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SPEECHES 
 
 ON THE 
 
 iCANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY 
 
 AND ON THE 
 
 Financial & Industrial Position of Canada 
 
 I DELIVERED IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS ON THE EVENINGS OF THE 
 ' Siai FEBRUARY AND THE 4tii MARCH, 1884, RESPECTIVELY, 
 
 BY 
 
 I -,v 
 
 MR. THOS. WHITE, M. P. 
 
 FOR CARDWELL, 
 
 ::il 
 
 GAZETTE PRINTING COMPANY. 
 
 1884. 
 
c 
 
 n 
 1 
 
CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY. 
 
 
 DEBATE ON THE GOVERNMENT RESOLUTIONS. 
 
 The following is a report of the speech of 
 Mr. Thos. White, M.P. for Cardw^U, deliv- 
 ered in the House of Commons on Friday 
 night, the 8th February, 1884, in reply to Sir 
 liicliard Cartw right : — 
 
 Mr. White (Cardwcll), who was loudly 
 cheered on rising, said : — I am quiti^ sure 
 those of us who have been iu the habit of lis- 
 tening to the hon. gentleman when he was in 
 parliament before, and who have contrasted 
 the speech he has delivered to-night with the 
 speeches he then delivered, must have 
 come to the conclusion that ha 
 was arguing against his own convic- 
 tions, from the time ho rose until th« 
 moment he sat down. W« all expected, in 
 feet it was announced to us by the leader of 
 the opposition in the closing sentences of his 
 speech, that the *inaneial aspects of this ques- 
 tion were to be dealt with by some one ; and 
 as the hon. gentleman who has just taken his 
 Beat has been brought irto Parliament again, 
 by the confession of the present leader and 
 the ex-leader of the party, in order to deal 
 with financial questions, we had a right to as- 
 sume that ho was the person who would so 
 deal with this particular subject. Sir, those 
 who have listened to him to-night will agree 
 with me, I think, in saying that he was cer- 
 tainly not doing himself justice in the man- 
 ner in which he has treated this question. 
 From the opening sentence to the close of his 
 speech, we have had haphazard statcmeuts — 
 statements which wore evidently not the re- 
 sult of reflection ; and, for one, I have come 
 to the conclusion that the hon. gentleman, 
 against his own convictions, balieving that 
 the scheme which is now before parliament 
 is, in the position in which we stand, the 
 best scheme that could be adopted for the 
 completion of this railway and for the in- 
 terest of this country, was forced to imple- 
 ment the promise made by his leader, and 
 to deal without preparation with the sub- 
 
 ject to which he has just addressed himself. 
 (Hear, hear, ) Sir, what hav« we heard from 
 that hon. gentleman ? With the single ex- 
 ception of his reference to the construction 
 company and the great profits that company 
 would have enjoyed, had thoy gone on with 
 the work, which they d'' lot do, we have 
 had scarcely a reference co the Canadian 
 Pacific Eaiiway at all. Wo have had refer- 
 ences to other subjc'ts. Wo have had refer- 
 ences to the conduct and character and career 
 of the conservative party. The hon. gentle- 
 man has gone back to the history of old 
 Canada. For the benefit of the hon, mem- 
 bers from the maritime provinces, he has 
 gone back to 1852, in order to establish that 
 from that date downward the career of the 
 con.'^crvative party, its policy in the adminis- 
 tration of the afi'airs of *his country, was a po- 
 licy to tlic detriment of the cou'.try and tend- 
 ing to extravagance in the expenditures of the 
 country. And yet, Mr. iSpcaker, what will 
 our friends from the maritime provinces say 
 when I tell tluni that during the whole of 
 those years that hon. gentleman was a hum- 
 ble follower of the conservative party. 
 
 Sir PucuARD Caktwright — I would just say 
 that it is not true. 
 
 Mr. White — Not only a follower, but a tra- 
 ditional tory of the old school — one of those 
 old blue-blooded tories — one of the men who 
 had nothing but contempt for those common- 
 place people who are usually called radi- 
 cals — that this hon. gentleman from the day 
 he entered parliament, and for many years 
 before — until the leader of the government 
 rommitted the heinous offence of believing 
 that another hon. gentleman would make a 
 better finance minister than himself — until 
 that day that hon. gentleman supported the 
 party whose policy, he says, from 1852 on- 
 wards, was a polic}' tending to the injury of 
 this country, and to reckless and extravagant 
 expenditure. (Cheers.) 
 some reference to 
 
 Sir, we had also. 
 
2 
 
 TUK GRAND TRUHK RAILWAY. 
 
 The hou, gentleman alluded to the early his- 
 tory of the Grand Trunk Railway, and he 
 held un the fact that we have not yet got back 
 the guarantee which was given to that com- 
 pany, as a proof that it is utterl}' impossible 
 that we can g«t back this guarantee. Does 
 tho hon. gentleman know anything of the 
 history of the Grand Trunk Railway ? Does 
 he know anything of the circumstances under 
 which that guarantee was given ? Will he 
 pretend to tell this house that there is any 
 Bimilarity whatevi^r between tho guarantee 
 given to the Grand Trunk Railway and tlio 
 adva-jcc now proposed to be made to the Ca- 
 nadian Pacific Railway ? Sir, in 1852, tho 
 Grand Trunk Railway Company got its char- 
 ter. At that time, as everyone knows, we were 
 in the midst of a fever for railway construc- 
 tion. The then loader of the conservative 
 party, the hon. gentleman's loader at that 
 time, declared that bis policy was railways, 
 Hitting, as he did at that time, us leader of the 
 opposition. The government issued, through 
 Lord Elgin — and I presume the government 
 were to some extent responsible for the utter- 
 ances of Lord Elgin, even in the despatches 
 he sent to the home govorumsnt — issued a 
 paper setting forth the great prospects of this 
 countrj'. A prospectus was issued bearing, 
 if not the direct, certainly the indirect en- 
 dorsement of the government of this country, 
 promising t» those people in England who 
 should put their money into the Grand 
 Trunk Railway a dividend uf 11 per cent, at 
 ieast. The government guaranteed £3,000 
 a mile for the railway, and took a first lien 
 upon it as swcurity. But we all know tliat 
 when the road came to be built, when the 
 results came to be asccTtaincd, it was found 
 that instead uf its paying the II percent, 
 then promised, there was no percentage at 
 all for the people who had embarked their 
 money in the enterprise ; and when the ques- 
 tion camo before the people and the govein- 
 lar^nt of Canada, as to what was to be done 
 with regard to that guarantee, it presented it- 
 self in tins form ; Hero were men in Eng- 
 land who, on the strength of a prospectus 
 jtractically endorsed by the Dominion of 
 Canada — backed, as it was, by the Governor- 
 General, by Ilor Majesty's representative in 
 tliis country — put their money into that work, 
 without any interest whatever, except tho in- 
 terest which they expected to get in the form 
 of a dividend from the working of the rail- 
 May. There was Canada, with a railway 
 built with English money and benefiting 
 
 the province by the rapid devcloi)ment 
 of every interest in the country 
 which followed immediately after its con- 
 struction ; and the question which presf.nted 
 itself to us, as honest men, was this — ought 
 wo to exact the ponnd of fleph ? Ougiit we, 
 who had derived, and were deriving all the 
 direct and indirect advantages resulting 
 from the expenditure of that money in our 
 midst — from the expenditure of the money 
 itself, and the development of tho country 
 through that expenditure — ought we to ex- 
 act our interest before the people in England 
 got a dollar? (Hear, hear.) And the peo- 
 ple of Canada did what I am satisfied, if the 
 conditions existed, they would do again — 
 what I believe, as honest men, it was their 
 boundon duty to do — they took tho ground 
 that they would wait at any rate 
 until tin company were able to 
 pay dividend* to their shareholders before 
 thtty would exact their claim from the 
 company (Cheers.) It is true that amount 
 fctands to-day among the public assets of this 
 country ; and I am not certain that, with the 
 magnificent dcvelopm'jnt of that railway — as 
 a Canadian, I sincerely hope that that devel- 
 opment will go on — the time may come when 
 that company will pay dividends to its share- 
 holders, and when the claim of tho people ol 
 Canada, under the circumstances, will revive. 
 But what comparison is there between our 
 position with rtfercncc to that matter 
 and the relation in which we stand 
 to this advance ? "Why, sir, what is it which 
 is proposed at this moment ? It is this : We 
 have a railway, a large proportion of whieh is 
 built ; its net earnings amo'int to nearly $1,- 
 000,000 a year ; v/c liave already given large 
 subiicrip4ions to it ; wc are under no obliga- 
 tion to anybody connected with it, or either 
 directly or indirectly to treat that company 
 otherwi.sc than the terms of their contract re- 
 quire, and when we place this money at their 
 disposal, taking security for its return, I say • 
 we do it without laving ourselves open to the 
 danger that the people of Canada will not be 
 repaid. But we have given to other roads 
 as well as to the Grand Trunk. Th« hon. \. 
 gsntleman knows that the Great Western got ', 
 an advance at the same time, and ho knows , 
 that a great portion of that advance has been ^ 
 repaid. 
 
 Mr. Mackenzie — That has all been repaid. V 
 
 Mr. White. — I do not know whether it has ^ 
 all been repaid, but a great part of it has 
 been. It was the subjecl of correspondence 
 
 f- 
 
f 
 
 between Sir John Rose when ho was finance 
 minister acting for the government of Canada 
 and the Great Western Railway Company, 
 «nd a large portion was certainly repaid. 
 The Northern Railway Company also received 
 an ad ranee and wo got back the money or a 
 large part of it— why ? Because both of these 
 railways were paying interest — were success- 
 ful railways — and wo were therefore in a posi- 
 tion to enforce our claim. 
 
 THB POSITION OP THB QtrE3TI0>f. 
 
 But in this particular case we stand in the 
 position of advancing money to an organized 
 company with a large mileage of railway 
 already completed, and the only question 
 which arises if» this, is the security upon 
 which we advance it sufficient te guard 
 us against the possibility of loss in the future? 
 That is the only question before us at this 
 moment. I do not propose, sir. to deal with 
 the question whether it is or is not desirable 
 that this road should be speedily constructed. 
 We know that the people of Canada have 
 committed themselves to the construction of 
 this railway. We gave out this contract in 
 1881. We have had a general election since 
 that time. I do not know how it was in 
 other coastituencies, but I know that in mine 
 I had the pleasure and the honour — and I 
 esteemed it an honour, and it certainl]' was a 
 pleasure — of a visit from from my hon. friend, 
 the member for East York (Mr. Mackenzie), ac- 
 companied by the Premier of the Province of 
 Ontario. We discussed for a whole after- 
 noon the public affairs of this country j wo 
 had the boundary question, the streams bill, 
 the gerrymandering act ; we had from the 
 hon. member for East York some remarks 
 with reference to the administration of rail- 
 ways by the hon. Minister of Railways, and 
 with ref'^rence to some matters of detail con- 
 nected with tho public expenditure ; but I 
 think I am within his knowledge when I say 
 that from the beginning to the close — I was 
 not there at the opening, bat a gentleman 
 who was there told me what took place — 
 this question of the Canadian Pacilic Rail- 
 way, which was to have been the question 
 that would hurl tho oonservative party from 
 power as soon as the people should have the 
 opportunity of dealing witli it, was not once 
 relen-ed to. (Cheers.) I did not hear many 
 opposition speeches, I admit, because, with 
 tho exception of that meeting, my political 
 opponents tor some reasons happened not to 
 be at the meetings I held in the constituency. 
 But what I have to say is ihiii, that, so fur as 
 
 I can know, that question had practically 
 passed out of the arena of discussion alto- 
 gether, and the people of Canada wuro thor- 
 ongly satisfied that tho best thing had been 
 done that could be done in the contract whi "U 
 had been let for the construction of the rail- 
 way. 
 
 IMPORTANCE OF EARLY COMPLETION. 
 
 Under these circumstance — the people 
 of Canada having determined that 
 the railway should bo built — do 
 hon. gentlemen opposite think that 
 they aro going to have tho people with them 
 in saying tnat it is a matter of indifference 
 when it is built, and in saying that it is a 
 matter of no consequence, now that a very 
 largo portion of tho railway has been con- 
 structed, whether the links between them are 
 left uncompleted or not. (Hear, hear.) I 
 venture to say that there is no man in Can- 
 ada who looks fairly at tho future interests of 
 this country, who desires tho development of 
 every interest in this country, who will not 
 say that it is a matter of the very greatest 
 consequence, now that tho railway has ad- 
 vanced to its present stage, that it shall be 
 completed at the earliest possible moment. 
 Remember that when this contract was made 
 it was a ten years' contract. I am not going 
 to say that if the company had gone on — as 
 possibly that second syndicate pright have gone 
 on,hatl they been awarded tho contract — slow- 
 ly, carefully, tentatively, just spending tho dol- 
 lars as they happened to get them, waiting 
 for the whole ten y«ars to build the road, 
 everybody might not, to some extent, have 
 been satisfied ; because no one believed, be- 
 fore this time, that a railway of this kind 
 could be built in five years. But we 
 have learnt differently <iuring the last 
 two years, and to stoD the construe- 
 tiou of the railway to-day, to even les- 
 sen the speed at which it is being con- 
 constructed, would be an admission of failure, 
 and fivilurc to tho Canadian Pacific Railway 
 cannot take place without resulting in dis- 
 aster to tho people ot Canada. (Cheers.) I 
 do not say that tho government or the people 
 of Canada should feel themselves bound up in 
 tho interests of the gentlemen who compose 
 the company or the directorate of 
 the Cau.idian Pacific Railway; but 
 I do say, that we are so situated in 
 Canada, tliat the construction of this railway 
 has been so identified in tho public mind, not 
 only hero but in Europe, especially in Great 
 Britain, with the prosperity and progress of 
 
; t 
 
 the Domiuion, that the stoppage of Iho lino 
 must mean disaster to the country itself. The 
 hon. gentlemen told us that we on this side 
 ot the house had complained of the conduct of 
 the hon. member for East York, when he was 
 at the head of the government, in building the 
 lino from Port Arthur to Winnipeg. That 
 was not the complaint. What avo did com- 
 plain of — wliat was comjilained of everywhere 
 — was that the hon. gentleman built the two 
 ends and left the centre section untouched — 
 not that he built, but that he did not build 
 the railway. (Hear, hear.) That was the 
 cause oi our complaint ; and what we com- 
 plained of in him then, we feel that the public 
 would be entitled to complain ot in us 
 now, if, after having gone so far 
 with the construction of this rail- 
 way, we were to stop the work or lessen 
 its speed, or to refuse, with reasonable guaran- 
 tee for its repayment, such an advance as 
 will ensure the desired speedy construction. 
 
 CHAttlCTSR OF THE iUILWAT. 
 
 Then we were told by the lion, gentleman, 
 contrary T think to what everybody has 
 thought heretofore, that the railway is not 
 such a railway as we ought fairly to expect, and 
 we have had a reference made to the gradients 
 in the Rocky Mountains which, he says, are 
 somewhere about 11 G feet to the mile. That 
 seems a very heavy gradient I admit. I be- 
 lieve it extends from the summit to the 
 Columbia river, somcwiere about ten miles 
 in length , but it is not as high a gradient as 
 is to be found on the American Pacific Rail- 
 ways, nor as high as that which you will lind 
 on a railway which is to-day almost a con- 
 trolling line in eastern and western transport 
 — the Baltimore and Ohio road. On that rail- 
 way there is a gradient much higher that this 
 116 feet. But I think that everyone will 
 admit, who has been through this country — 
 that is at least the testimony of everyone I 
 have heard speak of it — that the railway has 
 been substantially built, that the company 
 have built it in a manner indicating their in- 
 Uon to work it, and indicating their interest 
 in its economical working after it is built. 
 (Cheers.) In that respect, at any rate, the 
 people of this country liave no reason what- 
 ever to complain. 
 
 QCAKANTEES FOR COMPLITION. "• 
 
 Then we are told by the hon. gentleman — 
 and that, I admit, is a point upon which we 
 require to have the mo.st comnletc assurance 
 
 and guarantee — of Ui;.' diliii;ullv of determin- 
 ing the timo in which the railway may be 
 completed through those difficult sections. 
 Ho pointed out, very properly, that on the 
 prairie section it is not <liffi,;uit to determine 
 how the railway might bo built, and in what 
 timo it might be built, wi*h the experience 
 we have to-day ; but that those sections which 
 arc now to be constructed are the difficult fiec- 
 tions and that therefore it required close cal- 
 culation to determine whether we could buildt 
 Ihera within the time mentioned or not. I 
 sincerely trust — I do not know what the in- 
 tentions of the government in the matter are — 
 but I sincerely trust thai, when this bargain 
 is implomonted, that when this agreemunt i? 
 made, we will have in it some guaraiiteo that 
 the railway is to be completed in tha shorter 
 timo proposed ; and further, that provision 
 will be mado, by special supervision on the 
 part of the officers of the government itself, 
 to see that the road is being constructed and 
 the money being expended in such a way as 
 will secure its construction within the stipu- 
 lated time. (Hear, hear.) i 
 
 Sir CuARLEs TUPPER — If the hon. gentle- 
 man will allow me to interrupt him, 1 will 
 say that it is never possible to embrace with- 
 in resolutions of this kind everything con- 
 nected with them, but it is the intention ol 
 the government, as is indicated therein, to 
 provide by the bill which will authonze the 
 agreement for the most adequate security for 
 the completion of the road within the time 
 stated by me to the houso, am' also to pro- 
 vide that not a single dollar of the money ad- 
 vanced by the government to the contractor* 
 for the work shall be advanced except upon 
 the evidence that such money has gone into 
 the road. (Cheers.) 
 
 Mr. White — I am quite sure that the assur- 
 ance of the hon. minister of railways on these 
 two points will be exceedingly satisfactory 
 not only to this house but to the country, be- 
 cause the only reason, as I can understiind it^ 
 for undertaking this new obligation — and ob- 
 ligation it undoubtedly is — is the importance 
 of having the • railway completed within th» 
 shorter time specified in the letter of the pre- 
 sident of the railway company and affirmed in 
 the statement of the hon. minister. 
 
 THB C0N3TRCCT10N COMPANT CONTBACT- 
 
 ^« >.-T-;-^>-V.'-.-r--;— 
 
 '\ 
 
 The lion, gentleman has referred to this con- 
 struction company as affording positive proof 
 either that the company gave a great deal too 
 much to the construction company or that th& 
 
amouut now eatiraalod for tlj<' completion of 
 the railway is an amount altogether inade- 
 quate. Wo liave not, at this moment, I quite 
 agree witli tho hon. gentleman, all the papers 
 we would like to have for adiscnsnion of a suh- 
 ject of this kind ; but J do not regard that, as 
 I shall show you presently, as a matter of so 
 great consequence as the h ,n. gentleman does. 
 But, sir, I believe tho fact to be that the con- 
 tract with this construction company was 
 entered into on tho 12th December, 1882, 
 that is, about fourteen months ago. Slow, 
 sir, at that time, it is well known that the 
 company were desirous of floating their capi- 
 tal, of floating their scheme ; that it was, 
 therefore, a matter of consequence that they 
 should liave a contract made, so that the 
 public who would invest their money in this 
 enterprise would know reasonably what the 
 enterprise was going to cost. There has 
 been since that time nearly COO miles of rail- 
 way built. There have been very consider- 
 able surveys made ; there have been re-mea- 
 surements, and there is very much better evi- 
 dence and information now than could possi- 
 bly have existed at that time. We know 
 that, so far as this construction company is 
 conctfrned, they were to have taken a certain 
 portion in cash and a certain portion in stock ; 
 but, as I believe to be the fact, so far as their 
 work went, the expenditures which they 
 made were simply made for them l-y the com- 
 pany, and when they were unable to float the 
 stock which it was their business to float, the 
 contract was abrogated, I think in the month 
 of October last, before there was any question 
 whatever of applying to parliament for an 
 advance such as is applied for to-day. (Hear, 
 hear. ^ 
 
 Mr. Bla-KE — About the end of November. 
 
 Mr. White — I am told the deed was signed 
 in November. But, whether it be the one 
 month or tho other, what I say to the hon. 
 gentlemen is this, that it was before any 
 question of this kind could have arisen. It 
 was just at the time that the company ex- 
 pected that ihe arrangements which they had 
 made with the government for the guarantee 
 of 3 per cent, for ten years, would have 
 carried them through, and that they would 
 have been able to ccmplete the contract by 
 the sale of the stock on the open market. 
 (Hear, hear. ) Tliat was the position at the 
 time they abrogated the contract. Now that 
 contract is abrogated. It is not a contract 
 to-day, and imder the circumstances, I do not 
 think it is a matter of so great consequence 
 
 that we should h«ve all the det/iiln of a con- 
 tract wl.iich existed for only u few months 
 comparatively — for loss than a year — under 
 which, as I understand it, money was i>aid 
 only for work actually done, whi.h was 
 abrogated on account of the fai'are of the con- 
 tractors to implement their contract by selling 
 the shares, and which is therefore a matter 
 which, in so far as this particular arrange- 
 ment is concerned, is of uo value or effect 
 whatever. (Cheers.) 
 
 PUOSPECTS OF EARLY COMPLETION. 
 
 What we know is this, that we have the 
 statement of the chief engineer ot the depart- 
 ment of railways as to what tte cost will be 
 of the c«ffnpletion of this railway. What we 
 know further is this, that tho money which 
 is to be paid for it, the money 
 which we are voting, is to be 
 l>aid pro rata as the work proceeds, 
 having regard to the amount required for the 
 absolute completion of the road ; and that, 
 therefore, we have in these arrangements, — 
 first, in the report of the chief engineer, 
 which confirms the reports of the engineers of 
 the company itself, and next, in tho fact that 
 the money is only to be paid out as the work 
 proceeds — a sufficient guarantee that at any 
 rate the money will complete the railway as 
 is proposed. But wc have further than that. 
 I believe that the difficulties which the com- 
 pany have had up to this time in selling their 
 stosk upon the open market have been due 
 very largely to the determiuat'on on the part 
 of rival companies to prevent the completion 
 of this railway. The moment you prove to 
 these rival companies, and to all interested 
 in these rival companies, that this railway is 
 going to be built, the moment you prove to 
 them that the company have been able to 
 make arrangements by which they are practi- 
 cally independent ot the stock market alto- 
 gether in the completion of the railway, that 
 motive at least is gone for the depreciation of 
 the stock, and, that being the case, the in- 
 vesting public will have the opportunity 
 quietly, without influences of that kind sur- 
 rounding them, of investigating the character 
 of this enterprise, its commercial value, the 
 probability of its paying dividends upon the 
 stock it has issued, how it stands in relation to 
 other transcontinental railways of this con- 
 tinent ; and I believe that, before the two 
 years are up within which this road is to be 
 built, the stock will be at such a rate that it 
 will be a question for the government 
 whether they will allow the $35,000,000 to 
 
 i 
 

 
 
 bo sold on condition of tlic $22,500,000 bcinp 
 repilid to the government. (CliccrH.) But, 
 independent of that, tlie assurance wc have 
 from the chief engineer of the company, and 
 the assurance wo liave Lad to-nigiit from the 
 hon. minister, that there is to bo proper 
 supervision in the expenditure of this money, 
 in Huoh a way that it bhall only bo spent 
 having regard to the completion of the rail- 
 way within the amouat voted, affords to us 
 the molt perfect guarantee that can bo afforded 
 in any business transaction, that the railway 
 will be completed within that time, and for 
 no further sura of money than is hero pro- 
 posed to bo voted. (Cheers.) 
 
