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THE 
 
 ITISH E]V[PIp liEftGUE. 
 
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 '-■-:; ^>s 
 
 DEPUTATION 
 
 TO IHE 
 
 V 
 
 ST MRD OF THE ADMIRALTY, 
 
 OJV\JV££>jVES£>AV, JULY 27///, 1898. 
 
 [N REFERENCBl TO THE QUESTION OF THE DESIRABILITY 
 
 OF COLONIAL SEAMEN BEING ENROLLED IN THE 
 
 ROYAL NAVAL RESERVE. 
 
 Offices : 
 112 CANNON STREET, LONDON. 
 
 1898. 
 
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 THE 
 
 BRITISH EMPIRE LEAGUE. 
 
 1 ) E I' I ^ 1^ A 1^ I () X 
 
 TO THK 
 
 FIRST LORD OF THE ADMLRALTY, 
 
 OX IVEDI\'ESVAY, JULY 21th, 1S9.S. 
 
 In RI'Fekf-nce to the Question ok the 
 Desirakhttv of Coeonial Sea>h:n i;ein(; 
 
 KNRoELEI) in IHE ROYAE Na\ Al, RESERVE. 
 
 Of KICKS : 
 112 CANNON STREET, EON DON, 
 
 18S)S. 
 
 |t^«h«<M«*MaiB«k.^ -— T 
 
l.dSipi is : 
 
 rUINIKli i:\ .-I'dl'I'ISWdliMl- \M' (II. 
 
 ."i| i.K.M Kt iiiKi II >'i'ifi;Kr, !•:.' . 
 
TtlE 
 
 BRITISH EMPIRE liE/lGUE. 
 
 D 1-. !> f l- A T I O N 
 
 ro 1 1 IK 
 
 FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY 
 
 ON IVEDNESDAV, JULY 27///, ,8y8. 
 
 A hirn-e and inHiienh"al (loputatioii from tlic Hi-itis]i 
 Knipii-e L(<iin:u(. was i-ircivcd on AV('<lm>s(lav, Julv 27, 
 IS98. In- tho Hiu-l.t Hon. (J. J. (Josdicn, M.v\ First Lonl 
 of the Admii-alty, in i-efei'oncv to tlir (luestion of tlio 
 (h^siraliilitv of (\)Ionial scaiiicn ])eiii<r cni-olJed iji fiu' 
 Koyal Xaval JU'siM-vf. Ac'coinpaii yiiio- Mr. (losclH'n wi-i'e 
 Koar-A(lmii-al Sir F. liedfor.!, Caj.tain Hawkus/H.N., Mi-. 
 Graham (licen. and .M>. Bramhle, U.X. 
 
 TJie deputation was introdm-t'd hy Sir Hoboi't HcrlnM't, 
 G.C.B., andtliost" j)iTS('nt iiadudcd Sir .Janies Hlytli, Hart.^ 
 Edward Bond, M.P., S. H. Houlton, Sir Joini 'Hramstoii,' 
 K.C.M.G., C.H., Lord ]]rassoy, K.C.B., I),-. (N.rkl.urn 
 (Aovnt-(;(.r,M-al for S(»utli Ansti-alia), W. Hei-heit Daw, 
 Hon. Sir (^liailes Fivmaiitlc, K.CMi., F. F. G. Hattdi^ 
 ^\.l\, W. Heckot Hill, Dr. W. Culver James. G. h. 
 Johnston, Henrv Kimher, M.P., I.ieut.-nen. J. Wind)nrn 
 Laurie, M.J»., (^mon Knox Little, the Kioht Hon. Lord 
 Loch, G.C.H., G.C.M.G., Dr. (L \^. Longstaff, Herman W. 
 Maivus, Hon. William Ahiloek (Postmaster-Geuei'al of 
 (Vinachi), Henry Noi-man, Hon. Sii' David Tennaid, 
 K.C.iM.G. (Agent-General for C^ipe Colony), and c' 
 Froenmn ALurray (Secretary). 
 
4 
 
 Sii- RuHERT IlEunEUT said : [ii lli(* nl)s('ii<:'(' of tlio Duke 
 of DevoTisliire, llie President of tlie Bi'itisli Kiii])ii'e 
 LeatJ'ue, who feels a o'veat interest in tlie question of the 
 eni'ohneiit of (.'olonial seamen in the Roval Naval 
 Keserve, Ave liad hoped that Sir €lohn Lnhhoek would 
 liave been ])resent to introdnee this de])utation, hut for 
 some cause or other lie is unable to l»e ^vith us. and I may 
 add that the exigences of the expiring season have ])r«'- 
 vcnted a great many of our most conspicuous vice-j)i'esi- 
 (h'utsand meiubers of the Council of tlie League from being 
 here to-day. 1 will not trouble you bv readino* their 
 lettei's, but I may say that we have letters ex])ressiiig 
 regret at their inability to be ])resent from the Duke of 
 Westmii'ster, the Eai'l of Crewe, the Earl of Hopetoun, 
 the Earl of Jersev, the Karl of Kintore, ^\r. Svdney 
 Buxton, M.P., Sir Frank Forhes Adam, Mr. FaithfuU 
 Hegg, M.P., Rear-Admiral Loi'd Charles Beresford, M.P., 
 Sir George Bowen, Professor S. H. Jiutcher, Lieut.-Gen. 
 Sir Andrew Clarke, Mr. F. C'. Danson, the Hon. Sydney 
 Fisher (Canadian Minister of Agriculture), Sir Malcolm 
 Fraser. Sir William Tloiildsworth. M.P.,Mr.Thos. H. Ismav, 
 Mr. Alfred L.Jones, Sir Edward Russell, Sir Cecil CHementi 
 S?nith, Jiord. Strathcona, Sir 1'honias Sutherland, M.P., 
 Sir Charles Tupjjer, Cardinal Vaughan, Lord Wenlock, 
 and Major-General Sir Fi'ancis de Winton. It has, in the 
 circumstances I have described, devolved, on me to ask you 
 to bear with me while I inti'oduce the flatter we have in 
 view. This is the tirst time the British Empire League 
 has had. occasion to come before vou ; and in fact, if the 
 expression is permissible, I may say we are favourably 
 unknown to you. We have not thouuht it our duty to 
 attem])t to teach any .l)e|)artment of the Government 
 those things which the Government better knows how to 
 deal with than we do. But. heing in constant touch with 
 the Colonies, we feel, if ditliculties arise in matters of 
 detail, that we may now and again be instrumental in 
 giving assistance of an exti'a oHicial character. Our locn^ 
 
