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SPEECHES

OF THE

HON. W. S. FIELDING, M.P.

■-»'-•,. I >

MINISTER OF FINANCE

SIR RICHARD CARTWRIGHT, M.P.

' •• " ■) ' '

MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE \

AND

HON. WILLIAM PATERSON, M.P.

MINISTER OF CUSTOMS.

Hoase of Commons. Ottawa, April 5th, r2th and -th. iSqS.

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THIRD SESSION— EIGHT PARLIAMENT.

ST=>EEOI3C

Hon. W. S. Fielding, M. P.

ON rill BUDGET.

OTTAWA, 5TH APRIL, 1898.

SUPPI'Y— THE BUDGET.

Th« MINISTER OF FINANCE (Mr, Field-
tog) moved Hbat the House weolve ltB©lf
Into Committte© to coMridier of *he Ways asid
Means llor mlalng the Supply to be graiDted
to Her Majecrty.

Hie said: I riso to move, Mr. Speaker, ia
accordacwie with notice, the nnotion. wbidh
yotk havei put from the Cbalr, and bekwe pon-
cludimg my rwnarke I trhall place upooD th^
Table of the Honse « series of reaoluitlons
to which it i» lay dwrlre to invite the atten-
tion of .tiie House.

A little lees than ome year ago, uader elr-
cumstainoes which perhaps marked the occa-
sion as one of 0o<me importance In the his-
tory of Haittada, I hiad the hanour tx> di«»liv«r
.in ithilB House my flimt Budi^ sjpeecfa^ .

in rising' to-day to perform a similar dlutiy,
X am sure that I have ample girouitdis on
which bo eougratalate the Hcwiee on ttoe coo-
dltioD of the couovtry, and ou the results of
the policy of die QoTarnment which It was
my prlTllege to anmounce to the House in
A];^! teat. Qaioada has <hAd am eventful
year, a year marked by gneat poiiticfil ad-
vancement, material progrees and steadlliy
increastSng prosperity.

Follow iTig the usual practice in Budget
«ehe«, I shell first ask f^ attenutfon of the
I am to a brief (review of the operatlloiDb of
tybe flnanciial year 1896-97, which eodied on
the 80th of June last, the accounts of which
bav« been in the poseeserfon of the Houee for
some time past. The revenue Jor that year
yteMed $87,829,778, aa againat |86,618,fi90
for Wm yaar 1895-36, or an loereasa ot $1,-
SlLlST- Th* total AXTMndlt^nro n,n r-rtfuwull-

dated FuBid ieac3ied 988,849,759, as against
an expenditure ot 986,949,142 In 1895-96,
or an Incteaaa of 91.400,617. Ttie outeoaie
of 1896-97 left us wkh a deficit of 9519,981,
as agalnet a deficit on the previous year ot
9880,551. That, 4^ brief, is tiie HMult of ihtt
year's operations on account of Oonsoltdwtod
Fund.

Following the ueuad custom, I give ttie de-
tails of the revenue, as compared with the
piervioQS yewr :

Customs.
Excise ...
Miscella-
neous;.

1896-97.

19,478,247
9,170.378

9,181,162

1895-96.

19,833,379
7,926,005

8,869,306

37,829,77836,618,590

Increase.

1,244,372
321,846

1,566,219
365,032

1,211,187

De-
crease.

355,032

356,032

It will be noflced that tbene was a Bligikt
decrease in the coKtoais revani», which c«n
be attributed to ttie r«rtrictive effect 'On_ tfee
ImpoftB of tfoe anticipated cbaogw ©t tb«
fiscal system Inaugurated 2»rd April of kwt
yeaar, ^md ta the^^xsdaction i& the datles be-
tween that date and 80th June. The Idsf^
incieaae of excise Is, of course, iccounted
for as aa antieipatton of the euxrent jms'9
reci^pts, in vtew o! existed e&«9!ig«8 la t&e
duties of eiccise. In the ItecBS ettmjftml^

recedpts (roan post office. Taking up the
report of- my oolkeguie, the hon. the Mlnlerter
ot Customs, I find that, on the following
AiTtiicles, Importanit iocreagee In duty have
been received :

Animals, living f 17,122

Oamlages .... 59,072

Fancy goods 9,902

Qlaas and mauutacturea ol 10,760

LiMitlher do 17,108

Oil*, coal, keroMoe and products

of 24,880

Sugar of all kinds 584,894

SplrMs and wkces «.. « 221,783

Tobacco and mianufactufeji til 88,765

Watdhes i 17,574

On the other hand. In the following atiticles
Important decreaseB have taken place in the
duties collected, as compared with the pte-
Tiou«i yaar :

Books, periodicals aoid other print-
ed matter f 16,871

Gnsdn of all kinds I0l,l21

Flour and meal of all kinds 8H,229

Cotton, manufactures of 154,418

Flax, hemp and Jute, manafact-

ures of 62,187

Fruit and nuts, dried .... .... 68,887

Fruit and nuts, given 22,192

Furs amd numufactures of 28,118

Qloves and mitts 40,048

Qutta percba and india-rubber,

manufactures of 11,496

Qold aiid allver, manufactures of.... 18,660

Hats, caps and boonets 16,188

fron and steel, and m<ainufaotucesi

of .... 68,574

Musical instruments 12,010

Oils, all oither than coal> kero-

Oil cloth 9,887

Pickles, sauces and capers of all

kinds 8,192

Silk, manufactures of .... 106,666

Stone and manufacturea o( 8,917

The details ot the increase im excise are cm
follows:

Articles.

Spirits Galls,

Malt Lbs.

Cigars ■ ^ No.

Cigarettes No.

Tot)aoco and Snuif......i...> Lbs.

Quantity,
1896.

2,344.767

61,690,278

108,290,260

80,461,900

9,392,487

Quantity,
1897.

2,782,514

68,443,353

113,276,105

98,798,000

10,690,765

Duty,
1896.

3,973,300
775,354
648,462
120,692

2,228,697

7,746,605

Duty,
1897.

4,732,506

1,020,652

678,029

15b,267

2,398,443

8,991,887

Increase.

769,206
261,298
29,667
1 35,565
169,746

l,246,38i

The per capita consumption of the following
articles usually finds a place- In the Budget,
and I give it, as follows : —

Spirits, Beer, Wine, Tobacco,

Galls. Galls. Qalle. Lbs.

1894.... -742 3-722 089 2264

1896 .... -666 3-471 090 2163
1896.... -623 3628 -070 2120

1897 .... '723 3-469 084 2 243

It vni) be ttotlced that there is an apparont
Increase In the consumption of spirits bi
1897, but that, I thlrnk, is to be accounted
for by the fact that in anticipation o|
the chanigM in the excise duties last ses-
sion, very considerable quantities were en-
tered tor duty, whlcih will probably sJSeet
the (toxeumptkin for the neoct year, so that
the figures which show bh increase, ra timer
sbQir Hfi tnopeBae to mercantile oppeo-atlone
tiian to aetual consumption. The avex'\age
pofT eaplta causumptlun was as follows : —

Spirits,... Gall 1-026

Be«r. .., do 2-920^

Vfiiie. ... ... do '180

Tobacco Lbs. 2173

We como now to the expenditure of the
year.

Mr. FOSTER. Before going to the ex-
penditure of the year, oaai my hon. frtood
tell me what amount of the increase is due
to the Jubilee stamps of 1896-97 ?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. I have
not includied that In my statement, but I
shall be glad to give It la*er on. The peat
otflce revenues to the public accounts show
it in general terms. I shall fumleih it later
on If the hon. gentleiman deelTee.

The eixpenditure on consolidated nevenoe
readied f 88, 849,759, being an Increase of
if 1,400,617 over that of the previous year.
Taking up the details ol the outlay, J find
that In the following servlow tflwre Is an
inci«a«ed expenditure :

Interest on pubUc debt fl48,28S

Charges ol managemeot „ .... 29,905

Sinking funds 4«,526

Pi'eniium, dilecount and eschaoge.. 38,888

CirU govetPnlnw»t .... -. 22,31&

AdmiintotratiKiin of Jusrtice 16,491

DomdlnioQ E>olikta .. 1,086

Legisiatioa 230,084

Pealtenitlaries , 24,870

Wot

MHI

MBIi«tl||||MU

MMi

■BMm

8B,220
154,418

62,187
68,887
23,19^
28,118
40,943

11,496
18,060
16,188

68,574
12,010

80,298
9,887

8,193

,. 106,666

8,917

else aire ea

Increaee.

759,206
261,298
2a,667
; 35,566
169,746

l,24b,38i:

Itura of the

to the ex-
don, (rlond
neaae is due
?

2. I have
ent, hut I
. The pc«t
lunts show
{Ml It later

ed revcmtoe
increaee of
\ioxm year,
tlay, I aiMl
ttoere ift an

fl48,28S

46,526

38,888

32,21&

16,491

1,085

230 084

'24,87S

Arts, agrlcnltnre and atatlatlcfl.... 18,612

Immigration 7,289

Quarantine 24,914

PemtoDfl ...'. 4»801

Militia 680.874

Public Works, Oonwolldated Fund.. 168,949

Railways and canals 7,961

Mail flubeddlee end steAmehip lub-

Tcntions 18,896

Oceam and river fuerTloe 1,805

Marine hoapltata l.*47

Fiehoriee 16,836

Geological Survey 14,881

SubsicUee to provinces ..»»»..».•* 2,894

Indiana ..» 27,655

MiaoeUaneous 9,892

OuBftoms ;;. ..J 48,912

Poat office 124,467

Tnade and commierce 6,141

On the other hand, there have beeai de-
creases on the IoHo7^J»K : —

SupeiraoHiuatioin '..» •...' • 9 8,489

Mounted Police .... 0,852

Ligliibouee and coast service 20,814

Scientific Institutione 1,705

Govemmeot of the Nortfli-weBt Ter-

rltomles 10,167

Excise 0,448

WeigHitB aind measures and g&» .... 6,150
Bailways and Oaanals, ooltectkxn.... 100,585

Domiiinion lamds '. 8,492

Public Works, oolJbctloai 11,892

The miain inoreases will be found to be
in the interest an public debt, legislation,
militia, public works, and post office, and
the causes operating m these oases were
ezplatoed in my remarks of the 2^d of
April last .vear, and are sufficiently well
Imowvi. 1 need not refer to them further
than to say that they are the direct result
of the apparent economy accomplisfhed by
my predecessor in 1895-96, an economy,
which I aan Justified lin saying was omly
appaoneoit, beoa'use I itMnik hom. getattetncm
t^ieniselves will admit that It was not possi-
ble to oooittnue the eKpendituie on the fig-
QieB of thia/t yeair. Indeed, ium. geotlemetn
on the otber Ride, by the remarks they have
made on these subjects, have frequently ad-
mitted as much.

In concliudtflg my observationB upon the
business of the fiscal yeax of 1896-97, end-
ing the 80th of June last, let me express the
ilsope tlhait my hiota. {rieoidS oppoedte will Al-
low me to congratulate thesn on the ^eiy
Bappy failure of some of tbc very gTOf imy
predictions which itheor made rcspdctiiig
that yaar. It may be retmembered that in
the closing hours oS the first session of this
ParMament, my hoc. fcrlend the leader of the
Opposition (Sir Charles Tupper) and my
hom. friend the eX'^Minister of Finance (Mr.
Vostter) mads very stKntg aittocks upon the

SiMim atel pcsit^l* Of tl^ Oovepnvcent, ftBd

{»edlet*d tlmt ^Tery direful things would

happeo in the flnrt year of Liberal adminls*
tratioo. I oo oot propose to detain tbe
House with lengthy quotations from their
remarks, but I may sommariae th«ir pie-
dletions very briefiy. My boctu irietulB stat-
ed that we wer* eavtering upon a year of
reckless Qxpendiiture which oould only end
in finaaclal disaster. They declared that
wit&in thait cudtfeot year of 1890-97, I
WQuld be obliged to bo ow at least 910 ,<
000,000, and tba/t I woald have to go on the
money market onider conditions that would
greatly damage our public creddt. They
will, I hope, be gratified to learn that dur-
ing that current year we did not have to go
on the general money market at all; that our
total temporary borrowing, in the usual
way of treasury hills, did not amount to
ten million dollars or even half of ten mill-
ion dollars; and that the only borrowing In
which we Indulged, over and above tlie n»-
newal of a loan contracted by my predeces-
sor, was less than three milMon dollars, and
thait when ait a subeequent and proper time
we did proceed to place a loan on the Lon-
don market. Instead of going with a dam-
aged credit, as my hon. friends predicted we
went under favourable condltlosis and met
with gratifying success.

Tt]||y also stated that we would not be
able to oome out of the year's operations
with a dedcit of less than $8,260,000. As
la'te as the month of April last, my hon.
friend the ex-Mlnister of Fiaance modified
his caleulation, but even then he predioted
that we could not come out of the y«»»
with a deficit of tees than 92,000,000. He
will, I am sure, be glad to iaarn that we
came out of the year wdith a deficit, not of
98,250,000, not of 92,000,000, but of the
modest sum of 9519,000. My hon. friend
said that in the first year of Liberal admin-
istration we would have an exp'jrditure of
at least forty million dollars. He will
be glad to learn, I hope, that the expendi-
ture of that year amounted to only 988,-
349,759.

My hon. friend said that he could appeal
with confidence to the great arbiter, time, to
decide these things. , Well, the great arbiter
has given Judgment, and has given Judgmenit
against my boa. friend and in favour of the
Administration. I suppose It would be toti
much to eotpect of my hon. friends opposite
that they will take the cheetful view which
we, on this side, are disposed to take of the
prospects of the country under a Liberal
Sdmtolstration, I suppose it is even pos-
sdbte) ittvat tbedr sense tA dwty may ottUge
then to Qoi^fctone to draw^ the sama alaiitainir
picture of <*e future under Liberal role.
We, on tfeis side, will have to comiart our-
selves wttih tbe tbo^ht, when we have
these alarming i^edietlons, that.time^ ttes
great arbiter, will ean^riaKie to deeids i^psdMt

Admiiuk^itatloo.

I have glTAii Bome flgnrea rMpeottoig the
coowunixtloo oD apkrlits and intoxlocttliif; .11-
qooiv, but It baa occurred to me tbait, to
▼lew of the agitation on th« subject of pro-
hlbiflocn, which Is likely to be continued aaid
to take a laore empihatlc »hape at au early
day, ttorre will be frequent references, no
doubt, to the amount of duty and the reven
Duee of the varloua departments of the
QovoTJinient arialng from the liquor trofHc.
I thdnk that, therefore, It might be cooveol-
eot to Include in the Budget a statement
showing exactly what are the reTeouee de-
rived from that wMiroe. The statemeiut la
for the year 1896-97.

Quantity. Duty.

Customs —
Ale, beer, Ac... Galls. 327,216 $65,245.30

Excise-
Malt Lbe. 68,143,363 1,026,662.13

Customs —
Spirits and wine8..0'l8. 1,396,136 2,406,629.81

Excise —

Spirits Galls. 2,782,614 4,782,606.19

Or,

Customs.. $2,471,776.11

Excise 6i759Jl68.32

Samsning it up, we find that the revemuee re-
e^ved from tbeae sourcee aie : Cnatoma,
$2,471,775.11; excise, $6,759,158.82, mak-
ing a total reveoue from taat source of
$3,230,988.48.

Bo far, Sir, I hATe dealt with the finan-
cial year ending June last. Now, let na turn
our atteoition to the current yeor, of wiiich
ni!fi« montlM have elapeed. With thto
itlapoad period as a basis of oal&vlatioo, I
i^all endouTour to estimate what our pioei-
tioa win probably be on the BOth June next.
\fp to Slat Morcb last, according to tbe
Iftkat Ntwtemeints we have o/btalned, our
euie^xsmtt revenue amounts to $16,111,029.82.

Making due allowance for the Increase we
LavB lately b«ni experiencing in the recel^xts
fnxm this sonrcei, and keeping in mind that
cftsnr let July the preferential feature of outr
t-zxiS obtains Its full development and con-
seqi.ently there vr411 be a slight check In the
Imports In May and Jnne, I think I am
wiitfeiln the mark when I estimate the eos*
toms cievenue at $21,000,000, as against
last year's yield of $19,478,347. From ex-
cdss, I do not expect to recedve more tboo
$8,000,000, as compared with $9,170,878 T»
celvad last year, on account ot variove dits-
twikteer eauew. As^ beitwesn toe two yaara,
the» la no donbt our revenue this year from
tha* loOToe will be less. From mlsflellaneouB
Boitrces I anticipate oer wvwiuo will be $10,-
800,000; or $89,800,000 In all, ^

^ 9f»^ macb fnir the nrvenue^ Oa< th<i Mber
imiid, wv &etK«]i espeuulture up to th© 3lst
Mareh% on aeeorait of consolidated fund

amoooted to $92,967,258, whieli is ^lst on
about a tovef with last year, if we take into
accotut the fact that toere is a quarter's
post office expeuditune of last year which
d(«s not appear this year but will come in
at a later stage of the accounts. We ma*t
add to the outlay against us the expendi-
tures which will be imposed upon us in con-
nection with the opendng of the Yukon dis-
trict and tlie maintenaoco of law and order
in that territory. &o, to be on the safe aide,
I put the total consolidated fund expendi-
ture for the curr^t Uscal year at $88,700,-
000. If this estlmtate proves correct, and it
we receive the estimated revonoe of $&0,800,-
000, the buB>iiiiee» of thki year, closing the
80th June next, will end with a surplus of
$550,000.

My aim and eapootation in that reapeat
are that we ehall have in this current year
a surplus which wiil wipe out the dedoit of
last year, and leave a balance, poealbliy even
a larger balance then I would now cane to
state, on thei right elde. I feel confident that
this is a safe and oonaervotive estimate of
the result of the year's operations. Some
features of the year's business have been so
abnormaJ, there Las developed such buey-
ancy In trade, that I should not be surpriasd
if the outcome of the year sihould be more
favourabtei than I have indicated. The total
coTUBKxIldated fund expbndiltuTe for the current
year I have Just eetiniated at $88,750,000,
or some $400,000 over last year's actual ex-
penditure. Tbo reasons for this are to be
found In the additional intefreart on the pub-
lic dettt that bajs to be paid tm account of
the loan of lost autumm, the necessary out-
lay in connection with the opening up of tdw
Tolcon dlstmict. an Inoreased outlay resulting
from a vigonous policy to be pursued In the
I>eiwirtmerit of Agricukuva, and also in the
branch of the Department of the Interior
which has special reference to Immigration.
The extenadon of .|he Intercolonial Bailway
to Montreal will also go to swell our gross
etxpendjitum, althoui^ I am assured by my
hon. friend the MlnJstwr o! Ballways that
the increased outlay will be otilaet by In-
crea<«d receipts that will accrae trom the
working of the <)xten«riiou. Although our bor-
rowings in London, last Octdb«r, as I shall
show, weire less tlkan halt the amount au-
thorized, and it might be supposed ther<4o(e
that we fihiould have occasion again to resort
to temporwo-.v loans at am early day, I am
glad to b«> able to say that, owtog to the
bnoy»Ttey ot trade amiA ot revenne, our Ssum-
eihl position has heoome so strong that I Ao
aot anticipate that it will be necessary, dup-
Ihg the current year, to iseue a single Tmh-
sury bill or borrow any money in acy shape
or form. y *

I dmtn now to refer to the debt statenwat
tor 1896-97. On the 80th Jxtna, 1896, oor
aftt debt stood at $258,497,482.77. As a re-
sult of the year's operat4o»S| it has been io-

tai fust on
e take Into
a quarter's
rear wihleb
111 come Id
We most
e expendl-
1 us in con-
Yukoo dto-

and order
le safe »ide,
id expondlr-
it 188,750,-
rect, a»d II
al f&9,800,-
losing tb«

surplus of

ixAt reapsMt
urrent year
he deAoit of
ossiibly even
aow ca«e to
tnfidecvt tbait

eBtlm<ate> of
iK)ot. Some
lave been «o

Buch btti»y-
be surpr1a»d
lid be more
I. The tot«il
r the current
J88,750,000,
•'s actual ex-
hie are to be
on the pub-

aeoount of
geesary out-
iDig up of ti3o
lay i«Hultdu8
iraued In the

also iQ tbe
the Interior
ImmilgTatton.
nlal Railway
rell our groee
suved by my
llweys that
! olteet by to-
ne trom the
ough our bor-
Nsr, as I i!(ball
3 amoonit au-
leeid therstoce
giatn to reeort
y day, I am
wtoif to the
me, our SsuiMr
KHig that I 4o
leceiwary, dur-
a stegte Tre«r

In acy shape

lebt stateraeot
L*, 1896, oar
j.Tt. iuiiire.
t has been l«-

cramed by 18,041,168.69, the Aetatls of

which are as follows : —

Expenditure on Capital Ac-
count and on Oanadian Pa-
cific Railway »8,619,875 59

DeAOt of the year 519,981 44

Railway subsildiea 416,966 80

RebelH'CMi in the N.W.T 8,284 64

Consolidated Fund' transfers,
inclurllitg llabilttdes incur-
red prior to 80th June,
1896, Poet OflBce Depart-
ment 682,880 62

Total 6,142,^77 49

L eno SlnkJmg Fund inyest-
ments 2,101,818 80

Net tncrease 8,041,168 69

Making the iteit debt on
80th June, 1897 f 261 ,588,696 46

For the curreint fiscal year, I find we have
expended up to the Slst March on* capital
accoc^int, for railway sirbsiidieH and for die-
counts and charges In connectSon with the
laitB loan, »n all f4,606,186. lo compleite
the jnear's requVremoewts on capital account
and railway subsidies l*. is estimated that
we frtmfT need fa,000,OOO, making a total of
?7,506,18.'5. In order to ascertain the net
increase of our debt, we must deduct iChe
stnkimg fund investments which are eetimat-
ed to amount to $2,800,000 and ewtimated
swrplus of 1507,000, leaving an increase in
tfce net debt of $4,500,000 in round numbers
kyr the year 1897-98.

Mr. CLANCY. Where am the chaere ?

Mr. MACLEAN. We are sitting on them.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. We pro-
pose *hat hom. gentlemen opposite shall con-
tinue to sit on those chairs for a long time
yet. With regard to the flscali year fcegin-
nlng on the Ist July neat and ending on the
80th JiMie, 1899, it is, of course, too early
at tails day to estimate In more than genaral
terms. However, I do not think that, so
far as the custom® revenue is concerned, wo
should fall behind this year's income, which
I have ewtimated at $21,000,000. We have
to remember, of course, that on the lj»t July
this year the second stage of our preferen-
tial tariff will be reached, and the rednctkm
of 12H per cent ab-eady accrued will be fol-
lowed by a further TOductiooi of 12% per
cent, mtaking a total of 26 par oeait^ The
first oneducticm ol 12f4 per cenrt was, per-
hAps, aiot large enougtfi to make any great
change in the stnream of BrlfcMi Impoirte. Be-
sides it takies time tor the Britteh merchant*
to understBJid the opcatatloai of these tarill
chaaiijee, and lust about thn mnrratf wfesE
he beeame awaro of tl!3 rbJucdon, aaid waa
preiiared to deal with it, the difcnlty ^vom
wifai reBpeot to the Belgium aod Oenn'^D

treattes, which reinlted In the eo-ce"-^ pt^
fenrence being for a time extended tc a lar0S
number of countries', and thereiore Qreait
Britain was not in a poadtion to at joy t>M
12V^ per cent reduction as fully as we had
expected and desired.

Mr. FOSTER. The difficulty arose betom
that, did it not ?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. No, only
in the minds of my hon. friends oppo-
site. There are no dlfHcultijs In this ques-
tion on thl« Slide of the House; there wetrs
difficulties which my hon. trieods opposite
tor years sought to remove without vuecess,
and wihieh have been removed by this Gov-
ernment. I expect, therefore, that when
the full reduction of 25 per cent, takee place,
when the preference is confined, as it will
t>e, to imports from the motfatr coimtry
and from certain British colonies to wbici)
I shall) Teter, I expect >there will be a con-
siderable increase in imports tram Great
Britain, and on these imports we shall re-
ceive a sfmaller amount of revenue than we
have hKheffto received. With a view to maln-
tabntng our position as a sound one flntfun-
clally, fb upholding our credit and guarding
against deficits, it win' be the part of wl»-
dom to Bntiolpate loee of revenue in that re-
spect by makihg some increase to the re-
venue in otfheir quartea:8 and of that I will
speak later on. Excise should provide at
leai^t aight and onet-half imlUioin, and iroin
miacollaneoue sources, making due allowan-
ces for IncreaM in railway receipts, trasn
post oi^oe and interest on inveetmentsi, we
should receive eleven million dollars. These
I eatlmaite will give us a total revenue ol
$40,500,000. 1 am epeaklng now of the
year baginning on the Ist of July next, con-
cerning which, of course, our estimates will
have to be of a very general character, with
very little opportumitlee of coming to cloae
quarters, not such opportunities as we have
with regard to the cwrresnw year. We hnve
laid on the Table of the House the Eetimaitee
for 1898-99, to the extent of $39,124,000.
These Estimates include two new items, one
of $396,000 for th» eacpemse of the Yukon dte-
trict, and another of $760,000 for the run-
ning expemaes of the Intercolonial Railway
extension to Montreal, Under our method
of keeping accounts, the Increased coBt of '
operating the Intercolonial Railway ha* tg
be added to our general expenditure, even
though it might be a source of profit to us
r^iceented by an Incrsase on the other M^
of the account. These two new items for tiie
Yukon and for the Intercolonial Railway,
Items whidi wer6 mt necessary In our past
Eetlmiatee, but that w* all recognize are ne-
eeasary now, awJonnt.to $1,106,000. If we

».«—»-*, w^»jm« jt-t. w«U> v»*«^ V\#fc«*i «UUl<V#KAItl. vfl LUKJ 4MB***

matee, it will Z>e found that the remaia^gar,
$88,168,000, is about the same, as asked Sor
In the main Estbnaiteis for the eurrmt year.

In April la*t, In the courae of my rh-
marka on the financial ouUook, i exp m m o A
my bedler that when th« details o( th«
tariff w«re once Mttled and annoanced,
trade would noit onfly oontlnue to flow In Ita
luraal channelo, but that w« miglit expect
a largie liioreeMi. Whem those words were
uttamd, the circumetance* i^ba/t I then en-
amoraited pointed uminifvtiakalbly In ittuta direc-
tion. The ffood harveAt, howerver, and In-
creaMd prices have alnce that time lent
their force to the ttde of events, and the
period of resultiing prosperity tbwt Otunadia
la and has been for some time pa«t enjoy-
ing must be indeeid gmtlfying to every
hon. member of this Houses and to every
citisen of Canada, nnd miurt confirm the
conviction tihat we all have as to the great

posa4biUtteB of the tntare development of
our country.

I am sure, Mr. Spealter, you will bear with
ni« wtieai I turn aside for a moment to enum-
eratip a fow of the directiouB in whf h this
development and pro«peirity have made them-
8elv«H felt. I propose to spealc flrst as an il-
lustmartloii ot tlie incrBased prosperity ot the
coauitry, of the Increased bueineee of ttie
country — I propose to spealt of the deposits
In the banlu. In the bank circulation the
effect has t>eein most pronounced. I ii«ed no*
vvei»ry the House by giving the details of the
bank statements, but I may present a table
showing the depositiB In the chartered banks
for the past six yeairs, together with the
totals :

|.-

30th June, 1892

30th June, 1893

30th June, 1894

30th June, 1895

30th June, 1896

30th June, 1897

3lBt December, 1897

Chartered
Banks.

$ 160,942,778
170,817,433
174,930,936
180,664,121
183,769,992
201,141,688
222,002,147

Qovt. Savings
Banks.

$ 39,529,5^7
41, 48,658
43,036,012
44,450,498
46,799,318
48,934,975
49,466,656

Total.

$ 200,472,326
212,667,091
217,966,948
225,114,619
230,569.310
250,076,663
271,468,803

That is to «ay, that in the six months from
June last to December the deposits have
Increased by over |21,000,000.

To carry on the increased bus-lness of the
country there has teen a very heavy demand

for Dominion notes and bank notes, which
the elasticity of our banking system has
been fully able to meeit>. I append tlie flgures
relating to note circulation for six years
past :

3l8t October, 1892
3lBt October, 1893
3l8t October, 1894
3l8t October, 1895.
3l8t October, 1896
3l8t October, 1897,

GovernmenJ.

Banks.

Total.

$ 38,688,429
36,906,941
34,516,651
34,671,028
36,955,150
41,580,928

$ 18,647,063
19,844,248
22,212,884
22,893,25§
21,607,563
24,751,932

$ 57,335,492
56,751,189
, 56,729,536
57,564,287
57,562,703
66,332;86a

Mx. FOSTER. May I ask my hon. friend
if Ihe took the some date < in each case for
the Ghovsa-oment bank figures ?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE,
figures in both cased are tor the
October, isya, and oontinning at
ickate tueh year.

The October oircutatlon, which is, as a

Tee, the

8lBt of

t'le same

rule, the highest of the year, on account oT
the moving of the cropd, ran about 56 or 57
mllUous of dollars for the year 1896 and the
four preceding yewrs. The bMl'ieee of Octo-
ber, 1897, required over 68 nrillllons, or an
Increase of close to nine millions over 1896,

The volume of the generRi buslnees of the
country was such as to very marlcedly in-

pmeot of

beau> W'lifa
: to enum-
hl h thl«
adto tbem-
: M an 11-
Ity ot tbe
e of the
e depoalta
itlon tha
; iveed no'
alls of th«
nt a tabla
!red baoka
with the

Total.

100,472,326
12,667,091
17,966,948
25,114,619
130,669.310
60,076,663
71,468,803

a, which

stem hae

the fi'guiree

six years

Total.

7,335,492
i6,75l,189
i6,729,535
i7,564,287
.7,562,703
i6,^32586&

.ccount of
t 56 or 57
J6 amd the
B of Octo-
rans, or ao
)ve» 1896.

BSB of the
irk»dly ta-

creaee the aggreiffate bask daarlogs ot the
five principal citlee— Montreal, Toronitio,
Halifax, Winniipeg and HamlHon. The tcntel
cleaHuifs fur the thirae years, 18U5 1890, and

1897, according ts th© "Monetary Time*,"
were :

' 1895 ♦1,089,967,000

1896 1,036,960,000

1897 1,161,906,000

or an lnct«a«e of 1126,000,000 In the clear-
ings of 1897 over 1796. For the four week-
ly periods— ending Thursday — In January,

1898, tibe total clie^triitgs were 1108,509,673,
against ^89,901,000 for the similar pertodiB
of Janua..^ , 1897, or an Imorease of oveir

'♦18,000,000. For February last, the total
dleanings for the Ave cltlee mentloined wene
$108,385,802, as oompiared with 174,612,-
552 lor Fehruapy, 1897,. nn increase of |88,-
772,760.

Tha raiHwayiB, too, have experlecccKl the
b€Ui«fits of this upward mioTMnent In trade,
and the published traffic returns are an In-
dex of the eattent of the betterment so far
as they are cctncemeid. From let July to
the end of February laet, the wrekly state-
mont« of the two great railways of Canada
srhow continual and steady increafhC? over
the corresponding weeks of last year. Th»
groas recedpte of the Canadlam Pacific Eall^
way for the ye«ir ending aist Deceraiber,
1897, were f24,0+9,53:t, against |20,-
681,596 for the pn-evlous year. The gross re-
ceipts of the Grand Trunk Hallway, accord-
ing to thedr weekly retuims, for the same
period were $19,521,588, -against $18,781,-
885 for the previous year. The Increnae In
the earnings of th© roads la mainly attribut-
able to thedr freight and live stock business.
The Share and bondholders have, of couroe,
profited by the Improvement In the earning
capacitiee of the roads, and the market
values of their securities have advanced by
bounds. Take the Oanadlan Pacific Railw«,y
ordtnairy $100 shares. The closing price of
Decern b«r, 1896, was 66%: the lowest price
of 1897 was 46%, and the latest December
price was 83%. The cloeliug price on 29th of
January last, according to the "Economist,"
was 91%.

In G-rand Trunk securities the advance
wiaa equally mairked. Taking their 4 per
eent guaranteed and their hrat preference
stocks, I find the lowest price of 1897 waa
89% and 30% respectively, while on the 29th
*«3Hiat7 they were quoted at TQMt, 77% and
67% to 68% respeofclve'ly.

Taking the Oanadlan Pacific Hallway
stocks quoted in the "Ecofnomlert," and the
principal Grand Trunk lB»ues, I find that
securities of these two railways to the nom-
inal Talne of £88,187,497 were worth on the
market ; On Slst December, 1895, £48,-
814,887; on Slst December. 1896. £n()..
480,618; on Slst December, 1897. £62.-
«1T,910.

I will DO'S.' take a fvw flgares frooi 4»m
Trade BeturiM tor 1796-97.

The total value of the importa Into Cabk
ada for the year amounted to $119,218,609,
whioh is nearly a million and a quartar of
dollars In exoeas of the previous year, and
over eiij^ mlUlona in exceaa ot the 4aoal
year 1894*-96.

Canada's export trade during the year waa,
by far, the largest and greatest In lt« hia-
tory. The total Talioe of the exporta U»e tha
year amounted to the sum of $187,960,258,
which ia over 16 miyiona of dollars In ex-
cess of the pretvlous y^ear, ami 24 miUlooa In:
exceas of the fiscal year 1894-95.

The t'otal value of the Imports for homa
consumption, exclusive of coin and bullion,
foir the edgiht montba of tbe currant yeiar, up
to the end ot Fetbruary, amounted to $80,-
821,881, which is $127081.880 in exoeaa ot
tb«> corresponding period of the last fiacal
year.

Including cokt and bullion, the Importa
for home conaumptton for tha eight montha
amounted to $83,785,787, whiich ia $.^ ' -
506,815 In excess of the corxtesp Tndlo^f ~j|^:'^
lod of tbe last tlscal year. '

The total exports for the eight mcntha
amounted to $119,644,464, which is $26,-
451,521 in exceaa of the export trade tor tbe
corPBBpondimg period ot last year, and which
Is also in excels of the export trade tor tmj
whole year in the history ot Canada, prior
to 1896.

Whlh we have thu« placed before ua tha
many en^dences of the growing prosperity
of Canada, let us not be unmindful of the
chief causes of this happy condition of
affairs. Tlie general business of Canada has
been prosperous because prosperity hae come
lo the great agricultural ctess. There have
been some mistaken notions in tihe paat as
to relatione between maaaufactureim and agrl-
cnltin«. The Idea exiertxMl In some quarters
that we could build up a prosperous farming
community by stimulatiJng manufactuireB.
The h.ome market was everything. Caa*-
ada for the Canadians was the cry. There
are some things in- which It ia well tq
have Can-ada for the Canadians, but we
would dto well to put a wise limitation ca
the meaning of the expreaalon, and seek for
prosperity through the markets of the
wortd. I think the country has awakened
to the fact that, in the effort to make pvoth-
perity for the trrmers through tibe stimuiet-
Ihg of manufactures, the cart w«a bedi^
placed before the horse. If we cam fill up
the farm lands of Canada with lndus±i4eB,
prosperous and happy settlera, producing,
not for the home market only, but^ tor the
markets of t*e world, we eimll Imve tbe
truest possible foundation tea' a imccessfu}
raa/mifacturtng Industry a»d for gvmerai
prnspArity, Let us tiien while w^ rs'olce is
these flgTires which I have the privilege of
presenting to «» Houae, amd wT*lIe we »•

]ok!«i in this p«io»perlty, tot ue pemeanbeir
tiiot that prosperity is due chiefly to the
Bucoem of the fanmer, amd let ub see that by
every rea»oni»ble amd proper eiMoirt we Bball
emdieaTOQr to emcoura^ the cbevetopmeait of
agrieulture ttoroirgJiout the Doanlulcni of Oan-
ada.

