^ w ^ o. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I M 2.2 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 ^ 6" — ► V] <^ /a % e .^ % /,. '> ■> 7 /A Photographic Sdences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 873-4503 ^k^ ^ MINISTER OF FINANCE SIR RICHARD CARTWRIGHT, M.P. ' •• " ■) ' ' MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE \ AND HON. WILLIAM PATERSON, M.P. MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Hoase of Commons. Ottawa, April 5th, r2th and -th. iSqS. ^H A Th« ■ ^> H Into < B Mean H to H< jH Be Bi accor K yoti I H cludii S Table ■jB to w: fB tlon < 8 A H cumsi fl sJora H tory .to >th ■B in I 9 I an ^m wliici W ditloi m the p ^B my fl Ai^ni U J^f^f ■ vaotM H Incre, M Fol ^B 'esc ^B i lu K tiw f B the 8 B bav« ■■■ . n B some B yi^iVti H ^<)i^ t .- 1 ^'^' j^^e£^^^^&^ onu 4 fl{0nim0ns g^kt^^* THIRD SESSION— EIGHT PARLIAMENT. ST=>EEOI3C OF Hon. W. S. Fielding, M. P. ON rill BUDGET. OTTAWA, 5TH APRIL, 1898. SUPPI'Y— THE BUDGET. Th« MINISTER OF FINANCE (Mr, Field- tog) moved Hbat the House weolve ltB©lf Into Committte© to coMridier of *he Ways asid Means llor mlalng the Supply to be graiDted to Her Majecrty. Hie said: I riso to move, Mr. Speaker, ia accordacwie with notice, the nnotion. wbidh yotk havei put from the Cbalr, and bekwe pon- cludimg my rwnarke I trhall place upooD th^ Table of the Honse « series of reaoluitlons to which it i» lay dwrlre to invite the atten- tion of .tiie House. A little lees than ome year ago, uader elr- cumstainoes which perhaps marked the occa- sion as one of 0o di«»liv«r .in ithilB House my flimt Budi^ sjpeecfa^ . in rising' to-day to perform a similar dlutiy, X am sure that I have ample girouitdis on which bo eougratalate the Hcwiee on ttoe coo- dltioD of the couovtry, and ou the results of the policy of die QoTarnment which It was my prlTllege to anmounce to the House in A];^! teat. Qaioada has kero- Oil cloth 9,887 Pickles, sauces and capers of all kinds 8,192 Silk, manufactures of .... 106,666 Stone and manufacturea o( 8,917 The details ot the increase im excise are cm follows: Articles. Spirits Galls, Malt Lbs. Cigars ■ ^ No. Cigarettes No. Tot)aoco and Snuif......i...> Lbs. Quantity, 1896. 2,344.767 61,690,278 108,290,260 80,461,900 9,392,487 Quantity, 1897. 2,782,514 68,443,353 113,276,105 98,798,000 10,690,765 Duty, 1896. I 3,973,300 775,354 648,462 120,692 2,228,697 7,746,605 Duty, 1897. 4,732,506 1,020,652 678,029 15b,267 2,398,443 8,991,887 Increase. $ 769,206 261,298 29,667 1 35,565 169,746 l,246,38i The per capita consumption of the following articles usually finds a place- In the Budget, and I give it, as follows : — Spirits, Beer, Wine, Tobacco, Galls. Galls. Qalle. Lbs. 1894.... -742 3-722 089 2264 1896 .... -666 3-471 090 2163 1896.... -623 3628 -070 2120 1897 .... '723 3-469 084 2 243 It vni) be ttotlced that there is an apparont Increase In the consumption of spirits bi 1897, but that, I thlrnk, is to be accounted for by the fact that in anticipation o| the chanigM in the excise duties last ses- sion, very considerable quantities were en- tered tor duty, whlcih will probably sJSeet the (toxeumptkin for the neoct year, so that the figures which show bh increase, ra timer sbQir Hfi tnopeBae to mercantile oppeo-atlone tiian to aetual consumption. The avex'\age pofT eaplta causumptlun was as follows : — Spirits,... Gall 1-026 Be«r. .., do 2-920^ Vfiiie. ... ... do '180 Tobacco Lbs. 2173 We como now to the expenditure of the year. Mr. FOSTER. Before going to the ex- penditure of the year, oaai my hon. frtood tell me what amount of the increase is due to the Jubilee stamps of 1896-97 ? The MINISTER OF FINANCE. I have not includied that In my statement, but I shall be glad to give It la*er on. The peat otflce revenues to the public accounts show it in general terms. I shall fumleih it later on If the hon. gentleiman deelTee. The eixpenditure on consolidated nevenoe readied f 88, 849,759, being an Increase of if 1,400,617 over that of the previous year. Taking up the details ol the outlay, J find that In the following servlow tflwre Is an inci«a«ed expenditure : Interest on pubUc debt fl48,28S Charges ol managemeot „ .... 29,905 Sinking funds 4«,526 Pi'eniium, dilecount and eschaoge.. 38,888 CirU govetPnlnw»t .... -. 22,31& AdmiintotratiKiin of Jusrtice 16,491 DomdlnioQ E>olikta .. 1,086 Legisiatioa 230,084 Pealtenitlaries , 24,870 Wot MHI MBIi«tl||||MU MMi ■BMm 8B,220 154,418 62,187 68,887 23,19^ 28,118 40,943 11,496 18,060 16,188 68,574 12,010 80,298 9,887 8,193 ,. 106,666 8,917 else aire ea Increaee. 759,206 261,298 2a,667 ; 35,566 169,746 l,24b,38i: Itura of the to the ex- don, (rlond neaae is due ? 2. I have ent, hut I . The pc«t lunts show {Ml It later ed revcmtoe increaee of \ioxm year, tlay, I aiMl ttoere ift an fl48,28S 46,526 38,888 32,21& 16,491 1,085 230 084 '24,87S Arts, agrlcnltnre and atatlatlcfl.... 18,612 Immigration 7,289 Quarantine 24,914 PemtoDfl ...'. 4»801 Militia 680.874 Public Works, Oonwolldated Fund.. 168,949 Railways and canals 7,961 Mail flubeddlee end steAmehip lub- Tcntions 18,896 Oceam and river fuerTloe 1,805 Marine hoapltata l.*47 Fiehoriee 16,836 Geological Survey 14,881 SubsicUee to provinces ..»»»..».•* 2,894 Indiana ..» 27,655 MiaoeUaneous 9,892 OuBftoms ;;. ..J 48,912 Poat office 124,467 Tnade and commierce 6,141 On the other hand, there have beeai de- creases on the IoHo7^J»K : — SupeiraoHiuatioin '..» •...' • 9 8,489 Mounted Police .... 0,852 Ligliibouee and coast service 20,814 Scientific Institutione 1,705 Govemmeot of the Nortfli-weBt Ter- rltomles 10,167 Excise 0,448 WeigHitB aind measures and g&» .... 6,150 Bailways and Oaanals, ooltectkxn.... 100,585 Domiiinion lamds '. 8,492 Public Works, oolJbctloai 11,892 The miain inoreases will be found to be in the interest an public debt, legislation, militia, public works, and post office, and the causes operating m these oases were ezplatoed in my remarks of the 2^d of April last .vear, and are sufficiently well Imowvi. 1 need not refer to them further than to say that they are the direct result of the apparent economy accomplisfhed by my predecessor in 1895-96, an economy, which I aan Justified lin saying was omly appaoneoit, beoa'use I itMnik hom. getattetncm t^ieniselves will admit that It was not possi- ble to oooittnue the eKpendituie on the fig- QieB of thia/t yeair. Indeed, ium. geotlemetn on the otber Ride, by the remarks they have made on these subjects, have frequently ad- mitted as much. In concliudtflg my observationB upon the business of the fiscal yeax of 1896-97, end- ing the 80th of June last, let me express the ilsope tlhait my hiota. {rieoidS oppoedte will Al- low me to congratulate thesn on the ^eiy Bappy failure of some of tbc very gTOf imy predictions which itheor made rcspdctiiig that yaar. It may be retmembered that in the closing hours oS the first session of this ParMament, my hoc. fcrlend the leader of the Opposition (Sir Charles Tupper) and my hom. friend the eX'^Minister of Finance (Mr. Vostter) mads very stKntg aittocks upon the SiMim atel pcsit^l* Of tl^ Oovepnvcent, ftBd {»edlet*d tlmt ^Tery direful things would happeo in the flnrt year of Liberal adminls* tratioo. I oo oot propose to detain tbe House with lengthy quotations from their remarks, but I may sommariae th«ir pie- dletions very briefiy. My boctu irietulB stat- ed that we wer* eavtering upon a year of reckless Qxpendiiture which oould only end in finaaclal disaster. They declared that wit&in thait cudtfeot year of 1890-97, I WQuld be obliged to bo ow at least 910 ,< 000,000, and tba/t I woald have to go on the money market onider conditions that would greatly damage our public creddt. They will, I hope, be gratified to learn that dur- ing that current year we did not have to go on the general money market at all; that our total temporary borrowing, in the usual way of treasury hills, did not amount to ten million dollars or even half of ten mill- ion dollars; and that the only borrowing In which we Indulged, over and above tlie n»- newal of a loan contracted by my predeces- sor, was less than three milMon dollars, and thait when ait a subeequent and proper time we did proceed to place a loan on the Lon- don market. Instead of going with a dam- aged credit, as my hon. friends predicted we went under favourable condltlosis and met with gratifying success. Tt]||y also stated that we would not be able to oome out of the year's operations with a dedcit of less than $8,260,000. As la'te as the month of April last, my hon. friend the ex-Mlnister of Fiaance modified his caleulation, but even then he predioted that we could not come out of the y«»» with a deficit of tees than 92,000,000. He will, I am sure, be glad to iaarn that we came out of the year wdith a deficit, not of 98,250,000, not of 92,000,000, but of the modest sum of 9519,000. My hon. friend said that in the first year of Liberal admin- istration we would have an exp'jrditure of at least forty million dollars. He will be glad to learn, I hope, that the expendi- ture of that year amounted to only 988,- 349,759. My hon. friend said that he could appeal with confidence to the great arbiter, time, to decide these things. , Well, the great arbiter has given Judgment, and has given Judgmenit against my boa. friend and in favour of the Administration. I suppose It would be toti much to eotpect of my hon. friends opposite that they will take the cheetful view which we, on this side, are disposed to take of the prospects of the country under a Liberal Sdmtolstration, I suppose it is even pos- sdbte) ittvat tbedr sense tA dwty may ottUge then to Qoi^fctone to draw^ the sama alaiitainir picture of <*e future under Liberal role. We, on tfeis side, will have to comiart our- selves wttih tbe tbo^ht, when we have these alarming i^edietlons, that.time^ ttes great arbiter, will ean^riaKie to deeids i^psdMt Admiiuk^itatloo. I have glTAii Bome flgnrea rMpeottoig the coowunixtloo oD apkrlits and intoxlocttliif; .11- qooiv, but It baa occurred to me tbait, to ▼lew of the agitation on th« subject of pro- hlbiflocn, which Is likely to be continued aaid to take a laore empihatlc »hape at au early day, ttorre will be frequent references, no doubt, to the amount of duty and the reven Duee of the varloua departments of the QovoTJinient arialng from the liquor trofHc. I thdnk that, therefore, It might be cooveol- eot to Include in the Budget a statement showing exactly what are the reTeouee de- rived from that wMiroe. The statemeiut la for the year 1896-97. Quantity. Duty. Customs — Ale, beer, Ac... Galls. 327,216 $65,245.30 Excise- Malt Lbe. 68,143,363 1,026,662.13 Customs — Spirits and wine8..0'l8. 1,396,136 2,406,629.81 Excise — Spirits Galls. 2,782,614 4,782,606.19 Or, Customs.. $2,471,776.11 Excise 6i759Jl68.32 Samsning it up, we find that the revemuee re- e^ved from tbeae sourcee aie : Cnatoma, $2,471,775.11; excise, $6,759,158.82, mak- ing a total reveoue from taat source of $3,230,988.48. Bo far, Sir, I hATe dealt with the finan- cial year ending June last. Now, let na turn our atteoition to the current yeor, of wiiich ni!fi« montlM have elapeed. With thto itlapoad period as a basis of oal&vlatioo, I i^all endouTour to estimate what our pioei- tioa win probably be on the BOth June next. \fp to Slat Morcb last, according to tbe Iftkat Ntwtemeints we have o/btalned, our euie^xsmtt revenue amounts to $16,111,029.82. Making due allowance for the Increase we LavB lately b«ni experiencing in the recel^xts fnxm this sonrcei, and keeping in mind that cftsnr let July the preferential feature of outr t-zxiS obtains Its full development and con- seqi.ently there vr411 be a slight check In the Imports In May and Jnne, I think I am wiitfeiln the mark when I estimate the eos* toms cievenue at $21,000,000, as against last year's yield of $19,478,347. From ex- cdss, I do not expect to recedve more tboo $8,000,000, as compared with $9,170,878 T» celvad last year, on account ot variove dits- twikteer eauew. As^ beitwesn toe two yaara, the» la no donbt our revenue this year from tha* loOToe will be less. From mlsflellaneouB Boitrces I anticipate oer wvwiuo will be $10,- 800,000; or $89,800,000 In all, ^ ^ 9f»^ macb fnir the nrvenue^ Oa< thiiiiee» of thki year, closing the 80th June next, will end with a surplus of $550,000. My aim and eapootation in that reapeat are that we ehall have in this current year a surplus which wiil wipe out the dedoit of last year, and leave a balance, poealbliy even a larger balance then I would now cane to state, on thei right elde. I feel confident that this is a safe and oonaervotive estimate of the result of the year's operations. Some features of the year's business have been so abnormaJ, there Las developed such buey- ancy In trade, that I should not be surpriasd if the outcome of the year sihould be more favourabtei than I have indicated. The total coTUBKxIldated fund expbndiltuTe for the current year I have Just eetiniated at $88,750,000, or some $400,000 over last year's actual ex- penditure. Tbo reasons for this are to be found In the additional intefreart on the pub- lic dettt that bajs to be paid tm account of the loan of lost autumm, the necessary out- lay in connection with the opening up of tdw Tolcon dlstmict. an Inoreased outlay resulting from a vigonous policy to be pursued In the I>eiwirtmerit of Agricukuva, and also in the branch of the Department of the Interior which has special reference to Immigration. The extenadon of .|he Intercolonial Bailway to Montreal will also go to swell our gross etxpendjitum, althoui^ I am assured by my hon. friend the MlnJstwr o! Ballways that the increased outlay will be otilaet by In- crea<«d receipts that will accrae trom the working of the <)xten«riiou. Although our bor- rowings in London, last Octdb«r, as I shall show, weire less tlkan halt the amount au- thorized, and it might be supposed ther<4o(e that we fihiould have occasion again to resort to temporwo-.v loans at am early day, I am glad to b«> able to say that, owtog to the bnoy»Ttey ot trade amiA ot revenne, our Ssum- eihl position has heoome so strong that I Ao aot anticipate that it will be necessary, dup- Ihg the current year, to iseue a single Tmh- sury bill or borrow any money in acy shape or form. y * I dmtn now to refer to the debt statenwat tor 1896-97. On the 80th Jxtna, 1896, oor aftt debt stood at $258,497,482.77. As a re- sult of the year's operat4o»S| it has been io- Pi tai fust on e take Into a quarter's rear wihleb 111 come Id We most e expendl- 1 us in con- Yukoo dto- and order le safe »ide, id expondlr- it 188,750,- rect, a»d II al f&9,800,- losing tb« surplus of ixAt reapsMt urrent year he deAoit of ossiibly even aow ca«e to tnfidecvt tbait eBtlm of iK)ot. Some lave been «o Buch btti»y- be surpr1a»d lid be more I. The tot«il r the current J88,750,000, •'s actual ex- hie are to be on the pub- aeoount of geesary out- iDig up of ti3o lay i«Hultdu8 iraued In the also iQ tbe the Interior ImmilgTatton. nlal Railway rell our groee suved by my llweys that ! olteet by to- ne trom the ough our bor- Nsr, as I i!(ball 3 amoonit au- leeid therstoce giatn to reeort y day, I am wtoif to the me, our SsuiMr KHig that I 4o leceiwary, dur- a stegte Tre«r In acy shape lebt stateraeot L*, 1896, oar j.Tt. iuiiire. t has been l«- cramed by 18,041,168.69, the Aetatls of which are as follows : — Expenditure on Capital Ac- count and on Oanadian Pa- cific Railway »8,619,875 59 DeAOt of the year 519,981 44 Railway subsildiea 416,966 80 RebelH'CMi in the N.W.T 8,284 64 Consolidated Fund' transfers, inclurllitg llabilttdes incur- red prior to 80th June, 1896, Poet OflBce Depart- ment 682,880 62 Total 6,142,^77 49 L eno SlnkJmg Fund inyest- ments 2,101,818 80 Net tncrease 8,041,168 69 Making the iteit debt on 80th June, 1897 f 261 ,588,696 46 For the curreint fiscal year, I find we have expended up to the Slst March on* capital accoc^int, for railway sirbsiidieH and for die- counts and charges In connectSon with the laitB loan, »n all f4,606,186. lo compleite the jnear's requVremoewts on capital account and railway subsidies l*. is estimated that we frtmfT need fa,000,OOO, making a total of ?7,506,18.'5. In order to ascertain the net increase of our debt, we must deduct iChe stnkimg fund investments which are eetimat- ed to amount to $2,800,000 and ewtimated swrplus of 1507,000, leaving an increase in tfce net debt of $4,500,000 in round numbers kyr the year 1897-98. Mr. CLANCY. Where am the chaere ? Mr. MACLEAN. We are sitting on them. The MINISTER OF FINANCE. We pro- pose *hat hom. gentlemen opposite shall con- tinue to sit on those chairs for a long time yet. With regard to the flscali year fcegin- nlng on the Ist July neat and ending on the 80th JiMie, 1899, it is, of course, too early at tails day to estimate In more than genaral terms. However, I do not think that, so far as the custom® revenue is concerned, wo should fall behind this year's income, which I have ewtimated at $21,000,000. We have to remember, of course, that on the lj»t July this year the second stage of our preferen- tial tariff will be reached, and the rednctkm of 12H per cent ab-eady accrued will be fol- lowed by a further TOductiooi of 12% per cent, mtaking a total of 26 par oeait^ The first oneducticm ol 12f4 per cenrt was, per- hAps, aiot large enougtfi to make any great change in the stnream of BrlfcMi Impoirte. Be- sides it takies time tor the Britteh merchant* to understBJid the opcatatloai of these tarill chaaiijee, and lust about thn mnrratf wfesE he beeame awaro of tl!3 rbJucdon, aaid waa preiiared to deal with it, the difcnlty ^vom wifai reBpeot to the Belgium aod Oenn'^D treattes, which reinlted In the eo-ce"-^ pt^ fenrence being for a time extended tc a lar0S number of countries', and thereiore Qreait Britain was not in a poadtion to at joy t>M 12V^ per cent reduction as fully as we had expected and desired. Mr. FOSTER. The difficulty arose betom that, did it not ? The MINISTER OF FINANCE. No, only in the minds of my hon. friends oppo- site. There are no dlfHcultijs In this ques- tion on thl« Slide of the House; there wetrs difficulties which my hon. trieods opposite tor years sought to remove without vuecess, and wihieh have been removed by this Gov- ernment. I expect, therefore, that when the full reduction of 25 per cent, takee place, when the preference is confined, as it will t>e, to imports from the motfatr coimtry and from certain British colonies to wbici) I shall) Teter, I expect >there will be a con- siderable increase in imports tram Great Britain, and on these imports we shall re- ceive a sfmaller amount of revenue than we have hKheffto received. With a view to maln- tabntng our position as a sound one flntfun- clally, fb upholding our credit and guarding against deficits, it win' be the part of wl»- dom to Bntiolpate loee of revenue in that re- spect by makihg some increase to the re- venue in otfheir quartea:8 and of that I will speak later on. Excise should provide at leai^t aight and onet-half imlUioin, and iroin miacollaneoue sources, making due allowan- ces for IncreaM in railway receipts, trasn post oi^oe and interest on inveetmentsi, we should receive eleven million dollars. These I eatlmaite will give us a total revenue ol $40,500,000. 1 am epeaklng now of the year baginning on the Ist of July next, con- cerning which, of course, our estimates will have to be of a very general character, with very little opportumitlee of coming to cloae quarters, not such opportunities as we have with regard to the cwrresnw year. We hnve laid on the Table of the House the Eetimaitee for 1898-99, to the extent of $39,124,000. These Estimates include two new items, one of $396,000 for th» eacpemse of the Yukon dte- trict, and another of $760,000 for the run- ning expemaes of the Intercolonial Railway extension to Montreal, Under our method of keeping accounts, the Increased coBt of ' operating the Intercolonial Railway ha* tg be added to our general expenditure, even though it might be a source of profit to us r^iceented by an Incrsase on the other M^ of the account. These two new items for tiie Yukon and for the Intercolonial Railway, Items whidi wer6 mt necessary In our past Eetlmiatee, but that w* all recognize are ne- eeasary now, awJonnt.to $1,106,000. If we ».«—»-*, w^»jm« jt-t. w«U> v»*«^ V\#fc«*i «UUle found that the remaia^gar, $88,168,000, is about the same, as asked Sor In the main Estbnaiteis for the eurrmt year. In April la*t, In the courae of my rh- marka on the financial ouUook, i exp m m o A my bedler that when th« details o( th« tariff w«re once Mttled and annoanced, trade would noit onfly oontlnue to flow In Ita luraal channelo, but that w« miglit expect a largie liioreeMi. Whem those words were uttamd, the circumetance* i^ba/t I then en- amoraited pointed uminifvtiakalbly In ittuta direc- tion. The ffood harveAt, howerver, and In- creaMd prices have alnce that time lent their force to the ttde of events, and the period of resultiing prosperity tbwt Otunadia la and has been for some time pa«t enjoy- ing must be indeeid gmtlfying to every hon. member of this Houses and to every citisen of Canada, nnd miurt confirm the conviction tihat we all have as to the great posa4biUtteB of the tntare development of our country. I am sure, Mr. Spealter, you will bear with ni« wtieai I turn aside for a moment to enum- eratip a fow of the directiouB in whf h this development and pro«peirity have made them- 8elv«H felt. I propose to spealc flrst as an il- lustmartloii ot tlie incrBased prosperity ot the coauitry, of the Increased bueineee of ttie country — I propose to spealt of the deposits In the banlu. In the bank circulation the effect has t>eein most pronounced. I ii«ed no* vvei»ry the House by giving the details of the bank statements, but I may present a table showing the depositiB In the chartered banks for the past six yeairs, together with the totals : |.- 30th June, 1892 30th June, 1893 30th June, 1894 30th June, 1895 30th June, 1896 30th June, 1897 3lBt December, 1897 Chartered Banks. $ 160,942,778 170,817,433 174,930,936 180,664,121 183,769,992 201,141,688 222,002,147 Qovt. Savings Banks. $ 39,529,5^7 41, 48,658 43,036,012 44,450,498 46,799,318 48,934,975 49,466,656 Total. $ 200,472,326 212,667,091 217,966,948 225,114,619 230,569.310 250,076,663 271,468,803 That is to «ay, that in the six months from June last to December the deposits have Increased by over |21,000,000. To carry on the increased bus-lness of the country there has teen a very heavy demand for Dominion notes and bank notes, which the elasticity of our banking system has been fully able to meeit>. I append tlie flgures relating to note circulation for six years past : 3l8t October, 1892 3lBt October, 1893 3l8t October, 1894 3l8t October, 1895. 3l8t October, 1896 3l8t October, 1897, GovernmenJ. Banks. Total. $ 38,688,429 36,906,941 34,516,651 34,671,028 36,955,150 41,580,928 $ 18,647,063 19,844,248 22,212,884 22,893,25§ 21,607,563 24,751,932 $ 57,335,492 56,751,189 , 56,729,536 57,564,287 57,562,703 66,332;86a Mx. FOSTER. May I ask my hon. friend if Ihe took the some date < in each case for the Ghovsa-oment bank figures ? The MINISTER OF FINANCE, figures in both cased are tor the October, isya, and oontinning at ickate tueh year. The October oircutatlon, which is, as a Tee, the 8lBt of t'le same rule, the highest of the year, on account oT the moving of the cropd, ran about 56 or 57 mllUous of dollars for the year 1896 and the four preceding yewrs. The bMl'ieee of Octo- ber, 1897, required over 68 nrillllons, or an Increase of close to nine millions over 1896, The volume of the generRi buslnees of the country was such as to very marlcedly in- pmeot of beau> W'lifa : to enum- hl h thl« adto tbem- : M an 11- Ity ot tbe e of the e depoalta itlon tha ; iveed no' alls of th« nt a tabla !red baoka with the Total. 100,472,326 12,667,091 17,966,948 25,114,619 130,669.310 60,076,663 71,468,803 a, which stem hae the fi'guiree six years Total. 