Coui-t here adjourned till 10 A. ]M. to-morrow. F.vriiKK .\li:.\is Andkk, sworn, examined by Mr. Lkmiki-.v. ]\Ir. F. R. .Marceau beint; interpreter, Q. What is your name in religion ?— A. .Alexis .\ndre, Oblat. I. would prefer to speak in French. I understand the Eni,dish very well, but in speaking it, it is (juite a ditierent matter. Q. Y'ou are the Superior of the Obhits in the district of . . . . ? — A. Carlton. Q. For how long 1 — A. Since seven years. Q. Since how long have you been livimg in the country 1 — A. I lived in the country since 18G."), in the Saskatchewf.ii. Q. Do you know the population and the habits of the people? — A. For twenty-five years I have been continually with the Malf-breeds of the Saskatchewan above and below, I was with the same population in Dakota for four years. Q. You have b(M3n with Half-bi'eeds, Catholics ami Protestants 1 — A. They were mi.Ked up in the colony, and I knew a great many both of the Catholic and Protestant Half-breeds, and had a ^reat mmy friends among the Protestants. Q. Do you remember 'S-l^ and ''^•■). Do you remember the events of those years?— A. Yes very well. Q. Do you renieinlier the circumstances under which the prisoner came into the Saskatchewan counti-y in iS4 ? — A. Y'es, I remend)er very well. Q. At that time there was an agitation in the Saskatchewan aV)Out certain rights the Ilalf-broeds claimed they had against the Federal government ? — .\. Yes, al)Out three months before there was .an agitation among the English and French Ifolf-breeds. Q. State what were the claims of the Half-V)reeds towards the Federal (Tovernment ? — .\. .\t tirst I did not know what was the cause of the agitation in the country. Q. Afterwards ?— A. After, we knew from Half-breeds that they were going to see Kiel. Q. .\nd finally Kiel came into the country? — A. Yes. Q. In svhat month? — A. .\bout the 1st July 84. soner in t 109 Q. Duriii-j; the lifHt nioiitlis tliat !»> was in tlii? country was tlioni a constitutional (11,'itatioii Koiu;,' on ? -A. Yes tlicro were Mifotin<,'s held anionyst tins French and l';n,i,di.sli llalf-lireecls and at Princo AHicrt there was a nuM'tin;; at which [ was present niyseit'. Q. Do you know that n'solutions were i)ass('d and sent to the federal authorities 1 — \. I did not know that resolutions were passed at tlie nieetiii<^. Q. Did you know of petitions and recpiisilions liciiii; sent to the federal (Joverninent ? — A. At that time I did not know of any, only of the meetings and tin* speeches. (}. At the assembly you were at, did you take part?— A. No, I was there as a spec- tator and did not speak. Q. You did not take any part ? — .\. No, I was only there as a spectator. Q. Did you yourself communicate with the Dominion Goverumeiit '? — A. At what time 1 Q. T mean in r(\^ard to the rights aiul claims of the II:ilf-l)r(>eds ? — A. Y'es, T oom- Hjunicated. Q. At what time 1 — ^A. i am not sun; at what time, in 1S82, I did communicate. t^. Since that have you communicated ? — A. Not directly. Q. i£ow did you communicate ?— A. L cinnmunicated directly in regard to Riel. Q. Can you tell me in what ininniu- you communicated'? — ^. J communicated in D:^ceinber, when Iliel said he wanted to i,'() out of the country because of the agitation that was existing in the country. Q. Did you communicate after that ? — .\. No, I communicated after the rebellion. Q. With whom ? -A. The Minister of Public Works. Q. Sir Hector Langeviu '! -A. Yes, asking help for tliose who were in distress. Q. What were the claims of the Half-breeds? — A. Since when, you must distinguish. Q. From 1884 till the time of the rebellion ? — A. Since the arrival of the pri- soner in the country ? Q. Yes ? — ..\. It would bo difficult to tell that, they changed from time to time since the arri'^al of the prisoner. Q. Before his arrival ?— .\. They d(nnanded patents for their land, demanded front- age on the river and the abolition of the ta.xes on wood, and the rights for those wlio did not have scrip in Manitoba. (}. In what way did the Half-breeds put forth their rights itefore the arrival of the prisoner ? — A. By public meetings at which I assisted several times myself. Q. Did you take part yourself ? — A. Yes, at all those meetings. Q. Were comnumications made with th? Dominio Government, resolutions and ]ictitions ? — A, I remember three or four times that there was. Q. Did you get any answer to your communications ? — A. I think we received an answer once, perhaps we received an answer once. Q. Was the answer favourable ?— A. No, it was an evasive answer saying they would take the question into consideration. Q. That was the only answer to a number of communications ? — A. Yes, I know of another comniunication made by Monseigneur Grandin to the same et^ect. Q. Did ho get a favourable response ? — A. No, I don't know of any. Q. Do you know if there was any answer sent to Chai'les Nolin, in regard to a IK) petition sent tn tli<' (Jovi'innieiit ? A. It wiis in regurd to tlioht- juuetin^'.s, I was making,' rt't'iTcnci', I only know as to one iuiswcr. (,^, Kiniillv litter tliese petitions and resolutions had i n adopted at the pulilic nieetini's and sont to tlie (!o\erniiient, was there a chanjL^e in the state of tliinLfs thai existed then ? — A. The silence ot' the ( lo\ eminent produeed yreat dissatisiaetion in tin; minds of the people. {). To dav are the people in a better [losition than they were hefore in regard to the ri"hts tliev elaini ? A. They have not yet reeeivi'd the jiatents for their lands on tlie South Saskalrhewan, M It. ()si,i;k. -I must olijeet to this eiass of (piestions la-inji,' introduced. My learned friends have opened a case nf treason just itied only l»y the insanity of the pi'isoner, ami thev are now seekiui,' to justify armed reliellion for the redress of their i,'rievanees. These two defences are iiii-onsistent, one is no justitication a( all. We are willing' to allow ail iiossihle latitude lait they have i^one as tor as \ feel they should i,'o. Wa have allowed them to descrilie documents which they have not produ<'e(l, and answers in wi'itinj,' so that thev mi;;ht not lie emWarrasscd and that the outline of t he position mi^jht he fairly ■dven to the jury, Init it is not evidence, and if my learned friend is ),'oing into it, in (letail, I think it is oltiectionaMe. Ifis lloNoii .Mi{. .li;sri('K Kiciiaudson. — Supposing they are going to produce these writings. Ml!. < )si,i:!{. — They coulil not he e\ idence. the would not he evidence in justiti- cation. That is admitted. It cannot lie )iossilile for my learned friend to open the case on one defenc(> and go to the jury indirectly upon anothiM'. Of course it is not i-eallv any flefence in law and should not he gone into with any greater pai'ticularity. [f this ia given in evich'uce we will have to answer it in many particulars, and then tliere would he the i[ue-;tii)n of just ifyiiig the policy of the (iovernnient. Ills iroNoH.Mii. .luHTiCK Ru'iiAiiKsoN. — It would he trying the Government. M u. t)si.K.K. — It is as it were a countei- claim against the (Jovernment, and that is not ojien to any person on a trial for high treason. We have no desire to unduly limii mv learned friend, l)Ut 1 cannot con.sent to try such an issue as that here. -Ml!. Lkmiki'x. — I do not want (o justify the rebellion, I want to show the state of things in the country so as to show that the ]irisoner was justified in coming into the country and to show the cii'cumstances under which he came. Ills lloNOii Mh. Juhtick Richaudsox. — Ifaxe you not done that already, Mit. Lkmiiu'.x. — I have perhaps to the satisfaction of the court, but perhaps others may not be so well satisfied. Mh. ()sLi;it. — If you do not go any further we will withdraw our ol)jection. ]\ru. Lkmikux. — r want to get furth 'r facts, not in justitication of the rebellion but to explain the cii'cumstances under which the accused came into the country. If I had a right to prove what I have already proved a minute ago, I am entitled to prove other racts. If T was right a minute ago, I should be allowed to put similar questions now. His IToxoR Mi{. JusTicK RionARDSON. — The objection is not urged until you had gone as far as the Counsel for the Crown thought you ought to go, Mr. Lemieux. — It is rather late now to object. Mh. Osler. — I warned my learned friends quietly before. Mr. Lemieux. — Well, I will put the question and it can be objected to. Q. Will you say if the state of things in the country, the actual state of things in the country, in 1882, 1883 and 1884, and if to-day the state of things is the same as in II I jSS'j, 1SS;{ ami ISSt, if jiistirc lias itccn donn (o tlif cliiims iiiid just rii_'lils of tlic Mil, ( )SM'.I{. 'I'liMt i|iU'stioii must lie olpjccti'il to, it could imt Iiiim' Irid :uivlliiii,H to (1(1 witli lniiiL;in;f tlic jirisoiicr Ihtc, I nlijci-t first us a matter nt' i)|iiniiiit ; . ri nnd, that it is a litadiii^ ((ucstioii, and third, that it is irrelevant to tli(> issue. ^^K. fjl'.MlKUX. -The most important olijeetiiui is that it is h-adin;,'. As to the opinion of tlui witness, I should think his opinion is salnalile, il is facts I want from the witness, I suppose he can Lfive his opini(»n liased nn the facts. If lie savs no or yes, I will asU him why, and he will Ljive me his reasmi why. Ills llosoit -Mli. JtiSTlcK Uicil AUDsoN, -That will lie a matter of npininn, .Ml!. LlCMTKlTX. ' 1 will pill the (piestioii and you can oliject to it. (,•. I >o yon know if at any time the Dominion ( 'oveinmenl aj^'iced to accede to the (lemands made liy the I lalf-lireeds and ('lerify. relative to the claims and ri^dits yon have spoken of in the precediii!^' aiiswei' ( Mh. Osi.ku. — I do iKtt oliject to the ipiestion, if contined to a date prior to the 1st July, I SS t, t ho time he was ask(((l to coiiio into tin; country, althou,i;h the (|Uestion is really irref,'ular. I am not ,1,'oinjL,' on strict lines, Itut F do oliject to his askinif as reirards the [ireseiit stat(( of thiiiLTs. f do not oliject if he conlines his (iiiestions to the time prior to the prisoner's comiiii^ to the country. Mil. IjKMIKI'X. — -My tpiestion will show that the prisoner had reason to come. If the people hail conlidence in him, he had a li^ht to coni(> and help them, to try and persuade tho federal ( Jo\ criiment to ifrant hat had liceii refused them so f.ir. Hi8 Hoxou -Mu. JcsTici: IIu'IIAkdson. - Your (|uestion is what. Mr. Lemicux ? Mlt. OsLKK. " I am willing (hat the (pn>stiou should he allowed if limited to the time prior to July, ISSI. Ills HoNOU Mu. JusTiCJK IlicMiAKDsoN to Mr. Lemioux. — Is that the way you put it? Mr. Lemikux. -Y(*s. Mh. Osler. — -Then we withdraw the olijcctiou. His Hoxou. — Thou we will have liis answer. Mr. Lemieux. — I want to put the (luestion generally. Mr. Osler. — It is so general and difficult to grasp, anyway, I wont object. INIr. Lemieux. — Perliaps it is ditlicult to you hut not to tlu^ witness. Q. Will you state if since the arrival of the prisoner in the country uj) to the tinu> of the rehellion, the fJovernment have made any favourable answer to the demands and claims of the Ilalf-lireeds ? — A. Yes. I know they have acceded to certain demands in regard to those who did not have any scrip in Manitoba. A telegram was sent on tlie Ith of March last, granting the scrip. Q. Before that time ? — A. Yes, regarding tlie alteration of survey of lots along the river, there was an nnswer from the (Government sayini,' they would grant it, and tliat was au important (juestion. Q. What question then remained to be setthnl ?— A. The (|uestion of jjntents, that has also been .settled in a certain way, because Mr. Duck was sent and 1 went with him as interpreter. Q. What other question remained? — A. Only the question of wood, timber. Q. Do you know that there is a commission sitting in regard to the claims and ]ieti- tions of the "Half -breed si— A. Yes. 11*2 (}. I ».» you know how luiiny elaims and (IimiimikIs liavi> Keen settled liy tliut (•nmiiiission Hill. e it liiis'lM-eii ill cxiHtoiu'e .' A. In wimt pliue if, it? In tlie North Wi'Ht or in the ilisirift fit < 'iirlton 'I il. ( leiienilly. -A. i do not Uiiow. 1 know t'or my own district. il \Vli;it ilo you know / -A. I know tliiit at llntoiiic tlioy j^avo throo HoriiKS. (^. Siii.'c tlic ivl..'liioii'.' .\. Yes, al.uul (liree weeks iif^o. (^). At iMi.U Lake .'-A. Forty. q. Siiife liie ivl.ellion ? -A. Vert, aliout tlie same time. (). Do ynu know of any other?— A. No, not in that district. (^». N'ou iiave iiad oicasion to meet tlio prisoner Itotweeii .July ISSI and the timo of the relieliinii ? - -A. Yes. i}. Wiiat is the naiiK^ of your parish ? -A. I'lince Alliert. (}. You saw tile prisoner thero? -A. Yes. (^. hid voii se(» liim elsewliere? -A. At St. Laurent, several times, I (h)n't know liow often and I saw him at Hatoehe also. <). Have vnu had occasion to speak often to him on the political situation and on relii,'ion ? -A. Fre(|uently, it was tlie matter of oiii' coii\ crsation. (^). |)i(I von lik(! to speak of reli;i,Mon and polii.cs with him ? — A. N'o, I ilid not like to. (}. Will von yive nii- the reason why yon did not like to speak of reliL;ion and politics to him? A. I'olitics and relij,'ion was a suhject lie always sjjoke of in con\ .-rsation, lie loved those siiWjccts. (^. Did lie spcik ill a seiisihle manner? — .\. I wish to say why I did not like to speak to him on those siilijccts. L'^pon all other matters, litterature and science, he was in his ordinary stat(^ of mind. Q. Upon political subjects and religion?— A. Upon polities and reli!,'ion he was no loni,'or the same man ; it would seem as if there were two men in him, he lost all control of himself on those (piestions. Q. When he spoke of religion and jjolitics? — A. Yes. on those two matters he lost all , Mitrol of hims(df. (^. J )o you consider, after the conversations you have had with him, that when he spoke on [lolitics and r.di^ion he had iiis int(dli,L(ence? — A. Many times, at least twenty times. 1 told him, I would not speak on tliosi; sul)jects because he was a fool, he did not have his intclliifence of mind. (). Is that the practical result you have found in voir conversation with lliel on political and reliifious (piestions? — A. Jt is my cxperiencf!. (). Vou have had a jj;ood deal of experience with people and you liave known persons who where iitHiiited with a mania ? — A. i^efore answerini;' that, I want to state a fact to the court rci,'arding the prisoner. You know the life of that man afFected us during a certain time. Q. In what way? — \. He was a f'^rvent Catholic, atteudiiif,' the church and attend- ing to his religious duties frefpiently, and his state of mind was the cause of ^reat anxiety. In conversation on politics, and on the reliellion and on reliuion. In^ stated things which frightened the priests. 1 am oliliged to visit every month the Fathers (priests) of the disti'ict. Once all tlu; priests met together and they j)ut the (juestion, is it possible to allow that m.in to continue in his religious duties, and they unanimously decided that on this ijueslion he was not res|ionsible, on these questions ; that he could not suH'er any contradiction on the ([uestion of ndigion and politics, we considered that he was 11JI r<.inpU'trly ;i foiil. in (li.M'ii.Hsiii:,^ fhrsr (|iicsf iuiis ; it \mi>, like slmw ini,' ii red tlii^ f,o ii • mil, til iiHf II \iil;,')ir t'\|ifi'Hsi(iii, \'\ M V. < 'asi.I! \in. t I iici'inln'r s I \.Mi |i;ii| .-III iiitii'S ii'ss H il !i liii'I ,111(1 iliii uitli n-K.ird tn n (•.•iliiin ^iim of inuiicy wliicli tlif |p|is..ii<'i' rluinuMl t'lnm tlir Knlciiil < fMMTiiiiii'iit? A. Nnl witli Nuliii, N illll \\ il", l|i)t IHTSi'llt lit till' IllliTN H' ( ). T ir IH'Isoiicr ss.ls I liciT A. V n. \\'ill ynll pl.MSi- sliilr wllilt Ihc |ifisoli(M' llskiMl (it' tlic l''r(|iT;il CuMTliliiciit? A. I Iiml lw(» iiili'i'v if\ss with llii' pii.Minrr on tlial Milijcl. <^>. Till' |iiisuiici' cliiiiiinl 11 (•(•itiiiii iiiili'iiiiiii \ t'ruiii (ill' iM'dniil ( In'. I'liiiiinil, ilidn't 111'? -\. Wlicii till' prisuiiiT iiDidc lii>, tliiiiii. I wn.s (jini' wiili uiioliii'r yciit li'iimn and 111- iiskrd tVolii till- (inviTiniH'iit SJOO.CIMt. \\ I' tlmiiyht flint was cNlini'liiiani and ||i<> jirisiiiKM' said "svaii n little, I will take at nnrr s.'l.'i.dOO lash." . Anil nil t lial I'linlii inn i lir |iii'Mnii'r waN In leave I lie country it' I lie ( io\ einiiieiit llilll S;')."i, ()()().' A. Ves, that wa-^ the ennililinli he put. U. Wlieii was thisf A. T lis \\a-> oil I lie _.i|'il I >e('elillper 'N t. (^. Tln'i'e was also allot her interview liel ween ymi and I lie prisniiei'.' A. 'I'liere I Ills )j,'i'ii iili!»iit L'(( interviews lietwcen us, <^. lie was always after ymi In ask ytai In iise'ymir iiiliueiice with (he Kedeial ( i i\ iTiiai • it ti>ol(;i,iii an iiideniiiily .' — .V, Tin' lii>t t iine he >poke of it was on (he Titli Di'i'eiiili.'r, he had ip'\er spolxen a wcn'.l of' i( lirt'ore, and on ( he "J^ird I )eeeiiilier he spoke uhnllt it ae-ain. • . ,•, 'i>. lie ( I'ked alinlK i( very t'reipieii ( | \- .' ..\, ( )ii I |ie->e t 'i>. 'riia( was his "real neeiiii.it ion .' —.\, ^'e^, at those t inios. w(i oc'Ciisioiis on !)■ 114 Q. Is it nut ti-iic that tlic prisoner lias fixed principles in Iiis new relie him freijuently f -A. No, T did not see much of him. I only saw him once or twice. Q. During that time did you have any conversation with Jiim .' — A. No, not that I rememhei". Q. No conversation wliatever with him .' — .\. I had some small oonversation hut none that I can rememl)er well. (^. Do you rememher during the course of last autumn and last winter up to the month of March, do you reiiieinher having any conversation with liiiii on religious mat- ters or on political matters? — ^A. No, I never had. i}. No conversation whatever up to that timt ?- .\. I had .s(niie conversation hut jiot On religion or politics. 11. liis (.}. Did you at any tiinc talk to liini on rdi^riou previous to liis arrest? A. 1 did, utter tlie trouble, after the IStli M ireli. tl (.}. Was he livin.i,' at youi' iiouse .' A. No, luit he eaiiie thei-e oceasionaliy and slept lere soinetunes. <,>. \\ hen he spoke to you of relij;iou do yon lenienilier what he said to you ? - A. 1 know lie was talkinjf to uie aliout ehanifini,' the Pojje or some thinj^ of that kind, wanting: to name I'.ishop i'.oui'u'et, of Montreal. I'ope of the New World as he named it. he spoki' to me several thin,i;s aliout reli;4i(in that ( cannot I'emendier. <,>. Did he say anythinn' to ydu iihnul tin- Holy (Jhost or the Spirit of (lod .' — A. Yes, is was witli liim th h im saiil in my pre.enee, not to me exactly, tliat the spirit of hii; i}. Did he say he had any of the divine attrihutes that are i;'enerally attrihuted to Klias ,' — A. That is what 1 think he meant l)y that. Q. ^^ hat did he say aliout it as far as yciu can recollect.' - .\. lie wanted the )ieo]ilo ill the meetiiii;- to .ickiniwlcdifc him as a prophet iiiid he .na\e them to understiind that he had tiie spirit (if Klias in him and that he wiis iirophesyini;-. (). Do \(ni rememlier uiw (if Ills numerdus pruplieci ies?— .\. I (hint rememlier then !i\ en ena skat- him Kit I n lint (I the luat- liut (). Do you rememlier any of them .' ,\. I know every morniiiu'. almost escry iiKir niiiif, he would come in front of the pedple and say such and such ,i ihinu would liaiiiien, jirayers hefore ? V. \ never heard them except .some of them, he would say the prayer ■•<)ur Father... hut all the rest of the prayers ] n(!V(r heard tiieiii liefore except liy him. Q. i)uriiiii the time vou saw him when he delivered himself nf these pnipheeies you alluded to, what was his temper, how did he act when contratiicted '! -A. He would not .stand contradiction liy any one, he had to have his dwn way in e^erytliiii^-. Q. Was he v.ry siiidnth tempered ,' — .V. No. he was not smooth tempered. (.). Irriti -A. Y U. Did h(! mak(! anv declaration t o vou as to what he tliouiiht himself to lie, in tl way of power or authority ? -A. No, lie did not make any statements to me, hu' in my presence h(> mach? a fleclaration that he was represent iiiy' St. Peter. Q. Did he aspire to any particular jiift or pretend he was endowed with the aliilities of a poet, musician, or orator ? A. No. (}. You did not hear him hoast of his threat intellectual ([ualitie.s ?- A. No. Q. Did he at any time cominuiiicate to you his \ lews with reference to the way in which the country was to lie divided in the event of his .success ? — .V. He did in my [ ue seiice (}. Tell us wliiit he said to \). Do von I'enu'ndii'r anvtiiiny- else liesides tiiose vou liuve mentioned, what otlier t'oreiirners A. It mans. (.). II unijarianN.' A. I cant reniendier partieularly \ ci'y liHerent nationalities. we I know it was se\eii diU'ei'ent provinces, and sexcii (hthMcnt natn>nahtn's (j». Did the plan he then stated appear to you a \cry feasil)le one '. A. I did not lieliexe he could succeed in that. (}. Did he. sav he e\|)ected any assistance from these jieople.' A. Ves.he mentioned he e.'v[)ecte(l assi,stanc(! from them, lie mentioned he expected the assistance of an army of several nationalities, and 1 rem<'nd»er he mentioned the dews. He expected tlieir assistanct! and money, he was ii'oini;- to yixc them a j)ro\ince as a reward for their help. hat IS wh lit I understood him to sav, (^> Did he tell you how he had arranifed that or if he had made any an lue^emeiits ^^ith these people .' — A. He nnu'lit, hut i don't remendier. (^>, In his conversation with ycm. or with others in your ]ircsencc on ihe.-c suhjects, did he at any time ,i;'i\c you any intimation that he had any doulit of his success, that any ohstach' i-ould prevent him from succeedinu' .' A. No. he always mentioned that he that it wiis a divine mission that he had, and that he was only an was "■(> lUii' to succeed instrument in the hands of (iod (}. \\ hen hi' talked of other mailers than reli!.;ion and tli did he act a,ud talk y'eni I -f I le success ot Ills lijaiis. now I' 'I'allv .' — A ! never notice I anv dill'erence in his talk on other matters. lanMUse I never had mucii iiitert'ourse with iiiiii (uiiv diiriii"' tlie time o f tl 10^ troulile I met him li"fore that (,). Did he appear to he act ua I cd liy any friciidsliiji f(U' other peojile, or did he appear to lie wrapped uji in himself.' Did he appeal' to have anv sympathy for anv one except himself.' Did he iipjiear to think of any one lull himself. I mean iluriiiLT the.^e times you had conversation wit h him ! .\. I conid notanswei that (|Uestion. liecause I don't under- stand it riiihtiy, (). When he spoke of i'elii;ion and ahoiit tiie country, and in the ditrereiit interviews with y.ui or others, did you undiu'stand that he had any idea of thinking; of the welt'aieof anvone ;it all except himself, that he was the sole person to he consid(>red ? - A, It seemed as if he was working' in the interest of the llalf-hrei'd population and the settlers irenerally. He mentioned that. Q. Did \(iu communicate to anvone vour impression of this man what vou thouiilit of him .' .\.' I did. Q. What did you think of iiiiii '—A. 1 thought the man was crazy, hecause he acted \ei'V foolish. Bv Mr. HoiuNsoN. Q. He had iii'eat inllueiiee over the llalf-laeed population tliere, hadn't he! A. Yos. he could do almost what he wanted with them. Q. Ar(^ vou one of those who followed him ? A. No. I followed him. hut ayainst. mv w 1 11. Q, What do you mean ? A. When a man hiis a stroiiirer fon-e than I have I liave to follow him. he came to me with an armed force and T had to jjo. Q. Do you say you were forced to follow liim l.v violence? Is that what vou mean? 117 - A. 1 (Innt iiipaii to say 1 was foivod exactly 1>V violpiicc. H,. caiiic and l.nm-lit uw troiii my Ik, use, li.. cam.' with aiiiUHl men, and I saw it was no uko n'sistinj;. <| Do yon mean to say you followed him i,eeause of the armed men, and that that was all that mthieiK-ed you ? A. Yes. *«^- ,"•' '''.I'l .-'••'"t iidlnence over all th<« I lalf laved population ? A. I always thought he had lots of intlinMiee amoin,'st the I lalf-i'feeds. ' "^ g. I lielieve they look.-d to him as a leader and followed liim '' A. Yes, they did. Q. They relied up mi his judgment ami adviee ? A. They did. in th VriAi, F.URMOM) sw.,rn. ex.r.uinel l,y .Ur. L-mieux. (Arthur Lewis sworn a.s interpreter.) V; ^•;',H'' l"'<'t'' •••^^i"" • A. I am a Priest of St. Laurent, in the distriet of Carlton. .111 ()l)lat Father. (,). For how Ion- have you heea a Priest? A. Ten years. 1 arrix-d at th.' iilace le year / .>. . Sine., iiis arriyal in th.' .-ountrv, have you had several .•(•nyersat i.ms with th." prisoner up to th.' tim.' of th.' ivlielli.ui '. A. Vryy ..fteii. g. At St. Laui'ent A. At St. Liuivnt, at i'.atoch.' .hnin,-' ihcwar. r I). ILul you any .■ mi\ .a'sation with the prison. -r .)n reli,<;i.,us and political suhjects ? — A. \'.'ry oft.'u. Q. W.'iv you jiresent at th.' m. '.'tin-- which Father Amir.' spok.' ..f in which Hiel's saiiit\^ was .|U.'stion.'.l ? — A. Y.'s, I was pres.'iit. (}. Dill v.iu a.-r.M' with th.' other Fatli s.)ner ? A. It was me .•.aisult.'.l th.' Ifev.l. Fa s in the opini.jii as to the .>anity .if the pri- h.'rs. (}. W .'iv you personally acpiaint...! with the facts upon which v.ai 1 opiin.in as t.i th.- insa nitv .)f Piel ? .\. I las.'.l \-.(ur liich they lias.'d their ..pinion was |)i'rsonaliy ac.piaiiit.'d w ith the facts u}m)U (.). \V III yo 11 pl.'as.' stat.' u|)on what facts you has.'d y. )ur opini.ai that the prisoner was n.,t sane .,n r.'li-i.ais or politi.'al matters ?- .V. r.'rmit me to divide the answer into tw.), the facts before the reii.'llion. an.l the fa.-ts lion it appeared as if tlier.' were tw.) men in the prisoner ; in |ui\at atlahle, p.)lite. pleasant an.l a .-haritahle man t.i m.'. I imti.'.'.l t (lurin- th.' r.'liellion. P.cf.ac th.^ rehel- .' .'onx I'rsati.ui he waK lat .'N.'iL when lu' \\as(iuiet- ly talke.l t.. ahout th.' allairs of politi.'S and -ov.'rnment and he was not .-ontradicted, I was .|uit.' rati.aial. hut as soim as h.' was contradict. '.1 .ui tli.'.se sulij.'cts then h.' he. a ditl'er.'nt man and li.( would hi' .-arri.'.l away with his f.'eliiiHs. II.' woiil.l -.i so fi IH )e.-anit^ ir as to Us.' \ i.ilent e.\i)r.'ssioiis to th.ise wli .1 were .'Nen his trierd .\ s s.i.ui as the r. ■hell i.iii comm.'ii.-.'.l th.'ii h.' hi-cam.' excited, and h.' was earrie.l away and he l.)st all c.uitr.il ..f himself and of. his ttMiiper. He went s.) far, that when a Father contiailicted him ho h.'.'aiiie .piite excite.l, and h.' had n.i r.'spect tor him and he often threatened to d.'str.iy all ihe •hurch.'s. }l.' says: Tli.'re is dan-.'r f.a- you, hut thanks f.ir the fii.'ii.lship 1 ha\.^ for y.iu. I will protect you fr.mi any harm. Once I w.'ul t.) St. Antoiiie aii.I there I met a numh.'r of priests, and llii'l .says : I have heen apii.iinted hy * '.e Cmineil t.. h.' y.)ur spiri- tiril ad\ iser. I s.aid our spiritual ad\iser was the Bishop, and Mr. lii.'l would imt h.' him. Th.-r.' is .inly on.' way you can h.' .iiir adyiser. the .inly way y.iu can hecoui.' .so is liy slmotin- us, th.' .uily way y.ui can dir.'ct us is hy shootin- us. and then y.iu .'an diivct our corpsi's ill any way you like. That was my answer t.i him. ll.s (Tlit^ iiiterprpter states tliat lie docs not t'l'el (lualilied to I'orrt'ctly iiitcrpict the (•\ idcnce, and Mr. Cas,<,'miii proposes tliatlu' translates tlie evidence given liy tlie defence, and Mr. Kitzpatrick tliat <,'iv('n li, tlie (!ro\vn ; wliicli is agreed to.) Witness continued He has exti'aoidinary ideas on tiie suUjecl ot' tiic Trinity. Tli<> only ({od was (iod the Father, and that (iod the Sou was not (lod, tiie Hoiy-tiliost was not (!od eitlier. Tlie second person of the Trinity was not (Jod, and as a conse(inence of this the Virgin Mary was not the mother of (iod, l)iit the mother of tlie son of (Jod. That is the reason wiiy he changed the fornuila of the prayer which is eomnionly known as " Hail Mary" Insti'ad of saying " Hail Mary, niother of (iod " he said " JIail Mary, mother of the Son of (iod." He did not admit the doctrines of the Church of the Divine presence. Accoi-ding tohis ideas it wasnot (iod w liowas [)resentin the Host, hut an ordinai'v man six feet high. As to his ])olilical ideas he wanted first to go to Winni]ieg. and Lower Caiuida, and the I'nited States, and even to France, and he said we will take your coun- try even, and then he was to go to Italy and o\erthrow the I'ope, an done as it is now. It is a i|Uestion excn whethei" cncu if consented to as in this case, it would he hinding in e • rindnal case. (-'(Hirt here adjourned U^y hinch. ( )n Cor.rt resun iniL .oui- )urget was apjiolnted interpreter. (.^ Before adjourmnent you said that Kiel had said iu' was going down to W that he was g(u'ng to the l'r( innipeg, i\ nice o f (..> Uelicc then he was ;,'oing to cross the ocean and point himself as Pope ! A, Ves, he said sonu^thing to that etiect. one apponited or (.) a\i you made u]i y ,'our mind ahout the pi'isonei' iieing sane, as far as religi.nis matters are I'oi'cerned '/--A. W( were nci'v much eudiarrassed first, hecause sometimes he looked i-easonahle and sometiuu's he loold like a man who did not know what he was saying. Q. Finally .' A. \\'e made up our minds there was no way to explain his conduct, lait that he was insane : otherwise, he would ha\ e to he too liig a .crinuiuil. t^). As the agitation was progi-essing. did you notic(>, a change in his condut't, in his mind ? A.. A great chang(.', he was a great deal more excitaWle. (}. At the time of the rehellion, y(Ui formed the opinion that he was insane .' A. Yes. \ can tell some facts to that ell'ect (^>. If it is not too long, will ymi tell what it is? A. < )nce he was asked hy the jieople to explain hi.s \iews on religion, on rtdigious matters, so tlu y I'ould see through them. When he found out the clergy wen- against him. that he was contradicted, he turned against the clergy, parti.adarly against nu", and opposed the tdeigy, and k'ept fol- lowing me into the tents whercNcr I would go. He compelled uu' to leave the [dace, go down to the rixcr and ci'oss t. When you tii'.st t-iuim tu liatodi was. .-ere you tViciids witli tlic jirisoiier ? — A. Yes, <(>. Voii repent wliat you lia\c alreadv said tl ■i\n' prisoner was not in liis mind ? A. Yes. iit in nuctter's jmlitical and religious . And eould not l.(> conti'olled ? A. Yes. *v>. And was not saiu- ? —A. 'S'es. <>>. Wliat happened at the (/ouneii house wlien lie lirou,i,dit you there ?— A. F was aecount of my eonduet as a priest and several Other matters a,i,'ainst tlie to render oi ]>ro\isional tiyer. u\ernment. I lie prisoner i^ot \ crv much exeited and called me a li tti( il Why did li(. call you a little tv^w ?— A. I . Did li(> e\(M' sh the l.lood ot' the huHah •saw it, till >w you a little hook in which he had written tjiose propjiecies in > as to the t'uture ot' this ci)unti'v ?— A. I I icard o f it liut I never prisoner ne\-er spoke to me ahout the h i>y Ml!. (JASCKAIX. <). It was when the pri.soncr was contradi.ded that he liecam(> uncontrollalde ? A. Y'es. that IS what I sail <.^>. It was then the prisoner liecame uiicuntrollalile ? — A. Yes, andatotl ler times to. (.» Half- )ree( Ifalf-l Is did not ciintradict him on reli^-ious matters ? — A Some of tl ireeds did con tradii-t liii; le U. A great numlier, most of the 11 df-lu'ceds f -A. I oiiowed him in I IS relin'ious \ lews cannot say. " most" would he too m;inv tj. A ,yreat numlier ? A. ^■es, anil several did not dare to express their \ iew.s. Q. Before the rehellion lu'^an he was ipiiet and siuie in mind ?— A Yes, relati\elv, except sometimes, when he was contradicted, as 1 .said this nr -iriun.L;'. (i When do you tix the commencement of the relieiliou (—A. The iStli of March. The prisoner came himself and lu'oclaimed the r eoeilKui. <.>. He made vou t; iKi' an o ith of neutnditv t( tl o wards the pr'i visional <.'overnmcnt, duriiii;- the reheliion .' A. No. there was no oath hut there was a written promise, con <'erninii' the exercise ot tlieministrv nal ^oNcrnmen t ?— A. Y . Was it in terms of neutrality towaids the pid\ isio (). Y'ou said there was no other way to explain his conduct than to sav he was in .sane or a i;reat criminal, and you would rather sav he was insane. Rather than sav he was n ureat criminal, vou wouli sav lie was insane -A. I did not sav that, hut inind it was the hest 111 IIP w.iy to exjilain it. (i>. Y'ou liiul naturally a ^reat deal of fiiendship for the pri.soner ? — A. I could not have friendship, hecause I did not know him at the li(>yiniiinu;', and afterwards, when I 1. cajiie acipiainted with him. the friendship was hroken ofl". (.). Between the time when he came to the Mission and the time you had a nipt lire with him, i.s it not true that you and he were friends, that you had a i^reat deal of friend .ship for hira ? — A. Yes, as I would have for you. Q. Religion has a .great iiiHuence on Half-breeds? — A. In what sens<> ? 120 q. Ill 11 ;;(Mi('riil sviiy. TlifV an- n ivliirioiis i)t>()|)li' liy iiistiiu't ? A. V<'s, n-li^^i'Mi lias a iircat iiilluiMicc w itli tlicin. UANco IS I {<)\ sworn, ex lllllilli'd li\ Mr. Kll/.TAI KICK. Lmiis I'xiiiruct, Intcipi'ftcr. (). \in\ iiic a (lurto)' of iiii'dcriiic ? — A. ^'^s. Q. Ill tlic citv (if QllclttH'? A. 'N'cs. I lif Idiii;- to (iilclxM'. (}. What is your position in t^hiclicc ? A. For a i^rrat iiuimImt of years I liaveliccu ni(M|ical sinu'rintcnd lit and one of tlii' |iro|irit'tors of the lunatic as\liiiii of Itcaiiiioit , ( ). How Ioiil;- ha\c vmi lifcn i-onnn-li'd w it li tlic asylum as a siiiicrintciidi'iit ? — A. .More than tiftccii or sixticn vcars. (.,). Y ou an- also a ini'inlicr of the Socii't\' of A nii'i'iraii •f the Soi'ict \' of the. Supi'riiitciidi'nts of tin' insane Asylums of America ? — A. ^'es. (}. I )urinL,Mliese lifteeii or sixteen years, your duties called you to luaUe a special study of tile diseases of the hraiii .' Is it not true that it lias lieeii necessary for you to make a special study of diseases of the hrain '—A. 'N'es, it was my duty to ,<,'o to the priiici]ial asylums in the I'nited States, and see jiuw the patients were treate(| tliere. A. V Q. Had voii any connection with the asylum at r)(>auport. in lS7,")and iSTli g. ^■ oil were a t that t ime suiierintendeiit of the asylum ' — A. \ (}. In those \ears or aO' out t hat t ime. did you ha\e occasion to see thi> prison e Certainly, many t in (X Wliere di (I \'ou see him '. A. in the asyl um. {). Can you t.'ll the dat< A. Yes, t^ ■ dat e WHS taki'ii fr. Will you tell me what time he lefi the asylum .' — A. He was disciiar<:ed altoiit tiie "Jist .lainiarw after a i esideiice in the house o f iilioiit nineteen montiis. \\as afi'ected : \du occasion to study at that time the mental disease hy winch tiie prisoner A. ^' (,). I )id you lia\e relations witii him diiriii"' tiiat time and did nou \\at<-li liim care- I di at<-ii fuliy (luriii'f that time .'—A. Not eyerv day, liut yei'y oft I'll. Q. Can \()ii sa\- now what mental disease the prisoner was then sull'eriiii' from .' — A. H. was sull'eriii;'- from \yhat is l! ir.ay '>•' nMsnii:il)|c und soiiH-tiriics iiiiiy lie very cIcnci'. In fiK't, wiUioiit ciircfiil wiit^ liiiig tln'V would lend one t i think tliiit, tlicv were wrll. <(|. W'ds lie tliHi'i' solium weeks or inontlis before you ascei'tiuned his uieiital coiuliiioii ? A. Yes, I waited till then to eliissit'y liini as to his mental condition. We wait a t'(>w weeks het'oiv classifying,' tin' jiatients. i). Does a feelini;- of |ii'idc occupy a [irominent position in that mental disease ! A. ^'es ditl'erent forms, relinion and there are orent many with prid*'. We ha\i- kin'us with IIS. f^). is the (jU(>sti(in of selljshness or cL^'otism prominent in those cases? A. ^'es. (.). Are they liahle to channe thcii' atl'ections lapidly ? A. Yes, hecause they ai'n snsceptilile to the lea-,t kind of attraction. <.^. In that particulai' malady are the patients L;enei'ally inclined to lie sam;uine as to the success of their project ? A. The dilliculty is to make them lieliev e t hat t hey will not ha\'e success ; you cannot lirini.' them to chancre, that is a characieristic of the disease. (). .Vre peo|ile who sutler of this parriiadai' form of disease lialiie to he ]ier: Miently ctireil, oi' are they lialile to fall hack into the old malady? A. 'I'hey i^cnerally rem.iin in that condition, they may \ii\\v sensilile moments and the inlernnssjou wouldn't inierfere. (). In a ciise of this kind, ceuld a casual oliservcr. without any medical experii^nce, form an estimate as to the state .. I the man's mind ? A. Not usually, uidess he makes a special study of the case, 'i'heie is more or less diU'erence in e;ich case. Q. Wlia.t is the posit ion of the nnnd of a man sutTerini; from this disease, in reference to other sulijects which do not come within the I'adius of his mania? A. They will answer (juestions as any other man w itli a sens, of reason, it is only when they touch the spot of their monomania that they hecome delirious. (J. V(Ui stated that the |)risoner left the asylum in 1S7S? A. In.laiiuary |S7,<. (.}. Have you escrseen him from tint tinu' till yesterday? .\ . No, ne\ er. (^. I )o you recoi;inze him perfectU- as the ^ame oerson whu was in ycau' a>yluni in lS7l) and 1S7S? .\. Yes. <^). Were yiMi |)i-esent at the exaudnat ion of the wit nesses that took place to-day and yestei'day ? .\. Partly. i.^. Did you hi'ar the witnesse.-, de^crihinL;' the actions of the prisoner as to his peiai- liai' \ iew s on relieion, in reference to his power, to his h which you refer, that he was capable or incapable of knowing' the nature of the acts which he did? -A. No, I do not believe that he was in a condition to be the master of his acts and 1 positiv(>ly sweai'it, and 1 ha\e people of the same character under w supervision. Q. Will you swear from the know ledsre you have heard ? A. Fi'(jm the witnesses? Q. Tliat the man did not know what he was doiiii,' or whether he was contrary to law in reference to the jiarticular delusion? A. No, and for another reason, tlie.satne character of the disease is show ii in the last period, the same as when he was with us 122 tlirrc is no (litft'i'ciicf. If thoi'o was any (HHV-nMicc in tlit" synipfonis, I would liavi- doulits, J)Ut it was of the same cliararter so well (U'scribcd liy Datjoust, who is taken as anautlio rity and has I)c(MI adopted in Kranee as well as in Aniei'iea and Knt,dand. (^. The opinion yon iiave formed as to the soundness of his mind is liased on the facts that the svmptoms diselosed hy the witnesses hei'e yesterday and (o-day ai'e to a lar,i;'e extent iut it is a pulilic if the word, we rccei\e iiatients \\\ order of the Ooxernmcnt m^tit ntion m tint sense ( niancial Oasis is c(UH-ei'nc( l.-- .\. N( (»). IJut it is a private asylum as far as its I lieraiise it is ruled hy the < ioxcrnment. (,). Is it owned liy the ( io\ crnment or hy the |)roprietors ? ,\. I>y the propi'ictors. (,). It is only suhject to inspection liy the ( ioveinment ? .\. To inspectinif and visitini;- hesides. (,). Is tlic |iroiit or loss of the e^talilishnuMit lioi-ne hy the propriet(U's ? .