I f' ii© imow to dnaw the «ibtie««tio(n of ithe
HO' -though it may h* ueceBBary only a»
a m .T of form — to the new loan which
I bad the ploaaure ol raieing on the Loodon
mflirkeit tost autmnm. • You will recolteot
that a Lodm Act wa» passed last sesaloin for
fl5,O0O,COO. Theire were outataodlng bor-
row ]ia«; powers at that time to the amooint
of iipwfijrfto of $8,000,000, and that itogertheir
wltk our power* under the Act of last see-
Bion, gare u» b«»frowl'nig powers to the
ajaount qf upwards of 123,000,000. The
objects of theee laxge borrowing powers are
well hnown. We had enteo-ed upom teirge
expeaditures In respect to canals; we had
Incurred cansildieiiable obligations in resptect
of railways, and it was necessary to make
pDOTfasion for these as the obltgatloais might
arise. I may say that at the time the Loan
Bill was beifoie the House last sesaion, the
bBpresnion upon the mlmxte of some hon.
geotkanen was that the fl5,000,000 was
ratter teas than we should require. How-
ever that may be, taking tne f 15,000,000
wMc'x Parllaimeint authorized us to bonrow,
together V7ltih tho |8,000,©00 owtatandtog
burrowing powers, we were entitled to bor-
row 128,000,000. We did not, nowevetr,
think it wlae to execeiee tivat power to t>he
full extent. We came to the conclusdbon that
it would be a wise policy to make our new
loan for a moderate amiount, and it was de-
cided that we fiihould maik< a loam for £2,-
000.000 sterltai«, or aliaut fl0,e00,000. There
wei« seveipal reasons tor that. We did feel
hopeful, in view of the growing prosperity
of the coiuntny, that we should not need to
bori^w tso large a sum as maoiy hon. gentle-
men ith«raglht would be necessary, and tbere
was the further oonsldeirattnin, that after due
delftKeraitioai we imolvied' to try a very seri-
ous experfcmeiniti — if osie can call any^lng'
like ttfiat am experiment — we retsolved to take
tlie somewhat serious step of makimg a
break in the rate of Interest in the London
maaikieit, Oa>n«da up. to that time had no se-
cp<r#lati below 3 pet oea>t, nor (htad amy ortiuer
colony. In view of the faYou<rabls condition
o( tbe «Boney ma^tket; is) view ol the high
position of CajnaKiiain credit; In view of the
general tendency towiHrds a leductlon In the
re&'i of bitisrest, we thou^i^t the time, had
ecrnn wtten we could make the expeiriiineDt
— «od9« ealted M) a bold expevimiHit— of go-

vestore to buy otir bonds nt a 2% per ceat-
basls. And, SAr, having thought that mat-
ter owt, we »afln« to the conclusloe that It
wpnld be a wise pi>licy to maJce our lireH
loan at tbat rate for a very mioderate am-

ount. We so decided for this reason: that Is
going upon the market with a new loan at
a new rate, one always has to meet a cer-
tain degree of prejudice; one will never get
in a flrwt operation of that character so
good a price as may be expected hater. Wa
thought, therefore, that If we could get
along comfortably with £2,000,000 sterling,
It would be wise to confine our loan to that
amount in order that we might eetabllsh tihe
market for our securities on a 2}^ per cent
basis, with the expectation that they would
increase in value and that at no distant
date, when It would be necessary for us tto
go on the market for the balance, we should
have our credit fairly established on the 2%
per centt. basis. Bellevtog the moment fav-
ourabh in the month of October, we ar-
RAicvged to place our loan upom the markat.
The oondittoois of th«i nuarldet up *o that tttana
had been rBHisonably favourable, but tt»
money market did take a slightly unfavwir-
able turn at the eleventh hour of our tamns-
aotlon. After oar prospectus had been Is-
sued the numey mairked hardened somewhat,
and on the very evening before our tendeni
were to be received, the B«nk of England
rate— which Is the ertandard which governs
all money traawacttons in Londoni — ^wan adh
vanced a haH per cent. Taking such a seri-
ous step as we were at that time, one might
well have some amxlety as to the result 1b
view of that umfavonrable turn. However, I
am glad to be able to state that so stirong
was the pcNaitdoni of Camada in the money
market, that whan this pnoposal was made,
even under €h at Aiomeintary adverse circum-
stance, the response of the pubUc was veiry
ftatisfactory and our loan was nicwe than
doubly suhsentbed. We placed the bondB om
the m'arket at the price of 91 and they were
taken at 91 pounds 10 shillings and 5 pence.

Contridering, Sir, that it was the first oper-
ation of the kind Ihat any colony had ever
attempted. I feel that we all have great rea-
son — and I am sure my boh. Mends opposite
will Join In my words heartily when I say
it — ^we have all gireat reaisoni to congratulate
ourselves, ImeBpective of party, upon the
very high position fheit Canadiaia cretdllt baa
taken In England. I have hei'e a statement
ahowln.*5 the rates of interest that have been
patd for the various Canadian loans since
eonfec'«Batk)n, and as It may be found use-
ful tor future reference I shall read It.

In 1869 CcjQiada issuetd a loan which waa
partly a guaranteed loan, ooie ptortioo bear-
ing 4 per cent and one 6 per oent, at a
priae which made the <K>st to Canada 4 l-S
per cent.

In 1878, anotflier loan was Issued which
was also a guaranteed I nan, and the cost
to Canada was 8 9-10tl» vm oesnt.

Of oomse 1 need hardly say that where a
loan had the guarantee of tSi» Imperial
Govteancaent the rate was mose f^vonr-i^ lf>.

Bon: that Is
WW loan at
aeet a cer-
i never g*t
i«.ract«r w>
hater. W«
could get

00 sterling,
oan to thAt
ertabl'ish tihe
4j per cent

they would
no dtetant
y for us itlo
, we should

1 on tbe 2H
losnent fav-
ber, we ar-
tfa« markart.
to that tlian«
9, but tiw
y unfavour-
if our tstfuiB-
)ad been !•-
1 somewhat,
our tendeoni
)f England
ich govefms
mi — wen aidU
euch a ewtrf-
i, one migbt
10 reeuM is

However, I
It so 8rtax>ng

the money
I was made,
'ere© clrcusn-
c was vwy
more than
le bonds on
id tbey were
a«id 6 pence.

16 first oper-
ly had ever
TO great rea-
nds opposite
ivhen I «ay
Komgratulat*
ty, upon th«
n oretddt baa
a statement
vt have been
Iioans since
I tousd uae-
eiad it.

which waa^
KJTtioo benr-
oent, at a
Canada 4 1-Q

Mued which
I'd the cost
t.

lait where a
n Imperta.)

IB 1874, a Oumadian loan doflt Canada 4%
per cent.

In 1875, a loan w^h)loh w>as partly gaawm-
teed cost 4 1-6 per eemt.

In 1876, « 4 per cent Canadian loan ooet
4% per cent.

In 1878 J a guaranteed loan cost 4 1-8 per
cent. '<

In lo?9, a Canadian 4 per cent loan cost
4% per cent.

In 1884, a 8% par cent loen cost 4% per
cunt.

In 1885, the ooat ol a 4 per cent loan was
4 l-12th in one case, and in another class
oi bonds 4 l-10«h.

In 1888, the cost of a 8 per cent loan was
^% per cent.

In 1892, the cost of a 8 per cent loan was
8 2-6 per cent.

In. 1894, the ooBt of a 8 per cent kMn waa
8 1-6 per cent.

In 1897, our 2% per cerat loan wae sold in
Ixadon at a price wbich pepreeeotfl about
3% per omt.

On the opposite column foUows a comparative
table.

I have a mora elaborate menioraindum
showing the comparisons between the vari-
ous Canadian loans tor aome yeare, and this
comparision* has usually found a place in
tihe Budget speech. If the Hohbki will pv-
mit me I shall, without neading it, have It
inoorporated fn the statekment so that it may
be con-venient for future mference.

MEMO, re CANADIAN LOANS.

Amount of

O ID

Price realized j

Actual rate

of interest

paid.

Loan.

per

£100

■

1869...

•1,500,000
600,000

106

1873...

•1,500,000
•300,000

41
4/

104

1874...

4,000,000

1875...

•

•i,6oo,oeo

1,000,000

1876...

2,500,000

91..

1878...

•1,500,000
1,600,000

1879...

.3,000,000

4
4

1884...

5,000,000

1886...

4,000,000

101

1885...

r Canada

4,^

i 6,443,1.%

1888...

4,000,000

1892...

2,260,000

1894...

2,250,000

1897...

2,000,000

2i 91

•Guaranteed.

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Mr. FOSTER. Has my li«ai. friend (Mr.,
Fielding) finlMhed hie trmerkm on the loaai
bvftiaefiB ?

Tlie MINISTER OF FINANCE. Far the
praaent; there is one point turtfaetr, but I
shell be glad to have my bon, trleittd (Mr.
Foster) ask me aqy qumtllon cow.

Mr. FOSTER. Would my hon. trtend
(Mr. Fiedding) lay tfhe prospiectafl on the
Tttble?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. I tinal]
be very glad to.

Mr. FOSTER. What was the lengKb of tbe
lest loan ?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. Fifty
years. There Is one other element in oon-
■ necrtlon with that loaoi to which I may
make a passing referemce. Not only was k
desdrable that we shonld have our l^dan
placed on a 2Mi I>er cent liasis, It possible,
(or the sake of the transaotkxn itself, but
such a change to the 2Vii per cent rate . be-
came of further importance in view of the
eai^ly maturity of a large amount of our ex-
isting loans.

By reteirance to page Ixiv. of the PubUc
Accouiit», it will be found thaib between the
ynaoiB 1908 oind 1910, we sAiall have loians
maturing to the aisount of £84,448,136, or
9167,628,262. To asetst in meeting the
payment of these liabilities, I estimate that
we sftiall ba^e accumulateKl sinking funds to
the value of $«^6,971,181. So that we shall
have to renew or convert the balance of
these maturing loans to the amount of over
1100,000,000. The neft raite of Interest on
cm* last loan, taking into account all char-
ges, was 2.86 per ccrot. At the rate of in-
terest which these loans that are to m<aiture
now bear, it would take about 94,000,000
to pay a yeajr's interest on the 9100,000,000;
buit ait tihe rate of 2.86 per cen.t the Initereait
on the 9100,000,00© would amount to 92,-
860.000, or a difference of 91,140,000. That
8 to say, if the mon«c^ market when these
various loans mature should prove as fav-
ourable to Canada as it was when we placed
our recent loai , there would be a saving of
interest to the extent of over 91,000 000 per
year, as compared with the rate ct interest
which these loans now bear. We may reaHon
ably hope to effect that saving, and some-
thing more; for we all anticipate, I am sure,
that tbe credit of Canada, high as it is now,
will continue to Improve, and that before the
date is reached at which these loans fall In,
we shall be able to borrow, not simply at
the TAOe of 2.86 p^ oenit, as w« did laslt
year, but at a rate which will come much
closerr to 2H per cent, wihich will be tim faoB
value of the secirities. I think, theUi in
view of these large maturing loans, as well
as from the nature of the recent transaction
itself, hon. gentlemen on both sides of the
House will have been pleased to learn that

we took ths step of placing a av^ per eezit
loan on the market; and I am glad to know
that the transaction waa not a subject of
party dispute, but that Its success was re-
cognixed by the press of the country irre-
spective of party.

I shall now address myself to a question
which was brought very forcibly to my
mind ead to the minds of my colleagues of
the Tariff Commission during our investiga.
tions a year ago. Among the many com-
plaints which were made to us by manufac-
turers and business men as to the disadvant-
ages under which they laboured, one promin-
ent complaint was that the cost of capital
was considerably in excess of what many of
their rivals and competitors had to pay. A
very lorg* amount of the business of the
country is carried^on by credit, and the cost
of money to the merchant and the manufac-
turer Is a very serious consideration. It
might be said that this is a matter with
which the Government has little oi nothing
tjo dK> — (that lb iis a matter whiich mustt 'be
left to the general law of demand and sup-
ply. But a littla examira»tion will aLow tthaA
In some 'rrays the Government have the
p^iwer of influencing the money market, and
that, in fact, the money market has been !&•
fluenced to aome extent by the policy of the
Government, The ban(cs of the country are
borrowers as well as lenders. The banks re-
ceive from the public a large amount of capi-
tal which they use in the business of the
country in the way of loans. This capital
is in the form of deposits, and when the
banks have to pay an unreasonably high
rate of inteaieet on deposits, ibteA is a reasoa
—at all events, it is an excuse — for their
n< ' gdving lower nates of disconnt to itbe
bublness men of the country. It has been
said that the position of the banks in this
respect has been a forced position. It has
been said that they have been obliged in
times past to pay more than a lair value
for money, because the Government of the
country has been doing so. I suppose it will
be generally admitted that in the Govern-
ment savings banks we have been for a
long time paying a little more than the fair
value of money; and some gentlemen may say
that we ought to do so in the savings
banks. But I do not think we ought to ac-
cept that position. I think the savings banks
of the country were designed to afford a place
of safe deposit to the people Interested In
that class" of institution. By the way, I am
inclined to 'think that the original design of
the savings banks as a place in which the
thrifty classes could put their small savings,
has been long since lost sight of, and a very
large proportion of the money in the sav-
ings bank does notrepreeent that class of
de-poeihoirB at -all. However that may be, we
find that the Government in past yoan
have b«*n paying a Ifttle more than the
value of mooegr in the way of iatemeirt on

saylngB bank deposits ; and we came to
the conclusion, after careful conaideratloB
of the matter, that it w£M desirable, is the
interest of the business of the country, in
the Interest of successful manufacturing, In
ith© iinletnefit of every man w'no toad to carry
on his business t* so'^ue extent with .bor-
rowed capital, that wo should not have an
artificial value of .aoney in Canada, bat that
a man should be able to borrow according to
the reasonable laws of demand and supply.
We belle' '^d that it was a desirable thing to
encourage to some extent the savings bank
deporists, and we remembered that the num-
ber of those deposits was' large and thai the
advantage to thb depositors was a matter of
•ame impooitHncei: but we came to tbe coticUi-
Bion that the Interest of the greatest number
of the people demanded that we should not
pay to the savings bank depositors a larger
rate of interest than the reasonable value of
money. Therefore, in July last we reduced
the savings bank rate of Interest from 8% to
8 per cent. Although It was not a matter
of public criticism, there were some who felt
at the time that it was a policy which would
probably lead %o large withdrawals -of money
from the savings banks. Such, however,
did not prove to be the fact. I believe, as a
result of that reduction, that there wa« some
reduction in the cost of capital throughout
the country — not univeroally, but to some
extetirt. Th« bankB of the countiry have ifthetbr
different classes of customers, of varying
credit. There Is the inner circle, who can
get their discounts at pretty good rates; there
Is the next circle, who do not get them at
so good a rate; and there is the outer circle
who are glad to get them on any terms at
all. I think that the inner circle, the class of
corporations and business men who are in a
very sound financial condition, already ap-
preciate the reduction that has come to them
in the rate of interest. Since that time an in-
cident nas occurred which has led us to go
a ettep further. We dild noti itihinfc it wa« wtate
to make so radical a reduction as from 8% to
2% per cent at once; but we did make the
ivl^citiloin to 8 p*r cemti; ajud etoce we ha/ve
boeor able *o place on the money marke*
our own securities bearing a 2% per cent
rate, we thought we should regard that as a
standard value of money, and that we ought
not to pay a rate in excess of that. We know
that it costs about % of 1 per cent to man-
age the deposits, and if you add that to the
3^ per cent to be allowed upon them, you
will be paying 2% per amit, wihilch la aibou*
the same as we are paying for our money In
the English market.

An hon. MEMBER. Less.

la right — a fraction less. But, as I
already stated, 'we expect the securi-
ties of Canada to advance in value. 1
have pointed out that in making a new loan

'at a reduced rate of interest, we suffer
some disadvantage at the moment; hot
we all expect — barring temporary difflcul*
ties, wars and rumours of wat-, which we
hope may soon t)as8 away — that the securi-
ties of Canada will increase in value at a
very early date; and we may fairly regard
a fraction above 2\ii per cent as the rate at
which Canada can borrow all the money
she requires. If therefore we pay the deposit-
or 2V^ per cent, for his money and pay \i of
1 per cent fkn- the mfiinagcgnemt of the sav-
ings hank, we are practically paying him.
2% for the money, and at a very early day
we shall no doubt be able to borrow money-
at that rate in England. We therefore pro-
pose that on the 1st of July next th^re-
shall be a further reduction of V^ per cent
in the interest pe^able to depoeltiors!, makifhc:
the rate 2^ per cent.

Mr. 8PROULE. A grand stroke of busi-
ness for the poor man.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. My hon.
fri :]d, no doubt, thinks that there are many
poor men who have their money in the post
office savings bank, bat there are many more
poorer men who are paying the Interest,
and who have no money in the saving*
banks. And the question is, whether a lim-
ited number of poor men shall be paid a
higher rate at the expense of a larger num-
ber of poorer mem who have no money tO'
put in the savings banks. I quite sympa-
thize with the desire of my hon. friend to pay
a good round rate of interest, but I think
he will agree with me that a very large
amount of the money in the savings banika
to-day belongs to a class of people who do
not neeed any sympathy from us, but are-
ver.r well able to look after themselves..
And as far as the other depositors are con-
cerned', if we gjlve thean the ser-uTlty of tbm
public credit, and pay them 2% per oenit,
besides the other 1/4 per cent which the
management c©sts us, 1 think we are dealing
fairly and justly with them. But 1 (Jo not
put it before the House in that light only..
The main ground I am arguing on is thlSy that
it is not merely an advantage to the Trea-
sury — though that is a point not to be lost
sight of — but that the rate of interest we an
now paying on savings banks deposits has a
material effect on the cost of money to the
business community at large in the Domin-
ion; and if, by this step, we can brini;
about — not hastily, but gradually and surely
— a reduction in thp cost of capital to the
merchant, the manufacturer, and to every
man who has to go to a bank to borrow
money, we believe we shall be doing 8om»>
thing which is for the good of the whole
country.

1. ox-xvV^ CI u£j. jLJuv uusuuuui cuaF{$«a uy

the banks since the last redaction has been
lust as high as ever; so that the reductloa
Imub iKut r«RuM«id as the hoo. g«tiftlem>aci pnn-
dteta It will.

t, we Buffer
loment; but
•ary difflcul*
, which we
Lt the aecnrl-
value at a
airly regard
i the rate at
. the money
• the depoeit-
nd pay % of

of ltil« BAY-

paylng htm
■y early day
rrow money
herelore pro-
next th^rt-
( Yi per cent
tlor», maikfikg-

>ke of busl-^

My hon^
jre are many
r in the post
) many more
be Interest,
the 8aTlng»
lether a Um-

be paid »
arger nnm-
3 money tO'
ulte flympa-
friend to pay
but I think

very large-
vlngs baokfr
sople who do
us, but are-

themeelyei..
ore are con-
UTlty of Idle
1% per cent,

which the
} are dealing
it I do not
t light only..

> is thtey that

> the Trea-
>t to be loet
erest we ar<t
posits has a
aoney to the

the Domin-

can bring
y and surely
ipltal to th»
1 to every

to borrow
doing 8om»>

the wbolv

charges by
« has been
be reduction
utlenxao pm-

Th* MINISTEK OF FINANCE. I am
afraid the difBculty most be that my hon.
friend and 1 belong to the outer class which
osmtnot dlctarte to the beake, because I have
reason to believe that that favoured Inner
circle Is already receiving som«j advantage.
But 1 do not put it on that ground alone.
If that inner circle were receiving the ad-
vantage, and nobody else, then I would not
argue that the step was a very advantageous
one in the sense I mention. But we all know
that the rates of Interest do not change in a
moment, and, if the borrower who now pays
e per o<3Bit, eaa got a lower rate— my infor-
mation Is, and I believe it, that many are
getting their dlHcounts done at lower rates
than twelve months ago — although for the
pt«sent the advantage may be confined to
that favoured inner circle, I believe it will
gradually work out of it and my hon. friend
and myself may some day get the benefit.

Mr. FOSTER. Is there any hope of our
getting into that inner circle ?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. Not while
we are in politics.

I want to say somiertihtng now with reigBjti
to the tariff poUcy of last y«ar. I find that
there it) a change of front on the part of some
hon. gentlemen opposed to the Government
on that question. When the tariff policy was
•ranouiiceKl laat year, tib« Uonservative speak-
ers and organb — I remember particularly an
article in a leading organ of public opinion in
Toronto, — took the ground that we were
making changes which were threatening the
business interest of the country, that the
business of the country could not stand the
policy which this Government had enacted.
The Conservative speakers and organs told
us that we were going to destroy the great
industries of the country. Well, Mr. Speak-
er, the cry has changed to-day. Looking
over the year's operations under that tarUf,
and finding that the business of the country
has gone on Increasing and expanding every
day, finding that that cry cannot any longer
be used, these hon. gentlemen have turned
around and say : You did not make any
changes in the tariff at all; you have the old
National Policy after all. Well, each of these
claims is unjust. We made a change In the
tariff — a change that was moderate and rea-
sonable, a change that guarded against rash
disturbances, but which, nevertheless, effected
substantial reductions on the rates of duty,
so that the tariff of the country is no longer
the old National Bollcy. I wish to remind
the House that in the old tariff, which hon.
gentlewien opposite admire so much, there
were apeclflc duties which ran up as high as
40 and 50, and I do not think I go too far
when I say, @0 per ceEt of the value of ' the
article. All these high duties, at all events
a great many of them, have been rw^oved.
MBijy o! the articles which lo fotEQer tii!i«s
paiM a duty, «nd«r tbe old tariff, of 40 and
60 per oemt, and as high as 60 pea* cent, will

be found scheduled in the present tariff at 35
por cent, subject to a forthar reduction,
under the preferential clause^ so that, as be-
tween the old and the present general tariff
there is a considerable reduction of duties on
a number of articles. And, whem you take
into account the reduction which has taken
place, and which villi be increused on the
first of July next, by the operation of the
second stage of the preferential tariff, you
will find that this Gpvernment has given the
country a very substantial m aure of tariff
reform. 1 hold a list of about sixty Items
taJien from the harlff. I might nave made
the llfct much larger, but that sixty will Ik.
sufficient for my illustration, and, perhaps,
hooK gentlemein opposite will noft wa2it to
listen to the whole list. The only reason 1
ask them to do so Is, to get the list on
•♦Hansard," but if, after I have read from
the list a few minutes, they will dispense
with my proceeding further

Mr. FOSTER. Read it through.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. My hon.
friend Is relentless; but other hon. gentle-
men on that side may not be so irsistent.

Mr. FOSTER,
can get it on the

Thait is the only way yoo
'Hansard."

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. My hon.
friend used to get some things into "Han-
sard" which he did not read in his Budget
speech, and I hope he will not object to my
being given the same privilege.

Animals, living, n.e.s. — Dndei the old tariff
the rate is 20 per cent. Under our general
present tariff the rate is 20 per cent.; but If
they should come in under the preferential
clause, It will.be 17H per cent., and, after
the tirat of July, the ircute will be 15 percent,
as against 20 per cent under the old tariff.

Mr. FOSTER,
pect many ?

Does my hon. friend ex.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. Not very
many; but, such as they are, they wlH re-
ceive the benefit of tariff reform. There are
a few cases in which you cannot expect the
articles to come under the preferential tariff^
because they will not come from Great Bri-
tain or the countries entitled to that pre-
ference. That is a fair criticism, and I do
not want to urge that In every one of the
cases the preferential rate will apply, but
It will to most of the arttclra on this Hst.
There are very few cases In which I quote
a rate In which he importer will not re-
ceive the benefit of the preferential clause.
The following is the list : —

Statement showing the Old Tariff Rate, the New General Tariff Rate, the Preferential
Tariff Rate to the 30th Jui-s 1898, and the Preferential Tariff Rate from Ist July,
1898, on certain prhicipal ar+^'^lea ;

V V

11
125

276
540
325
180

360

371
362
368

312

447
294

Articles.

Animals, living, N. E. S

Books, printed, periodicals and
paniphletP, or parts thereof,
N.E.S., not to include blank
account l)Ooks, copy books or
books to be written or drawn
on

Rmw, manufactures of, N.B.S . .

Indian corn not for distillation . .

Bicycles and tricycles

Coal, bituminous, &o....

Cotton fabrics, printed, dyed or

coloured, N.O.P

Cotton sewing thread on spools.
Cotton clothing, including corsets
Cotton velvets, velveteens and

plush fabrics, N.E.S.

Curtainn, when made up,trimmed

or untrimmed •

Drugs, dyes and chemical3,N.O .P
Electric apparatus, parts of, elec-
tric light cables, electric bat-
teries '

Old Tariff
Bate.

20 p. c...

6c. p. lb. .
80 p. c

7ic. p. bush

30 p. c

60c. p. ton of
2,000 lbs.

30 p.c...
25 « ....
32J " ....

SO " ....

30 « ....
20 « ....

General
Pr£3ent Tariff,

20 p.

10 "...
30 " ...
Free ..... .

30 p. c ..
53c. p. ton of
2,000 lbs.

36, p, c.
26 "
36 "

30 "

36
20

Preferential

Tariff

to 30th June,

1898.

17ip. c,.,

8| " ..
26i « ..

Free

26i p.c.
46| c. p. ton of
2.000 lbs.

30| p.c.

21i " .

30| " .

26i « .

30| " ,

17i " .

211 "

Preferential

Tariff

from Ist July,

1898.

15 p. c

22| «
Free
22^ p.c.
39|c. p. ton of
2,000 lbs.

26i p. c.
18* '•
26i '*

22J "

26J "
15 "

18| «

I itJhtok tMt thte is am article. Jin w^hlcJi, pro^
bably, the Americans will do most of the
bualnefls. But M the goods are imported

fpom Gieat Britain, the duty, under the pr*.
ferential clause, alter the let July next, will
be 18% per cent.

362

361

Fancy Goods-
Braids, bracelets, cords, frin-
ges, tassels, &c

Laces, lace collars and similar
goodp, lace nets and nettings
of cotton, linen, silk or other

material

Fiaz, hemp and jute, manufac-
tures of— *
Damask of linen, including
napkins, doylies, tray cloths,
eiaeboard covers, damask

stair IJTien and diaper

Fruits-
Dried currants \

Dried raisins J

Oi-anges, lemonb and limes, in
boxes of capacity not exceed-
ing 2J cub. ft.

f • • •

• • • •

( • • 4

01c.

per

lb..

25c.

per

box.

30 " ....
01c, per lb.

25o, per box.

.30f

301

26i « ....
Jc. per lb..

21 |c. per box

26^

26i

22f "
fo. per Ib.i

iSJc.per box

i I am asked whether I expect orangM to place whence we Mwii recoire Hum On more

come from Bogland, I reply that I do not,
bat I expect them to come from some other

taronrable torms than at the present.

Preferential
n let July,

'referential

Tariff
)m Ist July,

1898.

15 p. c

7i "

'm "

22| p. c.
39|c.p. tonof
2,000 lbs.

26i p. c.

ISit '•
26i "

22J "

26i "
15 "

183 "

:der ithe prew
y next, will

26J "
26J "

22f "
fo. per lb. .

I8|c. per box

ivm Ou DaOfe
sent.

iTATiafENT showing the Old Tariff Rate, the New General Tariif Rate, the Preferential
Tariff Rate to the 30th Jun*;, 1398, and tlio Preferential Tariff Rate from Ist July,
1898, on certain principal articles :

343

406
201

403

280

227
315

321

212
212

219
173

Articles.

Fiirniture of wood or any other
material, houee, qabinet pr of-
fice finished or in parts. ......

Pur skins, wholly or partially

dressed

Olass and manufactures of : —
Common and colourleso win-
dow glass, plain, coloured,
stained or tmted or muffled

glass in sheets

Hate, caps and bonnets, N. E. S.
Iron and steel, manufactures of :
Hardware, viz.: Builders', cab-
inet makers', upholsterers',
harness makers' and rad-
dlers',including curry combs
carriage hardware, &o...

Iron in Pigs :■..

Machinery, all other, composed
wholly or in part of iron or

steel, N.E.S

Manufactured articles or wares,
not specially enumerated or
provided for, composed of iron

or steel, &c

Leather and manufactures of : —
Calf, kid, lamb and sheepskins
dressed, waxed or glazed . . .
Upper leather, including don-
gola, cordovan, kangaroo, al-
ligator and chamois skins,
dressed, waxed or glazed... .

Boots and shoes, N.E.S

Oils :~
Coal and kerosene, distilled,
purified or refined, naphtha
and petroleum, N.E.S

Old larifl
Rate.

30 p. c ,
15 " ,

20 "
30 "

32J"

|4.00 per ton*

27ip.c,

27J" .
17i" .

17i"
25" «

(j c. p. gall.

General
Present Tariff.

30 p. c.
16 " .

20 "
30 «

30 " .....
f2.60 per ton.

25 p. c,

30 " .

17J« .

17J"
25 "

5 c. p. gall.

Preferential

Tariff

to doth Jane,

1898.

26 J p.c

13i«

17f"

26|"

26i"

$2.1 8| per ton

2Up.c ,

26J"

15,^"......

l&A"

2H«

Preferential

Tariff

from 1st July,

1898.

22i p.c ,
Hi" .

15 "

22i"

22J"

$1,871 per ton,

18^p.c

22}'

IH'

18|"

I do not put anything in the preferential list for tBat.

169
158

140

139
347
334

394

Flaxseed or linseed, raw or boiled
Paints and colouri. ir-
Dry white and red lead, orange

mineral and zinc white

Paper and manufactures of —
Envelopes, papcteriea, blank
book«, and manufactures of

paper

Paper, all kinds, N.E.S

Watcn actions or movements..
WooJ, manufactures of, N.E.S
Wool, manufactures of —

Cloths

Coatinga

Tweeds..

All fabrics, composed oil
or in part of wool, woi'si
&c.,n1.S

my
ted.

20 p. c .

5 "

35 "

25 "

10 •* ... ..

25 " .

5c. p. lb.
25 p.c

and

30d. C

25 p. c . .

5 « ..

...

35 « ..
25 « ..

. .i

10 "

25 "

«•!«'•

21|« ......

2H"

8f«
30i«
30f«

18i«
3f «

26i"

18l"
ijta

isf"

26i"
26J«

Mr. TATLOB. That i» goud protection.

" TheMINISTEK OF FINANCE. That only
■bows how thoroughly fair I am patting
thMA items Id. 1 am putting a fi'lr state-
oient belore the Housfi. There are a few casrtf

In s^hlch the rate* of the general tariff are
(ncreoeed, but In every one of these ratee It
will be Connd f:hat when you apply the pre-
ferential tariff >o<u have a lower rate than un-
der the old tailff.

Statement showing the Old Tarift Rate, the New General Tariff Rate, the Preferential
Tariff Rate to the 30th June 1898, and the Preferential Tariff Rate from Ist July,
1898, on certain principal articles :

289

3631

Article*.

Clothing, ready-made, and wearing
apparel of every description,
composed wholly or in part of
woof, worsted, N. 0. P. Sec ....

397 Carpets, Brussels

" tapeeliy

26] Pear line and other soap powders
47 Cornmeal

65 Wheat

66 " flour....

162|Surgical belts and t'niesee, and sus-
pensory bandages of all kinds

163|Surgical and dental instruments
(not being furniture) and surgical
needles

171 Lubricating oils, composed wholly
or in part of petroleum, costing
less than twenty-five cents per
gallon

139lScnool writing slates

245 Stove plates,, stoves of all kinds,
sad or smoothing, hatters' and
tailors' irons, ftc-.^

248|Caet iron pipe of every description.

6cp.lb.and30pc

30 p.

86 "
40o. p. bri
16c. p.
76c. p.

Old Tariff
Rate.

General
Present Tariff:

bush,
brl....

35 p. c.r..

36 "

30 " ...
26c. p. brl....
12c. p. bush.
60c. p. brh...

26 p. c.
16 p. 0.

6c. per gal.
30 p. c...

255|IroB or steel cut nails and spikes
(ordinary builders) ; and railroad

spikes

267|Wire nails of all kinds, N.O.P

288|Files and rasps N.E S

.^.dzes, cleavers, hatchets

Saws

Hammers, cantdogs, picks, mat-
tocks, anvils, vices and tools of
all kinds for hand or machine use

White cotton embroideries

433|Binder twine or twine for harvest
binders of hemp, jute manilla or
sisal, and of manilla and sisal

mixed

468jTaiIor8', mi!lliner's and mantle-
f makers' f&shion plates

27 J p. c,
$10 per ton but
not less thad
36 p. c $8.00 per ton.

479 Artificial limbs

688 Cream separators

611 Btm» trimmings for bedsteads

627|Wireof zinc

633 Zinc in plates

f c. per lb
Olc. "

36 p.

36," ....
32} « ....

36
30

12J«

6e. per lb.
and 20 p. c- .
20 " ..
27* " ..
so' " ..
26 " ..

20 p. c.

Free trom 1st

5c. p. gal.
26 p. c.

26 "

|c. per lb..

ic « ..

30 p. c

30
25

Free.

te
tt
U
tt
tt

till

Piefereutial

Tariff"

to SOth June,

1898.

Preferential

Tariff

from let July,

1898.

30f p. c..,..
30| " . ..
26i " .„.

17} p. 0.

21} p. c.
21} "

$7.00 per ton. {$6 00 per ton
per lb.

26}
21}

1st Jan., 1898

26} p. c.
26} "
32} ♦*

16 p. 0.
January, 1898.

18} p. c.
18} "

|c. per lb.

22}
18}

p.c.
tt

pree
the
TJ
poll
tarl
brlE
thet
will
tion
beji(
wor
{org
Opp
thai
uot
to t
are
ns

Stat
self
had
tion
oaKh
men
told
llisfa
try,
w©«
thai
- you
It,
ure.
of
wtu

eid

say

we«

thei

tha

fair

con

H(n

and then free.

LmSk

tariff art

rates it

the pre-

te than on-

referential
Ist July,

*refer«ntial

Tariff
m 1st July,

1898.

•■;■

»7

%i p. c.
22J «'

15 p. c.
inuary, 1898.

18i p. c.
18i "
I 00 per ton

ic. per lb,
22J p. c.

22* p. c.

isl "

id then free.

I ma afraid that I har« vMirted tb« Houia
by reading that long Hat, bat I thlnli it was
neo«8tf&ry, In view of the critlci»p?i* that
have bom otTcred, bo abow tba4 wre baw
made, if not all the reforraa that we desired,
a very extended tariff reform and one whicL
I am sure the country will appreciate.

The POSTMASTER GENEEAL. Ha» ap.
predated.

Tke MINISTER OF FINANCE. Haa ap-
prealated, my hon. friend aays, ^nd I accept
the amendment.

Tiie most striking feature of the tariff
policy of last aession was the preferential
tarlEf. That policy was designed chleily to
bring about pieferential trade with the mo^
ther country, and I am sure the House
wiU a^^ree with me wihien I say liiat ^luut por-
tion of our tariff -policy has been aucceasful
beyond meaaure, and has given Canada a
world-wide fame. When I say thla I do not
forget that my hon. friend the leader of the
Opposition, not many days ago, atated that
that policy had been a complete failure, f do
not know whether my hon. friend wished ua
to take that remark seriously. But if we
are to treat it aerlou'^Iy for a moment, let
us connider what grounda he haa lor tba^
statement. In order that he might give him'
aell some apparent ground, my hou. friead
had to cMate a policy in hla own Imaglna.-
tion-ln order that he might have one much
easier to attack. He aaya, uddreaaing the
members on this side of the Uouae : "leu
told the House that you were going to entab-
Iksti praAiireoiutiaii tra<le witih th« m iither cowv
try, you aafd yon could do it, you said you
weaid dK> it, yftn m.i<l you knew all about it,
that you had not any iloubt about it end
■ you were going to do it; but you did not do
it, therefore your poliey Is a oomyiete fa>.]*
ure." That in an^'staure was the statenacnrt:
of m^ htm. frload mot many dAya ago. Now,
what was the attitude of the GovoiniBent
oB this question last year 7 Was it deacrlb-
ed correctly by my hoo. friend ? Did we
say we knew all about this matter, that we
we«e going to give preferential trade, that
there were no doubts and no difflcuitles, and
that we were sure to do it ? No, Sir, every
fair-minded man knows that that is not a
coxreet description of what occurred in thie
House.

What we did say . waa this : That while
we knew well that the Belgian and German
tieatiea had for years been regarded as stand-
ing in the way of any auch arrangement, we
felt that the Issue respecting these . treatiea
bad n«ver liaein fairly and properly tried out
before the British Government; we felt that
the moment had arrived when we should
shallenge the position that was taken on that
question, to see if something could not be
done to bring about a change for the. bet- i
ter. I have atated that we knew that the '
Bellman and German treaties appeared to i
stand in the way, but we felt the time had

come when We could present th« quOTtloa k»-
fo'.« Her MajeHfy'f Government In a naw
'jrm. In the first place, there waa room kot
argument, and we did argue, that luasmueb
a* the Eelg:lan and German treaties bad ne*
ve/ b^n ratified by tho Parliament uf Oaa-
ada, or by the legislatures of the province of
Canada, or by any particular legislation auy-
where, there was fair ground for contMul-
ing that those treatiea coulJ not be made
to apply to a aelf-goveruing colony like Qtm-
ada. We had to take the position, in OaM-
adft's interest and as the advocates of dan-
ada, that it was our duty to pat farward
every argument we could ^ut forwarll in
favour of and in nupport of our claim. We
had presented the question to the House to
a form not ron^ned to preferential trade
with the mother cooptry alone. We present-
ed oar proposition to Parliament in tho form ''
of ar offer to eit^id pi-rferential trade to
such countries as might i>e wllliog to •xtend
9<iual adTantagea to us. Ttt»ro was a tctJa
\ procal condition in the treaty which 9pv,B«d
I a new qneation, new at all evanta aa regmiiia
Canada aniU the moth«)r counti-j. There had
I been no previona proposal on auch lines, and
' ibersfore we felt there waa roou tw »«yi-
I ment, and we were bound to argue, that n?w
I oooddMone that exlate^ «nAbM! oi* tr qar>-
tlom whetAeor thote tr:*tiep would Davw tte
j effect which bon. grntienken oppoait* t« tiiila
i House said they had. We went on t» eo*-
tend, aiid ws did contend that eveajf S#l- .
gluiL and Genuany »-rf>re standing in tli«» ir«p,
: as they had been standing in the wry )» tiic
past, the. -ew oc^ntJtiona that vrei'v iutpcrtd^
Into tho que«tl^43 minet l.^s wffer jiftm mate ;::•
other countries, vrta to Bvlglnm aai Hm*-
; "jiau: , }• tlLjT ir»rn jprepars«i^ tr avail them-
I ae^TMi )f tie cV?k, »m^*1 Ofuiada In a pMi-
I tfon wMcL Hei Vfajerty's Ooveramemt shaaitf
I coneJder. We were well aware that tkeae
were debatable subjects, that some af than
In times past had been the au^Jeet •! ^ifletfi-
ties; we knew there wert dauMa mmt iifiaai-
tlea surrounding them; a.^a w<i farther Imrnm
that Her Majesty's Govsmaent, la dsaBtlag
with foreign nations, would always be As-
posed to interpret treatim in a very libsml
spirit to the contracting parties; but know-
ing all these facts, we nsTerthelsss felt ihat
we were bound as the advocates 9i Canada
to put forward every claim which could be
put forward In its behalf. That was the po^
sltion the Government took, -and hat was
the position which my hon. friend th« IIIb.
istsr of Marine and Fishraies took in this
House, and which he took outside sf this
House, and as an advocate of Caaada b»
waa bound to put forward every elolra he
could In order to sustain Canadian Interests,
In order to show that this was the posi-
tion we took, tha* we knew thew w«r»
£^«hts,^ that we did not take ths pmitioB.
whfeh hon. {$6uti6ni6u opposite Bay we tswk,
I am going to ask the House to bear with)
me whil* I resNi a quotetioa fiwm my B««.