7,335,492 i6,75l,189 i6,729,535 i7,564,287 .7,562,703 i6,^32586& .ccount of t 56 or 57 J6 amd the B of Octo- rans, or ao )ve» 1896. BSB of the irk»dly ta- creaee the aggreiffate bask daarlogs ot the five principal citlee— Montreal, Toronitio, Halifax, Winniipeg and HamlHon. The tcntel cleaHuifs fur the thirae years, 18U5 1890, and 1897, according ts th© "Monetary Time*," were : ' 1895 ♦1,089,967,000 1896 1,036,960,000 1897 1,161,906,000 or an lnct«a«e of 1126,000,000 In the clear- ings of 1897 over 1796. For the four week- ly periods— ending Thursday — In January, 1898, tibe total clie^triitgs were 1108,509,673, against ^89,901,000 for the similar pertodiB of Janua..^ , 1897, or an Imorease of oveir '♦18,000,000. For February last, the total dleanings for the Ave cltlee mentloined wene $108,385,802, as oompiared with 174,612,- 552 lor Fehruapy, 1897,. nn increase of |88,- 772,760. Tha raiHwayiB, too, have experlecccKl the b€Ui«fits of this upward mioTMnent In trade, and the published traffic returns are an In- dex of the eattent of the betterment so far as they are cctncemeid. From let July to the end of February laet, the wrekly state- mont« of the two great railways of Canada srhow continual and steady increafhC? over the corresponding weeks of last year. Th» groas recedpte of the Canadlam Pacific Eall^ way for the ye«ir ending aist Deceraiber, 1897, were f24,0+9,53:t, against |20,- 681,596 for the pn-evlous year. The gross re- ceipts of the Grand Trunk Hallway, accord- ing to thedr weekly retuims, for the same period were $19,521,588, -against $18,781,- 885 for the previous year. The Increnae In the earnings of th© roads la mainly attribut- able to thedr freight and live stock business. The Share and bondholders have, of couroe, profited by the Improvement In the earning capacitiee of the roads, and the market values of their securities have advanced by bounds. Take the Oanadlan Pacific Railw«,y ordtnairy $100 shares. The closing price of Decern b«r, 1896, was 66%: the lowest price of 1897 was 46%, and the latest December price was 83%. The cloeliug price on 29th of January last, according to the "Economist," was 91%. In G-rand Trunk securities the advance wiaa equally mairked. Taking their 4 per eent guaranteed and their hrat preference stocks, I find the lowest price of 1897 waa 89% and 30% respectively, while on the 29th *«3Hiat7 they were quoted at TQMt, 77% and 67% to 68% respeofclve'ly. Taking the Oanadlan Pacific Hallway stocks quoted in the "Ecofnomlert," and the principal Grand Trunk lB»ues, I find that securities of these two railways to the nom- inal Talne of £88,187,497 were worth on the market ; On Slst December, 1895, £48,- 814,887; on Slst December. 1896. £n().. 480,618; on Slst December, 1897. £62.- «1T,910. I will DO'S.' take a fvw flgares frooi 4»m Trade BeturiM tor 1796-97. The total value of the importa Into Cabk ada for the year amounted to $119,218,609, whioh is nearly a million and a quartar of dollars In exoeas of the previous year, and over eiij^ mlUlona in exceaa ot the 4aoal year 1894*-96. Canada's export trade during the year waa, by far, the largest and greatest In lt« hia- tory. The total Talioe of the exporta U»e tha year amounted to the sum of $187,960,258, which ia over 16 miyiona of dollars In ex- cess of the pretvlous y^ear, ami 24 miUlooa In: exceas of the fiscal year 1894-95. The t'otal value of the Imports for homa consumption, exclusive of coin and bullion, foir the edgiht montba of tbe currant yeiar, up to the end ot Fetbruary, amounted to $80,- 821,881, which is $127081.880 in exoeaa ot tb«> corresponding period of the last fiacal year. Including cokt and bullion, the Importa for home conaumptton for tha eight montha amounted to $83,785,787, whiich ia $.^ ' - 506,815 In excess of the corxtesp Tndlo^f ~j|^:'^ lod of tbe last tlscal year. ' The total exports for the eight mcntha amounted to $119,644,464, which is $26,- 451,521 in exceaa of the export trade tor tbe corPBBpondimg period ot last year, and which Is also in excels of the export trade tor tmj whole year in the history ot Canada, prior to 1896. Whlh we have thu« placed before ua tha many en^dences of the growing prosperity of Canada, let us not be unmindful of the chief causes of this happy condition of affairs. Tlie general business of Canada has been prosperous because prosperity hae come lo the great agricultural ctess. There have been some mistaken notions in tihe paat as to relatione between maaaufactureim and agrl- cnltin«. The Idea exiertxMl In some quarters that we could build up a prosperous farming community by stimulatiJng manufactuireB. The h.ome market was everything. Caa*- ada for the Canadians was the cry. There are some things in- which It ia well tq have Can-ada for the Canadians, but we would dto well to put a wise limitation ca the meaning of the expreaalon, and seek for prosperity through the markets of the wortd. I think the country has awakened to the fact that, in the effort to make pvoth- perity for the trrmers through tibe stimuiet- Ihg of manufactures, the cart w«a bedi^ placed before the horse. If we cam fill up the farm lands of Canada with lndus±i4eB, prosperous and happy settlera, producing, not for the home market only, but^ tor the markets of t*e world, we eimll Imve tbe truest possible foundation tea' a imccessfu} raa/mifacturtng Industry a»d for gvmerai prnspArity, Let us tiien while w^ rs'olce is these flgTires which I have the privilege of presenting to «» Houae, amd wT*lIe we »• 8 ]ok!«i in this p«io»perlty, tot ue pemeanbeir tiiot that prosperity is due chiefly to the Bucoem of the fanmer, amd let ub see that by every rea»oni»ble amd proper eiMoirt we Bball emdieaTOQr to emcoura^ the cbevetopmeait of agrieulture ttoroirgJiout the Doanlulcni of Oan- ada. I f' ii© imow to dnaw the «ibtie««tio(n of ithe HO' -though it may h* ueceBBary only a» a m .T of form — to the new loan which I bad the ploaaure ol raieing on the Loodon mflirkeit tost autmnm. • You will recolteot that a Lodm Act wa» passed last sesaloin for fl5,O0O,COO. Theire were outataodlng bor- row ]ia«; powers at that time to the amooint of iipwfijrfto of $8,000,000, and that itogertheir wltk our power* under the Act of last see- Bion, gare u» b«»frowl'nig powers to the ajaount qf upwards of 123,000,000. The objects of theee laxge borrowing powers are well hnown. We had enteo-ed upom teirge expeaditures In respect to canals; we had Incurred cansildieiiable obligations in resptect of railways, and it was necessary to make pDOTfasion for these as the obltgatloais might arise. I may say that at the time the Loan Bill was beifoie the House last sesaion, the bBpresnion upon the mlmxte of some hon. geotkanen was that the fl5,000,000 was ratter teas than we should require. How- ever that may be, taking tne f 15,000,000 wMc'x Parllaimeint authorized us to bonrow, together V7ltih tho |8,000,©00 owtatandtog burrowing powers, we were entitled to bor- row 128,000,000. We did not, nowevetr, think it wlae to execeiee tivat power to t>he full extent. We came to the conclusdbon that it would be a wise policy to make our new loan for a moderate amiount, and it was de- cided that we fiihould maik< a loam for £2,- 000.000 sterltai«, or aliaut fl0,e00,000. There wei« seveipal reasons tor that. We did feel hopeful, in view of the growing prosperity of the coiuntny, that we should not need to bori^w tso large a sum as maoiy hon. gentle- men ith«raglht would be necessary, and tbere was the further oonsldeirattnin, that after due delftKeraitioai we imolvied' to try a very seri- ous experfcmeiniti — if osie can call any^lng' like ttfiat am experiment — we retsolved to take tlie somewhat serious step of makimg a break in the rate of Interest in the London maaikieit, Oa>n«da up. to that time had no se- cpt, nor (htad amy ortiuer colony. In view of the faYoulicy to maJce our lireH loan at tbat rate for a very mioderate am- ount. We so decided for this reason: that Is going upon the market with a new loan at a new rate, one always has to meet a cer- tain degree of prejudice; one will never get in a flrwt operation of that character so good a price as may be expected hater. Wa thought, therefore, that If we could get along comfortably with £2,000,000 sterling, It would be wise to confine our loan to that amount in order that we might eetabllsh tihe market for our securities on a 2}^ per cent basis, with the expectation that they would increase in value and that at no distant date, when It would be necessary for us tto go on the market for the balance, we should have our credit fairly established on the 2% per centt. basis. Bellevtog the moment fav- ourabh in the month of October, we ar- RAicvged to place our loan upom the markat. The oondittoois of th«i nuarldet up *o that tttana had been rBHisonably favourable, but tt» money market did take a slightly unfavwir- able turn at the eleventh hour of our tamns- aotlon. After oar prospectus had been Is- sued the numey mairked hardened somewhat, and on the very evening before our tendeni were to be received, the B«nk of England rate— which Is the ertandard which governs all money traawacttons in Londoni — ^wan adh vanced a haH per cent. Taking such a seri- ous step as we were at that time, one might well have some amxlety as to the result 1b view of that umfavonrable turn. However, I am glad to be able to state that so stirong was the pcNaitdoni of Camada in the money market, that whan this pnoposal was made, even under €h at Aiomeintary adverse circum- stance, the response of the pubUc was veiry ftatisfactory and our loan was nicwe than doubly suhsentbed. We placed the bondB om the m'arket at the price of 91 and they were taken at 91 pounds 10 shillings and 5 pence. Contridering, Sir, that it was the first oper- ation of the kind Ihat any colony had ever attempted. I feel that we all have great rea- son — and I am sure my boh. Mends opposite will Join In my words heartily when I say it — ^we have all gireat reaisoni to congratulate ourselves, ImeBpective of party, upon the very high position fheit Canadiaia cretdllt baa taken In England. I have hei'e a statement ahowln.*5 the rates of interest that have been patd for the various Canadian loans since eonfec'«Batk)n, and as It may be found use- ful tor future reference I shall read It. In 1869 CcjQiada issuetd a loan which waa partly a guaranteed loan, ooie ptortioo bear- ing 4 per cent and one 6 per oent, at a priae which made the st to Canada 4 l-S per cent. In 1878, anotflier loan was Issued which was also a guaranteed I nan, and the cost to Canada was 8 9-10tl» vm oesnt. Of oomse 1 need hardly say that where a loan had the guarantee of tSi» Imperial Govteancaent the rate was mose f^vonr-i^ lf>. Bon: that Is WW loan at aeet a cer- i never g*t i«.ract«r w> hater. W« could get 00 sterling, oan to thAt ertabl'ish tihe 4j per cent they would no dtetant y for us itlo , we should 1 on tbe 2H losnent fav- ber, we ar- tfa« markart. to that tlian« 9, but tiw y unfavour- if our tstfuiB- )ad been !•- 1 somewhat, our tendeoni )f England ich govefms mi — wen aidU euch a ewtrf- i, one migbt 10 reeuM is However, I It so 8rtax>ng the money I was made, 'ere© clrcusn- c was vwy more than le bonds on id tbey were a«id 6 pence. 16 first oper- ly had ever TO great rea- nds opposite ivhen I «ay Komgratulat* ty, upon th« n oretddt baa a statement vt have been Iioans since I tousd uae- eiad it. which waa^ KJTtioo benr- oent, at a Canada 4 1-Q Mued which I'd the cost t. lait where a n Imperta.) IB 1874, a Oumadian loan doflt Canada 4% per cent. In 1875, a loan w^h)loh w>as partly gaawm- teed cost 4 1-6 per eemt. In 1876, « 4 per cent Canadian loan ooet 4% per cent. In 1878 J a guaranteed loan cost 4 1-8 per cent. '< In lo?9, a Canadian 4 per cent loan cost 4% per cent. In 1884, a 8% par cent loen cost 4% per cunt. In 1885, the ooat ol a 4 per cent loan was 4 l-12th in one case, and in another class oi bonds 4 l-10«h. In 1888, the cost of a 8 per cent loan was ^% per cent. In 1892, the cost of a 8 per cent loan was 8 2-6 per cent. In. 1894, the ooBt of a 8 per cent kMn waa 8 1-6 per cent. In 1897, our 2% per cerat loan wae sold in Ixadon at a price wbich pepreeeotfl about 3% per omt. On the opposite column foUows a comparative table. I have a mora elaborate menioraindum showing the comparisons between the vari- ous Canadian loans tor aome yeare, and this comparision* has usually found a place in tihe Budget speech. If the Hohbki will pv- mit me I shall, without neading it, have It inoorporated fn the statekment so that it may be con-venient for future mference. MEMO, re CANADIAN LOANS. in Amount of O ID Price realized j Actual rate of interest paid. Loan. per £100 ■ £ ' £ 8. d 1869... •1,500,000 600,000 n 106 12 11 4i 1873... •1,500,000 •300,000 41 4/ 104 7 § 3A 1874... 4,000,000 4 90 8 3 ^ 1875... • •i,6oo,oeo 1,000,000 t} 99 1 8 M 1876... 2,500,000 4 91.. ^ 1878... •1,500,000 1,600,000 n 96 11 9 *i 1879... .3,000,000 4 95 1 10 4 4 1884... 5,000,000 3* 91 2 2 1886... 4,000,000 4 101 1 b Vi 1885... r Canada ]* 4,^ M i 6,443,1.% i 1888... 4,000,000 3 95 1 m 1892... 2,260,000 3 92 10 31 1894... 2,250,000 3 97 9 2 $1 1897... 2,000,000 2i 91 10 6 '4 n •Guaranteed. !' 00 G O a O) o § I o 10 ')g9j:»)ai JO «)«g -^ r- «o 2? a 31 ot ^ "5* o o o Sao CQ «! eg «a o e^ ne — <© o ooooooopJ S OS N Ti "- A 0> o urt) v-4 .- ^ i-H o pH fi-4 «*4 fH <-H I o tH eo «-« I- M eo c* t- >« fffl C» 00 1-4 ec »H SO fr4 00 ©w»-.oo-*e««c>oo ^O»i-(iOrt<05a500 O kO lU? lO CO - -. 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Has my li«ai. friend (Mr., Fielding) finlMhed hie trmerkm on the loaai bvftiaefiB ? Tlie MINISTER OF FINANCE. Far the praaent; there is one point turtfaetr, but I shell be glad to have my bon, trleittd (Mr. Foster) ask me aqy qumtllon cow. Mr. FOSTER. Would my hon. trtend (Mr. Fiedding) lay tfhe prospiectafl on the Tttble? The MINISTER OF FINANCE. I tinal] be very glad to. Mr. FOSTER. What was the lengKb of tbe lest loan ? The MINISTER OF FINANCE. Fifty years. There Is one other element in oon- ■ necrtlon with that loaoi to which I may make a passing referemce. Not only was k desdrable that we shonld have our l^dan placed on a 2Mi I>er cent liasis, It possible, (or the sake of the transaotkxn itself, but such a change to the 2Vii per cent rate . be- came of further importance in view of the eai^ly maturity of a large amount of our ex- isting loans. By reteirance to page Ixiv. of the PubUc Accouiit», it will be found thaib between the ynaoiB 1908 oind 1910, we sAiall have loians maturing to the aisount of £84,448,136, or 9167,628,262. To asetst in meeting the payment of these liabilities, I estimate that we sftiall ba^e accumulateKl sinking funds to the value of $«^6,971,181. So that we shall have to renew or convert the balance of these maturing loans to the amount of over 1100,000,000. The neft raite of Interest on cm* last loan, taking into account all char- ges, was 2.86 per ccrot. At the rate of in- terest which these loans that are to m — (that lb iis a matter whiich mustt 'be left to the general law of demand and sup- ply. But a littla examira»tion will aLow tthaA In some 'rrays the Government have the p^iwer of influencing the money market, and that, in fact, the money market has been !&• fluenced to aome extent by the policy of the Government, The ban(cs of the country are borrowers as well as lenders. The banks re- ceive from the public a large amount of capi- tal which they use in the business of the country in the way of loans. This capital is in the form of deposits, and when the banks have to pay an unreasonably high rate of inteaieet on deposits, ibteA is a reasoa —at all events, it is an excuse — for their n< ' gdving lower nates of disconnt to itbe bublness men of the country. It has been said that the position of the banks in this respect has been a forced position. It has been said that they have been obliged in times past to pay more than a lair value for money, because the Government of the country has been doing so. I suppose it will be generally admitted that in the Govern- ment savings banks we have been for a long time paying a little more than the fair value of money; and some gentlemen may say that we ought to do so in the savings banks. But I do not think we ought to ac- cept that position. I think the savings banks of the country were designed to afford a place of safe deposit to the people Interested In that class" of institution. By the way, I am inclined to 'think that the original design of the savings banks as a place in which the thrifty classes could put their small savings, has been long since lost sight of, and a very large proportion of the money in the sav- ings bank does notrepreeent that class of de-poeihoirB at -all. However that may be, we find that the Government in past yoan have b«*n paying a Ifttle more than the value of mooegr in the way of iatemeirt on la saylngB bank deposits ; and we came to the conclusion, after careful conaideratloB of the matter, that it w£M desirable, is the interest of the business of the country, in the Interest of successful manufacturing, In ith© iinletnefit of every man w'no toad to carry on his business t* so'^ue extent with .bor- rowed capital, that wo should not have an artificial value of .aoney in Canada, bat that a man should be able to borrow according to the reasonable laws of demand and supply. We belle' '^d that it was a desirable thing to encourage to some extent the savings bank deporists, and we remembered that the num- ber of those deposits was' large and thai the advantage to thb depositors was a matter of •ame impooitHncei: but we came to tbe coticUi- Bion that the Interest of the greatest number of the people demanded that we should not pay to the savings bank depositors a larger rate of interest than the reasonable value of money. Therefore, in July last we reduced the savings bank rate of Interest from 8% to 8 per cent. Although It was not a matter of public criticism, there were some who felt at the time that it was a policy which would probably lead %o large withdrawals -of money from the savings banks. Such, however, did not prove to be the fact. I believe, as a result of that reduction, that there wa« some reduction in the cost of capital throughout the country — not univeroally, but to some extetirt. Th« bankB of the countiry have ifthetbr different classes of customers, of varying credit. There Is the inner circle, who can get their discounts at pretty good rates; there Is the next circle, who do not get them at so good a rate; and there is the outer circle who are glad to get them on any terms at all. I think that the inner circle, the class of corporations and business men who are in a very sound financial condition, already ap- preciate the reduction that has come to them in the rate of interest. Since that time an in- cident nas occurred which has led us to go a ettep further. We dild noti itihinfc it wa« wtate to make so radical a reduction as from 8% to 2% per cent at once; but we did make the ivl^citiloin to 8 p*r cemti; ajud etoce we ha/ve boeor able *o place on the money marke* our own securities bearing a 2% per cent rate, we thought we should regard that as a standard value of money, and that we ought not to pay a rate in excess of that. We know that it costs about % of 1 per cent to man- age the deposits, and if you add that to the 3^ per cent to be allowed upon them, you will be paying 2% per amit, wihilch la aibou* the same as we are paying for our money In the English market. An hon. MEMBER. Less. la right — a fraction less. But, as I already stated, 'we expect the securi- ties of Canada to advance in value. 1 have pointed out that in making a new loan 'at a reduced rate of interest, we suffer some disadvantage at the moment; hot we all expect — barring temporary difflcul* ties, wars and rumours of wat-, which we hope may soon t)as8 away — that the securi- ties of Canada will increase in value at a very early date; and we may fairly regard a fraction above 2\ii per cent as the rate at which Canada can borrow all the money she requires. If therefore we pay the deposit- or 2V^ per cent, for his money and pay \i of 1 per cent fkn- the mfiinagcgnemt of the sav- ings hank, we are practically paying him. 2% for the money, and at a very early day we shall no doubt be able to borrow money- at that rate in England. We therefore pro- pose that on the 1st of July next th^re- shall be a further reduction of V^ per cent in the interest pe^able to depoeltiors!, makifhc: the rate 2^ per cent. Mr. 8PROULE. A grand stroke of busi- ness for the poor man. The MINISTER OF FINANCE. My hon. fri :]d, no doubt, thinks that there are many poor men who have their money in the post office savings bank, bat there are many more poorer men who are paying the Interest, and who have no money in the saving* banks. And the question is, whether a lim- ited number of poor men shall be paid a higher rate at the expense of a larger num- ber of poorer mem who have no money tO' put in the savings banks. I quite sympa- thize with the desire of my hon. friend to pay a good round rate of interest, but I think he will agree with me that a very large amount of the money in the savings banika to-day belongs to a class of people who do not neeed any sympathy from us, but are- ver.r well able to look after themselves.. And as far as the other depositors are con- cerned', if we gjlve thean the ser-uTlty of tbm public credit, and pay them 2% per oenit, besides the other 1/4 per cent which the management c©sts us, 1 think we are dealing fairly and justly with them. But 1 (Jo not put it before the House in that light only.. The main ground I am arguing on is thlSy that it is not merely an advantage to the Trea- sury — though that is a point not to be lost sight of — but that the rate of interest we an now paying on savings banks deposits has a material effect on the cost of money to the business community at large in the Domin- ion; and if, by this step, we can brini; about — not hastily, but gradually and surely — a reduction in thp cost of capital to the merchant, the manufacturer, and to every man who has to go to a bank to borrow money, we believe we shall be doing 8om»> thing which is for the good of the whole country. 