IMAGE EVALUATION 
 TEST TARGET (MT-3) 
 
 /. 
 
 
 =% 
 
 
 / 
 
 % 
 
 X 
 
 ^ 
 
 ^ 
 
 1.0 
 
 I.I 
 
 1.25 
 
 ■^ 12.2 
 
 
 6" 
 
 2.0 
 
 U 11.6 
 
 Hiotographic 
 
 Sdences 
 
 Corporation 
 
 23 WEST MAIN STREET 
 
 WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 
 
 (716) 872-4503 
 
 ■^ 
 
 V 
 
 iV 
 
 \\ 
 
 ^<b 
 
 V 
 
 
 ^^ 
 
 
 6^ 
 
 >> 
 
 ^1.^ 
 

 6 
 
 & 
 %' 
 
 CIHM 
 Microfiche 
 Series 
 (l\/lonographs) 
 
 ICIVIH 
 
 Collection de 
 microfiches 
 (monographies) 
 
 Canadian Institute for Historical Microreproductions / Institut Canadian de microreproductions historiques 
 
 ^ 
 
Technical and Bibliographic Notes / Notes techniques et bibliographiques 
 
 Thp Institute has attempted to obtain the best original 
 copy available for filming. Features of this copy which 
 may be bibliographically unique, which may alter any 
 of the images in the reproduction, or which may 
 significantly change the usual method of filming, are 
 checked below. 
 
 D 
 D 
 D 
 D 
 
 n 
 
 Coloured covers/ 
 Couverture de couleur 
 
 Covers damaged/ 
 Couverture endommagee 
 
 Covers restored and/or lami ated/ 
 Couverture restauree et/ou pelliculee 
 
 Cover title missing/ 
 
 Le titre de couverture manque 
 
 Coloured maps/ 
 
 Cattes geographiques en couleur 
 
 Coloured ink (i.e. other than blue or black)/ 
 Encre de couleur (i.e. autre que bleue ou noire) 
 
 □ Coloured plates and/or illustrations/ 
 Planches et/ou illustrations en couleur 
 
 D 
 D 
 
 n 
 
 D 
 
 Bound with other material/ 
 Relie avec d'autres documents 
 
 Tight binding may cause shadows or distortion 
 along interior margin/ 
 
 La reliure serree peut causer de I'ombre ou de la 
 distorsion te long de la marge interieure 
 
 Blank leaves added during restoration may appear 
 within the text. Whenever possible, these have 
 been omitted from filming/ 
 II se peut que certaines pages blanches ajouties 
 lors d'une restauration apparaissent dans le texte, 
 mais, lorsque cela etait possible, ces pages n'ont 
 pas ete filmees. 
 
 Additional comments:/ 
 Commentaires supplementaires: 
 
 This Item is filmed at the reduction ratio checked below/ 
 
 Ce document est filme au taux de reduction indique ci-dessous. 
 
 10X 14X 18X 
 
 L'Institut a microfilm^ le meilleur exemplaire qu'il 
 lui a eti possible de se procurer. Les details de cet 
 exemplaire qui sont peut-£tre uniques du point de vue 
 bibliographique, qui peuvent modifier une image 
 reproduite. ou qui peuvent exiger une modification 
 dans la methods normale de f ilmage sont indiques 
 ci-dessous. 
 
 □ Coloured pages/ 
 Pages de couleur 
 
 □ Pages damaged/ 
 Pages endommagees 
 
 □ Pages restored and/or laminated/ 
 Pages restaurees et/ou pellicul6es 
 
 Pages discoloured, stained or foxed/ 
 Pages decolorees, tachetees ou piquees 
 
 □ Pages detached/ 
 Pages detachees 
 
 EShowthrough/ 
 Transparence 
 
 to th 
 
 Th« 
 post 
 of t»1 
 filmi 
 
 Origl 
 
 bogii 
 
 thai 
 
 sion, 
 
 otho 
 
 first 
 
 sion, 
 
 or ill 
 
 □ Quality of print varies/ 
 Qualite inegale de Time 
 
 n 
 
 n 
 
 ipression 
 
 Continuous pagination/ 
 Pagination continue 
 
 Includes index(es)/ 
 Comprend un (des) index 
 
 Title on header taken from:/ 
 Le titre de I'en-tfite provient: 
 
 Thai 
 shall 
 TINU 
 whic 
 
 Mapt 
 diffai 
 «ntir( 
 baflir 
 right 
 raqui 
 math 
 
 □ Title page of issue/ 
 Page de titre de la I 
 
 □ Caption of issue/ 
 Titre de deoart de la li 
 
 ivraison 
 
 vraison 
 
 □ Masthead/ 
 Gener 
 
 ique (periodiques) de la livraison 
 
 22X 
 
 26X 
 
 3ux 
 
 12X 
 
 16X 
 
 20X 
 
 J 
 
 24 X 
 
 28X 
 
 32 X 
 
The copy filmed hare has bean reproduced thanks 
 to the generosity of: 
 
 Library of the National 
 Archives of Canada 
 
 L'exempiaire film* fut reproduit grice A la 
 ginArositA da: 
 
 La bibliothdque des Archives 
 rationales du Canada 
 
 The images appearing here are the best quality 
 possible considering the condition and legibility 
 of the originel copy and in keeping with the 
 filming contract apecificationa. 
 
 Original copies in printed paper covers are filmed 
 beginning with the front cover and ending on 
 the last page with a printed or illustrated impres- 
 sion, or the back cover when appropriate. All 
 other original copies are filmed beginning on the 
 first page with a printed or illustrated impres- 
 sion, and ending on the laat page with a printed 
 or illustrated impression. 
 
 Les images suivantes ont M rer^roduitas avec le 
 plus grand soin, compte tanu de la condition at 
 da la nanet* de l'exempiaire film«, at en 
 conformity avec lea conditions du contrat de 
 filmage. 
 
 Lea exemplaires origineux dont la couverture en 
 pepier est imprimis sont fiimis en commenpant 
 par le premier plat at en terminant soit par la 
 darniAre page qui comporte une emprein;e 
 d'impression ou d'illustration, soit par le second 
 plat, salon le cas. Tous les autrea exemplaires 
 origineux sont filmis en commenpant par la 
 pramiAre page qui comporte une empreinte 
 d'impreasion ou d'illustrstion at en terminant par 
 la darniire page qui comporte une telle 
 empreinte. 
 
 The laat recorded frame on each microfiche 
 shall contain the symbol ^--^ (meaning "CON- 
 TINUED"), or the symbol V (meaning "END"), 
 whichever appliaa. 
 
 Un des symboles suivants apparaitra sur la 
 derniire image de cheque microfiche, selon le 
 cas: le symbole — ^- signifie "A SUIVRE", le 
 symbols V signifie "FIN". 
 
 Maps, plates, charta, etc., may be filmed at 
 different reduction ratios. Those too large to be 
 entirely included in one expoaure are filmed 
 beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to 
 right and top to bottom, aa many frames as 
 required. The following diagrams illustrate the 
 method: 
 
 Les cartes, plenches, tableaux, etc.. peuvent dtre 
 filmA« A des taux da reduction diffirents. 
 Lorsque le document est trop grand pour 6tre 
 reproduit en un seul clichi, il est film* A partir 
 de Tangle supArieur gauche, de gauche A droite, 
 et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre 
 d'images nAcessaire. Las diagrammes suivants 
 illuatrent la mithoda. 
 
 1 2 3 
 
 22t 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
S P E E C H 
 
 0|- TlIK 
 
 Honorable John Rose 
 
 ON 
 
 The Tariff 
 
 JULY 1 2 111, 1866. 
 
 MONTREAL 
 
 PRmTED BY M. I.ON(,.\]<K.K(. .K: CO., PRINTING HOCSK. i,y (;KK.\T ST. .IAMKS STKKKI 
 
1^1 Na^'inal Archives Archives nalionales 
 ■ ■ 0( Canada du Canada 
 
SPEECH 
 
 i 
 
 ( 
 
 OF TlIK 
 
 Honorable John Rose 
 
 ON 
 
 The Tariff 
 
 JULY I2TH, 1866. 
 
 MONTREAL 
 
 PRINTED BY M. LONGMOORE & CO., PRINTING HOUSE, 67 GREAT ST. JAMES STREET 
 
 1866. 
 
PROVINCIAL PARLIAMENT. 
 
 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY, 
 
 SPEECH OF HON. MR. ROSE 
 
 ON 
 
 THE TARIFF. 
 
 (Specially reported for the Montreal Gazette.) 
 
 Ottawa, July 12, ISGG. 
 
 On the order of the day being called for the 
 House to go into Oommittee of the whole on 
 Ways and Means, and the motion of Mr. McGi- 
 verin in amendment thereto, 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSS said-Mr. Speaker, in entering 
 npon the discussion of the important propoai- 
 tiona submitted to this House by the Hon. the 
 Minister of Finance, I shall endeavor to abstain 
 as far as possible from any observations of a po- 
 litical nature, such as have been made during 
 the debate that has occupied our attention dur- 
 ing the past two days, and to confine myself 
 strictly to a consideration of what these propo- 
 sitions are and of theirprobableeflisct. What then 
 Sir, is the principal proposition which has been 
 submitted by the Minister of Finance ? and in 
 considering this question, it is necessary that we 
 should refer back in order to see how far the 
 changes he proposes in the customs and excise 
 are called tor by the extent ot the 
 wants of the public service for the current year. 
 The Minister of Finance estimates bis outlay 
 according to his own showing, and including a 
 million and a half for the Militia, at $12,376,000 
 for the ensuing year, and estimates the revenue 
 under the existing law, supposing there was no 
 change in customs or excise, at $11,420,000, leav- 
 ing a deficiency under the existing state of 
 things of $950,000 to be provided for. This, then, 
 is the extent of the Ideficit for the current 
 year under the present tariiT of customs and ex- 
 cise. I separate this proposition entirely from 
 the one to meet the floating debt of the Province 
 between this and the lat of January next, 
 and which amounts to the sum of $5,000,000 It 
 is not proposed to meet any part of this out of 
 the changes proposed to be made in the tarlfl: 
 These changes are simply and solely for the pur- 
 
 pose of meeting the assumed deficit of $950,000 
 in the year's services. Now, in order to meet 
 that deficit, my hon. friend proposes to add, by 
 way of excise and increased duties upon the va- 
 rious articles enumerated in his speech, the sum 
 of $2,294,000 to the revenue ; but as that would 
 give him a surplus of $1,340,000, he proposes to 
 reduce the existing scale of duties on manufac- 
 tured goods and other articles, so as to lessen 
 the revenue trom them by $1,300,000, leaving him 
 an actual increase in the whole year's 
 income, as compared with the past year, 
 of about $1,000,000. In other words, in order to 
 obtain the additional sum of 1950,000, it is pro- 
 posed to make changes in the tariff which will 
 effect a volume of taxa«'>a to the extent of 153,. 
 350,000. (Hear, hear.) . '^ makes proposition's 
 which will affect and aui .rb almost erery in- 
 terest in the country, whe.her commercial, in- 
 dnstrial,oragiicultural. Now, the object I have 
 in view in addressing the House is to see how far 
 it might not be practicable to obtain the object 
 the Minister of Finance has in view— namely, to 
 provide this sum of $950,000— In a W"»y which 
 shall not disturb so widely these varied and im- 
 portant interests, because his propositions are 
 not limited to providing the $950,000 additional 
 revenue, but they will, as I have said, interfere 
 with the whole volume of trade of the country, 
 by changes of Taxation to the extent of $3, £00,-' 
 000. (Hear, hear.) I need not, I am sure, make 
 any observations to hon. members of this House 
 in order to prove to them the very serious injury 
 which sudden and oft-repeated changes of any 
 kind in the tariff do to the commercial, the in- 
 dustrial and the agricultural interests of the 
 country. It is quite impossible to bring about 
 ehanges of this nature-especiaily when, as I 
 shall attempt to show.it is utterly impossible that 
 these changes can be permanent— without doing 
 
a grave and serioua injury to erery Interest in- 
 Tolved— injury not merely to the Individaals ac- 
 tually engaged at the time in particular hrancb- 
 es of trade and commerce, but injury that is more 
 widr-aprrad and lasting in its eSects, because it 
 destroys that sense of security without which it 
 is impossible to carry on with safety any com- 
 mercial, manufacturing, or industrial enterprise. 
 (Bear, bear.) This, 1 think, will be the result of 
 the changes which my hon. friend proposes— 
 changes which will bring into effect a new sys- 
 tem of taxation, and operate more or less injuri- 
 ously upon every branch of industry, and all 
 this, I say, for the sake of raising :i:950,000 addi- 
 tional revenne, a part of which after all may, as 
 he himself admits, not '>e required. 
 
 Mr WOUD— The hon member speaks for the 
 city ot Montreal, I suppose? 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE— I hope the hon gentleman and 
 the House w^ll not imagine that I speak here in 
 the interest of any particular section, locality or 
 class; and I can tell the hon gentleman that he 
 is mistaken if be thinks be can prejudice the ob- 
 servations I shall make to the House by reflect- 
 ing upon the constituency which I have the hon- 
 our, I am atrcid I might also say at this time the 
 distinguished misfortune, to represent- (laugh- 
 ter)— I say misfortune, because there is .10 con- 
 stitueacy in the Province which includes within 
 it more important, more numerous and more con- 
 flicting interests,affected by these fiscal changes, 
 and to each and all of which it is my duty to 
 give faithful and impartial attention. (Hear, 
 hear.) I shall endeavour, however, to discuss 
 the propositions not only without reference to 
 local considerations, but in no spirit of partizan- 
 ship towards any special interest which may be 
 affected by them. 
 
 Mr WOOD-I should like to know. (Loud 
 cries of "Order.'') 
 