 THK QUKSTION OF THK GUARANTEE. 
 
 Now, sir, the question, and really the on'y 
 important question is, what guarantee have 
 we that this money will bo repaid? Aro wo 
 simply launching out $22,500,000 or$30,- 
 000,000 — if the hon. gentlemen choose to as- 
 sume that the second instalment of the 
 purchase money of the annuities will not bo 
 paid— are wc simply spending that $30,000,- 
 000 without any prospect whatever of getting 
 it back ? bir, w« have, first, the lands of 
 th« company, Now, I think, in view of 
 what hon. gentlemen opposite have said as 
 to thj value of these lands, in view 
 of tho extravagant statements they 
 have made as to the enormous subsidies which 
 have been given to this company, based upon 
 an estimate all the way up to $5 and $7 an 
 acre, we may fairly assume that tho average 
 price received up to this time will be realized 
 in the future for these lands. Wo find that 
 tho Northern Pacific Railway, which runs 
 through a territory very much like that of our 
 own Northwest, inferior to it as it seems to 
 me — because they have to take the land irre- 
 respective of whether it is fit for settlement 
 or otherwise— during the last year sold up- 
 wards of 750,000 acres of land at an average 
 price of $4 an acre, not counting their town 
 lots at all, for which they received eomething 
 like $332,000. Wc havo the evidence of our 
 own Canadian Pacific Railway Company 
 which has sold up '„o this time its land at 
 $2.30 an acre. They havo sold up to this 
 time land to the value of nearly $9,009,000. 
 If we receive but $1,250,000 a year from the 
 sale of land — and remember that every dollar 
 received from tho sale of lands goes iito the 
 hands of trustees for the repayment of tho 
 interest and principal of the loan we are now 
 advancing — we havo the interest upon this 
 !J)2 2,500, 000 paid to us, and the loan is not a 
 
 charge upon the people of this country at all. 
 (Hoar, hear.) VVo aro j mctioally buying 
 back, if the worst came to tho wornt, 
 about 21,000,000 of acrea of tho 
 lands in the Northwest, which hon. gontlc- 
 men, in CRtimatirig tho subsidies given to tho 
 company, hava toid us aro worth $5 an aero, 
 and giving .$22,500,000 for thera. (ChecrK) 
 That is practically the first security wo havo. 
 You will remember, sir, that when this con- 
 tract was lot, ono of tho charges made against 
 tho government, one of the complaints mado 
 with regard to tho contract was this : When 
 it was compared with the arrangements pro- 
 posed by the hon. member tor East York 
 (Mr. Mackenzie) while at the head of tho 
 government, for the construction of this rail- 
 way by a company, that gentleman' s answer 
 was ; it is quite true — wo oft'cred largo subsi- 
 die«, but wo made a provision in tho act by 
 which wo could buy back tho railway after it 
 was built, at 10 per cent, over and above the 
 cash that had been paid for it, 1 3ss tho subsi- 
 dies i. land or money which had boon, given 
 to it by the government. Now, sir, 
 suppose tho worst camo to tho worst, 
 what woi'ld bo our position in this? 
 Wo would practically be carrying 
 out tho very policy which hon. gentle- 
 men opposite embodied in the act of parlia- 
 ment of 1874 — wo would bo buying back tho 
 railway at very mach less than thcr money 
 put irto it, deducting th j subsidies received 
 from the government, whether in land or 
 money. (Cheers.) Because, Mr. Speaker, 
 until this money is paid back, until the coun- 
 try stands in tho position in which it stands 
 to-day, before wo have voted this grant — 
 until that is the case, not ono single dollar 
 can go from the sale of these lands into tho 
 pockets of the compaiiy. It goes altogether 
 into tho treasury of the Dominion. Under 
 these circumstances, therefore, I think the 
 land must be regarded as a valid security, 
 removing the arrangement altogether from 
 the class of arrangomonts which we havo 
 made in tho past. Then, sir, wo have, in 
 addition to that, tho $35,000,000 of stock 
 When the hon. gentleman was dealing with 
 tho contracing company he ciioso to assume 
 that stock at 60 cents on the dollar. If that 
 is a fair estimate wo havo in that stock 
 enough to repay us for tho advance of this 
 $22,500,000. And then, sir, wo have, in 
 addition, to all that, a mortgage upon all the 
 property of tho company in addition to the 
 property which wo ourselves havo contract- 
 ed with them to build — because it should 
 
 1 
 
iSI 
 
 m 
 
 never 1)0 forj»ott«Mi that the rontract hctwccn 
 (ho t'luuuliun I'.acilic Iiiiihvuy (Jotnpiuiy iiiul 
 iho people ol CiiuiKla is far the conrttruction 
 (if a railway west of Ciillandcr to 
 the rncillo Ocean. Kvery thing the/ do caHt 
 (if that is (lone simply as au ordinary 
 lmsinei5s corporation, an<l parliami;:it. ha«, in 
 fact, little or holhing to do with it. Wo have 
 contracted with them to build west of Callan- 
 der, bnt we will luivo a mortgage, nol only upon 
 what wc contracted witii them to build west 
 of Callander, but upon everything else which 
 they have obtained, inwludiiig their oustern 
 extensioDH down to Montreal and IJrockville, 
 with their branches and everything connected 
 with the railway. (Cheers.) That I thiak 
 wouid bo looked upon b\ an ordinary loan 
 company as a tolerably good security for $22,- 
 500,000 — anything bettor it would bo difTicult 
 to imagine. (Cheer.t.) Wc arc, therefore, 
 simply advancing that money, and holding in 
 our hands the assets which, from year to year, 
 as they arc realized in the sales of lands, must 
 pay us interest upon them, and of which, \d- 
 timatcly, the securities that we take arc cer- 
 tain to secure the absolute pavment. Under 
 these circumstances, Mr. Speaker, are we in 
 a position to enter into this bargain ? The 
 Jion. ^'entlemaa who last addressed the house 
 referred to 
 
 THE FINANCIAL TOSITION OP CANADA. 
 
 He referred to the difli cutties, to the dangers, 
 as he said, in which we stood of running too 
 much into debt. He told us the 
 old story of h jw rapidly the debt 
 of Canada had iicreased from 1867 to 187.3. 
 He told us of the terrible extra vagoticea which 
 had characterized that increased expenditure. 
 He did not, of cour.se, qnotc to us the famous 
 circular issued in England, in which he point- 
 ed out to investors in that country that all 
 those expenditures inured to the advantage of 
 the country, and were all practically money- 
 producing investments, directly or indirectly. 
 (Cheers.) But he told us of the position in 
 which wc stood, and he referred to the fact 
 that the hon. the Finance Minister would be 
 compelled, within the next year or two, to 
 raise by loan something about $50,000,000 in 
 the English market. Well, sir, what is that 
 $50,000,000 to be raised for ? We know that 
 this year, by the estimates that have been laid 
 on the table, in spite of all the largo expen- 
 ditures which have boon made, in spite of this 
 enonnous increase of the debt — which I find 
 has even been telegraphed to England and 
 published in the Standard^ to warn people 
 
 there from having anything to dq with Cana- 
 dian investment.!— — 
 
 Sir Leoxauo Tilly — That was a falea Htate- 
 mont too. 
 
 Mr. WiiiTK — Of course, there arc no Btatc- 
 racnts telegraphed to England but false state- 
 ments from the Ami3ricau press just now, 
 and throu}.'h the ordinary channels of com- 
 munication. (Hear, hear.) As I was 
 saying, wc find that in spite of all this in- 
 crease of expenditure from year to year tho 
 estimates show a reduction in tho charge for 
 interest upon tho people of Canada in connoc. 
 tion .vith their debt of nearly $250,000 
 (Cheers.) That is tho position wo will stand 
 in the noxt year, as compared with the current 
 year. Then what are wo to do ? What is 
 this money to bo obtained for ? It is trae, tho 
 hon. Finance Minister has to go to England, 
 but he goes tliero to redeem $33,500,000 of 
 the debt of Canada which bears to-day 5 per 
 cent. Ho will bo able to make an arrange- 
 ment by which it will be no additional oh*go 
 upon the country. Tt, is simply an exchange 
 of 4 per cents, for 5 per cents., and if he suc- 
 ceeds in doing it ho will further reduce tho 
 annual charge upon the people of this country 
 by $434,470 by that transaction. (Cheers.) 
 Is that a thing to bo alarmed at ? Is that 
 an evideuce that this country is overburden- 
 ing itself, is increasing its debt m such a way 
 as seriously t-^ imperil is future? On tho 
 trary, Mr. Speaker, a. egards $33,000,000 
 of that $50,000,000, to obtain which tho 
 hon. Finance Minister will have to go to Eng- 
 land, Jt will not be an increase of our debt 
 — measuring our debt by the annual charge 
 upon the people, which is the true and proper 
 way to measure it ; it is actually a transac- 
 tion by which wo are to reduce, by over 
 $400,000, the charges of that debt upon tho 
 people of this country. And, as to this $22,- 
 500,000 — the balance of this money — that is 
 a sum for which we are actually to receive 5 
 per cent. I attach no importance to Ih-i fact 
 that we may be able to borrow money at 4 
 per cent, and loan it at 5 per cent. Thp,t 
 may be au incident of this bargain. But what 
 I do attach importance to is that this advance 
 of $22,500,000; that this $.^3, 000, 000 which 
 has to bo borrowed on the English market; 
 that this addition to our debt of $50,000,000 
 which wc arc asked to contemplate with hor- 
 ror by hon. gentlemen opposite, is an ad- 
 dition to our public debt which, so far from 
 increjvsing our annual burdens, will reduce 
 them by about $500,000. (Cheers.) That 
 
8 
 
 I 
 
 
 is tue position in which we stand financially, 
 and 1 challenge the hon. gentleman to find a 
 flaw in any single statement in concection 
 with it. He may mij : What evidence have 
 you that you wj-l get your 5 per cent, on the 
 $22,500,000 ? Sir,we have tb*? evidence of 21,- 
 000,000 acres of land to be sold to settlers 
 who m.".y go into the country, the money 
 coming into the treasury of the Dominion, to 
 be applied io the interest upon this money. 
 So that, sir, there is nothing, as it seems to 
 me, in the financial position of the country to 
 cause us any alarm ; but, on the con- 
 trary, I think we may congratulate ourselves, 
 and I think the hon. the finance minister 
 may congratulate himself, upon the prospect 
 that when he goes to the elections of 1887, 
 with this railway completed and run- 
 ning through the Dominion to the Pacific, so 
 that people who take the tram at Halifax may 
 go to Port Moody over Canadian territwy 
 without changing cars — when he will be able 
 io show that accomplished, while the annual 
 charge for interest upon the public debt is 
 leps than it was in tlie elections of 1882 — I 
 say I think he mav fairly look forward to a 
 position stronger than that which any ^ iblic 
 man has ever occupied before the j .e of 
 this country. (Loud cheers.) Sir, that will 
 torm a striking contrast tc the position wuich 
 the hon. gentleman occupied when he left 
 office in 1878. (Hear, hear.) He talks of 
 increasing the public debt. Does he remem- 
 ber that during the Tive years he controlled the 
 finances of this country the public debt in- 
 creased about $40,000,000 ? Does he re- 
 member tliat every charge connected with 
 public debt increased enormously 'vhile he 
 was finance min:s*,er ? Does he remember 
 that the people of this country were com- 
 pelled to do without expenditures for those 
 useful objects which a new and growing coim- 
 try like this always requires, because of the 
 manner in which the finances were adminis- 
 tered, and in which a policy was carried oat 
 of annual ileficito instead of annual surpluses, 
 as we have had since that time ? (Cheers.) 
 The hon. gentleman teils us that in this coun- 
 try sometimes we have a great revenue and 
 sometimes a small t avenue. That is true I 
 think we had, for a while, a too great re «'e- 
 nuc. I do not hesitate for a momont to say 
 so, and I have not hesitated to make that as- 
 sertion. I was n,mong the first to warn the 
 merchants of Canada, as a journalist, against 
 the danger of ovcr-importiiig, and ilio possi- 
 bility of that great booin in the Northwest 
 collapsing, as unfortunately it did collapse — 
 
 but, I hope, only *ov a short time. But I 
 thinl< we may fairly say, with the prospect 
 which the completion of this railway holds 
 out to us — with the prospect of the settlement 
 which is certain to take place in the North- 
 west, we may fairly look forward, under our 
 present tariff, even with a continuance of 
 those reductions -vhich the hon. Finance 
 Min'Kter has been able to make almost ever 
 since the tariff was introduced in 1879, ta 
 having such resources as will enable us to 
 carry on those reasonable works of public im- 
 provements in every part of the country, 
 which it must be the interest of the pcoplt 
 of Canada at large to have. (Cheere. ) 
 
 OUTSIDE ENTERPKI3E3 OP THE C. P. R, 
 
 One of the objections, and it seems to ma 
 the objection of which I hare hoard mcst ta 
 this arrangement, has been that this company 
 has busied itself with othor enterprises ; that 
 it has overburdened itself by undertaking a 
 nimiber of other enterprises. I have no hesi- 
 tation in saying tnat, as regards the Ontario 
 and Quebec Railway and the Credit Valley 
 Railway, I think it would have b ^eu better off 
 if it had not touched them ; but I am not re- 
 sponsible for its having touched them, for, as 
 an ind.epende.it member ot parliament, 1 did 
 what I could last year to prevent the ar- 
 rangement under which those lines were 
 taken over. I cannot, however, over- 
 look tlie argument of the hon. mem- 
 ber for Richmond and Wolfe (Mr. Ives), 
 whidi is not an unreasonable one. 0" those 
 railways, the Credit Yalle/ was already built, 
 and the Ontario t Quebec was ad-rancing 
 towards completion. It was really not a 
 question as to wh'^ther there should be op- 
 position io the Grand Trunk or not. The 
 Canadian Pacific Railway Company, as I un- 
 derstand their arrangement, havt not put one 
 single dollar of capital into eiihfrof those 
 enterprises. The only enterprises into whicl* 
 they have put capital are those which proper- 
 ly belong to their great enterprise — that is 
 the enterptises which bring the tr.Tffic of the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway to ;he seabowd at 
 Montreal ana Quebec. They have leased the 
 other rai!way6 mentioned. They think they 
 are advantageous to them. They believe 
 tliis yea^- they will be able, by the Ontario 
 fi Quebec, and the Toronto, Grey & Bruce, 
 which they liavc ulso leased, to carry the 
 traffic and the immigrants to the Port of 
 Owen Sound, and make of that port, what it 
 has fiever been to the same ex.tent, a great 
 port . the transhipping of immigrants and 
 
"9 
 
 But I 
 
 |)ro8poct I freight between tlic great West and the east- 
 holds I cm provii:ce8. The company tliink tliat is 
 Itlement I advantageous, and they have gone into it. To 
 North- I my rniud, having regard to this particular 
 Ider our I scheme, it is a matter of no consequenc 
 (ance of | whether they acted wisely or unwisele 
 finance I in doing it. They have done it. 
 lost ever I The Parliament of Canada has sanc- 
 1879, ta I Vioned it. The people of Canada will get 
 le us to I the advantage of competition throi3gh a great 
 Iblio im- I corporation, not through a miserable, small 
 country, I struggling corporation, whose owaing 
 people I of a railway is, perhaps, one of the 
 1) I greatest curses which can befall the 
 
 I "' I country through which it passes, but by this 
 
 ' ■ great corporation they will be saved from the 
 
 monopoly which hon. gentlemen opposite 
 fear bo much in the Northwest ; and so far as 
 we are concerned, in connection with this 
 particular enterprise, it i. a matter which 
 does not effect it in the slightest degree. 
 
 TSFLUBSCB OF THE RAILWAY ON SFA' ''.EMENT. 
 
 Bat the hon. gentleman (Sir Richard Cart- 
 . ght) tells us that the construction of this 
 railway has done more harm than good to the 
 Northwest ; that the farmers of the Northxvest 
 would ha"v e been hotter off if the company 
 had bimply built the railway to Winnipeg 
 and there stopped, and we had allowed them, 
 with their own lands, to go on with the wcrk 
 and build the railway beyond that point. 
 Why, we have been giving lands to private 
 companies to build railways throughthat 
 country ; w-i have been affording opportuni- 
 ties to railway corjpanies by granting subsi- 
 dies of a valuable character to build railways 
 there, am' I am not incorrect when I say that 
 the expen ence, ec far as the rapid construc- 
 tion of the railways is concerned, and as re- 
 gards affording railway facilities to settlers, 
 has not been a very assuring one. (Cheers.) 
 It surely is little less than au insult to the 
 house and to the country thai any hon. gen- 
 tleman should rise and say he believes that 
 the farmers in that Northwest country, with 
 whatever grievances they may have to com- 
 plain of, would be better off if they had not 
 had a railway runn'.ng from Winnipeg to the 
 Rocky Mountains, aa they have to-day. It 
 has been a matter to them of the greatest 
 possible consequence. .?.:_• 
 
 . A CONTRAST IN BKTTLGHE.NTS. 
 
 It is quite true they complain of their griev- 
 ances, and doubtless they suffer the incidents 
 cf settlement ia a new country , But it seems 
 
 to me, when I look back at the uarly history 
 of this country ; when I remember, as I have 
 had rccount'^d to me personally, the records of 
 the fathers of some of the mon who havo gone 
 into the Northwest and are now meeting in 
 convention for the purpose of declaring their 
 grievances ; when I remember how tlioEe 
 sturdy pioneers went into the backwoods of 
 old Canada with axes over their shoulder 
 and hewed out for themselves a home ; how 
 these men had to carry on their own backs 
 their bags of grain to the mill, eight or ten 
 miles distant, in order to have it ground and 
 take b'lck the flour with which to feed their 
 families ; when they had to go miles and 
 miles, leaving their wives and children ia 
 the forest clearing, to get the nearest doctor iu 
 order tl.at they might have the advantage of 
 his attent.'on when sickness occurred ; when 
 they were removed from all the advantages 
 and ahsociations of civilized life, and yet 
 when you go to Ontario to-day and find thoee 
 old men with their families round about them, 
 and hear them tell the story of their settle- 
 ment, one cannot but feel almost indignant 
 that their sons should be grumbling because 
 they have not a railway to their own doors. 
 (Cheers.) The grievances in the Nortliwest, 
 what are they ? Hon. gentlemen opposite 
 have manufactured the most of them ; hon. 
 gentlemen talk at Jut the land policy and the 
 evils connected with it, and about people 
 leaving the Northwest to go to Dakota, say- 
 ing they might there Ihid better land regula- 
 tions than in their <iwn country, — those hon. 
 gentlemen have do/ie more to etir up a sense 
 of grievance among the people of the North- 
 west than any others. One would imagine, 
 hearing them speak, even during this debate, 
 that the land regulations of the Northwest 
 coutrast most unfavourably with the regula- 
 tions in the United States. Do they so con- 
 trast? What is the fact ? -. 
 
 AMERICAN AND CANADIAN LAND POIilCIKS. 
 
 Here is a li ^parison between the homesteot* 
 policy of V anada and that of the Unites 
 States, which will show which is more favour- 
 able to settlers. In Canada the head of a fam- 
 ily or any male person not less than eighteon 
 years of age is entitled to a homestead him- 
 self In the United States he must be twenty, 
 one years of age before he is entitled to a 
 homestead entry. In Canada such entry may 
 be for any quantity not exceeding 160 acres 
 in a^y land open therefor ; the even number- 
 ed sections comprising about 80, 000, 000 acres 
 of the mcst fertile lands being free f )r3<;lec- 
 
■;*V ■ 
 
 10 
 
 !! 
 
 tion. In the United States, within the 
 railway belts, a man is only entitled to a 
 homestead of 80 acres. In Canada a man is 
 entiled to a pre-emption of 160 acres. In the 
 Un'.ted States pre-emptions have hecn abol- 
 ished. In Canada ho obtains his patent at 
 the end of three years' residence. In the 
 United States not until the end of five years. 
 In Canada he may have a second homestead 
 entry. In the United States he cannot have 
 a second homestead entry. In Canada he may 
 ooromute, by purchase, after a year's resi- 
 dence. In the United States be may commute by 
 purchase, but it is recommended at this mo- 
 ment that that privilege should bo restricted. 
 Now that is a contrast between the land regu- 
 lations of the two countrigs. (Cheers. ) We 
 hear hon. gentlemen telling us, and in such 
 a way as to induce settlers to believe it, that 
 the people are leaving the Northwest because 
 of the land regulations, and are going into 
 Dakota, where, presumably, they will enjoy 
 better regulations. Let these hon. gentlemen 
 say that something might be improved, that 
 the government might do differently from what 
 they arc doing ; but in tha name of all that is 
 patriotic, in the name of all that is true, in 
 tlie name of all that is decent, let them 
 not say — or make their statements in 
 regard to our country in such a way 
 as to imply when they say that people are go- 
 ing into a foreign country to escape the con- 
 ditions here — let them not make them in such 
 a wf / as to leave the impression that the 
 conditions there arc better than in our own 
 country. (Cheers.) *<- 
 
 HOW AMBBiCANS DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY. 
 
 The hon. gentleman was kind enough to say 
 that the Americar. press always had a keen 
 aecse of the honour of their own country, and 
 I believe the public men of the Un.'ted Stntes 
 always have a keen sense of the honour and 
 prosperity of their own country. You do not 
 find them complaining to the world of the 
 character of the land laws of their own coun- 
 
 try ; yea do not find them giving to the'r 
 enemies opportunities of quoting from their 
 journals paragraphs which tend to prevent 
 people from coming to that country. I heard 
 of an editor at Fargo, in the northern part c f 
 Dakota, who, when driven from the lower flat 
 of his office by the floods, went up ^o the up- 
 per flat and sitting on a high stool, and put- 
 ting his feet on a chair in order to keep them 
 out of the water, proceeded to write. And how 
 did he write: " Magnificent overflow of the 
 Red River I Splendid prospect for the crops for 
 the coning season I " (Cheers.) Thatistha 
 kind of spirit which makes the American 
 Northwest, and the opposite .of it 
 is the kind of spirit which is 
 doing so much harm to our country. 
 We have much more to fer,r to-day from the 
 feeling which seems to prevail with hon. gen- 
 tlemen opposite, that their only chanca for 
 success as politicians in this coun- 
 try depends on the ruin of the country. 
 We have much more to fear in re- 
 gard to this country from the:r doing 
 everything they can do to depreciate the 
 country and alarm the people who may ba 
 proposing to come here and share our lot— I 
 say wo have much more to fear from that than 
 from the financial position of the country, or 
 from our loaning on good security to the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway $22,500,000, 
 which wo are certain, by the conditions of 
 tte bargain, to get back ; and for one, Sir, I 
 have no hesitation in saying— and I h?ivo no 
 doubt whatever what the result will be when 
 the matter comes to be discussed by the peo- 
 ple of this country in the future — that the gov- 
 ernment would have been recreant to their 
 trust if; having so favonrable an opportunity 
 to secure the completion of the Canadian Pa- 
 cific Railway, they had, from timidity, from 
 fear, from th.e danger of meeting with opposi- 
 tion to their scheme, failed to put forivard 
 their hand and secure for the people of Canada 
 the early construction of the Canadian Pacific 
 Railwaj. (Loud cheers.) 
 
