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Sir OHARLSS HIBBEKT TUrPER. Mr. Speaker, I was very glad to bear the Solicitor General (Mr. Fitzpatrick) to-night. I waited patiently to have my curiosity gratified on this question. I desire to know, if possible, whether the Solicitor General of Canada ever had anything to do with the contract that is now before this ParliamoLt for Its approval. I was satisfied, from the speech of the hou. M'nister of Railways; (Mr. Blair), that he. to some extent, had exoner- ated his department from the rosponslbility of ever having been consulted with regard to a clause or a line of that contract ; and I waited, with some Inrterest. to know whe- ther the Department of Juiitlce had ever been referred to in connection with this astounding document— for never from the hands of any government in any province of Canada, or of Canad^ Itself, or of the gov- ernment of any counffy with the history of which I am familiar, has there come such a miserable, lame, halting, humiliating dotu- ment as this Mann & Mackenzie contract, so far as the responsibility of the Government introducing it is concerned. Interesting as was the speech of the Solicitor General. I cannot, I am sure, be consider»^d as taking extreme ground when I say that that hon. gentleman gave less aiiontlon to the con- tract and the- terms of the contract than he did to the very interesting historical and diplomatic matters which only bear Incident- ally upon this question. Upon the Interna- tional law that, the hon. gentleman laid down, variom^ositlons may be taken. But, when we come to the very important ques- tion to the people of Canada as to the terms of this contract^^ifelt that he was skating on thin ice. I will do him the justice to say tliat he felt the awkwardness of his posi- tion, and so sheltered himself by saying— and saying very quickly— that the details of the contract are to be discussed hereafter. I venture to reply to him, to-night, that. In the opinion of most of the business men of Canada, it would have been better If the de- tails of the contract had been considered be- fore ; it would have been better had the Gov- ernment had the advice of the paid, and well paid, advisers of the Government In connec- tion with the contract Let us consider that question, for It is a'ft^-actical one, and It meets us at the outse^. I have said to-night that it is a guess, but, I think, a reasonable guess, that the Minister of Railways and his department knew nothing of this con- tract at all until the position of the Gov- ernment was taken with regard to it. I shall be contradicted, of course, by the Min- ister of Railways, who is present, if I am wrong, when I state, subject to his corree- tlon. that there Is not In the Railway De- partment, nor was there obtained from It, a report or advice as to the tei-ms or draft- ing of these different clauses, or of any V y clause, lu the Mann & Mackenzie oontract. And we pay on engineering expert ?(s,(X)0 a year, or thereabouts, to advise the Minister of Railways of the day on this and all simi- lar questions. I venture to say, in tk^ pre- sence of the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Si f ton), and subject to correction, that, while we have in his depailMent highly- paid officials— for instance, Mr. Dawson, who Is known all over this country, and known among the scientists of the British Empire— we had not the oeneflt of the o,>lnion of any of those experts in mining matters as to a single clause of the contract or of the con- tract as a whole. And to-night it is clear. It doe#not require argument, after the speech of the Solicitor General, that, not only was the Department of the Minister of Justice passed over in the arruni?ement of the terms of this contract, but the Solicitor General himself w^as so ignored that he Is unable to deal with that contract or to de- fend It, or take up the dlfCeront points in de- bate, but has sought to shelter the Govern- ment and himself by putting o|f the evil day until we reach another stage, and go Into committee. The SOLICITOR GENPJRAL. Allow me to nsk the hou. gentleman whether the posi- tion I have taken is not correct, that on the second reading of the Bill the principle of the Bill alone Is to be discussed ? Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. Quite so. I wish to deal candidly with the hon. gentleman. That Is the rule, but the principle of the Bill is the all-Canadian route, the principle of this Ettt^oncerns the operation of a railway, the principle of this Bill, if It has any principle, deals with the selection of the lands belgnging to the peo- ple of Canatiii ; and In regard to all these principles the hon. gentleman says : The Government Avill give you Information as to the legislation they propose In this House after you have voted blindfolded for the second reading. They have studiously re- frained from giving us the draft of any of the amendments that we have forced them to tell us they will make on these verj vital phases of the Bill. Day after day when they have found the weakne.ss of their posi- tion was CO apparent that it were monstrous to attempt to hold to It, they have told us ; We will alter all that If you will only let it go past the second reading. They will come doMti, as some hon. gentleman says. But here in connection with these vltalfeatures of the Bill, comes the confession of the Solicitor General, and he was wise to make It, that knowing so little about It, never having been consulted about It, he is unable to deal with the terms of these clauses, until they have been put before the House. Then what have v e here except a statement that Macknzle & Mann are going to run tre- mendous risks, risks that no other people, apparentJy, in the world would think of running, and that we are giving them a vast amount of property. It may be worth hun- dreds of millions, It may be wojlh not a song ; and the terms and conditions have been so hastily considered that the people of Canada, and the Parliament of Canada, let alone being advised after Parliament was assembled, will know nothing de.lultely until Parliament votes that they will trans- fer to Messrs. Mackenzie & Mann this large amount of gold-bearlug territory In Canada If they will build this railroad, the condi- tions- of the whole thing to be considered and to be discussed hereafter. There never was such a proposition as that made In this House, certainly since I have been In It, and I have yet to hear of any proposition concerning the construction of any railway that was ever introduced with such a limi- ted apology. Now, Mr. Speaker, I follow- ed the hon. gentleman's speech, and I must say that It Is an alarming condition of af- fairs that any number of gentlemen sitting on the Treasury benches should assume that they command sufflcient confidence in this House of Commons that they can come down with such a proposition as Is now befoK) us, involving technical questions, Involving most difficult legal problems, Involving great legal questions in International law, and yet have to say that Into those questions as a whole they have not looked. Into *'^.ose ques- tions they hold their Individual opli^lons, and as I shall show, the members on the Treasury benches are contradicting each other as fast as they speak, and although, It Is true, they have not spoken so very frequently on this subject. That they should come down and tell us, that In regard to this momentous sub- ject they cannot give us that which ourely we are entitled to, even If they did not re- quire the opinions of these different experts In the service of the Government, I say It Is extraordinary ; and when you add to that the secrecy of the whole thing, add to that the temper of these gentlemen, the violence cf these gentlemen, when Mr. Hamilton Smith's name is mentioned, or the name of any man who would like to give Canada more for the money and upset this secret bargain, this bargain made in the dark, this bargain made without the benefit of legal advice, or engineering advice, or the advice of mining experts— I say the position is be- wildering. At a previous occasion this ses- sion I opened my obsei-vatlons, and I take back none of them, by saying that I was going to make no chiwges against this Ad- mluLstratlon, nor will T do so, of corruption, or of nefarious conduct, on mere suspicion, and that I would wait for evidence. Well I may not have evidence upon which to make a certain and direct charge cf cor- ruption, but I am bound to say liere, speak- ing emphatically, that I see no other alter- native except to indict the Government for the most monstrous ignorance, and a reck- lessness that is tantamount to criminal. If they have not been corrupt, Intentionally corrupt. If they have not been perpetrators of a huge Job, If they are not attempting to perpetrate it now, their Ignorance ia such that It is almost criminal ; and 1 hope be- fore I get through my observations to be able to show that I have some ground for impaling these hon. gentlemen on either horn of the dilemma, and they can choose upon which to remain. The Solicitor Gen- eral, to whom I must first pay some atten- tion, ventured to taimt the leader of the Opposition with a change of base, a change of opinion. Hon. gentlemen opposite, when in a dlfHeult position of this kind, have been eager to refer to the endorsement which they claim the leader of the Opposition at one time gave to this scheme. Well, coming from tlie Solicitor General I suppose he is un authority on a change of base. I sup- pose there is no man in this House who ever pledged himself to a certain course and then took a more opposite course than the Solicitor General. The SOLICITOR GENERAL. I challenge that stntement, let us set that at rest now. Last session when that statement was made, I said in the House that the gentleman to whom I gave that pledge was the best judge as to whether I had fulfilled it. I made that stattmont publicly, and I challenge hon. gentlemen on the other side to show that it has never been carried out or ful- filled. Sir CHARLES HIBBBRT TUPPER. If the hon. gentleman would go further and state what the pledge was, and then what he did, it would be unnecessary for me to say any more. I do not wish to misrepre- sent the hon. gentleman., The SOLICITOR GENERAL. You are doing it now. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. But I am basing my criticipms upon the remarks tJ"* hon. gentleman made, and if he will t' us what the pledge was and what he did, I will uoc add another word. But let us see whether he is fair. In the first place when the leader of the Opposition gave an opinion upon that subject, he had not this contract before him any more than the Soli- citor General had ; he, no more than the Solicitor General, ever dreamed that the €olleagues of the Solicitor General would go about so serious a matter as this without any understanding, or any reliable arrange- ment with the peopled who had it in their power to thwart and destroy the whole scheme, whether right or wrong. Many things have occurred and have been explain- ed to this House, which would enable gen- tlemen who had formed an opinion at the outset, to change it and to deserve com- mendation for the change. If I recollect aright the leader of the Opposition at the time to which the Solicitor General referred, laid great stress on this work being vigor- ously pi'essed forward as a Government work ; but surely no man who heard the Sir C H T-li leader of the Opposition dissect the terms of that contract, and no gentlemen in this House, the Solicitor General himself Inclu- ded would be so mad as to contend that, having the information he had when he made his speech, he could have possibly entertained the opinion for a single moment to which the hon. gentleman referred. That information was such as to lead him, and to lead a great many gentlemen on this side of the House, and outside of the House al- together, to only one opinion, and that was in copdemnatlon of this extraordinary proposition. Then the hon. gentleman re- fers to the action of the United States Sen- ate as having been brought about at the instigation of the Opposition. An hon. MEMBER. Hear, hear. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. It was the Opposition of a faw years ago, and the hon. genUeman who said " hear, j hear," knows It was correct. The Oppo- i sitlon for many years In this House and out of it took such a course, as has al- ready been explained, so as to lead any man who follows Canadian affairs to believe that the moment those hon. gentlemen occu- pied the Treasury benches, then every de- sire that had been nursed in the breast of many American citizens to get advan- tages at the cost of Canada out of Canada would be granted. Those hon. gentlemen were willing to compromise us or to grant concessions at our expense time and again. 7^'he St. Thomas speech and the Chicago interview mentioned this afterno'>n should have flrevented the Solicitor General mak- ing so reckless a statement, unless when be referred to the Opposition, he meant the Liberal Opposition of a few years ago. I have some reason, however, to quarrel with the Solicitor General for the manner in which he has dealt, with a subject which in his hands I think he ouglit to have ex- ercised more candour .about tii.it than he did. The hon. gentleman was hard driven when speaking for the Government of Canada he gave such a representation of the authori- ties on international law as he did when discussing the Treaty of 1871, and the rights of upper proprietors of a ilver in regard to navigation over the river below when It went through another country to tliat to which the upper part of the river belonged. Tihe hon. gentleman referred to Wheaton. Wheaton, of course, was "an American au- thority. He referred also to Pliilllmore and 1 am bound to suppose that he seemed to me to make a most unfair statement of Phllllmore's opinion, because in that state- ment—and he would not otherwise have re- ferred to It— he made It appear that Phllll- more and Wboaton agreed, and every one knows that PhlUlmore was a great author- ity on International law. Let us see ex- actly what the passage to which the hon. gentleman referred was, and then we will understand to what desperate straits the V4VJ24 m^ mm hon. gentleman Is driven. He quoted from chapter 5, paragrnpb 107, and he made this citation In connection with Wb-^tou, where he explains the well known view of writers on International law In the United States, and a few authorities on the continent. The SOLICITOR GENERAL. Was PhllU- more an American ? Sir CHARLES HIBBBRT TUPPEiB. I said that this view was peculiar to United States writers and to some writers on the continent who agreed with them but that It was opposed totally and alisoluitely to the views of English writers on international law. The SOLICITOR GENERAL. With one exception, and that Is Hall. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. The hon. gentleman did not refer to Hall, but I will do so. Hall Is an undoubted author- ity on International law, and he Is quoted at all great meetings of International law- yers. This was the section to which the hon. gentleman referred, but he did not read It, and that circumstance makes it necessary for me to read It, not the whole of it, but the conclusion. The hon. gen- tleman referred to the contention, not to PhilUmore's opinion : It has been conten'led that the principle of this law has been eng^rafted upon International law, and that it is a maxim of that law that the ocean is free to all mankind, and rivers to all riparian inhabitants. After stating that that was the contention, at the end of the very paragraph to *ivhlch the hon. gentleman alluded, this Is what Phllllmore tells us : For the reason of the thing, and the opinion of other jurists, speaking generally, seem to agree in holding that the right can only be what Is called (however improperly) by Vattel and other writers imperfect, and that the state through whose domain the passage is to be made must be the sole Judge as to whether it be inno- cent or injurious In its character. Between Vattel, Phllllmore and Hall and the advisers of the Crown In England there is no disputfe whatever In regard to that proposition. Would It be believed that the Government have got in this position, that the al)lest man among them, their re- presentative on legal questions, had to quote or deemed It necessary to quote from that paragraph of Phllllmore to support the American doctrine that Wheaton lays down, when PhilUmore's opinion 's as different from thaJt of Wheaton as are the poles asund*>*. Referring to Hall, It ds not neces- sary for me to speak of his standing as a writer or the position given to him at dllfei'ent times by the Imperial Govern- ment. Dealing with the contenitlon— the very contention of Wheaton— -In respect to the River St. La wrence and the contention of the Americans -with respect to that river and the Mississippi, which subjects are considered by Hall, at the end of a long review, he says : England, again, has always steadllr refused to conce'ie the navigation of the St. Lawrence to the United Stat I'ulted States, lliat was rosistetl for i a long time by the Bi-itisli Gi.verniueiif, and : wliloli ended in a payment. Hall, after re- viewing the claim and knowing of the pay- ment, as a writer on International Law, higher than oven liord Salisbury himself— as I iim stire the Solicitor General will ad- mit—says : There can be no question that no more could be denmndetl titan that American citizens should not be subject to laws or roKulatlona, either affecting them alone, or ena.:ted for the purposa of puttlnf? them at a dlsadvantt je. He precedes that by aaying : That the American Government should have put the claim Is scarcely Intelligible. The SOLICITOR GENERAL. But It was paid. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. Loyal as I am to the British Crown, I would be sorry to admit that every time England 'las conceded '\ i)oint that lias been demand- ed from her, the concession was based upon principles of international law. In support of that opinion, I can call to my aid the Minister of Trade and Comiuerce (Sir Rich- ard Cartwright) and the Hon. Edward Blake who have on more than one occasion stated that England had conceded even to the i United States wliat the United States was i not entitled to demand, and that these con- cessions had been made at the cost of Can- i ada on one or two memorable occasions. j The hon. the Solicitor General will see that the Fortune Bay decision settles nothing, I because the facts, that Instead of England acting in the "ssertion of these municipal regulations— for they were municipal regula- 1 tions that were viol.ated by the American ' tlshermenS-England was dealing with a I claim made on account of great violence done to .\nierican fishermen in Fortune Bay. by sul)jects of England. The hon. the Solicitor General shakes his head. Tlie SOLICITOR GENERAL. Yes, I have the text here. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. I know the text. I have been over that case time and again, and I can tell the Solicitor General that the damages paid were for the fish that had been lost, the flsh that would have been caught were it not for the* vio- lence of the mob which cut the nets and freed the fish that were caught by the Am- ericans while exercising as they claimed their right under the treaty. There Is no doubt thnt the damages were paid, but they •were paid for the acts of the mob and not for the acts of the officers. The SOLTCITOR GENERAL. I under- stand my hon. friend to say, that the claim was one for violence. The complaints wen; of two clasHeH. First, it i.s alleKod tiint vio- lence was used. The otiier complaint did not charge vlolonco, but charged simply tbat American Hshermcu, having treaty author- ity, were forbidden to fish In certain locali- ties. • Sir CHARLES IIIBBERT TUPPER, Tlie danger in this case is for the Solicitor Gen- eral to read only a scrap of the correspond- ence ; but I again tell the Solicitor Gen- eral, that if he will take that correspond- ence as a whole, he will And, as I have told him. that the damage was done by this mob, and by uo olficer of the law or of the British Government, cutting nets, letting ttsh loose, and HO on. I am satisfied, that if he takes the papers and reads them through, he will come to the conclusion that Hall came to. that It was an uuintelligible thing, even under those clrcumstHUces, that the Ameri- cans should malie tlie claim which England paid. But at that time tlie Americans were feeling sore for the payment of .^.'j.OOO.CH'O "0 Canada and Newfoundland, and there was, perhaps, a question of expediency un- derlying all this, that a certain amount of money ought to go back or remain in the United States Treasury. Then. 1 propose to deal, a little later on, with another position which, I think, the hon. Solicitor General was entirely unwar- ranted in taking— that we are bound to as- sume that the United States will observe treaties as construed by us or by England. They nvill observe the treaties as they con- strue them, or as they think they ought to be eonstnied. That we all know ; but no one knows better than the Solicitor General that here is the greatest difficulty to get minds to agree upon the construction of a treaty, and there Is no greater difficulty any- where in this respect than with the United States of America. While \ve may Join in expressing the belief, as a matte*- o* polite- ness, that the Americans will observe trea- ties, it Is another question whether we should risk money or a great deal of money on that belief. We have the very best evi- dence—none could be stronger to put us on our guard In reference to the observance of treaties— in regard to the manner In which the United States will uLtemnt to gain an advantage over Canada, whenever she can possibly do It. I think I shall be able to show you, Mr. Speaker, that she began some months nRo, in regard to this very Pacific Coast, to tie up by the hands and the heels, so far as she could, and to give advantages to her own citizens over the citizens of Can- ada in the competition for the trade of the Yukon. A man would be blind, If he could not see the purpose ; and, admitting that that i)urpose exlsta, 1 will show, without being disloyal to Canada's Interests, and I without making any admission, so far as I I am in a position to make any, against our i rights, that she never had a better oppor- I tunity than she has to-day to embarrass, harass and annoy us, just as she has dono , to a large extent and for years to gain her I ol)Jeot— not by overriding treaties, but by I violating the clearest principles of law over I written or enunciated, and without rhyme or reason doing millions of dollars damage to I Canadian citizens and British subjects— daua- I ages which have not bdl?n paid. With these I facts before us, it is, in my opinltm, the I height of madness to arrange for the ex- penditure of a large amount of Cana- dian money which, peradventure, 5y the temporary action, If you like, the caprice of the moment, or the feel- ing in the United States, may be rendered entirely useless or inoperative. I say that It becomes us now more than ever to ar- range all our great national schemes of de- velopment on such a basis that the United Statesman In no way, directly or Indirectly, interfere to hamper or embarrass us except by war ; and I am s^anguine, Mr. Speaker, that tlint is the feeling that pervades the breasts, not merely of the mnjortty of Can- adians outside of this House, but, If men would speak It, of those on both sides of this Chamber. We have endeavoured to be friendly in every way with the United States for many and many a year. Both parties in this House professed, o.t any rate, that It was their desire to extend ^\ie most friendly relations to tlie United States ; and it would be Improper for us now to add to tlie danger or the excitement of the moment that would keep them further apart. But surely self-respect and our rights as British subjects demand that we who speak on this subject, shall on all occasions, and never more than now, proclaim our entire inde- pendence of the United States, their threats or their actions. It seems to me Idle, In connection with what Is going on, unfortun- ate as these actions are, that we should be deliberating for a moment about a plan in regard to which the United States have it In their power to hinder us or l>other us in the slightest degree. The hon. gentleman also referred to the contract ; and that, which Is the very sub- ject uHvler consideration, received, after all, scant treatment at his hands. There may be. for instance, a re.TSon why the experts in the Geological Survey were not referred to, why we have not their reports before us to guide us ; because the hon. gentleman does not himself think very much of Mr. Ogllvie. This land, which our Government has adver- tised to the world as one of the greatest gold-fields ever known. Is described by the Solicitor General as a region of perpetual frost, and really an unknown region ; and In that region of perpetual frost, which Is unknown, we havt> granted 3,750,000 iicrcB of laud to two poor indlTlduals, Mackenzie & Maun, who take all the risk. TIumi. the hon. geutleman referred to the cases of pub- He works which were let without tender. He waH oudeavourluf? to make a case fur the Minister of the Interior or the Minister of Railways, whoever Is responsible for this contract— an. 1 which la It V They are l)oth hero. I do not think the Minister of Hall- y.t • would like to assume the resixjuslblllty for chjH contract ; but the Solicitor (icuernl was ready to make him res])onslble ; and what do yoTi suppose was his arjrumeiit to Justify him In passlnR over this technical ne- cessity of advertlahiR for tenders, or even shutting the door In the face of Mr. Unmllton Smith, one of the wealthiest men whose i names 'lave been mentioned In Parliament ? He says, the Minister of Public Works may do It In some cases ; and, I suppose, there Is something In that arRument. If It Is safe *to allow the Minister of Puldle Works to make secret bargains and to pass over these public advei-tlsemonta, the Minister of Hall- ways would be even a different man from | what we 8npi>0Re him to be. If It were not i Just as safe to trust him with that power, j The hon. gentleman travelled v(>ry far when ' he resorted to this argument to defend the policy of the Government In Ignoring the Tieoi sslty of calling for tenders. He referred to section 13 of the Public Works Act. which allows the Minister of Public Works—not the Minister of the Interior or the Minister of l!allways— to dispense with tenders In certain cases. That section provides : The Minister shall Invite tenders by public ad- vcrtlseraent for the execution of all work, ex- cept In cases of pressing emergency In which delay would be Injurious to the public Interest. ' But section 10 provides : | ' Nothing In this Act shall authorize a Minister ' to cause expenditure, unless previously sanc- tlond by Parliament, except for sucn repairs and j alterations as the necessities of the public ser- \ vice demand. j The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND I CANALS (Mr. Blair). There is the same provision in the Railway Act. I Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. But ! I am dealing with the Solicitor-General— j one at a time. I say that the Solicitor- ' General had so little infornmtlon on the subject, I say that the Department of Jus- tice had been overlooked by the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Slfton) to such an extent, j that when the Solicitor-General was drag- ! ged into this debate and told to defend the ; contract and do the very best he could, he : was not instructed on all the laws in force, ! for the Minister of Railways was ready to instruct him that there was another law on I the statutes besides the one he quoted, but \ was told to quote an Act which, properly considered, Is absolutely against this ae sumption of atithority by the Minister of Railways or the Interior. Mr. Hamilton Smith is not a persona grata with the hon. gentlemen opposite bccauHo he— poor or rich man, whatever ho may be— was wil- ling to do this work for less than Mann Sc Mackenzie's offer. That Is the only offence he committed. He has been slugged in tho most violent manner simply lM'cau:«< he Is prejmred to do the work on much more favourable terms. How nnich was ho wil- ling to put In of his own money V asks tho Solicitor-General. How much have Mao- kenzlo & Mann put in V My hon. friend the Solicltor-tJeneral knows as well as I do th.'it no matter what may hnpiien, no mat- ter whether this contract be rntltled or not, Mackenzie & Mann will never risk a slx- |)ence of their money. The risk. If risk there be, will be the enormous money which, under the powers of this Bill, they may borrow : and the gamble and the risk, in- stead of being Mackenzie & Mann's, will be the widows and the orphans who Invest their money In this scheme, whether In England or elsewhere. Then the hon. gen- tleman, by way of harking back, blamed the Conservative party for having done nothing since 1887 to develop the country. He said we ought to be glad now to have a Government which, instead of merely sending men up to report. Is ready to act. Tho hon. gentleman ngair was not suffl- ciently instructed or he would not have made such an extraordinary argument In this House. The real work, the work which those who have gone into that country, have taken the benefit of, was done long ago. It was done under the ausi>ices of the Liberal-Conservative Government. Mr. Ogllvie himself was sent up to that coun- try, under the instructions of tlie Liberal- Conservative Government, and a greater than Mr. Ogllvie, Dr. Dawson, under a Liberal-Conservative Government, has, in my opinion, the greatest claim on our ad- miration and gratitude for the very valuable work he has done, not only in the Ytikon and British Columbia, but in the Atlantic provinces, and in fact the whole of Canada. It is only because these hon. gentlemen had in their hands early in 1897, if not in the latter part of 1890, information tliat should have led to earlier action, that the question has come up as to whether they acted promptly or not. I think it has been sulii- ciently shown that instead of attending to the Interests of tho country, Instead of taking advantage of the information which these reports of the officers sent out by the predecessors of this Government had put them in possession of, they went to England and all parts of the world, and th\i hon. Minister of the Interior— eome til Ink wisely but I do not— got out of the way among these passes, in a direction where he does not propose to build or does not approve of. In fact, we had no Qov- frnm^nt here for months. The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COM- MERCE (Sir Richard Cartwrlght). I sup- poHo you meaii betwoon the iHt of Junuary and the 20th of January, 1800. B)r fJHAllLBS IIIBKRIIT TUPPER. The bon. uuiitlfMiinu likes to go back to the oltlpr (lays when he waH maile a great deal more of than now. If he had the power In his [larty ro-day that he had In that period to which he refers, I verilt^ believe, to do him Justiee, that he would have been stroni; enouKli to prevent such a scheme as this ever conilnK before Parliament. The hon. gentleman Is in a pitiable position. He must feel that he Is. He has been Ignored In everythinff. lie cannot advise his col- leagues much le9.s lead them, and he Is compelled at this time of life— aud I regret It— to follow thoni in this matter much against hiH will, wholly ngainst his better judgment. If we nre to believe blm to have been sincere in the prlncip'.es he advocated hi the pnat. I propose to begin some observations that It win take me some time to get through. If hon. gentlemen will tolera1:e me, I shall do what I can to flnlsh, but It would be a favour to them and certainly It would to me If I would be allowed to divide my ob- servations by moving the adjournment of the debate. Tuesday, 8tl» March, 1898. Sir CHAKLES HIBBERT TUPPER. Be- fore leaving the consideratlou of the speech delivered by the Solicitor General (Mr. Fltz- patrick) last evening, I desire to show Ihe gravity of an observation made by that lion, geutlemnn respecting the Intention of the fi-overnmeut to urge upon the House the further consideration of this Bill. Those who had charge of the Bill, it will be recol- lected, called our attention to the peculiari- ties of this contract, that it differed from other contracts in that It contained coven- ants on the part of the contractors. I would draw the attention of the House again, not only to the title of the Bill, which Is " An Act to confirm an agreement betweon Her Majesty and William Mackenzie and Donald D. Mann, aud to Incorporate the Canadian Yukon Railway Company," but to certain of Its clauses. Clause 1 of the Bill says : 1. The contract, a copy of which 1h set out in the schedule to this Act, Is hereby approved anc" conflrraed and declared to be binding upon the parties thereto, aud Her Majesty and the contractors therein named are hereby respec- tively aiithorized and empowered to perform and carry it out according to the true intent and raeaning thereof. The usual and ordlnai-y clause to make effective and binding this contract between the Government and these contractors. In addition to that, clause 2 of the contract which we are asked to approve and confirm by the second reading of this Bill, provides : i The Ooveriiriiont shall submit to ParllameBit at i Its next ensuing session a measure for the neces- I tary Act contlrining this agreement. ' And HO on. Cl.iuse 11 of this agreeiiuuit I makes it obligatory upon the coniractors, In I order to earn their reward, only to con- struct a railway, but not to operate It. The J last part of this clause 11 reads : j Uiich land to be and become vested In the con- tractors upon the said railway being completed Slid accepted us complete by the UoveruniQnt ! nnd upon tht.> xiild laud being solocted as^enjla- after sot forth. I Clause 12 of the contract which we are ask- I ed to make blnllng u[)on the parties, pro- i vldes. In its last paragrapii, as f.illows :— i The contractors may alto at their option Eelect ; addlMonal bloi^ks lying on nlther end of any odd- nunilK>re i (ach oml of each such odd-uumbered block. i Clause ,T provides that, by the 8tli of this month, that Is by to-day, there shall be con- structed a certain slelgli road, which Is de- scribed In that clause. It Is particularly agreed that, In any event, this nuid shall be constructed not later than six weeks from " the execution (if this agreement, that 1«, to- day. Now, we were told that this contract which we ai'o asked to approv(>, and which Is appended to the Bill, is ntrt to be approv- ed In the form In which we have It, but that already It has been changed In nuirktHl par- tlcular.a, and that It Is not proposed by the Government, outside of the very letter of this Bill, to ask this House to ratify and con- firm any such document as is appended to the Bill. We w^ero told that there would be alterations made, not only in the Bill, but in the contract as well. Thes*' alterations were serious and Important, even those we had heard of up to last night, but one of the most Importaut alterations In that agreement Is that proposed by the Solicitor General and promised on behalf of the Government, when he told us that as soon as wo reach the com- mittee stage, there will be put upon the con- tractors an additional and very serious ob- ligation, an amendment whereby the con- tractors will eovenait and agree to operate the road which, according to this agreement, they were only to build. Now, It might be said : But wf will produce In committee a supplementary agreement ; we will show that the contractors have agreed to these grave alterations, and therefore there is no necessity for any delay. But, w- ' <-r this procedure would be, under the iistan- ces, In accordance with the pf» v "p of the rules of this House, we ar» far , face with the fact that, after th»i c-rlUf' in that has been offered, the GoverMi'pit 'live re- ceded from the proposition whr i t'lv y made to the House on Introdi^clng xl j ISIU, and do not Intend to ask that the House shall approve of the terms of the agreement t)' ge| nc whioh they pnt*»rp(l Into with MoHHrn. Mfu?