\. Y'es, \t\ tl \f iiroiirietors. (,). What is the extiuit of your accommodation, how many patients? A. I do not know uhethi'r you iiavc the rii,'lit to ask these ([uestions. U. II o\\ many patients have you ui it ? \. Sometimes th u' nundiei' inci'eases anil sometimes it diminishes, accccdinif to the dischar,i,'es. 1 think thei'c would he an avei'a;ife of fiom ^011 to illH). (,). It is fr(uu the profit of keepinn' tliese patients that the jn'oprietors mak<' money? — A. .And to pay expenses and the interest upon a laryc capital put in. (,). "^'ou are piid li\ the (lovernmcut and paid hy [uasate patients? A. When we liavc them. t^. .And the proprietors manau'c it as a place to cure and where they hoard these thousand peojile ? A. We have a place to cure and take care oi those- poor people who faniiot take cart; of themselves. (.). W ui manaL:'e the institution ? -A. There is a mediciil supi'rintendeiit. (,). Who manages the financial part of the institution and looks after the lu'ead and l)Utter of the patients? -A. We have a treasurer to look after that Q. You ha\'e a medical su[)erintendent to look after the medical department ? A. Yes, and we have rules and regulations of tlie house. (J. le propi'ietoi's only have a general supervision? A. More than that, i myself am a specialist. (,). You are (piite a specialist in keepiiiif a hoai'diny- house ? A. Xo. <,). You have to look after that ? -.A. Xo. (,). Who looks after the tin xncial part ? -.\. My co-associates. (i). You do not look after that? -.\. Xo. (j). You loiik after the patients? — A. Yes ] take a special interest in the iiisi und those who recpiire treatment. llie i^. Will you tell me whether you ever prescrilied or h)oked personally after the jir sonei ? -A. J did. !• (l(>l|l)tS, ill! tlUtllO t'(\ on the V (ire to ii IS ilt \l)lll- cluiriictcr s H pulilic , criiiiicnt A. N.., prictoi's. rtiiiLf iiiid . Yes. I,v . I (Id not ciiscs ami in incnmc <' nioiicv ? W'lu'ii we )iir(l tlicsi' cojilc wlici l)i'i'a(l and •tniont ? , I Miyselt he msanr after the 12:J il I'ndt'r wliat name was tlie |iris(tncr in (lir AsyluiM ( A. I'ndrr ilic nanic of l.aroclicllc. . rndn- what name does he appear in your Looks? A. That is it. (,). Did yon know his riudit iiiinic? A. No, I w;is not pivsenl when hr entoivd the tii>t (hiy. (,). Ila\c you H(,t thf papci's with >()U un(hT wiiidi you hfhl him ? -A. Iha\ftliis iiii'moraiidum liook. (,). I want to see tlic papei-s ? A. No, I ha\i'Uot Itrou^lit the liooks. (,). Ila\(' you any p.ipers show ihL;' uh:it disease !ic had and unih'f whose cert ilieato hi- was conlined ? A. I eiiiniot ,ifi\ c yon what I iia\ c not i,'ot. are paj. I'cs and rrrtitie itcs lih-d .' -A. Tliwse papers are kejit l.y tlic T'rov- imial Soeretiiry and I wouhi hiivc to oi.t (licui fi^un him. . W'lu^re did you make (iiat note from ! A. From ihr re;,Mster, lakinx the exaet dale. ■ (}. It is from that rei'istcr only tliat you iirc alile to speak of tin- cjise .' A. Xo, it i- only a Indj) to my nuunoiy so as to he exact as to diite. (»). Amoni;- tin- thousand patients that wcic there at the time, have you a jx-rfeet reiiillectiou of iiis symtoms ? -A. Yes, liec^ause he was a special ease and <,'a\e nie a good dcil of care. Q. Did you inipiii'c into his fornu'r liistoiy ' A. No, except as to the fact of his disease. ^i. You did not ^-et the history of tlie patient '. A. I asked s(uue (pu'stions as to the I'liiiditions of his i .. u'acter and his disease. Q. Was there necessity liy reason of his \ iolence to have him under restraint ? V. ^ es, sometimes he was vers- \ iolent. (J. You found out wliiit his nauu' wns ? -A. He (onfessed to me who lu> was. (}. That violence was after he was ad.mitted into the Asylum ?~A. Yes. (}. Ail this treatment w-ould appear in the liooks, there would lie a history of the '-a>e '.--X. Xot always, it depends. It is in the medical 1 k. Q. ^ ou have no Imok oi- copy of the liook here? — A. No. >}. You have l)rou,i,dit us nothini;-^ -A. ICxcept what I am ahle to t( 11 from memory. ^i. You kie'W a lony time liefore that you \v"vc ndin,L( to he examined as a witness ill 'his easi', you luui liei'U spoken to about it shortly after the capture, of the i)ri,soner ! A. No, I was asked hy teleo-i-ajih. (). You wi'Vi- seen liv the friends of the prisoner shortlv after he was arrt^sted ? A. Xo. (}. When where you spoken to ahout ;;-i\in'4 evidence at the trial? -A. Some days ii "fore the trial came on. (j). Did it not strike you that it wouUI he important to have a written history of the i-iisc, the cau.se of liis cnuimittmeut, did it not strike you that that would lie a nuitter of importance in eoiisidei-int^' a case of this kind? -A. No, J thought they would ask me my "pinion of the case. (). That is what you thought would he satisfactory ? — A. I never thought of coining :ii all at tir.st. (,). At the time he was there, you attended how many cases - A. I saw t III' 1 1 Mist iiu|iiii'lMMt ciiscs, mill limk ti i^ii'at ilral ut iiitrirsi in tliriii uii iicmiiii nf tlic i'i's|ii>iisil)ility i>t' llir tiTiitinrnl. (.). Am! till- otiit'rs wiiiilil raii'v . iliiw iiiaii\' patii'iit'^ had vuii iiuilri- \Miir iiiniiriliati> t rrat ini'iit in llii' yrar 77 — A. I am imt alilc tn trll you. i) jltO casi's .' A. No. w I' lia\ I' not I m) cases of arufr mania unilrr oiir haiiils iiiit'ii tiinati'ly. (). How many ilid you lia\t' undcfyonr |ii'i'sonaI trfatmi-nt .' A. 'I'Im' cases of wliii! 1 make a sneiial studv ace acute mania. <>>. I low m in\ of sucli cases would vou lia\e in a vear ' - \. Nm manv unfoilu natelv. ou some of the names. I cannot tell you all. If you iiiention lie iwunes I would know atnait them. Q. Ireaiment ot those in I'soiis is "-one troni \our mini I .' \. .M ore or less. <.>. ^'o^ see the \alue >f wrilten tesiinionv here ,' .\. There are ceilai n cases. e was and lie liim S( o lin; . |)id yoii not know that uiis man was Kiel .' A. I heard that h If ailiidtte I to me that liis name wiis liiel. . Who put him in the .Vsyliiin .' \. The ( lo\ ei'iiment. (}. < >n whose eertiticate. on what medical certiticate was he put in? .\. f d know, it is ill the department of the J*ro\incial Sei-i'etiU'y. We admit them as sent hy the ( Joxerniiieiit. (). "N'^ou are paid hy t he ( io\ ernnieiit ,' A ^'es. (^ That is the hn'al ( !o\ eriiment of (.Jut'licc ? -A. ^ es, tiny seetiiat e\erytliiiiL: i- eorrcHi , They lui\ e a sjiecial physician for that. i} ^ ou say tlu: main feature of this disiMse is what .' what is the leadini;- feature of this disease do vou sav '. do vou sav it is a ti.xcd idea iiicaualile of chan<'e .' \. Thai one thiim I iiia\' sa\'. (.». W ill \ou answer the ouestion, do \iiu sav that the leadiu"' tVatui'H ot" tiled ISIMsi is a lixi'd idea iiicapalile of change liy reasi^iiini;' .' A. I did not succeed in clian^ini;' , <,>. I ask vou is that the leadiiin' feature of ihe disoise.' -A. Thar is one of the fi turcs. <). Is it the leadini;' feature .' .\. It is one of them, it is one of the characteiisi ji features ^i A ti\ed idea with a special ainhition inca])ali!e of chaniic hy reasoniuLt ? -A . ^ we (lid not succeed in chan,i;-in<; the idea ot the patient, Q. Well, that lixed idea is lieyoiid his control .' A. I (Mitirelv. wonld'nt lie ju'epared to say Q If it is lieyond his control, he is an insane man .' .\. \ es Q. Is not this fixed idea lieyond his control .' .V. Yes. il If within his cditrol, it is an indication of sanity .' -.\. That he was tryiiij;- ti hotter', he may lia\-e had intermissions in which he understood his condition. un iii'iDiihi lilt II vt'iir ( ( iiiids uiiti'i it's nt' W Ilirli IV lllltiil I II ii'Utc faM'N Villi tfcai'il iif'iit inn I Ik r less. CilSCS. llul lie liilii i. r (111 iMi; iis Sl'llt \i\ ('I'VtiiiiiL: i~ iif,' tV'iitmv f^'-A. Thar the ilisra-r iiiyiiii;' ... nt' the tea ii'actcii^l ii- ?-A. Y.>. larod to sav yiii^i;' to yi'' (,). If it is siilijcct to roiitiol, it is not n lixnl iili-a. tliat is wlmt wo Imvi" iilti'immI n|>nii I- till' ItMiliiii,' cliiUMi'tci'istic. do yoii iiiidi'i'staiid .'--A. I do not know wimi von iirt«iit'tt'i-. (i». It' this idiM is siilijfct to emit ml thrii.this man is saht-.'— A. There may lie inter- niissions when lie can contioj hiniscjt. liecau>c then tlic insanity (rsa|p|)eiii's. (J. And llieii there is a lucid intei\al .'—A. ^'es. (i>. hiiriiiii the period of the in-thei'.' (}. I am not an expert in insanity, can yoii ui\e nie any other lead inn t'eai iireot the disease .' —A. I ha\e no oilier t'eature to ,yi\e. (,). 'i'lrit is the only one you can dcM'rilie ,'— A. I ;,'.i\eyou the t'eat iires and cliarae- iciistics ot the disease well enoiiiih. (}. I am yoiiiL;' ti) keep \ (III to I hat unless yon want to eiiiarL;e iipmi it, I am yoiuM' to luiiki my lln'ory upon that : you can tuilarye it as iniicli as you like now, hiit do not yo hack upon me atterw inU .' Is there any other leading feature of tiio disease.' .\. I havt« ui\en you the principal characteristics of his disease. t,). I vvant to n'M I he pi>, Miliar chaiMceiisi ic- of this form of mania .' ,\ . The\lia\e intermissions. Mmietimcs t'(U' months ,and sometimes for days, '{'he least contradict ion excites them. <^) There is a class of he ilthy intermissions, soniet imes a man likes heer and sometimes whiskey, i want to ^et I hi' cli arai'teristic that disi in;;aiish him from a lieallli\- man. not I li'),e that we lia\ (• in common with the insane .' — A . We always .answer reasoniililv, hut «lien a III in comes and pretends to know e\ erythine and talks nonsense, we expect that to a certain extent he has lost Ids reason. (,). We want to ^(■t at the leadin^' cjiavacterist ic, you hiueyivcn lis one feature is I here only the one feature .' If there are .any other features, say so.' A. j won't oi\(. \'ou any. Will you stick to it .' A. Yes (^). Then what leadiiii; idea not suhject to chaiiLt'e hy reason is it that nou lia\e lixeil iijion in tlie e\id(uice yesterday or to-day liriiiLi'in.L;' yon to the conclusion that he is of un- s(Uind mind ' -.-\. it is Wecaiise of soiiii' symptoms. (J Tell me the sympioiiis that liiini;' yon to the conclusiiui that this man is within the rule you have laid dow n .' Tell me the facts that hrine- Jiim w itliin that rule ? A. The fai'ts are that lie has always kcjit that characteristic. Q. Answer that ipiestimi ,' Air. FlTZi'ATliK'lc. — This w itness has Ween sj)eakiiij;- in lMii,dish for some time past. If the witness does not unilerstaml the ([uestious properly he should answer the (lUestioiis in Kreneii. ^fr. ()si.i;i{. If the man w.ints to ]\\(]o himself under the French, he can do so. liiid duwii .' A. I want to tiiki' the tact ihunkI (ly tlio i'viiltMU't' nt'i' Ih iiiMUif ! A. It is, and I lirlirv !■ il In III' sllllicirllt. (j Is il riiiisisli'iil w illi a man laiiiirin;; uiidi'i an idra nni . mil mlhilili' l>\ iiioin. that lit wiiiild iiliiiiiiliiii thai idfa tnr ."^."iri.tKlO ,' Ml!. l'"ri'/,l'\ri{l('K I iiliit'fl III ill, it ; that has nut liccn |ir(i\i'il. Ills I liiMiu, — What is till' iiiii'sti nil Mif. ( )sLKii —Is il t'liiisisli'iit uitli a man lia\iii^aii iilt a imi innl mllalilr li\ iraMin til Ll 111- will aliiniliiu that idea t't>r f?:?.').!)!)!! .' hft that lir a liyi'nl ht'l ital i|in'stiiin .' Ml! Kil/I'A ri!li'K. I iilijt'ct til t he i|ilt'st inn. Ills lliiMil! Ill' tan jiiit liy|ititlit't ital i|iirst inns. Ml!. ( ).si,KU.- -My li'aint'il tViriul miisi knnvv thai, i lif t|iit'stinii is rrifiilar and .slnnilil nut iiitiTlVi'i' at. a. ciil ifal part nt' t lit' fxaminai imi. sn as tn yi\ r thf u it Hfss a ciif. Mi;. l''iT/.rAri!l<'K I ilid nut lia\fai;v iicli iiitfiit inn. W'c lia\t' the rii,dit tn iilijrii iiid \\f init'iitl tn I'MTi'isi that ri'dit. .Ml! <>si,i;i{. A'nii sliniild mil fxiTtdsi' it in siifh a w ay as tn M;i\ (. thi' wit ni'ss a iiif. That is till' siv'ond ciif ynii liaNt'Ljivrii tin- \\itnr>s You i^-am' a liiiii ciii' in ri'naid in .s|H'akiii,i; in Kii'iifh. Q. Will ynii aiiswt'i' the t|ii('stinn : is it cnnsistt'iit with thf Ifadin^L, rt'atiii'f nt' tiii> disi'ast', an idt-a not ftintrnllaldc liv it'ii.soii, that In- shniild ulinndnn that idra t'ni' niniii'V ' .V. 1 think it is |iiissilili' that tin' |iiisnnfi' miyht want tn nlitain the iiiniii'y tn alt IMI thf iiliifrt lif has 111 \ifw. Q, It may lif cnnsistfiit it' lif wants thf mniify tnr thf niijfft hf wishes tn nlitaiii ~\. Y fS, tl ftlll Q. Dnynii say that that aiiswf: 's cnnsistfiit with thcitlea that hf is not alilc t trni his actiniis .' A. Vfs, it ;,'ivfs it in H'f strf ii,irtli. Q WluTfin dofs that ditl'fr t'l'nin the idea nt' a sound mind ? — .\. Tt i.s vpi'v iiii|)tii'- taut ill this case particularly, the patient sJinws ;,'rfat aliility in takiiiji^ the iifcfssary iiifiins to accniiijilisli the piirticular mission \)iat lie liflieNcs has lieoii ;j;i\ cii him, lif Avas rfasoniin; I'mm a false liasis, ami that is ii flia. .ctfi'istif of this disease. <^>. I )i) you ii;,n'fe u'ith this jn'opositinii : " An insane delusion is never the result fl reasiiiiiii'^' and i-etlectioii " ? — A. I don't understand what you want to ;[iet at. Q. I want yon to i^ive an answer, do you a;;ree with that proposition, that an insane ilflusinii is never the result of reason and retlectiou '/ — A. 1 lielicNc that he makes falsi' vfasiiiiinj^r from a false jirincijile. Q. Is ilflusion |iro(Uiffd liy reasoning,' smd deduction? — A. It has lieeii Iiy jial Uc iiatioii anil (^. That is not an answer to my f|Uestion. T want to know wliethei- a delusion, ai. insane delusion, may he the result of reasoiiinir and deduction, or is it always tiie jire- duction of the disease? — A. Sometimes, not always, .sometimes liy false insi>iratitin. Q. Sometimes liy sane inspiration ? — A. Yes. I-J7 ft |)|'n\ 111 'orv lii'iii .^ V nil \M)|l t IIIISWIT IMV illll'S tioii ? — A. I liavi- (Iniic inv ln-st. i(\ss a ciic. rcgiuil 111 iri' (if 1 hi- ll' iii'iiicy ' to tUliiiii II (ilitiiin ' lie tti I'liii ■y iiiiiiui- )iri't's>-;ii') liilii. 111' <^. lliiM-yiMi not till' i;i|iii(ity lo iiikIitsIhih! it .' A. 'I'liiit limy Ik' yuiw opiiiiiin, (^. Titki- an iiisiiuf ilrliisiuii in a man > lii'iiii, ran it lit> lii'uii!,'lit liy I'l'iiNonin;; and ilriliii-tiiiii, iir is it tilt' DiitiMtiiir nt tlir ilist'iiNt* ,' A. It is tlit> t'iiiisfi|iiiMi<'i' of liis disciiN*-. i). Anil, tlicrcforc, it lias imtliin;; tn ili> with rrasnn ami iliilin timi .'— A. I lii'lii'\c ill, it \vlii-n ii pnlii'iit is iiihIit lhi> inllni'iii'i- nf hiilliii'inatinn, In- is i|iiiti' liryniiil rnntini, Q. Null say it is tlw lii-si |ii'iiiri|i|i' uf iiii's|iiiiisiliiiiiy, w hrthiT it i> I lir iisiiit nf ijisi'asr III' wlii'thi'f it is ihi- rrsiili nf ri-asnu. ilistmii'il i'inimhi if ymi will, it is miU li\ ilirti'iiHc lliiil till' insani' (Irliisimi is |ii'ii(|iii'i'i| .' A. ^'l•s, liy (hi' ijistiil'lianrr nf tlir luaiii w liirli t hrif is in i'\ rry nisi-. (} .\nil it is liy I'i'asnn nf it lii'iiiLf a jirniliirf nf tlir iliscasi' that it is not mnt i'nlhili|t> ? A It is a cnnsfinit'iii'i' uf it. (,). Why iln ynii s,iy this |ii'i>niii'i' iliniiiL;' I his tiim' hail im k imw |i'(li:r nf iji^hl fmni w roiij,' .' — A. I say that tin- |irisiinrr was iiihIi'I' tlir inlluriiri' nf his ilrlusinn tiiat lir li;iii ,1 s|M'iMal niissinn tn fiillil. (^. l'"i'oiii what fai'ls ill r\ idr dn ymi say that tlir |irisniii'r rnnid imt dist iiii;uis|i lirtwt'i'li I'iyllt and W inli!,' .^ .V. Tliry lirsi'l' rnllld |il'n\ r tn him that that liiissiiiii iii'M'i- I'visli'd. Ml'. Kir/l'ATiMCK l( Is iiii|i(issilili' fnr us tn a(i'i'|it such a translatinii as is imvv lii'illi; L,'i\ I'll nf t 111- i'\ idrlli T. Ml'. 1 1 UI'M'AsiilKl.ns. Till' last t wii i|Ui'st inns havr lint lii'iMi Iraiislaicd |ii'n|ii'ily. Ml'. < >si,l';ii. - \\ I' lia\ !• (I I mi' rvriythiiiy w r rniild In |iriiciiri' a t ra lis hi I nr. wc did imt ant nil fnr nlli' jial'l nt till' i'\ idi'llcr, and it was tnl' l Iw ilftrnci' tn ininill I'f iiiir 111 iriidcriii!/ a witni'-s w hnsr I'vidriii'i In lie tl an> iti'd. .Mr. h'l i/.i' \i'i!l('K. — 1 say it is cntii'i'ly w rnni,', il sjiniiid In- taki-n dnw n in FitihIi Mr. ( )si,Kl(. It lias lircii taken dnwn in {'"iciirii as wrll as in l'aii,disli. .Mr. l"'i'rzi'.\'l'Hl('K. It has i,'nnr tn the jury in l'ai,L;iisli. M. ()si.Kii. Tlir witiirss can explain liimself in Kiiu'lisli Imt was told iint to d n so. 1 1 was n >t iiiv ilitiieiiltv, 'fS. hail .Mr, KiTZl'.VTKlCK.- -I think that the Act of 'lsr,Kl!. (}. Is tliiif tlic only reason wliy yon siiy the prisoner could not di- (in^uisli lictwcen rii/lit iuul wronu' ■ A. I ni\<' tltiit iis one of tlie reiisons. (,) (live tliat . . . .( Ji\ •■ me imv otlier reason? A. Tl le reasons , -ispircd Ity such a letter. O 1 ),i \du s;i\' tiiat an\' man claiminij' to lie insi)ired is insane so as not to he ahlc to t lie evidence of fraud on the pari of the man makiny' it ? — \. Not vlion the same niea has lieen sustained at dillercnt times without reason. (,). When the idea is sustaii'i'd from time to time it is onlv sustained w ith insaiut' IS tl. It t Ic answer A. ^■ es |rirticulari\' with that kind of delirium. < > |) I von know ih" historx' of .loseiih Smith the Mormon, \>ould von consider 1 mil iiisaii! -A. No, I do not know Ins liistor\' ^l l>iyoii know an\lhin^of Uri'^liam Youiii;, would \'ou call him insane/ A. Ti iii\' niiiiil III' was more or less insane (^>. \\'( uld you cill llriulriiii ^'ouin^s ideas of prophetic iiisjiiral ions iiiconsist with the knowledLje ot what is rn,dit and w roiii cut .V. It would rci|uire an e.xaminat ion. If vou seni' him to the asylum for a few months. | will make a study of the case. t^). 1) ics not tlc' wlioje e\ i'lciice sustain the theory that it was a sl^ilfnl fraud ? .\. J don t tlunk so. I siw the prisoner at my place, he always retained the im])ression that h'' I id a mission, w iicn he could li;i\e none and he had nothiiiL;' to ^aiii li\' it. i}. I am asking' the ui-neral cjucstion whether the e\ ideiice upon which vou ha\e fiM'iiied your opinion is not consistent w ith a skilful fraud ? .\. It inin'ht he possihle, t!ieie iiiiiiht lie such an understandiiiL;', lait it is not niv opinion. (,). It may he that it is consistent with a skilful fraud ? .\. Ther tliis case that ( ,ii pro\'e that there was frauil. c IS no e\ Kleiice in (j). |)o vou .s;u the evidence is inconsistent with a skilful fraud? A. When I h tl le prisoner under my care . . . (,). I am ask in;;' you aliout the fact in evidence on which vou found v -A. In the mental condition of the prisoner, I think in' is not . . . our opinion i). That is not an answer at all. ('an you i:ive mean answer ? A. Put the (piest ion in allot her wav. (,). If yo.i cannot answer it in Kn;L,dish or Kreiich, I iiiav as well let vou "'(), vou can u'o. l)i!. l>.\N!i;i. Ci.AUK, sworn, exaii lined hy .Mr. Fitzpatrick C^. You heloiiif to Toronto, do you not .'' — A. I do. Q. What is your position there. Doctor?— A, A superintendant of the Toronli Lunatic Asylum. not (li> tlif last •on caiiH" til in till' tiitfil lif tliat li.' l.c al. y tlic \> -\. Not iiisa iiit V. skIit hiiii A. T. •lllisiNtcIlt iiiinat iiiii. ui.l? A. -ision that viui ha\i' iiossililc. \ ulcncc 111 ■11 I liad (11)1111011 (|lU'KtlOll 11 i>-o, villi n'oiit' I -2!! (^. Have you liail any cxiiciiriicc in tlic t rcatniciit of t lie insane?-— A. A small cxj) vicncc (i>. Liiiiitcd to iiow many yens, I )oct >!• ? - A. Iictwccii nine and ten years. <^. lias it lieeii your fate lo atteml oecasionally as exju>rt in eases ot' hi A. Yes, \-er\' ot'teli. nac\ O. Have liiiii three times, f ,-oii hail oeiMMon to exani'iie this [iiisoner here a t the bar?— A. I examined wiee yesterday and oiu'e tills i.ioriiiny;. <}. I>i(l yK then of course there is no other coii'/lusion ihat anv rea.sonaMe man could come lo. from m\' staiid-iioint. of course, that that man who held i hesr \ icw and did these tliim's must certainU' he of insai le mini (}. ho you consider, |)oct,ir, that a person sutleriiiL;' from such unsoundness of mind as you siy that this man is sutVeriiiL;' from, is capaMe of knowimi tlie nature i/f the acts which they do ? - .\. W h \ . t lie insane understand, many of them, the n at u re of t he acts which tlie\' do, except in deiueiitia cases, and melancholia, and cases of mania e\cii, tliev often know what tlie\' do. and can tell mewhai thev did, tell all ahout it aft erwards. It is all iiCiiisense to talk aliniit a man not knowing what he is doiiiL;-. sini] >lv 1 lecause lie IS insane U. 1) o you think that man was, in the circumstances detailed hy the dili'ereiit an it- ncsses, in a |iosition to he ahle to say or lie aide to judi;e of what he was doiii!.;-, as either w ronij' or contrar\' to law .V. W-il. Ihat <1 it Is one 111 the leL;al met a 1 ill vsica I d isLi net ions in rej;ard to riulii and w rom;', and it is a daimcrous one, sim[ily iK'cause it coscrs only jiart of the I riilh i could convince any lawyer if they wili come to Toronto Asylum, in half an hour, ilial dn/ciis in ihai iusiitntion kimw rii;ht and w roiij,;'. hoih in alistract and in concrete, and vet are undouiitedU- insane The distinct ion of ri;i|it and w rout CI )\ers part of the truth. It covers the lariz'est part of the iriitli, hut the laru'c minority if insane :iiipw I'luht ti'oiii ■ riiiiL.''. It Is iioietlie particular acts,J)oet()r ! — A. Well. to (iuot(> the particular acts, J jiresunio, if vol! were to ask him lo deline what is riylit and what is wroiii:', he ciaild possihly !j:i\e vou a ^ood ( letinitioii. as far as 1 could jud^e from my examination of liin (^1. Was he in a posit ion t o he a Me to say at t hat t i me, and toa,ct at that t inie as an or- diiiarv sane man would have done .v. Assiiminii; the e\ ideiice yiv en h\' the witliesse: he did not act as a sane man would have done, for this reas(Ui. that no sane man would have iiiiaiiined that he could come in around him such a force as would ei to tl le Saskatchewan, and that lie could natluM' it could lie divided up into seven ( lahle Ilim to lieconie monarch of this country, 'i'liat ll\ isi(uis, i^ivinucach to a dili'ereiit nationality, lie was not an ittawa. lie |:^o had Ijecu in tlic I'liitcd StiUc>, ai 1(1 lie Knew all alpoiit tlir ]M(\vrr of Britain and tli DoniiniDU. And tnr iuiii tn iiiianiiK' tiiat lie (•i)uld conic here and raise a few Ifalt'- brccds in tlic Saskcti-licwau and isc(')i up a succcs.sful warfare, and di\ idc the country into si'Ncn di\isions am man, witli an ordinary undcrstandini;. would c\ cr thin 1 with dili'crcnt nationalities, was ccrtaiidv not a thinn' tliat a Ik nc could succeed in. O. So tliat voti think at that time he was certainly insane and of unsound nnnd ? — A. A^ sunnii'f the statement mad think so. we! (l To he true .'-A. Ves. (i|. Yon tal--. into consideration of course in tliis o]iiiuion. all the eyidenee giyen as liy tile doctors as iiv the other witnesses? — A. Yes, 1 assume of course as 1 said hcf ore that not oiih' the e\ iden cc li'ivcn is correct, hut that he was not a deceiyer. 1 iiiiuht sav : if tlie court will allow me. that w hen I come to cases of this kind, I am not suh- iiteiued for one side more than aiiothi'r. I am here only suhjxeiued to yi\e a sort medical opinion, and therefore J stand in that capacity, of Mr. .lustice IJichard: on. That is well understoo l)r (;larl V,\ Mr. Osi.Ki;. Q. ThiMi, Doctor, he would know the nature and ([Uality of the act that he ^yas c( mittinn? -.V. lie would know the nature and (piality of the act he ^yas committiiu suljject to his delusions. assumiiiL: them to he such. Mil- Q. 11 e wiiu Id k iiow the nature and iiualitN" of the act he was commit t ini; and he woiuil know It IV was wron A. If ii w as wroni;' liaseil upon his d elusion, W's. Q. A nd I lie tacts ar IIIL -A. Yes. I think so. I tl e (|!iite coinpatihle with a skilful shanimint;- by the malinger" link that no one, at least 1 say for myself of course, that in a cursory examination of a man of this kind who has a -^uod d(\il of cunniii!.;', ^\ ho is I'ducated, that it is impossihle for any man to stat(^ on tln'ee examinations w hetlier he is a deceiver or not. I re([uire to have that man under my super^ ision foi' months, to watch him dav liy day before 1 could sa\' whether lit- is a sham or not. Q. Mouths under your supers ision t o say ^^'iH ther he is a sjiam or not / - A. Y es. (.). And ieall\ihe only grounds upon which you w(juld form an opinion as to his insanity is the cominission oi tlie criim A. X. o, not the commission ot tlie crime. 1 f orm an opinion of his insanity from the statements made by the witnesses, lioth anterior to the crime ;ind since that time. Q. Hut you told the court and iur\- just now (hat what struck \oti was the insane idea of seekin;;' to take possession of the counti'y and di\ iile it into ])royinces ?— A. Yes that is one ide Q. lat ;,'a\c you the y'reati^st idea ot his in anity?-A. < )ne, and then the other on e vvas he was. a Roman Catholic and anionu' Iloman ('atholic people, a iiioiil;' peojile attached to their priests, and he went anions that ]ieoplc endeayonriiiy to conciliate th as he sujuiosed in order to net them educated up in any schemes he had in yiew. yet he yoes to wfiric and says at oiici". '■ 1 want to depose tli<' Pope ". em And .ft (i- Hut did you notice also this, that he ^c'.s t]i(> people to follow him ? — x\. Some or them do ti>. \'es, but he y-ot the peojile to follow liini w itli their u'uiis ? — A. They followed iim on another liasis. Q,. They elei-tcil him I roiihet -A. Y. ■s, and he ti old me this niorniim' he was a Pro pliet and he knew the jury would ac(piit him because he knew what was comiiii;- before- Hand Q. Tin n, . Well I don't want tlie re; isdii heyond youi' o|pini( )n ; A AV It IS not con- sistent (,) It is not consistent liowmcr witli fraud .' — A. (,'onsistent with fi'aud i Y( mvtliini;' is consistent with fraud that is not disi'o\ei('d (,). Vou cannot say that it is not fraud ? — A. Xo I cannot. . And thcrr- i:, nmiiinL;' liere to show you in ih(> state of liir, intellect that he was not alile to nsiliilities of tlie insane. lie is a most jn'oininent man in iMm'lan Q. lie lu'iie.;s in, and I lie doctiii s have a (endency to iiriiii;- in as irres|ion,--ili|e a \ cry h laru'er cla>^^ iliaii I lie courts and lawyers? — A. I think' not, 1 think of late vears mm sucli men as MaiidslcN'. lUii'liiiell and Scliuch, iVrc, and sonic of these recent iii\esti''at(n's n an to the idea that insaiiit' y jirr sr ( loiis not ahsolve from resjionsihility, you haxc to iks ? -A N o, \-ou I'annot sav. or crank-;, iiec, iiiallv a peculi era Ilk IS a iiiaii w ho is nor- take each case on its own merits. (,). riiei'c is a larije class of insane leojih" or crai rase a crank is a diU'ereiit niH.i altoi^ctlier. ir man from liis hirtli upwards. An insane man is a man that has he- come so out of usual coniluct, from disinise. Q I did not bracket them touethrr, I put them in the alternative ? — A. You said "or cranks, " I t!iout;iit you meavt lunatic eijual crank. '\ I put them as I'ominn' to each otlu-r's liorder line? — A. 1 thought you had an ('([uatioii. (). rt is so that a larn'c luunlier, then I should say, of insane persons ought to he rcs- iic that ire ponsihle to the law .'—A. There are soi t>|. Kor thev know right from .ron,!; and know the nature and (jiiality of the act thev perforin '. .\. When \ speak aliout resjxuisaliility it is said the court should decider e exaiuincd in chief l)ut on cros cxaiiiination we have a Q. That is wliei 1 vou ai ?— A. Y es. little more JiUerty ? A. 1 see. (). You lia\-e heen an ex|>ert witness in criminal casei (). How fitM|ueiitlv ? A. "Well r don't know, periia|is !» of 10 times, perhajis more. 1 don't reineinher cxactiv the iiumher. Iie-examiiic( hy M I!. I'lr/.rAiiMCK. (). You said a moment ago that the conduct of this man might lie consistent with the eondiict for instance of such men as Smith and Young, and you were ahout to make distinction hetween the two and you were stoppiul .'--A. Oh! Smith and Young were reli- liev carried out cimsistcntly their systiMii. Ff you leail Hrighani 1 Mahomet's Koran if you like, or if you read any of tliosi^ ivlio are religious entliousiasts you will lind that coiisistently 'lous ai id eiitii.aisiasts, t Young's lijlile or if you rea books issued by those men ' with coMimnn sciis(> tln-v liavc tiict Jind (liscictioii to cari'V on succossfullv till tiic i'ud of tiicir li\t's without iiiliTinis^iou, ii siu'cesst'iil ciusjulc of this kind, and their hooks contain suHifirnt consist imu'V throuuhoiit to show you that those men weie sound in ndnd as much as nature jiroxided them with sound mind. That is the diU'ercnce. ( ). Do vou tind anvthiim' of that kind in the [iresent case ? \. Xo, 1 don't think lit^ would make a V(>rv ,uood liriu'liam Youni;', nv El .Mahdi. (). You say that he is (|uite capalile of distiii^'uisliin^ right from wrong sidijectto his delusions ? — A.. Subject iiis pariicular delusion, ves. .Mi{. Lkmikux. — This closes our detence, y.mr Honor. Mi{. RoHlNsox. — Wt Jia\t' some witnessi u r"''Uttal. J)i!. .Iamkns W'ali.ack. sworn. U. Dr. Wliat is \ln\ r po>i examined by .Mr < Kler. tion .' -A. J am medical superintendent of the asylum for the insane at Hamilton, ()ut;irio 000. Q. An institution hnviiig how many jiatients on the iiverage ? — J \ . Sonn'w here o\ cr (,). Ifow long have you been making a bi'anch, a specialty of the insane, of the study f the insane '. -.\. I ha\e been in charge of that asylum nearly '.(years, but 1 have b(H'ii o studvinir insani tv for a U^w vears more than that. Q. For \i\oir than D years —A. Y( (^>. .Vnd vou see every \arit'ty of it. I suppo.-e -A. All shades and varietie Q. Now, did \'OU ( levote vourself to the medical l)ranch of it ? -A. Kntirelv. ou Have nothing to do with keopiug the hotel or boarding house? — .\. Well, I ha\e the general superintendence of the house, but [ (k'vote m^arly all my time to tlitf medical department of the asylum. (j). Have \ou been listening to the tnidence in this case? — A. Yes. Q. Ha\e you examined or had an oj>j)ortunity of seeing the [»risouer ? A. 1 saw Inm foi' about half-an hnm'. th;it i> alone, not in roui't. Q. And vou hax'c been here during the ? A. During the sitting of tin ■ourt. Q. Have you formed an ojiinion of his numtal responsibility, of his sanity insanity? — A. I iuive, so far as my tnne and opportunities enabled me to do so. Q. What is your opinion? — A. I indication of insanitv. or iiaxc not discovered any msamtv aoout him, no ( ). What w(aild vou say then in view of the evidcMice and your examination ; is he of sound m;!"l oi- ls he not? — .v. [ think he is of sound mind acutely Q. And capable of distinguishing I'iglit from wrong? A. I think so. Q. .\nd know the nature and (juality of any act which he would commit ? — A. Yery Cross-examined by M K. KlTZl'ATKR'K. (^). You ha\c no doubt whate\-er in your mind, from the examination you liave made of this man during half an hour and from the evidence which you heard here, that he is of perfectly sound mind ?- -A. Well, I should (jualify, tliatis I should (pialify my answer to thai: (piestirai. I have had only a limited examination of him and in any case of ob.soure i;w •monifil disease, it .soinetinicK tivl tVoiii kcs a v( liJit I liave SfMMi ot" liim I sav ll'.i^t I rv liiiiu tiiiir lirt'div (.lie call make u]) tlicir mind, hut have (liscoxi'rcd no .svnn)t ptunis (it rnsanitv, Q. So tliat wiiat yon now say, Doctor, is pnrcly and sinnilv this, not that i insano, hut that you have not hccn ahlc to d is M-liat I snv, Tsav tliat I 1 le is not isco\('i-any syni|ilonis ot' insanity? A. Tliat lilA f not disco\cred it. J( would hp presumption for me t say that he is not insane from (he opiiortunities that I have had, hut at the same time my opinion is pretty fairly fixed in my mind, that he is not insmie. )U are aware that a -rciit many cases exist in which men are found to he Q. V His-,ilp|e to(hscover any trace of insanity ? — .V. ( )h ! sir, iir weeks sonastimes hefore I found any symptoms of perfectly insane, without its l.einL;- ] i hav(> had patients in my Asyhini f insanity, Q. You are awaiv also, are you not. tliut there have heen cases in JMi-land in wliicji men were examined for a whoh. day and cross-exiiniine(' \ discovered in tl that you are now in a jiosition to s:iy is that you have not discovered insanity 1— A. That is a!I lis case or an\' traces of niv con.science will allow t to say <^ ^ ou have heard of that parHcular form of mental disease known as magahjmania ])rohal>ly .' — A. V es. (i. Would you tell mo what ai'e tin- symptoms which are the characteristic of this disease? -~ A. That is a simple complic:ttion. 'I'hat is a term wliicl and 1 think it is only used 1 1 IS scarcely (ner u tl sed >y one writer. I don't rememher any other who uses it in le hnglish laiiyaiaw' and lie simoiv introduces it and say: U. I )iit one \v ritor uses that name ? A. Only one that i can think of at the present time in the JMiylish lani;uai>-e and he says that it is a delusions, iirandiose delusions, di condition in which the patient has with that foi'in of insanity lusions of !,o'eatness and most commonly complicated called paralytic insaiiily or u,-eiitle paralysis. Q. lou are aware that this p-n ciilar form of insaiiitv is cli;iracterised aiiiony' otl thiiiLjs hy extreme irritahility on th part of the pati(>nt .' — A. Not iniania simjily applies to i;'raiidioM' ideas, it can have no other detinition than that. ler iiiaLiaiomania, maffii- n, are ilelusions,' they are delusioi s such as and thes(> definitions allow me to explai jierson holding;- and lielicN iiii;- himself to be a kiiii;- or possessed of immense wealth, and that all the world is at his feet. These are the kind of delusions that are meant hy niai;'aloiii!iiiia as 1 uiidersiand them, and it has not any orliei' huaniui Q. The (hdiisions are that he is rich '. — A. ^'es, that I know of. '}■ Q. And powerful ? — A. Yes. Q. A great geiK^ral ? A. Yes. Q. A ii'reat minister? — A. lie may he a :j;reat anythinif and e\ crvthinu-. Q A great [irophet ? -A. Yes. O Ordi \ inel\' ins t^U'otist and seltish man. '--A. Y [tired, or that ho is a poet or a musician, iirfact that he is an (.^. Ihit you are ^'()ll luivc liriud of ;i li(M)k written iuid pulilislird liy |)ai;uiist, a Frciicli writer.' — A. I have lieard ot' it lm( I liave never rea(i '.^ (j). lie i'^ an autlidriif i'e|)iite, is lie n()t ? — -A, T think so, l)iit T don't read nuieli Freneli. (). Would vou allow rue to icad to yon wliat this autlioi' says. Talkini;- of inai;alo- niania. he says: "What ehai'act crises this ))ai'tieular fi>rni of mental alienation is exai,'- irerat ion of the sentiment of ]iersonality ■'; expansive passions, he .says, is one of the eonse(|iienees of it. He says, monomaiiiaes are hap]iy. satistied with themselves, and .s])pak without a limit of tlieii' own jiersonality. Now heic is the part I speak to you aliout, the individual is suseepl i Me, irritaMe, hv is seized with sudden fury when he is at anv time ojiposed in his idea... ?- A. Well isn't that speaking' of ;;entle paralysis, tJie insanity of gentle paralysis. Q. It is under the head of magalom;inia, with the jilates showiuL; the dilVerent eha- I'aeters ? — A. 1 understiuid that, lait tlieic are a vastly large numl:er of manias, puer- peromania and all that sort of thing. Q. Would vou keep to magalomania, that is what we now I'efei' to, that is what the book refers to and w hat .1 refei' to ? - A. I stated that magalomania was one of the eoni- plieations or symptoms of paralytie insanity, and that that you read, of eourse is one of the aeeomi)animents of the jiaralytic insanity toilitv ;iih! all that you stated, tiiey are always found in eonneetion with each other. i}. Ai:'.'. vou now- sa\' that ii'iit.thility is one of the eliaraeteristics of magalomania ? — A. No, I don't : magalomania. as far as I understa!id it, is one of the eomjilieations of the paralytie insanity and the irritaliility is also another symptom of paralytie insanity. Q. We will just narrow the facts down to exactly what we have in evideni'e, that extreme irritaliility is one of the charactei'istics of tiiis magalomania ? A. Sim}ily.. . . (). And the liooks shows, that I now hold in my hand, that it is one of the charac- teristics ? — A. 1 think we do not understand each othei'. (.^. 1 am waiting for liglit ? — A. I have stated that magalomania is a symptom connnonly. found in jtaralytic insanity, irritaliility and those otiier symptoms are also symptoms found in the same dis(-ase. Q. So that us. (^1. So that now, I)octor, y(ju are of ojjinion that the idea of grandeur and of jiovver is not to he found anywhere, exeei)t in cases of paralytic insanity ? — A O! yes, we tind it in sim]ile m;inia. We '' d it in simple mania, hut these are fixed delusions and jiersons who hold them say they helieve themselves to he kings or ipieens, or gri'at leaders, or wealthy iieople. 'J'hey may he great in any thing, and great in every thing and they actually helieve this and they act upon their lielief, constantly act upon their helit-f. Q. Did [ understand vou to sav. Doctor, that the idea of ''randem- is exclusively a symptom of paralytie insanity, tiiat that is not to be met in other eases ? — A. No, I have just stated now that you will tind delusiftns. Q. Is it not a fact that in (-ases of magalomania one of tlie chai-ai'teristics of maga- lomania. one of the very essential cliaracteristics of magalomania isthat the individual who sutlers from that jiartieular form of mental disease is able in a very large measure to hide the disease from any per.son wlio endeavimrs to tind it out? — A. Well, insane jier.sons are able as I said liefore to conceal their delusions, sometimes for a length of time, but a per- 135 son sutfcrin:;' tV(jiii iiiiiuuloiuauia doos not lUttiinit to ilu it, lif i^ tou prnud to oximsL' 1 (lelusious ua <^ S(j tliiit oiu; of the cliiiraetcrist irs of it is piidr ? A, Yfs. il Is tlicro ii case ill wliich a man. t'nr instance, would lie under tlic in^anr delu- sion that lie was destined to till a -ivat missidii. that he was in a positimi to take posses- sioii of a ureat eouiiti-v sucli as this one is, wnuKI imr tiiat man he in a position tf) take siieli nii'ans as would he neiessiu'v to anise at his ends and to take those means with a uivat amount of shfewdness and |.recaiitioii .' A. Thai is i|iiite inconsistent w i nv idea of iiia^-: 'oniaiiia. As 1 said hefore. my idea of mau'idomania is, a> detiiied l>y (,'loiist<)ii, for instance, tliat tiiat man is alci^adv in possession of all these tliinusaiid lii'\loes no( want any more. (^». So that yoiiv idea is 1 »r that a iiiin that is siiti;.riu- from this particular disease is not in position and it is utierly impossil.le for him to take any steps to arrive at tho eoiu'lusion which he pretends 111' ouuht to arrixe at .' A. ( » \es : (<: he does not recpiire any plans at all, e\cry thin,:;' flows into hin,, he is the greatest man in the world and e\cry thiiiu' is suhsers lent to him, wealth comes to him he does not want and lie can command e\ery liody and they will oKcv him. <^. So that he does not make any calculations at all uid does not adopt anv means at all to arrive at his ends ? — A. Xot at all. (}. \t is one of the cha rarterist ii's of the malady that he is iinahle to do that .' — A. Not uiialile.hecause h- does not have todoit, he is so self-possesse(l and so self-contented. (). Xow i)r, will you jtist read tlii.s little hook a^ain on that suhject. (it is so much the more dangerous that he still retains the necessary facultv to lie aide to mak" calcula- tions that are necessary to arrive i.t his ends .' i--^.V. lUit is that speakiiii;- of •.nayaloma- nia i (.