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 THE BUDGET 
 
 Delicered in the House of Commons 
 
 July 22nd, 1891, 
 
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 NICHOLAS FLOOD DAVIN, M. P. 
 
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 Speech on the ©udget. 
 
 DELIVERED IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS JULY S3nd, 1891, 
 
 -"■ '» • ■■ - ■ - , ■ , ; ■■' • ^ ,'■,"" 'J^ ■ . 
 
 , ,. "■:' /. ■ —BY- '• .• ' • V- y'-'r. 
 
 NICHOLAS FLOOD DAVIN, M. P. 
 
 Mr. Speaker, I will (i<it imitfitt' 
 
 most of the h(.u. geiitiHinuii who 
 
 have preceded tue in this debate. I have 
 
 noticed that the plan pursued in this 
 
 discussion -if indeed discussion be the 
 
 proper word to describe it — has been, that 
 
 one hon. gentleman has risen after 
 
 another, and having said a few w rds 
 
 *hi)ut what his opponent or predeco'^sor 
 
 ai oci'Upation of the flour had said, he 
 
 then went int* a long essay on the Trade 
 
 and Navigation Returns. In fa -t, I had 
 
 the pleasure of liste.j)ing to one hoti. 
 
 gencleinan who only failed to have 
 C(/nimenced with Noah descending ivon\ 
 the ark, for he went back to the remotest 
 historj', and took us over a large trace of 
 country. Sir, 1 will follow the hon. 
 nieinber from Arthabaska (Mr. Lavergne) 
 as closely as I can, in regard t<> all ^hat 
 portion of his speech which I think lie 
 might claim worthy of consideration at 
 the hands of this house. He said that he 
 came to give his testimony as to what was 
 the condition of tilings in his own county, 
 and how the policy i>f tlie Government 
 affected the peo^jle in his c >unty, and 
 during his remarks he frequently used the 
 phrase ; "I am informed." Well, Sir, I 
 am informed that the hon. gentleman is a 
 dismjguiahed lawyer, and he must know 
 vury well that oven in poliiical matters 
 hearsay evidence is not very valuable. I 
 should have much preferred had he given 
 us exactly what he had seen himself, so 
 that we might have had his direct testi- 
 mony as to the dolorous effect of the policy 
 of the Government in the part of the 
 country to which he belongs. The hon. 
 
 genth man commenced by talkin<4 of a 
 " cloud abf>ut the size of a man's hand ; " 
 a phrase used by my hf>n. friend from 
 Albert (Mr. Weldon), and he went on to 
 refer to the Corn Laws, and he declared 
 that the feeling in England to-day was 
 very much the same as it was at the .ime 
 of the Corn Laws, and that any attempt 
 to ask England to modify her fiscal policy 
 so as to meet the desires of her colonies iu 
 gene ml, and this colony in particular, was 
 utterly futile. Is the hon. gentleman 
 aware of the tone held by the Times 
 newspaper, the leading organ of public 
 opinion in England ? Is the hon. gentle- 
 man awar*) of the tone held by such a 
 paper as the Economist^ probably the 
 greatest journalistic organ on fiscal matters 
 in thtj world ? la the hon. gentleaian 
 aware that there is a great change of 
 feeling iu England, aud that in fact, that 
 deification of Richard Cobden that once 
 existed there has passtd away ; and that 
 the general feeling prevails, as though 
 Carlyle's estimate of him was the correct 
 estimate, when he said in his humourous 
 way, that he rt'garded Richard Cobden as 
 an inspired bag-niaa who believed in a 
 calico niillenium (Laughter.) Now, 
 Mr. Speaker, I happen to have herf an 
 estimate by a distinguished financial 
 authority. 
 
 Mr. Amyot. That is hearsay evidence, 
 Mr. Davin. If my hon. friend will 
 spare me his sugi,'e8tions I shall be very 
 glad, because I am sure neither light nor 
 swettnesi* come from these. I have here, 
 Mr. Speaker, a suggestion made by a 
 distinguished financial authority, and it is 
 a suggestion that my hon. friend the 
 Minister of Finance, or whoever repre 
 senting the Government may go down to 
 
Washington, will do well to b^ar in mind. 
 Ue is dealing with the McKiiiley B'il, and 
 he points out cogently and powerfully 
 h()W England ought to deal with th« 
 United States with regard to that nieasure. 
 All he sayo bears on the very question 
 raised in the first sentence of tke speech 
 of my hon. and learned friend from 
 Arthabasca (Mr. Lavergne). Ue regards 
 the McKinley Bill as a retaliatory nieasuie, 
 and, en passant, he points out that it 
 enables Brazil to favour the United States 
 against England He declares that the 
 McKinley Bill is a retaliatory measure, 
 and that England is bound to retaliate 
 Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to 
 commit myself to the proposition that I 
 would, u.idor any circumstances, favour 
 retaliatory legislation. lam n'>t dealing 
 with that point ; I am discussing the point 
 raised by my hon. friend when he said 
 there was no change in opinion in Eng- 
 land with regard to this matter, and as to 
 whether we may or may not expect that 
 Engk, -i would modify her tariff in 
 another direction than the free trade 
 direction, with a view to affect other 
 tariflfs, such as that of the United States. 
 I may say here, that I was perfectly 
 astonished to hear from the hon. gentle 
 man who so ably represents South Oxford 
 (Sir Richard Cartwright) the 8tateme:;t 
 that the (roveramenc of Canada, with 
 bated breath and whispered humbleness, 
 had to come down the moment a changtj 
 took place in the tariff of the country to 
 the south of the line. We know very 
 well, Sir, that the incidence of commerce 
 is so delicate that if any nation on the 
 continent of Europe were to modify its 
 tariff in any given way, it would be for 
 any contiguous nation to consider whether 
 it should not umdify its tariff too. Ther** 
 are some staples that wt import from the 
 United States that if we were to deal with 
 in the spirit of this McKinley Bdl it 
 would be a matter for the Secretary of 
 of State of the United States t<> consider 
 whether he would not in turn deal with 
 the tariff un such article in an equitable 
 way, corresponding with the change that 
 had taken place in the cr.ntiguous country. 
 Here let me pause to cg,11 attention to the 
 closing sentence in the speech of the hon. 
 
 member for South Brant (Mr. Patterson). 
 1 will speak in the spirit of that sentence, 
 anri I will ask that for the remainder of 
 this debate h«)n. geii'lenien on my own 
 side of the House — and it i» a very Irish 
 position, because it is the other side — as 
 well as hnn gentlemen on this side, will 
 speak Hnd act and vote in the spirit of 
 these words I will try to vole in their 
 spirit myself ; and if the hon. member 
 for South Oxford were here I would ask 
 him to analyse his resolutiim for me, to 
 show me that the two parts of that 
 resolution hang together, and then that 
 the whole will be heneticial, and if he did 
 that he might find me voting with him. 
 