 
 SU", 
 
to the'r 
 )m their 
 preyent 
 I heard 
 n part c f 
 ower flat 
 tho up- 
 and put- 
 )ep them 
 And how 
 )w of the 
 crops for 
 lat is the 
 American 
 of it 
 Ich ia 
 country, 
 from the 
 ton. gen- 
 lanca for 
 coua- 
 country. 
 in re- 
 sir doing 
 ciato the 
 10 may be 
 ur lot — I 
 I that than 
 untry, or 
 ;y to the 
 },500,000, 
 ditions of 
 le, Sir, I 
 [ have no 
 I be when 
 the 1^80- 
 itthegov- 
 , to their 
 >portuiiity 
 adian, Pa- 
 lity, from 
 th opposi- 
 t forward 
 of Canada 
 Ian Pacific 
 
 THE BUDGET DEBATE. 
 
 * 
 
 SPEECH OF MR. THOS. WHITE, M. P. 
 
 The foUowing is the Hansard report of the 
 speech of Mr. Thos. White, M.P. for Card- 
 well, delivered in the House of Commons on 
 Tuesday evening, March 4th, in reply to Sir 
 Richard Cartwright : — 
 
 Mr. Speaker, I would very gladly, had it 
 suited the convenience of this Ik us", have re- 
 plied to the hon. gentleman on Friday last, 
 because I think that every one who has read 
 the speech which the hon. gentleman deli- 
 vered will admit it was one to which it would 
 have been better to reply on the spot. If, 
 sir, the reasoning and the facts advanced by 
 an hon. gentleman who addresses this house 
 are to be judged by the conclusions at which 
 he arrives, I think we may fairly assume that, 
 so fe,r as the public outside ar„ concerned, if 
 they take the trouble to follow the hon. gen- 
 tleman to his conclusiors, there is not much 
 likelihood of any serious damage being done 
 by the speech he delivered. I And that after 
 the hon. gentleman had given us numerous 
 details as to the loss this country had sustain- 
 ed, he concluded with this extraordinary state- 
 ment; — 
 
 " Ji'or tf*yself, I will not hesitate to say thpt, 
 looking at tlie tliiug ail round, I believe we 
 would have done better if we had borrowed 
 !{S00,000,000 or $400,000,000 and thrown the 
 money into the sea, or had blown it away in 
 fireworks, as other nations have done, than 
 allow these honourable gentlemen to control 
 the administration of this country. PMve years 
 of their government have done as' much mis- 
 chief to Canada, relatively to our population 
 and resources, as four years of civil war did to 
 the country and the people to the south of us." 
 
 When an honourable gentleman, who has 
 
 occupied the position of Finance Minister in 
 
 this country, whose position in this country 
 
 was so high that he has been honoured by his 
 
 Sovereign by being decorated, will venture 
 
 to make a statement of this kind in the face 
 
 of Parliament and the country, I think we 
 
 may fairiy say, either thb,t he has lost all 
 
 sense ot that responsibility which should 
 
 gentlemen when they, 
 or that he has become 
 
 attach to honourable 
 
 address Parliament, 
 
 thoroughly reckle^3 as to the effect anything 
 
 he may say will have. (Cheers. ) Not only 
 
 did lie state this as his first conclusion, but 
 
 his second conclusion was also remarkable: — 
 
 " More, sir ; I say it with regret, but I say that 
 tlie people of Canada liave deliberately retro- 
 graded ; I say that the people of Cansida have 
 not sliown, as a wliole, that regard for their 
 liberty, tliat jealous watchfulness of people in 
 power, that is the price that every free nation 
 must pay for being properly governed. I say 
 that to-day, in Canada, to ou'' sliame and loss 
 be it said, public morality is painlully low and 
 public opinion is painfully weak." 
 
 That is the statement of the hoa. gentleman, 
 who appears now to rejoice ia having made 
 it. I tell the hon. gentleman that the people 
 of this country will weigh those words and 
 ponder over them ; I tell the hon. gentleman 
 that tlie people of this country will not quietly 
 submit to insult, simply becaus* Uiey have 
 chosen to believe that the hon. gentleman' s 
 administration of their affairs was not in the 
 interest of the country, and therefcra exer- 
 cised their undoubted right of relegating him 
 to the position he now occupies. (Cheers. ) 
 
 THE KEPRESENTATIO.N" DISTRIBUTION ACT. 
 
 The how. gentleman commenced h's speech 
 by telling us that an act of imrliament had 
 pre\ ented his being here during last session. 
 We have heard that statement before from 
 other quarters, but what is the fact with re- 
 gaid to the hon. gentleman himself? He re- 
 presents to-day a constituency for which he 
 might have ruji, if the people would only 
 have selected him, in 1882 — a constituency 
 which he represents to-day, as the result of 
 the great p-essure brought to bear upon a re- 
 presentative assembly of the liberal party in 
 that constituency by the hon. leader and the 
 ex-leader of the opposition, who told them 
 that the discussion of financiAl questions iu 
 this house was likely to occupy a much 
 greater amount of attention in future, and 
 
12 
 
 -that the presence of the hon. gentleman m 
 parliament was of great import..ice to the 
 party, and who thus succeeded by a majority 
 of two in an assembly of some one hundred 
 and twenty of the liberals of the riding in in- 
 ducing them to nominate him and to send 
 him here to occupy the position he now 
 holds. (Hear, hear.) I dare say the hon. 
 gentleman felt keenly the rebuke, for it was 
 practically a rebuke which was administered to 
 him by that convention at that time ; I dare 
 say he is still smarting under that rebuke to- 
 day when he tells that the s seellhem, ccun- 
 trj', that they ha\o wofiilly retrograded, that 
 their moral tone is lowered, and their public 
 opinion painfully weak. Does the hon. gen- 
 tleman say that he was out of parliament last 
 ficseion in consequence of an act of parlia- 
 ment ? Where was the county of Lennox 
 which he had represented for years, and 
 which he used to carry by from six to eight 
 hundred majority ? It was open to him. if 
 he had so chosen, to go there. (Hear, hear.) 
 The pary in power to-day had been in office 
 for four years ; their policy was before the 
 country ; its eii'ects were known to the peo- 
 ple ; the hard times ^vhich, he said, had de- 
 ceived Jie people into supporting his op- 
 ponents had passed away, and he might have 
 gone back to his old constituency. But no ; 
 he did not go then, and what is more, he 
 did not go even at the last vacancy in that 
 constituency where he was best known, but 
 preferred, on the contrary, that the extraor- 
 dinary course should be pursued of opening 
 what was probably the safest constituency for 
 the party in the province of Ontario, in order 
 that he might take his seat in this house. 
 (Cheers.) And, sir, in the constituency which 
 he did run for, in the constituency of Centre 
 Wellington, what was the fact? Was he 
 left out of that constituency by the etfect of 
 an act of parliament ? Was that the cause of 
 his defeat ? Why, sir, in the townships com- 
 posing that constituency which were in the 
 •oustituency in 1878, and where my hon. 
 friend who now represents it obtained at that 
 time a majority of only six, the hon. gentle- 
 man was left in a minority of 130, witli all 
 the prestige of his position surrounding him. 
 (Oheers.) And with these evidences that the 
 people, at any rate, have no confidence in him, 
 kc comes to this house, under the peculiar 
 circumstances under which h.e has come to 
 it, and deliberately, in the first serious speech 
 he has to make, insults the people of Canada 
 in the manner which I have quoted here. 
 -(Cheers.) The hon. gentleman told us that 
 
 THE TONE OF THE FINANCE MINI3TBU 
 
 was somewhat different from the tone of the 
 Finance Minister at the last session of parlia- 
 ment, and he, apparently in a tone of rejoic- 
 ing, suggested to us that this policy, it was 
 now admitted, woul»! not avert over-produc- 
 tion and consequent injury to' manufacturers, 
 or avert loss of wages to their unfortunate 
 employees, t^'n^ it would not avert poor har- 
 vests or give larger markets for lumber, or 
 check over-importa'ion, and he tells us true 
 enc'igh. Yes, true enough, but was that an 
 evidence tha t his policy was correct ? Be- 
 cause, forsooth, there are certain things that 
 no policy which can possibly be adopted can 
 avert, therefore the doctrine of the hon. gen- 
 tleman, as carried out when he was in office, 
 was that those evils which may be averted, 
 those things which may be done, shall not 
 be done, but we shall fold our arms and look 
 on, and, admitting that Providence over-rules 
 us, admitting that harvests may be bad with- 
 out our influence, admitting that merchants 
 may over-import, that manufacturers may 
 over-produce, admitting all these things, we 
 will simply fold our arms and refuse to do 
 the things which we can do and which the 
 policy of the government has shown we can 
 do wisely and well, for the promotion of the 
 interests of the country. (Cheers.) 
 
 THE QUESTION OF TAXATION. 
 
 The hon. gentlemen then went on to speak 
 of the enormous taxation which exists in 
 Canada to-day, and, with a forgetfulness of 
 the exact facts of the case, he made a state- 
 ment which, in view of the fact that he has 
 been Finance Minister and is to-day the finan- 
 cial exponent of a great party in this country, 
 I think he ought not to have made. He tells 
 us that the taxes of this country to-day are 
 $35,000,000, and upon that basis he under- 
 takes to compare the position of Canada with 
 the position of the United States and with 
 that of England, coming to the conclusion, 
 advising all and sundry who may be inter- 
 ested in knowing anything of our position, 
 that the people of Canada are in a worse 
 plight than those of the mother country or of 
 the United States in respect of taxation. 
 Why, the hon. gentleman knows that, of that 
 $35,000,000, there were at least $6,524,950 
 that were not taxes in any form or shape. 
 As well might the hon. gentleman charge 
 that the merchants of Canada arc paying 
 taxes for tho freight charges they pay to the 
 independent railway companies of the coun- 
 try as to say that they are suffering taxation 
 
 tid 
 
13 
 
 from the fact that they are paying for the 
 transport of their goods over the Inter- 
 colonial Railway. As well might he charge 
 that the people of this country are siiflfering 
 taxatior for any service that is perlormed for 
 them, as to say they are suffering taxation 
 from the postal service that is provided for 
 thom. And so with other branches of the 
 public service. As I say, of that $35,000,000, 
 no less than $G, 524, 950 cannot, by any fair 
 statement, be called taxation for the 
 people of this country. (Cheers.) But the 
 whole system, as it seems to me, of chaigiug 
 the revenues of the country as taxation, and 
 of citing that as the measure of the burdens 
 of the pe > le is an entirely fallacious system. 
 Let me point out one or two facts in connec- 
 tion with It. I take 1874-75, and I find that 
 the revenues which the hon. gentleman had 
 during that year were |24,(348,715. I take 
 1877-78, and I find that the revenue which 
 the hon. gentleman had was $22,375,012, or 
 a decrease of revenue during that period of 
 $2,273,703. Does the hou. gentleman pre- 
 fer i to tell us that the taxation of this coun- 
 try was higher in 1874-75 than in 1877-78 ? 
 (Hear, hear.) Why. he had introduced 
 amendments to the tariff adding $1,600,000 
 to the taxation of the people of this country 
 during that interval, and, so far from it being 
 a measure of the burdens of the people, it 
 was in fact but a measure of this, that the 
 people in 1877-78 were less able to pur- 
 chase goods, were less able to enjoy luxuries, 
 were less able in fact to live comfortably, 
 and therefore, the receipts by the goAxrnment 
 were less than they were in 1874-75. Why, 
 the rate of duty paid by the people of Canada 
 in 1874-75 was 12.83. In 1877-78 when we 
 had the smaller revenue and therefore the 
 less taxation, it was 14.03 per cent. That 
 was the condition of things between those two 
 periods! (Cheers.) Then I take other 
 periods. 1 take 1867-G8 and 1873-74, and I 
 find that our revenues in 18(57-68 were $11,- 
 700,681, and in 1873-74 they were $20,129,- 
 185. and that, between those periods, the 
 government of this country had actually re- 
 duced taxation by taking duties off a number 
 of articles which were taxable in 1867-68. 
 Will it be pretended that the burden of taxa- 
 tion in this country was greater in 1873-74 
 than it was in 1867-68 ? I venture to say 
 that no man outside of this house or inside of 
 this house, who looks at this question fairly 
 and desires to deal with it fairly, will pre- 
 tend for a moment to say that the receipts of 
 the government are the measure of the bur- 
 
 den of taxation of the people of this country. 
 Why, during the last half year, we have had 
 ci great reduction in the receipts by the gov- 
 ernment. Have taxes gone down? The 
 greater part of the hon gentleman's 
 speech was devoted to telling us that the 
 people of this country were worse off than they 
 were in the corresponding period of the 
 previous year. Surely they were not worse 
 off by the fact that they were less taxed. 
 That was not the reason for their being worse 
 oft". Therefore, this whole system of taking 
 the receipts of the government as a measure 
 of the burden of taxation in this country is 
 an utterly fallacious system which I think 
 the hon. gentleman ought not to have resort- 
 ed to in the discussion of a subject like this 
 on the floor of parliament, in view of the fact 
 that all his utterances — unless indeed people 
 will go to the end of his speech and read the 
 two passages which I quoted in opening my 
 remards — everything that iie says here, may 
 be used outside to the prejudice, not of a 
 party in power, which is a matter after all of 
 secondary importance, but to the prejudice of 
 the country itself, and of ilt best interests. 
 (Cheers. ) 
 
 INSOLVKNCIES AND DEPRESSION. 
 
 Now, it is said, and truly said, tlmt we have 
 had a period of less prosperity than we had a 
 year ago. It is quite true that there have 
 been some insolvencies, some failures in the 
 country. 
 
 Mr. Pateuson (Brant. ) Surely not. 
 
 Mr. White — But what are the facts in re- 
 gard to these ? I find thai during the last 
 year the number of insolvents was 1,384, and 
 the amount of liabilities $15,949,361. I find 
 that in 1879, which was the year when we 
 felt the greatest effect of the depression which 
 existed previous to that time, we had 1,902 
 failures, and $29,347,937 as the liabilities of 
 tho.se failures. But, sir, in reference to the 
 failures of last year it is only fair to refer to 
 those which occurred in Manitoba and the 
 Northwest. The hon. the Finance Minister, in 
 referring to this matter the other day, spoke of 
 the failures in Winnipeg — I presume he 
 meant those in Manitoba and the Northwest ; 
 and I find, sir, that the failures in Manitoba 
 and the Northwest during the last year were 
 232, with liabilities of $2,869,000. So that, 
 taking a fair comparison of the failures in the 
 two periods I have mentioned, we find that 
 the failures during last year were 1,152, and 
 the amount of liabilities $13,080,000, as 
 against 1,902 failures in 1879, and liabilities 
 
14 
 
 sir, if we take the in- 
 
 II 
 
 of $29,347,937. But, 
 
 crease in the number of traders in that time 
 we will tind the comparison still more sig- 
 niticant. Jn 1879 thore were 56,000 traders 
 in Canada, and 1,902 ijiihires, or one failure 
 to every twenty-nine traders ; while in 1883 
 there were 65,000 traders with 1,384 failures, 
 or one failure to every forty-seven traders. 
 That was the ditl'erence between the two 
 periods of 1879 and 1883. (Cheers.) Now, 
 sir, there were failures in the United States 
 during that period as well. The failures 
 there increased almost exactly in the same 
 proportion that they increased in Canada 
 during the last three years. In the United 
 States the number of failures rose from 
 4,735, in 1880, to 9, 184, in 1883, and the lia 
 iilities from $65,752,000 to $172,874,000. 
 Now, sir, what was the opinion of those who, 
 after all, liave, perhai^s. the best moans ot 
 knowing the exact condition of the country ? 
 1 find that Dun, Wiman i Co., in their re- 
 port, referring to the condition of things in 
 the United States, in spite of those large 
 liiilures, said this: — 
 
 " While on the one hand, the disasters of the 
 year that is closed have shown weak spots in 
 the commercial fabric, wliieh were least ex- 
 pected in prosperous times Uiore are undeni- 
 able evidences of a stability «nd proflt existing 
 which few occurrences make public. It is safe to 
 say that tliere is to-day in llie United Htates a 
 greater number of successful business men 
 than ever before ; tliat ther • are numerous de- 
 partments of manufacture and trade which 
 are yielding a liberal return, that corporations 
 of immense wealtli, inlluence and usefulness 
 are prosperous beyond what they hav^ ever 
 been before in their history, and tliat monetary 
 institutions throughout the land are on a gene- 
 rally safe and paying basis. The sea'son just 
 ended has been an extremely favourable one 
 for the ' cattle upon a thousand hills.' taking 
 into the winter all four-footed animals in tlie 
 best condition, and leaving them less dependent 
 upon winter supplies, which will thus be saved. 
 The additions to our population by immigra- 
 tion, and the contributions to the wealth of the 
 country from that source have been greater 
 than In any previous year. Sections of the 
 country, wliicli in former years were either 
 unproductive or depressed, are now thriving 
 beyond all former experience." 
 
 Now, sir, that was the statement of Messrs. 
 Dun, Wiman & Co., in relation to the failnre« 
 in the United States, which had increased in 
 the same proportion as they hav« increased in 
 Canada. (Hear, hear.) VVhat was the state- 
 ment of the same firm in relation to Canada it- 
 self, last fall, in thecityof Montro'l, which, I 
 suppose, I may say is, to a very considerable 
 extent, the barometer by which may be test- 
 ed the commercial condition of the Dominion 
 of Canada ? There were parties in that city 
 
 attempting to creatt! almost a panic in connec- 
 tion with commercial matters, arid Mr, W. 
 W. Johnston, manager of Dun, Wiman & 
 Co., Montreal, published the following cir- 
 cular, dated 28th October, 1883:— 
 
 " It is to lie deeply rogrottod that sensational 
 rumours and inuendoes reflecting upon the col- 
 lective and individual credit of our banks and 
 merchants are dally ciriulated. For a month 
 past every day has brought with it a crop of 
 these exciting 'causes of uneasiness, no class 
 of trade interests being exempt from attack. 
 
 " In our opinion, after gathering pretty clcse 
 dataatmost points, there is no good reason for 
 appreliending any general commercial distress. 
 The conditions which lead to general weakness 
 are largely non-existant. No one short crop 
 will cause any great or lasting trouble. With 
 the eft'ect still lelt of previous lair harvests in 
 our favour the tentporary evil of one low aver- 
 age growth can well be endurt-d. ('oinmeri^ial 
 interests will still maintain suttlcieut vitality 
 to bo secure from serious interruption. 
 
 " Most of the stoppages we have seen have 
 b3en created by the most natural causes— would 
 occur in the best of times and carry but little 
 real sigulticancre Avith them~in so far as their 
 reflection upon a community is concerned. If 
 such interests drop quietly out from time to 
 time It is a positive help. 
 
 " Many will remember the excitement of last 
 spring and the character ot most of the con- 
 cerns which went to the wall. Wonder was 
 afterward commonlj expressed that the sen- 
 sations of that time should have reached tlie 
 pitch they did. 
 
 "Within the past ten day-; we have been 
 asked the most ridiculous questions about 
 some of our oldest and strongest houses. One 
 of the latest— a house handling a capiial of 
 several hundred thousand uollars, with a bank 
 balance in its favoiA- of $r)0,()UO or nvoHC. and 
 with a well managed business ; another with a 
 balance in its favour of near $:iO,000, conser- 
 vative and able to pick its custom. 
 
 " No censure can be too severe upoti the 
 authors of these rumours, ."xnd, if created in 
 selflsh interests, they take on a colouring dis- 
 graceful and unworthy in the extreme." 
 
 That was the opinion of the local manager of 
 Dun, Wiman & Co., in the City of Montreal, 
 in relation to the condition of trade iu^ that 
 city at that time. (Cheers. ) 
 
 OPIXIO.NS OF MERCHANTS AND OTHERS. 
 
 Well, sir, I go further. At that time a number 
 of tlic merchants of Montreal were interview- 
 ed, and their views were obtained as to the 
 absolute condition of trade. I will not 
 trouble the house Avith reading all these 
 statements, bat I thid that almost everyoutr 
 spoken to gave testimony to the efiect that, 
 while business was quiefc, there was uo 
 ground for serious alarm ; there was soimd- 
 ness at bottom and there was no serious feai' 
 as to what the effect of the temporory depres- 
 sion would be. I find, for instance, that Mr. 
 A. F. Gaulfc said :— 
 
15 
 
 "The merchants jjenerally, he believed, 
 looked forward to a fair tra<le In the spring. 
 Tlie importations were considerably less this 
 fall, as compared with tlie last two or three 
 years. The cotton trade had improved some 
 wliat since the last reports." 
 
 I find tliat Mr. J. S. 
 of McLachlan Eros. 
 
 McLachlan, of the firm 
 & Co. , reported : 
 
 "A fair fall trade, but payments had been 
 delayed, owing to the late luirvest, which had 
 been fully twoweelts behind anjy^ previous year. 
 Importations were, of course, lighter than dur- 
 ing the past two or three years, o-ving to the 
 increase in home manufj.^ture. Tlie importa- 
 tions for the spring trade, he thouglit, would 
 be considerably ligliter than last year. In all 
 classes of homo manufacture tlie prices liad 
 been lower tiian they had ever been before." 
 
 Then, sir, I find that the Hon. Mr. Thibau- 
 def.u, whose opinions, I presume, will be ac- 
 cepted by hon. gentlemen opposite — unless, 
 indeed, t'le vote he gave in another place last 
 night may have some etlect upon them — but 
 I find that he is reported to have stated ; 
 
 "That wliile the sales liave not been very 
 good, tlie remittances have, on tlie whole, been 
 satisfactory. The stoclts heldgenerally througli- 
 out the country were light, and business in tlie 
 town and other small centres was not, in his 
 estimation, overcrowded. There had been a 
 large number of failures during tlie first six 
 m.onths, but during the latter part of the year 
 the number had been very limited, indeed. The 
 importations hsid been much lighter tliis fall 
 than during tlie last two ortireo years, and 
 their orders for the coming spring were about 
 25 per cent, less than last year. The state of 
 the cotton trade had, he thought, been grossly 
 misrepresented, and was not nearly so bad as 
 some people tried to malce out. He did not be- 
 lieve, either, that the manufacturers were so 
 overcrowded witli goods as had be on stated." 
 