 Hon Mr ROSB— Ido not like to be interrupt- 
 ed under any circumstances, Mr Speaker, and 
 especially where the House is called upon to deal 
 in the gravest manner with some of the most im- 
 portant interests in the country. (Hear, hear.) 
 I say again, Sir, that I have no special interest to 
 promote, no local object to serve, and I trust my 
 hon friend opposite .(Mr Wood) will find no rea- 
 son, in the remarks which I shall make, to say 
 that I am actuated by a motive so small as the 
 desire to make the great interests of the country 
 at large subservient to those of any locality or of 
 any class. (Hear, bear ) I was about to say, 
 Sir, that I need hardly point out to this House to 
 what inconvenience and loss the country must 
 necessarily be subjected by every change that is 
 made in the tariff. It is a trite observation, but 
 none the less true, that most parties, in any way 
 connected with commercial or industrial pur- 
 suits, would rather have a bad commercial sys- 
 tem.in.operation— even one which would, in some 
 
 degree, restrict and curtail their business— than 
 be subjected to constant changes. And the rea- 
 son of this is obvious : for what confidence can a 
 merchant have, when he enters into the business 
 arrangements of nach year, if, in addition to the 
 ordinary uncertainties and risks that are insepar- 
 able from commercial enterprises, be has reason 
 to fear that he may be subjected to a change in 
 the tariff at a moment when such change would 
 prove most disastrous to him 7 With what secu- 
 rity, I would aak by way of practical illustration, 
 would a merchant at this day order a cargo of 
 tea from China, a camo ot sugar from Manilla, or 
 even Cuba, or a cargo of coffee from Rio Janeiro, 
 if, in addition to the usual risks of trade from 
 fluctuation in prices and other causes, he would 
 find, when the cargo arrived here, six or twelve 
 months hence, that a change of tariff had in the 
 meantime vastly increased its cost to him, with- 
 out in any way giving a corresponding increase 
 to its merchar.table value, because the market 
 could be fu'ly supplied by others at any day by 
 an order sent to New York or Boston in the inter- 
 val? (Hear, hear.) He can have no confidence, 
 I say, that any enterprise in which he may em- 
 bark will prove successful. These repeated 
 changes in the fiscal policy of the country do 
 more than anything else to prevent the expan- 
 sion of foreign trade. It would be a waste of 
 time to dwell more on so self-evident a proposi- 
 tion. It the Finance Minister could but see with 
 bis own eyes the state of confusion into which 
 everything has been thrown, he would, I think, 
 shrink from a prolongation of it, and doubly so 
 from the repeated occurences of so great a mis- 
 chief. (Hear, hear-) Well, Sir, if that is true in 
 reference to the merchant, it is doubly true in re- 
 ference to the manufacturer. The merchant has 
 but his stock in trade— the goods which he im- 
 ports and which he may sell, though without a 
 profit, after these changes take place ; but the 
 manufacturer, who, relying upon the permanence 
 of the tariff, has invested his capital in ma- 
 chinery and buildings adapted only for his manu- 
 facture, cannot possibly take them away or dis- 
 pose of them, and the change affects him to a 
 far greater and more enduring extent than even 
 the merchant. He cannot remove his machinery 
 or his buildings, which represent the capital be 
 has accumulated for the purpose of carrying on 
 his operations elsewhere. If the public interests 
 demand that there should be a change in the 
 policy of the country, it ought to be made with 
 the greatest possible consideration and delicacy 
 —it ought to be made gradually, and with the 
 utmost circumspection, prudence, and caution so 
 as not ruinously or injuriously to affect existing 
 interests (Hear, hear.) Do not let me be under- 
 stood as blaming my hon. friend for having 
 chaaged the views in regard to the commercial 
 policy of the country, which be has hrld since 
 
their baslness— than 
 kDfteg. And the rea< 
 hat confldence caa a 
 tera into the buainesi 
 ir, in addition to the 
 ialta that are inaepar* 
 priaea, he has reaaon 
 ected to a change in 
 I auch cbanRe would 
 n? With whataeoa* 
 )ractlcal illustration, 
 lay order a cargo of 
 ugar from Manilla, or 
 fee from Rio Janeiro, 
 risks of trade from 
 ler causes, be would 
 1 here, six or twelve 
 I of tariff bad in the 
 ts cost to him, with- 
 rresponding increase 
 because the market 
 itbers at any day by 
 r Boston in the inter* 
 1 have no conddence, 
 1 which be may em- 
 il. These repeated 
 y of the country do 
 prevent the expan- 
 ould be a waste of 
 f-evident a proposi- 
 )r could but see with 
 onfuaioB into which 
 
 I, be would, I think, 
 if it, and doubly so 
 3 of so great a mis- 
 Sir, if that is true in 
 , is doubly true in re- 
 . The merchant has 
 goods which be im- 
 
 II, though withoQt a 
 take place ; but the 
 iponthe permanence 
 
 his capital in ma- 
 ad only for faia mana- 
 e them away or dis- 
 igc affects him to a 
 ing extent than even 
 imove his machinery 
 resent the capital be 
 rpoae of carrying on 
 f the pnblic interests 
 be a change in the 
 iht to be made with 
 ^ration and delicacy 
 lually, and with the 
 lence, and caution so 
 sly to affect existing 
 not let me be uader- 
 . friend for having 
 1 to the commercial 
 b he has hirld since 
 
 6 
 
 18S8, 1 do not say that he ii now personally to 
 be reproached for altering what he gave others 
 reason to believe would bo a permanent system 
 at the time when be proposed it, if be aonsiders 
 that the best Interests of the country demand the 
 qhange. The man who rldkx the charge of in- 
 consistency by boldly changing his opinion, 
 when he believes it to be for the public good, Is 
 entitled to credit rather than to blame. Many men 
 would lack the courage to expoaiag themselves 
 to that charge and would rather cling io opin- 
 ions which tbey might feel were pernicious to the 
 interests of the country. I accord that credit to 
 the Minister of Finance, and am willing to be- 
 lieve he now conscientiously holda that the 
 policy which baa been pursued io this country 
 since 1869 and which in adjusting the tariff for 
 revenue purposes gave incidental encouragement 
 to the home manufacturer, ought to be changed. 
 But is the occasion opportune? Utve we time 
 to coaaider with proper deliberation how exiatiog 
 interests are to be affected ; and is the syetem of 
 to-day likely to be more permanent than the one 
 of yesterday? The bon. gentleman will see 
 that the main object of the ohauges be proposes 
 is to provide $950,000. He says if it bad not been 
 (or the extraordinary militia expenditure, which 
 he feels bound to provide for although be may 
 not be actually required to make it, the House 
 would not have been called upon to make good 
 any deficit at all ; but being called upon to do so 
 be Bays be must bring before the Bouse for 
 solution the problem whether we should now 
 adopt the protective system ol the United States 
 or the free trade system of Europe. 
 
 Hon. Mr. GALT— I think I put two points to 
 the House as those justifying these changes. One 
 was the wants of the Minister oi Finance, and the 
 the other the altered circumstances of the coun- 
 try in regard to the reciprocity treaty. 
 
 Hon. Mr ROSE -Well, I understood my bon. 
 friend to say the necessity rf making any 
 change at all in the tariff wa' > ad upon him 
 solely by the public requiremei. ) c f the year. I 
 understand him now to have meant tbat he con- 
 sidered the circumstances of the country were 
 such, in consequence of the abrogation of the re- 
 ciprocity treaty and other events in the United 
 States, that it was necessary to make a change 
 in the policy heretofore adopted in this country. 
 Now, Sir, I am not going at this moment, nor do 
 I think it necessary, to shew (for that has al- 
 reaJy been done by abler minds more conversant 
 with the subject— the bon. member for Lambton 
 [Mr. McKenzie])— tbat the new Corn Law system 
 —the intended tax on foreign agricultural pro- 
 ducts—will be of little practical advantage to the 
 farmer whether in Upper or Lower Uanada. Nor 
 yet do I think it necessary that we should now at 
 this Session decide between the system of frae 
 trade and the Amerioan system. I think that 
 
 what we have to consider in Canada is our own 
 peculiar position, and that that policy should 
 be adopted which is most in the interest of the 
 country, without showing any slavish adherence 
 to the theor y of free trade on the one band, or 
 necessarily adopting the theory of protection on 
 the other. (Hear, hear.) 1 think tbat what we 
 have to consider ii our own peculiar circum- 
 stances— not those of Europe or the United 
 States ; and, viewing them fairly, decide what 
 policy is best ht the varied interests of Canada, 
 and not pin our faith to, or guide our actions by 
 the mere expressions of free trade and protection 
 — expreaaions which may be and indeed are very 
 differently underatood by many who use them. I 
 have no hesitation in saying tbat the true policy 
 for any country to pursue is that which sbal' re- 
 lieve commerce of all its shackles and restrictions, 
 and which shall best effect a free interchange of 
 Its own commodities with those of other coun- 
 tries, without the trammels to which commerce 
 is frequently subjected, either by protection, 
 tariffs, or otherwise. But in this the principle o'' 
 reciprocity— of mutualit,v— is everything. (Hear, 
 hear.) If that is w*hat my bon. friend under- 
 stands by free trade— if the markets of one coun- 
 try are to be freely opened to the producers of 
 another— if he can mature a scheme that will 
 give us the markets ot the United States or of 
 foreign countries, then I for one will be quite 
 prepared to support him if he should propose a 
 measure to abolish every custom- bouse in the 
 country. (Hear, bear.) Let us have free access 
 to the markets of the world, and the people of 
 this country are quite prepared to open theirs. 
 They desire only equality. But my bon. friend 
 has spoken of the Europeei system as tbat which 
 we should adopt. Now, w^t is the European 
 system with which he asks us to be enamoured 7 
 Is it practically a system which permits of the 
 free interchange of the commodities of Europe 
 among the nations of Europe? I am afraid the 
 theory is one thing and the practice another. My 
 bon friend knows that there was no approach, 
 by England, to such free interchange even 
 as a theory till 1820, when, I believe, the first 
 feeble and very limited movement was made in 
 favor of it by the merchants of London. My bon 
 friend knows that from 1820 till 1840 there was 
 but little change in the English customs, and 
 tbat up to the latter period there were, I think, 
 no less than eleven or twelve hundred rates of 
 duty charged on different articles. 
 
 Hon Mr QALT— Which have all since been 
 swept away. 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE— Tes ; but so stringent had the 
 commercial policy of England been in favour of 
 the domeatic manufacturer that for many years it 
 was prohibited to export machinery to foreign 
 countries, lesc they should thereby be enabled to 
 enter into competition with her own maaufac- 
 
e 
 
 turera. Not oiily wm tbcri; b Uw to lliut tjffect, 
 but there wtre proTHloni by which the ship thi»t 
 ciirricJ It was liable to be «el«ed ; the cuptaia 
 who aluncil lh'<ir bllU ot'lndini! was sutjeotod to 
 thepenaltlcj of both floe and imprisonment. It 
 WHS a criminal offoiice to Induce o akillj-d 
 wori<ninn to emigrate to u foreign country, 
 where his sljill might have the effect of improv- 
 ing I'lircitjn tnamifacturea. There waa a rigid 
 Byatein ot exclusion, almost ol' ubsolute prohibi- 
 tion ; and under this condition of alfaira Eng- 
 land, in IS 19, was found to be in aurh a position 
 H3 to enable her to reverse entirely her former 
 policy and to permit the competition of the 
 world. My hon friend will hardly deny that up 
 to that time such was the commercial policy of 
 England. 
 
 Hon Mr GALT— I will only say this, that after 
 the policy of England waa made free there was 
 an immense development of her trade and a great 
 improvement in the condition of the people. 
 
 Hou Mr ROSE— There can be no question 
 about that, and I am quite prepared to admit It, 
 although other ciruumstances— such as railways 
 and 'he increased facilities of transport and of 
 inltr.'ourde h»d much to do with that. Let my 
 position in this matter be not miHundtTBtood. I 
 have nfcver been, nor never will bo, an advocate 
 of any policy which shall give to home manu- 
 fiictures that sickly growth which depends solely 
 on legislative protection, or which shall increase 
 to any appreciable degree the cost of any article 
 to the consumer at large ; but wbut I desire to 
 show, and what I hope the House will spare me 
 a few moments in order to impress upon it, is the 
 great circumspection and care which the English 
 ste.tcamon of that day had for the interests that 
 had grown up undePthe former protective i)olicy, 
 and the gradual, caatious and considerate way 
 in which they were dealt with. They were care- 
 ful not to abolish at one stroke of the pen, as my 
 honorable friend proposes to do, but gradually 
 and slowly to reduce the protective duties that 
 had previously existed, and under which the 
 manufactures of England had arisen. I shall 
 not, I thmk, bo aeking too much if 1 urge on the 
 House that they follow the same courge-'-to 
 have the some regard for existing interests here, 
 which Sir Robert Peel, Mr. Huskison, Mr. 
 Oladstone, those eminent statesmen, who were 
 the foremost advocates of free trade, manifested 
 for the interests then existing in England. 
 (Hear, hear ) In introducing his bill of 1842 
 into the House of Commons, Sir Robert Peel 
 said : 
 
 " With respect to raw material, which consti- 
 tute theelt'tnent of our manufactures, our object, 
 rpeaking generally, has been to reduce the duties 
 on them to almost a nominal amount. In half 
 manufactured articles, which enter almost as 
 much as the raw material into our domestic 
 
 maoufacturii, wo have redticfld the duty to a 
 moderate amount, and with regard to complete- 
 ly manufactured artlcleg, our design baa been to 
 remove prohibition and to reduce prohibitory du- 
 ties, 80 that the.ioanufacturoa' of foreign countrira 
 may enter into a fair competitiiin with our own." 
 (.Hear, hear.) 
 
 And Mr. Gladstone, in reference to thia policy 
 and to the legislation of Parliament from 184'^ to 
 18M, siiid : 
 
 "It was an attempt to make a general ap- 
 proach to the following rules : First, the remo- 
 val of prohibitions. Secondly, the reduction of 
 duties on manufactured articlea,and of protective 
 duties gen')rally, to an average of twenty per 
 cent, ad valorem. Thirdly, on partially manu- 
 factured articles, to rates not exceedinu ten per 
 cent. Fourthly, on raw material, rates not ex- 
 ceeding live per cent." 
 
 Hero, then, was laid down a policy which, wltb 
 a general reduction of duties on manufaoturea, 
 was esaeutiallv discriminatory on behalf of 
 domestic interests ; and I will presently show in 
 what particulars my bon. friend (Mr. Gait) has 
 dcparicd from these principles. 
 
 Hon. Mr. OALT— I think if my hon. fritnd re- 
 fers to Mr. Gladstone's remarks when discussing 
 the duties on silks, he will find that be did not 
 propose to discriminate in favor of the homo 
 manufacture ; but I shall be prepared at the 
 proper time to show that my course has not been 
 dill'erent from that pursued in England. 
 