 Mr. Laurier. You are boaatiny. 
 
 Mr. Davin. My hon. friend is too 
 
 egotistical to suppose that it would be 
 
 boasting on my part to speak of voting on 
 
 his side This is what the hon. member 
 
 for South Brant said : 
 
 " While I may »ot have convinced him, I trust 
 that by exan.ining each oth3r'8 views from our 
 diffe' ent points of view, we may both find our 
 minds enlarged, and may endeavour to promote 
 legislation in this House which shall be for the 
 best interests of the people of Canada." 
 
 No nobler words were ever spoken in any 
 legislative assembly. (Cheers, cries of 
 hear, hear). 
 
 Mr. Davin. I am glad hon. gentlemen 
 cheer, and would to (wod men on both 
 sides of the House would go into the 
 debate in that spirit. Then we should 
 not have the kind of debate which we 
 constantly witness. I do not conceal — it 
 may be impertinent on my part not to 
 conceal it— that I utterly disapprove of 
 the character of the debate. We should 
 have a mutual discussi.ui among ourselves 
 as to what will be the best, instead of 
 discussing a definite financial issue with 
 all the heated passions of partizans. 
 Every year we have a discussion on this 
 financial issue, and it reminds me of the 
 etymology of the word ''debate.' Asthe 
 hon. leader of the Opposition knows, it is 
 derived from the French word debatre, 
 which in turn is derived from the old 
 French w«trd hatre. which means to beat, 
 to lay on ; and it is in that meaning that 
 we apply the word here, ini>tead of in that 
 proper meaning which now holds -to 
 interchange' opiniorts, to cross swords in 
 
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 ar.'Uiiiunt, to h^hr out issaea, and then 
 uoiue to oiicluBUMis. But what has 
 happened here 'i There has been no 
 joining of issues wh;ite,ver, no swords 
 crossed ; but in fact we have been beating 
 the air and talking wildly. Now, to show 
 i '-^ uiy hon. friend that it is possible that 
 
 ^j \ Eni^land might change, Mr. Williaui J. 
 Harris proposes retaliation, a tax on the 
 corn and provisions of the United States ; 
 and he shows pretty clearly in the Kcono 
 mist of the 14th of M^rch last, that this 
 need not and probably would not cause 
 the cry of dear bread to be raised; and 
 we know that in the main free trade 
 means cheap bread. Hon. gentlemen 
 speak of England being a free trade 
 country, as if everything came into Eng- 
 land tree. We know thnt is not the case; 
 that free trade there neant not the 
 abolition, but rather the modification of 
 the laws dealnig with breadstuffs Take 
 wheat England requires about 17,500,- 
 000 quarters, ..r 140,000,000 bushels 
 annually. The wheat exporting power of 
 the world, leaving out the United States, 
 is 224,800,000 bushels. The export from 
 Cana'^a is abi ut 5,000,000 bushels, and 
 that from Argentin«^, 8,000,000 bushels ; 
 and the output from both these countries 
 is likely to increase enormously. Give 
 Russia, with her export of 96,000,000 
 bushels, and the otht'r exporting countries 
 preferential terms in the English markets 
 arid they would ()refer to direct their 
 supplies to (Treat Britain rather than to 
 Italy, Spain, Germany, or France, all of 
 which impose duties varying from 18^ to 
 25 cents a bushel. Bu\ as a fact, Eng- 
 land miyht somi rely on her own posses- 
 sions, India exporting 32,000.000 bushels, 
 Australia 12,000,000, and Canada 5.000,- 
 000, ..r 49,000,000 bushels out of t.^o 
 140,000,0000 bushels required by England. 
 Anyway it is clear that action on the part 
 of England, challenyed by the McKinley 
 Bill, would deprive the United States 
 farmers of the English market. How 
 serious a thing this would be may be 
 gathered from the fact that in 1889 the 
 United States exported to England 36 '69 
 per cent, of the 140,000 000 bushels she 
 required, and in 1887 61 46 per cent. It 
 would be necessary, of course, to place an 
 
 import duty on wheat and tiour imported 
 from Holland, in order to make the 
 retaliation c uplete. With regard to 
 maize and meat, of which last Great 
 Britain is al ost the sole importer, she 
 would be still more independent, Rou- 
 mania, Turkey, Russia, and Argentine 
 can grow maize quite as cheaply as the 
 United States. Canadians would tind a 
 better market than they have even now in 
 Enuland, and we send six and a half 
 millions there. The American agricultur- 
 ists would either have to keep maize and 
 meat at home or else compete in the 
 English market with other countries on 
 unequal terms. What a row there would 
 be then in the United States. You would 
 have the United States farmer pretty well 
 discontented with McKinley Bills and 
 the authors of them. England, then, is 
 now in a position to retaliate, I do not 
 say that she will retaliate ; but she could 
 with<»ut raising theory of dear bread — and 
 it is the cry of dear bread that Lord 
 Salisbury is afraid of — effectively do S(^ 
 Mark these tiguies. England takes frou) 
 the United States ^77,500,000 worth of 
 farm produce and manufactures ; take 
 from this the raw materials of manufac- 
 ture, such as wool and cotton, amounting 
 to $167,500,000, and you have $310,000,- 
 000 worth of imports, on which, without 
 doing the British people the least injury 
 an import duty could be imposed. Look 
 at the oth^r side. $151,500,000 is all 
 that Great Britain exports to the United 
 States, and this goes m over a tariff wall 
 s«» hiuh that it may be fairly described as 
 prohib'.tive. England, therefore, has a 
 fou'^i'iid power 4)f retaliation if she wishes 
 t< usy it ; and the sooner, probably, she 
 menaces the use of it the better, for the 
 nvmeni she menaced the use of it I 
 believe the Americans would come down ; 
 because, after all, if 1 were negotiating 
 with Ameiican diplomatists I would 
 remember the American character ; I 
 would remember that it is a comn ercial 
 character ; that it is a character without 
 the fighting quality or without the point 
 of honour that belongs to a people partly 
 military and partly commercial. Where 
 you have a purely commercial coma)unity 
 you have some virtues that will not 
 