 Then, sir, I find tht> « Mr, James O' Brien, of 
 
 the firm of James O'Brien & Co., wholesale 
 
 clothiers, reported : 
 
 " A splendid fall trade, with very fair pay- 
 ments. The stocks held throughout the coun- 
 try were not, generally speaking, large, and the 
 business In the towns was not more overdone 
 than it had been during the last twenty years." 
 
 Messrs. Cantlie, Ewen &. Co., reported : 
 
 "The trade this fall rather quiet, but still 
 what business was being done was a good 
 sound business. Remittances were very good, 
 the importations had been much lighter tiiis 
 fall than during the last few years, and one 
 wholesale dry goods firm had reported to them 
 that theii importations for the spring would be 
 £11,000 less than last year. This did not mean 
 that the sales of this firm would be any less 
 than this year, but simply that they would sell 
 Just that quantity of Canadian instead of im- 
 ported goods." 
 
 Mr. Thomas Workman, whose opinion as a 
 
 merchant, I fancy, will have some weight in 
 
 this house, declared that 
 
 " The volume of business doing was scarcely 
 equal to last year. But still it had been very 
 satisfactory so far, and paymenis had been 
 2 
 
 very fa'r. The stocks held throughout the 
 country were, if anything, a little large, and 
 there wore rather too many people in business 
 in the towns, but he did not feel at all discour- 
 aged ; he thought that the future was very 
 promising. There would not, he thought, be a 
 very extensive business done during the com- 
 ing season, but he could not see any elfinents 
 of danger, which some people seemed to anti- 
 cipate." 
 
 I might go on reading a number of those, bu 
 I will not detain the house with reading mor*^ 
 than this additional one : Mr. Hutchison^" 
 vice-president of the Dominion Commercia; 
 Travellers' Association, a body of gentlemenl 
 who have probably as good moans of know- 
 ing what the condition of trade is as any per- 
 son can have, at the annual dinner of the asso- 
 ciation, given in the Windsor Hotel at the 
 end ot December last, made this statement •. 
 
 " Let me say shortly then, as the result of 
 personal experience, as well as information 
 gathered by comparing notes witli brotlier 
 travellers, we do not regard the commercial 
 outlook of the country such as by any means 
 to occasion alarm." 
 
 That, sir, vsras the position of trade in the 
 estimation of a gentleman whose means of 
 knowing what was going on wire probably as 
 good as those which almost any other gentle- 
 man could possess. (Cheers.) Then I find 
 on December Ist Mr. Smithors, manager of 
 the Bank of Montreal and president of that 
 institution, made this str- tement : — 
 
 "They did not anticipate any serious diffi- 
 culty on the part of Importers and manufac- 
 turers ill meeting their engagements falling 
 due In February and March, and they had no 
 Indications of any strain on the mercantile 
 community. They could not recall the name 
 of any firm that had made any unusual propo- 
 sitions to them, their lines of discount being 
 all down and very reasonable." 
 
 / vd the managers of the Merchants' , Com- 
 merce, People's, British North Ameiica, 
 Molsons, and Toronto Banks all expressed 
 practically the same opinion at that particu- 
 lar time, in relation to the condition of trade 
 in this country. (Cheers.) 
 
 Mr. Paterson (Brant) — Might I ask the 
 hon. gentleman, without interrupting him, 
 the date of Dun, Wiman k Co.'s letter. 
 
 Mr. WuiTE — October 20th. Then, sir, 
 I have an authority as recent as December 
 Ist, 1883, wl).ich hon. gentlemen opposite 
 usually regard as a tolerably good authority, I 
 mean the authority of the Toronto Globe, 
 which, in a lucid interval, said as follows, in 
 regard to the condition of trade : — 
 
 " Our expoi't trade has grown rapidly. In 
 nine months of this year the value of cattle 
 and sheep sent to Great Britain exceeded the 
 value of the wheat and flour we sent. This 
 year we have had a magniliceut hay crop, and 
 
16 
 
 the root crop has been Kood iu many sections. 
 We should, thorefore, be able to export more 
 cattle and more butter and cheese, and thus 
 make up to a great extent for the shortage ol 
 the grain crop. Our lumber trade, too, is de- 
 piessed, but it is not by any means in as batl a 
 condition as it lias olien been before. On the 
 whole, the prospect, although clouded and 
 somewhat gloomy, Is not such as to justify the 
 alarm wlilch seems to be felt in some quar- 
 ters." [Cheers.] 
 
 These are the opinions of a number of per- 
 sons in relation to tlie condition of trade, 
 
 THE TEST OF THE HA.\K RETURNS. 
 
 But we have auotlier test, and after all, 
 jierhaps it is one of the best tests that can be 
 ai)plied as to the condition of trade, and that 
 is the position of the banks in the diU'erent 
 intervals. I find, sir, the condition of the 
 banks at the end of 1882 and 1883 respec- 
 tively, gives us an exceedingl}' good estimate 
 of what was the condition of trade. The 
 following are tlio figures : — 
 
 CIRCULATION AND LOANS. 
 
 Dec., 1882. 
 Circulation $ 36,501,094 
 
 Loans on stocks. . .$ 10,801,583 
 Loans to commer- 
 cial companies. . 12,153,532 
 
 Discounts 144,414,108 
 
 Over-due debts 3,131,551 
 
 Total loans $176,500,774 $103,444,809 
 
 Then I take (he cash resources of the banks, 
 which were, in fact, much larger in 1883 than 
 1882. They increased in the aggregate — I 
 will not trouble the house with going over 
 the details— from $41,077,273 to $52,184,833, 
 an aggregate increase during that time of 
 $11,000,000. (Hear, hear.) Then the con- 
 dition of the exchanges was exceedingly fa- 
 vourable to the banks, comparing these two 
 periods. The statement is as follows : — 
 
 VALUE OF HANK STOCKS. 
 
 But I come to another point, and that is 
 the condition of bank stocks. The hon. 
 Finance Minister has made reference to this 
 matter. I am aware that the condition of 
 bank stocks is not always to be taken as an 
 absolutely accurate test of the condition of 
 the ct>mmerce of the country : but it has its 
 influence, and it must be regarded as an im- 
 portant factor in determining that condition. 
 Sir, what do we find ? That for eleven banks 
 j Montreal, Ontario, Peoples, Molsons, To- 
 ronto, Jacques Cartier, Merchants, Eastern 
 I Townships, Commerce, Quebec and Hamil- 
 ! ton, the aggregate value of those stocks on 
 January 2nd, 1879, amounted to $38,357,000, 
 and on the 2nd January, 1884, to $48,803,- 
 000, or an increase in the value of the stocks 
 of those eleven banks during the period from 
 1879 to 1884 of no less than $10,446,000; 
 and curiously enough since this parliament 
 opened we have had an increase in the value 
 of the stocks of those eleven banks, amount- 
 ing to nearly $3,000,000, the exact figures be- 
 ing $2,977,000. But still more strange, I 
 $ 10,415,155 I find that since the speech of the hon. gentle- 
 I man, since the commercial people of Canada 
 I have had the opportunity of knowing what 
 ' terrible lo.sses this country has sustained, 
 i since they heard that there were some $300. - 
 000,000 or $400,000,000 which might as well 
 ! have been thrown into the sea, or sent off in 
 
 Dec, 1883. 
 
 $ 33,589,454 
 
 15,254,860 
 
 133,378,550 
 
 4,390,298 
 
 Due United States 
 Due Great Britain 
 
 Dec, 1882. 
 
 .$ 211,375 
 
 1,349,442 
 
 Dec, 1883. 
 $ 155.141 
 1,430,171 
 
 § 1,560,817 $ 1,585,312 
 
 Due from United 
 
 States $11,140,072 $18,000,156 
 
 Due from Great Bri- 
 tain 1,813,235 4,225,913 
 
 $12,953,307 $22,286,009 
 
 The deposits were practically maintained 
 during the period. They were as lollows : — 
 
 Dec, 1882, Dec, 1883. 
 
 Dominion Govern- 
 ment deposits $ 8,468,228 $ 7,032,410 
 
 Provincial Govern- 
 ment deposits 2,192,045 3,170,330 
 
 Public deposits 96,879,544 96.009,746 
 
 i fire-crackers, p.s other nations have c4one, the 
 j stocks of these banks have increased nearly 
 ! $500,000. They are actually to-day more va- 
 ! luable than they were five days ago, accord- 
 ! ing to the reports of yesterday' s transactions 
 on 'Change, by the sum of $430,000. 
 I (Cheers.) 1 think I may accept 
 that fact as an evidence at 
 I any rate, that whatever effect the hon. gent 
 : tleman' s speech may have had in this house, 
 it did not very seriously alarjn those who are 
 I in the habit of dealing in commercial trans- 
 actions, and of studying precisely what is the 
 I position of commercial affairs. (Cheers.) 
 i Then with regard to the shipping trade, how 
 ' was it during the last year ? I find that 
 I the total tonnage of vessels arriving in the 
 City of Montreal in 1880 was 628,271 ; iu 
 i 11^81, 531,929; in 1882, 554,646 ; in 1883, 
 664,263 ; or un increase of very nearly 111,- 
 I 000 tons last year as compared with the year 
 i before in the tonnage of vessels whicL visited 
 the port ot Montreal. These figures certain- 
 ly do not look as if we were suffering very 
 seriously in connection with the commerce of 
 the country, in spite of the quietness which 
 
17 
 
 hat if* 
 hon. 
 ) this 
 on of 
 as an 
 ion of 
 1H8 its 
 m im- 
 ition. 
 banks 
 To- 
 astern 
 lamil- 
 
 prevailed in many respects, 
 the 
 
 Let us take next 
 
 POST OFFICE AND OOVERNMENT SAVINGS BANKS. 
 
 The Finance Minister ha« already given us 
 the figures, the total deposit for the year 
 amounting to $17,722,094. There has been a 
 steady increase in those deposits, as the fol- 
 lowing figures will show : The increase in 
 1879 was $71G,0G9 ; in 1880, $1,845,272 ; in 
 1881, $4,783,715 ; in 1882, $5,931,989 ; in 
 1883, $4,450,445. (Hear, hear.) Those 
 were the increases during the last six years. 
 La^t year, with all the d( icssion of which we 
 heard, with all the misery that was said to 
 exist among the people of this country, there 
 was actually an increase of $4,500,000 in the 
 deposits of the people in the government and 
 post olfice savings banks of the country. 
 The hon. gentleman was kind enough to say 
 that he did not regard those fig- 
 ures as an absolute evidence of 
 prosperity, or as a thing to be rejoiced 
 at. He told us that they indicated two thing.s : 
 First, that the government were paying 4 per 
 cent, for money, which in ordinary banks of 
 the country, was worth only 3 or 3 J per cent., 
 and that therefore they were outbidding the 
 chartered banks for deposits of the people' s 
 earnings. Tnen he told us further, that it 
 was an evidence that this money, which was 
 lying in the post office and other government 
 savings banks, ought to be employed in ordi- 
 nary commercial or industrial pursuits out- 
 side. As to the latter argument I confess I 
 was somewhat astonished when I found the 
 hon. gentleman after laying down that doc- 
 trine, telling us that already there were ten 
 millions of the peoole' s money in this coun- 
 try invested in non-productive industries. 
 (Cheers.) What does the hon. gentleman 
 want ? If the people put their money in the 
 savings banks they are told that they are 
 making a great mistake, and they should put 
 it in the productive industries. If, on the 
 other hand, they put their money in produc- 
 tive industries, they are taunted with putting 
 ten million dollars of their monej'^ in what 
 the hon. gentleman describes as non-produc- 
 tive industries, to the great loss and danger 
 of the people of this country. (Cheers.) But 
 is it a fact that the government aie outbid- 
 ding the chartered banks for these deposits ? 
 If that argument were true the hon. gentle- 
 man should be able to show that the deposits 
 in the regular banks of the country have de- 
 creased during the period to which he 
 refers ; but so liar from that be- 
 
 ing the case I find that from the 3l8t of July, 
 1879, to the 31st July, 188.3— and, as I have 
 shown from the other figures I have quoted, 
 they were practically the same at the end of 
 the year — there was an increase in the de- 
 posits in the ordinary cliartered banks of the 
 country of no less than $35,393,180. (Cheers. ) 
 So it cannot be said by any process ot reasoning 
 that the country has lost in consequence of 
 these deposits having been made in the sav- 
 ings banks. Put, sir, the hon. gentleman 
 did not always think it was a bad thing to cite 
 the deposits in the savings banks as an evi- 
 dence that the country was tolerably prosper- 
 ous. I am not going to quote hon. gentlemen 
 against themselves, because I think that is a 
 practice more honoured in the breach than in 
 the observance ; but, I think, we may tairly 
 in this case, when the hon. gentleman comes 
 back to us as he does, announced in advance 
 as the financial exponent of the party of which 
 he is a member — I say we may fairly refer to 
 what he said, not on the floor of parliament, 
 but in the most formal way in which a min- 
 ister can make such a statement, namely, in 
 a circular addressed to investors in England, 
 as an evidence of the views he entertained at 
 that time. I find in that circular, issued in 
 1874, Mr. Cartwright stated : — 
 
 " The deposits in savings banks and societies 
 have Increased from £1,240,059 sterling in 
 1807 to £3.754,820 sterling in 1875." 
 
 At that time it was a matter to be rejoiced at, 
 a matter to be presented to the investors in 
 England as evidence of the prosperity of this 
 country, that there were large deposits in the 
 savings banks, and the hon. gentleman very 
 properly used it for that purpose. (Cheers.) 
 But to-day, when he finds that those increases 
 stand in the way of the gloomy picture winch 
 he desires to paint, he tells us that these 
 figuies are an evidence either that the gov- 
 ernment have been outbidding, and impro- 
 perly outbidding, the banks for deposits, or 
 that money has been put in the savings 
 banks which should have gone into produc- 
 tive industries outside. As to this question 
 of money going into productive industries, I 
 may point out that of this $17,750,000 at 
 deposit in the savings banks at the close of 
 last year no less than $11,976,237 were in 
 the post office savings banks. Now, it is 
 well know that a depositor of the post oflice 
 savings banks cannot have at his credit, at 
 any time, more than $1,000. Well, what do 
 we find ? I find that there are, at this mo- 
 ment, no less than G 1,003 depositors in those 
 post oflice savings banks, persons who have 
 
accouotH in thoHc inHtitutionH, and that the 
 average amount to thecTcditofeach depositor 
 is conKiderably under $200. Now, 1 think, we 
 may fairly asHume that the 61,- 
 000 persons who average $200 each 
 in the savings banks of the country 
 are hardly in a position to invest 
 in those productive industries which 
 the hon. gentleman says ought to have 
 absorbed this money, but that, on the con- 
 trary, a fair inference from the figures is, that 
 the people of Canada, the working 
 people of Caaada, the ordinary wage 
 earners of Canada, are the persons who have 
 been depositing, and are keeping accounts in 
 the post office savings banks of this country, 
 and that the fact that this large amount lies 
 in these banks to their credit, ought to be 
 the best evidence we can have, that there is 
 no such distress in Canada as the hon. gentle- 
 man desired to picture. (Loud cheers. ) We 
 are told that there is great 
 
 DESTITUTION AMONG THE X'KOPLB 
 
 and the hon. gentleman referred us — and in- 
 deed we were referred once before in this par- 
 liament — to this fact that here and there soup 
 kitchens have been established, as evidence 
 that the National Policy, forsooth, has not 
 succeeded. Now, sir, there are, undoubtedly, 
 in all our large cities and centres of popula- 
 tion, the poor who have to be attended to. It 
 is one of the glories of this country, I think, 
 that by a system of voluntary contributions 
 from the people, in Montreal — and I believe 
 the same remark applies to Toionto and other 
 cities — commodious establishments have been 
 erected which are devoted expressly to the 
 care and maintenance of the poor, whom we are 
 told by Him who spake as never man spake, we 
 will have always with us. It is quite true 
 that we have this class of people in the coun- 
 try 5 but let me give you one or two illustra- 
 tions. In the city of Hamilton, at the open- 
 ing of the present municipal year, my very 
 dear personal friend, though political oppon- 
 ent, the present Mayor of Hamilton, made his 
 inaugural address, in which he so far forgot 
 the mayor in the politician as to venture a 
 remarkable statement regarding the terrible 
 amount of misery in that city. A member of 
 the council at once called upon him to give 
 particulars. He declined to give particulars ; 
 ibut at the very next meeting, if I mistake 
 mot, of the city council, the mayor came down 
 ;aud withdrew everything he had said, and 
 declared that among a large number of fami- 
 lies, some 110, whom he had visited in com- 
 
 pany with two of the aldermen on a charitable 
 mission, he had not found more than one or 
 two mechanics out of employment. They 
 were the old, the decrepit, widows and orph- 
 ans — that class of people for whom we al- 
 ways make contributions, and properly so, 
 and whom we ought to make our best endea- 
 vour always to assist. (Hear, hear. ) Then, 
 in the local house, a member representing 
 one of the ridings of Wentworth made a state- 
 ment regarding the condition of his riding, 
 which the town council of Dundas repudiated 
 as injurious to their town, and as not pro- 
 perly representing the condition of the 
 industries and the people of that 
 town. Again, sir, before one of the com- 
 mittees of this house — if I may be 
 permitted to refer to it — we learned that 
 among those who are the subjects of charity 
 in the city of Toronto, 226 are old men and 
 women and 400 children. I venture to say, 
 sir, that if you will go through our cities to- 
 day you will find very few men able and will- 
 ing to work who are out of employment. 
 Wages may not be so great as they were a 
 year or two ago. The same conditions are 
 obtaining here as obtain in the United States 
 and in England at this moment. Wages are 
 going down in consequence of the general de- 
 pression and the decrease in the value of 
 goods. These things happen everywhere in 
 spite of every policy. They are found in 
 England under free trade, in the United States 
 under absolute protection, and in this country 
 under quasi protection which in the United 
 States would be regarded as almost free trade. 
 
 An hon. Member — And in France. 
 
 Mr. White — In France as well. Every- 
 where you find these conditions ; you find 
 that working people must take less for their 
 labour, just as people take less for their 
 goods. But I venture the statement, that 
 there is not to be found in the cities and 
 towns of the DoBMnion any such condition of 
 things as that which we were compelled to 
 face in 1877 and 1878, when, sir, we had 
 bread riots in the city of Montreal ; when we 
 had what were almost bread riots in the city 
 of Ottawa, and when there were, in almost 
 all all the cities and towns of this country, 
 men able and anxious to work, who could not 
 get employment. (Cheers.) There is no 
 such state of things at this moment. Is our 
 present condition exceptional ? I said that 
 the same thing exists in England. I have 
 here an extract from a leading editorial in 
 the London Daily Telegraph, of February 
 14th, which is as follows : — 
 
19 
 
 I 
 
 B 18 no 
 Is our 
 
 $aid that 
 I have 
 
 itorial in 
 
 February 
 
 "Times are bad all round. Therels difficulty $47,735,678 to $48,631,739, or an inc-^aso of 
 and despondency not In one trade but in all. A i «, i nn rmf. i.n<1 r finri ihat fr«»« ar«..f n-ii^air, 
 liberal authority states that the year has be- 1 *^' 100,000, and 1 hnd that ftom (ireat Britain 
 gun biidly everywhere for businessmen; the 
 depression of twelve months ago has been in- ' 
 tenslfled. On all sides we see evidence that ^ 
 business Is unprofitable and that production is I 
 to b3 curtailed. Wages throughout the couu- 1 
 try are falling fast. It is a common saying in I 
 the city that there is at the present time no i 
 trade so bad as the iron trade except the grain 
 trade, and that the cotton industries are worse 
 than either. All this will lead to thousands, 
 perhaps hundreds of thousands, being thrown 
 out of work." 
 
 Mr. 
 that? 
 
 Mr. 
 
 Mr. 
 
 Mr. 
 with 
 
 Paterson (Brant) — What paper is 
 
 White — The London Daily Telegraph. 
 
 PATKR30N — What an unpatriotic paper. 
 