 Hou. Mr. ROSE— I think my hon. friend is m 
 error. Here is what Mr. Gladstone said in refe- 
 rcucB to that very thing. 
 
 Hon. Mr. GALT— When wssthat? 
 
 Hon. Ml. ROSE— In 1853. 
 
 Hon. Mr. GALT-~No, it was in 18G3 that ho 
 spoke on those duties. 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE— Oh, that was at the time of 
 the Treaty, which gave tqaivale;it3. My hon. 
 friend knows that It waa not till then that the 
 manufactuiers had their protection entirely tak- 
 en off. It was under the Treaty, in virtue of 
 which France said : "If you will take our silks, 
 our wines, etc., we will admit your iron and coal 
 aud other articles." It was a Treaty in which 
 concessions were made by one country, in return 
 for etiuivalents by the olhor. With reference to 
 the ribbon manufacturers in Coventry, Mr Glad- 
 stone made the following remarks, which I read 
 in order to show with what care and tenderness 
 existing interests were dealt with :— 
 
 " In so far as silk is an article into the manu- 
 " facture of which protection enters, the protec- 
 " tion has mainly rtference to a certain class of 
 operatives with respect to trhom it would be the 
 disposition of Parliament to proceed carefully 
 " and with great citeumspeclion." 
 
 Hon. Jlc UALT— What is the date of that? 
 Hon. Mr ROSE-1853. 
 
I rcdiicad the duty to a 
 witb r^tiard to complete- 
 >B, our deaiRu hag bven to 
 to reduce protiibttorr du- 
 oluroe'of forcinn countrirs 
 imputitioD witb our owd." 
 
 In raferecce to thia policy 
 r Patliamcnt from 184'^ to 
 
 , to mttke a gdaeral ap- 
 K rulcB : First, the r«mo- 
 leoondly, the reduction of 
 Rrtlcles,f»od of protective 
 1 avorHgo of twenty per 
 rdly, on partitilly manu- 
 Les not excecdioK t«D per 
 ,yt maturial, rates not ex- 
 
 lown II policy which, witb 
 diitic'3 on mauufitoturtiiii, 
 iminntory on bebalt of 
 d I will preaentlr show in 
 on. frieud (Mr. Quit) has 
 'incipled, 
 
 hints if my bon. fritnd re- 
 remarks wbendiacussing 
 will lind that he did not 
 .to in favor of the homo 
 ball bo prepared at the 
 at my course baa not been 
 iued in EnKlind. 
 bink my bon. friend is in 
 !r. Gladstone said in refe- 
 
 g- 
 
 ben WR8 thai 1 
 18J3. 
 3, it was in 1863 that be 
 
 thdt WAS at the time of 
 ve tquivaleut3. My bon. 
 iras not till then that the 
 ir protection entirtiy tak- 
 the Trertty, in virtue of 
 fyou will take our silks, 
 I admit your iron and coal 
 [t was a Treaty in which 
 ) by one country, in return 
 olhor. With reference to 
 its in Coventry, Mr Glad- 
 ing remarks, which I read 
 what care and tenderness 
 I dealt with : — 
 
 an article into the manu- 
 tection entors, the protec- 
 ■rence to a certain class of 
 t to whom it would be the 
 merit to proceed earejutty 
 ispection." 
 
 hat is the datooftbat? 
 53. 
 
 Hon. Mr OALT-But Mr Gladstone in bB3 
 was not the seme man at Mr Gladatono in IH.a. 
 
 lion. Mr PUSR-Wrtll,r am not aware that Mr 
 aiadgtone.ia 18ti3, had departod from the prin- 
 ciples of Mr Gladstone, in IS'),'*, for 
 he has been foremost in the ranks of 
 free-traders since the discussion on Free 
 itado separated iho Oouservative party 
 We shall see by and by how my hon friend re- 
 conciles bis proposals with the principle en 
 which thoy acted in Ku«land— letting raw mate- 
 rials Iq free— partially manufactured at a sli(il.t 
 duty, and wholly manufactured at a still hlKher; 
 and above all, by cheupening articles of food? 
 But as he professes to take Mr Gladstone of 18U4 
 as his pattern, he will, perhaps, permit me to ask 
 whether in his tarill' he is not 8i)plying the rule 
 which Mr Gladstone lays down as "grossly un- 
 just." In his speech on the tariff of MA, he 
 says :— 
 
 " Our system is a system which is grossly un- 
 just, unless it is uuiformly and universaUy up. 
 plied. It would be monstrous to say to uuy 
 branch of Industry or class of British producers • 
 ' We will expose you to foreign competition,' un- 
 less we likewise say to them : ' All you want at 
 home we will take care you shall have on the 
 best terms that wo can get,' that is the principle 
 ofjustice." 
 
 I have read from Sir Robert Peel's speech in I 
 1842 ; I now read from a speech he ilelivered in 
 the House of Oommons in 1840, He hud been 
 taunted with a change of opinion and a change 
 of policy, and he manfully avo,ved that he had 
 changed. He h,*d been charged aiso vith advo- 
 cating a principle, which involved the removal 
 of duties levied on articles of consumption for 
 
 : revenue purposes. With reference to this, he 
 
 t said : — 
 
 I "I make no such proposition, and defend no 
 '8U';h doctrine. Nay, I do not advise, even with 
 reference to purely commercial considerations, 
 the fauddet and violent application of principles 
 theoretically true. 1 do not abolish all protect- 
 ,ive duties; on the contrary, the amended tarilT 
 |niaintains many duties that are purely protect- 
 Uve, as distinguished from revenue dutie.s " 
 
 If we in Canada have been proceeding on a 
 false system, we ought, in changing it. to deal 
 .^ith great tenderness with those whose fortunes 
 lnT7°. u'° '"^ altef^tion we may make , in 
 JEngland whenever the interests of the great 
 kassesof the nation have required a ch.,nge of 
 Kl?;. bfs never been effected without the 
 lirln ^ T'* ^"°*'* consideration being 
 lelr^ Zf , '°*'™"' involved. (Hear, 
 
 fhe Earn™ ''''*°"" °^ introduction of 
 
 IheEuroi^an system, which my hon friend 
 fays has been so successful - let ae 
 
 read what Mr Oladitone stated in big cele- 
 brated letter to the President of the Manohester 
 Chamber of Commerce, showin« what the sucoeii 
 of the policy, which my hoa friend dcscri'jCH ai 
 the " European policy has been. 
 
 "Between 1841 and iHt,'., Iheld omoe In the 
 Board of Trade ; and this was the period during 
 whi(!h England was most actively engiiBcd in the 
 endeavour to negotiate with the principal States 
 of the civilized world, treaties for the reciprocal 
 reduction of duties upon imports. The taek was 
 plied on our side with sullicient zeal ; but in 
 every case we fiiilcd. I am sorry to add 
 my opinion that wo did more than fail. The 
 whole operation seemed to iilacu us in a false 
 position. Its temlonc:' was to lead countries to 
 regurd with jealousy and suspicion as boons to 
 foreigners alterations m their laws, which, though 
 doubtless of advantage to foreigners, would been 
 of far greater advantage to their own inhab- 
 itants.'' 
 
 Mr Olad.itone shews here the diflloulties in the 
 way of the European system, which my hou 
 fried says we ought to adopt-the principle and 
 theory of which I admit are right ; but we do not 
 find that it has been 8ucee6af\il hitherto in prac- 
 tice, for many countries still refuse to com'; into 
 the principles of free-trade, which England has 
 endeavoured to enforce. I think we ciinnot 
 overlook some circumataaces connected with our 
 position here, which must force themselves on the 
 notice of the House, and the attention of the 
 cou, try. For a number of months in the year, 
 there is an almost enforced idleness on a largo 
 part of our population. Our great waters are 
 sealed up. we have no fiihing, and our 
 agricultural operatimis are suspended. To 
 provide employment and profitable occupa- 
 tion for the masses, where idlcnosa with all its 
 demoraiizinR consequences would oil, rwise ex- 
 ist, is a duty which no statesman can safely dis- 
 miss from his regard. And, if you find that there 
 are hundreds K.nd thousands of our population 
 going abroad, to give their Uoour for the means 
 of subsistence in a foreign country, that con- 
 sideration is one which demands the most serious 
 and anxious attention of the House. (Hear, 
 hear ) We must consider whether It Is not pos- 
 sible to keep that population at home. They are 
 industrious, frugal, temperate and handy, strong- 
 ly attached to home, and our legislation, so far 
 as possible, should be directed to finding them 
 .■■uch occupation in Canada as shall add to the 
 wealth of the country. 
 
 Mr. SOOBLE—Is that free trade ?-and is 
 every body else to be taxed to And them employ- 
 ment? 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSE— I have already said that I am 
 not in favor of favoring any special interests at 
 the expense of the consumer or of the community 
 generally. But the hon. gentleman knows well 
 
8 
 
 that the word "protection" stinks i . the nostrils 
 of men who. like himself, do not reason upon 
 the subject at all. I quite admit that, like the 
 word "monopoly." it is a very offensiv; e'pres! 
 Bion. and sometimes a bad name is made to go a 
 long way for argument. (Hear, hear.) But ! 
 
 intrresuof th" "' '''"'/' **°"^ to prejudice the 
 Interesto of the general commanity. But the 
 hon. gentleman is mistaken, if he thinks that the 
 enforced idleness of a very large portion o the 
 population of this country is a consideratl o 
 be set aside by a mere sneer at the word •• pro 
 tection " I, Sir, am not one of those who, for the 
 sake of mere theory, or idea, will consent 'to keep 
 
 S you w n IIT ""' "'"^'"""^ « P'"'"'^""' 
 as you will find m any partof the world. (Hear 
 
 hear) Go to the workshops of Concord Ma*: 
 Chester and Lowell, in New Kngland. an^ They 
 will tel you that the most temperate, the mos^ 
 frugal, the most industrio-s and the most skilful 
 tr^Tfi*^ the French Canadians who go 
 thereto find employment, and|it ia not for the 
 hon. gentleman to taunt me with being the advo- 
 cate of an exploded idea, because I maintain 
 that some consideration is due to see whether 
 
 Z'J^TJ'^'T '^''^'^ nnder which these 
 men should be enabled to stay at home, and find 
 remunerative employment in their own countnT 
 I say that the exodus of this portion of our popu-' 
 lation la a consideration which no man ought to 
 disregard Go upon the railways between W 
 
 you will find five, six. or seven hundred of the 
 youth of both sexes going off. This S a fact 
 
 tornevO^'Vl?" ^'"•- ^ »PP«al to the At- 
 torney.<3eneral East, whether he is disposed to 
 d.«egard this very grave circumstance-that 
 
 whiz °. T '""'""'"°° "'' "l^'ly 'easing US 
 -whether he does not think it a fact with which 
 the statesmen of this country ought to dsai 
 (Hear, hear and cheers.) If it can 1^ found thai 
 by the imposition of very moderate duUes 
 
 n Canada would be found more magnanimous 
 than my hon. friend ooposite aivea tZT a-1 
 
 s^ihetTde?- '^ r"^'*^ to\rr£ri^ 
 
 W m,^ ' V^^' '° ^""^ ^'""'da from be- 
 
 ing made a sacrifice market for the surplus stocks 
 of Europe and America, and preventing he pro 
 fitable occupation of oar people. (Hear heaM 
 I now leave that part of the subject, and come 
 
 tnaku.g the change at the present time. My hon 
 fnend. the Minister of Finance. ,«« ^S 
 sooner we make these ohangea the be"tterlthat 
 
 I mu'stt'r;"?'^*'''""°°°'«"^«"ti°-. there 
 
 r;rncenrr r siin 4"^"' 
 
 ""V " ^ ^^'^ sentenced to decanitaf ,■„„ 
 
 cession of small shocks ■ »f »ii . ^"°" 
 
 apply them in such a way a to'd' ''''° ^^" 
 keep the whole interesuIf^^hT c "unt ST: c^ 
 dition of perpetual vibration. I th nk ?t L m 
 te better to have one policy adopted aftll'** 
 and mature deliberatL. fh^S 'ave t"f ^ 
 liminary measure, which will oh^X.u^ 
 sion and even coitinulnce of our fl "'^°- 
 merce, throw donbts onThe posln o "° "'"°" 
 nnfactures, and uu.ettle ever^ g^a int' ""^ 
 in the country. Ifl-ar h»..? „°'®™^' 
 hon gentleman sa'ys th^afthese pro id'cl*'^ 
 are an assimilation in everv resneof t^fi, . °*^' 
 of the Lower Province? Ttw „' '""^^ 
 tion were true, we would h« I \ P"''^^'- 
 With more attirtlfe slt^I ^V^ 
 deny its truth. In woollena a„^ """^ 
 
 tides in the 20 per Tent Istf Sere T'"'' """^ "" 
 tion to the tariffs of the Lower 1^"° '''''"'"^■ 
 these do not constitute the whoHaTV ^."' 
 country; and with respect to nth ^' °^ "■« 
 , whiohlamabouttomenuon eaua.'- ''""''' 
 I both tothe revenue and 7^^ cTes of 7^'*"* 
 Bumption, instead of therTEJl • '.^ "°"- 
 to the Lower Proviace'Siffs ^3 iTg e"!^ 
 divergence than there ever ;a8 be Je m ' 
 hear.) My hon friend says thaTone of ih- ' 
 objections in the Lower Provinces to n„^ f '** 
 tion with Canada has beenXt Je werel?" 
 heavily taxed than the population of thli ** 
 Provinces. Let us see how far fh./ ^'"^^'' 
 correct ; and, let it be re^ll^ thaT tt' 
 hon friend's scheme, we artaoine tnaS^ i, ""^ 
 000 to our taxation. (Hear hear ,R ^A'''"' ' 
 see how it stood before -wh;tw«l"^thet ^1- °' 
 per head of every man in Canada a^co"'"." 
 with the taxation in the Lower P^vTnes'Thf 
 taxation per head is as follows •- * 
 
 In Canada ] 5, 
 
 Prince Edward Island 1 ^q 
 
 New Brunswick , ai 
 
 J^onMrGALT-Wheredo-yougetM^fl,. 
 