^ ruder the chapter and title '• Ma^'alomania .' "- A. Well, would you allow to i[Uote from (.'louston, he is speakini;- of mental depression and he savs there are few cases of depressed feelini;' with exalted intellectua 1 conditioii. M anv persons exai;'i;'erate their former notions of wealth and pc -it ion hy way of contrast with their present mis \-y. 1 had a woman in excited melancholy ^roiiiiinn' all the time and then considered herself a <|ueen and another a kin^-. and of imiiiense wealth. Souk- cases are of the nature of what the French call maii-alomania. that is. e\piinsi\e grandiose exalted state of mind, wliich as a mental symptom, is hest seen ni i,'entle paralysis coupled with ideas of perse- cution, and with depressed feelim;-s esptnaally at times. (}. I )o you think there is anythinu- in what you have read there that is inconsistent with what I lui\e read to you. that contradicts that .'--A. Well, there is nothing that contra(ii(.-ts it, hut f say that iiiai;-aloiiiania is (■i. That is simiily an interpretation of what this hook has said here .' — A. Well, we are not \(irv far a[iart : we are only apart this far, that you wish to contend for niagalo- niaiiia as a disease, while 1 t'outend that it is only a symptom. Q. W^e are not talkinn' ahout symproms of dist'ascs at all. I ask \ou. was that oik; of the symptoms of niayahmiania and you said it did not exist in a case, and the liook says that it does ? — A. You are not doing' me justice. Q. 1 don't mean to do you an injustice. I don't .mean to adopt an\' l)ull\-iiig process, it is not my hahit, and [ don't do it. 1 don't pretend to set my knowledge against yours in a matter of this kind, you aie free to explain it. This magalomania was called formerly intellectual monomania, was it not ? A. Yes it is a moiioniania. Q. It came under that general class of cases formerly .'--A. Yes. (,}. Now, one of the symptoms of that malady -you ha\e heard of a hook written liv Duc'.'lle ! —A. No. 1 nexer heard of that. <^) ^'oii don't kiiDw Ic :,'riiiiil I )ucfllf, tlic l'"r('iii.h aiulinr .' A. N.i, J don t Uik l\V tile Imok '.) Y on lu'Ni-r lifjird of a liook ot' t liat k ind ; iit ill! <'\rn ts. I cannot |int ll audioiity in csidcncc, iis you ilon't know it, Inii I niiL;lit ask you, tor inslanrc, wlicthcr oi' not in tiiiil- ii.irl icular form of discusc which I li.i\c s|pokcii to yon iiliont. tliat is, inli'llcct u.il niononiiinia, (hat insane persons ticlicNc ihcy :iyi- in constant intcrconi'sc wjtli (Io(|, iind thc\' liclicNc I hcnisclvcs to he inspiicd, and helie\e th"nisel\e.s to lie prophets, ;tnd their iiallurinations iire sueli that they supjiose they nre in constant inteicoiirse with a .Siiprenie licmi A. Vcs, I ha\.. k noun |i;it lent >, ot t hat k ind 1^) 1 1 i\- ' \ . m i'\ cr invird of (( Ii\ inu' t In' nann' of .iiiotln'r l''rcindi author) ?- A. (Ion I \\.i\ It to hear of an\- p'rench autlnn's, I ne\'ei' read them. (j) ^'ou iicNcr^'ot tliat far,' A Xi (^. I'crsons sull'erinL;' fr'om delusions of i;randeur are |ierfeclly harmlcs.s as a r 11 le, arc they not .' .V. ,\o, as a rule, they ar<' not, not always, they sometimes are and soin(u 1 ihii's t hey a re not , <^> In (Mses in which they would lie hai'inless, would yo>i ])ut two of tJufsn pcojile in the sauH' ward.' .V. I nc\cr put two loiicther anywheic, I nescr put two lunatics (oi;-ci IcT an\-vvh"i'i In-y ai'c always Ke| eiit eit her one, or moii> t han two. (.). Won uld you put more than two to'^ether A. V (,). W'ithout any impropi'iety whatcNcr .' — A. V'es, our huildin^s are put u]) with vn'w to ( lial ut is it fixed or intcianittcnt .' \. In those cases ihey ;iii- lixed. \>. So that when a person has taken herself for a ([ueeii, she remains a (jueen ,' — A. She asaaljy dies a ijueen. . In her own idc.i .' .\. Yes. (i>. .\n 1 she is a (|ueen to cvei'v ho ly to wlmm sic t.ilks '.' — .\ . Yes. ii> Not sonietinu's a oueen an.i some(inn's otherwise ? — A. Xo. |)i;. .) IK i;s sworn, examim'd oy .Mr. lioiiinson. <). Ynw area! pi'esent the medical oliiccr a.l taclied to the mounted jmlice force ? — A. I am (he senior snr^'con of the mounted police. . .Vnd how liiiiL;- ha\-e you lieeii in medical |UMctice ? — .\. Thirty tixc ve:irs. tj) llr.c you dcsored your attontioii to insanity at all sp(Maally, oi- not ? -A. Never specially, there irc cis-s of cnurse which •asiomilly will come unrler the notice of (Mory g(»nei'al practitioner, lm( as a, special study I have ncNcr doni' so. (.j>. I''\'cry medical practitioner, 1 su])poNC. has his attention more or hiss directed to it ? — .\. Occasiondly I have Keen i;alled upon to cci'tiliy in cases of insanity. \-'u <,ii to tlir j.iil li.iv I ;iiii l(,l(| ' A. At |p|csriit uiilil ;i j.iil lias ' II o iiisMiK- .' A. Yes, I iviimmiiIh'I- diiiiii-;- tlic last few years a miini.er of persons lit' Ulisoillld mind lia\e lieell sent tlier.'asa plaee ot' coiilin.'iMenl . <.^. And ill this way they lia\e come under your (il)sei\alion .' A. 'i'liev Iia\ee iiiKU'i' mv ol)sei\ atioii tor the tin . \'oii know (he prisoner. I l,e|i(.\ e .'— A. ^' <■>. I low |on^■ ha \ e \(ill l. Since thai time how ot'ien h l\e \oU seen him .'—.V. I have seen liiiii almost evi'i'v day. 'i'liere ha\ e 1 n oneoriwn or periiaps three days that I lia\e missed seini,' him, owiiiLf to pressure ot other iMi^iness, other work at tliat time, i.ul I have seen him uiiit'ormlv escrv dav. (t>. As a rule, you h:i\e seen him every day, altliouL;ii you lia\e missed or four ihns during;' that t iiiie .' A. N es. vvo or three (i Then you had an oppn't unity. I suppose, of olisei'v in;;' his mi'iital cond It ion A. J would speak to him on every occasiiui in |iasNin,i;' him, and he has generally ae(|iiaiiited me with what he conceived to lie his wants and his l|eces^^it ies. And I would examine into the <'(indilion of his physical and nciieral lieaiih, and ascertain how his diet was ay;reein;;- with him .ind thinnsof that kimi, such a.s come under my s[iecia,i duty. .\nd occasionally he would speak to me on other matters, occasionally he would delay me and speak to me on othei siilijccts. (). 'i'lien have you forme,! an opiniiui as to his mental state.' I am speaking' now T icn as 1 uiiMcr ^tand. vou lu'liev e him to li .\. I lieliev e him I o lie sane so far as my knowledn'e of siii'li matter uoes. I h.veseen mil liiii;^' to induce me to liclieve otJierwise. Q. I. su|ipose you ha VI' h i(| vour at tent ion directed to t h at pa rt of his character nioi"(> or less, [ mean t'l hi^ mental condition, more or less? -A No. I have never seei aiiy- thiu'j; to make nie (piestion his mental eonditiou, and therefore I have never led tin coii- \ersatioii under any circumstances to di'aw out any possilile insane notion. I havo never made iuiv t liort to (h I so, liccaus e mv ( lutv was otlierwiNC (). What I mean is. I >oc|or. V( )U Have 111 that there was an assertion of tlie unsoundness of his miiu card, I supp. Vini iicMr iiiadf any siicciai cndcinoiii' to di „(i\fr u ln'tlii'r or not lie was sull'criuy tVoiH any |i;irticular I'orni ot' nn'nlal disciisc ? A, Nt'VtT lUiy sjici-ial (Midciisoiir, iinytliiiiy licsond ofilinary cian ri'sai ion ol' the day. (J. I> il not a t'acl tln-rt- ai'c dil rent t'orins of insanity n\ liicli ai-o not discovcniltlt' i'\c('|it after I'onsidfi'aliii' mdravonrs lias liccn niadt' to discoNci' tln'ni .' .\. ^ I's, it is so, uni|ii('stioinil>ly. that you may (dn\ ersc witlithi' iniiii contiMUaliy and not 1m' aw arc of Ids insanity until yon touch accidentally, or some other person touches accidentally u|pon the lioini upon which he is insane, (). ad \(>ii lieen informed at an\' time of the iiarlicular mental disease from win Mr. ifiel wu s sU|)l)os( d to I la \ e iieen su m-rin A. I don t I Inn ever Knew as much of il .1.-- 1 ha V e leained here. <> Suihatvou never made anv endeinour to. ? .\. i never did, that is, I never ike to II im spcciallv with rei^ard to vvhat lelieved to lie his mission, knowuiir that many very -ane men mii;ht lie so ,ind yet a man ndulit he |iei'fi'c'tly .siiiuv <}. So that you have no doulil at all, |)nctor, from the evidence that you heard here j;i.'eii liy the dillerent witnesses who were examined, the conduct of Mr. Iiiel is [lerfectly coiiijiatilile with a perfectly sound mind .' — \. Well, I regret to say that my hearing' is I'ather imperfeci in the court room and that I have not Keen aiile to hear as well as I M could w isl the translations that were made of the 'xaminatioiis in l"'rencli, lait, so far MV iinderstandini' has s/one ot the evidence w dii.'l I has he, 11 ;jiveii. a.s I liav e iieard not hiii" that would sati^tv me thai he was of unsoiiii•. That is not the opinion you entertain ? .\. Certainly not. <>|. So that if a man is laliorinu; nndei- an insane (U-lusion. the acts whioli lie does while lie IS uiid(>r that insane delusioii, t/idKnl the piirticular delusion, he his not respon- silile for '. -\ If a man is clearly. . . . if it can We proved that a man is aetiii:;- under an insane delusion, then any act \ should consider whicli he performed under the delusion, any act having,' special relation to his delusion. I should consifh-r that he was not person Italy i-espon^ihle for. if it could lie sliown clearly tliat that delusion was an insane one, and that it was not leather a feigned one for a ]iurpose. (}. So tliat if it can lie jirovcn that a man is lalioui-in;^' under an insane delusion, that he was in c(,mmunication with the FfolyCihost and was actiny; under the direct ins- pimtion of (lod, and he was liound to do a certain act, and he did it, would lie be respon- sihle for that act ? -.\. N'iews on suliject of that kind are so difl'ereiit even among those who iire confessedly sane, that it is hardly one on which I could Imse an opinion. There MV.) arc' inrii wIiK li;i\c lichl \('iT iviiiiiikiilili- views witli respect Id I'rliifidii iiikI w Ik. Iiuvc always lieen (leclaieil to lie insane iinlil tiiey yatliered 1 1 (yd her ureal nnmliers nf t'ollowers and lieeaine leaders ot' a new sect, then thi'V liecdnie irreal |irii|ihets ami ]i,'roal men, ll is extiMMiiely diHiciilt to lell how t'ar a dehisinn ot' ihal kind mav lie-in as a direct alleni|)l, at t'raiid and may ai last m) take [Hissession ot' a mans mind that he may li<'lieve hiinselt' di\inely iiis|(ircd j ihink that cases of thai kiial cnidd he |in)- iIucimI and it would depend \ cry mncli n|i(ai ihc menial cnndil ion of a, man w hethcf he was rcspoiisihle ; It" it could lie shou n thai he was clearly insane, he is clearlv irrespon- sihlc on that [loinl . Thai would he my ow n \ iew . (). So that it' il I'an he clearly shown ihat he was laKorin^ under .1 delusion, tliat he was (li\inely inspired, ilirectly t'roniOod. you lhiid< 1 his a<'tions .' A. liesponsiMe for what .' le \\(jUI(| no I he resptisilile for (,;. Kesponsilde for his actions in connection with ihe delusion of course What actions would they he i Such acti ons as w hat (). Such actions as he nny'lit do for the pur]iose of carryinu out his insane deliis A. Well, lake Mahomet for inst (1 few heliesed wilii him e\cn of Uice That wasexacllv .Mahomet's laliof : he I 1011 ieMe\ e( lis own people that he was (li\inely inspired, lait he acti'd on his helief and he carried his whole helief with him. lie lieliescd aial he carried it out at the point of tln^ sword aial with lie w hole world, and he con\ inccd the peo]i|e of what, if he had failed, would have hccn .simpl\ I'c^arded as a delusion in his own miial. <^). So that y(Ui think thecondin'l of .Mr. Kiel perfectly com]ial ihle with ihecoiuliict for instame of a man like .Mahona't, or a man like Smith or u nam like "N' ouil A. N( I don't rcL^ard . . . . so far as I understand t hem. M !■. iiiel's \ lews in that liylit. .Ms- opinion is rath'T in re^jard to Mr. Kiel, if yon will allow me To say it, as far as I ha\e ■en alile to JMl^-e from my own jiersonal know leil^e. that he is a man of i,'reat irewdnessand vcrv ufcat depth, and that he iniLiht ch k now lU!.'' the i^rea I inll uence w liu'ii he e.\ercised over these | pie who have a much nitia'air e(Un'atioii to his own, that re^'ai'dcd him in the liiiht almost of a saviour I have thoiiuhi tliat he miyht have assumed for tiie pui-jiose of niaiiitainiiiy his inlluence with them, mure tiiaii he reall\' l)elie\e( (}. That is your imj)ression, hoclor? -A. I ha\e tliou^ht that it miyht he so. I don't think it is. f(U' I ha\(' nescr iieard him speak lui tlu' suhjcit. 1 ]\ii\{- iie\-cr lieard him siH'ak Oil that suhject, and I gather that knowled'^e oidy from a y'enoral kno\\ leduc 'if wdiat has taken [)la,ce, ami .Mr. Kiel, hut never on that suhject. from pers(nial knowledge which I acipiired in spcakinu' with <^. And of course riiat know Icdi^e is also has'd upon a very imperfect hearing' nf the t^videiua' .' A. On thi;' evidence to day. it is not Ijased I had a \cry imperfi'ct hearin;:' of the e\ idence of to-day. I am speakinn' only of tlie gerioral judgement I formed in my own uund, entii'cly ajiai't from the e\ idence as L;'i\cn in this room : that is what I sjiealc of. Q. That Is entirely outside of what you have lieard here ?- A. Yes, not, let me nliser\"e. contrary to wlnit I ha\c heard, thoui^h it may he contrai'V to what I lunc not iieai'd. }. So that, now. Doctor, you ;ii'e perfectly aware, areyou not. that insane men hiixe c.xhi.iited very ^reat shi'cwdness in sonu' icsjiects? — A. ^ es. Q. Xow, are you in a position to say. Doctor, on your oath that this man hero is not insane? - A. lain in a position to say that after a very considerable amount of conNcrsa- tion with him, and daily communication with him, I have never spoken to him on a single yuljject on which he lias spoken irrationally. Q. And you have never spoken to him on the particular subjects with reference to which he is supposed to ha\(! his delusions? — A. Name the subject. I M) i). Hii ri'linioii. imil nn ln's missidii widi ri't'iTi'iiff tn tlic N'nrtli W'rst Ti-ritorioH ? — A. I IlllXf llCNtT S|in|. M r. ' N|,i;ii. We iiiiiv. \ unv I Iniuir. Im' iiMc In slioiti'ii oiii' t'\ idciicr in rc|il_v, it' ii W'Mllil I >li\r|iii-lil Id luljiiuril Imw (l''i\i' ]'. M.) It is illlJiKhsilpIc In clnsf tllc case t.i iii.ijlil, iiiiil ii w'ciiiiil III' ;i iiiiMIrr (it' I'lijiv I'liiriii'c it' vmir IIhikH' wiMild ainiini imw. Mr. Lniiii'iix. W'c ii;iri'c it your llnimr cousciils Id il. W'f (Inn't wdiit ti» lie l'l'S|HI|lsillll'. ( 'iiiirt li.Tc adiuuriii'il till jo A. .M. T^•Lrin.■l, Ffiiliiy .iihI SMtiirday, July llic ^Ist. iind AuLTUst 1st, ISS.'t. ('\IT\I\ ll'i|,\ii:s ^'iMSi.. (i'i'imHimI) cNaiiiincd liy Mr. Kdliinsnn • i'. W'v lia\i' heard t'runi y m a-i to the |iarl yim limU in this rctieljioii luul I need nul i,M ii\ rr thai ayaiii, 'I'iie |ii'isi)nei- was in yunr ehai'i.'e t'nr a certain lime ? A. ^'es, (,). When w IS 111' y'|\ ell ill \ 1 111 !• charge ? A. < >n I he e\ eiiiiiu' nt' t he I r»i h may, v lie^^ina. Krnni the time he lirst laiiie under vouv chai'i'e till the •2'-\y(\ nt' Mav, 1 le was constanllv in vmir cli A. V <■>. I» IV anil niuht A. V '>.' 11 id vnii much cniiv (>i'sMt ini; with llilll ? A. Alinul himselt' and his cnndiict and the eii't he I IMIK III t he reii.'llinn W "^e cniivei'sed aliiiiisl cniistantK' and \er\' t'r eelv, tile re •J. I iHiii what suiiject ? .\. We cnnvfrsed mi almost e\'erv sulijei-t cniiiiei'ted witl leiiinn. (} Well then, will ynii lell US what ymi think material and nt' impnrtuiice in his c iii\er.-„ilii,ii i-i'n- ii'di'iu' the reliellimi, and his ns\ n cnnduct and the part lie took in it ? — A, Diiriiiji' the term nt eiyht or nine davs that I was ]i\ iiiy- with him eiitireh' there was :in llulilell-. ' nil. Hint nt' cnli\ ci'satinn. [ remarks may Ke a y'nod deal ramlilini,' a\e no 11 otes to help me in spealsiiiij; and my <,>. Well, tell us ? -A. 11 reteieiiee tn Duck Lake, as 1 said the oti e (lid not speak in reference to h'ish ('reel;, he spok e 111 ler (lav iil he speak in refereiUM^ to his ijeneral \ iew and tlic I'onduct of the eaiiipaii,ni — A In let'ereiice to his ^.'eiieral view, as to the eoiiduet ot" tl himselt' in il le camjiai.ijii, lie e.\]iress(Ml lis wav. that he v.as not so t'oolisli as to imatriiie that he could wauc war al;•anl^t (.'.niada and (Jre;it I'.ritaiii. But he hoped liy th(> lirst success to eoniiad the ("a- n idian (enernmciit to consider the situation or acc(^(h' to his deinaiids lie placed it 111 this Wiiy. he liiipeil to surmund and capture ]\[ainr (Jrozier's forces and with tlieiii as liDstau'cs to cmiMiel the (.'anadian < Invcrnment to cnnsider tin? situation, hut tliev failed in that. Q. Did he .say Imw he failed to capture Crozier ? — A. A luittle occurred and the I H |iuli(;c ii'l ired ; lie was at lciiijiliii'4 lis I said to .>imiimiil tin' |Milicf t'niff, Imt llitlinlil roiii- iiK'iiiril and till- |inlici> I'l-tii'ril. lir N|iitki- ill ri't't'iciii !■ Ill iithii kiii^' tlir I'liliiinii iid\iiii('iii;r 1 11 nil <,>ii'.\|iiii'iii' to llif front. He ^a id I if did in it iinayiiif li mid tiLdit llii'iiriny in flic ticld and the riMM>ii Id- did imt adi)|it ;(iii'riila wiirtarc, was that lit- lHi|ii'd Ly I'riiiainiii;: iiiiii-t tn iiidiicr the t Jrii Ta! to Mfiid ii Hiiiall t'lM'fi' iir to ciiiiif alirad w it li a >iiial I t'lircc liimscit', and In- liii|M'd tn ra|itiii'i- that small tnrcc and with tliriii iin liostii^rs tn i'niii|H'| thr t'ana diaii ( In\ crniiii'iit In itiiat ion. Tliry taili'd in that. Am' 'Inn he imnlc tilt' iiltciii|it to i'a|ilnrf tlii' ^I.Miiifi- Nort licotc. his intention liciiij; wlnn lie li.id ra|itiiird I hose on I Mia I'd to hold t hrm as liostavrrs to <'oiii|it'l t In- ( 'aiiadian I iovrrnmi'iit to consider t he sit iia( ion I |e said he did not sc\cit rommiiiiical ion w itii the lOast \>y le|ej,'ni|ih lin mise he hoped to Use the t ele','ia |i|| ulicii he ea|itiired the liost'ilj,'es, (). 'I'liose w cie ( he i.'1'iieial \ iew , he i'\ |iriv>>(Ml as to I he sit iiat ion a lid t he >s ^lem nn which he iuleiided lo cany on t he cam|iai;;n and ho|ici| of' suci ess ? I >id he talk aliMiit ieli;;ioiis matters ,' .\. I noticed that when the conversation was reachinn a |iiiiiii ihai niiichl he ot' ijrcat iin|ioiianit' and it he wished t'oi lime to an.swer or to evjoh the iinini nt' the cun\ elsal ion. he iliimedialely (llllied on religion-, liiiilters, (^». lie seemed to ii^e his views on reli^'ioiis matters in that way !- .\. | ^o renurded it. (}. I )id III' e\|iress any s|ieiial \ lew > a In ait reli'^inii w hen he did i ui n i he ion\ eisal ion ' ---A. We had a coiiM'i'sal imi on ihe sidiiect i>i i he days ot' the week and the miIiJcci of' the ret'ormed church. i). Tell IIS any \ iews he e\|il'eM'il on those slllijects ,' .\. 1 1 is \ iew s n - to lull \\,i> t hat ( lod's mei'i'\- was loo i; real to he sinned a.\ay liy any |iei'Min i Inn ml;' t he shnrl t iine he had to li\e'. he s.iid there was a jieriml ot' jiuiii. Iimeiit ami at'ter that the |iersiin would he t'ol'ni\eli. In I'et'ereiice to the ret'ormed ('lillicll a,.d the days of the week, he >:iiil that w hen I he < 'lirisi iaii ( 'Imrrh emer^-ed from |ia^anism it lp|oiii,dit .some nfihe remains of )ia;;anisin w itii it and he instanced I he days of t he week. lie wished to piii ify I {elision in ('an.ida and |iai't iciilarly in the North W'e.st, west of those iiarts. i). .\n\ III lii'i' matler .' .\. 'le es|iecially iiieiil ioncd .■dinut the infaiiiliility III' the I'ope. I do not think he referred to any other douma of the ( 'Ir.irrh e M-epl that he desired t hat till' iio\eniment of the < 'liiirch mi-lit he I ma led in ( 'ana da ; oic'e or t w ice I he ciiii\ er sat ion went hack to the days of 'I i'. la ml 'T". and he spoke in reference to .\relilii>hnp 'I'.iche as a friend who had iieen scry Ljnnd tn him and he did imt wish nie l.i iinderstan I him as saviiiu' an\ I liinu against Archliisliop Taclie. or I'lishnp riiiiir,!.;et of .Montn ,il. hecanse he felt that ilie\- were personal friends, hut he fell that he was right and e\en personal friendship would ha\e to ^i\e way. ( t. .\i'e I here aiiv other general tojiics on which you conferred with hiii, ami on which he ua\(' you any information .' \. lie talked ahout the Indians in dillerent parts of ilie ciuintrv, aiiout Irish aid from the I'liited States, ahont the hattle of liatoehe and sevcra,! incidents that occurred there. Ilespoke almiil the relicllion of '(iit and THaml ditrim;' the trip in wai^ifniis from Saskatoon to Moose .law we talked on almost e\ ei'\ circumstance and suliject. ()iieday when we camped at noon, in movini; around the camp ■/I'liiind to jilace sentries, 1 saw some Indians sitriis wliicli I destroyed. I called his atten- tion to them iind he said it was po.ssihie tliey mi;,dit have liocn left there hy a Indue of lndia,ns goiii:.;' from the Cypress Hills to help him at I'latoche. Q. Is there anytliini,' else that occurs to you. of course you cannot relate all the con- versiition, was there any other suhject uimn which you had coinersatioii that you recollect .' A. When we found the hooks and piqiers in the council room we found tlie word " Exovede". This hothered us a i^reat deal, I could not translate it at all and one of the first things that I asked the prisoner was what the meaning' of thatwas, he wrote the iiieaiiiny' of the word ill my note hook, he wrote akso the iiieaiiing of his mission in the note hook. (.}. Do vou roniemher what it was? — A. ITe said that every one had a mission, and 142 lAr^-i that his mission was to iUTOii)]ilish i)i'actical rt'sults. The iiicj'.tiiiiijf l' (he wmd ' lixovi'(h'," was lu' saiil from two latin words,.-.!' "tVom," (W/'/c "the llocl<.' Tiiat the coun- cillors were nu'nilicrs ot the flock, lie liiniscit' iirof'rsscd not (o Itc from rxoxctlc. thai there ^vas an exoNcile outside of lum with the |ii('sidcnt . (). |)oe>, anything;' else ocH'iir to yon, 1 ('out wish you i" L;i\ e all I he con\-ersation ; il vou tell us what is imiiortaiit and material, that will l)e satisfactory to nu' .'- A. Thai is all I c;mi think that will ha\ f any iiearini;- on the case, there was a^feat deal of ion versat i( a. <}. I''idm tirst to last of these coiiNcrsations with you, did you ol)ser\c anytliiiiy i arouse a sus|)icion or iiidicati- that he was of unsound mind ' A. None at all, i-ertainiy not, I found that 1 had a mind anainsL my own and fully e(|ual to it, hetter educated and much mori; (dc\ rr t han I was myself. He would stop ami e\ adi! answeriiij;' (juest ions with the lie>t possiide adsanta^e. t^. The idea of mental aherration, unsoumlness of mind, m-ver necurred to you? — A. J hclieve it was for a juirpoM', what has Ihm'Ii n'ixcn as a reason for insanit\. (,) hid he profess to you to ha\i' the Spirit of tJod or the power of prophecy .' A. No, ne\i'r to me. jly Mi; ( !uKi:\siiii:iJ)s. (^). Wiiai e.\[>ericiice ha\e you had in dcaiini;- with people of unsound mind .' A. XoiK' at all, t^) You are only sjieakim;' iinw from the conNcrs.ations you haw if I \\as li\iny- with a lunatic. (^>. hid you hear Doctor ( 'lark state that it would take t Iiree or four months to lit id oat whether a person wa- insane, in many cases I -A 1 did. Q. Do you think you are as cle\ef as thes(> (h)ctors .vIk, ha\e stated that .'- \. I thiidc, lixinn' with him as ! did, it would he (lillerent. Q. Did you hear the din'tor say it would remiire constant conversation with the person to disco\er.'— A Not constant, such intercourse as the superintendent of an as\lam would ha\"e. i). Ilaxcyou u'ot that little hook he wrot(> in? -A, The ('ouns(d for tin- Crown ha\ e it , (y ^'ou state that he tidd ymi his mission wns to product' practical results! .\ Yi'S, the exact wiu'ds are in the little note i k. Q. Vou yave him the hook and asked him to write in it ? .\. lie asked for ni\' hook t I w rite in it, so that it would ))e correct and t hat there would lie no misunder.staiul- iiiL;' alioiit it after. i). Did he tell you what the ]U'actical results of his mission was to li(> .' .\. He spoke frecjuently df (he annihilation of the Mi'tis hy tlie Hudson j'.ay company and the mounted police. 1 wanted to get at the meaning of the annihilation, hut 1 could not sm'ceed. he i'\ adeil me. tj. The pr.ieiic.il results did he explain toymi? \. H is explanat ion was that he Avanteil to ,-,a\-e the jieople of the North West from a iinihilat ion. (}. That wa^ the prai'tical result of his mission as ye gathered in conversation with him ? -A. Ho evadeil me, h<> would not eonn^ down to partieular.s. tlic Wind t tllC (•(Mill )\l'(l(', t li:il rsiiMon ; it' - A. Tlim Iciil dl' cull iiythiiiL; i L, ccflaiiilY r ('(hi'-atcd l;' (|ii('St ioiiN ) yini '! — A. iIhvv .' A. mind .' A. !■ prisoiior .' iiuiity .' A- was liviiiu mtlis to liiul .t .' A. I )ii with till' cut (it' ail (lie Cl-nWll suits?— A 'il fur my iiidrrstaiiil- ? A. Ill' ny and tin' I ciiuli! iii'l ,\as (iiat 111' -at ion wirli 143 Q. 'l»i;l he tell you anytliiiiu; as to dividini,' the Tt'ri'itorics amonu- dillVrtMit natinn/.l- itics? -A. No, till' tirst I iicard of tliat was in tlic court room. (,J, You stated tiiat he said lie was not. foolish cnoui^h to iuiauinc that hccould wa;;(< war against Kny:lan(l and < 'aiiaihi ? -A. I uskcrl him liow he expected witli 70U or MJU men to wiii>'e war against thn^e millions of ]ieo]i](\ (}. You included I'jiigland ? -A. ^'es, heing t he govei'niny; count ry (note liook handed to witness vvho reads)" 1 ha\ (> a mission, so has e\ eryhody ; for me 1. understand mv niissi^.n in this way : to lu'ing aliout practical results." <,). I understand then^ is something in your hook in refereace to the w md ••e\o\ ide" ? — A. It is lengthy. <^>. No matter, let us IniAc it? -.\. it is as follows: •• /■.cu/v r/.." from Latin word I riiri'(h\ "■ iloids," from two fyitiii words, c.r, which means. •• t'rom ."' and in-th\ "llock." That Word I made use of to cnnxcy that i was assuming no aiuln.ritN' at all .Vnd the ad \isers of the movement took also that tit le i list ea d of councillors or repre- s(>iitati\(>s ; and there jinr|ii)se in doiiiL;' so was exact ly the saim^ as mine, no assmiipt ion of authority. We consider ourseUes a part of society and near us and ot her parts nf i he saiiH^ siiciety attem])ted to rule over us improperly and hy false representations and through had mismanagement of ]>uMic all'airs were injuring us greatly, at the .same time they were ol taiiiing the ear of the ( lo\ finmenl : 'hey were turning all the pre-.-; against us, 'I'he situation was leading us simply to annihilation ! Without assuming any authoiity than that which exists hy itself in the con d it imi of our nature, wc recurred to the right of self-preser\ at ion and those who agreed t(. act together in the protcciion nf their exist(>nce, thi^'atened in so many dill'ereni ways, took the names of ( /.ic<(/.', so that liiix iiig their distinct i\e title for tht> time heing and to lie know n hy the men of tlw^ mo\ c'cnt when t lie crisis would he oxer, the reactinii would he its light as 'possilile fur t he reason tliat what would ha\ e heeii iiiultataken and accomplished under the sound authority of good sense, could lia\e no other restilt than good ones, and conscipient 1\' the movc- mont jiroved to he less a distuiliaiice than a remedy to some things which wiie pre\ i uisly going too far in the wrong. Several times it is ti'ue we made ii^e of the wiPid> rejiresen- tatives. memhers of the council hut w c had to do it until the word . .»■. nih was und< !•- stood and until it would iiegin to hecoine usual among the men of the nioxeinent. So tlio council itself is not a council and heing eom|ii)sed of "exoxcdes, we have called it " IC.xovcdate," 11kni:i{.\i, M 1 Dili, i; ton. recalled, examined hv Mr. i'ohin.son Q. (J(Mieral Middleton. \ou ha\f heen examined alreadv in thi> ca>e. on what dat did (lid vou see Kiel come into vour custodv .' .\. on the loth of .Max, I tl mil U. .Vnd how 1 oiil;' was il (.). So he was wit h vmi a hefore he left \durcamp? .V. ( 'n t he mniniii'4 of t he 1 '.tth. Iiiiost four (lavs? A. Ves, three or foui' davs. (,>. And during that time Irul ymi much conver.sation with him ,' A. No, not much. r liad more conversation with him the lirst day than any other, for I had him for the t part of tlu» (lav, in fact nearly the whole day, in my tent, until I prepared another Ill's placo for him, so that 1 reallv talked more wit', iiiiii on that day than any olher. Q. That was immediately after his ca|iture ? — A. Ves. (). Can you givi^ us anv general idea what your suhjects of conversation with li were iiiu 1 what lu' said ahout himself and his party and liis plans .'- A, Well. nil lid not- ask him much ahuut them, I I'emeniher disking him some (|ueslions similar to what Captain Young has told vou. I remendier asking Iiiiii wiiy lie conlined himself to cutting the telegraph wire onlv het ween Frog Lake or hetweeii tliat station and I'riiice AHuM't^ why lio couliiied iiimself to only removing that and not removing the other wire al) iuxni cu 144 11(1 IMC, and as near as I i-aii rciiUMulicr, his answci' was tliat he only wanted to t ort" th(i polico from Prince Albert and that he thoiiii,lit he niii,dit dei)rive them of lieiuii aMe to eommunieate with vhe rest of Canada, and tiiat he woidd )>rolial>ly want to use it himself. And then 1 asked him how he eame to think he would he aide to wa;,'c war ai^ainst Canada witli En,]. 1 to t; Ike mr prisoner, and that lie would then hav<' got hetter terms. Q Taking hostages in jioint of fact ? -A. Yes, hostages, that was iln? general \'ie\\ I think, hv means of which he would ohtain hetter terms. (^). is there anything else he said to you on the suhjcctthat you rememher?— A. No r cannot really reiiieudter anything more. Q. Did he speak to you ou religious suhjects? — -A. Yes. Q. What wer(» his views ? — A. lleoften turiU'd the con\('rsation to religious suhject.'- Jie told somi' of his \ lews. Some of them 1 lia hasc (l on uioralitv and humanitv and i-haritv. He t liked in that sense an d st\- Q. You cannot reiiiendier anything else just now that he said to you ? A. No. Q During all your intercourse with him, did you see ;iiiythiug \\ hatever to indicat( nv suspicion of unsoundness of mind in him '.-— trarv A. Xo, I cannot sav did, on tlie cou- th (}. !)iil it occur to you there was any reason (o imagine the man was not perfecth I .' -.V No. 1 should sav on the contrarv he was a man of rather acuti souial 111 iiiiiK intellect. H i> seemed c|uite ahle to hold his own uj)Ou any argument or topic ion. haintened to touch uj Q. That idea ne\<'r occurred to you '? — A. < )f course I had heard constant 1 v h(>for( ahout rei)orts of his insanity. 1 heard for instam-e one or two of the jieople that escajiei from him, scouts, Ilalf-hreeds. One man, I rememher, told me "■()h.' Kiel is mad, he is ; fool." He told me that he was doin; it Bat oolie So that [ reallv had heard it, hut i i"inie to the conclusion he was \erv far from heing mad or a fool (). That was vour conclusion ?— O. Y that was niv conclusion. 'Examined iiy Mv ( ii{i:i:Nsiiii-,i,i)s. (,). hid that man sa\' what iJiel was doiii"' at r.atoclie A. Xothinij, he siiiii said liiel was a fool and shru^^ed his shoulder; U. The letter: Iressed to vou liv liiel were signed li\- him '• Exorcde A. I helie\e they were. -No, 1 don't think they were, you ha\e them there (j) ( )f course vou never had seen Kiel previous to his surrender on the ir)th? — A. Never. ClIAKLi'.s iiiiUC'K Pithi.ado sworn, examined l.y Mr. OsLKR. (i>. You live in Winnipeg and are a clergyman? — A. Yes. Q. Were you on the hoat when the prisoner was hrought down the Saskatchewan ■ — A. i was on the Xorthfot,' with liiel. siiii|>ly inti I'liowiiii ! 1 45 Q. From whut datf iincl for how long? — A. Wo wore on the lioat niondiiy, tuesday and part of the Wednesday. Q. Woro you in his conipuiy otherwise ?— A. I accompanied him to He,<.'ina. niondav. O A. Several conversations \\ ith him. (.i On wliat suhjeets? — A. Well, on various subjects, on the rel»cllion, as i call it, also on iiis reli;;ious views and we .spoke of various other .suhjects. Q. Did he give you lii.s plans, his schemes, what he Jioped to iret hy the rehellion ? — A Ye,s, his general scheme was this : he hoped to induce the (lovernment to make a treaty with him or with the llalf-hreeds of tht^ NortliAVest similar to the treaty they had made with the Half-breeds of Manitoba. That was what he stated tf) lie his chief object. Q. How did he hope to accomplish that with hi.s force? — A. Jle told me tirst of having sent his bill of rights or representation of his grievances to the (iovernment. Q. How did he hope with his organisation to get what he wanted ? — A, It would be necessary for me to tell just how the matter jirogressed. Q. No, we only want what is material ? — A. Well, he hoped to get the police in his power, .so that whilst they were held, 1 su]>itose as hostages, he said sim])ly while lie lield them, that he might negotiate with the Government while they were in his power. Q. Then did he say how that failed ? — A. He e.xplained how that failed at Duck Lake. Q. Did he tell you what his object was at Duck Lake? — ^A. His oliject was to get Jiold of the police, so that while they were in his power he might negotiate with the Government. Q. Then failing that, what was his nevt plan ? — .\. To meet (ieneral !Middleton's forces at Fisii Creek and if they sufl'ered reverses of which he wns ]irettv confident they would, that he would then send word to the Indians and while the troops in the country were busy with the Indians, who he felt contident would rise, that then he would be able to negotiate with tlie Government. That is substantially the plan as it impre.ssed itself on my mind. Q. The second plan was to meet liim at Fish Creek and then raise the Indians and whilst th(> country was engaged with tlie Indians, to carry on negotiations with the tiovcrn- ment i -A. That is substantially what I undci'stood it to be. (,). Failing that, what did he expect to do ?^A. Well, if that failed, and of course it did fail, he still hoped to meet General Middleton ;it Uatoche and he would be able to hold him at bay long enough to negotiate with the Government. Q. These were his three diU'erent steps? -A. His three dilferent steps. ii. All ending svith the one object ? — A. Yes, to get a treaty witli the Government. Q. Now you had a conversatioii with liini, how freipuMitly ?— A. T Iiad them often and during the whole of that time. I could not tell the number, we often spoke together. K\annnei:iii!ii-';i:. Q. You lit'loiii;' to tlic N'oi'tli W'csr mounted jpidioe ? A. Vi's. (,_>. Has tlii^ iii-isoncr l)et'ii in youf clmrL^c ,' A. Vc-;. siiK-c the '2'.U'd of' i.iiiy last. (}. ]la\(' you liail occasiou to \ isit liiiii tVc(|uoutly ' — A. Ye.-;, I liavc sreii a yooii (leal of liini troni lii'st to la.st. « (,>. Sinci' thai time ii]! to the lu'csciit f -,\. Yds. (^). You ha\e eousersiMl with hiui ? -.\. ^^•:■i. Q. Principally on -.viiat sul)ji'cts ,' - -.V. Chiefly suhjeets afrectiiif;- prison (lisiiplipe ami as to his diet and .'oneessious as to iiherty. .\11 reipiisit ions must he luaih' to lue. (}. !la\t' you iieen always ahh' to ^rant them lo him ? -.\. Well, not always. i}. When refused did he sImw any exeitemejit or irrltaliilily ? — A. No, his manner was most polite and su;i\e and lie ne\ei' altered his manner in the le;ist. . l''rom the oii>er\ation yiai had of him, liavc you seen anythim;' ti> indieate h(> i.- not of sound nund I ~ A. Nothing- whatever. (^>. Anythinu' to indicate the eonti'jvry ? A. "N'es, T think so. lie always i^ave nio tlie impression of lieiuij \ery shrewd. JosKi'ii Piiarn'. Sworn, examined hy ^Fr. I'lurliid^e. i}. ^()U are a memher of the Xoilh ^Ve^^t mounted poiiee ' A. \ es. (}. What is your position .' A. Corpiu'al. (J. You hiiM' had chari^'e of the pi'isonei' ,' A. Yes. (). Since when .' A. I'l'nd of may. <}. Ila\'e y(ai lieen his keeper .' A. I ha\e. Q. Did you see him daily ? — A. Many times a day. Q. Ha\'(> you conversed with hini ? A, I did not converse with him. Q. Yiai ha\e had fre<[U(Mit opportunity of ohserving liim ? -A. Yes. (^). Have you st>eu anythiui;' in his conduct to show he is not of sound 'nind ? — A, No Sir. I always considered jiim of sound mind. (}. You ha\(' heard him speak ? — A. Often, Sir. (^). And he spoke with good reason ? — A. With I'eason and politeiie.ss. Ml!. (,)si,r,li. That is the close of tlu> evidence in reply. 31k. FiTzrviHicK follows, and after him tlie prisoner. 47 Till-: pi;isi)NKi;s .\i)i)in<:ss. ■^ nUl' IlnilMf.s, OrlltlcliirM .it' the .liny: K would l>r filsV For IMC t()-(l.-l\- {(i [ililV lusMiiuv, Ikm'iuisc the (•ii'cuiii.staiifcs aiv such c.s to excite ;niy man and viudei' tlie natural .■.vcitenicnt <.t' what is rakin- j.hu-e le-day (1 c-mnot sjieak !'',u-lisli very well, lait I am {I'yiii-- to do so. l.cean^. nio-t of thos.' iiei c'si.cak I'.n-lisli) Tudcr the I'Ncirein.nt '.vhici! niv ri'ial causes nie would juslit'y nie not to a]. pear as usual, I.iit, with my mind out of Its oi-dinaiT condition. I hoj.e, with the iielii of ( lod. 1 will maintain cafmness and anity. ( »h my (!o(i [ help -nc tlirou^di thy ,i;-n;ce iind the divine iiilluence of. lesus Christ. OhmyCod 1 t. less me, 1. less this hoiiorahlc Court, hl-.^ss this Ilonoralile .)ury, 'ile>s my udod lawyci's w ho liavc come "'M leagues to trv tosaven v life, l)!ess also tlie laywers for the Crown. hec,-uise they ha\ c done, I am sur(', what tlu>- tliouL'iit their duty. '1 hey ]i;i\-e shown me fairness wl'iich at iirst I did not .'Xpcct froi i tluMii. ( ih mv (exl ! Iiless all tho-,e who are around me throi!i;h the yrace and intluen. e ot Je.sus Christ Our Saviour, ciiam;" the i ui-iosit\- of tlioM> who ai'e pa\in:;- attention to me. change that curiosity into sympatliy with me. 'i'heday of my liirtli \ wa.s hi'lpless and my motlmr took care of me alrhoii^li slie was not ahle to do it alone, there was some oi;'- to h..lp her to lake caroof me and 1 lived. To-dav, aUhou,;.;li ii man, I am as helples,> liofore tiiis Courtii in the hominion of Canada and in this world as J was In'lpless on the knc'S of my mothei' tiie day of my Iiirlh. The .N'orth AVest is also my mother, it is my mother country, and althouiih my mother country is sick and contined in a certain way, there an- some troll! Lower Canada wIk) came to help lier t(( take care of me during;- her sickno:-.-, and I am sure that my mother country will not kill mc more than my mother did forty years an'o, when [ came into the world, hceause a mother is always a mother, and ovimi if J h,i\e my faults, if she can see I am tru(>, she will he full oflo\ofor me. When 1 came into the Xorth-WVst in .iuly, the tii'.st of ,!uly ISS|. 