 Whits — Possibly. We are dealing 
 
 questions seriously in this house, al- 
 
 though I have no objections to try conclus- 
 ions with the lion. gentlei»an in the other 
 tone if that be the tone he desires to adopt. 
 So much, sir, for the condition of trade in 
 this country at the present moment. (Hear, 
 hear. ) Then, sir, the hon. gentleman told 
 us that this policy had failed because it had 
 not brought about that 
 
 INCREASED TRADE WITH GREAT RRITAIN 
 
 which it was predicted it would bring about, 
 and he took for his comparison the years 
 1873 and 1883. Why should he have taken 
 those two years ? Does he not know that in 
 1833 the condition of the United States as to 
 the price of labour, as to the cos* of produc- 
 tion, and as to the price of commodities of 
 every kind was such that it operated as a bet- 
 ter protection to the people and manufac- 
 turers of Canada than any protection we have 
 had since or before. Does he not know that 
 at that particular time you could buy goods in 
 Canada at our retail stores for 
 almost halt — certainly three-fourths — of the 
 price paid for them in the United States ? 
 Does he not know that the United States in 
 those days was an exceedingly dear country 
 owing to conditions that still remained, aris- 
 ing out of the inflated currency which had 
 been in circulation. Sir, a comparison be- 
 tween the years 1873 and 1883 is not a fair 
 comparison ; but what would be a fair com- 
 parison would be a comparison of the period 
 from 1873 to 1878, with the period fiom 1879 
 to 1883, and I take these periods, because the 
 trade returns are made in the same way from 
 1873 to 1878 and from 1879 to 1883, and the 
 disturbances referred to by the hon. gentle- 
 man do not exist ; and, sir, what do we find ? 
 I find, sir, that from 1873 to 1878, our im- 
 ports from the United States increased from 
 
 during that period, our imports decreased 
 from 168,522,776 to $37,431,180, or over 
 $31,000,000, so that during the perifxi in 
 which this hon. gentleman controlled the 
 affairs of this country, during the period 
 in which he had, for the sins of this people, 
 charge of its finances, while the imports from 
 the United States increased $1,100,000 the 
 imports from Great Britain decreased 
 over $31,000,000. (Cheers). That was 
 the position in which we then stood 
 with regard to our imports. With regard to 
 our exports, I find that during the same time 
 our exports to the United States decreased 
 from $42,072,526, in 1873, to $25,244,898, in 
 1878, ora decrease of $16,827,728 •, and while 
 our imports from Great Britain were de- 
 creasing in the enormous ratio I have 
 mentioned, our exports to Great Britain had 
 increased but $7,197,691. What was the 
 condition of things from 1879 to 1883, during 
 which period the hon. gentlemen now oc- 
 cupying the treasury benches have been in 
 office and the national policy has been in 
 force ? The imports from Great Britain in- 
 creased from $30,993,130 to 52,052,465, or 
 an increase of $21,059,365; while the im- 
 ports from the United States, though they 
 also show an increase, show but an increase of 
 $12,293,114, Our exports to Great Britain 
 in this period increased $10,849,499. and our 
 exports to the United States $13J503,222. 
 But if we analyse the trade between the two 
 countries, we will find that our importations 
 from Great Britain of the manufacturing pro- 
 ducts 01 that country which it is their interest 
 to export, increased in a far erreater ratio re- 
 latively than the figures I have just given in- 
 dicate to us. The impo-ts from the United 
 States from 1878 to 1883 ncreased $7,400,- 
 594, but the increased importation of raw ma- 
 terial and machinery alone amounted to 
 $9,483,652, or $2,082,058 more than the en- 
 tire increase ; so that over two million dol- 
 lars more than the entire amount of 
 the increase of our imports from 
 the United States, were in raw material, and 
 machinery which is |certainly an evidence 
 of the growth of manufacturing industry in 
 this country, and went into the development 
 of that industry. (Cheers. ) If we take rail- 
 way supplies and settlers' effects, we find 
 -lat the imports from the United States of 
 raw material, machinery, railway supplies 
 and settlers' eftects altogether amounted to 
 $5,483,240 more than the total increase in 
 
so 
 
 H 
 
 ', I 
 
 of thp ordin- 
 Grt'iit Britain 
 of $10,000,- 
 another ovi- 
 policy on the 
 
 importN from the United States. Wliat 1)hk 
 been the result with regar I to Great Britain? 
 Prom Great Britain our total increoHe was 
 $14,621,285, in which raw material, ma- 
 chinery, railway Bupplies and nettlerK' effects 
 amounted to $4,09;{,28G, or an incrjased im- 
 portation of ordinary manufactured goods 
 from Great Britain of $9,927,999, or $10,- 
 000,000 in round tigurcH ; ho that the effect 
 of the policy which has been adopted, so far 
 as that effect has developed itself in o.ir trade 
 returns up to this time, has been that while 
 the importation of ordinary manufacture! 
 goods from the United States has decreased 
 $5,500,000, the importation 
 ary manufactured goods of 
 has increased upwards 
 000. (Cheers.) I take 
 dence of the effect of this 
 trade of the two 'countries respectively as to 
 its being a policy inimical to Great BriUiin, 
 because that was, as I understand it, the point 
 the hon. gentleman desired to make. I find 
 that the rate of duties on imported goods from 
 Great Britain increased fiom 16-1, in 1877, to 
 19, in 1883; and from the United States it 
 increased from 08-5 to 14-5 in the same pe- 
 riod. That is to say the increase in 1883 over 
 1877 on goods from Great Britain was 02.9, 
 and on goods from the United States OG, or, 
 taking a per centage of increase on the duty 
 itself, the duty on British imports was in- 
 creased 18 per cent, on the duty itself, while 
 the duty on imports from the United States 
 was increased upwards of 7C per cent, on the 
 duty itself. (Cheers.) That is the result of 
 the statement furnished by the trade returns 
 in relation to our trade with Great Britain. 
 Then we come to 
 
 THE QUESTION OP THE BALANCE OF TRADE 
 
 to which the hon. gentleman was good enough 
 to refer. I find that our entire imports in 
 1878, were $93,0S1,787, and our exports 
 $68,158,789, of the produce of Canada alone, 
 not including the produce of other countries, 
 making an adverse balance of $24,922,998. 
 The adverse balance in 188a, was apparently 
 very much greater, the imports amounting to 
 $132,264,022,and the exports to $88,334,031, 
 making an adverse balance of $43,919,804. 
 But when you come again to deal 
 with the question of raw material, 
 railway supplies and maohineiy, whose 
 importation was in fact the test of 
 the development of manufacturing industry 
 in this country, I find that, leaving those out, 
 the actual adverse balance in 1878 was $12,- 
 
 114,919; and in 1883, $12,401,121 ; and tlmt 
 in spite of the fret that we had so largely in- 
 creased our imports from abroad. ^Hear, 
 hear.) Comparing 1874 and 1875, (luring 
 each of which years there was a balance of 
 trade against us of upwards of $50,000,000, 
 I think wo can fairly say this tariff has not 
 been a failure in producing, as near as posfii- 
 ble, an equilibriunn between our imports and 
 exports. The hon. gentleman dwelt at con- 
 siderable length on 
 
 TKB EXl'ENDITUHE IN THIS COUNTRY, 
 
 and he sought to leave the impression on the 
 minds of those whom he addressed, in so far 
 as they wore disposed to take impressions 
 from him, that the expenditure of this coun- 
 try had been terribly extravagant, and that, 
 if he and his friends had remained in office, 
 $25,000,000 would have been ttie limit of the 
 expenditure necessary to carry on the affairs 
 of the country. What are the exact fects ? 
 In 1878 the expenditure was $23,503,158 ; in 
 1883 it was $28,730,157, a difference of 
 $5,226,999. But when you come to analyse 
 this increase, you find that in the items of 
 the interest on the public debt, sinking fund, 
 subsidies to provinces, legislation, immigra- 
 tion, public works, Indian accounts, militia, 
 and the collection of the revenue, no less than 
 a sum of $4,537,041 included under those 
 heads. It may be that the hon. gentleman, 
 had he been in office, would have been able 
 to lessen the expenditure in regard to 
 those items. It may be that he 
 could have reduced the interest on the 
 public debt, but judging by the way the in- 
 terest was increased when he was in office, I 
 may be permitted to have my doubts as to 
 the success of the experiment. (Hear, hear. ) 
 It may be, sir, that he would have been able 
 to decrease the amount payable for the sink- 
 ing fund. It may be that he would have re- 
 fused to give any additional subsidies to 
 the provinces, end in that respect he might 
 have deforce sed the amount. It may be that 
 he could have decreased the amount payable 
 for legislation, although I think that the 
 members of this house and the people at Ictrge 
 will say that, if anybody is responsible for 
 the extent of the expenses of legislation, hon. 
 gentlemen at all events must take their full 
 share of tbe responsibility. (Cheers.) It 
 may be that he could have decreased the 
 amount for immigration — that is a matter of 
 public policy. It may be oLat he would 
 have decreased the amount for public 
 works, $861,000, but, if he did, the people 
 
21 
 
 who have had tliat t'xpon<lituro in public 
 works all through thi.i country, wouid liiivo 
 been deprived of the advantai^e of that ex- 
 penditure, and I venture to tldnk that they 
 very much prefer the coTidition of things iw 
 tiiey exist. (Hear, hear.) It may be tliat 
 he would have decreasecl the cost ot the 
 militia. It may be that the collection of the 
 revenue would not jiavo cost so much under 
 him as under this administration, aUiiougli, 
 if one is to judge of tlie results by the live 
 years during which ho controlled the finances, 
 he would not have been very successful in 
 tJuit particular. (Hear, hear.) There 
 was an increase on these items alone 
 of $4,500,000, which, ailded to the 
 $23,500,000 would make §28,000,000 
 as the amount of expenditure, even if hon. 
 gentlemen had been in ottico and had exer- 
 cised all the economies they could have exer- 
 cised, and not the $ji5,000,000 ho says would 
 have been the limit of the amount he would 
 have expended. 1 take the il«ui of collection 
 of revenue. It is a large increase, it is true, 
 $1,321,031, but two items alone of that in- 
 crease make up $1,234,590, and, while the in- 
 crease in the e.cpenditure has amounted to that, 
 the increase in the revenue from those two 
 branchea of public works and post office has 
 amounted to over $400,000 in excess of that, 
 8o that wc certainly have not lost much un- 
 der the circumstances in that operation. 
 (Cheers.) 
 
 COMPARISON OP PR03PBROUS YEARS. 
 
 But a better comparison to take, as an indica- 
 tion of what would have been the expenditure 
 if the hon. gentlemen had been in power dur- 
 ing the prosperous time we have had, and 
 which they tell us would have been prosper- 
 ous if they had been here quite as much as 
 under the present administration, is to take 
 the years 1875-76, when they were fairly 
 seated in their saddles and in a position, as 
 they thought, of going on in a prosperous 
 career of administration for years. We find 
 that the total expenditure in 1875-70 by hon. 
 gentlemen who tell us to-day that they never 
 would have increased the expenditure 
 beyond $25,000,000, was $24,488,372, 
 and that, as compared with the ex- 
 penditure of last year, leaves a balance 
 of $4,241,785 in excess. I take special items 
 in regard to that. Take the ordinary expen- 
 diture which !nay be sf J to be controllable 
 expenditure. I find that the increase in the 
 ordinary expenditure was $684,090, and that 
 the increase in the Indian grants included in 
 
 that ordinary expenditure was $830,036, or 
 more than the entire increase of the onlinary 
 , expenditine. So, leaving out the Indian 
 ■ grants, which, I think, I may fairly (wsumu 
 to bo to a large extent beyond tho control of 
 any administration, if wo are t ^ adopt the 
 principle of feeding rather than Aghting thu 
 Indians in the Northwest — a policy which 
 everyone will say is a wise policy — thun tho 
 ordinary expenditure was actually less by 
 $146,540 in 1883 than in 1875-76! Then I 
 I take tho collection of tho revenue and I find 
 1 the increase in that was '5l,853,5UJ, of which 
 $1,773,641 was for '^ost office and public 
 I works alone, the revenue from public works 
 and post office increasing during that period 
 i $546,126 more than the expenditure. 
 \ This leaves an increase for the 
 j collection of all tho other revenues of the 
 I country, outside of the two items of post office 
 I and public works, of $79,875, the increa.sed 
 I reveniie from those other sources Itaving been 
 I $10,887,296, while tho debt and subsidies in- 
 I creased no less than $1,731,172. That is the 
 j position ot a comparison between 1875-76, 
 ' when hor.. gentlemen were in the full swing 
 ! of their administration of the affairs of this 
 i country and 1883, which was an exceptional 
 j year of great prosperity, when, by a policy 
 accepted by parliament, and accepted by tho 
 (.'ountry, the government were generous in 
 their contribution to the public service, espe- 
 cially to public works, for the bcaetit of the 
 people at large. (Cheers.) 
 
 THE INCREASB IN THE PUBLIC DEBT. 
 
 But we are told that the debt has increased. 
 Well, the debt has increased. It increa ed, 
 in seven years, from 1867 to 1874, by 
 $32,596,323, or an annual average increase of 
 $4,370,903. I do not think the hon. gentle- 
 man can complain of that. Tl.at increase had 
 taken place when he went to England to 
 make his loan. When he issued his fan. :>us 
 circular to the investors, to the money-lend- 
 ers of England, I find that ho makes this 
 reference to that increased debt : — 
 
 "The whole of this debt has been Incurred 
 for legitimate objects of public utility. Though 
 many of the public works have so far yielded 
 but a small revenue In comparison with tho 
 Interest on their cost, much of the exi>ondlture 
 has been regarded by the Imperial and Domin- 
 ion governments as necessary, not In the inter- 
 ests of Caniida exclusively, but also on national 
 ? round?, so much so that at various times tho 
 mperial Government has sanctioned guaran- 
 tees In aid of their construction to the extent 
 of £8,400.000." 
 
 That was the testimony of the hon. gentle- 
 man as to that first increase of debt. (Cheers.) 
 
22 
 
 H 
 1 
 
 i 
 
 'I 
 
 Then the hon. gentleman came into office, 
 and during the period from 1874 to 1879 the 
 public debt of this country incre'.sed $34,- 
 66f, 223, or in five years an average of 
 $6,933,040. I know that the hon. gentleman 
 tells ufi that he is not responsible for that in- 
 crease. I know that he tells us that that in- 
 crease was necessary because of obligations 
 which they inherited from the party who pre- 
 ceded them in office. 
 
 Sir Richard Cartwhight — Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. White — I understand the hon. gen- 
 tleman to concur in thai view of his argu- 
 ment. Now, sir, what was the obligation 
 which they inherited ? Was it the deepening 
 of the canals ? Why, that was a matter un- 
 der the Confederation Act made contingent <^n 
 the condition of the finances ot this country, 
 aiid, when those gentleman came into office, 
 f.o far were they from assumint^ the obliga- 
 tions incurred by their predecessors that they 
 actually cancelled the tenders sent in for the 
 works on the Welland -anal snd advertised 
 on their own responsibility for new tenders 
 ibr the construction of that work. (Cheers.) 
 It does not, therefore, lie with them to tell 
 us that they inherited that responsibility 
 from the party who preceded them. They 
 might, u.ider the Act of Confederation, if 
 they thought the finances of the country did 
 not justify it, have postponed indefinitely 
 the enlrirgement of the canals as far as any 
 obligations were concerned. Then they spy 
 the Pacific Railway was an obligation. If 
 60, it was an obligation that we should 
 within ten years, or as near that as possible, 
 construct a railway to connect British 
 Columbia with the railway system 
 of old Canada. Did they regard 
 that as an obligation ? Did, they, when the 
 first contrac*^. was proposed to be let in 1880, 
 regard it as an obligation ? No ; they voted 
 in a body against it, declaring that the mea- 
 sure of the obligation was the financial con- 
 dition of the country. (Cheers.) Therefore, 
 they assumed that responsibility of their own 
 motion which +hey might have left over, if 
 they h(vd chosen so to do, assuming, of course 
 that the position they took in 1880 was a 
 correct position. Sir, there were no obliga- 
 tious incurred by those hon. gentleman, the 
 responsibility of which, in view of what has 
 taken place since they left office, they are in a 
 position to throw upon their predecessors in 
 office. They assume those responsibilities 
 themselves, they entered upon the construc- 
 tion of those public works, they incurred that 
 debt, of their own Motion, and having incur- 
 
 red it they ought not in all fairness, in all 
 reasonable decency, to cor/i -^ down and say|: 
 " We had to do this because the obligation 
 was thrown upon us by our predecessors in 
 office." (Cheers.) No, sir, they increased 
 the debt by an annual addition to it of $7,- 
 000,000, in round figures during the period 
 they were in office. Well, hon. gentlemen 
 on this side of the house came in, and they 
 have increased the debt from that time to the 
 present by $15,476,547, or an annxial average 
 increase of $3,869,037. But, when you 
 come to deal with the progress of 
 the interest charges — which after 
 all is the measure of the burden of this debt 
 pon t\ .^ people of this country — you will 
 find that the condition is much more favour- 
 able to hon. gentlemen on this side of the 
 house. From 1867 to 1874 the annual in- 
 crease in the interest charge was $207,715 per 
 annum; Irom IL'74 to 1879 it was $222,345 
 per annum — and I am now taking the net in- 
 ter st charge not the gross interest 
 charge. From 1879 to 1883 there has 
 been an actual decrease in the net interest 
 charge on the people of this countiy of $60,- 
 866. So that if, since the conservative party 
 came into office there has been an increase in 
 the debt, that increase, measured by the an- 
 nual burden, measured by the interest charge 
 — whicli is the true measure of its burden on 
 the people of this countiy — has actually de- 
 creased $60,866. (Cheers.) Then, sir, if 
 you take the gross interest charge, "c find 
 this: Tliatfrom 1867 to 1874 the interest 
 charge increased $181,595 per annum ; from 
 1874 to 1879 it was $279,067 per annum ; 
 whiie from 1879 to 1883 it was $82,035 per 
 annum. (Cheeru.) Then, sir, what has 
 been our position with regard to 
 
 EXPENDITURE UPON CAPITAL ACCOUNT? 
 
 The debt has been increased, we admit, but 
 what have we been 'oing with it ? 
 Why, sir, I find that the expenditure 
 on capital account in excess of the ad- 
 ditional debt from 1867 1874, was 
 $13,778,037; from 1874 to 1879 the addition 
 to the debt in excess of the expenditure on 
 capital account, was $6,720,083, that is to 
 say, those hon. gentlemen added that much 
 to the public debt for carrying on the ordi- 
 jiury affairs of the administration of the coun- 
 try, and not in public works in any sense 
 whatever. From 1879 to 1883, we have spent 
 on capital account in excess of the increased 
 debt $22,463,139. That is the position in 
 whicli the two parties stand in relation to the 
 
03 
 
 debt of this countrj'. (Caeers.) I have not 
 said a word here as to the point which the 
 hon. gentleman disputes, namely that of the 
 increase of that earlier consen'ative period, 
 a sum of upwards of $14,000,000 was a mere 
 matter of account, was an assumption of the 
 debts of the piovinces, which passed from the 
 people in the several provinces to the people 
 in the Dominion — I have not dealt with that 
 at all ; I have assumed the whole. There is 
 an iucrease in the public debt which has been 
 made by both parties, and the result, I think, 
 is one of which the conservative party need 
 not be in any way ashamed. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 THE QUESTION OF SURPLD8ES. 
 
 Bu*, sir, it has been said that the policy of 
 the present government has been to pile up 
 surpluses, and we are told tha^ it has involv- 
 ed a terrific tax on the people. "Well, sir, the 
 hon. gentleman did not always hold it to be 
 a bad thing to have a surplus. I can re- 
 member what he said in that famous circular 
 — a circular which is invaluable as a 
 model in presenting the position of this 
 country to the people outside. We find that the 
 $13,000,000 of surplus that occurred during 
 the earlier years of confederation, was not 
 then regarded by him as in the slightest de- 
 gree a ground of complaint ; on the contrary, 
 it was presented to the people of England as 
 a thing we ought to be proud of, as an evi- 
 dence of the increased stability and the 
 greater credit of the people of Canada. Here 
 is what the hon gentleman said : — 
 
 *' Tho revenue has shown a continuous sur- 
 plus during each year since confederation in 
 1867, although It has In the Interval been 
 charged with much heavy expenditure of an 
 exceptional kind. The eight years since con- 
 federation, therefore, exhibit an aggregate sur- 
 plus of £2,443,111 (sterling), not including the 
 sinking fund, which has been partially applied 
 in redemption of debt and partly expended on 
 new 'vorks.'' 
 
 That wa? the statement of the hon. gentle- 
 man as to the position of a surplus at that 
 time, when he was able to go to England and 
 preesnt to the people there the fact that dur- 
 ing the preceding six or seven years there 
 had boea this large surplus in the public 
 treasury. (Cheers.) But when we come to 
 deal with the question of the 
 
 COST OF COLLECTING THE REVENUE, 
 
 we find another significant contrast. The 
 hon. gentleman tells us that the country has 
 been extravagantly managed, and that they 
 Would have managed it much more cheaply. 
 Well, let me give one illustration, one con- 
 trast, of the manner in which the revenue 
 
 MAR collected under their administration and 
 under the present one. Take the cost of cus- 
 toms collection. I find that in 1878 the cus- 
 toms receipts were $12, 795,093, \\hile in 1883 
 they were $23,172,309. 1 find that the cost 
 of collection in 1878 was $714,527, while the 
 cost of collection in 1883 was 5757,245: that 
 is, our revenue increased during those years 
 no less than 81 per cent., while the cost of 
 collection increased only per cen:. (Cheers.) 
 Now, sir, in reference to that cost of collec- 
 tion, it is to be remembered that in the five 
 provinces east of Manitoba, namely, Ontario, 
 Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and 
 Prince Edward Island, the number of ports- 
 increased during that period from 295 to 
 314; and yet the cost of collecting the 
 revenue in that increased number of 
 ports was decreased by $9,919. Then, sir, 
 the increase in the cost of collection in Mani- 
 toba was $29,770, but the revenue increased 
 during that period from $223,530 to $1,764,- 
 806. In the Northwest Territories the in- 
 creased cost of collection was $4,121, while 
 the revenue increased from $19,098 to $68,- 
 165 during the same period. The outside 
 service in the customs department, namely, 
 the experts which have been employed, and 
 the detective service, which have been ren- 
 dered necessary by the changes that were 
 made in the tariff, was $12, 526. Now let me 
 give you another contrast: In 1873-74 the 
 impoilswere $128,213,532, the duties were 
 $14,421,883, and the cost of collecting was 
 $567,765; while in the year 1878-79 the 
 the imports were $93,081,787, the duty col- 
 lected was $12,795,093, and the cost 
 of collecting was $714,527 ; or, m 
 other words, during the period that 
 hon. gentlemen were in office, when 
 they were economically managing the affairs 
 of the country, when they were establishing 
 for themselves that claim to condemn the al- 
 leged extiavagance on the part of their oppo- 
 nents, I find that the imports decreased 28 
 percent, the revenue decreased 11 percent., 
 while the cost of collection increased 27 per 
 cent. (Cheers.) 
 
 ALLEGED ENHANCED COST OF GOODS — 800 AU. 
 
 But, sir, we are told by the hon. gentleman 
 that there has been increased taxation to the 
 people of this country in another form — that 
 we have enormously increased the ta vtion of 
 Canada by the increase^ cost of goods as a re- 
 sult c the protective duties which have been 
 imposed. The hon. gentleman estimated this 
 loss to the country at $50,000,000 ; I wonder 
 
24 
 
 -'•';% 
 
 I 
 
 he did not make it $100,000,000. Let me 
 give the house one or two points which the 
 hon. gentleman made with respect to it. 
 T»ke first the article cf sugar. The hon. 
 gentleman said : — 
 
 " To-day, I am Informed by men of high 
 .standing In the trade, you could put down at 
 Montreal, free of duty, those classes of sugar 
 which are most in demand in Canada at the 
 rate of $5 I?' 100 fts. I am in'.ormed by tliose 
 gentlemen also that if taey buy those sugars 
 from Canadian refineries they have to pay $8 
 ^ 100 fts., jeing an excess of !$o. We consumed 
 in 1883 152,000,000 fts. of sugar. I will allow 
 a large percentage, 12,000,000, to go into the 
 accounts for the waste In converting that into 
 such sugar as the people require: but every 
 man can see for himself that If you could buy 
 that sugar at 5 cents ^ lb., duty free, and are 
 obliged to pay 3 cents more to the refiner, what 
 the cost to the iieople of Canada that extra 3 
 cents ^ lb. Is. It Is $4,500,000. Of that sum 
 ^2,467,000 went into the treasury and ,$1,500,- 
 000 was l05t." 
 