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 s'fatuU is tliiil we were fotnuled in 18!'."), on t In- tei-inination 
 of the London braiicli of tlie Imperial Federation LeaiiMie, 
 as an institution to take the place of the lieague, almost 
 on the same lines, but not for hrinyin*^ forward tlie 
 matter of political federation at the jn-esent time. I will 
 read three lines which Avill indicate that part of our con- 
 stitution Avliich, we believe, jiistities us incoming- forward 
 on this subject. They are these: Among other objects the 
 League is founded "'to develoj) the princi})les on which all 
 })arts of the Knipire may best share in its general defence; 
 endeavouring to bring into harmony })ublic opinion at 
 Home and in the C(doiiies on the subject, and to devise 
 a more perfect co-operation of the Military and Naval 
 forces of the Empire with a S})ecial view to the dii(> 
 protection of the trade routes." 'Fhat l)eing a j)art 
 of our constitution, we think vou will not consider 
 us intrusive in asking you to hear us. During the 
 visit of the Colonial Premiers to London last year, we 
 (the British Empire League) had many opportunities of 
 communicating with them on this great question of 
 defence, and we have established very good I'elations with 
 the various Governments which are co-operating with us 
 in this matter to a considerable extent. We have obtained 
 from these Governments verv full accounts of the 
 numbers of and the nature of the work of the seafarinir 
 population on their coasts, and these particulars will be 
 sent to the Colonial OHice. Of irse, I need not remind 
 vou, Sir, that the Colonial Naval Defence Act of 18()5 was 
 passed by one of your predecessors, Mr. Childers, v, itli the 
 assistance of a distinguished member of our Council and 
 executive, Sir Andrew CMarke, and therefore there will be 
 no occasion to go to Parliament in connectidii with this 
 matter, so far as legislation is c(Uicerned. That Act was 
 j)assed in order to provide for the raising of a volunteer 
 force to foi'iu part of tlie Royal Naval Reserve established 
 under the Act of ISoO, to be available for general service 
 in the Royal Navy in enuMgency ; and as it empowers any 
 
Coloiiv to raise and maiiitjiiii a Ixxlv ol' voliiiitocrs. 
 i-nteivd on tlic teiins of Ix'ino- ])()und for fi'cneral .service 
 ill tlic Hoval Navv in cnici-o-cncv, it, of coiii-so, ])lact\s 
 powor in vour hands avIhCIi will save vou tVom the 
 lUH'cssitv of jxoitig: to I^ai-liaiiU'iit to deal v/itli tliis im- 
 |)oi-tant inattoi'. I will not detain vou fui-t liei' witli aiiv 
 
 I t * 
 
 observations of niv own. W'e have i>resent to-dav several 
 u-entletnen with <iTeat ('oh)uial experience from wlioni [ 
 tliiidv vou will bo rradv to licar a few words. We liaAO 
 here l^ord Hrassev.the nu»st active niend)er of the Leat^ue 
 in Australia at the present time. He has been fi-om the 
 tirst on oui" Council, ami this is a subject to which he has 
 jU-iven pei-somd attention. Then we have with us. also, 
 Lord Ijoch, who, as a forinor Governor of Victoi'ia and 
 C^ipe Colony, has a great knowledge of this matter, as it 
 affects Ca])e Colony as well as Australia. The Hon. W. 
 ISIulock, the Postmaster-Ceneral of Canada, is hei'e fresli 
 from a sue(X'ssful co-operation with oiu' of your colleagues 
 in regard to postal mattei-s. and 1 mav add that Mr. 
 Mulock is a vei-y influential member of the League in 
 Canada. Di". Cockbui'n, tiie Agent-deneral for South 
 Aush'alia, who has latelv arrived in this counti-y, is also 
 well worthy of your attenticm. South Anstralia, I may 
 Siiv, has distinguislied itself among the Australian Cohmies 
 by a strongei' dis])osition to co-opei'ate iu this matter of 
 the enrolment of Colonial seamen in the Koval Naval 
 Reserve than anv of the others, although it has not the 
 largest seafaring po])ulation. Not only the Premier. ^Fr. 
 Kingston, and the (lovernment as a whole, but the Press 
 of Adelaide and of ilie(\>lonv have been very enthusiastic 
 in this matter, and it is ])h!asant to be able to i-ecognise 
 tlnit special interest. Mr. l^ecket Hill, who has s{)ecial 
 business knowledge, is also with us. I will ask you first 
 to h(>ar Loi'd Ibassev. 
 
 « 
 
 Lord Bkassmv : I am quite sure. Sir, that vei'v few Avords 
 are needed from any of us to commend the pro])osal for 
 the enrolment of (\)lonial seamen in the Naval F{esei've 
 
•I 
 
 / 
 
 t«) your favoiii'iililc coiisidfi'iif ion. V()\' iii\scll' I inav smv 
 
 • • ' * « 
 
 iJiat from tlic yvnv 1^12, wlicii I made an cxtt'iisivc ci-uist.' 
 ill Canadian waters, down to llic ])iis('nt time i liavo 
 1)0, >ii anxious tliat t lie Lii'eat liodv of Jisliermen and sea- 
 fai'inn' men on tlie coast of (^inada and Lahrador slionld 
 bt^ in some \\av conneeted with t^e Hoval Xa\al Reserve, 
 Tlie Canadian tisliei-nieii are as liardy sjxM'imens of iiiaii- 
 liood as are to lie found in any part of tlie Kmjtire, and in 
 iiiimliers tliey almost rival tlie <;real l)od\ or" tisliermeii of 
 tlio I'nited Kinu'dom. to whom we look nior" and more to 
 furnish the I'i'serve for the Hoyal Xavv. The txditieal 
 conditions, if any t'orinei-ly existed in the way of enrollinn* 
 a Naval Reserve in (-aiiada. have, I helieve, altogether 
 disa])|)earod, and I am sure ,vearea!l aLfreinl tliat anything- 
 that ean lie done to bind the Motlier (\)nnti'v and the 
 Colonies more clostdy togc tlr^' should lie done. With 
 re>i'ard to Austr. lia. T feed ass!ired we there would l)e able 
 to snpjily a body of men wh.o Avoiild be. in time of war, 
 available for reserve for the l^»val Navv in those distant 
 Avaters, and I venture to think that a projiosal of that 
 nature wonld be favourably i-eeeived in that })art of the 
 Enipii'e. On t]\v general (jiiestion of the Xaval lieserve it 
 is havdlv neeessarv to insist. Fhere ean be no doubt tliar, 
 a permanent force such as the admirable permanent force 
 we have in tlie Xavy is the best force tliat can be provided 
 to man Tier ^lajesty's shi]»s. but there is immense expense 
 and considei-able difficult v in u'iving the nece.ssarv sea 
 .sei'vice to a body of men sufficient to meet all the re([uire- 
 nientsof the Xavv in time of war. 'J'liat is aconsideiation 
 