 coSc"tn''essr'-°°^^"^''-^^-^'^-^ their 
 
 HonMrGALT-Ido. 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE-Then I will put mv h„„ m,^, 
 "imaeii in the witness box. (Hear, hear Tl h«™ 
 her, a staUment issued by the FiiVept; 
 
at, after Confederation, there 
 uation of the duties on im- 
 le direction of a lower tariff 
 er to prepare the trade for 
 ■ a modification of the tariff 
 't the whole shock shoold 
 Br, he said, have twg small 
 t shock. I do not know 
 9 sentenced to decapitation, 
 ly other painful operation, 
 w have it over and done 
 hter.J I do not like a suo- 
 " ; at all events when you 
 a way aa to derange and 
 Its of the country in a con- 
 >ration. I think it would 
 policy adopted after grave 
 ion. than to have this pre- 
 ich will check the eiten- 
 ance of our foreign com- 
 n the position of oar ma- 
 "e every great interest 
 Hear, hear.] But the 
 It these proposed changes 
 very respect to the tariffs 
 'ces. If that proposi- 
 lid be disposed to listen 
 he scheme. But I wholly 
 lens, and many other ar- 
 
 Ii8t,fherei8anas8imila. 
 Lower Provinces. But 
 the whole trade of the 
 Pect to other articles 
 ation, equally important 
 as articles of daily con- 
 re being an assimilation 
 Miffs, there is a greater 
 'ver was before. (Hear 
 ys tbat one of the great 
 rovmces to Oonfedera- 
 en, that we were more 
 opulation of the Lower 
 3W far that assertion is 
 imembered that, by my 
 ■rt going to add $1,300- 
 ear, hear.) But let us 
 what was the taxation 
 Canada, aa compared 
 ower Provinces. The 
 lows:— 
 
 $1 85 
 
 "1 1 69 
 
 2 81 
 
 do you get your fig. 
 
 hon friend deny their 
 
 'ill put my hon friend 
 (Hear, hear.) i have 
 the Finance Depart- 
 
 ment, showing, first, the whole amount of Ous- 
 toms taxation, then the amount per head, and, 
 lastly, the per centage of duty on the value of 
 our imports. 
 
 Hon Mr GALT— Your figures refer to the Cus- 
 toms duties, 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE-Oertainly. So I intended to 
 be understood. I was speaking of the proposed 
 change in our customs duties, and of the allega- 
 tion that our customs duties are much higher 
 than those of the Lower Provinces, and that this 
 is an impediment to Union. The customs duties 
 levied on Imports are, per head of the popula- 
 tion— 
 
 In Canada $i 85 
 
 Prince Edward Islc.nd 1 69 
 
 New Bruupwick 2 81 
 
 Nova Scotia 2 46 
 
 Newfoundland 3 53 
 
 And now take the per centage of duty on the im- 
 ports—I mean the whole import trade, including 
 tree goods- 
 Canada u percfc. 
 
 New Brunswick 9j " 
 
 Prince Edward Island 8J " 
 
 Nova Scotia 7j " 
 
 Newfoundland 7j » 
 
 Now. if you add the per centage of increase 
 which is proposed by my hon friend, how much 
 beyond this will it be? He proposes to put on 
 $2,500,000, and to take off $1,300,000. 
 
 Hon Mr GALT— My hon friend is perfectly 
 aware that in customs there is a reduction. The 
 amount will be less than it is at present. 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE-The hon gentleman, in addi- 
 tion to excise, proposes to increase the customs 
 duties on many articles, as tea, molasses, foreign 
 spirits, &o, and to impose new duties on flour 
 corn, butter and cheese, and *2 a barrel on pork! 
 I think I have shewn that, even previous to the 
 proposed increase, there is not so very great a 
 disparity between the customs duties of tte dif- 
 ferent provinces, as the hon gentleman told us. 
 I will now refer to one or two important articles 
 with reference to which the contemplated 
 changes will widen the difference between the 
 existing duties here and in the lower provinces. 
 Let me first refer to the article of tea. And I 
 would ask here -as one of the strongest objec- 
 tions in principle to the changes, even were they 
 opportune— have we not been struggling for a 
 number of years to establish a direct trade with 
 foreign countries by way of the St Lawrence, 
 and will that be done by increasing the specific 
 duties on tea, sugar, and similar articles? 
 (Hear, hear ) Let me not be misunderstood. I 
 will be told that I desire to bring trade to Mont- 
 real, and that I favor a system which would 
 have the effect of preventing the Upper Canada 
 dealer from having a choice of markets. Let 
 me say at once, as to that, that I argue for no 
 
 legislative advantage or discriminating duty in 
 favor of the city of Montreal. Progress rests on 
 a more solid basis than legislative favours. It 
 rests on the irtelligenco, integrity and enter- 
 prise of her merchants, on the industry and skill 
 and thrift of her mechanics, and on her own geo- 
 graphical position. I am quite willing that the 
 Upper Canada merchant should be in a position 
 to deal in two markets instead of one. And we 
 know that under the fxiating law there is no ob- 
 stacle in the way of the Upper Canada importer 
 importing direct from foreign countries by the 
 way of New York, rather than by way of Mont- 
 real. Both are open to him on the same terms. 
 ! And we know that several enterprising houses in 
 ! Upper Canada-such as Messrs Foster of Hamil- 
 ; tor., acd others in Toronto-do a large direct 
 I trade with China. (Hear, hear ) But, it ap- 
 pears tn me to be quite certain that, under the 
 proposed system, the Upper Canada dealer, in- 
 ; stead of having the choice of two markets— Mont- 
 j real and New York— will be limited to one mar- 
 I ket. For, with the existing relations disturbed 
 and specific duties imposed, who will take the 
 j risk of ventures with foreign countries extending 
 I over many months, when he can telegraph to 
 ! New York and get the articles lying there in bond 
 I on the same terms ? When the merchant can do 
 this, he is not likely to run the risk which is in- 
 volved in all the chances and accidents of an 
 j extended enterprise, with a tariff in whose sta- 
 i bility no confidence can be placed. The same 
 1 considerations, as to specific duties, applies to 
 ! the article of sugar. Is it not manifest that the 
 hon gentleman's proposition will iojuriously af- 
 fect the trade which he and his colleagues have 
 lately spent so much time and labour to bring 
 about with the West Indies ? (Hear, hear.) 
 I Who will take the risk of importing sugars from 
 1 foreign countries, if not allowed to enter them at 
 i their cost in the country whence last exported ? 
 I Hon. Mr. GALT— That is not the view of the 
 I Montreal Board of Trade. 
 ! Hon. Mr. ROSB-My hon. friend is altogether 
 I mistaken. It is their view. I have got here the 
 { report to which the hon. gentleman refers. But 
 1 let me say that even if that body advocated spe- 
 : cifio duties in foreign articles, I should think 
 they were wrong in the general interests of the 
 country. At the same time, the suggestions of 
 practical men are always of great value. I am 
 not among those who blame my hon. friend for 
 any supposed inconsistencies in preparing his 
 tariff. It is impossible for one in his position to 
 take counsel with the community at large. If he 
 consults with any one class, his intentiona must 
 leak out. He is obliged to recede back upon 
 himself and upon the information which be can 
 get in his own department, and which cannot be 
 expected to be of that practical character which 
 men engaged in the trade would famish. Ifiear 
 
10 
 
 V 
 
 hear.] I know he was debarred from auch in- 
 formation. It would have been imprudent in 
 hira to have sought it. And the greatest allow- 
 ance must be maJe for a Minister of Finance 
 who sits down to make a tariff, necessarily de- 
 barred from consulting with those who can beat 
 Rivo h.m information, because, if he does so. he 
 may give advantage to one class or interest over 
 another Whoever may be in power, I shall 
 always be disposed to make great allowance for 
 any man placed in that most difTicuIt and res- '■ 
 ponaibl;. position. So far as any minor mattera ■ 
 ct detail ,n this tariff are concerned, I should be i 
 disposed therefore to allow the greatest lattitude i 
 and the greatest consideration. But, coming ) 
 back to the sugar duties, does the hon. gentleman i 
 mean to deny this, that the imposition of specific , 
 duties 13 antagonistic to the encouragement of 
 direct trade ? 
 
 Hon. Mr^GALT-I s.ay this, that the trade, not 
 merely in Montreal, but elsewhere, have sought 
 a change. The hon. gentleman is aware that the 
 existing taritr was found to operate very iniuri- 
 ously, and the matter was referred by the Mont- 
 real Board of Trade to a committee. The com- 
 mittee have made a report, in which they sav 
 they would prefer ad valorem duties, but that 
 there are certain objections to them which, they 
 think, will outweigh the advantages, and thev 
 would prefer the duties on sugars should be 
 be made speciho, and should be made to apply to : 
 d.llerenl qualities. The only point of difference 
 between myself and the Board of Trade in Mont- i 
 real is in reference to the classification of augara i 
 They agreed to the duties being specific, and i 
 Zh ''"'"''' ^^ " «''*''"*'«'» scale of i 
 
 Hon. Mr. R03E-My hon. friend is entirely ' 
 wrong. I shall road what the committee say in 
 their report :--. 
 
 " But the true remedy we think would be found 
 m making all sugar subject to a uniform ad 
 valorem rate of duty, the aimplest of all plans 
 and the fairest to all classes. Objections to this 
 we see only two,~pos3ible undervaluing which 
 eflicient appraisement would prevent, and the 
 aggravation of high prices in dear times, by high 
 duties; an objection applying equally to nearly 
 the whole tariff. Should these be dee-ned suffi- 
 cient reasons for another course, then we would 
 as the best alternative recommend a scale of speci- i 
 fie duties, at many different rates proportioned t. 
 different values, and for this purpose would sug- 
 gest adoption of grade well known as ' Dutch 
 numbers,' " &c, 
 
 They first say a uniform admlomn duty is 
 the b^st of all, and then state that there are but ' 
 two objections to it, one in reference to the un- 
 dervaluing : and the other in case of high prices. 
 Then tuey add -if you consider these two objec- 
 tiona which they say can be met, to be insur- 
 
 mountable, they would say, the beat alternative 
 lies m levying the duties at different rates, pro- 
 proportionate to the different values 
 I Hon Mr GALT : That is my view " 
 I Hon Mr ROSE: Well, you have acted very 
 I differently. Now, I would urge the Hon Finance 
 I Minister not to trammel this question with any 
 , sectional views or considerations. I ask him is 
 I mIo/'*". v*'^''*° °'''=''*°' precluded at this 
 
 any advantage accruing to him through trading 
 ; by way of Montreal, any more than by New 
 York, under our existing law? 
 
 Hon Mr GALT; Not when importing- but if 
 he buys it is different. ^ ' ' 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE : It is the same thing whether 
 
 he imported byMontrealorNewYork.'ltis open 
 the importer to use whatever route he pleases 
 It he imports directly, and even the buyer hw 
 now the benefit of two markets. I feeHt s in^ 
 dispensably necessary we should have more time 
 to consider what the practical effect of these 
 
 ^ estaTh" '°'°'* '" "' °" '"' commercial inter- 
 e s of the country. It is no light thing to make 
 a erations in the tariff of a character to dirurb 
 exist ng commercial regulations, and deter mer- 
 
 , chants from embarking in great trading ent- 
 
 ' oSnT ?' ^^^^ '' '""'• "'^ '"^^ generaC's- 
 perity of the country. He must feel some sort of 
 
 confidence in the stability of our systems and 
 
 ' unL"\ '; f *° '^" "" "^^^^ °f -i°'e»' and 
 unexpected changes. (Hear, hear.) I think that 
 I such considerations as these should not l^ os 
 : sight of by the Government of the country 
 . Hon Mr GALT-These objections do not effect 
 
 affected by the importations by any particular 
 the importations come here 
 
 Hon Mr HOLTON-That'is not the doctrine of 
 a few years ago. 
 
 Hon Mr ROSB-I venture to enter my solemn 
 and earnest protest against this doctrine. I sav 
 , It concerns very much the interest of the couu- 
 I try. (Hear hear ) The agriculturist cannot 
 flourish without commerce; neither can one or 
 other of them flourish without manufactures 
 j The interests of any one are not opposed to those 
 ! of any other. No country can flourish unless 
 : these three interests go hand in hand 
 I To say that it is a matter of indifference whether 
 I we have a foreign trade or not; whether we im- 
 port ourselves or depend altogether on New York 
 or Boston, is quite extraordinary, and a state- 
 ment against which I protest. [Cheers.) Look 
 at the amount of capital being disseminated in 
 Montreal at this moment by means of our folgn 
 trade through the St Lawrence. Why at tr 
 Preaent time there are some 70 or 80 ships in that 
 port which after bringing cargoes from Europe 
 and elsewhere, are loading the coarse grains and 
 
7 would say, the beat alternative 
 ;he duties at different rates, pro- 
 
 the different values. 
 T : That is my view. 
 
 5K : Well, you have acted very 
 w, I would urge the Hon Finance 
 trammel this question with any 
 or considerations. I ask him is 
 dian merchant precluded at this 
 S in any foreign market Is there 
 kocruinis to him through trading 
 treal, any more than by New 
 existing law ? 
 
 f '. Not when importing : but if 
 •rent. 
 