flourish in a military community. You 
 will have a wide humanity, yuu will havu 
 the domestic virtues very strong, but the 
 sentiment of honour will bt weak and 
 chivb.ry will be at a discount ; and you 
 will tind that the moment you point to 
 their self interest, the moment you show 
 them they are likely, in any way, to suffer 
 in the pocket, that moment they will 
 come round to your views. My hon. 
 friend beside me whispers that I am 
 becoming too philosophical If I have 
 soared too high for my hon. ft lend I will 
 now come down to his understanding. 
 The great Seldon, when he used ^o come 
 down to the old Bailey to defend a man, 
 always took a h. 'f-{4allon of porter, in 
 order, as he would say, to bring down his 
 understanding to the level of the jury. 
 (Laughter). And, Sir, whatever assembly 
 a man is addressing he ought to bring 
 down his understanding to the level of 
 that assembly. (Hear, hear.) Now, my 
 hon. friend from Arthabasca (Mr. La- 
 vergne) will see that when you find a man 
 of the distinction of Mr. Harris and the 
 economists of London discussing the 
 question, it is not at all such an unlikely 
 thing that England — and it will be remem- 
 bered that during the time of Napoleon 
 we had a war of commercial devices 
 between America, France, and England — 
 it is not at all unlikely that England will 
 take it into her head to retaliate, and she 
 might menace retaliation with the utmost 
 safety. If she did, the result would be 
 that our negotiators, when they do go 
 down next autumn to Washington, would 
 have a very easy course indeed. My hon. 
 friend from Arthabasca, unfortunately Tor 
 the value of his speech in this Hiuse, 
 dealt with what he supposed to be facts. 
 He told us something about the indobced- 
 ness of Quebec in general and his own 
 county in particular. He told us some 
 thing about the mortgages (m farms and 
 the men who are afraid to close mortgages, 
 and he said the Cr^dit-Foncier was in a 
 difficulty in consequence. Now, I happen 
 to have, luckily for the value of the debate 
 and luckily also lest the speech to which 
 we have just listined might have carried 
 away hon. gentlemen whc may, during 
 the ooursti of this discussion, have been 
 
 convtrtt'd to the views of the (l.ivein- 
 ment— I happen to have here thu Orddit. 
 F<jncier reports for 1891 ; and I find that 
 the number given of those in arrears, 
 against whom suits had to be be takttn, 
 is 21, and of these 14 paid up before the 
 execution of judgment, so that only 7 
 remained behind in meeting their engage- 
 ments ; and this in an uiiHunt (i loans 
 reaching a sum of $6,600,000 (Cheers). 
 It the rest of the hon. gei tleman's facts 
 are as shaky as those with regard to the 
 Cr^dit-Foncitr, the vwlue of his testimony 
 is very small indeed My ho!i friend 
 went on to speak of the exodus. I am 
 not going to deal with that subject. We 
 hear so much of it, th« dolefulness of it 
 is such that even my ht)n. friend from 
 Brant (Mr. Pattersoii), who lately has 
 become more cheerful, is sometimes 
 tempted to fall back upon it in order to 
 be in proper tune with his party. It has 
 lain so heavily on the soul of the hon. 
 member for North Noriolk (Mr. Charlton) 
 whom I do not see here, that he is pro- 
 bably cmfined to his room fcjr a few days. 
 We hear this d»»leful story about the 
 exodus and the condition of Canada year 
 after y«ar, while, as a fact, we know that 
 Canada is progressing, and no man who 
 goes through the country can fail to know 
 that it is progressiitg ; no man wliose eyes 
 are not wilfully closed can fail to see that 
 its productions are increasing and that 
 the comff>rt8 of lifn are more diftused, as 
 may be seen by the amount of raw cotton 
 imported to-day compared with ten years 
 ago, and the small prices at which cotton 
 sells as compared with ten years ago. The 
 hon. member for Sherbroike (Mr Ives), 
 the other evening went over the figures 
 in regard to these niatteis, figures Himilar 
 to those I had myself from an indepei dent 
 source, and there cannot be the least 
 duubt that we are progressing. What 
 these hon. gentlemen remind me of is a 
 story which those of us who have classical 
 reminiscences will lemember . I refer to 
 the old Gieek story of how Proteus sets 
 out to get the head of the (ilorg«»n, and he 
 has to go to hyperborean regions, behind 
 the north wind, to sbo the three grey 
 sisters and ask from them were he shall 
 find the Gorgon. And h^ finds th. thre«^ 
 