1 found the Indians sulleriit--, r found the Half-hreed.s eatinj;' the rotten ]ioi'k of the II mlson I'.ay Company, and .nettini;- sick and weak every "lay. .Vlthoui;!i a llalf-liree.l and haviiii;- no [)retentiou to help tho wliiti's. I also paid attention to them, 1 saw they were (h-prived of responsilde ( Jovernment. I saw that tliey wei'cMhprivcii of their puhlic liliorcies, i rememherod that ilalf-lireivl meant white and Indian and whil.' 1 paid attention to tho sull'ering Indians and tht^ llalf-lireeds, I rem.'mhered that the L,'reutest part of my heart and hlood was white, and 1 have directed my attention to help the Indians, to help the Half-hrt.'cds and to help the whites to th<; liest of my aldiity. We iru'e made petitions, I have made petitions with others to th-» Canadian ( o)\ ei-nment, askin^r to relieve the condition of this country. We h.ivo taken time, we have tried to unite all classes even if I may so speak, all parties. Those who have been inclose communination with nu^ know I have suli'ered, that I have waited months to briniif .some of the people of the Saskatchewan to an understanding of certain important points in our {)(>titions to the Canadian (iovernment and I have done my duty, it has been .said in this I)ox that I had be(>n e.i^otistic. Perhaps I am egotistic. A man cannot bean individualty without payin>,' attention to himseU", he cannot generalize liimself though he miiy be general. I liave done all I could to mak(! good petitions with others and we hav(> sent them to the Canadian Goveriunent, and when the Camulian Covernmcnt did answer through the under- secretary of State to the secretary of the joint committee of the Saskatchewan, then 1 began to speak of myself, not before. So my particular intei'cst, jjassed after the public interest. A good deal has l)een said about the settl(>ment and division of lauds, a good deal had been said at)out that. I do not think my dignity to- 14S (liiy liiTc \v(iu'ul iillow 1110 to Diontion ilic forriuii policy. Imt if T was to fxpbiin to you or if' I liiul lii'Oii ;ill()Ui'(l to iimki' rill' (nn-stioiis to witnesses. tIio.se (jiiestioiis would liiive iippeiired ill iiii alto^i'tlier (lilierent liu'lit lirfori> tlv < 'oiirt iiiul .1 nry. J do not siiy that my liiuyers did not put tln' ri^lit ipiest ion-,. The oliservations I liad the honor to iiiiike to the ( 'onrt the day ln't'ore yesterda\' were i;'ood ; they w(>re alisent ot' tlie situation, tliev did not know all the small eii-cunistinees us I did. I eould mention a point, om that i^oint ^vas leadini;' to so many, tint 1 eould not have lieeii all the time sui^'i^estinu' hy it. I don't wish it undtM'stuod that I do not a])j)veciate the Lfood work of my lawyers, hut if ! were to go into all the details nf whit has taken jilaee. I thiidx 1 eould safely show you tliat ■wjiat ('apt. Youni;' said, that I am aiming' all the time at oi'aetieil results, are true and I could ha'f> jiroved it... Duriu'.,' mv life 1 had aimed at praeiical results. 1 iiasc writiii<,'s and after my death I liop(> that my spirit will hrini,' praetieal results The learned lawyers for the (,'rown ha\(> produced all tlu' papers and serihhliiiL,' that was under (heir hands. I tliaiik theiu for not liaNiny l)rouL;ht out thos(> papers v.hi(di aro so partieular to myself, though as soon as they saw what they were, t hoy .should not have looked at tluMu. I ha\e ■written not hooks, hut many lhim,'s. All mv papers were taken. I destined the ]>a]ier.s to he puhlished. if they wt-re worth puhlishing, after my death. I told Parenteau. one of tho prisoners, to put .all my hooks under ground, lio did not do it. at that time tlioy acknowledged my order, that is why I say so. He did not put my nooks away in time, and 1 am not sorry. I say [ thank the learned lawyers for the Crown for having reserved so many things, and if hy the Almighty po\v(n' of (h)d f go free from this trial. Iha\c sueh rontidenc(> in British fairness that all my jiapers will hi' returned to mo, at least the originals ,uid if copies are wanted I will he willing to give them. No one can .say tli.it tlie Xortli-West was not sutibriiig last year, particularly tho Sa.skatclnnvan : for the other parts of the Xorth-We.st I cannot say so nuicli, hut what 1 have done and risked and to which 1 have e.\pos(ul myself rested certiinly on the conviction 1 had to do, was called upon to do something for my counti-y. It is true T heliexed for years T had a mission and when I speak of a nustion, you "will understand me not as trying to ])lay tho role of insane lieforo the ( Jr.ind Jury ,so as to have a verdict of aci]uittal upon that ground. I iielieved that I had a mission, T helieve th.at I had a mission at this \crv moment. "What encourages ino to speak to you with iiioiv coiiiidenco in .all the imperfections of niv eiiglish way of spea.king, it is th.it J have yet and still that mission, and with the help of God, who i.s in this ])ox with me and he is on the .side of my lawyers, even with the honorahle Court, tho Crown and the -lury. to help me and to pi'ove hy the extraordinary hel]) that here is a Providence to-day in my trial as there was a Providence in the hatth s of tlie Saskatchewan. I have nor assumed to myself that I had a mission. I was working in .Maniroha iirst and 1 did all T could to get free institnrionsfor Manitoha. They have those instiruiions to- day in Manitoha and they try to iini>ro\e them, while myself who ohtained them. I am for- gotten as if I was dead. But after I had ohtained with the help of others a constitution for ^[anitoha. ^vllen the governmei.i. .at (Ottawa was not willing to inauifurato ir at tlie proper time, I have worked till the in.aiguration should take place and that is why f have liecu hanishod ior five years. 1 had to re.st five years. I was unwilling to do it. I protested. I said : t)h my Cod I T otter you all my existence for that cause and jdease to make of my we.ikih\s- an instrument to helj) men in my country. And seeing my intentions, tlie late Arch'). shop r>i)ui-et said "Kiel lias no narrow views, he is a man to accomplish great things "and he wrote that leiteiof which I hope that the Crown has at hvist a copy. And in anotlua' letter when 1 hecanie what Drs. helieved to he, in.sano, JJishop P>ourget wrote again and said '■ \e he hiessed i)y timl ,and man and lake patience in your evil." Am 1 not taking patieme ? Will j lie Messed hy man as I have heen hy (!od ? ] say thar, 1 hii\(> heen hiessed liy (hid and J hope that you will not take rhat .as a presumptuous assertion, it has heen a great success for me to come through all the dan- gers I have ill tli.it 1.") y(>ars. If I have not succeeded in wearing a line coat my.self J liavo at the saie.e time the gr(>ar consolation of seeing that (hid has maintained my views ; that he has nuiintaiued mv health suihcientlv to ''o throu>rh the Avorld and that he has I'.O kept 1I1C from ixillcts wlicii l.iillcts iiiaiktd my li;it. \ am l.lcsscd l._v (icd. It is tin's tn'iil that is !,''''in,i; to sIk'W that [ am i^oin-,' to Ijc l-h.^^-cd l.y man (liirii!.:; my txistciiec, the liciK'flictidus aif ;i glial ante., that ! was not widiiu' (! when l.y ciiriimstaiK'C I was tukcii a\va\ trniii my a(h>iitc(l laml to my iiativ.- iaiid. When I sec iii'ilisli i,f.o])!(' sittiii.t;- in tlu! court to try me, fcmcmlrci inj; that th.' iMi^lisJi ])co],lo arc jiroiul of iliat word '• j'aii- play,'' T am I'onlident tliat I will lie lilcsscd l.y Cnd and liy m;ni also. Noi only I'-i.-iKp l'.(,iiri;ft sjiokc to nu! in that way, hut Father .j«'aii-l'.a|'tistc Ihiino, the priest of Woreest'V, wlio was my direetor oi eoiiseieni-(>, s.iid to ua> : "Itiel, (loil has put an ol.ject into y(air hands the cause of the triumpli of religion in the world, l:i';e vuvt\ you will sueceed wTien mosb lielie\e you have lost."' 1 have i;ot tlioM- words in my liea(\ tliosi' words of .i .1!. I'.runoand the late Afehliishop i'xiuruet. lUit ,ist yeai-, whih' I was yet in Montana, while' I was passini;- liefoie the ealiinlic ehareh. .- priest, the Itevd. Father l-'i'ederiek Elx'vilie, eurate of the ehureh of the. ImneN ..ate ( 'oneeption at lienton, said to me " T am ulad to see you, is your family hero .''' I said yes ; liesiud "(!o and lirini;- iIk ni to the altar, I want to lilcss you 'eefore you ;;() away" and with (lahriel Iie.montiind my family we all went i^nour kness at the altar, tlio priest put on his siu'iiliee and he took holy waterand was ,i;oi.n;;- to hless u ;. T said will you allow nie to pi'onounee a prayer while you hle-s me ; he said yes. | want to know what it is. I told him the pravi'i-, it is speakim.;- to iUnl '• .My father liless n, ', aeeordini,' to tlie vieTvs of thy Providenei^ whieh are I.eautiful and witlmut measure." Jl(> said to me : "You ean say tliat jnuyer wlnle I liless you " Well lie iilesscd me. I proiioneed that prayer fur myself, for my children and for ylum, hut 1 thank the lawyer for the Crown who r Howard are not here. I was there j>erlia|)S under my own name. Even if 1 wasgoing to he sentenced hy you, (ientlemen of the Jury, I Iiavethis .'-atis- faction that if [ die. \ will not he reptiteil l.y all men as insane, a.s a lunatic. A good d.eal has heen said 'ov the two IJevd Fath-'is .\ndr<' and Fourm^nd. 1 caninU caJl them my friends, hut they made no false testimony, 1 km-w that a long time ago tliey ho- lieved me more or less insane. Father Fourmond said that 1 would pas,^ ireni a gi-eat ]i!is- sion to great calmness, that shows great control under contradiction and according to my opinion and with the Jielp of Cod, I have that control. Mr Charles Nolin when he wt'nr into theho.v did not sa\- that he w;is swc^rn with nic in all the ail'airs, that I did far from taking them as insane allairs ; he was in tlimi under the cover of an oatli with four of us, he did not say that in the hox. My word isi)crha])s not testim.ony liut if he was asked in the liox; to say if there was an oath taken, he could not denv it and he would have to name the four men and wiaild ha\c to name himself When he speaks of resiginng a contract in my fa\Kr, 1 did not ask it, the Go\ ern- ment would not give it tome, liesides he was enga-cd in a moxeh.ent agai;.-t th.etlov^ ment,and to take a contract from the tfovernnien'. wa.s certainly a weakn. ss upon hi- pa :>() an.l I tnlrl liiiii not tn cniniii'oniiKO his ciiiim', mid I dild liiiii to witlidr.uv instciul of ^uin;; alu-ad till \\'«' hiw it' we wen- '^niui;- to lie listi iicJ to iit all. Hr wiuitfd me to malic a l>a!'i;aiii and ♦^■) rc-.otiiir.' my amcriciiii cit i/.i'ii^lii|i. 1 t old Id m that il wms a matter of moro .strt'a!,'tii that I should he an aiini'irau ciii/.oii, not that I WMut to m iko any utouikI of it, hut as it took ])la((' naturally aiul a'- the t'lu't cxistoil | wanted to take adxituta^e of it as siu'li. 1 told h.im it isdf adva'.ta-'e for ynu that you shuuld hiue me an aiieaiean eitizen, I lri\e no h u'!i;ain 1 1 make with ymi aliout my iimericm ipa|pei's, no lur^ain on sueh a m.ittei' us tint. Mr. Charles Nolin s|u!aks of my own amM'. ion. and other v.itnesses also. There are men aiimni;- the iui for |i..,'.:*i!(n 1 wonld ha\'c '^I'asjied at this jilacc ; luii I did not, aiid -Mr. Xolin has sonn! knowledi;'c of that. 1 sjicak of those thiM;.^s tn defend my ehaiMctcr as it has hr-en said that 1 am egotist ieai The a-itation in 'In- Xorth-WcU Territuries would have hecn constitut i^nal and \voul(' -ert linly he consututiona.l to-day. if in my opinion wc liad not limui attadceil. I'erhaps the (,'.'\vo ha.s not hecn ahie ti) iin;l out the |>.u-tieidars tint w(> wei'c attacked, hut as wo were on the scene it was easx' to understand AVhen we senil |ietit;ons t(i i he (uocrn- mt'nt, tlu'V us.'d to answer us liy .-.cnilinv jioliv'e, and when the rumors were iin^rcvasini;- every dav tint I'iel had heeii shot hi're or the;-e, or that Kiel was tjoin!,' to lie shot hy such and such, a urMi, llie |i.iliee w.eiM i;.it jriy a,iy attentiiMi tn i'. [ am ,i.;'la(l ihat i have ncntioiied the ]):iliee, n.'eiius- of the teslinmny that has heen n'i^cn in the liox. (larin!.r the (!\'annnation of many of the witnesses. If I h ul hcnn allowed to put questions ti the v»-itne.>s"s i woald hi\c asked tlu'u: wh"n it was I said, a sinii'lR Avoi'd a'/ainst a siu^h> ptlicennn or a sin;;ie otlicer. I have I'cspcct'd the p:tl!cemen and I do to ihiy, and I hiivo rcsp;>cteil tho olHcers of the jiolice : the pa])ei" th.at I sent to ^.lajor Cro/.ier is a p. ' 'if it : "We re.-ip.'\'|- y[v,\ .Major.'' Thei'c iiie pa|ii'rs \\-h.ich the (,'r.iwn has in its ha .md wliich show tliist demoralisati in (wists aiuon.;.' the fViiice, if Viiu will alifw mo to f.ay it ill t'ne f'otirt as 1 have said it In writinL,^ \'ciur Honors, ( o-ntlenien nf iheJury: If [ was ;i man of to-day jierhaps it \\nidd ho presunijitufuis tn sjieak in that way, Imt the truth is eood to say, and it is s;ud in a ])ro]);T nnnner, atul it is not witiiout ]iresumption, it" is not hecause [ have lieen lilielled for io yeirs that" 1 do not !,"l!c\c my,-.elf somethiin;'. 1 l:nov,- that thr years, hy what 1 ha\"e done for ^faidtolta and the penjile of the Xorih-AVest that my wnrds are woilh somcthin'.;', if 1 ^ive oti'ence 1 do not speak to insult. Ves, yo\! are 1 he pinneer.^ of ci\iliziition. the \\ Idles ar(; the piruicrrs of ci\"ilization, liut they hrinn' amnni;- the Indians demoralization. ho not he o'l'enchd 1 idles, do not he nH'cnded. Here are the nnui that can cure that evil, and if at times I have h 'en stroni:- against my ti ue frienals and P'.ithers, the Reverend Priests of t!ie Saskatchewan, it is liecau.'-e my convictions are stroni;". There ha\"e h.'cn w itnesses to shosv that iaimediately after great patience, I i;ou!d come hade to the )'i^spect I. ha\(? fo)- them. ()neof the v>"itnesses here, (h'nrge Nc.ss, 1 think, said that F s]ioke of .Ai'chhishop Tacln' and mid him that he was a thief. if I had had the opjiortninty [ propo.-ved J would ln\"e luestioned him as to what I said si.i that you would understand me. i have known Archhishop Tacln' as a gre.it lienefa'.'tor, I liaxc seen him surrounded 'ly his great property, tli(> jiroperty of a widav,- whose road was ]iassing near, he hought tho land around and took tint way to try and get her jiroperty at a cheap jirice. 1 read in the Oos[)el : '■ Ye Pharisees with your long prayers devour the widows.'' .\!id as Achhishop Tache is my great henefactor, as he is my father I would say hecause he has dione me an imnu'iise deal fip good, and hecause then" was no one who had the courage to tell Idm, F did, hecause I love him. hecause 1 acknowledg(^ all he has done for me. As to Pishop (Irandin, it was on the same grounds. I hav(> other instances of lii.shop Taclu', and the witiu'ss could have said as the Re\d Father iNIoulin : " When you speak of sucli i)er.sons l.-.l as Arcliliishoi) Tim-Ik' ynii (.u;,'lit \n sav Iimiadca mistake imt tliat lir ciiiiniittcd rdl.lici'y.'* I say thai wo liiivf liccn jiiitifiit u loni,' time and wlirip wr scclliat iiiilil words diils' serve iisedvcrs f(ir ,1,'i'eat ones to do wroiiu'. it is time \v lien we are jnstitied in sayinir lliat I'olilierv is rohliery cverywlid'e and tlie i^ailtv one, iiiv lioiiiiil liy ilie t'orce of imlilie o|iinii>n to take notice of it. 'I'lie one who has tlie .•onrayv to sjieak out in t hat wav instead of lieino- an outraueous man liecomes in fae: a h-nefaetor to tliosn men thenisehes and to soeiet V. When we eot to the eliinvh of St \nt line on the IStli, there was a witness wlio said. I think (leori,'e Ness, that I said to I'athi'r .Moulin ■•Voii aie a Pi'otestant Acfi.r- dinn- to my tlieoi'y 1 was not n'oin^ t<. speak in that way, Imt 1 said that we were protcs- tine' anjiiiist the ( 'anadian < Joxcrinnent and that he was protestin'^ auain-.! us, aiul that we were two |ii'otestants in our diliei'ent wavs. As to reliuiiin what is my lieiief / Wliat is my ins^mily al'out that .' .M \- instinitv, 'S our Honors, (ienth>nien of the .Iniy, is that I wisli to leave l>ome aside iiiasmiieh as "it isthe eause of division lie) s\e<'ii the ('ailiolirs and Vrotestunts. Tdidnot wish toforee niv views heeau.se, in llaloefie. to tlie I lalf-iii' Is thai followed me I used the word (VovV /i/iiiir/ir. Tf I liase any inlluenee in tlu' New World it is to liel]i in that wav and even if it t ikes two liundred yeirs to lieeome |iraetiril. then after my death that will hriui,' out piatical results, and then my ehildren will shake hands with tlie Protestants of the Xew World in a fi'iendly manner. I do not wish those e\ ils wln'eh e.xist in JMirope to he eon- tiniH'd as niin-h as 1 ran inlluem-e it. anam^ the I lalf-laeeds. ! do not wish that to lio repeated in .Ameriea, that wia'k is not the worl: of si/uie days o;' soine \ears it i^ the work of hundieds of year^. -My condition is helpless, so helpless that my '^ood lawyers and they li;i\e done* it MJth conviction (.Mr. Fit/.pat rick in Ids heautiful .'.peeeh has pi'o\ ed he liejieved I wa.s insane), my condition seems to he so lielplos that they ha\e recourse to trv and pr()V(! insanity to try and save me that way. If I .am insani', of ('(Uirse j dont know it, it is a propei'ty of inxiiity to he unalile to know n. Hut what is the kind of mission that I liax'e? ['radical I'csults. It is said that 1 laid myself acknowlediued as a ]iropliet liy the llalf-!)reeds. Thr I lalf lii'eeds ha\csome intelligence, ('apt. ^'oun'_;• who has heen so p )lite and ,;,'ent le durin,iL;' the t ime J was umler his care, said that w hat was done at I'.atoche from a niilitarv point of \ iew was nice, that the line of defence was nice, that .showed sonu' intelligence. It is not to he su)ipi>sed tiiat the I lalf hreeds acknowledi;!' me as a jfrophet if they had not seen that 1 cmild see somethin;^ into the future. If J am Messed Avitliout measure I can see somethin;;- into the future, we all see into the future m(a'e or less. .As what kind of a prriphet would I conn'? Would it he a proiihei w ho conhl all t]i(> time liinc a stick in his hand aiul threatening, a. |a-oplierof e\ il ? If the I lalf-hreeds ha\o aek' now I edy;ed me as w pro] diet, if on the other side priests come and say t liav 1 am ]iolite, if thci-e are general oliicers. ^food men, come into this hox and ]U'o\e that 1 am polite, jircno that 1 am decent in my manners, in conluniiiLC all tut wipc to me if you not lieip me, and those words c;ime to me in i he morniuL;' : "in the morn in !;• some one will come I ni'/r,\ that is to-day." I said that tn my two irtiards and you can l';o for the two m'uards T told them that if tlie spirit that directs h,e is the spirit of truth it is to-day that T expect liel]). This mominji' the yood doctor who has care of me came to me and said : " Y(ui will speak to-day liefore the (.'ourt.'' T thought 1 would not he allowed to speak, those words were yixcn tome to tell me thai 1 would lia\c the Iflierty to speak. There wa.s one Ffeneli word in it, it meant, I helieve, tliat there was to he some trench influence in it, hut the most part JMiylish. It is true that my ijfood hiwyers friuii the province of Quehec have j,'iven me yood ad \ ice. Mr. Noliii came into the ho.x and said that Mr. Kiel said that he heard a noise in iii.s Iiowels and tliat I told him that it meant soinetliinjj;. I wish that lie had said what I .Slid, what I wrote on the paper of which he .speaks, i)erliaps he can yet he put in the hox. I .V2 T said to Xolin " F)<> yovi lifiir ? " Yfs, I said tlicr<> will i.c ti'oiililc* in i\,o Ni.rtliWt'st and was it so or not, lias ilici'f liccn ,.o tfouiili' in the Noftli West ? I'.rsidcs Nolin knows tluit aiiiony ills nati nality uliicli is nnno. In- knows that tlic I iiiit'dtrccds as liunt«'rH i-aii fon'tcll iiiinv tliii ;s, ]i(>flia|)s s(aac ot' yon liu- c a s|>('cial knowlciluc ot" it. I have sct-n Halt 111! cd' wlio sav : ''my hand is sliakini:. this |iart «)t' my hand is shid I ppcr ( 'aiiada to the li'ish, if he liad no mystery he would have sen that I'pper Canada could not he i,dven to the Irish without licinij yiven to Kn;land, Ih' rested only upon iiis imanina lo '. There is another tliinir aliout the ])artition of the lands into seven. I do not know if I am prepared to speak of it here hecause it would l)(»cr)nie pulilic infoi'ination, there is so much at stake that if I evplained that theory Canada would not very Ion;,' remain quiet. ('apt Deane has .seen my papers, I have sent them .sonu'where hut he lias seen them, and aft(.'r .seeiuL; tii'Mii lie came there and said that I was an int(lli;;'t nt man and pretty shrewd. I have w I'itten these docunuMits and they ai'i' in the hands of th si whom I trust. I do not want to mak" thei", p,il>lic durint;- my trial what I lia\(' not made pulilic durin;;' til) days wc were in arn.s at I'.atoche, there have licen there diUerent times when tlie ('ouncil deciilcd to scud men to the States to notify the nationalities to come to our assistance, hut three dclcu:at ions waited for my orders and have; not started. Why,' IJccause 1 had ail oliject. The llalf-hreeds also know that I told them that 1 would he punished, that 1 did not say it of my own lesponsaliility hut that 1 said it in the same way as I. had told tiiem other things. It was said to me th.at. the nation woulil he punished. Why? Hecause she had consented to lea\e Home tooipiick. What is tlie meaning' of that.' 'J'lierti wa.s a dis- cussion aliout it too (piick. They said that they sliould do it at once. Too fpiick does not mean too soon, ff we .say yes, it shows no consiih ration to the man. If (rod wants something; and if we .say yes. that is not the way to answer liim, he wants the conscieiic(s to say yes : < )h my ( iod, I do tliy will : and hecause the Halfdireeds quickly separated from Kome in such a ijuick manner it was disa;;real>le to (iod and they were punished and. f told them it would happen, tif i y ot those wim iire tliei-e can pro\e it. Jlut you will say : " ^du did not ])iit yourself as a jir ipliet '". Tlic liiiieteenth century is to he treated in certaiii ways and it is piohalily f ir (hat reaion I have found the word " I^xovede". I prctfer to lie called one of the Hock. 1 im no niori than you are, I am simply one of the ilock, equal to the rest. Jf it is any satisfaction to the tloctor to know what kind of insanity I have, if they arc Ljoinj,' to i all my pretentions insanity, I say, luimhly, tlii()uj,di the ;,'race of God I helie\e I am the propliet of the New World. I wish you to helicvc t hat I am not tryiny to play insanity, t here is in the manner, in the st;mdi..i,' of a man, the proof that he is sincere, not playin.:,'. You will say, what have you <;ot to say 1 1 havo to attend to praoticiil re. idts. Is it practical that you ho acknowledged as a prophet / ]s it practical to .say it. I think if the Halfdireed.s have acknoledjj;ed me, as a coniniunity, to he a jirophet. 1 liave reason to lielie\e that it i.s heginiiint,' to heconi',! practical, i do not wish for my satisfaction the name of jirophct. Generally that title is accompanied which sui-h a hunk'ii, that if there is .satisfaction for 1 r>:i hiecds youi- vanity tlidf is a clicck to it. To sptniy«*'lt' H]! ri.s Pojn' ! No, mi I I said I lirlit-vi'd tliat l'>i-.||i>ii r>nuri;i't liad siu't led (lie I'djm ill spirit and ill t riitli Why I lifcausc wliilc lliiiiic did lint pay attention to us, he as a liislmp paid attcniioii to lis. ^llll have u'ivi'u iim your attnitioii, Ynur Jlouors, ymi iiasc v'ivcii inc yitui atti'iilinii • Icntii'iiicii (it' tlw .lui'y, mid this yrcat audicncf. I sn' it' I ;;() aiiV t'tifthcr on that |Miiiit I will lons" (lie t'avoiii' yoii liavr ;,'iaii(fd nir up to tins tinu-, and iis 1 am /liuiiny ail the time at piactical I't'sults, I will stop lierc, iiiiisiir nf inysclt', thfouuli the lii'lp lit' (lod. I lia\i' (udy a t'css muri' wdrds to say, ymir Honors, « lent IiMiit-n (if the. fury, my n |iiiiatiiin, my lilicrty, my lit'c ;ircat vdur discrctidii, sn con- lidcnt 1 am that 1 Iiunc imt the slijjlitcst anxiety, not even (lie slightest doidit as tei-aii', are: 1st. That the House df ( 'diiiindiis. Senate, and ndnisters df the hdininion wiio make laws fur this land and ^hs'tii it are no represent at inn whatever nf the penple of the Xdith West ■Jndly. That the Xdrtli-West (."diincil generated hy the federal ( iov. rnnu nt has the s,'roat defect of its parent. ^irdlv. Tlie numlier of mcinliers eh^cted fur the (,'niincil hv the [leejilf make ii only a sham representative leyislatun; and no representa.ti\e ( idveiniiient at all. l>ritisii civilisation, which I'ulcs to day tlie W( fid, and t'ae British constitutidu has detined sach (Jdvernment as this if; wliich rules the Xdrlh West- Territory tis irrespnn- silile (iovei'iinient, which }ilainly ni(>ans that there is no i'es[)d!i.-ili!ity, and I'y the science which lias hoen slmwii here yesterday ydur are cdiiipelled td adnii', it, there is no respun- siliility, il is insane. (iodd .sense coinliined with scientitic theories lead to the same cdiulusidn !'v the t(>stimony laid liefdre you duriui,' my trial, witnesses on lidth sides made ii certaiti that jictitidii after petition has been sent tn the Kedeial ( !ii\eri»ineiit, an.', so ir'responsilile is tha.t (Jovernment to the Xorth-Wesl, that in the cdursc^ ni several vears lieside dnini;- nothiiii^ to sati.sfy the people (/f this great land, it haseven liardly lieeii alile to aiisw(>r (Uice or to ^'ive a .sini,de response Tliat fact would indicate absulute lack df responsiliility and therefore insanity complicated with paralysis. The ministers of an insane and irrcspon-ilile ( Jovernment and it.s little one the N(.rth- West Council made uji their mind to answer my peticidiis l.y surrdundiiiL( nie slyly and liv attempting,' to jtimp upon nil iddently and vipon my piniple in the Saskatchewan, liappily when they apiieai-ed ami shdwed thcii' teeth to de\(iur. I was ready; that i.s what is' called my V-rinie of hij,di trea.son and fdr which they hold me to day. ( »h, my (,'()()d Jurors, in the name of Jesus Christ the only one who can sav(! and help me, tlK.-y have tried to tear uie to pieces. If you take the plea of the defence, that I am not responsiblo for niy acts, ac(piit mo completely, since I have lieen (piai'rellini; with an in.sane and inesponsihle (Jovernment. ou prrjuounce in favour of the Crown, whicii contends that I a'li respoiisilile, acijuit 1A4 HI" nil tilt' siini' ^'mi an' iti'i'i'ci'tly jusfitif I in 'U'(li't'i'iiic, while tin- ( invcriiiiiciit, my nciMisfi', li'iiicf ii-i't'-i|iiiiisiiili' imd cniis • |ii''iilly iusiiii', ciiiiint Imt Irnt' iidcil wimii;,', iukI it liiuli MiMSdii tlii'i'c is. if iiiiist 111' (1)1 its sidi' ;iiis to iii't'iiilt \(iui' .itd'iit "mh t'nr ;i while Ills i InNul;,- Will )ilnr !, I'iMsoNKIL -Imh' title. '11 ye US I h l\ e li,' 'ii lieijlectile^' lliy.M'lt'. even nlii' nt' the must Imrd V\ itiie.Nes nil me s lid tint with all mv vanilv I iie\er was jurtieiilar as tu my C'lnthiiiit : yes, lieriii>e I iie\ el' had iiiiii'li ti liii\ any ''h i( hi ii .■;, Tiie reverend Katlier Aiidi'i'. has nt'leii had tin' kindness tn feed mv family witli :» sack nf llmir and Katlier Kniiriinind ; niy wife and eiiildren are wilhniil me'iiis, while | am wnrkini,' more (htiii any ie|ire-.eniati\ e in ilie Ninth-West alili.aiuh I am .simply a yiiest of this ennnti'y, a U'liesi of the Half liveeds (if the Saskaleliewaii. AllliiiUuh as a sim|ile u'lK'st I wurk to lii'tt.T the eiinililimi of the )i<'u|iie (if the Saskiit chew .a n, a t t he I'isk (if my life, to l)"ttei' eeiidit ion of I he |m ii|i!i' of the North \N' est. I ha\ e nc. cf had any pay. it has al\\a\ s lieen my ho|ie 111 lia\ e a f'd I' li\ iii'^dne day. It w ilMie foi yai In |iioiHiunee. I f V(ai say I wa-- rii;ht, yoii tan e"iisi'i( lit ioiish a((|iiil me, as I hojie thidiiuh tlie help of (iod, \(ai will. ^ On will eoiisole tliose vjio |ia\e lieeii lifteeii year.-, ai'ound me, only partakiiii,' in my siitl'er- inu;s ; s\ hat you will no in jiL^tiee to me, in just ire to my family, in luaici- to my friends, in jiistiee to the .N'.irt h-West, will in- rendered a hundred tiim-s to yon in this world, and 111 iiM' a sacred eNpression, life e\ ( rkisi in..;' in the other. I thank yotir Honors for t h" fa\ our you have uranted me in speaking, I thank you for till' r till! ion yoii lia\ c i;i\en lee, ( lent I em en of the .lury. and I tliaid< those who lia\i' had tlie k'indne.^s to encoura'^e my impert'ect way of spcakimi- (he I'ln^lwh lati!4:ua;,'e 'ly their yood attention. I |iut my speech under the |iroteetion of my (Jod, my Sa\ioiir, he is the only one V\ ho ''an make it elleclisc, it is possiMe it should lieeoiiie etlei'tixe as it IS piojio^.'d to '.food liii'ii, !o ';'(iod |ii opie. and to 'jdod 1,'ulles also. .^l r. Itoliiiisoii for (III' pi'osc'.it ion addre.-ses llie ]uyy and aftei' him tlie presidiie.; JudLie deliscrs his clinrije. < >ii ihi' Jury ret u mill',', afier liaNint,' retired to eonsider tlieir xcrdiet, the clerk of til" (' uirt aske I ; (lentleiucn, are you ai;re"il upon your verdict :' IloW say you .' Is the priioii"!' uiiilty or i;ot uuihy .' 'i'he jury liii'l the prisonei' '^'uiltN'. ( 'ij:i;k. - t ii'iillenien of ill,' .lury, In ark"n i > yo;ir \-erdict, as tin- Court records it : ^ ou tind the prisiiid', L uiis IJii'l, i,'uilty. so say y(ai ;ill, Tlie .1 ur\» answered : ( iuilt \ . A.lfKoi;. A our llouor, I Inve liei-n as!o ^ our Honors propose to pass senteiii'e now . 1 helieNc the proper course is to ask the sentence of the ('ourt upon the prisoner. Mr. .1 fsiici; i; !('!! AKD.^oN. — l/Hiis lliel, ha\i' vou anything,' to s;iy why the sentence of til" (' I'.ir; -,11 I'jj.l n it !i ' pronoun 'el up m you, for the oU'ence of which you have lieeii fniiiid "uiltv. PitisnNT.i;. -Yes. 'S our Ilol lor. Mr. Fiizi'.vriiiCK --15 'fore the a'jcusod answers or m;ikes aiiv remarks as su''La'sted isiiii iind ii'iit, niv wliili till' liinst s 1(1 liiv I F:itll(T -1 I'alhrr .n\-i' t Inn iiiulrv. II w.il'k In ((» h.'ttn- ravs Ih'cii was I'iLilit, ill. V(M1 ny snlVcr y iViriids, lis Wnfld, d\ you tor liavc had !,'iia;,'(' liy ividiii', lie tixi' as il ii'csKliii;^ cl.Tk nf u .' is tlu' •(•iii'ds It : ('iiiiiiiicnu KMidat inn it's. If |a'o|U'r SCMti'llOC H\'(' liCI'll ■iUtiijestt'd .'.» Iiy ^ iiiir IIoiHir, T A (II I Id ))(•;; liMvc si 111] liy to ask ^'(lll|• lliaior to kind! v iioic tin- oliji'ct idii \\ liidi I li;i\c ul ready lak( ii to ( lif ;nrisdic( ioii ot t lir ( 'oiiit , Mr. .1 iM hi: Kh'Iiauimon, — It is ndcd, Mr. Im; /.palrick, ^Cii iiiidiTstniid of I'oiir.sf wliy I caiiiiot rule ii|ioii it. .M. FiTZi'ATUK'K. - -It is siiinily sm as V) rcsLTNL' uiiy I'l'coiirHt.' iln' law may allow lirn-- at'ici'. I'iMHONT.li. ( 'an I .s|,c ik how .' .MlV .1 I'SIK'i; l{ iCIl \l!l) '(\, nil \f,H. I'liisoN'Kii, ^'(lllr I jdiior. ( (('III Iciucii of I lie .i iirv . . . . Mr. .il.'.STK'i; llicii \i;ii-o\.--'I'||(.|c is no jury ik.w, they .wr disdiarunl. PlMSoNI'Ii. — Well, tlay liiisc |l||^s.•d Jiway lict'irc uic, .Mr. .Iisnci: {{icii \i;i(,so\. — N'l-s. ilicy lia\.. |.:\s,,fd a\vMy. VitisoNr.u. — I'.ut at the same tiii.c. I couKiiliT llicin yet .still there-, still in llii'ir scats. Tlie<'o!irr lias done th" work I'oi' inc. and nltlioiiifh at first aj)|icavancc it seems to l>c .1 ,' linst inc. I .•i-iii SI (•(iiiiideiii in ( lie idea wlueli ! lia\-e had tlie honor to cxiircss yf'stcn'ay, thii I think it is for !,'ooi| and not for my loss. I'li to this moiiicMt, I Itnc liccii con- sidered liy a certain party as insiuie, \>y another party as a criminal, liy ano'licr party as ;i iiiin with \\h'.ni il w,i^ dMnliil'iil wlnthei to lia\c aiiv intercourse. So there w.is hostility and there wis C(int(aii|it, and there wii> avoidance 'i'o-day. hy tin vci'dii t of the ( 'oiirt, one of these three sitiiitions has disap]ie!irei!, I siijipo.e tli.it ifler lia\in',' liecn coniieinncd, I will cease to lie called a fool, and for me it is a '^I'cat advanta^'c. I consider it as a i,'reat advanlaye. If I lia\f a niissien, I say '' If '" for the s, ike of those who doulit, lnit for my part it means " Since, " since I have a mission, I cannot fuilil my mi'; ion i;s lon;j as 1 am looked u]ion as an insane lieiiiL' — human keiii'/, at the inonien* that I lie.'in to ascend that scale, 1 iie:,'in to suci d. ^ (111 have .iskeil me, ^ oer Honor, if I had anythinir 1o say why my sentence should not he passed, ^''es, it is on that point part iciikirly my attt ntioii is directed. Iicfoi'e sayini;' anyt-hin;.j alioat if, I wish to take notice that if there has e\-er licen any contradiction in my life, it is at this moment, and do ! apjicar excited .' Am I very irrit.dilc ? Can I control myself.' .Xnd it is just on I'dieim, and on politics, and 1 am contr.adicied :if this moment on jmliiics, and the smile that comes to my face is not an act of my will, so much it '/omes natur.ally, from the satisfaction that I prove that I exjiorionce seeiii!,' one of my dililenlties disiijipeuiini,'. Should I lie cxiMutid, at Ic.ast if I wf>re ifoine' to he e.xecuied, I woulil not he e\ecuted as an insaiu- man, it wotdd he a uieat consolation for my mother, for my w ifc, for in\ children, for my hrnthers. for niv relatives, even for my jtrotec'tor.s, for my countrymen. 1 thank the ifentlemen who were cmi posing; the .lury for ha\iiii,' nM-ommended nie to the demein-y of the Court. \\'!ien 1 express the jrreat lioiie that I have Just expressed to you, I don't express it without '_'ioun(l, my liopes ai-e I'casonahle, and since they are recoii, mended, since the recommend- ation of the Jury to the Crown is for cleiiiency. It would hi' ea.sy for me, your Hojiors, to make an inceiidiaiy protest, and tal;e the three reasons which haxc lieen reasonably jiut foiward liy my ,i;ood lawyers and learned lawyers, ahout the Jury, almut their selection, aliout tlie one who selected them, and about the comjietency of tlie Court, hut why should I do it, since the Court has unilertaken to prove that I am a reasonal.Ie man / .Must not I take advaiitaLfe of the situjition to show that they are riu'ht .and that I am reasonalile, and yesterday, when I said hy repeatinj.; the evidence which has lieen i,'iven ajrainst m(>, u hen I said in conclusion that you had a decent projilnt, I have just today the great opportunity of proving it is so, hesides clearing me of the stain of insanity, clearing my career of the stain of insanity. I think the verdict that has been given against me is a proof that I am more th;iii ordinary myself, but that the circumstances and th<' help that is given is more than ordinai'v, are more than ordinary, and although I consider myself ■inly as others, yet by the will of Cod, by his Providence, by the circumstances which have .siirroiiii(Ii'(l iiic t'di' lit'tt'cn years, I iliiuk that, I li,i\f litcu calii'il tn ilo sdiiictliiiii^ wliicli at least ill tlit> Xi>i'ili-W(>st iioIhuIv lias dnui' yet, ami in sniiic way I tliiiiiv tliat to a eertai'i nniiiln'r nt' iicople tlif \ crilict, against iiic tn day i- a {irnot' tliat in. v I)i' \ am a in-ophrl. may l>e iticl is a piMplict. lie snllers tV.r it. Now, I Iiave lieen linnted i:s an elk tor fiteeu years. I>a\id lias lieen seventeen, I tliink'. I wmiM !ia\e to lie aliout t vo years still : it tlie niist'oi'tunes that I liaxc had to yo throiiyh were to lie as Ioiil; as chosen ot' the old Da'id, I would have two years still. I'Ut 1 hope it will come sooner. I have two ri'asons w!i\' I wo'.ild ask- that senrenee shonld not lie passed upon luc, 111,'ainst lae. Von will excuse me, you know my dil1ii'ult\- in speaking; l'ai;(lisli, and 1 ha\(' had no time to prejiare, Vour Honor.... Kwm had I prepare. Tlu' trotililes ot' the Saskatchewan are not to lie taken as an isolated t'a<'t. They are the result ot' fifteen years war. The head of that s of iSi!!), lieinj^ the trouMes of the N'orth-West and the trouliles of ISS.") iiciin,' still tlu^ trouliles of tlie Xorth-West, ilic sUi^ircstion comes nat urally to the miml neer.s anionic tlic population, lint the ureal majoiity were Half l>reeds. We took up arms ai,'ainst tin- invaders fmni the Kast without knowing!,' them They were sd far apart from us, on the other side of the l.akes, that it cannot he said that wc had any hatred at;ainst them. We did \i' doni' au;ainst those parties coiiMiiif fr.aii the Ivisr wiiat we used to d us. I'lili'ic tijiinion in the States helped ns a ,i,'reat deal 1 (Ion t mean to .--ayth.it it is nc .ied to olit-un justice on this side of the line that I'l.- States should iiicrfci'e, hut .i' that rime, as tlna'e was no tele^riiph communiiat ion hetween the l'i.e-te>-n l^roviiu'.'s an I the North-West, no railroad, and as the natural way of ^diiii;- to Canada was thro'iLfh the I'nited States, naturally all the rumors, all th<' news had to pass !iy the Stal. s, .and oii t heir passa:;-e they had t times, tirst hy i) mahl .V. Smith, a memlier of the Privy Council at that time ; second, hy the Reverend .Mr. Thiliault, the late Reverend Mr. 'I'liihaull : third, hy .\rchiiishop Tache, who had heeii ealled from Rome forthe purpiseof pacifying the North-West. When those three deicLiati-s had invited us to send (leleL(ates wc thought tint it was safe to send deh'itates, and I apjiointcd the l{e\ erend I''alher Richii, tiow cu"!ite of Saint Ndi-h(at. in .Manitoha; 1 appointed 'he late .lud^e Rlack, wli]>lict. Of lit ('I'll ; still : it t' the uld upon tiir, sli, iuid I it woiiM (I oxe'u--' ■t. Th.'v liii'ultv lit' rtli-W.-st. no to-(l;iv •OllllIoS lit' WVst, {])<■ inn nt" till' foiihlcs it .inula, nn, ■,l])^ S('\('!l livci', ami Tnii' ii llioni,'' tlir III Tln'v 1 that \\v •titica'inii. ors ol" till' iiiiiLC IT. iiii till- WrM. deal.... I ihat I'll' iiiii'-atiuH ui'al wav , all th'.' i-t'iiiari<- (' to us ; riiiiK'iii Wo t. ...;.- A tiv,i\ (■oll>ii!rr it Of Iini. s a soi'i jl 11 as t lii'\ l.ilni A. \-criiiiii'ii' lat is til ■ (Icii'LCati- y ( 'lUiii.-i' riiiliaul' ; liacitViii-; ';;-atOS \\i' !• lli.'h.it, ho (lied ill SiM)tl;ui(l ; 1 a])|i()iiiti'(l AUrod If Srott, he is dead also, ftiid these tlirco dclcuatcs stai'tcd, with ()url)ill st that they v.'jiresenterl. It is ae!y that \ryy same fact that lifteen ye;irs a-o. the treaty of which J am sjieakiny was the treaty of the Xorth-West of the delegates of the Nortli-West, and if hy trying;' to say that it was the delegates of the XortliAVe-t iliey wanted to a\oid the fact that I \.as no heiiiLj at all, the whole world knows that it is not so, they cannot avoid me, and Sir .lohii A. .Macdonald himself, it, liie report of tli(> committee of in(|uiry aliout those \ cry sane trouhles, the commitlee which >a( in 1^71. Sir .lolin A. .Macdonidd said : " I iliiiik we acknowledge Hiel in his .■status of a y the hominioii. .\s the I lalf-lu-eed peoplo 'Acre the majorit\' of Maidtolvi, a-- at tiicir sta^i' of ci" i!i/.aiion they were not supposed lo lie ahle to administer their Itinils. we thouulit te. n. at that time, it was a reasonalile concession to let them l;o. not liecaiise we were willing.' to let them u'o. im; lieeiuse it si-emetl impractical lie to ha\ e t!ie administrat ion of tic lands. St ill oiu' of the condi* ions Was that tlu' people of th" North We i wanted t he administrai ion of their lands. The ilalf-lireeds had a million and the la.iul •j:\\\\\\ of 1,11)0,(1(10 acres owned alioiit 'i.")0(),000, if I mistake not. which is ahont 1-7 of the land of Maintoha. You will .see the oriLrine of iiiv insanity and of my foreign policy. 1-7 of the land was i,'ranted to the people, to the lialf-hreed.-, of Manitoiia, laiulisli and French, I'lotestaiit and Catholic. 'I'iicre was no distinction whtitever. hm in the .sulidi\ ision, in the allotment of those lands !i"twcen the Half-lireeds of .Manitoiia. it came that they had l' |0 acres of land. Now tho Canaiiian (lovernmeiit say. that we will L;i\c o the Half lireeds of the North-West, L'-IO ores. If I was insane I would say yes, hut as 1. have had. thank (!od. all the time, the conseienciousiu'ss that I had a certaiii dei;r(>e of rea.son, I ha\(' marie up my mind to luaki' use of it aiiM to s.iy th.at 1-7 ol' the lands in Manitoiia. as the inaeuuiMtion of a )iriiiciple in the Nortli-SVest. had to liiiiiu to th-' llalf-1. reeds of the Ndrth-West, at least as soon a; p(>ssi1ile, tin' nimrantee for the fu'ure that a seventh of the lands will also lie u'iv i to them. .