! 11

g«t Speech of laat year, and I read It because
I deelre to show that from the begln-
nlog the poeition we. took wai thla, not that
there were no doubts, not that the comae
was clear, but that doubte and dlfflcultlM
pr«T9ineff, and that we w^id resolTcd to go
forward with the firm conviction that even
though the viowa we held could uut be aua-
tadned by Her Majesty's Oovernment, the
onteome of the whole nvatter would be to
preaent the Belgian and German treaties
In a new light and one which was likely to
bring abont good redultH. Speaking -at the
time whem I was asking the adioptioti' of this
new policy, I used the following language :

"Now, I ahall not undertake to pass any
" Judgment upoai this very importast <iue»-
" tlon of the most-favoared nation claiw^s of
" these Imperial treaties. It is an intema-
" tioual qnestion, and it' Is well that we
" should nmarve our flnaJ Judgmernt utdou iti.
" We recognise that it is a question upon
" which we shajil ultimately have to consult
"with Her Majesty's Oovernment, and I need
** ntwt aay ibhial tLwy vletw tlhat may be taken
** by Her Majeety's Government will be con-
" sidered by the Oovernment of Canada with
" the respect that is due to any representa-
" tion that^ might be made upon any subject,
" but above all, on the question of an inter-
" national character. I say that it does not
" aosm Hair and raaaan able that we should be
" oblfged, while we are offering certain terms
" nwt to Great Britain only, but to all coun-
" tries which will place themselves in the
" same position — it does not seem to be fair
" and reasonable that we should be obliged
•* to extend the privileges of this schedule,
•♦ which we ea:ll a reciprocal tariff, to na-
*' tlons which are not willing to do anything
•• in return.

"1 adimt there may be difficulties in the
" way. It may be possible that the view we
" take of this matter is not the correct view,
'* but we say ft is only fair and reasonable
" in the inteorests of Canada, in the InterestB
" of fair trade between ourselves and Great
" Britain, that we should to-day take the
" pesltion that the fareured-nation clauses
•* do n«£^ apply : — "

I regret that I have mislaid for the mo-
ment 'Sie page on which I have extended the
balance of the sentence.

Mr. DAVIN. It is as follows :—
" — and that this resolution, which I pnt
'* upon the. Table of the House, will only ex-
" tend to such countries as are prepared to
" glre admifilon to our products under fair
• teims."'

The MINI.STER OF FINANCE. Perhaps
the k«n. gentleman will proceed with the
reading, because it iH rery good sesise.

Mr. DATIN. Sir Cliarled Tupper then

I! IKii

Seme boa. MEMBERS. Ob, oh.

The MUnSTEE OF FINANCE. At that
stage of the discussion the leader of the Op-

posltlou exchanged a tew words with me in
tirhlch he tuuk the ground that the treaty
: In express terms stood in our way. I con-
tinue the quotation :
"The MINISTER OF FINANoE. Bveu it It
I " does, the world moves, and possibly the
" step we are taking to-night may have the
" effect — and that may be one of *Ue ndvant-
" utsea of It-— of drawing the attention of
' Uer Majesty's Government and o( the Eug-
liHh public to i.La posit<oo uf those treat-
" tee, and thus opm\lu£ um the questloa.
; " Meantime, Sir, rocognlzing the dlfflcultiM,
j " recognising the possibilities that our Judg-
, " ment may be mistakiQn, aiul reicognlxlng the
" obligations .ve may owe as part of the
' " Empire, wa Intend for the present to take
I " the view that Inasmuch as we offer these
I " conditions to other nations, if they do not
' " see flt to accept them, the responsibility
" rests upon them and not upon Canada."

From these passages, Mr. Speaker, it will
be seen that from the beginning we recog-
nized the debatable character of the sub-
ject, and the doubts and difficulties nhlcb
were before us; and we went forward, not
with the assurance that the views whicb
we had advanced would in all respects pn
vail, but even that if our interpretation of
the treaties should not be upheld, we should
place the question before the public In such
a manner as would show most effectually
the objectionable character of the Belgian
ani German treaties.

True, Sir, the hon. leader of the OppoeitioD
said from the begfnning that there was no
ground whatever for our contention, and
that no good could come from our action.
But better authorities than he admitted
that the grounds we had taken demanded
grave consideration. A great organ of Brit-
ish opinion, usually well informed in Imper-
ial and colonial matters, the London
"Times," emphatically declared that it was
doubtful whether these treaties applied to
such a case as was crented by the action of
Canada. Her Majesty's Ministers in London
deemed the position taken by our Govern-
ment so important that they reserved their
Judgment until the question conld be fully
argued before the law officers of the Crown.

Our views weire presented to Her Ma-
jesty's Ministers and to ibe law officers
and to the Brltdsh public by my hon. frleodn
the Prime Minister and the Minister of Ma-
rine and Fisheriee, asodated in the legal
argument by Hon. Edward Blake. Sir, what
was th» result T The Imperial authoritlM
held that under the treaties in queetlon
Oermany and Belgium were entitled to re-
ceive in the Britdsh colonies the same tariff
conditions aa we*e available to Great Bri-
tain.

Well, Sir, ff th9 matter had en^d tbem.
If thait were the whole story, undoubtedly
my hon. friends opposite would be In a poat-
tion to tell us that our policy bad borne do

with me Id
: th« treaty
wftj?. I con-

•:. Eveu It it
>oBalbly the
ay havo the

•^Ue advant-
utteutlon of
I ul the Eug-
thoee treat-
the queetloa,
e dlfDcaltles,
lat our Judg-
coffnizlug th«
)art of the
Bent to take

offer these

they do not
■esponslbllity

Cauada."

laker, It will
we recog-

of the Bub-
cultlee which
)rward, not
vlewB whic^
reitpects pn
'pretatlon of
1, we Rhould
>ubllc in such
t effectually

the Belgian

le Opposition
there was no
:entioD, and
m our action,
he admitted
en demanded
rgan of Brit-
aed in Imper-
the London
that it was

applied to
the action of
rs In London
our Govem-
reserved their
ould be fully
)f the Crown,
to Her Mfi-

law officers
f hon. frieindii
niater of Ma-
in the legal
ke. Sir, what
il authorttief

in question
ntltled to r»-
18 same tarlfl
to Great Brt-

end«d thsBMu

undoubtedly

be in a po»l-

bad borne no

good fruit. But we all know th«t th« mat-
(.ar did not and ttwre. While these ncgoM*^
tiocw were gotog on, wliile arguments wen
being beard before the law ofB.ers of the
Crown iu Englandi, aa to the puaitlooi of
Canada under them treatlen, a great public
opinion was being oreatied in the United
Kingdom and throughout the Elmpire wihich
became a potent factor in eetfllng this ques-
tion. For the nrat time the people of Ehig-
land were maile to fully understand what
tbOM treatioe meant, and how they stood as
a barrier betweim the mother country and
her colonies. Poblle men in this country
had been talking of preferential trade for
years, but they had never got beyond tbe
Htagr of talking. If we had followed . on
the same llnea no doubt we would have been
equally untiuccesstul as others had been in
diflturblng the objectionable troatiee. If we
had continued to make speeches on preferen-
tial trade, and to pass moanlngles* refioln-
tlruiB which womld accomplislh nothing, I
have no doubt wo should have failed in re-
moving the barriers which stood in our way,
and I have no doubt we should have gone on
(or years without accooipllshing any sub-
Ntantlal result. Efforts have been made by
bon. gentlemen opposiVe to make It appear
that we could have obtained prefAreoiitiai du-
ties in the British marketa in return for our
conceaeions, if we deina>nded such. It' Las
been said by these hon. ^ventlemen x'ihat my
rigiht hon. Irlend the kiedier of the Goven))-
ment had opportunities when he was in Eng-
land of receiving what are called better
terms from the mother country, and thai he
failed to take advantage of these opportuui-
tien; indeed It ia said that he r«fus«d ofTe.'^
which it la alleged had be«a made to him.

I bellefve. Sir, for my part that every man
who has had opportunities of sounding pub-
lic opinion in England on this subject rea-
llies that there was no ground whatever for
expediting such prefereaitlal terms aa we are
told we ahould have demand»d. I do not
belieVe that any intelligent man will say
candidly to-day, that there :1b any proba-
bility in the immediate or etirly future of
the Britiah people adopting a policy of pre-
ferential trade on the terms mentioned by
my hon. friends opposite.

Mr. FRASER (Quysborough). Nor on any
terms.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. My hon.
friend (Mr. Fraaer) aaya "nor on a,tiy terms,"
but I will not go BO far as that. I will how-
ever go this far, and I will say that rpon
the terma which hon. gentlemen opposite
talked preferential trade, there is not atd ne-
ver was a gh<»t of a chance of Great Britain
accepting it I believe that enrcry man who
has gone to • England and has met public
n3*n th»re, sind has met the representatives
of the pre«s, and has got down nniontt the
masses of the people, must realize the feet -
that you caaminit get the masses of the t^ng-

»9

I llsh people to impose dtflarential duties for

I the bedwdt of the colouies. There Is a car-

I dlna] point In respect to these duties which

I reactass the masses very quickly. The ttist

I step in a mo vera rant) of preferential tra4e of

tbat sort must of necessity look towari*

the imposition of duties on ffraln; a renewal

; of what are called In English the old Cora

Laws. I ventured to discuss this phase of

' the subjeot in my remarks a year a^, and I

! Shall ask the House to bear w!tli me wbllc

' ( read a brief extract from what I then said.

These were my opinions then :

'This question of prelcrentlal tradv htm
" been mentlonsd in the House in times past.
'* Leading public men have advocated prefer-
'* entlal trade, but always annexing to thetr
' * suKipeations a demand with whdch It was
j " well known England could not comply. All
" the advocates of preferential trade, at all
'* eventa all who have taken an active part
I ** In that movement, have assumed that as
I " the first step, England must consent to
I ** put a duty on grain. We kno>w that Bng-
I •* land does not view that project with fav-
" our. We know tibat no more unpopular
' " project can be offered the English people
" than to tmk. them to pu^ a Juty on bread-
! " staffs. It may^ be. as time lolla on, and at
I •' an early day, they may change their vietws.
j *• It may be tliat they may aae It in their
I ■ interedt to make thla distinction, and tlui|7
I •• may offer some preferential terms te the
" grain of Caaada. If the^y can be induced
" to do that by fair argument, I ibave no
" donbt it will be a good thing for Canada.
" But wchy alhoiild we wait for Englaird to
" take action ? England has dt>alt gtenep-
• ously witb us in the past. England has
" given us a larger degree of liberty perhaps
" than is possessed by any other country oo
'' the face of the earth. She has given us
'• llbenty to tax her wares even when she
" admits OUT goods free, and we have taxed
" them to an enormous degree. Why "sJiould
"we wait for England to do more ? Som»-
" body must make a more in this matter,
" and we propose that Canada aiball lead
"tl'je way."

As a gau^e of the public aenitiment In Eng-
Uuncl I believed that these words were tme
on vie 22nd of April last, and I believe they
wAU be found to be equally true to-day.
Then* wsie no prospect theni; there 1b no
prtwiect now that the English people will
agiee to tax theiir bread to pl^se tlte Gan»^
dial) I'eople.

So mi \ hion. MEMBERS. Haar, hear.

The 'MINISTER OF FINANCE. I do uot
Bay th it such a thi g la Impossible. On the
eontrw.', I admit it is within the bounds of
po««H»il.ty, thpugh by no meaas likely to
come In tiis near future.

Somt* ton, MEMBERS. Hear, hear.
The MimSTER OF FINANCE. 1 vei*-
ture to aar, witb the fullest corafi<taftc», that

If Mflh • policy to to bt •dofttsd by th*
OMyMur coootry, It will not be brought about
by any huckwterlng policy oa the part ot
Oao&da, or ou tlhw pamt o< any ot the eoknv
!«• making deniaiMla ot an unr«aaociabl«
okAractor; but It will cop« a« th« reault of
a p\«jMl Imperial aatttlment which will over-
rid* aJl qu«atlc»ia of an aconomlc nature. I
rapaat, that it such a policy la to com* It
will come o« tlw trult ot the vrowtih of an
Imperial oautlmetnt, and nothing that haa
oeearred lu colonial hlatory has d^one' au
ia«cta to create and develop itluvt aeutlmeot
a* tb« T«ry meaaure whtCb the Parllamebt
d Oa<nftda placed on ttie Statiit»>boolu oJ
tMB country laat year.

St being 81x o'clock, the Speekier left the
Ohatr.

AFTEU BBCESS.

Ite MINISTER OF FINANOE. Mr.

SymkMT, when jon left the Ch«lr «t etx

e'alwk I had bean dlacnaaing tor a (ew

aoianlM tim qucartloo ot preterentlaJ tradai,

wMk aome reterence to the deounclatfon o4

tba Balglan end Qenuan treaties, and alao

with paantdcular reteranc* to tha Tiawa ob

frelanntial trade which are aotnettBifla *z-

prMaed by hon. gentlemen on the other

alia ot the Homae. In ordier to stkoiw the

Ttiwa which the Ooreranieot entartalnad

kM* year on tha/t anbjaet, I bad taken the

Mbert7 of qaoting a pa— aga from my own

*p«Mk. It had been rapreaantad oeoaslon-

aJly — and mj right hon. friend the Prime

MMatar had bean panticnlarly attacked on

tll»t aenra— -<that tih« GoTeanment ot Canada,

la ntom for eoneeaakxia granted to Oiaat

•ititabi, conid and should hare oibt&lnad ear-

tala protareDitlal advantagea In the British

naiket. I bad quoted from my remarJu

of laat aeaaioo to ahow that tha vietw which j

tka OoTernment entantalneid ot tbat quea-

tl«a was that, owing to the strong oplolon

ll » w » to preT«ll In ttie mother counttry ou

the qoeatlon of protectlre duties generally,

bat particularly on tJie qtieatioo ot protee-

tlT« duties aflectln^f artlclea of fiood, thene

was BO reaeonable ground tor belierlng that

aiqr each preforentle.! terms could have been

obteinad In tha British market.

What was it that moTed the British public
aa tke Brltlah public had never been moved
balsre by a eokmlal legislative enactment T
It was that the GoTemm'eBit and Parlia-
ment of Canada, not demanding impoeelble
eaaitClone, not asking titltigs wMeh tihey
bMMr or SihioiiUi teraow the British publle were
aat prepared to grant, not raising any de-
ad of an nnreasonabk character, mot try-
te have any huckstering or bai^aLodi^ in
<!ransact!loo, but In a firae and geneiroug
apWt, in reoogmltloo of the liberal manner
in wklcb Engiamd haa alwcjra treated bar
ot^tanies, had not bean eoDbant to talk pr»-
teiVMtitai trade, but hiad acted pivtBraufaUd
It was baeans* Canada bad thrown

i open tlia doov, and bad dselared tliat at
srary cuetom-ibouae, from ocean to ocean,
the goods ot the mother couBtry ehouM be
admitted on terue ot prelereatlal tra<le. It
was when that step wa« taken that the great
heart ot the Engllah people wue moved on
this subject; and so, wImd the moment ar-
rived when the Imperial authorities was*
obliged by the tenns ot the Geraian and Bel-
i^ian t»atiea to declare that they wera not
at llbertiy to accept the condltioua of pre-
ferential trade whdcfa we offend — when the
EngllKh people found that Canada had open-
ed the door of Iwr costom-honsea in the maik-
nar I have deacrlbed, and that by ttie ecadl-
tlona of tboee treaties the Imperial Govem-
ment were obliged to close tftie door and m-
fuee the offer — then the British people tur
! deratood, aa th«(y had never understood ba>
; fore, the true oharacter of thoae tnatiss,
and thua there was aecored the public opkir
ion which enabled Her Majesty's Government
to take the step from which In tormer yaars
they luadi bean obliged to shrink. I pointed
out, Sir, that if we h&d simply tailed ta sus-
tain our grouiiM] with reepeot to the applica-
tion ot the Belgian and German tiaattes,
tttiait the reciprocal character of our terltf
entitled us to claim that th^ treatlea dUd
not apply, and that bad been the whole
story, there would have been aome gsoand
for the claim of hon. gentlemen opposite that
our tariff policy in that reapect had not
been a sucoeati. But when we were able
to ahow, as a direct and Immediate leenlt
of the step which Canada had takeok, that
the danundation o^ those treatiee, which
bad been bought by the colondea for eo long
a f me without success, was brought about,
then I say the Govennment of Canada had a
spieoMUd vindication ot the policy tkvy had
povsued on that question. We all hnow, Sh-,
with what Joy the view taken by the €lov-
erament of Canada was received by the E^^
llBh people. We know that while the Qov-
emiment ot Canada was bached up, and
promptly backed up, by the action of tho slit-
ter colonilee, it was bached up etlll more
strongly by British public opinion; and but
for that public opinion, which I claim wa«
the direct orttcome of the Canadian poltey
Itself, thoae Belgian and German treaties
would not have been denounced down to tbe
present mH'ment.

I have spoken ot the effect of the Belgian
and Garmaji treatiee on our mevenrMit tot
prelarantial trade; and now I muei say
something with regard to another claw ot
treittl^a, those commonly called favoured-ria-
tiOn treaties. Great Britain haa treatlw
with many nations, eontailning what Is call-
ed the favouredruation clanae, by the tanns
of wbifu it Is dflielazvd that If at any ttan
Qi^t Britahi, ahoold grant «o vy ttitrd
power any commercial advantages, she sliaii
b* obliged to grant those ad'Tantagee l£ka-
wtos to the contraetdng power. When, ^bwe>

tluit att
to ocean,
•bouM b*
[1 tra4«. It
t the cnat
movad on
,om«a« ar-
itta* w«*a
Ian adMl B«l-
wer« not
of pr»-
whm th»
had opao-
tn th« meo-
tlh* eoodi-
•lal QovwOf
tor aiBd !»-

P«Opte VkDr

itood b»-

JoM tMatlM,
public OpiDr

Governmeivt

(ormw jman

I p«l«tad

Bdled ta ana-

tim appllca-

i«n tnaMea,

>f onr terttt

rwttea dSd

the whola

nne gBomd

oppoaita th«t

wet had not

» werre aibte

adlata vaaalt

tailuiD, tkat

»atlaa, wklch

I lor ao loog
ought about,
lasada had a
ley tkv had

II know, air,
by the ©o*-

by the Eat-
lle itlta ' <3«^-
Bd up, uui
xi o! the slfc-
ip still more
ton; and but
I claim was
i.<llan policy
man fereatlaa
down to tba

the Belgian
KvenrttBt lor
I mufii: say
her class of
fRvonre<J-iia-
has to^wttai
what la cttlK
>y the taana
t asy tlBM
JO any Oiird
^, shift slvail
uatagee lik*-
Wh«a, iHuf-

(ore, by the action of Her Majaaty'a Oav-

egnnniAuit, lit was dotcrrmlnod that the Belgian
and German traa'tlni must ai ply to Oaa>-
ada, and that we most admit Belgian and
Oenttaa goods ba terms as tavourabl<) as
the goods of England, then it followed that
by the tenne of the faTonre«1-natlon traatlea,
we were obliged to concede llloe advan-
tageM to every one ot tlie nations which
bad a treaty of that kind wtitii the mo-
ther country. ^ I have here a artatement
thowlog the several countrlea which have
been brougbt under the o.'teiration ot the Oan-
adiaa preferenftlal tariff :

"Couotrles admitted by the reciprocal
" chairacter of their tariff : New South
" Wales, British Inidla, Neitlierlands, Jarpan.

"Cenintriee admltteid under the Belgian
" Mid German treaty : Belgium and Ger-
" n»ajuy.

"CoauntmleH adtmlttod under the favound-
" nation treaties : France, Algeria, and the
" French Coloniea; Argentina, Austria, Huiv-
" gaiy, BollTia, Columbia, Demmark, Perala,
*' Roflsla, Swe<lein and Norway, Tunis, Vene-
" swala, Swltzerlaad, Liberia, Morocco, Sal-
" Tatkor, South African Rre{>ublic, Tonga,
*' Sp«ia."

The caee of France, Algeria and the FrenAb
colonJes was goverated by our own Franco-
Canadian Treaty, which had, of course,
reoedved the approval of the Canadian Parlia-
meiBt. In the other eaaea, the favoured-na-
tion treaties had never received tflie approval
of the Canadian Parliament; but they were
neverthelefls hold to apply to Canada. Thus
it will be aeen that the preference which
we wisfeed to give, and which we actually
did give for several months to Great Bri-
tain, had to be extended to the countries
I have namad; and we refunded to im-
porters duties which had been collected in
the Interim upon goods from those several
countries.

But all this will come to an end at a very
eairly daflr. At the end of July in the pteeen-t
year the Belgian and German treaties will
expire. Canada will not then be obliged to
give the preference to either Belgium or
Germany.

With the fall ot the troatlee, the claims
of other aatioms, under the tavoxired-natlon
treaties, to receive equal advantages will
also fall. Cafl»da will then be free to con^
fine the beneeata of her preferemtial tariff to
the mother ooontry and to such colomhw as,
In the Judgment of Canada, shonfd be ad-
mitted. That 1», Mr. Sreakar, what we eaa
do, and that is procdsely what I shall have
the honour of proposing to the House.
Under the terms of the preferemtial tariff,
as It now wtafluls, the second reduction of
12% per cent, making 25 per cent in all, will
tak« eflect cm the Qiat of July next. For the
moment, it wUl be uecesMry for us to g!v»
t«# wrfMw redaction, not otrty to Orsat

Britain, bat to tha varlona nattena I Iwra
menftioned, beeaass the tvaatlaa do not «k-
ptre until thie last day of July. We propoas
to rep«<nl the section of tihe law and tite ach*-
dule dealUkg with the preforeivtlal tariff. We
propose tihut that repeal shall take effect on
tHifr dtnt of Augtisit nevt, which will be tb»
day when Canada will no longer be botiod
by the Belgian and German treaties, and we
propone to substitute for the existing law on
the subject a riew aeotlon and schedule, la
accordflTKe with the statement I have made.
This new section and this new schedule will
provide that the preferential tariff aball, la
th« drat place, apply to the products of tha
Hnlted Kingdom of Great Britain and Ire-
land, and alio that it shall apply if) the pro-
ducts of any British colony or posseHslon tha
tariff of which is deened to be favourable to
the trade of Crnada. Under this provlaloo,
Nem '^outh Wales and Brttlab India will ba
admitted, as they now are, to tlw beneAts oi
the preferenalal tariff. There will be a fur-
ther provlsinn respecting the opemtlMi ot
the preferential tariff, to which I shall ra>
fer as I proceed.

Mr. McNEILL. Will the hon. gentlemaa
kindly 8«y, how the denunciation of the Bel-
gian and German treaties affect the favaar-
ad-matton clause with regard to otkor eoos-
trlea?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. By tiM
Tavoared«iiation clause we are obliged ma
.part of the Empire, \ give to any counttv
having a lavouredt-nation treaty with Great
Britain any privilege whicih may be granted
to ?m(y third p<Twer. Belgium and Germaay
are <tftiirdi powers wdt'hJn the meaning of ttiaaa
works. Therefooie, when we were obligadt
by the decisdon of the Imperial authoritlea,
to give the privileges of the tariff to Belgium
and Germangr, ttieee being third powers as
respects all other nations, the favourad-
natlon treaties began to apply, and we Ikad
to extend the advantages to the soverai
countries as wedl.

Mr. McNEILL. I think I dHd not maka
my qnestlen quite clear to my hon. friend
I was not asking with regard to Belgium
and GermAny, bort with regard to otfieir
countries. For example, Holland bad a right
to eome in under the favoured-nation
ciauaa: would not all other nations having
th«4 elaosa In their treatise, have the right
to eome In as soon as- Holland was admit-
ted, Irreopective of Belfffum and Germany al-
togjether ?

Tne MINISTER OF FINANCE. I see tlia
hon. gentleman's point now. The point is,
that having admitted Holland, we woald be
obliged, evon irrespective of the German
and Belgian treatiea, to admit the othar
nations as wejl. That would be quite cor-
rect, but we oonld_eaaIly havs ntemeA tf»
admit the goods of uoliond, auu tuna tSiSffs
would be no tiKmble. Bot we eouM aot

refom to admit the goodi of fi»lglum and
Germaniy with the Banie (reedom aa w«
could the goods of Holland.

Mr. McNeill. Does tlw boo. K^utleman
•ay that h« could, in the tac« cf bis recipro-
cal orTtor of last Bession, have refused admis-
■lon to tihe goods of Holland ?

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE. That,
possibly, is a question upon which legal g9n-
tlemeo might differ. I am strotngly Inclined
to thinlc that them was a measture of discre-
tioin remaining in the hands of the Qovem-
ment on that question. I will not aay, how-
aver, that the question is beyond debate. I
tfainjt, perhaps, there is room to doubt whe-
ther or not we were obliged to admit tihe
goods of Holland. However tbiat may be,
Holland received the benefit of the doubt,
and we did admit her goods. The hon. geai-
tleman ia quite right in stating that the
momcDt any foqnedgm nation, no matter by
what method, received tdie benefits of our
prefererntial clau'ie, we were then obliged,
under the Imperial decision, to give eveny
orther nation having the favoured-nation
clause in its treaty the same advfmtagee.

I wlalh now to say aametbing with regard
to changes wlhich may be deemed necessary
in tie present tarnf. The Qoveimment have
been gratified, and exceedingly gratified, by
the manue;' in whiidh the tariff policy of last
year ihas beea received by the country. We'
believe that that policy has given unbound-
ed aart:lftfactkni. We did not make the mis-
take, aaid we dk> nioit malre fhe mlartake
now, o! supposing that the tariff is perfect.
There are duties l» it which are higher than
some of us would like tihem to be. Tlieire
are ^ties which we hope will not remain
tor ever or for a very long time. There has
been, kow«»ver, a very general recognition
among the friends of the government of the
fact that, in a matter of this kind, it is ne-
oeseary that wt should proceed In t*ie spirit
ol compromise. It was realised that, in a
lairge qmitibtn, aJTedtlng such a wide area
of oorantry, witto so many conflicting inter-
eets, . we could oaUy hope to work out the
details of the tariff by giving and taking, as
reapeetR the different sections of the coun-
try. It was recoj^niaed by the people tbat
we ought to avoid, as we did, euch radical
changes as might be calculated to seriously
disturb the busdness ol the country. All
tihase conBlderartlons, Into whdeh the Sor-
ermment were bound to enter, and whlcfi
lnflu;e«ed the policy of the Government to
a con»idnrabI« extent, have been recognized
by !t9w public at large. I believe tbe people
are rs«»oiMibl« M that respect, and will not
ask vm to make «^ oiiee that which would
be a radical cban^ asid f*«t whldi miglhit
hSTS & disturbing iinnuttnce 'on bnsinesH.
I tMalt It will be aKbnttted that freiquflnit
tariff ebangee are not dbeeirable. Some-
thlag in tlie natans of tatlff stability is mneb

i to be desired:. It is better, even, that we
j abould bear with some lnequaliti(« that
I may eaiat, than suffer the greattr evils
■ which would arise from frequent tariff
I changes. We have had repreeenitatloni; made
by a jiumbeir of intarests wnictb, tlhey tbiltnilc,
ought to receive more consideration. Some
of tdieee presented cases which have, to, some
extent, commended them to our Judgment,
and If we were oper.Jng up the general revi-
sion' of tJie tariff, or a revisit to any coih-
sldecrable extent, we would be able to letad a
willing ear to some of the representations
tluat have been made to us. But we think,
Sir, on the whole, belieiving as we do that
the cthangee in tlie tariff should not be nuim-
erous or frequent, believing that we sboaild
have a large measure of tariff stability, be-
lieving that the public understand the policy
of the Government in this respect and will
be content to have ut carry it out in that
spirit of moderation and oantiion that wb
have so far avineed, we wish to announce to
the House that it is lot our intention to
maloe any mumeroiis changes in the tariff at
the present session, in fact. I may state
that, so far as the rates of duty are con-
cemed, we liave only one change to an-
nounce. Tbei-e are some other changes which
are more matters of form than of substance,
•rtie preferential taTlff will have to be amen-
ded in the direction I have already Indicated.
We think it is expedient to make a change
that is purely technical in the secridon ol tbe
law relating to prohibited goodsu As re-
spects the duty on raw leaf tobacco, which
we imposed a year ago, we propose that, af-
ter the Ist July next, it shall be collected
I through the Department of Excise Inateadi o#
through the Department of Custioms. It has
been arnamgied that in the Excise Depart-
memt the duty sihall be collected on a basis
on what is nailed in the Inland Revenue De-
partment the standard weight. Uader tihe
existing law, toba<rco is dtitiable on tiie
weight when it passes through the customs.
ArranxementR have been made by some o2 the
large m ami fart ureM to dry tobacco betore it
passes out of the warehouse, so that theor
do iKot pay on the moist weight. Other
mannfacturnra, not being so well able to do
that, are obliged to pay on the moist
weight. It seems only fair and equitable
that we should treat all aMke, and when it
is to t>e diealt with by «he Excise Deport-
ment, that the regulations of that diepart-
tnemt ahonld be adopted In the matter. With
regard to the duties on tobacco, which were
Increaaed last year to a consideaieble eit3en.t.
I am tree to say that I have doubts that this
is as wise a measuire as we boped it would
prove. I may say frankly that I aan a<mid
it has led to an incraaee of smuggling to a
very eonsdderable enctemt, and wp may wall
considieir, at a future <iay, wheth '• or not we
can sncceaslully eaftforce so high a scate of
duty. However, the law in that respect
has beeoa in force for a very abort ttae, sad

iD, that we
ilitiM thcut
reattr enrite
luanit tariff
atlcnii) made

the>y tSutnk,
tifm. Some
ive, to. 9ome
ir Jud^neint,
^etneral r©Tl-
tx) any co»-
lie to letud a
resentationfl
t we think,
v^e do that
Bot be TmxD-

we should
ability, bo-
d the policy
ct aud will
ut in that
n that WB
announce to
itentlon to
:b© tariff at
may state
y are con-
ge to an-
Migee which
( substaiQca.
to be ametn-
y Indicated,

a chi8ung«
ifdon o< tbe
tdsi. As re-
icco, which
se that, af-
I collected
I Inateaxli at
«n8. It ha«
e Depaiit-
ou a ba49to
leveinue De-

Uaderr tihe
i on tiie
e cnBtom».
jome o2 the

betore It
that th«T
it. OtbftT
able to d)o
the moist

1 equitable
vd when it
se D©p«rt-
B't diftpart"
itter. With
vhJeh w«re
ble exDBivt.
n that it&l*

it would
am afraid
fiiag to a
may weil
or no* we
a scale of
0it rmpeet
tfme, «od

we think it only reaeonable to give it a
fairer trial betoire we condemn iA Bo we
do not propose to make any change with
regard to tobacco except as I have juet an-
nounoed.

But, Sir, while it is a good) thing to
avodd what is called tariff tinkariing, there
is Just a poseibility that in condemning that
practice we may go too far. I find tluut
tariff tinkeiring Is an expreeelon which
means different things in the minds of ditter-
ent men. A majn who le quite satisfied
with the tariff thinke that any iancertenemoe
with it is tiiUiering, wheaeae a maa who is
a<yt satisfied' thinks that some change such
as be desires would be high stateeimflnehlp
We wish to guard against trequenit changeis
in the tariff, against tarlfl tinkering, but
let us be careful how we convey the imprea-
sion to the public, because we do not mean
it, tihart we regard the (tariff as flnial. Le<t It
not be supposed that the tariff is settled
lor ten years or even for five years. So long
as there are high diuties, there mu»t be iet-
mands tor tariff changes. Nothing is settled
umtil it is serttled in aoooirdance with rigiht,
and so long as there are high duties, we may
expect agitation for reduction, J am afraid
there is no rest for the protected manufact-
urer. 1 am 'inclined to think, Sir, that he
will find eternal vigilance to be the prJOB of
his protection. He must be on guard all tbe
time against the attack that he knows must
always come. So long as there are high
duties, there will also be consumers to pro-
test against them, and I think that the
manufacturers will show the best undeov
«ta>ndlng of their own poedtioni, and best
ooQsnlt the permanent Initareeits of manufact^
oring enterprises, it they will lealize that
very important fact. It is well, If they are
to-day in a position which affords them some
oomitort and advanttaige, that they should
app^jr their time and use their opportunitjy to
get their business upon sfuch a basis that it
will be as little as po&slble dependent upon
tariff aid. The tendency of a high tariff po-
licy is to lead men to look too much to tar-
iff and too little to the efforts they should
tnake for the benefit of theiir business. What
a world of good might have been accom-
plished for the true lnte«Bite of mannfiact-
uiriiig in the Dominion of Canada, it all Lhe
time, and all the energy, and all the laboTir,
aEid all the money that have been expendlsd
in the last twenty years in tariff watching
and tariff wire^-puUIng at Ottawa, had been
eKjiended In tije factorleA. In the develop-
metit of business, in new invention and dis^
covery. In prodtuclng labour-saving machin-
ery, in learning what might be dicme with
waate prodncts, !« deniling wit4i all (those
fomjs of indnstrial progrees which have to
be dealt with by the m anulactcrer when he
has ikeen competitioB. We Vvtld, tiienre-
fore, say to the manufacturer •■• t if he d«K
■ires permanency in the tariff, he must cenrer

expect penuaneocy until the tardff gets dow)
to a moderate point; and tO'^ay there are
duties in the tariff so high that I am siare
ttie Government are not prepared to treat
them as part of a permanent tariff. I ifty
this, Sir, in no spirit bnt that of trieiwllinssB
to the manufacturing Initsrests. While the
manufacturers are in a I'airly good positioo
to-day, It would be a mistake for them to
tail to realize the fact that Canada has tam-
ed her face away from a high tariff policy,
and thougih we may proceed slowly, what-
ever progress we maike from this time for-
ward must be and should be in tihe direction
of greater freedom of trade.

Hon. gentlemen have already observed that
in the Imperial Parliament the Colonial Sec-
retary, tbft Right Hon. M.r. Chamberlain
made some reference to negotiatloins that
were taking place between the Dominion of
Canada, United States and the West l.i lies
with regiard to reciprocal trade. These ne-
gotiations, so far as Canada is •onee''ned,
hiave not gone very far, ajid we have not
mnch to communicate to the House concem-
i<ig them. But we are of opinion that,
without waiting for the completion of these
negotiations, vrithout waiting tor tbe deve-
lopment of all that 3 likely to arise in eoor
nection with that subject, there are oppor-
tunities opening to us to-day of which we
should take advantage to enlarge the trade
between Canada amd the West Indies. We
think thiat something of this kind should be
attempted in the interest of Ganjadian
trade, because there are large opportuBltles
of development in that quarter. There are
a million and three-quarters of people in the
British West Indies, it we include Ber-
muda, who are our natural customers, with
whom we should have more exteraded tvaelt
relations. When we remeanber that of the
830,000,000 pounds of sngar consumed Ifa
the Dominion of Canada, only 25,500,000
pounfds come from the British West Indies,
onr natural customers, and tWat tbe re-
mainder comee from other courwbries, larg«>-
ly from oontlnenftal nations which supply as
with beet sugar and take little or nothing
from us, I tlhtnk the Houst will agree with
me that we ougiht to desire an extension of
our trad* with the West Indioi and to eoor
sums to a larger eixtent the products of that
country. If w* were to put aside all other
v>nskteratio«s, the advosntages of trade with
that country appeal so strongly to us that I
am sure the H'uae would desire us to make
sune special ei^oit to extend oor trasl^ass
in Ihar Quarter.