 A 
 
l\ 
 
 !.'iey siatera. ThtTu tlujy urn, luMieath 
 I)u5 iiM»f)ii, sittitiu nil ice. Tlioy have "iily 
 oiin eye ninnni; the throe, itiid one fnoth, 
 and tliey siii^ h doleful aonj/ of how the 
 oM dnys Wire better than the pieseiif, and 
 they hate the sun nnd the presence <)f this 
 your)fr, eni-r^etic Greek, halt divi'ie, and 
 of a heroism luivor surpassed — thia Pro- 
 teus who was bound on a moat diin^erous 
 task, to j^et the head of that Medusa, 
 which, once looked on, would turn the 
 onlooker into stone. The siyht of this 
 ener'^otic beinir an^.rs them like the sij^ht 
 of the sun, and they siny the same 
 monotonous wail of how the old times 
 were better than the presen , and how 
 they hate the sui: and the adventurous 
 hero. When Proteus intrudes on them 
 one wauls the eye that, she may see him, 
 !uul the otii'.ir wants the tooth that she 
 may bite dim, atid ihey pass the eye fn..;' 
 one to thf otht r, an<l they pass the tooth 
 frim one to the other, ju^t as ouf friv-iids 
 do herti. The tooth whicli out friends 
 pass round is the exodus, and the eye was 
 male ill a Yankee workshop jind c-m only 
 Sell ruin uwverythiiigCanailian. (Olieeis 
 an'i laufzhier). S'l'l they hate the sun, 
 the sun "f Canada's prosperity, which at 
 the present h"ur is shininy above them 
 biii/hr and ch-ai — aye, bright and clear 
 and ui, as nations g<i. an unclouded sky — 
 and the sun of th*: future n)ay b.' fnlt by 
 any man of propht-tic vision, any man of 
 pr 'phetic temperament, s^* t" speak ; but 
 liiey hate it all, and tt.ey sioy the same 
 dolt-ful Song of liow the old times of 
 deticitrt WBie bettei than these days. 
 (Cnt'His.) Sir, thehe men are political 
 fanatics who believt' in a Yankee millenium 
 and regard the city of VVashiM^ton as the 
 new Jerusaleni (Renewed cheers). The 
 hon. gentleman spoke about hay, and 
 horses, and eggs. He knows more about 
 civil law than he knows about tarihs <)n 
 horsi s. The case he mentions is evidently 
 one in which he was himself engaged, and 
 the witness he examined was probably a 
 witness in his own case, and as we some- 
 times have found —because 1 am a lawyer 
 myself and have examined a few witnesses 
 in my time— witnesses, although extremely 
 conscientious, will K-an a little ••' their 
 own interests, somewhat like t'he witness 
 
 that Daniel O'Corinel examined. lie 
 asked the witness, '* Of what profession 
 are you ? " The »nau did not understand ; 
 so at last O'Connell said : " I believe you 
 sell milk?' "Yes," he replied; and 
 then bonenth his breath he added, "and 
 water too" (Laughter.) No\7, here is 
 my hon. friend's calculation about horses. 
 He says that 1G,000 were soM to the 
 United States, of which 7,000 were sold 
 from the Province of Quebec. And he 
 asks. Can we go on ? And I am bound to 
 say — 1 do not wish to be offensive, but 
 wlu.'n a man is speaking froin a pessimistic 
 point of view it is a great advantage to 
 him to have been furnished by nature 
 with a certain dolefulness of personality — 
 and, 1 am bound to say that personality 
 added tremendously to the effect when 
 the hon. gentleman said : Can we go on ? 
 The McKinley tariff causes a diminution 
 "f 26 per cent, in value. Then the hon. 
 gentl'Mnan brings forward this voracious 
 witness whom he put into the box and 
 who says that he could have i/ot, before 
 the McKinley Bill became law, $120 for 
 the horse for which he could oidy now 
 get 390. Under the McKinley tariff, 
 horses up to $150 are charged $30 per 
 head, so that when you take off $30 from 
 $120 that leaves $1)0. But before the 
 McKinley Bill there was a duty of 20 per 
 cent, charged. That would be $24. The 
 diffeionce b. tweeii $24 :ind $30 is $6 
 (cheers,) so what you would have to take 
 off the $120 is $6, and that wouhl give 
 you $114 and not the $90 that this witness, 
 after the pa' tern that O'Connell has 
 immortalized, was imposing on my frierid 
 or some <thei- coiuisei. My hon. friend, 
 no doubt, IS a very good lawyer, but he 
 does not understand much political econo- 
 my, and it is as true in statesmanship as 
 it is in regard t(» lawyers and others — Jie 
 sutor. (Laughter and cheers.) VVith 
 your {)erinis8ion, I v/ill ask the House to 
 bear with me while I look at this resolu- 
 tion. It has been read several times, so I 
 will not read it again, but there are two 
 parts to it. There is the tirsi part which 
 says it is necessary to reduce the duty on 
 all the prime necessaries of life, and the 
 next part is that we should have the moot 
 extended trade relations in manufactures 
 
6 
 
 as well AS in imtural productH with the 
 United States. 1 atn not Koiii^ '<> he a 
 carpiiiK critic about words, but I may say 
 that A man with the ureat experieiico of 
 the hon. member fur South Oxford nii(;ht, 
 I think, have used more scientific phrase- 
 ology than "the most extondnd trade 
 relations." Why in one phrase lie could 
 have given us the statement that what we 
 want is absolute fre^ trade with the 
 Unitad States, Remeniber, the most 
 extended trade relations — however, that 
 is mere hypercriticiHm, and I never 
 descend to that. (Laughter.) To begin 
 with 1 object, as I believe others before 
 have objected in this debate, that that 
 language is vague. Hh says we should 
 reduce the duties. How far? By one 
 per cent. "J By Hve sixths of one per cen^? 
 By 20 per cent. 1 By how much ? Surely 
 in a resolution of this kind, which is to go 
 before the country, which is intended to 
 influence the people and be a text on 
 platform after platform, you should have 
 given the people something definite But 
 the main necessaries of life -what are 
 these? Why not mention them? They 
 cannot be many. But it is the main 
 necessaries oi life for the farmer, the 
 artizan, the fisherman, and the miner. 
 Visions ot fish hooks, of iron, of agricul- 
 tural implements, of bread, cheese, bacon, 
 a whole lot of things come before you. 
 (Hear, hear). 
 