\nd seeiii;^- and yoiir-elf uiidcrstandinL;- how it is ditlicult for a small jiopulaMon as the Half iircivl populiiiou to liaxe their voice heard. I said what lieloni,'s to us ouiiht to he ours (turri^ht to the .North- West is acknovvledu'ed, our co- |iroprietorship with the Indians is acknowledged, since one-seventh of the lands is -i\en lis. hut we have not the means to he heai'd. what will we do ,' 1 .said to some of my friemi.-. ; If there is no other way. we will make the people who have no country underst iiid that we have a country here" svliicli wo have ceded on condition, we want the seventh of iIiq I.^s laud, and it" tho bargiiin is not lni. Now, it is my tuin I thank you. T count thcni and I will show you if I nridcan insane- cnunu'fation of rjic parties. I say, we will iuNitc i he Ttulians of the Sttitcs, tin; Irish of the States, the I'.avariains of the States, Poles of the States, lU'li^dans of the States and it thev eonie and hel[) us here to have the 7th, we will i;'i\e them each a 7th and to show thit we are not fanatics, that we arcs not jmrtisans, thnt we do not wish only for the < 'a- tholics, liut thai we have a consideration for those who are not Catholics, L said, we will invite the Danes. We will in\ ite tht^ Swedes who are numerous in the States, and the Norwt"i,dii-'>'^ to come around, and as there are Indians and ilalf-tireeds in liritish ("o- luni'oi;!. and as British ('olumliia is ii part of t!ie iunnense Xorth-West, we said no* on]\- for ours(dves hut speaking' of our i-hildren w(> will ni ike the projtosition that if they help us to h ive our 7tli on the two sides of the Rocky .Nfountains they will each ha\e a soventh, and if the -lews will help us. and on th<' eoiuiition that they acknowled^-e.Je.sus-Christ as the Son of (J-kI and the only Sa\ iour of huiuan kind, if they help us with their money, ^\■^• will '4i^'<' them one se\enth. and 1 said also, if the principle of :;ivin!;- oiu- seventh of l!ie lands is ^ood in the N'orih-West, if the princi}>l<' of ;;ivin;,' one se\entli of the lands to the Half-breeds in the Xorth West; is ^ood, it (ui:;ht to he ;.;ood in the Jvi.st also, and I said v it is not possible that our \iews should !>e heard, we will, I, as an american citizen, I will invite the ({ernrins of the States and I will say if you ever liave an o;)portuiuty or! la'ossini;' the line in the Ivist do it and help the Indians and the Half-lnvn-ds of the KaM to have a revenue eipuvalent to about one soventh. And what would b(> the reward of the (lerviians. Tht^ nvvvai'd of the (lermans would be if thi'V won' successful to take a ])arl of the country, and make a new (ieianan 1 ndian w orld somewhere in Ih'itish Xorth Amei'ic a. lUit that is the last resort, and if t had not had a verdict of ,L,'uilt a,;j;ainst nu; I would have ne\er said it. Yesterday it was just those things that I havt; avoided to .say when I said I have a reason not to mention them, and when [ said as one of th(^ witnes.ses said that my proclamation w:is in Pendiina, T think I am i'i>;'ht because; of this trial ; you see that my protoiitions is that I can speak a little of the future events, my trial has tiruimlit out th(> i|uestiou of the seventh ami although no (jne has explained tlu; thin,i,'s as I do now still thei'c; is enouirh said abiuit the sevenths of the lands and the division of tiie lauds into .sevenths, seven nationalities, while it ou;j;ht to have Ijeen said between ii u nationalities, that by teleLjrajih to-day my proclamation is in P(Mnbina trtdy and the Stat'- have my ideas. They have my ideas. The Fenian element, tiontlemen, without any tanL,di'i ■ object have crossed the lines .several times for the only .sake of what many have i-all" i revenge,l)ut now that lliel whose name is some what proniinent ff>r lifteen yeai's is ke. w ,i to be in his trotdilesfor life and death foi' himself and his natilionality. now that my tr'ai jfives uie a certain increase of celei)rity, now that tho.se iiuestious are appearing before tli ■ public nowthat there is a land league in the States, that the ^•ery same element which poss. > SOS Feniaiusni is still there and (piiet because they havi; no j)lan, because they ha\e no ide i around which to gather their numbers and when they catch at it do you think 'hat they will snule? And CJaljriel Dumonton the other side of the line, is that (bil)riel Dumont inar tive 1 I believe not. JFe. is trying to sav(> me from this bo.K. This is no threat I hav ■ written it. T have written a document of that kind and put in in the hands of Cajitain Dean, three weeks av^o This is not an inspiration of the moment. I ha\ e the rinlit to thank tiod for the prevision of what h:i|)i)ens to day but there is another means. I don'i wish that means, tlicse means. T don't wish them to call the people fi'om the States on this side of the line. Xo, [ wish it only if there is no (jther possibility. If there is no otlier resort, of course that is my wish. The last remedy a It lion j,di it may be o.xtreme is always a remedy and is always worth something.' to try it, but if thei-e is justice as I still hopiv.. Oh I here it seems to me I have be(;oine insane to hop*; still. I have seen so many men in my position and wheie an; they 'I lint Lepine has had a scatibld also in Manitoba, and he was not I'.vccuted. Why ? iJecau.se he was recommenth.'d to the clemency of the court. The idea of the 7th I J have two haiuls, and I have two sides on n\v head, and I have twi> 15!) !• IS jiii cxtrciiif 'lll\(> (•oiuc to countries I am an Anioiican citi/cn and I l.av.. two ooiinlii.'s, and I am tal«>n Iimv as a l)ritisli siili|(r(. I don t al.andnn my id. 'a of tlic 7tli. I sav l.trauso tlio otlw ami an .xtivmity I dont, wish f.'-r it till cxticnitios "liav.. uoim- and 1 extrcmitn's just now, i.ut tl.nv a.v s,,m.> lioprs vrt. For mo, mv lioart is fid! ..f liopo l,iit my tru'nds, | sii[ip(.s(' that many of tlimi think that I am .jjonc! [f Canada is just with mo, if Canada rcsports )iiv lif.'. mv lil.ort v and mv rciuitatioii they will ;riv.' me all what thry has.' tak.'n fi-,,m m.', an.f as I "sai.l ycstor.lav rhat iimnonso inlhu'n.'.' which my arts ar.- -athorii.;,' for tho last titles. v.>ars and wJuVh as tlio power of St. 'am e.)ntaim'd in an .■n,i,'ine will hav.- its way, th.-n what will j d,, ' \t \vili do that [...rhaps Riv\ will -,) t.. ih.' Dnminion .Ministry, and then- inst.'ad ..f ,•allin..■ t he parties from the States, h.' will hy means, eons'itutional means of the .•nuntry, invit.". the same parti. >s from iMirope as enn-rati.,n. iiut let it )»■ w.dl undi rstood that as I'nV rhdu has i.eeii aeknow h'd-ed as tli pnipri.'tnr ,,f the s.,il with th.' Indians, I want to' assrrt that ri^rht. It is eonstitui ionnally aeknuwh^lyv.! in th.- .Manit..i,a Aet l.y tIie:Ust clau.s." of that Aet iua\ it does n, it savs two' words, extin-niish- in,.;and KKJO.ODO aeres of land. Tuo wor.is. And as .noIi ehil.l nf "thf half l.r.'.HJs ir..ts']-7th naturally I am at least entitleii t.. iliesam.'. it is why [ spokeof th.- 7th. Fer til" [nilians. not of tiK! lands Imt .)f th.' r.-venue as it increases. j'Uit snmeLedy w ill sav on what .'n.un.l will you ask l-7th, of th.' lands .' Doy.ai own the lands ? In En-la'nd.in Frauee, the Freiieh anl the Kn!j;lish hav<- land, th.' first who wcr.- in Kn-laml. tii.'y wer.' tlie.)wners .)f th.' soil an.l they t lansniitte.l ton.'norati.ms Xf>w l.y th.- s..il (h.'y hav." had th.'ir start as a nati-.n. Who .starts the nations.' The \.'i v same ..ne who ereat. s'th. ni, C.Kl.tJod is the niast.r oi the univers.', our ])lanet is his land, and the narioiis. the trihes, are ni.'mheis .if his fandiv, and as a you as our own lamj has h...u given to .)ur fatlu'i's in Fngland, or in France, and of course you .'aiin. it exist wlihuiit having that spot of land. This is the princii>l.'. (!od caiumt create a trih.- withoMt locating it, wo are not liirrls, wo have to walk .m the ground, and that :,n-ound is en- I'iehed with many things which besides its own value iiureas.'s its \alue in another manner, and when we cultivate it, we still incr.'a.se that value. Well, on what jirin.-iple can it he that the Canadian (iovernment have given the 7th to th.' Ilalf-hr.'eds in .Manitolia I I .say it must he .ui this ground, civilization has the m.'ans .if improvin" life that Indians or Half-lireeds liave n.it, so that when they come in .»ur savai,^e e.iuntry, in our uncultivated land, they e.ime and help us with tlieir ei\ ili'/ation hut we help ih'^m with our land.', so the .[uesthm comes, your laud, y'lU ('re.' .ir y.ui Half-hreed, your land is worth to day l-7th, of wliat it will lie when civilizati.m will have .ipened it. Y.Hir country unopened is worth to you only l-7th of what it will he when ooi-ned I think it is a fair share t.i aekn.iwledge the genius of civilisation to such an extent as to give when I have .sevei' jiairs of socks, six to keep one. They made th.' treaty with us. As thi'V made the treaty, 1 say they had to oh.serve it and did they oh.serve the treaty .' No, there was a fjuestioii of amnesty and wh.'U the treaty was mad.', one of the .luestions was that hef.ire the Canadian government would .send a (i.ivernor into .Manitoha an impe- rial amnesty shoukl he proclaim.'d so as to hl.it .lut all the difHculti.'s of the past, Instead of proclaiming a general amnesty liefore the arrival of the (4overner, whi.-h took plac(> the L'nd of S.'ptemlier \f<7(), tht> anmesty was proclaimed tim liTith April '7'». So I sull'ered for five years unprotected. Hesides I was expell.'.l fr.im the House twic.'. I was, they sav,out- iawed, hut as I waslnisy asa memher in the Hast and that the trial was the West I could not ln> in two places and they say that I was .lutlawed, hut no notiticati.in was sent to my house even of any proceedings of tlie court. They .say that [ was outlawed and when theamn.'sty came five years after the time it should have c.ime, [ was hanished f.ir (iv(> years and D'pine deprived of his political rights for ever. Why? Because he had given political rights loO to -Miinitoba. Is tliiit all? No. Did the amiipsty como the Tinperial f invfrneinent ? Not at all. Ft came from our sistci' folony in the East, aiul niiiul you to luakc a Jiiiracle of it, I say th(^ one Ix'iii:,' i^rcat and Rid l)eiii,i^ small. J will -^d on the other side, and I am lianished. It is a woiuh-r, 1 did not tako and !,'o to Mexico. Xatu- rallv I went to the States. Amnesty was i,iven ly tlie Sen'etjuT of State at ( »ttawa, the party who treated with us. Tliat is no amnesty. Ft is an insult to me. it has always heen an insult t.! me. I said in Mauitol)a two years au'o it was an insult and I considered it as such, llut are there ])roofs that an imperial amiesty has Ix'cn i)ronnsed ? Yes many. Ai'chl>ishoj» Taehe, the delegate who iiad Ween called, the prelate who has lieen called from Home, to eonie and pacify the Xorth-West received a counnission to make, to accomplish that pacilication and in general terms was written his commission, and when ho came to the North-West Ijcfore I .send deleuates lie said : I will give you my word of Iwjnor as a deleifate, that there will Ix' an I m[iei'ial amnesty, not Itecause I can promise it on my own responsihility liut lu'cause it lias heen guaranteed to me hy the rejirosentatives of the Crown, and the Ministers them.selves, tlie .Ministers of the Crown. In.stead of an imperial amnesty came the amnesty of which I spoke, and, besides, an amne.sty which came Hve years too late, and which took the trouble of hanislnng me for five years more. ^Ii{. JusTici-: RiciiAiiDso.v. Is that ail ? Pri.soxeh. No. Excuse me if I feel weak and if I .stop, at times, I wish you would he kind enough to, — 15ut the last clause of the ^Fanitol a Act speaks also a little of the Xoi-thAVest, speaks that a temporary (Jovei'nment will l)e jiut into the Xortli- AVest until a certain time, not more than li\t' ye^irs. And, gentlemen, the temjioi'ary Government, how long has it lasted now:' ilow long jias it existed now? Foi- fifteen years and it will he temporary yet. it is against the Manitoba Act, it is against the treatv of the XorthAVest, that this XorthAVest Council should continue to lie in existence and against the sjurit of the understanding. Have 1 anytliing to sav against the gentlemen wlio compose the Xorth-West Council .' X'ot at all. not more than 1 had to say yesterday against tiie jury and to say against the otlieials of this Court Avhom I I'espect all, liut I speak of the institutions. X'o, I sjieak of the institutions of the XovthWest. the Manitoba treaty has not been fuliilled, neithei' in regard to me, iieither in regard to jypine. Besides the jiopuiation of the Flalf-breeds who were in the troubles of tlie Norih Wes« t!io troaVdt>s of the X )ri!i WeU, w their two hundred and forty acres not light: for two hundred and for' " weri^ two societies wiio tn-ated ti. 1 Manitoba, in 1S70, and wiio have lieen found in ■ ighc had they to be there, have tliev not i'ecei\ed appose the lialf-breeds in Manitolia, in 1S70, did res of land, but it is to be undeistood that there .ler. One was small, but in its sriiidhu'^s it had its rights The other w.is gi-eat, but in its greatness it had no greater rig'nts than le rights of tiie small, because the right is the same foi- eM-ry one, and when the\ began by treatin.; the leader^ of tiiat small community as bandits, as outlaws, leaving then without protection, they disorganized tiiat community. The i-ight of nations wanted that tlie treaty of Manitoba should b;; fuliilled tovvards the little comnuinity of lied Fiiver, in the same condition that they were when they treated, that is the rii^ht of nation.s. and when t!i" treatv woidd have been fultilled towards the small community in the same state as it was when she treated, wlien the obligations would have been fuliilled, and the FFalf-lireeds might have gone to the North \V(>st, the Saskatchewan and have no rigiit to call fo)- any other things for themselves, although they had the right to heli> their neighbours, if they thouiiht tliut thev were in a bad tix, because charity islalwavs charity. Now I .say that the people of .Manitoba have not been satisfied, nor the leaders n: '^-lie, the Half br ed jieople, and becae.se they had not their rights, because the leadi'i's were ahv^ivs threatene.i in tli"ir existence. Tin people tliems<'lves did not feel any security, and they so'd their lands. Ik- -luse tliey thought they woulil never get, tirst, that 7th of lands, they so.d i.u ir laml> lie.Muse they saw that they had no protection, and they went East. What have they received, in vecei\ing the L'40 acres ? They have receiv(Hl ■_'!<) acres of land anl(l for fine liulf of the price •*")0 f)ri?10, f^(\() or s2-"i. And tosliow the stiito ill whidi tIicv liiivc lieoii kept, those who come from the lied liiver and tlie Half lin-eds of IJcd liiver, v.lio were in tlif Red River troulih- of 1S70, apjH'arcd tc lie a v.-oiidrr, of t'L,'otisni and of unreasonal)h'ues.s, lieeause tiiey appeared to l)e in tlie ti()iil)h's of iSS.'i, wliich arc tlie continuation of tlie trouldes of Ri'd Ri\er. 'Ihe anmosty lias not heeii ijivcn l>y tlic rij;lit jiarties. Amnesty lias not hccn Jiivcn to Lepinc. one of the leaders who was then as Duinont is to day and inys(>lf. I was- allowed to conif hack into the country when ten years after I would l)e com])leteIy deprived of the changes whi( h I lia.d in lS7(t (o do somethin;^ for my peojilc and for myself and for »'mi,i.'ratioii, so as to cut down luy iniluenct- forever. It is why I flid not come at that time, iUid 1 tliouiiht that 1 would never come to the country, hid J take my American pajiers? put my pa[iers of americau iiaturalixiiiion durini; *'ie time of my five years lianish- liient? No, I ('id not want to yivc to the States a citi/en of hanisliment, hut when iii)' ita- n this side of the line in will ijo to an American Court (I somewliere o I'.i^hmeut iiad cNpIred wjien an otiicer at I'.attlefoi ileuton invited me to come to tin- NorthA\'est. I said ; Xo, 1 vill declare mv intention now that I am in iio liack and choose another land, it >v('(] WW heart to sav tliit kind of adieu to iiiV mother, to mv th rirotiiei to mv sisters, to ni\' trunds, ro m\- contrvnii'ii to mv natnc and 111! t 1 felt thai comii lU' M.IC to thi;- auiti- eon I not re-enter it without pi'otestint;' a,i;'ainst all the injustice wliieh I had heen sulferiny' and in so doin;;' it was lenewin.y' a s(ru!j,nle w liicli I had not l.i'i'ii altle to continue, and as sound man as I tlnaiLfht 1 was I thnut,dit it lietter to Keijin a eareer on the otlcr side of the line. In Manitolia is that all ahout the amnestv ? N( \! Iiai'e 'f the 1. M '<•.(>( )(.! acres of land liave I received it? No, 1 have not receivec 1 it. .My frien.ls. my inothei- have ajipHed to have it, Xo. Could not every one else ai>ply for th"irs.' Fatia r. mother w<)uld apply for tlieir sons, and that was all rii;ht. liut foi' my mother M' .Ivf or me it wa'- ■]\[X auo. tliat vv s not. I did not ■j^cr it. l.,ast year, there was a proof here in the liox not hen T asked an iiidemnitv I was refused. Was that indemnitv hased on a fai lev wanted mv lands in ; .M mill la tf) )aid lieside: len tliev treated, the treatv was romjileied on olst Mav l>7t , it vv.as a^n'eed to on the :.'4th .luiie and Sir ( h'o. { 'aitier had said : " j..et Kiel govern the country until the troops ^et there." And from the l' tth .lune to the '2',]v(\ Aui4e,>t I y-overned the countrv in t'art. .\ii(i what was the rewar.l for it ? W'lu'ii tic ulornais :eneral Wo! seiey came, he rewardeu nie m saym;. iianditti las tai:e lliuht. and he wanted to come (lurinii- the niuht at midiiiL;ht so as to have a clianee. to V to rail for in the mol•ninl.^ hut heaven was iMise a row ill a:jiiiiist iiim then. It lit ( -arrv and to have the l;1oi rained so much that h(> cou!( 1 not yet there during' the nit;ht he had t< n left the et come I, it ten o\:dock next morning, he entered one door of Ft. Carrv while I [ keiit ill si'dit of him. I sn;:i!l did not wi'.i t to he in liis ro;'.d. 'nut as know tlia! he 1 lad •ves I sav I will keen ai a distance wlu-re 1 can he seen, and if he wants to nave me Ih' will coim (ieiicral knows where his eniiemv is, outjht to km and 1 laicen t alioui lUO vai'i aiieao oi liiiii. he was savin ht. Kiel was vcrv near. That W lieen mv icvvari that lile iiandii ti had i,t .■^:i.').(Ht(i to eal exau'erat in:;' v(air for somethiiu;' to complete t le 1. W 100.000, en 1 speak of an indemnitv dont lielieve that I am lonor. in \>7 i the F niaiis came in J'emhina. Major Irvine, one of the willM'Sses, 1 Was int r< '• ; Ucec ( Jovc'-nor Arcl door to -Manitoli:'.. and forward, vvc will iivotect him. { to him. .\nd when I hrouudit to the (iovernmeiiL L'oO men, liliald was there auxions to have mv help ) hecause ho he said as tli. ;ii( luestion ot iiiniie.srv cime, he sa as we need iiini. we vvil iin itect 1 tour la circon um, i)U stance; actuelh we >w that we were the id : " If Riel comes v\ ill iii'otect mm, as lom. need him, we want d 1 him to tal iiac lad lieen hroimht hecause it t as soon as we dont want him, us soon as we won't k in lh(> same position as he is to day ". And that answer represented that wiiile 1 would be heljiini;- the heen ill the hack Pou r la circons- (Jovcrnmeiit the parties would l>e trying to shoot iiu tance actuelle'.t hey said, "we will protect liim". Wh t reward have I had for that.'' Thetirst reward that 1 had was that that took {ihu-e in the lirst days of Uctolier liSTl l.efore the year was ended. Of ccjurse they gave a chance to Riel to come out, a rebel had a chance lobe loyal then. .My friend, 'my glorious friend in I'pper Canada, now the leadei of the (J ppositinii. .Mr. IJlakesuid: "We must pre vent Riel from arriving."' When he was .Minis- 11 HJ-2 ^ t^i' in Kiii't'i" f'iiniula lie issiit d a )ir()oliUiiatioii of §."(,()()() for those \\]\<\ would arrest Rid. That was mv rowaril, luy dowry, iliit thi' ( 'aiiadiaii ( io\ I'rminMit what reward did tlicv "'i^'" ""' • J" ^'"' '"'^f yt'fii' there \\as yoiiin' to he an eU'etioii, \X~'2. If Kiel remains in tlie eountrv for the eleetioi s it will he troiilde and lie has a i'iL,dit to speak, we haves made a treaty witli him, we do not fuilil it, we |iromise him amnesty, he is outlawed, wo take his eountrv and iu' lias no room even to sleep, he eomes to our help he y;o\crns the c'onntrs' during' two months, and 'he reward is thi! lie is a Wanditti, he comes to the help of the (iovernment with two hundred and tity men, and the I'eward is !i\e thousand dollars for his lu'ad. It is ai that tiiue that 1 took the name of l)avid, and I did not take it of mvself, the liouoi'aMe .Indue of theeourt of .Manitoha, M. I)ul)uc to day. is the one who ^•a\e uie the name of |)a\id. When 1 had to hiih> mys<'lf in the woods, and when he wanted to \\rite me under the name which wouhl not lie known, so that my letters conU? eouie to me, and 1 may say that in liiat way it is a leuai name. l''rom that ]K)int of view ev«'n, and I put in a parenthesis. W \\\ '. 1 innc a riirht, I think, as a s(ju\cnir of my fi'iend ill l'pi>cr Canada, who caused tlic circumstanees. who liroui;lit lue that name, to nia,ke somethiii\' special aliout it, and, oesides, when the kiiuj; of .ludea was spealuni;- of the pu- hlii' services of 1 >:ivid's, didn't he use to refer to him in that way. Yes he did and as somethiiii,' similar, I thouu'ht that it was only jiroper that I should take the name of *• Daxid", lait it was su.u'^ested ti^ me in a mit;lity manner, and I could not avoid it. 'J'lie Canadian ( JoxcrniiKMit said: "Well. lii(d will he in the elections hen' and he will ha\c all the riylit with all those ,i,'rie\aiices to speak, and he will eiuharass the (Iovernment." Ho thev calle i uj)!)]! my i.'reat )irotei-tor Archhisho]) 'Pachc. and they sain t know what, hut in the month of I'ehruary "72, Archhisho]) Taclie came to me. and >aid : "The authorities of TjO\\ or ('analic,as the puhlic are speakint; to nio.'" lUit the Archhishop ua\t' such ijood reasons that althoui^h I ooidd not yield to these reasons, I came to a conclusion with him and I said: *' My Lord, you ha\e titles to my ackiiowledi,'ement which shall never he blotted out of my heart, and although my judgment in this matter altogether ditl'ers wui. yours, I don't consider my judii'ment above yours, and what se(Miis to me reasonabh^ niinht be more reasonable; altlit)Ugh 1 think my I'ourse of action reasonable, jierhaps yours is more reasonable." 1 said: "If you command me as my Archbishop to go and takt' on your shoulders the responsibility of leaving my people in the crisis, I will go. I>ut let it be kiKJwn that it is not my word, that I do it to please you, and only after you command me to do it — to .show that in polities when I am contradicted, I can give way.'' And they oH'er me 10 pounds a month to stay on the other side of the line. I said to liis Lordshiji: "I have a chance here in Manitoba and 1 wantsomi'thing.'" He asked mo how much 1 wanted, and I said : "How long do you want m(> to stay away?" " Well, he said, perhaps a year." " I tell you beforehand that 1 want to be here during the elections." That is Avhat 1 asserted ; ''i want to lie here during the elections"'. And it was agreed that they would give i^UU pounds: 100 jxuinds to Ijcpine and 100 pounds to me ; ."500 ])ounds to me per- Konnally. .^00 pounds for Lepiiie ; 1 00 pounds for my fa'aily, 100 pounds for Lepine's family, that makes SOO pounils. And how was it agreed that I should receive that money ? 1 said to his Lordship: "The Canadian ( Iovernment owe memoney, they libel me; and even on the (piestion of libel, they do it .so clearly that it does not mean any trial to come to judgment ; they ha\ c judgment and will they make use of it ? They owe me some- thing for my rejiutation that they abuse every day, besides I have done work and they have ne\er paid me for it : I N\ill take tliat money as an account of what they will lia\e to ])ay ae one day ". It was agreed in tliat manner, and the money was given to me in the chapel of St. N'ital in the i)resence of Mr. Duhuc, .ludge now, and when — 1 did not know at that time where the money came from — and when the little sack of ;500 jioundsof gold was liande1 iiic ; t rial to ic soiiio- tlicy liavo ic in tho )t know of ;;()1(1 iiH' wlio iiic, tliis lie. But Ucforc the cltH'tioii jiulilic opinion was so cxciicd .i^uinst the one tliat hud tiili- went on in 1^71 and it was not i'lanmu-ated, as loin;- as Kiel was iiiere, with his po|)ularity. If the proper insi itiit ions had heeii inaiiLjuraled lliel wonhl hivt! come in ihe House, ihe i'rosiiicial House and of coiirsi' it was considered to he a dama,ii;e. So to keep mi' liaclv- they diil not ,L,dv<^ ilie peo[ile their riL;his, when it was consti- tmionnally a;;reei| they should ha\-e done. 1 stru,n'uie(| not only for myself, i'ut I struiii,decl for the ri,L!,lils, for the inauguration of tlu^ jirineip'es of resjionsible and constitu- tional ,i;o\ernniiut. in .Manitoha. That was considered ahout the time that [ was iianished. While I w;is in the rnited States, was I xerv hippy ? Yes, f was \ cry h.'ipjiy to liiid a refuse, I ait I ha s e met men who ha ve cume to nie .se\ (M'uI times and say : "J I ere ! Ijook out ! Here is a man on the other sidi; of the line and he is tryini,' to ha\ o a revenjjfe at you, when you lio water your horse.'' IJecause they had left stains, as much as [tossihle, on my naiiH', I c(ai!d not even water my horse on t lie Missouri, without Keinu; .yuai'ded a^iilnst those who wanted m\' life, and it is an irony for me that I sliould he c.illed l)a\id. Last year, when 1 was in\ ited instead of comiiiif to this country, I could with the [ilan that has ap})eare(l lo me, 1 could lia\'e communicated with the [''eniaii ornanixation, I coukl ha\ e sent my iiook, I did not do it, and as a judof of it, while I ha\ c no means at all to coni- muiiicate with my hrother, you will see in .Maiiitolia lettiavs to my iirotliei' .)ose])h, wliero I speak of my hook, that 1 could , it — with all the respect that I liavi; for the lOm^lish population —to the Angio-Saxon riice. Wedid not give it only to ihe.Vnglo Saxon raccTliere is the Irish in the East and the French in the west, and their jiroportioii in the Canadian government ought to receive a reasonable pi'opoi'tion of this land which is liought here, and it is hardly the same to gi\e to some French Can idians ii, the NortliAVest, and none at all to the Irish. [ don't speak here to call the syiiipathi(>s, because 1 am sentenced, 1 sjieak sound sense. I followtMl the line of natural and i-easonable sympathies, but behind my thought, perhaps you would be inclined to beliexc tlait it i a way for me to try to work against the English. No, I don't. 1 belie\-e that the I'lnglish constitution is an institution »liicli has been perfected tor the n.itions of thi' world, .and whih; 1 speik of having in future, if not dtiiinu- my lifetime, after it, of having ditl'erent nationalities in the NortliAVest here, my hope that they can suc( eei I is that thev h lave here anioiu them tin great Aii'do-S: ixon raci', as among the Roman people were the leailing r the nations of iMirope. Two thousand years ago, ic! and were teaching to the other nations good 104 <;()\t'i'uiii('iit, lliJit is uiy opinion of tlic Anylo-Siixoii liicc. 1 am not insane t'lioiioli ((► I'f'j^ret tlic jfroiit ylorv of tlic An;.'l<)-Siixon race. (. i.; !\ity in Imiiinn^ that that plan will he fultiiled ? I will speak of ih(M\ish of myhi'arl. ! ha\i ' 'U, in what is calletl, asserted To lie \\ roiiii' ti day. 1 hiive heen proved to lie the leader, i . ope that hefoi'e loni; that \'erv same thin;;' whii-h was said wroni;' will lie known as Ljood and then 1 will remain tlie leader of i*^ and as the leader of what 1 .'ini doini;^ I say my heart w ill nexcr aliandon the idea oi ha\ in;;- a now island in the North-West, liy constituiional na-ans, in\itiii;;' the Irish ()f the other side of the sea to come and have a share here : a new I'oland in the Korth-West, hy the same N\ay; a new liasaria, in the same way: a new Italy in the same Avav. And on the other side in Maiutoha andsiia^e .Manitolia hasheen erected it has heen increased since ISTU. at least hy '.).()0(),00U acres of land, now it is '.IC, 01)0.000 say there is about SG.OOO.OOO, acres of land to which the Half-breeds title has iu)t lieen extinguished OneseNcnth yiN'cs 1"_',0(H),IJ00, of those huuis- and 1 want French-tJana- dians to come and help us there to-day. to- Korrow I don't know when. 1 am called here to answer for my lift^ to have tiuH' that 1 should make my testimony. And on the other sid( of the mountain then-are Indians. as [ ha\e said. I'.nd l!alf-l)reed.-> and tlni'e is a beautiful island \'anc(ai\'er and I thiidv the Itcdgians h *1'1' tl ere and the .1 e'.vs wlio are lookiuii' for a countrv for ISOO years, the knowledg'- of which the nations ha\i' not bcei able to attain vet. while thev arc rich and the 1 Ol'; )f til ('rhai)s w il tiie\' h(>ar niv \'oice one dav and on the other side of the niirintains while the wascs of the I'acitii ■ill chant sweet music for them to console their hearts for the mou rninu' of ISOO vears. perhaps will they say : lie is the one thought of lis in the whole C'rce world and if they helji us there (iu the other side between the gr<>at Paciiit' and the great Rockies to lia\ the .lews from the States ? Xo, w hat J a snare, wish is th" natural coui-se of inmnuration that is what I want. My thougts are for [leuce. During llie (H) days that I ha\c been at iSatoche 1 told you yesterday that, they were three delegations ap[)ointed by the ex-o\ cde to send on the other side for help, but there I did not .see the safety that 1 was looking for, not that J dist rust mv countr^> men ; but such a great re\ )luti ion will linng immense disaster.s and I Ion t wan t (1 ^ast(•rs except those which I am bound to bring to end mv own life and to .avoid, to take awav from mv couiitr\' disasters which threaten uring mv life to biiii^' di defi lue and mv frieiuls and those ,ho 1 ia\ e contiileiice 111 n ilKl (Ion al landoii my an- cestors either Tl le acknowledgement that J have for my an cestors, my ancestors wei^e among those vvho (•aine from Scandinavia and the I»ritish Islands 1000 years ago, some of them went to Limei-ick and were called Rielson and then crossed in Canada and they were called Kiel, .so in me there is the Scandinavian and well rooted there is tlie Irish, and there is the French and there is some Indian biood. The Scandinavians if possible they will ha'.e a share. It is my plan it is oik; of the illusions of my insanity, if .1 am insane, that they should have on the other side of the mountain a new Norway, a new Denmark and a new Sweden so that those who spoke of the lands of the great North West to be divided in seven forgot that it was in ten, the Fri'uch in 31aniU)lia, the Jlavarians the Ita- lians the Poles a:id the Irish in the North-West and then tiv(; on the other sid(> too. i have written those things. Since I am i n lail th lose things have passinl tlirougli the th hands of Captain Dean. There they are in the hands of the Lieutenant Covernor, and something of it has reached Sir .John, I think. I don't know. 1 did hide my thoughts. 1 want through the channel of natural emigi-ation or peaceful emigration, through the channel of constitutional means to start the idea and if ])ossible to inaugurate it, but if I can't do iv during mv life. 1 leave the ideas to lie fuHilletl in the future and if it is not Hi; li tlie iiixl Hits, I Jrli the huit if is not possililf, yitii lire iciisonaltlc nirii und you kiiDW tiui* tin- pliins tlml I ihoikim- iirc nt' iiii inmn'iisc iiitcrrst nnd it' it is not if tint iiciU'cftil rlianiu'l of (Miii;,n';itioii is not open to those I'acfs into tlic North-West, tiicy iirc in siu'h lunnliff in the Stiitrs tiiat uhcn you "xpcct it least they will jicrliajis (it to conii' on your hofders and to look at the land whether it is wor'th paying a \ isit or not, that is the onese\enth of the lands, that is ahout the oius-Hcventh of the lands. So you see that liy the very nature of the evidence which has lieen ;,'iveii here when the witnesses speak of the one .s.\ enfh of the lands, that very sanu' (pn-siion orii,'i nates from 1S70, from the trouhlcs of riey the |n'opei' authorities, out amongst the prope auclr . ie: of I'ourse 1 count the iMiulish authorities, that is the llrst pi'oper am lioiat les, mission he appointed, that that c /umission examines into i his (|nesti)( Ta.'h reported to lie the money of Sn ■ It '"'y aic ir; ■' irst on mi . d,ei< r of Uiei received n, was it eorrnprion money.' Ith When Kiel seized with tli' Council of lied lliver on the pro- perty of the lUidsf)!! May. Coy, if he did a c(>ninion jiillaife fi'oni the House as a fui;itiveof justice in 1S71. was Ik When Hiel was expellcfl fu'dtive of justice, as at that time he hatl thrnii'rh the niemhei' foi' llochelatra now in Canad; I, am I throuuh Dr. Fiset had c(unmuiiication with the (lover nuMuher for I lochela,i;'a. .Mr. Alphonse I )esj;':(iin- nilieli t. hut another time throu,i,di th iiav (' asked troni Minister of •lu-ticc an interview on the fourtli of Marc 1, ar tliat interview was refused to me. In the month of .\[iril, I was e\)ie|lcd from tin }{ ouse 1. eiane vvas ai'i'i ■sted ill is;:}. am 1 1 nut. not h 'causi' tl lev (Inl not want to take nn". .And while I vvas in the woods waiting' for my election. Sir .lohn sent pai-ties to me otlerinu- me s:^"),000 if T vvonld leave thi> ciamtrv for three years, and if that was enoii^di to say what 1 wanted, and that I nii^lit ta,ke a trip over the watei- iiesKles an( not I ovei' tl le woi Id. At the t ime I refusefl it. This is not the tirsr time that the !?'i-"),OUU eonu's up, and if at that time I refnseil it. was it not should think it a sound souvenir to Sir Jol ni Am I \ ou don't mean to insu It nu' wlien vou declai'c im i'eas(Mial(ie for nu' that I in^uitniu'.' No, I do not insult. :'uiltv, vou act accnrdinir to vour Ui convictions. I also act accordinn' to mine. 1 s]ieak true. 1 .-.ay they should try me on this (piestion I Whether I rehelled in the S;iskatchewan in ISS." Tl! ere is another iK'stion 1 want to have on tria il. I wish to 'V e trial that would cover tlie sjiacc th fifteen years on which public opinion is not satistied. I have, without meani lu of any )ft' orlence I have heard without meaniim' any otience, when 1 spoke of om^ of the articles 1 m eiitimied. some iieiitlemen liehind me sav'in Y.s 1 le was a murderer. ou see w hat remarks I It shows there is some(hin>:- not told. If tohl liv law it wcnild not lie 1 wish to have my trial, as I am tried t'(ir hoth, and my career should he tried, not the hist pai't of it On the otl he guilty of high treason and I give myself as a prophet ot' the i of high treason 1 say 1 sion sits on one side, a co III tried for niv caret tlier side 1 nil de(daref lew world If r I wish 1 to niiltv am aiii tin nroMiiet o f tl i(> new worn 1. I WlSll that Willie a comnns- am sane whether [ am a prophet or no Avhether I am a deceiver or an impostor, I liavesai iiimission of doctors should al^o sit and e.xnminc fully whether 1 ot ins-uiity. hecause it is disposed of. hut I to niv hiwvers ; " 1 have written things ,hich were .said to me last night, and which have taken place to-day." I said that before the Court opened last night the s].irittliat yuides and assists me told me : -'The Court will HI ak an eifort. our i lonor, allovN nu to.sj ik ot vour cnar,;e. hid, appeal ed tii im to -^fo on one side. The Court, made an eli'ort, and 1 tliink that word was justitied. At th A commission will sit : there will lie a 1 asked for it. same tiniv^ there vvas another (hint;' said to nu commisMon. I did not hear vet that a commission is to take placi on will .sec it 1 am an impostor tin rehv The doctors will say, when 1 sjieak of these Ml tliiiiu"<. 'A Ii"tli<'r [ iim (Irci'is iiiLf. It' tlry sav I am di'cciv iui,', I iiin not mi iMi|in.sti»r ]ty will. I iiiiiy l)(i (liM'liu'cd iiisaiH' liccaiisr I seek an idea wliiclidriN t's nic (o sonu'tliinLt i'i,:,'Iit. I tell yon, in all what 1 say, in most tliin<,'.s I do, I do accoi'din;^' to wlir.t is told to inc. In i'.aloclii' ninny tlnn^'s w liifli I said liaxc already liaiiprncil. Il wns said to me: " N'ol far from licic." And tlialis why 1 ni'\<'r WMiilcd to send the Jliilt'liiccds far. F \vantclaoe a"d yon will see we had to meet general Mi they have declared me insane and th(>y will show if (here is in me tlie cliarai;ter of an impostor. If they declare me insane, I have lieen astray. I have lieen astray not as an imiiostor, hut accordin;,' to my conscience. Your Flonor that is what 1 have to say. ]\Fh. .FuSTICK IiU'llAUDSON, Louis Kiel, after a Ion;; consideration of your case in which you have heen defended with as great aliility as I think any counsel could liaNc (h^fended you with, you have lieen f(jund hy ajury wl\o haxc shown, I might almost say, unexampled patience, guilty of a. crinu", the most |>erni( ious aial greatest that man can I'ommit ; you have heen found guilty of high treason, you ha\'e lieen pro\cd to haxc let loose the Hood gates of rapine and liloodshed, you lia\c, with such assi^tance as you had in the Sa>;katcliewan country, Jiianaged to arouse the Indians and have i.rought rtiin an.l misery to many families whom if you had simjils left aloiu', were in comfort and many of them were (jii the road to atlliience. For whiit you did. the remarks yo-i hasc made form no excuse wliate\ (H', for "wliat you ha e done the law re(|uires you to answer. It is true that the.lury in m<'rciful consideration, ha\e asked IFer .Majesty to gi\e your ease such nierciftil eonsideiation as she can hestow upon it. I had almost foi-gottcn that those who are defending you have jilaced in my hands a notice that the ohjection Avliich they raised at the opening of the court must not he forgotten from the records in onl(>r that, if they see (it. thay mny raise the can suggest or ad\ ise you is to prejiarc to meet your end, that is all the advice or suggestion 1 can otl'er. Ft is now my painful duty to pass tlie .sentenci' of the court ujion y(ni and that is (hat you he taken now from here to the pol ice guard roiun at 15 hicli is the jail and the place from whence you came, and that you lie kept there till tlr- ISth Sejitemhcr next, and on the ISth Sejitemher next yon he taken to the place ajypointed for your exectition and there he hanged hy tlie neck tilF you Lir e dead. And mav . iO( 1 1 lave niercv on vour sou \ A I* V K \ I) I \ . KXIlllilT No. 1, DatiH-lic. JiitllS '• |)\VI1) '' lllKL, K\ - j May iL'th IsS".. •;'^''- AV/,— I aiM anxious to avni.l |>.'i. To Major Cro/.i rr, ( 'oiiimaiidaiit nt' tin' iiolirc t'oi'iT at ('.nllnii and I >at I lct'ni'( M, O.I' • micilha's of llie \\ri)\ INlnlial ''n \ rriiini'iit nt' till' Saf>katrlii'\\aii Iih\( the iioiior to foinimiMiratf to voii the t'oll.iwiiii; fondit ions of siin-cndfi' : v on \vi I. i|ilii'('d to nivc lip coniidi'tclv the situation >viurli the ( 'anadian ( Joxcrnnicnt iia\i' placed n von in, a t Carlton and I! ittict'oi'd, to'Ttlwr with all ''ovcrnniiMit proiicrtics prop ill lie S(>t tree on voiir narolc ot' honor |i In iM'^f ot acc'cptani"" ym and your nun \vi keep the peace. And those \lio will chose to leave the country will lie tiiiidsind with teams and jii'ov isions to reach (,>u'.