1. ox-xvV^ CI u£j. jLJuv uusuuuui cuaF{$«a uy the banks since the last redaction has been lust as high as ever; so that the reductloa Imub iKut r«RuM«id as the hoo. g«tiftlem>aci pnn- dteta It will. u t, we Buffer loment; but •ary difflcul* , which we Lt the aecnrl- value at a airly regard i the rate at . the money • the depoeit- nd pay % of of ltil« BAY- paylng htm ■y early day rrow money herelore pro- next th^rt- ( Yi per cent tlor», maikfikg- >ke of busl-^ My hon^ jre are many r in the post ) many more be Interest, the 8aTlng» lether a Um- be paid » arger nnm- 3 money tO' ulte flympa- friend to pay but I think very large- vlngs baokfr sople who do us, but are- themeelyei.. ore are con- UTlty of Idle 1% per cent, which the } are dealing it I do not t light only.. > is thtey that > the Trea- >t to be loet erest we ar the wbolv charges by « has been be reduction utlenxao pm- Th* MINISTEK OF FINANCE. I am afraid the difBculty most be that my hon. friend and 1 belong to the outer class which osmtnot dlctarte to the beake, because I have reason to believe that that favoured Inner circle Is already receiving som«j advantage. But 1 do not put it on that ground alone. If that inner circle were receiving the ad- vantage, and nobody else, then I would not argue that the step was a very advantageous one in the sense I mention. But we all know that the rates of Interest do not change in a moment, and, if the borrower who now pays e per o<3Bit, eaa got a lower rate— my infor- mation Is, and I believe it, that many are getting their dlHcounts done at lower rates than twelve months ago — although for the pt«sent the advantage may be confined to that favoured inner circle, I believe it will gradually work out of it and my hon. friend and myself may some day get the benefit. Mr. FOSTER. Is there any hope of our getting into that inner circle ? The MINISTER OF FINANCE. Not while we are in politics. I want to say somiertihtng now with reigBjti to the tariff poUcy of last y«ar. I find that there it) a change of front on the part of some hon. gentlemen opposed to the Government on that question. When the tariff policy was •ranouiiceKl laat year, tib« Uonservative speak- ers and organb — I remember particularly an article in a leading organ of public opinion in Toronto, — took the ground that we were making changes which were threatening the business interest of the country, that the business of the country could not stand the policy which this Government had enacted. The Conservative speakers and organs told us that we were going to destroy the great industries of the country. Well, Mr. Speak- er, the cry has changed to-day. Looking over the year's operations under that tarUf, and finding that the business of the country has gone on Increasing and expanding every day, finding that that cry cannot any longer be used, these hon. gentlemen have turned around and say : You did not make any changes in the tariff at all; you have the old National Policy after all. Well, each of these claims is unjust. We made a change In the tariff — a change that was moderate and rea- sonable, a change that guarded against rash disturbances, but which, nevertheless, effected substantial reductions on the rates of duty, so that the tariff of the country is no longer the old National Bollcy. I wish to remind the House that in the old tariff, which hon. gentlewien opposite admire so much, there were apeclflc duties which ran up as high as 40 and 50, and I do not think I go too far when I say, @0 per ceEt of the value of ' the article. All these high duties, at all events a great many of them, have been rw^oved. MBijy o! the articles which lo fotEQer tii!i«s paiM a duty, «nd«r tbe old tariff, of 40 and 60 per oemt, and as high as 60 pea* cent, will be found scheduled in the present tariff at 35 por cent, subject to a forthar reduction, under the preferential clause^ so that, as be- tween the old and the present general tariff there is a considerable reduction of duties on a number of articles. And, whem you take into account the reduction which has taken place, and which villi be increused on the first of July next, by the operation of the second stage of the preferential tariff, you will find that this Gpvernment has given the country a very substantial m aure of tariff reform. 1 hold a list of about sixty Items taJien from the harlff. I might nave made the llfct much larger, but that sixty will Ik. sufficient for my illustration, and, perhaps, hooK gentlemein opposite will noft wa2it to listen to the whole list. The only reason 1 ask them to do so Is, to get the list on •♦Hansard," but if, after I have read from the list a few minutes, they will dispense with my proceeding further Mr. FOSTER. Read it through. The MINISTER OF FINANCE. My hon. friend Is relentless; but other hon. gentle- men on that side may not be so irsistent. Mr. FOSTER, can get it on the Thait is the only way yoo 'Hansard." The MINISTER OF FINANCE. My hon. friend used to get some things into "Han- sard" which he did not read in his Budget speech, and I hope he will not object to my being given the same privilege. Animals, living, n.e.s. — Dndei the old tariff the rate is 20 per cent. Under our general present tariff the rate is 20 per cent.; but If they should come in under the preferential clause, It will.be 17H per cent., and, after the tirat of July, the ircute will be 15 percent, as against 20 per cent under the old tariff. Mr. FOSTER, pect many ? Does my hon. friend ex. The MINISTER OF FINANCE. Not very many; but, such as they are, they wlH re- ceive the benefit of tariff reform. There are a few cases in which you cannot expect the articles to come under the preferential tariff^ because they will not come from Great Bri- tain or the countries entitled to that pre- ference. That is a fair criticism, and I do not want to urge that In every one of the cases the preferential rate will apply, but It will to most of the arttclra on this Hst. There are very few cases In which I quote a rate In which he importer will not re- ceive the benefit of the preferential clause. The following is the list : — 14 Statement showing the Old Tariff Rate, the New General Tariff Rate, the Preferential Tariff Rate to the 30th Jui-s 1898, and the Preferential Tariff Rate from Ist July, 1898, on certain prhicipal ar+^'^lea ; V V 11 125 276 540 325 180 360 371 362 368 312 447 294 Articles. Animals, living, N. E. S Books, printed, periodicals and paniphletP, or parts thereof, N.E.S., not to include blank account l)Ooks, copy books or books to be written or drawn on Rmw, manufactures of, N.B.S . . Indian corn not for distillation . . Bicycles and tricycles Coal, bituminous, &o.... Cotton fabrics, printed, dyed or coloured, N.O.P Cotton sewing thread on spools. Cotton clothing, including corsets Cotton velvets, velveteens and plush fabrics, N.E.S. Curtainn, when made up,trimmed or untrimmed • Drugs, dyes and chemical3,N.O .P Electric apparatus, parts of, elec- tric light cables, electric bat- teries ' Old Tariff Bate. 20 p. c... 6c. p. lb. . 80 p. c 7ic. p. bush 30 p. c 60c. p. ton of 2,000 lbs. 30 p.c... 25 « .... 32J " .... SO " .... 30 « .... 20 « .... 25 General Pr£3ent Tariff, 20 p. 10 "... 30 " ... Free ..... . 30 p. c .. 53c. p. ton of 2,000 lbs. 36, p, c. 26 " 36 " 30 " 36 20 26 Preferential Tariff to 30th June, 1898. 17ip. c,., 8| " .. 26i « .. Free 26i p.c. 46| c. p. ton of 2.000 lbs. 30| p.c. 21i " . 30| " . 26i « . 30| " , 17i " . 211 " Preferential Tariff from Ist July, 1898. 15 p. c 22| « Free 22^ p.c. 39|c. p. ton of 2,000 lbs. 26i p. c. 18* '• 26i '* 22J " 26J " 15 " 18| « I itJhtok tMt thte is am article. Jin w^hlcJi, pro^ bably, the Americans will do most of the bualnefls. But M the goods are imported fpom Gieat Britain, the duty, under the pr*. ferential clause, alter the let July next, will be 18% per cent. 362 361 77 Fancy Goods- Braids, bracelets, cords, frin- ges, tassels, &c Laces, lace collars and similar goodp, lace nets and nettings of cotton, linen, silk or other material Fiaz, hemp and jute, manufac- tures of— * Damask of linen, including napkins, doylies, tray cloths, eiaeboard covers, damask stair IJTien and diaper Fruits- Dried currants \ Dried raisins J Oi-anges, lemonb and limes, in boxes of capacity not exceed- ing 2J cub. ft. 30 « f • • • 30 <( • • • • 25 ( • • 4 01c. per lb.. 25c. per box. 35 35 30 " .... 01c, per lb. 25o, per box. .30f 301 26i « .... Jc. per lb.. 21 |c. per box 26^ 26i 22f " fo. per Ib.i iSJc.per box i I am asked whether I expect orangM to place whence we Mwii recoire Hum On more come from Bogland, I reply that I do not, bat I expect them to come from some other taronrable torms than at the present. Preferential n let July, 'referential Tariff )m Ist July, 1898. 15 p. c 7i " 'm " ee 22| p. c. 39|c.p. tonof 2,000 lbs. 26i p. c. ISit '• 26i " 22J " 26i " 15 " 183 " :der ithe prew y next, will 26J " 26J " 22f " fo. per lb. . I8|c. per box ivm Ou DaOfe sent. IS iTATiafENT showing the Old Tariff Rate, the New General Tariif Rate, the Preferential Tariff Rate to the 30th Jun*;, 1398, and tlio Preferential Tariff Rate from Ist July, 1898, on certain principal articles : 343 406 201 403 280 227 315 321 212 212 219 173 Articles. Fiirniture of wood or any other material, houee, qabinet pr of- fice finished or in parts. ...... Pur skins, wholly or partially dressed Olass and manufactures of : — Common and colourleso win- dow glass, plain, coloured, stained or tmted or muffled glass in sheets Hate, caps and bonnets, N. E. S. Iron and steel, manufactures of : Hardware, viz.: Builders', cab- inet makers', upholsterers', harness makers' and rad- dlers',including curry combs carriage hardware, &o... Iron in Pigs :■.. Machinery, all other, composed wholly or in part of iron or steel, N.E.S Manufactured articles or wares, not specially enumerated or provided for, composed of iron or steel, &c Leather and manufactures of : — Calf, kid, lamb and sheepskins dressed, waxed or glazed . . . Upper leather, including don- gola, cordovan, kangaroo, al- ligator and chamois skins, dressed, waxed or glazed... . Boots and shoes, N.E.S Oils :~ Coal and kerosene, distilled, purified or refined, naphtha and petroleum, N.E.S Old larifl Rate. 30 p. c , 15 " , 20 " 30 " 32J" |4.00 per ton* 27ip.c, 27J" . 17i" . 17i" 25" « (j c. p. gall. General Present Tariff. 30 p. c. 16 " . 20 " 30 « 30 " ..... f2.60 per ton. 25 p. c, 30 " . 17J« . 17J" 25 " 5 c. p. gall. Preferential Tariff to doth Jane, 1898. 26 J p.c 13i« 17f" 26|" 26i" $2.1 8| per ton 2Up.c , 26J" 15,^"...... l&A" 2H« Preferential Tariff from 1st July, 1898. 22i p.c , Hi" . 15 " 22i" 22J" $1,871 per ton, 18^p.c 22}' IH' 18|" I do not put anything in the preferential list for tBat. 169 158 140 139 347 334 394 Flaxseed or linseed, raw or boiled Paints and colouri. ir- Dry white and red lead, orange mineral and zinc white Paper and manufactures of — Envelopes, papcteriea, blank book«, and manufactures of paper Paper, all kinds, N.E.S Watcn actions or movements.. WooJ, manufactures of, N.E.S Wool, manufactures of — Cloths Coatinga Tweeds.. All fabrics, composed oil or in part of wool, woi'si &c.,n1.S my ted. 20 p. c . 1 5 " 35 " 25 " 10 •* ... .. 25 " . 5c. p. lb. 25 p.c and 30d. C 25 p. c . . 5 « .. ... 35 « .. 25 « .. . .i 10 " 25 " 35 35 «•!«'• 21|« ...... 2H" 8f« 30i« 30f« 18i« 3f « 26i" 18l" ijta isf" 26i" 26J« Jn i 't i6 Mr. TATLOB. That i» goud protection. " TheMINISTEK OF FINANCE. That only ■bows how thoroughly fair I am patting thMA items Id. 1 am putting a fi'lr state- oient belore the Housfi. There are a few casrtf In s^hlch the rate* of the general tariff are (ncreoeed, but In every one of these ratee It will be Connd f:hat when you apply the pre- ferential tariff >o it, yftn m.i.]* ure." That in an^'staure was the statenacnrt: of m^ htm. frload mot many dAya ago. Now, what was the attitude of the GovoiniBent oB this question last year 7 Was it deacrlb- ed correctly by my hoo. friend ? Did we say we knew all about this matter, that we we«e going to give preferential trade, that there were no doubts and no difflcuitles, and that we were sure to do it ? No, Sir, every fair-minded man knows that that is not a coxreet description of what occurred in thie House. What we did say . waa this : That while we knew well that the Belgian and German tieatiea had for years been regarded as stand- ing in the way of any auch arrangement, we felt that the Issue respecting these . treatiea bad n«ver liaein fairly and properly tried out before the British Government; we felt that the moment had arrived when we should shallenge the position that was taken on that question, to see if something could not be done to bring about a change for the. bet- i ter. I have atated that we knew that the ' Bellman and German treaties appeared to i stand in the way, but we felt the time had come when We could present th« quOTtloa k»- fo'.« Her MajeHfy'f Government In a naw 'jrm. In the first place, there waa room kot argument, and we did argue, that luasmueb a* the Eelg:lan and German treaties bad ne* ve/ b^n ratified by tho Parliament uf Oaa- ada, or by the legislatures of the province of Canada, or by any particular legislation auy- where, there was fair ground for contMul- ing that those treatiea coulJ not be made to apply to a aelf-goveruing colony like Qtm- ada. We had to take the position, in OaM- adft's interest and as the advocates of dan- ada, that it was our duty to pat farward every argument we could ^ut forwarll in favour of and in nupport of our claim. We had presented the question to the House to a form not ron^ned to preferential trade with the mother cooptry alone. We present- ed oar proposition to Parliament in tho form '' of ar offer to eit^id pi-rferential trade to such countries as might i>e wllliog to •xtend 9- tlom whetAeor thote tr:*tiep would Davw tte j effect which bon. grntienken oppoait* t« tiiila i House said they had. We went on t» eo*- tend, aiid ws did contend that eveajf S#l- . gluiL and Genuany »-rf>re standing in tli«» ir«p, : as they had been standing in the wry )» tiic past, the. -ew oc^ntJtiona that vrei'v iutpcrtd^ Into tho que«tl^43 minet l.^s wffer jiftm mate ;::• other countries, vrta to Bvlglnm aai Hm*- ; "jiau: , }• tlLjT ir»rn jprepars«i^ tr avail them- I ae^TMi )f tie cV?k, »m^*1 Ofuiada In a pMi- I tfon wMcL Hei Vfajerty's Ooveramemt shaaitf I coneJder. We were well aware that tkeae were debatable subjects, that some af than In times past had been the au^Jeet •! ^ifletfi- ties; we knew there wert dauMa mmt iifiaai- tlea surrounding them; a.^a woBalbly the ay havo the •^Ue advant- utteutlon of I ul the Eug- thoee treat- the queetloa, e dlfDcaltles, lat our Judg- coffnizlug th« )art of the Bent to take offer these they do not ■esponslbllity Cauada." laker, It will we recog- of the Bub- cultlee which )rward, not vlewB whic^ reitpects pn 'pretatlon of 1, we Rhould >ubllc in such t effectually the Belgian le Opposition there was no :entioD, and m our action, he admitted en demanded rgan of Brit- aed in Imper- the London that it was applied to the action of rs In London our Govem- reserved their ould be fully )f the Crown, to Her Mfi- law officers f hon. frieindii niater of Ma- in the legal ke. Sir, what il authorttief in question ntltled to r»- 18 same tarlfl to Great Brt- end«d thsBMu undoubtedly be in a po»l- bad borne no good fruit. But we all know th«t th« mat- (.ar did not and ttwre. While these ncgoM*^ tiocw were gotog on, wliile arguments wen being beard before the law ofB.ers of the Crown iu Englandi, aa to the puaitlooi of Canada under them treatlen, a great public opinion was being oreatied in the United Kingdom and throughout the Elmpire wihich became a potent factor in eetfllng this ques- tion. For the nrat time the people of Ehig- land were maile to fully understand what tbOM treatioe meant, and how they stood as a barrier betweim the mother country and her colonies. Poblle men in this country had been talking of preferential trade for years, but they had never got beyond tbe Htagr of talking. If we had followed . on the same llnea no doubt we would have been equally untiuccesstul as others had been in diflturblng the objectionable troatiee. If we had continued to make speeches on preferen- tial trade, and to pass moanlngles* refioln- tlruiB which womld accomplislh nothing, I have no doubt wo should have failed in re- moving the barriers which stood in our way, and I have no doubt we should have gone on (or years without accooipllshing any sub- Ntantlal result. Efforts have been made by bon. gentlemen opposiVe to make It appear that we could have obtained prefAreoiitiai du- ties in the British marketa in return for our conceaeions, if we deina>nded such. It' Las been said by these hon. ^ventlemen x'ihat my rigiht hon. Irlend the kiedier of the Goven))- ment had opportunities when he was in Eng- land of receiving what are called better terms from the mother country, and thai he failed to take advantage of these opportuui- tien; indeed It ia said that he r«fus«d ofTe.'^ which it la alleged had be«a made to him. I bellefve. Sir, for my part that every man who has had opportunities of sounding pub- lic opinion in England on this subject rea- llies that there was no ground whatever for expediting such prefereaitlal terms aa we are told we ahould have demand»d. I do not belieVe that any intelligent man will say candidly to-day, that there :1b any proba- bility in the immediate or etirly future of the Britiah people adopting a policy of pre- ferential trade on the terms mentioned by my hon. friends opposite. Mr. FRASER (Quysborough). Nor on any terms. The MINISTER OF FINANCE. My hon. friend (Mr. Fraaer) aaya "nor on a,tiy terms," but I will not go BO far as that. I will how- ever go this far, and I will say that rpon the terma which hon. gentlemen opposite talked preferential trade, there is not atd ne- ver was a gh<»t of a chance of Great Britain accepting it I believe that enrcry man who has gone to • England and has met public n3*n th»re, sind has met the representatives of the pre«s, and has got down nniontt the masses of the people, must realize the feet - that you caaminit get the masses of the t^ng- »9 I llsh people to impose dtflarential duties for I the bedwdt of the colouies. There Is a car- I dlna] point In respect to these duties which I reactass the masses very quickly. The ttist I step in a mo vera rant) of preferential tra4e of tbat sort must of necessity look towari* the imposition of duties on ffraln; a renewal ; of what are called In English the old Cora Laws. I ventured to discuss this phase of ' the subjeot in my remarks a year a^, and I ! Shall ask the House to bear w!tli me wbllc ' ( read a brief extract from what I then said. These were my opinions then : 'This question of prelcrentlal tradv htm " been mentlonsd in the House in times past. '* Leading public men have advocated prefer- '* entlal trade, but always annexing to thetr ' * suKipeations a demand with whdch It was j " well known England could not comply. All " the advocates of preferential trade, at all '* eventa all who have taken an active part I ** In that movement, have assumed that as I " the first step, England must consent to I ** put a duty on grain. We kno>w that Bng- I •* land does not view that project with fav- " our. We know tibat no more unpopular ' " project can be offered the English people " than to tmk. them to pu^ a Juty on bread- ! " staffs. It may^ be. as time lolla on, and at I •' an early day, they may change their vietws. j *• It may be tliat they may aae It in their I ■ interedt to make thla distinction, and tlui|7 I •• may offer some preferential terms te the " grain of Caaada. If the^y can be induced " to do that by fair argument, I ibave no " donbt it will be a good thing for Canada. " But wchy alhoiild we wait for Englaird to " take action ? England has dt>alt gtenep- • ously witb us in the past. England has " given us a larger degree of liberty perhaps " than is possessed by any other country oo '' the face of the earth. She has given us '• llbenty to tax her wares even when she " admits OUT goods free, and we have taxed " them to an enormous degree. Why "sJiould "we wait for England to do more ? Som»- " body must make a more in this matter, " and we propose that Canada aiball lead "tl'je way." As a gau^e of the public aenitiment In Eng- Uuncl I believed that these words were tme on vie 22nd of April last, and I believe they wAU be found to be equally true to-day. Then* wsie no prospect theni; there 1b no prtwiect now that the English people will agiee to tax theiir bread to pl^se tlte Gan»^ dial) I'eople. So mi \ hion. MEMBERS. Haar, hear. The 'MINISTER OF FINANCE. I do uot Bay th it such a thi g la Impossible. On the eontrw.', I admit it is within the bounds of po««H»il.ty, thpugh by no meaas likely to come In tiis near future. Somt* ton, MEMBERS. Hear, hear. The MimSTER OF FINANCE. 1 vei*- ture to aar, witb the fullest corafiboolu oJ tMB country laat year. St being 81x o'clock, the Speekier left the Ohatr. AFTEU BBCESS. Ite MINISTER OF FINANOE. Mr. SymkMT, when jon left the Ch«lr «t etx e'alwk I had bean dlacnaaing tor a (ew aoianlM tim qucartloo ot preterentlaJ tradai, wMk aome reterence to the deounclatfon o4 tba Balglan end Qenuan treaties, and alao with paantdcular reteranc* to tha Tiawa ob frelanntial trade which are aotnettBifla *z- prMaed by hon. gentlemen on the other alia ot the Homae. In ordier to stkoiw the Ttiwa which the Ooreranieot entartalnad kM* year on tha/t anbjaet, I bad taken the Mbert7 of qaoting a pa— aga from my own *p«Mk. It had been rapreaantad oeoaslon- aJly — and mj right hon. friend the Prime MMatar had bean panticnlarly attacked on tll»t aenra— - ; fore, the true oharacter of thoae tnatiss, and thua there was aecored the public opkir ion which enabled Her Majesty's Government to take the step from which In tormer yaars they luadi bean obliged to shrink. I pointed out, Sir, that if we h&d simply tailed ta sus- tain our grouiiM] with reepeot to the applica- tion ot the Belgian and German tiaattes, tttiait the reciprocal character of our terltf entitled us to claim that th^ treatlea dUd not apply, and that bad been the whole story, there would have been aome gsoand for the claim of hon. gentlemen opposite that our tariff policy in that reapect had not been a sucoeati. But when we were able to ahow, as a direct and Immediate leenlt of the step which Canada had takeok, that the danundation o^ those treatiee, which bad been bought by the colondea for eo long a f me without success, was brought about, then I say the Govennment of Canada had a spieoMUd vindication ot the policy tkvy had povsued on that question. We all hnow, Sh-, with what Joy the view taken by the €lov- erament of Canada was received by the E^^ llBh people. We know that while the Qov- emiment ot Canada was bached up, and promptly backed up, by the action of tho slit- ter colonilee, it was bached up etlll more strongly by British public opinion; and but for that public opinion, which I claim wa« the direct orttcome of the Canadian poltey Itself, thoae Belgian and German treaties would not have been denounced down to tbe present mH'ment. I have spoken ot the effect of the Belgian and Garmaji treatiee on our mevenrMit tot prelarantial trade; and now I muei say something with regard to another claw ot treittl^a, those commonly called favoured-ria- tiOn treaties. Great Britain haa treatlw with many nations, eontailning what Is call- ed the favouredruation clanae, by the tanns of wbifu it Is dflielazvd that If at any ttan Qi^t Britahi, ahoold grant «o vy ttitrd power any commercial advantages, she sliaii b* obliged to grant those ad'Tantagee l£ka- wtos to the contraetdng power. When, ^bwe> tl tluit att to ocean, •bouM b* [1 tra4«. It t the cnat movad on ,om«a« ar- itta* w«*a Ian adMl B«l- wer« not of pr»- whm th» had opao- tn th« meo- tlh* eoodi- •lal QovwOf tor aiBd !»