 : It is the same thing whether 
 ontrealorNewY-ork. It is open 
 > use whatever route he pleases 
 ■ectly, and even the buyer has 
 3f two markets. I feel it is in- 
 »ary we should have more time 
 t the practical effect of these 
 ;o be on the commercial inter- 
 7. It is no light thing to make 
 tariff of a character to disturb 
 ial regulations, and deter mer- 
 arking in great trading enter 
 
 1 to build up the general pros- 
 ;ry. He must feel some sort of 
 
 stability of our systems, and 
 • fear all kinds of violent and 
 !S. (Hear, hear.) I think that 
 3 as these should not be lost 
 'ernment of the country. 
 •These objections do not effect 
 f the country. It is not to be 
 iportations by any particular 
 immaterial by what country 
 me here. 
 *-That is not the doctrine of 
 
 venture to enter my solemn 
 against this doctrine. I say 
 loh the interest of the couu- 
 The agiicultudst cannot 
 mmerce ; neither can one or 
 rish without manufactures, 
 one are not opposed to those 
 country can flourish unless 
 ista go hand in hand, 
 attprof inditference whether 
 ^ade or not ; whether we im- 
 )end altogether oa New York 
 xtraordiaary, and a state- 
 I protest. [Cheers.) Look 
 >ital being disseminated in 
 aent by means of our foreign 
 t Lawrence. Why, at the 
 e some 70 or 80 ships in that 
 'ging cargoes from Europe 
 ading the coarse grains and 
 
 11 
 
 
 other products of Oa^jaaa for shipment to Bcg- 
 land. Several millions DUBh^ls of oats are thus 
 being placed in thoae vessels, which cannot be 
 sent to the tTnited States owing to the repeal of 
 the Reciprocity Treaty. Will ray hon frieud, the 
 Finance Minister, tell us, in view of such facta, 
 that foreign commerce is of no use to a country, 
 and that we should be content to bo the brokers 
 or retail dealers for the New York merchants ? 
 If we cannot build up a trade of our own, we are 
 not fit to assume the position of a new nation- 
 ality. (Cheers.) To say that the merchants of 
 Canada are not to go to China, India, Cuba or 
 South America, and import thence coffee, tea, 
 sugar, and other products of these lands direct, 
 but that they must purchase them second-hand 
 in the Uuited States from our rivala, the New 
 York merchants, is a doctrine we should never 
 have beard in this place. 
 
 Hon Mr HOLTON— It is the doctrine of the 
 Government. 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE continued : I apologise for this 
 divergence from the strict line of argument in 
 answer to the statement of the Finance Minister, 
 that his changes are a gradual approximation to 
 the tariffs of the Lower Provinces. Now, with 
 regard to the article of tea, from the duty on 
 which are obtained nearly a twelfth part of our 
 customs revenue. It is proposed to add three 
 cents per lb to the present duty, which will 
 make the average duty twelve and a half cents 
 per lb. The tariff in New Brunswick on this ar- 
 ticle is, on ordinary black tea four cents per lb, 
 and eight cents for green tea. 
 
 Hon Mr BROWN-That is to caualize the 
 tariffs between the different countries. (Laugh- 
 ter.) 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE— In Nova Scotia the duty on 
 black tea is six cents per lb ; in Prince Edward's 
 Island it is fourpence per lb. Island currency, 
 equal to 5J cents, while ours is twelve and a baif, 
 as I said before. Is this a gradual aaaimilation 
 to the tariff of the Lower Provinces? This is ! 
 not a small and unimportant article that we are ' 
 dealing with, but one that enters into the con- 
 sumption of every man, woman and child in the 
 country. 
 
 Hon Mr GALT— How can you raise any objec- 
 tion to this commodity when it is all imported. 
 There is no tea produced in this country to come 
 into competition with any of the intei?8ts you 
 seem desirous of protecting, and th.» present 
 change la merely a queation of revenue. 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE— According to the doctrine of 
 my bon friend, that it ia of no importance whe- 
 ther our trade comes by the gt Lawrence or New 
 York, it would be a matter of perfect indiffer- 
 ence. But if, on the contrary, it be a mntter of 
 importsnce that oar importations should come 
 by the 8t Lawrence, would he in face of ths 
 present changes if engaged in mercantila 
 
 transactiona. be disposed to oraer a cargo of tea 
 from the place of growth, knowing that in six or 
 eight months there must probably be further and 
 even greater changes in our tariff, perhaps 
 reducing duties on such articles to the New 
 Brunswick and Nova Scotia standard ? Seeing 
 that it takes upwards of six months to bring a 
 cargo of tea from China, our Canadian merchants 
 will be deterred from such entt-rprisoa by the 
 prospect of such furllier changes within a uhort 
 period. 
 
 Hon. Mr. GALT-The article could go into 
 bond. 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSE— Yes, but the importer may be 
 compelled to take it out of bond before you again 
 lower the duty. We had a practical illustration 
 of the loss to the importer about the time the last 
 tariff changes were made. A cargo of coffee 
 from Rio Janeiro was on its way to Montreal ; 
 but the vessel happened to be detained a few 
 days a short distance below Quebec ; before her 
 arrival at which place, the changes had t»ken 
 effect, which caused a losa to the importers of, as 
 T have been informed, nearly $30,000 in addi- 
 tional duties. 
 
 Hon Mr. GALT— It must have been a long 
 time ago. 
 Hon. Mr. HOLTON-It was in 18G2. 
 Hon. Mr. GALT— The tendency of the tariff 
 has been downwards since 1850 as regards coffee. 
 j Hon. Mr. DORION here read from the journals 
 an extract of the tariff of X'^.iVi shewing there 
 I had been an increase in the duty on coffee, mak- 
 ing three cents in addition to the ad valorem 
 duty. 
 
 Hon. Mr. GALT— I must sav it is an old worn 
 out cry that the merchant pays the duty. It is the 
 consumer who pays it, and it ia perfectly absurd 
 for any one to 3B,y that the merchant who im ports 
 a cargo of tea suffers any loss from any change 
 in the duties. 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSE— I am perfectly aware that 
 as a genera) rule the consumer pays the duty ; 
 but the hon. gentleman knows that on changes of 
 duty the price which the merchant can get rarely 
 increases in proportion to the duty, simply be- 
 cause the market may have been, or may after- 
 wards be fully supplied. My hon. friend has 
 made light of my proposition thai the direct, 
 foreign trade of a country is of some value, and 
 he asked what difference can it make to the con- 
 sumer whether we import by way of New York 
 or .Montreal. Sir, I contend that the commercial 
 interests of the country are as much entitled to 
 its consideration and guardianship as the other 
 interests. (Hear, hear.) Now, what is the posi- 
 tion of our merchants as regards the importation 
 of teas in the United States ? They do not nffpct 
 to undervalue foreign direct trHde, bur show their 
 appreciation of it by giving ten per cent bounty 
 on direct importations from China Thus a mer- 
 
12 
 
 obant has a disoriminatiDg duty of ten oer cent I P!non„„ m • . 
 
 in his favor in bringing hfe cargo d^cMo he fhe '0^0^:71 ''r' f ' """^ "'"'■«•'•<'"<«' ^ 
 Un.ted States, and my hon. f.iend seems content instead I^*"!*^" ^"^ "'"" ^^ "« '°'"««ts, if, 
 It should be sol '"" - - - 
 
 HoQ. Mr. G ALT- Would you like to have that 
 feature brought into our tarifl 7 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSE-I do not think it wise as a 
 gi^nerul rule to establish discriminating duties 
 but it shews how the United States encourage 
 foreign trade. 
 
 Hon. Mr. GALT-But he admits they are 
 wrong 
 
 emu,. , h,o«i, .i,b M„i ,j', '^ »• 
 
 r,;sr ''■'''•■'''•-« "'•-'"..'» 
 
 Hon. Mr. RUSH ■ 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSB-Well, they pursue a very dif- i eatirj?y am^ve of'L'"''-''' '?''^' "'*♦• """J ' 
 rent course from us, and they appear to flourish Drono eZri!! '^' •"°.?'P"« °° '^bich you 
 
 ferent course from us, and they appear to flourish 
 under it. But leaving this matter, I contend that 
 the change In our tea duties must create a para- 
 lysis In the direct foreign trade in that article 
 during the next twelvemonths. 
 Hon. Mr. GALT-No. no. 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSE-But I amsureof it. Ask such ! have undergone r.nl/"? °° '^' sugar duties 
 rge tea merchants as Torrance & Oo., Gillespie What vv.r« ,h!!.,. * "'' "nportant changes. 
 
 propo e tbe changes. But then comes the nues: 
 lon-Lrst, do the proposed scales and the sped 
 >o duty you impose on each grade carry out 
 your principle? And secondly, is the chan«e 
 going to be permanent? My hon. friend can 
 
 large tea merchants as Torrance & Oo., Gillespie 
 
 & Co., Foster & Co., Isaac Buchanan & Co., Law, 
 
 Young & Co., or others. No one importing teas 
 
 into this country with the uncertainty respecting 
 
 the continuance of the duties, with the twelve 
 
 and a half cents per pound import staring him in 
 
 the face, and in view of our union with countries 
 
 ■whose duty is from four to eight cents, will en- 
 gage in direct importations to Canada for some 
 
 time. Let me now aa vert to another very im- 
 portant article-namely, sugar. I confess I am 
 
 placed somewhat in a strait as regards this; 
 
 in fact in the position of bemg exposed to a cross 
 
 fire. The importing merchant says that the im- 
 portation of refined sugar cannot take place un- 
 der the existing laws, because there is too great 
 a bonus to the refiner; while the refiner says, I 
 am ruined under the old tariff, and shall be I 
 doubly ruined under this. Now, having so many 
 conflicting interests to consider, and desiring to I 
 do tJKbt by all of them, I think it is much bettfir ! 
 
 tbatl Should state my views openlyir.^r , rrpTi;;;^^;^:^:^^,^; 
 Government and the House, than make any pri- ' " "" minister of F 
 
 vate suggestion, or urge departmentally any 
 concession in favour of any interest. The at- 
 tempted exercise of any such private inference 
 would place both the Finance Minister and my- 
 self in a false position. [Heur, hear.] Well, in 
 reference to this perplexing subject of sugar— 
 [laughter] -the proposed changes are also the 
 very reverse of an advance in the Hirtction of 
 assimilation with the Lower Provinces. It is no 
 doubt very necessary that there should be 
 changes in the present sugar duties, but though 
 
 S5ru:t:i";^rr''^"'?-= 
 
 dutv of ,J/ ^ ^^ proposed a specific 
 per lb on raw sugar. He urged it with all the 
 earnestness and ability he could master-and 
 
 '::":!"'" "''^"---'^o - stitet Lfr 
 
 eff ctcf th ''°' '""ren.asterly manner. The 
 eo aUn 7 ''^Po^it'on was to impose a duty 
 eq. lal to 67 per ceat ad valorem on raw suaar 
 and 38 per cent on refined. ( Hear. hearT * ' 
 Hon Mr GALT-The principle laid down is to 
 ZlZll'r "" ^"^ ''''' -ccharine elment 
 
 pr^S;.^rh:-rr^:£ 
 "::ii !'"''.^--^^^ ^^the fve^uent":;;,::! 
 
 for three years, and would rather put up with 
 them six or eight months longer, especially as 
 theykuow th^t the proposed alterations carry 
 us further from, instead of nearer to, the scale 
 of the Lower Provinces, and that these changes 
 will not be complete or final. I believe that the 
 
 ' before. .' '° ""'■'"""' "'^ "<"' ~ 
 ber for Ohateauguay is preci.sely the party to 
 
 complain in the maWer. If my hon frS (Mr 
 
 (Hear) ^''^'''"^''"y *"»« "^ ^^ht to complain. 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE-I have no desire to object to 
 
 he interruptions if they do not interfere with 
 
 the tram of mv argument. I wish to put my 
 
 views on the floor of the House in presence of 
 
 they are faulty, the trade have borne with th^m i the hn member (Mr Qa.O S"'. " T'"' °' 
 for three years, and would rather put ud with , save ,!„»!? nli!.?*"i' *"<^ " ''■'' P^'h^P' 
 
 save time in Committee if I am permitted to do 
 80 now, because 1 shall endeavo- to give practi- 
 cal efltct to those views in Committee. If my hon 
 friend wul convince me that I am wron^ )n mv 
 v>ew9, 1 shall be giad to be put right. Now, Sir, 
 What are the frennt proposals of my hun friend ? 
 
i;{ 
 
 ■1 give more satiafgction to 
 ■»r better by its interestg, if, 
 sweeping changes now, he 
 th declaring that it will be 
 'nfederation to piirsae a po- 
 he has indiosted after union 
 
 'ho was not distinctly beard 
 iioderslood to say that the 
 
 8 on sugar were unjust to 
 
 might concede that, and I 
 Je principle on which you 
 
 But then comes the ques- 
 )po3ed scales and the speci- 
 on each grade carry out 
 d secondly, is the change 
 >nt7 My hon. friend can 
 
 views on the sugar duties 
 i and important changes, 
 proposed by my honorable 
 'I He proposed a speoilic 
 lb on refined and two cents 
 He urged it with all the 
 ty he could master— and 
 house who can state their 
 ore masterly manner. The 
 ion was to impose a duty 
 id valorem on raw sugar, 
 Jed. [Hear, hear] 
 ■ principle laid down is to 
 ' pure saccharine elempnt, 
 JDsistent with the tariff of 
 loaition I made in 1862 f 
 
 tie principle of the present 
 
 must say, Mr Speaker, 
 ' tLe elaborate and inter- 
 am endeavouring attent- 
 boa member fur Montreal 
 *d by the frequent inter- 
 ister of Finance. 
 
 not think the hon mem- 
 
 9 preclifely the party to 
 r- If my hon fr'end (Mr 
 me that I was imerrupt- 
 ily have desisted ; but as 
 •dly think the hon mem- 
 las a right to complain. 
 
 6 no desire to object to 
 V do not interfere with 
 nt. I wish to put my 
 he House in presence of 
 t), and it will perhaps 
 if I am permitted to do 
 ndeavoi->- to give practi- 
 a Committee. If my hon 
 hat I am wrong fn my 
 t>e put right. Now, Sir, 
 losala of my bun friend ? 
 