\ I'l' In case of non-acceptance, wc intend to attack you \\lien to morrow the Loi'd's day is over; and to commence without tlelay a war of extci'nunation upon all those wlio have sh own tla'mselves hostde to oiu' riLiiits. treat. Messrs Charles and Maxime Lepine are the ^'entlein'Mi with whom you will ha\c t- .Major, we respect you. Let the cause of humanity Ke a consolation to you for the reverses which tlie governmental uiiscoridui't has lirouyht iijion you,. Loii.s D.vvii) KiK !•; \o\e(le Ki';.\i'; P.\m:N'ri:Ai', C/m (."ii.\i!i,i:s Noi.iN. ( J.MMMKI, Dl'MONT. .Moisi; ( )ikm,i;ttk. Aijn;i!r Monkm.w. UaITISTK I'.oVKI!. DONAI.K HosS. Amadm: .loiiiN. I n/ii )i. Jkan -UaI'IISTK Paukntkai'. PlKUliK IJKNKV. Amjkkt |)i:i.oi!Mi;. Da.m. (.'a nun: hi;. Ma.mmk Lki'ink. BaKIISTK I5<)1( IIKIt. David Toikonh. PlI. (!AUN0T. Sri-i-ftll I'll. To Me- ■\i Major Crozier acceeds to the comlitions of surrender, let him ii.se the followin.i,' formula and no other ; " because I love my neiirhhour as myself for the saki of (fod, and in prevent liloodshed and principally the Mar of extermination m liicli threa tens the rountry, I ayree to the aliiive comlitions of surrender." ;lf the Major wi-ites this formula and siyns it, inform him we will receive him and his men, mondav. Yours, Lot IS I>Avii) Tiir.L. J{ .xovi'Cle "■(/. >S.). sc tlic siiki- hrcji- II and Kill KXIIIIilT N... (i. A ciiliniiity liiis fullt'ii upon t|i.. (ouiidy yi-stcrdny. Von hit ri'spimsilil.- t\)y it licfin'r ( !iiil and iiH'ii. Voni' n lannuf I'laim tliat tln-ir iiitfntinns wnc pivn ddi« sinrc tlu-y \s»'rc' l.riiiKini^ aloiin .MnM(tii>. And tlicy tii'rd many >linis tiist. (Ii)(l liiiH pli'nHcd t(t yrant ns the vicrcny ; and as mir nii.\riiicnt is to ,ii\t' our i'i;;lits, our \i(tory is yood ; und vm- oU'rr it to tin- Aiinis^ditv. .Major, we art- ('liri>tians in war as in |HMr.'. We ^vn^,' (o you in tlif uann' of 4 iod and ot" liunmnity to cnnir and lake away ynur drad u lium we n'spcft. Coinc and take tlicni tomorrow littori- noon. \\ (• ini'losc lici'ciii r'tipy lit' .1 iTsolulion .id.o|i(cd to day Uy tjic rcprcsentit' i\t'i ot' tlic l''irncli I lalt'-lirci'ds. rue <'o|iy I'li. «.;. KXIIIIilT N... 7. I'o TMi': ii.si.r ni;i;i;iis ok i.aki' i^f'vri'Ki.u:. ('/'Ill iiililriss i.\ III Fi-i iii-li iiiiil ill' li III r ill K mill. -ill.) Dnir i-iliiliri-), W'f lia\c i ho |)lfa..iii'c to Ift \o'i know tliat on tlu' 20tli of Inst niontii, (Jod lias i;i\rii w: a \ iriory o\f'r tin- nionntcil |)oii(M'. Thirty lliilt'-lirccds and Hvf Crcc iiidiiiiis lia\f me! Imndrcd and thirty |)Iun-cs us deeper and ileeper ev cry day litis, throuirh tlie nu'rcy of ( lod, struck us with leiioi'. and fri'^iileiieii us more of this hell whore the monnred police and the (iovernment ai'c trvini^' to drive us openly than we are of their tire lueis, which after all can hut d e^t rov our lioi ot our heart s a von'c w Iiu'U sani lies, lii oui' alarni, we have heard from the bottom dust ice comiiiaiids you to take up anus." Dear relatives and friends, we iulvise vou to he on vour -uard. lie readv to face all events. Take witli von all the India ns, gather them from al 'verv store whei'cver it is. (Jrumhle. yro elves u nik'i- the keepin,i,'of the Holy Vir^dn 170 Pray to S(. .loscpli for \w is nil powci'fiil with (lod. Iin|»Ior(' tho ]u)\vorful intorccssion lit' St. .Ii';iii-l!ii|)t iste, the icloiioiis ])iiti-oii saint of the ( ';iiiii(li;iiis and ot' the Ilalt'-brcods. .Make yoiic iM'acc witli < Jiid. ( llii'V his (.•oniniandnicnts. Wi- ask Ilini to lie amongst you and to make you 8iU'i'i'<'il. Try to (.•ninnmnicatc as soon as jiossilih* to tlio Ilaif-liri'i'ds and Indians at I<'oi( I'itt. the news we send vmi. And i"ll tiicm to ho on thcii' L,'iiit'''l. ''• ''•' it ad v to taco all ovcnts KXIIIIUT X... it. TO TIIK IIAI.F-liKEKDS, TO Till' IM>1 ANS. lO llli; IIAl.l llUKKDis AND TO I I.K INDIANS \r l-dlM liAl A I I.I.K AN D VICIM 1 N [T raiislat'.on 1 I)i iir iii-ilhr' II iiii'l iliiir r'/nfin d. Since wo ha\(> wi'itton, ini]ioitant thiiiifs lia\t> occiirrt'd. Tho jmiHcc oamo to attark us. Wo uict tlicni and (Jod has nivcn us a viotory. Thirty Halt'-ln'oods and tivo fndians stood tho llii'it against I'_M) men and at'tor .'5."") tn 40 miiiutos. tho latter ran away, .loin us iu Idossln.i,' (!(>d t'(U' the sueeoss whieh Ho hav had ^he eliai'ity to faxdr lis with. liise u|i, t'ai'e the eneniy and it' you can, take I'ort Uataiile. Ilestroy it. Sa\e all tho' goods and |iro\isions and eomo and join us. Yoit are in sulliei'nt nuudiei's to send us perhaps a detaidinient iO or oO strong. .Ml that you do. do it t'oi- the sak<> ot" (lod, luider the kee|)ing of .lesus-l 'hrist. the Holy Nirgin. St-.loseph and St .rean-l'>a))tiste and i." sure that l''ai*h works wonders. Loiis |)AViD IliKi., l"2.\ovede. (in pencil) Signed liy the nieniln'rs of th(» (.'oinicil. KXHIIUT Xo. ]{\ In Mv iii;i;riii;i:N nii; i;ni.i,i.-ii and i'i;i:\cii iiAi,i'-nHi;r.Ds ok i.aki: t^f ai'I-ki.lk and \ ICINITV. [Translatiuii.] D'lir riliihi-'s eds of the Saskatchewan -ido with us openly. The [ndians are coming and join us on all sides. Uuy all the munition you can. do anil get some, if ueeessary, on the other side of the line. P.e ready. Do not listiui to the otl'ers that the Ottawa government will try to sulmiit to you Tliese olVers are those of thieves;. 1 )on't sign any papers or jietitions. Trust in (Jod Almighty. rccssioii '-breeds. yst V(U1 )it Pitt. 1 events ICIMl V isjs ]i;i\ e \ ietorv. IT I).") (il ss wliicli •im. tiike us. You All that ,■ Virgin. ovede. IK M,K AM' you till' cuioriiil irs and . Its L'lltV 1>V s. 'T\u' leir liiid ty wlicn Oil ! my isuri' i-- you will us and ijiossiMf openly, in. <'0 listen to )■(■ tliosr 171 Saint Autoine, .Mandi "J.'W'd., ISSTi [ Tr(in.'c prepared to come and help us if necessary. Take all the company s munitions. K.VIIir.IT No. 12. [ TranfiJatl()ii\ Depend on (!od and on the circumstanccN that rrovideiice actually lirin,!.,'.-> forth in the Saskatchewan. We shall not forget you. If jiromises are hidd forth to you, .say that the rime for ))romi.ies is jiast. We have reached a pass that compels us to refpiire pi'oofs for evei'v tliiiiy;. Prav. he i;()od, ohey (uid's coniniaiidments and nothinu \vill fail V'ou. KXiiir.rr No. i:}. Di'iu- f'/xdr'-i, Wi- thank you foi' the .^ood iiev.s that you took the troidile to send us. Since you are williiii,' to help us, may (Jod hless you in all what is to he done for our common salvation. Justice commantls to take up anus. And if you see tlu' police jiassm-- hy. stop it and take away theii' arms. AftfM-wards notify the W\iod Indians that lliey iiiiyht he sui'priscd : let them lie ready to all events, in heint; calm and couraj^eous to take all the powder, the shot, the lead the ]>osts and the cartridsics from the Hudson's Bay stores, at Nut Lake and Fishinir Lake. l>o not kill aiiyhody. Do not molest nor illtreat anyhody. Fear not, hut take away the arms. Louis " D.wm" KiF.L. 172 EXHIBIT N.). 1+. (/< n'/i',iini,— T]ic coiuuMlIdrs of the Halt' liroods, now uiulpr ai'ins at Rt. Antliony, have riTi'ivi'd youi' iiu's.siii,'(' ot" the L'L'nd of .Miircli, ISS"). They tlmnk you for tlic syinp.itliy witli wliicli you liouor tluMii even in tin's i-risis, and of wliicli you liaM' ^ivcn anqilc proof ln't'orc. Situated as \ on are, it is dillieult foi' you to apju-ove (imniodiately) of (»ur l)old but just uprising,', and you iiave lieen wise in your couise. (♦"anada (Ottawa) l>as followed witli us neither tlie prinntlenien. that the Half-hrecds ha\ e i^i -at inliuence o\or tliem. If the had mana;.'ement of Indians atl'airs hy the Canadian ( io\ frinnent has lieen tiftei'n years without residtiui; in an outhreak, it is due only to the Half-Iiree(|s who ha\c up to I his time pei'suaded to keep ipiiet lUit now that the Indians, now that even oui'sehrs are compelled to resoit to arms, how can we tell them to keej) (piiet ? We are sure that if the MnL,dish and Ki'eiuh I la!f lireeds mute well in this time of crisis not only can we ( ontrol the Indiins lait we will also ha\ e their weij^ht (Ui our side in th(> lialance. (lentlenien, please do not I'cmain neutral Imu- the loxc of (;()d. help us to saxc the Saskati-hewan. We sent today a lunnlier of men with .Mr .Monkman to lii'ip and support (under as it is just ) the cau^-e of the iiliori.yinal Half lireeds. I'ulilic necessity moans no oH'enee. Let us join \\illin:,dy. The aliorii;inal Half hreeds w ill understand that if we do so uuich for their interest, we are entitled to their naist hearty response. \ ou ha\e acted admiraMe in set id inn' copy of y(air resolutions to ('arhon ;is well a.s to St. .\nthony. We con.-ider that we havt> only two enncMuies in The frencli ] lalf-l»'eeds lielie\e ihat th(>y are only two enemies, Co.^hen and ( 'arlton. Dear lirerhren in .lesns-Christ let us avoid the ndstakes of the past. We consider it an admirahle act of, it has iieen an a well united the police will surrendei', and t'onie out of t'arlton as thehei I s heat causes the chicken to come out of the shell A stroi^^; union hetween the Frencli Anie of M Unit. Iia\ e au( 1 English llalf-lii-eeils is the onlv guarantee that there will he no lilood .shed. KXIITDIT No. 1.-^. ResoUed lirst that. When England ,i;ave that country to the 11. V> Co. two hund- red years an'o, the North- West l>elouf,'ed to France as history shows it. And when the treaty of I'aris ceded t'anafla to Enifh^iid no mention of any kind was made of the Xoitli-West. As the American English ( 'oloiiies helped I'.nyland to coiHiuer Canada they ou;,'lit to have a share of conquest and that share ou'jht to he the Xorth West since counneivially and politically the I'uiced States (luvernmeut liave done more for the North-Wesi tiiat' evt'r Emiland did. (> that H' moil s work .1.. vrdc. U" lu'Il's It'iull > liund- kiml u,-lit to ivially si tliai' 173 Ilt'solvt'd first, tliat our union is and always will Ik* most i'os[)(vtuous towards the Amorifan (Jovernciiicnt, tlioir polic-y.tlicii- intorcst, and towards tin! tcn'itorial ^'oxcnimcnt of Montana as well. Second. That our union will (•jn'ct'iilly avoid causinn- any ditlicuHy whatever to the l'nit(Ml States, and \\'ill ^not coidliet in any way with the eonstitufion and laws fit" the ,i,'overnment, it is douhtful whether Kn;;laiid really < '.lis the North-West heeause the tirst act of '•■overnmen' that lMi;j;land e\er acconiiilished o\cr that North-West was to ),dve it as a ]>rey to tin sordid monopoly of the llud-- in Hay Company (I'OO) two luindreil years and. Mei' second ,.,01' of i;o\ crnmcnt of any importance i)\cr that ccamtry, \as to L;i\<' it in iJ^TO as a pray to the (Amadiaiis. Our union is and always will lie must r"spectful tnwirds i|ie Amerii'an. Annexation. Against iMiylanil and I tome. Manitoha. French Canadians. KXHIBIT \... Ki 'I"he {•reiicii 1 1 alf lireiMl memhers of the pro\isional l;ii\ enimeiil of the ."-^askiuilicuaii, ha\(' separated from Ikome imd tlw; i;ie,U mass of the jieojile lia\f done the siiine. it tiar priests s\'ere \,illiin; to help us and up to tlii^ time our jiriests haxc -how u tlicniseUcs uiiw illii'.^ to leave Uoiiie. Tlii'V wish to i;()\ern us in a maimer opposed to oiu' interest and ( liev v. ;sh to coiitiiiui' and ;;'(iverii us aecordiuL;- to i he dirt;ites of Leo the lath. |)ear lirotiier'- in .le-iis ' 'lirisl. lor the >ake ot (IimI. come and help n^ -.o thnt that "nter|)rise an:(iiist Iioiih' iiia\' We a success, and in return we wdl I'o ;dl unr power lo se- cure our political rights. KXHir.i'l' N... 17. /)-•(//•;•< '/^//(V'.N, -We have the pleasure to let you Unow thai, on the li'ltii of last montli, (!o(l MS given us a vicfoi-y over the mounted police. Thirtv-ti'.e ilalf-lireeds and some live ta- si\ Ci'ee Indians have met hinnli"d and twi'iity poiicemen and volunteers. 'I'lianks t(» (iod wc Irne lU-fe.Ued them, ^'ourselves dear relati\es, l,e courageous. Do what vou can.' If it is not done, take the stores, the pi'o\ isions and the imiiiitiiais. And without delay come this way as many as it is possihle. Send us news. LoLis '• D.wii) ■■ ltii;[„ Kxovede. MoisK ( UKi.i.i'.rii:. .r B.vPTisTK liorcni'.i:, OoN.vi.i) Koss. IVM'TISTI-: P.MiKNTK.VU. Maximi". LkI'INK. CuAiU.Ks Thottiku Damask CAiii;ii:i;i:. Kvr lAMKt- ('M.i.MrAO.V!:. I-'iKiiiii: Hi;m;y. Pii;nuK ( ;ai;ii:i'V. Ai.iir.irr .Monk man. Amiu!OIsk Joiux. The mounted police are making preparatioufe for an attack, they are gatheiang them selves in one force and no iclay should exist, come and reinforce us. 174 EXHIBIT No. IS Siiiut-\iitoine, April Htli., 1S85. To tli{» f Talf-hret^ds and Indians of F'^ort J'atfiillo and vicinity. SiiK'f \v(> wrote to you, iniportinit (iiiiii;s liav<> (H-i-uiTcd. 'I'lic jiolicc attacked us Wo met tlicni. (lod lias <,'iv('n us a victory. Tliirty llalt'-iirccds and live C'recs stood till! tight ay;ainst one lumdicd and twenty men. After tiifjitini; during thirty-eight or forty nunutes, the enemy took flight. I'.less (!()d with us for flic success that he has had tin; chari'y to gi\e us. Rise up. Face the police. If possilde. if it is not done yet, take h'ort IJataiih^ l)estroy it. Save all the provisidiis and goods and come and jnin us. You are in sullicient nuudiers to send us a detachment forty or fifty strong. .Vll that you do, do it for the sake of (!od .\lmighty, under the keeping of desus- (.'lirist, till' Holy Virgin, St. Joseph and St. .lenn-iJaptiste. I!e con\ inced that Kailh works wonders. Pii:uiii: i'AiiKNTK.ru, (,'ii.\i!i,i-.s TiioiriKit, IW'K. HolM'llKH Pir.iuii-; Ili'.NKV, Ant. doiiiN, Louis " Dwid" I'iki., Fxori'd'-. I>0\AI,I> ivOS.s, Pli;i!I!K (lAUIKPV. f).\MASK Carhikki:. M. Li: PINK, P. H. (Jahnot, S'-ci-i'txri/. KXHIBIT N(.. !!). Miijiir Gi)i> f(tl Frc'h'rirk }[iJdli'ton, (ienerni, — I have I'eceived only to-day yours of the 1 3th instant. .My council are dispersed, I wish you would let them ([uietand free. I hear that presently you are ah.sent. Would I go to Initoclie, who is going to receive me? I will go to fidlil (jod's will. Louis "Davio ' Rikl, Exoccde. iJth xMav, ISS."). EXHIBIT No. 20. Duck ].,ake, Maicli, I'Tth, 188,"). TO MAJOR CliOZIEP. C0^•MA^■D1.^^ OFFI('i:U FORT CAHI.'ON. i{'/;'. — A calai lit V iiar t'-ile'i upon in country yesterday, you aro responsilde for it, before (!od and men. Your men canno; iai'>T ■li.i.tthoir intentions were peaceable since they were l)ringing along cE'inions. And th(>y lit d ii-i;\A hot- tirst. (lod has been ph'ased to ^ii'.int us the victory, and as our movement is to .save our live.s, our victory is good, .kki we oti'ir it to the Almighty, AEajor, we are Christian-, o, 'lar as in peace. We write in the ntiine of (lod and of liumanit .• to I'ome and take away your dead whom we respect. Come luid take them to- morrow before noon. 175 p.. Y%T^lT ''?■"'" ''P^ *"*' *'' »'«^«'"tiou adopted to-day l.y the ropresontativos of the Albkut AIonkman, (Jahhiel Dumom, Noiiiii'.uT Dr.i.ouMi;, PlKHUK Ti:, pAHKNTAKf, PlKHliK pAltr.MKAl-, Ami,. .JoiiiN, ]->AVII> ToUHnM), P. (iAKXOT, SiCf'/oin: _ lliat a pnsou.T \u- lil,,.,,,!,.,! and -ncn :i \vUrr to the i-oiniiiandiu- otlkTi- at Carlton, mMtn.^i,. l„iM in the nau.r of Go.l and of humanity to come and tak- ■a,.■■^y thr l.odies of tl... untnrtuiiate wlio fell yest-rday on his sicb, in the con.h.t ; that far f.na, hoin- n...h'stcd iu' wil beaecon.pani.vl l.y our condolrancos in the fulllhncnt of that som.uful duty ; that weydl wait tdl to-n.orrow noon. Movod l.y Mr. Mo.danan, .s.vondrd l,v Mr. John haptLste l.ouoiiei', and uiianiinously carried. Dated .Marcli l.'7th, ISSfi. Canada, I Proviiiri' of .Miiiiitolia. ) •^C. 70 IN APPEAL. •('oniT OF (jrr.KNs I'.kncii. THE (jrKKN r.. ItlKL. Ajiji'.'t/ I'riiiit Xuiili'W'sl '/'• rri/tiri's. — J'rrsrur, i,j /irisdinr. frinhii'tinn nj jxiptr^. pifKs -VT wAi.r.inuDcr,, v. .\.\ tavt.oh. kii.i am. .m. ;r.MMAitv Tiic ruun i)f Qurtii's Hciuli ill Miiiiinlui Iiii^ no piiwcr lo ■^cml ;i /ailn us (-; I'li rilorv's, i lif ori;iiiial paptrs -.lioiiKl lie pioiliiciMl. ir ilic prisoiii'r caiiiio. piuriin • liriii. I li:> Court will act on sworn or : , rlilicd .'opics. W imiino :iic| >rl>t('tlllMT, l.^.'M. 'Pliis w:is iili ii])))f;il liy M iifisoiior who liud l)t>oii coin ii-tcd ot tro.ison licforc ;i siipcu- iii;i;y iii;i'_'i-«iiit«' and ii jiisMoo of tlic |ic;ifo in t'lc North \\'<'st-'l"orritorii's. l\\ arraii^t!- lucnt. '■oiiiis''! for tlif ('lown and the jirismioi- a|ioi'aii«'o ita for tlio l>ns( •nor, 'riio Statute i;; \' c. r. _.i, s. ( ( IS as t oUows •I'soi i-on\ iitfd ot ny olViMi'M- lainislialilc hy (h'atli, may aiio'sil to tht' Coiii't of (,>iiocn's I'lciii-h in .Manitolia. whidi sliali h 0,0 jurisdiction to conliiin tlic coiniction, or to onicr a new tria' ; and tiic nioch' of sucii :'iiji('ah and al! |iarticuiar.s iciatiiiL; tlicrcto, shall In- dctcrinlncd from time to time I'V 01 hiiance of tlie Lieutenant (lo\eriior in ('otincih No I'locechue lias lieen ]iid\ided, and tiieie is t heiefoi'e iio means of [If .niiiiL;' either the paper-, or the atiendanc' of ♦iie jirisoner, who is cntiMed to aryue his case in person. In A''//. \. \\'l'"/''ii. "JS I'.C Q. r.. [(IS, the( 'oiirt of l^ror and A[)peal nfusod t,:) [irueet'd with an appeal tinl'l the paper,-, were jiroperly l>roUi,dit licfore it. r. KoniN.suN'. (,). (".. and I!. I'.. (»si.i;i<, ([. ('.. hotli of tho Ontario bar and .!. A. .M. ,\.iKKNs. (^). ('.. for the Crown. All tlie reipiisite papers are hefore tlie C mrt, and the prisoner's coui'sei must elect whether they will proceed or not. 'I"he ( 'rown nittkes 1 ohjectlon to the rei;ularity of tlie apjieal lU \VAl.i,lii;ioK. (.'. .1.. deli\('red the jiidnnicnt of the Court he statute ••■l\es alisence. the prisoner the riijht to appi'al, and is silent as to Ids pre selice or The North West 'i'erritories are outside the limits of .Manitoba. This Court has no jiower to send a Imltcua '-nr/iKs lieyoiul its ow 1 limits, and the Statute hat- made no provision in this respect. By tlie statute b"' Vie., v. '2'), sec. 77, pow er is gixen to a person con . icted, to aj)peal tw the r'ourt of Queens Bencli in Manitoba, which court shall have power toeonlirni the Of iiviction, or to order a new tiaal. This e.\t(!iit of the power of this court, is wholly statutory. This statu.e. in elfet, dirt^cts the prisoner to make tiiis appeal, not merely by appearing by coun.sel, but by placing the court in such a jiosition that tin- court can hear MlpfU- rraiiit<;- ■iiiliary il tti bf tii's. ci; liiif. (ted of uilolia, iiul the 111 tiiuc <'itli(?r irrsou. irofct'il A. .M. ll(! the CCS no 'IK'i' 111' 111..' illijiclll 111 the ivliollv •ly I'y 1 lu'rtr 177 till' iqijiOiil. This Koctimi also onat'ts that thf mode of the apjical, mid all ymrticulars rclaliii;,' tlirrt'to, shall Ik- dftcniiiiu-d from time to tiini' l)y ordinance of the Lieutenant (M)\ornor in ("ouiicil, /. '., of the North West Tenitories, No such regulations ha\c l>eeri made, and this eourt has no jKiwor to i'oni]iel the makini; of them. The apiiellaiit d»>sires to know ujion what [n oeeediii,L;s his ajipeal is to lie jieard. Wi; are of opinion that tlit fiiiyinal pajiers should he liefore us. If the prisoner has apjilied for them and they have heen r<.'fused to him. the Court will receive as sntlicient, sworn copies, or co]iies properly certilied. The pi'isoner does ntit show that he has miHJe any cH'ort to ^et these papers, or that thoy ha\ (' lioen refused to him. Counsel for tlw Crown say they are ready to ^o on now, and aruiic tiie apjieal upon the pafiers already transmitted liy the stipendiary magistrate Ik fore whom the jiiiMiiier was tried. Counsel for the prisoner decline to concui' in this mode. W'p are of opinion that the oriL^'inal papers. /, i\ the proceeilini/s and e\idence taken and had on the trial, shciild lie traiibiiiittcd to this court. It' it he shown that these have licen demanded and c.wmot he had, then the court w ill receive verilicd copies ot ihcm. ft is the duty of the person appeal ini,'. to supply *his((iurt with the necessary papers upon which the appeal is to he heard, oi- to do all in his power for that purpose. Tlie statute heforo cited has i,'i\cn the prisoner th<' ri.udit to appeal to this . .: whicii has no jMiwer to send its process outside the limits of the province. We are, i ;ci tore, of opinion that we cannot send a IihIkiik i-nr/iiai to l>i-ing the prisomn' before us ; mncrtlu less, wt; are liy law oMiijed to hear his appeal. Counsel for the ]iriMiner have !,'iven the sti(ieiidiary magistrate notice of their inten- tion to appisd, and lie has sent to this court certain papers, which upon in--pcctioii appear to he copies, !)Ui ai'c certified to as a triU'and correct record if tlic jiroccediii;_'s at the trial of Louis Kiel upon tlie cliari,'es sr-t forth tiiert'in : aiid afti'r e\ idiMice ami addi'css of counsel, he conciudes as follows; "(V'rlirieda true record." and he annexes thereto copies of the eshihits. .\:.'ain is ajipciided a ccitilicate •■Certilied true cojiies. If the prisoner desires time to procure the oi i.i,'inal paper*, the ( 'oiii t will adjourn for il suMicient length of tiiuf to emibk' him to ;,('i them. TILL QUP:EN rs. lUKL. 'I iinsnti. — I itri'il'iriidii iif X"ii/i-U'i st ('imrl. - I Hi'criiii'lii'ii. — Erldi m-e lu a/iorf/i'Dc/. — A jijx'iil II /"III jiifi . — / iisii II it I/. 1. In liif Nniili West 'IVrritorios a stiiuiidiary niapistrat.' ami a Jusiicf of the licacc. Willi liic iiilcrvciitioii of a .niry ofsiv. liav>- |iuw.t In I ry ;: prlsoiiur (■liarj;i'd witli treason. Tlic Doiiiiiiioii Act i:) Vie. >■. :i.". is not ultrn rins. 2. Tlic iiifnrmatiiiii in siuh case (if any infor'naiion iic necessary » may l»e lak.H lici'di-e the stipeiiiliarv ma^isl rate alurr.'. An oli.ject ion to the iiilniiiiaiiou vviail.l imt lu- waivcil liy jdeaiiinir to^llie eliarji'e after nl)jfeti.>u i.lken. .;. At the trial i.i such ca -e tlu' eviileiice niav li' taken liy a short liaml reporter. I. A liiiilinj^of ■•;:uilry" will not lie set aside upon .ipiieal if there be aii\ evi- ileiice to support the verdict. .".. To the oxicii! (if the powers couferrerl niion ii. the Dominion I'urliaineiit cxcrcisfs not (U'lc^'ated, Inn plenary iiowcrs of le},'islal ion. Insanity, as a defeiu'c in criminal cases, discussed. J. S. Ew.\KT. (}. C. and !•'. X. Li:mii:u.\ and Ciiaklks Lmtzpatuh k. of liie t^ietiec Bar, for the iirisoner. , . , ■ ,^ i i » ^r C. HoiMN.sov. Q. C, and 15, I!. Osli:k, Q. C. both of the Ontario Bar. and .1. A. M. SI' M MARY AntiiNs, il- C, for the Crown. U* IW 17S Wiiiiiili(% !ttli Si'i.triiilMT. iSSf). \\'.\i,i.iii;ii)i.i'., ('. .1. Tlic iirisoiirr was trifil lict'niT lliiuli Uiclmi'dsoii, l'ls(|uir(', ii stipfiidiai'v iiiauistrali' in ami t'ni' the Norlli-WCst To ritmits. in ('lUiada, ii|m):i a rliurijii (it liiL,'li trcax'ii. 'riic ti'ial took |ilac(' on (lie twiMitirtli day nt" .Inly, A. I >. Is.s,"), at llt'i;ina, in that Icnitmy, iiiidi'i' tlic l)(ini!in(in Ad l^i \ ir. c. J'l, known as " Tli*^ Noftli W.'st 'I'l-rriti.iics Art, ISSO." Section 1 ot' that Ait dcfhiics, that the ti-iiitorirs known as l»n]ii'il's I, and and tlic Xoi'th W't's- Ti'i-iitory d \ir]il inif tlic I'loxinccs of Manitolia and Kccwatin). shall contiiiiir to lie st vii'd and known as ••The Nort ii\\ est Tri'i'ltorics.' M iiutolia was criTt'. into a st'|iai'ati' ]iro\incc Ity (In- Donnnion A. a :\:\ y If. c, X ( 1 L'th .Maw 1 S7(), ) iiil it idcd ".Xn .\it to annnil and coMlinur llir .\(t :l, an. I ■() f.^talilish and |iro\i(h' tof the l'o\ cnnncii I of the J^ foNinrr o f M 1 :'.:'. \'ict. I nil oiia. \ crnnient of the i'ro\ince of .Manitolta. was declared \alid and ■H'ei-t iial, from the ( l.iv of its 1 ia\ mil: recencd tlie Ko\al le-sent. 'I'll" North West Territories .\ct, ISSO, hefore K'ferred to, nilder the head ".\dmiiil '-ition of ,1 iist ice," section 7 I, enijiowcrs the (Jo\eriior to a|>]ioint, iindi r tlio (I'reat Sc.ii, .iiie or more lit .ind |iro|M r person or persons, iiarrisicrs-al law or advocates of tivi- ye, irs standing', in any of the provinces, lo he and act as stipeniliaiy mauisli'iites within the North \\ e>t Territorii have maui-'lerial and other fnnct .\n py sec. /(i, ai'll stlpi'llillai-y inaulst nil e s hall ions appertaininL,' to aiiv just ice o! I he peace, oi' any two justice.^ ol tile peace; and one stipendiary majLCist rate i- .V '.hat sect loll, and t he tour sum- follow iiiij siili sections, Ljivcn jiovver to try certain erinies (herein mentioned, in a iii;ii-y v\ay, wiilioiit the ihterv eiil ion of u jury. l''or crimes tllll^ enumeriiied. (he prisoner can lie piinished only liy line or line ,>iid imprisonment, or \>y iieini; .-.enteiiced to a term ill tile penitentiary. Siili-scclion .'i li' section 7 wonls : — ■' .\iiy person arraii^ned for treason or felony may clialleni;e peremjitorily, and ^vitllout ciiiise. not mor(! than six pei'sons." And liy siih-.seetion II, " The Crown mtiy pereiiiptorilv ch.dleiiye not more than four jurors." If any douht wi-rc entertained Nvhetlier this .\ct was intended to extend to the crime of ti'ea-oi), this section vvoidd explain it ; as hv ii .in alteration is maile in the iiuiidier o^ peremptory chiUenges allow t-d to the Crown, reducing.' them to four. \\y section 77 of thai Act, it is enacted, that: "Anv pei'son convicted of any ofVence }iunishalile hy death, may ajipeal to the ('ouit of (.^>ueeii's IJeiich of ^Manitolia, which shall }ia\»' juriMliction to contirm the conviction or to order a new trial, and the mode of sueli appeal, and all particulars relatiii:,' thereto, shall he deteriniiis*^! from time to tiiii<; hy ordin.aiut' of the l.ieuteiTiint-( loveriior in Caum il. This priMiner was arraii^iied, and pleaded not LTuilty, and was tried liefore the said llui^li Ivichardson, es(|uire, a stiiw^iidiiiry magistrate, and Henry Le.le justice of the peace, with the interv-fMitiom of a jury of six jurymen. uiic, esijuire, The t-ase was ti'ied upon tht^ pilea <*" not LriiilTy to rhe ehai'ire. The prisoner was doieiiiied liy alile counsel, and all <»vi(«i«'iiir»' i-iilled vs tiieh lie desired. N now made as to o com|il lint IS unfairness, hiist-^, or want, of opportiin' of having' all the ev iileiice heard which In desired to have iieard. Tin- jury retui I a v.'rdict of ijiiiltv, and re- comuwiulfd till' jirisoni'r to mercy. I'pon this state of 'cumstamjes. the case crme hefore the Court of (Queen's ijMt'ii for Manitoha, hy vs : i|>peal. undt-r section 77 of the Xi>rtli-West Territoi'ies Act. J^o-reinhefon 'eiitionei I w iil he oh-'i-vcd that th« power of this court upon appeal i.s limited n he disposiiion i»t tlie case in two mays, 170 viz. : ('itlicr, in the words of Mit; statuto, "to coiilinn the coiivictiuii, or to ord.-r a innv ti'i;il." W'f ciui dispoM' of it only in ont; ot' flirsc tun wnvs. rpon tiic iiri,'iini('nt licfon- tins .-omt no iiltciii|it sviis, or roulil he, niiid.' (i> show tliut till! prisonci- wiis innocciii ot' the ciiMir f!iiu'u'''ii ; in t'iicf, tlir t\ iilcnrc us to ^^uijt is ail one way. Tlic witnrsst-s fallni ii|iiin (lir (i<'t'i'nir \\ ci't- so c-jijlcd upon the plea ot' insanity 'riic wiioli- (nidcnci' was laid lict'oro lis, a;id upon (AaniiniiiLC Mint, cn idcm-r I tliiiiU f(ainscl vt'iy pro|)i'rly dcciini'd to armic tlm iiucstion ot' llir trujlt ,,1 iniioici;cc of the pi'isoni'i'. 'J'lic ar^iinicnt iifforc us was coininrd to tin- constitutionality of ilir coiin intiin Noi'lli-W'i'sL 'JVii'itory, and to the ipicstion of ilic insanity of tlic iirisoncr. As to tlio t|U('stioii of constitutionidiiy, or jurisdi-'tion, in my opinion tin- court, hct'oic wiiicli the pfisoiicr was tried docs sustain its jiirisdici ion, under ;iiid liy tlic luipcria! Act ;'.l >v :\2 \'ic. c. lOo, s. .'), iicinv' The llupcit's I/ind Act, iSiiS, liy which pou.r is i^dvcn to tiio ParliainiMit wf < 'aiiada tn M,ik.., ordain and establish laws, iiistitu! ions and ordinaiwcs, and to constitute such convis and ollicers as may lie nocessary for ihn peacfi, oi'dcf, and ;,'ood ,1,'ovei'nmcnt of ller .MaJ(!sty's sultjects therein, Mieuiiii!,' Ilupcft's hand, heiie^- tlm eouiitfy cuiIiimcmI within (hat Terrilory williin \khich tiiis crime was committed, 'i'jiis statute alone conrers upon the Dominion I'arliament ilio power liot.li to make hiws and est.il.iisli coiirt.s. Secondly, The jlomiiiion Act :'.:! .v :?:'. Vic., c. ."i, inl itided •■ .\n Act; tor t he ti'inporary i;-o\irnmeni uf ilupert's Land and llic Nm-i h \Vc>,t T'eri itiu'ies. when united widi ('miiil;!," passed in pursuance of s"ction I l'> ol tin- British North .Vmerica .\ct,. |Sfi7. Ity which Wolh Itupert's Limd and the ,\orth-\\'est Territory wci'e d>'i-iai"d to he compieii.Mided Under the one designation of "'{'lie \ortliA\'e^t Territories," AiMplo ]io\vei i.s there -i^en to uiak'e, ordain, anti estalili-h hi\v>, institutions and ordintinccs tor llie jHMce, order ;incl L;iiod ljov ernniejii of ller Mn jc-,1 v's subject thereiii ; and section ti of that Act conlirui the ollicers and funerionaries in tiieii' fillices, and in all the powers and dtit'ies as before (hen e\erci.--ed. This Act, if u/fni. ri i-'-.f of the i>ominion i'ar- iMineiit, at that time, w is vaiidatei liV An Act !•( lni|> ■sjieciiiiu the estal>lishaient ot ])i'o\ i •2 A- .{:') Vic, •111 nice. I Act ;;i A- la \' .'■>, intifulec o, IS ill e.Kjiiress wor((s made \aiierial Act lias, by e\;press words, made the J~)oniiiiioii Act '' Viilid and pffectual ittv all purpo.ses whatever from its date," and it thus liecame in eU'eut an Im- perial Act, and has all the (>irect and force wliicli tlio Iiniicrial Pai liancnt could :;i\e it. The f)ominion r'arliament t lus had jiower to make the enaclm ■nt ailed "Tl 10 and convicted in ao- Nortli AVi'st Territories Act of ISSO," and the prisoiaa' was tried coi'dance witli tlie pros isions of this latter Act. * )f tin' re^ailarity of tlio.so proceedings no complaint is made excejit upon one point, which is that flu.) inforiii;iti iu or chareiuliary inagist r.ite and a justice of the peace, and it is contended tliiit t.his objec- tion is fatal to the form of the information, i'.y section 7(5 of fliv X. \V. T. Act, the stipendiary iiiagistrati! is lieclared to have tiie niaijisterial and other funi.'tioiis of a justice, or niiy two justices »4 the peace. An information could not only have been laiil before him, as it in fiict was, but could have iieeu laid before, and taken by, a single justice of the peace. Hut if what is meant by thi^ objection is, tiiat the cliarge, for that is the Miad used in that sul) section of the statute under which the prisoner was tried, should show on its fa,ce that this cliarg.' was tried before the stipendiary magistrate and ii justice, then it is answered by the fact that he was so tri«d before the sti[iendiary ma- gistrate and Henry l.,e.Jeuiie, a justice of the peace. IHO The tiftli soctioii <»f the stafiitc tints liiiv iiiji,' liccii cniiiplicil with iis to tlic t'onii of tlic dmriic, tlic law it>, tliiit interior roiirts imist sliow tlii'ir jiii isdiilioii on tlii" t'iicc of tlifir jirot'i'cdin^'s ; Imt the lumtrurv in the law in tlio case of sii|M'rioi courts, A foiiif liminL; inrisiliclion to try a man for lii:;li treason and felonies |innisli;ilile with deatii, eannol lir called an inferior court ; and this court lias all the incidents apiM itaininL,' to a sii|iiM'ioi' couit. and is the only court in the North West Territories. 'I'he court constituted umler the North West Territories Act of ls><(l, licin^n >U|'i'rioi court, need not show Jurisdiction on the face of its proceed in-^s. The authorities cited to uuiintain the position were of inferior jurisdiction and are not applicalile. < )n the Till may, |S,s(l, the hominion ( lovernment, liy tin- North West 'territories Act, constituted the Court of tiic (Queen's liench of .Manitolia a Court of Ai>;'cal in res- pect to otlences piinishaMe with death. It is the prisonei', however, who a|(pi'iils to us, not the Ci'owu, and he can hardly lie lieiird to oiijecl to the jurisdiction to which he appeals. It is further uryed that t he st ipendiai'y magistrate did imt take, or caiisf' to In' taken, in A\ I'it iuLT, fidl notes of the e\ iilcnce and other |iroi cedinus upon the trial. It is ti'ue, the evidence produced to us appeal's to hax'e liecii taken liy a >hort hand writer; whether the stipen do >o, it is in nrdei- I ha' it iiiav he fiiwardcd to the minister of .lusti Suli sei tion live, under which the trial took place, says nothiiii^ aliout the e\idence, luit simply that the stipendiary mai^istrate and a justice (if the jieace, with the in'ers cnt ion of a juiy of six. may Iry any cliai;,'ej against any pei'Min or persons, i'c.y any crime. It IS suli-seetion se\'en which directs the si ipeiii|iar\' ina^isirate to la! If caii.M' to lie taken, in writ in:,', full notes of the evidence section vi'^m eiiat ts, t hat when a pei': iiiil oilier procee(hni,cs thereat ; ami nii ir. on IS Con\ le^co ot !1, capital ollelice. ukI is entencei d to death, the stipendiary magistrate sli.ill forward to the miiiisler of .luslice full iiott uf the evidence, with his report u]ioii tiie case. Suppose the notes of the evidence were taken liy a .short hand reporter, anil ."t'ler ■wards extended liy him, does not the sMpeiidiaiy ma;4istrate, in the wiuds of the statute, "I'ause to lie taken in writing,' full notes of the evidence."' I am of opinion that, _/(\\. r ami d.'t'eine i.v COllll.-.l'l. Seclion 77 l>eiliiit- him m a|.|. 'iil ti. the ( '.nut ..(' (^lieeli'.-. Ileli.ti ill M iliilol.a. when till' evideijie is |iro.|m'ed, ami he is a.^aiii heard l.y counsel, and three jmlLres reconsider hi-, case. A'^'ain, th.' e\ idiMn-e laUen liy tlie ,; i j.ei.diary mau'istrate, or that caused (o luf tiilscii l.y him, mii-et'..r.' i he sent.'m'.' iscarr.d int.. ellect, lie t'.nwanled t.> the minister of.liistice; and sidi-^e.-l ion eiitht rei|iiii'es tile sti|iendiary maLfi-^traie to |.ii.-t|.iine the e\eciilioii. tVom lime to time, until sm-h r.|i'irt is r.'cii\.'d, and ihe |.|ea-,iiie ot" (lie (loxeilioi' lilt icon is comminiiiateil t.i ;lie iiiiMII "li lilt < I. .\ . riii.r. 'I'lills, (..'I'lire selitiai.'e JH < irrjed oii(, the jiri^oner is lieard Iwi.e in court. lhroii:,;h cuiinsel an.l his cas.> nnisi have lei 1 considered ill ( 'oiiiicil, and tln' |ileasiiie of the (!i)\ernor thereon i ommiini.'ated to til.' I.ii'.' ciiaiit ( lo\ eriior. It seem.', ii' me iIm' l.iw is not o|)i'n to the ehai'u'e n{ unduly or hastily i ..nti.liii!,' the |io.M r in the trilainals liet'ore whi.h the piis. mer h., In'cn heird. Tla- sent, m-e, when llie |iris.i|ier a|i].eal>, cannot lie .arrii'.l into .tiei't until his ca>e h.l> l.een tlii.'e lines heard, in ihe manner ali'ive -taled. • 'oiinsel ihciir.-st the |iriMiner's .'ase n)i.in the i;r.iund ol' iiisaiii'y, and it is ujioii tlii^ litter |ifiiit .iiilv li.ai the |iris..ii.'i' .ailed witnesses. 'I'hi'iiiiy liy their limliiii,' have nci.'ati\e.l this ;:roiiiid. and the prisoner ciui only ask. liit'ofi' II-, t'lr a mw irial. wf have no other power of whi.h hecana\ail hiiiis.'lf. The iMile at law III civil .iim-s is. ihal th.- cvideii.'.' aifainsf the \er.li.i mu>t ijreatly pr«- pondeiate liefore a verdict w ill I'c se! aside ; and in criminal cases in < >nt irio, whilst tin) law (now re|iealed ) allowcl applii'iit ions for new trials, the laile was m.ire strinyent a \enli.-l in a crimiiial cas.' woiil.l not 'i.' s.'i a>i.le if iliere w,.s evi.li'ii.i- t.i „'.i t" th.' Jury, and till' iu.l:;e w.iid.l not express aiiv opinion upnii it if tli.'rc wms .•\i.|.'m-' to l,'" io the jury, if their vei'.iicl I'oiild not lie declared w roni;. I ha\ .• carcl'ully r.'ad the e\ idence, and it appeals to me that the jury .■oald not reasona-lily have come to any otii.r conclu- sion than the vcrdi.'t of ;,'iiilty : tlmre is not ..nly e\ idem-.- to support the V'-rdi.'i. l.iit it \ a .1 ly preponilerates. it is said (he pri'>oner laliorcd under the insane delusioi> that he v\as ,i prophet, and ih.it he hid a mission to fiiliil. W'h.n did this mania first sei/.' him. or when did it maiiif.'si itself.' Sli.ii;' li. f.ire li.' .ame I .i Saskatcliew in h.- hail l.cen t.'achini.' .school in .M(ini:iiia li was ',• ' ills mania that impi lleil him to commence the work whi.h ended in til. .haru;.' at ; •>•. 1.. . II .• was inv i>ed l.y a deputation, w h.i w.-nt f.ir him to .Mi.iitaiia. 'I'lie .iri:.;iiial idea wj.- n.it Ins di.i mm iiri;;inat.' with him. It is aiu'imd. h'lW.'Ver. that his d.'iiicih.ir ch..,..«.l I Mar.'li. jii-t licl'.ire the oiitlireak. IJefore then lie lia.l l.eeii lioliliiii.^ m.'i tin^s. I'ldr. -sini,' audi, ii.'cs, ami a.-tiiiu' .'s a .sane person. His coirespomleiice vviili ( ;. n.ral (n.iw Sir Kr.ilerick) .Middleloii '.ct.ikeiis no si;,'iis ..f either wi'akiie.ss of intellect or of dehision.s, takini,' the d.^liniiions .,f this disease, as uiven l.y the .xpert.s. And how .lues his coi.duct c.>iiiporl ilierewiih.' Tin' maniac ima;,'incs his delusions real, they are li\ed and deierminate. ili.' liar.' .(uiliadi.ti.in .auses irritaliilily. The lirst witness (M lied liy th.' pris r, ili.' \i'\ . Ivitlier Ale\i- An. In", in his eros.s- examination savs ivs follows ; I. Will V(.u l>|pase stat.' what the prisoner asked of the Inderal ( iovi fiiiin nt ? — A, I had two interviews with the prisoner on that siiKj.'ci. (j>. The prisiaier I'laime.l a ceriain in.lcmnity from the F.^.l.'ral < iuv crnm.'iit. J, »idn't he. A. W h. 11 the prisoner ma.l. his claim, I waslhciv with an.ilhcr uenthaiiai,. and x^> ^.^ % IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) /. {/ V ^ fe & ^ /a I C\ ■- i^ IIIII2 5 I.U I" "^ i^ I.I 1.25 1^ !■■ 12.2 1.8 t 1^ ! i-4 IIIIII.6 V] <^ /a /a ^^ Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST fnAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY. 14580 (716) 872-4503 ^%'' •O^ V \\ ^ eross-c^xamination f)f a witness called hy the [irisoner. To tJenei'al .Middleton, af1er juisonei's arrest, he speaks of his desire to nei^-otiate foi' a money consideration. In my opinion, this shows he was williu.L;' and (|uite capable of jiartini;- with this supposed di'lusion, if he uot the .^ori.OIHI. A di'lusion must he lixed, acted upon, ami beliexed in as rc-.ii, overcome and domi- nate in the nnnd of the insane ))er>on. An insainty which can be ])ut on or oil' at the ■will of the insane person, according;' to the medical testimony, is not insanity at all in the sense of m.ania. Yir. Hoy testified to his h;;', in;^- lieen contined in the I'.eauport asylum at Quebec, fi-om A\ hich he was dischar.nefl in .lanuaiy, 1S7S. Jlis I'vidence was .so unsatisfactory, tlie answer not readily i;i\en. and his account of ])iisi)ner's insanity was gi\'en with so mricli hesitation, that I thiid-: lh(> jury were justilied in not ]>lacing any great reliance upon it. Dr. Clarke, of tlif^ T(U'onto asyiinn, as an ex})er(. w is not suthciently positixe to enable any one to form a detinite opininu upon the ([uestion of the sanity of the prisoner. Dr. AV'allace, of the Jlamilton asylum ; Dr. .Jukes, the meilical otlicei', who attended the prisoner from Ids arrival at I'egina ; Genei'al Middleton, and ('a]itain Young — these all failed to tind insanity in his conduct or con\"ersatioM. Neither coidd the Ke\'. ^Ir. Pitlilado, who had a good o]»j)nj't unity of conversing with him. In my opinion, the evideice again.si his insanity very greatly preponderates. Besides, it is not e\ery degree of insanity oi' mania that \v'\\\ justify his being acijuittcd on that gi'ound. The rule in that respect is most satisfactorily laid down in the J/ciVr/'/Z/Zflv/ case 10 CI. iV: Fin. LlUO. Notwithstanding the party accused did the act coni])laim'd of with a ■vieM', under the influence f)f insane delusion, of redressing some supposed grie\ances or injury, oi' of producing some jiulilic benefit, he is nevertheless punishable according to the nature of the crime conuuitted, if he knew at the time of committing such crime that he was acting contrary to law. I think the evidence upon the (juestion of insanity shows that the prisoner did know that lie w;is actiiiii' illetiallv, and that he was I'esixmsible foi- his acts. In my opinion, a new trial should be refuseil, and the conviction confirmed. (lemuri-er to tiie sunicieiicy in law oi tiie cMarge or indictenient, luul botli been overruled, the appellant pleaded not guilty. The trial was then, upon his application, adjourned for some days to procure the attendance of witnesses on his behalf. On the 28th of July 18.3 tlu; trial wii.s ])rn('C(>(|('f hiyli sfandin'' at tlio bar I K I L' iiii;' tViini t he ar^junicnts addressed to this eonrl liv t \\i( tl til lese -.'entleiiien (.11 the pn ..cii! a|.]K'al. fhaxe no h(>silati(.n in speak-in-i of ihrma.