- P«Opte VkDr itood b»- JoM tMatlM, public OpiDr Governmeivt (ormw jman I p«l«tad Bdled ta ana- tim appllca- i«n tnaMea, >f onr terttt rwttea dSd the whola nne gBomd oppoaita th«t wet had not » werre aibte adlata vaaalt tailuiD, tkat »atlaa, wklch I lor ao loog ought about, lasada had a ley tkv had II know, air, by the ©o*- by the Eat- lle itlta ' <3«^- Bd up, uui xi o! the slfc- ip still more ton; and but I claim was i.y the taana t asy tlBM JO any Oiird ^, shift slvail uatagee lik*- Wh«a, iHuf- (ore, by the action of Her Majaaty'a Oav- egnnniAuit, lit was dotcrrmlnod that the Belgian and German traa'tlni must ai ply to Oaa>- ada, and that we most admit Belgian and Oenttaa goods ba terms as tavourabl<) as the goods of England, then it followed that by the tenne of the faTonre«1-natlon traatlea, we were obliged to concede llloe advan- tageM to every one ot tlie nations which bad a treaty of that kind wtitii the mo- ther country. ^ I have here a artatement thowlog the several countrlea which have been brougbt under the o.'teiration ot the Oan- adiaa preferenftlal tariff : "Couotrles admitted by the reciprocal " chairacter of their tariff : New South " Wales, British Inidla, Neitlierlands, Jarpan. "Cenintriee admltteid under the Belgian " Mid German treaty : Belgium and Ger- " n»ajuy. "CoauntmleH adtmlttod under the favound- " nation treaties : France, Algeria, and the " French Coloniea; Argentina, Austria, Huiv- " gaiy, BollTia, Columbia, Demmark, Perala, *' Roflsla, Sweublic, Tonga, *' Sp«ia." The caee of France, Algeria and the FrenAb colonJes was goverated by our own Franco- Canadian Treaty, which had, of course, reoedved the approval of the Canadian Parlia- meiBt. In the other eaaea, the favoured-na- tion treaties had never received tflie approval of the Canadian Parliament; but they were neverthelefls hold to apply to Canada. Thus it will be aeen that the preference which we wisfeed to give, and which we actually did give for several months to Great Bri- tain, had to be extended to the countries I have namad; and we refunded to im- porters duties which had been collected in the Interim upon goods from those several countries. But all this will come to an end at a very eairly daflr. At the end of July in the pteeen-t year the Belgian and German treaties will expire. Canada will not then be obliged to give the preference to either Belgium or Germany. With the fall ot the troatlee, the claims of other aatioms, under the tavoxired-natlon treaties, to receive equal advantages will also fall. Cafl»da will then be free to con^ fine the beneeata of her preferemtial tariff to the mother ooontry and to such colomhw as, In the Judgment of Canada, shonfd be ad- mitted. That 1», Mr. Sreakar, what we eaa do, and that is procdsely what I shall have the honour of proposing to the House. Under the terms of the preferemtial tariff, as It now wtafluls, the second reduction of 12% per cent, making 25 per cent in all, will tak« eflect cm the Qiat of July next. For the moment, it wUl be uecesMry for us to g!v» t«# wrfMw redaction, not otrty to Orsat Britain, bat to tha varlona nattena I Iwra menftioned, beeaass the tvaatlaa do not «k- ptre until thie last day of July. We propoas to rep« fer as I proceed. Mr. McNEILL. Will the hon. gentlemaa kindly 8«y, how the denunciation of the Bel- gian and German treaties affect the favaar- ad-matton clause with regard to otkor eoos- trlea? The MINISTER OF FINANCE. By tiM Tavoared«iiation clause we are obliged ma .part of the Empire, \ give to any counttv having a lavouredt-nation treaty with Great Britain any privilege whicih may be granted to ?m(y third p nioit malre fhe mlartake now, o! supposing that the tariff is perfect. There are duties l» it which are higher than some of us would like tihem to be. Tlieire are ^ties which we hope will not remain tor ever or for a very long time. There has been, kow«»ver, a very general recognition among the friends of the government of the fact that, in a matter of this kind, it is ne- oeseary that wt should proceed In t*ie spirit ol compromise. It was realised that, in a lairge qmitibtn, aJTedtlng such a wide area of oorantry, witto so many conflicting inter- eets, . we could oaUy hope to work out the details of the tariff by giving and taking, as reapeetR the different sections of the coun- try. It was recoj^niaed by the people tbat we ought to avoid, as we did, euch radical changes as might be calculated to seriously disturb the busdness ol the country. All tihase conBlderartlons, Into whdeh the Sor- ermment were bound to enter, and whlcfi lnflu;e«ed the policy of the Government to a con»idnrabI« extent, have been recognized by !t9w public at large. I believe tbe people are rs«»oiMibl« M that respect, and will not ask vm to make «^ oiiee that which would be a radical cban^ asid f*«t whldi miglhit hSTS & disturbing iinnuttnce 'on bnsinesH. I tMalt It will be aKbnttted that freiquflnit tariff ebangee are not dbeeirable. Some- thlag in tlie natans of tatlff stability is mneb i to be desired:. It is better, even, that we j abould bear with some lnequaliti(« that I may eaiat, than suffer the greattr evils ■ which would arise from frequent tariff I changes. We have had repreeenitatloni; made by a jiumbeir of intarests wnictb, tlhey tbiltnilc, ought to receive more consideration. Some of tdieee presented cases which have, to, some extent, commended them to our Judgment, and If we were oper.Jng up the general revi- sion' of tJie tariff, or a revisit to any coih- sldecrable extent, we would be able to letad a willing ear to some of the representations tluat have been made to us. But we think, Sir, on the whole, belieiving as we do that the cthangee in tlie tariff should not be nuim- erous or frequent, believing that we sboaild have a large measure of tariff stability, be- lieving that the public understand the policy of the Government in this respect and will be content to have ut carry it out in that spirit of moderation and oantiion that wb have so far avineed, we wish to announce to the House that it is lot our intention to maloe any mumeroiis changes in the tariff at the present session, in fact. I may state that, so far as the rates of duty are con- cemed, we liave only one change to an- nounce. Tbei-e are some other changes which are more matters of form than of substance, •rtie preferential taTlff will have to be amen- ded in the direction I have already Indicated. We think it is expedient to make a change that is purely technical in the secridon ol tbe law relating to prohibited goodsu As re- spects the duty on raw leaf tobacco, which we imposed a year ago, we propose that, af- ter the Ist July next, it shall be collected I through the Department of Excise Inateadi o# through the Department of Custioms. It has been arnamgied that in the Excise Depart- memt the duty sihall be collected on a basis on what is nailed in the Inland Revenue De- partment the standard weight. Uader tihe existing law, tobae diealt with by «he Excise Deport- ment, that the regulations of that diepart- tnemt ahonld be adopted In the matter. With regard to the duties on tobacco, which were Increaaed last year to a consideaieble eit3en.t. I am tree to say that I have doubts that this is as wise a measuire as we boped it would prove. I may say frankly that I aan ay tSutnk, tifm. Some ive, to. 9ome ir Jud^neint, ^etneral r©Tl- tx) any co»- lie to letud a resentationfl t we think, v^e do that Bot be TmxD- we should ability, bo- d the policy ct aud will ut in that n that WB announce to itentlon to :b© tariff at may state y are con- ge to an- Migee which ( substaiQca. to be ametn- y Indicated, a chi8ung« ifdon o< tbe tdsi. As re- icco, which se that, af- I collected I Inateaxli at «n8. It ha« e Depaiit- ou a ba49to leveinue De- Uaderr tihe i on tiie e cnBtom». jome o2 the betore It that th«T it. OtbftT able to d)o the moist 1 equitable vd when it se D©p«rt- B't diftpart" itter. With vhJeh w«re ble exDBivt. n that it&l* it would am afraid fiiag to a may weil or no* we a scale of 0it rmpeet tfme, «od we think it only reaeonable to give it a fairer trial betoire we condemn iA Bo we do not propose to make any change with regard to tobacco except as I have juet an- nounoed. But, Sir, while it is a good) thing to avodd what is called tariff tinkariing, there is Just a poseibility that in condemning that practice we may go too far. I find tluut tariff tinkeiring Is an expreeelon which means different things in the minds of ditter- ent men. A majn who le quite satisfied with the tariff thinke that any iancertenemoe with it is tiiUiering, wheaeae a maa who is andlng of their own poedtioni, and best ooQsnlt the permanent Initareeits of manufact^ oring enterprises, it they will lealize that very important fact. It is well, If they are to-day in a position which affords them some oomitort and advanttaige, that they should app^jr their time and use their opportunitjy to get their business upon sfuch a basis that it will be as little as po&slble dependent upon tariff aid. The tendency of a high tariff po- licy is to lead men to look too much to tar- iff and too little to the efforts they should tnake for the benefit of theiir business. What a world of good might have been accom- plished for the true lnte«Bite of mannfiact- uiriiig in the Dominion of Canada, it all Lhe time, and all the energy, and all the laboTir, aEid all the money that have been expendlsd in the last twenty years in tariff watching and tariff wire^-puUIng at Ottawa, had been eKjiended In tije factorleA. In the develop- metit of business, in new invention and dis^ covery. In prodtuclng labour-saving machin- ery, in learning what might be dicme with waate prodncts, !« deniling wit4i all (those fomjs of indnstrial progrees which have to be dealt with by the m anulactcrer when he has ikeen competitioB. We Vvtld, tiienre- fore, say to the manufacturer •■• t if he d«K ■ires permanency in the tariff, he must cenrer expect penuaneocy until the tardff gets dow) to a moderate point; and tO'^ay there are duties in the tariff so high that I am siare ttie Government are not prepared to treat them as part of a permanent tariff. I ifty this, Sir, in no spirit bnt that of trieiwllinssB to the manufacturing Initsrests. While the manufacturers are in a I'airly good positioo to-day, It would be a mistake for them to tail to realize the fact that Canada has tam- ed her face away from a high tariff policy, and thougih we may proceed slowly, what- ever progress we maike from this time for- ward must be and should be in tihe direction of greater freedom of trade. Hon. gentlemen have already observed that in the Imperial Parliament the Colonial Sec- retary, tbft Right Hon. M.r. Chamberlain made some reference to negotiatloins that were taking place between the Dominion of Canada, United States and the West l.i lies with regiard to reciprocal trade. These ne- gotiations, so far as Canada is •onee''ned, hiave not gone very far, ajid we have not mnch to communicate to the House concem- i- ly from oontlnenftal nations which supply as with beet sugar and take little or nothing from us, I tlhtnk the Houst will agree with me that we ougiht to desire an extension of our trad* with the West Indioi and to eoor sums to a larger eixtent the products of that country. If w* were to put aside all other v>nskteratio«s, the advosntages of trade with that country appeal so strongly to us that I am sure the H'uae would desire us to make sune special ei^oit to extend oor trasl^ass in Ihar Quarter. But there is another consideration wblofe we may well t«ke Ijvto oor minds. Tfee West Indte question ttMJay is one of the pwrt problems of the Empire. I» Utaa olden d^y« when sugar was Mng, when cane sugar was In greO't demand and at high pries the • West lnd)ia cotoniee were among the moait proi^eirous eoionies of the Empire. Bu^ 24 !!^!(: lilili' lil ii" timoi have atuLfiged in that respect, to soma exter.t, aud tiie Wenrt Imdlea are Aufferiug to-day from a rery severe d«pre8Hion. What the (MU1M0 o{ tnait depu*eMlQia are, may pcMiai- bly \yi a subject of cootemtlon, to «oine ex- tent. It is alk>«0d that the depireeaion is lilie reealt of a tallure on ttie part '^f the Wetit India plantfliri to live up to the timen, amd to impmove their mcithiodB of growing and tihelr raethotdK of treating sugar. I give m- otlMT eoitdiltiou hoiB .operated veiry largely against them, and that la the developmecut of the beeti sugar in/dustry, particularly in the case of the »onrtiinieffi:tal nations where bonin- ties are giT«n. The West Indtee claim tdbat as' reBpeotfl the conSlct between cane sugar and be«t augar, the WeBt IndieB could' hold their own but for the dlflBculty which is «re«ft«d by t\i» bounity system of Europe, not- &b^ of the vartous contiin«aital natioiis. Just haw tar that Is correct is perhaps a matter upon whdch nomie of us can give a conclusive oplnfoa. Wha(t we do know, however, la that thvm million avd a bait to a million and threwMiaarterR of people in these islands, are fluffeiring a very severe depreesion. Thedr flnainoes ai* in a bad positlofn, the business of tb« Islands is In a baid position, the eom- ditlou of the West Iindjies Is at this moment a very ssrious subjaet to the people of the oolanisa, and a vary grave pfoblem tor ftbe Imperial Govemiment, and the Imperial Par- liamernrt. So Iceemly lias this matter been felt ot late, that a few mocoiths age a royal commisstoa was appoin,ted by Her Majesty to Inquire into the condition of the Brit- ish West India colonies. That commission was ccmposied of G«neral Sir Henry Norman, Chairman, Sir David Barbour and Sir Edi- ward Grey. These geratJemen made a very exhaustive Inquiry into the condition of the Was* Tndiee; and they reached conclusion*, some ot whloh wiwe nn«nlmoiBe, and some of which were matters of division. It was agreed that the financial paaltioo of the Weert Indiee was so embarrassed lilhat the Imperial dovernment would have to gremt aid in ttie way of loans aond ^ants for pub- He woita, and that, I may say, . is being done ait this moimant by meamiree whtdh are before the Imperial Parliament. The dialiv man of the commisedon, Sir Henry Norman, w«at further. He claimed that they were not likkdy t/> be succemful in dealing wttta the Wee* Xmdla question unlese they were prepared to adiopt a policy of countervailing dutlas, that ie to say, that wherever a con- tJbieaQita! oaition granted a bounty upon its lie«rt Mtgar, there should be a counter- vatihMir «*oty upon that sugar if importeii! In- to flr«at Hvitain. ThAji ■n>tis<.t hss Y^fsi ▼epy much dlsouewrf In Great Britain. I do not Mklift; tfce aidvocates of countervatlfng ■ datiM them are very nnmepons, but they art ' certainly very iintelligent, able aaid influeok- tial, aiKl an imprfcasion existtid in tiie minds I of mauy people that Her Majesty's Qovenv- ment would yield to the recommendation of I Sir Henry Norman and establish coontervail* inig dutiee. However, any doubt that might have exisitieid on tnat score has been removed of late by a speech delivered at LiverpoKJl by the Colonial Secretary, Mr. Chamberlain. In thait sipeech he indicated that the British Qoveirnmonit were not prepared to accept the remady of countervailimg duties, but that tbey would seek in otheir ways to aeslst the position ot the Weet Indiiee. I have already sitated tliat meitive tarilts. The dutiee im- posed are largely on food products, and tSiese, B« we cam well understand, are the very thin^ that Canada might hope to sell. I hav* heim a etatemeoift which I shall «vm> m <•■»(•«, tt tj iu itmiiuB TV 111 (reuiuii. UIV 'UU do f,ie, showinig the operation of tjiese West India tariffs on some of the chief product^ of Canada : HKH e aad Influanr- 1 to tii« minds 3)ty'8 Qovenv- iiueoMlation of h counterrttil- bt that might been removed Liverpool by imberlain. In the Brltlsli to accept the J, but ttat to aeeist tb« have already •e the Impesr^ I In the shape nrorkfi. It is t GovecnDmemt air ways. Ef- the West In- cIb to give up irote thertr ait*- vhich it is je«fully pro- vill be ctoue iroductlon of off, the proK y fruits, hew, bill, sugar Ib of the We«t long time to a profitable ^eet Indiies, I h hope of the edre beinig ob- tiait Her Ma- \« this qoe»- at they are In the lace irred to ua our (natural Koles, thougb » with which e have some 9 matfter — it >ukl be will- tielpinig hand outhu If we lying fee turn I afraid we erms of tbe t favourable : by a meir* erentlal ti&r- of the W«»t liey are ihigli they are k» le dutleci im- oductB, and ud, are the lope to sell. »hall «vm> cS^uit uiv uO ! tiieee Weet lef product^ 5'5'5'g 'B rB <* 2 TO hSP 2. •rt ■ O «rt or"© «" - r ? - ►- ■ Z."* o •"* "^ ►-• ■ P'S "" «S^ 2 P P S" s — ^. -^ -. * o« *^ D 3 S S o. <7) SB m' cr O s D SB a 03 o B OB 25 o 3 CO GO r r o » * tti 3 to o to QQ to X n 5 - • 1 K : s IB --> 3'2 ll 3 2 J5 ^ • o '^ " « ^ »*> ^ g I-" >i s 3 B9 o o — rfi. «1 OS -J> Or C5 1*^ SB m w to 00 CB « Ul 2 to- il^ S: 0> >t3 'S a* ►1 o a w ^ a* vO 0» >^ & o. & £: S Cs jfti. 0> c* »^ & M- U- ^ a •S 1 1S " r o hg ►- I— <3i a. <9> •g ? ^ -« ^ "g I ; 't : er •-« 1 .0 I t* — 05 CD S o OB £1 -r J? to ►- O Sb ^ o> "^ •^ ; "^ •* T •I ►« < ^ H >f; ^,„ . , M.' cr i cr c CO H >- H M H cr o ■ 3 I— I s o a- a. Was 5 o- 3 «6 S O P O s o . o ■£». 2 O w- 33 ^ 5^ 3. cr 3 a, J t3. CD c 1' 26 m if! 4 '4* A* I thluk ift caauiiot be contaiMtod tib«t tti uay CAM Haem are pamtBctlvs datleia. The^ are oot dwigaed to arolud« the pnodmcte of Cao- aifl, or imdned to exclude the prodmcte of BDiy cwuntry, but tho«« people find that the nae«Mltiee of theiir revenue oblige thean to tax to»od prodfticte very heavily. Therefore, t.1 I eald a momciiiit ago, were we to apply too rigidly the principle of our ptrefereinitlal tamitf to those oolonles, I am Inclined to think we could not properly admit them >to t^ baneiflit of th«ut tariff. Nevetrthetees, in view of the comdlbloii of alfaiiB which ex- ists thetre to-day. In view of our own deeine to extend out trade rela/tioas wttlh the West Inddee, in view of the dilfflculties which are preeeoited ifi the treatment of the queetlon by Hea- Majesty's Government, and wltth a desire to auslst in gome small andi modest 'Way in working out these gtreat and ddflS- cuH problems, we propose that without waiting for au^thlni^ further, witbout d»- manding concessdons from oor West India trlends which their neields might noit allow them ito grant, without Inaieting upon a rigldt compliajicei with the comdltlons, we propose, after tlie first day of August, wb«a the treaities expire, and whem we can give full play bo our policy of pfretferemtlal trade, to etxteod that polllcy to all tftie BritlA col- onies in the West Indlleei. The principal Imports to be expected from (he Went Inddes will 0(f course be augar, but we ma^y eixpeict other things, and noitabliy fruits. Ou the other haind, we sihould be able largely to Increase our sales of Cacva- dktn products to those Islainds. The mniri- tlme piovlcces have long carried on a trad* with those Islands, chiefly Im fish and lum- ber, tbough other products have been sold B» well. If we increase our purohasee of West India sngera, as we hope to do, there is no reesoin to doubt that our eccpocrts in these lines will be Increased. But, Sir, w» do not thltnk this trade anould be coniflmed to the meyrithne provtnceB; theipe dbes JWJt soem to be any re«agon why the products of the province of Ontario and the great w«wt should not find a lt tihe quality is what tlbs West Indian martcet wants and the 9ty j tort elhonld be made on these lines, and we [ tSiink till© best wei caa do for the people of I the West/ Indies Is to say: We will give yos ; the benedit of our prefereraitdal tariff, wlt^hovt , bargain or anything else, and ws do ant espent you to make very great eoncsssioos to us; but if aoy maa^ie can b« dSfvURM! whi^relby obstacles to Canndilan trade asB be reoaoyed in that quarter, we (have ns ; doubt iSMd ywu, our brother col on fats, will tf xamat \m im tiM meert jou. aam* «plTlt b» wt dnlM to dliK rt0Bd Tbere la funotlieir direction In wbioh we think we can do a little to help the paople of tbe We»t Indies. TIhe preMtnt method of lavyilng the »ug«ir dutiee In Canada opw- atea uniavourably to tihe BUKar tradie wM!h the West Indies. Tihe duty .a & flat speci- flc duty of oiier4)!alf cent per pound on raw angoip. It admitB of very large Tariattoois and very large injusticeti. A sugar teAtimg by the pokiriscope at 75 degrees Is worth 86c. per 100 lbs., and 50c. juty repreoantn 58 peiT cent. Sugiair testing 96 decrees is wonth 12.27 per 100 Ibe.; 50c. duty rwpr*- sentB 22 per cent, as against 58 pe- ential rat© will be 16 37-oOthe, which will leave the prefeiential rate at 49 1-8 ueoiits OS against the existing rate of 50 cents per 100 pounds. That Is to say, upon so much of our sugar consumption as we may be able to obtain from the British West Indies under the new oa-der of things there will b* no increase, but on tlie contrary there will be a slight radiuctiom, of duty, it being— 41 the average as giiven bo me is correct — 49% as ragainst 50 in the present tariff. But as respects that portion of the sugar vvihlch nnay not com© from the West India*, but which may come from other countries there win of course be the amall liscTease I have mentioned. Mr. WALLACE. It mtist be the prodtuo- tlon of the West Indies; not only sent toPom there but produced there. The MINISTER OF FINANCE. Ofa, yesf ^ ee^H cents per 100 pounds. With respect to Ulie duty on roflned sugar, we propose to apply the polariscope to that also. In tlie case of raw bugar we take as our starting poimt 75 degrees, but In the case of neflned eugar we tabe as a miaitter of course a higher etiarting yolrot. We pm>pose that the duty on reftned sugpar shafll be J1.08 c«ntiB p«r 100 pounds on sni- gar testing 88 degrees, or anythtng below that; and tar ©very additional degree th«rt will be 1>4 cents per 100 pounds added, Just as in the case of tbe dnnty on raw sugiar. •o what is called yellow sugar teettng 88 degrees, the tncreaBe of duty under this ar- raogemeint will be 8 cents per 100 pounds; altfeough the Increasad duty on -tihe raw ma- terial, or so much oif It as may come from otliOT cou-wtrleB than the West Indtai, will be eonsdderably In erxcees. If you start at fl.08 for 88 deigreos, and if yo<«r, Miat this rednetloo " flfetall not apply) to ^my of tftue lo-llowiinc «r- " tleWe^ and idnat fluch articles aliAll in all " OSMA be subject to tbs duties mcn«Ionsd In "fteliiediule "A," vis.: — ^wljuw, meiit liqaoni, " qtirits, spirituoue llqinoais, liquid medicines " nidiike" aj» woorldnwlde names, aod tlhe, laod tiiirougb whioh itheae rivers run Ih atbtractiiug to Itaedf many thoiMtaudM of people< (roan tihe great ce'Dtres of civlUza'tlon. Iji neiarly ervery de- pairtmemt of lndu«»t'ry In Oaauuia titiere ia ac- tivitiy and confldiea>ce. We are oot tooli-jli enougli to claim that all tills has be«u lii'ougbt about by our po- licy, al/though we are well aware that it fhe nesuktB had becin the reverse, the bl)Jeot in aplrdted lines which will live in the iiistory of Canada, and which, even if, as some bave tihjofugihit, theiy may cqnveiy Inaccurate ImpreeakMis as to the ooklaMigs of ^iBT climate, will neventtieleBe tell to every reader viotlo(D to the iHteoneiRitB of itftue Empire. British statesmen, both ptiblldy and privately, eixpreeaed their satisfaction wltii Qc^aiiadtt's aottoo'. Tfe« Cokailal SeciB- tas-y, ttoe Right Hon. Mr. Chamberlain, in an offllclal diOiiimtcb to Hia Exoellency the Got- entKxr Oeroerai, wliich I shaJti place on tihe TaWe-— « dwpatcii eommoMeatlng tli« a»- cisiotti of 3«r Majesty's Mbaisiters rMpeetlng the affect of the BelglaD and Qermao traa- tlea — used SKxne words which I ma^ pno- peirly quote here : "I desire," said Mr. Ghamberlala, "to add, " in ooncKision, that the action of the Dch " minion Government and ParliamtaOit in " this matter, altJiiough, unfkxrtunately, Itii '* full effec. will be temporarily poatpooedi, " has been warmlj welcomed' and appreclat- " ed by Her Majesty's Government and the " people of this country, as a measure vv'hich " cannot tail to result in material bv^jeflt to " the motiher country and to Canada, and to " weM tiogeither still micre firmly the ties " wihlch now unite them." Sir, the policy which Her Majesty's Gov- emmfnt so warmly commended, was a po- licy designed to eetablish preferea^tial brad* between Canada and the mother counitry. To-day we suhpi'.t a ixroposal which enlarges the sphere of th<>(t preferential trade. To-day we propose to include within Its benefita. a large group of British colonies, the attatn of which are at this momeu''^ a cause of m«cb anxiety to Her Majesity's Government. Thus step by step the good work goes on. On© step remains to be itaken, a>nd I believe the day is not far cMstanit when we Shall be able to take it — ^a step w'hlcb will extend the benefits of the preference, not only to Gireat Britain and the colonies which we have now Included, but to every oolppy and po»- seasdon of the Empire. The following are the resolutions : — "1. Thart it is expedient to repeal section * six of "The Customs Tariff, 1897," and " to substitute the folilowimg section thieine- " for : — "6. The impo4-tatiiio(Q iwto Canada of any " goods enumeraitad, deseribed or refterred to " in Schedule "C" to this Act is prohibited,; " and any snoh goods imported stall there- " by become forfeitetd to the Crown and may " be destroyed or oiharwise dealt with as " the Minteter of Custome may direct; and " any person impontinig any such prohibited " goods, or oaiufling or permlt<,ting them 'lo " be Im ported, shall tor each offence. incur a penalty not eoicieedlng two hundred dollars. "2. That It is expedient to provide tJiat " section seventeen of "The Customs Tariff, " 1897," shall be repealed on and after the " flrsit day of Augusit in the presemt year, '• one tlioueand eighft hundred and ninety- " eight, and that the following section shall " be swbstitttted therefor t — "17. Articles which arie the growth, pro- " diuce or manufacture of any of the follow- " ing oounitriee may, when imported dl«ct " into Canadia from any of ewdh counitriea, " be entered for diuty or taken, out of ware^ " honse for consumption in Canada at tHe " reduced rate of dnty provld^e^ 1H the Brit- " fflh preferwitlal tariff ee* (orth in Bcfaeiole " "D"to this Act :— (a). Tlie trait«id KittgAoA of OrMtt Britite and liesiemA. 