But there is another consideration wblofe
we may well t«ke Ijvto oor minds. Tfee West
Indte question ttMJay is one of the pwrt
problems of the Empire. I» Utaa olden d^y«
when sugar was Mng, when cane sugar
was In greO't demand and at high pries the
• West lnd)ia cotoniee were among the moait
proi^eirous eoionies of the Empire. Bu^

!!^!(:

lilili'

lil

ii"

timoi have atuLfiged in that respect, to soma
exter.t, aud tiie Wenrt Imdlea are Aufferiug
to-day from a rery severe d«pre8Hion. What
the (MU1M0 o{ tnait depu*eMlQia are, may pcMiai-
bly \yi a subject of cootemtlon, to «oine ex-
tent. It is alk>«0d that the depireeaion is lilie
reealt of a tallure on ttie part '^f the Wetit
India plantfliri to live up to the timen, amd
to impmove their mcithiodB of growing and
tihelr raethotdK of treating sugar. I give <th&t
tm. on« cMusoiu vrhich is eiometimas alleged
againat thnu^ not that I tndone the opln-
lonr. Share i« no doubt wibatever that >m-
otlMT eoitdiltiou hoiB .operated veiry largely
against them, and that la the developmecut of
the beeti sugar in/dustry, particularly in the
case of the »onrtiinieffi:tal nations where bonin-
ties are giT«n. The West Indtee claim tdbat
as' reBpeotfl the conSlct between cane sugar
and be«t augar, the WeBt IndieB could' hold
their own but for the dlflBculty which is
«re«ft«d by t\i» bounity system of Europe, not-
&b^ of the vartous contiin«aital natioiis. Just
haw tar that Is correct is perhaps a matter
upon whdch nomie of us can give a conclusive
oplnfoa. Wha(t we do know, however, la that
thvm million avd a bait to a million and
threwMiaarterR of people in these islands, are
fluffeiring a very severe depreesion. Thedr
flnainoes ai* in a bad positlofn, the business
of tb« Islands is In a baid position, the eom-
ditlou of the West Iindjies Is at this moment
a very ssrious subjaet to the people of the
oolanisa, and a vary grave pfoblem tor ftbe
Imperial Govemiment, and the Imperial Par-
liamernrt. So Iceemly lias this matter been
felt ot late, that a few mocoiths age a royal
commisstoa was appoin,ted by Her Majesty
to Inquire into the condition of the Brit-
ish West India colonies. That commission
was ccmposied of G«neral Sir Henry Norman,
Chairman, Sir David Barbour and Sir Edi-
ward Grey. These geratJemen made a very
exhaustive Inquiry into the condition of the
Was* Tndiee; and they reached conclusion*,
some ot whloh wiwe nn«nlmoiBe, and some
of which were matters of division. It was
agreed that the financial paaltioo of the
Weert Indiee was so embarrassed lilhat the
Imperial dovernment would have to gremt
aid in ttie way of loans aond ^ants for pub-
He woita, and that, I may say, . is being
done ait this moimant by meamiree whtdh are
before the Imperial Parliament. The dialiv
man of the commisedon, Sir Henry Norman,
w«at further. He claimed that they were
not likkdy t/> be succemful in dealing wttta
the Wee* Xmdla question unlese they were
prepared to adiopt a policy of countervailing
dutlas, that ie to say, that wherever a con-
tJbieaQita! oaition granted a bounty upon its
lie«rt Mtgar, there should be a counter-
vatihMir «*oty upon that sugar if importeii! In-
to flr«at Hvitain. ThAji ■n>tis<.t hss Y^fsi
▼epy much dlsouewrf In Great Britain. I do
not Mklift; tfce aidvocates of countervatlfng ■
datiM them are very nnmepons, but they art

' certainly very iintelligent, able aaid influeok-
tial, aiKl an imprfcasion existtid in tiie minds
I of mauy people that Her Majesty's Qovenv-
ment would yield to the recommendation of
I Sir Henry Norman and establish coontervail*
inig dutiee. However, any doubt that might
have exisitieid on tnat score has been removed
of late by a speech delivered at LiverpoKJl by
the Colonial Secretary, Mr. Chamberlain. In
thait sipeech he indicated that the British
Qoveirnmonit were not prepared to accept the
remady of countervailimg duties, but that
tbey would seek in otheir ways to aeslst the
position ot the Weet Indiiee. I have already
sitated tliat me<a»uree are before the Imper-
ial Parliament now to give aid in the shape
of grants and loaiiQ for public worlds. It is
also the desiire of Her Majeisty's Qovemmenit
to assist the West Indies hi otQier ways. Ef-
forts are being made to inldlice the West In-
dia people in some of the islands to give up
iShe gnowing of sugar, and devote their aitt-
tentfon to other pinoducta which it is
thought the islandls will succeesfuUy pro-
duce and no doubt Aominthing will be done
in bhat direi^tian. While t(he production of
sugar has been steadily failing off, the prcK
ductlon of other articles, chielty fruits, hcui
been very largely extended. Still, sugar Is
and mu!*t be tihe chief produc/t of the Wesit
IndieB lor th* present and for a long time to
come: an') unltfis there can be a profitable
manikeit for the sugar of the West Indies, I
am afraid ther« Is not very m«ch hope of the
relief which the We»t Indies desdre being ob-
tained. Knowing as we dio that Her Ma-
jesty's Government are following this qocH-
tion vary cloeely, knowing that they are
dealing with a seriloue problem in the lace
of many difficulties, it has occurred to us
that, as the West Indies are our natural
market, as they are British colonies, thouglh
far away in one respect, colonies witb which
we have close rtelatione, that we have some
Imperial reeponaibilltieB in this matter — it
hae occurred to us that we ^shonW be will-
ing in a small way to lend n helping hand
to those oolondes In the sunny south. If we
adhore too rigidly to the underlying feature
of our preiterential •tariH. I am afraid we
shall have to admit that the terms ot the
'tariffs of t9ie Wesrt: Indies are not favourable
to us, and inerbape w© could not by a mero
reciprocal clause extend the preferential tar-
iff to the West Indies.

We have examined the tariff of the West
Indtee, and we fliid that wbile they are ihtgli
tariffs to a considerable extent, they are in
no sense prote<>itive tarilts. The dutiee im-
posed are largely on food products, and
tSiese, B« we cam well understand, are the
very thin^ that Canada might hope to sell.
I hav* heim a etatemeoift which I shall «vm>

<•■»(•«, tt

tj iu<u»*> itmiiuB TV 111 (reuiuii. UIV 'UU

do f,ie, showinig the operation of tjiese West
India tariffs on some of the chief product^
of Canada :

HKH

e aad Influanr-
1 to tii« minds
3)ty'8 Qovenv-
iiueoMlation of
h counterrttil-
bt that might
been removed
Liverpool by
imberlain. In
the Brltlsli
to accept the
J, but ttat
to aeeist tb«
have already
•e the Impesr^
I In the shape
nrorkfi. It is
t GovecnDmemt
air ways. Ef-
the West In-
cIb to give up
irote thertr ait*-
vhich it is
je«fully pro-
vill be ctoue
iroductlon of
off, the proK
y fruits, hew,
bill, sugar Ib
of the We«t
long time to
a profitable
^eet Indiies, I
h hope of the
edre beinig ob-
tiait Her Ma-
\« this qoe»-
at they are
In the lace
irred to ua
our (natural
Koles, thougb
» with which
e have some
9 matfter — it
>ukl be will-
tielpinig hand
outhu If we
lying fee turn
I afraid we
erms of tbe
t favourable
: by a meir*
erentlal ti&r-

of the W«»t
liey are ihigli

they are k»
le dutleci im-
oductB, and
ud, are the
lope to sell.

»hall «vm>

cS^uit uiv uO

! tiieee Weet
lef product^

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I thluk ift caauiiot be contaiMtod tib«t tti uay
CAM Haem are pamtBctlvs datleia. The^ are
oot dwigaed to arolud« the pnodmcte of Cao-
aifl, or imdned to exclude the prodmcte of
BDiy cwuntry, but tho«« people find that the
nae«Mltiee of theiir revenue oblige thean to
tax to»od prodfticte very heavily. Therefore,
t.1 I eald a momciiiit ago, were we to apply
too rigidly the principle of our ptrefereinitlal
tamitf to those oolonles, I am Inclined to
think we could not properly admit them >to
t^ baneiflit of th«ut tariff. Nevetrthetees, in
view of the comdlbloii of alfaiiB which ex-
ists thetre to-day. In view of our own deeine
to extend out trade rela/tioas wttlh the West
Inddee, in view of the dilfflculties which are
preeeoited ifi the treatment of the queetlon
by Hea- Majesty's Government, and wltth a
desire to auslst in gome small andi modest
'Way in working out these gtreat and ddflS-
cuH problems, we propose that without
waiting for au^thlni^ further, witbout d»-
manding concessdons from oor West India
trlends which their neields might noit allow
them ito grant, without Inaieting upon a
rigldt compliajicei with the comdltlons, we
propose, after tlie first day of August, wb«a
the treaities expire, and whem we can give
full play bo our policy of pfretferemtlal trade,
to etxteod that polllcy to all tftie BritlA col-
onies in the West Indlleei.

The principal Imports to be expected from
(he Went Inddes will 0(f course be augar, but
we ma^y eixpeict other things, and noitabliy
fruits. Ou the other haind, we sihould be
able largely to Increase our sales of Cacva-
dktn products to those Islainds. The mniri-
tlme piovlcces have long carried on a trad*
with those Islands, chiefly Im fish and lum-
ber, tbough other products have been sold
B» well. If we increase our purohasee of
West India sngera, as we hope to do, there
is no reesoin to doubt that our eccpocrts in
these lines will be Increased. But, Sir, w»
do not thltnk this trade anould be coniflmed
to the meyrithne provtnceB; theipe dbes JWJt
soem to be any re«agon why the products of
the province of Ontario and the great w«wt
should not find a l<ajrg« mairkieW In tJhue West
Indies. If we look into the statistics of the
Islands we will find that the West Indies ai«
large coBsiumeir* of foiod products such as wa
raise to Oaaiada, but we And that thle bulk
of those pQFoducts are bedng received from
the Dnitetd States. My hom. friend the
MlnJetea- of Tra^ aaid CSommerce, says,
t(hjroug(h the United States. There is soms-
thiog In that polmt; but I think the great
bulk ol tEiie food products for tne West In-
dies are tlie pirodnctB of the United States
as well as having been shipped from the
United Stwjtes. There does not seem to be
ftuy good reason why the flour, cheese, ba-
con, ham, lard, butter, aaid the various ar-
ticls* which th« farmers of Ootario aiid the
want prodaos could mot have as fair a chance

of sate In, the markielts of th«i West Lodtas
as similar products troia the Undted Statts.
There has beeai a difficulty in the past, I
think, tlhrongh lack of attention to tbtss
markets. Sometimes a merchant, with as
unsaleiaibla atock, thinks it a very slmpl*
thing to dump It on the West Indies mar-
ket, and tfiieoi he complains that he has not
made any moneiy on it. You canmot do busi-
ness in the Wesit Inddes or anywhere else in
that waiy. Our producers must realize tlhsit
in order to sell thedr goods in the West Iik-
dies they must ascertain the conditions ot
the market and adapt themselves to these
conditlotDA. Buti sui«Iy there is no reason
why the farmea-a and merchants of Canada
caoinot adiapit themselves to those martovts
just as well as the farmers and merchantB ttt
the United States. We believe if care be
taken to investigate the market, if cars bs
taken in coHecting the right articles as' to
quality. In sending th<em out at the propsr
time and in the manner of packing thsna,
taking care tha>t tihe quality is what tlbs
West Indian martcet wants and the 9ty<le »f
packags Is what is required, there is a fadr
chance of very oonsidierable extension of
Oaoadlan trade in that quarter. For soms
years we have had two steamsihlp lines
runoAog to the West Inddes; one from Hall-
taz to Jamaica, and the otlier from St. Jolna
and Halifax to Georgetown, Denierana,
which is on tibe mainland of Soutlh Ameries.
But the line from Halifax and St. Jofe»
down oo Demerara is by a route involving
BIO many ports of eall that by the tims
the deetinatlon is veached the voiyage is a
very long one, and the importens at the dis-
tant points claim they (have not the saws
opportunity to trade with Oanada as wltti
the United States. It Is very desirable, it
It can bei acoompllslbed, and though we htm
no proposal to make on the subject to-da^;
we hope something of the klndi will be
; brought about, that a quick and direct liss
I from Canada, not calling at all these way
ports, but calling at Barbadioee. Trinidspd
and Britisih Oudana, may be esibablisheid. It
attention be given to this trade in the w«j
suggested, we have a strong liope, from fs^
quiries made, that a very considerable tradl»
will be built up in. thlat dlrectioin. Whertlhsr
we are successful in doing so or not, «a»
thing Is certain), namely, that the presasiA
condition of th© West Indies and the Caoii^
dian West India trade demands that some «£>
j tort elhonld be made on these lines, and we
[ tSiink till© best wei caa do for the people of
I the West/ Indies Is to say: We will give yos
; the benedit of our prefereraitdal tariff, wlt^hovt
, bargain or anything else, and ws do ant
espent you to make very great eoncsssioos
to us; but if aoy maa^ie can b« dSfvURM!
whi^relby obstacles to Canndilan trade asB
be reoaoyed in that quarter, we (have ns
; doubt iSMd ywu, our brother col on fats, will

xamat \m im tiM
meert jou.

aam* «plTlt b» wt dnlM to

dliK

rt0Bd

Tbere la funotlieir direction In wbioh we
think we can do a little to help the paople
of tbe We»t Indies. TIhe preMtnt method
of lavyilng the »ug«ir dutiee In Canada opw-
atea uniavourably to tihe BUKar tradie wM!h
the West Indies. Tihe duty .a & flat speci-
flc duty of oiier4)!alf cent per pound on raw
angoip. It admitB of very large Tariattoois
and very large injusticeti. A sugar teAtimg
by the pokiriscope at 75 degrees Is worth
86c. per 100 lbs., and 50c. juty repreoantn
58 peiT cent. Sugiair testing 96 decrees is
wonth 12.27 per 100 Ibe.; 50c. duty rwpr*-
sentB 22 per cent, as against 58 pe<r ceiiit on
the lower girad«. I do not pawtend that
we can have ahsoluite equality in these mat-
ters, but It will be admitted that the eys-
teim of kvyiiuig dlutlee operates unequally.
Wa bad for some years in Cain8.da the polaJr-
iBcoipic test, and' I leairn from the custoniH
authorities and from all whoon I hare esikeid
infoirmatJon, that it worked very well. Them
for several years raw sugiar was tree. In
1895, MiC pound was levied. I am not In-
formed, of course, as to what was In the
mind of the hom. member for Tors (Mar. Fos-
ter) when he lervled it. It was probably
levied in a hurry without mudi. thought
being given to It, and it haS operated untalr-
ly. The duty was a small one and I
can readHly understiand that one migbt tm-
agime that there could njot be very mueb In-
equality to applying it. But expertence Ihas
ahown that even with half a cent a pomnd
there is ineK)ua.llty of duty against sngvmi ©f
the lower graeies, and a eonsideiMible qa«n-
tlty of the Weat India sngara is not of bigih
grade.

Wben we deal with food products gone-
rally, it in not desirable to encourage tow
grades, and for that reason a sipaclfle duty
on food Is advocated by aome hon. gentle-
men w*io do not believe in speelflc dutlaa In
otHieir cases: but I call attention to the taet
th«iit raw migan-, ©specially of low grades, In
not a food, and is not likely to b« eatson.
Raw sugiair is a raw material which only be-
comes a food after it is refined, ami thetr»-
fore we have no particular dasirs to leigils-
late against it. Incusftnuch as theno is a
considerable quantity of low gradie sugiar,
not so low as 75 degreee, out of rooderataly
low gr»da»f mi the marktt, It Is not the
buslivcBB of Caauidia to turn awaiy the trade
whileh this sugar offers. White ottr tairffl Is
operating jn tiKit way, the tariff of the
United State* is gradtmled so as to encoau-'
a^e the tirade Id theee low gradsi sngiani.
They have adopted the polar!»coplc tiwt and
tJhm eneet is to sstiabllflh a graidtoated aeale of
duties wherreby low giractes pay In nrnpttf^
tion to ttielr value. 1V»« poliuriaeopie tiy-
tma is practically nnder anothor nasne an «d
TiaJniPesn duty; low gstade sagsr pays lt» pre^

portdon and higfi ip'adc pays aeeordlng to It*
value.

We therefore propose to return to th« po-
larieciopic system used in Canada so eucees*-
fully a few years ego. We propose to begin
at the limit of 75 degrees by polaniacoplc
test and charge for that decree or aniythirag
below it a duty of 40c. per 100 lbs., and we
acHA l%c. for each additional degree. The
average test of raw sugar used in Canada
to-day IS so .far as we can obtain iniorma-
tlon, 92 degrees by the pol^iscope. That
ln<tonmatlon come from the refiners, who poe-
•esB the best knowledge; one gave 9194 OtoA
tiM Other 92 degreea. Assuming that to b«
tibe correct average, and applyiing our new
•Rale of duties to the preBent consumption of
sugar in Canada, we find that on 92-d©gr©«
sugpar the duty will be 65 %c. per 100 ll»s.,
aa against 50c. per 100 lbs. under the prei-
sent tariff.

In the early part of my remarks, I stated
that In consequence of the reduction we are
obliged to make in duties on British import*
after let July, and to maintain our finances
In a strong condiitiom, wt want to moks
some material adidiitlonB to our revenue in
some other quarters, and we propose to do
It in the way of hiaJoing a »niall increiase tu
the duties on sugar, although the dotdes we
propose will be very much less than those
which prevailed in Canada a tew years ago.
At 92, if we take that as proper standard,
the duty shall be 65% ceoita per 100 pounds.
But there must be considered In that con-
nection the pipelerentlal tiarifl to which I
have referned, and which will take effect as
re^ardb the West India sugar after tlM» Ist
day of Atigust neati. If we apply that pre-
ferential tariff to the 65% ceato per 100
pounds, the quarter of it under the prefer>-
ential rat© will be 16 37-oOthe, which will
leave the prefeiential rate at 49 1-8 ueoiits
OS against the existing rate of 50 cents per
100 pounds. That Is to say, upon so much
of our sugar consumption as we may be
able to obtain from the British West Indies
under the new oa-der of things there will b*
no increase, but on tlie contrary there will
be a slight radiuctiom, of duty, it being— 41
the average as giiven bo me is correct —
49% as ragainst 50 in the present tariff. But
as respects that portion of the sugar vvihlch
nnay not com© from the West India*, but
which may come from other countries there
win of course be the amall liscTease I have
mentioned.

Mr. WALLACE. It mtist be the prodtuo-
tlon of the West Indies; not only sent toPom
there but produced there.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. Ofa, yesf
<vertaln^y. In the ease of friactdoes of a de-
Sfpss ws propose ttoat where a trmcttoa fa
Sv«r-teuiiui« or less it shall not cCmiDit, but
where "It Is more than flveHtenths It shall
count as a degree, so that for tian pttrposQ
of revenue we will have no fractions, woe

1 I

ev«a to th* cxtMit of bait a Oitgtm.

Tbe etiect ot t^la upoai tbc rr venue la a
very dilUcult quwtton to deal with ajid we
can oinly gueae at It. It d«peodfl eotireVy
upou liow much augar may com« Ld under
tbc plVilaremtlal rate. UpooD all augax that
may come in tpora tbe West Indileo under the
piraforejitlal rate we will necalve no Increase
wbatever, but will receive a little less duty
tbaoi under tiie present tao'iff; put lor what»
ever may come in Irom oth»r countries we
will receive an Increase to tbe eKtent of 15>^
ee^<t«i par 100 pounds. We tblnk it will give
ue a mod«ratie amount of reveiniue. One
can only guess at how much revenue it will
give, because we Iiave no meana of knowing
as to what ppopartlon of West Iiuditia sugair
will be drawn into our mairkeit* by thla ar-
rangnment. Our hope and deelre is tbat
we fchall largedy increaae the Qoin»umptioii
of West Indies sugar. As 1 ni ationed a
moment ago, uur consumptiiooi of sugar ta
330,000,000 pounds out of wlhicth we receive
at pieewnt only 25,500,000 pounds from the
BnitiiBih West Indies and Britiaih Guiana,
bat we trusi that the erteot .of thiis arraiigei-
menit may be to largeliy increase that. If
our anticipations in that respect are realized
we will of oottrse get mo increase of duty
frfjm that source but will actually get a lit-
tle less. Howeiver, upon so much ot the
sugar as may not come from tihe Wewt In-
dies, we will get an inore«»3e to the eorteoit
cf ir>H cents per 100 pounds.

With respect to Ulie duty on roflned sugar,
we propose to apply the polariscope to that
also. In tlie case of raw bugar we take as
our starting poimt 75 degrees, but In the
case of neflned eugar we tabe as a miaitter
of course a higher etiarting yolrot.

We pm>pose that the duty on reftned sugpar
shafll be J1.08 c«ntiB p«r 100 pounds on sni-
gar testing 88 degrees, or anythtng below
that; and tar ©very additional degree th«rt
will be 1>4 cents per 100 pounds added, Just
as in the case of tbe dnnty on raw sugiar.
•o what is called yellow sugar teettng 88
degrees, the tncreaBe of duty under this ar-
raogemeint will be 8 cents per 100 pounds;
altfeough the Increasad duty on -tihe raw ma-
terial, or so much oif It as may come from
otliOT cou-wtrleB than the West Indtai, will
be eonsdderably In erxcees. If you start at
fl.08 for 88 deigreos, and if yo<n add 1%
cents for each degree, you will find tSiat the
granulated at 99% will bear a dtrty of
tl.24% per 100 pounds as atgalnst the fl
doty of the present dasy. That is to say, the
tncnease of the duty om the refined eugar will
vAry from ome-tweltth of a cent per pound
on the vpUow ot »ofit sugars, running up on
ip-anulated ao Idgh as 24% cents pea- 100
pcasMls, or prectlnnlly on the higher and
more valuable sugar an tncreaae of a quart-
er of a cent per pound; wfadle In the c«afe of
the cheaper refined sn^rs the IncniNMe nrfU

be aiboiit 8 eentifi pev 100 pounda aad ap-
wards.

I have now explained all the tariff eAuunt**
which we propose to make. I want now t»
read, with your permission, Sir, th« aeiw
preferential section and schedmle :

"That It is eacpedlent to pirovlde that sec-
" tlon seventeen ol "The Customs Tariff,
" 1897," shall be repealed on and after the
" fiast day of August in the present year,
' ' one thousand edght hundred aud nlnety-
" eight, and thai the tollowlng sectloit shall
'* be sulwtituted therefocr : —

"17. Aintlcles whdch are tlie growth, pro-
" duoe or manufacture of any of the foltow-
" ing countries may, when Imported dlTCet
** into Canada from any of such countrtes,
" be entered for duty or taken out of wwe-
* house for coneuraptlon In Ganada at the
" reduced rate of duty provided in the Brl-
" tlsh preferential tfeirlff, set torth in Sche-
dule "D" to thf«i Act : —
(a). The tJniiteid Kingdom of Great Brlitialn

Ireland,
(b). The British Colony of Bermuda',
(c). The Britisih Colonies commonly called
the British West Indies, tncludlng
the following : —
The Bahamas..
Jamaica.

Turka Island and the Oaloos Island.
The Leeward Islands (Antigua, St.
C&iiri«tophen"-N«vl», Dominica, Mont-
serrat, and the Virgin Islands).
The Windward Islands (Gronada, St.

"Vlocenf and St. Lucia).
Bfwrbadoes.

Trinidad and Tobago.
British Guiana.
These ookmiiieB aire admitted sipecifloally
without nviuind' to amy reciprocal condiitions.
(d). Ainy other Brltdeh colony or poeaee»-
lon tJie customs itiarlff of which, on
tbe whole, is am f&vourable to Oan-
aida as tflre Brltlsb preferential tar-
iff herein referrad to Is bo such col-
ony or possession.
"Provided, however, that manutaotored
" antilcteB to be admitted under such prefer-
" emtilal tariff »hall be bona fide the maini-
" factureB of a counitry or countries entltied
" to the benefits of such tariff and that meb
" benefits shall not extend to the imports-
" tlon ot artJcles into the production of
" which there has not entered a substantial
'* portion ot the laboor of sncb QoiunitrleaL,
" Amy qtwstlon that may aH'«e as to any
" article being enttltled to va i benefits sball
"be decldefl by the Minister oi Custom*,
" whrOCK deciadon shall be final.

"2. The Minister of Ousitoms, with tim
** approral of tJie Governor In ConancJl, sltall
" defaenmlne what Britlsli colonies or poa-
" sessions shBJl be entitled to the benefits ot
" the preferential tariff undsr ciaiiBe (d) or
" this aeetloo.
"8, The Minister ot OnsitoQM may, with

" tthe appjwval of tb« Govenaor to Ooancil,
" uko^e auch ragulatiuoiB a» may be deemed
" ii«caa»ai7 for carrying out tlM Intention of
" tl]d« sectioni."

Ton will BW, Sir, thiat under tiha airraDgi»-
mentt propocied w«f admit by name tfae pro-
duets of Qneat Britiain anjd tbe ptnoducts of
tthe Brltieih coloouleB iu tihe V/emt ludluB; amd
tten we kavm a genienal clause wheireby we
may admit the products of amy otiher Brltlatb
colooiry tibei tariff ooiMlitlona of which are
daesnAd to be favourable to Caiuaida. Under
that clauBO we will adimlt at once the pro^
ducts of New Scnitli WalMs amd tiie producte
of Brltifiih India; ajiid if the tariffs o<f any
oitftwr cokmiee are or shall b« made favKrat-
able Qoid wattefactoo-y tx) Oanada, the aame
becaftt may be extetidied to them. I sball
moT© :

'"Maft Iti ie eccpcditent to provide tiiai Scih»-
" 4ul» "D" to "Th© Ousftoms Tariff, 1807,"
" abaJl be repealed on acd after the Ikwt
" (Akj of AogioBt in tb« preeeot y«(ar, om
" ihanaand edf^bt hundred aind nlicerty-eiglbit,
" mid tbM the followtn^ CKdUedule whell be
" Babetltuterd therefior : —

SCHEDULE "D."

British Pneteretntlal Tariff.

"On wnticks tbo growth,, produce or
" mtlikutacture of ithe United Ktaivdoom of
" QmAt Britain and Ireilaod, or of way Bri-
" tlab colosiy or poBsewsloin ein/titl«d to the
" ^tme&ts of this preferential ttarllt under
" W B ct tt om seven teen, tSie d«iti« meo/tloud tn
" Se&odmle "A" sdtall be reduced m tolkma :
'• — ^The reduction shall be ooei-ftcnirth of the
" doty meotiiosad in Scbeduie '*A,** aauA tJM
" dMQn to be levied, colLeoted aoid paid eball
" te iftiree-fouiftbii^ ot tihe diutiy meoitlooed la
"HAednle "A."

"FirovMed, howev;><«r, Miat this rednetloo
" flfetall not apply) to ^my of tftue lo-llowiinc «r-
" tleWe^ and idnat fluch articles aliAll in all
" OSMA be subject to tbs duties mcn«Ionsd In
"fteliiediule "A," vis.: — ^wljuw, meiit liqaoni,
" qtirits, spirituoue llqinoais, liquid medicines
" <nd articles ooivtainiiiic aloohiol; tobacco,
" ClagrB and cigarettes.

"Provlcted funtfher, tSutt th« reMuetloin
" ehall ooly apply to reftaed mogKe when
"efyidenice satiflifiactioTy to the Mtotsitar of
" •nstotns ie fuirmJshed that sudi retined eu-
" gpar ibas beeii. mairafactured wholly from
" raw sugar pnodnce^ in l&e Brttlsb eoloo»-
" ies or possessions."

Thort is to say, iAi&t iaiaemuch as we would
not admit toreign sugHr in iits «uw state un-
der tmr preiersnftial itariR, w© will oiort ad-
mitt the refined smgnvr made firosn thart raiw
st^ar; but if any sugnr is ireifLned in ooud-
tBles enttttliad iso the besu^fit of thJa piwter-
eii6e, from so^ar grown mot oa](y to tike Wtiit
bidiBS, but a ray w gie re Id tihe Brltl^'' jnnsiMn
ions, thaiti refloed sugar sball 1 dmltiied
tato Oaoada an, itm ttmis ot iSu pretorsRtial
MrUr.

As ws look back, Mr, Speaker, on, the
events of ftlie pest year, we (have much oouse
: for gratification, aoid wbeji w© turn to tlw
future we find it bright and enoooraglng.
\ The signs tfliait meat us eveirywhere to G«»-
ada are those of peace, progress, and pros-
perity. The one quefttion which sertously
j threatened the harmony of our people and
Ui© gioodhwill which should prevail between
I our citlxens of different creeds — a questlaa
which a few months ago was a burning one
I and a oause of grent anxiety — has been so
i happily seibtled tiha/t now it is scarcely men-
I tioraed. At mo time in the history of tb«
Dominion have bhe people been more uniitsdi,
' more harmonious, and more hopeful and
I oonfldesvt respecting the futuire of our ooun-
try. In the centres of manufactures, trade
and commerce, ttheire is an acrtlvlty wMcb
tells of confideaioe in the present and in the
future. Tihe great agricultural inrterests,
wihioh are the toundatAon of oiir country's
prosperity, are on a bertter fooffeing than tor
mamy yeal-s past. Encouraged to praduee
noil only for the home markets but tor the
HBarkerts of the world, our farmers every-
where aoM applying themselves to their
work with Intelligence and skill. The ships
which have come to our seaports during the
past year, are insufficlenit to carry tiie In-
ereasdng volume of commerce, and the ship-
wrights of the world are buay in construot-
tog new ve««©ls for this trade. Our long di»-
layed canal enilargements are being p nw se d
forward to early complatioo, and give pro-
mise of afforcMng taeraaeed tacllitteB tor tb*
traneportatioia of the prodlucts of the great
wwrt to our shipping ports. Railway entsr-
prians east and west are actively aasisting
to the good wort. T*e fl«ftierm©n of our At-
lantic and Pacific coasts oowtlnuie to reap
the rich htarveet of the sea. la all dh^ectioss
we find an extranrdinary dev«k»pmeaut of tte
mdneral wealrth of the Domtoton. Tl» pow-
erful magnet of gold, whicih Is tound In sev-
eral quarters of the Dominton, is doling much
to at)tra«it capita! and population. The new
mtoes in the province of Ontario give pro-
mise of great development and penoHft. In
the east, the mines of Nova Scotia, which
have been working with considerable suecem
for many ynajTS, are to-day giving most' snt-
lsfa«toi7 results, and new discoveries aire
cooisitainrtly being made. In the, west, tbe
province of British Columbia is steadily
growing in fame as a rich mining comnrtry.
The northern r^lons of our Dominion,
whlcfli wore long regardted as of little vaine,
have become (Sources of boum^tees wealth. A
ttmr years ago, as I sait at the breaktasti
table in a Paris hotel, I was addressed by a
neli^bour, of whn8» nationality there cesld
be .no doubt. "S«." he said, "from wittt
part of our Mttle Bepublle might yoe be*?"

^^pubUc" bat tcom itfae gr e ait«r oat to tlw
awtfc. My Mend was puuled fer a aion.
sot, and I bad to rantBd htn that tbs gKWM»-

':i:

i ii

? "i

•^m

I sii

a.:.

ar part of itihe North American GoutloieBiit
did uut beloDv to hia "Idtvtle IlcipubUc," bat
was uudieir tllie Brltteh flag. "Well, Sir," bcr
■aid trlimipihaatly, "we do uoit claim to own
ttM ice bousa." Tlnese grea/t uorthem irec-
\cmja, whilch my Am«rlc&Q trtand dascrlbad ao
oouttemijituously a« "tlie Ice hou»e," am to-
da<y couinted annoiig tlie famioua lauide of tih«
world'. The "Yukon" and "KlK>nidiike" aj»
woorldnwlde names, aod tlhe, laod tiiirougb
whioh itheae rivers run Ih atbtractiiug to Itaedf
many thoiMtaudM of people< (roan tihe great
ce'Dtres of civlUza'tlon. Iji neiarly ervery de-
pairtmemt of lndu«»t'ry In Oaauuia titiere ia ac-
tivitiy and confldiea>ce.

We are oot tooli-jli enougli to claim that
all tills has be«u lii'ougbt about by our po-
licy, al/though we are well aware that it fhe
nesuktB had becin the reverse, the bl<am«,
iu«(tly or un}u8'tly, would ba've rested upoiQ
our aliouldjere. We are well aware, and we
graitefully recognlae the fact, that the pnj»-
p«rity that has oome to Canada is due to
the liberality of a klmdi Providence im glvlinig
OS a bountiful harveat. One thing we do
claim, and all we claim, as respects ouir po-
licy, is that so fair as }e<gislatlve meas.ure9
may help to encourage and strengths^ a peo-
ple, such has beem the resiult of tftie actdoai
we have takeai. Against the repreBemitatlome
of our oppoments we place the record of the
pasrt ymar, and tihie judlgimeint of the Empire
at large. Never was a tariff policy submit-
ted to Pairliamemit, which was received witih
greaterr catisfaction by the people of Canada,
tlian thnut whicfti was aumoumced a year ago.
Naveop in the hd»to(ry of tlh» Britlslh colooiles
was a measure proposed wihlch in so large <v
daggree commanded the Initeiirest aoid received
the approval of Great and Greater Britain,
lit was baited with Joy by the friends of
BritlsJi Imperial umjity in etvecry land. It was
commemded by Her Majesty in her speeah
from ttoe Thirone in th» Parliameint at Weet-
mlnsteo-. It was the subject of thousaoids of
amticles of the miost commendatory charac-
ter, In the Bribiflfli and colonial press. Rud-
yaipd Kipllngi, tlie poet oi the Empire, was
quick to feel the wave of semtiment thart;
passed over Great Britain, and within a few
houre fcom the ansvonncemeooit of ithe tariff,
he embalmed the siu>)Jeot in aplrdted lines
which will live in the iiistory of Canada, and
which, even if, as some bave tihjofugihit, theiy
may cqnveiy Inaccurate ImpreeakMis as to the
ooklaMigs of ^iBT climate, will neventtieleBe
tell to every reader <tfoat im 1897 the heart
of "Our I.ady of the Bmows" was full of
wami'fiff aiiid die>viotlo(D to the iHteoneiRitB of itftue
Empire. British statesmen, both ptiblldy
and privately, eixpreeaed their satisfaction
wltii Qc^aiiadtt's aottoo'. Tfe« Cokailal SeciB-
tas-y, ttoe Right Hon. Mr. Chamberlain, in an
offllclal diOiiimtcb to Hia Exoellency the Got-
entKxr Oeroerai, wliich I shaJti place on tihe
TaWe-— « dwpatcii eommoMeatlng tli« a»-
cisiotti of 3«r Majesty's Mbaisiters rMpeetlng

the affect of the BelglaD and Qermao traa-
tlea — used SKxne words which I ma^ pno-
peirly quote here :

"I desire," said Mr. Ghamberlala, "to add,
" in ooncKision, that the action of the Dch
" minion Government and ParliamtaOit in
" this matter, altJiiough, unfkxrtunately, Itii
'* full effec. will be temporarily poatpooedi,
" has been warmlj welcomed' and appreclat-
" ed by Her Majesty's Government and the
" people of this country, as a measure vv'hich
" cannot tail to result in material bv^jeflt to
" the motiher country and to Canada, and to
" weM tiogeither still micre firmly the ties
" wihlch now unite them."

Sir, the policy which Her Majesty's Gov-
emmfnt so warmly commended, was a po-
licy designed to eetablish preferea^tial brad*
between Canada and the mother counitry.
To-day we suhpi'.t a ixroposal which enlarges
the sphere of th<>(t preferential trade. To-day
we propose to include within Its benefita. a
large group of British colonies, the attatn of
which are at this momeu''^ a cause of m«cb
anxiety to Her Majesity's Government. Thus
step by step the good work goes on. On©
step remains to be itaken, a>nd I believe the
day is not far cMstanit when we Shall be able
to take it — ^a step w'hlcb will extend the
benefits of the preference, not only to Gireat
Britain and the colonies which we have
now Included, but to every oolppy and po»-
seasdon of the Empire.

The following are the resolutions : —

"1. Thart it is expedient to repeal section
* six of "The Customs Tariff, 1897," and
" to substitute the folilowimg section thieine-
" for : —

"6. The impo4-tatiiio(Q iwto Canada of any
" goods enumeraitad, deseribed or refterred to
" in Schedule "C" to this Act is prohibited,;
" and any snoh goods imported stall there-
" by become forfeitetd to the Crown and may
" be destroyed or oiharwise dealt with as
" the Minteter of Custome may direct; and
" any person impontinig any such prohibited
" goods, or oaiufling or permlt<,ting them 'lo
" be Im ported, shall tor each offence. incur a
penalty not eoicieedlng two hundred dollars.

"2. That It is expedient to provide tJiat
" section seventeen of "The Customs Tariff,
" 1897," shall be repealed on and after the
" flrsit day of Augusit in the presemt year,
'• one tlioueand eighft hundred and ninety-
" eight, and that the following section shall
" be swbstitttted therefor t —

"17. Articles which arie the growth, pro-
" diuce or manufacture of any of the follow-
" ing oounitriee may, when imported dl«ct
" into Canadia from any of ewdh counitriea,
" be entered for diuty or taken, out of ware^
" honse for consumption in Canada at tHe
" reduced rate of dnty provld^e^ 1H the Brit-
" fflh preferwitlal tariff ee* (orth in Bcfaeiole
" "D"to this Act :—

(a). Tlie trait«id KittgAoA of OrMtt Britite
and liesiemA.

, pro-

oilow-

tflrect

otriea,

w»re-

t t»ie

J Brtt-

;h«iole

IrltMite

(b). Tb« BrMta^ Cokxvy o( Beavuuda.
e). The Biritlsh ColootaH oommonly ealkert
the HrltMi Wecvt Indloa, loola<Mii«
ittte tullowltnc : —

T\he Baluunaa.

Jamttlca.

Turks iMlajnd aiui tihe Caioo« IsUiiuto.

Tbe DeeW'ard i«la>n<lfl (Anftlgua, Sit.
Olbirtotoiplb«r-N«Tte, Domlodoa, Mioai>-
aamat, and' tihe Virgin jMlaxuim).

Xhe WliuKvturd Islancis (Ghrenada, St.
Vluoeint aiud St Lucia).

BBrl>ado«H.

TriiiilUiad ttud Tobagio.