- l'<'tent to render to til. ■ a|ijiell,Mit all 111." a.-^ist. nice in On rlie 1st of ain;nst, the ease liavinu' l.een left to le power of eoansel to afVoi y eoni him. lurv tl lev I'etiirn.'d a xcnlirt of :,niil(y, and tlier.upon sentenee of deatli was j.n "oniM'.'d. I'li.ni that he l.rinu's his ajipca It was not ui',^-ed oefore this eoun. as it was hint should ha\(^ l.een sent for trial to the 1 British Columhia, instead of his 1 and a just ice of the jieac.' in the N. on the trial at Rc/iiM, that the apj) Vo\ ince of ( )nt.i no. oi' to the 1 ii'ili; 1 i-W 'rosinee ot .roin^hi to trial li.'for.' a, sii|)eii(Ilarv iii;iuistrat, T Acts i:\ ( now in fori is point nor having- I.ee ortii-W e.-,t I erritori. d. it Ml. (»ii n ari.nied. it is uiineces.^arv to c.n.-id.'r whi'tlaT the Inijierii .V -2 ( I\ r. (id ami \' a passing' allusion was made to th.'in l.v couurMl. 'J'he ijrst of t i.ct. repeah'd l.y the Statute Law ilevisiou A.'t. 1.S7J second was repealed l.y the Statute I„aw Jve\i>ion events, the imperial ( fovernment lias nexcr, under the auriioritvof thes. tlie North-West Territories justices of tl are nut leni w;is (."i.") ,v .■'.(') \'ic. r. ti.")), and ]iari of the '.:.). At all c 1. ace. nor v ii.'l 4al.l islie ha. 1. •ourt s. Willie under o, wliol'y dhti'r.'i!! pro\i.,ion has ln'cii made toi' ilcaliUL;- I crime .n those Territories, so tiiat they must l.e treat.'d as ol.sol.t.' if not repealed. It v.a.-, contended l>v the ai.pellMiit's counsel tliat tia- Imiierial statutes relatiim' to trea.soii, i tie 2.") Ivl (), which detii le w. ML. c. what is trea W [|. !i; ( II ( i|ualiiication of jurors, their numl.rr. am 1 ill mcludin in foi'ce in the Xorth-W'est T.M-rit Xorth-NVest T.-rritories, the peo])le of which are not ropi son, n,nd pro\i(|,' the mode in whi.li it is to l.e trie( ones. Ai id It \\as ar'i'ued, fluit ii ■thod of chnosiii'^ them, ar. th. I leu'islaliiu for I'sented in the I )omiiiion 1' ar liament, thiit Parliament exercise trued, and cannot lie exercised to ( ts i.v Mauna Charti Jritisli d, tnly a deleyMted jiower, wlii.-l iepri\'e till' people tliiTc of I I must l.e st rictlv cons- lu'ins :-.ecnr( I, or m an\' wa>" alti'r the judice. .> si'cured l.v o -f thi~ arnmineut aijainst anv chai li;" i.eimr 1 Id chartei's and statutes, a lireat d d to them as statutes to thi'ir pre- iia.ie in ri:;'hls and privileijres eal too much ma\' l.e maile Tliat t]it\se rights and priviley'cs, wrested by the peo)ile fi.im tyr iniiical So\-ereii:'iis niaiiv centuries tv'o, were and are \alual.le, tl at th of e nresi ■lit ilav <^n(l(M\-ounn! to d( icn th.' ■an ue.-^tion. Were th.' Sii\erei'. (.1 anv oppression, it would speeili .1 rhesf. for the purposes \y l.e fi.und that ili ■ lo\.' of lilicrts' is as sti 1)11'. hearts of I'ritish suhjects to-dav as it was in tiie hearts ..l' their forefatln ,' in the nd thev won Id do their utmost t o ui> hohl and ^feiid ri:i-lit.- -,nd iruile'i-es i>iircliase( of their ancestors. I5ut it is a very ditl'erent thinu' when the le^'islatuii 1 l)\- the Idood if re- el. mi.ose.i o preseiitativps of the* people, chosen l.y tl em express their will, deem it exjicdient to make a chain;'(> in the law, even tlioimii that chanLie ma\ 1..' the surrender of some of tl lese old i'iL;hts and priviie;.(es. Tl lilt the I )ominioii Parlia mi'iit r<']ir."S("iits the i.copie of ti North-West Ti'rritori.'S cannot, J think, he successfully dis]iuteii. It ii:ay I.e. that the inlial.itants of these Ter- ritories ;i re not represented in parliament l.y memhers sitt im;' there .choNen directly hy them, l.ut these Tt-rritories form i.art (.f the hoininion oi ('aiuidn. the pioiilc in th.'iii are lunsej, nemhoour. |uSl 111 tin .a me wav as a 11 citizens of (,'anada. not, as it was put l.y ci the people of this Dominion are part and parcel of the great IJritish Kmpirc. The [)eoi)le of these Territories are represented hy tlie Dominion Parliament, just as the inhahitants ■)f all the colonies are re pre seiited l.y the House of (Jommons of |] an d. r jc'dslatioii fill these Territori(;s hy tli(! Dominion Parli;imeiit. must iiiiieed pn their being direc tly represented there. Before they can be so. the n mi.er of represeiitati\es they are to have, the (|ualilicatioii of electors, and otlier matters must be pi'o\ ided for l.y the Dominion Parliament itself or by fjocal Legislatures created by that Parliament. The (juestioii then i.s, what powers of legislation w ith icferemc to the North- West Territories havi' been conferred u}ioii the Dominion Parliament by Imperial authoi'ity. ]S4 III tho oxort'isc of tliiit ;uillinri( y, wliiitcNCf if may be, it is not oxt'i'cisini;' a fl('l(>f,'at<'(I authority. To t'ound an arifumciit as to Pafliamont oxorcisiii,i!; a (Jclcifatod autliority, upon tho .iniiuaL'c u scd 1)V Auk I'll an writers, or up on iuflii'ial d (■CISIO MS in the ITnitcfl States, appeal's to uie to lie wholly t'all:ieious. la tiie Stat(^s of the Auierieau I'liion the theory is, that the soxcrtMyii power is Ncstefl in the people, and tiiey, l)y the (,'oustitution of the ►State, estalilishiiu a icLi'i ■.lat are ilelei'iite to that liodv eerti of til e sovereiirn ]M)\ver w incli is \( hieh nil i)owers. a hunted jiortioi eertani counuou law ri^iit- the jeifislatixe hodv. Keiue tli' 'sted in the people. The people, howe\(i', still retain he au'hoi'ity to deal with whieh they have not delegated to iiiL;ua'.:e used l»v IJrousou, ■).. in 7'iii//nr vs. /'orf''i\ I JI it p. 1 ii. \ wilrr our f'-nu of u"'\(rnnient, the h^yislature is not supreme, It is only one of the ori^'aiis of tliat alisolute sovereii,'iity whicli resides in the wliole liody of the jieople. Like other (!e]iartiiient-; f^f the ^-overiiment it can only exercise such power.- as nave 'II d('lei:ateil to it. Just lee Storv in \r;a- t is ill the li'^iil of this theory tliat the lain;uai;e of Mr. 'ni'dii \ s. Lihiii'l. '1 Peters, til?", must he r(>ad and hv which it must l»e construed. The case of the Prilish Parliaiiii'iit is (piiTe diflerent. '•in MJiich," as i>lackst(nu' says (/>/*/r/,'.v/'i(/''. ( 'heist ian'^ l*]d., \ oX. I., ]). 147. "the le;,dslali\ c power and (of foui'se) the siiiH'enie ind alisolute authority of tl le State, is \ es ted li V our coiisti- t«ti( 111. Ami aijain, .it n. I'll), he savs, " It hath sovereii;ii and uncontrollahle authoritv in tl le makiim, conierriii eiilaruiiii,', restrainii liT. ronatiiiij, repea lin e.Kpoundini;' ot laws, concoi'nm'j; matters ot all possilil(> denominations * * * revi.sini; and this Ijeino- tl le 1 ilace here that al>soIut;> de: not I iiower w liicli must in all i;overiiiiients reside somewliere, is eiitriisteij tl le ci')nstuut ion < if tl lese kiii''(loms. Po the extent of the powers conferred upon it, the 1) OMiiniiui Pari iaiiient exercises not (h'le^ated lait plenary jxiweis of leuaslation, thouith it caiinot do anything' heyond tli 1 I'lrcumscr; limits wliici Selhorne in 'Hn' IJ rh I' \Vli(!n aetinj;- witliin them, as was .said hv Lord iii'iii \ lUtrnli. L. Pi. .") A pp. Ca., at p. !J()4, speakiin;' of the [iidian ouiiiil, it is not in any sense ;in auciit or delegate of the Imperial Parliament, hut has. ( to ha\e, pleiiiiry powers of IcLrislation, a.s lar.Lce, aiul of tlie .same nature as those of that Parliaiiuait itself. That the J)oiiiinion ParliaiiuMit has ])lenavy ])Owers of legislation in respect of it!l m.itters entrusttnl to it was held hy the Supreme Court in Vnliii \s. L'ii/i// Suj>. C. li. .")0."). So also, th.e judicial emmiiittee of the Prixy Council have held, in //oJi/i' AS. 'J'/ii (Jiirr)/, L. l\. i) Ajip. 'i. 117. that the loi-al legislatures when le^^'islatiii;;' upon matters within section ill' (.f liie ll.itish Xnr'ih .Vinerica Act, possess autlau'ity as plenary and as sample, within tlh' limits preso-ihed l>v that section, as the Iiiipcii.d Parliament in tlu' plenitude of its jiowcr pos'-es^ird iiiid could bestow. The power of til • I >niiiiiiiiui i'arii:!iiieiil to Icifislate for the XortliAN'est Territories seems to me to he (h^rixi'd in this wi^e. .ind to extend thus far. I'.y section I 4aiiy i( ll.-r \vii hill l!u|it'rt's L am iini\ Klos that the siiiTciidrr shall bo null and \ oid iiiilrss within a iiionfli afti r its a. •cpt unci' II cr ^Jajcsty shall, liv onh-r in ('oniiril, uiidrr the 1" o\isioiis of section 1 lc admiMcd into and licconic part of the I )oiiiinion of ( 'miada ; uid theren|)oii it shiill lie lawful for the I'.'irliaiiient of Canada, from the date aforesaid, to make, ordain, and estaMish w itliin th and am 1 tcrritorv .'-o .admitted as aforesaid institutions, and ordinances, and to constitute smh courts and oliic.'rs as mav lie neees- sai'V for the iieace. ord»'i\ and '■(10(1 j'o\crniiient ot lei- .Ml tl jesiN ' •;ul jecti and others lerein. Til L^fif), a second addres'i was jiresented. eiiiliod\ ,111'' (■( 'I'tain resolutions and terms of af,n'eeiiient come to lietweeii raiiada and tli(> Hudson's Hay ( 'ompany, and prayiiu that Her ]SJaje.sty's would lie plea.si'd ro unite Lnpert's Land on tlie tt-rms and ex{)ressed in the fore^oiiiiH' vesolutions, and also to unite the NortliANi stern Ten the J) ominiou n f C; the tirst .address. nada, as prayed for, liy and on the terms mid conditions condn ions it(;r\- widi contaniei! m Tl le same Near tin' temj )orarv ujoN-ernmeii! o |)( f J! iminion I'ariiameiit passed an Act. A- \ for the Ulieri Land and the NortliAVestern Territtirv. wieu uiiit'.'d wi th C imada, \\liieli was to continui in force un til tl le end or the iie\t session o i V u- lanient. Tl le t(d 'iwini;' Year. and continued the former iSTii, Act. aiioi and V her Act was iiasseii .), \^lncli hich toiuied 01 if the XortliAVest Territory UlielKH'd lis tl Pr ovmc e of Manit< ill force the 32 i^' the ;^ session o: f V irliainen On the L':5rd of .1 'J'h. ic. c. t til une. ast section of this act re enacted. e\t-ended, and continued itil the 1st diiv of danuarv. 1^71, and until the fia .) ui en next ensuiny. l^TtJ. Jler Maji-stv liv Oi 1 of 111 ouneii atter rei'i 1 iiii;- the addressees pre.spnt(>d hy tlu^ Parliament of Canada, ordered and de.l.iicd ■• thaf Irom and after the 1 nth da\ of dulv, IN'U, the XorthAVestern Territorv shall lie admitted into. un (1 lieeomo part of, the JJoininion of (.'aiiada. uiion the tiua IIS and conditions set forth m the first hereinbefore recited address, and that the Parliament of C.inela shall, fi'mi tl: da,y aforesaid, ha\e full power and authority to lei^islate for th'' futun •If lie aih d j-ovornment of the said teiiit'irv, Ly virtue of that Order in < 'ouncil and of the "> I iV '■'< that on the I'lrli of .Julv, l.'^TD. the Parliament of Canada ; \ If. c, l)ecame < li»: 1. it >eenis to me. iitilled to icLrislate aiu dv o iiialce, ordain and ( tutions. and ordinances. as mil ■•lit 1 ■>lalilish wiidiin the XortliAVest Territorie:> all such laws, insti- uid to esualilisli such courts, civil ami crinii- 1 '■■overnmeni tliia<'i:i. Th" lan,i;uai;e (•nil and criminal le iK.'cessary tor ]ieace, order, aiu J'00( used IS even wkuu' tlian is use( 1 in the !ll>t s( ction of ilie ISriiidi N- .\ mcrica Act. .-jiich detines the !eo-islati\c authoritvof the Parliament of Can ida, exlendim^ hy sub .seetioii 27 to the crniiinal aw w Idle there is not as there the restrictions. It constitution ot courts ot criminal jurisdiction constitute coui'ts without aiiv limitation. Hit on the contrary exj xiiress autlioritv to That bv that Order in Council and Act the autlioritv thereby L'i\ en extends over diat part of the XortliAVest Territory where the e\cnts occurred eu lyaiust the appellant arose, t t of which the char^'e lere can oe no (hiulit. !!v the terms ot t lie aLtreement lie tween an inafhi am 1 th udson s l>ay (. (tmpaiiy the latrer were to retain certain Ian d in a schedule aniiex(Hl to the Order in Council the exact localities are mentiond 1. li the .Saskatchewan District the names Edmonton, Fort Pitt, Carlton House, and other pli ices aniwar. PI It is true that in 1871, another Act wa.s' piissed by tin; Imperial Parliai u'^nt. t lie 34 & 35 Vic. c. 28, spokc^n of by Mr. Fitzpatrick as "The Doubtsllemovine- .\ct, but cannot come to tl le c(Uiciusiou w hicl 1 he see ks to draw from that fact, and from its con- 186 firiiiini;' two Ads (if tlic (Jiiiuuliau I'lifliiuncnt, that tlic toriiifi' Act, ^il iV- o- Vio. c. 10"), (lid not L(iv(' tlie Dominion Fiiriiaiiifnt full power to Icifislato for the NortliAV^'st Terri- tory. The former Aet |)i'o\ ided for the admissioa of Jiupert's Land and the Nortii- Western Territoi-y into tli(^ hoiriinion, hut was silent as to the division of the Teri'itory so adnutted, into Provinces, or as to their representation in purliament. That it was doubts on these matters whieli the Act was intended to renio\ c is sjiow n hy the preandile. It is in these words, " Whereas douhts liaxc Keen entt'rtained ris[iectin,ii' the jiowers of th(^ Parliament of Canada to estalilisii proxirices in Tenitories admitted, or which mny Iiereafter lie adnutted into the hominionof (,'ana■") \'ic. c says, iiis included m any p rnanner. Then follows a conlii'mation ot tin.' L'anadian Acts -i- it ;>■) \ ic. c. .">, and ...^ Vic. c. ■">. That the .Vet should contain such a conlirmation is easily accounted for. The Imjieiiid Act ."^1 it ."^2 Vic. c. lOo, s. .'>, presided that it shoukl l)e competent for Ifer Majesty, iiv Order in Council, ''to declare that Rupert's Land shall, from a date to he therein mentioned, he admitted," itc, and "thereupon it shall lie lawful for the Par- liament of Canada, from the date afore.said," to make laws, Ac. The ( )rder in (,'oiiiicil was made on the I'.'ird of .(une. l'>7(Xand tin; date therein mentioned was the 1 .■)th of .July, 1^70. Now, a reference to the two Canadian Acts shows, that the oi'nd and ;);')i(l Vic. c. ."5, was assented to on the •2'2n(\ of June, \^(}\), and the :53rd ^'ic. c. '■'>, on tiie i:.'th of .May, 1S7U. So, in fact, they were both passed before the time arrived at which the Parlianu^nt of Canada had the riyht to legislate respeotini;' the North-We.st. Piut they liad been acted upon, and tlie Province of .Manitolia actually organized, therefore tiiey were confirmed and declared valid from tlie date at which they received the asr.ent of the (Jovernor Ceiieral. Acting' under the authority ^iveii in the most ample manner l>y the.se Acts of the Fniperial Parliament, and, as it seems to me, in the exercise not of a deieti'ated authoritv, but of plenary powers of legislation, the 1 )ominion Parliauanit enacted the North- West Tei'i'itories Act, ISiSQ ( ^;? \'i,.., e. L'.")) which i)rovides, ainony- otli(>r thin;j;s, for the trial of offences committed in these Territ(jries in tlie manner tliere pointed out. The a[)pointment of stipendiary magistrates, who must be )iarristers-at-law or advo- cates of five years' standint;, is provided for by the 74th section. By the 7()th section, each stipendiary magistrate shall have ]iower to hear and determine a.iiy ciiarge agauist any persi-on for any criminal ofl'ence alleged to have been committed within certain specified territorial limits. These words are quite wide enough to include the crime of trea.son. The various sub-sections of section 7() jirovide for the mode of trial in certain classes of oti'eiices. Those specified in the first four sub-.sections are to lie tried by the stipendiary magistrate in a sunnnary way without the intervention of a jury. Then the oth subs(>ction says, '' In all other criminal cases the stijiendiary magistrate and a Justice of the peace, with the intervention of a jury of six, may try any charge against any person or persons for any crime.'' Again the words are quite wide enough to cover the crime of trea.son. Counsel for the apjiellant contended that from the word treason being used in the lOtli sub-section, and no where else in the Act, it must be inferred that the Act did not intend to (leal with the crime (jf treason, except in the matttn' of challenging jurors, which is (l(>alt with in that sub-section. The sugg(estion made by Mr. Robinson is, liow- ever, the more reasonable on{^, namely, that treason is there named advisedly, to put l)eyond doubt, there being only ^^C) jurors summoned, that a jirisoner charged with that particular crime should not be entitled to exercise the old eonimon law right, which a prisoner charged with treason had, of challenging, peremptorily and without cause, thirty-five jurors. IS? Tlio (UK .^tidii iiiiist next l]i' (■(lll-^illl■^l•(I, wild licr ilir pi'ii.'crdinu'w iiniiin.-,t the apiu'linut. lm\c liccii (•(iu(luctc(l accdniiii,!,' to tin- i(M|iiirciiiciils nt' this Act. Tlic rrioitl lict'iiif till' ( 'iiurt sliows tliat tlti- trial took pLirc licr'orf a :-( iiM'iKli.'iN- iiia^^Msti-atc ami a just ice of the peace, with a jury ot' six .selcctcil and -worn aidr tlie appellant had exercised his i'it;ht of challcnpiiii,' scvi'ral jurors. Two olijcclioiis to the I'cu'ularit y of the ]iroci'('diii^'s arc. howi'scr, raised. 'I'lic liiNi of tlicsc is, tlial the information \ipM|| which tlic appcUanl was char;tcd was exhil.ited licfiire the stipendiary mauisti'ate alone, and not hefoi't" the stipendiary magistrate and a justice of the peace. An inspection of the document shows the fact to In- so. I'lUt is it jiecessary that the information should he cxhiliitcd hefm-e Imth? 'I'lie ))owers and jurisdiction of -tipcndiai'y magistrates are set out in section 7*> of the; North West TerriKa'ies .\ct. ISSlt. Tilt' first part of the section says, each stip.Midiary maLristi'at^' ••^llail ha\e the mauis- torial and otJiei- functions appertaining; to any justice of the piMce, or any two just ice.■^ of the peace, under any laws or ordinam-es which may from time to time he in force in the NovtliAV'cst Territories.'' That is a distinct pi'oposition. lly the schedule annexed tc) the Act one of the laws in force there is the ;')_' iV ;').") \'ic.. c. :')!). I'ndcr the 1st section of tliat Act it is clear thai a char^'e oi' complaiin that anv pers(.n has commit ti'd. or is suspected to have commit fell treason, \\r--y he exhilmed hefore one justice of the pi'i^'c, and a wari'ivnt for his a|ipiehension issued liy such justice. Section 7(5 then ^-ocs on furlhor, that each stipendiary mauis'rate '-shall also h ive ])0\ver to iiear and determine anv duirge aijainst anv person for any crimini! oflem'c, " Arc. In all other ci'iniiiial cases than tliose specified in the lirst tour ssdi-sections he and a jiistic(! of \]\(' peace, with the intervention of ;; jury of si.\, may ti'y the c!iar:;i'. it is only wiien tlie chai'ge comes to lie trieil that the jiresencc of a justice of the peace ai'uiu' with him is necessary. To hold that tht' \\ords " try any charge '" include tla' e.xinliiiin;;- of the informati(Hi, or tliat it must he s:o, hcfore hoth a stipendiary magistrate and a justiie of the iieaee, seems to me to insohe the holding' ah.o, that for the piwpMse of exhioitinu' ilu' infovination there is also necessary the intei \enlioii (^f a jury of six. Now the jury cannot be called into existence luitil the charge has been made, the atcitscd arraiuncd upon it, and he has pleaded to it. The case of h'tr/. \s. Jiusy//, ]."> (,|. 1!. '2?>7, was cited in support of this oljectiou, but, as I read tliat ease, it is a direct authority against it. An inlormation was exhibited under the Act for the Cleneral I'egulation of tlie Customs, befou^ a single justice, and Avas disndssed by the justices before wlioiii tlie diarge was broui;ht for trial, on the gi'ound that it sliould ha\e been exliibited before two justices, in coiiformiiy wiih se( i ion S2 of the Act for tlie Prevention of Smuggling. That sec*^ioii jirovided that all jiciiaities and forfeitures incunvd or impo.sed by any Act relating to the cistoms should and might be "sued f;.r, piosecuted. and recovered by action of debt, liill, jilaint, or infoiinat ion in any of Her Majesty's Courts of Record," A'c. "or hy informati(jn before any two or more of Her Majesty's .Justices of the Peace," A'c. A rule calling on the justices to show cause why a mandamus should not issue comniandiug them to [iroceed to adjudicate upon the information, was obtained. Upon the return of the I'ule, counsel for the justices contended, tliat tlie provision that tlie penalty may be " sued for," by information, must n-fer to the coniinencenient of the jn'oceeding. in like niannci' as in the jirovisicai that it may be " .sued for " by action. Put the Court made th<; rule for a mandamus alisolute, Lord Denniau, C. J., who delivered tlH> judgment of the court, .saying, "The Ni'nd section of the Act docs not necessarily mean that the information must be laid before two justices, but only that it must b(! hcartl before two justices.'" The ne.vt oljectiou is. that at the trial full notes of the eviilence and jiroceeiiing.-; thereat, in writing, were not taken, as re([uired by the statute, section Tti, suh-section 7. Wliat was actually done, as it is admitted on both sides, was, that the evidence and a record of the proceedings were taken down at the time l)y stenographers appointed by the magistrate, and tliey afterwards extended their notes. The objection cannot be, that the magistrate did not himself take notes of the ISH ■eviclt'iicc imd proceed iti^s, t'ni' tin 'iitiitc says lie sliiill " take, or cuuse to lie taken," full notes, ikv. It must Ke tliiit the ii' s were taken l>y steno^ji-apliie si<,'ns or syniUols. No (loulit, eiiiutnients re^'u. inj.' the proeerlui'e in courts s<'eni usually to lie iin|ier- ative, and not merely directory. Muxinll ini S/iihihs, loG ; Tiiylor vs. T jiurpose of recordiuf,' the ideas which characters and words e.\]>ress, or of connnunicat int; tluni to (ithei's liy \isilile siifns." In the same wdi'k, "to write." is detlned thus, " 'i'o jiro (luce, tnini or makcliv traciuL:'. leyilile characters e.\])ressive of ideas," Js not steno<;raphic wi'itinu' ihe production of '• lej^dMe cliaraiters e.\jiressi\(' of ideas"? The woi'd is foi'nied fr," and means simply " close wi'itinj;." If the olijeition is a v(iod one, it must )j,'o the len^yth of insistin;^ that tlie notes must lie taken down in oidinary I'jii-disli chaivicters, in words at full len,L,'1h. If any contractioiis ()!■ alilireviations were Ui'ide. the olijection would have (piito as mil force as it has to the liii thod adopted in this ca.-;e. /i'" Shnihro, 1 Man. 1.. |{. .')•_'.'), was an entirely dillerent case. Tt was one under the Jvxtradition Act. a id the e\idence was taken in short hand, as is usual on a trial. The Court held, that ,lie I'epoi'ter's notes extended, which were produced liefore it. on the :iruument on the return of a writ of /idh'H.i rnrpus ol.taiiu'd hy the prisoner, could not Ik? looked at, .ind that tliei'e wiis realiy no e\ idence. r>ut the Court so held, licicause the provisions of the •"il.'nd iV -V-Wd \'ic. c. .")0. s. 'M), wei'c applicahle to the mode in which the esidence should lie taken in extradition iirot'eedinys. Tliiit section r(-(|uires the depo- sitions to lie put in wiitinu'. read over to the witness, signed Iiy him, and also siyned hy the justice taking' the same. The depositions in the case in t|Uestiou had not lieen read oxer to the witnesses, no)' si^iueil \iv liiem ; nor were thev signed liv the Ju(l;,'(^ who took tli( 111, .so that clearly the reijuiremcnts of the Act had not lieeii conijilied with. Ill addition to the olijections already dealt with, it was arLTtied that the .ippelhnit is entitled to a m w trial, on the ground that the e\ idence adduced (woved his insanity, and that the jury should ha\c so found, and therefore renderi-d a xerdict of not uuilty. 'J'lie section of the statute which i:i\cs an appeal, says, in general terms, that any pei'S(~.ii coiivicteii may appeal, without sayini; upon what lirounds : so there can lie no ei'tini^ new trials and a)i|i(>als, and writs of error in la'imiiial cases, in Cpp(M' (,'anada ('(Jon Stat. I'. C. c. li'.]) was in force thei'i\ may l>e ref(M'red to as n'uides. l^y the tirst .section of that Act, any jieison con\icted of any treason, felony, or misdemeanour, niiidit apply f(M' a new trial ujion aiiv' jioint of law. or '[uestion of fact, in as ample a nianiKM- as in a civil action. The decisions unde;- the .Vet are uniform and consistent, and a few of them jnay he referred to. The earliest case tijion the ]>oint. and perhaps the leading case, is AV7. ;-,y. C/infil)g, 11 I . C. C. P. 3l', in which the prisoiif r harl lieeii convicted of a capital oH'ence. In giving judgment, Wil.son. .).. said : " Jn passing the Act, giving the right to theaccu.sed to move for, and the Court to grant, a new trial. I do not see that it was intended to give courts the power to say that a verdict is wrong, hecause the jury arrived at conclu- sions which there was evidences to warrant; although from the same state of facts, other and different conclusions might fairly have been drawn, and a contrary verdict honestly given.'' Kichards, C. J., betVire whom the case had been tried, .said : "If Iliad been on the jury, I do not think I should have arrived at the same conclusions, but as the law ■ casts ujjon them the responsiliility of deciding how far they will give credit to the wit- 189 we arc jiistilicd in ivvcrsiiiM; t licir drcisioiv liosscs liroiiiilit licfoic lion, I do not tliink unless we ciiii l)c firttiin that it is \\\\. |i,r,'' In I'ftf. rs. (.'n-iuirnnil, -IW V . ('. (^). |',. ■_':).•), ., ^..is(> m wliidi the piisonci' imd lifcii comietcd of nnirdcr. I lii;;arty, .1.. said : "| coiisidcr tliat 1 disclmri,'.' my diit y as a jnd;,'*' Ipct'orc wliohi it is soii>;lit to ol.tain a new trial on tlic ;.'i'oMnd of tlic allCnrd weakness of ilie evidence, or of its weight in eilliiT scale, in declaring my opinion tliat tlicre was evi- dence in-oper to lie sul.mitled to the jury ; that a uiMidicr of matirial fio ts and circum- stances were alieduvd pioperly liefore t liem links as it were in a cliain of circumstantial eviflenee- w idcli it was their especial duty and pro\in<'e to esandia' carefullv, to test their \veij,'iit iind ada])tal)ility each to the other ^- '■'• * * To adopt anv other \ iewdf the law, would lie simjily to transfer the conclusion of i'\{^r\ prisoner's i;uill or innocence from the Jury to the judges.'" luij. rs. Jl(iiiiiltu)t, IC) I'. C, C. P. :'))(), was also a case in which the pri-oner had Keen convicted of muider. Jvicliards, (.'. J., wlio delivered the judiiUient of the court, said : '" We ai'e not justilied in settiiiM' aside the verdict, unless we can sav the jurv were wron.y in the conelusion they hiive arrived at. It is not sutlicicnt that wc would not liiivo pronounced the same M'rdict ; hefore we interfei'c we must l)r sulisji.il (hev ha\c arri\ed at an erroneous conclusion." So, in ■ /A-y. '"•'<. S'lltlioiy, I ti l'. ( '. ( '. I*. ,"iS',(. it was said : " The verdict is not pervei'se, nor auainsi law and e\ ideiice ; and iillhouLih it mav lie somewhat against tla^ judice's char^'e, that is no I'eason for interferiiii;. if there he evidence to sustain the lindine, in lause the jui-y are to jud,e-e of the sutliciency aiul w('i,i;lit of the evidence." In lifij. rf<.S/(>ri,i. 17 U. C. C. P. ^O't, the law on the suhject was tlius .-tutdl : " We do not profess to have scanned the evidence with the view of sayinu; wheihcr liie jury nni,dit or mi^dit not, fairly considering; it, have rendered a \-erdict of ac(juittal. Wf jia'.e already declared on se\ cral occasions that this is not oiu' iirovince luider the sinlule. It is suilicient for us to say that there was evidence which warranted their lindin:;. " 'l"he learned counsel for tln^ appellant have arifued with ,L;reiit force and n' ililv that tlie oNcrw helming,' weight of the evidence is to estalilish his insanity. I'nder ihc autho- rities cited, all that my duty recpiires me to do is to see if there is any evich'iice to support the lindin,:;- of the jury, which implies the a])pellant's sanity. I lia\c. liow(\cr, read eai'cfully the e\ id(;nce, not merely that of the experts, and what iiears specially upon this poiut, hut the .tteneral e\idenop. It seemed to me proper to (Im m.. heeause it is oidy after acciuiriui; a knowledge of the iiiijiellant's conduct and actions Mirou;,hout, that the value of the expeit evidoice can he properly estimated. After a critical examination of tin; evidence, I lind it impossihle to come to anv other conclusion than that tit which the Juiy arri\('d. 1'he appellant is, hcyond all doida, a man of inordinate \anity, CAcitalde, irritahh; and impatient of contradiction. lie .seems to have at times acted in an extniordinary manner; to have said many si ra,nj,'e things, and to ]ia\(' entertained, or at least jirofessed to entertain, ahsurd \ lews on reli- gious and political suhjects. lUit it all stojis fai' short of I'stahlishing such iinsounfliiess of mind as would render him irresponsible, not accountal>le for his actioits. His course of coiuUict indeed shows, in many ways, that the whole of his ajipai'cntly e.viraordinarv conduct, his claims to divine inspii'ation, and the prophetic character, was only jiart of a cunningly devised scheme to gain, and hold, inlluence and power o\er the siinpl(> minded people around him, and to secure personal immunity in the e\(>nt of his ever heing called to account tor Ids actions. Jle seems to have had in \iew, while professing to champion the interests of the Metis, the securing of pecuniary adsantage for himself. This is evident from, among other circumstances, the conversiition detailed l>y tht» Rev. ^Ir. Andre. That gentleman, after lie had spoken of the apjiellant claiming that he should receive from the Government 8100,000, but w'ould he willing to take at once s;').'),000 cash, was asked. "Is it not true that the prisoner tfild you that he himself was the half- breed (piestion." His reply is. "Jle did not say so in express terms, liut he couNcyed that idea. He .said, if I am satisfied, the Half-breeds will be. I must explain this. Tliis objection was made to liini, that even if tlie Government granted him 8;5r),000, the half- ilO brood f|iiostioii would roiii;iiii tlio same, mid lit- said in aiiswor to tliat, it' I am siitisliod, tiir Half l.roods will i.o." ! I c alio says that tiio [)i'iosts iikU and put tho i(Ui'stiou : "Is it possilili' to allow liiol to coiitiiiuo ill liis rolii,'ious duties, and tlioy unaniinously docidcd that on tiiis (|Uo.s- tioii ho was not rospoiisililc that ho was oDuiiilotoly a tnul un this ()uostioii -that ho oould not sulloi' any ooni I'adiotion. ( )n tlio (|uostions of roli'^idu and politios wo oonsi- (loiod that ho was coiniilotoly a I'onl." Thorf^ is iiothini;' in all that, which would just ify tho ooiiolusion that tho man so spdhon ot' was not, iCNpoiisiMc in the oyc ni tho hiw for his aotirins. Many jirop'o arc impationi of oontradiction, or of authority l»oinji( oxorcisod o\cr ( liom, yol, thoy oaiinot (in that aci^ount soouro ]irotoction from t ho consivpirnoos of thoir acts as hoiuif of unscaind ndnd. 'yUv liov. .Mr. l<'cairmond, who was one of (ho oloi'yy w ho mil for tlio pur[)oso spokon of li\- tho Iicv. Mr. .\ndr(', shows tliat the (nnoliisiou thoy oamo to. was omno to, lio(;aaiso thi'y ili(ju.i;lit it tho ninic clriritalih! one. Ilathor lliiui say ho was a foi'co, liotli of whom are ([uito positive in i;i\iiig o|)inioua of the appellant's sanity. It was contended that the very fact that ho, a. man who had soon the world, could o\ cr hope to succofid in a reliollion, and contend successfully with tho force of the L)o- niinion, iiacked as that would lie, in case of need, by all tho power of Enj,dand, wiis in itself coiu-lusi\e proof of insanity. lUit tho evidence of se\'oral witnesses, specially of Captain Youni;-, shows that he never had any idea of entorins; sei'iously into such a con- t(>st. The appellant told that witne.ss that lie wa.s not so foolish as to imagine tliat he could wage war against (,'aiiada and Dritain. His plan, as he detailed it, was to try and capture ai; J)uck Lake, Alajor Crozier and his force of police, and then, holding tlioni as hostages, compel the governnient to accede to his demands. Wliat those were he had already told the Uvv. .Mr. Andri'— 8100.000, or in cash .>?r.."'),000, and if ho could not get even that, then as much as lie could. Ila\iiig failed to capture .Major Crozier, he hoped to draw into a snare (Joneral .Middleton and a small force, in order to hold them as lio.s- tages fcH' a like purpose. The tighting which actually took place was not tho moans by which he had ho[)od to secure his ends. The Rev. 31 r. Fitblado give.s evidence similar to that of Captain A'^oiing. Certainly tho o\ idoiicc! entirely fails to relieve the a])}iollant from responsibility for his conduct, if the rule laid down i>y the jud,;;ps in reply to a question put to them by tho liouso of Lords, iii Jf(ifjii;//i/lic lienolit, ho is neverthele.ss punish- able, acconling to tho nature f)f the criim^ committed, if ho know at the time of commit- ting such crime that ho was acting contrary to law ; by which expression we iiuian, the law of the land."' This has, 1 believe, ever since it was laid down, been regarded as the .sound and correct rule of law on this subject. In my judgment a new trial must be refused, and the conviction allirmed. 101 Kii.i.AM, .1. -I cDiiciii' fully ill tlir iiiiirlii-,iuiis i>( iiiv i.nit licr-jii(!y('s arni in (lie rciison.s sii|iiM)rtiii,>; tlit^ .siiinc, witli the »'.\c('|iti(iii, jn'i-lmps, nf lioMiiii; soiru'w liat ilitl'iiviit o|iiiii()ns t'rniii some of those cxpiTsscd liy tlic Cliicf .IiisUcc iis to (lie fd'.M't .if l||i< siih- scctioii of till' 7()tli section of the NortiiWest Tei-|-itoiies Act, iei|iiiiiii;,' full iKit,.-, (,f the •nideiiee to lie tiikeii upon the trial, ami as to the form of the char;,'!' in i|iie-;ti(ai. Were it not for tlHMiii[)ortaiiL:e of tlie eiise, ami that a mere formal eoneiiirence in the jikIl;- iiients of tiie other members of the (Joiirt iiiiLrhl apiteiir to a,ris" tn snm-' extent frnm sonnj flisineliiiution to consider fully and to di-cnss the im|iiirtanl <|n''>t idiis that hase Iieen raised, I should rather have felt inclined to say men ly (hat. I a;.'rcc >\iih ||||. opinions which those jnd'jincnls express. What I shall add has heen written after haviii<,' had ii irenernl idea n\' the \ icws of my hi'ol her- judi^es, luit principally liel'ore I had an opportiiinty of perusing' the full e\. pressioii of their views, and with a dcsiic to present some views npnn whicli they unicht t'X- not touch, rai her than xsitli the idea that their opinions reipiirnl to he diU'ci'iMit ly pressed. I \i{'i'(] not recajiit iilale the fai'ts of the case la- the proceed ill;.'^ taken, and I will refer to t.lie statutes less fully than if I were ills of Uiglits, and many statutes enacted liy the imperial Parliament, among which rights are claimed to bt> the right of a party accused of crime to a trial liy a jury of twelve of his peers, who must all agrtn^ in tlieir Aerdict before he can be convicted, and the right of a party accused of high treason to certain safeguards provided in connection with the procedure ujiou liis trial. It is also argued that high treason is a crime N«/ ///'X'/'/.v .• that it is ,an oll'euce against the sover- eign authority of the state; and that it must be presumed, notwithstanding the provisions of the liritish North America Acts and the otliei' Acts giving the J'arliament of (Canada authority hi the NorthAVest Territories, that the Imperial Parliament still reserved tho right to make laws respecting higli treason and the mode of trial for that otlenct! ; and also that the provisions of tiie Act -['■'> Vic. e. 2."), s. 76, are inconsistent with enactments of the Imperial Parliament, and thereforf^ inoperative. There can be no doubt that the Imperial Parliament has full power to legislate away any of the rights claimed within Great P>ritain and Ireland. Its position is not in any way analogous to that of tho Legislatures, either State or Federal, under the Constitution of the I'liited States, and the"^ American authorities cited by counsel for the prisoner can have no application. l!»-i 'riiiTt' is III) |Miwfr iiiuliT tiH' lifiti-^li < 'fiiistitutinii lu (|iii'-,t iun ilif nutliority <>( I'lU'liiiiiiciit. Il iniiv yet liiivi' to 1m' I'liiisidcrcd wlirtlicr it litis so rtrfct iiiill\ j.'ivi-ti up its |iovvi'rs of Icv'isliitioti ill rt'iiiinl to tin- intiriml aHiiirs of ( ';mii Itiipi'i'lal I'arliaiiit'iit, the ( '(aii'ts of Camida arc IkmiikI l»y tin' I'lnctiMriits of the fine or the other ; luit iIh'M- an- (jiicstions wliifli iifcd not MOW !)(> di'i'idi'd. It is liiii' that the I'ailiaiiit'iit of Ciuiudii is the cri'iiture of . statute, and liiiit its |io\vei'.s cannot lie greater tlnii the statutes expl'essly or iiii|iliedly liestow uiioii il, iait lliere hns lieen no atteiiijit hy the Iniperial Parliament to lake iiway or to eiicroai'h U|ioii the puw eis yis en to the I'arliaineiit, of Canada, and we lia\(' nolhini,' to do at present with speeiilations upon the etl'eet (if sueli an attempt. The I'ritish North America Act, lS(i7, lie-ins with the recital that the l'ro\ imi's of ( 'aiiada, Nova Scolia and New- Ih'iinswick '■ li;i\e expressed their desire to lie federally united into one hoiiiinifin under the Crown of the Cnited Kingdom of (Jreat I'.ritaiii and rreland. with II cmetitntion similar m principl to t li:it of the I 'iiited Kinirdoiii. '.\' seel loll !» th e\ecul 1\ e ltos crniiienl ;ni( I authority of and o\ er ('aiiada are declared to lie vested in the Oueeii. Ciider section 17 there is "one I'arliaiiient " for t'anada, consisting; of the (Jiieeii. an (pper llouisc styled iheSeiiiile and the lloiise of ('oiiimons. 