 « 
 
 which ] am sure v.ill alwa^'s be kejit in sight in dealing 
 with any jirojiosition such as that we now have the honour 
 to submit to vour notice. 
 
 Mv. (losciiKN : I would ask those wlio do me the honour 
 of addi'essing nie to give their attention, so far as thev 
 can, to the practical carrying out of siudi a jtroposiiion, 
 I'ather than the general ])rinciple. J^ord Ib-assey has 
 stated the general jirincijii'e and the wisli of the League 
 
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MlhMMhCMMWMMtfW 
 
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 vcrv clc'Mi'lv. but it is tlic iiiciliods truit would lio ndoitted 
 ])^' those who t'oiue tVom the C^tlonics and luive Kouie 
 knowUMluc of it 1 should like to licar nl)out — soiuctliiiitir 
 Avitli I'c^'MJ'd to the pi'Jictical possibilities of tlie question. 
 T tliouulit, ]>ei']iaps, Ijord lirassey would have eoutributetl 
 ill tluit direction, as I knt)w lie lias studied the matter 
 carefully. 
 
 Loi'd li(j(^'ii : On the utoimd of my formei' connection 
 with Australia and South Africa, 1 have accompanied the 
 deputation to sup])ort the views which iia\'e been laid 
 befoic \ou bv Sii' liobert Herbert. You mav in'member. 
 Sir, that forniei'lv. (birinu- the ixriod of ditlicultv at 
 Siiakini. the Victorian Government offeivd to send a 
 naval contiuL'vnt of nearlv .'i*"* men to be placed under 
 the command of the seni(H' naval o3icer in the Ked Sea, 
 aiidthat the other Australian (iovernments also offered to 
 send continfjents to be emploved at Siiakim. The men 
 Avere thoroui>'lilv etlicieiit, havinubeen ti'ained bv Imperial 
 naval officers, and althonoh tlieic scfvices were not 
 accepted at the time the u'ood feeling' was thei'c. The 
 men volunteered to accept tlii' (hity, and what they 
 volunteered to do in the |)ast no doubt they would bo 
 I'eady to do in the future if called upon. 1 think those 
 C(tlouial contingents which were offered for service in the 
 Ketl Sea represent a body of men which should be 
 I'ccognised as a valual)le force for the defence of the 
 Fhnpire at large, and, thei'efore, should be included in 
 the Naval Reserve force of the Km])ire. As regards tlie 
 (juestion that you, Sir. liav(^ put }is to the ))ractical 
 working of a scheme of a Naval Reserve in the Colonies, 
 that. I ycntui-e to say. is a matter that could be better 
 worked out by naval otlicers who are acipiainted with 
 Austi'alia and other C/olonies than bv, certainlv. mvself, 
 as an ex-Governor of two of oui' Colonies. 1 wouhl 
 suggest that, if seamen wei-e to be enlisted to form a, 
 Colonial naval I'eserve, there would b(> no ditficultv in 
 theiv being an inspection made periodically by the 
 
 
ith 
 
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 C(3minaii(Ur-in-(yln\'f in those seas in mdcr to see tlisit 
 the men were ke})t np in ilie jnojier standard of eilieiencx , 
 and that tl)e retiii-ns as to tlieir nninbers and tlieii* whei-e- 
 a])outs shonhl ))e always at tlie soi'viee of the Admiraltv 
 at liome. I do not think tlierc would be any j^Tcat 
 difficultv in woi-kinuf out (lie details of a scheme. In mv 
 ()})inion, consultation with practical oHicers or" the ^<"a\ y 
 would i-esult in our heinu' ahle to lay a s(dienie before you, 
 Sir, and before tjie (Jovernment, tluit, I ti'ust. would be 
 Hritisfactorv. 
 
 Mr. (Joschi:n: Xaval oiliciu's who have examine<l it 
 hitherto, who are alwavs examininii: it, sec^ in it «n'eat 
 difficulties, 
 
 Loi'd l^ocil: Well. I should like to sav this, Sir. I 
 suppose no naval officer's name staixls hi^'hei- than that oi 
 the late Sii* CJeorii^e Ti-yon. 1 have had nnmy conversa- 
 tions with him on tin's jiarticular subject, and he saw no 
 (lifficmlty in carryinuf out such a- scheme and ari-auLj-inij^ 
 the details of it. Of coui'S(\ it is some time since these 
 conversations took place, ajul the condition of thim^s nuiy 
 be altered to some extent, but I believe that if there wei'e 
 a committee apj)ointed to iio into tiie (juestion, such 
 committee to l)e partly made up of naval ofKcers and 
 ]mrtly of nn?mbers of this deputation, a scheme could be 
 woi'ked out whi(di, I ho))e, would be considered satis- 
 factorv. At an\ late ine jnatter wou'd then be in a 
 coiKM'ete form hefoi'c the Adniiraltv, aud it would he foi" 
 you to decide whethei* it was sutlicient oi" not . At the 
 Cape, where 1 also had the honoui' of h(Mny; (b»ver?.oi', the 
 conditions ai'e somewhat dilTerent from tlnwe which exist 
 in Australia. 
 
 Mr. (JoscHKX: Why ? 
 
 Lord Locil : IJecause there is no local naval foiceat the 
 Cape, in Australia nearly all the (^olonies have a local 
 naval foice of sonn* kind oi* amtthc)'. At the (^ipe they 
 have none. Instead of contributing in that wav towai'ds 
 the suj:)port of the Navy, the Ca})e contributes in another 
 
lO 
 
 ■\vav — iianiclv. towjirds the iiiilitai'V dcfi'iicc of Soutli 
 Afric-'Ji. Ill Ausli'alia there art' no Imperial t ret)ps. 
 