- kenrlo &. Miimi on tho '2Mh of .Tnnuary, ISJIM; but tilt y Intend to pro(luci> i. oontract HlKnod and nKi''""l ''> on sonio otluT day. How rl(ll(iilt)\iH Ih the ixwltlon which ttome hnvii taken In this IIokhc that tho Oppo- Hltlnn, by (JIhcuhsIoi., by criticism nml by tho conKhU'rntlon liey have jjlvon to the contract an It wan orlRlnnlly proposed, havo rtchiycd or taken up iimiccfSMarlly the time of tlie House, when the result of that con- sideration and delay has been to obtain nil these radlenl and Important chaiiKes. Even last niKht, the niKht before otie of the nnder- takln^s was to be completed, the Solicitor General announces a further and not tho least Important chnnRc which It Is proposed to .make. I do not believe that It Is lu &rrHi^{, nco either wllh precedents or In ao- coK.ui.ce with common sensi' for tln^ dov- ernment to presume so far iimui their sup- porters In this House as to ask them t ) vote for a contract which they themselves con- demn In all these Important particulars, and which In no event, whether wt? agree to couHrin that contract or not, will ever be the ooutrnct between the Government and Messrs. Mackenzie & Mann. Then. If I (nuRht arli^ht an observation made by the Solicitor (Seneral. he referred to a Mr. Christie as having said something not alto- gether favourable to this territory w^hlch Is to be handed over, under the proposal before us, to Messrs. Mackenzie & Mann. An hon. friend has put into my hands an edition of the New York " World " containing a con- tribution from. I believe, the same gentle- man. Mr. .Tas. Christie, In which he says : I flo not wish to convey tho idea that the country is not rich ; It Is so rich. In fact, that It It is not necessary to lie about It. I find In the same edition of the " Worhl " iY s contribution from Director Wnlcott, ji the United States Geological Survey : Tho gold resources of Alaska appear to be practically Inexhaustible. The miners who are attacking the placers in the Yukon Valley are gathering the gold sorted out ot the debris washing down from tho mountains during raauy centuries. In that region there is a belt of rich gold-bearing rooks r>00 miles long, not touched as yet by pick or blast. Geologists who have examined the deposits are of the opinion that they may surpass the wonderful goldi mines of South Africa in productiveness. Again, referring to the extraordinary im- patience of the Government, all the more extraordinary for the observation of the Solicitor General la announcing at this lute date a further change, one cannot help re- curring to a humorous illustration put by my hon. friend from one of the co\intles in Queb(H'. tho other evening. In regard to this formal consultation on the part of the Treasury benches of the Parliament of Can- ada, concerning the contract which they have entered into, I would remind hon. gentlemen of en Illustration which became noticeable during revolutionary times in Prance, wh«n parliamentary government \\a» threatened, and when Parliament was i-egarled merely as a body for the rcglslrn- tlon of the decrees of u ccrliiln collection of men. A rustic had called all the lowls of the barnyard to,xetIu'r, and having con- vened thetn, aHked : Voii wander from tho I point. Here the Treasury benches Uring ' do Mils contract which they lliemselvea j are m half ashan;ed of. and accuse mem- bei'S (•.' .lis House, and of the Opposition, of w'li lering contlinwtll.v from Uw point, beenii.se they give ample and stilllclent rea- •t s to "tow thai no siich contiMct ought i". er to be entered Into. When a proposition Is made to create the greatest ndning mo- nopoly in the face of llie earth, I think It Is -ell. even If it were not for the reasons \lth which we have Justllle found them willing to negotiate on a reasonable basis. Will the Government, that has given us so little information In respect to this con- tract, tell the House who drew the contract, as a matter of fact ; who drew the contract that is to be amended ; who drew the con- tract of which hon. gentlemen opposite are already ashamed ? Who drew this con- tract that Is so incomplete that these Im- portant amendments are to be made ? Did the solicitor of Messrs. Mackenzie & Mann draw tue contract after those gentlemen had dictated to the Government what the Gov- ernment were to give ? What officer of the Government drew the contract, and who gave the instructions to the ofiicer of the Government ? I think we should have that information before we pass the second read- ing of the Bill, and that this question is a pertinent one. You, Mr. Speaker, cannot have forgotten that when there was a Pi'ime Minister of a Liberal Administration charged with the management of a large ralhvay scheme, knowing as well as he did that in a position of that kind with such a large trust to ex- ecute it was necessary at all times that the Government, if possible, in dealing with that transaction should be above suspicion— what was the defence of the late Mr. Mac- kenzie when serious things were brought up in connection with the handling of the Canadian Pacific Railway contract in those days ? Mr. Mackenzie on two occasions— on a great many moro, but on two occasions which I have a note of— used this defence. On the first occasion, at Unlonville. he said : " We acted on the advice of the chief engi- neer." Again, at Fergus, he said ; " I have invariably in all matters requiring a scientific or a professional knowledge acted upon the opinion of my chief engineer of the department." We have a chief engineer to-day, as I have already reminded the House, who Is paid as an expert oQlcer ; and yet asking the Government as I did last night whether that officer had ever made a report, my question was received in such a manner that I have no doubt that he knew nothing whatever of this matter until it was " im fait accompli." Why should there be, as I believe there is, a feeling of alarm, not to mention Interest, widespread in the coun- try in respect to this proposition ? It is not merely a proposition that involves a huge mining monopoly, but It is a proposi- tion having to do with our mineral re- souices, so reckless In its terms that there is not a case in the world's history like It, unless you go back to the old days of Spain, when huge grants in the gold regions that Spain had discovered and appropriated, were made, and it was found that these grants which had been made, without cou- oitions as to worlcing, to favourites, re- tarded the development of those gold re- gions. Away back in the sixteenth century Spain thought better of pursuing such a course and policy, and from that day down to this I challenge hon. gentlemen opposite to show that any civilized country has adopted such a policy as is embodied in this Bill. The Government have ignored, for Instance, what the mining laws of the Uni- ted States, what the mining laws of Spain and of the different colonies have all re- garded as important. They have ignored the discoverer's right, they have ignor- ed the condition of working in order to ex I bpl Vif th{ Po| la! 11 Mann ion had le Gov- of the id who of the ive that id read- ion is a orgotten later of vlth the scheme, position it to ex- that the ng with splcldn— ilr. Mac- brought g of the in those sions— on occasions defence, he said : liief engi- said: "I [julrlng a dge acted ser of the engineer ' nded the Hcer ; and : did last ;r made a In such a t he knew I til it was lere be, as ilarm, not the coun- II ? It is iuvolves a a proPosi- ilneral re- that there 3ry nice it, s of Spain, >gions that propriated, that these ithout cou- jurites. re- le gold re- ith century ng such a L day down en opposite junti-y has died In this gnored. for of the TJnl- vs of Spain lave all re- ave Ignored lave ignor- t lu order to hold title ; they have discriminated against the free miner In favour of mo- nopoly, and they have, in my opinion, not only sown the seeds of rebellion amongst that hardy and strong population which will be attracted by lust of gold to those fields, but they have laid a huge financial responsibility on this country, the like of ■which it is hard indeed to imagine, limit or describe. They have Ignored, as I have said, the very important policy of preserv- ing the mineral resources free for explora- tion, free for discovery, and those features, if hon, miMubors will look into the laws of the United States and into the experience of mining countries, they will find have been considered essential for the full and successful development of such re- sources. Take the legislation of the United States, and their experience has been great and their experience has been wonderful. In the old times what did Congress do ? Con- gress from the first until to-day has recog- nized these principles that commend them- selves, not to mining corporations, not to huge collections of wealthy men, but which recommend themselves from the experience and fair-play involved in them to tlte actual miners on the ground. Hon. members will find this principle embodied in different sections of several statutes of the United States. It will be found In section 2319. and it has been continued from 18(i(l when the United States Congress began to organ- ize a system for the development of their mineral resources. The section to which I refer, reads as follows :— All available mineral deposits in lands belong- ing to tlie United States, both surveyed and un- surveyed, are hereby declared free and open to the exploration and purchase by citizens of the United States and those who have declared their Intention to become such, under regulations pre- scribed hv law and according lo the local cus- toms or rules of mining districts, so far as the same are applicable and not Inconsistent with the laws of the United States. It will be found even in recent cases in the Su'uvme Court of the United States that the judges refer to this policy of cheir country in dealing with rich corporations and monopolies, and point out that Con- gress has adhered to the policy which pre- vents railways obtaining, in aid of con- struction or otherwise, mineral lands, which were reserved for the people ; and Mr. .Justice Miller, in a vei-y interesting cose decided recently, traced the history of that legish^tlon and pointed out how nect's- sary it was to distinguish between ordinai-y public lands and mineral lands. But we have some other very serious cases to guide us in these matters. We have the experien.'e of Australia. Many hon. mem- bers may remember the Ballar,Tt riots in Victoria, and they may know wliat led to those riots among the miners ; and I pro- pose to make a passing reference to thio.se landniarks in the history of mining coun- tries, as well as the genera! course pursued by the British Government when the great excitement broke out in tlie Fraser River district in British Columbia. From what happened in these- t.ises and from the opinion of the experts v»no looked into the matter, we can well take warning on the present occasion. In the case of the Ballarat riots, the commissioners who were aiipoiuted to consider the grievances of the miners which gave rise to these riots, i-eported against giving absolute grants of mineral lauds to any one, and they said : The new auriferou.s land prospected by tho applicants should be liberally dealt out, but tho leases, in no event should exceed 80 acres. The commissioners argued, that lengthened terms were detrimental to the public inter- est, and that no lease should be given for a term longer than fifteen years, and at no rent under £5 a acre. They suggested, as I have said, that 80 acres was a largo grunt for auriferous land, and then they have this sentence in this report to which I wisli to call particular attention : Countless treasures may possibly be passed from the public possession within ciuch an area. And remember, Mr. Speaker, that they are speaking of the comparatively trifling area of 80 acres. Again, the commissioners re- fer to the hostile feeling on the part of the miners being due to the natural fear that the weal.h and influence of co-partners would gradually lead to the monopoly of auriferous land, and would be very unfair to the fcidividual miner as well as detrimen- tal to his Interest, The commissioners argue that every care should be taken to guard against this. in connection with the Fraser River ex- citement of 1858 there were some most care- fully considered despatches of the late Bul- wer Lytton, who was Colonial Secretary, and they form most interesting reading and contain valuable Instruction. Douglas was then Governor of British Columbia, and peo- ple were pouring into the Fraser River dis- trict attracted by the great finds of gold. Every despatch of his shows, that notwith- standing that the responsible power lay with the English authorities, the Colonial Secretary tooi>' care to impress upon the Governor of British Columbia, that all tho regulations should be such as would rally to their supprirt every individual miner and make him believe that lu supporting those regulations he Avas supporting his own title and his own property. Lord Bulwer jijytton sets out, that the greatest pains sliould be taken not to allow it to be supposed for a moment, that the Hudson Bay Company, a gigantic corporation in that province, could obtain a solitary favour at the expense of the miners from the Governor or from those administering the Government of that pro- vince. Governor Douglas wrote to Lord Stanley in 1858, referring to the Importance 12 of avoiding a cause for grievance, and tot providing that there be no generally felt grievance to unite the miners in one com- mon cause. Lord Lytton writing to Gover- nor Douglas upon the question of the sus- picion of favouritism to the Hudson Bay Company, adds : This suspicion would be eminently prejudicial to the establishment of a civil government in the ccuntry lying near the Fraser River, and would multiply existing difltculties and dangers. Again, Lord Lytton says : I approve of you continuing to levy license fees for mining purposes, requestinfr you to adapt the scale of those fees to the general acquiescence of U.0 -enturers, And, Sir, In the case we are now consider- ing, it is extraordinary that this Govern- ment, going against such examples, and going against such wholesome doctrine, pro- pose that they should attemijt to collect ten per cent on the operations of the individual free miners, while the charge is only to be one per cent to these favoured monopolists. Again, Lord Lytton writing to the Gover- nor of British Columbia points out: In a colony Illce British Columbia, in which it is reasonable to asuame that the first immi- grants would be men accustomed to danger, not to be daunted by the means of force, but too eager for gold not to respect the means by which gold when obtained is secure to its owners, sol- diers will be popular in proportion as the strength which they afford to law is tacitly felt rather than obtrusively paraded, What, Sir. will be the t 'ell-f ounde(f griev- ances In these Yulion goid fields, should the proposition now before the House become law ? Let us remember that we are dealing in relation to the free miner, with placer mines only. So far as It is proposed to deal with thif monopoly, we are handing tnem over the placer rights, and we are handing them over the quartz jnining in that abso- lute grant of that huge part of the country. The Government have only had time, so far as the individual m'aer is concerned, to deal with these placer vights ; and before I point out the discrimlL"tion made between the free miners and this monopoly I would ask the Minister of Marine (Sir Louis Davies) if he was serious, when I understood him on a recent occasion, to qut^stion the criticism made from this side of the House, that these regulations for the free miner, adopted about two days before the contract was signed, did not apply in any shape or form to these c "iiitractors when they obtain that ab- solute grant. I say without any doubt wnat- ever that these regulations which apply to the free miner are in no sense applicable in terms or by the separate regulations to these contractors, Maclvenzle & Mann, or to their assignees or to the people who obtain Ic future title from them. The subject has been partially dealt with, but let us consider again the respective positions of the fiee miner In that country, and the favoured monopoly. In the first place the free miner can only get a grant for a year, and by working and paying and continuing to work and pay he may go on from year to year ; while in the case of the favoured monopoly he ob- tains his grant for ever. In the case of the free miner, there is a certificate to