1 5y section IS the pri\ ilcMcs, immmiit ies niid powers of I lie Senate ;ind I lousc> of ( 'omiiions iiro to lie such as are from t ime to t ime dclined hy the Parliament, Imt so as not to exceed those of the liritisli House of Comnions a( the passim:' of the Act. Il thus appears iliat the I'iirliaiiienl of ('anadii is not, wilhin ils l(\i;isliili\ e powei's, placed in an inferior position to thit of I'ritain. The So\ I'rciyn form as iiitc;j;ral |iart of ecu. iinadian as of the Ihitish Parliament, the lOxecutiv e authority is vested in tin So far as relates to licr intcriial alliiirs, Canada stands in a position of eipial (lii^nitv and importance with the rnited K iiii;doiii, and, except in so fur as (he action of llie So\ercii,'ii mny he indirectly eonirollcd hy the liiijieriid Parliament, ( ';inada stands the ( (^11 in this respect ratiier ii th sitidii of a sister kingdom tlinn in that of a depondeiiey. Il is |iiiiicip;iily liy the Ulst section that the leiiislalis e imthority of the Canadian Parliament i.s dctincii ; and uiiiler this section it can " mid, and Ihitish Noilh Americn Act, 1S7I. ;! I and ."iri \'ic. les liave lieeii a( ided to the hominion. .'S, the North \V<'st Territoi liter Acts the jurisdiction and powers of the Parliament of ('aiiada are enlarged, lioth as to the territory over which tliev iiiav lie exercised and the suhjects upon which laws may he enacted. Ther(( are no l*ro\inciul Lcuislitttiri's (except in Manitoha) to share in the leirislation, and there is no (lualilicalion of or exception from the power of le;,dslation u|ion all matters and suhjects relatini,' to tlio "peace, order and i,'ood ndv ('riiment " of Her .Majesty's sulijocis and others in these add"d teiiitories. <)\cr these territories and with th(^ addition fif these suhjects of legislation tile Parliament of (,'anada is in the same position as it was over tlu! Dominion when tirst formed, jind in respect of tjie suhjects of legislation committed to it liv the Ih'itish North America Act, lS(i7. The American theory of const iiutional ;,'o\"prniiient is, that the leijislaturos are com- posed of delegates from the [leople. aiul that certain rii,ditsand jiowers only are lommitted to them, and that the people have n^tained to themselves certain ri^dits necesstiry to the free enjoyment of life and liiierty which the lei,nslaturcs have heeii f,Mveu no ]iower to inter- fere Avith, and it is now attempted to apply the term '"dele'j;ated " to the h(!stowal liy the Imperial upon tlu^ JJoniiiiioa Parliament of the jiowers of legisL'tion conferred hy tlie ConfediM-ation and other Acts, and in this way to introduce the same theory into tlie consideration of our constitution. The principle of the P.ritish Constitution is, however, that th(! people of the State, the three estates of realm, composed of the Sovereign, the Lords and the Commons, are all assemhled in Parliament, and that thi; enactnieuts of VM\ I'lirlilllllillt HIT lliriM' i.t' till' wlldlc liiilioll, .111(1 IKil lit' rli'lcpitt'S tViilii llic |M(.|i|i'. Kliilii I his iiiTi'SMiiily t'olliiws till' I'oi .^I'lctr sii|)ri'iiiiicy of I'm liamciit, its power to lr;;isluti' iiwiiy tlic liylits ^fUJiiiiiitiT(l liy .Mii;,.ia Clmrtii, the l'*ill nf |{i;,'lits, or any riKU'timiits of I'lir- liitiiit'iit «)i' cliartcrN of tin- Sovcii'inii. As is saitl \>y Lnnl ( 'aiii|ilirll in l^ni/uit \ s, Murnlrni, •I Moori' I*. C. ('as. •_".)(» : '• As to wiuit lias lict-n saiil as to a law nut lifin;; Ipindini; it' it lir toiitraiy to rrasoii, tliat ran icrt'i\i' no (•oiiiit(Miaiiavs ; "A. 'onlirmcd .\ct of ihe local Le^islaten to liial tel'.s wit hill its colnlielel u liether in a si'tt led coni|i!crc(l colony, lias, as I lei elicit and tile limits of its jiirisijicl ion, the opcral ion and foi'e»i of so\crcio|i Ic'.'islat ion I hoii^li snhjeet to lie eoni rolled hy the Imperial I'aiiiainiMit." Ii the (,' Province I apprehend thai, w ilhin the limits I- ;lslal lire is t he mapped out Ky the aiithnrily which yave iis our |iri'M'iil c(jii,-I k iii ion, ihe lenislat lire is the sn|ireme power. ' This view of the )iositioii of the l'rci\ incial licyislatiires is 'ipheld .\pp. < 'as. 117. In Viiliii vs. 1)V (he I'riv v < 'oiincil III //."A /'■ vs. n. u Ill-Ill^ /,inii/l' "(.-', Slip ('. I!. I. Uii I'llIC savs L. I! I think that ihe llrilish North Americiv vVet vests ill the homiiiion I'arliameiil plenary power of lei^dslation, in no way limiled or eirciimscrilied. and as iarue and of the same nature and exteii the ariiamei,! o! (Jreat Ihitaiii. I whom the power to legislate was conferred, itself had. 'I'lie Parliament of (jfeat lii'itain clearly intended to divesi itself of all lei,'islati\ e p iwer over this sulijeet matter, and it is (Mpially clear that what it divested itself of, it onferred wholly and I'XC'lUslVely upon Ihe a I'liaiiKii I of t lie I )(. minion." .\iid this doct riiic •f a deleyation of powers cannot he more aptly met than in the Juduiiieiil of the I'liv v ( 'ouncil in Uniiiui vs. Jinrti/i, 1j. ll. Ii App. ( 'as. SS!), referred to hy my hrotlier Taylor The foUowin;; remarks of Lord Selhoine are so applicable that 1 must repeat them, lie says (j). '.)04): "The Indian Le,i.:islature has powei's expressly limited by the .\( t of the imperial I'lir- liiuiient, wliicli created it, and it can of ciaiise do iiothiiiij;' beyond the limits w liich ciiciiin- scribe those powers. But when acting,' within those limits it is not in any h'-nse an iif^ent or (U'lei,'iite of the liiijierial Parliament, but has iiiitl was intended to have pleiiarv jiowers of le;;isla,tion, us lar< and of the same natui'e iis those of Parliament itself. I take it that the plenary powers of legislation i-onferred upon the Parliament of Canada include the rii^lit to alter or repeal )>rioi' Acts of the liii[)eiial Parliament upon subjects upon which the Canadian I'arliament is yiven jiower to legislate, so far as the. internal govoriinicnt of Canada is concerned. The powers which the I m|M'rial Parlia- ment alone could fornierlv exercist^ upon these .subjects in our NorlliAN'esI, whether bv making laws entirelv ii ew, or I; y rej )eal or amendment ot exi iting Ii iws, our can now exerci.se. Nor do I think that the Imperial .Act, L'>'^ li: L".) \'i Pj rl lament is incon- sistent with that vie T'nder section Ii of that Act, uiv Col onia 1 h iw w hid 1 IS or ni< shall be is any ri'S[)ect repugnant to the provisions of any Act of Parliament extend to the Colony to which such law may relate, or repugnant to any order or regulation made under authority of such Act of Parliament, or having in the Colony the force and effect of such Act, shall be read subject to such Act, Order or Piegulatioii, and shall to the extent of such repugnancy, but not otherwise, be and reiiiaiu absolutely void and inoperative." This is not in any .sense an Act of Inter])retation of Imiterial Statutes, whicli is to be considered as part of ami to be read with Acts of the Imperial Parlia.- me nt. and if it is repugnant to the British North America Act, IStu. and if by th^ latter Act powers are given to the rarliameiit of Canada without the liniitatioj uposed i;j 1!)4 1)V the t'oniicr Act, (lie I'ritisli Ndi'IIi Ai ucru'ii A .'t, its l)oiiii,' the latoi- ono, imist prevail. liut oven witliniit (liis view, I ciundt tliink (li.it the r('|ni),Miiuirv ri't'crrcd to is sucli as ■would he iiivi>l\i'(l liv an aiuciidhiint or iciical of an Act of the Imjicvial I'jiflianient iiiion a siilijcct upon wliicli jilcnarv ipowcrs of lc;j;islation were sul>s('(|ucntly niscn to tl Pai'lianicnt of ('ana( here cou Id on IV Iv 1 consKierc' to 1 )ft i'e])ut;iian<'v \\itlun tlic nieaniui' of tli(> Act if il appeared liy llie Ini)ierial Act that it was to I'enniin in force jiotwitlistandini,' any suliseijuent action of the colonial l(>L,'ishiture, or if it were enacted after the jdenarv powers of h'Lrisiation wei'e granted, and were thus shown to he intended to ovei'ride any Act wliit-ii tlie colonial lei,dslature liad passed or niinht thereafter jtass. It will he olise-ved also that it is only an Act of Parliament *• extend in i^ to the Colony" to whicli refei'cnce is made in the sectiou cited ; and hy the iirst section of tiie A(-t, in consiruini,' the Act, "An Act of I'ailianient or any jirovision thereof," is only to bts said to " (>.\teiid to any colony when it is made a]i])licahle to the colony hy t]i(> express M-ords or necessary intendment of any Act of I'.irliaiaent." And hy section ;>, " No Co- lonial law shall he deena .1 to ha\t' heeii void or inoperative on the yimmd of repu,i,'uancy to the law of iMiu'land, unless the same shall !•-■ repugnant to the pi'ovisions of some such Act of Parliament, Order, or lietiulatiun as afores;ii(l." 'i'luis. it was e\ identiy not the intention to exclude the colonial Ic^nslat nres from making laws incumsistent with those, which mav have h(>on enacted l)y the Ihitish Parliament for Pritiiin or the United KinL,'(loni particularly, and which may he in force in tlie colony solely hy virtue of tlie principle thati the I'ritish suhjects settling- therein carried w ilh them the hiws of Pi'itain, or that hv eiUKpiest the laws of I'ritain came in forci\ l>y Viw lifth section of tliis same Act, " lC\erv colonial le;,dslature shall have and he deeun'd at all times to hav(> had full power within its jurisdiction to estal)lish courts of judicature, and to aholisa and re- constitute the same, and to alter tin- constitution tlieri>of, and to make prosisiitn foi' tiio administration of justice theri'in." It must surely, then, not ha\(^ heen intended that such a legislature should he limited in its estahlishment of these L-ourts, and in its regulation of the ])rocedure therein, to courts constituted as those of Knu;land, and a i>i'ocedure similar to that which ParliauKMit- has thought pro[)er to estahlish for J']nglish courts, or to a jury system which can he (raced hack to the eai'ly agi's of iMigiish history, or even to trial hy jury at all. Nor can 1 see any reason to suppos(> that it was not intended that the I'arliaincnt of Canada should not ha\ e p(;wer to legislate regarding the crime of treason in Canada, it certaiidv seems to he gi\('a when powei- is gi\en to make laws for the peace, oj'dei" and good governuHMit of Canada. ICvcn jurisdict ion to declare what shall he and \',hat shall not he acts of treason, when connnitt<'d within Canada, against the ])erson of the Sovereign herself, might safely he committed to tlie Parliament of Canada when the Sovereign is a part of Parliament, and has also power of disallowant^e of Acts, even aftei- they have heen as.senied to in her name hy the (Governor (ieneral. The ])i'opriety or impropriety of providing for the selection of a jury hy a sti[)endiary magistratt^ app.ointed hy the Crown to hold otlice iluriiig jileasure, of reducing to so small a nundu'i- the peremjitory challenges, and other ])r()\ isions relating to the constitution of the court and the mode of procedcnc to which o!)iection has Iiikmi made, is for Parliament and not for the Courts to decide. We can only decide whether Parliament has, as I think it clearly apjuMirs that it has, even without the Ruiierfs Land Act, full power to constitute courts and to determine their method of ])rocedure. With tiie provision in the llupert's Land Act, authorizing tli(! Parlianuuit of Canada " to constitute such courts and otliccrs a.s may he necessary for the peace, order and good government of ITer Majesty's sul)ject.s and others '' in the North- West Territories, it does not appear that there can he any express •' No Co- 'iniiiuancy soiiie sufli Iv not tlio willi tliose. lu' luiiterl I'tuc of tlie ot' I)i'itaiii, ' this samc! ) have had ish and re- ion for the ended that and in its land, and a for iMiii'lisli isli liistory. Parliament in Canada. )eac<% oj'der >e and what I'rsou of the a when the ;, even after j)roi)riety or ;e apj'.ointtnl nniiil)er the le court and and not for Ilk it clearly titute courts .ipert's ]jand u\ otliccrs as ;ty"s suhj(>cts e can be any iiiifh treason, [>!• tlie North- sul)-sections, oul)t. After t a jui-y, the ticlude a case of hi:,di treason) tlie stipt-ndiary iiia,i,'istrate and a justice of tlie peace, wi(h the inter\en- tioii of a jury of six, may try (un/ chai'^e against any piM'son or persons for mn/ crinii! " (which must inchnh- llie crime of treason). Subsection 10 provides that "any jierson ari'ai^ned for tmtsiDi or filonv mav chal- lenge ]iereni!>(orily and without cause not more than six jun/rs." it was remarked that this is tlie only mention of trcison in tiie Act, but it wiis the only occasion for its bein;^ specially mentioned. In view of (he peculiar ri,!,dit of challenge in a case of trea.-.on, under the hiws of l''.ni,dand, it was important to phu-e it bi'vond doubt, l.v sjiecial men- tion, that in a casc^ of tre.-.son as in any other cii ie the nmuliei' of perempiorv chaHcn^es was to lie limited to six. 'Die wonlim;- of the subsection mav not be strictly correct, as not, rccooni/.int,'' that treason is a felony, but tlf .subsection is not on that account of anv less importance as show inu- the intention toL;i\('to the court juriMiict ion onci- a i'liarL;'e of ticason. 1 cannot loji'ee with t he arirument of coiui'-cl for tlu' (Vown, that an objection to tlie intormatioii is not open on this appeal, on account of (he piisoner ha\im; jileaih'd to the change. lie demuii'ed to t ic clrir'.;-e, and liis (h'unirrer beinu' o\-ei'ruled he was olili!,fed (o plead. There is no indictn\eiit, and 1 do no! ihink that ;in (■bjcciioii to the charL;t' need Iju iiy a form;'.! denuirrer. In fact, it appears that the proceed ini^'s mav be of the most informal charac(er. I'nder section 77, "a person con\ic(e(l of an oll'eiu'e punishable by dcatli" has a rii;h( y section 7(i, ( lie stipendiary maLdsVrate is;;'i\cn the " nian'isiei'i:d and other functions of a justice of (he peace," ;ind pow<'r to "he;ir and determine any chai;L;e against anv jierson " in (he manner set out in the \ arioirs su'n s"i'(i(ins of (he se(( ion. I t,dn the a]i|ieal allowed, it is (Mpially important that they be taken. If it is only with a view to their transmission to the minister, as the Nth sub section also provides for the pos(]ionement of the execution of a .sentence; of death until the pleasure of tiie (io\ernor Ins been communicated to (he Lieu(enant Covernoi', it is an important part of the procdure at the tri.al tint the notes of evidence be ta,ken in order (hat the action of the I AccaKive may \n: based upon the I'eal facts proved; almost, if not cpiite, as imjiortan( as that the evidenci! should be laid pro- jH-rly before the jury itself. [ shotdd not h(>sitate to adjudge illeti;al a conviction of a capital ofl'ence sliowii to have lieen obtained upon a trial so conducted that these facts could not he jiroperly laid before the l<]xecutive by the notes of evidence, for wdiicli the .statute provide.s, taken down duriiii,' the progress of the trial. 19G It appears l>y tli<> certiticato of the maj^nstrate that thi; only full notes of the' evidence taken at the trial wei'e taken by " shoi't-haiul rejiorters '" appointed liy the ma- gistrate. Althouj;h it is not so stated, I think that we may assume that these notes- were taken in what is known as short hand, 'hiiiila pro-ntiinitntitr rif'' ''v.sv (icfd is a maxim iij)j)lical)le as well in eriminal as in oi\il ,. itters, ar.d if we eannot make siieh an assumption we must assume them to have been in the ordinary form of writing, or at least in sueh form of writing as would satisfy the statute. The statutory jn'ovision is, that "full notes" are to l)e taken '"in writing." The veiy definitions of the words " writiiig,'' and " to write," are sutlicient to show that the methods of recording language covered by the word "stenography," come within the term "writing." The very deriva- tion of the word " stcmograpliy " shows it to mean a mode or modes of writing. '• Steno- gi'apliy" is a generic term which endtraces every system of shorthand, whether ba.sed upon alphabetic, phonetic, oi' hieroglyphic princi})les. There are advantages and these achantages both in stenography and in ordinary wiiting for the pui'pose of rei)orting th(^ evidence given orally in a court of justice. The magistrate is not obliged to take the notes himself; he is authoi'ized by the .statute to cause it to be done by anotlier or others. It has not been the practice so fai" as I know, in any court in Canada to take down vrrbattni question and answer in ordinary Avriting, ami that could not be presumed to l)e required. If it is not, l)ut the notes are taken in narrative form, their accuracy depends largely on the ability of the reportei' hui'iiedly to ai)i)rehend the elfet-t of ((uestion aiul answer and throw them together so as properly to s(!t down tlie idea of the witness. Any system by which (juestion and answer are given rrrhafini is certainly more likely to be accurate than this method, notwithstanding the chances of error suggested by 31 r. J'^wart. The short hand system of the reporter may be .something which himself alone can under- stand, it may be a system which is known to many, and it may be that his notes can be read by many. I think that we are not entitled to a.ssunie, for the purjiose of holding the conviction illegal, that in the jtresent instance it was a system understood by the reportei- alone, even if that assum])tion sliould pi-operly lead to that conclusion. The use of short hand reiiorters in the courts had been in \ogue for a considerable time in more than one of the Provinces when the North-West Territories Act of 1880 was passed ; ami when Parliament provided only for the taking of the notes " in writing,'' without any fui ther limitation of such a general word, it may be Vi'ell understood to have had in view a class or method of Mritiug which was in such general use. I lia\e felt the more satisfied in coming to this conclusion, as it has not been suggested that ^he prisoner hajs been put under any disadvantag(\ by the system adopted for reporting the evidence and proceedings, or that the rejiort of the evidence or proceedings is in any respect inaccurate. The question of insanity is raised ui)on this appeal as a question of fact only. No objection has been made to the charge of the magistrate to the juiy. The princi|)les laid down by the courts of Upper Canada, under the Act which authorized the granting of new trials in ci'iminal cases, and which have been referred to l>y my brother Tayloi', appeal' to me to be those whieh should govern this court in hearing and determining ap))eals fiom convictions in the North- West Territories upon (juestions of fact, e.xoept that it is hardl)' accurate to say that the court will not undertake to determine on what side is the weight of evidence, but oidy if there is evidence to go to the jury. This hiirdly applies in a case like the i)resent. The presumption of law is that the prisoner is, and was, sane. The burden of proof of insanity is upon the defence. McXaylUen's case, 10 CI. I'o Fin. 204 ; N>';/i,ia v. Sfok>'H, :\ C. it K. LSo ; Riujina v. Lnnton, 4 Cox C. C. 119. Without evidence to go to the jury, the prisoner cannot be ac(iuitte(l upon the plea of insanity. If liun-e is in such a case to be uny appeal after a conviction, it must be on th(> ground that t]u> e\idence is so overwhelming in favor of tlie insanity of the prisoner that tlie court will feel that tliere has l)een a miscarriage of justice -that a poor, deluded, irresponsible being has been adjudged guilty of that of which he could not be guilty if he were deprived of the power to reason upon the act complained of, to deter- mine by reason if it was right or wrong. Certainly, a new trial should not be granted if the evidence were such that the jury nl mi dii th w A rol he ret of gro hill to lai! ar scl Ujin acci ton jur if it pris 1U7 •could reasoiii\l)ly convict or ucquit. ]Mr. Lt'iiiipux laid t,'rPiit stress upon tlio fact that tJiP jury accoiiipaniod their verdict with a recoiiuiKMulatiou to mercy, as showiui,' that tlioy thontfht the prisoner insane. I cannot see that any importance can I)e attached to this. I have read very eari'fully tin- report of the char^'e of the magistrate, and it appears to have been so clearly put that the jury could have no douht of tiieir duty in case they thought the prisoner insane when he committed tht? acts in (jucstion. They could iu)t have listened to that char,i,'e w itliout undcrstandinjj: fully IJiat to l)rin.i,' in a v(;rdii;t of f>;uilty was to declare emphatically their disbelief in the insanity of the j)risone;\ The recommendation may ix' accounted for in many ways not connected at all with the (juestion of tin- sanity of the prisoner. The stipendiai'v magistrate adopts, in his charge to tlie jury, the test laid dov.n in My the leading judges of England, at the time, to the House of Lords, it was not so done in any ]ia,rti- cular case which was hefoiv that trilamal for adjudication, and it could hardly lie considered as a decision absolutely l)indiiig upon any court. I should consider thi.s ccnirt fully justified in departing from it, if good ground were shown therefor, or, if, even witliout argunuuit of counsel against it, it ajjpeared to the court itself to l)e impro[)er as apidied to the facts of a particular case. In the present instance, counsel for the pri- soner do not attempt to impugn the proju'iety of the rule, and in my o))inion they could jiot successfully do so. It has nevei', so far as I can lind, been ov(>rruled, though it may to some extent liave been tpiestioncd. This rule is, that '' notwithstanding tlir- party did the act complained of with a view, under the iidluence of insane; delusion, of redressing or I'evenging some supposed grievance or injury, or of producing some ])ublic lienctit, lu; is neverthelt\ss punisluible according to the nature of the crime conunittcd, if he knew iit tlie time of connnitting such crime that he acted contrary to law.'' Mr. Justice Maule, on the samt; occasion, put.s it thus ; " To render a jieison irres- ponsible for crime on account of unsoundness of mind, the unsoundness should, according to the law as it lias long lieen undei-stood and held, be such as rendeix'd him incajialilo of knowing right from wrong.'' The ai'gument for the insanity of the prisoner is based to a certain ("xtent on the idea that he was in such a state of mind that he arms to have redi'essed. \n the latter cas< , if siiu-ere, he believes it to be I'ight to do so, that tia^ law of (Jod permits, nuiy, even calls upon him, to do so, and to adjudge a man insane on that yi'ound, would be to open the door to an acquittal in every case in v>liich a man witli an honest lielief in his wrongs, and that they were suHlciently grievre not bound to accept sucii o])inions. The jury had to listen to the gnauids b.r these opinions, and to form their own judgment upon them. In my opinion, the e\idenc(> was such that the jury would not have been justified in any v(>r(iict than that which they gave ; but even if it lie admitted that thev might reasonably have found in fa\ or of the insanity of the evidence prisoner, it cannot be said that they could not reasonably find him sane. I liesitate to add anything to the remarks of my brother Taylor upon the on the question of insanity. I have read o\er very carefully all the eviy luiii. I n-i' witli liim iilso ill sayiiij,' that tlio prisniit-f has hccn ahly and zealously (leffuidcd. and that iiotliin,t,^ that could assist liis case appears to hive, heeu left untouclied. If [ could see any reason to believe that the jury, wliether froin passion or j)i-ejudiee, or otherwise, had decided against the weight of the evick'nee upon the prisoner's insanity, T should desire to find that the Court could so interpret the statute as to he justitied in causing the case to be laid before another juiy for tlieir consideration, as the only feelings we can have towards a feUow creature wlio lias been deprived of the reason wliicli places us above tlie brutes, are sincere pity and a desire to have some attempt made to restore him to the full enjoy- ment of a sound mind. The ])risoner is evidently a man of more than ordinary intelligence, who could have been of great service to those of his race in this country : iind it' he were insane, the greatest service that could be renderi (! to tlie countiy would be, that he should, if pos- sible, be restored to that condition of mind whi him to use liis mental powers and his (nlucation to assist in promoting; th(> int(>rests of that important class in the community to which he beloni.':s. It is with the deepest regret that I recognize! that the acts chariicd were committed ^^ itliout any such justitication, and that this Court can- not in any way bo instilled in intci rering. In my judgment, the conviction must l)e confirmed. !!»;) APPKAI. TO THE PIUVY (OUN( IL. p. f. N. 4:5. C EJi'l'IFIED ci'Pjl of y any coroners in((U('Ht ai(iiinst your potitioncr. ."ii'd. An inforniiition was laid anainst your [X'titionor, liut cvcw if a inci'o int'ormatiou was snUu-iout, that in tlui case ot' ynur [ictitioner was taken Ixit'oro tiu; stipeudiary nia<.'istfate alone who had no jurisdietion at all. till. The e\ idence at the trial was not taken down liy the sti))Oudiary inatjistrate nd bv him eaused to he taken down in writinn', as direeted Kv tli •tute in that hehalf. nth. l^pou tlio appeal to the ("ourt ot' (Queen's lU'iuh, your petitioner was not per- mitted to l>e pn\sent noi" wcvv any ot' the ]iai)ers or tlie record pioperly liefore rhe Court.. (ith, The trial of your petitioner and the eireunistanees out of which ir, arose are deemed l>y the people of Canada ((> lie matters of no ordimny im)iortance, have divided the jiii]iulation into (wo ojiposiui,' ))arties, and it is essential not only upon these ijrounds, but also from the fact that a lai'j,'e number of trials arisin;,' out of the same eircumstaucos are beint,' had before the same functionai'ies that the (|uestion raised bv this petit should be adjudicated and settled. The ])etitioner must therefoi'c pray tion 1st. That ^'our .Majesty will Ite graciously pleased to order lli;it your petitioner may ha\e speciiil lca,\'e to app(>;d and lie at liberty to enter and prosecute his appeal from tins afor(l to make such fni'fher or other order as to ^ our ^Majesty in Council may appear just and iiroiier \n(l \(>ui' i>i't it i();i(>r s\ il Quel >ec, >eptemiier True coiA". . e\ei' iirav, iVi ,ti (Si_i(neci 1) V. X I. Ciis. F ri'Zl'\ iKirK. ] Itl Cms. i''ii'zi'ATKi( K. Ko. 2-i:?. (COPY) CAN ADA. COI.ONl'.r. SIANf.KY in ■IIIK DKl'l'TV-cjo'i I'UNoli. Downiu!;' Street. I'lth October, 1.^85. Sin, -Widi reference to my telec;ram of the '2'2n(\ instant. I have tlu^ honor to trans- mit to you the aceomjianyini;' cojiies of tlu^judniuent of the Lords of the judicial connnit- tee of tjie Pri\y ('(umcil, on the petition for leave to ajipeal of fvouis Riel. 1 lia\e, iVc. (Siuiied,) l^iOiiKUT 0. AV. 11ki(Hi;i!T, j'ltr till' Si'i-relitrjj of S lute. The l)e[)uty-' In\-ernor. .(udynii'ut of the Lords of tlu> Julace, nor was it deined liefore the oi'iL^inal trihunal, or ix't'ore the Court of A])peal in Manitol)a, that tlie acts attriliuted to the petitioner amounted to tho ■crinin of hi;,'!, treason. The defence u{)on the facts sou,!,dit to he established before the jury was, that tho petitioner was not responsilile for his acts by reason of n.ental intirmity. The jury before whom the petitioner was tried nej,'atived that defence, and no arj,'u- nient has been jiresented to their Lordships directed to show that that tindinj; was other- wise than correct. Of the objections raised on the face of the petition two points oidy .seem to be capable of plausible or, indeed, intelliifible ex))ression, and they hav(! been urijed l)efor(^ theii- Lordships w ith as much force as was possible, and as fully and com- pletely in their Ijordships opinion as it would have; been if leave to apjieal had been ifi'anted, and they have been dealt with by the judgments of tlie Court of Appe:il in Manitoba with a patience, liMirning and ability that leaves very little to bt! said upon thein. The lirst point is that the Act itself under which the petitioner was tried was ultra rlri's the Dondnion Parlianient to enact. That Parliament derived its authoi'itv for tho passing- of that statute from the Imperial Statute, '.\\ and :b") Vic. Chap. :.'S, which enactefl that tho Pai-liament of Canada may from time to time make provision fm' the udministration, peace, order, and good go\ernment of any territf)ry not for the time b(nng inchuled in any province. It is not denied that the plact; in i|Uestion was one in n'sjxjct of which the Parlia- ment of Canada was authorized to make such provision, but it appears to be suggested that any pi'ovision ditl'ei'ring from the pro\isions which in this country have been made for aflniinistration, peace, order and good governnnnit cannot, as matters of law, bo provisions for peace, order and goad govei'nment in the territories to which the Statute relates, ,'uid further that, if a Court of law should come to the conclusion that a particular enactment, v\as not calculated as matter of fact and policy to secure peace, order, and good goveriunent, that they would be entitled to regard any Statute dirtictcd to tho.se objects, but which a Court should think likely to fail of that etJect, as i(lti\i rlrci and beyond the conipc'tency of the Dominion Parliament to (>nact. Their Lordships are of opinion that there is not the least coloui- for such a contention. The woi'ds of the Statute are ape to authorize the utmost discretion of iMiactuKMit ft)r the attainnu'ut of tlie oiijects pointed to. They are words under which the M'idest departure from Criminal procedure as it is known and practised in ihis country have been authorized in ITer Majesty's Indian Km]>iie. Forms of procedure unknown to tin' Laiglish common laws liaxe there been esta- blislied and acted u|)on, and. to throw the l(Mst doubt upon the validity of powei's con- \-eyed by those words would be of widely mischievous consci[uence. There was indeed a contention ui)on the construction of the Canadian Statute, 43 Vict., Chap. -Iv), that high treason was not included in the words: " any other crimes," but it is too clear for argument, even without the assistance afforded by the 10th sub- .section, that the Dominion Legislature contemplated high treason as comprehended within the language employed. The second point suggested assumes the validity of the Act, but is founded upon tho 202 iisHumptiim tliiit tlio Act has not liooii i-ompli^'il with. IJy thi'7th suh-s nitli Hec'tioii it is provich'd thiit tho iiiiiT;istriit(' shiiU tiiko or cause to he taken in wrilini; t'ull notes of evidence and ot I r proceeding's tliei'eat, and it is su,i,'i,fested that tliia provision has not been complied with, l)ecaus(> thou;,di no coin](laint is uvuh- of inaccuracy or mis- take, it is said that the notes were taken by a sliorthand writer under the authority of the magistrat(>, and l>y a sul>se(iuent jiroeess extended into oi'dinary wi'itinj,' intelliyilile to all. 'J'heir Lordships desire to express no opinion what would ha\e been the etlect if the provision of the statute had not been complied witli, because it is unnecessary to con- sidei' whether tlu^ provision is directory only, or Avhether the failui'e to comply with it would be ^^round for error, inasmuch as tlujy are of opinion that the takini,' full notes of the evidence in .sliorthand was a causing' to be taken in writing full notes of tho evidence, and a literal eompliance therefore with tlu; Statute. Their Jjordship's will, therefore, humbly advisi- Her Majesty that leave should not be granted to pro.sccute this appeal. 'jo;i > Hull ,K full \ isioii !■ iiiis- •itv of i-il.|(. lii'ct if II L'Oll- \th it- ll cs of lI'MirC, not PETITION roll A .MKDK .\[. (O.M.MISSIoX. r. ( '. L'o-jo. TO HIS KXCKLLKNCY TiiK ui<;iir iioNdiiAui.F, |[|■:^■i;^ ciiai.'I.ks KKirir I'l/nY-KiiZMAniici;, maiiviis of LANSDOWNK, (. r.KMiK ( ;i;N KliA I, oF ■llli; IIOMIMON oF CAN AltA. >V('., A'C, iVC. Tlif Pet il loll of !•'. ^\, Lciiiicux, !i(l'.dtat<', of tlic rily ni (jliii'licc, 1 1 iiiiilily rr]iii'sciits : That lie Ikik acted us one of tlw Coimscl of Louis Rid, ai'cust'd mid com i( led oi' I lie crime of lu,<;li treason, at |{ci;ina, diiriiii,' tlu^ cairsc of tli<' i.ioutli of AuLCUst last ; That at tlie time of tiieti-ial of Jjouis Kiel it was cHtahlislicd (liat the laMcr liad already liecii confined for insanity in cerraiu lunatic asylums vi/, ; in 1>7I in rhn Lonf^'ue-Pointe asylum, at Montreal in ISTG, at the lleauport asylinn, (^tudicc in |S71(, in a lunatic asylum at Washington, I'nited States. That eredilihi witnesses, an)on;;;st \\lioni Hevd. Fathers Andi'i' and h'ourmond and lion, (,'liarli's Xolin, and othtM-s, have ]irove(I, at the trial, tha^^ Louis lliel, had iiefoic, during and after the rising in the Xoi'th-NVost, to thi-ii' own knowledge, gjscn sure aiid positive evidence of insanity l>y his deeds, words and general lieha\ ioui- and that they truly l)elei\('d that Riel was not responsihie foi' his actions during the time alreaily mentioned. That this evidence of the insanity of lliel has lieen corrol)orat(!d and strengthened by the testimony of two lunacy physicians, ^lessrs Hoy of t^)nel)ec and ('larlce of Toronto. That Dr lloy lias, moreover declared that Riel had been under his immediat(! care during the eighteen mouths for which he had licen confined at l5eau|iort and that Riel was then sutl'ering from a mental disorder, or ambitions Monomania called Megalomania; that from Louis Kiel's antecedents,the evidence made of in.sane actions and the examination of the accused at the time of his trial, Dr Hoy has sworn that he verily lielieved that Riel was insane atid incapable of discerning right from wrong. That Dr Clarke has d(!clared under oath that for the same reasons as those used l)y Dr.Roy, he was of opinion that Riel was a monomaniac and that h(^ was sullering from a mental disorder which rendered him incai)al)lo of discerning right from wrong, liut that, inasmuch, as he had never .seen Riel before the time of the trial, it would have heen necessary for him to examine the jtatient during perhaps a couple of months, in order to enable him to make an exact I'eport as to his mental condition. Tliat this insanity has been so much proved that the jury have been impressed \>y proof which has been mtule of it, to such an extent that they recommanded Uiel to the clemency of the Court. That yeur petition 1 ^ been informed in a credilije manner, that since the verdict has been given, the iiisanuy and mania of Riel have considraiiiy increased, and that he is actually insane and incontrollable. Your petitioner, therefore hundjly prays that Your Excellency he pleased to appoint a medical commission comi)osed of specialists and alienists, whose duty it will lie to examine the said Louis Riel, actually detained in Regina, in the mounted police military camp, and to a.scertain the state of mind and mental condition of the said Louis Kiel and to report to the authorities accordingly. And your petitioner will ever pray. (Signed,) F. X. LKMii'-fx, Attorufij for L'luin RicL 204 I '/'rinis/iifi'Di |. I, FiiANrois liov, jiliysicifiii ;ni(l Hiiritooii, o()-propri<^t()i' aiifl su|KM'iMt('iult'iit. of tin- luimti(! nsylimi iit iJcauiiort, of llir city of (^iiol)™, solomiily docliirc : — Tliitt all till' fiU'ts iilli".'('il mill coiitiiiiird in tin' iilio\i' ))('t-iti(iii iirc hnio. Ami I iiiii-lsc this soli'imi (Ici'laritidii cniiscii'iitioiisly l>rli<'viuf,' t In; Siinu' tii In- t rue 1111(1 liy virtno of tlu' Act passivl in iln- .■\7tli year of llcr AEnjesty's l{i'it,'M iiitituloil " An All tor tlir siipitrt'ssioii of ^■olllll^al•y iind fxtr.i juilicial oat-h-s, " and have si^iicd (Sii,'ii..d) K. !•:. lloY, -M. I). SxMini licforc iiif at (^)iicIm'c I Ids ) •J (ill day of octol.cr |NS."i. ) (Si;,'M(!d) Am-,.\am)i:i£ Ciiaivkai', J. S. V. j Trii('l»oc, advoi'r,t(''l and a iii(Midn>r of the J^('.i,dslati\(' Asscnilily of tlu^ .l'ro\'iiicc of (.^iicljcc solcinnly declare' : That I was i'n,i;a^cd as a'torncy and advocate for Lmiis Kiel, al the time of his trial for Idfjii triMsoii at ll(\t,diia in the course of (he months of Jidy and Aiif^UHt last. 'I'hat since tlii- time that th.> verilict of ;,'uilty was liro'ii,dit a'^'ainst f/mis Uic' and the sentenoo of death jironoiinced ayainst him. I !ia\e Iiad some eoires|ioiidenci' wii ii ditlereiit jiersons, wlio since tliat time liaAc had fre([uent relations and interviews witli Loui,s Riel, and .all these jiersoiis have declai'ed to your petitioner that they truly ln'lieved that Ijouis liiel was insane and that his insanity had considerably increased since the time of the verdict. That on the :11st .\ni,nist last, neirly a, month after the \-eidict-, tlie R/'verend I'ere Andre. Siipi'rienr des ( )l,)lats, .sent me a letter from l»e;,'ina, in wiiicli amon,^' other thiu;^s lie said a.^ rollows : " M V DiCAii M Ii. Li;\iii',i\. " r>y this time you should lie in Winnipe:,' and in tiiis liope I send you tliose lint;^ to '• salute you and to wish you success in your jjraisewortliy attempt to save the ])oor and " uufoi't unate Jiiel. Since your dejiai'ture from lie,:4ina I liave xisited yourclicnit re;;ular- <' ly every day. " The expoiience i have gained of this man Iiy continual contact with him has only " coniirmed me more and more in the opinion 1 liad already formed of liim, that lie is " crazy and insane (craipn; et toipie, ii ynii scf, says lu>, hlood llitwiii;,' in (lit- vt-iiis ; tlic t('I(';;iii|ili is opnratiiij; uctivcly, anil I fed it, tlicy uVo talking iiltoiit nic, and (|iics(iMniii;L( iiiiliioritics, in ()ttii,wa, aliinil iin'." It is (if simiiiir fantiist ii' visions lie speaks witii nii- vvrvy day. I am convinrrd that Ih' is not actiiij,' a part, lie s|)CMks with a conviotion and a sincerity which icav c no (hmlit in my nund alioiit the state ot' his nunil,h<- has I'etracted his ei'i'ms lait he helicves himself to day lo lie a |ii()phet and in\csted with a ijisine ndssion to ret'ocm the worM on the (hiy he lias spoken t(t tiie (Joint and wiien I i-eprovf i i n for Ins foolish and (^^t^ll- \a;,'ant ideas, he answei's that he snlmdts, Imt tiial he cannot stille the Miice that speaks in him and the spirit that commands him to connniinicate to the world the revelations ho receives. One must havi^ the ferocious hatred of a fanatic or the stupidity of an idiot, to say that Ri(d is not a fool, hecause he is iiitelli;,'i'nl in other matters, as if histoiT was not tilled with such anomalies anion^' certain men who, remarkaiile in certain suIiJi'cIh, have lost the halance whicli contains inlelli,t,'<'nce within the limits from which it cannot escape! without losiuM' its pri<. ileL,'e of i,Miidini,' us or inakini,' us n'sponsilile for oiu' own acts. liiel is tridy a phenomenon worth st ud\in,i,'. lie is under many aspects remarkaide, One must know him and alioxc all study him closely to find out that he is a prey to an invincihle delusion, whiAMi: or C'M .\Tv, Mi'VK ii'.M.n ^, iScc County of Viuidrcnil 'rilirt' Uisri's mid Nit'olct Ht. .It'.iii - I5;i|itist('. Cote St. Louis ct Milr KmiI Ijiu'liiiif J^irisli ni" X'an'iiiics Tdwii-iliiii ot' ( 'laiTiicc. C((. ol" I'i'cscott. , I'iirisli of St. liiuiri'iit County of Two .Motiiitaiii.s City 'if St. Ilyiiciiiilic I>iil iscaii. Si. 1'i'os|h;i', Stc. ( i/'iifvit'c , . I'lirisii i)\' I'oiiitc < 'lairc Wliit.-liali, N. Y Kuxtoii ami Ko\toii Kail.s I'arisli of St. XiircisHc >'aiiiacliiclii', Slia\V(Mi('.,M ct St. Kticiiiic Trois l'isto!cs Hcrtliicr (on liaiit) Maiiilnlia, I*ro\ iiic" of St. Kriin(;ois-Xa\ icr l.sli; J^izivrd St. .JV'i'onit? Tlu'cc ilixci's M^ WHOM hi:m, II. M.Millai., M,P. T. K. McllioL M iiiii"i|inl ( '(luiiril < it izi'iis hK 1'1'TITIOXS — " Kli:i- " CASlv (<',mf!n>i,fl) Nam., Ill ('(if.MV. MiM' ir.Min.itr \\\ WHOM si:nt. I'^lfctitrs . . . Kifiicli Ciiimdiaiis. I'lli'ctorH ( 'iti/.''ns Liii'icii Diuii HxMNill.-. V.^l < 'ity ui ( )tt.i\vii ( 'omity of Mniris, Man Town of SoitI ( Imuvillf, l"'niiii'o SlHTl.rook,- f'itiz.-ns Sii' ( icnt'v ii'vc I ' 'iliiiliituiits. girAi-iM-ll.- l{iv.T I Iliilt'-nm)d8 .lolicttc Slicrln'ooki', < 'oniiitoii Slicr'oi'ookc iMiniliiuii St. Vwvvi'. < 'ninlioiu'ni^ < 'oip.ilv MiiiitiiiaLjny I "oil COMMITA TID.N. It tt Fnn Mi:iin Ai, KNUI'IUV.