31 , pro- oilow- « tflrect otriea, w»re- t t»ie J Brtt- ;h«iole IrltMite (b). Tb« BrMta^ Cokxvy o( Beavuuda. e). The Biritlsh ColootaH oommonly ealkert the HrltMi Wecvt Indloa, loolan- aamat, and' tihe Virgin jMlaxuim). Xhe WliuKvturd Islancis (Ghrenada, St. Vluoeint aiud St Lucia). BBrl>ado«H. TriiiilUiad ttud Tobagio. British Ouiana. (d). Anty otbsr Brlt*8ih Colony or pobmbb- kxn fahe ouetocns tariff of which, ooi tli« whole, is OB favouo-aible to Can- ada as the Britlah pretoreoitial tafll! ihea^n referred to is to such colony Of poaeessloii. "Provided, howaivw, th^-t manufiactured airtlcl«8 to be admitited under guch prefer- atial taotifr flQiall be bona tide tih« manu- .a«ture« of a country or conntriea entHttfld - to the bonefitB of such tariff, and that suah ' bein«iflt6 shall not extend to the ImportAf- ' tdioin of Oirticlee initm the piroducitlon of ' which tiheffe has mcxt entmred a aubsitantlal ' potrtiom of the labour of such countries. ' Aoiy question tba/t may eirise as to any atr- 'ticleti bedng antitled to such beneflta ahall ' be d0cid«id by the Minister of Cuatoma, ' whose decision ahall be final. '"J. The Minister of CuaitomB, wlftli the ap- ; proval of the Govea-nor in Oouncll, aliall ' derternllne what Britisti oolooiles or poasea- ' aiona siball be entiitled to tihe benefits of '.the praitarential ttiriff under clause (d) ot 'tflJe section. "3. The Minister of Cusitoms may, with • the approve,! of the G^aveamor in Couaicil, ' make such regiulations as may be deemed ' oeceflBary for carnyiiing out the Inrtemtiooi ot ' thds hectifm. "4. That it is efxpedieot to provide that • Schedule "D" to "The Customs Tariff, • 1897," shall be (repealed on and after th« ' first day of August^ in the present year, on» • thousand eJgiht hwiidred and ninety-eigiht, " Bind that the following schedule shall be • •ubstftuited thereifor : — SCHEDULE "D." BritisCh Pr^erontlaJ Tariff. •On AiTticlee lUhe ginowtlh, pirodiuoe jtr maTinfactutre of the TTnlted Klngdoim bt Great Britain and ImeUmdi, or of any Bri- tiah colony or posaesieioii emtitled to the benefits of ibln preAeireiiittal tariff umder aec- tloin seveateein, the duties ir.esiitioin«d In Seh«rt»le "A" shall be reduced as follows i -Th« red(uctIot bumdrwl " aoMl nkDaO'-eiglLt, in aaceo, " nnnrtKinuneNl, taken out of wa>r«ibouM for " nuuiiutactim, In any cigar m tobaeoq " m«inutaortoi7, teo oants per pound. "(b.) On all toraign raw leaf tobacco, " •temmed, taken out of wan»liouBe for miana- " factnm, In amy clffar or toi)>acco manntaet- " e Incooivanilein/t to breiak tiie of debate wbicib usually takea pLaee wtam the ex-^^iaanoe Mlntoter dtecuaaea tSM l»- turea of tiie Bndgeit aa eapowd by the lil»- ister of Finance. In hJa b«half, I b«« ftp move ttfae adjourumcout of the dabata. The MINISTKB OF TBADE AND COM- MEBCE (Sir Rlciiard CarHwrlgtit). TOmM la no objectioo to thia motion. We nmrafe the oauae very much, we regiret tiie India- pofldbiou of the boo member, but aa amus- ed witjh nay boo. frtonid, tiiere will b« no ob- lection to adjourning the dabotta. Motion afirreed t», and deibate adijoumad. The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COM- MERCE (Sir Richard Gantiwrlgilut)) . I avp- poM if my hoo. friepda oppoalte liave r»- celved aa much informaition aa thegr oaa very well ddgieet, even thoiugh it m«y hava bean aamawihat aw ea l e n ed by the eoncludliic paragraplba of my hon. triend's apeacb, and ondar thoea circnmatancea I would beat eoj»- ■ult tlhedr wiahea aod'tiie vlewa of my triMda bedilnd ma by movli^g th&t tha Hooae do nov adlaam. Motion agreed to, and tiie Hooae a/ijomtm ed at 9.80 p.M, men veralti I Scotch for a cee. bear before dulge, as to wihJdh Issue man n folly does ii> with the slg It fg e^ wbatei tkai g) la«t y« iTJftnd, which bands, meat, Icotild bad be wI go ovei of iwos had bae •vldemo Wow, . wa 33 SI=E3EOH[ OF Sir Richard Cartwright MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE OTTAWA, 12TH APRIL, 1898. The MINISTER OP TRADE AND COM- MERCE (8lT Richard Cartwright). Mr. Speaker, if my hon. friend's arithmetic is in other respects as faulty as in the computa- tloo he maicea of the number of yeers we have been in office, I am afraid tie ties a good deal to learn. I beg to intorm him that twenty months of office do not by any sys- tem of arithmetic that is known to me, equal two and a half years, though I can well l>elieve that the twenty momiths have seemed as long as thirty to my hon, frle^^ Now, 8ir, it has beem remarked by petwom who take am Interest in that kind of thing that there are few slghta dearer to gods and men than to see good men struggle with ad- versity. I am bound to aoy that I, like a noted Sootch divine, feel a little compassion even for a naughty mam under slitLllar ciicumstan- ces. My hon. friend, I think, will in future bear in mind tliat it is wise not to prophesy before he knows, and he undoubted!/ did in- dulge, two years ago, in various pro^becfes as to tlie results of the QoverroneDt policy, which have hardly lieen fulfilled by the actual Issue of events. Sir, I think the hon. gentle- man migiht learn, by this time, that it is folly to struggle with mandfeet facts. He does not' deny— «ny so far I do not find fault with him — ^the fact of manifest prqsperlty, the signs of which meet us on every side; and It is equally idle for him, wnder any pretext whatever, to demy the Blgnlflcance of the poli- tical gain which Canada has nwide within the laijt year under the guidance of my right hon. (rtesd, a;hd, and very good, so far as Lhisy go. I nev*r dv nied that, so far as they went, they wets good Indioatlons of prosperity; but I poiD\'ed out then, and I potnt out now, that there are other far more important indications of proiv. perlty which accompany these indicia to-day, and which were notably absent during th«j entire period of the administnation of the hon. gentleman and his friends. It is good, it is VQry good, to see our savings l>aink de- posits dxpand, to see our circulation expand, to see our exports and Imports expand ; but it is not so good when, as in his time, cer- tain of those indications were accompanied by a marked diminution In the vnlue of pro- perties over ain enormous airea of the coun- try, and, whnt I always esteemed a fa* more important matter, when they were accom- panied by an enormous exodus of the best elements of our country. But, Sir, were It tfh© case to-day, as it was then, that the peo- ple of Canada were flying from their country by tens of thousands, aye, and hundreds of thousands, I would not, as I do now, claim that these are proofs that a new era of prosjjwity had dawned upon ner. Sir, I am happy to tell the hon. gentleman that cir- cumstances hare changed; I am happy to be able to tell him — and I have not tha slightest doubt tlMrt the approaching census will ecoi- firm. In tito highest degree, all that we state here to-day — ^that, at long last, alter eight- een ySars of misgovemment, the tide has turned, ttmt Canadians are now remaining In their own country, and that we are not like- ly ai^ln to see the miserable spectacle which his own province ejdiiblted to the world, when, In 18»1, lit turned ont that the total growth of the gntit province of New Bruns- wick, with room and space enough to accom- modate twice or thrice its present popula- tion, was, I think, some 82, all told. Now, 34 I H rr I'M ' ?! pfc X wonkl uk tiM hon. g«ntlemaii, why he oan- iMt quletty accept the preeent altuatlon 7 I am not goirag to dl«pnte with him tlie (act that luck has been an our alae to a very oou- •ldanal)l« exteut (lurtitg the la»t year or two. I remember the time w*hen time* were not ho proaperoua tor th« Liberal party; i remember the times when none were more forward than the iKMi. gentleman who sits Immediately op- poalte to me (8lr Charles Tupper) In denounc- ing tli« Liberal party because of a world-wide 'lepretwtuu, which affected all the other ooun- trtes with which we had any acqualntaaioe or knowledge, luflnltiely more thac It did Canada. But what I more particularly wish to call the attention of the House to Is the new role of economist In which my hon. friend appears. He Is very grievously alarmed nt the extravagance which distinguishes the pre- sent Administration, and, very early In hin speech, I perceived that be made a very spec- ial charge against us, that we had added 91,400,000 to his last year's expenditure, and that. In this identical year, we were about to add fl,800,000 to bis last year's expenditure. Now, Sir, I like to see an hon- est statement made, particularly by an hon. gentleman In his position ; 1 like to see an honest statement made of what the actual comparison should be between his last year's expenditure, and our expenditure for the present time, and I think, when I get through with the matter, the House will be convinced of this one thing, that, whatever other merits the hon. gentleman may claim for himself, that of making an honest state- ment of the actual state of affairs in the last three or four years, is one to which he can lay very little claim. I believe It is quite true, that the hon. gentleman, in the year 1896, had gone out of office with an ex- penditure of 9S7,000,000, in round numbers. But it is not true, that the hon. gentleman had effected any permanent saving or reduc- tion on the expenditure of the preceding year, which for 1895 amounted to $38,200;- WO, in round numbers. Sir, I hope my hon. friends will bear tbls fact in mind ; I hope my hon. friends will take care, whenever appeal Is made to the last year ot the hon. gentleman's expenditure, to call the atten- tion of their audience to the fact that, if ever there was a case of colossal cooking, it was the cooking that was practiced by that hon. gentleman for obvloijs party reasons in the year 1896. He made no permanent sav- ing, be made no genuine reduction of the public expenditure. What he did was to throw over a million or more of expenditure properly belonging to that year, 1896, on to the shoulders of the year 1897. He did it for obyjous party purpose ; he did it, fore- seeing that, !n view of the perilous position in whieb the nest of traitors found them- se!-?ss, the country was extremely likely to exp^«m, Aft. QDfBToarable opinion of men who did not respect the obligations imposed upon public men of holding up i high stand- ard of public faith. He took all the care he could, so to arrange his accounts that he might appear to make a reduction, no mat- ter at what cost or at what risk of demoral- ising the public service. I'be methods he adopted were mainly these two : He totally neglected to call out the militia and give them any exercise In the various camps, thereby rendering almost the whole of the expenditure for the year for militia purposes absolutely useless ; and in the case of pub- lic works, in like manner, he deliberately cut down the necessary expenditure, with the effect, as my hon. friend can show him, of Involving for the Hucceeding year a great deal of additional and unnecessary expendi- ture, by reas(m of the parsimony — no, 1 can- not call it by so honourable a term, but by reason of the most improper reductions which he made in the service of that year. What would any railway company, having a similar Income, say of a manager who came forward and claimed that he had made a reduction of $1,400,000 in expenses for a particulex year, when It was shown in the preceding year he bad spent almost precisely the same sum that was required to be expended for the succeeding year, and when, what is more, his own estimates, nomin my bands, show distinctly that so fai^rom effecting any permanent reduction, he contemplated in his first original estimate an expenditure of $88,859,000 for 1897. Sir, I say the hon. gentleman has no right what- ever to come before this House and con- tend that the expenditure actually Incurred in 1893 was in any shape or form a true proof of the extent to which he had re- duced the expenditure. His real year with which comparison should be made is either the actual ascertained expenditure of 1895, which amounted ta $88,200,000; or his own original Estimates, 1 will not charge him now with the Supplementary Estimates for that year, for the yiar 1896-97, which I have under my hand. And If the boa. gentleman wants to make comparisqns with the Estimates now submitted by my hon. friend the Finance Mlmlster; I am porepared to show him, and 1 shall be prepared to show this House after six o'clock, that for the Identical services for which that hon. gentleman demanded $88,359,000, iny hon. friend is asking less than $88,000,000. All the rest and excess I propose to show the House, Is incurred for services and for pur- poses which will probably return into the treaaary quite as much as we take out of it, but for which there was no shadow of equi- valent in the Bstlmates brought diown by that hon. gentleman. As It will take a little time to go Into that comparison, and it is hardly worth while to repeat it after recess, I shall be obliged jf you, Mv^ Speaker will call it six o'eloek. S5 itlmate Sir, what- con- jcurred true ad re- wlth olther 1896, Is own him 68 for hlch I hoH. IS with bon. ipared ed to I at for t hon. r hon. All the pur- ito the o! It, equl- rn by llttlfr Id It iB reeeu, will y It balng 8tx o'eloek, th« Hpe«k*r left tb« CMOr. AFTER RECESS. The MINlSTEai OF TRADE AND COM- MERCE. Mr. Speaker, when the U6\i»t roM, I bad been calling attention to the ■tatemeut luade by the hon. member tor York (Mr. Foster), and on which, as the House will have ooaerved, a very largo portion of hia whule speech depended,, that the present Government had beeu guilty, as compared with himself and his {ellow-Mlnisters, of very great extravagance in the actual ex- penditures and Estimates tor the years 1807, 1808 and 18U0 ; and the hou. gentleman, as the House will remember, based that state- ment on tne fact that be bad succeeded, as he stated, In reducing the expenditure tor oonBolldated fund account to 987,000,000 lv)r the year 18B6. Sir, If that reduction bad been a genuine, bona fide reduction, if it bad been one which the hon. gentleman .or his friends beside him bad the timallest gtound tor stating was a permanent reduction, I would have given him credit for it, and I would have felt that the present Oovemment were called upon to enter Into a very minute explanation of the causes which bad com- pelled them to increase that sum. But when we examine the facts, we find a very re- able state of things. We find that in 1896, when the bon. gentleman had no particular reaaon for in any way taking action so as to specially adjust his accounts, he expend- ed f38,13'->,000. We find tnat for the suc- ceeding year, 1897, In the first Estimate brought dov7T by that hon. gentleman, and I need not tell the House, for the matter was explained to hon. members time and again, that the hon. gentleman had actually under consideration Supplementary Estimates which would have Involved an additional charge of several millions — we ttnd that the hon. gentleman brought down In his first and primary Estimate, charged under Con- solidated Fund for the year 1897, no less than 988,859,000. Under these circumstan- ces, I am Justified in stating to the House and stating to the country that the expendi- ture of 1896 was purely illusive, that it was not a genuine substantial reduction, but it was, as I have already stated, a deliberate case of cooking the accounts by causing large amounts .vhlch belonged properly to 1896 to be transferred for political purposes and made a ebar^e on the succeeding years, notably In regard to two large items, mili- tia and public works. The House will recol- lect the hon. gbntteman stated that In 1897 we expended #1,400,000 more than he did during the last year of b!s administration; tVM In 1898, the present year, we propose to expond $1,800,000 more than he expended in his last year; that tor 189V we nropese to expend $2,500,000 more than he expended in 1896. Sir, I pro|>o«6 to show to the Hovae that the actual expenditure made by the Fi- nance Minister for 1897 was somewhal: laM, not much, than the first Estimate tor that 7«ar laid on the Table of the House by th« bon. member tor York. I propose to show the House that, deducting certain exoendi- tures for which there Is no counterpart, the expenditure of the present year would bar^- ly equal the sum that he demanded lor the services in 1807; and I further propose to show the House that for the services of 1899, the Estimates of which we are now discussing, the Finance Minister proposes for the selfsame services tor which the hon. member for York estimated ho would require fJW, 859,000, to ask 137,060,000. The re- mainder, as I will show to the House, is tor services tor which we may expect to receive a corresponding amount to put Into the pub- lic treasury, and which had no counterpart whatever In 1897. The way to Judge of the comparative economy of the two Govern- ments Is to Judge of the charges for the self- same series of services. II the Government have done wrong in askl/ig for the additional amount, let them be Judged on these addi- tional amounts and let the House tak" Jnto accorunt the fact I have alluded to, l -JmIt, that with respect to these additional sums they have good grounds for believing the country will receive a return. I will take, in the first tastance, and after that I propose to go through the items in some little detail [ will take in the first in- stance the demands made by l-v hon. friend (Mr. Fielding) tor 1899, and t»ie demands made by the hon. member for York (Mr. Fos- ter) In 1897. The House will remember that my hon. friend (Mr. Fielding) is now asking for 189,126,000, In round numbers, for the services of 1899. Ic that 139,125,000 are included these three Items: First, for the rental of the Intercolonial road into Mont- real, 1210,000, for which no corresponding sum whatever la to be found amongst the charges for 1897 ; next, a sum of $896,000 tor the services of the Yukon district, for which, I need not say, not one farthing is to be found of a corresponding character In the exjiendlture for 18fi7 as proposed by the hon. member for York; lastly, tor the run- ning expenses of th» Intercolonial Railway as extendJ^d Into Montreal, a further sum of $560,000 tcv which there Is no correspond- ing entry, making a sum total of $1,166,000 tor which we expect to receive a return. Sir CHARLES TUP PER. How much did the hon. gentleman (Sir Richard Cartwrlght)-- say was for the extension of the Intercol- onla? mto Montreal ? The MINISTER OP TRADE AND COM- MERCE. FJve hundred and sixty thousand dollars «xtra is allowed (or the expenses of that, including what is known na the BruBQ- mond County Branch. Now it hon. g»ntle- m«n opposita will do me the favour to d»- daet $1,166,000 from 989,135.000 they will 36 •«e that after taking out these extra sami there remains $37,959,000, being the sum re- quired by my bon. friend (Mr. Fielding) for the selfsame identical services for which the hon. member tor York (Mr. Foster) asked 188,858,000 in 1896-97. Therefore, my Lon. friend (Mr. Fielding) proposes to de- fray the expenses of the country, so tar as regards these services, tor $400,000 less than the hon. member for York thought was ne- cessary two years ago. It is worth while remembering also thac the country has not stood still 'during the last two years, that the population has in- creased very considerably, more rapidly, than it did during the period the hon. mem- ber tor York was administering the Govern- ment. I believe, from all the evidence which has come to our hands; from the evidence as to the increased immigration; from the evi- dence as to the diminished exodus, which I regard as even of more Importance; I be- lieve that the actual fact of the case is, that tor the selfsame services, with 200,000 peo- ple more In 1899 than in 1896-97, my hon. friend (Mr. Fielding), Is asking for $400,000 a year less. I again call the attention of the House to the fact that there is good rea- son for believing that the whole, or at any rate by far the greater part of that $1,166,- 000 of extra expenditure, will be repaid Into the treasury of this country in the shape of increased receipts from the Intercolonial Railway, and in the shape of increased re- ceipts which we are even now receiving from the Yukon territory. But, Sir, It is always well in these cases to go a little Into detail. I have before me the Estimates laid >n the Table of the House by the hon. member for York' (Mr. Foster) for 1896-97, and htre I may observe that doubtloss owing to » clerical error the hon. gentlemiin (Mr. Foster) omitted a fixed charge of $50,000 for a certain mall service under the heading of sums authorized by statute. The actual amount he demanded therefore was $38,858,000, and not $88,- 808,000 as is Inaccurately put down. If the House will take the trouble to turn to the Estimates tor 1899, and will compare them, step by step, as far as may be with the Estimates laid on the' Table by the boo. gentleman (Mr. Foster) In 1896, they will see how far he (Mr. Foster) is justified in as- serting that our administration of the coun- try is inferior in pAlnt of economy to the ad- ministration which be was prepared to give us had he been returned to oflSce In, 1896. Take the first Item In the Estimates, 1 find that the hon. the Minister of Fi- nance asks for charge of public debt, 9n- cludSng sinking ton)!, ft sum of $12,8:5.<),000: and observe that our economicai ifieiiu iTom York (Mr. Foster) two years ago, asked tor that same service $12,982,000. being a diff*»r~ enc« of $180,000 on thai item In favour of tb« present MlBlfftry. I obserre that on charges ot management be asked for $165,- 000, and my hon. friend proposes to be con- tent with $152,v.00. In the item ot civil government — that much disputed item — we ask for $1,418,000, and my hon. friend from York (Mr. Foster), two years ago, thought it was necessary to demand $1,449,000. I note that in the administration of Justice there is a small increase. Certain additional Judges haYe been demanded hy the several provinces, and the expense of the adminlstia^ tlon of Justice is therefore, not by any act ot our own but by the act of theee legislatures. Increased $14,000. The police service Is the some in both years. Now I come to another point, which will perhaps contrast, as well as any other our relative economy. We de- mand for the service of the penitentiaries $417,000 lor the year ending July, 1899. The hon. gentleman. In 1896-97, demanded $481,- 000 tor the some service. We demand tor the services of the' legislatures $705,000, and 1 observe that the hon. gentleman seems to have demanded $754,000. For arts, agricul- ture and statistics — and to this item 1 call the special attention of the House—we de- mand a much larger sum than my hon. friend did. We demajid $822,000, but with respect to that item I have to say this. If the hon. gentleman from York (Mr. Foster), or any other of them, will choose to accept the gage which I have thrown down, and will choose to bold that the sums we are now appropriating for cold storage and tor the Development ot agricultural pursuits In varl- o u ? .i>« <;';d I am not condemning him for It, L.at the hon. gentleman in 1897 thoiight that $1,478,000 was the least that he could get along with, which shows a considerable difference In favour of the praaent Government, I observe that on public works we demanr' $1,650,000, and the late Government demanded $1,576,- 000, being an Increase on our part; and I have no douht my hon. friend beside rae (Mr. i^arte) will be perfectly able to give an excellent explanation of the reasons which require this vote. Now, a very large propor- tion of tHe remainder consists of what are known as fixed charges — charges for collec- tion of revenue. I shall not weary the Housv by going through those in detail, but I re- \.'