British Ouiana.
(d). Anty otbsr Brlt*8ih Colony or pobmbb-
kxn fahe ouetocns tariff of which, ooi
tli« whole, is OB favouo-aible to Can-
ada as the Britlah pretoreoitial tafll!
ihea^n referred to is to such colony
Of poaeessloii.

"Provided, howaivw, th^-t manufiactured

airtlcl«8 to be admitited under guch prefer-
atial taotifr flQiall be bona tide tih« manu-

.a«ture« of a country or conntriea entHttfld
- to the bonefitB of such tariff, and that suah
' bein«iflt6 shall not extend to the ImportAf-
' tdioin of Oirticlee initm the piroducitlon of
' which tiheffe has mcxt entmred a aubsitantlal
' potrtiom of the labour of such countries.
' Aoiy question tba/t may eirise as to any atr-
'ticleti bedng antitled to such beneflta ahall
' be d0cid«id by the Minister of Cuatoma,
' whose decision ahall be final.

'"J. The Minister of CuaitomB, wlftli the ap-
; proval of the Govea-nor in Oouncll, aliall
' derternllne what Britisti oolooiles or poasea-
' aiona siball be entiitled to tihe benefits of
'.the praitarential ttiriff under clause (d) ot
'tflJe section.

"3. The Minister of Cusitoms may, with

• the approve,! of the G^aveamor in Couaicil,
' make such regiulations as may be deemed
' oeceflBary for carnyiiing out the Inrtemtiooi ot
' thds hectifm.

"4. That it is efxpedieot to provide that

• Schedule "D" to "The Customs Tariff,

• 1897," shall be (repealed on and after th«
' first day of August^ in the present year, on»

• thousand eJgiht hwiidred and ninety-eigiht,
" Bind that the following schedule shall be

• •ubstftuited thereifor : —

SCHEDULE "D."

BritisCh Pr^erontlaJ Tariff.

•On AiTticlee lUhe ginowtlh, pirodiuoe jtr
maTinfactutre of the TTnlted Klngdoim bt
Great Britain and ImeUmdi, or of any Bri-
tiah colony or posaesieioii emtitled to the
benefits of ibln preAeireiiittal tariff umder aec-
tloin seveateein, the duties ir.esiitioin«d In
Seh«rt»le "A" shall be reduced as follows i
-Th« red(uctIo<n s^all be one-fouith of thfl
idnty mentioned in Schedule "A," and tbq
duty to be krvied, collected end paid sBnall

" be tbrm-fouptiha of tSie duty meotiooed la
"Schedule "A.'

"Provided, iMwerer, tOuit tfads induction
• ahall not a^jply to aiuy of the following
" ajiticlee, and that auch articles al\all In all
" caaas be sublect to itlie duties m«rtio(ned iq
"Schedule "A," via. : w1u«b, malt li^uom,
" apiriits, spirituous llquon, liquid medioiiMM
" and articles comtain,tn« alcoliol; tobaccos,
" alffars aind cigarertles.

"Providedl fmrlLeir that the reduction
" shall apply only to raftnedi amigar when evi-
" dence aatlHfactory to the Minister of Cu»-
" toms is furaiaihed ttoat such refined augac
" ha« been manufactured wholly t»om raw
" sugar produced la Hbe British co*oniea «t
" posaesBlons.

"5. Tliat it is expedii«ut to repeal items
" 485 aiitl +36 ol 8ohe«lule "A" to "The Cus-
" toms Tariff, 1897," amd to subatttute tbci
" following theirafor : —
485. All HugM- above number sixteen
Dutch staawlard in colour, and ail
refined saigars of whatever kinds,
grades, or standards, testin* not
more thaai eighty-elgiht degrees by
the polariscope one diollar and edgiht
cents per one huBdireitl pounds, aod
tor ea<sh addltlomal degree one and
ome-half cemts per ome hundred
pounds. Fractdoaifi of flve-temths at
a dagiree less not to be subject to
duty, aca Iraotloaua of more than
flvfr-teauths to be dutiable as a de-
gree.
436. Sugar, itt.e.8., no»t above oumber
sixteen Dutch stamdard in colour,
sugaa- drainings or pum pings diretoetl
in trameiit, melado or concentrated
melado, tank bottoms and sugar
concrefte, toatlng not more than ee.
venty-flve die^greefi by the polarl-
soope, llorty cenrts per one hundawd
pounds, and for each additional de-
gree ooie amd one-half cants per one
humdrad pounds. Fractdons of flv».
tenths of a degree or lees not to bq
anibject to 6my, and fractions of
more than flve-tenrths to be dutlablt
as a deigmee. The usual packages ia
which. Imparted tso be free.
That it is eixpedlleBit to provide the*

•6.

items 445 amd 446 ol Schedule "A" to
• " The Customs Tariff Act, 1897," shall be
.. r^^*d on amd after the flret day of July
In tie present year, one thousand eight
•hun(ired and alnetyv^lgtot.
/'7* The* it is eocpedrfeiDit to provide that"
on and aiter the first day of July, in the
prwent year, ome tbonsaind eight hundred
and ndnety-edght. the following items shall
be adder] to Schedule "B" to "The Cu».
"toms Taa-iff, 1807" : —
^ '630, Tobacco, uoanenfliiacitunBd, for eat--
else pnrposKT, under aoodl««Mi» of the Ta^
land Bflfvenne Act.
"8. Thait It Is wpedlaut to piwldB Ifcat

WiMM

" OD and aiter the fltwt day of inly. In ttm
" ^wmmlt jmx, cam ttbooaaoud «lgih>t bumdrwl
" aoMl nkDaO'-eiglLt, in a<idltloin to ttM axcImi
" &atlm at pnmeoit lerried 00 memutaottirat^
" tiobhcco, .ei^an and cieairattM, th«.r* •b«U
" b« levied and oollacted the lollowlnc ax-
" clH*«divtiai, that 1* to vay : —

"(a). On all toirelgD raw leal to4t>aceo,
" nnnrtKinuneNl, taken out of wa>r«ibouM for
" nuuiiutactim, In any cigar m tobaeoq
" m«inutaortoi7, teo oants per pound.

"(b.) On all toraign raw leaf tobacco,
" •temmed, taken out of wan»liouBe for miana-
" factnm, In amy clffar or toi)>acco manntaet-
" <ntr, fooiPteen oeo/ta per pound.

"Provide<) tihart: tbie werlgti-t upon which
*• Buch fluty frtiaW he oncnputed shall be with
" rate nonce to the standaird mentioned in
" pairagraph (c) of aectflcm 247 of tb» la-
" land Rerveooe Aot."

Hlr CHARLES HIBBEBT TTIPPER. I
have beein a«dwd by the hon. member tor
TorJc (Mr. Foster) who ia aatfering frocn ra-
ther arrare todiapoaitioo, to move thB ad^
)ouinnme<D<t of the deibate. I aave alrMud^
meoftiOBed tihe enbjeot to tihe ihon. g«ratl»-
m«A who la leading iibi GoveDcnaneint, and
tac ka« been kind eaionglh t» a^rec tn tbtai

conrae being taikeo, aa for obvlooa
it would l>e Incooivanilein/t to breiak tiie
of debate wbicib usually takea pLaee wtam
the ex-^^iaanoe Mlntoter dtecuaaea tSM l»-
turea of tiie Bndgeit aa eapowd by the lil»-
ister of Finance. In hJa b«half, I b«« ftp
move ttfae adjourumcout of the dabata.

The MINISTKB OF TBADE AND COM-
MEBCE (Sir Rlciiard CarHwrlgtit). TOmM
la no objectioo to thia motion. We nmrafe
the oauae very much, we regiret tiie India-
pofldbiou of the boo member, but aa amus-
ed witjh nay boo. frtonid, tiiere will b« no ob-
lection to adjourning the dabotta.

Motion afirreed t», and deibate adijoumad.

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COM-
MERCE (Sir Richard Gantiwrlgilut)) . I avp-
poM if my hoo. friepda oppoalte liave r»-
celved aa much informaition aa thegr oaa
very well ddgieet, even thoiugh it m«y hava
bean aamawihat aw ea l e n ed by the eoncludliic
paragraplba of my hon. triend's apeacb, and
ondar thoea circnmatancea I would beat eoj»-
■ult tlhedr wiahea aod'tiie vlewa of my triMda
bedilnd ma by movli^g th&t tha Hooae do nov
adlaam.

Motion agreed to, and tiie Hooae a/ijomtm
ed at 9.80 p.M,

men
veralti

Scotch
for a
cee.
bear
before
dulge,
as to
wihJdh
Issue
man n
folly
does ii>
with
the slg
It fg e^
wbatei
tkai g)
la«t y«
iTJftnd,
which
bands,
meat,
Icotild
bad be
w<b8a>I
go ovei
of iwos
had bae
•vldemo
Wow,

SI=E3EOH[

Sir Richard Cartwright

MINISTER OF TRADE AND COMMERCE

OTTAWA, 12TH APRIL, 1898.

The MINISTER OP TRADE AND COM-
MERCE (8lT Richard Cartwright). Mr.
Speaker, if my hon. friend's arithmetic is in
other respects as faulty as in the computa-
tloo he maicea of the number of yeers we
have been in office, I am afraid tie ties a good
deal to learn. I beg to intorm him that
twenty months of office do not by any sys-
tem of arithmetic that is known to me,
equal two and a half years, though I can
well l>elieve that the twenty momiths have
seemed as long as thirty to my hon, frle^^

Now, 8ir, it has beem remarked by petwom
who take am Interest in that kind of thing
that there are few slghta dearer to gods and
men than to see good men struggle with ad-
versity.

I am bound to aoy that I, like a noted
Sootch divine, feel a little compassion even
for a naughty mam under slitLllar ciicumstan-
ces. My hon. friend, I think, will in future
bear in mind tliat it is wise not to prophesy
before he knows, and he undoubted!/ did in-
dulge, two years ago, in various pro^becfes
as to tlie results of the QoverroneDt policy,
which have hardly lieen fulfilled by the actual
Issue of events. Sir, I think the hon. gentle-
man migiht learn, by this time, that it is
folly to struggle with mandfeet facts. He
does not' deny— «ny so far I do not find fault
with him — ^the fact of manifest prqsperlty,
the signs of which meet us on every side; and
It is equally idle for him, wnder any pretext
whatever, to demy the Blgnlflcance of the poli-
tical gain which Canada has nwide within the
laijt year under the guidance of my right hon.
(rtesd, a;h<d most particularly in the reception
whlcAi our trade proposals met with at the
bandit, not merely of the l^glish Oovem-
ment, but of the English nation at large. Sir,
I cotild not but feel how grievously the tables
had been turned upon my hon. friend,
w<heni I iieerd the l«on. the Minister of Finance
go over, one by cite, all these various indicia
of jHSMmertty, to —"hfe*, In fonner timrn, he
had b«M» yrvat to polot «s icontrovertiblf
evid«ncea of the goodness of ihelr pbllcy.

Now, Sir, I do noit take it for granted that

the increases of savings deposits are imvit-
ably a proof of the great prosperity of the
oountry at large, nor yet the bank dep'wits,
nor yet tlie drculation, nor yet anv of these
matters. What I have said before, and what
I repeat now, la this : They are all poi>d,
and very good, so far as Lhisy go. I nev*r dv
nied that, so far as they went, they wets
good Indioatlons of prosperity; but I poiD\'ed
out then, and I potnt out now, that there are
other far more important indications of proiv.
perlty which accompany these indicia to-day,
and which were notably absent during th«j
entire period of the administnation of the
hon. gentleman and his friends. It is good,
it is VQry good, to see our savings l>aink de-
posits dxpand, to see our circulation expand,
to see our exports and Imports expand ; but
it is not so good when, as in his time, cer-
tain of those indications were accompanied
by a marked diminution In the vnlue of pro-
perties over ain enormous airea of the coun-
try, and, whnt I always esteemed a fa* more
important matter, when they were accom-
panied by an enormous exodus of the best
elements of our country. But, Sir, were It
tfh© case to-day, as it was then, that the peo-
ple of Canada were flying from their country
by tens of thousands, aye, and hundreds of
thousands, I would not, as I do now, claim
that these are proofs that a new era of
prosjjwity had dawned upon ner. Sir, I am
happy to tell the hon. gentleman that cir-
cumstances hare changed; I am happy to be
able to tell him — and I have not tha slightest
doubt tlMrt the approaching census will ecoi-
firm. In tito highest degree, all that we state
here to-day — ^that, at long last, alter eight-
een ySars of misgovemment, the tide has
turned, ttmt Canadians are now remaining In
their own country, and that we are not like-
ly ai^ln to see the miserable spectacle which
his own province ejdiiblted to the world,
when, In 18»1, lit turned ont that the total
growth of the gntit province of New Bruns-
wick, with room and space enough to accom-
modate twice or thrice its present popula-
tion, was, I think, some 82, all told. Now,

I'M
' ?!

pfc

X wonkl uk tiM hon. g«ntlemaii, why he oan-
iMt quletty accept the preeent altuatlon 7 I
am not goirag to dl«pnte with him tlie (act
that luck has been an our alae to a very oou-
•ldanal)l« exteut (lurtitg the la»t year or two.
I remember the time w*hen time* were not ho
proaperoua tor th« Liberal party; i remember
the times when none were more forward than
the iKMi. gentleman who sits Immediately op-
poalte to me (8lr Charles Tupper) In denounc-
ing tli« Liberal party because of a world-wide
'lepretwtuu, which affected all the other ooun-
trtes with which we had any acqualntaaioe
or knowledge, luflnltiely more thac It did
Canada.

But what I more particularly wish to call
the attention of the House to Is the new
role of economist In which my hon. friend
appears. He Is very grievously alarmed nt
the extravagance which distinguishes the pre-
sent Administration, and, very early In hin
speech, I perceived that be made a very spec-
ial charge against us, that we had added
91,400,000 to his last year's expenditure,
and that. In this identical year, we were
about to add fl,800,000 to bis last year's
expenditure. Now, Sir, I like to see an hon-
est statement made, particularly by an hon.
gentleman In his position ; 1 like to see an
honest statement made of what the actual
comparison should be between his last year's
expenditure, and our expenditure for the
present time, and I think, when I get
through with the matter, the House will be
convinced of this one thing, that, whatever
other merits the hon. gentleman may claim
for himself, that of making an honest state-
ment of the actual state of affairs in the last
three or four years, is one to which he can
lay very little claim. I believe It is quite
true, that the hon. gentleman, in the year
1896, had gone out of office with an ex-
penditure of 9S7,000,000, in round numbers.
But it is not true, that the hon. gentleman
had effected any permanent saving or reduc-
tion on the expenditure of the preceding
year, which for 1895 amounted to $38,200;-
WO, in round numbers. Sir, I hope my hon.
friends will bear tbls fact in mind ; I hope
my hon. friends will take care, whenever
appeal Is made to the last year ot the hon.
gentleman's expenditure, to call the atten-
tion of their audience to the fact that, if
ever there was a case of colossal cooking, it
was the cooking that was practiced by that
hon. gentleman for obvloijs party reasons in
the year 1896. He made no permanent sav-
ing, be made no genuine reduction of the
public expenditure. What he did was to
throw over a million or more of expenditure
properly belonging to that year, 1896, on to
the shoulders of the year 1897. He did it
for obyjous party purpose ; he did it, fore-
seeing that, !n view of the perilous position
in whieb the nest of traitors found them-
se!-?ss, the country was extremely likely to
exp^«m, Aft. QDfBToarable opinion of men

who did not respect the obligations imposed
upon public men of holding up i high stand-
ard of public faith. He took all the care he
could, so to arrange his accounts that he
might appear to make a reduction, no mat-
ter at what cost or at what risk of demoral-
ising the public service. I'be methods he
adopted were mainly these two : He totally
neglected to call out the militia and give
them any exercise In the various camps,
thereby rendering almost the whole of the
expenditure for the year for militia purposes
absolutely useless ; and in the case of pub-
lic works, in like manner, he deliberately
cut down the necessary expenditure, with
the effect, as my hon. friend can show him,
of Involving for the Hucceeding year a great
deal of additional and unnecessary expendi-
ture, by reas(m of the parsimony — no, 1 can-
not call it by so honourable a term, but by
reason of the most improper reductions
which he made in the service of that year.
What would any railway company, having
a similar Income, say of a manager who
came forward and claimed that he had
made a reduction of $1,400,000 in expenses
for a particulex year, when It was shown
in the preceding year he bad spent almost
precisely the same sum that was required to
be expended for the succeeding year, and
when, what is more, his own estimates,
nomin my bands, show distinctly that so
fai^rom effecting any permanent reduction,
he contemplated in his first original estimate
an expenditure of $88,859,000 for 1897. Sir,
I say the hon. gentleman has no right what-
ever to come before this House and con-
tend that the expenditure actually Incurred
in 1893 was in any shape or form a true
proof of the extent to which he had re-
duced the expenditure. His real year with
which comparison should be made is either
the actual ascertained expenditure of 1895,
which amounted ta $88,200,000; or his own
original Estimates, 1 will not charge him
now with the Supplementary Estimates for
that year, for the yiar 1896-97, which I
have under my hand. And If the boa.
gentleman wants to make comparisqns with
the Estimates now submitted by my hon.
friend the Finance Mlmlster; I am porepared
to show him, and 1 shall be prepared to
show this House after six o'clock, that for
the Identical services for which that hon.
gentleman demanded $88,359,000, iny hon.
friend is asking less than $88,000,000. All
the rest and excess I propose to show the
House, Is incurred for services and for pur-
poses which will probably return into the
treaaary quite as much as we take out of it,
but for which there was no shadow of equi-
valent in the Bstlmates brought diown by
that hon. gentleman. As It will take a little
time to go Into that comparison, and it is
hardly worth while to repeat it after recess,
I shall be obliged jf you, Mv^ Speaker will
call it six o'eloek.

itlmate
Sir,
what-
con-
jcurred
true
ad re-
wlth
olther
1896,
Is own
him
68 for
hlch I
hoH.
IS with
bon.
ipared
ed to
I at for
t hon.
r hon.
All
the
pur-
ito the
o! It,
equl-
rn by
llttlfr
Id It iB
reeeu,
will

It balng 8tx o'eloek, th« Hpe«k*r left tb«
CMOr.

AFTER RECESS.

The MINlSTEai OF TRADE AND COM-
MERCE. Mr. Speaker, when the U6\i»t
roM, I bad been calling attention to the
■tatemeut luade by the hon. member tor York
(Mr. Foster), and on which, as the House
will have ooaerved, a very largo portion of
hia whule speech depended,, that the present
Government had beeu guilty, as compared
with himself and his {ellow-Mlnisters, of
very great extravagance in the actual ex-
penditures and Estimates tor the years 1807,
1808 and 18U0 ; and the hou. gentleman, as
the House will remember, based that state-
ment on tne fact that be bad succeeded,
as he stated, In reducing the expenditure tor
oonBolldated fund account to 987,000,000 lv)r
the year 18B6. Sir, If that reduction bad
been a genuine, bona fide reduction, if it bad
been one which the hon. gentleman .or his
friends beside him bad the timallest gtound
tor stating was a permanent reduction, I
would have given him credit for it, and I
would have felt that the present Oovemment
were called upon to enter Into a very minute
explanation of the causes which bad com-
pelled them to increase that sum. But when
we examine the facts, we find a very re-
able state of things. We find that in 1896,
when the bon. gentleman had no particular
reaaon for in any way taking action so as
to specially adjust his accounts, he expend-
ed f38,13'->,000. We find tnat for the suc-
ceeding year, 1897, In the first Estimate
brought dov7T by that hon. gentleman, and
I need not tell the House, for the matter
was explained to hon. members time and
again, that the hon. gentleman had actually
under consideration Supplementary Estimates
which would have Involved an additional
charge of several millions — we ttnd that the
hon. gentleman brought down In his first
and primary Estimate, charged under Con-
solidated Fund for the year 1897, no less
than 988,859,000. Under these circumstan-
ces, I am Justified in stating to the House
and stating to the country that the expendi-
ture of 1896 was purely illusive, that it was
not a genuine substantial reduction, but it
was, as I have already stated, a deliberate
case of cooking the accounts by causing
large amounts .vhlch belonged properly to
1896 to be transferred for political purposes
and made a ebar^e on the succeeding years,
notably In regard to two large items, mili-
tia and public works. The House will recol-
lect the hon. gbntteman stated that In 1897
we expended #1,400,000 more than he did
during the last year of b!s administration;
tVM In 1898, the present year, we propose
to expond $1,800,000 more than he expended
in his last year; that tor 189V we nropese to
expend $2,500,000 more than he expended in
1896. Sir, I pro|>o«6 to show to the Hovae

that the actual expenditure made by the Fi-
nance Minister for 1897 was somewhal: laM,
not much, than the first Estimate tor that
7«ar laid on the Table of the House by th«
bon. member tor York. I propose to show
the House that, deducting certain exoendi-
tures for which there Is no counterpart, the
expenditure of the present year would bar^-
ly equal the sum that he demanded lor the
services in 1807; and I further propose to
show the House that for the services of
1899, the Estimates of which we are now
discussing, the Finance Minister proposes for
the selfsame services tor which the hon.
member for York estimated ho would require
fJW, 859,000, to ask 137,060,000. The re-
mainder, as I will show to the House, is tor
services tor which we may expect to receive
a corresponding amount to put Into the pub-
lic treasury, and which had no counterpart
whatever In 1897. The way to Judge of the
comparative economy of the two Govern-
ments Is to Judge of the charges for the self-
same series of services. II the Government
have done wrong in askl/ig for the additional
amount, let them be Judged on these addi-
tional amounts and let the House tak" Jnto
accorunt the fact I have alluded to, l -JmIt,
that with respect to these additional sums
they have good grounds for believing the
country will receive a return.

I will take, in the first tastance, and after
that I propose to go through the items in
some little detail [ will take in the first in-
stance the demands made by l-v hon. friend
(Mr. Fielding) tor 1899, and t»ie demands
made by the hon. member for York (Mr. Fos-
ter) In 1897. The House will remember that
my hon. friend (Mr. Fielding) is now asking
for 189,126,000, In round numbers, for the
services of 1899. Ic that 139,125,000 are
included these three Items: First, for the
rental of the Intercolonial road into Mont-
real, 1210,000, for which no corresponding
sum whatever la to be found amongst the
charges for 1897 ; next, a sum of $896,000
tor the services of the Yukon district, for
which, I need not say, not one farthing is
to be found of a corresponding character In
the exjiendlture for 18fi7 as proposed by the
hon. member for York; lastly, tor the run-
ning expenses of th» Intercolonial Railway
as extendJ^d Into Montreal, a further sum of
$560,000 tcv which there Is no correspond-
ing entry, making a sum total of $1,166,000
tor which we expect to receive a return.

Sir CHARLES TUP PER. How much did
the hon. gentleman (Sir Richard Cartwrlght)--
say was for the extension of the Intercol-
onla? mto Montreal ?

The MINISTER OP TRADE AND COM-
MERCE. FJve hundred and sixty thousand
dollars «xtra is allowed (or the expenses of
that, including what is known na the BruBQ-
mond County Branch. Now it hon. g»ntle-
m«n opposita will do me the favour to d»-
daet $1,166,000 from 989,135.000 they will

•«e that after taking out these extra sami
there remains $37,959,000, being the sum re-
quired by my bon. friend (Mr. Fielding) for
the selfsame identical services for which the
hon. member tor York (Mr. Foster) asked
188,858,000 in 1896-97. Therefore, my
Lon. friend (Mr. Fielding) proposes to de-
fray the expenses of the country, so tar as
regards these services, tor $400,000 less than
the hon. member for York thought was ne-
cessary two years ago.

It is worth while remembering also thac
the country has not stood still 'during the
last two years, that the population has in-
creased very considerably, more rapidly,
than it did during the period the hon. mem-
ber tor York was administering the Govern-
ment. I believe, from all the evidence which
has come to our hands; from the evidence as
to the increased immigration; from the evi-
dence as to the diminished exodus, which I
regard as even of more Importance; I be-
lieve that the actual fact of the case is, that
tor the selfsame services, with 200,000 peo-
ple more In 1899 than in 1896-97, my hon.
friend (Mr. Fielding), Is asking for $400,000
a year less. I again call the attention of
the House to the fact that there is good rea-
son for believing that the whole, or at any
rate by far the greater part of that $1,166,-

000 of extra expenditure, will be repaid Into
the treasury of this country in the shape of
increased receipts from the Intercolonial
Railway, and in the shape of increased re-
ceipts which we are even now receiving
from the Yukon territory.

But, Sir, It is always well in these cases
to go a little Into detail. I have before me
the Estimates laid >n the Table of the
House by the hon. member for York' (Mr.
Foster) for 1896-97, and htre I may observe
that doubtloss owing to » clerical error the
hon. gentlemiin (Mr. Foster) omitted a fixed
charge of $50,000 for a certain mall service
under the heading of sums authorized by
statute. The actual amount he demanded
therefore was $38,858,000, and not $88,-
808,000 as is Inaccurately put down. If the
House will take the trouble to turn to the
Estimates tor 1899, and will compare them,
step by step, as far as may be with the
Estimates laid on the' Table by the boo.
gentleman (Mr. Foster) In 1896, they will
see how far he (Mr. Foster) is justified in as-
serting that our administration of the coun-
try is inferior in pAlnt of economy to the ad-
ministration which be was prepared to
give us had he been returned to oflSce In,
1896. Take the first Item In the Estimates,

1 find that the hon. the Minister of Fi-
nance asks for charge of public debt, 9n-
cludSng sinking ton)!, ft sum of $12,8:5.<),000:
and observe that our economicai ifieiiu iTom
York (Mr. Foster) two years ago, asked tor
that same service $12,982,000. being a diff*»r~
enc« of $180,000 on thai item In favour of
tb« present MlBlfftry. I obserre that on

charges ot management be asked for $165,-
000, and my hon. friend proposes to be con-
tent with $152,v.00. In the item ot civil
government — that much disputed item — we
ask for $1,418,000, and my hon. friend from
York (Mr. Foster), two years ago, thought
it was necessary to demand $1,449,000. I
note that in the administration of Justice
there is a small increase. Certain additional
Judges haYe been demanded hy the several
provinces, and the expense of the adminlstia^
tlon of Justice is therefore, not by any act ot
our own but by the act of theee legislatures.
Increased $14,000. The police service Is the
some in both years. Now I come to another
point, which will perhaps contrast, as well
as any other our relative economy. We de-
mand for the service of the penitentiaries
$417,000 lor the year ending July, 1899. The
hon. gentleman. In 1896-97, demanded $481,-

000 tor the some service. We demand tor
the services of the' legislatures $705,000, and

1 observe that the hon. gentleman seems to
have demanded $754,000. For arts, agricul-
ture and statistics — and to this item 1 call
the special attention of the House—we de-
mand a much larger sum than my hon. friend
did. We demajid $822,000, but with respect
to that item I have to say this. If the hon.
gentleman from York (Mr. Foster), or any
other of them, will choose to accept the
gage which I have thrown down, and will
choose to bold that the sums we are now
appropriating for cold storage and tor the
Development ot agricultural pursuits In varl-
o<us directions are ill spent and will vote to
reduce them, I shall be only too happy to un-
dertake a discussion ot that matter with
them at any moment. In that matter which
affects the well-being ot the greatest class in
the country, we are much more generous
than our predecessors, but nevertheless we
make savings In other repj-Pcts, which will
very much more than compf.nsate for that
increase. I obstrv^; that 'm the servi-ies of
the militia, the next lar^ kfitf.'.,. \ a demand
for 1899 $1,397,000. > u ? .i>« <;';d I am
not condemning him for It, L.at the hon.
gentleman in 1897 thoiight that $1,478,000
was the least that he could get along with,
which shows a considerable difference In
favour of the praaent Government, I observe
that on public works we demanr' $1,650,000,
and the late Government demanded $1,576,-
000, being an Increase on our part; and I
have no douht my hon. friend beside rae
(Mr. i^arte) will be perfectly able to give an
excellent explanation of the reasons which
require this vote. Now, a very large propor-
tion of tHe remainder consists of what are
known as fixed charges — charges for collec-
tion of revenue. I shall not weary the Housv
by going through those in detail, but I re-
\.'^<:it this fact, that for the identical class of
services for which we ask a little less than
$38,000,000, the hon. gentleman thought it
necessary, three years ago, on a population
of nesriy oae-<itiarter ot a ailKtott lees, to d»-

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mand tor ^bing like 188,859,000 Under
those cii iStances, It hardly becomes the
hon. gentleman to speak too highly of the
economies which he effected. Had these econo-
mies been effected by any geniulne rediuctLon
in the expenditure, I would give him credit
for thsm, but when we come to examine amd
see that they were effected by such means
as refusing to drill our militia during an en-
tire year, and by such other expedients as
reducing the expenditure of public works to
a sum f 400, 000 below what the hon. gentle-
man himself expended during the preceding
fire or six years, and generally in such a
fashion as compelled the present Minister of
Public Woiks, the moment be came into
ofiice, in order to avert great pubH6 injury,
to expensive and costly public works, to in-'
cur large additional expense, I do nubmlt
that there is no just cause whatever for the
claim of the hon. gentleman, that because,
under such circumstances, he did force the
reduction to $37,000,000 in 1896, be is
theref%e entitled to claim that he and his
Government had really reduced tli> expendi-
ture to that point. They are to be Judged by
thMin* tactual eocpemdiituire im a yeifur whm ithej
bad no temptation to curtail the expendi-
ture Improperly ; they are to be Judged by
the estimates they themselves brought down
for the service of 1896-97. I turn now from
that to another important portion of the
hon. gentleman's speech, ^nd here I confess
I was ra/ther dlsckppoinited at the mode in
which he handled the subject. He took a
very great deal of exception to the reduc-
tion made by my hon. friend beside me in
the rate of Inteoreet payable on Gk>veirinimen!t
savlifj^ bank deposits. That is a question
on which there is a very considerable deal to
be said on both sides, and I hoped that a
man of his experience and occupying his po-
sition, and who himself had occasion to re-
duce the interest on savings bank deposits,
would have put the House In full possession
of the actual ritate of the case, and have
given something like a fair resume of the
true position and of the causes which oper-
ated In inducing my hon. friend to make this
somewhat large reduction in the rate of in-
terest. The hon. gentleman spent a great
deal of time In denouncing the' Government
because, as he said, we were reducing the
rate at the expense of the small savers. He
must have had in his possession or have had
access to certain facts respecting the savings
banks, which. I myself caused to be
brought down in a return to this House,
some three or four years ago, and I may say
here that the facts to-day are substantially
as they Were then, or. If anything, rather
bear out our pretension more to-day than
they did then. To listen to the hon. gentle-
man one would suppose that the whole f50,~
000,000 now Invested in the Government
savtnga banks were held by small saveini,.
poor people to whom It is a matter of very
great moment indeed that they should re-

ceive a nuall additional return; aod the hon.
gentleman waxed warm and eloqoeut In de-
picting the injury to the cause of thrift
which would be Inflicted If we disturbed the
rate of Interest. It may be interesting to
the House to know that at present, of those
f50,000,000 on deposit In the Government
savings banks, something like two-thirds of
the whole are held by rather less than 'one-
sixth of the depositors. It may be Interest-
ing to the House to know that In 1894
something like f 25, 300, 000 of the then de-
posits, which amounted to about forty mill-
ion dollars were held by *J6,000 depositors,
being as nearly as may be an average of one
thousand dollars per head. Mow, I do not
think that men who are able, on an average,
to deposit a thousand dollars per head, can
be regarded as people deserving the paternal
care of this Government. For the smaller
depositors a great deal more may be said,
but the smaller depositors at that time aver-
aged something like flOO apiece, and no
more. The larger depositors, as I have
stated, those of f500 and upwards, had an
average of f 1,000; the smaller depositors
had an average of very little over f 100. I
have no doubt that, if it were possible tor
my hon. friend to have done so, he would
have been very glad Indeed, to have divided
this matter, and very glad indeed to have
so aoTianged It thart;^ the small diepioeltans, if
possible, should Bave received a larger in-
dulgence at the hands oi the Government
than he thought was fairly due to the per-
sons who held the greater part of these
deposits. But here again I have a little to
complain of with regard to the hon. member
for York. As a Finance Minister of some
years' standing, he knew perfectly ■y^ell when
he staited that we were paying 2% per ceuit
to money-lenders In Europe and only 2'Vi to
the depositors of this country, and conse-
quently that the depositors were docked %
of 1 per cent., that he omitted the material
fact that the people of Canada have to con-
trlbufe a considerable additional sum for the
management of those savings banks. It Is
not the truth to sfty that we went out of otir
way to give 2% per cent, to English monegr-
lenders, all expenses paid, while we reduced
the rate to these people to 2% per cent., be-
cause, as a matter of fact, the actual cost of
management, raises the cost to us of the
money wo borrow of these people to 2%, at
any rate to 2% per cent.; But there are other
considerations which the hon. gentleman I
think should. In all Justice, have preisented to
the House In considering this disputed q\xw~
tlon. I think he ought to have told the
House, what Is obvious to every man of ex-
perience, that you cannot fairly compare the
rate of interest which is obtained by parties
who are ontitied to withdraw their money
at an hour's notice, or a few days' notice,
with the rate of interest obtainable on loans
having » period of years to run. Which of
UB, as a business man, would, if he were a

5Baa

buslnegfl man, pay the game interest on a
sum withdrawable at call as for money
wbich was allowed to remain In his hands
tor fifty years ? That is a point, I think,
that the hon. gentleman ought to have con-
sidered well before he chose to make use of
his position to stir up the minds of the peo-
ple against the Government for a policy
which, as I shall presently show, is likely to
result in advantage to a large part of the
community. More than that, the hon. gen-
tleman knows perfectly well, and If he does
not, there is no banker of standing but
could have explained the matter to him, that
in the last resort, the rate of interest all
through this country depended upon the in-
terest paid by the banks and the Government
tor money on call. That is so plain a pro-
position that I am astonished that the hon.
gentleinan should have overlooked it. What
follows ? Why, this follows — tnat if you de-
sire to see the interest on the farmers' mort-
gages lowered, if you wish to see the inter-
est on money usr'' for manufactures and by
others engaged i." variou^ enterprises
for the development of this country low-
ered, you must consent to a lowering
of the rate of interest on deposits.
Unfortunately, tied up as we are, in-
volved as our affairs are, it is not pos-
sible for the banks which control the larger
part of the deposiis in Canada, to reduce
the rate of interest on their deposits
unless the Government will do so loo.
I point that out to show tUot tliore
is more than one side to this question.
Every man here knows from his own
experience that the r-tto of interest
on good security has fallen extremely in Can-
ada within the last ten or twelve years. It
is only a few months ago that It was my
duty to make inquiries, on behalf of certain
parties for whom I am trustee, of certain
triurte societies in Toronto to know what
rates of interest they would guarantee, and
all I could obtain was a statement that if
the money was left in their hands for a term
of years, they would guarantee 4 per cent. 1
need not tell this House that municipal cor-
porations and almost all corporations of
go<Kl' stBoding, are able to borrow money in
the markets of the world, at considerably
less than 4 per cent. — from 8 to 3% per
cent. I desire to point out that, while we
wish, as far as we can, to encourage thrift,
as th« hon. gentleman said, to protect the
Interests or the (smaller depositors, we ar«
called upon to consider the Interests of all
classes, to consider the interests of the farm-
er, to consider the interests of those who are
carrying on industrial enterprises in our
midst. More than that, 1 say my hon.
friend beside me would have been false to
his tmtt to the people of Canada as a
whole if he had consented to pay a small
portion of them, except for extremely good
cdu^et more than thn average rate of 1»-
tereaf at which money was borrowed by

the Government in the open market. I
put It, under all these circumstances, whe-
ther any man could say that money on call,
which could be taken out of the control of
the Government on very short notice, is
worth more than it costs the Government,
that Is, something like 2% per cent. And I
think those who know the difficulty of find-
ing good investments, those who look at the
rate paid on stocks by banks in good standi
ing and similar classes of investments, will
admit that even if the reduction to 2% per
cent, does appear and be, so far as a certain
small section of the taxpayers are concerned,
a measure attended with some hardships —
and I do not ddny that It may opoear or be
HO — they must g^rant that the ( ivernment
had a duty to consAder, and I think they will
admit that there is a great deal to be said
lor the policy adopted by my hon. friend,
first, of saving a very large sum of money to
the country at large, which, as the hon.
member for York truly said, must otherwise
be made up by increased taxation, md, sec-
ond, taking a course which probably, in the
long run and not at a very distant day, may
contribute largely to reduce the rate of inter-
ests on mortgages and in all probability
raise the price of farm land. I may add that
I do not think it was a good sign of progress
in Canada to see what 1 and others have
witnessed — farms by the score put up at auc-
tion In country towns where, to my know-
ledge, a million and more of money was ly-
ing on deposit, without obtaining a Wd. I
do not think we shall see that again as often
as In the past, at least I hope not. I hope
that, under these circumstances, all, fair-
minded men will agree that, even if my hon.
friend was forced by tho exigencies of his po-
sition to reduce this rate somewhat faster
than he would have liked to have done, he
had ground In the general interest tor pur-
suing the ground he took. Now, I might
add to that this consideration, whlcli I
think Is worthy of a little attention on the
part of the House. I do not deny, I have
never denied, that It would be a matter of
very great moment, of very great Interest,
and worthy of some sacrfflce, If the people of
Canndi could be induced to Invest in Govern-
ment securities permanently. If these fifty
millions had been invested In a Canada 8
per cent, loan, I do not know that that
would have bewi llgbtly disturbed by my
hon. friend. If It had been Invested In such
a way that the money would not have hem
called upon at short notice, but invested toi
a term of yeamB, shorter ot loing«ir, tbam
WiOTild be a good deal to be said In favour of
the argument of ray hon. friend from York.
But ihes-e is a wide distinction betwMn bor-
rowing money, as we are doing on call,
which may be demanded from us at short
notice, and borrowing money for terms of
years, which Is the b^t way that a Govern-
ment can possibly borrow it.
That Is a matter which might be rery

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fairly brought up for debate. I offer no
opinion upon it, one way or another. But 'I
do call attention to the fact that it Is, by no
means, of equal importance or Interest to a
community that It should be a borrower to a
large amioiimt from th« people at call, as that
it should have a large amount of the people's
money Invested In the permanent securities
of the nation, ^ow, I obserye that another
charge brought by the hon. gentleman was,
that we had absolutely and actually gained,
I think he said f 1,200,000 more customs,
and that we had done it under a reduced
scale of taxation. I believe, Sir, that state-
ment is true. I acknowledge the impeach-
ment, I am proud of th» crime, if crime it be,
that we are getting more money, and we aw
getting it on a reduced scale of taxation.
That Is just exactly what we wanted to do.
But I differ with my hon. friend on one
point that he alluded to. He was pleased to
declare that there was very little difference
between the percentage on dutiable goods
nowadays ana the percentage on dutiable
goods In former times, aad he was good
enough, 1 remember, to call attention to the
fact that, during the year 1896-97, when, aa
he truly said, his own tariff system was in
full ewlng — and on that I will have a word
or two to say presently — there had not been
any very appreciable reduction. I have here
a statement of our principal dutiable Imports
entered for consumption during the first
seven months of this year, and I call atteii-
tion to the results. In the year 1897, which
the hon. gentleman justly claims as his own,
we appear to have Imported 186,800,000
worth of dutiable goods, upon which we re-
ceived ?11,181,000. Apparently, the percent-
age on that amount, making the calculation
roughly, amounts to something like 30.05.
Now, for the flret seven months of this year
we appear to have received $40,438,000 of
dutiable goods, and we obtained for thom
fll,932,000 duty. Well, £lr, on this »11,-
932,000 the percentage would appear to be
29.50. There la, therefore, quite an appre-
ciable reduction In the rate of duty which
now prevails under our present tariff — not
nearly as much as I could desire to see, but
I may remind the House that a good many
goods which were absolutely prohibit»jd un-
der the late tariff, are now being Imported
under rates prescribed by us, that go to
swell our revenoQ,^ whereas,^ In former tlm®s,
they were excluded altogether. That Is one
thing, I may remark Incidentally, which ren-
dors these calculations of percentages rather
apt to be misleading, when you are compar-
ing a tariff framed In the main for revenue
With a tariff In the main protective. If you
exclude the goods altogether, thwe is no
<lo«fet you get a diminished apparent perc ant-
age, but at an enormouc cost to the consum-
er. I would remind the House that the hon.
gentlemen olaim the lull merit of the year
1806-97 as being the year In which their

policy culminated and bore its full Irultu.