 In broad terms it is this -to introduce exactly 
 the same scale of duties that Mr Qladatone intro- 
 duced in 1864, with the exception of the import- 
 ant article of molasses. Mr Gladstone stated bis 
 views in these words : " The proposition which 
 " 1 lay down, and which I invite the committee 
 " to proceed on, is that the form of our duty 
 " should be such as will lecat interfere with the 
 " natural course of trade.ntd be the least open to 
 " the charge of offering to the producer or manu- 
 " facturcr a premium on doing something different 
 •' from that which he would do if there were no 
 " duty at all." In other words, he would offer no 
 inducement whatever to the homo refiner to do 
 that in England which might be done cheaper 
 by the foreign refiner abroad. He takes the am- 
 ount of crystallizable saccharine matter— tbe 
 matter that can be profitably extracted by the 
 refiner— and puts the duty on that, so that the 
 foreign refiner and the home refiner stand on the 
 same footing, and a purely free trade principle is 
 established that would satisfy the wishes even 
 of my hon friend opposite (Mr Scoble.) Now 
 tbe Canada refiners say that their business has 
 grown up under the present tarilT: that they 
 have invested in it at this moment more than a 
 million dollars of capital, and that they employ 
 a large number of skilled hands, who, if this 
 business ceases.must seek employment elsewhere 
 Now, Sir, if the effect of Mr Gladstone's Tariff, 
 which it is proposed to adopt here, has been to 
 ruin the English refiner, who has labor, coal, and 
 everything else that he requires in his manufac- 
 ture at a much less cost than they can be pro- 
 cured here, who gets his machinery free, instead 
 of paying 20 per cent duly on its importation— if, 
 above all, .Mr Gladstone himself has admitted 
 within the last three weeks that he has reason to 
 fear that in pracjice that tariff is faulty, that it 
 has induced refining abroad rather than in Eng- 
 land, I think my hon friend will see that his pro- 
 position ought to be amended or modified, or 
 rather held in abeyance, when we see what its 
 practical working in Europe is proved to be. 
 (Hear, bear.) We must not deal hardly or harsh- 
 ly with such important interests. One of the 
 most enterprising firms we have in the country 
 inform us that they have just put up a refinery 
 costing some hundreds of thousands of dollars, 
 in the belief that the present rates of duty would 
 be maintained , but the Minister of Finance 
 comes down with a new tariff, the 
 effect of which may be, I do not say it will, 
 to prevent him from lighting his fires. I do not 
 appear here as the advocate ot any one individ- 
 ual or class ; but I trust 1 shall not be deterred, 
 by the fear of being called so, from doing that 
 individual or class the same justice that I claim 
 for every other interest, I do not wish any tariff 
 to be adopted that will prevent the consumers of 
 the country from getting sugar as cheaply as be- 
 
 fore ; but I say that if by our former policy we 
 induced men to put money into this business, 
 and have thereby built up a manufacture which 
 affects a large number of people, we ought to be 
 very cautious in taking measures that will crush 
 it, and crush also other manufacturing enter- 
 prises in the future, because that may be the 
 result of the adoption of this scheme unmodi- 
 fied. What have been the results under Mr 
 Gladstone's tariff? Several large refineries have 
 been entirely shut up, as I am informed ; and it 
 is stated also that, while previous to that tariff 
 the importations of refined sugar into England 
 were 15,4^ '0 tons, now, since its adoption, they 
 have risen to 49,300 tons. (Hear, hear.) Thus, 
 the tariff has done that which Mr Glailstone him- 
 self was willing to avoid— given a bonus to the 
 foreign over the home refiner. In introducing 
 that tariff, Mr Gladstone said that it was with the 
 greatest difficuUy that he adopted the scales it 
 proposed, because it was next to impossible, 
 without going through the experiments that 
 have since been commjnced, to determine the 
 true standard according to which the duties 
 should be levied without giving the advantage 
 either to the home or foreign refiner. Since that 
 time so important was the subject considered, 
 that an international commissicn was named by 
 Prance, Belgium, England and other countries 
 interested in sugar refineries, to consider and re- 
 port the best method of levying the duties. 
 That commission is still sitting, and so difilicult 
 is it to deal with the question, that they have 
 actually gone to tbe expense of erecting what 
 may be called an international sugar refinery, so 
 that, by experiments as to the true value of the 
 different grades of sugar, they may determine 
 exactly what the proper rate of duty should be. 
 Now, Sir, with all these facts before us— with the 
 knowledge that refineries in England have been 
 closed in consequence of Mr Gladstone's tariff- 
 that it has b. ought in 50,000 tons of foreign refin- 
 ed sugar as against 15,000 tons before, without 
 cheapening it to the consumer— this House is 
 asked to consider the propriety of adopting that 
 tariff, which Mr Gladstoc . himself admits must 
 be altered as soon as this international commis' 
 sion have concluded the series of elaborate and 
 costly experiments which they have commenced. 
 (Hear, hear.) Now, ia connection with this, I 
 wor.lfl like to put a question to the Government 
 as hearing on the practical working of their pro- 
 posed change, because still I admit they may be 
 theoretically right. Everything depends on the 
 scales and standards. There are five different 
 grades and rates of duty proposed, besides the 
 duties on cane juice and molasses. And I wish 
 to know whether tbe Government have procured 
 ani have on hand these standards which are ac- 
 tually in force at this moment, because it requires 
 not only careful appraiaeme it, but also the nicest 
 
14 
 
 samples, to determine, when a cargo arrives, un- 
 der what particular standard it should be put for 
 duty. 1 say that under specific duties of this 
 kind, It is the easiest thing in the world for an 
 appraiser to give an advantage to a particular 
 importer. The roan may be perfectly honest in 
 saying : " Well, I think this cargo comps under 
 such a standard," when in fact, if appraised ac- 
 cording to the exact qunntity of saccharine mat- 
 ter it contains, it ought to be classed under quite 
 a different grade. 
 It being now six o'clock, the House rose. 
 After the recess, 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE continued his speech. He said 
 —I crave the indulgence of the House in resuming 
 tny remarks after already occupying so much 
 time ; but I shall endeavor to compress my re- 
 maining observations into the smallest possible 
 space. I endeavored before the recess to discuss 
 the questions at issue in no party spirit, in no 
 special advocacy of any particular interests, but 
 with a sincere desire to ascertain how the inter- 
 ests of the whole community could be best pro- 
 moted. (Cheers.) I will not consent to be the 
 advocate of any particular interest, or the mouth- 
 piece of any class. I endeavored to show in the 
 first place, that the propositions of the Finance 
 Minister to the extent he intends to carry them 
 were inopportune — were not demanded 
 by the financial requirements of the 
 country ; and that much more circumscribed and 
 less important changes than he contemplates 
 vjTould have answered the financial necessities of 
 the year. I endeavored to show in the second 
 place, that those changes were not demanded in 
 any way by public opinion. It is a curious fact 
 that we are called upon to adopt an entirely new 
 fiscal policy without a single petition having 
 been presented to the House, or a single meeting ' 
 having been called by any particular interest, 
 whether consuming, importirg or otherwise. I 
 commented upon the fact of the Financial Minis- 
 ter's disturbing the commercial and industrial 
 interests of the country by changes proposed, 
 without any outside demand for them, and ex- 
 pressed surprise at the inauguration of a new sys- 
 tem-not the European, but one of protection of 
 the agricultural interest, introduced for the first 
 time in this country. (Ohecrs.) My hon friend 
 the Finance Minister, on hearing of these propo- 
 sitions, and being reminded that he justified his 
 changes, by a statement of the necessity of rais- 
 ing 1950.000 in the current year, endeavored to 
 shift his ground, and say that they were called 
 for, also from the danger arising to the agricul- 
 tural interests of Upper Canada, by the repeal j 
 of the Reciprocity Treaty. He argued that it was I 
 necessary to impose duties on agricultural pro- I 
 ducts for that purpose. Now, while 1 do not be- 
 lieve that policy would benefit the agriculturists I 
 of Canada, I leave their interests in (the hands of ' 
 
 [ those who better understand and represent them. 
 The remarks of the hon member for Lambton, on 
 this head, struck me as being singularly practi- 
 cal and pointed, and with him I fail to see 
 what good the new policy will do the farmers. 
 I endeavored further to show that these changes 
 were going to paralyse trade, and make' more 
 difficult the ultimate settlement of our commer- 
 cial relations under Confederation I further en- 
 deavored to dhow that the system which the Fi- 
 nance Minister proposes as the European was in- 
 augurated in the old world, under circumstances 
 of a very diflferent nature from those in which we 
 are placed. I endeavored to point out that when 
 Engfand did adopt that system, it was after the 
 gravest consideration, and the observance of the 
 greatest care and delicacy in regard to the differ- 
 ent interests likely to be affected thereby ; 
 Aftci that I endeavored to provq that the com- 
 mercial policy of the Finance Minister was in 
 itself calculated to injure seriously the foreign 
 commerce of this country; that while it would 
 benefit in no way the consumers either in Upper 
 or Lower Canada, it would very muoh impede 
 the growth of that foreign trade by the St. Law- 
 rence which it has been our policy to build np 
 since 1858. But it was stated that it was not the 
 policy of the Finance Ministsr specially to pro- 
 mote that trade. Wfll, over and over again the 
 Hon. Attorney General East and i have stated 
 that one of the most prominent planks in our po- 
 litical platform was the encouragement of foreign 
 trade by the St. Lawrence. [Cheers ] 
 
 Hon. Mr. CARTIER-yes, and I pretend that 
 this tariff is not a departure from that policy. I 
 shall show it in my speech. 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSE— The last part of my observa- 
 tions had for object to show that the argument 
 respecting the assimilation these changes made 
 towards the system of the Lower Provinces, 
 while it holds partially good in reference to 
 manufactured articles paying 20, 25 and 30 per 
 cent, and their reduction to 15 per cent,— reduc- 
 tions which, with a due regard to existing in- 
 terests and as part of a settled policy adopted at 
 the proper time I should entirely approve of 
 was fallacious in other respects, and that there 
 was a departure from the system of the Maritime 
 Provinces in placing increased duties upon many 
 other articles contributing largely to the reve 
 nue. I instanced teas and sugars as commodities 
 on which heavier burdens should not have been 
 imposed. My proposition with reference to sugar 
 was that the present system is bad ; that having 
 but two classes of sugar is most unjust to the 
 importer as well as the consumer, and that 
 while I approved entirely of tho principle of the 
 changes— that there should be a certain number 
 of grades, and that the duty on each grade should 
 be apportioned .according to the saccharine v^Iue ' 
 of the article— yet when we consider that the 
 
Qd and represent them, 
 imber for Lambton, on 
 ing singularly practi- 
 ith him I fail to spe 
 !y will do the farmera. 
 ow that these changes 
 rade, and make more 
 •ment of our commer- 
 ieration I further en- 
 system which the Pi- 
 the European was in- 
 , under circumstances 
 rom those in which we 
 to point out that when 
 stem, it was after the 
 
 theobserranceofthe 
 in regard to the differ- 
 le affected thereby ; 
 
 provq that the com- 
 ance Minister was in 
 
 seriously the foreign 
 
 that while it would 
 imers either in Upper 
 1 very much impede 
 rade by the St. Law- 
 iir policy to build np 
 d that it was not the 
 «r specially to pro- 
 r and over again the 
 
 and 1 have stated 
 !nt planks in ourpo- 
 uragement of foreign 
 [Cheers] 
 
 and I pretend that 
 from that policy. I 
 
 part of my observa- 
 7 that the argument 
 :hese changes made 
 Lower Provinces, 
 3d in reference to 
 g 20, 25 and 30 per 
 5 per cent, — reduc- 
 gard to existing in- 
 i policy adopted at 
 atirely approve of, 
 sets, and that there 
 em of the Maritime 
 1 duties upon many 
 argely to the reve 
 ara as commodities 
 )ulJ not have been 
 1 reference to sugar 
 3 bad ; that having 
 most unjust to the 
 nsnmer, and that 
 io principle of the 
 i a certain number 
 eachsrade should 
 e saeeharine v^lue 
 consider that the 
 
 15 
 
 
 question, whether it is to result io evil or good, 
 depends entirely on its working out and upon 
 the class of standards adopted, and when in 
 England it has been declared to be faulty, we 
 ought to pause before we now mtroduce a theory 
 whose effect we cannot tell until we see the re- 
 sults of those experiments now going on in Eng- 
 land. I shall now repeat the question on which 
 the whole working of the scheme as regards 
 sugars will depend. What arrangements have the 
 Government made with reference to the stand- 
 ards applicable to the new tariff? 
 
 Hon. J. A. MAODONALD was understood to 
 reply that they would make the necessary ar- 
 rangements, or that they had been made by the 
 Finance Minister. 
 
 Hon. Mr. ROSE, continuing, said that a great 
 part of the objections I have to this scheme j 
 springs from the fact that it is not final [cheorsj. 
 While at this moment the Canadian duties on 
 tea and sugar are higher than those of the Lower 
 Provinces, you are going still further to increase j 
 them. Then, as regards an article kindred to | 
 sugar, and which enters more largely into the 
 consumption of the people of the Lower Pro- 
 vinces than almost any other— I mpan molasses 
 —the Hon. Finance Minister says he adopts 
 Mr. Gladstone's rate of duty. In order that 
 there may be no mistake in reference to the 
 impression of my hon friend I will quote his own 
 words. He says : ■' But in altering the sugar du- 
 ties, it becomes necessary also to alter the duties 
 on molasses ; and with regard to this article, it 
 is the intention of the Government to recommend 
 that the duties shall be made, as in England, 
 proportionate to the duties on sugar. We have 
 followed the English scale in everything. There 
 is the same amount of duty per pound and per 
 hundred weight, and the tariff is, in fact, the 
 English tariff." Well ; he proposes on molasses 
 to increase the duty from five cents per gallon 
 and ten per cent ad valorem, which is equal to 
 about six and a half cents per gallon or forty 
 cents ad valorem, and to make the duty about 
 eleven cents per gallon, equal to about 70 per 
 cent ad valorem, or a hundred cents per one hun- 
 dred pounds. But Mr Gladstone's tariff places 
 not eleven cents per gallon on molasses, but only 
 eight and a half cepts— not five shillings per one 
 hundred pounds as is here proposed, but only 
 three shillings and sixpence sterling per 112 lbs. 
 (Hear, hear.) So we have here a very consider- 
 able difference between the proposal of Mr Glad- 
 stone and that of the Finance Minister in regard 
 to this article. Let us next compare bis rate 
 with the duty on molasses in the Lower Pro- 
 vinces, and I am informed that any one who 
 would propose to raise the duty on this commo- 
 dity which enters so largely into ccnsumptioa 
 with their population, would never be able to 
 carry it in Parliament I Well then, in New 
 