 On what does the hon. g^mtleman want 
 the reduction ? Is it on bread ? He 
 cannot suppose that we want cheap bread 
 in this country when we export po much 
 wheat ? Is it iron ? My hon. friend from 
 Addington (Mr,, Dawson) spoke of iron. 
 It sat upon the hon. gentleman's soul that 
 the duty on iron was not reduced, or that 
 it was not let in absolutely free Sup- 
 pose we take iron. Are you eoing to 
 reduce the duty on that? Very well. 
 Then we come to the second part. You 
 want to reduce the duty on iron, aitd then 
 you vote on the resolution that you want 
 the most extended trade relations with the 
 United States! What does that mean< 
 Will anyone dare to say that you will not 
 have to build up a wall against the 
 importation of iron on the seaboard 
 exactly equal to that which they have in 
 
 the Uiiit.j'd States ? They want uiirestritM 
 rd reciprocity with the United States. 
 But the leaders in that country have 
 declared : '' Dt you suppose we are foola 
 to allow you Ciiiinucks, atid the Brilisheis 
 through y'-u Cannucks, to deluge our 
 country with ijoods from Birmingham 
 and Sheffield ? No ; you must have a 
 tariff like our own." Then, what does 
 the hon. inembur for Addingion and what 
 do all ihtirestof th« in want, ? (Cheers). 
 We have now a duty of $4 a ton. What 
 will they have to pay when this wall is 
 raised? T'ey will have to pay «, duty of 
 ${j a ton. iear, hear) That reasoning 
 applies to oiner art""!eM pro tanto. 1 ask 
 under which king ? 1 interrupted last, 
 night, I think not offensively, the hon. 
 rnember for Yarmouth (Mr. Flint) by 
 asking him, how can you do this and have 
 unrestricted reciprocity ? One after the 
 other has spoken "n that side, but not one 
 haw explain 'd how you are going to have 
 these duties reduced and then go into a 
 trade parmership with the United States, 
 for that in what it amounts to 
 
 Some hon. uieinbers. No. 
 
 Mr. Davin. No? 1 see that some hon. 
 gentlemen can make a cuckoo cry over 
 those bencht>s, but not one ;)f tiieni, 
 when challenged, can dare to show how 
 they are yitig to doit The leader of the 
 Opposition is there. He is an experi- 
 enced politiuiaii, he is a distinguished 
 lawyer, he is :t man of subtle intellect. I 
 defy him to sliow us how he is going to do 
 it, and I say to hiiii that, if he can 
 show how it c;in be done I will vole for 
 his motion. 
 
 Mr. Laurier I told you you were 
 boastlUif a fe* minutes hj^o. 
 
 Mr. Davin. You are not boast iui/ now, 
 because y u are evading the challenvje. 
 (Loud Ministerial cheers). Show me how 
 you can have unrestricted reciprocity with 
 the States without aflfectintj your tariff on 
 the seaboard. You ought to tiave shown 
 it, and the member for S mth Oxfoid 
 ought to have shown it when he tabled 
 that resolution. But when we challenged 
 him, what did he say 1 He said, in his 
 J- Uarly effective manner : I have not 
 been called in as a physician, but wtien I 
 am called ii.-, then I will prescribe. The 
 
^ h'»u. 
 
 imn, 
 how 
 • the 
 peri- 
 ihtid 
 I 
 
 ;<»do 
 can 
 for 
 
 w«re 
 
 now, 
 
 e liow 
 with 
 •iff on 
 ihown 
 >xf"id 
 tabled 
 len^esi 
 in hie 
 ve not 
 rhen I 
 The 
 
 htm. genth'iuan is not in that position. \. 
 physician who is not called in is a physi- 
 cian who does not speak about the case of 
 the patif.nt ; the physician who is not 
 called in has nothing to do with it. But 
 what has the hon gentleman done Y He 
 has thrust himself into the patient's room, 
 ho hits declarvd that he knew the disease, 
 and he has prescribed. But 1 will come 
 to the Hiti'eience, if there is any, between 
 what he has exactly done and what he has 
 not done. I will tell you what he has 
 done. Heliasdone prec . dywhtttisdoneby 
 any doctor who, when asked what are the 
 ingredients against earthquakes (l^iughter) 
 refuses to tell, and for the best reason in 
 the world — that he d"es not know. But 
 these doctors are usually quHck doctors. 
 (Renewed laughter.) In frict the hon. 
 gentleman reminds me ot a doctor we 
 have u|> somewhere near Regina. He 
 has a very peculiar notion about persons 
 sutf^f-ring from various diseases. Well, 
 there was a young lady who was supposed 
 to be suffering a little from constipation, 
 and he prescribed that she should swallow 
 a living frog. Well, it was impossible to 
 get over the aversion of the |)atient, and 
 equally impossible— supposing that aver- 
 sioii could be got over — that she could 
 swallow the frog, because her larynx is 
 not <)xtra«>dinarily larjjie, and the doctor 
 nevei" explained how that could bo done. 
 But h<) went about saying that she must 
 swallow a live frog or she would die ; yet 
 the youne lady tiips round and the 
 freshness of her complexion, the bright- 
 ness of her eye, and the quickness of her 
 Hfep show that she has a gof»d appetite, 
 is well fed, has a good dige»tio,), &c , &c. 
 (Loud cheers and laughter) and her name 
 is Miss Canada. (Cheers) What does 
 the member for South Oxford say further 1 
 He gives you an array of duty paid <m 
 this article, of duty paid on the other, and 
 all coming out of the pockets of the 
 tax- payers, every penny of it, he says. I 
 admit, he says, I have never denied it, 
 thai these taxes are paid by the consumer ; 
 but, he says, they aie paid by the 
 producer too. So that you have here a 
 series of taxes and you have this peculiar 
 phenomenon in political economy — 
 Mr. McMullen. Finish your frog story. 
 
 Mr. Davin. Don't you croak too much. 
 (Laughter.) In 1882, when I was sitting 
 next to my hon. friend the Minister of 
 Custouis, and the hon member for South 
 Oxford was replying to Sir Charles 
 Tupper. he said : '* I have never denied, 
 and I admit it and declare it, that the 
 c<msumer pays the duty just as often as 
 the »arth goes round the sun, and the 
 producer pays the duty jus*^ as often as 
 the sun go«)s round the earth." But now 
 he has advanced in his astronomy. He 
 WPS a disciple of Gallilec when he declared 
 that, but now he declares that not only 
 does the ea i no round the sun but that 
 the sun goex /ound the earth (laughter and 
 cheers), that is to say, that the consumer 
 payn the duty and the producer pays the 
 duty too, which, in the colloquial language 
 I used to hear in other days, is ''consum- 
 edly" absurd. (Cheers.) Now, I will 
 not go into the question of how much the 
 farmer wc^uld be affet'^ed, supposing it 
 possible — 
 
 Mr. Mc Mullen. Tell us the .^rog story 
 again. 
 