Now, I would like to call the attention of
the House particularly to a number of the
results of the policy of those bon. gentle-
men from the year 1887 down to the present
time. Sir, hon. gentlemen will recollect that
our friends on the opposite side, In former
times, had a monopoly of all the loyalty In
this country.

Mr. TAYLOR. We have not got It all now.

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COM-
MERCE. No, I think not. Well, Sir, these
ultra-loyalists In 1887 Imported something
like 45 million dollars worth of goods from
Great Britain ; In 1888 they fell to 39 mil-
lions ; In 1889 they rose to 42 mlllloms ; in
1890 they Imported 43 millions ; In 1891,

42 millions ; In 1892, 41 millions ; In 1898,

43 millions ; In 1894, 39 millions ; In 1896,
81 millions ; In 1896, they Imported 82 mil-
lions, and In the year in which, according to
the Bon. member for York, their policy had
attained Its full and perfect maturity, they
Imported 29 million dollars worth of goods
from Great Britain. Now, In those ten
yearns, you will observe, their Imponts Ircwtt
Great Britain had diminished by 15 million
dollars. In that Interval, although the popu-
lation 'Increased far more slowly than we
could desire, we had added, in all probabil-
ity, St least 500,000 to our popul^lon. So
It follows that In ten years, such was the
excellent effects of their policy that our im-
ports from Great Britain in 1897 wen© li>
millions less than In 1887 on a population
half a million smaller. But we made up fwp it
in another direction, for I see that In 1887
they Imported 45 mUUon dollars ^orth ol
goods from the UnUwl States ; In 1888 they
Imported 49 miOIona ; In 1890, 50 millions ;
In 1891, 52 millions ; In 1898, 58 mllUona ;
In 1894, 58 millions ; In 1895, 54 millions ;
In 1896, 58 millions, and In 1897 they to-
pointed 61 million dollars worth. While
they diminished their Imports from Great
Britain by 15 million dollars, they Increased
their Imports from the United States by IS
millions in the same period of time. Now,
It may be true, that the steps which have
been taken to Increase our trade with Great
Britain may not have as swift an effect as
we desire ; still, there are reasons for it.
During the period of eighteen years In which
these hon. gentlemen have worked their
wicked win, th^ have reduced our lmp<+Ft«
from Great Britain to the ftgures that I have
read to the House, and we cannot be expect-
ed to rerers* all that In an afternoon ; but 1
have very little doubt that, when the next
decade occurs, and when my hon. frlend« \m
this side — where I have no doubt they wtll
^111 be — ^have the pleasure of dllatlBg on
those figures to an a,tt©ntlv9 House, they will
be able to show that the current of trade
has been reversed, and that they will then
be Importing a very much larger quaittlty of
goods from Great Brltal>. than ever before.
Now, I know that percentages ir* odious, I

^ I ■ I..IIII iMIil— wawM

know they are very often unfair, and we
taave had experience of that time and again.
But I will Just call the attention of those
economists to two or three patent facts
pretty well known in history. The Liberal-
Uonse^vatlTe econcHnists became the custo-
dians of the affairs of this country in 1867.
In 187S, for reasons which I will not now
stop to particularize, they were obliged to
devote their talents to some other occupa-
tion. In the Interval, however, thay had
added 11 million dollars a year to the an-
nual expenditure of Canada. In 1873, Mr.
Mackenzie assumed the rdins of power, and in
1878 Mr. Mackenzie laid them down. He
entered office with an expenditure of f28,-
318,000, and he left It with an »jxpenditure
of *28,519,000 or a difference of $200,000.
Those hon. gentlemen during eighteen years
exercised their own will and pleasure. They
began with an expenditure of $28,500,000,
and left off, as 1 have shown, with an esti-
mated expe.iditure of $38,500,000, an actual
expenditure in 1895 of $38,183,000. I can-
not accept their statement for 1896, for the
obvious reason I have given. But, Sir, it
follows that the increased expenditure in
those eighteen years amounted, giving them
the most liberal construction possible, to
close on $14,000,000. Now, $14,000,000
would represent interest on the sum of
$560,000,000, and this may be taken as the
sum their administration during eighteen
years has cost the country, estimating It by
a reasonable and fair standard. I will not
insist, however, too much on that point, be-
cause there are some little reductions that
might be made, but nevertheless substanti-
ally it Is correct.

The hon. grentleman entered on another
subject as to which I desire to say a word
or two, though I do not wish to weary the
House by enlarging too much on matters
Alr^ndy pretty well thrashed out and which
no doubt my hon. friends beside me will
take up In more detail. The hon. member
Jor York enlarged extremely on the fact,
that acting In conformity with the conclu-
sion arrived at by the British Government,
we were obliged to abandon our original
and more liberal treatment of nations that
extended liberal terms to us. I may be a
heretic and very unorthodox, but I have to
say, that I do not regard thd opinion of the
British law bfficfera as conclusive. They have
the power, I admit, and they are able to en-
force their views, and to decide what the
favoured-nation clause shall mean ; but I
hold that the opinion of the British law
officers JOs vastly different from an opinion
givem by a Brltteh en^r't o, Igftj diegree. T)i«y
are the advisers of the OuvemmPTit, and
th«y advlflft the Government substaniially on
th* Ikie of the Qovwornmeint's policy. It may
be very true that ft is not on the whole In-
consistent with the policy of Her Majesty's
Oovemment to stand by the mo«t-fAvoured-

natlon clause, for very obvious reasons; but
J. am far from being convinced, and it will
require much better argfuments than I have
heard on that side or I have read In any
of tihe despatohes trom Hetr Majcterty's Gov-
ernmeaT given by the Imperial officers that
we are not right in maintaining, as I main-
tain; Ihat a reciprocity treaty has nothing
whatever to do with the most-favoured-na-
tion cl'iuse. A reciprocity treaty is In the
nature of a bargain between two nations,
under wblch we give and obtain substantial
considerations ; while I maintain that the
favoured-nation clause, rightly and properly
construed, means that nations having the
right to the favoured-nation clause should
grant similar terms to those nations from
which they expect to obtain special privi-
leges. That is the new world contention as
opposed to the old world contention, and I
am not in the least degn*ee disposed to aban-
doin it, holding it as being the more logical,
equitable and fair construction. We are not,
however, an Independent nation, but are de-
pendent on the British ESnpIre, and bound
therefore In matters of this kind to obey the
directions we receive from the home authori-
ties ; and when they tell us that for reasons
of state and for reasons of policy they are
obliged to maintain this particular construc-
tion as to the most-favoured-natlon clause,
we have no alternative but to obey them and
abandon otir better and more generous con-
tention and accept the system as we now
have it. But it was a very strong testimony
to the substantial soundness of our view
that while the British Government Insisted,
as I have said, for good reasons of state
policy to their own particular construction
a^ to the favoared-natlon clause, they at the
same time did for the present Government
what they had entirely declined to do on
various occasions for previous governments
—they denounced the German aud Belgian
treaties which prevaii'ed oi^* exicndlng a
preference to British dominions. I say
that that, rightly understood, was not
only in itself a great and positive gain, but
it was recognizing in such a manner as had
not hitherto been recognized, the weight
and importance which Canada has now at-
tained in the councils of tJie Empire.

Sir," the hon. member for York, and I re-
grret he is not able to be here to-night, was
good enough to twit us with having turned
our cheek to the United States and getting
nothing for it. I have not In the allghteet
degree changed my opinion as to the enor-
mous value and ImpoK-ance to both coun-
tries of extended trade relations with the
United States, and 1 shall require very mnch
beittea- rtbtmma ti hao I have hitherto hjeiard
to Indue* me to abandon my position In thAt
»^ard. But it takes two to make a bar-
gain, and when the United gtates did not
see fit to trade with "■?, ft became our busi-
ness ^o do the best could for ourselves

bu;

and eatend our 'tonade wttfa the miotbar conm-
try and In otber directions. That w« hare
done, and If our action, as the hoa. gentle-
man stated, Is to be construed as turning
the other cheek to the smiter, >t is a ne#
translation of the text to which the hon.
flpentlemian referred. When the United States
would not trade with us, we showed that
country that while not disposed to retaliate
on them in any way or to Injure ourselves
in order to inflict small injury on some por-
tion of* their population, at the same time
we were meksters of our destiny ; that the
gates were ours to open and to close; that
we open them to the country that deals lib-
erally with us and keep them .closed to the
country which refuses to trade with nn,
which Is goo^ oolicy, good business and good
common sense. Wbat the hon. gentleman
may have meant by his allusion to those po-
litical methods which he imputed to my hon.
friend beside me, to that malignant and
malevolent action of holding all manufactur-
ers in subjection, I do not know. He pro-
bably Is better acquainted with the effective
use of the poiftlcal methods he alluded to for
political purposes than we can pretend to be.
We are his disciples in that matter, and we
should be glad to receive from him or the
hon. gentleman opposite (Sir CharleT Tup-
per) any useful instruction he may choose to
communicate, for no doubt those hon. gen-
tlemen are perfectly well versed in the art of
applying those political methods to recalci-
trant manufacturers under particular circum-
atcmces.s

With respect to the general accusation
brought by the hon. member for Vork, that
the QoT^mment have not been able to eco-
nomise to the extent they desired, and
that certain of the hopes and expectations
Which weire enteontaimed by certain ot my
colleagues as to the extent f)f the saving
that could be made, have not been verified,
I have to say, so fair t j those hon. geoftteni«n
are concerned, It practically amounts to this,
that they have succeeded, In doing a great
deal more mischief and doing it more per-
manently than we had supposed possible. It
is not so easy to undo the evil effects of their
administration as some of my more sanguine
friends would suppose. I call attention to
the fact, that in all the attacks I made on
hon. gentlemen opposite when I was on the
Opposition benches, I was careful, knowing
there wer« serious difllcultles In the way,
while I pointed out that we had an annual
expenditure which I thought excessive and
disproportionate to our resources, my chief
burden of complaint was that the tlienrt Gov-
ernment had increased the permanent cfaai^res
out of proportion to the revemie and it
would be exceedingly difficult . to re-
charges. I am in the judgment of the House,
as my hon. friend opposite wouM say, as to
whether that wwi not on all occasions the
burden of my attacks. It la my opinion
still. The amount pf our capital and fixed

charges Is enormously ont of proportion to
our Income. If hon. gentleman wlirgo care-
fully over the present list of expenditures
they will see that, after deducting fixed
charges, which are wholly and entirely apart
from collection of revenue and which
amounts to a sum not far short of $20,000,-
000 a ymx In the items authorized by the
statute, the amount left to cut and carve
upo^ is exceedingly small. Deducting fl9,-
000,000 and adding 111,000,000 required for
post office, railways, Inland revenue and cus-
toms and other matters, over which the Gov-
ernment has extremely little prtictlcal con-
trol from the nature of the case, deducting
these sums from a total amount of $38,000,-
000 it will be found tliat there are not more
than $7,000,000 or $8,000,000 in the form
of expenditures under direct control of the
Government, and no Inconsiderable portion
of this is devoted to expenditure for Indians,
which la In the nature of treaty obligations,
alttough mot granted by statute. While not
desiring to palliate any extravagance, if ex-
travagance is committed, or withdrawing
from the statement I have made that the
amount of expemdlture Is very lai^ In a
country like ours, 1 point that out, not at
all desiring to palliate any extravagance, if
extravagance has been coiiiimitted; not as at
all withdirawlng from the etatememt I have
often medie, that tihe amoiunt of expemddture
is very heavy for a country like oursTHbut as
pointing out that the great fanlt which the
people of Canada are entitled to complain of
is, that pemnainieinft dhairges to eiuch am emor^
mous extent as I have indicated were inflict-
ed upon them. These charges were not In-
flicted by the Liberate; they were inflicted
against our advice and against our protest,
and ft Is not fair to saor at this moment,
that if on coming into ofilce we found It more
dlflScnlt to reduce these than we had sup-
posed, therefore, we are to be held respon-
sible — unless hon. gentlemen can show that
the items which we are now demanding are
excessive in amount. It does not He in the
moutii of hon. gentlemen opposite to make
that charge, for as I have shown, we are
actually asking less for the present services
of the country with a considerably Increased
population, than they themselves proposed
to ask two years ago. The hon. gentleman
(Mr. Foster) was good enough to lay claim
to all the results of the year 1896-97 as pro-
l>er!y belonging to tfte policy of- the late Con-
servative Government; and amongst otber
things he claimed that there had been .an la-
crease of $17,000,000 In our exports, the
credit of which was due to the policy of the
Llboral-Conaervatlve party. Well, be ft so for
argwroent's sake. I find that in the first six
months of this current year— to which be
(Mr. Foster) will hardly ventwre to make
claim-— in the first six months which ended
on the Slst of December, 1897, I find that
we exported of home products a eum totial of
ninety milliom add, being an increase of

IS"

i
■1

'i
i

1 ■

j '

i /

f36,000,000 over the exports o! 18»«. Al-
though I do not preitextd to say that that la
wholly and entirely due to the feeling of cun-
fidence, and the general teeling of rest and
stability which has ensued on the e^pulalou
of hon. gentleman opposite from power and
the in«tallntlon of the present Miwletry; It is
at least good evidence that during our term
o( office the increase in the wealth o< the
people of Canada, which this evidences, hae
gone '^" far faster than it did before. The
House will do well to recollect that there
are new eoui-ces of wealth opening before us;
the House wf.ll do well to recollect that there
is every rep.aon to believe that our popula-
tion is decidedly on the increase, and that
in a very considerable number of industries
which in former times we did not reckon up-
on much — in all those connected with mines
and minerals; in the wonderful developm«nt
which appears likely to await the pulp and
paper industry and in several others wholly
apart from our staple agricultural indus-
tries, there is Buct promise of increased pros-
perity and permanence, that we h^ve tali
reason to believe that this extraordinary de-
velopment is not likely to be merely ephe-
meral Out will remain for a number of yeiars.
It is plain that Canada is entering on a new
era of prosperity^ and outside of hoc. gen-
tlemen opposite very few Indeed will l^e
found to question that the political position
of OajnadA has liklaiwlse improved eauwrnouB-
ly. Sir, we have shown that while the Lib-
eral party weire nort as focxd of talking kxyal-
ty as tion. geotlemeo opposite used to be; we
have BJQown now Liberal acts can outweight
Conservative promises an* professions a
thousand tithes over. We have set an ex-
ample to the Empire^ and if we have not
done It in a huxterhig spirit, if we have not
endeavoured to obtain pound for pound amd
cent for cent, we have at any rate shown
that When we were generously treated, we
were willing to the best of our ability to
treat our mother country generously In re-
turn.

I grant lUait we have not done all that
some of US had noped to do. It kf not
poeslbl* — the luan. gemtlcmaia (Mr. FVwtlHP)
to the contrary notwithstanding— ^to undo
In one single year, or ev«n in two years, all
that the Conservatives succeeded In doing
during a period of eighteen years. If in a
eorrespondlng period we bare no better re-
cord to show than they, I would be willing
for one to submit to the severest censure
and punishment which can be Inflicted upon
as, though probably by that time, it will not
much concera either myself or my bon.
frtemd (Sir OhnrieS Tapper) opposite. The
truth is that we have found ourselves la the
no«ltfnTi of being helm to a deeply raortjraffed
estate. There are two ways In which "we
can g&i out of that awkward pnaitloti. We
can reduce the rate of Interetrt, and we ar&
doing it In wpltft of th* remonstrance of

hoii. gentlemen opposite, or we can do the
other thing; we can improve and develop
the productiveness of our estate. We can
< — and I think we will be able to in a short
period of tlm»— we can Increase the popu-
lation of Canada to such an extent that the
same results will be attained as if we had
been able to cut down the expenditure by
even as many millions as we had hoped in
our fondieert expeotetloius. We may not be
able to reduce the expenses of the service,
but we can get a bertter service. In all
these ways we c^n increase and Improve
the efficiency of the Grovernmeot of Canada.
This we desire to do; this we hope to do.
I think. Sir, that In that way. In all pro-
bability the real safety and the real advan-
tage which Canada is likely to derive from
the preoent period of prosperity is likely to
remain with us. I cannot' foi^ear saying
one thing — and I think I am Justified in
saying It — t verily believe that if, eighteen
years ago the people of Canada had been
content to go on under the reasonable re-
venue tariff they then enjoyed, the manufac-
turers of Canada as a whole for wboete bene-
fit these enormous additional taxes were Im-
posed, would have been infinitely better off
than they are to-day. Their progress I be-
lieve would have been aa great; I am certain
it would have been Infinitely sollder and
more permanent, and it would not have been
attended with the disadvantagee and Incon-
veniences which have flowed from tno sys-
tem then adopted. I do not want to dwell
upon these themes too long, 'but I do say —
and I think I would obtain a pretty univer-
sal verdict from these gentlemen when I say
It— that on the whole and all things consid-
ered a very grrave error was committed when
Canada tunied her back on the well-known
flscal policy of Great Britain and took up
with a system of protection, which was af-
ter all but th castt-off rags of Amerloanlsm.
It may be ♦' ai w* havn been to blame In
some respectj; It m-ay be that we have not
been able to live wa In all respects to the ex-
pectations our frfdnds formed, but I repeat
that if It can be (*«^wn that in the Estimates
,we ewbOilt there is any undue eitravagance,
any undue expenditure that cannot be rea-
son«ibly defended, we will not be afraid or
ashamed to retrace our steps If good cause
be shown. But I do protest that It is not
right or fair or reasonable for gentlemen op-
posite, who laid burdens upon us which we
are now endeavouring to liquidate, to com-
plain of our course. With respect to the
charge that we hare Increased the capital ac-
count, I may say that with one excfiptlMi
all the Increased charges on capital accmmt
have accrued from oblf^rations contractec by
the late Govrmment. All we have done has
been as businesH men to hurry forward such
enterprises as the completion of the canals,
bt ord<er that th«y mlgflut become within tJie
lifetime of the present generation of some lit-
tle use to the people of Canada. The chief

itemi of expenditure wlhicli the hon. gentle-
man coouplalns of, I am quite willing to
stand by, and abide the judgment of the peo-
ple of Canada. But I may remind the House
of one fact, which they very well know, that
during la«t seacilon, when we were propos-
ing the policy of giving a large subsidy to
the OanadHan Pacific Bailway for the co^n-
Btructlon of the Crow's Nest Pass Railway,
there was no man in this House who was so
anxious as the hon. member for York — un-
less perhaps It was his hom. friend beside
him (Sir Charles Tupper) — that that mea-
sure Rhould be brought forward and pushed
through with all speed. If I 'rwnember
rightly, the hon. gentleman approved of that
measure, urged It, did not divide the House
upon it, or voite agiainat it Im any way; aod
now, after having urged and approved of
and agreed to It as a necessary mfjasure, he
turns round and reproaches us with broken
promises and violated pledgee, bemuse we
did the very thing he urged us to do. Sir,
there should be some little reasonable faip-

piay in abxme maibtera. I do not objemb, ft
would ill become me to abject to any
amouittt of crliticlam which hoin. gentlemeHi
opposite ploase to level against u». I am
an old parliamentarian, and I am aware
that Providence can temper the wind to the
shorn lamb; amd I am likewise aware that
official hides acquire an extraordinary tough-
ness and thickness under the strokes that
come, aomeit'tmes from euppoirtars and some-
times from opponents; — I say I do not ob-
ject to any amount of criticism; but hon. gen-
tlemen of their standing and ability, know-
ing the weight which properly belongs to
their words, should be a little fair and rea-
sonable, and not endeavour as the hon. mem-
ber for York did, to argue on totally false
piremlae^, and to etndeavoiur to bind us down
by comparisons which do not fairly apply
to the condiitioaie of things aa thJey eoclst to-
day. I thraiik the House for tlie extrrane
couiitesy with which they hav« listened to
me, and, as I promised not to be unduly
long on this occasion, I now take my seat.

HON. WILLIAM PATERSON, M. P.

MINISTER OF CUSTOMS

OTTAWA, laRD APRIL, 1898.

WAYS AND MEANS — THE BUDGET.

Tbe House reflumed adjourned debate on
the proposed motion o( Mr. FleMlng, that
Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, for the
House to go Into Committee to consider the
Wacfs end Meatus tar raUding a Supply to be
granted to Her Majesty.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS (Mr. Pater-
son). In rising to reply to some ot the state-
ments made by the hon. leader of the Oppo-
sition last night, I desire, at the outset of
my remarks, tx) heartily congratulate my
hon. friend upon being able to be in bis place
in the House to-day after his great physical
effort of last nlghrt. I am sure thait I simply
echo the sentiments of every member ot this
House, when I say that we rejoice to see the
great vigour which the hon. gentleman dis-
plays, amd to have this convincing evidence
of the excellent oondltton of his health. I
had feared, after tbe exh^iustive effort he
made last night, that, perhaps, when
he reached "his home amd potMlered over the
rather harsh, and, I m«iy be permitted to say,
incorrect statements he made In his lengthy
criticism, hils night's rest might have been
disturbed, and physical weariness, combined
with uneasiness of mtad and ooneclence,
might have prwvented bis being with us to-
day. I am very glad, however, to see Mm
here, and shall all the more wllii^ngly endea-
vour to show the Ballacy ol many of the erga-
ments amd the Incorrectnese of many of the
•tat«ment« he made use of. I shall not, how-
ever, take up the time ot the House with any
refdrence to his crtticlsm of the speech of my
bom. colleague the Minister of Trade land
Commerce (Sir Richard Cartwrtght) on the
tloamces of the country. That statement was
•o clear, so fair, so satisfactory, that the
House cannot have been surprised at the fail-
ure of the hon. leader oft the Opposition to
weaken It In any rewpect. I would h«ve been
griart had «ja'h«ialth of the ex-MiudRter of Ff-
oanco (Mr. Foster) permitted him to have
been present while that speech was being
made, for I am oonfldent he would have been
forced to axtoilt that it was an eminently telr

and convincing reply to his attack on the fl-
nanclal record of the present Administration,
I think'he would have been forced to admit,
as every one must be in candour, that if we
compare the expenditure of one Government
with that of aniorther, the fair way to make
a comparison is to take up the various items
of expenditure under their uifferent head^,
and contrast these with each other, and not
take the total expenditure in one lump sum,
as the hon. gentleman did. Tbe hon. gentle-
man knows that there is over one million dol-
lars of expenditure for new purposes which
this Government had to incur, and which the
former Government never had to provide for
at all.

Th&t was the line upon which the Minister
of Trade and Commerce proceeded, and I
tiilnk he made it abundantly evidemt, even
to the gentlemen of tbe Opposition, that the
criticism that was levelled against tbe able
speech ot the hon. the Minister of Finance,
was weak and was not really a fair state-
ment. I dwell no longer upon that.

I proceed next to notice a statement that
the hodj/. gentleman, madle tOtuait it was by an
accident of an accident that the Liberal
party are in power. I do not know what
he means by that exactly. But if it were
by an accident that the Liberal party at-
tained power, then I am bound to say that
every manifestation we have witnessed
throughout the country, shows the verdict
of the people to be that it was a very lucky
accident, tor they have but strengthened
tbe Government from that day to this. Then
we were told, and I thougiht it rather a mar-
vellous statement, that if success attended
the efforts ot the Liberal Government in
leglslati<m they were In a different position
from that ot the late Government, because,
he said, when the hon. gentlemen now on
the Treasury benches were in Opposition,
they opposed the late Government amd ob-
jected to its measures, while now the Oppo-
sition are lending their help and their aid
to the Government in order to develop this
couatry and promote Its prosperity. Well,

int that
IS by am
Liberal
)W what
It were
rty at-
ray that
iritnessed
verdict
iry lucky
ngthened
[g. Then
jr a mar-
attended
nment In
position
because,
now on
position,
and oh-

Well,

it is true that gantlemen now on tb« Oot-
enammt side, when in Opposition, did ob-
ject to the actions of the then OoTernment,
but it was to acttoDfl ihey oA)Ject«d, and
they gave reasons for their objections. But
when hon. gentlemen opposite cla^m that:
they are assisting gentlemen on this side
of the House to promote the prosperity of
Canada, to help her onward and forward, I
ask blm wbat means are th^y taking to do
It ? Is it by attributing coirupt metlTes to
the men who sit in the Ministry and lead
the Liberal party to-day, inslnuatlnij; charges
against members 6f that OoTemment that
they have not the courage to formulate,
trying to weaken the influence of that Gov-
einment in the country by base and coward-
ly insinuations when no one has dared to
prefer a charge ? Is that the help the Op-
position are giving to the present Govern-
ment in order to cairy on the affairs of the
coum/try ? Ah, but the hon. gentleman points
to an instance of it, and says it was a case
of black lhgr» .titude f ot- the illnlster of Trade
and Com'Tiwje to have mentioned it, name-
ly, that he had supported the Govamment In
their Crow's Nest Pass Railway policy last
year. What is he afraid of in that respect ?
He asked the question : Why did I do it ?
Well, I shall not attempt to give the answer,
but I couM not help thinking at the same
time that he might have ai^ked himself an-
otlier question. If the gallant men trom
York had swept down upon blm from the
east and from the west, chaining him to
their chariot wheel as they did on a late oc-
casion, his question would not have been :
Why did I do it, but, Why did I not do it.
He did help us in that, It Is true; but In an-
other case in which he was convhiced the
Government were right, which he had advo-
cated and supported, in that caae when the
two men of York, from the east and the
west, brought their Influence to bear upon
him, they led htm captive and made him, in
the light of open day and in the face of Par-
Hament, eat the words he had uttered. Then,
Sir, I mention this, not as a reproach but
I say It with pity for one for whom J enter-
tain respect as a bold and a valiant leader —
he said he failed to find anything the Gov-
emmenfr had done to promote ttoe prosperity
of this country. Let me tell the hon. gen-
tlemen opifosite what I believe with refer-
ence to the prosperity of the countiT'. This
very fact itself, that the Liberal Qovern-
meat attained power inerpired eonfldenee in
the pieople of this country^ gave them that
confidence which is necessary to business
and to business improvement; th« very fact
of the Liberal party being in power, acjl n
stable, harmonious Government, a G«iv>&f»i-'
3Knt loyal to the eonntvy and k>y«l to one
acother. bAing In nowep— ^bftt vsry fact, I
say, stimulated the confidence »of the p«opI«
of this country. Who doubts It ? How
eould buBlTmss anjoy any stimulus when, in

the very legislature of the nation, the men
directing its affairs were at daggers drawn ?
How could they have contldence that the
affairs of the country would be carried on
satisfactorily when they saw, at a critical
time in this country's history, at a time
when the peaceful relations that had ex-
isted so long between the motherland and «
the neighbouring land were actually en-
dangered, bow could they have confidence
on an occasion like that, when they saw
the gentlemen entrusted with the reins of
Government bringing on a crisis, seeing the
Minister of MlMtla and Defence, who might
have been called upon at any moment to
marshal his troops and send them out, gone
out on If rike, leaving that important de-
partment without any head ? How could
they have confldemce when they »aw the Min-
ister of Railways and Canals, whose ser-
vices might have been In demand at amy
moment to provide facilities for transporta-
tion, also out on strike, and that depart-
ment without a head ? How could they
have confidence when they saw 'he Minister
of Finance also out on strike avlng the
flnamces of the couMtry withoui any control
at a time when funds might be needed ?
They saw these gentlemen divided among
themneilves, a Government whose membera
were in open war with each other upon the
floors of this Chamber. Scenes like that will
go down to history, and form a black page
in the othemwiae bright annate of *hlfl coun-
try of ours. I say that when a Government
such as that wa<j didoiaced by a Government
loyal to the country and loyal to one an-
other, when the people saw the present
Government seated in power, then a feeling.^
of confidence revived throughout this whole
Dominion, and from that day to this that
confidence has gone on increasing. I thfnk
I am not naing the language of exaggera-
tion when I say that In the minds and In
the breasts of the people of Canada there
is to-day a feeling of confidence, en assur-
ance of prosiperltiy, and a hope of better
things, stronger than have ever existed
among them before.

Then, Sir, I come to notice another part
of the hon. gentleman's speech, in which he
took up a good deal of time, and I will ask
the patience of the Houee, or of those mem-
bers who may be inclined to listen to me,
while I deal in detail with some of the
changes of the tariff. The hon. gentleman,
in dlscnwl'tg this tariff, made several very
rash »tatement8. He said we had adopted
the Natlone! Policy In Its entirety.

Mr. MAOLjfSAN. Heiar, hear.

The MINISTER OT CtTST^MS. But the
leader of the (Jo'^ernment did wore than
tliat; he outdid h'toiseif, for, after having
made that statement, he said that In all the
ementlar features of the NatiOMj Policy wf
had added 5 per cent to it.

Sir CHAftLHB TtPPER. I am much

1 .1

mimmim

I J..

obliged to tK« hon. Icenttomaii for tht pro-
motion he bM given me.

The MINISTER OF C08TOM8. I do not
quite onderetand the bon. gentleman.

Sir CHARLES TUPP«E. The toon, vea-
tleman refers to me m the leader of the
Ooveroment.

Mr. BERGERON. It Is coming; It 1b com-
ing.

The MINISTER •F CUSTOMS. Well, If
ever the party opposite attain to power I
ahall not begrudsfe that honour to the hon.
geotleman, though I do not wl«h to see him
en]oy It at the present time. If I made a
mistake like that, I think he will under-
stand tbat, with all my best wishes foi
him, I hope he will long continue to hold
his present position. Well, now, the hon.
gentleman dealt with the speech of, the
Minister of Ftoamce, and he will have to
pardon me If, though I unintentionally paid
him a coimpllime(n.t ju.st now, I am obliged
to allude to his manner of dealing with
that speech In words which cannot be com-
plimentary. What do I find ? The Finance
Minister, to the able speech he bad delivered,
wltb a fairness that characterized his wlwjle
utterances, had given a list of articles, sixty
Items of the tariff, in order to show the
cbatigeB that had occurred therein; and, in
dnixtg »o, he did wbat was fair. Among those
articles he selected and put In the list were
articles that comprised nearly all In the
tariff in regard to which lit could be said
that the general tariff of this Government
was higher than the general tariff of the pre-
<^klcUng Oovammenit. My bon. friend gave tihe
preferential Hat with ome-elghth off and ^/ith
a quarter off, 12% per cent in the one case,
and 25 per cent, in th other. The hon.
leader of the Opposition did not do Himself
credit when, In oritlcisliig that statement, he
to<?k up eight of these articles which had
been raised In the genera! tariff from 80 to
35 per cent., he read the reduction of 12%
per oenit, and said (tbat the Brltlsih mamiuilac-
turers had to pay % of one per cent more
under this tariff than they had to pay under
the old tariff. Is that true ?

Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Yes.

The MINISTER OF CtTSTOMS. If tt Trae
true, it was not the whole truth, and tbat is
what men are expected to say in fair de-
bate.

Sir CHARLES TUPPER. The hon. g«n-
tlamiajn will pnrhape allow me to tell bim
that I was not dealing with the case of the
law £uB tt woujd come Into effect on 1^0 81st
July. I w^s dealing with the tew wbfcb
_thfi.^lonj_ge»rtlem'ttn put on the Staiut»w>ok

when I was dealing altogether with that
pot&t, if I had embodied more than that
which operated under the law as It stood on
the Statute-book last year.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. That Is
where I wtiolly differ with the bon. gentle-
man. He is dealing with the tariff which
this Parllameat enacted last session, and,
under the operation of that tariff, a 36 per
cent reduction was made In the preferential
scnedule after a certain date. That was as
mudh part of tIhe tariff as the 12% per oemt
reduction; It is the same tariff to-<lay as it
was last year, It Is not changed at all. But
the hon<. geoitlemau tooik the 12% per ceoit
reduction, and Ignored the fact that part of
the law provides for 25 per cent reduction
after the let July. There, I say, was a sup-
pression of truth in respect to this matter.

Sir CHARLES TUPPER. No.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. It was
unworthy of the hon. member to do it. I
tell the hon. gentleman tbat, when he ex-
pressed the desire tbat 100,000 copies of the
speech of the Finance Minister might be
circulated broadcast throughout this coun-
try, I re-echo his wirti; but when 100,000
go out, it will be a fortunate thing for the
hon. gentleman's reputation, if 100,000 cop-
ies of his own speech do not follow, for if the
people read his speech, and read the sprecb
of tite Finance Minister, they will »ny, with
Bhame on their faces : We did not believe It
possible that the leader of one ol the great
political parties would read utterances and
deal with statements of an ipponent, and,
in ^tog so, suppress the ttnsfah and gairble It
to suit his own ends.

Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I should Uloe, if
the hoc. gentleman would permit me, to ask
nlm one question. Under that tariff as It
Btam^ to-day, dealing witb it from the
standpoint th«t the hon. gentleman Is deal-
ing with it, I ask him If that which the peo-
ple of Bnglatnd were Iftd to expect, nami'ly
that there would he a reduction ok the duties
»B they exlaitied hi Canadta, oi 12% tx) 26 per
cenrt;, when tihe whole (tariff eamie into oper-
ation, was carried out, and if I did not de-
monstrate to the House yesterday, that, in
respect to a large number ol stapli imports
from England into this country toWay, on-
der the operation of the 12% per cent reduc-
tion, tbere are not dutlds over t*iose whldti
hon. gentlemen opposite found when they
came Into piower ? Instead of % reduction,
the ban. gentleman knows, that, having
raised the duties more than 12% per cent
over the whole list of articles referred *o, as
the duties stood when they came into pow*r,
the result was, that laat year British manu-
facturers and exporteiw to thta countiw wew

n ^ #^

to ask
as it
the
deal-
he peo~
n«Tn»'ly
dutleci
25 p«ar
opep-
not do-
hat, In
mporta
ay, tm-
reduo-
whlch
n they
octlon,
having
fpr cent
I to, as

tnat\ii-

Isted when bon. ceuttem«n opposite came
Into power, and yet the E)ngli»h exporter
was Itid tx> expect be would receive 12% per
cent reduction. To-day, with a5 pw cent
off on all theM leading ataple Imports into
thi* country, instead of there being a reduc-
tion of 28 per ceait., It la less than 12% per
omt, becauae han. gemitlieTOen oppositts, be-
fore they made the reduction, raised the
taaiia 12 Vi p«rr caut, so that they have % of
1 per cent less than 12Vj per cemt in the
propoaed reduction, which they were led to
believe would be 26 per cent. That was the
position.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I am not
taking exception to that part ol t^ hon.
gemtlemian's speenb. Ou* of sixty ortlckB,
he picked owt eight, with hie usual fairness
— items on which our general tariff has been
above the tariff of hon. gentlemen opposite;
but, in commenting on thta, It must be con-
sidered as one tariff and one law; there
are not two laws, one providing for a r»-
duction of 12% per cent, on the Ist August,
1898, and another providing for a reduction
of 25 per cent, afterwards; one law was
enacted, and the hon. gentleman is talking
about the tariff law we passed. While my
hon. friend the Finance Minister bad given
both columns, the hon. gentleiaan quoteid
only the 12% per cent reduction with respect
to those eight items out of the sixty on
which the reductkxn had taken place, and he
deterrn'oedly i-efused to take what the Fi-
nance Miini»ter had stated amd wbat was
before his owti eyes, that when the 25 per
«ent r'^ductioo was carried out, as it would
be after let of July, the rate of duty would
be materially below the tariff which hon.
ge^'tleinen opposite had adopted. That ki
the point to which we take exception In the
hon. gentleman's statement.