^<:it this fact, that for the identical class of services for which we ask a little less than $38,000,000, the hon. gentleman thought it necessary, three years ago, on a population of nesriy oae- expendi- ture to that point. They are to be Judged by thMin* tactual eocpemdiituire im a yeifur whm ithej bad no temptation to curtail the expendi- ture Improperly ; they are to be Judged by the estimates they themselves brought down for the service of 1896-97. I turn now from that to another important portion of the hon. gentleman's speech, ^nd here I confess I was ra/ther dlsckppoinited at the mode in which he handled the subject. He took a very great deal of exception to the reduc- tion made by my hon. friend beside me in the rate of Inteoreet payable on Gk>veirinimen!t savlifj^ bank deposits. That is a question on which there is a very considerable deal to be said on both sides, and I hoped that a man of his experience and occupying his po- sition, and who himself had occasion to re- duce the interest on savings bank deposits, would have put the House In full possession of the actual ritate of the case, and have given something like a fair resume of the true position and of the causes which oper- ated In inducing my hon. friend to make this somewhat large reduction in the rate of in- terest. The hon. gentleman spent a great deal of time In denouncing the' Government because, as he said, we were reducing the rate at the expense of the small savers. He must have had in his possession or have had access to certain facts respecting the savings banks, which. I myself caused to be brought down in a return to this House, some three or four years ago, and I may say here that the facts to-day are substantially as they Were then, or. If anything, rather bear out our pretension more to-day than they did then. To listen to the hon. gentle- man one would suppose that the whole f50,~ 000,000 now Invested in the Government savtnga banks were held by small saveini,. poor people to whom It is a matter of very great moment indeed that they should re- ceive a nuall additional return; aod the hon. gentleman waxed warm and eloqoeut In de- picting the injury to the cause of thrift which would be Inflicted If we disturbed the rate of Interest. It may be interesting to the House to know that at present, of those f50,000,000 on deposit In the Government savings banks, something like two-thirds of the whole are held by rather less than 'one- sixth of the depositors. It may be Interest- ing to the House to know that In 1894 something like f 25, 300, 000 of the then de- posits, which amounted to about forty mill- ion dollars were held by *J6,000 depositors, being as nearly as may be an average of one thousand dollars per head. Mow, I do not think that men who are able, on an average, to deposit a thousand dollars per head, can be regarded as people deserving the paternal care of this Government. For the smaller depositors a great deal more may be said, but the smaller depositors at that time aver- aged something like flOO apiece, and no more. The larger depositors, as I have stated, those of f500 and upwards, had an average of f 1,000; the smaller depositors had an average of very little over f 100. I have no doubt that, if it were possible tor my hon. friend to have done so, he would have been very glad Indeed, to have divided this matter, and very glad indeed to have so aoTianged It thart;^ the small diepioeltans, if possible, should Bave received a larger in- dulgence at the hands oi the Government than he thought was fairly due to the per- sons who held the greater part of these deposits. But here again I have a little to complain of with regard to the hon. member for York. As a Finance Minister of some years' standing, he knew perfectly ■y^ell when he staited that we were paying 2% per ceuit to money-lenders In Europe and only 2'Vi to the depositors of this country, and conse- quently that the depositors were docked % of 1 per cent., that he omitted the material fact that the people of Canada have to con- trlbufe a considerable additional sum for the management of those savings banks. It Is not the truth to sfty that we went out of otir way to give 2% per cent, to English monegr- lenders, all expenses paid, while we reduced the rate to these people to 2% per cent., be- cause, as a matter of fact, the actual cost of management, raises the cost to us of the money wo borrow of these people to 2%, at any rate to 2% per cent.; But there are other considerations which the hon. gentleman I think should. In all Justice, have preisented to the House In considering this disputed q\xw~ tlon. I think he ought to have told the House, what Is obvious to every man of ex- perience, that you cannot fairly compare the rate of interest which is obtained by parties who are ontitied to withdraw their money at an hour's notice, or a few days' notice, with the rate of interest obtainable on loans having » period of years to run. Which of UB, as a business man, would, if he were a i 5Baa 38 buslnegfl man, pay the game interest on a sum withdrawable at call as for money wbich was allowed to remain In his hands tor fifty years ? That is a point, I think, that the hon. gentleman ought to have con- sidered well before he chose to make use of his position to stir up the minds of the peo- ple against the Government for a policy which, as I shall presently show, is likely to result in advantage to a large part of the community. More than that, the hon. gen- tleman knows perfectly well, and If he does not, there is no banker of standing but could have explained the matter to him, that in the last resort, the rate of interest all through this country depended upon the in- terest paid by the banks and the Government tor money on call. That is so plain a pro- position that I am astonished that the hon. gentleinan should have overlooked it. What follows ? Why, this follows — tnat if you de- sire to see the interest on the farmers' mort- gages lowered, if you wish to see the inter- est on money usr'' for manufactures and by others engaged i." variou^ enterprises for the development of this country low- ered, you must consent to a lowering of the rate of interest on deposits. Unfortunately, tied up as we are, in- volved as our affairs are, it is not pos- sible for the banks which control the larger part of the deposiis in Canada, to reduce the rate of interest on their deposits unless the Government will do so loo. I point that out to show tUot tliore is more than one side to this question. Every man here knows from his own experience that the r-tto of interest on good security has fallen extremely in Can- ada within the last ten or twelve years. It is only a few months ago that It was my duty to make inquiries, on behalf of certain parties for whom I am trustee, of certain triurte societies in Toronto to know what rates of interest they would guarantee, and all I could obtain was a statement that if the money was left in their hands for a term of years, they would guarantee 4 per cent. 1 need not tell this House that municipal cor- porations and almost all corporations of go millions less than In 1887 on a population half a million smaller. But we made up fwp it in another direction, for I see that In 1887 they Imported 45 mUUon dollars ^orth ol goods from the UnUwl States ; In 1888 they Imported 49 miOIona ; In 1890, 50 millions ; In 1891, 52 millions ; In 1898, 58 mllUona ; In 1894, 58 millions ; In 1895, 54 millions ; In 1896, 58 millions, and In 1897 they to- pointed 61 million dollars worth. While they diminished their Imports from Great Britain by 15 million dollars, they Increased their Imports from the United States by IS millions in the same period of time. Now, It may be true, that the steps which have been taken to Increase our trade with Great Britain may not have as swift an effect as we desire ; still, there are reasons for it. During the period of eighteen years In which these hon. gentlemen have worked their wicked win, th^ have reduced our lmp<+Ft« from Great Britain to the ftgures that I have read to the House, and we cannot be expect- ed to rerers* all that In an afternoon ; but 1 have very little doubt that, when the next decade occurs, and when my hon. frlend« \m this side — where I have no doubt they wtll ^111 be — ^have the pleasure of dllatlBg on those figures to an a,tt©ntlv9 House, they will be able to show that the current of trade has been reversed, and that they will then be Importing a very much larger quaittlty of goods from Great Brltal>. than ever before. Now, I know that percentages ir* odious, I 1 ^ I ■ I..IIII iMIil— wawM 40 know they are very often unfair, and we taave had experience of that time and again. But I will Just call the attention of those economists to two or three patent facts pretty well known in history. The Liberal- Uonse^vatlTe econcHnists became the custo- dians of the affairs of this country in 1867. In 187S, for reasons which I will not now stop to particularize, they were obliged to devote their talents to some other occupa- tion. In the Interval, however, thay had added 11 million dollars a year to the an- nual expenditure of Canada. In 1873, Mr. Mackenzie assumed the rdins of power, and in 1878 Mr. Mackenzie laid them down. He entered office with an expenditure of f28,- 318,000, and he left It with an »jxpenditure of *28,519,000 or a difference of $200,000. Those hon. gentlemen during eighteen years exercised their own will and pleasure. They began with an expenditure of $28,500,000, and left off, as 1 have shown, with an esti- mated expe.iditure of $38,500,000, an actual expenditure in 1895 of $38,183,000. I can- not accept their statement for 1896, for the obvious reason I have given. But, Sir, it follows that the increased expenditure in those eighteen years amounted, giving them the most liberal construction possible, to close on $14,000,000. Now, $14,000,000 would represent interest on the sum of $560,000,000, and this may be taken as the sum their administration during eighteen years has cost the country, estimating It by a reasonable and fair standard. I will not insist, however, too much on that point, be- cause there are some little reductions that might be made, but nevertheless substanti- ally it Is correct. The hon. grentleman entered on another subject as to which I desire to say a word or two, though I do not wish to weary the House by enlarging too much on matters Alr^ndy pretty well thrashed out and which no doubt my hon. friends beside me will take up In more detail. The hon. member Jor York enlarged extremely on the fact, that acting In conformity with the conclu- sion arrived at by the British Government, we were obliged to abandon our original and more liberal treatment of nations that extended liberal terms to us. I may be a heretic and very unorthodox, but I have to say, that I do not regard thd opinion of the British law bfficfera as conclusive. They have the power, I admit, and they are able to en- force their views, and to decide what the favoured-nation clause shall mean ; but I hold that the opinion of the British law officers JOs vastly different from an opinion givem by a Brltteh en^r't o, Igftj diegree. T)i«y are the advisers of the OuvemmPTit, and th«y advlflft the Government substaniially on th* Ikie of the Qovwornmeint's policy. It may be very true that ft is not on the whole In- consistent with the policy of Her Majesty's Oovemment to stand by the mo«t-fAvoured- natlon clause, for very obvious reasons; but J. am far from being convinced, and it will require much better argfuments than I have heard on that side or I have read In any of tihe despatohes trom Hetr Majcterty's Gov- ernmeaT given by the Imperial officers that we are not right in maintaining, as I main- tain; Ihat a reciprocity treaty has nothing whatever to do with the most-favoured-na- tion cl'iuse. A reciprocity treaty is In the nature of a bargain between two nations, under wblch we give and obtain substantial considerations ; while I maintain that the favoured-nation clause, rightly and properly construed, means that nations having the right to the favoured-nation clause should grant similar terms to those nations from which they expect to obtain special privi- leges. That is the new world contention as opposed to the old world contention, and I am not in the least degn*ee disposed to aban- doin it, holding it as being the more logical, equitable and fair construction. We are not, however, an Independent nation, but are de- pendent on the British ESnpIre, and bound therefore In matters of this kind to obey the directions we receive from the home authori- ties ; and when they tell us that for reasons of state and for reasons of policy they are obliged to maintain this particular construc- tion as to the most-favoured-natlon clause, we have no alternative but to obey them and abandon otir better and more generous con- tention and accept the system as we now have it. But it was a very strong testimony to the substantial soundness of our view that while the British Government Insisted, as I have said, for good reasons of state policy to their own particular construction a^ to the favoared-natlon clause, they at the same time did for the present Government what they had entirely declined to do on various occasions for previous governments —they denounced the German aud Belgian treaties which prevaii'ed oi^* exicndlng a preference to British dominions. I say that that, rightly understood, was not only in itself a great and positive gain, but it was recognizing in such a manner as had not hitherto been recognized, the weight and importance which Canada has now at- tained in the councils of tJie Empire. Sir," the hon. member for York, and I re- grret he is not able to be here to-night, was good enough to twit us with having turned our cheek to the United States and getting nothing for it. I have not In the allghteet degree changed my opinion as to the enor- mous value and ImpoK-ance to both coun- tries of extended trade relations with the United States, and 1 shall require very mnch beittea- rtbtmma ti hao I have hitherto hjeiard to Indue* me to abandon my position In thAt »^ard. But it takes two to make a bar- gain, and when the United gtates did not see fit to trade with "■?, ft became our busi- ness ^o do the best could for ourselves bu; an 41 and eatend our 'tonade wttfa the miotbar conm- try and In otber directions. That w« hare done, and If our action, as the hoa. gentle- man stated, Is to be construed as turning the other cheek to the smiter, >t is a ne# translation of the text to which the hon. flpentlemian referred. When the United States would not trade with us, we showed that country that while not disposed to retaliate on them in any way or to Injure ourselves in order to inflict small injury on some por- tion of* their population, at the same time we were meksters of our destiny ; that the gates were ours to open and to close; that we open them to the country that deals lib- erally with us and keep them .closed to the country which refuses to trade with nn, which Is goo^ oolicy, good business and good common sense. Wbat the hon. gentleman may have meant by his allusion to those po- litical methods which he imputed to my hon. friend beside me, to that malignant and malevolent action of holding all manufactur- ers in subjection, I do not know. He pro- bably Is better acquainted with the effective use of the poiftlcal methods he alluded to for political purposes than we can pretend to be. We are his disciples in that matter, and we should be glad to receive from him or the hon. gentleman opposite (Sir CharleT Tup- per) any useful instruction he may choose to communicate, for no doubt those hon. gen- tlemen are perfectly well versed in the art of applying those political methods to recalci- trant manufacturers under particular circum- atcmces.s With respect to the general accusation brought by the hon. member for Vork, that the QoT^mment have not been able to eco- nomise to the extent they desired, and that certain of the hopes and expectations Which weire enteontaimed by certain ot my colleagues as to the extent f)f the saving that could be made, have not been verified, I have to say, so fair t j those hon. geoftteni«n are concerned, It practically amounts to this, that they have succeeded, In doing a great deal more mischief and doing it more per- manently than we had supposed possible. It is not so easy to undo the evil effects of their administration as some of my more sanguine friends would suppose. I call attention to the fact, that in all the attacks I made on hon. gentlemen opposite when I was on the Opposition benches, I was careful, knowing there wer« serious difllcultles In the way, while I pointed out that we had an annual expenditure which I thought excessive and disproportionate to our resources, my chief burden of complaint was that the tlienrt Gov- ernment had increased the permanent cfaai^res out of proportion to the revemie and it would be exceedingly difficult . to re- charges. I am in the judgment of the House, as my hon. friend opposite wouM say, as to whether that wwi not on all occasions the burden of my attacks. It la my opinion still. The amount pf our capital and fixed charges Is enormously ont of proportion to our Income. If hon. gentleman wlirgo care- fully over the present list of expenditures they will see that, after deducting fixed charges, which are wholly and entirely apart from collection of revenue and which amounts to a sum not far short of $20,000,- 000 a ymx In the items authorized by the statute, the amount left to cut and carve upo^ is exceedingly small. Deducting fl9,- 000,000 and adding 111,000,000 required for post office, railways, Inland revenue and cus- toms and other matters, over which the Gov- ernment has extremely little prtictlcal con- trol from the nature of the case, deducting these sums from a total amount of $38,000,- 000 it will be found tliat there are not more than $7,000,000 or $8,000,000 in the form of expenditures under direct control of the Government, and no Inconsiderable portion of this is devoted to expenditure for Indians, which la In the nature of treaty obligations, alttough mot granted by statute. While not desiring to palliate any extravagance, if ex- travagance is committed, or withdrawing from the statement I have made that the amount of expemdlture Is very lai^ In a country like ours, 1 point that out, not at all desiring to palliate any extravagance, if extravagance has been coiiiimitted; not as at all withdirawlng from the etatememt I have often medie, that tihe amoiunt of expemddture is very heavy for a country like oursTHbut as pointing out that the great fanlt which the people of Canada are entitled to complain of is, that pemnainieinft dhairges to eiuch am emor^ mous extent as I have indicated were inflict- ed upon them. These charges were not In- flicted by the Liberate; they were inflicted against our advice and against our protest, and ft Is not fair to saor at this moment, that if on coming into ofilce we found It more dlflScnlt to reduce these than we had sup- posed, therefore, we are to be held respon- sible — unless hon. gentlemen can show that the items which we are now demanding are excessive in amount. It does not He in the moutii of hon. gentlemen opposite to make that charge, for as I have shown, we are actually asking less for the present services of the country with a considerably Increased population, than they themselves proposed to ask two years ago. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Foster) was good enough to lay claim to all the results of the year 1896-97 as pro- l>er!y belonging to tfte policy of- the late Con- servative Government; and amongst otber things he claimed that there had been .an la- crease of $17,000,000 In our exports, the credit of which was due to the policy of the Llboral-Conaervatlve party. Well, be ft so for argwroent's sake. I find that in the first six months of this current year— to which be (Mr. Foster) will hardly ventwre to make claim-— in the first six months which ended on the Slst of December, 1897, I find that we exported of home products a eum totial of ninety milliom add, being an increase of 4> IS" I I k If w i ■1 I 'i i i 1 ■ j ' i i / ! t f36,000,000 over the exports o! 18»«. Al- though I do not preitextd to say that that la wholly and entirely due to the feeling of cun- fidence, and the general teeling of rest and stability which has ensued on the e^pulalou of hon. gentleman opposite from power and the in«tallntlon of the present Miwletry; It is at least good evidence that during our term o( office the increase in the wealth o< the people of Canada, which this evidences, hae gone '^" far faster than it did before. The House will do well to recollect that there are new eoui-ces of wealth opening before us; the House wf.ll do well to recollect that there is every rep.aon to believe that our popula- tion is decidedly on the increase, and that in a very considerable number of industries which in former times we did not reckon up- on much — in all those connected with mines and minerals; in the wonderful developm«nt which appears likely to await the pulp and paper industry and in several others wholly apart from our staple agricultural indus- tries, there is Buct promise of increased pros- perity and permanence, that we h^ve tali reason to believe that this extraordinary de- velopment is not likely to be merely ephe- meral Out will remain for a number of yeiars. It is plain that Canada is entering on a new era of prosperity^ and outside of hoc. gen- tlemen opposite very few Indeed will l^e found to question that the political position of OajnadA has liklaiwlse improved eauwrnouB- ly. Sir, we have shown that while the Lib- eral party weire nort as focxd of talking kxyal- ty as tion. geotlemeo opposite used to be; we have BJQown now Liberal acts can outweight Conservative promises an* professions a thousand tithes over. We have set an ex- ample to the Empire^ and if we have not done It in a huxterhig spirit, if we have not endeavoured to obtain pound for pound amd cent for cent, we have at any rate shown that When we were generously treated, we were willing to the best of our ability to treat our mother country generously In re- turn. I grant lUait we have not done all that some of US had noped to do. It kf not poeslbl* — the luan. gemtlcmaia (Mr. FVwtlHP) to the contrary notwithstanding— ^to undo In one single year, or ev«n in two years, all that the Conservatives succeeded In doing during a period of eighteen years. If in a eorrespondlng period we bare no better re- cord to show than they, I would be willing for one to submit to the severest censure and punishment which can be Inflicted upon as, though probably by that time, it will not much concera either myself or my bon. frtemd (Sir OhnrieS Tapper) opposite. The truth is that we have found ourselves la the no«ltfnTi of being helm to a deeply raortjraffed estate. There are two ways In which "we can g&i out of that awkward pnaitloti. We can reduce the rate of Interetrt, and we ar& doing it In wpltft of th* remonstrance of hoii. gentlemen opposite, or we can do the other thing; we can improve and develop the productiveness of our estate. We can < — and I think we will be able to in a short period of tlm»— we can Increase the popu- lation of Canada to such an extent that the same results will be attained as if we had been able to cut down the expenditure by even as many millions as we had hoped in our fondieert expeotetloius. We may not be able to reduce the expenses of the service, but we can get a bertter service. In all these ways we c^n increase and Improve the efficiency of the Grovernmeot of Canada. This we desire to do; this we hope to do. I think. Sir, that In that way. In all pro- bability the real safety and the real advan- tage which Canada is likely to derive from the preoent period of prosperity is likely to remain with us. I cannot' foi^ear saying one thing — and I think I am Justified in saying It — t verily believe that if, eighteen years ago the people of Canada had been content to go on under the reasonable re- venue tariff they then enjoyed, the manufac- turers of Canada as a whole for wboete bene- fit these enormous additional taxes were Im- posed, would have been infinitely better off than they are to-day. Their progress I be- lieve would have been aa great; I am certain it would