be paid for at the rate of $10 a year, and In the case of a company— not this favoured mono- poly- -SIIOO a year, if it has a capital of $100,- 000 or over. There is no such provision in the case of these contractors who can place their employees all over the land, and yet there is a regulation which makes it neces- sary for any other company, or any other free miner, net merely to pay for his own free miner's certificate, but to see at the peril of his property and the risk of his all, that every person In the company's employ shall hold an existing free miner's certifi- cate payable for at the rate of $10 a year. Otherwise there is forfeiture for the other company or ind'vidual, while there is no forfeiture, no risi:, and no trouble of any kind on the part of the favoured monopoly. It costs a free miner $15 to enter a mineral claim, but there is no fee whatever charged for this huge gift to this monopoly when they earn from time to time the different portions of their 3,750,000 acres. There is a registry fee to be paid by the free miner every time a transfer occurs of his mineral claim, but there is no fee whatever charged for this favoured monopoly. When the entry fee of $15 has been paid by the free miner, there is a further fee of $15 a year payable by him, but there is no trou- ble or bother whatever on that score so far as this favoured monopoly is concerned. A royalty of 10 per cent payable by the free miner, or forfeiture of the title abso- lutely and at once, the very default creat- ing the forfeiture— no trouble on the part of the Government. But in the case of these favounnl contractors, forsooth, not only do we propose to let them off at 1 per cent, but should ithey be in default for one year or ten years or twenty years, there is no questio.n of forfeiture ; the land is theirs, the title remains theirs, and no action of the Government can take it from them for any default on their part. In the case of the free miner, let us see how careful the Government has been that no individual Canadian and no company of Canadians may do anything which would lock up several acres of these placer grounds. In the case of creek, gulch, river and hill claims. It is laid down, following good and wholesome practices in other countries, that they cannot exceed 250 feet in length and l.OfK) feet in width in the case of creek or gulch claims, on each elde of the centre of the creek or gulch, or 1,000 feet in width in the case of the river or hid claims. In in' the case of the indivldtial, see how neces- sary it has been considered that everything m 13 he owns shall be held not only subject to tribute at the risk of forfeiture, but that as between free miner and free miner tL'^rc shall be as little confusion as possible ; ro that he who runs may read, as far as the free miners' property and actions are concerned. There shall be flrsit a well- located claim, and then a properly marked claim, so that it shall be easily identified. All this is for the purpose of order, to avoid confusion, for the development of the coun- try, and based upon the experience of all countries that have been fortunate enough to own gold fields of this character. Now, turning to clauses 15 and 27 of the regula- tions, I find thait clause 15 provides : Every placer claim shall be as' nearly as pos- sible rectangular In form, and marked by two legal posts tirmly fixed In the ground, in the manner shown In diagram No. i. The line be- tween the two posts shall be well cut out so that one post may, if the nature of the surface w'll permit, be seen from the other. The flatted side of each post shall face Vie claim, and on each post shall be written on the side facing the claim a legible notice stating the name or num- ber of the claim, or both if possible, its length in feet, the date when staked, and the full Chris- tian and surname of the locator. The 27th regulation says : Entry shall not be granted for a claim which has not been staked by tlie applicant in person In the manner specified in these regulations. An affidavit that the claim w£us staked out by the applicant shall be embodied in form " H " in the schedule hereto. > If these are reasonable regulations, and I believe they are, why In the name of com- mon sense or fair-play, should you allow what would otherwise be orderly and regu- lar to be plunged into indescribable confu- sion, by these mineral land-grabbers being allowed to claim by the mere fact ol hav- ing run thefr base line in a cei-tain direc- tion, and then to run off, as the clause to which I shall refer shows, without mark- ing, without staking, without notifying any- one in that -whole field of what they have done ? What would otherwise be order and regularity, becomes, by the interposition of This monopoly, without tliese checks and regulations being made applicable to them, endless confusion and a source of endless trouble and disaster to the free miners ; and tho man is, in my opinibn, absurd who will say that any body of free miners in the Yukon or in any other part of the globe, would stand such a discrimination as that for a moment, or remain a law-abid- ing people. There are no (clauses in the contract to compare with the regulations I have )""entioned, because they are not .ap- pllcabl but clauses 11 and 12 enable these parties to take up that huge amount of lOiUd, and yon may read the contract from beginning to end, and you will see that they are required neither to pay a ftse in the way of entry, nor to put up posts or notices in any shape or form. A reference to I Mr. Jennings's report will show that tjiere ! is a possibility of t^his mineral land coming I to (5,25(),0(tO acres Instead of the 4,000,000 j acres spoken of in the House, by the ; adoption of line 2, the length of which is 250 miles. Section 18 of the contract, at any rate, permits these monopolists to take 1 92,100 acres, or to have this quantity of I land reserved to them, on tlie completion I of each ten miles of their road ; and they I are permitted to make their selection at I leisure. They may ma^je their selection of j the lands, one-half in three years and one- ' half in six years. Now, peraiit me to I draw attention to some of the reasons for ] some of the regulations fix>m which these Iconti etors have been exempted, and the i wisdom that has made them applicable else- i where to miners and mining companies. I For instance, Barringer and Adams, dis- [ cussing similar regulations to those applying I to the free miner here, say : I The location must be distinci,!:' marked on the ground, so that its boundaries cf.n be readily traced. The test is that any one visiting the ground may be able to trace and identify the loca- tion. Again, these writers say : The failure, however to mark the location as ; required is absolutely fatal to its validity. I Speaking again of the validity of the loca- ; tion, they say ; This process seems to be the usual mode recog- I uized among miners, to indicate the taking up of i a claim of this sort, as in fact an appropriation I or proof of appropriation of the claim. ; And, as answering the question as to why these claims should be limited in extent, these authors say : The claim, unless the regulations otherwise provide, is invalid if unreasonable in extent, as creating a monopoly. To refer again to the limited extent in locating a placer, they refer to the fact that : The 'regulations limit the extent of a placer location to tweuty acres, a lode claim to 1,50D feet in the direction of the lode or vein, and 300 feet wld6. Then, on the question of limited claims, and the reason for them, they say : It is a recognition of such local district regu- lations, and is admirably adapted to promote the development of our mineral resrnrces, as well as to prevent any monopoly o. mining ground, the requirement serving to prevent the location of land as raining claims, unless the locator has sufilcient faith in the character there- of to justify expenditure in its location. Touching the condition of working, tliey say : These mineral lands being thus open to the occupation of all discoverers, one of the first necessities of a mining neighbourhood was to make rules by which this right of occupation should be governed as among themselves, and It u 11. ■was soon dlsaovared that the same person cou'd mark out many claims of discovery and then leave them for an Indefinite length of time with- out further development, and without actual possession, and seek in this manner to exclude others from availing themselves of the aban- doned mine. To remedy this evil a mining regulation was adopted that some work should be done on each claim in every year, or It would be treated as abandoned. That gives one an Idea of the radical dis- crimination which has been made between the free miner and this company, and for tha-t discrimination there Is no precedent— none hii.-s been given to this House, and I know of none— to be found in tlie world's history of the successful administration of any gold fields. Thn right hon. leader of the Government told us, that he desires to have the road in operation by the first of September, and we are promised some amendment in committee bv which tlie contract will be made * > have tiiat effect, but It is significant of th hasty and crude preparation of this contract that the ngi-eement which the right hon. First Minister desired Is not the one which Is be- fore the House. As regards the clause touching the for- feiture of the deposit, I would lilje to call attention to the statement of the Minister of the Interior, as a saaple of the confusion which prevails in the n Inds of the hon. gen- tlemen who have charge of this Bill. In his speech, the hon. Minister of the Interior told us, that the $250,000 deposit had reference only to the construction of the railway, and did not apply to the construction of the sleigh road. That is fortunate for Macken- zie & Mann, who are apparently defaulters In this respect. But he added : " We have the covenant with the contractors, which is just as good as a deposit." Would the hon. gentleman tell me whether, default having been made, he proposes to take any action against Mackenzie & Mann upon their cov- enant, which, he says, is just as good as the $250,000 deposit ? The MINISTER OF TF iS INT^iBIOR (Mr. Slfton). When default is made, the ; Government will consider very oArefully i what they will do. But the hon. irentleraan is making an entirely gratuitous statement i when he says that default is n\ade. j Sit CHARLES HIBBERT 1 UPPER. I I accept the statement of the Min'ster of the | Crown, but am entitled to ask the question: j Has the sleigh road been built ? j The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. | The hon. gentleman is aware that therp is ' no telegraph line between that point and j this. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. And I the hon. gentleman is aware that Mr. Mann i Is In Ottawa. I have no doubt thnt the hon. gentleman saw Mr Mann. It is only reason- i able that he should see him, If he takes any i i interest In the expediting of this work. Ha^ the hon. gentleman the slightest supposition, from his conversation with any of these con- tractors, that one single mile of that road has been built ? The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I can say, in reply to the hon. gentleman, that at the Rldeau Club, this afternoon, I casu- ally met Mr. Mann, and asked him If the sleigh road was completed, and he assured me that it was. Sir CrIARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. The hon. gentleman was not as frank with me as T +hought he Avould be, when this con- versation began. The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I told the hon. gentleman, that he made a statement he had no foundation for making, and that should have satisfied him. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. I was asking a question, and would now, with the hon. gentleman's pei'mlsslon, ask him another. If Mr. Mann's statement be not correct, will the Government take action on the covenant ? The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. I think the hon. gentleman had better pro- ceed with his speech. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. No doubt, the hon. Minister would prefer that I should take that course. He referred, how- ever, in his speeeb, to this forfeiture again. He said : There Is a forfeiture of $250,000 now in the hands of the First Minister, and there Is the personal responsibility of Mackenzie & Mann, under a signed contract which renders them liable to the full extent of their means, what- ever these may be. Would the hon. gentleman tell me who draft- ed that security clause V I do not suppose he will, but I desire to show him the differ- ence between it and the security clause in tlie Canadian Pacific Railway charter. I feel very positive that tlie clause In this con- tract was ot drawn by any law adviser of the Government. Take the clause in the Canadian Pacific Railway charter, chapter 1 of the Statutes of 1881, paragraph 2, and compare it with this boasted security clause in this contract. The clause in this con- tract, which is clause 10, readp as follows:— The contractors shall v/lthln ten days after the execution hereof deposit with the Govern- ment in cash or approved cash security, the sum of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars as security that the railway from Stlklne to Teslln Lake hereby contracted for will be completed and equipped in accordance with the terms hereof, and on such railway being completed and equipped and accepted as hereinbefore specified tl'e said sum or security shall be returned to the contractors or to wnom they may appoint, and If the same bo deposited In cash, Interest at the rate of three per cent per annum thereon shall be paid for the time such cash has been de- posited. Fi 10 Compare that with the clause in the Cana- dian Pacific Railway charter, section 2 of chapter 1 of the Statutes of 1881 : The contractors, immediately after the organ- ization of the Bald company, shall deposit with the Governmont $1,000,000 in cash or approved securities, as security for the construction of the railway hereby contracted for. The Government shall pay the company interest on the cash, de- . posited at the rate of four per cent per annum, half yearly, and shall pay over to the company the Interest received upon securities deposited— the whole until default in the performance of the conditions thereof or until the repayment of the deposit, and shall return the deposit to tho company on the completion of the railway ac- cording to the terms hereof, with any Interest accrued thereon. In the one case the interest stops on default, but in the other it does not. 1 submit this to the consideration of the Govei'ament, that when they reach— if they ever do— the com- mittee stage on this Bill, they should take some pains to redraft that clause, so as to provide that, in case of default, the Gov- ernment may lay their hands upon evpiy dollar of the deposit. At present, the only risk which Mackenzie & Maun seem to run is this, that if they make default, instead of tlieir fretting their money back, it shall be held in the safe-keeping of the Government, for ever, if they like, and the company will draw the Interest at 3 per cent per .nnnum— not a very bad arrangement for Mackenzie & Mann. As to the risk, let us consider that care- fully in tJie light of some pretty good ad- vice. Macitenzle & Mann, according to the Government, run the risk of losing $250,000 and of being m.ade liable for damages, ac- cording to what rule, the Minister of the Interior did not know, and the Solicitor Gen- eral (Mr. Fitzpatrii-K) took very good care not to enter Into that very abstruse and dif- ficult question. I should like indeed to be informed by some of the legal luminaries on tkj Treasury benches what the nature of the claim for damages would be, on default, outside of this penalty or liquidated damage —whichever it may be— embraced in that clause. But, leaving these technical questions, let us come down to something which every one can understand. Tlie MINISTER OP MARINE AND FISHERIES (Sir Louis Davies). Hear, hear. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPI'ER. Let us come down, for instance, to the under- standing of my hon. friend the Minister of Marine and Fisheries. I ask him what is the risk which Mackenzie & Mann run with regard to this deposit. I am going to submit a brief quotation, for it is a shorter way than to give them the history of these different contracts, for the building of rail- ways witiiin a cei'tain time. This is not the first we have had ; we have had them by tlie score, even cases in which the con- tract said— as this contract does not say- that time was to be the very essence of the bargain, that the contractor.