 Tliat is the staten^ent of the hon. gentleman. 
 Now, sir, I do not know to what kind of 
 sugar the lion, gentleman refers as being that 
 consumed by the great majority of the people 
 ot Canada, whether he refers to granulated or 
 yellows. If he refers to yellows, the price in 
 Montreal to day, and it has been so for some 
 little time, varies from 5^ cents to 7} cents, 
 the latter being almost as pale and bright as 
 granulated sugar. And granulated sugar in 
 Montreal to-day is worth 8^ cents per lb. 
 But we are not left to smmise in regard to 
 the prices of sugar : and it is a fortunate 
 thing for us we are not. When the hon. 
 gentlema?! roams into the regions of surmise 
 he is immense ; 300,000,000 or 400,000,000 
 are matters of little consequence to him. 
 But in this natter we are not, as I have said, 
 left to surmise ; we have the actual facts with 
 which we can deal. As to this sugar question 
 generally, I think the hon. gentleman ad 
 mitted that as regards the $1; 500,000, which 
 he said was lost, some little Jvantage ac- 
 crued to the country from the increased ship- 
 ping brought to the port of Montreal. Well, 
 Mr. Speaker, that is an important tactor 
 ill the trade of this country. If we can 
 build up a trade with the sugar-producing 
 countries of the world, giving to them 
 in re'^^urn for their sugak', fish and 
 other products we may have to send them, we 
 have accomplished a great deal towards pro- 
 moting the trade of the Dominion. I find 
 that one of the results ot ' his policy has been 
 that, while in 1878 .we imported from the 
 West Indies only 7,500,000 lbs., and from 
 Brazil nil, (we had been doing a little import 
 trade with South American ports, but it had 
 
 dwindled away to nothing), we imported in 
 1883 from the West Indies 72,750,000 lbs., 
 and from Brazil HG, 886, 052 lbs.— a branch of 
 trade which every one will admit is of very 
 considerable importance. (Cheers.) That is 
 to say, we imported f»om those two countries 
 85 per cent, of »Mir entire import. We im- 
 ported 8 J per cent, from the East Indies, 
 China, etc., and 6 A per cent- from Great Bri- 
 tain and the United States, this being refined. 
 Now, sir, in 1878 the total impoit was 108,- 
 951,920 lbs., the .ty on which was $2,567,- 
 803. Of the total quantity imported 95,154,- 
 5'.0 lbs. were above No. 13 Dutch standard, 
 and the duty paid was $2,289,840. In 1883 
 the total 'mports reached 156,697,834 lbs., of 
 which 4,283,488 lbs. were abovi: 14 Dutch 
 standard — the line being increased to 14 in- 
 stead of 13 as was the case under the policy 
 of hon. gentlemen opposite. The total duty 
 paid was $2,666,763, of which $108,407, was 
 for sugar above 14 Dutch standard. As to 
 the question of the enormous protection 
 given to the refiiicrs under the present 
 rate of duty, let me point out 
 this fact ; last year, on the average price in 
 New York, less drawback, $5.70 per 100 lbs, 
 the duty by the Cartwright tariff would be 
 $2.43. The actual duty on the refined sugar 
 imported was $2.50. So that the protectfon 
 we have had in connection with this duty 
 amounts really to only 12^ per cent, i ven- 
 ture to say there is no industry in Canada 
 with so small a protection, whenyo- come to 
 consider the relation of the raw material to 
 the refined article, as has the sugar industry. 
 (Hear, hear.) As to the question of prices 
 and what we have paid for the sugar : The 
 average price in New York, that is to Ameri- 
 can consumers, Mas $8.64, Th3 average price 
 in Montreal for the same period was. $8.40 ; 
 so that the people of Canada were actually 
 obtaining their sugar on that ba»i8 at 24 cts. 
 per 100 lbs, or nearly a quarter of a cent per 
 lb less than the people of the United Stales 
 were paying for sugar ».om American refiner- 
 ies. But taking it under the Cartwright ta- 
 riff, with duty and charges added and draw- 
 backs deducted, the average would have been 
 $8.93 i while in Montreal, as I have said,the 
 actual avpi-age was $8.40, or a difference in 
 favoiu of the present tarift" to the consumer, 
 as compared with the tariff of hon. gentlemen 
 opposite of 53 cents per 100 lbs, or a little 
 overonehalf cent per lb, (Cheers.) Taking 
 the consumption at 140,000,000 lbs, 
 the hon. gentleman's own figures, as 
 representing the refined sugar provided for 
 
 m 
 
orted in 
 
 00 lbs., 
 
 ranch of 
 of very 
 That is 
 loimtries 
 
 We im- 
 Indies, 
 
 reat Bri- 
 
 refined. 
 was 108,- 
 
 S2,567,. 
 
 95,154,- 
 dtandard, 
 
 In 1883 
 U4 lbs., of 
 14 Dutch 
 to 14 in- 
 ;he policy 
 otal duty 
 ,407, was 
 •d. As to 
 protection 
 present 
 >int out 
 re price in 
 er 100 lbs, 
 f would be 
 tined sugar 
 protection. 
 
 this duty 
 it, i ren- 
 in Canada 
 Du come to 
 material to 
 r industry. 
 . of prices 
 ugar: The 
 I to Ameri- 
 erago price 
 ivas$8.40 ; 
 •e actually 
 s at 24 cts. 
 a cent per 
 lited Stales 
 ;aa reftner- 
 vv^right ta- 
 l and draw- 
 l have been 
 ,ve said, the 
 [ifference in 
 consumer, 
 , gentlemen 
 5, or a little 
 8.) Taking 
 ),000 lbs, 
 figures, as 
 trovided for 
 
 25 
 
 consumption from the 152,000,000 which were 
 imported last year, we have, as a result of this 
 policy, that instead of paying 2 tc 3 cents per 
 pound more for sugar, as has been strangely 
 stated by hon. gentlemen opposite, we have 
 actually had a sum equivalent to $700,000 
 put into thj pockets of the people as money 
 saved on sugar, compared with what they 
 would have had to pay under the tariff of hon. 
 gentlemen opposite. Or if you take the price 
 in New iork to the conenmer, and in 
 Montreal to the consumer, about which 
 there can be no question, for it is a matter 
 which can be ascertained from lists of current 
 prices, then tlie people of Canada have had 
 the advantage of $350,000 last year over th j 
 people of the United States as the result of 
 our present policy. (Cheers.) 
 
 It being six o' clock, the Speaker left the 
 chair. 
 
 AFTER RECESS. 
 
 Mr. White. — When the house rose I was 
 dealing with the argument of the hon. gen- 
 tleman as to the serious taxation imposed on 
 this country by the extra duties under the 
 national policy, and I had referred to the 
 article of sugar, to which he made special 
 reference, and 1 pointed out what I think is 
 the case, that so far from the national policy 
 having imposed extra taxation on Canada it 
 has really been 8 great advantage to the 
 country even in the matter of cheapness. 
 
 THB POSITION OP THB COTTON INDJ3TRY, 
 
 I come now, sir, to the article of cotton, 
 which, perhaps, is the one that the national 
 policy has more developed than an}- other 
 industry in the country. I am quite aware, 
 Mr. Speaker, that there has been during the 
 latter part of the last year a depression in 
 the cotton industry in this country. That 
 depression has been in common with the de- 
 pression in the same industry in England 
 and in the United States. Here it has arisen 
 from causes which were almost certain to 
 produce a depression sooner or later, and the 
 effect of it has been to cause methods to be 
 atlopted by the cotton manufacturers which, 
 I believe, will render less likely a depression 
 of that kind in ihe future. When you re- 
 member, sir, that as late as October, 1882, 
 the cotton mills were unable to supply the 
 demand in this country, that they were un- 
 able to fill the orders that were coming into 
 them, I think you will agree with me that 
 the collapse — if one may use that expres- 
 sion — was more sudden than most persons 
 anticipated. But during that time two- 
 
 thirds of the cottcu mills of Canada were 
 runn'.ng on ordinary- grey cottons. It was 
 one of the most natural things in the 
 world that upon an industrj- of that 
 kind springing into existence, the 
 manufacturers should first produce 
 that particular class of goods which was cer- 
 tain to find the readiest market. During last 
 fall the cotton mill owners met together and 
 resolved to lessen by a considerable propor- 
 tion the production of their mills. Three 
 mills, and only three, closed down alto- 
 gether, and they closed only for a month. 
 The Hudon mill, it is true, closed for some 
 three weeks longer, not because of any ques- 
 tion of depression, not beciuse of a want of 
 a market for the goods they were producing, 
 but because of the condition of the water in 
 the St. Lav/rence River. But, sir, in spite of 
 that depression in the cotton industry, one 
 cannot but feel that an enormous develop- 
 ment in that industry has taken place in 
 Canada In 1878 there were seven cotton 
 mills in this countiy. At this momeni there 
 are no less than twenty, and if you take the 
 capacitv of the mills into account, these 
 twenty are equivalent to thirty of as great 
 capacity as the seven which were in existence 
 in 1878. [Hear, hear.] The mills are now 
 adopting the plan of producing different 
 varieties of cotton. Instead of producing as 
 they did before, almost exclusively grey cot- 
 tons, they are going into, in some cases, forty 
 or fifty different classes of cotton goods ; 
 and I arr glad to know that an industry 
 which has recently been established — or 
 rather is about being established, for it has 
 not yet commenced work — in Magog, that is 
 a print factory, instead of undertaking to pro- 
 duce the cloth, as originally intended, is go- 
 ing to take v. e cloth from the other mills and 
 become simply a print factory, and that 
 alone. In that way, I think the cotton in- 
 dustry has before it no such gloom> prospect 
 as a great many person are disposed to think, 
 but that with the conditions which at present 
 exist, with the low prices at which cottons 
 are being sold, with the greater facilities for 
 production which have resulted from the es- 
 tablishment of th' se mills, in the early future 
 the cotton industiy will resume the prosperity 
 which belongs to it, and which attached to it 
 during the earlier period of its recent deve- 
 lopment. (Hear, hear.) 
 
 COST OF COTTON GOODS. 
 
 But, sir, in this question of the price of 
 goods, if the argument of hon. gentlemen op- 
 
26 
 
 iyi 
 
 poBite be a correct argument, then ordinary 
 grey cheap cottons in Canada ought to be at 
 least somewhere about 30 or 35 per cent, 
 dearer than in the United States or Great 
 Britain. In order to establish his argument 
 that this tariff has been an extra tax on the 
 people, he must first establish that proposi- 
 tion. Well, sir, has that been the fact ? I 
 have here a statement in which the American 
 prices av". taken from the New York 
 Economist of January 12th, 1884, and the 
 Canadian prices are taken at the mills, and I 
 find that the average prices of goods in Can- 
 ada have actually been just about the same as 
 they were at the American mills. The 
 American price for Whitinsville 33 inch if, 
 6 J, for 33 inch Canadian 6^ cents ; for Ameri- 
 can Phelham 35^ inch, the price 
 was 6^, for 36 inch Canadian 7| ; for Ameri- 
 can Hero 35^ inch, the price was 7 cents ; 
 for 36 inch Canadian the price was 8^ ; for 
 35J inch American Whitinsville the price was 
 7J ; for Canadian 36 inch the price was 8 J ; 
 for American Dwight Anchor 36 inch the 
 price was 9 cents ; the same width Canadian 
 1 cents. For Langdon G. B. 36 inch the 
 price was 10 cents ; for 36 inch Canadian the 
 price was 11 cents. But, sir, when you come 
 to tha weight of the goods— which after all is 
 a very impoiiant factor— taking the goods by 
 the pound, I find that the average of the 
 United States cottons was 23 32-lOOc. per 
 pound, and of the Canadian 22 31-lOOc., so 
 that giving the weight of tht; goods, the 
 price of these cottons was actually lower in 
 Canada than in the United States, the prices 
 being at the mills in both places. (Cheers.) 
 Now, it must be remembered in the discussion 
 of this quosi i, that we derive our revenue 
 from customs duty under any tariff we may 
 adopt. I do not understand thathon. gentle- 
 men opposite propose to adopt free trade in the 
 sense in which it is adopted in England. I 
 do not understand that they propose to abol- 
 ish all customs duties, and adopt the principle 
 of direct taxation in order to raise a revenue 
 for the purposes of government. Taking a 
 17J pev cent, tariff, which was the tariff when 
 hon. gentlemen opposite were in power, we 
 have a right to add, on their principle, that 
 17J per cent, to the cost of cotton goods com- 
 ing into Canada, and if then we can show 
 that the goods are cheaper than in the United 
 States, their argument as to the taxation in- 
 volved in this tariff is entirely swept away. 
 
 Some hon. members— Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. White — The hon. gentleman seems to 
 doubt that. Does he pretend to say that, 
 
 adding 17^ percent, to the cost of the goods 
 in Canada, and with a 35 per cent, duty, 
 which does not add more than 17J percent, 
 to their cost in tins country, the cost to the 
 people of Canada has been increased by the 
 increased duty ? Nothing of the sort. On 
 the contrary, the result of the larger market 
 secured to the Canadian mills by this policy, 
 the result of the investment of capital in 
 those miFo, the result of the market being ta 
 a greater extent, to an enormously greater 
 extent, secured to those mills in Canada, has 
 been to reduce the cost by the larger output 
 of the different mills. Everyone knows as a 
 principle, which is perpetual, which never 
 varies in regard to manufactures, chat 
 the larger the output the les» 
 the price at which the article can be 
 produced, and by securing al! those different 
 cotton mills, by having some thirty mills 
 — taking capacity into account — instead of 
 seven in Canada, and with a reasonable as- 
 surance of a market for those thirty mills, in- 
 stead of for the seven, the natural result is, 
 that we get the goods a great deal cheaper 
 than we have had them under the policy of 
 the hon. gentlemen opposite, and as a matter 
 of fact, we have the goods at a lowev price 
 thj,n prevailed under the policy of the hon. 
 gentlemen opposite. Let me give you a fact, 
 which can be verified by anyone who choosea 
 to enquire into the matter, as to the cost of 
 cotton goods in September, 1878, as com- 
 pared with the cost now. The price of raw cot- 
 ton in September, 1878 was llf cents per lb., 
 andth^ cost of cotton goods, 3. 70 yards to the 
 lb., was 7| cents, or 28.67 cents per lb. •, 
 while to-day — when I my to-day, I mean the 
 commencement of this year, to which these 
 figures apply — raw cotton is 11 cents a lb., 
 and cotton cloth 3.35 yards to the lb., is 22| 
 cents a lb. ; so that there is only three-quar- 
 ters of a cent difference in the price of mw 
 cotton at these two periods, while the cost of 
 ordinary cotton cloth has been reduced from 
 28.67 cents per lb., to 22f cents per lb. That 
 was the result of the larger output by these 
 mills. (Cheers.) 
 
 COST OF LOCOMOT'VKS. 
 
 Tnen, sir, there is another article to which 
 I desire to refer as illustrating my point ; 
 and I refer to it because an in- 
 cident has recently occurred in 
 Canada which gives an undeniable proof 
 that the duty has not as a general thing been 
 paid by the consumer. I refer to the cost of 
 locomotives, as shown in a contract recently 
 
le goods 
 ,. duty, 
 >er cent, 
 st to the 
 by the 
 art. On 
 market 
 8 policy, 
 apital in 
 being ta 
 ■ greater 
 ada, has 
 r output 
 10 w 8 as a, 
 ch never 
 es, chat 
 le less 
 can be 
 different 
 rty mills 
 instead of 
 nabie as- 
 mills, in- 
 result is, 
 1 cheaper 
 policy of 
 s a matter 
 wev price 
 the hon. 
 I'ou a fact, 
 ho chooses 
 he cost of 
 5, as com- 
 of raw cot- 
 its per lb., 
 irds to the 
 3 per lb. i 
 [ mean the 
 hich these 
 mts a lb., 
 lb., is 221 
 thiee-quar- 
 ice of raw 
 the cost of 
 luced from 
 rib. That 
 Lit by these 
 
 27 
 
 le to which 
 ny point ; 
 e an in- 
 urred in 
 able proof 
 thing been 
 ) the cost of 
 act recently 
 
 made by the Intercolonial Railway with the 
 Kingston Locomotive Works, in connection 
 with which very disgraceful and uuw!\rrant- 
 able attacks have been made upon yourself, 
 Mr. Speaker. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, what 
 are the facts with regard to that contract ? 
 The hon. member for Soutli Huron, the ex- 
 Finance Minister, will know something about 
 this, for, if I mistake not, he is a shareholder 
 in that company ; and the hon. member for 
 Kingston will know something about it, for, 
 if I mistake not, he is a director in that com- 
 pany. Tenders were asked, if I remember 
 rightly, for fifteen locomotives of a certain 
 class, from the United States as well as from 
 €anada. The lowest tender was from the 
 Grant Locomotive Works, for $10,900. Now, 
 it we add 15 per cent, duty to that — and hon. 
 gentlemen opposite would regard that as the 
 very perfection of a lovr revenue tariff — the 
 eo-jt of those locomotives brought i:?to Canada 
 would be $12,535 each. The tender ot the 
 Kingston locomotive works was $11,300, or 
 $1,235 less than the article could be brought 
 for from the United States, with 15 per cent, 
 duty paid on it. (Cheers.) Then there were 
 four locon otives required of a different class. 
 The Cook Locomotive and Machine Company, 
 an American company, made the lowest ten- 
 der, which wa.«» $11 , 000 at the shop, which, with 
 a duty of 15 per cent, added, would give 
 $12,650 as the price in Canada. The Phob- 
 nix \,orks, of St. John, N.B., built the loco- 
 motives, and delivered them, for $11,300 or 
 $1,350 less than the price for which they 
 could have been imported, with the duty paid 
 on them. Not only was that the fact, but 
 there is another rather remarkable circum- 
 stance in connection with this matter. There 
 were four American locomotive works com- 
 peting for this contract ; and the average 
 price, according to tender, at their shops was 
 $11,250, while the Kingston works tendered 
 at 511,300; so that the difference between 
 the cost of these locomotives at the shop in 
 Kingston and at the shop in the United 
 States was only $50 each in favour of the 
 American manufacturer. And yet hou. gen- 
 tlemen will tell us that the 25 per cent, duty 
 charged on locomotives coming into the coun- 
 try represents a *'ix on the people of this 
 country. (Cheexd.) The hon. gentleman 
 knows that under the tariff which existed be- 
 fore, these works which had been in operation 
 had practically ceased to operate altogether ; 
 they were dead — practically dead. But 
 a new company influenced by the conviction 
 that under this tariff' they would at least 
 
 have a chance of the market in Canada, 
 bought the old establishment out, with the 
 result that I have just pointed out, that to- 
 day we are getting locomotives in Canadu 
 within $50 of what they could be got for in 
 shops in the United States, or, in the con- 
 tract to which I have referred, for $23,92.''» 
 altogether less than we would have been 
 compelled to pay had we bought them in the 
 United States and brought them in and paid 
 15 per cent, duty upon them. (Cheers.) 
 Now, sir, these particulars — I do not in- 
 tend to give others, although I could do so — 
 I think certainly establish that the effect has 
 not been to increase the price to the con- 
 sumer, but they show us what has been 
 
 THE VALDE OP THE NATIONAL POLICY 
 
 to this country. I ventur ^d to say at the 
 oommencement of my remarks this afternoon, 
 that the hon. gentleman had, because there 
 were certain thiL/s that we could not control, 
 taken the ground that we should not deal 
 with those that we could control. What was 
 it that deepened most seriously the 
 depression that existed in this country 
 in 1877, 1878. and the esrly part of 
 lb 79? It was the fact that this country 
 was being made a slaughter market for the 
 surplus productions on the other side of the 
 line. Everyone knows that at times of de- 
 pression manufacturers are most anxious to 
 find a market anywhere for their surplus 
 products ; and in order, if it may be, that they 
 may keep up the price in their own market 
 for the remainder, they will give the foreign 
 market the article at a lower price. We are 
 told that this is better for the man in the 
 foreign country. So it may be for ^he mo- 
 ment, while the depression lasts ; but the 
 moment that depression is past, and things 
 get back to the position which I think we 
 may call the normal position, when the ne- 
 cessity of sacrificing the surplus product dis- 
 appears altogether, then we find that the 
 people who were foolish enough to suppose 
 that it was an advantage to get this surplus 
 product thrown into the country as a slaugh- 
 ter market, have to pay a higher price for the 
 goods and the labour of a foreign country, in- 
 stead of getting the same article in their own 
 country, produced by the labour of their own 
 country, and at a lower price than they could 
 get it for outside. (Cheers.) I venture to 
 say that at no time since the national policy 
 has been established, has it been of more 
 value to the manufacturers of Canada 
 han it is at this moment, Already, as 
 
28 
 
 everyone in business knows, owing 
 to the depression on the other side 
 of the line, there is a disposition manifested 
 to repeat the process that went on in 1877 
 and 1878. Were the low tariff such as we 
 had then, in existence to-day, our manufac 
 turers, everyone of them, would either he 
 cldHedup, or comiielled so to work a.-> to 
 realize no profit, practically, whatever. 
 (Hear, hear.) L. the policy now in opera- 
 tion is, at least to a greater extent than the 
 old policy, preserving this market to the 
 Canadian manufacturer, is preventing that 
 slaughter to the extent to which it went on 
 formerly, though not to an entire extent, and 
 in that way is doing more for manufacturers 
 at this time than it has done at any time 
 since it has ' 3n in operation. It is precisely 
 in times of ujpression that a policy of this 
 kind is of most value to a countrv, and not 
 of least value, and he misunderst^mds the 
 object and the advantage of this policy, who 
 ventures to say that because you liave depres- 
 sion you should therefore abandon the policy 
 which lessens and mitigu,tes that depression, 
 and prevents it becoming wliat it would, be- 
 come, under other circumstances. (Cheers.) 
 
 cartwkight's plea fou socialism. 
 
 Then the hon. gentleman proceeded to in- 
 dulge in a screech on behalf of socialism. He 
 told us we were building up in this country 
 two great classes, he told us v,e were build- 
 ing up a class of subsidized millionaires, and 
 in so doing were creating, as all history 
 proved, according to him, a class of paupers 
 on the other side ; that wherever, as he put 
 it, there was great wealth in the hands of in- 
 dividuals, there was to be found great poverty 
 on the part of the masiies. And we Avere told 
 that that was one of tlu; results of our 
 policy, and that we were not only doing 
 this, but doing it to an extent which would 
 justify socialism in this country. (Hear, hear. ) 
 It ocurred to me as somewhat strange that the 
 hon. gentleman should close this part of his 
 speech by a statement of that kind, when 
 during the whole of the earlier part of that 
 speech, he had been telling us that the money 
 put into manufactures had all been lost, that 
 these industries had bee" unproductive, and 
 that instead of being millionaires those who 
 had sunk their millions in manufactures had 
 lost their money. Both those statements 
 cannot be true ; but what is true is that this 
 policy is enabling men who have a business 
 capacity and capital and who understand their 
 "work to go on and reasonably prosper j it 
 
 enables them also to afford employment in 
 this country for the working people of this 
 country, which would not be afforded under 
 the policy of the hon. gentleman. (Cheers.) 
 
 THE ALL20EO EXODUS. 
 