have been Infinitely sollder and more permanent, and it would not have been attended with the disadvantagee and Incon- veniences which have flowed from tno sys- tem then adopted. I do not want to dwell upon these themes too long, 'but I do say — and I think I would obtain a pretty univer- sal verdict from these gentlemen when I say It— that on the whole and all things consid- ered a very grrave error was committed when Canada tunied her back on the well-known flscal policy of Great Britain and took up with a system of protection, which was af- ter all but th castt-off rags of Amerloanlsm. It may be ♦' ai w* havn been to blame In some respectj; It m-ay be that we have not been able to live wa In all respects to the ex- pectations our frfdnds formed, but I repeat that if It can be (*«^wn that in the Estimates ,we ewbOilt there is any undue eitravagance, any undue expenditure that cannot be rea- son«ibly defended, we will not be afraid or ashamed to retrace our steps If good cause be shown. But I do protest that It is not right or fair or reasonable for gentlemen op- posite, who laid burdens upon us which we are now endeavouring to liquidate, to com- plain of our course. With respect to the charge that we hare Increased the capital ac- count, I may say that with one excfiptlMi all the Increased charges on capital accmmt have accrued from oblf^rations contractec by the late Govrmment. All we have done has been as businesH men to hurry forward such enterprises as the completion of the canals, bt ord&f»i-' 3Knt loyal to the eonntvy and k>y«l to one acother. bAing In nowep— ^bftt vsry fact, I say, stimulated the confidence »of the p«opI« of this country. Who doubts It ? How eould buBlTmss anjoy any stimulus when, in the very legislature of the nation, the men directing its affairs were at daggers drawn ? How could they have contldence that the affairs of the country would be carried on satisfactorily when they saw, at a critical time in this country's history, at a time when the peaceful relations that had ex- isted so long between the motherland and « the neighbouring land were actually en- dangered, bow could they have confidence on an occasion like that, when they saw the gentlemen entrusted with the reins of Government bringing on a crisis, seeing the Minister of MlMtla and Defence, who might have been called upon at any moment to marshal his troops and send them out, gone out on If rike, leaving that important de- partment without any head ? How could they have confldemce when they »aw the Min- ister of Railways and Canals, whose ser- vices might have been In demand at amy moment to provide facilities for transporta- tion, also out on strike, and that depart- ment without a head ? How could they have confidence when they saw 'he Minister of Finance also out on strike avlng the flnamces of the couMtry withoui any control at a time when funds might be needed ? They saw these gentlemen divided among themneilves, a Government whose membera were in open war with each other upon the floors of this Chamber. Scenes like that will go down to history, and form a black page in the othemwiae bright annate of *hlfl coun- try of ours. I say that when a Government such as that waok when I was dealing altogether with that pot&t, if I had embodied more than that which operated under the law as It stood on the Statute-book last year. The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. That Is where I wtiolly differ with the bon. gentle- man. He is dealing with the tariff which this Parllameat enacted last session, and, under the operation of that tariff, a 36 per cent reduction was made In the preferential scnedule after a certain date. That was as mudh part of tIhe tariff as the 12% per oemt reduction; It is the same tariff to- expect be would receive 12% per cent reduction. To-day, with a5 pw cent off on all theM leading ataple Imports into thi* country, instead of there being a reduc- tion of 28 per ceait., It la less than 12% per omt, becauae han. gemitlieTOen oppositts, be- fore they made the reduction, raised the taaiia 12 Vi p«rr caut, so that they have % of 1 per cent less than 12Vj per cemt in the propoaed reduction, which they were led to believe would be 26 per cent. That was the position. The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I am not taking exception to that part ol t^ hon. gemtlemian's speenb. Ou* of sixty ortlckB, he picked owt eight, with hie usual fairness — items on which our general tariff has been above the tariff of hon. gentlemen opposite; but, in commenting on thta, It must be con- sidered as one tariff and one law; there are not two laws, one providing for a r»- duction of 12% per cent, on the Ist August, 1898, and another providing for a reduction of 25 per cent, afterwards; one law was enacted, and the hon. gentleman is talking about the tariff law we passed. While my hon. friend the Finance Minister bad given both columns, the hon. gentleiaan quoteid only the 12% per cent reduction with respect to those eight items out of the sixty on which the reductkxn had taken place, and he deterrn'oedly i-efused to take what the Fi- nance Miini»ter had stated amd wbat was before his owti eyes, that when the 25 per «ent r'^ductioo was carried out, as it would be after let of July, the rate of duty would be materially below the tariff which hon. ge^'tleinen opposite had adopted. That ki the point to which we take exception In the hon. gentleman's statement. A great deal has been said by hon. gentle- men opposite in regard to the present Gov- ennaneait ad'optitag the National Policy. Thelif tone has changed. We had criticisms made last year by the late Finance Minister. In what direction were they ? He said that the preeent Oovennment had taken the Na- tlQoial Policy in some respects, and not to others. This year, the leader of the Opposi- tion said the Government have taken the National Policy In its eoaftlnety; nay, more, they haviB in all essential particulars added 5 per cent. What did the late Finance Min- ister tell us last yeai", in criticising our policy 7 He saw the woollen schenlule of Imports, of wMoh there are millions a year In value, and that It had been raised from 30 ,to 85 per cemt, ait all everats in ragard to some of its items; and he recognised the tact that England wtt« a toeen competitor In them linee,, amd we were ena«tlng a. law, 9 not tor a day, but a law wWcu we tlmngbt would be a great reduction. The hon. gentle- man knew then that in these items we had raised the general tariff 6 per cent.; but his criticism at that time was that tUie would not save the great woollen industries of the country. H« said, "Walt till you 25 per cent preferential tariff, or even your 12% per cent preferential tariff, comes Into effect, and you will viripe out the great woollen in- dustries of this country." They do not say so this year — why 7 Because the predictions they made have been falsified by the returns from the woollen mills in the country. What do the papers tell them 7 Mill after mill reopened aind running on full time, and other mills running overtime. We have heard nothing about the destruction of the wool- len industries on this occasion. Now, this Is a point which I want to have fully under- stood, because I believe there are people in the Llbeaial par.ty who think we have Mxt dome quite aa much, oir wlno have mot rcia- Used ho^ much this Ooveinim«at tea done in the way of tariff reform; and I will therefore ask your attention and tlie atten- tion of hon. gentlemen opposite to some tables which I have prepared in "reference to this point. I have had prepared « state- ment of the articles entered for consumption in the six monthci ending December 31st, in the years 1896 and 1897. In the on« six months tlie National Policy was in force; in the other six months the preferential tariff was in force to the extent of 12% peow the reductions that have been made in the duties on tiie arlicles which I eamnwrate^ Mr. SPROTJLE. But If the values are changcfd, it will spoil your calculation. The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I was about to refer to that myself. Hon. gen- tlemen will recogolse that where the arti- cles chfti^ce In value, and you ^hare a aum- ber of Items of specific duties, yon are not in a position to arrive at a corr^r^naigia^ i.f. - p iwim u thoM articles In which, «xeept In the ea«e of coal, the duties art ad valorem. Now, what are the (acta ? On bltnmlnoae coal, on the importattov^ for thoae viz months, the r»< dnctlon In duty has been 4 per cent. Cotton and maniitactureH of, was an item on which one hun. gentleman ftnld we had Increased the duty; but th«»e tables show that instead of an Increase imder the working of the new tariff, there has been a percentage re- duction, as compared with the old tariff, of 6 2-6ths per cent. On glass, there has been a reduction of 5 T-lOthn per cect. On hats and caps, there has been a reduc- tion of S 2-8 per cent. On Iron and steel and manufactures of, of which the Imports tor ittie six montius aj« meao-ly #6,000,000, there Is a percentage reduction of 14 per cent. On leMher, there Is a slight Increase, but so slight that I have not worked it out. On woollens and manufactures of, of wWcb thew have been ovw f4,000,000 of Ina- porta during the six motrths — another of the items in which hon. gentlemen said we had Increased the duty — Instead of an Increase there is a decrease of 4 2-5 per cent. These are the^'gr-eat leading articles on which hon, ^ gentlemen said we h^d raised the duties. Mr. WALLACE. Would dhe hon. gentto- man permit me to ask him a questiom which is pertinent ? Are these percentages of reduction percentages of the cost of the article or percentages of the duties ? The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Percent, ages of tne reductions of duty under tlw new tariff as compared with the duty under the old tariff. Mr. WALLACE. That is, supposing cot- ton manrufacituineB weire 80 per cent beitorei, they would be 28 3r5 per cent now — is that what we are to understand ? The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. As I pro- ceed with another table, you will see exact- ly the way I have worked It out, Mr. WALLACE. I think we are enfltled to ^.statement as to that right here. The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. You shall have It, If you posww your soul In patience a little. Now, I want to deal with a few (Mime Items. Wltihonl: desiring to be sec- tional or to recognise dlffeorent Intereets In the eommunlty, we do recogfnlse the fact stated hy the Finance MlnfBter that the greatest of all the Industrie* of this coun- try^ without belittling any other industry, is the great aigrlcnltural Industry of the country. We cannot look at the exports without that fact being lmpr««eed upon don that bear upon them. I am aware that in one or two or three articles, such as reap- ers and mowers and ploughs, hon. KentMiion opposite have sought to charge tlie Liberal party with having broken solemn pledges for a reduction of duties on these articles whsa they came Into power. Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear. The MINISTER. OF CUSTOMS. Hon. gentlemen say, " Hear, he^r." Whatever may have been the opinion of different mem- bers of t>arliaQient or difforent individuals throughout the country In reference to the reduction of taxation wii'eh they would like, I have this to say, that while ideas no doubt differ somewhat with regard to differ- ent articles and while there may be disap- pointments and while some people may have understood from something that may have been said that there might be a reduction or a wiping out of certain duties to which the hon. gentleman has alluded, I fall to find that any direct pledge was ever given, such as the hon. gentleman sought to make us believe was given, by any of the membeie of the Adminlstratlion. The hon. gentleman knows that the platf(Jrm of the Liberal party was adopted at the great Liberal conveai- tlon, and that In that platfohn we TIeclared for the lessening of the burdens upon the people and a return to a revenue tarlft. Mr. DATIN. I quoted the words of the Minister of Agriculture. The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I think, from my recollection of the words of the Minister of Agriculture, that he expressed the belle* that the dtttj on agricultural Im- plements was too high, as reggrds many of these articles, and he desired to see the duty reduced, but I do not think he declared that he would put reapers and mowers on the fi-ee list. Mr. DAVIN. Was the duty reduced then ? The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Mo, Dot the hon. gentleman wants to mflke out that the Mintster of Agriculture promised that these 'articles would go on the free list. Mr. DAVIN. I made that out, too, but now you use the word "reduced." The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Very well, let US' look Jtt thdS. I say there may have been an understandiing and there may have been dewlres on the part of different Individ- uals In this direction, and that, but I wish to point out how the Government had to view this queatlcm. When this qoestloh of reftpers ana taowers came up weicre us for eonaiderattoo, what did we find? Wij foufid tJMut tSieae a.rtlcl@g had been taxed 35 per eeirt. under the old tartfr, iuDd that hi 49 but well, have have Ilvtd- wUih h&d stion re vm W^ A 35 at hi 1894, the late OoTemment, departing froo Ita principle* and with the ulterior object in yjew o( fftraigthenlnij ittiell with the peo- ple, cut down the duty on thete to 20 per CHUt, while - ventlon of Its representatives assembled In this city, but you cajoot find anything of the kind to show what the policy of the Conservative party really is. They neiver ventured to tall their representa.'-.lvee to- getfaeir in convention, and I am forced there- fore to take as an avowal of their policy a declaration of It from the mouth of the one besit fitted to gi^e f expression, namely, the Finance Minister, when he Introduced his tariff in 1894. You will find it In the "Hansard" of 1894, vol. 1, page 207 : "I wlsb to state here that the Government " of to-day, and the party which supports " tfcft Government of to-day, take their stand " squarely and firmly upon the embodiment " and upon the p««ervatloin of the principle " nt pirotieotlon In th» tariff, tlw degree of " that protection, to be according to the clr- " eimuftances of the Industry and the condi- " tions of business amd of trade at the pre- " sen* time." Iq the some spoech he lays down this pro- pnwltlou . "The turllf which wws anade in 1878— — " He iDlersi undoutitedly to 1879. "The tai-iff which was made In 1878 was "a practical tikriCf, and the tariff which is "to be arranged duntaig this session must " also *iav« thfflit fSBaitune, If pOMrtblto, of be- " tng a pmcftical tariff, and must take cog- " Alsanee of the varying conditions of dlfler- " erat Ittinsttiim, and mu»t mete oat to them, " o» «he principle which we have stated, " the pr«('aettou wh*eh Is reasonably duo to " thMft, miA nBOBsof.ry In order to maintain "posslttle industries to t^^r portion In this " coantsy." Th«t kt th^ policy of the OfK^-f.vatlve party, of which party the hon. memiber foi W«rt Asstnfboia has been a most loyal mem- b«r. Whate^r they proposed In this Houtt, they could count \.c . him not only to vote ♦or it but to defer 1 ... Or, even 11 he should iipeak against it, they could always rely up- on his vote, .fow, let me ask that hon. gen- tleman, as t' m«mher of the party. In the face of thilo declaration of policy of the party with which tb^ hon. gentlemuan is con- nected, if they h -.d been returned to power In 1896. inj . ?a I of the Liberal party, and the agrlcultur:.V implement manufQcturens had made repr««t o atlons of the lacts to the Govsimment, whait ^ould bhe hon. gentleman have done ? II the manufacturers had come and said to the Finance Minister : We want yon to lool. at these figures taken from your own trade returns. What are they, he would say. They would answer: We beg to point out to you that in the year 1896, in the six months ending 81»t Decem- ber, 872 harvesters of a value of $87,071 were imported Into Manitoba and the North- west Territorii^, to say nothing of the peet of the Dominion, while, for the correspond- ing six months of the three next yearS' in which we hiave workied under a tariff n&- duced by you from 35 per cent, to 20 per cent, tanetre ihae bevn a marked Increase. In 1895, for th^ corresponding six months the numlMrr of harvesters imponed into Mani- toba and the North-west alone was 760, in 1896 it was 803. while for the six months ending December Slst, 1897, the number of harvesters imported into Manitoba and the North-west alone was 1,432. representing a value of $144,28». And they would say to the hon. Minister of Finance ■ Mr. DAVIN. The hon. gentleman asked me what I would say. I will tell him, It he will allow me. The MINISTER OP CUSTOMS. The hon. gentleman (Mr. Davin) is very anxious to lake every opportunity to rise. I could mt know exactly what the hon. gentleman would say, but I venture to say that If the Oovemment aeosded .to snch' a request on the ;>art of the manufacturers and had put implements back to where they were, he would have supported them. Mr. DAVIN. No. The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. That Is my fan precision. Mr. DAVIiN. I rise to a point of order. The hon. gentleman has pointed to me and has said he would like to know what 1 would do If my party had got into povn» Ip the last election and certain figniw were laid before the Finance Mh>l«ter. Do not you think, Mr. Speaker, that I should have an opportunity to tell the hon. gentleman what I would say. Mr. SPEAKER. I am afnkM I must leave that laa^Iy In the jhidgntent of the hon. member who ha» the floor to say whether he wanted a response or whether M' was only o»lng a fignre of spesch. ,.. - > The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. If I hav« said anything wrong I am uorry for tt. Uj con stifl Poll Insf era] the I FleJ sub] redif det M s« is argrameot is that it lian. gentl)m«o oppo- site had beon returned to vower tn 1896 aod the Implenient manufacturers had come to them and bad gihown, that since tlie reduc- tion of the tariff the number and value of those machines Imported was increased four times over in Manitoba and the North-west, and had demanded, in view of the party de- claration tliat the tariff must be arranged with a view to protection of the industry regnrdless of revenue, th^t they should re- stkire tih« duty to 80 oir 85 per cenit, if tb«7 were consistent with their principles, they would have been forced to concede that point. The manufacturers could have polntad out in addition that they were changed 80 or 25 per ceDt >ta all the ma- chinery in their factories and that even the workmen were compelled to pay 30 or 85 per cent on the tools. All this being shown if the Conservatives desired to be consistent they would be obliged to grant the request. While it is true with regard to reapers and mowers that the rate of doty was not low- ered, I contend that by the plan that was adopted by the Qovemment In this matter of giving the agricultural implem'^nt manu- factOTiers relief by reducing the duty on their raw material, substantial advantage resulted to the consumer. The reduction of the duties on the raw material enabled the Canadian manufacturers voluntarily to re- duce the price of implememts, I believe by fo apiece. And the Customs Departmeul gave a ruliiig admitting at ¥92 each a lairge line of implements that, up to that time, had been charged duty on the value of f 100. But I w4sh to point out to hon. gentlemen opposite these two or three items of which I have spoken, only a few among the Items used by the farmer, as instancing a fulfil- ment of the pledge that was given l>y the Minister of Agriculture. I have here a list of sixteen cu^ricuKural implemen'te, and I propose to show the rate of duty under the old tariff and the rate ,of duty under the general schedule of the Fielding tariff. I am not going t(7 quote the preferential tariff, because I will be canddd with the House and say that, so far none of the agricultural implements I am about to name have come from the old country. Seme may come wheal the 26 per cent reductiu frankly now that none have come in so far, a.id, therefore I do not In- stitute a compari.'ion with the old National Policy rate and the nr«rferentlal rate, but I institute a comparisom between the old gen- eral rate and the NatioT ni Policy rate, and the general rate that w«:-! enacted by the Fielding tariff. Notice what -'ipt they are Bubstftntial or not. I give the j rcentage of reduction, the difference In ttie rnto of dirty determines the percentage of reducti'^n from the old rate of duty. 8om« may say : Ton take 25 pear cent off that is very little. People do not realize how much 25 per cent off the old tariff rate amounts to. If you tell a farmer In the Nortth-west, or any- where else : I will give you 60 cents a bushel for your wheat, when he has been getting 80 cents a bushel, and he should say to you: Why, that is a terrible reduction; then you may turn round and say, in the language of hon. gentlemen opposite: No, that is no re- duc+lpn; that is only 25 per cent off. But they would think it was a reduction. Just the same, and just so surely does this per- centage of the reduction In the duty on the Implemenits the(y use be«ur that relatlcm to the itaxee thait were imposed upon Vbem under the Na/tional Policy. Now, let us look ait some of th«0e airtliicles : y Percent- Qeneral age of Tariff Tariff, reduction, 1894. 1897. 1897. p.c. p.c. p.c. Axes 35 25 28H Hay or straw knives. 86 25 28H Hand rakes 35 25 28% Farm rollers 80 26 16% Road or field roJlenv.. 80 25 16% Windmills 80 25 16% Horse powers 80 25 16% Portable engines 80 25 16% Threshers 80 25 16% Feed cutters 35 25 28% Separators 80 25 , 16% Potato diggers 85 26 28% Grain crushers 85' 26 28% Fanning mills 85 25 28% Hay tedders 86 25 28% Manure spreaders .... 26 20 26 Now, then, *o summarise, I have given you sixteen articles of agricultural Implementa used by farmers, seven of which have bean reduoed at the mate of 16% per cent, one hea been rednceid 20 per cemt, and eigint toam been reduced at the rate of 28% per cent from the old tariff. I Invite attcmtlon again to a statement I am going to make, that, to that table, I have a comparison of the re- dnctionsi in the old rate under the National Policy, and the general tariff rate under the Fielding iarlff— not the preferential rate, for if any came hi under the preferential rate, there would be 25 per cent further reduction off the amounts that I have already given. Now, I am about to read a table wMch, I tear, will prove tiresome to you, Mr. Speak- er, and perhaps to the members of th« House. But I deaire to get upon "Han- sard" something w^blch X eonslder valuable to ttie people, at the rtsk of maktog mymlS wearisome and tedious. I desire, also, to do H for the bmieui of the ex-Mtnlster of Fi- nance, who, when he ^oes upofc the plat- form, may not desire to give that dos* scrutiny to ttie facts of the case that nigiit be des4raMe, and I am about to place apm re - )i 5* tb» "HaiMard a vtatiemant from which h« can see Tor biTDWlf the enormous retductiouii that have been made in the rate of tx;zation •opoai the farmeiii ol this country. 