 ]\Ir. Cmisciikn: Tliaiik voii. 
 
 Lord lii;Assi:v: In eoiisi'(|Ueii(*i' of wliat fell tVoiii voii, 
 Sii". r slioiilil like to add one senlene(> to niv s} cecli. 
 
 Mr. (lOseiiKX: | shall he \ ei'V |>leaseil. ^ dn have 
 cxannned tlu' (|Uestion as much, oi' ntoi'e. than aii\ hodv. 
 
 Fiord Hu'AssliV : 1 do nttt see how an\ t hinu' pi'ael ieal can 
 be done withoni some ex jiendit me oi" InijK'rial moiiev. 
 
 Ml'. (loSciiKX: And Colonial nioney too. I ho|»e. 
 
 iiord Hi.'Assi'.v : I n ('ond)inat ion. That expendit ure. oi" 
 coni'se. can oidy he jiislilie 1 on the as.sumption that the 
 foi'ce would sat isfy proj)ei' retpiiicment s as to ellieieney 
 and he liahh' foi' service in the lmj)eiial Xa\y when and 
 where I'tMpiircd. In support of what fell from Lord iioeh 
 I niav say w «.' have a force in \ ictoria wry much of the 
 t\pe which. 1 should imauine. would he of serxice in 
 su judenu'ut inu' the re.-^erNc of tiu' Na\_\ for numninLC 
 sliips in Australian waters. All that oiu' would desire 
 W(tuld he that that foi'ce should he luiU'c nunu'i'ous. uku'c 
 fully di'illed, ami he liahle to ser\'e not only in such ships 
 as we ha\'e in ! hose waters, the ( 'crhrnis lor instance, hut in 
 an V ships of I ler Ma iest \ "s Na\\ in t hose waters foi' which 
 men nniiht he re(piired. Of course that mi^'ht nect'ssitate 
 the expenditni'e of monev hy the Impei-ial ( loveinment. 
 
 ^Ir. (JosciIKX: A\'h\ siiould it not hi' hoi-ne h\- tho 
 (N)lonies ? 
 
 Lord Iii{ASSKv : Tlnit is a larLre subject. When and as 
 their I'esources inciease I (piite ai^i'ee that t lu'V should 
 take their full share in the hurdi'n of maintuiniuii" the 
 defences of t hi* Kni])ire, hut if I were to ])ern»it nivself 
 to be lony, which I could not on this occasion, 1 think I 
 could show that at the present time t he tinancial resources 
 of Australia are not such as would justify the (ioverii- 
 Tueiits of the several Colonies in accei>t inir that larger 
 res{)onsibility bu' expenditure for pur[)oses of defence, 
 which 1 hope in comin<i' vears thev will u'ladlv accept. 
 
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 [I'ces 
 Icrii- 
 
 lie'e. 
 
 I I 
 
 Lord li'Mii: I wisli to say one woi'd also on tliat 
 • jiKstioii. All tli(' Colonics n\'v inakin!4' a lars^'c t'Xpi'iuli- 
 tiii't' a1 llic pit'sciil tinu' on (IcIV'ncc works at tluMr 
 liarl)OUi's. and in niaintainiiiu' local loiccs. towaids wliich 
 tlic Iinpci'ial ( iovcninicnt. cont I'ibntcs notliin^'. 
 
 M\\ (ioxlir.N : Noi- do tlicNconl I'ilmtc to t he C7.<H»0,( )()() 
 I usk('(l foi- the ot Ik'I' (lav. 
 
 JiOi'd litM'ii: 1 will onlv sa\ tai'thci' that \ thiid>: anv 
 
 • * * 
 
 \vell-('(;ncci\(Ml schi'inc ndu'ht t'aii'ly (U'sciac the coii- 
 sido'ation ol' the Austi'alian ( ioxcrniiicnts, who, 1 am 
 inclined to hclicNC, wonhl he willin<j;* to i-ontrihnte a pai't 
 of the ex jiendit ui'c which su(di a |>ro[iosal as wc ha\i' in 
 view inu>t in\()l\('. 
 
 The lion. \V. Mi i.ock ( I'ost niaster-(ienei'al oT Canada) : 
 Ml'. (Jos(dien, 1 Ixdiexethat the ordef iVom thcidiair has 
 Li'one loi't h that the remarks of the sjieakei's shall he 
 limitcil to su(di as indicate in most coinjdete detail a 
 S(,'heme foi' the successful cai'i'vinu' out this idea of 
 eni'olli'in* Colonial seanuMi in the Ixoyal .\a\al iJeservi'. 
 Not heinu,' an expert I am not aide. I am alVaid. to comply 
 ^vith that oi'd."'. .\ll I can say. thci-efore. is that i am 
 here with plea.sui'e. at the recpu'st of the League, feelinu^ 
 sure of its ])ati-iotic and useful iiiin:' and 1 may add that, 
 so fai' as Canada is conci'i'iu'd. the |iuhiic sentiment there 
 will full\ sustain the object, of the Leauiie. l\'i"haj>s it 
 will he a |»ractieiil ohsei'vatitm if J say that, assumiiiu" tlu^ 
 St i'4'nn't h (d' t he Xa\al lu'sei'\ c of t he Mmpii'c is of I m|terial 
 impoi'tanee, (^inada has a lafue numhee of men s|)eci-illy 
 (pnililied to do siM'\ ice in that way. We lia\"e en!4'a'4'ed in 
 our tishei'ies -(Uii* deej) sea lishei'ies and our inlaml 
 tisheries j)i'ohahly 7'), <>!)<> nu'n, fuost excidhuit mate ' 
 from whl(di to draw your Na\al Heserve. and alt hoi, i 
 am not here oiru'ially. hut as a pi-i\ ate cit i/en. I tliiid< I 
 ma\ savthat I \oice t he imhlie sent iment id' Canada when 
 1 say that Canada is prejtared to olTt'r Ctuiudia like 
 — these men, her treasures, upon the altar of her 
 count j'v. 
 
I 2 
 
 Mr. GosCHi:X: I bog pardon. T do not quite catch tlie 
 last })art of your rt^marks. 
 