A great deal has been said by hon. gentle-
men opposite in regard to the present Gov-
ennaneait ad'optitag the National Policy. Thelif
tone has changed. We had criticisms made
last year by the late Finance Minister. In
what direction were they ? He said that
the preeent Oovennment had taken the Na-
tlQoial Policy in some respects, and not to
others. This year, the leader of the Opposi-
tion said the Government have taken the
National Policy In its eoaftlnety; nay, more,
they haviB in all essential particulars added
5 per cent. What did the late Finance Min-
ister tell us last yeai", in criticising our
policy 7 He saw the woollen schenlule of
Imports, of wMoh there are millions a year
In value, and that It had been raised from
30 ,to 85 per cemt, ait all everats in ragard to
some of its items; and he recognised the
tact that England wtt« a toeen competitor
In them linee,, amd we were ena«tlng a. law,
9 not tor a day, but a law wWcu we tlmngbt

would be a great reduction. The hon. gentle-
man knew then that in these items we had
raised the general tariff 6 per cent.; but his
criticism at that time was that tUie would
not save the great woollen industries of the
country. H« said, "Walt till you 25 per
cent preferential tariff, or even your 12%
per cent preferential tariff, comes Into effect,
and you will viripe out the great woollen in-
dustries of this country." They do not say
so this year — why 7 Because the predictions
they made have been falsified by the returns
from the woollen mills in the country. What
do the papers tell them 7 Mill after mill
reopened aind running on full time, and other
mills running overtime. We have heard
nothing about the destruction of the wool-
len industries on this occasion. Now, this
Is a point which I want to have fully under-
stood, because I believe there are people
in the Llbeaial par.ty who think we have Mxt
dome quite aa much, oir wlno have mot rcia-
Used ho^ much this Ooveinim«at tea done
in the way of tariff reform; and I will
therefore ask your attention and tlie atten-
tion of hon. gentlemen opposite to some
tables which I have prepared in "reference
to this point. I have had prepared « state-
ment of the articles entered for consumption
in the six monthci ending December 31st,
in the years 1896 and 1897. In the on«
six months tlie National Policy was in force;
in the other six months the preferential
tariff was in force to the extent of 12%
pe<r oent. Hom. gentlemen sboold bear In
mind that the imports referred to In this
statement are not only the imports from
Great Brllaln, but the Imports from all coun-
tries, and therefore the reduction which I
will show has been made on these lines Is
not a retfHction on impoirifs ftnom Quwat Bri-
tain alone, but a percentage reduction on
the total imports In the various lines I will
mention. I have here an import of some
f 16,000,000 in round numibers during the
six months ending December Slst, 1897, un-
der the new tariff, and an Import of 118,-
500,000 in round numbers in the six months
ending December Slst, 1896, under the old
tariff. Taking the tola) Importations and
dividing them by the duties collected, yon
get at the average ad valorem perceni'age,
and I take the different ad valorem percent-
ages and sl>ow the reductions that have
been made in the duties on tiie arlicles
which I eamnwrate^

Mr. SPROTJLE. But If the values are
changcfd, it will spoil your calculation.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I was
about to refer to that myself. Hon. gen-
tlemen will recogolse that where the arti-
cles chfti^ce In value, and you ^hare a aum-
ber of Items of specific duties, yon are not
in a position to arrive at a corr^r^naigia^

i.f. -

iwim

thoM articles In which, «xeept In the ea«e of
coal, the duties art ad valorem. Now, what
are the (acta ? On bltnmlnoae coal, on the
importattov^ for thoae viz months, the r»<
dnctlon In duty has been 4 per cent. Cotton
and maniitactureH of, was an item on which
one hun. gentleman ftnld we had Increased
the duty; but th«»e tables show that instead
of an Increase imder the working of the
new tariff, there has been a percentage re-
duction, as compared with the old tariff,
of 6 2-6ths per cent. On glass, there has
been a reduction of 5 T-lOthn per cect.
On hats and caps, there has been a reduc-
tion of S 2-8 per cent. On Iron and steel
and manufactures of, of which the Imports
tor ittie six montius aj« meao-ly #6,000,000,
there Is a percentage reduction of 14 per
cent. On leMher, there Is a slight Increase,
but so slight that I have not worked it
out. On woollens and manufactures of, of
wWcb thew have been ovw f4,000,000 of Ina-
porta during the six motrths — another of the
items in which hon. gentlemen said we had
Increased the duty — Instead of an Increase
there is a decrease of 4 2-5 per cent. These
are the^'gr-eat leading articles on which hon,
^ gentlemen said we h^d raised the duties.

Mr. WALLACE. Would dhe hon. gentto-
man permit me to ask him a questiom which
is pertinent ? Are these percentages of
reduction percentages of the cost of the
article or percentages of the duties ?

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Percent,
ages of tne reductions of duty under tlw
new tariff as compared with the duty under
the old tariff.

Mr. WALLACE. That is, supposing cot-
ton manrufacituineB weire 80 per cent beitorei,
they would be 28 3r5 per cent now — is that
what we are to understand ?

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. As I pro-
ceed with another table, you will see exact-
ly the way I have worked It out,

Mr. WALLACE. I think we are enfltled
to ^.statement as to that right here.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. You shall
have It, If you posww your soul In patience
a little. Now, I want to deal with a few
(Mime Items. Wltihonl: desiring to be sec-
tional or to recognise dlffeorent Intereets In
the eommunlty, we do recogfnlse the fact
stated hy the Finance MlnfBter that the
greatest of all the Industrie* of this coun-
try^ without belittling any other industry,
is the great aigrlcnltural Industry of the
country. We cannot look at the exports
without that fact being lmpr««eed upon <mt
minds, and you cannot convewie with a
bosiiMss moM in any of the busineae cen-
tf*<a, thfl towns or vlUageH, without finding'
that he reeognliee that the great agricul-
tural industry, without belittling any dt t*fe
others, is the great preponderating Interewt
of the eowntry. Bon, gehtleuien opposite

have endeavouned, by staterassits dnvold^of
truth la many cams, to lead the agricul-
turists of this country to believe that no r»-
daietlo^ has been macte in the rates of taxfr>
don that bear upon them. I am aware that
in one or two or three articles, such as reap-
ers and mowers and ploughs, hon. KentMiion
opposite have sought to charge tlie Liberal
party with having broken solemn pledges for
a reduction of duties on these articles whsa
they came Into power.

Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear.

The MINISTER. OF CUSTOMS. Hon.
gentlemen say, " Hear, he^r." Whatever
may have been the opinion of different mem-
bers of t>arliaQient or difforent individuals
throughout the country In reference to the
reduction of taxation wii'eh they would
like, I have this to say, that while ideas no
doubt differ somewhat with regard to differ-
ent articles and while there may be disap-
pointments and while some people may have
understood from something that may have
been said that there might be a reduction or
a wiping out of certain duties to which the
hon. gentleman has alluded, I fall to find
that any direct pledge was ever given, such
as the hon. gentleman sought to make us
believe was given, by any of the membeie
of the Adminlstratlion. The hon. gentleman
knows that the platf(Jrm of the Liberal party
was adopted at the great Liberal conveai-
tlon, and that In that platfohn we TIeclared
for the lessening of the burdens upon the
people and a return to a revenue tarlft.

Mr. DATIN. I quoted the words of the
Minister of Agriculture.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I think,
from my recollection of the words of the
Minister of Agriculture, that he expressed
the belle* that the dtttj on agricultural Im-
plements was too high, as reggrds many of
these articles, and he desired to see the duty
reduced, but I do not think he declared that
he would put reapers and mowers on the
fi-ee list.

Mr. DAVIN. Was the duty reduced then ?

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Mo, Dot
the hon. gentleman wants to mflke out that
the Mintster of Agriculture promised that
these 'articles would go on the free list.

Mr. DAVIN. I made that out, too, but
now you use the word "reduced."

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Very well,
let US' look Jtt thdS. I say there may have
been an understandiing and there may have
been dewlres on the part of different Individ-
uals In this direction, and that, but I wish
to point out how the Government had
to view this queatlcm. When this qoestloh
of reftpers ana taowers came up weicre us
for eonaiderattoo, what did we find? Wij
foufid tJMut tSieae a.rtlcl@g had been taxed 35
per eeirt. under the old tartfr, iuDd that hi

but

well,
have
have
Ilvtd-
wUih
h&d
stion

re vm

A 35

at hi

1894, the late OoTemment, departing froo
Ita principle* and with the ulterior object
in yjew o( fftraigthenlnij ittiell with the peo-
ple, cut down the duty on thete to 20 per
CHUt, while <VtX9y kit otber aoitlclM In the
high dutiable lUt. We aecognlted t)ie (act
that there were duties In the tariff which
were excewilve and bore too heavily upon the
farmer, and we determined to reduce tli«m.
Let me tell the hon. gerntlemen oppoeltt that
the difference between the two political par-
tlea upon this quewtloin) — and I dio not kntemd
to enter into a discussion of the question of
free trade and ppotectlom — Is thta.

Mr. DAVIN. Would the hon. gentleman
alltxw me to read what the Mlnia.ter of Agri-
culture said 7

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. No, I
will not. You can read ft afterwards.

Sir CHARLES TUPPER. He doe« not
want to bear It.

The MINIiSTER OF CUSTOMS. Would
^he hon. gentleman like to be thus continu-
ally Interrupted In an argument he Is mak-
'ug?

Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Yes, when an
hon. gentleman charges In hia place on the
floor of this House that an Inaccurate quo-
tation has been made by another hon. mem-
ber, he ought to be ready to hear that quo-
tatlion read and allow the House to decide

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I thiuk
there Is no difference between us as to the
accuracy of the statement. I understood the
hon. gerntlemaii to say that the Mlnleiter
of Agriculture did not promise that them
would go on the free llsit. Doee he want to
read an extract In which the MlnlBter of
Agriculture said that mowers end reapers
would be placed on the free list ?

Mr. DAVIN. That la exactly what I want
to do. This la It.

Some hon, MEMBERS. Whose speech 7

Mr. DAVIN. The Minister of Agrfeul-
ture'B.

Some hon. MEMBERS. When delivered 1

Mir. DAVIN. At Moosomln In October,
1894, ^ou #111 find It In the '*Specta<tQy."
Thto le It:

"As a farmer, he was not satisfied with the
"reduction which had be«n made tnthe
" agTicult,ural Implemeat duty, because the
" United States Gongresa have made a sto-nd-
*• ing offer ol reciprocity in Implementtj, and
" it wa^ the duty of the Canadlaa Qovera-
" inept to ta](e advantage ott^t ofl«i'^

T(he MINISTER OF AGRIGULTUBE (M*.
Fisher). Hea?, hear.

Mr. DAVIN (readlHg)

"Last year the faxioers of We«:;ern Canada
" Imported tl20,000 wosttb of Ameirleao Im-
" piemients,— —

The MINlSTEtl OP AGltrClJL¥uRE.
Hear, h»ar.

Mr. DAVIN (reartliHt) —

" aa which they paid f40,000 duty. B»-

" ferrlng to the Masoey-H arris combine, bs
' claimed that the fact that these people
" spoke of going to the States to fight tbs
" Yankees in their own market showsd that
" Canadian manufacturers wure able to gst
" along without protsctlon."

The MINISTER OP AGRICULTURE.
Hear, tear.
Mr. DAVIN (reading)—

"OaiDttddams wsira able tio hold tbedr own
" with the Yankees in any walk of life."

The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE.
Hear, hear.

Mr. DAVIN (rea^Jlug)—

"Ma«sey-H arris got protection, why
" should no* the farmers ? "

Ttoe MINISTER OP AGRICULTURE.
Hear, hear.

Mr. DAVIN. That holds out a clear pro-
mise.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I ask— -
and I am In the judgment of this House— If
it is not a piece of impertinence tor the hon.
gentleman to rise and make a staitemei»t like
that. H« attempts to contradict me and
when I gave him the opportunity of proof
he utterly falls. I will show the hon. gen-
tleman, before I am through, what It was
the hon. Minister of Agriculture desired,
but I want now to lay down the distinction
that exists between the two poUtlcal parties
with reference to this mattr-r. The princi-
ple of hon. gentlemen oppowite Is protection
to the manufacturers, and it this brings amy
revenue, that la merely an Incident. But the
policy of (the Liberail party Is, first of aJl,
revenue, and. then what protection may
be Involved In tha* Is the Incident. That Is
the distinction b9twt«en the two poUtlcal
parties, and when hon. gentlemen opposdte
quote expreseilona of Liberal speakers In fayr
our of eliminating every vestige of protec-
tion frtan the tariff, they are quoting simply
the policy of the elimination of the prlnclpls
of ppoteetlon, as the main feiiture of tli« tar-
iff, and the substitution In Its place of a rs-
venue tariff In which protwtion Is merely m
Incident. Hon. .gentlemen kno\f what the
platform of the Lll^arial party was. It was
formulatflid by tli© great Liberal party In con-
vemt ion aseewblexi.. In tbat . cooarsBatlcm Hm
Liberal party lioclareid what to tiielr opinion
was the best poMcy for this coontigr, and
this QoTernmentls deteraplo«d, as far as tt
can, to patT^ opt th^t platform.

Mr. DAVIN. I lhong*t ttoe hon. gftutle-
man was going to »xplatn-j-*«-i.. ■

Some hon. MEMBERS. Order.

Thft MINXSTER.OF CUgta^";!'. I hay»
no-deshre to be dlscottrt«|ou« but 1 must.pr^-
test against ttj«««* 'nterruptlc«»,'

Mr. DAVIN. I tho»ght the hon. gwitle-

:;ii

:'i»

iii i-fif ii i i» tr

man waa fgolag to explain wbat the Minl»t0r
of Agriculture said and what he ted the peo-
ple ot the North-Weet to underatand.

The MINI8NER OF CUSTOMS. We have
heard the hon. {centlemaD read 'already what
the Mlaiater of Agrlcultura said.

Mr. SPEAZEB. I do not wWh that there
should be any misunderstanding. Hon.
membera must undetrstand that they cannot
Interrupt an hon. gentleman who has the
floor, without his consent.

Mt. DAYIN. I hayo no dcsji« to do lit.

Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER. He
Is willing.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Yes, but
not to be Interrupt -d all day. In order to
Show that I have rightly understood the po-
licy of the tw-o political parttee, and the dis-
tinction beitween them, let me quote from
th« ez-Flaance Minister's speech In 1894,
when he Introduced his tariff reeolutions.
As I have stated, you can find the platform
of the Liberal piartty laid down In the co(d>-
ventlon of Its representatives assembled In
this city, but you cajoot find anything of
the kind to show what the policy of the
Conservative party really is. They neiver
ventured to tall their representa.'-.lvee to-
getfaeir in convention, and I am forced there-
fore to take as an avowal of their policy a
declaration of It from the mouth of the one
besit fitted to gi^e f expression, namely, the
Finance Minister, when he Introduced his
tariff in 1894. You will find it In the
"Hansard" of 1894, vol. 1, page 207 :

"I wlsb to state here that the Government
" of to-day, and the party which supports
" tfcft Government of to-day, take their stand
" squarely and firmly upon the embodiment
" and upon the p««ervatloin of the principle
" nt pirotieotlon In th» tariff, tlw degree of
" that protection, to be according to the clr-
" eimuftances of the Industry and the condi-
" tions of business amd of trade at the pre-
" sen* time."

Iq the some spoech he lays down this pro-
pnwltlou .

"The turllf which wws anade in 1878— — "
He iDlersi undoutitedly to 1879.
"The tai-iff which was made In 1878 was
"a practical tikriCf, and the tariff which is
"to be arranged duntaig this session must
" also *iav« thfflit fSBaitune, If pOMrtblto, of be-
" tng a pmcftical tariff, and must take cog-
" Alsanee of the varying conditions of dlfler-
" erat Ittinsttiim, and mu»t mete oat to them,
" o» «he principle which we have stated,
" the pr«('aettou wh*eh Is reasonably duo to
" thMft, miA nBOBsof.ry In order to maintain
"posslttle industries to t^^r portion In this
" coantsy."

Th«t kt th^ policy of the OfK^-f.vatlve
party, of which party the hon. memiber foi
W«rt Asstnfboia has been a most loyal mem-
b«r. Whate^r they proposed In this Houtt,

they could count \.c . him not only to vote
♦or it but to defer 1 ... Or, even 11 he should
iipeak against it, they could always rely up-
on his vote, .fow, let me ask that hon. gen-
tleman, as t' m«mher of the party. In the
face of thilo declaration of policy of the
party with which tb^ hon. gentlemuan is con-
nected, if they h -.d been returned to power
In 1896. inj . ?a I of the Liberal party, and
the agrlcultur:.V implement manufQcturens
had made repr««t o atlons of the lacts to the
Govsimment, whait ^ould bhe hon. gentleman
have done ? II the manufacturers had
come and said to the Finance Minister :
We want yon to lool. at these figures taken
from your own trade returns. What are
they, he would say. They would answer:
We beg to point out to you that in the year
1896, in the six months ending 81»t Decem-
ber, 872 harvesters of a value of $87,071
were imported Into Manitoba and the North-
west Territorii^, to say nothing of the peet
of the Dominion, while, for the correspond-
ing six months of the three next yearS' in
which we hiave workied under a tariff n&-
duced by you from 35 per cent, to 20 per
cent, tanetre ihae bevn a marked Increase. In
1895, for th^ corresponding six months the
numlMrr of harvesters imponed into Mani-
toba and the North-west alone was 760,
in 1896 it was 803. while for the six months
ending December Slst, 1897, the number of
harvesters imported into Manitoba and the
North-west alone was 1,432. representing
a value of $144,28». And they would say
to the hon. Minister of Finance ■

Mr. DAVIN. The hon. gentleman asked
me what I would say. I will tell him, It he
will allow me.

The MINISTER OP CUSTOMS. The hon.
gentleman (Mr. Davin) is very anxious to
lake every opportunity to rise. I could
mt know exactly what the hon. gentleman
would say, but I venture to say that If the
Oovemment aeosded .to snch' a request on
the ;>art of the manufacturers and had put
implements back to where they were, he
would have supported them.

Mr. DAVIN. No.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. That Is
my fan precision.

Mr. DAVIiN. I rise to a point of order.
The hon. gentleman has pointed to me and
has said he would like to know what 1
would do If my party had got into povn» Ip
the last election and certain figniw were
laid before the Finance Mh>l«ter. Do not
you think, Mr. Speaker, that I should have
an opportunity to tell the hon. gentleman
what I would say.

Mr. SPEAKER. I am afnkM I must leave
that laa^Iy In the jhidgntent of the hon.
member who ha» the floor to say whether
he wanted a response or whether M' was
only o»lng a fignre of spesch. ,.. - >

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. If I hav«
said anything wrong I am uorry for tt. Uj

con

stifl

Poll

Insf

era]

the I

FleJ

sub]

redif
det

s«

argrameot is that it lian. gentl)m«o oppo-
site had beon returned to vower tn 1896 aod
the Implenient manufacturers had come to
them and bad gihown, that since tlie reduc-
tion of the tariff the number and value of
those machines Imported was increased four
times over in Manitoba and the North-west,
and had demanded, in view of the party de-
claration tliat the tariff must be arranged
with a view to protection of the industry
regnrdless of revenue, th^t they should re-
stkire tih« duty to 80 oir 85 per cenit, if tb«7
were consistent with their principles, they
would have been forced to concede that
point. The manufacturers could have
polntad out in addition that they were
changed 80 or 25 per ceDt >ta all the ma-
chinery in their factories and that even the
workmen were compelled to pay 30 or 85
per cent on the tools. All this being shown
if the Conservatives desired to be consistent
they would be obliged to grant the request.
While it is true with regard to reapers and
mowers that the rate of doty was not low-
ered, I contend that by the plan that was
adopted by the Qovemment In this matter
of giving the agricultural implem'^nt manu-
factOTiers relief by reducing the duty on
their raw material, substantial advantage
resulted to the consumer. The reduction of
the duties on the raw material enabled the
Canadian manufacturers voluntarily to re-
duce the price of implememts, I believe by
fo apiece. And the Customs Departmeul
gave a ruliiig admitting at ¥92 each a lairge
line of implements that, up to that time,
had been charged duty on the value of f 100.
But I w4sh to point out to hon. gentlemen
opposite these two or three items of which
I have spoken, only a few among the Items
used by the farmer, as instancing a fulfil-
ment of the pledge that was given l>y the
Minister of Agriculture. I have here a list
of sixteen cu^ricuKural implemen'te, and I
propose to show the rate of duty under the
old tariff and the rate ,of duty under the
general schedule of the Fielding tariff. I
am not going t(7 quote the preferential tariff,
because I will be canddd with the House
and say that, so far none of the agricultural
implements I am about to name have come
from the old country. Seme may come
wheal the 26 per cent reducti<m Is in- force.
No one can foretell how that will change
the current of trade.

But I tell yv>u frankly now that none have
come in so far, a.id, therefore I do not In-
stitute a compari.'ion with the old National
Policy rate and the nr«rferentlal rate, but I
institute a comparisom between the old gen-
eral rate and the NatioT ni Policy rate, and
the general rate that w«:-! enacted by the
Fielding tariff. Notice what <T(lnctl«n!n« heye
been made, and tell me wl> -'ipt they are
Bubstftntial or not. I give the j rcentage of
reduction, the difference In ttie rnto of dirty
determines the percentage of reducti'^n from

the old rate of duty. 8om« may say : Ton
take 25 pear cent off that is very little.
People do not realize how much 25 per cent
off the old tariff rate amounts to. If you
tell a farmer In the Nortth-west, or any-
where else : I will give you 60 cents a bushel
for your wheat, when he has been getting 80
cents a bushel, and he should say to you:
Why, that is a terrible reduction; then you
may turn round and say, in the language of
hon. gentlemen opposite: No, that is no re-
duc+lpn; that is only 25 per cent off. But
they would think it was a reduction. Just
the same, and just so surely does this per-
centage of the reduction In the duty on the
Implemenits the(y use be«ur that relatlcm to
the itaxee thait were imposed upon Vbem
under the Na/tional Policy. Now, let us
look ait some of th«0e airtliicles : y

Percent-
Qeneral age of
Tariff Tariff, reduction,
1894. 1897. 1897.
p.c. p.c. p.c.

Axes 35 25 28H

Hay or straw knives. 86 25 28H

Hand rakes 35 25 28%

Farm rollers 80 26 16%

Road or field roJlenv.. 80 25 16%

Windmills 80 25 16%

Horse powers 80 25 16%

Portable engines 80 25 16%

Threshers 80 25 16%

Feed cutters 35 25 28%

Separators 80 25 , 16%

Potato diggers 85 26 28%

Grain crushers 85' 26 28%

Fanning mills 85 25 28%

Hay tedders 86 25 28%

Manure spreaders .... 26 20 26

Now, then, *o summarise, I have given you
sixteen articles of agricultural Implementa
used by farmers, seven of which have bean
reduoed at the mate of 16% per cent, one hea
been rednceid 20 per cemt, and eigint toam
been reduced at the rate of 28% per cent
from the old tariff. I Invite attcmtlon again
to a statement I am going to make, that, to
that table, I have a comparison of the re-
dnctionsi in the old rate under the National
Policy, and the general tariff rate under the
Fielding iarlff— not the preferential rate, for
if any came hi under the preferential rate,
there would be 25 per cent further reduction
off the amounts that I have already given.
Now, I am about to read a table wMch, I
tear, will prove tiresome to you, Mr. Speak-
er, and perhaps to the members of th«
House. But I deaire to get upon "Han-
sard" something w^blch X eonslder valuable
to ttie people, at the rtsk of maktog mymlS
wearisome and tedious. I desire, also, to
do H for the bmieui of the ex-Mtnlster of Fi-
nance, who, when he ^oes upofc the plat-
form, may not desire to give that dos*
scrutiny to ttie facts of the case that nigiit
be des4raMe, and I am about to place apm

re
- )i

tb» "HaiMard a vtatiemant from which h«
can see Tor biTDWlf the enormous retductiouii
that have been made in the rate of tx;zation
•opoai the farmeiii ol this country. 'So, whetn
he goes again upoa th« pkuttarm, he can tell
the people : I aaid before that you have no
rolief under this tarlK; but I find, upon
closer investigatioin, that the roduotions in
taxation have been simply enormous, and it
i* my duty to lay the facta before you. I
have given you sixteen articles under the
gvneral tariff, and I propose now to give you
a list of 107 articles. There are about 447
dutiable items in the tariff and 200 free
items, and I think I may say, a^^euiking sub-
ject, to correction — 'but I believe I am absor
lutely correct^ — ^that there is not ome among
all these items thaty if a full prefeirentlal
tariff were applied to it, would not sliow a
lower rate of duty than that under the Na-
tional Policy. Them, I want to point out
that, undeir that tariff, the great bulk of the
rates on goods coming in from all count^lea
have been reduced. Why, Sir, the prefer-
aotlal rates, applied to articles that come
from Great Britain will show a reduction
greater, I think, than some people have been
led to believe. Now, on those 107 articles 1
am about to give you, as I have verified by
ofBcena in my department, there are imports
of all of them, though in some cases very
few, that come in from I>ritaiu or that will
oome in under the preferential rate. I want
to draw your attention to another point,
eonoerning which my views differ a little,
P6(r*hap9, from those of sumo hon. gentlemen,
though, In a general sense, I am in agrree-
ment with them In this mati^er. I lay it
down as a piiioipo«itloin that lit would be diffl-
•ult to controvert Eruccessfully, that, when
you introduce an article Into a country, its
Introduction under a lower rate of duty
would, under normal circumstances, extra

circumstanoes aot coonlng into the case,
have an effect, mot only upon the artic)^ that
was introduced, but upon a vast quantity of
that same article that is produced and
bought In the country. You, therefore,
gain an idea of the amount of the reduction.
Now, I do not propose to weary the House
with the fignires. 1 want to give them in
detail Buflaciently to bring me within the
rules of the House and warnSint me In
placJr"'- tkkB taJble in the oolumna of the
"Ha^i3<ard." I will omit the general tar-
iff of 1897, which, as I Buld, reduces the
duty on most of these articles coming from
all countries. You will obaerve upon what
articles the percentage of reductlxDoi does not
amoi!n+ to 25 per cent. I, therefore, will
give the rate of duty undeir the National
Policy tariff, and then the rate of duty
under our tairitt at the pireferential rate of
25 per cent disoount, which goes into effect
»n the Ist of July, and I give it on articles,
not, as I saiKi, all of which come from Eng-
land, but some or all of which will aam«
from England. And who will say that '
If these articles from England came
in under the 12% per cemt reduction, what
the Increase will be when a reduction of 25
per cent is made ? Every one of these arti-
cles Is an absolute necessity, and is used by
every agrlcultutist in the country in his
house or on his farm. Among these articles,
I ask attention to a lonjj' list of 'agricultural
implements, over and above that I have al-
ready read; and I ask attention to the redue
tlons as answering the question whetlhar the
Government has carried out its pledges to re-
duce the duty on agricultural implements
end radiuce the burdens on the faomiers ? The
list of articles, with the new rate under the
preferential duties, and the percentage of re-
duction under the new rates as compared
with the old, is as follows :-r-

Artioles.

1894-95.

Specific.

1897.

General

. '

Beciprocal Ta-
riff. J p.c. off.

Soap, laundry... ,.,
S^I>,.N. 2. S

See<J,N.O.P

Strawboard ..

TMred paper.

Wan paper. .... . . , , • ^

Ic. per. lb. ^i. i k V
1 jc. per lb .
SOc. per ioolbfl*.

• « ■ et

Pamts ,

PaiiB green

BuJldbg brick.

Oro<?kery,

Window glaafi . ,

33 p.n.» also l^o,
roil and 2& px.

"H •— ■

JP.fliT

orSS

. 20

•W

i P. G.

Ic. p. lb.

lie, p.-lb.

p. 0.

> • ' • » •

25
25

35,

p. 0.

i'iVi

. 4 • . ••

P. 0,

p. 0.
|c. p. lb.

He. p.lb.

« 4 * • vrtf t >

P.O.

26^'

181
18|

26i
1

't
1«
22i
16

p. 0.
26
26
26
56
26
26

31
26

»t

26
26
2i

. 0.

26
26
26
55
26
26

31
26

.3&

26
26

Articles.

1894-95.

Specific.

1897.

General

Reciprocal Ta-
riff. J p.c, oft".

Glass tableware. . .
Whips

Boota and shoeb. . .
Springs and axles.

Cut nails

Nails, N.E.S.
Wire nails....

Cut^^taoks ....

Wood screws..

Buckthorn fencing. . .
Wire fencing, N. B. S
Iron or steel nuts,
washers, strap hinges
and bolts

Locke,butts and hinges,

IS t £j* O* •••••• ••••••

Cutlery

Files and rasps.

Adzes...... ..........

Cleavers

Hatchets

Saws.,..

Wedges

Hammers

Crowbars

Picks

Mattocks

Tools, not agricultural.

Scythes.

Sickles

Reaping books

Edgmg knives.

Hoes

Pronged forks

Snaths

Post-hole dit-gers.. .....

Agricul tu ral t ool8,n .e. s

Shovels and spades

Lamps and lanterns. . .

Clothes wringers......

Agate, granite and en-
amelled iron or steel
hollow-ware. . . . ....

Tinware

Pumps, iron or wood . .

Pails, tubs, brooms,
washbo^rds.pounders
and rolling pins

[)ii6o.

Furniture...., ,

Cotton wadding

Cotton yarns

Cotton fabrics, white.

$20 p. ton but not
less than 36 p.
c, also Ic. p.
lb. and 20 p. c.

|c. per lb

Ic. per lb

ri leper 1,0001
\ IJc.perlb. .. i
3c., 6c. and 8c. p.
lb., but not less

than 36p.c

}c. per lb

lcp.lb.& 20pc 1
lc.p.lb.&26pc j

»«•••■ •••••• •••••••^•••i

50cpdoz.and26po
2§c each «id20p>d

p. c.

30
35
25

or38

• • « •

■ • • •

or46J
oris
27J

or44}

32}
32}
35

. 35
36
36
3f>}
30
36
30
35
36
36
35
36
36
36
3S
35
36
36
35

or36
30

or36}

35
26
8&

20
i 25
30
22}
36
25

|c. p. lb.

p. 0.

}c. p. lb.

Ic.p.lb'A
25 pic.

' • • • • f * I

p. 0.

30
35
25

• • • •

• • • ■

35
16
15

orl3|

26 .

35
25
26

20
26
30
20
26
26

p. 0.

8
33i

45}

14f
7tV

14?

16|

P.O.

•••«••

ic. p. lb.

•••«••

p. c.

/uc. p. lb,

p. 0.

22}

261

18|

26^

r • • •

22}

• * • •

26i

26}
11}

32J

22}

23}

22}

18|

18'

IB;

26}

26.
26
26

31
50
26
66

26
60

30
30
3<5
36
36
36
30
26
36
26
36
36
36
46
48
46
46
46
46
46
46
46
27
25

15 I 26
26

16|

Articles.

1894-95.

Speciflo.

1897

•

General 1

-a

4> U

O Jy

0) u
Mo

C
9)

CL>

Reciprocal Ta
riff. J- p.c. off.

13
>

un-

Cotton fabrics,

bleached

Cotton fabricB,coloured

Damask of linen

Tablecloths

Towels....

Cotton quilts, white. . .
do coloured.

Sheets

Handkerchiefs

Curtains

Linen, silk and cotton

clothing

Collars.....

Cuffs ......

Shirts, over $3 per doz.

" under $3 per doz.
Velvets and silk fabrics

Ribbons

Cotton thread in hanks
do N.E.S.

Horse clothing, jute...
Linen and jute manu

facturea, N.E.S

Bags of linen, jute or

seamless cotton

Socks and stockings . .
Knitf«d goods, N.E.S.

Shawls

Wool fabrics

Tweeds, flannels.blank-

ets, cloths, coatings

(wool)

Carpeting, jute and

hemp

Carpets, ingrain wool..

do do cotton

de N.E.S
Enamelled floor, stair,

shelf and table oil

cloth

24c.doz.and25p.c
4c.pairand25p c.
Ilpdoz and2 p c
36 p. c

Window shades.

-Uinhrellaa* . .....

Gloves and mitts
Hats and bonnets
Brac e s and suspenders
Fur capp, coats, Ac . . ,
Pertillzers, compound
ed or manufactured,

Combs

Brushes

Twins and cotton cord

• ••••••••••• ••«•

lOcpdoz pr&35pc,

••• •••••<

5c.porlband25p.c.

5c.p.8q.yd.&25p.c
3c.p.eq.yd.&25pc.

30 p.c. but not less
tnan4c.pereqyd

36 p.c. but not less
tilau5c.perflqyd

I ••»♦»• r« ••»•• •■

»ge,.,..,

Cordage, N.E.S.......

licp.lb.AlOp.c.

p. c.

22J

32^

32i

}36J

30
30

25
30

20
40
35
26
30

32j^

36
36
30

48
35
35
SO
85
26

p. c.

p.c.

25
35
30
30
30
30
30
30
36
36

•*•■*•

161
20

18|
26i
22}
22}
22}
22}
22}
22}
26^
26i

20
20

7t^

■'il

36
36
36

'"24"
3

26i
26i
26i

26i

30
35
16
25
30

22}
28i

I8i
22}

161
20

181

20
36
35
30
35

, , . . ^ ^ ^ ^

26J

22}
26i

12}

20
18*

1^,

26i

18f

3
3

"in

22}

36
35
S5
30
36
30

26i

26|

22}

..... .^

"26'

10
35
£5

7}
26

18*

1^1

26
26

■

• •.* <••*

p.c.

I6|

12}

12}
12}

20
43

12}

26
36
25
10
12}

26
27
27
12}

26
26
25
26
10

26
26
25

25
38

Articka.

1894-96.

Specific.

Ad valorem

1897.

Percentage

of
Decrease.

Books on agriculture

Binder twine

Barbed wire

Rape seed

Mushroom spawn.

Seed beans from Great Britain

d^alvanized iron or steel wire, Nos. 9, 12
and 13 gauge ,

6c. per lb
Jc. pfcf lb

16o. per bush.

p.C.

10
20

•••ff ••••••

Free
doj

do
do
do

p. e^

100
100
100
lOO
100
100

106

I leave It to hoa. gentlemeai oppoelte to
say whether w© have not advanced in the
direction of tarlH retorm raspeeftlng agri-
cultural itnplemesitB.

Mr. DAVIN. Is that 27 per cent reduction
on shovels and spadee with the prefeireiir-
ttal allowance off ?

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Yes.

Mr. DAVIN. Hardly any of tl>ese articles
come in trom England.

The MINISTEK OF CUSTOMS. I in-
structed my officers to carefully pcrefpare the
■list. I have already said that some come
to in larger and others in minor quantities;
but they come in under the 12% per cent re-
duction, and it is impoeslble to tell whait
the increase will be under the 25 per cent re-
duction. Thero is, at all eveoits, tliat re-
lief given. I have placed In tWs list, be-
cause them articlea are needed by agricultur-
teta a» W011 as otbera, oottons, woollens and
othor Items, Just as tiie Finiance Miolstnr did,
not selecting some articles that snpport my
case, but de^iing with the general staple ar-
ticl«^9 that come In from Greet Britain in
large quantities and whifch the farmers have
to buy, ¥ow, I feel e» great regret as hon.
gentleman do at ojy havii^ Jo read tiiis
statemeat, which I know is not Iratereetlng,
«»d which, if one wanted to make a speech
at all intereeting, he would eschew by all
possible means. But I felt It desdrable to
put these figuree upon "Hansard," and I in-
vite criticism upon tljem. I know w*at the
criticism of hon. gentlemen oppoeite will
amount to. It will amount to this, that
t-hert are yei^ few of some of the«i articles
coming from England. I grant that in stmie
few items; but, neverbhelwjs, evep in these
some do conje from Buslnnd; and if some
have come in under the 12% per cent reduc-
4«oo, vwrt quantifies may come in under tttw
25 per cent reduction. In this list, I have In-
cluded the great staple Hoep which are iised
by all claseso in the co(mmuin*ty, which go
into every houseooid. I have shovm that
»vm tn the it^ns on wttieh tfae lea*t reduc-
tloo has been m«de, It is a very ^eat reduc-
tion to the burdens which the people hav? tQ

bear. Now let me summarise. In these 107
irems which I have read, we have made tin
ioUowlng reductions :—

PERCENTAGE OF REDUCTIONS UNDER
THE RECIPROCAL TARIFF.

reduction of 6^

per cent

do 10

do I2>^

do 165^

do 20

do 23

do 25

do 27

do 28

do 30

do 31

do 36

<io 37'A

ao 38

do 43

do 45

do 46

do 50

do 55

do 60

do 100

Of these 107 articles, on which these re-
ductions have been made, all or nearly all
a^-e articles used by the farmer, and miainy
am a«ricn]ituaial imptemerats and tooDi, ooa
wliich tfliteone aire raduotione of from 88 iho 45
per oonit, while some articles, like binder
twine, and wire for fencing, have been made
free. Now, while I anticipate, and have an-
tldpttted, what the criticism of hon. g«itle-
men opposite will be, I slrall waott t!M&,
when cTiticisjng these figures, to demon-
strate to the House, as they will be bound
to do, tbiat if articles have come in bM>m
l^rltaln, It may bft in small quant{«k!« fei
some caflee, under the 13% per cant m&mi-^
tloo, under a 25 per cent reduotlon (ffirge
quajptities of these goods will not eoioe in.
If they are able to do th«rt. they will have
weakenadi my oaee.