^ should not be entitled to a single farthing unless a certain thing were done by a certain day. And yet, on the failure of the contractors to carry out their agreement. Acts have been passed by this Parliament extending the time or declaring the forfeit off and liandiny bade the money. If hon. gentlemen oppo- site have forgotten the history of the indul- gence of the Parliament of Canada in con- nection with the contractors who made bona tide attempts to build a railway wi*hln a certain time and failed, I call their atten- tion to Mr. Mackenzie's utterances at King- ston in 1878 on this very subject. We have here a case exactly in poiut. Let every one understand from this just how much secu- rity we have and how much risk Messrs. Mackenzie was an the Do- jad. Par- of bulld- and cash mil been llcy V but so far as was con- ad there . guide ne- to reach der these jubmltted C to this er which with the i^s before lie of that between ore clear- e Acta of cific Rail- ' the pre- anada has ■ the con- allway by aided by laA by the bave been ilowed, but e not been rovlde for Ich would ; Minister mough to hen asked leral form copies of •iblng the ire to be ras aiding )y a land provisions they have t Instance, ises w^hich QStruetlon, that is to the clause e of ithese these con- be the efl- 33 the rail- id, and run- Vinnipeg to lake, a dls- jy the said any's claim Council re- Lcludlng the solutely null and if the Mackenzie ig, as they profess, this clause would have been found in this contract, and Its absence, I say. Is significant when we find It In similar contracts made .between the Government and other companies In times past. Some hon. gentlemen have discussed this extra- ordinary statement of the Minister of Kail- ways that this was a " gamble." There Is no doubt that the hon. gentleman ap- proached it with thai view, that the Gov- ernment had entered Into a huge gamble, and I have an excuse for the Minister of Hallways for not having resorted to any- thing like an advertisement asking for public tenders. If his statement be cor- rect that this was a gamble, and If the manner In which he put the contract be- fore the House was accurate, he would have become liable to indictment had he advertsed for any public tenders. Under the Criminal Code, paragraph 205, he would have been liable to two years' imprison- ment and a fine of |2,00() for advertising any scheme— ^this is the language of the statute : Any scheme or plan for disposing of any pro- perty by any mode ot chance whatsoever. So if the Minister of Railways knows noth- ing about railway contracts and gold fields, he does understand the provisions of the Criminal Code. Then the Minister of the Interior took a long time to explain the Ignorance of the Government in regard to the subject matter of this contract. I wish, however, to deal with the Minister of the Interior as opposed to the Minister of Railways on this subject, and then to deal with the Minister of Railways as op- posed to himself, In order to show the con- fusion with which this proposition has been covered when introduced for the considera- itlon of the House. Take, for Instance, the speech of the Minister of Railways. He told us in the first place : Hon. members of this House will recollect quite clearly that before the close of last session, evidence was pouring in upon us of thd immense discoveries of gold that were taking place In the Yukon district, and returning parties from that remote region were bringing us the most fab- ulous accounts of its mineral deposits. Then, again, he refers to the great gold discoveries coming under the consideration of the Grovernment, and adds : I* It became clear to us that we should imme- diately address our attention to dealing with th3se problems in a manner that would be most efficient. And so on. Now let us take the Minister of the Interior. In a speech that was remarkable for the strength of the asser- tions which, on examination, became ques- tionable, If TT» are to take the statements of the Minister of Rall^.vaya as accurate, the Minister of the Interior said : We all know exactly what we knew last ses- Bion about the Yukon country ; there is no dls- Sir O H T-2 pute about it. If I recollect aright, the printed report was not brought down before the House prorogued. He had the Information of Mr. Ogilvie's report, in which he said there had been some ex-traordinary rich finds of gold made. He goes on to say, however, that It was an almost unknown district, a district that had attracted no attention whatever, a dis- trict that had not attracted the attention of the late Government. Then he refers to the mining In the Stewart River, and con- tinues : But will anybody in his sane senses undertake to say that when this Parliament prorogued wo hand any information whatever which led to the supposition that tens of thousands of people were going to the Klondike district last fall and the coming year ? Why, nobody dreamed of such a thing. The iMlnlster of Railways dreamed of it. The Minister of Railways, with these re- ports coming in, not only from ofliclals, but from returning parties, telling of the vast gold discoveries, says that in his opin- ion it became the duty of the Government Immediately to consider what was to be done with this subject. I say the Minis- ter of Railways speaks in such a way as to make the statement of the Minister of the Interior all the more remarkable and astounding. Let me show the evidence the Minister of Railways had under his hands at the end of last session, when, as a mem- ber of that Government, he was in charge of the Information from 1896 down to the end of the session of 1897. Take, for in- stance, the report of Mr. Ofiilvie, Sessional Papers, volume 30, No. 13. Writing on November 6th, 1896, he speaks of rich placer miines of gold discovered on the Klondike and branches, and gives the result of work- ings. I speak subject to correction, but I think the Minister of the Interior stated that that report of Noveipber, 1896, was in possession of the Government in 1896. Mr. Ogilvle goes on to say : For the news has gone out to the coast, and an unprecedented influx is expected next spring (1897). And this is not all, for a large creek called Indian Creek joins the Yukon about mid- way between the Klondike and Stewart rivers, and ill along this creek good pay has been found. • * * Now gold has been found In several of the streams joining Pelly River, and also along the Hootalinqua. In tl e lino of these finds far- thest south are the Cassiar geld fields in British Columbia ; so the presumption is that we have in our territory along the easterly watershed of the Yukon .i gold-bearing belt of indefinite v/idth, and upwards of 300 miles long, exclusive of the British Columbia part of it. Later <>n, he says : I think this is enough to show that we may look forward with confidence to a fairly bright future for this part of "ir territory. Then, referring to Bonanza Creek, he says : From $1 to the pan of dirt up to $12 are re- ported, and no bed rock found yet. This nteana from $1,000 to $12,000 per day per man sluicing. T 18 And again : Enough prospecting haa been done to show that there are at laast fifteen miles of thla ex- traordinary richness, end the Indications are that we will have three or four times that extent, If not all equal to the above, at least very rich. In January, 1897, he reports : The reports from the Klondike region are still very encouraging. Later on : One thing is certain, we have one of '.ho richest mining areas ever found, with a fair prospect that we have not yet discovered its limits. On January 22nd, 1807, he reports : I am confident from the nature of the gold found in creeks that many more of thena, and rich too, will be found. Then, on January 23rd, 1897 : Placer prosi ts continue more and more en- couraging and extraordinary. Then, Mr. Speaker, how In 1'^" name of reason could the Minister of t±ie Interior talk In that light way In regard to what had so much impressed the iMinlSiter of Railways when he issued the pamphlet pub- lished in August. 1807, that must have been prepared a long rtme prior to that, and informed the world, informed all for whom it was Intended, that they were invited to come to our shores and to enjoy the con- ditions that obtained in Canada. He pub- lished this as early as August, 1897 : The discoveries of gold near the southern boundary of British Columbia have recently been followed by still further discoveries on the Yukon River and its tributariea in the extreme north, and at numerous points between the two gold and silver have been found in such quan- tities as to creat« the belief that throughout the several ranges of the Rooky Mountains from the 49th parallel to the Arctic OCean, additional fields for mining enterprise will annually be found for many years to come, and that as trans- port is afforded mining towns will arise from north to sbuth of British Columbia. In no part of the world can capital be more profitably employed. Then coming particularly to the Yukon, there is an article headed "The Yukon Gold Fields," which Is published by that hon. gentleman in August, 1897. It says • The greatest gold discovery of recent years has been made in the North-west Territories of Can- ada. No sooner had the great wealth of the gold and silver quartz mountains of British Columbia become known to the world than tidings were re- ceived of fabulously rich gold diggings on the Yukon and its tributary streams, particularly on the Throndulok, or as it is more generally called, the Klondike, as well as on the Bonanza, the Bl- dorado and other creeks. And later on : But of Its richness in that respect there Is no doubt, and it is impossible at present to limit the locality from which gold will be taken. Further on in the same article there Is the following :— But the enormous quantity of gold brought out by a few prospectors resulted in a rush such as has not been seen for many years, and it became necessary to provide more amply for the future. That was the statement made by the hon. Minister in August, 1897. Let us now go a step further and see what information had been obtained by our neigh- bours to the south. The Minister of the In- terior of the United States, In his annual report for the year ending June 30th, 1897, publishes some valuable Information, and the United States Government had no offi- cer more reliable or more deserving of praise than their representative in this re- gard. Speaking of Alaska, the Hon. Secre- tary of the Interior said : The population of the district, according to tho census of ISDO, was 32.052, which, has been greatly augmented since, notably so during the last two years when dlscovorlss of valuabla gold mines in Alaska, aaH particularly in the Klondike region, has caused a large influx of white people from all grades of society. In the appendix to this report the Secre- tary adds some interesting information : Near by Is the mouth of the Koyukuk River (the Klondike), a tributary to tho Yukon from tho north. This river has been ascpnded 600 miles by steamer, and ■with its various tributaries is known to ba rich in gold. Again : Whon the tid-tngs camo of the rich finds on the Klondike last spring, the entire population for- sook the place. Circle City, and hastened to Klondike, and hundreds of good, comfortable log cabins were emptied. Again : The summer has been a memorable one be- cause of the exoltement created by the rich gold discoveries of last winter on the Klondike. I was at St. Michael the 1st of July, when the re- turning miners, with their valuable packages of gold dust, reached that port en route to the States, and later in the fall when thousands of miners reached St. Michael from the States en rotite to the Klondike mines. Again : My observations at tha various mining camps along the river, and my conversations with min- ors that had been from ons to several years in the country, and a persoqgl iiLspection of gold dust brought out by various persons, Lave led me to feel that the public statements of the rlch- nesij of the minus clustered around the Klondike have not been exaggerated. Again, this officer reporting, who is the general agent of education for Alaska, Mr. Sheldon Jackson, says : Wherever a prospector has experimented on the streams and creeks, not only in the Yukon val- ley, but also on the strecuns north of the Arctic circle running into the Arctic Ocean, as well as a number of the great streams running into the Pacific Ocean, evidence.) of gold deposits have been found, making Alaska probably the largest fields of gold deposits In the world. 19 Then we have anothei- source of informa- tion In a lecture delivered by Mr. Ogllvle In Victoria, and a reference to this v(rlll strengthen the position I tooB: at the begin- ning of my observations, that we are hand- ing over not only a rich gold possession to these contractors, the extent of which the Minister of Railways confessed he could not even guess, but we are handing over what acknowledged authorities say is the largest tract of rich gold deposits the world has ever known. Mr. OgilVle, In his lecture, at page 10 of the report, says : We must have from 90,000 to 100,000 square miles, which, with proper care. Judicious haiirt ling and Improved facilities for the transportation of food and utecslls, will be the largest, as it is probably the richest gold field the world has ever known. Again, he says : There are men in that country \vho are pool and who will remain so. It has not been their luck, as they call it, to strike it rich, but 1 may say that that country offers to men of great for- titude, steadiness and some intelligence an oppor- tunity to make moro jnoney in a given time than they could possibly make anywhere else. Again : In conclusion let me say that we have in th^ far north land a vast region comprising from 60,000 to 100.000 square miles of untold possibili- tie.s. Rich deposits we know exist in it, and tot aught we know many more equally rich may yet be found. We know now that there Is sufficient to supply a population of 100,000 people, and 1 look forward to seeing that number of people in that country within the next ten years. Hon. gentlemen may consider that in bringing to the attention of the House, not for the first time, testimony as to the min- eral wealth of their country, there is not altogether a proper appreciation of the time of the House ; but it is a remarkable fact that testimony to the value of that country now comes from this side of the House and from hon. members opposed to this BUI, while hon. gentlemen who are seeking to minimize the mineral wealth of the Yukon are those who are seeking to put through this gift to Mackenzie & Mann. But there ia another matter which troubles hon. gentlemen opposite, I think. There has been confusion among members on the Trea- sury benches as to what 'they really intend- ed to give these contractors, and as to what the conditions of the contract are. What have we to say In view of the conflict be- tween the Minister of the Interior and the ofllcer who was sent to that country with the most extraordinary instructions, or at all events clothed with very wide authority Indeed ? The Minister of the Interior said : Somebody the other night— I think it was the hon. member for West York (Mr. Wallace)--in a sarcastic tone, wanted to know why Major Walsh was camped far from Dawson City. In the name of common sense, what would he be doing at Dawson City ? Wo have forty mounted police Sir C H T— 2* ! and a sufficient staff of officers there to do the ! work. Where are these Instruotionis ? Tlie Prime I Minister, as I understooi^ him, said that there was not a line to that effect in 'the In- structions. We were told : j Major Walsh is at the place he was told to ] stay, attending to the business bo was sent to ; attend to. i But Major Walsh has been heard from, and j Major Walsh was asked . I " Well, Major, were you disappointed at being : hold up here by the ice ? " Y'j.s, I wa.'j much diiiappolnted, 1 was vei-y anxious to get to Selkirk at least, with all my party and with it to Dawson City." I There is, not merely a contradiction between colleagues, but there ia a veiy serious con- tradiction between the Commissioner and tlie Minister of the Interior in regard to a i matter not wholly unimportant in this con- ' nectioa. Tliere ^ confusion an to tlie facts, but, wluit is even a more serious thing, there is a bewildering confusion amongst Ministers I on the Treasury benches as to ttie rights of I this country in our relations vitii the United I States. Yesterday, the Prime Minister, in urging this Parliament not to pay any heed ; to what the United States authorities might do, in connection with the transhipment of I goods on the Stikine River, told us, that If I the United States attempted to contravene a solemn treaty, there was a remedy easily I at hand. Mark you, Mr. Speaker, the Gov- ernment are relying upon this, that If we in Canada are interfered with by the United States customs authorities on me Stikiue River, and if that Interference Is against the letter or spirit of the treaty, we have our remedy, and that remedy is that we can go to a United States court, and in the face of a United States statute obtain a vindication of our rights under the treaty, because, as the Prime Minister says— and it is upon this , supposition the Government are going— a treaty is paramount to a statute in the United States. I listened in vain for the opinion of the Solicitor General on that sub- ject, aud I say here and now, that neither the Minister of Justice nor the Solicitor Gen- eral of Canada will endorse that opinion of the Prime Minister. Sir, what a plight are we not in, when, in pushing this enterprise on the assurances that are given to us against these threats, or supposed threats, from the south, are of that nature. Let us see exactly what the law is in the United States ; it was settled long ago. The law is, that a treaty which is ratified by their Congress— and, if it be not so ratified, it is not a treaty at all— is a part of the law of the land. It obtains its effect and vital- ity from the action of their Congress, just as a statute does, and it is paramount to all the statutes that contravene It which have been passed anterior to the sanction of that treaty. But, Sir, there is not a jurist in the 20 • M Unltpd States wlio prctenda tbat the body that brought that treaty into life cannot undo It and every line and evei*y letter In it, the very next day or the very next mo- ment. The reapouBlblllty Is not between the law courts and the Government; the respon- sibility Is