 Mr. Davin. My hon. friend wants me 
 to finish the frog story ; but you see, Mr. 
 Speaker, that not only has the hon. 
 membtr for South Oxford, in the process 
 of evolution, gone from the astronomical 
 tlieory that the earth goes round the sun, 
 but he now has got so far as to say that 
 the sun goes round the earth as well, and 
 my hon. friend from North Wellington is 
 also in a process of evolution. The other 
 night he was a tadpole ; a few minutes 
 a^o you heard from his peculiar croak 
 that he was just on the bridge between 
 the tadpole stage and the frog stage, and 
 now we find from the sound of the last 
 croak that the full grown toad stage has 
 been reached. (Laughter and cheers.) 
 Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for 
 South Oxford makes the same statement 
 again and again about the North- West. 
 It has been made by others. I do not 
 think it has ever yet been properly 
 answered. He says in his speech that 
 in one way and another we have spent 
 at least a hundred millions of public 
 money in the North- West. 
 
 Mr. Choquette. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. Davin. Well, Mr. Speaker, I am 
 
 ■a 
 
8 
 
 very glad thut there is so able aiul ilis- 
 
 tinjijuiahed a supporter of the ineiDVier for 
 
 South Oxford here, when I am about to 
 
 arraign his calculation. The njember for 
 
 South Oxford makes the statement, but 
 
 he never gives us the least proof. He 
 
 goes about the country in the same vay ; 
 
 he comes here and he never givei us the 
 
 least proof. He comes out with bundles 
 
 of papers, he hovers around the question, 
 
 he pumps up tho most violent ep'hets he 
 
 can possibly Hnd in the deep recesses of 
 
 his abyssmal hatred of everything Tory. 
 
 (Laughter and cheers.) He goes on in 
 that style, then he pours out hunematious 
 about the safety of the country, and he 
 does not give you the least proof. Thu 
 most delightful thing about it 's this, that, 
 his followers take him an serienx ; they 
 think him a great statesman ; and ho 
 himself has not the leas>t suspicion of the 
 thoroughly ridiculous character of his 
 position. (Uheers.) Now, Sir, what did 
 the Canadian Pacific Railway c^ist us? 
 Some $55,000,000, as my hon. friend from 
 Lisgar (Ross) very properly pointed out 
 yesterday. How does the hon. gentleman 
 get $100,000,000 then for the North- West 
 alone? It must be by adding on the 
 land, the land, that is to say, that lias 
 come wholly from the North- VVest. 
 Suppose I concede to him, for argumei^t's 
 sake, that he has a right to say that 
 $100,000,000 have been spent in ttie 
 North- West, then I will show him th^t he 
 has not one tittle of ground to stand upon 
 in saying that the North West has been 
 a burden to Canada. This sum is arrived 
 at by treating the land subsidies ?»nd 
 railways as mt)ney spent, but this sum of a 
 hundred millions, if it is to be admitted 
 as correct, has given us a return. From 
 Red Riv'.r to the foot of the Rockies, 
 that is, in the North- West proper, the 
 Canadian Pacific Railwiy has cost to 
 cons; ruct $15,767,419, as the hon. member 
 for Lisgar (i»Ir. Ross) pointed out very 
 properly yesterday. The land subsidy to 
 the Canadian Pacific Railway was 18,206.- 
 986 acres, which at $2 per acre would 
 amount to $36,413,972. Deduct ihe 
 
 1^15,767,419 It cost in couutructioii., and 
 
 jou will find a t)aianc^3 of $20,646,553, 
 
 which is what the North VVest gave 
 
 towards the construction of tho Canadian 
 
 Pacific Railway in the older provinces, as 
 
 was yesterday most correctly and elo 
 
 quently pointed out by the hon. meuil)er 
 
 for Lisgar. The value of the new towns 
 
 and villages in the North West brought 
 
 into existence by the Canadian Pacific 
 
 Railway may be safely placed at $80,000, 
 000. It is more than that, but I put it at 
 $80,000,000. I am in a positi(»n to prove 
 by actuarial e^tinmtes that that is correct 
 A railway i.-^ said to afi'ect land 20 miles 
 on each iiide. The rjiilway inileage of the 
 North-VVest is 2,318 miles Take $1 
 [)ei- arre hs the value ad(ied to the land att'ec- 
 ted by this niileaye. and we have an acidi- 
 tional value of $59,340,800. Admitting 
 the figures of the hon member for S'Uth 
 Oxford, what do we hwe ? The accounts 
 stand : To public money sunk in North- 
 West, acconiinji to the ho- . ::'Htub(-r for 
 Sourh Oxford. $100,000,000 Bv nalance 
 of land subsidy .'iven by the North West 
 Territ())ie3 t"W;iids con.st ruction of Cana- 
 dian Pacific Railway in older provinces, 
 $20,646,553. Value of new towns created 
 by Canadian Pacific Railway in the 
 North West, $80,000,000 .Additional 
 
 value of $1 per acre, to lands affected by 
 railways in the North West, $59,340,800, 
 or a total of $159,986,353 To this must 
 be added the new wealth crentfid by 
 railroads in the North West other than 
 the Canadian Pacific RailwHy, the increase 
 in the valut; of f)roperty in the older 
 provinces caused by the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway, and the benefits direct ai.d 
 indirecc of the Canadian Pacific Railway 
 to the whole Dominioii, none of which 
 can be put into figures, but it is safe to 
 say that for the outlay of $100,000,000 
 the country has received a leturn < f over 
 2^0 per cent. The hon. member for 
 South Oxford (Sir Richaid Caitwright), 
 goes (m to say : 
 
 "Have wenotgotouf own North- West census 
 returns taken four or Ave years apro, which 
 show that we have succeeded in pflacinu: perhaps 
 9,000 families in the North- West and Manitoba 
 in five years." 
 