Mr. BAVIN. That is asking tui to ptove
a neerative, wbl€b jkhi kmow It is not tight
to do.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I know
i*^ will be difficult to do; but tbe <hon. gen-
tleman is sometimes able to prove a nega,-
tive.

Mr. DAVIN. I eay ftbat accotrdlng to the
rules of logic it is iin>pos6ib]e.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I invite
ttM attention of the House to another thing.
The full benefit of ^he Fielding tariff, which
was imtroduced into tbls House last jrear.
will noit be experienced till after the Ist
of July, and will not be experienced at
onoe; for, while we were pledged to re-
form the tariff aiid liffh'««n the burdeais
of taxation on the people of the country,
we were business men, we knew what we
had to recognize tJie condiltiooa created
under hon. genttlemen oppoelte^ and we
would not throw tMs coumtry into a oom-
mercl'al panic, but wiould reach our eoad by
9afe mo&va, and we believe it will be reach-
ed with perfect safety to those who liave in-
vested their money In. industrial under-
takings. Now, what do I find'? I find, from
a taflble 1 hiad preipared la me, taking t3ie
Impoait^tlon of goods' esutered for cooBiujnp-
tion into Canada under the reciprocal tariff,
and the duty collected thereon during the
Biz mon^his ending 31st of December,
1 897, that the abateooiemt of duty under the
12% per cent reductioin amounted to $521,-
451 during the s4x months. If you double
that, you get the year's operations as fairly
as we can estimate ^heim now. I think
you will be safe in doubling' it, because tuade
does not all at once find Its new channel. The
EngHfthman Tealized that this was an open-
ing greater than he hiaa enjoyed before, but
In many lines the bed to make bis arrav^sfi-
ments, and so dutdn^g the first few mootha
you could not expect the trade to flow as
freely thpouigh this new channel as it will
later. Any business man can undei«tand
that. But if you double that trade of the
first silx montihs., what would tbat ro«an? It
would me*n that besides the reduiitlci ifl the
burden of taxation «h the people, owing to
our reduced tariff, owing to Otk- general
lowering' of dntles on the greet bulk of th*
items, there is the further reductions under
tfrfe preferential clause. I say double that
and you will hav«i $1,042,000 of relieif. That
is the relief in one year, undeir a reduction of
12%^ per cent. I ve/hture to «jay that theahe
Isr not a iwan wfco will not aAnritthifrt wtth
this current of trade now eetabllehed, and
with the impettoa wftiich 26 per cent will
give it «» «g«iiinet 12% per oftot, a rsdocttoci
of two mUliooi dollars of taxktion will r4-
preaent tlie reduction rtn tli© Itn ports under
tteat reolprdcal tarltf after a year fttom neact
July.
An hoa. MEMBSw p«v/itj •♦'•rtts •

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Jm, m-

duction. I say that under the 25 pei* cent
reduction, in the face of the figures I have

giveoQi, in tihe face of events that have actu-
ally tnanspired, it is small hazard to predict
that w4ien this preteirentlal tariff is in full
torce for ai year, with tihe 25 per cent redue-
tion, there will be a reduction, not on the
old pates of duty of the late Government, but
on the reduced general tariff rates of the n«w
Government that M^ill equal three mdlllon do)-
<«rs; and I ask any hon. gentlemiau in this
House who ventures to say that there is no
i^forniAtion in this tariff, that the pledge of
the Liberal party to reduce the burdens of
the people has not been carried out, how,
when this takes place as we think it will, Ue
can hope to maintain his position. What
doesi it amount to ? Det me Illustirate. W'hat
is the equivalent of thiat reduction in the tax-
ation of the people, so that we may grasp
the amount of reduction that has been made?
It will be equivalent to taking ten mllUoe
dollars worth of imported goods, on wbidh
30 per eent duty has been levied, and tran*-
ferring that ten million doliare to the free
list. That is what ft means.

Mr. CLANCY. Does the hon. gentleoaan
meon by that statement tbal there will be
A. loss to the revenue of three mllMon dol-
lars.

Tlie MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. There
win be a loss to the revenue on that ac-
count, but thai loss will be made up by the
Btlmuluc^ given to trade, and the wealth we
hope to put Into the people's pockets, which
will enable thearf to buy more goods, and on
& larger scale than they are doing to-day —
buy millions , of dollars more of goods and
p*y tor tkem. They wifl» have the aio«ey
to do Jt. And by giving that etiraulue to
trade, every manufactory In the country w4H
be running full time and over-time, too.
That is what we hope to Be».

I have been a little tlresiome, I am awaro,
on tjhat subject, and I now want to toueh
upon another point. My hon. friends oppo-
site, the leader of the O.pposition and the
exi-Flnance Minister, said luat session, wbef»
the tariff was Introduced, that it would have
to be changed. They said that it filled them
top with 'humiliation. . Canada had been
hvmilia]ted. They told us what an awkward
position we were putting ourselves in.

Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Hear, hear.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. They told
ns how Ignorasit we were with ^eferience to
that matter. ,.,■,

. Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Hear^' ]^i

" The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Ard the
same mournful spirit is upon fchem yet. 1
could not help thInMng, as 1 gated npon my
hotJ. frtend, of the lines j

"Talk not of grief

"Till thou tiaiBt seiptl the tears of bearded
men." '

Their grief was so gr^rt over the humilli^-
tioa which they said was tar«xugrht upon

Canada, so gnat at our h«viiDig deceived and
deluded the g^^eat Brittoh pttbllc.

Sir GHARLES TUPPER. Hear, hear.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. That wae
the lan^age of the bon. genttetnan la»t
year. He Is BtlU sad amd lonely In hto grief.
Sat let me aak him to look at a bright plc-
tniw, lor I haite to aee grief w«steid. The
hon. gentleman Is waflttliig It. Let me ask
him to look at a bright picture— not a fancy
picture but a tnue one. Let him transport
himMlf, in bto mind, to ithe great' tturobblng
centre ol the Empire a year ago or less —
Loiidion. Let him graze upon the scene tak-
ing place there. Let him look upon the
hundreds of thousands of Englis'h people
and British citizens front all parts of the
world assembled there. Let Wm look upoii»
the mlghti«et of eairtb's soveredgns, as she
paswee along those streets, lined with lov-
ing subjects, with "God blees you my peo-
ple" lalUing from beir ginadous lips, aod ]«t
htm llatem to tfae responaee from <Vtm bund-
reds of thousands of loyal eubjecxs "Gort save
our gracious Queen." Let him rontempjUite
that Boesie, as she winds her way to give
grateful thanks to tbe King of Kings, vcho
has so abundantly blessed her and her peo-
ple, ahd let blm grasp the fact that in that
supreme moment tlie thoughts of the Eng-
lisii people were sitirred as tibey never hud
been stirred before. Who can conceive It
possible that otbar thoughts or subjects of
mhuor impoirtaoce could erveo' find ft resting
place in that scene. I ask him to gaie on
that scene. But eomptured as the people
were, emtraneed as they were, with the sight
of their beloved sovereign, there was another
sight in that procaaelon that also arrested
their attention. It was when they saw the
carriage that bore Wilfrid Laurler, Gam^da's
Prime MlndiBtter amd rapsieseiatiatlve. Eng-
land's heart had been touched as it had ne-
ver been touched by any colony bel^re be-
cause of that very tariff that the hon. gentle-
man fiMiIs aelhained amd hnmlliliatea tSiat: tbe
Parll«ument of Canada sihonld have passed.

Sir CHARLES TUPP2R. They dW not
realise the <|eoeptlon that bad been prac-
ticed.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. There,
again, the bon. gentlemajn refhses to be com-
forted. "They did not realize "the decep-
tion that had heem poracticed" — so he told
us last night. Then the hundrAde of fbou-
sande of EkigUs^men, the statesmen, the
editors of the world's great newspapers, all
the Itterary meBi, all the dwellers tn that
land axe, according to tb«i bon. genttomtan,
so obtnae, so devoid of bitelUgence tnat
tlieiy could not uindeffftaind that tariff, every
particuiar of which, no fur as the reciprocal
clause was concecmed was pnblteihed not
only ki their dallies but to their other new«-
papers. And yet tbe boo. gpentlepaan says

that they oouM not undenttand It. Why,
wha't contempt the hon. gantleflnan is pour-
ing upon himself and upon the ex-Minister
of Fhkanoe (Mr. Foster). They spent hours
last session, yes, days and weeks, before t^ie
Fidme ' Minister want to England, demon-
strating to their own satisfaction, that it
was a fraud and pointing out to the fingltarb
people that they would get nothing from it.
Did not tbe English people believe what
they' said ?

SlT CHARLES TUPPER. They did wbe»
they bad it from the lips of the Finamoe
Minister (Mr. Fielding), the confession made
at Sheffield that no preference was given.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Mar.
Fielding). No such confession was made.

Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I can prove
to the bon. geutleiman out of bils owm mootb
that at the banquet at Sheffield b« feld tbfit,.
though they had attempited to give a prefer-
ence they bad fall^.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. The hon.
gaotlemian kouows that be l» barksqulng
what I said, and If he will read the words
they will prove It.

Sir CHARLES TUPPEE. I can establisfe
what I have kald. Than It was that the-
Bnglleh people found that they bad beesv
deceived.

Tbe MiNISTBE OF CUSTOMS. It we^
are to accept the etateanent of the hon. gen-
tleman, though I would not want to doit
for, bis own sake, all we a<re led to believe
is that the English did not believe wOien
be saild It, but they did believe It when the
Finance Minister said It. I spare htm tbat.
If ha had been right In his statement, the
English people would have believed h4m.
Tbsy, no dooibt, nsad what he ssiW, xead «4l
his stTlcturee upon the Finance Minister, but
they saw what utter nonsense they w«ee.
Do you suppose that tibese mem In England,
whose goods have <been coming ovw and
getting the benefit of tbis. preferenc€>-r-

Slr (5HARLES TUPPBB. Yes, to tbe-
tune Of a falling off of £171,900 for the first
tdur months _of tts op^jratSon,

The MINISTER OF GUST QMS. The hon..
gentleman must remember that £171,000 ie
not fuch a veiry greet deal m the tmmeiuK
commerce of Great Britain. And does the
hon. gentleman mean to say that statements
of succeeding periods will not balance that
and mow ? I need not argue that with tSie
hon. gentleman. I know hie ability, and I
know^ tihat he knows better than he Issaytog
now. The bon. gentleman- says tbat we
made a great mistake. Th«o^, agrain, grtet
and sadness oveorwhelraed bltt, beeauiw.
When we gave tihte pretereratfal tairlff we did
not demand better teims for Ganadift on
the «!xp«<rt<rwe are sending into tUat coun-
try.

*i!i

■T

I ■

Sir OUABLES TUPPEB. Hear, bear. The
mistake ol your lives, as you will find out.

Tie MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Well, I
{frant tbo hon. geiatlemttn ttiiat we did not
•tipulate when eonoewiiiOD was being girein
to Qreait Bnitatn tbat they muet g4v« ua a
reitarn tor it. The bon. gentleman knows,
I believe, that we couM not maintain tbe
tariff we (have dow and get that oonoeestoin
from Britain. He knows that Britieih pub-
lic oplniloin would have to be eduea/bed before
tbat could be done. If theee hon. gentle-
rnan take the poeltlon that we ought to have
sought a preferential tariff at all coeta,
tbey must meaia that oiur tainUt should have
been 90 reduced ae to make such an arrange-
ment poaaible even with British public opin-
ion as it is to-day, amd, according to the
principles that they themselves bad laid
down, this would mean such a reduction aa
tO| make it difficult for many of our manu-
facturers to live at all.

Sir CHARLES TUPPEB. No.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. And I
wiafa Aiim to rise boldly and accept tbe lofi;!-
eal TOsnAtiB of his own leeMoaiaxg. Mr.
Chamberlain's Btatemente hav« been read
time and again, and I need not take up the
time of the Housei by reading them. But
gemtlomen will i«mem.ber hie state-
as to what they would demand from
us In return for conoeesion of preferential
trade. And the hon. gentleman says that
Prime Minister did not do his duty tx)

hon.
ment

the

GaoadA In that he did not urge then and
them the granting of this preferential aiv
ran^ament. The Prime Minister kneiw tbat
he couM not do it with any hope of success.
That even if they had been willing to grant
it, they would have demanded terms, they
would have demanded coiKesirlans that he
eould not poeedbly have given in the present
state of the trade . of the country. And
while I am on that podat, I would ask tbe
hon gentieman in all sincerity to explain
one sentence of his. I have beec charged
with uttering siome words, tlrnt I myself did
not realize. I would fain believe that one
Aenteitoe tbat tell from the hon. gentleman's
lips last night was a mdstake— when he sta-
ted that the Prxnie Minister of this Domin-
ion was bound — ^he did not »ay to whom
— when he went over to England, to oppose
preferemflal trade in the interests ot the
United States. To make a charge like
that " '■

Sir OHARLIH TUP PER. Does the hon.
gentl^OSan wish me to answer him now ?

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Yes, gite
us your authcolty.

Sir CHAELI5S TUPPBR. I will answer
the hoo. gemtleman. The statement I made
was this, and I repent It: Tlw action which
tho Prime Mtnislier took on t*i«t occasion
was uttealy mt vaHanoe with the pledge

he had solemnly given to the electors of O&n-
ada a» to what he would do U he obtained
power, that one of the first acts of his
Qoveniment would be to send a comonls-
sion to England to negotiate preferential
trade with the Qovemment of Lord Salis-
bury. There is the further fact that as soon
as be got to England, before he had a word
of discussion with any person, except the
proposition made by the Duke of Devon-
shire opening the way to carry out thils very
project, he took the strongest ground against
preferential trade, declaring that it would
Involve protection which had been a curse
to Canada and would be a curse to Eng-
V-^ndi. This proved to me that before hs
left Canada, he had changed his mind, that
he had detoranlned to abandon, to violate the
solemn pledge he had given to the people
of this country. And taken in connection
with tbe tact, that, in the struggle with the
hon. gentleman and myself, he had the
sympathy of the Dnlted States^ the people
there hoping he would oome into power, I
could arrive at no conclusion but the one I
stated. I say I cannot arrive &t any other
ooncltislon until the hon. gentleman gilves
what he has never ventured yet to give to
this House and to the people of this coun-
try, the reason for this volte face, the
reason for this sudden change of the hon.
gentleman from a pledged supporter —

Some hon. MEMBEBS. Order.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKEB. The hon. gen-
tleman has permission to answer a qusetiion,
but he cannot enter inito a dtocuM^kxn.

Sir CHARLES TUPPER, If the hon. gem^
tleman who has asked ^e, who has chaK
lenged me — -

The MINI "^ OF CUSTOMS. I asked
you a quesi

Sir CHABa.^ "^PPEE. And I am an-
sweiiiig it, and e I take my seat

The MINISTEK jF CUSTOMS. The hon.
genttentftin is abusdng the courtesy of tht
Chair. I only asked the hon. gentleman a
queatDdu.

SHr CHABLES TUPPER. And I am an-
swering it.

The MINISTEB OF CUSTOMS. No, the
hon. gentleman did not answer it.

Sir CHARLES TUPPEB. He is afraid to
hear the truth.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER. I think tiM
hon. gentleman, having answered tbe ques-
tion, has no right to go on and make a
speech.

Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I was asked to
Justify my statement.

Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKB5R. I think the
hon. geO'tleman is abutng the permjssiioo
tbat bn» bevG given him to answer a q^ics-
tfon.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. I am
sorry. I do not wish at all to show the

■llght(

oppiosi

Som(

The
hon. I

Mr. ]
him, w

Th*
gentlen
upon tl

SlB C

pared t

The »
derstoo
Afinlste
terests
him to
I thoug
to say,
and th4
withdra

Sir CJ
hon. ge
hon, ge
statemei
It now.

The M
gantleme
Boning b
self thai
Let it
that he
understo
ed it by
there wa
concluslo
statemen
with ref«
did, who
the hon.
me, that
House, a
at all at
Sir CH
better no

The a
House is
matter,
to mainti
on this s
that pref'C
every one
given to 1
he o^tatoi
and in th
to point
this, that
by tbla
been'plact
land to oc
a preferw
market,
passed by
the Brttlj
'9 no lav

;i s.

*:i;

Bllgbtest dkioourte«y to the bon. Kwttoman
opposite.

Some tion. MEMBERS. Oh, oh.

Th« MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. Will any
hon. gentlemen say I have done so ?

Mr. FOSTER. You did not want to hoar
him, when he w«a trying to answer you.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. The noo.
gentleman placed a very serloua statement
upon the "Hansard."

SlD CHAfiLES TUPPER. And I am pre-
pared to Justity It.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. II I vm-
derstood him arlgiht, he said that the Prime
Ml(n>lat«ir was boumd in some way, In the in-
teresfts of the Unltsd States, as I understood
him to say, t-o parties in the United States.
I thought he had said more than he meant
to say, that he had «cald It in a sudxleai heat,
and that he might wl«h to explahi It or
withdraw it.

Sir CHARLES TUPPER. No, no. The
hon. gentleman said no such a thing. The
hon. gentlem<an asked me to Justify the
statement I made, and I am prepared to do
It now.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. The hon.
gemtleman has entered upon a course oif rea-
soning by which, he says, he comvlnced him-
self that »ometihlng was done. Yery well.
Let It go at that. But what- 1 said was,
that he had made a direct statement so I
understood him, and now he says he reach-
ed it by certain conclusions. I asked him if
theire was nort a contradiction between the
concluslonB he had reached' and a broad
statenaent that that was the case. Now,
wltlh reference to what the Prime Minlstetr
did« what hoM been charged against him by
the hon. geotleman who has Just Interrupted
me, that has been up time and again in the
HotUNB, and I do not intend to go into that
at all at this time.

Sir CHARLES TUPPER. . No you bad
better myt.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. The
House is thoroughly conversant witb that
matter. But leaving that question, I deelne
to maintain the posdilfon that has been token
on this Bide of the House with neference to
that pref«rential tariff. I vem.ture to say that
every one in Canada would hall a preference
given to US in the British market, If It could
be obtatned on terms advantageous to both,
and In the Interests of both. What I wont
to point out to hon. genttemer oppoMte is
this, that, by tih© preferential tariff enacted
by tbta Goveammen*, t4io«|0j no law ban
been "placed upon tife Stattrte-book of Eng-
land to compel t?ie people of Kngland to g^ve
a preferemce to Canadian produsts, M their
market, the vftry fnet that that Act was
paased by this C«nad*an Parliament touched
the British heart, and to^day, though tihere
is no law compeiiMng It, they are, of their

own free will, glTlnp a preference to Can-
ada. But, Sir, our legislation did more; 1ft
accomplished the denunciation of the Ger-
man and Bedglan treaties, which, so far a«
we can Judge, would have gone on lor many
long years further, 11 action had not been
taken by Canada. But the hon. gentleman
takes exception to that. He says that the
right hon. gentleman the Prima Minister
and the Government and Panliament of Can-
ada had nothing to do with the deiaunclatilon
of those treaties. Well, It i» a strange tblng
that the E^ngllsh newspapers, the English
public, diS'tingulshed citizens of the British
Empire, even In her remote colonies, recog-
nised that our action here was the i^rime
moving cause that brou^bt about the de-
nunelatlon of tboee tratles. I think it I« in
vain for the hon, gentleman to say that the
Prime Minister, the Government and Par-
liament of Canada, are to have no credit
for that reenlt. Why. Sir, in the Coneerva-
ttve papere pubUsheu' in this city, no knger
ago than the early part of this month, I find ■
a report of an Interview with Cecil Rhodes,
a man whom, I tfhifcnik, hon. gentleman oppo-
site will a4mlt has t>een an Important figure
In itihe btstory o4 South Africa, and this is
what he says: .

"Mr. Cecil Rhodieo anrlved at Madeira to-
•' ctoy. In the course of a recent converea-
" tlon he spoke wanmly of the services Oan-
" ada had rendered to the BmplTe by com-
" pelllng the British Government to clear the
" Geiman and Belgian treat<ee out of the
" way of future Interlmperlnl co-operation.
'• Those treattee formerly were in his way in
*' bis tariff arrangements in South Africa.
" "Sir Wilfrid Laurder," he sKfd. "has now

gat rid of them for us and the whole of
"tihe Empire. >•»

That, at any rate, was the view of a dls-
tlngulsihed man from an outlying Britisih
posBeestoo.

Mr. DA YIN. Tiwt is on opinion advene
to the policy of the Government.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. What do
I find in a special cabte published in the
Montreal "Star," a paper that Is not, I
believe, pamtdcularly trienddy to the AdmCn-
latratlon or its acts ? It is dated from
London, England, and is as follows : —

"The crises In Cuba and CIitosL almoett 411
" the papers here.

"The Budget of the Hon. Mr. Fielding,
" Milnlster of Finance, Oanada, attracts a
" good deal of attention. I heard a Cooser-
" vatlve member of Parliament say this
" morning: 'Our Mitotetera jaw, Jaw, Jaw,
" and do little but Jaw about tfie unity of
" the Empltie, but Canada keeps on d<^g,

I said that i^ acticm of tdlie C'otiadlan Par-
liament in offering those terms to the Bri-
tish people, had touched the British heart,

,1 HI

I :^

'■''■' i

and tbat led tlMcn o( their own motloo to
make Inqulrlea reBpectlng th« pioducts ot
this Dominion. Wtiot do we h«wix from
■hipperft and merctiants ? To-day in the
principal markets Inquiries are made tor
Canadian goodfi; a trial is given them, and
the result la aaem In the widely increaaeid
exports to the English markcit. Left me
^iTe the House a statement of our export*
to Grent Britain during the Omt elx moothc
of the preserot flacal year. We find that
onr exports, a« compared with the corree-
poudimg period of the lest flscol year, in-
creased by the large sum of $22,500,688.
That is our total exports for the six mouths
over the oorreapondlng six mooths of the
last year. I thtak it is a fairer way to
leave out the foreign products, and if we
do so, we find that during tl>oeei six months
our home products exported to Great Bri-
tain srhow an inoreaae of $10,287,864 dur-
ing the six mooths of the preaeotvt over tto«
correnpondimg six monthsr of tbe previous
year, which itself wae a large year for eat-
porte. Where do I flmd the InereaBes ? Take
the flgurps. Prodiucts of the flsheorlAs, in-
crease, f 32,664; pnoditicta of the toreat, in-
crease, f3,348,299; aiitaials and thedr pro-
duce, Increase, *%564,942; agricultural prio-
duets, IncreBoe. 18,640.184; manufacturea.
Increase, $782,759. The export* of pa-oduc©
of tbe mines to G^reat Britain decreased dur^
Ing the six months by $108,648, and tbere
wi|8 also a decrease la the exports of miscel-
laneous artlctes to tihe exten* of $22,216.
Oedrnctlng these decrecuses, the Inonease in the
other Hue of home produote during the first
«i-?. moctlhe of the preaeH't fiscal year over
the correeponding six months of the pre-
v*ou» year amoiuoited^ to $19,287,864. I de-
sire to call atteotloo to the fact that while
our exports have sihown an Increase dur-
ing those six months of nearly $20,000,000
as compared with the corresponding six
motvtlhs of tflie previous year, the total im-
portu into Great Britain during that time
had decreased nearly $90,000,000. Can any-
thing speak louder for the po«itiooi that
Canada has taken in the British market
even in the short space of time our tarliff
has been in operation ?

Mr. LANDBRKIN.
pr^efeirertlal trade.

That is very good

The AfTNI8TER OP CUSTOMS. I had
not intendtd to occupy the tlm/e of the
House so long, but the readJjig of tiu> ijables
took a longer time than 1 had anticfp&ted.
I have mot attempted to deal with the
flnaoclal part of the statement made by
tbe Minister of Finance and offffl- any orl-
tldsm thereon, for the Minister of Trade
and Commerce, In his very fair an«[ able
crltlci«un, ga-ve am explane4;ion and defence
of the admftrisitmtloai of IMIb Government,
which may disappoint some of our friend*
who may have (anticipated th«it gsneateir re-

scltfl would have been attained^ but wbleh
will enable them to see clearly that the
Government, so far as wa« eonstotent with
the welfare an4 prosperity of the Domin-
ion, have endeavoured, eo far as In tbem
lies, to economically carry on the adniin-
iHtratlon of the flmancee of the country,
while they are at the same time advancing
its prosperity.

Mr. DAVIN. What about sugar t

The MINISTER OP CUSTOMS. It is Just
an element in the policy that ha* been In-
troduced by tWs Government, that of bind-
ing togettier the colonies as well as the mo-
ther country. I would say to hon. gentle-
m«in opposite that I have never claimed
credit, nor has this Government ever claim-
ed credit, that in onr preferential trade as
regards England or English cnlonie* we
have acted siolely end aione to bemeflt lihe
motherland or the colonies. We are look-
ing after our own Interests as well as de-
veloping the interests of the motherland.
The reductions in our burdens give advan-
tage to Canada, and the prelerence accord-
ed to England is an advantage given to her
by Canada, and the same remark applie*
to the West Indies. What ditl the leader
of the Opposition soy with respect to ttue
preewnt sugar tariff 7 He declared we had
adopted the right poMcy, that he had urged
It upon us last year, that under the tariff
am it existed our West Indian commerce
had been destroyed. 1 was unable a* the
time to find or to remember where the bon.
genitleman l<aet year made tha;t recommenda-
tiom. He did not give us 1±e time when he
made it or the pagre where It could be found,
and I am told by an hon. gentleman who
has looked tkrongh '•Eajnaarti" that he fell-
ed In the hasty glance made a* it* page* to
find the bon. gientleman's eitatememt. I
would be sorry to say tha* he did not make
it, but he did not give the Honae the Re-
ference.

Sir CHARLES T UPPER. The hon. gen
tleman's colleague can tell Mm.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE. The hon. \
gentleman cannot now tell when he did Jt, \
because he did not do it.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. If the
hon. gentleman did so, I. will be willing to
look It up in "Hansard." My memory
wholly fails to recall It, if the hon. gen-
tleman ever proposed anything such as we
ppopose. I say I accept hi* word, but I
have no remembrance of it. But if I accept
his wopd, I ask him In what position, he
place* the esx-Mlni&ter of Finance and tjie
party who supported him. We left the su-
gar tariff last year on raw sugar as we
found it left by the previouB Govsnansat;
and it is t&e question of raw sugar aa4 mot
the refined that affects the West India trade.

Mr. FOSTER. Will my hon. friend say

If the
lUing to
meroory
■m. gau-
h as we
but I
I accept
Ion . be
nd tbe
the an-
as we

aiL4 mot
[a trade,
end »a7

that the question of refined sugar does not
affect the West Indie* 1

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. T«l,
both affect the West Indies; but the qii»-
tlon at l»«ue la the raw 8ug«r. The bt.n.
geiitlemttu knows that; it he does not know
It, lie ought to know It; but I suppose tt
Is poBHilbte that he does not know, because
his leader told us last night tba;t under the
tariff he had ruined the West Indlia com-
merce.

Sfr CHARLES TUPPBR. Ho.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. WeJl, It
was undeir the tariff as we found It amd
left It. All we did was to peduce the duty
cm the rsflned sugar, the protection to this
refiner, 14 cents on the hiindired pounds,
We lett the duty on raw sr.gar Just as It
was, and ft Is on the raw sugar that we are
giving a prefeinenee to the West India plant-
ers, which the hon. geaitlemian admits will
be a boon to them, but not to them alone,
because he consldears tihat It will revive a
trade whleh will be profltabl© to the mari-
time provlnceet and to all part9 of the Do-
mindyon. Now, I have spoken on sugar, as
tibe honi. gentleniian afiked me to do, and I
trust I have made myealf plain. •

Mr. BENNETT. Tell us about the Eng-
lish postage you anaiounoed at Toronto.

The MINISTER OF CUSTOMS. The Bng-
llsb poetiagie is eomertihllng on the same line;
It Is comlnig. The hon. gemtleiman has al-
luded to that in the House before. H<> npoke,
I t^ink, of myself as having been treated
somewhat unfairly, as be supposed by the
Postmaster General. Well, I have' not felt
very badly over that matter. I am told by
people who were pnesent that when the an-
nouncement of that reduction in ESnglish
postage was made, It was well received by
the audience. In fact, I was at the meeting
mysedf. I am told tb>at the announcement
was <m«die in clear and stentorian tonas, and
that the whole MaSeey Hall audience heard
it. Being myself an eye witness, I cft.n say
that the statement vras made in all giood
faith, and that the effect on the audience
w>a« electrical. It showed me that, although
the PostmastM- Goneral has perhaps been de-
layedr in the consummiatlon ot his wishes tor
» short time, e» we have been in our desire
to confine our tariff preference to the British
Empire, yet cKa heart of the Canadian
people was with him in that IiapSrial-Oana-
dian tnoveiiaent; and when tliat comee
about, then the hon. gentleman 'can liave
the batistactton of knowing that still an-
otheir vact has, tihrongto tfhe instirtimenhatlty
of the Canadian GoYennment, un*^ still
more dosedy and liound more firmly to-
ttether tlie mot»«'labd And thte thl^ greatest
V* u6>T poesesHions.

hon. gentlemen would like to hear me
speak, 1 would like to oblige them, though I
must ©lose my remarks, tor I certainly wlH
not continue tiiem beyond the dlniner hour.
liSt me note, in conclusion, that hon. gentle-
men make Herlous charges against us. They
charge that we have not fulfilled a single
promise that we made to the people — that
we have failed in all our pledges. Well, Sir
that is a serious charge. Is it true? Do
the hon. gentieinen mean In earn^t to make
a charge of that kind ? After the figures
I have given, taken from official records,
will they say that this Government have not
been true to the pledge they gave to the
people of this country to reduce the burden
of taxation. In the light of the figures
given by the IMnAnco Minister, and dwelt
upon more In detail by the Minister of
Trade and Commerce, will they not say that
In many of the branches of the public ser-
vice economies have been practiced and re-
trenchments made ? We promised that there
would be Increased prosperity, and do they
mean to say that increased prosperity Is not
In the country to-<lay ? The Prime Minis-
ter, two or three years ago, when standing
before a distinguished audience of commer-
oial men, after having listened to a vast air-
ray of statistics read by the ex-Mlnlster of
Finance, In order to convince them that they
were prosperous, safd to them r "If you
put m© and my party in power, we will not
need to use this long list of statistics to
prove that you are prosperous, for you will
feel it in your pockets," Is that tme ? Hon.
gent)tonen have said that it was by an acci-
dent that we attained power — retemtng, I
suppose, to a question that bad created a
sharp division among the people of Can-
ada — a question Involving religious feelings,
feelings which are the deepest In the hearts
ot us all, and which ought to be recognizeid
- with charity and forbearance, and with a
disposition to grlve others the same palylli^e
of liberty of oonsclence that we demand for
oursBlves. When those feelings were stirred
up and aroused In the country, and a great
deal ot discontent was excited among the
pelople, tone hon. First Minister said : "I be-
lieve that if I were entrusted with power,
I would be alble, by different means from
those employed by our opponents, by means
that would commend themselves to all the
falr-niinded men ot this country, to bring
about a peaceable amd happy solution of thte
question." Where is It to-d«y ? W«s tbe
promise kept ? I sajr that if there was noth-
ing else tliat stood to the crefMt of the right
hon gentleman who leads this Government,
that alone entitles him to a renewal of the
confldeiiw <4 the people of thiis country.
What mono did we promise ?

M*. BERGERON. The coal duty.

The MINISTER OP CUSTOMS. We pro-
mised tbat we wonkl wipe out the Fraxt-
cfilse Act. We are at It now, though op-

«a

poMd by hon. fentleoMD oppoatt*. Tbty
dMiiADid ecomomy on onr part. We proposwd
to repoal t^mt Act wbicta, it It warn c«inrtod
out every ya&r — am it ooi^t o b» in Jtwtlc*
to the peopl« of the Domlnioa — would en-
tall mininna of dolhim of expense. These hon.
gentleimeii call upon ne to economtae, and
them try to force thait Act upon u», the
carrying out of which, at It ought to be
carried out, would entail m!lli<nw of doUara
of espeiiee. We promdMd a piebincite to as-
certain the viewa of the peopJe on the ques-
tion of prohibition and Intend to oarrsr out
thart protniae. We want also to readjust the
boundaries of the eonetitueneics and remedy
the Iniquity perpetrated by hon. gentlemen
opposite In that regard. We havei not taken
up tha/t matter yet. WMl these hom. gentle-
men, when we dio, give us the assiktaiice
whl<;h the leader of (the Opposiltloo saya theiy
always giv<e na otki the other aide ? We have
not beeii perfect, we have not been able to
accomplish everything. In our tariff revi-
sion we bave not been able to do all that
every oioe eixpectield, but bound as we Are to
iook to all intereela, r^Ko^izing that we
had a couTKtry to goveim under a crwwl*tion of
thlngw that was preralllng througb a coutse
of elghteeoi years' legislation of hooi. gentle-
men opposite, we felt it was our bounden
duty, as statesmen, to see that while light-
ening the burdesi of tajcatlon we were care-
ful to preserve the beet inteoesta of the
country. That, I believe, we have done. It
may be that we aball be able to do more in
tbe future th<an in the past in the way of
economy, but as my hon. colleague tbe Min-
ister of Trade aad Commerce pointed out, a
kirge part of our expenditure is fixed and
uncontrollable, and la due to de4)t« Incurred
by hon. gentlemen opposite. As regards the
smaller portion, the controllable expendi-
ture, we hope we may be able to effect econ-
omies perftapa in a measure greater than we
have accoanplished up to the present.

What about tbe eoal

Mr. BERGERON,
duties ?

The MINISTER OF C08TOMS. The coal
duties were lowered, aa were the dnitiaa on
almost everything alse tn t&e .tariff.

Au hon. member: Wtoat about biscuita ?

The MINISTER OF CtTSTOMS. Aii hon.
gentleman says, what about biscuits. You
may Bometlmes find in newspapero ttiat are
not careful for their reputation statements
and Inslnuatioins unwortby ano untrue, but
when a memiber of PiarHament ventures to
Itiiinuate here a lie that has been published
in t«ie Tory newspapers, and, I aupfpose, will
be republished timo and again, n«mely, that
ttiero wvMt in the revfaioa of the t»rlff an
advantage given to certain lines of manu-
facture in wbkftt I at ooie ttme was inter-

ested, which I at one tlmai oiaouiged— wtaMi
I find an hon. member ao lost to decency,
then Innguage fails ms to adequately de-
scribe his conduct and Iteep within parlte-
mentary bounds. All I can say la, look aft
the tariff and you will find that these arti-
cles weira imported, in targpe quantities, un-
der the preferential clause, during the pasA
year, and will be imported much mo«« in tbe
future, and you will find that thcae articles,
the dnjfieB om which were not increased in
the Kenerul tariff and are greatly reduced
under the prefereinttlal clause, stand in ti»
same position as many other articles, so that
instead «)f extra protection bedng given to
th«m, the protection la greatly reduced. I
never care to tonch upon matters that con-
cern a business In which I was engaged my-
self. I can allow newspapers that care not
for their reputation to rei^eat and reiterate
thedT falsu statementa and charges, but I did
not expeot that a member of Parliament,
who hat access to the records of PaTllameot,
would throw out an Insinaiation such as has
been thrown at the present time.

Let me aay this. In the minute or two at
my disposal. I have shown bow we bave
redeemed our pledges. We all know that
cental n predictions we^e made by hon. gen-
tlemen opposite beforo ine last election. We
all know that predictions were made by
them which we may consider as their
pledges, if they were honourable raeni, and
believed what they said. What did they
promise would happen 11 the Liberal party
came into powerr ? Thejr predicted that
trade would stagnate. Well, Mr. Speaker,
every transportation line on land and water,
endorsed by every bank and clearing houae,
proclaims that prophecy as falseu They pre-
dicted that lactorlen would be closed and
manufacturing hidiustriee crushed. To-day
the thousands of tactoples flstabWWhed
throughout tbis Dominion and the many
new ones that are springing up give flat con-
tradiction to thai prediction. They predicted
that our artisans and mechnmlcs would walk
the etieeta In vain begging for work and no
work to be had. Sir, the electric llshts bias-
ing in many of the factorlefl throughout
this broadi Dominion, all through the long
hours of the night, declaie not ooly that our
artteans, a^ider Liberal mute, are not oecddng
for work and unable to oflbtaln it, but that
they are oonetantly employed and that more
arttaans have tx) be found to man those fac-
torfes, night as well as dajf , to order to kesp
op bo the demand© of trade. tW contrast
the promlisKia with the performaawes of tiM
LiteraJ party. I would place before them
their own predictions and the absolute fall*
nm of tkam predlctlana, and by the ui>-
answerable logic of «act» the LRjeral party
at *ny rate, may wtU hft iDCffvtenit to aibid*.

■■■■I

Kl'