 The Hon. W. Mulock : 1 do not think the sentence will 
 stand repetition, if I Avere abh^ to I'epeat it. You 
 probably know it is an allusion to a feature of Roman 
 history. I may say, however, that what I said was to the 
 effect that in C/anada there is splendid material available 
 for the defence of the Kmpire. 1 see present with us my 
 old friend. General Laurie, who has served the Em])ire 
 here as well as in Canada. For some time he had the 
 honour of representing one of the largest maritime con- 
 stituencies in Canada, and it goes without saying that a 
 larjxe nundjer of his constituents were fishermen. Well, 
 he made a deep study of the conditions of their life, and 
 I know no one better (qualified to speak as to what the 
 fishermen of Canada could do in the way of defending 
 the interests of the Empire than General Laurie. With 
 regard to the (piestioii put by the chair as to whether the 
 Colonies should not bear the whole expense of maintain- 
 ing the Xaval Reserve, I should iu)t care to make an 
 observation on that point, lest in doing so I might 
 compromise others for svhom I am not authorised to speak. 
 All I would say is that Canada will, I feel sure, cheerfully 
 co-operate in any movement that hts for its object the 
 safety and the stability of the British Empire. 
 
 Dr. CocKiJUiiX (Agent-General for Sout'i Australia; . A 
 request has been made for details of the scheme to carry 
 out the wishes of the deputation. May T take the liberty 
 of referi'ing you, Sii*, to the proposal which was made by 
 the Premier of S.)uth Australii, Mr. Kingston, at the 
 conference of Preuiiers h3ld in L >ndon last vear, and 
 which propi)s:iI in(V)rj)orated a report by Xavjil Commodore 
 Creswell of So.ith Australia, in which tletails of the ])ro- 
 posed sdienie are set forth at some leiiii'th. su|)plemeated 
 in a menu)rindum sent also by Naval Coniinodoi'o 
 Creswell, at the recpiest of the Rritish Empire League, 
 and which I believe they have received. 1 shall be hapj)y 
 
'3 
 
 ell tlie 
 
 ce will 
 You 
 Roman 
 ; to the 
 -ailable 
 
 us niv 
 
 iMiipire 
 
 lad the 
 
 lie con- 
 
 tliat a 
 
 Well, 
 fe, and 
 hat tlie 
 Fending" 
 With 
 her the 
 intain- 
 ake an 
 
 might 
 
 speak, 
 erfiilly 
 ?ct the 
 
 la; A 
 
 o carry 
 liberty 
 ade by 
 
 at the 
 11', }ind 
 
 Modore 
 lie pro- 
 iiu'tited 
 modore 
 
 jeagiie, 
 hai>j)y 
 
 to supply you with eo[)ii's of tlie;e dot'unuMits. I iii'iy 
 sav, l)i'oadlv siJeakinu*, as re^'ards details, that I 
 thoiv)U<j'hl V endorse v/h;it lias been said bv L )rd lirassev^ 
 and Lord Loeh, as far as Australia is concerned, in regard 
 to the extension of the pri'scnt ariMngiMnent. The train- 
 iiio' of seamen is n(» new all'air in South Australia. We 
 have already well-ti'ained seamen — seamen trained for 
 service on boai'd men-of-\v;ii- and whose efficiencv has been 
 the fre<pient subject of comment by visiting admirals 
 who liavc inspected the stations. AVith regai'd to the 
 (piestion of the (\)l(mies bearing the whole of the 
 expense, 1 should like to point out that South Australia 
 does not reij^ard this solclv as a matter of Colonial con- 
 cerii. We think, Sir~-of course we are n<it possessed 
 of full details with regard to possibilities — but we think it 
 quite possible that oci'uri-ences might arise which would 
 have for the scene (tf their operations the Pacitic or the 
 Eastern seas, and that to have, at the Tm])erial command, 
 a bodv of well-ti'ained nu'u on the spot constantly ready 
 to reinforce the Navy would be a matter in which 
 
 A.' 
 
 [)artlcu1ar Colonies themselves were only concerned as a 
 parr of the Em))ii'e, but it would be a matter in which 
 the ^Fothei' Country, the Colonies, the whole Kmpire, 
 would be deeply concerned, and therefore 1 cannot help 
 thinking. Sir, that to expect the Colonies to bear the 
 whole or the major projtortion of this (.'ost is to ignore 
 some of th(?se considerations. I would remind you that 
 the proposal of the Premiei' of South Australia 
 was that some such method as is now suggested of pro- 
 vicb'ng a constant recruiting ground for the sup|»Iy of 
 well-tiained seamen should take the place of the present 
 arraiigement with regard to the Australian S(pia(lron. 
 
 ^Fr. (roscUKX: That the money given for ships should 
 be ap|)lii'd to training men. South Australia proposes to 
 withdraw from the geiu'ral arrangement aid to devote 
 tlie money to (he training of a Keserye force. 1 believe 
 that was the proposal i' 
 
 I 
 
>4 
 
 l)i-. ("(hkim !;n: Vos. Mmicv is all vcit wrll, Imt iiilmi 
 ill'*' IjciiT. ail!' \Vi' (-((nld sii[)jtlv a iiody «>|' liicii such as 
 iiioin'V coiiltl not Imiw 
 
 'I'lic ll;)ii. W. Ahi.KtK: Ma\ I make one liirt licr rcinaik. 
 Vt'.sU'i'<lav, a uTiitlt'iiian, a j>|>a iciit I v in tlic (•()nli(l('iu't' ot" 
 one wlio ant icipat rd o!) jcct ions, staled tliat t Ih' object ion 
 to iccniit ihl;' lor the Navy <»i' ci-cat iiiL:' a Na\al KcscrNC in 
 {'aiiada. was the i'cai' that oiir men. \n hen they attained 
 some (jualiticat ions, niinht leave our llaL;' and follow 
 another. 1 think the idea, if it has any place in the mind 
 of those in authority. nia\ he ahsoluteK' discri'dit ed. 
 'J'liere is a siroiiL;' sentiment in Canada amoim' the vouni^ 
 jx'oph' from whom the i-ecruils would he obtained that 
 would I mike such a t hiiiji' (piit e inijiossihle. PiiMic opinion 
 is sostroiiLi' that you need not lia\c any apprehension on 
 tliat score. 
 