 Brunswick the duty is only two cents per gallon 
 and three per cent ad valorem ; ia Nova Scotia 
 five cents per gallon ; in Newfoundland five cents 
 and Prince Edward Island five cents and a half. 
 (Hear, hear) Thus the Finance Minister makes 
 the duty in this important article, which is in- 
 timately counected with the question of sugar 
 double what it is in New Brunswick, and the 
 other Provinces. Again, if you look at other ar- 
 ticles, which enter largely into consumption, or 
 use, such as brandy, rum, wine, iron, 
 leather and agricultural implements, you 
 win find the divergence from the 
 Lower Province tariffs is equally great. 
 I will not annoy the House by going over the va- 
 riances m detail, but will do so as they come up 
 in (Jommittee,contenting myself with saying that 
 j it is a transparent fallacy to assert that the pro- 
 [ posed changes, except in certain imported ar- 
 ticles, are an a|)proximation to the tariff of the 
 Lo-ver Provinces. With respect to wine and 
 brandy, I entirely aciiui"sce m the policy of low- 
 ering the duly on direct importation from France; 
 but here again the policy of the Lower Provinces 
 bus been adverse, for Nova Scotia charges lno per 
 cent and Newfound'and 120 cents per gallon, 
 while we charge only 70 cents on brandy. 
 Vow their high duties are opposed to the princi- 
 ple which the Finauce Minister said he was going 
 to adopt— namely, lowering the duty on French 
 products of this kind to encourage a direct trade 
 between us and France. (Hear, hear.) While I 
 do not propose to follow up the present scheme 
 in all its details, let me ask in this connection, is 
 the proposed mode of levying the duty on wines, 
 etc., a wise one? The necessity of testing these 
 liquors to ascertain their strength, in order to the 
 collection of the different duties, will, I fear, lead 
 to extreme inconvenience and practical diffi- 
 culty in this country. The Finance Minister 
 does not pretend he is going to get any more re- 
 venue by this new system ; and with regard to 
 the trade, when was there any change from the 
 ad valorem mode of fixing the duties asked for ? 
 Hon. Mr. CARTIER-Yon do not know '.fit. 
 Hon. Mr. ROSE— If there had been any demand 
 of the trade for this change I think I should have 
 heard of it. 
 In answer to the Hon. Attorney-General West, 
 Hon. Mr. ROSE remarked— What I say is that * 
 the Finance Minister stated that he did not con- 
 template there would be any great increase of 
 duty by the change in the mode of collection, 
 and unless there was some demand for a chajge 
 —unless the revenue was suffering—l think both 
 importers and consumers would say it is better 
 to let things alone. If there is no great evil, why 
 put the trade to great inconvenience by changes 
 in raattera wbcru there is absolutely 
 no necessity for them? (Cheers.) 
 I see further that it is proposed that agricultural 
 
16 
 
 ImplementB, auch as mowing and reaping ma- 
 chines, &c., shall come in free. That may be 
 right or wrong, but apart frnm the fact that the 
 manufacture of those ariicles is a very conside- 
 rable branch of industry here, it is to be noted 
 here that iu New Brunswick the duty on agricul- 
 tural implements is 171 per cent. Then the duty 
 there on boots and shoes, brooms, cbitirs, &c., 
 and articles of that l(ind, is 18 per cent. Uuij it 
 is proposed to reducu to 15 perci nt. When ano- 
 ther change comes to be maue, will we have lo 
 go up to their standard, or will they hnve to 
 comedown to ours? We know that in Now 
 Brunswick they have lately been compelled to 
 add a special duty ot 3 per cent on a large class 
 of their imports, to meet their railway debt, iind 
 the result is that on a great number of articles 
 the tariff of New Brunswick, instead of being 
 lower than what is proposed here, is 18 per cent. 
 It would be us .less to continue the enumeration 
 of other articles where the tariffs of the Ijower 
 Provinces differ fro' \ ours. Enough has already 
 been said to shew how little value is to bo placed 
 on the argument of assimilation ot which we 
 have beard so much, Let me now shew, by way 
 of illustration, how inconsistent in its details 
 this tariff is with any principle of political eco- 
 nomy, and how abruptly it strikes down existing 
 concerns. I select from the many letters that 
 have reached my hands one from the proprietors 
 ot certain Iron Rolling Mills: and I cannot do 
 better than quote the exact words of their re- 
 monstraace to the Minister of Finance : 
 
 " As proprietors of three of the largest rolling 
 mills in Canada, we take the liberty of address- 
 ing you a few words on the proposed reduction 
 of the tariff on manufactured iron, 
 
 " Under the existing tariff there is only a duty 
 of 10 per cent, which leaves so small a margin 
 that it is with great difficulty we are able 
 to compete with the imported article. Wo bave 
 invested in machinery, &c„ from $200,000 to 
 $300,000— a large portion of which we have im- 
 ported and paid a duty of 30 per cent therefor. 
 
 " We employ from 90i) to 1000 men, and pay 
 out weekly $5,000 to $6,ij00 for wages. They 
 are not like common labourers ; are fitted only 
 for that particular labour, which must cease en- 
 tirely in Canada. It has taken us years to get 
 these men together, aa the peculiar nature of the 
 work requires skill and experience. 
 
 " We require to beep a stock of raw material 
 consisting of pig iron, puddled iron, iron ore, 
 scrap, coal, &c , of from$2uO,000 to $300,000, and 
 turu out annually 15,000 to 16,000 tons of manu- 
 factured iron, consisting of sheets, bars, nail and 
 spike rods, valued at ^59 to $60 per ton. 
 
 " If tba proposed reduction is carried iuto ef- 
 fect we will have to shut down our works, as it 
 would be impossible to compete with the manu- 
 factured iron coming in free. The result will be 
 
 about 1000 men, with their fumilies, will leavo 
 imna diately for the United States, where their 
 labour ia in great request." 
 
 Thus you see. Sir, that in this case the remis- 
 sion uf 1'^ per cent duly has the very opposite 
 effi'ct fiom that which it was intended. It lets 
 the article manu'actured h«re in free, instead of 
 the raw material of the manufacturers. [Hear, 
 hour.] 
 
 I sball now allude to another interest, in connec- 
 tion with the propoaed increase on excise, 
 which, if carried intothect, will, it is said, place 
 the Canadian distiller at a great diitadvantage. 
 (Hear, hear ) I speak from information given 
 me by men largely engaged in the trade. And it 
 is a fact I am aware of, from my own personal 
 knowledge, that there is now but one distillery 
 in Lower Canada, the Molaons having oecn com- 
 pelled to shut up in consequence of their inability 
 to compete against the illicit manufacture fos- 
 tered by high excise duties, and the imperfect 
 collection of these duties. What I have to say 
 on this joint I offer in the most friemlly spirit. 
 People if iW drink whisky, and it is just as well 
 that It should be manufactured in the country 
 out of our own coarse grains, which do not find 
 the same ready market in the United States 
 since the Reciprocity Treaty was abolished. We 
 know that when excise duties are high, there is 
 great temptation to fraud among distillers We 
 have had practical evidence of that. I well un- 
 derstand the position of the Minister of Finance, 
 that he does not like to come down to ask, year 
 after year, an increase in the estimates for the 
 cost of collecting excise ; because there is al- 
 ways, not unnaturally, a clamour against him 
 when he makes such a proposition ; and he has 
 been put to a variety of shifts in devising some 
 system dependent on the returns of the distillers 
 thoms'slves. But all these complicated returns 
 —all the forms to be filled up— all the affidavits 
 he requires from distillers — depend upon it, are 
 of no use whatever. JIany representations have 
 been made to myself that the ho-iest distiller 
 would be compelled to go out of business, unless 
 a more efficient check were placed on the disho- 
 nest one. There were two large distilleries in 
 Montreal, but, as I bave said, the Molsons have 
 been compelled to shut up; another firm, who 
 were paying as mnch as $50,000 a month of ex- 
 cise to the revenue, is also now preparing to 
 close — and for this reason, that they saw spirits 
 brought to market and sold under their own 
 eyae at prices less than they could possibly 
 be produced from the raw material. (Hear, 
 hear.) The people who distilled these spirits, I 
 presume, made their affidavits and returns regu- 
 larly : but, of course, extraordinary frauds must 
 have been committed. One weil-knowii chfir.'^"- 
 ter was known to boast that be was making a 
 clear profit of $5000 a week by cheating the rev- 
 
17 
 
 famitiea, will Iparo 
 Stales, where their 
 
 his case the rerois- 
 iho very opposite 
 iQtended It letfl 
 ) ia tree, iDstead of 
 ufacturors. [Hear, 
 
 aterest, in oonneo- 
 crease on excise, 
 ill, it is said, place 
 real disadvantage. 
 
 ial'ormation giyen 
 
 the trade. And it 
 
 my owu persoQal 
 J but one distillery 
 i having oecn corn- 
 ice of their inability 
 t manufacture fog- 
 
 and the imperfect 
 What I huve to say 
 lost friendly spirit. 
 [ it is just as well 
 ed in the country 
 
 which do not find 
 the United States 
 yas abolished. We 
 J are high, there is 
 >ug distillers We 
 f that. I well un- 
 Iini3ter of Finance, 
 1 down to ask, year 
 ! estimates for the 
 ecause there is al- 
 imour against him 
 sition ; and be has 
 s in devising some 
 rns of the distillers 
 ompli(?ated returns 
 I— all the affidavits 
 lepend upon it, are 
 presentations have 
 the honest distiller 
 
 of business, unless 
 aced on the disho- 
 arge distilleries in 
 
 the Molsons have 
 another firm, who 
 }00 a month of ez- 
 now preparing to 
 at they saw spirits 
 
 under their own 
 ey could possibly 
 
 material. (Hear, 
 lied these spirits, I 
 
 and returns regu- 
 inary frauds must 
 ?el!-kQQwu eharac- 
 t he was making a 
 IT cheating the rev- 
 
 enue. Now, to avoid this, you must have 
 an army of excisemen and well paid 
 men of high character too. There is no other 
 possible way of preventing these frauds, unless 
 you have a man of integrity to stand over and 
 be perpetually on duty in the distillery. You 
 must have constant personal inspection over the 
 close receiver. Without this, all your returns, 
 all your oth«r checks, are utterly useless. I 
 know that my hon, friend, the Minister of Finance, 
 IS desirous to keep down the expenditure, and 
 does not wish to ask an additional grant for the 
 coat of collection. But remember to what dimen- 
 sions your excise duties have now grown, if you 
 wish to protect the revenue and the honest dis 
 tiller, y,.u must adopt that system. Vou must 
 pay your excisemen well, and get a clasjof men 
 who are above be-'e bribed. By doini; this, the 
 revenue will be . iner in the end. Tiie Fi- 
 nance Minister no.., / doubling the excise. Is 
 doubling the iuducement to fraud. I hope, then, 
 the Government will nee to making their excise 
 system such as will protec" the honest distiller- 
 tor I tell them they are losing now, for want of 
 such a system, au enormous contribuiion to the 
 revenue. (Hear, hear) And this brings me to 
 another point of not less importance, because on 
 it depends the question whether we shall have 
 any distillery at all in the country. The prsposi- 
 tion before the House ia to make the duty on im- 
 ported spirits 10 cents per gallon more than the 
 excise— the proposed duty being 70 cents atd the 
 excise 60 cents per gallon. Now it is said that 
 this dilference is insufhcicnt to enable the Cana- 
 dian to compete with the foreign distiller. Here 
 ia what a gentleman in the business, at the head 
 of one of the largest establishments in Canada, 
 says, and one whose representations as well on 
 the score of his high character as of his prac- 
 tical knowledge are entitled to the greatest 
 weight:— 
 
 " We are certain that a greater protection than 
 10 cents per gallon is required to enable Canadian 
 distillers to compete with distillers either in Hol- 
 land or in the United States. 
 
 "In the former country, labour, fuel, and even 
 grain for the purpose, are all considerably lower 
 than they are here, while in the Western States 
 unsound or damaged grain, which answers quite 
 well and is used (or distillery purposes, though 
 not fit for shipment, can at all times be pur- | 
 chased at about one-half the price the Canadian ' 
 distiller ia compelled to pay for sound grain, 
 which alone would stand transportation. Be- 
 sides a duty of ten cents per bushel is proposed 
 on Indian corn and rye coming from the United 
 States. Aiain, the freight of a gallon of spirits, 
 in the shaye of grain from Chicago, will cost at 
 least eight cents, while if it he roannfacni''-.1 into 
 spirits in Chicago, three cents per i ii! for 
 reight thence to here would be ampli to- ! 
 
 I gether we consider that an import duty ot twenty. 
 : hve cents per gallon above the excise duty is re- 
 I quired on all spirita to enable the Canadian dia- 
 I tiller to continue operations on an equal footing 
 ^ with his foreign competitors." 
 1 think it will be felt that there is great force in 
 this complaint, that the Canadian distiller by 
 the proposition of the Minister of Finance will 
 now have to enter into competition notonly'witb 
 the American distiller, but with the gin, r»m and 
 every other class of spirits made in Kurope and 
 the West Indies, where the raw products and the 
 ; labor, &c, are much lower. I do not intend to 
 I weary the House by dwelling on this. I would 
 only ask the attention of the Minister of Finance 
 : to the position in which the proposed changes in 
 I the tarltrwillputthe distiller. In connection with 
 this it will be my duty to urge on my hon. friend 
 I such practical action, departmentally, as will 
 Jllow the manufacture in bond and a drawback 
 on goods for exportaiion. The American manu- 
 frtcturer gets a drawback equivalent to the 
 amount he pays of internal revenue, and I would 
 earnestly urge on him as a measure not only of 
 relief to those whose interests he is now 
 so seriously affecting, but as an act of 
 justice to them, that he should extend this 
 system of drawback to all articles, the 
 material of which has paid duty. Take the 
 article of sugar, and the policy of the United 
 States has been the sama as the policy of Eng- 
 land, to allow a drawback on the exportation of 
 refined sugar to foreign countries equivalent to 
 the raw material. Why do not the Government 
 extend the same consideration to that and other 
 hundred interests heie? It is notorious that the 
 refineries now in existence can in six months re- 
 fine more sugar than would supply all Canada 
 the year round, and they ought to be encouraged 
 to open new markets. After having received so 
 much kindness from the House, I shall not tres- 
 pass further on their patience by going over the 
 other articles at any length. I will simply allude 
 to one or two at the present; but, when the reso- 
 lutions go into Committee, I will feel it my duty 
 to endeavor to obtain such modifications, and so 
 to circumscribe the area of the contemplated 
 changes as wilU merely leave what is sufticient 
 to satisfy the wants of the Minister of 
 Finance. And, if I cannot succeed in 
 effecting thii, with reference to all the articles 
 on which a change is proposed, I shall then en- 
 deavor to obtain a decision favorable to the inte- 
 rests which (conceive will be injuriously afleoted 
 by the propositions of the hon gentleman. Ab 
 regards leather and tobacco, I do not yet know 
 whtit the Finance Minister really intends. It 
 appears to be doubtful whether leather is to be 
 allowed to come in free, or if it is to remain 
 charged with the present duty of 20 per cent. So 
 again, with ref rce to manufactured tobacco, 
 
1« 
 
 I 
 
 umlerstood the propo^nl at first to he that there 
 w«8 to bH DO channe. Vow I understand the 
 propoaal id to strilse off the ,in per cent n>l i.„'„. 
 rewduty. And in both theae artielflg we must 
 not forget that the United Htafes posaess grest 
 advantaKB over ua. There ia hardly a village or 
 town in Canada which haa not ita tannery ; and 
 apart Crom the cruelty of destroying pxlating in- 
 terests, you will, if jou take olf the duty, mnke 
 Canada and the Uanadiaii oonaumer dependent 
 on the diaiiatruua iiuciuiiidna of the United 
 Stalea. (Hear, hear) Everyone can lell you 
 that, whereas the cost to the consumer is not in- 
 crtaaed under the existing law, the consumer 
 can depend on being supplied at a rea.sonable 
 and steady pi ice. Cut it ia premature to diacuaa 
 thii until we really know what the definite pol- 
 icy of the Guverument is. We muat, however, in 
 any case, deal as conaiderately and graciously 
 with these interesta as with the others. On what 
 principles— I must repeat the queation-are we \ 
 proceeding ? Is there any delinite leading prin- 
 ciple running through this tariff? What does 
 Mr Gladstone say, speaking of the free trade 
 principle being applied iu one way and not in an- 
 other? 
 