 Now I come to a point to which, I am bound 
 \ to say, 1 very deeply regret the hon. gentle- 
 man fouad it necessary to refer in the way he 
 1 did. This countrv has some difficulties to 
 
 1 
 
 ; contend against. We are just on the high- 
 ■ way to prosperity — I am not speaking now 
 ; of the national policy, but of the natural pro- 
 sperity which a great country like this is al- 
 ^ most certain to achieve for itself. We are 
 I just on the highway to that prosperity, if we 
 [ are only true to ourselves But we have ex- 
 ; cited the jealousy of rivals outside of this 
 ! country and ot some enemies within it, and 
 it is a matter of the gravest regret that 
 an hon. gentleman occupying the position 
 ! which the ex-Finance Minister does occupy, 
 i should have devoted so much energy, so 
 ; much study and so much labour to the pro- 
 ! duction of statistics in order to prove that 
 this country, if the same conditions ontinue, 
 
 last five 
 depopu- 
 
 which, he says, have existed for th. 
 years, would become absolutely 
 ! lated within the next ten or twenty jears. I 
 ^ am bound to say that was not a fair, I am 
 1 bound to say that was not — I shall not use 
 ! the word patriotic, for hon. gentlemen oppo- 
 i site do not like it, — but it was not a true 
 position for the hon. gentleman to take. 
 ] (Hear, hear.) He has been at the trouble of 
 I getting from his friends all over the country 
 municipal and school statistics and every- 
 thing of that kind for the purpose of showing 
 I that this country is practically becoming de- 
 I populated, and, when he finds the census 
 stands in his way, he says the census is 
 ! fraudulent, is not to be believed, is utterly 
 ; worthless as a guide to the conditions of this 
 country. Well, what do we find? The hon. 
 gentleman selected one or two counties in 
 this country. He selected your own county, 
 Mr. Speaker, awd one or two others, and he 
 said these counties are becoming depopulated, 
 and therefore this whole country is becoming 
 depopulated. No other fair inference can be 
 drawn from what he said but that he wanted 
 to create this impression. But what do I 
 find in the 86 electoral divisions of the 
 Province of Ontario ? for he dealt only with 
 that province 1 During the last decennial 
 period the population in 8G divisions in that 
 province increased not less than 320,000 peo- 
 ple. That was not a decrease ; that did not 
 
)yment in 
 
 )ie of this 
 
 dot' under 
 
 (Cheers.) 
 
 am bound 
 )n. gentle- 
 lie way he 
 culties to 
 the high- 
 ing now 
 iitural pro- 
 this is al- 
 We are 
 ity, if we 
 c have ex- 
 ido of this 
 hin it, and 
 logret that 
 le position 
 oes occupy, 
 energy, so 
 to the pro- 
 prove tliat 
 IS cmtinue, 
 ;hv (ast five 
 ly depopu- 
 ty y ears. I 
 , fair, I am 
 lall not use 
 lemen oppo- 
 not a true 
 ,n to take, 
 le trouble of 
 the country 
 and every- 
 ! of showing 
 ecoming de- 
 the census 
 le census is 
 d, is utterly 
 itions of this 
 ? The hon. 
 counties in 
 own county, 
 liers, and he 
 iepopulated, 
 is becoming 
 ence can be 
 it he wanted 
 what do I 
 sions of the 
 It only with 
 St decennial 
 lions in that 
 320,000 peo- 
 thut did not 
 
 29 
 
 indicate that we were becoming practically 
 depopulated, and, sir, out of the whole of 
 those 8G divisions, there were only 9 con- 
 stituencies in which there had been any de- 
 crease ; and in these constituencies the 
 aggregate decrease was under G,000. Yet, 
 with these facts open to the hon. jientleman, 
 he did not hesitate to give the sanction of 
 his important and liigh position in this coun- 
 try to the statement that we Avere continually 
 losing population, that our country was be- 
 coming in fact dei)opuIated, that it was be- 
 coming a country where we could not hold 
 our •)Wn people, and to which, therefore, the 
 people of other countries would be exceed- 
 ingly foolish to come. (Cheers. ) I remem- 
 ber hearing a statement of this kind made 
 many years ago, and I know in England it 
 did injury to Canada. It was made by !sir 
 Charles Dilke in the House of Commons v. Iieji 
 Mr. McCulloch Torrens brought in his mo- 
 tion for state aid to immigration in 1870. Sir 
 Charles Dilke then made the statement, 
 which he probably took from the speech of 
 some i)erson like the hon. gentleman, who 
 was indiflerent to the effect it might produce 
 on the interests ot the country, that there 
 were more people going from this coiuitry 
 than coming int(j it, that we were actually i 
 becoming dei)oi)ulated. I b»d, at that time, ; 
 the honour of rei)resentiug the I'rovince of 
 Ontario, in England, for the moment, in con- \ 
 nection with emigiation matters, and I had 
 a controversy with Sir Charles Uilke in the ' 
 columns of the London Standard on this | 
 question, and by the testimony of the To- 'i 
 ronto Globt, which, after all, I must say, did ' 
 me every justice in that matter, I was able 
 then, as 1 trust I will be able now, to show 
 there was no ground for the state- 
 ment, but that it was made in the 
 interests of immigration to a foreign 
 country rather than in the interests 
 of immigration to this colony. Tiie hon. 
 gentleman refeired to the depopulation of 
 some of the towns in Canada. Well, what do 
 we find? We lind that, according to the 
 last census and during the decennial period, 
 in forty-three towns, incorporated towns 
 having under j,000 inhabiUints each, in the 
 Province of Ontario, the increase of popula- 
 tion was in the aggregate 32 per cent. ; and 
 we find that in the whole of those forty-three 
 town there were but two in which there was 
 a decrease in population, and that decrease 
 was infinitesimal. (Cheers.) Every one 
 knows that in a new country like this towns 
 spring up at every likely place as railways are 
 
 built, and that when the rt-sult of building a 
 railway does not turn out to be for any par- 
 ticular town precisely what those who, in 
 the first instance, hoi)ed it would be, that 
 town will si.tfer while others near it will 
 grow up and increase. When the one ceases 
 to prosper, the other pros[)ers still more 
 abundantly from the accretion obtained i'voin 
 the losing town. That is a kind of thing 
 that occurs everywhere in a new country. It 
 is no indication of a loss of prestige in the 
 country, nor of a loss of prosperity or a de- 
 crease in population. It is simply one of the 
 incidents connected with the development of 
 a country and of the building up of towns in 
 a country, as the result of railway develop- 
 ment, and is an incident which, as 'everyone, 
 as I have said, who has been an observer of 
 things knows must and does occur perpetu- 
 ally. (Hear, hear.) lu the nineteen towns 
 and cities in the Province of Ontario having 
 over 5,000 inhabitants each there has been 
 an increase of population during the decen- 
 nial period of no less than 40.2 per cent. 
 That was tlie condition of things as to the iu- 
 cr(;ase of population in Ontario during the 
 period to which the hon. gentleman referred. 
 
 THE MOVEMENT OF POl'ULATIO.N. 
 
 It is quite true that people have gone from 
 Canada into the United States ; "it is quite 
 true that we have not been free from that 
 tendency to migration which obtains 
 all over this continent, and which cau.s- 
 ed the State of Vermont, for instance, in the 
 decennial period from 1860 to 1870, to lose in 
 population some 7 per cent., and during the 
 last decennial period to nicrease only one-half 
 of one per cent. ; which caused the State of 
 Maine to be almost stationary-, and a number 
 of the other eastern stiites to increase in noth- 
 ing like the ratio in which the western states 
 increased, as people move on from the east to- 
 wards tl e west. But what do we find on 
 comparing our condition with that of the 
 United States? I propose, in a moment or 
 two, to deal with the argument which the 
 hon. gentleman dealt with, and which is a 
 perfectly tair argument in a way — that we 
 lose population to the nation, while they 
 simply transfer population from one part of 
 the same nation to another. I shall deal with 
 that presently. But, taking the original thir- 
 teen states of the union, I iind that they 
 have lost, of their native population, accord- 
 tng to the last decennial census, 19.08 per 
 cent., while Canada has lost of its native born 
 population 16.47 per cent. (Cheers.) I find 
 
30 
 
 ''■ ! 
 
 
 pill 
 
 'im 
 
 m 
 
 wm : 
 
 that ^even the three states of New 
 York, Ohio and Peimsylvania, have 
 each lost a larger number of their native-born 
 population than Cannda has lost. New York 
 has lost of its native-horn population 1,189,- 
 2G1, Ohio has lost l,0;i4,373, Pennsylvania 
 has lost 788,515, while Canada has lost | 
 7 1 2, 368 . Now two of these, at any rate, Ohio 
 and Pennsylvania, are considerably smaller in | 
 population than Canada, while New York has j 
 probably the same, or perhai)s even a little j 
 more population than^Canada. They are.three i 
 states of the union which are esteemed to be I 
 among the wealthiest and the most prosper- [ 
 ous states of the union. And yet, by that 
 pro(;ess of migration, by that disposition to 
 go westward to seek for new fields, they have 
 eaci of them lost a larger number of their [ 
 native-born population than Canada has lost. ; 
 [Hear, hear. ] Even the western stiites, even 
 those new states, those prairie regions, where 
 people have gone this last thirty or twenty 
 or ten years, as the case may be, and where 
 they are building up for themselves homes, 
 even those states are losing their native 
 population. Minnesota has lost of its native- 
 born population, going into other states of 
 the union, 39,479. Kansas, the paradise of 
 one hon. gentleman opposite, has lost 46,085 
 ot its native-born population. Texas, the 
 paradise of another of the hon. gentlemen j 
 opposite, has lost 44,315. So, even in those j 
 western states that same process has been ] 
 going on of migration to the west. Taking 
 *he percentages of loss of native- 
 born population by states, I find 
 that Rhode Island has lost 17 J per 
 cent., "Wisconsin 15^, Mat.:achusetts 15, 
 New York 23i, Pennsylvania 18j, Connecti- 
 cut 22^, Ohio 32^, Vermont 53j, Maine 28, 
 Illinois 17.85, and Canada 16.47. Of th^se 
 ten states all but two have lost a larger pro- 
 portion of native-born population than the 
 Dominion of Canada has lost. (Hear, hear. ) 
 Under those circumstances, I think I may 
 lairly say that the tendency of migration is 
 not a matter to be wondered at — that it is not 
 a matter which is to be cited as an evidence 
 that this country is not prospering. In the 
 earlier part of the history of Canada we had 
 western counties to which the people could 
 go. Taking three counties with which I am 
 to'.erably familiar, Huron, Bruce and Grey, I 
 find that, in 1851, the aggregate population 
 of those three counties was 35,352 ; in 1871, 
 twenty years afterwards, their aggregate popu- 
 lation was 174,075, and I find that in 1881 
 the aggregate population was 216,873. In 
 
 1870 — well, certainly in 1867 : of that I can 
 speak of my own personal knowledge — those 
 counties, the northern part of Huron, the 
 whole of Bruce, and the western part of 
 Grey, were without railway facilities at all. 
 You could put one point of a compass on 
 Mount Forest and describe a circle of 45 mile 
 radius without touching a railway, and yet, 
 when farmers had to cart their grain as much 
 as 90 miles to get down to Guelph, which 
 was the leading market town at the time — 
 Avhen they had to cart their grain or, during 
 the winter, to take it down in sleighs — dur- 
 ing that time the increase in population was 
 from 35,000 in 1851 to 174,000 in 1871 ; 
 and, if anyone will go through those counties, 
 as I was in the habit of going through them 
 some few years ago in connection with rail- 
 way matters, he will find everywhere, as I, 
 an old Peterborough man, found in the county 
 of Bruce, and on almost every concession 
 line, men who had gone from Peterborough 
 to Bruce to settle there, in order to get cheap 
 lands for themselves and their sous, and to 
 bring their family together, selling their tariu 
 m the older county to get new lands and build 
 up a new home in a newer county. (Cheers). 
 
 CANADIAN EMIGRATIO! . 
 
 But, in process of time, those places go 
 filled up, and tnen people went further west' 
 We had no prairie region to which they could 
 go. They were compelled to go to the West- 
 ern States by an almost unavoidable impulse, 
 to find prairie land on which to settle with 
 their families, to get land comparatively 
 cheaply, and to make new homes for them- 
 selves. They went there, and, as one and 
 another went and wrote back to their friends, 
 that process of emigration, begotten of the 
 best kind of emigration agent, the successful 
 settler in the new district, kept going on ; 
 and that, so far as the Western States were 
 concerned, was one of the causes which 
 brought that emigration to the West- 
 ern States. Take the State of Michi- 
 gan, where no less than 147,000 of 
 the population are native-born Canadians. 
 And who are they ? They are men who have 
 gone there attracted by the lumbering opera- 
 tions which are carried on in that State, men 
 who found in it the opportunity tor labour 
 which they could not get in old Canada al 
 the time. And in the eastern States, where 
 you find large settlements of French-Cana- 
 dians, they went there to get precisely the 
 kind of work which happily many of them 
 are now getting in Canada, in the mills and 
 
31 
 
 liat I can 
 ;c — those 
 uiou, the 
 1 part of 
 .'s at all. 
 mpass on 
 )f 45 mile 
 and yet, 
 as much 
 )h, which 
 le time — 
 or, during 
 glis — dur- 
 ation was 
 in 1871; 
 counties, 
 ugh them 
 with rail- 
 ero, as I, 
 he county 
 concession 
 erhorough 
 get cheap 
 us, and to 
 their tarm 
 } and build 
 (Cheers). 
 
 places go 
 rther west' 
 they could 
 ) the West- 
 le impulse, 
 settle with 
 uparatively 
 for them- 
 18 one and 
 leir friends, 
 ten of the 
 successful 
 going on; 
 States were 
 uses which 
 the West- 
 of Michi- 
 147,000 of 
 Canadians. 
 in who have 
 ering opera- 
 State, mon 
 i tor labour 
 d Canada at 
 ates, where 
 rench-Cana- 
 necisely the 
 my of them 
 ; mills aud 
 
 factories of that country, and thus they swel- 
 led the ])opulation. It is, or should be to us 
 as Canadians, a matter of sincere satisfaction 
 to know that, though they are settled in that 
 foreign country, they have not forgotten that 
 they are Canadians, and that, during recent 
 years, the tendency has been not to go from 
 Canada to the SUvtes, but it has been the mi- 
 gration of Canadians coming back into Can- 
 ada. Last year, if I am corrr^ctly informed, 
 there were about 20,000 of the immigrants 
 who came into the country, according to the 
 statement issued by the immigration depart- 
 ment, who gave themselves in at the port of 
 entry as being returned Canadians. (Ch(!ers.) 
 Then we are opening up in tho Province of 
 Quebec lields which will give an opportunity 
 for these people to come back to their native 
 land. My hon. friend the King of the 
 Gatineau, the hon. member tor Ottawa (Mr. 
 Wright), gave us last year a magnificent de- 
 scription of the country in tht rear part of his 
 county. We know that the Rev. Cure La- 
 belle, that patriot priest, who is doing per- 
 haps more than any other individual man in 
 the Province of Quebec to develop its inter- 
 ests, is bringing back hosts of Canadians, and 
 settling them in parts of the country which 
 a few years ago were looked upon as i)racti- 
 cally uninhabitable. Th(;n, in the Lake St. 
 John region, we have another Northwest 
 opening up for the Province of Quebec, and 
 before many years are over, I believe we will 
 find a development of population in those dis- 
 tricts which were regarded as of no value — 
 when it was thought that Lower Canada, par- 
 ticularly, consisted of a strip of land along the 
 St. Lawrence, and the rear country was looked 
 upon as inhospitable wild — we will find set- 
 tled there hundreds ot thousands of Canadians 
 carving out for themselves happy homes, and 
 among them we will find returned Canadians 
 who were expatriated and went abroad to get 
 work which they could not get at home, but 
 who seized the first opportunity to settle in 
 their own native country when new fields 
 were opened to them. (Loud cheers.) 
 
 THE AMERICAN EXODUS FIGURES. 
 
 Now, sir, he hon. gentleman was good 
 enough to attempt to justify the extraordinary 
 statements which have been made by the 
 officials of the American government as to 
 the emigration from this country. Sir, I am 
 astonished the hon. gentleman should have 
 done it. If he had looked at the simple fact 
 of the number of passengers, as 
 given by the railway comoanies, who 
 3 
 
 can have no motive whatever in 
 deceiving anybody in a matter of this kind, 
 if he had looked at the number of those who 
 cross and of tl)"se who come back, ho would 
 have seen that these statements could not, in 
 the very nature of things, be true or accurate 
 in any sense whatever. (Cheers.) Sir, in 
 another place evidence has recently been 
 taken on this subjeot, and what do we find ? 
 We find a statement made as to how these 
 figures iiave been cooked — and I use the word 
 advisedly — cooked, I believe, as part of the 
 policy which is being adopted, and to which 
 the hon. gentleman who spoke on Friday 
 /light, I am bound to assume as a matter or 
 courtesy, inadvertently lent himself — cooked 
 for the purpose ot injuring the country and of 
 preventing that development which jealous 
 rivals desire should not take place in Canada. 
 (Cheers.) I find that a Mr. Irwin, who was 
 deputy collector at the port thr ough which 
 all this extraordinary emigration takes place, 
 gives this evidenc. . — 
 
 " You asked what method I used and what 
 data I had to go upon in making up the report. 
 It was simply arrived at by taking the four 
 quart itrs of tlie year and allowing more for the 
 summer, spring and fall quarters than for the 
 winter, as the ocean steamers could not land 
 at Quebec or Montreal during the winter. In 
 reply to your onq'.iry as to whether any at- 
 tempt or pretence was made of counting the 
 number of emigrant passengers, I would say 
 that I never, during my term of office, saw or 
 heard of auytliing of the kind being done ." 
 
 That, sir, is the gentleman who is making 
 these returns, and here is his evidence as to 
 how he made them up. Then he goes on to 
 make another statement : — 
 
 " I was told to estimate what I thought was 
 tli'3 number of immigrants that arrived from 
 all trains, &c., for the quarters endirjg March 
 3l8t, June 30th, October "Oth and December 
 81st, as eacli ensuing quarter came round, and 
 was given to unde'st^nd tliat an Increase in 
 each quarter corresponding with the quarter 
 of tlie preceding year was required to be 
 shown. On one occasion my report was sent 
 back to me with instructions to put in more 
 females and children. I asked, jokingly, where 
 I was to get them, and was told to manufac- 
 ture them. In fact the whole matter was treat*- 
 ed as a joke. Some one would say to me, 
 ' Where do you get your facts in the case?' and 
 I would reply that ' figures were facts and 
 could notjie.' " 
 
 Then, sir, we have a statement from another 
 gentleman who was engaged in the work of 
 preparing these statistics which hon. gentle- 
 men opposite are not ashamed to cite on the 
 floor of parliament to the injury of this coun- 
 try : — 
 
 " With regard to the emigrants from Can- 
 ada, the statement was got up from a guess at 
 
32 
 
 the probable number of passengotH on the dif- 
 ferent trulns. Wo would averuKP, Hay, six cars 
 to the train and sixty people to a car, and call 
 half of the whoh; lot Iminlj^rants. At certain 
 Boasonsof the year, when travel waw light, the 
 average would not, <.f course, be put so lilgh, 
 but the who'e thing all through was nothing 
 but guess work. We never attesnpted to make 
 a count of Uie passengers to know whether 
 they were lmmlgrar.«s or not. In fact It was 
 Impossible, as we hati neither time nor men 
 enough to do such a thing. Charles Irwin and 
 myst'lf got up these returns entirely by guess 
 work, an! copying oil" the ulU returns, and be- 
 fore my time 'je helped Crawford and others of 
 my predecessors to get them up. The idea was 
 to make the Immigration look as big as wo 
 could. I know myself of large crowds of men 
 going to the lumber woods in the full who were 
 taken as Immigrants, although we knew per- 
 fectly well they would all go back to Canada 
 in tlie spring. In getting uj? the returns, tiie 
 way we got at the occupations of the immi- 
 grants was this : We took so many thousand 
 persons, and called so many of them carpen- 
 ters, so many blacksmiths, so many pciinters, 
 etc., and the balance we called farmers. In 
 fact, the wliolo thing, from beginning to end, 
 was nothing but the purest guess-work." 
 
 Sir, this is the evidence of the gentlemen who 
 were employed in preparing these very figures 
 which the hon. gentleman on the floor of par- 
 liament, in spite of his position, in spito of 
 the responsibility which he ougut to feol at- 
 taches to every statement he makes, ven- 
 tured to say were to be believed; and he 
 actually went through the country getting 
 municipal and school returns, and returns 
 from some towns that happened not to have 
 prospered the last few years, in order that he 
 might sustain the statements, which, I am 
 bound .to say, are utterly unworthy of cre- 
 dence in view of the manner in which, as it 
 now turns out, they have been prepared. 
 (Cheers.) Then, sir, the hon. gentleman 
 went on to deal with the 
 
 QUESTION i^Z FOREIGN POPULATION. 
 
 He said there could not possibly have been 
 so many immigrants coming into Canada 
 during the last ten years because, forsooth, 
 there was not as large a foreign-born popu- 
 lation at the end of the ten years as there was 
 at the commencement. He assumes that 
 20,000 a year was a very large death rate for 
 that foreign population. Now, sir, it is im- 
 possible for any one, I care not who he may 
 be, to make a correct or absolute analysis of 
 figures of that kind and to find out precisely 
 what the death rate of that foreign popula- 
 lation was. I think we may fairly assume 
 that from 1861 to 1871 there were compara- 
 tively few immigrants settled In Canada. 
 At that time the mode of keeping im- 
 migration returns accepted as immigrants 
 
 all who camo to the ports of Quebec and 
 Montral, not at all deducting tliose 
 who simply came in transitu and passed 
 through. It is well known to every one at 
 all acquainted with Canada during those ten 
 years, that there was comparatively little 
 foreign immigration during that time — I 
 tliink ] am right in that estimate, and 1 ap- 
 peal on the point to every one who knows 
 anything of the matter dming that decade. 
 (Hear, hear. ) It follows, therefore, that the 
 foreign population of the country in 1871 
 was composed largely of old people, and *he 
 death rate which the hon. gjntleman referrod 
 to does not, I believe, in any sense 
 whatever represent the death rate which took 
 place during that time of the foreign-born 
 population in Canada. If the hon. gentleman 
 will look at the American census, if he will 
 take the foreign immigra^^iou that came into 
 the United St-.tes from 1870 to 1880, and fol- 
 lowing the process of reasoning which he has 
 adopted in this case, if ho will take the for- 
 eign-born population in the United States at 
 the end of that period and at the end of the 
 previous period, he will find that there were 
 in the United States more than a million of 
 foreign population less than there should 
 have been under the process which he applies 
 to Canada. Wherever that million went to 
 in the United States it certainly is not to be 
 found in the United States now ; and in view 
 of that fact, and especially in view of the fact 
 that many of this foreign population may 
 have been m.erely migrants not remaining in 
 the country, I think we may fairly assume 
 that the process upon which the hon. gentle- 
 man founded his argument was not a fair or 
 correct one. (Cheers.) Now, sir, I think it 
 is unnecessary to say any more on the subject 
 of immigration, or on the migration which the 
 hon. gentlemen have referred to. To-day, for- 
 tunately, we are not in the position we were in 
 formerly; to-day, fortunately, we have our own 
 Northwest to which these immigrants can go ; 
 they are not bound to go to the United States 
 any longer. 
 Americans 
 Northwest, 
 
 And, sir, 
 
 more than that, the 
 themselves are going into our 
 , simply because it is a newer coim- 
 try, and the tendency is to remove to newar 
 countries. Why, sir, a system of migration 
 is going on in the Northwest itself. If you 
 go up the South Saskatchewan to Prince 
 Albert, you will find along the banks of the 
 river two or three hundred settlers who were 
 formerly residents of Manitoba. If you will 
 go up to Edmonton you will find there a 
 number of settlers who made their first settle- 
 
83 
 
 one ftt 
 ose toll 
 littlo 
 line — I 
 (1 I ttp- 
 
 knowH 
 
 locuclo. 
 
 that the 
 
 u 1871 
 
 find *lie 
 
 : ft; nod 
 
 meat in the neighbourhood of Prince Albert 
 or in Manitoba, the tendency being perpetu- 
 ally to go west, (hear, liear.) But with that 
 country now open, with the opportunity to 
 the Canadian emigrant to go in and find a 
 Iiome in his own country instead of in tlie 
 United States, I venture to believe that tlu; 
 census returns of the current decennial period 
 will tell a very different tale from that which 
 the census told at the end of the last decen- 
 nial period. 
 