 Mr. \V. 15i:t KKT IIlLl, (Allan IJrotliers and Co.): I 
 ■want to say a fi'W womls. .Mr. (ioschen. from my juaclical 
 business jxtint of view, Jia\in'^' been interested for the 
 hist I h irty-one years in a line of st eainers t hat has carrie(l 
 the mails between our oldest colony and tlii.s cotuitry. 
 Von will be aware. Sir, that your predec(>ssors took 
 advantage of the eminently fast steamers runniiiL;' 
 between lii\erjtool and New Vork to subsidise them in 
 order that tlie\ niiu'ht be available as an au.xiliarv fl.* i of 
 armed cruisers in case of war, and I think the pi'esent 
 strn'>!''le has shown that tliev e.xercised a wise foi-esindit. 
 ^J'he .Vmerican (bixernment followed our e.xamjde. and tlie 
 fast steamers they lia\e riiiininn' between New Voik and 
 Southampton were fitted out in the same way, and have 
 been of u'reat use in the jireseiit contest. Now. Sir. it is 
 jM'obable that some day. as our Coh)iiies rise in wealth — 
 and that may be at a \eiT early day as reu'ai'ds our oldest 
 C'.dony, Canada - t here will be a line of eminently 
 fast steamers con\eyin<4' jiasseii^'ers and mails from all 
 pai'ts of the world to this count ry ; and you will see what 
 an admirable thiiiu' it would be if. when those vessels 
 
Imt iiiLMi 
 such as 
 
 rcinnik. 
 
 It'UCC of 
 
 >l)jt'('ti()ii 
 'serve in 
 ;il t;iiiu'() 
 1 fol low- 
 he mind 
 /I't'dited. 
 le voiinuf 
 led tliat 
 * ojtiiiion 
 isioii on 
 
 Co.): i: 
 
 naet ieal 
 loi" tlio 
 c:trfie(l 
 
 OUlll I'V. 
 !'S took 
 
 inininu,' 
 lioni in 
 
 il- ( of 
 |H"esent 
 resiu^ht. 
 and 1 lie 
 oik and 
 id have 
 ir. it is 
 ealth — 
 r oldest 
 liiient 1 V 
 I'oni all 
 ee what 
 
 vessels 
 
 ( 
 
 are reijnii'i'd foi- })nrpo>"s of war. you \vere ahle to 
 in-ni and outfit theiii on loth sides of tiie world at oiiee, 
 Jjookinu" ai the thiim' from a shipowners jtoint of \ iew, 1 
 s'loidd sav that half of those ships mr.ler voui' control 
 would he. in the cast' of the ('anadian ser\ ice. on the 
 othei'sideof the A t hint ic. a iid in the case of .Vustralia. 
 at the other side of the world ; and what an ad\antaue it 
 will he to lia\'e Xa\al Kesei'\ t> men. 1 ra ined on t he sj)ot . to 
 hrinu' those ships into immediate ii>e. 'riie I'nitiMl States 
 had not tli.it advantage; andthere can he no douht that if 
 thy I'nited States had had a formidahle ad\'ersar\' to 
 eonteiid with those steamers would ha\e remained at 
 Sout !iani|>ton. and would liaxc been of no service to the 
 I'nited States; intact, thev miu'lit ha\t' heeii instead of 
 ser\ ice lo their enemies. I think that is an impoi'tant 
 point. NVe are uriiiiiLi* that there should lu' sonu' scheme 
 devised foi- formiiiLT a Na\al KeserNC in the Colonies, and 
 of all t^\U' Colonies I think Canada jiossesses the most 
 valuahh; material 'riiey ha\('to face wet. fon's. and all 
 kinds of weather, and t hey art' a hoiii the sturdiest of sea- 
 faring'" men in the woi'ld. As i-ee-ards the practical 
 carryinu,' out of this proposal, it seems to me that as the 
 Coloiues ai'ri\e at manhood theyslnudd no louLi'ei' takt' 
 shelter under their mothers aproti, hut he ahle to do 
 thiiius for themselves. 
 
 Mr. (ioxMiKN : 'riuit I aeeept. 
 
 }>\v Hii.L: The (\)loines have often told us of their 
 valuable ndlitia. and I think it would only need a little 
 pressure on their part to oru'anise a na\al militia a)id use 
 valuable material to be found in the CohMiies for purposes 
 of common defi'uee. Tlie retaining- fee is ,£(> a head in this 
 eiHuitry, ami the sai.ie will have to be jiaid in the 
 Cohunes. Sueli a fee Avould bring forward an amjile 
 nutnber of volunteers, and it would be a valuable thing 
 foi- these lishernu'n in tlie winter. I do not tliink it 
 ^vuuld be a lieavv tax on t he Colonies, as the monev would 
 b(> spent there; and. as j'CLi'afds tfie Motlier Country, she 
 
 l^g^g^gH 
 
 imi'^-- «k V .t« ■■,^^-^^i^.^ ^. 
 
K) 
 
 could lend tlic imjilcmonts of «'(lii('iit ion. Wu could send 
 over oil)- u-inis and sliips and cajjtains, and uive tliese men 
 an excellent traininii;' in the ports of St. .lolin. Halifax, 
 and (^ne])ec, where the mateiial is to he found in un- 
 rivalled quality and (juantity. 
 
 ^Ir. (Josciii;n : Also in Austi'alia and othei' ])arts. 
 
 ]\lr. JiiLL : I tliink so. I tliink, perhaps, Canachi niiglit 
 set an exjimple to the othei' (Olonies. 
 
 ^f)', G(»s<HKX: I liave just been sent foi- to ^o to the 
 House <»f Conmions, so J shall he ^lad to ij^et away as 
 soon as possible. 
 
 Sir lloiJiiiri' lli:i;i^i:i;r : 1 think. Sir, under those cireiini- 
 stances. there is no more that we need ti'ouhleyou to 
 hear. 
 