between either party to the trea/ty. Their rights are not In the courts of the United States ; their rights are in the diplo- matic chamber ; their rights have to be set- tled as they are generally settled, between independent governments. There Is not a pretense of authority In the United States to support the proposition laid down by the Prime Minister of Canada yesterday. Whe- ther clause 13 Is contrary to the spirit or provisions of that treaty, or whether any ^'^- Is passed In the Congress of the United States, contrary to the provisions of the treaty, we have not the slightest ground to go upon to cause us to believe that we can obtain relief in any court of the United States. Our only remedy for the violation of that treaty would be in tne usual way. namely, through the Bi-ltlsh Government. The Minister of Public Works does not seem to accept the law as I lay it down, but he will find it is said In Wharton ! A treaty may supersede a prior Act of Parlia- ment, and an Act of Congress may supersede a prior treaty. That la the law, and authorities are cited for it. But let me give the opinion of an Attor- ney General of the United States, long ago ; for there has not been an occasion In re- cent years for an Attorney General of the United States to instruct any one either at home or abroad on such a condition of aflfairs in connection with the administration of their laws. Crittenden says : I am not Insensible to the sanctity of treatise, and appreciate the public Importance of theli- faithful observance. But their moral effect and their obligation under the laws of nations is not now the subject of consideration. The question before us involves the legal effect of treaties un- der our constitution, and the political powers o^ this Oovernment In respect to them. To say that a treaty annuls every Act of Congress that comes in conflict with it, is to place the whole political power of the Government in perpetual subjection to it. The supreme political and legislative power of this country is placed In the hands of the Government of tha United States, under the constitution, and its Acts are uncontrollable, ex- cept only by that constitution ; and that constitu- tion does not say that Congress shall pass no law Inconsistent with a treaty ; and it would have been a strange anomaly if it had Imposed any sucb prohibition. There may be cases of treaties so Injurious, or which may become so by changed circumstances, that it would be the right and duty of the Government to renounce or disre- gard them. Every Government must judge and determino for itself the proper occasion for the exercise of such power, and such a pcwer I suppose, Is impliedly reserved by every party to a treaty, and I hope and believe belongs inalienably to the Government of the United States. It is true that such a power may be abused ; so may the treaty-making power of all other powers, but for our security agalEst such abmse we maj and must rely on the Integrity, wisdom and good faith of our Oovernment. These are autho'-ltles which it would not have been necessary for me to refer to, were it not for the extraordinary proposltlpn solemnly laid down on a great and exciting occuMlon by the Prime Mi'hlater of this coun- try, when he, yesterday, endeavoured to give comfort by telling us. that n treaty in the United States was paramount to a law that Congress made Itself. I have Just given the authority to show that no such Idea obtains, and that that theory of the Prime Minister can afford no comfort Oi' relief to aiiy hou. gentleman who desires to support this Bill. It is bad enough to suppose that Ministers are proceeding In such Ignorance of the con- ditions that surround them, and on this sub- ject of treaties I may call your attention to the startling contradiction between the Min- ister of Railways (Mr. Blair) and the Minis- ter of the Inferior (Mr. SIfton). The Minis- ter of Railways rushed to this House with this contract that had been arranged in haste, and with regard to the Stlkine River he told us : We are not subject to any con- ditions. Then, tiie Minister of the Interior, finding that a very weak case had been made in support of the Bill, In a speech de- livered loud enough for us to hear— whether we could understand it or not. Is another question— told us. that our rights were cur- tailed under the Treaty of Washington, und later on, that same gentleman, forgetful uf this difficult question and of these difficul- ties between his colleagues and himself, said : So that we consider ourselves In a perfectly Im- pregnnblo pusition in regard to the navigation of the Stlklno River. In one portion of his speech, when he was endeavouring to prove that Sir John Mac- donald had lost us our right to the naviga- tion of these rivers, we were always in danger, according to him ; but later on, when speaking of that treaty, and when he had no point to make against the late Conserva- tive chief, he assured us that our position under the treaty was unassailable. I/ater on, with no other treaty, no other under- standing, we we/e assured that our position was sound and unassallajble ; and ten min- utes afterwards, this same gentleman, hur- rying over important subjects like these, so that he could not remember the positions he had taken up in the very same debate be- fore, said, as to our right to tranship on the Stiklne River : That is a question upon which we can give no positive statement. We who stand in .an impregnable posi- tion, we who are subject to no conditions whatever on the Stlkine — when you ask us how aibout our rights of itranshiimient, have to tell you that that is a question upon which we can give no positive state- ment. The Prime Minister, If 1 rec»llect aright, did attempt yesterday to give us a 21 positive statement. We would like to bacK him up ; we would like to back the Oov- ernuicut up In the most extreme position, which It would be necessary for us to take, as to those treaty rights ; but It certainly looks IIS li! this weak and halting suggestion of the Minister of the Interior were what CougiVHS 1h now acting upon. The Solicitor General Insinuated that It was the observa- tions made on this side of the House that suggested to Congress that they should em- barrass us. that they should deal wltb this question of transhipment so as to render this scheme abortive ; but the direct and positive evidence that gives force to the suggestion that the Idea came from hon._ gentl.iinen opposite I hold under my hand," ii) the fact that a Minister of the Crown In Cana'la told the United States seveml weelvs ago, bofor3 these Bills dealing wItJi tran- shipment or bonding were Introduced Into Congress, that this question of transhipment was one on which we could give no positive statement. Then later on, the Minister of the Interior said : ■ I It Is a question ' A question, mark you—our right under j the troaty. a matter so plain that the Prime Minister would not consider for a moment the possibility of Congress doing anything to Interfere with It It is a question which, if disputed,, must be ' decided either by negotiation or by reference to , a, competent tribunal. j And what are we to do In the meantime? i We have had negotiations with the United States. We have had negotiations this year, and most extraordinary things happen- ' €d. The negotiators could not understand each other. We sent the Minister of the Interior to Washington, or at any rate he ' went there to advise, and he came back ! thinking he had made a bargain of a certain character ; but it took him six weeks to find out that the other party to the bargain had never heard of it at all, and did not agree to It. Now, let us see what Is happening In Congress, and how much iion. gentlemen on the other side of the House know of it, | from anything we have heard from them. There is the Prime Minister In hlf seat, and ' the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and the Minister of Inland Revenue, and the Minister of Public Works, and the Minister of Customs, and the Postmaster General, , and the Solicitor General— a very fair re- i presentation of the Cabinet ; and I would ask them now, for the purposes of my argu- 1 ment, whether they are aware of any other ; measure than the Bill containing the clause i 13 mentioned yesterday, which deals with j the subject of transhipment, now before Congress. I ask that, for this reason. The I Prime Minister and the Minister of Marine ! and Fisheries took the position that it Is ■ arguable whether clause 13 deals with tran- ; shipment at all. Am I not fair In saying! I that those hon. gentlemen endeavoured to allay alarm and excitement in this country over clause 13 by saying that it related to the Iwndlng of goods, and not to the tran- shipment of goods V For that reason, I ask the Prime Minister, who Is in charge of o\ir interests at a most critical time— I ask him in good faith— Is he aware of any other measure dealing witli the subject of tran- shipment before Congress ? The PRIME MINISTER (Sir Wilfrid Laurler). There may b(>, but I am not aware of any. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TtiPPER. Well, Mr. Speaker, I think this Bill had better be withdrawn. I think that, not merely for the reasons which I gave at; the conunencemont of my speech, but I think It had better be withilrawii until w«' have the Government advised of a Bill which Is now passing through Congress dealing directly with the subject of trnnslilpineut. I have under my hand, not merely the Bill dealing with the subject of transhliunent, but a re- port of thi! Secretary of the Treasury re- commending that Bill to Congress ; and we are chlded with taking up time discussing a Bin concerning transhipment on the Stl- klne when to-day members on the Treasury benches do not know of the legislation be- fore Congress dealing directly with that sub- ject. Were the Government ever in a more humiliating position ? Is it possible for us to imagine a more humiliating position for them to * n— that In regard to tranship- ment, on wulch they say there Is a question, they do not know that the Government of the United States are asking power at the hands of Congress to make any regulation they please concerning our privilege of tran- shipment op the Stlkine River ; and the le- gislation is of such a general character, that we are not to know what the regulations are until the Secretary of the Treasury has considered and made them— that he will bo given such wide discretionary power that, iir'ter that Bill goes through Congress, at his own sweet will and in his own time The PRIME MINISTER. Hear, hear. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. The hon. gentleman cannot afford to sneer at my observation, for he has not read the Bill. The PRIME MINISTER. Pardon me. If the hon. gentleman refers to the Bill which he has In his mind, I have read every line of it. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. I acted upon the hon. gentleman's statement that he knew of no other Bill. The PRIME MINISTER. I know what Bill the hon. gentleman refers to. I am not aware that it affects this question. The hon. gentleman refers to a Bill whereby the Secretary of the Treasury Is authorized to make regulations with regard to tranship- li^aii^c 22 noent— a Bill "hlch is perfectly ponslBtent with thr povvern of the United StnteH. I stated yesterdny that the executive nuthor- ly of the United States has the right to make reKuliiHons for tluvlr own protection, but not i to (U'fcat our right. i Sir OHAULKS MIBBEIIT TUlTBIt. I | am wlllInK to take tl.lH auHwer of the Prime ! Minister, that he did know of a Bill dealing , with trauHhIpuieut other than that contain- 1 ing clause IS. { The PUIME MINISTBU. The hon. gen- j tlenian cunnot llnd a clause lu that Bill i iilToctlng this (luestlon. It la only for the making of regulations. Sir CHARLES HIBBBllT TUPPER. Ex- cuse me ; I have tlic floor. The hon. gentle- man knew of the Bill after 1 explained it. Before I explained It, the hon. gentleman told me that he did not know of any other Bill than that containing clause 13. The PRIME MINISTER. This Is an In- sinuation that Ih hardly worthy of the hon. gentleman ; but, Mr. Speaker, let the hon. gentleman read his Bill, and he will And that thei'B Is nothing at all In It but power given to the Secretary of the Treasury, and the other proper officers to make regula- tions. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. That Is what I stated. The hon. gentleman surely does me an injustice when, after I stated what the Bill contained, he informed me that he did know of It. Of course, the hon. gentleman withdraws what he said be- fore, when he told me, as distinctly as any- one could, and as " Hansard " will show, that he did not know. The hon. gentleman evidently had forgotten, and I think he will tTnd that this Bill is not the insignificant Bill which he supposes It Is. I shall, if the House will permit me, take time to show that this is part, and a part and parcel, of a systematic plan attempted | by the United States on the western coast of \ the Dominion, for tlie purpose of capturing and securing trade at the expense of Cana- i dlan enterprise ; and It is a dangerous thing j for the First Minister of this country to re- i gard so lightly a provision which he says : he understands. Mr. SUTHERLAND. Legislation promot- ed by Mr. Hamilton Smith. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. The hon. gentleman is making an extraordinary j statement. Does he make it seriously or In i chaff ? i Mr. SUTHERLAND. I believe it is true : —Mr. Hamilton Smith and his associates. i Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. The ! hon. gentleman says, that Mr. Smith Is pro- ' motlng a Bill which tbe First Minister de- I Clares is a harmless and a very ordinary Bill > regarding the subject of transhipment ; and , so we are somewhat bewildered. I ven- ! lure to say, tho the right hon. the FIrsrt Minister, at any rate, does not shau' the Huppoaltlon that Mr. Hamilton Smith is th« suggestor and prompter of tJiese Hills for the creation of difHcuUles by means of vexa- tious bond and ti-ansl.ipmont regulations of the United States. Mr. HUTIIERI-ANl). That Is what he and his associates are doing, and you are giving them the time to do It. Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. Lot me point out, that on ihe loth of January Congress was lulormed. n<>t only of the Bill having to do with this tranHliipment, but of a leport from the Secretary of the Treasury, .Mr. liyman .J. (>age, who, to my knowledge, has been In communication, not with Mr. Hamilton Smith, but wltli parties out on the Pacitlc Coast whom he was assisting— and he was right from his own point of view— and co-operating with, and who are compet- ing with Canadians for the YuKon trade. This report of Secretary Gage is a very Im- portant document, and had considerable weight in the discussion of the Bill by Con- gress. It is dated the 0th February, and. In referring to the subject under discussion from different points of 'lew. he says : In order to cover more explicitly the situation, sta-goliiK vessels can pr'jcecd to St. Michael, near the mouth of \he Yukon. The Yukon Is very shallow, In some places only four feet deep. Transff-rs of cargo and passengers from deep- diauglu sea-going vessels to river vessels draw- ing lltiJH waier are therefore necessary at St. Mlcliail ; substantially the same as Is true of the Stlkine River, and Wrangel, near Its mouth. Then other clauses of the Bill— for the BUI deals with other subjects as well— come in ; and, after referring to these provisions, touching particularly the coasting trade, Secretary Gage goes on to say : Section 3 is designed to give the Secretary of the Treasury full powers to regulate the trans- fer of cargoes and passengers from deep-sea vessels to shallow vessels bound up the Yukon and the Stlkine. Tha conditions under which such transfeis will occur cannot now be fully foreseen, so the bestowal of discretionary power In this Secretary of the Treasury seems the only way to meet the situation. ?Ion. gentlemen opposite can only comfort themselves by assuming that the Secretary of the Treasury will make those regulations in conformity with treaty rights and obliga- tions. But the trouble is, that he Is vested by that Bill witli wide and ample power to ruinously embnrras.'? and impede our trade and shipping up the Stlkine River. That BUI M-as imder consideration on Febniai-y 1.5th In Congi'ess, and that report was road In conjunction with It. and this explanation was given why this discretionary power Is vested in the Secretary of the Treasury : This is madfc to apply to the new station' in Alaska In the na>-Igation of the Yukon and Stlk- ine rlverr. The Secretary says It Is impossible to frame a statute which might not do great In- justice, and so it Is left In the discretion of the 23 BerroUry of the Trniury to make suob lawi and rogulAtlons aa the commerce on: thli river re- qiilrei. That mil Is H;1I No. n.