'So, whetn he goes again upoa th« pkuttarm, he can tell the people : I aaid before that you have no rolief under this tarlK; but I find, upon closer investigatioin, that the roduotions in taxation have been simply enormous, and it i* my duty to lay the facta before you. I have given you sixteen articles under the gvneral tariff, and I propose now to give you a list of 107 articles. There are about 447 dutiable items in the tariff and 200 free items, and I think I may say, a^^euiking sub- ject, to correction — 'but I believe I am absor lutely correct^ — ^that there is not ome among all these items thaty if a full prefeirentlal tariff were applied to it, would not sliow a lower rate of duty than that under the Na- tional Policy. Them, I want to point out that, undeir that tariff, the great bulk of the rates on goods coming in from all count^lea have been reduced. Why, Sir, the prefer- aotlal rates, applied to articles that come from Great Britain will show a reduction greater, I think, than some people have been led to believe. Now, on those 107 articles 1 am about to give you, as I have verified by ofBcena in my department, there are imports of all of them, though in some cases very few, that come in from I>ritaiu or that will oome in under the preferential rate. I want to draw your attention to another point, eonoerning which my views differ a little, P6(r*hap9, from those of sumo hon. gentlemen, though, In a general sense, I am in agrree- ment with them In this mati^er. I lay it down as a piiioipo«itloin that lit would be diffl- •ult to controvert Eruccessfully, that, when you introduce an article Into a country, its Introduction under a lower rate of duty would, under normal circumstances, extra circumstanoes aot coonlng into the case, have an effect, mot only upon the artic)^ that was introduced, but upon a vast quantity of that same article that is produced and bought In the country. You, therefore, gain an idea of the amount of the reduction. Now, I do not propose to weary the House with the fignires. 1 want to give them in detail Buflaciently to bring me within the rules of the House and warnSint me In placJr"'- tkkB taJble in the oolumna of the "Ha^i3,.N. 2. S See • ' • » • 36 25 25 35, 26 10 20 30 20 p. 0. i'iVi . 4 • . •• P. 0, p. 0. |c. p. lb. He. p.lb. « 4 * • vrtf t > P.O. 26^' 181 18| % 26i 1 't 1« 22i 16 p. 0. 26 26 26 56 26 26 31 26 »t 26 26 2i 53 . 0. 26 26 26 55 26 26 31 26 .3& 26 26 Articles. 1894-95. Specific. 13 1897. General 1 > a 9i a Reciprocal Ta- riff. J p.c, oft". O '3 CO 03 C Glass tableware. . . Whips Boota and shoeb. . . Springs and axles. Cut nails Nails, N.E.S. Wire nails.... Cut^^taoks .... Wood screws.. Buckthorn fencing. . . Wire fencing, N. B. S Iron or steel nuts, washers, strap hinges and bolts Locke,butts and hinges, IS t £j* O* •••••• •••••• Cutlery Files and rasps. Adzes...... .......... Cleavers Hatchets Saws.,.. Wedges Hammers Crowbars Picks Mattocks Tools, not agricultural. Scythes. Sickles Reaping books Edgmg knives. Hoes Pronged forks Snaths Post-hole dit-gers.. ..... Agricul tu ral t ool8,n .e. s Shovels and spades Lamps and lanterns. . . Clothes wringers...... Agate, granite and en- amelled iron or steel hollow-ware. . . . .... Tinware Pumps, iron or wood . . Pails, tubs, brooms, washbo^rds.pounders and rolling pins [)ii6o. Furniture...., , Cotton wadding Cotton yarns Cotton fabrics, white. $20 p. ton but not less than 36 p. c, also Ic. p. lb. and 20 p. c. |c. per lb Ic. per lb ri leper 1,0001 \ IJc.perlb. .. i 3c., 6c. and 8c. p. lb., but not less than 36p.c }c. per lb I lcp.lb.& 20pc 1 lc.p.lb.&26pc j »«•••■ •••••• •••••••^•••i 50cpdoz.and26po 2§c each «id20p>d p. c. 30 35 25 or38 • • « • 30 ■ • • • 34 or46J oris 27J or44} 32} 32} 35 . 35 36 36 3f>} 30 36 30 35 36 36 35 36 36 36 3S 35 36 36 35 or36 30 or36} 35 26 8& 20 i 25 30 22} 36 25 |c. p. lb. p. 0. }c. p. lb. Ic.p.lb'A 25 pic. ' • • • • f * I p. 0. 30 35 25 36 • • • • 30 • • • ■ 35 35 16 15 orl3| 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 26 26 26 25 25 25 26 . 26 25 86 30 86 35 25 26 20 26 30 20 26 26 p. 0. 8 33i 40 23 45} 14f 7tV 14? 16| P.O. •••«•• ic. p. lb. •••«•• p. c. /uc. p. lb, 11 p. 0. 22} 261 18| 26^ r • • • 22} • * • • 26i 26} 11} 32J 22} 22} 22} 22} 22} 22} 22} 22} 22} 23} 22} 22} 22} 18| 18| 18| 18' IB; 1 18 IK 18 26} 22 r. 26. 26 26 31 50 26 66 23 42 26 60 25 30 30 3<5 36 36 36 30 26 36 26 36 36 36 46 48 46 46 46 46 46 46 46 27 25 15 I 26 26 16| 54 Articles. 1894-95. Speciflo. eS > 1897 • General 1 o * V) et I -a M < 4> U O Jy 0) u Mo C 9) CL> Reciprocal Ta riff. J- p.c. off. QQ 13 > un- Cotton fabrics, bleached Cotton fabricB,coloured Damask of linen Tablecloths Towels.... Cotton quilts, white. . . do coloured. Sheets Handkerchiefs Curtains Linen, silk and cotton clothing Collars..... Cuffs ...... Shirts, over $3 per doz. " under $3 per doz. Velvets and silk fabrics Ribbons Cotton thread in hanks do N.E.S. Horse clothing, jute... Linen and jute manu facturea, N.E.S Bags of linen, jute or seamless cotton Socks and stockings . . Knitf«d goods, N.E.S. Shawls Wool fabrics Tweeds, flannels.blank- ets, cloths, coatings (wool) Carpeting, jute and hemp Carpets, ingrain wool.. do do cotton de N.E.S Enamelled floor, stair, shelf and table oil cloth 24c.doz.and25p.c 4c.pairand25p c. Ilpdoz and2 p c 36 p. c Window shades. -Uinhrellaa* . ..... Gloves and mitts Hats and bonnets Brac e s and suspenders Fur capp, coats, Ac . . , Pertillzers, compound ed or manufactured, Combs Brushes Twins and cotton cord • ••••••••••• ••«• lOcpdoz pr&35pc, ••• •••••< 5c.porlband25p.c. 5c.p.8q.yd.&25p.c 3c.p.eq.yd.&25pc. 30 p.c. but not less tnan4c.pereqyd 36 p.c. but not less tilau5c.perflqyd I ••»♦»• r« ••»•• •■ »ge,.,.., Cordage, N.E.S....... licp.lb.AlOp.c. p. c. 22J 80 26 30 26 26 30 32^ 30 30 32i 4a 36 }36J 30 30 25 30 20 20 40 35 26 30 32j^ 26 36 36 30 48 35 35 SO 85 26 10 28 26 m a> p. c. p.c. p.c. p.c. 25 35 30 30 30 30 30 30 36 36 •*•■*• 11 161 20 18| 26i 22} 22} 22} 22} 22} 22} 26^ 26i 20 20 7t^ ■'il 36 36 36 '"24" 3 7A 26i 26i 26i 36 4 26i 30 35 16 25 30 22} 28i lU I8i 22} 161 20 25 26 181 20 36 35 30 35 , , . . ^ ^ ^ ^ 15 26J 22} 26i 12} 20 18* 36 1^, 26i 25 35 35 18f 26 26 3 3 "in 30 22} 36 35 S5 30 36 30 27 26i 26i 26| 22} 26 22} ..... .^ "26' 10 35 £5 7} 26 m 18* 1^1 26 26 ■ • •.* <••* p.c. I6| 12} 10 25 10 10 25 30 12} 12} 20 43 27 28 26 12} 10 25 25 6} 26 36 25 10 12} 20 26 27 27 12} 26 45 26 26 25 26 10 26 26 25 25 38 55 Articka. 1894-96. Specific. Ad valorem 1897. Percentage of Decrease. Books on agriculture Binder twine Barbed wire Rape seed Mushroom spawn. Seed beans from Great Britain d^alvanized iron or steel wire, Nos. 9, 12 and 13 gauge , 6c. per lb Jc. pfcf lb 16o. per bush. p.C. 10 20 •••ff •••••• 25 Free doj do do do do p. e^ 100 100 100 lOO 100 100 106 I leave It to hoa. gentlemeai oppoelte to say whether w© have not advanced in the direction of tarlH retorm raspeeftlng agri- cultural itnplemesitB. Mr. DAVIN. Is that 27 per cent reduction on shovels and spadee with the prefeireiir- ttal allowance off ? The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Yes. Mr. DAVIN. Hardly any of tl>ese articles come in trom England. The MINISTEK OF CUSTOMS. I in- structed my officers to carefully pcrefpare the ■list. I have already said that some come to in larger and others in minor quantities; but they come in under the 12% per cent re- duction, and it is impoeslble to tell whait the increase will be under the 25 per cent re- duction. Thero is, at all eveoits, tliat re- lief given. I have placed In tWs list, be- cause them articlea are needed by agricultur- teta a» W011 as otbera, oottons, woollens and othor Items, Just as tiie Finiance Miolstnr did, not selecting some articles that snpport my case, but de^iing with the general staple ar- ticl«^9 that come In from Greet Britain in large quantities and whifch the farmers have to buy, ¥ow, I feel e» great regret as hon. gentleman do at ojy havii^ Jo read tiiis statemeat, which I know is not Iratereetlng, «»d which, if one wanted to make a speech at all intereeting, he would eschew by all possible means. But I felt It desdrable to put these figuree upon "Hansard," and I in- vite criticism upon tljem. I know w*at the criticism of hon. gentlemen oppoeite will amount to. It will amount to this, that t-hert are yei^ few of some of the«i articles coming from England. I grant that in stmie few items; but, neverbhelwjs, evep in these some do conje from Buslnnd; and if some have come in under the 12% per cent reduc- 4«oo, vwrt quantifies may come in under tttw 25 per cent reduction. In this list, I have In- cluded the great staple Hoep which are iised by all claseso in the co(mmuin*ty, which go into every houseooid. I have shovm that »vm tn the it^ns on wttieh tfae lea*t reduc- tloo has been m«de, It is a very ^eat reduc- tion to the burdens which the people hav? tQ bear. Now let me summarise. In these 107 irems which I have read, we have made tin ioUowlng reductions :— PERCENTAGE OF REDUCTIONS UNDER THE RECIPROCAL TARIFF. I reduction of 6^ per cent 6 do 10 do 6 do I2>^ do 2 do 165^ do 2 do 20 do I do 23 do 45 do 25 do 4 do 27 do I do 28 do 4 do 30 do a- do 31 do 9 do 36 do I m l^rltaln, It may bft in small quant{«k!« fei some caflee, under the 13% per cant m&mi-^ tloo, under a 25 per cent reduotlon (ffirge quajptities of these goods will not eoioe in. If they are able to do th«rt. they will have weakenadi my oaee. Mr. BAVIN. That is asking tui to ptove a neerative, wbl€b jkhi kmow It is not tight to do. 56 li The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I know i*^ will be difficult to do; but tbe pos6ib]e. The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I invite ttM attention of the House to another thing. The full benefit of ^he Fielding tariff, which was imtroduced into tbls House last jrear. will noit be experienced till after the Ist of July, and will not be experienced at onoe; for, while we were pledged to re- form the tariff aiid liffh'««n the burdeais of taxation on the people of the country, we were business men, we knew what we had to recognize tJie condiltiooa created under hon. genttlemen oppoelte^ and we would not throw tMs coumtry into a oom- mercl'al panic, but wiould reach our eoad by 9afe mo&va, and we believe it will be reach- ed with perfect safety to those who liave in- vested their money In. industrial under- takings. Now, what do I find'? I find, from a taflble 1 hiad preipared la me, taking t3ie Impoait^tlon of goods' esutered for cooBiujnp- tion into Canada under the reciprocal tariff, and the duty collected thereon during the Biz mon^his ending 31st of December, 1 897, that the abateooiemt of duty under the 12% per cent reductioin amounted to $521,- 451 during the s4x months. If you double that, you get the year's operations as fairly as we can estimate ^heim now. I think you will be safe in doubling' it, because tuade does not all at once find Its new channel. The EngHfthman Tealized that this was an open- ing greater than he hiaa enjoyed before, but In many lines the bed to make bis arrav^sfi- ments, and so dutdn^g the first few mootha you could not expect the trade to flow as freely thpouigh this new channel as it will later. Any business man can undei«tand that. But if you double that trade of the first silx montihs., what would tbat ro«an? It would me*n that besides the reduiitlci ifl the burden of taxation «h the people, owing to our reduced tariff, owing to Otk- general lowering' of dntles on the greet bulk of th* items, there is the further reductions under tfrfe preferential clause. I say double that and you will hav«i $1,042,000 of relieif. That is the relief in one year, undeir a reduction of 12%^ per cent. I ve/hture to «jay that theahe Isr not a iwan wfco will not aAnritthifrt wtth this current of trade now eetabllehed, and with the impettoa wftiich 26 per cent will give it «» «g«iiinet 12% per oftot, a rsdocttoci of two mUliooi dollars of taxktion will r4- preaent tlie reduction rtn tli© Itn ports under tteat reolprdcal tarltf after a year fttom neact July. An hoa. MEMBSw p«v/itj •♦'•rtts • The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Jm, m- duction. I say that under the 25 pei* cent reduction, in the face of the figures I have giveoQi, in tihe face of events that have actu- ally tnanspired, it is small hazard to predict that w4ien this preteirentlal tariff is in full torce for ai year, with tihe 25 per cent redue- tion, there will be a reduction, not on the old pates of duty of the late Government, but on the reduced general tariff rates of the n«w Government that M^ill equal three mdlllon do)- <«rs; and I ask any hon. gentlemiau in this House who ventures to say that there is no i^forniAtion in this tariff, that the pledge of the Liberal party to reduce the burdens of the people has not been carried out, how, when this takes place as we think it will, Ue can hope to maintain his position. What doesi it amount to ? Det me Illustirate. W'hat is the equivalent of thiat reduction in the tax- ation of the people, so that we may grasp the amount of reduction that has been made? It will be equivalent to taking ten mllUoe dollars worth of imported goods, on wbidh 30 per eent duty has been levied, and tran*- ferring that ten million doliare to the free list. That is what ft means. Mr. CLANCY. Does the hon. gentleoaan meon by that statement tbal there will be A. loss to the revenue of three mllMon dol- lars. Tlie MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. There win be a loss to the revenue on that ac- count, but thai loss will be made up by the Btlmuluc^ given to trade, and the wealth we hope to put Into the people's pockets, which will enable thearf to buy more goods, and on & larger scale than they are doing to-day — buy millions , of dollars more of goods and p*y tor tkem. They wifl» have the aio«ey to do Jt. And by giving that etiraulue to trade, every manufactory In the country w4H be running full time and over-time, too. That is what we hope to Be». I have been a little tlresiome, I am awaro, on tjhat subject, and I now want to toueh upon another point. My hon. friends oppo- site, the leader of the O.pposition and the exi-Flnance Minister, said luat session, wbef» the tariff was Introduced, that it would have to be changed. They said that it filled them top with 'humiliation. . Canada had been hvmilia]ted. They told us what an awkward position we were putting ourselves in. Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Hear, hear. The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. They told ns how Ignorasit we were with ^eferience to that matter. ,.,■, . Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Hear^' ]^i " The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Ard the same mournful spirit is upon fchem yet. 1 could not help thInMng, as 1 gated npon my hotJ. frtend, of the lines j "Talk not of grief "Till thou tiaiBt seiptl the tears of bearded men." ' Their grief was so gr^rt over the humilli^- tioa which they said was tar«xugrht upon 57 Canada, so gnat at our h«viiDig deceived and deluded the g^^eat Brittoh pttbllc. Sir GHARLES TUPPER. Hear, hear. The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. That wae the lan^age of the bon. genttetnan la»t year. He Is BtlU sad amd lonely In hto grief. Sat let me aak him to look at a bright plc- tniw, lor I haite to aee grief w«steid. The hon. gentleman Is waflttliig It. Let me ask him to look at a bright picture— not a fancy picture but a tnue one. Let him transport himMlf, in bto mind, to ithe great' tturobblng centre ol the Empire a year ago or less — Loiidion. Let him graze upon the scene tak- ing place there. Let him look upon the hundreds of thousands of Englis'h people and British citizens front all parts of the world assembled there. Let Wm look upoii» the mlghti«et of eairtb's soveredgns, as she paswee along those streets, lined with lov- ing subjects, with "God blees you my peo- ple" lalUing from beir ginadous lips, aod ]«t htm llatem to tfae responaee from -r- Slr (5HARLES TUPPBB. Yes, to tbe- tune Of a falling off of £171,900 for the first tdur months _of tts op^jratSon, The MINISTER OF GUST QMS. The hon.. gentleman must remember that £171,000 ie not fuch a veiry greet deal m the tmmeiuK commerce of Great Britain. And does the hon. gentleman mean to say that statements of succeeding periods will not balance that and mow ? I need not argue that with tSie hon. gentleman. I know hie ability, and I know^ tihat he knows better than he Issaytog now. The bon. gentleman- says tbat we made a great mistake. Th«o^, agrain, grtet and sadness oveorwhelraed bltt, beeauiw. When we gave tihte pretereratfal tairlff we did not demand better teims for Ganadift on the «!xp«lat«ir was boumd in some way, In the in- teresfts of the Unltsd States, as I understood him to say, t-o parties in the United States. I thought he had said more than he meant to say, that he had «cald It in a sudxleai heat, and that he might wl«h to explahi It or withdraw it. Sir CHARLES TUPPER. No, no. The hon. gentleman said no such a thing. The hon. gentlemeen an Important figure In itihe btstory o4 South Africa, and this is what he says: . "Mr. Cecil Rhodieo anrlved at Madeira to- •' ctoy. In the course of a recent converea- " tlon he spoke wanmly of the services Oan- " ada had rendered to the BmplTe by com- " pelllng the British Government to clear the " Geiman and Belgian treat•» That, at any rate, was the view of a dls- tlngulsihed man from an outlying Britisih posBeestoo. Mr. DA YIN. Tiwt is on opinion advene to the policy of the Government. The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. What do I find in a special cabte published in the Montreal "Star," a paper that Is not, I believe, pamtdcularly trienddy to the AdmCn- latratlon or its acts ? It is dated from London, England, and is as follows : — "The crises In Cuba and CIitosL almoett 411 " the papers here. "The Budget of the Hon. Mr. Fielding, " Milnlster of Finance, Oanada, attracts a " good deal of attention. I heard a Cooser- " vatlve member of Parliament say this " morning: 'Our Mitotetera jaw, Jaw, Jaw, " and do little but Jaw about tfie unity of " the Empltie, but Canada keeps on d<^g, I said that i^ acticm of tdlie C'otiadlan Par- liament in offering those terms to the Bri- tish people, had touched the British heart, M ,1 HI 6o I :^ '■''■' i and tbat led tlMcn o( their own motloo to make Inqulrlea reBpectlng th« pioducts ot this Dominion. Wtiot do we h«wix from ■hipperft and merctiants ? To-day in the principal markets Inquiries are made tor Canadian goodfi; a trial is given them, and the result la aaem In the widely increaaeid exports to the English markcit. Left me ^iTe the House a statement of our export* to Grent Britain during the Omt elx moothc of the preserot flacal year. We find that onr exports, a« compared with the corree- poudimg period of the lest flscol year, in- creased by the large sum of $22,500,688. That is our total exports for the six mouths over the oorreapondlng six mooths of the last year. I thtak it is a fairer way to leave out the foreign products, and if we do so, we find that during tl>oeei six months our home products exported to Great Bri- tain srhow an inoreaae of $10,287,864 dur- ing the six mooths of the preaeotvt over tto« correnpondimg six monthsr of tbe previous year, which itself wae a large year for eat- porte. Where do I flmd the InereaBes ? Take the flgurps. Prodiucts of the flsheorlAs, in- crease, f 32,664; pnoditicta of the toreat, in- crease, f3,348,299; aiitaials and thedr pro- duce, Increase, *%564,942; agricultural prio- duets, IncreBoe. 18,640.184; manufacturea. Increase, $782,759. The export* of pa-oduc© of tbe mines to G^reat Britain decreased dur^ Ing the six months by $108,648, and tbere wi|8 also a decrease la the exports of miscel- laneous artlctes to tihe exten* of $22,216. Oedrnctlng these decrecuses, the Inonease in the other Hue of home produote during the first «i-?. moctlhe of the preaeH't fiscal year over the correeponding six months of the pre- v*ou» year amoiuoited^ to $19,287,864. I de- sire to call atteotloo to the fact that while our exports have sihown an Increase dur- ing those six months of nearly $20,000,000 as compared with the corresponding six motvtlhs of tflie previous year, the total im- portu into Great Britain during that time had decreased nearly $90,000,000. Can any- thing speak louder for the po«itiooi that Canada has taken in the British market even in the short space of time our tarliff has been in operation ? Mr. LANDBRKIN. pr^efeirertlal trade. That is very good The AfTNI8TER OP CUSTOMS. I had not intendtd to occupy the tlm/e of the House so long, but the readJjig of tiu> ijables took a longer time than 1 had anticfp&ted. I have mot attempted to deal with the flnaoclal part of the statement made by tbe Minister of Finance and offffl- any orl- tldsm thereon, for the Minister of Trade and Commerce, In his very fair an«[ able crltlci«un, ga-ve am explane4;ion and defence of the admftrisitmtloai of IMIb Government, which may disappoint some of our friend* who may have (anticipated th«it gsneateir re- scltfl would have been attained^ but wbleh will enable them to see clearly that the Government, so far as wa« eonstotent with the welfare an4 prosperity of the Domin- ion, have endeavoured, eo far as In tbem lies, to economically carry on the adniin- iHtratlon of the flmancee of the country, while they are at the same time advancing its prosperity. Mr. DAVIN. What about sugar t The MINISTER OP CUSTOMS. It is Just an element in the policy that ha* been In- troduced by tWs Government, that of bind- ing togettier the colonies as well as the mo- ther country. I would say to hon. gentle- m«in opposite that I have never claimed credit, nor has this Government ever claim- ed credit, that in onr preferential trade as regards England or English cnlonie* we have acted siolely end aione to bemeflt lihe motherland or the colonies. We are look- ing after our own Interests as well as de- veloping the interests of the motherland. The reductions in our burdens give advan- tage to Canada, and the prelerence accord- ed to England is an advantage given to her by Canada, and the same remark applie* to the West Indies. What ditl the leader of the Opposition soy with respect to ttue preewnt sugar tariff 7 He declared we had adopted the right poMcy, that he had urged It upon us last year, that under the tariff am it existed our West Indian commerce had been destroyed. 1 was unable a* the time to find or to remember where the bon. genitleman l npoke, I t^ink, of myself as having been treated somewhat unfairly, as be supposed by the Postmaster General. Well, I have' not felt very badly over that matter. I am told by people who were pnesent that when the an- nouncement of that reduction in ESnglish postage was made, It was well received by the audience. In fact, I was at the meeting mysedf. I am told tb>at the announcement was a« electrical. It showed me that, although the PostmastM- Goneral has perhaps been de- layedr in the consummiatlon ot his wishes tor » short time, e» we have been in our desire to confine our tariff preference to the British Empire, yet cKa heart of the Canadian people was with him in that IiapSrial-Oana- dian tnoveiiaent; and when tliat comee about, then the hon. gentleman 'can liave the batistactton of knowing that still an- otheir vact has, tihrongto tfhe instirtimenhatlty of the Canadian GoYennment, un*^ still more dosedy and liound more firmly to- ttether tlie mot»«'labd And thte thl^ greatest V* u6>T poesesHions. I bav© spoken of the postage, as requesteid. If there are any other m«itters on wMch hon. gentlemen would like to hear me speak, 1 would like to oblige them, though I must ©lose my remarks, tor I certainly wlH not continue tiiem beyond the dlniner hour. liSt me note, in conclusion, that hon. gentle- men make Herlous charges against us. They charge that we have not fulfilled a single promise that we made to the people — that we have failed in all our pledges. Well, Sir that is a serious charge. Is it true? Do the hon. gentieinen mean In earn^t to make a charge of that kind ? After the figures I have given, taken from official records, will they say that this Government have not been true to the pledge they gave to the people of this country to reduce the burden of taxation. In the light of the figures given by the IMnAnco Minister, and dwelt upon more In detail by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, will they not say that In many of the branches of the public ser- vice economies have been practiced and re- trenchments made ? We promised that there would be Increased prosperity, and do they mean to say that increased prosperity Is not In the country to-- answerable logic of «act» the LRjeral party at *ny rate, may wtU hft iDCffvtenit to aibid*. ■■■■I Kl'