 Mr. (ioS( iiKX, in re])ly, said : 1 have listeiu'(l with vvvy 
 H'reat interest to what you have j)ut hcfoi-e riie. 1 may 
 say at once that 1 sympathise with voui- ohiect -namely, 
 to encoui'aue the Colonies to assist In the defence of the 
 lMn])ii-e, and to increase the nundx'i- of its did'enders. 
 Now comes the (pu'stion of how to cany it out. I should 
 he very ijlad if we could have a consi(U'ral)le addition to 
 oui' Uesei'ves su])plied hy the Colonics, upon one condition 
 - that those Reserves should he as u'ood as the Reserves 
 that we have. IJut 1 think that, as at present advised 
 cei'tainly. 1 would not he inclined to acce])t from the 
 Cohmies a less well-ti'ained and a less satisfactoiv nuuihci- 
 of Jieserve men to the exclusion of an equal number of 
 better-trained men in the United Kins>dom. A\ hat you 
 desire is to liave in the Colonies men ecjually ti'ained with 
 thosi' we have at home. I should say one w(U'd first as to 
 tile ex])enditnre. 1 think 1 am not now addi'^^ssinjn;' a 
 l)ody of Colonial oentlemen so much as the Bi'itish 
 iMunire Jieai»ue, and 1 think it is their dutv, while th(>y 
 impress upon us to do what we can for the Colonies, also 
 to imj)i'ess upon the (\)lonies that they must bear tlieir 
 share at least some share of the defences of the 
 {'hupire. We cannot yo on constantly increjisino' the 
 
lid send 
 ese moil 
 Halifax, 
 ill mi- 
 ls. 
 a iniii'lit 
 
 ) to tlio 
 Lwav as 
 
 circiim- 
 
 V you to 
 
 itli very 
 
 I may 
 
 mniudy, 
 
 3 of the 
 
 fenders. 
 
 I sliould 
 
 tion to 
 
 nditiisii 
 
 eserves 
 
 advised 
 
 om tlie 
 
 niindxM' 
 
 m])i'r of 
 
 hat v<»u 
 
 ed wit h 
 
 st as to 
 
 'ssing- a 
 
 Hiitish 
 
 h' th(^V 
 les. also 
 \v tlieir 
 of the 
 1 1 u" 1 1 1 
 
 enoi'inous naval rxjieiidit iiic and at tlic same time take 
 special measui'es I'or the ('(»lnni('s. unless we see some 
 disposition to meet us half way and to hear at h-ast a 
 •share of the expenditure tliat we ineui'. 'J'liat is a 
 matter of principle with which. T tliink. you will agree. 
 Xow. as to the ([uestioii of traininjj;'. J fancy that neai'ly 
 all the ditliculties which have arisen have heen with 
 reference to the difVicultv of trainintr seafarinu* men in 
 the Colonies. I nless that ti-ainmii' is satisfactory (»f 
 course we could not accept the men. Now, what is tin? 
 trainiiii!' wehavein tliiscoiintrv ? Weti-aiiithemat hatteries 
 or on hoai'd men-of-wai' for twentv-eiuht davs. We are 
 anxious that we should not have men who are unaccustomed 
 to men-of-war, ami in enrol lin«i' tishermeii in the Colonies 
 for the Reserve we thought it essential that thev slnuild 
 have some exj)ericnce of men-of-wai'. The ])resent con- 
 ditio?is are : the trainin'_>- for twenty-eig'ht days at a hattery 
 and afteiwards emhai-kinu' in men-of-war for a jx-riod of 
 six months. That is an I'ssential part now of the trainiiii^ 
 of the Reserve. I saw the othei' day a representative 
 fi'om Newfoundland, and we discussed this mattei- 
 tonether in some detail ; and I told him tlie first thino" 
 we had yot to ascertain was whether the fishermen of 
 Newfoundland wcuild accept the terms whi(di the Ihiiilish 
 Xaval Reserve men now accept — and it is the only 
 condition that we accept that hesides the ti'ainino; for 
 t wenty-eii>ht days they will o-o to sea for six months in a 
 man-of-war. I told him that if it weie found that thev were 
 willinii' to accept this condition then we should proceed 
 in the matter. With leference to Australia, Canada, and 
 the other Colonies, the first tiling is to ascertain whether 
 the men will he prepared to learn the discipline of a 
 man-of-war, as we consider that a necessary matter to 
 make them etiicient as a Reserve. J do not wish you to 
 make definitely any offer, hut the deputation will see that 
 these two things will have to he arranged; in tlie first 
 place t he t ra"niiiL: at tin) hatteries fort wen tv -eight da vs. and 
 
i;s 
 
 t lien o()iiio' tn scii toi" six inoiit lis. In I liis cfniiiti'v wc lijive 
 baltcn'cs mII loiiiid llic coiist. Jiiid 1 lici'c iiuiv !»•' some 
 ditlicultv ill tilt' i'st;ii)lisliiiH'iit oF liattciics t'er the 
 iieci'ssai'v 1 lainiriLi' in tlic Colonics. I liaA'o spoken of 
 ex])en(liture. and I may say tliat it' the Cohmies nill Ix'ar 
 the expense ol' tiaininu" the men we would heai' the 
 expense of" the relainiiiijf Fees. At any iv)te. i am 
 jU'epared to entt'i'tain the (piestinn iF 1 see that tliei'e is 
 some e\iden('e Foi't heominu' that oni' Colonial Fellow- 
 siihjects, the seaFai'ino- ])opulation, will comply with the 
 same conditions wliitdi we (,'onsider necessai'v For efHcieiiev 
 here. I will not nndenate the dittieulty iA' twenty-eight 
 days' t ra Ininu'. noi- noing to sea, l)iit we should I'ndeav^oni' to 
 tind room and ships at various stutit)ns, and afterwards, 
 possibly, assist them in emharkiug for n sp(dl of real sea 
 sei'viee. ^I'lie diHiculty of hattei-ies is, no (h)ul)t, very 
 gieat. One gentleman sjioke of (jur sending shi|)s, officers, 
 and men as iF we had got an uidimited number, but, as 
 lioi'd IJrassey and otliei-s know, our snj>]»ly is m>t so 
 great as to send them to all parts of the world For tlie 
 training of J^eservt* men. And what w(> did foi' one 
 Colonv we should have to do for all. There is. therefoi'e, 
 ve)-v considerable ditlicultv as I'ctrards trainiii"". Tlie 
 First thinii'to be done is to see as to how far this diHicultv 
 would be met. I will send out our rules applied to the 
 Reserves to the Conunamlei's-in-Chief on the difl'erent 
 stations, (lleijr, hear.) They will then confer with the 
 various Miuisteis and (iovernors, aud we will see what 
 the Colonial ( lovi'inmcnts say to it, and. wdiat is more 
 important, wliut the seafaring poj)ulation say to it — 
 whether they will a'jce])t the same conditions as those 
 whi(di arc now readilv accented in this cotintrv. The 
 great tduinge to the rcMpiirements of six uionths at 
 sea is a conditiou which has })eeu accepted with 
 the greatest a])probation by the House of Commons 
 and by all who aie interested in the Naval Reserve. 
 we could not make easier conditions For men in tlu' 
 