^OS, nnd Is llic ono rofomvl to tilt' Commlt'to*' on ilic Mcnlmnt Mnrlnt' nn»l I'Mshorlcn. Tlio Sccivlary ox- plnliiod that tlio Hill covcfH llic Yukon and Stlklno rlvi'ift, so that, until tlii' Hccrotary of the 'rroasury maki'M II f ivKiilatlons or .inH oonic to a conclusion, wc are left aiwo- lutt'ly In the (lark as to wlu'thcr we are to lK> hothcrod unfairly, or as to what the na- ture of thpso re,i;ulntli>ns will be at all. The MINISTKU OF CTTSTOMS (Mr. PuterHon). Is the hon. pMitleniau aware whether any rejiulatlons have alrejidy boon made with reference to the Yukon V Sir CHAUI^KS lllBREUT TIM'PKU. Ves, the hon. gentleman told us ho. The FIUST MINISTKU. Not under thlH Bill. air GHARLKS HIBBKRT TUPriOU, No, It \h not law, and whatever reRulatlons are made, the hon. Kei.tleman will understand, can be very easily nunmde by a party that has these wide dlat-retlouary powers, and Mr. (JaKO states particularly that ho Is de- sirous of getting Into his hands this power, so as to make reRulatlons that may fit the circumstances. All the rejiulatlons that are now existing will, of course, stand In tlie way very little time, should the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States consider It necessary to rei)lace them by others. But lot us take section 13 of another Bill, n Bill with a title not exactly Roneric to this question. It Is an Act extending the home- stead laws and providing for right of way for railroads in the district of Alaska. 1 have It as It was Introduced, and I Jiave It as It passed, according to the newsiapera. Section 13 of this Bill provides : That under rules and regulations to be' prfl- Bcribed by tho Secretary of the Tre.>a'iry, the I privilege of entering goods in wa rehouses and merchandise la bond, or of plac'ng them in bonded warehouses at the port of Wrangel, dis- trict of Alaska, and of withdrawing the same for exportation to any place in British Columbia or tho North-west Territories without payment of duty, is hereby granted to the Government of the Dominion of C <.nada and its citizens, or cit- izens of the Uniteo tates, whenfiver, and so long as it shall appear to he catisfaction of the Pres-« icient of the Unlter' States, who shall ascertain and declare the fi.jt by proclamation, that no exclusive privilege of transporting through Brl- ♦Ish Columbia or the North-west Territories, goods or passengers arriving from or destined for other ports in Alaska, is grar*'^ to any persons or corporations by the Government of the Dominion of Canada, and'' that the privilege has been duly p corded to responsible pe/sons operating transportation lines in British Col- umbia or the North-west Territories of making direct communication with transportation lines in Alaska, and that the Governmrnt of tho Dominion has conseuteJ to, and is a lowing on behalf of the citizens of the United States the entry free of duty of all miners' outfits and' a 'lieges denied them supply of provlilonii and clcthlng. the wbol(« not I'xcecdlng In quaiitlly one thouBand pounds for each citizen of th<> United StntcK proponing to t'l.i^iiKt* in inlnlnK in llrlllHli ColutnhU or thn North-went TerrltorlcH, and that tho (lovprnmcnt nf tho DoMilnlon of Citn.Hda has romoved all un- ('(|iuil reitrlctloiiH !o the l!4<' United Stateii uperatllig or iiiti'iiilliiK to iipcrato In HrltUh Cnlumbla or the .V(,rth-wo3t Terrltorif*. And then it i)rovldoH t^at w(> shall grp'it .Vmerlcan fishermen ))rlvr by ue.'ity. There is, therefore, the end)arrassnii'nt to be ('(iiisldtred. ItUMlness men know better than 1, that, owing to tl;.' i-oiidillon of the Hca. li ma.v bt* Imjx'ssible. when a ship reaches Wrangel, to \inload *"i()m tin- vessel Into lighters, and it may be nec('s>jaiy to land and warehouse tl.e goods for a longer or shorter lime, aeoordlng to th(< ciicum- Htances. The enibarnissment that may he caused under that clause will not be mini- mized l)y one who looks tit these matters In the light of the ordinary principles of carry- ing on business. It being Six o'clock, tho Speaker left the Chair. After Kece&a. Sir CIIAKLES IIIBBEUT TUIM'KK. I am sorry that, on continuing my observa- tions I have only the pleasure of seeing the Prime Minister (Sir Wilfrid Laurlor) and the Minister of Inland Uevenue (Sir lleurl Joly de lyotbinl^re) In their places. How- ever, I take it that the absence of other hon. Minister.s may 1)6 simply a reflection upon myself. I ihope that, so far as they are concerned, it Is not an indication of any diminishing interest in this iutorefll- ing question. The Minister of the Interior (Mr. Sifton), I see, lias arrived— and it Is only fair to say that since my observa- tion was made the Solicitor General (Mr. Fltzpah'lck) lias been good enough to enter an appearance, and the Minister of Pul)lic Works (Mr. Tarte) la also ready for the fray. Tlie MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. If tlie hon. gentleman (Sir Charles Ilibbert Tupper) will only have patience for a little, he will have a distinguished audience. Sir CHARLES HIBBEBT TUPPER. It could not be more distlnguislied, now that the lion. Minister of the Interior Is here. The lion, gentleman, speaking some time ago, but speaking in this debate, said among many otlier extraordinary tilings, that, for- sooth, we had no cause of complaint against the United States. Let me not misrepre- sent the statement of the hon. gentleman. Let me read the very language he used : We have had no cause of complaint against the United States Government because of their deal- ings with us upon this question. 24 It" 'I' And again : When I was there Speaking of bis visit to Washington an(\ of a member of the United States Goveru- ment, wlic is call I liere tbe Secretary of the Navy, but really, I suppose tbe Seei-e- tary of tbe Treasury— I do not suppose tbat "Hansard" is correct In tbat. lu> said that he would have them Issued in such a way as to facilitate our trade In any rea- sonable way that we had any right to expect, and that he would be ablei to get them out in a short time. And again : The Secretary of the Treasury did assure that he would at once I call your attention to this, Mr. Speaker,— "that be -would at once" issue regulations which would have the effect of doing away with the necessity of paying these fees, iind I so telegraphed to the Board of Trade cf Victoria, and, I think, that of Vancouver. Tbe regulations were to have been drafted and issued at once. So that then, we bad this state of facts admitted by the Min- ister of tbe Interior of the Dominion of Canada to exist— tbat long ago be went to Washington and reacbed an agreement with the Secretary of the Treasury of the United Sta.tes in regard to regulations con- cerning the custon^s upon goods passing from Canada through United States -terri- tory into the Yukon country. And, after many weeks, after extraordinary and un- explained delays on the part of the United States, costing the people of itbls country, east and west, many thousands of dollars, eml)arriiissiag tlie business of Canada, I venture to say, to an extraordinary degree, there came regulations which dealt wholly with Dyea and Skagway and ignored the Stikiue Kiver altogether. All tills was tbe result of tbe visit of a member of the Canadian G-overnment to the city of Washington, and be bad no cause of complaint against tbe Government of the United States. Musit we eat bumble pie all tbe time. Mr. Speakei" ? Must we go bat in" band to tbe governors of the United States, and be thankful that they courteously receive us ? Must we not comp'ain if an understanding is not com- piled with ? Either the Minister of the Interior is exceedingly deceived or bis state- ment is incredible, that be bad no cause of complaint. Weil, let us see. I have gl\en you what be stated to this House, and I will sow you from other statements bo has made, bow our Minister of the Imterlor was dealt with by these gentle- men in cbai'ge of the public affairs of the United States. Lt appears that he bad made all the concessions tbat the United States desired be should make. He was frank and explicit, let us give blm credit for that, as to how far Canada would go In regard to the concessions that they de- sired, and those were made in no doubt- ful manner. Ho received from them pro- mises, and though the promises stood for ; weeks without any performance, and though I definite regulations issuing out of those ne- I gotiations from the United States wholly ignored this route tbat, is so indispenaalble now in tbe eyes of the Government, and so necessary for our purposes, the bon. gentleman cbided in advance any one who would dare to rise in bis place in this House and tlud fault with the manner in which the United States Government bad dealt with him. Dealt with bim ! Why, they played with bim, Mr. Speaker ; they played with bim as they would play with a child ; and the extraordinary thing is that tbe child, after being played with, di-^l not understand the gaule they \\ere at. Now, let me see what he told tbe business people of tbe coast be had accomplished on this mission. On tbe 3rd of January, 1898, he wii-ed to tbe Board of Trade of Victoria as follows :— Have Just returned from Washington where I have Got a promise ? No, Mr. Speaker : where I have completed arrangements en- suring passage of Canadian goods by way of Dyea and Skagway sub-ports without charge for in- spection referrsd to in your telegram and corres- pondence. Trjaaury Department will make ar- rangements to facilitate business. Has the bon. gentleman no cause for com- plaiut against the United States ? or does he consider our position in Canada so bum- ble and so contemptible that be dare not make complaints if the very best faith is not kept with bim V If tbat statement; is correct, and I believe when the bon. gentleman sent that telegram he believed it was correct, I know of no language suffi- cient to cliaracterize the treatment tbat was accorded to bim by the United States authorities, no language sufficient to de- plore and to decry tbe spirit tbat prompted them so to delude, and so to deceive, the Minister of the Interior. He had com- pleted arrangements on the 3rd of January ^^hich ensured this passage of goods foi- sooth, by a route which is now a second- ary affair, not to be mentioned even in connection with the Slikine River ; and per- haps the Minister of the Interior will con- fess that on that occaaica he had no ar- rangement whatever in regard to the Sti- klne River, and no understanding w'ltb the United States Government. From what has occurred in oongress, from the action of the Secretory of tlie Treasury since, I take it then; can be no question what- ever that the Minister of Lhe Interior en- tirely overlooiied tbe necessity of coming to any arrangement with them in regard to this essential portion of tbe Government pi'ogramme that is, now submitted to us. However, on January 4th. the people of tbe Pacific Coast, relying on tbe acuteness of tiie Minister of the Interior, supposing 25 that he was equal to the occasion, suppos- ing that he undei*atood what had happened at Washdngton, congratulated him in this manner : Your telegram has created better feeling amongst merchants here. Moat Important Wash- Int'ton authorities wire proper instructions, Skag-. way and Dyea ; any delay will graatly prejudice Canadian trade. North bcunu steamers with full Seattle passenger lists leaving frequently. But little did the people of the Pacific Coast understand the administrative capacity of the Minister of the Interior and his instinct for government, upon \\'^hleh he d^elt to the immense amusement of this House a short time ago, when he having botched and bungled the whole of this business from be- ginning to end, dared to rise in his place and sneer at the instinct of government possessed by Sir John A. Macdonald. When I heard that hon. gentleman, when I saw his scorn, feigned or unfeigned, in regard to the career of that great statesman, when I heard him d'.scuss and criticise the states- manship of Sir John A. Macdonald, T re- membei'ed the old adage that a live dog was better than a dead lion. On no other prin- ciple that I can conceive would the Minister of the Interior be warranted in the sneers and scoffs that he threw against that great name. Well, the people of Yictoria soon loarned to measure the value of our new plenlpovenriary at Washington, soon under- stood hovr much the telegram of January meant. Eo monstrances came from the coast fifteen daya afierwards, be informed the people of that coast : Saturday regulations being Issued Immediately. Eat still no ciiuse of complaint, not a ground of comi)Iaiut from the Minister of the Interior, we are to assume, had occur- red. Remonstrances cr.me from the coast hiivlng regard to this positive and unquali- fied statement, this unqualified assurance flora a responsible Minister fresh from the negollatious at Washington, after bu.'siness transactions had been based upon his as- surance, rei ions trances followed and fol- lowed quickly and dally. On the 2ath Janu- ary, this telegram went from the Minister of the Interior to the Board of Trade : It was arranged, that there should be no regula- tions at Stikine that would harass our trade, but not specilically provided that same regulatloius adopted at Dyea aud Skagway should apply to Stlklue. Still no regulations ; still the oQcers of the Unitec" States at the Sound, up on the Stikine, at Dyea and Skagway, everywhere that they could be found on that coast, were embarrassing every Canadian steamship company, stating that thei e were no Instrnc- 1 tlons received from Washington. Stlil, of; course, (hose who had an , Idlng faith In j the Minister of the Interior, and there were j some even then on the coast, excused the ; Minister by stating that the instructions j no doubt had been settled, but tliere had ' not been time to communicate them to these outpo.sts. In the meanwhile, our rivals in the United States ports, at Seat<:'e and other ports on the Pacific, were clutch- ing, and grasping, and controlling trade In connection with our own Yukon country. That was on the 20th. But again on the samf day another telegram came from the Mini.'^ter of the Interior : Am advlseci this morning by the Assistant Sec- retary of the Treasury that the collector of cus- toms for Alaska would be In Washington ia two or three days, and that regulations are held pending conference with htm. This shows the manner In which the Gov- ernment acted, againi»t which there Is no cause of complaint ! The hon. gentle- man, acting as the representative of the British Crown, had exhibited the very best of faith. Everything be had assured the people at Washington would be done he had implemented to the very letter, which It was his bounden duty to do ; and 1 can understand him resenting, even If he thought It was not politic to express It, the action of those authorities, but I cannot understand him unt^er the circumstanced endeavouring to excuse this extraordinary conduct on the part of the United States Governinent, un- less he was wholly erroneous, wholly In- accurate in regard to that telegram of Jan- uary 3rd In which he st.ated that the ar- rangements and regulations had actually been completed. It was not necessary to bring from Alaska the collector of customs to discuss regulations that had been ar- ranged and agreed to, according to the tele- gram of the Minister. Again, we had another version from the Minister as to what happened. Ou 22nd January, he telegraphed to Captain Irvine In Victoria : Arrangement was that instructions should' be given which would do away v.ith customs charges and inspection fees. Treasury Department has not yet i.ssued instructions. Have been wiring thein constantly. Last telegraph says they ex- pect to close in a day or two. Have done every- thing possible ; dn not see what more I can do. Expect it is only a matter of a few Qoys. I am in the hearing of the hon. Minister of the Interior, aud he knows he was gre- viously disappointed ; that though he sent this telegram on 22nd January, it was not a matter of a few days but of weeks, and the matter was not settled until after 22nd January, when the Minister of Ga^.'oms had to come down to the House first with regu- lations and instructions that concerned the Dyea and Skagway only, and afterwards he supplemented the statement by saying the Government would obtain further Informa- tion and advice applicable to the case of the Stikine River. I therefore, join Issue with the hon. Minister of the Interior, and I say we are doing our duty here in expressing our re- sentment against the treatment shown to n Minister of the Crown who went to Wash- ington, and In good faith conducted these a V ^: jit' 26 negotiations with the authorities of the Uuitert States, and was treated in the con- temptible manner in which the Minister ot the Interior was treated, and he had not the sjiirlt to resent that treatment though it has cost the people of this country many and many a dollar. I come again, then, to make good my position in regard to the absolute futility of r€>lying on *'^e good will of the United States or upou the United States view of International laAA' as hereto- fore expressed in connection with any scheme or proposition f-at aims at the de- velopment of the Dor nlon of Canada. I have .lust as high an opinion of individuals in the United States as iiuy hon. gentleman on the opposite side of the Hou.se, and when I charge against that government hostility to this country, when I charge against that country every ungenerous effort that can be made to thwart us In advancing Dominion interests, I refer to their pernicious system of politics, deplorable and humiliating, and I believe many thousands of Americans are as much disgusted with their system of }:overumei,t as are our own people so far as relatioub u;lth Canada are concerned. I am against voting a pingi . dollar or a single acre of land in Canada, mineral or other- wise, to any project that depends on the good will of the United States for the suc- cessful carrying out of that scheme for which the land is appropriated. We may have done so before, If you like ; but having had experience of the United Stater., we should look at the facts, and look the posi- tion in the face, and placo oui- lines and ar- rangements and our plans, as we can do and as this country is r.oh enough to do and AvilUng enough to do, wholly apart from them and wholly Irrespective of what they Avish or seek. I say we cannot rely on those people showing towards us the slight- est measure of fair-play. Some hon gen- tlemen seem to speak with bated breath when referr'MK to the conduct of the United States ; It i J an awful thing to say anything '.espectin„ even a United Statts citizen in this House of Commons, as I have heard during this debate. If t'lere is any British subject afraid of saying what he thinks, 1 have under my hand the authority of those who advise directly Her Majesty the Queen to show that they are not built of that stuff. I have under my hand the lanjiiage of those advising the Queen now tl.at points out directly, emphatically and In he strong- est laiguage possible not only ho\ those peo- ple to the south of us, represent ad by their Government, will not only twi' ; and vary treaties and w'll twist and torti ; principles of law, but V. Ill scheme and ai ange so as to grasp every advantage possible, regard- less of any consequences whatever. I.,et me give the House an example. For In- stance, there has been a difference of opin- ion in this House as to whether the T'-eaty of 182.