 " It would be m J natrons to say to one branch 
 cfinduatry or clasaof British producers: 'We 
 will expose you to foreign competition,' unless 
 we otherwise aiytothetn: 'AH you want at 
 home we will take c-ire you shall have on the 
 best terms that we can get it.' " 
 Now, on what principle are you to cjmpel men 
 to pay 25 pur cent on machinery, which you are 
 now going to render unproductive by this taiiff ? 
 You say you are to admit raw materials free. 
 Well! take the starch manufacturer. You are to 
 reduce the duty on starch from 30 to 15 per cent. 
 I could understand your doing this, if you were 
 o allow the raw material from which starch is 
 made to come in free. Or I could understand 
 your saying, that a particular interest must suc- 
 umb to what is necessary for the general benefit, 
 ut what are* you going to do ? Corn, in this 
 ase, ia the raw material, and on that raw mate- 
 al you are to put a duty of 10 cents per bushel, 
 nearly 2ii per cent on its value. Is that a right 
 principle to proceed on ? I am informed that, on 
 the strength of our past policy large sums have 
 been invested in this business, on which you are 
 going to impose a duty of 20 per cent on the raw 
 material, while you only give them the benefit of 
 15 per cent on the manufactured article. 
 
 Hon Mr HOLTON — Is the hon gentleman 
 aware, that, in the reprinted resolutions, the Fi- 
 nance Minister proposes a specific duty on starch? 
 The 15 yer cent ad vaWem duty still remains ; 
 but the article is also piaced in the list of speci- 
 fics, the amount of duty being left blank. The 
 Minister of Finance, 1 think, ought be here in hia 
 place, for on this point my hon friend is arguing 
 
 quite In the dark as to the proposition which Is 
 really before the House. 
 
 Hon Mr RUSB-Then agaiu take the soap 
 manutacturer, and diminish the duty in the same 
 way, and you impose a duty of let per pound on 
 hia raw miterial, the tallow and lard which he is' 
 oblig#(4 to get from the United States. So with 
 the oil refiner, you impose a duty of 15 per cent 
 on crude and whale oil, which can only begot in 
 the United States-and you put no additional 
 duty on the refined article. I might instance 
 many other anomalies in the proposed changes ; 
 but I feel that I ou^ht not to exhaust the patience 
 of the House. 
 
 This bringa me to consider the motion of 
 the honorable member for Lincoln. I need 
 not say that I entertain very strong feelings 
 with reference to the changes proposed at 
 the present moment, althongh I might at an- 
 other time acquiesce In some of them, and In cer- 
 tain aspects of the policy af the r nance Minister. 
 I have endeavoured to show, that, as we must al- 
 ter the whole fiscal' policy of the country here- 
 after, the present is not the time to consider a 
 comprehensive scheme like this. And now. Sir. 
 I will state the course which I feel it ray duty to 
 take in reference to the motion of my hon friend 
 opposite (Mr MeQiverin.) That motion proposes 
 and has for Its object that you, Sir, shall not 
 leave the chair for the House to go into Commit- 
 tee of the Whole ; that there shall be no consid- 
 eration whatever of the proposals of the Govern- 
 ment to meet the fipancial requirements of the 
 year— to provide the estimated deficit of 4i950,. 
 000, and to enable the Government to meet the 
 *5.000,000 of floating debt which will fall due 
 within the year, Theao are the alma of the pro- 
 position now before us, and I desire that there 
 eL, il be no misunderstanding about the charac- 
 ter and Parliamentary consequences of the 
 amendment. We must remember in dealing with 
 It that there is required nearly $1,000,000 to 
 meet the wants of the ordinary business of the 
 year; and there is, besides, an accruing liability 
 to the amount of five millions, which has to be 
 met in November next. The proposition of the 
 hon member, then, is that this House shall give 
 no consideration to those requhemeuts ; and if 
 this resolution passes, it is in effect declaring 
 that we will not consider in what way or in 
 what particular the policy of the Government 
 may be modified, or in what manner the financial 
 requirements of the year shall be met. If adopt- 
 ed, it will be distinctly a declaration on the part 
 of the House that, so long as the affairs of the 
 country are in the hands of the present Qovern- 
 ment, they shall not have the means 
 they now asi-: for as necessary to the mainten- 
 ance of the public credit and the proper conduct, 
 of public affairs. (I understand the motion to 
 mean that ; and according to the practice of this 
 
)BitloD which is 
 
 take the soap 
 iity m the same 
 t per pound on 
 nrd which he la 
 atog. Ho with 
 of 16 per cent 
 n only begot In 
 t no additional 
 tnlgii' instance 
 >OBod uhangeg ; 
 list the patience 
 
 the motion of 
 coin. I need 
 itroag feelings 
 proposed at 
 I might at an- 
 em, and In cer- 
 lance Minister- 
 as we must al- 
 I country here- 
 to consider a 
 And now, Sir. 
 i it ray duty to 
 ' my hon friend 
 lOtion proposes 
 , Sir, shall not 
 I into Commit- 
 1 be no consid- 
 of the OoTern- 
 ircmenta of the 
 lefioit of *950,- 
 it to meet the 
 1 will fall due 
 ims of the pro- 
 sire that there 
 ut the oharac- 
 lences of the 
 n dealing with 
 y $1,000,000 to 
 lusinesa of the 
 :raing liability 
 hich baa to be 
 position of the 
 3use shall give 
 imeuta ; and if 
 'feet declaring 
 hat way or in 
 a Government 
 er the financial 
 net. If adopt- 
 ion on the part 
 I afifairs of the 
 resent Govern- 
 the means 
 > the mainten- 
 troper oondnct 
 the motion to 
 iractice of this 
 
 •1^, 
 
 19 
 
 Hoaie it doea mean that, and noiuing less than 
 that. And, if it be cnrriert to-night, the Inevit- 
 able conspqueiice must be that the Ministry 
 must fall, and muet be succeeded by a new Min- 
 istfy before the House would give consideration 
 to the meana to be adopted to meet the require- 
 ments of the country. Now, much obje^on as I 
 have to this tariUf, In common, 1 believe, with a 
 large majority of the Houaa, yet I further believe, 
 in common with an equally Inrgo raa|cri»y, that 
 we might, by pieclpltatiiig a political crisis 
 upon the country at this moment, bring about 
 still greater and more enduring evils. [H»ar, 
 hear, ] We are on the ovo of establishing a new 
 empire on this continent— of forming a govern- 
 ment for theae Provinces, which we trust will be 
 stable and prosperous; and I do not hesitate to 
 say that whatever the opinion I may entertain 
 of the propoaitiona of my hon. friend, I have 
 confidence on the question of Confederation, in 
 the hon. genilemen who conduct the Oovernment 
 of this country. [Cheers and opposition counter 
 cheers.] I am quite prepared for the ironical 
 cheers of the hon. gentlemen opposite, and I can 
 tell them that they make no more impression up- 
 on me than their approving cheers did a few mo- 
 ments ago. I Hear, hear.] Their commendation 
 and their condemnation arealike Indilferent. I 
 do not value the one any more than I dread the 
 other. This .motion is not to obtain modifications 
 in the tariff, but to b.ing about a political crisis. 
 [Hear, bear.] I shall endeavour to obtain auoh 
 modifloationa in Com littee aa, I think, the inte- 
 rests of the country require ; and while I do not 
 hesitate to condemn In it what I believe to be 
 wrong, I do not hesitate at the same time to say 
 that I will not be r.»sponsible for plunging the 
 country into a Ministerial crisia at this period. 
 [Cheers.] I would ask where we could find a 
 combination of men to carry out to completion 
 the scheme of Confederation if there ahould, in 
 conaequence of the paasage of this motion, be a 
 new Ministry ? Do you think you can find ano- 
 ther French Canadian like the Attorney-General 
 East, in whose handa the intereata of French 
 Oanadiana and Engliah-apeaking reaidenta of 
 Lower Canada would alike be aafe? Doyoa 
 think you could find another Upper Canadian 
 like my hon. friend from Kingaton towhom can 
 be safely committed the as yet unfulfilled detaila 
 of tbis acheme Can you bring together other 
 representatives of the great Upper Canada Libe- 
 ral party in whom tuey will have confidence? 
 When you are called upon to consider such 
 great constitutional changes as will come before 
 yon, I say that under no light circumstances 
 onght any man to take the reaponaibility of in- 
 volving the country in aaoh a contest as the de- 
 fsat ttf iho Ministry at this uue would caaae, 
 Then, Sir, viewing, as I do, the motion of my 
 hon. friend, that it will prevent any meaaare be- 
 
 j ing conaidercd to meet the requirements of the 
 I year, both the deficit and the tloating liabilities, 
 ! 1 certainly am not disposed to say that I will 
 j withhold from this government the means they 
 , require. The motion la not only a diaiinct mo- 
 j tionofwant of confidence, but it la also a dis- 
 tinct refusal to vote the artual requirementa of 
 the year. [Hear, hear.] I have slated exactly 
 what my views are In reference to it, and I shall 
 eoaeavor, when tbo resolutions upon the tarill' 
 come under conaideratloa, so to clrcumsoribo 
 the action of the Finance Ministor in dealing 
 with the various Interests affected by bis propo- 
 sitions as to limit, if possible, the amount of mo- 
 ney he is going to raise by them to the actnal re- 
 quirements of the year. [Hear, hear.] I think 
 it inopporcune now, S'- to enter into auy discus- 
 sion upon the pro'-jadd issue of legal tender 
 notes. I '!o not kuow whether the details of 
 that scheme which havt been published in the 
 newspapers are correct or not, but certainly I 
 think it premature to discuss a measure, the prin- 
 ciple of which we have not yet before us. 
 
 Hon Mr HOLTON : But you have been talking 
 about such measures for the last four hours. 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE ; My hon friend's feelings, 1 im- 
 agine, have overcome his judgments. His ap- 
 proving smiles a short time ago were particularly 
 embarrassing, but now he returns to his normal 
 rensorioujness and is himself amiin. I think I 
 have not alluded to that scheme at all until 
 within the last few minutes. As to the tariff, I 
 have stated my objections to it because it is be- 
 fore me; and, aa I have said, when we are call- 
 ed upon to consider it in committee, I shall en- 
 deavour to cu-cumscribe the area of the 
 changes it proposea to an extent that 
 will be sufficient, and no more than sufH- 
 cient, to meet the financial requirements of 
 the year; fori think that such moaifioations 
 may be made in the detaila of the acheme as will 
 meet the money requirementa of the country 
 without damaging the entire business. (Hear, 
 hear.) With regard to the banking scheme, we 
 all know there are five millions of indebtedness 
 to be met this year in some way, and if the mo- 
 tion of the hon member ror Lincoln were carried 
 at thismoment, I defy my hon friend opposite (Mr 
 Holton) to show that the effect would not be to 
 prevent the Government from conaidering how 
 that payment abould be met. 
 
 Hon Mr HOLTON: My hon friend knows that 
 if thia motion were carried to-night, the House 
 might to-morrow go into Committoe of Ways and 
 Means just aa it ia proposed to do. 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE : Where would the Ministers be 
 to-morrow. 
 
 Hon Mr HOLTON: That would be for them to 
 determine. (Laughter.) 
 
 Hon Mr ROSE : Eiactly so ; there would be a 
 political interregnum. That in precisely what 
 
20 
 
 ■y hon friend desiwi to effiict, but which be «hslt 
 m4 tt^e my »Hlit»noe to hrln^ about. I will oo- 
 <||«Mte witti him In any honeBi learor to limit 
 mm Mreaot tb« p>opoied llical ci< »««« and to 
 4m^ft1t >h* tarifl' That object, howerer, li le- 
 ouudnf/ "/> h*»»-wiai me It la the primary on» 
 
 pa«»««l It would preclude ut from conilderlng 
 tbeie resolulloti of the Miniiter of Finance. For 
 theie reatont 1 hare no doubt ai to the coutie T 
 ■ball tike on the amendment ; but while 1 ihatl 
 vote aiiBinit it I will hare, at ibe mme time, Hir, 
 ry itrong opinloni at to the course taken by 
 
 My hoD (mm know» that If tbli motion were | the Oovernmenl at the preaent tlm«. (Oheerii). 
 
 i 
 
 16 
 
• 
 
 
 s 
 
 - 
 
 "*** - 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ■( 
 
 ;|J^ 
 
 '«*S.| 
 
 . 
 
 
 
 
 
 ■ ^y^ii 
 
 ^^^^l|. 
 
 
 Hk 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 ^^^^^^^H 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 1 
 
 Ik