'9 
 
 f liavo 
 
 some 
 • )• llio 
 ken (»f 
 II bi'iir 
 ai' tlie 
 
 1 am 
 lici't' is 
 t'cliow- 
 tli the 
 ieieiK'V 
 ^'-elu'lit 
 vom- to 
 ■wards, 
 eal sea 
 , very 
 -ftHieers, 
 1)11 1, as 
 not so 
 'or the 
 or one 
 re fore, 
 The 
 liculty 
 
 to the 
 iTereiit 
 ith the 
 
 what 
 s more 
 o it — 
 ! tliose 
 Tiie 
 
 IS at 
 with 
 iiimoiis 
 eserve. 
 in the 
 
 Coldnies when wc can rcadilv iu<~'\ l\esi'r\-e men in 
 this cKuntiv lo aect'iil 1 lie coinlit ions. I (*ann(»t pledge 
 nivsclt' t(t anythinL;' (h'finile witli i-euard to the matter, 
 except that t he ( 'onnna inh-rs-iii-C "h icf will put t heinst'lNcs 
 in eoiiimnnicat ion with the \ai'ions ! loxci- nmeiits to si-e 
 liow tar thev arc \NillinL:' l'» Li'o. W'c arc not in such need 
 of Keserv'c men. and the •'^iijtply is not so limited hut what 
 we coidd hir!4"cl_v increase it : and I couhl not promise tliat 
 we cold (1 siipj)ly t (» t lie \aiioiis ( 'olonies t he apj»aratns tor 
 t raininu" at the expense of this country that is. to h'lild 
 batteries and to supply the iiistriictoi-s and tlu' lienses 
 wliere the inst rnctors niiLiht live, which are all matters 
 of x^'vx coiisideralile cxjteiise. (hir oi'u'an isa t ion is now 
 such that we should lie ahh- to train a \ cry much lai'U'cr 
 niimhci- of Hest'rxc men tlian we ha\(' at tlie jn-eseiil 
 moment. AVe Innc liT.'KH) men, hut there are numerous 
 applications from men. and we shall increase the nundter 
 of our Keserves at home, 'riierefore it is not the Daucity 
 of oiir nninl)ers t hat would induce ns to u'o to anvureai 
 exj)ense. l^ut I ackintw h'dij'c the \aliie of the Colonies 
 if thev woidd i*ont rihiite men etiicieut Iv ti'ained as an 
 lm])erial consideration from many points of \'iew : and, 
 thei'ef(»rt\ so far as the oru'aiiisat ion is conceiaied. we will 
 do our Ix'st to see whi'ther t he deveh3])nient (d the UeserNc 
 undei' t he condit ions I lia\e nicntioned is possible. I do 
 not disii'iiise fr<»m you that there are considera'ou- diiH- 
 culties in the matter wdiich lia\i' liitherto arresti'd any 
 proo'ress at all. l)ut I think 1 have made a fair otTer and 
 an oil'ei' which will test the real sincerity, not of the 
 (Jovin'nmeiits of the Colonies, becanse i btdieve tlu'in to be 
 sincere, but the reality of the jiossibility that we should 
 be able to increase to anv extent our Keservt". (Cheers.) 
 
 (ieneral Lai i;ii:, M.P. : Perhajis, 8ir, you will allow nu' 
 to sav one word in reference to the ilitliculties that liave 
 been placed before you, as l)einu' almost jiroliibitory, of 
 oru'anisinu' a Naval Reserve force in the Colonies. One 
 dilliculty which has been stated outside is that you will 
 
20 
 
 liavc to ii'ivQ tlie moii there a biryelv increased pav 
 coiiipared witli what v<>ii give here. 
 
 Mr. CxOSCiiEN : We shouhl not ""ive aiiv more. 
 
 Genei'al Laurie : There is no necessity for it, I can 
 speak with a lary-e knowleclu'e of the fisliermen of the 
 laritinie pi'ovinces. J liave lived witli tliem in their 
 lioiises, Jiiid 1 know tiieir conditions of life and their 
 thoiiu'lits jind fcndinii's on this matter. Jietween Octo])er 
 and Afai'di in each year thev come home, and are free 
 (hirinii" all that tune, and they vvonld willingly take up 
 a j(il) of this sort. Aiul then, to go a stej) fnrtiier, I would 
 say tlieri' is no ditliculty in getting them to submit to 
 discipline. We thought there wonid be at one time, but 
 a number of tliem wei'e }daced on board (loyernment 
 cruisers, and the commanders said they had never had 
 fiiu'i' or more subordinate men. or men moi'e thoroughly 
 suitable for a cruise on a man-of-war. 
 
 Ml'. (lOSi'iiKN : Were those Canadians ? 
 
 Cieneral Lavkiij: Yes, I am speaking of Canadians. 
 The Newfoundlanders have been ])rouuht into friction 
 v^-ith the commanders of nuni-of-war, as they think thev 
 are going to drive them oif theii' fishijig grounds and let 
 tlie Frenchmen go on them. The Canadian tisherman 
 is largely a deep sea tisherman. who goes away for three 
 months at a time. The Newfoundland tisherman, on the 
 other hand, is a hoat tishei'nian lart^cdy. E wish you to 
 distinctly understand the class of men from whom you 
 would draw yiuu resei'ves. ]\!any of the ditliculties which 
 have been conjured up in connection with this (paestion 
 would, I believe, be found to bi- innminarv. 
 
 Sir Roi^.Kiii; lfKi;in:iiL' : On behalf of the deputation, 
 Ml'. (Joschen, I now beg to thank you for the attention 
 with which you have listened to us, and for the impor- 
 tant and valuable remarks with which you have favoured 
 us in voui' reply. 
 
 * J. «.' 
 
 The tleputation then withdrew. 
 
 
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