> gave the people of this coui.trv *b"e right to navigate the Yukon. Mr. Blake, no mean authoi*lty, was of the opinion, contrary .as I have endeavoured to show, to the opinion prevailing in England, that we had under that treaty, notwithstanding the purchase of the country by the United States, the absolue right to navigate the Yukon. No one will doubt we got the right, whatever the other question may be, under the Treaty of Washington, and we got the I'lght to navigate the Stikine under tliat ti'eaty, if we did not enjoy it in 1871 under the Treaty of 1825. Yet thei'e is the best authority to show that after that Treaty of 1871, and for several years thereafter no British bottoms could go up the Stikine River. There was the treaty. Hon. gen- tlemen opposite are willing to risk the re- sources of this country on the assumption that the United States will understand and carry out a treaty as we read it ; and yet with the Treaty of 1871 it is a fact that iu 1873 the customs officers of the United States Government on the Stikine prevented and were instructed to prevent any British bottom ascending the waters of that river. We have the authority of Sir Donald Smith, the presei Lord Strathcona, who in this House St, ed, notwithstanding the conten- tion of Mr. Blake, notwithstanding the views of hon gentlemen opposite, who even now think that under the Treaty of 1825 we have a right to navigate the Yukon, British bottoms were not allowed to navigate that river. Let me give the House the language of Sir Donald Smith during the discussion on the Treaty of Washington, as reported in the " Globe." He said : As lo the assumption that free navigation of the Yukon in the North-west was of no praotical use to Canada, ho thought it wa.s otherwise. That nver goes (uto British territory lor a distance somewhere ot 300 or 400 miles, and while it now taltes the Hudson Bay C./mpany sevwral years to net their t^oods from England to points on that river, thoy will, If the treaty is ratified, be able to get their goods to their destination In eighteea months. X,." hon. gentlema-i read a letter from the inecni^.; of State of the United States to prove that no vessels other than those of United States citizens can go up that river. As to the Stikine River, the fact is, that, notwithstanding the Treaty of 1871, as late as 1873 the British vessels were not given their rights under the terms of that treaty, and for confirmation of that I refer hon. gentlemen to the correspondence in the Ses- sional Papers, vol. 11, for the year 1878. These are facts pertinent to tlie very case in point, and let hs see whether that excuse cannot be glv n again by the Americans In connection wi h the propositfon now under consideration. They can say : Oh, yes. the treaty did arr; _ge that you should navigate the Stikine, bit the regulations con< ?niing the treaty and the instructions have not been sent forward to the oflBcers on the Stikine River, but they will be sent forward. In the meantime, notwithstanding the treaty, 27 \1 years elapse before the officers of the United States have Inatnictions to obey it ; on the contrary In the case mentioned up to that time they had instructions which prevented that treaty being operated. In my opinioj, Mr. Speaker, and I have the authority of the Minister of Trade and Commerce for saying it, althougn he is not a lawyer, there ne/f,. was a more monstrous assertion of an unten- able right on the part of any country than theie was by the United States of America in connection wtih the Behring Sea fisheries. They liad not a single shadow of excuse for the action they took, and which they took for tlie i)nri)ose of breaking up a great Canad'an industry and pavalyzhig a large portion of our mercantile marine on the Pacific Coast. Without any foundation in International law, ngainst all the traditions of thoir coun- try, against all tlieir provions interpretations (if internationr-:! law, they simply instructed Iheir revenue cuttei's to sei/.o rigljt and left on the liigh seas, fifty, sixty and seventy miles from land, any sliip floating the Bri- tish flag that dared pursue an industry which they desired should be locked up in the hands of a monopoly of their own citizens. Eleven years have we been discussing this, but yet, with decisions of a most unmistakable character against them, and vacillating from position to position, the Americans have fought us during the whole period. Some of the men that they ruined have died, many of the ships that were concerned have disappeared, and we are still waiting for one dollar of indemnity in compensation for that gross violation of international law and comity of nations— a violation that was perpetrated by the United States simply to break down, as they almost succeeded in breaking down, by virtue of the power they were allowed to exercise regardless of prin- ciple—the Canadian sealing industry. Hall, referring to tliis action of the United States, i says : I I Witll flagrant inconsistencies, the United j States, wlien acquiring possession of Alaska, \ have claimed as attendant upon by virtue of cession from Russia about two-thirds of Behring Sea — a space of 1,500 miles long and 600 iv.'les wide — and upon the ground of this claim have seized British vessels engaged in seal fishing. lA»t me pass from this subject to another idiase of the question. The Minister of Customs smilingly attempted to answer the . expression of my fear that injustice might , be done us under the Act b.v which the Sec- I rotary of the Treasury of the United States will be permitted to make regulations con- cerning the transhipment of British goods at Wrangel ; but let me give him some of our experience with the United States au- thorities on the subject of regulations. Hav- ing Avhipped them from pillar to post on the : questions I have referred to. having ob- ' tained the judgment of an international trl- lumal that they they hud no case at all, re- giilatlons were prescribed under which the seal-hunters in Pacific waters were to be ', guided and governed. The Colonial Ottice, after some experience of these gentlemen in their administration of international regula- tions which had tlieir l)irth in the treaty and the judgment under the treaty, speaks of the' treatment Canadians received at the hands of thei.e people, concerning whom the Minister of the Interior says we have no cause of complaint whatever. Mr. Cham- berlain's department, addressing the For- eign Office and discussing that United States despatch, vulgarly known •■ , the " Shirt Sleeves Despatcl'," of General Shei'iiian, tlius wrote only in September last : The extent to which British sealing vessels have been unecessarilv harassed by the United States patrol vessejs during 1895 and 1896 may be judged from the fact that In 1894, when the British sealing fleet numbered only 22 vessels, 36 boarding operations were performed, an aver- age of one and a half per ves ;el, while in 1895, when a fleet of 40 British vessels were engaged, the number of boardings rose to 18.3, an average of four and a half per vessel, and In 1806 the British fleet of 57 vessels was subjected In Behring Sea alone to 171 boardings by the United States patrol, an average of three times per ves- sel. It is interesting to note that in 1895, 76 United States vessels were subjected to only 156 boarding operations. If the direct adviser of Her Majesty the Queen is not afraid to call a spade a spade, when dealing with the United States, any member of this House may without fear warn the Government of Canada that they are relying upon a broken reed when they rei.v upon the good faith of the United States in maintaining inviolai>le tlie spirit and letter of the different treaties, Lest any one should be timid in this House at the utterance of such language, let me refer again to the language of the Colonial Office in that same despatch, and let us see how the.v understand the position of the TTnited States touching obligations of any kind. In the despatch" I Cnd the following :— The nation which is now so zealous for pro- hibiting the killing of seals on the high seas was. in 1832, with equal zeal asserting a claim of rights for its cltiz»ns, not only to kill seals '>u the h'?h seas, but to land and slaughter them on the snores of a friendly nation. The power which now reproaches Her Majesty's Gov- ernment with " unneighbourly " conduct because they decline to abolish an industry, the lawful- ness of which has never been questioned except by the United Staves, and has, only four years since, been vindicated by the Hilghesb Interna- tional tribunal, did not shrink, in 1832, when the United States sealing vessel " Harriet " had been seized for violating the territory of the re- public of Buenos Ayres in the pursuit of fur seals, from landii,g an armed party at Coledad and carrying off the crew and cargo of the vessel, and from declaring that the seal fishery on those coasts was In future to be free to all Americans, and that the capture of any ves.sel of the United States would be regarded as an act of piracy. They, notwithstanding their action In 1832, notwithstanding their views that certain things would be an act of piracy, did not 28 hesitate to commit against British subjects In 1880 and afterwards, the very self-same acts of piracy, and worse than that, at- tempted to Justify them. Again, this des- patch, coming from ithe office of the Right Hon. Joseph Chamberlain, says : * Tliey (British subjects) have performed with the utmost rigour all the requirements of the award, but they have had to malce continual and unavail- ing |)rotests against the attempts of the United States to hamper and embarrass the operations of Briti.'ih subjects pursuing their lawful vocation. Out on these very waters, on the very coast now under our consideration. You have the evidence from the Britisli Government, new and fresh, you have the opinion of the authorities of the Crown in England, that, in spite of international law, in spite of the judgments of tribunals, in spite of the regulations under treaties, the United States pursue and are pursuing their fell purpose of emlxarrassing and harassing in every possible way, manner and form a British industry In that vicinity. And can yon doubt, Sir, can any man doubt, that what- ever the result of a collision on these ques- tions may be— I mean a collision of opinion, a difference in regard to the intei-pietation of the treaties that have been discussed— tbat the spirit that induced them to liamper us as thty have hampered us on the deeper waters, will prevail when thousands and hundreds of thousands of their citizens on their Paclfl'' Coast are bringing all the pros- sure they I an bring to bear on the Wasli- Ingtou authorities, to give them every con- ceivable advantage in this Yulion country, and in the trade connected with it. I have no manner of doubt whatever, Mr. Spealier, that ni>t only is that their pur- pose, bat from the legislation now before Congress there is cause for any reasonable man to assume that, so far as they can go, shoit of actual offensive and wai- llke demonstrations and actioh agalnat us. the people of the United States will com- pel the Admlnistrnjtion of the day to go. If you do not agree with me, if this is perhaps an extreme position, at any rate it seems to me there is just cause and just reason for the caution that I have endeavoured to inculcate in my speech, that is. that we should have no plan and no proposition for the expenditure of money, OK involving flaancial responsibility for Can- ada in regard to the development of this country, where it is possible that people who have tal^en the action they have taken, who are cons!,iering the measures they are considering, can by any manner of means oome in and even for the time thwart us and embarrass us. I am, therefore, in the strongest manner against, and will vote against any propo- sition for the expenditure of a dollar, or the assumption of responsibility for any action, which is dependent upon United States good-will at the present time for Its successful accomplishment. I am as anxious as any man In this House or out of it can possibly be for all fair and legiti- mate aid being accorded for the develop- ment of this, the richest gold field, a^ I believe It to be. In the world, for the bene- fit of Canadians and Canadian trade. In- deed, I go further than hon. gentlemen on the Treasmry benches. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Fisher), reverting to the old spirit that pervaded the Liberal party, that ft .a- of the future, that fear to risk a dollar to gain anything for the people of this country, spoke of this proposition as worthy of commendation because there was not any money of the people of the east to be risked in it, and because after all we were only risking the gold field Itself, and what It might pro- duce, I go further than that, and I say thait I believe the bulk of the people of Canda to-day, witl: our credit as it Is, with the confideucf that pervades the Canadian breast, in our own strength and In our fin- ancial independence of any other country, would rally round a Government, Grit or Conservative, that would have the pluck and courage to risk the dollars of the Cana- dian peopl'j, not merely to manage and con- trol in a wholly independent manner the trade of that part of Canada, so rich as it undoubtedly is, but to enable the Gov- ernment, l)y a wise and statesmanlike pol- icy, to rely upon the possibility, the human probability, too, of being recouped tenfold by wise and reasonable regulations In the administration of that country, for every dollar expended in order to hold and keep it in our hands. I believe the gentlemen OD your left. Sir, are ready to support this Government in an active and energetic policy that will pledge the resources of this country, wholly apart from any sur- render of our mineral lands, wholly apart from any gambling or speculation in them ; so that we could say to the world : " We told you. and we meant it when we told you, timt we had a rich and vast heritage in the Yukon country, and v hen we asked you to come and risk your resources and your lives in the pursuit of wealth In that part of the world, \ve believed every word we published ; and if it will pay you to venture everything you have, you see that we believe It will pay us and the people o" Canada to risk some of our credit to enable you to go to that country by an all-Conadian route, and to come out of It when you desire." I believe tJiat a speedy anil successful route Into that coun- try can be found, and can be constructed vvithin a reasonable time, from a port on the British Columbia coast. Though I do not profess to be thoroughly proficient as to the merits of the different routes, I be- lieve, from what I have heard in that pro- vince from gentlemen who are familiar with the country in general, that a route from a British Columbia port into the Yukon can be built, which would be partially. If 29 aoit wholly, adapted to the other different routes— at any rate, to the Edmonton route and the Ashcroft route, with very slight deviation later on. At present I believe it Is our bonnden duty to push on at any reasonable cost, but with the honest, bona flde risk of the money of the people of this country, in the construction of such a road. But under no circumstances, 1 say again, will I vote for a national gamble in this case or in any other case. With the general purport of the amendment, I am in full and hearty accord. The only qualification I would make in it is that I have no hesitation in being a little more definite than that ; and Instead of saying, "the best available route, judging from all we have heard," I would vote for a route which begins in the province of British Columbia, and went to the points that have been mentioned ; as our practical friend. a gentleman of great experience, the hon. member for Compton CSlr. Pope), has said, i not tx) begin up in the ice region to build a railway between different icicles, but to j build on the coast and push our way in— ; building a cheaper road ; cheaper to the ! men who would undertake the contract, I and cheai)er in the end to the Dominion : of Canada. I Those are my principles, Mr. Speaker, and ' of those principles I am in no sense j ashamed. If the country is not with us to-day in our resistance to this monstrous jiroposition, this wild speculation, this un- holy gamble, it will not be long before the 1 people throughout Canada will give no un- : certain sound as to their condemnation of ! the vilest and worst scheme that was ever submitted to an independent Parliament.