 MANITOBA AND THE NORTHWEST. 
 
 And this brings me to deal with the ques- 
 tion of our Nortliwest. I know I have been 
 accused of being unfriendly to the Northwest, 
 because of a remark I made in this house the 
 other day. Tliat remark has been travestied 
 everywhere as if I were an cueir..^ lo that 
 country. Thank God I do not stand hero to- 
 day requiring to assert my frienlship to 
 the Northwest and my earnest hope for its 
 welfare. F^r twenty years, by tongue and 
 pen, with such ability as Jod has given me, 
 I have been an earnest and enthusiastic ad- 
 vocate of the Northwest of this Dominion, 
 and I believe, as strongly as I believe I am 
 Btanding on the floor of this house, that the 
 future of this country depends on its develop- 
 ment, and without that development, with- 
 out its success, the future of the old provinces 
 is hardly worth considering at all — that is, 
 
 tn 'he sense, 
 dependent and 
 
 mean 
 
 prosperous 
 
 of an lU- 
 community 
 
 Our people will go westward, and 
 the future prosperity of these old provinces 
 depends, I say entirely, and I use that word 
 advisedly, as we stand on this continent to- 
 day, upon the development of our Northwest 
 country. Sir, I used the term the other 
 night, and I repeat it, that those are the 
 greatest enemies to the Northwest who are 
 endeavouring to convince the settlers that 
 they should be " spoo'~-fed" by the older 
 provinces. That is the fair and reasonable 
 meaning of my statement. (Cheers.) But 
 are the settlers parties to that ? I shall re- 
 quire better evidence than anything we have 
 seen in the past before I believe it. People 
 have gone into that Northwest country. 
 They have found grievances, if grievances 
 they may be called, which are incident to new 
 settlement. They are nothing, as difaculties, 
 to compare with the difficulties which attended 
 settlers in the old provinces of Ontario, Que- 
 bec, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia ; but 
 they are inciderits which they bear, and which 
 I believe they are prepared to bear, courage- 
 
 ously, hopefully, and with the rcsidt of find- 
 ing themselves before long prosperous and 
 well-to-do settlers. The hon. gcntlemiui 
 talked of sympathizing intensely with those 
 who wished their grievances in the Northwest 
 to bo redressed. I ventured to ask him, 
 across the house, what those grievances wore, 
 and he was kind enough to refer to two, and 
 to .;WO only : First, the land regulations ; 
 and second, the railway monopoly. 
 
 THE LAND REGULATIONS. 
 
 Now, sir, what are the grievances connected 
 with the land regulations? Sir, are those 
 grievances greater than those which have ob- 
 tained in the neighbouring states, which are 
 our rivals in efforts to obtain population for 
 our Northwest ? Does the settlor going into 
 the Canadian Northwest stand in a worse 
 position than the settler going into Dakota, 
 Minnesota, Kansas, Texas or any other states 
 or territories of the American union ? No ; 
 on the contrary, the land regulations are infi- 
 nitely more liberal in the Canadian North- 
 west than they are in the United States. 
 [Clieers.] The regulations have been changed, 
 we nave been told. Hon. gentleman opposite, 
 when on this side of the house, changed the 
 land regulations frequently. At one time they 
 shut up against settlement large portions of the 
 Northwest altogether, and the last regulations 
 they made before going out of office were to 
 open those lands to homsteaders and settlers 
 at $1 per acre, but with the undcrstiinding 
 that they should afterwr.rds pay what the 
 government might consiaer the value of the 
 lands when the railway was built and they 
 came to assess that value. [Cheers. ] That 
 was the condition of the land regulations 
 when hon. gentlemen opposite went out of 
 power. The present government have 
 changed the regulations on two or three oc- 
 casions, and on every occasion they have 
 changed them for the better, until to-day they 
 stand as much superior to those in force un- 
 der the previous government as it was possi- 
 ble for one set of regulations to bo superior 
 to another. We are told thero were some 
 reservations in the North vvest; that there 
 were large reservations in Southern Manitoba 
 and that the Mile Belt along the line of rail- 
 wa3' was reserved. As regards the reserva- 
 tion of the Mile Belt, that certaialy could not 
 be a serious injury to settlers going in there 
 to make homes for themselves. There was a 
 reason for that reservation. There was a 
 disposition to speculate to an enormous ex- 
 tent in town and village lots in the North- 
 
d4 
 
 I 
 
 west. Wherever a stfttion was placed, 
 there pooj)lo expected a town would Hpring 
 up. The Hamo thing was going on and 
 ho same disappointment will follow, as 
 occurred in 1855-5(5, when the 'irand Trunk 
 was being built and plans of paper towns 
 were to be found in every hotel, and when 
 the people expected to make fortunes by buy- 
 ing a town lot at a railway station. There 
 was a terrible awakening then, and the 
 awakening in our Northwest villages and 
 towns has also been of a very serious charac- 
 ter ; and I believe, as regards some of them, 
 there will be great disappointment in the fu- 
 ture. (Hear, hear.) But it was not desir- 
 able that 'people should be induced to take 
 up lots in the Mile Belt and hope to have a 
 station on the lot and convert it into a town 
 plot. The moment stations were fixed 
 along the line, the difficulty was removed, 
 and the Mile Belt was thrown open to settle- 
 ment ; and at this moment settlers can go in- 
 to the Northwest and into every part of it, on 
 the railway reservation, I mean the oven- 
 numbered sections of the railway reservation, 
 on the even-numbered sections of the Colon- 
 ization Company's grants, throughout the 
 ■whole Northwest the land is open tor home- 
 stead and pre-emption, not as in the Unitod 
 States, for homesteading alone or for pre-emp- 
 tion alone. [Cheers.] Every man can take 
 a homestead of 160 acres on the payment of 
 a fee of $10, while in the United States he 
 has to pay fees running from $15 to $28, ac- 
 cording to the lands he happens to get. In 
 addition, the settler in the North- 
 west can take a pre-emption of 
 160 acres alongside his homestead, and 
 he can find himself immed.i^ely in possession 
 of 320 acres of good br-v m which he can 
 settle with his family. I'-riere are the griev- 
 ances in connection with these land regula- 
 tions? (CLjers.) Is it a grievance that a 
 man can go there and obtain 160 acres for 
 nothing and another 160 acres for 
 a comparatively nominal sum ? No ; there is 
 no evil connected with the land regulations 
 of to-day. What is wanted in that country, 
 and what I trust will be given at all times, 
 are civil, kind officials, who will recognize, 
 when immigrants go in, tkat there is nothing 
 they want so much as a kind shake of the 
 hand and a God bless you. Cold officialism 
 sometimes drives back immigrants and set- 
 tlers, and any officer who undertakes to be 
 guilty of it in the Northwest should be pun- 
 ished by instant dismissal, however valuable 
 his services may be. (Cheers.) That, sir, I 
 
 believe, will be the policy in relation to the 
 liberal land laws which n )w prevail in that 
 country, and I am bound to say that I think 
 there is no grievance of that kind. But wo 
 are told that there is a grievance in relation 
 to 
 
 THr MONOPOLY CLAUSE OV THE RAILWAY. 
 
 Sir, i i it a grievance that a country like that, 
 which has just been settled, which is 
 just being settled, should have al- 
 ready somb 1,200 miles of railway built 
 through it, without a dollar of cost to the 
 people who live in it? Is that the grievance 
 which hon. gentlemen opposite complain of? 
 They tell us, if it were not for that monopoly 
 clause independent lines would have gone 
 into that country and they would have had 
 the competition which they say they desire. 
 Sir, a very shrewd man in this country, a 
 practical engineer, whose name is well known 
 to a great many people, and I venture to say, 
 to every gentleman in this house, I mean Mr. 
 Thomas Kcefer, once said, that the longest 
 railroad journey a man could take was the 
 journey from the charter to the rolling stock. 
 (Hear, hear.) Sir, the mere giving of oppor- 
 tunitjes to build a railway, the mere granting 
 of a charter, does not build a railway. These 
 settlers in the Northwest, or rather those who 
 are undertaking to speak in their name, pretend 
 to think that the Northern Pacific would have 
 built railways into that country. Sir, already 
 that bubble has burst. That road has enough 
 to do to take care of itself at this moment, 
 without building branches either into our 
 country or into their own. But, sir, we have had 
 two or three railway companies, aye, several 
 railway companies, chartered, and what has 
 been the result ? There is no difficulty about 
 competition within the country itself. 
 Any man can get a charter from 
 parliament — I sometimes think they can get 
 them too easily — who will come here and 
 propose to build a railway from Winnipeg to 
 any part of that country, except across that 
 Fifteen Mile Belt. Several charters have 
 been obtained, and how many railways have 
 been built ? The Southwestern Railway has 
 been partly built, and I believe, but for the 
 conduct of the agitators in that country, who, 
 I fear, have been thinking more of their poli- 
 tics than their country, but for the effect of 
 their agitation, but for the news which went 
 abroad that there is discontent in that coun- 
 try, a disposition almost towards secession or 
 rebellion, I believe that arrangements would 
 to-day have been completed for the construe- 
 
d5 
 
 I 
 
 that, 
 ich is 
 al- 
 
 built 
 to tho 
 
 tion this season of 112 miles of the Honth- 
 wostein Railway. Let us hope tJiat it will 
 bo built by some means or other. 
 [Cheers.] Then Uikci tho Northwestern from 
 Portage la I'rairio westwarda over th's old 
 trail which went towards Prince Albert. 
 What is the position of that road ? A few 
 miles have been built and an advantage has 
 been derived from it, and to-day the pro- 
 moters are in England endeavouring to raise 
 capital to complete it. And how are they 
 met ? The news that comes is that tho ene- 
 mies of tho Northwest, tho agitators of so- 
 called settlers' grievances, have hiul such an 
 effect upon the British mind that they pro 
 met with this agitation wherever they at- 
 tempt to get a dollar of money to put into 
 that road. (Clieers.) There is no difficulty 
 about building railways through the North- 
 west, and as to that so-called monopoly 
 clause, hon. gentlemen know that it was the 
 policy of both political parties in this country 
 that the Canadian Pacific Railway should be 
 built in such a way, and the territory pre- 
 served in such a way, that the traffic of the 
 Northwest sliould have at least a reasonable 
 chance of coming down over our own lines 
 and through our own channels of communica- 
 tion. (Cheers.) That was the policy of both 
 political parties. The charter of the Cana- 
 dian Pacitic Railway does not affect old 
 Manitoba at all. It has nothing to do 
 with old Manitoba. Their is no pri- 
 vity cf contract with the Canadian Pa- 
 cific Railway Company that railway 
 charters shall be disallowed within the 
 old boundaries of Manitoba, and as to the 
 portion of the province which is included in 
 the new boundaries, if it applies to that, it 
 applies by the deliberate act of the Manitoba 
 Legislature, which passed an act bc*nctioning 
 it. We have had an announcement made on 
 the floor of parliament which, I believe, will 
 be carried out, that with that railway built 
 north of Lake Superior the interests of this 
 country, in connection with the trade of the 
 great Northwest, as well as the interests of 
 the Canadian Pacific Railwa]"^, will render 
 unnecessary any exercise of the power of dis- 
 allowance ; but that on the contrary, with 
 that road built through that section of the 
 country, the object of the company will be to 
 secure traffic from the western states over 
 their line north of Lake Superior, lown to 
 Montreal and Queb'ic, and from Quebec to the 
 ports of the maritime provinces — and that 
 will be their policy rather than to cut off com- 
 muoicatiou with the American states. 
 
 THH QUBSTION OP FRKIOHT BATK8. 
 
 And what does tho monopoly amount to ? 
 Unless it can be shown that it has resulted in 
 [ ractictU evils to tlio people of tl'o Northwest, 
 it is simply idle to talk about it at all. I find, 
 taking the matter of freight -ates — and 
 I make the statement liero from infor- 
 mation which I believe to bo cor- 
 rect — tlat during last fall there has been a 
 higher price paid to the farmers for grain 
 along the line of the Pacific Railway in tho 
 Northwest than along the portions of the lino 
 of the Northern Pacific in the co' .landing 
 condition in the United States. V. .- what 
 are the relative rates of these two railways, 
 which are corresponding railways, both car- 
 rying grain from the west to the east. From 
 Winnipeg to Port Arthur, on the Canadian 
 Pacific, the rate is 28 cents per 100 lbs ; from 
 Geneva to St. Paul, the same distance, on the 
 Northern Pacific, it is 33 cents ; from Mani- 
 toba to the L Mi'ling, 531) miles, is 30 cents ; 
 from Eagle's Nest to St. Paul, on the North- 
 ern Pacific, for the same distance, it is 48 cts. 
 From Brandon to the Landing, on the Cana- 
 dian Pacific, 568 miles, the rate is 33 cents ; 
 from Taylor to St. Paul, on the Northern Pa- 
 cific, the same distance, it is 55 cents. From 
 Verdun to the Landing, a distance of 615 
 miles, the rate is 36 ; from Sully Springs to 
 St. Paul, the same distance, on the Northern 
 Pacific, the rate is 64 cents. From Broadview 
 to the Landing, 699 miles, the rate is 37J 
 cents; from Glendive to St. Paul, on the Nor- 
 thern Pacific, 690 miles, the rate is 80 cents. 
 From Regina to the Landing, on tho Cana- 
 dian Pacitic Railway, 792 miles, the rate is 
 40 cents ; froL.. St. Martin to St. " Paul, 790 
 miles, the rate is 90 cents. From Calgary to 
 the Landing, a distance of 1,275 miles, the 
 rate is 63 cents, and the same distance on the 
 Northern Pacific, the rate is $1.40. (Cheers.) 
 So that the rates you get for the longer dis- 
 tance on the Northern Pacific are actually 
 douMj what they are on the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway. That is the condition of the freight 
 charges on these two roads, one running 
 through American territory, and the other 
 running through Canadian territory. Sir, 
 there is no doubt whatever that the question 
 of transportation is the great question for the 
 Northwest — the one important question, 
 which overtops all other questions. The one 
 question which challenges every man who 
 goes into that country, is whether he can 
 secure for his grain such a price as will en- 
 able him to cultivate profitably, and that 
 
 •::i 
 
3C 
 
 questioned is answered by the price it is go- 
 ing. to cost him to get at the market. Last 
 night I took the liberty of telegraphing to 
 Mr. Van florne, is to the rates of freight 
 which are to be charged /or wheat from Win- 
 nipeg to Montreal during the coming eeason, 
 and what is his answer ? I will read it to the 
 house : — 
 
 " On opening navigation, rate on wheat by 
 railway to Port Arthur, lake from there to 
 Owen Sound or Algoina, and railway thence to 
 Montreal, will be 28 cents per bushel, Includ- 
 ing elevator charges, but by railway" to Port 
 ArthUx", thence by water to Montreal, It will 
 be about 25 cents per bushel . 
 
 " W. 0. VAN HOBNK." 
 
 (Cheers.) I venture to say that when you 
 have established the fact that by this road 
 you can take Manitoba wheat from Winnipeg 
 and bring it to the port of Montreal at 25 
 cents per bushel, and when we remember 
 that that wheat, at the port of Montreal, is 
 worth at least 10 cents a bushel more than 
 wheat from the Province of Ontario, which 
 practically makes the cost of transport 10 
 cents less on the bushel, you have done away 
 altogether with the question of monopoly. 
 (Cheers.) The Canadian Pacific Railway 
 Company have as great an interest, almost, 
 as the country itself has in the development 
 of that country. The success of their enter- 
 prise depends entirely on the manner in which 
 they can put settlers into the country, and the 
 manner in which they can put settlers into 
 the country, depends on the manner they treat 
 them wher. in the country. What did we find 
 last fall, when the difficulties occurred in con- 
 nection with the stories of frozen whsat in 
 that country, and the actual fact of frozen 
 wheat in some cases. When the settlers 
 went to the managers of the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway and laid the matter before them, 
 they found them ready to meet their views at 
 once ; and upon that frozen wheat there was 
 an immense reduction made at once in the 
 freight charges, in order to compensate the 
 settlers, as far as they ^lould, for the damrge 
 done to them by this unforescn and almost 
 unprecedented event. (Cheers.) bir, there 
 is no ground whatever upon which any just 
 complaint can be made in relation to the 
 facilities afforded to that country compared 
 with any other part of this North American 
 Continent ; and, sir, I venture to say — and I 
 am sure people outside of this house, unin- 
 fluenced by their party sympathies and thoh- 
 party desiros, will agree with me — that there 
 is no part of the Continent of America to-da> 
 sinailarly situated with the Northwest Terri- 
 
 tories which hn -^ the same railway facilities 
 afforded to it, a 1 at the same time compara- 
 tively low rate of charges. (Cheers. ) Now, 
 sir, thpss parties say that they want branch 
 roads, and I sincerely hope tiiey will get 
 them. If they will give capitalists 
 a chance to have confidence in 
 the country ; if they w ill only hold 
 their hand, and if hon. gentlemen in this 
 house who are making use of the temporary 
 agitation there for their own advantage will 
 only hold their hand — if chey will not create 
 an impression in the minds of capitalists 
 everywhere that that country is not a safe 
 country in which to invest capital, bec^.use it 
 is liable to political tumult, and possibly t 
 political changes — if they will only avoid 
 that — then, sir, I venture to say that money 
 will be got to build these branch railways, 
 and before ten years more the people of the 
 Northwest, in every part of it, will be able to 
 realize that their lots are indeed cast in plea- 
 sant places, and that they have indeed a 
 goodly heritage. (Cheers.) Sir, the hon. 
 gentleman did not refer to other grievances 
 which the people urge. He did not refer to 
 the project of 
 
 THE Hudson's bat railway, 
 
 which ihey ask to be built immediately at the 
 public expense — practically at the public ex- 
 pense — because I believe they are asking the 
 provincial government to guarantee the bonds 
 of that railway. Now, sir, I sincerely hope 
 that tho Hudson' s Bay route will prove to be 
 a success. 1 believe it will prove to be a 
 success. It is a commercial question — en- 
 tirely a commercial question. No building of 
 railways to the Hudson' s Bay by this house 
 will ever make the Hudson's Bay route a suc- 
 cess, unless you can convince merchants, ship- 
 owners and under writorK that it is a sate route 
 for vessels. But I am sure that the people of 
 the Northwest will be glad to learn the an- 
 nouncement made the other day in the news- 
 papers as to the policy of the government 
 with reference to that project. In this, as in 
 evXtything else, the conservative party are 
 the pioneers in good works in the interests of 
 the N orthwest. (Cheers. ) Sir, I am sure the 
 people of the Northwest were glad to learn 
 that it is the intention of tlie government this 
 year to cause a thorough exploration to be 
 made of the feasibility of that Hudson Bay 
 route, and that increased inducements are to 
 be given to capitalists who are disposed to 
 enter on the work of the Hudson Bay Rail- 
 way. I am not afraid, as one belonging to 
 
 the 
 
 of I 
 
 due 
 
 ing 
 
 mo 
 
 diti 
 
 val 
 
 cou 
 
 the 
 
 Noi 
 
 poi 
 
 rou 
 
 is a 
 
 of 
 
 the 
 
 thie 
 
 to i 
 
 Noi 
 
 the 
 
 ed i 
 
 Sir, 
 
)t 
 
 icilities 
 
 )mpara- 
 
 Now, 
 
 branch 
 
 will get 
 
 pitalists 
 
 ce in 
 
 hold 
 
 in this 
 
 mporary 
 
 age will 
 
 create 
 
 pitalists 
 
 a safe 
 
 c^use it 
 
 ssibly t 
 
 avoid 
 
 money 
 
 •ailways, 
 
 i of the 
 
 e able to 
 
 t in plea- 
 
 indeed a 
 
 the hon. 
 
 rievances 
 
 t refer to 
 
 ely at the 
 tublic ex- 
 sking the 
 the bonds 
 irely hope 
 ove to be 
 re to be a 
 ition — Cii- 
 iiilding of 
 ;hi8 house 
 ute a suc- 
 mts, ship- 
 safe route 
 people of 
 a the an- 
 the news- 
 ivernment 
 bhis, as in 
 party are 
 iterests of 
 n sure the 
 i to learn 
 ment this 
 ion to be 
 dson Bay 
 its are to 
 sposed to 
 3ay Rail- 
 )nging to 
 
 37 
 
 the older provinces, as a resident of the city 
 of Montreal, of any effect that will be pro- 
 duced on the eastern provinces by the open- 
 ing up of that route. No ; Mr. Speaker, the 
 more you can develop that Northwest by ad- 
 ditional routes, the more you develop its 
 value as a factor in the progress of ihe whole 
 country. If you can secure to the people 
 there a means of getting their grain out of the 
 Northwest by way of Hudson Bay, and from that 
 point to Liverpool, by a shorter line than the 
 route by Montreal, and if, as the result, there 
 is a large increase in the trade and population 
 of that country, I say that will inure to 
 the great advantage of every part of 
 this Dominion, and w e may fairly look forward 
 to increased competition for the trade of that 
 Northwest, by the older channels, as soon as 
 the new one is opened up. All that is want- 
 ed is that people will be true to the country. 
 Sir, it seems an extraordinary thing that men 
 
 can imagine that by a mere stroke of the pen 
 that country can be covered by an iron 
 girdle of railways traversing it. Wonders 
 have been already accomplished in connection 
 with it. No other part of this continent has 
 seen similar wonders ; and if hon. gentlemen 
 will only give that country a chance, and 
 make up their minds for once that they will 
 sink their party and think only of their coun- 
 try — if they will only allow capitalists to 
 have full confidence in that great country, I 
 venture to say that before five years are over 
 we shall hear no more of Manitoba grievances, 
 because the practical experience of those five 
 years, and the practical results accompanying 
 it, will be such that every semblance of what 
 to- day is regarded as a ,jrievance will ha^e 
 passed away, and the country will be in that 
 condition of prosperity which every man in 
 this country earnestly hopes for it. [Loud 
 and continued cheers. 1 , , ,,