1,553, 
 irave 
 iidiati 
 es, as 
 
 towns 
 ouglit 
 'acific 
 
 1,000, 
 
 It it at 
 provH 
 
 Dl'l'fCt 
 
 miK^s 
 .if the 
 ke U 
 d attt.' I'- 
 ll aildi- 
 iiittiiiij; 
 'S-uth 
 BCdUntS 
 North - 
 ibi,r for 
 Inalaiice 
 
 1 VV»-8t 
 
 f Cana- 
 ivincea, 
 Ciented 
 ill the 
 iitiuiml 
 i'.ted hy 
 ;40,800, 
 is must 
 
 r thati 
 nctease 
 • ilder 
 Pacitic 
 ct ai.d 
 Llailway 
 which 
 safe to 
 1000,000 
 « f over 
 for 
 right), 
 
 1st census 
 which 
 ; perhaps 
 lanitoba 
 
 tn.l 
 
 9 
 
 I look at the North- West census, and 
 
 what do I find? That our North- West 
 
 census returns show that there was an 
 
 increase of 72,600 souls, or, at 5 to a 
 
 family, 14,620 families. However, 5 to a 
 family is too large a proportitjn for a new 
 A country, and the number of families was 
 ^ certainly much larger. Besides that, we 
 have to deplore, and I deplore I have not 
 tried to mend it by example, a lar^e 
 bachelor immigration. But I remember, 
 at the hospitable board of Mr. Manning, 
 of Toronto, some years ago, telling a 
 witty young lady of the poet Goethe, how 
 in his old age when on the verge of the 
 grave he was as attractive to the fair sex 
 as in his youth, and I said to her : " The 
 flowers of love sometimes bloom tm the 
 brink of the grave." "Ah," she said, 
 "Mr. Ptiviu, the frost I think, would 
 go hard with those flowers." (Laughter.) 
 The frost goes hard with life in the North - 
 West, as I can testify from observation, 
 where lovely woman is not found. I have 
 been in many homes, sometimes in bache- 
 lors' homes, sometimes in homes where 
 there are families and where woman is, 
 and you can have no idea of the difference. 
 But women are now coming. Men are 
 going East and bringing back wives, and 
 in the North West, in defiance of the 
 breeze ^nd blizzards, when lovely woman 
 once appears, homes happy, cntented, 
 and prosperous spring up beautiful and 
 bright as are to be found in the world. 
 (Cheers). Then the hon. member for 
 South Oxford claims an annual expendi 
 ture — and again I call the attention of 
 the House to this— of $7,000,000 r)n the 
 North-We-^t, of which ^,000,000 is 
 interest on the alleged outlay of $100,- 
 000,000, It has been shown that that 
 outlay has returned $200,000,000, in 
 which case tiie $4,000,000 becomes inter- 
 est received instead of paid Now let uie 
 read sonie tables 1 have prepared to show 
 the annual revenue and expenditure for 
 11 years for the North- West. The postal 
 revenue and expenditure I pla o in a 
 separate table, as no sane man. would 
 expect the one to cover the other, or to 
 return anything. Now, Sir, here is the 
 revenue derived from Manitoba and the 
 
 North- West Territories from 1880 to 1890 
 inclusive : 
 
 Year. 
 
 Customs 
 
 9 
 
 322,268 
 473,230 
 1,108,679 
 1,883. «56 
 735,548 
 589,208 
 488,144 
 523,131 
 469.886 
 574,536 
 674,000 
 
 Excise. 
 
 66,328 
 97,875 
 157,412 
 185.367 
 157,216 
 148.178 
 172,239 
 211.070 
 187.910 
 227,289 
 254,109 
 
 Domln. 
 T lands. 
 
 $ 
 
 202,165 
 201.052 
 1,795.047 
 1,042,6.58 
 992,556 
 439,494 
 394,585 
 .568.990 
 563.709 
 588,862 
 454,327 
 
 Total. 
 
 1880 
 
 1881 
 
 1882 
 
 1883 
 
 188- 
 
 1886 
 
 1886 
 
 1887 
 
 1888 
 
 1889 
 
 1890 
 
 590,761 
 773,067 
 3,061,138 
 3.061,681 
 1.885,320 
 1,176.880 
 1,054,986 
 1,303.191 
 1,221,505 
 1,390.687 
 1,382,436 
 
 Totals . . . 
 
 7,792,286 
 
 1,864 993 
 
 7,244,345 
 
 16,901,624 
 
 That is not bad from a country which was 
 without any railway communication with 
 t!ie <mter w irld until 1878, when the 
 corduroy railway of the hon. member for 
 East York (Mr. Mackenzie) went bumping 
 int«) Winnipeg. (Cheers.) What was the 
 expenditure in Manitoba and th« North 
 Weat durin"^ the ten years from 1880 to 
 1890? I will not go into details, but I 
 wilt give it in a lump sum. You had an 
 expenditure for Indians of $10,467,634 ; 
 and you may remember that we are not 
 chargeable with that, for these Indians 
 are the wards of the whole Uominion of 
 Tanada, and if you never got a cent return 
 for that expenditure you could not treat 
 these people with neglect. For Mounted 
 Police we spent $6,776,007 in these ten 
 years, and for the Dotuinion Lands 
 $1,696,394, a total of $18,940,035 If we 
 deduct the revenue fr«»m that we have 
 $2,033,511 lett as a loss -if the hon. 
 gentleman wishes to ca'l it so — but, aa I 
 have shown, it is auiply met by other 
 consideratK ns. Now, Sir, with such a 
 8>iowing ris that, what are you to think of 
 the hon. ge.itleman who perpetually talks 
 of Manitoba and the Not th West as if it 
 were a dead Iosa upon the hands of the 
 Dominion, and in fact, when we first came 
 down here we used to be told : " We 
 bought you ; you are our posseasion ; we 
 purchasea you." As a matter of fact, Sir, 
 if you could get all the statistics of the 
 value that the North- West is to Canada, 
 
10 
 
 you would find that at the present moment 
 we are payini; our way pretty well. But 
 the hon. member for South Oxford (Sir 
 Richard Cartwright) in the manner in 
 which he deals with the North West, is 
 like an exacting father who has a prosper 
 ous and successful son, and who yet is 
 never content with the way things go on. 
 Now, Sir, the total postal revenue in the 
 North- West and Manitoba for these ten 
 years I have referred to was $1,212,000. 
 and the total postal expenditure was 
 $2,241,202 ; leaving a loss in that respect 
 of $828,980. Nobody supposes tha* that 
 is a serious matter in dealing with the 
 postal service, for I believe there are parts 
 of Canada long settled where the postal 
 service does not pay; and we must 
 remember chat the postal service in a.::y 
 part of Canada cannot be properly con- 
 sidered a local service. (Hear, hear.) In 
 order to have the postal service complete 
 you must reach every civilized part of he 
 country, or otherwise your postal service 
 in the more thickly settled part of the 
 country would not V" effective. Therefore 
 you can never take a profit and loss 
 estimate of this service in any given part 
 of the country. That is a point which I 
 particularly wish to impress upon the 
 attention of the House. I do not think 
 that I have had an opportunity before of 
 showing how absurd were the figures of 
 the hon. member for South Oxford (Sir 
 Richard Cartwright), but the least analysis 
 of the situation shows that his figures and 
 his calculations are utterly absurd. Mr. 
 Speaker, I do hope that when gentlemen 
 come to speak of that great country in the 
 North- West, which is bound up with the 
 future of Canada more than any other 
 
 Eart of the whole Dominion, because ic 
 as put back-bone into this Dominion ; I 
 do hope that they will escape their sense 
 of despair, chat they will forget their 
 feeling of gloom, and that they will 
 separate themselves from these pessimistic 
 views they have been accustomed to ; and 
 that they will allow the light of hope and 
 of confidence to break in upon them. It 
 is not in the partizan manner in which 
 this discussion has been conducted that 
 we should talk at this hour, when we 
 stand on a height of prosperity that thirty 
 
 years ago could never have been antici- 
 pated, a height of prosperity from which 
 we can see further heights, peak rising 
 beyond peak, on which the light of suns 
 that we may not enjoy are already bbam- 
 ing. I say, Sir, that the proper way 
 would be to approach the great problems 
 that are before us as brethren engaged in 
 the great task of building up this young 
 nation. That is the proper feeling to 
 have. We should remember that after all 
 we troad a land that has been trodden 
 from the very first by heroes. This is a 
 young country, but it has a historic past. 
 The men who first explored it were as 
 truly heroes as any men who ever lived in 
 any country, and from Jacques Cartier 
 down, there has been no age in which we 
 have not had men worthy of historical 
 position. When you come to the time 
 when there was a contest as to what race 
 would predominate hemes fought and fell 
 on each side. When you come to the war 
 of 1812 you have for so small a war a 
 larger number of distinguished figures 
 than has ever graced the history of a 
 similar epoch ; and when you come to our 
 last little struggle on the banks of the 
 !^askatchewan it was not merely fight, 
 but it was that in che depths of winter 
 our young men, youths unused to arms, 
 inarched there in the face of great diffi- 
 culties, over hundreds of miles of ice and 
 snow, because they wanted to build up a 
 nation. Would to Heaven that we might 
 discuss the issues in this House in tl e 
 same spirit, as I hope any of us would go, 
 taking our lives in our hands, into the 
 battle for the country in which we live. 
 I remember, Mr. Speaker, in 1870, when 
 I went to Paris to go to the front with 
 McMahon. Just before the last regi- 
 ments left for the front there was exhibit- 
 ed in one of the windows a splendid 
 painting representing on the right of the 
 canvas the armies of the Empire crossinf 
 the Rhine at Ehrenbreitztein, and on the 
 left of the canvas you saw rising before 
 them the ghosts of the triumphant repub- 
 licans of the Napoleonic era, beckoning 
 their descendants to crocs that river, and 
 to advance to battle- fields, and to win 
 victories where they had won them. But 
 Sir, that army did not win victories, and 
 
11 
 
 n antici 
 )ni which 
 ik rising; 
 b of suns 
 iy bbaiu- 
 )per way 
 problems 
 Imaged in 
 [lis young 
 aeling to 
 t after all 
 trodden 
 This is a 
 oric past, 
 were as 
 r lived in 
 3 Cartier 
 which we 
 historical 
 the time 
 what race 
 t and fell 
 io the war 
 a war a 
 i figures 
 ory of a 
 me to our 
 ks of the 
 Bly fight. 
 [)f winter 
 to arms, 
 reat diffi- 
 )f ice and 
 )uild up a 
 we might 
 le in tie 
 ^ould go, 
 I, into the 
 I we live. 
 570, when 
 tront with 
 last regi- 
 es exhibit- 
 splendid 
 jht of the 
 e crossinpf 
 ad on the 
 ing before 
 mt repub- 
 beckoning 
 river, and 
 d io win 
 em. But 
 ories, and 
 
 why ? It was not because they were not 
 '»r the same heroic race. No ; they had 
 become luxurious ; they had lost faith : 
 and therefore they were beaten. I hope 
 that here m Canada amongst our politi- 
 cians there will be the same faith thai was 
 shown amongst the young soldiers of our 
 country to whom I have referred. If we 
 have faith in the future of Canada, we can 
 advance with confidence against any diffi- 
 
 culty that may be before us, and there is 
 no blessing of a free country, no art in 
 which any people ever excelled, and no 
 Height to which 9ny nation ever climbed 
 that we may not reach by ambition ; and 
 without the least presumption of boast- 
 
 fH!;nT;i»S° t'" *^^ >n8"aKe of my hon. 
 friend (Mr. Laurier), aspire to, and with 
 certainty attain. (Loud and prolonged